McNinja wrote: A good model can make up for poor rules by being a nice display piece. A poor model is still going to look silly, no matter if it has BS5 and a Str D AP1 heavy 30 weapon or not.
I deeply disagree with that.
If a terrible model has nice( or good ) rules, you can always convert or kitbash the model.
If a good model has terrible rules, no matter what, it will stay terrible, and having a dust collector that costs 100$ on my shelve, is not something good, or i can use it, or i don't buy it( yes despite beeing the geek i am i don't collect action figures and such, don't have enough place at home for that).
But thats more a matter of perspective i think.
What i'm really curious is how the Apoc rules will be changed and to what degree.
Because there is gonna be changes, no matter what, still wonder if it will stay an Happy-go-all thing, or something with a bit more structure at the price of freedom.
McNinja wrote: A good model can make up for poor rules by being a nice display piece. A poor model is still going to look silly, no matter if it has BS5 and a Str D AP1 heavy 30 weapon or not.
It saddens me to say this but you underestimate the WAAC players. I see way too many people at my local club praising Helldrakes purely because they have good rules (I think we are up to 3 different players at different stages of collecting 3 each).
Pacific wrote:
Would much rather just pay £30-35, as with every other FW book, but once again they have to try and take the piss and charge double the amount.
guessing you dont buy many FW books then, as every IA apart from the small addons like aeronautica is in the £50 range. The materials used int eh HH book were also a cut above the (already excellent)_ quality of IA books
I am REALLY looking forward to the Apoc book coming out now that there are also rumors of the FW update coming out on its heels. The only reservation I had before was:
What if I can only play 1 of my 3 units from FW in the current Apoc book due to available rules.
On a side note, I am sad that I won't be able to field my Shadow Walker Squadron anymore. I wanted to try to get ONE game in with the Scatter Laser rule (Laser Lock) and firing each weapon twice...alas I don't think I'll be able to get an Apoc in before the update.
Your marines may not need a super-heavy, but there are thousands of marine players who would probably buy one in a heartbeat. The Forgeworld Thunderhawk has NOT sold that well, but I wager a plastic one would be perpetually sold out. Even if it were $200.
How true. The Forge World Thunderhawk is not only expensive, it's also enormously time consuming, laborious and complex to build by comparison to a conventional plastic kit. A friend of mine got one as a gift and ended up trading it away because he knew he'd never find the time for the effort it takes to build it properly. A regular GW kit would probably break the $200 US mark, maybe $250 even, but everyone with Space Marines of any kind would be scrounging the cash to buy one.
IA books go for below the price of loosely equivalent textbooks, but then that's a market of complete ripoffs.
For much smaller books with relatively little unique information (lots of common knowledge piled together), I've paid double what FW charges for their books, and they're of pretty consistent high quality. The older books had some editing errors, but they've clamped down on that (and their own model QA issues; haven't got a single bent or flashed model in a while).
GW books, however, are small, containing poorly written fluff in comparison to FW, and have abominable proofreading. The $30 softcovers were a bit of a rip-off, but nothing that I'd get overly incensed about, but this new run of small hardcovers, even for the supplements, and charging high prices for them irks me some. When a FW book costs between 10 and 25 bucks more, and is much bigger, containing multiple army lists, units for different armies, well-written, much more realistic fluff, and still finds space for the entire wargear selection of the included army lists AND all the apocalypse rules for superheavies, superheavy fliers and gargantuan creatures, it just makes GW's publications look little underwhelming.
The Apoc book will likely justify its own price if it's in the same range as everything else, but this Iyanden supplement being full codex price, Crusade of Fire, Death from the Skies and so on really do stink.
Have those rumours from warseer been posted? That gaunt guy or what ever his name is (sorry) said its supposed to be the 3 types of books as said by the source at faeit and the releases are just the khorne and necron vehicles but also 3 huge terrain pieces.
If thats true wtfGW, jesus, how about new apoc vehicles? Na have some buildings instead.
unmercifulconker wrote: ...the releases are just the khorne and necron vehicles but also 3 huge terrain pieces. If thats true wtfGW, jesus, how about new apoc vehicles? Na have some buildings instead.
As a Necron player, I must admit that I don't see a problem with next month's pending releases.
As a Dark Eldar, Ork, and Space Marine player, I understand completely and feel your pain.
Orks already have a dedicated Apocalypse kit, so do Imperial Guard and now it appears Chaos Marines and Necrons will have something too. The Eldar Wraithknight being a mini-Titan should give Eldar a nice Apocalypse boost. What's amazing is that the most popular model range, Space Marines, apparently will still not have a dedicated large model kit for Apocalypse. Very odd and a bit mystifying since there's clearly money to be made in doing such a thing.
As a Necron player I will buy it if its usable in standard games of 40k. If its Apocalypse only it will have to be something amazing. Apocalypse right now is no fun to play particularly when it is a disorganized cluster feth, which has been my experience at most apocalypse games in the area.
BrassScorpion wrote: Orks already have a dedicated Apocalypse kit, so do Imperial Guard and now it appears Chaos Marines and Necrons will have something too. The Eldar Wraithknight being a mini-Titan should give Eldar a nice Apocalypse boost. What's amazing is that the most popular model range, Space Marines, apparently will still not have a dedicated large model kit for Apocalypse. Very odd and a bit mystifying since there's clearly money to be made in doing such a thing.
Perhaps think of the Baneblade as Imperial, rather than Imperial Guard. SM players I know have had no issue including one in their apoc armies.
BrassScorpion wrote: Orks already have a dedicated Apocalypse kit, so do Imperial Guard and now it appears Chaos Marines and Necrons will have something too. The Eldar Wraithknight being a mini-Titan should give Eldar a nice Apocalypse boost. What's amazing is that the most popular model range, Space Marines, apparently will still not have a dedicated large model kit for Apocalypse. Very odd and a bit mystifying since there's clearly money to be made in doing such a thing.
GW kinda wrote themselves into a corner fluff-wise on that one though. Marines, supposedly, don't actually have anything all that heavy. The Thunderhawk is about the biggest thing they've got, and it's really supposed to be the only big thing in the arsenal. They're not designed (again, fluff-wise) as a heavy siege force, but as a rapid strike force.
Still leaves them room for things in the intermediate scale of not-quite-superheavies, of course, and GW could always just blatantly ignore the background they've established in order to sell miniatures, but eh. I stopped listening to Marine complaints about four editions ago.
For one, if it's real, it will likely come with lots of different ways to model it.
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Two, there are plenty of models which look FAAAAAAAAAR worse. Holy cow just look through the company's history...
Finally, if you do end up hating it, it doesn't matter if GW releases it. You aren't required to buy it, or even care about it.
Okay, i may have been a little harsh with so little to go on. I think the concept is just bad though, a big man/ tank? it it was a huge Defiler type mechanical then that would be cool, or a daemonic looking machine, like Heldrake/ Forgefiend it would work a lot better
NecronLord3 wrote: As a Necron player I will buy it if its usable in standard games of 40k. If its Apocalypse only it will have to be something amazing. Apocalypse right now is no fun to play particularly when it is a disorganized cluster feth, which has been my experience at most apocalypse games in the area.
I was thinking this myself and I don't know what common belief is about this. Will every faction get their own mini-titan for standard games? And if so, will it still be without Structure points? If so, how many hull points should a Baneblade have, and should it be possible to destroy it with a single shot?
NecronLord3 wrote: As a Necron player I will buy it if its usable in standard games of 40k. If its Apocalypse only it will have to be something amazing. Apocalypse right now is no fun to play particularly when it is a disorganized cluster feth, which has been my experience at most apocalypse games in the area.
I was thinking this myself and I don't know what common belief is about this. Will every faction get their own mini-titan for standard games? And if so, will it still be without Structure points? If so, how many hull points should a Baneblade have, and should it be possible to destroy it with a single shot?
allot of people have complained about hull points in 6th being the reason vehicles are used less than they were in 5th and IMO the solution is having them only be destroyed if they are on their last hull point and use a AP1&2 to modify the number if hull points they deliver instead of the penetration result. Then super heavies can be given a reasonable number of hull points like 6+ to make them as survivable and tough as they should be. Or a blanket rule preventing destruction until the last hull point, I believe structure points work this way in apocalypse.
GW kinda wrote themselves into a corner fluff-wise on that one though. Marines, supposedly, don't actually have anything all that heavy. The Thunderhawk is about the biggest thing they've got, and it's really supposed to be the only big thing in the arsenal. They're not designed (again, fluff-wise) as a heavy siege force, but as a rapid strike force.
Bingo. The thing everyone want, a Knight, or a plastic Warhound, has nothing to do with Space Marines. Both are Adeptus Mechanicus forces that are much more likely to ally with Imperial Guard than with Space Marine Chapters. Not that some chapters don't have excellent relations with the AM (Iron Hands and Salamanders) but Space Marine chapters really are small time guys doing small time operations and large war engines don't have a role in them.
I could really whine for ages about how messed up GW's fluff is about troop numbers. In GW world planets are conquered by attacking one small city somewhere with 100 guys and calling it a day (100 guys, really? The Police Departments of small cities have more armed forces) When GW thinks it's going all apocalypse in the fluff they say a sector was attacked by five Space Marine chapters. It's pathetic. I'd say you need 200-500 thousand Marines (200-500 Marine chapters) to conquer planet earth of 2012 and twenty, thirty million Imperial Guard and their war machines (fleet, void shielded vehicles, other advanced weaponry) to control it day by day in order to avoid it revolting back to where it was in just one month, but in the GW universe a chapter of Space Marines conquers sectors of planets, mostly by dropping fifty guys into some capital, killing a governor of some kind, planting a flag and saying this is ours let's move on. It's hilarious and I've no idea what it has to do with war or controlling hostile territories.
I think that you assume all planets to have 2000years worth of humans procreating on them. When allot are barren desolate pre industrialized colonies. Those could be pacified buy a few SM chapters easily, while planets or systems like Apocalypse take years or decades to conquer. Think more Fire Fly and less Star Wars.
GW kinda wrote themselves into a corner fluff-wise on that one though. Marines, supposedly, don't actually have anything all that heavy. The Thunderhawk is about the biggest thing they've got, and it's really supposed to be the only big thing in the arsenal. They're not designed (again, fluff-wise) as a heavy siege force, but as a rapid strike force.
Bingo. The thing everyone want, a Knight, or a plastic Warhound, has nothing to do with Space Marines. Both are Adeptus Mechanicus forces that are much more likely to ally with Imperial Guard than with Space Marine Chapters. Not that some chapters don't have excellent relations with the AM (Iron Hands and Salamanders) but Space Marine chapters really are small time guys doing small time operations and large war engines don't have a role in them.
I could really whine for ages about how messed up GW's fluff is about troop numbers. In GW world planets are conquered by attacking one small city somewhere with 100 guys and calling it a day (100 guys, really? The Police Departments of small cities have more armed forces) When GW thinks it's going all apocalypse in the fluff they say a sector was attacked by five Space Marine chapters. It's pathetic. I'd say you need 200-500 thousand Marines (200-500 Marine chapters) to conquer planet earth of 2012 and twenty, thirty million Imperial Guard and their war machines (fleet, void shielded vehicles, other advanced weaponry) to control it day by day in order to avoid it revolting back to where it was in just one month, but in the GW universe a chapter of Space Marines conquers sectors of planets, mostly by dropping fifty guys into some capital, killing a governor of some kind, planting a flag and saying this is ours let's move on. It's hilarious and I've no idea what it has to do with war or controlling hostile territories.
Pretty sure thats how most of the common wealth was created, small fleet some red coats and a flag
Crimson wrote: Space Marines make surgical strikes to destroy the enemy leadership, they do not even attempt to conquer entire planet.
Gav Thorpe is that you?
Let's assume it was possible during war time (which it isn't) to drop a few tactical squads of Space Marines to destroy whoever world leader like the president of USA or a few commie dictators in China. You hypothetically succeed. What now? Is the war over? My friend the war just got started and it won't be over in a hundred years unless there's an Imperial Guard soldier and a tank in every street corner of every city in the world twenty four seven. The whole surgical strike story is just bad science fiction. There's a role for surgical strikes but all it does is disrupt the enemy chain of command for a very small period of time (less than a day in some cases) and that's it.
I think that you assume all planets to have 2000years worth of humans procreating on them
Yeah in many cases they have 40000 years worth of humans procreating on them. Besides, the fluff about 'farm planets' that Marines can conquer is equally ludicrous. There's often only 'one or two agricultural colonies' of people living there and they somehow control machinery enough to mine, farm and patrol the entire planet. GW's writers can't even grasp the size of planets and how many farmers you need to keep your business going for just one year or one harvest. Anyway, GW knows nothing of people, nothing of war and nothing of the galaxy but yet they try to write about soldiers in space fighting to protect and enlarge a future Imperium.
Therion, I understand where you are coming from, but this is commonplace in a lot of Sci Fi.
Look at Battletech. It's almost the exact same story. A dozen dropships land at key cities/points/facilities and destroy the highest grade resistance on the planet and win the whole thing. Move on, and repeat on the next planet.
40k, in my mind is no different in this aspect.
On the other hand, with some imagination, it wouldn't be too hard to believe that if say; some country/nation was invaded by soldiers that are nearly impossible to kill and can kill 20+ soldiers for every one they lose, have your country 100% blockaded from land, sea, and air, and also poses the ability to turn your entire country into smoldering ash with a few pieces of ordinance.... that country would surrender wholesale.
If aliens showed up tomorrow and demonstrated their ability to turn Earth into a fireball or slag all living life with a virus, are you going to lead the revolt?
Pretty sure thats how most of the common wealth was created, small fleet some red coats and a flag
Hehe you're right, and that works fine when the target territory is unpopulated or consists of disorganised people with no government and with no better armament than sticks and stones. Basically a Warhammer Fantasy era instead of an era with stealth bombers, chemical weapons and nanobots that eat you alive.
Pretty sure thats how most of the common wealth was created, small fleet some red coats and a flag
Hehe you're right, and that works fine when the target territory is unpopulated or consists of disorganised people with no government and with no better armament than sticks and stones. Basically a Warhammer Fantasy era instead of an era with stealth bombers, chemical weapons and nanobots that eat you alive.
Space Marines vs. Local Miltia is no different really.
If their weakest guy can take a shot from your best weapon and keep coming, you might want to rethink your stance on subjugation.
So, any guesses over what the new terrain pieces will be? I don't think there's anything the GW terrain range needs per se, other than variety, which wouldnt be the kind of thing they'd likely to do.
Therion wrote: Yeah in many cases they have 40000 years worth of humans procreating on them. Besides, the fluff about 'farm planets' that Marines can conquer is equally ludicrous. There's often only 'one or two agricultural colonies' of people living there and they somehow control machinery enough to mine, farm and patrol the entire planet. GW's writers can't even grasp the size of planets and how many farmers you need to keep your business going for just one year or one harvest. Anyway, GW knows nothing of people, nothing of war and nothing of the galaxy but yet they try to write about soldiers in space fighting to protect and enlarge a future Imperium.
That same farm planet doesn't have a war machine the likes of the US or even Uganda protecting it either. There may be millions of people living on it, but the heaviest firearm they may have it a flintlock with which they shoot wild animals. The Imperium has planets with vastly different levels of technology on them including some planets living in a feudal state. I'm not really sure how that works sociologically to be honest given that planets must have some technology with which to maintain contact with the rest of the imperium including a spaceport where they bring their tithe, but its the way it is nonetheless.
Also keep I mind that there are A LOT of planets where the people have regressed and it is often mentioned the common folk think Space Marines are Gods.
Most of the planets that have put up huge resistance in the 40k fluff have shown to take more than 5-10 Marines to win the war.
Space Marines vs. Local Miltia is no different really. If their weakest guy can take a shot from your best weapon and keep coming, you might want to rethink your stance on subjugation.
Well, there's dozens of times more tanks on modern Terra than there are Space Marines in first, second and third founding chapters combined, so I'd say we're ready to form a galaxy spanning Imperium! We just need jet fuel to send our heroes to space!
Most of the planets that have put up huge resistance in the 40k fluff have shown to take more than 5-10 Marines to win the war.
Yeah like Armageddon that has a population of 200 billion or what and is one of the most important planets in the Imperium. It was so important the Imperium sent 15 Space Marine chapters or so to defend it. 15000 troops. Saddam Hussein and his sons would've defeated those defenders They had what 100K old tanks and other armoured vehicles and a million infantry at their highest point.
TalonZahn wrote: Therion, I understand where you are coming from, but this is commonplace in a lot of Sci Fi.
Look at Battletech. It's almost the exact same story. A dozen dropships land at key cities/points/facilities and destroy the highest grade resistance on the planet and win the whole thing. Move on, and repeat on the next planet.
40k, in my mind is no different in this aspect.
On the other hand, with some imagination, it wouldn't be too hard to believe that if say; some country/nation was invaded by soldiers that are nearly impossible to kill and can kill 20+ soldiers for every one they lose, have your country 100% blockaded from land, sea, and air, and also poses the ability to turn your entire country into smoldering ash with a few pieces of ordinance.... that country would surrender wholesale.
If aliens showed up tomorrow and demonstrated their ability to turn Earth into a fireball or slag all living life with a virus, are you going to lead the revolt?
This pretty much, alot of people forget that being invaded by a marine chapter means much more than having a few super soldiers to contend with. It means that the Imperium of Mankind has thought you enough of a problem to dispatch its forces, which also means that should the marines fail they will just destroy your planet since there are a million other planets that are in compliance. In the fluff many times entire planets surrenders at mere sight of a chapter of marines because of that implication.
Agamemnon2 wrote: So, any guesses over what the new terrain pieces will be? I don't think there's anything the GW terrain range needs per se, other than variety, which wouldnt be the kind of thing they'd likely to do.
A defence laser would be nice, though.
Yeah let's get back on topic.
A Warhound or a Knight doesn't really fit Space Marines, but it would serve as a kit that works for Chaos too. However since they're getting the Khorne-thing the chances of people getting an Imperial/Chaos Scout Titan are small.
I can see there's no getting through to you really.
A bolter fires a 30mm round that explodes on impact and that's the base round. The same size as the average gun on a fighter plane in the U.S. Armed Forces. Modern armor doesn't seem to have an answer for that.
Space Marines don't have to sleep or eat and can operate for weeks on end. The operate in the harshest conditions unaffected. They are immune to nearly all toxins.
It's all a combination of fact and fiction. Some amount of detachment from reality is required. I can't continue this conversation because I will never make any headway regardless of what I say.
[Edit] On topic... GW has a knack for retconning, so at this point it could literally be anything they want to make.
Agamemnon2 wrote: You can try to rationalize it, but it's just gilding thin air, the closer you look at it the more it breaks down.
I can see there's no getting through to you really.
The US have ten thousand Abrams tanks alone. It's a tank much more advanced (by about 50 years) than say a Leman Russ. How many Space Marines does it take to defeat an Abrams MBT? It's just absolutely terrible when you realise that the US military alone could defeat half the armed forces of the Imperium that is supposed to control billions (do you understand the word billions) of star systems during an age with all imaginable technologies available to it. The scale of both space and of populations required and of armed conflicts is so wrong its unreal and nothing you can do to rationalise it with GW's pseudo science ("it works despite making no sense because we have this whateverdevice") regarding their troop armour and weapons will justify it.
Let's assume it was possible during war time (which it isn't) to drop a few tactical squads of Space Marines to destroy whoever world leader like the president of USA or a few commie dictators in China. You hypothetically succeed. What now? Is the war over? My friend the war just got started and it won't be over in a hundred years unless there's an Imperial Guard soldier and a tank in every street corner of every city in the world twenty four seven. The whole surgical strike story is just bad science fiction. There's a role for surgical strikes but all it does is disrupt the enemy chain of command for a very small period of time (less than a day in some cases) and that's it.
In most cases rebellious planets are situations where the governor has been corrupted (by chaos or aliens) or for some other reason decided to give finger to the Imperium. In such situations killing the leadership may indeed end the conflict. And yes, in many cases it could also lead to unrest and anarchy, but that's IG's problem. Marines kill the rebel leaders, declare victory and move on.
(I actually agree that SM Chapters are too small, but MO would have to be the same even if they were ten times larger. They'd still lack numbers to conquer entire planet in conventional manner.)
GW has a knack for retconning, so at this point it could literally be anything they want to make.
I'm fine with a little ret conning but when all of a sudden Titans are piloted by Space Marines and painted in Blood Angels colours instead of the Adeptus Titanicus then stuff has gotten a bit out of hand.
(I actually agree that SM Chapters are too small, but MO would have to be the same even if they were ten times larger. They'd still lack numbers to conquer entire planet in conventional manner.)
They'd lack the numbers even if they were a hundred times larger, in many cases a thousand times larger, but yet in the fluff they conquer planets time and time again. Don't worry, the size of IG regiments and the troop mobilisations mentioned are way too small as well. In GW's world 50000 Imperial Guard is an army ready for Space Crusade. It's a fly's piss in the Atlantic ocean. I was just reading some Chaos stuff where 10000 Khorne Marines assaulted out of EoT and conquered a dozen sectors before stopped. Yeah, ten thousand guys with personal armour and chainsaws just came and conquered fifty defended planets. If they landed in Mexico they wouldn't get past the border before they were all dead Some drug cartel infantry with some US air support could probably already take em out
TalonZahn wrote: I can see there's no getting through to you really.
A bolter fires a 30mm round that explodes on impact and that's the base round. The same size as the average gun on a fighter plane in the U.S. Armed Forces. Modern armor doesn't seem to have an answer for that.
Space Marines don't have to sleep or eat and can operate for weeks on end. The operate in the harshest conditions unaffected. They are immune to nearly all toxins.
It's all a combination of fact and fiction. Some amount of detachment from reality is required. I can't continue this conversation because I will never make any headway regardless of what I say.
[Edit] On topic... GW has a knack for retconning, so at this point it could literally be anything they want to make.
Incorrect. 30mm is only used on the A-10, no other "fighter" sized aircraft mounts anything that size. Standard gun on nearly all of our fighters is the M61A1 20mm cannon.
The forces against which we've shot the 30mm GAU-8 Avenger cannon have not been using the most modern tanks, protected by the most modern armors. What the terminal performance of 3000-6000 RPM of 30mm against an Abrams, I do not know, but I do know that the Abrams' armor has bounced friendly fire and attempts to destroy abandoned tanks with the same gun and AT ammunition used by the Abrams itself. If you're seriously saying that a man-portable 30mm mini-rocket is likely to swiss cheese an Abrams...
How about considering cultural standpoint, too? The Imperium is deathly afraid of technical innovation. We, on the other hand, are going to be working overtime during the conflict to reverse engineer anything and everything that's valuable and recovered. Just think what we could do with the kind of power sources that the imperium has access to, yet doesn't even remotely understand.
We, on the other hand, are going to be working overtime during the conflict to reverse engineer anything and everything that's valuable and recovered. Just think what we could do with the kind of power sources that the imperium has access to, yet doesn't even remotely understand.
Hilariously enough when the US armed forces look at the air forces and ground armour of the Imperium there's nothing there to reverse engineer. Their air support flies on hopes and dreams, the tanks are from world war two and Titans are the most idiotic idea ever being a massive target that will get destroyed by missiles and airforces from miles away before it ever gets to shoot at a living thing. The only thing we'd want is teleportation and power generation for space travel.
We, on the other hand, are going to be working overtime during the conflict to reverse engineer anything and everything that's valuable and recovered. Just think what we could do with the kind of power sources that the imperium has access to, yet doesn't even remotely understand.
Hilariously enough when the US armed forces look at the air forces and ground armour of the Imperium there's nothing there to reverse engineer. Their air support flies on hopes and dreams, the tanks are from world war two and Titans are the most idiotic idea ever being a massive target that will get destroyed by missiles and airforces from miles away before it ever gets to shoot at a living thing. The only thing we'd want is teleportation and power generation for space travel.
Power generation for the battlefield gear, too. Just imagine the kinds of weapons we could put into use with an understanding of the power cells that are used on a lascannon. Or even just the possibilities in the generator backpack that every suit of power armor in the Imperium uses.
EDIT: I also very deliberately used that word, understanding. We would break it down, take it apart, and seek to understand how it works, and start serious thought to how we can make it work better. That cultural difference is a huge advantage. That's what happens when you don't pray to your batteries and ask them nicely, pretty please with some blessed oils on top, to function.
You are correct, the A10 is the only 30mm cannon. No Abrams has ever bounced fire from that gun. If it has, you better cite that in a report. As for "modern armor" you are correct again, because there are only a handful of nations that operate what is considered "modern armor"
This thing is WAY off topic and totally pointless. If you can't suspend belief for some Sci-Fi and it's making your head hurt, what the hell are you doing here anyway?
They're toys, it's Sci-Fi..... it's kind of the entire point.....
So let's skip to the end... the mighty forces of Earth kill the 100 Space Marines they sent with our tens of thousands of tanks and while they cower in their Strike Cruiser as we reverse engineer their tech..... they jam a dozen Cyclonic Torpedoes up our can.
So let's skip to the end... the mighty forces of Earth kill the 100 Space Marines they sent with our tens of thousands of tanks and while they cower in their Strike Cruiser as we reverse engineer their tech..... they jam a dozen Cyclonic Torpedoes up our can.
Where's your God now?
Sci-Fi....
That's the only thing they got going for them. Being in the orbit while we're down here. Give us 100 years. Better than that, gives us knowledge that an assault from space is imminent and we'll be ready in 20. Then we'll conquer the Imperium with the forces of our one planet alone.
That wasn't what we were debating though. We were debating the background material of ground conflicts where civilisations much more advanced than ours cave in the face of a bunch of guys on steroids wielding chainsaws. And make no mistake, a couple hundred guys at that.
I don't have a problem with suspension of disbelief. I can read this crap about weapons and war stratagems that only work in Gav Thorpe's head. What frustrates me is that simple idiocy regarding numbers, scale and distances. You can write the same story and have Space Marine chapters hold 100K Marines and Imperial Guard regiments a million guys each, but I guess it wouldn't be as heroic if Captain Ventris couldn't rescue planetary sectors on his own.
Therion wrote: That's the only thing they got going for them. Being in the orbit while we're down here. Give us 100 years. Then we'll conquer the Imperium with the forces of our one planet alone.
That wasn't what we were debating though. We were debating the background material of ground conflicts where civilisations much more advanced than ours cave in the face of a bunch of guys on steroids wielding chainsaws.
You realize we are Terra in 40k right?
We don't need to conquer the Imperium, we ARE the Imperium.....
Also, remind me again how European Settlers conquered what is now estimated to be around 50 million Native Americans, or the British over India, or Spain over most of Central America, or....
[Edit] On your Edit, it's the same way in Real Life too. You hear about Michael Wittmam, Ernst Barkman, Patton, Rommel, Nelson, Washington... the "heroes", not the cannon fodder...doesn't matter if it was 10 or 10,000.
We don't need to conquer the Imperium, we ARE the Imperium.....
What's this nonsense?
The moment when you realise the guy you're talking to is a child.
It's frustrating.
We aren't the Imperium. The Imperium is a sci-fi setting written by a bunch of British garage gamers with no higher academic education nor military training or understanding of any kind and who like painting toy soldiers. Since you think their setting holds against critical inspection regarding any sort of realism maybe you'll fit right in.
Weren't Termites a Space Marine thing in Epic? That would be pretty cool.
Yes. Hellbores carried like 100 marines.
We need Termites.
Isn't there a Nid that comes up from underground?
Termite: Deep Strike style attack, can scatter but suffers no perils, does damage if it comes up under a unit, can assault from on the turn it arrives.
TalonZahn wrote: You are correct, the A10 is the only 30mm cannon. No Abrams has ever bounced fire from that gun. If it has, you better cite that in a report. As for "modern armor" you are correct again, because there are only a handful of nations that operate what is considered "modern armor"
.
I never said it has. It wouldn't surprise me if we'd tested it, though. Maybe one of my former co-workers who used to work in test has more insight.
Either way, though, the A-10 DU round weighs 15 oz and has a muzzle velocity of about 3500 fps. The M829A1 APDS round for the Abrams weighs 46 pounds (736 oz) with a muzzle velocity of 5170 fps. Are you trying to tell me that armor that has, on the battlefield and at close range, bounced the ADPS, will be popped by the slower, massively lighter weight GAU-8 round? Seriously?
GAU-8 on an Abrams, simply by a factor of the rate of fire, will get a mobility kill. Nothing more. In terms of the damage chart, that's a result of "immobilized" with no hull point loss.
The moment when you realise the guy you're talking to is a child.
It's frustrating.
We aren't the Imperium. The Imperium is a sci-fi setting written by a bunch of British garage gamers with no higher academic education nor military training or understanding of any kind and who like painting toy soldiers. Since you think their setting holds against critical inspection regarding any sort of realism maybe you'll fit right in.
Oh, that's not nice.
Name calling isn't good for you.
The entire story is based around world history in a Sci-Fi setting.
Therion wrote: That's the only thing they got going for them. Being in the orbit while we're down here. Give us 100 years. Then we'll conquer the Imperium with the forces of our one planet alone.
That wasn't what we were debating though. We were debating the background material of ground conflicts where civilisations much more advanced than ours cave in the face of a bunch of guys on steroids wielding chainsaws.
You realize we are Terra in 40k right?
We don't need to conquer the Imperium, we ARE the Imperium.....
Also, remind me again how European Settlers conquered what is now estimated to be around 50 million Native Americans, or the British over India, or Spain over most of Central America, or....
[Edit] On your Edit, it's the same way in Real Life too. You hear about Michael Wittmam, Ernst Barkman, Patton, Rommel, Nelson, Washington... the "heroes", not the cannon fodder...doesn't matter if it was 10 or 10,000.
Most of them had already died due to famine from having deforested most of the continent a couple hundred years before Europeans showed up, and disease that was aided hugely by said famine?
GAU-8 on an Abrams, simply by a factor of the rate of fire, will get a mobility kill. Nothing more. In terms of the damage chart, that's a result of "immobilized" with no hull point loss.
Additionally you should factor in the fact that when GW assigned calibers to their weapons they just copypasted random numbers off the internet. At no point do they understand what it means or how deadly it should be, how much ammo it should hold and where its stored etc. That's why in one theory the Space Marine bolter should be some type of equivalent to that on a Warthog, but in game terms it cannot penetrate the armour of even the lightest personnel carrier and has a 66% chance of wounding a man in a t-shirt. You'll find the same type of technological gaffes when you read the 'specs' of a Leman Russ from one of those old WD articles that were written while Gav Thorpe was taking a dump. I remember when people applied the specs onto the model and realised that in the real world the Leman Russ is more the size of a large RC-car than a tank
My sources (for what they are worth) say that Space Marines will not be getting any new vehicles in the Apocalypse release, but they can expect a very large flier with their codex around October / November.
Apparently, it's going to come with a suitably scary price tag; significantly less than the FW Thunderhawk, but more than the $200 US figure that people have been hoping for...
but they can expect a very large flier with their codex around October / November.
Atleast it's a Space Marine vehicle that exists in the fluff. They should've given Chaos a corrupted scout Titan though instead of that thing on wheels. A missed opportunity to make a lot of money, then.
TalonZahn wrote: You are correct, the A10 is the only 30mm cannon. No Abrams has ever bounced fire from that gun. If it has, you better cite that in a report. As for "modern armor" you are correct again, because there are only a handful of nations that operate what is considered "modern armor"
The M1 Abrams had a 105mm cannon. In the Gulf War when attempting to destroy disabled M1 Abrams they found that it could take multiple rounds from another M1 Abrams (at 105mm) to its rear armor (weakest protection) without being destroyed. Thus brought about the M1A1 Abrams with a 120mm cannon....because they wanted to at least have a chance to penetrate a vehicle of similar armor.
An RPG-7 penetrates up to 300mm of armor. And doesn't do much to an Abrams.
Gau-8 penetrates up to 38mm of armor at optimal distance.
The Warthog once all the Oooos and Ahhhhs are taken away is an amazing jet. That kills vehicles and soft targets with a BFG and tanks with the crap ton of anti-tank missiles it carries (there is a reason why it carries anti-tank missiles).
Of course all of this is moot because the Bolter is .75 cal. Which is the size of a 12 gauge shotgun round. An thus would look like the A-12 shotguns grenade shell.
Any whooooo....... why have I not heard anything else on those Necron models!!!? I am predicting that the "closed" version is actually just the Monolith. Seeing as it has 4 Gauss flayer arrays and all that jazz.
I can't believe you guys are arguing about Earth vs. IoM, seriously go to the off topic forum.
That Korn warmachine thing looks bloody retardo. I'm sick of these retardo looking "big" vehicle models kick GW is on. Both the Tau and Eldar fluff seem to contradict the use of large hard to hide battle suits that can be out outmaneuver pretty easily, arn't Eldar and Tau all about outmaneuvering their enemys?
I swear GW is pushing these large retardo models just for the sake of it without second thought. I never played Epic but I would think the blood god would want a machine that would shed blood, not just shoot people into a red mist?... meh...oh well.......
BrassScorpion wrote: Orks already have a dedicated Apocalypse kit, so do Imperial Guard and now it appears Chaos Marines and Necrons will have something too. The Eldar Wraithknight being a mini-Titan should give Eldar a nice Apocalypse boost. What's amazing is that the most popular model range, Space Marines, apparently will still not have a dedicated large model kit for Apocalypse. Very odd and a bit mystifying since there's clearly money to be made in doing such a thing.
The Space Marines also, in theory, had a dedicated apocalypse unit, albeit one that was just a land raider with some predator weapons added.
Perfect Organism wrote: My sources (for what they are worth) say that Space Marines will not be getting any new vehicles in the Apocalypse release, but they can expect a very large flier with their codex around October / November.
Apparently, it's going to come with a suitably scary price tag; significantly less than the FW Thunderhawk, but more than the $200 US figure that people have been hoping for...
If there is a plastic Thunderhawk I think we'll be looking at $250 US, maybe even $299 ($300).
The Space Marines also, in theory, had a dedicated apocalypse unit, albeit one that was just a land raider with some predator weapons added.
Yes, they had datasheets and units, every army did, that's not a large dedicated kit produced specifically for Apocalypse that is larger than a Land Raider.
Though I am proud of my Land Raider Ultra conversion:
i agree, 40k tech wins all the way from a terminator walking up to the tank, shrugging of shell and then crumpling the tank with his power fist, the whole discussion is moet, The fluff says that 100 marines can take an advanced planet, then current earth wouldn't stand a chance.
Anyway the weak-point of an Abraham's is its gas tank, kill the supply line and you have some nice roadblock material.
The rumours so far have completely deflated my hype for the new Apoc apart from the book itself of course, I suppose at least I can now concentrate on a new army or something.
Really hope more WD pics get leaked though, need to know whats releasing so I dont have to sit here waiting when I could be planning my next purchase.
Yeah, and awesomely, these leaks came out just before the Deadzone kickstarter ended.
With no appearance of a Knight Paladin, all my spare cash went into that.
Plus with the current Chaos models looking so frigging daft, including the big guy, my Chaos Space Marine army plans have been put on hold. Probably indefinitely. - Which is really annoying considering I bought a hellblade this time last year!
My GW spending plans for the forseeable future are the Apocalypse rulebook, Abaddon+Loken and the new Space Marine codex.
But really, playing Chaos and not converting the heck out of it , doesn't makes sense...
its like being a metal fan, but you don't like Dio...
Speaking of wich...
That makes me want to get a Khornemower, convert it to a mobile stage, replace the axe with a coffee urn and model Dethklok performing in it. Bravo, sir!
But really, playing Chaos and not converting the heck out of it , doesn't makes sense...
its like being a metal fan, but you don't like Dio...
It's the exact opposite of being a metal fan that doesn't like Dio. It's like being a metal fan who likes Dio, and not the one who thinks Dio sounds like gak unless you remix it.
McNinja wrote: A good model can make up for poor rules by being a nice display piece. A poor model is still going to look silly, no matter if it has BS5 and a Str D AP1 heavy 30 weapon or not.
I deeply disagree with that.
If a terrible model has nice( or good ) rules, you can always convert or kitbash the model.
If a good model has terrible rules, no matter what, it will stay terrible, and having a dust collector that costs 100$ on my shelve, is not something good, or i can use it, or i don't buy it( yes despite beeing the geek i am i don't collect action figures and such, don't have enough place at home for that).
But thats more a matter of perspective i think.
What i'm really curious is how the Apoc rules will be changed and to what degree.
Because there is gonna be changes, no matter what, still wonder if it will stay an Happy-go-all thing, or something with a bit more structure at the price of freedom.
Im sure the apoc rules haven't changed much, it will still be the brutally one sided waste of time and lesson in money priority as it was before. GW expansions are and always have been pointless.
BramGaunt over at Warseer wrote:So, a birdy just chirped in and told me what to expect next month.
1st: There is a new rulebook, if anyone still questioned that. Complete overhaul. The scale of additional shenanigans will be the same as with a regular rulebook, as well as limited items. Probably a collectors- and a gamers edition aswell (allthough I am only guessing that!).
2nd: The kits we have seen so far cover all the miniatures there will be for now (Khorne "Skulldozer" and Necron "Monolith of Doom + 2D6"). However, there are three new pieces of terrain, which apperantly are of apocalyptic size. A different source told me of a 'commad citadel' behind which the Wraithknight could easily hide.
3rd: Releasedate is the 13th of July, with Preorders starting the 29th (with the new WD, as usual). This is GW's big release this year.
Best_Pone over at Warseer wrote:Let's see now...
You've already seen the Chaos and Necron superheavies.
You'll also get some fortifications - giant gun/missile emplacements and the like. These are also designed to hook up with the Wall of Martyrs terrain.
As well as the Apocalypse rulebook, there's also a collector's edition and a gamer's edition.
BramGaunt over at Warseer wrote:So, a birdy just chirped in and told me what to expect next month.
1st: There is a new rulebook, if anyone still questioned that. Complete overhaul. The scale of additional shenanigans will be the same as with a regular rulebook, as well as limited items. Probably a collectors- and a gamers edition aswell (allthough I am only guessing that!).
2nd: The kits we have seen so far cover all the miniatures there will be for now (Khorne "Skulldozer" and Necron "Monolith of Doom + 2D6"). However, there are three new pieces of terrain, which apperantly are of apocalyptic size. A different source told me of a 'commad citadel' behind which the Wraithknight could easily hide.
3rd: Releasedate is the 13th of July, with Preorders starting the 29th (with the new WD, as usual). This is GW's big release this year.
Best_Pone over at Warseer wrote:Let's see now...
You've already seen the Chaos and Necron superheavies.
You'll also get some fortifications - giant gun/missile emplacements and the like. These are also designed to hook up with the Wall of Martyrs terrain.
As well as the Apocalypse rulebook, there's also a collector's edition and a gamer's edition.
So the only 'new' bit (not counting the fact that there's some unrecognised piece of terrain in the monolith picture) is the new terrain and some 'guesses' there will be a collector's edition (which given GW's releases lately seems very very likely).
BramGaunt over at Warseer wrote:So, a birdy just chirped in and told me what to expect next month.
1st: There is a new rulebook, if anyone still questioned that. Complete overhaul. The scale of additional shenanigans will be the same as with a regular rulebook, as well as limited items. Probably a collectors- and a gamers edition aswell (allthough I am only guessing that!).
2nd: The kits we have seen so far cover all the miniatures there will be for now (Khorne "Skulldozer" and Necron "Monolith of Doom + 2D6"). However, there are three new pieces of terrain, which apperantly are of apocalyptic size. A different source told me of a 'commad citadel' behind which the Wraithknight could easily hide.
3rd: Releasedate is the 13th of July, with Preorders starting the 29th (with the new WD, as usual). This is GW's big release this year.
Best_Pone over at Warseer wrote:Let's see now...
You've already seen the Chaos and Necron superheavies.
You'll also get some fortifications - giant gun/missile emplacements and the like. These are also designed to hook up with the Wall of Martyrs terrain.
As well as the Apocalypse rulebook, there's also a collector's edition and a gamer's edition.
We can't supply enough material to flgs, but somehow we can make kits so huge that only three people might buy it and clog up our warehouses for months I know people will buy terrain, but really, can't GW work on getting the armies to people before trying to get people to want bigger armies that they can't supply?
The first set of Apocalypse rules were really just play with what you want and here's a bunch of stuff you can't use in regular 40k. Which is fine and the rules served their purpose, but to me it was more like I don't need to buy a $50 book for GWs permission to make up rules and use whatever models I want, plus the point values for the Apocalypse formations and Apocalypse units seemed arbitrary and had little to do with their combat effectiveness.
GW could expand on the 2000+pt format similar to how Adepticon runs its Gladiator tournament where Superheavies replace the secondary FOC or use rules that allow for multiple allied detachments or unit sizes above their normally allowed maxes(for example squads of 12 Necron Wraiths). Really what it needs is some level of structure which the first edition felt was essential to simply ignore. However, I felt it made the game beyond broken and simply not fun at all to play.
BramGaunt over at Warseer wrote:A different source told me of a 'commad citadel' behind which the Wraithknight could easily hide.
Does Mr. Source know that you can already hide a Wraithknight behind an Imperial Bastian?
It's probably the new eldar outpost he's talking about(basically the bastion, but with stick on gems to make it eldary, just like the spikes make it chaos ) sorry, couldn't resist.
Gitzbitah wrote: So- open megalith- what are your bets? Super transporter, or Death Ray?
I'm on the side of Death Ray, probably based around teleporting asteroids out of thin air at you, or something equally over the top.
Could be an Aeonic Orb, especially if they're drawing from Epic with these new releases. Oh, how I hope it's an Aeonic Orb!
Neither of them are Megaliths though unless the "drops numerous Monoliths off of its hull" thing in our Codex was a lie.
Maybe the closed version is a Warbarque? Aren't those basically souped-up Monoliths?
Actually, Aeonic Orb sounds pretty likely:
From Lexicamum:
This essence is then encased in an orb-shaped containment field that sits on top of a skimmer platform, giving this weapon system frightening mobility, which is most often used to give the Æonic Orb the most favorable firing positions to take out enemy titans.
The image next to the entry also looks similar to the weapon mounted on the new Necron vehicle:
Shandara wrote: So the only 'new' bit (not counting the fact that there's some unrecognised piece of terrain in the monolith picture) is the new terrain and some 'guesses' there will be a collector's edition (which given GW's releases lately seems very very likely).
Thought it was clear enough. Anyway:
Bramgaunt:
1.) Release date 13th July (so second week!, plus 2 weeks preorder time)
2.) Confirms two unit kits (and not more than two units, for e.g. other armies))
3.) Confirms 3 terrain kits (we might have seen the edge of one), one of them a command citadel
4.) Confirms rulebook with complete overhaul of rules (and yes, Apocalypse 1 had some rules to simplify fight on such a big scale) .
Best_Pone confirms Gamer's and Collector's edition and a gun/missile emplacement fitting the Wall of Martyrs.
Power generation for the battlefield gear, too. Just imagine the kinds of weapons we could put into use with an understanding of the power cells that are used on a lascannon. Or even just the possibilities in the generator backpack that every suit of power armor in the Imperium uses.
Portable energy generation and power armour would be the two main advantages of the Imperium.
Considering the Astartes vs. modern humans scenario, I would suggest that a Lascannon or a Meltagun packs enough punch to go through a modern battle tank, considering that they are supposed to be more powerful than "average" anti-armour missiles. If we combine such a powerful man-portable weapon with a highly mobile Astartes who's very difficult to kill, that's gonna be a problem, especially in urban battlezones that provide a lot of cover and are very difficult to level completely or cordon off. If there's more than one marine, you also have the problem of excellent training, motivation, communication and coordination between them.
I think you would need a .50 or larger to touch an Astartes, and he could take a few of those and still be able to function. Considering that modern armies have problems of flushing out poorly equipped insurgents from urban areas, even a single Astartes might be a big problem, let alone a squad of them. You could send squads of APCs with 20-30mm cannons after a single marine, but considering an Astartes is a small, well-armored and fast moving target able to snipe from shadows, I'd say you'd lose many of them.
Shandara wrote: So the only 'new' bit (not counting the fact that there's some unrecognised piece of terrain in the monolith picture) is the new terrain and some 'guesses' there will be a collector's edition (which given GW's releases lately seems very very likely).
Thought it was clear enough. Anyway:
Bramgaunt:
1.) Release date 13th July (so second week!, plus 2 weeks preorder time)
2.) Confirms two unit kits (and not more than two units, for e.g. other armies))
3.) Confirms 3 terrain kits (we might have seen the edge of one), one of them a command citadel
4.) Confirms rulebook with complete overhaul of rules (and yes, Apocalypse 1 had some rules to simplify fight on such a big scale) .
Best_Pone confirms Gamer's and Collector's edition and a gun/missile emplacement fitting the Wall of Martyrs.
Will there be some discount packages for multiple tanks etc? How is Apocalypse a big release if all they do is release 2 models and one book that tells people to make up their own rules?
Agamemnon2 wrote: You can try to rationalize it, but it's just gilding thin air, the closer you look at it the more it breaks down.
I can see there's no getting through to you really.
The US have ten thousand Abrams tanks alone. It's a tank much more advanced (by about 50 years) than say a Leman Russ. How many Space Marines does it take to defeat an Abrams MBT? It's just absolutely terrible when you realise that the US military alone could defeat half the armed forces of the Imperium that is supposed to control billions (do you understand the word billions) of star systems during an age with all imaginable technologies available to it. The scale of both space and of populations required and of armed conflicts is so wrong its unreal and nothing you can do to rationalise it with GW's pseudo science ("it works despite making no sense because we have this whateverdevice") regarding their troop armour and weapons will justify it.
The US could do bugger all after all major cities were destroyed by precision strike orbital bombardment and 100 marines stormed the white house forcing the presidant to surrender.
Just look at the Opium War - 20,000 British soldiers defeated a nation of 300 million people, equipped with modern arms and artillery. But they still got their ass handed to them by a better organised opponent who were able to strike at will.
200 space marines could easily pacify a planet, simply because they could strike whenever and wherever they wanted, with complete local superiority of arms.
Therion wrote: Will there be some discount packages for multiple tanks etc? How is Apocalypse a big release if all they do is release 2 models and one book that tells people to make up their own rules?
That's what I'd like to know. The first release of Apocalypse only introduced the baneblade IIRC, but we got all the bundles to go with it (three tanks for $90, woo). If all we get this time around are two "big" kits and some "big" terrain kits that honestly sound like they might be too impractical for regular games (like the stupid fortress), then this release sounds like it's going to be pretty weak. Two whole armies actually get models to buy, holy gak.
Or you could be optimistic and take note of the reduced price GW bundles that have been released...maybe we'll get six Leman Russes @ 15% off? Hell I'd pay that.
Depends how GW goes about it, last time GW sold the bundles to LGSs and you could get a further discount. With GWs current state of mind I imagine its all direct only.
Ravenous D wrote:With GWs current state of mind I imagine its all direct only.
I hope not. If they are direct only I don't know if I'd be buying any. I'm gonna be spending full retail on them anyway since I don't get discounts at my LGS, but I'd prefer to support my store instead.
Ravenous D wrote: Depends how GW goes about it, last time GW sold the bundles to LGSs and you could get a further discount. With GWs current state of mind I imagine its all direct only.
That would be a classic move..
"Look! For a limited time you can buy these things from us for only slightly more than most of you pay for them all the time! This is good news!!!!1"
Depends how GW goes about it, last time GW sold the bundles to LGSs and you could get a further discount. With GWs current state of mind I imagine its all direct only.
Partially correct. Some bundle deals were available through independent sellers and some were not. Some of the bundle Apocalypse deals had their own special boxes for retailing and of those some were available from independent sellers. Some deals were only at GW stores. Still other deals were direct only because they were just loose sprues in a shipping box. In other words, these were direct only because they had no retail style packaging with photos on it, GW just packed the appropriate sprues when the deal was ordered in a plain brown shipping box and sent it to you or your local GW store if you had it delivered there.
The bundle deals GW has sold the past couple Decembers have had dedicated retail packaging (i.e., attractive boxes with photos showing the contents) so that they can sit on a shelf in stores. If they go that route some of the deals may be available through independent sellers too. That's assuming they have any Apocalypse bundle deals this time around. Apocalypse deals began in October 2007 with Apocalypse version one release and ran through much of 2008, but there hasn't been anything like that since then. Who knows what's coming or not in July.
Thankfully I bought a ton of bundle deals then that not only bulked out existing armies, but made it economical to start new ones with new model releases years later (e.g., Necrons, Tau). Otherwise, there are a lot of hobby projects I never would have touched at all or they'd be a lot smaller given current prices. Linebreakers (three Vindicators with both Imperial and Chaos hatch sprues) were $95 US. Three Vindicators now is nearly $180! I bought three Linebreaker deals and have a full Linebreaker squadron for my Chaos Mariines, Dark Angels and custom Space Marine chapter. There are photos of two of them in my Dakka Gallery.
I might be interested in the Wall O' Dead Cadians add-ons, but I somehow doubt that GW will price it in a way to make it alluring. Doesn't sound like a complete pass from the rumors at least.
I can safely live without the Khornemower and the big Monolith, so unless that terrain is really awesome (possible, since I"m a heavy Imperial player) or they come back with some good bundles like the original Apocalypse my wallet will once again be bored.
For the best really, it's still reeling from buying lots of other models from other companies...
Krinsath wrote: I might be interested in the Wall O' Dead Cadians add-ons, but I somehow doubt that GW will price it in a way to make it alluring. Doesn't sound like a complete pass from the rumors at least.
Could we perhaps finally get rules for the existing Wall of Martyrs pieces?
Krinsath wrote: I might be interested in the Wall O' Dead Cadians add-ons, but I somehow doubt that GW will price it in a way to make it alluring. Doesn't sound like a complete pass from the rumors at least.
Could we perhaps finally get rules for the existing Wall of Martyrs pieces?
+1 to Cover Save for every 25 Skulls up to a Maximum of 2++
Yeah I would guess apoc based terrain like a super duper bunker or something.
At least I will have a big ass game to look forward to next month. Just as long as this time mine and everyone elses (at my area of the game) all infantry army doesnt get put up against titans, baneblades and a ton of vehicles.
Therion wrote: Will there be some discount packages for multiple tanks etc? How is Apocalypse a big release if all they do is release 2 models and one book that tells people to make up their own rules?
That's what I'd like to know. The first release of Apocalypse only introduced the baneblade IIRC, but we got all the bundles to go with it (three tanks for $90, woo). If all we get this time around are two "big" kits and some "big" terrain kits that honestly sound like they might be too impractical for regular games (like the stupid fortress), then this release sounds like it's going to be pretty weak. Two whole armies actually get models to buy, holy gak.
They've got to do something to make an impact. The release date is no coincidence to me, as GW is obviously very much aware of much of their fanbase being diverted to other companies, PP's release of the Convergence of Cyriss is 3 days earlier. Apocalypse last time around was marketed towards the long-term fans of the game: "Look now you can use your whole collection". A good way to get a few good graces is to re-release those bundle deals from the first Apocalypse release IMO.
Therion wrote: Will there be some discount packages for multiple tanks etc? How is Apocalypse a big release if all they do is release 2 models and one book that tells people to make up their own rules?
That's what I'd like to know. The first release of Apocalypse only introduced the baneblade IIRC, but we got all the bundles to go with it (three tanks for $90, woo). If all we get this time around are two "big" kits and some "big" terrain kits that honestly sound like they might be too impractical for regular games (like the stupid fortress), then this release sounds like it's going to be pretty weak. Two whole armies actually get models to buy, holy gak.
They've got to do something to make an impact. The release date is no coincidence to me, as GW is obviously very much aware of much of their fanbase being diverted to other companies, PP's release of the Convergence of Cyriss is 3 days earlier. Apocalypse last time around was marketed towards the long-term fans of the game: "Look now you can use your whole collection". A good way to get a few good graces is to re-release those bundle deals from the first Apocalypse release IMO.
I think you're reading far too much into the release date.
They've been doing the whole "preorders during the first week of a month, releases during the second week of a month" thing for long enough that it really should be well-known at this point.
The first Saturday of July is the 6th(rumored time for preorders) the second Saturday of July is the 13th(rumored release).
Therion wrote: Will there be some discount packages for multiple tanks etc? How is Apocalypse a big release if all they do is release 2 models and one book that tells people to make up their own rules?
That's what I'd like to know. The first release of Apocalypse only introduced the baneblade IIRC, but we got all the bundles to go with it (three tanks for $90, woo). If all we get this time around are two "big" kits and some "big" terrain kits that honestly sound like they might be too impractical for regular games (like the stupid fortress), then this release sounds like it's going to be pretty weak. Two whole armies actually get models to buy, holy gak.
They've got to do something to make an impact. The release date is no coincidence to me, as GW is obviously very much aware of much of their fanbase being diverted to other companies, PP's release of the Convergence of Cyriss is 3 days earlier. Apocalypse last time around was marketed towards the long-term fans of the game: "Look now you can use your whole collection". A good way to get a few good graces is to re-release those bundle deals from the first Apocalypse release IMO.
I think you're reading far too much into the release date.
They've been doing the whole "preorders during the first week of a month, releases during the second week of a month" thing for long enough that it really should be well-known at this point.
The first Saturday of July is the 6th(rumored time for preorders) the second Saturday of July is the 13th(rumored release).
BramGaunt over at Warseer wrote:So, a birdy just chirped in and told me what to expect next month.
1st: There is a new rulebook, if anyone still questioned that. Complete overhaul. The scale of additional shenanigans will be the same as with a regular rulebook, as well as limited items. Probably a collectors- and a gamers edition aswell (allthough I am only guessing that!).
2nd: The kits we have seen so far cover all the miniatures there will be for now (Khorne "Skulldozer" and Necron "Monolith of Doom + 2D6"). However, there are three new pieces of terrain, which apperantly are of apocalyptic size. A different source told me of a 'commad citadel' behind which the Wraithknight could easily hide.
3rd: Releasedate is the 13th of July, with Preorders starting the 29th (with the new WD, as usual). This is GW's big release this year.
Best_Pone over at Warseer wrote:Let's see now...
You've already seen the Chaos and Necron superheavies.
You'll also get some fortifications - giant gun/missile emplacements and the like. These are also designed to hook up with the Wall of Martyrs terrain.
As well as the Apocalypse rulebook, there's also a collector's edition and a gamer's edition.
Seems to be (strangely, for GW.) a 2 week preorder window (maybe also to cope with the 4th July weekend). I still say GW are acutely aware that companies like PP are siphoning there customer base. Apoc was marketed towards their older market last time around and I don't see how this aspect will change. What better to make some people who are on the fence to spend their budget on GW stuff rather than their biggest rival's (arguably) biggest release of the year so far?
10 spawn and 10 marines is now $240, god I hope they do these deals again, GW might be shocked with the amount of money they could make by providing discounts.
Edit: Confused why no rumours have commented on this.
unmercifulconker wrote: 10 spawn and 10 marines is now $240, god I hope they do these deals again, GW might be shocked with the amount of money they could make by providing discounts.
Edit: Confused why no rumours have commented on this.
Well, they've been doing squadrons of bikes and small vehicles recently as well. Right now you can get 3 bikes for $40 instead of $45, 3 Vypers or War Walkers for $75 instead of $90, and another deal or two here and there. Nothing quite on the scale of the old Apocalypse boxes, but hey, a deal's a deal.
bodazoka wrote: Irony is grown men playing a toy game complaining that there toys look too much like toys. lol
If you honestly feel like that, you won't mind if I replace your miniatures with My Little Pony toys, right? All toys are essentially interchangeable, right?
Right. Thought not. Your argument is knaveish and dishonest.
Agamemnon2 wrote: If you honestly feel like that, you won't mind if I replace your miniatures with My Little Pony toys, right? All toys are essentially interchangeable, right?
Right. Thought not. Your argument is knaveish and dishonest.
Ofcourse he minds, because Warhammer is much more expensive than MLP-toys.
But in the end it are both toys.
That's not my point of contention. My point of contention is that aesthetic still matters, and that saying "Irony is grown men playing a toy game complaining that there toys look too much like toys" is not in fact ironic. Complaining these toys "look like toys" is a complaint over specific aesthetic features, not a rejection of their ontological state of toyhood.
bodazoka wrote: Irony is grown men playing a toy game complaining that there toys look too much like toys. lol
If you honestly feel like that, you won't mind if I replace your miniatures with My Little Pony toys, right? All toys are essentially interchangeable, right?
Right. Thought not. Your argument is knaveish and dishonest.
Exactly! If we did that then we'd bring all the bronies out of the woodwork and have to listen to interminable arguments about how pony X is OP or pony Y should be the best according to the fluff or you can't believe the retcon to so-and-so's backstory they did between the 80s edition and the latest version or how they look so much more cartoon-y now. Actually, I'm not sure this illustration has helped your point, it sounds like the community would be the same... </tongue-in-cheek>
Joking aside, while it'd be nice if they could make a model to satisfy everyone's desires I think we can all agree that will never happen. They might have been able to get it closer to that mark than the Khornemower, but it is what it is. So long as the rules are provided so people can make things to "counts as" that meets their own personal requirements it's really a non-issue for the consumer. Sucks for GW to have to sit on a bunch of stock that they can't move, but that's the gamble you take...
Via Warseer's The Dark General
It's a dual kit approx size of baneblade box, but taller model. Makes either the Deathdealer or Lord of Battles.
Also there's a bunch of new data sheets, inlcuding some for those of us that bought multiple NEW models
It's also NOT the only Chaos models coming out, along with a few other Khorne...speedy guys...
Approx price is $125
via Opatija
got some quick information about the upcoming release. It´s "just" what the employees were told, which in some cases is not very reliable:
- Apocalyspe is mostly about formations with some minor benefits for the "units"
- There will be at least 2 waves for mini supply (Some of the missing miniatures will be released when their own 6th codex is)
- Each army is going to get a super heavy, beeing asked about such a huge release, they were told to keep the Allied Forces in mind, leaving Tyranids aside (speculated as an Imperial/SM Multipart kit) which will hit at around 125,-€ (It´s quite possible that the Chaos thing and the Monolith are the only ones! And Baneblades/Shadowswords are accessable via Allied Forces!)
- A large/multi part piece of Terrain fitting to the "Martyrs"-Line (80,-€/50,-€/30,-€)
All in all even the Employees are not very excited for the release so better don't expect to much when reading the rumours about those gigantic Release-Wave(s)
Gamers Edition - it's going to include templates and dice but one very curious thing was said: "...containing a Apocalypse Rulebook in your language"
It was specificaly mentioned. I would not have thought GW might release a English-Only Book....but then i was reminded of Dfts...
bodazoka wrote: Irony is grown men playing a toy game complaining that there toys look too much like toys. lol
If you honestly feel like that, you won't mind if I replace your miniatures with My Little Pony toys, right? All toys are essentially interchangeable, right?
Right. Thought not. Your argument is knaveish and dishonest.
Toys looking like toys in no way implies all toys are interchangeable. But this is coming from a guy that fails to see irony.
Keep throwing out new codices and models GW. If someone doesn't like them then they just won't buy them.
That whole alliance matrix is BS. Either no one should be able to ally or everyone should be able to ally with everyone else. Keeping it fluffy cause all kinds of imbalances in the game.
Davespil wrote: That whole alliance matrix is BS. Either no one should be able to ally or everyone should be able to ally with everyone else. Keeping it fluffy cause all kinds of imbalances in the game.
If they made it fluffy, then I'd have understood it, but they made it partially fluffy and partially WTF???
The Grey Knight/Necron team up and the Tau and Codex Marines one are both instances of boggling non-fluff.
And if it was designed, as it appears to be given the tyranid no allies rule, then the design studio should have been ready with a boost of another kind for nids, a change in points or some other form of amendment to bring some vague sense of balance.
(or, just possibly, they should have made an 'any army may ally with any army' basic rule and made the allies matrix an optional additional rule, along with all the terrain stuff.).
bodazoka wrote: Irony is grown men playing a toy game complaining that there toys look too much like toys. lol
If you honestly feel like that, you won't mind if I replace your miniatures with My Little Pony toys, right? All toys are essentially interchangeable, right?
Right. Thought not. Your argument is knaveish and dishonest.
So it sounds like they are keying up some new formations to fit in the newer model types. Unfortunately....I have no will to buy a Wraithknight let alone 3+ Wraithknights....
Hopefully my Scorpion Heavy Grav and/or Firestorm get updated from GW or FW.
If you remember, there was chatter for months over TWO Eldar flyer kits that were in production.
The two fighters in the Crimson Hunter/Hemlock box was one AND there was a larger bomber that was sighted by sources. Its possible this bomber is being held for either a second Eldar wave, or Apocalypse. In anycase that bomber didn't ship in the codex-release wave.
The things you will notice compared to the fighter are:
-Lengthier fuselage
-Wider wingspan without the forward curving wings of the fighters
-Dual closely mounted engines per wing (4 engines in total)
-Dual cockpits (pilot and gunner)
-Probably bombs underslung as well
Now we wait...
Very salty. Especially since we haven't seen any second waves in quite some time.
Do we really have to call it the 'Dick Plane'? Now that we've seen a better rendering, it really doesn't look like a dick and most of us are out of middle school.
There's also some extra engines and modified wings, but yeah, it's obviously a phooshop of the Crimson Hunter's top view. Could be just a way to explain how the new plane would look, but it all seems very doubtful.
If it's even real at all, it seems more likely to just be mistaken for the missing DE bomber.
pretre wrote: Do we really have to call it the 'Dick Plane'? Now that we've seen a better rendering, it really doesn't look like a dick and most of us are out of middle school.
How do you know? It's been a while since I glanced the Dark Eldar codex,, but I believe it doesn't even have codex art if I recall correctly? And even if it has, GW doesn't always follow codex art looks when something finally receives a model (e.g. the Tyrannofex and the Manticore I believe). Or am I missing something?
bodazoka wrote: Irony is grown men playing a toy game complaining that there toys look too much like toys. lol
Technically, there's supposed to be a difference between playing with toys and collecting "fine miniatures", but GW has been pretty successful in blurring the line lately..
bodazoka wrote: Irony is grown men playing a toy game complaining that there toys look too much like toys. lol
Technically, there's supposed to be a difference between collecting toys and painting "fine miniatures", but GW has been pretty successful in blurring the line lately..
If you say so, but I suggest you check out some of the toy fandom's customizers and customization forums before making that call.
Frenyrumble's a good start. So are those Steampunk Star Wars figures.
Anybody else curious as to the reason behind the absolute death of Apoc rumors? Doesn't bode well. Either the original leak of information was all that is coming from the Apoc release, or GW is getting much better than the NSA on keeping people quiet.
Farseer Faenyin wrote: Anybody else curious as to the reason behind the absolute death of Apoc rumors? Doesn't bode well. Either the original leak of information was all that is coming from the Apoc release, or GW is getting much better than the NSA on keeping people quiet.
GW's been really tight on leaks. We usually don't know anything until about a week before the WD comes out; the fact we got a cover shot and picture of that Monolith thing so early is really unusual. It's been like this going back to September at least.
Farseer Faenyin wrote: Anybody else curious as to the reason behind the absolute death of Apoc rumors? Doesn't bode well. Either the original leak of information was all that is coming from the Apoc release, or GW is getting much better than the NSA on keeping people quiet.
GW's been really tight on leaks. We usually don't know anything until about a week before the WD comes out; the fact we got a cover shot and picture of that Monolith thing so early is really unusual. It's been like this going back to September at least.
Only getting a pic of the cover and one page was the unusual thing.
I was more surprised by how early the apocalypse White Dwarf was leaked: which may explain the lack of subsequent rumours, as they typically come much closer to release.
Okay, I laughed out loud when I saw that Khorne demon engine. That thing is just goofy looking. It's hard to make that concept look good. It's a big guy stuck on tank tranks. It doesn't have the feel that Chaos should have (being cool looking) and doesn't fit in with the fluff. Wouldn't they have knights and titans of different sizes? Why make up something that just looks stupid? I realize that it's old school epic, but some ideas should be left to die, and this was one of them.
Farseer Faenyin wrote: Anybody else curious as to the reason behind the absolute death of Apoc rumors? Doesn't bode well. Either the original leak of information was all that is coming from the Apoc release, or GW is getting much better than the NSA on keeping people quiet.
GW's been really tight on leaks. We usually don't know anything until about a week before the WD comes out; the fact we got a cover shot and picture of that Monolith thing so early is really unusual. It's been like this going back to September at least.
Was I smoking crack when every single 6th edition codex had all its info leaked well before publication then?
MWHistorian wrote: Okay, I laughed out loud when I saw that Khorne demon engine. That thing is just goofy looking. It's hard to make that concept look good. It's a big guy stuck on tank tranks. It doesn't have the feel that Chaos should have (being cool looking) and doesn't fit in with the fluff. Wouldn't they have knights and titans of different sizes? Why make up something that just looks stupid? I realize that it's old school epic, but some ideas should be left to die, and this was one of them.
A lot of people disagree with you. There are tons of players on these forums who love the old-school way of 40k, when things were silly and campy. Chaos was only evil because it had sharp teeth in their smiles, and all Orks dressed like pirates. I think it's a little goofy, but I think the kit will still sell like crazy; the 2nd ed Blood Angels throwback mini sold thousands at Games Day last year.
MWHistorian wrote: Okay, I laughed out loud when I saw that Khorne demon engine. That thing is just goofy looking. It's hard to make that concept look good. It's a big guy stuck on tank tranks. It doesn't have the feel that Chaos should have (being cool looking) and doesn't fit in with the fluff. Wouldn't they have knights and titans of different sizes? Why make up something that just looks stupid? I realize that it's old school epic, but some ideas should be left to die, and this was one of them.
My plan is to see if I can use the tanks on back as the lower part of "legs" from the body portion and use the tracks as part of a kitbash siege engine.
Was I smoking crack when every single 6th edition codex had all its info leaked well before publication then?
Apparently, because it didn't happen. The best we got was reverse-engineering some rules and stats from WD battle reports a few days before preorders went up.
Compare this to seeing a full scan of each codex a month in advance, which was the norm 5-6 years ago.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Not a turret. A canopy in the nose where the tuning fork is on the Razorwing. Still waiting for it to come out, the concept art was lovely.
Guess I missed that, and a quick google doesn't give any results. Is there anywhere this concept is online or did someone just glance it in Jes' sketchbook?
brassangel wrote: . I think it's a little goofy, but I think the kit will still sell like crazy; the 2nd ed Blood Angels throwback mini sold thousands at Games Day last year.
That's not exactly what I heard... I heard they sold really quite poorly compared to the number of tickets being sold. And that they sold so badly that buy the end of the day, individual people were being invited to purchase trays of them to sell on ebay...
brassangel wrote: . I think it's a little goofy, but I think the kit will still sell like crazy; the 2nd ed Blood Angels throwback mini sold thousands at Games Day last year.
That's not exactly what I heard... I heard they sold really quite poorly compared to the number of tickets being sold. And that they sold so badly that buy the end of the day, individual people were being invited to purchase trays of them to sell on ebay...
MajorWesJanson wrote: Not a turret. A canopy in the nose where the tuning fork is on the Razorwing. Still waiting for it to come out, the concept art was lovely.
Guess I missed that, and a quick google doesn't give any results. Is there anywhere this concept is online or did someone just glance it in Jes' sketchbook?
No pics online. I asked Jes, but he said no pictures, as that was about the point where 3rd parties were popping up all over in poland, and Jes was annoyed at them using designs and concepts he had worked on. So I didn't get pictures of the sketches. I did spend about a half hour discussing sprue design and how the thing would be split up onto a sprue. Lhamean and Sslyth sketches were near identical to the models once they were actually released.
This conversion is probably the closest to what the sketch looked like, but the wings had slightly more area, and there was a canopy with a bombadier in the nose, where the tuning fork is.
Ah, thanks Wes! I wish I had the opportunity to look through Jes' sketches and pick his mind.
But I must say, that conversion actually reinforces the point that the badly photoshopped Crimson Hunter could 'just' be another sighting of the Void Raven. Double cockpit, 4 engines, sickle wings - the only prominent feature that's missing would be the forked nose. At least it makes more sense for the Void Raven to be released than a 3rd Eldar flyer shortly after their new codex.
Was I smoking crack when every single 6th edition codex had all its info leaked well before publication then?
Apparently, because it didn't happen. The best we got was reverse-engineering some rules and stats from WD battle reports a few days before preorders went up.
Compare this to seeing a full scan of each codex a month in advance, which was the norm 5-6 years ago.
Yes it did. We knew about most of the details in the Eldar, Tau, Chaos and Dark Angel codexes weeks before they were released.
Was I smoking crack when every single 6th edition codex had all its info leaked well before publication then?
Apparently, because it didn't happen. The best we got was reverse-engineering some rules and stats from WD battle reports a few days before preorders went up.
Compare this to seeing a full scan of each codex a month in advance, which was the norm 5-6 years ago.
Yes it did. We knew about most of the details in the Eldar, Tau, Chaos and Dark Angel codexes weeks before they were released.
To somewhat echo blackfang here, the details might have all been out there, but that was more a function of how much nonsense was thrown at the wall that eventually every reasonable possibility was covered. The signal:noise ratio on codexes was/is horrifically bad until about a week before the codex is released, and even then the discussion can be filled with garbage until the codex is actually in people's hands.
That said, you're probably not seeing that much in the way of rumors because it's not a codex where you can extrapolate likely courses of action from previous editions and other products. As a rules expansion, there's too many things they can do which makes "rumormongers" scared to make predictions, leaving you with people who actually have sources. Since those sources are exceedingly rare due to GW's internal security policies, you get the situation we have with this.
Was I smoking crack when every single 6th edition codex had all its info leaked well before publication then?
Apparently, because it didn't happen. The best we got was reverse-engineering some rules and stats from WD battle reports a few days before preorders went up.
Compare this to seeing a full scan of each codex a month in advance, which was the norm 5-6 years ago.
Yes it did. We knew about most of the details in the Eldar, Tau, Chaos and Dark Angel codexes weeks before they were released.
No, we knew a lot of information, some of which was right, some wrong, and some hilariously wrong.
Compared to getting actuasl SCANNED CODEXES just a year or so ago they have completely tightened their leak mill. Hell, this is the earliest we have a pictuer of WD for a long time.
Best_Pone over at Warseer wrote:Has anyone mentioned the company masters yet? Marine players are getting some more of the company masters. I believe they're the masters of the reserve companies.
Doesn't quite seem like scraping of the barrel to me. Total lack of originality, sure. "Sell the finecast as a set in shops. Despite people only needing 1 in normal games, if it's the exact loadout they want. We don't actually need to do anything except make a new box."
In other words, typical Apocalypse planning from GW. Plus, most people haven't heard of them so if they put them in an actual box, people will think they're new.
UltraPrime wrote: Or that's not all Marines are getting. But don't let logic spoil your argument.
Can you show me where I state that is all they will get? Or even confirm that they are indeed getting the rumoured product? You will notice I started my statement of opinion with "if". If that is all they get for the release would you be pleased with that level of "creativity"?
UltraPrime wrote: Or that's not all Marines are getting. But don't let logic spoil your argument.
Can you show me where I state that is all they will get? Or even confirm that they are indeed getting the rumoured product? You will notice I started my statement of opinion with "if". If that is all they get for the release would you be pleased with that level of "creativity"?
I heard they are getting a new handle for their boltpistols.... It has a small skull as the trigger.
Best_Pone over at Warseer wrote:Has anyone mentioned the company masters yet? Marine players are getting some more of the company masters. I believe they're the masters of the reserve companies.
Can't wait.
Next time, at ApoC III , we get the Masters of companies 10....... - 12..... right?
The original company masters had the 10th Company Master. I mean, they're kinda scraping the barrel if they're trying to find roles for the others.
What have we got so far:
Master of the Watch (2nd Company) Master of the Arsenal (3rd Company) Master of the Fleet (4th Company) Master of Recruits (10th Company)
What remains:
Master of the Marches (5th Company). How does that translate into game play? The master of the borders?
Master of the Rites (6th Company). How does that translate into game play?
Chief Victualler (7th Company)? So... the guy in charge of the food. How would that work in-game?
And the 8th and 9th Company don't even have listed titles. Then again maybe when they're including Masters of the Chapter they'll include the other group masters, like the Master of the Forge and the Master of the Apothecarion. I'd like minis for those.
Logistical officers are important in any army. The Chief Victualler is crucial to understanding the role of the reserve companies in a prolonged campaign setting.
Redbeard wrote: Logistical officers are important in any army. The Chief Victualler is crucial to understanding the role of the reserve companies in a prolonged campaign setting.
How could you represent that in table-top? Bonus to reserve rolls or something?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Master of the Rites (6th Company). How does that translate into game play?
Chief Victualler (7th Company)? So... the guy in charge of the food. How would that work in-game?
And the 8th and 9th Company don't even have listed titles. Then again maybe when they're including Masters of the Chapter they'll include the other group masters, like the Master of the Forge and the Master of the Apothecarion. I'd like minis for those.
The 6th Blesses the Meal and the 7th gives the bonus "Well Fed" allowing you to nap through one of the enemies turns suffering no ill effects.
Depends on the Codex.
For BA:
3rd is Master of Sacrifice - ? inflict wound on self for +1 to Emo for remainder of game
7th is Marches and 5th is Arsenal
8th is Master of Skyfall - So either something Assault Squad related or he streams James Bond movies in battle
9th is Master of Sieges
Their "Master of the Fleet" (a.k.a. Keeper of the Heavengate) also resides above the 10 company Masters.
Chief apothecary with a royal court like unit of apothecaries that could be spread amongst other units would be a lot more useful than having the Swedish chef in power armour running around the place.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I don't think he really knows what trolling is.
You're right, I meant spamming. Spam is, presumably, still against the rules.
It's not spamming either; they are expressing their negative opinions of GW's design choices through humor. If you don't share that opinion you might not find it funny, but that doesn't change what it is (much like their humor doesn't change GW designs).
People are allowed to do it because it's discussion. People do it more in GW threads than other companies because GW has done much to anger the market. Still, as an example H.B.M.C came to the DeadZone thread to pronounce the early marauders were terrible and that was more or less it in that particular post. Was he trolling? Was he spamming? No, he was offering his viewpoint as a consumer on a product being offered for sale. That it happened to be negative is the fault of the company more (they made it, after all), and after enough people made similar observations adjustments were made that placated some of those with complaints.
Even appeasing "some" is more than GW attempts to do, which in large part goes back to "why are there so many in GW threads?"
Redbeard wrote: Logistical officers are important in any army. The Chief Victualler is crucial to understanding the role of the reserve companies in a prolonged campaign setting.
Yes but as far as in-game benefits? Stratagems perhaps, but the ones that would have the largest immediate effect are kinda already covered.
H.B.M.C. wrote: The original company masters had the 10th Company Master. I mean, they're kinda scraping the barrel if they're trying to find roles for the others.
What have we got so far:
Master of the Watch (2nd Company)
Master of the Arsenal (3rd Company)
Master of the Fleet (4th Company)
Master of Recruits (10th Company)
What remains:
Master of the Marches (5th Company). How does that translate into game play? The master of the borders?
Master of the Rites (6th Company). How does that translate into game play?
Chief Victualler (7th Company)? So... the guy in charge of the food. How would that work in-game?
And the 8th and 9th Company don't even have listed titles. Then again maybe when they're including Masters of the Chapter they'll include the other group masters, like the Master of the Forge and the Master of the Apothecarion. I'd like minis for those.
Marches sounds like a mobility boost- outflank/scout of some sort.
Rites could tie into banners and relics easily.
Chief Victualler could easily be something like a feel no pain save duo to his amazing cooking skills... Or something along the lines of "combat drugs" in the dinner rolls.
Redbeard wrote: Logistical officers are important in any army. The Chief Victualler is crucial to understanding the role of the reserve companies in a prolonged campaign setting.
Yup.
It's important to remember that the term "victualler" referred to an individual who was in charge of supplying not just food but also medicine, beverages, and other provisions that a ship would need on a lengthy journey.
I could see something like the Chief Victualler allowing for the effects of Combat Drugs.
The Chief Victualler, to use the old apocalypse rules, could do something similar to Careful Planning (getting reserves early), or Replacements (redeploy a unit that was destroyed).
I'm really looking forward to the new Apoc rules. We just had an apoc games yesterday, 12k per side.
Chief apothecary with a royal court like unit of apothecaries that could be spread amongst other units would be a lot more useful than having the Swedish chef in power armour running around the place.
But if you had the Swedish Chef, your enemy would be borked!
I'm wondering if they'll update previous formations. It would be a shame if suddenly most of the formations I use become non existent. My titanhammer formation would cry as well as my Spirit Host.
CaptKaruthors wrote: I'm wondering if they'll update previous formations. It would be a shame if suddenly most of the formations I use become non existent. My titanhammer formation would cry as well as my Spirit Host.
I'll see your see your spirit host and raise you a wild rider host and a cloud strike squadron We could always do some Eldar vs... The new codex has me energized so I'm finishing up my bikes
On the topic of company masters, I remember from that huge list of stuff from last year that quite a few CHAPTER masters were listed. Tu'shan of the Salamanders was one that I remember.
And for anyone who doesn't remember, a list of "future products" was released last year, and the rumor was that all of the products on it were to be released more than a year away.
baritowned wrote: On the topic of company masters, I remember from that huge list of stuff from last year that quite a few CHAPTER masters were listed. Tu'shan of the Salamanders was one that I remember.
And for anyone who doesn't remember, a list of "future products" was released last year, and the rumor was that all of the products on it were to be released more than a year away.
Redbeard wrote: Logistical officers are important in any army. The Chief Victualler is crucial to understanding the role of the reserve companies in a prolonged campaign setting.
How could you represent that in table-top? Bonus to reserve rolls or something?
10% store discount on Cool Ranch Doritos for Ultramarine players (Regular doritios for Blood Angels) in games of 3,000pts+ if they bought the chapter masters at that store?
kronk wrote: I've seen both Friday and Saturday. I pre-ordered the Chaos Daemons book on a Friday evening.
Ah, yes, I guess for you folks on the left side of the big pond it would still be a Friday due to the timezone difference. They usually go up at midnight GMT I believe.
baritowned wrote: On the topic of company masters, I remember from that huge list of stuff from last year that quite a few CHAPTER masters were listed. Tu'shan of the Salamanders was one that I remember.
And for anyone who doesn't remember, a list of "future products" was released last year, and the rumor was that all of the products on it were to be released more than a year away.
kronk wrote: I've seen both Friday and Saturday. I pre-ordered the Chaos Daemons book on a Friday evening.
Ah, yes, I guess for you folks on the left side of the big pond it would still be a Friday due to the timezone difference. They usually go up at midnight GMT I believe.
*looks at Redemption's Flag*
Ah. Now we're on the same page, even if we're not on the same side of the pond.
via Old-Four-Arms on Warseer
on the GW site in the description of the Imperial Bunker :
"The Imperial Bunker can be combined with the Wall of Martyrs scenery range including the Imperial Defence Line, Aquila Strongpoint, Firestorm Redoubt, Vengeance Weapon Battery, and the Imperial Defence Emplacement. The only limit to how big your Wall of Martyrs set can be is your imagination (and probably the size of your gaming table)."
Aquila Strongpoint, Firestorm Redoubt and Vengeance Weapon Battery could be the 3 new apoc terrain pieces...
Indy modelling types, GW refuses to provide my Orks, Dark Eldar and Tyranids with terrain, do you want my money instead? Simply take a look over the terrain types listed in the 40k rulebook, build a reasonably priced equivalent and I'll buy them from you.
GW can make ork terrain easy as pie.
All they have to do is repackage plastruct, I- beams and diamond tread plate styrene,mark it up fourfold and viola
The new Ork line
Indy modelling types, GW refuses to provide my Orks, Dark Eldar and Tyranids with terrain, do you want my money instead? Simply take a look over the terrain types listed in the 40k rulebook, build a reasonably priced equivalent and I'll buy them from you.
I like your opinions on things and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Indy modelling types, GW refuses to provide my Orks, Dark Eldar and Tyranids with terrain, do you want my money instead? Simply take a look over the terrain types listed in the 40k rulebook, build a reasonably priced equivalent and I'll buy them from you.
This is why I bought my eldar adl from ebay. If GW had made one, I'dve bought it.
Why are people complaining about more Imperial terrain? Pretty much everyone has at least one Imperial army, and chances are it'll look good. Yeah, I'd love to see a range of Ork or Eldar terrain, but the returns aren't going to be as good and not everyone will buy them. Imperial terrain is just the safest bet, and even then you don't have to buy it.
Brother SRM wrote: Why are people complaining about more Imperial terrain? Pretty much everyone has at least one Imperial army, and chances are it'll look good. Yeah, I'd love to see a range of Ork or Eldar terrain, but the returns aren't going to be as good and not everyone will buy them. Imperial terrain is just the safest bet, and even then you don't have to buy it.
I have 3 armies, none are imperium armies, there are already several imperium buildings, there are no options for other armies. This release sees a slew of new imperium buildings and no new buildings (any buildings) for any of my 3 armies or any of the other armies.
And you cannot see why I might grumble?
I'm not grumbling too much though, as I pointed out, I'll just not make a purchase.
Brother SRM wrote: Why are people complaining about more Imperial terrain? Pretty much everyone has at least one Imperial army,
I don't, and I probably never will. As far as I'm concerned, Imperials are the least interesting part of the GW mythos.
That's not to bash on Imperial stuff. Some people like them. I find them to be a bunch of grimdark rubbish and would even rather collect poncey Eldar than Imperials. Different strokes for different folks. The point is, GW sells miniatures with a bunch of different aesthetics. It's lazy of them to only sell terrain with one aesthetic. It's just yet another example of how they just don't support all of their armies sufficiently.
it's interesting that the web guy, yet again, let slip some new stuff, this time by editing already existing product descriptions a week and a half early.
Manchu wrote: Wait, are you implying this new Apoc is just ... a WD article?
God no, I hope not! Apocalypse getting the Sisters treatment, really would be the end of all things.
What I meant was, (and as I type this, I know realise how daft this sounds) is this going to just be a promotional edition, with models released at a later date? Or can we expect some new shineys, and rules within a week or two of the White Dwarf dropping.
shade1313 wrote: Interesting note. Baneblades and Shadowswords both seem to be No Longer Available on their respective order pages, in multiple countries.
I can confirm this for the US site. I just checked.
shade1313 wrote: Interesting note. Baneblades and Shadowswords both seem to be No Longer Available on their respective order pages, in multiple countries.
I can confirm this for the US site. I just checked.
Looks like I will be making a panic buy tomorrow.
I strongly doubt they're out for the count. My guess is that they're taking existing stock and holding them for the big splash release, and perhaps bundling them up in groups of three.
At least, I sure hope so. I need more Stormlords for my DKoK.
shade1313 wrote: Interesting note. Baneblades and Shadowswords both seem to be No Longer Available on their respective order pages, in multiple countries.
I can confirm this for the US site. I just checked.
Looks like I will be making a panic buy tomorrow.
I strongly doubt they're out for the count. My guess is that they're taking existing stock and holding them for the big splash release, and perhaps bundling them up in groups of three.
At least, I sure hope so. I need more Stormlords for my DKoK.
I am not worried about them going away lol
MGS is right on the money. With GW mecha-creatures coming in at $85 THERE IS NO FETHING WAY that the current super heavy kits will stay at their price points.
Baneblade/Shadowsword/Banesword/Stormblade/Shadowbane/Stormtuber/purple dishwasher kits will likely just be repackaged and priced at $125.
Wilytank wrote:
Manchu wrote: Wait, are you implying this new Apoc is just ... a WD article?
Ten dollars as opposed to sixty? Actually, that wouldn't be that bad.
This is a strangely intelligent point. People will cry for a full, hardback treatment and massive amounts of pages, but then complain about the price. If they gave us all the rules in White Dwarf for $10, people would complain that it's not a full book.
Not only would the next issue of the magazine be made relevant, but it would save the customers a boatload of money otherwise spent on a book.
brassangel wrote: This is a strangely intelligent point. People will cry for a full, hardback treatment and massive amounts of pages, but then complain about the price. If they gave us all the rules in White Dwarf for $10, people would complain that it's not a full book.
Not only would the next issue of the magazine be made relevant, but it would save the customers a boatload of money otherwise spent on a book.
Could the other route to less complaining be a cheaper book? Just a thought...
This is a strangely intelligent point. People will cry for a full, hardback treatment and massive amounts of pages, but then complain about the price. If they gave us all the rules in White Dwarf for $10, people would complain that it's not a full book.
Not only would the next issue of the magazine be made relevant, but it would save the customers a boatload of money otherwise spent on a book.
I'm pretty sure I never, EVER cried out for a full hardback treatment.
in fact I remember saying that $50 codexes would be the end for me, and so far they have been.
@#%%, I regret buying the HC rules.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kroothawk wrote: Short summary of Aegis Defense Line alternatives:
This is a great post, if you haven't already it should be it's own thread.
IMO none of these other companies ADLs look very good.
Very substandard ... actually most of it is just terrible.
It's quite shameful how much festering spite is shown here on dakka towards the company that makes our favourite game.
If GW released any of these kits these boards would fall over laughing/mocking at how terrible they are.
But instead the praise you lot offer this crap just shows how jaded dakka has been allowed to get.
Panic wrote: It's quite shameful how much festering spite is shown here on dakka towards the company that makes our favourite game.
That would be because the spiteful people don't enjoy 40k anymore (thus it's no longer their favorite game) or just don't like GW themselves (and thus their attacks are not really at 40k, but GW's treatment of it).
Hm. Pull the models so you can stock up for a big release, but leave the books for sale because, hey, might as well sell what you can before they're replaced? That sounds pretty plausible.
Kroothawk wrote: Short summary of Aegis Defense Line alternatives:
This is a great post, if you haven't already it should be it's own thread.
It should be an article.
While I'd love it to be a WD article(or even WD special issue!) for the price, it'd be a bit thin on content that way, plus we'd have the "Sisters Syndrome" with it.
Panic wrote: yeah,
I'm looking forward to the new GW terrain.
IMO none of these other companies ADLs look very good.
Very substandard ... actually most of it is just terrible.
It's quite shameful how much festering spite is shown here on dakka towards the company that makes our favourite game.
If GW released any of these kits these boards would fall over laughing/mocking at how terrible they are.
But instead the praise you lot offer this crap just shows how jaded dakka has been allowed to get.
Panic...
It's pretty common on here. People will praise Chapterhouse to the skies (I bought their 'Tervigon" conversion, it's awful) and describe GW as crooks, when Chapterhouse are essentially producing derivative products and in many cases charging more for them!. And that's fair enough, but often the GW-haters simply can't endure anyone disagreeing with them.
Personally I buy all my GW from discount stores, so I'm not paying the dreadful prices they have to endure in Oz, but really, a lot of the time GW stuff is better value than their imitators. It's great to have the small guys, I've bought from Paulson too, but to present them as saints and GW as sinners is ludicrously simplistic, binary thinking.
Panic wrote: yeah,
I'm looking forward to the new GW terrain.
IMO none of these other companies ADLs look very good.
Very substandard ... actually most of it is just terrible.
It's quite shameful how much festering spite is shown here on dakka towards the company that makes our favourite game.
If GW released any of these kits these boards would fall over laughing/mocking at how terrible they are.
But instead the praise you lot offer this crap just shows how jaded dakka has been allowed to get.
Panic...
It's pretty common on here. People will praise Chapterhouse to the skies (I bought their 'Tervigon" conversion, it's awful) and describe GW as crooks, when Chapterhouse are essentially producing derivative products and in many cases charging more for them!. And that's fair enough, but often the GW-haters simply can't endure anyone disagreeing with them.
Personally I buy all my GW from discount stores, so I'm not paying the dreadful prices they have to endure in Oz, but really, a lot of the time GW stuff is better value than their imitators. It's great to have the small guys, I've bought from Paulson too, but to present them as saints and GW as sinners is ludicrously simplistic, binary thinking.
It's pretty common on here. People will praise Chapterhouse to the skies (I bought their 'Tervigon" conversion, it's awful) and describe GW as crooks, when Chapterhouse are essentially producing derivative products and in many cases charging more for them!. And that's fair enough, but often the GW-haters simply can't endure anyone disagreeing with them.
Personally I buy all my GW from discount stores, so I'm not paying the dreadful prices they have to endure in Oz, but really, a lot of the time GW stuff is better value than their imitators. It's great to have the small guys, I've bought from Paulson too, but to present them as saints and GW as sinners is ludicrously simplistic, binary thinking.
Finally, something I can agree with. To be clear though, that sentence is also true if you swap saints and sinners.
Panic wrote: yeah,
I'm looking forward to the new GW terrain.
IMO none of these other companies ADLs look very good.
Very substandard ... actually most of it is just terrible.
It's quite shameful how much festering spite is shown here on dakka towards the company that makes our favourite game.
If GW released any of these kits these boards would fall over laughing/mocking at how terrible they are.
But instead the praise you lot offer this crap just shows how jaded dakka has been allowed to get.
Panic...
It's pretty common on here. People will praise Chapterhouse to the skies (I bought their 'Tervigon" conversion, it's awful) and describe GW as crooks, when Chapterhouse are essentially producing derivative products and in many cases charging more for them!. And that's fair enough, but often the GW-haters simply can't endure anyone disagreeing with them.
Personally I buy all my GW from discount stores, so I'm not paying the dreadful prices they have to endure in Oz, but really, a lot of the time GW stuff is better value than their imitators. It's great to have the small guys, I've bought from Paulson too, but to present them as saints and GW as sinners is ludicrously simplistic, binary thinking.
That's true to an extent.. although that shouldn't excuse GW of their other faults (of which there are many).
I think the problem is for many people who have been around for a while, they are so sick and tired of having a groin repeatedly thrust in their face by a fat man, smoking a cigar rolled with $100 notes (picture it!) that it begins to colour their opinion of everything that the company says or does. And in that sense, it will take some time of GW not doing anything 'evil' to get the veteran fans back on board. The 'crimes' of CHS pale in significance to the ridiculous price rises, the RoW embargo, Finecast, the axing of specialist games, the dirth of imagination and stagnation of GW circa 2013. When I look at the good ship GW, and the course it is taking, I don't see the minnow that is CHS as being responsible for many of the company's faults.
It's actually quite a remarkable accomplishment - GW had built up a tremendous amount of good will over the first 15-20 years of its existence; it's taken some pretty atrocious (perhaps callous is a better word) behaviour by them to erode that. Now the only people who find it acceptable are youngsters or rookies to wargaming who have never known any different (or expect such behaviour from the corporation, big-business orientated world), and people who don't care or choose to ignore it for whatever reason.
Panic wrote: yeah,
I'm looking forward to the new GW terrain.
IMO none of these other companies ADLs look very good.
Very substandard ... actually most of it is just terrible.
It's quite shameful how much festering spite is shown here on dakka towards the company that makes our favourite game.
If GW released any of these kits these boards would fall over laughing/mocking at how terrible they are.
But instead the praise you lot offer this crap just shows how jaded dakka has been allowed to get.
Panic...
It's pretty common on here. People will praise Chapterhouse to the skies (I bought their 'Tervigon" conversion, it's awful) and describe GW as crooks, when Chapterhouse are essentially producing derivative products and in many cases charging more for them!. And that's fair enough, but often the GW-haters simply can't endure anyone disagreeing with them.
Personally I buy all my GW from discount stores, so I'm not paying the dreadful prices they have to endure in Oz, but really, a lot of the time GW stuff is better value than their imitators. It's great to have the small guys, I've bought from Paulson too, but to present them as saints and GW as sinners is ludicrously simplistic, binary thinking.
That's true to an extent.. although that shouldn't excuse GW of their other faults (of which there are many).
I think the problem is for many people who have been around for a while, they are so sick and tired of having a groin repeatedly thrust in their face by a fat man, smoking a cigar rolled with $100 notes (picture it!) that it begins to colour their opinion of everything that the company says or does. And in that sense, it will take some time of GW not doing anything 'evil' to get the veteran fans back on board. The 'crimes' of CHS pale in significance to the ridiculous price rises, the RoW embargo, Finecast, the axing of specialist games, the dirth of imagination and stagnation of GW circa 2013. When I look at the good ship GW, and the course it is taking, I don't see the minnow that is CHS as being responsible for many of the company's faults.
It's actually quite a remarkable accomplishment - GW had built up a tremendous amount of good will over the first 15-20 years of its existence; it's taken some pretty atrocious (perhaps callous is a better word) behaviour by them to erode that. Now the only people who find it acceptable are youngsters or rookies to wargaming who have never known any different (or expect such behaviour from the corporation, big-business orientated world), and people who don't care or choose to ignore it for whatever reason.
Or perhaps people are so used to the "old times" when GW essentially dominated the market and could afford the luxury of not making as much money and focusing on the hobby bit. I don't know, honestly, but it seems like there's so much unnecessary competition out there that GW has to vie for in order to hold shareholder interest. When I heard podcasts like The Independent Characters who have actually met the GWdev dudes, it always reminds me that the guys on the ground over there are probably just like us. How far do we want to go to villianize the devs ("omg this guy wrote such a bad BRB", etc.) when they clearly have internal issues what with core sculptors starting to leave and all? Is this the right attitude to take? We criticize and complain about the people working there, and when they leave the company, it becomes a "sniff sniff sad sad" moment instead. I'm pretty sure that more than half of the things we blame the devs for are can probably be attributed to those fat men in suits smoking hunnid-dollah bill cigars above the devs.
Panic wrote: It's quite shameful how much festering spite is shown here on dakka towards the company that makes our favourite game.
If GW released any of these kits these boards would fall over laughing/mocking at how terrible they are.
But instead the praise you lot offer this crap just shows how jaded dakka has been allowed to get.
Panic...
Your bias is showing here.
Actually, I criticized one of those alternative ADLs straight to the sculptor's face when he first posted them to Dakka. So there goes that little theory of yours. I suspect the praise "we lot" are offering to these kits is that even for as amateurish as they are, at least they exist. For people who actually play GW's over-priced game (I don't), these kits fill a huge gap in the line because of GW's refusal to provide gaming pieces to each army they produce. And if you actually play the game, a mediocre model is vastly better than either no model at all, or trying to invent increasingly thin reasons to justify putting Imperial-themed terrain in non-Imperial armies.
But I think the more troubling part of your post is the bit about "how jaded dakka has been allowed to get". First of all, "allowed"? We have to have opinions about GW that are "allowed" by someone now, do we? Secondly, if we are jaded, it is because of the way GW has treated us after spending thousands of dollars on their products. You may like GW, and that's just dandy. But the moment you try and start silencing people just because they don't agree with your opinion of the company, that's when we will have a problem. Let's leave the brand-loyalty wars to the console gamers, shall we?
My epic moment: Charging a Warhound titan with a Sternguard sergeant holding a meltabomb, said sergeant dying from the stomp attack but landing his melta bomb. After the penetrating hit, I rolled 6, 6, 6 (we use the old Super Heavy damage table) to strip the 3 structure points and just missed getting the apocalyptic explosion result.
It was a good game.
That said, there are a lot of gaps between the 4th edition Apocalypse rules and subsequent 5th edition Apocalypse supplements and 6th edition. I'm looking forward to the changes.
We've had to house rule things like the Replacements Strategic Asset so that you can't get a super heavy back and things like that.
I've enjoyed apocalypse level games but I've never been a fan of formations and by all accounts they will sill be a large part of the new apoc ruleset. Kind of a downer. At the end of the day we cam just not play with them so it's not the end of the world. I do really hope they take it a bit more seriously with the strategic assets, flank march was always a race to the bottom.
They roughly valued assets at 250pts ish ,but that never sat well with me because they ranged so drastically in the effects they had on gameplay and balance. My concern though is like with psychic powers in the brb, it will remain a copout and rather than assign a point cost to assets they'll either keep it the same as the original apoc ruleset or god forbid force randomization on everyon.
I just played what will likely be the last Apoc game of this edition. 30k points on the table, and my moment of glory; killing a stompa with a shaken Hunter-Killer missile.
What's a pointless 10 point upgrade now?
So long as the re-release remains chaotic and amusing, all will be well. Granted, I'm not looking forwards to that stupid khornedozer on the table, but I have enough Vanquishers to remove it from said table rapidly, regardless of its stats.
One thing, however, that I hope they remove is Flank March and Replacements; they kind of invalidate every other asset in the game.
MajorStoffer wrote: One thing, however, that I hope they remove is Flank March and Replacements; they kind of invalidate every other asset in the game.
lol you mean you'd take flank march or replacements instead of anti plant barrage? You sir are crazy! :p
I don't mind the concept of replacements but there should be a lot of restrictions. It kinda goes back to the issue of them valuing an asset at roughly 250pts. A 250pts asset shouldn't be able to make a 500pt unit come back from the dead.
Flank march just shouldn't exist as an army wide benefit. If it allowed you to select a single non-super heavy or gargantuan creature and allow that one unit to come in on any board edge that'd be ok.
If news and rumour threads were solely the news and rumours themselves, they'd be very short indeed: instead the bulk of the threads is the discussion of these rumours, like the bulk of this thread.
Panic wrote: yeah,
I'm looking forward to the new GW terrain.
IMO none of these other companies ADLs look very good.
Very substandard ... actually most of it is just terrible.
It's quite shameful how much festering spite is shown here on dakka towards the company that makes our favourite game.
If GW released any of these kits these boards would fall over laughing/mocking at how terrible they are.
But instead the praise you lot offer this crap just shows how jaded dakka has been allowed to get.
Panic...
It's pretty common on here. People will praise Chapterhouse to the skies (I bought their 'Tervigon" conversion, it's awful) and describe GW as crooks, when Chapterhouse are essentially producing derivative products and in many cases charging more for them!. And that's fair enough, but often the GW-haters simply can't endure anyone disagreeing with them.
Personally I buy all my GW from discount stores, so I'm not paying the dreadful prices they have to endure in Oz, but really, a lot of the time GW stuff is better value than their imitators. It's great to have the small guys, I've bought from Paulson too, but to present them as saints and GW as sinners is ludicrously simplistic, binary thinking.
Best posts on the boards in a long time. Smartest, for sure.
Pacific wrote:
That's true to an extent.. although that shouldn't excuse GW of their other faults (of which there are many).
I think the problem is for many people who have been around for a while, they are so sick and tired of having a groin repeatedly thrust in their face by a fat man, smoking a cigar rolled with $100 notes (picture it!) that it begins to colour their opinion of everything that the company says or does. And in that sense, it will take some time of GW not doing anything 'evil' to get the veteran fans back on board. The 'crimes' of CHS pale in significance to the ridiculous price rises, the RoW embargo, Finecast, the axing of specialist games, the dirth of imagination and stagnation of GW circa 2013. When I look at the good ship GW, and the course it is taking, I don't see the minnow that is CHS as being responsible for many of the company's faults.
It's actually quite a remarkable accomplishment - GW had built up a tremendous amount of good will over the first 15-20 years of its existence; it's taken some pretty atrocious (perhaps callous is a better word) behaviour by them to erode that. Now the only people who find it acceptable are youngsters or rookies to wargaming who have never known any different (or expect such behaviour from the corporation, big-business orientated world), and people who don't care or choose to ignore it for whatever reason.
I've been in the game for 17 years, so it's not youngsters or rookies alone. Also, the government establishments are far worse than any corporation right now, because they strip away our living rights. (The worst case is when they are in it together.)
At any rate, you cite mostly personal opinions or grudges as "offenses" without facts, and then belittle someone else taking the opposite view. Furthermore, every miniatures game (with miniatures that don't suck) is tremendously overpriced.
JOHIRA wrote:
Panic wrote: It's quite shameful how much festering spite is shown here on dakka towards the company that makes our favourite game.
If GW released any of these kits these boards would fall over laughing/mocking at how terrible they are.
But instead the praise you lot offer this crap just shows how jaded dakka has been allowed to get.
Panic...
Your bias is showing here.
Actually, I criticized one of those alternative ADLs straight to the sculptor's face when he first posted them to Dakka. So there goes that little theory of yours. I suspect the praise "we lot" are offering to these kits is that even for as amateurish as they are, at least they exist. For people who actually play GW's over-priced game (I don't), these kits fill a huge gap in the line because of GW's refusal to provide gaming pieces to each army they produce. And if you actually play the game, a mediocre model is vastly better than either no model at all, or trying to invent increasingly thin reasons to justify putting Imperial-themed terrain in non-Imperial armies.
But I think the more troubling part of your post is the bit about "how jaded dakka has been allowed to get". First of all, "allowed"? We have to have opinions about GW that are "allowed" by someone now, do we? Secondly, if we are jaded, it is because of the way GW has treated us after spending thousands of dollars on their products. You may like GW, and that's just dandy. But the moment you try and start silencing people just because they don't agree with your opinion of the company, that's when we will have a problem. Let's leave the brand-loyalty wars to the console gamers, shall we?
How many kits don't exist among the 6th edition codices? Seriously, each 6th edition book has been released with the idea in mind that models aren't left unrepresented because of companies like CH that can't produce any of their own original content. And I'd rather have no model than a crappy looking one.
You also have it ass-backwards. Right now, hating GW is the Democrat party, and the forums are the media. Hating is the establishment, and the forums report only in support of that view while squashing, flaming, and all but destroying anything that dares present an opposing (and often fact-based) view.
More people hate GW for things that don't even impact them, or because it's easier to go with the flow, than those who dare speak out in their defense. The true sign of the uneducated are those that believe a guy who has money is automatically evil, and that's grounds for an argument in their minds.
If you don't want to pay for their stuff, don't; but don't pretend the 3rd party knockoffs are anywhere CLOSE to what GW produces, or as "valuable" (when they often cost the same or more for garbage). Don't pretend that other comparable games, with great models, are any cheaper on a kit-by-kit basis. Privateer Press is the closest, and their models are way more expensive individually, and they actually have LOST ground to GW the last 15 months. If GW was ripping people off, acting criminally, etc., they wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Wanting to make money as a business isn't criminal. Producing stuff costs money. Distributing to as wide an audience as GW has is expensive. Releasing new codices every other month is expensive. It's a hobby; a freaking niche hobby at that. GW isn't stealing from anyone, people are voluntarily giving them their money. They don't have to play or buy, but they do.
Panic wrote: yeah,
I'm looking forward to the new GW terrain.
IMO none of these other companies ADLs look very good.
Very substandard ... actually most of it is just terrible.
It's quite shameful how much festering spite is shown here on dakka towards the company that makes our favourite game.
If GW released any of these kits these boards would fall over laughing/mocking at how terrible they are.
But instead the praise you lot offer this crap just shows how jaded dakka has been allowed to get.
Panic...
It's pretty common on here. People will praise Chapterhouse to the skies (I bought their 'Tervigon" conversion, it's awful) and describe GW as crooks, when Chapterhouse are essentially producing derivative products and in many cases charging more for them!. And that's fair enough, but often the GW-haters simply can't endure anyone disagreeing with them.
Personally I buy all my GW from discount stores, so I'm not paying the dreadful prices they have to endure in Oz, but really, a lot of the time GW stuff is better value than their imitators. It's great to have the small guys, I've bought from Paulson too, but to present them as saints and GW as sinners is ludicrously simplistic, binary thinking.
Best posts on the boards in a long time. Smartest, for sure.
Really? In the main I found it tedious and hackneyed with a hint of straw man. I have to agree about the quality of the CH product though, never been tempted myself.
brassangel wrote: but don't pretend the 3rd party knockoffs are anywhere CLOSE to what GW produces,
I guess you haven't seen anything from Kromlech or Anvil Industries, or MaxMini?
There are more than a handful of companies making better sculpts than GW. Some are even cheaper, at worst they are about the same cost.
In fact, for the most part, I'd say the 3rd party companies I follow put out top shelf sculpts.
And everyone makes CHS out to be this evil entity. If GW produced a full range of products to support the games they make, CHS wouldn't exist. Furthermore, if the stuff CHS makes wasn't sought after by the community, CHS wouldn't exist. Did CHS take a few things too far, yeah, probably. They have been issued a judgement for those transgressions.
I give GW credit where I feel it's due. But that generally deals with a new good looking model. Their business practices are generally atrocious as are the prices.
There are 3rd party companies selling bad sculpts. There are also 3rd party companies selling fantastic sculpts.
Both 'sides' should stop making such broad generalizations.
MajorStoffer wrote: I just played what will likely be the last Apoc game of this edition. 30k points on the table, and my moment of glory; killing a stompa with a shaken Hunter-Killer missile.
What's a pointless 10 point upgrade now?
So long as the re-release remains chaotic and amusing, all will be well. Granted, I'm not looking forwards to that stupid khornedozer on the table, but I have enough Vanquishers to remove it from said table rapidly, regardless of its stats.
One thing, however, that I hope they remove is Flank March and Replacements; they kind of invalidate every other asset in the game.
The last time I played an Apoc game, there was a guy on the other side who was bringing The Green Tide Formation. And we knew, long before terrain was laid, that he'd be using Flank March.
Yeah, that would have been so much fun. 100 Orks in one mob, coming on from behind us and charging right away.
So, I made sure I took the Ambush Asset.
Nothing quite like letting him line up for his charge which would knock out ALL of our infantry shooting in one move, and then wiping 59 of them off the table before they even get to do anything.
You know, it's funny. I'm actually a big fan of the Skulldozer - and anything that brings back Epic units. But I haven't had a Chaos army since 2nd edition.
Then I remembered I have that Dark Vengeance set sitting there, plus 5 more Cultists I got for Christmas. A bit of fiddling with Battlescribe, and I've figures out a really cheap (for 40k) way to get it to 1500pts, and give me a reason to grab that Skulldozer.
Yep that teaser is for apocalypse, its says the dark and mad times because thats what apocalypse is, just pure madness. Also the planet going to should be a huge give away.
They had what 100K old tanks and other armoured vehicles and a million infantry at their highest point.
) sorry, couldn't resist.
ton of vehicles. 
