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I can't imagine anyone allowing it to be modeled as 'landed' when it's meant to be airborne, unless you go out of your way to ensure that you have some kind of modeled bit for where it should be while flying around.

The landed build is meant for dioramas and the like.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 dadamowsky wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i'll be honest, that with the pricetag alone makes me kinda not wanna get one now.
Why? Its GOING to be shot first and its so wide have fun hiding it. Basically never gonna get use out of it other than bullet-sponge lol.

Plus i dont play in a hyper competitive area anyway

yeah but you can model it without a flying stand so hiding it behind ruins should be doable. Still, 120CAD for a plane is gonna suck. I'm probably gonna get mine from an alternate source honestly.

I imagine hardly any TO will allow to play it that way. None in my area would at least, and neither would I want to anyway... Besides the plane gets -1D wargear, maybe -1 to hit from Airborne, and Stygies on top, so it's not like cheesing the stand is so essential.

A TO can't prevent you from playing a model that you assembled following the isntructions that come in the box would they? Because GW said that you had the build instruction to built it airborne or landed.

Yes they can. "All Fliers have to be put on the appropiate stand; no modelling for advantage is allowed" is actually pretty common in the rules packs I've seen. WTC might have it put in their actual FAQ, I'd have to check to be sure, but I am heck damn certain none of my local TOs (and they are working in/with WTC as well) would ever allow such practice. Besides it's not very sporty in the first place...

I'm confused. How would new Canticles work? Especially for Mars that needs you to roll for it. Would it replace an existing Canticle or be an alternative you can always select?

 shamroll wrote:
I'm confused. How would new Canticles work? Especially for Mars that needs you to roll for it. Would it replace an existing Canticle or be an alternative you can always select?

We'll find out when the book drops?

In all likelihood, since there's a whole section on Canticles it likely states how they work there.

 Kanluwen wrote:
New article just went up. Highlights:

Spoiler:

Custom traits:

Spoiler:

Serberys:

Spoiler:

Archaeopter:

Spoiler:

Mars gets the movement ability and stygies gets fall back and shoot armywide, what exactly is the point of Metalica again? It wouldn't be quite as insulting if GW hadn't used Metalica for the article thumbnail I really wish they would address the FW traits, but FW specific canticles is a start I guess. Not entirely sure what the move and shoot for mars helps with. Only units I can think of that take heavy penalties are ironstriders, kastelans, and regular servitors with heavy weapons. Even kataphrons ignore heavy penalties. Maybe the new plane suffers them, which if so is gonna suck. The stygies one on the other hand is pretty powerful in a pinch, although not one you'll probably use often.

The rules all seem really solid so far, I just hope they give us ways to run FW's other than mars and stygies without feeling like we're deliberately gimping ourselves. I wouldn't be surprised though if the custom FW traits can be used to just take outright better versions of stuff like Metalica, graia, agrippina, etc.

I will also admit I'm pleasantly surprised to be wrong about the ranger cavalry, looks like they get to be snipers after all. I like that all their weapons get the ability, now just to see if they have weapons worth using to sniper characters with. The plane has some solid stuff too but it is a shame it doesn't have a broad-spectrum datatether for the +2 to hit, that would've been nice on the gunship.

Also, divinations of the magos is excellent. The other ones are going to have to be very good to compete with the flexibility that one provides

 dadamowsky wrote:

Yes they can. "All Fliers have to be put on the appropiate stand; no modelling for advantage is allowed" is actually pretty common in the rules packs I've seen. WTC might have it put in their actual FAQ, I'd have to check to be sure, but I am heck damn certain none of my local TOs (and they are working in/with WTC as well) would ever allow such practice. Besides it's not very sporty in the first place...

Yeah but if the official building instructions include an option to build it landed (presumably on the oval base but with no stand) then youre not modeling for advantage, you're following GW's OFFICIAL build option.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 shamroll wrote:
I'm confused. How would new Canticles work? Especially for Mars that needs you to roll for it. Would it replace an existing Canticle or be an alternative you can always select?

We'll find out when the book drops?

In all likelihood, since there's a whole section on Canticles it likely states how they work there.

Please replace litany of the electromancer, please replace litany of the electromancer, please replace litany of the electromancer...

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 shamroll wrote:
I'm confused. How would new Canticles work? Especially for Mars that needs you to roll for it. Would it replace an existing Canticle or be an alternative you can always select?

We'll find out when the book drops?

In all likelihood, since there's a whole section on Canticles it likely states how they work there.

Please replace litany of the electromancer, please replace litany of the electromancer, please replace litany of the electromancer...

my guess is that we can chose to replace whichever canticle we want by the forgeworld-specific one. Or we have the option to roll on the normal table OR pick the forgeworld one

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 dadamowsky wrote:

Yes they can. "All Fliers have to be put on the appropiate stand; no modelling for advantage is allowed" is actually pretty common in the rules packs I've seen. WTC might have it put in their actual FAQ, I'd have to check to be sure, but I am heck damn certain none of my local TOs (and they are working in/with WTC as well) would ever allow such practice. Besides it's not very sporty in the first place...

Yeah but if the official building instructions include an option to build it landed (presumably on the oval base but with no stand) then youre not modeling for advantage, you're following GW's OFFICIAL build option.

Which will still be overwritten by TO/judges ruling, event's rulespack and whatnot

Turning off those stupid 12" anti deepstrike bubbles might be good fun. Especially if that's the enemy's only screen or if they were counting on 12" in any direction from the infiltrators. Could open up a DZ for a drill or teleport.

Also, yeah, forcing Nids to lose synapse or GSC to lose fearless is freaking hilarious.

RogueApiary wrote:
Turning off those stupid 12" anti deepstrike bubbles might be good fun. Especially if that's the enemy's only screen or if they were counting on 12" in any direction from the infiltrators. Could open up a DZ for a drill or teleport.

Also, yeah, forcing Nids to lose synapse or GSC to lose fearless is freaking hilarious.

Wouldn't it be difficult to shut down synapse? I thought a lot nid models give it out now? Is it common for nids to only run a few synapse creatures or something?

The aura disabling strat seems unclear and badly worded (the grammar is also wrong, they forgot an apostrophe, but I admit that's petty). Are they trying to say that it creates a 6" null aura but for auras, or are they saying that you have to be within 6" of the unit that projects the aura, and, if you are, that aura is totally shut down, even if it's bigger than 6"?

Either way, it'll also have very weird interactions with multi-model units. Correct me if I'm wrong, but RAW this seems to say it operates model by model, meaning you're going to have weird situations where half a unit is impacted by the aura suppression but not the other half, with the potential for strange, hard-to-predict results.

I'm pretty torn on Divinations of the Magos. I never see a situation where you have assault units within 6" of your Warlord when they charge. All of our assault units operate independently, with different movement profiles than any of our characters.

If you're using your Warlord to buff a castle, you'll very rarely use Predator Programming. So then the question is whether Overlord Safeguards is better than Cawl? Maybe, maybe not?

The one situation I see Divinations of the Magos being worth its salt is on a Manipulus pushing a horde of Vanguard up the mid field, since you'll use two modes regularly. I just don't know if that's actually any good.

I guess the big advantage all the new rules have is the old stuff is mostly such utter garbage they can't help but seem reasonable.

yukishiro1 wrote:
The aura disabling strat seems unclear and badly worded (the grammar is also wrong, they forgot an apostrophe, but I admit that's petty). Are they trying to say that it creates a 6" null aura but for auras, or are they saying that you have to be within 6" of the unit that projects the aura, and, if you are, that aura is totally shut down, even if it's bigger than 6"?

Either way, it'll also have very weird interactions with multi-model units. Correct me if I'm wrong, but RAW this seems to say it operates model by model, meaning you're going to have weird situations where half a unit is impacted by the aura suppression but not the other half, with the potential for strange, hard-to-predict results.

Yes, it seems it operates on the model-by-model basis. It wouldn't be the first case - the cover bonus is rolled and acquired separately if only a part of a defending unit is in the terrain feature for instance.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

RogueApiary wrote:
Turning off those stupid 12" anti deepstrike bubbles might be good fun. Especially if that's the enemy's only screen or if they were counting on 12" in any direction from the infiltrators. Could open up a DZ for a drill or teleport.

Also, yeah, forcing Nids to lose synapse or GSC to lose fearless is freaking hilarious.

Wouldn't it be difficult to shut down synapse? I thought a lot nid models give it out now? Is it common for nids to only run a few synapse creatures or something?

Well, yes and no. Synapse primarily comes from HQs, but warriors, maleceptors, zoanthropes, and Sporocysts also give it. Some, HQs like old one eye, don't provide synapse. More importantly, there's usually only one synapse bug by the gunline bugs in the back, which means you either a) force a second HQ/expensive unit to babysit b) give a -1 to hit to every gun bug in their backline that turn c) force every gun bug to target the copter if they don't want to take the -1 penalty.

Also, super bonus points if you tag the malanthrope, turning off the -1 to hit for the 120+ Termagants they octopus chained back to him.

No, but I don't think we've ever had a situation before where auras that effect entire units can be limited to instead work on a model-by-model basis. I haven't thought through all the consequences, but I suspect there are going to be some that are extremely strange and even possibly game-breaking (in a rule sense, not a power sense - i.e. that require you to do things the game rules don't actually allow).

For example, Zeraphim have an optional upgrade that gives rerolls to units within 6". Assuming the strat is meant to work by disabling an aura completely if you are within 6" of the model giving the aura (not that it shuts off the effects of auras hitting models within 6"), how does this interact with the strat if you cover 2 of the 5 models in your 6" bubble? It's the unit that has the aura, not any individual model. Do we pretend like each individual model is giving the aura, so we turn off the aura for 2 of the 5 models, but the aura continues projecting for the other 3, so any other unit within 6" of those other 3 gets full rerolls? Or does it not shut off the aura at all, because the unit is still projecting it from the other 3 models, and that means you can measure to any of the models in the entire unit, even those that fall within the 6" bubble whose own auras are disabled, because the aura says within 6" of the unit, not of any model in the unit with the ability?

 DarkHound wrote:
I'm pretty torn on Divinations of the Magos. I never see a situation where you have assault units within 6" of your Warlord when they charge. All of our assault units operate independently, with different movement profiles than any of our characters.

If you're using your Warlord to buff a castle, you'll very rarely use Predator Programming. So then the question is whether Overlord Safeguards is better than Cawl? Maybe, maybe not?

The one situation I see Divinations of the Magos being worth its salt is on a Manipulus pushing a horde of Vanguard up the mid field, since you'll use two modes regularly. I just don't know if that's actually any good.

I guess the big advantage all the new rules have is the old stuff is mostly such utter garbage they can't help but seem reasonable.

Aww, do you think Cawl would be exempt from this?

I was getting excited at Cawls Bots with WOM and Tesla

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
New article just went up. Highlights:

Spoiler:

Custom traits:

Spoiler:

Serberys:

Spoiler:

Archaeopter:

Spoiler:

Mars gets the movement ability and stygies gets fall back and shoot armywide, what exactly is the point of Metalica again? It wouldn't be quite as insulting if GW hadn't used Metalica for the article thumbnail I really wish they would address the FW traits, but FW specific canticles is a start I guess. Not entirely sure what the move and shoot for mars helps with. Only units I can think of that take heavy penalties are ironstriders, kastelans, and regular servitors with heavy weapons. Even kataphrons ignore heavy penalties. Maybe the new plane suffers them, which if so is gonna suck. The stygies one on the other hand is pretty powerful in a pinch, although not one you'll probably use often.

The rules all seem really solid so far, I just hope they give us ways to run FW's other than mars and stygies without feeling like we're deliberately gimping ourselves. I wouldn't be surprised though if the custom FW traits can be used to just take outright better versions of stuff like Metalica, graia, agrippina, etc.

I will also admit I'm pleasantly surprised to be wrong about the ranger cavalry, looks like they get to be snipers after all. I like that all their weapons get the ability, now just to see if they have weapons worth using to sniper characters with. The plane has some solid stuff too but it is a shame it doesn't have a broad-spectrum datatether for the +2 to hit, that would've been nice on the gunship.

Also, divinations of the magos is excellent. The other ones are going to have to be very good to compete with the flexibility that one provides

I mean it isn't like Metalica was worth anything to begin with. I wouldn't think too hard on it.

P.S. Those Holy Order buffs are amazing, and I dunno why it would matter whether Cawl gets them or not. Cawl doesn't have to be your warlord. You can take Cawl and a Dominus (or even an Enginseer) and make the Dominus/Enginseer the warlord and get the benefit of both.

The biggest thing isn't the ranged buff though IMO, it's that Ad Mech now has reroll charges, something it completely lacked before. This has a huge impact of the viability of Ad Mech combat units, and it was one of the main things holding them back previously.

yukishiro1 wrote:
No, but I don't think we've ever had a situation before where auras that effect entire units can be limited to instead work on a model-by-model basis. I haven't thought through all the consequences, but I suspect there are going to be some that are extremely strange and even possibly game-breaking (in a rule sense, not a power sense - i.e. that require you to do things the game rules don't actually allow).

For example, Zeraphim have an optional upgrade that gives rerolls to units within 6". Assuming the strat is meant to work by disabling an aura completely if you are within 6" of the model giving the aura (not that it shuts off the effects of auras hitting models within 6"), how does this interact with the strat if you cover 2 of the 5 models in your 6" bubble? It's the unit that has the aura, not any individual model. Do we pretend like each individual model is giving the aura, so we turn off the aura for 2 of the 5 models, but the aura continues projecting for the other 3, so any other unit within 6" of those other 3 gets full rerolls? Or does it not shut off the aura at all, because the unit is still projecting it from the other 3 models, and that means you can measure to any of the models in the entire unit, even those that fall within the 6" bubble whose own auras are disabled, because the aura says within 6" of the unit, not of any model in the unit with the ability?

To my understanding, the stratagem disables not auras abilities as such, but effect of the auras. So, as long as enemy model is within SoB unit to qualify for receiving the aura, and not withing Archaeopter stratagem to be denied the effect, the aura is still working. Even if the aura "giver" is withing 6" from the plane.

I think it's ambiguous. But that interpretation - that it works on stuff receiving an aura, not stuff projecting an aura - is even more problematic for how it interacts with the rules. That would mean that some models in a given unit would have reroll charges and others wouldn't, which breaks the rules of the game because it's not possible. So then you have to decide whether it does nothing - because some models have reroll charges, they all do - or whether it disables the aura's effect on the whole unit - which goes counter to what the stratagem actually says re: working model by model.

Ideasweasel wrote:Aww, do you think Cawl would be exempt from this?

I was getting excited at Cawls Bots with WOM and Tesla

I have no idea what you mean. What's Tesla?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
The rules all seem really solid so far, I just hope they give us ways to run FW's other than mars and stygies without feeling like we're deliberately gimping ourselves. I wouldn't be surprised though if the custom FW traits can be used to just take outright better versions of stuff like Metalica, graia, agrippina, etc.

I mean it isn't like Metalica was worth anything to begin with. I wouldn't think too hard on it.

I think it's sad any time they homogenize factions. All the other subfactions could be good. It's really not like Mars or Stygies are that much better than the other factions, you still ignore their Forgeworld specific Warlord traits and Relics. Each Forgeworld has several junk elements to it, so adding distinguishing features to the lesser Forgeworlds gives them a leg to stand on.

Graia was the bees knees when they worked with Electropriests, all it needs is a horde of good one wound infantry; it's actually got the full package of a good dogma, Warlord trait, Strat, and arguably the best Relic. Metallica would be fine if only there were more Assault weapons to take advantage of moving and shooting, and they already have a great Warlord trait.

By Tesla I mean the extra hits for 6’s

Yuki solved it for me though.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I think it's ambiguous. But that interpretation - that it works on stuff receiving an aura, not stuff projecting an aura - is even more problematic for how it interacts with the rules. That would mean that some models in a given unit would have reroll charges and others wouldn't, which breaks the rules of the game because it's not possible. So then you have to decide whether it does nothing - because some models have reroll charges, they all do - or whether it disables the aura's effect on the whole unit - which goes counter to what the stratagem actually says re: working model by model.

That would be problematic. If I were to judge I'd say you can't reroll the charge in that instance as it is not possible to charge with only part of your unit. But I admit it requires FAQ

yukishiro1 wrote:
The biggest thing isn't the ranged buff though IMO, it's that Ad Mech now has reroll charges, something it completely lacked before. This has a huge impact of the viability of Ad Mech combat units, and it was one of the main things holding them back previously.

I'm genuinely interested in how you plan to get a character within 6" of a pack of Dragoons or Infiltrators when they roll to Charge. It doesn't apply to Secutarii. I guess you can improve the charge of Electropriests and maybe Ruststalkers? It doesn't strike me as game changing just because we haven't had it before.

I do it with a Manip alot, though they can very easily leave him in the dirt if his advance rolled like crap.
Usually if i have dragoons i got a Manip around with the mask relic for rerolls in melee. I would never make him the warlord though so moot point.

 DarkHound wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The biggest thing isn't the ranged buff though IMO, it's that Ad Mech now has reroll charges, something it completely lacked before. This has a huge impact of the viability of Ad Mech combat units, and it was one of the main things holding them back previously.

I'm genuinely interested in how you plan to get a character within 6" of a pack of Dragoons or Infiltrators when they roll to Charge. It doesn't apply to Secutarii. I guess you can improve the charge of Electropriests and maybe Ruststalkers? It doesn't strike me as game changing just because we haven't had it before.

Stygies, Lucius or Drill . This WLT does not seem to require Warlord to be on the table to activate it

Auras generally affect the entire unit if it doesnt say "wholly within" so technically if the copter stops the effect of the aura, rather than the aura source, there wouldnt be a broken half-affected half-not affected problem. The stratagem itself is an aura (which begs another question of what happens when admech vs admech do this to each other lol)

 DarkHound wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The biggest thing isn't the ranged buff though IMO, it's that Ad Mech now has reroll charges, something it completely lacked before. This has a huge impact of the viability of Ad Mech combat units, and it was one of the main things holding them back previously.

I'm genuinely interested in how you plan to get a character within 6" of a pack of Dragoons or Infiltrators when they roll to Charge. It doesn't apply to Secutarii. I guess you can improve the charge of Electropriests and maybe Ruststalkers? It doesn't strike me as game changing just because we haven't had it before.

Anything in a drill with your warlord - though why you'd take anything besides priests I dunno since they're so much better than the other options. You could also be Lucius and DS your warlord for 1CP then pop him down with your naturally DS units if you wanted.

The big draw-back of this strategy previously was that you have no realistic way to make the charge, either with your priests or with your drill, so they just sit there for a turn (probably still in the drill, which probably dies). Even with reroll charges it isn't reliable unless there's a way to get a +1 to charge in there too, but your chances are a lot better that can you hit that 9 inch charge with at least the drill OR the unit, if not both.

But even if you're starting stuff on the table, conga-lining back to auras is a core part of the gameplay of most combat factions.

This doesn't work with stuff like chaplains because you only get to roll for auras if you're on the board. But I don't see anything in these rules which says you can only pick your ability if you're on the board at the start of the turn. It says to add the rule to your datasheet until the end of the turn - a strange wording which would work whether the model is on the table at the start of the turn or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Auras generally affect the entire unit if it doesnt say "wholly within" so technically if the copter stops the effect of the aura, rather than the aura source, there wouldnt be a broken half-affected half-not affected problem. The stratagem itself is an aura (which begs another question of what happens when admech vs admech do this to each other lol)

Are you saying that this would result in the strat doing nothing if the 6" bubble doesn't fully cover the unit, for any aura that effects the whole unit? Take the re-roll charges, for example. The copter would have to cover the whole unit to stop the unit from getting re-roll charges? Or that it would stop the reroll charges as long as it hits a single model? Either way, do you first measure model-by-model to make sure that something in the unit that isn't within 6" of the copter is close enough to get the aura? I can see all these arguments being made based on the wording. It seems really unclear, and super clunky no matter how you rule it.

 DarkHound wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
The biggest thing isn't the ranged buff though IMO, it's that Ad Mech now has reroll charges, something it completely lacked before. This has a huge impact of the viability of Ad Mech combat units, and it was one of the main things holding them back previously.

I'm genuinely interested in how you plan to get a character within 6" of a pack of Dragoons or Infiltrators when they roll to Charge. It doesn't apply to Secutarii. I guess you can improve the charge of Electropriests and maybe Ruststalkers? It doesn't strike me as game changing just because we haven't had it before.

with dragoons its super easy. infiltrate the dragoons and the manipulus. move everything up the field and space the dragoons as far as possible so that at least 1 is within 6" of the manipulus. since they have huge bases and 2 rows can fight at the same time, they can easily all join combat even if one was trailing behind.

Same thing with electropriests except you slingshot them from a transport.
you only need 1 model within 6".