Jidmah wrote: I find his insight on secondaries very interesting - there is way too little talk about these thoughts.
QFT
I had another BA game last night with my wip flexible build. WL on Da Plan, Lootas in Bossbunka, Boyz digging for Good Bitz in my backline and Weirdboy Interrogating. That´s the important parts. Won comfortably vs IF (worst marines I know)
The take home is that you tick 6 VP/turn for doing nothing essentially and doesn´t need to sac units in far away no mans land for Engage or Retrieves. Opponent otoh needs to do this and thus bleeds points and is drawn apart. Tactical win for Orks imo.
Jidmah wrote: Especially as an ork player, you should know that beating a list and beating a player are two different things
That said, I don't think orks have the same toolkit available as ad mech does, the closest to a high utility, high adaptivity list we currently have is the goff tempo archetype as both types of buggies are kind of locked into their game plan from the moment you deploy.
I'm 100% in agreement with Jidmah here. Siegler played a great list and beat a lot of really good players and should be proud of his accomplishment. He was helped by Ad-Mech being able to have an incredible tool kit of units available for use. lasChickens are ridiculously good even after 2 successive nerfs. They can kill vehicles with relative ease and are both fast and durable for their points. His Ranger blobs are veterans which makes them (believe it or not) relatively fighty, but more so they shoot A LOT! so lots of anti-infantry firepower here. The sneaky part of his list is the rust stalker type units (I think he had 3 CC units like this). He had ranged firepower capable of 1 shotting light-medium vehicles, he had anti-infantry firepower for days and he had a lot of Alpha strike CC units which compare favorably to a lot of the best CC options in the game right now.
Compare that to orkz and its night and day. We don't have anti-vehicle weapons that hit like a Las chicken, we don't have troops which can shred other factions infantry at range and our best CC units compare negatively to those Rust stalkers in most categories. Put it all together, we don't have the tools like Ad-Mech to do this kind of list. I'm still very much of the opinion that orkz need to pick 1 thing they are going to be good at and absolutely overload the board with that playstyle. For me its the ALphork strike meaning I'm in your deployment zone heavily turn 1.
XC18 wrote: I am a bit lost here. What is the 'goff tempo archetype' ? Is that the alpha-ork style list ?
In my opinion you can sub-divide Goff Tempo lists into 2 categories. Alpha and Bravo.
Alpha Strike is a list built with the mindset of setting the tempo turn 1. Your opponent will get at most 1 full turn to shoot the piss out of you before you are in his face and you are dictating the game's tempo. 50% of the time you should go 1st so they don't get ANY turns to shoot you to hell. This list is filled with units that can reach the enemy turn 1 and either kill them or at the minimum, tie them up in CC so that they can't escape or shoot you at full ballistic skill. Trukk Boyz, Deff Koptas, Warbikes, Kommandos and if you are lucky, Squig Riders fall into this category (Few other outliers like Stormboyz and even some buggies) The key element is you need to cross No Mans land Turn 1 and be in assault range. Deffkoptas/warbikes have that crazy 14' movement so they can do it well, Kommandos start the game 9' from the enemy lines so they can do it as well, Trukkboyz, while not being very good at killing things are INSANELY FAST! 12+3+5+3.5+2D6 for an average threat range of 30-31 inches turn 1!
Bravo Strike is literally the exact same mindset except change it from being a first turn assault to a 2nd turn assault. So regular boyz in trukkz or meganobz in trukkz not necessarily trukk boyz, Units brought in trukkz, Squig riders, Beastboss on Squigy, Basically all of our vehicles, walkers etc. infantry will still struggle in this list unless they have a transport.
Regardless of hwich one you choose, I always recommend 3 units of 1 mek gunz (KMK) to sit backfield and hold objectives, distract the enemy and hopefully inflict some dmg.
A thought ocurred to me and i dont really have the large core rule book on me atm so i cant really verify it. But we once said that paying 5 points for the attack squig on the warboss is good, if you run brutal but kunning because failing said attacks would be given to the warboss then. Same could be said for brutal but kunning on a beastboss on a squig. Failed jaw hits/wounds/damage is given to the warboss to redo.
But isnt that wrong? Because the squig jaws attacks are additional attacks, and as far as i recall, you have to roll for those after the warboss has made his attacks, not before. Additional attacks are always made afterwards and would thus not be able to net you anything from brutal but kunning.
Thats how i remember it at least but without my core rules book i cant really verify it or not.
I think you are referring to the rare rule about additional hits?
The squig and the squigosaur attacks are additional attacks, not hits. (The rule references attacks that trigger multiple hits.)
Even so, FAQ has stated that even hits triggered by Goff kultur count in Brutal but kunnin.
Q: When a Goff model with the Brutal but Kunnin Warlord Trait
attacks, are any additional hits generated by the No Mukkin’ About
clan kulture that don’t reach the Inflict Damage step counted when
determining how many additional attacks can be made?
A: Yes. Note though, that when making additional attacks as
a result of this Warlord Trait, no additional hits can then be
generated due to the No Mukkin’ About kultur.
When i said additional hits i meant additional attacks.
And its not about the FAQ its about when you have to do your additional attacks. I just have a faint memory of reading that additional attacks, be it squig jaws, Kill rigs or whom ever, has to be done afterwards, not before. And if we do them afterwards, then you have already done your warboss attacks including his redo attacks from BBK.
in the case of the Kill rig one would have to do the main attacks first, then the trampler squig and the boyz. Not that kill Rigs can have BBK but still.
Jidmah wrote: I find his insight on secondaries very interesting - there is way too little talk about these thoughts.
QFT
I had another BA game last night with my wip flexible build. WL on Da Plan, Lootas in Bossbunka, Boyz digging for Good Bitz in my backline and Weirdboy Interrogating. That´s the important parts. Won comfortably vs IF (worst marines I know)
The take home is that you tick 6 VP/turn for doing nothing essentially and doesn´t need to sac units in far away no mans land for Engage or Retrieves. Opponent otoh needs to do this and thus bleeds points and is drawn apart. Tactical win for Orks imo.
How are you doing get the good Bitz in your back line outside of mission 33? It has to be on objectives in no man's land.
And its not about the FAQ its about when you have to do your additional attacks. I just have a faint memory of reading that additional attacks, be it squig jaws, Kill rigs or whom ever, has to be done afterwards, not before. And if we do them afterwards, then you have already done your warboss attacks including his redo attacks from BBK.
in the case of the Kill rig one would have to do the main attacks first, then the trampler squig and the boyz. Not that kill Rigs can have BBK but still.
I've got the core rule book here and can't see an "order of attacks" anywhere.
My buddy is clearly disappointed with how his ultramarines are performing against my Orks so is switching to Drukhari My list is kind of tuned towards the tanky aspect of marines and heavily fast/melee focussed. I’m guessing this may not perform as well against Drukhari so any tips in tuning my list against this new foe is much appreciated.
He seems very overconfident of steamrollering me.
Sorry should say, my recent lists have been based around goff beta strike pressure lists, heavy on the squigs (squighogs, squigboss, killrg) but I have a few koptas, a few bikes and other things like a dread, Kommandos, snaggas, boys, and other stuff I can use. I could supplement with more coptas, or a few buggies If that’s the best way to tailor the list.
Recently nerfed drukhari shouldn't steamroll you. Get them out of their raiders and be conscious of their charge ranges. You don't want their cc monsters getting the drop on you.
It'll come down to a trade war for the centre in the first two turns and then the first person to get a killer blow will win. Ork and drukhari are Both glass cannons for different reasons.
Deffkoptas are now ideal for taking out Talos. Sam with wazbomms. Rely on 1 damage stuff against their troops.
DoktaRoksta wrote: Thanks, I only have 3 koptas right now. Should I get more do you think or get a Wazbom?
Both. 2 wazbooms and at least 10 koptas. In Evil Sunz Speed Mob. Than it works like murdering machine.
But it' s totaly different list than you have. Wait for the advice from someone playing goff presure list.
But I think, switch to goff alpha strike is the key. Drukhari has advance and charge since T2 and tend to preasure you back since T2 to stop you from scoring. It' s a good idea to block them in their half of the table ASAP before they start.
Or at least my experience is, the most stupid plan againts Drukhari is to wait and hesitate. They bacame stronger and because they are fast, they will be everywhere.
Check the ork lists from LVO and from Goonhammer Tactical innovations from last month or two for the inspiration. Now there is new CA and new point costs, but the basic idea of such list is still valid.
Jidmah wrote: I find his insight on secondaries very interesting - there is way too little talk about these thoughts.
QFT
I had another BA game last night with my wip flexible build. WL on Da Plan, Lootas in Bossbunka, Boyz digging for Good Bitz in my backline and Weirdboy Interrogating. That´s the important parts. Won comfortably vs IF (worst marines I know)
The take home is that you tick 6 VP/turn for doing nothing essentially and doesn´t need to sac units in far away no mans land for Engage or Retrieves. Opponent otoh needs to do this and thus bleeds points and is drawn apart. Tactical win for Orks imo.
How are you doing get the good Bitz in your back line outside of mission 33? It has to be on objectives in no man's land.
Aplogies for the sloppy wording. I only meant the Objective in my half of the table. Nothing else. It’s easily accessible and hard for the opponent to prioritize in face of the number of additional threats on the board.
DoktaRoksta wrote: Thanks, I only have 3 koptas right now. Should I get more do you think or get a Wazbom?
Both. 2 wazbooms and at least 10 koptas. In Evil Sunz Speed Mob. Than it works like murdering machine.
But it' s totaly different list than you have. Wait for the advice from someone playing goff presure list.
But I think, switch to goff alpha strike is the key. Drukhari has advance and charge since T2 and tend to preasure you back since T2 to stop you from scoring. It' s a good idea to block them in their half of the table ASAP before they start.
Or at least my experience is, the most stupid plan againts Drukhari is to wait and hesitate. They bacame stronger and because they are fast, they will be everywhere.
Check the ork lists from LVO and from Goonhammer Tactical innovations from last month or two for the inspiration. Now there is new CA and new point costs, but the basic idea of such list is still valid.
Well that’s me off to the store tomorrow then I could switch to ES list but don’t have a Speedboss, if someone could let me know how to make this work with goff pressure then I would appreciate it. My current list isn’t fast or Killy enough to do the needed damage in turn one I suspect.
DoktaRoksta wrote: My buddy is clearly disappointed with how his ultramarines are performing against my Orks so is switching to Drukhari My list is kind of tuned towards the tanky aspect of marines and heavily fast/melee focussed. I’m guessing this may not perform as well against Drukhari so any tips in tuning my list against this new foe is much appreciated.
He seems very overconfident of steamrollering me.
Sorry should say, my recent lists have been based around goff beta strike pressure lists, heavy on the squigs (squighogs, squigboss, killrg) but I have a few koptas, a few bikes and other things like a dread, Kommandos, snaggas, boys, and other stuff I can use. I could supplement with more coptas, or a few buggies If that’s the best way to tailor the list.
Don't change the list based on 1 opponent. At least try to win with what you're running ATM. It might not be the best thing out there but it only makes you a better general. In my experience, the weaker your list - the better your skill gets (if you try, ofc). You can not afford to make as many mistakes as you could have otherwise. And you start to notice more tactical possibilities when you're forced to use your brain and not just get the best possible net list and steamroll the enemy.
Tomsug wrote: Be careful, Goff pressure list the same good option as Speed Mob. Build on what you have.
Koptas and wazbooms are a great model in any case.
I just prefer AOBR deffkoptas over the new ones. Better design imho…
The new deffkopta design isn’t bad. It very close to the old plastic ones.. the orks are definitely more dynamic too… but I don’t like the new pushfit models as it’s not always easy to get a clean fit without gaps and I don’t like the fact the new box forces 1 deffkopta to have a bomm. But neither deffkopta are good to customize.
DoktaRoksta wrote: My buddy is clearly disappointed with how his ultramarines are performing against my Orks so is switching to Drukhari My list is kind of tuned towards the tanky aspect of marines and heavily fast/melee focussed. I’m guessing this may not perform as well against Drukhari so any tips in tuning my list against this new foe is much appreciated.
He seems very overconfident of steamrollering me.
Sorry should say, my recent lists have been based around goff beta strike pressure lists, heavy on the squigs (squighogs, squigboss, killrg) but I have a few koptas, a few bikes and other things like a dread, Kommandos, snaggas, boys, and other stuff I can use. I could supplement with more coptas, or a few buggies If that’s the best way to tailor the list.
Don't change the list based on 1 opponent. At least try to win with what you're running ATM. It might not be the best thing out there but it only makes you a better general. In my experience, the weaker your list - the better your skill gets (if you try, ofc). You can not afford to make as many mistakes as you could have otherwise. And you start to notice more tactical possibilities when you're forced to use your brain and not just get the best possible net list and steamroll the enemy.
I was having similar thoughts today.
I mean I play for fun so losing isn’t a biggie, the last game we played was very even.
I would like to improve my list a bit so maybe I’ll play my list but am tempted to try it with a Wazbom.
Also I’ll need to adjust it a bit as the last time I played was before the points increase
Bike Captain
Termi Captain
Trajann
-1 to hit banner
2 x 4 Bikes
3 Wardens
4 Allarus
2 x 3 Guardians
5 Prosecutors
2 Wazboms in Reserve, he went first and killed a few Warbikers. 1 squad Preators held back, one boosted forward to shoot stuff, but everything but 3 Guardians in Banner range.
My first turn my whole army killed 1 Guardian and did 1 wound to 1 bike, that banner really hurt and he saved all of my quality shots with lots of 4++s.
The Koptas failed their charge and flew away.
His second turn he killed more bikers and 1 Scrapjet. His whole pulk moved forward towards the center objective.
Turn 2 eveything came in. His Bike Captain and 4 Bikes were out of banner range. About 1800 points of orks with full buffs, strats and charge MW`s did about 3 wounds to the shield captain and killed 2 Bikes. Yikes.
Because i did 0 MW`s with the 5 Koptas ramming Speed and Crashing through his Termi Captain was able to telleport into cc with the squigbuggies. That was by far my worst turn the whole day and did cost me the game.
At this point it was just about scoring as much as possible and hoping for better turns 3 and 4 but it didn`t work out.
I killed his Shield Captain on Bike, the Termi Captain survived luckily with two wounds. 4 Bikers, the Allarus, 3 Guardians and the Prosecutors died as well, but in the end i was tabled turn 5. 81:49 loss.
My personal highlight was the Warboss, who scored for Engage 4 turns, killed the Prosecutors and stole his home objective and must have moved over 70" over the course of the game. The custodes player ended up winning the event, and at least the loss gave me good matchups later.
Game 2 vs. BT
Spoiler:
Grimaldus
Helbrecht
Bike Chaplain
Apo
6 Eradicators
5 Bladeguard
2 Impulsors
about 30 choppy Marines
Yeah, it was the worst list of the event and BT already are a good Matchup for Speed Mob, so this was a no brainer.
Nothing in reserve this time as i could stay out of range from the Eradicators.
He went first and all his stuff was hiding behind obscuring.
My first turn the 2 Wazboms sneaked behind Grimaldus, killed his 3 buddies, the 6 Eradicators and a few Marines.
They survived his second turn, and in my second turn i killed most of his infantry.
At that point the game was over, it was just about maxing out or not.
I had taken Assassinate, Get da Good Bitz (maxed that one out turn 3^^) and engage.
His Apo revived one of Grimaldus Bros 4 turns in a row, but the man himself survived every time. So even with the 7 Character kills on Grimaldus`unit alone i ended up with 12 VP for Assassinate because 1 Wazbom oneshot Helbrecht but the Apo suvived with 1 wound and his Chaplain (with dmg becomes 1 + FNP) tanked good as well.
That was a bit of a mistake by my side, as it was a local event and i know the guy, so i initiated a few unnecessary close combats and didn`t fokus a 100% on maxing out.
But that way there was some melee fun as well and it ended up 97:23 i think.
The Wazboms were brutal, the Dragsta did a fair amount of damage as well. This game was the perfect example how good good bitz can be in the right match and with "tear down their icons" it was the perfect mission for that as well.
Game 3 vs. DG
Spoiler:
Prince
Arch Contaminator Lord
Tollkeeper Tallyman
3 Crawler
3 x 3 Deathshroud
2 Volkite Bots
3 x 11 Poxwalkers
Also a friend of mine and a very chilled dude to play against, great game to finish off the event!
Could`t hide my Koptas so i put them in reserve with the 2 Wazboms.
He went first and oh boy, his Crawlers sucked. They already have the tendency to spike or fail hard, but this might be the worst performance of 3 Crawlers i`ve ever witnessed.
5 Bikers died, and thats all that happened turn 1. I held back the Speedwaaagh and killed about 15 Poxwalkers and did 2 wounds to 1 Crawler, so everything still undecided turn 2. One camping Poxwalker survived wit a few FNP`s holding his 3rd objective.
After that 2 telleporting Deathshrouds tried to charge my screening 2 Biker Mobs, he made 1 of them and i used auto pass on the 1 remaining dude with 1 wound left - nice.
He killed the Warboss i had boosted on an objective for engage and to minimise his Primaries and shot the other Bikers. But they had screened and scored good, so their work was done.
I lost 1 Scrapjet and the Snazzwagon to the Crawlers and Volkites, at that point his Poxwalkers had spread the Sickness on 2 objectived and managed to screen his important stuff.
So it was Speedwaagh time! Wazboms and Koptas killed 8/9 Deathshroud + 1 Volkite. Meanwhile i was actually holding 5 of the objectives (for now) and tried to keep his scoring down.
I had also taken Bring it Down but was fokusing first on killing his Poxwalkers and Deathshroud to keep the table clean (hehe) and spread my units as good as possible.
Overall this was a fantastic game with lots of meaningfull movement phases, limited shooting angles and a lot of kills and objective switching.
Turn 3 he took down 1 flyer to 5 wounds, killed another buggy and again i had just 1 Biker with 1 wound left there. He tried to kill him with his Crawler in melee, but that heroic Boy survived and held the objective surrounded by 3 Crawlers and a Volkite Bot. What a champ.
We both had lost most of our small stuff but lots of heavy hitters were still on the table. And even with a small head start on Primaries, since i had taken No Prisoners i would cap out at 7 VP there,i needed better Primaries and staying on par on Bring it down (both had it) to win that one.
His prince killed 3 Koptas and his MVP squad of Poxwalkers had grown back, held 2 objectives and survived my 3rd turn as well.
The Lord and his Crawlers finished of the last 2 Bikers, failed hard on the Wazboms and he began to slowly take over the objectives.
I countered and took down his Prince, the last Poxwalkers, the last Deathshroud and shot his Lord down to 3 wounds.
At this point he had left his 3 Crawlers (almost untouched), 1 Volkite and his Lord.
On my side were the 2 Wazboms, the Dragsta, 3 Squigbuggies and the Wartrike, but he was slowly but steadily dominating the objectives.
His Lord killed the Dragsta but was shot by a Wazbom. He killed the Wartrike turn 5 but yet again his Crawlers were not able to shoot down my planes.
In my last turn i got greedy and his other Volkite survived with 2 wounds. His Crawlers might have sucked at shooting, but their saves were blessed by Nurgle himself. Must have been about 5-6 wounds i had taken from them, so the game ended with me having left the Squigbuggies and 2 Wazboms & 3 Crawlers + 1 Bot standing.
It got really close in the end, but i managed to sneak of with a 45:40 win.
Overall i am happy with 2 wins and loosing against the event winning list and had 3 nice games ending up 5th.
Unit review:
Warbikes: Man i love them! Have been running 2-3 x 3 before, but when you go for 13+ models you begin to realise how tough they are! 6++ / 5++, -1 to hit, T5 and a good amount of wounds really begins to sum up, especially when you consider how much antitank they draw away from your juice targets. Only downside is, that you really need them to screen or boost on objectives, so they end up not doing much damage a lot. Their shooting is nice, but without Dakka range, the Speedwaaagh AP or if you get -1 to hit it becomes bad really fast. Today a really missed the big choppas for a little bit of extra dmg. Sadly i never had enough CP left for their cc strat.
I will definitly use them more in other lists as well and try to squeze in more than the minimum amount.
Wazboms: Yeah, what can i say. Most of my damage comes from them and i`m even more convinced about the combo with "I`ve got a plan lads".
Unless you really really need the points, take the Supa Shootas and the forcefield. Tank the 2 Melta wounds your opponent gets in and ruin his day. The flexibility to get some extra chipping on tougher stuff or simply shoot MSU and stuff the rest of the army can`t see is good value. Good backup plan if your Squigbuggies fail as well.
Koptas: Work Horses. Really hurts to run into dense or other hit modifiers, but they still rock. Might try a mob of 6 to get a bit more damage in.
Ramming Speed + crashing through is insanely strong, i really hope they don`t nerf it on Koptas...
Squigbuggies: Hands down, the nerf has changed nothing. They have chipped down so much stuff my other units failed to kill and the ability to shut down MSU scoring is just fantastic. It is a huge price tag but i can`t remember a game i regret taking them.
Scrapjets: 2 is nice for freeing them from TTL duty, but damn it i missed having 3. Gonna free up a few points and switch back to running max unit size.
Hands down, it`s just too good. Might be harder to hide them, but there are still options to put them in reserve with the Wazboms in reaaally bad scenarios or utilise Cloud of smoke and / or Drive by dakka if you run ES.
Wartrike & Warboss: Well, It`s mandatory to run them, so not much to say. Didn`t miss the klaw at all.
Snazzwagon: Not much damage, but a good unit to camp or screen and not bad with its natural -1 to hit. It`lacks the indirect fire of the Squigbuggies and the sheer output of the Scrapjets and Dragstas though. Otherwise i would be really tempted to use more of them. Good to work on its own. The custom job was just a way to use the last 10 points. It`s rival is the Boosta Blasta that sacrifices the -1 to hit for a spiked ram. Good tool to have in the endgame if you need to finish off multiple weakened units with good saves. Would also free up 10 more points in that list so i could pimp the Trike with Drag chains or Shokka Hull.
Dragsta: Skipped that poor boy a lot but have come back to love him! 2 quality shots, saw blades and the flexibility with jump and Squighide tyres is simply a good package.
Has been great for engaging and getting in good firing positions. I`d love to have more of them for reliable shooting but i`m afraid it might be bad for his ability to jump to a small sweet spot. I`m tempted to tellyport a squad of 3 and blow something up. It`s honestly still my most favourite buggy model.
Might try a 0-deploy list for fun tellyporting 3 Dragstas, deepstriking 5 Koptas and put Wazboms and Scrapjets in reserve wile the Wartrike and Squigbuggies and a few Bikes wait in hiding.
I played my first game of 9th edition today!
I won't do a full battle report or anything, but highlights:
1600pt game
I played Goff Orks with a transport-heavy list. Everything except ten ork boyz were in a trukk. I had Ghazzy, a Megaboss, two units of Boys in Trukks, five Meganobz, a Weirdboy, and some Lootas with leftover points. My opponent played Space Marines, (Specifically Blood Angels,) with a lot of Intercessors, some Melee guys, a dreadnought, a Chaplain, a Primaris land speeder thingey?, and a Primaris tank with some Lascannon-ey weapons?? (I don't know the names of anything!), plus a couple other characters. (I think a Lieutenant and an Apothecary.)
Orks performed very well for me, though some of that was luck and some of that was that my opponent didn't handle target priority as well as he could have.
He got first turn and seized the center of the board (to get points from a Secondary objective he had,) and my Warboss and Meganobz were able to make quick work of them - Flat 2 Damage on the power claws was murder against his Primaris marines. Over on the right side of the board, I charged some Assault Intercessors with some Boyz and with a Battlewagon and, hilariously, killed an intercessor with the Battlewagon. (It didn't have any weapons, I just rolled absurdly well.) The Boyz didn't do a ton of damage, but managed to tie up the objective.
Ghazzy was a powerhouse. He absolutely wrecked whatever it was he got into combat with - First the gun tank, then the Chaplain. My Warboss wasn't *quite* as killy but with Brutal but Kunnin he still did a hefty amount of damage.
His army struggled a bit, partly because his first turn much of his shooting was out of range, and the stuff that was in range he didn't do target prioritization well - he shot up my boyz sitting on a back rank objective and chipped down my vehicles, but didn't destroy any of my transports on turn one. By turn two, when he'd cracked open one of my Battlewagons, I'd already crossed the board and started breaking heads, and though many of his units were decent in Melee, nothing had the sheer power to really crack my Mega Armor.
The scariest thing he had, his Dreadnought, did manage to kill three of my Meganobz in one round of combat close to the end of the game, but by then I'd already done a lot of damage. A lucky save kept my last Meganob alive, who came in clutch and finished off his Dreadnought.
The speeder didn't do much - I was surprised to learn that in 9e, Fly units can't automatically shoot after falling back. I managed to lock it down in close combat early and do chip damage with psychic powers and middling melee attacks.
Lootas didn't do anything to write home about, chipping the speeder a bit, killing some intercessors, and generally performing about how I would expect a half dozen lootas to perform.
DoktaRoksta wrote: ]Don't change the list based on 1 opponent. At least try to win with what you're running ATM. It might not be the best thing out there but it only makes you a better general. In my experience, the weaker your list - the better your skill gets (if you try, ofc). You can not afford to make as many mistakes as you could have otherwise. And you start to notice more tactical possibilities when you're forced to use your brain and not just get the best possible net list and steamroll the enemy.
I was having similar thoughts today.
I mean I play for fun so losing isn’t a biggie, the last game we played was very even.
I would like to improve my list a bit so maybe I’ll play my list but am tempted to try it with a Wazbom.
Also I’ll need to adjust it a bit as the last time I played was before the points increase
Yeah, very good point. It will be boring for your buddy soon to loose all the time. Keep it balanced and make the experiments to know your option for more serious games on tournaments. I play againts the IG on a beerhammer evening and man have to be careful. It should be fun.
DoktaRoksta wrote: My buddy is clearly disappointed with how his ultramarines are performing against my Orks so is switching to Drukhari My list is kind of tuned towards the tanky aspect of marines and heavily fast/melee focussed. I’m guessing this may not perform as well against Drukhari so any tips in tuning my list against this new foe is much appreciated.
He seems very overconfident of steamrollering me.
Sorry should say, my recent lists have been based around goff beta strike pressure lists, heavy on the squigs (squighogs, squigboss, killrg) but I have a few koptas, a few bikes and other things like a dread, Kommandos, snaggas, boys, and other stuff I can use. I could supplement with more coptas, or a few buggies If that’s the best way to tailor the list.
so kill rigs and Cavalry units, squigosaurs squighogs smash squigs etc, struggle with the terrain and often fail to get in early then die to eradicator or dreadnaught fire.
DoktaRoksta wrote: My buddy is clearly disappointed with how his ultramarines are performing against my Orks so is switching to Drukhari My list is kind of tuned towards the tanky aspect of marines and heavily fast/melee focussed. I’m guessing this may not perform as well against Drukhari so any tips in tuning my list against this new foe is much appreciated.
He seems very overconfident of steamrollering me.
Sorry should say, my recent lists have been based around goff beta strike pressure lists, heavy on the squigs (squighogs, squigboss, killrg) but I have a few koptas, a few bikes and other things like a dread, Kommandos, snaggas, boys, and other stuff I can use. I could supplement with more coptas, or a few buggies If that’s the best way to tailor the list.
so kill rigs and Cavalry units, squigosaurs squighogs smash squigs etc, struggle with the terrain and often fail to get in early then die to eradicator or dreadnaught fire.
I am currently trying to run a goff pressure list
I wouldn’t read too much into my games because firstly I play fluffy friendly games, secondly I rarely play a 2000pt game because it takes too long.
A few things I have learned though:-
1) Eradicators need to die fast, they are the main target of my koptas.
2) You will want redemptors to die fast but it’s almost impossible with what I run. Mek guns are too swingy, squigs won’t do it, boss on squigasaur will if you’re lucky but if you don’t it will die fast. The only time I took it was nob on smasha, charging with a good MW roll, bomb squig, squighog jaws, 4 claw deffdread teleporting in, and some very lucky invulnerable save rolls. Best to tie them up and avoid.
The one time I did though it won me the game as it exploded and wiped all the servitors he was using to hold his his home objective laving just my Dredd. 3) Timing of declaring the waaagh is very important, you need to be sure you can get the max number of units in charge range.
4) Killrig is ok but mainly was used as a blocking piece/bullet sponge.
5) Squigboss hits hard but dies fast.
6) Kommandos are good for clearing objectives, taking objectives..
7) You have got to keep moving, terrain is a problem as manoeuvring round it delays you getting into CC.
Game 1 vs Custodes (and the guy who was the 2nd on the end).
Pretty close game but I lost. Custodes are bloody hard!
Game 2 vs Necrons - after T1 it appeared I will finish opponent off T3. Than I did some epic fails followed by necrons epic fails and my another epic fails. On the end, we agreed that this game never happen and we' ll never speak about it publicly.
Game 3 vs Drukhary - On the end, there was exactly one wrack and one character on the table + about 900p Orks. My mighty victory.
Lessons learned:
- my list is glasscannon. It' s like driving Corvete on cocain. Drive like a blast. But one bad move is bad, two cost you the game. Two detachements could be maybe more appropiete. Low unit count means, bad move = you lost the unit = you lost one of the few units. Dead squad of Koptas is a calamity… etc.
- 330p for squigbuggies… sitting in the back, with the exact weapon profile that suffers on -1dmg reduction, or don' t even hurt (the custodes) or is to strong for GEQs. Does it really worth it? I' m not sure anymore. I have a serious doubt about their ROI. The only reason that paid the point s somehow back is that they are great 3rd TTL - nobody cares about them…
/ yes, I understand now the Tyler Russo list /
- speedfreaks without ES are no-go for me. I need Driven by Dakka and advance and charge. Double disappearing squad of Koptas are too good. And play Attack out of da Sun on one squad again and again is not my way…
- I need some Shockjump Dragstas because of rise of Custodes. 100 shots from dakkaguns had average impact = 1 Dmg. Meeeh
- And because of the rise of Custodes, we need Wazbooms. A lot. Only that works.
Honestly, Speed Mob is a list I like definitely the most from all my lists in last 3 years or how long. You can finaly do something. Great fun.
Nothing to congratulate! My games was not so great (localy terrible, localy briliant ) But it was a proof - my maybe 10th game with SpeedMob? Still list and gameplan “under construction”.
Oh yes, I won the painting part and that' s honestly my true target. So yes, thanks for congrat
Drukhari was 2x3 talos, 2x2 Cronos and usual soup of characters, grotesques, wracks etc. No transports. The guy seems to be pretty surprised what Speedmob do and deployed very bad. But despite the my systematic decimation of his army, he was able to score max on primaries, so it was interesting.
Beardedragon wrote: So.. When you guys do field groups of 10 Kommandos, do you go for the squig bomb upgrade or not?
I've started to skip it, as I find them dying with squig still unused or using it inefficiently just to not waste it too often. If I need to waste points and have nothing but kommandoz to spend it on, I rather get a breacher ram.
@Tomsung: Yeah Custodes is a tough matchup for Speed Mob.
Did he play the -1 to hit banner and Bikes as well?
They have a lot of stuff that hurts us.
The Banner negates a lot of shooting, especially combined with dense terrain that means everything besides Wazbom and Dragstas can still hit on 6.
Their FNP against Mortals makes Ramming Speed and Chrashing through much worse.
Storm shields give them still a 2+ against Speedwaaagh Shootas.
In cover they still have a 2+ (3+ with Speed Waaagh) against almost all of our weapons.
5 wound Bikes have a solid chance to survive 1 hit from a Wazbom and will always take 2 Rokkits or 3 of our numerous D2 guns. T6 means a lot of our guns will only wound on 5+ which makes it really hard to chip off final wounds.
Strats like transhuman combined with the good invul and the CP reroll have a high possibility of tanking most of our low number of quality shots.
Koptas, one of our best units becomes mostly useless when they have their banner.
Their bikes are brutal against our stuff. That 3 + D3 damage means 2 hits can kill most of our Buggies, even a plane if he rolls hot and they evaporate Koptas and Bikes as well.
There are still a few options for Custodes to bring melee S8. Mostly D2 but still quite able to hurt our stuff..
On top of that they have a lot of good utility strategems and they are good in playing the Objective game against us since they have a similar model count but better obsec.
Finally they have the right army & tools to make the few Secondaries that Speedmob has really hard (Stranglehold, Get da good Bitz, Grind them down).
All the kill objectives don't give up many or any points at all (No Prisoners, Abhor the witch, bring it down) and the others aren't that great as well (engage which basically means loosing those engaging units against bikes really fast)
Assassination gives up 10 points but is hard to achieve as well.
Beardedragon wrote: So.. When you guys do field groups of 10 Kommandos, do you go for the squig bomb upgrade or not?
I've started to skip it, as I find them dying with squig still unused or using it inefficiently just to not waste it too often. If I need to waste points and have nothing but kommandoz to spend it on, I rather get a breacher ram.
ive started thinking the same really. The only reason i would ever be able to get a good squig off is if i start 9 inches from the deployment zone, in which im already playing super risky. If i dont get turn 1 they are dead.
So thats not really a viable strategy. In my goff charge list i cant really see when i should be able to fire it. If i want to go for a turn 1 charge, then the kommandos will be advancing, and if i go for a turn 2 charge, i still wouldnt go within 12 inches of my enemy just to fire a squig bomb, because my enemy will move up 6 inches in most cases in his turn, and get like a 5-6 inch charge, which gets my kommandos killed. So without being able to advance and firing them, there doesnt seem to be a time where the squig bombs makes any sense on kommandos. Not unless you wanna go risky play as, i mentioned, and start 9 inches away to begin with and hope for a turn 1, or you expect your kommandos to be alive AFTER you have charged and he has had his turn after which you can then shoot off your squigs.
I should remove mine as well from my upcomming tournement list. Which annoys me as i JUST got them painted.
Ive been toying a bit with 3x2 mek gunz with Makari giving them a leadership of 6 within 12 inches. I dont know if ill go for it, but for some backline shooting to hold the back with maybe 2x10 grots it seems okay. While still running a 20 trukk boyz, 30 kommandos, 30 stormboyz and 9 squighogs.
Also maybe 5 or 6 Killa Kanz being deepstriked (deepstruck?) in.
Grotrebel wrote: @Tomsung: Yeah Custodes is a tough matchup for Speed Mob.
Did he play the -1 to hit banner and Bikes as well?
They have a lot of stuff that hurts us.
The Banner negates a lot of shooting, especially combined with dense terrain that means everything besides Wazbom and Dragstas can still hit on 6.
Their FNP against Mortals makes Ramming Speed and Chrashing through much worse.
Storm shields give them still a 2+ against Speedwaaagh Shootas.
In cover they still have a 2+ (3+ with Speed Waaagh) against almost all of our weapons.
5 wound Bikes have a solid chance to survive 1 hit from a Wazbom and will always take 2 Rokkits or 3 of our numerous D2 guns. T6 means a lot of our guns will only wound on 5+ which makes it really hard to chip off final wounds.
Strats like transhuman combined with the good invul and the CP reroll have a high possibility of tanking most of our low number of quality shots.
Koptas, one of our best units becomes mostly useless when they have their banner.
Their bikes are brutal against our stuff. That 3 + D3 damage means 2 hits can kill most of our Buggies, even a plane if he rolls hot and they evaporate Koptas and Bikes as well.
There are still a few options for Custodes to bring melee S8. Mostly D2 but still quite able to hurt our stuff..
On top of that they have a lot of good utility strategems and they are good in playing the Objective game against us since they have a similar model count but better obsec.
Finally they have the right army & tools to make the few Secondaries that Speedmob has really hard (Stranglehold, Get da good Bitz, Grind them down).
All the kill objectives don't give up many or any points at all (No Prisoners, Abhor the witch, bring it down) and the others aren't that great as well (engage which basically means loosing those engaging units against bikes really fast)
Assassination gives up 10 points but is hard to achieve as well.
Tough matchup for sure!
Meh, no -1 to hit aura but a lot of woods on the table, so the result was the same. Or little bit better, because he had to sit in the woods and it criples his mobility even more. Hitting on 6 sucks. However, the game was pretty balanced, because we have a big advetage in speed. So we can do some tricks. He said, I was the hardest match for him. The result was something like 62:76 or something. Orks can score TTL pretty well with Speed Mob. Than I had about 8VP on No Prisoners and in mission 11 I scored 9 VP on Good Bitz.
I take some dragstas next time.
What is very important is do NOT charge him (mostly) because our melee is weak and mortals will be ignored AND his bloody captain will teleport to you (trick triggered by our charging). I had one game on the same mission againts similar list the day before on TTS and I did exactly this - charged his bikers to deal MW - and it ruined my game totaly.
After getting some more board time:
Is there any reason to take guns on a Transport battlewagon, and/or *not* to take a Deff Rolla?
The buff to melee damage from a Deff Rolla is enormous, while decking out the wagon with as many guns as it'll fit - Four Big Shootas, a Kannon, and a Lobba - did feth all for me. Goff Wagons get S10 on the charge or S9 otherwise, with enough attacks, AP, and Damage to lay down serious hurt. Meanwhile, the 30ish S5 AP- shots I threw out from my guns felt wildly impotent, barely managing to plink off one wound at a time from Space Marines. The guns collectively cost twice as much and did almost nothing, while the Rolla posed a serious threat.
Waaaghpower wrote: After getting some more board time:
Is there any reason to take guns on a Transport battlewagon, and/or *not* to take a Deff Rolla?
The buff to melee damage from a Deff Rolla is enormous, while decking out the wagon with as many guns as it'll fit - Four Big Shootas, a Kannon, and a Lobba - did feth all for me. Goff Wagons get S10 on the charge or S9 otherwise, with enough attacks, AP, and Damage to lay down serious hurt. Meanwhile, the 30ish S5 AP- shots I threw out from my guns felt wildly impotent, barely managing to plink off one wound at a time from Space Marines. The guns collectively cost twice as much and did almost nothing, while the Rolla posed a serious threat.
As you have found buddy I usually don't bother with the guns on a wagon but always try and find the points for a 'rolla, it means you can threaten marines and equivalents in combat and as a transport the main thing is that it gets there and delivers its passengers plus being able to do some decent damage in combat really can come in handy. It is also a big footprint and I have used it to good effect to move block\jam up an avenue of movement for the enemy, soak up overwatch and just generally get in the way so the cheaper the better !
If the rolla meets anything in melee it paid for itself (not the wagon as a whole, the rolla specifically). If a wagon manages to survive long enough to deploy whatever was in it, w/o a rolla its just a big mobile wall but with a rolla it can still mulch things enough to draw significant attention. If the guns fire instead of advancing, you might do 1-2 wounds to something. Might.
I never put guns on them anymore. Bigshoota is "better" than it used to be but still pretty pathetic, and the big guns mess with capacity and/or are quite pricy for a BS5 shot.
Battlewagon gun options definitely disappointed, they really weren't touched at all despite the overhaul basically the entirety of our shooting armory got. Every kind of Rokkit weapon increased in shot count, while kannons, lobbas, and killkannons stay the same? The Zzap Gun continues to be one of our coolest guns flavorwise and the most disappointing gun crunchwise- meanwhile the wurrboy tower basically got the profile Zzap Guns should have.
Zzag zap used to be cool but not anymore. Only wagon + gun combination that works is Kannonwagon with grot Gunner on SuppaKannon and Big shootas that cost you 0 points. That is the only good price.
Technically they can nerf it in the campaign book faq, but currently it’s still the same…
We are orks though…. It will get nerfed… we can’t have nice things…
Like they could have fixed biker nobs but don’t care enough…
So there's literally no reason you can't use disappearing out of the sun the same turn you turn up. If GW don't faq it when they get the chance we're just self needing.
CaptainO wrote: So there's literally no reason you can't use disappearing out of the sun the same turn you turn up. If GW don't faq it when they get the chance we're just self needing.
Yeah. I house rule it so, that one squad can drop or faid in a turn. Not drop and faid.
Waaaghpower wrote: After getting some more board time:
Is there any reason to take guns on a Transport battlewagon, and/or *not* to take a Deff Rolla?
The buff to melee damage from a Deff Rolla is enormous, while decking out the wagon with as many guns as it'll fit - Four Big Shootas, a Kannon, and a Lobba - did feth all for me. Goff Wagons get S10 on the charge or S9 otherwise, with enough attacks, AP, and Damage to lay down serious hurt. Meanwhile, the 30ish S5 AP- shots I threw out from my guns felt wildly impotent, barely managing to plink off one wound at a time from Space Marines. The guns collectively cost twice as much and did almost nothing, while the Rolla posed a serious threat.
I find 4 Big Shootas alongside a Speedboss as 24 Ap1 shots followed by 20 more does enough a dent to merit attention from opponents and then it´s a win. The BW is mostly a distraction after all.
On the Big Shootas + Speedboss note, I also like a Bossbunka full of of them. No one likes spending muntions on a 95 point hollow rock, but when it spits 15 Ap1 shots per turn on top of the Gaze they reconsider.
Just a quick question. I got the Kommandos box for my birthday recently and wondered whether they are better as a squad of 10 or two 5s. Just asking before I build them up
Short answer: Both is viable, depends on what list you run and what will be their job.
If you just want some forward screening and cheap Objective grabbing go for 2 x 5.
If you want something like a Goff pressure list that hurts the opponent turn 1 go for 10.
10 have also a better chance of surviving Overwatch and tie up something shooty for a turn.
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Just a quick question. I got the Kommandos box for my birthday recently and wondered whether they are better as a squad of 10 or two 5s. Just asking before I build them up
I'd suggest building all the special weapons and add a box of (old) boyz and kommando them up with the extra bits you have. Then you can switch in and out weapons as you like, or run two mobs of 10.
Alternatively, get yourself some greenstuff and magnetize everything. I've read that it's not too hard.
Always keep in mind that rules will eventually change to invalidate whatever you are building today. This is not a question of IF, but merely a question of WHEN. Make sure to prepare accordingly.
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Just a quick question. I got the Kommandos box for my birthday recently and wondered whether they are better as a squad of 10 or two 5s. Just asking before I build them up
I'd suggest building all the special weapons and add a box of (old) boyz and kommando them up with the extra bits you have. Then you can switch in any out weapons as you like, or run two mobs of 10.
Alternatively, get yourself some greenstuff and magnetize everything. I've read that it's not too hard.
Always keep in mind that rules will eventually change to invalidate whatever you are building today. This is not a question of IF, but merely a question of WHEN. Make sure to prepare accordingly.
Thank you for all the responses. This really is the most helpful and prolific tactics thread on dakka. (I also have BT and barely anything is posted on their thread).
My list mainly goes for Boys over toys just because that’s what I like and how I think of Orks.
So it has 2x choppa boyz (20) 2x shoota boyz (10) 10x stormboyz 5xwarbikes 3x defkoptas 8x meganobz a pain boy a MA war boss a weirdboy a big Mek with KFF a battle wagon and then the 10x Kommandos
I think the objective grabbing idea would work for the 2x5 squad but I do like the idea of buying another box of (definitely old) boyz and Kommando them up
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Just a quick question. I got the Kommandos box for my birthday recently and wondered whether they are better as a squad of 10 or two 5s. Just asking before I build them up
I'd suggest building all the special weapons and add a box of (old) boyz and kommando them up with the extra bits you have. Then you can switch in any out weapons as you like, or run two mobs of 10.
Alternatively, get yourself some greenstuff and magnetize everything. I've read that it's not too hard.
Always keep in mind that rules will eventually change to invalidate whatever you are building today. This is not a question of IF, but merely a question of WHEN. Make sure to prepare accordingly.
*Cries in two glued deff dreads with melee arms*
I think full melee 85ppm dreads are currently the best dreads, and the squad of two is exactly my favorite size. For any klan since you can make them big krumpaz if you don't run goffs.
Waaaghpower wrote: After getting some more board time:
Is there any reason to take guns on a Transport battlewagon, and/or *not* to take a Deff Rolla?
The buff to melee damage from a Deff Rolla is enormous, while decking out the wagon with as many guns as it'll fit - Four Big Shootas, a Kannon, and a Lobba - did feth all for me. Goff Wagons get S10 on the charge or S9 otherwise, with enough attacks, AP, and Damage to lay down serious hurt. Meanwhile, the 30ish S5 AP- shots I threw out from my guns felt wildly impotent, barely managing to plink off one wound at a time from Space Marines. The guns collectively cost twice as much and did almost nothing, while the Rolla posed a serious threat.
I find 4 Big Shootas alongside a Speedboss as 24 Ap1 shots followed by 20 more does enough a dent to merit attention from opponents and then it´s a win. The BW is mostly a distraction after all.
On the Big Shootas + Speedboss note, I also like a Bossbunka full of of them. No one likes spending muntions on a 95 point hollow rock, but when it spits 15 Ap1 shots per turn on top of the Gaze they reconsider.
speedboss only buffs speed freak models so no planes or BWs
No wolves on Fenris wrote: Just a quick question. I got the Kommandos box for my birthday recently and wondered whether they are better as a squad of 10 or two 5s. Just asking before I build them up
I'd suggest building all the special weapons and add a box of (old) boyz and kommando them up with the extra bits you have. Then you can switch in any out weapons as you like, or run two mobs of 10.
Alternatively, get yourself some greenstuff and magnetize everything. I've read that it's not too hard.
Always keep in mind that rules will eventually change to invalidate whatever you are building today. This is not a question of IF, but merely a question of WHEN. Make sure to prepare accordingly.
*Cries in two glued deff dreads with melee arms*
I think full melee 85ppm dreads are currently the best dreads, and the squad of two is exactly my favorite size. For any klan since you can make them big krumpaz if you don't run goffs.
sure but i cant run them as anything but melee variants. no scorchas added, no KMBs no nothing sadly.
And next edition it doesnt matter whats best, cant undo the mess i created long ago.
yeah i have 3 deffdreads that are glued for the main 2 klaw arms, one thats also glued for a third and a flamer.
Considering i have been using 3D print proxies because i like the models way better in most cases im tempted to just sell those deffdreads since they just collect dust and has been collecting dust for like 5 years.
Beardedragon wrote: So.. When you guys do field groups of 10 Kommandos, do you go for the squig bomb upgrade or not?
I've started to skip it, as I find them dying with squig still unused or using it inefficiently just to not waste it too often. If I need to waste points and have nothing but kommandoz to spend it on, I rather get a breacher ram.
Believe it or not, I'm with Jidmah on this one. i've started noticing my opponents have adjusted to killing the Kommandos as fast as possible, and with the recent 20% price hike if I forego the Bomb squig and grot its only 5pts more expensive than before. The more important thing for me is getting as many bodies into my opponents deployment zone Turn 1. So losing out on 1-3MW isn't as big as losing out on 1 whole unit not getting into CC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Going to be heading to my first GT of the season next month and updated my Alphork strike list to compensate for the nerfs we got slapped with. Let me know what you guys think and any tweaks I should make. Reminder, the list is less concerned with objectives turn 1-2 then it is with slaughtering my opponent so I can cap all the objectives in turns 3-5 with ease.
Do you know, what does this do to costodes list? Are you able to krump them? KMK are the only ones with the really right profile, but they will be dead turn 2 via custodes bikers.
Sec… what? No idea what are you speaking about
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stormboyz dies on stiff breeze. That is their main problem.
Warbikers are on the other side very good in wound per point ratio. And with the -1 to hit even harder to kill. I don' t say it' s hard to kill them, but man have to use a real power. 5 Stormboyz will be shot down by 10 guardsman with lasguns.
1-2 x 6 Stormboys are viable in every Clan as deepstriking backup for Retrieve.
I switched from 5 to a unit of 6 though, as you really don't want to fail the action because you rolled a 6.
I used to run large mobs with Goffs, but I switched to more Warbikers instead.
They might see more play if Warbikers get a price hike in the future, as they are not very killy but offer some flexibility for different secondaries and are our only fast infantry besides infiltrating Kommandos.
If you plan to win by swarming your opponent turn 1-2 there are better options, if you want some additional scoring options go for some.
They are basically your go-to option if you want a bit more security for scoring in the Alphork lists, but that's all.
Tomsug wrote: Semper, I really want to see the results!
Do you know, what does this do to costodes list? Are you able to krump them? KMK are the only ones with the really right profile, but they will be dead turn 2 via custodes bikers.
Sec… what? No idea what are you speaking about
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stormboyz dies on stiff breeze. That is their main problem.
Warbikers are on the other side very good in wound per point ratio. And with the -1 to hit even harder to kill. I don' t say it' s hard to kill them, but man have to use a real power. 5 Stormboyz will be shot down by 10 guardsman with lasguns.
However, I' m surprised, you skipped the third Trukkboyz. Kommandos price rise and new CA with the mission nerfing the pre-game move, I expected you will skip some Kommandos and make even bigger accent on the Trukks
popisdead wrote: I have about 30 Stormboyz, and mmm possibly upwards of 15 ish bikes (maybe more after converting)?
Are Stormboyz good in Deathskullz but Warbikers better in any list?
Is that a fair assumption?
Looking to where I can apply my painting effort more.
thanks kindly.
exactly what Tomsug said. I experimented with Stormboyz briefly. I actually really love the model and the fluff behind them...to the point where I own like 75 of them Not kidding.
The biggest problem you have with Stormboyz is what they effectively are....boyz. Boyz suck or a few reasons. #1 is morale/durability #2 is mobility and #3 is dmg output. Stormboyz address #2 very well, but they don't address #1 very well unless you take MSU but then you have more problems with #3 Dmg output.
Stormboyz are 2ppm more expensive than boyz, but they die as easily to any enemy fire. The best thing you can do with these guys is use them to retrieve secondaries, but thats about it.
Warbikes on the other hand are Great at #1 and #2 but suck even worse at #3. The beauty about warbikes though is that they are ridiculously durable for their points cost. 25ppm gets you 3 T5 wounds with a 4+ save and -1 to hit. They are a great unit to tarpit things and to gun down light infantry left exposed. Don't expect them to ever do real dmg, but otherwise they work great.
Tomsug wrote: Semper, I really want to see the results!
Do you know, what does this do to costodes list? Are you able to krump them? KMK are the only ones with the really right profile, but they will be dead turn 2 via custodes bikers.
Sec… what? No idea what are you speaking about
Automatically Appended Next Post: Stormboyz dies on stiff breeze. That is their main problem.
Warbikers are on the other side very good in wound per point ratio. And with the -1 to hit even harder to kill. I don' t say it' s hard to kill them, but man have to use a real power. 5 Stormboyz will be shot down by 10 guardsman with lasguns.
However, I' m surprised, you skipped the third Trukkboyz. Kommandos price rise and new CA with the mission nerfing the pre-game move, I expected you will skip some Kommandos and make even bigger accent on the Trukks
Custodes are going to be a challenge. I'm hoping I can just swamp them with units until they die. Their biggest weakness is my armies biggest strength Lots and lots of CC attacks that don't care about receiving return dmg. I can't wait for my warboss on warbike to krump their biggest meanest unit
As far as losing the 3rd trukkboyz mob. I had to make sacrifices somewhere, and realistically while a Trukkboyz unit is a good alpha strike unit, it doesn't do much dmg, Kommandos on the other hand....do work.
10 trukkboyz cost 160pts, on a WAAAGH turn thats 9 boyz swinging at S4 with 4 attacks each hitting on 3s -1AP. Against a Marine profile that 160pt investment nets me 24 hits, 12 wounds and 6dmg the nob brings in 4 hits, 2.6 wounds and 1.33dmg.
10 Kommandos cost me 125pts same WAAAGH, 9 kommando boyz swinging at S5 with 4 attacks each hitting on 3s -1AP +1 to wound, exploding 6s gets me 30 hits, 25 wounds and 12.5dmg the Nob gets 4 attacks, 2.6 hits, 2.2 wounds and 1.85 unsaved wounds for 3.7dmg.
Durability wise, its been my experience that 10 kommandos hiding in cover getting 3+ saves are both more durable and more annoying than a T6 trukk in the open. especially against top lists which bring all the wonderful D3+3 lascannons/blasters/lances etc.
popisdead wrote: I have about 30 Stormboyz, and mmm possibly upwards of 15 ish bikes (maybe more after converting)?
As far as losing the 3rd trukkboyz mob. I had to make sacrifices somewhere, and realistically while a Trukkboyz unit is a good alpha strike unit, it doesn't do much dmg, Kommandos on the other hand....do work.
10 trukkboyz cost 160pts, on a WAAAGH turn thats 9 boyz swinging at S4 with 4 attacks each hitting on 3s -1AP. Against a Marine profile that 160pt investment nets me 24 hits, 12 wounds and 6dmg the nob brings in 4 hits, 2.6 wounds and 1.33dmg.
10 Kommandos cost me 125pts same WAAAGH, 9 kommando boyz swinging at S5 with 4 attacks each hitting on 3s -1AP +1 to wound, exploding 6s gets me 30 hits, 25 wounds and 12.5dmg the Nob gets 4 attacks, 2.6 hits, 2.2 wounds and 1.85 unsaved wounds for 3.7dmg.
Durability wise, its been my experience that 10 kommandos hiding in cover getting 3+ saves are both more durable and more annoying than a T6 trukk in the open. especially against top lists which bring all the wonderful D3+3 lascannons/blasters/lances etc.
I like what your saying here Semper
With the above in mind, and considering the latest CA points changes, do 5 x Mega nobz truck boyz seem more appealing for their damage output and durability vs their cost ??
As far as losing the 3rd trukkboyz mob. I had to make sacrifices somewhere, and realistically while a Trukkboyz unit is a good alpha strike unit, it doesn't do much dmg, Kommandos on the other hand....do work.
10 trukkboyz cost 160pts, on a WAAAGH turn thats 9 boyz swinging at S4 with 4 attacks each hitting on 3s -1AP. Against a Marine profile that 160pt investment nets me 24 hits, 12 wounds and 6dmg the nob brings in 4 hits, 2.6 wounds and 1.33dmg.
10 Kommandos cost me 125pts same WAAAGH, 9 kommando boyz swinging at S5 with 4 attacks each hitting on 3s -1AP +1 to wound, exploding 6s gets me 30 hits, 25 wounds and 12.5dmg the Nob gets 4 attacks, 2.6 hits, 2.2 wounds and 1.85 unsaved wounds for 3.7dmg.
Durability wise, its been my experience that 10 kommandos hiding in cover getting 3+ saves are both more durable and more annoying than a T6 trukk in the open. especially against top lists which bring all the wonderful D3+3 lascannons/blasters/lances etc.
I like what your saying here Semper
With the above in mind, and considering the latest CA points changes, do 5 x Mega nobz truck boyz seem more appealing for their damage output and durability vs their cost ??
I would be interested to know your thoughts.....
Dmg/durability yes, 3 Meganobz are better in most categories than 10 trukk boyz. Loss of kulture sucks for both, but 3 naked meganobz cost the exact same as 10 trukk boyz. The only reasons I don't take meganobz is 1: troop tax. Trukk boyz fulfill my troop tax requirement which saves me CP or a useless grot unit which only serves as a backfield objective holder, something I already have done with my mek gunz. and 2: A lot of the lists I run into frequently look at meganobz and laugh. T5 is great, 2+ save is great...but that is all they have. I run into a lot of lists that pack a lot of high AP multi dmg weapons and the one thing my list is not heavy on is great targets for those weapons. competing for that firepower are Trukkz which nobody shoots at except turn 1 when the meganobz are inside them, Koptas, which can easily pop -1 to hit and maybe the warbikes but those guys are paying almost exclusively for their durability, so its kind of pointless to shoot them.
Theoretically, if their trukk survives turn 1 and they get a good charge off they have a good chance of hurting something important, but with them...that is their only turn they will get a chance to do this in, because on my opponents turn 1 or turn 2 if he went first, they will either retreat from the meganobz and hose them down or put something good in CC against them which will tear meganobz apart.
Keep in mind with all this advice, i've never been a big fan of meganobz. They generally appear to me to be Terminators -1 but for some reason either pay more or the same amount for the privilege of being comparable.
I fully understand why you don' t take meganobz. They go directly againts the basic elementary concept of every good ork list - target oversaturation. They will be the only targets for heavy weapons.
As the Custodes comes to the top, the quantity of heavy weapons will be even bigger. So if you keep himself down on light infantry, better for you.
Just two aspects concerns me
- would be the pure weigh of S5 goff attacks enough? Because on the other hand, Custodes have enough power to kill your stuff pretty fast.
- mission 21 vs. effectivity of your Kommandos
The fun fact is, that Bikers and Koptas have the same T like boyz, so regarding the target saturation, they work well both with infantry or vehicles.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Brian Seipp 2nd on West of Scotland GT with ES Speed Mob.
List:
+ Fast Attack
Warbikers [8 PL, 155pts]
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 5x Warbiker w/ Choppa: 5x Choppa, 10x Dakkagun
Warbikers [8 PL, 155pts]
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 5x Warbiker w/ Choppa: 5x Choppa, 10x Dakkagun
Warbikers [8 PL, 155pts]
. Boss Nob: Big Choppa
. 5x Warbiker w/ Choppa: 5x Choppa, 10x Dakkagun
+ Flyer +
Dakkajet [8 PL, 120pts]: 2x Additional Supa Shoota
Dakkajet [8 PL, 120pts]: 2x Additional Supa Shoota
++ Total: [104 PL, 1,995pts, 8CP] ++
No wazbooms, no squigbuggies, squads of 6 warbikers (someone plays Data, hmm?), big blob of KBBs and two Dakkajets
Anyway - new Tactical Innovation on Goonhammer is pretty sad. Anybody complained about Drukhari domination? THIS is the domination. Almost no other factions than Tau, Custodes and the rest of Crushing Stempede.
Tomsug wrote: I fully understand why you don' t take meganobz. They go directly againts the basic elementary concept of every good ork list - target oversaturation. They will be the only targets for heavy weapons.
The fun fact is, that Bikers and Koptas have the same T like boyz, so regarding the target saturation, they work well both with infantry or vehicles.
In his list meganobz provide better saturation than boyz. He invested much more in koptas, mek gunz, and bikes than 1W models. What they don't provide is filling the tax slot, although if the list consists in a patrol + outrider, with just 3 elite slots taken, switching trukk boyz with trukk meganobz would be possible without changing anything, just a matter of preference.
Tomsug wrote: I fully understand why you don' t take meganobz. They go directly againts the basic elementary concept of every good ork list - target oversaturation. They will be the only targets for heavy weapons.
The fun fact is, that Bikers and Koptas have the same T like boyz, so regarding the target saturation, they work well both with infantry or vehicles.
In his list meganobz provide better saturation than boyz. He invested much more in koptas, mek gunz, and bikes than 1W models. What they don't provide is filling the tax slot, although if the list consists in a patrol + outrider, with just 3 elite slots taken, switching trukk boyz with trukk meganobz would be possible without changing anything, just a matter of preference.
It would be worth looking at if nothing else. I technically don't even have to change anything else except 1 unit of trukkboyz. You know what Blackie, i'll give them a whirl
Tomsug wrote: I fully understand why you don' t take meganobz. They go directly againts the basic elementary concept of every good ork list - target oversaturation. They will be the only targets for heavy weapons.
The fun fact is, that Bikers and Koptas have the same T like boyz, so regarding the target saturation, they work well both with infantry or vehicles.
In his list meganobz provide better saturation than boyz. He invested much more in koptas, mek gunz, and bikes than 1W models. What they don't provide is filling the tax slot, although if the list consists in a patrol + outrider, with just 3 elite slots taken, switching trukk boyz with trukk meganobz would be possible without changing anything, just a matter of preference.
It would be worth looking at if nothing else. I technically don't even have to change anything else except 1 unit of trukkboyz. You know what Blackie, i'll give them a whirl
Yeah! I do believe that 3 trukk meganobz are more versatile than 10 trukk boyz. Don't expect miracles though, never forget what they're replacing .
If you're running trukk meganobz, try to get some k-skorchas. It makes them way more versatile and threatening. Cause 3 clan-less meganobz without skorchas are just gona bounce off everything.
Tomsug wrote: 10 boyz are 10 obsec bodies imune to antitank. 3 MANs are just 3 soon to be dead models.
immune might be a big word to use here but i understand your sentiment. There sure is a lot of multi damage weapons out there these days.
I'd like to point out that a meganob in cover is 17% more resilient to overheating plasma than an ork boy point-for-point. And if he's out there in the open, he's only around 11% less durable.
And that is before you factor morale problems.
But the main problem with boyz is that the enemy is still gona have a bunch of anti-infantry guns that he's getting here and there and can't avoid taking.
If you get shot with ap1 d1 - meganobz are almost 3 times more durable than boyz point per point. And if you take ap0 weapons or cover, they're like 5+ times more durable.
So, the only real edge the boyz have over meganobz is when they get shot with dam3 weapons with high ap.
If boyz are shot at with ap4 dam3+ weapon they're almost 3 times more durable than megsnobz out of cover, yes.
Tomsug wrote: 10 boyz are 10 obsec bodies imune to antitank. 3 MANs are just 3 soon to be dead models.
Well, 10 boyz are 10 soon to be dead models to anti infantry firepower. Meganobz can tank a lot of those shots, unlike boyz. And any quality shots that meganobz take is less quality shots aimed at bikes, koptas, flyers, mek gunz, buggies, etc...
Obsec doesn't really matter than often also, especially if boyz and not a quality and/or tanky troop squad are involved.
Well, you have a point because of one aspect I 've found right.
I did some digging and math about the SpecMobS and how to use them effectivelly in Speed Mob.
Definitely the most effective SpecMobs seems to be the Boomboyz and the Flyboyz on Wazbooms.
Boomboyz makes Speedwaagh T1+2 smashagun ap-6 (which is funny) and Tellyport Blastas ap-4 (which is usefull especialy againts Tau and Greynights without invu).
However, what is more interesting are the FLYBOYZ - shift the save from 4+/5++ to 3+/5++ if the range >6”. This obviously affects just the AP 0 and AP -2 weapons.
My question was - does it worth it? How many AP 0/-1 weapons is actually on the table?
Well…. A lot!
All Tau main Tau weapons - simple rifles and burst cannons od devilfishes and crisis suits are ap 0 or -1 or can be improved to -1.
This is about 30% damage down. Not bad at all!
And even bigger difference I see in Boyz vs. MANs. Expecting Tau shooting Bs3+ S5 ap 0 it' s either 10 boyz dead or 1 MAN down = squad alive or squad dead.
I still find a squad of boomboy deffkoptas the best bang for buck.. going from ap-2 to ap-3 is huge with that many rokkits but you lose access to drive by Dakka. Same with flyboys on 5x deffkoptas…
Pyromaniacs on a unit of 2-3 KBB is marginally useful as well. But you are right if you don’t want to touch your deffkoptas klan and don’t use KBB it’s probably best to just throw flyboys/boomboys on a wazbom just to get that little extra push.
gungo wrote: I still find a squad of boomboy deffkoptas the best bang for buck.. going from ap-2 to ap-3 is huge with that many rokkits but you lose access to drive by Dakka. Same with flyboys on 5x deffkoptas…
Pyromaniacs on a unit of 2-3 KBB is marginally useful as well. But you are right if you don’t want to touch your deffkoptas klan and don’t use KBB it’s probably best to just throw flyboys/boomboys on a wazbom just to get that little extra push.
Yeah, Driven by Dakka issue…
The important is, that it' s not only Tau. Custodes or Ad Mech are affected as well, the same Necron warriors popular in my area. So I guess I give a try 2x flyboys wazbooms. Because they cripple down the main of the opponents heavy weapons first and the opponent than chip them down with the mass of rifles. This could help.
You`ll get the cover bonus with BA Wazboms as well + get to keep the Fallback and shoot if they get tagged by some random squad of flying dudes.
Any clan besides BA go for it as it won`t do anything usefull, but since BA Wazboms keep their trait in Speed Mob it`s at least an option.
Same for Koptas, if you run them ES don`t take Specialists, if you run them as anything else Boomboys is a nice option.
I mean lots of tournament ES lists are still taking boomboy deffkoptas they just take multiple units of deffkoptas and the 1x boomboy unit is the dedicated unit for out da sun whereas the other 2 units can fight for drive by Dakka.
The army of renown that I usually see do best has a unit of 6x boomboy deffkoptas and two units of 5x evil sun deffkoptas. But as if you don’t want to limit yourself like that then putting flyboy on that second wazbom without kff isn’t a bad idea… still ap -3 is a huge improvement on the rokkit profile.
gungo wrote: I still find a squad of boomboy deffkoptas the best bang for buck.. going from ap-2 to ap-3 is huge with that many rokkits but you lose access to drive by Dakka. Same with flyboys on 5x deffkoptas…
You get that from just Speedwaaagh! anyways, is going to ap-4 quite as valuable with all the invulns around?
gungo wrote: I still find a squad of boomboy deffkoptas the best bang for buck.. going from ap-2 to ap-3 is huge with that many rokkits but you lose access to drive by Dakka. Same with flyboys on 5x deffkoptas…
You get that from just Speedwaaagh! anyways, is going to ap-4 quite as valuable with all the invulns around?
Speedwaagh is only 2 turns… and if you are using out da sun on the deffkoptas for at least 2 turns they should be around turn 3+ and still be ap-3 (and are likely one of your TTL units anyway)
gungo wrote: I still find a squad of boomboy deffkoptas the best bang for buck.. going from ap-2 to ap-3 is huge with that many rokkits but you lose access to drive by Dakka. Same with flyboys on 5x deffkoptas…
You get that from just Speedwaaagh! anyways, is going to ap-4 quite as valuable with all the invulns around?
Speedwaagh is only 2 turns… and if you are using out da sun on the deffkoptas for at least 2 turns they should be around turn 3+ and still be ap-3 (and are likely one of your TTL units anyway)
2 turns is usually all you need to turn the tide in a game of 40k
Hi guys, I've been playing orks for a while but there are some things that I don't understand, can you give me a hand? Trukk Boyz continues to work with the latest FAQ on embarked troops? Can I make an army of renown detachment of cults and then make another regular one if they are from the same clan? I am slowly setting up a speed waaagh, at the moment I have 6 deffkoptas and 1 per type of squig buggy, scrapjet and dragstas, what do you recommend to take to enlarge it?
Phoenix Lord wrote: Hi guys, I've been playing orks for a while but there are some things that I don't understand, can you give me a hand? Trukk Boyz continues to work with the latest FAQ on embarked troops? Can I make an army of renown detachment of cults and then make another regular one if they are from the same clan? I am slowly setting up a speed waaagh, at the moment I have 6 deffkoptas and 1 per type of squig buggy, scrapjet and dragstas, what do you recommend to take to enlarge it?
1) Yes. Latest FAQ doesn't affect Trukk boyz.
2) Army of renown is an entire army, not a detachment. If you want to play army of renown every unit in your list must be army of renown.
3) It depends on what you want to play. If you desire to field an army of renown, and at 2000 points, you need a tons of speed freaks models and you can enlarge any of the units that fit the army's restrictions. I'd suggest adding bikes before anything else, since you don't have them and they're good in multiple builds.
Warboss on bike
3x deffkoptas
Scrapjet
Shokkjump
Wazbom-flyboy-2x shootas, telly blastas
Play with it a few times and see what you like and add more to what works..
Maybe 6 more deffkoptas or 6 more bikers or 2 more scrapjets or 2 more squigbuggies or tryout a Boostsblasta.. and bring it up to 1750.. and then add a few more to get it to 2k.
Phoenix Lord wrote: Thanks for the answers, how many bikes do you suggest me to buy?
As a intensive SpeedMob army builder - see instagram MekTomsug - I have to say, the final count you need is
3 pieces of each buggy. Now 3 scrapjets and one of each another is ok, but before you finish the models, some another will be great in pack of 3.
15+ bikers
10+ Koptas
2 fully magnetized Jets (my reccomendation = magnetize incl. Wings and tail for better transport)
1+ warboss on warbike
1 wartrike
Phoenix Lord wrote: Thanks for the answers, how many bikes do you suggest me to buy?
As a intensive SpeedMob army builder - see instagram MekTomsug - I have to say, the final count you need is
3 pieces of each buggy. Now 3 scrapjets and one of each another is ok, but before you finish the models, some another will be great in pack of 3.
15+ bikers
10+ Koptas
2 fully magnetized Jets (my reccomendation = magnetize incl. Wings and tail for better transport)
1+ warboss on warbike
1 wartrike
Thanks to everyone, I start planning future purchases.
Avoid packs of 3 shokkjump dragstas maybe, they're better as solo models (aka only one model allowed under the current rules) if you want to rely on their teleporting ability.
Blackie wrote: Avoid packs of 3 shokkjump dragstas maybe, they're better as solo models (aka only one model allowed under the current rules) if you want to rely on their teleporting ability.
I've found two work ok as well. As you don't really need to get the in 9" you usually find a place to drop them.
However, in most of my games, I don't jump them at all. They are fast enough to get where they need to.
Hilarious anecdote: the SJD in my crusade force has rolled the engine upgrade and I slapped the squig tires on top of that - so it now advances 20" which gets you further away than where you can deep strike
Just played a game against emperor's chosen custodes with my bike heavy speed mob 3*8 bikes 2*5 deffkoptas 2 wazboms 2 warbosses a KBB and a nitro rukkatrukk.
I took engage, RND and assassinate and won 90 - 35 only dropping 3 for engage, (maxed nachmund) and dropped 5 from primaries. Infantry and bike Custodes really struggle against ramshackle and -1 reduces they're already limited shooting.
Deffkoptas slay custodes (even if the custodes bikes 5 wounds isn't ideal) although the light cover vexilla means my warbike shooting was wasted.
I played the scouring and basically ignored the centre objective (other than shooting off any units on it) pushing along both board edges. I focused down the bikes and once they were gone my remaining wazbomm had free reign and my deffkoptas could stay out of reach of his charging infantry.
The warbikes became survivable action monkeys in the game completing nachmund and the mission action based tertiary mission. I was lucky to get the final nachmund as I was down to only a 4 man bike squad but I got it. I preferred it to get the good bits and deploy scramblers in this scenario.
As far as I know there are no weapons which are flat d5 so outside of gambling with weapons that are D3+3 there is no truly "ideal" gun for killing custodes bikes and rokkits are probably the best we have. In fact, an extra damage is useful to have as insurance against any units with wound shrugs.
Thank god the custodes bikes can't get a shrug as far as I know. My deffkoptas also rokkited trajan to death. Custodes lack of units meant there was sufficient space to bring my two wazbomms in advantageous locations T2. 3 CP was well worth putting them in reserve and out of reach of the custodian bikes.
Yeah that is always the dilema - starting on the table or burning 3CP. I still trying to keep them on the table… except agains Tau and some Death Guard sets with long range shooting.
CaptainO wrote: Just played a game against emperor's chosen custodes with my bike heavy speed mob 3*8 bikes 2*5 deffkoptas 2 wazboms 2 warbosses a KBB and a nitro rukkatrukk.
I took engage, RND and assassinate and won 90 - 35 only dropping 3 for engage, (maxed nachmund) and dropped 5 from primaries. Infantry and bike Custodes really struggle against ramshackle and -1 reduces they're already limited shooting.
Deffkoptas slay custodes (even if the custodes bikes 5 wounds isn't ideal) although the light cover vexilla means my warbike shooting was wasted.
I played the scouring and basically ignored the centre objective (other than shooting off any units on it) pushing along both board edges. I focused down the bikes and once they were gone my remaining wazbomm had free reign and my deffkoptas could stay out of reach of his charging infantry.
The warbikes became survivable action monkeys in the game completing nachmund and the mission action based tertiary mission. I was lucky to get the final nachmund as I was down to only a 4 man bike squad but I got it. I preferred it to get the good bits and deploy scramblers in this scenario.
“survivable action monkeys” is very good. Yes, that' s what tehy are
The warbikes 3 wounds do mess with custodes d2 quite a bit too. The people on here who advised against charging we're spot on I mostly resisted the temptation to charge in till T4 and 5 (although T2 I charged purely to slow down his footstodes advance, I don't expect to kill anything)
I'd argue that unless there is a really well hidden objective and you're already wiping the floor with your opponent you're unlikely to max Get the good bits so RnD is better.
Id also no longer write off engage for speed mobs provided you're ok with getting 12 VP. By T2 the planes have come in and by t3 my bikes or deffkoptas have been getting into the opponents back field by driving round the flanks.
I'm going to experiment with changing the warboss on bike into the wartrike as it'll give me another unit that can help with engage.
Yeah the big squads of bikers and one wartrike seems to be strong secondary base that creates:
TTL pretty doable 15VP
RnD - you move 6+ bikers forward and do it. 20” range makes it easy. 12VP
Engage - jets + wartrike + bikers doing RnD + koptas = you can do 12VP
And it' s very hard to stop you scoring. Especially for slow cc like custodes
New Tactical Innovations are there and there is what is interesting for us.
Melee at Shiloh - Jonathan Crafton 2nd with the ES Speed Mob
- 2 detach
- not so much Deffkoptas
- full squad of KBBs - 23 warbikers - survival monkeys?
- Nick nanavanti was the first hur hur
Troops 1 Boys 1 Boss Nob Big Chopper 5
9 Boys 9 Choppers 90
Troops 2 Boys 2 Boss Nob Big Chopper 5
9 Boys 9 Choppers 90
Troops 3 Boys 3 Boss Nob Big Chopper 5
9 Boys 9 Choppers 90
Fast 1 Warbikers Boss Nob on Warbike
2 Warbikers 75
Heavy 1 Battlewaggon 1 Battlewaggon Deffrolla + 4 Big Shootas + 1 Kannon Kustom Job- Fortress on Wheels 165
Flyer 1 Dakka Jet 1 Dakkajet 6 x Suppershooter 120
Transport 1 Trukk 1 Trukk 1 Big Shooter 70
Transport 1 Trukk 1 Trukk 1 Big Shooter 70
Patrol - Goff
HQ 1 Beast Boss on Squigosaur 1 Beast Boss Thump Gun Big Bossropper Killy. Relic:Beasthide Mantle 180 -2
HQ 2 Weird Boy 1 Weird Boy Powers: Da Jump, Da Kunch 70
Troops 1 Beast Snagga Boys 1 Beast Snagga Boss
9 Beast Snagga Boys 110
Troops 2 Boys 4 Boss Nob
9 Boys 9 Shooters 90
Elites 1 Komandos 4 Komandos 60
1 Boss Nob Power Klaw 5
Elites 2 Burna Boys 1 Spanner Biggshooter Promanicas
4 Burnas Burners 55
Fast (Free) Nob on Smasher Squig 1 Nob 65
Fast 2 Squighog Boys 3 Squighog Boys 75
Until they curb custodes/tau… orks will have a hard time placing in most major or grand tournaments.
Unfortunately the trend doesn’t seem to be getting any easier as eldar in various forms and maybe Tyranids if crusher stampede gets another boost.
I wish I shared your optimism. In my opinion unless we get like a full on bump like we got in 8th with pa, I think orks have been knocked out of the meta until 10th.
Tomsug wrote: Doesn' t matter! We' ll find the way. I don' t afraid.
Damn straight!
I second that, let's see how the codex's shape up. Besides we are orks, we are meant to struggle and to get on top.
Think of all the tears we are going to cause
Also question, I am thinking of a list that includes Gazz, but I am a bit confused if I can make the other detachments of a different sub-culture to my super command one.
My idea is to keep it flexible, currently I am looking at bloodaxes for the reserve relic for those armies I want to reserve units, also the light cover and fall-back and shoot is nice but I not sure with new rules. Not that I am worried because I prefer running goffs width this list
Also a big shout out to who mentioned that new psychic interrogation secondary. I am looking at it as a really easy 12 point grab. Took also a look at our weirdboy and we can make it tanky, with hard as nails and super cybork body, funny it can fight really well under goff with it's staff.. and it's 75 point's lol. Pair it with Gazz, and a warboss in mega armour with krushin armour and brutal kuning and I smell possibility.
The triple KBB is interesting as it opens up access to a shedload of (semi)reliable mortals with crashing through. I've found crashing through is super swingy with deffkoptas but working on a 2+ seems good. The rivet cannon isn't nothing either.
Obviously emperor's chosen messes with it but they're currently one of the few with a mortals save. Speed mobs lack of psychic makes me conscious of our match up into crowns or even ghaz where we need to be able to cause wounds in at least 3 phases.
Anyone played into tau yet and more importantly has anyone made a successful charge? I have PTSD from their overwatch nonsense in 8th so part of me thinks it can't be as bad.
CaptainO wrote: The warbikes 3 wounds do mess with custodes d2 quite a bit too. The people on here who advised against charging we're spot on I mostly resisted the temptation to charge in till T4 and 5 (although T2 I charged purely to slow down his footstodes advance, I don't expect to kill anything)
I'd argue that unless there is a really well hidden objective and you're already wiping the floor with your opponent you're unlikely to max Get the good bits so RnD is better.
Id also no longer write off engage for speed mobs provided you're ok with getting 12 VP. By T2 the planes have come in and by t3 my bikes or deffkoptas have been getting into the opponents back field by driving round the flanks.
I'm going to experiment with changing the warboss on bike into the wartrike as it'll give me another unit that can help with engage.
Biggest rule to remember with Warbikes. THEY ARE BOYZ! That is it. So you have 3-6 boyz, good for you, they won't accomplish much in CC. The only reason to charge them in early is because you want to tag expensive units which are good at shooting. Or because you want to tag an enemy unit to try and avoid getting shot to hell that next turn
Jidmah wrote: I find his insight on secondaries very interesting - there is way too little talk about these thoughts.
QFT
I had another BA game last night with my wip flexible build. WL on Da Plan, Lootas in Bossbunka, Boyz digging for Good Bitz in my backline and Weirdboy Interrogating. That´s the important parts. Won comfortably vs IF (worst marines I know)
The take home is that you tick 6 VP/turn for doing nothing essentially and doesn´t need to sac units in far away no mans land for Engage or Retrieves. Opponent otoh needs to do this and thus bleeds points and is drawn apart. Tactical win for Orks imo.
How are you doing get the good Bitz in your back line outside of mission 33? It has to be on objectives in no man's land.
And its not about the FAQ its about when you have to do your additional attacks. I just have a faint memory of reading that additional attacks, be it squig jaws, Kill rigs or whom ever, has to be done afterwards, not before. And if we do them afterwards, then you have already done your warboss attacks including his redo attacks from BBK.
in the case of the Kill rig one would have to do the main attacks first, then the trampler squig and the boyz. Not that kill Rigs can have BBK but still.
I've got the core rule book here and can't see an "order of attacks" anywhere.
might be refering to "select a weapon" rules section?
"If your unit is making attacks with more than one melee weapon against a unit, and those weapons have different characteristics profiles, then after you have resolved an attack with one of those weapons you must, if any other weapons with the same characteristics profile are also being used to make attacks against that unit, resolve those attacks before resolving any attacks against the target with a weapon that has a different characteristics profile. Note that all the attacks you have declared are always resolved against the target unit even if, when you come to resolve an individual attack, no models in the target unit remain in range (this can happen because of models being destroyed and removed from the battlefield as the result of resolving other attacks made by the attacking model’s unit first)."
basically you must resolve all attacks with a particular weapon before you move on to the next weapon.
Also when is Goonhammer going to do an Ork faction focus?!? No respect I tell ya!
(Also also Seth the mad dok is ditching orks for tau)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
gungo wrote: There is a strat that makes the rivet kannon reroll 1-2s to hit.. which isn’t bad on a unit of 3
ya it's not nothing especially for only 1cp although it has to be within 12" I believe. I normally save it for my wazbomms or deffkoptas (only reroll 1s)
CaptainO wrote: Also when is Goonhammer going to do an Ork faction focus?!? No respect I tell ya!
To be honest, it will probably better if they don't...
No one at goonhammer really plays orks as their primary army, so anything the write will be written from the perspective of someone observing or facing them which rarely ever turns out well.
Then a ton of people will read that half-baked stuff and use it to tell actual ork players how they are wrong.
No doubt it would be better if it was a pure Ork player writing the piece but they do seem pretty switched on so I'm always up intrigued to see what they say. (Even if I might not agree with it)
CaptainO wrote: Also when is Goonhammer going to do an Ork faction focus?!? No respect I tell ya!
To be honest, it will probably better if they don't...
No one at goonhammer really plays orks as their primary army, so anything the write will be written from the perspective of someone observing or facing them which rarely ever turns out well.
Then a ton of people will read that half-baked stuff and use it to tell actual ork players how they are wrong.
Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised either if they made mistakes in army lists or some of our rules in general. Unfortunately, they're very focused on FoTM armies which means Orks are definitely not one of their mainstays and are very likely to have little to no idea on how they work competitively speaking.
Goonhammer accepted the existence of Orks as unavoidable mess. That is all. Even when the orks was in top tier, they was often pretty vague in analysis and couple of times I wrote them complex errata in comments because it was so wrong, it was pain to read.
They don' t play orks. And now they are happy they can ignore them. Look at the last Competitive Innovation - Nick Nanavati was in final againts orks. And what game they choosed to analyze? Tau… they analyzed couple of times before in the same article.
Before the new codex, they seemed to be pretty happy to have some ork successes as an interesting spin in the article. Freebota buggy spam and all the story from last 6-8 months seems to created some PTSD or something
Unless they get a real ork player in the team, don' t expect anything ork-related. I used their CI articles to check what' s going on around and as a selection of bigger events and look on the orks myself in BCP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just to be absolutely clear - I like their page and I like CI. I think it' s one of the best that exists.
Just don' t expect a deep dive into ork army there…
Chaosace86chris wrote: Can I convert an ork deffkopta into an ork 4 wheeler with 2 big shootas rokits and a rolecage?and iif so what do I classify it as
If you made it large enough and armed it appropriately, it could probably stand in for any of the buggies.
I have a Scrapjet made from a Deffkopta, a Primaris Outrider bike and a Messerschmitt.
Nabersky wrote: Hi, anyone can check Mark's Perry day 1 undefeated list at cherokee open? I'm wondering how he adjusted to custodes meta.
Day 1 isn't always a great barometer just because you can easily miss match ups, but basically whoops all meganobz, kanz and squighogs, with a couple of battlewagons.
Holy gak, that's quite similar to the list I was planning to play tomorrow
I just have 2x beastsnagga boyz instead of 2x MANz to pay less CP and because I don't own that many MANz to begin with. Also more rokkits on then kanz.
CaptainO wrote: Also when is Goonhammer going to do an Ork faction focus?!? No respect I tell ya!
To be honest, it will probably better if they don't...
No one at goonhammer really plays orks as their primary army, so anything the write will be written from the perspective of someone observing or facing them which rarely ever turns out well.
Then a ton of people will read that half-baked stuff and use it to tell actual ork players how they are wrong.
Yeah. I wouldn't be surprised either if they made mistakes in army lists or some of our rules in general. Unfortunately, they're very focused on FoTM armies which means Orks are definitely not one of their mainstays and are very likely to have little to no idea on how they work competitively speaking.
i still remember when they said megadreads "Gained" ere we go in 9th edition .......they had ere we go in 8th edition they gained nothing.
Nabersky wrote: Hi, anyone can check Mark's Perry day 1 undefeated list at cherokee open? I'm wondering how he adjusted to custodes meta.
Day 1 isn't always a great barometer just because you can easily miss match ups, but basically whoops all meganobz, kanz and squighogs, with a couple of battlewagons.
I'm sorry, that isn't a real competitive list is it? Grabbing Klaw and Wrecking ball is 20pts wasted for no reason. Thats 2 extra attacks at S8(6-4) -3AP 2dmg but hits on 5s and 2 extra attacks that are S10(8-6) -1AP 2dmg but again hits on 5s... Even if you put them next to the nob banner which...is itself stupid, it just doesn't make sense.
SemperMortis wrote:I'm sorry, that isn't a real competitive list is it? Grabbing Klaw and Wrecking ball is 20pts wasted for no reason. Thats 2 extra attacks at S8(6-4) -3AP 2dmg but hits on 5s and 2 extra attacks that are S10(8-6) -1AP 2dmg but again hits on 5s... Even if you put them next to the nob banner which...is itself stupid, it just doesn't make sense.
If he puts Ghaz Makari and the Nob w banner in one wagon, 2x5 MANz in the other and jumps the 8 man squad, then using the double buffs of the Nob w/banner and Ghaz to have all the MANz hitting on 2+. The kustom shootas just to keep em cheap as if they go 2nd I imagine they stand to lose one or both wagons. Seems like a pretty startling Beta strike list. I agree the wagon upgrades seem wasted, and he should probably have tried for a bomb squig.
I wonder if they spend a turn just shooting from the wagons to clear screens and letting the wagons charge if able. Then drop everything and charge the whole table turn 2. I could see opponents getting into trouble if they focus too much on the kans or squighogs and let the wagons get up the table. The wagons themselves probably hold up pretty well to Custodes Melee with Ramshackle and a boatload of wounds.
Big weakness seems to be:
-1 damage, but the meta is shifting a bit away from that. Tau and Custodes don't have that and the list is not reliant on re-rolls into janitors, although transhuman against whomever gets the flat 3D buff would still hurt.
Assasinate - lots of characters, many up front
Bring it down - Kans and wagons bleed these so badly
SemperMortis wrote:I'm sorry, that isn't a real competitive list is it? Grabbing Klaw and Wrecking ball is 20pts wasted for no reason. Thats 2 extra attacks at S8(6-4) -3AP 2dmg but hits on 5s and 2 extra attacks that are S10(8-6) -1AP 2dmg but again hits on 5s... Even if you put them next to the nob banner which...is itself stupid, it just doesn't make sense.
If he puts Ghaz Makari and the Nob w banner in one wagon, 2x5 MANz in the other and jumps the 8 man squad, then using the double buffs of the Nob w/banner and Ghaz to have all the MANz hitting on 2+. The kustom shootas just to keep em cheap as if they go 2nd I imagine they stand to lose one or both wagons. Seems like a pretty startling Beta strike list. I agree the wagon upgrades seem wasted, and he should probably have tried for a bomb squig.
I wonder if they spend a turn just shooting from the wagons to clear screens and letting the wagons charge if able. Then drop everything and charge the whole table turn 2. I could see opponents getting into trouble if they focus too much on the kans or squighogs and let the wagons get up the table. The wagons themselves probably hold up pretty well to Custodes Melee with Ramshackle and a boatload of wounds.
Big weakness seems to be:
-1 damage, but the meta is shifting a bit away from that. Tau and Custodes don't have that and the list is not reliant on re-rolls into janitors, although transhuman against whomever gets the flat 3D buff would still hurt.
Assasinate - lots of characters, many up front
Bring it down - Kans and wagons bleed these so badly
I’m confused by the list…
I mean if you are going all in on battlewagon meganobs you would think he would actually take a foot warboss or mega warboss in the detachment because they are actually very good with mega nobs… better then the banner nob at least..
Banner nob buffs the Killa Kans. It's the one thing it can do over a regular Warboss or even Ghaz. Nothing else in the army does.
I would be interested to see how that remotely plays into an army like Tau. Any y'all have much success into them yet? I tried my first game and a casual list brow beat me pretty badly.
That big slab of meganobs is also susceptible to morale, not sure it is worth paying for the banner, you would probably be better off with dreads if your intention is to melee and handle shaft with the kans.
Honestly i don't consider kans with out rockets even worth it. But i guess you have plans? I am not a fan of one dimension plans of melee only but some decent shooting for support would be nice.
Another thing is you might want to replace the warboss on bike for warboss in mega armor which is more killy and durable. I would also give hard as nails to the weirdboy if you don't wish to lose it and execute the secondary.. but if you only want to cast jump there is no need for the relic.
that's my list for gazz, kommandos are for screening and bikes for actions, HQ act has shock you avoid trying to engage you want to be engaged.
secondaries:
-engage all fronts
-psychic interrogation
- depends on engagement, but for most armies the good bit's is enough, for something like custodes, I would go for RND since holding middle would not be feasible
tulun wrote: Banner nob buffs the Killa Kans. It's the one thing it can do over a regular Warboss or even Ghaz. Nothing else in the army does.
I would be interested to see how that remotely plays into an army like Tau. Any y'all have much success into them yet? I tried my first game and a casual list brow beat me pretty badly.
I don't think Banner nob can buff the Killa Kans.
They are a Gretchin unit, so they don't get the Clan, so Banner can't help them.
And am I correct in saying strays now effect them which is different to 8th (Kans being the only unit you'd want to use a strat on... Maybe badmoon Mel gunz)
tulun wrote: Banner nob buffs the Killa Kans. It's the one thing it can do over a regular Warboss or even Ghaz. Nothing else in the army does.
I would be interested to see how that remotely plays into an army like Tau. Any y'all have much success into them yet? I tried my first game and a casual list brow beat me pretty badly.
Ya sure but I would still rather have a warboss to buff the multiple meganobs then an expensive and easily killable banner nob that’s probably not in range of killakans anyway.
A ard as nails, krushin armor mega warboss w makari fnp is one of the toughest character we have.
If he puts Ghaz Makari and the Nob w banner in one wagon, 2x5 MANz in the other and jumps the 8 man squad, then using the double buffs of the Nob w/banner and Ghaz to have all the MANz hitting on 2+. The kustom shootas just to keep em cheap as if they go 2nd I imagine they stand to lose one or both wagons. Seems like a pretty startling Beta strike list. I agree the wagon upgrades seem wasted, and he should probably have tried for a bomb squig.
I wonder if they spend a turn just shooting from the wagons to clear screens and letting the wagons charge if able. Then drop everything and charge the whole table turn 2. I could see opponents getting into trouble if they focus too much on the kans or squighogs and let the wagons get up the table. The wagons themselves probably hold up pretty well to Custodes Melee with Ramshackle and a boatload of wounds.
Big weakness seems to be:
-1 damage, but the meta is shifting a bit away from that. Tau and Custodes don't have that and the list is not reliant on re-rolls into janitors, although transhuman against whomever gets the flat 3D buff would still hurt.
Assasinate - lots of characters, many up front
Bring it down - Kans and wagons bleed these so badly
The issue is that 2x5 Manz is 300pts, 2 battlewagons equipped like that are 260pts, Ghaz, Makari and Banner nob is another 425pts. So just those 2 models on the table turn 1 is 985pts. So almost Half your army is 2 models which are T7, 16wounds and 3+ armor. I don't know of any army right now that would struggle to delete a pair of Battlewagons turn 1 leaving their contents exposed and in the open. And if they go first and do that your list is functionally dead turn 1. The rest of the army is filled in with slow units (Kanz) and relatively fast units (Squig riders) so they don't synergize and leave your opponent with easy choices on what to kill. Pop those Wagonz, focus fire the riders and then switch to meganobz/kanz to your hearts content.
Game 1: Game literally ended turn 1. Opponent conceded turn 1 after I had tabled about 75% of his list turn 1 without him even getting much more than a handful of casualties from overwatch and exploding vehicles. I was able to go first and it was a blood bath. All 3 units of kommandos were able to Toe in cover a host of his units ranging from heavy tanks to light infantry. The Trukkboyz weren't able to get into combat because by the time they got there their targets were dead. The Trukk Meganobz charged a Hellhound and blew it, and themselves up (a bit). Warbosses never left their trukkz, the real stunner was incredible luck rolling with my Deffkoptas (3 units of 3). 1 Unit managed 8 hits and 5 unsaved wounds which blew up a hellhound and a huge swathe of enemy models. In CC they were as decimating as ever. 27 S6 -1AP attacks is just devastating. At this point my opponent conceded there would be no chance of him being able to do anything beyond possibly scoring a few primary points.
Game 2: We reset the board, changed deployment and went again, this time we gave him 1st turn. End of his shooting phase he had taken 1 midfield objective, cleared me off (kommandos) a 2nd objective but hadn't been able to touch it and was working towards the 3rd center objective which was being guarded by Camping Kommandos. Turn 1 for him ended with 20 dead Kommandos and about 5-6 dead Warbikes as well as a Trukk down to 1 wound.
Repeating what happened last game my alphork strike list went forward, this time significantly weakened by the losses but still for the most part able to function. My opponent never fired at my Mekgunz. So turn 1 Zagstruk popped out 3, moved 12 and was in easy assault range of a host of targets, Trukk Meganobz joined him after the trukk moved 6 (it was fully bracketed) and were able to advance to the point where they could get an easy charge vs a pair of hellhounds. Warboss also hopped out before the trukk moved and was easy range to a sentinel. Unit of Warbikes advanced forward (what was left of it) and gunned down a few guardsmen and then rolled double snake eyes for the charge so they failed (Jerks). On the opposite flank my Hidden Kommandos made their presence known by bursting out of cover, joined by the Trukk boyz and were able to gun down some guardsmen before bum rushing a tank platoon, tying it up for that turn and the next before it was dead.
Game 2 ended at the end of Turn 2 as my opponent conceded he had no chance of even scoring anymore primaries as everything was tied up in CC or about to die.
Lessons learned for me though is that while killing is a lot of fun, sometimes discretion is going to win me more games rather than brute force. I lost out on 4 Primary points on turn 2 because turn 1 I didn't properly move my warboss nor my Deffkoptas to tag an objective which would have given me 1, 2 and more instead of just 1 and 2.
Secondaries for me were Behind Enemy lines (No kidding right ), Bring it down (enemy had a lot of tanks and vehicles) and Retrieve. The thought process behind not going for the third secondary right away is that if I can table my opponent or at least reduce them to not having much of a chance of stopping me, I can easily do this on multiple table quarters turns 3-5.
Out of curiosity, have you seen any holes on your list so far? I am really interested how you would face against something similar or maybe like Tyranid stampede or lots of fight first , I think from Slanesh, would do to your list?
I am also curious how your list would handle something like Custodes or death guard where melee engagement isn't favourable because of all the shenanigans they can pull?
Also, have you had a chance to play the new tau, do you have any thoughts?
I hope you could share some light on that discussion since i would be very interested to hear your thoughts.
Out of curiosity, have you seen any holes on your list so far? I am really interested how you would face against something similar or maybe like Tyranid stampede or lots of fight first , I think from Slanesh, would do to your list? I am also curious how your list would handle something like Custodes or death guard where melee engagement isn't favourable because of all the shenanigans they can pull? Also, have you had a chance to play the new tau, do you have any thoughts?
I hope you could share some light on that discussion since i would be very interested to hear your thoughts.
I have used a similar list against custodians, Grey knights and sisters of battle. And the list does have one very large glaring issue, which is experienced people using decent factions knows that you will call a waaagh turn 1, will then deploy accordingly to hunker down 1 inch behind ruins so that you are bottleneck'ed to fight between the ruins. It means you wont get a full surround.
The list wants to charge turn 1, but if the enemy has hunkered down like that, making you unable to go through the ruins in his starting zone, having to run and charge around the ruins if thats even possible, meaning that often you are forced to go for turn a round 2 charge.
In my case, i use stormboyz instead of warbikers, so i at least can fly. But i cant fly more than 18 inches, still leaving me a good 6 inches from his deployment zone edge, so i wont reach behind his ruins for a surround turn 1. Turn 1 is usually reserved to charging straight up to his frontline maybe except for the kommandos. The deffkoptas moving 14 inches will also still have a 10 inch charge. Im not sure how Semper got all 3 units of deffkoptas in with 3x 10 inch charges. I would say deffkoptas would have to fly up and get in turn 2 unless the enemy moves forward after his own first turn. Unless he only got in with one with ramming speed. Im not sure.
All the new missions are 24" from each deployment edge towards the middle, except for 1 battle map which is shorter, so at least the scouring which was 28 is gone so thats positive. But my point still stands, that it depends on how well your opponent uses his deployment zone ruins to block you out and how experienced he is. If you get turn 1, ive found it more beneficial to go for a round 2 charge so i can get that surround.
If i get turn 2, then i often feel forced to commit to the charge on round 1 to avoid getting shot at for 2 rounds before getting in. If you get turn 1 that gives you more leeway to get in to position. Sometimes going for turn 1 charge is great, but sometimes, it isnt.
So its a really terrain dependant list that also plays with how well your opponent knows how to play. If the enemy can funnel you down in to small corridors between the ruins then you wont get the full surround. And if you cant get that, then you will get wasted.
So the terrain set up can really screw you over. If there are ruins in your opponents deployment zone he can deploy in to then RIP.
tulun wrote: Banner nob buffs the Killa Kans. It's the one thing it can do over a regular Warboss or even Ghaz. Nothing else in the army does.
I would be interested to see how that remotely plays into an army like Tau. Any y'all have much success into them yet? I tried my first game and a casual list brow beat me pretty badly.
Ya sure but I would still rather have a warboss to buff the multiple meganobs then an expensive and easily killable banner nob that’s probably not in range of killakans anyway.
A ard as nails, krushin armor mega warboss w makari fnp is one of the toughest character we have.
I mean totally fair, that's just what he was thinking. Getting those KK to hitting on 3s actually makes them legitimately scary though, as they have AP3 flat 3 weapons.
Had a game against Tau today, with my own spin on the Alphork list:
Tripple Patrol Goff:
Spoiler:
Beastboss on Squigosaurus (Warlord, Mantle, Ard as nails)
MA Warboss (Krushin Armour, Proper Killy)
Makari
3 x 10 Trukkboys
3 x Trukk
3 x 5 Warbikes
3 x 10 Kommandos (each Bomb Squig + Flamer for advance and bomb away)
3 x 5 Stormboys
2 + 2+ 1 KMK
Tau list mostly the usual stuff as Borkan:
Spoiler:
Shadowsun
Coldstar +2 Drones
Ethereal with relic staff
Crisis Commander + 2 Drones
5 Bodyguards with 2 x Airburst + target lock (no cover) + 5 Drones
5 Crisis (Cyclic, Flamer, Plasma) + 5 Drones
3 Broadsides + 6 Drones
3 x 10 Kroot
2 x 4 Kroot Hound
2 Tetras
2 x 6 Vespids
Mission was Data Scry, so 2/3 more and up to 3 extra points / turn for holding 1-3 midfield objectives while actioning at your home objective.
Also you still hold an objective if you get shot off from it.
He went for TTL (2 x Crisis + Broadsides), RND and Engage, my choices were Engage, Banners and No Prisoners (15 VP possible here)
I deployed the Kommandos super aggressively, as he had lots of out of LOS shooting with some of that ignoring cover.
Makari and the Mek Guns were camping and screening backfield, the rest, especially the trukks tried to hide as good as possible.
I went first and didn`t call Waaagh, as he deployed everything besides the Kroot stuff very far back and his scout-move Kroot had made any fun ideas of the Kommandos basicly impossible. Still i went all in with the Kommandos and they killed all of his Kroot, while my Trukks and the Beastboss positioned themselves for the turn 2 Waaagh.
My Bikes boosted on all the objectives, togeher with the Stormboys who all raised Banners.
His first turn he whiped all the Kommandos and had to use almost all the Dakka for that, so no other losses this turn.
My second turn i continued to score while my Trukkboys, the MA Boss and 2 x 5 Bikes yeeted into his both Crisis Teams and the Broadsides, with one unlucky Trukk eating his only overwatch and dying, no questions asked.
I knew he would kill that wave as well, so i screened the whole table as his Vespids and Tetras were still in reserve and 2 of those had to come in far back in his deployment zone.
After his second turn all the Trukkboys, the 10 Bikes and the MA Warboss were dead as well.
I know i was gonna get tabled, so in turn 3 i proceded with my plan, maxed out Primaries (well, technically i did at the start of turn 4) and had all but 1-2 objectives under my control. The Beastboss charged his Coldstar, who... survived. (But got beaten up in his turn as he failed to kill him shooting in cc and died in his fight phase. )
I had to give up 100% screening as well, so he could finish RND in his turn, where he killed 2 Trukks and 2 Mek Guns as well as the remaining Bikers and Stormboys.
Turn 4 i had left Makari, 2 Mek Guns and the Squigboss (2 wounds).
He had 4 dudes in each Crisis Team + 3 Broadsides but no more Drones and his other 3 HQ`s + the Tetras and Vespids.
Squigboss charged the Broadsides and only lost 1 wound in overwatch, after that he killed two of them - nice!
At that point we called it a day, as i was 20+ VP`s ahead and even with maxing everything out he would score 15 tops, so it would have been something like 90:60 in the end.
Would probably have been tabled turn 4 or 5 though.
I have to say, that might be the worst of all missions for Tau against a list like this and having turn 1 certainly helped me.
Really missed the Squigbuggies, they would have been fantastic to chip away drones, they were basicly eating most of my output and after that he still had the 2+ AS upgrade on 1 dude in each Crisis team, thats really tough to chip through, especially with 1 unit having really mean overwatch and afterwards shooting in close combat.
The 3 x 5 Stormboys + Bikes were fantastic for scoring, which is really a thing you need in close games when your Boys die fast and you won`t do enough damage.
And honestly, i don`t see that list tabling lots of the top armies right now, as both Tau and Custodes can tank lots of the AP1 melee and have additional stuff that hurts us a lot.
Besides that, for small tournaments winning 3 times with ~80 points might be enough, but for anything bigger you need to score 90+ reliably if you aim for top placings.
And to be honest, while the list puts a lot of pressure on the opponent and there are armies like guard that get absolutely wrecked by it, 3 of the top tier armies (DE, Tau, Custodes) can easily give us a hard time. I guess Admech is kinda of the table for now, not sure about Eldar. They have really mean indirct fire power and can get in melee on their terms with the "put stuff in reserve if i don`t go first" strat and other tricks like the Gate and Strands of fate.
I did not really miss the Koptas today, as they can`t advance and charge and most opponents know to stay 28" away at deploying and -1 to hit terain / custodes banner makes their shooting basically useless.
The Squigboss is reaaally expensive, but man i love the model and thus play him every time i get the chance to. I guess he would be the first to skip though, which could free up some points. On the other hand he hits really hard, i don`t see any point in running a regular boss on foot. Zagstruk and / or Snikrot might be actual alternatives for him.
Gonna have a rematch tomorow (maybe Tau Sept instead of Borkan but otherwise mostly the same list) and maybe even a game against Eldar.
Any list ideas to try? I have played Speed Mob a LOT, so for now i`m gonna stick with Alpork a bit.
Have another list as Death Skulls for full ObSec and a Blood Axe one to utilise some of the cool strats, but today the Goff trait was solid.
Well the game plan isn`t go first by default, but in that special case it helps.
It will still take all of the Tau Dakka to clear those 30 Kommandos, so the "second" wave can come in unmolested.
I`m afraid this will be the problem with all Tau matchups with the Alphork list, as they will run 1 unit of Airburst Crisis all the time and have SMS on top of that.
I still managed to deploy them with some LOS blockers / dense terrain between them and all the stuff that needs LOS, so that was the best i could go for unless placing them in my own deployment zone.
But since Tau have Strike & fade and good range as well, that wouldn`t have made a difference. If i place them in strategic reserve i just loose my trukks to them, so it`s still the better trade that way.
Deploying them aggressivly is still the best way to go against Tau as you Trukk Boys and Warbikers can easily go for 24"+ charges if i need to and it really pushes them off the no mans land for 2 turns which will help a lot with scoring. Sure its probably loose but thats still a good trade if you take the lead on primaries with that.
Especially in 2/3 more missions - Tau really hate those.
I have used a similar list against custodians, Grey knights and sisters of battle. And the list does have one very large glaring issue, which is experienced people using decent factions knows that you will call a waaagh turn 1, will thendeploy accordingly to hunker down 1 inch behind ruins so that you are bottleneck'ed to fight between the ruins. It means you wont get a full surround.
The list wants to charge turn 1, but if the enemy has hunkered down like that, making you unable to go through the ruins in his starting zone, having to run and charge around the ruins if thats even possible, meaning that often you are forced to go for turn a round 2 charge.
In my case, i use stormboyz instead of warbikers, so i at least can fly. But i cant fly more than 18 inches, still leaving me a good 6 inches from his deployment zone edge, so i wont reach behind his ruins for a surround turn 1. Turn 1 is usually reserved to charging straight up to his frontline maybe except for the kommandos. The deffkoptas moving 14 inches will also still have a 10 inch charge. Im not sure how Semper got all 3 units of deffkoptas in with 3x 10 inch charges. I would say deffkoptas would have to fly up and get in turn 2 unless the enemy moves forward after his own first turn. Unless he only got in with one with ramming speed. Im not sure.
All the new missions are 24" from each deployment edge towards the middle, except for 1 battle map which is shorter, so at least the scouring which was 28 is gone so thats positive. But my point still stands, that it depends on how well your opponent uses his deployment zone ruins to block you out and how experienced he is. If you get turn 1, ive found it more beneficial to go for a round 2 charge so i can get that surround.
If i get turn 2, then i often feel forced to commit to the charge on round 1 to avoid getting shot at for 2 rounds before getting in. If you get turn 1 that gives you more leeway to get in to position. Sometimes going for turn 1 charge is great, but sometimes, it isnt.
So its a really terrain dependant list that also plays with how well your opponent knows how to play. If the enemy can funnel you down in to small corridors between the ruins then you wont get the full surround. And if you cant get that, then you will get wasted.
So the terrain set up can really screw you over. If there are ruins in your opponents deployment zone he can deploy in to then RIP.
Exactly this !
I have been trying to run a Goff pressure list, but I am always playing on the WTC 2022 maps and they are very heavy on terrain.
My opponent knows what is coming, so deploys to deny the early charges.
I can never get enough units in together to overwhelm my opponent early on.
Tau have always historically been a very annoying army counter to Ork lists in the past when they've been updated for the edition, so it's no surprise they're giving us trouble with their new codex alongside the overtuned aspects from all their out of LoS weaponry. My most recent game against them I found it incredibly obnoxious that they just kept spamming SMS and AFP to target my infantry holding objectives all game, and the Riptide and Broadsides in particular can be an issue with all the buffs they can layer on top for protection.
I only took 1 Squigbuggy with the Nitro Squigs but it feels like I need a full squad of 3 to actually trade fire with the rest of his army.
I talked to Mark Perry at Cherokee about his list. It actually makes a lot of sense in a Custodes meta. Goff MANz hit so much harder than trukk boyz MANz and Ghaz is awesome into both Custodes and Tau.
I ended up getting 41st place, the next highest ork player after Mark it seems. Went 4 - 2 only losing to Crusher Stampede by 5 and losing to Custodes.
Currently really enjoying running my bike heavy speed mob list and haven't come up against any unwinnable match up yet (I need to get myself to another GT to say for certain)
Making use of a defftrike warboss with follow me lads and squighide tires (26" +2d6" range when I call the speedwaagh) to make the charges by warbikes, stormboys, deffkoptas and da jumped meganobz easier.
A 6xdeffkopta squad puts out an eyewatering 72 s6 ap-1 attacks if I great waaagh and use warpath on them. Exploding 6s too
Big gob on the nob with banner gives a heathy 9" +1 bubble.
Ghaz and the rest of the Infantry and characters into the middle then by end of T2.
Physoc secondaries are an option unlike my speed mob list as well as banners. RnD looks good too.
Half thinking of making the meganobz into one blob.
Now that there is 50 points difference to the Kill Rig and the Kill rig is probably not a great idea into a meta with T'au and a million salvo launchers and bright lances.
At 160 points it might be priced to compete. It's priced so that you can run three and its not the be all and end all of your strategy if you lose them.
Now that there is 50 points difference to the Kill Rig and the Kill rig is probably not a great idea into a meta with T'au and a million salvo launchers and bright lances.
At 160 points it might be priced to compete. It's priced so that you can run three and its not the be all and end all of your strategy if you lose them.
I don't like the hunta rig - it loses everything that makes the kill rig good (psyker and character).
I'd rather just take battlewagons at an even lower price.
Its not a variant build, like completely different loadout but same frame and backbone abilities (snagga rules and the squig melee the same but otherwise different). Instead its exactly the same as the Kill Rig except the Kill Rig gets more stuff, and the stuff it gets is the main reason that frame is rude.
Had the Harpoon been an actual powerful weapon and only the Hunta Rig had it i could argue using it but right now its horrendous compared to the killrig and/or wagons with a rolla.
Now that there is 50 points difference to the Kill Rig and the Kill rig is probably not a great idea into a meta with T'au and a million salvo launchers and bright lances.
At 160 points it might be priced to compete. It's priced so that you can run three and its not the be all and end all of your strategy if you lose them.
I just made a freebootas list that uses 3 hunta rigs as distraction carnifexes. i dont have 3 hunta rings so ive yet to test it but i think it could work.
3 hunta rigs is only 480 points, so its a lot of wounds and good close combat for those points. Points the enemy cant deny he has to deal with.
Depending on what you want the kill rig is still better, but you still get good value out of 160 points in the normal hunta rig.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CaptainO wrote: Currently really enjoying running my bike heavy speed mob list and haven't come up against any unwinnable match up yet (I need to get myself to another GT to say for certain)
Making use of a defftrike warboss with follow me lads and squighide tires (26" +2d6" range when I call the speedwaagh) to make the charges by warbikes, stormboys, deffkoptas and da jumped meganobz easier.
A 6xdeffkopta squad puts out an eyewatering 72 s6 ap-1 attacks if I great waaagh and use warpath on them. Exploding 6s too
Big gob on the nob with banner gives a heathy 9" +1 bubble.
Ghaz and the rest of the Infantry and characters into the middle then by end of T2.
Physoc secondaries are an option unlike my speed mob list as well as banners. RnD looks good too.
Half thinking of making the meganobz into one blob.
My only point to this list that i want to say is that the deffkilla has a large base. So if he has to get in first with follow me ladz, there isnt much room for any other infantry to make a charge against the same target
Out of curiosity, have you seen any holes on your list so far? I am really interested how you would face against something similar or maybe like Tyranid stampede or lots of fight first , I think from Slanesh, would do to your list?
I am also curious how your list would handle something like Custodes or death guard where melee engagement isn't favourable because of all the shenanigans they can pull?
Also, have you had a chance to play the new tau, do you have any thoughts?
I hope you could share some light on that discussion since i would be very interested to hear your thoughts.
Biggest hole is the same as its always been. This is a tempo list, so if my opponent is able to counter turn 1 and turn 2 somehow its GG for me. I've been trying to "sneaky" play to the objectives as well to give myself some leeway in terms of VPs. For instance, Kommandos start the game on the objectives usually which means if I do go second I start the game holding 4 objectives which puts the onus on my opponent to shift my green butt off them. Likewise, Turn 1 as everything moves forward I have started to aim my Trukkz at those objectives as well which allows me to continue to hold them with cheap/throwaway units while pushing into their area. Generally speaking this helps in that turn 1 I hold 4, turn 2 I hold at least 3 and turn 3 i'm still on all 3 or possibly 4 which means my opponent never has a chance to catch me up on Primaries. What absolutely sucks for me is the secondaries. Behind Enemy lines is a given since my army likes to be "Behind enemy lines" after that its a toss up for Nachmund and mission secondary.
1 thing I have noticed about Trukk Meganobz though is that while yeah they are definitely better than Trukkboyz as far as putting out dmg on tougher targets, they do seem ....rather mediocre still. Giving them a 4th attack in their profile would have been nice, or making Ork Powerklaws not -1 to hit, but something has to be done to offset their rather lackluster CC abilities for their price. I mean, Kommandos out perform Meganobz with relative ease against all targets. 4 Meganobz against a T7 3+ target get 12 attacks, 6 hits, 4 wounds and 6.7ish dmg. 9 Kommandos and a PK Nob cost about the same and they do 27 attacks, 18 hits, 9 wounds for 4.5dmg and the PK nob does 4 attacks, 2 hits and 1.66 wounds for 2.8ish dmg. So those Kommandos average 7.3ish dmg against the Meganobz ideal target. Against cheaper chaff units its much worse for the Meganobz. The only saving grace in my opinion is that those Meganobz aren't competing against Kommandos for a spot, they are competing against Boyz which are just god awful this edition.
Its not a variant build, like completely different loadout but same frame and backbone abilities (snagga rules and the squig melee the same but otherwise different). Instead its exactly the same as the Kill Rig except the Kill Rig gets more stuff, and the stuff it gets is the main reason that frame is rude.
Had the Harpoon been an actual powerful weapon and only the Hunta Rig had it i could argue using it but right now its horrendous compared to the killrig and/or wagons with a rolla.
Tbh, 3 Kill rigs, 2 Hunta Rigs, with 50 Snaggas in a Bat / Patrol is actually a pretty stylish army, even if it would probably get dunked on pretty hard.
But yeah, the character keyword and 2 cast psyker for 50 points as well as a d3 autohitting lascannon? There's no reason to not ever just pay the 50 points.
I had two more games with Orks yesterday.
First one a rematch against Tau, this time i wanted to see how Ghazgkull would fare in a Goff pressure list and added 2 Squigbuggies for good meassure.
4 Trukk MA nobs were in the fun as well, to cut points i reduced the commandos to 5 - 5 - 6 and the Warbikers.
This time i went second, the Kroot took over the midfield and i lost about 400 points worth of stuff. It`s impossible to hide from all that indirect shooting.
My first turn i killed all the Kroot and managed to charge one squad of Crisis, but no real damage here. My Meganobs failed their 6" charge on his Bodyguard, which did not solely cost me the game but had a big importance.
After that it was an uphill battle, but 1 flank was completely gone which meant i couldn`t get ahead in scoring while i failed to hold foot in his deployment zone as well.
We played the same mission and almost the same lists as yesterday, and it feels like that matchup heavily depends on who goes first.
You can`t hide from all that out of LOS dakka.
Kroot will movement block your Kommandos and Trukkboys so it`s really really tough to get in some early charges.
All the stuff that ends up midfield will die. Fast. The pressure list has really poor staying power and Tau have the tools to deal with it.
Honestly i really think Speedmob is the better choice against Tau. Hell even a pure Green Tide supported by KFf and Dok might work better.
Goff pressure IS fun to play though, and i have the luck(?) to have some great (tournament) players in my hobby club, so i get to play a lot against different meta lists.
My second game yesterday was against new Eldar. Again i slightly changed my list:
Spoiler:
MA Warboss
Warboss
Zagstruk
2 x 10 Trukkboys
10 Gretchin
1 x 5 Trukk MA Nobs
3 x 10 Kommandos
3 x 5 Kommandos
3 Deffkoptas
2 x 4 Warbikers
3 x 1 Mek Gun
His list looked odd at first, but oh boy.
Spoiler:
Eldrad + 2 other Psyker HQ`s (2 Farseers i think)
Avatar
5 Ranger
3 Nightspinner
3 Wraithlords
3 Wraithseers
We had a lot of terrain, but guess what - all his stuff wants either to shoot without LOS, get in close combat or do both.^^
Deployment as usual, Kommandos in cover, trukks hiding and the rest hiding between as far forward as possible.
He went first, put all his big dudes midfield and his indirect fire killed about 600 points of orks.
Good thing was, i had all units in charge range, so i could throw everything besides the Mek Guns and grot in close combat.
In my turn i managed to kill 1 Wraithseer, 1 Wraithlord, the 5 Rangers, 1 Farseer and got his Avatar down to 1 wound - soo close. :(
My left flank has been a giant moshpit that must have started with over 1500 points total while the right side was more about skirmishing and his dudes walking up slowly.
I lost another 300 points with him fighting back.
Objectives were mostly in my hand, but his second turn the Avatar killed everything besides the MA Warboss and 10 Boys who finally knocked him down.
On my other flank i lost all the other stuff and by the end of his turn i was down to MA Warboss, 10 Boys, 2 Bikes, 3 Mek Guns and gretchin.
Together they tried to do some final scoring and got off some charges, but i killed nothing and was tabled his turn 3. Score 97:20
You thought the Tau were good at shooting without LOS - get ready for this as you might face them soon.
Night Spinners each 48" 2D6 S7 AP2 D2
Wraithseers have the same D-Cannon as the Weapon Platform, so D3 shots 24" S12 AP4 and D2 + D6
They could add more but i guess thats what we will see most with indirect fire.
Lots of damage reduction, so bring the big guns or lots of S5 D1.
Strands of Fate are a miracle dice similar mechanic that will give the Eldar auto 6s on certain roll like charge, hit, wound and psi. Also saves which can be mean to tank your one Wazbom wound that got through and they still have a 6++ against.
Can make those D-Cannons very annoying.
Overall there seems to be a lot we can expect with the Eldar book but it`s not like Custodes were you basically have 1-2 builds with a little difference so keep an eye out for elfish trickery. (Harlies look nasty too, especially against Speed Mob).
Why did people stop using the exploding kff big Mek? It seems like it is ideal for protecting a goff pressure list that fails to go first. I mean it was better before when you stacked that 5++ with -1to hit from cloud of smoke… but it is still decent at protecting that backfield when everything is still in your deployment zone.
Since goff pressure is also getting into mega armor nobs as well it’s not bad taking the megaarmor bigmek either and just having him jump in the trukk after and help out.
His list looked odd at first, but oh boy.
Eldrad + 2 other Psyker HQ`s (2 Farseers i think)
Avatar
5 Ranger
3 Nightspinner
3 Wraithlords
3 Wraithseers
I love Wraith units but man that list seems a little cheesy. Wraithseers used to be an HQ unit so you could bring them with the D-Cannon and the character sniping warlord trait and really ruin someone's day. 3 of those plus Eldrad and other Psykers sounds positively painful. With only 5 Rangers I'm guessing he had a patrol so the other two Psykers were probably Warlocks. I think the Avatar is going to be difficult for many melee heavy armies to deal with.
gungo wrote: Why did people stop using the exploding kff big Mek? It seems like it is ideal for protecting a goff pressure list that fails to go first. I mean it was better before when you stacked that 5++ with -1to hit from cloud of smoke… but it is still decent at protecting that backfield when everything is still in your deployment zone.
Since goff pressure is also getting into mega armor nobs as well it’s not bad taking the megaarmor bigmek either and just having him jump in the trukk after and help out.
The 6++ isn't super relevant on the MANz. If you're sitting in cover you're taking 4s and 5s a lot, and out of cover 5s or 6s against most weapons.
Frankly I just find the Big Mek with KFF of either variety way too expensive for what he brings. If you're bringing a ton of kanz and wagons it can be alright for turn 1 to pop the 5++, but the aggro style of ork list often starts with so little CP I'm not sure the 5++ is better than taking a few more bodies.
I mean it’s 5++ for that one crucial turn.. it was more prevalent for buggies pre-speedmob But they were worth more. But it seems alpha ork and goff pressure is crucial turn 1 and there really isn’t much else to do to protect them. You are right though the 2+ save likely means manz and trukks have at least some armor save.
im tempted to try running a tellyporta blasta bigmek. Ded Shiny Shoota is surprisingly lethal, but the tellyporta is only 12" so......and also assault so no badmoonz boost annoyingly.
Pre Speed Mob I used to run the MA Mek all the time, but right now neither Speed Mob nor Alphork can / want to take him.
Only lists I would take him is a Blood Axe utility force, Freebooters Speed Mob without actual Speed Mob and Green tide, all of which are kinda b Tier lists.
With the Custodes, Tau and soon Eldar being a big factor to consider I think the gap between our 2 main builds and those lists is a little closer. Speed Mob is good against Tau but Custodes is a real problem, especially if they run the banner. Alphork depends heavily on first turn against Tau and can't to real damage against Custodes, so it has some really bad maps that makes it hard to score good.
Eldar are kinda hard to predict, as they have multiple good units that hurt us a lot and good utility, but are really expensive. Depends what kind of list establishes here in the Tau / Custodes meta and which of out lists will be better against them.
I'd love to try a MAN & Kill Kan heavy list, but that's the one build I absolutely lack models for.
I have another tournament upcoming and about 2/3 of the armies will be Tau, Custodes or variances of pointy elves.
I decided to skip Alphork for the above reasons.
My Speed Mob had lots of games, so I feel kinda confident playing it.
But it is mediocre at scoring so I need to relay on doing enough damage.
Custodes Banner is a nightmare for them and Eldar might be ok.
Tau are a mixed bag. Speed Mob can do solid damage but Tau hit back hard. Crisis and Broadsides spam can be pretty hurtfull as well, and with the Kroot they have the edge on us in scoring unless Speed Mob goes first.
Our Bikes are the main angle on scoring here, but Tau can handle them pretty good as well as everything we throw there for engage, which will lead to a massive grind.
So I think I'm gonna go wild and go for Green Tide in the upcoming tournament.
I have 150 Grots and Boys each, 45 Komandos, 15 Stormboys and all the Characters needed.
General plan was 3 x 10 Kommandos, 3 x 5 Stormboys, 1 Squad of 30 boys for da jump, KFF, Dok, Warboss, Wyrdboy, maybe 1 Runtherd and the rest filled with Boys and Grots.
Not sure about 2 things:
Which Clan: Goffs help a little bit with Damage, ES help with getting those boys forward faster + advance & charge trait, DS give me lots of obsec and BA offer utility, especially neat tricks from the new book like tactical awareness.
2nd thing is Mob size. Multiple squads of 10 would help with all the indirect blast from Tau and Eldar but are harder to protect with KFF and Dok, which will on the other hand mostly be relevant for turns 1-2.
The characters are kinda bait for assassinate, as you could play them very passively and in an emergency place most of them in Reserve with a few Grot to deny points.
Squads of 10 would make TTL a real consideration if I skip the boy mob of 30 and take 3 expensive characters, which will reduce the amounts of bodies though.
I mean competitive innovation basically said there are only 5 armies that are above 50% win rate now… tau, custodes, tyranid, drukari and genecult…. Which is odd because outside of tau, custodes, Tyranids (crusher stampede) and forces of hivemind (leviathan/genecult) orks did well in placings compared to the rest.
But I appreciate someone at goonhammer finally admitted that the ork codex was absolutely mauled.
Anyway, any win rates are now totaly screwed statistics, because of the masive Tau&Custodes domination. So skip it at all.
One victory and couple of nice places are great. We krump if we want, but we' re already under the radar for any other nerfs. That is good.
Yeah, hopefully this means that GW can actually focus on relevant stuff for Orks that need updates, like the glaring issues for Nob Warbikerz not being updated and how currently specialist mobz can't ride in transports like squiggoths or battlewagons. Even an update to how kustom jobs currently work would be really ideal if they're still obsessed with keeping the one buggy unit per army limit.
The Ross Law FB Speed Mob is interesting. Obsec Warbikers strugle to get enough bodies on objective. Huge bases and simply not enough models. But if you combine them Obsec-Off aura, they start to be really good in controling the objectives. Say hello to obsec-count-as-4-models Custodes dudes…
They do not hold it for the log time but this combination Obsec-Off + obsec bikers is very good for scoring Stranglehold.
So he can play
TTL - Squigbuggies behind the wall, disappearing Koptas and Scrapjets. Hold them back and you can score 15VP.
Stranglehold - see above
Bitz - on one objective too far away of anything and it can be done by the unit, that support Stranglehold in the same time.
That is definitely good build.
What makes me sad is, that obviously all of the Speed Mob lists play the Attack out of tha Sun strictly RAW. I don ' t want to play it like this…
I mean attack out da sun is getting to the point it will never get faqd considering they already did the faq for the 2 codexs that came out a month later… I don’t know if a faq ever came out this late. Critical mass came out in early December. We are already in march..
I don’t think he meant ignoring orks by not getting more models releases.. I think he means ignoring orks by never changing any of thier rules to fix anything. Which is usually true.. things like nob warbikers usually won’t get fixed, critical mass is well beyond any timeline for normal errata and faq, they really should have fixed the 1 unit buggy rule, beyond our codex Strats mostly being overpriced we still have a Strats in our codex that references beastsnagga monster units that don’t even exist. Just lots of sloppy stuff that I don’t expect to change.
gungo wrote: I mean attack out da sun is getting to the point it will never get faqd considering they already did the faq for the 2 codexs that came out a month later… I don’t know if a faq ever came out this late. Critical mass came out in early December. We are already in march..
I don’t think he meant ignoring orks by not getting more models releases.. I think he means ignoring orks by never changing any of thier rules to fix anything. Which is usually true.. things like nob warbikers usually won’t get fixed, critical mass is well beyond any timeline for normal errata and faq, they really should have fixed the 1 unit buggy rule, beyond our codex Strats mostly being overpriced we still have a Strats in our codex that references beastsnagga monster units that don’t even exist. Just lots of sloppy stuff that I don’t expect to change.
I understand the cynicism born from existing patterns, but let's not forget the sign of change we've had lately in how GW does things: the balance dataslate didn't just nerf buggies, it also buffed a 9e army that was well past that perceived timeline cutoff, Necrons. With that precedent, late-game changes become a potential reality for us too, hopefully for the better.
The issues with Orks are well beyond just minor patches, though.
Weak strats, many pretty bad datasheets (Tau saw 79%! Of their total datasheets show up in competitive play this past weekend), super constricting list construction.
Only hope Orks have is our stuff gets dirt, dirt cheap if we want to compete against the power level of the top armies. Like put boys back to 7 ppm as a baseline again.
Attack o' da Sun should eventually get nerfed, and when it does, Speed Mob's ability to compete at the top tables disappears with it. It's too clutch a strat when you can keep 300 (or 600 with Evil Suns) points of copters safe a turn.
Yea, big point drops is what I’m hoping for too. Still, 7ppm boyz would be so prone to leadership problems. If we see a big point reduction armywide I think that killa kans/meganobz would be the way to go.
I understand the cynicism born from existing patterns, but let's not forget the sign of change we've had lately in how GW does things: the balance dataslate didn't just nerf buggies, it also buffed a 9e army that was well past that perceived timeline cutoff, Necrons. With that precedent, late-game changes become a potential reality for us too, hopefully for the better.
Its not so much cynicism as its "experience". In my personal opinion, GW, as a company, does not understand or know how to play/use/write Orkz. Most of our competitive options felt more like accidents rather than intentional.
Our average to good units seem to be nerfed more frequently than top performing units in other factions. No matter how you slice it, a Squigbuggy was never OP. I literally do not own a Squigbuggy and never will because I think they look like crap, but they just weren't OP. Nobody was bum rushing them into Combat, they were sitting back and plinking away with their IDF weapons which amounted on a regular turn to 5.25 hits. Against their best target, Marines, they worked out to 2.3 dead Marines a turn. A 90pt unit killed 40ish points of Marine, good but not game breaking and definitely not in need of a massive nerf to 110pts followed by a nerf to buggies in general. Especially when you factor in the fact that its guns were only 36 and 18' range which meant you had to get close to a target to hit it.
Compare that to Las Chickens which received TOKEN nerfs and are still significantly better than a squigbuggy even after 2 different adjustments.
tulun wrote: The issues with Orks are well beyond just minor patches, though.
Weak strats, many pretty bad datasheets (Tau saw 79%! Of their total datasheets show up in competitive play this past weekend), super constricting list construction.
Only hope Orks have is our stuff gets dirt, dirt cheap if we want to compete against the power level of the top armies. Like put boys back to 7 ppm as a baseline again.
Attack o' da Sun should eventually get nerfed, and when it does, Speed Mob's ability to compete at the top tables disappears with it. It's too clutch a strat when you can keep 300 (or 600 with Evil Suns) points of copters safe a turn.
Should attack out da sun get nerfed? Beyond the fact it cost 2x the amount of the admech version everyone uses as an example the campaign supplement came out 4 months ago (release date nov 6). Are you waiting for 10th edition to nerf it at this point? When is the last time Gw errataed a book that took this long? I was also fairly sure Gw would nerf it since we can’t have nice things even if it’s only useful on 1 unit in 1 army of renown which is Barely able to compete….. but they have completely skipped over touching the ork campaign book and just don’t care… tau and custodes got the typical 2 week release faq and Gw just moved on.
tulun wrote: The issues with Orks are well beyond just minor patches, though.
Weak strats, many pretty bad datasheets (Tau saw 79%! Of their total datasheets show up in competitive play this past weekend), super constricting list construction.
Only hope Orks have is our stuff gets dirt, dirt cheap if we want to compete against the power level of the top armies. Like put boys back to 7 ppm as a baseline again.
Attack o' da Sun should eventually get nerfed, and when it does, Speed Mob's ability to compete at the top tables disappears with it. It's too clutch a strat when you can keep 300 (or 600 with Evil Suns) points of copters safe a turn.
Should attack out da sun get nerfed? Beyond the fact it cost 2x the amount of the admech version everyone uses as an example the campaign supplement came out 4 months ago (release date nov 6). Are you waiting for 10th edition to nerf it at this point? When is the last time Gw errataed a book that took this long? I was also fairly sure Gw would nerf it since we can’t have nice things even if it’s only useful on 1 unit in 1 army of renown which is Barely able to compete….. but they have completely skipped over touching the ork campaign book and just don’t care… tau and custodes got the typical 2 week release faq and Gw just moved on.
Do I think it makes them broken beyond belief? No.
But GW has nerfed almost every interaction like this -- be it Fire and Fade off the board (Eldar planes), into transports (Eldar again!), Pteraxi (bye bye).
A unit you basically can't attack as long as you have 2 CP (which includes psychic, indirect...) just doesn't seem to last that long, nor should it.
I just think it's lame where for Pteraxi it was just another way Ad Mech would dunk on their opponents, and for Speed Mob it's the best tool they have to fight into a meta of superior armies. Sad, but true. Bug GW to give us points cuts. About all we can hope for.
Or, enjoy the ride until they nerf it, 'cause they are taking their sweet time.
It has lasted long enough now that it probably won't get nerfed/fixed. I wouldn't make any major buying decisions based on the way it works currently, but would probably (if I was an Ork player) use it in tournaments if allowed.
I'd be salty as an Ork if they took the time to fix this but left the buggy balance dataslate untouched. That would be rude.
EightFoldPath wrote: It has lasted long enough now that it probably won't get nerfed/fixed. I wouldn't make any major buying decisions based on the way it works currently, but would probably (if I was an Ork player) use it in tournaments if allowed.
I'd be salty as an Ork if they took the time to fix this but left the buggy balance dataslate untouched. That would be rude.
I'd feel better about it if they had dropped a FAQ for Octarius 2 before making that call, but RAW there's nothing stopping you, so go ham. Until it does, only thing you'd have to worry about is if a TO bans it for some odd reason, but I don't think I've heard that happening.
For Orks we'd need something along the lines of what Necrons and Imperial Guard got in terms of some units receiving a CORE keyword (still sucks that Deff Dreadz don't get it for whatever reason) or a datasheet update like how LR tanks got a 2+ save and Orders got updated for them.
EightFoldPath wrote: It has lasted long enough now that it probably won't get nerfed/fixed. I wouldn't make any major buying decisions based on the way it works currently, but would probably (if I was an Ork player) use it in tournaments if allowed.
I'd be salty as an Ork if they took the time to fix this but left the buggy balance dataslate untouched. That would be rude.
I can see the buggy thing being drawn back in the not so distant future to a max of three of each buggy, but no cap on the units of buggies. A slight quality of life change, but not really effecting the competitive power of the units.
The only differences between taking one unit of three buggies and three units of one of the same buggy are maneuverability (singles) and stratagem efficiency (trios).
So I was made aware of the fact that our kommandos dont get a +2 to their save value when sitting in cover that dont already give a save value. They only get +1.
So in dense terrain during shooting and cc we would get a 5+ instead of a 4+ as I thought otherwise. Only light cover and heavy gives the 3+ save total it seems. Apparently theres a rule somewhere stating this.
Also i didnt think this kommando rule applied to close combat but people say it does?
MPROVING THE BENEFITS OF COVER
Some models have abilities that improve the bonus a model receives to its saving throw when it is receiving the benefit of cover — for example, ‘add 2 instead of 1 to saving throws for models in this unit while it is receiving the benefit of cover’. If a model or unit with such a rule is receiving the benefits of cover from a terrain feature with the Light Cover or Heavy Cover trait, then this rule is applied as written. If that model or unit is receiving the benefits of cover from any other terrain features with any other terrain traits, you instead add 1 to its saving throws, in addition to any other benefits of cover that are gained from those terrain features. In either case, invulnerable saves are unaffected.
in any case: [‘add 2 instead of 1 to saving throws.... from any other terrain features with any other terrain trait you instead add 1 to its saving throws']
You do notice kommandos rule is 'add 3 instead of 1 to saving throw', so logically following that example it goes to 'from any other terrain features with any other terrain trait you instead add 2 to its saving throws']'
Beardedragon wrote: So I was made aware of the fact that our kommandos dont get a +2 to their save value when sitting in cover that dont already give a save value. They only get +1.
So in dense terrain during shooting and cc we would get a 5+ instead of a 4+ as I thought otherwise. Only light cover and heavy gives the 3+ save total it seems. Apparently theres a rule somewhere stating this.
Also i didnt think this kommando rule applied to close combat but people say it does?
MPROVING THE BENEFITS OF COVER
Some models have abilities that improve the bonus a model receives to its saving throw when it is receiving the benefit of cover — for example, ‘add 2 instead of 1 to saving throws for models in this unit while it is receiving the benefit of cover’. If a model or unit with such a rule is receiving the benefits of cover from a terrain feature with the Light Cover or Heavy Cover trait, then this rule is applied as written. If that model or unit is receiving the benefits of cover from any other terrain features with any other terrain traits, you instead add 1 to its saving throws, in addition to any other benefits of cover that are gained from those terrain features. In either case, invulnerable saves are unaffected.
Whoever told you that was incorrect. The Kommando rule is
Sneaky Gits Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit while it is receiving the benefits of cover, add an additional 2 to any armour saving throw made against that attack.
So if you are in dense terrain your opponent has -1 to hit and your kommandos get +2 to their save because they are "receiving the benefits of cover". So in this scenario Kommandos have -1 to hit and 4+ saves.
"Receiving benefit of cover" is refering to cover in general. Kommandos dont have a 3+ when not in Light Cover but they do get the +2 to the save, because they are still benefiting from "Cover" in some sense. The same applies to their melee ability, if the combat is in cover of some form it goes off.
Had their rule specifically called out LIght Cover then yeah they wouldnt get jack in dense terrain.
Beardedragon wrote: So I was made aware of the fact that our kommandos dont get a +2 to their save value when sitting in cover that dont already give a save value. They only get +1.
So in dense terrain during shooting and cc we would get a 5+ instead of a 4+ as I thought otherwise. Only light cover and heavy gives the 3+ save total it seems. Apparently theres a rule somewhere stating this.
Also i didnt think this kommando rule applied to close combat but people say it does?
MPROVING THE BENEFITS OF COVER
Some models have abilities that improve the bonus a model receives to its saving throw when it is receiving the benefit of cover — for example, ‘add 2 instead of 1 to saving throws for models in this unit while it is receiving the benefit of cover’. If a model or unit with such a rule is receiving the benefits of cover from a terrain feature with the Light Cover or Heavy Cover trait, then this rule is applied as written. If that model or unit is receiving the benefits of cover from any other terrain features with any other terrain traits, you instead add 1 to its saving throws, in addition to any other benefits of cover that are gained from those terrain features. In either case, invulnerable saves are unaffected.
Whoever told you that was incorrect. The Kommando rule is
Sneaky Gits Each time an attack is allocated to a model in this unit while it is receiving the benefits of cover, add an additional 2 to any armour saving throw made against that attack.
So if you are in dense terrain your opponent has -1 to hit and your kommandos get +2 to their save because they are "receiving the benefits of cover". So in this scenario Kommandos have -1 to hit and 4+ saves.
When they are in Light cover they get 3+ saves.
But doesnt the thing i quoted specifically state that in dense terrain our +2 rule would only be +1? Btw this is an advanced rule.
I hate how fething complicated this game is sometimes have to be with conflicting rules.
If that quote i cited dont count for us, then I dont know what it counts for.
But we DO get the extra save value in close combat as well in Light cover? Despite them only proccing against shooting attacks normally. So a +4 save in dense terrain in cc, +4 save in Light cover in close combat, and a +3 save in heavy cover in cc?
Because I feel like most i play against say i DONT receive the benefits of cover in close combat unless its heavy cover.
Also im sorry to pickles your brains here but I use 30 kommandos in my main army, and literally everytime i ask about that rule i get conflicting answers. I gotta know this because im tired of not knowing.
Vineheart01 wrote: "Receiving benefit of cover" is refering to cover in general.
Kommandos dont have a 3+ when not in Light Cover but they do get the +2 to the save, because they are still benefiting from "Cover" in some sense. The same applies to their melee ability, if the combat is in cover of some form it goes off.
Had their rule specifically called out LIght Cover then yeah they wouldnt get jack in dense terrain.
Their ability throat slittaz though is incredibly far reaching. A terrain feature includes pretty much everything, including hills. If the board has inbuilt hills deciding when you're in range of it is gonna be a pain in the butt.
Vineheart01 wrote: "Receiving benefit of cover" is refering to cover in general.
Kommandos dont have a 3+ when not in Light Cover but they do get the +2 to the save, because they are still benefiting from "Cover" in some sense. The same applies to their melee ability, if the combat is in cover of some form it goes off.
Had their rule specifically called out LIght Cover then yeah they wouldnt get jack in dense terrain.
Their ability throat slittaz though is incredibly far reaching. A terrain feature includes pretty much everything, including hills. If the board has inbuilt hills deciding when you're in range of it is gonna be a pain in the butt.
No. That is not right. Hills or tops of the containers are EXPOSED POSITION
But doesnt the thing i quoted specifically state that in dense terrain our +2 rule would only be +1?
Not sure. Because what you quoted was taking as example a unit with a +1 ability (‘add 2 instead of 1 to saving throws'= +1), so all we can really conclude is the confirmation that even in a terrain feature that doesn't improve the saving throw, the ability still kicks in.
Interesting tech that occurred to me that still works in this no subfaction world.
This detachment is legal:
Goff Patrol
Mozrog
10 grots (or 10 truck boys)
Elite: Truckboy mega nobs (if grots taken)
You still get to take a truck boy unit (as they don't get clan bonuses anyway), grots if taken don't get clan bonus, and Moz breaks clan bonus for being in this detachment but again we don't care.
Advantages over a regular squig boss:
- 4++
-attacks are 7 2 3
-his squig does 4 MWs when doing damage
-saves you 2 CP (No relic or WLT required)
Disadvantages:
-15 more points
-Can't take beast hide relic or BBK.
-this support detachment has slots that are harder to use (but I think you could still put the right stuff in there and not care that much, like say 2-3 squig buggies).
Has anyone tried this out? The regular squig boss at 170 now seems to be kind of weedy -- its a 6 2 2 for his base attacks. The offensive relic helps, but in a world of -1 damage, it seems like you'd trade off flat 3 for the headwhoppa choppa in a heart beat, and then you aren't taking the beast hide mantle.
Fists of Gork *can* target him as well as it's not clan locked, and Monster hunters is also not CLAN locked.
Also his model rules, and it's a shame he hasn't been around more given how bad Snakebites are as a clan vs Goffs.
Vineheart01 wrote: "Receiving benefit of cover" is refering to cover in general.
Kommandos dont have a 3+ when not in Light Cover but they do get the +2 to the save, because they are still benefiting from "Cover" in some sense. The same applies to their melee ability, if the combat is in cover of some form it goes off.
Had their rule specifically called out LIght Cover then yeah they wouldnt get jack in dense terrain.
Their ability throat slittaz though is incredibly far reaching. A terrain feature includes pretty much everything, including hills. If the board has inbuilt hills deciding when you're in range of it is gonna be a pain in the butt.
No. That is not right. Hills or tops of the containers are EXPOSED POSITION
But, are they terrain features? The answer is, by definition yes.
"Throat Slittas: Each time a model in this unit makes a melee attack, if it is within 1" of a terrain feature, add 1 to that attack’s wound roll."
"There are four categories of terrain features: Hills, Obstacles, Area Terrain, and Buildings."
tulun wrote: Interesting tech that occurred to me that still works in this no subfaction world.
This detachment is legal:
Goff Patrol
Mozrog
10 grots (or 10 truck boys)
Elite: Truckboy mega nobs (if grots taken)
You still get to take a truck boy unit (as they don't get clan bonuses anyway), grots if taken don't get clan bonus, and Moz breaks clan bonus for being in this detachment but again we don't care.
Advantages over a regular squig boss:
- 4++
-attacks are 7 2 3
-his squig does 4 MWs when doing damage
-saves you 2 CP (No relic or WLT required)
Disadvantages:
-15 more points
-Can't take beast hide relic or BBK.
-this support detachment has slots that are harder to use (but I think you could still put the right stuff in there and not care that much, like say 2-3 squig buggies).
Has anyone tried this out? The regular squig boss at 170 now seems to be kind of weedy -- its a 6 2 2 for his base attacks. The offensive relic helps, but in a world of -1 damage, it seems like you'd trade off flat 3 for the headwhoppa choppa in a heart beat, and then you aren't taking the beast hide mantle.
Fists of Gork *can* target him as well as it's not clan locked, and Monster hunters is also not CLAN locked.
Also his model rules, and it's a shame he hasn't been around more given how bad Snakebites are as a clan vs Goffs.
Im not a 100% sure about this, but we might be able to cheese in 2 or even 3 different clans still.
Let's say main army is DS and I take a Goff patrol on top with Zagstruk and a unit of Trukkboys.
The monofaction rules only states the keyword must be the same if its selectable.
But both have a fixed keyword, Zagstruk Goffs and Trukkboys for the boys. (Or orrible Gitz Gretchin)
That way you could also sneak in another clans WL trait, it has to be their specific one though.
Same would be possible for auxiliary detachments but those don't get Clan traits.
Cody - oh yes, that is right. Throat slittas works. The cover bonus don't.
Regarding the Mark Perry list with bunch of Killa Kans, to s of MANz i battlewagons and Ghazzy - he played them online on Art of War online tournament there
He lost the first game 78:35 againts custodes and is out. He was unable to score any points on secondaries except T1 Stranglehold. In fact, it seems he struggled to kill anything at all.
It was a nice experiment. But I take it as a proof that it' s not a good idea.
Meanwhile I played couple of games with my Speed Mob and learned few new thinks:
1. And most important - if you play, you start plaing good. If you don' t play (for a month, like in my case), first few games you play like an idiot so PRACTICE!
2. Why everybody plays the Wartrike instead of Warbos on Warbike? I' m on two warbosses right now and it is significantly better.
- spare 5p per unit
- significantly smaller unit easier to hide and avoid traffic jam in my deploy.
- one vehicle less. One point on bring it down less.
- smaller base for Speedking aura - well.. the aura is pretty weak, so who cares?
- OBSEC biker misile able to sneak between the units. Last time in Bomb Mission n.12 this was a pure gold! Just zoom in T3-T5 20” around the corner deep in to enemy deploy, plant a bomb for 4VP in the far corner far away from any objective and lock there one or two strong opponent units for turn to kill the dangerous warboss (or seems to be dangerous) and than potentialy lock another for turn or two to difuse the bomb. And next turn again. Last game it was pure 15VP on bombs for me and it wins me a game.
3. In fact, right now I offer the opponent 19 VP on Bring it down. But 13 of this are hidding Koptas and 3 Squigbuggies. The same units are TTL. All hard to kill. So in fact Bring it down is a little bit a trap on my opponents now. Because if they kill whats left - 2 wazbooms and 2 MSJs, it' s just 6 VP.
4. Flyboyz on my wazbooms seems to be the best use of specialist mob I ever have. It saves so many, so many!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Does anybody of you faced the new Eldar? I gonna play againts Biel-Tan and I have really no idea what is it. Wahapedia and Battlescribe still out of date.
Spoiler:
Asuryani - Strike Force - Grand Tournament ( 10CP - 1999PT - 1PT )
Vineheart01 wrote: "Receiving benefit of cover" is refering to cover in general.
Kommandos dont have a 3+ when not in Light Cover but they do get the +2 to the save, because they are still benefiting from "Cover" in some sense. The same applies to their melee ability, if the combat is in cover of some form it goes off.
Had their rule specifically called out LIght Cover then yeah they wouldnt get jack in dense terrain.
Their ability throat slittaz though is incredibly far reaching. A terrain feature includes pretty much everything, including hills. If the board has inbuilt hills deciding when you're in range of it is gonna be a pain in the butt.
No. That is not right. Hills or tops of the containers are EXPOSED POSITION
But, are they terrain features? The answer is, by definition yes.
"Throat Slittas: Each time a model in this unit makes a melee attack, if it is within 1" of a terrain feature, add 1 to that attack’s wound roll."
"There are four categories of terrain features: Hills, Obstacles, Area Terrain, and Buildings."
You are correct for Throat Slittas. You get the +1 to wound but not the +2 to armor. I personally like it when I get both "Sorry, my 12pt Kommandos are in Heavy cover so they get 3+ saves, also they will be wounding your T8 vehicle on 4s because WAAAAAGH!"
Im not a 100% sure about this, but we might be able to cheese in 2 or even 3 different clans still.
Let's say main army is DS and I take a Goff patrol on top with Zagstruk and a unit of Trukkboys.
The monofaction rules only states the keyword must be the same if its selectable.
But both have a fixed keyword, Zagstruk Goffs and Trukkboys for the boys. (Or orrible Gitz Gretchin)
That way you could also sneak in another clans WL trait, it has to be their specific one though.
Same would be possible for auxiliary detachments but those don't get Clan traits.
It seems like it works. I'm not sure it's incredibly useful, but if I have to choose between Mozrog with +1 to wound and a unit of truck boys or a regular squig boss right now, I think Mozrog easily wins. Also has an absolute unit of a model.
I'm not sure Goff pressure wants either necessarily though, given their exorbitant cost, but it is interesting. A lot of folks still like the squig boss.
But yeah, on further looking at the rules and chatting with folks:
1) CA2022 states that UNITS must follow the same subfaction restriction, excluding named characters, not detachments. So having a Goff + Snakebite detachment, although wonky, seems to technically work here.
2) Excluding the SC restriction earlier in the book, you cannot mix different clans in the same detachment anymore. So Moz must be in a snakebite detachment.
3) The only way around Goff + Snakebite breaking CA2022 is if your troop choice is a specialist detachment, as they lose their <CLAN> keyword for a fixed one (so 'orrible gits or truck boys).
So it's not as permissive as I thought. But it does mean there doesn't seem to be any reason why Mozrog wouldn't get his clan bonus of +1 to wound, which actually makes him even better than I originally thought. 6 attacks at 7 2 3 plus the 3 White Squig attacks, still able to be buffed by fists of gork, with innate +1 to wound will absolutely slap over a regular squig boss given this heavy -1 damage meta. And his squig does 4 MW instead of 3.
If you're taking a Squig boss, worth thinking about at least.
Edit: and given now their absolute point differential is lower (15 vs 25 points) and percentage difference is better (145 vs 170, 170 vs 185), the tradeoff is far easier to swallow. Before there wasn't much point.
Elves I can't really say. Gonna have my second game against them today. They have a lot of different tools and good but expensive units. I think we will know more in a few weeks when / if there are popular builds.
Custodes are tough and can still hurt our shooting with their banner.
They can somewhat ignore their bad primary matchup against as with a few good secondaries like psychic interrogation with an Inquisitor or stuff like grind / stranglehold.
The bikes are nasty and a nightmare to shift.
Those 4++ saves and T6 5 wounds are tough to chew through. Also they have a lot of utility strats like transhuman or tanglefood granades that can ruin our day. Also everything besides Bikes has ObSec, so they are surprisingly good in holding objectives.
Try to kill the Bikes fast and you can decide where the fight is and establish board control.
And pray his 4++ Bikes don't roll hot.
Tau have lots of Crisis in their popular builds, which are fantastic in killing our stuff. Airburst and SMS puts out a lot of indirect fire while Cyclic Ion Blasters S8 D2 3 shots and Plasma S8 D3 is o real pain for our vehicles.
They mostly have BS4+ but markerlights give them +1 to hit with commanders handing out rr 1s and Shadow Sun working like a chapter master.
They have multiple sources of wound rerolls and +1 to wound. Normally they will go for Montka instead of Kauyon, which boosts their mobility and dmg output turn 1-3 (advance and shoot + reroll 1 to wound in a certain distance)
Breachers in Devilfish have seen some play (up to 3 can disembark after moving and have a horrendous output), but they have a short range. So if you see a Devilfish with breachers inside kill it ASAP.
All units can take multiple Drones. They work a bit different, right now they are basically part of the unit with Shielddrones having 2 wounds and a 4++. That's enough to tank the first damage, so you either need to chip away as many Drones as possible turn 1 to get the damage where it needs to be.
Big shootas are great for that, as are Dakkajets. (Who are not bad against Crisis in General as all the Suits are T5.)
You'll mainly see Borkan (+4" range & a strat to make 1 gun ignore invulns & ranged attacks under S8 get -1S) or Farsight Enclave Allied world (basically Farsight but can take Ethereals for extra CP and a 5+++ buff. Trait with +1 to hit under 12" and a full reroll / hit strat)
Tau Sept has 3 redeploys, combined with stuff like infiltrating Stealth Suits or shadow sun and pulling them back after deploying can disturb your Kommandos.
A few other things:
If he has a homing beacon (probably with Stealth Suits) he can deepstrike turn 1 near them.
Kroot have a 7" Pregame move and are the Tau solution to board control. Kill them fast to prevent the Tau from scoring.
Let's of indirect fire and a move shoot move strat makes it hard to get a grip on those nasty Battlesuits.
He will probably try to cripple your army turn 1-3 and score afterwards.
Try to keep some stuff back and move block his stuff. They can shoot and do actions, so keep that in mind.
Tau really like Nachmund data but need to max it out turn 3-5.
If they have Vespids try to screen out your 2 quarters until turn 3 to make it harder.
Tau will Out damage you most of the time put score later. Anything that steals them VP is good. Sneak a squad of boys on their Objectives as often as possible. Commanders with 2 Drones can do engage, if he takes it try to kill one with a few Pistol shots or boy attacks, even if you don't kill the commander. Tag stuff as often as possible. Only one unit can fallback and shoot. He can shoot in close combat but that prevents your other units of getting shot at. He can only shoot in engagement range, so if its possible Tag only 1 suit or a Drone and he basically has no shooting if he forgets to pile in.
It's quite probable you get tabled but still win the game.
The warboss on bike vrs the wartrike for speedmob debate is a tough one.
I'm currently running two warbosses on bikes but am considering changing one to a wartrike.
The primary reason is to help with engage which I've been having success with. The wartrike can score it but the warboss can't.
The larger base would be helpful for auras as Personally I've found the speed king aura excellent especially if I keep the character alive. Your point about the ease with which to hide the bikerboss is valid here though
I played knights (4 armigers, gallant, crusader and valiant)this weekend and despite a shaky start came out with a comprehensive win. Putting the two wazbomms into reserve is the job and using them with the reroll 1s to hit within 12" is awesome. Ap-2 ranged is optimal against the majority of knights and the speed of the deffkoptas especially meant I ran away with the scoring at the end.
I took RnD for the 3rd time but messed it up by using the warbikers to fight. As a secondary I still think it's the best of a bad bunch. The fact you can't start GtGB while there is an opponent on an objective means it's easily countered.
I've found I'm maxing primaries ironically because speedmob appears to be good at scoring the new "tertiary" missions.
Im really enjoying the evil sunz and while the thought of wazbomms hitting on 3s with freebootas does appeal I can't bring myself to change.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of the newer codices I've only played custodes. Focus on the bikes early as the rest of the army is surprisingly slow (especially compared to speedmob). Based on advice from here I stayed out of combat and used firepower. However, I played against a guy running a take all comers list so he had the +1 to save rather than the -1 to hit. I can only imagine that would cause us some real issues.
You are correct for Throat Slittas. You get the +1 to wound but not the +2 to armor. I personally like it when I get both "Sorry, my 12pt Kommandos are in Heavy cover so they get 3+ saves, also they will be wounding your T8 vehicle on 4s because WAAAAAGH!"
Ah, so your fave flavour is goffs too huh? A man of Kulture I see.
I do so wish we had gotten a build your own type Kulture thing, feels like we missed out on that.
How is everyone's games going with Orks since the new codexes for other factions have come out? Going to a tournament soon and I'm doubtful buggies will hold up like they were
Dendarien wrote: Custodes and Tau are both brutal match ups. Orks had a 43% win rate this past weekend at GT and above events, with no top 10 places.
Nonsence.
1. Tau and Custodes screwed the meta so, that everybody has under 50% win rate. 43 is actually pretty good.
2. Scroll back 1 page. In last Competitive innovation, there were about 5 in top 5 incl. one first place. I posted there the lists.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Keramory wrote: How is everyone's games going with Orks since the new codexes for other factions have come out? Going to a tournament soon and I'm doubtful buggies will hold up like they were
Not top tier but definitely in the second line.
Freeboota buggy spam is dead.
Now the top builds are AoR Speed Mob (mostly ES, but also FB or BA) and Goff tempo built mostly around some Killrigs and Trukkboyz. Filtre my posts there from ladt few weeks. I do a short notes from the weekly CI on Goonhammer.
Keramory wrote: How is everyone's games going with Orks since the new codexes for other factions have come out? Going to a tournament soon and I'm doubtful buggies will hold up like they were
I haven't played against new tau yet, but based on the lists i'm seeing dominating top lists...they will get utterly obliterated by the end of turn 3. Custards...not as sure, but that salvo launcher on a relatively cheap model is designed to feth up buggies almost perfectly
Custodes can be countered well with vehicle heavy lists (particularly speedmobz) if and only if you focus down their jetbikes early. Their infantry struggles into buggies (and deffkoptas) with only s7 d2 and their high ap means nothing if you advance and get a 5++.
I haven't played into a dread heavy list only a bike and footstodes. Plane borne Supra shootas are pretty effective into the infantry.
Keramory wrote: How is everyone's games going with Orks since the new codexes for other factions have come out? Going to a tournament soon and I'm doubtful buggies will hold up like they were
I'll have to get back to you after Sat. about that.....
Sat launches our newest Crusade & is the day I finally put an Ork on the table outside a KT game. I have a 1/6chance of drawing the only Tau player as an opponent.
Speed Mob can counter Custodes as was said - kill the bikers and than run away and score around TTL, Engage, Bitz or Data. Except bikers and some dreads their shooting is weak and they are slow.
Tau are a different kind of the problem. I decided to ignore them and start solving them after some nerf that shall drop soon. I hope…
Now I play just my inner game - put half of the army into deepstrike and come T2 and the more I kill the better. That´ s it.
Once I ´ ve even won this way but the opponent was nice but quite a confused guy.
It would be awesome if Grot Mega tanks could be used in Speed Mobs. You'd think they would be fast enough with a chance to go 18 inches with an advance.. They are essentially more beefier buggies.
Had another game today against Tau, again trying how horde would work.
Tripple Blood Axe patrol:
Spoiler:
MA Warboss (Warlord, Crushing armour, ard as nails)
MA Mek (Cybork body, ive got a plan)
MA Big Mek (finkin cap, Extra cunnin)
Wyrdboy (da jump, Warpath)
3 x Trukkboys with Claw
3 x Trukk
3 x 10 Stormboys
3 x 9 Kommandos (3 x Claw)
10 Boys (big choppa)
3 x 10 Gretchin
2 x 3 Biker (2 x Big Choppa)
Tau had all the Crisis cheese you could imagine as Farsight allied world:
Spoiler:
Enforcer (DW02 burst cannon, 5+++)
Crisis Commander (relic flamer, exemplar of the Kauyon)
Ethereal (5+++ & free CP)
2 x 10 Kroot
2 x 4 Kroot Hounds
4 Stealthsuits (Homing beacon for turn 1 deepstriking Crisis + 2 Drones)
5 Airburst Crisis
5 Crisis with CIB, Plasma, Flamer (2+ chef with 4+++ upgrade)
5 Bodyguard Crisis with Airburst
3 Crisis with 2 CIB + Plasma
3 Bodyguard Crisis with CIB + Plasma
Mission was death & zeal (the circle deployment one) so i was fairly close with a lot of stuff.
5 + 3 + 3 of his Crisis were waiting in Manta strike and all Crisis units and Commanders had 2-4 Drones with a mix of mostly shield drones and a few marker drones.
Da plan was having lots of CP with the various relics / traits and utilise the good BA strats.
Also my 3 MAHQ`s were the TTL targets as i kept all other stuff under 115 points (thus only 9 Kommandos)
We both took TTL, RND and Stranglehold as secondaries.
He deployed his Stealthsuits first, so i had not many great angles for my Kommandos. I went first and called da Waaagh, killing all Kroot but 1 squad and 3 units charging his CIB / Flamer / Plasma squad. 1 mob died to overwatch, the others killed all the dones but the chef with 2+ & 4+++ tanked the rest of my attacks.
I had hold back 10 Stormboys, 10 Kommandos, 2 x 3 Bikers, 10 Boys and 30 Getchin for later turns and used them for screening and RND.
His second turn he killed 15 Stormboys, 20 Kommandos and 10 Boys.
His Flamer Commander failed to kill the Stormboys he had intervened into in my turn and with 2 turns of mellee and using Youngbloods twice i was able to finish him of in his turn because of his poor saves.
My second turn the remaining Stormboys managed to sneak behind him and kill the Ethereal. 1 Trukk ate the Overwatch of the big Crisis Team, but both Warboss and other Boys failed to make the 9" & 8" charges.
But i had 4/5 objectives, a good amount of infantry left and was pushing him back hard.
With a few sneaky advances and good charges / pile ins i was able to screen out the whole table, so his second turn none of his Crisis could enter the table. This was a huge advantage, while i would not do much more damage it helped scoring and prevent him from scoring a lot.
In his turn he killed the remaining Stormboys and small stuff near his army, but since i managed to tag only single models in his units he could not shoot a lot in close combat and with his Crisis Commander dead he lost the ability to fall back and shoot.
He killed all immidate threads but overall it was ok for me.
Turn 3 i was not able to screen out the whole table, but i used the remaining units to block everything but a 6"x12" square far back in his deployment zone.
Another Trukk died in Overwatch but the Warboss only killed one Crisis while i needed all other units to score and screen.
His turn 3 reserves arrived and i lost the Warboss, all remaining Kommandos, Stormboys and Boys and had only 30 Gretchin, the Wyrdboy and the two Meks left.
My 4th turn i managed to sneak off a last Stranglehold and pulled back my two TTL Meks while jumping 10 Gretchin onto an objective doing no damage.
Now with the table open he tried to score as much as possible and the Tau managed to score 14 primaries each turn 4+5 and finally some stranglehold and RND, but the gap was too big.
His last shooting unit managed to kill the Cybork Big Mek after auto advancing 6" with a strat who failed 4 out of 6 invuls, otherwise i would have scored 10 for TTL.
In the end i won 85:73 but had only 1 Mek, 1 Wyrdboy and 10 Gretchin left. Only things i had killed were all the Kroot, the Crisis Commander, the Ethereal and 1 Crisis model.
But hey, the plan worked!
Fazit for me: The output of a Farsight Crisis list is scary as hell and they are pretty tanky on top of that. Being Goffs would get me a bit more damage, but hosetly it doesn`t matter that much and the BA flexibility is worth it.
If you face Tau you absolutely need to know how to max out movement and especially pile ins and consolidation moves. He can only shoot in engagement range, so try to tag as few models as possible and kill as many of your models in engagement range as possible in your turn, as it will minimise his shooting, especially if he fails to remember to use all of his 6" free movement. Use his drones to tag him as much as possible, it`s possible to tag them without any of his models being able to shoot at all.
The Tau Commanders hand out different buffs. Kill those that work against you (Crisis Commander = fall back & shoot, Enforcer hands out ObSec, Coldstar gives an 8" advance).
Try to moveblock his RND units, i was able to prevent RND turns 2 + 3. Look out as the Ethereal has an shoot & action ability wich can make for sneaky RND plays combined with 8" (Coldstar) or 6" (strat) auto advance and still shooting while Mont`Ka (turn 1-3) being also a thing to look out for when screening and when the Tau is trying to set up later RND actions.
You might see deepstriking Vespids for that as well, and you need to prevent any scoring you can, so ty to keep that screen up. Remember RND needs to be 6" away from other quarters, so it`s not that hard to block it at least when you have enough stuff left.
Mont`Ka buffs only work on the nearest eligable unit, thats also a good way to deny extra damage if you get small units in the way or use trukks for that.
If you have big guns, shoot Big Shootas first. As soon as he decides to tank it with the tanky Crisis in each unit (he can have 1/3 models with a 2+ and 1 dude in the army with a once-per-game 4+++ upgrade), shoot big guns next, even if he has not lost ony wounds, he still must allocate the next wounds on that model.
Also remember Ramming Speed and Da crushing armour + other MW sources. All of them are gold.
I`m actually considering Dakkajes as a unit to remove Drones, even the humble Squigbuggy might be an option the chip them off.
But prepare for a lot of damage to bounce off, so if you can`t kill him rather use your stuff to kill his Kroot units. Those are the ones that help him score and as soon as those are dead the juice targets need to commit to that dirty work.
Stealth suits can have an upgrade that allows him to deep strike turn 1 and they can infiltrate. So if you deploy first, instantly use 1 Mob of Kommandos to screen out the worst shooting angle you can imagine. And if you have the chance to take them out turn 1, do it. Be aware of the -1 to hit in shooting and close combat though. Besides that they have solid overwatch and can take shield drones as well.
In the regular lists Tau have 1 option to fall back & shoot and 1 option for shoot and do actions, so try to use that against him. Both are Command Phase abilities with Ethereal 6" and Commander 9" range, so check what units might profit and which won`t.
Tau probably will outshoot you, which makes them really scary in the meta right now, but they are still bad at scoring. They can easily win by shooting all your stuff turn 1-3, but need to score turn 4-5. Keep that in mind, go for 4 VP instead of a unsafe charge if you`re unsure and you will change the game in your favor.
Your list needs to have a solid gameplan for all missions. Some prevent scouting, some have 5 or 6 objectives, so look at all of them and think whats the most i can score without killing stuff. Especially against Tau you won`t get more than 5-10 for any kill secondary, unless they really spam infantry or you feel confident you can kill lots of Crisis. Squads of 3 will give away 2 VP and squads of 5 3 VP, but those big squads will probably be TTL targets and often stay out of line of sight, stay back and occasionally get the 5+++ prayer by the Ethereal if they might get in danger. With all the Drones and the Kroot i would have barely get over 50 wounds for just 6 VP, all my other secondaries had at least 5 VP (bad luck TTL) and the 8 for RND.
Today it went well, but tbh even if i would`t have lost the Mek it would still only have been about 15 VP difference and besides 2 failed charges it went nearly perfect today.
He made a few little mistakes (falling back and staying in melee with the Commander to flame away Stormboys was a bit risky and he should have just deployed the second squad of 5 Crisis with Airburst) but i did so as well, so there really isn`t much room for much error. Also it is really tight on a clock, the game took about 3-3,5h i guess.
I guess the horde list might work, especially if the Tau player does not know very well what to do against that, but i think i will still switch for Speedmob for the next tournament.
Hopefully i can get a few games in against Custodes, Crusher Stampede and Eldar. Might change my mind if that goes well.
Really helpful breakdown grotrebel. May I ask what stops the tau player just piling in more crisis suits in the fight phase to ensure the max number of guys get to shoot in his next shooting phase?
I really like the way you screened out T2. Im running 25 bikes (which can take up a huge amount of real estate and with drive by dakka that could be worth trying against the large crisis suit bombs.
I'm definitely not changing my Alphork list because it doesn't mesh, but what is everyone's opinion on the battlewagons now? I still think they are too heavily priced for what little they do, especially in a game where Tau just got released, but what do you guys think?
SemperMortis wrote: I'm definitely not changing my Alphork list because it doesn't mesh, but what is everyone's opinion on the battlewagons now? I still think they are too heavily priced for what little they do, especially in a game where Tau just got released, but what do you guys think?
They’ve been great in my games so far. They do fine in CC with the rolla and are much harder to kill than trukks. Against tau they give you a bunker that doesn’t instantly die to indirect. I’m also moving away from trukk boy MANz to Goff MANz since I play against a lot of custodes. Trukk boy MANz just bounce off custodes.
SemperMortis wrote: I'm definitely not changing my Alphork list because it doesn't mesh, but what is everyone's opinion on the battlewagons now? I still think they are too heavily priced for what little they do, especially in a game where Tau just got released, but what do you guys think?
They’ve been great in my games so far. They do fine in CC with the rolla and are much harder to kill than trukks. Against tau they give you a bunker that doesn’t instantly die to indirect. I’m also moving away from trukk boy MANz to Goff MANz since I play against a lot of custodes. Trukk boy MANz just bounce off custodes.
I think 1 or 2 are pretty ok as well. I'm a fan of meganobz and battlewagons, so I might overvalue them a bit but so far I never felt like I was handicapping myself when I bring those (pretty much everytime since late 8th ). I'm curious about other players' responses though, since I haven't had the chance to face the new tau so far.
SemperMortis wrote: I'm definitely not changing my Alphork list because it doesn't mesh, but what is everyone's opinion on the battlewagons now? I still think they are too heavily priced for what little they do, especially in a game where Tau just got released, but what do you guys think?
They’ve been great in my games so far. They do fine in CC with the rolla and are much harder to kill than trukks. Against tau they give you a bunker that doesn’t instantly die to indirect. I’m also moving away from trukk boy MANz to Goff MANz since I play against a lot of custodes. Trukk boy MANz just bounce off custodes.
I think 1 or 2 are pretty ok as well. I'm a fan of meganobz and battlewagons, so I might overvalue them a bit but so far I never felt like I was handicapping myself when I bring those (pretty much everytime since late 8th ). I'm curious about other players' responses though, since I haven't had the chance to face the new tau so far.
For what it is worth Mark Perry went 5-1 at the Cherokee Open here with 18 MANz, 3 Kanz, and 2 wagons beating multiple custodes and a triple stormsurge tau list.
CaptainO wrote: Really helpful breakdown grotrebel. May I ask what stops the tau player just piling in more crisis suits in the fight phase to ensure the max number of guys get to shoot in his next shooting phase?
I really like the way you screened out T2. Im running 25 bikes (which can take up a huge amount of real estate and with drive by dakka that could be worth trying against the large crisis suit bombs.
Well there is actually a lot you can do to prevent him from piling in:
Utilize terrain. They have huge bases so if you stay away 1" from ruins they can`t move over but aren`t in engagement range as well.
Use other units. He needs to pile towards the nearest unit. Either you can sacrifive a unit you don`t care about or move something like a trukk there that won`t care about Airbursts or move Boys towards Plasma Crisis as those won`t kill many Boys.
Also he needs to stay in coherency, which limits his .piles if you get close on multiple angles.
If you have 1 spot with most of the drones it`s good to stay there, as they can block the Crisis`movement.
Broadsides will kill 1 few Boys and so will Crisis if you are in luck. So you can kill those that give him the most models in Engagement range, as he can`t decide not to fight. So he either isn`t in engagement range at all or might kill just enough to help you get as few models as possible in engagement range.
On top of that, unfamiliar Tau players will most likely use the full 2 x 3", so that might work in your favor as well. My regular Tau opponent is quite skilled tho, so i can`t get much out those sneaky moves. Sometimes it must just be enough to prevent 2-3 models from shooting. It`s important to fokus the right Crisis units as well. Infantry heavy lists should fokus the Airburst squads while Speedmob needs to take out the Cyclic / Plasma dudes first.
I actually trained the pile in stuff with charges & piles against empty bases. Remember the charge move has no directional restrictions, so sometimes it`s better to set up a good position and don`t fokus on maximum damage.
So, today i had my 6th or 7th game against the new Tau, again against the 21 Crisis list with Stealth Suits, 2 Commanders, Ethereal and Kroot.
Today i went for Speed Mob:
I tellyported the 3 Scrapjets and put the 2 Wazboms and 3 Dragstas in strategic reserve. He had 5 + 3 + 3 Crisis in Manta strike as last game.
My secondaries were Grind them down, Assassinate and Engage, he took Bring it down, TTL and the Tau one with actions in the middle of the 4 board edges.
I decided to skip the Koptas as they are super CP heavy, die fast, don`t have ObSec as the Bikes and give away so many easy Bring it Down points.
Mission was the one were you get to move 2 objectives and choose a primary one.
I went first and my Bikes managed a sneaky charge on his Stealth Suits supported my Squigbuggy firesupport. I played the rest very passively, so i only lost 3 Bikes as he had deployed cagey as well and there were no good shooting angles.
Orks turn 2 the Waaagh was called and i tellyported in my Scrapjets supported by 1 Wazbom. Together with the suicidal ObSec Warbikes i managed to kill a few Drones and wipe the large Cyclic / Plasma squad but nothing else. I was able to screen out my half of the table but because of that has onll limited shooting.
The Tau dropped in 2 x 3 Crisis for both reroll strats and killed the Wazbom, 3 more Bikes, 1 Boosta Blasta and chipped of a few wounds of the Scrapjets and Squigbuggies without killing them. Quite good actually!
My 3rd turn i was able to screen just enough to prevent his last squad to drop in behind me. The 2nd Wazbom and the Dragstas came in and together with 1 KBB, the Scrapjets and a few shots from the Bikes and the Squigbuggies i was able to kill 2/5 Airburst Crisis and killed one of the 2 3-man-crisis Teams. So far i have been scoring good on primaries because i was able to keep my primary one safe and had 2-3 of the 5 objectives turn 2-3.
My Dragstas totally failed my and only killed 1 Crisis total, but my KBB was able to make a 9" charge on his Ethereal and shoot / ram / saw him to death. Take that, greater good!
The Tau counter was brutal as well, killing the second Wazbom, 3 Dragstas, the last 3 Bikes and 2 Scrapjets.
I knew the game was changing in his favor, so i focused on 1 Commander for Assassinate but he survived with his -1 dmg and the 5+++. Also going for scoring engage and minimising his primary score. The Squigbuggies were closing in for maximum Dakka and all my stuff was getting of a few last shots from the objectives.
Tau turn finished off the last KBB and Scrapjet, but he had not much left: 5 + 2 Crisis, 1 Commander and a few Kroot, i had left the Trike, 3 Squigbuggies and the Snazzwagon.
We were playing on clock, so i missed to get engage a last time by 0,5" as i only had sub 5mins left and needed to finish my shooting / charging for Assassinate.
All my remaining dakka went into his two commanders turn 5 and i managed to kill one, he countered with killing 2 Squigbuggies, scoring 12 + 3 primaries turn 4 & 5 and doing 2 / 4 of the Tau actions.
Final score was 75:74 for me, i think that was my closest game in 9th edition so far! Would have made 77 if i thought about that last engage, but in the end it was enough.
Well, as i feared, Speed Mob is stell the better option against Tau. It can kill enough stuff to compensate bad scoring. Also the Airburst don`t do much against Speed Mob, and with reserves you have enough flexibility to get where you need to be and prevent you stuff from getting killed without doing damage before.
Squigbuggies and Scrapjets are fantastic to chip of Drones. As soon as he takes any wound on a Crisis, the Big Guns shoot so he needs to allocate Tellyport Blasta and the like on the same model.
I didn`t miss the Koptas very much. I love them but i think i`d only play them with ES but i prefer BA.
Actually i rate Blood Axes as our best clan right now considering the meta and the new mission pack.
As long as Tau and Custodes stay the way they are Alphork is dead for me. It works in a semi competitive environment but i don`t see it going anywhere against 20+ Crisis with all that Airburst.
Only other build i can imagine is going for a mixed list with Freebooters Dakka supported by a bit of stuff like Stormboys and Kommandos to have a bit of secondary flexibility.
Thats at least an almost safe 8 VP for RND and help with better Engage and other stuff.
@Battlewagon: Boomer might be ok against Tau with T8 i guess? You need to screen against Manta strike Crisis anyway and it will at least have a little bit of dakka.
I was actually considering it again for mone detachment Speed Mob as i have allready 6 FA slots and loved the amount of CP i had.
If only GW could give the FW stuff a proper upgrade. Nob Bikers, Kannonwagon or Grot tanks could add a lot to Speed Mob and open the field for more diverse lists.
gungo wrote: I’ll be surprised if attack out da sun gets errata now that critical mass book is on last chance to buy… lol… the book won’t even be sold anymore.
The exact moment AODS gets errata will be the moment I start playing it RAW.
SemperMortis wrote: I'm definitely not changing my Alphork list because it doesn't mesh, but what is everyone's opinion on the battlewagons now? I still think they are too heavily priced for what little they do, especially in a game where Tau just got released, but what do you guys think?
In my experience they are a solid choice with their current price tag, but they are by no means a competitive unit. There is just too much out there that hard-counters them, so you cannot reasonable expect to place well in a tournament with them unless you get lucky.
I guess it's difficult to put points on a vehicle that might either be fairly durable or paper thin depending on which guns your opponent has.
CaptainO wrote: Really helpful breakdown grotrebel. May I ask what stops the tau player just piling in more crisis suits in the fight phase to ensure the max number of guys get to shoot in his next shooting phase?
I really like the way you screened out T2. Im running 25 bikes (which can take up a huge amount of real estate and with drive by dakka that could be worth trying against the large crisis suit bombs.
Well there is actually a lot you can do to prevent him from piling in:
Utilize terrain. They have huge bases so if you stay away 1" from ruins they can`t move over but aren`t in engagement range as well.
Use other units. He needs to pile towards the nearest unit. Either you can sacrifive a unit you don`t care about or move something like a trukk there that won`t care about Airbursts or move Boys towards Plasma Crisis as those won`t kill many Boys.
Also he needs to stay in coherency, which limits his .piles if you get close on multiple angles.
If you have 1 spot with most of the drones it`s good to stay there, as they can block the Crisis`movement.
Broadsides will kill 1 few Boys and so will Crisis if you are in luck. So you can kill those that give him the most models in Engagement range, as he can`t decide not to fight. So he either isn`t in engagement range at all or might kill just enough to help you get as few models as possible in engagement range.
On top of that, unfamiliar Tau players will most likely use the full 2 x 3", so that might work in your favor as well. My regular Tau opponent is quite skilled tho, so i can`t get much out those sneaky moves. Sometimes it must just be enough to prevent 2-3 models from shooting. It`s important to fokus the right Crisis units as well. Infantry heavy lists should fokus the Airburst squads while Speedmob needs to take out the Cyclic / Plasma dudes first.
I actually trained the pile in stuff with charges & piles against empty bases. Remember the charge move has no directional restrictions, so sometimes it`s better to set up a good position and don`t fokus on maximum damage.
So, today i had my 6th or 7th game against the new Tau, again against the 21 Crisis list with Stealth Suits, 2 Commanders, Ethereal and Kroot.
Today i went for Speed Mob:
I tellyported the 3 Scrapjets and put the 2 Wazboms and 3 Dragstas in strategic reserve. He had 5 + 3 + 3 Crisis in Manta strike as last game.
My secondaries were Grind them down, Assassinate and Engage, he took Bring it down, TTL and the Tau one with actions in the middle of the 4 board edges.
I decided to skip the Koptas as they are super CP heavy, die fast, don`t have ObSec as the Bikes and give away so many easy Bring it Down points.
Mission was the one were you get to move 2 objectives and choose a primary one.
I went first and my Bikes managed a sneaky charge on his Stealth Suits supported my Squigbuggy firesupport. I played the rest very passively, so i only lost 3 Bikes as he had deployed cagey as well and there were no good shooting angles.
Orks turn 2 the Waaagh was called and i tellyported in my Scrapjets supported by 1 Wazbom. Together with the suicidal ObSec Warbikes i managed to kill a few Drones and wipe the large Cyclic / Plasma squad but nothing else. I was able to screen out my half of the table but because of that has onll limited shooting.
The Tau dropped in 2 x 3 Crisis for both reroll strats and killed the Wazbom, 3 more Bikes, 1 Boosta Blasta and chipped of a few wounds of the Scrapjets and Squigbuggies without killing them. Quite good actually!
My 3rd turn i was able to screen just enough to prevent his last squad to drop in behind me. The 2nd Wazbom and the Dragstas came in and together with 1 KBB, the Scrapjets and a few shots from the Bikes and the Squigbuggies i was able to kill 2/5 Airburst Crisis and killed one of the 2 3-man-crisis Teams. So far i have been scoring good on primaries because i was able to keep my primary one safe and had 2-3 of the 5 objectives turn 2-3.
My Dragstas totally failed my and only killed 1 Crisis total, but my KBB was able to make a 9" charge on his Ethereal and shoot / ram / saw him to death. Take that, greater good!
The Tau counter was brutal as well, killing the second Wazbom, 3 Dragstas, the last 3 Bikes and 2 Scrapjets.
I knew the game was changing in his favor, so i focused on 1 Commander for Assassinate but he survived with his -1 dmg and the 5+++. Also going for scoring engage and minimising his primary score. The Squigbuggies were closing in for maximum Dakka and all my stuff was getting of a few last shots from the objectives.
Tau turn finished off the last KBB and Scrapjet, but he had not much left: 5 + 2 Crisis, 1 Commander and a few Kroot, i had left the Trike, 3 Squigbuggies and the Snazzwagon.
We were playing on clock, so i missed to get engage a last time by 0,5" as i only had sub 5mins left and needed to finish my shooting / charging for Assassinate.
All my remaining dakka went into his two commanders turn 5 and i managed to kill one, he countered with killing 2 Squigbuggies, scoring 12 + 3 primaries turn 4 & 5 and doing 2 / 4 of the Tau actions.
Final score was 75:74 for me, i think that was my closest game in 9th edition so far! Would have made 77 if i thought about that last engage, but in the end it was enough.
Well, as i feared, Speed Mob is stell the better option against Tau. It can kill enough stuff to compensate bad scoring. Also the Airburst don`t do much against Speed Mob, and with reserves you have enough flexibility to get where you need to be and prevent you stuff from getting killed without doing damage before.
Squigbuggies and Scrapjets are fantastic to chip of Drones. As soon as he takes any wound on a Crisis, the Big Guns shoot so he needs to allocate Tellyport Blasta and the like on the same model.
I didn`t miss the Koptas very much. I love them but i think i`d only play them with ES but i prefer BA.
Actually i rate Blood Axes as our best clan right now considering the meta and the new mission pack.
As long as Tau and Custodes stay the way they are Alphork is dead for me. It works in a semi competitive environment but i don`t see it going anywhere against 20+ Crisis with all that Airburst.
Only other build i can imagine is going for a mixed list with Freebooters Dakka supported by a bit of stuff like Stormboys and Kommandos to have a bit of secondary flexibility.
Thats at least an almost safe 8 VP for RND and help with better Engage and other stuff.
@Battlewagon: Boomer might be ok against Tau with T8 i guess? You need to screen against Manta strike Crisis anyway and it will at least have a little bit of dakka.
I was actually considering it again for mone detachment Speed Mob as i have allready 6 FA slots and loved the amount of CP i had.
If only GW could give the FW stuff a proper upgrade. Nob Bikers, Kannonwagon or Grot tanks could add a lot to Speed Mob and open the field for more diverse lists.
why blood axe speed mob?
i ask because when i look at blood axe most of the blood axe stratagems don't work on speed mob units.
only thing that makes me think maybe is cp gain from certain relics and warlord traits
I'd guess Blood Axes because of the CP and the redeploy from the WT.
Deciding after deployment to reposition an exposed unit or chuck the Wazbomms or a big blob of bikes into reserves for free is pretty strong, and the extra CP is great for all Speedmob strats.
Afrodactyl wrote: I'd guess Blood Axes because of the CP and the redeploy from the WT.
Deciding after deployment to reposition an exposed unit or chuck the Wazbomms or a big blob of bikes into reserves for free is pretty strong, and the extra CP is great for all Speedmob strats.
maybe but the ork version is weaker than other codex versions (because orks can't have nice things) as the redeployment happens before deciding who goes first.
if you put a unit into reserve and go first all you do is miss a round of shooting weakening your first turn advantage and strengthening your opponent as he will take less damage.
i find that ability to be a bit of a gamble unless used on a unit you know will do nothing in the first turn, like a unit of slow moving melee meganobs or something.
i just think its utility is a bit low for speed mobs, the wazbomb probably needs to be protected i guess
There are so many armies that will oneshot one or even both Wazboms, that i basically never field them, unless i face slow melee armies or can keep them out of range of enemy dakka.
Since they are Aircraft it`s almost impossible to hide them and you don`t want to loose 500 points just for going second.
The WL trait saves 3+ CP for reserves and i can still use it to redeploy stuff or put something else in reserve as well.
Also it does not count towards 50% reserve limit, so you could go for zero deploy with Speed Mob if you want to.
(Or at least hold back anything expensive besides the Squigbuggies who can hide together with Trike and some Bikes.)
The relic and other WL traits are just icing on the cake, as they provide a few extra CP or make strats cheaper.
Extra kunning is great, as you will use one strategic ploy strat almost every turn so thats good value.
Tactical Awareness is just awesome, as Speedmob has already limited angles to do actions and it provides us with a good tool for early actions without loosing damage.
But essentially it`s simply Blood Axes because you end up with 5+ more CP in the end and Speed Mob is quite CP heavy.
SemperMortis wrote: I'm definitely not changing my Alphork list because it doesn't mesh, but what is everyone's opinion on the battlewagons now? I still think they are too heavily priced for what little they do, especially in a game where Tau just got released, but what do you guys think?
In my experience they are a solid choice with their current price tag, but they are by no means a competitive unit. There is just too much out there that hard-counters them, so you cannot reasonable expect to place well in a tournament with them unless you get lucky.
I guess it's difficult to put points on a vehicle that might either be fairly durable or paper thin depending on which guns your opponent has.
That analysis is exactly how I feel Jid. I was just surprised that we had an Ork player finish at Cherokee reasonably well with a couple wagons in it. It didn't make sense to me, especially in a meta where Tau just got buffed to an extreme level.
Depending on his opponents, I can totally see someone finishing well with them. If you manage to dodge the lists with high damage shots or at least go first against them you can totally place well with such a list. A single bad matchup can completely kick you out of the competition though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thanks to Grotrebel for doing some housekeeping on the first post, I currently don't have the time to give the first post proper attention.
He updated the rules parts, the tier list has not been updated.
Ok guys, I am having a relatively tough time here on choosing secondaries for Alphork strike list. Behind enemy lines is a no-brainer, but after that i'm just not sure. I just had a practice game and won while only dropping 6pts but it was a bad matchup and against tougher opponents I think I would run into a lot of problems getting that. I also got lucky with a really good mission secondary that tied into my armies theme incredibly well.
So please, lets here some suggestions. Keep in mind, I am running Alphork strike list whose sole purpose is to push the enemy into their deployment zone and keep them bottled up the whole game.
SemperMortis wrote: Ok guys, I am having a relatively tough time here on choosing secondaries for Alphork strike list. Behind enemy lines is a no-brainer, but after that i'm just not sure. I just had a practice game and won while only dropping 6pts but it was a bad matchup and against tougher opponents I think I would run into a lot of problems getting that. I also got lucky with a really good mission secondary that tied into my armies theme incredibly well.
So please, lets here some suggestions. Keep in mind, I am running Alphork strike list whose sole purpose is to push the enemy into their deployment zone and keep them bottled up the whole game.
Well
1. Bitz/Data seems to be fine with small squads of stormobyz?
2. Behind is tough. What about Engage? This should be pretty fine too.
3. Mighty and problematic third secondary. Hmmm…
- No prisoners becames with the new rules pretty OK. Check it. I used it againts custodes and despite the fact, I killed not so many of them, 9VP was in my pocket.
- I doubt you will have good units for TTL and you will have too many units for grind them down, right?
- I ignore the killy secondaries, because you should be ready to the opponents do not offer you assasinate, bring it down, etc.
- heureka! You can take a warp ritual!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, yesterday I took my SpeedMob to local tournament. 2 victories, one triple jetbike custodes with dreadnoughts in the “final”. Which was also fine, you can play a serious competitive game a drink a beer during the and know it doesnt matter….
First guy Black Templars - he was wiped out T4 but managed to score pretty well before on his secondaries. It was hard to stop him from scoring his faction specific (be in the midle, pass morale and something else).
Second battle - new Eldars Biel Tan - well it was fine. Good, different but not broken. A lot of buffs and magic dice tricks (hot 5 dice to hit, creates 10 wound rolls… ) etc and his infantry shooting was actualy not bad at all. But it' s soft. Dakkaguns clear them like a hell.
What should be a dangerous eldar will be the soup with Harlequins. Really a lot of move, advance and charge and moves after shooting and spared “guaranteed” rolls. That will be crazy. And lot of small hard dangerous in CC units flying around the table.
Lesson learned - Speedking aura is a piece of … I pimp the second warboss to be killy one too next time. In games exactly like this the second warboss for hunting enemy characters is what is super usefull.
Oh ses and his indirect fire s S7 D2 so after long time some important units that suffers by Ramshackle. His two tanks was able to kill one Kopta model per turn. Good to ignore it at all.
Last Custodes - what to say… there was 3 tournaments in Prague in last week and top 5 is always something like custodes-tau-tau-custodes-custodes-tau.
Some of these guys seems to be pretty bored their games ends after an hour.
List:
And I play TTL (koptas and RSB), Engage and mostly Bitz or killy as the third one.
Eldar.. i cant wait to try and face them. i havent really understood any of their rules since their change but i also havent really done any reading up on it either.
Hey guys, what do you think about these changes for our page 1 post?
Most of the changes come from FAQ`d stuff and otherwise the results of Jids survey a few weeks back and the stuff ork players kept using the last weeks in this thread and in tournaments as well. the survey results and the succesfull GT lists seem to be mostly identical, with a few outliners and 1,2 things to consider as the poll was pre-point nerf / 2022 mission pack.
In cases i changed the tier level from its original i put a +/- x in behind it to show if it went up or down and changed the tier colour to the new tier colour.
Specialist Mobs and Kustom Jobs didn`t really need an update, they were still fairly accurate. Only thing that got changed is a few things that were not up to date rules / FAQ wise.
(Stuff like if Deffdreads could use the Extra custom weapon custom job, etc.)
I put a few explanations in here and there and tried to consider all factors equally, so don`t crump me too hard but please give feedback if you think a rated some stuff off the charts.
So lets get started with Clans:
Spoiler:
Clans: (Last update: 2022-03-14)
Goffs Kulture: No Muckin' About Every roll of six in combat add one additional HIT (was attack in 8th) and +1S. Essentially everyone is skarboyz. This is an incredibly powerful melee buff, so if your are running multiple melee units (boyz!) this is the best trait to give them.
Warlord trait: Proper Killy (+1) Proper Killy is worse than almost every other trait. So there is no reason to give a warlord Proper Killy by choice, but Thrakka is locked into it. You can push the Beastboss to AP 3 though, which might be of use in edge cases. (Read: Stormshields & AP reducing traits)
Stratagem: Unbridled Carnage (+1) (2 CP) The goff trait triggers on fives instead of sixes, characters and core only. It might make a difference when you really have to make sure that you kill something, but at 2CP it's too expensive to use regularly.
Relic: Da Iron Gob After fighting, the model gets to headbut someone for d3 mortal wounds. I really don't see a character that I want to put this on, there are so many better relics out available.
Thoughts: As Goff Alphork lists with multiple characters have become a quite popular thing, Proper killy might be a valid choice if you take multiple traits. There are better traits out there like BBK, but as there are only 3 traits that push your damage it might be worth it.
Bad Moonz Kulture: Armed To Da Teef (-1) The extra range is fairly significant on most weapons as it makes many weapons jump from 24" to 30", and the extra AP is great for most non-kustom weapons.
Warlord Trait: Da Best Armor Teef Can Buy Essentially, this is a worse version of the generic "Da Krushin Armor", but without the MA requirement. Especially the wartrike can make good use of this, but it also pairs well with any killa klaw or squiggosaur boss.
Stratagem: Showin' Off (1 CP) At first glance this just seems to be the old DDD, but sixes generate extra HITS, just like the goff trait. It only works for core units and characters, so the only good targets are meks with ded shiney shoota and maybe lootas.
Relic: Gobshot Blunderbuss Turns a kustom shoota into a dual skorcha. Since it's a heavy weapon it gets 6" extra range and is actually 18", so it's not bad. It's main issue is that it can only taken by a very limited number of models and most of them want other relics.
Thoughts: The extra range mostly does not matter with the small maps and the extra AP only triggers on 6s. I love my BM, but personally i think it`s our worst trait by far and would rate it even yellow or red.
Evil Sunz Kultur: Red Ones Go Fasta The assault buff is gone and the dakka weapon type and many weapons moving from assault to heavy messed up the trait badly, especially since many models have a mix of types. The extra movement by itself doesn't really help any army.
Warlord trait: Fasta Than Yooz (+3) One CORE unit within 6" can fall back and charge or advance and charge. Great for Speed Mob Warbikes that don`t have access to the regular Waaagh.
Stratagem: Drive-by Dakka (+2)(1 CP) Enables an Evil Sunz SPEED FREEKS unit to move again at the end of the shooting phase. Allows units like buggies or koptas to get out of dangerous situations and hopefully behind obscuring terrain. Fantastic to keep your TTL Deffkoptas alive.
Relic: Rezmekka's redder paint Probably one of the best relics in the codex, not only does it make everyone in combat with the wearer fight last, but it can be taken by vehicles and adds movement.
Thoughts: ES have seen a lot of play in Speedmob, so i think it`s fair to rate the WL trait and strat far better, as it`s key to how and why ES Speed Mob works.
Snakebites Kultur: Da Old Ways Don't listen to your space marines friends, it's nowhere even close to transhuman. The great part of this culture is a very juicy +1 to wound for all squigs - so when you have squigosaurs, squig hogs and smasha squigs. For every other unit the culture is essentially worthless. Note that the rigs are not squigs.
Warlord trait: Surly as a Squiggoth When you die, you have 50% chance to bounce back up with d3 wounds remaining. For almost every character, just taking defensive relic like the super-cybork is better. Mozrog is locked into this.
Stratagem: Mystic Chanting(1 CP) Deny the witch for 1CP. If you opponent has psykers you can spend a CP to deny a power you really don't want to be happening. Great backup to deny psychic actions as well.
Relic: Bogrog's Buzzbomb Single use grenade that hits on a 2+ and does 3d6 S5 AP-1 hits, with +1 to wound if you put it on a squig. Blast makes it rather powerful against hordes, not that awesome against elite armies.
Deathskullz Kultur: Lucky Gitz 5+++ against MW, all infantry gains objective secured, and you may reroll 1 dice per unit per phase to hit OR wound. Provides excellent benefits for pretty much every ork unit. A lot less powerful than before, but still a great jack-of-all-traits kultur.
Warlord trait: Opportunist Allows your warlord to snipe characters and might gain you a CP if you destroy a vehicle, which combos nicely with Wreckaz. While it did not improve greatly from the last codex, especially a MA big mek with the ded shiney shoota and the wartrike are now much better candidates for this trait.
Stratagem: Wreckaz (2 CP) Adds +1 to wound when attacking vehicles. Since it is limited to CORE and CHARACTERs, there are preciously few units that can benefit from it, so it is probably best used when you want to finish something off in combat.
Relic: The Fixer Upperz Now mek and big mek only, so no more shenanigans. It does mortal wounds to nearby vehicles when repairs one of your own vehicles, which just too many stars that need to align.
Blood Axes Kultur: Taktiks (+1) While orks rarely find themselves outside of 18", the gives vehicles a 3+ save and walkers a 2+ save during the first turn. Falling back and charging or shooting is only useful on a few units like koptas, squigbuggies or bonebreakers as most ork units either don't survive two rounds of combat, the enemy wants to get out of combat ASAP or the orks annihilate whatever they have charge anyways, leaving nothing to fall back from.
Warlord Trait: I've got a Plan, Ladz Allows you to pick up to 3 units and either re-deploy them or put them in reserves for free. There is no limit on this, so feel free to outflank two stompas and a gargantuan squiggoth for free. Good to hide expensive Wazboms as they don`t get to hide behind obscuring terrain.
Stratagem: Dead Sneaky(1 CP) If an infantry unit is within 3" of a table edge it can be put into strategic reserves. This can be use to save units from destruction, get outmaneuvered units back in the fight or to secure table quaters/perform actions for secondaries.
Relic: Morgarg's finkin cap Gain a CP if your warlord is alive. You can't ever have enough CP and this a fairly reliable way to gain one or two.
Thoughts: BA Kulture has seen a bit more use recently as it offers a bit more flexibility & utility and helps your Squigbuggies and Koptas keep shooting their Blast weapons if they get tagged. The BA supplement helped as well with adding even more strats, allthough with the exception of Tactical Awareness they mostly help armies outside of Speed Mob. Also added the part about Wazboms as they seem to be part of a lot of kunning BA warlords out there.
Freebootas Kultur: Competitive Streak Each time a freeboota unit destroys an enemy unit, all other freebootas add 1 to hit for the phase. The only trait that allows Gretchin units to (indirectly) benefit by causing other non-gretchin freeboota units to gain the +1 to hit. Be aware that some units like buggies have inherrent +1 to hit and thus don't benefit from the culture. (They get to ignore dense cover though)
Warlord Trait: Killa Reputation -1 to leadership and attrition tests for enemies +1 1d for your own models. Especially 9th edition codices will be hurt by this, but with many codices still ignoring morale and many great warlord traits available, it's probably more of a trait to pick up for one of your support characters during cursade.
Stratagem: Get Da Loot (1 CP) If you ever find yourself in a situation where you outnumber your opponnet, just switch on your objective secured and go for a 8 VP swing. Insanely powerful if you can make it happen. INFANTRY only.
Relic: Badskull Banna Enemies within 6" lose objective secured. Powerful relic that can even go on vehicles. Combined with a Speed Mob Warboss on Bike that gains ObSec this opens a good possibillity to steal objectives.
Now for the Big junk, unit analysis. Here quite a few units have changed, as before i put (+/- x) behind it if anything changed and put the relevant units in the new tier list.
S-Tier:
Spoiler:
Beastboss on Squigosaur The biggest, meanest ork in town riding a T-Rex. The ability to take relics and traits that make him extremely tanky and the jaws of the squig make him good against pretty much anything. Got a big +30 points price increase with the last chapter approved though and the large base combined with the CAVALRY keyword can make it tricky to get the best out of him on terrain heavy boards.
Mozrog Skragbad (+1) With the +30 points bump on the regular Beastboss on Squigosaurus Mozrog is now just 5/10 points more expensive. His dmg 3 melee profile became better now that a lot of units have -1 dmg. He will save you CP over a regular Squigboss and sports a 4++. Locked into Snakebites you won`t get a clan trait for him normally now that monofaction is a thing. (But there seems to be a loophole to put him in a snakebites detachment with a specialists troop unit so he gets to use his trait and circumvent the new rules for monofactions.)
Deffkilla Wartrike (+1) A solid profile and the ability to call a Speed Waaagh!, which is very valuable in vehicle-centric and especially Speed Mob lists. It can also benefit from a number of clan specific relics and warlord traits. With the vehicle keyword it can still help with the "Engage on all fronts" secondary and to pop cloud of smokes.
Deffkopta (+1) Many wounds, FLY, at least six attacks and dual rokkits each make them quite powerful for any flanking job. There isn't much reason to pay points to side-grade two rokkits into a KMB and bomb. Got a few fantastic strategems with Speed Mob and tournament lists have been running up to 15 of these. They make good TTL targets now and can dish out a solid amount of mortal wounds. Only minor downside is they give up quite a few Bring it Down points and they can`t fire their rokkits in close combat.
Big Mek in Mega Armour With BS4+ and the ded shiney shoota, you have a rather decent shooty HQ at your hands which can either carry a KFF to burn or the vastly improved tellyporta blasta to get up close and personal. Our best HQ that can't call a Waaagh!. Grot oiler is a waste of points.
Kommandos For just 3 extra points over boyz, you get the ability to infiltrate, +2 to armor when in cover for a 3+ save and +1 to wound when touching terrain. If you have 10 or more of these, you also can also specialize them for melee or range. Make sure to focus your unit.
Stormboyz (+1) Essentially fill the same role as kommandoz, but are slightly more mobile and flexible. They still die to a stiff breeze, but are cheaper than Kommandos now. Squads of 6 privide a good "Retrieve Nachmund Data" tool and they help with scoring. They work good in Alphork style lists that want to overwhelm the opponent fast and got a few neat but situational strats with the BA supplement.
Megatrakk Skrapjet Tons of rokkit shots make it great for vehicle hunting that also brings a decent close combat weapon and four big shootas.
Ruckatrukk Squigbuggy After a complete rework for the launchers, a new mine and better saws the squig buggy is actually one of the best models in the codex. Even in larger units, they can just hide out of sight and lob angry squigs across the board. Got hit with the nerf bat twice but is still good.
Warbikes Smoke cloud is back! In addition, they went up by one wound, have better guns and advance faster. A great unit for grabbing objectives which are difficult to remove. They got a lot of addional buffs in the Speed Mob army of renown as well, among those gaining ObSec and a build in invulnerable save.
Wazbom Blastajet (+1) 5++ KFF (only for AIRCRAFT now though) with BS4+ and the guns now deal tons of damage. No vehicle is safe from this looted doomsday cannon. You might want to put the 2 you are allowed to take in reserve though, as the opponents know what they do do by now and will try to take them out fast. Depending on the list they might become your TTL targets, so keep that in mind when list building as this is a secondary your Speed Mob will have to take every now and then.
Thoughts: I think Wazbom, Wartrike and Koptas all earned their place in top tier, as they got quite good and make an appearence in about 99% of all Speed Mob lists which is 1 of our top 2 builds right now. Other lists have been using them as well. Stormboys seem to have been taken rather for the mission play than their output and seem to do good combined with Kommandos. Mozrog and Squigboss seem to be on par now. I think you could put them both in A tier instead of S tier, as they are rather expensive but they are still the choppiest HQ`s we got. Thoughts on that?
MA Mek seems to have lost a bit of love by the Ork players as Speed Mob can`t take him and Alphork don`t wants to, but other builds seem to still rely on his once per game 5++ and his shoota lurks still around sometimes to snipe off a small character. I`d keep him here as he is still solid but i think A-tier is a relatable choice as well.
A-Tier:
Spoiler:
Warboss in Mega Armour With access to great relics and warlord traits, you can turn this warboss into a brawler that can take on anything but the most powerful combat experts. The 'uge choppa is no killa klaw, but still a decent weapon to crush elite infantry. Having a gun with a realistic chance of hitting stuff also isn't terrible.
Warboss (+1) Only Warboss on foot that can take the Killa Klaw which helps a lot in a dmg -1 meta. You can make him pretty good in melee if you combine it with the BBC warlord trait. The squig attacks can proc additional attacks with the Klaw so pay that extra 5 points for maximum choppiness.
Boomdakka Snazzwagon It's main gun has been upgraded to do 2 damage per shot, which changes everything. Good against any kind of infantry, cheap and rather durable, it is only outdone by even better buggies.
Kustom Boosta-Blasta The KBB combines a reliable anti-chaff tool with a solid elite/light armor hunting weapon and a mortal wound ram ability for a discount price.
Shokkjump Dragsta Good, reliable anti-tank firepower. The loss of their stratagems makes them less flexible and bigger units make deep striking not as easy as it was before.
Mega Armoured Nobz (+1)MANz are great for taking and holding objectives, and with the "Hit 'em harder" stratagem not even a knight is safe from them. Killsaws are fairly expensive now, so PK and skorchas are probably the better alternative. Can be trukkboyz.
Squighog Boyz Essentially these are warbikers with less shooting but better melee. With the help of stratagems and the goff or snakebite culture, these can punch way above their weight class and deal massive damage to vehicles and monsters. Sadly, they die easily.
Battlewagon Multi-functional transport that can transport up to 20 shooty models, a unit of MANz and/or some boyz into battle. For unknown reason it's a lot cheaper than the specialist versions Battlewagons should always be run along with other vehicles. If you are transporting valuable targets, make sure to buy the fortress kustom job.
Deff Dreads Tellyport them in to attack a vulnerable part of your enemy's army, two often fit better than three. For shooting the KMB is the vastly better option over the rokkit, skorchas are an option if you need anti-horde options. Has access to dmg 3 melee which is a good thing to have right now.
Killa Kanz (+1) S8 & dmg3 makes them actually good in melee right now and they are quite choppy in large mobs backed up by a banner nob. Shootas and skorchas are probably best to keep them cheap and to get some extra mileage out of them. Have been seen in tournament lists since they got a sweet price discount.
Kill Rig Psychic main battle tank that has similar melee of deff rolla wagon, the shooting of a gunwagon and comes with a free wurrboy stuck to it for a similiar price as a fully decked out battlewagon. It can also transport models, but no one cares. Has seen some play in Alphork lists but got a small price bump. Keep in mind it gives up quite a few secondaries and might have problems manouvering around terrain.
Mek guns Mek guns have taken a hit with lower unit sizes and no longer being able to split up makes them vulnerable to their terrible ld. They still provide good shooting with KMK once again being the best choice, with the other three closely behind. If you are feeling lucky, even the bubblechukka has become a decent choice now. Single Mek Guns have been used as cheap campers.
Dakkajet Good against anything that's not well armored, always buy the extra shootas. Can be useful for assassinating characters, as it can jump next to them and unload its guns on them. It's the best unit for the moar dakka kustom job, but it still only serves as a point sink, spending points on other units will likely be better.
Trukk Trukk boyz are actually a fairly decent choice for troops, and both lootas and burnas might be potential passengers. The improved big shoota is welcomed, but nothing to write home about.
Warboss on Warbike (FW) Fast model that can carry the killa klaw. Gains ObSec in Speed Mob.
Kannonwagon (FW) Great gun and improved BS combined with insane range. Ork don't have many good weapons with 3 damage, and this fills the niche nicely. Sadly it lacks the WAGON keyword so you can`t use it in Speed Mob right now.
Kill Tank (FW) Low cost, decent shooting, high durabilty. Super heavy auxiliary detachments are cheaper now, so you might squeeze him in a little bit easier. GW decided to take away his ramshackle though, so keep that in mind.
Thoughts: MA nobs, Warboss / MA Warboss have all seen a good amount of use and seem to be pretty popular here on Dakka and in the few tournament top placings we have right now as well. One might argue they could be S-tier as well, but i think they are just a little bit too expensive for that. They simply are the best option for what you want in those lists, but are solid at most. I upgraded the regular Warboss to that tier as he has been seen riding in Trukks a lot, is cheap and can carry the killa klaw which makes him on par with the MA boss who trades a bit of output for more tankyness. If MA nobs had at least an inbuild 5++ they would probably be s-tier, or if they would get another 5-10 points decrease which would definetely make them an auto take. The A-tier buggies are fairly decent and have all been seen in tournament lists or dakka users Speed Mob lists, but Scrapjets and Squigbuggies seem still to be the more favourite ones. I think they are fine here.
Killkans are cheap enough to be A-tier now and heve been seen on tournaments as well, who`d thought? Not sure if they earned their upgrade a 100% but since a lot of you guys seem to be fond of them as well i thought i`d give it a shot.
Personally i would downgrade the Wagon & Deffdread one tier which got rated just under 3/5 in Jid`s survey as well, but they have been seen occosionally and the Wagon got a small price decrease, so they could stay here. But if the majority still thinks B-tier fits them better i would agree to downgrade them.
Actually all of the vehicles in this tier feel like they are kinda in the limbo between A-tier & B-tier, so tell me what you guys think.
B-Tier:
Spoiler:
Mad Dok Grotsnik (-1) Finally free of his deff skulls clan lock, he is as durable as a warboss that provides models around him with a 6+++. A great addition for any infantry-focused list. Suffers from the fact that infantry heavy lists with large mobs are rather bad right now.
Ghazkgull Thrakka He can wreck pretty much anything in combat and can call both kinds of Waaagh! at once for a questionable benefit as most armies will focus on shooting or close combat. He is still hard to kill, but can no longer be healed in any way and by now there are a few things that get to ignore his 4 wounds a phase rule.
Kaptin Badrukk Great shooty HQ that can fit in with any list, even better if he has some flash gits to buff. He is fairly durable and can call a Waaagh! if you don't want another warboss in a freeboota army.
Snikrot Used similar to kommandoz or MANz, he beats enemy units off objectives and then stays there, near impossible to remove without dedicated shooting. He still suffers from being locked into blood axes, but at least he can be fielded in addition to another warboss or speedboss.
Zagstruk (+1) For his point costs and just 2 damage per attack he still doesn't compare well to other bosses, but he is fast and does not count towards your warboss limit per detachment. Can charge up to 33" out of a transport so might be a neat trick to hunt small characters or small non-elite squads.
Makari 2++ save, a 6+ FNP aura and the ability to tag along with Thrakka make him decent addition to goff armies. With all other support characters getting a kick in the nutz, he is actually a decent choice if you are bringing Thrakka.
Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun The SAG is a powerful long-range weapon. You need multiples to get any mileage out of them, and they are a bit overpriced. One might use the PTSD other players suffer from facing them in 8th edition so you could use it for some kunning mindgames.
Weirdboy No longer gets a cast bonus and has to be near 20 orks to cast a second power. This makes casting da jump a lot less reliable now and he can no longer jump himself, but most other powers got better. He doesn't fit well with fast lists, and slow footsloggers are rather bad now.
Wurrboy It's discipline is mostly about dealing damage at close range and buffing beast snaggas. It needs 20 orks nearby to cast a second power and has a low range shooting attack. It would be a decent support an army focusing on many footslogging orks.
Nob on Smasha Squig Decent and cheap melee character that deals a lot of mortal wounds and doesn't take up a slot. It does give your opponent assassinate points, so be aware.
Banner Nob Not locked into CORE and does not count as a warboss for the one per detachment limit. A valuable asset for any walker list, as none of them are CORE and while not fantastic they seem to bee at least decent now.
Boyz Slow, die easily, mediocre damage, vulnerable to morale and 9 points because it's 9th edition. At least choppas get AP-1 which makes them better than shoota boyz. You can turn them into trukk boyz though, which allows to disembark and charge after the trukk moved. Outside of that, they aren't too hot unless fielded as goff.
Flash Gitz Awesome guns that lay waste to light infantry, elite infantry, light vehicles and anything else that's not T7 or higher, decent armor saves, good combat ability and a good stratagem. Sadly, they are a bit too expensive.
Burnas (-2) Finally having gotten actual flamers, they can benefit from the pyromaniacs specialist mob to get insane number of average shots that make shoota boyz look like gretchin. If they ever manage to get in combat, you can now pay CP to get their cutter AP-2 back.
Lootas Lootas can now move and shoot, get a guaranteed two shots plus another one at half range but have to take mandatory spannas per 5. This allows them to rider transports without losing firepower, which they definitely should because they still die like flies despite T5.
Gorkanaut All its guns were improved and despite the loss of one attack, it's more deadly in combat. It cannot have a culture in SHA, but you can give it the Big Krumaz specialist mob instead. The tellyporta and ramming speed combo still works.
Burna Bommer In addition to fairly decent shooting, its bombs have been changed to drop old school blasts, which is fairly unique. Right now there is no real need for such a thing, but most horde armies haven't had their new codices yet. Skorcha missiles are a way to sink your last few points, but not awesome. The pyromaniacs special mob is wasted on the bommer.
Blitza-Bommer (-1) If you miss flying 'eadbut, this bommer brings two of them. The bombs are great against any elite MSU army. Suffers mostly from the Dakkajet & Wazbom being the better choices and fliers being restricted to 0-2 now.
Big'ed Bossbunka Paired with the tellyporta stratagem, this essentially becomes an ork drop pod for stuff like flash gits, tank bustas or lootas. Sadly the terrible 3" rule for setting up fortifications this from actually being good, but YMMV depending on how your tables look.
Thoughts: Not many changes here, most notibly an upgrade for Zagstruk who seems to have seen some play and looks not too shabby in Alhork lists right now.
Downgrades for Burnas, Grotznik and Blitza Bommer as they seemed to get not much love in the survey nor get any appearenced in any recent tournament lists.
Burnas needing a transport seemed to be the main problem here, so maybe that changes with Wagons getting a discount, but they don`t really offer something orks need right now.
C-Tier:
Spoiler:
Beastboss A beast-snagga specific warboss variant that faces the problem of not getting access to the killa klaw, not having a squigosaur and beast snaggas not being that awesome in the first place.
Painboss A faster pain boy with slightly better melee weapons, but can only heal beast snaggas and warbikes (wat?). Yet, he isn't fast enough to keep up with squigs or bikes and too expensive to be considered a budget HQ option.
Painboy Too expensive for the 6+++ he provides, but his mandatory PK sometimes kills something.
Big Mek with Kustom Force Field (+1) The KFF has become terrible unless you burn through it with a stratagem. After you have done that you are left with a choppa nob for 60 points. Maybe an option to get you non-Speed Mob parking lot a cheaper 5++ for one turn, but otherwise nope.
Tankbustas Powerful but fragile unit that tends to be dead as soon as your opponent can shoot them. A unit that has 24" range but wants to stand still doesn't work too well, though they are still decent at taking out vehicles, but not at much else. Both tank hammers and rokkit pistols should be avoided.
Beast Snagga Boyz The upgrade they get over regular boyz is totally worth 2 points, but boyz weren't worth it to begin with. Without being able to become trukk boyz, beast snaggas are just a unit that is too expensive to be used as tax.
Gretchin Terrible overcosted unit without objective secured, horrible morale, extra losses from attrition and no offensive output. The only value is that they can perform actions on a home objective, and when used as such should definitely be upgraded to 'orrible gits.
Bonebreaker The bonebreaker is powerful in melee and can transport units. The high price is not worth the extra d6 attacks compared to a regular battlewagon. The red rolla is a waste of points.
Gunwagon The "da boomer" is absolutely mandatory for the gunwagon, don't bother bringing one without. It's expensive though and doesn't do anything unique, there are plenty of options with do 2 damage shots better than the gunwagon. Inferior to the kannonwagon.
Hunta Rig Just like the kill rig, it has the melee of a bonebreaka but none of the other cool stuff. Being able to transport beast snaggas is rather worthless, which make the whole thing kind of bad.
Morkanaut With sparkly bits gone, the nauts sent to LoW exile causing both a loss of culture and requiring an extra detachment, there isn't much of a reason left to take the morkanaut. It did get a lot better in combat, but the gorkanaut is vastly better in that field.
Stompa Its points dropped once again and it finally reached regions where it doesn't just ruin your game for bringing it. Still not great.
Mekboy Workshop While no longer being pure self-sabotage, it has very narrow uses, assuming you can deploy it at all. It comes with a metric ton of barricades which are rather interesting for defending infantry while the shop can put kustom jobs on shooty units. Doubling up kustom jobs would be interesting if all of them weren't so bad.
Mek Boss Buzzgob (FW) He can super-charge a goff walker for a turn, so he is a nice addition if you were running a goff dread mob anyways. While interesting and unique, he is a bit too expensive for what he does.
Gargantuan Squiggoth (FW) Barely worth the costs, assuming you can get it around terrain at all.
Kustom Stompa (FW) The lifta droppas on this are some really mean weapons, but you might want to bring the cheaper regular stompa.
Thoughts: Not much to change, allthough i personally would upgrade the KFF to this tier. Yeah the KFF is bad, but at least he provides a cheap KFF if you really want to safe points over a MA Mek
D-Tier:
Spoiler:
Zodgrod Wortsnagga Yet another grot HQ that provides a completely worthless offensive buff to a unit that has the offensive capabilies of, well, gretchin. No thanks. The only redeeming feature is that he can put Gulliman to sleep with the squig stoppa.
Mini Mek Bad gun, bad melee, bad at repairing stuff and dies easily. Avoid. This text is unchanged since 7th, GW really doesn't want to sell this model.
Runtherd You have to run a lot of gretchins to make runtherds a useful investment, since they cost almost as much as a whole replacement squad of gretchins for the squad you lost because he wasn't there to stop them running away.
Nobz on Warbikes (FW) Unless they get updated with the new warbiker's rules there really is no reason to play them over squighogs or warbikers.
Yeah, nothing special here. One might rate the Runtherd better as he would make sense if you run 3+ mobs of gretchin if you want to flood the board, but outside of fun games with 100 Gretchin i wouldn`t bother. Nobz on Warbikes could get 1 tier better as well because you COULD run a almost Biker-only list with them, but honestly, outside of a fun game why would you bother.
As i bonus i thought it would be a good idea to add a few of the current tournament lists to the starting post.
I guess as it`s what Orks run nowaday it would make sense to have 1-2 Speed Mob lists, 1-2 Alphork lists and maybe a Freebooters build?
Freebooters have been quite popolar a few months back but seem to be far less so right now.
Thats what i had in mind:
Tournament lists:
Speed Mob (Army of Renown):
The Speed Mob provided Orks with a rather powerfull tool to field vehicle heavy lists that play fast and can dish out a lot of damage while staying mobile and get some pretection on top of that.
This army is kind of an sidestep, as you pay for these advantages with a very limited choice of models - Speedfreaks (Wartrike, Warboss on Bike, Deffkoptas, Warbikers and all 5 Buggies) as well as Wagons and Aircraft but loose access to any infantry.
As benefit you get access to a new warlord trait, 2 kustom jobs and 6 strategems of which 4-5 are really powerfull.
On top of that you get a few more Buffs for the Speedfreaks models (advance & shoot, 6++ that gets a 5++ after advancing, ObSec for bike models & +1 attack after charging). You get to keep you Clan keyword for strategems / relics / warlord traits purposes, but only Aircraft and Wagon models will profit from the Clan Culture.
So overall, Speed Mob lists have been quite similar due to the low model count. 3 clans have been proven to be the most popular for Speedmob:
Evil Sunz, as they add the ability to keep multiple mobs of Deffkoptas safe with "Attack out o`da sun" and "Drive by dakka" plus they have a good WL trait and relic.
Blood Axes, as they give you access to a lot of extra CP, mainly "I`ve got a plan lads" to get your Wazboms in reserve for free and "Tactical awareness" for actions with biker units while shooting.
Freebooters, as your models can still trigger the clan culture for the 2 Wazboms to make all their Dakka hit on 3+. Also the Warboss can steal ObSec with the Badskull banner while he himself gains it from being a Bike as well.
All three have their own advantages and there seems to be no real favourite, although ES & BA seem to be a bit more successfull and popular right now.
A big challange for Speed Mob armies is their limited ability to do actions, score primaries + secondaries and to screen out.
They also tend to be CP intensive with most of the relevant strategems being 2 CP and especially the Deffkoptas eating up a lot of CP recources.
The following two lists are in no way the best or only way to run a Speed Mob army but should rather show what a possible list could look like.
Example list Blood Axes:
Spoiler:
Blood Axe Outrider:
Deffkilla Wartrike (Warlord, Finkin`Cap, I`ve got a plan, lads)
3 Scrapjets
3 Squigbuggies
3 Shockjump Dragstas
2 Kustom Boosta Blastas
1 Boomdakka Snazzwagon
9 Warbikers
2 x Wazbom Blastajet (Force Field, 2 x Supa Shoota)
This one is a little harder to pin down, as there are multiple ways to build this army and all of them slightly vary in what units they take and what they want to to with it.
Right now most of them seem to prefer the extra damage you get out of the Goff trait over other Clans though.
The generall idea is to get as much stuff as possible into the opponent and either a) kill as much stuff as possible with quality units or b) throw as many small and cheap units as possible at them to slow them down and keep them in their deployment zone to prevent the opponent from scoring.
Popular units for this are Kommandos, Trukkboys (Boys & MA nobs, Warbikers, Deffkoptas, Stormboys, Squighog Boys, Kill rigs and various HQ`s to support it.
Example list: Yeah, not sure which one to take here. There are a few lists online that vary quite a lot.
I think it would be good to put 1 list with Kill Rigs and choppy stuff here as well as one Alphork a la Semper?
What do you guys think would be the best 2 to put in there?
What about Freebooters, still worth a note in the first page post?
Also, should the text about those lists be a bit longer to explain more abaut their tactics, possible secondaries and the like or should they be kept plain and simple?
I'll admit that it took a while to get used of the speed king aura but after a tournament messing it up I've figured it out and I find it very much worth it provided you can make use of if in the shooting and fight phase.
Do you not use it loads with the rukkatrukk unit?
If I was going to get rid of it I'd probably slim down to one outrider and to save effectively 4 CP (2 for extra relic and trait, 2/3 as I go down to 1 detachment) the 115 points could be well spent on 2 more deffkoptas.
Saying that my two deffkoptas units (one of 6 one of 5 plus two wazbomms one of which runs the forcefield) add up to 990 points so unless I run blood axes that's all I can put in reserve.
I didn't fully appreciate that evil sunz can use drive by dakka always. Has anyone used it after falling back, after coming in from reserves or to fly a plane off the board after shooting?
Driven by dakka - After reserves yes, every game couple of times. What drops by Attak out of da sun mostly use it in my games. And sometimes even on Scrapjets to move them to the right spot to score on objective. The same on Bikers. Jets are not SpeedFreaks however.
Speedking - I did use it on RSBs. Honestly, almost only on them + some Koptas. Wazbooms are away another turn and what I like on Speed Mob is the fact, you can go anywhere and you can go fast and do the job. That helps me to score a lot.
However, this limits the use of Speedking. You need to keep HQ at home.
And the math is really not impresive. Let' s say
10 koptas = 20 shots on 5+ = 6,6 wounds
3 RSB in short range = 21 on 4+ = 10,5 w.r.
And 10,5 shots on 5+ =3,5 w.r = total 14 w.r.
2 wazbooms = 9 shots on 4+ = 4,5 wound rolls
—————————————————————
Total about 25 w.r. = 4 rolls of 1. Reroll and no more than 2 of the, do another wound. One of them will be saved = 1 x 3dmg in average. Before any damage reduction or FNP. And the reality is mostly even worse because of -1 to hit everywhere around.
In T1 you propably do not havy any units in CC 6” and later wazbooms are away. And anyway, the results are not significantly better. Total effect in the whole game is what? Definitely no more than 15dmg per game. And these are distributed in 5 turns randomly across the board.
And to get this you have to keep 120p model weak and at home.
On other side, you can have a fast and tough murdering machine doing 15 dmg in 2 turns zooming around and doing the damage on the place you need them in the time you need them and - in case of warboss on warbike - be an obsec biker holding objective or dropping explosives.
What I like on no-Speedking list is, that it' s super clean game. Not a single aura in the whole army. Not a single reroll. Everything is independend. You can attack or screen as you need. Absolute orky freedome.
Check the speedmob lists posted there since Christmas. You will see this setting is one of the valid ones. Speedking is more common but not the only one.
The true is, that the SpeedMob is not a one playstyle. ES version is focused on keeping Koptas safe and move a lot. BA is focused on perfect keeping the army safe if going second and burning CPs. And do not forget there is also a FB version boosting the wazbooms on max + doing a very nasty business with anti obsec banner. All of them are valid and different.
Single detach ES speedmob - I played this list in January / Feb and it was cool but very unflexible. You will need to max almost all the FA units and in Nachmund GT you will feel short on units. Lost the flexibility to score. That was the reason I switched to double detach. speed mob is CP hungry but you need them a lot in first 2 turns. After that, the table is either cleared enough to be safe to stop jumping like the kangaroo or you are in hell anyway
My old single detach had 2 squads of bikers and Speedking Wartrike = 2 units able to score and do some stuff like that around pr be sacrificed to slow down some bloody terminators by comming 1,1” in front of them and do the bloody long “no tresspass” line or whatever.
Now I have 3 squads of bikers + 2 warbosses on warbikes = 5 units able to do all this stuff. That is super usefull for me.
Do not forget that Bikerboss can do the Telyport Homers, tag the sticky objectives as obsec and do the primary mission actions. For example - In the Mission 12 - explosives - they are pure gold - move 20”, drop the bomb and 4 VP at home.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Grotrebel - well done!
Warboss on warbike - definitely the same tier as wartrike. Watrike should be in cyan. As the warboss. Both are good in being HQ but non of them is extremely exciting. Beastboss is a tier higher for sure.
Typical lists - the concept of their Secondaries is crucial. The good list is built around the plan how to score. So list without a secondaries is just the half of the story.
For speed mob the trick with TTL is crucial. That is the whole point. You have hard to kill jumping stuff for 15 WP, flexible army to score Engage and than struggle to manage the third one somehow.
There are basicly 2 types of Speedmob lists based on the number of warbikers.
3-4 model count units:
Bitz
Homers
5-6+ model count units:
Data - very strong in scoring but cost you some of your firepower.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another important aspect of SpeedMob secondary plan is - it' s a trap!
It' s a trap on Bring it down. You tell the opponent, you have 20 VP on BID. It' s true, but you have about 10-12 of them in jumping deffkoptas impossible to kill and another 3 in backfield 3xRSB squad or something playing on TTL.
So it' s 20 VP just in case you' re wiped out.
In fact it' s about 5-6 for 2 jets and some small buggy squad… if any….
Automatically Appended Next Post: Huh, I have a great idea! I give the BikerBoss the Redder Paint and Ard as Nails and use him like a durable VP missile to enemy deploy to score Homers for 4 VPs…
Tomsung you make a good argument against speedking.
I missed drive by dakka was speed freek locked... So is speedking by the way so if you disliked it before you're definitely going to dislike it now that it doesn't work on the planes.
CaptainO wrote: Tomsung you make a good argument against speedking.
I missed drive by dakka was speed freek locked... So is speedking by the way so if you disliked it before you're definitely going to dislike it now that it doesn't work on the planes.
On the other side, don' t take me so absolutely. I' m good in making good points also in cases I' m wrong
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CaptainO wrote: Tomsung you make a good argument against speedking.
I missed drive by dakka was speed freek locked... So is speedking by the way so if you disliked it before you're definitely going to dislike it now that it doesn't work on the planes.
Ohhh!§§ I see what you say! Not only Driven by dakka. But also a Speedking is only SPEEDFREAKS - so doesn' t work on the Wazbooms and it exclude the CHARACTERS. So id doesn' t work on the warbosses! Hell! It ' s even worse! Ok, that solved my dilema with the Speedking definitely. I go to give a try the Redder Telyport Hommers Bomb and see…
I bring to attention because of the hive guard rules, they now require a spotter to shoot. I fully expect we receive the same treatment.
Why would we receive the same treatment? We dont have units that shoot without line of sight that are spammable. You can buy 18 hive guards. We can buy 3 squigbuggies...
I bring to attention because of the hive guard rules, they now require a spotter to shoot. I fully expect we receive the same treatment.
Why would we receive the same treatment? We dont have units that shoot without line of sight that are spammable. You can buy 18 hive guards. We can buy 3 squigbuggies...
It's not that they are spam able, but they shoot without line of sight, it's the same type of weapon profile. And looking at GW track record they will probably import to every weapon profile of similar type, that's my reasoning. Still we are talking of conjecture and I am not advocating that it should apply to us, I am waiting for the data slate that should drop today I think. Hopefully if they do follow that route they would lift the ban on more then single squad of buggies.
I bring to attention because of the hive guard rules, they now require a spotter to shoot. I fully expect we receive the same treatment.
Why would we receive the same treatment? We dont have units that shoot without line of sight that are spammable. You can buy 18 hive guards. We can buy 3 squigbuggies...
It's not that they are spam able, but they shoot without line of sight, it's the same type of weapon profile. And looking at GW track record they will probably import to every weapon profile of similar type, that's my reasoning. Still we are talking of conjecture and I am not advocating that it should apply to us, I am waiting for the data slate that should drop today I think. Hopefully if they do follow that route they would lift the ban on more then single squad of buggies.
The squig buggies were oppressive when you could have 9, now you can have 3, for an increased cost even, so they arent oppressive at all anymore.
The hive guards can remain oppressive by being in such large groups.
If they nerf ork squigbuggies with the same manner they would also nerf Plagueburst crawlers in the same idea. Or even kill/hunta rigs Mortars.
I dont think this spotter rule will become a thing, i think its just a thing for units that shoots without line of sight that can be spammed to this degree.
Anybody have luck running Mega-Dreads or Meka-Dreads
Grabbed a couple and am working on building/ painting. the Mega-Dreads have a mega charge ability built in for roll an extra D6 for charge and discard to lowest. Movement is 8 but degrades to 6 at 8 wounds and 4 at 4 wounds which is not great
gun seems nice heavy D6 str8 ap-2 damage 2 blast
melee hitting at str 16 ap-3 damage D3+3
Meka-Dread has same main weapons but instead of 2 str5 flamers they can repair vehicles and are 165 points vs 175 for the MegaDreads
I bring to attention because of the hive guard rules, they now require a spotter to shoot. I fully expect we receive the same treatment.
Why would we receive the same treatment? We dont have units that shoot without line of sight that are spammable. You can buy 18 hive guards. We can buy 3 squigbuggies...
It's not that they are spam able, but they shoot without line of sight, it's the same type of weapon profile. And looking at GW track record they will probably import to every weapon profile of similar type, that's my reasoning. Still we are talking of conjecture and I am not advocating that it should apply to us, I am waiting for the data slate that should drop today I think. Hopefully if they do follow that route they would lift the ban on more then single squad of buggies.
The squig buggies were oppressive when you could have 9, now you can have 3, for an increased cost even, so they arent oppressive at all anymore.
The hive guards can remain oppressive by being in such large groups.
If they nerf ork squigbuggies with the same manner they would also nerf Plagueburst crawlers in the same idea. Or even kill/hunta rigs Mortars.
I dont think this spotter rule will become a thing, i think its just a thing for units that shoots without line of sight that can be spammed to this degree.
considering tau broadsides.. I won't hold my breath. let's wait and see.
I'm still waiting for someone to reasonably explain how Squigbuggies were oppressive?
Assuming you were in 18' range, assuming you were freeboota, assuming you proc'd your kulture, it was 10.5 shots, 5.25 hits, 3.5 wounds (against T4) and on average 4.6dmg a turn vs Marines.
Vs T6+ vehicles it was 1.75 wounds and 2.3dmg
You have to get a lot of things going or you to get that 2nd gun into range AND have freeboota proc. And then you are 18' from the enemy which is relatively easy charge range for most factions these days.
SemperMortis wrote: I'm still waiting for someone to reasonably explain how Squigbuggies were oppressive?
Assuming you were in 18' range, assuming you were freeboota, assuming you proc'd your kulture, it was 10.5 shots, 5.25 hits, 3.5 wounds (against T4) and on average 4.6dmg a turn vs Marines.
Vs T6+ vehicles it was 1.75 wounds and 2.3dmg
You have to get a lot of things going or you to get that 2nd gun into range AND have freeboota proc. And then you are 18' from the enemy which is relatively easy charge range for most factions these days.
Orks can't have good things I guess.. even looking at the profile 9 for their cost and output is nothing close with the recent codex's, oh and we haven't even seen the new eldar being played.
Art of war has already made a small vid where several pro players give their thoughts on the current meta state, on eldar craftworld they almost said the thing was broken, they discuss it at 1:15:52
Grabbed a couple and am working on building/ painting. the Mega-Dreads have a mega charge ability built in for roll an extra D6 for charge and discard to lowest. Movement is 8 but degrades to 6 at 8 wounds and 4 at 4 wounds which is not great
gun seems nice heavy D6 str8 ap-2 damage 2 blast
melee hitting at str 16 ap-3 damage D3+3
Meka-Dread has same main weapons but instead of 2 str5 flamers they can repair vehicles and are 165 points vs 175 for the MegaDreads
Mega Dreads are nice to tellyport and have reliable charges with the mega charge, meaning you don't have to blow the 2CP on ramming speed if you have a unit like deffkoptas coming on the same turn as them and still having a high chance of them making into combat.
The Killkannon is a waste of time for both Meka and Mega Dreads, its shooting is anemic and you're better off with a second klaw for the extra attack. Right now I would say Mega Dreads are better simply because Meka Dreads have a BS4+ that is underutilized with the weapons options he has, while the repair function doesn't work on itself and is very unlikely to be in range of other vehicle units to make it worthwhile, so you may as well go all in on offense with the Mega Dread.
SemperMortis wrote: I'm still waiting for someone to reasonably explain how Squigbuggies were oppressive?
Assuming you were in 18' range, assuming you were freeboota, assuming you proc'd your kulture, it was 10.5 shots, 5.25 hits, 3.5 wounds (against T4) and on average 4.6dmg a turn vs Marines.
Vs T6+ vehicles it was 1.75 wounds and 2.3dmg
You have to get a lot of things going or you to get that 2nd gun into range AND have freeboota proc. And then you are 18' from the enemy which is relatively easy charge range for most factions these days.
Because 36” range x 9 buggies = about 3x5man squads of objective holding and mission doing stuff dead without any chance for protection, propably turn 1 = totaly cripled army for scoring.
SemperMortis wrote: I'm still waiting for someone to reasonably explain how Squigbuggies were oppressive?
Assuming you were in 18' range, assuming you were freeboota, assuming you proc'd your kulture, it was 10.5 shots, 5.25 hits, 3.5 wounds (against T4) and on average 4.6dmg a turn vs Marines.
Vs T6+ vehicles it was 1.75 wounds and 2.3dmg
You have to get a lot of things going or you to get that 2nd gun into range AND have freeboota proc. And then you are 18' from the enemy which is relatively easy charge range for most factions these days.
My understanding is that it's fairly good at splatting a little chaff unit sitting out of sight on an objective, or finishing off crippled units, and then kicking off Freebootas for the rest of the list. Think a unit of grots/stormboys in a ruin, or a unit of intercessors that has been thinned out.
The Dakkajet is another pretty good example of the Squigbuggy's niche, but the Squigbuggy shoots from out of LOS rather than just being able to be wherever it wants.
It's not busted on its own, but helps set other things in motion. Squigbuggies and Dakkajets were more of a by-product of Freebootas being "problematic" at the time compared to other kultures.
Because 36” range x 9 buggies = about 3x5man squads of objective holding and mission doing stuff dead without any chance for protection, propably turn 1 = totaly cripled army for scoring.
They say….
I don 't care, old story for me…
True, but at 36' range you are only getting 7 shots on average instead of 10.5, so its 3.5 hits, 2.2ish wounds and 1.4 wounds, or 2.8dmg to a Marine unit. So 3 of them shooting the same target would end up with 4 dead Marines on average. Pre-nerf thats 270pts of Buggies killing 80ish points of Marine. if that was game breaking for elite armies...well they suck.
Afrodactyl wrote: My understanding is that it's fairly good at splatting a little chaff unit sitting out of sight on an objective, or finishing off crippled units, and then kicking off Freebootas for the rest of the list. Think a unit of grots/stormboys in a ruin, or a unit of intercessors that has been thinned out.
The Dakkajet is another pretty good example of the Squigbuggy's niche, but the Squigbuggy shoots from out of LOS rather than just being able to be wherever it wants.
It's not busted on its own, but helps set other things in motion. Squigbuggies and Dakkajets were more of a by-product of Freebootas being "problematic" at the time compared to other kultures.
So it synergized slightly well with freeboota and therefore had to be killed because nothing is allowed to synergize in the ork codex :(
So it synergized slightly well with freeboota and therefore had to be killed because nothing is allowed to synergize in the ork codex :(
Pretty much
Like we've mentioned before, for whatever reason, success in Ork lists placing in tourneys leads to an immediate hate boner wave in the community and demands for nerfs are almost immediately both asked for and given at a speed that surpasses other factions. It's like subconsciously GW has succeeded in implanting that we're an NPC faction that absolutely cannot be anything besides "that wacky xenos race".
So every other army has a hate train for us, old news, let them cry in a corner!
I was under an impression the dataslates would be available today, guess I am wrong.
I think your alpha ork will benefit from battlewagons Semper, good amount wounds and you can carry MANZ which with goff deliver a harder punch specially versus custodes and with the goff stratagem. Just keep them cheap and with a rolla.
I was under an impression the dataslates would be available today, guess I am wrong.
What dataslates? We expect something? Why should be there some extra changes to orks now? GW has their new schedule, I don' t expect any changes in orks before summer. Last dataslate was 4.2. and it should be quaterly. So next one no sooner that 4.5. Just Erratas for the new codexes maybe (which our is not anymore).
Beside that, everything drops on Saturday or Sunday anyway…
Elves I can't really say. Gonna have my second game against them today. They have a lot of different tools and good but expensive units. I think we will know more in a few weeks when / if there are popular builds.
Custodes are tough and can still hurt our shooting with their banner.
They can somewhat ignore their bad primary matchup against as with a few good secondaries like psychic interrogation with an Inquisitor or stuff like grind / stranglehold.
The bikes are nasty and a nightmare to shift.
Those 4++ saves and T6 5 wounds are tough to chew through. Also they have a lot of utility strats like transhuman or tanglefood granades that can ruin our day. Also everything besides Bikes has ObSec, so they are surprisingly good in holding objectives.
Try to kill the Bikes fast and you can decide where the fight is and establish board control.
And pray his 4++ Bikes don't roll hot.
Tau have lots of Crisis in their popular builds, which are fantastic in killing our stuff. Airburst and SMS puts out a lot of indirect fire while Cyclic Ion Blasters S8 D2 3 shots and Plasma S8 D3 is o real pain for our vehicles.
They mostly have BS4+ but markerlights give them +1 to hit with commanders handing out rr 1s and Shadow Sun working like a chapter master.
They have multiple sources of wound rerolls and +1 to wound. Normally they will go for Montka instead of Kauyon, which boosts their mobility and dmg output turn 1-3 (advance and shoot + reroll 1 to wound in a certain distance)
Breachers in Devilfish have seen some play (up to 3 can disembark after moving and have a horrendous output), but they have a short range. So if you see a Devilfish with breachers inside kill it ASAP.
All units can take multiple Drones. They work a bit different, right now they are basically part of the unit with Shielddrones having 2 wounds and a 4++. That's enough to tank the first damage, so you either need to chip away as many Drones as possible turn 1 to get the damage where it needs to be.
Big shootas are great for that, as are Dakkajets. (Who are not bad against Crisis in General as all the Suits are T5.)
You'll mainly see Borkan (+4" range & a strat to make 1 gun ignore invulns & ranged attacks under S8 get -1S) or Farsight Enclave Allied world (basically Farsight but can take Ethereals for extra CP and a 5+++ buff. Trait with +1 to hit under 12" and a full reroll / hit strat)
Tau Sept has 3 redeploys, combined with stuff like infiltrating Stealth Suits or shadow sun and pulling them back after deploying can disturb your Kommandos.
A few other things:
If he has a homing beacon (probably with Stealth Suits) he can deepstrike turn 1 near them.
Kroot have a 7" Pregame move and are the Tau solution to board control. Kill them fast to prevent the Tau from scoring.
Let's of indirect fire and a move shoot move strat makes it hard to get a grip on those nasty Battlesuits.
He will probably try to cripple your army turn 1-3 and score afterwards.
Try to keep some stuff back and move block his stuff. They can shoot and do actions, so keep that in mind.
Tau really like Nachmund data but need to max it out turn 3-5.
If they have Vespids try to screen out your 2 quarters until turn 3 to make it harder.
Tau will Out damage you most of the time put score later. Anything that steals them VP is good. Sneak a squad of boys on their Objectives as often as possible. Commanders with 2 Drones can do engage, if he takes it try to kill one with a few Pistol shots or boy attacks, even if you don't kill the commander. Tag stuff as often as possible. Only one unit can fallback and shoot. He can shoot in close combat but that prevents your other units of getting shot at. He can only shoot in engagement range, so if its possible Tag only 1 suit or a Drone and he basically has no shooting if he forgets to pile in.
It's quite probable you get tabled but still win the game.
This is brilliant. Awesome post Grotrebel
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tomsug wrote: Typical lists - the concept of their Secondaries is crucial. The good list is built around the plan how to score. So list without a secondaries is just the half of the story.
QFT. I find most lists borderline useless to read without the full info.
What dataslates? We expect something? Why should be there some extra changes to orks now? GW has their new schedule, I don' t expect any changes in orks before summer. Last dataslate was 4.2. and it should be quaterly. So next one no sooner that 4.5. Just Erratas for the new codexes maybe (which our is not anymore).
Beside that, everything drops on Saturday or Sunday anyway…
I was under the wrong impression. I heard somewhere that it was in previous day, rest is story... fact check in the future...
Scactha wrote: QFT. I find most lists borderline useless to read without the full info.
Yeah I agree, i would like to mention good bitz and psychic interrogation, real easy secondaries with our current armies, engage on all fronts is also easy for us
Beardedragon wrote: The squig buggies were oppressive when you could have 9, now you can have 3, for an increased cost even, so they arent oppressive at all anymore.
The hive guards can remain oppressive by being in such large groups.
If they nerf ork squigbuggies with the same manner they would also nerf Plagueburst crawlers in the same idea. Or even kill/hunta rigs Mortars.
I dont think this spotter rule will become a thing, i think its just a thing for units that shoots without line of sight that can be spammed to this degree.
I agree, it's highly unlikely that they go back and change old codices. I'm fairly sure that this is how they will hand IG artillery which is bound to break the game in half (or be worthless) when their codex drops. Having spotters for artillery is a very good and flavorful fix IMO.
I agree, it's highly unlikely that they go back and change old codices. I'm fairly sure that this is how they will hand IG artillery which is bound to break the game in half (or be worthless) when their codex drops. Having spotters for artillery is a very good and flavorful fix IMO.
They could make vox casters tie in with spotting as well. That would be nice and fluffy.
Orks don't need spotters because our accuracy is garbage anyway, so it doesn't matter whether we can see our target or not
Tomsug wrote:Mega dread is nice. Combine his charge ability with ramming speed to get super nasty charge range.
Appeared in competitive builds in autumn. Some goff preasure lists with ghazzy. But really not so common.
cool, have 3 mega dreads and 2 mekas. will try both, plan is currently like stompy robots take a flank of the board, will def be using ramming speed at times too for the long bomb charges
Grabbed a couple and am working on building/ painting. the Mega-Dreads have a mega charge ability built in for roll an extra D6 for charge and discard to lowest. Movement is 8 but degrades to 6 at 8 wounds and 4 at 4 wounds which is not great
gun seems nice heavy D6 str8 ap-2 damage 2 blast
melee hitting at str 16 ap-3 damage D3+3
Meka-Dread has same main weapons but instead of 2 str5 flamers they can repair vehicles and are 165 points vs 175 for the MegaDreads
Mega Dreads are nice to tellyport and have reliable charges with the mega charge, meaning you don't have to blow the 2CP on ramming speed if you have a unit like deffkoptas coming on the same turn as them and still having a high chance of them making into combat.
The Killkannon is a waste of time for both Meka and Mega Dreads, its shooting is anemic and you're better off with a second klaw for the extra attack. Right now I would say Mega Dreads are better simply because Meka Dreads have a BS4+ that is underutilized with the weapons options he has, while the repair function doesn't work on itself and is very unlikely to be in range of other vehicle units to make it worthwhile, so you may as well go all in on offense with the Mega Dread.
The plan is fielding 3 mega dreads and 2 mekas for supporting them doing with restoring 1d3 wounds to 2 of the 5 meks. I would agree though that megas are better if choosing one or the other as a solo model. its 855 points and i think the profiles make them pretty good and with buggy, dakka jet, and wartrike lists can negate most of the antiinfantry shooting in a list
on the fence on guns vs 5 extra attacks across them. its 5 attacks str 14 AP-3 D D3+3 hitting on 3's, 4's or 5's depending on wound status vs. across 5 cannons 17.5 str 8 ap-2 damage 2 shots more so if the blast applies, so we average 5.77 hits or about 1 per model at that profile (blast could be good vs eldar, harlies, tyranids with the upcoming codex, and other orks, but less useful against our boogieman of custodes). Plan is to magnatize for klaws so will try as both but I do think the klaws are likely to win out vs more matchups.
Does this mean 4 units of deffkoptas (1 boomboys) are allowed in speedmob… considering things like buggies warlords and aircraft are hadcapped and troops and Transports uncapped anyway… deffkoptas and mega nobs having another unit isn’t bad.
“ Page 4 – Muster Armies
Add the following bullet point to the exceptions listed in the right-hand column:
‘• Specialist Mob units”
They also confirmed named characters like mozgrod can be added to detachments without breaking the single clan rule.
Also another faq update is and they have now completely skipped over “critical mass” campaign book and are past nachmund campaign now… deffkoptas attack out da sun is NEVER going to be faq’d.
gungo wrote: Does this mean 4 units of deffkoptas (1 boomboys) are allowed in speedmob… considering things like buggies warlords and aircraft are hadcapped and troops and Transports uncapped anyway… deffkoptas and mega nobs having another unit isn’t bad.
“ Page 4 – Muster Armies
Add the following bullet point to the exceptions listed in the right-hand column:
‘• Specialist Mob units”
They also confirmed named characters like mozgrod can be added to detachments without breaking the single clan rule.
Also another faq update is and they have now completely skipped over “critical mass” campaign book and are past nachmund campaign now… deffkoptas attack out da sun is NEVER going to be faq’d.
No offense but I think you got it all wrong ;(.
1/ They clarified that the specialist mob is an exception to the "same keyword" rule. It is not related to the "3 identical datasheets" max.
2/ Named characters are exampt from the "SELECTABLE keyword" rule. Because on named character you cannot 'select' it, as it is predetermined.
gungo wrote: Does this mean 4 units of deffkoptas (1 boomboys) are allowed in speedmob… considering things like buggies warlords and aircraft are hadcapped and troops and Transports uncapped anyway… deffkoptas and mega nobs having another unit isn’t bad.
“ Page 4 – Muster Armies
Add the following bullet point to the exceptions listed in the right-hand column:
‘• Specialist Mob units”
They also confirmed named characters like mozgrod can be added to detachments without breaking the single clan rule.
Also another faq update is and they have now completely skipped over “critical mass” campaign book and are past nachmund campaign now… deffkoptas attack out da sun is NEVER going to be faq’d.
No offense but I think you got it all wrong ;(.
1/ They clarified that the specialist mob is an exception to the "same keyword" rule. It is not related to the "3 identical datasheets" max.
2/ Named characters are exampt from the "SELECTABLE keyword" rule. Because on named character you cannot 'select' it, as it is predetermined.
1) yea you are right there are 2 exemption lists in that column.. to bad they didn’t clarify which exemption list on page 4 second column they meant.
2) um what you wrote means the same thing I said mozgrod is exempt from the selectable keyword rule….
Warlord doesnt force the detachment for the Goff
Even if it did, big whoop because Ghaz has his own free detachment that you have literally all the reasons to use and none to NOT use (because it allows another warboss to be picked since Ghaz is not in that detachment, hes in supreme commander)
Vineheart01 wrote: Warlord doesnt force the detachment for the Goff
Even if it did, big whoop because Ghaz has his own free detachment that you have literally all the reasons to use and none to NOT use (because it allows another warboss to be picked since Ghaz is not in that detachment, hes in supreme commander)
Ah yes, thats true. Well i do play a list with Ghaz that happens to be goffs in which hes not in a supreme detatchment, in order to save points on HQ slots though.
Lock out of what relic? Unless youre running Evil Sunz (which why the crap would you want ghaz with an ES list) the clan relics are kinda crap. i pretty much only use killchoppa/dedshinyshoota for relics.
Vineheart01 wrote: Lock out of what relic? Unless youre running Evil Sunz (which why the crap would you want ghaz with an ES list) the clan relics are kinda crap. i pretty much only use killchoppa/dedshinyshoota for relics.
Booter relic is good. ES relic is good.
ES strat is good, as is Booter strat.
Blood axe relic AND strat are good.
Snakebites? Lol snakebites, well it's all bad.
Deathskulls? Kind of a wash.
Bad Moons? well, lol bad moons. They're in the penalty box for 8th.
Goffs strat is good (albeit expensive), relic is ok.
gungo wrote: Does this mean 4 units of deffkoptas (1 boomboys) are allowed in speedmob… considering things like buggies warlords and aircraft are hadcapped and troops and Transports uncapped anyway… deffkoptas and mega nobs having another unit isn’t bad.
“ Page 4 – Muster Armies
Add the following bullet point to the exceptions listed in the right-hand column:
‘• Specialist Mob units”
They also confirmed named characters like mozgrod can be added to detachments without breaking the single clan rule.
Also another faq update is and they have now completely skipped over “critical mass” campaign book and are past nachmund campaign now… deffkoptas attack out da sun is NEVER going to be faq’d.
I think at this stage it looks like GW meant attack out of the sun to be used as is (can pop a unit back into reserve the same turn as it arrives) I've not seen any tournaments say otherwise and as annoying as it maybe it gives the speedmob a unique tool.
Maybe of it became oppressive (which would require orks to once again win a tournament) it would force gw to take a look at all our rules (substandard nob bikers and weird vehicle squadron rules I'm looking at you) until then it's fair game.
gungo wrote: 1) yea you are right there are 2 exemption lists in that column.. to bad they didn’t clarify which exemption list on page 4 second column they meant.
One has bullet points and one has not. Datasheets also never have the specialist mob keyword, units do. It's rather clear which one they meant.
gungo wrote: Does this mean 4 units of deffkoptas (1 boomboys) are allowed in speedmob… considering things like buggies warlords and aircraft are hadcapped and troops and Transports uncapped anyway… deffkoptas and mega nobs having another unit isn’t bad.
“ Page 4 – Muster Armies
Add the following bullet point to the exceptions listed in the right-hand column:
‘• Specialist Mob units”
They also confirmed named characters like mozgrod can be added to detachments without breaking the single clan rule.
Also another faq update is and they have now completely skipped over “critical mass” campaign book and are past nachmund campaign now… deffkoptas attack out da sun is NEVER going to be faq’d.
I think at this stage it looks like GW meant attack out of the sun to be used as is (can pop a unit back into reserve the same turn as it arrives) I've not seen any tournaments say otherwise and as annoying as it maybe it gives the speedmob a unique tool.
Maybe of it became oppressive (which would require orks to once again win a tournament) it would force gw to take a look at all our rules (substandard nob bikers and weird vehicle squadron rules I'm looking at you) until then it's fair game.
The weird vehicle rules were a direct nerf to spamming squigbuggies, although i am firmly on the side that 9 of those don't output enough damage to be oppressive and it was a combination of everything + T7 units that made it feel oppressive because most players want weapons S4 to kill T7 units. But that's my take.
Hell even the mech gun changes in the start of the codex follow the same reasoning.
Nob bikers, their forge world models, it's hard to say, SM dreadnaught culverins just got the nerf they deserved but took a while, so I don't expect them to change it any time soon. Although it is also strange because they did update the warboss on warbike. Honestly I dunno if it is oversight or they are trying t phase them out.
I mean there is literally a nob on warbike in the warbiker datasheet and that model has all the rules that should have been on the nob biker datasheet.. it has +1 wound, cloud of smoke, big red button, and core….
They can phase out the nob bikers datasheet from Fw but the nob biker in the warbikers datasheet will always exist since the plastic kit has that 1 special plastic bike model that holds a boss pole. It’s just silly that GW kinda ignored the whole datasheet.
Forceride wrote: Although it is also strange because they did update the warboss on warbike. Honestly I dunno if it is oversight or they are trying t phase them out.
They kind if had to change the warboss on warbike because otherwise it would have been the best warboss by far, as it still would have had access to 8th edition's auras.
In general GW does as little as possible for FW. Unless a unit is super popular or broken, it doesn't get anything beyond minimum effort updates.
gungo wrote: Does this mean 4 units of deffkoptas (1 boomboys) are allowed in speedmob… considering things like buggies warlords and aircraft are hadcapped and troops and Transports uncapped anyway… deffkoptas and mega nobs having another unit isn’t bad.
“ Page 4 – Muster Armies
Add the following bullet point to the exceptions listed in the right-hand column:
‘• Specialist Mob units”
They also confirmed named characters like mozgrod can be added to detachments without breaking the single clan rule.
Also another faq update is and they have now completely skipped over “critical mass” campaign book and are past nachmund campaign now… deffkoptas attack out da sun is NEVER going to be faq’d.
careful here, some characters are exempt via SPECIALIST LADZ, but not all characters are on that list, others would have to come in a AUXILIARY SUPPORT DETACHMENT or the entire detachment loses klan kulture via rules on ork clan detachments
"If your army is Battle-forged, <CLAN> units from ORKS Detachments gain access to the following clan rules, provided every model in that Detachment that is drawn from a clan (with the exception of Specialist Ladz) is from the same clan. Such a Detachment is referred to as a Clan Detachment."
Just played chaos knights with my bike heavy speed mob list but I ran it as a single detachment (warboss on wartrike, 2*8 warbikes,1*9warbikes, 2* deffkoptas one of 5 one of 6, 1 squad of 2* rukkatrukks, 2*wazbomms) I took TTL on the two deffkoptas and larger bike squad and gave both wazboms forcefields.
I paid 3cp to start the wazboms in reserve and also put the two squads of deffkoptas into deep strike. I got first turn.
T1 I scored 2 on engage, and dropped did retrieve nachmund data and did borderline zero damage.
In his turn he killed 7 out of 8 of my bikes but I spent 2 CP pass moral.
Turn 2 I brought in everything and by the bottom of 3 I had tabled him (3 big knights tooled for shooting and 3 lightening lock wardogs) the big knights were even on t9 for two turns.
6 deffkoptas charging with crashing through twice really caused him problems.
Honestly the 2*rukkatrukks did literally nothing. I'm thinking of changing them for one more 5*deffkoptas that I'd start on the table and use drive by the keep them safe t1 (if there's a change to indirect coming then this is even better) it would change my 3 ttls to the 3 deffkoptas but I think I'd only take that when my opponent doesn't give up any secondaries anyway.
And they depend very much on the opponent. To some armies they do nothing. On the other hand, some armies struggle because RSBs clear their scoring units very well.
CaptainO wrote: Just played chaos knights with my bike heavy speed mob list but I ran it as a single detachment (warboss on wartrike, 2*8 warbikes,1*9warbikes, 2* deffkoptas one of 5 one of 6, 1 squad of 2* rukkatrukks, 2*wazbomms) I took TTL on the two deffkoptas and larger bike squad and gave both wazboms forcefields.
I paid 3cp to start the wazboms in reserve and also put the two squads of deffkoptas into deep strike. I got first turn.
T1 I scored 2 on engage, and dropped did retrieve nachmund data and did borderline zero damage.
In his turn he killed 7 out of 8 of my bikes but I spent 2 CP pass moral.
Turn 2 I brought in everything and by the bottom of 3 I had tabled him (3 big knights tooled for shooting and 3 lightening lock wardogs) the big knights were even on t9 for two turns.
6 deffkoptas charging with crashing through twice really caused him problems.
Honestly the 2*rukkatrukks did literally nothing. I'm thinking of changing them for one more 5*deffkoptas that I'd start on the table and use drive by the keep them safe t1 (if there's a change to indirect coming then this is even better) it would change my 3 ttls to the 3 deffkoptas but I think I'd only take that when my opponent doesn't give up any secondaries anyway.
You paid CP to put the Wazboms in reserve? Arent wazboms, like any of our super sonic planes, allowed to start in reserve already for free?
Edit: Why was i under the assumption that they could deepstrike for free? Werent there a rule that allowed them to do that once? Im so confused right now.
CaptainO wrote: Just played chaos knights with my bike heavy speed mob list but I ran it as a single detachment (warboss on wartrike, 2*8 warbikes,1*9warbikes, 2* deffkoptas one of 5 one of 6, 1 squad of 2* rukkatrukks, 2*wazbomms) I took TTL on the two deffkoptas and larger bike squad and gave both wazboms forcefields.
I paid 3cp to start the wazboms in reserve and also put the two squads of deffkoptas into deep strike. I got first turn.
T1 I scored 2 on engage, and dropped did retrieve nachmund data and did borderline zero damage.
In his turn he killed 7 out of 8 of my bikes but I spent 2 CP pass moral.
Turn 2 I brought in everything and by the bottom of 3 I had tabled him (3 big knights tooled for shooting and 3 lightening lock wardogs) the big knights were even on t9 for two turns.
6 deffkoptas charging with crashing through twice really caused him problems.
Honestly the 2*rukkatrukks did literally nothing. I'm thinking of changing them for one more 5*deffkoptas that I'd start on the table and use drive by the keep them safe t1 (if there's a change to indirect coming then this is even better) it would change my 3 ttls to the 3 deffkoptas but I think I'd only take that when my opponent doesn't give up any secondaries anyway.
You paid CP to put the Wazboms in reserve? Arent wazboms, like any of our super sonic planes, allowed to start in reserve already for free?
Edit:
Why was i under the assumption that they could deepstrike for free? Werent there a rule that allowed them to do that once? Im so confused right now.
Aircraft have their own rules regarding deployment from strategic reserves, in that they don't have to deploy at the edge of the board.
But during battle they can fly off the board and go into strategic reserves for free. Not start in reserves for free.
Vineheart01 wrote: which i never understood why...its not like its a separate entity or something that any sales in FW messes with GW.
Hell, isnt the last 40k release like 3 years old now? And they have decommissioned like half of their normal range?
With the driving person behind FW gone, technological advancement of their technology to a point where models of any size and detail can be made of plastic, their turf of super-detailed collectors models being eaten up by third party models and 3d printing and their general history of being even worse at writing rules than the main studio, I think they are slowly fading out FW40k in a similar way that ancient metal models are slowly going away.
I've been saying it for years, and I still firmly believe that you should only ever invest in FW resin if you really care for the models. They will absolutely go the way of the dodo eventually - which doesn't bode well for neither the nobz or the warboss on warbike.
In any case, from playing them a lot recently, I believe that the squighog riders are the replacement for nob bikers. They play and feel a lot like nob bikers used to be, so I doubt that nob bikers will get fixed to step on their turf.
Another fact is, that the FW nob bikers are really below the standard designs. I expect they disappear or will be replaced by plastic alternative soon.
Technically there already is a plastic version in the warbiker box.
But I also beleive that we won’t see a squad of nobs on warbikes once fw discontinued them.
The warboss on bike is interesting. Lore wise it’s all over the place with several names variants etc.
I don’t think it will be discontinued forever once fw model is gone.
It also seems like a model that would sell extremely well unless they somehow botched it.
But I guess the wartrike was their shot at making a warboss+1 and they simply failed at what they were trying to do and created an interesting new HQ instead. Task failed successfully!
Afrodactyl wrote: I generally find a Nitro Squigs Rukkatrukk is waaay more valuable than two. They're kind of a one or three unit in my opinion.
Ya I agree. I was basically making up points. Again I tabled him middle of 3 with effectively 220 points down.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I ran a warboss on wartrike as my sole hq giving up the obsec warboss on bike. There's something to be said about the fact it's a vehicle and can therefore score engage (while not being targeted if place correctly) and also his shooting is better than the bike.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Honestly only after writing about it did I realise I could have taken titan slayer. I'd take it over RnD (and keep TTL where I only got 10) especially on the board we played which limited mobility of bikes.
Obsec bikes were great at the "tertiary" mission where I dropped bombs. I spent 2 CP to keep the nob alive which worked wonders. Easy to hide and dropped 4 during the rest of the game (seeing as he was tables from t3)
Jidmah wrote: It also seems like a model that would sell extremely well unless they somehow botched it.
But I guess the wartrike was their shot at making a warboss+1 and they simply failed at what they were trying to do and created an interesting new HQ instead. Task failed successfully!
I’m just waiting for wazdakka gutsmek to come back with his twin linked battlecanon warbike… he was a way cooler warboss on bike than zhardsnark the rippa…
Vineheart01 wrote: if they ever do an evilsunz focused release and dont bring back wazdakka it will be a serious crime.
I'm hopeful for a Wazdakka Gutsmek/Warboss on warbike multipart kit in the future, a la the Squigboss/Mozrog box.
I also think that nob bikers will be brought back into the codex, because others have said, the models already exist and bike based speedwaaaghs have been in the lore forever. Plus, it's a bonus for GW when you have to buy an entire box of warbikers every time you want a single nob biker.
A general rules question relating to my wazbomms and the viability of taking engage on all fronts with my single detachment speed mob. When checking if an aircraft (which is a vehicle) is inside a table quarter to get engage is it just the base or do I need to do an awkward top down measurement to ensure the wings are also inside?
Also if I put the plane into reserves at the start of the game I'm assuming it can come on anywhere on the board (similar to if it flew off an came back the next turn) and isn't limited to the traditional "within 6" of a board edge.
Finally is an aircraft coming in from strategic reserve able to avail of the "can deploy within 9" if it comes in from your board edge" ability.
Still working on my Secondaries but here they sit so far, in descending order of likelihood to take.
1: Behind Enemy Lines. This one is a no-brainer. My entire army is geared towards getting into the enemy as quickly as possible, so scoring 4VP a turn for having at least 2 units behind enemy lines will be relatively easy for turns 1-3.
2: Raise the Banners. This one is going to be a bit harder, but the upside is that I have the option of securing this multiple times a turn, so if in turns 3-4 I have units sitting around with not much to do they can score me this with relative ease. I also wouldn't be adverse to leaving behind a biker unit or 3 to run around scoring this all game long. Be relatively easy to score this objective 3 times turn 1.
3: Whatever my enemy is: If i'm playing against Grey Knights or TS i'm going to go for Abhor the witch. If I play against a mech heavy list i'm going to go with Bring it down. And if I play against an infantry heavy list i'll go with No prisoners.
There is a small chance I could go for the Ork secondary about looting the gubbinz.
SemperMortis wrote: Still working on my Secondaries but here they sit so far, in descending order of likelihood to take.
1: Behind Enemy Lines. This one is a no-brainer. My entire army is geared towards getting into the enemy as quickly as possible, so scoring 4VP a turn for having at least 2 units behind enemy lines will be relatively easy for turns 1-3.
2: Raise the Banners. This one is going to be a bit harder, but the upside is that I have the option of securing this multiple times a turn, so if in turns 3-4 I have units sitting around with not much to do they can score me this with relative ease. I also wouldn't be adverse to leaving behind a biker unit or 3 to run around scoring this all game long. Be relatively easy to score this objective 3 times turn 1.
3: Whatever my enemy is: If i'm playing against Grey Knights or TS i'm going to go for Abhor the witch. If I play against a mech heavy list i'm going to go with Bring it down. And if I play against an infantry heavy list i'll go with No prisoners.
There is a small chance I could go for the Ork secondary about looting the gubbinz.
Yeah, i like the good bitz one, have you consider it?
Initially I was skeptical about engage in a speed mob but I've changed my mind. If anyone could clarify if it's the base of an aircraft or the full model that needs to be wholly inside a table quarter it'd be super helpful.
I've always found engage good in a normal list but I haven't played it since the min 3 rule came in so behind enemy lines is probably better now.
I believe that in 9th ed, if a model has a base, then you pretty much ignore the hull for measuring distance.
Just explain to your opponent -before starting the game- that for distance on your flyer you will always measure from the base, i see no reason he will contest that.
All distances are measured to the base, line of sight, however, can be measured to the base and the model itself. being wholly within a table quarter is a distance i believe.
Though even if i say that, models on bases still cant overhang edges, like planes cant have their wings outside the battlemap itself even though distances are drawn to the base.
Maybe that has an effect on the quarter thing. I dont THINK it does, i think you just need the base to be wholly within, but im not 100% sure
Both Grot tanks and grot Mega tanks have Ere' we go! despite them not needing it.
But Killa Kanz who needs this ability, does not.
Why would killa kanz not have ere we go, when grot tanks do..
Suspect same situation has nobbikers, their not intended but because their very rarely used, GW does not care.
ORKS are highly restricted and highly penalized compared to other factions.
i play other factions sometimes, but none of the others face anywhere near the restrictions ORKS face, why ? i don't know, i suspect it because ork players are very talented and so the faction gets nerfed and penalized alot more than others
but the examples are obvious to see.
unit upgrades that result in detachment ability, stratagem, aura ability loss,
vehicle upgrades that apply to 1 model and this model has to be in a unit of 1, why a unit of 1? which other faction has that kind of restriction ?
aura abilities restricted not just to CORE but specific unit types,
random units not having expected abilities (killa kans ere we go,nob bikers red button cloud of smoke, troops that don't have objective secured )
weird weapons that average 1 wound but cost excessive points, 15 points for a Killkannon , should be free weapon choice like other factions
the most restricted set of stratagems seen to the point where you can pick out about 5 strats and leave the rest at home because most of the strats are unit specific not weapon type specific, or shared keyword specific , (excluding clan stratagems)
keywords exist on certain units just to make sure you can't use certain strats, abilities on them, example Kustom Stompa doesn't have the STOMPA keyword to make sure you can't use LUMBERING STRIDES
TELLYPORTA strat excludes MONSTER ORKS just to stop you having gaz on there.
DED SNEAKY strat excludes mega armoured units
BREAKIN’ HEADS strat excludes all gretchin units
i still think there are more nerfs coming, warbikers and deffkoptas will be next, 30 points warbikers and ATTACK OUT O’ DA SUN will be changed to end of the shooting phase
) But it was a proof - my maybe 10th game with SpeedMob? Still list and gameplan “under construction”.
Not kidding.
