Hehe, I think that suggestion has been floated. The problem, of course, is that the guy who sculpted it apparently chimed in with a "what to do with a normal person?" sort of remark, heh. Poor guy...

It struck me that Sedition Wars as a whole (except the Yannick stuff) seems to have drifted towards a much more "heroic scale" sort of look, from the limited that McVey usually puts out. I wonder how that will work over the long term. I mean, it looks good, but the limited stuff looks insane.

I wonder how that will work out over time. Having two ranges with such distinct looks.

That Yannick is crazy though. I never really dug the Constance Blaze for Warmachine, until I saw the greens on his blog.

It's just a badly-sculpted face on top of a nicely-sculpted model that differs slightly from the concept art in proportions, etc.

Kinda like Ridley.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think its just people that cant get it into there heads that its "concept art" drawn by a artist who most proberly dosnt sculpt ,,then the sculpter has to convert this into a 3d version and unfortunatly what works for a pic dosnt allways work for a figure , hey hum i think she looks good ,not one i want but im sure the others will be just as good.

 Commander Cain wrote:
I thought the face was a little chubby, specifically the cheeks but nothing worth complaining about! The more time they spend fiddling around with faces, the less time they have to sculpt the rest of the models. Not saying they should rush the process, I just like seeing updates!

I think most of the 'problem' with the face is actually just coming from the mouth... It's much larger than on the concept art, and makes the entire face look very different.


Having said that, I'm a big fan of her as is.

 scipio.au wrote:
I
Kinda like Ridley.

Kinda!? Its sooooooo freaking nice Its the best mini to hit wargaming world this year!

*Snort* Well, that's a sign of confidence: the thread talking about the Pilot miniature has been locked. And the general feedback thread has a nice big "do not continue that topic in this thread or start a new topic on the matter".

It's always a good sign when moderators clamp down on discussion. Reflects a widespread feeling of good cheer in the community I find.

In fairness there are some rather amusing moments in the discussion thread where one of the moderators blows his top and starts ranting at people for using the word "aesthetics". Ain't no call for such hi-falutent wurds when talkin' 'bout little dollies! Use man-wurds! Country-wurds!

Wow it's hard to mimic a hillbilly accent in text...

It's a shame to see one arrogant buffoon on his staff squander some of the goodwill McVey has (quite rightly) earned over the last few years.

For what it's worth, I'm apt to consider Iron Lilly a bit of a misfire (though seeing her painted might yet change my opinion). Ridley and Hexen, however, are fantastic - I hope Yannick will be handling the Calamity crew.

Buzzsaw wrote:*Snort* Well, that's a sign of confidence: the thread talking about the Pilot miniature has been locked. And the general feedback thread has a nice big "do not continue that topic in this thread or start a new topic on the matter".

It's always a good sign when moderators clamp down on discussion. Reflects a widespread feeling of good cheer in the community I find.

In fairness there are some rather amusing moments in the discussion thread where one of the moderators blows his top and starts ranting at people for using the word "aesthetics". Ain't no call for such hi-falutent wurds when talkin' 'bout little dollies! Use man-wurds! Country-wurds!

Wow it's hard to mimic a hillbilly accent in text...

One of those threads (the Pilot?) seems to have disappeared entirely.

English Assassin wrote:It's a shame to see one arrogant buffoon on his staff squander some of the goodwill McVey has (quite rightly) earned over the last few years.

For what it's worth, I'm apt to consider Iron Lilly a bit of a misfire (though seeing her painted might yet change my opinion). Ridley and Hexen, however, are fantastic - I hope Yannick will be handling the Calamity crew.

This is probably a good time to remind everyone to not insult "across boards" - and probably a good time to remind everyone that a lot of the people 'over there' are probably 'over here' too.

Thanks!

While I think locking the thread was the right decision, I'm sad to see it has vanished entirely

making all signs of decent vanish is never a good thing, especially as there were many positive contributions made by posters (who liked AND disliked the sculpt)

If some of the nastier comments had to go they should have been deleted individually.

, I didn't keep a copy of the photoshopped fix I posted in that thread.

Wow, that's a near Games-Workshoppian (yeah, that's right, I'm making that a word!) level of bad messaging.

It really is a shame, there were a lot of gradients even among the people that were "dissenters" (that's... and interesting choice of words a quibble over a miniature, but it seems to have proved true), and I'm pretty sure the model sculptor posted his own photoshop in defense of his work. Really a damn shame to lose all of that.

I'm never a fan of making the record disappear and the heavy-handed way they (the management, that is) are handling this is very uncomfortable to see.

This would seem to be a common problem (in general) for the earliest successful kickstarters: they start building momentum, and pretty soon they are just throwing concept art up. Just looking at the bottom of the Biohazard sheet and the extras... almost everything is concept art.

It is bound to happen on "Company" message boards where the owners actively participate.

At least, that's been my experience.

You should have seen the old 'official' Rackham boards in action!

Or the old GW ones.

My friend put up a post about the Necromunda: Underhive book (and how terrible it was) every day. Never once did he get a response.

Well, Studio McVey is off to a great start. The forums used to be beyond quiet before the Kickstarter and now they have a bunch of people who have only jumped on since the Kickstarter as well as mods who were brought on during that time.

That they allow this, kills my confidence in their product. They are essentially silencing any critical discussion or feedback which is really, really pathetic and disappointing.

Somehow, I doubt I'll have an issue selling all my SW stuff if they keep this up.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Or the old GW ones.

My friend put up a post about the Necromunda: Underhive book (and how terrible it was) every day. Never once did he get a response.

Yeah because that level of obsession usually goes hand in hand with reasonable discourse with the creators of a game.

 Alpharius wrote:
It is bound to happen on "Company" message boards where the owners actively participate.

At least, that's been my experience.

You should have seen the old 'official' Rackham boards in action!

LOL you still remember those? they even forbided other companies names its was baaaaad there, specially when they flipped to ppp... dont miss those days tbh.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
It is bound to happen on "Company" message boards where the owners actively participate.

At least, that's been my experience.

You should have seen the old 'official' Rackham boards in action!

LOL you still remember those? they even forbided other companies names its was baaaaad there, specially when they flipped to ppp... dont miss those days tbh.

Of course I remember - I got into a fair amount of trouble over there.

And it was exactly when they did pull the bait and switch to pre-painted plastics!

And yes, I'm still bitter about that, and the loss of some of the greatest miniatures ever made...

More on topic here - yeah, Official Company Owned Forums can and will be Moderated with Extreme Prejudice.

 IdentifyZero wrote:
Well, Studio McVey is off to a great start. The forums used to be beyond quiet before the Kickstarter and now they have a bunch of people who have only jumped on since the Kickstarter as well as mods who were brought on during that time.

That they allow this, kills my confidence in their product. They are essentially silencing any critical discussion or feedback which is really, really pathetic and disappointing.

Somehow, I doubt I'll have an issue selling all my SW stuff if they keep this up.

I'd hate to see you lose out on a great game due to frustrations with the way the company chooses to moderate their forums. If that were the universal case, droves of us would have bailed on GW years ago !!

Balancing free-speech and objective versus subjective comments and opinions on a producer's host forum is always tricky ... and a topic for another thread, I suppose.

Don't lose the faith, yet

If they wanna be a drama queen over a silly forum then let them sell the game. They deleted a post, so what. It doesnt reflect on the abilities and quality of the product shown thus far.

A little more complicated then "they deleted a post" there fella. The mods there made a thread specifically to discuss the problems some poeple had with the last WIP (or preview, not sure exactly what to call it).

When people proceeded to discuss the issue, they locked the thread. They then announced in the general feedback thread that, if you don't like a model, you can say so... exactly once. Bringing it up again will result in deleted posts and warnings/bannings.

Then they deleted the thread that held all the previous critical discussion.

Now, their forum, their rules, they can do what they want. But that's a bit freaky. There is not standing for abuse, and then there's GW-style "we invented the shoulder-pad, how dare you disagree" out-of-touch style receiving of criticism. That seems a lot more like the latter.

Also, not to belabor the actual point, but being utterly unwilling to face criticism about your product... I generally find that a giant red flag.

Is it possible here that it's just people being really thin-skinned? I dunno. But it ain't good.

Possibly the moderators got a bit over zealous in their passion for SW.

I am not a fan of Jada or Ridley's sculpts. Not up to SMcV's usual standard. Of course, these are works in progress for a boardgame not boutique resins.

Oddly I find myself preferring the Dreadball figures. Much better than Manic""s previous stuff.

Heh, I am picking up some dreadball figure to go along with my SW sets!

 Souleater wrote:
Possibly the moderators got a bit over zealous in their passion for SW.

I am not a fan of Jada or Ridley's sculpts. Not up to SMcV's usual standard. Of course, these are works in progress for a boardgame not boutique resins.

Oddly I find myself preferring the Dreadball figures. Much better than Manic""s previous stuff.

I think I read somewhere that Team McVey is doing art and more for Mantic now?

I don't know much about the production of miniatures, so pardon my ignorance in this question. Could Have Studio McVey/CMoN taken the master mini had its head cut off and re-sculpt a new head? If I recall right, the delivery date for Jada was not until next year, I would think that is enough time to get some changes in.

I was not as disappointed with the sculpt as some people were, I though the jaw could have been a little less pronounced but didn't seem to be as big of a deal to me.

But with about 40-ish percent (from that poll that was deleted) being disappointed in the head of Jada, and the new issue of a deleted thread, I wonder if it would be in the best interest to have the head re-sculpted even if it mean a small delay in shipping Jada and the other extras next year?

I don't know enough about sculpting, production and finances in the industry if this would be viable or suicide.

 Piston Honda wrote:
I don't know much about the production of miniatures, so pardon my ignorance in this question. Could Have Studio McVey/CMoN taken the master mini had its head cut off and re-sculpt a new head? If I recall right, the delivery date for Jada was not until next year, I would think that is enough time to get some changes in.

I was not as disappointed with the sculpt as some people were, I though the jaw could have been a little less pronounced but didn't seem to be as big of a deal to me.

But with about 40-ish percent (from that poll that was deleted) being disappointed in the head of Jada, and the new issue of a deleted thread, I wonder if it would be in the best interest to have the head re-sculpted even if it mean a small delay in shipping Jada and the other extras next year?

I don't know enough about sculpting, production and finances in the industry if this would be viable or suicide.

That's reasonable, why even allow feedback if they DO NOT CARE what we have to say?

I think that is a big issue here, they made a mint off Kickstarter 'investors' and people are trying to give feedback and being shutdown for giving anything negative or critical.

I own quite a bit of Studio McVey products and Sedition Wars Metal/Resin miniatures. I find the quality of the Ridley and this latest sculpt to be lackluster with what I was expecting based on prior quality from them. Truth be told? Looking forward to my Reaper Bones stuff over this now. ^.^

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
It is bound to happen on "Company" message boards where the owners actively participate.
At least, that's been my experience.
You should have seen the old 'official' Rackham boards in action!

LOL you still remember those? they even forbided other companies names its was baaaaad there, specially when they flipped to ppp... dont miss those days tbh.

Yeah, that's why my posts on any "official" boards for any of my hobbies is minimal at best. I've got a main board for each of my main three hobbies, and the three of them are broadly similar and all three thankfully lack rabid fanboi mods.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IdentifyZero wrote:
Well, Studio McVey is off to a great start. The forums used to be beyond quiet before the Kickstarter and now they have a bunch of people who have only jumped on since the Kickstarter as well as mods who were brought on during that time.
That they allow this, kills my confidence in their product. They are essentially silencing any critical discussion or feedback which is really, really pathetic and disappointing.
Somehow, I doubt I'll have an issue selling all my SW stuff if they keep this up.

Just remember, that you bought a boardgame with some extra stuff. Douchebag mods are something that crop up from time to time, but hopefully they'll get reined in. Ultimately though, if the game is good, you'll have to decide if that's enough to warrant keeping it, even if the company or elements of it are otherwise disagreeable. I mean, I haven't gotten rid of all my GW products, or Sony or Microsoft products, or so forth...

And some mods on a website are hardly indicative of the game or the people making it.

Let's not throw our toys out of the pram quite yet...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And some mods on a website are hardly indicative of the game or the people making it.

Let's not throw our toys out of the pram quite yet...

In the interest of being technically correct (the best kind of correct!), the various thread locking, topic clamp-down-ing (well, that's not a word...) were the McVeys (Ali, Mike and that damned Paco...). So... actually it was the people making the game.

Although in fairness, plenty of good things have come from not-so-nice people, so *shrug*.

Considering some of the stuff I read posted in that thread it's probably beter off gone. But as long as I get my models I don't really have to many issues about it.

 IdentifyZero wrote:

 Piston Honda wrote:
I don't know much about the production of miniatures, so pardon my ignorance in this question. Could Have Studio McVey/CMoN taken the master mini had its head cut off and re-sculpt a new head? If I recall right, the delivery date for Jada was not until next year, I would think that is enough time to get some changes in.

I was not as disappointed with the sculpt as some people were, I though the jaw could have been a little less pronounced but didn't seem to be as big of a deal to me.

But with about 40-ish percent (from that poll that was deleted) being disappointed in the head of Jada, and the new issue of a deleted thread, I wonder if it would be in the best interest to have the head re-sculpted even if it mean a small delay in shipping Jada and the other extras next year?

I don't know enough about sculpting, production and finances in the industry if this would be viable or suicide.

That's reasonable, why even allow feedback if they DO NOT CARE what we have to say?

I think that is a big issue here, they made a mint off Kickstarter 'investors' and people are trying to give feedback and being shutdown for giving anything negative or critical.

I own quite a bit of Studio McVey products and Sedition Wars Metal/Resin miniatures. I find the quality of the Ridley and this latest sculpt to be lackluster with what I was expecting based on prior quality from them. Truth be told? Looking forward to my Reaper Bones stuff over this now. ^.^

As far as I know, this was just a mod's decision to silence a forum user under his own judgement and not directly from the company itself. From my experience, mods always seem to be be fan boys to whatever degree and take criticism rather personal. I would like to hear from one of the Mcveys regarding this conundrum with the mod(s) and the sculpt of Jada, whether they plan on changing it or keeping it.



The head of Jada alone is no enough to turn me away from the game, I hope the McVeys did take notice and will pull for better quality control.

 Piston Honda wrote:

 IdentifyZero wrote:

 Piston Honda wrote:
I don't know much about the production of miniatures, so pardon my ignorance in this question. Could Have Studio McVey/CMoN taken the master mini had its head cut off and re-sculpt a new head? If I recall right, the delivery date for Jada was not until next year, I would think that is enough time to get some changes in.

I was not as disappointed with the sculpt as some people were, I though the jaw could have been a little less pronounced but didn't seem to be as big of a deal to me.

But with about 40-ish percent (from that poll that was deleted) being disappointed in the head of Jada, and the new issue of a deleted thread, I wonder if it would be in the best interest to have the head re-sculpted even if it mean a small delay in shipping Jada and the other extras next year?

I don't know enough about sculpting, production and finances in the industry if this would be viable or suicide.

That's reasonable, why even allow feedback if they DO NOT CARE what we have to say?

I think that is a big issue here, they made a mint off Kickstarter 'investors' and people are trying to give feedback and being shutdown for giving anything negative or critical.

I own quite a bit of Studio McVey products and Sedition Wars Metal/Resin miniatures. I find the quality of the Ridley and this latest sculpt to be lackluster with what I was expecting based on prior quality from them. Truth be told? Looking forward to my Reaper Bones stuff over this now. ^.^

As far as I know, this was just a mod's decision to silence a forum user under his own judgement and not directly from the company itself. From my experience, mods always seem to be be fan boys to whatever degree and take criticism rather personal. I would like to hear from one of the Mcveys regarding this conundrum with the mod(s) and the sculpt of Jada, whether they plan on changing it or keeping it.



The head of Jada alone is no enough to turn me away from the game, I hope the McVeys did take notice and will pull for better quality control.

That's not what I heard, or rather saw: the now defunct thread had a final post by Ali McVey closing it.

My impression from the now lost comments, as well as what little remains, is that they don't think there is a problem with the Pilot sculpt; the problem is " threads descend into bickering and argument - they will be locked and/or deleted".

Everything seems to point to their general attitude being the sculpt is fine, the product is fine, people are just overreacting.

Personally I found the mini rather pedestrian. If I had a pledge, would I drop it just on the basis of that? Probably not. If more then one of the concept art pieces came out that way? Ehhh... it depends on what motivated your pledge. The Strain minis didn't do much for me, the Vanguard are a little too heroic scale to really excite me. The models that were done by the same guy that did their limited resins were cool... but everything appears to indicate he did very, very few (if any) other sculpts for the line.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

 Piston Honda wrote:

 IdentifyZero wrote:

 Piston Honda wrote:
I don't know much about the production of miniatures, so pardon my ignorance in this question. Could Have Studio McVey/CMoN taken the master mini had its head cut off and re-sculpt a new head? If I recall right, the delivery date for Jada was not until next year, I would think that is enough time to get some changes in.

I was not as disappointed with the sculpt as some people were, I though the jaw could have been a little less pronounced but didn't seem to be as big of a deal to me.

But with about 40-ish percent (from that poll that was deleted) being disappointed in the head of Jada, and the new issue of a deleted thread, I wonder if it would be in the best interest to have the head re-sculpted even if it mean a small delay in shipping Jada and the other extras next year?

I don't know enough about sculpting, production and finances in the industry if this would be viable or suicide.

That's reasonable, why even allow feedback if they DO NOT CARE what we have to say?

I think that is a big issue here, they made a mint off Kickstarter 'investors' and people are trying to give feedback and being shutdown for giving anything negative or critical.

I own quite a bit of Studio McVey products and Sedition Wars Metal/Resin miniatures. I find the quality of the Ridley and this latest sculpt to be lackluster with what I was expecting based on prior quality from them. Truth be told? Looking forward to my Reaper Bones stuff over this now. ^.^

As far as I know, this was just a mod's decision to silence a forum user under his own judgement and not directly from the company itself. From my experience, mods always seem to be be fan boys to whatever degree and take criticism rather personal. I would like to hear from one of the Mcveys regarding this conundrum with the mod(s) and the sculpt of Jada, whether they plan on changing it or keeping it.



The head of Jada alone is no enough to turn me away from the game, I hope the McVeys did take notice and will pull for better quality control.

That's not what I heard, or rather saw: the now defunct thread had a final post by Ali McVey closing it.

My impression from the now lost comments, as well as what little remains, is that they don't think there is a problem with the Pilot sculpt; the problem is " threads descend into bickering and argument - they will be locked and/or deleted".

Everything seems to point to their general attitude being the sculpt is fine, the product is fine, people are just overreacting.

Personally I found the mini rather pedestrian. If I had a pledge, would I drop it just on the basis of that? Probably not. If more then one of the concept art pieces came out that way? Ehhh... it depends on what motivated your pledge. The Strain minis didn't do much for me, the Vanguard are a little too heroic scale to really excite me. The models that were done by the same guy that did their limited resins were cool... but everything appears to indicate he did very, very few (if any) other sculpts for the line.

I heard it was Ali closing the thread down to, I did not see firsthand.

Either way, the actions taken in these early stages of growth will show us the shape and definition that Studio McVey will take on. Mike has always been a great guy in the past and I would not have expected things to change with SM, but you, small companies change when they start to get bigger and along with it; the people inside of the company change. I think that is what we are seeing here.

As Studio McVey transitions from small miniatures boutique type of outfit to larger mass production, they are becoming increasingly GW like. It's a shame because Mike used to really show a great deal of care for his customers before this Kickstarter. Now? I need not say anything, actions speak louder than words.



PS - I have seen better sculpted heads on 1970s and 80s Grenadier/Ral Partha miniatures I own.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

That's not what I heard, or rather saw: the now defunct thread had a final post by Ali McVey closing it.

My impression from the now lost comments, as well as what little remains, is that they don't think there is a problem with the Pilot sculpt; the problem is " threads descend into bickering and argument - they will be locked and/or deleted".

Everything seems to point to their general attitude being the sculpt is fine, the product is fine, people are just overreacting.

Interesting. I guess they're struggling to cope with the changes. What I mean by that is that their forum pre-SW would have mostly been populated by big fans and huge fanbois. It would have been small, intimate, and overall very positive in terms of feedback. A whole "we love you and everything you do, you can do no wrong" kinda vibe. Now with about four thousand new potential forum participants, they'll be finding that their formerly-peaceful patch of the internet is getting overrun by new people, including many who are a lot less inclined to love everything that comes out of the place. In turn, they're (over?) reacting to the changes in the forum. Of course, with Mike and Ali both active there, it's much easier for them to take things personally.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 IdentifyZero wrote:

As Studio McVey transitions from small miniatures boutique type of outfit to larger mass production, they are becoming increasingly GW like. It's a shame because Mike used to really show a great deal of care for his customers before this Kickstarter. Now? I need not say anything, actions speak louder than words.

Not that I'm a fan of that sort of thing, but a couple of locked and purged threads doesn't quite equal "increasingly GW like." I'd suggest that your comment is actually the greatest exaggeration in the history of modern civilisation.

(see what I did there?)

@Alpharius: I have read comments that the same artist is doing concept work for both companies, yes.


SMV are obviously going through a huge change here. Moving from small releases to a pretty big project with a heck of a lot more customers, plus moving house, etc. I can understand a little tetchyness.

I hope that Mike and Ali understand that one of the reasons some of us were a little disappointed with the first draft of the new models is that they weren't up to the excellent standard of their normal miniatures.

As I think I said in the Dreadball thread that is partly my fault. I'm so used to seeing the finished resin boutique models that the WiP for plastic are inevitably going to look a little lower in quality. That said, I find Jada's face poorly done. Well executed 'homely' is not an issue.

I am also concerned that we may end up with something that used to plague GW and PP - different sculptors producing slightly different figures e.g. different scale, some sculptors being better* than others.


*And by better I mean suiting my preference for sharp, clear detail and realistic posing which may not be everyone's bag.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
In the interest of being technically correct (the best kind of correct!), the various thread locking, topic clamp-down-ing (well, that's not a word...) were the McVeys (Ali, Mike and that damned Paco...). So... actually it was the people making the game.

*holds up hands*

Fair enough. I did not know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 scipio.au wrote:
Not that I'm a fan of that sort of thing, but a couple of locked and purged threads doesn't quite equal "increasingly GW like." I'd suggest that your comment is actually the greatest exaggeration in the history of modern civilisation.

No kidding. They close a few threads and suddenly they're GW.

Keeeeeyyyy-righst people. Get a grip.

 scipio.au wrote:

Not that I'm a fan of that sort of thing, but a couple of locked and purged threads doesn't quite equal "increasingly GW like." I'd suggest that your comment is actually the greatest exaggeration in the history of modern civilisation.

(see what I did there?)

Yes, yes we did...

It wasn't closed because people were critiquing the sculpt. It was mainly due to the fact people were insulting other people's opinions. It is a free mini as well (unless you buy more).Some people are unhappy as it doesn't match the concept due seemingly based around the template for designing catwalk fashion. Long limbs and all that. There has to be a balance between understanding a concept and the actual physical product. Now I'm happy with the way all the sculpts have turned out so far. I'm not bothered by Hexen(?) but then didn't pick it due to not knowing who she was based on and the static concept art. I hope that they stray from some of the Concept poses as the Ramirez one is really boring.

I pledged solely for the not-Serenity models and the high quality sculpts SMV is known for. I am really not a fan of that head.

If the previews turn out to be less than my expectations can I withdraw my pledge?

Was that model not sculpted by McVey himself / are they bringing others sculptors in on the projects? Or did he in fact do it...?

Also, can someone link / spoiler tag / etc a pic of said model, as I'm losing track of which one we're talking about

I second the request for a pic... I have no idea what model apparently has a badly shaped head!

Is it this one?



Looks perfectly fine to me! I think it looks a little 'off' because it hasn't been painted yet, which specifically affects the eye area. When she has white eyes with big pupils it will offset the slightly eerie look of grey-orb eyes she has at the moment, which I think unbalances how it looks right now.

Otherwise looks to me like a beautifully sculpted little model.

Looks fine to me, will probably paint her Afro-caribean as barring the nose that's the vibe I get from the sculpt

I have no issues with that sculpt.

Most of the time, people are crying about T and A, and bulletproof bra's. That one is excellent, she's got good lines, the poise is good and the balence is there between functional, and good looking figure.

Any shots of her with the head in the battlesuit? That one is the one I'm interested in seeing.

We've not been shown the head for the THI yet

(hopefully the dispute won't stop them showing the sculpts as they are done)

 Grot 6 wrote:
Most of the time, people are crying about T and A, and bulletproof bra's. That one is excellent, she's got good lines, the poise is good and the balence is there between functional, and good looking figure.

Everything except the head is good. I also think the wrench is oversized, but that's not that big a deal to me.
I just really don't care for it.

rigeld2 wrote:

Everything except the head is good. I also think the wrench is oversized, but that's not that big a deal to me.

Or maybe that wrench isn't oversized?!?

On more happier notes, a new LE Sedition Wars model has been released:

"OF-1 Nikiita Perostek is one of the Vanguard's finest young pilots, but she finds herself in a tight spot with some orbital station Firebrand insurgents, requiring all the skill and tactics she learned in the academy to shake them off."



Looks fantastics. Not sure of the scale. Base is 50mm to give some idea. Looks nice though - first Vanguard vehicle seen!

That looks fantastic!

I'm really looking forward to a full tabletop wargame ruleset for the Sedition Wars galaxy...

Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn!

Do keep us updated on the flyer. If that is in scale with the rest of the game, I'd be picking one up for sure. Does kind of confuse me though, if they are sculpting brand new stuff, is the KS stuff (including the extras) done?

 whalemusic360 wrote:
Do keep us updated on the flyer. If that is in scale with the rest of the game, I'd be picking one up for sure. Does kind of confuse me though, if they are sculpting brand new stuff, is the KS stuff (including the extras) done?

I would guess that the Limited Edition resins are sculpted by different groups of artists: that looks in keeping with the rest of the resins, so probably the same guy (Harribo?). That sculptor isn't doing much, if any, work on Sedition Wars. I believe he did the two previously previewed SW LE minis (the first two, the doctor and not-Sigorney Weaver).

Previously the LE stuff has been between 32-35mm in height. Only marginally bigger.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
. I believe he did the two previously previewed SW LE minis (the first two, the doctor and not-Sigorney Weaver).

Sharro is also confirmed as a SW character from the bounty hunters faction. She's 32mm in height and is quite close in scale.

Oh, and ordered! Too good to pass! I mean, just look at it:

One thread closed = Studio McVey is GW

One miniature which isn't a carbon copy of the concept sketch = I wish I never pledged that Kickstarter/Studio McVey is off my Christmas card list.

Feth me you lot make me laugh sometimes. Seriozz bidnezz indeed.

Is there a time frame/plan to make Sedition Wars a 'real' tabletop wargame?

 Alpharius wrote:
Is there a time frame/plan to make Sedition Wars a 'real' tabletop wargame?

I seem to remember reading that their current plan is for the main board game and then a firebrand v bounty hunters expansion for Q1/2 next year. A second expansion for the alien race that created the strain to follow. If those all sell well, then they may produce a skirmish game (my emphasis). Mostly plucked from my memory - reliability usually alright, but occasionally fuzzy!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


No kidding. They close a few threads and suddenly they're GW.

Keeeeeyyyy-righst people. Get a grip.

Are we generating a Godwin corollary here?


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Nice, ridable drones. Updated Dr. Strangelove FTW!

Tim

 zedmeister wrote:


Oh, and ordered! Too good to pass! I mean, just look at it:

 zedmeister wrote:
Previously the LE stuff has been between 32-35mm in height. Only marginally bigger.

 Buzzsaw wrote:
. I believe he did the two previously previewed SW LE minis (the first two, the doctor and not-Sigorney Weaver).

Sharro is also confirmed as a SW character from the bounty hunters faction. She's 32mm in height and is quite close in scale.

Oh, and ordered! Too good to pass! I mean, just look at it:

Sorry, I wasn't sufficiently specific there: the same guy (Hennebo, not Harribo it turns out...) does most of the general release limited resins (the Beauty and Robot, the crazy plant elves, yadda, yadda), that guy also did Hexen and Ripley, which are limited to the Kickstarter. Sorry, I didn't mean limited as in the limited resins.

 zedmeister wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Is there a time frame/plan to make Sedition Wars a 'real' tabletop wargame?

I seem to remember reading that their current plan is for the main board game and then a firebrand v bounty hunters expansion for Q1/2 next year. A second expansion for the alien race that created the strain to follow. If those all sell well, then they may produce a skirmish game (my emphasis). Mostly plucked from my memory - reliability usually alright, but occasionally fuzzy!

Sounds about right - thanks for the memory jog!

So is this jet the SW scale (28mm?) or the larger(32mm)? I know its close, but its just enough to bug me.

You know what I find ironic, the typical loudmouth Dakka-forum dwellers who start whining about people stating anything, whether it is positive, negative etc...

Newsflash, we are all entitled to our opinions. If we could deny people an opinion, some of you would be on the top of my list, fortunately for you, I respect that right.

Do the same boys.


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rigeld2 wrote:
I pledged solely for the not-Serenity models and the high quality sculpts SMV is known for. I am really not a fan of that head.

If the previews turn out to be less than my expectations can I withdraw my pledge?

Nope, you are fethed if the concept art does not match expectations, so far, it has not.

If you check out: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/sedition-wars-battle-for-alabaster/comments

Looks like the first few dozen comments primarily consist of complaints regarding the new sculpt. Can you imagine if the Firefly crew is messed up like this? Firefly fanbois and fangirls are insane.

 IdentifyZero wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
I pledged solely for the not-Serenity models and the high quality sculpts SMV is known for. I am really not a fan of that head.

If the previews turn out to be less than my expectations can I withdraw my pledge?

Nope, you are fethed if the concept art does not match expectations, so far, it has not.

If you check out: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/coolminiornot/sedition-wars-battle-for-alabaster/comments

Looks like the first few dozen comments primarily consist of complaints regarding the new sculpt. Can you imagine if the Firefly crew is messed up like this? Firefly fanbois and fangirls are insane.

Not so! There was a guy at my local the other day who was in that boat: he pledged mainly on the strength of the concept art and the LE resins, and so the Pilot was... not quite what he had in mind, heh. He sent a message to Cool Mini or Not through the Kickstarter message system explaining his issue, they immediately offered to cancel his pledge and refund his money.

According to him, it's pretty easy to get out of things, just ask and explain why you want out.

Personally, I think you should think hard about what exactly you want out of the pledge. Unlike Red-Box or Dreamforge, which are the efforts a single individual and so have unified scale, theme and style, Studio McV farms out the mini work to different artists. This is certainly the case with the kickstarter exclusives, which seem to have been farmed out to several people with different styles.

Something to think about if your pledge was on the strength of the concept art, rather then interest in the game-as-a-game.

My pledge was on the strength of the concept art in addition to the quality that SMV has shown previously. Having the game was a cool side effect.

I'm not sure it's cool enough if the not-Serenity crew doesn't live up to expectations.

The sculpt is a fine transfer from the drawing. People should really learn that you can`t transfer darwings 1:1 to greenstuff.

The mini is fine by industry-standards everything else is just a matter of taste.

The thread was closed done because some poeple were not able to adhere to the forum rules. Some even insulted others via PM. You agree to the forum rules when you register and you have to follow them. If you do not so, you get what you deserve.

Personally: It´s maybe better that some people cancel their pledges since they have a sense of entitelment that is absolutly whacko. (i.e. I gave you my money, now I have the right to behave like a mule...)

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The sculpt is a fine transfer from the drawing. People should really learn that you can`t transfer darwings 1:1 to greenstuff.

The mini is fine by industry-standards everything else is just a matter of taste.

The thread was closed done because some poeple were not able to adhere to the forum rules. Some even insulted others via PM. You agree to the forum rules when you register and you have to follow them. If you do not so, you get what you deserve.

Personally: It´s maybe better that some people cancel their pledges since they have a sense of entitelment that is absolutly whacko. (i.e. I gave you my money, now I have the right to behave like a mule...)

I think many, like the above poster, pledged based on concept art and the extras rather than being huge fans of Sedition Wars.

I will avoid critical feedback or dissection of the Sedition Wars universe, which is nothing unique or special to get excited about.

Most of us were excited about Sedition Wars because of the prior quality of Studio McVey releases. I believe many of us, expected the same here.

It is good to hear that CMON is allowing people to cancel.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The sculpt is a fine transfer from the drawing. People should really learn that you can`t transfer darwings 1:1 to greenstuff.

Everything but the head is fine. I can't stand that head.

The mini is fine by industry-standards everything else is just a matter of taste.

So "fine" is cool for SMV? You don't expect higher quality?

Personally: It´s maybe better that some people cancel their pledges since they have a sense of entitelment that is absolutly whacko. (i.e. I gave you my money, now I have the right to behave like a mule...)

Yes, it's a sense of entitlement for thinking quality should not go down from your average when a purchase is made.

I would understand your whining better if you would have payed 10-20 dollar for this miniature, considering it's "price" I can´t understand it.

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The sculpt is a fine transfer from the drawing. People should really learn that you can`t transfer darwings 1:1 to greenstuff.

The mini is fine by industry-standards everything else is just a matter of taste.

It seemed to me that the real problem was one of comparison. They previewed a total of 3 of the kickstarter exclusive miniatures, the Doctor, the woman-with-child and the Pilot. The first two were done by the same guy that does the limited edition resins. And they looked like... things done by a guy that does limited edition resins that go for $25 a piece.

The other one was... "fine by industry-standards".

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The thread was closed done because some poeple were not able to adhere to the forum rules. Some even insulted others via PM. You agree to the forum rules when you register and you have to follow them. If you do not so, you get what you deserve.

Personally: It´s maybe better that some people cancel their pledges since they have a sense of entitelment that is absolutly whacko. (i.e. I gave you my money, now I have the right to behave like a mule...)

I dunno, I remember reading it at the time, the guy that seemed most out of whack (as in, making nonsensical arguments) was a whiteknight (that is, arguing that everything was fine). I'm also not completely sure how closing an open thread stops people from sending PMs... moving on.

The most fascinating thing about all of this to me is the way Kickstarter can become a problem through success. With the incredible drive to put more stuff up for people to consume as quickly as possible, companies end up making promises that they can't necessarily follow through on, or, perhaps put another way, they create unrealistic expectations.

Like was mentioned above, the Pilot sculpt is fine by industry standards. If it was a GW sculpt, it would be above average. But the people who pledged had a higher expectation, and the limited communication post-kickstarter, I think it's going to get messier before it gets better. The strange refusal on the part of the studio to simply list who ended up doing what is particularly puzzling to me, but I'm sure there is some reason.

 notprop wrote:


One thread closed = Studio McVey is GW

One miniature which isn't a carbon copy of the concept sketch = I wish I never pledged that Kickstarter/Studio McVey is off my Christmas card list.

Feth me you lot make me laugh sometimes. Seriozz bidnezz indeed.

Ill tell you what makes me laugh.. When people say ridiculously mad paranoid gak about GW, in the same post they support McVey.

At least I am uniform in what I have said all along..

Mother fethers take the hobby far too seriously.. be it GW, McVey, Drop Zone commander or anything else.. I really cant believe some of the nuts gak I read on here, and how much grown men complain about their toys.

In fact, am I missing something? Is it another sculpt I havent seen that has seen people cancel their orders? Or are people actually super pissed about that perfectly acceptable, nicely sculpted female mechanic who now has normal sized legs?

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
I would understand your whining better if you would have payed 10-20 dollar for this miniature, considering it's "price" I can´t understand it.

That's a silly rebuttal, and you'll note that the Studio doesn't use it. If you sell a premium product, it is not unreasonable to expect the lagnappe to be of similar quality. It's simply bizarre to have a part of a package deal be of lesser quality (which you implicitly acknowledge) simply because it's not itemized separately.

I probably just don't understand. The sculpt is still better than the female industry standard at 28mm. Did people pledging not realize that the standard for their studio is larger than the 28mm size? Do people pledging not consider that 1:1 from concept to sculpt generally isn't possible?

I do feel like there are a few people, here and on their boards, that fall into that unpleasable crowd. Just get the refund since they are offering it and be done with it. Personally I like the minor changes to the model from the concept art. If I didn't however I probably wouldn't be crying foul over a single model that was a free addition but hey, I'm easy that way. Granted I haven't seen a single "free" model I don't like though so maybe that could change

It is a valid rebuttal to someone that whines about a FREE mini that is still considerably above industry standard. Also, there is not much of a difference with regard to the other minis.

If you just told us it is not to your taste... I would have understood and acapted it without further ado. The way you are now "accusing" McVey and Co I can´t accept.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Just get the refund since they are offering it and be done with it.

Exactly.

Its like Ive said all along, I occasionally get annoyed about things, we all do. But its generally actually important things.. you know.. that actually effect the world? Wars, economics, Islamonazi's attacking an embassy and murdering people.. but the hobby?!

I dislike all kinds of things about the hobby, so its forgotten, because its just a hobby. I don't make a blog about how much I dislike Twilight, or Nickelback, or stamp collectors. Or make an inflammatory thread about Jervis Johnsons beard. I just don't get tumultuous nerd-rage about an almost totally inconsequential thing like a painting hobby.

If you want to cancel your pledge to McVey, knock yourself out.. but don't bore the fething tits off everyone by VENTING about it on dakka.

To steal Nikes slogan, just do it.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I probably just don't understand. The sculpt is still better than the female industry standard at 28mm. Did people pledging not realize that the standard for their studio is larger than the 28mm size? Do people pledging not consider that 1:1 from concept to sculpt generally isn't possible?

The problem though is that that isn't the issue. It's not a question of "there is loss from concept to model", it's that the first concepts were faithfully transferred.

The 3rd mini isn't bad, it's just noticeably not up to the standard set by the preciously previewed pieces. One big reason seems to be that they aren't done by the same guy. Which seems a pretty obvious reason.

Hey, I don't have a dog in this hunt. But yeah, I would agree, if you pledged on the strength of the concept art, proceed from here with the understanding that there will be pretty big variations in how that is interpreted.

What's wrong with her face? Is it bad because she isn't white any more? I don't get it.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I probably just don't understand. The sculpt is still better than the female industry standard at 28mm. Did people pledging not realize that the standard for their studio is larger than the 28mm size? Do people pledging not consider that 1:1 from concept to sculpt generally isn't possible?

I agree that the sculpt is decent. Yes, I realize that they normally do larger minis. Yes, I understand that 1:1 from concept to sculpt isn't generally possible.

I'm not a fan of the way this specific mini made it from concept to sculpt. The body is fine. I've bolded that because people seem to think I'm (and others) are getting hung up with "It's more realistic proportions". I'm not.

I don't care for the face.

I do feel like there are a few people, here and on their boards, that fall into that unpleasable crowd. Just get the refund since they are offering it and be done with it. Personally I like the minor changes to the model from the concept art. If I didn't however I probably wouldn't be crying foul over a single model that was a free addition but hey, I'm easy that way. Granted I haven't seen a single "free" model I don't like though so maybe that could change

a) It's not free - I had to pledge for the kickstarter. If they hadn't made the money they did and I was complaining about a different model that was integral to the set would it somehow be more valid?
b) I'm not going to cancel my pledge over this mini. As I've said there's a specific set that I'd like to see. If they don't live up to my expectations of being similar (note: not the same) to the concept art and overall high quality then I'll cancel my pledge and take the refund.

Why is it such a big deal to pay for a service, be displeased at the outcome, and wonder if you can get your money back?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What's wrong with her face? Is it bad because she isn't white any more? I don't get it.

No, it's not that at all.
I just don't care for the way it came out. It's hard to explain because taste is so subjective but... I just really dislike it. And apparently I'm not the only one.

@rigeld2

But it is free. The kickstarter did not originally include this model. The original biohazard set didn't even have this on the horizon. Ergo, it was above and beyond the original offering for no additional expense from you. So, free.

I understand your issue is with the face. For me I actually like the face more on the body as a slimmer face wouldn't have matched up as well I think. But that's opinion and you're totally entitled to yours.

I don't think it's a big deal to be displeased with a service and ask for a refund. I do think it's a bit hyperbole to do it over 1 model of over 100. But that's me

I think people should state their dislike or opinion on it once and leave it alone. And other people should be mature enough to accept that opinion.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What's wrong with her face? Is it bad because she isn't white any more? I don't get it.

Does this help? The problem is that the shape of the jaw, the size of the lips and the shape of the area between the chin and the lips are more like a man's face and less like a woman's face.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What's wrong with her face? Is it bad because she isn't white any more? I don't get it.

It is mainly the difference between the concept art and the preview sculpt.

No one has brought up your particular point that I'm aware of though - so throwing that particular grenade into the room is a little much...

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What's wrong with her face? Is it bad because she isn't white any more? I don't get it.

Wow. Way to be a troll.

<rant>

And to those wanting to take back their pledge because a sculpt or two isn't an example of McVey's best works, get over it. You're getting a money's arse-tonn of figures for a boardgame that you wouldn't have gotten had you waited to buy this via a retailer. Also, you're getting these figures in plastic which make them easy to work with or convert for other projects.

This project is still one of the very best I've seen on Kickstarter and despite the high heels and not so feminine face, I'm still more than happy to be receiving this figure in the collection. I don't like many of the sculpts that Mantic does yet I still supported their Kickstarter and most certainly won't be whining and demanding my money back the first time one of their figures doesn't quite match the drawings they posted. You want bad miniatures? Go dig up your father's old Grenadier half-ork warriors from the early 80s AD&D game line. Man, those things were total trash. But I digress.

This game and the figures are amazing, people. You get a hell of a lot for not a great amount of money, too. I suggest you haters and trolls get over yourselves and wish team McVey success in their project like I do. It's the best way to encourage them to try this again in the future and bring more great models to the market. And in the end, that's what we really want, isn't it?

</rant>

I now return you to your previously derailed Dakka discussion.

 Hulksmash wrote:
@rigeld2

But it is free. The kickstarter did not originally include this model. The original biohazard set didn't even have this on the horizon. Ergo, it was above and beyond the original offering for no additional expense from you. So, free.

That is nonsense. I'll put it this way: there are somewhere between fifteen and twenty-four Samaritans in the Biohazard set. If all beyond the first twelve were miscast, it would not be reasonable to say "Well, they were free so suck it up." Once Studio McVey made them a part of what was being offered at the Biohazard level, they were just as obligated to supply the new ones as the originals.

The concept art for Iron Lily, and the expectation that the sculpt would be of the quality associated with Studio McVey, is what pushed the Biohazard set from "not worth the money" over to "worth the money" for me. There is no excuse, morally or legally, for saying any part of the package doesn't count because it was not part of the initial offering.

Maybe if you think Jude Law is a masculine-looking man, I guess. It really doesn't look masculine to me. The chin might be deeper, but it is not "square" and neither is the jaw.

She looks a little like Rae Dawn Chong with Gwineth Paltrow's chin to me.

 Alpharius wrote:

It is mainly the difference between the concept art and the preview sculpt.

No one has brought up your particular point that I'm aware of though - so throwing that particular grenade into the room is a little much...

I could have sworn someone had. They were talking about the size of the lips and the shaped of the face in such a way that it made it clear what they meant. Maybe it was on another forum.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:I would understand your whining better if you would have payed 10-20 dollar for this miniature, considering it's "price" I can´t understand it.

Duncan_Idaho wrote:It is a valid rebuttal to someone that whines about a FREE mini that is still considerably above industry standard. Also, there is not much of a difference with regard to the other minis.

If you just told us it is not to your taste... I would have understood and acapted it without further ado. The way you are now "accusing" McVey and Co I can´t accept.

It's silly. If someone pledged because of the game, and only the game, then it's "free". If they pledged because the concept art captured their interest, then it's part of a package.

Also, what kind of a defense is "considerably above industry standard" (an assessment totally personal, of course)? This is a premium product from a studio that prides itself on excellence.

Like I've pointed out above, this is the peril of Kickstarter: it creates an atmosphere of expectations that cannot always be met, but which leaves people in a precarious situation. Most people seem to think that they cannot cancel their pledge at this point, and there is very little information out there letting them know that's not true. If not for a guy I happen to know, I wouldn't have know it was possible.

It doesn't seem possible to deny that some people that pledged, pledged because of items that existed only as concept art. They have flat out said so in this thread. If the realization of that concept isn't equal to their expectation, then they have a right to be upset.

It's their money. Money that went into someone else's pocket months ago, and only now are they finding out the product they paid for won't be what they expected. If the argument is that their expectations were unreasonable, it's an argument, but it goes nowhere; the reasonableness of someone's expectations of a product have no real bearing on their happiness with those expectations being met.

As I said above, it seems to be a problem, really most associated with the first batch of really big Kickstarters that blew up huge. The manufacturers had to scramble to get material up to feed the beast, and now people who have had their money gone and seeing that concept actually translates into.

It's a fascinating thing to ponder: imagine going into a restaurant and the chef saying "I never made this before, but it's X in the style of Y, interested?" In the end it's about two things, the faith you have in the chef, and your interest in the idea.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
@rigeld2

But it is free. The kickstarter did not originally include this model. The original biohazard set didn't even have this on the horizon. Ergo, it was above and beyond the original offering for no additional expense from you. So, free.

That is nonsense. I'll put it this way: there are somewhere between fifteen and twenty-four Samaritans in the Biohazard set. If all beyond the first twelve were miscast, it would not be reasonable to say "Well, they were free so suck it up." Once Studio McVey made them a part of what was being offered at the Biohazard level, they were just as obligated to supply the new ones as the originals.

This is actually nonsense. Your taking two completely different things and saying it's the same. A miscast would be a damaged model and would need to be replaced. But you know what the original models look like. Thanks to the pictures provided in the kickstarter. All the original models sculpts were presented so you knew what you were purchasing. It's a different issue that a model that is not integral to the game (i.e. not being sold outside of the kickstarter) doesn't match concept art for a free addition as a thank you for supporting the game.

I hope you can see the difference. Now, if only art had been presented for the contents of the original biohazard level and it didn't match the concept art in a way you approved then that's an understandable reason to pull your support. But that's not the case in the slightest.

**Edit**

If that single model is the reason you thought the purchase was worth it then by all means pull your support as it now no longer is. Again I can understand that but to me everything above the initail biohazard level is a thank you for your support which probably colors my impression of the whole thing

You are arguing from the position that Samaritans 13+ are valued at $0, that they are free because they were not part of the initial offer.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
What's wrong with her face? Is it bad because she isn't white any more? I don't get it.

Is it time to post the gif?

 Hulksmash wrote:
If that single model is the reason you thought the purchase was worth it then by all means pull your support as it now no longer is. Again I can understand that but to me everything above the initail biohazard level is a thank you for your support which probably colors my impression of the whole thing

One important thing to bare in mind here: if you pledged because of the various concept art pieces, it was confirmed (then Yezhov'd) that they were farmed out to multiple artists. So there will be some differences in style and interpretation.

For what my opinion worth.

1) Its not a "free" model the pledge level that achieved her and all the previous before it costed money, so collectively the model was payed for.

2) The model is generally good, the face has problems, is it enough to cancel the game? No, should it be mentioned and action be taken? I think yes, it downgrades the overall feeling of quality and standards Studio McVey has established for itself, of course the complete package will decide it, not a single model, so even if left as is if everything else turns out stellar, she will be "that odd model"

3) I think its illogical to compare a 2012 sculpt coming form a studio that has established itself for its high quality models to what mass production companies did in the 80s-90s.

To conclude, its a decent sculpt with obvious flaws and good parts, it would pass maybe unnoticed or even with some praise for some companies, but not in Studio McVey with the reputation they have established for themselves, the expectations from them are above "average" and "decent".

Now its up to them for what they will do, if they change it to better fine, if they do not, fine again, but will set a precedent.

Damn this thread is really hot now Both with the new Mcvey lted star wars cool thing that I must buy but dont have money for it and also the discussion...

As for the mini quality are you guys kidding me? The sculpt is techically freaking awesome sauce! It may not be to your tastes but hell if this is not a superb sculpt.

I would have to agree the face is not the best it could be, not bad, but definitely could be better.

Of course, more pics would be nice.

 Hulksmash wrote:
I don't think it's a big deal to be displeased with a service and ask for a refund. I do think it's a bit hyperbole to do it over 1 model of over 100. But that's me

I've said I'm not doing it on one model out of over 100.
I've said that "This sculpt displeases me. I hope the quality gets better by the time they do the ones I really want."

One bad sculpt? I don't care. Multiple bad sculpts, especially including the ones that are the only reason I jumped into the kickstarter? I'll take my money, thanks.

I do love the crabs... those are awesome.

I don't see how this miniature can make anyone wanting a refund... I mean the quality is really there for anyone looking at minis from a professional perspective... if you look at the mini and want it to fill EXACTLY what you have in your mind for it then well good luck with that.

Also concept sketches and 3d sculpts are different things and glad they are.

 AlexHolker wrote:
You are arguing from the position that Samaritans 13+ are valued at $0, that they are free because they were not part of the initial offer.

You're intentionally taking something out of context. I'm arguing in regards to quality of the sculpts. You threw up an argument about the actual casted quality of a model. If the models you receive, any of them, is disfigured or miscast you're entitled to a replacement as that is part of what is being sent out. If a model isn't a pretty as you want it to be you're not entitled to have the whole thing resculpted to your pleasure. See, two different things that you're trying to combine to look smart.

So to summarize for you Alexholker the additional model is free as it was not included in the original deal. However, any models now being sent out you are entitled to thanks to your participation. Should any of those models be damaged or poorly cast. you're entitled to a replacement per whatever policy Studio McVey moves forward with. But that doesn't mean you have the right to demand a resculpt or throw a fit because it doesn't match your image entirely when even cursory review of how Studio McVey operates would have shown you they farm out sculpting to several sources.

However, like I said before, if this one model was the tipping point for you then drop it. But don't demand something be done about a model that only a few (granted vocal few) people seem to dislike.

@Rigeld2

I probably should have been more clear, that portion was not to you individually it was more of a blanket statement. Sorry man

Wow, this 'argument' still going? I think this post sums it up:

 mattyrm wrote:

If you want to cancel your pledge to McVey, knock yourself out.. but don't bore the fething tits off everyone by VENTING about it on dakka.

To steal Nikes slogan, just do it.

Now, my attempt to get this horribly derailed thread back on track, some more piccies of the stunning vanguard trooper on a jetbike for those that missed it amongst the moribund posts.

 Hulksmash wrote:

@Rigeld2

I probably should have been more clear, that portion was not to you individually it was more of a blanket statement. Sorry man

Whoa, whoa ... guys .... step into your respective corners and give the rage a rest, please.

I think it's abundantly clear to everyone here that there are two opposing perspectives but name-calling and being argumentative is not doing anything to make your points heard.

Sort of seems like the same thing that the McVey's got honked-off about on their forums, no ?

Anyway, I don't think anyone has mentioned that we're looking at an enlarged 2D photo image and the finished model's face will only be the size of a small ladybug when it finally gets into our hands.

Really? All this back-and-forth for something that won't be nearly as noticable at it's produced scale ?...

tbh looking at the concept and the sculpt the jaw is the same ..i think the jaw liiks off to some people as the sculpter has changed the eye brows on the concept they are straight wheres on the mini they are rounded and it makes the jaw look stronger ....

im really likeing the jet bike shame i cant affored a unit of them :[

Plus black and white line drawing vs 3D model with shadows

yeah ! and non 28mm scaled pic vs a 28mm sculpt lol

You might be right, you might be wrong, I call for pics from more angles.

That jetbike- Wow. Really, really sweet... but probably not a multi-part rider that would look good as a unit of several, though?

Probably not no. It is confirmed that it is the same scale as the SW figures right? I would buy one but Dreamforge is soaking up all my figure funds for the moment!

I can understand why people would be upset about the fig. I too got in based on the previous quality of the Studio McVey figs and expected figures of comparable quality. The figure isn't bad, but I would have not been too excited if that had been shown off. Still, wait till a painted version gets out and then see what you think. We all get excited about the McVey figs, but all of them are shown off painted.

 Commander Cain wrote:
Probably not no. It is confirmed that it is the same scale as the SW figures right? I would buy one but Dreamforge is soaking up all my figure funds for the moment!

I asked and Ali said the SW stuff might be a tiny bit smaller. The previous LE minis (like the Kara's) are a little bigger than the SW stuff, however, she was done quite some time before SW so they might have adapted the new model. Anyway, as she's mounted on a jetbike and no-one will be standing directly next to her, I think you wouldn't really notice.

I love how as usual, only select individuals are given warnings/bans while the prime offenders in the topic remain unpunished despite offensive and harmful rhetoric.

Typical Dakka!

Most of the time you won't know a warning has been issued, starwarslegacy- it's done privately with the poster in question (unless a public warning is needed, etc).

Speaking of which, we are probably getting near that point now...

starwarslegacy wrote:
I love how as usual, only select individuals are given warnings/bans while the prime offenders in the topic remain unpunished despite offensive and harmful rhetoric.

Typical Dakka!

As usual, 99% of disciplinary action is private, and as usual, a few people (usually people who've brokent the rules themselves) believe that because they don't see a thing, it doesn't exist.

SO much RAEG in this thread.

It's delicious.

I'd use a different word to describe it.

Seems Kickstarter brings out everyone's inner Hulk.

It's a game guys. Get over it.

 zedmeister wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Is there a time frame/plan to make Sedition Wars a 'real' tabletop wargame?

I seem to remember reading that their current plan is for the main board game and then a firebrand v bounty hunters expansion for Q1/2 next year. A second expansion for the alien race that created the strain to follow. If those all sell well, then they may produce a skirmish game (my emphasis). Mostly plucked from my memory - reliability usually alright, but occasionally fuzzy!

There's also plenty of rulesets that are usable in the meantime if you want to do some SW Tabletop gaming.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wow. This thread got interesting since I last looked at it. Me? I'm disappointed in the head, probably moreso since the rest of the figure looks great (to me), but as stated, it's going to be much smaller "in the flesh". Having said that, I don't know how good or not the game will be as I've not played it yet (someone called it a "great game" above), but I'm getting an absolute shirtload of rather good Kev White sci-fi miniatures for a very reasonable price. As well as a game I can use them for, and hopefully enjoy.

Some good posts by Buzzsaw as well, throughout. kudos.

The thread is disintegrating into another zombiecide-type catastrophe, maybe not on the same scale but soon enough I can see complete chaos erupting!

The only Zombiecide catastrophe was the damn Tshirts being too small!

This is a storm in a tea cup. I look forward to my import duty free Studio McVey goodies. As you were.

My shirt was the right size....but I also don't see an issue with the sculpt either.

That sculpt looks about right.

I honestly do not see the issue that would kick up such a gakstorm. Is it really worth cancelling a pledge over? We have seen most of the sculpts for the game, those there were for the extras, if you don't want them, just put a pricetag on them and put them in the swap bin.


And on that other point, I would easily run you over the coals and impale someone if they deserved it, but in this case, for the basis of a disagreement of a mini? No. I'm not seeing the reason to pee on your leg over it. Thats kinda getting out of the topic of the conversation.


Point 1. Are we getting the same thing we pledged for? As far as I can see, yes. The guys have no paint on them, if you "Don't like the jawline... etc.etc." thats more of a personal issue. I don't see it worth going into overdrive, especially when we are seeing the onset of a whole new tabletop game.

Point 2. How do these miniatures stack up to other companies, such as Mantic, Reaper, GW, heh heh, even Mongoose? Are they on par with Infinity/ Corvus Bell? How about other compnaies- are these minis better or worse in sculpt?


For the record about these minis from Studio McVey, I like what I see. They are not going to go down on every little detail, or they would never have a release. What they have shown is on par with what is to be expected. If you have some sort of overinflated sense of what YOU think they should be, by all means, go make some minis and call it a day.

I like the stuff, and do not see the issues. Am I missing something that someone else is pointing out? I don't see the rqage candy, either.


What am I missing in this picture? ( Wheres Waldo?)

Waldo is on the top right corner behind the two men disagreeing.

What you miss is the fundamental cornerstone of our civilization, we do not see things the same way and we either discuss to a mutual agreement or disagree.

So some people are fine with the sculpt as is and do not try to understand people that have an issue with the sculpt, people that have an issue with the sculpt are puzzled and try to explain why they think the sculpt has an issue, no mater how small that may be and why it is important 9for them), sides do not agree and lines are drawn, typical disagreement scenario.

Personally I disagree that
The model is free
The model is perfect
The model is up to the standard Studio McVey and Sedition Wars line has made us expect from them

personally I agree that
The flaw is minor
That it might be an issue of the picture angle, after all the model is not postured straight as in the artwork, but is slightly bending forward
It is not a deal breaking issue
I would not cancel my pledge for that (but whoever did more power to him, I do not understand it, but ok)

If you buy a whole scad of models, without really knowing what they are going to look like, and then get buttsore when they don't look exactly how they do in your mind, maybe Kickstarter isn't the way you should be buying models?

Model looks good. IMO if this model was just released without concept art ever been shown of it and the first thing people saw was the model it would have received high praise. The concept art just skewed the expectations of her

 whalemusic360 wrote:
If you buy a whole scad of models, without really knowing what they are going to look like, and then get buttsore when they don't look exactly how they do in your mind, maybe Kickstarter isn't the way you should be buying models?

That's one way of putting it, of course.

It is also extremely valid to post criticism of models that are finally getting previewed - I mean, if you backed the project, you do have a stake and a voice.

Constructive criticism is more than OK - and it really should be expected.

As long as things stay level and polite, there really isn't any harm in it at all.

 scipio.au wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Is there a time frame/plan to make Sedition Wars a 'real' tabletop wargame?

I seem to remember reading that their current plan is for the main board game and then a firebrand v bounty hunters expansion for Q1/2 next year. A second expansion for the alien race that created the strain to follow. If those all sell well, then they may produce a skirmish game (my emphasis). Mostly plucked from my memory - reliability usually alright, but occasionally fuzzy!

There's also plenty of rulesets that are usable in the meantime if you want to do some SW Tabletop gaming.

Indeed. Part of the reason I invested was cause they'll be awesome for Tomorrow's War.

 whalemusic360 wrote:
If you buy a whole scad of models, without really knowing what they are going to look like, and then get buttsore when they don't look exactly how they do in your mind, maybe Kickstarter isn't the way you should be buying models?

maybe and maybe not.

CMON runs the kickstarter as a prerelease/ initial funding event, the backers are in for the better than RRP deal, so its a theoretical win/ win situation, backers get a better deal than those that wait for later and the game can be delivered as a better game because of the extra initial funding, for example upgrading the paper counters to plastic.

The bad side of it is for the backers buying a sight unseen product, for example in sedition wars, not a single model seen was from the ones made plastic, everybody took a jump of faith in the "dark" I say "dark" because our pledges and expectations are based on the companies previous record Studio McVey has established itself with quality and when I pledged I expected to receive a similar quality to their already published models (minus the problems plastic has).

Personally, if they fail to deliver on the expectations they established it will be a double loss, one for those pledged expecting the top quality Studio McVey has established and one for the Studio McVey for not standing up to its level.
The above may seem dramatic and probably are, we are nitpicking here for a bad jawline that makes an otherwise great model looking meh, but it is an indicator on how high Studio McVey standards are set in their customers minds.

 whalemusic360 wrote:
If you buy a whole scad of models, without really knowing what they are going to look like, and then get buttsore when they don't look exactly how they do in your mind, maybe Kickstarter isn't the way you should be buying models?

I await the Mantic KoW thread's rebirth with a bucket of popcorn....

 scipio.au wrote:

 whalemusic360 wrote:
If you buy a whole scad of models, without really knowing what they are going to look like, and then get buttsore when they don't look exactly how they do in your mind, maybe Kickstarter isn't the way you should be buying models?

I await the Mantic KoW thread's rebirth with a bucket of popcorn....

Good point - that one might make all the other 'concept sketches are ≠ to actual model" discussions look like minor problems indeed!

 Alpharius wrote:

 scipio.au wrote:

 whalemusic360 wrote:
If you buy a whole scad of models, without really knowing what they are going to look like, and then get buttsore when they don't look exactly how they do in your mind, maybe Kickstarter isn't the way you should be buying models?

I await the Mantic KoW thread's rebirth with a bucket of popcorn....

Good point - that one might make all the other 'concept sketches are ≠ to actual model" discussions look like minor problems indeed!

I imagine there will be a lot of well-thought, constructive criticism and a measured, civil response.

 Alpharius wrote:

 scipio.au wrote:

 whalemusic360 wrote:
If you buy a whole scad of models, without really knowing what they are going to look like, and then get buttsore when they don't look exactly how they do in your mind, maybe Kickstarter isn't the way you should be buying models?

I await the Mantic KoW thread's rebirth with a bucket of popcorn....

Good point - that one might make all the other 'concept sketches are ≠ to actual model" discussions look like minor problems indeed!

Mantic wrote:....well shucks! Did we not mention these would be in paper mâché?

yeah,

NAVARRO wrote:... The sculpt is techically freaking awesome sauce! It may not be to your tastes but hell if this is not a superb sculpt.

I concur, the mini is great.

H.B.M.C. wrote:..Seems Kickstarter brings out everyone's inner Hulk...

notprop wrote:.. This is a storm in a tea cup. I look forward to my import duty free Studio McVey goodies. As you were.

I wonder if it's something to do with paying up front makes us behave differently. I lost the plot when CMON started selling copies of Zombicide at gencon before they shipped me my prepaid copy??
A CMON Zombicide KS refund calmed me right down...

Anyway if Jadas face make you feel sick and you can't imagine allowing it in your home Or you think you might loses control over your inner KS rage monster, one email to CMON and they will refund you your pledge in full in double quick time..

I'm holding on to my kickstarter pledge though as this game still looks amazing!

Mantic wrote:....well shucks! Did we not mention these would be in paper mâché?

lolz

Panic...

I think it is more a "the face is not in line with the rest of the model's quality and overall quality of SW, I would rather point it out now that it is still a sculpt and not a mold and benefit everybody" than a 'WHAT RAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH rage quit" situation, there are many shades of gray in this world, not just white and black.

Technically speaking Jadas sculpt is ranking among the really good 28mm minis available right now. She is different from the drawing but since the drawing is more in the pret-a-porter style that was to be expected.

We are talking here about a matter or PERSONAL TASTE. The sculpt is high-quality and if you deny this you better cough up some green-stuff and wire and present us some better sculpt.

Acutally I like the way she turned out, generally I am turned off by spindly looking supermodels...
And she now looks like someone that can lift a wrench without breaking one of her artificial fingernails...

Oh, and there are quite some femals out there that look like her, I wonder what they would do if they heard some of the above comments (more of a male face, distorted face,....)...

 Panic wrote:
I wonder if it's something to do with paying up front makes us behave differently. I lost the plot when CMON started selling copies of Zombicide at gencon before they shipped me my prepaid copy??
Panic...

Absolutely it does. It's because we're not only paying up front, but doing so months and months in advance. On top of that, we're paying for things that are often nothing more than concept art. Very loose concept art in some cases...

Technically, because she overall is a really good sculpt that's why the detail been discussed the jaw is in line of discuss and attention, if it was a bad sculpt overall I would not bother, or say something along the lines that if McVey accepted this I would be severely disappointed by them.

I find your counter argument flawed and childish to a point, "make yourself a better one" is exactly that, I do not need to be a better sculptor to point out a flaw as I do not need to be a better architect to point out a feature in a building was poorly thought, or needing to be a builder to point out a wall with the floor are not a 90 degree angle, please at least for me refrain from doing so bad counter arguments.

Likewise, I know there are females in the world with wide jawline, wide, not square jawline, she at least from this angle looks like she has a square jawline, characteristic of male jaw, not female.

In any case, I do not think people complained about the differences between the concept art, like posture, wrench size, or other minute differences like the caps size, but on two points, that the jaw is square and manlike and the lips are too big/ not well formed.

I honestly do not get what you do not get from people pointing out a flaw in an overall good miniature?

The jaw is not square. The chin is a point and there is no visible corner under the ear. She has a Rebecca Romijn Stamos jaw, not Kurt Russel's.

I just don't understand all the fuss. The face is as good as the Ridley sculpt (which I'm less of a fan of) and the face on the jet bike girl. It's a high quality sculpt that some people like and other don't. For me it is in line with the quality that McVey produces (high) and they've often looked like this (in my opinion) before paint has been applied.

I'm just looking forward to what they produce next. So far I am very impressed and which I'd put in for the Serentiy crew as well.

On the Zombicide/Gencon thing. As long as CMON made good on their September promise, which they did and I got a high quality game to play, which I did. I couldn't care less about some folks at GENCON paying more for less product and getting it a little earlier. I didn't like paying the extra at customs - but that's just because I'm tight.

Cheers Laney

It it just me or has this thread turned into a bunch of argumentative posts that I have to gloss over to find any sort of quality info.

To feel like part of the conversation: Jada was not even shown when I made my pledge, or half the ending special edition models, for that matter. You see, I did this weird thing where i bought into the Kickstarter because I liked the fact that I was getting a ton of models for a game with a play style that can replace my copy of Space Hulk, because neither myself or my friends like playing it.

My god, Jada's not even a model that had to be bought separately, so it has no bearing on my buying a game for an excellent deal versus it's retail price, with loads of extra models- the kicker of which for me was the fact that I get tons of extras of the actual base game models.

Indeed, the last few pages contain nothing but arguments. Time to stop I think!

Aye I hope they release pictures of something new, just to make it stop!

Keep opening this thread to see just that, and instead it is more discussion about if the woman mechanic's face looks too fat..

Pessimistic side of me says that this will roll out into more arguments over the rules once the boxes start turning and people start playing it.

The optimistic side says that people will enjoy the game coming from a legend of the gaming world.

The argument only continues as long as people keep bringing it up. If you want to talk about something else... talk about something else!

 RiTides wrote:
The argument only continues as long as people keep bringing it up. If you want to talk about something else... talk about something else!

Exactly!

Complaining about people complaining only serves to continue and prolong... the complaining!

New topic for discussion...should the upcoming expansions be kickstarted as well or just released like a normal product? Basic Firebrand models already exist (some even in the last KS) but I'd like the opportunity to be involved in a another KS where we might get some new LE models. Think they'll do it again?

 coyotius wrote:
New topic for discussion...should the upcoming expansions be kickstarted as well or just released like a normal product? Basic Firebrand models already exist (some even in the last KS) but I'd like the opportunity to be involved in a another KS where we might get some new LE models. Think they'll do it again?

I don’t think that they will do a Kickstarter for the expansion. A Kickstarter is to test the interest in an idea and achieve funding for the initial product, while they already know that there is a lot of interest in the expansion and will likely not have much trouble releasing since the first game was so successful.

As we've seen, and possibly despite what's written into KS' 'bylaws', Kickstarters can be for... anything.

So, yes, I do expect CMON and Studio McVey to continue the trend.

Seen other companies already doing that, I see no reason why they could not do it, it would definitely speed up the production of molds.

@alpharius: That's what I'm thinking too. Also, Kickstarters seem to generate more of a "buying frenzy" then normal releases.

Mike McVey has said the next Sedition Wars project

(probably the Firebrand/Bounty Hunter expansion, intended to be smaller than SW in scope)

will go down the traditional retail route and NOT come via KS. This is in part to keep traditional retailers on board, and presumably partly as they feel the brand will be strong enough to carry it.

Whether this means all future SW stuff will do the same ? I guess it depends on how well things sell, and how expensive the project after that is to put out

Perhaps if (!) they make it into a real skirmish game at some stage, they'll do another one to finance the cost of making things like that LE jetbike and other big things (there's still the second part of Kara's Last Stand missing ) up front.

But if I had to bet, I'd bet that there won't be any other Kickstarters, as with the franchise established, it would be quite easy to expand it one at a time and then just publish a rulebook for a skirmish system.

I would also think that since they made a boat-load of money via this kickstarter, that they wouldn't need another one to make expansions, particularly as they start to sell Sedition Wars itself.

And last I checked, kickstarter is not a pre-order mechanism. You're putting your money behind a product that you like and want to support. Anything that comes along with it (a game, stretch goals, etc.) are icing on the cake, they're not required.

Companies that put projects up via KS or Indiegogo owe us jack squat. So any concept drawings, test sculpts, product, whatever are totally at their discretion.

And I am a KS supporter of this project.

Again, Kickstarter is whatever the project creator wants it to be.

Since it is Crowd Funded though, well, only the best will survive!

I prefer to see some stuff just go through normal retail channels. Sure, a KS (often) gets us a pile of extras, but at the same time, it is used as a glorified preorder machanism, and paying for too much stuff way before it's released or even produced is becoming tiresome - and taking away from stuff I'd be buying "off the shelf" right now.

Someone over at the SW forum interviewed Mike about the future expansion and any kickstarters. Mike said he did not want to alienate LGS and will not have another KS, at least in the foreseeable future or with the boardgame aspect.

Mike mentioned that if all went well, he would like to have a skirmish set of rules for SW, depending on the size of the book and amount of art, could see that being a potential kickstarter.

Also, you need to carefully time your Kickstarter. For my taste there are too many out there right now and they are cannibalizing each other. Thus I keep my wallet locked.

 scipio.au wrote:
I prefer to see some stuff just go through normal retail channels. Sure, a KS (often) gets us a pile of extras, but at the same time, it is used as a glorified preorder machanism, and paying for too much stuff way before it's released or even produced is becoming tiresome - and taking away from stuff I'd be buying "off the shelf" right now.

I haven't seen a successful Kickstarter yet where we paid too much for the stuff!

Too early? Maybe...

Too much? Nope!

Re-read, Alph. I said paying for too much stuff, not paying too much for stuff.

Ah - sorry.

But still, paying for too much stuff?

Huh? (Insert "Not Sure if Serious." picture here)

 Alpharius wrote:
Ah - sorry.

But still, paying for too much stuff?

Huh? (Insert "Not Sure if Serious." picture here)

I can see where he's coming from. Look at the Relic Knights thread and how many posts are "There's not enough stuff!". But how much extra stuff should be thrown on before you're getting more than you'll ever need or want? Personally, I resisted the Reaper KS for that exact reason. Yes, you got a ton of models, but there were only about 4-5 I actually wanted, so saw no need to spend the money to get 100+ I didn't and will never need. Could I sell them off later? Probably, but that's a hassle and I'd rather just buy the few I want when they're released at retail later than break my wallet just because "Hey, look how many you get, what a deal!"

I definitely see the point when it comes to the Reaper Kickstarter, but not the Sedition Wars or Relic Knights Kickstarters - those two were more 'cohesive' and 'compact'.

Plus, on RK, if you only wanted one or two factions, you still got the additional minis for the base sets, plus the add ons 'got better' over time...

Of course, both of those have essentially 'raised the bar' for KS expectations, for better or worse.

The Zzor MVP is AWESOME* I wish the rest of the Zzor looked as cool. He really exemplifies the weird-arse alien rather than 'man in a suit'.



*Yes, so awesome that I was legally required to use CAPS.

 Souleater wrote:
The Zzor MVP is AWESOME* I wish the rest of the Zzor looked as cool. He really exemplifies the weird-arse alien rather than 'man in a suit'.



*Yes, so awesome that I was legally required to use CAPS.

I think you may have got the wrong thread there dude...

Basically, I've been buying as bit too much of this stuff.

 Alpharius wrote:
Ah - sorry.

But still, paying for too much stuff?

Huh? (Insert "Not Sure if Serious." picture here)

In a way, it's a bit like the Costco Phenomenon (for those that are unfamiliar, Costco is a warehouse store that sells discounted premium products in bulk): when presented with such tremendous deals, people have a tendency to stop thinking in terms of what they really need, and instead simply buy-buy-buy. This is exacerbated by the fact that at Costco, you need to buy in (with a membership) to access the bargains.

In a way, this is can analogous to the "sweet spot" pledge level most Kickstarters have in order to get access to the "big bargains", the kickstarter exclusives.

People always want to feel that they are getting a deal, and sometimes that overcomes the first question they need to ask themselves "is this something I actually have use for?"

I know personally I got caught up in the hype on SW initially; when the not-Riddick was put up, I was thrilled (don't laugh, I like those movies...), and I was pledging a bunch of money... then I actually looked at what was coming. I wasn't at all likely to play the game (for a variety of reasons), so I would be buying it for the cheap, abundant models. But putting aside how cheap they were, did I actually like them? Like throwing a bag of frozen fish fillets in your shopping cart because it's such a great bargain, only to later remember you don't like fish even when it's cheap, I looked at the models and said to myself "WTH would I do with that?"

When the answer came back "probably nothing", I realized it was time to drag that fish back to the counter. Interestingly this is again like a Costco, where returns are easy, because they know that the lure of bargains is made even stronger when people don't feel they are getting stuck with bad purchases. Of course, the more comfortable people are with purchases, the less they are to examine them critically. A profitable paradox!

This isn't a criticism of Kickstarter... or Costco, actually (I enjoy both). It's just something I've noticed as Kickstarter has blown up over this summer, generally by offering "more, more, more!", and people have become conditioned to ask "why should I get this now, rather then wait for it to come retail? Is it a good deal?"

I too like Costco and the Riddick movies.

I also don't think it is unreasonable for people to expect something 'extra' in return for pre-ordering something WAY in advance and giving companies large interest free loans that are, in fact, no way guaranteed!

 Alpharius wrote:
I too like Costco and the Riddick movies.

I also don't think it is unreasonable for people to expect something 'extra' in return for pre-ordering something WAY in advance and giving companies large interest free loans that are, in fact, no way guaranteed!

I'm not saying it's unreasonable, I'm just trying to illustrate how it can be that people find themselves buying "too many bargains".

But it's just like Costco: sometimes one comes back and is unloading the car and saying "how did I end up spending so much money?"

Everything is a good bargain (and you're completely correct that there should be a premium to entice pledging), I'm just pointing out an observed phenomenon (in the context a previous question), and suggesting an extension.

Yes, that is a good point and spot on!

I've had to force myself to NOT back some recent Kickstarters for just that reason - the dreaded "Do I REALLY need this?" self-dialogue...

I had that with Reaper and Relic Knights recently. Mostly because I'd already made the mistake with Sedition Wars. Well, at least I'll have some cool looking guardsmen

I should have had that discussion with myself.

Oh well, I will have fun trying to convince my gaming group to play Blackwater Gulch, Kings of War (although one is willing), SW (shouldn't be too hard), and dreadball.

While I wait for them to convert I can paint my dreamforge and reaper minis.

I think I have a problem.

i was in the same boat was so close to pledgeing the dreamforge kickstarter but managed to stop myself :]
i think ts the "but what if i dont pledge and i missout on stuff) brainwaves that get you as mine are expecting all kickstarters to be like zombicide and sedition wars with almost double the stuff you start with .

as for getting players for sedition wars my plan is to paint all the figs up and go to my nearest flgs and play the solo game to tease everyone lol

My wife recently put the foot down and said no more Kickstarters. I've had to let a couple slip through my fingers now, and at first it was hard as I'm fairly confident I'll pick stuff up at retail so would be saving in the long run.

However in the last few days it's become easier to resist and I'm not as concerned missing those 'bargains'. While I am extremely happy I got in on this KS while it was there I can see that I probably wouldn't have cared so much if I had found out I missed it - like the Zombicide one for example.

If it looks great I'll grab a copy at retail eventually once a few expansions get bundled in and still get close to the same value. I just will have to wait some 5-10 years lol

Yeah, the Kickstarters can get addictive. I ended up doing Zombicide, Sedition Wars, and the Reaper one. I probably would have gotten SW for retail if I hadn't done the KS, so this one I actually was saving. Zombicide I found at the end and decided that it was a great deal, and I had been looking for a zombie game for a while. I am very glad that I did pledge, because I would likely never have gotten this very fun game without it. With the Reaper Kickstarter, I initially said I wasn't going to do it, but as the deal got better and better, I eventually couldn't resist (I think the $25 extra from Sophe and the announcement of Cthulhu was when I finally gave in) and convinced myself I could make back some of the money selling off the ones I didn't want.

Luckily, CMoN didn't get any more of my money with RKs (because I hate anime) and I narrowly resisted getting some of those DF German infantry.

I keep trying to swear off them, but there almost always seems to be one that ticks a "must get" box of mine coming up. The three that I'm watching closely now are the Bombshell one - figures I probably would have bought via Reaper, etc, Dreadball since I love me some Blood Bowl and Speedball, and Dredd. Because. Well, Judge Dredd.

I went in on the Dreamforge one as well since I manged to get a couple of the last resin sculpts, but always liked the large ones (and never thought I'd manage to get one).

At this point though, until the masses of stuff I've paid for starts to roll in at the very least, I'm swearing off them for awhile. Which is what I said just before the Reaper one launched.

I got into a fight with KS over some of these so called "Deals".

I will not go into details, but I will put it out there that the old saying is true-
If it looks too good to be true, it usually is. CMON, I'm looking at you for that.

First issue was that Zombicide project. Second was Sedition Wars, and third was Relic Knights. Needless to say, I will not be doing business with CMON anymore.

They have a credibility issue with me at the moment.

KS does not agknowledge the problems with the funding. Basicly to them the issue is black and white, "We are not responsible for the claims made by the projects creator".

There are several of these "Deals" that are in fact... not kosher.

I decided to pull back in the funding department, until I actually start seeing projects push forward.

Indigogo is in an even worse predicament, because they take the funding up front. You may or may not hear from the project, and if you do, you have to wonder what took so long for the conversation.

In these "Projects" some of these assclowns don't even want to update the scorecard after they make bank. They get the funding, you don't hear from them again.

It makes it hard for the next guy around, to be sure.

In crowd funding, the best advice is the best- Fund those you know. Keep in contact, and don't pay money with your heart because Business is Business.

I'm not sure how much guarded comments and implications help anything. On the other hand, I'm not sure how open the mods are to specific accusations or grievances being aired.

Speaking for myself at least, I'd prefer to see specifics being mentioned so they can either be confirmed or shot down as inaccurate.

If it's about CMON's communication being poor, I guess we already know that. If it's about Zombiecide's uneven early shipping, I guess we also know about that as well. If it's about the "pledge at your own risk" aspect and Kickstarter not being responsible for the projects, we all know that as well. - or people certainly should be aware of it well upfront. Particularly any Dakkaite, since it's brought up in these threads often enough.

Your post hints at something darker or more malicious though, so if it's ok with the mods, as someone who's poured quite a bit of cash into these things, I'd like to hear specifically what's too good to be true or not kosher so I can know whether to have a real concern or not.

The message is the same as it has always been.

Caveat Emptor.

If you don't like the message, sorry, but its just going to be something you don't like.

I don't need to pee on peoples shoes that want to get in on this "Crowd Funding", but I am going to throw it out there because on several of these projects, I was not a happy camper after the fact and felt that I was cheated.

My Post is an outright warning. If you want to get down to brass tacks-

-Some of the so called Projects, hint that they only need a lower amount of cash flow to make something happen, then use the pledge to sell stuff through the KS site. Like it or not, that is the fact.
Then when they sell a bunch of stuff, the end state looks like they actually made it on the project, nothing to do with the additional sales.

-"Streach goals" are either overpriced, and gives someone the impression that they are getting something "Special" or they are being used as an excuse to set a price on a product and you get the "Option" to buy it.

I don't need to be the bearer of the obvious, but I say that I am holding what I have for these projectes based on past performance. Don't let my bad experience be the stopping point for you, but you need to go in on these not by looking at "What am I getting for my money/ Time".

My comments arn't guarded. I got peed on a couple of times, and didn't like it. ( and to me, thats being nice about it.)

CMON has an issue with thier communication. they have an issue on using thier projects to sell stuff in a way that doesn't make sense. they have an issue in thier CMON site that they either intentionally or unintentionally misquoted pricing.

The fact that KS is a new thing isn't really new though. Micro financing has been there for years. KS/ Indigogo is the new thing, because they are putting it out there in one spot.cing has been around for over t And I for one do not have an issue in giving a couple of shmoes who are doing something a few bones if they need it. MY issue is that there are some people using the KS site to sell products, in the guise of funding projects.

I applaud people for doing it as well. if it gives us more choices in gaming, I'm always good with throwing money around.

BUT

If I have an issue, I don't mind saying something about it. I'm putting money out there to grow a hobby, not just throw it around for no reason.

that specific enough for you?

I'm not the only one to say this, either.

http://www.itproportal.com/2012/09/06/kickstarter-says-failed-projects-are-not-its-problem/

http://stuffershack.com/my-problem-with-kickstarter/

http://mightygodking.com/index.php/2012/05/01/the-problem-with-kickstarter/

http://www.qj.net/pov/pc-gaming/pov-the-problem-with-kickstarter.html

http://www.gottabemobile.com/2012/07/17/only-25-of-kickstarter-projects-ship-on-time/

http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/6/27/3099051/backers-rights-what-kickstarter-funders-can-expect-when-they-pledge

.....


Caveat Emptor.

Not speaking for Dakka as a whole, but I think actually stating what the problem is rather than just hinting that there are shady goings on would be less dubious, frankly.

So long as you can provide something to back up any allegations of shady dealings, of course.


Edit: So far, Grot, you seem to be saying that these Kickstarters are dubious because they raise more money than they need, and that sales from add-ons are counted towards the project total rather than declared as separate sales.

Which doesn't seem particularly shady to me. The income would still need to be dleclared the same, so it's not as if there would be some clever tax dodge going on. And people are either going to be prepared to pay the asking price or not... whether or not the amount raised is more than needed is more or less irrelevant to that.

Not really seeing your problem so far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit Edit - I'm even more confused after checking out your links, because none of them seem to be making anything even remotely close to your point, they're all talking about different things, and one of them (despite the title) was actually saying that Kickstarter is singlehandedly reviving the RPG industry, rather than being about Kickstarter being dodgy.

Hm. No offence, but reading through your post you don't seem to be saying anything much at all. Certainly not anything new. Project goals that aren't really "targets"? KS being all about stretch goals? Stretch goals giving you the chance to spend more money? Kickstarters as a pre-order mechanism? CMON are all about getting money upfront and crappy at communication afterwards when they've got your dosh?

It's not a matter of "not liking the message" so much as seeing you point out what we all know already and have spent endless pages and posts discussing across a dozen or more threads and asking "...and?"

Might be personal then. I can see the confusion.

The point that I make is that KS isn't just "Oh, get more free stuff..."



On my end, I see it as an issue when I pledge for a project, then get told after the fact that I owe more on something, when the "Pledge manager" is the one thats wrong.

One time, yeah, sure,,,, maybe. TWO? not.

And as an add on- It is an issue, because the same designated "Option to buy" streach goal is already out there for sale? Thats not much of a goal then. it slants tword iffy/ shady dealing.

Might not be the truth to the Project , but it is a perception. and Perception is reality.

I don't say that they are dubious for making money. I'm saying in the way in which they slant to make the funding.


To me, if it is a goal, then someone is putting it out there that , We made bank, so this is extra, ( sort of a "Thanks for the help" kind of thing.) NOT just- hey we made this goal, so we are moving the goal post so you can have the option to buy this other so and so.

I mean, yes, someone has a project, thats thier project- but at what point do you think that just giving someone a chance to buy something through an alternate website, even though without postals isn't ... wierd?

Edit because your not seeing my point, it is getting lost in the mix somewhere.


"And"...


Some cats out here are not happy with the trend that is emerging with the so called, We only need 1,000 bucks. BUT we give you prices on a bunch of extra stuff that is obviously going to throw up another 20,000.00.

It kinda cheats the system, if you want to get down to it.

 Grot 6 wrote:
On my end, I see it as an issue when I pledge for a project, then get told after the fact that I owe more on something, when the "Pledge manager" is the one thats wrong.

How often has that happened? I can think of one example: the command suits for Sedition, and in that case the actual price was simply the price we were originally told whilst the KS was running, making the whole issue - to use your favourite word - moot!

Are there other examples?

 Grot 6 wrote:
And as an add on- It is an issue, because the same designated "Option to buy" streach goal is already out there for sale? Thats not much of a goal then. it slants tword iffy/ shady dealing.

How? What's 'iffy' or 'shady' about offering items in a KS that you pay extra for?

 Grot 6 wrote:
Might not be the truth to the Project , but it is a perception. and Perception is reality.

I don't see the perception you're talking about. I'm not sure where most of this is coming from.

 Grot 6 wrote:
To me, if it is a goal, then someone is putting it out there that , We made bank, so this is extra, ( sort of a "Thanks for the help" kind of thing.) NOT just- hey we made this goal, so we are moving the goal post so you can have the option to buy this other so and so.

That's not moving the goalpost. You don't have to buy any of the optional extras. It's like someone asking you "Would you like fries with that?" and you saying "No!". You're still getting what you paid for, and you're not being asked to pay more for the thing you've already paid for.

 Grot 6 wrote:
Some cats out here are not happy with the trend that is emerging with the so called, We only need 1,000 bucks. BUT we give you prices on a bunch of extra stuff that is obviously going to throw up another 20,000.00.

It kinda cheats the system, if you want to get down to it.

How? I'm failing to see the issue here at all.

We need X to make Y! You can pledge for X, but we're also offering A, B and C - the proceeds of which will go towards making X! That's win/win for everyone. The project gets funded, people get what they want, and people who wanted the extras get the extras. There's no shady goal-post moving going on.

I think Grot 6 is being a bit dramatic personally, at the end of the day, I've never seen an outright fraud or anything.. where a company takes your money and just vanishes or never mentions anything again.

Although.. I did buy a limited edition standard bearer off the bloke who does AOW when he did an Indiegogo.. and have heard feth all about it for months.

But it doesn't really matter, because he has an awful reputation anyway, so I think we all kinda expected it, several people mentioned it the day after he posted the SB.. like "Oh Felix will probably not deliver this for 2 years, at least its only $15"

Which I suppose is the point! Its a hobby. If you are spending money you cant afford to flagrantly waste, then you are stupid anyway.

So.. really.. what's the problem? Kickstarter away I say. Its not like I spend hobby money when i've got bills to pay or kids to feed. The way I see it, buying more hobby stuff via KS and Indiegogo is better than doing what I usually do with all my spare money.

Spend it on booze at the casino.

No. Overly dramatic would be in Hookers and blow.

I am just saying that this crowd funding is not the be all end all in getting stuff, and it is taking a turn,( not always for the better) based on some of the more "Successful" projects.

- MY Issue is that they are using the KS to get a gak load of money by selling items on the site. It isn't about funding anything, other then sell a few more things.

-MY Issue is that streach goals are turning it into giving the perception that you are getting something exclusive, even though they are not.

- My Issue is when a "Goal is set, it is getting to the point where someone asks for a small amount, and ends up getting more by selling stuff on the site.

- My Issue is when you put it out there that you are offering a gak load of stuff, then come back and delay on it, or misprice it... the issue is there.


I don't say that they are dubious for making money. I'm saying in the way in which they slant to make the funding.


This is how I see it. If it isn't the case, then hey- Just must be me.
"We need X to make Y! You can pledge for X(,But we really are looking to get W) SO we're also offering A, B and C ( FOR SALE ALREADY) but we will give you a chance to get it here... - the proceeds of which will go towards making Z! "

Because they already have enough for X,Y,and Z.

MY Issue is that I perceive it as shady because they are not just looking for X. They set it up as a sales gig to make Z.

I get it, We want to make money. I'm cool with that, but to do it in some ways as have been evolving is the issue.

H.B.M.C., I KNOW you don't have to buy the fries again. I am saying that if it is a goal, then give it as a goal, then. "Option to buy" is not really a goal. NOR is saying you need X when you in fact are looking for Z.


It gives the impression that they are moneygrabbing.

THEN to get into the other stuff, such as customs, tax, postals.... NOT put in the end prices....

Its in the detail on how it is being done.

Thank you for boiling it down to bullet points. Let's address them, shall we?

 Grot 6 wrote:
- MY Issue is that they are using the KS to get a gak load of money by selling items on the site. It isn't about funding anything, other then sell a few more things.

What is this based on?

Looking over all the Kickstarters I've gotten involved in, all of them had add-on's for more $$$. They were:

Zombicide - Add-ons don't yet exist. Pledged funds go towards making them.
Sedition Wars - Add-ons don't yet exist. Pledged funds go towards making them.
Reaper Bones - Add-ons don't yet exist (in plastic 'Bones' format). Pledged funds go towards making them.
Relic Knights - Add-ons don't yet exist (in plastic). Pledged funds go towards making them.
Leviathan/Crusaders - Add-ons don't yet exist. Pledged funds go towards making them.

In all five of these instances the add-ons do not currently exist, and thus any pledged funds went directly towards creating them. Is that not what KS is for?

 Grot 6 wrote:
-MY Issue is that streach goals are turning it into giving the perception that you are getting something exclusive, even though they are not.

How do you know these items aren't exclusive? What basis do you have for the assertion that they (or at least some of them, specifically the things that have been said to be exclusive) are in fact not exclusive?

 Grot 6 wrote:
- My Issue is when a "Goal is set, it is getting to the point where someone asks for a small amount, and ends up getting more by selling stuff on the site.

And the stuff they're selling, using the 5 different KS's I've been involved in, did not exist, meaning the extra money went directly towards creating those items (and the main goal). And if they get 'extra' money, what's the big deal? The extra money helps them make a profit (which is good) and also alleviates some of the shipping concerns.

Shipping concerns?

Yes, shipping concerns. I went into Zombicide with a friend and paid US$40 for shipping (I believe). The box cost them US$95 to ship to me. The 'extra money' you seem to dislike helped them pay for the huge shipping costs it takes to send something to the other side of the world. They're not taking the money and buying a second Ferrari.

 Grot 6 wrote:
- My Issue is when you put it out there that you are offering a gak load of stuff, then come back and delay on it, or misprice it... the issue is there.

And again, we'll need some examples here. I've already mentioned the (moot!) Sedition Wars one. Got any others?

I don't say that they are dubious for making money. I'm saying in the way in which they slant to make the funding.

 Grot 6 wrote:
This is how I see it. If it isn't the case, then hey- Just must be me.
"We need X to make Y! You can pledge for X(,But we really are looking to get W) SO we're also offering A, B and C ( FOR SALE ALREADY) but we will give you a chance to get it here... - the proceeds of which will go towards making Z! "

What's for sale already?

All the Bones Stuff? Yep, on sale already as metal miniatures. The Relic Knight stuff? About half of it was already on sale... as resin miniatures. Zombicide? Nothing. Sedition Wars? Nothing. Should I go on?

 Grot 6 wrote:
It gives the impression that they are moneygrabbing.

How? Where? In what way? You haven't explained yourself in a manner that makes any sense or follows any logical pattern or path. Your jumbled assertions are unsupported. It is unclear as to what you're talking about because your claims so far do not match up with the reality of the situation.

I think at this point it might be time to try to steer this thread back on topic, which is specifically about Sedition Wars.

Grot 6, if you have issues with the way Kickstarts for gaming products are being set up, and you still think you have a point to make, I would recommend taking some time to assemble your thoughts on the issue into some sort of coherent format and starting a new thread to discuss it rather than derailing this thread any further.

Edit: OT remarks redacted.

As for the kickstarter... is it November yet? :(

Wasn't it shipping soon? They said they were very near to having it read.

Anyone see any pictures of the Jada Lilly Battle Suit?

Next couple of weeks was the release date.

 Grot 6 wrote:
Anyone see any pictures of the Jada Lilly Battle Suit?

Next couple of weeks was the release date.

Wasn't the estimated date in November?

(It's mid-September)

@Grot

Release date is still november which according to my calender is still 9+ weeks away. And that is just for the core game. The additional stuff is shipping in 2013.

Are you intentionally trying to be a troll are do you just not read the dates given on the KS-website?

 Duncan_Idaho wrote:
@Grot

Release date is still november which according to my calender is still 9+ weeks away. And that is just for the core game. The additional stuff is shipping in 2013.

Are you intentionally trying to be a troll are do you just not read the dates given on the KS-website?

Must be me "intentionally" trolling, then. COuldn't be that I read through something fast and had hope that it was for September....

My Mistake for being optomistic. I read over there it was September, and it was in another place....


And Just because I have issue with some of the ways in which people are using this KS, I'm the bad guy?


!@@#$ me running.

We were... asked... to keep it on topic. You want to be that way about it, go on then.


I have my issues, but said I'd be cool. Sorry for not being an assclown over it.

I'll try harder next time and stray off target on a tangent about KSer and side track and take the conversation out to right field, next time, just for kitty cats and puppy dogs sake.

And all they said there was that the Pledge Manager was said to close on September 30th - not that packages would start being posted then. As noted by Duncan, the due date for people to receive the first part of their product is still November.

As for any vibes you might be noticing, your posting over the previous page or so may have something to do with it, but that's just a guess.

 Grot 6 wrote:
You want to call me a troll over something we already know? Go look for yourself then.

http://studiomcvey.com/forums/index.php?/topic/329-ckpm-now-live-sedition-wars-coolminiornot-kickstarter-pledge-manager-discussion/page__st__300


Whats up with the hostile vibe, moriarity?

Learn some manners before you call me a troll again.

Are you referring to the "September 30th is what was announced" part? Coz that was referring to when the pledge manager was ending not when anything was being shipped out.

Man, your links are not doing you any favours recently.

Edit: Damn, scooped by a bespeckled puddy-tat.

 Vain wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:
You want to call me a troll over something we already know? Go look for yourself then.

http://studiomcvey.com/forums/index.php?/topic/329-ckpm-now-live-sedition-wars-coolminiornot-kickstarter-pledge-manager-discussion/page__st__300


Whats up with the hostile vibe, moriarity?

Learn some manners before you call me a troll again.

Are you referring to the "September 30th is what was announced" part? Coz that was referring to when the pledge manager was ending not when anything was being shipped out.

Man, your links are not doing you any favours recently.

Edit: Damn, scooped by a bespeckled puddy-tat.

Yeah, work on that next time. Clever isn't your color.


I want to hear more about those Firebrand guys. Do they sell sets of those guys, or are they just individual sales?

Anyone buy these guys on thier own, yet? How do they come packaged?

How much is the shiping on them? ....

basicly, I want a set of these guys, are there deals in getting a few at a time?

 Grot 6 wrote:

Yeah, work on that next time. Clever isn't your color.

Is that because I couldn't find a (possibly imaginary) post stating items were being shipped out in a couple of week?

If so, clever is obviously not my colour.

If it is because I am having trouble making coherent arguments and linking random things that don't support said argument, well then you better give me some fashion tips as we obviously like to dress in the same shades.

Doesn't seem to be at this stage. This seems to be it.

http://studiomcvey.highwire.com/products/firebrand-rebellion-range

 Vain wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:

Yeah, work on that next time. Clever isn't your color.

Is that because I couldn't find a (possibly imaginary) post stating items were being shipped out in a couple of week?

If so, clever is obviously not my colour.

If it is because I am having trouble making coherent arguments and linking random things that don't support said argument, well then you better give me some fashion tips as we obviously like to dress in the same shades.

You can knock it off now. I retracted my misstate, You want to keep on, I'm in PM if you want to get funny about some randomness that has absolutly nothing to do with anything.

I'm really interested in this range, Not that you care.

I was a little overzelous there, because I saw what I wanted to see. that there was something about Septemeber. I was squared away, changed it out, and moved on.


You have an issue, PM me and stop being a mutt.

We'll leave this particular tangent here please gents. Just move on. Thanks.

 Grot 6 wrote:

I want to hear more about those Firebrand guys. Do they sell sets of those guys, or are they just individual sales?

Anyone buy these guys on thier own, yet? How do they come packaged?

How much is the shiping on them? ....

basicly, I want a set of these guys, are there deals in getting a few at a time?

You can only buy individual metal models for 7 pounds each, no sets. There are also the THI suits, but as we will get them cheaper soon, not sure if you wanna go for them. Plus a hero and a heavy guy, also a little more expensive. Shipping is normal McVey shipping cost, not sure how much it is to the US. You can also get some from the CMoN store, but a number are out of stock at the moment.

They come packed in a plastic bag with a standard plastic slotta base.

I personally am exited for November to come, because while all the free extra figures coming out in March are cool, it's the 24 extra duplicates from the base set that really made it such a great deal. I probably would have still thought about the game as replacement for Space Hulk when it hit shelves if it hadn't run a KS, but all the free stuff put the nail in for me.

I only bought two of the extras that are coming in March, one being the THI suit because as all the rest of the game was plastic, I wanted one in plastic with swappable arms, and it's even cheaper than the current model so it made sense.

Not to mention that having the THI Suit gets you an upgrade to it so that the Pilot woman can be piloting the suit...

I don't get- so the kickstarter is long over

The release is in November - right. Is this an official announcement? I haven't seen any announcement on their site.

Also-I would like a copy in November to reach me-where can I order it-does someone now?

Thanks a lot guys

The KS backers should get theirs sent sometime in October

(we're told it's running on time)

but I haven't seen anywhere advertising it for sale yet, but I imagine it won't be long

CMON is handling the distribution in the USA

http://www.coolminiornot.com/shop/

Studio McVey is handling the distribution in Europe

http://studiomcvey.com/

so I expect it to show up with them first before reaching the online distributors

usa_supersonic wrote:
I don't get- so the kickstarter is long over

The release is in November - right. Is this an official announcement? I haven't seen any announcement on their site.

Also-I would like a copy in November to reach me-where can I order it-does someone now?

Thanks a lot guys

Kickstarter backers get their copies in November. IF that's the retail release time, you'll be able to order it then or when it goes up for pre-order. Nowhere has it up for pre-order so far, so non-backers can't order it yet.

Update from Mike:

Hey guys - just a quick catch up.

Sorry we have been MIA, but the last few weeks have been difficult. We have been moving house and studio and have been without internet in either for the past four weeks (aaaarghhhhh!) - but we are gradually getting organised again. We are in the new studio now (bare concrete floor and only just got heating on Friday) and have had a temporary connection for a few days, the real one is supposed to be connected on Monday which will make a huge difference to our productivity and communication.

Production is still in full-swing - there have been 'challenges', but here is a quick pic to show where we're at.




More definite news on shipping as soon as we have it.

As for not posting news and pictures of the sculpts because one drew some flack - that's not the case at all. I pulled that thread because it was just going round in circles - and I just don't want that sort of aggressive back and forth on these forums.

So work is continuing full-steam - we're nearing the end of the work that the KS created, and are already well into development on the follow-up. Sedition Wars 'AoS'

cheers!

mike



Well 3 of those boxes belong to me

All my insides just did a little jump of joy at the sight of those boxes!

thats mine top left i can tell ! :]

Nice to see progress, can't wait to get mine!

Drool!

Damn. That's beautiful.

Indeed it is.

Yay!! I had my 7 year old son do a Happy Dance in my stead. Can't wait!

hmm. take about a month for container shipping from China (both to US east coast and UK), then customs, then shipping to customer - if they can get those containers shipped in the next few weeks there's still a good chance most of us will see this stuff before christmas

Bolognesus wrote:
hmm. take about a month for container shipping from China (both to US east coast and UK), then customs, then shipping to customer - if they can get those containers shipped in the next few weeks there's still a good chance most of us will see this stuff before christmas

J0YFULL THOUGHT!!

Mike reported the game was in final packout on 18th September (I guess the photo is from that)

so fingers crossed they are already on boats on thier way to impatient new owners everywhere

(my big fear is them arriving in port only to sit in customs for months for no good reason)

I guess it would be nice to actually get an update from CMON at some stage. A Shame it has to come from Mike in such a roundabout manner...

 scipio.au wrote:
I guess it would be nice to actually get an update from CMON at some stage. A Shame it has to come from Mike in such a roundabout manner...

Quick! Have a knee-jerk reaction to an update and immediately cancel your pledge. It's the Dakka Dakka way.

I can't wait for my first wave to show up!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 scipio.au wrote:
I guess it would be nice to actually get an update from CMON at some stage. A Shame it has to come from Mike in such a roundabout manner...

Quick! Have a knee-jerk reaction to an update and immediately cancel your pledge. It's the Dakka Dakka way.

OK!

I.. erm.. don't like the way those boxes are stacked on the palettes! You can clearly see the boxes are not aligned in the same way. I'm emailing CMoN and cancelling my pledge!

How's that?

Perfect!

yeah,
Bloody hell, so sick of ...

*must retain control... I want game*

Panic...

Perfect

I understand how much stuff is in them, but those boxes are still bigger than I thought they'd be...

 Platuan4th wrote:
I understand how much stuff is in them, but those boxes are still bigger than I thought they'd be...

i hear that allll the time !

 Platuan4th wrote:
I understand how much stuff is in them, but those boxes are still bigger than I thought they'd be...

The tiles are 350mm x 350mm (14"x14") so the box needs to be at least that size if not slightly bigger.

Bigger = better. Ask any Texan.

14x14 inch tiles, didn't realise that That's very nice

Yes it is. Those are very good sized tiles. With two sets you could almost do a 4x4 table.

And think what 3!!! Sets could do!!

Not quite 4.5x4.5?

So we're edging towards November... any news on this thing being shipped yet?

No word so far on the McVey forums. One guy is talking about his resin Strain but nobody has mentioned any plastics or the game itself. Studio McVey hasn't made any announcements either.

Personally, I'm not expecting any word unti at least the first week of November.

The post-finish date communication on this Kickstarter is just awesome.

 scipio.au wrote:
The post-finish date communication on this Kickstarter is just awesome.

They could take example from Reaper.

Isn't CMON hard at work starting off yet another project right about now?

 IdentifyZero wrote:

 scipio.au wrote:
The post-finish date communication on this Kickstarter is just awesome.

They could take example from Reaper.

Or Stonehaven, or Red Box, or Mantic....

 BrookM wrote:
Isn't CMON hard at work starting off yet another project right about now?

Yeah Super Relic Zombie Mech Dungeon Explore Knights

 BrookM wrote:
Isn't CMON hard at work starting off yet another project right about now?

To my knowledge they still have Confrontation, Dark Age and Wrath of kings which i think we'll probably see on KS within the next 6-8 months, simply because i doubt that CMON would pass up the chance to make an easy $500k-1M from a simple KS campaign.

It must be said that post-KS comms have been v poor. There was a little more on the McVey forums, but then it dried out.

A shame, really...

What do you expect?

Here is the box on the factory floor, here ist the box on the truck, here is the box in the container?....

Shipping is not the most interesting phase and who wants additional information already gets it from the McVey forum...

Sometimes...

Well, the last KS update was Sep 9th, showing Iron Lily and Bonecrabs - Nowt since then.

And yes, I have been checking the McVey forum to get extra info, but I'm sure a lot of people would rather just get KS communications just to reassure them that things are still moving, that the original expected dates still stand etc etc.

Blame CMON, they run the KS side of things. Zombicide has also gotten eerily quiet with Guillotine doing the odd announcement over Facebook instead.

Weren't there pics a while ago showing ranks of boxes waiting to head off from a warehouse somewhere?

++EDIT++ Yes, it was on the 6th of this month.

I don't think anything has been announced since then however.

Did the initial release blurb just say 'November' rather than a specific date? If so, we could potentially waiting at least another month or so. So, it might not be best to start holding one's breath yet!

 Pacific wrote:
Weren't there pics a while ago showing ranks of boxes waiting to head off from a warehouse somewhere?

++EDIT++ Yes, it was on the 6th of this month.

I don't think anything has been announced since then however.

Yes, but that was from Studio McVey's forums rather than the KS itself, so you did have to go and find it

My understanding is that the McVeys have been moving/just moved across the country.

I'm hoping that they will post updates once they get their internet in properly. They've apparently gone quiet since the Jada incident.

 scipio.au wrote:
My understanding is that the McVeys have been moving/just moved across the country.

I'm hoping that they will post updates once they get their internet in properly. They've apparently gone quiet since the Jada incident.

There is actually an update from McVey on their forum after the incident, including a comment to the incident itself

Hey guys - just a quick catch up.

Sorry we have been MIA, but the last few weeks have been difficult. We have been moving house and studio and have been without internet in either for the past four weeks (aaaarghhhhh!) - but we are gradually getting organised again. We are in the new studio now (bare concrete floor and only just got heating on Friday) and have had a temporary connection for a few days, the real one is supposed to be connected on Monday which will make a huge difference to our productivity and communication.

Production is still in full-swing - there have been 'challenges', but here is a quick pic to show where we're at.



More definite news on shipping as soon as we have it.

As for not posting news and pictures of the sculpts because one drew some flack - that's not the case at all. I pulled that thread because it was just going round in circles - and I just don't want that sort of aggressive back and forth on these forums.

So work is continuing full-steam - we're nearing the end of the work that the KS created, and are already well into development on the follow-up. Sedition Wars 'AoS'

cheers!

mike

Yeah, I've seen that pic. It and the attached post was posted over 2 weeks ago now. A friend of mine is pretty active on their forums and had this to say:

The McVeys have more or less gone incommunicado since the Jada fiasco. I'm glad I missed it, but it pretty much destroyed that forum. Success breeds xxxx on your forum, you have to have good moderators who nuke people from orbit before it gets too toxic. I think Reaper did a good job when people tried similar xxxx with the cloud giantess concept art.

 scipio.au wrote:
Yeah, I've seen that pic. It and the attached post was posted over 2 weeks ago now. A friend of mine is pretty active on their forums and had this to say:

The McVeys have more or less gone incommunicado since the Jada fiasco. I'm glad I missed it, but it pretty much destroyed that forum. Success breeds xxxx on your forum, you have to have good moderators who nuke people from orbit before it gets too toxic. I think Reaper did a good job when people tried similar xxxx with the cloud giantess concept art.

I dunno if the silence on this project is deafening or not, but it is a bit irritating...

It seems to be happening with Zombicide too.

There are lots of additional characters that need sculpts for both lines and we haven't seen anything in awhile. It seems a bit like CoolMini wants to not be bothered. It also seems like the McVeys have stuck their heads in the sand. Whether either of these is true or not I do not know, but that is certainly my perception.

I will be hesitant to back anything else that CMoN are involved in. I was burned by New Wave Games back in the day. Hope this doesn't turn out to be a fool me twice situation...

Looking forward to my game.

~Eric

Disappointed in the level of communication on a relative timeline with that last pallet pic. Not a hard date but a projected timeline or something. I did already front my money so do think I'm deserving of a bit more status updates.

I'm hopeful the lack of communication means that there's a lot of non-glamorous logistical kinda stuff going on behind the scenes and all of our boxes are on some boat crossing the pacific right now, or maybe even on a train crossing the US. They have till the end of November till you can consider it late, so that's still like 5 or 6 more weeks... an eternity in Galactic Standard Interweb Time.

I doubt that anything has actually left the warehouse yet. I also wonder if they have anything set up with their distributer to handle shipping out the kickstarter stuff at the same time as the stuff that's shipping to retail outlets. I don't remember anything in the kickstarter saying we'd get our stuff earlier than the general public so I don't expect to see anything prior to that.

But a word or two from them on their own forums would still be nice.

Do not get me wrong, I cannot wait to get all of my items but I feel like maybe I could have spent less with each day that passes!

As for not posting news and pictures of the sculpts because one drew some flack - that's not the case at all. I pulled that thread because it was just going round in circles - and I just don't want that sort of aggressive back and forth on these forums.

*Snort*

It's always nice when a business owner feels so comfortable he can be completely honest with the people that paid him months in advance... Not to make butter out of his peanuts, but c'mon.

It's probably a bit closer to what their chief moderator/site administrator surmised,

Lugburz wrote:This goes above my pay-grade (which is to say £0, so I speak for no one but myself), but the backlash regarding the last sculpt preview had a definite impact on future updates and how they will be displayed. This isn't to say that miniatures won't be previewed before general release, but you may end up seeing them painted before you see the green-stuff / master molds.

What happened seems pretty typical of what has been seen from this first "generation" of kickstarter successes. They end up making way, way more money and attracting more interest then they initially expected or budgeted for, and find themselves overwhelmed.

The McVeys got near-about a million in advanced cash, thousands of pre-buys, and then... they moved to the Shire (or wherever it was that didn't have internet) and were essentially incommunicado for a month?

During that time, the only staff of any kind available on their forums were unpaid, volunteer moderators. Whatever you think of SM's ability to design minis/games/etc, that's some not-ready-for-prime-time stuff from a business perspective.

That's been happening all over the place: the communication in terms of when stuff would be shipping, along with making decisions for shirts and posters, for Tentacle Bento has been pretty atrocious (which really gives one good feelings about their much, much bigger Relic Knights KS...).

Reaper, who have been otherwise quite good, ended up with so many orders for paint that they ended up getting moved back 6 months to ship, all because they couldn't source enough bottles! (We should all have such problems, hehe!)

The lack of communication does rather annoy me. What would be wrong with posting a couple of pics of the actual sets? After all, we haven't even seen what most of the stuff looks like in plastic! Also, pretty sure they promised painted pics of said plastics in a few days, last month. Where are they?

Ah well, I can live with it provided I get all my stuff this year, just wanted to voice my opinion!

I think many of the posters have summarized the reasons why Kickstarter isn't as great as it may seem at first glance.

The McVeys were not ready for this it seems, but they should have been better prepared. With a million dollars coming in, maybe they could have hired a community manager to keep their customers happy, instead of unpaid volunteers who can't offer much.


Oh well. Once I get my models, I will make final judgement on the KS.

Keep in mind that not everything is shipping in November. Look at your kickstarter and you'll see that a bunch of stuff is scheduled for 2013. I only remind people of this because I don't want to read all the posts about how people are butt-hurt by McVey because they didn't get everything they wanted in the first shipment.

Just wait for 2013 to roll around and still have no communication lol

It is a shame that they went into shutdown mode after the Jada Lily debacle.

Still, they should have hired someone to manage the project.

It is a rather disturbing trend now though - the bigger, more successful Kickstarters not having a good line of communication or plan to deal with the success...

 Alpharius wrote:
It is a shame that they went into shutdown mode after the Jada Lily debacle.

Still, they should have hired someone to manage the project.

It is a rather disturbing trend now though - the bigger, more successful Kickstarters not having a good line of communication or plan to deal with the success...

Reaper is still communicating and they blew SW away. I think it's poor form on the part of the McVeys at this point. I defended them quite a bit but they have left us all in the dark and it has generated the feeling of discontent many have.

 IdentifyZero wrote:
I think many of the posters have summarized the reasons why Kickstarter isn't as great as it may seem at first glance.

x1000

KS is still a pretty new concept, and I think given the delivery dates of a lot of the projects have yet to come around, we've only seen the results of a few failures - indeed, I've only read about one in depth, but I'm sure there has been others.

I think the "stretch" part of "stretch goal" is perhaps a little too apt in projects like this. It's great to keep throwing money down to get all these bonus extras that come about, but in hindsight are you going to wish that they'd just concentrated on the original content with perhaps half as many stretch goals if it enables them to release a higher quality product in a timely manner, with more money devoted to managing the entire post-KS process?

 IdentifyZero wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
It is a shame that they went into shutdown mode after the Jada Lily debacle.

Still, they should have hired someone to manage the project.

It is a rather disturbing trend now though - the bigger, more successful Kickstarters not having a good line of communication or plan to deal with the success...

Reaper is still communicating and they blew SW away. I think it's poor form on the part of the McVeys at this point. I defended them quite a bit but they have left us all in the dark and it has generated the feeling of discontent many have.

This.

Also, great post above by Buzzsaw. I also enjoyed the pun. (I see what you did there).

I don't think McVeys are going to rip me off, but I expect that it will (all?) be late. Ultimately the way that they (and CMON) handle the post "give us money" phase will be what impacts how willing I am to go in for any future KS either company has anything to do with. I'm far from angry or in "give me my stuff" or "you ripped us off" mode, but neither am I impressed with the lack of communication either. Going from daily updates to a deafening silence once the money is in isn't quite awesome, if you see what I mean...

I ask "Is there any new news?" and somehow we're at "I don't think the McVey's are going to rip me off!".

Sheesh... Kickstarters are bad for this website. Everyone acts like it's life or death...

At this point, unless DUST feels the need for some crazy Kickstarter for no reason, I am done with the whole thing.

I got a great amount of Sedition Wars miniatures at an amazing price I suppose, I believe they will deliver us a quality product but as Scipio.au said, it's likely going to be late, I have no doubts. :( I do however, feel that a great deal of this post-KS silence falls to CMON.

The McVeys are small time people mostly, CMON did not seem to guide them through the post-KS process or even attempt to. I'm not ranting or raving for my cash back, nor will I when I get my models (I hope), but I do think that many of us get sucked in by the 'deal' of the KS without considering the time we may be waiting.

The Reaper Kickstarter is an example I will use again of one that probably brought many of us in, solely because of that $100 deal, the amount of miniatures you get is astounding.

I just feel, perhaps, that the KS is not as great of a deal, situation or tool if you want to get product or a deal; since the real purpose is to support those people with their goal, they are not even obligated to supply to you after if all falls through for some reason, based upon what I have read.

We all probably got an extra $50-$100 value in our box sets through KS, just at the cost of waiting. One way to look at it is, if we did not use KS we would still be waiting. Given how many of us who paid into the KS probably ordered from Studio McVey? The deal becomes more extraordinary when you consider that a squad of 10 Vanguard was over $100 USD! That blows the cost of GW or any other company out of the water really.

Sorry if this got a bit long, long story short, they messed up but in the end, we will get our product from these guys. It just might take a bit longer than expected.

I think it's about time periods and expectations.

I am still perfectly happy with this as I trust them as much now and don't expect communication unless problems occur.

6 months to a year is kind of the point of a kickstarter. Heck, I just signed up for one that delivers in May 2014.

There is always a chance it could fall over, just the people involved (and the stacks of boxes in the pictures) make that unlikely.

Late... probably... but as soon as they hit $200k I thought late was a certainty

 IdentifyZero wrote:

The McVeys are small time people mostly, CMON did not seem to guide them through the post-KS process or even attempt to. I'm not ranting or raving for my cash back, nor will I when I get my models (I hope), but I do think that many of us get sucked in by the 'deal' of the KS without considering the time we may be waiting.

Definitely agree, it's important to remember that McVey studios are quite small time (perhaps just he and his wife?) That they were shocked by the money this project received is a certainty.

To be honest I don't mind waiting a little while, and would rather wait a few extra months if it means the final product will be better (although Christmas time games of Sedition Wars would be perfect! ) but the issue here is with lack of communication and also a bit of management from CMoN. I mean they must be making an absolute packet out of the KS, surely it justifies a guy sitting down to write an email every 2-3 weeks with a project update? I think that would immediately put everyone's minds at ease, even if they were then informed that there had been some delay.

Same to with the poo-storm on the McVey forums regarding Jada - it just needed a small-time moderator to give a friendly reminder to the few people who were getting heated about it (and if you look, it was the same people posting the same thing repeatedly). And instead what we have now is the obvious implication that it has made them much more cautious about releasing anything, compounding the issues caused by the lack of communication from CMoN.

I don't think there is any reason to expect a delay. The original date which is stated on Kickstarter is November so they have more than a month. And given the picture of what seems to be the finished boxes seems they are probably getting ready for start shipping. Although I have to agree that if they would tell us this we all would be a lot happier.

 Bacms wrote:
I don't think there is any reason to expect a delay. The original date which is stated on Kickstarter is November so they have more than a month. And given the picture of what seems to be the finished boxes seems they are probably getting ready for start shipping. Although I have to agree that if they would tell us this we all would be a lot happier.

Exactly!

It isn't even late yet - and from all appearances, it isn't going to be!

 Bacms wrote:
I don't think there is any reason to expect a delay. The original date which is stated on Kickstarter is November so they have more than a month. And given the picture of what seems to be the finished boxes seems they are probably getting ready for start shipping. Although I have to agree that if they would tell us this we all would be a lot happier.

Assuming that that is not 4 pallets of empty boxes and they are not being store in Maelstroms phantom warehouse!

I agree though it is far too early for gnashing of teeth, last week of November maybe but not October.

 Pacific wrote:
the issue here is with lack of communication and also a bit of management from CMoN. I mean they must be making an absolute packet out of the KS, surely it justifies a guy sitting down to write an email every 2-3 weeks with a project update? I think that would immediately put everyone's minds at ease, even if they were then informed that there had been some delay.

Same to with the poo-storm on the McVey forums regarding Jada - it just needed a small-time moderator to give a friendly reminder to the few people who were getting heated about it (and if you look, it was the same people posting the same thing repeatedly). And instead what we have now is the obvious implication that it has made them much more cautious about releasing anything, compounding the issues caused by the lack of communication from CMoN.

This says it pretty well, though we were discussing similar points way back when we were waiting on the pledge manager. As for the palettes of boxes there wasn't any indication of where they were, so I'm assuming China, so there's no guarantee that they're even on a slow boat to San Fran yet (or whichever port they're using.) That's the thing with not being updated or given any information - it leads to all kinds of fun speculation!

I don't think any KS I've supported has been late - yet:

Red Box Games looks like people who ordered cavalry will be a week into November (everything else has been cast, from my understanding), and he's working on the last cavalry model (theoretically if there's a lot of overnight shipping, it could make October, but that's not necessary(). So that's about the only late one so far.

Kings of War - Mantic delivered the first army shipments _earlier_ than the dates on the KS. The second stuff is what, May 2013?

Judge Dredd - I've seen messages from people who have already received their pledges (of models that currently exist), and Mongoose just showed a ton of greens for CitiDef and Sovs and others. No worries there.

Low Life - they keep showing greens and a half dozen are about to be cast. (Feb/Jun 2013)

Fanticide - has just shipped, on time.

Sedition Wars - due November for the first shipment, so we've got 5 weeks.

so while I also understand and it kinda sucks about the lack of updates, should anyone really be complaining unless it's maybe a month from now and no one has Sedition Wars boxes in hand?

 judgedoug wrote:
Kings of War - Mantic delivered the first army shipments _earlier_ than the dates on the KS. The second stuff is what, May 2013?

,,,planned for somewhere Q2 2013, originally. seems it'll be march/april now, I believe - they might squeeze it into Q1, actually

 scipio.au wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
the issue here is with lack of communication and also a bit of management from CMoN. I mean they must be making an absolute packet out of the KS, surely it justifies a guy sitting down to write an email every 2-3 weeks with a project update? I think that would immediately put everyone's minds at ease, even if they were then informed that there had been some delay.

Same to with the poo-storm on the McVey forums regarding Jada - it just needed a small-time moderator to give a friendly reminder to the few people who were getting heated about it (and if you look, it was the same people posting the same thing repeatedly). And instead what we have now is the obvious implication that it has made them much more cautious about releasing anything, compounding the issues caused by the lack of communication from CMoN.

This says it pretty well, though we were discussing similar points way back when we were waiting on the pledge manager. As for the palettes of boxes there wasn't any indication of where they were, so I'm assuming China, so there's no guarantee that they're even on a slow boat to San Fran yet (or whichever port they're using.) That's the thing with not being updated or given any information - it leads to all kinds of fun speculation!

These two hit it perfectly.

Its not that I'm worried about not receiving my stuff, or even that I care it will be late. It is the lack of communication that most of us find, at best, a little irritating. I love seeing sculpts for figures. I'm sure there are new ones to show. At the very least, it lets us know there is something going on with the stuff we pledged hundreds, and some of us thousands, of dollars for.

Communication is easy. And CMoN seem to be very poor at it, or just don't want to be bothered by it. Either way, its not good. It seems to not be just this project either. Relic Knights has been quiet from my understanding, and Zombicide has questions hanging out there waiting for answers as well.

~Eric