They still have a rule counting them as scoring whenever troops are scroing... is that necessary for the past few years? I know the original HH1 book was written iirc during 5th edition when only troops were scoring but doesn't FW's 30k still use the most recent edition of rulebooks for 40k where everyone (unless listed otherwise) is scoring?
Re: Robots
I do like the Iron Warriors robots. Are those on 50mm or 60mm bases? I wonder if someone can take a pic of the new bots next to some dreadnoughts (contemptor or vanilla) as well as the previous robots from FW.
@combat engineer legion rules are in but they've been out in other books for a while. New units included in spoilers (note might just be artwork but fairly sure that's not the case)
Spoiler:
I was under the impression that they were looking at updating some of the first release Legion ROW as well as units.
They still have a rule counting them as scoring whenever troops are scroing... is that necessary for the past few years? I know the original HH1 book was written iirc during 5th edition when only troops were scoring but doesn't FW's 30k still use the most recent edition of rulebooks for 40k where everyone (unless listed otherwise) is scoring?.
Becuse in 30k, only troops are scoring generally. With the odd exception...
It's fething beautiful man. A bit of a throwback to the old epic scale Knights. This beauty had better have AV 14 on the front and sides with all that armour!
But did they also drop a date on when the Crusade Imperialis book is going to drop? I'm going to keep repeating this question until I get an answer, my poor back wishes to know, as it would mean no longer having to lug along Conquest to every game!
Don't those have an awkward short range and the ability to cripple the vehicle using it?
That could be Vindicator Laser Destroyer if it opts to shoot at full potential.
At least Sicaran Venator doesn't have anything that says about messing itself up (though it's can be a bit more easy to blow up). But it DOES mess up anything that shoots blasts.
And the range... 36" is quite ok, imo. Atrapos has the same.
Goddamnit, I swore to myself I would stick to Strike Forces and small ZM armies and leave collecting a "proper size" Heresy army until Epic comes back...but dat Knight, dem Iron Circle
And the Macrocarid...I don't have the words, only the price could ever dissuade me from getting one. So yeah, I probably won't get one, but still, dayum.
Also, is the floating automata our first proper Dark Mechanicus unit? It's clearly supposed to be the progenitor of the Blight Drone, it'd be cool if it was forbidden tech built in the wake of the Death of Innocence.
Lastly, if anyone knows someone who bought the book, gonnae give them a prod so we can get Meduson & the Shattered Legions info.
zedmeister wrote: I've seen a few mentions on there were some cryptic hints towards Skitarii for 30k for tomorrow's seminar, but nothing confirmed...
Yep, on BattleBunnies Atia said;
End of the seminar for today. We will see more tomorrow (and we might even see some Skitarii)!
Please be Titanicus-style not just no-effort bitz addons for the plastics, please be Titanicus-style not just no-effort bitz addons for the plastics, please be Titanicus-style not just no-effort bitz addons for the plastics...
MeanGreenStompa wrote: My Dark Mechanicum! My beating heart! My poor poor wallet! That Macrocarid! That Porphyrion! That Protodrone!
And I was all set for Alphas as my allied astartes... but that Iron Warriors bot... gah! It's so sexy!
Why not have the best of both worlds?
Take Alpha Legion and use the Coils of the Hydra RoW
Then take the bots as your 'Rewards of Treason'
These guys would be scary if they were close to you first turn...
It's a great day to be a Death Guard player while also starting Shattered Legions with Iron Hands from BaC. Well, great for everything except my wallet.
m_r_parker on bolter and chainsword gave a quite breakdown of the 10 new rites of war.
m_r_parker wrote:
Without going into too much detail on the new generic rites (there are over 10)
Armoured Breakthrough: Predator squads are compulsory troops, Sicarians as Elites, no fortifications / immobile units / units without transports
Primarchs Chosen: Primarch is HQ and not LoW, Veterans and Terminators as Compulsory Troops.
Brethren of Iron: Castellax as non-compulsory troops, Vorax as fast attack and Domitar as Elites but requires a Forge Lord / Iron Father / Warsmith
Fury of the Ancients: Dreadnought and Contemptor Dreadnought Talons as Compulsory Troops, but are no longer Elites. Need a Forge Lord and Primus Medicae, and can't seine the initiative
Outcast Sons: meant for small detachments of traitor loyalists, very circumstantial, not great bonuses.
Sky Hunter Phallanx: Jetbikes as Troops, and can voluntarily leave the table to be placed into ongoing reserves. Infantry can only be on Jetbikes or transports with the flyer rule.
Orphans of Betrayl: like Outcast sons but for loyalist traitors
Drop Assault Vanguard: compulsory troops can only be assault squads, half of which must be enter through deep strike. Only take units that can deploy through Deep strike or embarked on a Flyer transport.
Legion Recon Company: recon squads are compulsory troops, all models deployed using scout or infiltrate also gain shrouded during first turn. No termite armour or heavy support choices.
Zone Mortalis Assault Force: terminators as non compulsory troops, breacher squads with all models in base contact get bonuses to Invulnerable save
Sacrificial Offering: all models gain outflank and must begin in reserve from the primary detachment. An allied detachment must be taken, has stubborn whilst in own deployment zone, and have no VP if destroyed. Traitor only (duh)
MeanGreenStompa wrote: My Dark Mechanicum! My beating heart! My poor poor wallet! That Macrocarid! That Porphyrion! That Protodrone!
And I was all set for Alphas as my allied astartes... but that Iron Warriors bot... gah! It's so sexy!
Why not have the best of both worlds?
Take Alpha Legion and use the Coils of the Hydra RoW
Then take the bots as your 'Rewards of Treason'
These guys would be scary if they were close to you first turn...
The Iron Brethren is likely to count as a unique special Character unit, which I don't think is covered by the Rite of War, which allows you to take Legion-specific squads, not other Legion's heroes. Similar to how the Alpha Legion cannot use the Anakutis blade slaves because they are only taken with the special summoner dude.
I wonder what situation Mechanicum Ordinatus would ever be used in-game. Perhaps they're just for showcasing (as I'm sure some of the other large models exist).
Really makes me want to see Titanicus- now THERE is a a spot where models like this would get used!
EDIT: the battle automata just keep getting better and better. I might have to invest in them as opposed to starting a marine army for 30k!
Accolade wrote: I wonder what situation Mechanicum Ordinatus would ever be used in-game. Perhaps they're just for showcasing (as I'm sure some of the other large models exist).
Really makes me want to see Titanicus- now THERE is a a spot where models like this would get used!
EDIT: the battle automata just keep getting better and better. I might have to invest in them as opposed to starting a marine army for 30k!
The Saggitar is about 700 points, so could be deployed as a standard 3000 point Horus Heresy game. But yes, with weapons ranges in kilometres, Epic is so much better to use these in.
That, and so many more of the things that have popped up. Thousand Sons are going to make me so very, very poor. I am loving more and more of the Mechanicum stuff, there's lots I may pick up just to build and paint, even if I never do a Mechanicum army.
And I'm starting to come around on the Stormbird. Still aerodynamically ridiculous, still going to be an enormous pain in the butt to put together, but my Thousand Sons need one.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: My Dark Mechanicum! My beating heart! My poor poor wallet! That Macrocarid! That Porphyrion! That Protodrone!
And I was all set for Alphas as my allied astartes... but that Iron Warriors bot... gah! It's so sexy!
Why not have the best of both worlds?
Take Alpha Legion and use the Coils of the Hydra RoW
Then take the bots as your 'Rewards of Treason'
These guys would be scary if they were close to you first turn...
I...oh, my goodness.
I hadn't thought of that, although I should have. Yes, yes my Alpha Legion WILL have these. If possible.
Just thought I'd chime in and say that the Mastodon will not be released anytime soon.
When the guys who mass produce all FW models received it they immediately sent it back to the modellers asking them to redesign it as it is too complicated to mass produce.
RGilbert26 wrote: Just thought I'd chime in and say that the Mastodon will not be released anytime soon.
When the guys who mass produce all FW models received it they immediately sent it back to the modellers asking them to redesign it as it is too complicated to mass produce.
For what it's worth they tags with display for the Mastadon said April... Given what your saying that may simply have been the original plan.
Legion RoW (excluding BA, WS and DA) via the Australian 30K Heresy Community Facebook Group
Spoiler:
Legion exclusive rites of war
Sons of horus gain relentless while in their own deployment zone, fleet in no mans land, and crusader while in the enemy deployment zone, may also re roll all rolls of 1 to hit in the first turn. legion terminators are troops
death guard gain a cover save of 5+ while in the open as long as no enemy models are within 12", also rolls a D6 for each woodland terrain piece on the board, on a 4+, the piece has -1 to its cover save and is dangerous terrain to all non-DG units, all frag grenades and missiles are str5, must include siege breaker
world eaters gain FNP while in enemy deployment zone, ICs also gain IWND as well, enemy team gains +1 VP if WE player doesn't achieve 'attrition' or 'linebreaker' secondary objectives
emperor's children gain kakophoni squads as troops and they gain relentless, any infantry model in power armour or artificer armour may take sonic shriekers for cost
word bearers gain gal vorbak as troops, they may take drop pods and dreadclaws as DT. any unit that can take a rhino can instead take a drop pod, any enemy unit within the drop pods final landing spot (post scatter) takes a pinning test. all infantry units must deploy by deep strike
night lords gain night raptors as troops, any unit can take trophies of judgement for a fixed cost, any unit of 10 or more men, may take kharybdis assault claws as DT. must always charge if in range.
iron warriors: barrage weapons fired within 12" of friendly iron warriors only scatter D6, counters are left in the center of barrage attacks, if more barrage attacks are made within 18" of a counter and within 6" of friendly IWs do not scatter. also any IWs within 6" of a counter is fearless
alpha legion gain head hunters as troops, reroll who goes first, and any enemy unit shooting at an alpha legion unit must pass a leadership test first, unless they have already been shot at by alpha legion. enemy gains D3 VP if AL do not kill their warlord, all vehicles are held in reserves
imperial fists get phalanx warders as troops, any infantry unit can buy teleport arrays for a cost, units gain shrouded the turn they arrive via teleport array, plus enemy units with LoS and within 12" of the teleporting unit, must take a blind test at the of the phase
ultramarines must take a milita allies detachment with gene-crafted and warrior disciplines provenances, all infantry units in allied detachment gain infiltrator and implacable advance. recon marines lose 'support squad' rule.
iron hands gain medusan immortals as troops which are stubborn while in enemy deployment zone, also gain 'hatred(traitors)' rule across the whole army, no allies and no ferrus manus
raven guard for one turn only (of their choice) entire army gains zealot, gains D3 VPs for slay the warlord, allied militia are fearless while within 6" of raven guard infantry
salamanders cause fear, may chose to play additional game turn if random length in is use (instead of rolling) librarians gain special psychic power, which is a replacement 'pyromancy' primus power. str5 ap1 beam 18" range, and units that take casualties from it must take a morale check regardless of the 25% rule, with a negative modifier equal to the number of unsaved wounds caused.
next info dump: shattered legions, Black shields and dark compliances
Â
shattered legions Â
[*]must use legiones crusade army list[/*]
[*]must contain at least two different legions or more[/*]
[*]to take legion exclusive units, you must take a HQ choice from that legion[/*]
[*]can't take primarchs or legiones(black shield) units[/*]
[*]must declare if traitors or loyalists before game starts[/*]
[*]while the warlord is alive, all legions in the force treat each other as sworn brothers, once the warlord dies, all legions treat each other as distrusted allies[/*]
[*]no shattered legion units are denial[/*]
[*]can use any generic rite of war, and has 3 rites of war for shattered legions, may also use the legion exclusive rites of the legion the warlord belongs to[/*]
[*]certain legiones astartes rules are completely ignored (due to rules issues). list is proved in the rules. not going to bother repeating it here.[/*]
[*]certain legiones astartes rules carry over to all friendly shattered legion units in the same detachment, list proved in rules[/*]
[*]one rite of war is isstvan 5 survivors which makes tactical veterans troops, all marines gain hatred(traitor legions) and slay the warlord confers D3 VP rather than one. however must take 3 HQs, 1 iron hands, 1 raven guard and a salamander[/*]
[*]other is for the traitors that hunted them down, recon squads are regular troops and seeker squads become non-compulsory troops, wiping out enemy units confer additional VP to regular mission objectives, D3 VPs if wiped out through a sweeping advance. also when rolling a 6 to outflank, you may choose any side, not just left or right.[/*]
[*]the third rite of war, is actually one of the white scars which shattered legions can use as their own. will cover that one when i do the new legions.[/*]
army of dark compliance
[*]primary detachment is made up of any units from legion crusade or the militia/cult army list[/*]
[*]must contain at least a single praetor or centurion (including consuls) and they are the warlord[/*]
[*]must be traitors[/*]
[*]may not use rites of war[/*]
[*]legiones astartes rules do not carry over to militia[/*]
[*]units are counted as being from the same army list, so may share transports benefit from warlord traits .etc[/*]
[*]may not have more unit choices from legions than militia.[/*]
[*]may not take a discipline cadre (that's what the marines are for)[/*]
[*]legion astartes gain +1 to cover saves if shot at through a militia unit, however said unit takes D3 wounds with no AP value[/*]
[*]any militia unit may take the 'disposable' rule for free (don't confer victory points for being killed) but are no longer scoring.[/*]
Black shields
[*]is a new version of the legiones astartes rule, and uses the standard legion crusade army list[/*]
[*]adds +1 to the roll to see who goes first[/*]
[*]are 'by the emperors/horus's command' allies to legions, and fellow warriors to non-legion army lists[/*]
[*]may not take praetors, command squads, tactical squads, drop pods, dreadnought drop pods or deathstorm drop pods[/*]
[*]can't use rites of war, but can use the alternative FoCs.[/*]
[*]may only take a single consul of any kind[/*]
[*]must have more vehicles than infantry units[/*]
may take one or none of the following collections of rules
[*]gain FNP(6+) but must pass a leadership test to end the movement phase further away from a visible enemy unit then they started. if test is failed they move D6" towards the closest enemy unit they can see[/*]
[*]gain +1 leadership and rerolls 1s to hit while within 6" of another friendly blackshield unit, however they may not use the leadership value of other models and suffer D3 casualties if they fail a leadership test in the assault phase in addition to other effects. characters gain preferred enemy instead and can not take chaplains nor ally with other astartes[/*]
[*]up to half of the  infantry units without a dedicated transport gains deep strike but suffers D3 casualties if mishaps in addition to other effects, may take additional wargear options, characters may take rad grenades, after half of the blackshield units have been killed, each turn after, each unit must pass a leadership test or be removed from play[/*]
[*]may choose one of the following options but may not take allies
option 1: +1 str, +1 toughness, -1I, -1" to charge range, may not sweeping advance
option 2: +1ws, +1bs, -2ld
option 3: gains fear, fleet and rage, -1bs [/*]
[*]black shields may take a range of replacement wargear options called 'pariah' each confers a bonus over the original wargear, but has a negative attachment as well. won't list them here.[/*]
[*]may take a blackshield reaver lord, basically a speical praetor with different wargear options, all the basics are there, plus the pariah gear and some others, while some 'fancy' praetor gear isn't.[/*]
[*]black shields have a named character called 'nemean reaver' who is believed to be a former dark angel, may also be taken as a knight errant and replaces his blackshield special rules for the knight errant rules for a price.[/*]
[*]main basic squad is the 'marauders' 5-20 basic marines with lots of basic options and 1in5 can take special/heavy weapons[/*]
​knights errant
[*]nathaniel garro is as his pdf, only for note, the knights errant can be taken by any loyalist army, not just legiones astartes.[/*]
[*]tylos rubio is pretty much a librarian consul with the knights errant wargear and special rules, (mastery level 2). takes his powers from deviation and telekinesis, may re-roll failed psychic tests when rolling for divi powers. also has an ability, where any left over warp charge in your pool, gives him +1str for each warp charge to a maximum of str10. warp charge don't carry over between turns.[/*]
[*]build a knight is here, mostly basic options but everything is mastercrafted by default. may upgrade to a libby for usual consul price, may also take a selection of extra gear like narthecium, nuncio-vox or servo arm (gains battlesmith at the same time). has all the same rules as garro and rubio (by falsehood cloaked, oaths of moment, etc)[/*]
will cover the blood angels, white scars and dark angel rules next. then post all the new characters and generic units after that. BTW only dealing with book 6 for now. will cover the 'age of darkness legions' changes once i've finished with book 6.
next info dump: shattered legions, Black shields and dark compliances
Â
shattered legions Â
[*]must use legiones crusade army list[/*]
[*]must contain at least two different legions or more[/*]
[*]to take legion exclusive units, you must take a HQ choice from that legion[/*]
[*]can't take primarchs or legiones(black shield) units[/*]
[*]must declare if traitors or loyalists before game starts[/*]
[*]while the warlord is alive, all legions in the force treat each other as sworn brothers, once the warlord dies, all legions treat each other as distrusted allies[/*]
[*]no shattered legion units are denial[/*]
[*]can use any generic rite of war, and has 3 rites of war for shattered legions, may also use the legion exclusive rites of the legion the warlord belongs to[/*]
[*]certain legiones astartes rules are completely ignored (due to rules issues). list is proved in the rules. not going to bother repeating it here.[/*]
[*]certain legiones astartes rules carry over to all friendly shattered legion units in the same detachment, list proved in rules[/*]
[*]one rite of war is isstvan 5 survivors which makes tactical veterans troops, all marines gain hatred(traitor legions) and slay the warlord confers D3 VP rather than one. however must take 3 HQs, 1 iron hands, 1 raven guard and a salamander[/*]
[*]other is for the traitors that hunted them down, recon squads are regular troops and seeker squads become non-compulsory troops, wiping out enemy units confer additional VP to regular mission objectives, D3 VPs if wiped out through a sweeping advance. also when rolling a 6 to outflank, you may choose any side, not just left or right.[/*]
[*]the third rite of war, is actually one of the white scars which shattered legions can use as their own. will cover that one when i do the new legions.[/*]
army of dark compliance
[*]primary detachment is made up of any units from legion crusade or the militia/cult army list[/*]
[*]must contain at least a single praetor or centurion (including consuls) and they are the warlord[/*]
[*]must be traitors[/*]
[*]may not use rites of war[/*]
[*]legiones astartes rules do not carry over to militia[/*]
[*]units are counted as being from the same army list, so may share transports benefit from warlord traits .etc[/*]
[*]may not have more unit choices from legions than militia.[/*]
[*]may not take a discipline cadre (that's what the marines are for)[/*]
[*]legion astartes gain +1 to cover saves if shot at through a militia unit, however said unit takes D3 wounds with no AP value[/*]
[*]any militia unit may take the 'disposable' rule for free (don't confer victory points for being killed) but are no longer scoring.[/*]
Black shields
[*]is a new version of the legiones astartes rule, and uses the standard legion crusade army list[/*]
[*]adds +1 to the roll to see who goes first[/*]
[*]are 'by the emperors/horus's command' allies to legions, and fellow warriors to non-legion army lists[/*]
[*]may not take praetors, command squads, tactical squads, drop pods, dreadnought drop pods or deathstorm drop pods[/*]
[*]can't use rites of war, but can use the alternative FoCs.[/*]
[*]may only take a single consul of any kind[/*]
[*]must have more vehicles than infantry units[/*]
may take one or none of the following collections of rules
[*]gain FNP(6+) but must pass a leadership test to end the movement phase further away from a visible enemy unit then they started. if test is failed they move D6" towards the closest enemy unit they can see[/*]
[*]gain +1 leadership and rerolls 1s to hit while within 6" of another friendly blackshield unit, however they may not use the leadership value of other models and suffer D3 casualties if they fail a leadership test in the assault phase in addition to other effects. characters gain preferred enemy instead and can not take chaplains nor ally with other astartes[/*]
[*]up to half of the  infantry units without a dedicated transport gains deep strike but suffers D3 casualties if mishaps in addition to other effects, may take additional wargear options, characters may take rad grenades, after half of the blackshield units have been killed, each turn after, each unit must pass a leadership test or be removed from play[/*]
[*]may choose one of the following options but may not take allies
option 1: +1 str, +1 toughness, -1I, -1" to charge range, may not sweeping advance
option 2: +1ws, +1bs, -2ld
option 3: gains fear, fleet and rage, -1bs [/*]
[*]black shields may take a range of replacement wargear options called 'pariah' each confers a bonus over the original wargear, but has a negative attachment as well. won't list them here.[/*]
[*]may take a blackshield reaver lord, basically a speical praetor with different wargear options, all the basics are there, plus the pariah gear and some others, while some 'fancy' praetor gear isn't.[/*]
[*]black shields have a named character called 'nemean reaver' who is believed to be a former dark angel, may also be taken as a knight errant and replaces his blackshield special rules for the knight errant rules for a price.[/*]
[*]main basic squad is the 'marauders' 5-20 basic marines with lots of basic options and 1in5 can take special/heavy weapons[/*]
​knights errant
[*]nathaniel garro is as his pdf, only for note, the knights errant can be taken by any loyalist army, not just legiones astartes.[/*]
[*]tylos rubio is pretty much a librarian consul with the knights errant wargear and special rules, (mastery level 2). takes his powers from deviation and telekinesis, may re-roll failed psychic tests when rolling for divi powers. also has an ability, where any left over warp charge in your pool, gives him +1str for each warp charge to a maximum of str10. warp charge don't carry over between turns.[/*]
[*]build a knight is here, mostly basic options but everything is mastercrafted by default. may upgrade to a libby for usual consul price, may also take a selection of extra gear like narthecium, nuncio-vox or servo arm (gains battlesmith at the same time). has all the same rules as garro and rubio (by falsehood cloaked, oaths of moment, etc)[/*]
will cover the blood angels, white scars and dark angel rules next. then post all the new characters and generic units after that. BTW only dealing with book 6 for now. will cover the 'age of darkness legions' changes once i've finished with book 6.
Blackshields sure do have plenty of options...
It's a min-maxer's dream come true! Perfect for me!
Hmm. At first glance, those Shattered Legion rules look extremely disappointing. Lots of downsides, and the only upside appears to be sharing certain Legiones Astartes rules, whether that's useful or not rather depends on which ones(and which ones are ignored) and if there are any further conditions attached. Losing Sworn Brothers if the Warlord goes down is a big deal unless you construct your army around the chance of it happening, at which point you'd be as well just doing a normal army with Allies. The Survivors RoW is all right I suppose, but the HQ tax is hefty. The Traitor one at least gives you some interesting Troop-swappery.
You'd probably be better off just picking one Legion ruleset and then painting thematic units in other Legions that match them, rather than using these rules. Well, we'll wait and see for now; unlike GW, FW still deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Yodhrin wrote: Hmm. At first glance, those Shattered Legion rules look extremely disappointing. Lots of downsides, and the only upside appears to be sharing certain Legiones Astartes rules, whether that's useful or not rather depends on which ones(and which ones are ignored) and if there are any further conditions attached. Losing Sworn Brothers if the Warlord goes down is a big deal unless you construct your army around the chance of it happening, at which point you'd be as well just doing a normal army with Allies. The Survivors RoW is all right I suppose, but the HQ tax is hefty. The Traitor one at least gives you some interesting Troop-swappery.
You'd probably be better off just picking one Legion ruleset and then painting thematic units in other Legions that match them, rather than using these rules. Well, we'll wait and see for now; unlike GW, FW still deserve the benefit of the doubt.
From the looks of it, I'll still be better off using my current setup (take the LA rules of whichever Legion my Warlord is from, so IH Praetor=IH rules, RG Centurion=RG rules ect). I have mixed Legion squads that can't easily be rearranged into specific Legion squads, so the ability to mix and match Legions within a force is kind of lost on me.
Still, I'll withhold any decision I make until I can see the full text and details, there might be something that I missed from the summary.
It's meant to be more fluff driven than rules min-maxing. You're in the wrong game if you want the rules to be "good" more than "representative." You can want both but the latter takes preeminence.
Things that can't be conferred are apparently the things that make sense. Raven Guard aren't going to suddenly all have bionics or more master crafted weapons just because they're fighting along side Iron Hands and Salamanders.
You should rightfully end up with a force predominantly of one legion using veterans of another legion as specialists in a particular role.
aka_mythos wrote: It's meant to be more fluff driven than rules min-maxing. You're in the wrong game if you want the rules to be "good" more than "representative." You can want both but the latter takes preeminence.
Things that can't be conferred are apparently the things that make sense. Raven Guard aren't going to suddenly all have bionics or more master crafted weapons just because they're fighting along side Iron Hands and Salamanders.
You should rightfully end up with a force predominantly of one legion using veterans of another legion as specialists in a particular role.
Absolutely! I was simply pointing out that these rules don't represent my army any differently to the existing ones, and that's fine, I don't expect FW to write their rules around how awkwardly I've put my force together! I was wondering if the Shattered Legions would get some new or alternate unit choices to represent their weakened but elite status (5-man Tac squads or Veteran Assault Marines and stuff like that), they didn't, but I'm not complaining!
I'm hoping tomorrow sees Dorn and the Warlord titan parts released.
I'm really curious how long until those weapon sets come out- if they do by the time the warlord weapons come along, I'll have to choose between the existing volkite culverns or the new ones.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I'm hoping tomorrow sees Dorn and the Warlord titan parts released.
I'm really curious how long until those weapon sets come out- if they do by the time the warlord weapons come along, I'll have to choose between the existing volkite culverns or the new ones.
Hmm... Weird, it's working for me. Dang, sorry guys. Well the gist of it is that they are 205 points a piece, t7\s7\4w\i3, get d3 HoW, have at innitiative TH that get extra hits for every 6, have Heavy 5 pinning HB, and best of all can be joined by a single IWIC, including Perturabo.
EDIT: Oh, and they have a 3+\5++ that becomes a 3+\4++ Hardened armor when two or more are B2B. And, you can take four as Perturabo's personal Bogygaurd, and they get to have either +1 WS, +1LD, +1 I or 6+ FNP if you do but they have to join him.
Swampmist wrote: They make Perturabo the single hardest to kill primarch because he gets a t7 body guard, and they give him free hardened armor.
I was afraid of that as soon as I saw that the models were actually going to be made. It's hard enough to shoot down a Primarch when he just has a squad of T4 dudes around him, but giving Perturabo some beefy MCs as bodyguards? Ouch. At least they'll have to walk across the board instead of being in a sweet ride.
MajorWesJanson wrote: I'm hoping tomorrow sees Dorn and the Warlord titan parts released.
I'm really curious how long until those weapon sets come out- if they do by the time the warlord weapons come along, I'll have to choose between the existing volkite culverns or the new ones.
Courtesy of B&C:
Spoiler:
Awesome! Thanks!
Now my friend is hoping for Dorn for our joint order. I want these to go up in the next week or two!
aka_mythos wrote: It's meant to be more fluff driven than rules min-maxing. You're in the wrong game if you want the rules to be "good" more than "representative." You can want both but the latter takes preeminence.
Things that can't be conferred are apparently the things that make sense. Raven Guard aren't going to suddenly all have bionics or more master crafted weapons just because they're fighting along side Iron Hands and Salamanders.
You should rightfully end up with a force predominantly of one legion using veterans of another legion as specialists in a particular role.
Why is any commentary on the effectiveness of rules immediately taken as indicative of a desire for full-on min-maxed cheesemongering? It's entirely possible for rules to be both fluffy and good, indeed that's more common than not with the Heresy stuff which is why a part of the game I was very much looking forward to being potentially otherwise is disappointing.
And you can achieve your last suggestion right now by simply painting for example your Salamanders Recon squad as Raven Guard, or by taking a small Allied detachment of Sallies with your Iron Hands, and not have to deal with the Shattered downsides.
Still think the Stormbird is a major miss. Looks better than the WIP version, but still far from the "elegant work of art" vs the "blocky, mass produced" Thunderhawk. This just looks like a heavy-duty thunderhawk that borrowed parts from a Fire Raptor.
Swampmist wrote: They make Perturabo the single hardest to kill primarch because he gets a t7 body guard, and they give him free hardened armor.
I was afraid of that as soon as I saw that the models were actually going to be made. It's hard enough to shoot down a Primarch when he just has a squad of T4 dudes around him, but giving Perturabo some beefy MCs as bodyguards? Ouch. At least they'll have to walk across the board instead of being in a sweet ride.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Still think the Stormbird is a major miss. Looks better than the WIP version, but still far from the "elegant work of art" vs the "blocky, mass produced" Thunderhawk. This just looks like a heavy-duty thunderhawk that borrowed parts from a Fire Raptor.
I dunno. I sort of like it. The problem is, I've had horrid luck with their large kits and that really makes me hesitant to purchase one.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Still think the Stormbird is a major miss. Looks better than the WIP version, but still far from the "elegant work of art" vs the "blocky, mass produced" Thunderhawk. This just looks like a heavy-duty thunderhawk that borrowed parts from a Fire Raptor.
It looks like a Thunderhawk who's office is too close to a cake shop, that's what it looks like.
Not saying I hate it, but I think technical limitations may have restricted the vision somewhat.
I've been looking it over, and I see the two ball turrets on each side, the missile pylons under the wings, and what looks like a twin heavy bolter tail gun. Any other guns on it?
I'm actually one of the few who thinks the Thunderhawk looks completely idiotic with the front end dipping down like that. The Stormbird fixes that pretty nicely.
But I'm sure many will disagree with my assessment and that's fine.
No, the Thunderhawk does look pretty idiotic. The Stormbird looks equally unflightworthy, but does add a few style points that are far better than the THawk, and so I may actually get one for my Thousand Sons.
Breotan wrote: I'm actually one of the few who thinks the Thunderhawk looks completely idiotic with the front end dipping down like that. The Stormbird fixes that pretty nicely.
But I'm sure many will disagree with my assessment and that's fine.
I like the thunderhawk as is (mostly) but if they pulled the bottom of the nose back to make a single large compartment, and then made a smooth taper up to the rear engine rather than the drop-nose it has now, I would be fine with it.
Barring the missile pods on the roof, I think the Storm Eagle is the best looking of the SM fliers. I would have liked to see the Storm-bird look like a scaled up version of that, rather than a stretched thunderhawk.
It's probably a design necessity of using resin that the wings on the thunderhawk and stormbird are so thick and blocky- they look bad but have to support weight. Plastic would let them make much thinner, more wing looking wings.
Zuul wrote: Am I the only one to notice the phosphex shells on the new quad mortar rules are unlocked by a consul called a "Siege Master"?
Probably a typo or rename of the Siege Breaker, who gives phospex shells to Legion Medusas as part of his rules.
Those are some great pictures! Thanks for linking them.
Re. the Stormbird, I really didn't like the design from the mock-ups we saw ages ago until I saw this picture which now has me craving one. Great design on the nose of the ship and I'm a big fan of the bulkiness of the whole thing.
Also I love all the new robots and TSons stuff. My wallet is screaming considering I am collecting a rapidly growing army of both...
Seeing what a great job FW did of de-plagueifying the Nurgle Drone, I would love to see them tackle the Decimator next. Maybe even followed by a few other Chaos engines.
So I have some second hand information from a person who's friend is at the Weekender: apparently FW plans to continue on with the 30k books after the Emperor has been put on life support.
Personally I'm taking that with a salt mine, but it could be that at some point in the far future FW gives us some 30k-era xenos rules (even if they are just Orks and Eldar).
Matt.Kingsley wrote: So I have some second hand information from a person who's friend is at the Weekender: apparently FW plans to continue on with the 30k books after the Emperor has been put on life support.
Personally I'm taking that with a salt mine, but it could be that at some point in the far future FW gives us some 30k-era xenos rules (even if they are just Orks and Eldar).
Aye, that was mentioned in the seminars yesterday, they'll like to do the scouring. Also, Black Library are going to start on the beginnings of the siege of terra!
Breotan wrote: I'm actually one of the few who thinks the Thunderhawk looks completely idiotic with the front end dipping down like that. The Stormbird fixes that pretty nicely.
But I'm sure many will disagree with my assessment and that's fine.
The thunderhawk is one of the dumbest looking models I've ever seen. The stormbird looks much better.
MajorWesJanson wrote: Still think the Stormbird is a major miss. Looks better than the WIP version, but still far from the "elegant work of art" vs the "blocky, mass produced" Thunderhawk. This just looks like a heavy-duty thunderhawk that borrowed parts from a Fire Raptor.
This is the Sokar pattern stormbird, which apparently was one of the later patterns that the mass produced Thunderhawk is based off of.
VeteranNoob wrote: Epic 30K in a new scale makes me happy and glad my squat I'll be more inline
New scale makes me sad for my existing epic Knights and titans, but if we get models of the quality of the mini-warlord I will be happy. Will have to buy Newepic models at least of my 28mm titans and knights.
New Knight is kind of cool looking, but even FW can only do so much to make the egg with guns design of the old Wards look good. Think I'll go for a Macroraid Explorator and some of the Secutarii kits before I do the new new Knight.
VeteranNoob wrote: Epic 30K in a new scale makes me happy and glad my squat I'll be more inline
New scale makes me sad for my existing epic Knights and titans, but if we get models of the quality of the mini-warlord I will be happy. Will have to buy Newepic models at least of my 28mm titans and knights.
New Knight is kind of cool looking, but even FW can only do so much to make the egg with guns design of the old Wards look good. Think I'll go for a Macroraid Explorator and some of the Secutarii kits before I do the new new Knight.
Nice. Really looking forward to Chaos versions as well down the line.
Pretty much the same info is dancing around all the forums now but Battle Bunnies was main source from this, updating their blog constantly through sessions. Battlebunnies.blogspot.com should do it.
Vorian wrote: Ah, I thought I'd been following quite closely, but veteran's mention was the first thing I'd seen in the subject.
Do we know if it's bigger? Smaller? Is scale the only news?
It was mentioned elsewhere not here, that's why you missed it I don't know, I think scale was the only thing mentioned. People are speculating 10mm instead of 6mm but I don't think it was mentioned.
According to what we have so far the exact scale was not announced and so numbers a only speculation but maybe an info dump at. The end will reveal more. FW did say they are already working on it. No chaos warlord for at least 2 years and not even trying Imperator right now.
All taken from the gestalt (to use a BL favorite Term) mass of info floating around the forums receiving info from attendees
the_Armyman wrote: Is the Domitar in the Mechanicum Red Book? Or is it in one of the HH hardbacks?
Yes it's in the red book, T7, S6, W3 so not quite as good as Perturabo's body guard version, and at 175pts I think I'd rather just run another Castellax instead or that new Jump MC we saw the rules for yesterday.
The main issue with the stormbird is that in the fluff it was never just a "bigger thunderhawk".. but FW probabaly didn't want to design a totally new vehicle so they made it a quick upgrade to their thunderhawk kit.
In the books you even have quotes about how the thunderhawk looks dumb and how superior the design of the stormbird is.. obviously that means it looks virtually the same?!
Kirasu wrote: The main issue with the stormbird is that in the fluff it was never just a "bigger thunderhawk".. but FW probabaly didn't want to design a totally new vehicle so they made it a quick upgrade to their thunderhawk kit.
In the books you even have quotes about how the thunderhawk looks dumb and how superior the design of the stormbird is.. obviously that means it looks virtually the same?!
This is just one pattern of stormbird, a later one, more like the Thunderhawk. I'm sure there's a possibility of other patterns of Stormbird in the future.
Considering it's fluff though, it does seem a little small? If you are going to make it capable of holding a rhino, why not just make it wider so it can fit a pred with sponsons? (this is assuming it is tall enough to cater for the turret as well, which is may not)
I thought they were meant to have some nose cannon weapon as well?
Considering it's fluff though, it does seem a little small? If you are going to make it capable of holding a rhino, why not just make it wider so it can fit a pred with sponsons? (this is assuming it is tall enough to cater for the turret as well, which is may not)
I thought they were meant to have some nose cannon weapon as well?
Anyway, like I said, awesome model still!
As Imageek has pointed out, this is a later pattern of Stormbird, which is smaller and part of the design trend that lead to the Thunderhawk. The earlier, larger ones are more likely to fit the established BL fluff, although the BL fluff is pretty inconsistent, which is likely why FW went for a 'multiple patterns of Stormbird' approach to maintain canon.
I posted them here yesterday but I might have screwed something up or maybe pics aren't allowed. I'm dancing across 5 forums at the same time so sorry I can PM you a messgae if that's allowed
VeteranNoob wrote: I posted them here yesterday but I might have screwed something up or maybe pics aren't allowed. I'm dancing across 5 forums at the same time so sorry I can PM you a messgae if that's allowed
Not got any of my old "space marine" Titans any more.
If they do go 10mm that might actually make me more likely to buy into the new version of epic, as I'd also get scenery 4ground stuff is stunning) and get into dropzone commander too.
(And have the inevitable crossover game vs the scourge)
VeteranNoob wrote: I posted them here yesterday but I might have screwed something up or maybe pics aren't allowed. I'm dancing across 5 forums at the same time so sorry I can PM you a messgae if that's allowed
Sounds great! Thanks.
Sent, enjoy!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Forgive me, as I said I'm dancing across 5 forums, twitter, FB groups and editing my own show for news on HHWeekender to come out in like an hour But if I can point you to a site I'm happy.
Battlebunnies.blogspot.co.uk has a LOT, everything, as does great coverage from The Imperial Truth on FB, twitter, your pick.
Really disappointed with those Scutarii. I mean, they look great, they're a nice variation on the 40K plastics, but that's all they are, it's a huge missed opportunity to further differentiate 30K & 40K armies and to provide models for some of the other types of Skitarii that have been described over the years. This would be like if FW's entire Legiones Astartes model range was helmets and guns that made MK7 plastics look slightly different
Yodhrin wrote: Really disappointed with those Scutarii. I mean, they look great, they're a nice variation on the 40K plastics, but that's all they are, it's a huge missed opportunity to further differentiate 30K & 40K armies and to provide models for some of the other types of Skitarii that have been described over the years. This would be like if FW's entire Legiones Astartes model range was helmets and guns that made MK7 plastics look slightly different
I feel it would be a wasted opportunity if they didn't allow the Skitarii plastics in as 30k versions directly, along with the resin upgrades, in the same way they have allowed Imperial Guard stuff as Auxilia militia. This would allow people to use the models they already have to bulk out the force quickly. I suspect they will follow up the resin conversion kits with full resin kits of 30k unique stuff though.
Yodhrin wrote: Really disappointed with those Scutarii. I mean, they look great, they're a nice variation on the 40K plastics, but that's all they are, it's a huge missed opportunity to further differentiate 30K & 40K armies and to provide models for some of the other types of Skitarii that have been described over the years. This would be like if FW's entire Legiones Astartes model range was helmets and guns that made MK7 plastics look slightly different
I feel it would be a wasted opportunity if they didn't allow the Skitarii plastics in as 30k versions directly, along with the resin upgrades, in the same way they have allowed Imperial Guard stuff as Auxilia militia. This would allow people to use the models they already have to bulk out the force quickly. I suspect they will follow up the resin conversion kits with full resin kits of 30k unique stuff though.
You can use them right now as Adsecularis or by taking Imperialis Militia allies with appropriate Provenances as Autokrator Tech-guard. Adding new Skitarii units was a chance to do something different, but it wouldn't be as easy to sell a whole new kind of Skitarii to 40K players when the next Imperial Armour rolls around as opposed to these upgrades that match the 40K aesthetic, so I guess money talks.
*Primarch reveal at the end!*
We talk news, hobby and games played. The Horus Heresy Weekender was going on as we recorded so quite a bit of news in here as well. Kenny played his first AoS game with his new Fyreslayers from their Battletome as well, so have a listen and revel in the Fyre and Slaying! Then, Kenny relays some news coming from the Weekender. Go check out your source of choice, but here's some suggestions below.
Then Zachary Becker comes and talks to us about the London 40KGT, bringing a 40K tournament back to London after 20 years. Check it out and go have a cracking (<-- see, I learned some UK English) time in London!
Did anyone see or get better info on the Alpha Legion Contemptor? From the pic I saw couldn't read any of the description underneath... It's in book 6 if anyone who bought it could post a pic please?
the_Armyman wrote: Is the Domitar in the Mechanicum Red Book? Or is it in one of the HH hardbacks?
Yes it's in the red book, T7, S6, W3 so not quite as good as Perturabo's body guard version, and at 175pts I think I'd rather just run another Castellax instead or that new Jump MC we saw the rules for yesterday.
Thank you
zedmeister wrote:There's only one thing I want to say when I heard that Epic won't return in 6mm...
Spoiler:
Why, why would anyone believe differently? Specialist Games Studio will change the scales of everyone's beloved games and/or they're going to demolish existing rules with completely new versions. There will be no free rides for vets!
Jamie24 wrote: Did anyone see or get better info on the Alpha Legion Contemptor? From the pic I saw couldn't read any of the description underneath... It's in book 6 if anyone who bought it could post a pic please?
I'm confused, the Alpha Legion contemptor model is already out?
I think as far as an aircraft model goes the Stormbird is the largest practical model. Yes Im sure you can build bigger aircraft but unlike a Titan when you set this on the table it fills most of a quarter of a normal gaming table. Build it any larger it can start landed and just disembark its units into the enemy side of the table without moving.
zedmeister wrote: There's only one thing I want to say when I heard that Epic won't return in 6mm...
Spoiler:
I don't think you should be surprised. There was always an inconsistency with the scale for Epic and I think they intend to fix it. They had 4 different miniature scales. Yes infantry was 6mm but vehicles, aircraft, Titans were all different scales.
Harriticus wrote: Honestly I expected the storm bird to be bigger and carry more firepower. They're described as massive gunships that can carry an entire company
It's just one Stormbird pattern, the newest, smallest one, the precursor to the mass produced Thunderhawk.
Jamie24 wrote: Did anyone see or get better info on the Alpha Legion Contemptor? From the pic I saw couldn't read any of the description underneath... It's in book 6 if anyone who bought it could post a pic please?
I'm confused, the Alpha Legion contemptor model is already out?
BrookM wrote: The books are full with that sort of stuff, nothing new there really.
Nothing of real importance no, was just interested in the extra fluff, so was hoping someone who had got the book yesterday or today would be kind enough to snap a pic of it clearly enough to read.
So far in reports not. Lot of specific dates, or rather, any at all. I'm pretty confident the next few weeks in February will see the book 6, Mechanicus model from the event and a BL book as well as plastic BaC terminator resin upgrades but that is only best guesses from talks with attendees..nothing concrete.
A great and furiously empoverished time to be a gamer.
Really like the Urusax. I wonder how the automata drone compares in size to the blight drone, it seems a lot bigger but I think I'm probably unclear about that.
EDIT: looking at some size comparisons, I believe they're the same size. Guess I just thought blight drones were smaller from some odd reason.
Accolade wrote: Really like the Urusax. I wonder how the automata drone compares in size to the blight drone, it seems a lot bigger but I think I'm probably unclear about that.
EDIT: looking at some size comparisons, I believe they're the same size. Guess I just thought blight drones were smaller from some odd reason.
I guess it is the new one being on the larger flying stand that makes it seem larger - I haven't seen a side by side comparison though
ImAGeek wrote: I really like the Ursarax. Actually I really like all the Mechanicum stuff, I don't know why I don't play Mechanicum!
Wallet concerns perhaps?
I know how you feel though, I've been going over the idea of jumping into 30k. But Mechanicus (in either from) has always been one of my favorite factions, so why not eschew any of hte legions and just go for them?
ImAGeek wrote: I really like the Ursarax. Actually I really like all the Mechanicum stuff, I don't know why I don't play Mechanicum!
Wallet concerns perhaps?
I know how you feel though, I've been going over the idea of jumping into 30k. But Mechanicus (in either from) has always been one of my favorite factions, so why not eschew any of hte legions and just go for them?
Well aside from that, that's never stopped me before have even less sense than I do money! But I was never that interested in them before, but as each new model for them comes out I wonder why I'm not doing them. Might have to do at least an allied force of them.
Yaraton wrote:Courtesy of B&C, I am 99.99% sure that the Alpharius model is going to be a helmeted version:
Spoiler:
That image of him isn't new, we've had that since book 3. I hope he is helmeted though, I think they all should have had the option at least.
That image of him isn't new, we've had that since book 3. I hope he is helmeted though, I think they all should have had the option at least.
I am well aware about that image, I have the book but considering that FW decided to include that image in the list of HH characters new and to be made, I am now positive that this is going to be the final version for the model.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrookM wrote: What is the current event only model by the way?
I'm at home with book 6 now if anyone has any questions about the event or the book.
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet but I was speaking to Andy Hoare and Alan Bligh on the Saturday about how expensive the Assault Marines are (Blood Angel player), they told me that the Legion Army list will be getting redone and that the Assault marines will be getting a massive points reduction. A few other units will be getting some changes as well.
Thamor wrote: I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet but I was speaking to Andy Hoare and Alan Bligh on the Saturday about how expensive the Assault Marines are (Blood Angel player), they told me that the Legion Army list will be getting redone and that the Assault marines will be getting a massive points reduction. A few other units will be getting some changes as well.
YES. Every time I think about starting a Raven Guard army I remember how stupidly overpriced the assault marines are, and lose interest in the idea.
There's the original list from Betrayal (Book 1).
This was then updated in the Crusade Army List red book with the units added in Massacre (Book 2) and Extermination (Book 3) along with some rules changes (not entirely sure what the exact changes are though, just that there's a few of them).
Then Tempest (Book 5) and now Retribution (Book 6) have added more units to that list, but don't actually include the full army list.
Hopefully the new Crusade Army List red book will include these new units along with the rules changes...
Matt.Kingsley wrote: There's the original list from Betrayal (Book 1).
This was then updated in the Crusade Army List red book with the units added in Massacre (Book 2) and Extermination (Book 3) along with some rules changes (not entirely sure what the exact changes are though, just that there's a few of them).
Then Tempest (Book 5) and now Retribution (Book 6) have added more units to that list, but don't actually include the full army list.
Hopefully the new Crusade Army List red book will include these new units along with the rules changes...
Correct, all the new units and changes to the old units will be rolled into a new Red book sometime this year. Solar Auxilia, Imperial Army and Knights get their own book and All the special characters and units are in a book together with updated rules.
Iron Circle are in the new Red Book that was sold on Saturday. Peturabo can take a min of 4 and max 6. They can also be taken for Iron Warrior Praetors/Consuls. Reason for that is because A) To help protect his generals B) To keep an eye on or kill his generals because he doesn't trust them. They should be on sale soon, roughly £60 each
Inferno late this year, Shadow Crusade early 2017 and possibly Signus late 2017 (not decided)
Matt.Kingsley wrote: There's the original list from Betrayal (Book 1).
This was then updated in the Crusade Army List red book with the units added in Massacre (Book 2) and Extermination (Book 3) along with some rules changes (not entirely sure what the exact changes are though, just that there's a few of them).
Then Tempest (Book 5) and now Retribution (Book 6) have added more units to that list, but don't actually include the full army list.
Hopefully the new Crusade Army List red book will include these new units along with the rules changes...
Correct, all the new units and changes to the old units will be rolled into a new Red book sometime this year. Solar Auxilia, Imperial Army and Knights get their own book and All the special characters and units are in a book together with updated rules.
Iron Circle are in the new Red Book that was sold on Saturday. Peturabo can take a min of 4 and max 6. They can also be taken for Iron Warrior Praetors/Consuls. Reason for that is because A) To help protect his generals B) To keep an eye on or kill his generals because he doesn't trust them. They should be on sale soon, roughly £60 each
Inferno late this year, Shadow Crusade early 2017 and possibly Signus late 2017 (not decided)
Matt.Kingsley wrote: There's the original list from Betrayal (Book 1).
This was then updated in the Crusade Army List red book with the units added in Massacre (Book 2) and Extermination (Book 3) along with some rules changes (not entirely sure what the exact changes are though, just that there's a few of them).
Then Tempest (Book 5) and now Retribution (Book 6) have added more units to that list, but don't actually include the full army list.
Hopefully the new Crusade Army List red book will include these new units along with the rules changes...
Correct, all the new units and changes to the old units will be rolled into a new Red book sometime this year. Solar Auxilia, Imperial Army and Knights get their own book and All the special characters and units are in a book together with updated rules.
Iron Circle are in the new Red Book that was sold on Saturday. Peturabo can take a min of 4 and max 6. They can also be taken for Iron Warrior Praetors/Consuls. Reason for that is because A) To help protect his generals B) To keep an eye on or kill his generals because he doesn't trust them. They should be on sale soon, roughly £60 each
Inferno late this year, Shadow Crusade early 2017 and possibly Signus late 2017 (not decided)
60 pounds for each set or each miniature?
They are based off the Domitar which cost £48 each. Iron circle have a little more detail plus a hammer and a big shield, so slightly more expensive
Blood Angels can add Assault Cannons to Predators... for free. Very cheap Predators
Thamor wrote: Solar Auxilia, Imperial Army and Knights get their own book
Did they show it at the event? If so, did anything change in the auxilia or militia lists?
Nothing was shown I'm afraid, Only told what was inside it. Knights do get the new GW ones included. A question was asked about Army and SA special characters and it's something they will get around to.
Thamor wrote: I'm at home with book 6 now if anyone has any questions about the event or the book.
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet but I was speaking to Andy Hoare and Alan Bligh on the Saturday about how expensive the Assault Marines are (Blood Angel player), they told me that the Legion Army list will be getting redone and that the Assault marines will be getting a massive points reduction. A few other units will be getting some changes as well.
Has there been any updates to Death Guard in book 6?
Any new consuls?
I really hope Durak Rask can unlock phosphex like a siege breaker in the new edition. He was the legion's marshal of ordinance for crying out loud!
Thamor wrote: I'm at home with book 6 now if anyone has any questions about the event or the book.
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet but I was speaking to Andy Hoare and Alan Bligh on the Saturday about how expensive the Assault Marines are (Blood Angel player), they told me that the Legion Army list will be getting redone and that the Assault marines will be getting a massive points reduction. A few other units will be getting some changes as well.
Has there been any updates to Death Guard in book 6?
Any new consuls?
I really hope Durak Rask can unlock phosphex like a siege breaker in the new edition. He was the legion's marshal of ordinance for crying out loud!
Sadly not in book 6 unless it's hidden n code..but, Morty lost unwieldy and our power scythes don't suck anymore against anything above tac marines
Thamor wrote: I'm at home with book 6 now if anyone has any questions about the event or the book.
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet but I was speaking to Andy Hoare and Alan Bligh on the Saturday about how expensive the Assault Marines are (Blood Angel player), they told me that the Legion Army list will be getting redone and that the Assault marines will be getting a massive points reduction. A few other units will be getting some changes as well.
Has there been any updates to Death Guard in book 6?
Any new consuls?
I really hope Durak Rask can unlock phosphex like a siege breaker in the new edition. He was the legion's marshal of ordinance for crying out loud!
Sadly not in book 6 unless it's hidden n code..but, Morty lost unwieldy and our power scythes don't suck anymore against anything above tac marines
Wait, non-unwieldy power scythes!!?? O_O I know what my new favourite toy might be.
While that does make them better, there's still the matter of them landing only one attack 50% of the time and not having a way to get to melee quicker.
HH is its own game though so I'm not sure how that works out. In 40k they're not spectacular.
I just had a silly idea. Attach a vigilator to the iron circle so they can outflank...... lol Would kinda defeat the purpose of them as body guards for a beat stick HQ. But haveing them outflank into the enemy deployment zone to play golf with the enemy tanks using their grav-hammers would be prety entertaining.
While that does make them better, there's still the matter of them landing only one attack 50% of the time and not having a way to get to melee quicker.
HH is its own game though so I'm not sure how that works out. In 40k they're not spectacular.
D nerfs, LoW nerfs, less scoring and a fewer MCs certainly help them. Like, the biggest thing they do is let you walk around with 4-to-24 t7 Ablative wounds for Perturabo or another IC.
Lockark wrote: I just had a silly idea. Attach a vigilator to the iron circle so they can outflank...... lol Would kinda defeat the purpose of them as body guards for a beat stick HQ. But haveing them outflank into the enemy deployment zone to play golf with the enemy tanks using their grav-hammers would be prety entertaining.
I've been out of 40K for a few editions, and haven't kept up with 30K either, but are there characters that can teleport down that these could join.
Lockark wrote: I just had a silly idea. Attach a vigilator to the iron circle so they can outflank...... lol Would kinda defeat the purpose of them as body guards for a beat stick HQ. But haveing them outflank into the enemy deployment zone to play golf with the enemy tanks using their grav-hammers would be prety entertaining.
I've been out of 40K for a few editions, and haven't kept up with 30K either, but are there characters that can teleport down that these could join.
Sadly, that's not how the Deep Strike rules work... HOWEVER, it IS possible that Perturabo will get an update that let's them do so. Which would be dope as hell for my pincer strat, and sadly super abusable.
timd wrote: Stormbird's vertical fins are supported only by the upper engines? Seems like a bit of a structural fail...
T
And a maintenance nightmare.
Pssst... the wings are also supported only by the engines. That's a bigger problem than the upper fins, I'm afraid.
Ack! You're right. The fail is not usually so strong with Forge World.
Much easier to design as opposed to their typical design of engine on top of, or under the wings?
T
I'm not actually overly fussed by that detail, probably a result of seeing some heavy fighter aircraft whose wings are held on by just six bolts apiece, with most of the weight held by just three.
Thamor wrote: I'm at home with book 6 now if anyone has any questions about the event or the book.
Can you tell us any more about the "whole army of tanks" rite of war? It was posted earlier that you get Predator squadrons as troops and Sicarans as elites, but do you get anything else? Special rules, HQ tanks, warlord traits, etc?
Thamor wrote: I'm at home with book 6 now if anyone has any questions about the event or the book.
Can you tell us any more about the "whole army of tanks" rite of war? It was posted earlier that you get Predator squadrons as troops and Sicarans as elites, but do you get anything else? Special rules, HQ tanks, warlord traits, etc?
That would be amazing. Damocles Command Rhino with Predators, Sicarans, Artillery...
Thamor wrote: I'm at home with book 6 now if anyone has any questions about the event or the book.
Can you tell us any more about the "whole army of tanks" rite of war? It was posted earlier that you get Predator squadrons as troops and Sicarans as elites, but do you get anything else? Special rules, HQ tanks, warlord traits, etc?
Only basic predators with the assault cannon and sponons must be taken as compulsory troops, Sicarans are elites. One of your Sicarans or Predators can become the Warlord and gets +1BS for free. All vehicles thats have 3 HP or less get fast.
All infantry need a dedicated transport, with tank or super heavy special type.
Can't have more flyers or skimmers(in total) than Tanks
Thamor wrote: Only basic predators with the assault cannon and sponons must be taken as compulsory troops, Sicarans are elites. One of your Sicarans or Predators can become the Warlord and gets +1BS for free. All vehicles thats have 3 HP or less get fast.
By "assault cannon" do you mean actual assault cannons (which aren't a normal option in the army list before this book) or the autocannon? Or just the Predator with normal turret options?
And does the warlord tank get a different warlord trait/table? Some of the standard ones wouldn't make any sense for a tank in a tank army.
Looking at the preview image for the video, the Stormbird has gaps in the backs of its "wings". Could this at last be an attempt to explain the lack of aerodynamics with advanced technology, as so many fan theories - including mine - have in the past?
Thamor wrote: I'm at home with book 6 now if anyone has any questions about the event or the book.
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet but I was speaking to Andy Hoare and Alan Bligh on the Saturday about how expensive the Assault Marines are (Blood Angel player), they told me that the Legion Army list will be getting redone and that the Assault marines will be getting a massive points reduction. A few other units will be getting some changes as well.
Has there been any updates to Death Guard in book 6?
Any new consuls?
I really hope Durak Rask can unlock phosphex like a siege breaker in the new edition. He was the legion's marshal of ordinance for crying out loud!
Sadly not in book 6 unless it's hidden n code..but, Morty lost unwieldy and our power scythes don't suck anymore against anything above tac marines
Wait, non-unwieldy power scythes!!?? O_O I know what my new favourite toy might be.
If you haven't seen it yet the new DG, and the ofthe as well, are floating all around the Internet, some as pics and some as text. I expect to see more today later after attendees had. A chance to get home and rested..
Thamor wrote: Only basic predators with the assault cannon and sponons must be taken as compulsory troops, Sicarans are elites. One of your Sicarans or Predators can become the Warlord and gets +1BS for free. All vehicles thats have 3 HP or less get fast.
By "assault cannon" do you mean actual assault cannons (which aren't a normal option in the army list before this book) or the autocannon? Or just the Predator with normal turret options?
And does the warlord tank get a different warlord trait/table? Some of the standard ones wouldn't make any sense for a tank in a tank army.
Sorry, my fault. I had just woken up. It's the Autocannon.
The extra BS is the Warlord trait
BrookM wrote:Maybe it's like the Solar Auxilia tank commander and you just get a boost in BS and a USR from a list, no warlord trait.
Thamor wrote: Sorry, my fault. I had just woken up. It's the Autocannon.
Hm. Being limited to the barely-useful-in-30k autocannon is kind of disappointing when the other turrets are so much better, but I guess 110 points for an AV 13 scoring unit with the AC and 3x HBs is not terrible. And now that it's a fast vehicle you can move 6" and shoot all of those guns.
The Domitar and non nurgle plague drone are both lovely models.
The news that epic is being re-scaled sounds like an own goal, surely all that will do is piss off and alienate the current / old player base. I could understand them redoing parts, such as flyers / titans as some things were of scale with each other, but now really nervous they will make everything 15mm or something and totally invalidate all old models.
I’m an Epic player (in fact we played NetEpic at my club last Thursday) and while there is an element of sadness that the new game will probably be 10mm in scale, I recognise it needs to be from GW’s perspective, otherwise no-one will buy any of the new range of figures. Epic Armageddon figures sales were terrible due to the fact everyone already had perfectly working armies.
If the rules are half-playable, I’ll almost certainly invest in a new army. The previous FW 6mm Epic stuff was gorgeous, so I've some high hopes if they do a 10mm version.
Just love the new iron circle, they are the first legion dedicated unit that has actually made me want to start a new army just to be able to play them.
Not sure if its just time but I really rather like the Stormbird now. My Thunderhawk doesn't get much use as its a pain on the table so the Stormbird would get even less but I really like it.
Complete disappointment about the timescales for the chaos Warlord, 2 years before they start working on it is too long for me to wait. I'm going to push the button on the order at the end of the month if I can get the new head and claw. Grinding off the imperial eagles, some chains, some tusks and get it painted to match my other Titans, should sort it.
Looky Likey wrote: Just love the new iron circle, they are the first legion dedicated unit that has actually made me want to start a new army just to be able to play them.
Not sure if its just time but I really rather like the Stormbird now. My Thunderhawk doesn't get much use as its a pain on the table so the Stormbird would get even less but I really like it.
Complete disappointment about the timescales for the chaos Warlord, 2 years before they start working on it is too long for me to wait. I'm going to push the button on the order at the end of the month if I can get the new head and claw. Grinding off the imperial eagles, some chains, some tusks and get it painted to match my other Titans, should sort it.
I don't think it will be 2 years before they start working on it, but 2 years before it shows up. Especially with CAD, the core of the Warlord is done. most the changes will be in replacing all the armor plates and some added chaotic detail work. Maybe a tail. And then a chaotic set of weapons. And FW only has so many resources for the big superheavy kits, and the Stormbird is the next "kingpiece" kit coming out.
Thamor wrote: Sorry, my fault. I had just woken up. It's the Autocannon.
Hm. Being limited to the barely-useful-in-30k autocannon is kind of disappointing when the other turrets are so much better, but I guess 110 points for an AV 13 scoring unit with the AC and 3x HBs is not terrible. And now that it's a fast vehicle you can move 6" and shoot all of those guns.
Don't forget that the Predator's autocannon fires four shots, not two.
Looky Likey wrote: Just love the new iron circle, they are the first legion dedicated unit that has actually made me want to start a new army just to be able to play them.
Not sure if its just time but I really rather like the Stormbird now. My Thunderhawk doesn't get much use as its a pain on the table so the Stormbird would get even less but I really like it.
Complete disappointment about the timescales for the chaos Warlord, 2 years before they start working on it is too long for me to wait. I'm going to push the button on the order at the end of the month if I can get the new head and claw. Grinding off the imperial eagles, some chains, some tusks and get it painted to match my other Titans, should sort it.
I don't think it will be 2 years before they start working on it, but 2 years before it shows up. Especially with CAD, the core of the Warlord is done. most the changes will be in replacing all the armor plates and some added chaotic detail work. Maybe a tail. And then a chaotic set of weapons. And FW only has so many resources for the big superheavy kits, and the Stormbird is the next "kingpiece" kit coming out.
I would guess that the Stormbird is just about finished if they are showing off a painted version, they normally only paint the first production copies, at least how that was with the Warlord.
If they give it a tail then it'll be a Banelord? They've been talking up Banelords in some of the recent HH books. I don't really want the Banelord, I don't like the concept of a tail on something that size.
It'll be a lot of work to do it to the same standard as the Chaos Reaver or Warhounds, its a lot more than a simple reskin, especially when you include all the weapon options. I'm done waiting, I've Eldar Phantoms to kill!
Someone linked the Shattered Legion rules in another thread, and holy gak. They get to have all of the positives and their only begative is scoring problems. Halp.
Don't forget that the Predator's autocannon fires four shots, not two.
Even with the 4 shots, autocannons just aren't that useful in 30k due to the rarity of light vehicles and 4+ saves. They are just too middle of the road: you either want something to deal with lots of 3+/2+ saves like plasma or volkite, or something that can reliably blow up a land raider like lascannnons. Not bad against Solar Auxilia and militia, though.
Azreal13 wrote:This is what Dakka looks like when people don't put massive images in spoilers for those of us on mobile platforms. Just sayin.
I've thumbnailed and spolierised the post just for you.
I don't like it when people spoilerise leaked pictures because when I don't want to read EVERY fething post in a news forum I have a tendency to skip over the ones with actual pictures in them if they aren't obvious
Azreal13 wrote:This is what Dakka looks like when people don't put massive images in spoilers for those of us on mobile platforms. Just sayin.
I've thumbnailed and spolierised the post just for you.
I don't like it when people spoilerise leaked pictures because when I don't want to read EVERY fething post in a news forum I have a tendency to skip over the ones with actual pictures in them if they aren't obvious
Hence the thumbnails as I do exactly the same thing (Scroll, scroll, scroll, Picture!, scroll, scroll...)
torgoch wrote: I’m an Epic player (in fact we played NetEpic at my club last Thursday) and while there is an element of sadness that the new game will probably be 10mm in scale, I recognise it needs to be from GW’s perspective, otherwise no-one will buy any of the new range of figures. Epic Armageddon figures sales were terrible due to the fact everyone already had perfectly working armies.
If the rules are half-playable, I’ll almost certainly invest in a new army. The previous FW 6mm Epic stuff was gorgeous, so I've some high hopes if they do a 10mm version.
And it also remains to be seen whether you'll actually need 10mm minis and/or some kind of unique basing in order to play. It may be that two 6mm armies can play under the new rules just fine.
I use to think epic was awesome, but the reason I never played it was because of the scale. I paint all my armies, and to a decent standard, but 6mm was too small for my skill level. If they up it to 10mm that would possibly be better for me and I'll get into the game.
I wonder if they will take the opportunity to sort the scaling issues out? Properly proportioned rhinos to marine size, properly scaled marines to guardsmen etc.
Swampmist wrote: Someone linked the Shattered Legion rules in another thread, and holy gak. They get to have all of the positives and their only begative is scoring problems. Halp.
I dunno. I think having nothing in your army counting as a denial unit is a pretty big deal.
torgoch wrote: I’m an Epic player (in fact we played NetEpic at my club last Thursday) and while there is an element of sadness that the new game will probably be 10mm in scale, I recognise it needs to be from GW’s perspective, otherwise no-one will buy any of the new range of figures. Epic Armageddon figures sales were terrible due to the fact everyone already had perfectly working armies.
If the rules are half-playable, I’ll almost certainly invest in a new army. The previous FW 6mm Epic stuff was gorgeous, so I've some high hopes if they do a 10mm version.
Here's the issue though; that was more than a decade ago. Lots of those folk who had perfectly working armies have moved on from the hobby by now, or split those armies up and sold them to a few dozen other people as small lots on ebay, so there's really very little reason to assume the same issue would arise again.
Meanwhile, as someone who mostly missed out on Epic the first time around, I am far, far less enthusiastic about a 10mm+ version because a bigger scale defeats the purpose; mass warfare. Even just fixing the relative scales of models within the 6mm framework would have seen a lot of the superheavies and Titans get significantly bigger, pushing the whole game up at least one size will destroy much of the appeal of the system, ie the gameplay. 6mm allows you to collect a huge army, one that looks impressive on the table and allows you to properly represent the spectacle of the setting, while still allowing enough space on a standard 6x4 or 8x4 gaming table that tactics and unit maneuver have some real meaning. Epic was a system that let you win by your wits rather than with a calculator and an army list, if you bump up the scale then you leave players with only two choices; 1. collect a numerically smaller army, thus losing the sense of spectacle, you make Epic less epic; or 2. cram the same numbers of models that are all individually bigger into the same table space and end up with a situation like modern Apocalypse which pretty much just involves lining up and shooting until one side or the other is dead.
The latter option might be fun as an occasional "get your mates 'round, get hammered, and push your oversized 40K collections around for a few hours" affair, but it's not what I want from an Epic reboot that I had hoped would become a staple game. I suppose the former has some utility if you want to play 40K at a sensible scale, but that's what it would be; a large 40K game with a more sensible ratio of models to table space. It wouldn't be Epic.
We'll have to see, perhaps we'll get a self-contained boxed game that's worthwhile independent of anything else, or they'll manage to make mini-40K-not-Epic fun enough it's worth playing(which will probably be a death sentence for it, since unlike GW's paranoia that the old SGs were eating in to 40K sales that sort of game definitely would). It's just a shame, I'd actually allowed the rumoured semi-autonomous nature of the new division and the involvement of FW people to override my normal callus of cynicism, but putting short-termist greed(or even, if anyone actually buys that excuse, infantry model detail in a system that's supposed to represent war on a scale that individuals are irrelevant) ahead of the gameplay doesn't just make nu-Epic less appealing, it makes me less enthused about the whole nu-SG enterprise.
I really wish I had the time to get into 30k, but I can't really justify it alongside playing 40k :\
I mean, I could use my Daemons that I already own, but from what I understand they basically just play the same as 40k Daemons, which is to say, all that would change for me would be the opponents.
If they go for the old style multibases the individual infantry on one could move to 10mm scale and still fit in the same footprint, (looking at the old 6mm scale stuff it was rather wide for it's height probably to minimise breakage)
although that assumes plastic rather than resin for the small stuff
as you said the other stuff was bound to get bigger no matter what as it was all too small
As the owner of huge squat, Tyranid, Eldar and necrons epic armies I really don't welcome a scale change.
If its 6mm then sure, I'll add more and maybe start another army or 2.
But if its a different scale then I'll be back on eBay and GW make nothing from me instead.
Jackal wrote: As the owner of huge squat, Tyranid, Eldar and necrons epic armies I really don't welcome a scale change.
If its 6mm then sure, I'll add more and maybe start another army or 2.
But if its a different scale then I'll be back on eBay and GW make nothing from me instead.
Change of scale = Epic Fail!
Who are they hoping to sell this to? If you don't play Epic already then 6 - 10 mm should make relatively little difference, with as pointed out above some people seeing the benefits of the smaller scale. If you are already invested then a change of scale will be a deal breaker for many.
Way to alienate a whole bunch of potential customers! This would change me from totally excited and ready to buy new stuff to an active opponent of any new game. "Sure I'll totally buy all my armies again in 10mm, now you're absolutely not going to change your mind and switch to 15 mm in a couple of years are you?"
I just spent 3 years painstakingly putting together 4 Epic: Armageddon armies from eBay leftovers, third party models, and my own 3d prints. I've finally gotten two friends into it too and they've each assembled an army.
I've been looking forward to this release with some trepidation. I figured even if they screw up the rules, at least I can keep using NetEA and pick up a few models to fill gaps in my lists (or even start that Chaos marine army I've been planning if they get better sculpts).
If they switch to 10mm though, I won't even bother looking at the rules, much less the models. Far too much time and money invested now, so they'll most definitely lose any and all sales my group would have given. What's worse, something stupid like this would only result in fracturing the already small and fractured existing player base, probably killing fan Epic and strangling their new game in its infancy all at the same time.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: I just spent 3 years painstakingly putting together 4 Epic: Armageddon armies from eBay leftovers, third party models, and my own 3d prints. I've finally gotten two friends into it too and they've each assembled an army.
I've been looking forward to this release with some trepidation. I figured even if they screw up the rules, at least I can keep using NetEA and pick up a few models to fill gaps in my lists (or even start that Chaos marine army I've been planning if they get better sculpts).
If they switch to 10mm though, I won't even bother looking at the rules, much less the models. Far too much time and money invested now, so they'll most definitely lose any and all sales my group would have given. What's worse, something stupid like this would only result in fracturing the already small and fractured existing player base, probably killing fan Epic and strangling their new game in its infancy all at the same time.
I personally don't see why you couldn't just play with the new rules but use your current collection of models. It's only 4mm difference.
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: I just spent 3 years painstakingly putting together 4 Epic: Armageddon armies from eBay leftovers, third party models, and my own 3d prints. I've finally gotten two friends into it too and they've each assembled an army.
I've been looking forward to this release with some trepidation. I figured even if they screw up the rules, at least I can keep using NetEA and pick up a few models to fill gaps in my lists (or even start that Chaos marine army I've been planning if they get better sculpts).
If they switch to 10mm though, I won't even bother looking at the rules, much less the models. Far too much time and money invested now, so they'll most definitely lose any and all sales my group would have given. What's worse, something stupid like this would only result in fracturing the already small and fractured existing player base, probably killing fan Epic and strangling their new game in its infancy all at the same time.
From what I have read the reboot will focus more on titans rather than a entire army, bigger titan models means they can charge more, in addition they want to generate sales; so invalidating the old range of models is a easy way to make sure anyone who is interested in the game again wont use the secondary market on release.
zedmeister wrote: There's only one thing I want to say when I heard that Epic won't return in 6mm...
Spoiler:
Wait, is there confirmation of this? I was just browsing this thread for images, and saw this post... Where is the proof they wont be doing Epic in 6mm?
I just spent 3 years painstakingly putting together 4 Epic: Armageddon armies from eBay leftovers, third party models, and my own 3d prints. I've finally gotten two friends into it too and they've each assembled an army.
I've been looking forward to this release with some trepidation. I figured even if they screw up the rules, at least I can keep using NetEA and pick up a few models to fill gaps in my lists (or even start that Chaos marine army I've been planning if they get better sculpts).
If they switch to 10mm though, I won't even bother looking at the rules, much less the models. Far too much time and money invested now, so they'll most definitely lose any and all sales my group would have given. What's worse, something stupid like this would only result in fracturing the already small and fractured existing player base, probably killing fan Epic and strangling their new game in its infancy all at the same time.
From what I have read the reboot will focus more on titans rather than a entire army, bigger titan models means they can charge more, in addition they want to generate sales; so invalidating the old range of models is a easy way to make sure anyone who is interested in the game again wont use the secondary market on release.
Oh, I get it. I just think it's cynical and short-sighted. They have a ready to go fan base for this game, but they'll get precious few converts if they invalidate everyone's existing forces. I'm not redoing my armies and terrain, and at that rate why even use the new rules? There would be zero crossover with new players due to scale difference, and the current rules work fine.
And yes, 6mm to 10mm is a big enough difference to matter. It's like asking why people don't mix and match 20mm and 28mm models. Maybe the rules are scale agnostic, but again, if there's no crossover with new blood and the old rules work fine, why switch?
Whether it's a full reboot or just Adeptus Titanicus, they're cutting off their nose to spite their face. The market for old Epic models is vanishingly small and the quality of those models is extremely inferior compared to what could be done these days. Making the models compatible would hardly put a dent in their sales and would bring most existing Epic players into the fold immediately.
zedmeister wrote: There's only one thing I want to say when I heard that Epic won't return in 6mm...
Spoiler:
Wait, is there confirmation of this? I was just browsing this thread for images, and saw this post... Where is the proof they wont be doing Epic in 6mm?
reported by people who talked to the FW staff at the open day
If the new rules aren't scale dependent, or are easily converted to 6mm, I may end up just sticking with what I've got. That's if the new rules are better than the choices we have floating around now...depressing news nonetheless, I cant afford to start a collection over from scratch, especially if most of it will be Forgeworld...
I own a 95% complete space marine chapter for epic. That totally wouldn't stop me buying new models when released if in 6mm scale. Indeed there are a lot of new units which never appeared in epic. Release models of those and I'll get enough for the whole chapter.
Release those new units in another scale, I'm very unlikely to buy them.
As I said if it's just some elements then it could work. If infantry stays the same on the same size bases, but titans are much bigger, when then I'll just buy a lot of new titans. Replace everything, and it's suddenly a huge leapt for me to buy into the game.
Epic always had a bit of a weird scaling, if anything infantry was a bit big compared to tanks, flyers were far to small (forgeworld stuff was much larger) titans were never big enough. There's no way 100 men were garrisoned in the leg of an imperator like the fluff suggested. Addressing this issue with a new edition is fine. Change for changes sake is just coursing problems.
torgoch wrote: I’m an Epic player (in fact we played NetEpic at my club last Thursday) and while there is an element of sadness that the new game will probably be 10mm in scale, I recognise it needs to be from GW’s perspective, otherwise no-one will buy any of the new range of figures. Epic Armageddon figures sales were terrible due to the fact everyone already had perfectly working armies.
If the rules are half-playable, I’ll almost certainly invest in a new army. The previous FW 6mm Epic stuff was gorgeous, so I've some high hopes if they do a 10mm version.
Here's the issue though; that was more than a decade ago. Lots of those folk who had perfectly working armies have moved on from the hobby by now, or split those armies up and sold them to a few dozen other people as small lots on ebay, so there's really very little reason to assume the same issue would arise again.
Actually, experience says the opposite. When Epic Armageddon was released, everybody and their brother's cousin's sister's nephew dug out their old Epic stuff and put it up on eBay. Due to all the competition, prices were so cheap that people gladly bought old models because they couldn't justify GW's idiotic prices. The lack of new sculpts in the 6mm plastics didn't help any because there were literally bucketloads of that stuff being offered on eBay.
Tamereth wrote: I own a 95% complete space marine chapter for epic. That totally wouldn't stop me buying new models when released if in 6mm scale. Indeed there are a lot of new units which never appeared in epic. Release models of those and I'll get enough for the whole chapter.
Release those new units in another scale, I'm very unlikely to buy them.
As I said if it's just some elements then it could work. If infantry stays the same on the same size bases, but titans are much bigger, when then I'll just buy a lot of new titans. Replace everything, and it's suddenly a huge leapt for me to buy into the game.
Epic always had a bit of a weird scaling, if anything infantry was a bit big compared to tanks, flyers were far to small (forgeworld stuff was much larger) titans were never big enough. There's no way 100 men were garrisoned in the leg of an imperator like the fluff suggested. Addressing this issue with a new edition is fine. Change for changes sake is just coursing problems.
I agree with everything you said in this post 100%. I have a similar sized collection, though scattered over several factions. It is GW though, so change for change's sake could just be par for the course. We saw what they did with Dreadfleet...
I think it's probable folk will just have to accept that, regardless of what they choose to call it, this will not actually be a revival of Epic but rather a new game entirely - "Apocalypse: Sensible Scale Edition", essentially.
Whether that will work out for them I don't know, but it seems evident that the new SG group have decided to adopt GW-proper's "Vets? What do animal doctors have to do with anything?" attitude, so they're not going to change course even if opposition to a scale change was universal, which of course it will not be.
EDIT: Actually Sinful, making it a Heresy-era game, at least to start with, is probably the only reason I'd buy in. Of course, they'd probably consider my reason for buying in a bad thing - collecting and playing a full-sized Heresy army in 10mm would, if they have any sense at all, be much cheaper and more engaging gameplay-wise than doing the present slightly ludicrous semi-fixed-40K-at-3-to-5k-points thing, so I could do that instead of spending thousands of pounds and years of hobby time building a 30K army.
I just spent 3 years painstakingly putting together 4 Epic: Armageddon armies from eBay leftovers, third party models, and my own 3d prints. I've finally gotten two friends into it too and they've each assembled an army.
I've been looking forward to this release with some trepidation. I figured even if they screw up the rules, at least I can keep using NetEA and pick up a few models to fill gaps in my lists (or even start that Chaos marine army I've been planning if they get better sculpts).
If they switch to 10mm though, I won't even bother looking at the rules, much less the models. Far too much time and money invested now, so they'll most definitely lose any and all sales my group would have given. What's worse, something stupid like this would only result in fracturing the already small and fractured existing player base, probably killing fan Epic and strangling their new game in its infancy all at the same time.
From what I have read the reboot will focus more on titans rather than a entire army, bigger titan models means they can charge more, in addition they want to generate sales; so invalidating the old range of models is a easy way to make sure anyone who is interested in the game again wont use the secondary market on release.
Oh, I get it. I just think it's cynical and short-sighted. They have a ready to go fan base for this game, but they'll get precious few converts if they invalidate everyone's existing forces. I'm not redoing my armies and terrain, and at that rate why even use the new rules? There would be zero crossover with new players due to scale difference, and the current rules work fine.
And yes, 6mm to 10mm is a big enough difference to matter. It's like asking why people don't mix and match 20mm and 28mm models. Maybe the rules are scale agnostic, but again, if there's no crossover with new blood and the old rules work fine, why switch?
Whether it's a full reboot or just Adeptus Titanicus, they're cutting off their nose to spite their face. The market for old Epic models is vanishingly small and the quality of those models is extremely inferior compared to what could be done these days. Making the models compatible would hardly put a dent in their sales and would bring most existing Epic players into the fold immediately.
I never played the orginal epic, since many people perfered Necromunda and mordhiem since it used existing terrian, or Battle Fleet Gothic were terrian was super easy to make. No one wanted to play epic because of the investment of time and money into collecting a new scale of terrian.
But 10mm scale much closer to Z-gauge in model railroad building. Z-gague buildings are super common, and super cheap. Plus they already come pre-painted. This is the reason why alot of modren games like "Dropzone Commander" and "Firestorm: Planet Fall" use the 10mm scale. If GW dosen't bump the scale up to 10mm, I actually wouldn't even consider getting into the game and would rather Dropzone or Planet Fall since collecting terrian for these games is much easier.
Is it confirmed as 10mm yet? It's just not 6mm so that means it could even be 8mm and not match any other scales out there already. If they are focusing on Titans this might not be such a big deal.
Zwan1One wrote: Is it confirmed as 10mm yet? It's just not 6mm so that means it could even be 8mm and not match any other scales out there already. If they are focusing on Titans this might not be such a big deal.
No scale has been confirmed. Just that it will be a different scale.
I'm not surprised by the change. When they made the Epic miniatures the different classes were made to different scale. The infantry was 6mm (1/285) but by GWs own admission the vehicles were 1/300, the aircraft were 1/350, the Titan were closer to 1/400. My guess is that in this era of better plastic technology and bigger plastic kits they will be remaking them to the same common scale. An Emperor Titan properly scaled to 10mm would be closer to a 40k Imperial Knight, a warlord like a 40k dreadknight, etc... It's a lot more exciting that way and accentuates GWs advantage as the number one manufacturer. GW's mantra as a miniature company will keep them from making anything that's too blobby like 6mm was.
smurfORnot wrote: Does that domitar that was sold have same rules as those iron warrior body guard domitar? Or is he mechanicum unit?
The Domitar (arm gun guy) is out of the Mechanicum Red Book, the Domitar-Ferrum (hammer and shield guy) is out of Book 6, and their stats and wargear are slightly different, so they're not interchangeable.
Oh yeah, now I remember. They are that new over priced unit that you don't wanna take since it's not really worth points. Pitty, really nice model though.
Zwan1One wrote: Is it confirmed as 10mm yet? It's just not 6mm so that means it could even be 8mm and not match any other scales out there already. If they are focusing on Titans this might not be such a big deal.
No scale has been confirmed. Just that it will be a different scale.
I'm not surprised by the change. When they made the Epic miniatures the different classes were made to different scale. The infantry was 6mm (1/285) but by GWs own admission the vehicles were 1/300, the aircraft were 1/350, the Titan were closer to 1/400. My guess is that in this era of better plastic technology and bigger plastic kits they will be remaking them to the same common scale. An Emperor Titan properly scaled to 10mm would be closer to a 40k Imperial Knight, a warlord like a 40k dreadknight, etc... It's a lot more exciting that way and accentuates GWs advantage as the number one manufacturer. GW's mantra as a miniature company will keep them from making anything that's too blobby like 6mm was.
That is underestimating things a lot. Right now, and Emperor Titan is about Dreadnought sized, and far undersized for 6mm scale. A WArlord is about Ogryn scale, and a Knight is about the same size as an Space Marine. In proper 10mm scale, it's the Warlord, not the Emperor, that will be Knight sized (and rather similar looking, as they took a lot of design cues from the Warlord when updating the old Paladin Knight) A Reaver would be about the size of the Riptide, and a Warhound the size of a Dreadnought. Knights about Centurion sized.
Zwan1One wrote: Is it confirmed as 10mm yet? It's just not 6mm so that means it could even be 8mm and not match any other scales out there already. If they are focusing on Titans this might not be such a big deal.
No scale has been confirmed. Just that it will be a different scale.
I'm not surprised by the change. When they made the Epic miniatures the different classes were made to different scale. The infantry was 6mm (1/285) but by GWs own admission the vehicles were 1/300, the aircraft were 1/350, the Titan were closer to 1/400. My guess is that in this era of better plastic technology and bigger plastic kits they will be remaking them to the same common scale. An Emperor Titan properly scaled to 10mm would be closer to a 40k Imperial Knight, a warlord like a 40k dreadknight, etc... It's a lot more exciting that way and accentuates GWs advantage as the number one manufacturer. GW's mantra as a miniature company will keep them from making anything that's too blobby like 6mm was.
That is underestimating things a lot. Right now, and Emperor Titan is about Dreadnought sized, and far undersized for 6mm scale. A WArlord is about Ogryn scale, and a Knight is about the same size as an Space Marine. In proper 10mm scale, it's the Warlord, not the Emperor, that will be Knight sized (and rather similar looking, as they took a lot of design cues from the Warlord when updating the old Paladin Knight) A Reaver would be about the size of the Riptide, and a Warhound the size of a Dreadnought. Knights about Centurion sized.
I don't see how. A Warlord Titan was roughly 45mm tall, Ogryn size as you say, and was said by GW to be scaled close to 1/400... at 6mm or 1/285 scale its properly 63mm... at 10mm or 1/160 its properly 112.5mm... a 40k Dreadknight is 114.3mm tall while an Imperial Knight is 157.5mm tall.
Zwan1One wrote: Is it confirmed as 10mm yet? It's just not 6mm so that means it could even be 8mm and not match any other scales out there already. If they are focusing on Titans this might not be such a big deal.
No scale has been confirmed. Just that it will be a different scale.
I'm not surprised by the change. When they made the Epic miniatures the different classes were made to different scale. The infantry was 6mm (1/285) but by GWs own admission the vehicles were 1/300, the aircraft were 1/350, the Titan were closer to 1/400. My guess is that in this era of better plastic technology and bigger plastic kits they will be remaking them to the same common scale. An Emperor Titan properly scaled to 10mm would be closer to a 40k Imperial Knight, a warlord like a 40k dreadknight, etc... It's a lot more exciting that way and accentuates GWs advantage as the number one manufacturer. GW's mantra as a miniature company will keep them from making anything that's too blobby like 6mm was.
Which is confusing, because how the hell are they supposed to do an interesting boxed set with a solid value proposition that focuses on Titans when even the smallest will be Dreadnought-sized.
And by the by, 6mm was "blobby" because of GW's design choices and the technology of the day, it's entirely possible to produce pretty fantastic looking 6mm armies when you realise that the equivalent of "a model" in 28mm is not one single 6mm solider, it's a full stand of them all in formation.
Confused by the epic scale stuff. If 40k is 28mm and epic is 6mm, then a 40k knight scaled down would be about 3.2cm and a warlord would be 13cm. That is still quite big. Maybe they are going the other way, making the scale smaller and doing away with infantry all together.
Zwan1One wrote: Is it confirmed as 10mm yet? It's just not 6mm so that means it could even be 8mm and not match any other scales out there already. If they are focusing on Titans this might not be such a big deal.
No scale has been confirmed. Just that it will be a different scale.
I'm not surprised by the change. When they made the Epic miniatures the different classes were made to different scale. The infantry was 6mm (1/285) but by GWs own admission the vehicles were 1/300, the aircraft were 1/350, the Titan were closer to 1/400. My guess is that in this era of better plastic technology and bigger plastic kits they will be remaking them to the same common scale. An Emperor Titan properly scaled to 10mm would be closer to a 40k Imperial Knight, a warlord like a 40k dreadknight, etc... It's a lot more exciting that way and accentuates GWs advantage as the number one manufacturer. GW's mantra as a miniature company will keep them from making anything that's too blobby like 6mm was.
Which is confusing, because how the hell are they supposed to do an interesting boxed set with a solid value proposition that focuses on Titans when even the smallest will be Dreadnought-sized.
And by the by, 6mm was "blobby" because of GW's design choices and the technology of the day, it's entirely possible to produce pretty fantastic looking 6mm armies when you realise that the equivalent of "a model" in 28mm is not one single 6mm solider, it's a full stand of them all in formation.
I think a modern 6mm marine would only have all the detail of a purity seal and still be pretty blobby.
The original Adeptus Titanicus had 6 warlord titans, roughly dreadnought sized. If they cram in anywhere near as much plastic into this box set, they could easily do a pair of larger Warlords, a pair of Reavers, and a pair of warhounds, before they even get around to doing any terrain.
Zwan1One wrote: Is it confirmed as 10mm yet? It's just not 6mm so that means it could even be 8mm and not match any other scales out there already. If they are focusing on Titans this might not be such a big deal.
No scale has been confirmed. Just that it will be a different scale.
I'm not surprised by the change. When they made the Epic miniatures the different classes were made to different scale. The infantry was 6mm (1/285) but by GWs own admission the vehicles were 1/300, the aircraft were 1/350, the Titan were closer to 1/400. My guess is that in this era of better plastic technology and bigger plastic kits they will be remaking them to the same common scale. An Emperor Titan properly scaled to 10mm would be closer to a 40k Imperial Knight, a warlord like a 40k dreadknight, etc... It's a lot more exciting that way and accentuates GWs advantage as the number one manufacturer. GW's mantra as a miniature company will keep them from making anything that's too blobby like 6mm was.
That is underestimating things a lot. Right now, and Emperor Titan is about Dreadnought sized, and far undersized for 6mm scale. A WArlord is about Ogryn scale, and a Knight is about the same size as an Space Marine. In proper 10mm scale, it's the Warlord, not the Emperor, that will be Knight sized (and rather similar looking, as they took a lot of design cues from the Warlord when updating the old Paladin Knight) A Reaver would be about the size of the Riptide, and a Warhound the size of a Dreadnought. Knights about Centurion sized.
I don't see how. A Warlord Titan was roughly 45mm tall, Ogryn size as you say, and was said by GW to be scaled close to 1/400... at 6mm or 1/285 scale its properly 63mm... at 10mm or 1/160 its properly 112.5mm... a 40k Dreadknight is 114.3mm tall while an Imperial Knight is 157.5mm tall.
I was thinking the newer, larger Ogryn models.
The metal lucius warlord model is about 72mm tall, not 45mm. The metal Anvillis is about 62 mm to the top of the carapace, ignoring the weapons. And the FW40K Mars Warlord is just about 500mm tall to the top of the reactor ridges.
For a box set, it depends on the scale chosen and multi-part vs monopose models. I could see a box set at Battle of Calth price point with say a Reaver, 4 Warhounds, and 12 knights. Make one sprue that is a warhound with one of each gun and 3 knights with the various options of the 40K one- battle cannon, melta, gattling, sword or fist, and option for one to take a missile launcher on top. Then a single multi-part reaver that is Riptide/dreadknight sized with all/most the options. Have the sides be 6 knights each, then either a trio of warhounds, or a reaver + warhound. Save the warlord for a larger kit later.
Zwan1One wrote: Is it confirmed as 10mm yet? It's just not 6mm so that means it could even be 8mm and not match any other scales out there already. If they are focusing on Titans this might not be such a big deal.
No scale has been confirmed. Just that it will be a different scale.
I'm not surprised by the change. When they made the Epic miniatures the different classes were made to different scale. The infantry was 6mm (1/285) but by GWs own admission the vehicles were 1/300, the aircraft were 1/350, the Titan were closer to 1/400. My guess is that in this era of better plastic technology and bigger plastic kits they will be remaking them to the same common scale. An Emperor Titan properly scaled to 10mm would be closer to a 40k Imperial Knight, a warlord like a 40k dreadknight, etc... It's a lot more exciting that way and accentuates GWs advantage as the number one manufacturer. GW's mantra as a miniature company will keep them from making anything that's too blobby like 6mm was.
That is underestimating things a lot. Right now, and Emperor Titan is about Dreadnought sized, and far undersized for 6mm scale. A WArlord is about Ogryn scale, and a Knight is about the same size as an Space Marine. In proper 10mm scale, it's the Warlord, not the Emperor, that will be Knight sized (and rather similar looking, as they took a lot of design cues from the Warlord when updating the old Paladin Knight) A Reaver would be about the size of the Riptide, and a Warhound the size of a Dreadnought. Knights about Centurion sized.
I don't see how. A Warlord Titan was roughly 45mm tall, Ogryn size as you say, and was said by GW to be scaled close to 1/400... at 6mm or 1/285 scale its properly 63mm... at 10mm or 1/160 its properly 112.5mm... a 40k Dreadknight is 114.3mm tall while an Imperial Knight is 157.5mm tall.
I was thinking the newer, larger Ogryn models.
The metal lucius warlord model is about 72mm tall, not 45mm. The metal Anvillis is about 62 mm to the top of the carapace, ignoring the weapons. And the FW40K Mars Warlord is just about 500mm tall to the top of the reactor ridges.
For a box set, it depends on the scale chosen and multi-part vs monopose models. I could see a box set at Battle of Calth price point with say a Reaver, 4 Warhounds, and 12 knights. Make one sprue that is a warhound with one of each gun and 3 knights with the various options of the 40K one- battle cannon, melta, gattling, sword or fist, and option for one to take a missile launcher on top. Then a single multi-part reaver that is Riptide/dreadknight sized with all/most the options. Have the sides be 6 knights each, then either a trio of warhounds, or a reaver + warhound. Save the warlord for a larger kit later.
If they go that big, especially if they're not going to bother with infantry, I'll pass. It'll just be another "cram all your luverly expensive models on the table and roll dice 'till one army falls over!" game if you wanted to use a force of any actual size - christ can you imagine trying to use maneuver and tactics on a normal 6x4 table with a dozen Riptide-size models on either side? Ugh.
Yodhrin wrote: ...christ can you imagine trying to use maneuver and tactics on a normal 6x4 table with a dozen Riptide-size models on either side? Ugh.
I think we can safely say that if that happens, we are no longer collecting miniatures. We are effectively collecting puppets. No way around it.
Massive Thanks to GArro at Heresy 30k ( wall of text)
LEGION UPDATES FROM THE NEW LEGION RED BOOK
IF A UNIT IS NOT MENTIONED, THEN IT IS UNCHANGED
Emperor's Children
All models with the LA rule gain +1 initiative on the charge
sonic shriekers are now -1WS to enemy models in base contact which aren't immune to fear. Effects the full length of the combat (not just first round), not just if you charge.
phoenix terminators are WS5
the cacophony weapons are heavy2, previously heavy1
Iron Warriors
iron circle added, elites choice, single unit can be taken as a command squad to perturabo. said unit gains a minor buff of their choice from a list.
tyrant seige terminator squads now heavy support choices
BS5 Iron Havocs
Imperial Fists
phalanx warder squads 'shield wall' rule fixed, now confers +1WS instead of +1I.
dorn's chainsaw has 'unwieldy' replaced with 'reaping blow' (see DG section)
Night Lords
'from the shadows' confers 5+ cover save, use to be 6+
'talent for murder' confers +1 to hit and wound, use to be just to wound
terror squads gain 'precision strike'
sevatar has his additional psyker rules from the FAQ added to his profile, also gains precision strike
Iron Hands
no changes
World eaters
'blood lust' is now on a 4+ rather than a roll of a 1.
previous version of 'incarnate violence' replaced with may re-roll 1's to wound on the turn they charge
Ultramarines
no changes
Death Guard
may re-roll dangerous terrain tests, regardless of what the terrain is
instead of forcing successful rolls to wound with poison and fleshbane, DG get FNP(4+) instead
power scythes lose unwieldy and the ability to replace attack value with number of enemy models in base contact with the following
'reaping blow': -1 initiative, if in base contact with more than one model at their initiative step, they gain +1 attack
grave warden toxin rule replaced with 'poison(3+)' on death cloud and grenade launcher
deathshroud can be taken as a HQ or elites choice, plus as a command squad for a terminator praetor or mortarion.
mortarion's scythe is no longer unwieldy, replaced with 'reaping blow'.
mortarion's witch spite only affects malediction powers affecting him or his squad
Sons of Horus
gain 'death dealer' to their legiones astartes rule, +1BS if shooting at an enemy within 12" with a pistol, rapid fire or assault weapon, doesn't effect snap fire, overwatch or fury of the legion shots.
justearins terminators start off at 255pts for 5 men, may still take upto 7 additional men. they now have 2 wounds
abaddon has precision strike
Word bearers
rules unchanged from tempest
Salamanders
no changes
Raven Guard
Mor deythan are 10pts more expensive at base cost (additional men are still same price)
all dark furies have raven talons by default, no price increase
dark fury sergeant gains 'precision strike'
Kaedes nex gains precision shots
Alpha Legion (or are they?)
saboteur's sabotage attack now AP3 against things with a toughness value, and AP2 against vehicles
headhunters come with combi-bolters as standard, may upgrade them to combi-weapons for the same cost as terminators can.
headhunters replace 'preferred enemy' with 'precision shots'
Sorry for the weird grammar but I've copy-pasted it from a group and that's how it was written.
Well, until we know more later this year no reason to get upset over something we know nothing about beyond a few words mentioned at and event during Q&A
Zwan1One wrote: Is it confirmed as 10mm yet? It's just not 6mm so that means it could even be 8mm and not match any other scales out there already. If they are focusing on Titans this might not be such a big deal.
No scale has been confirmed. Just that it will be a different scale.
I'm not surprised by the change. When they made the Epic miniatures the different classes were made to different scale. The infantry was 6mm (1/285) but by GWs own admission the vehicles were 1/300, the aircraft were 1/350, the Titan were closer to 1/400. My guess is that in this era of better plastic technology and bigger plastic kits they will be remaking them to the same common scale. An Emperor Titan properly scaled to 10mm would be closer to a 40k Imperial Knight, a warlord like a 40k dreadknight, etc... It's a lot more exciting that way and accentuates GWs advantage as the number one manufacturer. GW's mantra as a miniature company will keep them from making anything that's too blobby like 6mm was.
That is underestimating things a lot. Right now, and Emperor Titan is about Dreadnought sized, and far undersized for 6mm scale. A WArlord is about Ogryn scale, and a Knight is about the same size as an Space Marine. In proper 10mm scale, it's the Warlord, not the Emperor, that will be Knight sized (and rather similar looking, as they took a lot of design cues from the Warlord when updating the old Paladin Knight) A Reaver would be about the size of the Riptide, and a Warhound the size of a Dreadnought. Knights about Centurion sized.
I don't see how. A Warlord Titan was roughly 45mm tall, Ogryn size as you say, and was said by GW to be scaled close to 1/400... at 6mm or 1/285 scale its properly 63mm... at 10mm or 1/160 its properly 112.5mm... a 40k Dreadknight is 114.3mm tall while an Imperial Knight is 157.5mm tall.
I was thinking the newer, larger Ogryn models.
The metal lucius warlord model is about 72mm tall, not 45mm. The metal Anvillis is about 62 mm to the top of the carapace, ignoring the weapons. And the FW40K Mars Warlord is just about 500mm tall to the top of the reactor ridges.
For a box set, it depends on the scale chosen and multi-part vs monopose models. I could see a box set at Battle of Calth price point with say a Reaver, 4 Warhounds, and 12 knights. Make one sprue that is a warhound with one of each gun and 3 knights with the various options of the 40K one- battle cannon, melta, gattling, sword or fist, and option for one to take a missile launcher on top. Then a single multi-part reaver that is Riptide/dreadknight sized with all/most the options. Have the sides be 6 knights each, then either a trio of warhounds, or a reaver + warhound. Save the warlord for a larger kit later.
Not to clog up this thread with more discussion of scale, but you guys are all over the place with your numbers. A Reaver titan is listed at 22.3 meters high on Lexicanum. Proper 6mm scale is about 1:300. So that would make a Reaver about 7.4cm tall, about the height of a SM dreadnought. This is slightly taller than FW's old Epic Reaver, but not Riptide sized by any stretch of the imagination (FW's aircraft were always bang-on 1:300, but their titans skewed smaller for whatever reason).
A Warlord is listed at 33m tall, which becomes 11.0cm at 1:300 scale. That's almost exactly Riptide sized.
Going by the height of the 28mm models is always going to be a problem, as they're already completely screwed up in scale. There's no consistency between vehicles (hell, no consistency within a single model, with all the distorted dimensions GW loves).
Edit to get this slightly more on topic: I'm glad I waited to buy a red book now. Does that include all the rules you'd need to run any of the legions, or is there still stuff scattered throughout other books you need to reference?
CalgarsPimpHand wrote: I'm glad I waited to buy a red book now. Does that include all the rules you'd need to run any of the legions, or is there still stuff scattered throughout other books you need to reference?
Aye, same here - If they are all within the same book, that would be awesome!
SickSix wrote: Well that's disappointing. Instead of harkening back to the old artwork they just made the Stormbird a 'super Thunderhawk'.
This style Stormbird is a pattern in between the Stormbird and the Thunderhawk, I forget the pattern name, but it only carries half the troops and vehicles of the Stormbird, but I think an actual stormbird would be far too large to ever play on a table with. Being able to carry a full marine company...It would be more than a objective on the table, it would be the whole table itself.
