DoktaRoksta wrote: Running my Killrig tomorrow and I have a question.
The wurrtower has a range of 24” but my psychic spell selections max range is 12”. However the wurrtower converts from assault 1 to Assault D3 on the successful manifestation of a psychic power.
So say I’m 18” from the nearest target, can I cast the psychic power frazzle, damage nothing because everything is out of range but because I successfully manifested the power at the roll still convert the wurrtower to assault D3. Or do I need a target in range to successfully manifest?
if your 18" use smite, but in answer to ur question yes , frazzle doesn't require you to select a target so manifesting and not causing damage is ok to charge wur tower
note however that the enemy must not deny.
core rules state =
"Successfully manifested: When attempting to manifest a psychic power, if the Psychic test was successful and there was no successful Deny the Witch test, then that power is said to be successfully manifested. Resolve its effects."
Tomsug wrote: Another rule change in February? What? Seriously? This is insane. It means we cannot plan the lists and know the game for more than month?
Automatically Appended Next Post: But it makes sence. If you change the game every month, you don' t need to do the FAQ and solve the problem. Just make another change. In sich speed, nobody will be able to say, the rule is unbalanced. Clever…
Hopefully the relatively frequent points patches will let GW see where they need to amend their points changes as the edition goes on.
Technically they said the quarterly updates are rules balance patches and won’t contain point changes..
Point changes are still only done in chapter approved which is about 6+ months…
However I agree with the sentiment that they should just remove points from the codex and put the points online or just leave it in a matched play point sheet online in the faq/errata section. People already get the points for free in both the Gw app and BattleScribe so it’s not hiding anything and they still need to buy the codex/chapter approved for the rules. They can leave powerratings in the codex so that people who are learning to play can just use that at first until they get into more matched playstyle games. Putting points in the codex is now useless.. ffs custodes has points changes in chapter approved and they just got released last week.
It does not change a lot. Last balance patch limited the jets to 2 and limited the number of buggies. It is not a small patch. It is a major change in the rules.
Blackie wrote: With no souping clan allowed he might even be much cheaper than 130 points now and he wouldn't see the table anyway.
hah no souping is going to change so many things. Freebooters will probably benefit from this. Many klans/whatever "trait" equivalent in other armies will never ever be seen again.
Do you have any information on how that rule is going to be implemented?
Because rumor is that it makes armies lose their purity bonus, which orks don't have. Others say that you cannot freely pick <Clan> anymore, which wouldn't impact Mozrog either, since you can put him in patrol with specialist trukk boyz.
the way its worded means he should be fine ...technically
It says "all units with SELECTABLE faction keyword" so because Mozrog is hard coded this rule doesn't apply to him. He can go in his detachment and be fine (minus klan kulture abilities of course).
assuming he is warlord the waaaagh would still work i think but the clan strat would be relatively useless.
DoktaRoksta wrote: Running my Killrig tomorrow and I have a question.
The wurrtower has a range of 24” but my psychic spell selections max range is 12”. However the wurrtower converts from assault 1 to Assault D3 on the successful manifestation of a psychic power.
So say I’m 18” from the nearest target, can I cast the psychic power frazzle, damage nothing because everything is out of range but because I successfully manifested the power at the roll still convert the wurrtower to assault D3. Or do I need a target in range to successfully manifest?
if your 18" use smite, but in answer to ur question yes , frazzle doesn't require you to select a target so manifesting and not causing damage is ok to charge wur tower
note however that the enemy must not deny.
core rules state =
"Successfully manifested: When attempting to manifest a psychic power, if the Psychic test was successful and there was no successful Deny the Witch test, then that power is said to be successfully manifested. Resolve its effects."
Bomb squigs are used when you select a unit to shoot: Once per turn, when a unit with a bomb squig is selected to shoot or fire Overwatch, if it has any bomb squigs remaining, the unit can release one.
Shooting phase rules: Start your Shooting phase by selecting one eligible unit from your army to shoot with. An eligible unit is one that has one or more models equipped with ranged weapons. Units that Advanced this turn, and units that Fell Back (other than TITANIC units) this turn are not eligible.
You are not allowed to select a unit to shoot if it has advanced unless it has an assault weapon: If a unit includes any models equipped with Assault weapons, that unit is still eligible to shoot with in your Shooting phase even if it has Advanced this turn,[...]
The rare rules change nothing about that, as it's not an "instead of shooting" ability. Technically it's even in addition to shooting.
Non-Shooting Abilities:
Such abilities can only be used in your shooting phase, but can be used even if your unit has no ranged weapons, or if it advanced or fell back this turn
Part one allows for units to be selected as eligible even though they lack ANY ranged weapons. Part two allows for advancing and still using this ability which supercedes any other restriction since it specifies it allows it. You and I can disagree to the end of time, but unless a tournament Judge says no, I will play it like they are allowed to since its pretty clear the intent behind this rare rule.
cody.d. wrote: So, 120pts for a battle wagon with deffrolla. That seems pretty solid as a decently tanky brick with a little combat to back it up. The big question is do they touch our infantry? From the tease we got a few other sub performing infantry got a points drop or two. Hopefully boyz and regular nobz get a touchup too. I'd love to do a wagon taxi list.
120pts for a battlewagon with deffrolla put it about 20pts over priced. T7 3+ isn't exactly that hard to kill these days, especially in an era where Tau are about to get a FETH YOU HH.
I don't expect boyz/beast boys/nobz etc to get points drops. There isn't a point level that makes them good, they will either be garbage or spammed. What they should really do is increase their abilities either in dmg or durability to make them WORTH 9ppm.
Vineheart01 wrote: shockingly im not really upset at any of these ork changes, i expected them to hamstring us hardcore like they usually do.
Closest to upset is kommandos should have been 11 and boyz drop to 8 rather than just kommandoz goto 12. It made no sense for them to be virtually the same cost even if one isnt a troop and one is to justify the vast difference in durability/lethality.
Squigbuggy was too cheap for being able to easily wipe out a 5man squad of marines with no effort, every time i fielded one it usually made its points back immediately or at most 2 turns and since it sat out of sight it wasnt hard to have it last 2 turns. Too efficient when something can do that w/o basically sacrificing itself in the process imo.
I havnt even used the Squigboss yet as i rarely get 40k games right now but on paper i thought he was a bit nutso. 30pts might be a bit too much but not obscenely too much.
Wagons at 120pts with a rolla interests me greatly. Thats cheap, thats mega cheap. Considering they have no guns other than the unit that goes in them it seems right, especially since they lack any real defense other than raw toughness and wounds (something that is getting less and less valuable). I feel like i should have a wagon with some meganobz and boyz inside it again.
A Squigbuggy, benefiting from freeboota kulture averages 10.5 shots, 5.25 hits, 3.5 wounds and -2AP means 2.3 dead Marines a turn, definitely not 5. So that was a 90pt unit killing 46(ish) points of intercessors a turn. Definitely above average, but not by an oppressive level, and keep in mind the little gun has an 18' range.
Squigboss is effectively dead to me. I never used it in my Alphork list because believe it or not its too slow. It's 10+D6+2D6 movement turn 1 is significantly behind say warbikes who are 14+6+2D6 and even Deffkoptas which are 14 + 3D6 ramming speed or Trukkboyz who are 12+3+5+D6+2D6
If anything he needed a buff in his rules to allow his aura to impact regular Orkz as well, then i might have considered him. But as of right now, I don't remember even seeing a top placing ork list using him...so +30 pts is a bit...dumb.
Finally, The wagons as mentioned are still over priced and not worth much. We pay a premium for its transport capacity, but we really don't have much to put into them now so its mostly wasted points.
I feel like the Squigboss was nerfed for its potential rather than what it was actually achieving in competitive games. As others have said we're only really seeing Bikerbosses and Megabosses in placing competitive lists, and yet the Squigboss got the nerf.
On paper it's pretty mean and pretty tough, but in reality it probably actually spent most of its games chasing things around the board being just out of threat range and getting shot for it's troubles.
Such abilities can only be used in your shooting phase, but can be used even if your unit has no ranged weapons, or if it advanced or fell back this turn
Part one allows for units to be selected as eligible even though they lack ANY ranged weapons. Part two allows for advancing and still using this ability which supercedes any other restriction since it specifies it allows it. You and I can disagree to the end of time, but unless a tournament Judge says no, I will play it like they are allowed to since its pretty clear the intent behind this rare rule.
The squig rule clearly states when to use it, ignoring that part is cheating.
The rule you are quoting only applies for rules uses INSTEAD of shooting, which squigs are not.
No matter how you turn it, you are wrong, and it's not a matter of opinion.
gungo wrote: Named characters are exempt so mozrog is viable…. In an auxiliary detachment.
Superheavy get +2 command points if they share keyword… does this make the mork/gorkanaut playable.
I'll give the gorkanaut a try. I've only managed to justify it through the Tellyporta + Ramming Speed combo which costs 4 CPs, 5 with the Superheavy Detachment and even then it was only for real casual fun games. Now it's much cheaper in terms of CPs to field a naut this way so it will certainly be part of my first list after CA's full release.
The morkanaut on the other hand I don't like it at all. I could only justify it if it gains the klan kulture so a Freebooterz one could fire decently while the gorkanaut can be big krumpaz at least. Also morkanaut can be big krumpaz of course but it's more shooting oriented than the gorkanaut and I'd like to give it a proper buff to its shooting.
Finally, The wagons as mentioned are still over priced and not worth much. We pay a premium for its transport capacity, but we really don't have much to put into them now so its mostly wasted points.
That's a problem that multiple vehicles with transport capacity have in the game, unfortunately. Rhino for example is super common in sisters lists but never even considered in SM ones. Both Rhino and BW are fairly priced for their stats (and their costs in currency ) but lacking synergies and purpose makes them look overpriced.
It makes no sense squig bombs should be used as a normal attack, and that rule semper mentioned makes more sense. RAI Sempers way is how i see it working.
Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's wrong
If anything, it makes your opinion wrong, no matter what it is. Seriously.
The rule quoted is specifically referring to rules done instead of shooting. Like guard smoke launchers. The squig rule doesn't even use the word instead.
If you feel like applying random rules to completely unrelated stuff, go all the way and apply the tau railgun profile to rokkits.
The rule tells you when to use a squig. It tells you what to do with it.
You cannot use the squig when you are not eligible to shoot, just like you cannot pile in when you are not eligible to fight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For more clarity - bomb squigs is a rule of an entire unit that is triggered whenever you select a bomb squig unit to shoot.
You then have the option to either release the squig or not.
This is not an attack. You are just resolving an ability, just like you roll for the Moar Dakka kustom job when you select a model with that to shoot.
Afterwards, all models from that unit can shoot as normal. No one is doing anything instead of shooting.
And now the important part - if you have no permission to select a unit to shoot (because it advanced or fell back), bomb squigs can't possible trigger unless you are doing something explicitly forbidden by the game rules.
Orks get some fairly significant hits to some of their most pushed units, but do see some cuts elsewhere. The Beastboss on Squigosar eats a 30-point increase, while Mozrog goes up 15, Scrapjets go up 10, Rukkatrukks got up 20, and Kill Rigs go up 20. That’s a big hit to buggy-heavy Freebooters lists that rely on taking a dozen buggies with support from a squigosaur and wartrike warboss, though they get a little help from Mek guns going down 5 points. Kommandos also saw an increase, going up 2 points per model (to 12).
To balance this a bit, Orks see several drops to the army’s less-used units, with drops to Meganobz (-5), Battlewagons (-15), Bonebreakas (-15), Flash Gitz (-2), Gunwagons (-15), Killa Kans (-5), and Lootas (-2). Hopefully these give Orks a few more options to consider and increase list variety for the faction, though the increase to Kommandos seems like rough timing with the release of the Octarius supplement.
The net result of this is that Goff builds are mostly fine, able to claw back big chunks of the increases on Rigs and buggies with Meganobz and Kans, but Freebooters are significantly reduced in power and will need to rethink their construction, though Wazbom Blastajets remain one of the game’s most insane datasheets.
Wings: These aren’t as generous as what Drukhari covens got, but the faction is probably still fine – but no longer needs the buggy unit limit from the Balance Dataslate, which I’m hoping will be removed at some point in the future.
If they keep that stupid rule for the buggies +10 for the Squigbuggy would have been enough.
Squigbosses got hit hard, but i`m surprised the Warboss on bike didn`t take a hit as well.
And for now Koptas and Warbikers are fine, but i can see them going up 5 each in the future.
Overall i think we got price increases where needed, but it was a bit too much, especially considering the additional nerfs from the buggy rule, the flyer restriction and the new mono faction rule. On top of that the new missions look a bit harder for our Speed Mob to score well, and it was allready not a good army going for 100 points.
But hey, we`ll have a new Balance Slate next month, maybe there will be some good stuff for us as well.
460 points for the gargantuan squiggoth? We are getting closer to where i want it to be for fun games.
I have used it before, its a fun model. But its still too expensive. I wouldnt pay more than 400 for it in general.
But we're nearing the semi correct amount of points.
Also the squiggoth going to 170 also starts nearing a point i could maybe want to use it. Not sure if for competitive or not, maybe id have to start out casually to see what happens.
My Wazboms tend to be in strategic reserve most of the time unless i can be certain they`ll survive me going second.
I liked to mix ES and Freebooters in Speed Mob, i guess both are still viable as Mono Speed mob.
With the new points i guess my favourite is Evil Sunz with 2 x 5 Koptas to keep them safe for 3 CP a turn and a barebones Wazbom for 190 in reserve.
You also get a bit more mileage out of the general flexibility of the EV over the pure dmg of FB.
Not sure if 1 detachment will be enough in the long run, as running a few solo buggies will make Engage a bit easier and you basically want 3 squads of Bikes every game on top of the Koptas.
I guess you could squeeze all units in 1 detachment and go for grind them down, but I´d rather have the flexibility of 3-5 more units.
Freebooters Speed Mob is still good though, 2 Wazboms will continue to perform and the Warboss on Bike with Badskull Banna is a neat ObSec trick.
Jidmah wrote: Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's wrong
If anything, it makes your opinion wrong, no matter what it is.
Seriously.
Disagree, and your opinion on whats right is in my opinion wrong So again, unless a tournament judge says otherwise I intend to use them exactly as the rare rule which allows me to ADVANCE AND USE AN ABILITY says I can
KW is still crap, I don't have a clue about squiggoths because I don't own/use them. Kustom Stompa...holy christ, The regular stompa is 675pts and not taken because its still crap and some muppet at GW thought "you know what? lets drop that kustom one from 800 to 750, that will fix it!"
Squiggoth is interesting as a gun platform BUT they should really have gotten the squig keyword. I mean it’s not competitive unless Tankbustas go down in price or lootas become more efficient shooting. But honestly what I want is both squiggoth and giant squiggoths to get squog keyword and then snakebite kultur to remove the str8 limit and then only effect Calvary, infantry and monster units… that would make ork snakebite lists decent.
Also mozrog went up 15pts as well (185) he was already bad before
(squigboss is mostly dead)
And
Flashgitz went down 2ppm (25)
I completely disagree with goonhammer orks took a big enough hit to go down in competitor rankings. Killakans are useless in a goff pressure list and meganobs are interesting but not competitive enough. The fact they think killakans who don’t benefit from kultur and provides very little pressure will do anything in a goff pressure list shows how little they understand orks. If you read thier articles you will see how only 1 of them ever plays orks and it’s not even one of his main armies. This is the ork players problem. Orks are a low A high B tier.. until we see drukari take an actual hit… (tau also are going to have an alpha strike problem). I don’t expect any fixes to ork rules in quarterly update.. I mean they should fix nob biker rules and squiggoth get squig keywords and orks get an infantry rule fix but that won’t happen.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: Wazboom seems to have a problem in my Speed Mob anyway.
On the one side, Tau comes to the table shooting him down ASAP.
On the other side I have to vote.
1. Either boost 2 jets via Freeboota strat (those, that will die soon)
2. Play ES and focus on bikers and Koptas. In such list 210p fragile wazboom without +1 to hit sounds pretty bad.
Heck, ES Speed Mob can be pressed in one single outrider detachement and have more CPs! Is it clever? No idea
This issue with wazbom it’s priced fine.. 230 is a lot for it..(you can do 210 without supa shootas) but the problem is wazbom provided one of the only hard hitting heavy weapon units for orks…. Without wazbom you are relying on a lot of str 5/6 ap-1/2 bs5 dam 1-2 shots to take down the current meta of durable -1dam high save units. You probably are better going evil sun and relying on alot of deffkoptas… plus the Dakkajet is a pretty efficient aircraft in speedmob… you can use the reroll 1 strat to make those 42+ shots to have more accuracy but you still need at least 1 wazbom.
Squiggoth is interesting as a gun platform BUT they should really have gotten the squig keyword. I mean it’s not competitive unless Tankbustas go down in price or lootas become more efficient shooting. But honestly what I want is both squiggoth and giant squiggoths to get squog keyword and then snakebite kultur to remove the str8 limit and then only effect Calvary, infantry and monster units… that would make ork snakebite lists decent.
Also mozrog went up 15pts as well (185) he was already bad before
(squigboss is mostly dead)
And
Flashgitz went down 2ppm (25)
I completely disagree with goonhammer orks took a big enough hit to go down in competitor rankings. Killakans are useless in a goff pressure list and meganobs are interesting but not competitive enough. The fact they think killakans who don’t benefit from kultur and provides very little pressure will do anything in a goff pressure list shows how little they understand orks. If you read thier articles you will see how only 1 of them ever plays orks and it’s not even one of his main armies. This is the ork players problem. Orks are a low A high B tier.. until we see drukari take an actual hit… (tau also are going to have an alpha strike problem). I don’t expect any fixes to ork rules in quarterly update.. I mean they should fix nob biker rules and squiggoth get squig keywords and orks get an infantry rule fix but that won’t happen.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: Wazboom seems to have a problem in my Speed Mob anyway.
On the one side, Tau comes to the table shooting him down ASAP.
On the other side I have to vote.
1. Either boost 2 jets via Freeboota strat (those, that will die soon)
2. Play ES and focus on bikers and Koptas. In such list 210p fragile wazboom without +1 to hit sounds pretty bad.
Heck, ES Speed Mob can be pressed in one single outrider detachement and have more CPs! Is it clever? No idea
This issue with wazbom it’s priced fine.. 230 is a lot for it..(you can do 210 without supa shootas) but the problem is wazbom provided one of the only hard hitting heavy weapon units for orks…. Without wazbom you are relying on a lot of str 5/6 ap-1/2 bs5 dam 1-2 shots to take down the current meta of durable -1dam high save units. You probably are better going evil sun and relying on alot of deffkoptas… plus the Dakkajet is a pretty efficient aircraft in speedmob… you can use the reroll 1 strat to make those 42+ shots to have more accuracy but you still need at least 1 wazbom.
Legit I laughed out loud when I saw that they increased the points for our Squigboss SC character too. I guess it makes sense from a consistency standpoint from the absurd amount of points that the Squigboss got increased by, but it's really silly when you look within the context of guys like Trajann Valoris going DOWN to points like 160 given how much utility he has in a Custodes army AND he's a good beatstick. Versus the Squigboss, which is really only getting by on his tankiness and okay CC output. But at his current points cost you're better off taking two generic foot warbosses.
I guess it's good they remembered Flash Gitz exist, but at a measly 2ppm decrease? Nowhere near what is needed to be considered viable, especially considering how devalued D2 weapons are right now in the meta, they're incredibly overcosted for what they do still.
Overall, you can tell again GW really just changed prices based on what they saw people taking and not based around an understanding of what's wrong/working within the codex. Pretty meh update overall, but I guess business as usual for us greenie ladz. We'll krump em all the same.
KW is still crap, I don't have a clue about squiggoths because I don't own/use them. Kustom Stompa...holy christ, The regular stompa is 675pts and not taken because its still crap and some muppet at GW thought "you know what? lets drop that kustom one from 800 to 750, that will fix it!"
I'd disagree on the KW being crap. It's certainly not the best unit in the book, and like most things in the book is overshadowed by buggies and koptas due to its cost, but it puts out a good amount of very long range firepower on a platform that's fairly bulky and fast enough that it can reposition and effectively threaten a good amount of the board at any given time.
I agree with the stompa assessment though. Completely unusable for anything other than narrative games or silly meme lists.
All wagons problems consist of 1 problem…
Nearly everything they can transport is junk!
I mean at 105 pts the battlewagon is a durable transport if there was 20 model unit I want to put in it! 20x boys are awful and 10x meganobs are bad too… there is a reason why we only see min squad trukk boys being the only varient that’s mildly useful with these models.
Also the kannonwagon is okay but it needs the actual wagon keyword… you might actually see it used in the speedmob army of renown list if they did that…
Seems that wagonz + 5 meganobz are gona become somewhat viable. They do look interesting now compared to trukk meganobz.
Too bad kommandoez went up in cost. I've just finished converting some boyz and now they cost 10 more. Oh, well. Still gona use them, I guess.
Btw, check them out:
Tomsug wrote: Another rule change in February? What? Seriously? This is insane. It means we cannot plan the lists and know the game for more than month?
Automatically Appended Next Post: But it makes sence. If you change the game every month, you don' t need to do the FAQ and solve the problem. Just make another change. In sich speed, nobody will be able to say, the rule is unbalanced. Clever…
Hopefully the relatively frequent points patches will let GW see where they need to amend their points changes as the edition goes on.
Technically they said the quarterly updates are rules balance patches and won’t contain point changes..
Point changes are still only done in chapter approved which is about 6+ months…
However I agree with the sentiment that they should just remove points from the codex and put the points online or just leave it in a matched play point sheet online in the faq/errata section. People already get the points for free in both the Gw app and BattleScribe so it’s not hiding anything and they still need to buy the codex/chapter approved for the rules. They can leave powerratings in the codex so that people who are learning to play can just use that at first until they get into more matched playstyle games. Putting points in the codex is now useless.. ffs custodes has points changes in chapter approved and they just got released last week.
Just played a 1500pt game. The killrig worked well as a bullet sponge but The beastboss was deadly but fragile and it was a draw.
I never got to charge my wurrtower as I got denied every time.
koooaei wrote: Seems that wagonz + 5 meganobz are gona become somewhat viable. They do look interesting now compared to trukk meganobz.
Too bad kommandoez went up in cost. I've just finished converting some boyz and now they cost 10 more. Oh, well. Still gona use them, I guess.
Btw, check them out:
Spoiler:
What does the wagon provide that’s better then trukk meganobs?
I mean a 5x trukk meganobs with a megaarmor warboss all trukk boys in a trukk is a good unit.
Something like below is better then a wagon.. w meganobs.
Tomsug wrote: Also don ´t agree Kannonwagon is a junk.
Semper consider just the pure weapon output but ignores the speed and range. It was pretty good B tier unit. With 20p sale even better.
Don ´ t even speak about inbuilt benefit of +1 BS.
BS 5+ affected by -1 to hit means 50% effectivity down
BS 4+ affected by -1 to hit means just 33% down
Its BS4+ on its main gun which means you can't buff it to 3+. Its a ranged unit ONLY and is paying for its transport capacity it will never use. yes its fast, yes it can reposition and shoot, but who gives a damn? It averages 3.5 hits at S8 -2AP 3dmg for 150pts (after points drop). That isn't impressive. For the same price I can take 3 KMKs which average 10.5 shots and 5.25 hits at S8 -3AP D6dmg. And the fact is, on short board, 36' is pretty damn good compared to what it used to be.
Well, to be honest with a 150pts-Kannonwagon, you are ALSO paying for T7 3+16W, and benefit the Klan Kultur (DF reroll, BA cover, etc...)
KMKs have better output which is good for alphastrike strategy but kill one (T5 5+ ) and the rest of the unit will run away.
If you're planning for more staying power, Kannonwagon is a good alternative, this is hardly a junk piece.
I don't know how I feel about this combo now. I've played it several times so far but only as part of a small goffs detachment in a mostly freebooterz army. Now we can't mix up klans and we can't even turn meganobz into big krumpaz if we want them to ride in wagons. So I might just run them as freebooterz, hoping that the warboss, the wagon or maybe a buggy or koptas kill something in close combat so those meganobz get +1 to hit in melee.
I don't think I'm ready to give up freebooterz speedwaaagh and turn into goffs waaagh.
Its BS4+ on its main gun which means you can't buff it to 3+. Its a ranged unit ONLY and is paying for its transport capacity it will never use. yes its fast, yes it can reposition and shoot, but who gives a damn? It averages 3.5 hits at S8 -2AP 3dmg for 150pts (after points drop). That isn't impressive. For the same price I can take 3 KMKs which average 10.5 shots and 5.25 hits at S8 -3AP D6dmg. And the fact is, on short board, 36' is pretty damn good compared to what it used to be.
I play them both and I really can't decide what's better. They're both pretty decent IMHO. At 150 points transport capacity for the wagon is basically free. We can't buff its BS to 3+ but we can use the freebooterz bonus to negate -1 to hit sources, which are pretty common, so the wagon could still fire at BS4+ towards anything.
Ok, I' m looking on to new missions and skip the point changes. MISSIONS shake the meta.
To win, one need more pourpose units for actions. And I don' speak about 1 model units. 3-5 models minimum. Optimaly infantry obsec troops. Or obsec bikers, but 3 squads are not enough I' m afraid.
What do we have that’s obsec, is it just bloodaxes?
I might have won yesterday if I had obsec but would have definitely missed the goff buffs so I don’t really want to convert to BA completely.
DoktaRoksta wrote: What do we have that’s obsec, is it just bloodaxes?
I might have won yesterday if I had obsec but would have definitely missed the goff buffs so I don’t really want to convert to BA completely.
Deathskulls infantry all gain obsecc as part of our klan kulture so I'm thinking with the points drop to MANZ a couple of small units with kombi skorchas and klaws might be worth trying as fairly tough (for us anyway ) obsecc units with decent overwatch, enough fightiness to be a deterrent to a lot of units wanting to take our objectives and in cover a 1+ base save. I have always liked MANZ and found the kombi skorcha / klaw option to be a decent one for drive by shooting and think it would be worth at least experimenting with as obsecc pieces.
DoktaRoksta wrote: What do we have that’s obsec, is it just bloodaxes?
I might have won yesterday if I had obsec but would have definitely missed the goff buffs so I don’t really want to convert to BA completely.
Freebooterz have a stratagem that gives obj sec to any infantry unit for one turn. I used it a few times on kommandos, although I don't think obj sec is really that important.
- All out TROOPS except grots are obsec = boyz and snaggaboyz
- Speed Mob BIKERS = obsec
- Orrible Gitz specialist GROTS = obsec
- FREEBOOTA INFANTRY via 1CP strategem can be obsec for a turn.
- DEATHSKULL INFANTRY = obsec
What is important to say is - on the other side - that ALL of the Primary objective “tasks” (or how to call it) can be done by ANY unit.
Just obsec units finish it on the end of the turn, other on the end of next Command phase. Or some other benefit like this…
Tomsug wrote: Ok, I' m looking on to new missions and skip the point changes. MISSIONS shake the meta.
To win, one need more pourpose units for actions. And I don' speak about 1 model units. 3-5 models minimum. Optimaly infantry obsec troops. Or obsec bikers, but 3 squads are not enough I' m afraid.
Yeah, 3-5 models is pretty big change. Now min squads of cheap chaff might not do actions that easy.
So the large number of units will be also. Like someone said there in reaction on my “speed mob in one detach” post - we' ll have a use for single buggy units to do this.
And I guess I can point the finger to one exact buggy with unbuilt -1 to hit, that could be pretty good at it.
Or single KBB sitting with his flamers ready to burn the charging units.
Or a single SJD trying to telyport himself to do the action somewhere.
Interesting…
Just pay 90p for unit doing the action is quite a lot.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another note - all primary tasks are written so, you can ascore about 3VP per turn. And NO MORE. So you need to score slowly every turn. Can' t wait for the last few turns to score a lot.
Generaly:
1. squigbuggies and other noLOS shooters are even more important now. Because you want to kill the potentily scoring units faster.
2. Sitting castles suffer. Game makes you move into the midfield. Or it seems like that.
3. Low number of units suffer.
4. Obsec infantry jetpacks rules. All the glory to the Deathskull Stormboyz. Can anybody built a list about it? Who knows…
Tomsug wrote: - All out TROOPS except grots are obsec = boyz and snaggaboyz
- Speed Mob BIKERS = obsec
- Orrible Gitz specialist GROTS = obsec
- FREEBOOTA INFANTRY via 1CP strategem can be obsec for a turn.
- DEATHSKULL INFANTRY = obsec
What is important to say is - on the other side - that ALL of the Primary objective “tasks” (or how to call it) can be done by ANY unit.
Just obsec units finish it on the end of the turn, other on the end of next Command phase. Or some other benefit like this…
So boyz are but Kommandos aren’t?
Ugh, better dig out my codex
Retrieve Nachmund Data is still great for us, besides the only downside it maxes out at 12 so no 100 point games.
But you might want to have one squad of of Stormboys and Kommandos with 6 models instead of 5, so you don`t get yourself in the situation to roll a 6 and fail the action.
Sadly only Troop units get the -1 on that roll, would have been cool if it was for ObSec units as well.
Our Bikers can do that one as well, but i don`t know if i can spare those. But it`s a good reason to switch from mobs of 3 to mobs of 5 in Speedmob, so you have a better chance to do the action. But i guess unlike the Stormboys the Bikers care about blast, so no mobs of 6 here - guess there will be some gambling left.
So the large number of units will be also. Like someone said there in reaction on my “speed mob in one detach” post - we' ll have a use for single buggy units to do this.
And I guess I can point the finger to one exact buggy with unbuilt -1 to hit, that could be pretty good at it.
Or single KBB sitting with his flamers ready to burn the charging units.
Or a single SJD trying to telyport himself to do the action somewhere.
Interesting…
Just pay 90p for unit doing the action is quite a lot.
Well those buggies can still shoot, its not like you just buy it for throwaway scoring. With the Speedmob 5++ they can tank a few hits as well.
Also i often end up with Engage being the best 3rd secondary as it scores 10+ very easy and is thus better than most of the kill secondaries in a lot of matchups.
I had many games where i ended up scoring 0 for stuff like Assassinate, Stranglehold or action based secondaries, but i think not even once i got 0 for engage.
Jidmah wrote: Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's wrong
If anything, it makes your opinion wrong, no matter what it is.
Seriously.
Disagree, and your opinion on whats right is in my opinion wrong So again, unless a tournament judge says otherwise I intend to use them exactly as the rare rule which allows me to ADVANCE AND USE AN ABILITY says I can
Well you can advance and use an ability.
But the specific ability i.e bomb squig requires you to select a target when you are making a shooting attack or performing overwatch.
If you are unable to to meet the requirements of the ability you cannot resolve it's effects.
Jidmah wrote: Considering how dirt cheap the bunka is for its defensive profile, I'm really thinking about bringing it now.
I'm just wondering what to but in it - 8+1 lootas seems like a decent option, with a SAG or badrukk for the last slot. Or maybe tank bustas?
much of the interest i have in the bunka is its ability to be tellyported in.
But that doesnt really help me as i would place it up the field (where theres literally no room due to the stupid fortification rules).
And i highly doubt if i deepstrike it in my own deployment zone that im allowed to start moving terrain. I would guess this only happens during deployment phase.
But.. it is only 75 points so maybe i should try and use the bunka too. Im just sad that the best way to use it (deepstrike) is still not possible.
I guess you could used it to remove annoying dense terrain (-1 to hit always hurts you more than your opponent) or stuff that blocks your buggies from moving. It's also quite tall, so when you deploy it on the edge of your deployment zone, you tend to have LoS to everything that's not obscured. The gun also isn't half bad, and the whole thing is just 80 points.
If you ever happen to play planet strike, make sure to bring it - it's one of the few good fortifications for that mode.
Deffskulls Big mek in mega armour with SHINY SHOOTA and teleport blasts
Can repair Anti tank Anti infantry Objective secured
Lootas or tabkbustas for company
MA is 2 slots though and tellyporta blasta is just 12". I prefer to have him drive around with the trukk boyz' trukk to force people to blow up the worthless trukk (3 battle scars so far ) instead of a buggy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blackie wrote: Freebooterz Tankbustas with nice protection and access to BS4+ (no need to move to get LoS) sounds good inside that thing.
Tankbustas are just 24" though - unless you are bad moons, you will never be able to shoot into the enemy deployment zone from your boss bunka.
Deffskulls
Big mek in mega armour with SHINY SHOOTA and teleport blasts
Can repair
Anti tank
Anti infantry
Objective secured
Lootas or tabkbustas for company
MA is 2 slots though and tellyporta blasta is just 12". I prefer to have him drive around with the trukk boyz' trukk to force people to blow up the worthless trukk (3 battle scars so far ) instead of a buggy.
Oh I forgot I also gave him the opportunist warlord trait as well so he can ignore look out sir at 12"
That's what the teleport blasta is for. To blast someones face off lol
But i have both a trukk and a bunker in my crusade army. I choose what to use based on the mission.
CUT OFF THE HEAD mission the bunker tactic worked well Vs Drukhari - bunker protected my HQs
In THE RELIC mission against craft world eldar.......seems obvious now but bunker was useless lol
Edit:
Yes. so this post i made is useless now. and i cant delete it. so here we are.
Lovely weather!
Ya it’s +140pts over the chapter approved which is a lot…
The LVO should be the last tournament where ork competitive lists aren’t nerfed.
I mean I’m sure we will see a few lists with meganobs and a few more tournament winning lists but I seriously doubt you see orks winning another major this edition. It will be an uphill battle for them to place too.
Many Waaaaagh ago, in the times when most of us were just a small funguses, in the times when even mighty Ghazkhul Thraka was a small metal ork, in another similar dirty noisy virtual bar, small Jidman and small Semper or who told us a story about the old waaaagh concept based on the target oversaturation switch.
Put just Vehicles on the table and focus your fire on anti-infantry weapons and kill them. In your Vehicles, there is an infantry. And after your Vehicles are destroid, your infantry jumps out. And there are no anti infantry weapons around.
And that is what Liam did. With a nice update, that this infantry sudenly has mighty plastic Ghazzy as support, because he finaly came to the other side of the table.
It is important to understand this. Because if one understand this, than he can update the list according to the new points and do it the same way.
Edit:
Yes. so this post i made is useless now. and i cant delete it. so here we are.
Lovely weather!
Ya it’s +140pts over the chapter approved which is a lot…
The LVO should be the last tournament where ork competitive lists aren’t nerfed.
I mean I’m sure we will see a few lists with meganobs and a few more tournament winning lists but I seriously doubt you see orks winning another major this edition. It will be an uphill battle for them to place too.
I don't think removing the weirdboy and 10 boyz would make that list much weaker actually.
Removing weirdboy and a unit of snaggas might work as well and would even save points for something else.
With two kill rigs the third unit of snaggas would be on foot anyway and not really that useful. That's 110 points just for the 10 man squad of snaggas. Then maybe switching one or two buggies with cheaper ones might do without removing the psyker. He still has one FA slot available: switching a squigbuggy for a KBB saves the remaining 30 points.
As for the point changes, skrapjets are still worth it hands down. Not so sure about squigbuggies - maybe 1 just in case but full squads are only good in tourney environments with large los blocks. Seems that more koptas re just better otherwise.
Not sure about killrigs - haven't run them, but it seems the point hike is not enough to really make anything else more appealing in their role. See l, they're characters and can charge after advance, making them an extremely dangerous thing for the opponent.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not sure about killa Kane. I have 6 but they do seem to be lacking speed for our mellee archetypes. And are quite bad at shooting for the price. Maybe if rokkits were 10 pts instead of 15.
I've run them with skorchas and with rokkits. Both options were underwhelming. I guess, it's ok to run them with big shoot as just to score midfield and support mellee later on in the game. They can sometimes chop things down but are unreliable in this regard.
koooaei wrote: As for the point changes, skrapjets are still worth it hands down. Not so sure about squigbuggies - maybe 1 just in case but full squads are only good in tourney environments with large los blocks. Seems that more koptas re just better otherwise.
Not sure about killrigs - haven't run them, but it seems the point hike is not enough to really make anything else more appealing in their role. See l, they're characters and can charge after advance, making them an extremely dangerous thing for the opponent.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not sure about killa Kane. I have 6 but they do seem to be lacking speed for our mellee archetypes. And are quite bad at shooting for the price.
Killa Kanz seem relegated to one 5 man squad with skorchas and coming down through tellyporta so they can use ramming speed on the turn they come in. Otherwise, I agree and think that they are still way to vulnerable to be taken footslogging.
Because he really should be quite a few points less
Ghaz has stayed at the same points unfortunately. He's really more around the 265-270 range IMO, if even. Depending on how much the new T'au codex skews the meta, he might not be terrible with his ability to cap wounds taken at 4 wounds a phase against them, but other than that he still has major issues getting across the board and getting stuck in properly.
Because he really should be quite a few points less
Ghaz has stayed at the same points unfortunately. He's really more around the 265-270 range IMO, if even. Depending on how much the new T'au codex skews the meta, he might not be terrible with his ability to cap wounds taken at 4 wounds a phase against them, but other than that he still has major issues getting across the board and getting stuck in properly.
except rumour is that tau has some weapons that ignore the max wounds per phase rule, to be fair they do actually need it as otehrwise some stuff would just run amuck for 4 turns.
Because he really should be quite a few points less
Ghaz has stayed at the same points unfortunately. He's really more around the 265-270 range IMO, if even. Depending on how much the new T'au codex skews the meta, he might not be terrible with his ability to cap wounds taken at 4 wounds a phase against them, but other than that he still has major issues getting across the board and getting stuck in properly.
except rumour is that tau has some weapons that ignore the max wounds per phase rule, to be fair they do actually need it as otehrwise some stuff would just run amuck for 4 turns.
Ugh, I really hope that isn't true. It's obnoxious enough when they basically ignore a core rule from invulns., if they also get to ignore specific bespoke rules like that too then they're going into Harlequin "feth the core rules" territory but in a much more annoying way where it's literally point and click. Also, the vast majority of units with that rule don't benefit from LoS, and not hyper competitively priced so I feel like them being a small counter to Tau is reasonable.
Ghazzy is a guy triggering the Great Waaaagh. That is his point. If you can use this synergy, you need them. Look at the Liams list. That is exactly what he does.
Jidmah wrote: Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it's wrong
If anything, it makes your opinion wrong, no matter what it is.
Seriously.
Disagree, and your opinion on whats right is in my opinion wrong So again, unless a tournament judge says otherwise I intend to use them exactly as the rare rule which allows me to ADVANCE AND USE AN ABILITY says I can
Well you can advance and use an ability.
But the specific ability i.e bomb squig requires you to select a target when you are making a shooting attack or performing overwatch.
If you are unable to to meet the requirements of the ability you cannot resolve it's effects.
Ready? "An eligible unit is one that has one more models equipped with ranged weapons" Yes, when you advance you are technically not "eligible" except that the rare rule in question literally states "Such abilities can only be used in your shooting phase, but can be used even if your unit has no ranged weapons, or if it advanced or fell back this turn"
According to the BRB you can not be chosen to shoot if your unit doesn't have ranged weapons, advanced or fell back. The rare rule literally spells out that this is not the case for abilities. So unless the rare rule only applies to units without guns as opposed to units with guns then yes you can use bomb squigs after advancing/falling back and unless a tournament judge says otherwise the rules appear pretty clear to me. And honestly, at this point, if a tournament judge ruled against this I would be shocked.
Tomsug wrote: Liam Hacket ruled 8-0 on Adelaide (126 players). As usually
Double Killrig + Trukkboyz Goff preasure list with Ghazzy, Makari and couple of buggies.
At what point are we just going to go ahead and start an individual stats/tournament calculation thread for Australia? Routinely their biggest events completely destroy the meta everywhere else in the world
Killa Kanz - we' ll see. If you look at the primary tasks in the new CA, a lot is about “feel the center of the battlefield and score”.
Kanz has a potential to do this. Not great, not so obvious. But they have. Mark Perry used them like this sometimes in November, so it' s not a stupid idea per se.
koooaei wrote: As for the point changes, skrapjets are still worth it hands down. Not so sure about squigbuggies - maybe 1 just in case but full squads are only good in tourney environments with large los blocks. Seems that more koptas re just better otherwise.
Not sure about killrigs - haven't run them, but it seems the point hike is not enough to really make anything else more appealing in their role. See l, they're characters and can charge after advance, making them an extremely dangerous thing for the opponent.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not sure about killa Kane. I have 6 but they do seem to be lacking speed for our mellee archetypes. And are quite bad at shooting for the price. Maybe if rokkits were 10 pts instead of 15.
I've run them with skorchas and with rokkits. Both options were underwhelming. I guess, it's ok to run them with big shoot as just to score midfield and support mellee later on in the game. They can sometimes chop things down but are unreliable in this regard.
I think a solo nitro squigs rukkatrukk is still worthwhile, non-LOS shooting with +1 to hit and wound is still really strong. It's decently fast, so it can keep itself in range and out of LOS, and it's decently durable for when it's caught in the open.
Definitely still more than worthy of a spot in the list in my opinion.
SemperMortis wrote: At what point are we just going to go ahead and start an individual stats/tournament calculation thread for Australia? Routinely their biggest events completely destroy the meta everywhere else in the world
List of Liam Hakets lists is enough… however, I was expected something like zilion of squigriders with support of SAGs or something like this, that nobody plays at all. Usual Liams style….
I think the Squigbuggy is still valid.
Most of our quality shooting has just 24" and we still have the problem of traffic jam, especially running a Speed Mob with lots of Buggies, Bikes and Koptas.
1 Nitro Squig Buggy is still the minimum I'm gonna run and my Speed Mob lists with 1 Outrider will still have 3 to get maximum Dakka in those 6 fast attack slots.
I have a small tournament upcoming and still need to decide what to run.
Either Alphork Goffs or single Detachment Evil Sunz with 3 Squigbuggies, 3 Scrapjets, 2 Wazboms, 2 x 5 Koptas (keeping them safe with Drive by & Attack outta da sun) and some Bikes and single Buggies.
Not sure if I should make it 2 squads of 5 bikes and leave the Dragsta home for Retrieve and better chances with good bitz in case I run into lists that give away too few points on secondaries.
I'm confident that list can pull of 3 wins, but since it's gonna be 3 games only that probably means a VP tiebreaker for the 3-0s...
I could go for 3 x 5 Bikes, 3 x 3 Koptas and all 5 Buggies but in smaller numbers instead to maximise VP for Engage & Retrieve in worst case scenarios, but that will cost me 3 CP and a bit of Dakka.
Maybe add da Boomer even?
It's shooting isn't that good but it would give me a unit to camp on an objective and add a little bit of fire power.
If you are going to play Alphork, just like every other really good competitive ork list, you need to build EXCLUSIVELY into it. And just as important as that, you need to play into it.
yes, you totally could just cap a center field objective turn 1 with your obsec trukkboyz, but you DONT DO THAT. Run those zoggin gitz straight down your opponents throat. The goal of this list, the entire point of this list is to force your opponent to spend the entire game in his own deployment zone and make him subject to your moves rather than the other way around. Most of my games are determined turn 1 with this list because of its overwhelming first turn threat potential. Don't get side tracked on objectives etc. You can grab those turn 2 and 3 with other units if you really need to.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Grotrebel - heh! You are thinking about the same problem and you have a totaly oposite conclusion! You take low unit count speedmob focused on killing.
I go totaly another way - high unit count focus more on scoring and hiding. Because my experience with 3 MSJ unit is, that they are either hidden, or dead. And in any case stucked in the jam.
Interesting is that this is the same tape of question like Semper with Goff preasure list answer. You have to know, what is it about and do just this one think. But I' m not sure about, what speedmob is about. I have a feeling, it is not killy enough… but maybe I' m wrong…
SemperMortis wrote: Ready? "An eligible unit is one that has one more models equipped with ranged weapons" Yes, when you advance you are technically not "eligible" except that the rare rule in question literally states "Such abilities can only be used in your shooting phase, but can be used even if your unit has no ranged weapons, or if it advanced or fell back this turn"
Semper, you are just cherry-picking sentences. You repeatedly not quoting the relevant rules in their entirety means that you are intentionally arguing in bad faith here.
The "Such abilities" in the rare rule absolutely does not apply to squigs because it is not a rule used instead of shooting and playing it that way is flat out cheating.
If you feel comfortable cheating like that and aren't caught, that's your business. But it puts your tournament achievements in a bad light, considering how you twist the rules to read whatever you feel like.
Edit:
Yes. so this post i made is useless now. and i cant delete it. so here we are.
Lovely weather!
Ya it’s +140pts over the chapter approved which is a lot…
The LVO should be the last tournament where ork competitive lists aren’t nerfed.
I mean I’m sure we will see a few lists with meganobs and a few more tournament winning lists but I seriously doubt you see orks winning another major this edition. It will be an uphill battle for them to place too.
I don't think removing the weirdboy and 10 boyz would make that list much weaker actually.
Even if you remove the trukk and boys… this list also gets hit by the mission changes hard to… because of the bring it down changes and killrigs being worth 3points now it’s now maxing out that secondary and it’s also harder to score engage as well if he uses that.. I still think orks are going to be A tier however he’s going to have a harder time winning with the chapter approved nerfs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
koooaei wrote: As for the point changes, skrapjets are still worth it hands down. Not so sure about squigbuggies - maybe 1 just in case but full squads are only good in tourney environments with large los blocks. Seems that more koptas re just better otherwise.
Not sure about killrigs - haven't run them, but it seems the point hike is not enough to really make anything else more appealing in their role. See l, they're characters and can charge after advance, making them an extremely dangerous thing for the opponent.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Not sure about killa Kane. I have 6 but they do seem to be lacking speed for our mellee archetypes. And are quite bad at shooting for the price. Maybe if rokkits were 10 pts instead of 15.
I've run them with skorchas and with rokkits. Both options were underwhelming. I guess, it's ok to run them with big shoot as just to score midfield and support mellee later on in the game. They can sometimes chop things down but are unreliable in this regard.
I don’t think the scrapjet is horrible, but I don’t think it’s worth 25% more (20pts) then a kustom boosta blasta.
Another notes to Speed Mob
1. Scrapjets (or any other) buggies in squads of 3 die much faster. You lost the “cover” of overkilling or “underkilling”. Opponent just focus all weapons and pufff. That sucks.
2. Squads of 3 are really a pain to move. Doesn' t matter for squigbuggies, but others matters.
3. It' s about Warbikers. Or I tend to have such feeling. Either you do something like 5+5+9 and take warlord with Fasta than yoooz and bully enemy with bikers charging T1, or you skip it, take Speed King instead to support fire and stay with 3x3 just to score.
SemperMortis wrote: Ready? "An eligible unit is one that has one more models equipped with ranged weapons" Yes, when you advance you are technically not "eligible" except that the rare rule in question literally states "Such abilities can only be used in your shooting phase, but can be used even if your unit has no ranged weapons, or if it advanced or fell back this turn"
Semper, you are just cherry-picking sentences. You repeatedly not quoting the relevant rules in their entirety means that you are intentionally arguing in bad faith here.
The "Such abilities" in the rare rule absolutely does not apply to squigs because it is not a rule used instead of shooting and playing it that way is flat out cheating.
If you feel comfortable cheating like that and aren't caught, that's your business. But it puts your tournament achievements in a bad light, considering how you twist the rules to read whatever you feel like.
Full rules
Rules: You have to select a unit to shoot with. Units without guns are NOT ELIGIBLE to shoot. Units which have advanced or fallen back ARE NOT ELIGIBLE TO SHOOT!
Rare Rule: You are now ELIGIBLE TO BE SELECTED TO SHOOT even without guns and even if you ADVANCED THAT TURN for purposes of using an ability. Bomb squigs are wargear that have an ability. IE they go boom.
Bomb Squig rule: This is NOT a shooting attack, it does not make a hit/wound roll it merely rolls a D6 and on a 2+ or a 3+ depending on what its targeting, it inflicts D3 mortal wounds.
There is the rules ENTIRELY so you can't make an argument of "Cherry Picking" rules. They literally spell out you can use abilities that function in the shooting phase even if you aren't eligible to be chosen that phase, IE no guns and/or advanced and/or fell back.
I have no idea how you are getting this idea that you can't use a bomb squig because the unit advanced. its an ability which the rare rule covers entirely.
Yeah it's true that mobs of 3 are more vulnerable but as you said for squigbuggies it's mostly not relevant.
The only other buggy I really want to have 3 of is the Scrapjet.
I have been running that mob a lot and most of the time moving was ok and the occasional overkill I could gamble for is less important than his solid dakka. (For me at least, the Tau codex might change that though.)
Overall its basically a choice between the 3 extra CP or the flexibility of 12 FA slots.
Maybe the balance slate next month will change things with something like the specialist detachments capping out at 4-5, in which case Speed Mob will probably be always 2 outrider detachments.
I mean, there won't be more point changes, I guess no mission upgrades after the new CA as well so I don't know what else they could do with that balance slate. Besides that the detachments needed a rework for quite some time now.
About your take on what units to take with Speed Mob, I agree. One detachment really limits the choices unless you want to go for multiple Gunwagons (lol).
But Speed Mob really relies on a few expensive strategems (Ramming Speed, attack outta sun, More Dakka, More Gits over ere, crashing through, drive by dakka,...)
Most of the games I found 2 turns of enough CP for the most important stuff to be enough, which is more or less exactly those 3 extra CP to keep it going.
For now my favourites are:
Freebooters for buffing two Wazboms and having the Obsec / Obsec stealing warboss.
Evil Sunz to keep 2 squads of 5 Koptas safe and make use of Drive by dakka.
Overall I prefer ES right now.
BA might be a solid option if you combine Finkin cap and extra kunnin for lots of extra CP and the option for taktikal awareness.
Gonna give it a spin, might work well with multiple "MSU" squads.
Btw I just had I test game against BT with the list above and it went quite good.
BT went first and shot 1 Wazbom down to 1 wound.
After that I killed his Apo, 3 attack bikes and lots of infantry.
His second turn the VanVets charged my Scrapjets and failed to kill 1, but I lost both Wazboms.
My second turn I killed everything besides 2 characters and a hand full of Marines, and we called it a day since he would have been tabled turn 3.
Koptas did lots of damage as did my 9 warbikers and the Scrapjets und Squigbuggies, but the down of War deployment and no real threats turn 1 made it fairly easy for me.
Still I'm gonna think about going for a more flexible list as that one will have a hard time against first turn charges, DE in general and with scoring good if I have a matchup with tight scoring.
3 x 3 Bikes, 3 x 3 Koptas und 5 different Buggies + 2 fliers sounds quite attractive as well.
I only have 18 Bikes, so I need to figure out if 3 x 5 is an option or even 1 mob of 9.
The dakka and melee thread of those 9 dudes is quite good, although I think my 2 shooting phases with those 9 took the same amount of time as did the rest of my shooting.
It is funny. Speed Mob AoR is the experiment. Experiment GW made to proof, whether is it fun to bulding a list with very restricted scale of the options.
Well, obviously it is. For some time…
Interesting. Warhammer 11th edition will looks like that I guess. Such “complicated” armies like our AoR will be the standard armies and just the speed of changes - every 6 months or less - will keep us alive. Plus Disney animations.
ES are the obvious choice right now.
But you are right, we do not have enough CPs. I solved it previosly via BA strategem and relict that both together gave me about 7 CP back.
So let' s say we make a list of BA with Extra Kunnnin and Finking Cap and fit it in one outrider = you have 10 CP base (or even 12!) + about 7CP on the top.
That is 1CP for ES strategem and 2-1=1CP for attak out o da sun = 2CP for about 3 turns = 6 CP down.
You have another aprox 18-6-=12 + 5 for turns = 17CP
Let' s say:
2 x ramming speed = 4
2 x cloud of smoke = 4
2 x crashing thr = 2
2 x command reroll = 2
————————————
Total:…………………12
5 left to use on fallback and shoot, chaaaaarge, ork is never beaten and others.
That sounds like a plan.
But does it worth it?
Automatically Appended Next Post: The key question is - when comes the moment when the discussion about details of the perfect list will have a significantly smaller affect to the game than the abilities of each player.
I don’t think the scrapjet is horrible, but I don’t think it’s worth 25% more (20pts) then a kustom boosta blasta.
They are worth it - especially with goff culture, that I tend to run lately, that buffs their allready decent mellee. Boosta blastas can't boast 15 s9 ap2 d3 attacks with exploding 6s backed up by 3d3 (triggered on 4+) mw.
I ran 2x8 and 1x9 warbikers at the Bolton waaaagh tournament and I gotta say rolling 96+ dice is both fun and a pain especially on a clock. I'm looking at dropping my nitro squig buggy and one bike to make my KBB a squad of 3. I'm going to change my freeboota and evil sunz mix into pure evil sunz but I'm going to try and fit all the fast attacks into one detachment and take a wartrike in an auxiliary support detachment.
I think the wartrike is now at least on par with the warboss on bike as he can still get engage on his own with the new secondaries (as he's a vehicle)
I
Grotrebel wrote: I think the Squigbuggy is still valid. Most of our quality shooting has just 24" and we still have the problem of traffic jam, especially running a Speed Mob with lots of Buggies, Bikes and Koptas.
1 Nitro Squig Buggy is still the minimum I'm gonna run and my Speed Mob lists with 1 Outrider will still have 3 to get maximum Dakka in those 6 fast attack slots.
I have a small tournament upcoming and still need to decide what to run.
Either Alphork Goffs or single Detachment Evil Sunz with 3 Squigbuggies, 3 Scrapjets, 2 Wazboms, 2 x 5 Koptas (keeping them safe with Drive by & Attack outta da sun) and some Bikes and single Buggies.
Not sure if I should make it 2 squads of 5 bikes and leave the Dragsta home for Retrieve and better chances with good bitz in case I run into lists that give away too few points on secondaries.
I'm confident that list can pull of 3 wins, but since it's gonna be 3 games only that probably means a VP tiebreaker for the 3-0s...
I could go for 3 x 5 Bikes, 3 x 3 Koptas and all 5 Buggies but in smaller numbers instead to maximise VP for Engage & Retrieve in worst case scenarios, but that will cost me 3 CP and a bit of Dakka. Maybe add da Boomer even? It's shooting isn't that good but it would give me a unit to camp on an objective and add a little bit of fire power.
Opinions?
how will you keep both 2x5 deffkoptas safe when you can only use the stratagem on one of them at a time?
You use attack outa da sun on one of them and Drive by dakka on the other one.
Also (thats how I play it already) if it gets FAQ'd that you can't use the attack out da sun strat on units that arrived this turn, you can switch with both squads and use the strat always on the unit that has been on the table already.
Other armies with similar strats have been FAQd so it doesn't work that way, I guess it's just a matter of time until they catch up with those sneaky Koptas.
CaptainO wrote: I ran 2x8 and 1x9 warbikers at the Bolton waaaagh tournament and I gotta say rolling 96+ dice is both fun and a pain especially on a clock. I'm looking at dropping my nitro squig buggy and one bike to make my KBB a squad of 3. I'm going to change my freeboota and evil sunz mix into pure evil sunz but I'm going to try and fit all the fast attacks into one detachment and take a wartrike in an auxiliary support detachment.
I think the wartrike is now at least on par with the warboss on bike as he can still get engage on his own with the new secondaries (as he's a vehicle)
I
Lol I literally never thought about using an auxiliary detachment in speedmob.
Might be cool to get a additional WL trait if you want to safe that 1 CP over an outrider or squeeze in a 7th FA slot.
It's just one CP but sometimes it can make the difference.
I don’t think the scrapjet is horrible, but I don’t think it’s worth 25% more (20pts) then a kustom boosta blasta.
They are worth it - especially with goff culture, that I tend to run lately, that buffs their allready decent mellee. Boosta blastas can't boast 15 s9 ap2 d3 attacks with exploding 6s backed up by 3d3 (triggered on 4+) mw.
They both have spiked ram ability so the MW thing is a wash and maybe the scrapjet is better as goff because he has a better melee profile… it’s just a pretty big point bump between the 2 units.
Grotrebel wrote: You use attack outa da sun on one of them and Drive by dakka on the other one.
Also (thats how I play it already) if it gets FAQ'd that you can't use the attack out da sun strat on units that arrived this turn, you can switch with both squads and use the strat always on the unit that has been on the table already.
Other armies with similar strats have been FAQd so it doesn't work that way, I guess it's just a matter of time until they catch up with those sneaky Koptas.
CaptainO wrote: I ran 2x8 and 1x9 warbikers at the Bolton waaaagh tournament and I gotta say rolling 96+ dice is both fun and a pain especially on a clock. I'm looking at dropping my nitro squig buggy and one bike to make my KBB a squad of 3. I'm going to change my freeboota and evil sunz mix into pure evil sunz but I'm going to try and fit all the fast attacks into one detachment and take a wartrike in an auxiliary support detachment.
I think the wartrike is now at least on par with the warboss on bike as he can still get engage on his own with the new secondaries (as he's a vehicle)
I
Lol I literally never thought about using an auxiliary detachment in speedmob.
Might be cool to get a additional WL trait if you want to safe that 1 CP over an outrider or squeeze in a 7th FA slot.
It's just one CP but sometimes it can make the difference.
Ya the speed mob is super CP intensive. An extra CP or two could go a long way. So much so that I'm almost considering not taking a second relic (which would be the KILLa klaw) which would mean I start with 9 CP. The crashing through strat is excellent. I normally use it on my 5 man squads of deffkoptas (or faster than yoos bikes T1)but post chapter approved I'm really interested in using it on a 3 man squad of pyromaniac KBBs.
Hey guys, slow down withthe Specialist detachements!
1. You can' t use it on the unit in Aux supp detach.
2. You lost the Clan keyword, so your warlord cannot be a specialist (I see wartrike is a big boss, not warlord, but I saw such error somewhere else)
3. Because you lost the Clan keyword, you cannot use Driven by Dakka strategem and potentialy Fasta then yooz (valid for bikers only).
What is a good point however is, that you can you a Flyboyz on the planes for better save. They don' t care about ES rules.
SemperMortis wrote: Rare Rule: You are now ELIGIBLE TO BE SELECTED TO SHOOT even without guns and even if you ADVANCED THAT TURN for purposes of using an ability. Bomb squigs are wargear that have an ability. IE they go boom.
Aaaand you did again. This is completely wrong, every single word of it.
What the rule you are continuously trying to misrepresent actually says is this:
NON-SHOOTING ABILITIES Some models and units have abilities that can be used instead of shooting with that model or unit.
Squigs are NOT an ability you can use INSTEAD OF SHOOTING.
This is how an ability used INSTEAD OF SHOOTING looks like: Smoke Launchers: Once per battle, instead of shooting in your Shooting phase, this model can use its smoke launchers. Until the start of your next Shooting phase, when resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon against this model, subtract 1 from the hit roll. Note how that rule does not require you to select the unit to shoot? How it does not require it to be eligible to shoot?
INSTEAD OF SHOOTING means that you don't get to shoot. An ability like bomb squigs that allows you both use it and still shoot is NEVER and ability that is used INSTEAD OF SHOOTING.
Such abilities can only be used in your Shooting phase, but can be used even if your unit has no ranged weapons, or if it Advanced or Fell Back this turn, and such abilities can be used even while the unit is within Engagement Range of any enemy units.
Squigs are not SUCH [an] ABILITY, as they are NOT an ability done INSTEAD OF SHOOTING. Therefore the rule does NOT apply.
It also does NOT make a unit eligible to shot for any purpose, even if does have an ability used instead of shooting. You made that part up. A rule has to explicitly say that a unit is eligible to shoot despite advancing (like assault weapons do!), otherwise you do not have permission to select that unit to shot, and thus never get the chance to use a bomb squig.
And once more from the summary:
- Abilities used ‘instead of shooting’ can be used in your Shooting phase. - Such abilities can be used even if unit Advanced, Fell Back or is in Engagement Range of enemy.
While not actual rules, the quotes here imply that it refers that that very specific wording.
Unless you provide a coherent argument USING THE ACTUAL RULES, and not a misleading summary you pulled out of nowhere, proving that bomb squigs work the same as 8th edition smoke launchers, I refuse to continue to discuss it.
You continuously failing to properly quote this rule also shows some clear intention behind it. I would have expected better from you
I don’t think the scrapjet is horrible, but I don’t think it’s worth 25% more (20pts) then a kustom boosta blasta.
They are worth it - especially with goff culture, that I tend to run lately, that buffs their allready decent mellee. Boosta blastas can't boast 15 s9 ap2 d3 attacks with exploding 6s backed up by 3d3 (triggered on 4+) mw.
They both have spiked ram ability so the MW thing is a wash and maybe the scrapjet is better as goff because he has a better melee profile… it’s just a pretty big point bump between the 2 units.
I think it's worth it. Scrapjets combine ranged anti infantry, ranged anti tank and decent melee into one profile. KBB is ranged anti light vehicles/elites plus anti infantry into very close range and some melee. The scrapjets fires 30ish shots during the speedwaaagh but Freebooterz trait doesn't enhance the burna exhausts, which autohits, so the KBB benefits very little from it compared to the scrapjet, and +1 to hit to that kind of firepower is a massive bonus; the KBB in general doesn't do much until it gets in very close range. Rokkits from the scrapjets seems much better than the KBB's main gun, so are the 20-22 big shoota shots (half of them always +1 to hit) compared to the flamers. 20 points gap seems about right to me.
I usually don't do max squads and I'm taking both kind of buggies though. Typically a squadron 2 scrapjets and a lone KBB.
Tomsug wrote: Hey guys, slow down withthe Specialist detachements!
1. You can' t use it on the unit in Aux supp detach.
2. You lost the Clan keyword, so your warlord cannot be a specialist (I see wartrike is a big boss, not warlord, but I saw such error somewhere else)
3. Because you lost the Clan keyword, you cannot use Driven by Dakka strategem and potentialy Fasta then yooz (valid for bikers only).
What is a good point however is, that you can you a Flyboyz on the planes for better save. They don' t care about ES rules.
Not sure thats All correct.
1. You mean the adrenaline Junkies rule? I guess that part is correct as you only loose detachment abilities and (technically) only that one is listed as ability. But that's actually not that bad on the wartrike as it already has a 5++ and he has assault weapons, so those could still hit on a 6 (or autohit with the flamer). He will loose the bonus attack and can't start actions after advancing.
2. & 3.You don't loose the clan keyword in a aux detachment, just the detachment abilities. Not sure if there is any rule where it actually matters, as he will still loose the access to strats and so on.
(At least I think it's that way. I'm sure you loose Clan culture but I don't know a 100% about strats.)
But you should still get the Speed Mob Keyword and have access to the traits and in case of the warboss on bike gain ObSec.
Overall its a bit confusing as there is no real information especially on the AoRs and what parts are really considered detachment abilities.
@Wazbom: Yeah I have been running them as Flyboys as well, but if I would take a Boomer for whatever reason I'd prefer to give him Boom Boys for the extra AP.
@Bombsquig: Maybe the discussion should be moved to YMDC to keep this thread clean? I'm with Jidmah on that one and have build 3 burna Kommandos anyway.
1. No, I mean you cannot have Madboy Wartrike in Aux supp detachement.
2.+3. Ehhh… no. Bloody GW with their stupid terminology. You speak about Speed Mob AoR. And you are right.
But I speak about Specialist Mobs like Trukkboyz, Pyromaniacs etc.
You are ok with Speed Mob to use CLAN strategems.
But you are NOT OK to use such strategems (or other CLAN locked abilities) on Boomboyz Deffkoptas, Madboy Wartrike, Pyromiacs KBBs etc.
SemperMortis wrote: Ready? "An eligible unit is one that has one more models equipped with ranged weapons" Yes, when you advance you are technically not "eligible" except that the rare rule in question literally states "Such abilities can only be used in your shooting phase, but can be used even if your unit has no ranged weapons, or if it advanced or fell back this turn"
Semper, you are just cherry-picking sentences. You repeatedly not quoting the relevant rules in their entirety means that you are intentionally arguing in bad faith here.
The "Such abilities" in the rare rule absolutely does not apply to squigs because it is not a rule used instead of shooting and playing it that way is flat out cheating.
If you feel comfortable cheating like that and aren't caught, that's your business. But it puts your tournament achievements in a bad light, considering how you twist the rules to read whatever you feel like.
I don't think it was meant for that.
Ork codex is recent and that rare rule which was probably intended of 8th edition abilities.
I would say if they wanted it to be used when not shooting they would have said so directly in the squig bomb ability, Ork codex is only a few months old after all.
But that rare rule was released in 2020
Ork Codex rules as written sets precedence.
In general you go with new more recent rules over old rules
Aaah I see.
Well it's gonna be a rare case where you want to play an outrider and 1 auxiliary anyway.
Since I have a little over two weeks left for list deadline I'm gonna get a few more test games.
I hope I can get a game against Tau as well, because we will have at least 2 Tau players and I have no idea how Speed Mob will do against them.
Gonna have another test game tomorrow, this time I'll try BA Speed mob.
That's my idea so far:
Idea was to put both fliers and maybe the Boosta Blasta in strategic reserve for free with I've got a plan lads.
With 5 bonus CP and finkin cap that's about 14-15 CP to play with.
Not sure about the 55 points invested in Custom Jobs. I really like the extra movement on the Dragsta for Engage or objective grabbing out of somewhere hidden.
The other CJ are just for a little bit of extra damage on my units.
Alternative would be to leave the boosta blasta and some custom jobs to make the Dakka Jet another Wazbom.
That would mean a little more antitank but a bit less flexibility.
I don't really see a point in adding 2-3 more bikes. Either 3 x 3 or 3 x 5 or even more.
Otherwise if I skip all custom jobs I could take 2 Wazboms as well if I run both without KFF and Supa shootas.
It's the main guns you want anyway but you really need to kill all treads by turn 2 then.
I could add more bikers as well as backup for better chances to retrieve Nachmund data, but that's 100+ points as well.
Right now that list has only those secondary options:
Engage
Assassination or Bring it Down
No Prisoners or To the last or Grind them down.
So in some matches scoring above 80-90 will be a tough nut to crack.
On the other hand Retrieve can easily be denied by a good opponent as well if he just kills a few Bikes of each squad.
I think the ES + 2 x koptas you can hide via Driven by Dakka and Attack out o da sun that are TTL units is a must for Speed Mob. You need to score. And without TTL you have no plan and a play a gamble with pretty high chance to have no third secondary.
I' m not sure about Jets in reserves. Thier power is in shooting soon. If you put them into the reserves and go second, opponent shoots on you for 2 turns already…
The dilema is also wazboom vs. Dakkajet. If you make the calculations, there is a lot of surprising targets that suffer the +/- same by 2 dakkajets than by single wazboom. Not just the infantry. All invu, wounding always on 4+, damage reduction and overkill by high random dmg weapons cuts the wazbooms real dmg output. Try calculate the Mortarion or Necron Barques.
And if you fly 2 dakkajets, just 240p is hanging in the air. Same number of wounds, same T, same -1 to hit. Just the 5++ is missing.
That is about 200p less than 2 wazbooms. That is 4 koptas or 2 buggies more on the table.
I still like the gamble with 2 wazbooms slightly more, because if they hit, they hit like brick. But that hangs 21% of my army into the air…
Good point with TTL. ES with 2 x 5 Koptas und 3 Squigbuggies has a solid chance for 15 VP.
In my BA list it would be the Scrapjets as well.
That leaves Engage + Assassinate or bring it down which should be enough for a potential 90+ scoring most games. That's one argument for the Dakkajet as well, he has proven more reliable for sneaky asassination fly bys. More than once the Wazbom rolled below average and failed with the opponent rolling hot for invulns.
About fliers in reserve, that's heavily depending on the opponents anti tank range.
If I have a good chance to keep them alive turn 1 I always go for it.
But they die quite fast and tend to get a lot of hate by my regular opponents. Loosing about 450 points turn one is NOT cool.
I think it depends on the Clan. Freebooters Speed Mob 2 Wazboms are an auto-take.
ES and BA can do both.
Good thing we just have 2 relevant fliers. Imagine the headache we would have 4 actual valid options to choose from.
In my Speed mob I don' t bet on any “kill stuff” secondaries. Good players I face do not offer me the right targets regularly.
My sweet spot is -
- TTL
- strangelhold/engage/BEHIND ENEMY LINES!!
- good bitz (done by bikers)
Good Bitz and Behind have a very solid VP per turn ration so I can focus on killing in T1 and T2.
If someone offers me a good killing secondary, I take it of course
I have a bad experience with TTL and scrapjets. They are so obvious target and so huge unit impossible to hide, they die almost always no later than T3. And that is ok for me. Scrapjets are the front fighters. But front fighters cannot be the TTL.
Yeah the games are a lot faster and still fun. To be honest it's a lot less interaction as melee heavy alphorks or similar / mixed stuff but it's still about making the right call the right time.
Have been brutally wiped as well with Speed Mob, 2-3 mistakes can be devastating as it could mean to loose lots of points and dakka fast.
@Tomsug: Behind enemy lines? Sounds like balls of steel unless it's dawn of war like deployment and not much fast stuff on the opponents side.^^
And it kinda feels like a "win harder if you already winning" secondary.
Good bits is a great secondary on the right map though.
Behind Enemy Lines and Teleport Homers. That means balls of steel
But if the opponent has a low unit count and map has just one home objective, than Behind and SOMETHING ELSE THAN HOMERS is a great opportunity for your koptas etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I' m looking on to LVO player manual and there are the typical tables…
I'm looking to grow my Speed Freeks collection and I'm hoping you folks can recommend me some buggies.
The core of my army is a Warboss on Warbike, Bikers, Bonebreaka's and Deff Koptas. I'm not looking for the best of the best just something that is fun to use and hopefully draw fire away so my deff rollas can run over the enemy unhindered.
I currently have a Shokkjump Dragsta which I enjoy and am considering getting more. I've also had my eye on the Boomdakka snazzwagon which is a really great looking model.
The Red Hobbit wrote: I'm looking to grow my Speed Freeks collection and I'm hoping you folks can recommend me some buggies.
The core of my army is a Warboss on Warbike, Bikers, Bonebreaka's and Deff Koptas. I'm not looking for the best of the best just something that is fun to use and hopefully draw fire away so my deff rollas can run over the enemy unhindered.
I currently have a Shokkjump Dragsta which I enjoy and am considering getting more. I've also had my eye on the Boomdakka snazzwagon which is a really great looking model.
Currently the go to buggy of all trades is the Megatrakk Scrapjet. Even after the slight points hike and balance update restriction, they're still very worth their weight in points given that they have their inbuilt mortal wounds ability after finishing a charge, their flat 3 damage ranged weapon (something sorely needed in the current meta with -1D abilities everywhere) and they also aren't pushovers in melee either.
The other one you might want to consider is one Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy, as it offers a unique niche that Ork players don't really have otherwise in our army, which is out of LoS shooting. Hitting on 4+ with the main weapon is pretty big and having one with the Nitro Squigs Kustom Job basically gives it carte blanche to hunt down and kill objective monkey units hiding behind terrain or chipping off the wounds from elite infantry units and even vehicles if you need to really take off a few wounds left from a transport.
After that, would come the Shokkjump Dragsta as you mentioned, followed by the Kustom Boosta Blasta and the Boomdakka Snazzwagon. I'm personally more partial to the KBB myself, mainly because it's another source of mortal wounds and the flamers are very useful, IMO to deal with infantry like Eldar that are hard to hit during the shooting phase.
Wow, I missed that on my first read through but there's a lot of MW potential on the Spiked Ram. Seems like that would be a better fit alone side the bonebreakas than the Snazzwagon.
While I like the KBB model better I think the Scrapjet but might a better fit for the army.
Scrapjet is the most usefull buggy for 2 years already or how long. On the other side, Snazzwagon was never a choice.
I don' t know how fast you paint and in what squads (I do buggies in 3 together). So I don' t know, how much time are you gonna spent by painting. But todays tips could be irelevant pretty soon. For example some nerf on Scrapjet and boost on Snazzwagon. I dunno…
If you have no huge competitivy potential, follow the rule of cool. Paint what buggy you like. Non is a total junk. And they are a new models, GW will support them in the game for next couple of years…
Just convert! They are so cool go be converted, it' s a waste of plastic to glue them as they come in the box!
The Red Hobbit wrote: I'm looking to grow my Speed Freeks collection and I'm hoping you folks can recommend me some buggies.
The core of my army is a Warboss on Warbike, Bikers, Bonebreaka's and Deff Koptas. I'm not looking for the best of the best just something that is fun to use and hopefully draw fire away so my deff rollas can run over the enemy unhindered.
I currently have a Shokkjump Dragsta which I enjoy and am considering getting more. I've also had my eye on the Boomdakka snazzwagon which is a really great looking model.
All of the buggies are good realistically speaking.
My personal opinions:
Megatrakk Scrapjet - Very good anti-armour firepower from the rokkits, which even adds to the respectable anti-chaff of the twin Big Shootas due to Blast. It also has a decent melee profile and mortal wound output on the charge thanks to the nose drill and spiked ram. Very powerful all-rounder even after the points bump, and it's live in a number of different phases. Good to run at any unit size.
Rukkatrukk Squigbuggy - Great anti-chaff and anti-MEQ firepower, and it doesn't need line of sight. The native +1 to hit makes it very reliable, and the +1 to wound from Nitro Squigs makes it great against everything. It has some situational mortal wound output and a respectable melee profile, however both of these are not likely to come up too often as it is best used to babysit the backfield and shell small units to trigger the Freeboota +1 or to strip wounds from big threats. Main downside is the cost, being the most expensive buggy, however it is also the best single buggy in a vacuum in my opinion. Use either 1 with Nitro Squigs or 3 as an artillery park.
Boomdakka Snazzwagon - Strong anti-chaff firepower with a smattering of anti-MEQ potential. Generally wants to sit in the midfield clearing screens, occupying the board space between the Rukkatrukks and the Scrapjets. Despite this it is capable in melee because of the in-combat shooting from the Mek Speshul and Big Shoota. Suffers somewhat due to the lack of a built in +1 to hit with the Mek Speshul and gets relegated to chip damage when their isn't anything soft to shoot at. More Dakka or Souped Up Speshul are viable choices, but only if you have nothing else to spend the points on. Generally you will be running 1 of this if any at all, however I like 2 in my list as a personal preference.
Kustom Boosta Blasta - Decent all-rounder, however my least favourite buggy. It's also the cheapest of the buggies. It sports decent anti-MEQ and great anti-chaff firepower, albeit the anti-chaff is very short ranged. It also has good mortal wound potential to make up for the lack of a real melee profile (outside of the burna exhausts, which are great because they auto-hit). Generally wants to be used to race in and clear a screen before trying to ram something a bit more valuable off of the board. I haven't used this too much, however I've found it works well as a 1 model unit.
Shokkjump Dragsta - Great anti-armour firepower and a decent melee profile, but will flounder against mass-infantry lists. Incredibly maneuverable due to a 14" move AND a built in deep strike mechanic. It fires at a whopping BS3+ with its Shokk Rifle, so it's firepower is very reliable. Best used to hunt armour and then jump back behind cover with Shokk Tunnel, or to get into the enemies backfield to snipe long range armour and score on Behind Enemy Lines or Engage On All Fronts. Was let down by the new codex though, as using Shokk Tunnel with more than 1 can be very frustrating or downright impossible depending on the terrain on the board. Use 1 if you want it to jump around the board, but can be used in larger units of terrain is favourable or you forgo jumping completely.
TL;DR
All the buggies are good, but the Scrapjet and the Squigbuggy are the standout choices. Ultimately, it will depend on your meta what you choose for your other buggies and how many of each. Proxy each for a few games and see what you like the feel of.
KBB used to a be great distraction unit when they could turn their exhausts into heavy flamer by stratagem. Now being the cheapest buggies they still have their purpose but they're certainly not amazing. Snazzwagons are a bit better in a vacuum I think but they lack a real purpose in the army, more than KBBs, as for the same job we have better much units like warbikes and dakkajets.
KBBs are fine. Cheap, fast, spiked ram and flamer againts -1 to hit eldars of various types and long range autocannon. This gives you different weapons than the rest of the army. Flexibility.
Snazzwagon hitting on 5+ With more or less just “big shootas” suffers terribly by -1 to hit = reduce his shooting to 50%
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wazboom vs Dakkajet
With the new Tau damage666 weapons and spaming of damage reduction (wracks spam by Mani Cheema etc) I have a feeling, that Dakkajets will be on the rise…
Kbbs also are a bit better in speedmob
A unit of 2 or 3 is also great for the crashing through strat
Plus a unit of 2-3 makes good use of the reroll 1 strat by becoming reroll 1 and 2s. Although that strat is also good on a Dakkajet.
They can also be a pyro specialist without any problems in a speedmob.
I'm a pretty fast painter but nowhere near high quality. I've also got a 5month old so my time to paint is limited and also at about 3AM after he falls back asleep. I'm not too worried about which units stays in the meta too long, mostly I'm looking for buggies that are very fun to use. I'm leaning towards the Scrapjet because I love melee oriented vehicles and could use some more antitank at my FLGS, but the KBB and Snazzwagon are also contenders. I do have a Dakkajet so there's overlap with the Snazzwagon.
Next time I run my Orks I'll give it a shot with a KBB proxy to see if that fits the army or if I want to go for the full melee thrill with the Scrapjet. Thanks for the advice!
Shokkjump Dragsta - Great anti-armour firepower and a decent melee profile, but will flounder against mass-infantry lists. Incredibly maneuverable due to a 14" move AND a built in deep strike mechanic. It fires at a whopping BS3+ with its Shokk Rifle, so it's firepower is very reliable. Best used to hunt armour and then jump back behind cover with Shokk Tunnel, or to get into the enemies backfield to snipe long range armour and score on Behind Enemy Lines or Engage On All Fronts. Was let down by the new codex though, as using Shokk Tunnel with more than 1 can be very frustrating or downright impossible depending on the terrain on the board. Use 1 if you want it to jump around the board, but can be used in larger units of terrain is favourable or you forgo jumping completely.
Hiding behind cover requires Drive by Dakka right? On occasion I run my guys as Blood Axes since the disengage and charge is very valuable for the Warboss and Bonebreakas.
Hiding behind cover requires Drive by Dakka right? On occasion I run my guys as Blood Axes since the disengage and charge is very valuable for the Warboss and Bonebreakas.
You are correct. Ignore the bit about shooting then jumping, that's an Evil Sunz thing. This is what happens when I post things when I should be sleeping.
Tomsug wrote: Behind Enemy Lines and Teleport Homers. That means balls of steel
But if the opponent has a low unit count and map has just one home objective, than Behind and SOMETHING ELSE THAN HOMERS is a great opportunity for your koptas etc.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I' m looking on to LVO player manual and there are the typical tables…
SemperMortis wrote: Rare Rule: You are now ELIGIBLE TO BE SELECTED TO SHOOT even without guns and even if you ADVANCED THAT TURN for purposes of using an ability. Bomb squigs are wargear that have an ability. IE they go boom.
Aaaand you did again. This is completely wrong, every single word of it.
What the rule you are continuously trying to misrepresent actually says is this:
NON-SHOOTING ABILITIES
Some models and units have abilities that can be used instead of shooting with that model or unit.
Squigs are NOT an ability you can use INSTEAD OF SHOOTING.
This is how an ability used INSTEAD OF SHOOTING looks like:
Smoke Launchers: Once per battle, instead of shooting in your Shooting phase, this model can use its smoke launchers. Until the start of your next Shooting phase, when resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon against this model, subtract 1 from the hit roll. Note how that rule does not require you to select the unit to shoot? How it does not require it to be eligible to shoot?
INSTEAD OF SHOOTING means that you don't get to shoot. An ability like bomb squigs that allows you both use it and still shoot is NEVER and ability that is used INSTEAD OF SHOOTING.
Such abilities can only be used in your Shooting phase, but can be used even if your unit has no ranged weapons, or if it Advanced or Fell Back this turn, and such abilities can be used even while the unit is within Engagement Range of any enemy units.
Squigs are not SUCH [an] ABILITY, as they are NOT an ability done INSTEAD OF SHOOTING. Therefore the rule does NOT apply.
It also does NOT make a unit eligible to shot for any purpose, even if does have an ability used instead of shooting. You made that part up.
A rule has to explicitly say that a unit is eligible to shoot despite advancing (like assault weapons do!), otherwise you do not have permission to select that unit to shot, and thus never get the chance to use a bomb squig.
And once more from the summary:
- Abilities used ‘instead of shooting’ can be used in your Shooting phase.
- Such abilities can be used even if unit Advanced, Fell Back or is in Engagement Range of enemy.
While not actual rules, the quotes here imply that it refers that that very specific wording.
Unless you provide a coherent argument USING THE ACTUAL RULES, and not a misleading summary you pulled out of nowhere, proving that bomb squigs work the same as 8th edition smoke launchers, I refuse to continue to discuss it.
You continuously failing to properly quote this rule also shows some clear intention behind it. I would have expected better from you
Summary: You interpret "instead of shooting" to mean the unit or model has to forego shooting in order to use the ability, you cite Smoke launchers. I interpret it to mean an ability used instead of shooting, IE an ability that ISNT shooting. A Bomb Squig is not a ranged weapon and therefore does not shoot. So its an ability used in the shooting phase instead of shooting. We can continue to disagree, I will not say you are right and likely vice versa, so back to where I stood. Unless a TO or judge says otherwise i'll continue to use it the same way as I have been. And if you really want to call that cheating than feel free. I'll just keep saying you are wrong.
SemperMortis wrote: Rare Rule: You are now ELIGIBLE TO BE SELECTED TO SHOOT even without guns and even if you ADVANCED THAT TURN for purposes of using an ability. Bomb squigs are wargear that have an ability. IE they go boom.
Aaaand you did again. This is completely wrong, every single word of it.
What the rule you are continuously trying to misrepresent actually says is this:
NON-SHOOTING ABILITIES
Some models and units have abilities that can be used instead of shooting with that model or unit.
Squigs are NOT an ability you can use INSTEAD OF SHOOTING.
This is how an ability used INSTEAD OF SHOOTING looks like:
Smoke Launchers: Once per battle, instead of shooting in your Shooting phase, this model can use its smoke launchers. Until the start of your next Shooting phase, when resolving an attack made with a ranged weapon against this model, subtract 1 from the hit roll. Note how that rule does not require you to select the unit to shoot? How it does not require it to be eligible to shoot?
INSTEAD OF SHOOTING means that you don't get to shoot. An ability like bomb squigs that allows you both use it and still shoot is NEVER and ability that is used INSTEAD OF SHOOTING.
Such abilities can only be used in your Shooting phase, but can be used even if your unit has no ranged weapons, or if it Advanced or Fell Back this turn, and such abilities can be used even while the unit is within Engagement Range of any enemy units.
Squigs are not SUCH [an] ABILITY, as they are NOT an ability done INSTEAD OF SHOOTING. Therefore the rule does NOT apply.
It also does NOT make a unit eligible to shot for any purpose, even if does have an ability used instead of shooting. You made that part up.
A rule has to explicitly say that a unit is eligible to shoot despite advancing (like assault weapons do!), otherwise you do not have permission to select that unit to shot, and thus never get the chance to use a bomb squig.
And once more from the summary:
- Abilities used ‘instead of shooting’ can be used in your Shooting phase.
- Such abilities can be used even if unit Advanced, Fell Back or is in Engagement Range of enemy.
While not actual rules, the quotes here imply that it refers that that very specific wording.
Unless you provide a coherent argument USING THE ACTUAL RULES, and not a misleading summary you pulled out of nowhere, proving that bomb squigs work the same as 8th edition smoke launchers, I refuse to continue to discuss it.
You continuously failing to properly quote this rule also shows some clear intention behind it. I would have expected better from you
Summary: You interpret "instead of shooting" to mean the unit or model has to forego shooting in order to use the ability, you cite Smoke launchers. I interpret it to mean an ability used instead of shooting, IE an ability that ISNT shooting. A Bomb Squig is not a ranged weapon and therefore does not shoot. So its an ability used in the shooting phase instead of shooting. We can continue to disagree, I will not say you are right and likely vice versa, so back to where I stood. Unless a TO or judge says otherwise i'll continue to use it the same way as I have been. And if you really want to call that cheating than feel free. I'll just keep saying you are wrong.
But... "Instead of" doesn't mean "In addition to".
Bomb Squigs do not REPLACE shooting, they are in addition to it.
Went against Necrons with custom trait (pregame move & 1 wound rr per unit)
Spoiler:
Silent King
Void Dragon
Phareon with relic Orb
2 Chronomancers
1 Technomancer
2 x 3 heavy Destroyers with Dmg 3D3 weapon
20 Reaper Warriors
10 + 5 Immortals
I went for TTL, Engage and Assassinate and got second turn.
I had used the Warbosses WL trait to put the 2 Wazboms in reserve and managed to hide all my oher stuff besides the 2 Scrapjets of which lost 1.
The Necron player gave his shooting Destroyers in dense cover a 5++ as well as his 20 Warriors. The Orks did poorly, killed 1 1/2 destroyers and many Warriors. Made my biggest mistake with the Koptas and didn`t use ramming speed or crashing through as it probably would have been overkill on his warriors. Too bad my rolls were terrible and he had 4 Warriors left and i failed to fully score engage as well before flying towards the sun.
His 2nd turn the Dragon starting his 4 turn Rampage of spreading MW`s and killing my engaging Warbikes. Silent Kings Dakka Pylons & the Destroyers killed 2 more buggies.
Relic orb and Tecnomancer revived all my first turn kills besides 2 warriors. :(
My Wazboms and the Koptas swooped down for a deadly salvo of Dakka, but because good positioning of the Necs in dense terrain and an absurd amount of passed invulns i barely managed to kill the Pylons and failed on the warriors again.
Once more i was not able to kill the 5++ Destroyers but managed to kite the Silent King and the Dragon, which didn`t matter much because his Void Dragon did over 20 long range MW´s over the curse of 3 turns and besides my engage units i wash pushed back hard.
The Orks pulled up a good fight but it was an uphill race at that point. Warboss killed 1 Warrior and got smashed by them in return.
Wazboms did 0 wounds over the curse of their final 2 turns, must have been my worst shooting with them ever.
Squigbuggies and Koptas did a lot better but in the end there were too many important targets for them to handle them all.
1 heroic Chronamancer managed to survive two squig-heavy shooting phases and 1 close combat with the remaining 2 Squigbuggies and killed one of them. He better gets a neat upgrade back home in his Tomb world, because he survived the Wartrikes Shooting, charge MW`s and melee attacks in the final battle round as well. What a boss.
I tried to get most out of my secondaries but by the end of turn 5 all i had left was the Wartrike.
With 0 points on TTL and 20 primary VP`s less than those mean robots it was a clear win for the them.
Fazit for me:
Don`t get greedy on CP if you really need that 1 squad of Necrons to go away.
3 Scrapjets is just too good to pass on. Guess i`ll degrade one of the Wazboms then. I went for 2 so i would`t have to use them for TTL, thats the only downer for me if i want 3.
Warbikes did good. Some shooting, some boosting and cheap throwaway scoring.
Same for the KBB and Snazzwagon. Nothing overwhelming but did what i took them for.
Dragsta was good as usual for some quality shots and using his speed. Right now it`s my favourite buggy to add after the Scrapjets and Squigbuggies.
Squigbuggies are still an auto take for me. They are great for shooting MSU squads and help a lot if you need to finish something off your big bangers didn`t kill completely.
They had a bad day but were still helpful and offer a lot without taking up space.
Next game is on tuesday, so i got the weekend to tune my list a bit more.
If anyone of you manages to get a Speed Mob game against GSC or Tau, i`d be pretty interested to hear how it went.
Hiding behind cover requires Drive by Dakka right? On occasion I run my guys as Blood Axes since the disengage and charge is very valuable for the Warboss and Bonebreakas.
You are correct. Ignore the bit about shooting then jumping, that's an Evil Sunz thing. This is what happens when I post things when I should be sleeping.
Oh no worries, the other half of the time I run them as Evil Sunz so that's a stratagem I need to remember to use. I'm always tempted by Rezzmekka's redder paint but I usually end up going with Da Killa Klaw on the Warboss.
Glad to see Lootas going down in price. Putting them in a bossbunka sounds interesting, I like the model but I find it's a bit too pricey.
Rezzmekkas redder paint is quality. I think with the coming of tau the ability to threaten them early will pay off. Especially since they've lost most of their overwatch shenanigans.
Lootas always drive around in vehicles where you cant use this stratagem.
No they are not worth it to me because they go down to 15 points and you can use that stratagem. Because i would most likely not be in a situation where i can use it.
Jump out of a vehicle = They die instantly. And im not about to park a unit that cost 15ppm outside a transport.
lootas are still absolute garbage, and as someone who has 25 of them all painted and ready to play, I am very sad.
Same as Flash gitz, GW just doesn't get it.
Knock another 5 points off gits and another 2 points per lootas and then we can start talking (still would be quite far from autoinclude i think)
arn't they worth a serious look now? no one seems to be talking about them that much
lootas in boss bunka with the new terrain could be cool
We talked a little about that a few pages back. I think it ties well into some non-Alphork strategy.
E.g. I´ve tested it beside an area terrain piece containing DukkAnKuvva WL plus Boyz digging for Good Bitz. Parking the Nitro Buggy behind the whole "garrison" is quite annoying.
Flash Gitz should simply have a different weapon's type. S6 AP-2 D2 and range 24'' is fine, so is their 25ppm cost. They're basically primaris when taken under Freebooterz, with +1T and -1 save instead. But it's the heavy 3 profile on their weapon that kills them: make it dakka 5/3 instead. Now they'd be at least viable.
Lootas are more problematic, they're boyz carrying an autocannon, at least they got rid of the penalty for firing heavy weapons after moving and they have easy access to max shots.
They'could be a bit cheaper of course but I'd also like them to gain a 4+ save on top of that (fluffwise it comes from all the scrap they looted that they're wearing but also a consequence of their weapons being so massive that they hide behind them while firing ).
There's no point in fielding pure shooting infantries when shooting vehicles, including some that are also capable in melee, are much more killy, faster and tougher for the same point costs. At least they should be on par.
Its an ability. Abilities dont have look out sir, only normal shooting attacks does.
you don't even need line of sight
Right ! and on second thought, a squigbomb can actually target a model that is in melee.
And kommandos have pistol, so They are also eligible to shoot while in melee and use the squigbomb. This is so good.
Went against Necrons with custom trait (pregame move & 1 wound rr per unit)
Spoiler:
Silent King
Void Dragon
Phareon with relic Orb
2 Chronomancers
1 Technomancer
2 x 3 heavy Destroyers with Dmg 3D3 weapon
20 Reaper Warriors
10 + 5 Immortals
I went for TTL, Engage and Assassinate and got second turn.
I had used the Warbosses WL trait to put the 2 Wazboms in reserve and managed to hide all my oher stuff besides the 2 Scrapjets of which lost 1.
The Necron player gave his shooting Destroyers in dense cover a 5++ as well as his 20 Warriors. The Orks did poorly, killed 1 1/2 destroyers and many Warriors. Made my biggest mistake with the Koptas and didn`t use ramming speed or crashing through as it probably would have been overkill on his warriors. Too bad my rolls were terrible and he had 4 Warriors left and i failed to fully score engage as well before flying towards the sun.
His 2nd turn the Dragon starting his 4 turn Rampage of spreading MW`s and killing my engaging Warbikes. Silent Kings Dakka Pylons & the Destroyers killed 2 more buggies.
Relic orb and Tecnomancer revived all my first turn kills besides 2 warriors. :(
My Wazboms and the Koptas swooped down for a deadly salvo of Dakka, but because good positioning of the Necs in dense terrain and an absurd amount of passed invulns i barely managed to kill the Pylons and failed on the warriors again.
Once more i was not able to kill the 5++ Destroyers but managed to kite the Silent King and the Dragon, which didn`t matter much because his Void Dragon did over 20 long range MW´s over the curse of 3 turns and besides my engage units i wash pushed back hard.
The Orks pulled up a good fight but it was an uphill race at that point. Warboss killed 1 Warrior and got smashed by them in return.
Wazboms did 0 wounds over the curse of their final 2 turns, must have been my worst shooting with them ever.
Squigbuggies and Koptas did a lot better but in the end there were too many important targets for them to handle them all.
1 heroic Chronamancer managed to survive two squig-heavy shooting phases and 1 close combat with the remaining 2 Squigbuggies and killed one of them. He better gets a neat upgrade back home in his Tomb world, because he survived the Wartrikes Shooting, charge MW`s and melee attacks in the final battle round as well. What a boss.
I tried to get most out of my secondaries but by the end of turn 5 all i had left was the Wartrike.
With 0 points on TTL and 20 primary VP`s less than those mean robots it was a clear win for the them.
Fazit for me:
Don`t get greedy on CP if you really need that 1 squad of Necrons to go away.
3 Scrapjets is just too good to pass on. Guess i`ll degrade one of the Wazboms then. I went for 2 so i would`t have to use them for TTL, thats the only downer for me if i want 3.
Warbikes did good. Some shooting, some boosting and cheap throwaway scoring.
Same for the KBB and Snazzwagon. Nothing overwhelming but did what i took them for.
Dragsta was good as usual for some quality shots and using his speed. Right now it`s my favourite buggy to add after the Scrapjets and Squigbuggies.
Squigbuggies are still an auto take for me. They are great for shooting MSU squads and help a lot if you need to finish something off your big bangers didn`t kill completely.
They had a bad day but were still helpful and offer a lot without taking up space.
Next game is on tuesday, so i got the weekend to tune my list a bit more.
If anyone of you manages to get a Speed Mob game against GSC or Tau, i`d be pretty interested to hear how it went.
Thanks for the report dude. TTL is tough with a speed mob as it means your spending a minimum of 3cp each turn to keep deffkoptas "safe" and it's still tough to do.
I think lootas are only really viable as a bunkaboss riding freebooter speedwaagh unit.. not goff pressure…
The tall cheap bunka and the +1 to hit and -1ap of freebooter speedwaagh make them somewhat viable and the spanner can eventually help repair the bunka if needed. Wish he could use his ability embarked though.
3 units can use them, tankbustas, kommandos and squig riders, and they have each their own rules for when and how to activate them due to how slowed the activation is. That is, the rules are the same, but given they dont have the same weapon types, it ends up being different.
1) Squig riders can fire them while advancing, but cant fire them in close combat because they have no pistols and thus cant activate the shooting phase in CC.
2) Kommandos CANT fire them while advancing, but CAN fire them in close combat due to having pistols, so they can activate shooting in CC. If one wants they pay to equip a flamethrower, so they can also fire them when they advance when doing so.
3) Tankbustas cant fire them while advancing, but can fire them in CC if they equip a rokkit pistol. Furthermore, if everyone but your tankbusta tankhammer is dead you cant fire the squig? Because he has no ranged attack. (tankhammer boy looks at squig, squig looks at him with a confused look, as the tank hammer says: what am i gonna do? i cant activate you" ).
So a normal loadout, squig boys can fire while advancing but not in CC, kommandos cant fire while advancing but can in CC, and tankbustas cant fire them while advancing and also not in CC (since no one buys rokkit pistols).
The fact that you cant fire a tankbusta bomb squig if you only have a tankhammer left (because you cant activate shooting for the unit), sounds immensely slowed, as well as you cant fire them while advancing without an assault weapon. Why are squig bombs related to the weapon the unit carries? I cant believe this is something that GW really thought about, even if thats how it works right now. Basically the exact same wargear type functions wildly different from each unit, and activates differently which makes no sense.
As a last note it just says you have to be within 12 inches of your unit, but from WHOM do you draw said distance? Since the squig bomb is just a token you dont even need to put down on the table, that isnt the model you draw distance from. If everyone has assault weapons like squig riders, im assuming you draw distance to what ever is closest. But if you advance with kommandos with a flamethrower, do you draw distance from the flamethrower guy? Technically that sounds wrong because it doesnt state anywhere hes the one firing it and distances are drawn to the unit. But he IS the reason its even possible to begin with. So hes the reason you can activate it when you advance, but he is NOT the one you draw distance to because its the "unit" as whole you draw distance to?
Im confused. and yet again, another reason why the squig bomb rule is fethed up.
Furthermore, im assuming when you fire it in Close combat, by it being an ability and not an actual attack, you can also target someone you yourself are NOT in close combat with, even if said person is in close combat himself.
Another reason to switch to Dakkajets honestly… it seems the time of mass soft infantry is comming…
He likes admech but it’s an uphill fight for him.
To many overturned armies pre chapter approved.
Custodes, drukari, tyranid prenerf stampede, grey knight, and prenerf orks/sisters/genecult
I mean good luck ad mech is hurting..
Honestly I’d be very surprised if orks (even pre chapter approved nerfs! Place in the top 8 at all… they might sneak into top 16… but dude there is some way overtuned armies this lvo.
Another reason to switch to Dakkajets honestly… it seems the time of mass soft infantry is comming…
Dakkajets have always been good in this edition, and considering how cheap they are I prefer them over wazboms. I typically just bring a single dakkajet and it never disappoints me. Speedwaaagh also gives more benefits to dakkajets than wazboms.
Maybe one wazbom to provide 5++ and a dakkajet would be the perfect combination? Without the 5++ both planes are equally tough and arguably equally killy, although they aim at different targets, but the dakkajet is much cheaper.
CaptainO wrote: Rezzmekkas redder paint is quality. I think with the coming of tau the ability to threaten them early will pay off. Especially since they've lost most of their overwatch shenanigans.
while over watch nonsence is gone they have other abilties that are.... egregious.
I am not completley clued up yet, but for instance in certain armies there is a rule that allows them to make a normal move after being declared the target of a charge ....battle suits have movement 10" and fly..... so unless your charging with multiple units from 3 directions you an't gonna make it
CaptainO wrote: Rezzmekkas redder paint is quality. I think with the coming of tau the ability to threaten them early will pay off. Especially since they've lost most of their overwatch shenanigans.
while over watch nonsence is gone they have other abilties that are.... egregious.
I am not completley clued up yet, but for instance in certain armies there is a rule that allows them to make a normal move after being declared the target of a charge ....battle suits have movement 10" and fly..... so unless your charging with multiple units from 3 directions you an't gonna make it
Interesting. Wish I'd gotten to stomp some tau before they got good again (PTSD from some overwatched overwatched Ork charges in 8th) . Now it's going to be a challenge.
I'm currently trying to weigh up which is better in my bike heavy ES speed mob, pyromaniacs on a squad of 3 KBBs or fly boys on one of my planes. A 3+ save would be nice even though volkites are going to be less plentiful now but a straight up increase of 14% to the number of hits for the KBB is excellent. I would lose the ability to push the KBBs up super forward T1 with drive by dakka though...
CaptainO wrote: Rezzmekkas redder paint is quality. I think with the coming of tau the ability to threaten them early will pay off. Especially since they've lost most of their overwatch shenanigans.
while over watch nonsence is gone they have other abilties that are.... egregious.
I am not completley clued up yet, but for instance in certain armies there is a rule that allows them to make a normal move after being declared the target of a charge ....battle suits have movement 10" and fly..... so unless your charging with multiple units from 3 directions you an't gonna make it
Interesting. Wish I'd gotten to stomp some tau before they got good again (PTSD from some overwatched overwatched Ork charges in 8th) . Now it's going to be a challenge.
I'm currently trying to weigh up which is better in my bike heavy ES speed mob, pyromaniacs on a squad of 3 KBBs or fly boys on one of my planes. A 3+ save would be nice even though volkites are going to be less plentiful now but a straight up increase of 14% to the number of hits for the KBB is excellent. I would lose the ability to push the KBBs up super forward T1 with drive by dakka though...
i actually found the rule, its a tau Signature System which i think functions like relics ? i don't know tau very well
Signature System (Vectored Maneuvering Thrusters): Add 2” to the bearer’s movement. Once per round, when the bearer is selected as a charge target, if it is not engaged, it can make a normal move. If it does, until the end of the phase it cannot fire overwatch or set to defend, and your opponent can select new targets for the charge.
other anti-charge rules/strats etc
Repulsor Impact Field [1CP] - Wargear
Use in your opponent’s charge phase, when a BATTLESUIT unit is selected as a charge target. Until the end of the phase, subtract 2 from all charge rolls against that unit.
Photon Grenades [1CP] - Wargear
Use in your opponent’s charge phase, when a PHOTON GRENADES unit from your army is selected as a charge target by a non-VEHICLE, non-MONSTER enemy unit. Until the end of the turn, that enemy unit subtracts 2 from its charge rolls and takes -1 to hit.
Relic
Multi-Sensory Discouragement Array: At the end of your movement phase, select an enemy unit within 12” and roll 3D6. If the result is greater than the target’s Ld, select one of the following: the unit loses obsec; halve the move stat and charge rolls of the target; the target’s ranged attacks can only target the closest eligible target. The effect lasts until the start of your next movement phase.
Outrageous call by a judge at the LVO (my brother is there at the moment) saying dense isn't -1 if any part of the model isn't in the forrest. He managed to get it over rules but too late.
I’m still of the opinion No ork is making top 8 I’m even doubtful on top 16… as he has to now make it through the gauntlet of only fighting tyranid crusher stampedes, drukari, greyknights, and custodes lists for the next 3 rounds. Because outside of mark perry those are the only lists in the top 25…..
I’m still of the opinion No ork is making top 8 I’m even doubtful on top 16… as he has to now make it through the gauntlet of only fighting tyranid crusher stampedes, drukari, greyknights, and custodes lists for the next 3 rounds. Because outside of mark perry those are the only lists in the top 25…..
meganobs with combi skorchas ....!!! don't know what to say about that but if it works, power to him
How did he pull seigler and his ad mech list.. out of all the crusher stampedes, drukari, greyknights and custodes at the top. The 2 guys with different armies are fighting each other.
Admech are hurting but siegler is the best player.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Last undefeated ork list - Lukas troller
Battle Size [12CP]: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points) [12CP]
Clan Kultur: Goffs
Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]
+ HQ [8 PL, -2CP, 145pts] +
Beastboss on Squigosaur [8 PL, -2CP, 145pts]: 4. Brutal but Kunnin, Beastchoppa, Headwoppa's Killchoppa, Slugga, Squigosaur's Jaws, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP]
Warboss in Mega Armour [6 PL, -2CP, 115pts]: 'Uge Choppa, 3. 'Ard as Nails, Big Shoota, Da Krushin' Armour, Stratagem: Big Boss [-1CP], Stratagem: Extra Gubbinz [-1CP], Trukk Boyz
List above... he just needs to drop the kombi skorchas, without touching anything else, and he's on the budget again! Alternatively he could replace the squigbosses with warbosses on bike. Not really a significant change, assuming the megarmored boss is the waaagh caller.
Blackie wrote: List above... he just needs to drop the kombi skorchas, without touching anything else, and he's on the budget again! Alternatively he could replace the squigbosses with warbosses on bike. Not really a significant change, assuming the megarmored boss is the waaagh caller.
Troller has
2x squigboss, 2x Killrig and 2x 10 man kommando squads.
He’s 140pts over.
He has 10x meganobs and saves 50pts
Meaning he’s still 90pts over…
Even if he takes out the 5x skorchas he’s 40pts over.
and I agree he still needs to change a squigboss into a warboss on bike but it is a less durable a character. But that 60pt difference is massive.
I mean it’s significant enough to make those changes considering no ork placed and he’s the only ork player breaking the top 30 now.
Perry list ya just dropping skorchas can help. Still an uphill climb
Mark Perry's doesn't need to change anything, in fact I think it's a 1995 points list now!!
Lukas Troller's yeah, he's 90 points over. At first I thought all meganobz had kombi skorchas so removing those could have been enough. Still, replacing one squigboss with a biker boss and cutting some, not even all, kombi skorchas would already do. I think the biker boss is even better than the squigboss actually, less durable but more killy. He also has a 110 points footslogging squad of snaggas which might be redundant.
So one list actually benefits from the new points costs and the other one might not really be affected significantly.
Blackie wrote: Mark Perry's doesn't need to change anything, in fact I think it's a 1995 points list now!!
Lukas Troller's yeah, he's 90 points over. At first I thought all meganobz had kombi skorchas so removing those could have been enough. Still, replacing one squigboss with a biker boss and cutting some, not even all, kombi skorchas would already do. I think the biker boss is even better than the squigboss actually, less durable but more killy. He also has a 110 points footslogging squad of snaggas which might be redundant.
So one list actually benefits from the new points costs and the other one might not really be affected significantly.
Marks slightly over unless he drops the skorchas…
Honestly the only points increase I really didn’t like was 30pts on squigboss.. the generic only needed 15pt increase and mozgrod needed no increase.
I’m still of the opinion No ork is making top 8 I’m even doubtful on top 16… as he has to now make it through the gauntlet of only fighting tyranid crusher stampedes, drukari, greyknights, and custodes lists for the next 3 rounds. Because outside of mark perry those are the only lists in the top 25…..
Whats with Boss Zagsrtuk ??
What roll does he play in this list, I don't get it !
Tomsug wrote: Score the points. Holds the objectives, do the action. Solve the small “troubles”. Fast small easy to hide and able to kill character.
HMMmmm, able to kill characters sounds very appealing to me.
I play against Ultra marines very often. My opponent always has strong buffing characters giving reroll or invuls or healing/ reviving models. I can never kill them because they are always behind other stuff and "look out sir" protected.
The ability to zoom in and remove that would be a game changer for me. I will have to keep an eye out on e-bay see if I can pick one up.
Warbikers [12 PL, 230pts] . Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 8x Warbiker w/ Choppa: 8x Choppa, 16x Dakkagun
Warbikers [4 PL, 80pts] . Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 2x Warbiker w/ Choppa: 2x Choppa, 4x Dakkagun
+ Flyer +
Wazbom Blastajet [10 PL, 210pts]: 2x Tellyport Mega-Blastas, Blastajet Force Field
Wazbom Blastajet [10 PL, 210pts]: 2x Tellyport Mega-Blastas, Blastajet Force Field
++ Total: [97 PL, 12CP, 1,905pts] ++
You really need the CPs. Single Outrider ES works if you take it to the extreme =
- wartrike with the redder paint, squigtyres and fasta than yooz is a nonsens with up to 28” movement. Perfect for scoring anywhere. Very complementary with jumping Koptas. You can be really anywhere….
- unbalanced Warbiker squads are good. Small one do the bitz, big one do the mess.
- To the Last + Good Bitz + Homers / Strangelhold works. Others sucks mostly for the low count of the units. Except killing secondaries of course…
- Engage sucks. You have low unit count and you depserately need to make a disbalances on the table. Jumping from one half of the table to another to tear the enemy apart and benefit from your speed. You don' t want to be everywhere.
- I have a respect from new Taus. Can beat this down….
It' s a “kill them in 2 turns or die” kind of the game. Fast and fun. I like it.
I’m still of the opinion No ork is making top 8 I’m even doubtful on top 16… as he has to now make it through the gauntlet of only fighting tyranid crusher stampedes, drukari, greyknights, and custodes lists for the next 3 rounds. Because outside of mark perry those are the only lists in the top 25…..
Whats with Boss Zagsrtuk ??
What roll does he play in this list, I don't get it !
Someone please explain it to me
Boss Zagstruk is a hidden gem, he can fly with movement 12" gaurenteed advance of 18 and has a built in deep strike.
given you can advance and charge when a waaagh is declared he is pretty dangerous for 110 pts
LOOTAS will be down to 15 pts.
arn't they worth a serious look now? no one seems to be talking about them that much
lootas in boss bunka with the new terrain could be cool
Lootas could be 13ppm and still not a solid competitive choice. Compare it to every other 9th edition auto-cannon unit, and hell, even some of the 8th ones. Its weak. The Ad Mech chickenwalker has been nerfed twice now and its still significantly better in almost every way possible to the loota. 2 chickens gets you 12 shots and 8 hits on average for 150pts. For 150pts Lootas get 24(16) with 8(5.3) hits for the same price. Chickens are M10 to Lootas 5, they have the same WS. Durability wise, they have 12 T6 wounds with a 3+ save compared to the lootas who have 10 T5 wounds with a 6+ save.
Worse, against the plethora of -1 to hit abilities in the game, those chickenwalkers drop to 6 hits while the lootas drop to 4 and 1.3. And of course the most damning aspect of this comparison. Lootas CAN NOT deploy in the open, they require a Trukk to even survive past turn 1. That ups their cost by 70pts or 5pts less than an entire extra chickenwalker.
I consider SM suppressors to be fairly terrible right now and even they somehow out perform lootas at 15ppm. 100pts gets you 3 of them for 9 shots and 6 hits. For 100pts you get 6.6 lootas, so really 5.6 lootas and a spanna. At absolute best that means they average 5.6 hits a turn and at 25-48' range thats 3.7 a turn. They have 6 wounds to the Orkz 6.6, theirs are only T4 but with a 3+ save compared to the lootas with T5 but 6+ save. Suppressors are also M12 to the lootas 5. And of course the real reason anyone would take suppressors isn't their firepower its the ability "suppressing Fire" which stops a unit from firing overwatch if they are hit even once that turn by them. So 3 shots on average hitting on 3s means you could split fire and stop 3 separate units from declaring overwatch.
the gist of the loota problem is that they aren't capable of doing the job they were originally designed for. it used to be you would stick lootas in Ruins to give them a 4+ cover save and have them sit there the entire game plinking away with D3 shots. This was also in an age where Shootas were ok, not great, but ok. Now those same lootas have morale problems, don't benefit from cover like they used to and worse, their dmg output has basically stayed the same. Dakka 3(2) is not a big improvement over what it was, and especially not in a game where D3+3 weapons are a dime a dozen.
This problem seems to have percolated across the entire ork weapons systems this edition. Marines and imperials got D2 and D3+3 melta weapons, other imperials got D3+3 lascannons, Dark Eldar got D3+3 weapons and now the Tau one upped everyone with a D3+6+3MW weapon. What did Orkz get for our faction specific ranged weapons? Rokkitz went from Assault 1 to Heavy D3. So we went from 0.3 hits a turn to 0.6 a turn on average, unless the model moves, then its right back to 0.3, and with the inclusion of "blast" keyword we can't use them in CC on our vehicles, most of which want to be in CC (Kanz, Dreadz, Nauts, Scrapjets etc). The Ork deffgun went from D3 shots to Dakka 3(2). A non-existent increase in their firepower. They did drop in price significantly from 8th edition, but also at the inclusion of a Spanner model which eats up space and is mostly useless.
So again, you could bump them down to 13ppm and they would still struggle to find a place in the game. Repeating myself in regards to how I want boyz to be buffed rather than a simple price cut, in other words, make them worth their points cost rather than just dropping it until they are too cheap. I think lootas likewise don't need a price cut, they need a dmg increase and a durability increase. Give Lootas 5+ saves so when they hide in cover its back to a 4+ and increase their shots to D3+2 and make them heavy again rather then Dakka 3(2). I would like the stupid spanner rule gone, but I doubt GW would be that nice. So 10 of these guys at 15ppm would then be putting out 24-40 shots a turn. On the high end that averages 13.3 hits and on the low end that is 8 hits. Not great but a hell of a lot better than it currently is, especially in an edition with -1dmg and +1 to armor everywhere.
The math on lootas just feels awful shooting into any target. They also have 0 defense. They feel like a unit still stuck in pre-8th edition where you just needed a single penetrating hit to kill a vehicle.
Question about spiked rams and ramming speed? Havent played in a while forgive me.
Says MWs are done during the charge move and once finished. Do you roll separately for each series of MW, since they are done at 2 different times? During the charge move and once the charge move is finished?
Also, if enough mortal wounds are done, is it possible for the opponent to remove models from the front thus denying engagement from your models and denying you from attacking in melee?
Dr.Duck wrote: Question about spiked rams and ramming speed? Havent played in a while forgive me.
Says MWs are done during the charge move and once finished. Do you roll separately for each series of MW, since they are done at 2 different times? During the charge move and once the charge move is finished?
Also, if enough mortal wounds are done, is it possible for the opponent to remove models from the front thus denying engagement from your models and denying you from attacking in melee?
You should get both the Spiked Ram roll for MW and the Ramming Speed roll for MW.
If you charge, you can always activate in combat-so you'd have a 3" pile-in to nab the unit you charged. It is POSSIBLE to kill yourself out of fighting range with the MW, but pretty hard.
I think "get the good bits" has had a stealth buff as a result of nachmund particularly for speedmobz. 5 of the new missions have 3 objectives in no man's land(optimal) 3 have 4 objectives in no man's land and theres 1 with 5 objectives in no man's land (probably the worst as your opponent would get to nominate the two they want to defend. None of the new mission have 2 any more.
I know we now have access to retrieve nachmund data which lends itself to engage but I know the other speed mob players have noticed the tendency of our lists to skew towards lower unit numbers which obviously leans away from engage.
Anyone had any experience with Kopta Big Bomms - worth it or not? Seems like Koptas are generally charging in from deepstrike so not much oppurtunity to be moving over a clump of units.
Also i'm slightly confused about Get Da Good bits, I'm sure I saw something about how bikes could carry on moving while completing the Action, but I can't find reference to that aside from a Blood Axe stratgem, so I might be getting confused there? Does a Speedmob army have to commit bike squad(s) stationary in the mid field for an entire turn to score? But if my understanding is correct, you could score from multiple Good bits points if you control them successfully, scoring 6 or 9 pts if you are lucky - as there isn't a 'per turn' cap like there is with 'da biggest and da best'?
Lootas suffer from being very squishy, very expensive for what they offer, and not doing enough damage. I imagine if they got rid of one of those problems they would be nearly viable. Preferably just doing more damage and annihilating their target before being pasted in return rather than tickling it.
Levski wrote: Anyone had any experience with Kopta Big Bomms - worth it or not? Seems like Koptas are generally charging in from deepstrike so not much oppurtunity to be moving over a clump of units.
If you have a spare five points I couldn't see any harm in the bomb itself, however you would lose out on the reliable damage of the rokkits for damage that's a bit more swingy because of the fewer shots.
Levski wrote: Anyone had any experience with Kopta Big Bomms - worth it or not? Seems like Koptas are generally charging in from deepstrike so not much oppurtunity to be moving over a clump of units.
Also i'm slightly confused about Get Da Good bits, I'm sure I saw something about how bikes could carry on moving while completing the Action, but I can't find reference to that aside from a Blood Axe stratgem, so I might be getting confused there? Does a Speedmob army have to commit bike squad(s) stationary in the mid field for an entire turn to score? But if my understanding is correct, you could score from multiple Good bits points if you control them successfully, scoring 6 or 9 pts if you are lucky - as there isn't a 'per turn' cap like there is with 'da biggest and da best'?
I ran 4 rokkits and 1 blasts with bomb on a squad of 5 deffkoptas and I have since changed to all rokkits. I managed to use the bomb in one out of 5 games while I could have used the extra d3 shots in all 5 games.
The speedmobz rule allows the bikes to move and advance and still count as a normal move allowing you to do an action. If you move AFTER the action has started the action is cancelled (for example with drive by dakka). You are correct that you can attempt the action multiple times with a possibility of scoring up to 9 VP. If you have player placed terrain or are doing the mission where you move the objective try and swing it so one unit of bikes can do the action from out of line of sight. Try to get 6vp in turn 2 (by starting the action on at least 2 markers T1) and then just use the bike squad in cover to complete the action each turn to max out.
CaptainO wrote: I think "get the good bits" has had a stealth buff as a result of nachmund particularly for speedmobz. 5 of the new missions have 3 objectives in no man's land(optimal) 3 have 4 objectives in no man's land and theres 1 with 5 objectives in no man's land (probably the worst as your opponent would get to nominate the two they want to defend. None of the new mission have 2 any more.
I know we now have access to retrieve nachmund data which lends itself to engage but I know the other speed mob players have noticed the tendency of our lists to skew towards lower unit numbers which obviously leans away from engage.
Very good point! I checked it and compare it with my experience with Bitz and it is even more interesting:
1. There are two reasons, why (or how) score the Bitz
- you can score a lot on the end. To do this, you however need enough units alive. Clever opponent can focus his fire on your bikers or other scoring units and you maybe krump him, but do not score the Bitz, because you have no suitable units on the end. Bad news for single detachement Speed Mob army…
- there is is however second way how to score - on one single objective every turn. You need just one unit but this should be well hidden.
2. In CA21 there was one mission very suitable to score the Bitz - 23 Scouring - because one Bitz objective was always about 3” from your deployment zone. So you was usually able to score it from T1 and from behind the LOS block.
In CA22 there are two such missions - 23 and 11. Even better!
So again, you could bump them down to 13ppm and they would still struggle to find a place in the game. Repeating myself in regards to how I want boyz to be buffed rather than a simple price cut, in other words, make them worth their points cost rather than just dropping it until they are too cheap. I think lootas likewise don't need a price cut, they need a dmg increase and a durability increase. Give Lootas 5+ saves so when they hide in cover its back to a 4+ and increase their shots to D3+2 and make them heavy again rather then Dakka 3(2). I would like the stupid spanner rule gone, but I doubt GW would be that nice. So 10 of these guys at 15ppm would then be putting out 24-40 shots a turn. On the high end that averages 13.3 hits and on the low end that is 8 hits. Not great but a hell of a lot better than it currently is, especially in an edition with -1dmg and +1 to armor everywhere.
I agree, lootas have no spot. But i would just increase it to 2 wounds and increase the amounts of shots to dakka 4/3?
Giving them something to effectively increase ballistic skill would be better imo. Autohit dakka would work, as would some additional ap, like 2 or something.
Could also go back to real old lootas, you can equip em with any wargear options from other armies, cheap platforms for dark lances wouldn’t be terrible.
i think the gun just needs to be better.
S7 Ap1 2D is not that good right now. Lacks AP to punch through armor, -1D is common, S7 doesnt hurt big things very well and doesnt smash smaller things either.
Looking at the new mission 12 "tear down their icon" a speed mob squad of 3 kbbs could be ideal "bomb layers/tertiary action monkeys" especially T1/T2 when they'll have little else to do. They're a nightmare to charge and can advance and do actions.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mission 23 "scouring" also has a tertiary action objective ideal with 5 objectives within close range of each other.
Vineheart01 wrote: i think the gun just needs to be better.
S7 Ap1 2D is not that good right now. Lacks AP to punch through armor, -1D is common, S7 doesnt hurt big things very well and doesnt smash smaller things either.
Exactly, their profile is obsolete. On the other hand they already have 3 shots each and forcing players to roll more dice just to get ok results isn't the right way. Nor is making them so cheap that they become spammable.
I'd like an increased armour save (4+) and some buffs to their weapons instead, which can keep the autocannon profile but could gain 1 or 2 side effects/abilities, like +1 to wound vs vehicles/monsters and/or causing a mortal wound on 6s to wound in addition to other damage, or getting AP-3 on 6s to wound. Modifyers on the BS could works as well, but not modifyers to the hit roll though, since they have to be stackable with freebooterz trait.
Since the spanner isn’t going anywhere because it’s in the plastic kit… my fix for lootas is to make the spanner useful right out of the box…
First fix big shootas and make it -1 ap/ 2dam and increase range to 48 to match deff guns…
I also wouldn’t mind seeing deffguns become 4/2.
Next add a rule to spanners something like
“tracer rounds”- each time a spanner model hits the lootas in his unit get +1 to hit. (Effectively making lootas bs4)
Bs4+ deffguns at 4/2 are then worth 15pts… they still die to a stiff breeze… but they need transports… I don’t think lootas need more armor that’s the role flashgitz should play.. as soon as they make snazzgun Dakka instead of heavy…
Vineheart01 wrote: i think the gun just needs to be better.
S7 Ap1 2D is not that good right now. Lacks AP to punch through armor, -1D is common, S7 doesnt hurt big things very well and doesnt smash smaller things either.
Exactly, their profile is obsolete. On the other hand they already have 3 shots each and forcing players to roll more dice just to get ok results isn't the right way. Nor is making them so cheap that they become spammable.
I'd like an increased armour save (4+) and some buffs to their weapons instead, which can keep the autocannon profile but could gain 1 or 2 side effects/abilities, like +1 to wound vs vehicles/monsters and/or causing a mortal wound on 6s to wound in addition to other damage, or getting AP-3 on 6s to wound. Modifyers on the BS could works as well, but not modifyers to the hit roll though, since they have to be stackable with freebooterz trait.
I'd love a 4+ Save on Lootas but I'm not so sure about the 6s give AP-3, that's a very Eldar like ability. Perhaps something that synergizes with Dakka weapons where they can reroll Hits or reroll 1s when they are within half range.
CaptainO wrote: Looking at the new mission 12 "tear down their icon" a speed mob squad of 3 kbbs could be ideal "bomb layers/tertiary action monkeys" especially T1/T2 when they'll have little else to do. They're a nightmare to charge and can advance and do actions.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mission 23 "scouring" also has a tertiary action objective ideal with 5 objectives within close range of each other.
Actualy it' s pretty interesting topic. New missions comes with the quesfion, how to optimize our lists. We need to optimize to all of them however, not one of them.
KBBs are absolutely wrong unit for any action.They are too expensive. To do the actions you need CHEAP small hard to kill unit. Unit doing action cannot do dakka. And dakka is what matters. Maybe one model in multi detachement SpeedMob. 80-90p is the cheapest price tag in on the list…
Actually I did a stat, what kind of “4th Secondary” is in the new missions. See the the fast sheet with stylish ork glyph in on the picture
There are 4 aspects, that can be valid in each of the new missions - what should you do or what can happen.
1. Do the action. They are 3 - One of them gives ObSec finish on the end of the turn. One ends on the End of the turn, second in next command phase. If you play one detach Speed Mob, that sucks, you need another unit to do this or skip the Bitz.
2. Sticky Objective rewarding the obsec units (not sticky for not obsec)
3. Reward the killing of enemy units.
4. Reward the holding or overtaking the Objectives.
Conclusion - extra obsec unit for extra action and better objective play could be usefull. For example - change from the Wartrike to Warboss on Warbike (he' s got Obsec via Speed Mob and is smaller).
But if your game plan is to smash opponent down in T3 no matter what, that' s maybe not so crucial.
CaptainO wrote: Looking at the new mission 12 "tear down their icon" a speed mob squad of 3 kbbs could be ideal "bomb layers/tertiary action monkeys" especially T1/T2 when they'll have little else to do. They're a nightmare to charge and can advance and do actions.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Mission 23 "scouring" also has a tertiary action objective ideal with 5 objectives within close range of each other.
Actualy it' s pretty interesting topic. New missions comes with the quesfion, how to optimize our lists. We need to optimize to all of them however, not one of them.
KBBs are absolutely wrong unit for any action.They are too expensive. To do the actions you need CHEAP small hard to kill unit. Unit doing action cannot do dakka. And dakka is what matters. Maybe one model in multi detachement SpeedMob. 80-90p is the cheapest price tag in on the list…
Actually I did a stat, what kind of “4th Secondary” is in the new missions. See the the fast sheet with stylish ork glyph in on the picture
There are 4 aspects, that can be valid in each of the new missions - what should you do or what can happen.
1. Do the action. They are 3 - One of them gives ObSec finish on the end of the turn. One ends on the End of the turn, second in next command phase. If you play one detach Speed Mob, that sucks, you need another unit to do this or skip the Bitz.
2. Sticky Objective rewarding the obsec units (not sticky for not obsec)
3. Reward the killing of enemy units.
4. Reward the holding or overtaking the Objectives.
Conclusion - extra obsec unit for extra action and better objective play could be usefull. For example - change from the Wartrike to Warboss on Warbike (he' s got Obsec via Speed Mob and is smaller).
But if your game plan is to smash opponent down in T3 no matter what, that' s maybe not so crucial.
You can only do the "set bomb" action once a turn hence why I think the KBBs would be ideal T1/T2 as their going to be out of range with the majority of their guns (I've found that with reasonable terrain density it's tough to get LoS with their rivet gun early) if theyre not shooting then they might as well be doing an action. If targets become available in T2 then obviously let fly and switch units (my warboss on bike with redder armour and faster than yous who doesn't lose out by doing an action and has a 20" range).
I've found the speed mob super CP hungry so I'm currently running a solo detachment with an auxiliary for a second hq (starts with 9cp). This limits me to larger squads but If you're running multiple detachment with more MSUs your points are definitely valid.
I'm leaning into get the good Bitz and have found larger bike squads stay around longer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'll also say because nobz on warbikes are so trash you're really limited to 5 max obsec units in a speedmob(unless you want to start with 2 CP). The deffkilla wartrike has gone up in my estimation as it can still claim engage whereas the warboss on bike can't. I totally agree it's not an optimal secondary for speedmobz but it's no harm having it as an option. His larger base is better for the ES fight last relic too (and any auras)
I play Speed Mob too. One ES detach. Absolutely understand. So we hve the same starting point.
I was solving what´ s better HQ and you solved it - you took both. Interesting. Clever.
I have a stats how I spent the CPs and with no waste even with 12CP I ´m on 0 in T3 Gork, CP rerolls on number of Wazboom shots are so usefull! So burning 3 on another HQ…. To score the VPs … interesting.
However back to the topic - Nob Bikers are unbelievable trash, yes, but you can go 3x5 Koptas and 3x9 bikers and you are definitely out of points. Even more bikers will be more than the deployment can contain)
Automatically Appended Next Post: However, is your gameplan really about scoring the points?
My is more about makeing a preasure and killing. And blocking the other side from scoring. If the opponent score more than 40, than I did something wrong. Or he is significantly better….
You 100% on the space issue. Two planes and all those bike bases fill up the available area fast.
How have you found running 3*5 deffkoptas. The only reason I'm leaning towards a squad of 3 buggies (specifically KBBs) is that I can only protect two units of deffkoptas per turn using drive by and into the sun. My third "non bike" unit is going to be out in the open or not doing anything. Putting One deffkopta into reserves is a possibility but since I can only use ramming speed once in T2/t3 I'm relying on a 9" charge.
For a very similar price The KBBs give me an extra toughness and an extra 4 wounds. Another source of mortals is nice too (although don't get me started on custodes new 4+++ against mortals)
Don't get me wrong 5 bikes is always better than 3 KBB no argument from me. I just wonder about 3 of them rather than mixing it up for the 3rd choice.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In terms of my game plan Ive been trying to create a bit of target saturation with get the good Bitz if I go first. All three bikes start GtGBs KBBs get into a threatening position for T2 and my two planes push up for a bit of alpha striking. I actually have been optimising their T1 location for shooting so much that they'll probably have to fly off T2. It basically means they're less of a threat so may end up being left alive.
Going second is a mare as invariably my opponent targets the two planes. With 9cp I'm much more inclined to reserve the planes if my opponent has scary anti air.
I have hope one day they will fix nob bikers.. I mean I regularly feedback it to the rules team to fix it everytime something even remotely relevant comes up for it.
Yeah nobbikers irritate me. I have quite a few and i cannot use them because they are actually inferior to warbikers in every way except they get Bigchoppas across the board insead of just the nob.
They cost more, have equal wounds/toughness, dont have smoke cloud, and dont have red button. Wat.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah nobbikers irritate me. I have quite a few and i cannot use them because they are actually inferior to warbikers in every way except they get Bigchoppas across the board insead of just the nob.
They cost more, have equal wounds/toughness, dont have smoke cloud, and dont have red button. Wat.
It's baffling, I'm quite certain some communication must have been crossed when they wrote the errata? Maybe they thought Nob Bikers were going to Legends since they were a codex datasheet in the 8th book and were removed in 9th, not realizing they were in the FW Compendium they were errata'ing? It's so bizarre that the Nob leader of a warbiker mob has 4W and these guys are still 3...
*edit: I forgot they did give errata for Nob Bikers to have the army-wide abilities refer to the codex ('Ere We Go, Mob Rule, Waaagh!). Just a big mystery.
gungo wrote: I have hope one day they will fix nob bikers.. I mean I regularly feedback it to the rules team to fix it everytime something even remotely relevant comes up for it.
I don't. They're not even codex units now, which means they'll likely be left behind. Best use for the models for now and the future is to field them as leaders for regular bikers.
Vineheart01 wrote: Yeah nobbikers irritate me. I have quite a few and i cannot use them because they are actually inferior to warbikers in every way except they get Bigchoppas across the board insead of just the nob.
They cost more, have equal wounds/toughness, dont have smoke cloud, and dont have red button. Wat.
It's baffling, I'm quite certain some communication must have been crossed when they wrote the errata? Maybe they thought Nob Bikers were going to Legends since they were a codex datasheet in the 8th book and were removed in 9th, not realizing they were in the FW Compendium they were errata'ing? It's so bizarre that the Nob leader of a warbiker mob has 4W and these guys are still 3...
*edit: I forgot they did give errata for Nob Bikers to have the army-wide abilities refer to the codex ('Ere We Go, Mob Rule, Waaagh!). Just a big mystery.
They're in the compendium and not legends because FW released an offical kit for nob bikers. Same reason why the warboss on bike belongs to that section too.
I'm well aware why they are in FW Compendium, I was saying there's a distinct possibility GW can't keep all their rules straight, though as I said in the edit they were clearly aware that Nob Bikers were in the IA compendium. And on that subject, balance datasheet and a big round of FAQs dropped but no major changes for Orks that I noticed.
Yeah, I don't either. What a waste of time. They could have at least given Nob Bikerz the much needed update for the extra wound and Big Red Button. I guess they stay irrelevant for another edition.
Also, really miffed they bothered keeping the same buggy restriction after the points hikes. At least alter how Kustom Jobs work then!
Except for the core rule change that says screw you orks no more charging after you disembark from a vehicle that moved.
Making trukk boys useless again.
And drukari get a light adjustment and are still tier 1 cause fuk you orks.
It’s comically bad at this point. Obvious playtesters with an ax to grind.
Cool, they got rid of dual-choppa nobz. Thanks GW, remove the one interesting bone nobz had why dont ya.
2 weapons saying additional attacks do not cause 2 extra attacks now.
Also what core rule are you talkinga bout that says you cant charge after disembarking a vehicle that moved? Codex > core rules when theres a conflict generally, the core rule has to be worded very specifically to overrule a codex.
Vineheart01 wrote: Cool, they got rid of dual-choppa nobz. Thanks GW, remove the one interesting bone nobz had why dont ya.
2 weapons saying additional attacks do not cause 2 extra attacks now.
No, that still works. The faq specifically addresses weapons with an ability that grants them an additional attack only if they're equipped with two of the same weapon. Compare the wording of Killsaws to Choppas and you'll see the difference, the faq only addresses wording like the one found on Killsaws. They're stopping people from claiming that as soon as you have two Killsaws, each Killsaws now unlocks +1 attack for 2 extra attacks.
Ok, the shitstorm comes about this errata in core rules potentialy nerfing Trukkboyz:
Edit - uploaded the picture with the context - so IMHO it says “IF transport has a rule about crew remain stationary AND IF has a rule allowing to disemabark after movement THAN no charge
This is not relevant for the trukboyz, so they are safe. Isn' t it?
Stop complaint orks … we reduced meganobs by 5pts we had to nerf them so you can’t use them as trukk boys and clarified that you only get 1 atk on those dual saw meganobs… (although I never played them with 2 atks)
Almost 3 months on and still no faq on "attack out of the sun"& its ability to to remove a deffkoptas squad the turn it comes on...
If GW doesn't update nobz on bikes we can't use em. If they don't update AootS then we can use it?
On a more positive note a deffkopta (and wazbomm) heavy speed mob now has a very good match up into Talos and artists of flesh in particular with all the s8/9/10 weapons ignoring their "ramshackle".
Id love to hear people's thoughts but I'd go as far as to say that as a result of all the recent changes to points and rules speed mobz are our top build...
That is assuming trukkboyz are dead although maybe Vineheart01 has a point with codices superseding core rules...
This is not correct. The core rule errata is specific to rules that make you count as stationary (e.g. Argent Shroud sisters tactic). Trukk boyz makes no mention of counting as stationary.
CaptainO wrote: Almost 3 months on and still no faq on "attack out of the sun"& its ability to to remove a deffkoptas squad the turn it comes on...
If GW doesn't update nobz on bikes we can't use em. If they don't update AootS then we can use it?
On a more positive note a deffkopta (and wazbomm) heavy speed mob now has a very good match up into Talos and artists of flesh in particular with all the s8/9/10 weapons ignoring their "ramshackle".
Id love to hear people's thoughts but I'd go as far as to say that as a result of all the recent changes to points and rules speed mobz are our top build...
That is assuming trukkboyz are dead although maybe Vineheart01 has a point with codices superseding core rules...
The top speedmob list at lvo placed rank 100….
Since then it has gotten triple nerfed…
No more dual subfactions freebooter/evilsun
Buggies have gone up in price by 20/10
And mission have gotten harder for non troop/unit sizes of 5 or less activations…
I agree it’s still one of our stronger builds but it’s not a great tournament build do to missions….
Goff pressure is still slightly better even though it has got A severe beating…
I mean I’d love to hear peoples rational for why trukk boys are fine… but it’s really clear this change was done for the sole purpose of preventing charges after transports move… as normally there is no way to disembark and charge after movement.
I'm not expert but my thought was the change doesn't apply to Trukk Boyz since the header is regarding to "Counts as remaining stationary" which wouldn't apply to the Trukk Boyz as a loophole.
The Red Hobbit wrote: I'm not expert but my thought was the change doesn't apply to Trukk Boyz since the header is regarding to "Counts as remaining stationary" which wouldn't apply to the Trukk Boyz as a loophole.
Hard to tell what GWs intent was though.
The question is who
Does it apply to since there was no units with counts as remain stationary that were able to disembark (let alone charge) if a transport moved…
I hope that becomes the general consensus as I think goff pressure still has a little leg to stand on if meganobs can apply some pressure with trukk boys.
The Red Hobbit wrote: I'm not expert but my thought was the change doesn't apply to Trukk Boyz since the header is regarding to "Counts as remaining stationary" which wouldn't apply to the Trukk Boyz as a loophole.
Hard to tell what GWs intent was though.
The question is who
Does it apply to since there was no units with counts as remain stationary that were able to disembark (let alone charge) if a transport moved…
I hope that becomes the general consensus as I think goff pressure still has a little leg to stand on if meganobs can apply some pressure with trukk boys.
Trukk boys are unchanged. Just people with selective reading as usual.
Trukk boys ability does not mention remaining stationary so this rule does not apply.
So on closer inspection the rules that prevent charging after disembarking appear to be aimed exclusively at ultramarine impulsors which would be subject to the impulsors rule allowing disembarkation after a transport moves and the Ultramarines counts as stationary rule. (The way it's written in the errata is woeful) trukkboyz arent effected thankfully.
In my mind this puts the goff pressure list a bit ahead of the speed mob. Trukkboyz (especially meganobz) are still good.
I wouldn't be as negative about the new missions regarding speed mobz. Solo clanz isn't the end of the world, buggy nerfs should encourage us to try some of the other options (or just deffkoptas which honestly are bad ass and crazy fun to play) and the requirement for min 3 for non vehicle units to do engage/min 5 for retrieve nachmund data doesn't change much for vehicle heavy lists other than encouraging larger bike squads.
The focus on more actions throughout the game definitely benefits speedmobz ability to advance and still complete an action. It should be noted that MSUs throughout the game have seen this nerf.
Drukhari were one of orks biggest weaknesses and they've been nerfed (can't wait for them to feel the full d3 of my deffkopta rokkits) other armies will suffer more from having access to only one "clan" (sisters, guard, nids) and tau no longer have killer overwatch. Our win rate at lvo was around 55% which is good. I predict we'll stay around that.
1. "Count as stationery" is not sufficient on it's own to allow a transport to move and disembark passengers.
2. You can only move and disembark passengers if either the transport or the unit on board has an explicit rule to allow move and disembark.
3. Even if you have a rule that allows move and disembark, you cannot then charge during the same turn.
Only part 1 refers to "count as stationary", which is irrelevant to Trukk Boyz, but Trukk Boyz is an explicit rule to allow move and disembark so qualifies for parts 2 and 3. To say that Trukk Boyz is given a pass because it isn't a count as stationary rule misses the point - as part 1 clarifies that count as stationary is never relevant for move and disembark, part 3 must be a blanket rule.
The top speedmob list at lvo placed rank 100….
Since then it has gotten triple nerfed…
No more dual subfactions freebooter/evilsun
Buggies have gone up in price by 20/10
And mission have gotten harder for non troop/unit sizes of 5 or less activations…
I agree it’s still one of our stronger builds but it’s not a great tournament build do to missions….
Goff pressure is still slightly better even though it has got A severe beating…
I mean I’d love to hear peoples rational for why trukk boys are fine… but it’s really clear this change was done for the sole purpose of preventing charges after transports move… as normally there is no way to disembark and charge after movement.
It' s a common mistake disproved almost on every tournament - list doesn't matter. The player is what matters. Good players wins.
So it is also very much about “good players do not choose the orks” right now.
Second aspect is - models. To play full SpeedMob you need tons of deffkoptas and bikers. Nobody played it for a long long time. To paint is a pain. Trust me, I do it right now. See the Killrigs? Goff presure list has unchanged rules since summer and people started to play it now. After 6 months? Well, Speed Mob became a think shortly before christmas.
My point is, that time is important.
However I agree, orks tends to go down slowly to the lower A /higher B tier. It' s a nice place. No nerfs are aimed to you and you still can win.
1. "Count as stationery" is not sufficient on it's own to allow a transport to move and disembark passengers.
2. You can only move and disembark passengers if either the transport or the unit on board has an explicit rule to allow move and disembark.
3. Even if you have a rule that allows move and disembark, you cannot then charge during the same turn.
Only part 1 refers to "count as stationary", which is irrelevant to Trukk Boyz, but Trukk Boyz is an explicit rule to allow move and disembark so qualifies for parts 2 and 3. To say that Trukk Boyz is given a pass because it isn't a count as stationary rule misses the point - as part 1 clarifies that count as stationary is never relevant for move and disembark, part 3 must be a blanket rule.
This entire argument misses the point that all of the bullet points are under the section explicitly applied to "Rules That Count as Remaining Stationary". Trukk boyz is not one of those rules.
1. "Count as stationery" is not sufficient on it's own to allow a transport to move and disembark passengers.
2. You can only move and disembark passengers if either the transport or the unit on board has an explicit rule to allow move and disembark.
3. Even if you have a rule that allows move and disembark, you cannot then charge during the same turn.
Only part 1 refers to "count as stationary", which is irrelevant to Trukk Boyz, but Trukk Boyz is an explicit rule to allow move and disembark so qualifies for parts 2 and 3. To say that Trukk Boyz is given a pass because it isn't a count as stationary rule misses the point - as part 1 clarifies that count as stationary is never relevant for move and disembark, part 3 must be a blanket rule.
This entire argument misses the point that all of the bullet points are under the section explicitly applied to "Rules That Count as Remaining Stationary". Trukk boyz is not one of those rules.
It explicitly makes the point that you need a rule other than count as stationery to move and disembark, and if you do you cannot then charge. Trukk Boyz most certainly is one of those rules (a source of move and disembark).
Tomsug wrote: Ok, the shitstorm comes about this errata in core rules potentialy nerfing Trukkboyz:
Edit - uploaded the picture with the context - so IMHO it says “IF transport has a rule about crew remain stationary AND IF has a rule allowing to disemabark after movement THAN no charge
This is not relevant for the trukboyz, so they are safe. Isn' t it?
I got a couple of very noob questions if you will indulge me.
I’m still not clear on obsec, if I have 10 Kommandos on an objective and my buddy has 1 marine chaplain on a bike who holds the objective? This happened in the last game and he claimed the objective, would there be any difference if the Kommandos were Boyz?
I play Goffs so don’t have the DeffSkulls obsec trait.
Secondly, any tips on speeding the games up. I have played about 8 games now and they are painfully slow. I know it may speed up as I get to know my units better but right now it’s really holding up the size of the armies as the games don’t get finished.
It may also mean that my force isn’t Killy enough so I’m happy to take tips on that too.
DoktaRoksta wrote: I got a couple of very noob questions if you will indulge me.
I’m still not clear on obsec, if I have 10 Kommandos on an objective and my buddy has 1 marine chaplain on a bike who holds the objective? This happened in the last game and he claimed the objective, would there be any difference if the Kommandos were Boyz?
I play Goffs so don’t have the DeffSkulls obsec trait.
Secondly, any tips on speeding the games up. I have played about 8 games now and they are painfully slow. I know it may speed up as I get to know my units better but right now it’s really holding up the size of the armies as the games don’t get finished.
It may also mean that my force isn’t Killy enough so I’m happy to take tips on that too.
Unless the Chaplain had Objective Secured, it's based entirely on the number of models within 3".
If only one side has Objective Secured, they control that objective.
If both sides have Objective Secured, then it goes back to number of models.
Marines have various ways of making non-Troops count as ObSec. A Warlord Trait that the Chaplain can have, for one.
DoktaRoksta wrote: I got a couple of very noob questions if you will indulge me.
I’m still not clear on obsec, if I have 10 Kommandos on an objective and my buddy has 1 marine chaplain on a bike who holds the objective? This happened in the last game and he claimed the objective, would there be any difference if the Kommandos were Boyz?
I play Goffs so don’t have the DeffSkulls obsec trait.
Secondly, any tips on speeding the games up. I have played about 8 games now and they are painfully slow. I know it may speed up as I get to know my units better but right now it’s really holding up the size of the armies as the games don’t get finished.
It may also mean that my force isn’t Killy enough so I’m happy to take tips on that too.
Unless the Chaplain had Objective Secured, it's based entirely on the number of models within 3".
If only one side has Objective Secured, they control that objective.
If both sides have Objective Secured, then it goes back to number of models.
Marines have various ways of making non-Troops count as ObSec. A Warlord Trait that the Chaplain can have, for one.
Thanks for the response.
He said all marines possess ObSec and I don’t know their codex enough to contradict him. I don’t think he was relying on a warlord trait, just a general statement that all marines have obsec. He plays ultramarines if that makes a difference.
DoktaRoksta wrote: I got a couple of very noob questions if you will indulge me.
I’m still not clear on obsec, if I have 10 Kommandos on an objective and my buddy has 1 marine chaplain on a bike who holds the objective? This happened in the last game and he claimed the objective, would there be any difference if the Kommandos were Boyz?
I play Goffs so don’t have the DeffSkulls obsec trait.
Secondly, any tips on speeding the games up. I have played about 8 games now and they are painfully slow. I know it may speed up as I get to know my units better but right now it’s really holding up the size of the armies as the games don’t get finished.
It may also mean that my force isn’t Killy enough so I’m happy to take tips on that too.
Unless the Chaplain had Objective Secured, it's based entirely on the number of models within 3".
If only one side has Objective Secured, they control that objective.
If both sides have Objective Secured, then it goes back to number of models.
Marines have various ways of making non-Troops count as ObSec. A Warlord Trait that the Chaplain can have, for one.
Thanks for the response.
He said all marines possess ObSec and I don’t know their codex enough to contradict him. I don’t think he was relying on a warlord trait, just a general statement that all marines have obsec. He plays ultramarines if that makes a difference.
He's either mistaken or cheating.
Only Troops in a Marines Detachment have ObSec naturally. Custodes have more than that, but not Marines.
1. "Count as stationery" is not sufficient on it's own to allow a transport to move and disembark passengers.
2. You can only move and disembark passengers if either the transport or the unit on board has an explicit rule to allow move and disembark.
3. Even if you have a rule that allows move and disembark, you cannot then charge during the same turn.
Only part 1 refers to "count as stationary", which is irrelevant to Trukk Boyz, but Trukk Boyz is an explicit rule to allow move and disembark so qualifies for parts 2 and 3. To say that Trukk Boyz is given a pass because it isn't a count as stationary rule misses the point - as part 1 clarifies that count as stationary is never relevant for move and disembark, part 3 must be a blanket rule.
Totally understand why you'd think that as it's layed out in a very confusing fashion. The statement that "even if you have a rule that allows move and disembark you cannot charge this turn" is actually part 7 of 9 subsections that refer to "rules that count as remaining stationary" The 9 subsections are even pre emptied by the statement "the following rules apply to these types of rules" so the inability to charge after disembarking only refers to scenarios where previously people could have argued that their ultramarine primaris who just disembarked from a moved impulsor (and who as a result of the impulsor rules wouldn't be able to charge) are able to charge as a result of their ultramarine rules which mean they count as stationary.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
EmperorForearm wrote: Rare Rules Shooting While Embarked #9 Transports under the effects of a dice roll modifier bestow the modifier to the embarked units ranged attacks.
Trukk Boy warboss inside trukk with lootas, flash gits etc unit now officially buffs the shooty unit.
Wow... That's going to take some analysis but... You may be right
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also does that modifier on a transport vehicle now bestow the additional-1 ap to the passenger if a speed waaagh is called?
CaptainO wrote: Totally understand why you'd think that as it's layed out in a very confusing fashion. The statement that "even if you have a rule that allows move and disembark you cannot charge this turn" is actually part 7 of 9 subsections that refer to "rules that count as remaining stationary" The 9 subsections are even pre emptied by the statement "the following rules apply to these types of rules" so the inability to charge after disembarking only refers to scenarios where previously people could have argued that their ultramarine primaris who just disembarked from a moved impulsor (and who as a result of the impulsor rules wouldn't be able to charge) are able to charge as a result of their ultramarine rules which mean they count as stationary.
Sorry but I still disagree, I still think it blocks Trukk Boyz charging. In spoilers is the long answer for why I think it applies, but the short answer is that Trukk Boyz is implicitly a counts as stationary rule, as it allows a transport that has moved to perform an ability that normally requires it to remain stationary, which per point 5 of the "Rules that count as remaining stationary" rare rules is enough to qualify it for this section:
5. Such rules mean that any other rules (abilities, Stratagems etc.)
that are used or triggered when a unit Remains Stationary (e.g.
Grinding Advance) can be used/are triggered.
Spoiler:
Point 8 of the "Count as stationary" rare rules totally shuts down any possibility of Ultramarines charging out of Impulsors, if that is the only point of the FAQ it needs no further detail. The abilities that Ultramarines may or may not have are not relevant to Orks here.
8. If a unit has disembarked from a Transport model, rules
which allow that unit to be treated as though it has Remained
Stationary have no effect.
Point 7 specifically calls out that you need something other than counts as stationary to allow a unit to disembark after moving, and if you make use of it then you cannot charge.
7. Even if a Transport model is subject to such a rule, embarked
models still cannot disembark from that Transport during the
Movement phase if that Transport has already moved, unless
that Transport (or the models embarked within it) have a rule
that explicitly allows them to disembark after the Transport
has moved (but if a unit does so, it cannot then charge during
the same turn).
Even if I am wrong and Trukk Boyz is not equivalent to a counts as stationary rule, what is the point of the green highlighted text at all if this is purely a "counts as stationary" only clarification? You already cannot count as stationary the transport itself into unloading units, and disembarked units themselves cannot count as stationary. There is literally no point to the highlighted section other than to block Trukk Boyz style rules.
CaptainO wrote: Totally understand why you'd think that as it's layed out in a very confusing fashion. The statement that "even if you have a rule that allows move and disembark you cannot charge this turn" is actually part 7 of 9 subsections that refer to "rules that count as remaining stationary" The 9 subsections are even pre emptied by the statement "the following rules apply to these types of rules" so the inability to charge after disembarking only refers to scenarios where previously people could have argued that their ultramarine primaris who just disembarked from a moved impulsor (and who as a result of the impulsor rules wouldn't be able to charge) are able to charge as a result of their ultramarine rules which mean they count as stationary.
Sorry but I still disagree, I still think it blocks Trukk Boyz charging. In spoilers is the long answer for why I think it applies, but the short answer is that Trukk Boyz is implicitly a counts as stationary rule, as it allows a transport that has moved to perform an ability that normally requires it to remain stationary, which per point 5 of the "Rules that count as remaining stationary" rare rules is enough to qualify it for this section:
5. Such rules mean that any other rules (abilities, Stratagems etc.)
that are used or triggered when a unit Remains Stationary (e.g.
Grinding Advance) can be used/are triggered.
Spoiler:
Point 8 of the "Count as stationary" rare rules totally shuts down any possibility of Ultramarines charging out of Impulsors, if that is the only point of the FAQ it needs no further detail. The abilities that Ultramarines may or may not have are not relevant to Orks here.
8. If a unit has disembarked from a Transport model, rules
which allow that unit to be treated as though it has Remained
Stationary have no effect.
Point 7 specifically calls out that you need something other than counts as stationary to allow a unit to disembark after moving, and if you make use of it then you cannot charge.
7. Even if a Transport model is subject to such a rule, embarked
models still cannot disembark from that Transport during the
Movement phase if that Transport has already moved, unless
that Transport (or the models embarked within it) have a rule
that explicitly allows them to disembark after the Transport
has moved (but if a unit does so, it cannot then charge during
the same turn).
Even if I am wrong and Trukk Boyz is not equivalent to a counts as stationary rule, what is the point of the green highlighted text at all if this is purely a "counts as stationary" only clarification? You already cannot count as stationary the transport itself into unloading units, and disembarked units themselves cannot count as stationary. There is literally no point to the highlighted section other than to block Trukk Boyz style rules.
EmperorForearm wrote: Rare Rules Shooting While Embarked #9 Transports under the effects of a dice roll modifier bestow the modifier to the embarked units ranged attacks.
Trukk Boy warboss inside trukk with lootas, flash gits etc unit now officially buffs the shooty unit.
lol no they do not, the restrictions are part of the modifier.
Example ability = +1 to hit for models in this unit armed with heavy weapons
If applied to a transport the transport gets +1 to hit for heavy weapons and so do embarked models with heavy weapons - models with assault weapons do not. The restriction in this case is the unit has to be armed with heavy weapons
For trukk boys the ability = TRUKK model makes a ranged attack, add 1 to that attack’s hit roll. The restriction in this case is the unit has to be a trukk.
so no +1 unless that embarked unit is another trukk
I'm getting into 9th for the first time, I haven't played 40k since The Sickness began.
It looks like Deffkoptas are kind of awful right now - Am I missing something? Heavy Weapons on a mobile platform means they're mostly going to be hitting on 6s, defeating the purpose of a mobile firing battery. Tankbustas at least get a BS boost against vehicles to offset the penalty; Deffkoptas feel a little left out in the cold in comparison. Weighing 5 Tankbustas in a Trukk versus 3 Deffkoptas, the Deffkoptas can fly and are a little better in close combat, but the Tankbusta Trukk is more durable, only loses firepower after soaking ten wounds instead of four, has greater accuracy, has more shots against units with 5+ models and only marginally fewer shots otherwise. (We could also compare 6 Deffkoptas to a Battlewagon with 10 Tankbustas, which has similar results.)
This. Deffkoptas are vehicles, not infantry.
So 2d3 shots at 5+ to hit per model even after move.
And since they are vehicles, they also benefit the additional - 1 AP of the speedwaagh.
Waaaghpower wrote: I'm getting into 9th for the first time, I haven't played 40k since The Sickness began.
It looks like Deffkoptas are kind of awful right now - Am I missing something? Heavy Weapons on a mobile platform means they're mostly going to be hitting on 6s, defeating the purpose of a mobile firing battery. Tankbustas at least get a BS boost against vehicles to offset the penalty; Deffkoptas feel a little left out in the cold in comparison. Weighing 5 Tankbustas in a Trukk versus 3 Deffkoptas, the Deffkoptas can fly and are a little better in close combat, but the Tankbusta Trukk is more durable, only loses firepower after soaking ten wounds instead of four, has greater accuracy, has more shots against units with 5+ models and only marginally fewer shots otherwise. (We could also compare 6 Deffkoptas to a Battlewagon with 10 Tankbustas, which has similar results.)
Am I missing something?
yes, ur missing this, potential for 6d3 mortal wounds on a charge =6-18 mortal wounds
No worries-there’s lot of little changes you need to learn.
I'm really excited to start playing - so far every change and update I've read kicks ass. SO many quality of life improvements and just plain fun mechanics that I missed having in 8th edition. (Auras are fine and all, but they can't beat a proper Waaagh!)
yes, ur missing this, potential for 6d3 mortal wounds on a charge =6-18 mortal wounds
I must have missed this, did Speed Freeks get turned into an army of renown in one of the campaign books? Also, it's a bit disappointing the Stratagem is improved for Scrapjets but no bonus for Deffrollas
On the subject of general 9th changes - It seems like Orks got major buffs across the board, excepting certain OP/cheese (and probably unintended) comboes like Loota Bombs.
Is my impression correct? And what are other armies looking like - was this done to bring Orks in line with factions like Space Marines, or did everyone get similar buffs?
Waaaghpower wrote: On the subject of general 9th changes - It seems like Orks got major buffs across the board, excepting certain OP/cheese (and probably unintended) comboes like Loota Bombs.
Is my impression correct? And what are other armies looking like - was this done to bring Orks in line with factions like Space Marines, or did everyone get similar buffs?
I would say we got buffed when it comes to baseline datasheets for most units, barring a few exceptions (primarily grots and boyz). However, kustom jobs and stratagems got pretty gutted for the most part. So it was overall a net win. However, green tide (or at least having meaningful large boyz units) got shanked in its sleep and any notion of DreadWAAAGH being viable died as well. In most cases 9th ed codices have been very strong, barring early codices like Necrons and SM. I would say that we're just about upper middle tier, since we still rely on skew/alpha strike lists, but we don't have the hyper efficiency of drukhari to trade up like they do and we don't have the resiliency of other factions.
Madjob wrote: They do not, that rule does not modify a die roll made by the Truck ergo the rare rule does not apply.
Yup you're right. Deffo don't get the bonus for speed waaagh as it doesn't modify the roll.
I do think the presence of a trukk boy warboss does give the trukk +1 to hit (modify the roll) so therefore based on the new rare rule would give embarked units the same +1 to hit. +1 to lootas could be good. +1 to ssag would be better (+2 for a freeboota would compensate for the -1 for moving and shooting a heavy weapon)
Waaaghpower wrote: On the subject of general 9th changes - It seems like Orks got major buffs across the board, excepting certain OP/cheese (and probably unintended) comboes like Loota Bombs.
Is my impression correct? And what are other armies looking like - was this done to bring Orks in line with factions like Space Marines, or did everyone get similar buffs?
I would say we got buffed when it comes to baseline datasheets for most units, barring a few exceptions (primarily grots and boyz). However, kustom jobs and stratagems got pretty gutted for the most part. So it was overall a net win. However, green tide (or at least having meaningful large boyz units) got shanked in its sleep and any notion of DreadWAAAGH being viable died as well. In most cases 9th ed codices have been very strong, barring early codices like Necrons and SM. I would say that we're just about upper middle tier, since we still rely on skew/alpha strike lists, but we don't have the hyper efficiency of drukhari to trade up like they do and we don't have the resiliency of other factions.
I know you can't bring as many or units given the price bump, but did the performance drop off that harshly even with the buff to Shootas and toughness? My gut feeling coming from 8th is that the bump from T4 to T5 makes a whole host of anti-infantry weapons a lot less useful and increase the durability of boyz quite a bit, but I could be overestimating the value in my head.
I really can't see Grots being worth 5 points though. That just seems absurd to me and is the main change I don't understand at this point.
Waaaghpower wrote: On the subject of general 9th changes - It seems like Orks got major buffs across the board, excepting certain OP/cheese (and probably unintended) comboes like Loota Bombs.
Is my impression correct? And what are other armies looking like - was this done to bring Orks in line with factions like Space Marines, or did everyone get similar buffs?
I would say we got buffed when it comes to baseline datasheets for most units, barring a few exceptions (primarily grots and boyz). However, kustom jobs and stratagems got pretty gutted for the most part. So it was overall a net win. However, green tide (or at least having meaningful large boyz units) got shanked in its sleep and any notion of DreadWAAAGH being viable died as well. In most cases 9th ed codices have been very strong, barring early codices like Necrons and SM. I would say that we're just about upper middle tier, since we still rely on skew/alpha strike lists, but we don't have the hyper efficiency of drukhari to trade up like they do and we don't have the resiliency of other factions.
I know you can't bring as many or units given the price bump, but did the performance drop off that harshly even with the buff to Shootas and toughness? My gut feeling coming from 8th is that the bump from T4 to T5 makes a whole host of anti-infantry weapons a lot less useful and increase the durability of boyz quite a bit, but I could be overestimating the value in my head.
I really can't see Grots being worth 5 points though. That just seems absurd to me and is the main change I don't understand at this point.
With the price hike boyz received to 9 points and losing not only Unstoppable Green Tide strat but our baseline mob rule (we don't have Ld30 mobz anymore) and even the +1A for having 20 or more boyz being taken away, boyz have been supplanted by specialists with more efficiency and use like MSU Stormboyz and Kommandos. The fact that they suffer so strongly from morale since they've made Breakin Eads a 2CP strat means that even killing 6-7 boyz from a full mob can result in a significant amount of the rest of the mob fleeing since they're almost guaranteed to fail morale. This means an opponent no longer needs to overcommit to killing a full squad of boyz that can autopass morale so they can use the 3CP to respond elsewhere on the board, which means chip damage will inflict surprising amount of damage on several large boyz squads, which is very easy to do in the current meta where killing potential has gone through the roof. The KFF also has become nerfed to only have a once per game 9" bubble of 5++ save, which is not enough to save the current boyz from the amount of shooting this edition. Furthermore, shootas are basically obselete as a unit, because having one extra shot at 9" is incredibly lacklustre, especially on a B5+ platform that will rarely have the opportunity to get that close to an enemy more than once, and can no longer advance and shoot with them. Choppas are far superior in comparison, especially with extra attack and AP provided by it. Currently you'll only see Trukk Boyz being used if possible, simply because of their mobility and ability to apply pressure to a flank rather than their ability to do meaningful damage. Unfortunately, boyz basically lack a role in the army beyond being basically a troop tax because they barely support what the rest of the army can do and the army itself no longer has tools that once made them an indispensable part of the army.
With the price hike boyz received to 9 points and losing not only Unstoppable Green Tide strat but our baseline mob rule (we don't have Ld30 mobz anymore) and even the +1A for having 20 or more boyz being taken away, boyz have been supplanted by specialists with more efficiency and use like MSU Stormboyz and Kommandos. The fact that they suffer so strongly from morale since they've made Breakin Eads a 2CP strat means that even killing 6-7 boyz from a full mob can result in a significant amount of the rest of the mob fleeing since they're almost guaranteed to fail morale. This means an opponent no longer needs to overcommit to killing a full squad of boyz that can autopass morale so they can use the 3CP to respond elsewhere on the board, which means chip damage will inflict surprising amount of damage on several large boyz squads, which is very easy to do in the current meta where killing potential has gone through the roof. The KFF also has become nerfed to only have a once per game 9" bubble of 5++ save, which is not enough to save the current boyz from the amount of shooting this edition. Furthermore, shootas are basically obselete as a unit, because having one extra shot at 9" is incredibly lacklustre, especially on a B5+ platform that will rarely have the opportunity to get that close to an enemy more than once, and can no longer advance and shoot with them. Choppas are far superior in comparison, especially with extra attack and AP provided by it. Currently you'll only see Trukk Boyz being used if possible, simply because of their mobility and ability to apply pressure to a flank rather than their ability to do meaningful damage. Unfortunately, boyz basically lack a role in the army beyond being basically a troop tax because they barely support what the rest of the army can do and the army itself no longer has tools that once made them an indispensable part of the army.
That all makes a lot of sense, thanks for explaining. I didn't notice the horde bonus attack was gone, and haven't been taking into account the sheer effect that nerfed stratagems and buffs can have.
With the price hike boyz received to 9 points and losing not only Unstoppable Green Tide strat but our baseline mob rule (we don't have Ld30 mobz anymore) and even the +1A for having 20 or more boyz being taken away, boyz have been supplanted by specialists with more efficiency and use like MSU Stormboyz and Kommandos. The fact that they suffer so strongly from morale since they've made Breakin Eads a 2CP strat means that even killing 6-7 boyz from a full mob can result in a significant amount of the rest of the mob fleeing since they're almost guaranteed to fail morale. This means an opponent no longer needs to overcommit to killing a full squad of boyz that can autopass morale so they can use the 3CP to respond elsewhere on the board, which means chip damage will inflict surprising amount of damage on several large boyz squads, which is very easy to do in the current meta where killing potential has gone through the roof. The KFF also has become nerfed to only have a once per game 9" bubble of 5++ save, which is not enough to save the current boyz from the amount of shooting this edition. Furthermore, shootas are basically obselete as a unit, because having one extra shot at 9" is incredibly lacklustre, especially on a B5+ platform that will rarely have the opportunity to get that close to an enemy more than once, and can no longer advance and shoot with them. Choppas are far superior in comparison, especially with extra attack and AP provided by it. Currently you'll only see Trukk Boyz being used if possible, simply because of their mobility and ability to apply pressure to a flank rather than their ability to do meaningful damage. Unfortunately, boyz basically lack a role in the army beyond being basically a troop tax because they barely support what the rest of the army can do and the army itself no longer has tools that once made them an indispensable part of the army.
That all makes a lot of sense, thanks for explaining. I didn't notice the horde bonus attack was gone, and haven't been taking into account the sheer effect that nerfed stratagems and buffs can have.
No problem! I honestly wish this wasn't the case, since I was always happy that Orks usually had very strong troops compared to some other armies (it was usually our elites that struggled) so it's very jarring to the see the flip over to toyz over boyz. For boyz to be relevant, they would need a complete rewrite of their current datasheet at the moment, they really don't do anything distinctly as a troops choice that other specialist boyz don't do. I think them actually splitting the datasheet between a dedicated shoota boyz and slugga boyz variant might actually be good to give them some sort of focus (though with the current new boyz kit being as dumb for loadouts as is, this is unlikely).
With the price hike boyz received to 9 points and losing not only Unstoppable Green Tide strat but our baseline mob rule (we don't have Ld30 mobz anymore) and even the +1A for having 20 or more boyz being taken away, boyz have been supplanted by specialists with more efficiency and use like MSU Stormboyz and Kommandos. The fact that they suffer so strongly from morale since they've made Breakin Eads a 2CP strat means that even killing 6-7 boyz from a full mob can result in a significant amount of the rest of the mob fleeing since they're almost guaranteed to fail morale. This means an opponent no longer needs to overcommit to killing a full squad of boyz that can autopass morale so they can use the 3CP to respond elsewhere on the board, which means chip damage will inflict surprising amount of damage on several large boyz squads, which is very easy to do in the current meta where killing potential has gone through the roof. The KFF also has become nerfed to only have a once per game 9" bubble of 5++ save, which is not enough to save the current boyz from the amount of shooting this edition. Furthermore, shootas are basically obselete as a unit, because having one extra shot at 9" is incredibly lacklustre, especially on a B5+ platform that will rarely have the opportunity to get that close to an enemy more than once, and can no longer advance and shoot with them. Choppas are far superior in comparison, especially with extra attack and AP provided by it. Currently you'll only see Trukk Boyz being used if possible, simply because of their mobility and ability to apply pressure to a flank rather than their ability to do meaningful damage. Unfortunately, boyz basically lack a role in the army beyond being basically a troop tax because they barely support what the rest of the army can do and the army itself no longer has tools that once made them an indispensable part of the army.
That all makes a lot of sense, thanks for explaining. I didn't notice the horde bonus attack was gone, and haven't been taking into account the sheer effect that nerfed stratagems and buffs can have.
No problem! I honestly wish this wasn't the case, since I was always happy that Orks usually had very strong troops compared to some other armies (it was usually our elites that struggled) so it's very jarring to the see the flip over to toyz over boyz. For boyz to be relevant, they would need a complete rewrite of their current datasheet at the moment, they really don't do anything distinctly as a troops choice that other specialist boyz don't do. I think them actually splitting the datasheet between a dedicated shoota boyz and slugga boyz variant might actually be good to give them some sort of focus (though with the current new boyz kit being as dumb for loadouts as is, this is unlikely).
I wouldn't be surprised if this was deliberate on GW's part to try and speed up gameplay by quietly discouraging horde armies. I noticed a decent handful of changes that speed up the game in 9th edition, (removing universal Overwatch, for example,) which I'm mostly in favor of, though actually nerfing horde units is a step too far IMO.
So i think i have finalised my Speed Mob list for the upcoming tournament next weekend.
Because the double Deffkopta Evil Sunz list has been running out of CP in a lot of my test games and 1 Outrider with 6 FA slots were a bit too few for my taste i will go for the Blood Axes version.
Also i realised playing more than 1 Mob of Deffkoptas without Evil Sunz and maximum Buggies made Bring it Down far to easy while it made getting maximum secondary points much harder. Therefore i switched for a bit more Bikes - this will help a little with Good Bitz and Retrieve as more solid choices in case i run into a matchup with bad kill secondaries.
The List:
Spoiler:
2 Outriders / 8 CP Warboss on Bike (I`ve got a plan lads)
Wartrike (Warlord, Speed King, Finkin`Cap)
3 Squigbuggies
2 Scrapjets
1 Shokkjump Dragsta
1 Snazzwagon
5 Koptas
5 Bikers
5 Bikers
4 Bikers
2 Wazboms (both fully equipped)
Da plan:
2/3 games i had to put my Wazboms in strategic reserve, tried to gamble a few times but lost both fliers twice. Not gonna do that in a tournament setting, thus the BA trait to safe me those 3 precious CP.
Overall the Warboss has been rather disappointing in Speed Mob, thats why i did`t go for a offensive trait and skipped the Killa Klaw. Might invest one CP for it but honestly i rarely missed it and that extra CP has been more usefull most of the time.
I love the Dakka of 3 Scrapjets, but they have proven to be the target number one besides Koptas and Wazboms. That means i have to play them far more defensivly, especially with the Koptas hiding and the Wazboms being in reserve or dead already. You do not want to be them one of your 3 TTL units, thats why i will go for 2 of them.
Maxing out TTL is more important than the extra output from #3. Also i managed to loose the 3rd Scrapjet to morale - not cool and you really don`t want to waste 2 CP for an autopass in Speed Mob.
So my 3 TTL units are the Squigbuggies, the Koptas and 1 Wazbom, and i managed to score it quite good.
I really like the Boosta Blastas MW`s and his anti infantry capacity, but i don`t feel thats something you really lack in Speed Mob, so i went for the Snazzwagon and his native -1 to hit, which has helped to keep him alive a little longer in some cases. Anything that helps you scoring Engage a little longer is good. And i know, it might not be the best secondary for the low unit number count, but i ended up with Engage 2/3 games so everything that helpes with that is good i guess. Scoring 10 VP is quite duable and if things run smooth a scored above 12 VP as well which was more in almost every game if i compare the outcome with possible other secondaries.
The Dragsta is a great objective grabber and adds a lot with his tellyporting and reliable shooting. I tried to free 15 points as much as possible for squighide tires, so he has a little more reach for those midfield objectives.
The Bikers are solid. A little bigger squads have helped a lot for durability and they tend to soak up lots of dakka.
Squigbuggies still do what they did before, not gonna leave them behind. Besides lots of chipping damage they have proven to help a lot with primary scoring as they are really good in deleting MSU campers. The only 2 times the last 10 games i lost them were the 2 games i actually got tabled, so solid 5 TTL points as well.
CP wise I´ll start with 8 and get another 5 in game and about 2 for thinkin Cap, that will leave me with about 14-15 overall and i guess 10-12 for the first 3 turns, as 2 of the 3 missions tinker with CP.
Gonna have a game against the new Tau Tuesday and have to send in my list thursday, so theres still a little room left for last minute tweaking.
Might leave 1 Biker to go for 5 + 5 + 3 or leave the non-TTL`s Wazboms KFF and take squighide tires for the Dragsta instead and / or spend 1 more CP on Killa Klaw.
Interesting! I go totaly oposite direction on local RTT with my Speed Mob!
Spoiler:
MEK TOMSUG SPEEDY SPEED MOB OF SPEEEDY SPEEED FREEAKS of the speedy speed
Secondary Objectives Information
No Prisoners: 3
To the Last Units: Rukkatrukk Squigbuggies, Megatrakk Scrapjets, DeffKoptas
Titan Hunter: 0
Bring it Down: 21
Assasination: 4
Abhor the Witch: 0
Wazbom Blastajet [10 PL, 210pts]: 2x Tellyport Mega-Blastas [20pts], Blastajet Force Field [20pts], Smasha Gun
Wazbom Blastajet [10 PL, 210pts]: 2x Tellyport Mega-Blastas [20pts], Blastajet Force Field [20pts], Smasha Gun
++ Total: [97 PL, 12CP, 1,995] ++
I focus more on the the fast moving to the right place and killing the right stuff in the right moment. More to deny the scoring.
The most elite list I' ve every played I guess
We can compare on the end the results.
Few points
- I keep Wazbooms as cheap as possible, never take the Supa shootas. Wounds per point ratio.
- I had a very bad experience in makeing wazbooms TTL. Never survived - agree with the warboss - both hq options are supporting characters and objective grabers. That is all.
- my list is very much formed by what models I' m actualy able to finish. The best setting will have propably the warboss and one more biker.
- I have a good experience in unbalanced warbiker mobs. You know - if we invest in advance&charge trait and have a strategem to boost them in charge and deal a MW in charge, do it properly - so in the max squad. On the other hand, some objective / action scoring units can benefit from being smaller. And why waste the points on unit sitting and doing the bitz.
In my test games i basically ran the same list you posted with ES. Well, there isn`t much variance tbh if you go for a single Outrider.^^
But overall my BA games went better than my ES games, allthough it has not been by a big margin.
- I keep Wazbooms as cheap as possible, never take the Supa shootas. Wounds per point ratio.
Yeah they are totally fine as "cheap" source of antitank, but i really like the flexibility to kill MSU stuff in hiding or snipe a weak character with those 12 shots.
Also its a nice backup to finish something off that your other big guns failed to kill completely.
I`d say its not mandatory and it won`t do much most of the time, but just one character kill or a cleared objective can make the difference.
The supa shootas are the first thing i cut if i need to free up 10-40 points though.
- I had a very bad experience in makeing wazbooms TTL. Never survived
Yeah i would never build a list that had two Wazboms as TTL units. But 1 can sneak in later and survive, just alpha strike the most dangerous anti tank stuff early on.
But depends on opponent and army list.
- I have a good experience in unbalanced warbiker mobs. You know - if we invest in advance&charge trait and have a strategem to boost them in charge and deal a MW in charge, do it properly - so in the max squad. On the other hand, some objective / action scoring units can benefit from being smaller. And why waste the points on unit sitting and doing the bitz.
True. ES like at least one squad of 9. Otherwise 1-2 x 5 is a good backup plan for Retrieve i guess.
3 x 3 can work on Good Bitz, depends a bit on the mission and the objective. With BA i really liked 3 x 4-5. Some extra resilience but still small enough to sneak around, do actions and have enough Dakka / melee to hurt something small.
Would lootas be viable in a trukk with a nob with waagh banner or some other trukk boy character to activate it?
So 10 lootas, 1 trukk boy character. Reduced price and they hit on 4s now due to faq clearing up things.
I dont think so but what do you think?
Or the other way around, maybe 10 cheap boys that stays in the trukk standing on an objective, and a shokk attack gun inside of it that hits on 3s? Or a big mek in mega armor.
You can only make Boys, Nobs or a Warboss Trukkboys, sadly not Big Meks.
So the cheapest version would be 70 points for a Banner Nob, 70 for the Trukk und another 150 for the lootas. So 290 for 16 shots (24 in 24")
Even with +1 to hit i don`t see this being competetive, same for Flash Gits.
Might be fun to get yourself a 3+ Shock Attack Gun just for the lols but otherwise skip.
The only thing close to competetive might be to get a Ded shiny shoota or Straight shoota in the fun as well to drive around and snipe on 3+.
Or maybe some Tankbustas to hit vehicles on 4+ on the move?
But I still remain unsure about whether -1ap is a modifier. Like, whats classified as a modifier? Because with the trukk boy clarifications and -1ap given to infantry in vehicles (which i dont know but maybe?) Then at least an infantry shooting list could be a semi competitive thing. Maybe?
Waaaghpower wrote: On the subject of general 9th changes - It seems like Orks got major buffs across the board, excepting certain OP/cheese (and probably unintended) comboes like Loota Bombs.
Is my impression correct? And what are other armies looking like - was this done to bring Orks in line with factions like Space Marines, or did everyone get similar buffs?
Generally speaking, most ork units received pretty nice upgrades in their data sheets while losing a lot of benefits in stratagems. For the most part our stratagems are bad. However, a few units did not receive these upgrades and in fact took a lot of nerfs. Boyz and grots took it on the chin pretty heavily. Boyz went up to 9ppm, gained +1T but Mob rule is functionally useless, Ere We Go got nerfed, lost +1 to attack in large mobz, the buffs they usually took got significantly worse (KFF, Painboy, stratagems are completely gone, Weirdboy got heavily nerfed in terms of reliability, Evil Sunz losing +1 to charge etc) Grots...well, they got +1T but they went up to 5ppm and lost obsec. They are arguably the worst troops unit in the entire game, with their only selling point being an MSU troop tax will only run you 50pts as opposed to boyz who aren't much better at 90.
As far as the loota bomb, that was effectively killed in 8th when they changed mob rule to only impact boyz. All subsequent nerfs to lootas has been knee jerk reactions by the same crowd of muppets that were screaming to nerf Buggies, kommandos and Beastboss on Squigies. AKA, anytime orkz have anything competitive, the meta freaks out and screams nerfs. Drukhari/Ad-Mech have been dominating for most of 9th, but have received minor nerfs, Orkz won 1 GT and the entire community freaked to the point where we got a patch nerf.
Going into shootas. They did not receive a buff. No matter what "play testers" and "experts" in 40k say, they did not receive a buff and if they say they did you can safely ignore anything that person has to say about Orkz.
Shoota boyz went from Assault 2 18' range to Dakka 3(2) 18' range. So now they can't advance and shoot and to get that "bonus" +1 attack at BS5 they have to get within 9' of their target. Boyz are Movement 5, they are slow. They want to be advancing, now they can't and shoot. Furthermore, even if you do get them into 9' range to shoot, you would have been better off advancing that turn and using Choppas to assault instead. 10 Shoota boyz in dakka range do 10 hits, 5 wounds and 1.6dmg to a Marine. So not even 1 guaranteed Dead Marine. On the flipside of that, if you gave up shootas and advanced with choppas 10 choppa boyz get 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 5dmg to a Marine, or 2.5 dead Marines. if its a WAAAGH turn that goes up to 40 attacks, 26.6 hits, 13.3 wounds and 6.7dmg for 3dead Marines and change.
To put it more bluntly, Shootas suck and anyone who says otherwise is lying or in need of a refresher on basic math.
Beardedragon wrote: Would lootas be viable in a trukk with a shokk attack gun, big mek in mega armor, nob with waagh banner or someone Else as trukk boys to activate it?
So 10 lootas, 1 trukk boy character. Reduced price and they hit on 4s now due to faq clearing up things.
I dont think so but what do you think?
No. 10 lootas is now 150pts, the cheapest character that can be a "Trukk Boy" is Nob with Banner. Thats 70pts, the trukk is 70pts. So you are paying 290pts to get 8 lootas BS4 which works out to 8-12 hits a turn depending on range. That just isn't worth it.
I think the best combo/wombo for this would still be inefficient for its required points cost. Cheapest I can think off the top of my head to make this work is the banner nob and trukk so you are talking about adding 140pts to a shooting unit to buff its hit rate by 50%. Just isn't worth it.
Grotrebel wrote: So i think i have finalised my Speed Mob list for the upcoming tournament next weekend.
Because the double Deffkopta Evil Sunz list has been running out of CP in a lot of my test games and 1 Outrider with 6 FA slots were a bit too few for my taste i will go for the Blood Axes version.
Also i realised playing more than 1 Mob of Deffkoptas without Evil Sunz and maximum Buggies made Bring it Down far to easy while it made getting maximum secondary points much harder. Therefore i switched for a bit more Bikes - this will help a little with Good Bitz and Retrieve as more solid choices in case i run into a matchup with bad kill secondaries.
The List:
Spoiler:
2 Outriders / 8 CP Warboss on Bike (I`ve got a plan lads)
Wartrike (Warlord, Speed King, Finkin`Cap)
3 Squigbuggies
2 Scrapjets
1 Shokkjump Dragsta
1 Snazzwagon
5 Koptas
5 Bikers
5 Bikers
4 Bikers
2 Wazboms (both fully equipped)
Da plan:
2/3 games i had to put my Wazboms in strategic reserve, tried to gamble a few times but lost both fliers twice. Not gonna do that in a tournament setting, thus the BA trait to safe me those 3 precious CP.
Overall the Warboss has been rather disappointing in Speed Mob, thats why i did`t go for a offensive trait and skipped the Killa Klaw. Might invest one CP for it but honestly i rarely missed it and that extra CP has been more usefull most of the time.
I love the Dakka of 3 Scrapjets, but they have proven to be the target number one besides Koptas and Wazboms. That means i have to play them far more defensivly, especially with the Koptas hiding and the Wazboms being in reserve or dead already. You do not want to be them one of your 3 TTL units, thats why i will go for 2 of them.
Maxing out TTL is more important than the extra output from #3. Also i managed to loose the 3rd Scrapjet to morale - not cool and you really don`t want to waste 2 CP for an autopass in Speed Mob.
So my 3 TTL units are the Squigbuggies, the Koptas and 1 Wazbom, and i managed to score it quite good.
I really like the Boosta Blastas MW`s and his anti infantry capacity, but i don`t feel thats something you really lack in Speed Mob, so i went for the Snazzwagon and his native -1 to hit, which has helped to keep him alive a little longer in some cases. Anything that helps you scoring Engage a little longer is good. And i know, it might not be the best secondary for the low unit number count, but i ended up with Engage 2/3 games so everything that helpes with that is good i guess. Scoring 10 VP is quite duable and if things run smooth a scored above 12 VP as well which was more in almost every game if i compare the outcome with possible other secondaries.
The Dragsta is a great objective grabber and adds a lot with his tellyporting and reliable shooting. I tried to free 15 points as much as possible for squighide tires, so he has a little more reach for those midfield objectives.
The Bikers are solid. A little bigger squads have helped a lot for durability and they tend to soak up lots of dakka.
Squigbuggies still do what they did before, not gonna leave them behind. Besides lots of chipping damage they have proven to help a lot with primary scoring as they are really good in deleting MSU campers. The only 2 times the last 10 games i lost them were the 2 games i actually got tabled, so solid 5 TTL points as well.
CP wise I´ll start with 8 and get another 5 in game and about 2 for thinkin Cap, that will leave me with about 14-15 overall and i guess 10-12 for the first 3 turns, as 2 of the 3 missions tinker with CP.
Gonna have a game against the new Tau Tuesday and have to send in my list thursday, so theres still a little room left for last minute tweaking.
Might leave 1 Biker to go for 5 + 5 + 3 or leave the non-TTL`s Wazboms KFF and take squighide tires for the Dragsta instead and / or spend 1 more CP on Killa Klaw.
Very interested in how BLOOD AXES fair with a speed mob. I've found the melee warbikes underwhelming and binned the KILLa klaw too. Have you ever managed to keep wazbomm alive for TTL?
But I still remain unsure about whether -1ap is a modifier. Like, whats classified as a modifier? Because with the trukk boy clarifications and -1ap given to infantry in vehicles (which i dont know but maybe?) Then at least an infantry shooting list could be a semi competitive thing. Maybe?
I was hoping the same but the new rules specify "modify dice rolls" so speed waaagh doesn't look like it's effects passengers. Its still terribly worded. (Additional-1ap technically does modify a roll made when a ranged attack is made i.e. the save roll has to be 1 higher) the rules even state "modifier to hit roll, wound roll, etc" what is the etc!?!?!
Goonhammer seem to think not but again theyre in no way infallible (my mates and I do tend to blanket play their interpretation as it removes any ambiguity) still it would be nice if GW just made stuff clearer.
Very interested in how BLOOD AXES fair with a speed mob. I've found the melee warbikes underwhelming and binned the KILLa klaw too. Have you ever managed to keep wazbomm alive for TTL?
Yeah the Warbikes are more of an utility unit than real damage dealers. If no terrain or extra defensive buffs are involved they will do about 10-12 wounds to infantry which isn`t bad, but as soon as hit modifiers, light cover or stuff like storm shields get involved their damage shrinks by a lot.
For me they are a distraction unit that gets to do engage or score otherwise while soaking up damage and occasionally killing stuff.
I really wish they would update the Warboss on Bike and Nob Bikers so you could get +1 to hit in melee and actually build a fun and more melee heavy Speed Mob.
About TTL on the Wazbom, it actually has. But to be fair, thats mostly in games that are decided by turn 2-3 when the Speed Mob has dealt too much damage for the opponent to recover and deal back any meaningfull damage.
There have been closer games though, in which i held back the TTL Wazbom until turn 3 because there was too much good antitank left turn 2.
But since my lists always have at least 1 non-TTL Wazbom i can get that one salvo of Dakka for sure before the other one arrives.
Sure thats 2 turns of not shooting but on the other hand you can counter other reserves and it will (probably) pay off with 5 VP.
I play often against Necs and he likes to put fliers and heavy Destroyers in reserve too, so in that case coming in turn 3, especially if i go second is quite an advantage.
I still think it`s the best TTL combination for BA. ES is a no brainer with Drive by dakka and 2 squads of Koptas.
Da Boomer with 4 BS and Lobba gets you to 195 points, so you could go for Koptas, Squigbuggies and him and just yeet your Wazboms in, but he won`t have an invul unless you go for a regular Gunwagon with Forktress, but thats some really bad shooting you`re getting for 200 points.
To the Last, which is a secondary objective you can take where you get 5 VP for each unit of the 3 most expensive units in your army that survives till the very end of the game.
No. 10 lootas is now 150pts, the cheapest character that can be a "Trukk Boy" is Nob with Banner. Thats 70pts, the trukk is 70pts. So you are paying 290pts to get 8 lootas BS4 which works out to 8-12 hits a turn depending on range. That just isn't worth it.
I think the best combo/wombo for this would still be inefficient for its required points cost. Cheapest I can think off the top of my head to make this work is the banner nob and trukk so you are talking about adding 140pts to a shooting unit to buff its hit rate by 50%. Just isn't worth it.
Yeah, the nob can have the shiny shoota which adds some firepower, although it's kinda wasted on a BS5+ guy. But 290 points is basically 3 scrapjets which are overall at least 2x more resilient than lootas and banner nob in a trukk, have actual melee ability and fire way more shots, also quality ones.
I'm currently struggling with secondaries. I play freebooterz speedwaaagh (not army of renown) with MSU. Most expensive units are a pair of scrapjets, kannonwagon and the 2x5 warbikes. So no good options for TTL. I'm not a fan of Good Bitz as well, since I prefer mid sized units of bikes to min ones. Retrieve isn't the autotake it used to be, now it doesn't seem to pay much. I'll keep engage though, and typically a secondary that I pick is a kill based one.
EmperorForearm wrote: Rare Rules Shooting While Embarked #9 Transports under the effects of a dice roll modifier bestow the modifier to the embarked units ranged attacks.
Trukk Boy warboss inside trukk with lootas, flash gits etc unit now officially buffs the shooty unit.
lol no they do not, the restrictions are part of the modifier.
Example ability = +1 to hit for models in this unit armed with heavy weapons
If applied to a transport the transport gets +1 to hit for heavy weapons and so do embarked models with heavy weapons - models with assault weapons do not. The restriction in this case is the unit has to be armed with heavy weapons
For trukk boys the ability = TRUKK model makes a ranged attack, add 1 to that attack’s hit roll. The restriction in this case is the unit has to be a trukk.
so no +1 unless that embarked unit is another trukk
The Trukk Boyz rule says "each time that Trukk model makes a ranged attack, add 1 to that attack's hit roll." This means that all ranged hit rolls made by the trukk are under an effect that modifies a dice roll when making a ranged attack [add 1 to that attack's hit roll].
The rare rule says "If a Transport model is under the effects of an ability which would apply a modifier to a dice roll made when making a ranged attack..."
I'm am still not 100% about exactly which disembark after move charges are allowed and which aren't, but the above seems super clear to me. Am I missing something?
Participated in a small 500 pt tourney with this list:
Deathskullz
Warboss (bbk, trukkboyz, killaklaw, k-skorcha, attack squig)
Big mek (-1 to wound, tellyporta, kmb with +1 shot, k rushing armor)
10 grots
2 meks
Skrapjet
Trukk (5++)
1st game was vs csm with termi-lord, shooty contemptor, obliterator, and around 10 csm with plasma.
Csm got 1st turn but shooting didn't go too well as I managed to hide from an obliterator. He just put 4 wounds into a skrapjet and 2 into a trukk. In return, orks shot down contemptor and one minimek managed to one-shot the obliterator thanks to 4+ from trukkboss and deathskull re rolls. Csm dealt another 4 wounds to a skrapjet and charged a trukk, almost surrounding it - but thanks to some terrain, there was enough place left to disembark boss, fall back with a trukk and finish csm off. If only he rolled 6+ to charge instead of 4, he'd surround a trukk and i'd have to emergency disembark meks and boss - and due to it being close to table edge, most of them would have been destroyed.
So, I lucked out after a positioning error and managed to win 55-0 (max score).
Next game was vs nihilakh neceons with a chronomancer with some 3+d3 shooty weapon, 10 immortals, 3scarabs, 3 skorpekh mellee robots and 5 deathmarks.
Necrons got 1st turn but didn't deal any damage cause orks managed to hide well and he just performed some mission actions instead. Skorpekhs teleported close to a skrapjet but didn't make a charge. Orks, in return, made a long-ass move with a trukkboss towards immortals, shot down all 3 skorpechs, even though, 1 of them managed to get up in the process - but skrapjet and 3 meks were enough to pound them to the ground. Skrapjet charged and killed his chronomancer and boss burned down 2 immortals with his flamer and than precisely 8 more with a help of bbk squig and klaw. After that, necrons scored a bit more and got wiped out.
55-11, orks win.
3d game was vs new tau with a very frightening crysis commander with a mellee gauntlet and mellee flamer that put ork bosses to pure shame. He rocks 4 s12 ap4 damage 3 attacks and additional 2+d6 s4 ap2 attacks - all hitting on 3+ with full re-rolls to-hit and to-wound. Furthermore, he's accompanied by 2 shield drones that are a part of the squad with 4++ and 2 wounds, and has an in-built 4++ himself. Also, his shooting is not much worse with the same 2+d6 non-autohitting s4 ap2 flamer, burst cannon and...something else. Hitting on 2+, of course with full re-rolls and extra ap when close to the enemy. Also, there was a sky ray that's also frightening with 2 markers, SMS and d3+1 s9 ap(a lot) rockets with 2d3 damage with some in-built to-hit, to-wound re-rolls. A devilfish and around 10 fire warriors.
Luckilly, orks went first. As the only way to win vs such overwhelming firepower with frightening mellee was an alpha-strike, we went for it. Trukkboss performed an impressive leap of faith towards a crysis commander managing to hide out of Los to not go down to overwatch yet remaining close enough to charge - and being a infantry, was able to move through a ruin on this charge move. Shooting killed a single drone and put 3 wounds into a devilfish. Boss charged commander and a skyray and killed a drone but...commander passed all 6 4++ saves he was forced to take. But here went brutal but cunning - with 6 more saves to take and now he failed 2 and died. Skrapjet deals a bunch of wounds to a devilfish in mellee leaving it with just 2. Skyray shoots boss down in mellee, fire warriors inflict 4 wounds to a trukk, skyray shoots a couple of wounds off a skrapjet but gets smashed in return. Ork turn comes and Tau get shot down with kustom mega blastas and skrapjet rokkits and finished off in mellee. The outliner was one of the mini meks - being a sniper that he is - shooting 8 wounds off a skyray.
55-0 orks win the tourney.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Trukkboyz warboss wad surprisingly good. He performed looooong charges, killed things with his klaw and squig and even sometimes buffed those meks.
Mini meks with their kustom mega sluggas are awesome units - especially run as deathskulls. Underrated by a long margin. They are hilarioisly swingy with their shooting but a 25 pt model that one-shots an obliterator, skorpekh or takes 8 wounds off a skyray is gold. Yeah, 12" radius but trukk helps. And they also score and perform actions, which is extremely importsntand, and can fix your vehicles from time to time. It'll be interesting to run them in larger games if I get enough elite slots.
- ignore -1 to hit
- S8 weapons like antitank
- S6 weapons like standard
Hell this will be a hard nut!
Kill the characters.
Hide as much as possible to DS.
They ignore -1!?!?! Uhoh
Played my first game in Peru against guard today. Dominated 97-40 as -1 causes them serious issues. Only dropped 3 points on get the good bits. I'm wondering with 3 squads of 8 warbikers if retrieve octarius data would be a better call. GtGBs is tough to max if the opponent has even one model on an objective. Objectives tend to be out in the open too.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Kooaei those deffskuls mini Meks in a trukk Boyz trukk with their +1 to hit (rerolling) could actually finally make them useful.
i dont think tau have easy access to ignoring modifiers on its own but they went back to the old markerlight system so they can very easily get +2 to hit to offset it.
Also Markerlights arent a shot anymore so they dont care about -1 to hit.
Vineheart01 wrote: i dont think tau have easy access to ignoring modifiers on its own but they went back to the old markerlight system so they can very easily get +2 to hit to offset it.
Also Markerlights arent a shot anymore so they dont care about -1 to hit.
Yeah, markerlights are quite straight forward and hard to stop besides killing the platform using them now. I feel like an alphork strike list is probably one of the better things to use against Tau because you want to pen them in their deployment and tag stuff before they have a chance to set up firing lanes and nuke our units with their superior firepower.
Kooaei those deffskuls mini Meks in a trukk Boyz trukk with their +1 to hit (rerolling) could actually finally make them useful.
Technically, they were shooting at bs 5 most of the time cause boss wanted to use that klaw ASAP. But deff skull rerolls were enough to make those kustom mega sluggas frightening for the opponent. It's a totally legit tactic in a smaller game - need to try it in larger ones.
Anyway, if anyone was searching for a way to utilise a trukkboy nob combo, mini meks are a good place to look. They kill way above their points and are not a waste to hop out of a trukk to score or perform an action. The problem is 12" range. Maybe a trukk could use the +1 movement upgrade. Or you could run it as evil suns, place a lot of shooty stuff inside, roll up the field, shoot those bs4 sluggas and than flee behind blos with move after shooting. Or get wherever you need it the most with double movement. But no re-rolls for evil suns, unfortunately.
- they have marketalight +1to hit ignoring hit modifiers because it' s not shooting as Vineheard said
- they have an HQ aura to ignore the hit modifiers. Pretty big so more or lesy (half) army wide. That is related to my note “kill the HQs” because they give not only this, but couple of other buffs too. Last time it was at least ignore hit mofiers, full reroll on wound, rerrol 1 on hit and there was some another +1 to hit too.
CaptainO Bloodaxe scenarie “put the wazbooms” in DS is essential. Put half of the army into DS. Because if they go first, they shoot a lot down. They have free advance & remain stationary for shooting and can make automatic 6” advance on some units. And their bigger guns shoots about 30-36, 60”… so if go second, they get in range. So keep the heads down.
They basic troops - breacher warriors - shoots also pretty good.
They lack invu, but they have a lot of bodies /drons so a lot of wounds to kill.
Sometime - Start shooting with the weakes of your weapons is a good idea, drons works like single use grot shield. It' s a pitty if they dron out your wazboom D3+3 damage.
So my plan for the nextime is duck and and commit everything to kill their antitank castle and hope, it will be enough.
In any case, I don' t have a feeling, the new Tau are nonsence. Just strong new codex aiming on my soft spots. Yet…
Well Tau Don't ignore hit modifiers overall besides 1 unit that gets nominated by the regular Commander in the command phase.
The Markerlight gives +1 to hit, but its a one use token, so if he has 4 markerlights that's just 4 units that get to use it.
The Farsight "Sept" counts as having a markerlight in 12" though, so keep that in mind as it will probably be Farsight or Tau Sept 90% the time you face tau.
There are multiple ways for Tau to get +1 to hit ans get rerolls though, but it's limited and sometimes costs them one of their support hard points and in same cases it's limited to shooting units with fly.
Overall Tau isn't so bad for us. They lost the massed Overwatch and the Drone Shenanigans.
They can sacrifice 1 Drone once with a strat, otherwise the drones are just part of the unit with the shield Drone being 4++ but no further tools like FNP.
BS wise Commanders are 2+, Longstrike and Marksman (Marker dude with weak sniping) are 3+ and most of the rest is still 4+.
So all the suits and tanks will hit no better than 3+ with a Marker light, but Cloud of smoke + dense terrain can still get that down to a 5+.
So utilise cloud of Smoke, Warbikers and Dense terrain as much as possible.
There are however 2 strats for suits, one full hit reroll and a Sept locked one for full hit and wound rerolls.
Shadowsun is a Chapter master now and Commanders work like captains.
They have lots of weapons that fire without LOS.
Mainly the SMS with 30" 4/8 × S5 AP1 (Broadsides and Vehicles) and 24" D6 S4 AP1 on the Crisis.
In addition Tau have access to multiple sources of +1 to wound / reroll wound rolls of 1 / get extra AP.
Almost no MWs though.
Other things to look out for:
Devilfish & Breacher combo.
If he goes for Montka he can Pregame move them 9" and use a strat to disembark after moving with up to 3 squads.
So 9 + 12 + 3 = 24" Those will mostly be 10 Breachers with 20 shots S5 AP 2 in 14" or 20 Shots S6 AP4 in 8".
So take care of the Devilfish (T7, 13 wounds but no invul), but if they get you even with buffs they won't kill more than 1 Buggy.
Broadsides and Hammerheads have no invul, so take then out quickly with your quality shots.
Crisis can have a 4++ defensive system for 5 points but just 4 wounds T5.
Except some relics you will see no damage reduction, so any hits will hurt them. Broadsides have 8 wounds so Wazbom is your best friend.
Ethereals are basically Chaplains now, the 3 buffs to look out for are:
1 extra CP, 5+++ on 1 core unit and shoot + actions.
If you have the chance, take him out. Squishy git.
The (named) Commanders can all have good defensive tools, so only commit to them of you can kill them.
Mostly 4++ or 5++, a 5+++ Relic and a few options to reduce (the first) damage + 1 Drone safe once.
The Crisis (or jetpack units) and Pathfinders both have a strike and fade strat after doing their thing.
And yes, Tau have good antitank, but they feel more like glasscannons now that the stupid Drone mechanic is gone.
Besides battlesuits shooting in cc and one neat melee relic they still suck in close combat.
There is a upgrade for free overwatch and 1 guy hitting on 5+ though plus some mean flamers but it's still just one Overwatch overall, it's just CP free if the unit has this upgrade.
Some battlesuit strats are cheaper on 3 models, so if you face multiple large crisis squads it might be good to reduce all of them to 4 models to keep the strats expensive and after that take out whole squads.
Overall I think Tau are ok as opponent. Keep your good stuff save and fokus down long range antitank and tyose breachers.
Tau will evaporate if you get to shoot back mid range.
Because the double Deffkopta Evil Sunz list has been running out of CP in a lot of my test games and 1 Outrider with 6 FA slots were a bit too few for my taste i will go for the Blood Axes version.
I have a question - How are you able to get more CP' s from Blood Axe double detach than from ES single detach?
ES single detach = 12CP
BA double detach 12-3 (second outrider or -2 auxiliery) - 1 for Big Boss for second character and maybe -1 second relic? + 2,5 CPs in average for Cap and let' s say 2,5 CP as a sale for cheaper Attack out of da sun (2-3x per game save 1CP) = 12CP. You can get 1-2 more if you skip Big Boss and second relic.
I was hoping you can save more on BA trait but only other strategem you will use is Tellyporta and you can' t use the trait on it because
Strategem sayis : “Use this strategem during deployment”
Trait sayis: “once per battle round… while warlord is on the battlefield” - that is not during deployment.
Or do I miss something?
I 'm thinking about BA single detach farming list working with aprox 17+5 CPs per battle, but I' m not sure…. the koptas are koptas, I like them but they need the Driven by dakka….
And thanks for the more inside Tau report! Very useful!
In my math I was also counting the 3 CP I save for putting the 2 Wazboms in strategic reserve for free with "I've got a plan lads" as I will do that in 9 / 10 cases in a competitive setting.
Also ES cost me 1 more CP / turn for drive by dakka.
So ES start with 9 after reserves, while BA start with 8 (both lists run a Speed King Wartrike) because of the second detachment and the extra WL trait.
Thus BA end up with 8-13 CP averaging 10 which is 1 more plus the ones a safe for not using Drive by dakka on top of attack outta sun.
ES can do mono detachment Speed Mob a little better than BA, but if you really want 7+ FA slots ES will end up with 6. (Again, counting the 3 CP for reserve)
Mono detachment ES without reserves will still be my favourite speaking about whats more effective, but that's not a thing I see happening often. (For me at least.)
One could squeeze all BA stuff in one detachment for maximum CP, but in my games the lack of flexibility and not having the 2 Kopta squads made this version just not good enough.
Good thing is, all the versions above as well as the Freebooters one seem good and valid to me, so I guess that's a win.
Pre-CA my favourite was 1 ES + 1 BA outrider to get the best out of two worlds, but that's out of the picture now.
You're definitely making making me ponder blood axes. Evil sunz ability to advance and charge a squad of warbikes t1 could be clutch against tau though.
Vineheart01 wrote: i dont think tau have easy access to ignoring modifiers on its own but they went back to the old markerlight system so they can very easily get +2 to hit to offset it.
Also Markerlights arent a shot anymore so they dont care about -1 to hit.
Yeah, markerlights are quite straight forward and hard to stop besides killing the platform using them now. I feel like an alphork strike list is probably one of the better things to use against Tau because you want to pen them in their deployment and tag stuff before they have a chance to set up firing lanes and nuke our units with their superior firepower.
Fast Goff pressure with thier anti vehicle bonuses maybe evilsun speedmob where a 9x war biker unit first turn charging can do some damage with the 5+ invul and cloud of smoke shenanigans. Overall I don’t think tau are that bad when playing msu. I mean I’d hate to be playing knights right now vs them.
Grotrebel wrote: In my math I was also counting the 3 CP I save for putting the 2 Wazboms in strategic reserve for free with "I've got a plan lads" as I will do that in 9 / 10 cases in a competitive setting.
Also ES cost me 1 more CP / turn for drive by dakka.
So ES start with 9 after reserves, while BA start with 8 (both lists run a Speed King Wartrike) because of the second detachment and the extra WL trait.
Thus BA end up with 8-13 CP averaging 10 which is 1 more plus the ones a safe for not using Drive by dakka on top of attack outta sun.
ES can do mono detachment Speed Mob a little better than BA, but if you really want 7+ FA slots ES will end up with 6. (Again, counting the 3 CP for reserve)
Mono detachment ES without reserves will still be my favourite speaking about whats more effective, but that's not a thing I see happening often. (For me at least.)
One could squeeze all BA stuff in one detachment for maximum CP, but in my games the lack of flexibility and not having the 2 Kopta squads made this version just not good enough.
Good thing is, all the versions above as well as the Freebooters one seem good and valid to me, so I guess that's a win.
Pre-CA my favourite was 1 ES + 1 BA outrider to get the best out of two worlds, but that's out of the picture now.
It' s maybe even better. Wazbooms has power rating 10. Puting them in reserves should cost 2CP per unit. So It' s at least 4CP + you can put there one more unit for free so it' s maybe 5-6CP. Isn't it?
I have a question related to Mek Gunz. Now that we dont split them up that makes me a bit confused about how the kustom mega kannons work.
Lets say you have a unit of 2 KMK. They both roll a 1 on their hit rolls and take a wound. Would both Mek Gunz be down to 4 wounds because you rolled them individually or do you roll them both simultaneously and thus, you would just give 2 wounds to 1 mek gun?
As i understand it, they have to be rolled individually because its the mek gun that makes the roll of 1 that has to take the damage. But that makes me question how you dedicate wounds to them afterwards. if they both have lost 1 wound, can i freely choose which of the mek gunz i want to dedicate wounds to afterwards when they get shot at?
And if one has 3 wounds left and another 4, can i still choose how i dedicate these wounds? normally you have to give wounds to the already wounded model...
The last thing is related to the grot krew. I cant remember the text from the old codex, but i recalled you could hold objectives with a grot itself rather than the actual mek gun having to stand on the objective. is this still the case? Because it says all ranges are measured to and from the Mek gun. would that also mean that you are only in dense terrain if the mek gun is standing in it (or behind it)? or can a grot still do that. Furthermore i would assume that when someone deepstrikes they also DONT measure to the grots but the Mek Gun. how that relates to close combat i dont know.
Depends on the wording of the gun, but generally rolling a 1 suffer damage type weapons says "Bearer suffers 1 mortal wound" which would specifically mean that model, not the entire unit.
Its why it always irritates me that marine players running a giant blob of plasma gets pissy that half their unit died.....no...you have to roll them separately because if one rolled multiple 1s only that one actually suffers.
Its one thing i liked about running Grot Tanks before the most recent IA screwed them over...they largely didnt care about that damage since it got spread all over the place.
Vineheart01 wrote: Depends on the wording of the gun, but generally rolling a 1 suffer damage type weapons says "Bearer suffers 1 mortal wound" which would specifically mean that model, not the entire unit.
Its why it always irritates me that marine players running a giant blob of plasma gets pissy that half their unit died.....no...you have to roll them separately because if one rolled multiple 1s only that one actually suffers.
Its one thing i liked about running Grot Tanks before the most recent IA screwed them over...they largely didnt care about that damage since it got spread all over the place.
it says the bearer so i have to roll them individually. But if one Mek gun takes 2 wounds and another one takes 1 wound from rolling 1s, what happens when the enemy shoots at me? Which of the two models must i dedicate wounds to first? the one with fewest wounds?
That case is not covered by the rules, as the only relevant rule is you have to take further wounds on already wounded models.
GW simply didn't think about cases where you have multiple wounded models in 1squad.
In that case I've always played it so, that the controlling player chooses which of the wounded models suffers the next one.
There are actually quite a few units than can have multiple wounded models.
Grotrebel wrote: That case is not covered by the rules, as the only relevant rule is you have to take further wounds on already wounded models.
GW simply didn't think about cases where you have multiple wounded models in 1squad.
In that case I've always played it so, that the controlling player chooses which of the wounded models suffers the next one.
There are actually quite a few units than can have multiple wounded models.
Vineheart01 wrote: i dont think tau have easy access to ignoring modifiers on its own but they went back to the old markerlight system so they can very easily get +2 to hit to offset it.
Also Markerlights arent a shot anymore so they dont care about -1 to hit.
Yeah, markerlights are quite straight forward and hard to stop besides killing the platform using them now. I feel like an alphork strike list is probably one of the better things to use against Tau because you want to pen them in their deployment and tag stuff before they have a chance to set up firing lanes and nuke our units with their superior firepower.
Fast Goff pressure with thier anti vehicle bonuses maybe evilsun speedmob where a 9x war biker unit first turn charging can do some damage with the 5+ invul and cloud of smoke shenanigans. Overall I don’t think tau are that bad when playing msu. I mean I’d hate to be playing knights right now vs them.
Warbikers get a natural -1 to hit but can't use cloud of smoke as they aren't vehicles (no stacking -1s to counter +1s). Same with flyers as they aren't speed freeks.
Confusing i know but Cloud of smoke is also the name of the natural -1 to hit ability on warbikers…. Which is also the name of the -1 to hit strategem!
gungo wrote: Confusing i know but Cloud of smoke is also the name of the natural -1 to hit ability on warbikers…. Which is also the name of the -1 to hit strategem!
RAW there is no way to identify which model should suffer damage if multiples have damage, since the Gets Hot effect is afaik the only way it ever happens anymore.
I have always just done whichever has more damage must take the damage, both because that makes sense and it avoids any possible arguments.
gungo wrote: Confusing i know but Cloud of smoke is also the name of the natural -1 to hit ability on warbikers…. Which is also the name of the -1 to hit strategem!
As I recall while the Warbikers get it the Warboss on a Warbike does not get it. Very consistent!
Vineheart01 wrote: RAW there is no way to identify which model should suffer damage if multiples have damage, since the Gets Hot effect is afaik the only way it ever happens anymore.
I have always just done whichever has more damage must take the damage, both because that makes sense and it avoids any possible arguments.
If I get it right the multiple kmk should be played this way;
Declare a target for each of your guns.
Roll separately for each gun. If during the shooting sequence you get 1s - the shooting gun receives a mw.
If the declared target dies before you get to shoot the next gun, the shots are not fired (not sure here, correct me if I'm wrong).
So, for example, you have 3 kmk and declare to be shooting at a rhino with all 3.
1st rolls a 1 with one ore more of to-hits and receives a MW.
2d rolls a 1 with one or more of to-hits and receives a MW. Also, it kills a rhino
3d doesn't get to shoot, rolls nothing and receives no MW.
Now you have 2 wounded guns in a squad and if you receive, for example 2 wounds with damage 3, you can easily allocate first wound to one gun and the second one go another leaving you with 3 guns still, though 2 of them have 2 out of 6 wounds.
It's a nice loophole but... It's not really that relevant since the potential of playing around with wounds this way is offset by ld4. The only thing j can think of is if you're running makari to at least have some decent ld6 and be able to handle some losses.
Technically that is correct because technically you are supposed to roll for each attack individually from hit -> wound -> save -> damage.
Its something that unless something like Gets Hot is a factor nobody cares because its incredibly slow.
Thats why "whenever a unit attacks, it may reroll the hit roll" means reroll ALL hit rolls not literally "a" hit roll
koooaei wrote: Now you have 2 wounded guns in a squad and if you receive, for example 2 wounds with damage 3, you can easily allocate first wound to one gun and the second one go another leaving you with 3 guns still, though 2 of them have 2 out of 6 wounds.
You can't do that - once you have allocated an attack to a model, you need to allocate all further attacks during that phase to the same model, whether it has lost wounds or not.
I love Richard Siegler’s LVO list. Great to see that a toolbox list can win that big.
Trying to unpack its elements I´d say backline shooting and a mixed midfield of resilient shooters and melee shifting roles depending on the opposition. A gunline will be charged by Ruststalkers and vice versa for melee strategies. Chicken walkers eliminate armor and elite stuff. Very nice and balanced.
I´m trying to emulate such a strategy with BA, but I guess I´m not at Rickard´s level, finishing a PhD at the same as he casually won the ITC and LVO, so will take a while
Especially as an ork player, you should know that beating a list and beating a player are two different things
That said, I don't think orks have the same toolkit available as ad mech does, the closest to a high utility, high adaptivity list we currently have is the goff tempo archetype as both types of buggies are kind of locked into their game plan from the moment you deploy.
It’s still reasonably close but orks had quite a few changes. I think deffkopta s went up especially w army of renown and kommandos might not be must take anymore. With squigboss being a little less auto take too.
popisdead wrote: I'm looking at the comprehensive and first post in this thread from Jidmah, looks like it was updated most recently Sept 14 last year.
Is the consensus that I should still consider it fairly up-to-date and a good starting point for me?
Thanks kindly,
There are arguments on a lot of the units. And a lot of stuff has changed since then. Yeah, koptas have originally been disregarded due to wow-effect from the buggies. But than it turned out they have always been good. And now, with the nerf to buggies and army of reknown koptas are one of the best units in the codex.
On the other hand, there are units that have good use but only in some specific conditions - like little meks that are for some reason placed as "absolute garbage - never take". But some players, including myself have had great results with them.
I'd treat the first post as somewhat relevant but taken with a grain of salt. Mostly a guideline for your first couple games to not get a non-functional list from the get go. But as you move on and get experience, you start to see that sometimes you don't need the "green" Units but instead "yellow" or even "red" ones need to be taken.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, the effectiveness of the same units depends on a lot of factors. For example, if you play with a lot of Los blocking terrain, flyers, out of Los shooting and mobile mellee gets significantly better. You can take a trukk, place something killy and expensive inside and do great. But if you regularly play on open tables, the units you are gona pick will also change. No small squads without transports, kff mek (if not army of reknown), fewer kommandoes, cheaper stuff in trukks and wagons, reserved units, etc.
And if you play smaller <= 1k pt games, some things become better, some worse. Like taking Ghaz in a 500 pt game is probably not a good idea as you'll get outscored easilly. Or paying 20pt for a 5++ for your trukk might actually become viable as you're not running off mek and 5++ will come in handy and might be enough to survive enemy shooting whereas it's almost completely irrelevant in larger games cause there WILL be enough guns to kill it regardless. And you simply need blos.
Maybe the part about the clans and their traits/relics is little bit out of date. A lot has been changed since the last autumn.
ES used to be interesting but useless.
BA was intereted on the beginning - remember the Mani Cheema BA buggy crazyness - and than falled back and now rise again.
The hottest list - Goff Killrig preasure list was something we was speaking about but nobody actually played it or seen it anywhere.
Freebootas was top notch, now they are an option for “old school buggy list”
An also important change is mono clan list building.
For example Death Skulls have seen a lot of play as a little Kommando / Stormboy MSU detachment for ObSec objectives play besides a larger main force.
While the trait is still OK, it is far less useful when you have to go mono clan.
Evil Sunz, Goffs (Alpha pressure list), Freebooters (Wazbom / Buggy Spam) and Blood Axes are the best ones now.
For me Blood Axes are the best Clan atm, as it offers a lot of utility and the advance + actions + shoot strat is really strong in the new CA missions. It offers many good tools as well as a good supplement with a few strong things.
Unit wise I can agree in the other posts.
Top tier: Wazbom, Koptas, Bikes, Scrapjet, Squigbuggy, Kommandos, Stormboys, Trukk Boys
Solid: Warbosses of all kind, Dakkajet, MA Mek, the other Buggies
The rest varies from might somehow work in the right list to outright bad.
Of course this depends heavily on what kind of army you go for, your tables and what armies you face.
XC18 wrote: I am a bit lost here. What is the 'goff tempo archetype' ? Is that the alpha-ork style list ?
To describe it roughly it's a goff army revolving around kill rigs, kommadoz, beast bosses and punching people in the face by using the Waaagh! to close the gap. The actual lists are highly varied, you see pretty much anything from Thrakka to squig hogs to MANz. Essentially people are building a melee toolbox to fit their playstyle. Semper's alphork list would probably fit into that archetype.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
popisdead wrote: I'm looking at the comprehensive and first post in this thread from Jidmah, looks like it was updated most recently Sept 14 last year.
Is the consensus that I should still consider it fairly up-to-date and a good starting point for me?
Thanks kindly,
It's a bit outdated, koooaei summarized it pretty well. I currently do not have the time to update the first post as I'm quite busy with real life, otherwise I would already have done so.
Hi, I am the speed mob player from this article. The action oriented missions can be a struggle but the army is still incredible and I’m having a ton of fun with it. Custodes are an extremely easy matchup if there’s no magnifica, and the one opponent I fought who did have one (round 5) was a much harder game but still ultimately a win for me. If it’s a player who knows what they’re doing and plays it well the magnifica makes tabling as a win condition much harder, but with careful play on most missions winning off the mission is still very feasible. It’s easier with 5 and 6 objective missions, anything with dawn of war style deployment is more difficult too, but I really like speed mob into the custodes matchup. Even with a 4+++ fnp against mortals enough kopta attacks and mortals from crashing through/ramming speed still finish off wounded bikes, lone characters and dreads with 5 or less wounds consistently. Rokkits with speed mob just dumpster them
I took get da good bits twice at this event and never because I wanted to lol. It works on some missions and some matchups but with only 3 units of bikes sure sucks if they all die. I wouldn’t necessarily recommend taking more bikes to do it, since that’s a lot of points to commit to a still not that durable action unit, but if you are okay with scoring 6-9 for it (12 was my highest score and that was only because of a very fortunate ruin placement) it is totally fine in some matchups. Against custodes I usually prefer assassinate/no prisoners, the changes to no prisoners makes most custodes armies give up 8+ points pretty often.
I take engage almost every game, only taking stranglehold if it’s a 5 objective mission and my matchup isn’t super fast or heavy on obsec units. the army doesn’t have a ton of secondary play, I do not suggest taking to the last like the article suggests. I think it’s fine with a different playstyle but I personally love suicide charging deffkoptas into stuff once I can afford to do so and it is often a “win more” secondary.
To be clear though, just like freebooterz, this army wins because it stops your opponent from scoring, not because it scores well. It sucks at playing the mission compared to most armies but is so fast and so hard to kill if you’re careful. Focus praetors against custodes, then try to kill anything that lets them play the mission. ignore dreads unless there isn’t a different better target, all flavors of tanks.
Another thing worth mentioning is that I fly my wazboms off the board deliberately all the time. If I go first and can hide the rest of my army vs a praetor bubble with a magnifica, they’re off the board for sure. If I go second and it’s a non dawn of war mission usually I can set up in a way so that the salvos can’t reach me. If it’s a dawn of war I usually don’t keep them in reserve but would considering doing so against certain matchups.
Try to either give your opponent so many targets they don’t know what to shoot (if you’ve hurt them enough that you’re not worried about being tabled in a shooting phase), or prioritize hiding everything over killing. In-between is the worst. Chip damage through kopta hit and runs followed by a big everyone shoots/charges t3 and hopes there’s not much left after is how most games go
Jidmah wrote: I find his insight on secondaries very interesting - there is way too little talk about these thoughts.
Yes and yes.
And it' s first Ork Speedfreak list without Squigbuggies since the last summer.
I think in general people are going to move away from Squigbuggies, especially multiple Squigbuggies due to the cost increase. They offer pretty good odds of damaging your target from outside of LOS, at the cost of being the most expensive buggy by a large margin.
Consider the humble Deffkopta. It too stands a pretty good chance of wounding whatever it hits, and is fast enough in both its base movement and it's various deep strike shenanigans that it may as well have outside of LOS shooting. It also has the potential for lots of damage output in the charge and fight phase thanks to its respectable melee profile and strats like attack out of da sun. And you get two of these for every one Squigbuggy, with change.
A Nitro Squigs Rukkatrukk is worthwhile if you've got a free slot, but I personally think the Scrapjet and the Deffkopta are better general toolbox units. Especially with things like warbikers eating up the other FA slots, it's getting edged out by these toolboxes.
TL;DR
Slots are finite in Speed Freek lists and the cheaper toolbox units are being taken over the more expensive Rukkatrukk.
) obsecc units with decent overwatch, enough fightiness to be a deterrent to a lot of units wanting to take our objectives and in cover a 1+ base save. I have always liked 
The current highest ranked undefeated ork list in 
