scarletsquig wrote: Don't worry about the Ogre list, it is looking great, lots of new units, none of them goblins.
Armies with nothing but ogres are still 100% doable.
Did the Horde-sized Ogre unit that was mooted become a thing? 6x2 or some other number/formation?
I think you may need a "token", from Mantic, unless you've doen the Dungeon Saga one.
I went in for the Forces of the Abyss Mega army and RuleBooks. I can't see then fething up the game enough that I wouldn't play it. I like the current version and I thought all the rumored rules changes, the ones on the quick sheet at least, were pretty solid.
scarletsquig wrote: Don't worry about the Ogre list, it is looking great, lots of new units, none of them goblins.
Armies with nothing but ogres are still 100% doable.
Did the Horde-sized Ogre unit that was mooted become a thing? 6x2 or some other number/formation?
scarletsquig wrote: Don't worry about the Ogre list, it is looking great, lots of new units, none of them goblins.
Armies with nothing but ogres are still 100% doable.
Did the Horde-sized Ogre unit that was mooted become a thing? 6x2 or some other number/formation?
Gallahad wrote: What about some sort of a "Rules committee mod?" Can they stop you from releasing a pdf with "your" modified point values, unit rules, etc.?
It is really good as an evolution of the current rules, although nowhere close to what 3.0 will be.
Also, I probably don't have the whole picture regarding the rules committee drama since I stayed out of it. Shame to lose Daedle though since he put most of the work in and had most of the best new ideas which made it in.
It was all a very last minute change that took a lot of effort on our part to get points balanced and proofread within the given deadline. The end result is far better with the committee's input than without, you just have to take a look at the Deadzone or Dreadball Xtreme rulebook to see what a poorly-proofread, rushed-to-printers rulebook looks like.
I'm fairly confident in Deadle's ability to get in the few real changes that KoW needed (LOS, WM stuff), so any other refinements are just icing on the cake.
My biggest problem at the end was the change to every single units' statlines that was put through just a couple of weeks before the rules were locked down and without any consultation or feedback from the committee. I feel that the changes are well outside the scope of the project (evolution, not revolution) and were introduced too late to realistically balance the game in time for the print deadline. While the changes are relatively minor, I feel that they upset the statline balance of the game too much, such as the balance between what are currently Large Infantry troops and regular Infantry regiments. Points can of course balance units out considerably, but there's still a lot to be said for the balance just of statlines.
I was also not happy with some of the changes being made to the army lists that we submitted (e.g. ignoring our proposed replacements Utterly Spineless and the Basilean rules, and replacing the Ogre rules with an overpowered one) - we had already considered and discarded the printed solutions, and for good reason. The Ogre one in particular really upset the good balance we'd achieved between the hard hitting heavy cavalry and the durable-in-a-protracted-fight large infantry (it was also practically a KoW version of the WHFB Ogres' special rule), though I do understand that one in particular has been reversed after similar outcries from the rest of the committee. Utterly Spineless and the alignment-specific Basilean one is still in there, despite near universal dislike in the community and our strong recommendations to replace them.
I started going down the previous route of reverting changes, before realising just how futile it all was. Even if I were successful then the game would just be changed elsewhere instead, such as when I successfully got the change to Large Infantry army selection overruled, only to see the units in question nerfed into uselessness. If some of these changes had been put through at the very start of the project then the committee would have at least been able to heavily playtest them and readjust to the new baselines/meta, but with just over two months to go before final submissions I do not believe the game can be sufficiently playtested to survive a ~5 year edition, so I quit the committee and asked that my name not be put down for rules development since I cannot personally guarantee the quality of them.
It is really good as an evolution of the current rules, although nowhere close to what 3.0 will be..
Clarity; that's an evolution of my original 2.5 rules written by WeedyElf, since his games group have been playing it a lot and I was occupied with KoW development. 2.51 has my full blessing of course and I like the changes he's made so far. It might be a project to return to at a later date once I finish my current batch of terrain commissions, if just as an editor to tidy up some of his amendments and also to have a go at properly laying it out rulebook wise
So, should I just stick with my fist edition KOW book, then? Is there a FAQ or errata that makes 1st edition better enough to warrant skipping 2.0 altogether?
If it matters, I would likely be playing against friends and family using the lists Azazelx has written for 1st edition armies.
(I might also play with some local gamers, too, but they seem chill.)
I suspect 2nd will be better than 1st, just not up to my personal standards. My frustrations with the development process also crushed my enjoyment of the game - the last minute changes were just the proverbial straw. If nothing else, the fluff should be substantially improved.
Daedleh wrote: I suspect 2nd will be better than 1st, just not up to my personal standards. My frustrations with the development process also crushed my enjoyment of the game - the last minute changes were just the proverbial straw. If nothing else, the fluff should be substantially improved.
So it's a matter of 2.0 being an incremental upgrade to 1.0 instead of the polished masterpiece you had hoped it would be?
Daedleh wrote: I suspect 2nd will be better than 1st, just not up to my personal standards. My frustrations with the development process also crushed my enjoyment of the game - the last minute changes were just the proverbial straw. If nothing else, the fluff should be substantially improved.
So it's a matter of 2.0 being an incremental upgrade to 1.0 instead of the polished masterpiece you had hoped it would be?
I though he said that it wasn't an incremental upgrade so much as Alessio making changes just for their own sake.
Daedleh wrote: I suspect 2nd will be better than 1st, just not up to my personal standards. My frustrations with the development process also crushed my enjoyment of the game - the last minute changes were just the proverbial straw. If nothing else, the fluff should be substantially improved.
So it's a matter of 2.0 being an incremental upgrade to 1.0 instead of the polished masterpiece you had hoped it would be?
I though he said that it wasn't an incremental upgrade so much as Alessio making changes just for their own sake.
Well, taking the previous vitriol into account, that conclusion: "I suspect 2nd will be better than 1st" seems like fairly high praise
To be honest, Kings of War is a nearly flawless game. If Daedle's goal was 100% perfect, and KoW is already 95% perfect, then it sounds like we'll be at least getting a 96 or 97% perfect game.
My big issue with V1 is the balance. I'm a competitive player. No, that doesn't mean I'm WAAC or that I don't appreciate casual/narrative gaming (me and Matt Gilbert were co-writing a narrative gaming/campaigns expansion before I quit), just that unless the situation is inappropriate then it is a game between me and my opponent - I aim to win and will use my best tactics and strategies, while meticulously planning the synergy of my army list. I play hard and expect my opponent to do the same.
Believe me when I say that I am aware of at least two game breaking loopholes in the 1st ed rules that aren't widely known, that would make me nigh unbeatable unless someone else used the same. I do not use them, but maybe after all the 1st ed tournaments are finished I'll write them up. One of them was still in 2nd, though a little toned down from what is in 1st. It was a cause of friction between me and Alessio when I just would. not. stop. telling. him. to. fix. it. already.
I should point out that despite this, I've been mainly using Ogres for the past 2 years despite the regiments being plain worse than a regiment of knights, while also being more expensive.
I hate that Knights are a flat out better choice than Ogres. I hate that Elohi are so broken that tournaments have severely limited their use. I hate that artillery is so ludicrously good. I hate that Obsidian Golem/Ankgor spam is nearly an auto-win button.
My number one priority for V2 was balance. I'm not deluded enough to think that perfect balance is achievable, but I wanted it close enough that there is never a "default" option where one unit is just plain better than another, no dud units which are utterly useless (hello KoM Scouts), no dominant style of army list and that no slight remaining imbalance is enough to overcome player skill.
With the upheaval of the baseline stats I don't think that can be achieved. I like most of the new additions; TLOS is an abomination that punishes players for modelling (shock horror! A competitive player thinks the hobby aspect is just as important as the game ), the new spells add flavour and the tweaks here and there add a lot of character while not straying away from what made the core rules of KoW great.
I don't think that balance issues can be nipped in the bud before release, and I believe that there will be a dominant playstyle/unit type spam that emerges that tournaments will need to start comping. From what I know, I suspect it'll be large infantry troop spam but obviously it's too early to tell.
For me, I associate the frustrations of development with the game now so don't enjoy it. Maybe I'll be fine with it in a couple of years. Maybe the committee will do an even more outstanding job than they've already done with balancing and I will sing from the high heavens about how wrong I am. My biggest reason for posting these gripes is seeing someone belittle the rules committee and insinuate that they're responsible for taking the project off-course, making unnecessary additions etc since the RC has done a phenomenal job at keeping the project on track.
If you were happy with the balance of 1st ed, then you will be happy with 2nd. If you were happy with the character of 1st ed, then you will be happier with 2nd. If you had a group of friends who were happy to repoint things if/when something turns out to be too cheap or too expensive then you will be very happy with 2nd.
judgedoug wrote: To be honest, Kings of War is a nearly flawless game. If Daedle's goal was 100% perfect, and KoW is already 95% perfect, then it sounds like we'll be at least getting a 96 or 97% perfect game.
What if I only want a 72% flawless game?
It might be important for one of my friends to 'know' that losing doesn't necessarily mean he is a bad player (and by extension a bad person). A perfect game will remove the uncertainty of loserdom.
If you were happy with the balance of 1st ed, then you will be happy with 2nd. If you were happy with the character of 1st ed, then you will be happier with 2nd. If you had a group of friends who were happy to repoint things if/when something turns out to be too cheap or too expensive then you will be very happy with 2nd.
Well, then, thank you very much for all the effort you put into KoW 2. I can't imagine how frustrating it is to aim to perfect your favorite ruleset and be shot down time and again. But I'm pretty confident now that, in no small part of your own, KoW 2 will be at least better than KoW 1, even if not achieving the lofty goals you had set out for it.
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BobtheInquisitor wrote: It might be important for one of my friends to 'know' that losing doesn't necessarily mean he is a bad player (and by extension a bad person). A perfect game will remove the uncertainty of loserdom.
So you specifically want it to be perfect so that when your friends do lose to you, you can, in fact, exclaim how much of a terrible person they indeed are and that you have proven it beyond a shadow of a doubt?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: It might be important for one of my friends to 'know' that losing doesn't necessarily mean he is a bad player (and by extension a bad person). A perfect game will remove the uncertainty of loserdom.
So you specifically want it to be perfect so that when your friends do lose to you, you can, in fact, exclaim how much of a terrible person they indeed are and that you have proven it beyond a shadow of a doubt?
No, that's my best friend who plays like that. He and another friend play those mindgames all the time. They ruined chess and monopoly for the greater group, and have been thrown out of Best Buy numerous times for heated Mario Kart-related drama. Whenever we play competitive games, I usually play to lose quickly or to boost my wife's faction at the expense of others. Two player games can work, as long as they both feel the game isn't 'serious'.
I do want to play KoW a lot, but not with them, at least not at the same time.
I have to say that I'm not especially encouraged by the fact that Alessio seems to be cowboying his way through KoW 2 (at a rate of one day per week, no less). Changing unit profiles too late to rebalance them (and points) before a print deadline just sounds fething stupid, as does the wholesale binning and ignoring of what seems like meticulously playtested fixes.
Something like that can really unbalance the game, and probably wouldn't help the officially unofficial WHFB lists (and alienating Daedle seems to be a bad idea, if he's contributed as much as everyone seems to agree on.)
Daedle - you might want to publish those exploits ASAP. Waiting for the tourneys to finish seems like it will result in them making it through to the next edition as well.
No, that's my best friend who plays like that. He and another friend play those mindgames all the time.
I do want to play KoW a lot, but not with them, at least not at the same time.
Set them up in a game against one another, both with premade, subpar army lists. See if you can turn them both off it, so they lose all interest!
And Best Buy? Mario Kart? Are they adults standing at the demo machine carrying on like teenagers?
Azazelx wrote: Daedle - you might want to publish those exploits ASAP. Waiting for the tourneys to finish seems like it will result in them making it through to the next edition as well.
The first one was fixed straight away, and was actually resolved in fixes designed to solve other minor issues so that's not a problem.
The biggest issue with the second rule has been resolved (no more turn one charges to nearly any unit on the board, regardless of range), however it is still a "shade of grey". There's a situation which is blatantly meant to be covered by the rule, and then there are several situations which are blatant exploits that no sane person would either try or not rule against as a tournament judge. However there's no hard line between what is acceptable and when someone needs a dreadsock to the face.
This is one of the differences between me and Alessio - I think that the rule adds nothing to the game so should just be removed for streamlining (though my exact wording was "silly" which did NOT go down well ) whereas Alessio feels that it's a fluffy rule that adds character and if someone tried to exploit it then just don't play them. If there's a disagreement then call a judge over or 4+ it.
I didn't think this was an acceptable answer especially considering that the rule is covered elsewhere, albeit in a less fluffy way.
My big issue with V1 is the balance. I'm a competitive player. No, that doesn't mean I'm WAAC or that I don't appreciate casual/narrative gaming (me and Matt Gilbert were co-writing a narrative gaming/campaigns expansion before I quit), just that unless the situation is inappropriate then it is a game between me and my opponent - I aim to win and will use my best tactics and strategies, while meticulously planning the synergy of my army list. I play hard and expect my opponent to do the same.
Believe me when I say that I am aware of at least two game breaking loopholes in the 1st ed rules that aren't widely known, that would make me nigh unbeatable unless someone else used the same. I do not use them, but maybe after all the 1st ed tournaments are finished I'll write them up. One of them was still in 2nd, though a little toned down from what is in 1st. It was a cause of friction between me and Alessio when I just would. not. stop. telling. him. to. fix. it. already.
I should point out that despite this, I've been mainly using Ogres for the past 2 years despite the regiments being plain worse than a regiment of knights, while also being more expensive.
I hate that Knights are a flat out better choice than Ogres. I hate that Elohi are so broken that tournaments have severely limited their use. I hate that artillery is so ludicrously good. I hate that Obsidian Golem/Ankgor spam is nearly an auto-win button.
My number one priority for V2 was balance. I'm not deluded enough to think that perfect balance is achievable, but I wanted it close enough that there is never a "default" option where one unit is just plain better than another, no dud units which are utterly useless (hello KoM Scouts), no dominant style of army list and that no slight remaining imbalance is enough to overcome player skill.
With the upheaval of the baseline stats I don't think that can be achieved. I like most of the new additions; TLOS is an abomination that punishes players for modelling (shock horror! A competitive player thinks the hobby aspect is just as important as the game ), the new spells add flavour and the tweaks here and there add a lot of character while not straying away from what made the core rules of KoW great.
I don't think that balance issues can be nipped in the bud before release, and I believe that there will be a dominant playstyle/unit type spam that emerges that tournaments will need to start comping. From what I know, I suspect it'll be large infantry troop spam but obviously it's too early to tell.
For me, I associate the frustrations of development with the game now so don't enjoy it. Maybe I'll be fine with it in a couple of years. Maybe the committee will do an even more outstanding job than they've already done with balancing and I will sing from the high heavens about how wrong I am. My biggest reason for posting these gripes is seeing someone belittle the rules committee and insinuate that they're responsible for taking the project off-course, making unnecessary additions etc since the RC has done a phenomenal job at keeping the project on track.
If you were happy with the balance of 1st ed, then you will be happy with 2nd. If you were happy with the character of 1st ed, then you will be happier with 2nd. If you had a group of friends who were happy to repoint things if/when something turns out to be too cheap or too expensive then you will be very happy with 2nd
.
Im interested then in what you thought of Allessio's piece in WI about tournament games and tournament gamers and "balance". It wasnt exactly positive. He was supposed to come to our BA tournament last November, and we had spoken to him at Derby just the month previous and he was a bit...short, shall we say...with us about our rules pack. He didn't seem overly happy that we had done our own scenarios and had clarified some bits and pieces (all of which are issues the community are aware of). He seemed to have a big problem with the whole thing. In the end he cried off and didn't come. Given the lead in timesfor magazine articles I couldnt help but feel that I took some of the hit from the blast of his WI piece. It didnt feel nice, I will tell you that.
Is this something you encountered when doing the KOW stuff?
Edit: we're about to run our 5th sold out BA tournament, so I must be doing something right.
lord_blackfang wrote: This is really funny considering Alessio was the chief agent of dumbing down GW's games for the sake of tournament balance.
Yeah, I found it odd as well as I had always taken Alessio to be a much more simple rules over complicated fluffy stuff kinda guy. Perhaps he's mellowing in his old age. Haha. Of course there is also the option of the middle ground. I mean if you want a perfectly balanced rule set there is always chess...
My big issue with V1 is the balance. I'm a competitive player. No, that doesn't mean I'm WAAC or that I don't appreciate casual/narrative gaming (me and Matt Gilbert were co-writing a narrative gaming/campaigns expansion before I quit), just that unless the situation is inappropriate then it is a game between me and my opponent - I aim to win and will use my best tactics and strategies, while meticulously planning the synergy of my army list. I play hard and expect my opponent to do the same.
Believe me when I say that I am aware of at least two game breaking loopholes in the 1st ed rules that aren't widely known, that would make me nigh unbeatable unless someone else used the same. I do not use them, but maybe after all the 1st ed tournaments are finished I'll write them up. One of them was still in 2nd, though a little toned down from what is in 1st. It was a cause of friction between me and Alessio when I just would. not. stop. telling. him. to. fix. it. already.
I should point out that despite this, I've been mainly using Ogres for the past 2 years despite the regiments being plain worse than a regiment of knights, while also being more expensive.
I hate that Knights are a flat out better choice than Ogres. I hate that Elohi are so broken that tournaments have severely limited their use. I hate that artillery is so ludicrously good. I hate that Obsidian Golem/Ankgor spam is nearly an auto-win button.
My number one priority for V2 was balance. I'm not deluded enough to think that perfect balance is achievable, but I wanted it close enough that there is never a "default" option where one unit is just plain better than another, no dud units which are utterly useless (hello KoM Scouts), no dominant style of army list and that no slight remaining imbalance is enough to overcome player skill.
With the upheaval of the baseline stats I don't think that can be achieved. I like most of the new additions; TLOS is an abomination that punishes players for modelling (shock horror! A competitive player thinks the hobby aspect is just as important as the game ), the new spells add flavour and the tweaks here and there add a lot of character while not straying away from what made the core rules of KoW great.
I don't think that balance issues can be nipped in the bud before release, and I believe that there will be a dominant playstyle/unit type spam that emerges that tournaments will need to start comping. From what I know, I suspect it'll be large infantry troop spam but obviously it's too early to tell.
For me, I associate the frustrations of development with the game now so don't enjoy it. Maybe I'll be fine with it in a couple of years. Maybe the committee will do an even more outstanding job than they've already done with balancing and I will sing from the high heavens about how wrong I am. My biggest reason for posting these gripes is seeing someone belittle the rules committee and insinuate that they're responsible for taking the project off-course, making unnecessary additions etc since the RC has done a phenomenal job at keeping the project on track.
If you were happy with the balance of 1st ed, then you will be happy with 2nd. If you were happy with the character of 1st ed, then you will be happier with 2nd. If you had a group of friends who were happy to repoint things if/when something turns out to be too cheap or too expensive then you will be very happy with 2nd
.
Im interested then in what you thought of Allessio's piece in WI about tournament games and tournament gamers and "balance". It wasnt exactly positive. He was supposed to come to our BA tournament last November, and we had spoken to him at Derby just the month previous and he was a bit...short, shall we say...with us about our rules pack. He didn't seem overly happy that we had done our own scenarios and had clarified some bits and pieces (all of which are issues the community are aware of). He seemed to have a big problem with the whole thing. In the end he cried off and didn't come. Given the lead in timesfor magazine articles I couldnt help but feel that I took some of the hit from the blast of his WI piece. It didnt feel nice, I will tell you that.
Is this something you encountered when doing the KOW stuff?
Edit: we're about to run our 5th sold out BA tournament, so I must be doing something right.
I found it... interesting.
I thought that it might have been written after attending a KoW tournament where comp had been issued and some minor rule quibbles resolved in the tournament pack (e.g. LOS taken from a war engines crew rather than anywhere on the model). Given the proximity of events I suspect it might have been both (or more) which played into the article.
I personally think that good rules balance is more important for casual players than it is for tournament players.
Competitive players will see the broken units before buying them and min/max out a list to win.
Casual players won't see the units or armies that aren't effective and buy them anyway (and paint them up nicely)... and then become disheartened when they find that their army can't win a game due to poor balance.
I'm not saying this is the case with KoW, which is one of the games with better balance from Mantic, but it certainly applies to, for example, a new player starting Deadzone and picking up a Rebs starter because the minis look great, then losing 10 games in a row (no joke, this was actually my experience with Deadzone!).
It is up to those who can see the flaws to point them out, to make the game better for everyone... although this is often misinterpreted as a vocal minority seeking to make the game better for the select few that go to tournaments.
No, that's my best friend who plays like that. He and another friend play those mindgames all the time.
I do want to play KoW a lot, but not with them, at least not at the same time.
Set them up in a game against one another, both with premade, subpar army lists. See if you can turn them both off it, so they lose all interest!
And Best Buy? Mario Kart? Are they adults standing at the demo machine carrying on like teenagers?
Setting them against each other is more of my desperate, last minute strategy. "Let them fight."
And yes, they would use the demo machines for hours and not buy anything. That's what they did when waiting for rush hour traffic to die down just about every weekday.
scarletsquig wrote: I personally think that good rules balance is more important for casual players than it is for tournament players.
Competitive players will see the broken units before buying them and min/max out a list to win.
Casual players won't see the units or armies that aren't effective and buy them anyway (and paint them up nicely)... and then become disheartened when they find that their army can't win a game due to poor balance.
I'm not saying this is the case with KoW, which is one of the games with better balance from Mantic, but it certainly applies to, for example, a new player starting Deadzone and picking up a Rebs starter because the minis look great, then losing 10 games in a row (no joke, this was actually my experience with Deadzone!).
It is up to those who can see the flaws to point them out, to make the game better for everyone... although this is often misinterpreted as a vocal minority seeking to make the game better for the select few that go to tournaments.
A majority of the broken units could have been fixed with point changes, the last year of the KoWUK Tourney scene has become really stagnated and top tier armies fall into the similar themes of knight/drakon/war engine/golem spam.
KoW was never as balanced as it claimed to be. The first Clash of Kings (The one with the £1000 first prize) was supposed to show how balanced the ruleset was at that point, but instead an army comp was almost brought in last minute. Luckily there wasn't any completely broken armies there, but the following tournaments people starting learning what was worth taking and what wasn't, the pathfinder rule comp fixed this for the most part but you'd still see people maxing out as many of the OP units as possible.
As for the next edition and what to look forward too...
Calvary is fixed.
Fliers are fixed.
Single fliers/large infantry are fixed.
Individuals are way less maneuverable (The tankier ones e.g. halfbreed champions only died if you let them and you could literally ping pong them between units with no danger to themselves).
Hordes should be much more attractive
War Engines are sorta fixed, though i disagree with them remaining on 1 die to hit when it's a potential for such a large amount of damage all decided through single die randomness. They're also still at a level where a lucky streak could change games, but at least they cost more.
If the RC did our jobs right then pretty much every option should be viable, at least from a point standpoint .
There are a few changes which will be revealed in the beta, which i have no idea why they were added, but they should be apparent to most people :p.
At this point though, I'd love for the beta to last as long as possible so this version is as balanced as can be, the best bet to iron out any issues that remain is to get solid and constructive feedback on the Mantic forums. Fingers crossed we can all start testing soon .
If the RC did our jobs right then pretty much every option should be viable, at least from a point standpoint .
There are a few changes which will be revealed in the beta, which i have no idea why they were added, but they should be apparent to most people :p.
At this point though, I'd love for the beta to last as long as possible so this version is as balanced as can be, the best bet to iron out any issues that remain is to get solid and constructive feedback on the Mantic forums. Fingers crossed we can all start testing soon .
The longer it takes to come out, the less time for "open beta" we'll have, unfortunately. Weren't they supposed to come out in February? WTF changes again sound ....not great.
Yeah it sounds like this is going to be less of a beta, more of a publicity run, since it's getting too close to the printing date and even the rules committee members don't know who is actually going to be receiving the beta feedback and what's going to be done with it
Very disappointed by the lack of Bolt Throwers/Scorpions in the Human List. Looks like I'll continue to be borrowing the entry from the Basilean list for my Romans and Gondorians.
Looks like Wights have been removed from the Undead list.
I'm glad I haven't bought that TK army (Might have to ask about that before dropping any money on the new Raging Heroes KS). Dunno what's going on there, I did hear somewhere that the future of the TK was in limbo as they're not big selling kits and the army as a whole isn't really different enough to normal Elves. I thought for a second they'd been 'End-Timesed' due to the presence of the Heralds-of-Woe-esque 'Silverbreeze' in the Elf list.
I noticed the points increase on Mounted Scouts, I think it's assumed that the changes to shooting should indirectly boost them (they seem to have picked up one/two extra attacks as well). I'm not convinced, but I sort of understand the reasoning.
Anyway, there are some positives. Command groups seem to be gone (I can stop telling people my units don't have them despite the models being there). 2 extra attacks for regiments is a subtle change that might see a little shift towards bigger units.
Lykanis! I was campaining years ago for a 'Werewolf Pack Leader', good to see it in there finally. Going to use my Rackham Shurat for him!
Riquende wrote: I'm glad I haven't bought that TK army (Might have to ask about that before dropping any money on the new Raging Heroes KS). Dunno what's going on there, I did hear somewhere that the future of the TK was in limbo as they're not big selling kits and the army as a whole isn't really different enough to normal Elves. I thought for a second they'd been 'End-Timesed' due to the presence of the Heralds-of-Woe-esque 'Silverbreeze' in the Elf list.
I wonder if their removal was a tactical move in light of the RH Kickstarter that's about to launch? It seems from Daedleh's post that there was an Alpha list.
Riquende wrote: I'm glad I haven't bought that TK army (Might have to ask about that before dropping any money on the new Raging Heroes KS). Dunno what's going on there, I did hear somewhere that the future of the TK was in limbo as they're not big selling kits and the army as a whole isn't really different enough to normal Elves. I thought for a second they'd been 'End-Timesed' due to the presence of the Heralds-of-Woe-esque 'Silverbreeze' in the Elf list.
I wonder if their removal was a tactical move in light of the RH Kickstarter that's about to launch? It seems from Daedleh's post that there was an Alpha list.
I don't recall us ever having an alpha list. As Riq said, they aren't doing the business which puts them in a bit of a chicken-egg scenario -> they need hard-plastic support to be at a Mantic price point = makes the investment needed very risky based on current data.
IMO Mantic should have put the list in as a separate appendix with a clear explanation of their status, maybe if enough noise is generated they will.
Having a list that can be played alongside the others is not about investment at this point, but allowing people who made the jump to KoW from the other, far more popular game to continue using their armies and models. More players, critical mass, etc.
I agree with your solution. That would make more sense than this.
And Lesser Obsidian Golems got a decent-sizednerf/price bump. I agree they were too much of an obvious choice against the Greater, but that's a big bump..
Why is there suddenly a random chart involved? My least favourite thing in 40k is the endless series of interlocking charts one must consult on scattered pages and roll against to do anything, and my least favourite of them is the random kind.
NTRabbit wrote: Why is there suddenly a random chart involved? My least favourite thing in 40k is the endless series of interlocking charts one must consult on scattered pages and roll against to do anything, and my least favourite of them is the random kind.
I (we) completely agree(d), please add your voice to the feedback
Dat sniff nerf, I need a tampon for my butt. Orcs really need a skirmish screen unit to avoid becoming "stand in a line and run at them". I don't know what to use instead.
Fight wagons still not a good option compared to gores.
I hope these don't end up as final since a few things in these lists are just daft.
Riquende wrote: I'm glad I haven't bought that TK army (Might have to ask about that before dropping any money on the new Raging Heroes KS). Dunno what's going on there, I did hear somewhere that the future of the TK was in limbo as they're not big selling kits and the army as a whole isn't really different enough to normal Elves. I thought for a second they'd been 'End-Timesed' due to the presence of the Heralds-of-Woe-esque 'Silverbreeze' in the Elf list.
I wonder if their removal was a tactical move in light of the RH Kickstarter that's about to launch? It seems from Daedleh's post that there was an Alpha list.
I don't recall us ever having an alpha list. As Riq said, they aren't doing the business which puts them in a bit of a chicken-egg scenario -> they need hard-plastic support to be at a Mantic price point = makes the investment needed very risky based on current data.
IMO Mantic should have put the list in as a separate appendix with a clear explanation of their status, maybe if enough noise is generated they will.
They were in the alphas all the way through, and we did go through their army list to bring it in line with other changes (moving singles to hero slots, -1 Me for ranged units etc). We didn't visit them as extensively as the others because we knew they'd be a placeholder list (I know Smurf wanted to revisit them more) but they were definitely in there all the way.
I (we) completely agree(d), please add your voice to the feedback
Done.
Rules Committee guys, now would be a really good time to clarify with Mantic exactly who is going to be getting this feedback and how much it's actually going to matter, because it seems like a certain someone isn't the slightest bit interested in anything we have to say.
Daedleh wrote: And of course, he forgot to put an entire army list in the document. Hope no-one was waiting for a Twilight Kin update.
from the Mantic Forum:
The Twilight Kin are a race full of exciting possibilities for us, but the previous list was always a placeholder until we had the time to devote to fully fleshing out the background and the accompanying model range – making it truly Mantic. This is something that we are still 100% committed to doing, but it will take time.
All of our time at the moment is being piled into the new units created from the Kickstarter, and to what we think is an excellent progression of the core rules. We didn’t want to jeopardise this relaunch of Kings of War by trying to cram in a full redesign of the Twilight Kin as a race and model range, nor did we want to put into print another placeholder list that would be out of date as soon as the new army was finished.
Instead, we have decided that we will release the Twilight Kin army list as an official free pdf alongside the launch of the game this summer. We will then continue the development of the Twilight Kin, and they will get a new army list, background and model range further down the line. Ideally we want to support this release with an accompanying supplement to further expand the Kings of War universe. As ever, the updated army list will be available for free online as soon as it’s finished.
as requested in the KS update, moaning/suggesting etc here will not achieve anything, doing so over there might (and even if it doesn't it will at least show Ronnie what the community thinks is important)
The Twilight Kin are a race full of exciting possibilities for us, but the previous list was always a placeholder until we had the time to devote to fully fleshing out the background and the accompanying model range – making it truly Mantic. This is something that we are still 100% committed to doing, but it will take time.
Like KoM, amirite? Nope, this seems perfectly timed against the RH KS.
Bumping their costs was part of the whole "change the points and base statlines of everything so that all the experience and intuition of the community around balance is useless" change.
Am I the only one disappointed that the rules for the Holy Hand Grenade don't require you to count to three (And not 2 and not 4. 5 is right out!).
Also slightly annoyed that KoM lost The Captain profile, he was a pretty unique hero that actually added more than just fightiness (giving D3+1 units Vanguard, I believe)
Really though, it's the non-tzeentch certainly-not-greater daemon being a little unpredictable. I really don't see the issue if it's just a handful of things like that, honestly.
That's fair. I don't think its a big deal either. I was just stating how I felt about them. If I quit a game every time I didn't like something I wouldn't have any games left to play.
Alessio completely deleting Wights, a unit with an actual model, is probably going to be a bigger problem then, because the KS expressly stated no units were being removed.
Also instead of adding other kinds of swarms like Goblins, Zombie swarms were deleted.
What reason would they have for removing units outright? Especially one with an existing model? I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, and assume there were reasons, but its curious.
I hate to say it, but thats a GW thing to do if there ever was one.
AlexHolker wrote: Trolls and Giants are so stupid they're the only units in the army that can't misunderstand their orders. Good job, Mantic.
Yes, I agree, good job, they don't suffer from Utterly Spineless. That hasn't changed. If they did, that would be absolutely fething terrible rules writing.
Baragash wrote: I don't believe the Wights decision was Alessio's (there are 3 "factions" in the process: Alessio, Rules Committee, Studio).
Is there any actual way to feed back the fact that we feel that the removal of units is bs? Or just post on the little feedback forum and hope they give a gak enough to take notice?
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NTRabbit wrote: Alessio completely deleting Wights, a unit with an actual model, is probably going to be a bigger problem then, because the KS expressly stated no units were being removed.
Also instead of adding other kinds of swarms like Goblins, Zombie swarms were deleted.
Do you know where that quote is located?
Also, humans lost their Priests and pentinents/fanatics.
I guess it's true that you should never see how the sausage is made!
I'm willing to give the rules a try anyhow. As long as the core remains a fast to play streamlined fantasy game I will be happier with it than the current mass battle alternatives.
It's not just "the sausage", DB. It's the changes to the army lists (I've had several units removed from my armies) that are really fething me off.
The Abyssal list also has quite a few units with their very own unit-specific special rules - in a very Warhammer move that goes against the USR grain of KoW.
Random point inflation makes no sense at all, and fething about with so many unit profiles is also needless.
Right, sorry if I seemed flippant. I haven't really had time to look at things in depth and do comparisons. I am pretty worried that KoW might end up Warhammerified, which would really suck. Individual special rules would be quite off putting to me. I want a game that is easy to teach and fast to play.
Deleting units is also very strange I think. Perhaps they're doing it in a misguided attempt to differentiate themselves from GW for some future strategy, but I really wish they wouldn't because even if they never make a model for a unit, leaving it in there doesn't really harm anyone.
I am a bit surprised at how the rules development is being done to be honest. I would expect something with more oversight from any games company of Mantic's size. It sounds like AC is being given a pretty free reign with things, without much editorial oversight from Mantic. The poor publicity from dissatisfaction from members of the rules committee is also pretty bad for the game's general PR. So I share your worries but I'm trying to be upbeat because like you I really want KoW to be a success!
I dislike how every army seems to be getting regeneration. Naiads in forces of nature, all of the creatures from Abyssals, I think. Saw some others as well. Just seems like taking the cool rule of undead and spreading it about instead of coming up with a different idea. Also the forces of nature army just seems too diverse and not very cohesive, which I mentioned in the kickstarter.
Well, Alessio is ex-GW, they are experts at making changes just for the sake of making changes. I don't have a KoW army, so I'm theoretically unaffected, but stat and cost changes across the board mean that the game isn't getting any closer to being balanced, they just cleared the board and started again from zero with no reference points.
Well, trolls had it from jump. And it really does make sense for daemons and spirit forms to have regen. They basically gave it to the spirits (Elohi, demons, naiads, etc). And trolls. Trolls need it.
Da Boss wrote: Right, sorry if I seemed flippant. I haven't really had time to look at things in depth and do comparisons. I am pretty worried that KoW might end up Warhammerified, which would really suck. Individual special rules would be quite off putting to me. I want a game that is easy to teach and fast to play.
Deleting units is also very strange I think. Perhaps they're doing it in a misguided attempt to differentiate themselves from GW for some future strategy, but I really wish they wouldn't because even if they never make a model for a unit, leaving it in there doesn't really harm anyone.
I am a bit surprised at how the rules development is being done to be honest. I would expect something with more oversight from any games company of Mantic's size. It sounds like AC is being given a pretty free reign with things, without much editorial oversight from Mantic. The poor publicity from dissatisfaction from members of the rules committee is also pretty bad for the game's general PR. So I share your worries but I'm trying to be upbeat because like you I really want KoW to be a success!
I do too, but a good game is more important for me than it being a success. At this point, I'd much rather play the RC's version with friends in my own home than what the 2e seems to be becoming. If that means I never attend a tourney or organised event or even have a PUG with a random guy, then so be it.
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lord_blackfang wrote: Well, Alessio is ex-GW, they are experts at making changes just for the sake of making changes. I don't have a KoW army, so I'm theoretically unaffected, but stat and cost changes across the board mean that the game isn't getting any closer to being balanced, they just cleared the board and started again from zero with no reference points.
So is Ronnie and I believe a chunk of their staff. (Not to mention the key players at Warlord, etc etc.) Ex-GW doesn't mean bad in and of itself, but hopefully a more inclusive and less dismissive attitude to playtesters and the community can become a thing, rather then the dismissive attitude that Alessio seems to have taken here.
lord_blackfang wrote: Well, Alessio is ex-GW, they are experts at making changes just for the sake of making changes. I don't have a KoW army, so I'm theoretically unaffected, but stat and cost changes across the board mean that the game isn't getting any closer to being balanced, they just cleared the board and started again from zero with no reference points.
Here is a long post that explains the re-pointing of everything:
Basically, we were given a unit, with a fixed statline, and a cost of 100 points, with a statement that this could not be changed and was the new immutable baseline and that all other units in the game should be re-pointed based on that.
And that this needed to be done within a deadline of one week.
Please do playtest the beta as much as possible in the next 3 weeks, while a lot of work and effort was put into the re-pointing by the RC, one week was nowhere near enough time (and not enough to get playtest games in). That's where the community comes in.
All feedback will be taken seriously and posted directly to Mantic.
Rather amusingly most of the public feedback we've had so far is suggesting ideas that the RC wanted and suggested anyway, so I think we're on the ball with it.
It does seem like there are an awful lot of changes from what we were initially told were going to be minor changes to the rule set. Had no idea that a lot of unit costs and stat lines would change.
That said thank you to all of those on the RC for what must have been (and still is one assumes) a time consuming and difficult process all in the name of the love of the game. Here is hoping that the work makes KOW a better game.
So, and please forgive me if this is a stupid question, why does Alessio have the final say? If the changes he is making are fairly slapdash and potentially damaging to the game, but the RC proposals are the ones that reflect what the community wants and are carefully thought out and playtested and drive the game towards a tighter and slicker ruleset, then why can't he be bypassed?
Aye, a big thanks to the RC for their contributions!
I think for the moment I may just stick with KoW1, at least until the full/not-Beta version of 2.0 is out, as I'm only just getting familliar with the costs for that, so changing them immediately might be a tad confusing.
Some of the changes I do really like, such as the new shooting mods and spells, but I have to say the removal of units and complete recostings strikes me as really rather un-Mantic. Oh well, I'm sure it'll be a great game in the end, KoW1 is a pretty great foundation to have built on.
Really makes you wonder why they even hired Alessio... seems like he just made everything worse. Id have much preferred it if the RC had gotten his pay. <.<
So having faced endless swarms MANY times I can say I'm glad to see those go, but sad for my opponent who loved fielding multiples of them. I'm still trying to figure out the point changes as there's so many that have me scratching my head, but my Orcs seem to be slightly better off with some getting better NE scores, albeit only by one or two points. The really strange changes I see are the switch from crushing strength to the thunderous charge rules on some units. I get the concept for the change, but it was sooooo much easier to remember that these guys were CS 3 and these were CS 2, now I have mixed crushing strength AND thunderous charge.
Taaloc wrote: So, and please forgive me if this is a stupid question, why does Alessio have the final say? If the changes he is making are fairly slapdash and potentially damaging to the game, but the RC proposals are the ones that reflect what the community wants and are carefully thought out and playtested and drive the game towards a tighter and slicker ruleset, then why can't he be bypassed?
Because he's the boss? In the sports context think of him as the GM. Unless the owners fire him he's the one making the trades and signings, not the players or the coach.
Ah OK, I guess I had this idea from somewhere that he was like a freelancer working on behalf of Mantic but that the final say would lie with them. Happy to be corrected!
Taaloc wrote: Ah OK, I guess I had this idea from somewhere that he was like a freelancer working on behalf of Mantic but that the final say would lie with them. Happy to be corrected!
I'm not sure if there is sarcasm there but I don't see how being a freelancer contradicts my analogy. Owners have the final say over GMs, but if you aren't going to let them do thier job why hire them in the first place. Yes Mantic could over rule Alessio, but if they were going to that fairly often, why hire him to act as lead author in the first place.
I haven't had time to sit down and compare versions, but it looks like they addressed the major issues with the previous edition, and the previous edition was pretty solid to begin with.
They didn't update, or include the Twlight Kin, which sucks for people who only play Twilight Kin, but it at least sounds like they are trying to take them away from being Not Dark Elves.
With all the people who will inevitabley rage quit Warhammer Fantasy later this year, when the new edition drops, these could be great times indead of KoW.
Well, Alessio is normally quite an understanding guy and Ronnie is at times quiet easily distracted by the next shiny thing. So I assume the problem lies somwhere in between.
Taaloc wrote: So, and please forgive me if this is a stupid question, why does Alessio have the final say? If the changes he is making are fairly slapdash and potentially damaging to the game, but the RC proposals are the ones that reflect what the community wants and are carefully thought out and playtested and drive the game towards a tighter and slicker ruleset, then why can't he be bypassed?
Thraxas Of Turai wrote:It does seem like there are an awful lot of changes from what we were initially told were going to be minor changes to the rule set. Had no idea that a lot of unit costs and stat lines would change.
That said thank you to all of those on the RC for what must have been (and still is one assumes) a time consuming and difficult process all in the name of the love of the game. Here is hoping that the work makes KOW a better game.
I'd actually say rebalancing some units was the #1 change that had to occur. If there's only going to be a really short playtest, I hope they separate the lists from the core rules and consider letting the rules committee make annual updates to the armylists to tweak things.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote:It does seem like there are an awful lot of changes from what we were initially told were going to be minor changes to the rule set. Had no idea that a lot of unit costs and stat lines would change.
That said thank you to all of those on the RC for what must have been (and still is one assumes) a time consuming and difficult process all in the name of the love of the game. Here is hoping that the work makes KOW a better game.
I'd actually say rebalancing some units was the #1 change that had to occur. If there's only going to be a really short playtest, I hope they separate the lists from the core rules and consider letting the rules committee make annual updates to the armylists to tweak things.
This would be an ideal solution to the issues at hand, but is an absolute non-starter.
Can I just, very respectfully make a comment here, as someone who has been in this business for a while?
Our industry is very, VERY small. Small enough that it is easy to make a name for yourself, for good or ill, at any level of contribution. As such, it is REALLY bad form, and not necessarily the smartest choice tactically to air grievances in a way which can come across as petty.
I am not saying your issues are or are not valid, but at the end of the day (and I am not saying this is justice), a veteran game maker gets to veto the thoughts of volunteers. Again, not saying it is "right", but it "is". It happens in every other industry as well, incidentally, but in this one, sometimes being classy, a team player, and keeping things internal is FAR more beneficial than just trying to loudly point out that you are a better designer than someone who build his name on decades more published works. :-p
You know, I do some work for Mantic too, and I even have a small bit of involvement in this project... but other than a playful tease here or there, I don't mention every disagreement, and I certainly don't always get my way, even when I genuinely believe I am in the right. :-p Its just about professional courtesy at some point, y;know?
Right. Nothing has ever changed for the better when the peons got noisy. Shut up and take your lumps, and everything will turn out for the best. This is true in every industry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On another note, those salamanders look amazing. Maybe I need to go for a closer look than the iPad can give, but they look well textured an brutal, like lizarddwarfs on a warpath.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Right. Nothing has ever changed for the better when the peons got noisy. Shut up and take your lumps, and everything will turn out for the best. This is true in every industry.
Which was NOT what I meant. It is entirely valid to do one's job to the utmost, and even respectfully say internally that the direction something is going is the wrong one. Its good for your conscious to do so, and might even inspire changes if heard by the right person.
What doesn't help is then going to an unrelated, outside group and airing said problems knowing fully that all involved parties aren't there to say their piece as well.
Keeping it classy, and being a team player doesn't mean being a sheep or a dolt... but its about choosing your venue and realizing your actions can have consequences for a lot of people outside yourself... people who may be, for example, fiscally be effected. Volunteering your time comes with the assumption that you are passionate and informed, and your time should be appreciated, and thoughts considered... of course! But just because you're only a small, or unpaid part of a team, doesn't mean you aren't a part of that team, and probably shouldn't throw fellows under a bus. :-p
In my experience, keeping dissent internal only achieves one thing, getting the whistleblower blacklisted. Professional courtesy almost always favors those with the power over those who have a legitimate grievance.
Besides, didn't everyone state repeatedly that they tried keeping it internal and talking the right Mantic people and got nothing for it, except maybe some petty last minute rules changes out of spite?
Thanks for the clarification. It does seem a bit odd from reading this thread to apparently go through the effort of setting up a rules committee and then keeping them in the dark and ignoring them. It sounds a bit like a cold war era Soviet bloc election.
Dakka just seems to have swallowed my post... dammit.
The gist was: RC are volunteers, thus they arent bound by professional courtesy or any other industry conventions, and veterans like AC can **** up just as badly as complete newbs, see Peter Molyneaux as a prominent example.
Plus, I really cant blame the RC for wanting to share what theyve experienced, since without info, everyone would put the blame for anything that may have gone wrong so far on their shoulders.
At this point I really don't care. I had considered moving into games design but having seen how the industry works, especially one of the industries most respected designers, I have no desire to work in it. I'm sure it'll equally want nothing to do with me, but that's absolutely no skin off my back.
More clarification stuff;
The majority of stuff that the RC said/asked for was implemented, even if it was done in a different way that had some adverse effects. Initially everything came together quickly, which is why people saw initial statements from the RC indicating that the beta might have been out in November. The finer points are where things started to unravel.
Been reading the feedback on the Beta on the Mantic Blog, and I am dissapointed in some of the ridiculous complaints and people ignoring answers to their own questions.
There is a thread complaining that Forces of the Abyss are not kid friendly enough He's actually objecting to Succubus having a sex oriented theme, Fleshlings sounding dirty, and is upset because SUPRISE the army of Demons, Devils, and Nightmares is not thematically appropriate for his puritan views.
Anything that was removed for ANY reason, has 10 people not only calling the change stupid but questioning the entire 2nd edition, because that single change will force them to change their army some how.
Was the thing removed from your list still in another list that you can ally back in, while still using the same models ? Nope that's not good enough.
People arguing changes making KoW too much like Warhammer in equal numbers to people arguing for changes that did or would make KoW more like Warhammer.
IRT the 'this got removed - well, ally it back in', I've had word that some TOs only allow 'pure' army lists at events. If you're a tourney player and TOs are doing that, then it does make a difference.
privateer4hire wrote: IRT the 'this got removed - well, ally it back in', I've had word that some TOs only allow 'pure' army lists at events. If you're a tourney player and TOs are doing that, then it does make a difference.
That's a fair concern.
It's been stated that Mantic is pushing for Allies to be included in all tournament play.
Was the thing removed from your list still in another list that you can ally back in, while still using the same models ? Nope that's not good enough.
How about the things that were removed from your list now requiring a unit of troops from another list? How about wanting to include two of the removed things not being possible since they come from "Good" and "Evil" lists, so you'd need two units of troops from different races, except you can't ally with both good and evil?
That's fething ridiculous. On more than one level.
Please do playtest the beta as much as possible in the next 3 weeks, while a lot of work and effort was put into the re-pointing by the RC, one week was nowhere near enough time (and not enough to get playtest games in). That's where the community comes in.
All feedback will be taken seriously and posted directly to Mantic.
3 weeks? Again, a fething ridiculous timeframe.
Rather amusingly most of the public feedback we've had so far is suggesting ideas that the RC wanted and suggested anyway, so I think we're on the ball with it.
It's ok. I suspect they'll ignore our feedback as they did with yours.
And despite my tone here, I would again like to thank the RC for their hard work on this. Your version of the rules sound a lot better than AC's at this stage.
privateer4hire wrote: IRT the 'this got removed - well, ally it back in', I've had word that some TOs only allow 'pure' army lists at events. If you're a tourney player and TOs are doing that, then it does make a difference.
That's a fair concern.
It's been stated that Mantic is pushing for Allies to be included in all tournament play.
They can "push" for whatever they like, but we all know it won't happen in a lot of tourneys.
Tournaments possibly adding artificial restirctions to a game isn't a concern of a design team. There is no way to control what special rules TO's will come up with.
There is ALWAYS stuff that you could do then and now you can't in an edition change.
You either play the new edition, or give up an entire game, because they made changes you don't like, and move on to another game, until they ineviatabley make changes you don't like. I've been gaming for nearly 30 years and this cycle just repeats itself.
How about the things that were removed from your list now requiring a unit of troops from another list? How about wanting to include two of the removed things not being possible since they come from "Good" and "Evil" lists, so you'd need two units of troops from different races, except you can't ally with both good and evil?
Please give me an example of this that isn't KoM war machines. It's already been mentioned ad nauseum that the KoM war machines were intended to be consolidated into the 2 current stat lines.
adamsouza wrote: Tournaments possibly adding artificial restirctions to a game isn't a concern of a design team. There is no way to control what special rules TO's will come up with.
There is ALWAYS stuff that you could do then and now you can't in an edition change.
Of course, not, but then the argument that "don't worry, your Ogres will still be cool everywhere" etc don't fly, do they? There's really no good excuse for removing models from lists.
You either play the new edition, or give up an entire game, because they made changes you don't like, and move on to another game, until they ineviatabley make changes you don't like. I've been gaming for nearly 30 years and this cycle just repeats itself.
I've been gaming for longer than you. Who gives a gak? Attempted and failed dick measuring contest aside, how does a bad habit that's happened before make it fine for it to be happening again, especially when the manufacturer in this case specified that they wouldn't pull the same old gak?
How about the things that were removed from your list now requiring a unit of troops from another list? How about wanting to include two of the removed things not being possible since they come from "Good" and "Evil" lists, so you'd need two units of troops from different races, except you can't ally with both good and evil?
Please give me an example of this that isn't KoM war machines. It's already been mentioned ad nauseum that the KoM war machines were intended to be consolidated into the 2 current stat lines.
Mortars in Abyssal Dwarves and Organ Guns in Dwarves. Both removed from KoM for no real reason - especially in light of the fact that both War Machines' stats still exist in the game. Because Ronnie doesn't want KoM to be too much like The Empire is what I've seen mooted, which is a far cry from what was said and accepted two years ago, a year ago, and last month when they were the spunky underdog and KoM were a line they said they were not planning to make figures for, and wanted the list to be flexible enough to run Romans, Vikings, Empire or Btrettonians.
It's fine if you're happy with every one of the changes and the way it's all been handled, but don't expect me not to complain about the stuff I don't like. Which includes the horrible way that the whole thing is being handled and (un)balanced.
Mortars are still in, they are just called catapult. KoM habe 2 generic war machines which can be anything.
I like the idea and in my opinion it is better than having 6 different war machines which are more or less the same.
They only thing they should change would be to change the names into "generic indirekt fire warmachine" and add a smaller version to both (less damage, lower points)
adamsouza wrote: Been reading the feedback on the Beta on the Mantic Blog, and I am dissapointed in some of the ridiculous complaints and people ignoring answers to their own questions.
In my experience, the further you move out of the GW bubble and its immediate satellites (PP, Corvus Belli...) the more ridiculous hobbyists you get. Try the TMP forums. Some people there literally still act exactly like nerds were portrayed in 80s media - the sad, dumb, mouth-breathing, awkward, obsessive-compulsive, middle-aged toy train collectors who get upset if anything in their little world gets moved one inch out of place.
It's fine if you're happy with every one of the changes and the way it's all been handled, but don't expect me not to complain about the stuff I don't like. Which includes the horrible way that the whole thing is being handled and (un)balanced.
Which is what I've come to expect from you. I can't recall a post from you where you weren't complaining, and when any of it was constructive.
It's fine if you're happy with every one of the changes and the way it's all been handled, but don't expect me not to complain about the stuff I don't like. Which includes the horrible way that the whole thing is being handled and (un)balanced.
Which is what I've come to expect from you. I can't recall a post from you where you weren't complaining, and when any of it was constructive.
He makes a lot of great points, but doesn't candy coat them like some people do. I appreciate his comments, sometimes they are overboard, but most of those times I can see where he's frustrated and just venting. Let's remember to be nice
It's fine if you're happy with every one of the changes and the way it's all been handled, but don't expect me not to complain about the stuff I don't like. Which includes the horrible way that the whole thing is being handled and (un)balanced.
Which is what I've come to expect from you. I can't recall a post from you where you weren't complaining, and when any of it was constructive.
You should probably read more in that case. Plenty that I say is constructive. Of course, if you already don't like me for whatever reason then your opinions of anything I type is going to be coloured negative, or ignored though that's no skin off my nose. Please feel free to continue with the ad hominems, though. Entertain yourself by all means.
Of course, if you think everything in this case is sweetness and light, if you think that asking the volunteer RC to repoint all units in the game within 1 week. If you think a 3-week playtest timetable is all reasonable, peachy-keen, and likely to be for the benefit rather then the detriment of the future of the game, then you're welcome to hold those beliefs.
If you think that my opinion that all of those things ridiculous and unreasonable makes me a bad person, then I'll just have to live with your disapproval.
adamsouza wrote: Been reading the feedback on the Beta on the Mantic Blog, and I am dissapointed in some of the ridiculous complaints and people ignoring answers to their own questions.
In my experience, the further you move out of the GW bubble and its immediate satellites (PP, Corvus Belli...) the more ridiculous hobbyists you get. Try the TMP forums. Some people there literally still act exactly like nerds were portrayed in 80s media - the sad, dumb, mouth-breathing, awkward, obsessive-compulsive, middle-aged toy train collectors who get upset if anything in their little world gets moved one inch out of place.
There are plenty in the "GW bubble" as well. It's part of the hobby. Just that the GW bubble is bigger, and so perhaps the "ridiculous" hobbyists stand out less. of course, this is the internet, so you'll always find people with ridiculous views, and always find people willing to lump any member of any online community together as a pack of idiots, seperate of course from the poster themselves. How often do we see "Dakka complains about this, then Dakka complains about that!" as though the population of this website is a hivemind...
Azazelx wrote: If you think that my opinion that all of those things ridiculous and unreasonable makes me a bad person, then I'll just have to live with your disapproval. .
I think you keep adding color commentary about my thoughts and motivations that are complete figments of your imagination, and I'm adding you back to my ignore list.
Azazelx wrote: How often do we see "Dakka complains about this, then Dakka complains about that!" as though the population of this website is a hivemind...
Well, from reading this (certainly within the context of people that read this thread) I will say that Deadleh's comments will have done more to damage KoW2's prospects than any production difficulties, resin problems or anything else that Mantic has slipped up with in the past.
Certainly interesting to read the comments, but must say I'm looking forward to some objective commentary and review of the new book.
They can "push" for whatever they like, but we all know it won't happen in a lot of tourneys.
TOs can and will do what they like. Its only wargaming. In any case TOs and people who play in tournaments shouldn't mess with the rules or even attend tournaments, according to some games designers.
Azazelx wrote: If you think that my opinion that all of those things ridiculous and unreasonable makes me a bad person, then I'll just have to live with your disapproval. .
I think you keep adding color commentary about my thoughts and motivations that are complete figments of your imagination, and I'm adding you back to my ignore list.
Works for me. I didn't even know I was there or removed. FWIW, most of your posts don't stand out in any way to me, I've always found it easy to gloss over your stuff without particularly caring one way or another.
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Pacific wrote: Well, from reading this (certainly within the context of people that read this thread) I will say that Deadleh's comments will have done more to damage KoW2's prospects than any production difficulties, resin problems or anything else that Mantic has slipped up with in the past.
He's far from the only one, though. If you read the comments by various members of the RC on the Mantic Beta forum, Daedleh's comments are reflected there by more than one of them, though perhaps less bluntly.
They can "push" for whatever they like, but we all know it won't happen in a lot of tourneys.
TOs can and will do what they like. Its only wargaming. In any case TOs and people who play in tournaments shouldn't mess with the rules or even attend tournaments, according to some games designers.
Well, Alessio was always apparently a tournament-oriented player, so with that kind of background you would imagine that absolute clarity of rules wording would be seen as not only valuable, but incredibly important. Which is why it's all very odd.
Pacific wrote: Well, from reading this (certainly within the context of people that read this thread) I will say that Deadleh's comments will have done more to damage KoW2's prospects than any production difficulties, resin problems or anything else that Mantic has slipped up with in the past.
If it gets enough community members to read the rules, test them, and voice their complaints, then it has done a great service to the game. If the voice is ignored or not sounded, then the unfixed weaknesses in the rules will do more to damage the brand than anything else save a whole lot of terrible minis.
I thoroughly detest any and all attitudes that encourage silence or biting ones tongue.
Pacific wrote: Well, from reading this (certainly within the context of people that read this thread) I will say that Deadleh's comments will have done more to damage KoW2's prospects than any production difficulties, resin problems or anything else that Mantic has slipped up with in the past.
I agree, totally.
It's amusing, really, the essence of what he has said is that KoW2 is straight up going to be better than KoW1.
However, the tone was so bad, that is what people have run with.
NTRabbit wrote: You say that as though there aren't a number of glaring problems? It's not just a tone people are "running with"
I would invite you to tell me of the ruleset that doesn't have something in it that can be exploited to a silly degree or doesn't ever marginalize a model/unit ever. This would indeed be a most interesting ruleset to use, especially if if's in the mass-battle fantasy genre as I have a large WHFB collection and have yet to play a single game of it. I'm dubious that such a thing exists, obviously, but if you know of one that please share the wealth, good sir. Assuming I am correct that such a thing does not exist, I will go back to the truism that "perfect is the enemy of good".
While the idea of AC ignoring the RC out of alphabetical prejudice (they're not even a vowel OR in the first half of the alphabet...dirty peons not understanding how the *C hierarchy works...) doesn't exactly make me want to rush out and buy the rules, judgedoug is correct that the overall assessment on the state of the rules from Daedelah (sorry if I butchered that) was positive. He just disliked the methods used, the personality clash and some of the "change for change's sake" maneuvers.
NTRabbit wrote: You say that as though there aren't a number of glaring problems? It's not just a tone people are "running with"
Which part of the rules? I've now read over the 2nd edition beta rules twice, and it's pretty much overall better than KoW1. I feel as though the hundred-plus games of KoW1 I've played in the last 2.5 years would give me the experience to know which part of the rules needed tweaking - and those parts have been addressed. AC and the RC, and Deadle's great efforts, look to have made an already fantastic game even better by polishing the few rough edges.
So, again, which part of the rules has been made worse?
NTRabbit wrote: You say that as though there aren't a number of glaring problems? It's not just a tone people are "running with"
Which part of the rules? I've now read over the 2nd edition beta rules twice, and it's pretty much overall better than KoW1. I feel as though the hundred-plus games of KoW1 I've played in the last 2.5 years would give me the experience to know which part of the rules needed tweaking - and those parts have been addressed. AC and the RC, and Deadle's great efforts, look to have made an already fantastic game even better by polishing the few rough edges.
lord_blackfang wrote: I'm pretty sure most people have a beef with building the units from the ground up, not with fixes to the core rules.
^This. 90% of the beta-rage is being driven by changes (or lack of) to the army lists, not with the core rules where the consensus seems to be "a few little bits to tidy up".
NTRabbit wrote: You say that as though there aren't a number of glaring problems? It's not just a tone people are "running with"
Which part of the rules? I've now read over the 2nd edition beta rules twice, and it's pretty much overall better than KoW1. I feel as though the hundred-plus games of KoW1 I've played in the last 2.5 years would give me the experience to know which part of the rules needed tweaking - and those parts have been addressed. AC and the RC, and Deadle's great efforts, look to have made an already fantastic game even better by polishing the few rough edges.
Why weren't you on the Rules Committee?!?
Shrug, I didn't play any tournaments or anything, just a LOT of KoW. I have four fully painted armies and another four waiting in the wings, haha. I'm also a Warlord Games "Sarge" demo guy for Bolt Action since late 2013, so maybe that would have been a conflict?
lord_blackfang wrote: I'm pretty sure most people have a beef with building the units from the ground up, not with fixes to the core rules.
^This. 90% of the beta-rage is being driven by changes (or lack of) to the army lists, not with the core rules where the consensus seems to be "a few little bits to tidy up".
Gotcha. Well, I'll be hopefully getting in a few games this week. I'm going to try one each with my Dwarves, Basileans, Orcs, and Goblins. And I just remembered I have my Greek Kingdoms of Men army, so, Alpharius, actually, 5 painted armies, doh!
I reviewed the Beta list, and aside from typical angst about my units changing slightly, I think the changes are for the best. In my opinion, Warmachines needed a pretty big nerf, and got a least a decent nerf. Hevay Cav needed toned down, and got it. More rules scale, and a lot of wonkiness in the troop/regiment/horde heirarchy were resolved.
Having good units and bad units isn't the end of the world for a game. Nearly every game, including rigorously tested games like Warmachine, have bad units (although PP enthusiasts would still claim that they are just niche, not bad).
The biggest problem wasn't that unit x was better than unit y, but that entire archtypes were better than others. Warmachines were simply the best, heavy cav was next best, and shooting units were pretty mediocre. I'm going to assume that the points are reasonably balanced. If they aren't, than KoW does what every other game does: adapt. I'm curious what Mantic will do to keep the game fresh over the next few years without a new army list.
I've found this rules talk all very interesting indeed, especially as it comes on the heels of an interview Beasts of War did with Dave, the creator / rules writer of Dropzone Commander last week.
I find the varying approaches to rules design to be very interesting indeed.
lord_blackfang wrote: I'm pretty sure most people have a beef with building the units from the ground up, not with fixes to the core rules.
This.
Asking the RC to repoint everything within a week (how and why is it their job, exactly?) and a 3-week playtest period both seem extremely problematic. Alessio working one day a week on it seems like a poor choice as well, whether/regardless of it's on the part of Alessio or Ronnie. Given that it's a Flagship game for Mantic and has a "hard" deadline set by KS - as it seems to be quite behind schedule leading to those very important elements being rushed.
The wholesale removal of units and named characters (Wights, Priests, Pentinents, The Captain, Beresos) "removal" of unique units who's stats remain in the game for other armies via consolidation into "Crossbows and Catapults" (KoM Organ Guns, Mortars), and the addition/rewrite of another army list into one featuring quite a few WH-style individual unit rules rather than KoW-style USRs. No-show for the Dark Elves List (I think this is simply an anti-Raging Heroes KS tactical move) These things don't endear, especially as they appear to have been a surprise to all including the RC - and with the aforementioned 3-week timetable... well, some say three weeks, others say "we don't know" - neither is especially good when months should really be had in order to balance all those points changes...
Does anyone else have a problem with the KOW Pledge Manager? I have upgraded to "living legend", but when I try to check out I only get "Pledge discount does not exist!". I contacted support through the pledge manager 12 days ago and still no response. If they want people to complete their pledges before march 30 they really should try to make sure that you can!
jorny wrote: Does anyone else have a problem with the KOW Pledge Manager? I have upgraded to "living legend", but when I try to check out I only get "Pledge discount does not exist!". I contacted support through the pledge manager 12 days ago and still no response. If they want people to complete their pledges before march 30 they really should try to make sure that you can!
i've been getting the same thing 'pledge discount does not exist', i'm now on email round 3 in trying to solve the problem, hopefully the next fix will be more successful then "try a different browser"
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I know Chris who is the go-to pledge-manager trouble-shooter was on vacation until today, which could explain the long delay on PM answers.
This sort of planning often makes me doubt how serious Mantic take planning and organisation.
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Azazelx wrote: No-show for the Dark Elves List (I think this is simply an anti-Raging Heroes KS tactical move).
To be fair the Twilight Kin army list will probably be available when Raging Heroes deliver their Dark Elves in 2019.
I just spoke with Ronnie who actually says Chris is hustling to hand-fix pledges which weren't reporting correctly, etc... So hopefully before the day is out there should be some progress.
For what it is worth, my own PM is borked too, so it isn't just you guys. :-p
Thanks for the info for those affected NTN. That said how hard would it be to send out a KS update telling their backers that very information? A five minute job at most.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I know Chris who is the go-to pledge-manager trouble-shooter was on vacation until today, which could explain the long delay on PM answers.
This sort of planning often makes me doubt how serious Mantic take planning and organisation.
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Azazelx wrote: No-show for the Dark Elves List (I think this is simply an anti-Raging Heroes KS tactical move).
To be fair the Twilight Kin army list will probably be available when Raging Heroes deliver their Dark Elves in 2019.
Of course it will. It just seems ...convenient that the list is missing just as the RH KS opens up. Stops people buying their full DE armies via this KS since we don't know what they will do to the units. Unless you do it visa PM later, but with Mantic running their own KS right now, it takes a bit of wind out of RH's sails right now.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I know Chris who is the go-to pledge-manager trouble-shooter was on vacation until today, which could explain the long delay on PM answers.
This sort of planning often makes me doubt how serious Mantic take planning and organisation.
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Azazelx wrote: No-show for the Dark Elves List (I think this is simply an anti-Raging Heroes KS tactical move).
To be fair the Twilight Kin army list will probably be available when Raging Heroes deliver their Dark Elves in 2019.
Of course it will. It just seems ...convenient that the list is missing just as the RH KS opens up. Stops people buying their full DE armies via this KS since we don't know what they will do to the units. Unless you do it visa PM later, but with Mantic running their own KS right now, it takes a bit of wind out of RH's sails right now.
For some reason I feel the uncertainty around 9th Ed Warhammer would have more of an effect on RH than Mantic's missing army list.
I've recently been picking minis up to play KoW but am a bit disappointed in what I've heard about some of the suggestions by the RC that have been ignored as well as the last minute stat changes.
It's kind of put me at edge but I have the current rules so will start with those. I really want to play Dark Elves among others so its all good until Summer.
I used to play WFB (back in 3rd Ed) but the sillyness of some of the new lets break away from Fantasy minis by GW has pointed me back into fantasy via KoW.
Doing 2k new rules/army lists tonight, my dwarves versus undead. Quite excited, the new rules on the third reading are almost memorized and I'm really happy with the few changes that have been made.
GiraffeX wrote: I've recently been picking minis up to play KoW but am a bit disappointed in what I've heard about some of the suggestions by the RC that have been ignored as well as the last minute stat changes.
It's kind of put me at edge but I have the current rules so will start with those. I really want to play Dark Elves among others so its all good until Summer.
I used to play WFB (back in 3rd Ed) but the sillyness of some of the new lets break away from Fantasy minis by GW has pointed me back into fantasy via KoW.
The current rules and army lists are still good, despite being imperfect. Beyond that, using the new core rules with the previous army lists shouldn't be unbalancing.
Played a 2000 point game between my Dwarves and my buddy's Undead last night using the new rules and army lists.
No hyperbole; very, very fun - definitely one of the most fun and satisfying Kings of War games I've played.
Observations:
- The one pivot during charge affected nothing in the game.
- Thunderous Charge is much better than KoW1's continuous Crushing Strength; Phalanx as a rule is also better because of that.
- The new spells are really, really cool, giving you a few more tactical options. Had a Counter-Charge from Revenant Knights with the +1CS buff against my Berserkers that was a really great example of the new rules in effect.
- I had two cannons with a Warsmith. The new Elite rule made that setup far more reasonable. I missed on a lot of 2's, but I also rolled two 1's, so the Elite still made it worth it for that re-roll. Hitting with it was great as it didn't feel overpowered, with the new Blast change. Additionally, the Balefire Catapult he fielded hit twice but did not seem overpowered, even with it's Vicious rule.
- The new Line of Sight rules are perfect. We had an instance where in the old rules it would have been a mini-argument, but was resolved within seconds because of the new LOS/Height clarification.
- shooting is worth it now! I took three troops of Ironwatch Rifles and felt they were actually worth their points. One even got a point blank fusillade against a Skeleton regiment, scoring like 6 damage, which was excellent.
- I also realized that Nimble ignores the modifier for moving and shooting. Light/archer cavalry are now suddenly worth taking. I kinda want to field a mounted scout army.
- the slight changes to Regiments (an extra nerve across the board, it seems, and increase in # of attacks) made them more threatening than in KoW1
- the new army composition rules are fantastic. I couldn't figure out how to make a spam list. Making regiments and hordes the basic building block was a brilliant idea.
The game was very close - both of us veteran KoW1 players - neck and neck until turn 5, when my Warsmith unleashed his double-barrel into the Vampire's head and killed him and by turn 6 when I was able to break the zombie horde and skeleton horde, and my berserker lord managed to not die by a margin of 1 on a nerve check after being plastered with damage. My dwarves were able to pull a victory, but barely, and only because of the last turn - otherwise it would have been a draw or a slight undead victory.
So, my verdict - with one game, mind you, so take that caveat - is that KoW2 is not just what I had thought it was before - a slightly improved KoW1. It is wholly improved, not only fixing the few problems I had with it before, but has also been made better in ways I didn't think it needed (and argued against changing)
I am incredibly happy. The general manager of one of the three FLGS, who has played KoW1 a few times, was impressed with hearing my observations and he's planning on carrying the KoW2 hardback after they finish dumping WHFB (as a lot of local WHFB are super pissed about 9th)
Thanks for the mini-report and thoughts on the rules, you have convinced me KoW2 is worth trying (as a new player with very few opponents, I was just considering sticking with KoW1). I like the sound of improved shooting and better stats for Regiments.
Paradigm wrote: Thanks for the mini-report and thoughts on the rules, you have convinced me KoW2 is worth trying (as a new player with very few opponents, I was just considering sticking with KoW1). I like the sound of improved shooting and better stats for Regiments.
It's definitely worth trying. One of the Hail Caesar players in our gaming group swung by to watch the game and was impressed, he's wanted to add some fantasy elements to his Hail Caesar armies and was quite excited. So I expect there will be any number of bronze age armies joining our battles
heartserenade wrote: Okay that made me feel better. I have a buttload of longbowmen and I'd be sad if shooting is still terrible.
I'm actually a little miffed because my completed armies had very few ranged units, and now I want more ranged units.
let me point out that a troop of Elf Scouts, with a Ra of 4+ and Nimble, would be hitting on 3's if they move into within 6" of their target. This is versus their 5+ Me. So the revised system definitely makes ranged combat effective.
For the first time, it looks like a regiment of Seaguard are a viable unit. 15 Attacks with Me and Ra of 4+, yessir! Combined with the revised Phalanx rule, that makes them INCREDIBLY effective on the KoW2 battlefield.
I've heard there is very positive movement in regards to the KoW Beta and the Rules Council. Between that and the Jetbikes Mantic's earned a bit of goodwill today.
Thanks for the awesome report! Come Monday we will probably play our first 2nd Edition game. I expect Goblin Fleabag Riders to earn their keep now with the changes in shooting and nimble!
New update, found this part especially interesting
- We will be putting out tournament legal army lists for lots of non-Mantic armies. These will not be canon in KoW IP but they’ll be great to battle with and against. I think a book detailing say 10 new armies would make an excellent addition – with the armies being either historical or fantasy themed (this is where the Twilight Kin will live until we get them their own Mantic sculpts and a full army – at which point we move them into the main canon). This will allow people with existing armies a chance to play KoW – which is good for us all when we are trying to find an opponent.
adamsouza wrote: If they add a lizardmen Army I know there will be more than a few Warhammer Fantasy players looking to do somehting with those models once.
Seems likely considering that it was one of the earlier fanlists that were made. I´m also expecting a ratmen, evil humans and a beastmen army.
Polonius wrote: Yeah, I'm not sure making lists like that will help with sales, but it will get people using the rules.
GateWay Drug Theory -
They use the free rules and decide they like the rules.
They play more and decide to buy their own rule book.
They read the rulebook, like the fiction and pretty pictures, then buy a Mantic Army.
It has been easy to make changes to the beta, since most of the stuff the public wants is stuff the RC wanted too and already developed working suggestions for months ago.
I hope the same working process that has happened with KoW also happens with the new Deadzone rules, since it is the system in most dire need of a rewrite (I am on both the Deadzone and KoW committees).
The new army lists will basically be a matter of officializing some of the better "not-GW" lists that currently exist. If GW scraps armies or units with 9th edition, every model in every scrapped army will have a home in games of Kings of War.
Mantic knows that it has a huge chance to get WHFB players to convert, and will make it as easy as possible.
How are the carnosaurs proxied? I've had a bad habit of picking up big lizardmen units, so if I get an excuse to run multiple carnosaurs as some sort of monstrous cavalry, I'll be all over it.
I'm pretty sure the elves have dino/dragon calvary. The allies system for KoW is pretty forgiving. Worst case scenario is you might have to field some skinks with elven archer stats to unlock the dino riders.
adamsouza wrote: I'm pretty sure the elves have dino/dragon calvary. The allies system for KoW is pretty forgiving. Worst case scenario is you might have to field some skinks with elven archer stats to unlock the dino riders.
Hadn't even thought of that! Good idea. Because obviously my lizards are way more 'leet than every other race.
While not fantasy related, did anyone else notice how they mentioned after they finish the deadzone KS that they were done with kickstarter for a long time....I took that as no warpath kickstarter, straight to retail or pushed back to next year.
Theophony wrote: While not fantasy related, did anyone else notice how they mentioned after they finish the deadzone KS that they were done with kickstarter for a long time....I took that as no warpath kickstarter, straight to retail or pushed back to next year.
I imagine Warpath will be pushed back a year, to let them get KoW 2nd released with adequate model support.
adamsouza wrote: Is there already a "Not-GW" Lizardmen Army list, beyond "just use the Orks list" ?
There's a v1 army list here which was written by Matt Gilbert who is the team leader of the rules committee. Expect the official list to be based on this one, brought up to v2 standards as per the rest of v1 lists.
Theophony wrote: While not fantasy related, did anyone else notice how they mentioned after they finish the deadzone KS that they were done with kickstarter for a long time....I took that as no warpath kickstarter, straight to retail or pushed back to next year.
It was said last year that the idea was to include plastic kits for the basic troops for each faction in the DZ2 Kickstarter.
The Warpath KS would then focus on the rulebook and vehicles, with it's core models already provided by the DZ line.
That and they are trying to keep the number of Kickstarters they run a year to a managable number for themselves, and they felt that Warpath in 2015 was one too many.
adamsouza wrote: Is there already a "Not-GW" Lizardmen Army list, beyond "just use the Orks list" ?
There's a v1 army list here which was written by Matt Gilbert who is the team leader of the rules committee. Expect the official list to be based on this one, brought up to v2 standards as per the rest of v1 lists.
Thanks, that's exactly what I was looking for. I have a Warhammer Fantasy Playing Friend I want to convert to a KoW player and lizards are his thing.
If there are no more kickstarters after this, when will I get my fantasy inspired Deadzone?
Thanks for giving a link to that lizard list. I had been wanting to track that down! Now to go plan out an army list!
Would be curious how a Bastiladon would work if it's carrying an Ark of Sotek. I'd guess the solar engine would be pretty easy to compare to most war machines, but with the snakes, makes me wonder if it would have a set amount of units it could place with it, and have those swarms use a regeneration rule for as long as the ark is in play?
Polonius wrote: Yeah, I'm not sure making lists like that will help with sales, but it will get people using the rules.
I'm pulling for crossover lists for warpath as well.
More people using the rules means more players included and into the playerbase overall - this increases the chances that people will buy Mantic models - either as a second (third, etc) army or because of critical mass when KoW becomes a game that more people are playing.
The new army lists will basically be a matter of officializing some of the better "not-GW" lists that currently exist. If GW scraps armies or units with 9th edition, every model in every scrapped army will have a home in games of Kings of War.
Mantic knows that it has a huge chance to get WHFB players to convert, and will make it as easy as possible.
That's one reason I'm so head-scratchy at the butchery done to the 2e KoM list. I have a friend who wanted to build Vikings, and planned to use the Pentinents for Thrall Levy - Nevermind Empire. Making everything into a Cannon or Catapult is also silly - from a Scorpion (Arbalest) to an Organ Gun to a Mortar - especially when the rules for all of them remain in the game...
Polonius wrote: Yeah, I'm not sure making lists like that will help with sales, but it will get people using the rules.
I'm pulling for crossover lists for warpath as well.
More people using the rules means more players included and into the playerbase overall - this increases the chances that people will buy Mantic models - either as a second (third, etc) army or because of critical mass when KoW becomes a game that more people are playing.
The new army lists will basically be a matter of officializing some of the better "not-GW" lists that currently exist. If GW scraps armies or units with 9th edition, every model in every scrapped army will have a home in games of Kings of War.
Mantic knows that it has a huge chance to get WHFB players to convert, and will make it as easy as possible.
That's one reason I'm so head-scratchy at the butchery done to the 2e KoM list. I have a friend who wanted to build Vikings, and planned to use the Pentinents for Thrall Levy - Nevermind Empire. Making everything into a Cannon or Catapult is also silly - from a Scorpion (Arbalest) to an Organ Gun to a Mortar - especially when the rules for all of them remain in the game...
They've stated they tried removing things they thought wouldn't upset people, and after having upset people, they've put them back in. I think you'll see units returning to the fold without issue.
@Azazelx: there are two future man-based (neither exclusively human) lists on the drawing board, one of which should scratch a Viking itch. No idea how far in the future that is.
I'm sorry I have to ask this, but will there be a second pledge manager? I can't pay for KoW and DZ2 at the same time. I'm also only really interested in the new Abyssals and Nature plastics, are they planning to give us antoher chance to get them after seeing some proper previews?
The new army lists will basically be a matter of officializing some of the better "not-GW" lists that currently exist. If GW scraps armies or units with 9th edition, every model in every scrapped army will have a home in games of Kings of War.
Mantic knows that it has a huge chance to get WHFB players to convert, and will make it as easy as possible.
I don't think it's a case of 'if'. Remember that a lot of guys that work in this industry around Nottingham will know each other and hear from the grapevine what is coming, probably months if not years in advance. That Mantic are doing this I think it indicative that big changes are afoot for WHFB 9th edition, and they want to be in prime position to pick up a load of disgruntled players who suddenly find that their investments of time and money don't fit in with GW's universe.
They've stated they tried removing things they thought wouldn't upset people, and after having upset people, they've put them back in. I think you'll see units returning to the fold without issue.
Yes, I'm glad to see the Wights unremoved. I don't mind them being based on 40mm and turned into Large Infantry, etc. I'm hoping they return the pentinents and priests as well, but I'm not at all optimistic about the war machines as Ronnie specifically mentioned them in their new, flavourless condensed form in his update.
Baragash - are these the "counts-as WHFB human-ish army lists", or new Mantica ones? I'd like to see Norse with a mix of Vikings and Norse Dwarves, like the old days.
I certainly hope that these guys are properly on target to properly pick up the WHFB armies that don't currently have proxy lists. I've got a lot of stuff waiting in the wings...
I'm pretty excited about proxy lists, too. I actually last played WHFB in 6th, because it really got too convoluted, but I have loads of armies still in the cellar and the KoW core rules look lovely.
angelshade00 wrote: Thanks for the awesome report! Come Monday we will probably play our first 2nd Edition game. I expect Goblin Fleabag Riders to earn their keep now with the changes in shooting and nimble!
@angelshade may I ask where this takes place? Or just in a house of some friend?
lord_blackfang wrote: I'm sorry I have to ask this, but will there be a second pledge manager? I can't pay for KoW and DZ2 at the same time. I'm also only really interested in the new Abyssals and Nature plastics, are they planning to give us antoher chance to get them after seeing some proper previews?
I'm almost certain the're doing a new round of the PM before each of the next 2 waves
Sure, I was just making a hopeful (and probably wrong) guess based on what Baragash said.
Baragash wrote: @Azazelx: there are two future man-based (neither exclusively human) lists on the drawing board, one of which should scratch a Viking itch. No idea how far in the future that is.
timetowaste85 wrote: Squig, you make it sound like Mantic is some kind of evil genius or something...
Well, you know what they are? Anyone who has met Ronnie and crew will attest to this... They're DEFINITELY gamers. They haven't lost touch with the joy of play, and being hobbyists, and having fun. Its actually refreshing, because you still feel enthusiasm when dealing with many Mantic folk.
Not every decision is a hit, and not necessarily every call the right one, but i'll be damned if everything doesn't come from a place of good intentions.
Mantic should get into "bed" with Gripping Beasts. Sell there plastics as Viking and Middle Eastern troops and make the fantasy elements like Yetis, Magic Carpets, Camel Cannons etc.
Kings of War pledge manager will be extended.
We are aware there have been a few issues and it is a complicated Pledge manager with many options. So please do not worry about the deadline we will be leaving it open for at least another week.
Further updates to follow.
The only time sensitive information is mainly if want an existing army because we are ordering those in shortly to get to in the summer ahead of the book. If you have want an existing army please do keep trying to get your pledge in so we can get your army ready but anytime in the next few days is fine.
@Azazelx: Mantica-based armies, not not-other-people's. I don't remember if Dwarfs were mentioned but I don't think so (neither army is pure human). That's not to say they won't get Dwarfs necessarily, just that they weren't mentioned.
Finalized my order, went for the $50 basic pledge. Just not willing to drop more since we haven't seen all the new stuff yet. Only glitch I ran into is its not listing the Ronaldo the bard free figure, and didn't apply my $1 pledge credit to the order.
PRESS RELEASE – April 1, 2015
For immediate release
Mantic Games announces Kings of War: Final Days
With the massive success of its Kings of War fantasy miniature mass battle miniature game, Mantic is pleased to announce the latest edition : Final Days.
The new edition of the game features:
Exciting new rules, including new game breaking magic system
Brand new units costing over $100 each, which you can’t win a game without
Destruction of several beloved armies. Just throw those minis away because they no longer exist in our world
Loads of special characters that are so powerful, you won’t need any other units on the table
The new edition will be released in a series of 5 $100 supplements, each of which will detail a small piece of the destruction of the current world, and including retro-active rules to destroy any semblance of the current game balance as you know it.
Mantic founder and president, Rennie Ronton, was quoted as saying “We know what our customers want. We don’t need to do market surveys or ask them, they just need to buy everything we put out and quit complaining. You thought it was bad what we did to wights – wait until you see how we are going to ****-up the dwarfs!”
Updated army lists have been released by the committee:
Welcome to Phase 2 of the KoW v2 beta. Based on feedback and some other changes we have introduced you now have some revised rules and army lists to look through and help us test. The updated rules are still being formatted and Mantic will post these and make them available next week. The army lists and special rules are available now.
The goal of Phase 2
This all about testing the balance of the lists and making sure the points values are right. Additionally, if a unit’s stats are a little off, those can be tweaked too.
There are to be no major rules changes at this point unless something is fundamentally broken. No rule wish-listing, suggestions for new units, discussions on army alignments etc. are now allowed! We need to stress test the army lists and get them as balanced as we can and for that we need people playing and reporting on games only. Any other discussions should be raised on the normal forums please (and will be moved there if put here) but are out of scope now for v2.
To that end all the existing threads are now closed. The only new threads that will be accepted are [BATREP] and [BUG] threads for the updated lists and rules. Battle reports should list the armies used, a brief description of the game (a paragraph or two; turn-by-turn not required unless you really want to), the outcome and then thoughts on points balance and unit effectiveness. A bug must be something you have found by playing games and seeing it in action. Any thread that is simply theorising will closed.
If we see consistent issues with the points value of a unit or a unit under-performing or not fulfilling its role correctly, we will make an adjustment and let you know in this thread. The spreadsheet to the army lists will be a living document in that regard and we will make it clear if we change something.
In addition, we (the RC) will start special threads [PLAYTEST] if there is some aspect of the rules or a unit or army which we need people to focus on and help resolve. We hope these will be rare.
They promised me about 3 times during the KoW2 Kickstarter that they would add me onto the Dungeon Saga Pledgemanager, having missed that campaign. I've since given up, and decided it was better to save the money.
Is this a real, official new set of army lists? With all of that stuff that Alessio removed added back in with more besides? Wraiths, Militia, Berserkers, Ballistae!
At a glance, I'm liking almost everything that I see, excepting chariot units being 3/6 instead of 2/4/6 - purely on model practicality grounds.
Is this a real, official new set of army lists? With all of that stuff that Alessio removed added back in with more besides? Wraiths, Militia, Berserkers, Ballistae!
At a glance, I'm liking almost everything that I see, excepting chariot units being 3/6 instead of 2/4/6 - purely on model practicality grounds.
Well done, RC!
These are real, official. We're aware of the chariot base sizes, however we do have to take into account that people have already multibased chariots. In the end the "retain current sizes" argument won out.
It lloks like the same dragon from the contentious renders, just photographed from an angle that hides his flaws, like I do when wearing a kilt. My balls were not amazed.
There were plenty of units removed though just look in forces of nature, they lost most of their beasts and the greater elementals as well. I think it helps as that army just seemed like every other idea that had been tossed around got put in there.
Manticores....put them in twilight kin....oh wait we're not doing them.....forces of nature.
Unicorns....put them in baselian.....no that's too much like GWs brettonia.....forces of nature
Treemen......how about a woodland elf faction?......nope forces of nature
how about a sphinx.....undead....Nope forces of nature
Theophony wrote: There were plenty of units removed though just look in forces of nature, they lost most of their beasts and the greater elementals as well. I think it helps as that army just seemed like every other idea that had been tossed around got put in there.
Manticores....put them in twilight kin....oh wait we're not doing them.....forces of nature.
Unicorns....put them in baselian.....no that's too much like GWs brettonia.....forces of nature
Treemen......how about a woodland elf faction?......nope forces of nature
how about a sphinx.....undead....Nope forces of nature
They still have Unicorns, Treemen and now 2 more varieties of Greater Elementals .
The Manticores/Chimeras etc were combined into a single entry though, they were all very, very similar stat wise.
These are real, official. We're aware of the chariot base sizes, however we do have to take into account that people have already multibased chariots. In the end the "retain current sizes" argument won out.
Understood. It's a shame that something more couldn't have been done with them. (2/3/4/6 maybe?) Using the Troop/Regiment/Horde/Avalanche designations perhaps. Still, the rest looks great so far!
Yeah, I've got a bunch of dwarf stuff I'm slowly trying to unload, including a whole box of Irondrakes I was going to dump on ebay since they look so diminutive- even for dwarfs!
My Ironguard are bigger than they are! That's kind of sad, considering those GW guys are supposed to be decked out in super awesome heavy armor.
They do kind of look like Stormrage vets though, don't they? I'd already been thinking of replacing my Dwarfs with ForgeFathers as it stands...
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Yeah, I've got a bunch of dwarf stuff I'm slowly trying to unload, including a whole box of Irondrakes I was going to dump on ebay since they look so diminutive- even for dwarfs!
My Ironguard are bigger than they are! That's kind of sad, considering those GW guys are supposed to be decked out in super awesome heavy armor.
They do kind of look like Stormrage vets though, don't they? I'd already been thinking of replacing my Dwarfs with ForgeFathers as it stands...
Man, I used my store credit to buy irondrakes. I'll still be happy to trade you them for uh... I don't know... How about this lamp? Or I've got plenty of Mantic dwarfs if you are interested.
I'll probably make a thread in WHFB off topic about their ridiculously diminutive stature. See you there.
Anyway, those forge fathers look fantastic. I will definitely be down for an army's worth if the price is right.
I filled out my KoW pledge manager about a month back, but just realised I wanted to add a unit or 2 of Orge Berserkers. Anyone know if you can go back in and make any additions to it? Don't want to change my main pledge, just stick on addons.
Per ronnies video on Friday/Saturday they were reopening both KOW2 and dungeon saga for another week, so you should be able to adjust right now till Friday.
Tweaked all ranged infantry % costs
Army standard bearers in every army have had their melee values increased by one (in most cases 4+ to 5+)
Goblin Flaggits defence increased to 4 (from 3)
Orc Flaggers attacks reduced to 1 (from 2)
Orc Flagger Points decreased to 50 (from 60)
Removed Regeneration and Divine off Elohi, ur-elohi and the living legend elohi, reduced nerve by 1 but they are now unwavering. Normal Elohi now also have inspiring.
Removed Regeneration from Werewolves
Reduced points on Soul Reaver Infantry to 180/260 from 200/285
Orcsbains amulet points increased
Ogres are still smashing skulls everywhere. No change there.
Removed Regeneration from Lycanis
Ranger captain is now inspiring to rangers only (points increased by 10)
War Drum changed to a new and exciting rule!, it's now also fearless but has reduced defence
Dwarf Rifles increased by 5 points at regiment level
Abyssal Berserkers are now unwavering
Naiads Are now Regen 4+ (From 5)
Flamebearers now have Firebolt (18" ranged weapon)
Lots of changes to Abyssals
Magequeen costs rebalanced
Pegasus is now a Hero(Large Cav)
All - Reworked Breath Attack War Engines
All - Pets reduced cost in all lists except Abyssal Dwarfs
All - Adjusted prices for all ranged hordes (slight increase)
All - Lesser mounts (For Wizards and Army Standards etc) have all been upped by 5 points to 15.
All - Balanced points between Dwarf Earth Elementals and Nature Elementals
All - Increased the Necromancer/Basilean War-Wizard Lightning bolt option to (3) (From 2), Points also increased.
Abyssal Dwarfs - Removed Pathfinder from Lesser and Greater Obsidian Golems, decreased points to compensate
Abyssal Dwarfs - Katsuchan Rocket Launcher has been reworked to have multiple attacks but very small blasts.
Abyssal Dwarfs - Grog Mortar has had it's blast decreased by 1.
Abyssals - Abyssal Champs revisited
Abyssals - Elite removed from the Iffrit and points increased
Abyssals - Hellhounds and Mawbeasts and now Height 1.
Basileans - Abbess on Panther chariot has lost Headstrong but gained Vicious.
Basileans - Jullius is now Very Inspiring
Basileans - Twin souls now changed to have global range
Dwarfs - Warsmith rules amended to improve synergy with cannons.
Dwarfs - Dwarf Rangers now hit on a 5+, Their points have been decreased to compensate.
Elves - Elves equipped with bows no longer hit on a 4+, instead they hit on a 5+ and have Piercing (1).
Elves - Elven Silverbreeze cavalry have been rebalanced and points have increased to compensate.
Goblins - Trolls no longer irregular in Goblins
Goblins - Goblin Sharpstick Thrower has been reworked to have 2 shots. (as per the KS concept arts)
KoM - The Captain points reduced
KoM - KoM Mounted Scouts no longer have the options for rifles, but can now choose to pay for an upgrade to carbines which have range 18" and Piercing (1). No more Reload!
Nature - The Druid has been reworked and rebalanced.
Ogres - Ogre Warlocks Breath reduced to 12 (from 15) and Lightning Bolt increased to 3 (from 2)
Orcs - Morax nerve increased
Orcs - Orc Gore Riders reduced
Orcs - Orc wardrum is now -2 to all nerve tests, with pts decrease
Orcs - Wip the halfcast no longer has Crushing Strength
Undead - Zombie horde's attacks fixed
Undead - Zombie trolls now hit on a 4+
Naiads seem a lot more heavily armored then I expected. I'm alright with that. I like the frog and otter on the sprue. Gotta keep up the Mantic tradition of animal companions on there!
Hopefully the Abyssal and Salamander sprues can squeeze on a mascot.
Of course, I'm really liking those salamanders. So much so that I feel it's appropriate to post this.
Good thing they made a standard bearer and musician for the Niaids , between that and the frog AND otter there's going to be a lot of wasted sprue space.
War wizard obviously is a mercenary as everyone else from Basilea has hulk hogan arms.
Theophony wrote: Good thing they made a standard bearer and musician for the Niaids , between that and the frog AND otter there's going to be a lot of wasted sprue space.
War wizard obviously is a mercenary as everyone else from Basilea has hulk hogan arms.
Yeah, they should probably have ignored literally everyone (but you?) asking for a return to the oldstyle Mantic sprues that had tons of extra bits on them. Mantic... almost.
Theophony wrote: Good thing they made a standard bearer and musician for the Niaids , between that and the frog AND otter there's going to be a lot of wasted sprue space.
War wizard obviously is a mercenary as everyone else from Basilea has hulk hogan arms.
Yeah, they should probably have ignored literally everyone (but you?) asking for a return to the oldstyle Mantic sprues that had tons of extra bits on them. Mantic... almost.
Can't read tone there soooooo.....
I'm all for more parts, and the pets are nice, but if you wind up with 20 otters and 20 frogs when buying an army there's probably something better that could have fit in the sprue. I like my not snotlings from my orc hoards, but I have 20+ of the same 3 or 4 models. At least there I can make bases of them.
I hope so too, all I can add right now is the $50 pledge, money is too tight
Theophony wrote: I'm all for more parts, and the pets are nice, but if you wind up with 20 otters and 20 frogs when buying an army there's probably something better that could have fit in the sprue. I like my not snotlings from my orc hoards, but I have 20+ of the same 3 or 4 models. At least there I can make bases of them.
I think you're missing out on a big opportunity to make two regiments of Frog and Otter counts-as Sylvan kin
Barzam wrote: I'm sure someone won't like it, but I like the added touch of the dude snared in the net.
Adds a sinister air to the army. Humanoids from the Deep, but gender-flipped?
I love the heavily armored Naiads. The Salamanders also look good. What's Mantic playing at?
Man stealing supernaturals? I can dig it. As for what Mantic is playing at: being evil. They are improving and getting more of my money.
I'll hold off final judgement until I get them but currently the salamanders are whispering "Buy more. Buy more." However I think the Niads in the starter army will be enough for me. They look a tad chunkier than I'd like and I'm not sold on the harpoons or nets.
I'm not a fan of what I can see of the naiads. When I first suggested Atlanteans as a faction more than four years ago it was as a lightly armoured race, as is fitting for a race that will naturally spend a lot more of its time swimming or walking on sand or mud than your average knight, and also one whose development of the tools to produce this kind of armour would be hamstrung by their natural habitat. And while these renders are far too small to make out such detail (why, Mantic?) I did not like the concept art for the faces.
I'm glad that everybody seems to be liking the Naiads and Salamanders. I also think it is great to see Mantic branching out like this and making some pretty original stuff in plastic. I think the otter and frog are awesome. Hopefully I can score some off bits sellers.
I just don't really like either the Naiads or the Salamanders. The Salamanders look too cartoony for my tastes (nothing wrong with that, it's just not my thing) and I really don't like their heads. They just don't look very lizardy to me.
The Naiads...I don't know. I'm just not interested in water people. I can't stand their weird sideways crossbows. No way those work. It just seems like a dumb "different for the sake of different" design choice. Other than that, the designs look good, I'm just not interested in them as a race or design choice I guess.
Abyssal Dwarfs - Ironcaster Points increased by to 105 (From 85)
Abyssal Dwarfs - Slave Orcs can now be taken in hordes (Have fun David)
Abyssal Dwarfs - Grotesque Champion +1 Nerve
All - Reduced attatcks on all ranged infantry to 8/10/20 from 10/12/25
All - Banechant Cost rebalanced to: BC(1) = 10 pts, BC(2) = 15 pts, BC(3) = 20 pts
All - Base Sizes & heights listed
All - Legions nerve reduced by 2
Dwarfs - Sharpshooters extreme range to 24"
Elves - Dropped Ra on most units to Ra4, also removed piercing, seaguard remain at Ra5+
Elves - Seaguard Points reduced slightly
Elves - Bolt Thrower up to 80 (From 70)
Elves - Forest Warden +1 Nerve
Goblins - Biggit Ra reduced to 4+ (From 5+)
Goblins - Fleabags Riders and Sniffs speed increased to 10 (from 9)
Goblins - Troll Bruisher +1 Nerve
Kingdoms of Men - Beast of War Ballista amended (Ra5+) and increased points
Magic Items - Blade of Slashing reduced to 5 points (from 10)
Magic Items - Mace of Crushing has been rewritten
Magic Items - Orcsbains amulet of thrones points increased to 35 (from 25)
Magic Items - Brew of Keen-eyeness increased to 50 (from 35)
Nature - Forest Warden +1 Nerve
Ogres - Heavy Crossbows reverted back to regular ranged attacks
Ogres - Captain gets Reload with Heavy Crossbow
Ogres - Added Ballista upgrade for Mammoth
Ogres - Red Goblin Scouts speed increased to 10 (from 9)
Ogres - Chariots points drop from 195 to 170 for a regiment
Ogres - Hero chariot upgrades dropped to 15 points
Ogres - Captain +1 Nerve
Ogres - Captain +1 Nerve
Special Rules - Fly now hindered if they land in difficult terrain.
Undead - Zombie no longer Irregular
Undead - Undead Trolls renamed to Zombie Trolls - Brains....
Undead - Vampire on Dragon points increased by 10 to 330 (From 320)
Undead - Balefire points increased to 100 (From 95)
Undead - Lykanis +1 Nerve
on the Ogre army list, it says:Heavy Crossbows: This unit's ranged attacks have a range of 36" and an extreme range of 24"
Okay, I haven't played for a while, but what's going on here? I don't think there is such a thing as extreme range anywhere in the rules document (and it being searchable made it quite easy to confirm that) and even if you want to, for example, create a -1 to hit penalty at >24" is this really the way to phrase that? (or am I just missing something blindingly obvious?)
Doesn't really matter in the end, since the post above yours says they lost their heavy crossbows and reverted back to regular ranged attack crossbows.
Reading on some facebook posts it appears as if extreme range is the range after which a -1 is applied to dice rolls to hit. I belive it was set at 28" unless states otherwise (war engines had a longer extreme range).
The whole rules revision aspect is being held in the worst way. Alessio working one day a week, the Beta being months late, and now the RC under the gun with weekly changes for the community to playtest, and then having only a (relatively) small amount of feedback in hand to base their changes off.
At least the RC seem to have a lot more influence now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: *"worst" being a relative term. I mean, external and open playtesting is obviously a lot better than none (you know what I mean) and Ronnie has been receptive to (overwhelming) feedback from the playerbase that reflected what the RC had been saying all along. But because of severe early delays, the playtest-feedback-adjustment timeframe is now horribly rushed for what is supposed to be one of Mantic's flagship games so it can be out in time for GW to shed its WHFB playerbase.
It's less about GW and more about not having significant product handling for one project bleed into another and lead to organisational disaster. They did extend the deadline for the public beta compared to it's original plan.
"Extreme range" is a -1 to hit penalty over 18". It's deliberately not called "long range" to avoid confusion with the convention of "long range" being half a weapon's range.
Okay, thanks all! Is there an updated rules document now or is it still just the original beta document with this only on Facebook and in the army lists spreadsheet?
Differences to that document were listed on the special rules tab of our spreadsheet, though admittedly we should have perhaps advertised that a bit better.
We've submitted our final core rules changes today for Alessio to integrate. The core rules will then be locked in, with just army list changes from then on (barring typos of course). Hopefully we'll get an updated doc today or tomorrow.
I wouldn't be so quick to condemn mantic for the beta being so late - I'm not sure that they made claims on timescales (I might be wrong though). It was the RC early on seeing the initial rate of development and thinking we'd have the beta out in time for the open day... then for Christmas... then for early in the year...
If the RC had the power then that they have now then yes, the beta would have been out by the open day and we'd have had nearly 6 months of testing.
We are conducting extensive testing and discussions behind the scenes. I got a warning from my boss last week because I was constantly on my phone... I've done nearly nothing in my spare time except make scenery for the rulebook photography or discuss KoW for the past 2 weeks. We're not just basing our changes on the feedback we get from the public :-)
NTRabbit wrote: Doesn't really matter in the end, since the post above yours says they lost their heavy crossbows and reverted back to regular ranged attack crossbows.
Or maybe I'm misreading something as well
They're no longer (n) with blast d3 - they use their normal amount of attacks with no blast. Heavy Crossbows are a normal ranged weapon with a range of 36" and extreme range of 24".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Azazelx wrote: You guys better get your names in the book. You deserve that at the very least.
Before Matt Gilbert saved the day I didn't even want my name in the book...
I don't know about that. The initial plan was to send out a first wave of existing models, but given the time until launch I suspect it may just be a combined first wave.
General - Extreme Range Removed
General - Cavalry Hordes and Large Infantry Legions Pts % Slightly Increased
General - Giants no longer suffer the penalty for hindered charges.
Magic Items - Blasting Arrow - Removed
Magic Items - Brew of Keen-eyeness - Decreased points to 45 (from 50)
Magic Items - Brew of Sharpness - Increased points to 45 (from 40)
Magic Items - Darklords Onyx ring - Reduced points to 20 (from 40)
Magic Items - Heartseeking Chant - Now works with spells.
Magic Items - Kaba's Holy Hand - No longer requires Good units to take, now always hits on a 4+ regardless of modifiers.
Magic Items - Kevinar's Flying Hammer - Changed to 12" Range, now always hits on a 4+
Magic Items - Myrddin’s Amulet of the Fire-heart - No longer requires lightning bolt
Magic Items - Myrddin’s Dwarven Rune Stones - Removed
Magic Items - Piercing Arrow - Operates like Mace of crushing for ranged attackks
Magic Items - Quicksilver Blade renamed to Quicksilver Rapier
Magic Items - Scarletmaw’s Fenulian Amulet - Now Increases Lightning bolt by 2.
Mhorgoth - Can only grant regeneration to non hero units
Abyssal Dwarfs - Abyssal Grotesques - 50x50mm bases.
Abyssal Dwarfs - Angkor Mortar - Increased points to 120 (from 110)
Abyssal Dwarfs - Brakki Barka - Increased Nerve by 1
Abyssal Dwarfs - Grog Mortar - Increased points to 100 (from 85)
Abyssal Dwarfs - Rocket Launcher - Increased points to 85
Abyssals - Flamebearers - Nerve increased by 1
Abyssals - Iffrit - Can no longer take Surge
Basileans - Elohi - Increased Nerve by 1 to 14/17 from (13/16), Points also increased slightly
Basilean - Crossbows - Reduced Points slightl
Dwarf - Rangers - Now uses the correct point % for ranged troops
Dwarfs - Bulwarkers - Increased Points slightly
Dwarfs - Cannon - Increased points to 110 (from 100
Dwarfs - Ironclad - Reduced Points slightly
Dwarfs - Ironguard - Increased Points slightly
Dwarfs - Ironwatch Crossbows - Reduced Points slightly
Dwarfs - Ironwatch Rifles - Reduced Points slightly
Dwarfs - Sharpshooters - No longer suffer from extreme range.
Elves - Scouts - Now have Melee 4 (from 5), reduced points by 5
Elves - Silverbreeze can no longer be taken as regiments, Troops points increased slightly.
Elves - War chariots - Decreased Speed to 8, Increased attacks, removed Nimble
Goblins - Fleabag Chariots - Increased attacks to 8/16, No longer have Nimbl
Goblins - Magwa and Jo'os - Slightly beefed up, increased number of attacks by 1, increased lightning bolt by 1 and increased nerve by 1, points increased by 10
Kingdoms of Men - Charioteers - Increased Speed to 8 (From 7), No longer have Nimble, Now have TC(2), Increased attacks to 8/16
Kingdoms of Men - Crossbows - Reduced Points slightl
Kingdoms of Me - Arquebuisiers - Reduced Points slightl
Nature - Air Elementals - No longer have Crushing Strength, Increased points by 5
Nature - Beast of Nature - Fly cost increased to 50 (from 40)
Nature - Centaur Chief - Bow Option reduced to 10 points (from 15)
Nature - Greater Elemental - Air option now only has CS(1), Water Elemental costs an extra 30
Nature - Pegasus - Increased points by 5
Natur - Winged Unicorn - No longer has Surge
Ogres - Heavy Crossbows - No longer suffer from extreme rang
Ogres - Red Goblins attacks reduced to match other ranged units.
Ogres - Warrior Legion - Increased Nerve by 1
Orcs - Chariots - Reduced upper nerve limit by 1, reduced points slightly
Orcs - Fight Wagons - Reduced upper nerve limit by 1, reduced points slightly
We won't be making another update next weekend (3rd May), the next one will be on the 10th. That will likely be the last public beta update before final submissions.
Some of the heads for the Succubi look good, some of them look bad. Hopefully there are enough of the good ones that the bad ones don't matter. It would also be nice if those seated succubi were the "pets" on the Succubi sprue, but we'll see.
Abyssals came out better than I expected. They remind me of the wee demons from the Diablo games, in a good sort of nostalgic way, although they do look kinda stupid.
The succubi are surprisingly good!
The dragon looks goofy. I'm sad. I was hoping it wouldn't be a goofy dragon, but alas, it seems we are thwarted again.
Ha! I really didn't like them before.... I do now though! Not sure why demons need clothes though and I don't think I would paint them red either. Now if only the Molochs wouldn't suffer from short leg syndrome I might get these!
Let these ship SOON. I backed for an Abyssal Mega Army for KOW, but since started a Chaos Daemons army for 40K and I soooooooooooo want these for my Daemonettes.
), the new spells add flavour and the tweaks here and there add a lot of character while not straying away from what made the core rules of 
