1. SPEED KING trait - gives you reroll of 1 on wound. Well, honestly - let' s say you possition well and affect 3 Scrapjets, 3 Squigbuggies and 4 Koptas.
In average, this is 21 rokkits on MSJ, 21 Squigbuggies heavy launcha shots and 16 Kopta rokkits in average = 12 hits with the rokkits and about 10 squigs = 22 important wound rolls.
There will about - be optimistic - 4 rolls of 1. Let' s say we' re wounding on 4+, 2 another wounds.
= > the whole SPEEDKING warlord trait gives you about 2 another wounds from the whole army. One of them will be saved so total effect per turn is about DMG 3
+ the bigshootas, of course.
Well… my point is, that this trait seems to be pretty useless. Does it really worth it to spent a CP for it?
Because on the other hand, a lot of the units will have an issue with the moral. So the KILLA REPUTATION seems to be much better option. This can save you a buggy/biker/kopta per turn! We can call it maybe 50p per turn! That seems to be better ROI.
But everybody play the SPEEDKING. So what do I miss?
2. ATTAK OUT O DA SUN moral issue - well, do you take this strategem as it is and drop and fade in the same turn and give enemy zero chance to kill your koptas? It seems to be really broken to me….
3. Warbikers - I' m not so impressed by them. 5 Bikers is not able to kill 5 Eliminators or similar in charge. Neither with 10 Guardsman. Which is pretty standard task I expected from such unit and make my second detachement the Evil Sunz to allow them charge.
Simply, the do not go “over the margin”
Now I downgrade them to squads 3x3 just to do the Good Bitz and survive in cover.
Or again - do I miss something?
4. On the other side, 4 Koptas thanks the +1 attack by Speedmob get over the margin to kill comfortly the 10 GEQs in CC. Which is nice.
5. Most of I wrote above is againts what appears in top lists from GTs. Am I genius or shall think better?
1) speed king is a 16% boost in damage… it’s not better then BBK on a strong melee platform but it’s the next best damage boost…
I think that’s the reason people take it especially in a unit like the wartrike which isn’t really strong in combat. But you are right speed king isn’t a must take.
Atk out of the sun can be busted if you never allowed your opponent to hit it but it requires so many cp it’s not going to be a problem. In fact It might be better of using drive by Dakka sometimes.
5x warbikers are incredible you are talking about 125pts and it’s not just about thier offense but thier defense and speed which is great. 9x warbikers using the evil sun faster then yoos for a turn 1 charge is strong especially if that you it has a strat used in them to maximize damage.. but honestly the 2 other unit’s should probably be 3-4 models .
gungo wrote: 1) speed king is a 16% boost in damage… it’s not better then BBK on a strong melee platform but it’s the next best damage boost…
I think that’s the reason people take it especially in a unit like the wartrike which isn’t really strong in combat. But you are right speed king isn’t a must take.
Atk out of the sun can be busted if you never allowed your opponent to hit it but it requires so many cp it’s not going to be a problem. In fact It might be better of using drive by Dakka sometimes.
5x warbikers are incredible you are talking about 125pts and it’s not just about thier offense but thier defense and speed which is great. 9x warbikers using the evil sun faster then yoos for a turn 1 charge is strong especially if that you it has a strat used in them to maximize damage.. but honestly the 2 other unit’s should probably be 3-4 models .
Koptas are great!
Speedking - 16% boost - from where does this number comes from? Written like this it seems to be more interesting…
Atak out of the sun - so many CP? It is Strategic ploy strategem = my Extra Kunnyn trait reduce the price to 1 CP….
But you are right, tha Driven by Dakka can me sometimes more interesting
Warbikers - even if you alphacharge 9 warbikers, their damage output is something like 10 GEQs plus shooting - 15 GEQ in total? No more. Well it is great to charge IG defence line and consolidate into their tanks to criple their shooting. But single unit like this is not a threat. If you can do it with 3 squads like this… and 3 killrigs and 3 kommandos and 3 trukkboyz - than it is interesting. But that is a different kind of the list.
Squads of 3-5 doing roadbloks and actions seems to be more usefull. Thier durability is nice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw in Speed Mob list we have a very simple question with the secondaries
- Good bitz, because it is the only bikers can do and has a chance to pass
- to the last on squigbuggies and max unit of scrapjets (both are the slowest so stucked behind…) and one jet (hard job to keep him alive)
- one from the Stranglehold/Engage/Behind enemy lines - special mention to Behind enemy lines, because you can get there super fast with the koptas and score high in few turns
Nothing serious. They sold it out. Comes back sooner or later. It ' s a new model, no reason to discontinued it. And FB is full of people who loves this model as a terrain piece
Tomsug wrote: Speedking - 16% boost - from where does this number comes from? Written like this it seems to be more interesting…
If you reroll 1s, you reroll 1/6 dice rolls. And every die you reroll was a failure, of course. Then, on your reroll, you have the normal chance of success.
The math shakes out to being a 7/6 improvement in success rate, or about 16-17 percent.
Had a test 1500 game today where I ran a completely different list from what I usually run and had a chance to test the units i've never used in 9th such as:
Ghazghkull, killa Kanz with rokkits and skorchas,
3 trukkmeganobz with skorchaz. Also ran some buggiez and all the regular stuff like kommandoez, bikerboss, grots... All goffs.
Played vs mellee deathwing with some melta support ravenwing.
Overall, it helped that orks managed to go first to occupy objectives and score some supremacy and octarius points early on but the shooting was underwhelming.
Kanz went on the flanks and Flamer ones were out of range of anything most of the game and rokkit Kanz missed all game long. I guess, if I rolled better, they'd be ok-ish. However, I feel that koptas are simply better for flanking. Kanz were too slow. I guess, they're supposed to move up front but it's not what you generally want to do vs mellee deathwing. So, my first try of Kanz was not satisfactory. Need to test them in another game where their klawz would matter. 5 attacks per kan (if there are still 3+ left) during waagh seems nice on paper.
Ghaz - also a bit too slow. And was not the best matchup to test him once again. His double waagh was helpful, tho. We ran a couple tests after the game ended what would have happened if he charged 5 primaris shield termies (swordbrethren or smth like this - the ones with shields and swords with 1+ armor and 6 move), than got charged by the/ss termies. He usually kills around 3 such models despite their transhuman and 4++. And has decent chances of surviving for at least 2 turns in such scenario. The problem is that ghaz is usually down to either 8 or 4 wounds by the time he reaches combat, so, I don't know if the test was of any use.
3 meganobz - trukkboyz with skorchas - were surprisingly decent. They moved in 1st turn, burnt down a bike, than unfortunately, completely wiffed in combat due to transhuman enemy, than overwatched azrael down to a single wound, completely wiffed in mellee again but fell back and scored an objective. I think I'll run more of those. Skorchas make a huge difference. I ran regular ones and they didn't do much at all. Running trukkboyz or goffs is not an obvious choice. Sometimes it's better to have a much longer threat range, sometimes it's better to have more hits on 6s.
... Squigbuggy crushed a chaplain cause it was a Goff squigbuggy. +1 attack from ghaz waagh and extra hits made all the difference. It's nice to have some versatility. Also, s8 squigbuggies and s9 skrapjets. Whereas freebootas would just have no good targets to trigger +1 to hit after t1.
All in all, orks were victorious and had much easier time zooming around l, grabbing objectives and smashing killable targets while avoiding deathwing for the first part of the game where it mattered the most.
Some idea for future tests:
Makari + Ghaz = 6+++ buggies, trukks and kanz. So that if someone wants to meta-burn through your goff skrapjets early on ever again, you could greet them with -1 to hit, 5++ and 6+++.
I' ve spend last few days playing the Speed Mob a lot and this are the results:
1. I love it. Because…
2. Finally Speed Freaks army! It moves like a hell! 20” movement for half of the army. Nothing moves under aprox 13”. Hell!! Not a fkny Freeboota buggy Castle!
3. It is reliable - no sheneningas with killing some soft unit to get +1 to hit.
4. It is simple. Few types of units. No complicated kombos. Just drive and shoot and crash (and deal MW in crash)!
5. It shoots like a hell - speed mob lost the +1 to hit, but because you
- don' t waste the points for the fkn grots and kommandos, you have more dakka
- don' t waste the shooting on some junk units to get +1 to hit
= you shoot like a hell. 6 squads of Grey Knights + one 13W dreadnought = 50% pf the army down in T1? Hold my beer!
6. If you don' t shoot and thinks get rough, you crash! You can Ramming Speed 3xMSJs and deal 5MW in average and another 4-5 by Koptas = 10MW per turn. And you can do it every turn. First 2 turns at least. And koptas can disappear in the sun after this charge and finishing their 36 CC attacks. Simply, take everything that has a Spiked Ram.
7. You need to run! It' s “catch me if you can”
It is very simply, easy to play and fun because of a lot of maneuvering.
8. Ok, Speedking is fine. Definitely more effective then Killa Reputation. I take my doubts back.
9. I really do not have any use for bigger biker squads than 3x3. Neither for ES advance+charge. However, Driven by dakka is usefull.
10. blood Axe for duty free CP return is must!
11. Overwatch is your next shooting phase. You hit on 5+ or 6+ anyway, so what is the difference….
12. -1 to hit and good invu hurts you a lot. Thanks Gork for the MW in charge. Bloody Harlequins. But you table them!
Warboss on Warbike [6 PL, 115pts, -1CP]: 1. Extra Kunnin' (Blood Axes), Morgog's Finkin' Cap (Blood Axes), Power Klaw, Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz, Warlord
Tomsug wrote: Nothing serious. They sold it out. Comes back sooner or later.
Something selling out means it's still on the store. The Bunka is completely gone. You can't even search for it, and attempting to get there via Google just leads to a page with nothing.
Jid's probably right in that it's a website error, but this isn't your typical "No longer available online" or "Temporary Out of Stock" issue that some things get.
gungo wrote: 1) speed king is a 16% boost in damage… it’s not better then BBK on a strong melee platform but it’s the next best damage boost…
I think that’s the reason people take it especially in a unit like the wartrike which isn’t really strong in combat. But you are right speed king isn’t a must take.
Atk out of the sun can be busted if you never allowed your opponent to hit it but it requires so many cp it’s not going to be a problem. In fact It might be better of using drive by Dakka sometimes.
5x warbikers are incredible you are talking about 125pts and it’s not just about thier offense but thier defense and speed which is great. 9x warbikers using the evil sun faster then yoos for a turn 1 charge is strong especially if that you it has a strat used in them to maximize damage.. but honestly the 2 other unit’s should probably be 3-4 models .
Koptas are great!
Speedking - 16% boost - from where does this number comes from? Written like this it seems to be more interesting…
Atak out of the sun - so many CP? It is Strategic ploy strategem = my Extra Kunnyn trait reduce the price to 1 CP….
But you are right, tha Driven by Dakka can me sometimes more interesting
Warbikers - even if you alphacharge 9 warbikers, their damage output is something like 10 GEQs plus shooting - 15 GEQ in total? No more. Well it is great to charge IG defence line and consolidate into their tanks to criple their shooting. But single unit like this is not a threat. If you can do it with 3 squads like this… and 3 killrigs and 3 kommandos and 3 trukkboyz - than it is interesting. But that is a different kind of the list.
Squads of 3-5 doing roadbloks and actions seems to be more usefull. Thier durability is nice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw in Speed Mob list we have a very simple question with the secondaries
- Good bitz, because it is the only bikers can do and has a chance to pass
- to the last on squigbuggies and max unit of scrapjets (both are the slowest so stucked behind…) and one jet (hard job to keep him alive)
- one from the Stranglehold/Engage/Behind enemy lines - special mention to Behind enemy lines, because you can get there super fast with the koptas and score high in few turns
Atk out of the sun means you will never have 5++ becuase you can’t advance during your movement phase if you are entering from reserves. It cost 2 cp even if you use the ability to reduce 1 strat by 1 cp you are technically using that 1 cp reduction. I agree atk out of the sun is broken as written but if they nerf it so you can’t go into reserves on same turn you enter from reserves then it’s an overpriced strat compared to other armies who can do the same for 1cp. But the main reason I say atk out of the sun is alot of cp is Speed mob is cp intensive and I want those command points for crashing through, ramming speed, blitza Dakka, drive by Dakka, more gitz over here, and chaaarge!!
Speaking of charge!! That’s the main reason 9 warbikers are decent… because you can turn 9 warbikers w Bc/pk nob into a much bigger threat with +1str and -1ap each. Str5 ap-2 are significantly better at killing ‘meq and geq plus you have another unit you can use crashing through strat on! But you are correct smaller units of warbikers seem to be the more popular competitive list.
You also forgot deploy homers for your secondaries… speed mob allows you to advance up to 20in and still deploy homers.. but honestly all these secondaries look like they are changing in chapter approved in some way.
My main issue with speed mob other than heavy CP usage, and current lack of secondary options is that nob bikers are significantly weaker without red button, cloud of smoke and the extra wound… if they had those missing abilities then speed mob would have a unit that was at least a semi decent melee threat… however nob bikers was somehow overlooked. If nob bikers were fixed speed mob would be awesome! 3x3 nob bikers with pks would wreck some melee units on the charge.
Regarding your speeedmob list it’s fun because it makes orks post different but you do know you can trigger freebooter for the aircraft? I see you have freebooter as one of your clans but you were stating no more +1 to hit?
gungo wrote: Nob loves pk or bc
Probably best when in unit size 10 to give it some durability.
Bomb squigs are popular as are distraction grots depending on your playstyle
The ram is used as well but not really great as your just adding more points to a cheap unit.
Could not agree more. Bomb squigs are mandatory, distraction grot is....situational. With how heavy cover on the tabletop has become, and a players natural instinct to place units in or near cover, its a rare fight where my Kommandos aren't at least toeing cover. For the most part, I don't buy the grot anymore.
As far as the ram...its another situational upgrade, and if you have the points go for it, but I like to keep my units as cheap as possible so my opponents feels the worst possible when he has to designate heavy weapons to kill a 10pt model Nothing brings me joy like a Space Marine player targeting my Kommandos with a Multi-melta unit because hes scared of what will happen if those Kommandos get into his lines, and he knows that Bolters don't do very well against Kommandos in cover (Takes 13.5 bolter shots to kill 1 Kommando in cover)
Tomsug wrote: Speedking - 16% boost - from where does this number comes from? Written like this it seems to be more interesting…
If you reroll 1s, you reroll 1/6 dice rolls. And every die you reroll was a failure, of course. Then, on your reroll, you have the normal chance of success.
The math shakes out to being a 7/6 improvement in success rate, or about 16-17 percent.
Here is the math.
60 Ork hits wounding on 4s becomes 30 wounds, against a 4+ armor save thats 15dmg
Now, if you get re-rolling 1s to wound thats 10 re-rolls and 5 will wound and 2.5 will become dmg. 2.5 is 1/6th of 15, So you are increasing your dmg by 1/6th or 16.66%
GW has confirmed to axe the old ork boyz kit soon. For anyone who still has projects with ork bodies planned (kommadoz, for example), I suggest you get your boxes soon.
Jidmah wrote: GW has confirmed to axe the old ork boyz kit soon. For anyone who still has projects with ork bodies planned (kommadoz, for example), I suggest you get your boxes soon.
Atk out of the sun means you will never have 5++ becuase you can’t advance during your movement phase if you are entering from reserves. It cost 2 cp even if you use the ability to reduce 1 strat by 1 cp you are technically using that 1 cp reduction. I agree atk out of the sun is broken as written but if they nerf it so you can’t go into reserves on same turn you enter from reserves then it’s an overpriced strat compared to other armies who can do the same for 1cp. But the main reason I say atk out of the sun is alot of cp is Speed mob is cp intensive and I want those command points for crashing through, ramming speed, blitza Dakka, drive by Dakka, more gitz over here, and chaaarge!!
Speaking of charge!! That’s the main reason 9 warbikers are decent… because you can turn 9 warbikers w Bc/pk nob into a much bigger threat with +1str and -1ap each. Str5 ap-2 are significantly better at killing ‘meq and geq plus you have another unit you can use crashing through strat on! But you are correct smaller units of warbikers seem to be the more popular competitive list.
You also forgot deploy homers for your secondaries… speed mob allows you to advance up to 20in and still deploy homers.. but honestly all these secondaries look like they are changing in chapter approved in some way.
My main issue with speed mob other than heavy CP usage, and current lack of secondary options is that nob bikers are significantly weaker without red button, cloud of smoke and the extra wound… if they had those missing abilities then speed mob would have a unit that was at least a semi decent melee threat… however nob bikers was somehow overlooked. If nob bikers were fixed speed mob would be awesome! 3x3 nob bikers with pks would wreck some melee units on the charge.
Regarding your speeedmob list it’s fun because it makes orks post different but you do know you can trigger freebooter for the aircraft? I see you have freebooter as one of your clans but you were stating no more +1 to hit?
Yeah, 5++/6++ is an issue with Atk out of the sun. But still - the tactical flexiblity is huge. I put the koptas on the flank and deploy more or less symetricaly. In T1, one koptas march forward and then Atk and drop on the other side of the table and Hammer and Envil…
Charge - well, this has the few points
- moral issue. Until this is solved, we cannot mass this type of the unit.
- Nobz on Bikes lack all what you said + CORE keyword. Which is critical. This limits the waaagh, strategems etc…
- If the above issue solved, than I can see a wonderfull list with 3 squads of warbikers, 3 squads of Nob bikers and Ghazzy for the Great Waaagh
+1 to hit - you are right, I wrote it wrong. Wazbooms benefit from +1 to hit triggered by the rest of the detachement. What I wanted to say is that the context of the rule is totaly different. No more desperate hunt to trigger it asap. No. On the contrary! You shoot all your army and let the wazbooms on the end. Well, after about 50 rokket shots, 15 autocannon shots, 28 flamer shots and possibly over 100 big shoota shots, there is definitely something dead on the table. So you get +1 pretty sure.
But it is even better! If you go agains Harlequins/Druhkari, they spam small units and trigger -1 to hit to defend themselfs pretty easily. So you kill not one, but couple of units before shooting with wazbooms = you negate their -1 to hit by your 2x-3x +1 to hit on their big targets. Which is sweet.
Speed Mob is definitely not a variation of the freeboota buggy spam. It is a totaly different type of the army. And it is fun.
I saw in passing a post in an ork Group on facebook where they mentioned Early CA 2022 leaks which included the Wazbom going up 10-20pts, has anyone seen these and have a link?
SemperMortis wrote: I saw in passing a post in an ork Group on facebook where they mentioned Early CA 2022 leaks which included the Wazbom going up 10-20pts, has anyone seen these and have a link?
Wait, really? I hope that's not the case. The flyer changes seem like enough of a deterrent from "spamming" it already since it was really the mass flyer/squigbuggy spamming that made it really effective in a Freebooterz detachment.
Tomsug wrote: Speedking - 16% boost - from where does this number comes from? Written like this it seems to be more interesting…
If you reroll 1s, you reroll 1/6 dice rolls. And every die you reroll was a failure, of course. Then, on your reroll, you have the normal chance of success.
The math shakes out to being a 7/6 improvement in success rate, or about 16-17 percent.
Here is the math.
60 Ork hits wounding on 4s becomes 30 wounds, against a 4+ armor save thats 15dmg
Now, if you get re-rolling 1s to wound thats 10 re-rolls and 5 will wound and 2.5 will become dmg. 2.5 is 1/6th of 15, So you are increasing your dmg by 1/6th or 16.66%
Be careful, you get different results depending on where do you apply the modifier. See the table below modeling this on +1. Different context makes difference on the end in the range from about 12 % to 100%
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote: I saw in passing a post in an ork Group on facebook where they mentioned Early CA 2022 leaks which included the Wazbom going up 10-20pts, has anyone seen these and have a link?
Oh no gak sake… I hope they make the Raiders and Talons and other Drukhari stuff cheaper to balance it.
SemperMortis wrote: I saw in passing a post in an ork Group on facebook where they mentioned Early CA 2022 leaks which included the Wazbom going up 10-20pts, has anyone seen these and have a link?
The only CA 2022 leaks I've seen (which also included Hive Guard increasing in cost by 55%) were debunked and deleted, so hopefully this is what you saw too
Incognito15 wrote: Just got orks new codex is there any mission books/ whatever that are beneficial if i want to play at a tournament for them?
Thanks!
well i guess the Warzone Octarius Critical mass is beneficial for orks if you intend to run anything as blood axes or the new army of renown with speed freeks.
The Wazbom going up 19% might be "no change". The pictures show a DG Fleshmower going up 19% (no change), VolCons going up 53% (nerfed), LasCons 11% (buffed). Only odd one I looked at is Necron Wraiths going up 29% rather than 11% or 19%.
If they change the missions, the secondaries and the points all in one book, this is could be 40k 9.5.
Tomsug wrote: Speedking - 16% boost - from where does this number comes from? Written like this it seems to be more interesting…
If you reroll 1s, you reroll 1/6 dice rolls. And every die you reroll was a failure, of course. Then, on your reroll, you have the normal chance of success.
The math shakes out to being a 7/6 improvement in success rate, or about 16-17 percent.
Here is the math.
60 Ork hits wounding on 4s becomes 30 wounds, against a 4+ armor save thats 15dmg
Now, if you get re-rolling 1s to wound thats 10 re-rolls and 5 will wound and 2.5 will become dmg. 2.5 is 1/6th of 15, So you are increasing your dmg by 1/6th or 16.66%
Be careful, you get different results depending on where do you apply the modifier. See the table below modeling this on +1. Different context makes difference on the end in the range from about 12 % to 100%
If all modifiers are multiplicative, the order doesn't matter. Basic math
Re-rolls and re-roll ones are multiplicative, +1 to hit or wound are not.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incognito15 wrote: Just got orks new codex is there any mission books/ whatever that are beneficial if i want to play at a tournament for them?
Thanks!
Just the codex is fine. You can get Warzone Octarius if you want to play one of those two armies in it, but it's not required by any means. If you are running pressure or buggy builds lists, you don't need it at all.
koooaei wrote: There's nothing to write home about in the blood axe supplement. Maybe cancelling cover saves is situationally useful.
I would say the blood axe supplement is well worth it if youre running blood axes already. So far Ive gotten good use out of the warlord trait Extra Kunnin, and the strategems "Surprize" and "spotted em" are good buffs for kommandos that you were gonna run anyways. "Got em trapped" and "tactical awareness" are niche but when you need them theyre very handy.
I could see arguments for the warlord trait dukk n cova as well as the straight shoota, but I feel like WLT's and Relics are better on punchy characters for the most part and having a mek with Extra Kunnin/Finkin cap already means Im down one punchy character.
Its not a huge buff overall, but it has some good abilities. I wouldnt buy the book personally unless I was playing a lot of events, thats a lot of cash for a few pages of rules.
If all modifiers are multiplicative, the order doesn't matter. Basic math
Re-rolls and re-roll ones are multiplicative, +1 to hit or wound are not.
That is different very interesting. Are you able to explain it deeper?
Because that is the truth in the word of rational numbers. But D6 world is not the world of rational numbers. It is the world of integer numbers. In every step you round the numbers. And the round up or down in hit roll is that multiplied in wound, save and FNP roll. That is the root of my assumption that the moment the reroll is applied can change the result.
But maybe I ' m wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, this looks like new CA every 6months
GW really need to get their priorities straight. Release all the codices first, THEN focus on the campaign stuff. This drip feed release is only made dumber that they've tied digital codices to physical purchases, which is completely bonkers and backwards.
that sounds like my typical luck with Ramming Speed. Never fail the charge, even if its a pretty lengthy one, but i almost ALWAYS fail the damn 2+ check afterwords.
Theres a reason theres a joke that i never run MANz anymore because they have a 2+ armor (legit, the 3 games i brought a squad of manz they died to....bolter fire....and not an obscene amount either)
Vineheart01 wrote: that sounds like my typical luck with Ramming Speed. Never fail the charge, even if its a pretty lengthy one, but i almost ALWAYS fail the damn 2+ check afterwords.
Theres a reason theres a joke that i never run MANz anymore because they have a 2+ armor (legit, the 3 games i brought a squad of manz they died to....bolter fire....and not an obscene amount either)
Haha! It does feel weird when you're playing Orks, it's as if you're not allowed to pass 2+ rolls with them but you can pass all the 6+ or 5+ invuln saves in the world. I've learned this the hard way trying to play Deffwing with Orks. I've become infamous in my gaming group for somehow passing an absurd amount of KFF saves. Which makes me all the more sad I can only do that now for one turn unless I'm playing Speed Mob or something :(
Vineheart01 wrote: that sounds like my typical luck with Ramming Speed. Never fail the charge, even if its a pretty lengthy one, but i almost ALWAYS fail the damn 2+ check afterwords.
Theres a reason theres a joke that i never run MANz anymore because they have a 2+ armor (legit, the 3 games i brought a squad of manz they died to....bolter fire....and not an obscene amount either)
No kidding. Ive failed a lot of +2 rolls for mortal wounds on charges too. Whether its a gargantuan squiggoth charge or ramming speed doesnt matter.
Last time i used my gargantuan squiggoth i made 3 charges, and 2 of them failed to roll 2+ so i couldnt deal that sweet D6 mortal wounds.
In theory you should almost never fail it but it sucks ass when it does.
Like, you pay 500 points for a gargantuan squiggoth which has little going for it, the least it could do was get a guaranteed mortal wounds roll off rather than rolling a 2+. I can understand rolling for it on ramming speed because you already get value from it by rolling 3D6s. But the irongob seems like a weird relic. You pay only for that effect. Which can fail but isnt really meant to.
Vineheart01 wrote: that sounds like my typical luck with Ramming Speed.
Never fail the charge, even if its a pretty lengthy one, but i almost ALWAYS fail the damn 2+ check afterwords.
Theres a reason theres a joke that i never run MANz anymore because they have a 2+ armor (legit, the 3 games i brought a squad of manz they died to....bolter fire....and not an obscene amount either)
No kidding. Ive failed a lot of +2 rolls for mortal wounds on charges too. Whether its a gargantuan squiggoth charge or ramming speed doesnt matter.
Last time i used my gargantuan squiggoth i made 3 charges, and 2 of them failed to roll 2+ so i couldnt deal that sweet D6 mortal wounds.
In theory you should almost never fail it but it sucks ass when it does.
Like, you pay 500 points for a gargantuan squiggoth which has little going for it, the least it could do was get a guaranteed mortal wounds roll off rather than rolling a 2+. I can understand rolling for it on ramming speed because you already get value from it by rolling 3D6s. But the irongob seems like a weird relic. You pay only for that effect. Which can fail but isnt really meant to.
I've always thought that the IronGob should have been a way to inflict "attacks last" in addition to the D3 mortals to an enemy unit and at the very start of the fight phase as well instead of at the end that it bizarrely is right now. You'd think that an Ork would start with a headbutt rather than only after they started fighting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: New Tau Hammerhead stats are out:
It looks like a pretty hard counter to dreadnought spam in the current meta, and depending on its cost and how limited it is in being taken, I can see them popping a buggy a turn. Not sure if this heavily affects Kill Rig lists but it might shift more people to the Alphork strike list due to it's ability to bypass invulns.
Honestly the biggest effect it may have on orks lists is not how it affects us, but how it affects the meta. As in it doesnt really affect us directly, but it may change what we see other armies running in the future, which will mean our lists may have to change in response. Because personally, all my tanks save my kannonwagon are much cheaper than a hammerhead and die in one shot. The kannonwagon can be one 1 wound for all I care, it still hits on 4's.
Honestly the hammerheads biggest worry for me is if it gets a lucky shot on a key trukk boy unit, since its pretty much guaranteed to take that trukkboy unit out of the fight for a while. Even then, everything in a tau list is threat to a trukk, right down to the gun drones and fire warriors. Im hoping that the threat of kommandos will keep a tau player occupied if they get turn 1, but depending on what all they have to ignore cover it could be rough
I don't think the Hammerhead will be used all that often in all honesty. A one per detachment type of deal at most.
Hear me out.
It absolutely annihilates whatever single target it hits at a very good range, regardless of whether it's a knight, a monster or character. Two HHs stand a pretty good chance of killing anything that normal 40k can reasonably field, barring things like Ghaz or C'Tan.
These will 100% be priority number one for anyone facing them, and will be shot off the table as soon as possible to prevent them nuking your expensive stuff. I don't see GW making the HH super durable without it being made absurdly expensive to compensate, so it should be killable pretty quickly if you can get LOS on it.
Taking three HH's is going to be overkill and wasted points except against pure Knights lists and Bid Monster Mash or something. One isn't enough because it gets killed straight away, so two is the magic number. The rest of the list will be full of things like burst cannons and blast weapons to deal with infantry and chip everything else down.
There's also the factor that the HH presents some super big, super spooky numbers. People don't want their stuff getting one shot, so they either lean in to infantry so that the firepower is wasted, or lean eeeven further into AT alpha strike to kill the HH before it can do anything. Either way, the HH suffers where other more flexible units prosper.
I think the HH will be seen infrequently, but will absolutely matter when it does show up.
Orks are always anti-meta skew lists. We will adapt, we will overcome.
Tomsug wrote: Ability to bypass our 6++ (ok, sometimes 5++) is not so dramatic.
But the Deldar and Deamons cry like a hell…
I’m more worried about Submunitions.
Killing 4 (or less, if Nurgle) lesser daemons ain’t a big deal. Greater Daemons aren’t worth it to me before this.
But the ability to drop 8 MW if the squad is at 12? That’s brutal.
Afrodactyl wrote: I don't think the Hammerhead will be used all that often in all honesty. A one per detachment type of deal at most.
Hear me out.
It absolutely annihilates whatever single target it hits at a very good range, regardless of whether it's a knight, a monster or character. Two HHs stand a pretty good chance of killing anything that normal 40k can reasonably field, barring things like Ghaz or C'Tan.
These will 100% be priority number one for anyone facing them, and will be shot off the table as soon as possible to prevent them nuking your expensive stuff. I don't see GW making the HH super durable without it being made absurdly expensive to compensate, so it should be killable pretty quickly if you can get LOS on it.
Taking three HH's is going to be overkill and wasted points except against pure Knights lists and Bid Monster Mash or something. One isn't enough because it gets killed straight away, so two is the magic number. The rest of the list will be full of things like burst cannons and blast weapons to deal with infantry and chip everything else down.
There's also the factor that the HH presents some super big, super spooky numbers. People don't want their stuff getting one shot, so they either lean in to infantry so that the firepower is wasted, or lean eeeven further into AT alpha strike to kill the HH before it can do anything. Either way, the HH suffers where other more flexible units prosper.
I think the HH will be seen infrequently, but will absolutely matter when it does show up.
Orks are always anti-meta skew lists. We will adapt, we will overcome.
I would personally be concerned with the firepower of the heavy rail rifle carried by the battlesuits. These guys have more shots and more flexible loadouts that might make them very nasty against our tactic of buggy and plane spam. Alpha strike might gain another boost due to those. Also, the Hammerhead is definitely going to hurt a lot the Kill Rig list. It does a ridiculous amount of damage.
Afrodactyl wrote: I don't think the Hammerhead will be used all that often in all honesty. A one per detachment type of deal at most.
Hear me out.
It absolutely annihilates whatever single target it hits at a very good range, regardless of whether it's a knight, a monster or character. Two HHs stand a pretty good chance of killing anything that normal 40k can reasonably field, barring things like Ghaz or C'Tan.
These will 100% be priority number one for anyone facing them, and will be shot off the table as soon as possible to prevent them nuking your expensive stuff. I don't see GW making the HH super durable without it being made absurdly expensive to compensate, so it should be killable pretty quickly if you can get LOS on it.
Taking three HH's is going to be overkill and wasted points except against pure Knights lists and Bid Monster Mash or something. One isn't enough because it gets killed straight away, so two is the magic number. The rest of the list will be full of things like burst cannons and blast weapons to deal with infantry and chip everything else down.
There's also the factor that the HH presents some super big, super spooky numbers. People don't want their stuff getting one shot, so they either lean in to infantry so that the firepower is wasted, or lean eeeven further into AT alpha strike to kill the HH before it can do anything. Either way, the HH suffers where other more flexible units prosper.
I think the HH will be seen infrequently, but will absolutely matter when it does show up.
Orks are always anti-meta skew lists. We will adapt, we will overcome.
I agree - I'm no more afraid of this thing than I am of a doomsday ark, eradicators or a wazzbom. Deleting armor with a single shooting phase is nothing new, the only difference is that they do it with a single shot. Make sure to launch that cloud of smoke.
Egh main thing is the invul ignoring.. killrigs already faced a ton of stuff that basically made it’s save 6++ and did a ton of damage… a single hammer head even w max damage still can’t kill it. Ghaz would be the only unit we have that could have cared and he doesn’t care at all.
This unit basically trashes armies like grey knights, knights and even the new tyranid monster mash army of renown. The hammerhead is going to be over 200pts and be a 1 shot wonder…
Honestly the main issue I see with this is power creep is out of control.. seriously how is this weapon better then almost every superheavy titanic weapon or the silly deathstrike missile guard has that is 1 shot and takes several turns to fire and a worse to hit.
It's funny seeing firepower increases like this for other factions. best things we got were the buffs to kmb and tellyport blastas, which are only on a small handful of units.
Note that it's a single shot unit, and might cost a lot of points. The thing has to hit and wound (still on 3s vs T8). With -1 to hit it might even hit on 4s.
If this already worries you, what about the last sentence in which GW says that's not even the best gun Tau have?
Blackie wrote: Note that it's a single shot unit, and might cost a lot of points. The thing has to hit and wound (still on 3s vs T8). With -1 to hit it might even hit on 4s.
If this already worries you, what about the last sentence in which GW says that's not even the best gun Tau have?
Exactly. And what if? Kill one kopta or one buggy. I can live with that.
It could also shred 8 of your kommandos in one go for 1CP. I dont really care about the weapon i just think its a bit sad that its flexible enough to also work against hordes for 1CP.
Just wanted to know general consensus for Boyz numbers. I’ve got 60 boyz (20 are the new combat patrol ones) and wondered how big to make units for non competitive but still efficient: mainly against necrons and Tau (I appreciate this is an unknown quantity at the mo). I’d like a mixture of shoota and slugga units. I had thought 2x 20 slugga and 2x 10 shoota- to grab objectives and do banners and such?
Blackie wrote: Stick with multiple 10 man mobs if you really want them, always. There's no advantage in bringing larger groups, only disadvantages.
Morale, blasts, coherency... are all major issues for large squads of boyz.
i always keep them in groups of 10. i just forgot it got +1 to deal mortal wounds on 11+ models not 10.
So yea against kommandos it would probably just shoot normally. even so an anti tanking weapon shredding 4 units with 1 shot is a bit sad. at least if it has nothing else to shoot at.
Beardedragon wrote: So yea against kommandos it would probably just shoot normally. even so an anti tanking weapon shredding 4 units with 1 shot is a bit sad. at least if it has nothing else to shoot at.
Pretty much every anti-tank weapon that is the primary gun on a battletank shreds 4 boyz, most of the panic about that think is a knee-jerk reaction. It doesn't really do anything other tanks can't also do, except it does it all in one shot instead of d6 blast.
3 eradicators also can delete 4 guys pretty reliably. I bet the cost of an hammered will be the same of 4-5 eradicators which, against our stuff, are much scarier than the tau gunboat and much more efficient against models like bikes, koptas, meganobz, etc... koptas in particular as at 4W the hammered can't kill more than one, just like killa kanz, anything else it can't kill more than two.
Sure. but i have a save value against those attacks.
Its a bit sad to watch a 72 inch long range gun deal over 10 wounds where some are mortals, without one being able to take a save or even invul save.
I mean to be perfectly clear this doesnt matter much to me as an ork player as i dont save gak anyway, but it matters if you play something else. Like knights.
Its a bit sad to watch a 72 inch long range gun deal over 10 wounds where some are mortals, without one being able to take a save or even invul save.
I mean to be perfectly clear this doesnt matter much to me as an ork player as i dont save gak anyway, but it matters if you play something else. Like knights.
Meltas are already AP-4 so we don't have any armour save at all or a 6+ (or 6++) at the very best. 5++ only in some specific cases. But even then since they fire more shots they'll likely do more damage than the hammeread. The hammered is good against armies that spam 4++ like GK or Custodes or models with T8 10+W and 4++ like Mortarion and knights. Against our vehicles or multiwounds models not so much. Eradicators at 45ppm have an higher return and they're also signficantly more durable than the tau vehicle.
Well, few days ago, I had a game againts GK and they sucked like a hell. No sv++ or fnp, nothing. And terrible shooting. Just slow guys. I shot down last unit from the table in T3 and lost 3 bikers and 1 scrapjet. I would be ready in T2 but I moved my wazbooms to far away and get them out of range in T2…
It was totaly weird. The guy obviously missed something very important in his rulebook…. If this “miss” was armywide 4++ than it starts to make sence…
Its a bit sad to watch a 72 inch long range gun deal over 10 wounds where some are mortals, without one being able to take a save or even invul save.
I mean to be perfectly clear this doesnt matter much to me as an ork player as i dont save gak anyway, but it matters if you play something else. Like knights.
Meltas are already AP-4 so we don't have any armour save at all or a 6+ (or 6++) at the very best. 5++ only in some specific cases. But even then since they fire more shots they'll likely do more damage than the hammeread. The hammered is good against armies that spam 4++ like GK or Custodes or models with T8 10+W and 4++ like Mortarion and knights. Against our vehicles or multiwounds models not so much. Eradicators at 45ppm have an higher return and they're also signficantly more durable than the tau vehicle.
well. if i run the army of renown this gun would hurt a lot given the entire army basically has a 5++.
personally i think its a bit of an army creep when we start giving ranged weapons the ability to by pass parts of the game, in this case invul saves (and god how i hate auto wound ranged weapons too). I can understand it on close combat units, maybe, because more is involved and its harder to get in to CC. But for ranged attacks to just point and shoot i dont think there should be any invul by passes. There is already an advantage to be had by not needing to get in to CC.
Its not so much that it has to be a big deal for me playing this army as im.. right now not really fielding any real vehicles but i just dont think ranged weapons should by pass invul saves. i fear this tau codex is going to blow everything out the park when its released like Admech did (and still does). I dont hope it will but i fear it will as GW has never been too good to "make up for" something.
When a unit becomes trukk boyz does it lose its ability to benefit from the clan its a part of? IE no longer getting exploding 6s if part of a goff detachment. I'm confused about clan vs kulture.
I'm sure this has been answered ready in the thread, but I don't want to spend all day digging!
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: When a unit becomes trukk boyz does it lose its ability to benefit from the clan its a part of? IE no longer getting exploding 6s if part of a goff detachment. I'm confused about clan vs kulture.
I'm sure this has been answered ready in the thread, but I don't want to spend all day digging!
Cheers!
Yes.
Be careful with the Warbosses. They can be the Trukkboyz but than affect just another trukkboyz. But you can put them in the trukk as not trukboyz alongside the trukkboyz.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Rare situation. Jidmah was wrong. And mee too.
I hate to burst your bubble, but it says "staying on sale" yeah...because they have a stockpile of them they need to sell first, once that mold breaks or they need the time/infrastructure for something else those are gone.
Also on the Tau hammerhead, it impacts heavily the ork meta lists of spamming Buggies. Insta killing a 90pt model a turn is a good investment for them. Turn 1 they shoot and kill 3 buggies all from beyond the range of the buggies. Turn 2 they do it again.
the biggest factor in determining if these are good will be price. I they are 240+ maybe, but if they only get a 10-20% bump in price they will be super competitive.
I mean the hammer head is 3+ to hit w reroll. ork buggies still using that -1 to hit turn 1 strat… so we are at 4+ to hit w reroll and then a 2+ wound and then average 8 wounds with 3 mortals… so if it does hit and wound you are looking at 1 dead buggy for a unit that likely costs 200+. There are a lot of weapons including the old rail gun that was able to do this before… the big thing w this gun is ignoring invuls which I don’t really understand since that’s the point of mortal wounds….
Honestly I don’t think the hammerhead is going to be the problem .. if this is a sign of other units going up beware of units like the big battle suits.
Regarding the ork boy kit I think they saw the complaints online everywhere..about the new kit… however I agree the sale of this kit will probably only last as long as the mould holds up.. fortunately plastic injection moulds last a very long time (500k-1,000,000+ cycles).
Hopefully not off topic:
Santa brought me a BossBunka (because why not). The main model footprint is 4x3, but if the 'legs' are attached it grows to 6x6. At that size it can't be legally placed on a table w/o being too close to a terrain piece. Question: Is it acceptable to leave the legs (or buttresses or whatever they are) off, or is that modelling for advantage?
Goreshrek wrote: Hopefully not off topic:
Santa brought me a BossBunka (because why not). The main model footprint is 4x3, but if the 'legs' are attached it grows to 6x6. At that size it can't be legally placed on a table w/o being too close to a terrain piece. Question: Is it acceptable to leave the legs (or buttresses or whatever they are) off, or is that modelling for advantage?
If you are leaving parts off to change the model's footprint, yeah that's modeling for advantage. Fortifications are pretty much worthless in matched play right now.
If you are playing garage hammer or narrative, I suggest giving the planet fall rules from Crusade Mission Pack: Containment a go, it has actually functional rules for fortifications.
Thanks for the response. That is what i was thinking. I pretty much play garage hammer, wanted to figure out a way to use it just because. And it would complement the squiggoth in my current army list. Doing the same list as everyone else is boring to me.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: When a unit becomes trukk boyz does it lose its ability to benefit from the clan its a part of? IE no longer getting exploding 6s if part of a goff detachment. I'm confused about clan vs kulture.
I'm sure this has been answered ready in the thread, but I don't want to spend all day digging!
Cheers!
It is no longer part of their original clan in any way shape or form. Think of it as klan <trukk boyz>. For example if you take a warboss trukk boy, he'd only buff <trukk boyz> units. Hed get no access to the original klan's strats, relics, abilities, etc.
Jidmah wrote: Knights lose one knight if they are unlucky and then all three hamerheads die.
There is a 40% chance of the hammerhead failing to do damage, and you still get to do stuff like -1 damage or FNP.
If these guns see play at all, they will mostly hurt terminator armies like DG or GK.
How they die? Those 3 HH's will be shooting knight behind obscuring terrain. It would work vs targets that can't hide behind obscuring but knights HH's are just shooting all day long behind obscuring terrain and knights aren't exactly known for having LOS ignoring firepower.
Knight armies are the ones that are screwed most by HH's. Can't hide, can't shoot back at them, multiple screen units blocking charges for a while. 3+ to hit with reroll, way to get +1 to hit, 3+ to wound and CP reroll available.
That is also true for every other anti-tank weapon and they still manage. It's not like something like a PBC or doomsday ark or wazzbom can't do the exact same thing and we still see knights topping tournaments.
Hiding three tanks is not as easy as you make it sound.
Snazzwagon - this buggy is currently pretty bad. I was thinking about why and how to improve it.
The answer is simple.
It needs more dakka
The weapon profile is stupid. 5/-2/2 is
1) duplicit with the squigbuggies
2) DMG weapons suffer by -1DMG everywhere around
3) for killing soft targets, S5 is pretty stupid
4) AP -2 shifted to -3 is also pretty much burried either by invu or simply because the default save of the right targets is pretty often on 6+/5+
What could shift the Snazzwagon to be great is Dakkajet weapon profile 6/-1/1
This will makes him long range GEQ killer and it becames usefull.
I run it regularly, and honestly I don't think it's too bad. Not the best of the bunch, but you get your points worth of buggy. It also does some pretty nice vehicle shredding for me with the DS stratagem.
What would make it really cool though would be the ability to gain objective secured or perform actions as if it were infantry.
Tomsug wrote: Snazzwagon - this buggy is currently pretty bad. I was thinking about why and how to improve it.
The answer is simple.
It needs more dakka
The weapon profile is stupid. 5/-2/2 is
1) duplicit with the squigbuggies
2) DMG weapons suffer by -1DMG everywhere around
3) for killing soft targets, S5 is pretty stupid
4) AP -2 shifted to -3 is also pretty much burried either by invu or simply because the default save of the right targets is pretty often on 6+/5+
What could shift the Snazzwagon to be great is Dakkajet weapon profile 6/-1/1
This will makes him long range GEQ killer and it becames usefull.
Something like Dakka 40/30 hur hur
I prefer the Snazzwagon over the KBB at the moment. For me it serves as kind of a middle ground between the Rukkatrukk and the Scrapjet. The Rukkatrukk sits back and pelts everything from out of sight, the Scrapjet gets in the opponents face and smashes stuff.
The Snazzwagon sits somewhere in between and plinks wounds off things that the Scrapjet has almost killed, or doubles down on what the Rukkatrukks are shooting at already.
The KBB feels like the outlier to me at the moment, but who knows how that will change in the coming months.
I just feel like the KBB doesn't really know what it wants to achieve. Having a big range in the main gun feels like it wants to sit back, but then you're wasting the four flamers and the ram. But then you get close to use the flamers and ram and it just dies. The gun also feels like it doesn't have enough shots, or have good enough shots for the quantity it already has.
The Snazzwagon just feels like a Rukkatrukk that has to have LOS, which is still a good thing in my opinion.
It might just be my garbage dice rolling that turns me away from the KBB, or I might just be using it completely wrong. Who knows.
Assuming SWG stands for Snazzwagon, I run a squad of two.
Jidmah wrote: I run it regularly, and honestly I don't think it's too bad. Not the best of the bunch, but you get your points worth of buggy. It also does some pretty nice vehicle shredding for me with the DS stratagem.
What would make it really cool though would be the ability to gain objective secured or perform actions as if it were infantry.
Jidmah wrote: I run it regularly, and honestly I don't think it's too bad. Not the best of the bunch, but you get your points worth of buggy. It also does some pretty nice vehicle shredding for me with the DS stratagem.
What would make it really cool though would be the ability to gain objective secured or perform actions as if it were infantry.
Yeah. That would be great.
Are you sure, you can use Wreckers on Snazzwagon?
You shouldn't be able to AFAIK. A lot of the new strats only allow you to use it on CORE units.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DoktaRoksta wrote: Built my Kill Rig today, FYI if you are building this the instructions are terrible and wrong so get advice from someone who has built one.
Really? I haven't built mine yet, that's surprising since I thought that for the most part, GW instruction manuals have mostly gotten better compared to before. I know building the stompa was a bit of a pain the ass figuring out the angles of putting stuff together.
Really? I haven't built mine yet, that's surprising since I thought that for the most part, GW instruction manuals have mostly gotten better compared to before. I know building the stompa was a bit of a pain the ass figuring out the angles of putting stuff together.
Yeah, in the instructions some of the pieces are misnumbered, some aren’t numbered at all (in the instructions) and don’t put the heavy lobber mount where they tell you to or you can’t mount a heavy lobber there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and you have to decide if you want it painted beautifully or you want it to play soon. I went with the latter
Jidmah wrote: I run it regularly, and honestly I don't think it's too bad. Not the best of the bunch, but you get your points worth of buggy. It also does some pretty nice vehicle shredding for me with the DS stratagem.
What would make it really cool though would be the ability to gain objective secured or perform actions as if it were infantry.
Yeah. That would be great.
Are you sure, you can use Wreckers on Snazzwagon?
Feth me, you're right. I didn't even notice the change to core only
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DoktaRoksta wrote: Oh and you have to decide if you want it painted beautifully or you want it to play soon. I went with the latter
Yeah, that seems to be true for pretty much every newer model these days.
Afrodactyl wrote: I just feel like the KBB doesn't really know what it wants to achieve. Having a big range in the main gun feels like it wants to sit back, but then you're wasting the four flamers and the ram. But then you get close to use the flamers and ram and it just dies. The gun also feels like it doesn't have enough shots, or have good enough shots for the quantity it already has.
The Snazzwagon just feels like a Rukkatrukk that has to have LOS, which is still a good thing in my opinion.
It might just be my garbage dice rolling that turns me away from the KBB, or I might just be using it completely wrong. Who knows.
Assuming SWG stands for Snazzwagon, I run a squad of two.
Yeah, it is a lot about finding the buggy the right position in the list and plan you play.
I usually play some kind of Hammer and Envil and KBBs are the Hammer. I start the main attack on one side with scrapjets and tons of koptas. KBBs are the onlyone who goes the other side alongisde the small biker squads. Later the koptas jumps to their side and hammer hit the envil. Flamers cuts the geqs on the weaker flank of the opponents army, rivetcannon do the autocannon thinks.
The situation is, that the Snazzwagon is the only buggy I do not have yet. And I wanna paint them this winter/spring. But I struggle to find them the spot in my list…
DoktaRoksta wrote: Built my Kill Rig today, FYI if you are building this the instructions are terrible and wrong so get advice from someone who has built one.
built mine about a month ago and noticed that the instructions mislabelled some of the part numbers. Also, whoever designed the tower retaining cables didn't account for how fiddly they would be when transporting the model.
Any thoughts and suggestions welcome. I've submitted my list so that can't change but thoughts on secondaries and any issues with the terrain are appreciated.
Any thoughts and suggestions welcome. I've submitted my list so that can't change but thoughts on secondaries and any issues with the terrain are appreciated.
Go for 54 bikers by fielding warbikers and nobs on warbikes.
Not that i know if its good or bad but because bikers! and waaagh!
Any thoughts and suggestions welcome. I've submitted my list so that can't change but thoughts on secondaries and any issues with the terrain are appreciated.
Very similar to the list I currently run. I've found that people have a really hard time shifting the maxed squads of bikers. But my local meta doesn't have any of the heavy hitters you'll see in tournament (Druhkari, Ad Mech).
I like the double wazbomb. I was running a dakkajet and wazbomb, but it was too much mid range firepower and not enough antitank.
An all bike army would be the dream alrite. The nob bikers are woeful. They need to be minus 1.
If anyone has suggestions for priority targets against drukhari thicc city it'd be helpful.
I've been toying with paying 3 CP to start the planes off the board trying to hide the rest but that only works if they opponent doesn't have indirect fire.
An all bike army would be the dream alrite. The nob bikers are woeful. They need to be minus 1.
If anyone has suggestions for priority targets against drukhari thicc city it'd be helpful.
I've been toying with paying 3 CP to start the planes off the board trying to hide the rest but that only works if they opponent doesn't have indirect fire.
Do each of my deffkoptas get to fire their stikkbombs as well as their slugga and kopta rokkits because they are vehicles or does only one of them get to use it. 5d6 ap-1 for two turns isn't nothing ...
Any thoughts and suggestions welcome. I've submitted my list so that can't change but thoughts on secondaries and any issues with the terrain are appreciated.
By the way, please let me know how this list does in your tournament. I have a local salty necron player who insists that a maxed bike list would "sweep any tournament" because I beat his so badly every time I play against him with my list.
Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote: Assuming there are no special rules at your store/tournament disallowing multiple detachments, then it is perfectly legal.
exactly this. A lot of friendly tournaments and even competitive ones, will set limits on # of detachments allowed. I played an escalation league recently where it started with 1 detachment, and went to 2 when we hit the 1k point mark and then finally we went up to 3 for 1,500+.
Always ask before building a list, i'm paranoid and bring extra models just in case but thats me.
Ok, I’ll ask my opponent.
I was more wondering about 750pt patrols because the core rule book says 0-500pts is a patrol but I guess that could be a guideline. My opponent is fine with it btw.
CaptainO wrote: Do each of my deffkoptas get to fire their stikkbombs as well as their slugga and kopta rokkits because they are vehicles or does only one of them get to use it. 5d6 ap-1 for two turns isn't nothing ...
No, unfortunately the way things are worded, vehicles aren't exempt from the rules of restricting what you fire for pistols/grenades unless you have explicit bespoke rules like KBB and Snazzwagons.
DoktaRoksta wrote: Ok, I’ll ask my opponent.
I was more wondering about 750pt patrols because the core rule book says 0-500pts is a patrol but I guess that could be a guideline. My opponent is fine with it btw.
I think you are mixing up detachment names and game size names (they are similarly named just to be confusing). Combat patrol games are 0-500, patrol detachments are not linked in any way to that, you can take whatever you like (unless there are local event house rules so still a good idea to check).
DoktaRoksta wrote: Ok, I’ll ask my opponent. I was more wondering about 750pt patrols because the core rule book says 0-500pts is a patrol but I guess that could be a guideline. My opponent is fine with it btw.
I think you are mixing up detachment names and game size names (they are similarly named just to be confusing). Combat patrol games are 0-500, patrol detachments are not linked in any way to that, you can take whatever you like (unless there are local event house rules so still a good idea to check).
That's wrong though. Unless you are playing knights, most game modes force you to use a single patrol detachment in combat patrol games. The only exception I'm aware of is the planet strike mission pack.
It's also worth noting that detachment limits are not a house or event rule, but a fixed part of detachment rules - if you go over the detachment limit, your army will no longer be battleforged. Not only does this make your army illegal for some mission packs (GT2021, for example), but also causes you to lose access to stratagems and CP.
DoktaRoksta wrote: Ok, I’ll ask my opponent.
I was more wondering about 750pt patrols because the core rule book says 0-500pts is a patrol but I guess that could be a guideline. My opponent is fine with it btw.
I think you are mixing up detachment names and game size names (they are similarly named just to be confusing). Combat patrol games are 0-500, patrol detachments are not linked in any way to that, you can take whatever you like (unless there are local event house rules so still a good idea to check).
That's wrong though. Unless you are playing knights, most game modes force you to use a single patrol detachment in combat patrol games. The only exception I'm aware of is the planet strike mission pack.
It's also worth noting that detachment limits are not a house or event rule, but a fixed part of detachment rules - if you go over the detachment limit, your army will no longer be battleforged. Not only does this make your army illegal for some mission packs (GT2021, for example), but also causes you to lose access to stratagems and CP.
So if I want CP and stratagems I need to run 3 patrols at 1500pts or 2 patrols and say a vanguard?
My experience - with not so great win rate honestly and valid just for Buggy army:
1. What I face?
- 3-6 raiders with various types of units with supporting characters
- 1-2 squads of Taloses (3 in each)
- some surfing guys
2. Surfing guys are the food for my squiglaunchas. That is fine.
3. Problem are the infatry + character squads in your face. So I tend to kill Raiders first to slow them down and try to shoot the infantry down.
4. The worst are Grotesques - you really don' t want to fight with them.
5. And the far worsest are the Talons. Incredible hard to kill and can easily kill my vehicles. So I try to avoid them. They have short range. But are pretty fast, so not easy. Telyporting Koptas help a lot to make them move the right way.
So if I want CP and stratagems I need to run 3 patrols at 1500pts or 2 patrols and say a vanguard?
Not necessarily. It's 3 detachments at most, for a 1500 points game (1001-2000), not minimum. You can field a single one if you want. For most armies a single patrol is enough for a game that size, even orks can do it. Not 4 detachments or more though, that's illegal for a battleforged army.
DoktaRoksta wrote: So if I want CP and stratagems I need to run 3 patrols at 1500pts or 2 patrols and say a vanguard?
At 1500 points, you are playing an incursion game where you can have maximum of 3 detachments. You are allowed to run any type of detachment and you are allowed run less than 3.
So, 3 patrols would be fine, as would be 2 patrols plus a vanguard.
My experience - with not so great win rate honestly and valid just for Buggy army:
1. What I face?
- 3-6 raiders with various types of units with supporting characters
- 1-2 squads of Taloses (3 in each)
- some surfing guys
2. Surfing guys are the food for my squiglaunchas. That is fine.
3. Problem are the infatry + character squads in your face. So I tend to kill Raiders first to slow them down and try to shoot the infantry down.
4. The worst are Grotesques - you really don' t want to fight with them.
5. And the far worsest are the Talons. Incredible hard to kill and can easily kill my vehicles. So I try to avoid them. They have short range. But are pretty fast, so not easy. Telyporting Koptas help a lot to make them move the right way.
What next?
I honestly think the best way to deal with drukari is still the old way of trying to alpha strike them before power from pain becomes unbearable to deal with. So freebooter speedwaagh…. Although I dont have any experience trying a goff pressure list… even with first turn charges I don’t know if that’s enough to seriously dent drukari thicc city with an alpha strike…to be fair drukari is everyone’s worst matchup right now and I don’t see the meta changing until drukari is addressed at which point barring any excessive ork point changes in chapter approved I think orks are postitioned well once drukari becomes more reasonable.
One of my few learnings against drukhari is that castling up has value to be able to decide which buggies get to live for later. Scrapjets are good meatshields as they have an extra wound and give some non-trivial overwatch fire. Leave enough space to fall back so you can shoot what needs to be shot.
Warbosses need to be hidden away to be able to use them for counter-charges, otherwise they are toast before they fight.
Use kommadoz with terrain to deny good spots for the boats to land.
That said, I haven't played them after the last nerf - the only drukhari player in our group was removed for various reasons.
Hey guys, I'm planning to have a relatively fun game soon with a friend that plays Craftworld Eldar and I didn't want to hit him with something too competitive but I also don't want to bring a joke list, so I was debating using a Blood Axe based list since they have the new supplement stuff that I'm interested in trying out. We're playing about 1500 points. Any suggestions as to what works best with Blood Axes at this point? I was considering taking 3 Scrapjets that I could redeploy as needed into Strategic Reserves with the WL trait and probably 3x10 man squads of Kommandos. Maybe a MA Big Mek with the Blood Axe relic shoota and then a Warboss on Warbike to use the Killa Klaw. I do also want the Finkin' Kap, so I might use it on a Weirdboy or a regular Warboss. I'm also debating trying out one squad of 30 shoota boyz to just try out the Speshul Ammo strat. I know that won't be optimal, but if it'll be semi-useful against anybody, it'll be against T3 squishy elves. Thinking of rounding off the army with a kannonwagon or something. Anyone else have any advice with what works best with the new BA strats and rules?
The short version is that the player was a WAACTFG. People would rather not attend our regular game days at all than risk a chance of playing against them. Despite multiple talks and last chances they continued their behavior, so we got rid of them.
It seems Battlescribe does not currently support the new War Zone Octarius book 2, at least I can't seem to find a way to bring up the new detachment rules.
Are they planning on supporting this in the future?
Maybe, maybe not. The data people aren't the same as the guy who developed battlescribe. The developer has gone AWOL and BS is no longer being developed, so the data teams might see people disappearing as well.
TedNugent wrote: It seems Battlescribe does not currently support the new War Zone Octarius book 2, at least I can't seem to find a way to bring up the new detachment rules.
Are they planning on supporting this in the future?
It does. I use it for my Speed Mob for couple of weeks already.
1. What kind of Orks do you use? Orks v37 (the lower number) is right. Orks v117 are old codex.
2. In first detachement in Configuration select Army of Renown and that it is.
Grimskul wrote: Hey guys, I'm planning to have a relatively fun game soon with a friend that plays Craftworld Eldar and I didn't want to hit him with something too competitive but I also don't want to bring a joke list, so I was debating using a Blood Axe based list since they have the new supplement stuff that I'm interested in trying out. We're playing about 1500 points. Any suggestions as to what works best with Blood Axes at this point? I was considering taking 3 Scrapjets that I could redeploy as needed into Strategic Reserves with the WL trait and probably 3x10 man squads of Kommandos. Maybe a MA Big Mek with the Blood Axe relic shoota and then a Warboss on Warbike to use the Killa Klaw. I do also want the Finkin' Kap, so I might use it on a Weirdboy or a regular Warboss. I'm also debating trying out one squad of 30 shoota boyz to just try out the Speshul Ammo strat. I know that won't be optimal, but if it'll be semi-useful against anybody, it'll be against T3 squishy elves. Thinking of rounding off the army with a kannonwagon or something. Anyone else have any advice with what works best with the new BA strats and rules?
Blood axes lean hard into kommandos. If you want a fun list could run a bunch of stormboyz since they get some specific strats as well. Anything that has melee and shooting works well with blood axes, like buggies and koptas. Gives you lots of flexibility. Kannonwagons are also fun since they can fall back and shoot with blood axes very reliably, lets you not have to babysit them much.
Hmm interesting shift… Because of various reasons, we' re on full squads of buggies now. Thay have Dakka weapons. And there is a More Dakka strategem that was for me totaly under the radar. Until now.
Shift Twin Big Shootas on 3x Scrapjet from 36 to 60 shots for 2CP is not a must, but can make a significant difference betwen killed or just damaged. Call it about 10 more hits, which is about 5 dead GEQs. That could be a 5VP on primaries…
On KBB it is 18 -> 27 shots = 3 more hits…. Not so great.
Tomsug wrote: Hmm interesting shift… Because of various reasons, we' re on full squads of buggies now. Thay have Dakka weapons. And there is a More Dakka strategem that was for me totaly under the radar. Until now.
Shift Twin Big Shootas on 3x Scrapjet from 36 to 60 shots for 2CP is not a must, but can make a significant difference betwen killed or just damaged. Call it about 10 more hits, which is about 5 dead GEQs. That could be a 5VP on primaries…
On KBB it is 18 -> 27 shots = 3 more hits…. Not so great.
This should be for 1 CP definitely…
Problem is they are Ranged 36 one a relatively small board, the chances of needing that extra range or....minimal? but yeah, definitely something to keep in your back pocket if the absolute need arises. But lets put it this way.
36 Big shoota shots = 15 hits
60 Big shoota shots = 25 hits. so you are spot on when you say 10 more hits.
Against GEQ that is 6.66 more wounds and no AP so 4.44 dead GEQ. Against Marines its 1 extra dead Marine. So 4-5 GEQ or 1 Marine. Either way it works out to right around 20-30pts for 2CP. Or 10-15pts per CP. Would you spend 1CP to save 1-2 boyz a turn? No, then this isn't really worth it, its a waste unless you ABSOLUTELY need those last few wounds for whatever reason.
When the codex first dropped I ranked the Strats, this one would be in the lower of the tiers for sure.
Grimskul wrote: Hey guys, I'm planning to have a relatively fun game soon with a friend that plays Craftworld Eldar and I didn't want to hit him with something too competitive but I also don't want to bring a joke list, so I was debating using a Blood Axe based list since they have the new supplement stuff that I'm interested in trying out. We're playing about 1500 points. Any suggestions as to what works best with Blood Axes at this point? I was considering taking 3 Scrapjets that I could redeploy as needed into Strategic Reserves with the WL trait and probably 3x10 man squads of Kommandos. Maybe a MA Big Mek with the Blood Axe relic shoota and then a Warboss on Warbike to use the Killa Klaw. I do also want the Finkin' Kap, so I might use it on a Weirdboy or a regular Warboss. I'm also debating trying out one squad of 30 shoota boyz to just try out the Speshul Ammo strat. I know that won't be optimal, but if it'll be semi-useful against anybody, it'll be against T3 squishy elves. Thinking of rounding off the army with a kannonwagon or something. Anyone else have any advice with what works best with the new BA strats and rules?
Blood axes lean hard into kommandos. If you want a fun list could run a bunch of stormboyz since they get some specific strats as well. Anything that has melee and shooting works well with blood axes, like buggies and koptas. Gives you lots of flexibility. Kannonwagons are also fun since they can fall back and shoot with blood axes very reliably, lets you not have to babysit them much.
Thanks for the feedback and good call about the stormboyz! I was debating throwing a few min squads in to take advantage of the stratagem that lets you perform actions even after advancing. Not sure if it's worth taking them in 10 man squads. I don't want to edge too far into buggies since I feel like my friend might think I'm edging too far into a competitive list, though deffkoptas should be fine. Hopefully I'll finalize my list soon so I can have a more concrete list for people to review.
My local gaming area (or local before i moved, but regardless) is hosting warhammer 40k league which have been going on for 2 months now. The idea is that we have 2 games against two different people which which we have 2 months to complete. Each round we are allowed to change lists and even armies. I only have orks so ill stick to that. In the end, like half a year will pass and we will have around 6 games total to find the best player.
Once 2 months are over, a new round starts and you either advance upwards or fall downwards. So far, we've had the first round and im sitting as number one. I squashed a death guard player and a sisters of battle player pretty hard. I went with a freebootas list with 3 planes as its almost 2 months ago since we had that match and the new rules hadnt been implemented.
For my second round which just started now, i have to face off against sisters of battle and grey knights.
Ill be running this list which ive send in and cannot be changed so far. I hope it will go well. Normally i had deffkoptas instead of the squighogs, and maybe that would be wiser, but i kind of wanted to try out my squiggies. So ive run a different variation of this army, but i still think this is a solid list. Whether ill be successful or not ill let you know. Hopefully i can remain the best in my local club
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]
Clan Kultur: Goffs
Detachment Command Cost [-3CP]
+ No Force Org Slot [4 PL, -2CP, 65pts] +
Nob on Smasha Squig [4 PL, -2CP, 65pts]: 2. BeastGob (Aura) (Beast Snagga), Big Choppa, Headwoppa's Killchoppa, Slugga, Smasha Squig Jaws, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]
+ HQ [5 PL, -2CP, 105pts] +
Warboss [5 PL, -2CP, 105pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Attack Squig [5pts], Da Killa Klaw, Kombi-skorcha, Power Klaw [10pts], 2x Slugga, Stikkbombs, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]
GeneralDisarray wrote: Speed Mob advocates: How do you handle secondaries? ROD isn't something I want to be doing with bikes.
What secondaries would you take vs hard targets like custodes and knights?
well. You dont really take secondaries that requires you to perform an action usually. So no ROD or Banners.
Stranglehold is my go to usually because i always play pressure armies. Not sure against custodians whats great because i havent faced them in a long while.
Tomsug wrote: Hmm interesting shift… Because of various reasons, we' re on full squads of buggies now. Thay have Dakka weapons. And there is a More Dakka strategem that was for me totaly under the radar. Until now.
Shift Twin Big Shootas on 3x Scrapjet from 36 to 60 shots for 2CP is not a must, but can make a significant difference betwen killed or just damaged. Call it about 10 more hits, which is about 5 dead GEQs. That could be a 5VP on primaries…
On KBB it is 18 -> 27 shots = 3 more hits…. Not so great.
This should be for 1 CP definitely…
Problem is they are Ranged 36 one a relatively small board, the chances of needing that extra range or....minimal? but yeah, definitely something to keep in your back pocket if the absolute need arises. But lets put it this way.
36 Big shoota shots = 15 hits
60 Big shoota shots = 25 hits. so you are spot on when you say 10 more hits.
Against GEQ that is 6.66 more wounds and no AP so 4.44 dead GEQ. Against Marines its 1 extra dead Marine. So 4-5 GEQ or 1 Marine. Either way it works out to right around 20-30pts for 2CP. Or 10-15pts per CP. Would you spend 1CP to save 1-2 boyz a turn? No, then this isn't really worth it, its a waste unless you ABSOLUTELY need those last few wounds for whatever reason.
When the codex first dropped I ranked the Strats, this one would be in the lower of the tiers for sure.
Yeah, that is what I say.
This strategem moved from “useless trash” to “back pocket trick of emergency” because it gets “over the margin” - and the margin is the 5 GEQ squad dead - pretty common situation that one squad of such models hold the objective. It needs litle bit more to be “sure” but it is almost there.
1 dead marine is useless gain. But squad of 3-5 eldar/marine/etc. Infantry down could a gain of 5-10VP. And that can break the game. And that justify the 2CP..
GeneralDisarray wrote: Speed Mob advocates: How do you handle secondaries? ROD isn't something I want to be doing with bikes.
What secondaries would you take vs hard targets like custodes and knights?
Engage on all fronts and deploy teleport homers
I mean speedmob allows you to move advance and then deploy homers with your bikers since advance counts as a normal move for actions in your movement and shooting phase.
But honestly it’s limited if you don’t have an easy assassinate, abhor the witch or bring it down list.. knights can be doable with Titan slayer too. To the last is rough as your opponent can control your secondary points and get the good bits is good w bikers and still benefits from speed mob like deposit homers.
Reportedly the new chapter approved has more actions doable by bikers which would help tremendously.
I play Good Bitz a lot. They are ok, because there is no limit how many per turn can you do. So you are able to make 12+VP in last 3 turns and ignore it for firsts… Just save the bikers!
Second comes from Battlefield Supremacy of course - depends on the mission, but Engage are mostly not my selection. It is an Elite list with expensive units. No units to waste. I need them to kill on the right place. So I prefer Strangelhold mostly or Behind Enemy Lines.
Spetial mention to Behind - you can score up to 4VP per turn, so just 3 turns are enough to get 12. Teleporting Koptas from the sun can easily get there and work well. If you play on long deploy againts deathwing terminator castle or similar slow melee elite low number of units army, that is great. Or any armies that needs to march forward… and suddenly there are two squads of koptas and their marching castle need to choose, which way to go..
Third secondary is a problem. Half of the good opponents do not offer you a Target specific. And most of the mission specific is also unsuitable. So I have as secondary of last hope To The Last on my Squigbuggies, Scrapjets and one Koptas. Squigbuggies mostly survive. It is 5VP. The rest is pure gamble….
Tomsug wrote: Speed Mob army of renown cannot have any MSU..
Of course, army of renown wasn't mentioned in the post I responded to. For "Speed Mob" I intended any army that relies on Speedwaaagh rather than Waaagh.
Tomsug wrote: Speed Mob army of renown cannot have any MSU..
I play Good Bitz a lot. They are ok, because there is no limit how many per turn can you do. So you are able to make 12+VP in last 3 turns and ignore it for firsts… Just save the bikers!
Second comes from Battlefield Supremacy of course - depends on the mission, but Engage are mostly not my selection. It is an Elite list with expensive units. No units to waste. I need them to kill on the right place. So I prefer Strangelhold mostly or Behind Enemy Lines.
Spetial mention to Behind - you can score up to 4VP per turn, so just 3 turns are enough to get 12. Teleporting Koptas from the sun can easily get there and work well. If you play on long deploy againts deathwing terminator castle or similar slow melee elite low number of units army, that is great. Or any armies that needs to march forward… and suddenly there are two squads of koptas and their marching castle need to choose, which way to go..
Third secondary is a problem. Half of the good opponents do not offer you a Target specific. And most of the mission specific is also unsuitable. So I have as secondary of last hope To The Last on my Squigbuggies, Scrapjets and one Koptas. Squigbuggies mostly survive. It is 5VP. The rest is pure gamble….
Thanks dude very helpful. My first round this Saturday is against leviathan good stuff. He's got 4 characters (3 of which are hive tyrants) all of whom are psychic so two of my secondaries are safe as assassinate and abhor the witch. I'm pretty torn as to the 3 secondary but your point about having a low unit count army disencourages taking engage even though the speed mob is super fast.
Good bits looks to be a sleeper but the first three missions only have two in the centre...
Good bitz have one more important aspect - one objective = 3VP per turn so if you turn the table 90 degrees you are prety safe 3x5=15VP or something.
Speed Mob army is pretty fragile. You need to keep the head down and creating local concentrations of the power. Be forced to send some unit in 4th quater can be a serious complication…. And waste of the unit. Speed Mob is still the army of “kill them all and count the VPs on the end” gameplan.
From his comments in FB Ork group, you can see the answers for some questions discussed here before:
- He houserule the Attak out o da Sun - no drop and fade in the same turn. One or another!!! Respect and support for this! - secondaries - he plays mision&target specific + good bitz + strangelhold of course, but!! He has a valid gameplan for To The Last in every game! He has 1 full squad of Squigbuggies sitting in the back and 2 squads of koptas (5 koptas). One squad dissappear to the sun and second move after shooting via ES strategem.
Mission 12 vs. Custodes - TTL, Strangelhold, Bitz
Mission 13 vs. TS - TTL, Data Intercept, Abhorn
Mission 33 vs. Drukhari/Craftword - TTL, Priority Target, Strangelhold
- pretty big squads of bikers..
- he sees the ES shoot and fade strategem too good to be sacrificed for the Blood Axe CPs refund.
- no Boomboyz because Boomboyz Freebootas are not FB and do not trigger the +1 and Boomboyz ES are not ES so you can' t shoot and fade
I finished 2-3 playing my bike heavy speed mob. It was great fun and I learned a lot.
Game 1: leviathan good stuff. I won in a super close game. The fact he gave up 12 for abhor and bring it down was handy. Grind was only ok.
Game 2: was against triple lord of skulls. It was my first time playing them and The table was pretty sparse so once he went first and buffed the 3 LoS I was screwed. In hindsight I should have just paid the 3 CP to hide the two wazbomms. Behind enemy lines and deploy teleport homer combo was actually really good. If I'd gone first I would probably have won and if I'd reserved the planes it could have been anyone's game.
Game 3: Thicc city against the eventual winner of the event. The only game where I went first in the tournament and ironically the only game where I wanted to go second. It was my first time playing 9th ed drukhari and while I got schooled (and made some mistakes) I genuinely think speed mob might have some play into them.
Game 4: Astra miliitarum, lamden lions. I won comfortably. His lambden lions extra ap was wasted on my 5++ advancing army. First time I've scored 100 in a game. Get the good Bitz is great on sweep and clear
Game 5: death guard. I lost but predominantly because I screwed up my objective repositioning for priority targets. You can easily get 30 vps with one squad of bikes usong the mission secondary combined with get the good Bitz if you correctly move the objective that originally starts just out from the "top" of your triangular deployment.
Overall the army was super enjoyable and with practise it can definitely be competitive. Any questions welcome.
Also does anyone know any 40k players in Lima Peru? I'm moving there next week.
Was able to get into a smaller 14 player FLGS Tournament. Long Story short, Orkz won. I played 3 non-competitive lists with the alphork strike list. The hardest one I had was against a fellow Ork player who brought a lot of buggies to the table, deployment was short table edges which meant he had a lot more room to hide in, but it also meant that most of his stuff was out of range or LOS turn 1. Game finally ended at the end of my part of Turn 3 after I finally tagged his last squadron of buggies which meant he had no chance of doing anything to stop me scoring every objective for the next 2 turns.
I'm officially at the point where If a GT or RTT is happening close enough to me in New England I want to go just to try this list out against really good players.
SemperMortis wrote: Was able to get into a smaller 14 player FLGS Tournament. Long Story short, Orkz won. I played 3 non-competitive lists with the alphork strike list. The hardest one I had was against a fellow Ork player who brought a lot of buggies to the table, deployment was short table edges which meant he had a lot more room to hide in, but it also meant that most of his stuff was out of range or LOS turn 1. Game finally ended at the end of my part of Turn 3 after I finally tagged his last squadron of buggies which meant he had no chance of doing anything to stop me scoring every objective for the next 2 turns.
I'm officially at the point where If a GT or RTT is happening close enough to me in New England I want to go just to try this list out against really good players.
I play a variation of the alphork life and have had great success against most armies. The match-up I really struggle with is Grey Knights, especially if I go second. I'm 0-2 in RTTs when I face them, partially because I have gone second both times. Their pre-game moves mean the can deploy conservatively and then move forward when they know they go first, to touch mid-board terrain and shoot me on their turn. Have you had success against the 5 dreadknight list and if so, what did you do?
Ive entered the second round of my league with an alpha strike ork list as well. I posted the list on page 74 at the very bottom.
Mine utilizes 30 kommandos, 30 stormboyz, 20 trukkboys, 10 beastsnagga boys in a kill rig, 9 squig hogs (for a total of 6 bomb squigs), 10 grots for backline holding. Warboss with da killa klaw and BBK, a nob on smasha squig (beastgob/kill choppa) and beastboss on squig with ard as nails and beasthide mantle.
I have yet to try the list so we will see how it goes.
Ill have to fight grey knights and sisters of battle. I cant wait to try it out.
Do you think if there is a viable 500pt build for goffs? Sadly my first 2k comp will be at the end of Feb, and I'm planning to try out my custodes there, and the only event until then is 500 points.
Been thinking about 2 lists.
List 1
Squigboss
Trukk boyz + Invuln Trukk
Deffkoptas
Mek for backfield obj
List 2
Warboss
Trukk boyz + Invuln Trukk
6 Squighog boyz
Stormboyz
Mek for backfield obj
For competitive events you need to keep in mind that people cram redemptors or death shroud terminators into their lists and you need some sort of solution for such things.
Which means that list 1 is probably the best option.
IMO trukk boyz aren't good enough to warrant being such a big chunk of your army, I'd drop the trukk for some kommadoz.
Jidmah wrote: For competitive events you need to keep in mind that people cram redemptors or death shroud terminators into their lists and you need some sort of solution for such things.
Which means that list 1 is probably the best option.
IMO trukk boyz aren't good enough to warrant being such a big chunk of your army, I'd drop the trukk for some kommadoz.
I did a small 10 person tourney and ended up going 1-2 with a kind of janky ork pressure list due to not enough time painting. Basically 30 kommandos, some trukkboy mebanobs w/megaboss, a few koptas, some warbikers, and some fire support in the form of squigbuggies and a kannonwagon. Bosses were a squigboss with the beast snagga wlt/relic, bikerboss with bbk/killa klaw, a trukkboy megaboss, and the extra kunnin finkin kap mek.
For the alphork players I would start reading up on disciples of Belakor with slaneesh support and getting ready for them. Threw 5 meganobs at him and by the time all the debuffs were done I had -1 to hit and -2 attacks on most of my nobs. A lot of the smaller daemons had some nasty abilities that meant my units were typically bouncing off of hard targets all over the place, not able to retreat, or even not beong able to fight in one instance. They also apparently shut down rerolls from what I understand. Im sure theres a way for orks to beat it but with the models I had I didnt stand much of a chance. I managed to kill a lot of daemons but the sheer amount of debuffs meant all my key units had an awful time. Not to mention some major mistakes on attack order on my part. Both players were good guys but man did I hate facing their armies. No matter what you did you were facing penalties or having to lose your charge bonus because of slaneesh abilities.
One of the biggest weaknesses Im seeing with the alphork playstyle is that no matter what you do, against an elite army, something will interrupt and it will often absolutely wreck any of your units that charged it. The only thing I can think of is to have several units charge one target assuming some will die without being able to swing and a really tough one like meganobs to stomp your first target. This especially goes for squishier units like trukkbkyz, kommandos, and stormboyz. If a unit is interrupted even something as tame as some intercessors can really mess these units up.
That said trukkboy meganobs worked very well. I think my trukk missile contents from here will be 5 meganobs with saws, and a trukk with mega armored boss plus 10 trukkboys. Nice little package you can throw at an objective to clear it. Im just finding that for this kind of pressure yoy desperately need one or two big hitters to deal with a key target. Between the bbk/killklaw bikeboss and some meganobs with hit em harder and the trukkboss ws bonus, you should be able to cripple a couple of targets in a pinch, especially if you save 2 cp for the bikerboss to fight even if he dies.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I did a small 10 person tourney and ended up going 1-2 with a kind of janky ork pressure list due to not enough time painting. Basically 30 kommandos, some trukkboy mebanobs w/megaboss, a few koptas, some warbikers, and some fire support in the form of squigbuggies and a kannonwagon. Bosses were a squigboss with the beast snagga wlt/relic, bikerboss with bbk/killa klaw, a trukkboy megaboss, and the extra kunnin finkin kap mek.
For the alphork players I would start reading up on disciples of Belakor with slaneesh support and getting ready for them. Threw 5 meganobs at him and by the time all the debuffs were done I had -1 to hit and -2 attacks on most of my nobs. A lot of the smaller daemons had some nasty abilities that meant my units were typically bouncing off of hard targets all over the place, not able to retreat, or even not beong able to fight in one instance. They also apparently shut down rerolls from what I understand. Im sure theres a way for orks to beat it but with the models I had I didnt stand much of a chance. I managed to kill a lot of daemons but the sheer amount of debuffs meant all my key units had an awful time. Not to mention some major mistakes on attack order on my part. Both players were good guys but man did I hate facing their armies. No matter what you did you were facing penalties or having to lose your charge bonus because of slaneesh abilities.
One of the biggest weaknesses Im seeing with the alphork playstyle is that no matter what you do, against an elite army, something will interrupt and it will often absolutely wreck any of your units that charged it. The only thing I can think of is to have several units charge one target assuming some will die without being able to swing and a really tough one like meganobs to stomp your first target. This especially goes for squishier units like trukkbkyz, kommandos, and stormboyz. If a unit is interrupted even something as tame as some intercessors can really mess these units up.
That said trukkboy meganobs worked very well. I think my trukk missile contents from here will be 5 meganobs with saws, and a trukk with mega armored boss plus 10 trukkboys. Nice little package you can throw at an objective to clear it. Im just finding that for this kind of pressure yoy desperately need one or two big hitters to deal with a key target. Between the bbk/killklaw bikeboss and some meganobs with hit em harder and the trukkboss ws bonus, you should be able to cripple a couple of targets in a pinch, especially if you save 2 cp for the bikerboss to fight even if he dies.
Yeah, I think that's a keypoint for Alphork lists because more and more armies are getting very brutal counter hit units (i.e. new Custodes can have a Shield Host that all have always strike first) and instead of spreading the entirety of an enemy army, it might be better sometimes to cluster on certain key units because otherwise they'll be able to break out of the army wrap you set up because of them making a better trade on a certain flank.
Also, I was planning to use the Squiggoth on TTS later this week and I noticed that it wasn't updated to transport specialist mob units, does that mean it's currently illegal to transport guys like Boom Boyz Tankbustas on it?
Also, is the Krushin Armour worth it compared to the Cybork Body on a Mega Armoured Warboss? Not sure if the +1 to saving rolls is that relevant when it gives a 4+ invulnerable save as well compared to halving damage.
Krushin Armor provides more protection against small/medium powered weapon, while cybork body is best versus high AP multi-damage weapons.
Plus the MW on a charge, I guess it balances out.
You know what - SpeedMob AOR seems to me like an example and test. Test of the new “more simple” warhammer accesible to more people. Because it is really fkn simple.I had a feeling from GW survey the questions tend to give them an ammuniton to make the game more simple.
I mean i would understand it if one cant soup factions for what ever reason, but being unable to mix klans sounds stupid. If others can still soup but we cant mix sub clans thats silly.
But fine, it doesnt really impact me a lot. It just makes some klans completely redundant.
At least right now some people do run small detatchments of blood axes for relics and such, or death skulls for obsec bodies. But if that becomes a reality i dont see that happening as often.
Soup in general causes you to lose detachment rules like miracles, doctrines, contagions and so on. There is a heavy downside to souping for every updated codex, which eventually will be all of them.
Unless you are Necrons or Space Marines, currently there is no real downside for mixing clans, cabals, bortherhoods or similar.
On the other side, this official article is definitely a promoting of soups. So it seems, this rumour is either just a rumour, or little bit more complicated….
Weird question here, but when you have to measure how many points of orks you have total, how do you do that? Do you take the cheapest option you could have or the most expensive?
Like if you had 3 deff dreads. do you count them with klaws or something more expensive?
Like if you have magnetized some of your miniatures.
This type of rules changes are generally meant for edition changes not random chapter approved that mostly point updates and new missions. They also sometimes test any major rules changes with the unofficial rules in chapter approved. So that might be a case.
Overall I don’t think that Rumor is true.
The speedmob AoR is pretty much standard evilsun/freebooter right now…
The speedwaaagh is pretty standard freebooter
And goff pressure is mostly just goff
So limiting clans per army will basically just remove anyone from playing outside the box and put more focus on nerfing the few decent clans.
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Beardedragon wrote: Weird question here, but when you have to measure how many points of orks you have total, how do you do that? Do you take the cheapest option you could have or the most expensive?
Like if you had 3 deff dreads. do you count them with klaws or something more expensive?
Like if you have magnetized some of your miniatures.
its not an exact science I just click units on battle scribe until I list all my models if a model is magnetized I choose the option I play the most or the most expensive option if all options are used. Regarding weapons options if I take the time to do it it’s the same most used option or most expensive of all the used options.
Jidmah wrote: Rumor has it that you will soon no longer be able to mix sub-factions in one army.
Thoughts on this? I don't think the impact on orks will be huge, especially since it hits our armies to beat harder than us.
I sometimes mix up Freebooterz and Goffs as I don't really love one dimensional armies. If I have to go full Freebooterz I might just bring a couple of Big Krumpaz units if I want some choppy stuff, which is what I'm usually already fielding anyway. I could actually see something like that as a good thing, mixing up klans and their equivalents is kinda gamey.
The possibility of losing slots is much more worrying instead: being able to field just 2 HS/Elites instead of 4 (by taking a patrol and an outrider which is what I always do) means that some of the average units I like to field anyway are going to be shelved for good. That being said I could just cut a couple of HS and replace them with a 2nd flyer or a 3rd HQ, for an even more competitive list than what I currently like to play. Or I'd just lose 3CPs and replace the patrol for a spearhead without changing anything. No big deal.
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Beardedragon wrote: Weird question here, but when you have to measure how many points of orks you have total, how do you do that? Do you take the cheapest option you could have or the most expensive?
Like if you had 3 deff dreads. do you count them with klaws or something more expensive?
Like if you have magnetized some of your miniatures.
I count the points cost by considering what I typically use if I have magnetized the unit or have other ways to switch options. Most of the times yes, it's the cheapest loadout. Not a strict rule though. For something like a full magnetized flyer I'd count the full kitted Wazbom for example.
Beardedragon wrote: Weird question here, but when you have to measure how many points of orks you have total, how do you do that? Do you take the cheapest option you could have or the most expensive?
Like if you had 3 deff dreads. do you count them with klaws or something more expensive?
Like if you have magnetized some of your miniatures.
Hah not that weird I gave up on 40k side for that due to this. AOS it somewhat works but magnetization still screws things up(my ogres vary by about 1000 pts...).
I would aim for middle ground on what I use most of the time.
Beardedragon wrote: Weird question here, but when you have to measure how many points of orks you have total, how do you do that? Do you take the cheapest option you could have or the most expensive?
Like if you had 3 deff dreads. do you count them with klaws or something more expensive?
Like if you have magnetized some of your miniatures.
I just use basic configuration, it's too much work to count every big shoota and weapon option. At some point it doesn't matter anymore, I couldn't really tell you how many points I have - for some model like boyz or nobz, I couldn't even tell you the exact number of models I have.
Because i was interested in counting how much i had point wise. last time i tried was over half a year ago and i remember looking at my then two dakkajets which could easily be used as blitza/burna bommas and thought: yea these units have different costs..
I cant be arsed to do this
But now i wanna try it. ill do it soon. Im really curious how much i have.
Beardedragon wrote: Weird question here, but when you have to measure how many points of orks you have total, how do you do that? Do you take the cheapest option you could have or the most expensive?
Like if you had 3 deff dreads. do you count them with klaws or something more expensive?
Like if you have magnetized some of your miniatures.
Depend on the purpose.
If you want the stat for the signature here, count the most expensive option.
If you need to make a report for your wife, just naked bodies without anything.
Jidmah wrote:Rumor has it that you will soon no longer be able to mix sub-factions in one army.
Thoughts on this? I don't think the impact on orks will be huge, especially since it hits our armies to beat harder than us.
I will only be changing from Blood Axe/Deathskull to double Blood Axe. I lose ObSec on my kommandos and stormboys, but that probably won't have a big impact except in some edge cases.
Beardedragon wrote: Weird question here, but when you have to measure how many points of orks you have total, how do you do that? Do you take the cheapest option you could have or the most expensive?
Like if you had 3 deff dreads. do you count them with klaws or something more expensive?
Like if you have magnetized some of your miniatures.
Depend on the purpose. If you want the stat for the signature here, count the most expensive option. If you need to make a report for your wife, just naked bodies without anything.
I hope that is fake. Orcs are in a good spot.. that's just trying to make our codex worthless. Buffing random models wont make them see much use... They need fundamental stat or some rethink of their role, too much overlap means that they either replace the previous models or stay in the shelves.
Oof, that's a BIG jump for the Beast Boss on Squigosaur. Not sure if it warranted that big of a price bump.
The squigbuggy nerf seems a bit unnecessary with the balance update.
Scrapjets seem reasonable.
I knew Kommandos would get an increase, though I was hoping it wouldn't be by two points, but by 1. Not sure how much this would impact lists since they're still really good.
Glad that they're giving some loving to Meganobz and the wagon variants, though they still won't be able to compete against Kill Rigs I feel. Also, not sure if 15 point lootas will be competitive enough given -1D spam everywhere.
To be fair, i always thought mega Nobz should be base 30 points.
I remember saying that back when the new codex came out. They deserve to be 30 points. they are not in any way as good as others terminator variants.
beastboss does not deserve a 175 point cost. As good as he is to fight thats all he does. Thats all many of our characters do really. no abilities for him to use on his allies or enemies, no shooting attack of worth. No real buffing. All he does is hit things hard.
I honestly don’t really know what they’re trying to do with nerfing kommandos. Nothing in the elite slot really competes with them, we’re still not going to take boyz, and honestly I’m fine dropping other things to take more of em. Last time I checked too orks were at a pretty healthy win rate. I guess GW just can’t handle orks being good ever.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also think that the kannonwagon will never be good. Ever.
It’s sort of just a leman russ that shoots half as much, and way worse shots.
100% the knee-jerk nerf we got earlier was just that, a knee-jerk one, and the CA nerfs were already in the works and of course GW doesnt address anything that quickly in their initial releases.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I honestly don’t really know what they’re trying to do with nerfing kommandos. Nothing in the elite slot really competes with them, we’re still not going to take boyz, and honestly I’m fine dropping other things to take more of em. Last time I checked too orks were at a pretty healthy win rate. I guess GW just can’t handle orks being good ever.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also think that the kannonwagon will never be good. Ever. It’s sort of just a leman russ that shoots half as much, and way worse shots.
Im not sure i fully agree.
The kommandos with their +1 to wound knocks Nobz even with big choppas out the park.
I would say kommandos are worth 11 points, but once they become 12 it starts being a bit much. Though i think even at 12 points i could probably find room for them in my goff pressure army still. Because they really are all rounders. even a toughness 8 vehicle will be wounded on a +4 when throwing down the distraction grot if you use goff and charged to have str 5. There isnt anything a Goff kommando isnt a threat towards.
One thing that always annoyed me is how we only have movement 5 when we should have totally had movement 6 like most others. Only our kommandos gets this.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I honestly don’t really know what they’re trying to do with nerfing kommandos. Nothing in the elite slot really competes with them, we’re still not going to take boyz, and honestly I’m fine dropping other things to take more of em. Last time I checked too orks were at a pretty healthy win rate. I guess GW just can’t handle orks being good ever.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I also think that the kannonwagon will never be good. Ever.
It’s sort of just a leman russ that shoots half as much, and way worse shots.
Im not sure i fully agree.
The kommandos with their +1 to wound knocks Nobz even with big choppas out the park.
I would say kommandos are worth 11 points, but once they become 12 it starts being a bit much. Though i think even at 12 points i could probably find room for them in my goff pressure army still. Because they really are all rounders. even a toughness 8 vehicle will be wounded on a +4 when throwing down the distraction grot if you use goff and charged to have str 5. There isnt anything a Goff kommando isnt a threat towards.
One thing that always annoyed me is how we only have movement 5 when we should have totally had movement 6 like most others. Only our kommandos gets this.
Nurglings.
Hit on a 3+ (assuming no Miasma), wound on a 2+, with a 5++/5+++ save on a W4 body.
It takes just over 16 attacks from Kommandos to kill a base of Nurglings, and considering they're only 22 points per model...
Any price increase is useless parametr without the context. Is it an ork army price increase, or is it an all armies price increase? Context, context is what matters.
But there was silence for couple of days. This is a good topic to discuss
I hope that is fake. Orcs are in a good spot.. that's just trying to make our codex worthless. Buffing random models wont make them see much use... They need fundamental stat or some rethink of their role, too much overlap means that they either replace the previous models or stay in the shelves.
The problem is chapter approved point adjustments are done 6+ months ago when orks were doing better…
It’s a knee jerk from orks winning still… the rumor point changes started back then…
The only thing that makes me think this is off is the fact they changed Mek guns points again? They literally made all the weapon options the same cost and now they are reverting back to the KMK being higher costed? If beastboss becomes 175… I’ll just take Mogrok… if hes raised in price too I’m back to warboss on bike… honestly I’m fairly sure orks will get hammered this chapter approved I’ve been hearing that rumor since orks started winning.. players don’t like it when orks have a 50%+ win rate… (we were at 55% since the codex came out)…
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CaptainO wrote: Anyone know if chapter approved will be in play for the LVO?
I hope that is fake. Orcs are in a good spot.. that's just trying to make our codex worthless. Buffing random models wont make them see much use... They need fundamental stat or some rethink of their role, too much overlap means that they either replace the previous models or stay in the shelves.
The problem is chapter approved point adjustments are done 6+ months ago when orks were doing better…
It’s a knee jerk from orks winning still… the rumor point changes started back then…
The only thing that makes me think this is off is the fact they changed Mek guns points again? They literally made all the weapon options the same cost and now they are reverting back to the KMK being higher costed? If beastboss becomes 175… I’ll just take Mogrok… if hes raised in price too I’m back to warboss on bike… honestly I’m fairly sure orks will get hammered this chapter approved I’ve been hearing that rumor since orks started winning.. players don’t like it when orks have a 50%+ win rate… (we were at 55% since the codex came out)…
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CaptainO wrote: Anyone know if chapter approved will be in play for the LVO?
It will not
Gsc and custodes is the cutoff
I don't know, i haven't been around long enough to see favourites. Being true, what's the point of playing other factions? Are only certain factions like drukari allowed to win? We need to fight that sentiment. The game is about having a nice time and enjoy the thrill of smashing your army against some one else. I don't understand where this idea comes from. Sure we are one of craziest armies but that's the fun of playing orcs. To do something out of the ordinary, to be completely whack...
I digress, and those are feels. If i see favouritism anywhere even for orcs i will try and fight it. That's my call.
But that's also a reason why updates should be more streamlined, 6 months is too long. Also if things change, not having adaptability is silly.I don't understand how you balance with out reviewing your changes? The game is pretty unstable.. and it's funny we are talking about orcs winning when drukkari have been doing that for what more then a year?
It’s the process of printing books it takes a while to format and send to printers receive shipments and then redistribute those books for a global release… it’s why many people want to see chapter approved style point changes and balance fixes go digital…
gungo wrote: It’s the process of printing books it takes a while to format and send to printers receive shipments and then redistribute those books for a global release… it’s why many people want to see chapter approved style point changes and balance fixes go digital…
Exactly.
It reminds me… Three million years? About average for post…
I've signed up last minute for the LVO with my speed mob list. Anyone use player placed terrain with orks before (or even better with a bike heavy speed mob)?
I'm dubious about this. The buggies have already been nerfed hard, and is the Squigboss even being used often enough to warrant any kind of nerf?
The only thing I think is legit from this list is the kommandos going from 10 to 12. I think they're our only "problematic" unit nowadays. Sure buggies can be obnoxious if you're fielding 8+ of them, but at that point you're looking at suboptimal buggies and limiting the rest of what your list can do. They work best in conjunction with kommandos, stormboys, bikers, etc.
Or it's all true and in 6 months they'll just say orks can only take 1 vehicle per army. Who knows.
I'm dubious about this. The buggies have already been nerfed hard, and is the Squigboss even being used often enough to warrant any kind of nerf?
The only thing I think is legit from this list is the kommandos going from 10 to 12. I think they're our only "problematic" unit nowadays. Sure buggies can be obnoxious if you're fielding 8+ of them, but at that point you're looking at suboptimal buggies and limiting the rest of what your list can do. They work best in conjunction with kommandos, stormboys, bikers, etc.
Or it's all true and in 6 months they'll just say orks can only take 1 vehicle per army. Who knows.
With how much GW listens to their competitive player consultants and how those players never seem to have liked using/facing Orks very much in the competitive meta, it wouldn't be surprising that they would be satisfied with Orks with being nerfed into the ground so they don't have to worry about our skew lists.
Chapter approved point changes have been done for a while.. heck during the emergency ork nerf they put out the admech and drukari chapter approved point changes early And that was 2 months ago….
We have heard about point nerfs to buggies and planes for a long time.. chapter approved was delayed release due to shipping issues. It should have been released in nov/December.
You are all looking at this nerf as of todays orks competitive placing.. these nerfs were done when everyone was still crying about ork buggies killrigs kommandos and beastboss on squig being very good units. Today the meta shifted to antitank and anti monster due to dreadkniggts and tyranid monster mash and durable drukari… so buggies are no longer as much a skew…. The good news is bikers are still okay so if chapter approved gives more biker secondaries that list is decent and it’s fun.
I'm dubious about this. The buggies have already been nerfed hard, and is the Squigboss even being used often enough to warrant any kind of nerf?
The only thing I think is legit from this list is the kommandos going from 10 to 12. I think they're our only "problematic" unit nowadays. Sure buggies can be obnoxious if you're fielding 8+ of them, but at that point you're looking at suboptimal buggies and limiting the rest of what your list can do. They work best in conjunction with kommandos, stormboys, bikers, etc.
Or it's all true and in 6 months they'll just say orks can only take 1 vehicle per army. Who knows.
With how much GW listens to their competitive player consultants and how those players never seem to have liked using/facing Orks very much in the competitive meta, it wouldn't be surprising that they would be satisfied with Orks with being nerfed into the ground so they don't have to worry about our skew lists.
This ^
There is a clear player base bias on orks… we are the fun crazy army not the cool tactical army… even when they talk about competitive ork list like buggy spam they claim it’s just spamming cheap units and rushing the opponent and requires very little thought… when orks won socal decisively in the final there was a massive freak out about it. We are still to this day dealing with the fallback from that tournament. (To be fair the aircraft blocking assault was janky bull crap)
I'm dubious about this. The buggies have already been nerfed hard, and is the Squigboss even being used often enough to warrant any kind of nerf?
The only thing I think is legit from this list is the kommandos going from 10 to 12. I think they're our only "problematic" unit nowadays. Sure buggies can be obnoxious if you're fielding 8+ of them, but at that point you're looking at suboptimal buggies and limiting the rest of what your list can do. They work best in conjunction with kommandos, stormboys, bikers, etc.
Or it's all true and in 6 months they'll just say orks can only take 1 vehicle per army. Who knows.
You use a logic reacting now on real world data. Non of this plays a significant role in GW fairy tale world. Neither real world data, neither reacting now nor logic.
I wish I lived in GW fairytale land, it sounds like a great time
I still don't think the Squigboss was ever worthy of a nerf in the first place. Wartrike, Bikerboss, Megaboss and even the plain old regular Boss are all more viable and more used as far as I can tell.
Afrodactyl wrote: I wish I lived in GW fairytale land, it sounds like a great time
I still don't think the Squigboss was ever worthy of a nerf in the first place. Wartrike, Bikerboss, Megaboss and even the plain old regular Boss are all more viable and more used as far as I can tell.
I think, like mentioned previously, it was a kneejerk reaction to how people flipped out about the Squigosaur's durability, until people realized it was just the tip of the iceberg for how GW would overcorrect with the sudden introduction of invuln ignoring and double digit damage weaponry. Also, as the NPC faction, we can't have nice things :(
If the rumour is true, than following is interesting:
- warbikers and deffkoptas hold - Speedmob deffkopta biker spam is strong now. Would be for the next few months, unless changes in number of units in detachement change something
- Kannonwagons price drop. They are already cool. 2D6 shot weapon + 1CP reroll gives you a lot of shots hitting on 4+ 8-3 3 with the speedwaagh. With 60” range and 12” move, so there is nowehere to hide. Plus 3x Big Shoota for free. Give them a WAGON keyword for the speedmob 5++ and price drop for 20!p and they would be top.
- killa kans - they were already in some top lists. Give them a price drop and Skorcha autohit 12” 5-1 1 + klaws 8-3 3 with support of waaaagh banner would be very good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: - Kannonwagons + mek guns price drop can be a “nice” core for the castle lists. Use a Killakans as Terminators for TTL and play the passive game. That could be a very strong build.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: What’s funny is we don’t get the bonus npc factions used to get as we can’t even flood the board with bodies.
Yup, now we're much lower model count than before and still pretty fragile as far as army type goes. With the new Tau leaks they seem very, very strong on the anti-vehicle front, so I think the game is going to become even more rock, paper, scissors like with the match up for tournaments. GSC seem like the main counter to Tau, and Tau seem like a counter to knights, hyper elite armies like Custodes, and SpeedWAAAAGH!'s.
Agreed. Having less "all wounds in one basket" vehicle models seems to be the way to go, especially since most of the units you mentioned also go well with the alphork strike archetype. I think SpeedWAAAGH! buggy lists would still have been more viable I feel if the balance update for the unit restrictions wasn't implemented, since you'd separate the units so they couldn't overlap with damage, but with our current 1 per buggy type cap, I don't see how they're going to survive with all the long range high flat damage weaponry making their way to us, especially with the change to markerlights making +1 to hit much more accessible.
If the rumoured points changes do take place, I think I can just drop my kommandos down to two units of five rather than two units of ten and then have points to play around with. Or ditch my trukk boys and just add a kannonwagon and more koptas or something.
I certainly like the idea of a foot horde of MANz and Kanz
COME AT ME BRAH!!
*slowly heaves one leg forward* JUST YOU *heaves another very slowly* WAIT UNTIL *starts panting a bit* GET THERE!!
Hits like a wrecking ball when it gets there.
On turn five
Old school Ork players would call this da DEFFWING list. I remember back in 5th ed, you could do this. Have 2 Mega Armoured Warbosses (or one of them as Ghazzy) to make the mandatory troops choice Meganobz, and then take the rest of the Meganobz to max out the elites slots. You'd throw them into battlewagons/trukks and rush in. If you wanted to make them feel even more elite, you could cut some guys and have Mad Dok Grotsnik to give every Meganob a 5+ invuln from Cybork Body. It'd be hell expensive and they were a lot squishier back then to stuff like power fists that would cause instant death, but if you managed to swing with any of them, they would absolutely steamroll most things they made into combat with.
Might have to try this kind of army out again if those points drop come to pass.
I used to abuse that move. 2 squads of MANz in a trukk, rocket it up both sides of the board. They either dedicate proper anti-tank weaponry to get rid of like 175pts of stuff, or get their cans opened. I miss the days of 24" trukk movement....
Course my friend will never let me forget the time i sent them after his Devastator squad sitting at the top of one of those tall/thin GW ruins. I charge him from below, only the 1 lascannon guy can see because hes standing on the hole the ladder went to. Rolls a 6, wounds, dead, guess how many inches i failed that charge by.....because of course it wounds from the front back then lol
Dendarien wrote: My problem with MANz now isn't speed - that's solved by making them trukk boyz.
My problem is just how bad their damage output is without using the hit em harder strat.
Yeah, and the issue of hitting on 4's without Warboss/WAAAGH! banner support makes them also rather swingy with how much actually connects. Hit Em Harder really should have been a built into Meganobz on their datasheet in someway (maybe if it's just on the charge) rather than a very pricy 2CP, since then it disincentivizes you from taking multiple. It does feel that we've mostly missed out on the damage gravy train that some of the other codices that are coming out seem to have in spades.
Dendarien wrote: My problem with MANz now isn't speed - that's solved by making them trukk boyz.
My problem is just how bad their damage output is without using the hit em harder strat.
Yeah, and the issue of hitting on 4's without Warboss/WAAAGH! banner support makes them also rather swingy with how much actually connects. Hit Em Harder really should have been a built into Meganobz on their datasheet in someway (maybe if it's just on the charge) rather than a very pricy 2CP, since then it disincentivizes you from taking multiple. It does feel that we've mostly missed out on the damage gravy train that some of the other codices that are coming out seem to have in spades.
Or you can run them as turn 2-3 melee threats instead of making them alpha strike threat with the Trukk Boyz keyword. This way they'd keep some of their punch by either being Goffs or Big Krumpaz. And the +1 to hit from a warboss if he's nearby them.
Tomsug wrote: If the rumour is true, than following is interesting:
- warbikers and deffkoptas hold - Speedmob deffkopta biker spam is strong now. Would be for the next few months, unless changes in number of units in detachement change something
- Kannonwagons price drop. They are already cool. 2D6 shot weapon + 1CP reroll gives you a lot of shots hitting on 4+ 8-3 3 with the speedwaagh. With 60” range and 12” move, so there is nowehere to hide. Plus 3x Big Shoota for free. Give them a WAGON keyword for the speedmob 5++ and price drop for 20!p and they would be top.
- killa kans - they were already in some top lists. Give them a price drop and Skorcha autohit 12” 5-1 1 + klaws 8-3 3 with support of waaaagh banner would be very good.
Automatically Appended Next Post: - Kannonwagons + mek guns price drop can be a “nice” core for the castle lists. Use a Killakans as Terminators for TTL and play the passive game. That could be a very strong build.
I'm fairly alone in this but honestly I need to say it. Warbikers AREN'T THAT GOOD. Sorry, they just aren't. Incredibly short range with dakka means you have to get within 9' of your target to really hit them hard. A unit of 3 puts out 10 S5 no AP hits a turn. This is good but not great, and definitely not in a meta where a lot of units get +1 to armor or -1 to hit. Worse, when they inevitably end up in CC because you got charged or you needed to tag something, they are literally just boyz on a bike and as of right now, boyz aren't very good, and a 25pt boy is REALLY not good.
DeffKoptas are great and the only thing I want for them is to become Core, otherwise they are fine.
Kannon Wagon...Who flippin cares? As a reminder, we are talking about COMPETITIVE 40k in this thread so please keep that in mind. But 20pts off a sub par unit that is likely 50pts over priced isn't going to do much for you. A kanonwagon averages 7 shots a turn against 95+% of the units you are going to run into, occasionally you might run into a 11 unit model but its incredibly rare. So it gets 3.5 hits a turn that can't be buffed because the gunners already increased it to +1 to hit. Against a Marine unit that is 2.9 wounds and just shy of 2 Dead Marines a turn. ....no offense but 150pts for a unit that manages 2 dead Marines a turn isn't exactly what I would call competitive. "Ohh but the 3 free big shootas!" again...who cares, you want this thing at max range to keep it relatively safe, so at best its 9 shots, 3 hits and against Marines thats 2 wounds and 0.66dmg. Yet again, not impressive.
You could drop this thing down to 100pts and it would only be competitive because it would be incredibly durable (Unless you are playing against Tau) for its points.
Killakanz: They aren't competitive, they weren't before and they still aren't now. A unit of 3 now runs you 105pts, or 120 with skorchas and LMAO 150 with Rokkitz (someone at GW still has PTSD from Ork Rokkitz). With Skorcha's they could be used as a teleporta strike unit, but that would be better done by a few other units, Meganobz for instance. They are still very fragile for their points cost, not because T, W or Save, but because LD6. So if you lose 2 you have a pretty good chance of failing morale which means you don't really want to play them in units bigger than MSU which dilutes the value of the Teleporta strike. And if you walk them up the board...they won't get there. yeah they might appear sporadically in a top list, but usually they don't do much and they were just a "meh" unit at best. They aren't heavy lifters like Kommandos used to be.
You are all looking at this nerf as of todays orks competitive placing.. these nerfs were done when everyone was still crying about ork buggies killrigs kommandos and beastboss on squig being very good units. Today the meta shifted to antitank and anti monster due to dreadkniggts and tyranid monster mash and durable drukari… so buggies are no longer as much a skew…. The good news is bikers are still okay so if chapter approved gives more biker secondaries that list is decent and it’s fun.
There is a clear player base bias on orks… we are the fun crazy army not the cool tactical army… even when they talk about competitive ork list like buggy spam they claim it’s just spamming cheap units and rushing the opponent and requires very little thought… when orks won socal decisively in the final there was a massive freak out about it. We are still to this day dealing with the fallback from that tournament. (To be fair the aircraft blocking assault was janky bull crap)
I have yet to see Killrigs deliver on their promised OP(ness) nor has the beastboss. In fact, in competitive gaming I don't really see them at all. I see a lot more units of 5 kommandos hiding in cover capping an objective than I do units like I run in mobz of 10 storming the enemies front lines turn 1.
I do agree there is a competitive player bias against Orkz. We are the lunatic army, we are supposed to never win but be fun to play against on the real players road to victory. We won 1 Major event with a competitive list that relies on being really shooty turn 1 and turn 2 and then basically running out of steam and that has been used as justification to Immediately nerf Ork buggies and planes in general. Dark Eldar and Ad-Mech were dominating the meta for 6+ months, winning almost every event and they got minor nerfs and in the case of DE a lot of heavy buffs. Orkz win 1 event decisively against the worst match up imaginable for the player and suddenly we are public enemy #1 and in need of immediate army correction.
With how much GW listens to their competitive player consultants and how those players never seem to have liked using/facing Orks very much in the competitive meta, it wouldn't be surprising that they would be satisfied with Orks with being nerfed into the ground so they don't have to worry about our skew lists.
Was Ork Horde armies unbeatable or OP? Nope, they were a skew infantry list, but competitive players and players in general hated that it basically invalidated their 25 Lascannon/plasma/melta units they were bringing. Hence in 9th Ork boyz are effectively useless and the things we used to buff them are all gone. GW and players hate it when Orkz go counter meta and yet GW keeps building Ork codex's that suck in anything except Counter-meta (9th codex is honestly the best one so far).
Jidmah wrote: For competitive events you need to keep in mind that people cram redemptors or death shroud terminators into their lists and you need some sort of solution for such things.
Which means that list 1 is probably the best option.
IMO trukk boyz aren't good enough to warrant being such a big chunk of your army, I'd drop the trukk for some kommadoz.
I have to agree with you Jidmah. I Only take Trukkboyz in my alphork strike because its the only other fast unit we have that is both a 1st turn threat and semi-useful. They aren't good in CC, they aren't durable, but they are astoundingly fast
Dendarien wrote: My problem with MANz now isn't speed - that's solved by making them trukk boyz.
My problem is just how bad their damage output is without using the hit em harder strat.
I've never really been a fan of Meganobz in general. They always seem to be Terminators -1 and always priced rather harshly. A terminator (which isn't competitive) is priced at 38pts its got 1 less T than Meganobz but they get an inbuilt 5++ invuln save which makes them more durable against Mutli-wound weapons like Plasma/melta but less durable vs small arms. and honestly, i'm more worried about the melta/plasma than I am boltguns. The terminators also have better ranged weapons and a host of special rules including free teleport strike.
The only competitive terminators right now aren't competitive because of their dmg potential though, they are competitive for their durability. Deathshrouds as Jidmah will attest to are an outlier in that they are incredibly durable AND if they get into CC its going to be a bad day for their opponent. So what do Meganobz bring to the table to compete against that? nothing. They are less durable, they don't have as many buffs, their wargear choices are kind of crap and anything they can do can be done by other units like Kommandos. The solution for me would be to increase a meganobz dmg output rather than buffing their durability. Orkz have always cared more about Krumpin then weathering a storm of enemy fire. Give meganobz +1 attack, give them +1dmg do something.
And finally, Kommandos.
Kommandos atm are +1pt over boyz, boyz are non-competitive crap that are at absolute best a Tax unit, but they aren't even a good tax unit because players routinely give up CP to not take them at all. So yeah, compared to one of the worst units in our codex Kommandos look OP at just 1ppm more. However, they aren't an OP unit in the game right now.
Kommandos only excel when in cover. If they aren't in cover they die in droves, if they aren't in cover they are just boyz in CC. They have an incredibly situational buff that makes them great and if they aren't in that situation they are crap. Hitting them with a 20% nerf is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. Ironically, if this "leak" is true, that means GW addressed one of our competitive units by making it 20% worse but failed to address the plethora of sub-optimal units which force us to take Kommandos over those units. Why the hell would I take a unit of Tankbustas when every other faction in the bloody game is getting D6+2 or D6+4 for dmg output, what did we get? D3 shots...but also -1 to hit if you move. Likewise, why would I take Burnaboyz who are still garbage and require a transport, why would I take painboyz when i'm not bringing any troops because GW nerfed them all? Why would I take a Mek ever? Why etc etc etc.
I would really like GW to stop nerfing every good unit we get that isn't even remotely as broken as units that have been around significantly longer. The damn chickenwalkers just got nerfed and are still one of the best units in the game, Drukhari got "nerfed" but didn't really LOL. My favorite was the Incubi going up in price but their transport going down by the exact same amount which meant they literally stayed the same.
I'm really hoping this is BS otherwise orkz are going to be in a bad place for awhile again.
Semper, what you say is more or less right, but miss the point.
1. Warbikers
One of the three valid and well working lists is a Speed Mob.
Warbikers are the only units, you can take in SpeedMob to do the actions. I don' t say they are great. I say, they will be common and well serving.
Because in Spead Mob they have 20” M, 5++, inbuilt -1 to hit and 3W. Which makes them really hard to be compared with the boyz.
But you are right, their CC is shity and Dakka too. But in squads of aprox. 5 they deal enough damage to kill 5-10 model squads of light infantry on the wings and play the game for points.
2. Kannonwagon
Kannonwagon was used times to times already before and my guess is, that it will be used again. The reason is the main gun in combination with +1 to hit and 12”M and 60” range. This mean, you will be always in range of something interesting.
If you make real game calculation, Kannonwagons have better ROI than Kustom Mega Kannons. Because:
1. KMK are slow and 36” = 50% time have no targets.
2. Any Mek Guns trigger SMG Spam PTSD and die T1 or T2. Really. In shooting army, they work more like a dedicated T1 target.
If Kannonwagons get WAGON keyword, they could be in SpeedMob and get
- free advance
- 5++
- fallback and shoot strategem
Which improves them a lot.
Btw. your calculation of their damage is not fair. Shooting with damage 3 weapon to W2 marines?
Do it like Kannonwagons are used:
Take 2 KW, 7 shots in average each, one of them burn 1CP to reroll number of shots = about 16 shots = 8hits = shooting on some T7 multiwound model = about 5 wounds, in Speedwaagh turn Ap-3 ends in some 5++ = about 3-4 penetrate x 3DMG = 9-12W down = Contemptor Dradnought down. Before he can shoot on you. And that is what counts.
3. Killakans - honestly I don't know why and how, but if you check Tactical Innovations, there were Killkans lists couple of times. And Mark Perry is their great fan right know (or was before Christmas). So don' t say they are not competitivy. Yes, they are crazy and they are rare. But they score on GTs.
Right, warbikes are ok, but only when in the AoR, otherwise they are mediocre. They are just really fast/tough boyz with ok guns.
Kannonwagon...yeah its crap. Go compare it to the new HH the tau get. Its worse in every single way possible. And Yeah no, a KMK is way better. For the same price I can take 3 KMK's with points left over, and I can position them to cover the entire board with relative ease. And I assure you, 3xD6 S8 -3AP D6dmg shots are significantly better than 2D6 shots, -2AP and 3dmg, especially durability wise since its spread over 2-3 units and are so damn cheap they aren't worth shooting with most things. As far as "50% of the time not having a target" ...The only time this edition that has happened was 2 games for me. And both times it was Turn 2-3 and it was because everything in range had died. Not a good argument Tom.
Also, re-roll # of shots isn't going to net you an extra 2 shots on average. But even if it did its 16 shots, 8 hits (barring any -1) 5.3 wounds, invuln kicks in and reduces it to 3.5, Duty eternal kicks in and reduces it to 7dmg on average. No idea where you got 9-12W from.
As far as Killakanz, for some reason I can no longer pull up lists on best coast pairing, but I'll bet you that you can't find more than 1 or 2 ork players using Killakanz in top 4 placings . And those 1-2 players are likely bringing MSU Kanz. Reducing them by 5pts doesn't fix the biggest problems with that unit which is speed and dmg output.
Are the regular foot warbosses good and what is best on them: PK or Big choppa ?
That is entirely dependent on what list type you are building.
Speedfreakz? You need Warboss on warbike or the ugly Deffkilla Wartrike. IF you are running a goff list featuring a lot of alphork strike units, you likely want Warbosses on foot or in mega armor. If you are running a beast heavy list you want the beastboss, either on squigosaur (barring this stupid nerf) or on foot in a Wagon. So the choice is up to you and your list construction.
Tomsung, how are you getting two kannon wagons shooting an average of 7 shots. Aren't you limited to only one of the 2d6 gun upgrades? Maybe I'm missing something...
CaptainO wrote: Tomsung, how are you getting two kannon wagons shooting an average of 7 shots. Aren't you limited to only one of the 2d6 gun upgrades? Maybe I'm missing something...
Kannonwagons are the FW version of a battlewagon that get the supakannon. Its s8, ap2 base, and flat 3 damage with a 60" range
Are the regular foot warbosses good and what is best on them: PK or Big choppa ?
Pretty much all warbosses see play, with KFF meks and Wartrikes making it into vehicle based lists like Freebooterz.
Beastboss on squig or on foot are both quite nasty with Big Killa Boss and Eadwhoppas Killchoppa relic.
Biker boss is still competitive as well, usually with Brutal But Kunnin and Da Killa Klaw.
I've used the standard footboss a lot and he's great if you make him a trukk boy (again using Brutal But Kunnin and Killa Klaw).
I personally really like a Deathskull mega armored warboss with Cybork Body and your pick of a WLT. He's a great late game piece for battling over objectives.
Are the regular foot warbosses good and what is best on them: PK or Big choppa ?
All kinds of warbosses are good. Deffkilla wartrike is good in a speedwaaagh list, useless otherwise.
Big mek in mega armour with KFF and dead shiny shoota is also nice. If Deathskulls works well also with tellyport blasta and Opportunist trait. Some, even competitive players, bring the standard big mek with KFF but I hate him since it's just an extremely overpriced slugga/choppa nob once its KFF has blown.
PK better than big choppa, both relics are good though. Warboss in mega armour is good with standard choppa, better give him a relic to make him tougher.
I've never really been a fan of Meganobz in general. They always seem to be Terminators -1 and always priced rather harshly. A terminator (which isn't competitive) is priced at 38pts its got 1 less T than Meganobz but they get an inbuilt 5++ invuln save which makes them more durable against Mutli-wound weapons like Plasma/melta but less durable vs small arms. and honestly, i'm more worried about the melta/plasma than I am boltguns.
I'm not sure about that. Most of the weapons that target them are AP-3 at most which means they keep a 5+ save, exactly the same that the Terminator built in invuln. If the opponent fires meltas or more powerful weapons against 35ppm infantries instead of more juicy vehicles good for me.
It's the possible 4++ and +1 save granted by the shields that makes termies more durable than meganobz but if they have it they also become one dimensional, typically only melee. And they're usually worse than meganobz in rolling the charges, which makes them unrealiable even with built in deep strike.
Since 8th I've always considered them as Terminators +1, or in line with shield/melee weapon terminators. Before that, the old AP system definitely favored termies as AP2 and AP1 weapons bypassed meganobz save completely and termies were more resilient overall even with just 1W.
SemperMortis wrote: Right, warbikes are ok, but only when in the AoR, otherwise they are mediocre. They are just really fast/tough boyz with ok guns.
Kannonwagon...yeah its crap. Go compare it to the new HH the tau get. Its worse in every single way possible. And Yeah no, a KMK is way better. For the same price I can take 3 KMK's with points left over, and I can position them to cover the entire board with relative ease. And I assure you, 3xD6 S8 -3AP D6dmg shots are significantly better than 2D6 shots, -2AP and 3dmg, especially durability wise since its spread over 2-3 units and are so damn cheap they aren't worth shooting with most things. As far as "50% of the time not having a target" ...The only time this edition that has happened was 2 games for me. And both times it was Turn 2-3 and it was because everything in range had died. Not a good argument Tom.
Also, re-roll # of shots isn't going to net you an extra 2 shots on average. But even if it did its 16 shots, 8 hits (barring any -1) 5.3 wounds, invuln kicks in and reduces it to 3.5, Duty eternal kicks in and reduces it to 7dmg on average. No idea where you got 9-12W from.
As far as Killakanz, for some reason I can no longer pull up lists on best coast pairing, but I'll bet you that you can't find more than 1 or 2 ork players using Killakanz in top 4 placings . And those 1-2 players are likely bringing MSU Kanz. Reducing them by 5pts doesn't fix the biggest problems with that unit which is speed and dmg output.
Bikers - yes, in Speedmob ok,out of the speedmob wet noodles good maybe in minimum squads for fast objective taking (better than stromboyz imho… stormboyz die much faster).
KW
1. We have different experience with Mek Gunz and Kannonwagons. I spent the autumn playing with both of them in a buggy list. That could be an important context. I don' t say I' m Competitive Judge of Absolute True and the reason I was doing this check was because I had brand new painted models and I was looking to find the way how to use them. But the results of my autumn artilery check was what I said - in really dense terrain like Tactical Tortoise use on TTS, Mek Guns suffer to shoot on the right target. Be careful! I don' t mean no target at all. I mean the target, you want to die. Something to shoot at is there pretty common. Typical situation in T1 and T2 is you need to get the antitank down. Mostly some kind of dreadnoughts or something. Two or three models opponent really down want to have shot down. So he hide them. When I had the Mek Gunz, it sucked. He had better movement and was able to keep this models out of the range or behind LOSblock.
On the other side Kannonwagons? One in each corner of my backfield, 12”M and about 3,5” hull. Get the target into the crossfire T1 mostly not a problem. And hold the objective with the other side of the hull too.
Few times I used them in combination with two wazbooms. Alphastrike was really massive and it really was like in 8th - who goes first delete the opponents important units. But go second was stupid, basicly, if aou spent 850p or something in units, that either fly or sit in the back, you don' t have a feets on ground to score.
Their damage output is not great. But good enough in combination with what I write above to be mentioned.
2. Keep in mind I speak about KW also in SpeedMob context and future. We' ll see…
Killrigs and Beastboss - in your previous post - yeah, everybody was screaming and the results doesn' t seem like that. My theory is, that Killrig model is so ugly, nobody wants it at home. But it is just the question of personal preference
Killrigs and Beastboss - in your previous post - yeah, everybody was screaming and the results doesn' t seem like that. My theory is, that Killrig model is so ugly, nobody wants it at home. But it is just the question of personal preference
Ugly, takes forever to paint it, utterly expensive, just recently released and only works in multiples.
Tomsug wrote: Everything works best in multiples. I have a golden Rule 3.
If paint something, do it in sets of 3. Mostly not max squads (spams will be nerfed) but “clever” 3.
The kill rig is a gorkanaut/morkanaut sized and priced (in currency) model though. Paying for 3 of them, assembling and painting them all is a massive investment of money and time. Unlike nauts it's still a 190 points model though, so it really needs redundancy to work at competitive levels.
It's a model that is supposed to be a centerpiece, not something that should follow the clever 3 rule.
Tomsug wrote: Everything works best in multiples. I have a golden Rule 3.
If paint something, do it in sets of 3. Mostly not max squads (spams will be nerfed) but “clever” 3.
The kill rig is a gorkanaut/morkanaut sized and priced (in currency) model though. Paying for 3 of them, assembling and painting them all is a massive investment of money and time. Unlike nauts it's still a 190 points model though, so it really needs redundancy to work at competitive levels.
It's a model that is supposed to be a centerpiece, not something that should follow the clever 3 rule.
Mehh, I have a plan to do 3 Nauts and it will be a great army! Knight armies also have more knights.
The only models do not fitting in rule of 3 are Stompa and Gargantuan Squigogh. They are simply too huge.
Nauts are small models. Smaller than regular Knights. Take a Landrider, stand it on the back and that it is. Every Demon is significantly bigger. And people play them in 3-4 per list…
And yes, it is significant ammount of work and money. Man have to dream in the right scale…
You can’t use kannon wagon in speedmob and it will never get the wagon keyword this edition… Gw does not touch datasheets in a forgeworld supplement once it’s been released unless it’s horribly overpowered…furthermore if they did touch the fw supplement I hope to hell they fix nobs on bikes to have the big red button(6” advance), +1 wd, and cloud of smoke(-1 to hit). This is the only unit keeping speedmob from being much stronger competitively (aka a decent assault unit)… I prefer core keyword too …… 3-5x goff nobs on bikes w pks or bc for 12x str8 ap-1 d2 atks with exploding 6s and 3+ to hit…ld7 and 12 wds at t5 at 4+, 5++ and -1 to hit.. for 105pts
Killrigs are extremely strong don’t know what competitive lists you guys are looking at but a vast majority of the goff pressure list consists of at least 2x killrigs filled with beastsnaggas. This list is doing better competitively then either speedmob (which has secondary mission scoring issues) or recent freebooter speedwaagh lists (which lack thier original alpha strike and leave squads of buggies more vulnerable) And 3x killrigs is not a common build.
Yeah, Killrigs are a core of one of the strongest ork builts. That is agreed. The point was, that it is not OP like some said. It does not bully every GT like the Freeboota buggy + jets list did. It is “just” normal strong built like at least 5-10 other faction has.
I' m very careful in saying “GW will never do this and that” since they changing the core rules out of blue…
But you' re right, giving Kannonwagon WAGON keyword is so simple, logic and usefull, Gw propably skip it…
Automatically Appended Next Post: CA22 preorder next weekend. Good.
Killrigs and Beastboss - in your previous post - yeah, everybody was screaming and the results doesn' t seem like that. My theory is, that Killrig model is so ugly, nobody wants it at home. But it is just the question of personal preference
Ugly, takes forever to paint it, utterly expensive, just recently released and only works in multiples.
I'm with you entirely Blackie, I have yet to buy/build one yet because its ugly as hell and massively expensive. I have $300 from tournament winnings waiting for Kommandos to get released, nerf or not I love the model and I want 30 of them. Killrigs...competitive but I just don't want to look at them. I might buy some eventually and do some conversion work on them. I'd love to make them into a parody of something.
Jidmah wrote: It's really just what a battlewagon should be...
Agreed again. The battlewagon looks wonderful but its rules are trash. It sucks in CC even with the deffrolla, its not that durable for its points, its shooting is god awful and at the end of the day its just a really big transport that we don't have a use for. if GW made it more durable and decent in CC it might have a place as a combat transport. ATM, my 3 wagonz are collecting dust.
gungo wrote: You can’t use kannon wagon in speedmob and it will never get the wagon keyword this edition… Gw does not touch datasheets in a forgeworld supplement once it’s been released unless it’s horribly overpowered…furthermore if they did touch the fw supplement I hope to hell they fix nobs on bikes to have the big red button(6” advance), +1 wd, and cloud of smoke(-1 to hit). This is the only unit keeping speedmob from being much stronger competitively (aka a decent assault unit)… I prefer core keyword too …… 3-5x goff nobs on bikes w pks or bc for 12x str8 ap-1 d2 atks with exploding 6s and 3+ to hit…ld7 and 12 wds at t5 at 4+, 5++ and -1 to hit.. for 105pts
Killrigs are extremely strong don’t know what competitive lists you guys are looking at but a vast majority of the goff pressure list consists of at least 2x killrigs filled with beastsnaggas. This list is doing better competitively then either speedmob (which has secondary mission scoring issues) or recent freebooter speedwaagh lists (which lack thier original alpha strike and leave squads of buggies more vulnerable) And 3x killrigs is not a common build.
I'm not seeing it gungo. I mentioned I lost the ability to check lists on BCP but in 40kstats i haven't been seeing many at all.
CaptainO wrote: Tomsung, how are you getting two kannon wagons shooting an average of 7 shots. Aren't you limited to only one of the 2d6 gun upgrades? Maybe I'm missing something...
Kannonwagons are the FW version of a battlewagon that get the supakannon. Its s8, ap2 base, and flat 3 damage with a 60" range
gungo wrote: You can’t use kannon wagon in speedmob and it will never get the wagon keyword this edition… Gw does not touch datasheets in a forgeworld supplement once it’s been released unless it’s horribly overpowered…furthermore if they did touch the fw supplement I hope to hell they fix nobs on bikes to have the big red button(6” advance), +1 wd, and cloud of smoke(-1 to hit). This is the only unit keeping speedmob from being much stronger competitively (aka a decent assault unit)… I prefer core keyword too …… 3-5x goff nobs on bikes w pks or bc for 12x str8 ap-1 d2 atks with exploding 6s and 3+ to hit…ld7 and 12 wds at t5 at 4+, 5++ and -1 to hit.. for 105pts
Killrigs are extremely strong don’t know what competitive lists you guys are looking at but a vast majority of the goff pressure list consists of at least 2x killrigs filled with beastsnaggas. This list is doing better competitively then either speedmob (which has secondary mission scoring issues) or recent freebooter speedwaagh lists (which lack thier original alpha strike and leave squads of buggies more vulnerable) And 3x killrigs is not a common build.
Kill rig builds are just lost under all these freeboota buggy/dakkajet builds
.
the other issues are it's a large difficult model to paint and with drukari dark lance D3+3 boats everywhere players just whince at the thought of all the damage going into it.
While these point changes are certainly a nerf, especially to melee orks, I think there are some interesting possibilities and twists that can be implemented.
1) MANZ with Hit Em Harder is a necessity to justify their inclusion. But this also means that you'll rarely want to bring more than one unit. To maximise CP I've found that two detachments hit a sweet spot. That other trukkboy specialist mob I feel is used by a 10 dual choppa Nobz. 60 S5 AP1 attacks turns to on average in 6.5 unsaved wounds on a redemptor, 8.8888 unsaved wounds on termies or vanguard vets, and absolutely shreds any hordes. Compared to 5 trukkMANZ with Hit Em Harder popped that does 10-12 wounds to a redemptor, 5-6 dead termies, 4 dead VV, and is worse against hordes. Costwise that's 180 points to the Nobz vs. 150 points with new MANz, so a good alternative if you are trying to use both offensively the same turn. I tend to not rely much on the durability of either unit, everything is so lethal that I expect even the MANZ to be dead the turn after it charges.
2) Despite what some people have said I think Killa Kanz with skorchas are deadly if used right. They are better than any other unit in the telly porta because they are deadly, slow, and can have ramming speed applied to them. For 160 points you get 4d6 S5 AP1 flamer shots, 20 WS4+ S8 AP3 3D attacks, essentially cheaper flamer meganobz. Again I expect them to die next turn, but if you DS them on the flanks there is a decent chance 1 or 2 will survive as the opponent has to bring their big firepower down the middle on the Kill Rigs / Hunta Rigs.
3) Speaking of Hunta Rigs, I am now hot on the beastboss on foot, I've always had trouble getting the beastboss on squig where he needed to be, thankfully with a 30 point increase I now have a reason not to bring him. The Beastboss's main weapon is better, he still hits on 2s due to his aura, and he can sit in a hunta rig with the lads. I am bringing 1 Kill Rig and 1 Hunta Rig, because that advance and charge on at least 1 of them for the character key word is too enticing.
the fact MANZ are dead the next turn is the reason they definitely dont deserve to cost anything more than 30 ppm standard. Its the cost they should have always had.
Other terminators arent expected to die when they arrive. Ours are.
its kind of annoying that hit em harder cost 2CP now, its definitely an unecessary nerf that might have something to do with why they are taken less now than before. Its too CP taxing to deal their maximum damage.
But if they cost 30 ppm in the future it might help them out a bit.
I dont hope the boss on squig will get a point increase, because he really dont do anything except hit things hard. Unlike other characters in the game he doesnt really do any buffing or throws out anything interesting in the command phase. just the lazy +1 to hit basically everyone and their grandmother already gives. He also doesnt have a shooting weapon even worth mentioning, so hes all melee and thats that.
I dont think Mozrog should be in that price range either. Not unless he could actually buff snakebites which he doesnt properly. And snakebites is already rather mediocre.
Other terminators arent expected to die when they arrive. Ours are.
I disagree with that. Regular termies aren't really more durable than meganobz. 5++ means nothing unless being hit by AP-4 weapons and meganobz shouldn't be targeted by such weapons. Against anything else they'd roll 5+ or 4+ saves, exactly like SM ones. Meganobz should simply have redundancy. If they draw away fire from the buggies, koptas, bikes, planes of other similar stuff good, that's how an army is supposed to work.
Regular terminators also don't have re-rolls on the charges which might leave them exposed more easily. Built in deepstrike but also no fast vehicles to be delivered, and it's much easier to screen against deepstrikers and force them to appear in a not very juicy spot than blocking movement from a very fast transport. I also play SW and my termies are much worse compared to meganobz, even with built in +1 to hit in melee on top of other marines buffs.
There isn't a significant difference from 35ppm to 30ppm, it's 25 points for a 5 man squad. I'll take it but I was playing meganobz quite frequently anyway.
2) Despite what some people have said I think Killa Kanz with skorchas are deadly if used right. They are better than any other unit in the telly porta because they are deadly, slow, and can have ramming speed applied to them. For 160 points you get 4d6 S5 AP1 flamer shots, 20 WS4+ S8 AP3 3D attacks, essentially cheaper flamer meganobz. Again I expect them to die next turn, but if you DS them on the flanks there is a decent chance 1 or 2 will survive as the opponent has to bring their big firepower down the middle on the Kill Rigs / Hunta Rigs.
Killa Kanz are IMHO a legit unit in 3 man squads. I play them sometimes and I found that all three loadouts can be justified. Skorchas might look the best option but they need deepstrike (so 2CP) to do something in the shooting phase, while rokkits are good but a bit expensive. Big shootas aren't good but cheap, with long range and with AP-1 for a couple of turns they're not really that bad compared to skorchas.
You mean bare naked datasheet? Or what you face regularly on the table? That is very different, because what you face is usualy something like 2+/4++ +1 to save 5+++ and 15 pushups as penalty for the attacker for every killed model. The point of your discussion is maybe in the ork (in)ability to boost MANs.
Tomsug wrote: Maybe, you should define “regular termie” first.
You mean bare naked datasheet? Or what you face regularly on the table? That is very different, because what you face is usualy something like 2+/4++ +1 to save 5+++ and 15 pushups as penalty for the attacker for every killed model. The point of your discussion is maybe in the ork (in)ability to boost MANs.
I mean standard ones, like terminators from the SM codex, SM supplements and Chaos Space Marines codex (although this one is pretty old). Those who cost 35ish points per model or less.
Deathshroud aren't regular termies for example, at 50ppm they cost as much as light vehicles like rokkit killa kanz or deffkoptas. Psyker ones aren't regular termies either. How many SM terminators do we see these days? I mean in SM or Chaos Space Marines codex armies. Definitely less than meganobz. The only termies/equivalents we really see more than meganobz are a few bespoke units, with tons of faction related buffs on top of the typical statelines and additional rules, they're also quite more expensive that other termies and their counterparts from other factions.
Since Meganobz works without layers of buffs they are appropriate at 30-35ppm. If you want them to be in line with the best terminator equivalents in the game they'd also need a significant price hike. Compared to all the other termies that don't rely on multiple powerful stuff they do pretty good. SW ones for example have tons of layers of rules, including a quite powerful +1 to hit in melee, but we really never see them though even in casual games, and for a good reason.
Shortly - nothing significant new or not expected. I have to think about it, but I don' t see any significant impact on Speed Mob list. Secondaries still sucks.
However, if you play the lists with the infantry, there are 2 types of important changes:
1. Minimu of “3 models per unit to score” limit. Say goodbey to 1 model for 40p teleporting around.
Tomsug wrote: Maybe, you should define “regular termie” first.
You mean bare naked datasheet? Or what you face regularly on the table? That is very different, because what you face is usualy something like 2+/4++ +1 to save 5+++ and 15 pushups as penalty for the attacker for every killed model. The point of your discussion is maybe in the ork (in)ability to boost MANs.
I mean standard ones, like terminators from the SM codex, SM supplements and Chaos Space Marines codex (although this one is pretty old). Those who cost 35ish points per model or less.
Deathshroud aren't regular termies for example, at 50ppm they cost as much as light vehicles like rokkit killa kanz or deffkoptas. Psyker ones aren't regular termies either. How many SM terminators do we see these days? In mean in SM or Chaos Space Marines armies. Definitely less than meganobz. The only termies/equivalents we really see more than meganobz are a few bespoke units, with tons of faction related buffs on top of the typical statelines and additional rules, they're also quite more expensive that other termies and their counterparts from other factions.
Ok, but honestly, I haven' t seen such units for… ages? Like my MANs on the table I guess…
Hey guys, does this rules part mean I can use the Bomb Squig in my commandos if I advance or do I still need a shoota in that unit for that. (To make them an eligible unit for shooting due to the rules for assault weapons.)
While that part of rare rules speaks of "abilities used instead of shooting", the Bomb Squig rules say it can be used "when a unit is selected to shoot".
So theoretically it seems to be the same but the wording isn't a 100% clear case as it does not speak of releasing Bomb squigs being an ability used instead of shooting.
Because I'm building the last commandos to max them out right know and I want to know if I need those 3 shootas or not.
Tomsug wrote: CA22 full secondaries liek (or should be).
Shortly - nothing significant new or not expected. I have to think about it, but I don' t see any significant impact on Speed Mob list. Secondaries still sucks.
However, if you play the lists with the infantry, there are 2 types of important changes:
1. Minimu of “3 models per unit to score” limit. Say goodbey to 1 model for 40p teleporting around.
Tomsug wrote: Maybe, you should define “regular termie” first.
You mean bare naked datasheet? Or what you face regularly on the table? That is very different, because what you face is usualy something like 2+/4++ +1 to save 5+++ and 15 pushups as penalty for the attacker for every killed model. The point of your discussion is maybe in the ork (in)ability to boost MANs.
I mean standard ones, like terminators from the SM codex, SM supplements and Chaos Space Marines codex (although this one is pretty old). Those who cost 35ish points per model or less.
Deathshroud aren't regular termies for example, at 50ppm they cost as much as light vehicles like rokkit killa kanz or deffkoptas. Psyker ones aren't regular termies either. How many SM terminators do we see these days? In mean in SM or Chaos Space Marines armies. Definitely less than meganobz. The only termies/equivalents we really see more than meganobz are a few bespoke units, with tons of faction related buffs on top of the typical statelines and additional rules, they're also quite more expensive that other termies and their counterparts from other factions.
Ok, but honestly, I haven' t seen such units for… ages? Like my MANs on the table I guess…
For speed mob specifically
Engage was nerfed to require 3+ models—- making 3x bikes the bare minimum to trigger it
“Retrieve nachmund data” and “deploy teleport homer” are both doable by bikers and both benefit from being able to advance and still able to activate.
Honestly the only thing that can truly help orks speedmob competitively is if kannonwagons gain wagon Keyword and nob bikers gain (big red button, core, cloud of smoke, and +1 wound like they should have)
For speed mob specifically
Engage was nerfed to require 3+ models—- making 3x bikes the bare minimum to trigger it
“Retrieve nachmund data” and “deploy teleport homer” are both doable by bikers and both benefit from being able to advance and still able to activate.
Honestly the only thing that can truly help orks speedmob competitively is if kannonwagons gain wagon Keyword and nob bikers gain (big red button, core, cloud of smoke, and +1 wound like they should have)
Yeah, Engage nerfed! You are right. But I didn' t play it even before.
Retrieve Data - well, just one unit per turn. Minimum is squad of 3 bikers. So you have 50% chance to pass. You have max 5 turns. So in average 2,5 datas retrieved. That is 4VP “for sure” or 8VP “with luck”. This is really bad. Can I use Command reroll on this at least?
Teleport Homers - that is an option, but same like before. And same problem. God Bitz are in the same category and in most of the missions better than Homers. At least, you can do them multiple times in single turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think we' re fine. 62% win rate from the last week on reddit metawatch and nobody screams about orks. We' ve get under the radar. That is good.
I haven' t seen all the lists, but it smells like a Speed Mob Kopta spam on a rise…
Other terminators arent expected to die when they arrive. Ours are.
I disagree with that. Regular termies aren't really more durable than meganobz. 5++ means nothing unless being hit by AP-4 weapons and meganobz shouldn't be targeted by such weapons. Against anything else they'd roll 5+ or 4+ saves, exactly like SM ones. Meganobz should simply have redundancy. If they draw away fire from the buggies, koptas, bikes, planes of other similar stuff good, that's how an army is supposed to work.
Regular terminators also don't have re-rolls on the charges which might leave them exposed more easily. Built in deepstrike but also no fast vehicles to be delivered, and it's much easier to screen against deepstrikers and force them to appear in a not very juicy spot than blocking movement from a very fast transport. I also play SW and my termies are much worse compared to meganobz, even with built in +1 to hit in melee on top of other marines buffs.
There isn't a significant difference from 35ppm to 30ppm, it's 25 points for a 5 man squad. I'll take it but I was playing meganobz quite frequently anyway.
2) Despite what some people have said I think Killa Kanz with skorchas are deadly if used right. They are better than any other unit in the telly porta because they are deadly, slow, and can have ramming speed applied to them. For 160 points you get 4d6 S5 AP1 flamer shots, 20 WS4+ S8 AP3 3D attacks, essentially cheaper flamer meganobz. Again I expect them to die next turn, but if you DS them on the flanks there is a decent chance 1 or 2 will survive as the opponent has to bring their big firepower down the middle on the Kill Rigs / Hunta Rigs.
Killa Kanz are IMHO a legit unit in 3 man squads. I play them sometimes and I found that all three loadouts can be justified. Skorchas might look the best option but they need deepstrike (so 2CP) to do something in the shooting phase, while rokkits are good but a bit expensive. Big shootas aren't good but cheap, with long range and with AP-1 for a couple of turns they're not really that bad compared to skorchas.
The problem is we are talking about competitive builds not whatever builds. Nobody is bringing bare bones, vanilla terminators. What they are bringing is death shrouds and the DA version and a couple of other specialty builds, usually they are rocking a 4++ save with +1 armor or similar durability boost, usually they are so expensive that their owner has no problem popping transhuman on them or in the case of the DA ones, they get it natively baked into their stat sheet. Are those versions more expensive? absolutely, but they serve their purpose wonderfully. A unit of 5 Deathwing terminators hanging out in cover on an objective are Armor 0, you need not 1, not 2 but 3AP just to get them to a 3+ armor save. They can't be wounded except on a 4+ and if you get close enough to start inflicting dmg in CC and to take an objective from them, they are dangerous as all hell, WS2 with 2 different weapon options that make them good against hordes and good against elites.
Compare them to Meganobz. Meganob is 35ppm right now, lets use the possible 30pts, a Deathwing knight is 47. A full unit is basically 240pts because you almost always take the watcher. so 48pts. For 240pts you could take 8 Meganobz.
8 Meganobz get 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds (only wound on 4s) and against Storm shields they get 4+ saves for 3 failed saves which results in 1 dead Knight and 1 wounded knight.
Knights swing. 16 attacks, 13.3 hits, wounds on 3s so 8.8 wounds at -3AP so almost exactly 6 go through for 12dmg, dmg spills over thanks to weapon so that is 4 dead Meganobz.
Yes, Meganobz are garbage, and against their competitive terminator cousins they just do not compare. So dropping them down to 30pts is a step in the right direction, but it does not address their fundamental problem which is they serve no purpose. Are they extremely durable objective holders? No. Are they super elite killing machines? No. Are they cheap enough that you can just chuck wave after wave of them at a target and beat it down? No.
Meganobz need a dmg increase rather than a points drop.
A regular Nob is over priced at 18ppm, and by a large margin, but what does the meganob get over the nob for possibly 12ppm more? 1 more wound, +2 armor, a PK and a useless kustom shoota. Honestly, Nobz should be about 12ppm to be competitive, and Meganobz if they don't receive a hefty buff in durability/dmg should be closer to 20-24. The PK is over priced at 10ppm, the Kommandos have it right, its a 5pt upgrade at best since it gives the user -1 to hit. +2 armor is good but not great, especially in a game where melta/plasma and Tau exist
Jidmah wrote: A unit is not not eligible to shoot after advancing unless it has at least one assault weapon.
Shootas are dakka weapons, the only assault weapon available to kommadoz is the burna.
Going to have to disagree. The rare rule says it allows units without guns to shoot and it allows them to do so after advancing. So a unit without guns by default does not have an assault weapon and therefore by your logic wouldn't be eligible to be chosen to shoot, but that rules allows them to use an ability AKA the Bomb squig. Its going to be a rare scenario where it happens but I don't think its illegal to use a bomb squig after advancing since its not a ranged weapon, rather an ability.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and Killakanz. No, they are still hot garbage and for the same reasons as the meganobz...in fact they are incredibly similar now.
Neither knows what it wants to be doing, neither are overly durable, neither are really good at CC, and the kanz are slightly worse at CC but better at ranged combat. Kanz worry more about Morale, but the thing that really kills them for me is their weapon loadouts/dmg output.
A kan is getting 4 attacks at WS4 in CC which is great for them, the problem is they are M6 and require teleporta strike to get in range relatively intact, because mork knows you don't want them foot sloggin since they have LD6.
Ranged combat wise though...I'm sorry, but at no point is 3 big shootas for 120pts worth it. Yup, let that sing in, GW has decided that because a Kan is just so amazing it requires a price tag of 120pts for 3, or possibly soon to be 105pts. And their basic weapon load at that value is a single Big shoota at BS4. At half range you get 15 shots, 7.5 hits, Against T4 its 5 wounds and against a 3+ that is 1.6dmg, for those 2 turns during a speedwaaagh it gets bumped to a mind altering, OP level of...2.5dmg. You could spend the entire game plinking away at half range and you wouldn't make your points back . The rokkitz are the only good "Ranged" option and because someone at GW has PTSD from Kan wall back in 4th (or 5th) they are 15ppm instead of 10 like everyone else pays. So now those 105pts of Kanz are 150 for 3 rokkitz. I honestly don't think Tankbustas are good right now, but for 150pts they get 9 Rokkitz which even at BS5 are significantly better (still garbage in my opinion)
The competitive option I would assume would then be the relatively cheap Skorcha which is a 5ppm upgrade which puts the unit of 3 back to 120pts for 3D6 S5 AP-1 auto-hits. Works out to 10.5 hits, against T4 and 3+ armor that becomes 3.5dmg. You could just take as useless meganobz and for 120pts do the exact same thing, or if its a beta strike skorcha threat, you could just use Burna's which for the same price, and with the Pyromaniacs upgrade put out 36 S4 no AP shots which against that same target works out to 6 dmg, and you still have 2 confused spanners with KMBs hanging out looking for targets of opportunity, against those same T4 3+ they themselves do another 3ish dmg on average.
All of that is to say that there really isn't a scenario where Kanz or meganobz accomplish a task that can't be done cheaper/better by another unit.
For speed mob specifically
Engage was nerfed to require 3+ models—- making 3x bikes the bare minimum to trigger it
“Retrieve nachmund data” and “deploy teleport homer” are both doable by bikers and both benefit from being able to advance and still able to activate.
Honestly the only thing that can truly help orks speedmob competitively is if kannonwagons gain wagon Keyword and nob bikers gain (big red button, core, cloud of smoke, and +1 wound like they should have)
Yeah, Engage nerfed! You are right. But I didn' t play it even before.
Retrieve Data - well, just one unit per turn. Minimum is squad of 3 bikers. So you have 50% chance to pass. You have max 5 turns. So in average 2,5 datas retrieved. That is 4VP “for sure” or 8VP “with luck”. This is really bad. Can I use Command reroll on this at least?
Teleport Homers - that is an option, but same like before. And same problem. God Bitz are in the same category and in most of the missions better than Homers. At least, you can do them multiple times in single turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think we' re fine. 62% win rate from the last week on reddit metawatch and nobody screams about orks. We' ve get under the radar. That is good.
I haven' t seen all the lists, but it smells like a Speed Mob Kopta spam on a rise…
Agree I wouldn’t attempt RND unless you are running 3x 5 warbikers or more…. It’s easy to get in range but it requires a roll 5 or below each turn…
You can’t just look at last weeks win rates… we had 45% win rate the week before.. and as jidmah said for whatever reason the ork hate is huge people are already crying about how deffkoptas and wazbom need a nerf too… unless there is some better changes for us we will be at best a low A high B tier army..it makes no sense why they keep nerfing orks who have a 9th Ed codex 55% win rate….
Yes, Meganobz are garbage, and against their competitive terminator cousins they just do not compare. So dropping them down to 30pts is a step in the right direction, but it does not address their fundamental problem which is they serve no purpose. Are they extremely durable objective holders? No. Are they super elite killing machines? No. Are they cheap enough that you can just chuck wave after wave of them at a target and beat it down? No.
Meganobz need a dmg increase rather than a points drop.
Maybe we disagree about how meganobz should be designed. I for example would certainly prefer 50ppm meganobz which are approx as good as deathshrouds, instead of 30ppm ones with current stats or with a minor buff in damage output. At the moment with the current stats and points cost they compete with something like Bladeguard Veterans, certainly not the much more powerful and expensive Deathshroud termies. Current design for meganobz is being a cheap generalist heavy armored infantry unit, they're not bad for that role, they're just as durable and as powerful as a 30-35ppm model should be.
Ranged combat wise though...I'm sorry, but at no point is 3 big shootas for 120pts worth it.
Points costs should reflect all the model's stats and abilities, not only the shooting phase. It's a WS4+ BS4+ T5 W5 3+ model with 3 S8 AP-3 D3 attacks. Not just a guy with a big shoota. Something like that can't really be cheaper than 35-40 points. Maybe it's those units that can accomplish the same tasks but cheaper/better that need some price hikes, sometimes even significant ones, and I'm not just talking about orks.
And to be honest we already had top placings with meganobz and kanz without the upcoming points drops.
Jidmah wrote: People are already whining about nerfing koptas
Yup, that discussion about the lack of satisfaction of us not getting MORE price bumps for guys like deffkoptas in the news and rumour thread was definitely eye-opening. Gork forbid we have semi-functional units. No, Ork units must not only be fragile and inaccurate, we must be overpriced as well! It's not like a huge part of our army identity is target saturation or anything...
Seriously, I wish these whiners would try playing Orks and see how non-functional a combined arms approach is for our army compared to other factions. You can't just pick and choose units and hope things go well.
Custodes... a few rounds with the new codex and between being able to subtract an attack for a turn, their transhuman strat, limited distance to pile in etc. they have a lot of tools against orks this is going to take some work to adjust to in a take all comers list. Also the ignore -1Ap chapter is... rough
Yes, Meganobz are garbage, and against their competitive terminator cousins they just do not compare. So dropping them down to 30pts is a step in the right direction, but it does not address their fundamental problem which is they serve no purpose. Are they extremely durable objective holders? No. Are they super elite killing machines? No. Are they cheap enough that you can just chuck wave after wave of them at a target and beat it down? No.
Meganobz need a dmg increase rather than a points drop.
Maybe we disagree about how meganobz should be designed. I for example would certainly prefer 50ppm meganobz which are approx as good as deathshrouds, instead of 30ppm ones with current stats or with a minor buff in damage output. At the moment with the current stats and points cost they compete with something like Bladeguard Veterans, certainly not the much more powerful and expensive Deathshroud termies. Current design for meganobz is being a cheap generalist heavy armored infantry unit, they're not bad for that role, they're just as durable and as powerful as a 30-35ppm model should be.
That just isn't true though Blackie. A bladeguard veteran is Faster, same WS, +2BS, -1 Strength, -1Toughness, same W, more attacks technically, better leadership and -1 armor...kind of. Because All Bladeguard come standard with a Stormshield which gives them 2+ armor and a 4+ invuln. They are 35pts right now, so the same as Meganobz, They all get 3 attacks base, but +1 on the first round of combat and their sgt actually gets +1 attacks. They swing at S5 AP-3 2dmg, so a poor mans Powerfist, but they don't have -1 to hit. Against a unit of Marines, 3 blade guard get 13 attacks, 8.6 hits, 5.7 wounds and against 3+ thats 4.8 unsaved wounds or just shy of 5 dead Marines. Meganobz get 9 attacks, 4.5 hits, 3.7 wounds and 3.1 dead Marines. Against Chaff the bladeguard are still better. Against vehicles? 3 blade guard do 4.8dmg 3 meganobz do 5. So dmg wise a bladeguard veteran is better in most circumstances or just slightly worse against T6-8 vehicles. They are MORE durable because they have a 4+ invuln and again, easy access to transhuman unless they are DA in which case they get it stock. So I don't think a meganob is a good "Generalist heavy armored infantry unit" and its not "as durable and as powerful as a 30-35ppm model should be". I'd rather they get a durability/dmg buff then a points decrease.
Ranged combat wise though...I'm sorry, but at no point is 3 big shootas for 120pts worth it.
Points costs should reflect all the model's stats and abilities, not only the shooting phase. It's a WS4+ BS4+ T5 W5 3+ model with 3 S8 AP-3 D3 attacks. Not just a guy with a big shoota. Something like that can't really be cheaper than 35-40 points. Maybe it's those units that can accomplish the same tasks but cheaper/better that need some price hikes, sometimes even significant ones, and I'm not just talking about orks.
And to be honest we already had top placings with meganobz and kanz without the upcoming points drops.
Compare it to an aggressor than. About the same price (135pts for a unit of aggressors right now) they are T5, 3W, 3+ armor, they have 6+D6 S4 shots at BS3 AND 3 attacks (4 in first round and 4(5) for sgt) at S8 -3AP 2dmg. And those guys aren't considered competitive right now.
The fact is that the killakan with big shootas is just a crappier version of an aggressor.
Jidmah wrote: People are already whining about nerfing koptas
"Orks relying on spam to win yet again I see"
That's because most of our units are baaaad, of course we're spamming the good stuff
"Why don't you just take boys!"
Because you muppets complained about them so much that GW nerfed them into the ground.
"Why don't you take Battlewagons!"
Because you muppets complained about them so much that GW nerfed them into the ground.
"Why don't you take specialist units like Burnas or tankbustas?
Because you muppets complained about them so much that GW nerfed them into the ground.
"Why don't you take more mek gunz like you used to?"
Because you muppets complained about them so much that GW nerfed them into the ground.
ad infinitum, ad nauseam
Everytime we get a decent unit the interwebs erupt with "NERF THE ORKZ!" Dude lootas were god awful in 8th but so many complained about the loota bomb that lootas are unplayable garbage now.
It's also incredibly hypocritical because these are the same exact people who spam redemptor dreadnoughts, volkite contemptors and Talos without batting an eye. When your army isn't super overtuned like DE is where you can make a pretty competitive list for most of its units, of course you're going to be taking the most optimal stuff in your army. What, do they expect 50% of our list to be comprised of grots or something?
I was going to say it’s just a property of orks, seeming strong, but never having the slowness or swingy nature of a thing understood to justify the high damage, but looking at other stuff in 9th I think it’s literally just because we’re orks. Dark lance averages what, 1.65 damage against a tank due to 9th wargear buffs (and can go higher due to trueborn and archons and such) while the rokkity ork “equivalent” does .22 damage, having to move to get in range. I heard people crying out a ton about tankbustas going to be op, but never really anything major about dark lances in specific.
So I've sat and tinkered with my list, assuming that the rumoured points changes are correct, and it hasn't even changed that much all things considered.
In essence my Kommando mobs have gone from 10 to 5 apiece and lost the bomb squigs, and I've lost a Rukkatrukk. But I've also gained Nitro Squigs on the remaining rukkatrukk and I've even managed to fit in a now cheaper Kannonwagon.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: I was going to say it’s just a property of orks, seeming strong, but never having the slowness or swingy nature of a thing understood to justify the high damage, but looking at other stuff in 9th I think it’s literally just because we’re orks. Dark lance averages what, 1.65 damage against a tank due to 9th wargear buffs (and can go higher due to trueborn and archons and such) while the rokkity ork “equivalent” does .22 damage, having to move to get in range. I heard people crying out a ton about tankbustas going to be op, but never really anything major about dark lances in specific.
I think DE have been top dogs for so long that people have gotten desensitized to how busted they are (considering the amount of points/erratas changes they've received and they're STILL so strong says something) and so no one bothers really complaining about them anymore. Orks on the other hand have never really had the longevity of competitiveness that other armies have, so when our codex came out swinging and in skew lists, which usually push towards more one-sided games because we don't win wars of attrition like DG do, people freak out and think that we need to be put into the dirt. It's also supported by competitive players who prefer easier armies to collect like marines.
SemperMortis wrote: The problem is we are talking about competitive builds not whatever builds.
Since this is the second time you bring this up - this thread is about all competitive gaming, i.e. gaming to win. It is explicitly not just about perfectly optimized lists in tournament settings, it is just part of the thread rules to keep people regularly starting the "I'm not playing just to win" or "I'm not WAAC!" discussion.
You are supposed to state which kind of game you are discussing and have to accept that their point isn't invalid just because you never meet such units in your play style.
It's also worth noting that when you deem vanilla terminators too bad to see play and blackie says that MANz are even worse than them, you kind of are on the same page.
Jidmah wrote: A unit is not not eligible to shoot after advancing unless it has at least one assault weapon.
Shootas are dakka weapons, the only assault weapon available to kommadoz is the burna.
Going to have to disagree. The rare rule says it allows units without guns to shoot and it allows them to do so after advancing. So a unit without guns by default does not have an assault weapon and therefore by your logic wouldn't be eligible to be chosen to shoot, but that rules allows them to use an ability AKA the Bomb squig. Its going to be a rare scenario where it happens but I don't think its illegal to use a bomb squig after advancing since its not a ranged weapon, rather an ability.
Bomb squigs are used when you select a unit to shoot: Once per turn, when a unit with a bomb squig is selected to shoot or fire Overwatch, if it has any bomb squigs remaining, the unit can release one.
Shooting phase rules: Start your Shooting phase by selecting one eligible unit from your army to shoot with. An eligible unit is one that has one or more models equipped with ranged weapons. Units that Advanced this turn, and units that Fell Back (other than TITANIC units) this turn are not eligible.
You are not allowed to select a unit to shoot if it has advanced unless it has an assault weapon: If a unit includes any models equipped with Assault weapons, that unit is still eligible to shoot with in your Shooting phase even if it has Advanced this turn,[...]
The rare rules change nothing about that, as it's not an "instead of shooting" ability. Technically it's even in addition to shooting.
It's also worth noting that when you deem vanilla terminators too bad to see play and blackie says that MANz are even worse than them, you kind of are on the same page.
I said that MANz are better than vanilla terminators.
Ok, then I got you wrong. I would disagree on that though, for the sole reason that storm bolters are actually decent shooting, which is not the case for MANz.
If orks had a second terminator unit with storm shields or weapon options similar to blight lords or scarabs, you wouldn't even think one second about bringing MANz.
SemperMortis wrote: The problem is we are talking about competitive builds not whatever builds.
Since this is the second time you bring this up - this thread is about all competitive gaming, i.e. gaming to win. It is explicitly not just about perfectly optimized lists in tournament settings, it is just part of the thread rules to keep people regularly starting the "I'm not playing just to win" or "I'm not WAAC!" discussion.
You are supposed to state which kind of game you are discussing and have to accept that their point isn't invalid just because you never meet such units in your play style.
It's also worth noting that when you deem vanilla terminators too bad to see play and blackie says that MANz are even worse than them, you kind of are on the same page.
Jidmah wrote: A unit is not not eligible to shoot after advancing unless it has at least one assault weapon.
Shootas are dakka weapons, the only assault weapon available to kommadoz is the burna.
Going to have to disagree. The rare rule says it allows units without guns to shoot and it allows them to do so after advancing. So a unit without guns by default does not have an assault weapon and therefore by your logic wouldn't be eligible to be chosen to shoot, but that rules allows them to use an ability AKA the Bomb squig. Its going to be a rare scenario where it happens but I don't think its illegal to use a bomb squig after advancing since its not a ranged weapon, rather an ability.
Bomb squigs are used when you select a unit to shoot: Once per turn, when a unit with a bomb squig is selected to shoot or fire Overwatch, if it has any bomb squigs remaining, the unit can release one.
Shooting phase rules: Start your Shooting phase by selecting one eligible unit from your army to shoot with. An eligible unit is one that has one or more models equipped with ranged weapons. Units that Advanced this turn, and units that Fell Back (other than TITANIC units) this turn are not eligible.
You are not allowed to select a unit to shoot if it has advanced unless it has an assault weapon: If a unit includes any models equipped with Assault weapons, that unit is still eligible to shoot with in your Shooting phase even if it has Advanced this turn,[...]
The rare rules change nothing about that, as it's not an "instead of shooting" ability. Technically it's even in addition to shooting.
There are rules for how to use the bomb squigs? I just thought they were abilities that happened to be used in the shooting phase. So that you may not need line of sight either as other abilities dont ened line of sight (i think?). That you could use them while in CC if you wanted, that you could use them even if you fell back or made an advance move? So one cant use bomb squigs if they advance?
As far as im aware bomb squigs, being abilities, are not shooting attacks. And an enemy would not get look out sir either. It would also not activate the nemesis dread knight teleport because again, its not a shooting attack, but an ability like any other abilities.
I have never used them as shooting attacks, ive used them like any other ability happening in the command phase or any other phase, just our ability happens in the shooting phase. Its just an ability. If it was a normal shooting attack i would assume it needed a hit roll or even a wound roll but it doesnt. You cant reroll the die trigger on a +3 because its not a hit roll. one also dont hit on 6s when using it in the overwatch phase, one hits on +3.
All in all i dont see why it should follow the standard shooting rules when its not a shooting attack.
Jidmah wrote: Of course there are rules for how to use bomb squigs.
Check the datasheet of any unit that has the option for one.
sure but i just thought it followed the same rules as any other abilities. That it happens in the shooting phase was irrelevant, and it wouldnt be an actual shooting attack because of that.
Like the ability, Word of the emperor for sisters of battle. As far as im aware they can use that ability after they have advanced. So why shouldnt we be able to use our ability after we have advanced? Dont all abilities follow the same rules unless specifically written otherwise?
Jidmah wrote: People are already whining about nerfing koptas
Yup, that discussion about the lack of satisfaction of us not getting MORE price bumps for guys like deffkoptas in the news and rumour thread was definitely eye-opening. Gork forbid we have semi-functional units. No, Ork units must not only be fragile and inaccurate, we must be overpriced as well! It's not like a huge part of our army identity is target saturation or anything...
Seriously, I wish these whiners would try playing Orks and see how non-functional a combined arms approach is for our army compared to other factions. You can't just pick and choose units and hope things go well.
I’m of the opinion that the vast majority of players who do well at tournaments and regularly play multiple high performing armies don’t play orks. There are a few known playtesters that have some orks…. But most don’t and even fewer play orks when they are at tournament since those lists tend to be skew and extremely expensive to build. (If I had to list a few known competitor players who play orks most of these aren’t playtesters are root, navanti, manny, Reece)…
So my point is when orks do well in tournaments these competitive players tend to have a larger voice and complain about the armies they don’t play.. and talk about how oppressive orks are. The rules team then make adjustments based on this feedback. This was blatantly on display during the socal open when Gw made an emergency nerf to orks (and ad mech) based on that 1 tournament even though orks already had its chapter approved points changes done… we didn’t get an early release of those point adjustments we got a seperate early nerf followed by the chapter approved points nerf. It didn’t matter orks had a healthy 55% win rate.. all that mattered was orks were a strong tournament army that was beating other more popular builds. It’s bs and I know I’m speaking to the choir here but it’s crazy how orks aren’t even in the top 5 codex anymore and they are still calling for nerfs.
I mean some changes are needed such as the aircraft limit. Heck even a 10pt bump to squigbuggy was warranted but the other point nerfs without any meaningful point changes to most infantry units is just knee jerk crap. And the buggy limit is kind of the dumbest design changes that completely ruins any point in taking kustom jobs. I’m usually pro competitive balance but the undue influence select people have in 40K is ruining the game.
Jidmah wrote: Every ability follows its own rules, there is no general rules framework.
You can only release a bomb squig after selecting a unit to shoot. Advancing a unit prevents you from selecting it.
so you can only advance and fire a bomb squig if you have a flamethrower kommando? that makes no sense to me.
Correct on both accounts - that's how it works and it also doesn't make any sense
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gungo wrote: I’m of the opinion that the vast majority of players who do well at tournaments and regularly play multiple high performing armies don’t play orks. There are a few known playtesters that have some orks…. But most don’t and even fewer play orks when they are at tournament since those lists tend to be skew and extremely expensive to build. (If I had to list a few known competitor players who play orks most of these aren’t playtesters are root, navanti, manny, Reece)…
Yeah, out of the people who came out as play testers at the beginning of 9th many weren't playing orks at all. Those who actually do play orks aren't experts on them, but are more of the "I play all armies" kind of people who in general don't do too well with orks to begin with. When people like them play orks on stream it often causes my physical pain to watch.
Even for the pros who do take orks to tournaments, like Nick Nanavati or Reece, they have been quite infamous about how bad and wrong their analysis of ork rules are.
Jidmah wrote: People are already whining about nerfing koptas
Yup, that discussion about the lack of satisfaction of us not getting MORE price bumps for guys like deffkoptas in the news and rumour thread was definitely eye-opening. Gork forbid we have semi-functional units. No, Ork units must not only be fragile and inaccurate, we must be overpriced as well! It's not like a huge part of our army identity is target saturation or anything...
Seriously, I wish these whiners would try playing Orks and see how non-functional a combined arms approach is for our army compared to other factions. You can't just pick and choose units and hope things go well.
I’m of the opinion that the vast majority of players who do well at tournaments and regularly play multiple high performing armies don’t play orks. There are a few known playtesters that have some orks…. But most don’t and even fewer play orks when they are at tournament since those lists tend to be skew and extremely expensive to build. (If I had to list a few known competitor players who play orks most of these aren’t playtesters are root, navanti, manny, Reece)…
So my point is when orks do well in tournaments these competitive players tend to have a larger voice and complain about the armies they don’t play.. and talk about how oppressive orks are. The rules team then make adjustments based on this feedback. This was blatantly on display during the socal open when Gw made an emergency nerf to orks (and ad mech) based on that 1 tournament even though orks already had its chapter approved points changes done… we didn’t get an early release of those point adjustments we got a seperate early nerf followed by the chapter approved points nerf. It didn’t matter orks had a healthy 55% win rate.. all that mattered was orks were a strong tournament army that was beating other more popular builds. It’s bs and I know I’m speaking to the choir here but it’s crazy how orks aren’t even in the top 5 codex anymore and they are still calling for nerfs.
I mean some changes are needed such as the aircraft limit. Heck even a 10pt bump to squigbuggy was warranted but the other point nerfs without any meaningful point changes to most infantry units is just knee jerk crap. And the buggy limit is kind of the dumbest design changes that completely ruins any point in taking kustom jobs. I’m usually pro competitive balance but the undue influence select people have in 40K is ruining the game.
Yeah, between what you and Jidmah have said, it really does seem to be the case unfortunately. Just like we generally don't seem to have strong advocates on the GW rules team, we seem to lack a distinctive presence in terms of dedicated players on the tournament scene, which is a pity because even if you're not hyper competitive, rules changes still impact and trickle down to other styles of play.
We'll see if GW bother reversing the buggy restriction at some point, because it's just silly with how much of an overreaction everyone has had to Orks being able to hold their own. I want to equal opportunity krumpin dangit!
Jidmah wrote: People are already whining about nerfing koptas
Yup, that discussion about the lack of satisfaction of us not getting MORE price bumps for guys like deffkoptas in the news and rumour thread was definitely eye-opening. Gork forbid we have semi-functional units. No, Ork units must not only be fragile and inaccurate, we must be overpriced as well! It's not like a huge part of our army identity is target saturation or anything...
Seriously, I wish these whiners would try playing Orks and see how non-functional a combined arms approach is for our army compared to other factions. You can't just pick and choose units and hope things go well.
I’m of the opinion that the vast majority of players who do well at tournaments and regularly play multiple high performing armies don’t play orks. There are a few known playtesters that have some orks…. But most don’t and even fewer play orks when they are at tournament since those lists tend to be skew and extremely expensive to build. (If I had to list a few known competitor players who play orks most of these aren’t playtesters are root, navanti, manny, Reece)…
So my point is when orks do well in tournaments these competitive players tend to have a larger voice and complain about the armies they don’t play.. and talk about how oppressive orks are. The rules team then make adjustments based on this feedback. This was blatantly on display during the socal open when Gw made an emergency nerf to orks (and ad mech) based on that 1 tournament even though orks already had its chapter approved points changes done… we didn’t get an early release of those point adjustments we got a seperate early nerf followed by the chapter approved points nerf. It didn’t matter orks had a healthy 55% win rate.. all that mattered was orks were a strong tournament army that was beating other more popular builds. It’s bs and I know I’m speaking to the choir here but it’s crazy how orks aren’t even in the top 5 codex anymore and they are still calling for nerfs.
I mean some changes are needed such as the aircraft limit. Heck even a 10pt bump to squigbuggy was warranted but the other point nerfs without any meaningful point changes to most infantry units is just knee jerk crap. And the buggy limit is kind of the dumbest design changes that completely ruins any point in taking kustom jobs. I’m usually pro competitive balance but the undue influence select people have in 40K is ruining the game.
Yeah, between what you and Jidmah have said, it really does seem to be the case unfortunately. Just like we generally don't seem to have strong advocates on the GW rules team, we seem to lack a distinctive presence in terms of dedicated players on the tournament scene, which is a pity because even if you're not hyper competitive, rules changes still impact and trickle down to other styles of play.
We'll see if GW bother reversing the buggy restriction at some point, because it's just silly with how much of an overreaction everyone has had to Orks being able to hold their own. I want to equal opportunity krumpin dangit!
on buggies i actually did think the 9 squigbuggies was absurd just the fix of one unit of each vs just limiting squad sizes to 1 was dumb. my guess is somebody jsut wrote that to "save us detachment space" not realizing our vehicle squads cannot separate like some that have specific rules allowing it. I would also be cool with them just adding that rule to buggies to save us that detachment space and allow them to act independently.
also mentioned on the last page but lost in discussion of how basic shooting phase works, but man custodes... currently playing with options, but I think they might be the rock to the ork sissors.
On the subject of MAN'z and Killakans I am also in the fence. Point cuts are cool, but it's point cuts on a unit which has no clear role like many mentioned. The famed hybrid unit which has many trait's but is master of none.
This makes the unit unreliable and with out a clear purpose.
I am not sure how to approach the clear bias for other armies some of you describe. Being new, this makes me feel depressed, since the ones at helm know less then me because they do not play the army.
Jidmah, is it possible for you to point out where the section of the rules that affects abilities is? I am also under the impression that the rules are described in the ability itself and they don't share similarities with the phase. So the bomb squigs are not an attached weapon, but something that happens in the phase? That's how I understand it.
It's funny many people are complaining about orcs, but some of my locals just shared some of the things of the new tau codex and i am like.. if the orc salt was big.. imagine when they see this...
True. using 9 squig buggies was kind of malignant for the game as it breaks down the game. The game needs to have counter play, and massed units that dont need line of sight, dont have that. The ability to shoot without line of sight is in itself fine, as long as one cant mass said unit. Plagueburst crawlers cant be massed, they are fine, but squigbuggies and hiveguards are not.
In fact, no unit that can shoot without line of sight should ever be massed. And what happens when a unit can be massed that shoots without line of sight? Naturally they get spammed. And no one wants to play against people that have so many units shooting without line of sight, which cant be countered.
When the tyranids get their new codex they better not be able to mass Hive guards.
Us being able to run 9 squigbuggies was also kind of stupid. I dont have a problem with 9 of any other buggy though, just the squig buggy. And it annoys me that we cant bring more than 3 of the other buggies as they were never a problem.
Artillery is only oppressive because of the drastic dumbing down and outright removal of mechanics. Back in the day a guard artillery list could field loads of pretty powerful stuff, but had to contend with scatter and cover saves, but since those were removed simple “you can’t see through this plexiglass square” has become king. Artillery doesn’t degrade the game, the game has degraded the game.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: Artillery is only oppressive because of the drastic dumbing down and outright removal of mechanics. Back in the day a guard artillery list could field loads of pretty powerful stuff, but had to contend with scatter and cover saves, but since those were removed simple “you can’t see through this plexiglass square” has become king. Artillery doesn’t degrade the game, the game has degraded the game.
regardless, the way its implemented right now it doesnt work. Massed units that dont need line of sight degrade the game because it has no counters, and its unfun to play against. Sure if they brought back older rules or what ever but right now it sucks.
I will get very upset if they dont do something about Hive guards for the tyranid codex, now that they slashed our squig buggies.
I mean, there’s aircraft, there’s the ability to draw los with the super long range weapons we have now on most maps, deepstriking shooters, your own artillery. There’s solutions, people just don’t want to have to actually consider obstacles besides “what does the most damage” in list building.
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: Artillery is only oppressive because of the drastic dumbing down and outright removal of mechanics. Back in the day a guard artillery list could field loads of pretty powerful stuff, but had to contend with scatter and cover saves, but since those were removed simple “you can’t see through this plexiglass square” has become king. Artillery doesn’t degrade the game, the game has degraded the game.
regardless, the way its implemented right now it doesnt work. Massed units that dont need line of sight degrade the game because it has no counters, and its unfun to play against. Sure if they brought back older rules or what ever but right now it sucks.
I will get very upset if they dont do something about Hive guards for the tyranid codex, now that they slashed our squig buggies.
*looks at 9 hiveguard models to my left* well I guess we will see. though of note i have them to play against friends who do tournaments for tournament prep against likely lists, I would not put them against somebody not asking for a super hard list.
also my answer on the squigbuggy and all ignore LOS weapons would be -1 to hit much like power fists/power claws. also if unit is actually out of line of site +1 armor save
I think a limit of 3 buggies each is fine. Especially if it’s just a single unit that breaks into seperate units.
The 1 unit thing is the horse crap that ruins kustom jobs.
Forceride wrote: I am not sure how to approach the clear bias for other armies some of you describe. Being new, this makes me feel depressed, since the ones at helm know less then me because they do not play the army.
On the up side, the ork community has always been the biggest and friendlies ones among all armies
Jidmah, is it possible for you to point out where the section of the rules that affects abilities is? I am also under the impression that the rules are described in the ability itself and they don't share similarities with the phase. So the bomb squigs are not an attached weapon, but something that happens in the phase? That's how I understand it.
The rules of the squig itself can be found in the datasheets of kommadoz, tank bustas and squighog boyz.
The rules for when to select a unit to shoot is in the first paragraph of the shooting phase rules.
The rules for assault weapons state that a unit become eligible to shoot again.
The "instead of shooting" rules are in the rare rules section.
It's funny many people are complaining about orcs, but some of my locals just shared some of the things of the new tau codex and i am like.. if the orc salt was big.. imagine when they see this...
Usually other non-eldar xenos races are hit with the same amount of salt as orks Can't have the almighty empire or the all-consuming chaos lose to some random NPCs, right?
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Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: Artillery is only oppressive because of the drastic dumbing down and outright removal of mechanics. Back in the day a guard artillery list could field loads of pretty powerful stuff, but had to contend with scatter and cover saves, but since those were removed simple “you can’t see through this plexiglass square” has become king. Artillery doesn’t degrade the game, the game has degraded the game.
Massed barrage has been an issue in the past as well, and not just during times when barrage sniping was a thing. Stuff like TF cannons, lobbas and whirlwinds just didn't see play because their profiles didn't match the things that had to be killed.
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gungo wrote: I think a limit of 3 buggies each is fine. Especially if it’s just a single unit that breaks into seperate units.
The 1 unit thing is the horse crap that ruins kustom jobs.
Agree - they should just have axed the squadron mechanic and be done with it.
It’s really just what the court of public opinion regularly plays.. they tend to like aeldari, drukari (now for some reason), marines of all variety, and tau is a popular faction.
I mean orks will be fine but they like them B tier at best.. kinda decent and can get lucky and win but not something you bring if you want to win.
Our main saving grace is orks are usually fine with a single klan/sub faction (freebooter speedwaagh or evilsun speedmob and goff pressure list but the current build took a heavy beating) whereas most armies want 2 detachment builds and they didn’t touch warbikers/deffkoptas for now and they are decent in speedmob.
I’m just really annoyed by the amount of point nerfs without any real point fixes for most of our bad units… these point changes are clearly recommended by people who had salt to fix with good ork units and little insight into what bad units need fixing. The fact boys/grots/nobs/nob bikers/flashgitz or our myriad of overpriced support units wasn’t even glanced at to is attrocious. I appreciate the fix to lootas as they sorely needed it but fixing units like meganobs and killakans base points show how little the people recommending points changes to orks understand about our codex… again these are point adjustments recommended by a tournament/playtester base that doesn’t play or understand what they are doing with orks only airing thier grievances about where the bad ork touched them.
Forceride wrote: On the subject of MAN'z and Killakans I am also in the fence. Point cuts are cool, but it's point cuts on a unit which has no clear role like many mentioned. The famed hybrid unit which has many trait's but is master of none.
This makes the unit unreliable and with out a clear purpose.
100% this. Kanz and meganobz were already cheap, now they're really cheap. And yet they're not exceptional, and lots of players wouldn't even consider taking them anyway. At this point they're units that people might be encouraged to field only if they become really cheap, in order to be spammed or to invest the few spared points left from an almost finished list. And units that are viable only if they are spammed are actually bad, not good.
That's why I always prefer some rule or stats updates about such units, rather than points drops. Some really overpriced units that never see the table will remain massively overpriced, starting with flash gitz and nauts but also the banner nob, painboy, SAG big mek and probably tankbustas.
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gungo wrote: It’s really just what the court of public opinion regularly plays.. they tend to like aeldari, drukari (now for some reason), marines of all variety, and tau is a popular faction.
Many players see orks as the game's comic relief. Others want to feel some kind of supreme tactician of war and can't get along with a race of not particularly intelligent creatures.
Tomsug wrote: Spaming units… spamming units…. You mean these turboterminators spams? Dreadnouhts spams? Drukhari raiders spams?
This is a general design error with wargames. As soon as you allow spamming units to be competitive, defined as killy/survivable here, that´s what competitive players will do. Boredom ensues.
This is why X-Wing is popular. Kill factor moves on one axis while movement is an equally important one.
GW never succeeded in making a game that rewards anything but seeking deadly synergies. Objective play is a good step forward, but as long as they spend so much design time on layer upon layer of attack and defense it´s going to bog down into the same snarl of push and pull on what kills what best.
They need to start moving on other axis. I really like Dukk'An'Kuvva Blood axes got. That's fresh. But this coming Tau stuff of cutting through the bazillion layers of defense with big guns is just lazy and frustrating. Add all this bs plus and minuses just to ignore them again.
I often miss the RT days when there was charge reactions. "Your Assault marines charges those Craftworld Guardians? I guess they react by falling back." Next turn you roll Ld to rally them else they keep running. That was more interesting.
Forceride wrote: On the subject of MAN'z and Killakans I am also in the fence. Point cuts are cool, but it's point cuts on a unit which has no clear role like many mentioned. The famed hybrid unit which has many trait's but is master of none.
This makes the unit unreliable and with out a clear purpose.
100% this. Kanz and meganobz were already cheap, now they're really cheap. And yet they're not exceptional, and lots of players wouldn't even consider taking them anyway. At this point they're units that people might be encouraged to field only if they become really cheap, in order to be spammed or to invest the few spared points left from an almost finished list. And units that are viable only if they are spammed are actually bad, not good.
That's why I always prefer some rule or stats updates about such units, rather than points drops. Some really overpriced units that never see the table will remain massively overpriced, starting with flash gitz and nauts but also the banner nob, painboy, SAG big mek and probably tankbustas.
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gungo wrote: It’s really just what the court of public opinion regularly plays.. they tend to like aeldari, drukari (now for some reason), marines of all variety, and tau is a popular faction.
Many players see orks as the game's comic relief. Others want to feel some kind of supreme tactician of war and can't get along with a race of not particularly intelligent creatures.
honestly I am of the opinion points drops can fix almost anything in the game. You could make a horribly designed unit owrk for the right points. say a gretchin profilewhere the unit is a single model with the shooting profile of the new rail gun. it would basically have to stay out of line of sight and far back before it gets its one shot with a 50% chance to miss but might blow up a tank. worth more than a 5 point gretchin... yes, worth 100 points? no, worth 50 points... also no, but 20-30 points and people would probably take it as a sometimes answer to a hard nut to crack.
cheap meganobs sounds cool and with the cheaper battlewagons they might be useable to deliver where they need to go. will have to play with the new points to find out though
Scactha wrote: This is a general design error with wargames. As soon as you allow spamming units to be competitive, defined as killy/survivable here, that´s what competitive players will do. Boredom ensues.
This is why X-Wing is popular. Kill factor moves on one axis while movement is an equally important one.
GW never succeeded in making a game that rewards anything but seeking deadly synergies. Objective play is a good step forward, but as long as they spend so much design time on layer upon layer of attack and defense it´s going to bog down into the same snarl of push and pull on what kills what best.
They need to start moving on other axis. I really like Dukk'An'Kuvva Blood axes got. That's fresh. But this coming Tau stuff of cutting through the bazillion layers of defense with big guns is just lazy and frustrating. Add all this bs plus and minuses just to ignore them again.
I often miss the RT days when there was charge reactions. "Your Assault marines charges those Craftworld Guardians? I guess they react by falling back." Next turn you roll Ld to rally them else they keep running. That was more interesting.
You hit the point!
Since summer - new dex - playing my buggy army was a pain for me honestly. Sitting and couting +/-1 to hit. Want to move? Try it on a dense table with 10” buggy move with huge bases. And why, you want to be far away from the enemy. boooring!
Speed Mob is such a relieve! You can move! You can do tricks with positioning. And I don' t speek about DS tricks. I speak about moving with the models on the table. It is totaly different game . A game that is much more fun!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Rumour seems to be true. Squigbuggies +20, Beastboss +30, BW -15
So, 120pts for a battle wagon with deffrolla. That seems pretty solid as a decently tanky brick with a little combat to back it up. The big question is do they touch our infantry? From the tease we got a few other sub performing infantry got a points drop or two. Hopefully boyz and regular nobz get a touchup too. I'd love to do a wagon taxi list.
I think a nitro squigs rukkatrukk is still worthwhile, but I don't think I'll be using multiple vanilla rukkatrukks going forward.
BWs look like they could actually be vaguely viable as an option now. Possibly entering distraction carnifex territory as they're just threatening enough to warrant shooting at in favour of something else.
shockingly im not really upset at any of these ork changes, i expected them to hamstring us hardcore like they usually do.
Closest to upset is kommandos should have been 11 and boyz drop to 8 rather than just kommandoz goto 12. It made no sense for them to be virtually the same cost even if one isnt a troop and one is to justify the vast difference in durability/lethality.
Squigbuggy was too cheap for being able to easily wipe out a 5man squad of marines with no effort, every time i fielded one it usually made its points back immediately or at most 2 turns and since it sat out of sight it wasnt hard to have it last 2 turns. Too efficient when something can do that w/o basically sacrificing itself in the process imo.
I havnt even used the Squigboss yet as i rarely get 40k games right now but on paper i thought he was a bit nutso. 30pts might be a bit too much but not obscenely too much.
Wagons at 120pts with a rolla interests me greatly. Thats cheap, thats mega cheap. Considering they have no guns other than the unit that goes in them it seems right, especially since they lack any real defense other than raw toughness and wounds (something that is getting less and less valuable). I feel like i should have a wagon with some meganobz and boyz inside it again.
Squig buggies are still going to be okay I reckon, the same with squigosaurs. To be honest it was just too efficient for it's own good. It's been a staple in many of my lists and i' not sure if I can ever remember them not performing, usually overperforming like one shotting knights with damage to spare.
The wagon buff has got me excited. The idea of moving from bugger spam to driving a convoy of wagons up the field appeals to the goff in me. At 120 pts with a rolla it's not the be all and end all but for it's points and against it's preferred targets it should come out on top in most cases. And that's before anything they're carrying jumps out and clears some ground.
Scrapjet is mostly dead. You should be taking shokkjump and kbb or deffkoptas instead now.
Squigbuggy will be okay but you mostly should see a single nitro squig buggy now.
Wagon changes are nice to bad most of our transported infantry suck.
Killrigs are fine pointwise but you guys need to also remember when building lists they are getting a mission nerf where bring it down now rewards 3vp for each Killrig. It’s weighted like a superheavy now.
Beastboss on squig is just flat out overpriced. He’s ok but certainly not worth 175 pts a warlord slot and relic..heck his point cost is higher then mozrog the named beastboss and no he didn’t get a point increase. That makes no sense. Beastboss on squig is 15pts overcosted 30pts more for 175pt base cost is just an insane increase. Considering the warboss on bike cost 115pts!!! There is absolutely no point in ever taking the generic beastboss on squig.
The only pointdrop I’m mildly interested in is meganobs.
Eh, my huge gen cult army with that shiny new codex says “GW haven’t nerfed me yet, play me rather than those double nerfed greenskin dudes, you know we will be getting hit soon too, so enjoy while that lasts”.
None of the point drops appeal much to me, but I perhaps spamming kanz or meganobz could work. Not highly interested in that gameplay. What a missed opportunity for 70% of the ork codex…
I am very curious to see how other armies will get hit. We already know druk got a slap on the wrist unlike ad mech. Nid nerfs seem brutal from the leaks I have heard from my team
I would like to accenth we do not see a complete list of changes. Just some “message screenshot” leak and very incomplete GW article… who knows what else changed…
Wagon is 120 but with no 'ard case and invuln right? T8 and +1 save and 5++ makes it 150 unless I missed something. I woulnd't field it without those two upgrades.
Scrapjets are still good. They are the jack of trades buggies with anti infantry shooting, anti tank shooting and some melee punch. Paying +10-30 points for them doesn't change anything.
It's the squigbuggies that I wouldn't bring more than one now.
I'm also a bit sad that the actual units that NEVER see the table are left untouched. Hope we've just not seen everything.
Tomsug wrote: I would like to accenth we do not see a complete list of changes. Just some “message screenshot” leak and very incomplete GW article… who knows what else changed…
The warcom article basically confirmed the ork rumors from earlier, so I assume that is all there is.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blackie wrote: Wagon is 120 but with no 'ard case and invuln right? T8 and +1 save and 5++ makes it 150 unless I missed something. I woulnd't field it without those two upgrades.
Battle wagons are 3+ even without 'ard case and fortress is 20 points. So you can have a bare bones 5++ wagon for 125 or a deff rolla wagon with just 3+ for 120.
IMO T8 isn't as valuable as it used to be, I'd rather have open topped than T8.
IMHO open topped on wagons is useless. T7 is exactly like T6, we don't have valuable shooty units that need a transport and transport capacity of more than 10 is useless anyway on such units. I'd rather split the shooty unit in two trukks than a T7 wagon then. More wounds, the opponent has to concentrate on two vehicles instead of one (typically messing with ranges and possibly wasting multidamage hits by overkilling a vehicle), they're easier to hide, spared HS slots, more flexibility on the table. Or I'd just take a single trukk, +6W (and useless +1T +1 save) doesn't worth 50 points anyway.
125 points for a transport with no firepower or punch is a lot of wasted points while 120 for T7 and no save against dedicated anti tank is also too many points for how squishy this melee only unit is.
T8 is a massive upgrade since the most common anti tank weapons are S8. It makes a difference even the against the upcoming tau super weapons. So is 5++ typically, unless you gets it in another way. 150 vs 120-125 isn't a significant difference points wise.
Blackie wrote: With no souping clan allowed he might even be much cheaper than 130 points now and he wouldn't see the table anyway.
hah no souping is going to change so many things. Freebooters will probably benefit from this. Many klans/whatever "trait" equivalent in other armies will never ever be seen again.
Blackie wrote: With no souping clan allowed he might even be much cheaper than 130 points now and he wouldn't see the table anyway.
hah no souping is going to change so many things. Freebooters will probably benefit from this. Many klans/whatever "trait" equivalent in other armies will never ever be seen again.
Do you have any information on how that rule is going to be implemented?
Because rumor is that it makes armies lose their purity bonus, which orks don't have. Others say that you cannot freely pick <Clan> anymore, which wouldn't impact Mozrog either, since you can put him in patrol with specialist trukk boyz.
Blackie wrote: With no souping clan allowed he might even be much cheaper than 130 points now and he wouldn't see the table anyway.
hah no souping is going to change so many things. Freebooters will probably benefit from this. Many klans/whatever "trait" equivalent in other armies will never ever be seen again.
Do you have any information on how that rule is going to be implemented?
Because rumor is that it makes armies lose their purity bonus, which orks don't have. Others say that you cannot freely pick <Clan> anymore, which wouldn't impact Mozrog either, since you can put him in patrol with specialist trukk boyz.
I heard that you stick with one klan, but you are right, until anything official comes out, we should tread lightly
kingbbobb wrote: Mozrog Skragbad is actually cheaper than the generic beast boss on squig now
Fairly rare to see the generic character more expensive than the special character version
Well even if he was 130 would we see him ? No more souping clan cultures, so could a pure snakebite army be viable ? Hmmm...
While I beleive there is some type of no subfaction soup I need to see the actual rule… there are a lot of armies that just do poorly without soup or subfaction soup.
But even if subfaction soup for orks is allowed is mozrog worth spending for an aux detachment? Because he is not worth making your main detachment snakebite over goff even squigriders are still better as goff.
cody.d. wrote: So, 120pts for a battle wagon with deffrolla. That seems pretty solid as a decently tanky brick with a little combat to back it up. The big question is do they touch our infantry? From the tease we got a few other sub performing infantry got a points drop or two. Hopefully boyz and regular nobz get a touchup too. I'd love to do a wagon taxi list.
I´ve grown to like the 4x Big Shoota BA Deffrolla BWs/Breakas at St9 2+ to hit in melee over the overloaded Killrigs. Drive upp, Speedwaagh!, unload 24 St5 AP1 Dakka, bodyblock and be a general nuisance on the midline.
I'm also a bit sad that the actual units that NEVER see the table are left untouched. Hope we've just not seen everything.
This is my biggest grip with these point changes. Its like, they know they will piss off people with increasing the points cost of our units so they just grab some random units in our codex and reduce to make us happy. Theres no consistency to it.
Where is the reduction in boyz cost? clearly no one is using them competitively except for trukk boys. Flash Gitz? Lootas? (the rumor does reduce lootas price, but certainly not by enough). Tankbustas?
Or any other given unit that has never been featured in the competitive scene? Clearly there is a reason they arent used.
While select few have run tankbustas, the reason they dont pop up in the competitive scene is they dont benefit from any waaaghs, so you are better off getting something else that actually benefits from it. Shooting infantry for orks should be much cheaper to make it more appealing to use them in your army. Like burna boys for instance. cheap enough for what you get.
In general i see vehicles getting cheaper these days, which falls oddly in line with the previews of Tau weaponry, that will absolutely molest vehicles. Im not falling for it though, ill stick to my infantry hordes for now. I dont want to watch my entire army getting one shot.
So single <CLAN> armies only! Hell… That hurts orks a lot. Not fatal, but it hurts. But other armies too I guess… some of them..
So I have to choose with my Speed Mob being either Freeboota to get +1 to hit to 2 jets or Evil Sunz to have second move after shooting strategem.
This even reduce the need of more detachements, so some points could be saved on HQ and have more CPs…
Automatically Appended Next Post: This cripple the Wazboom a lot. Price rise + potentialy lost +1 to hit = that is really expensive unit for what it do…
Whelp, I guess mini-Blood Axe detachments are gone then, which kinda stinks given how the BA new supplement rules work. Kinda sucks, because that means Bad Moonz are even more dead in the water than they were already since you'd never take them as an entire army trait.
Named characters are exempt so mozrog is viable…. In an auxiliary detachment.
Superheavy get +2 command points if they share keyword… does this make the mork/gorkanaut playable.
gungo wrote: Named characters are exempt so mozrog is viable….
Superheavy get +2 command points if they share keyword… does this make the mork/gorkanaut playable.
To put it bluntly NO
Automatically Appended Next Post: Specialist Mobs look to be broken again.... Unless someone wants to correct me.
But Rules as intended is so strong here I doubt anyone would argue with you and try stop you including a unit of BIG KRUMPAZ etc
I mean I wouldn’t mind if they faq specialist mobs to keep <klan> keyword and just lose kulture ability like it originally should have been!
That would fix a lot of issues such as allowing them to have Strats or ride any transport or be affected by auras etc and make more then the default 2 specialist units viable. (Orrible gits and trukk boys)
Next they just need to make buggies into seperate units once deployed (and able to put kustom jobs on 1 model) and I’ll be happy with the ork army building rules…
I mean deathskulls was just the obj secured kommando faction this edition. I’d probably see just as many bloodaxe as deathskulls simply because of the supplement. But ya freebooter, goff and evilsun (barely) are going to be the only common factions.. minus those who want to try an auxiliary mozrog (cause snakebites are mostly garbage too)
In other more important news they did mention the new quarterly nerf update is coming early February.. this is actually a more up to date fix mechanic and hopefully the real drukari fix that’s needed.
Another rule change in February? What? Seriously? This is insane. It means we cannot plan the lists and know the game for more than month?
Automatically Appended Next Post: But it makes sence. If you change the game every month, you don' t need to do the FAQ and solve the problem. Just make another change. In sich speed, nobody will be able to say, the rule is unbalanced. Clever…
And this is why I've stopped buying codices since halfway through 8th edition. The rules change so much now that they're borderline unplayable or need a DLC upon release, almost as if GW are trying to ape the day one patches for video games. Which kind of sucks because I do like the new codex art cover, but it's not worth for the fluff when they've really stopped adding new pieces after a while.
GW should just release the rules online at this point. It would save us the trouble of having to keep track of so many things.
Running my Killrig tomorrow and I have a question.
The wurrtower has a range of 24” but my psychic spell selections max range is 12”. However the wurrtower converts from assault 1 to Assault D3 on the successful manifestation of a psychic power.
So say I’m 18” from the nearest target, can I cast the psychic power frazzle, damage nothing because everything is out of range but because I successfully manifested the power at the roll still convert the wurrtower to assault D3. Or do I need a target in range to successfully manifest?
Tomsug wrote: Another rule change in February? What? Seriously? This is insane. It means we cannot plan the lists and know the game for more than month?
Automatically Appended Next Post: But it makes sence. If you change the game every month, you don' t need to do the FAQ and solve the problem. Just make another change. In sich speed, nobody will be able to say, the rule is unbalanced. Clever…
Hopefully the relatively frequent points patches will let GW see where they need to amend their points changes as the edition goes on.
Tomsug wrote: Another rule change in February? What? Seriously? This is insane. It means we cannot plan the lists and know the game for more than month?
Automatically Appended Next Post: But it makes sence. If you change the game every month, you don' t need to do the FAQ and solve the problem. Just make another change. In sich speed, nobody will be able to say, the rule is unbalanced. Clever…
Hopefully the relatively frequent points patches will let GW see where they need to amend their points changes as the edition goes on.
Makes no sence. They do it bad. If they do it bad more often, it will be still bad. Just more often.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They need to do the FAQs more often and better. Speeding up CA to every 6 month is enough…
Well I see what they want to do. Make the system with less combination (lost the level of list building fun) and replace it by more frequent point changes (gain the level of list building “fun”).
Simply you will need to do the “taxes” instead of looking for combinations.
(9th codex is honestly the best one so far).
