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@Suzuteo, I didn't mention any warlord traits. You can teleport him with a Starstriders stratagem. Although if you could give him a warlord trait he might be a good way to get those new buffs where you need them, even if he's very fragile at 2 wounds.

Also, am I the only one thinking of using these dark elf cold one riders to convert up the new raiders? As much as I love the new sculpts, $210 CAD for 9 (under 200pts) is so over the top I just can't justify it. Not sure if the scale would work or how easy they would be to mix with ranger parts but if you converted 2 boxes of these you would have 9 for $80 CAD plus whatever the cost of the appropriate bases is.

Oh. That's why people have been talking about stuffing Enginseers into their army.

Though I did mock out a turn at home, and I think you actually only will get good use out of two of the Holy Order WLTs.

Updated list with bomber:

I thought you can give a WLT to a named character but it must be the special trait of their subfaction or the trait specified for them in their codex.

Pomguo wrote:
I thought you can give a WLT to a named character but it must be the special trait of their subfaction or the trait specified for them in their codex.

Yeah, usually it is specified. I am not so sure about the sidegame characters though...

Also, the Canticles are not Forge World locked, so what I said about giving it to a Knight applies. +1S or -1 to hit within 9" Knights. Lol...

My take on all this is that multi subfaction play became a lot stronger.

If you have a warlord in a secondary detatchment you can effectively select which canticle you want reguardless of your main detatchment.

The new warlord traits are really strong and go some way to closeing the gap on cawl castles.

Custom forgeworlds seem underwhelming barring very specific small detatchments

The fix on ruststalkers and corpuscarii are both significant

Pteraxi are too overcosted to be credible

The raiders are the stand out new unit. Sulphur hounds are ok

Stratoraptors cool but a little pricey the transvectors are a fail only transporting 6 models is waek letting them transport secutarii is nice but secutarii are minimum 10 models - so do they proof read, the bombers seem overcosted

Overall it seems like admech got a needed power up and might even be top tear


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Suzuteo wrote:

Pomguo wrote:
I thought you can give a WLT to a named character but it must be the special trait of their subfaction or the trait specified for them in their codex.

Yeah, usually it is specified. I am not so sure about the sidegame characters though...

Also, the Canticles are not Forge World locked, so what I said about giving it to a Knight applies. +1S or -1 to hit within 9" Knights. Lol...

Admech wording is unusual
Cawl warlord static psalm only no relic
Larsen van de grauss any warlord trait a mars character could take no relic
Daedalosus any non forgeworld specific warlord trait no relic

The new warlord trait strategem can be used however the new warlord traits specify not named characters for this reason.

Prime hermeticon could be ok on larsen monitor malevolous seems the other obvious choice


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheArchmagos wrote:
Not to detract from the current discussion on the new models, but the new rules for Mars got me thinking about Larsen Vandergrass from Elucidian Starstriders Killteam. Forgive me if this has been brought up already, but looking at him with fresh eyes I was thinking he might be a nice tool to have in a lot of lists.

First of all, he has the admech, mars, character, and tech-priest keywords so you can take him in any Mars list, second of all, he's an elites choice — which under the current rules could help to fill out a brigade, although who knows what that will mean in 9th.

The reason I think he could be useful, however, is that there's a 1cp stratagem that allows him to teleport anywhere as if he were deepstriking, and you can use it more than once per game. So he's a character that can teleport to any objective you need him on multiple times.

For 22pts he might be a decent choice to help with our mobility.

As according to 40k stats.com i am the highest ranked/only competative ES player from last year. It doesn't work the way you think it does.

If you check larsen data sheet he does not have the admech or mars faction keywords (which determine what you can take in a detatchment) he can therefore only be taken in an elucidean starstriders detatchment not in an admech elite slot and so he can't fill out a brigade.

He also doesn't have access to his own teleport strat unless elucidia vhane is in your army.

However because he has the mars and admech keyword he can benefit from relevant strats buffs and warlord traits once hes in your army provided you also have an admech detatchment

U02dah4 wrote:
My take on all this is that multi subfaction play became a lot stronger.

If you have a warlord in a secondary detatchment you can effectively select which canticle you want reguardless of your main detatchment.

The new warlord traits are really strong and go some way to closeing the gap on cawl castles.

Custom forgeworlds seem underwhelming barring very specific small detatchments

The fix on ruststalkers and corpuscarii are both significant

Pteraxi are too overcosted to be credible

The raiders are the stand out new unit. Sulphur hounds are ok

Stratoraptors cool but a little pricey the transvectors are a fail only transporting 6 models is waek letting them transport secutarii is nice but secutarii are minimum 10 models - so do they proof the bombers seem overcosted

Overall it seems like admech got a needed power up and might even be top tear


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Suzuteo wrote:

Pomguo wrote:
I thought you can give a WLT to a named character but it must be the special trait of their subfaction or the trait specified for them in their codex.

Yeah, usually it is specified. I am not so sure about the sidegame characters though...

Also, the Canticles are not Forge World locked, so what I said about giving it to a Knight applies. +1S or -1 to hit within 9" Knights. Lol...

Admech wording is unusual
Cawl warlord static psalm only no relic
Larsen van de grauss any warlord trait a mars character could take no relic
Daedalosus any non forgeworld specific warlord trait no relic

The new worlord trait strategem can be used however the new warlord traits specify not named characters

Prime hermeticon could be ok on larsen monitor malevolous seems the other obvious choice

I would probably bet that the FW Canticles will get FAQ'd to only effect the FW specified units. Having your Mars units suddenly be super sneaky like Stygies or as durable due to masterwork bionics like Lucius seems like a HUGE oversight... Thats like having your Ironhand Devastator Doctrine affect other Chapters like White Scars and Ravenguard.

I dont see how Pteraxii are overcosted..... The Sterylizors are quite frankly amazing. Just being able to redeploy every other turn is worth the cost alone, that gives so much mobility and protection to the unit, they can "fall back" from combat when other units simply cant! Those Rustalkers that you say are significantly improved have to rely on a CP, and can fail to interact in that turn if they fail their charge and most objectives arent usually within 9" reach of board edge even if you only have to get within 3". Yeah its a same turn move where as the Pteraxii have to wait a turn, but atleast they can shoot and have the same change to charge. Skystalkers can atleast also make use of Wrath of Mars and plink wounds off vehicles and other units whilst also not needing to get as danger close like infiltartors do! 11pts for a Ruststalker / 15pts for a Infiltrator / 15pts for a Skystalker / 17pts for a Sterylizor.

I couldnt disagree more with that statement haha! Skystalkers kind of replace Infiltrators straight up especially if taser goads are being changed to a 6 unmodified. Fly, the extra range, of movement and to the weapons. the baked in redeploy, grenades and token stratagem for the same cost as Infiltrators is kind of an insult to those older Sicarians.... Whatever they could do they do better... Except combat (which they would still fold like wet paper if the enemy hit back) and the absolutely trash neurostatic aura they changed from 7th. Now morale is different in 9th but I dont see the aura being that useful for them.

Sterylizors are just amazing, 17pts for the base model and the flamer is ridiculous. I pay 14pts for a Skorcha for my Orkz.... 8pts for my shredders for Dark Eldar. And I liked shredders in Flayed Skull (granted they dont affect Scourges but they do Kabalites), Scourges are 20pts a model with shredders, whilst they are str 6 and reroll to wound vs infantry, they dont ignore cover (gonna be more prevalent in 9th) or autohit, let alone get them anywhere near 9 in a unit. They dont have the amount of wounds, the better combat stats (by a large margin) or the redeploy again. Then lets factor in the new strat that stops an infantry unit falling back on a 2+. We dont know what the core rule book one will be but if this is a straight upgrade or identical, we could have 2 uses of locking units in combat a turn!

At what price would Skystalkers and Sterylizors be worth it to you? Im really intrigued. Of course they are fragile, that comes with being Skitarii, but the flexibility, mobility, armaments and costing is what most other codexes hope for with their units. If an intercessor is 17pts for 1 extra toughess, save and leadership but half the movement, no fly, no redeploy mid battle or deepstrike in general, no invun and worse combat stats (to Sterylizors) (and arguably worse guns as Sterylizors can get easily get into range) then I dont get whats so bad about the cost? Whatever damage 2 gun that kills a primaris kills one of these.

For all we know troops might not even be that useful in 9th and screening is kind of getting less prevalent now that our vehicles can fall back and still shot at normal BS or -1 with Stygies, or flat out shoot into combat.... Im not saying screening is no longer needed, but we should be less concerned about getting caught with our pants round our ankles once we get loved tap by a unit in combat. Wrapping and trapping is still and issue but we have the tools to mitigate the overall lose of shooting efficiency.

The planes.... well the only one I value is the bomber. 110-130pts is super good for bombs that never run out and with the better than eldar turn pattern you can get quite the good range of movement. It also has one of the smallest turning arcs in the game, you move it 10" forward and then 10" either right or left and then its phyiscally only moved 10" in a diagonal, then with the 70" move it can really get some nice angles and bombing runs for other turns, and having access to tremor shells is so nice to have. The other 2 are pretty damn near pointless, nothing to say about them. And not having the Skitarii keyword is just lazy rules writing unless it was intentional to stop two Stratoraptors getting +1 to hit, but yet now we can get 2 Desintegrators +1 to hit too with PDI and the specific one for the Grator.

The Hounds, I agree that the Raiders have some crazy good utility and as some one mentioned before, moving them towards the charging unit to then stop them charging further and tapping all your lines to shut them down/reduce the firepower. Suplhurs I want to like but they really compete with Sterylizors and I just see the bats doing more and easier, the real life price cost alone is a such a turn off too for them, when 9 is 169pts (base equipment no blast carbines) for £105 or £82.50 from my local retailer is so damn steep.

Overall the new warlord traits, canticles and strats have been a nice refresh to the range and has gotten me excited to play again (most of you know I kept falling out of love with 8th), the buildabear dogmas are meh, but so are most of the other PA ones, could be as bad as GCS though haha.

Ill be converting up 2 Grators like this link:
https://imgur.com/gallery/o4n5FUO

Pre faq thats how it works canticle wise and it could be a legitimate design choice that limits you to only one for your army based on your actual warlord. Plus doing it that way is an anti soup measure as having an out of faction warlord means you dont get a new canticle. Also from a fluff perspective marines chapters are more insular than forgeworlds just look at the mechanicus computer game could be representing a stygies dominous uploading his psalm code altering behaviour instantly rather than a space marine doctrine which would take a long time for a marine to change its learned behaviour. I read as intentional.

The taser goad ups the pteraxi by a ppmish on a squad of 5 half a point on 10
Mars infiltrators and lucius corpuscarii do the same job now only corpuscarii do it way better. Sure you slightly outgun the infiltrators but your paying more pts for no extra durability and that's already the biggest downside of infiltrators - they are too glass cannony. For me they would be worth it at the point they render corpuscarii and infiltrators worthless because they perform the same function. and right now corpuscarii got buffed to being most efficient infantry clearers, the combined firepower of all the cognis stubbers in my army second, massed vanguard 3rd (till 9th), raiders 4th infiltrators 5th and then pteraxi and im just not getting that far down the list

I also hadn't noticed the taser goad change but that just makes both units worse and probably makes infiltrators a poor choice rather than justifying pteraxi so that's one existing unit obsoleted although maybe not as a single in a mixed detachment

The stratoraptor for me is good for it's durability and manoeuvrability. The grators have better firepower but it's not an either or situation come 9th I'm considering 3 of each and 3 onagers swap my troops for flyers (as im not a mars castle player)

Problem with sulphurs is I don't see the point in them unless i have maxed out raiders and by then I'm cutting in to the artillery pts wise

So you could have Mars bots and Stygies vehicles, and the Stygies vehicles would benefit from the Mars Canticle, hmm

My heart is breaking so hard that I can't find a way to justify Sulphurhounds. I wanted so bad to want them, even pre-ordered 2 boxes out of a desire to run a squad of 6 or two units of 3, but the raiders just seem so. much. better.

Those of you way more tactically verse than me, I am open to any and all justification for Sulphurhounds.

Maybe because i play almost exclusively maelstrom missions i just dont see the value in raiders. Sure, theyre faster and will get in the enemy's face pretty much immediately even if you dont Stygies them up 9" before their 12" free movement (technically 12+D6 because "as your movement phase" indicates they can advance if im not mistaken) but they have absolute garbage weapons and arent exactly difficult to remove so theyre just gonna die really quick and not do much unless youre against orks or guard and reached a character, as they have low enough armor to be afraid of the AP0 (the mortal wounds simply will not happen enough w/o a full squad to realistically kill a character fast enough).

Getting to an objective immediately is rarely a requirement for me. That must be why i just dont get the praise for raiders.

Yeah I think when you look at the comparative ITC mission sets as an example, there's a lot more emphasis on taking/holding objectives; whereas with Maelstrom missions (which I also mostly play) you get a variety of things you might have to achieve, but the maneuverability of Raiders could still be a real benefit.

They're also a distraction. It's not uncommon for someone to react against the first thing that comes running at them, so for their cheap points value they could be a huge magnet.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Maybe because i play almost exclusively maelstrom missions i just dont see the value in raiders. Sure, theyre faster and will get in the enemy's face pretty much immediately even if you dont Stygies them up 9" before their 12" free movement (technically 12+D6 because "as your movement phase" indicates they can advance if im not mistaken) but they have absolute garbage weapons and arent exactly difficult to remove so theyre just gonna die really quick and not do much unless youre against orks or guard and reached a character, as they have low enough armor to be afraid of the AP0 (the mortal wounds simply will not happen enough w/o a full squad to realistically kill a character fast enough).

Getting to an objective immediately is rarely a requirement for me. That must be why i just dont get the praise for raiders.

But the amount of wounds you get per point is a big seller to me.
Skitarii Rangers are 7 pts per W, Raiders are 4,7 pts per W, beating even Ruststalkers at 5,5pts per W.

So even if they die, which they will in the end, it takes quite a bit of volume of shots to take them down which would otherwise go into your transuranic arquebi in the back.

So anything that isn't 3 Damage is either treating them effectively as 2W by absorbing 2 or 3 shots to bring one down at a really good price point.
For me, they add a LOT of mobility that, due to low offence, is not a priority for the enemy to take down and can zoom around the battlefield for objective shenanigans, shooing troops of objectives and taking them themselves.
Which also is kind of the point for Sulphurhounds, since they' do the same thing, but differently and more offensively minded.

though i have to admit the stratagem allowing them to Fall Back as well is amusing.
If they are contesting an objective and something proper mean shows up to charge them they can just...leave. And still shoot/charge next turn since it wasnt their turn they fell back.

Now that i think about it it kind of reminds me of my old Piranha wall tactics with tau. I brought them purely to be annoying, they generally didnt kill anything but were stupid difficult to get rid of for their cost, ending up being a literal waste of time to get rid of in the end but because they were in the way they HAD to be taken out first.

I probably should make my cavalry raiders. Flat3 damage isnt that common unless its a proper anti-vehicle gun, and if youre firing that at my raiders either i stuck their nose out like an idiot and they were the only target or you are wasting shots. Minus orks of course, rokkits generally cant reach said tanks early on so they'll take whatever multiwound target they can get.

U02dah4 wrote:
Pre faq thats how it works canticle wise and it could be a legitimate design choice that limits you to only one for your army based on your actual warlord. Plus doing it that way is an anti soup measure as having an out of faction warlord means you dont get a new canticle. Also from a fluff perspective marines chapters are more insular than forgeworlds just look at the mechanicus computer game could be representing a stygies dominous uploading his psalm code altering behaviour instantly rather than a space marine doctrine which would take a long time for a marine to change its learned behaviour. I read as intentional.

The taser goad ups the pteraxi by a ppmish on a squad of 5 half a point on 10
Mars infiltrators and lucius corpuscarii do the same job now only corpuscarii do it way better. Sure you slightly outgun the infiltrators but your paying more pts for no extra durability and that's already the biggest downside of infiltrators - they are too glass cannony. For me they would be worth it at the point they render corpuscarii and infiltrators worthless because they perform the same function. and right now corpuscarii got buffed to being most efficient infantry clearers, the combined firepower of all the cognis stubbers in my army second, massed vanguard 3rd (till 9th), raiders 4th infiltrators 5th and then pteraxi and im just not getting that far down the list

I also hadn't noticed the taser goad change but that just makes both units worse and probably makes infiltrators a poor choice rather than justifying pteraxi so that's one existing unit obsoleted although maybe not as a single in a mixed detachment

The stratoraptor for me is good for it's durability and manoeuvrability. The grators have better firepower but it's not an either or situation come 9th I'm considering 3 of each and 3 onagers swap my troops for flyers (as im not a mars castle player)

Problem with sulphurs is I don't see the point in them unless i have maxed out raiders and by then I'm cutting in to the artillery pts wise

I think "slightly" is the wrong word to use 12" range flechette blasters to 24" range flechette carbines is exactly a 100% increase, the extra foot of threat range is quite a lot seeing how everyone loves the extra 3/6" range from Manipulus/other abilities and army traits. Not only does it increase the range but it also helps the unit not get obliterated by Auspex scan/Infoslave skull/Early warning override and any other ability like the aformentioned ones (except Forewarned ). Furthermore it allows them to reach targets that have been safely screened out from deepstriking units getting within range (and lets do a honourable mention to SM Infilitrators that will zone you out by 12" instead of 9" which entirely shuts down both Corpuscarii and Infiltrators. Of course this all applies to Sterylizors too but more on that later).

You could preplan and flare the Manipulus up the board a turn ahead to get either of those 2 units +3" range, but thats not very likely. 10-20 Corpuscarii are good, especially with the 1CP for Electrostatic, Overcharge, a 5++ 5+++ all for 12ppm but they arent world beaters by themselves (already its 2CP just for the teleport and overcharge) and in light of 9th edition, we have no idea what the general CP allowance will be, if multiple subfactions/detachments cost CP, or if there is a generic interceptor-like strat out that helps the armies that dont have access to firing at units arriving by deepstrike. For all we know there could be a new Admech codex 3 months away from now that changes the 6+ to a flat 6 for their gauntlets just how it looks like taser will be. We already kinda know pts will be changing come the new edition, whether its day 1 with FAQ's thats a different story.

Back to the pts issue I still dont get the issue with Skystalkers.... You pay a 1 off 4pt option to have pretty much better abilities across the board... 75pts for 5 Infiltrators, 79pts for 5 Skystalkers, a 5.06% increase. At 10 models that 150pts to 154pts is now a 2.6% increase, thats just barely anything. For either percentage your getting 4" better movement with fly, inbuilt MW production which only 1 model in the unit needs to partially fly over for the whole unit to drop bombs, a redeploy during the battle, 12" extra range on the guns and access to a 1CP stratagem that Infiltrators dont even get a unique one for them. Factor in the above about intercept from various stratagems and then the larger threat range from deepstrike and general movement (16").... Yeah its not even a clear contest, Skystalkers are leagues ahead its not even funny.... Even if we go talk about melee... its a 27.78% chance either unit will make a 9" charge from deepstrike, not something you can plan towards, and if you somehow get a +1.... thats a 41.67%.... I wouldnt even bother with a CP reroll By no stretch of the imagination am I saying Skystalkers broken, I wouldnt ever use them tbh, just like I dont use Infiltrators anymore. But for literally 4pts more they make Infiltrators obsolete, unless your tryna fill out a brigade, but we have el cheapo Servitors for that!

If you wanna use Wrath of Mars, and for some reason your nor slapping it on Kastellans, then Skystalkers would be the next best/safe option. You could argue Corpuscarii, but in a competitve setting you cant risk a unit getting blasted to the shadow realm as soon as they to do their job. Ive been on the receiving end of Aggressors, Dark Reapers and numerous other shoot you when you appear 12" away armies... If Corpuscarii work for you! Great! Loving seeing people use Elctro-priests! I just dont see them as being viable except Fulgurites but thats a different topic.

Stratoraptor im still not convinced, Id rather take Balistarii and thats saying something haha!! now cognis pretty much has no downside, your -1 to hit anyway with the chickens when you move so you might aswell advance, or just stand/move still next to a Fabrications of the Artisan warlord and Manipulus for AP 2 autocannons / AP 4 lascannons at str 8/10 for Mars.... If the heavy phosphor blasters pts cost isnt a typo than the Raptor is 114-134pts, thats 2 twin autocannon Balistarii, and nearly 2 twin lascannon ones. If it is a typo then your looking at 144-164pts which is tooooooo much, its already overcosted! Atleast the chickens can all get +1 to hit instead of just 1 Raptor, and then a further +1 to wound vs titanic whenever that would crop up.

If I were to rate the new units from highest to lowest itd be:

Good - Sterylizors/Raiders/Fusilave
Ok - Skystalkers/Hounds
Bad - Stratoraptor/Transvector




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Maybe because i play almost exclusively maelstrom missions i just dont see the value in raiders. Sure, theyre faster and will get in the enemy's face pretty much immediately even if you dont Stygies them up 9" before their 12" free movement (technically 12+D6 because "as your movement phase" indicates they can advance if im not mistaken) but they have absolute garbage weapons and arent exactly difficult to remove so theyre just gonna die really quick and not do much unless youre against orks or guard and reached a character, as they have low enough armor to be afraid of the AP0 (the mortal wounds simply will not happen enough w/o a full squad to realistically kill a character fast enough).

Getting to an objective immediately is rarely a requirement for me. That must be why i just dont get the praise for raiders.

Tbh I think we need to stop viewing units with 8th in mind, we have no idea how missions will change, it maelstom stays and if ITC/ETC will even be around or stick to the new edition. As hard as that sounds truly, planning for an 8th ed style list is kind of pointless. Your lists today might not work tomorrow. I dunno about anyone else but im not buying, playing or list building until 9th drops and we have solid information to start basing army lists and tactics from. We will probs need a refreshed tactica too.

Im like you Vineheart, I played Maestrom an CA missions at tournments as ngl, I dont like ITC/ETC. I find the games boring and flat. Raiders are good at what they do (that isnt shooting haha!) but is it key to the missions we play. Not everything should be judged on its ITC merits. When I go Throne of Skulls and around 5 other events each year, it isnt ITC.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Maybe because i play almost exclusively maelstrom missions i just dont see the value in raiders. Sure, theyre faster and will get in the enemy's face pretty much immediately even if you dont Stygies them up 9" before their 12" free movement (technically 12+D6 because "as your movement phase" indicates they can advance if im not mistaken) but they have absolute garbage weapons and arent exactly difficult to remove so theyre just gonna die really quick and not do much unless youre against orks or guard and reached a character, as they have low enough armor to be afraid of the AP0 (the mortal wounds simply will not happen enough w/o a full squad to realistically kill a character fast enough).

Getting to an objective immediately is rarely a requirement for me. That must be why i just dont get the praise for raiders.

im a board control player one you have an objective the enemy have to kill you to get it that delays them. also with a 24" move and one advance and a charge my strategy if going fist will often be to charge the enemy t1 hopefully sniping a vulnerable character or two. by engageing there screens in CC it will leave a lot of lists stuck in their deployment zone till atleast t2. by which time maelstrom or itc im holding a lot of objectives.

I know having to take one of the custom Forgeworlds for this tactic might invalidate it competitively, but I want to share it anyway:
Rad-saturated world with secondary which makes rad-saturation aura 3" would allow Sulphurhounds to run up to a unit's face (but not get into CC) and unload their 2+1d6 shots against -1 toughness.
That's qualitatively different from Sterylizors (even if not better).

Do you think it could make them more viable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:

im a board control player one you have an objective the enemy have to kill you to get it that delays them. also with a 24" move and one advance and a charge my strategy if going fist will often be to charge the enemy t1 hopefully sniping a vulnerable character or two. by engageing there screens in CC it will leave a lot of lists stuck in their deployment zone till atleast t2. by which time maelstrom or itc im holding a lot of objectives.

Sniping one character or two? You don't mean by using Raiders alone, right? 9 of them won't statistically kill a 5w SM character in a turn. I guess you meant in combination with transuranics.
Getting to an objective immediately is rarely a requirement for me. That must be why i just dont get the praise for raiders

 deffrekka wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Pre faq thats how it works canticle wise and it could be a legitimate design choice that limits you to only one for your army based on your actual warlord. Plus doing it that way is an anti soup measure as having an out of faction warlord means you dont get a new canticle. Also from a fluff perspective marines chapters are more insular than forgeworlds just look at the mechanicus computer game could be representing a stygies dominous uploading his psalm code altering behaviour instantly rather than a space marine doctrine which would take a long time for a marine to change its learned behaviour. I read as intentional.

The taser goad ups the pteraxi by a ppmish on a squad of 5 half a point on 10
Mars infiltrators and lucius corpuscarii do the same job now only corpuscarii do it way better. Sure you slightly outgun the infiltrators but your paying more pts for no extra durability and that's already the biggest downside of infiltrators - they are too glass cannony. For me they would be worth it at the point they render corpuscarii and infiltrators worthless because they perform the same function. and right now corpuscarii got buffed to being most efficient infantry clearers, the combined firepower of all the cognis stubbers in my army second, massed vanguard 3rd (till 9th), raiders 4th infiltrators 5th and then pteraxi and im just not getting that far down the list

I also hadn't noticed the taser goad change but that just makes both units worse and probably makes infiltrators a poor choice rather than justifying pteraxi so that's one existing unit obsoleted although maybe not as a single in a mixed detachment

The stratoraptor for me is good for it's durability and manoeuvrability. The grators have better firepower but it's not an either or situation come 9th I'm considering 3 of each and 3 onagers swap my troops for flyers (as im not a mars castle player)

Problem with sulphurs is I don't see the point in them unless i have maxed out raiders and by then I'm cutting in to the artillery pts wise

I think "slightly" is the wrong word to use 12" range flechette blasters to 24" range flechette carbines is exactly a 100% increase, the extra foot of threat range is quite a lot seeing how everyone loves the extra 3/6" range from Manipulus/other abilities and army traits. Not only does it increase the range but it also helps the unit not get obliterated by Auspex scan/Infoslave skull/Early warning override and any other ability like the aformentioned ones (except Forewarned ). Furthermore it allows them to reach targets that have been safely screened out from deepstriking units getting within range (and lets do a honourable mention to SM Infilitrators that will zone you out by 12" instead of 9" which entirely shuts down both Corpuscarii and Infiltrators. Of course this all applies to Sterylizors too but more on that later).

You could preplan and flare the Manipulus up the board a turn ahead to get either of those 2 units +3" range, but thats not very likely. 10-20 Corpuscarii are good, especially with the 1CP for Electrostatic, Overcharge, a 5++ 5+++ all for 12ppm but they arent world beaters by themselves (already its 2CP just for the teleport and overcharge) and in light of 9th edition, we have no idea what the general CP allowance will be, if multiple subfactions/detachments cost CP, or if there is a generic interceptor-like strat out that helps the armies that dont have access to firing at units arriving by deepstrike. For all we know there could be a new Admech codex 3 months away from now that changes the 6+ to a flat 6 for their gauntlets just how it looks like taser will be. We already kinda know pts will be changing come the new edition, whether its day 1 with FAQ's thats a different story.

Back to the pts issue I still dont get the issue with Skystalkers.... You pay a 1 off 4pt option to have pretty much better abilities across the board... 75pts for 5 Infiltrators, 79pts for 5 Skystalkers, a 5.06% increase. At 10 models that 150pts to 154pts is now a 2.6% increase, thats just barely anything. For either percentage your getting 4" better movement with fly, inbuilt MW production which only 1 model in the unit needs to partially fly over for the whole unit to drop bombs, a redeploy during the battle, 12" extra range on the guns and access to a 1CP stratagem that Infiltrators dont even get a unique one for them. Factor in the above about intercept from various stratagems and then the larger threat range from deepstrike and general movement (16").... Yeah its not even a clear contest, Skystalkers are leagues ahead its not even funny.... Even if we go talk about melee... its a 27.78% chance either unit will make a 9" charge from deepstrike, not something you can plan towards, and if you somehow get a +1.... thats a 41.67%.... I wouldnt even bother with a CP reroll By no stretch of the imagination am I saying Skystalkers broken, I wouldnt ever use them tbh, just like I dont use Infiltrators anymore. But for literally 4pts more they make Infiltrators obsolete, unless your tryna fill out a brigade, but we have el cheapo Servitors for that!

If you wanna use Wrath of Mars, and for some reason your nor slapping it on Kastellans, then Skystalkers would be the next best/safe option. You could argue Corpuscarii, but in a competitve setting you cant risk a unit getting blasted to the shadow realm as soon as they to do their job. Ive been on the receiving end of Aggressors, Dark Reapers and numerous other shoot you when you appear 12" away armies... If Corpuscarii work for you! Great! Loving seeing people use Elctro-priests! I just dont see them as being viable except Fulgurites but thats a different topic.

Stratoraptor im still not convinced, Id rather take Balistarii and thats saying something haha!! now cognis pretty much has no downside, your -1 to hit anyway with the chickens when you move so you might aswell advance, or just stand/move still next to a Fabrications of the Artisan warlord and Manipulus for AP 2 autocannons / AP 4 lascannons at str 8/10 for Mars.... If the heavy phosphor blasters pts cost isnt a typo than the Raptor is 114-134pts, thats 2 twin autocannon Balistarii, and nearly 2 twin lascannon ones. If it is a typo then your looking at 144-164pts which is tooooooo much, its already overcosted! Atleast the chickens can all get +1 to hit instead of just 1 Raptor, and then a further +1 to wound vs titanic whenever that would crop up.

If I were to rate the new units from highest to lowest itd be:

Good - Sterylizors/Raiders/Fusilave
Ok - Skystalkers/Hounds
Bad - Stratoraptor/Transvector




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Maybe because i play almost exclusively maelstrom missions i just dont see the value in raiders. Sure, theyre faster and will get in the enemy's face pretty much immediately even if you dont Stygies them up 9" before their 12" free movement (technically 12+D6 because "as your movement phase" indicates they can advance if im not mistaken) but they have absolute garbage weapons and arent exactly difficult to remove so theyre just gonna die really quick and not do much unless youre against orks or guard and reached a character, as they have low enough armor to be afraid of the AP0 (the mortal wounds simply will not happen enough w/o a full squad to realistically kill a character fast enough).

Getting to an objective immediately is rarely a requirement for me. That must be why i just dont get the praise for raiders.

Tbh I think we need to stop viewing units with 8th in mind, we have no idea how missions will change, it maelstom stays and if ITC/ETC will even be around or stick to the new edition. As hard as that sounds truly, planning for an 8th ed style list is kind of pointless. Your lists today might not work tomorrow. I dunno about anyone else but im not buying, playing or list building until 9th drops and we have solid information to start basing army lists and tactics from. We will probs need a refreshed tactica too.

Im like you Vineheart, I played Maestrom an CA missions at tournments as ngl, I dont like ITC/ETC. I find the games boring and flat. Raiders are good at what they do (that isnt shooting haha!) but is it key to the missions we play. Not everything should be judged on its ITC merits. When I go Throne of Skulls and around 5 other events each year, it isnt ITC.

extra range beyond 12" makes little difference when you drop in shoot and fail to survive a second turn as you lack durability your anti infantry so your hitting the screens not the units being screened. they cant zone you out because you take this unit to deal with zoners.

9th ed isn't here yet and their is not enough information to make informed choices about it as any number of announced changes could radically change things. 8th post engine war pre 9th we can meaningfully discuss. Once we have 9th rules any units can be reevaluated.

they are on flying baces and durability wise very expensive any competent opponent will shoot them off the table and at their height your not going to hide them. so one round of fire and screen clearance is what you get. redeploy ability is worthless largely because you get one shot and then your opponent kills them flying 4" extra movement doesn't matter you drop in you fire one shot then you die. bombs sound ok but wait one second you drop in you fire once you die you dont get to bomb.

so yes lets compare to lucius corpuscarii 308pts for 20 vs 240pts for corpuscarii. or 68pts difference at about 20% saving but corpuscarii cost 2 cp one to Ds and 1 for 2ap assuming RR1's from canticle

corpuscarii 66Hits S5 AP2 Skystalkers 33 hits S3 AP0 I agree theirs no comparison corpuscarii are more pts efficient and clear screens better. even if you dont pay the cp for ap2 its still 66hits s5 vs 33hits s3 at a 20% pts reduction

while in CC if you make the charge Corpuscarii can atleast finish up 50hits S5 vs 6hits s5 and 21 s3 again not even close

because as you say you get "blasted to the shadow realm as soon as you WoM" infiltrators still outperform skystalkers if you use that strategy identical shooting / durability 2.6% increase in cost is still 2.6% worse. however because they will sometimes make the charge 10 taser goads is going to be way more effective than 1 taser goad making infiltrators significantly better.

your strategy only works if your opponent doesn't understand target priority or your board has really dense terrain tall enough to block los to flying bases


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DanielFM wrote:
I know having to take one of the custom Forgeworlds for this tactic might invalidate it competitively, but I want to share it anyway:
Rad-saturated world with secondary which makes rad-saturation aura 3" would allow Sulphurhounds to run up to a unit's face (but not get into CC) and unload their 2+1d6 shots against -1 toughness.
That's qualitatively different from Sterylizors (even if not better).

Do you think it could make them more viable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:

im a board control player one you have an objective the enemy have to kill you to get it that delays them. also with a 24" move and one advance and a charge my strategy if going fist will often be to charge the enemy t1 hopefully sniping a vulnerable character or two. by engageing there screens in CC it will leave a lot of lists stuck in their deployment zone till atleast t2. by which time maelstrom or itc im holding a lot of objectives.

Sniping one character or two? You don't mean by using Raiders alone, right? 9 of them won't statistically kill a 5w SM character in a turn. I guess you meant in combination with transuranics.
Getting to an objective immediately is rarely a requirement for me. That must be why i just dont get the praise for raiders

no i mean raiders alone but i am thinking of running 3 units of 7 and not all characters are as tough as sm think guard, aeldari etc

but vs sm thats 4.5 Mw 4.5 ap1sv and 9 full sv assuming no buffs thats 2 sm characters by expectancy

hower in reality i would be using the new warlord traits to improve efficiency

Holy crap, three units of seven is $420 USD. I just bought a bunch of Admech, and am strongly reconsidering my decision. This is making my GSC and Nids look cheap.

I can get an Alienware laptop for the projected cost of the units I want...

21 cavalry bases and 18 inch range would make it relatively hard to be in range of a single character with all 21 even if the enemy character was just sitting out there in an open field with nothing near him (in which case you wouldn't need snipers in the first place).

U02dah4 wrote:

no i mean raiders alone but i am thinking of running 3 units of 7 and not all characters are as tough as sm think guard, aeldari etc

but vs sm thats 4.5 Mw 4.5 ap1sv and 9 full sv assuming no buffs thats 2 sm characters by expectancy

hower in reality i would be using the new warlord traits to improve efficiency

Whoa, that's quite the investment in them! 294 points without upgrades. Yeah, 21 raiders can kill some characters. I was thinking on something less extreme.

The new Warlord traits are 6" auras, I think it will be quite difficult to use both the forward deployment of Raiders and the benefits of these auras. Any trick in mind for that?

I have a couple if ideas a stygies character strat move 9 +6inch move +3.5 adv takes you to 18.5 t1 buff range is 6" so that takes you to 24.5ish or lucius solar flare forwards but then no mask

The riders 27.5 " pre game move + adv + t1 move and then with large cavalry squads you only need 1 dropped back in that 6" bubble and you get the new warlord + omniscient mask cc rerolls

As i say the aim is to slam their screens hold them in place and the units behind for a turn and snipe a couple of characters.

T2 ds in a wave of corpuscarii to that point T3 my opponent can start to expand but by then their on the back foot.


All in los of a single character unlikely but as you should be at their deployment line an 18" range is most of their deployment zone a couple could be possible.

On the topic of Forgeworld canticles meaning a buff to souping: I think it is intentional that your Warlord's faction canticle applies to the rest of the army. The more obvious way to write the rule is "if your army is Battleforged and has an AdMech Warlord, select a canticle on the table. When that canticle is rolled, the following Forgeworlds receive this buff instead." Combined with the fact that the buffs in the custom Forgeworlds are so specific, I think we should use the custom forgeworld rules for specialized detachments.

For instance, my list is souped with Imperial Knights and contains mostly Vanguard to fill out infantry and get CP. Now, after re-considering the custom forgeworlds I did the math on -1 AP on the Radium guns. I realized that makes them far and away the most efficient anti-infantry in our book barring one particular case: 2 wound MEQ. In the case, overcharging Plasmaguns is more efficient, and incidentally the most efficient platform is a Vanguard. So blocks of Vanguard with Plasma become the most point-efficient anti-infantry we can bring.

I can conceive of taking an existing Forgeworld Spearhead detachment for your Warlord to get army-wide canticles, then use custom forgeworlds to buff the bulk of the infantry.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Lucius is super underrated with that Canticle for any Skitarii. A 7/8 point model with a 4+/5++ that ignores AP-1 is super good. On top of that, their Strat is basically just as good as Stygies.

Worth nothing that it backdoors a 2 CP discount on Rotate Ion Shields for a Dominus class knight that hasn't taken Ion Bulwark. Set the Lucius canticle, pop Knight of the Cog for 1 CP. If you're just bringing one knight it's probably better to just spend a CP at the start of the game for Ion Bulwark, but if you have multiple, it's something.

 deffrekka wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

Ill be converting up 2 Grators like this link:
https://imgur.com/gallery/o4n5FUO

Those coversions are great.

U02dah4 wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
Pre faq thats how it works canticle wise and it could be a legitimate design choice that limits you to only one for your army based on your actual warlord. Plus doing it that way is an anti soup measure as having an out of faction warlord means you dont get a new canticle. Also from a fluff perspective marines chapters are more insular than forgeworlds just look at the mechanicus computer game could be representing a stygies dominous uploading his psalm code altering behaviour instantly rather than a space marine doctrine which would take a long time for a marine to change its learned behaviour. I read as intentional.

The taser goad ups the pteraxi by a ppmish on a squad of 5 half a point on 10
Mars infiltrators and lucius corpuscarii do the same job now only corpuscarii do it way better. Sure you slightly outgun the infiltrators but your paying more pts for no extra durability and that's already the biggest downside of infiltrators - they are too glass cannony. For me they would be worth it at the point they render corpuscarii and infiltrators worthless because they perform the same function. and right now corpuscarii got buffed to being most efficient infantry clearers, the combined firepower of all the cognis stubbers in my army second, massed vanguard 3rd (till 9th), raiders 4th infiltrators 5th and then pteraxi and im just not getting that far down the list

I also hadn't noticed the taser goad change but that just makes both units worse and probably makes infiltrators a poor choice rather than justifying pteraxi so that's one existing unit obsoleted although maybe not as a single in a mixed detachment

The stratoraptor for me is good for it's durability and manoeuvrability. The grators have better firepower but it's not an either or situation come 9th I'm considering 3 of each and 3 onagers swap my troops for flyers (as im not a mars castle player)

Problem with sulphurs is I don't see the point in them unless i have maxed out raiders and by then I'm cutting in to the artillery pts wise

I think "slightly" is the wrong word to use 12" range flechette blasters to 24" range flechette carbines is exactly a 100% increase, the extra foot of threat range is quite a lot seeing how everyone loves the extra 3/6" range from Manipulus/other abilities and army traits. Not only does it increase the range but it also helps the unit not get obliterated by Auspex scan/Infoslave skull/Early warning override and any other ability like the aformentioned ones (except Forewarned ). Furthermore it allows them to reach targets that have been safely screened out from deepstriking units getting within range (and lets do a honourable mention to SM Infilitrators that will zone you out by 12" instead of 9" which entirely shuts down both Corpuscarii and Infiltrators. Of course this all applies to Sterylizors too but more on that later).

You could preplan and flare the Manipulus up the board a turn ahead to get either of those 2 units +3" range, but thats not very likely. 10-20 Corpuscarii are good, especially with the 1CP for Electrostatic, Overcharge, a 5++ 5+++ all for 12ppm but they arent world beaters by themselves (already its 2CP just for the teleport and overcharge) and in light of 9th edition, we have no idea what the general CP allowance will be, if multiple subfactions/detachments cost CP, or if there is a generic interceptor-like strat out that helps the armies that dont have access to firing at units arriving by deepstrike. For all we know there could be a new Admech codex 3 months away from now that changes the 6+ to a flat 6 for their gauntlets just how it looks like taser will be. We already kinda know pts will be changing come the new edition, whether its day 1 with FAQ's thats a different story.

Back to the pts issue I still dont get the issue with Skystalkers.... You pay a 1 off 4pt option to have pretty much better abilities across the board... 75pts for 5 Infiltrators, 79pts for 5 Skystalkers, a 5.06% increase. At 10 models that 150pts to 154pts is now a 2.6% increase, thats just barely anything. For either percentage your getting 4" better movement with fly, inbuilt MW production which only 1 model in the unit needs to partially fly over for the whole unit to drop bombs, a redeploy during the battle, 12" extra range on the guns and access to a 1CP stratagem that Infiltrators dont even get a unique one for them. Factor in the above about intercept from various stratagems and then the larger threat range from deepstrike and general movement (16").... Yeah its not even a clear contest, Skystalkers are leagues ahead its not even funny.... Even if we go talk about melee... its a 27.78% chance either unit will make a 9" charge from deepstrike, not something you can plan towards, and if you somehow get a +1.... thats a 41.67%.... I wouldnt even bother with a CP reroll By no stretch of the imagination am I saying Skystalkers broken, I wouldnt ever use them tbh, just like I dont use Infiltrators anymore. But for literally 4pts more they make Infiltrators obsolete, unless your tryna fill out a brigade, but we have el cheapo Servitors for that!

If you wanna use Wrath of Mars, and for some reason your nor slapping it on Kastellans, then Skystalkers would be the next best/safe option. You could argue Corpuscarii, but in a competitve setting you cant risk a unit getting blasted to the shadow realm as soon as they to do their job. Ive been on the receiving end of Aggressors, Dark Reapers and numerous other shoot you when you appear 12" away armies... If Corpuscarii work for you! Great! Loving seeing people use Elctro-priests! I just dont see them as being viable except Fulgurites but thats a different topic.

Stratoraptor im still not convinced, Id rather take Balistarii and thats saying something haha!! now cognis pretty much has no downside, your -1 to hit anyway with the chickens when you move so you might aswell advance, or just stand/move still next to a Fabrications of the Artisan warlord and Manipulus for AP 2 autocannons / AP 4 lascannons at str 8/10 for Mars.... If the heavy phosphor blasters pts cost isnt a typo than the Raptor is 114-134pts, thats 2 twin autocannon Balistarii, and nearly 2 twin lascannon ones. If it is a typo then your looking at 144-164pts which is tooooooo much, its already overcosted! Atleast the chickens can all get +1 to hit instead of just 1 Raptor, and then a further +1 to wound vs titanic whenever that would crop up.

If I were to rate the new units from highest to lowest itd be:

Good - Sterylizors/Raiders/Fusilave
Ok - Skystalkers/Hounds
Bad - Stratoraptor/Transvector




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Maybe because i play almost exclusively maelstrom missions i just dont see the value in raiders. Sure, theyre faster and will get in the enemy's face pretty much immediately even if you dont Stygies them up 9" before their 12" free movement (technically 12+D6 because "as your movement phase" indicates they can advance if im not mistaken) but they have absolute garbage weapons and arent exactly difficult to remove so theyre just gonna die really quick and not do much unless youre against orks or guard and reached a character, as they have low enough armor to be afraid of the AP0 (the mortal wounds simply will not happen enough w/o a full squad to realistically kill a character fast enough).

Getting to an objective immediately is rarely a requirement for me. That must be why i just dont get the praise for raiders.

Tbh I think we need to stop viewing units with 8th in mind, we have no idea how missions will change, it maelstom stays and if ITC/ETC will even be around or stick to the new edition. As hard as that sounds truly, planning for an 8th ed style list is kind of pointless. Your lists today might not work tomorrow. I dunno about anyone else but im not buying, playing or list building until 9th drops and we have solid information to start basing army lists and tactics from. We will probs need a refreshed tactica too.

Im like you Vineheart, I played Maestrom an CA missions at tournments as ngl, I dont like ITC/ETC. I find the games boring and flat. Raiders are good at what they do (that isnt shooting haha!) but is it key to the missions we play. Not everything should be judged on its ITC merits. When I go Throne of Skulls and around 5 other events each year, it isnt ITC.

extra range beyond 12" makes little difference when you drop in shoot and fail to survive a second turn as you lack durability your anti infantry so your hitting the screens not the units being screened. they cant zone you out because you take this unit to deal with zoners.

9th ed isn't here yet and their is not enough information to make informed choices about it as any number of announced changes could radically change things. 8th post engine war pre 9th we can meaningfully discuss. Once we have 9th rules any units can be reevaluated.

they are on flying baces and durability wise very expensive any competent opponent will shoot them off the table and at their height your not going to hide them. so one round of fire and screen clearance is what you get. redeploy ability is worthless largely because you get one shot and then your opponent kills them flying 4" extra movement doesn't matter you drop in you fire one shot then you die. bombs sound ok but wait one second you drop in you fire once you die you dont get to bomb.

so yes lets compare to lucius corpuscarii 308pts for 20 vs 240pts for corpuscarii. or 68pts difference at about 20% saving but corpuscarii cost 2 cp one to Ds and 1 for 2ap assuming RR1's from canticle

corpuscarii 66Hits S5 AP2 Skystalkers 33 hits S3 AP0 I agree theirs no comparison corpuscarii are more pts efficient and clear screens better. even if you dont pay the cp for ap2 its still 66hits s5 vs 33hits s3 at a 20% pts reduction

while in CC if you make the charge Corpuscarii can atleast finish up 50hits S5 vs 6hits s5 and 21 s3 again not even close

because as you say you get "blasted to the shadow realm as soon as you WoM" infiltrators still outperform skystalkers if you use that strategy identical shooting / durability 2.6% increase in cost is still 2.6% worse. however because they will sometimes make the charge 10 taser goads is going to be way more effective than 1 taser goad making infiltrators significantly better.

your strategy only works if your opponent doesn't understand target priority or your board has really dense terrain tall enough to block los to flying bases


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DanielFM wrote:
I know having to take one of the custom Forgeworlds for this tactic might invalidate it competitively, but I want to share it anyway:
Rad-saturated world with secondary which makes rad-saturation aura 3" would allow Sulphurhounds to run up to a unit's face (but not get into CC) and unload their 2+1d6 shots against -1 toughness.
That's qualitatively different from Sterylizors (even if not better).

Do you think it could make them more viable?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

U02dah4 wrote:

im a board control player one you have an objective the enemy have to kill you to get it that delays them. also with a 24" move and one advance and a charge my strategy if going fist will often be to charge the enemy t1 hopefully sniping a vulnerable character or two. by engageing there screens in CC it will leave a lot of lists stuck in their deployment zone till atleast t2. by which time maelstrom or itc im holding a lot of objectives.

Sniping one character or two? You don't mean by using Raiders alone, right? 9 of them won't statistically kill a 5w SM character in a turn. I guess you meant in combination with transuranics.
Getting to an objective immediately is rarely a requirement for me. That must be why i just dont get the praise for raiders

no i mean raiders alone but i am thinking of running 3 units of 7 and not all characters are as tough as sm think guard, aeldari etc

but vs sm thats 4.5 Mw 4.5 ap1sv and 9 full sv assuming no buffs thats 2 sm characters by expectancy

hower in reality i would be using the new warlord traits to improve efficiency

Do you live a perfect world where auspex scan/equivalents dont exist? Because it sounds like it. Even as Admech, I would infoslave those poor Corpuscarii with Breachers or Destroyers. Lets just go for a little hyphothetical scenerio shall we. 10 Intercessors, assault bolters, a humble 170pts, lets throw in a Chapter Master as we have to get somewhat even to 300pts and a cheeky Lieutanent as they are everywhere. You come down, 9" away. Auspex Scan is popped. 30 shots fly your way at a -1 rerolling hits, 22.5 hits and if its imperial fists that an extra 5 hits to 27.5 but we do this at the end. Those 22.5 become 17.5 wounds with reroll 1s. On your 5++ 5+++ thats 7.778 dead. As Imperial Fists (still a good chapter after the doctrine nerf) thats 9.593 dead.

So your 13 - 11 Corpuscarii pop a CP and fire, lets be generous and give you 13 models. 39 Shots with exploding 6s is 38.667 (there abouts) hits, 25.778 wounds at AP 2 so 8.593 Intercessors (if Ironhands its 7.16 with the bare basic 6+++).... Pretty good but 2 are still alive. You go to charge, as you talk about their melee output. You have a 27.78% chance to make it... lets treat ourselves with a single CP reroll. 52.31%. For the sake of the debate will we say they are in but at such odds and 3CP spent thats a lot on a 50/50 chance just to get a kill. But those 2 Intercessors open up, 6 shots rerolling to hit. 1.883 hit, 1.426 wounds, 0.634 dead. You have 12 Electropriests left (this is from Traitless marines if it were Imperial Fists your down to 11 models, killing 4.333 of them. Their overwatch kills another 3.802 of you..... I dont think we need to carry this scenario out! And if the dice gods allow you to somehow fight traitless marines from a 9" charge, and win combat!) You now auto loose D6 models from morale (from the current 8th ed system). Do you spend 2CP to keep the 3-4 guys from running? Because thats now 5CP spent on 1 unit in 1 turn. It doesnt look like a fair trade by any stretch of the imagination and thats just 10 Intercessors, not Aggressors or Cents. Youve just thrown away half the unit that then gets blasted next turn even easier than 10 Skystalkers.

You could mitigate all that damage byyyyy.... being over 12" away and firing! In either case neither unit is surviving the turn after they strike, but having the EXTRA 12" RANGE makes all the difference. I could screen you out with Grots then what? You wont be within range to anything past the Grot buffer. Its a lot harder to screenout and intercept a unit that has 24" range, PERIOD. With Even with Comms Jammer / Screens.

Furthermore if your willing to spend a CP on Corpuscarii you might aswell give +1 to hit to the Skystalkers, that 33.333 hits becomes 41.667, it narrows the gap considerably for a unit that costs 154pts over 240pts. For their price tag they are good, but are they needed is the question you have to ask. The whole army is anti-infantry is spades, and now mobile str 7 half-telsa kastellans with the benefits of full rerolls, healing and nearly 4x the range by a Manipulus will do all the anti infantry you need and more.

Having the option to move 4" quicker, redeploy, fly, engage at double the distance and cause MWs all without a use of a CP is well worth the 15ppm price tag, if games have terrain to hide a Knight (pretty damn common in my area ngl) you can hide 10 Pteraxii. Your kind of inflatuated with Corpuscarii that you dont value other options, and having played against Lucius shenigans numerous times before as Stygies throughout the whole edition, it isnt that scary. Id rather use those 240pts for 2 more Desintegrators or 2 Onagers.

Having a fairly fragile unit thats capped out at 12" range thats just asking for an intercept or to be zoned out, isnt a good tactic in my books. Id rather have something reliable and safe than a wild card that could die just from bing placed 9" away from a unit.

Madjob wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Lucius is super underrated with that Canticle for any Skitarii. A 7/8 point model with a 4+/5++ that ignores AP-1 is super good. On top of that, their Strat is basically just as good as Stygies.

Worth nothing that it backdoors a 2 CP discount on Rotate Ion Shields for a Dominus class knight that hasn't taken Ion Bulwark. Set the Lucius canticle, pop Knight of the Cog for 1 CP. If you're just bringing one knight it's probably better to just spend a CP at the start of the game for Ion Bulwark, but if you have multiple, it's something.

Hadn't thought about that as I haven't thought about using Knights in a while.

Well I recognise they exist however youve cherry picked probably the exact worst combination and to be honest i havnt played an if list all year so lets assume its IH as i will encounter that more often.

So 7.7 dead out of 20 fine your opponent has 2 extra CP i have 12 firing causeing 42 s5 ap 2 hits assuming rr1.

Vs your 41 s3 ap0 hits assuming your calculations correct you still perform worse don't burn their cp and still only get 1 turn of shooting.

That also assumes i deepstrike in without t1 softening the screens up to reduce such an impact which lets face it probably would given i dont know 21 raiders having killed the lieutenent.

Thirdly my primary aim with the corpuscarii as stated earlier is to keep the enemy penned in there deploment zone 12 models 9" away does this. 20" away doesnt

As to cp if i need to spend cp to stop four guys running to keep them penned its worth it but that depends on the board state t2 and other factors such as surviving raiders or dragoons.

I went to 4 venues last year includeing 2 super majors i cant thing of a single table that would allow 10 flying bases a clear los to shoot a screen from more than 12" away while being completely obscured from your opponents shooting the following turn. 9 times out of 10 at that range you can see them they can see you best you can hope for is cover unless you can get really lucky with positioning on a nova L and thats a rareity and also wont happen because of my raiders being to far forward to allow them into that position


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In each rendition of this the facts are pretty much the same
Corpuscarii are 20% cheaper
Corpuscarii outshoot you
Corpuscarii are close enough to potentially charge
Corpuscarii board control by blocking the enemy in for a turn
Corpuscarii likely die after one turn

Skystalkers 20% more expensive
Skystalkers have weaker shooting
Skystalkers under your position are not close enough to charge
Skystalkers under your position are not going to move block the enemy
Skystalkers likely die after one turn if they can be seen
You believe you can consistantly shoot the enemy screens while hiding 10 flying bases - if you can goodluck to you i suspect a few games with them will teach you otherwise

As I said before, Raiders are good because they are fast and cheap. Don't expect them to do anything but grab objectives early and zone out your opponent's infiltration and deep strike. Also, not sure you will get much use out of the stratagem except in very rare instances.

Infiltrators and Rustalkers both sorta suck now. Still not convinced about Sterilyzors. Fulgurites and Corpuscarii both seem like better options.

For Bombers, are you guys taking the Chaff Launchers? I am thinking they are unnecessary. I have 70" to fly, so I can probably hide it out of LOS. If someone wants to go out of his way to hunt it down, fine by me.

 deffrekka wrote:

Ill be converting up 2 Grators like this link:
https://imgur.com/gallery/o4n5FUO

Here's how I converted mine using the prow of the Disintegrator and some cheapo Rhinos:
https://imgur.com/mEzlibv

RogueApiary wrote:
Holy crap, three units of seven is $420 USD. I just bought a bunch of Admech, and am strongly reconsidering my decision. This is making my GSC and Nids look cheap.

I can get an Alienware laptop for the projected cost of the units I want...

Point for point, we are probably the most expensive army aside from Sisters. I joked about it a few pages back, but yeah, it can hurt.

How do you hide a flyer out of LOS? Or do you mean building it in the on the ground variant and telling people that they can't target it even though it's actually in the air because it's modeled on the ground?

I think I agree on not taking the chaff launcher, though.

yukishiro1 wrote:
How do you hide a flyer out of LOS? Or do you mean building it in the on the ground variant and telling people that they can't target it even though it's actually in the air because it's modeled on the ground?

I think I agree on not taking the chaff launcher, though.

I prefer to build it on the ground for easier transport, and I could care less if someone cries MFA if it's totally allowed in the build instructions.