The long-awaited final Primarch in the Forge World Character Series is here at last, armoured in spectacularly detailed battle plate and striking a fittingly regal pose on his decorative base. Jaghatai Khan is one of the finest swordsmen in the galaxy, and his fearsome White Tiger Dao is as deadly as it is beautiful.
Of all his brothers, the Khan was the most accepting of the Great Crusade, travelling into the dark corners of the galaxy on a never-ending hunt for the Imperium’s deadliest foes. His presence is so inspiring to his White Scar sons that they surge forwards into battle with even greater vigour, and his masterful grasp of flanking manoeuvres allows him to deploy effortlessly across the battlefield.
I like how GW on one hand spams dozens of completely redundant, no models units for HH. In the last batch, we have yet another Inner Circle termie unit with slightly bigger swords, that for some reason is expert in fighting daemons despite seeing them for the first time plus extra cheese on top in getting to instant death everything, stubborn, bonus deny, rending, having +1 WS and overwatch with plasma guns despite being unit type specifically banned from being so for FREE.
Then we have destroyer squad that for some reason can take flamers pretty much making tactical support squads obsolete while wielding 3 weapons at once at very low weapon cost because screw having units that have any weaknesses. Note, I am not opposed to flamer destroyers, just execution is dumb (why not two flame pistols, for one, to fit the theme?). Why they swap pistols, not bolters, for heavy flamers? And why these are so expensive? And how sarge handles two two handed weapons and a pistol at the same time?
As dude I know commented, giving DA something from other wings (tank variant for the armored one, for example) instead of spamming the wing suffering from bloat even before, giving DG some sort of durable unit, or giving shattered legions ANYTHING (especially the one that was actually in this battle but was ignored for unit pick...) would be far more useful than what we got, but whatever.
Hey, GW, how about giving the same to 40K? We could use a few variant primaris units like SW hounds, you have no excuse to not do them after this. And fire the idiot who thought gluing one of dozens of power sword we already have to primaris units is VERBOTEN because that inept is sabotaging the whole army
Cant speak much on the Inner Circle Termies other than its dumb they are the same thing as the other ones, but in white armor, with different swords and one extra rule.
But for the Death Guard, you'd consider taking TSS squads over them because;
A: TSS are Cheaper than Poisoners
B: TSS are Troops not Elites
C: They can score, Poisoners cant.
But the Poisoners do have good options to counter that out a bit.
They're also cool and a very fluffy DG unit which is what HH is all about. I didn't bring 2 Malcadors and 2 Macharius to an event recently because they're optimal or meta, I did it because 4 large tanks surrounded by hordes of streaming cultists is awesome. The HH crowd loves its narrative, the Rule of Cool is heavily encouraged and for most people it's about the spectacle and story rather than winning all the points. It's why the WHW HH Tournament wasn't warmly received in the wider community compared to the narrative events usually run because power gaming and cheesemongering is generally looked down on.
I read those rules and thought, if only Psychic Awakening would have been like this. An interesting, grimdark narrative, some narrative missions and even models painted just for that free document. GW couldn't even paint some of the renegade Marines War of the Spider was about and instead just took Black Legion Marines they had lying around.
Meh, I'll believe it when they actually announce it. This would be at least the third time that they've done a preview since the Horus Heresy box leak that people thought "woo they're finally going to announce this", so forgive me for not getting my hopes up again.
Gert wrote: They're also cool and a very fluffy DG unit which is what HH is all about. I didn't bring 2 Malcadors and 2 Macharius to an event recently because they're optimal or meta, I did it because 4 large tanks surrounded by hordes of streaming cultists is awesome. The HH crowd loves its narrative, the Rule of Cool is heavily encouraged and for most people it's about the spectacle and story rather than winning all the points. It's why the WHW HH Tournament wasn't warmly received in the wider community compared to the narrative events usually run because power gaming and cheesemongering is generally looked down on.
I suppose that all depends on the area. I had friends here that said it started fluffy in the big groups and then turned into cheese mongering.
Here's hoping that theres a box announced at the event, but Im betting its Praetors for Legions with out, or a resize for Legions that do.
It definitely does but generally, I've found that the wider community both online and in-person likes to focus on narrative and authenticity compared to WAAC and meta listing. My group swung pretty hard into massive amounts of cheese before a lot of people just burned out and left which resulted in our group becoming smaller and more focused on running campaigns and the like.
JWBS wrote: Or could easily just be some resin Praetors or some chapter veterans or something.
It's very much likely just to be resin praetors or some other minor item like a new special character. They have another preview before the summer, so I'm not sure why they'd show the new box this far ahead, when they aren't likely to release it until the summer, or more likely, the fall, to coincide with the 35th anniversary of Rogue Trader's release.
Every single time we get Horus Heresy in the previews, people psyche themselves up like this.
JWBS wrote: Or could easily just be some resin Praetors or some chapter veterans or something.
It's very much likely just to be resin praetors or some other minor item like a new special character. They have another preview before the summer, so I'm not sure why they'd show the new box this far ahead, when they aren't likely to release it until the summer, or more likely, the fall, to coincide with the 35th anniversary of Rogue Trader's release.
Every single time we get Horus Heresy in the previews, people psyche themselves up like this.
It is understandable, considering how long it’s been since the leaks of the box. It’s rare we get leaks that early. (June last year, for the record). But I’m not expecting the box this weekend.
JWBS wrote: Or could easily just be some resin Praetors or some chapter veterans or something.
It's very much likely just to be resin praetors or some other minor item like a new special character. They have another preview before the summer, so I'm not sure why they'd show the new box this far ahead, when they aren't likely to release it until the summer, or more likely, the fall, to coincide with the 35th anniversary of Rogue Trader's release.
Every single time we get Horus Heresy in the previews, people psyche themselves up like this.
Yeah I'm thinking it's a minor reveal but the big drop is not beyond the realms of possibility imo.
This is completely from an outsider's perspective with no stake in the game, but The Horus Heresy comes across as a collectors range of swanky Primarch models rather than an actual game, which funnily enough is held in high regard.
I did like the fan efforts to take Kill Team 2018 into the Horus Heresy, which also included Titanicus-scale Knights.
chaos0xomega wrote: Meh, I'll believe it when they actually announce it. This would be at least the third time that they've done a preview since the Horus Heresy box leak that people thought "woo they're finally going to announce this", so forgive me for not getting my hopes up again.
Well lads, hate to say I told you so, but... I told you so.
Realistically, something like this HH box is going to either be the big summer release (ala 40k and AoS) or the big late summer/fall release (ala a number of other bigger products GW has done). In either case, January is probably far too soon for them to want to preview it.
SamusDrake wrote: This is completely from an outsider's perspective with no stake in the game, but The Horus Heresy comes across as a collectors range of swanky Primarch models rather than an actual game, which funnily enough is held in high regard.
I did like the fan efforts to take Kill Team 2018 into the Horus Heresy, which also included Titanicus-scale Knights.
That's because it was for a very long time. Until BaC and Prospero brought in plastic HH Marines you were dropping £120 just for 30 Tacticals with barebones equipment. Until GW makes it part of the regular catalogue it will remain as such.
chaos0xomega wrote: Meh, I'll believe it when they actually announce it. This would be at least the third time that they've done a preview since the Horus Heresy box leak that people thought "woo they're finally going to announce this", so forgive me for not getting my hopes up again.
Well lads, hate to say I told you so, but... I told you so.
Realistically, something like this HH box is going to either be the big summer release (ala 40k and AoS) or the big late summer/fall release (ala a number of other bigger products GW has done). In either case, January is probably far too soon for them to want to preview it.
Has gw ever released anything big game system in feb-april period? As that's all any preview here would show.
SamusDrake wrote: This is completely from an outsider's perspective with no stake in the game, but The Horus Heresy comes across as a collectors range of swanky Primarch models rather than an actual game, which funnily enough is held in high regard.
I did like the fan efforts to take Kill Team 2018 into the Horus Heresy, which also included Titanicus-scale Knights.
That's because it was for a very long time. Until BaC and Prospero brought in plastic HH Marines you were dropping £120 just for 30 Tacticals with barebones equipment. Until GW makes it part of the regular catalogue it will remain as such.
Even this isn't very accurate. Forge World itself used to support the game quite well, but then Alan died and the whole thing sort of collapsed in on itself. Since then, we've entered into a phase of one off praetors and random characters. This is part of the reason why the HH community is both so desperate for real attention from the company and also why they're generally jaded (I also put this down to the game being pretty big in Australia, where GW seems to do a miserable job with pricing).
With all of that being said, their incredibly slow edging of the community with yet another teaser in the form of this new, mediocre logo (who thought that was an improvement on the last one? I must assume someone at corporate given that they've shoe-horned in their big brand name into it for name appeal) would seem to indicate that the relaunch is happening this year. So that's something.
Though, personally, I'm now more skeptical about this relaunch after seeing how they manage 40k and necromunda. If it's going to be a trickle of a million books with add-on cards, consider me uninterested.
Even this isn't very accurate. Forge World itself used to support the game quite well, but then Alan died and the whole thing sort of collapsed in on itself. Since then, we've entered into a phase of one off praetors and random characters. This is part of the reason why the HH community is both so desperate for real attention from the company and also why they're generally jaded (I also put this down to the game being pretty big in Australia, where GW seems to do a miserable job with pricing).
With all of that being said, their incredibly slow edging of the community with yet another teaser in the form of this new, mediocre logo (who thought that was an improvement on the last one? I must assume someone at corporate given that they've shoe-horned in their big brand name into it for name appeal) would seem to indicate that the relaunch is happening this year. So that's something.
Though, personally, I'm now more skeptical about this relaunch after seeing how they manage 40k and necromunda. If it's going to be a trickle of a million books with add-on cards, consider me uninterested.
But it was still a FW game and FW is the producer of the more advanced collector's items of the Warhammer range, at least until recently. To get started in HH you had to work with resin or do a hell of a lot of conversion work making it a system aimed at established hobbyists rather than new starts. FW gave it loads of attention, yes, but the vast majority of Legion kits were already there thanks to previous IA books. The fact that the system has a massive focus on narrative over gameplay is also another factor IMO and has created a community that encourages the creative side of the hobby rather than finding super good OP combos to win all the tournaments. When I can walk into a GW store and buy a starter set for HH then I will accept that it's no longer a system for established hobbyists/collectors.
SamusDrake wrote: This is completely from an outsider's perspective with no stake in the game, but The Horus Heresy comes across as a collectors range of swanky Primarch models rather than an actual game, which funnily enough is held in high regard.
I did like the fan efforts to take Kill Team 2018 into the Horus Heresy, which also included Titanicus-scale Knights.
Honestly, that pretty obviously has been the business plan for a few years now...selling big centerpiece and character models to existing HH 'whales'. The focus definitely hasn't been on bringing in new players or really even supporting those new players. Maybe that's all going to change dramatically...but we'll see.
Holy random boss NPC, Batman! Is this guy so big in the Horus Heresy books that they think he needs a dedicated model? And does that mean we're now also getting to look forward to a round of other greater daemons for Forge World to milk now that the Primarchs are done?
chaos0xomega wrote: Meh, I'll believe it when they actually announce it. This would be at least the third time that they've done a preview since the Horus Heresy box leak that people thought "woo they're finally going to announce this", so forgive me for not getting my hopes up again.
Well lads, hate to say I told you so, but... I told you so.
Realistically, something like this HH box is going to either be the big summer release (ala 40k and AoS) or the big late summer/fall release (ala a number of other bigger products GW has done). In either case, January is probably far too soon for them to want to preview it.
Yeah, as the likely big summer release the only uncertainty here is if we get a teaserish reveal at Adepticon and the full reveal at Warhammer Fest, or just the reveal at Warhammer Fest.
Geifer wrote: Holy random boss NPC, Batman! Is this guy so big in the Horus Heresy books that they think he needs a dedicated model? And does that mean we're now also getting to look forward to a round of other greater daemons for Forge World to milk now that the Primarchs are done?
Ka'Bandha was responsible for bringing forth the Red Thirst in the Blood Angels and may also have been the initial trigger of the Black Rage. He is the Doom of the Blood Angels and his greatest goal is to either turn them to the service of Khorne or to annihilate them and place their skulls at the foot of his master's throne.
BA are my favourite. Damn shame they're written by Swallow, I haven't read anything about them in years. Kinda bizarre they don't really have any HH books where they're the sole focus do they?
JWBS wrote: BA are my favourite. Damn shame they're written by Swallow, I haven't read anything about them in years. Kinda bizarre they don't really have any HH books where they're the sole focus do they?
Yeah, Fear To Tread, but as you say it’s Swallow and not great.
JWBS wrote: BA are my favourite. Damn shame they're written by Swallow, I haven't read anything about them in years. Kinda bizarre they don't really have any HH books where they're the sole focus do they?
You mean like the one where this daemon appears and duels first time with sanquinus?
Even this isn't very accurate. Forge World itself used to support the game quite well, but then Alan died and the whole thing sort of collapsed in on itself. Since then, we've entered into a phase of one off praetors and random characters. This is part of the reason why the HH community is both so desperate for real attention from the company and also why they're generally jaded (I also put this down to the game being pretty big in Australia, where GW seems to do a miserable job with pricing).
With all of that being said, their incredibly slow edging of the community with yet another teaser in the form of this new, mediocre logo (who thought that was an improvement on the last one? I must assume someone at corporate given that they've shoe-horned in their big brand name into it for name appeal) would seem to indicate that the relaunch is happening this year. So that's something.
Though, personally, I'm now more skeptical about this relaunch after seeing how they manage 40k and necromunda. If it's going to be a trickle of a million books with add-on cards, consider me uninterested.
But it was still a FW game and FW is the producer of the more advanced collector's items of the Warhammer range, at least until recently. To get started in HH you had to work with resin or do a hell of a lot of conversion work making it a system aimed at established hobbyists rather than new starts. FW gave it loads of attention, yes, but the vast majority of Legion kits were already there thanks to previous IA books. The fact that the system has a massive focus on narrative over gameplay is also another factor IMO and has created a community that encourages the creative side of the hobby rather than finding super good OP combos to win all the tournaments. When I can walk into a GW store and buy a starter set for HH then I will accept that it's no longer a system for established hobbyists/collectors.
I think what I was responding to was the original poster saying it was just feature models and primarchs.
When the game was first released we had a huge slew of releases that covered everything from 5 different marks of armoured space marines, new bikes, new speeders, a whole range of a variety of tanks, at least two unique units for most legions, etc. The release schedule has really tapered off in the last few years. We've still received some new units, especially for those newer legions in the release list. But lately, it has largely been special characters and praetors.
This new daemon is a cool model, for sure. But I would argue it doesn't feel like the horus heresy release most people want. It's a huge collectors piece, but not something the vast majority of HH players will want to add to their army.
Geifer wrote: Holy random boss NPC, Batman! Is this guy so big in the Horus Heresy books that they think he needs a dedicated model? And does that mean we're now also getting to look forward to a round of other greater daemons for Forge World to milk now that the Primarchs are done?
Ka'Bandha was responsible for bringing forth the Red Thirst in the Blood Angels and may also have been the initial trigger of the Black Rage. He is the Doom of the Blood Angels and his greatest goal is to either turn them to the service of Khorne or to annihilate them and place their skulls at the foot of his master's throne.
So, completly irrelevant to the absolute majority?
Geifer wrote: Holy random boss NPC, Batman! Is this guy so big in the Horus Heresy books that they think he needs a dedicated model? And does that mean we're now also getting to look forward to a round of other greater daemons for Forge World to milk now that the Primarchs are done?
Ka'Bandha was responsible for bringing forth the Red Thirst in the Blood Angels and may also have been the initial trigger of the Black Rage. He is the Doom of the Blood Angels and his greatest goal is to either turn them to the service of Khorne or to annihilate them and place their skulls at the foot of his master's throne.
So, completly irrelevant to the absolute majority?
Always true of special characters, which honestly makes FW a better place for them.
Nah, it'll give him an opportunity to do more "The Horus Heresy starter will be revealed soon" type videos.
Yup, they will have an asanine title like "DID GW TEASE HORUS HERESY RIGHT UNDER OUR NOSES?" or "WE MAY FINALLY HAVE A RELEASE DAY FOR HORUS HERESY", and it'll be a 9 minute video of him using a lot of words to say nothing of substance.
The reason why they should reveal the box, even if it was not due to be released soon, is that people anticipating it ruins all their other reveals. People want to see the box, so every reveal which is not that is a disappointment, even if it was something pretty cool.
Crimson wrote: The reason why they should reveal the box, even if it was not due to be released soon, is that people anticipating it ruins all their other reveals. People want to see the box, so every reveal which is not that is a disappointment, even if it was something pretty cool.
I wonder what percentage of the HH player base has seen the leaked set though?
Furthermore, I think being perpetually disappointed is just part of being a HH player. I think it's even in the rule-book somewhere...
Geifer wrote: Holy random boss NPC, Batman! Is this guy so big in the Horus Heresy books that they think he needs a dedicated model? And does that mean we're now also getting to look forward to a round of other greater daemons for Forge World to milk now that the Primarchs are done?
Ka'Bandha was responsible for bringing forth the Red Thirst in the Blood Angels and may also have been the initial trigger of the Black Rage. He is the Doom of the Blood Angels and his greatest goal is to either turn them to the service of Khorne or to annihilate them and place their skulls at the foot of his master's throne.
So, completly irrelevant to the absolute majority?
Unless you run a demon army and want a centerpiece. Or are you now saying they should only ever do Space Marines.
Crimson wrote: The reason why they should reveal the box, even if it was not due to be released soon, is that people anticipating it ruins all their other reveals. People want to see the box, so every reveal which is not that is a disappointment, even if it was something pretty cool.
Do not, my friends, become addicted to leaks. They will take hold of you, and you will resent their absence!
Geifer wrote: Holy random boss NPC, Batman! Is this guy so big in the Horus Heresy books that they think he needs a dedicated model? And does that mean we're now also getting to look forward to a round of other greater daemons for Forge World to milk now that the Primarchs are done?
Ka'Bandha was responsible for bringing forth the Red Thirst in the Blood Angels and may also have been the initial trigger of the Black Rage. He is the Doom of the Blood Angels and his greatest goal is to either turn them to the service of Khorne or to annihilate them and place their skulls at the foot of his master's throne.
So, completly irrelevant to the absolute majority?
He fought Sanquinius at the Eternity gate. It is an iconic part of the Siege of Terra. In other words if you care about HH then he is not irrelevant.
Its true, recent leaks have really sucked me in in a way that I haven't been in a very long time because of the absence of them. Leaks drive speculation and hype in a manner which can actually be addictive.
Theophony wrote: Unless you run a demon army and want a centerpiece. Or are you now saying they should only ever do Space Marines.
I really like that complaint as demons, particularly Khorne, swim in centrepieces (Kabandha, Anggrath, Skarbrand, plus 3 different types of Bloodthirster, allowing you to field six different Greater Daemons before you need to repeat, not to mention system specific stuff like Vorgaroth the Scarred, and more Khornate demon princes than generic primaris Lts) while SM, especially primaris, sit at big fat ZERO. Well, I guess you can bring converted baneblade if you shell for extra expensive, direct-order-from-UK book. Gee, that suuure sounds equal!
So, completly irrelevant to the absolute majority?
Just like every special character that's not part of your specific faction. Wind your neck in and find something else to complain about.
This. At least this guy is still around in the lore and appears in 40k. I think he's also pretty recognizable (at least name wise, he's not as unique looking as skarbrand). It's not like every HH character they release is so huge or important primarch-like figure.
Is Armillus Dynat not also an irrelevant character?
Archmagos Draykavac?
Hvral Redblade?
There are so many pointless 30k characters that get released over the "big" names. I'd even wage Saul didn't necessarily need a model, and he's pretty relevant.
Gert wrote: Can you name 5 characters that have rules but no model that are important parts of a campaign/story?
Why does that matter? He’s not even that important to the story. We aren’t at the Siege yet.
Are you sure that they aren't? With the novels being there already and the opportunity for some cross-promotion? Unless I missed it, the studio hasn't given any guidance regarding what's coming next in terms of campaign books, factions, etc. I don't see how you can rule out the possibility that the next phase for HH is the Siege.
Thing is though Geek, if we had seen "Other stuff", it would just be a Nightlords Praetor or some other irrelevant thing like that. Personally I don't mind that it was this huge bloodthirster, it's about as irrelevant to me as any other FWHH reveal they might have given us.
Gert wrote: Can you name 5 characters that have rules but no model that are important parts of a campaign/story?
Salamanders Praetor
Raven Guard Praetor
Iron Warriors Praetor and Destroyers
The Militia range in general, not just characters but everything else more or less.
Slaanesh and Tzeetch Heralds (the gods aren't called this but there are already Nugle and Khorne ones so it's easier to keep the names)
Probably more but these are off the top of my head.
JWBS wrote: Thing is though Geek, if we had seen "Other stuff", it would just be a Nightlords Praetor or some other irrelevant thing like that. Personally I don't mind that it was this huge bloodthirster, it's about as irrelevant to me as any other FWHH reveal they might have given us.
Well not Night Lords as they’ve got theirs, but I’m looking forward to seeing the Praetors for the remaining legions, they’ve been on a damn good run with them.
Salamanders Praetor
Raven Guard Praetor
Iron Warriors Praetor and Destroyers
The Militia range in general, not just characters but everything else more or less.
Slaanesh and Tzeetch Heralds (the gods aren't called this but there are already Nugle and Khorne ones so it's easier to keep the names)
Probably more but these are off the top of my head.
None of those are named characters which was the specific critcism.
But to give a reply;
Yes, at some point.
Yes, at some point.
Yes, at some point.
No, because there isn't supposed to be a Militia range, the whole point of that army is maximum creative freedom.
No, because the FW Daemon Princes are named characters in 40k and the Heralds were made prior to actual GW herald models of which there are multiple in plastic.
Salamanders Praetor
Raven Guard Praetor
Iron Warriors Praetor and Destroyers
The Militia range in general, not just characters but everything else more or less.
Slaanesh and Tzeetch Heralds (the gods aren't called this but there are already Nugle and Khorne ones so it's easier to keep the names)
Probably more but these are off the top of my head.
None of those are named characters which was the specific critcism. But to give a reply;
Yes, at some point.
Yes, at some point.
Yes, at some point.
No, because there isn't supposed to be a Militia range, the whole point of that army is maximum creative freedom.
No, because the FW Daemon Princes are named characters in 40k and the Heralds were made prior to actual GW herald models of which there are multiple in plastic.
It wasn’t, actually, I said ‘characters and units’
Why would HH players be happy with a single setting neutral demon model? Literally anything in power armour would be more useful to more players than Ka'Bandha.
JSG wrote: Why would HH players be happy with a single setting neutral demon model? Literally anything in power armour would be more useful to more players than Ka'Bandha.
The HH audience is more about collecting than playing anyway. They know who’s buying their expensive resin. That’s why Im still skeptical regarding exactly how “core” or “mainstream” HH will become.
I agree. This daemon thing will appeal to loyalists, traitors, collectors, painters, everyone (to some extent). Some random Alpha Legion / Thousand Sons Praetor? Nobody cares. They'll sell 1000 units and then it will be relegated to the crypts of irrelevance.
As long as they keep the Destroyers in stock and don't pull the rug on them when the next edition comes out, I'm great with this. Destroyers are awesome.
I like how destroyers are basically 30K reivers, only the 30K rule writer actually has a clue unlike 40K hack and tries to make the different chapter spins interesting (and also recognizes, unlike his inept 40K counterpart, that no one is afraid of 5-10 bolters or combat knives for the points tag and actually tries to give them tools to do their job). Hey, GW, how about telling that dude to fix reivers instead of wasting his time pointlessly doing 757395 versions of the same HH unit? Especially seeing you'd sell tons of plastic if you fired the dude sabotaging 40K rules and no amount of putting lipstick on a pig will really sell FW resin at current prices, at best you will funnel more money to thieves?
beast_gts wrote: Bit odd that the side of the boxes is so different, but they could just be mock-ups.
Not 'could', they are blatant 3D renders. Much easier and simpler than messing with photos of the real thing.
Irbis wrote: I like how destroyers are basically 30K reivers, only the 30K rule writer actually has a clue unlike 40K hack and tries to make the different chapter spins interesting (and also recognizes, unlike his inept 40K counterpart, that no one is afraid of 5-10 bolters or combat knives for the points tag and actually tries to give them tools to do their job). Hey, GW, how about telling that dude to fix reivers instead of wasting his time pointlessly doing 757395 versions of the same HH unit? Especially seeing you'd sell tons of plastic if you fired the dude sabotaging 40K rules and no amount of putting lipstick on a pig will really sell FW resin at current prices, at best you will funnel more money to thieves?
beast_gts wrote: Bit odd that the side of the boxes is so different, but they could just be mock-ups.
Not 'could', they are blatant 3D renders. Much easier and simpler than messing with photos of the real thing.
I don't really see any similarity between Reivers and Destroyers. Destroyers are special weapons squads that specialize in highly dangerous and forbidden weaponry/technology and a penchant for dual-wielding pistols. Reivers are just infiltrating close combat commando types that don't know how to do their job well.
Irbis wrote: I like how destroyers are basically 30K reivers, only the 30K rule writer actually has a clue unlike 40K hack and tries to make the different chapter spins interesting (and also recognizes, unlike his inept 40K counterpart, that no one is afraid of 5-10 bolters or combat knives for the points tag and actually tries to give them tools to do their job). Hey, GW, how about telling that dude to fix reivers instead of wasting his time pointlessly doing 757395 versions of the same HH unit? Especially seeing you'd sell tons of plastic if you fired the dude sabotaging 40K rules and no amount of putting lipstick on a pig will really sell FW resin at current prices, at best you will funnel more money to thieves?
beast_gts wrote: Bit odd that the side of the boxes is so different, but they could just be mock-ups.
Not 'could', they are blatant 3D renders. Much easier and simpler than messing with photos of the real thing.
Reivers are just infiltrating close combat commando types that don't know how to do their job well.
And yet, wearing Lego-tier skull masks somehow makes them more intimidating than the Night Lords.
a Dragon from the Niebelungenlied / Völsunga-Saga who got slain by Siegfried / Sigurdr. The Story is associated with the (Norse and Western) Germanic Folklore and Mythology.
Otherwise the name can be associated with german folklore - some Imperial Fists in the past had german Names.
Apparently it comes from one of the IF Discords - and IIRC while baby Fafnir was found on Inwit it doesn't actually say he was born there (which is people grasping at straws).
He's not from Dorn's tribe, and he's not a Terran recruit which is why he's not a 'typical' Fist.
"via a source on Faeit 212
The release of HH was delayed to Summer 2022.
GW have still some issues with their printings from oversea which hurts
their release schedules. They started to build up capacities to print
in-house again but this will need some time.
Their releases lie already 11 months behind their plannings from before
covid."
Dang, nearly a full year's worth of delays. It's kind of hard to imagine.
Fafnir is pretty awesome and for some reason I really have been itching to paint some Epic scale Imperial Fists recently. I think I need to get that mini.
Is he Primaris sized or CSM size or what, has anyone done scale comparisons? I'm really bad at eyeballing such things from photos (or even my 3d slicer program so I make stuff the wrong size, but with physical minis I'm great at it weirdly), but he looks better proportioned and wqy bigger than the Mk III plastics, right.
That's a weird in between where you'd still have to saw and expand legs to get rid of stumpy legs, right? GW should just make all (C)SM with Primaris size and proportions.
Binabik15 wrote: That's a weird in between where you'd still have to saw and expand legs to get rid of stumpy legs, right? GW should just make all (C)SM with Primaris size and proportions.
Binabik15 wrote: Is he Primaris sized or CSM size or what, has anyone done scale comparisons? I'm really bad at eyeballing such things from photos (or even my 3d slicer program so I make stuff the wrong size, but with physical minis I'm great at it weirdly), but he looks better proportioned and wqy bigger than the Mk III plastics, right.
According to someone in a HH painting group on FB group who got their hands on the models early for that warcom article, they're CSM size
drbored wrote: "via a source on Faeit 212
The release of HH was delayed to Summer 2022.
GW have still some issues with their printings from oversea which hurts
their release schedules. They started to build up capacities to print
in-house again but this will need some time.
Their releases lie already 11 months behind their plannings from before
covid."
This is somewhat believable. Though we never really had a hard date on when the set was supposed to come out, regardless of covid and shipping woes.
Binabik15 wrote: Is he Primaris sized or CSM size or what, has anyone done scale comparisons? I'm really bad at eyeballing such things from photos (or even my 3d slicer program so I make stuff the wrong size, but with physical minis I'm great at it weirdly), but he looks better proportioned and wqy bigger than the Mk III plastics, right.
According to someone in a HH painting group on FB group who got their hands on the models early for that warcom article, they're CSM size
Based on this rough comparison I threw together, looks like he's the "newscale" size they're using for non-Primaris Marines. Which I'm delighted with; I think the Primaris are kinda goofily oversized and could use a Lieutenant for my newscale Firstborn Crimson Fists project.
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post: Now I just hope they hurry up and get those MkVI marines released too. Shame we're probably stuck with the old MkIII/IV guys for the foreseeable.
drbored wrote: "via a source on Faeit 212
The release of HH was delayed to Summer 2022.
GW have still some issues with their printings from oversea which hurts
their release schedules. They started to build up capacities to print
in-house again but this will need some time.
Their releases lie already 11 months behind their plannings from before
covid."
This is somewhat believable. Though we never really had a hard date on when the set was supposed to come out, regardless of covid and shipping woes.
The last credible date that people were slinging about was last November, but that came and went and here we are.
CragHack wrote: If it is summer, they could've at least hinted it. Like they did with Sigmar books. Showed like 4 or 6 six of them?
GW has been playing their reveals very tight to the chest, only things that are about a month and a half out at longest. Last thing they want to do is tease something and have it not come out for 6+ months and have people asking 'where x or y?' for that entire time.
Also, when people are expecting something further out, they tend to hold onto their money for that release. As long as things are vague and we don't have any concrete dates, customers are more likely to buy whatever the shiny new release is in that moment, rather than wait for something they're not sure about.
An Edition launch is a bit bigger than Battletome or Codex roadmaps though. The leak was now clearly something waaaaay early on in the cycle and if the product simply isn't ready there's nothing to be done. No point in hyping if the product isn't sellable.
It is cool. I just hope (unreasonably) that it's not to let the blood flow toward the hilt for easier sipping because all Blood Angels are space vampires now unfortunately.
Fafnir looks like a boss. Since these are plastics, are they supposed to be available through the normal GW webstore? Or do you have to faff about (pun intended) with currency conversion/VAT/sorcery over on the FW site? It's been many years since my last FW order.
warboss wrote: Since these are plastics, are they supposed to be available through the normal GW webstore? Or do you have to faff about (pun intended) with currency conversion/VAT/sorcery over on the FW site? It's been many years since my last FW order.
Both models are available from GW website as soon as pre-orders go live at your region.
I am not sure if it's the sculpt or paintjob (or both) but I am not impressed by either model, to be honest.
Mr_Rose wrote: Am I misremembering something or didn’t the first incarnation of the Minotaurs chapter use back-to-back axes as their chapter symbol or something?
I can't exclude it but at least going back to RT they had a horned bull head of some kind.
warboss wrote: It is cool. I just hope (unreasonably) that it's not to let the blood flow toward the hilt for easier sipping because all Blood Angels are space vampires now unfortunately.
Nah, they're 'Tears of the Afflicted', ball bearings that run up and down inside the blade. They're a real thing, found most commonly in Asian swords. People used to think they added extra momentum on the downstroke by running towards the tip of the blade, but consensus now is that they were purely ornamental.
Just preordered Zephon. The sprue pic was an unexpected treat, this guy is 100% compatible for multpart marine kitbashing
Wouldn't be too hard to make the model a generic Jump Pack Captain with a relic blade, aside from the right leg, which would require a bit of converting..
Mr_Rose wrote: Am I misremembering something or didn’t the first incarnation of the Minotaurs chapter use back-to-back axes as their chapter symbol or something?
You may be mixing them up with the Executioners, who are an IF successor with Rann as their founding Chapter Master.
Mr_Rose wrote: Am I misremembering something or didn’t the first incarnation of the Minotaurs chapter use back-to-back axes as their chapter symbol or something?
You may be mixing them up with the Executioners, who are an IF successor with Rann as their founding Chapter Master.
Ah yes, that’s probably it, thanks. I knew that logo was an IF successor but I didn’t know that this guy was their first chapter master, thanks.
Does Fafnir wear his bolt pistol holster over his butt crack? I see he has one on the sprue (no actual older style bolter?) but I don't see it clearly on the 360 image of the model (although I am on mobile so might be missing it... Can't zoom in on the 360 pic).
Ok, Fafnir looks like it'de be no a huge deal to saw through his tighs and get some lenght in there. The plates cover up enough in case it makes his thighs looks gangly. I thought it was a resin mini, heh. Painting IFs is really calling to me right now, so I guess I'll buy a GW character clampack for the first time since... I dunno, three years or so.
Imperial Fists hero leading a ragtag band of Imperial and Crimaon Fists and Black Templars through the heart (or aftermath?) of some titanic conflict sounds nice. Is there a nice little blurb about a remarkable conflict involving all three chapters that wasn't Black Library'd into a trilogy waxing about the shoe size and breakfast preferences of each heroic hero SM doing hero things? Just enough to get the ideas flowing. Or I'll just go with "they came together for punitive action against the Ork empire of Waaagh-I-can't-remember-right-now - it went badly".
Already got half a dozen shooty CF converted from when I had the urge to make my Primaris from multiple sets into character units for a ton of chapters.
IF could be breachers (CC and a melta and flamer guy maybe) and maybe a Termi. For the Templars I'm stumped, mostly scout dudes to contrast with the other chapters, maybe? I really love the massive bling of their Sword Brethren, but then they might outbling Fafnir and the Fists and draw all the attention.
I really like how IF dude has hands separate so you don't need to cut through wrist protectors to swap weapons. Something that is basically not needed at all (though nice) in special character sprue yet generic SM dudes from last 5 years or so who actually can swap gear have gak design with hands clipping right into protector, making swaps nearly impossible without rocket surgery. Bravo GW
Binabik15 wrote: Imperial Fists hero leading a ragtag band of Imperial and Crimaon Fists and Black Templars through the heart (or aftermath?) of some titanic conflict sounds nice. Is there a nice little blurb about a remarkable conflict involving all three chapters that wasn't Black Library'd into a trilogy waxing about the shoe size and breakfast preferences of each heroic hero SM doing hero things? Just enough to get the ideas flowing. Or I'll just go with "they came together for punitive action against the Ork empire of Waaagh-I-can't-remember-right-now - it went badly".
War of the Beast, for one? Then there was the whole Vandire thing, where Daughters kicked arse of the entire BT/IF/other misc IF successors strike force so hard Custodes had to resort to diplomacy to make them stand down
Binabik15 wrote: Ok, Fafnir looks like it'de be no a huge deal to saw through his tighs and get some lenght in there. The plates cover up enough in case it makes his thighs looks gangly. I thought it was a resin mini, heh. Painting IFs is really calling to me right now, so I guess I'll buy a GW character clampack for the first time since... I dunno, three years or so.
Imperial Fists hero leading a ragtag band of Imperial and Crimaon Fists and Black Templars through the heart (or aftermath?) of some titanic conflict sounds nice. Is there a nice little blurb about a remarkable conflict involving all three chapters that wasn't Black Library'd into a trilogy waxing about the shoe size and breakfast preferences of each heroic hero SM doing hero things? Just enough to get the ideas flowing. Or I'll just go with "they came together for punitive action against the Ork empire of Waaagh-I-can't-remember-right-now - it went badly".
Already got half a dozen shooty CF converted from when I had the urge to make my Primaris from multiple sets into character units for a ton of chapters.
IF could be breachers (CC and a melta and flamer guy maybe) and maybe a Termi. For the Templars I'm stumped, mostly scout dudes to contrast with the other chapters, maybe? I really love the massive bling of their Sword Brethren, but then they might outbling Fafnir and the Fists and draw all the attention.
You could set your force in some conflict post 3rd Founding when Fafnir would be the Chapter Master for the Executioners.
You wouldn't get to paint him in yellow (if you're going for accuracy), but it would certainly make for an interesting reason to give him a glow-up with more bling.
Valrak just posted this on B&C, so usual salt required:
Been sent a big chunk of stuff regarding rules, going to be reading it this week and hopefully will have something up by the end of this week, one thing that stands out straight away is basically another 'phase' has been added called, Reactions, seems very interesting.
zedmeister wrote: Valrak just posted this on B&C, so usual salt required:
Been sent a big chunk of stuff regarding rules, going to be reading it þis week and hopefully will have someþing up by þe end of þis week, one þing þat stands out straight away is basically anoþer 'phase' has been added called, Reactions, seems very interesting.
I'm very curious to see what GW does with the HH. There's a big chunk of the player base that will flip the table if they change things too much, but you've got to believe that GW is itching to disrupt the game to create more of a market for add-ons as they're doing with their other games.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: I'm very curious to see what GW does with the HH. There's a big chunk of the player base that will flip the table if they change things too much, but you've got to believe that GW is itching to disrupt the game to create more of a market for add-ons as they're doing with their other games.
Hoping it's an evolution of the existing system, incorporating improvements. I think some of the fear is around having 30k join the relentless 40k treadmill...
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: I'm very curious to see what GW does with the HH. There's a big chunk of the player base that will flip the table if they change things too much, but you've got to believe that GW is itching to disrupt the game to create more of a market for add-ons as they're doing with their other games.
What do you mean by add-ons? Like supplements and campaign books?
zedmeister wrote: Valrak just posted this on B&C, so usual salt required:
Been sent a big chunk of stuff regarding rules, going to be reading it þis week and hopefully will have someþing up by þe end of þis week, one þing þat stands out straight away is basically anoþer 'phase' has been added called, Reactions, seems very interesting.
I'm very curious to see what GW does with the HH. There's a big chunk of the player base that will flip the table if they change things too much, but you've got to believe that GW is itching to disrupt the game to create more of a market for add-ons as they're doing with their other games.
Current rumours point to it adapting the Titanicus approach of more frequent, smaller splatbooks.
Now I actually like Titanicus and quite enjoy the splats. They do feel like they generally add to the game without bloating it too much, providing options and decent fluff without drowning the game. Whether or not GW/FW can contain themselves and manage to not completely kill 30k by adopting a far more aggressively 40k-esq approach (Vigilus, CA, etc) remains to be seen.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: I'm very curious to see what GW does with the HH. There's a big chunk of the player base that will flip the table if they change things too much, but you've got to believe that GW is itching to disrupt the game to create more of a market for add-ons as they're doing with their other games.
Hoping it's an evolution of the existing system, incorporating improvements. I think some of the fear is around having 30k join the relentless 40k treadmill...
Indeed. I've been having that fear myself, so much so that I'm even thinking over dropping future heresy if GW does slot a treadmill under our feets. However, I do have hope. Petitioner's City posted this on B&C:
So I think the big answer is given to us on a monthly basis, namely Andy Hoare. Now he manages six games (AT, AI, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, The Old World and Heresy). Given that Andy Hoare runs heresy, I think it's pretty clear its his team of rules writers who will also be working on Heresy (especially given that they work on one heresy game, already!). That's:
- Barnes (whose career includes as mentioned above a lot of FFG work with Hoare and Bligh, and since joining SG, Necromunda, AI, AT, under Hoare).
- Jonathan Taylor-Yorke (very prominent in SG media about 2017-19 for ATand Necromunda, but also one of the leads on AI and BB 2nd edition last year; his facebook currently shows a lot of Old World love too)
- Tom Clarke (who joined SG in March 2018, after leaving his Phd - check out his Twitter, this great Voxcast interview. You can also read his Grandmaster series on AT.)
Barnes, JTY and Clarke have consistently worked together on the other SG games - AI, AT, Necromunda and Blood Bowl - under Andy Hoare. So it makes sense - after Hoare took over Heresy in the year prior to the pandemic (after the 2019 weekender when he isn't in the Heresy seminars, or at the latest after Anuj Malhotra had his final day in November 2020) - they also moved "over" to work on HH, as they also seem to be doing for TOW.
TBH, I am not sure if Wyllie are still with FW, though, but Anuj's message does suggest that he still was at the end of 2020. However it is clear now that his former co-writer, Hoare, is his boss, if he is still in the studio. And Hoare doesn't seem like the person to leave Neil alone on the project, especially as he has the aforementioned "team" of reliable collaborators who were (and potentially still are) seemingly in the same room (if Hewitt's description of FW from 2017 is correct - "Forge World, everyone is all in one room.")
and
But more seriously, I play - and rewrite for my group - Necromunda, I love the old (sometimes spotty) FFG books, and am very familiar with their (often flawed, yet still brilliant) work.
But for me thats ok. What matters always is the world building and imagination of the games - and that’s something SG have in spades. You see what this has done with Necromunda - where the FFG supplement approach hasn't yielded a strong game, per se, but such a strong world-building that emulates a RPG model. Despite the former, and perhaps because of the latter, people build and play, irrespective of the game's shaky state, and it's become a huge success. AI and AT and BB don't have a patch on how messy Necromunda is, but overall each are strong games - if not "competitive" or "perfect" games, as such. But as we know, neither quite was heresy itself.
I guess heresy has the issue of somehow being both a fluff-driven, primarily campaign-playtested, non-competitve game - and a competitive game where people extensively mathshammer everything about it so as to create the most monster lists possible.
In Necromunda the game breaks I think when the latter occurs - when gangs with too many credits buy things with too many flawed or ott rules and make too easy monsters. However, the errant rules can just be "for he arbitrator" to smooth over, but that becomes harder the larger the game, the more reticent the playing group to such changes or the more competitive the environment.
It will be cool to see where the game goes, and what the studio's inclination is - and if those rumoured three ways to play really come into the game.
Dysartes wrote: OK, I give, what's with the weird characters in that quoted post?
It's the letter/linguistic symbol for the English 'th' sound.
Why it's there I don't know...
EDIT: I went and refreshed my memory, in addition to the above the "þ" is called "thorn" and was used in various Scandinavian languages and old English prior to the digraph "th".
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: I'm very curious to see what GW does with the HH. There's a big chunk of the player base that will flip the table if they change things too much, but you've got to believe that GW is itching to disrupt the game to create more of a market for add-ons as they're doing with their other games.
What do you mean by add-ons? Like supplements and campaign books?
As others have stated, book churn. Just look at what the state of necromunda is. I was also thinking of things like the endless release of add-on cards as well.
jojo_monkey_boy wrote: As others have stated, book churn. Just look at what the state of necromunda is. I was also thinking of things like the endless release of add-on cards as well.
I don't get the book churn complaint about Necromunda. From what I've seen there's a good amount of time between each book that expands specifically on individual gangs and the only reason I could see it being a problem is if you're playing every single gang in the game. The length of time jumps between a month and 6 between certain releases as well. Also, what do you mean by cards? The tactics cards?
I would also argue that Necromunda was built from the ground up to be a new game with entirely new models and options. Heresy just isn't that. All 18 Legions have their rules plus Shattered and Blackshields, there are rules for Cults + Militia, Solar Auxilia, Knights, the Mechanicum, and the Titan Legions. All the Primarchs have been released alongside special units and characters for every single Legion. If you're looking for a comparable game look at MESBG, something that builds on the previous editions of the game with releases tied to specific books and the armies all available in compendiums. That's the route I believe GW will go for with HH when it happens.
Arbitrator wrote: Previous BL models had the one print run and then went to direct only I thought? So limited for third party, but you could still get them.
That would be good. What a waste it would be to make these models and not sell them.
Indeed. I've been having that fear myself, so much so that I'm even thinking over dropping future heresy if GW does slot a treadmill under our feets. However, I do have hope. Petitioner's City posted this on B&C:
So I think the big answer is given to us on a monthly basis, namely Andy Hoare. Now he manages six games (AT, AI, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, The Old World and Heresy). Given that Andy Hoare runs heresy, I think it's pretty clear its his team of rules writers who will also be working on Heresy (especially given that they work on one heresy game, already!). That's:
- Barnes (whose career includes as mentioned above a lot of FFG work with Hoare and Bligh, and since joining SG, Necromunda, AI, AT, under Hoare).
- Jonathan Taylor-Yorke (very prominent in SG media about 2017-19 for ATand Necromunda, but also one of the leads on AI and BB 2nd edition last year; his facebook currently shows a lot of Old World love too)
- Tom Clarke (who joined SG in March 2018, after leaving his Phd - check out his Twitter, this great Voxcast interview. You can also read his Grandmaster series on AT.)
Barnes, JTY and Clarke have consistently worked together on the other SG games - AI, AT, Necromunda and Blood Bowl - under Andy Hoare. So it makes sense - after Hoare took over Heresy in the year prior to the pandemic (after the 2019 weekender when he isn't in the Heresy seminars, or at the latest after Anuj Malhotra had his final day in November 2020) - they also moved "over" to work on HH, as they also seem to be doing for TOW.
TBH, I am not sure if Wyllie are still with FW, though, but Anuj's message does suggest that he still was at the end of 2020. However it is clear now that his former co-writer, Hoare, is his boss, if he is still in the studio. And Hoare doesn't seem like the person to leave Neil alone on the project, especially as he has the aforementioned "team" of reliable collaborators who were (and potentially still are) seemingly in the same room (if Hewitt's description of FW from 2017 is correct - "Forge World, everyone is all in one room.")
and
But more seriously, I play - and rewrite for my group - Necromunda, I love the old (sometimes spotty) FFG books, and am very familiar with their (often flawed, yet still brilliant) work.
But for me thats ok. What matters always is the world building and imagination of the games - and that’s something SG have in spades. You see what this has done with Necromunda - where the FFG supplement approach hasn't yielded a strong game, per se, but such a strong world-building that emulates a RPG model. Despite the former, and perhaps because of the latter, people build and play, irrespective of the game's shaky state, and it's become a huge success. AI and AT and BB don't have a patch on how messy Necromunda is, but overall each are strong games - if not "competitive" or "perfect" games, as such. But as we know, neither quite was heresy itself.
I guess heresy has the issue of somehow being both a fluff-driven, primarily campaign-playtested, non-competitve game - and a competitive game where people extensively mathshammer everything about it so as to create the most monster lists possible.
In Necromunda the game breaks I think when the latter occurs - when gangs with too many credits buy things with too many flawed or ott rules and make too easy monsters. However, the errant rules can just be "for he arbitrator" to smooth over, but that becomes harder the larger the game, the more reticent the playing group to such changes or the more competitive the environment.
It will be cool to see where the game goes, and what the studio's inclination is - and if those rumoured three ways to play really come into the game.
Thank you for the kind quote, Zedmeister! Not much more to add
Arbitrator wrote: Previous BL models had the one print run and then went to direct only I thought? So limited for third party, but you could still get them.
Arbitrator wrote: Previous BL models had the one print run and then went to direct only I thought? So limited for third party, but you could still get them.
Yes, I think that’s what’s going to happen here.
I asked WHC about this on twitter before they went up for pre-order and this is what they said was happening.
The images come up for me. Also, spoiler tags are a thing so people don't have to page down four times to read one sentence.
So is the new HH stuff then a replacement for the FW campaign series? I was apparently mistakenly thinking it was more of a new version of the plastics board games that came out previously.
So the new box is finally nearing announcement, great! I've been waiting since the leaked photos for this.
The thought of getting a plastic HH era Predator is also super exciting. No doubt this means it can also be built as a plain HH rhino as well as a foundation for a HH whirlwind.
Cannot comment on the rules changes as I've never played HH. I'm only into the HH miniatures.
Alot of that sounds pretty good actually. Making rhinos able to transport a squad + 2 characters will dull down spartan spam. Plasma was way to powerful seeing how accessible it was. Might actually see some new units other than "pride of the legion force with X3 obligatory plasma vet squads". Dreadnoughts essentially being monstrous creatures is a massive improvement.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I still need some plastic MKII in this new scale before I give a feth though lol.
Arbitrator wrote: Weren't Annihilator Predators only a thing post-Heresy?
My assumption when I saw that was that we may be getting a plastic for the unit, which would have options for 40k.
Wouldn't it be easier to throw a plastic sprue into the current Predator box?
Current GW plastic Predator and the FW resin Deimos one both come with Autocannon or Lascannon (FW then have the Predator Executioner which is Plasma/C-Beam, and the Predator Infernus which is Flamer/Melta).
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Alot of that sounds pretty good actually. Making rhinos able to transport a squad + 2 characters will dull down spartan spam. Plasma was way to powerful seeing how accessible it was. Might actually see some new units other than "pride of the legion force with X3 obligatory plasma vet squads". Dreadnoughts essentially being monstrous creatures is a massive improvement.
Agreed. Question is, will they upscale the Rhino? It can barely fit 6 right now
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Alot of that sounds pretty good actually. Making rhinos able to transport a squad + 2 characters will dull down spartan spam. Plasma was way to powerful seeing how accessible it was. Might actually see some new units other than "pride of the legion force with X3 obligatory plasma vet squads". Dreadnoughts essentially being monstrous creatures is a massive improvement.
Agreed. Question is, will they upscale the Rhino? It can barely fit 6 right now
Who knows, maybe they will make a new plastic Deimos Rhino kit that is slightly bigger but still compatible with the various sprues that can turn it into a Predator, Whirlwind, etc.
Anyway, none of these rumored changes bother me. I'm just hoping they're taking the opportunity to review everything they've learned from each edition of 40K and picking the best versions of rules from them, as well as changing them as needed.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Alot of that sounds pretty good actually. Making rhinos able to transport a squad + 2 characters will dull down spartan spam. Plasma was way to powerful seeing how accessible it was. Might actually see some new units other than "pride of the legion force with X3 obligatory plasma vet squads". Dreadnoughts essentially being monstrous creatures is a massive improvement.
Agreed. Question is, will they upscale the Rhino? It can barely fit 6 right now
If they were planning that I suspect they would have started with the SoB ones.
Don't really need to upscale a Rhino too much. Just a quarter inch wider, half an inch or so longer, and it would probably be good. But, like the poster above said, if they were going to do it, they would have done it with the SoB Rhino, too.
tneva82 wrote: Do we need rhinos size of land raider? Size creep is big. Playability is a thing unless you want to start playing on 8'5' boards
Let's see what my crystal ball reveals. Aha! In a stroke of genius GW upscales its models, and to compensate for this change downscales board size.
Wait, my crystal ball is set to the past. That's already happened. Alright, no more predictions until I fix the damn thing.
Tannhauser42 wrote: But, like the poster above said, if they were going to do it, they would have done it with the SoB Rhino, too.
Tinfoil hat time, but I wouldn't put it past GW to make "Astartes Rhinos" that are faithful in design to Deimos Rhinos but upscaled to match the now larger Marines. I'm not saying it's going to happen, but I could see it for two reasons:
1. GW has for a decade and a half done their best to throw out STC based vehicle design in favor of new and exciting designs to give people new things to buy. Old fluff doesn't get in the way if they've already tossed it out anyway, so it's easily imaginable that they could have two different vehicle sizes for Marines and Sisters without even worrying about fluff implications.
2. Sisters currently use the Mk.II Rhino that's been in use for about twenty years for their Rhino with an upgrade sprue for bling, and have massively blinged up Deimos based Rhinos for the other vehicles. If GW based that hypothetical Astartes Rhino on a Deimos pattern, it would end up looking like neither of the Sisters ones owed to the fact that the Deimos based Sisters models have their bling integrated and a Marine vehicle is going to look a lot barer.
I wouldn't put it past GW to upscale the rhinos a bit. If you're going to upscale the infantry then why not do the same for their transports while you're at it? Make people rebuy everything in their collection sounds very much like GW
Let's not forget that for the Rhino specifically it wouldn't be the first time. The model that was sized to work with Rogue Trader models was replaced by one to work with 3rd ed models. And since we've moved on from that 3rd ed infantry size...
Many of the black books are already completely outdated anyway. They were always impractical to use for gaming given their cost/size/weight/how many of them you needed.
Can't see myself diving back into 30k now that FW has the Australia tax, but I'm very keen for some plastic Deimos vehicles to use with my CSM.
Tamereth wrote: If these leaks are true all the black books just became outdated.
How long have they been the latest version? I know they initially published rules/army lists in the giant campaign books and then had red? and black? successive further updates but I only followed for the gratuitous minis pron moreso than as an actual player.
Books 7-9 are the ones that really matter because they are the only books with rules for Tsons, Wolves, the 2 Angels, Scars, and Talons of the Emperor. They do contain some generic Legion stuff as well but not loads.
warboss wrote: Have they changed the structure of the mkIII powerplant or does Fafnir just have extra nozzles because he's somehow extra juiced in his rules?
It's listed as Artificer armour in his rules (2+ save).
Gert wrote: HQs and Characters sometimes get fancier gear. Customised equipment and the such.
Has anyone else gotten extra powerplant heat exhausts (or whatever they are) or is that that entirely unique to him? I've never seen that before in 40k. Exhaust nozzle customization? Absolutely... From Ultras to Wolves, they change the shape. Never seen extras though personally so I didn't know if that meant something in game mechanically.
Gert wrote: HQs and Characters sometimes get fancier gear. Customised equipment and the such.
Has anyone else gotten extra powerplant heat exhausts (or whatever they are) or is that that entirely unique to him? I've never seen that before in 40k. Exhaust nozzle customization? Absolutely... From Ultras to Wolves, they change the shape. Never seen extras though personally so I didn't know if that meant something in game mechanically.
warboss wrote: Have they changed the structure of the mkIII powerplant or does Fafnir just have extra nozzles because he's somehow extra juiced in his rules?
It's listed as Artificer armour in his rules (2+ save).
Thanks. That would explain the ornateness (artificer is standard for high ranking officers in HH, right?). Anything for movement like extra distance or move through cover bonuses?
tneva82 wrote: No point changing size if it's still under scale. And for 28mm scale rhino should be land raider sized. More as game been turning to 32mm
The thing is, the transports really AREN'T that undersized anymore. Later I'll post a picture of myself standing next to an APC displayed next to our local National Guard unit along with a Primaris next to a Rhino.
You have to remember that in the real world soldiers don't get into transports in dynamic poses with a 5-foot wide, 8-inch thick black disc on their feet.
They can happily change the transport size for Heresy if the view is that Firstborn in 40K are heading to legends and therefore Rhinos etc arent required going forward in the Marine line (and SoB are irrelevant in the Heresy-40K comparison given they arent a thing in the Heresy system).
Geifer wrote:1. GW has for a decade and a half done their best to throw out STC based vehicle design in favor of new and exciting designs to give people new things to buy. Old fluff doesn't get in the way if they've already tossed it out anyway, so it's easily imaginable that they could have two different vehicle sizes for Marines and Sisters without even worrying about fluff implications.
In what way have they abandoned STC vehicle design? The vast majority of Imperium vehicles from 30k through to even Primaris share a lot of similar design elements that it's clear they're related.
The "template" part of STC has always been a vague enough term that it could refer to anything from a printed blueprint for a completed design with swappable hard points all the way up to a computer containing a library of adaptable elements.
Plus the Imperium was producing Rhinos for Astartes and average humans during the Great Crusade, so it's not unimaginable that there was a separate version designed if it was found that the original Rhino was too compact for power armor.
FrothingMuppet wrote:They can happily change the transport size for Heresy if the view is that Firstborn in 40K are heading to legends and therefore Rhinos etc arent required going forward in the Marine line (and SoB are irrelevant in the Heresy-40K comparison given they arent a thing in the Heresy system).
That wouldn't matter for Firstborn if they get Legended but it'd still effect Chaos Rhinos.
Since Mars pattern vehicles were a part of the later stages of the Heresy, I can absolutely see them taking all the current rhino-chassis based vehicles and reboxing them for 30k. That, in my mind, is much more likely than them remaking a bunch of those vehicles to be bigger.
The Chaos versions of those just need to go the way of the dodo for 40k. Give us some sort of weird daemon engine transport or some junk. At least then it'll match the way the rest of the army is going.
drbored wrote: The Chaos versions of those just need to go the way of the dodo for 40k. Give us some sort of weird daemon engine transport or some junk. At least then it'll match the way the rest of the army is going.
I wouldn't say that too loudly - Gadzilla might have an aneurysm...
drbored wrote: The Chaos versions of those just need to go the way of the dodo for 40k. Give us some sort of weird daemon engine transport or some junk. At least then it'll match the way the rest of the army is going.
I wouldn't say that too loudly - Gadzilla might have an aneurysm...
The Chaos versions of those just need to go the way of the dodo for 40k. Give us some sort of weird daemon engine transport or some junk. At least then it'll match the way the rest of the army is going.
Whenever someone suggests to dump units (i.e., invalidating peoples models to fit their very narrow and specific view of the lore) I immediately discard their take without a second thought, and I encourage everyone else to do the same.
Geifer wrote:1. GW has for a decade and a half done their best to throw out STC based vehicle design in favor of new and exciting designs to give people new things to buy. Old fluff doesn't get in the way if they've already tossed it out anyway, so it's easily imaginable that they could have two different vehicle sizes for Marines and Sisters without even worrying about fluff implications.
In what way have they abandoned STC vehicle design? The vast majority of Imperium vehicles from 30k through to even Primaris share a lot of similar design elements that it's clear they're related.
The "template" part of STC has always been a vague enough term that it could refer to anything from a printed blueprint for a completed design with swappable hard points all the way up to a computer containing a library of adaptable elements.
Plus the Imperium was producing Rhinos for Astartes and average humans during the Great Crusade, so it's not unimaginable that there was a separate version designed if it was found that the original Rhino was too compact for power armor.
Just a couple of examples. When GW made the Primaris tanks, they made visibly differently designed tanks rather than, in effect, Land Raiders and Rhinos that have their tracks replaced with anti-grav devices.
When they decided Marines needed aircraft smaller than a Thunderhawk to participate in the flyer game, they opted to give make one thing for basically everyone, except made a completely different design for Dark Angels and Death Watch instead of using the same craft or given them modified versions thereof.
When they released Mechanicus, they didn't give them Chimeras or Rhinos as they should have and cooked up some bogus fluff that Mechanicus armies prefer to walk or whatever. Then when they went back on that, Mechanicus still didn't get Chimeras and Rhinos and instead got their own hover barge.
GW emphasizes (sub-)faction specific design to create a unified appearance of the army over drawing on a generic, universal Imperial design that is at most modified to slot into the faction aesthetic.
The Rhino being a STC doesn't mean everyone everywhere uses the Rhino.
The Leman Russ is also an STC but it's not the main tank for every Imperial faction.
Gert wrote: Books 7-9 are the ones that really matter because they are the only books with rules for Tsons, Wolves, the 2 Angels, Scars, and Talons of the Emperor. They do contain some generic Legion stuff as well but not loads.
That would only matter insofar the rules for these things aren't published in whatever the new rulebook would be?
In that currently every other book up until them has been superceded by the Red Books.
Obviously none of the older books would matter if the new edition changes the rules, now would they?
The Chaos versions of those just need to go the way of the dodo for 40k. Give us some sort of weird daemon engine transport or some junk. At least then it'll match the way the rest of the army is going.
Whenever someone suggests to dump units (i.e., invalidating peoples models to fit their very narrow and specific view of the lore) I immediately discard their take without a second thought, and I encourage everyone else to do the same.
I can understand that. At the end of the day, it's not really any trouble for me if those ancient kits with a cruddy upgrade sprue are kept in circulation, looking worse and worse and worse compared to the modern kits that are released.
It's just a relic of GW's indecision when it comes to Chaos Marines as a faction and of firstborn as a steadily dying model line. I would love it if GW would actually update the rhino-chassis vehicles for all the factions that use them, if for no other reason than to get rid of the awful ancient warped sprues that barely fit together, but since I doubt that's in the cards, the next best thing would be to make some semblance of cohesiveness within the factions that use those vehicles, which is unlikely to happen as well.
Not a fan of the rumours, instead of fixing monstrous and flying monstrous creatures they mess with dreadnoughts for no reason, great. Also movement stats I can't stand, the unit type system is better and easier on everyone, the bespoke nonsense is not a route to go down. Anything borrowed from 8th just seems like a bad idea. God help us what they'll do to terrain rules.
Crablezworth wrote: Not a fan of the rumours, instead of fixing monstrous and flying monstrous creatures they mess with dreadnoughts for no reason, great.
""No reason"" besides a gigantic list of issues stated by every sane player since 4th edition, you mean?
Which is even dumber in HH than in 40K, BTW, because you can't even hide behind usual idiotic excuse 'muh lumbering carnifex is totally lithe enough to pee all over these dumb facing rules and fire out of its arse if it wants to' because premier HHMCs, admech stuff, uses the same tech as dreadnoughts and Contemptors are supposed to move with the same ease as your natural body. Both of these having different rules was downright comical but funnily enough this example of garbage rule writing that gaks all over game balance and fluff is somehow OK while different move speeds are a step too far?
Also movement stats I can't stand, the unit type system is better and easier on everyone
Yup, because it totally makes sense destroyers with two pistols move just as fast as devastator marine with huge, unwieldy autocannon and in 100 meter sprint, both would come in dead heat
This argument was stupid in 40K and is even dumber in HH, where vast majority of bodies are MEQ and you need more, not less granularity to differentiate them. Ditto with vehicles, when most are Rhino variants it doesn't make sense empty box moves the same speed as the box with added armour and turret. Abstract unit types make sense when you have too much basic diversity, not almost zero like in HH.
Anything borrowed from 8th just seems like a bad idea
I agree, they shouldn't borrow but just do what Alan wanted in first place, trash the terrible old system and adopt 8th edition wholesale. Rites of war look tailor made for 8th (and frankly, what 40K should do instead of detachment spam). Alas, thanks to people who have 'anything but not modern, good rules, please' blinkers on they will need to delete worst bits of old nonsense piece by piece, instead of finally entering 21st century with a single step. Oh well. Maybe in 10 more years HH will finally lose all that detritus and will appeal to people who don't have rose glasses thicker than a Spartan on...
He's not that wrong though, unit types were a mess in 6th/7th Edition and it's good they're being looked at, same with the walker rules that never really worked or compared badly to monsters.
It’s understandable they're doing little steps to evolve the bloated 7e rules, I guess they know they have to be careful with that because of the pretty conservative player group that stayed with 30K.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: He's not that wrong though, unit types were a mess in 6th/7th Edition and it's good they're being looked at, same with the walker rules that never really worked or compared badly to monsters.
It’s understandable they're doing little steps to evolve the bloated 7e rules, I guess they know they have to be careful with that because of the pretty conservative player group that stayed with 30K.
A combination of keeping USRs while also getting rid of dated unit types and disseminating those rules out to the units that should have them would do well.
Honestly the keyword system works decently in 8th and 9th edition, and I wouldn't mind seeing it in 30k as a way to distinguish what units can benefit from what rules.
I agree, they shouldn't borrow but just do what Alan wanted in first place, trash the terrible old system and adopt 8th edition wholesale. Rites of war look tailor made for 8th (and frankly, what 40K should do instead of detachment spam)
I play HH and while it has issues i wouldnt like it to become 8 or 9 edition. It would be fine to have some streamlining especially in close combat and some unit types. Perhaps vehicle rules. Ohh and psychic phase needs work.
However currently the HH game is tailored in such a way the battle goes up to the last turn and the result is not defined until the last movement and shooting. 8th edition had an opinion that in 2nd turn you knew who would win the whole game.
7th edition is indeed not the best but in HH many of its problems are not so glaring. From what i can see in the community almost everyone wouldnt like it to go the way of current 40k editions. I would even say the people who want it to go this way are the people who dont even play HH.
drbored wrote: to get rid of the awful ancient warped sprues that barely fit together
GW must be sending all the warped Rhino sprues to the US, because none of my Rhino/Pred/Razorback kits have been like that across four armies. The Impulsor I got in the Black Templar Combat Patrol is the only SM vehicle kit I've had that was warped.
I agree the dichotomy between MCs and Walkers was a problem. But Walkers weren't the problem, MCs were.
It would have been much better to treat MCs as walkers instead. Why should having legs fundementally change how an armour unit operates, are they not both a big heavy armoured shell with important squishy bits on the inside?
kirotheavenger wrote: I agree the dichotomy between MCs and Walkers was a problem. But Walkers weren't the problem, MCs were.
It would have been much better to treat MCs as walkers instead. Why should having legs fundementally change how an armour unit operates, are they not both a big heavy armoured shell with important squishy bits on the inside?
100% agree, the only 2 unit types the needed to fix was mc's and flying mc's. And lets's be honest, one the best things about 30k is there aren't many of those, it's basically daemons of the ruinstorm. So I'm baffled as to why they had to mess with walkers/dreads.
Second, the movement stats are just a non-starter for me. Why have any conventions (unit types, usr's) if the designers are going to drop them and make it even more of a stat-fest.
30k is enjoyed because it hasn't gone the route of 8-9th. I'm not sure why we must ruin it for the sake of those who have 9th to play and enjoy.
kirotheavenger wrote: I agree the dichotomy between MCs and Walkers was a problem. But Walkers weren't the problem, MCs were.
It would have been much better to treat MCs as walkers instead. Why should having legs fundementally change how an armour unit operates, are they not both a big heavy armoured shell with important squishy bits on the inside?
100% agree, the only 2 unit types the needed to fix was mc's and flying mc's. And lets's be honest, one the best things about 30k is there aren't many of those, it's basically daemons of the ruinstorm. So I'm baffled as to why they had to mess with walkers/dreads.
Second, the movement stats are just a non-starter for me. Why have ant conventions (unit types, usr's) if the designers are going to drop them and make it even more of a stat-fest.
30k is enjoyed because it hasn't gone the route of 8-9th. I'm not sure why we must ruin it for the sake of those who have 9th to play and enjoy.
Castellax are MCs, which makes is especially weird when they're much harder to bring down than Dreadnoughts since there's no chance of Pen'ing them. I'm fine with MC rules staying for Daemons, although I'm not adverse to them being changed up either. The problem is when you arbitrarily have completely different unit types between the same 'type' of unit... if that makes any sense.
I'm not opposed to movement stats. It's more logical for new players to be able to look at a datasheet and see what their movement is.
It's also nice to have some flexibility in movement values. And more logical than adding special rules like "slow and purposeful". IMO special rules shouldn't be used to reflect something that could be done by stats.
It really shouldn't be very complex thing, you should see the same trends in movement anyway. Apparently Legionaries are M7 base, so expect that to be fairly universal.
I don't think heavy weapons teams will be slower, but honestly that sounds really good to me. I'd love there to be more variation in stats.
Play around with initiatives and weapon skill more as well.
Porting HH to the 8th style won't fix anything IMO it will just create new problems.
No system is perfect but despite Irbis' fiery rhetoric, HH is not a bad system with loads of flaws. There are issues but IMO there isn't much that a new "Edition" wouldn't solve if it stuck with the current system and cleaned up the mess of books that haven't been updated properly since 2016. Honestly, new Legion Astartes, Legions in the AoD, Mechanicum, and Crusade Imperialis books that consolidated all the post-2016 releases would be perfect.
Just as a personal side point:
Nobody, either those who are pro-8th style rules or pro-current style rules, should be invoking Alan Bligh as reasoning for their argument. It's grim.
kirotheavenger wrote: I agree the dichotomy between MCs and Walkers was a problem. But Walkers weren't the problem, MCs were.
It would have been much better to treat MCs as walkers instead. Why should having legs fundementally change how an armour unit operates, are they not both a big heavy armoured shell with important squishy bits on the inside?
100% agree, the only 2 unit types the needed to fix was mc's and flying mc's. And lets's be honest, one the best things about 30k is there aren't many of those, it's basically daemons of the ruinstorm. So I'm baffled as to why they had to mess with walkers/dreads.
Second, the movement stats are just a non-starter for me. Why have ant conventions (unit types, usr's) if the designers are going to drop them and make it even more of a stat-fest.
30k is enjoyed because it hasn't gone the route of 8-9th. I'm not sure why we must ruin it for the sake of those who have 9th to play and enjoy.
Castellax are MCs, which makes is especially weird when they're much harder to bring down than Dreadnoughts since there's no chance of Pen'ing them. I'm fine with MC rules staying for Daemons, although I'm not adverse to them being changed up either. The problem is when you arbitrarily have completely different unit types between the same 'type' of unit... if that makes any sense.
Honestly I'd be fine with axing mc's and lying mc's all together. Mechanicum are a cool army but are also host to just as may strong units as daemons of the ruinstorm and for the reasons you describe, they're just much harder to kill than dreadnoughts.
Just as a personal side point:
Nobody, either those who are pro-8th style rules or pro-current style rules, should be invoking Alan Bligh as reasoning for their argument. It's grim.
Except apparently he wanted to go the route of 8th, which is a good thing. Crablez is just acting like a boomer resisting change.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Except apparently he wanted to go the route of 8th, which is a good thing. Crablez is just acting like a boomer resisting change.
Two things:
1 - "Apparently" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. You don't know what Bligh said and neither do I. All we have is hearsay.
2 - Using a dead man as justification for the changes you want is grim and frankly disgusting. Have some bloody decency.
I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I liked 6th/7th more than 8th/9th. It just feels like they are adding too many things to the game. Hence why I liked playing HH - well also the fact that you don't get the rulebook being thrown out every 2 years.
drbored wrote: to get rid of the awful ancient warped sprues that barely fit together
GW must be sending all the warped Rhino sprues to the US, because none of my Rhino/Pred/Razorback kits have been like that across four armies. The Impulsor I got in the Black Templar Combat Patrol is the only SM vehicle kit I've had that was warped.
It's not terrible, but if you look at the track guards just where the track enters and exits, you will extremely frequently see that people haven't built them flush because the top piece will flex out of alignment with the side pieces if you don't hold it in place while gluing.
Boringstuff wrote: I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I liked 6th/7th more than 8th/9th. It just feels like they are adding too many things to the game. Hence why I liked playing HH - well also the fact that you don't get the rulebook being thrown out every 2 years.
GW added a ton of dumb stuff to the 6th/7th main game, which never made it to Horus Heresy. No reason the same couldn't happen with 9th.
Boringstuff wrote: I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I liked 6th/7th more than 8th/9th. It just feels like they are adding too many things to the game. Hence why I liked playing HH - well also the fact that you don't get the rulebook being thrown out every 2 years.
GW added a ton of dumb stuff to the 6th/7th main game, which never made it to Horus Heresy. No reason the same couldn't happen with 9th.
That's a big part of the problem.
The thing to keep in mind with these 6th/7th ed versus 8th/9th ed discussions is that the people responsible for the many and varied criticized parts of the former are the same people responsible for the many and varied criticized parts of the latter. 40k during all these editions has been a mess for many of the same reasons, but the audience for the working parts is at least partially different.
People that ask for an injection of 8th ed designs into Horus Heresy may believe that the game is improved by them, but having more parts that they like only improves the game in so far as it improves their tolerance of the bad parts that are also in the system. While at the same time having the opposite effect on people who liked the earlier rules framework.
Beyond GW's ability to keep their game design in check you have the question of whether it's desirable to move the game's rules design away from what the existing fan base is familiar with and probably likes, to something that appeals to an at least partially different audience. If you like the game design that builds on the 3rd ed 40k framework, there's no reason to look forward to a new edition that promises to go in the direction of 8th ed instead of fixing issues inside the existing framework. The game is not likely to be better for it. Just different.
Beyond GW's ability to keep their game design in check you have the question of whether it's desirable to move the game's rules design away from what the existing fan base is familiar with and probably likes, to something that appeals to an at least partially different audience. If you like the game design that builds on the 3rd ed 40k framework, there's no reason to look forward to a new edition that promises to go in the direction of 8th ed instead of fixing issues inside the existing framework. The game is not likely to be better for it. Just different.
I'm not going to defend 8th/9th, but keeping the game in 7th because the "existing fanbase" likes it is just circular logic. What about the fan base that left because they don't like the rules?
Beyond GW's ability to keep their game design in check you have the question of whether it's desirable to move the game's rules design away from what the existing fan base is familiar with and probably likes, to something that appeals to an at least partially different audience. If you like the game design that builds on the 3rd ed 40k framework, there's no reason to look forward to a new edition that promises to go in the direction of 8th ed instead of fixing issues inside the existing framework. The game is not likely to be better for it. Just different.
I'm not going to defend 8th/9th, but keeping the game in 7th because the "existing fanbase" likes it is just circular logic. What about the fan base that left because they don't like the rules?
Your statement would only make sense if the HH game had earlier editions which didnt use 7th ed 40K rules as their starting point. How can someone have left if they were never on board in the first place?
Heresy definitely gets a lot of traction as "40k for people that don't like 40k", the fact that it's the old rules is particularly useful for that.
I don't think blending those concepts with some of the newer ones is necessarily a bad idea. 8th definitely did have some good ideas.
Only time will tell if they've taken the good concepts and used them well, or if they've taken the bad concepts and used them poorly.
Going all in on 9th rules would definitely be a mistake IMO. People that like 9th are quite happily playing 40k already.
Beyond GW's ability to keep their game design in check you have the question of whether it's desirable to move the game's rules design away from what the existing fan base is familiar with and probably likes, to something that appeals to an at least partially different audience. If you like the game design that builds on the 3rd ed 40k framework, there's no reason to look forward to a new edition that promises to go in the direction of 8th ed instead of fixing issues inside the existing framework. The game is not likely to be better for it. Just different.
I'm not going to defend 8th/9th, but keeping the game in 7th because the "existing fanbase" likes it is just circular logic. What about the fan base that left because they don't like the rules?
Your statement would only make sense if the HH game had earlier editions which didnt use 7th ed 40K rules as their starting point. How can someone have left if they were never on board in the first place?
It makes as much sense for both sides of the argument. I "play" HH because I like the lore, models, and overall army design, not because I love 7th edition. But I primarily use my HH models for 40k, because that's what my friends play. I liked it better when I were able to use the Legion army list to play them.
Keel wrote: It makes as much sense for both sides of the argument. I "play" HH because I like the lore, models, and overall army design, not because I love 7th edition. But I primarily use my HH models for 40k, because that's what my friends play. I liked it better when I were able to use the Legion army list to play them.
So GW should inconvenience all the people who enjoy the actual heresy game so that you can use your heresy army in 40k games?
Huh?
Keel wrote: It makes as much sense for both sides of the argument. I "play" HH because I like the lore, models, and overall army design, not because I love 7th edition. But I primarily use my HH models for 40k, because that's what my friends play. I liked it better when I were able to use the Legion army list to play them.
So GW should inconvenience all the people who enjoy the actual heresy game so that you can use your heresy army in 40k games?
Huh?
Yes, the great inconvenience of ongoing support. Such a hassle.
If people prefer no support and 7th edition, they can keep playing just like they always did.
Keel wrote: Yes, the great inconvenience of ongoing support. Such a hassle.
If people prefer no support and 7th edition, they can keep playing just like they always did.
Yet the very thread you're posting in contains rumours indicating upcoming support for the game, to say nothing of the ongoing support for the game in black books and FAQs.
Your statement would only make sense if the HH game had earlier editions which didnt use 7th ed 40K rules as their starting point. How can someone have left if they were never on board in the first place?
Keel wrote: Yes, the great inconvenience of ongoing support. Such a hassle.
If people prefer no support and 7th edition, they can keep playing just like they always did.
Yet the very thread you're posting in contains rumours indicating upcoming support for the game, to say nothing of the ongoing support for the game in black books and FAQs.
Indeed, rumours which indicate changes to the game. I'm not sure why these changes don't inconvenience people though?
While the black books are nice, they aren't really coming out as fast as they should. Two years plus between books which contain some rules for two legions is not a lot of support, but I agree that it doesn't really inconvenience anyone, if that's the goal. IIRC, there was talk about 20 books or so before we go to Terra? We're going to be waiting a long time for that… which is to say I think the Black Books are dead.
Just as a personal side point:
Nobody, either those who are pro-8th style rules or pro-current style rules, should be invoking Alan Bligh as reasoning for their argument. It's grim.
Except apparently he wanted to go the route of 8th, which is a good thing. Crablez is just acting like a boomer resisting change.
I'm 36. And not the topic last I checked
And fortunately I'm also a powerful psyker and I alone am privy to Alan Bligh's deathbed wishes and he wanted the game to remain unchanged. So there.
Keel wrote: It makes as much sense for both sides of the argument. I "play" HH because I like the lore, models, and overall army design, not because I love 7th edition. But I primarily use my HH models for 40k, because that's what my friends play. I liked it better when I were able to use the Legion army list to play them.
So GW should inconvenience all the people who enjoy the actual heresy game so that you can use your heresy army in 40k games?
Huh?
Yes, the great inconvenience of ongoing support. Such a hassle.
If people prefer no support and 7th edition, they can keep playing just like they always did.
This seems to be pretty much the main group wanting to mess up HH, the "I wanna play 40k with my 30k models because no one plays 30k". The there's the 40k players who think 30k is basically just apoc and only play like 5000pts+ a side, which is also a bit baffling but whatever.
HH is actually a pretty great game from about 2250-3500pts, it really doesn't need the 8/9th ed treatment, it just needs a bit of love and some model releases that don't suck.
Marshal Loss wrote: Leaks assumed to be from loyalist legions supplement. Was originally two images but I cut and merged into one
Spoiler:
Neat, glad to see some cool art. So a Loyalist Legions supplement... I suppose that means there'd be a Traitor Legion supplement as well, much like how they handled the Legios for Titanicus.
Oh man that Imperial fist helmet on the bottom right sure does look cool, I really wanna buy that armor type....oh wait.
I seriously don't understand this. Why advertise or show art for models you don't even produce?? Stop showing MKII unless you actually plan to support it. Stop showing Lucius pattern warlord heads in your Titanicus art if you don't make any.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Oh man that Imperial fist helmet on the bottom right sure does look cool, I really wanna buy that armor type....oh wait.
I seriously don't understand this. Why advertise or show art for models you don't even produce?? Stop showing MKII unless you actually plan to support it. Stop showing Lucius pattern warlord heads in your Titanicus art if you don't make any.
What's up with those beakie helmets where the three vents are at the top of the beak? I need some of those in my life! A new variant AFAIK
Not thrilled about the retcon to the veteran helmet having the roman leaves thingy.. In RT era, those were only worn by highest ranking Broters amirite? I have been saving up mine to be used only on the captains, this is going to mess with my OCD LOL
Was also going to post that I read from Bolter&Chainsword that the new BLHH model boxes already have the same graphic flourish as the upcoming HH book.. so Dominion Zephon and Fafnir can be considered the first official models of the HH reboot
The leaked pictures of the new beakies are too blurry for me to make something like that out, but they're beakies and new models. So perhaps you're in luck and some of them have those top vents.
Well HH could have based on 5th ed I guess, it was more balanced between ranged and combat. 6th/7th ed seemed to be weighted to shooty armies IIRC. Although I did read somewhere that 6th ed HH was reasonably balanced due to the wide options.
Anyway, looking forward to the announcement even if I haven't played any 30k for a while!
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Oh man that Imperial fist helmet on the bottom right sure does look cool, I really wanna buy that armor type....oh wait.
I seriously don't understand this. Why advertise or show art for models you don't even produce?? Stop showing MKII unless you actually plan to support it. Stop showing Lucius pattern warlord heads in your Titanicus art if you don't make any.
Midnightdeathblade wrote: Oh man that Imperial fist helmet on the bottom right sure does look cool, I really wanna buy that armor type....oh wait.
I seriously don't understand this. Why advertise or show art for models you don't even produce?? Stop showing MKII unless you actually plan to support it. Stop showing Lucius pattern warlord heads in your Titanicus art if you don't make any.
I hope you're not actually trying to imply they still support MKII armor lol.
No, I was half asleep and missed the bit of text above the go pic that explicitly says it’s MKII, and was just pointing out that if you want helmets that just *look* like that, then the set I posted were still available. Ignore me, sorry!
I hope you're not actually trying to imply they still support MKII armor lol.
There are rumours that the revamped HH line is going to cover more armour marks, and I do remember mk2 being mentioned not long after the box set pictures leaked. Not sure why GW would bother though, mk6 is clearly the best
I’ve not played HH, was priced out by resin and direct ordering from UK. Excitedif they do all plastics, not a huge fan of Mk VI. I’m excited for this release, got my printer working again to embellish kits that I can. Just need to settle on which legion.
An Horus Heresy fans are weird.
Why would you not want the game to continually change and grow and evolve into modern gaming.
Games staying the same is how they die
hotsauceman1 wrote: An Horus Heresy fans are weird.
Why would you not want the game to continually change and grow and evolve into modern gaming.
Games staying the same is how they die
That's not what most people are saying though. I think most people are looking for smaller changes and clarifications to the current ruleset rather than a huge change.
Change "just because" isn't a good thing and the only reason change should be implemented is if there are serious concerns with the system, which to my knowledge there aren't many. There doesn't need to be a shift in the paradigm because the current core rules are very good.
People just look at it and see 7th Ed without understanding that many of the problems that plagued 7th just don't exist in HH.
The biggest issue with HH currently is the lack of centralised rules, something that is an easy fix to implement. The current Red Book system works fine and all I would say is split the Loyalist and Traitor Legions into two separate compendiums only because there's a lot of stuff to cram in.
hotsauceman1 wrote: An Horus Heresy fans are weird.
Why would you not want the game to continually change and grow and evolve into modern gaming.
Games staying the same is how they die
Battletech has mostly been the same for how many years now? And what its biggest shake ups were adding in the Clans, and then moving to a click game before moving back to how it was.
hotsauceman1 wrote: An Horus Heresy fans are weird.
Why would you not want the game to continually change and grow and evolve into modern gaming.
Games staying the same is how they die
Battletech has mostly been the same for how many years now? And what its biggest shake ups were adding in the Clans, and then moving to a click game before moving back to how it was.
Battletech was better written to begin with though. Does that really count?
hotsauceman1 wrote: An Horus Heresy fans are weird.
Why would you not want the game to continually change and grow and evolve into modern gaming.
Games staying the same is how they die
Battletech has mostly been the same for how many years now? And what its biggest shake ups were adding in the Clans, and then moving to a click game before moving back to how it was.
Battletech was better written to begin with though. Does that really count?
Major difference is one was written to only sell miniatures while the other wasn't.
Lotr is still basically the same since 2001, and I'd say ruleswize it's in the best position it has ever been because the developers are people that know the game very well.
Meanwhile 40K gets restarted or some halfassed load of campaign books when you think "now would be a good time to refine".
That being said, I think HH made the best you can do out of 7th Edition... But it's still 7th Edition, one of the worst base rules I can think of. Adopting some of the aspects of 8th is a good step.
IMHO, if the core rules of a game are solid, all it needs is a more or less steady influx of new content and slight "elovutionary rather than revolutionary" tweaks/changes to the core rules in order to keep things going. New content doesn't have to mean new rules which always try to reinvent the wheel, more like new missions/scenarios/campaigns etc
It’s not that Horus Heresy players are against change. I’m sure pretty much everyone would change the physic phase given the chance. But subtle changes that improve the current system are not the same as a totally new game being pushed out and the one we play and love being abandoned, ala the launch of 8th edition for 40k.
hotsauceman1 wrote: An Horus Heresy fans are weird.
Why would you not want the game to continually change and grow and evolve into modern gaming.
Games staying the same is how they die
Also movement stats I can't stand, the unit type system is better and easier on everyone
Yup, because it totally makes sense destroyers with two pistols move just as fast as devastator marine with huge, unwieldy autocannon and in 100 meter sprint, both would come in dead heat
This argument was stupid in 40K and is even dumber in HH, where vast majority of bodies are MEQ and you need more, not less granularity to differentiate them. Ditto with vehicles, when most are Rhino variants it doesn't make sense empty box moves the same speed as the box with added armour and turret. Abstract unit types make sense when you have too much basic diversity, not almost zero like in HH.
I don't really play HH anymore. But not long ago I went back and reread the unit type section of the rulebook. Made me want to punch myself in the face. Talk about ridiculously overwritten rules. Adopting some of the better aspects of 8th might actually pique my interest in HH again.
Tamereth wrote: It’s not that Horus Heresy players are against change. I’m sure pretty much everyone would change the physic phase given the chance. But subtle changes that improve the current system are not the same as a totally new game being pushed out and the one we play and love being abandoned, ala the launch of 8th edition for 40k.
Ya, psychic phase isn't great. A new compendium or soft back book could work as a big faq, but I think the core of respecting 30k is trying to diminish as little as possible owning all those big books. GW staff would have a hard time justifying all the paper they waste to the environmentally conscious out there. There is something to be said for a game that feels like a respected institution when compared to it's brothers. 40k looks like a casino/buffet in a vegas strip mall in comparison. And like any casino it only seems to care that you have no idea what time of day it is. AT is the smart quiet kid getting babysat by strippers.
30k needs the tiniest of love, some model support, a starter and the communication from gw/fw that there is a plan going forward. All this rumour sounds like is someone in marketing managed to get enough money allocated because someone showed them dreadnoughts are their highest seller or something. It's been stated to death but because it's true it shall be stated again, mc's and flying mc's are the only real problem units, it would have made more sense to deal with those. And as imperfect as walkers are, plenty of them can get invul saves and decent armour on the front. A leviathan dread in a drop pod is obnoxious enough, it doesn't need to be made better. Only other thing I'd do is reing in the stupid knight faction that is more annoying than mechanicum or daemons of the ruinstorm. 30k for the last while in terms of releases has basically been "oh look, an expensive hq character.. neat". The game could see next to no changes, a starter and a sprinkle of plastic releases to follow and I feel like that'd sate most people, and the 8-9th players can still use the models.
Also movement stats I can't stand, the unit type system is better and easier on everyone
Yup, because it totally makes sense destroyers with two pistols move just as fast as devastator marine with huge, unwieldy autocannon and in 100 meter sprint, both would come in dead heat
This argument was stupid in 40K and is even dumber in HH, where vast majority of bodies are MEQ and you need more, not less granularity to differentiate them. Ditto with vehicles, when most are Rhino variants it doesn't make sense empty box moves the same speed as the box with added armour and turret. Abstract unit types make sense when you have too much basic diversity, not almost zero like in HH.
I don't really play HH anymore. But not long ago I went back and reread the unit type section of the rulebook. Made me want to punch myself in the face. Talk about ridiculously overwritten rules. Adopting some of the better aspects of 8th might actually pique my interest in HH again.
There may be more unit types than is needed, but understand having these core things not change for literally years means once you commit the rules to memory the core game functions very well. Same with usr's, I can agree there too you could likely trim as there are a lot, but again, it also makes reading new units great once committed to memory because you can save a lot of space and instantly understand how things work. The opposite, the 8-9th way is just a stat-fest, it's like pretending skyrim had some deep intricate system. It makes the game feel much more like a collectible card game than a wargame. It also lets off all the terrible rules writing with the marketing bs of "bespoke" until everyone ears start to bleed.
I get wanting most of the relevant info on the page/unit card but I also want a game with a strong core set of rules that are in many ways the price of entry.
Crablezworth wrote: There may be more unit types than is needed, but understand having these core things not change for literally years means once you commit the rules to memory the core game functions very well. Same with usr's, I can agree there too you could likely trim as there are a lot, but again, it also makes reading new units great once committed to memory because you can save a lot of space and instantly understand how things work. The opposite, the 8-9th way is just a stat-fest, it's like pretending skyrim had some deep intricate system. It makes the game feel much more like a collectible card game than a wargame. It also lets off all the terrible rules writing with the marketing bs of "bespoke" until everyone ears start to bleed.
I get wanting most of the relevant info on the page/unit card but I also want a game with a strong core set of rules that are in many ways the price of entry.
I see no good reason why anyone should have to be expected to memorize bikes vs. cavalry vs. beasts. It's a wargame, not an RPG. Give units a simple move stat like countless other wargames and be done with it.
To me, it isn't the stats or core rules that really make 8th/9th feel like a CCG. That's about the codexes and their layered buffs and combos and gotcha stratagems and such. A lot of the extra complexity of 7th doesn't express itself in better gameplay. Both 7th and AT have armor facings, but one of those games gets much more hot and heavy into unit maneuvering and counter-maneuvers to jockey for/protect against side and rear shots, and it isn't 7th.
is sabotaging the whole army 
