Don't mind that. Would probably look better without the shoulder pads and the studio colour scheme once again fails to do the models justice but, if we're going down the techno-armoured route rather than 'classic' padded jerkin squats (opinions on that choice in of itself may vary...), then this is at least a nice representation of that in my opinion.

Huh, they look even more like Terran Marines.
I guess GW has gone full circle and ripped off Blizzard after Blizzard ripped off GW

I don't like the heads. I get that they should look small because of the armour, but it still doesn't look good. They should all have helmets, or at least a built in helmet thing with the visor raised up so you can see their face.
Kind of like Terran marines, oddly enough. If you're going to copy Blizzard, might as well go the extra mile.

Edit : They actually have what I suggested.


They should all look like that really.

Honestly, the studio scheme would work...if they added a bit of weathering.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Mini-Terminators!

When it comes to protecting their all-important Ancestor Cores, the Leagues of Votann demand no less than the very best weapons and armour around. The honoured warriors who wield them are true elites, wading into battle clad in servo-assisted exo-armour, carrying a name that commands respect from all Kin – the Einhyr Hearthguard.

Selected from the most accomplished fighters in a Kinhold, the Einhyr Hearthguard have many roles – from bodyguards to deadly first-strike troops. Each Hearthguard has proved themselves over many years of front-line combat, ascending purely by the virtue of their deeds, just as the staunch meritocracy of the Leagues requires.

Like Hearthkyn Warriors, Hearthguard are dependable fighters, but their experience and inch-thick battle plating take the Kins’ natural durability to a whole new level. Crack units of Einhyr Hearthguard can be trusted to hold the line and inspire their fellows to stand firm even in the face of untold horrors.
They aren’t all take and no give, either. Each Einhyr is equipped with a Volkanite Disintegrator and a shoulder-mounted grenade launcher, laying down a solid curtain of fire as they advance. Once the Einhyr Hearthguard join the melee, they’re just as formidable, lashing out with devastating concussion gauntlets.

These marvels use ancient technologies to increase the mass of a warrior’s fist as they swing, turning an already burly uppercut into an earth-shattering blow that can lift a hulking Ork right off their feet. Those who prefer the deftness of a sword over the raw power of their gauntlets can fit a thrumming plasma blade to their wrist, perfect for slicing and dicing the galaxy’s less damage resistant dangers.

There’s plenty more to see from the Leagues of Votann, so stay tuned to Warhammer Community for even more reveals. You might be waiting a while for details from your own local Votann – they can get a bit slow in the summer months – so get to the front of the information queue by signing up to our newsletter and having every new tidbit beamed straight into your inbox.

Bringing it over to the next page!

They had me at Volkite Disintegrators.

CHOOOOOM!

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Huh, they look even more like Terran Marines.
I guess GW has gone full circle and ripped off Blizzard after Blizzard ripped off GW

I don't like the heads. I get that they should look small because of the armour, but it still doesn't look good. They should all have helmets, or at least a built in helmet thing with the visor raised up so you can see their face.
Kind of like Terran marines, oddly enough. If you're going to copy Blizzard, might as well go the extra mile.

I don't see what Great Crusade era Astartes from Terra have to do with this

I think they look awesome. I've never been a fan of this teal colour scheme but I guarantee they will look very cool in a dark red. I really like the dwarfy designs in the chest piece. I think I'd convert up like a fishbowl helmet for them. The scarring on the theyns brows is a cool touch.

Also, shoulder mounted grenade launchers? Excellent. Love everything about that.

So an entire squad of Turbo-Terminators, each with a Volkite-but-better gun?

I like

(well expect for the plasma blades, but they sound like they'll be a bit you can choose not to add, and the lack of helmets)

That’s…..that’s not scarring…that’s Demiurg

 Olthannon wrote:
I think they look awesome. I've never been a fan of this teal colour scheme but I guarantee they will look very cool in a dark red. I really like the dwarfy designs in the chest piece. I think I'd convert up like a fishbowl helmet for them. The scarring on the theyns brows is a cool touch.

Also, shoulder mounted grenade launchers? Excellent. Love everything about that.

I like the shoulder mounted launchers too. Give them jump packs and they'd be proper Heinlein Space Marines.

I have never seen a single more Starcraft model from Games Workshop in my life

This is going to be expensive!!!

Superb minis! I want them all so far.

So here are the dwarfy runes people have been crying for. Personally I feel they would look better without them. I'm also not a fan of the massive shoulder pads, makes then look too much like space marines. Otherwise they're nice.

But why is one of them a Klingon?

Concussion Gauntlets are just Power Fists guys, stop trying so hard. And seem pretty redundant if they've always got a sword attached or they're holding a power hammer, but whatever.

They look pretty good IMO, save for the grenade launchers glued on the top. Big "I've got a Rhino with a hundred boltguns glued on as part of the 2nd ed vehicle design rules" energy. I assume they were a last minute design decision.

 Crimson wrote:
So here are the dwarfy runes people have been crying for. Personally I feel they would look better without them. I'm also not a fan of the massive shoulder pads, makes then look too much like space marines. Otherwise they're nice.

But why is one of them a Klingon?

Because that's how the Demiurg (SUPPOSEDLY, one of the alien races allied with the T'au) look like. Which, together with the fact T'au are blatantly lugging around Squat technology, kind of confirms that the "Demiurg" are just the Votann's alternate identity for when they want to blatantly collaborate with Imperium's mortal enemies and everyone is too dumb to figure it out.

Heads look awful. Is it the sculpts, the paint job or both? They look comically tiny. Hope they get helmeted options.

Starcraft vibes...

Those are pretty cool. Feels both familiar and unique at the same time, like a Dwarf version of a Terminator (which I guess is what they are).

Not entirely sure on the heads or helmets though, would have been nice to have a bit more of a unique helmet than what appears to be the Hearthkin one again.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
I have never seen a single more Starcraft model from Games Workshop in my life

We said a similar thing about Star Craft back in '98, that it looked heavily inspired by 40K.

I'd like the duckbill full face version from the necromunda squat kit, but you only get one per box

so i'll have to hope one of the 3d printers makes a copy or look a like

I like how compared to the Kyn, these folk feel like professional soldiers, compared to the feel of a militia.

Yes the armour still has level of gilding, but first and foremost it’s practical. It looks like it can move (compare to the very silly original Exo-Armour)

Terran Squats, meh. Also the runes make them not useful for anything else.

Fine miniatures. I can't wait to listen to 15 pages of bickering about why they're dogshit and a sign that GW is ruined, as usual.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Because that's how the Demiurg (SUPPOSEDLY, one of the alien races allied with the T'au) look like. Which, together with the fact T'au are blatantly lugging around Squat technology, kind of confirms that the "Demiurg" are just the Votann's alternate identity for when they want to blatantly collaborate with Imperium's mortal enemies and everyone is too dumb to figure it out.

The Tau don't even fit on the top 20 list of the Imperium's mortal enemies. And the #11 on that list is "the Imperium".

What is this...thing ? Oh good lord I can't anymore ! Every single release is even worse than the previous one. It's a non stop flow of failures. Is it a joke, to make people regret having asked for the return of the squats ?

 godardc wrote:
What is this...thing ? Oh good lord I can't anymore ! Every single release is even worse than the previous one. It's a non stop flow of failures. Is it a joke, to make people regret having asked for the return of the squats ?

In what way?

GW: "Space marines sell well. How can we sell more space marines without cannibalizing exisitng marines sales?"

IMO these are super uninspired models. But to each their own.

 Crimson wrote:
So here are the dwarfy runes people have been crying for. Personally I feel they would look better without them. I'm also not a fan of the massive shoulder pads, makes then look too much like space marines. Otherwise they're nice.

But why is one of them a Klingon?

If you had tech that good, you would kling-on to it too...


I'll see myself out.

So did they just, like, grab some Starcraft marine STLs off thingiverse and shrunk the Z axis, or...?

 godardc wrote:
What is this...thing ? Oh good lord I can't anymore ! Every single release is even worse than the previous one. It's a non stop flow of failures. Is it a joke, to make people regret having asked for the return of the squats ?

At this rate, Leagues players will be able to win tournaments by default, since the sight of their army drives drama-queen oldbeards like this godardc specimen here into comical excesses of performative loathing culminating, it can only be hoped, in self-immolation.

Helmets. That's all I want. Really, just _a_ helmet. Show me someone understands the concept, and doesn't just want to die despite battleship strength armor plate.

----
Also, that horse icon raises questions... and now I want Votann clone-cavalry, just to show that they grasp the concept of horses.

I love them. Like a combination between primaris, gravis, and a bit of starcraft marines. Blizzard has become a steaming pile of vile manure lately so this is a nice bit of Karma that has been a long time coming and is well deserved.

Although I suppose not full Karma, for that the Age of Sigmar MMO that is being worked on needs to gobble up the WoW customer base, and a potential Total War 40k needs to eat the starcraft base, although that is admittedly a less direct 1:1 since it wouldnt be an rts.

Also this should probably be a well learned lesson for some not to jump the gun on crying about dwarfiness lol.

That armour looks so very much Van Saar... I order if that will be tied to the STCs they share.

It as been rather obvious since the primaris that gw is ripping off hard the designs of Starcraft2, but god damn thos exo armors are pushing hard, especially with that helmet.

 (HN) wrote:
It as been rather obvious since the primaris that gw is ripping off hard the designs of Starcraft2, but god damn thos exo armors are pushing hard, especially with that helmet.

Having an astronaut/flight suit inspired helmet is ripping off Starcraft 2?

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I like

(well expect for the plasma blades, but they sound like they'll be a bit you can choose not to add, and the lack of helmets)

Voss wrote:
Helmets. That's all I want. Really, just _a_ helmet. Show me someone understands the concept, and doesn't just want to die despite battleship strength armor plate.

----
Also, that horse icon raises questions... and now I want Votann clone-cavalry, just to show that they grasp the concept of horses.

If it reassures you any, the social media accounts confirmed in a couple places that they do come with helmets. They said the helmets are similar in appearance to these (top-left).

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 (HN) wrote:
It as been rather obvious since the primaris that gw is ripping off hard the designs of Starcraft2, but god damn thos exo armors are pushing hard, especially with that helmet.

Having an astronaut/flight suit inspired helmet is ripping off Starcraft 2?

Mate. The big ol' shoulderpads, the overall proportions, the chunkiness of the gauntlets, the almost identical shape of the helmet...

I like the new models with the starcraft asthetic. I think that they should have made a small egg shaped robocompanion like the tau with their drones or the CAT for Space Hulk as an homage to the originals.

 Scottywan82 wrote:

Voss wrote:
Helmets. That's all I want. Really, just _a_ helmet. Show me someone understands the concept, and doesn't just want to die despite battleship strength armor plate.

----
Also, that horse icon raises questions... and now I want Votann clone-cavalry, just to show that they grasp the concept of horses.

If it reassures you any, the social media accounts confirmed in a couple places that they do come with helmets.

Good news then. Im expecting these coming packed with extra bits.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Scottywan82 wrote:

Voss wrote:
Helmets. That's all I want. Really, just _a_ helmet. Show me someone understands the concept, and doesn't just want to die despite battleship strength armor plate.

----
Also, that horse icon raises questions... and now I want Votann clone-cavalry, just to show that they grasp the concept of horses.

If it reassures you any, the social media accounts confirmed in a couple places that they do come with helmets.

Good news then. Im expecting these coming packed with extra bits.

I certainly hope so. I generally have hesitations now about their social media group after everything that happened around Warhammer Quest Cursed City, but I will keep my fingers crossed.

I really wonder what the reason for the animal banner thing is. If it's just a culture thing I'd have assumed something like different visages of the Votann instead considering that's even built into their architecture.

Pretty meh on these, mostly for the lack of helmets and the humongous and oddly shaped shoulder pads. And the color scheme, as usual, but at least that's not going to be a problem.

 Scottywan82 wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Scottywan82 wrote:

Voss wrote:
Helmets. That's all I want. Really, just _a_ helmet. Show me someone understands the concept, and doesn't just want to die despite battleship strength armor plate.

----
Also, that horse icon raises questions... and now I want Votann clone-cavalry, just to show that they grasp the concept of horses.

If it reassures you any, the social media accounts confirmed in a couple places that they do come with helmets.

Good news then. Im expecting these coming packed with extra bits.

I certainly hope so. I generally have hesitations now about their social media group after everything that happened around Warhammer Quest Cursed City, but I will keep my fingers crossed.

It's fair to be wary but providing head options is one thing GW is consistently good at. I expect that the kit will allow you to make a fully helmeted squad even without social media team assurances. That's a standard we can reasonably expect from GW.

 Geifer wrote:
Pretty meh on these, mostly for the lack of helmets and the humongous and oddly shaped shoulder pads. And the color scheme, as usual, but at least that's not going to be a problem.

 Scottywan82 wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Scottywan82 wrote:

Voss wrote:
Helmets. That's all I want. Really, just _a_ helmet. Show me someone understands the concept, and doesn't just want to die despite battleship strength armor plate.

----
Also, that horse icon raises questions... and now I want Votann clone-cavalry, just to show that they grasp the concept of horses.

If it reassures you any, the social media accounts confirmed in a couple places that they do come with helmets.

Good news then. Im expecting these coming packed with extra bits.

I certainly hope so. I generally have hesitations now about their social media group after everything that happened around Warhammer Quest Cursed City, but I will keep my fingers crossed.

It's fair to be wary but providing head options is one thing GW is consistently good at. I expect that the kit will allow you to make a fully helmeted squad even without social media team assurances. That's a standard we can reasonably expect from GW.

Most other armies have helmets as the default head option with the non-helmeted as a secondary thing though, it seems like it might be going the other way around for the Leagues.

Honestly I don't care which heads GW prefers to show off as long as all the options are on the sprues. Once the kits are in the customers' hands, it really makes no difference.

It's kind of understandable to show the new Squats without helmets given they supposed to be clones. If they were a faceless horde, you might get the impression that they're the other kind of clones that all look the same instead of individualistic ones created from a deep and varied DNA pool whose purpose is to emphasize specific traits rather than to create exact copies.

These look ace. The nods to existing tech is cracking, the leg armour segments mirroring the ad mech robots for example, the marine bits, gravis like bits, all good. Familiar but new.

Yes it looks like that star craft thing but that as others said is clearly looking like a marine in a lot of ways and has also robbed off numerous mech designs that GW has also pilfered from. It’s cyclical inspiration (or robbing).

All in all I am impressed. Now, show me more vehicles.

Really like the Hearthkyn, immediately made me think of SC2 Firebats/Marauders with swords.

Which is a good thing.

derpherp wrote:
Also this should probably be a well learned lesson for some not to jump the gun on crying about dwarfiness lol.

If you're referring to a few pages ago, it was and still is an issue with the Infantry that had been revealed previously. More models being revealed now that are better with that side of things hasn't solved the problem with those other miniatures.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 (HN) wrote:
It as been rather obvious since the primaris that gw is ripping off hard the designs of Starcraft2, but god damn thos exo armors are pushing hard, especially with that helmet.

Having an astronaut/flight suit inspired helmet is ripping off Starcraft 2?

Mate. The big ol' shoulderpads, the overall proportions, the chunkiness of the gauntlets, the almost identical shape of the helmet...

I thought that for a bit, but then I saw this picture:

Those chunky shoulder pads are from the OG squat models 100%. The sword and gun is too. The segmented boots. Possibly even the domed head. Also firebats don't have hands, so I dunno what you are on about with gauntlets. The proportions are different too, smaller feet and "hands".

derpherp wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 (HN) wrote:
It as been rather obvious since the primaris that gw is ripping off hard the designs of Starcraft2, but god damn thos exo armors are pushing hard, especially with that helmet.

Having an astronaut/flight suit inspired helmet is ripping off Starcraft 2?

Mate. The big ol' shoulderpads, the overall proportions, the chunkiness of the gauntlets, the almost identical shape of the helmet...

I thought that for a bit, but then I saw this picture:

Those chunky shoulder pads are from the OG squat models 100%. The sword and gun is too. The segmented boots. Possibly even the domed head. Also firebats don't have hands, so I dunno what you are on about with gauntlets. The proportions are different too, smaller feet and "hands".

Try the standard terrain marine







The gun looks nothing like the gun on the old squat model. It looks more like the gun from Starcraft 2.
The shoulder pads look more like the marines' than the old model too, which are flatter.

Yeah... seeing that as more similar to the RT era egg than the starcraft marine is very surprising. No one is saying that it's a direct copy but rather very reminiscent of it. I'd say a 3d printed Raynor would be pretty much at home in a squat army if you adjusted his proportions to 85-90% on the z-axis (height).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And finally the trifecta is complete and we can have a three way battle between the Terrans, Protoss, and Zerg in Kill Team. It's a good time to be alive!

derpherp wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 (HN) wrote:
It as been rather obvious since the primaris that gw is ripping off hard the designs of Starcraft2, but god damn thos exo armors are pushing hard, especially with that helmet.

Having an astronaut/flight suit inspired helmet is ripping off Starcraft 2?

Mate. The big ol' shoulderpads, the overall proportions, the chunkiness of the gauntlets, the almost identical shape of the helmet...

I thought that for a bit, but then I saw this picture:

Those chunky shoulder pads are from the OG squat models 100%. The sword and gun is too. The segmented boots. Possibly even the domed head. Also firebats don't have hands, so I dunno what you are on about with gauntlets. The proportions are different too, smaller feet and "hands".

By the gauntlets comment I meant their big ol' chunky fists giving their arms a similar silhouette to the Marauder's big chunky gun hands. And speaking of hands, the arrangement of the sword also heavily reminds me of SC2's Mira's Marauders. The feet are smaller indeed, but their legs are also similarly short and stubby compared to their big chunky torso and arms, similar like with the Marauders.

 NAVARRO wrote:

 Scottywan82 wrote:

Voss wrote:
Helmets. That's all I want. Really, just _a_ helmet. Show me someone understands the concept, and doesn't just want to die despite battleship strength armor plate.

----
Also, that horse icon raises questions... and now I want Votann clone-cavalry, just to show that they grasp the concept of horses.

If it reassures you any, the social media accounts confirmed in a couple places that they do come with helmets.

Good news then. Im expecting these coming packed with extra bits.

Don't forget in the art for the leaked card set there was a Hearthguard with what looks like a small shield with two bolters so I'm guessing there's at least one alt weapon build. Hopefully with a few more of those massive hammers and some plasma axes..

really loving these - I've seen a few mocked in different colours and they rock. One minor thing is I wish they had more ornate helmets, or at least the champion would but I can understand the design choice not to.
This release must be not too far away - Army Box reveal at Gen-Con?

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 (HN) wrote:
It as been rather obvious since the primaris that gw is ripping off hard the designs of Starcraft2, but god damn thos exo armors are pushing hard, especially with that helmet.

Having an astronaut/flight suit inspired helmet is ripping off Starcraft 2?

Mate. The big ol' shoulderpads, the overall proportions, the chunkiness of the gauntlets, the almost identical shape of the helmet...

And that just the front. That segmented spine looks A LOT like the one on SC2 marines, and were shown pretty upclose in their now iconic intro cinematic, a cinematic btw that GW has recently totally ripped-off in their Gearing up of a space marine cinematic, showing how painfully creatively bankrupt and shameless they are.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I really wonder what the reason for the animal banner thing is. If it's just a culture thing I'd have assumed something like different visages of the Votann instead considering that's even built into their architecture.

Agreed, the animals tip of thos crest always felt off to me, the style doesn't fit with the aesthetic of the rest of the crest or anything else on thos models for that matter. Having a more runic looking votann face (which is supposed to be their faction logo and kinda the center of their whole culture) would have made more sens and gave a more coherent look overall.

derpherp wrote:

I thought that for a bit, but then I saw this picture:

Those chunky shoulder pads are from the OG squat models 100%. The sword and gun is too. The segmented boots. Possibly even the domed head. Also firebats don't have hands, so I dunno what you are on about with gauntlets. The proportions are different too, smaller feet and "hands".

This is reaching so far you might as well be comparing an apple to a lawn mower

 lord_blackfang wrote:
This is reaching so far you might as well be comparing an apple to a lawn mower

But dude, look, it's armor, it have shoulders, a gun and a sword, it's basically the exact same thing!

Having an astronaut/flight suit inspired helmet is ripping off Starcraft 2?

Mate. The big ol' shoulderpads, the overall proportions, the chunkiness of the gauntlets, the almost identical shape of the helmet...

But dude, look, it's armor, it have shoulders, a gun and a sword, it's basically the exact same thing!

To be clear for you guys who don't seem to quite get it ?, I used to think they were ripped off wholesale from starcraft, but now looking at the original model I do not think that.

I think they do look a bit like terran marines, but the reason for that is because they are playing on the original design which featured dome helmets and giant pauldrons.

You put a dome helmet and giant pauldrons on any future armour that isn't an egg and its going to look reminiscent of terran marines.


The sword+gun and segmented boots I think makes it clear that the intent was to un-eggify the original exo-squat and imo makes the case pretty solid.

Feel free to continue screeching about it being a wholesale rip off.

don't forget the ranged version

 aracersss wrote:
don't forget the ranged version

Ah yes, literally literal Marauders 1:1, not even slightly exaggerating.

40k and Starcraft, a decades long love story in which they both rip each other off

These look great. My desire to know more has been elevated.

 aracersss wrote:
don't forget the ranged version

That looks like some sort of animal-themed embellishment on the weapon...they seem to be giving them a lot of animal stuff but nothing in the way of Votann-themed decoration. Strange as it's even their faction icon.

Maybe a favourable angle... Arms a bit long but not terrible.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 aracersss wrote:
don't forget the ranged version

That looks like some sort of animal-themed embellishment on the weapon...they seem to be giving them a lot of animal stuff but nothing in the way of Votann-themed decoration. Strange as it's even their faction icon.

Yeah, you'd think the Leagues of Votann would have iconography dedicated to their Votann rather than farm animals their Votann might have owned at some point thousands of years ago.
Maybe the Votann just really like animals, I dunno.

WebwayWarrior wrote:
Maybe a favourable angle... Arms a bit long but not terrible.

it is a starcraft suite, the arms and legs don't reach to the were the hand/feet of the suit are
this is were the bulky look from the suit comes from

WebwayWarrior wrote:
Maybe a favourable angle... Arms a bit long but not terrible.

Eh, the exosuit isn't meant to be form fitting, so the limbs seeming a bit long isn't that much of a big deal.

derpherp wrote:
To be clear for you guys who don't seem to quite get it ?, I used to think they were ripped off wholesale from starcraft, but now looking at the original model I do not think that.

I think they do look a bit like terran marines, but the reason for that is because they are playing on the original design which featured dome helmets and giant pauldrons.

You put a dome helmet and giant pauldrons on any future armour that isn't an egg and its going to look reminiscent of terran marines.


The sword+gun and segmented boots I think makes it clear that the intent was to un-eggify the original exo-squat and imo makes the case pretty solid.

Feel free to continue screeching about it being a wholesale rip off.

Trash take as always I see.
It's always funny to see how you literally ignore everything people say, even when they put cute picture for you to look at and just try somehow to talk down to everyone despite being clearly not the sharpest tool in the shed.

The back of the armor look very, VERY close to a SC2 marine, especially that spine, the front look like a mix of a marine and a marauder (especially that ranged version).

The reality is simple, since 8th GW has been ripping of Starcraft 2 (and SC2 specifically, not the first one) in the most shameless fashion possible, from their skybunker that look exactly the same than the iconic bunkers of SC2, to the Agressors and Inceptor that are carbon copy of Marauder and Reaper to that very out place Firestrike Servo-Turret that nobody understood why it was ever a thing until they realized it's simply because SC2 had an Auto-Turret unit.

And these new exo-suites are PAINFULLY close to the SC2 marines and Marauders that you have to be blind or a GW salesman to deny the fact that it's an obvious lazy ripoff.

And before anyone come with the usual smoothbrain take, yes, we all know the story of war/starcrafts and warhammars, but that's so painfully out of topic I'm amazed every time someone bring it up anyway.

Blizzard was original inspired by the warhammers when they started their game series 30 years ago and never ever looked back on since, trying to pretend that somehow GW and Blizz were constantly ripping eachothers is as moronic as saying that GW has been constantly ripping off LoTR and Dune for the past 40 years, it's just not true, what's going on on GW side can be pinpointed with the start of the primaris and has continued since (like thos random necron walkers that are clearly inspired from the SC2 protos walkers), or that frankly embarrassing "The Armouring of a Space Marine" cinematic that didn't just ripoff the SC2 iconic intro, but actually ripped off a fanmade 40k version of said intro (called The Raptor on youtube), one that was the first to use that Crysis suite as the now apparently canon astartes undergarment, since GW copied that too despite it not being a thing before that fanmade video that was just using some 3D assets they had from Crysis.

You can like it all you want, it won't change the fact that GW has been painfully creatively bankrupt as of late.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 aracersss wrote:
don't forget the ranged version

That looks like some sort of animal-themed embellishment on the weapon...they seem to be giving them a lot of animal stuff but nothing in the way of Votann-themed decoration. Strange as it's even their faction icon.

Yeah, you'd think the Leagues of Votann would have iconography dedicated to their Votann rather than farm animals their Votann might have owned at some point thousands of years ago.
Maybe the Votann just really like animals, I dunno.

Like the Votann/Dwarf face iconography is their faction icon and even something that they've seemingly put onto walls (it's in the background of the Command Centre art), but it's completely absent from the miniatures. The animal theming just seems odd and a little out of place considering that.

Starcraft marine stretched out horizontally 15%.

I'm not wowed by the new armor, but none of the pictures here convince me that an obvious ripoff is taking place.

A few decades of wargaming in and especially out of the GW universe and you realize that we're at critical mass of design such that it's near impossible to make a Power Armor design that doesn't look (intentionally or not) extremely derivative of earlier work.

I completely understand arguing the merits of a design or how much it fits the universe/fluff/Faction/etc but arguing originality is a dead end for all parties.

distant and muffled "You wanna piece of me, boy?"

 Eilif wrote:
I'm not wowed by the new armor, but none of the pictures here convince me that an obvious ripoff is taking place.

A few decades of wargaming in and especially out of the GW universe and you realize that we're at critical mass of design such that it's near impossible to make a Power Armor design that doesn't look (intentionally or not) extremely derivative of earlier work.

I completely understand arguing the merits of a design or how much it fits the universe/fluff/Faction/etc but arguing originality is a dead end for all parties.

There are plenty of things they could do with an exo-armour that make it different from the usual style, though.

A more dieselpunk inspired look for example:

 Eilif wrote:
I'm not wowed by the new armor, but none of the pictures here convince me that an obvious ripoff is taking place.

Is anyone trying to do that? Admittedly I've only skimmed the last couple of pages of rapid updates but it seems like the consensus is more akin to obvious inspiration moreso than "ripoff".

WebwayWarrior wrote:
Maybe a favourable angle... Arms a bit long but not terrible.

Quite a lot better than starcraft marines who have dislocated shoulders at least.





MMmm, the more I look at starcraft marines here and around the internet and compare them to the new squats the less I really feel they look hugely like starcraft marines. They do look kinda like them, but its a pretty shallow resemblance.

Like, this talk about marauders and that ciggarette carton image or whatever it is, marauders use single barrel grenade launchers not machine guns if you look them up. I feel like people here either didn't play starcraft, or are only half remembering what marauders are like. The nub above the barrel doesnt actually do anything, its just a small nub with a light on it. Marauders also don't have hands, I doubt that carton image is handless, the panel thing looks too thin. So its probably a double barrelled machine gun or something like that above the hand. That's not very marauder like tbh.

Which makes this comment "Ah yes, literally literal Marauders 1:1, not even slightly exaggerating." sound like sarcasm. But then maybe it always was lol.

 Eilif wrote:

A few decades of wargaming in and especially out of the GW universe and you realize that we're at critical mass of design such that it's near impossible to make a Power Armor design that doesn't look (intentionally or not) extremely derivative of earlier work.

Oh sure, nobody denies the fact that at some point you reach that critical mass, but we aren't talking about a one time thing here, there's way too many of "GW suddenly ripping off SC2" post 8th to be reasonably handwaved as pure coincidence or osmosis.

Isn't the spine on the back of the suit a link to the Van Saar original STC design? It takes a while to develop a new faction, but seems that the 2018 Van Saar might have included that bit of design whilst the Votan were a little way off.

It seems the Einhyr has some of the Dwarf embellishment stuff....on the sides of their ankles and facing upwards behind their head? Very odd places to put them, I feel like that side of their aesthetic is just being randomly stuck on without much thought.

These look so... generic.

They're almost Mantic-level in design.

Really dull.

I’ll give them credit where it’s due, the designs are consistent with other in-universe stuff they’ve released since Primaris became a thing. Unfortunately that also means they’re consistently ugly and boring. The armor looks like a weird hybrid of what the Van Saar and Cawl’s marines wear.

I usually laugh at people that nitpick models by saying they just copy pasted the poses in the digital sculpting tool they use, but I cannot unsee the similarities between these and the aggressors. It’s like they took those, asked how could they make them even worse than they already were, and stuck with that design philosophy.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
These look so... generic.

They're almost Mantic-level in design.

Damn "Manti-level in design" is so accurate it actually hurts.

At this point I fully expect them to have SC2 siege tanks a their only battle tank ngl.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
These look so... generic.

They're almost Mantic-level in design.

Really dull.

I agree so much with this. For the Votann to be a viable UNIT, much less a whole faction, they really need a more 'iconic' look than this. GW is normally so over the top with their visual style that it's hard to believe that this is a complaint I have, but there it is.

I don't want the whole "They are called Space Wolves so we have to have them turning into wolves and riding wolves" ridiculousness that forever blighted Space Wolves for me--but for a group that so venerates their ancestral culture, the Votann sure seem like they don't show much enthusiasm for it.

Those pauldons are dire, otherwise I like the look; generic videogamey aside. Probably look better with cataphractii-ish shoulders.

"Mantic-level"? E-youch!

Another odd preview for me. It is not that I hate any of the NuSquats so far... I am just not impressed yet. A good part could be the colour scheme. for some reasons it does not "click" with me at all.

The exoarmour ones are... okay, I guess? Paintjob aside, what actually irks me about them is the complete lack of helmets: just no.

As with the rest of the range so far, I want to see these painted by some people outside of GW. Other colours, other styles of painting... anything but this would make them look better I believe. And if nothing can save them: not the end of the world, money saved for me.

I wonder how big these fellas are next to a Cadian Guardsman…

Too generic sci-fi or not dwarfy enough.

It's fair criticism, but had they leaned into less generic sci-fi and more dwarfy there would be people calling them hacks for lazy dwarf tropes so I don't think this is a battle that can be perfectly won. Someone wont like it no matter what they do.

For what its worth these designs seem liked or really liked by 80-90% of people online, which is a good sign as negativity motivates people to comment many times more than positivity.

The more I look at the units the more I feel like the range is going to look really good once it is shown together as an army. And I feel it's going to be considered iconic in the long term for its well thought out design principles because I can practically see the amount of thought that went into these designs, saying this as someone who has done design work in the past.

The only thing I'm really worried about is if they will stick the landing with the Land Train

I was wrong to call these Mantic-like. Forge Father's at least have character.

derpherp wrote:
It's fair criticism, but had they leaned into less generic sci-fi and more dwarfy there would be people calling them hacks for lazy dwarf tropes so I don't think this is a battle that can be perfectly won. Someone wont like it no matter what they do.

Bad's better than boring.

The lack of helmets bothers me. Even the one that has it has the faceplate open.

If they really want to show off their faces and those dermal ridges, then just reveal some background like how they have powerful forcefields replicating the effects of armor around their head. That's the explanation Jes Goodwin gave for those Exarch alternate heads that had open faces.

People complaining about 40k stealing from StarCraft? What year is this?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I was wrong to call these Mantic-like. Forge Father's at least have character.

derpherp wrote:
It's fair criticism, but had they leaned into less generic sci-fi and more dwarfy there would be people calling them hacks for lazy dwarf tropes so I don't think this is a battle that can be perfectly won. Someone wont like it no matter what they do.

Bad's better than boring.

...Considering how loud and viciously nasty the community would be... I'll uh, disagree on that one. Boring doesnt get brutal backlash unlike being actually genuinely bad would.

That said, I don't think they're design is boring, although I can see how its not for everyone.

If they nail the land train I don't expect to see the word boring ever used again in reference to the Votann. But we will see. Fingers crossed its amazing.

derpherp wrote:
To be clear for you guys who don't seem to quite get it ?, I used to think they were ripped off wholesale from starcraft, but now looking at the original model I do not think that.

I think they do look a bit like terran marines, but the reason for that is because they are playing on the original design which featured dome helmets and giant pauldrons.

You put a dome helmet and giant pauldrons on any future armour that isn't an egg and its going to look reminiscent of terran marines.


The sword+gun and segmented boots I think makes it clear that the intent was to un-eggify the original exo-squat and imo makes the case pretty solid.

Feel free to continue screeching about it being a wholesale rip off.

Everyone else is Wrong But Me: The Musical

 Albertorius wrote:

derpherp wrote:
To be clear for you guys who don't seem to quite get it ?, I used to think they were ripped off wholesale from starcraft, but now looking at the original model I do not think that.

I think they do look a bit like terran marines, but the reason for that is because they are playing on the original design which featured dome helmets and giant pauldrons.

You put a dome helmet and giant pauldrons on any future armour that isn't an egg and its going to look reminiscent of terran marines.


The sword+gun and segmented boots I think makes it clear that the intent was to un-eggify the original exo-squat and imo makes the case pretty solid.

Feel free to continue screeching about it being a wholesale rip off.

Everyone else is Wrong But Me: The Musical

I'm going to be super charitable and assume English isn't your native language. In English when you couch your statements with the phrase "I think" you are saying it is an opinion based on what you know, and that all other opinions are completely valid. There does not exist a way in the english language to couch statements more mildly than using the phrase "I think".

I used the phrase "I think" four times in my comment. I tried my best to make it absolutely explicitly clear that this is just an opinion. I consciously went out of my way to write it like this.

I actually went further than that though, I used the phrase to "make a solid case"
which according to google means:

to argue for something
to make a case: to argue for something, to defend an idea.

Which to be clear does not mean I am stating something as fact, I am stating that if someone were to get into a debate for the topic they would have a decent chance at winning the debate because their case is solid. That does not mean they are guaranteed to win that debate.

Hope that helps clear my meaning up.... again.

derpherp wrote:
Feel free to continue screeching about it being a wholesale rip off.

Everyone else is Wrong But Me: The Musical

I'm going to be super charitable and assume English isn't your native language. In English when you couch your statements with the phrase "I think" you are saying it is an opinion based on what you know, and that all other opinions are completely valid. There does not exist a way in the english language to couch statements more mildly than using the phrase "I think".

I used the phrase "I think" four times in my comment. I tried my best to make it absolutely explicitly clear that this is just an opinion. I consciously went out of my way to write it like this.

See, however many "I think" you add, you also make quite clear what you think about everyone else's opinion. When you characterize everyone else's comments as "screeching", it makes quite clear what you mean by "I think".

So... yeah

The facial scarring on the sergeant is a nice nod to the Demiurg background.

I'm not minding that they seem derivative - there's only so many ways to do bulky power armor.

I like them, but are there helmet options? I just hate it when models have massive armor totally compromised by a lack of helmets.

I love the irony of a set of miniatures from GW that I could use as proxies for Mantic minis. Oh, how the tables have turned!

Looking forward to using these in Deadzone!

 schoon wrote:
The facial scarring on the sergeant is a nice nod to the Demiurg background.

I'm not minding that they seem derivative - there's only so many ways to do bulky power armor.

Yeah, I think the sergeant has one of the nicer faces they have done so far for the squats, some of the faces could be better.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I like them, but are there helmet options? I just hate it when models have massive armor totally compromised by a lack of helmets.

I might be wrong on this but I think kits in the last few years have tended to have both face and helmet options for all units whereas that wasn't the policy in the past.

 Albertorius wrote:
See, however many "I think" you add, you also make quite clear what you think about everyone else's opinion. When you characterize everyone else's comments as "screeching", it makes quite clear what you mean by "I think".So... yeah

Oh cool so its no longer my whole comment now its just the last sentence. Ahmaaaazing.

Of course if you had actually bothered to read the thread properly you wouldn't have said this because you would know it was aimed at those people not realising I was replying to someone and going absolutely ballistic assuming that I thought they looked nothing like terran marines. But whatever, you can have your easy out.

derpherp wrote:
Too generic sci-fi or not dwarfy enough.

It's fair criticism, but had they leaned into less generic sci-fi and more dwarfy there would be people calling them hacks for lazy dwarf tropes so I don't think this is a battle that can be perfectly won. Someone wont like it no matter what they do.

Except those "lazy dwarf tropes" are what makes Dwarfs what they are. Acting as if the Leagues don't still have those typical Dwarf tropes seems to be completely missing what they are; they fit the Dwarf archetype with being short stoic hardy master craftsmen and miners with an importance on their culture, history, heritage, the Votann / Ancestors, enjoying beer, disliking elves, and the aesthetics of beards, runes, picks/axes, geometric patterns, the Dwarf-head as their faction icon and even incorporating that in their architecture to the point they have walls that are that design.

It's about wanting the miniatures to reflect that lore and what they are meant to be. For them to be a unique but still noticably Dwarfy take on the Dwarf Archetype in the same way as the Kharadron Overlords. The Dwarf theming needs to implemented throughout to show that side of their lore but so far it's on them in a way that feels jarring and like a complete afterthought that hasn't been done in a proper way.

There are plenty of way that could have made their designs more interesting without going too far either way. The options aren't mutually exclusive between "generic sci-fi" or "Too much Dwarf", you know.

If this was instead the Eldar you'd get the same sort of people who don't want a new Dwarf army to be Dwarfs going "You just want the Eldar to be Fantasy Elfs in Space, Boring!". Appealing to people who are against the idea in the first place at the expense of what they are isn't a good move.

Based on the units that were shown off thus far, here's my prediction for how the Squats' main tank will look like. It's probably gonna be called something like Einhyrjyr Syige Thank and it'll be the bestest tank ever in the galaxy.

That reminds me that this new take on Squats will be the worst thing in the history of forever unless GW makes a tracked tank that is a mobile brewery.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Based on the units that were shown off thus far, here's my prediction for how the Squats' main tank will look like. It's probably gonna be called something like Einhyrjyr Syige Thank and it'll be the bestest tank ever in the galaxy.

Hahahahah! That's a good 'un.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
It seems the Einhyr has some of the Dwarf embellishment stuff....on the sides of their ankles and facing upwards behind their head? Very odd places to put them, I feel like that side of their aesthetic is just being randomly stuck on without much thought.

Yep one of their bigger issues... just randomly sticking on some nordic bling that's totally out of context with the rest of the design.

Everybody knows anti-grav is needed (so fold those tracks under the hull at 90 degrees and you're set)

Well, if GW is going to steal from someone, I'd rather it be Blizzard. Seriously, sod those people and their company. If they have a problem with it, let them pursue the matter in court - what benefit is there to any of us to advocate for them pro-bono.

Also, thank you everybody for living up to my prediction

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
It seems the Einhyr has some of the Dwarf embellishment stuff....on the sides of their ankles and facing upwards behind their head? Very odd places to put them, I feel like that side of their aesthetic is just being randomly stuck on without much thought.

Yep one of their bigger issues... just randomly sticking on some nordic bling that's totally out of context with the rest of the design.

The bolter and the guy in the Command Centre artwork are alright but outside of those it's either missing entirely even though it should be there because it's part of their lore and theme, or has been stuck on randomly with no thought to making it fit on the model in a cohesive, natural looking way. The Theyn banner clashes with the Hearthkin because that's all there is on them, the Hearthguard have the decoration in odd places, and they're for some reason going for animal designs rather something to do with the Votann. Whether you like the Nordic Dwarf stuff or not, I don't see how what they're doing with it is done well at all.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Well, if GW is going to steal from someone, I'd rather it be Blizzard. Seriously, sod those people and their company. If they have a problem with it, let them pursue the matter in court - what benefit is there to any of us to advocate for them pro-bono.

Also, thank you everybody for living up to my prediction

I think most of our disappointment comes from GW's design being uncreative, not from wanting to defend Blizzard's IP, an indeed gak company.

derpherp wrote:
Too generic sci-fi or not dwarfy enough.

It's fair criticism, but had they leaned into less generic sci-fi and more dwarfy there would be people calling them hacks for lazy dwarf tropes so I don't think this is a battle that can be perfectly won. Someone wont like it no matter what they do.

'Generic sci-fi' and 'stereotypical fantasy dwarfs' aren't exactly the only aesthetic choices they could have taken. I mean, we're talking about a faction that in its original incarnation had biker themes, and GW decided to drop it because it wasn't distinctive enough. Now they're coming back but without even that differentiation.

On top of that, the way the themes are implemented seems really clunky to me; like they've got these sleek rounded surfaces but then just dwarf glyph out of nowhere. I think you could make some recognizably dwarfy but not too flanderised designs, but my first thought on seeing the Einhyr was that I was looking at Starcraft Marines that someone had glued dwarf bits to.

GW's historically been pretty good about adding their own creative twists to established fantasy/sci-fi tropes, but so far I'm just not seeing that. The very on-the-nose naming scheme doesn't help either.

 catbarf wrote:

derpherp wrote:
Too generic sci-fi or not dwarfy enough.

It's fair criticism, but had they leaned into less generic sci-fi and more dwarfy there would be people calling them hacks for lazy dwarf tropes so I don't think this is a battle that can be perfectly won. Someone wont like it no matter what they do.

'Generic sci-fi' and 'stereotypical fantasy dwarfs' aren't exactly the only aesthetic choices they could have taken. I mean, we're talking about a faction that in its original incarnation had biker themes, and GW decided to drop it because it wasn't distinctive enough. Now they're coming back but without even that differentiation.

On top of that, the way the themes are implemented seems really clunky to me; like they've got these sleek rounded surfaces but then just dwarf glyph out of nowhere. I think you could make some recognizably dwarfy but not too flanderised designs, but my first thought on seeing the Einhyr was that I was looking at Starcraft Marines that someone had glued dwarf bits to.

GW's historically been pretty good about adding their own creative twists to established fantasy/sci-fi tropes, but so far I'm just not seeing that. The very on-the-nose naming scheme doesn't help either.

Out of curiosity, are there any other sci-fi Dwarf miniatures that do it well? I've seen people dislike Mantics ForgeFathers for some reason but I'm not sure what else there is, other than the Hardcore Miniatures update on the original Squats which are pretty cool.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Out of curiosity, are there any other sci-fi Dwarf miniatures that do it well? I've seen people dislike Mantics ForgeFathers for some reason but I'm not sure what else there is, other than the Hardcore Miniatures update on the original Squats which are pretty cool.

IMO the only crime ForgeFathers are guilty of is being Mantic, if identical models were released by GW the same people would gobble them up. They certainly overlay a mild classic dwarf aesthetic over utilitarian power armour a lot better than Votann do.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

derpherp wrote:
Too generic sci-fi or not dwarfy enough.

It's fair criticism, but had they leaned into less generic sci-fi and more dwarfy there would be people calling them hacks for lazy dwarf tropes so I don't think this is a battle that can be perfectly won. Someone wont like it no matter what they do.

'Generic sci-fi' and 'stereotypical fantasy dwarfs' aren't exactly the only aesthetic choices they could have taken. I mean, we're talking about a faction that in its original incarnation had biker themes, and GW decided to drop it because it wasn't distinctive enough. Now they're coming back but without even that differentiation.

On top of that, the way the themes are implemented seems really clunky to me; like they've got these sleek rounded surfaces but then just dwarf glyph out of nowhere. I think you could make some recognizably dwarfy but not too flanderised designs, but my first thought on seeing the Einhyr was that I was looking at Starcraft Marines that someone had glued dwarf bits to.

GW's historically been pretty good about adding their own creative twists to established fantasy/sci-fi tropes, but so far I'm just not seeing that. The very on-the-nose naming scheme doesn't help either.

Out of curiosity, are there any other sci-fi Dwarf miniatures that do it well? I've seen people dislike Mantics ForgeFathers for some reason but I'm not sure what else there is, other than the Hardcore Miniatures update on the original Squats which are pretty cool.

Would WGA's Einherjar count? They're certainly much less high-tech than some others, more closer to the level of your Imperial Guard infantry.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Out of curiosity, are there any other sci-fi Dwarf miniatures that do it well? I've seen people dislike Mantics ForgeFathers for some reason but I'm not sure what else there is, other than the Hardcore Miniatures update on the original Squats which are pretty cool.

IMO the only crime ForgeFathers are guilty of is being Mantic, if identical models were released by GW the same people would gobble them up. They certainly overlay a mild classic dwarf aesthetic over utilitarian power armour a lot better than Votann do.

Looking at them more, I don't feel like they're that bad really. The angular, sharp, flat style to them feels like a better direction for Space Dwarfs.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

I think most of our disappointment comes from GW's design being uncreative, not from wanting to defend Blizzard's IP, an indeed gak company.

I really can't tell, I'm afraid. For me everything GW has released over the past decade at least has been varying degrees of garbage from a creative standpoint. Some of it's well executed technically, like the Spartan, but I'd never call any of it creative. "Oh look, it's a Primaris version of ____. Oh great, it's yet another goofy ork vehicle with an obvious Mad Max homage." and so on.

 Siygess wrote:
I love the irony of a set of miniatures from GW that I could use as proxies for Mantic minis. Oh, how the tables have turned!

Looking forward to using these in Deadzone!

First thing I thought after seeing the reveal. The second thing was to wonder where I stored my Enforcers in Peacekeeper armor.

M.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Out of curiosity, are there any other sci-fi Dwarf miniatures that do it well? I've seen people dislike Mantics ForgeFathers for some reason but I'm not sure what else there is, other than the Hardcore Miniatures update on the original Squats which are pretty cool.

IMO the only crime ForgeFathers are guilty of is being Mantic, if identical models were released by GW the same people would gobble them up. They certainly overlay a mild classic dwarf aesthetic over utilitarian power armour a lot better than Votann do.

The Warhammer community is utterly ruthless and blood thirsty lmao. if GW released the forgefathers they would get absolutely slaughtered for lazy design.

derpherp wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Out of curiosity, are there any other sci-fi Dwarf miniatures that do it well? I've seen people dislike Mantics ForgeFathers for some reason but I'm not sure what else there is, other than the Hardcore Miniatures update on the original Squats which are pretty cool.

IMO the only crime ForgeFathers are guilty of is being Mantic, if identical models were released by GW the same people would gobble them up. They certainly overlay a mild classic dwarf aesthetic over utilitarian power armour a lot better than Votann do.

What are you talking about? The Warhammer community is utterly ruthless and blood thirsty lmao. if GW released the forgefathers they would get absolutely slaughtered for lazy design.

And then they'd buy five boxes

And then they'd buy five boxes

At least you admit they would get slaughtered.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:


Except those "lazy dwarf tropes" are what makes Dwarfs what they are. Acting as if the Leagues don't still have those typical Dwarf tropes seems to be completely missing what they are; they fit the Dwarf archetype with being short stoic hardy master craftsmen and miners with an importance on their culture, history, heritage, the Votann / Ancestors, enjoying beer, disliking elves, and the aesthetics of beards, runes, picks/axes, geometric patterns, the Dwarf-head as their faction icon and even incorporating that in their architecture to the point they have walls that are that design.

It's about wanting the miniatures to reflect that lore and what they are meant to be. For them to be a unique but still noticably Dwarfy take on the Dwarf Archetype in the same way as the Kharadron Overlords. The Dwarf theming needs to implemented throughout to show that side of their lore but so far it's on them in a way that feels jarring and like a complete afterthought that hasn't been done in a proper way.

There are plenty of way that could have made their designs more interesting without going too far either way. The options aren't mutually exclusive between "generic sci-fi" or "Too much Dwarf", you know.

If this was instead the Eldar you'd get the same sort of people who don't want a new Dwarf army to be Dwarfs going "You just want the Eldar to be Fantasy Elfs in Space, Boring!". Appealing to people who are against the idea in the first place at the expense of what they are isn't a good move.

I'm sure part of the community would absolutely love more dwarfiness on the basic soldier's unit armour, but another part of the community is just going to gak all over it. In another timeline that would literally be happening in this thread. There would be people like you in here calling it tacky, or like a mcdonalds toy, or lazily leaning too hard on dwarfyness or calling it copying Mantic designs, even if the dwarfiness was relatively subtle.

You know full well how the Warhammer community is, this would be absolutely no different.

And yes that includes your exact idea of dwarfiness. I saw you complimenting the Mantic Forge Fathers lol, there are bucket loads of people who utterly haaaaaaate that look. And yes it would also include the low tech biker asesthetic.

There is no world in which GW can perfectly win this battle and make everyone happy.

"For them to be a unique but still noticably Dwarfy take on the Dwarf Archetype in the same way as the Kharadron Overlords."

Man, the Kharadron Overlord are one of the most controversial lines GW have ever put out in Age of Sigmar, they regularly get called out of place and pure steam punk cringe. This is the worst example ever to use as an example of something that would "win".


In any case, even if we dont agree with how the subtle dwarfiness was pulled off on the canon fodder units, you do seem to agree with me that the more important a unit is the more dwarfy it is from what we have seen so far, and that named characters might end up very dwarfy like that one concept art peice with the gold armour.

I think if it does turn out that way then that it is a fine enough compromise.

derpherp wrote:

And then they'd buy five boxes

At least you admit they would get slaughtered.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:


Except those "lazy dwarf tropes" are what makes Dwarfs what they are. Acting as if the Leagues don't still have those typical Dwarf tropes seems to be completely missing what they are; they fit the Dwarf archetype with being short stoic hardy master craftsmen and miners with an importance on their culture, history, heritage, the Votann / Ancestors, enjoying beer, disliking elves, and the aesthetics of beards, runes, picks/axes, geometric patterns, the Dwarf-head as their faction icon and even incorporating that in their architecture to the point they have walls that are that design.

It's about wanting the miniatures to reflect that lore and what they are meant to be. For them to be a unique but still noticably Dwarfy take on the Dwarf Archetype in the same way as the Kharadron Overlords. The Dwarf theming needs to implemented throughout to show that side of their lore but so far it's on them in a way that feels jarring and like a complete afterthought that hasn't been done in a proper way.

There are plenty of way that could have made their designs more interesting without going too far either way. The options aren't mutually exclusive between "generic sci-fi" or "Too much Dwarf", you know.

If this was instead the Eldar you'd get the same sort of people who don't want a new Dwarf army to be Dwarfs going "You just want the Eldar to be Fantasy Elfs in Space, Boring!". Appealing to people who are against the idea in the first place at the expense of what they are isn't a good move.

I'm sure part of the community would absolutely love more dwarfiness on the basic soldier's unit armour, but another part of the community is just going to gak all over it. In another timeline that would literally be happening in this thread. There would be people like you in here calling it tacky, or like a mcdonalds toy, or lazily leaning too hard on dwarfyness or calling it copying Mantic designs, even if the dwarfiness was relatively subtle.

You know full well how the Warhammer community is, this would be absolutely no different.

And yes that includes your exact idea of dwarfiness. I saw you complimenting the Mantic Forge Fathers lol, there are bucket loads of people who utterly haaaaaaate that look. And yes it would also include the low tech biker asesthetic.

There is no world in which GW can perfectly win this battle and make everyone happy.

"For them to be a unique but still noticably Dwarfy take on the Dwarf Archetype in the same way as the Kharadron Overlords."

Man, the Kharadron Overlord are one of the most controversial lines GW have ever put out in Age of Sigmar, they regularly get called out of place and pure steam punk cringe. This is the worst example ever to use as an example of something that would "win".


In any case, even if we dont agree with how the subtle dwarfiness was pulled off on the canon fodder units, you do seem to agree with me that the more important a unit is the more dwarfy it is from what we have seen so far, and that named characters might end up very dwarfy like that one concept art peice with the gold armour.

I think if it does turn out that way then that it is a fine enough compromise.

Oh right, because the priority for an aesthetic for something based on the Dwarf archetype should be that it should be to make it cater to the people who don't like the Dwarf archetype in the first place, then. Can't have the people who don't like the characteristics of The Dwarfs be disappointed with the new Space Dwarfs!

I see that once again you've ended up completely missing the point with the comparison to Kharadron Overlords.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

derpherp wrote:
Too generic sci-fi or not dwarfy enough.

It's fair criticism, but had they leaned into less generic sci-fi and more dwarfy there would be people calling them hacks for lazy dwarf tropes so I don't think this is a battle that can be perfectly won. Someone wont like it no matter what they do.

'Generic sci-fi' and 'stereotypical fantasy dwarfs' aren't exactly the only aesthetic choices they could have taken. I mean, we're talking about a faction that in its original incarnation had biker themes, and GW decided to drop it because it wasn't distinctive enough. Now they're coming back but without even that differentiation.

On top of that, the way the themes are implemented seems really clunky to me; like they've got these sleek rounded surfaces but then just dwarf glyph out of nowhere. I think you could make some recognizably dwarfy but not too flanderised designs, but my first thought on seeing the Einhyr was that I was looking at Starcraft Marines that someone had glued dwarf bits to.

GW's historically been pretty good about adding their own creative twists to established fantasy/sci-fi tropes, but so far I'm just not seeing that. The very on-the-nose naming scheme doesn't help either.

Out of curiosity, are there any other sci-fi Dwarf miniatures that do it well? I've seen people dislike Mantics ForgeFathers for some reason but I'm not sure what else there is, other than the Hardcore Miniatures update on the original Squats which are pretty cool.

Would WGA's Einherjar count? They're certainly much less high-tech than some others, more closer to the level of your Imperial Guard infantry.

I have 48 of these guys standing by for Squats conversions. I was also able to snag several sprues of fantasy dwarf bits (not sure what variety) from the FLGS bits box. Fantasy dwarf heads, hammers, and axes will go a long way to making these guys look squat-like.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Well, if GW is going to steal from someone, I'd rather it be Blizzard. Seriously, sod those people and their company. If they have a problem with it, let them pursue the matter in court - what benefit is there to any of us to advocate for them pro-bono.

If 10th edition starts allowing Command Points to be purchased via microtransactions in the Warhammer+ app I'm done.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Well, if GW is going to steal from someone, I'd rather it be Blizzard. Seriously, sod those people and their company. If they have a problem with it, let them pursue the matter in court - what benefit is there to any of us to advocate for them pro-bono.

If 10th edition starts allowing Command Points to be purchased via microtransactions in the Warhammer+ app I'm done.

That's the timeline where GW gets bought out by EA or Activision or Disney

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Based on the units that were shown off thus far, here's my prediction for how the Squats' main tank will look like. It's probably gonna be called something like Einhyrjyr Syige Thank and it'll be the bestest tank ever in the galaxy.

Do you predict that it will get +24" range and +3 Damage if it doesn't move in the movement phase?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I see that once again you've ended up completely missing the point with the comparison to Kharadron Overlords.

Ngl, I don't even know why you keep bothering interacting with him. Everything he is capable of is making dreadfully back point about stuff he literally don't know anything about.
It's like talking to a wall, but dumber.

One thing is certain, GW is dropping the ball on all side.
For the people that expected the space dwarf faction to be dwarvish, and for the people that ... for some very weird mental condition wanted them to NOT be dwarvish since they are doing the two at the same time.

If said it once and I'll say it again, the WHOLE point of the squat was "space dwarf" by intentionally going out of their way to not make them dwarvish GW is just doing what many out of touch corporations do, they are trying to leverage a brand recognition for sale while at the same time not wanting to respect what said brand is supposed to be about.

They should have went for Demiurge if they really didn't want to make dwarfs, go full on Alien with them and expand on the rather unique look of their Ship in Battle Fleet (hell, even the voice they used for that BFG Tau trailer just stole the show), it's a cool concept and one where they could have gone something really new rather than this weird fens riding where they are trying to bait everyone with the idea of the return of the squats while simultaneously CLEARLY not doing it.


It's as if when they decided to bring back the genestealer cult they made them instead a faction of telepathic slanderman with victorian steampunk look.
Literally nobody asked for that.

I find myself agreeing with Mentlegen. If GW are trying to appeal to the "Space dwarfs are boring!!!" crowd by doing something radical they've already lost, because those same people are never going to buy them in the first place (or will buy them no matter what, because GW diehards) because they're already tainted from the start by BEING space dwarfs. On the other hand there's a ready made audience who do want space dwarfs from the go, who they can only manage to alienate by moving away from that.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

Would WGA's Einherjar count? They're certainly much less high-tech than some others, more closer to the level of your Imperial Guard infantry.

It says a lot that the Einherjar look more dwarfy just because of the helmets, but if you took those away they're just short Imperial Guard but still come out looking more dwarfy than the terran marines we've seen so far.

If the Mantic Forgefathers were released with Games Workshop on the box the same people decrying them would be calling them the best, most inspired space dwarf models ever convinced.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Mentlegen. If GW are trying to appeal to the "Space dwarfs are boring!!!" crowd by doing something radical they've already lost, because those same people are never going to buy them in the first place (or will buy them no matter what, because GW diehards) because they're already tainted from the start by BEING space dwarfs. On the other hand there's a ready made audience who do want space dwarfs from the go, who they can only manage to alienate by moving away from that.

They don't really cater to either side in particular. They don't seem to appeal to either the people who (absurdly) think an army based on the Dwarf archetype shouldn't be based on the Dwarf Archetype by making them very obviously not Dwarf themed, or the people who do like the Dwarf archetype and want their Space Dwarfs to be Dwarf themed. They try to play the middle ground and do both Dwarfs and Not Dwarfs at once, it's like they're more short generic sci-fi humans who for some reason have a slight dwarf theming stuck on them.

Like the Mantic Forgefather miniatures or not at least they choose a noticeable theme and actually go with it.

They're just slightly-below-average-height Norwegians.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Based on the units that were shown off thus far, here's my prediction for how the Squats' main tank will look like. It's probably gonna be called something like Einhyrjyr Syige Thank and it'll be the bestest tank ever in the galaxy.

While I like the aesthetic they are going for, with it being more tied to DAoT-era human style, I can definitely appreciate the effort you must have put into obtaining this leaked image. Exalted.

I like the DAoT theme on these models too, though I actually think aesthetically I liked the line troops better. Excited to see more.

Well that’s a damn sight easier than my way…

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
They're just slightly-below-average-height Norwegians.

But can they build turrets by wacking them with a wrench?

Flinty wrote:Well that’s a damn sight easier than my way…

Very cool.

Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Mentlegen. If GW are trying to appeal to the "Space dwarfs are boring!!!" crowd by doing something radical they've already lost, because those same people are never going to buy them in the first place (or will buy them no matter what, because GW diehards) because they're already tainted from the start by BEING space dwarfs. On the other hand there's a ready made audience who do want space dwarfs from the go, who they can only manage to alienate by moving away from that.

They don't really cater to either side in particular. They don't seem to appeal to either the people who (absurdly) think an army based on the Dwarf archetype shouldn't be based on the Dwarf Archetype by making them very obviously not Dwarf themed, or the people who do like the Dwarf archetype and want their Space Dwarfs to be Dwarf themed. They try to play the middle ground and do both Dwarfs and Not Dwarfs at once, it's like they're more short generic sci-fi humans who for some reason have a slight dwarf theming stuck on them.

Like the Mantic Forgefather miniatures or not at least they choose a noticeable theme and actually go with it.

Exactly.

I just don't get how the designs were approved, how were they allowed to get this far.

Nothing about them helps them to tell their story about who they are.

Eldar, soul stones, ornate slender exotic weapons and armour, lots of curved lines. Designs that help tell their story.

Marines, purity seals, big bulky functional weapons and armour.

Tyranids, 6 limbs, all organic.

Orks, cobbled together, ramshackle, and brutal looking.

Etc.

There is so far very little in what we have seen that helps show us who they are... which is Dwarfs in space.

 stonehorse wrote:
I just don't get how the designs were approved, how were they allowed to get this far.

Nothing about them helps them to tell their story about who they are.

Eldar, soul stones, ornate slender exotic weapons and armour, lots of curved lines. Designs that help tell their story.

Marines, purity seals, big bulky functional weapons and armour.

Tyranids, 6 limbs, all organic.

Orks, cobbled together, ramshackle, and brutal looking.

Etc.

There is so far very little in what we have seen that helps show us who they are... which is Dwarfs in space.

But they have animal backpack icons! because that's totally something that is part of the Dwarf aesthetic and it's not like there would be something more fitting for an army that worships ancient AI in the shape of giant heads, has a Dwarf/Votann head as their faction icon, has wall decoration stylized on Dwarf/Votann faces, and revere their ancestors....

Seriously, it's not good at all how the guy who hasn't actually been said to be part of The leagues has more that's in-line with the League theming on him than the League miniatures themselves do.

 Flinty wrote:
Well that’s a damn sight easier than my way…

Truescaled squats!

Edit: Old terminology. Primarisquats!

Yeah, as much as I dislike Kharadons, they at least look distinct and you can tell they are meant to be dwarfs.

Here, they just look like short terran marines with a couple of decals slapped onto them. Very uninspiring and kind of bland.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, as much as I dislike Kharadons, they at least look distinct and you can tell they are meant to be dwarfs.

Here, they just look like short terran marines with a couple of decals slapped onto them. Very uninspiring and kind of bland.

I'll say it won't take the 3d modelling community more than 72 hours post official release/in hand to have variant metal bearded helmets up for sale/download.

I'll put my tinfoil suite for a second and make the same guess that I did when the first wave primaris rolled out with their SC2 ripoff design and very "videogamey" units (like that awful ATV) and say that GW goal here is to make their design move videogame friendly.

I'm probably giving them more credit than they deserve tho by implying that their shift in style has a (missguided) goal rather than their new design team being simply gak at their job.

I suspect it has more to do with the design team being part of the younger generation, and as such grew up with / are into video games.

If only they were into Command and Conquer instead of Starcraft.
Then we'd get a Leman Russ redesign that looks suspiciously like an Apocalypse Tank, and Squats that look like RA2 Tesla Troopers

I get the impression the problems are down to having a starting idea of "Squats but as Demiurg". Jes Goodwin created some concepts for the Demiurg years ago and said that maybe they would come back to them and turn them into an something more substantial eventually, and this seems to be finally doing that.



So their "Space Dwarf" aesthetic is based around something that was instead meant to be aliens with just some of Dwarf tropes lore-wise, that they're now trying to fit the Dwarf stuff onto.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
I just don't get how the designs were approved, how were they allowed to get this far.

Nothing about them helps them to tell their story about who they are.

Eldar, soul stones, ornate slender exotic weapons and armour, lots of curved lines. Designs that help tell their story.

Marines, purity seals, big bulky functional weapons and armour.

Tyranids, 6 limbs, all organic.

Orks, cobbled together, ramshackle, and brutal looking.

Etc.

There is so far very little in what we have seen that helps show us who they are... which is Dwarfs in space.

But they have animal backpack icons! because that's totally something that is part of the Dwarf aesthetic and it's not like there would be something more fitting for an army that worships ancient AI in the shape of giant heads, has a Dwarf/Votann head as their faction icon, has wall decoration stylized on Dwarf/Votann faces, and revere their ancestors....

Seriously, it's not good at all how the guy who hasn't actually been said to be part of The leagues has more that's in-line with the League theming on him than the League miniatures themselves do.

Yeah it's like some GW designer was cripplingly afraid of actually integrating the symbol of their faction in the actual miniatures.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Mentlegen. If GW are trying to appeal to the "Space dwarfs are boring!!!" crowd by doing something radical they've already lost, because those same people are never going to buy them in the first place (or will buy them no matter what, because GW diehards) because they're already tainted from the start by BEING space dwarfs. On the other hand there's a ready made audience who do want space dwarfs from the go, who they can only manage to alienate by moving away from that.

If the Mantic Forgefathers were released with Games Workshop on the box the same people decrying them would be calling them the best, most inspired space dwarf models ever convinced.

I mean, you are just invalidating others opinions with this by saying they aren't going to buy them because they are shallow, or that they are zombies who buy anything.

I feel like this is the same as that one game company that spent millions of dollars on a character customizer with radical crazy species and wild bright blue hairstyles only to find that the average player went with pretty stayed stuff.

Similarity with Darktide, in polling people want to play the guardsman/veteran at twice the rate of any other class. Its the least 'wild' class and the most 'realistic'.

People don't always gravitate toward the loud and proud and blue haired and outwardly facing, and that is a perfectly valid opinion to have even if you don't agree with it.

From what I've seen these designs are being really well received by the community, so I think GW has called it right on this one. I think these squats are going to sell unusually well compared to other releases.

Eldar, soul stones, ornate slender exotic weapons and armour, lots of curved lines. Designs that help tell their story.

The only thing that could be considered selling a story here is the soulstones and a random person seeing them would have no idea what they were without context. They just look like colourful ovals. If you put the eldar in their armour with a helmet and showed it to the average person they might not even realise they are supposed to be elves as they have a bit more Asian influence than is the norm, which is literally what happened to me when I showed a friend not into warhammer a helmeted eldar. They called it "anime gundam".

They'd have a much easier time telling that the squats are dwarves honestly because of nordic runes and their short height.

Do we actually know any of the lore behind the animal banner things? Maybe they are filled with the ashes of dead squats. Maybe they are a mind control device that interferes with other squats forcing moral.

derpherp wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Mentlegen. If GW are trying to appeal to the "Space dwarfs are boring!!!" crowd by doing something radical they've already lost, because those same people are never going to buy them in the first place (or will buy them no matter what, because GW diehards) because they're already tainted from the start by BEING space dwarfs. On the other hand there's a ready made audience who do want space dwarfs from the go, who they can only manage to alienate by moving away from that.

If the Mantic Forgefathers were released with Games Workshop on the box the same people decrying them would be calling them the best, most inspired space dwarf models ever convinced.

I mean, you are just invalidating others opinions with this by saying they aren't going to buy them because they are shallow, or that they are zombies who buy anything.

I feel like this is the same as that one game company that spent millions of dollars on a character customizer with radical crazy species and wild bright blue hairstyles only to find that the average player went with pretty stayed stuff.

Similarity with Darktide, in polling people want to play the guardsman/veteran at twice the rate of any other class. Its the least 'wild' class and the most 'realistic'.

People don't always gravitate toward the loud and proud and blue haired and outwardly facing, and that is a perfectly valid opinion to have even if you don't agree with it.

I feel like you've got the analogy the other way around The "White Male Human Fighter is boring" crowd seem to be closer to those who want GW to write off the space dwarves concept and go in a radically different direction.

From what I've seen these designs are being really well received by the community, so I think GW has called it right on this one. I think these squats are going to sell unusually well compared to other releases.

Thing about GW hype is you need to read between the lines and dig into how varied opinions are. They could literally reveal a scribble on a bit of paper and half the internet would be calling it the best squiggle ever and they're insanely hyped because "I never knew I needed a squiggle so much before, rip my bank account!!!" It then comes down to how much 'meh' and negativity there is. I don't see much outright hate for the designs we've seen (except the grav-trike) but there's plenty of people who're at best indifferent, dislike it for various reasons or are laughing at how much it looks like a Starcraft marine. Compare the mixed reaction to something like the new Imperial Guard leaks which have largely been overwhelmingly positive, with the occasion "Cadians are boring, I wish it was another regiment" sprinkled here and there. The tone around the Votann reveals seems to be getting increasingly negative even from those who were pretty positive about the initial reveals.

I'm reminded of the Ossiarch reveals for AoS. The reaction to them has a lot of parallels. There's the diehards who'll love anything GW reveals no matter what, the people who think they're fine but were never the target audience, and the crowd who wanted to like them but expected designs closer to the typical fantasy skeleton rather than the Skeletor bone golems we got and were let down and the threads were a real 50-50 split of positivity and negativity. After they were nerfed from their tournament wrecking high their popularity seemed to settle somewhere on the middle-lower end, not unpopular but not one you expected to see on every other table. I'd guess the Votann will find a similar place depending on how expensive they are, more popular than GSC if their pricing isn't too crazy but rubbing shoulders with the non-Eldar Xenos races for popularity.

.

 Arbitrator wrote:

derpherp wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:
I find myself agreeing with Mentlegen. If GW are trying to appeal to the "Space dwarfs are boring!!!" crowd by doing something radical they've already lost, because those same people are never going to buy them in the first place (or will buy them no matter what, because GW diehards) because they're already tainted from the start by BEING space dwarfs. On the other hand there's a ready made audience who do want space dwarfs from the go, who they can only manage to alienate by moving away from that.

If the Mantic Forgefathers were released with Games Workshop on the box the same people decrying them would be calling them the best, most inspired space dwarf models ever convinced.

I mean, you are just invalidating others opinions with this by saying they aren't going to buy them because they are shallow, or that they are zombies who buy anything.

I feel like this is the same as that one game company that spent millions of dollars on a character customizer with radical crazy species and wild bright blue hairstyles only to find that the average player went with pretty stayed stuff.

Similarity with Darktide, in polling people want to play the guardsman/veteran at twice the rate of any other class. Its the least 'wild' class and the most 'realistic'.

People don't always gravitate toward the loud and proud and blue haired and outwardly facing, and that is a perfectly valid opinion to have even if you don't agree with it.

From what I've seen these designs are being really well received by the community, so I think GW has called it right on this one. I think these squats are going to sell unusually well compared to other releases.

Thing about GW hype is you need to read between the lines and dig into how varied opinions are. They could literally reveal a scribble on a bit of paper and half the internet would be calling it the best squiggle ever and they're insanely hyped because "I never knew I needed a squiggle so much before, rip my bank account!!!" It then comes down to how much 'meh' and negativity there is. I don't see much outright hate for the designs we've seen (except the grav-trike) but there's plenty of people who're at best indifferent, dislike it for various reasons or are laughing at how much it looks like a Starcraft marine. Compare the mixed reaction to something like the new Imperial Guard leaks which have largely been overwhelmingly positive, with the occasion "Cadians are boring, I wish it was another regiment" sprinkled here and there. The tone around the Votann reveals seems to be getting increasingly negative even from those who were pretty positive about the initial reveals.

I've noticed this too. With usual reveals you tend to get most agree that something is either positive or negative with just the occasional posts not agreeing, but with the Leagues I've seen plenty of people - both here, on multiple reddit subs, and on other 40k forums, say they're boring and uninspired, very similar to Starcraft or Generic sci-fi, say they're not Dwarfy enough, or say that their thoughts on them that they are just middling and they do nothing for them either way, despite their lore sounding great.

Infact, I can't recall anyone really saying it's actually a good realization of the Dwarf archetype side of their aesthetic specifically. A lot the "praise" has been from the sort of people who don't like the Dwarf archetype at all and keep repeating "The Lack of Dwarf theming is good, Dwarfs don't runes and Nordic elements!" and don't want Space Dwarfs to be Space Dwarfs.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Out of curiosity, are there any other sci-fi Dwarf miniatures that do it well? I've seen people dislike Mantics ForgeFathers for some reason but I'm not sure what else there is, other than the Hardcore Miniatures update on the original Squats which are pretty cool.

IMO the only crime ForgeFathers are guilty of is being Mantic, if identical models were released by GW the same people would gobble them up. They certainly overlay a mild classic dwarf aesthetic over utilitarian power armour a lot better than Votann do.

I agree that the Forgefathers are good. I've got their exo armored troops and a few of the dreads. Nicely dwarfy. The other figs are good (don't like the tank) but they don't size up with my actual squats enough to purchase.

As for others, Olley's Armies have been making good squats for quite a while.

Hasslefree has the GRYMN but are more like the Votaan in terms of not being Fantasy-dwarfy.

I'm addition there are alot of other options out there of varying quality by Wargames Atlantic, CP Miniatures, Black Cat Bases and others.

derpherp wrote:
I mean, you are just invalidating others opinion

The lack of selfawarness on that one is stagering.

 Arbitrator wrote:
Thing about GW hype is you need to read between the lines and dig into how varied opinions are. They could literally reveal a scribble on a bit of paper and half the internet would be calling it the best squiggle ever and they're insanely hyped because "I never knew I needed a squiggle so much before, rip my bank account!!!" It then comes down to how much 'meh' and negativity there is. I don't see much outright hate for the designs we've seen (except the grav-trike) but there's plenty of people who're at best indifferent, dislike it for various reasons or are laughing at how much it looks like a Starcraft marine. Compare the mixed reaction to something like the new Imperial Guard leaks which have largely been overwhelmingly positive, with the occasion "Cadians are boring, I wish it was another regiment" sprinkled here and there. The tone around the Votann reveals seems to be getting increasingly negative even from those who were pretty positive about the initial reveals.

Yup, that's how every product release need to be treated this days.
You have to filter out the noise from people that have literally nothing better to say than "omg take my money" and pay attention to what the people who don't blindly ride every single hype train because they actually have a critical eye will tell you.

This goes for movies, video games and obviously GW products.

One thing is certain, almost everyone I talked to that aren't the usual sad GW drone willing to throw money at boxes they will never open anyway have been the same : The more I see the Votann the less I like them, and this has deen way more pronounced for the people that actually kept the "we want squats back" meme alive for decades.

What's going on here rather obvious, the people that should have been the target audience aren't getting what they want, and most people that just were at first on board with "the return of the space dwarfs, the squats!" have been gradually realizing that what's coming isn't what they expected and that's 100% on GW. THEY are the one that started the hype train about how it was a return of THE SQUATS... before quickly revealing that actually they aren't the squats and the squats are thos other guys over at necrumda (which is still to this day the weirdest marketing move I've ever seen). They set up an expectation to then just go directly against it.
As I and many other have said, people would have been way more receptive if they just went and make something new that isn't presented as the space dwarfs, like the Demiurge. They could have made them way more alien, way less "kinda dwarf but not looking like one outside of the short stature" and that would have been fine...

Well, if they managed to come up with some visual design actually cool and not some obvious SC2 rejects.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I've noticed this too. With usual reveals you tend to get most agree that something is either positive or negative with just the occasional posts not agreeing, but with the Leagues I've seen plenty of people - both here, on multiple reddit subs, and on other 40k forums, say they're boring and uninspired, very similar to Starcraft or Generic sci-fi, say they're not Dwarfy enough, or say that their thoughts on them that they are just middling and they do nothing for them either way, despite their lore sounding great.

Infact, I can't recall anyone really saying it's actually a good realization of the Dwarf archetype side of their aesthetic specifically. A lot the "praise" has been from the sort of people who don't like the Dwarf archetype at all and keep repeating "The Lack of Dwarf theming is good, Dwarfs don't runes and Nordic elements!" and don't want Space Dwarfs to be Space Dwarfs.

You are hitting the nail on the head here.
The only "praise" I've seen so far is either a very generic, vague and non committal "I like them" that somehow can't give any real reason as to why, often followed by a defensive "It's good that they aren't boring dwarfs" that feels like it's only there to counter your own argument as to how they are not dwarvish enough. More often than not it's more a case of them disagreeing with you on principle because they don't like dwarf and now they are going to defend that votann design that they clearly don't really care much about just because they have identified it as something the person they disagree with is against.

 Arbitrator wrote:

Thing about GW hype is you need to read between the lines and dig into how varied opinions are. They could literally reveal a scribble on a bit of paper and half the internet would be calling it the best squiggle ever and they're insanely hyped because "I never knew I needed a squiggle so much before, rip my bank account!!!" It then comes down to how much 'meh' and negativity there is. I don't see much outright hate for the designs we've seen (except the grav-trike) but there's plenty of people who're at best indifferent, dislike it for various reasons or are laughing at how much it looks like a Starcraft marine. Compare the mixed reaction to something like the new Imperial Guard leaks which have largely been overwhelmingly positive, with the occasion "Cadians are boring, I wish it was another regiment" sprinkled here and there. The tone around the Votann reveals seems to be getting increasingly negative even from those who were pretty positive about the initial reveals.

I'm reminded of the Ossiarch reveals for AoS. The reaction to them has a lot of parallels. There's the diehards who'll love anything GW reveals no matter what, the people who think they're fine but were never the target audience, and the crowd who wanted to like them but expected designs closer to the typical fantasy skeleton rather than the Skeletor bone golems we got and were let down and the threads were a real 50-50 split of positivity and negativity. After they were nerfed from their tournament wrecking high their popularity seemed to settle somewhere on the middle-lower end, not unpopular but not one you expected to see on every other table. I'd guess the Votann will find a similar place depending on how expensive they are, more popular than GSC if their pricing isn't too crazy but rubbing shoulders with the non-Eldar Xenos races for popularity.

.

The kind of people picking guardsman over Ogryn, are the kind of people who are going to find more appeal in the Squats than Kharadron Overlords.

The community also went ballistic over Primaris, but they are one of the best selling and most popular units despite the community being ten times more "divided" and ten times louder on them than over the squats.

Loudness of controversy isn't a good way to get a read, especially as complaining is the most powerful motivator to comment on the internet. (cough)

Reading between the lines means looking past the loudest voices. If you look past the loudest voices you find people love the designs.

No, GW couldn't release a scribble on a bit of paper and people would be calling it the best ever and insanely hyped. Have you not seen the community in the last 9 months? It's been incredibly hostile to GW over the animation mess and has only recently started to improve. If GW did that then the community would be knives out for blood.

My read is that they are going to be popular and sell well. I've seen at least like twenty to thirty times the number of people saying they are planning to buy the squats than I saw around something like the Ossiarchs and for sure around the recent Imperial Guard update.

I guess I only have to wait to see if I am proven right or not, it shouldn't be that long until the release. Tick Tock.?

I'm allowed to like them, and other people are allowed to dislike them. And none of us have any obligation to show some argument why. I like the color blue, too. I'm not gonna go out of my way to make some case for why that's reasonable. It's my taste, and no one else is a gatekeeper for it.

Be a nicer place if that was good enough and I didn't get typecast into being some drooling smooth-brain consumer by a handful of remarkably vitriolic people.

Personally I hate the lore and the models are so where between boring and bad.

I’m not a fan, I don’t think, but I like it quite a bit more in the same scheme as the other infantry (photo from Twitter):

I guess I must be a unicorn of sorts, because I like the idea of Dwarves in space, and I think that what GW have produced is a tasteful nod towards that archetype. The more that I look at all of the models shown so far, the more that I like them, honestly.

But I also think it's probably good to remember that the LoV are supposed to be more than just Dwarves in space. Among other things, they are a relatively "rational" faction, with a sound grasp of the technology they're using (and presumably the science behind it, also). Honestly, this is a pretty dwarfish characteristic, it seems to me - an evolution of the "master craftsman" archetype for a sci-fi setting, and specifically the 40k setting, where the biggest faction is characterized by a complete degeneration of scientific knowledge. Given that, it makes sense to me that their arms and armour would be functional first and foremost, with small gestures towards their culture.

Just my thoughts, though. Really liking the new Ernest Hemingway Guard.

...actually, the only thing that I don't like about the faction so far is the silly proprietary spelling. :p

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Infact, I can't recall anyone really saying it's actually a good realization of the Dwarf archetype side of their aesthetic specifically. A lot the "praise" has been from the sort of people who don't like the Dwarf archetype at all and keep repeating "The Lack of Dwarf theming is good, Dwarfs don't runes and Nordic elements!" and don't want Space Dwarfs to be Space Dwarfs.

This would fit my thoughts about the matter. Even as a collector of old miniatures, I'm not interested in "the Dwarf archetype" anymore, or want a new take on it, in the same way as I wouldn't want for GW to try to recapture the madcap silliness of 2nd edition orks, or the anarchic Judge Dredd aesthetics of 1st edition Space Marine artwork. It'd be incongruous to where the game is right now to bring back Squats like they'd never gone away (and I've never much cared for other explorations of the dwarf archetype in science fiction settings either).

My love for the original Squat models isn't because they're Dwarves, it's because they're rare, collectible, somewhat valuable, and represent an earlier phase of the game's development. I never wanted them back, or acknowledged by the lore.

The Leagues so far have garnered praise from me because a) they appear to be a standalone faction instead of some Imperial or Tau adjunct, b) they're strongly non-Imperial in their acceptance of artificial intelligence despite this being borderline suicidal and invoking the wrath of the Cog, c) the Ironkin being treated as equal to meatbags is an interesting idea, and d) they make a lot of people really angry.

In terms of specific praise for the miniatures, I like the Hearthguard look good, a fine evolution of the eggs-on-legs powersuit even if it wears its inspirations on its big armored sleeves - not that GW would ever admit to them. Someone elsewhere noted that the big shoulders and mecha-spine could also be a nod towards that one proto-Terminator everyone likes calling a "Saturnine", though I think that's unlikely myself. Too few 40k armies use wrist-blades like that, anyway - even if they remind me of the butler in Hudson Hawk.

I'm now more keen than before to see League vehicles. Are Hearthguard expected to jog to battle, or will they get some kind of gunship or APC to get them there in a jiffy? Teleportation is possible too, I suppose, but that'd invite the Space Marine Terminator comparison even stronger, and would be a mistake in my opinion.

Well I think to answer some of the above posts you have to consider the background of the Squats and the GW range as a whole. First, you can't have them look too dwarfy specifically because of the AoS Kharadons. Now I know that sounds incredibly stupid because of the Stormcasts being fantasy space marines and that most of the 40k races are fantasy ported to the future. But, I will guarantee that will have been a major design point early on. GW is under different regimes here and clearly they're trying to make the ranges all different. Original AoS being a manky pile of futuristic fantasy is the gak filled bed they have to lie in now.

Second, which really ties into the first, when the original Squats were out they didn't sell well. Jes Goodwin and others really didn't like the range and when it came down to it they were nixed early on. Now obviously time has passed and actually some people do like the old Squats but that remains a small amount. Again, I think fear of a Squats release repeat will have led to the design shifting fairly far from "Dwarfy".

With the fairly recent Necromunda Squat character releases (was that 2017 or something?), that was a clear design choice that placed them in the universe. So when the Votanni were being finalised, it was clear they had to make them look very different to the Squats.

I get the impression the problems are down to having a starting idea of "Squats but as Demiurg". Jes Goodwin created some concepts for the Demiurg years ago and said that maybe they would come back

I reckon Mentlegen is spot on here, I think the design ideas have been in the background for a while and the archived Squat folder was brought out, dusted off and these were the choices made. Thinking of them more as Demiurg is a better way of considering them. And in fact if they had just gone solely down that route, the design choices would make more sense. BUT. They couldn't do that because people would have equally messed their frillies because they weren't Squats. I'd suggest part of the reason for the "blandness" is that GW were clearly trying to not go to far one way or the other. The end result is therefore something that leaves you with a bowl of porridge. I guess that's the problem with trying to be a centrist

People are saying they don't like the "generic sci fi" look of them, but in the 40k universe, that's different enough to make them standout.
I think overall, the right design choices were made, it was bolder to go with something different than to rehash the "Space Dwarves".

Now, personally, I quite like how they look. Or more specifically, I like how they look enough and I know they'll look better when I do some simple conversions and give them a good colour scheme. The general background new lore of the Votanni is the most interesting part, everything else can be changed to fit your own preferences, that's the cool part of Warhammer to me.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 stonehorse wrote:
I just don't get how the designs were approved, how were they allowed to get this far.

Nothing about them helps them to tell their story about who they are.

Eldar, soul stones, ornate slender exotic weapons and armour, lots of curved lines. Designs that help tell their story.

Marines, purity seals, big bulky functional weapons and armour.

Tyranids, 6 limbs, all organic.

Orks, cobbled together, ramshackle, and brutal looking.

Etc.

There is so far very little in what we have seen that helps show us who they are... which is Dwarfs in space.

But they have animal backpack icons! because that's totally something that is part of the Dwarf aesthetic and it's not like there would be something more fitting for an army that worships ancient AI in the shape of giant heads, has a Dwarf/Votann head as their faction icon, has wall decoration stylized on Dwarf/Votann faces, and revere their ancestors....

Well maybe GW didn't want to do literal walking Votann heads because Mantic already done it
https://www.manticgames.com/games/deadzone/forge-fathers/forge-fathers-forge-guard/

 warboss wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, as much as I dislike Kharadons, they at least look distinct and you can tell they are meant to be dwarfs.

Here, they just look like short terran marines with a couple of decals slapped onto them. Very uninspiring and kind of bland.

I'll say it won't take the 3d modelling community more than 72 hours post official release/in hand to have variant metal bearded helmets up for sale/download.

...I mean...


...yeah? ^^

 ImAGeek wrote:
I’m not a fan, I don’t think, but I like it quite a bit more in the same scheme as the other infantry (photo from Twitter):

Agreed, I think the paint scheme chosen for these models is a large factor in a lot of the feedback here. Different colour choices would be a big improvement.

 crumby_cataphract wrote:
I guess I must be a unicorn of sorts, because I like the idea of Dwarves in space, and I think that what GW have produced is a tasteful nod towards that archetype. The more that I look at all of the models shown so far, the more that I like them, honestly.

But I also think it's probably good to remember that the LoV are supposed to be more than just Dwarves in space. Among other things, they are a relatively "rational" faction, with a sound grasp of the technology they're using (and presumably the science behind it, also). Honestly, this is a pretty dwarfish characteristic, it seems to me - an evolution of the "master craftsman" archetype for a sci-fi setting, and specifically the 40k setting, where the biggest faction is characterized by a complete degeneration of scientific knowledge. Given that, it makes sense to me that their arms and armour would be functional first and foremost, with small gestures towards their culture.

Just my thoughts, though. Really liking the new Ernest Hemingway Guard.

...actually, the only thing that I don't like about the faction so far is the silly proprietary spelling. :p

Same, particularly the hover trike. My opinion of it has risen each time I go back to it, I was kinda eh on it originally.

This design is very good. The only thing that really bothered me is the head, which is why I photoshoped it out to see how it looks. This really needed a beard and a badass when they originally showed it off. I assume they have different head options in the kit. Sunglasses, beard, massive shotty. The combination of 1950s atom-punk cast metal that has complex curving planes and concave points combined with the almost post apocalypse feel of the the leather duster and big feth off shotgun. The shovel on the back for prospecting as they scout out new locations for mines. They knew exactly what they were doing painting it that green, making it reminiscent of both DAoT, atompunk and the kinds of post apocalypse robots that you see in Fallout. It gives it an almost old vibe while also feeling futuristic.

I really like their take on dwarves, as you said, they feel more rational. Like they functionally live inside the 40k universe first and foremost.





And chuck a monster carcass in the back after slaying it with the shotty to haul off and sell to the local system trader.

 xttz wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I’m not a fan, I don’t think, but I like it quite a bit more in the same scheme as the other infantry (photo from Twitter):

Agreed, I think the paint scheme chosen for these models is a large factor in a lot of the feedback here. Different colour choices would be a big improvement.

Yeah, whilst hospital greens w/labcoat is certainly a look, is it a good look?

That version of the Necromunda squats in deep red with a white stripe down the centreline was bold and impactful and probably pretty easy to do at scale with the new contrasts and washes. Maybe try that on the Votann?

 Albertorius wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, as much as I dislike Kharadons, they at least look distinct and you can tell they are meant to be dwarfs.

Here, they just look like short terran marines with a couple of decals slapped onto them. Very uninspiring and kind of bland.

I'll say it won't take the 3d modelling community more than 72 hours post official release/in hand to have variant metal bearded helmets up for sale/download.

...I mean...

Spoiler:

...yeah? ^^

Ooh, those are pretty. I like them a lot more than GW's models, but tastes differ.

Plenty about those renders I don't like, but they're extremely well (and quickly) executed alternatives. The tactical axe with the prybar attachments is wonderful.

 crumby_cataphract wrote:
I guess I must be a unicorn of sorts, because I like the idea of Dwarves in space, and I think that what GW have produced is a tasteful nod towards that archetype. The more that I look at all of the models shown so far, the more that I like them, honestly.

But I also think it's probably good to remember that the LoV are supposed to be more than just Dwarves in space. Among other things, they are a relatively "rational" faction, with a sound grasp of the technology they're using (and presumably the science behind it, also). Honestly, this is a pretty dwarfish characteristic, it seems to me - an evolution of the "master craftsman" archetype for a sci-fi setting, and specifically the 40k setting, where the biggest faction is characterized by a complete degeneration of scientific knowledge. Given that, it makes sense to me that their arms and armour would be functional first and foremost, with small gestures towards their culture.

Just my thoughts, though. Really liking the new Ernest Hemingway Guard.

...actually, the only thing that I don't like about the faction so far is the silly proprietary spelling. :p

I've not really seen many people say the fluff doesn't feel like dwarves in space. There's been the occasional "wow I love the lore because it's not dwarves in space!" which just feels like a desperate reactionary response to people saying they don't like the lack of grimdarkness but on a whole I've not seen much disagreement about the lore feeling like dwarves in space.

The problem with the lack of distinctive dwarfiness is in the models. If they weren't in dwarf bodies people would have a lot of trouble differentiating them from a 3D printed proxy marine army.

 crumby_cataphract wrote:
. Given that, it makes sense to me that their arms and armour would be functional first and foremost, with small gestures towards their culture.

And the problem is they don't even have "small gestures towards their culture". Whether you like it or not, the Dwarf aesthetic is the direction for the Leagues culture in terms of its look, and we've been told that lore-wise their heritage, culture, the Votann and Ancestors all are extremely important to them. That's great, in-line with what you'd expected of the Space Dwarfs they undeniably are meant to be.

But then we have models that don't actually show that well at all. Not even to the same extent as the Tau, Necrons or Genestealer Cults.

As I pointed out, Grendl Grendlsen has not been stated to be from the Leagues, albeit it is sort of implied. He has far more League-themed decoration (a whole 3 small Dwarf face icons in fairly reasonable places) than the Leagues basic infantry themselves do.

 Albertorius wrote:

 warboss wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Yeah, as much as I dislike Kharadons, they at least look distinct and you can tell they are meant to be dwarfs.

Here, they just look like short terran marines with a couple of decals slapped onto them. Very uninspiring and kind of bland.

I'll say it won't take the 3d modelling community more than 72 hours post official release/in hand to have variant metal bearded helmets up for sale/download.

...I mean...

Spoiler:

...yeah? ^^

I like the Papiskels biker. I'd have preferred an option where it's more of a two wheels in the front hover trike to differentiate it from the official plastic kit. I had to check out the other offerings after you posted this and they're pretty awesome (especially the more body horror engineers!).

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

As I pointed out, Grendl Grendlsen has not been stated to be from the Leagues, albeit it is sort of implied. He has far more League-themed decoration (a whole 3 small Dwarf face icons in fairly reasonable places) than the Leagues basic infantry themselves do.

Not every random face is "League-themed decoration". Sometimes a face is just a face.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

As I pointed out, Grendl Grendlsen has not been stated to be from the Leagues, albeit it is sort of implied. He has far more League-themed decoration (a whole 3 small Dwarf face icons in fairly reasonable places) than the Leagues basic infantry themselves do.

Not every random face is "League-themed decoration". Sometimes a face is just a face.

Missing the point entirely. You are aware that the Leagues worship AI in the shape of Giant heads, that they have a Dwarf/Votann head as their faction icon, and even have it as decoration on their walls, and have the whole Ancestor reverence thing, right? A guy who hasn't even been said to actually be part of the Leagues includes more that's in-line with the sort of thing that would show the Leagues culture on the models than than they have themselves. Whether Grendls actually are that or not is irrelevant.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 crumby_cataphract wrote:
. Given that, it makes sense to me that their arms and armour would be functional first and foremost, with small gestures towards their culture.

And the problem is they don't even have "small gestures towards their culture". Whether you like it or not, the Dwarf aesthetic is the direction for the Leagues culture in terms of its look, and we've been told that lore-wise their heritage, culture, the Votann and Ancestors all are extremely important to them. That's great, in-line with what you'd expected of the Space Dwarfs they undeniably are meant to be.

But then we have models that don't actually show that well at all. Not even to the same extent as the Tau, Necrons or Genestealer Cults.

As I pointed out, Grendl Grendlsen has not been stated to be from the Leagues, albeit it is sort of implied. He has far more League-themed decoration (a whole 3 small Dwarf face icons in fairly reasonable places) than the Leagues basic infantry themselves do.

If you looked at only eldar guardians, wraith guard and a bike would you get a sense of elf-ness? I don't think so - the visual richness of the range comes from the whole range- the Avatar, the Warlocks, the Farseer and the variety of the aspects. We have still only seen two units and one bike and not even all the options to those. We have seen no characters or any of the rest of the range. seeing these things in isolation also distorts the feel of the faction.
Also the original squats did not have large beards or ancestor runes/marks/masks other than the warlord and the exo suits [which also didn't have legs just feet].
Grendelson looks to me like a complete cliche which the big beard, ancestor faces and imperial weapons - its a throw back to an old idea to me. Again there are folks who love that look- they are very invested In the old school look, so these are bound to disappoint them.
The build of a model totally suggested its origins - ive got the new squat prospectors [which look a lot better in real life] and they have no ancestor markings or big beards and they definitely have a dwarf quality.
I get these didn't float float your boat and you were expecting something else but personally, as a dwarf collector fro years I'm delighted. They have done what I hoped and created a dwarf like culture in space which is exhibiting a sense of high tech capabilities. They are their own thing, the design queues referencing an early shared heritage with humanity without the baroque over stylings of dogged religion of the Imperium.
The criticism that they look like Terran marines is incredibly lazy - there are similarities yes because they both are humanoid figures with fitted sci-fi plate armour, they also both have shared heritage that the Terrans are an altered space marine design and the Votann have a shared tech heritage with the Imperium. But beyond that the armour designs are very different- even the bubble helmets are different - the Terrans have an astronaut type helm and the Kin have a heavy shield with a designed eye visor. The chest, leg and feet armour is a totally different design.

I like that GW did what they did with the Kharadron and took them in their own direction, imagining what a dwarf like culture would be in space, developed in isolation from humanity with their tech intact. My impression is that, yes some folks are disappointed they don't look "dwarf" enough and thats fine, a good few folk are very excited by them and I think they will do well. The Kharadron got a similar reaction when they arrived and they seem to be very popular.
we haven't seen everything and I'm not saying they might not massively drop the ball with the rest of the release but I'm pretty confident with what I've seen, especially with a different scheme and a little converting as all factions need, they will look brilliant and stand apart from other factions in 40k.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

As I pointed out, Grendl Grendlsen has not been stated to be from the Leagues, albeit it is sort of implied. He has far more League-themed decoration (a whole 3 small Dwarf face icons in fairly reasonable places) than the Leagues basic infantry themselves do.

Not every random face is "League-themed decoration". Sometimes a face is just a face.

Missing the point entirely. You are aware that the Leagues worship AI in the shape of Giant heads, that they have a Dwarf/Votann head as their faction icon, and even have it as decoration on their walls, and have the whole Ancestor reverence thing, right? A guy who hasn't even been said to actually be part of the Leagues includes more that's in-line with the sort of thing that would show the Leagues culture on the models than than they have themselves. Whether Grendls actually are that or not is irrelevant.

You are missing the point that they are described as pragmatic and not superstitious so they aren't likely add lots of Votann icons to their armour the way imperium factions do. Plus the cog icon etc might be what represents specific Votann. The Ancestor faces could well pop up with the heroes or the larger vehicles. The art does seem to suggest a few heroes might have something similar to ancestor masks.

As someone who's pragmatic and not superstitious IRL, I find the lack of ornamentation to not be a major problem. If my unlikely theory about the dark secret of the Votann is correct, it'd even be pretty flavorful.

What dark secret? GW told us there ain't no dark secret, they big AI brains are just falling apart. Without them, they'd still be very noble and tolerant and technically advanced.

 ImAGeek wrote:
I’m not a fan, I don’t think, but I like it quite a bit more in the same scheme as the other infantry (photo from Twitter):

Yeah, the monocolor paint scheme they want with doesn't do any favor to the models.
Imagine an ultramarine all solid blue with no other colors.

 (HN) wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
I’m not a fan, I don’t think, but I like it quite a bit more in the same scheme as the other infantry (photo from Twitter):

Yeah, the monocolor paint scheme they want with doesn't do any favor to the models.
Imagine an ultramarine all solid blue with no other colors.

You mean, like this one?

More I stare at these new Votann, less I like them. I like that they're high tech, but the massive shoulders & scify power armour makes them just short primaris marines. And I love primaris marines, but I don't think that's a good look for squats. Necromunda squats have far better dwarfy silhouette.

 Olthannon wrote:
With the fairly recent Necromunda Squat character releases (was that 2017 or something?), that was a clear design choice that placed them in the universe. So when the Votanni were being finalised, it was clear they had to make them look very different to the Squats.

That doesn't really make sens tho is you conciser the fact that one of the reason they are "bringing back the squats" (votann) is because of how well the squats they have sprinkled in Necromunda were received.
They nailed it that proof of concept and that's why they finally realized that the people memeing about the return of the squats for 3 decades may have been on something after all.

 Albertorius wrote:

...I mean...

Spoiler:

...yeah? ^^

Thos Cyberforge guys are honestly strictly superior to GW design.
I dont even like their armor (which is very close to GW's) but the dwarf heads and mele weapons suddenly make the unit work.

Yes that ultramarine is boring as hell in that scheme although the gold trim does lift it a little..

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

You mean, like this one?

Even worse than that, the marine here have a golden trims on the rim of the shoulders wich really help giving volumes to the thing. Imagine that same mini, but with blue trims and aquilla too.
Imagine a MK5 but without molecular bonds to ad details on the armor.

 (HN) wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

You mean, like this one?

Even worse than that, the marine here have a golden trims on the rim of the shoulders wich really help giving volumes to the thing. Imagine that same mini, but with blue trims and aquilla too.

So a Crimson Fist, got it.

 silverstu wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 crumby_cataphract wrote:
. Given that, it makes sense to me that their arms and armour would be functional first and foremost, with small gestures towards their culture.

And the problem is they don't even have "small gestures towards their culture". Whether you like it or not, the Dwarf aesthetic is the direction for the Leagues culture in terms of its look, and we've been told that lore-wise their heritage, culture, the Votann and Ancestors all are extremely important to them. That's great, in-line with what you'd expected of the Space Dwarfs they undeniably are meant to be.

But then we have models that don't actually show that well at all. Not even to the same extent as the Tau, Necrons or Genestealer Cults.

As I pointed out, Grendl Grendlsen has not been stated to be from the Leagues, albeit it is sort of implied. He has far more League-themed decoration (a whole 3 small Dwarf face icons in fairly reasonable places) than the Leagues basic infantry themselves do.

the original squats did not have large beards or ancestor runes/marks/masks other than the warlord and the exo suits [which also didn't have legs just feet].

Doesn't have much relevance when lot of things back then were lacking in iconography outside of champions/elites. Space Marines and Imperial Guard didn't really have any on their basic infantry, either.

ive got the new squat prospectors [which look a lot better in real life] and they have no ancestor markings or big beards and they definitely have a dwarf quality.

You seem to have somehow completely missed the big bearded skull faction icon on their belt, then.

I get these didn't float float your boat and you were expecting something else but personally, as a dwarf collector fro years I'm delighted. They have done what I hoped and created a dwarf like culture in space which is exhibiting a sense of high tech capabilities. They are their own thing, the design queues referencing an early shared heritage with humanity without the baroque over stylings of dogged religion of the Imperium.
I like that GW did what they did with the Kharadron and took them in their own direction, imagining what a dwarf like culture would be in space, developed in isolation from humanity with their tech intact. My impression is that, yes some folks are disappointed they don't look "dwarf" enough and thats fine, a good few folk are very excited by them and I think they will do well. The Kharadron got a similar reaction when they arrived and they seem to be very popular.

You are missing the point that they are described as pragmatic and not superstitious so they aren't likely add lots of Votann icons to their armour the way imperium factions do. Plus the cog icon etc might be what represents specific Votann. The Ancestor faces could well pop up with the heroes or the larger vehicles. The art does seem to suggest a few heroes might have something similar to ancestor masks.

It's getting a little annoying how being disappointed with the lack of iconography and culture shown keeps getting strawmanned to "You want to stick icons and runes all over them armour in a heavy-handed way!" when it's about wanting small bits of the identity that has already been established as part of the Leagues in both their lore and artwork to be present throughout their range. The Leagues have been said to place a big importance on their culture, heritage, the ancestors and the Votann. So actually show that rather than just telling it. Utterly absurd how wanting at the very least their faction icon on the models in a reasonable place is far too much to some people.

And it's strange to use the "their pragmatic and not superstitious" to try and justify the lack of it when the Theyns are going around with big bulky animal banners over their heads, as well as the whole "Ancestors are always watching" thing.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

It's getting a little annoying how being disappointed with the lack of iconography and culture shown keeps getting strawmanned to "You want to stick icons and runes all over them armour in a heavy-handed way!" when it's about wanting small bits of the identity that has already been established as part of the Leagues in both their lore and artwork to be present throughout their range. The Leagues have been said to place a big importance on their culture, heritage, the ancestors and the Votann. So actually show that rather than just telling it. Utterly absurd how wanting at the very least their faction icon on the models in a reasonable place is far too much to some people.

And it's strange to use the "their pragmatic and not superstitious" to try and justify the lack of it when the Theyns are going around with big bulky animal banners over their heads, as well as the whole "Ancestors are always watching" thing.

First time on DakkaDakka?
You've presented a reasonable argument, which is your first mistake.

Second is wanting a rational debate on the Internet, especially DakkaDakka.

The problem being no faction motifs, small faction motifs and lots of motifs are all valid options

And 2 people looking at the same things can disagree where on that spectrum things lie

There's no real debate to be had. It's just a back and forth of subjectivity.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
What dark secret? GW told us there ain't no dark secret, they big AI brains are just falling apart. Without them, they'd still be very noble and tolerant and technically advanced.

It's just my pet theory I've been drafting up, based on the "Omelas provision", that anything that looks too Utopian must have some horrible, dark, festering terror at the heart of it to be in any way believable and sustainable. As I said, it's not particularly well supported by the facts on the table so far, but we'll see. There's still enough gaps in what we know about the Leagues. If my theory turns out not to be true after all, I will naturally be disappointed since I do consider myself a better writer than the simpletons GW employs, and as such, hold my ideas more highly than theirs. :-)

 silverstu wrote:


If you looked at only eldar guardians, wraith guard and a bike would you get a sense of elf-ness? I don't think so - the visual richness of the range comes from the whole range- the Avatar, the Warlocks, the Farseer and the variety of the aspects. We have still only seen two units and one bike and not even all the options to those. We have seen no characters or any of the rest of the range. seeing these things in isolation also distorts the feel of the faction.
Also the original squats did not have large beards or ancestor runes/marks/masks other than the warlord and the exo suits [which also didn't have legs just feet].
Grendelson looks to me like a complete cliche which the big beard, ancestor faces and imperial weapons - its a throw back to an old idea to me. Again there are folks who love that look- they are very invested In the old school look, so these are bound to disappoint them.
The build of a model totally suggested its origins - ive got the new squat prospectors [which look a lot better in real life] and they have no ancestor markings or big beards and they definitely have a dwarf quality.
I get these didn't float float your boat and you were expecting something else but personally, as a dwarf collector fro years I'm delighted. They have done what I hoped and created a dwarf like culture in space which is exhibiting a sense of high tech capabilities. They are their own thing, the design queues referencing an early shared heritage with humanity without the baroque over stylings of dogged religion of the Imperium.
The criticism that they look like Terran marines is incredibly lazy - there are similarities yes because they both are humanoid figures with fitted sci-fi plate armour, they also both have shared heritage that the Terrans are an altered space marine design and the Votann have a shared tech heritage with the Imperium. But beyond that the armour designs are very different- even the bubble helmets are different - the Terrans have an astronaut type helm and the Kin have a heavy shield with a designed eye visor. The chest, leg and feet armour is a totally different design.

I like that GW did what they did with the Kharadron and took them in their own direction, imagining what a dwarf like culture would be in space, developed in isolation from humanity with their tech intact. My impression is that, yes some folks are disappointed they don't look "dwarf" enough and thats fine, a good few folk are very excited by them and I think they will do well. The Kharadron got a similar reaction when they arrived and they seem to be very popular.
we haven't seen everything and I'm not saying they might not massively drop the ball with the rest of the release but I'm pretty confident with what I've seen, especially with a different scheme and a little converting as all factions need, they will look brilliant and stand apart from other factions in 40k.

Exactly. One of the most reasonable and level headed takes in this entire thread.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:


It's getting a little annoying how being disappointed with the lack of iconography and culture shown keeps getting strawmanned to "You want to stick icons and runes all over them armour in a heavy-handed way!" when it's about wanting small bits of the identity that has already been established as part of the Leagues in both their lore and artwork to be present throughout their range. The Leagues have been said to place a big importance on their culture, heritage, the ancestors and the Votann. So actually show that rather than just telling it. Utterly absurd how wanting at the very least their faction icon on the models in a reasonable place is far too much to some people.

And it's strange to use the "their pragmatic and not superstitious" to try and justify the lack of it when the Theyns are going around with big bulky animal banners over their heads, as well as the whole "Ancestors are always watching" thing.

You keep saying the lore should cause them to have more iconography Mentlegen... But should it?

"These hardy clone warriors form the core of the Kinhosts, and unlike the Adeptus Astartes, they are not bred solely for war. These soldiers are citizens drawn from the populace of the Holds, regardless of gender, job, or social role. They’re Kin who have undergone rigorous martial training, yes, but they also have fulfilling lives outside of war."

The Hearthkyn aren't like the incredibly zealous soldiers of the imperium who live for war, or have no time for anything else. Similarly with most xenos races.

They have families and lives outside of soldiering, they have actual careers in fields other than soldiering, and judging by their tool belt aesthetic it seems likely that they are huge on crafting and building things.

So they are part soldiers part crafters and familymen with other careers. That guy on the trike I photoshopped is not just a soldier, but a woodsman and big game hunter too, a frontiersman.

It's broadly true that crafters and part-time civilians and hunters etc outside of a military have less use or like for patriotic iconography than the pure zealous soldier fighting a righteous war.

This seems like a pretty good lore explanation honestly. And judging by how carefully and thought out this faction has been so far? I think this could be the intent.

The higher you rise in the military the less time you have for the civilian stuff, and the more draped in honour and prestige and iconography you become, the more you become a hardcore soldier like in other factions.

It really seems like the Votann functionally live inside the 40k universe first and foremost.




Considering how the models we have seen so far seem to be matching the concept art fairly closely, I'd assume that a general or named character is going to look very dwarfy.

Such as this guy:

 Olthannon wrote:


Second, which really ties into the first, when the original Squats were out they didn't sell well. Jes Goodwin and others really didn't like the range and when it came down to it they were nixed early on. Now obviously time has passed and actually some people do like the old Squats but that remains a small amount. Again, I think fear of a Squats release repeat will have led to the design shifting fairly far from "Dwarfy".

They sold more than several other lines. The leathercoats on bikes idea just didn't appeal to anybody on studio as squats had failed to evoke dwarf feel then.

So funnily enough not going dwarf style they are risking repeating what got squats squatted in the first place.

derpherp wrote:

Considering how the models we have seen so far seem to be matching the concept art fairly closely, I'd assume that a general or named character is going to look very dwarfy.

Such as this guy:

Hey, wait a minute, are the big bulky guys in the back supposed to be the Hearthkyn Exosuits? Why didn't they go with that design? I like it much better, the shoulderpads don't feel so out of place

It would be a mistake to read too much into similarities between an event that happened over 30 years ago, and the Leagues' potential sales potential today. Die Welt is nicht wie sie war.

Has it been said anywhere if the Einhyr Hearthguard are going to be along the lines of terminator equivalents rather than power armour equivalents?

tneva82 wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:


Second, which really ties into the first, when the original Squats were out they didn't sell well. Jes Goodwin and others really didn't like the range and when it came down to it they were nixed early on. Now obviously time has passed and actually some people do like the old Squats but that remains a small amount. Again, I think fear of a Squats release repeat will have led to the design shifting fairly far from "Dwarfy".

They sold more than several other lines. The leathercoats on bikes idea just didn't appeal to anybody on studio as squats had failed to evoke dwarf feel then.

So funnily enough not going dwarf style they are risking repeating what got squats squatted in the first place.

I've seen a lot people claim "They were removed for being fantasy Dwarfs in space!" when the reason they were removed was supposedly the opposite; the Silly bikers named Squats thing turned the proud, noble fantasy Dwarf archetype into a joke rather than being a serious take on it.

Aye, that explanation is in the Jervis letter - and I think it was either in that, or in a Q&A, where he confirmed that sales definitely weren't the reason for what happened to them.

Interesting alternate colour schemes some people made of the new Exo suits

I'd like to see a gold and white one with gold on the shoulders and a pure white.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Has it been said anywhere if the Einhyr Hearthguard are going to be along the lines of terminator equivalents rather than power armour equivalents?

tneva82 wrote:

 Olthannon wrote:


Second, which really ties into the first, when the original Squats were out they didn't sell well. Jes Goodwin and others really didn't like the range and when it came down to it they were nixed early on. Now obviously time has passed and actually some people do like the old Squats but that remains a small amount. Again, I think fear of a Squats release repeat will have led to the design shifting fairly far from "Dwarfy".

They sold more than several other lines. The leathercoats on bikes idea just didn't appeal to anybody on studio as squats had failed to evoke dwarf feel then.

So funnily enough not going dwarf style they are risking repeating what got squats squatted in the first place.

I've seen a lot people claim "They were removed for being fantasy Dwarfs in space!" when the reason they were removed was supposedly the opposite; the Silly bikers named Squats thing turned the proud, noble fantasy Dwarf archetype into a joke rather than being a serious take on it.

Is it? Well, consider me mistaken. Well! Forget roughly half of what I said

Still, I think the main thing was they didn't want to do the same as before.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
Has it been said anywhere if the Einhyr Hearthguard are going to be along the lines of terminator equivalents rather than power armour equivalents?

I'm assuming they're the heaviest infantry in the range, since they seem so much more armored-up than any other faction's power armor. If they have an even heavier "suit", I could see that being an Ironkin in a task-customized chassis, like the WarCom writeup hinted at them using. But I don't think there's been anything concrete. We didn't really know about the existence of the Hearthguard until the article dropped, for example - although I think we were all expecting some kind of heavy exo-armor unit to show up eventually.

My speculations for Heathguard:
T4, 2+ save, 3 wounds, takes -1 damage.

Wow love the Orange colour!
I think these will be so fun to paint with contrasts too.
Nice areas to just paint as you will with not many meddling boring ornamentations.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Wow love the Orange colour!
I think these will be so fun to paint with contrasts too.
Nice areas to just paint as you will with not many meddling boring ornamentations.

Flat panels are less boring that panels with ornamentation? OK, then...

 Dysartes wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Wow love the Orange colour!
I think these will be so fun to paint with contrasts too.
Nice areas to just paint as you will with not many meddling boring ornamentations.

Flat panels are less boring that panels with ornamentation? OK, then...

Maybe NAVARRO likes to do freehand(?)

 Dysartes wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Wow love the Orange colour!
I think these will be so fun to paint with contrasts too.
Nice areas to just paint as you will with not many meddling boring ornamentations.

Flat panels are less boring that panels with ornamentation? OK, then...

Try to paint a gradient around an ornament or on a flat surface... then multiply that by 10 or more depending on how many armour plates with ornaments the mini has and then come back to me.

On a purely aesthetically perspective though yes the more specific you make something the more repetitive it gets once you have multiples of the same thing.

 MinscS2 wrote:
My speculations for Heathguard:
T4, 2+ save, 3 wounds, takes -1 damage.

T5.
GW has totally forgoten what the stating is supposed to be in that game, random orcs have now T5, there's no way these guys don't have it too.

 (HN) wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:
My speculations for Heathguard:
T4, 2+ save, 3 wounds, takes -1 damage.

T5.
GW has totally forgoten what the stating is supposed to be in that game, random orcs have now T5, there's no way these guys don't have it too.

Yeah I was thinking T5 first as well, but regular LoV troops are T4.

Of course, Space Marines are T4 base too, but have both T4 (Terminator) and T5 (Gravis) heavy armour-units, so who knows.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Wow love the Orange colour!
I think these will be so fun to paint with contrasts too.
Nice areas to just paint as you will with not many meddling boring ornamentations.

Those shoulder panels are begging for customisation for sure, it will be interesting to see what people do with them.

derpherp wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
Wow love the Orange colour!
I think these will be so fun to paint with contrasts too.
Nice areas to just paint as you will with not many meddling boring ornamentations.

Those shoulder panels are begging for customisation for sure, it will be interesting to see what people do with them.

Indeed, these minis are just an open canvas and a joy for painting, they look as well balanced as the first primaris.
Space for gradients, freehands and decals is a big plus in my book.

Like I said these look like awesome to try out those new contrasts with metallics etc.

I just noticed that the chest ornamentation looks a bit like an eye... so who needs a head? ...

I have no idea why they thought making that post was a good idea ngl.
The only thing it does is hammering home how much better, flavorful and unique the squat designs are compared to the votann.

I'm also wondering if they have any plan at all to put the squats in the votann codex or not. I keep hearing that the scale is different between Necromunda and 40k (which is mindblowingly stupid from GW ngl) but is the difference big enough to have them just not fit at all?

The very... deliberate choice of giving them the exact same colors-heme seems more than just a random coincidence ngl.

Also, random nitpick but that logo they have put on the chest of the squat reminds me a LOT of the Xcom logo.

Edit: Ho yeah, and also apparently some repurposed mining gear from a backwater abhuman group is on par with the top of the line of the Votann and their golden age of technology.
Great writing here GW.

How are the squats on Necromunda backwater? Necromunda doesn’t have open water.

But really, just because they’ve been there for ten thousand years, doesn’t mean they forgot how to make the good stuff, or that they weren’t in contact with their home world.

I’m just curious about what’s going to happen when they finish the job and present the invoice…

 (HN) wrote:


I have no idea why they thought making that post was a good idea ngl.
The only thing it does is hammering home how much better, flavorful and unique the squat designs are compared to the votann.

How so? Neither particularly stand out to me. They have some overlap and clear influences that can be traced back decades (the Squat suit more to the old Squat egg-suits, the Votann suit to fairly generic 4e D&D and Warcraft dwarf armor designs, among other things)

But I wouldn't characterize either as unique, or better. The flavor is pretty standard 40k power armor/dreads.

It just proves that the Squat genotype has hyper mobile hip joints, while the Votann went more for the shoulders…

Personally I prefer the Votann suit as the Squat thingy looks too much like a crab for my liking.

Voss wrote:

How so? Neither particularly stand out to me. They have some overlap and clear influences that can be traced back decades (the Squat suit more to the old Squat egg-suits, the Votann suit to fairly generic 4e D&D and Warcraft dwarf armor designs, among other things)

But I wouldn't characterize either as unique, or better. The flavor is pretty standard 40k power armor/dreads.

Didn't you answer you own question?

How is the squat armor that trace its style more from... THE OLDER SQUATS more unique than the votan which is "fairly generic 4e D&D and Warcraft dwarf"?
How one thing that is that is a throwback to an older version of the squats and has a pretty unique look more unique than something that (in your own words) is fairly generic?

Cmon now.

Also, I'll have to disagree on the D&D and Warcraft Dwarf thing here, while it's indeed failry generic, it's not dwarvish at all and instead very, VERY close to generic scifi and Starcraft designs(which has some similar artstyle to warcraft, true).
Hell, I can't unsee the pretty big parallel with the Doom Eternal Slayer design now with that random wrist blade and green armor.

You are perfectly allowed to like the Votann, but please don't be disingenuous and try to pretend they are as original, flavorful or unqiue than the squat on that picture.

 (HN) wrote:


I have no idea why they thought making that post was a good idea ngl.
The only thing it does is hammering home how much better, flavorful and unique the squat designs are compared to the votann.

I'm also wondering if they have any plan at all to put the squats in the votann codex or not. I keep hearing that the scale is different between Necromunda and 40k (which is mindblowingly stupid from GW ngl) but is the difference big enough to have them just not fit at all?

I actually like it. It is a way of having the best of both worlds in my opinion and giving us instantly two flavours of a faction (which is something some other factions desperately need, like the Sisters of Battle for example).

Talking about the "Scale". Squats are about a head shorter compared to guard models, which is fitting. I'm surprised this image hasn't been shared on this site that often.



One more point. I'm tired of people saying that Necromunda is a different scale. It is not. Comparisons made with the Necromunda always focuses on factions that kind of justify their size. The only outlier in this are the enforcers, and they are the same size as Sororitas.

Goliath are in-everything-but name to be considered abhumans.

Escher are wearing high-heels and high headdresses, which on a model with "hero-scale proportions" is going to make them quite tall

Delaque are so mysteriously remote from humans it is unknown if they still are considered humans.

The rest are the same size as Genestealer cult neophytes.

Are we sure the exo driller is forgeworld?

 NAVARRO wrote:
Are we sure the exo driller is forgeworld?

I don't think we actually know, but since it's a gang-specific Brute, it wouldn't be out of left field.

Let's just cross fingers it is plastic.

 Segersgia wrote:


One more point. I'm tired of people saying that Necromunda is a different scale. It is not. Comparisons made with the Necromunda always focuses on factions that kind of justify their size. The only outlier in this are the enforcers, and they are the same size as Sororitas.

Thanks for the pic and precision, I always thought very... strange that they would have changed the scale of Necromunda.
That said, they did change the scale of Cursed City as they are WAY bigger than the 40k scale so it wouldn't have surprised me that much if they fudged Necromunda scale too for some odd reasons.

 (HN) wrote:

Voss wrote:

How so? Neither particularly stand out to me. They have some overlap and clear influences that can be traced back decades (the Squat suit more to the old Squat egg-suits, the Votann suit to fairly generic 4e D&D and Warcraft dwarf armor designs, among other things)

But I wouldn't characterize either as unique, or better. The flavor is pretty standard 40k power armor/dreads.

Didn't you answer you own question?

How is the squat armor that trace its style more from... THE OLDER SQUATS more unique than the votan which is "fairly generic 4e D&D and Warcraft dwarf"?
How one thing that is that is a throwback to an older version of the squats and has a pretty unique look more unique than something that (in your own words) is fairly generic?

I did not. Mostly because the old squats didn't have a unique look. They were a mix of old WFB dwarf stuff (which were designed to be generic tolkien-to-D&D dwarfs) mixed with 40k imperial guard. Old warhammer wasn't supposed to be unique, they were deliberately drawing on existing pop culture patterns.

Also, I'll have to disagree on the D&D and Warcraft Dwarf thing here, while it's indeed failry generic, it's not dwarvish at all and instead very, VERY close to generic scifi and Starcraft designs(which has some similar artstyle to warcraft, true).

So you disagree but its true?

Hell, I can't unsee the pretty big parallel with the Doom Eternal Slayer design now with that random wrist blade and green armor.

Ah, yes. Green armor and wrist blades. That's certainly distinctive.

You are perfectly allowed to like the Votann, but please don't be disingenuous and try to pretend they are as original, flavorful or unqiue than the squat on that picture.

This was directed at someone else, yeah?
But still, you haven't given any reason the squat model is 'original, flavorful or unique.' I get that you like it (and that's fine). But... those particular adjectives just don't line up with what is a pretty basic (mini)dreadnought. with flamer and power fist.

Voss wrote:

 (HN) wrote:

Voss wrote:

How so? Neither particularly stand out to me. They have some overlap and clear influences that can be traced back decades (the Squat suit more to the old Squat egg-suits, the Votann suit to fairly generic 4e D&D and Warcraft dwarf armor designs, among other things)

But I wouldn't characterize either as unique, or better. The flavor is pretty standard 40k power armor/dreads.

Didn't you answer you own question?

How is the squat armor that trace its style more from... THE OLDER SQUATS more unique than the votan which is "fairly generic 4e D&D and Warcraft dwarf"?
How one thing that is that is a throwback to an older version of the squats and has a pretty unique look more unique than something that (in your own words) is fairly generic?

They were a mix of old WFB dwarf stuff (which were designed to be generic tolkien-to-D&D dwarfs)

You mean the Space Dwarfs were themed around Dwarfs. Those aspects aren't "generic" when they're part of what makes up the whole idea in the first place.

 (HN) wrote:

Thanks for the pic and precision, I always thought very... strange that they would have changed the scale of Necromunda.
That said, they did change the scale of Cursed City as they are WAY bigger than the 40k scale so it wouldn't have surprised me that much if they fudged Necromunda scale too for some odd reasons.

At the end of the day, the scale of miniatures that are outliers can "lorewise" be explained through a variety of reasons. In settings as big as 40k or AoS, stuff is going to diverge from normal human height. In AoS it is because of magic and blessings, while in 40k, it is mutations, or the effects of rejuvenant/genetic treatments, or even just the living conditions of the planet they originate from. It is why people still can't decide on the size of Firstborn Space Marines (which in my opinion is 7ft/2.10 metres).

Voss wrote:
I did not. Mostly because the old squats didn't have a unique look. They were a mix of old WFB dwarf stuff (which were designed to be generic tolkien-to-D&D dwarfs) mixed with 40k imperial guard. Old warhammer wasn't supposed to be unique, they were deliberately drawing on existing pop culture patterns.

That's not what I'm saying. The new squats are actually way more unique because they are trying udpate the old Squats design to fit in the modern 40k setting while still trying to stay true to their old look and making them look distinctive on their own right. The Votann are as you've said yourself, painfully generic.

Voss wrote:
So you disagree but its true?

I mean, I know you are trying to be a nitpicky contrarian for some reasons, but at least pay attention to what I say.
I'm not saying its true, I'm saying it's clearly not "dwarvish" (either from D&D or Warcraft) and instead very close to Starcraft (which has some similarity in ART STYLE, but not design).

Voss wrote:
Ah, yes. Green armor and wrist blades. That's certainly distinctive.

See you are doing it again, being intentionally obtuse for some weird reason.

Voss wrote:

But still, you haven't given any reason the squat model is 'original, flavorful or unique.' I get that you like it (and that's fine). But... those particular adjectives just don't line up with what is a pretty basic (mini)dreadnought. with flamer and power fist.

I didn't because it was self evident to anyone that didn't intentional go out of it's way to be dense.
Look at that Exo-Driller. Is it a lazy retread of something else to the point of instantly thinking"Oh yeah, that's X"? Do you think it's out of place in a space dwarf mining faction?

I don't know about you, but the the answer to all that is a clear no.
No, it's not an obvious lazy retread and no it doesn't look out of place in a space dwarf mining faction, two things the votan is guilty of.

Also, one thing that this exo-driller does very well is to fit in the "old 40k" style, since it has some similarity to the old Saturnine Pattern Tactical Dreadnought Armour in its general shape and its legs, which makes sens since this armour was also a repurposed hazard equipment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Segersgia wrote:
At the end of the day, the scale of miniatures that are outliers can "lorewise" be explained through a variety of reasons. In settings as big as 40k or AoS, stuff is going to diverge from normal human height. In AoS it is because of magic and blessings, while in 40k, it is mutations, or the effects of rejuvenant/genetic treatments, or even just the living conditions of the planet they originate from. It is why people still can't decide on the size of Firstborn Space Marines (which in my opinion is 7ft/2.10 metres).

In theory yes, but thos Cursed city guys are REALLY too tall to fit convincingly in 40K I got them to build some Blackstone Fotress fanmade new rogue traders, but god damn they are just towering over everyone else in a way that can't just be shrugged with "yeah, they are just baskeball players".

 NAVARRO wrote:
Are we sure the exo driller is forgeworld?

The article notes a Friday pre-order date, traditionally Forge World's day of choice; regular GW would be Saturday.

If you watch the pre-order preview video on sunday they said 'from Forgeworld" for Ka’bandha and sqat driller.

Dang. I convinced myself that the suit was gonna be in plastic. I love the fw necromunda models but they usually are easy to tell apart from plastic model

Yeah, that sucks.
NGL at this point it feels like GW is either strugling to know what to give FW to do and have decided to offload what is clearly meant to be core addons of games to them, or they are just using FW as an excuse to squeeze way higher price on addons.

FW has for the longest time been little other than the Horus Heresy and specialist games machine, and with HH2.0, it's reasonable to assume a lot of their products will be going away and their capacity, both creative and casting, can be reduced in the moderate to long term.

I did two tone colours on the shoulder pads instead of one single tone like it was shown. Also on the armour.

The brown armour one works surprisingly well. Very dwarfy imo.













Interesting the crest apparently does something and is some kind of technology. It doesn't look like a rocket launcher or flame thrower or anything like that, so maybe some kind of Psyker device.

Thanks for the various different color schemes. A lot of them are so much better than what GW went with.

Nitpick: That faction logo is so Transformers, why is there no Optimus Prime scheme?

Suddenly I want to do a red, blue, and silver scheme, with the logo on the shoulder like that.

Thank you so much for the colour variants!

This is what Im talking about they are truly fun to play with colour themes.... All colours look great. I have a hard time just picking one example.
Almost want to do an army with all the colours now XD XD

derpherp wrote:
I did two tone colours on the shoulder pads instead of one single tone like it was shown. Also on the armour.


Interesting the crest apparently does something and is some kind of technology. It doesn't look like a rocket launcher or flame thrower or anything like that, so maybe some kind of Psyker device.

Those are some great colour schemes, I like that my idea for a wine red looks good. The brown is actually a really interesting idea.

You raise a very good point about the crest and psyker stuff.

I wonder if the different animals grant different bonuses or if that is purely aesthetic.

Now the psyker stuff, a big part of WFB Dwarves is their inherent anti magic abilities. I wonder if they will introduce that with these Votanni, they have sorted of alluded to it a bit earlier in the teaser articles. The old living ancestors were basically runelords. We haven't heard much about them so far, I wonder if now they will be more technological in nature, working to keep the ancestor cores in order.

 Olthannon wrote:

derpherp wrote:
I did two tone colours on the shoulder pads instead of one single tone like it was shown. Also on the armour.


Interesting the crest apparently does something and is some kind of technology. It doesn't look like a rocket launcher or flame thrower or anything like that, so maybe some kind of Psyker device.

Those are some great colour schemes, I like that my idea for a wine red looks good. The brown is actually a really interesting idea.

You raise a very good point about the crest and psyker stuff.

I wonder if the different animals grant different bonuses or if that is purely aesthetic.

Now the psyker stuff, a big part of WFB Dwarves is their inherent anti magic abilities. I wonder if they will introduce that with these Votanni, they have sorted of alluded to it a bit earlier in the teaser articles. The old living ancestors were basically runelords. We haven't heard much about them so far, I wonder if now they will be more technological in nature, working to keep the ancestor cores in order.

I'm wondering if the crests are some sort of field projector or maybe they activates cloneskeins? Hopefully the animal heads symbolise something significant.

Whatever it is revealed to be, I'm sure we can wring a few pages of tedious argument out of it.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
Whatever it is revealed to be, I'm sure we can wring a few pages of tedious argument out of it.

They’re too dwarfy! They’re not dwarfy enough! Too dwarfy! Needs a belt buckle………Etc etc etc.

I'm not really sure what I expected from nuSquats but my disappointment is immeasurable regarding them just being yet another MEQ army.

That last one in the blue and yellow with the open face shield had me instantly reminded of Starcraft Terran Marines, except shorter and stockier.

I think I like what they're going for, rather than biker dwarves in leather jackets, and I like the high tech look of it, but I think I'll be waiting to see what the line troops look like (assuming these are heavy infantry).

 Cruentus wrote:
That last one in the blue and yellow with the open face shield had me instantly reminded of Starcraft Terran Marines, except shorter and stockier.

I think I like what they're going for, rather than biker dwarves in leather jackets, and I like the high tech look of it, but I think I'll be waiting to see what the line troops look like (assuming these are heavy infantry).

We know what the basic infantry look like, though? That's what the Hearthkin are

 Cruentus wrote:
That last one in the blue and yellow with the open face shield had me instantly reminded of Starcraft Terran Marines, except shorter and stockier.

I think I like what they're going for, rather than biker dwarves in leather jackets, and I like the high tech look of it, but I think I'll be waiting to see what the line troops look like (assuming these are heavy infantry).

I may or may not have done that last one as bait for the starcraft crowd. It was a lot more blue, but I thought that was a bit on the nose and made it greener lol.

I like the aesthetic they went for too, but I can see why some people may be disappointed it isn't how they wanted it to be. But then kit bashing or painting or transferring it to be how you like isn't that hard at the end of the day. I experimented with a few runes on the photoshop versions and I think I might end up doing something like that.

The panels on the shoulder pads almost seem like they were designed so that people could customise them honestly.

The thing I am second most curious about currently is how the commanders are going to look, and if they look like the concept art which is quite a lot different than the average soldier squat.

But the thing I am most curious about is just big vehicles generally if they exist.

If they manage to make them iconic great designs then I could see a lot of warhammer tank lovers getting them no matter what. There's so much design potential with the colossus and land train to make something that is truly "Holy gak I really really want that."

Hopefully they nail it

The "fantasy dwarfs are anti-magic" is no guarantee of what to expect with these guys especially with the original squats having Psykers and GW's habit of doing whatever whenever.

 KidCthulhu wrote:
The "fantasy dwarfs are anti-magic" is no guarantee of what to expect with these guys especially with the original squats having Psykers and GW's habit of doing whatever whenever.

We already know the Leagues are engineered to be better protected against the Warp, though. And that they have their own grudge-based Psykers.

Sagitaur ATV

Looks alright, I do declare.

Interestingly, squads can be split between two of these..

Absolutely love that. Best reveal for the faction so far to me.

Further pics

Overall I like its armored moon buggy look, however I do have mixed feelings about those bubble canopies, particularly the gunner one, as they would seem to be points of weakness in protection. I guess I might have preferred a flush armored surface, with the gunner inside using sensors or screens to shoot, but maybe that would have looked too plain, though it would have been more flat surface area for people to paint whatever they want. I also hope there are helmeted heads.

We also get maybe a hint of motivation why the Leagues are now making themselves known. The Rift has disrupted trade routes and swallowed up Holds. So it could be a matter of survivors of destroyed Holds trying to establish new Holds, or existing Holds having to reach out to find new resources and trade routes now that the old ones are gone.

Very much like that! I was a bit concerned they would all be anti-grav, but it's on wheels, which is great.

Feels a distinct aesthetic from other armies, a slightly diesel-punk/classic sci-fi vibe.

The only things I dislike are fairly inconsequential things with the weapons, like that ammo box from the triple-barrel autocannon feels a bit lacking and the turret angles would be a bit hampered by the other parts of the vehicle, but neither of those really matter overall.

Yeah nah.

I think I'm gonna give not-Squats a miss.

"L7 missile launcher, or MATR autocannon. "

Looks like GW moved the joke names to the weapons.