CaptKaruthors wrote:
Any word on what the Wraithknight formation does?

Bleeds your wallet dry.

Engrimm wrote:Apocalypse Fortifications
The aquila strongpoint can be armed with macro cannon or vortex missile (it isnt remove everything it touches anymore although still powerful). They cost quite a bit, AV15 all sides. Macro cannon can fire in 2 way, 1st is 2 D shots large blast, 2nd apocalyptic megablast at S10/7/5 Ap1/4/6 (1st number for the 5" at the centre, 5-10" 2nd, 10-15" 3rd). this shot also has a sonic boom rule, which affects flying stuff in the patch of the shell, not going to go into more detail as the mods will kick me out soon

 pretre wrote:

Engrimm wrote:They cost quite a bit, AV15 all sides.

Sounds like a typo to me. AV14 is most likely correct. AV15 just opens up all kinds of ass-hattery and butt-hurt if they go that route...

Yeah, I suspected that as well.

 pretre wrote:

Engrimm wrote:Apocalypse Fortifications
The aquila strongpoint can be armed with macro cannon or vortex missile (it isnt remove everything it touches anymore although still powerful). They cost quite a bit, AV15 all sides. Macro cannon can fire in 2 way, 1st is 2 D shots large blast, 2nd apocalyptic megablast at S10/7/5 Ap1/4/6 (1st number for the 5" at the centre, 5-10" 2nd, 10-15" 3rd). this shot also has a sonic boom rule, which affects flying stuff in the patch of the shell, not going to go into more detail as the mods will kick me out soon

Interesting, so the Macro-cannon profile in the BRB is only part of the profile... why would they include an Apoc-only weapon in the main rulebook?

 McNinja wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Engrimm wrote:Apocalypse Fortifications
The aquila strongpoint can be armed with macro cannon or vortex missile (it isnt remove everything it touches anymore although still powerful). They cost quite a bit, AV15 all sides. Macro cannon can fire in 2 way, 1st is 2 D shots large blast, 2nd apocalyptic megablast at S10/7/5 Ap1/4/6 (1st number for the 5" at the centre, 5-10" 2nd, 10-15" 3rd). this shot also has a sonic boom rule, which affects flying stuff in the patch of the shell, not going to go into more detail as the mods will kick me out soon

Interesting, so the Macro-cannon profile in the BRB is only part of the profile... why would they include an Apoc-only weapon in the main rulebook?

It's not Apoc-only; there're rules in the box for normal 40K play.

Mythal wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Engrimm wrote:Apocalypse Fortifications
The aquila strongpoint can be armed with macro cannon or vortex missile (it isnt remove everything it touches anymore although still powerful). They cost quite a bit, AV15 all sides. Macro cannon can fire in 2 way, 1st is 2 D shots large blast, 2nd apocalyptic megablast at S10/7/5 Ap1/4/6 (1st number for the 5" at the centre, 5-10" 2nd, 10-15" 3rd). this shot also has a sonic boom rule, which affects flying stuff in the patch of the shell, not going to go into more detail as the mods will kick me out soon

Interesting, so the Macro-cannon profile in the BRB is only part of the profile... why would they include an Apoc-only weapon in the main rulebook?

It's not Apoc-only; there're rules in the box for normal 40K play.

Ah true I forgot about that.

 kronk wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Engrimm wrote:They cost quite a bit, AV15 all sides.

Sounds like a typo to me. AV14 is most likely correct. AV15 just opens up all kinds of ass-hattery and butt-hurt if they go that route...

Like what? Plenty of D/S9+/Melta/Lance weaponry to go around in an apocalypse games I'd assume.

 Redemption wrote:

 kronk wrote:

 pretre wrote:

Engrimm wrote:They cost quite a bit, AV15 all sides.

Sounds like a typo to me. AV14 is most likely correct. AV15 just opens up all kinds of ass-hattery and butt-hurt if they go that route...

Like what? Plenty of D/S9+/Melta/Lance weaponry to go around in an apocalypse games I'd assume.

That's true. Lance weapons don't care, and it's only marginally better against Melta weapons. Weapons like the DE Heat Lance care even less, since they're both Lance and Melta AND AP1. Though S6 isn't awesome, combined with those other properties, it doesn't really matter.

So if the Eagle Cannon is a massive structure, does that mean they'll reclassify the (bigger) Fortress or Redemption?

FoR probably has Apoc rules now.

Don't give them ideas!

I assume, though, that this means there aren't any Apocalypse Formations for Sisters of Battle in the new edition. Doubly irksome, since even the 6th Ed BRB recognises they were present at Armageddon...

You'll just have to savor the 2 they gave you previously. LOL.

D weapons are beyond insane now.

Sisters are part of a Grey Knight datasheet, but not a one click scam due to high prices of SoB models.

You have to deploy the SoB directly in front of the GK, and on your first turn, remove them as casualties. GK then get +1 to their invulnerable saves.










Yes, it's a joke. But I could almost see them make such a datasheet.

Bleh, D weapons are even worse (better?) now. Honestly D weapons are what made me stop playing Apoc months after it was first released, guess this will probably just keep me away. It was always a 'he who plays imperial, wins' situation as imperial superheavies/titans would outnumber us xenos at least 3:1 all the time. Never really got any joy out of Apoc, just not my thing apparently.

Disappointed that they haven't added a points cost to D weapons. Our only hope is that they have smaller blasts and/or other titan weapons become more worthwhile.

This thread is doing wonderful things to help me resist the urge to go stupid building apoc formations. That and the fact that I can't think of how to combine imperials, orks, and tyranids into a single team and have it be anything even remotely fluffy... but mostly the stories of pain and woe. (Never mind that I've played a grand total of 2 games of Apocalypse... if not playing stopped me from buying crap, I'd have a lot less plastic.)

Whats the deal with D strength now?

 -Loki- wrote:
Whats the deal with D strength now?

Now ignores all saves (including invulnerable saves) and save-like abilities (FNP, reanimation protocols, etc) and against non-superheavy vehicles auto-kills on a 2+ instead of just inflicting a penetrating hit. They also strip multiple HP from superheavy vehicles, but the standard competitive apocalypse strategy is still going to be deep striking mass melta to kill superheavies while D-weapon titans erase entire armies of smaller stuff from the table.

Needless to say, anyone who plays apocalypse regularly is going to house rule a D-weapon nerf.

That's... kind of excessive.

Luckily, out of my friends, none of them have anything that uses D strength weapons.

I still maintain that the problem with Strength D weapons wasn't what they did but more what could mount them. They set the ceiling too low, so things like Tubo-Lasers and Pulsars were Strength D when they should not have been.

Strength D would be reserved for things that are beyond the scope of the game - like the Volcano Cannon, Quake Cannons, Plasma Annihilators, and so on.

Instakilling land raiders seems a tad excessive to me.

 Peregrine wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Whats the deal with D strength now?

Now ignores all saves (including invulnerable saves) and save-like abilities (FNP, reanimation protocols, etc) and against non-superheavy vehicles auto-kills on a 2+ instead of just inflicting a penetrating hit. They also strip multiple HP from superheavy vehicles, but the standard competitive apocalypse strategy is still going to be deep striking mass melta to kill superheavies while D-weapon titans erase entire armies of smaller stuff from the table.

Needless to say, anyone who plays apocalypse regularly is going to house rule a D-weapon nerf.

It's possible that they've toned down the weapons that are actually Strength D. Buff Strength D to make it even more impressive, but heavily restrict it's availability and actual impact.

Not optimistic though.

Anyone saw those formations they're selling (without many bundle price reductions)?

I am just wondering what people think of that...I mean it's one thing to have bought models during a period of time and then bring'em all in for a game..this is, I believe, the point of Apocalypse...it's another to spend 600$ to get that tank company or that infantry/heavy weapon company just to play a game right off the bat...and without any discount as well, seems almost..cheap.

 Peregrine wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Whats the deal with D strength now?

Now ignores all saves (including invulnerable saves) and save-like abilities (FNP, reanimation protocols, etc) and against non-superheavy vehicles auto-kills on a 2+ instead of just inflicting a penetrating hit. They also strip multiple HP from superheavy vehicles, but the standard competitive apocalypse strategy is still going to be deep striking mass melta to kill superheavies while D-weapon titans erase entire armies of smaller stuff from the table.

Needless to say, anyone who plays apocalypse regularly is going to house rule a D-weapon nerf.

If I understood correctly, even if you're a regular single-wound model who gets hit by a D weapon, you're ok if the firer rolls a one and the other results only matter for multiwound units.

Didn't turbolasers and such remove D3 structure points in Imperial Armor? ...way before Apoc?

Those D-weapon tables seem completely crazy. The vehicle table is ridiculously more lethal than the non-vehicle one. An ogryn has a much better chance of surviving than a land raider does.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Anyone saw those formations they're selling (without many bundle price reductions)?

I am just wondering what people think of that...I mean it's one thing to have bought models during a period of time and then bring'em all in for a game..this is, I believe, the point of Apocalypse...it's another to spend 600$ to get that tank company or that infantry/heavy weapon company just to play a game right off the bat...and without any discount as well, seems almost..cheap.

You're a few days late to that party. Check 5-10 pages back to find the talk about that particular issue.

Oh ok. Thanks for the head's up

D-Weapons aren't really that different than before other than the fact that gargantuan creatures can be hurt more effectively by them now. I like that as those weapons should be the ones taking out those things. Additionally, it is actually possible now to survive a D-weapon hit as it doesn't cause ID anymore. Lastly, it looks like more formations are gaining access to d-weapons which means a more even distribution of them which balances out their use a bit. Thankfully, with this level of mayhem...APOC games may be finished in a reasonable time now and not be an all day (and sometimes tiring) affair. I'm okay with D-Weapons being the way they are.

Brother Paen wrote:
Didn't turbolasers and such remove D3 structure points in Imperial Armor? ...way before Apoc?

Vortex grenades did. Not sure about d-weapons Pre-Apocalypse, though. They certainly didn't with the 4th ed and 5th ed Apocalypse books.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
D-Weapons aren't really that different than before other than the fact that gargantuan creatures can be hurt more effectively by them now.

The problem with that is Gargantuan Creatures were already hilariously vulnerable to D strength weapons. The only way Heirophants, one of the toughest Gargantuans in the game, lasted longer than a turn or two was by houseruling them to have the 5th edition 3++ from Warp Field. Making them easier to kill them with D strength weapons is just stupid.

Gargantuan Creatures only took 1 wound from Strength D, they were the most survivable models against it.

I don't have my Apocalypse book at work, but I'm fairly sure they took D6, and some people houseruled it to D3 to make them more survivable.

The problem with that is Gargantuan Creatures were already hilariously vulnerable to D strength weapons. The only way Heirophants, one of the toughest Gargantuans in the game, lasted longer than a turn or two was by houseruling them to have the 5th edition 3++ from Warp Field. Making them easier to kill them with D strength weapons is just stupid.

Uh...no they weren't. D-Weapons did 1 wound per shot. Hierophants would be in your lines by the time you'd be able to do enough damage. Most killy GMCs had an invulnerable save which they could use before. Now they can't. GMCs were far superior to their titan counter parts in the previous version of APOC. Tyranids had some of the best formations, etc as well. D-Weapons look to be the means of speeding up the APOC games some what. I can get behind that.

 -Loki- wrote:
I don't have my Apocalypse book at work, but I'm fairly sure they took D6, and some people houseruled it to D3 to make them more survivable.

Incorrect. From the apocalypse book that looks like this:

Page 96: Destroyer weapons: "If the target fails to save the wound, the weapon always inflicts instant Death, regardless of the target's toughness. If the target is immune to Instant Death, then the destroyer will cause one wound as normal."

Page 91: Under Gargantuan Creatures: "All Gargantuan creatures are immune to the Instant Death rule.


However, on that same page, it says that "any attack that would normally kill a model automatically (like a Force Weapon or an attack that kills on a failed characteristic test)" they take 1d3 instead.

Maybe that's what you're thinking of?

Correct. I apparently misread the rule that applied multiple wounds to Gargantuan Creatures.

So any sightings of the fabled "terrain large enough to hide a wraithknight behind?

 mjl7atlas wrote:
So any sightings of the fabled "terrain large enough to hide a wraithknight behind?

It's probably the Aquila Strongpoint

Brother Paen wrote:
Didn't turbolasers and such remove D3 structure points in Imperial Armor? ...way before Apoc?

They used to, but they were also just STR 8-10 ordnance weapons and only removed D3 SP if you rolled a "lose a SP" result on the damage table. They were much, much weaker than the Apocalypse version.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
D-Weapons aren't really that different than before other than the fact that gargantuan creatures can be hurt more effectively by them now.

No, D-weapons are significantly different, and much more overpowered.

1) They hurt superheavies a lot more. Now it's an automatic D3+1 (or much more if you roll a 6) instead of just a penetrating hit and having to roll well on the damage table to do it.

2) They auto-kill non-superheavy vehicles on a 2+ instead of just getting a penetrating hit and having to roll well on the damage table. This makes them much more effective at killing multiple "normal" vehicles, effectively turning D-weapons into vortex weapons.

3) They ignore invulnerable saves (and all other defenses). Now your expensive TH/SS terminators die just as fast as anything else even though you paid a lot to get an invulnerable save.

End result is that the "everything that can take D-weapons does take D-weapons" rule becomes even stronger and you absolutely need a house rule to prevent the game becoming nothing more than a question of who can scratchbuild the most D-weapons. They're the best possible weapon against every type of target and there's no reason to ever take anything that doesn't have a D-weapon.

It's why "Destroyer" should be a weapon quality no different to "Rending" or "Fleshbane" or whatever, so that the weapon maintains its regular Strength Value and then gets rules on top of that rather than "Everything under the tempalte just dies" which is, quite frankly, really rather childish.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
It's why "Destroyer" should be a weapon quality no different to "Rending" or "Fleshbane" or whatever, so that the weapon maintains its regular Strength Value and then gets rules on top of that rather than "Everything under the tempalte just dies" which is, quite frankly, really rather childish.

This. So much this!

I have a gun that basically shoots a sun at you. No rocks will save you from that, nor will laying on the ground or throwing your buddy in front of you. Similarly tank armor might survive but the heat or radiation would kill the operators inside.

I see why they made the rules like that, but it should be balanced out by only a few weapons have access to 'D' profiles.

I really don't like the sound of the new D Weapons ignoring invulnerable saves. That makes no sense fluff wise.

Invulnerable saves are often caused by sorcery & psychic powers, which would have the capability to shield from those attacks.

It will speed up the game, but will also take a lot of strategy out of the game. There will be little reason to spend big points on invulnerable save armed models, with lot's of D Weapons on the table.

I hope there is more to this than what I am reading here. Hopefully, only a very few models will have D Weapons with these rules.

 MikeFox wrote:
I see why they made the rules like that, but it should be balanced out by only a few weapons have access to 'D' profiles.

This is what I'm hoping for, HBMCs solution. If they make them this much better, make them much more restricted. Things like Volcano Cannons, Macro Cannons (which, IIRC, are ship based weapons for fleet warfare, mostly), Plasma Annihilators, etc. Guns that actually deserve to be D strength, rather than every Warhound spitting out 4 D strength shots a turn because why the hell wouldn't you give one a pair of turbo lasers?

 -Loki- wrote:

 MikeFox wrote:
I see why they made the rules like that, but it should be balanced out by only a few weapons have access to 'D' profiles.

This is what I'm hoping for, HBMCs solution. If they make them this much better, make them much more restricted. Things like Volcano Cannons, Macro Cannons (which, IIRC, are ship based weapons for fleet warfare, mostly), Plasma Annihilators, etc. Guns that actually deserve to be D strength, rather than every Warhound spitting out 4 D strength shots a turn because why the hell wouldn't you give one a pair of turbo lasers?

I hope the Shadowsword doesn't have a 7" D weapon like it does in the current rules... Take 3 of them, and you would probably win if you go first in any game around the 10K range.

Sounds boring. The game would come down to who goes first, and the only real strategy would be to play reserve games with your opponent. No cover, No invuln, everything dies under a 7" pizza plate.

BTW, the pizza plate goes up to 15" now (used to be 10"). So there are going to be 15" wide D weapons....... Sounds kinda lame honestly.

Honestly, my biggest issue with the rumored D rules (at least going by the BoLS rumors) is that they seem disproportionally effective against tanks. A grot will survive against a D weapon more often than a Land Raider will, and most MC's have a decent, if not better than even chance of walking away from a hit (something like a Wraithlord or Riptide would need a 6 to be rolled to die to one) while non-superheavy vehicles, be it puny Land Speeder or mighty Spartan Assault Tank or Leman Russ, explode on better than a 2+.

dlight wrote:
I really don't like the sound of the new D Weapons ignoring invulnerable saves. That makes no sense fluff wise.

Invulnerable saves are often caused by sorcery & psychic powers, which would have the capability to shield from those attacks.

There's a difference between shielding from a power sword or man portable lascannon, and a particle cannon that's 18m long or a macrocannon firing shells the size of sentinels. There's a limit to what a field mountable on most models can take.

It will speed up the game, but will also take a lot of strategy out of the game. There will be little reason to spend big points on invulnerable save armed models, with lot's of D Weapons on the table.

To be fair, this is already the case, it's very rare that spending lots of points on invul saves on more than one or two models is worth it. Fortunately, even with ignoring invul saves, they actually end up ahead in many cases if they only had like a 5+ invul.

dlight wrote:
BTW, the pizza plate goes up to 15" now (used to be 10"). So there are going to be 15" wide D weapons....... Sounds kinda lame honestly.

Well, one possibility is that they use more of those variable strength on the 15"/10"/7" blast weapons, such as only D Strength on the inner circle and lower Strength and AP in the outer ring(s). So if you scatter the D section of the blast marker might miss the intended target even if you still hit it with the marker.

Am i the only one that thinks the new way the 15"/10"/7" template works will seriously slow the game down?

Personally I think STR D should have always ignored invul save since it a insane powerful blast that nothing can escape from. However I can understand others opinion why the new rule seem OP, but it is a new edition and new rules. People will adapt. Fortunately I just spam a Imperial Navy, Cron Air, and all the stormravens/talons,heldrakes, and now hemlocks all in my list. To be fair, I been using flyers in APOC ever since APOC rules allowing a 4+ cover save, and a 12 inch weapon range reduction for enemies firing at them. Those were the days!

legions_no_more wrote:
Personally I think STR D should have always ignored invul save since it a insane powerful blast that nothing can escape from. However I can understand others opinion why the new rule seem OP, but it is a new edition and new rules. People will adapt. Fortunately I just spam a Imperial Navy, Cron Air, and all the stormravens/talons,heldrakes, and now hemlocks all in my list. To be fair, I been using flyers in APOC ever since APOC rules allowing a 4+ cover save, and a 12 inch weapon range reduction for enemies firing at them. Those were the days!

Spamming flyers in the Apoc environment I play in is a very bad idea. There is so much AA on the table, they pretty much blow up as soon as they come in.
I rarely take them anymore. I may take the 3x Heldrake formation (because it starts on the table). But I don't expect it to last more than 1-2 turns.

dlight wrote:

legions_no_more wrote:
Personally I think STR D should have always ignored invul save since it a insane powerful blast that nothing can escape from. However I can understand others opinion why the new rule seem OP, but it is a new edition and new rules. People will adapt. Fortunately I just spam a Imperial Navy, Cron Air, and all the stormravens/talons,heldrakes, and now hemlocks all in my list. To be fair, I been using flyers in APOC ever since APOC rules allowing a 4+ cover save, and a 12 inch weapon range reduction for enemies firing at them. Those were the days!

Spamming flyers in the Apoc environment I play in is a very bad idea. There is so much AA on the table, they pretty much blow up as soon as they come in.
I rarely take them anymore. I may take the 3x Heldrake formation (because it starts on the table). But I don't expect it to last more than 1-2 turns.

Totally agree with AA, but with careful planning and my assassin formation, there literally no AA on the field when my flyers arrives. Plus my teammates makes it an all out effort to take out AA so my fliers can do all the damage. Also adding 9 FMC to the apoc airspace

Seems the rules are designed for people to buy loads of models...So when theyre all destroyed, there will still be something left?
Don't like the sound of this at all.

blood lance wrote:
Seems the rules are designed for people to buy loads of models...

Did you ever think it was going to be something else?

dlight wrote:

legions_no_more wrote:
Personally I think STR D should have always ignored invul save since it a insane powerful blast that nothing can escape from. However I can understand others opinion why the new rule seem OP, but it is a new edition and new rules. People will adapt. Fortunately I just spam a Imperial Navy, Cron Air, and all the stormravens/talons,heldrakes, and now hemlocks all in my list. To be fair, I been using flyers in APOC ever since APOC rules allowing a 4+ cover save, and a 12 inch weapon range reduction for enemies firing at them. Those were the days!

Spamming flyers in the Apoc environment I play in is a very bad idea. There is so much AA on the table, they pretty much blow up as soon as they come in.
I rarely take them anymore. I may take the 3x Heldrake formation (because it starts on the table). But I don't expect it to last more than 1-2 turns.

This. In normal games AA isn't always there. in Apoc it's usually there in a big way.

Though, the last couple Apoc games I played, my opponents decided the best place to put their dozen+ flyers, mostly AV10 Eldar and Ork flyers, was on the side with 9 Hydra Flakk tanks, and then they didn't bother to shoot at the Hydra Flakk Tanks. It ended as expected.

dlight wrote:
Spamming flyers in the Apoc environment I play in is a very bad idea. There is so much AA on the table, they pretty much blow up as soon as they come in.
I rarely take them anymore. I may take the 3x Heldrake formation (because it starts on the table). But I don't expect it to last more than 1-2 turns.

Unless of course you bring an Apocalypse-specific army with 999999999999 Basilisks, in which case all AA is dead by the end of the first shooting phase.

Which really highlights the problem with GW's idiotic design for Apocalypse (only made worse by the new interceptor quad lascannon spam): if you bring a "fluff" army you get tabled even more effortlessly than in in normal 40k. If you design an army for Apocalypse you win. So whoever has the most money to spend on stuff they'll never use in a normal game wins, and everyone else just brings the targets.

That many Basilisks would be quite fluffy, though!

And when you think about it, it does give models without invul saves a shred of hope as now a 1 counts as evaded. They didnt have that before!

Engrimm wrote:

Hierophant is 250 points cheaper. Bio-cannon is assault 6, and he also has a 6+ inv save.

Does anyone have more details on the Nid GC's?

Is the Hierophant really 1000pts when it can be insta-killed by D-weapons now? Does it get any change/bonus to wound regen instead?

What happened to Hierodules and Harridans?

Hi,

the Hierrofant cant be easily instantkilled, you need to roll a 6 followed by a 5 on the D-Table IF IT HAS 10 Wounds - we dont know yet! If hit by a D weapon you roll on this table:

1 No wound
2-5 D3+1 Wound
6 D6+6 Wounds

macldef wrote:

Hi,

the Hierrofant cant be easily instantkilled, you need to roll a 6 followed by a 5 on the D-Table IF IT HAS 10 Wounds - we dont know yet! If hit by a D weapon you roll on this table:

1 No wound
2-5 D3+1 Wound
6 D6+6 Wounds

Wow, so my revenant with 2 pulsars will basically kill it shooting at it once? 8 wounds almost guaranteed.

A lot of D weapons have heavy 2, sometimes more.

You are right, its hard. Same with my Warhoundtitan. But its not one Hit. And this is all assuming that thing has 10 Hitpoints - wich i dont think it will have. The Nurgle-Kugath Greaterdaemon has 7 Hitpoints at about 300 Points...

Another thing: You can kill Titans/Superheavys just as quickly. 9 Hullpoints... no problem.

Unless your pure deamon army, this aint looking good for my army, take d hits on the way in, then smash it down (if anything capable gets there) then d hit when it blows up. Yikes!! Oh well looks like a khonedozer for me. At least it'll draw fire. If a Titan turns up I'll not bother deploying as I can't see any half decent player allowing any mc to even get close.

BUT I will wait untill sat and once I've had a chance to read the book before crying in corner.

Same here,

+ Apo is designed to be played by "friends" - you where able to ruin an apogame with cheese in the last version - you can probably ruin it now. Play it Storytelling and everythin is fine.

Editied - system double posted




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

dlight wrote:
Spamming flyers in the Apoc environment I play in is a very bad idea. There is so much AA on the table, they pretty much blow up as soon as they come in.
I rarely take them anymore. I may take the 3x Heldrake formation (because it starts on the table). But I don't expect it to last more than 1-2 turns.

Unless of course you bring an Apocalypse-specific army with 999999999999 Basilisks, in which case all AA is dead by the end of the first shooting phase.

Which really highlights the problem with GW's idiotic design for Apocalypse (only made worse by the new interceptor quad lascannon spam): if you bring a "fluff" army you get tabled even more effortlessly than in in normal 40k. If you design an army for Apocalypse you win. So whoever has the most money to spend on stuff they'll never use in a normal game wins, and everyone else just brings the targets.

You should have a discussion with your opponent before the game. I can bring Apoc armies that will destroy most players, but it doesn't mean I have to do it.

Apoc is supposed to be about both players having fun (this is emphasized in the rules). If I know my opponents collection is limitied, no super heavies, little AA, etc; I will bring an army that will challenge but not bend him over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skullhammer wrote:
Unless your pure deamon army, this aint looking good for my army, take d hits on the way in, then smash it down (if anything capable gets there) then d hit when it blows up. Yikes!! Oh well looks like a khonedozer for me. At least it'll draw fire. If a Titan turns up I'll not bother deploying as I can't see any half decent player allowing any mc to even get close.

BUT I will wait untill sat and once I've had a chance to read the book before crying in corner.

I would stay away from the Khornedozer. Too many points for what you get.

The Forgeworld Daemon Lord of Change is your best bet. It can reliably destroy a titan in 1 turn of shooting. Forge World will hopefully update it's rules in their next Apoc book.

Hopefully, the daemon lords will be able to use their invulns against D weapons, or will have some other protection added into their rules. As it stands, whoever goes first wins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I did some more digging on the rumors. D-Weapons don't instant kill gargantuan creatures. This is how it works:

You roll on the table instead of rolling to wound or armour penetration. No saves of any kind (even invulnerable, Feel No Pain or Necron Reanimation Protocols) can be taken against them now.

vs vehicles D6 roll:

1= target suffers penetrating hit.
2-5 Super heavies lose D3+1 hull points, other normal vehicles suffer
Explode! result.
6= as above but D6 +6 hull points lost for super heavies.

vs non-vehicle D6 roll:

1= avoid shot
2-5 model loses D3+1 wounds (I like this as monstrous creatures can
survive 2 or 3 shots now so daemons and tyranids will be happy)
6= D6+6 wounds

The last table count for gargantuan creatures as well.

dlight wrote:


The Forgeworld Daemon Lord of Change is your best bet. It can reliably destroy a titan in 1 turn of shooting.... As it stands, whoever goes first wins.

It makes me wish they'd taken the opportunity to revamp 40k somewhat (in either 6E or just the new Apoc) by adopting an "I go, you go" turn system like Epic Armageddon. Something like:

Player 1 picks a unit, moves / shoots / assaults with it,
Player 2 picks a unit, moves / shoots / assaults with it,
Player 1 picks another unit, etc...

Not only does that reduce the scope for decimating an opponent on turn 1 from massed firepower, but it makes the game generally more engaging as you're performing your own actions more often rather than just rolling dice for saving throws every so often. That issue is especially apparent in Apoc, where a single player turn can easily take an hour. No wonder some people find Apoc dull.

Apoc really IS all about not playing with TFG.

So sounds like it will be just like 4th edition: you play within a set of restrictions and its fun, you don't, and one guy loads up on D-weapons (or pulsa rockets in the old apoc book) and the game is an exercise in removing models from the table.

Yeah, I agree with ozy and shade, its all about who you play with and working out balanced sides. We don't play apoc with just anyone, our apoc games are always planned out around a month in advance and all except one was fun for all players involved.

We usually limited our forces to a few superheavies or formations per side. The only superheavy we never restricted was the baneblade because it actually felt reasonable to all parties involved. We never downgraded d weapons but we also didn't field crazy amounts, maybe 1-2 d guns per player.

 Boblogik wrote:
Yeah, I agree with ozy and shade, its all about who you play with and working out balanced sides. We don't play apoc with just anyone, our apoc games are always planned out around a month in advance and all except one was fun for all players involved.

We usually limited our forces to a few superheavies or formations per side. The only superheavy we never restricted was the baneblade because it actually felt reasonable to all parties involved. We never downgraded d weapons but we also didn't field crazy amounts, maybe 1-2 d guns per player.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I am considering dropping a player from my regular Apoc opponents.
He tends to complain and b itch the entire game (unless he is winning). Our last Apoc game we set aside an entire Saturday to play. He threw a fit because I took Epidemius and maxed the tally turn 1, and called the game early.
That left a sour taste in my mouth. I have had to unfortunately put up with it for a while because there are not a lot of gamers into Apoc in my area. However, I am done with him. It is just not an enjoyable experience.

Yeah dlight, people like that no one needs or wants around a gaming table.

Personally i have only played about 3 apoc games before and have enjoyed them a lot, i wish i could play more apoc size and hope to do this in the near future, especially since i'll have something else than a Pylon super heavy that i can put down.

No, D-weapons are significantly different, and much more overpowered.

Not really. It's about the same vs. vehicles.

1) They hurt superheavies a lot more. Now it's an automatic D3+1 (or much more if you roll a 6) instead of just a penetrating hit and having to roll well on the damage table to do it.

Most D-Weapons did more than one structure point because D-Weapons added +1 to the damage table (or +2 if it was AP1). So most of the time you were getting hit with 2-3 structure points as most of the larger D-weapons were 2-3 5" blasts. So most 3 structure point superheavies simply died. No real difference. However, now that super heavies ignore shaken, stunned, immobilized, and weapon destroyed results...killing it outright is the only way to silence them. Additionally, if void shields, etc. still work like they do now...it's going to take several D-weapons to bring those types of superheavies down.

2) They auto-kill non-superheavy vehicles on a 2+ instead of just getting a penetrating hit and having to roll well on the damage table. This makes them much more effective at killing multiple "normal" vehicles, effectively turning D-weapons into vortex weapons.

Again...most d-weapons did that already. Methinks you haven't played much apoc.

3) They ignore invulnerable saves (and all other defenses). Now your expensive TH/SS terminators die just as fast as anything else even though you paid a lot to get an invulnerable save.

TH/SS Terminators are not expensive at all. In APOC levels their points are a drop in the bucket. 200pts for 5. 400pts for 10. Not expensive. This is the only case where you may have a point. However, now these types of units can avoid possible damage altogether. Something that couldn't of happened before. Besides. TH/SS terminators usually die to the 6000 other guns. D-weapons don't even waste their time targeting peon units like this...LOL.

End result is that the "everything that can take D-weapons does take D-weapons" rule becomes even stronger and you absolutely need a house rule to prevent the game becoming nothing more than a question of who can scratchbuild the most D-weapons. They're the best possible weapon against every type of target and there's no reason to ever take anything that doesn't have a D-weapon.

Sadly thats just hyperbole. There are plenty of other weapons worth taking over d-weapons. Plasmablastguns, vulcan megabolters, etc. have their place for sure. More than anything now...there is a more even distribution of D-weapons as it looks like more basic formations can gain access to them. No longer are people needed to solely rely on titans.

I hope the Shadowsword doesn't have a 7" D weapon like it does in the current rules... Take 3 of them, and you would probably win if you go first in any game around the 10K range.

Shadowswords D-weapon only had one 5" blast. Not that scary.

BTW, the pizza plate goes up to 15" now (used to be 10"). So there are going to be 15" wide D weapons....... Sounds kinda lame honestly.

99% of the d-weapons were limited to a 5" blast. The only ones that were larger than that were the distort cannon on a Cobra or a Phantom. Or the larger guns on warlords, imperators, etc. Your run of the mill d-weapons on reavers, revenants, and warhounds, etc. were only a 5" blast.

Honestly, my biggest issue with the rumored D rules (at least going by the BoLS rumors) is that they seem disproportionally effective against tanks. A grot will survive against a D weapon more often than a Land Raider will, and most MC's have a decent, if not better than even chance of walking away from a hit (something like a Wraithlord or Riptide would need a 6 to be rolled to die to one) while non-superheavy vehicles, be it puny Land Speeder or mighty Spartan Assault Tank or Leman Russ, explode on better than a 2+.

There really is not that big a difference. Most d-weapons removed vehicles with ease already. MCs, etc. actually gained survivability. From a logic standpoint maybe they leap out of the way in time...where a slow vehicle cannot.

Unless of course you bring an Apocalypse-specific army with 999999999999 Basilisks, in which case all AA is dead by the end of the first shooting phase.

Except people don't do this. The most I've seen a single person bring is 12. And guess what? They died to orbital barrage assets, and flyers. For every stupid combo someone has...there is always a hard counter to be found in APOC.

Which really highlights the problem with GW's idiotic design for Apocalypse (only made worse by the new interceptor quad lascannon spam): if you bring a "fluff" army you get tabled even more effortlessly than in in normal 40k. If you design an army for Apocalypse you win. So whoever has the most money to spend on stuff they'll never use in a normal game wins, and everyone else just brings the targets.

Firstly, this is outlook is horsegak. Secondly, these are exactly the tools you want to avoid playing regardless..whether it's a standard game or an APOC game. People that attempt this stupidity completely don't get APOC. At all. As for the money thing. APOC was always expensive as the game functions better with the use of formations in larger games. It's just the way it is. Money though has nothing to do with power levels as some of the smaller formations were actually better than the bigger ones. That may still be the case. My suggestion is to wait and see what the new book brings. IMHO, from what I've seen...they've already addressed some of the hang ups people had with the previous edition of APOC and that can only mean good things rather than bad.

 Ozymandias wrote:
(or pulsa rockets in the old apoc book)

I see you've heard the song of Reece's people.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
Not really. It's about the same vs. vehicles.

Yeah, this is what I was thinking. In 5th you wrecked on a 5+ and AP1 D weapons just tore through things. Exploding on a 2+ is barely a change.

TH/SS Terminators are not expensive at all. In APOC levels their points are a drop in the bucket. 200pts for 5. 400pts for 10. Not expensive. This is the only case where you may have a point. However, now these types of units can avoid possible damage altogether. Something that couldn't of happened before. Besides. TH/SS terminators usually die to the 6000 other guns. D-weapons don't even waste their time targeting peon units like this...LOL.

I actually disagree with this. We had a guy in my area who took 40 terminators - a very good D weapon target. It's a shame they'll really suffer. Now they're as survivable as guardsmen, which is a bit silly. They should at least have some bonus for having an invuln save IMO. Hopefully there's a big reduction in blast weapon size for D weapons at least.

Sadly thats just hyperbole. There are plenty of other weapons worth taking over d-weapons. Plasmablastguns, vulcan megabolters, etc. have their place for sure. More than anything now...there is a more even distribution of D-weapons as it looks like more basic formations can gain access to them. No longer are people needed to solely rely on titans.

Agreed. For one, Titans couldn't even HIT flyers without the mega bolter before as all their other weapons were blasts (though that's less important now as most flyers aren't AV10, plus there are better skyfire things now). 10" plasma blasts were no joke if you knew you were facing some hordes (especially nids/orks where D weapons were frankly a waste). I say if you knew, I don't think I've ever played an apocalypse game without at least one nid player and at least 2 Hierophants. Now... well, we'll see what the turbo laser destructor is like. I can't see me NOT thinking it's the best choice vs everything now it can kill gargantuan creatures quite so easily but we'll see.

Shadowswords D-weapon only had one 5" blast. Not that scary.

I disagree. It was a premier Superheavy killer for IG if they didn't bring Titans. Even if they did, it's still good so your Titan isn't shooting theirs. Situational but awesome. Broken VS nids, one shotting MCs was amazing. Now it's weaker vs MCs but stronger overall - seems reasonable.

99% of the d-weapons were limited to a 5" blast. The only ones that were larger than that were the distort cannon on a Cobra or a Phantom. Or the larger guns on warlords, imperators, etc. Your run of the mill d-weapons on reavers, revenants, and warhounds, etc. were only a 5" blast.

Yeah, it was the vortex things you had to watch out for. That old IG deathstrike one was no joke and could kill almost anything, plus it was cheap. Funny but abusable.

There really is not that big a difference. Most d-weapons removed vehicles with ease already. MCs, etc. actually gained survivability. From a logic standpoint maybe they leap out of the way in time...where a slow vehicle cannot.

I dunno, I'm still gutted about the no save thing. Not quite sure how you're supposed to keep the Warlord alive which makes the assert making killing the enemy warlord worth 3VP a bit insane.

Except people don't do this. The most I've seen a single person bring is 12. And guess what? They died to orbital barrage assets, and flyers. For every stupid combo someone has...there is always a hard counter to be found in APOC.

Except Doomsday device spam. THAT was insane. I'm not surprised they've gone the way of the dodo. Still, I'd rather face 12 Basilisks than 2 Warlords. At least the Basilisks don't fire Vortex missiles and a lot of large D blasts per turn...

Firstly, this is outlook is horsegak. Secondly, these are exactly the tools you want to avoid playing regardless..whether it's a standard game or an APOC game. People that attempt this stupidity completely don't get APOC. At all. As for the money thing. APOC was always expensive as the game functions better with the use of formations in larger games. It's just the way it is. Money though has nothing to do with power levels as some of the smaller formations were actually better than the bigger ones. That may still be the case. My suggestion is to wait and see what the new book brings. IMHO, from what I've seen...they've already addressed some of the hang ups people had with the previous edition of APOC and that can only mean good things rather than bad.

Yeah, there's always a way to make 40 not fun and Apocalypse is no exception. We all know Apoc is an attempt to sell you otherwise redundant models but... isn't that true regardless? The entirety of 40k is designed to sell you more stuff - GW is still, at the end of the day, a business. A pretty badly run one IMO, but a business nonetheless. I think we'll see some fun additions and to be honest, that's all I was hoping for. If it doesn't float your boat or you think you wouldn't enjoy it, don't play it. It's your money, your time and your stuff to do as you please. It perfectly fine not to play it, just as it is to play it. I'd recommend it once at least but it's up to you.

Pulsa rockets were annoying because they slowed the game down. Power wise...they were average. They were pretty easy to kill with the right stuff. But yes, they could make the game stupid at times.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
Pulsa rockets were annoying because they slowed the game down. Power wise...they were average. They were pretty easy to kill with the right stuff. But yes, they could make the game stupid at times.

One or two are annoying. 11+ in a single game breaks the system.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
Pulsa rockets were annoying because they slowed the game down. Power wise...they were average. They were pretty easy to kill with the right stuff. But yes, they could make the game stupid at times.

One or two are annoying. 11+ in a single game breaks the system.

I believe that's a general rule for most units.

 CaptKaruthors wrote:
However, now that super heavies ignore shaken, stunned, immobilized, and weapon destroyed results...killing it outright is the only way to silence them.

And this is exactly the problem. D-weapons got better (even if only by a "meaningless" amount), while every other weapon got much worse (since only "explodes" results do anything). That means the relative power of the two is even more in favor of the D-weapons.

Again...most d-weapons did that already. Methinks you haven't played much apoc.

No, they really didn't. You needed a 4+ to kill a vehicle, so Shadowswords (the most common D-weapon) weren't all that reliable once you consider scatter chances, and even turbolaser Warhounds only had less than a 75% chance to kill (assuming they shot at two different targets). The simple fact is that under the old rules you'd probably still have some of the vehicles hit by a D-weapon, now they all die on a 2+.

Sadly thats just hyperbole. There are plenty of other weapons worth taking over d-weapons. Plasmablastguns, vulcan megabolters, etc. have their place for sure. More than anything now...there is a more even distribution of D-weapons as it looks like more basic formations can gain access to them. No longer are people needed to solely rely on titans.

That's not hyperbole at all. Plasma blastguns are worthless compared to turbolasers once you remember that cover exists, and it only gets worse now that D-weapons ignore invulnerable saves that the things you shoot with plasma blastguns tend to have. Vulcan megabolters are complete garbage, turbolasers beat them against every possible target. Etc. If you have a choice between a D-weapon and something else the correct choice is always the D-weapon unless you're deliberately making your army weaker to give your opponent a better chance.

Except people don't do this. The most I've seen a single person bring is 12. And guess what? They died to orbital barrage assets, and flyers. For every stupid combo someone has...there is always a hard counter to be found in APOC.

Yeah, everything has a counter if you have enough money. Which is the fundamental problem: people who buy specific armies for Apocalypse have a huge advantage over people who just bring their normal-40k collection.

Secondly, these are exactly the tools you want to avoid playing regardless..whether it's a standard game or an APOC game. People that attempt this stupidity completely don't get APOC. At all.

Oh yes, the same old "it's ok that the rules are complete garbage and GW's designers are lazy idiots because you're TFG if you exploit GW's mistakes and nobody will play you". Is it really that hard to see why it's better to have good rules than to depend on shunning people from the community if they play too competitively by your arbitrary standard?

Money though has nothing to do with power levels as some of the smaller formations were actually better than the bigger ones.

The point is that formations require you to buy stuff you probably won't use in normal 40k. It strongly favors the people who can afford to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on an expansion, while people who can only afford a standard-40k collection plus maybe an extra unit or two don't get all those benefits.

I just looked at my collection, and there's practically nothing I'd want to field in Apocalypse. One Baneblade, a few Russes, and that's it. What good is 3000 points of Guard infantry? Absolutely nothing. What's the use of three squads of Tactical marines with heavy bolters and flamers? Again, nothing. Should I take 1500 points of wych cult Dark Eldar? Hell no, they're already questionable in regular games, let alone anything larger.

Sure, taking a hundred infantry models might actually accomplish something, but I'd be using 90% of my time moving them and shooting with them when the actual battle is decided between super-units or 600+ point "deathstars" of terminators, Fire Dragons or the like.

I agree on some points.
The D6+6 seems too strong unless you are fighting Phantom Titans with 24 HP.
It’s even worse when we look at wounds! Seeing as wounds can only go to 10, you have a 1 in 12-chance to one-shot any non-vehicle model when you hit it. (6 followed by 4+)
Not quite fair if you think about it.
Remember that the C’tan is rumoured around 1k points Or the Tyranid Bio-Titan at around 1k points.
In my opinion it should have been D6+3 on a 6 or they should give GMC more than 10 wounds.

It’s really sad that inv-saves mean nothing to a D-shot.
Why pay 40 for a terminator if they die just as easily as a 6 point Ork-Boy?

Yeah, everything has a counter if you have enough money. Which is the fundamental problem: people who buy specific armies for Apocalypse have a huge advantage over people who just bring their normal-40k collection.

Don’t invite that person and laugh as his 2k dollar collection is collecting dust.
Life is pay to win, you cannot stop that behavior.
It’s useless to complain about that behavior in a game like Warhammer 40k.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
What good is 3000 points of Guard infantry?

You missed the part where you and your friends are going to have an awesome time with 3k points of infantry!
Apocalypse isn't about you spending money to win games, it's about you and your friends spending money to have a great time.

Who doesn't want to see a Tesseract Vault wiping away 50+ guardsmen, followed by those guardsmen firing everything they got at it while it crashed down on a pack of Orks?

macldef wrote:
You are right, its hard. Same with my Warhoundtitan. But its not one Hit. And this is all assuming that thing has 10 Hitpoints - wich i dont think it will have. The Nurgle-Kugath Greaterdaemon has 7 Hitpoints at about 300 Points...

Another thing: You can kill Titans/Superheavys just as quickly. 9 Hullpoints... no problem.

Yes, but does the 1000 point Bio-titan get D weapons?

Kangodo wrote:
Don’t invite that person and laugh as his 2k dollar collection is collecting dust.
Life is pay to win, you cannot stop that behavior.
It’s useless to complain about that behavior in a game like Warhammer 40k.

So, who cares if GW are lazy and write stupid rules, we can just shun anyone who plays too competitively by our arbitrary standards of what is too competitive? How exactly does this kind of lazy design make it worth paying for?

Who doesn't want to see a Tesseract Vault wiping away 50+ guardsmen, followed by those guardsmen firing everything they got at it while it crashed down on a pack of Orks?

Me. Why do I care about 50+ irrelevant guardsmen dying and their survivors trying to shoot the latest "buy a $150 model and win 40k" toy? I have a turbolaser Warhound that can take it off the table in one shot.

(Not that I'd bring the infantry in the first place, since the last thing Apocalypse needs is more tedious movement and dice rolling for giant horde units.)

So now formations are lazy and stupid because you feel forced to buy models you will probably never use in 40k since you desperately want to win at a game of Apocalypse?

Me. Why do I care about 50+ irrelevant guardsmen dying and their survivors trying to shoot the latest "buy a $150 model and win 40k" toy?

The vault will probably be around 800 points.
800 points of Guardsmen will wipe that thing off the table AND they cost more.

So now who is paying to win?
I'm actually spending 100 Euro on a model that I cannot use in a normal game ánd that gets easily tabled by models that can be brought to a normal game.

(Not that I'd bring the infantry in the first place, since the last thing Apocalypse needs is more tedious movement and dice rolling for giant horde units.)

In that case you really don't get the spirit of Apocalypse:
Apocalypse is a new way of playing games of Warhammer 40,000. Allowing you to field as many miniatures as you like, in any combination, there really are no limits to what you can do.

For what it's worth, I've played 4 Apocalypse games with my shadowsword now.

The only time it has ever hit anything is a single warhounds void shields. The rest of the time? Whoomph, the template sails off into the distance!

Hey guys!
You can find a lot of pics of the Apocalypse's Rulebook at this site
http://forofreakfactory.mforos.com/1035375/11241774-rumores-y-fotos-de-apocalipsis-en-julio-novedades-a-dia-09-julio/#103049376

Is there really anything left to discuss? The thread seems to have degenerated into an argument. Again.

I am a guard player, I have at this point around 8000pts of guard. I love apoc. I also usually field all of my 200+ infantry. They have their role on the field even amongst titans. My friends tend to own around 4-5000pts of their armies and at most 1 superheavy. We still play apoc, we play it quite a lot actually. We've never had a problem with needing the latest and greatest toy to play the game. We tend to use apoc to field all our collections or just to add a superheavy to the mix. If you dislike apoc, then don't play it, don't just sound off whining about broken weapons or whatnot being the only thing seen in peoples' lists, because that's a problem with the players, not the game. Find players of like mind to you and maybe limit the number of d-guns like we do in my group.


Edit: I'm looking forward to the new rules for superheavies since the introduction of 6th really weakened them. The thunderblitz looks interesting.

 Peregrine wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Don’t invite that person and laugh as his 2k dollar collection is collecting dust.
Life is pay to win, you cannot stop that behavior.
It’s useless to complain about that behavior in a game like Warhammer 40k.

So, who cares if GW are lazy and write stupid rules, we can just shun anyone who plays too competitively by our arbitrary standards of what is too competitive? How exactly does this kind of lazy design make it worth paying for?

The same can be said of literally any aspect of 40k. Why play Forge World? Why go to tournaments? Why talk to the other person? Why buy models instead of using cardboard cutouts? The answer is the same to all: people enjoy it and find it fun. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Don't moan that a game you aren't playing already doesn't interest you because you think it's unfair without even knowing the entire rule set.

Who doesn't want to see a Tesseract Vault wiping away 50+ guardsmen, followed by those guardsmen firing everything they got at it while it crashed down on a pack of Orks?

Me. Why do I care about 50+ irrelevant guardsmen dying and their survivors trying to shoot the latest "buy a $150 model and win 40k" toy? I have a turbolaser Warhound that can take it off the table in one shot.

(Not that I'd bring the infantry in the first place, since the last thing Apocalypse needs is more tedious movement and dice rolling for giant horde units.)

So you don't enjoy visualising battles as a struggle, you just play to win. That's fine but why are you trying to denegrate people based on how they wish to spend their money on toys? Come on, this is silly. You don't want to play apocalypse. Fine, whatever. Why are you still commenting in an Apocalypse thread then? It's obviously not your style of gameplay.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
Is there really anything left to discuss? The thread seems to have degenerated into an argument. Again.

Still waiting for pics of the fortification rules.

Having to deal with deploying and then quickly removing 50 guardsmen en-masse due to a necron thingy and then having a horde or orks come from nowhere doesn't sound much fun or very thematic.

 juanjopotro wrote:
Hey guys!
You can find a lot of pics of the Apocalypse's Rulebook at this place
http://forofreakfactory.mforos.com/1035375/11241774-rumores-y-fotos-de-apocalipsis-en-julio-novedades-a-dia-09-julio/#103049376

Sisters of Battle are listed on some of those pages. Yay!

Can I rehost the images here for convenience? Uploading them to photobucket now.

And here they are. Spoilered for tidyness.

I hate how they didn't make pictures of any model-rules :(


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 juanjopotro wrote:
Hey guys!
You can find a lot of pics of the Apocalypse's Rulebook at this site
http://forofreakfactory.mforos.com/1035375/11241774-rumores-y-fotos-de-apocalipsis-en-julio-novedades-a-dia-09-julio/#103049376

I love you

 Vaktathi wrote:
Having to deal with deploying and then quickly removing 50 guardsmen en-masse due to a necron thingy and then having a horde or orks come from nowhere doesn't sound much fun or very thematic.

to me.
You forgot two words at the end of that sentence

I would also advice you against buying anything Apocalypse-related, as it's obviously not the game-mode for you.

Oh wow dat intervention chart.

Also gosh darn it the tau SA was cut off

 juanjopotro wrote:
Hey guys!
You can find a lot of pics of the Apocalypse's Rulebook at this site
http://forofreakfactory.mforos.com/1035375/11241774-rumores-y-fotos-de-apocalipsis-en-julio-novedades-a-dia-09-julio/#103049376

You should give credit to the Chinese forum, that posted them first.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Ozymandias wrote:
(or pulsa rockets in the old apoc book)

I see you've heard the song of Reece's people.

I believe he was involved in that game while living down here. I managed to avoid it, I was there for just the aftermath.

 Ozymandias wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Ozymandias wrote:
(or pulsa rockets in the old apoc book)

I see you've heard the song of Reece's people.

I believe he was involved in that game while living down here. I managed to avoid it, I was there for just the aftermath.

I know, I was involved, too.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
Anyone saw those formations they're selling (without many bundle price reductions)?

I am just wondering what people think of that...I mean it's one thing to have bought models during a period of time and then bring'em all in for a game..this is, I believe, the point of Apocalypse...it's another to spend 600$ to get that tank company or that infantry/heavy weapon company just to play a game right off the bat...and without any discount as well, seems almost..cheap.

That's because they're hoping that they will be able to take advantage of their customers. I find that it is easier (a no more expensive)to buy the units separately, which has the added benefit that you have some time to paint each unit.

I really want to read what World Digestion does for Tyranids.

 -Loki- wrote:
I really want to read what World Digestion does for Tyranids.

I think I've got it:
"Use this Strategic Asset before deployment. All Forests, Jungles and Woods are dangerous terrain for non-Tyranid models in addition to any other rules that apply."

Pretty bad IMO, but not as bad as that Necron Star Pulse...

Dose anyone have the rules for the Aquila strongpoint, Vengance weapons battery & Firestorm Redoubt for normal 40K?

All Gargantuan creatures just got FNP. Damn, Heirophant just got very hard to kill...

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
All Gargantuan creatures just got FNP. Damn, Heirophant just got very hard to kill...

If the new D weapon rules are true, maybe not so much

D weapon damage chart=
1 = vehicles- penetrating hit, SHV- no effect non-vehicles- no wounds
2-5 = vehicles- explodes, SHV- D3+1 Hull points lost, Non-Vehicles- D3+1 wounds
6 = Vehicles- explodes, SHV- D6+6 hullpoints, Non-vehicles- D6+6 wounds

NO SAVES ALLOWED

I finally get to see the eldar wraithknight datasheet, and it doesnt even give what the special rule does :(

Hope someone can find it, or i'll just wait for saturday.

Already have a game planned, with one D weapon per player max.

 Billagio wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
All Gargantuan creatures just got FNP. Damn, Heirophant just got very hard to kill...

If the new D weapon rules are true, maybe not so much

Yeah I was about to say that, here's hoping they're not and/or they got a lot rarer...

 Billagio wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
All Gargantuan creatures just got FNP. Damn, Heirophant just got very hard to kill...

If the new D weapon rules are true, maybe not so much

I'm still holding out hope they reduce the amount of D strength weapons, hopefully limited to Reaver and bigger titans, and a few outliers like the Shadowsword.

*Looks at the World eaters Sons of the Primarch trait...

Well,...once again we don't something really exciting...,not bad, but not great...

Also it seems that the Khorne strategic asset( the one that forced all ennemy units in 24" to run and charge if they could) is also gone...

Eyjio wrote:
So you don't enjoy visualising battles as a struggle, you just play to win. That's fine but why are you trying to denegrate people based on how they wish to spend their money on toys? Come on, this is silly. You don't want to play apocalypse. Fine, whatever. Why are you still commenting in an Apocalypse thread then? It's obviously not your style of gameplay.

That's completely missing the point. I want to play Apocalypse, I've spent well over a thousand dollars and a lot of painting hours on superheavies and I don't just want to keep them on my display shelf. What I do not like is that instead of improving Apocalypse GW seems to be pushing it even farther in the direction of "whoever spends the most money wins". It's nice to talk about how much fun thematic armies are, and the image of battle and all that, but that doesn't excuse lazy rules design that allows anyone with enough money to show up and ruin the game. The players should not have to resort to social shunning to keep people within some arbitrary ideal of balance, the game should be functional and fun no matter how competitively you play it.

Just read the Blood Angels sons of the Primarch chart, and now you Mephiston can actually be the Monsterous Creature he has always wanted to be.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
*Looks at the World eaters Sons of the Primarch trait...

Well,...once again we don't something really exciting...,not bad, but not great...

Also it seems that the Khorne strategic asset( the one that forced all ennemy units in 24" to run and charge if they could) is also gone...

Khorne consistently has gotten boned in 6th edition both with bad models and bad rules and you were expecting anything different from apocalypse? Of course frankly I would not have been surprised if their Finest Hour gave rage...

That being said, I did notice an All Out Attack blurb that allowed you to move triple your normal distance and charge, but you couldn't shoot. No too bad for World Eaters!

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
*Looks at the World eaters Sons of the Primarch trait...

Well,...once again we don't something really exciting...,not bad, but not great...

Also it seems that the Khorne strategic asset( the one that forced all ennemy units in 24" to run and charge if they could) is also gone...

Khorne consistently has gotten boned in 6th edition both with bad models and bad rules and you were expecting anything different from apocalypse? Of course frankly I would not have been surprised if their Finest Hour gave rage...

That being said, I did notice an All Out Attack blurb that allowed you to move triple your normal distance and charge, but you couldn't shoot. No too bad for World Eaters!

Surprisingly Tzeentch got some love with the Chaos Altar, 2++ commanders with 3++ terminators/Daemons with the mark of Tzeentch.

Not to mention the Mastery Level 5 Sons of the Primarch rule. (With sorcerer) or level 2 chaos lord.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
*Looks at the World eaters Sons of the Primarch trait...

Well,...once again we don't something really exciting...,not bad, but not great...

Also it seems that the Khorne strategic asset( the one that forced all ennemy units in 24" to run and charge if they could) is also gone...

Khorne consistently has gotten boned in 6th edition both with bad models and bad rules and you were expecting anything different from apocalypse? Of course frankly I would not have been surprised if their Finest Hour gave rage...

That being said, I did notice an All Out Attack blurb that allowed you to move triple your normal distance and charge, but you couldn't shoot. No too bad for World Eaters!

Surprisingly Tzeentch got some love with the Chaos Altar, 2++ commanders with 3++ terminators/Daemons with the mark of Tzeentch.

Not to mention the Mastery Level 5 Sons of the Primarch rule. (With sorcerer) or level 2 chaos lord.

Yeah that Finest Hour is very nice! You could get a Level 6 Ahriman which is pretty sweet.

Also I didn't notice the Chaos Altar, though I assume it gives your dudes +1 to their invulnerable save! That's especially good for Tzeentchian daemons too.

That feel when even the horus heresy world eaters got by far the worst legion rules...

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
*Looks at the World eaters Sons of the Primarch trait...

Well,...once again we don't something really exciting...,not bad, but not great...

Also it seems that the Khorne strategic asset( the one that forced all ennemy units in 24" to run and charge if they could) is also gone...

Khorne consistently has gotten boned in 6th edition both with bad models and bad rules and you were expecting anything different from apocalypse? Of course frankly I would not have been surprised if their Finest Hour gave rage...

That being said, I did notice an All Out Attack blurb that allowed you to move triple your normal distance and charge, but you couldn't shoot. No too bad for World Eaters!

Surprisingly Tzeentch got some love with the Chaos Altar, 2++ commanders with 3++ terminators/Daemons with the mark of Tzeentch.

Not to mention the Mastery Level 5 Sons of the Primarch rule. (With sorcerer) or level 2 chaos lord.

Yeah that Finest Hour is very nice! You could get a Level 6 Ahriman which is pretty sweet.

Also I didn't notice the Chaos Altar, though I assume it gives your dudes +1 to their invulnerable save! That's especially good for Tzeentchian daemons too.

That feel when even the horus heresy world eaters got by far the worst legion rules...

I think the Chaos altar is CSM specific.

But if you want some good Daemon Stuff, there's a thing for CSM that restores D3 Daemon Units for free (Giving them actual synergy between the two, YOU SEE THAT KELLY, THESE PEOPLE KNOW CHAOS)

Also, that badass Daemon Shell.

They must've thought "Hmm, we should make a powerful artifact..Hmm, lets enchant a bolter shell, make it ****ing awesome, and can be fired from a bolt pistol and do incredible S damage with a massive blast"

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
*Looks at the World eaters Sons of the Primarch trait...

Well,...once again we don't something really exciting...,not bad, but not great...

Also it seems that the Khorne strategic asset( the one that forced all ennemy units in 24" to run and charge if they could) is also gone...

Khorne consistently has gotten boned in 6th edition both with bad models and bad rules and you were expecting anything different from apocalypse? Of course frankly I would not have been surprised if their Finest Hour gave rage...

That being said, I did notice an All Out Attack blurb that allowed you to move triple your normal distance and charge, but you couldn't shoot. No too bad for World Eaters!

Surprisingly Tzeentch got some love with the Chaos Altar, 2++ commanders with 3++ terminators/Daemons with the mark of Tzeentch.

Not to mention the Mastery Level 5 Sons of the Primarch rule. (With sorcerer) or level 2 chaos lord.

Yeah that Finest Hour is very nice! You could get a Level 6 Ahriman which is pretty sweet.

Also I didn't notice the Chaos Altar, though I assume it gives your dudes +1 to their invulnerable save! That's especially good for Tzeentchian daemons too.

That feel when even the horus heresy world eaters got by far the worst legion rules...

I think the Chaos altar is CSM specific.

But if you want some good Daemon Stuff, there's a thing for CSM that restores D3 Daemon Units for free (Giving them actual synergy between the two, YOU SEE THAT KELLY, THESE PEOPLE KNOW CHAOS)

Also, that badass Daemon Shell.

They must've thought "Hmm, we should make a powerful artifact..Hmm, lets enchant a bolter shell, make it ****ing awesome, and can be fired from a bolt pistol and do incredible S damage with a massive blast"

U wot m80?
I'm not seeing those listed anywhere, but the regenerating Daemon units is both awesome and needed since you can't take invul saves against D weapons!

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
*Looks at the World eaters Sons of the Primarch trait...

Well,...once again we don't something really exciting...,not bad, but not great...

Also it seems that the Khorne strategic asset( the one that forced all ennemy units in 24" to run and charge if they could) is also gone...

Khorne consistently has gotten boned in 6th edition both with bad models and bad rules and you were expecting anything different from apocalypse? Of course frankly I would not have been surprised if their Finest Hour gave rage...

That being said, I did notice an All Out Attack blurb that allowed you to move triple your normal distance and charge, but you couldn't shoot. No too bad for World Eaters!

Surprisingly Tzeentch got some love with the Chaos Altar, 2++ commanders with 3++ terminators/Daemons with the mark of Tzeentch.

Not to mention the Mastery Level 5 Sons of the Primarch rule. (With sorcerer) or level 2 chaos lord.

Yeah that Finest Hour is very nice! You could get a Level 6 Ahriman which is pretty sweet.

Also I didn't notice the Chaos Altar, though I assume it gives your dudes +1 to their invulnerable save! That's especially good for Tzeentchian daemons too.

That feel when even the horus heresy world eaters got by far the worst legion rules...

I think the Chaos altar is CSM specific.

But if you want some good Daemon Stuff, there's a thing for CSM that restores D3 Daemon Units for free (Giving them actual synergy between the two, YOU SEE THAT KELLY, THESE PEOPLE KNOW CHAOS)

Also, that badass Daemon Shell.

They must've thought "Hmm, we should make a powerful artifact..Hmm, lets enchant a bolter shell, make it ****ing awesome, and can be fired from a bolt pistol and do incredible S damage with a massive blast"

U wot m80?
I'm not seeing those listed anywhere, but the regenerating Daemon units is both awesome and needed since you can't take invul saves against D weapons!

http://i1350.photobucket.com/albums/p770/juanjopotro/ap27_zpse1970e0c.jpg

The Strategic Assets page.

 SickSix wrote:
D weapon damage chart=
1 = vehicles- penetrating hit, SHV- no effect non-vehicles- no wounds
2-5 = vehicles- explodes, SHV- D3+1 Hull points lost, Non-Vehicles- D3+1 wounds
6 = Vehicles- explodes, SHV- D6+6 hullpoints, Non-vehicles- D6+6 wounds

NO SAVES ALLOWED

How to play Apocalypse in 5 easy steps:

Step 1: Purchase a large number of Citadel™ Miniatures™, put them together with official Citadel™ Glue™, paint them with official Citadel™ Paints™ using official Citadel™ Brushes™.
Step 2: Spend 1-2 hours deploying tens of thousands of points of Citadel™ Miniatures™ on your Realm of Battle™ Citadel™ Playing Surface after covering it with officially produced Citadel™ Terrain™.
Step 3: Place your official Apocalyptic Blast Marker™ over a large part of your opponent's army.
Step 4: Your opponent now removes the Citadel™ Miniatures™ that have been killed before they could do anything because of the Strength™ D™ rules.
Step 5: Continue repeating Steps 3 and 4 until all players have Forged a Narrative™ and had lots of Cinematic™ fun.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
*Looks at the World eaters Sons of the Primarch trait...

Well,...once again we don't something really exciting...,not bad, but not great...

Could be worse. It could be the Night Lord ability that most armies in the game flat out ignore.

Personally i think invul saves are still allowed against D weapons as in the latest 6th addition FAQ/Errata they do specifically state you can always take invul saves regardless even if it says 'no saves of any kind allowed' which it does in this case, since this is an expansion to 40k we still use those rules unless they specifically tell us not too.

Khorne consistently has gotten boned in 6th edition both with bad models and bad rules and you were expecting anything different from apocalypse?

Speaking of Khorne getting boned (the only bone he likes is the skull after all), I have not seen a thing about either the Brass Scorpion or the Tower Of Skulls for this new 2nd Edition Apocalypse. Those were two popular conversions for Apocalypse, especially the Brass Scorpion. It would be most annoying for their to be no datasheets for those in the new Apocalypse.

I built three Brass Scorpions for myself, gave clinics on how to do it, had a builders' guide on the US GW website for the first six months of 2008 and have even built some for other people. There are a lot of expensive Brass Scorpion conversions out there that are going to be collecting dust if they have no datasheet now.

 BrassScorpion wrote:

Khorne consistently has gotten boned in 6th edition both with bad models and bad rules and you were expecting anything different from apocalypse?

Speaking of Khorne getting boned (the only bone he likes is the skull after all), I have not seen a thing about either the Brass Scorpion or the Tower Of Skulls for this new 2nd Edition Apocalypse. Those were two popular conversions for Apocalypse, especially the Brass Scorpion. It would be most annoying to for their to be no datasheets for those in the new Apocalypse.

I built three Brass Scorpions for myself, gave clinics on how to do it, had a builders' guide on the US GW website for the first six months of 2008 and have even built some for other people. There are a lot of expensive Brass Scorpion conversions out there that are going to be collecting dust if they have no datasheet now.

Use the old datasheet.

Userarm wrote:
Personally i think invul saves are still allowed against D weapons as in the latest 6th addition FAQ/Errata they do specifically state you can always take invul saves regardless even if it says 'no saves of any kind allowed' which it does, since this is an expansion to 40k we still use those rules unless they specifically tell us not too.

No, it says you can always take an invulnerable save even if it says no armor saves are allowed. There's nothing that suggests that you can still take an invulnerable save even if no saves of any kind are allowed (for example, against a Riptide's self-inflicted wounds).

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 BrassScorpion wrote:

Khorne consistently has gotten boned in 6th edition both with bad models and bad rules and you were expecting anything different from apocalypse?

Speaking of Khorne getting boned (the only bone he likes is the skull after all), I have not seen a thing about either the Brass Scorpion or the Tower Of Skulls for this new 2nd Edition Apocalypse. Those were two popular conversions for Apocalypse, especially the Brass Scorpion. It would be most annoying to for their to be no datasheets for those in the new Apocalypse.

I built three Brass Scorpions for myself, gave clinics on how to do it, had a builders' guide on the US GW website for the first six months of 2008 and have even built some for other people. There are a lot of expensive Brass Scorpion conversions out there that are going to be collecting dust if they have no datasheet now.

Use the old datasheet.

^^^^^^ This I will be using the old datasheets until if\when GW decides to update them.

Just because every data sheet isn't in the new book, doesn't mean they are not still usable. Far from it.

Nurgle Plague Tower and all of the Forge World Daemon Lords immediately come to mind.

Hey everyone, just wondering, I intend to buy the new apoc book this saturday and I own the Imperial Armor Apocalypse 2nd edition book, those 2 books combined I have all the rule sets I need? Because I noticed that for example some of the FW Daemon Lords have some special rules that are not in the Imperial Armor book. Would I be required to ALSO getting an old Apocalypse rulebook, or would it be likely that those special rules reappear in the new apoc book?

Somehow I doubt the Brass Scorpion will be left out, seeing as how FW has an official model of it out now.

aliusexalio wrote:
Hey everyone, just wondering, I intend to buy the new apoc book this saturday and I own the Imperial Armor Apocalypse 2nd edition book, those 2 books combined I have all the rule sets I need? Because I noticed that for example some of the FW Daemon Lords have some special rules that are not in the Imperial Armor book. Would I be required to ALSO getting an old Apocalypse rulebook, or would it be likely that those special rules reappear in the new apoc book?

We have no idea. FW will be releasing a new IA Apocalypse book soon, but beyond that we have no idea what units will be getting new rules (or even included at all).

Another thing I'm noticing when it comes to the list of datasheets that are supposedly in this book, they are not encouraging converting. After all, that's what made things like the Tower Of Skulls and Brass Scorpion fun, you had to come up with a way to build them yourself from other kits. Same for Plague Tower Of Nurgle, Plaguereaper, etc.

It seems that all the new datasheets in the new Apocalypse book are just sheets for stock models, there aren't really sheets for converted builds. There's no encouragement therefore to go crazy kit bashing. It wasn't necessary before for people not up to it as there were plenty of datasheets for stock models, but there were also sheets for those of us nutty hobbyists who like to make wild conversions. It doesn't appear there's any encouragement via datasheets to do that now.

 BrassScorpion wrote:
Another thing I'm noticing when it comes to the list of datasheets that are supposedly in this book, they are not encouraging converting. After all, that's what made things like the Tower Of Skulls and Brass Scorpion fun, you had to come up with a way to build them yourself from other kits. Same for Plague Tower Of Nurgle, Plaguereaper, etc.

It seems that all the new datasheets in the new Apocalypse book are just sheets for stock models, there aren't really sheets for converted builds. There's no encouragement therefore to go crazy kit bashing. It wasn't necessary before for people not up to it as there were plenty of datasheets for stock models, but there were also sheets for those of us nutty hobbyists who like to make wild conversions. It doesn't appear there's any encouragement via datasheets to do that now.

Seems like another "no new rules with an accompanying model" thing to me.

Peregrine thanks for clarifying that, still may have to house rule it in otherwise with my new Vault and Trancendent C'tan running around my cousins may be tabled too quickly and its not much fun when that happens.

 BrassScorpion wrote:
It seems that all the new datasheets in the new Apocalypse book are just sheets for stock models, there aren't really sheets for converted builds. There's no encouragement therefore to go crazy kit bashing. It wasn't necessary before for people not up to it as there were plenty of datasheets for stock models, but there were also sheets for those of us nutty hobbyists who like to make wild conversions. It doesn't appear there's any encouragement via datasheets to do that now.

Well yeah.. ofcourse they do that.
Could you imagine how pissed off SoB-players would be if they don't bother making formations for them when they DO make rules for stuff they don't even have models of?

 BrassScorpion wrote:
Speaking of Khorne getting boned (the only bone he likes is the skull after all), I have not seen a thing about either the Brass Scorpion or the Tower Of Skulls for this new 2nd Edition Apocalypse.

Do GW sell kits for either?

Exactly. So they won't get rules. We'll get to keep the Greater Brass Scorp, 'cause FW still makes that.

 BrassScorpion wrote:
Another thing I'm noticing when it comes to the list of datasheets that are supposedly in this book, they are not encouraging converting. After all, that's what made things like the Tower Of Skulls and Brass Scorpion fun, you had to come up with a way to build them yourself from other kits. Same for Plague Tower Of Nurgle, Plaguereaper, etc.

The Chapterhouse lawsuit has made them gunshy. They're only releasing rules for models they have in production, mostly to avoid the issue of someone else, like Chapterhouse, beating them to a release.

However, it's perfect fodder for another 'vehicle design rules' type supplement. I'd adore that.

If they've already got rules I highly doubt they'd drop them from the book. GW, for all their faults, very rarely indeed actually drops units/datasheets entirely from the game. I would imagine they have a guide for converting old datasheets for use in the new edition.

Besides, it's Apocalypse. The whole point is to come up with your own crazy formations and super-heavies. Just convert the old datasheets, or come up with a brand new one.

Kangodo wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
What good is 3000 points of Guard infantry?

You missed the part where you and your friends are going to have an awesome time with 3k points of infantry!
Apocalypse isn't about you spending money to win games, it's about you and your friends spending money to have a great time.

Who doesn't want to see a Tesseract Vault wiping away 50+ guardsmen, followed by those guardsmen firing everything they got at it while it crashed down on a pack of Orks?

While I agree with your point of view, the fact of the matter is I never played a game of apocalypse where 3000 points of guard infantry (or most other factions infantry) really made any sort of difference whatsoever (unless they were heavy weapon teams, etc.). Really what it boils down to is that they are way outclassed power-wise by the "big ticket" items that everyone fields, and are so easy to remove from the table en-masse that there only real purpose is to slow the game down. We ran a couple apoc games in my area that were vehicles only and the games not only moved far faster but were far more enjoyable for everyone (most people don't realize how much of a downer it is to remove 100+ infantry minis from the table in one phase, right after you just finished setting them up).

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Vladsimpaler wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
*Looks at the World eaters Sons of the Primarch trait...

Well,...once again we don't something really exciting...,not bad, but not great...

Also it seems that the Khorne strategic asset( the one that forced all ennemy units in 24" to run and charge if they could) is also gone...

Khorne consistently has gotten boned in 6th edition both with bad models and bad rules and you were expecting anything different from apocalypse? Of course frankly I would not have been surprised if their Finest Hour gave rage...

That being said, I did notice an All Out Attack blurb that allowed you to move triple your normal distance and charge, but you couldn't shoot. No too bad for World Eaters!

Surprisingly Tzeentch got some love with the Chaos Altar, 2++ commanders with 3++ terminators/Daemons with the mark of Tzeentch.

Not to mention the Mastery Level 5 Sons of the Primarch rule. (With sorcerer) or level 2 chaos lord.

Yeah that Finest Hour is very nice! You could get a Level 6 Ahriman which is pretty sweet.

Also I didn't notice the Chaos Altar, though I assume it gives your dudes +1 to their invulnerable save! That's especially good for Tzeentchian daemons too.

That feel when even the horus heresy world eaters got by far the worst legion rules...

I think the Chaos altar is CSM specific.

But if you want some good Daemon Stuff, there's a thing for CSM that restores D3 Daemon Units for free (Giving them actual synergy between the two, YOU SEE THAT KELLY, THESE PEOPLE KNOW CHAOS)

Also, that badass Daemon Shell.

They must've thought "Hmm, we should make a powerful artifact..Hmm, lets enchant a bolter shell, make it ****ing awesome, and can be fired from a bolt pistol and do incredible S damage with a massive blast"

The Daemon shell is old news, it was in Apoc Reload (I know this because I once watched a friend join Tigurius to a squad of Chaos Marines with a Lord w/ Daemon Shell, Tigurius then used that deep strike movement power thing and teleported inside of a Reaver Titans Void Shields, the Lord fired the Daemon Shell and after a few lucky rolls was down all its weapon systems and clinging to life on one hull point).

Personally i think invul saves are still allowed against D weapons as in the latest 6th addition FAQ/Errata they do specifically state you can always take invul saves regardless even if it says 'no saves of any kind allowed' which it does in this case, since this is an expansion to 40k we still use those rules unless they specifically tell us not too.

...unless the rules for the weapon specifically state no invulnerable saves are allowed. It doesn't matter what the Errata/FAQ says anyway, as specific rules trump general rules, and in this case its pretty clear what the design intent was.

 Squigsquasher wrote:
If they've already got rules I highly doubt they'd drop them from the book. GW, for all their faults, very rarely indeed actually drops units/datasheets entirely from the game. I would imagine they have a guide for converting old datasheets for use in the new edition.

Besides, it's Apocalypse. The whole point is to come up with your own crazy formations and super-heavies. Just convert the old datasheets, or come up with a brand new one.

That was the OLD apocalypse. This is the new apocalypse, this apocalypse is much more structured then the previous one is, that should be very easily apparent. This is more about large games then it is about crazy scenarios.

As for the Brass Scorpion, remember that there is a FW datasheet for it, so no big loss. ALSO, keep in mind that with the "Warzone" release system, you'll likely have the opportunity to give GW an additional $50 in exchange for just such a datasheet (and others!)

Could be worse. It could be the Night Lord ability that most armies in the game flat out ignore.

The fear is worthless, but it does force psychic test re-rolls with it's "Reroll all successful leadership tests" bubble, so the leadership thing does have some use.

I'm expecting a Chaos "Warzone" supplement to come out with all the old things, just as the Armageddon one has the Titan rules. Those things may not directly have models but they did a good job of selling otherwise disinterested people the new shiny Baneblade kits.

Also, that Infinite Phalanx for Necrons looks a little OTT. Fearless (so always allowed RP unless wiped or D weaponed) plus relentless (because why not) plus it all counts as a blob unit? Mental. That's BEFORE the buffs to RP...

Eyjio wrote:
Also, that Infinite Phalanx for Necrons looks a little OTT. Fearless (so always allowed RP unless wiped or D weaponed) plus relentless (because why not) plus it all counts as a blob unit? Mental. That's BEFORE the buffs to RP...

With the added downside of spending around 2k points on Necron Warriors
It's quite fluffy and I like it, there is nothing I would fear more in RL than facing 150 killer robots!

Oh, don't get me wrong, I love the idea and I don't think it's broken at all as they'll all need to fire at the same thing. Just imagine it though: 180 Warriors and Zahndrekh joining them with a res orb. With tank hunters, they do 36 hull points in a turn on average. Sure it's redundant but you can still march up in a massive line to wall off anything else you've taken - they are fearless after all, so not afraid of assault. If the enemy can't whittle them down past 150, they'd pass RP on a 2+. Makes Necron infantry worth taking, which they otherwise wouldn't be IMO. Just seems a little crazy they all become one unit!

Eyjio wrote:
Oh, don't get me wrong, I love the idea and I don't think it's broken at all as they'll all need to fire at the same thing. Just imagine it though: 180 Warriors and Zahndrekh joining them with a res orb. With tank hunters, they do 36 hull points in a turn on average. Sure it's redundant but you can still march up in a massive line to wall off anything else you've taken - they are fearless after all, so not afraid of assault. If the enemy can't whittle them down past 150, they'd pass RP on a 2+. Makes Necron infantry worth taking, which they otherwise wouldn't be IMO. Just seems a little crazy they all become one unit!

Necron blob, meet Furioso Dreadnought. Just need some way to block the overwatch....

Assault with 2 of em. They'll pop one and the other gets in to destroy the entire unit in one assault phase.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
Oh, don't get me wrong, I love the idea and I don't think it's broken at all as they'll all need to fire at the same thing. Just imagine it though: 180 Warriors and Zahndrekh joining them with a res orb. With tank hunters, they do 36 hull points in a turn on average. Sure it's redundant but you can still march up in a massive line to wall off anything else you've taken - they are fearless after all, so not afraid of assault. If the enemy can't whittle them down past 150, they'd pass RP on a 2+. Makes Necron infantry worth taking, which they otherwise wouldn't be IMO. Just seems a little crazy they all become one unit!

Necron blob, meet Furioso Dreadnought. Just need some way to block the overwatch....

Easy. Charge them with 2 Furiso Dreadnoughts. They can only shoot one

Ninja'd by rigeld2

That's why you should add at least 5 Lords!

Extra fun: Put 150+ Warriors on the Tomb Citadel with a Res Orb.
You have RP2+ and you can reroll the 1's.

Nevermind, the Orb doesn't lower the number you need.. It tells us they pass the test on a 4+

But still: 3+ RP with rerolls on the 1.
If 36 Warriors die, you will have 6 who stay dead and 2 who fail the reroll.
So 28 out of 36 get back up!

I must have missed it. Where are you seeing the rules for the Infinite Phalanx?

It's a secret GW might sue them!

 MoonlightSonata wrote:
I must have missed it. Where are you seeing the rules for the Infinite Phalanx?

I think it was earlier in the thread. It was a leaked formation screenshot.

I did some sleuthing and found the info here:

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/apocalypse-qna-happening-now.html

Here's the relevant info for us Necron players:

Tesseract vault - 14AV all around. Points cost is 315 but can double up delending on what powers you choose (up to 2). One of them is a 48" S8 AP3 Heavy 6D6 attack, another is a hellstorm template S: D ap1.

Obelisk gravity pulse: all flyers or skimmer within 24" suffer a S8 Ap4 on the side armour. Also has four weapons (the tesla spheres at the corners)

Infinite Phalanx: They all get fearless and relentless. They all form a single unit. If its more than 100 necrons they gain fear. If theres 100 models they pass reanimation on 4+, if 150 on 3+

The War Council of Mandragora: It's a bit complicated, there 6 conditions to be met, you roll 3 dice to see which ones you need to achieve, each one that you do grants you a strategic asset but you have to do them in the order rolled. If you complete all 3 you get D3 victory points so it's a nice formation.

The Baleful Necroplis: consists of 8 monoliths and 1 tesseract vault. The vault will have an extra S: D weapon and each monolith close to it can increase it's range. Any monolith close to the vault also gets it will not die and 6+ inv and then increases upo to 4+ inv depending on how many monoliths are close.

All spelling and grammar mistakes are courtesy of the guy on Faet212.

 MoonlightSonata wrote:
I must have missed it. Where are you seeing the rules for the Infinite Phalanx?

I was using this: http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/apocalypse-qna-happening-now.html

I'll quote my question and the answer I got here:

Q: What does the infinite phalanx do for Necrons?

A: They all get fearless and relentless. They all form a single unit. If its more than 100 necrons they gain fear. If theres 100 models they pass reanimation on 4+, if 150 on 3+

Ok I am surprised not many have seen this in the Dakka Gallery.

Someone do this... immediately:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/512181-Possible%20conversion%3F.html

We have seen it actually. Many times.

fidel wrote:
Ok I am surprised not many have seen this in the Dakka Gallery.

Someone do this... immediately:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/512181-Possible%20conversion%3F.html

It's in this thread. Perhaps read it?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
We have seen it actually. Many times.

It was also on the front page of BOLS the other day.

I heard on another site a rumor that there was a limit for super-heavies/gargantuan creatures, something like only one for every 2000 points. Can anyone confirm/disprove this?

I can't see that being true

Well even if they had a limit on super heavies, one per 2000 points, it's not gonna change much. Seeing the new Khornemower is close to a 1000 points with upgrades.

So i gotta field a landraider with terminators when i field my reaver titan... Okay sounds about fair.

Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 BrassScorpion wrote:

Khorne consistently has gotten boned in 6th edition both with bad models and bad rules and you were expecting anything different from apocalypse?

Speaking of Khorne getting boned (the only bone he likes is the skull after all), I have not seen a thing about either the Brass Scorpion or the Tower Of Skulls for this new 2nd Edition Apocalypse. Those were two popular conversions for Apocalypse, especially the Brass Scorpion. It would be most annoying to for their to be no datasheets for those in the new Apocalypse.

I built three Brass Scorpions for myself, gave clinics on how to do it, had a builders' guide on the US GW website for the first six months of 2008 and have even built some for other people. There are a lot of expensive Brass Scorpion conversions out there that are going to be collecting dust if they have no datasheet now.

Use the old datasheet.

Talked about this with the friends who play Apoc,( and we try to stay Fluff 'n Fun when playing Apoc, no competitif mindset, only the crazy ideas that we want to do), we agreed that if those two weren't in the new book or on GW site, we would update them to be on par with other Deamon machines; Deamon, It Will Not Die, Deamonforge, and simply convert the SP's into HP's, 1 SP=3 HP.

And also maybe change or limite the D-weapons, din't really discused about it yet.

Apparently the rules for those are in the Collector's edition additional warzone along with things like the plaguereaper so who knows how long till the rest of us get our hands on that. Might be a few months, might be a looooooong arse time.

 Peregrine wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Whats the deal with D strength now?

Now ignores all saves (including invulnerable saves) and save-like abilities (FNP, reanimation protocols, etc) and against non-superheavy vehicles auto-kills on a 2+ instead of just inflicting a penetrating hit. They also strip multiple HP from superheavy vehicles, but the standard competitive apocalypse strategy is still going to be deep striking mass melta to kill superheavies while D-weapon titans erase entire armies of smaller stuff from the table.

Needless to say, anyone who plays apocalypse regularly is going to house rule a D-weapon nerf.

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!

Oh wait...I forgot to read stuff first. FAQ states you can take Invulns against things that allow 'no saves of any kind', and it isn't specifically listed as ignoring Invulns. So here is the ACTUAL difference to D-Weapons:

Against vehicles - Better
Against superheavy vehicles - Better
Against Gargantuans - Better
Against MCs - Worse
Against Infantry(with or without Invulns) - Much Worse

The change is obviously designed to use your Destroyer weapons to target vehicle-style models and take other weapon-types to deal with infantry. Which, if you played any number of Apoc games prior, you can easily realize was the change that needed to be made. The idea that it was meant to kill hard targets but was super-awesome and pulling anything off of the table except for Gargantuan creatures before was making it spammed. Now you can spam D-weapons all you want but those Titanhammer Squads, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Nobs, BigNids will rip you a new one if you didn't bring supporting fire units that you didn't need before. It changes Apoc for the better and brings infantry back into the fold.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:


The sky is falling, the sky is falling!

Oh wait...I forgot to read stuff first. FAQ states you can take Invulns against things that allow 'no saves of any kind', and it isn't specifically listed as ignoring Invulns.

Citation needed.

Edit: Actual FAQ text:

Even if a Wound, penetrating hit or glancing hit ignores all armour saves, an invulnerable save can still be taken”.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Oh wait...I forgot to read stuff first.

Yup. You sure did.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Against Infantry(with or without Invulns) - Much Worse

But still better than every other weapon type. Sure you need a 2+ to wound now, but so does every other weapon, and those weapons don't ignore all saves. If you want to kill infantry you take D-weapons.

The change is obviously designed to use your Destroyer weapons to target vehicle-style models and take other weapon-types to deal with infantry.

And that's the problem: D-weapons are meant to target ALL vehicles. What GW should have done is make them non-blast weapons so they're only used to kill single high-priority targets like titans/Land Raiders full of HQ death stars/etc. But instead they get even better at removing multiple smaller vehicles with a single shot. So no matter what vehicles you want to kill you take a D-weapon.

Now you can spam D-weapons all you want but those Titanhammer Squads, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Nobs, BigNids will rip you a new one if you didn't bring supporting fire units that you didn't need before. It changes Apoc for the better and brings infantry back into the fold.

As xttz already pointed out, the FAQ does NOT say what you think it says. D-weapons ignore invulnerable saves, which means they're still the default solution to removing all those tough elite units. And now they're even better than they used to be, needing a 2+ to wound is more than offset by now ignoring invulnerable saves.

Random but looking through the Sons of the Primarch chart, I see the Word Bearers have potentially one of the most powerful abilities: Take control of an unengaged enemy unit within 24" of the warlord (presumably to represent the unit defecting). There is no mention of this control being temporary.

Somehow get the warlord within 24" and you can take control of an opponent's Titan or their deathstar unit.

Iracundus wrote:
Random but looking through the Sons of the Primarch chart, I see the Word Bearers have potentially one of the most powerful abilities: Take control of an unengaged enemy unit within 24" of the warlord (presumably to represent the unit defecting). There is no mention of this control being temporary.

Somehow get the warlord within 24" and you can take control of an opponent's Titan or their deathstar unit.

Finest Hour abilities last for 1 game turn only, then they expire and the warlords revert to their natural stats. At that point, the control of the enemy unit ends, which is why the last bit about moving it 1" from other models exists in the line.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Against Infantry(with or without Invulns) - Much Worse

But still better than every other weapon type. Sure you need a 2+ to wound now, but so does every other weapon, and those weapons don't ignore all saves. If you want to kill infantry you take D-weapons.

Better than every other weapon type, yes. But worse than before. Before it was remove if under template, unless an Invuln. If you wanted them reduced in power versus infantry, you got your wish. Evidently the only exception would be infantry with Invulns if the wording is no saves of any kind(I still thought this had come up before and was FAQed, maybe that was 5th). If you fire a MUCH cheaper Battlecannon shell at almost every infantry model in the game that isn't in cover, you get the same result as a D-Str weapon...whereas before it was not the case with the auto-wound.

I will agree that most HQ units got hit hard by this change if it is true(those with Invulns). With the added leaning toward Warlords affecting the battle for thematic purposes, the ability to wipe them off the board with a roll 6 or 2-5 followed by a 3+(most HQs have more than 2 wounds afterall) is a bit of a pain.

 Peregrine wrote:

The change is obviously designed to use your Destroyer weapons to target vehicle-style models and take other weapon-types to deal with infantry.

Now you can spam D-weapons all you want but those Titanhammer Squads, Fire Dragons, Wraithguard, Nobs, BigNids will rip you a new one if you didn't bring supporting fire units that you didn't need before. It changes Apoc for the better and brings infantry back into the fold.

And now they're even better than they used to be, needing a 2+ to wound is more than offset by now ignoring invulnerable saves.

I know more than a few infantry models that would disagree with this than would agree. With the change in idea on it ignoring Invuln saves, that changes Titanhammer from the post...and nothing else. Of which you can field a crazy number of those units to threaten the Titan for its own cost.

Spamming D-Str weapons, against anybody who plays Apoc more than once a year, is a sure way to lose. And that is without that player bringing his own D-Str spam to combat it. I've killed far more Titans with Fire Dragons, Wraithguard and mixed in Brightlances than my D-Str weapons from my Revenant or Scorpion. My Nightwings have accounted for more Titan kills than my Scorpion that costs 250 points more than the two of them combined.

With the change in the current meta, as well, I don't see those templated D-Str weapons doing much against the prevalence of flyers.

I still can't believe no one has opened the fortification box yet to give us rules!

rigeld2 wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
Oh wait...I forgot to read stuff first.

Yup. You sure did.

Read just fine, thanks for your value added post.

I missed one word in one FAQ that has little bearing on the overall discussion on D-Weapons due to the non-prevalence of Invuln saves in most armies, my appologies.

But thanks for being as useful as usual(Sarcasm).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pretre wrote:
I still can't believe no one has opened the fortification box yet to give us rules!

Agreed, I'm eager to see how some of these will fill the Interceptor gap in my Eldar army. Heh

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I missed one word in one FAQ that has little bearing on the overall discussion on D-Weapons due to the non-prevalence of Invuln saves in most armies, my appologies.

It's extremely important because the biggest priority targets (and really, the only infantry worth taking in Apocalypse) tend to have good invulnerable saves. The fact that D-weapons got a bit worse at killing boyz is more than offset by the fact that they got much better at killing terminator death stars.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:

 pretre wrote:
I still can't believe no one has opened the fortification box yet to give us rules!

Agreed, I'm eager to see how some of these will fill the Interceptor gap in my Eldar army. Heh

I'm picking up the two small ones on Saturday but am dying to find out the rules before then.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
If you wanted them reduced in power versus infantry, you got your wish.

No, I really didn't. They got slightly worse against infantry that don't matter, and much better at removing the best infantry units. The correct way to make them less effective against infantry would have been to remove the blast template so you can only hit one model, but GW would rather make Apocalpyse a game of "buy the biggest titan and win".

I've killed far more Titans with Fire Dragons, Wraithguard and mixed in Brightlances than my D-Str weapons from my Revenant or Scorpion.

Exactly the problem. You use mass melta (preferably deep striking directly to the target) to kill big stuff and D-weapons to remove entire armies from the table. This completely reverses the intended role of having D-weapons be dedicated titan killers.

With the change in the current meta, as well, I don't see those templated D-Str weapons doing much against the prevalence of flyers.

So what? Nobody is saying D-weapons are the only weapon you want in your army, the problem is that any unit that CAN take a D-weapon will take a D-weapon. For example, if you get a titan you arm it with D-weapons, period. You only even consider the other weapon options if you want to go easy on your opponents and avoid the most powerful option. The existence of flyers doesn't change this because none of the units that can carry D-weapons are able to shoot at flyers with any of their possible weapons.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
I missed one word in one FAQ that has little bearing on the overall discussion on D-Weapons due to the non-prevalence of Invuln saves in most armies, my appologies.

It's extremely important because the biggest priority targets (and really, the only infantry worth taking in Apocalypse) tend to have good invulnerable saves. The fact that D-weapons got a bit worse at killing boyz is more than offset by the fact that they got much better at killing terminator death stars.

I see it more as:

Those Terminators and other Invuln-save toting infantry that were good at surviving everything have a weakness and the line infantry got more survivable and worth playing. You stated 'the only infantry worth taking in Apoc' based on the prior D-Str rules being a huge factor in that statement. Now that 1 in 6 Ork Boys or Guardsmen can survive the D-Str blast, I feel this will increase their playability.

I will admit that I saw plenty of Terminators in the older edition of Apoc. But I also saw plenty of other infantry that could Flank March(unless houseruled into the ground), Deep Strike, or Mechanize. Also, planting infantry in multiple level ruins did a good job of keeping them alive versus D-Str weapons. Firing the weapon at a group of Guardians in a 3-4 level ruin means the return for invensment is VERY low and not worth putting those kind of shots into the squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:
Exactly the problem. You use mass melta (preferably deep striking directly to the target) to kill big stuff and D-weapons to remove entire armies from the table. This completely reverses the intended role of having D-weapons be dedicated titan killers.

My D-Str weapons were better spent killing off things like vehicles than infantry. Eldar already did very well versus infantry, but your mileage may have honestly varied there.

 Peregrine wrote:
So what? Nobody is saying D-weapons are the only weapon you want in your army, the problem is that any unit that CAN take a D-weapon will take a D-weapon. For example, if you get a titan you arm it with D-weapons, period. You only even consider the other weapon options if you want to go easy on your opponents and avoid the most powerful option. The existence of flyers doesn't change this because none of the units that can carry D-weapons are able to shoot at flyers with any of their possible weapons.

Plenty of people would bring Plasma Blastguns on Warhounds as it allowed a large template that could affect more units or models, especially with the 6th Edition changes to blast template DMG.

Can't a Warhound Titan take both a Vulcan Megabolter which could shred AV 10-11 flyers well and a Turbolaser Destructor? So "none of the units that can carry D-weapons are able to shoot at flyers with any of their possible weapons" is a bit off at least in this case. I'm pretty surethe Reaver has similar Options on carapace weapons.

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
You stated 'the only infantry worth taking in Apoc' based on the prior D-Str rules being a huge factor in that statement. Now that 1 in 6 Ork Boys or Guardsmen can survive the D-Str blast, I feel this will increase their playability.

No, I base it on the time and space constraints. Unless your idea of a standard Apocalypse game is under 5000 points with no time limits you don't bring boyz. It's just too much tedious dice rolling and movement for too little gain, you're going to use up all of your own time limit on units with minimal impact, and your opponents aren't going to enjoy it very much either. The only infantry you ever want to take are units like drop pod sternguard, TH/SS death stars, etc, that have immediate impact with a few models/dice.

Plenty of people would bring Plasma Blastguns on Warhounds as it allowed a large template that could affect more units or models, especially with the 6th Edition changes to blast template DMG.

Those people didn't really know what they were doing then, because the slightly larger template of the plasma blastgun is more than offset by the need to roll to wound/penetrate armor and then get through cover/invulnerable saves. The turbolaser did more damage in virtually every real-world situation.

Can't a Warhound Titan take both a Vulcan Megabolter which could shred AV 10-11 flyers well and a Turbolaser Destructor?

The vulcan megabolter is not an AA weapon. 15 shots with 6s to hit is 2.5 hits, which isn't really a viable threat (especially when a 75-point Hydra does more damage).

Meanwhile you could take a turbolaser and a second turbolaser and actually kill something. I know which one I'd take 100% of the time.

I'm pretty surethe Reaver has similar Options on carapace weapons.

It also has the ability to take a vortex missile or more D-weapons. If you took a megabolter instead of a vortex missile you were either a clueless newbie with too much money to spend, or deliberately making your army weaker so you don't crush your opponents.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
If you wanted them reduced in power versus infantry, you got your wish.

So what? Nobody is saying D-weapons are the only weapon you want in your army, the problem is that any unit that CAN take a D-weapon will take a D-weapon. For example, if you get a titan you arm it with D-weapons, period. You only even consider the other weapon options if you want to go easy on your opponents and avoid the most powerful option. The existence of flyers doesn't change this because none of the units that can carry D-weapons are able to shoot at flyers with any of their possible weapons.

Really? Because neither of my Warhounds have D weapons. And not because I "want to go easy on" opponents, but because I like the look of the plasma blastguns and vulcan megabolters better.

You must play with nothing but power hungry, WAAC donkey caves if you think that's the choices everyone is going to make with their titans or other SHVs.

In the group I played with in FL, before I moved, we rarely saw any D weapons in our apoc games at all.

Edit: And now, having read your next post, I see that you believe that I don't know what I'm doing, or I'm deliberately weakening my army out of charity to my opponent, as those are the only reasons you believe exist for other weapon choices.

Oh, that group I played with in FL? Yeah, there tended to be lots of infantry all over the table, of all kinds.

So, we either really didn't know how to play Apoc...or we really DID know how to play it.

shade1313 wrote:
Really? Because neither of my Warhounds have D weapons. And not because I "want to go easy on" opponents, but because I like the look of the plasma blastguns and vulcan megabolters better.

We're talking about the rules, not what looks pretty on the model. And if you're making gameplay decisions you always take the D-weapons unless you're deliberately weakening your army.

You must play with nothing but power hungry, WAAC donkey caves if you think that's the choices everyone is going to make with their titans or other SHVs.

And you must play with power hungry fluff-at-all-cost donkey caves if you think that everyone is going to choose weak weapons just for the sake of taking weak weapons, or refuse to allow you to proxy the cool looking guns as turbolasers.

Anyway, you're still missing the point. If the game is so unbalanced that you have to depend on the players having unwritten rules to avoid trying too hard to win it's lazy unprofessional game design. GW should have made the weapon options balanced instead of making D-weapons absurdly overpowered and forcing everyone to hope that nobody shows up with D-weapon spam and ruins the game.

I'm so sorry that our playing to have a fun game is offensive to your personal gaming sensibilities.

Edit: I HAVE always felt, however, that they made a gross error in having all of the weapons available to a titan "cost" the same, by allowing the player to choose any that they liked with no variance off of the basic cost of the titan. With no additional cost to obviously more powerful weapons, there's far less incentive for many players to go with options other than the D weapons.

shade1313 wrote:
I'm so sorry that our playing to have a fun game is offensive to your personal gaming sensibilities.

I'm so sorry that my playing to have a fun game is offensive to your personal gaming sensibilities.


Also, you keep missing the point. If you have to depend on unwritten rules about "not trying too hard" to have a fun game then it's incredibly lazy and unprofessional game design. But I guess that's what we should expect from GW.

 Peregrine wrote:

shade1313 wrote:
I'm so sorry that our playing to have a fun game is offensive to your personal gaming sensibilities.

I'm so sorry that my playing to have a fun game is offensive to your personal gaming sensibilities.

"I know you are, but what am I?"

shade1313 wrote:
Edit: I HAVE always felt, however, that they made a gross error in having all of the weapons available to a titan "cost" the same, by allowing the player to choose any that they liked with no variance off of the basic cost of the titan. With no additional cost to obviously more powerful weapons, there's far less incentive for many players to go with options other than the D weapons.

See, now you get it. GW could have easily fixed the balance problem and made mindless D-weapon spam go away, and the fact that they didn't is a problem.

That's really the bottom line - this is a GAME. Not a sport. Groups of friends typically get together, and have fun playing in the style which they all enjoy - some the power hungry, D-weapon loving types, while others like playing back-and-forth infantry and tank apoc battles. Tournaments that rely on balanced (as much as possible anyway) gameplay won't use the apoc format, so again - it's really irrelevant.

D weapons are awesome and absurdly strong. Players with the ability to field them will do so - thankfully there are some strategic assets like vortex grenades, and fortifications like vortex missile silos, that give other players without super heavies access to D weapons as well. Or, as said before, house rule them if they get to overwhelming for anybody to enjoy the game save the person with the biggest guns. (or team up vs that person to even the odds....it's apocalypse after all).

 tetrisphreak wrote:
That's really the bottom line - this is a GAME. Not a sport. Groups of friends typically get together, and have fun playing in the style which they all enjoy - some the power hungry, D-weapon loving types, while others like playing back-and-forth infantry and tank apoc battles. Tournaments that rely on balanced (as much as possible anyway) gameplay won't use the apoc format, so again - it's really irrelevant.

Or you could just have competent professionals write the game, and avoid the problem entirely because there won't be any obviously unbalanced idiocy like D-weapons to exploit. But I guess it's better to have a broken game where the D-weapon spammer shows up to a "back and forth infantry and tanks" game and neither side has any fun.

 Peregrine wrote:

shade1313 wrote:
Edit: I HAVE always felt, however, that they made a gross error in having all of the weapons available to a titan "cost" the same, by allowing the player to choose any that they liked with no variance off of the basic cost of the titan. With no additional cost to obviously more powerful weapons, there's far less incentive for many players to go with options other than the D weapons.

See, now you get it. GW could have easily fixed the balance problem and made mindless D-weapon spam go away, and the fact that they didn't is a problem.

I do hope that they've changed that aspect, and introduced different costs to different weapons loadouts. The Khornethingy sheet that we've seen appears to have different costs for various weapons, and I hope that signals the way the other SHVs with weapons options are going to be.

shade1313 wrote:
I do hope that they've changed that aspect, and introduced different costs to different weapons loadouts. The Khornethingy sheet that we've seen appears to have different costs for various weapons, and I hope that signals the way the other SHVs with weapons options are going to be.

According to someone who had access to the book they haven't. The new units have different costs, but all of the old ones still have the same rules for weapon choices. And since the Imperial titans are the worst offenders for D-weapon spam this is really the same as no solution at all.

 Peregrine wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:
That's really the bottom line - this is a GAME. Not a sport. Groups of friends typically get together, and have fun playing in the style which they all enjoy - some the power hungry, D-weapon loving types, while others like playing back-and-forth infantry and tank apoc battles. Tournaments that rely on balanced (as much as possible anyway) gameplay won't use the apoc format, so again - it's really irrelevant.

Or you could just have competent professionals write the game, and avoid the problem entirely because there won't be any obviously unbalanced idiocy like D-weapons to exploit. But I guess it's better to have a broken game where the D-weapon spammer shows up to a "back and forth infantry and tanks" game and neither side has any fun.

Is it wrong to expect players to communicate with one another and say "hey, man, don't bring those busted titans to our game today." ? Lots of game systems have exploitable parts or loopholes if you look hard enough. Heck, even the Tekken video game series has Eddy Gordo, with which the most untalented of players can just mash buttons and disco-dance themselves into a win. I dunno, maybe that's a bad example but the point is just because players CAN do something un-fun, doesn't mean they should or that they even will.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Is it wrong to expect players to communicate with one another and say "hey, man, don't bring those busted titans to our game today." ?

Honestly, it kinda is. That's pretty much saying "You know that expensive model you spent all that work putting together and maybe painting that you can only use when we play Apocalypse? You mind not bringing that to the only style of game you can use it in? Thanks."

It's fine for those groups that play Apocalypse monthly, but for the average group that plays it once in a blue moon, it's kinda a crappy thing to do.

Is it crappier than say simply not wanting to play because of said titan? Fun is a two way street I'm afraid.

Now certainly fun can come at the expense of another player's fun, that is the nature of the game, however in a good game it's a back and forth. No one outside of sadists ever enjoyed seeing their little guys getting pie plated out of existence, but hopefully that blow is softened by causing similar destruction to the opponent's little guys. If it's one way all game, not very fun for both sides. I don't see anything wrong with the idea that "I'll play your titan when I get mine done".

It's kinda like forgeworld, you have the entitled camp and the realistic camp. The entitled camp thinks they don't "have to" broach the subject with a prospective opponent (always seemingly forgetting that we all have veto power over who we chose to play). The realistic camp might say "hey, do you mind if we use forgeworld, I just painted up my x model?". I'm firmly in camp reality, being pragmatic is very important to the game in my books. All my regular opponents have their prefferences and so do I. If opponent a doesn't like forgeworld, or titans or what have you, opponent b might have no problem with any of those.

I think it's pretty easy to see why some players with a limited amount of discretionary wargaming funds might take issue with other with more money simply paying to win so to speak. Apoc is at a point now (and arguably has always been) where you may as well call it capitalism, the game. I mean look no further than formations.

 Crablezworth wrote:
Is it crappier than say simply not wanting to play because of said titan? Fun is a two way street I'm afraid.

If a single Titan with a couple D weapons is ruining your fun, I don't think it entirely has to do with the Titan.

No, common sense and dignity have to play a part.


And really, if my opponent didn't have any super heavies especially titan, I don't think I'd want to field one. But I guess I'm just a decent human being.

 Crablezworth wrote:
No, common sense and dignity have to play a part.


And really, if my opponent didn't have any super heavies especially titan, I don't think I'd want to field one. But I guess I'm just a decent human being.

Wow, way to read into my comments the completely wrong way.

You're right, it's entirely reasonable to judge a person by whether you allow them to bring their toys or not.


My point was that most people that have problems with Titans and super heavies tend not to actually have problems with the models, but with the actual Apocalypse format. It's not 40K on a larger scale(I can't tell you how many times I've seen people approach it that way), it's an excuse to get together and have fun with your toys, big and small. And I'm NOT saying you can't limit how many big toys are present(I do it with every event I run and most events I've played in do it, too). Hell, I've played plenty of Super-heavy-less Apoc games, they can be fun. And yes, it's a bit skewy if you don't have one and then not PLAN on facing one.

I DO have a problem with people asking them not to bring it based purely on the fact that it happens to have D weapons, which people keep complaining about, but I've never seen a D weapon affect the game as much as they seem to insinuate it does. Then again, I only own two models with D weapons, and I tend to be the one supplying BOTH sides with the Superheavies every time I play(cause I'm a decent human being that way ).

An Imperator, yes, but not D Weapons(I guess if EVERYTHING had one, yeah).

 Crablezworth wrote:
No, common sense and dignity have to play a part.


And really, if my opponent didn't have any super heavies especially titan, I don't think I'd want to field one. But I guess I'm just a decent human being.

I rather think that a decent human being wouldn't cast everyone who differs on that decision as NOT being a decent human being.

So as far as i can see Crablezworth your saying that since i own a Necron Pylon SHV since 2005 which has seen the light of day a massive 3 times in that whole time and my opponents currently do not own a SHV, should i then get the rare opportunity to play an apocalypse game and decide to include this rarely seen model in my army i am not a decent human being, have no common sense and no dignity, am i getting this correct?

Personally the shoe should be on the other foot, for example my Pylon is known to my opponents, they know i will more than likely include it if i get the chance and it should be up to them to come up with tactics/strategies to destroy or impair my SHV and other strong units while i do the same to theirs as this is in my opinion what makes the game fun.

shade1313 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
No, common sense and dignity have to play a part.


And really, if my opponent didn't have any super heavies especially titan, I don't think I'd want to field one. But I guess I'm just a decent human being.

I rather think that a decent human being wouldn't cast everyone who differs on that decision as NOT being a decent human being.

What I'm saying is even in the instances where a prospective opponent didn't mind me taking a super heavy regardless of their lack of one, I'd feel bad and as such elect not to take one. I wouldn't feel dignified if I took one.

This one is starting to wander far afield.

Any real reason for it to stay open, if it can't stay on topic?

Userarm wrote:
So as far as i can see Crablezworth your saying that since i own a Necron Pylon SHV since 2005 which has seen the light of day a massive 3 times in that whole time and my opponents currently do not own a SHV, should i then get the rare opportunity to play an apocalypse game and decide to include this rarely seen model in my army i am not a decent human being, have no common sense and no dignity, am i getting this correct?.

If they took issue because of their lack of super heavies or d weapons and noted that they would prefer to play without super heavies and you took it anyway out of entitlement then ya I'd say that's a less than decent thing to do. If your opponents don't care either way, then go ahead. I myself wouldn't feel very dignified in that context.

 Alpharius wrote:
This one is starting to wander far afield.

Any real reason for it to stay open, if it can't stay on topic?

As much as I want to say 'the damn fortification rules', it may not be worth it. :(

Userarm wrote:


Personally the shoe should be on the other foot, for example my Pylon is known to my opponents, they know i will more than likely include it if i get the chance and it should be up to them to come up with tactics/strategies to destroy or impair my SHV and other strong units while i do the same to theirs as this is in my opinion what makes the game fun.

If they said "hey can you not bring that big pylon thing, it was a fun spunge last time" Would you simply say "it's legal, I'm taking it" or would there be a longer conversation about balance and what kind of game everyone is looking to have?

 Crablezworth wrote:

shade1313 wrote:

 Crablezworth wrote:
No, common sense and dignity have to play a part.


And really, if my opponent didn't have any super heavies especially titan, I don't think I'd want to field one. But I guess I'm just a decent human being.

I rather think that a decent human being wouldn't cast everyone who differs on that decision as NOT being a decent human being.

What I'm saying is even in the instances where a prospective opponent didn't mind me taking a super heavy regardless of their lack of one, I'd feel bad and as such elect not to take one. I wouldn't feel dignified if I took one.

Offer to supply them with one(or three!). They're fun to use. I own 8 of the things across various armies mostly to loan them out.

And of course, I have no problem NOT bringing one if no one else has or wants to use one, I just didn't like tetris' reasoning for asking it to not be brought.

I can understand where tetris's sentiment comes from, in the case of say a warhaound, 4 d weapons has never seemed to make much sense for the points being spent. If both sides have one, it seems like less of an issue but if only one person in a gaming group hase one, I can fully understand the "fun spunge" effect it can have on games.

Has there been any word on the regular 40k Fortification rules?

demontalons wrote:
Has there been any word on the regular 40k Fortification rules?

Nothing us indecent human beings have heard about. Still waiting.

Our GW was given a choice of unit to build/paint for store use, the manager had a vote and we selected the Aquila Strongpoint over the Khornethingy and the Obelisk. I'm sure that other stores were afforded the same, and if 40k rules are included in the box for the AS, they'll be turning up shortly from somewhere.

Hmm, well only 2 days to go and all will be verified truly, but I quite like the D rules, you have a 1 in 6 chance of not dying as a single model, or 1 in 6 of only a pen hit. Also the odds are that it may only take 2 wounds any model, but it could be 4, and it will require luck to be truly deadly after all, you still need to roll to hit/scatter, and with my luck in the game, I'll never, ever, ever roll a 6 on either D table.

 pretre wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
This one is starting to wander far afield.

Any real reason for it to stay open, if it can't stay on topic?

As much as I want to say 'the damn fortification rules', it may not be worth it. :(

Yeah what about those rules? Did i miss anything or we still have no clue about their points cost etc. ?

demontalons wrote:
Has there been any word on the regular 40k Fortification rules?

On some websites I have seen people unpacking the Vault and Mr Evil-Tracks, so we should probably see those rules within the next 12 hours.

Don't think I'll be bothering with the book, I have no plans to buy a superheavy and it looks like games that just use tons of regular Codex units have the potential to go badly wrong if your opponent has D-weapons (in other words it's just too much of an investment!).

 Fezman wrote:
Don't think I'll be bothering with the book, I have no plans to buy a superheavy and it looks like games that just use tons of regular Codex units have the potential to go badly wrong if your opponent has D-weapons (in other words it's just too much of an investment!).

You can get D weapons from some formations.

C:SM has Predator legion

CSM has obliterator cult.

DE: doesn't have them, but can pierce void shields with its ravager formation.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Fezman wrote:
Don't think I'll be bothering with the book, I have no plans to buy a superheavy and it looks like games that just use tons of regular Codex units have the potential to go badly wrong if your opponent has D-weapons (in other words it's just too much of an investment!).

You can get D weapons from some formations.

C:SM has Predator legion

CSM has obliterator cult.

DE: doesn't have them, but can pierce void shields with its ravager formation.

One of the eldar strategic assets is a destroyer weapon, as is the vortex grenade.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Is it wrong to expect players to communicate with one another and say "hey, man, don't bring those busted titans to our game today." ?

Honestly, it kinda is. That's pretty much saying "You know that expensive model you spent all that work putting together and maybe painting that you can only use when we play Apocalypse? You mind not bringing that to the only style of game you can use it in? Thanks."

It's fine for those groups that play Apocalypse monthly, but for the average group that plays it once in a blue moon, it's kinda a crappy thing to do.

In my experience, when a group gets together, and the Titan kicks the crap out of the other side all by itself, they are no other games played. Both sides need to have fun, and regardless that someone tossed FW money, isn't a valid reason for given up a day just so your buddy can play with an expensive toy. (And I personally own quite a few expensive toys that I don't expect to see the table much, and certainly not altogether.

A group that communicates and plans their games will have more games, and the Titans get to play in more games.

Complaining about Titans when you have none just shows a lack of thought - it's far, far easier to kill a Titan than you think. For example, Space Marines can do it easily with a drop pod full of Sternguard with combi meltas. Tyranids can do it with a Mycetic Spore or two full of Zoanthropes.

Drop a supremely powerful anti tank unit inside its void shields and watch your opponent cry when his $700 Reaver explodes, taking half of his army with it. Some armies can even do it with conventional firepower, though admittedly it'll take a lot of pounding.

Telling someone who has dropped the cheese on a Titan that they can't bring their fantastic centerpeice model to your (very already unbalanced) Apocalypse game smacks more of jealousy than fear of how powerful it is. It only becomes a massive problem when someone turns up with three Reavers packing all D strength weapons, which is the point where you would want to start putting up some limits.

Bringing it slightly back on topic, for the UK webstore at least the targeting templates are now sold out, I'll be very interested to see what happens next with them, surely they must be planning another release of them if only in a different colour or format...

 mikhaila wrote:
Both sides need to have fun, and regardless that someone tossed FW money, isn't a valid reason for given up a day just so your buddy can play with an expensive toy.

Of course let's be honest here, most titans are "scratchbuilt" proxies full of D-weapons.

 Peregrine wrote:

 mikhaila wrote:
Both sides need to have fun, and regardless that someone tossed FW money, isn't a valid reason for given up a day just so your buddy can play with an expensive toy.

Of course let's be honest here, most titans are "scratchbuilt" proxies full of D-weapons.

I remember my frist Apocalypse game. A friend brought his 3000pts of Eldar and 2000pts of Space Marines. My brother brought his Guard backed up by 5 papercraft Baneblade variants.

I've told him I'm not playing him in Apoc if he keeps that up.

Well pre-orders have shipped. I hope that some day in the near future GW realises that the best way to have people play Apoc is to release things on Fridays, that way people can use them that weekend, rather than sending them out Friday afternoon, so we don't get them 'til the following Monday.

But no, the Internet is evil and unscrupulous people would put pictures up on the Internet!

Just received my preorder - I got the cards, the template set and the vortex grenade template (sorry, no rulebook - I'm going digital).

The templates are made of a very different plastic to the old green templates. They're much more flexible and much lighter - I'm not sure if this is a positive or not, because they feel cheaper. Since they're all clip-together templates, having it like this means that parts are less likely to snap, though.

That big template is huge. Where the 5" template is often known as the "pie plate", and the old 10" apoc template was the "dinner plate"...I like to call this 15" template the Sombrero.

Vortex template is pretty much as expected. Same as before, just with a different design. Looks very cool.

Cards are done on a very dark grey colour, with lighter grey writing and another grey logo behind the writing, so it can be a little bit of a strain to read.

 -Loki- wrote:

Drop a supremely powerful anti tank unit inside its void shields and watch your opponent cry when his $700 Reaver explodes, taking half of his army with it. Some armies can even do it with conventional firepower, though admittedly it'll take a lot of pounding.

Telling someone who has dropped the cheese on a Titan that they can't bring their fantastic centerpeice model to your (very already unbalanced) Apocalypse game smacks more of jealousy than fear of how powerful it is. It only becomes a massive problem when someone turns up with three Reavers packing all D strength weapons, which is the point where you would want to start putting up some limits.

The same issue applies to the smaller end of the Apoc scale. Say you're playing a 3000-5000pt game with just one superheavy unit per side. Whoever gets first turn unleashes all their D-weapons to kill the other superheavy before it even fires a shot. That lovely centerpiece model not only never gets used, but it's absence makes getting rid of the opponents centerpiece so much harder. The original super unit is now free to clear swathes of everything using the same weapon virtually unopposed, because it's equally effective against anything.

I think the two main mistakes with D-weapons in this edition are:
a) Invulns should be usable against them, even if it's a compromise such as forcing a re-roll of successful saves. This helps elite units (like Termies) a little more of a chance to live and at least gives them at least slightly better odds than Guardsmen or Grotz in the same situation.
b) Blast-based D-weapons are so effective there's little reason to pick alternatives at the same points cost (aside from aesthetics or wanting to be fair). It makes them equally effective against clearing massed-infantry as they are against larger units, unlike weapons such as plasma or lascannon, which have their high strength balanced out by being able to hit fewer targets at a time.
The house rule mentioned earlier in this thread works quite well - only the unit under the centre of the template takes the D-strength hit and everything else is a regular S10 AP1 hit.

Of course it's hard to argue that these house rules are fair when your know your opponent is planning to use a $400 titan, and your own army has next to zero D-weapon options to take or buy.

got a peek at the stompa page. 170 points price hike, same stats, gatler lost coaxial, suparokkits are now large blast. effigy range reduced to 6. 12 hull points. not sure what size massive blast is, but that's what the deff kannon is listed with.

Blast: 3"
Large Blast: 5"
Massive Blast: 7"
Apocalyptic Blast: 10"
Apocalyptic Mega-Blast: 5/10/15"

katfude wrote:
got a peek at the stompa page. 170 points price hike, same stats, gatler lost coaxial, suparokkits are now large blast. effigy range reduced to 6. 12 hull points. not sure what size massive blast is, but that's what the deff kannon is listed with.

Massive Blast is 7", so no change there.

It seems like most superheavies are getting price hikes (baneblade, stompa, stormsword) except for superheavy transports which are getting drops (thunderhawk, stormlord)

So, my templates, dice, vengeance weapons batteries and firestorm redoubt arrived today.

First, the vengeance battery:



The box is about the size of two rhinos side by side (the box will be a useful transport case for them actually)


Here's the crazy (and new to me) part - the pieces have been removed from the sprue and packed in plastic bags (a la FW). This is fine as it saves time but as a modeller I'm not thrilled as the drone/slave worker/killbot 2000 GW used to remove the parts from the sprue was not as careful as I would have been. As a result, you have some holes where the sprue has "pulled" out of the plastic.

These will take about 5 minutes to build (plus another hour fixing the holes caused by worker drone #14764 removing parts from the sprue). Interestingly, the guns are one piece with nice big bores. They have to be fixed in place, but for those wanting to interchange weapons, the punisher barrel fits into the end of the battle cannon!



With rules as advertised!


Now for the Firestorm redoubt


Once again, parts removed from sprue and packed in bags:


It's a good size kit, with big chunky lascannons and will go well with my Wall o' Dead Cadians

And again, rules as promised


All up, not too bad. When I first saw the parts in the bag I thought, wow, they are even dumbing down the models now. But on reflection, this appears a way to reduce the size of the boxes to, I assume, save shelf space. I certainly hope they don't go down this route with their other kits and it is making me think twice about the Aquila Strongpoint (so many bitz that will need remedial work thanks to sprue-bot 2000.)

I wish I could read those 40k rules, any chance of a close up?

You can go to his Gallery and zoom in on them, the Weapon Batteries are quite awesome.

Hmm, they were not gallery pics for me before but seem to work now

So the batteries look pretty decent for 75 points, 20 S5 shots haha

Stronghold looks to expensive at 200 points, even with heavy 2 twinlinked lascannons, Im guessing because they are automated that BS is 2?

 Cheexsta wrote:
Just received my preorder - I got the cards, the template set and the vortex grenade template (sorry, no rulebook - I'm going digital).

 Gordy2000 wrote:
So, my templates, dice, vengeance weapons batteries and firestorm redoubt arrived today.

Why can't you Aussies order rulebooks?

He can, he just chose to go Digital

Why can't you Aussies order rulebooks?

Why can't you Poms tell the difference between Australian and New Zealand flags? (hint, count the stars...or alternatively, Aussies are the ones who beat you at cricket, Kiwis are the ones who beat you at rugby )

 Gordy2000 wrote:
Here's the crazy (and new to me) part - the pieces have been removed from the sprue and packed in plastic bags (a la FW). This is fine as it saves time but as a modeller I'm not thrilled as the drone/slave worker/killbot 2000 GW used to remove the parts from the sprue was not as careful as I would have been. As a result, you have some holes where the sprue has "pulled" out of the plastic.

It's like GW decided that the solution to finecast being so much worse than plastic was to make plastic just as bad. At least it's even easier not to buy these now.

 tuiman wrote:
Hmm, they were not gallery pics for me before but seem to work now

So the batteries look pretty decent for 75 points, 20 S5 shots haha

Stronghold looks to expensive at 200 points, even with heavy 2 twinlinked lascannons, Im guessing because they are automated that BS is 2?

So this means they can't be manned and they are automated only?

meh_ wrote:
So this means they can't be manned and they are automated only?

Well, the Batteries can't have models in them at all and the Redoubt has a special rule to stop them from using it.

BS2 isn't that bad!
Heavy 20 means that you'll hit 7 rounds and against T4 that are around 5 wounds.
Heavy 2 with Twin-Linked results into 1.11 hit on average. You also have two of them, so you have 2.22 hits from the entire thing.

 xttz wrote:

 Cheexsta wrote:
Just received my preorder - I got the cards, the template set and the vortex grenade template (sorry, no rulebook - I'm going digital).

 Gordy2000 wrote:
So, my templates, dice, vengeance weapons batteries and firestorm redoubt arrived today.

Why can't you Aussies order rulebooks?

I'm now kind of regretting my choice :(

No matter, should be available for download in the morning.

Kangodo wrote:
He can, he just chose to go Digital

Yeah I'm just bored at work and wanted to throw a few questions at someone with the book

If the defences are all automated only, at least Tyranids can use them now.

Gordy, any chance of a close up of some of the damage from where the parts have been pulled from the sprue?

Sure thing - not the greatest pics but you get the idea:





The damage isn't outrageous, but its annoying because it is so unnecessary. Those are holes in the barrels that will need to be filled with putty, filed and sanded. Frankly, two seconds of care when removing them from the sprue could have avoided it entirely.

Having had a closer look, the plastic used is quite different from the usual kits. More waxy (brittle?). These are not cheap kits, so its a bit of a shame.

Not enough for me to regret buying them and with a bit of work they should look great, but a little frustrating all the same.

Oh wow, new boxing method AND new material.

You're right, it isn't outrageous but this could become the norm, and that would be outrageous. Imagine if every box of space marines required greenstuffing.

I'm trade marking Fineplastic

ok so wait, those batteries Firestorm redoubt are Bs2 TL heavy 2, with those automated rules do i get to pick a target? i cant read it very well in those pics sorry. or does it auto choose the nearest thing? as well as that i spose that at 200 points for normal 40k its going to be a ahh bit average :( 200 would be acceptable if it could be manned and user BS.
at this point range 2 quadguns seem significantly more effictive :(

They aim for the closest Flyer or Flying Monstrous Creature in line of sight. If no such target exists, they aim for the closest enemy unit.

 ausYenLoWang wrote:
ok so wait, those batteries Firestorm redoubt are Bs2 TL heavy 2, with those automated rules do i get to pick a target? i cant read it very well in those pics sorry. or does it auto choose the nearest thing? as well as that i spose that at 200 points for normal 40k its going to be a ahh bit average :( 200 would be acceptable if it could be manned and user BS.
at this point range 2 quadguns seem significantly more effictive :(

200 points for a pair of quad linked Icarus lascannons would be cheap if they could be manned. Even 250 would be low. Being able to man something that is 2 shots twin linked with skyfire and interceptor would be devastating to fliers and anything coming in from reserves. Imagine putting Telion on one and sniping out terminators who deepstruck, or someone with tank hunter and killing any vehicle that tried to come in from reserve.


As for the odd plastic of the scenery, they used the same stuff in the other Wall of Martyrs kit. It feels different, and a little bit denser (probably to deal with divot/flexing problems on large flat pieces.) I really doubt normal models will th seeing the likes of spruebot 2000 anytime soon. For normal kits it just adds time and cost as well as additional packaging. The scenery probably is on oddly shaped sprues, so they cut it off which also allows them to do a smaller box.

 Gordy2000 wrote:
Here's the crazy (and new to me) part - the pieces have been removed from the sprue and packed in plastic bags (a la FW).

What the feth?

I'm guessing this means they can make efficiently-packed master sprues, then separate and only give you what they want rather than being bound by manufacturing process to give you an entire sprue. It's kind smart on their part, but it's dumb they didn't clip off safely.

But what do they gain by not giving us the sprue?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But what do they gain by not giving us the sprue?

Maybe cash is a bit tight and they can't afford to give away free bits of plastic that they could re-use...

At least they're getting recycled.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But what do they gain by not giving us the sprue?

the ability to recycle the plastic that went into the spruce and reduce materials costs.

Think about it, for a box of gretchin the sprue is almost the same volume f plastic as the models, so if they could reuse that plastic that's almost halving materials costs for that particular box.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But what do they gain by not giving us the sprue?

Power

I don't buy it. If that was the case, why start now? Why weren't they doing it earlier?

can't believe that the rules don't state the BS of the auto-fire mode - silly GW!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But what do they gain by not giving us the sprue?

You're assuming the whole sprue makes just 1 set and is then cut up and boxed. Not my suggestion.

Let's say a master sprue has five gun emplacements on it. Or that one sprue is just the front wall x 10 because that fits neatly. This way a sprue or sprues could make multiple boxes in part or in combination. Maybe this is a way they've found of being more cost effective. Also, as someone pointed out they can immediately recycle sprue, saving materials costs. I can see how this all might appeal to the bean counters.

Anway, just an idea. Who fething well knows.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But what do they gain by not giving us the sprue?

The sprue must be intermixed, I guess.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
But what do they gain by not giving us the sprue?

You're assuming the whole sprue makes just 1 set and is then cut up and boxed. Not my suggestion.

Let's say a master sprue has five gun emplacements on it. Or that one sprue is just the front wall x 10 because that fits neatly. This way a sprue or sprues could make multiple boxes in part or in combination. Maybe this is a way they've found of being more cost effective. Also, as someone pointed out they can immediately recycle sprue, saving materials costs. I can see how this all might appeal to the bean counters.

Anway, just an idea. Who fething well knows.

In theory they can also save on storage/shipping costs in some situations too, because the box contents can be far smaller than they would be with full sprues. It would certainly help alleviate supply issues (like with Tau) if they can ship and store more products in the same volume.