They hide it between the dragon's wings, but the dragon's spine is folded in half. This is doubly stupid when it has those massive scales along its back.
The wings are growing out of the dragon's armpits.
So the KoW V2 beta testing is over and lists/rules are finalised as far as the RC is concerned. We're currently waiting for Alessio/Mantic to give final approvals for our amendments and either release an updated PDF or give us permission to release an updated PDF so that people can have the full set before the rulebook is released to backers.
The biggest gameplay changes are that there are no short/long range modifiers for ranged attacks and units that suffer 1 or more points of damage in melee are disordered, rather than any units that were in melee. Ignore the list of artefacts and use the list in the army lists spreadsheet instead. There are numerous typos/wording corrections all over the place so don't worry about them.
Just checked the Kickstarter page. The expected shipping date is "July 2015".
I'm assuming they are not going to ship anything before that. If they can get the books, with the now finalized rules, printed before then, they can save a lot on shipping charges by just including the books with all of the existing army pledges, instead of shipping them seperately.
Thanks Daedleh. I've been grabbing the updates as you released them and getting games in. I'm pretty sure with this most recent update you guys have helped craft the most perfect mass battles ruleset ever written. I can't imagine all the hard work you and the rules committee went through, but I've never been more impressed with a ruleset. I cannot wait for the final pdf and hardcover. KoW went from one of the best rulesets to a contender for the best .
adamsouza, Matt Gilbert who's the head of the RC restored my confidence in the game and its development process He's been a fantastic team leader and provided the exact leadership I'd been expecting/hoping for from the start. The massive turnaround from the first beta to its current form is down to his leadership. The rest of the RC helped of course, as did the community in its excellent testing, reporting and feedback, but he has done an outstanding job at managing the beta testing period.
In terms of shipping waves, last I heard the initial plan was to ship out all existing minis in a first wave but for whatever reason that's not happened (I've not heard anything at all, I'm not just being coy here), so with the first batch of new releases being so close I'd be very surprised if they did a wave of shipping between now and July, when the rulebook gets sent out.
judgedoug wrote: Thanks Daedleh. I've been grabbing the updates as you released them and getting games in. I'm pretty sure with this most recent update you guys have helped craft the most perfect mass battles ruleset ever written. I can't imagine all the hard work you and the rules committee went through, but I've never been more impressed with a ruleset. I cannot wait for the final pdf and hardcover. KoW went from one of the best rulesets to a contender for the best .
Very much in agreement.
I came to the party late, but have been playing KoW and KoW2 constantly as of late. The more I play the more I realize it is one of the leanest, but most balanced and strategic miniatures systems I have ever played with. It really might be my Holy Grail game at this point.
I know people dislike the dragon, but from a realistic gaming perspective, that is a super convenient model. His pose and the nature of the material being one piece means I can probably take that model anywhere with barley the effort and packing of any tank and plop it down on a table.
Reaper (and other companies) make impressive dragons... and they look great. On the shelf. Or the gaming table which is walking distance of said shelf.
I wonder what that dragon will be retail? (or is it an exclusive?)
It's not an exclusive, but no idea of a retail price - in DS terms it will be in a boxed expansion which was $25 in the KS, but the mini is also doubling as the dragon mount for a bunch of KoW leaders, so it will be available there with each rider for retail.
Maybe $20-25 for dragon plus rider and saddle? It's about the same amount of material and labor as the Reaper dragons of the same price.
I like the dragon for those reasons, and I am happy that I have one coming to me with my pledge, don't get me wrong. I would just prefer a less chubby dragon with the same properties.
Same way I like Mantic Trolls in theory, but the small legs annoy me.
nkelsch wrote: I know people dislike the dragon, but from a realistic gaming perspective, that is a super convenient model. His pose and the nature of the material being one piece means I can probably take that model anywhere with barley the effort and packing of any tank and plop it down on a table.
Reaper (and other companies) make impressive dragons... and they look great. On the shelf. Or the gaming table which is walking distance of said shelf.
I wonder what that dragon will be retail? (or is it an exclusive?)
Very True. A dragon that can easily rank up alongside other units is what you want for tabletop gaming. In all the various KS's I've been a part of I've had lots of chances to buy cheap dragons, often impressively sculpted. However, the only Dragon I've bothered to paint until now is a Safari brand paint-and-play dragon. Partly because I like the old-school look, but mainly because it's a convenient size and has swept back wings (to fit in the toy-style packaging I assume) so it doesn't interfere with other figs on the tabletop.
RobertsMinis wrote: The Succubi might be nice models, but that colour scheme doesn't sell them to be. The rest of the Abyssals look great though.
Here's a quick recolour.
Do they make those in size 12?
I, uh, ask for a friend. A platonic friend.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tamereth wrote: Are they going to re-open the pledge manager for either dungeon saga or KOW2?
There are a few bits for each I'd go for now we have seen the sculpts.
I asked Dave Symonds and he wasn't sure. He will presumably get back to me.
I am getting quite excited for the release. Spent today looking at all the stuff I pledged for, it comes to something like 99 miniatures, 3 sets of tiles, 3D furniture and doors, full game with three expansions, all for $210!
Da Boss wrote: I am getting quite excited for the release. Spent today looking at all the stuff I pledged for, it comes to something like 99 miniatures, 3 sets of tiles, 3D furniture and doors, full game with three expansions, all for $210!
Me too!
Also for KoW. Wife and I went through everything we had ordered and totalled the points values...
We heard you and we're implementing changes.
Quality over quantity.
Plastic for troops and vehicles.
Restic only for oversized stuff. Yes, we used too much restic for small stuff in Dreadball, and won't be doing that again.
Metal or Resin for characters, limited ed, or small run figs.
Keeping Kickstarters down to two a year.
Warpath, only when it's ready. Not going to rush it.
To better support brick and motar and online dealers, retailer exclusive items planned in the future,
Mantic admits dropping the ball with Dreadball Extreme's release. Sites growing pains and new staff not being fully indoctrinated into what they were expected to do.
Rest of 2015 dedicated to Dungeon Saga and Kings of War 2.
Dungeon Saga Campaigns will tie directly into KoW fluff.
Deadzone fluff will tie directly into Warpath.
Deadzone KS1 backers will recieve FREE PDF version of the Updated Deadzone Infestation rulebook
Also 2 new official KoW factions planned, both Human centered. One is a neutral faction that uses Undead as a labour force (possibly Tomb King-ish, pyramids mentioned) while the other is good aligned Nords who are nature-themed.
Tonight's hang out didn't reveal anything new all I got from it was that the initial order for DS is for 18,000 copies which they forecast to sell out in 8 weeks and that Dust Studios are responsible for making Mantic's boardgame plastics. Warren asked about getting the DS plastic bases separately and Ronnie said he'll put it on the list of things to do.
Mantic on where KoW is going for the rest of the year. The short version is that they're doing two armies a month with new starter and mega boxes and any new releases. Global campaign starts in October with the Abyssal release, and will be Abyssal+Undead vs Everything Else; the map will be redrawn after the campaign ends to reflect the result. New Starter is Dwarves vs Undead again, and comes with the new books in August. Two new army list books (Not-Hammer and Historical Crossover) to follow but not for a while.
I don't even recall when they had it open. It must have been before we saw those Naiads and Salamanders, though, because I've been struggling to get them to take my money since then. The customer service people I've talked to either don't know or can't say if the KS will open again, and at least one of them promised I would be able to wait until I saw the final sculpts before completing the pledge manager. If they back out on that, I'm not going to be happy.
Mantic needs to have someone with authority handling the pledge managers. Ican't even keep track of who is saying what about which Pledge Manager any more, and apparently neither can the reps.
Does anyone here know when the DZ2 PM will be open and for how long?
They haven't said; hopefully they'll take some advice and not open it until they have a test shot of every new thing in the project for people to examine before buying, meaning they'll only need to open it once, and for a fortnight at most
Was any new Dwarf stuff added in the last KS? That could feature, I guess.
Undead are a no-brainer for any starter Mantic does, as they are quite possibly the best plastic Skellies/Zombies on the market, but for the opposition I think Dwarves are probably the safest bet. The Basaliens are poor or restic (which I don't mind, but many do), the Elves have a very Marmite aesthetic that might put of as many people as it draws in, and the Orcs (relative to the Dwarves) are don't mesh as well with GW/other not-GW stuff.
I wouldn't rule out a Nature vs Abyssals box once those are both out just to get both armies in the spotlight, though. What I'd really love to see is an Undead vs KoM with Perry HYW minis for the humans, but I doubt they'd do that, even though I believe Mantic have always used Perry stuff for their studio KoM force.
Paradigm wrote: Was any new Dwarf stuff added in the last KS? That could feature, I guess.
Undead are a no-brainer for any starter Mantic does, as they are quite possibly the best plastic Skellies/Zombies on the market, but for the opposition I think Dwarves are probably the safest bet. The Basaliens are poor or restic (which I don't mind, but many do), the Elves have a very Marmite aesthetic that might put of as many people as it draws in, and the Orcs (relative to the Dwarves) are don't mesh as well with GW/other not-GW stuff.
I wouldn't rule out a Nature vs Abyssals box once those are both out just to get both armies in the spotlight, though. What I'd really love to see is an Undead vs KoM with Perry HYW minis for the humans, but I doubt they'd do that, even though I believe Mantic have always used Perry stuff for their studio KoM force.
I know Mantic approached Perry to ask if they could make an "official" KoM force with their minis, including starter sets but the Perrys said no.
in which case it might be worth Mantic asking again now the Perry's non-compete clause over fantasy will (hopefully) no longer apply
This was right after they left GW. Not sure if they might have had a non-compete for x months clause, but I got the impression that Perrys were just done with fantasy altogether and didn't want anything to do with it. I suggested Fireforge minis as an alternative but not heard anything since.
If it was post GW and they were interested (but blocked by contract) they'd have felt free to say 'we can't yet, but talk to us in X years if you still want to collaborate)
since they didn't as Daedleh says they're probably just done with fantasy (at least for the moment)
How seriously do they take the whole number of models is more important than the base size thing? I ask because if GW goes round base I'm heartily tempted to mount my models into appropriately sized MDF trays for regiments but making the base the right size leaves me with a 4 wide rank for basic infantry instead of 5. So a 20 man unit would actually be 16 etc.
Didn't use to think it was a problem but it does say in the rules now to try to keep it near the number they state.
Hulksmash wrote: How seriously do they take the whole number of models is more important than the base size thing? I ask because if GW goes round base I'm heartily tempted to mount my models into appropriately sized MDF trays for regiments but making the base the right size leaves me with a 4 wide rank for basic infantry instead of 5. So a 20 man unit would actually be 16 etc.
Didn't use to think it was a problem but it does say in the rules now to try to keep it near the number they state.
I would keep it close to the number you're trying to represent, e.g. I don't think anyone would mind 16 figures representing a 20-strong unit.
Hell, as long as the base size is correct it technically makes zero difference rules-wise.
Hulksmash wrote: How seriously do they take the whole number of models is more important than the base size thing? I ask because if GW goes round base I'm heartily tempted to mount my models into appropriately sized MDF trays for regiments but making the base the right size leaves me with a 4 wide rank for basic infantry instead of 5. So a 20 man unit would actually be 16 etc.
Didn't use to think it was a problem but it does say in the rules now to try to keep it near the number they state.
It doesn't matter for anything beyond aesthetics. Personally, I use 8-12 on 25mm rounds for a regiment of '20', and it would play exactly the same as someone representing the same unit with 20 actual minis.
That's pretty much what I thought. And I have a chunk of GW stuff and generally like the models more (Dwarves & Elves) so I was mostly wondering how serious they are.
Plus I like a little bit of extra space between my models and saving on painting 20% of a unit is huge when you're talking numbers for KoW. Calvary also looks nicer in like the WotR bases they used to have and it looks like 3 would be the equivalent of 5.
Yeah, one of the cool IMO things about block based games like this, Black Powder, etc. is you can actually play with movement trays all decked out with fancy writing.
Purists find it anathema but I can see fantasy generals standing around a table with wooden/metal rectangles/other shapes moving around as representations of their huge armies.
Mantic should approach Gripping Beast. Their plastic Vikings would work as infantry for a Northern Kingdom of Men army. There Arabs as a Middle Eastern army. Add Yetis, Genies, Camel artillery, Ice Giants etc
RobertsMinis wrote: Mantic should approach Gripping Beast. Their plastic Vikings would work as infantry for a Northern Kingdom of Men army. There Arabs as a Middle Eastern army. Add Yetis, Genies, Camel artillery, Ice Giants etc
They had Fireforge and WGF models in pictures in the KoW 1st edition hardback.
RobertsMinis wrote: Mantic should approach Gripping Beast. Their plastic Vikings would work as infantry for a Northern Kingdom of Men army. There Arabs as a Middle Eastern army. Add Yetis, Genies, Camel artillery, Ice Giants etc
Mantic already plans to do their own Norse and Middle Eastern themed human armies in the future, it was in the open day sessions on youtube, they'll only source minis from elsewhere for lines they never plan to make themselves, ie Kingdoms of Men
The not-GW and other official unofficial lists are going to be posted on the Mantic forums for playtesting on June 7th, but they aren't letting on what they all are yet
Hulksmash wrote: The Beta rules don't really have a suggested point value that I saw. What is the suggested point value for KoW in second edition?
Also I'll be looking forward to Skaven and Lizardmen as the hopefully first written WFB converted armies
Six turns per player, 2000pts each, and roughly one-hour per player on a Chess-clock. Again, its all preference, but that seems to make for fun, fast, smooth tournament-style games.
Hulksmash wrote: The Beta rules don't really have a suggested point value that I saw. What is the suggested point value for KoW in second edition?
Also I'll be looking forward to Skaven and Lizardmen as the hopefully first written WFB converted armies
Six turns per player, 2000pts each, and roughly one-hour per player on a Chess-clock. Again, its all preference, but that seems to make for fun, fast, smooth tournament-style games.
My favorite is four players/two sides, 1,500 points per player, 45 minutes on the clock, shared by the two players on each side.
Hulksmash wrote: That's pretty much what I thought. And I have a chunk of GW stuff and generally like the models more (Dwarves & Elves) so I was mostly wondering how serious they are.
Plus I like a little bit of extra space between my models and saving on painting 20% of a unit is huge when you're talking numbers for KoW. Calvary also looks nicer in like the WotR bases they used to have and it looks like 3 would be the equivalent of 5.
I've been using round bases for quite awhile now. 4 models makes a KoW unit of 5. 8 models makes a unit of 10 (it's a little extra-deep, but hey), 12 makes a regiment of 20, and 24 models for 40. Cavalry work well as 3 for 5, 6 (or 5) for 10. Lots of examples if you scroll through down on the link.
https://azazelx.wordpress.com/category/kings-of-war/
Yeah, that's how they should look! GW's Treekin looked ridiculous. These ones are much better. Would likely even match in nicely with the Darklands tree dudes.
Check out www.goldendist.com
(one of the three main distributors in the USA, along with Alliance and ACD)
They've sent out tons of Kings of War 2 info to retailers already, and their main left panel features release information for a big Kings of War 2 push this summer. There's a PDF download with a bunch of info that Golden put together for retailers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Relevant copy-paste:
The Game
Massive battle combat system, troops are moved around the table-top
battlefield and the outcome of fights is decided using 6 sided dice.
Simply written, easy to learn rule set with tactical depth and challenge
Written by Veteran games designer Alessio Cavatore
The rules are written to be suitable for tournament play or casual play
Cross compatible with Mantic’s Dungeon Saga
Compatible with other fantasy miniature ranges...
Units remain in the game until totally destroyed leading to an aesthetically
pleasing table-top and wider modelling options.
----
The Future
During the second half of 2015 the Kings of War range is being refreshed with a
range of new releases, some of the items include:
JULY
MGKWU81-1 Undead Starter Force (90 miniatures) $84.99
MGKWE81-1 Elven Starter Force (75 miniatures) $84.99
MGKWU101 Undead Soul Reaver Cavalry (5 Miniatures) $24.99
MGKWE101 Forest Shamblers (3 Miniatures) $24.99
AUGUST
MGKW01 Kings of War 2nd Edition Hardback Rules (144 pg. book) $39.99
MGKW02 Kings of War 2nd Edition Deluxe Rules (114 pg. book, 96 pg. Gamers Book, Counter Set and
Wound Trackers) $64.99
MGKW03 Kings of War Counter Set $17.99
MGKW04 Kings of War Damage Trackers $17.99
MGKWD83-1 Dwarven Starter Force (75 Miniatures) $84.99
MGKWK83-1 Abyssal Dwarf Starter Force (50 Miniatures) $84.99
---
Retail Support
Retailer Organised Play Kit - that will help you run in
store activities and promote and keep customers
returning to your store
Point of Sale Materials - including Banners, Posters,
Flyers and Campaign Posters
Training Day Demonstration Kits - supply everything you
need to run demo games to help recruit new customers
Pathfinder Event Support – Mantic’s network of
volunteers can be booked to support your in store
demonstrations and events
Recommended Ranges which are easily expandable to
ensure you make the most of Mantic’s ranges in your
store
Branded website - which supports the game and
products
Articles / Features and Advertisement - through
Manticgames.com and social media
Free downloads from Manticgames.com including rules
Relevant information:
£44.99 (down from £50)
PRE-ORDER BEFORE THE 31ST JULY TO GET THE EXCLUSIVE LEGENDARY MORTIBRIS MINIATURE.
Swords, sorcerers, monsters and a dangerous adventure beyond compare. Assume the roles of mighty heroes and as they take on evil monsters in tight, twisting dungeon passages to thwart the vile Necromancer in his never ending quest to conquer the World!
Based on the classic fantasy characters and monsters we have all grown up with from the fantasy universe. Dungeon Saga is a classic dungeon crawler of swords and sorcery, where mighty heroes with various skills must work together to battle the evil monsters in a tight and twisting fantasy dungeon for treasure and glory. Able to play as either the heroic questers or as the master behind the forces of the Necromancer, this is a high quality set of pre-coloured plastic miniatures and scenery that can also be re-painted to enhance their look. This is a great game where your characters can progress and upgrade through gaining experience and treasures as through your journey and 3D interactive gaming environments allow you to really immerse yourself in the adventure. All the models provided are one piece miniatures meaning you can play straight out of the box with the stage by stage introduction to the rules and with the durable double sided gaming tiles you are in for hours of fun with endless dungeon combinations.
The game comes in ancient looking book presentation that provides a practical storage solution as well a unique and awesome looking set to sit on your shelf.
Designed by Jake Thornton, the man behind other great table top games such as Dreadball, Mars Attacks, Deadzone and many more.
This extensive set includes:
26 Hard Pre-coloured Plastic One Piece Miniatures
4 Heroes
4 Villains
18 Undead Minions
22 3D Scenery Components
10 Doors
50 Clear Plastic Clips
Rulebook
Getting Started Guide
Scenario Book
Cards
Counters
12 dice
8 Character Stat Card Sheets
8 Double Sided Floor Tiles
Please note models come pre-coloured, but are unpainted.
Wayland showed the tiles in their email (though the image is not on the site, so I've hosted it) (not sure if this image shows both sides of some of the double sided stuff or not)
well there's only one of the big squares, one of the 2x5 with one corridor each along the long edges and one of the Y-shaped corridors so that can't be it.
Having played it at the UK Games Expo, truth be told and not to be a negative nelly, but I'm kinda worried about the game.
It uses the same dice mechanic compared to DKH. - I had massive issues with that in Green Menace, when you had an orc and elf battering each other for 45 minutes doing absolutely 0 damage.
The Necromancer player was experienced at it, so sure, that's a massive advantage. But the fact that you only need to kill 1 model to win as the Necromancer compounded together is really kinda pants.
Admittedly, we've not seen much of the Adventurers Guide details yet, but the game feels really incredibly shallow. Oh, the Necromancer won that game, lets play it all over again. :eyeroll:
I'm nearing the end of my Star Wars: Imperial Assault campaign now and it's just getting me more and more wary of Dungeon Saga. - In Imperial Assault, not only do each Rebel character have their own custom experience leveling list with unique special abilities, they all have a personal 'sidequest' that they can do some point during the campaign. There's not 1, but 3 tiers of item shops, with 12 different items you can potentially buy each tier.
The Imperial player seems more involved in the out of mission aspects of the game too, he actually has his choice of one of 3 Experience decks, so he can level up alongside the Rebels. He even has a special equivalent of the item shop too, that has HUGE amount of replayable variation.
Throw in a properly branching campaign too, with random side missions, that you won't be able to play through all of in the same campaign, Dungeon Saga just feels like it has no real depth at all.
But then, maybe the Adventurers Guide is going to be THE draw to the game and there's proper real effort gone in to it. If the Guide is going to be a proper resource for the games, then yeah, I'll feel good about it.
But then, I remember the whole what? 2.5 pages of effort than went in to doing 'multitable games' of Deadzone and feel somewhat cynical.
More than anything I am hoping for a quick and fun, old school feeling (by which I mean difficult but gratifying) dungeon crawler.
I think to me, the original game felt a lot more like a sort of Dwarf Hulk rather than a true crawler, so I hope that is addressed.
I want something I can bust out in a 40 minute lunch break and get through, but that feels right. I hope they can manage it. I don't mind if it's simple.
I will be happy (hopefully!) with the minis, tiles, dungeon furniture and so on even if the game isn't that great anyhow though, since I love that stuff.
I think the Adventure Book might be what elevates this game. Just as KoW gives more value to models I own from other games since I can use them there, this game giving options for damn near everything should really flesh it out.
At the very least it'll come with a boat-load of nice terrain bits, and models to be used in Frostgrave. ;-)
To be honest I'm proprobably going to get it for the minis/tiles rather than rules. I've become somewhat enamoured with the way the D&D boardgames play, so most fantasy stuff I have is getting adapted to that. The minis do look nice, though, and the undead focus is nice as that's an area my collection is lacking in.
But then, I remember the whole what? 2.5 pages of effort than went in to doing 'multitable games' of Deadzone and feel somewhat cynical.
Maybe I'm just grumpy today...
This is what I'm worried about. Jake puts zero effort into something if he does not want to do. He is a good rules writer but doesn't seem to polish his rules off as if he loses intrest towards the end. I feel he would be better of paired with someone or part off a team, I wouldn't let him near actual army/force rules etc
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I think it's not entirely Jakes fault as Mantic seems to keep jumping him onto new projects before the last one is fully finished
and polishing one game while designing another is never a recipe for success
You're probably right I just feel his rules are lacking......something.
If DS falls some way away from Descent, then for me that might be a good thing. Have played that game a lot and it seems to bring out the 'beard' in players that aren't usually like it. A lot of convolution in the rules, loop holes and the like, I seem to spend more time arguing when playing than any other board game I can think of. Which makes it stand out, as usually dungeon-delving games in the past (the likes of Heroquest, Warhammer Quest etc.) are just such damned fun.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I think it's not entirely Jakes fault as Mantic seems to keep jumping him onto new projects before the last one is fully finished
and polishing one game while designing another is never a recipe for success
You're probably right I just feel his rules are lacking......something.
Dreadball is an absolutely cracking game. Tremendous fun, easy to pick up but with a surprising amount of depth.
Pacific wrote: If DS falls some way away from Descent, then for me that might be a good thing. Have played that game a lot and it seems to bring out the 'beard' in players that aren't usually like it. A lot of convolution in the rules, loop holes and the like, I seem to spend more time arguing when playing than any other board game I can think of. Which makes it stand out, as usually dungeon-delving games in the past (the likes of Heroquest, Warhammer Quest etc.) are just such damned fun.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I think it's not entirely Jakes fault as Mantic seems to keep jumping him onto new projects before the last one is fully finished
and polishing one game while designing another is never a recipe for success
You're probably right I just feel his rules are lacking......something.
Dreadball is an absolutely cracking game. Tremendous fun, easy to pick up but with a surprising amount of depth.
No doubt about it, its a great game. As long as you take away teams like asterians and rebels or nerf them a bit but not down to judwan levels, any judwan players out there? No didn't think so! Oh and forge father strikers need looking at as well. Just please keep JT away from writing the rules for teams/armies/forces etc....
timetowaste85 wrote: Weren't Judwan broken not too long ago? Like OP from shoving people onto the ball? Did they turn around so badly that they're unplayable?
yup completely unplayable now! They lost 1 in speed and gained nothing so now they have a very hard time dodging. Because they only have 6 players (as opposed to the average of 8) abd can only dodge and not slam back they get knocked out faster then a goblin in a middle of a dwarf beer frenzy! Thing with DB is it's a game that heavily caters for fast teams like asterians and the like, and teams like Forge Fathers are a real struggle to play with to the point of giving up on them! I've actually done pretty good with them as I've played them a lot but they're not even a challenge to play with just so infuriating bad for the type of game DB is.
Undoubtedly something needed to be done about Judwan though.. I'd never managed to beat them in a game, even against inexperienced players, and didn't they get something like the first 3-4 places in the tournament that was held at the Mantic open day? I remember, somewhat hilariously, a couple of people taking to the forums to argue that this was in fact just down to the hardcore skillz of the people playing the team.
Although I have yet to play against them with the rule change, 4+ speed is still pretty solid. And don't get me started about the Forge Fathers, for me these are almost to Dreadball as Goblins are to Bloodbowl, I seem to have a very hard time winning any games with them.
I will say this as a hardcore Dwarf player in DB. They are not nearly as bad as people say IF IF IF you play in a proper campaign. They genuinely are a team that comes into its own picking up a couple skills, and then they work beautifully. :-)
New picture of the retail box contents, taken to put on the retail box
Also the inside of the box - no vacuum insert, but some carboard dividers to stop the worst vertical compaction
This is final proof stuff. Also, the retail exclusive of legendary Mortibris is going to be on the Mantic points store, which seems fair to me. More pictures, of minis (painted masters) as well, on the latest KS update.
Those tiles seem awfully thin. Hopefully it's just the photo as I won't be happy if it's not thicker then the old DKH tiles. I'm hoping they will be as thick as the one in imperial assault.
It's possible they're just thin printing proofs used for the photo, the "rulebooks" up the back are certainly just the printed front covers that Ronnie was showing off at the Open Day
heartserenade wrote: Is there a list of what's included inside the retail boxes? Would they release supplementary boxes as well?
The retail contents are in the latest update, and not sure how they intend to package the expansions we funded
Spoiler:
Game Contents:
We've had the final contents shot for the back of the Dungeon Saga: The Dwarf King's Quest core game box taken.
Here's what you'll be getting:
So, what is all of that stuff?
All of the rules to play Dungeon Saga:
- 8-Page Step-by-step Quick Start guide
- 24-Page Dungeon Saga Rulebook
- 32-Page Dungeon Saga Quest Book
26 Battle-ready Coloured Plastic Miniatures – no assembly required!
- 4 Mighty Heroes
Orlaf the Barbarian
Rordin the Dwarf Fighter
Madriga the Elven Ranger
Danor the Human Wizard
- 4 Terrifying Bosses
Mortibris the Necromancer
Elshara the Elven Banshee
Grund the Undead Dwarf King
Hoggar the Undead Zombie Troll Shaman
- 18 Horrifying Undead
4 Skeleton Warriors in two different poses
4 Zombies in two different poses
2 Skeleton Archers
2 Basilean Armoured Zombies
2 Ghosts
2 Dwarf Revenants
2 Zombie Trolls
A fully interactive 3D Dungeon:
- 33 double-sided Dungeon Room and Corridor Tiles made of thick card.
- 50 clear plastic clips to hold your dungeon together
- 10 plastic Dungeon Doors:
6 Small Doors
2 Small Portcullises
2 Double Doors
- 22 pieces of plastic Dungeon furniture, including:
4 Treasure Chests with Lids
4 Barrels
2 Tables
1 Bookcase
1 Sorcerer's Cabinet
1 Well
1 Lectern with Book
1 Throne
1 Tomb
1 Weapon Rack
Everything you need to play:
- 8 double-sided Character Cards for your heroes and villains
- 1 Overlord Panel for the Necromancer player
- 6 Bone-coloured Overlord dice
- 6 Blue-coloured Hero Dice
- “Long” and “Short” Range Rulers
- 22 Overlord Command Cards
- 9 Minor Spell Cards
- 12 Major Spell Cards
- 27 Magic Item Cards
- 8 Ability Cards
- 24 Wound Counters
- 4 Hero Counters
- 24 Piles of Bones
- 6 Weak Point Counters
- 1 Cave In Counters
- 3 Petty Magic Spell Effect Counters
- 1 Geomancy Spell Effect Counter
- 1 Sorcery Spell Effect Counter
- 4 Necromancy Spell Effect Counters
- 1 You are in my Power Counter
- 16 Experience Counters
- 1 Banshee Heart in 4 Pieces
- 15 Door Counters
All miniatures are supplied assembled and unpainted.
Just to reiterate that the solo play/full co-op rules and A.I. cards, called Invisible Overlord, are in the Adventurer’s Companion Rulebook and expansion set.
Has September 2015 as a release date, free Mortibris miniature if you pre-order before the end of July.
Think I'll pick up a copy of this and give it a go. Really like the look of the undead Dwarf models! Shame there's no way of ordering a full box of just them directly! I wonder will there be expansion boxsets of the extra stuff in the kickstarter?
Also, how do we report a change of address to Mantic for shipping pledges? I'm guessin they haven't shipped anything yet, but I ordered a ton of current stock and haven't recieved any yet.
judgedoug wrote: Does anyone know when KS backers will get the KoW2 final pdf?
Its getting final proofing right now, so I would suspect very shortly you'll be hearing about this.
Also, no existing product has shipped as Mantic is trying exceedingly hard to not take it on the chin with multiple shipments. Everything sans Campaign Book, Abyssals, and Nature, will ship... if I had to guess, end of July through August.
Polonius wrote: Also, how do we report a change of address to Mantic for shipping pledges? I'm guessin they haven't shipped anything yet, but I ordered a ton of current stock and haven't recieved any yet.
Change your address in the kickstarter settings, they should draw the info from there.
Also, no existing product has shipped as Mantic is trying exceedingly hard to not take it on the chin with multiple shipments. Everything sans Campaign Book, Abyssals, and Nature, will ship... if I had to guess, end of July through August.
A shame that's not what they promised during the campaign. They were supposed to ship all of the existing army stuff ASAP after closing the PM. It'll be 4 months before they ship any of that. (and no, I'm not waiting on anything myself).
Yup, I pledged a four-figure sum on the understanding that the vast majority would ship immediately.
Not super-important to me, but mildly annoying as I'm looking forward to playing and am a bit annoyed they went back on their word.
Annoying that they also cancelled the print versions of the "choose your own adventure" books on DS too. I had pledged for multiple copies of those for my Wife's classroom. Had to spend the credit on dice.
What Mantic says during the "please give us money" bit and what you get during the "Oh yeah, we're supposed to give you stuff" bit seem to not always correlate exactly...
Alex C wrote: Yup, I pledged a four-figure sum on the understanding that the vast majority would ship immediately.
Not super-important to me, but mildly annoying as I'm looking forward to playing and am a bit annoyed they went back on their word.
Annoying that they also cancelled the print versions of the "choose your own adventure" books on DS too. I had pledged for multiple copies of those for my Wife's classroom. Had to spend the credit on dice.
What Mantic says during the "please give us money" bit and what you get during the "Oh yeah, we're supposed to give you stuff" bit seem to not always correlate exactly...
Mostly because they are juggling 3 different kickstarters at once.
Alex C wrote: Yup, I pledged a four-figure sum on the understanding that the vast majority would ship immediately.
Not super-important to me, but mildly annoying as I'm looking forward to playing and am a bit annoyed they went back on their word.
Annoying that they also cancelled the print versions of the "choose your own adventure" books on DS too. I had pledged for multiple copies of those for my Wife's classroom. Had to spend the credit on dice.
What Mantic says during the "please give us money" bit and what you get during the "Oh yeah, we're supposed to give you stuff" bit seem to not always correlate exactly...
Yeah. I spent about $800 between out-of-pocket and some "salary" for prior work, and had planned to run around demo'ing and organizing a KoW community all summer long at two regional game stores. I ended up having to cobble together two modest demo armies to do that same job of community building...
At least I got buzz going, and can attest to the gaming being stellar and absolutely worth the wait. I don't love the details of a contract being changed after the fact, but I do know in the long run, if they deliver and support a killer game (which is a given on both counts) then I can forgive the little muck-ups.
Alex C wrote: What Mantic says during the "please give us money" bit and what you get during the "Oh yeah, we're supposed to give you stuff" bit seem to not always correlate exactly...
I know that as games designers, I have a ton of respect for them. And as people, they're great if you meet them at a con. I personally think they're great folks, and they're rules are amazing.
As a retailer, my resevoir of goodwill towards them is pretty depleted. I also pledged big for armies that I was hoping to use this spring, and they aren't even close to arriving.
I kept asking about that before the PM closed, as I was reluctant to pay for Abyssals sight unseen. Nobody had a definite answer and I couldn't find anything official in Mantic's posts. I think it was just a common assumption based on previous KS.
You'd have to wade back thru all the comments I think from them on the KS itself. But yeah, I was under the impression it would re-open again once the new plastics were actually available to see. Oh well, saved me a ton of cash.
So yeah, get cranking on the KS shipments, the new free digital rules and the alternative-manufacturer army lists Mantic, the door just opened wide enough to drive six AB Quads through ranked up like heavy cavalry
Seems like a bit of a ball drop in terms of the PM and the non-shipping in that case. They'd really have benefited by having more of an enthusiastic, thriving gameplay community right now. (Not after they get around to shipping)
time to sell them specific new minis is later when the rules have hooked them (if Mantic believe in their rules)
I agree with you there. It's a missed opportunity in terms of having X more dedicated and enthusiastic KoW players with armies built and keen to play and bring others in right now, as opposed to in 2-4 months.
To be fair to Mantic, they didn't know what GW were going to do when running the Kickstarter, so they couldn't design it to take advantage. They've reacted pretty quick with refugee army lists, though.
(but I suspect they found their Chinese factories could not do another run for them to make all the new stuff to sell to the KS backers in the right time frame, and sending out the warehoused stuff ouwld have left them with none for retail (and maybe even then not bale to fulfil all the KS orders, so better to delay the whole lot)
This situation can seriously be a golden opportunity for Mantic and ex-fantasy players both, if done properly. I do strongly desire my marks of chaos to make a switch over though. I wouldn't be happy if we just got Chaos Undivided. That would feel like a partial fix. These are the guys who helped create chaos. They should know what they're doing to keep it going.
Da Boss wrote: To be fair to Mantic, they didn't know what GW were going to do when running the Kickstarter, so they couldn't design it to take advantage. They've reacted pretty quick with refugee army lists, though.
Sure, but it's still quite different to what they said they'd do when they were asking for money in the KS. These weren't figures that needed to be sculpted, etc after all.
I'm just looking at it here, and I think re-opening the PM (which I don't think was promised) would be really bad timing. The Abyssal retail release is in what...five months, maybe less? I believe the month after the KS Abyssals are sent, anyway.
So selling a bunch more of it via KS would kill that dead. Very dead.
Da Boss wrote: To be fair to Mantic, they didn't know what GW were going to do when running the Kickstarter, so they couldn't design it to take advantage. They've reacted pretty quick with refugee army lists, though.
Lol. They are sitting basically a few blocks down from GW, are mostly made up of ex-GW employees, draw on the same pool of freelance artists, writers, etc.. They kickstarted Kings of War 2nd last winter when End Times (and thus the End of Warhammer) was announced (Spanish Rumours about the End of Warhammer were out in May 2014), specifically with some phoney explanation that the "community wanted the project to be pulled forward", even though they previously said a 2nd Edition wouldn't be done till 2016 or 2017. They also pushed back Deadzone Infestation just for that.
Like hell they knew. Maybe not all details, but they know there'd be customers to grab during/after End Times (and everyone's better off they did).
s I said last time, pushing Deadzone back has implications for Kings of War – there are already a couple of the campaign books (with army lists and rules in them) that are out of print and this is causing concern (rightly so). These have been OOP for a while. I have a number of European (and South American!) distributors all very keen on translating Kings of War into their own language. I don’t really want them to translate the old version, only to see it superseded within a few months – and I am not sure you’d be ok with the translations being the new version and you still being over a year away from print!
We are now running short of the hardback rulebook and the two-player set as well. If the Kickstarter goes after Deadzone it will not come in before the end of 2015 and I think that’s just too late.
Alessio and a team of KoW fanatics have been working for the last 3 months on updating the rules. By combining a refreshed rule set with a far more complete background and all the army lists – updated with new units and rebalanced – then putting all of it in one book and I think and we have the foundations of a fantastic 2nd edition.
Big Armies, Big Battles
I know Kickstarters have the potential to become a burden, and I am aware of this.
So did I consider just pre-releasing the 2nd Edition of KoW? Yes, I thought long and hard about it. But I think our fans have come to expect the amazing. Piles of plastics at great prices and any extra cash we generate being spent on new models to support their game, and more cool expansion books and background. If I put it up for pre-release we both lose the urgency that makes us get on and get things made and a deadline that sees it released soon.
I think it also undervalues just how much Kickstarter brings to the party. Over ½ the money we raise in any campaign now comes from people who have never backed a Mantic kickstarter before. I think there are a growing number of gamers in the world who are looking for a reasonably priced, well-made, fantasy Tabletop war game. We have that in KoW, but from the discussions I’ve had everyone who plays it thinks the rulebook needs both a freshen up, and for everything to be in one place. I think it also needs some publicity – a well-run campaign that raises its modest funding goal and goes past it, and allows us to get a new edition out in 2015 in 4 languages will do that.
That said, I am aware it is coming up to the time of year when our hobby money goes elsewhere, and while the argument for a Kickstarter is overwhelming, that doesn’t help the wallet!
We’ll have a low buy in pledge. It will get you a hard cover book, with rules, lots of background about the world and the armies and updated army lists. This would be a limited edition print. You also get the battle book – a soft cover book (it will come with just the army lists and rules) for taking with you to games nights and tournaments. If you just want the book, or to pay after Christmas just drop in a dollar and pick up what you want in the survey. Finally I would open a pledge for new players that gives them the rules pledge and an army to get going with it would also be a handy way for existing players the opportunity to start a new army, (or an Abyssal one )
The funding goal would be relatively low for just the book and we would only open the kickstarter for a couple of weeks, but we’d leave the pledge manager open well into the new year so everyone has as long as they need to get themselves sorted – and we’d use that time to keep the total going up and use the funds for tooling new miniatures if we overshoot the goal.
This means you get the new 2nd Edition Hardback Kings of War rulebook printed and into your hands mid-2015. Mantic will have 3 months focusing on this game, with the new rules, ahead of the release of Dungeon Saga too. And as always any funds we raise goes directly in to making the Kings of War universe better, through more background and new miniatures. The translated versions will be using the same rules as the English version, allowing international tournaments and cross border play from the outset. It also cleans up the printed range and puts everything in one place!
And IF you want it, and by that I mean if you run around with your arms above your head yelling ‘more, I want more’ and we sprint past the funding level we need for the book and some cool extra bits then I will use the extra funds to fill in some of the gaps in the existing armies and to tool the Abyssal army for Kings of War (which we’ve already sculpted most of). We would still keep the pledge manager open so you could add them on anytime too.
We intend to start the campaign next week and end it right at the start of December – as you can see it is a mini-kick in every sense of the word!
Let us have your ideas for what we should add to the plan below and we will try and get them made!
Point accepted about clearer communication during the campaign, I am not defending them on that. Mantic are gak for communication and often seem a bit furtive about things, like they lack confidence in their product (sometimes with good bloody reason, KOW KS1!).
They probably did know something was coming, but I doubt they knew in enough detail to plan their production and release down to a tee.
Da Boss wrote: To be fair to Mantic, they didn't know what GW were going to do when running the Kickstarter, so they couldn't design it to take advantage. They've reacted pretty quick with refugee army lists, though.
Lol. They are sitting basically a few blocks down from GW, are mostly made up of ex-GW employees, draw on the same pool of freelance artists, writers, etc.. They kickstarted Kings of War 2nd last winter when End Times (and thus the End of Warhammer) was announced (Spanish Rumours about the End of Warhammer were out in May 2014), specifically with some phoney explanation that the "community wanted the project to be pulled forward", even though they previously said a 2nd Edition wouldn't be done till 2016 or 2017. They also pushed back Deadzone Infestation just for that.
Like hell they knew. Maybe not all details, but they know there'd be customers to grab during/after End Times (and everyone's better off they did).
s I said last time, pushing Deadzone back has implications for Kings of War – there are already a couple of the campaign books (with army lists and rules in them) that are out of print and this is causing concern (rightly so). These have been OOP for a while. I have a number of European (and South American!) distributors all very keen on translating Kings of War into their own language. I don’t really want them to translate the old version, only to see it superseded within a few months – and I am not sure you’d be ok with the translations being the new version and you still being over a year away from print!
We are now running short of the hardback rulebook and the two-player set as well. If the Kickstarter goes after Deadzone it will not come in before the end of 2015 and I think that’s just too late.
Alessio and a team of KoW fanatics have been working for the last 3 months on updating the rules. By combining a refreshed rule set with a far more complete background and all the army lists – updated with new units and rebalanced – then putting all of it in one book and I think and we have the foundations of a fantastic 2nd edition.
Big Armies, Big Battles
I know Kickstarters have the potential to become a burden, and I am aware of this.
So did I consider just pre-releasing the 2nd Edition of KoW? Yes, I thought long and hard about it. But I think our fans have come to expect the amazing. Piles of plastics at great prices and any extra cash we generate being spent on new models to support their game, and more cool expansion books and background. If I put it up for pre-release we both lose the urgency that makes us get on and get things made and a deadline that sees it released soon.
I think it also undervalues just how much Kickstarter brings to the party. Over ½ the money we raise in any campaign now comes from people who have never backed a Mantic kickstarter before. I think there are a growing number of gamers in the world who are looking for a reasonably priced, well-made, fantasy Tabletop war game. We have that in KoW, but from the discussions I’ve had everyone who plays it thinks the rulebook needs both a freshen up, and for everything to be in one place. I think it also needs some publicity – a well-run campaign that raises its modest funding goal and goes past it, and allows us to get a new edition out in 2015 in 4 languages will do that.
That said, I am aware it is coming up to the time of year when our hobby money goes elsewhere, and while the argument for a Kickstarter is overwhelming, that doesn’t help the wallet!
We’ll have a low buy in pledge. It will get you a hard cover book, with rules, lots of background about the world and the armies and updated army lists. This would be a limited edition print. You also get the battle book – a soft cover book (it will come with just the army lists and rules) for taking with you to games nights and tournaments. If you just want the book, or to pay after Christmas just drop in a dollar and pick up what you want in the survey. Finally I would open a pledge for new players that gives them the rules pledge and an army to get going with it would also be a handy way for existing players the opportunity to start a new army, (or an Abyssal one )
The funding goal would be relatively low for just the book and we would only open the kickstarter for a couple of weeks, but we’d leave the pledge manager open well into the new year so everyone has as long as they need to get themselves sorted – and we’d use that time to keep the total going up and use the funds for tooling new miniatures if we overshoot the goal.
This means you get the new 2nd Edition Hardback Kings of War rulebook printed and into your hands mid-2015. Mantic will have 3 months focusing on this game, with the new rules, ahead of the release of Dungeon Saga too. And as always any funds we raise goes directly in to making the Kings of War universe better, through more background and new miniatures. The translated versions will be using the same rules as the English version, allowing international tournaments and cross border play from the outset. It also cleans up the printed range and puts everything in one place!
And IF you want it, and by that I mean if you run around with your arms above your head yelling ‘more, I want more’ and we sprint past the funding level we need for the book and some cool extra bits then I will use the extra funds to fill in some of the gaps in the existing armies and to tool the Abyssal army for Kings of War (which we’ve already sculpted most of). We would still keep the pledge manager open so you could add them on anytime too.
We intend to start the campaign next week and end it right at the start of December – as you can see it is a mini-kick in every sense of the word!
Let us have your ideas for what we should add to the plan below and we will try and get them made!
End times wasn't the sole reason for doing 2nd ed. I don't know how much of an influence it was, but both the RC and Alessio approached Mantic separately asking to do a full 2nd edition because the 1st was starting to show some cracks. Event attendance last year was down considerably and one of the main reasons people were quoting was balance, or a lack thereof. In the end we could either get dragged into an arms race with codex creep, introducing hard counters to the overpowered units etc, but that's definitely not a road we wanted to go down. We had been working on 2nd ed for several months before it was publicly announced and End Times had barely kicked off.
Obviously Ronnie could well have been privy to some inside info about end times but it's possible that it may have been too early even for AoS to be a concept, let alone something that he would have been aware of. I know that he knew the Lizardmen getting squatted rumour was junk, but I really don't think End Times played as big a role in the decision to do 2nd ed as you think - it's just the timing has worked out quite well for Mantic.
Twilight Kin are going to be redesigned/reworked presumably to not just be not-Dark-Elves-honest-guv.
I think they get a get-you-by list in with the not-WHF stuff, but with a big disclaimer that using it is at your own risk and not a commitment to the future unit selection.
Not to mention that they will get the printed copies back end of July for a beginning of August start to shipping wasn't this a July shipping kickstarter? Did we slip because of the rules delays and points jiggering?
they really should follow GW lead and just forget points and balancing, too much trouble to get right
Theophony wrote: Not to mention that they will get the printed copies back end of July for a beginning of August start to shipping wasn't this a July shipping kickstarter? Did we slip because of the rules delays and points jiggering?
they really should follow GW lead and just forget points and balancing, too much trouble to get right
The *slight* delay wasn't because of the rules. Don't get me wrong, the Rules Committee were glad to get the extra beta time, but that wasn't a factor in what went on. The KS should start shipping in July, but may bleed over into August.
Can I say how much I LOVE seeing this release on the 10th?
As I said on Facebook, Mantic will be releasing their own interpretation of a "free" rule set on the same day everyone gets to compare to their new shiny GW one.
Sane gamers will have the easiest head-to-head they have ever imagined. :-p
As I hope you know Mantic has been giving away the basic rule set for FREE since the game first came out, and this edition is no difference.
However, this time these are going out BEFORE the launch – because we are so confident that if you like mass battle games you’ll love these rules (and for some reason there has been a lot of next requests in the last few days).
July 10th sees the new rules go up for free download. A set will be emailed to you and you will also be entered into a draw to win one of three signed copies of the hardback rule book too – please tell your friends and get them to sign up to the newsletter.
Due to recent huge spike in interest it is looking like the first print will be gone very quickly. Please place a pre-order with your local friendly local gaming store now – or on the Mantic site.
1. Ratkin - A race originally created by the Abyssal Dwarfs (Evil)
2. The League of Rhordia - an alliance of human city states and the halfling shires (Neutral)
3. The Herd - satyrs, centaurs, minotaurs, owlbears and other beastmen. (Neutral)
The following lists are in progress, waiting for background to be approved and with working titles
4. The Shattered Clans (Humans) (Evil)
5. Empire of Dust (Mostly Skeletons) (Evil)
6. Reptilians (two different lizard-based races) (Good)
7. Name TBC - fluff still to be done (Humans) (Good)
8. SUPER SECRET
9. SUPER SECRET
As I hope you know Mantic has been giving away the basic rule set for FREE since the game first came out, and this edition is no difference.
However, this time these are going out BEFORE the launch – because we are so confident that if you like mass battle games you’ll love these rules (and for some reason there has been a lot of next requests in the last few days).
July 10th sees the new rules go up for free download. A set will be emailed to you and you will also be entered into a draw to win one of three signed copies of the hardback rule book too – please tell your friends and get them to sign up to the newsletter.
Due to recent huge spike in interest it is looking like the first print will be gone very quickly. Please place a pre-order with your local friendly local gaming store now – or on the Mantic site.
I'd like to see you guy's takes on the new V2 rules when they hit. Certainly paying a lot more attention to this now lol, and didn't realize new rules were about to be released. Very good timing!
Edit: Went ahead and preordered the rulebook set, although I found checking out on the site quite confusing - the shipping discount was all over the place, and even confirmed a different amount than PayPal charged! (by $2.50, so not a huge deal, but still). Hope the rules are fun and glad to have an alternative for my chaos dwarf army I've been getting together!
As I hope you know Mantic has been giving away the basic rule set for FREE since the game first came out, and this edition is no difference.
However, this time these are going out BEFORE the launch – because we are so confident that if you like mass battle games you’ll love these rules (and for some reason there has been a lot of next requests in the last few days).
July 10th sees the new rules go up for free download. A set will be emailed to you and you will also be entered into a draw to win one of three signed copies of the hardback rule book too – please tell your friends and get them to sign up to the newsletter.
Due to recent huge spike in interest it is looking like the first print will be gone very quickly. Please place a pre-order with your local friendly local gaming store now – or on the Mantic site.
I'd like to see you guy's takes on the new V2 rules when they hit. Certainly paying a lot more attention to this now lol, and didn't realize new rules were about to be released. Very good timing!
It's almost like they have inside information of how gw actually works..... I mean functions........ I mean operates their business..... not sure of an accurate way of describing gw anymore. I guess they all got out in time before the brainwashing took effect and they developed the right attitude.
They're all based nearby each in Nottingham aren't they.
I'd be very surprised if some of the GW guys don't still meet up with Ronnie, Jake Thornton etc. from time to time. Then you've got people who have worked from one company, or gone back from one to the other (Guy Haley etc.) Think you've probably got a pretty small community of 'games writers' who won't be corporate shills, would be very, very surprised if Mantic didn't have a pretty strong indication of what GW were planning.
I think it would be hilarious if Mantic were seriously trolling GW/Kirby. Just think of it as them "leaking" info through friends at GW that they plan on destroying their world and creating a bubbleverse. Kirby is told by his lackeys of their "5year plan" and he immediately scraps everything and tries to get it out before them . Meanwhile Ronnie and gang are sitting back with a pint laughing their butts off . Corporate espionage at its finest .
I hope they reopen the pledge manager... After the cluster feth the Basileans were there was no way I was going to pledge site unseen...
With Warhammer going the way it is, seems like KOW will have to do for mass battle ttg, The only positive about AoS I can see is that it is giving us nicely sculpted Basilean models.
primalexile wrote: I hope they reopen the pledge manager... After the cluster feth the Basileans were there was no way I was going to pledge site unseen...
With Warhammer going the way it is it looks like KOW will have to do, I am glad Age of Sigmar is finally giving us the Basilean models we need.
Agree about the cluster feth of the Basileans! But they seemed to of learnt their lessons and their HIPS since then have been fantastic (IMO) Got to see the GW angels in person today and because of them I want to do a Basilean army lol!
Yep, my Age of Sigmar, Sigmarines are definitely all becoming Elohi, etc... for Basilea. I think that is going to become as much an auto-conversion as how everyone ironically recommended Mantic undead automatically for former Vampire Counts players of WHFB.
Unfortunately, don't expect the pledge manager to reopen. Ronnie and co. are deadly serious about trying to mend relationships with local game store owners, and that might mean a serious reduction of their customary, "During KS we will give you the best deal you will EVER be able to get for these products".
There are tournament/community support kits going out, etc... and I imagine an included promise that if stores carry product, people might actually have a reason to buy them there.
Well hopefully the new version of Kings of War will give a bit more personality to the various armies. In the current edition I feel that they all lack a bit of soul. Maybe it's just because the lore isn't as established as the Old World. I'm always acutely aware that my army is just playing pieces and not an 'army' in Kings of War.
Now is the perfect time to try and start getting KOW into stores and taking over where GW left off when they killed WFB. I know I'll be pre-ordering a KOW rulebook rather than an AOS box set (not that I don't like it but just that it has models I don't need, and the rules are 4 pages and free, so I may as well save my cash.)
It's nice to know I can play either game with my current collection of models, but I think I'd rather be playing KOW for an army style game, and for a more skirmishy game I'd prolly be sticking with Warmachine.
Pretty much anything on their website was kickstarter funded. I believe manti a most recent kickstarter to ship has been their Dreadball line which just showed up to retail this week or so. The kickstarter for dungeon saga should be shipping soon (August I believe) and the KOW2 KS ships end of July to early August.
If your wondering about quality, then my opinion is they keep getting better and better. Sure there are some designs that I think are weak, but that's the same with every other miniature company out there.
Taaloc wrote: Well hopefully the new version of Kings of War will give a bit more personality to the various armies. In the current edition I feel that they all lack a bit of soul. Maybe it's just because the lore isn't as established as the Old World. I'm always acutely aware that my army is just playing pieces and not an 'army' in Kings of War.
IMHO opinion there's nothing stopping you from using Warhammer's Old World fluff while using Mantic's rules.
Theophony wrote: Pretty much anything on their website was kickstarter funded. I believe manti a most recent kickstarter to ship has been their Dreadball line which just showed up to retail this week or so. The kickstarter for dungeon saga should be shipping soon (August I believe) and the KOW2 KS ships end of July to early August.
If your wondering about quality, then my opinion is they keep getting better and better. Sure there are some designs that I think are weak, but that's the same with every other miniature company out there.
Oh I've been a very happy Mantic customer since they first appeared! Apart from there 'restic' period which I was not to happy with lol! No I've had some questions about the recent fantasy quality and I've always said there stuff has been getting better and better, just wanted some pics if the HIPS kits from the last KoWKS. I know I've seen the Salamanders and other Forces of Nature kits but can't remember where
overtyrant wrote: Is there any pictures of all the latest KoW stuff from the Las KS at all? Thanks!
Spoiler:
Forest Shamblers
Necromancer build A
Necromancer build B
Lower Abyssals
Succubi
Flame Bearers
Molochs
New Ogre standard bearer and drummer
Ogre berserker braves
Thanks for the update NTRabbit/ScarletSquig I had missed out on a few of those.
I think the new Ogres look great, but that faction is generally well done anyway. But the Salamanders have me most excited, the bulky battle lizard look is very cool.
So of the many new kits to come the Abyssals and salamanders are HIPS, are many more?
I've preordered the rules and will build my force like I do for most games - picking the models from various manufacturers for whatever looks best. But I'm all-in on the rules! Our gaming group had been waiting to see what the next GW fantasy ruleset would be like and are now very open to change!
I think the only official Mantic models I'm using so far are the abyssal golems. Does anyone know what the "Abyssal Grotesques" listed under the abyssal dwarf army list are supposed to be / look like / represent? I saw a post on the Mantic forums mentioning a dragon ogre look, but wouldn't that overlap pretty closely with the halfbreeds (bull centaurs)?
I'm also a newbie to the rules but their two different mortars look very similar rules-wise?
Finally, it seems unit attack values are not necessarily tied to universal weapon rules right, but just defined in each unit entry?
I think the plan is to have all core infantry in HIPS and monstrous sized infantry in restic (the material seems to be ok at this size). I may be wrong in this so dont quote me lol!
Somehow I missed the Ogre previews... WOW... I love those. Ogres are the one current army the wife and I don't own any of, but those images make me want to rectify that immediately.
Finally, it seems unit attack values are not necessarily tied to universal weapon rules right, but just defined in each unit entry?
Units with great weapons generally have crushing strength x (+ x to dice roll to wound), Spears have special rules against cavalry, sword and board generally have more defence and dual wield have more attacks.
overtyrant wrote: I think the plan is to have all core infantry in HIPS and monstrous sized infantry in restic (the material seems to be ok at this size). I may be wrong in this so dont quote me lol!
yep Ronnie said it at the open day, plus characters and small elite units in metal.
I believe the vampire cavalry and treemen and ogres are all metal like the large abyssals.
I'm looking forward to KOW and also AOS. I like that I'll be able to play both with pretty much the same models, but I think KOW (and old WFB) is more what I'm looking for in a fantasy army game. I spent tons of time magnetizing my bases and making cool metal movement trays and all.
I don't really know if I'll be buying anything new but I do have a $200 dungeon saga pledge coming to me, so I'll have lots of new minis from that.
to help commemorate the 4th of July we've made it extra easy to get hold of your miniatures and games with a special discount code for this weekend only. Use AMERICA15 in the checkout before midnight BST Sunday 5th July for 15% off on the Mantic Webstore (excluding Army Painter).
This probably won't be the last special offer they have over the next few weeks. The online store is really struggling today.
overtyrant wrote: Is there any pictures of all the latest KoW stuff from the Las KS at all? Thanks!
Spoiler:
Forest Shamblers
Necromancer build A
Necromancer build B
Lower Abyssals
Succubi
Flame Bearers
Molochs
New Ogre standard bearer and drummer
Ogre berserker braves
That's pretty much all so far, I believe
Those look pretty sweet. Not much of a fan of those red deamon things but the undead are nice as usual. Hopefully Mantic keep up this increase in quality.
to help commemorate the 4th of July we've made it extra easy to get hold of your miniatures and games with a special discount code for this weekend only. Use AMERICA15 in the checkout before midnight BST Sunday 5th July for 15% off on the Mantic Webstore (excluding Army Painter).
This probably won't be the last special offer they have over the next few weeks. The online store is really struggling today.
Cheers thats my copy ordered, after watching some batreps of AOS today, KOS is going to be far superior.
Hey GiraffeX... it isn't going to be, it IS. Remember, if you want to play the game today, you can. The last round of beta-rules are VERY close to the locked down version you'll be getting next week.
And after a LOT of games over the last few months, I can say that it is, without a doubt my favorite miniatures game ever... and that's coming from someone who has designed two. :-p
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Hey GiraffeX... it isn't going to be, it IS. Remember, if you want to play the game today, you can. The last round of beta-rules are VERY close to the locked down version you'll be getting next week.
And after a LOT of games over the last few months, I can say that it is, without a doubt my favorite miniatures game ever... and that's coming from someone who has designed two. :-p
Thats ok I need to paint some starting forces first so I have something to play with when the rulebook arrives.
Really looking forward to it, just deciding whether to go round bases because they look nice or thematic movement tray sized bases for entire units.
The only existing army not which will not be in the main book (as far as I know) will be the Twilight Kin. Apparently balancing them was pretty difficult, but I've read they'll feature in the first expansion.
.Mikes. wrote: The only existing army not which will not be in the main book (as far as I know) will be the Twilight Kin. Apparently balancing them was pretty difficult, but I've read they'll feature in the first expansion.
I believe the issue was making them something that simply wasn't Elves painted dark.
Triszin wrote:I might offer to sculpt some better tree men/ ents for free.
I could do a lot better, thats saying something. =(
Alex C wrote:
Triszin wrote: I might offer to sculpt some better tree men/ ents for free.
I could do a lot better, thats saying something. =(
I think they look nice, especially compared to GW's effort...
I think the mantic tree things look ok, but the real issue is that Wyrd has IMO killed it with their waldgeist sculpts, which are cheap to buy, great looking 40mm tree things:
The Wyrd trees are fantastic, but aren't "monstrous infantry" sized (I have quite a few of them and love them, but they're somewhat dainty). There are a lot of tree options out there, though, and I only really like 1 of the 3 in the Mantic unit so would likely go with an alternative.
Necros wrote: Do they put the rules for all of the armies in the main book? or will we have to wait for separate army books and/or PDFs?
Abyssals, Abyssal Dwarfs, Basileans, Dwarfs, Elves, Force of Nature, Goblins, Kingdoms of Men, Ogres, Orks, and Undead are all in the main rule book.
Ratkin, League of Rhordia, The Herd, Shattered Clans, Empires of Dust, Reptilians, Name TBD, Secret #1 and Secret #2 are coming in a supplement a few months later. These are loosely the "not-GW" armies.
Twilight Kin are going on the website as a free lone pdf while Mantic figure out where they're going to take the fluff and the minis range, and then I imagine they'll be in an expansion supplement down the track, probably along with the neutral human necromancer and good norse humans + elves + frost trolls + frost giants alliance armies Mantic have spoken about wanting to make next.
^Also, free .PDFs will be released for everything, including all the new lists, with points values.. and no rules requiring you to grow a beard while dancing on an imaginary unicorn and bellowing waaagh at the top of your voice.
I think the only official Mantic models I'm using so far are the abyssal golems. Does anyone know what the "Abyssal Grotesques" listed under the abyssal dwarf army list are supposed to be / look like / represent? I saw a post on the Mantic forums mentioning a dragon ogre look, but wouldn't that overlap pretty closely with the halfbreeds (bull centaurs)?
I'm also a newbie to the rules but their two different mortars look very similar rules-wise?
Abyssal grotesques are basically the insane hybrid creature/demon/flesh creations of the abyssal dwarves, the models used could be pretty much anything gribbly and monstrous, from chaos spawn to rat ogres or dragon ogres. It is a unit entry deliberately left open for the player to choose models or convert models for.
The mortars are similar, but have two distinct battlefield roles, also they've been toned down as part of the v2 rebalancing as the katsuchan used to be one of the most brutal war machines in the game.
.Mikes. wrote: Maybe a rules committee member could set us straight, but either way, they won't be in but an interim list will be up on the forums apparently.
^^ NTRabbit pretty much nailed it. Mantic want to redo TK from scratch so we can't create that list until we know the fluff & design direction. In the meantime, we've brought the V1 list up to V2 standards and it'll be put up for download along with all the other army lists as a fully legal list. The third planned expansion will be covering them, along with Ophidians and the norse themed list.
I am glad Mantic is going to have a closer look at Twilight Kin, but I am kind of bummed that the Death Stalker Simulacre has been dropped from the list. Is it coming back at all?
I'll be interested to see their take on a Chaos Warriors list though, as that's one group I wouldn't mind re-imagining for KoW.
Wow... I've only played KoW a couple of years ago. Few games to test it out.
Got my hands on the latest beta rules ... they are damn sweet. Easy and simple, yet I can immediately see depth and strategy.
Fenriswulf wrote: I'll be interested to see their take on a Chaos Warriors list though, as that's one group I wouldn't mind re-imagining for KoW.
Is that the "shattered clans" list that's been mentioned?
Going with Clans, rather than marks, would allow them to create four distinct themes. Blood Clan, Plague Clan, Trickster Clan, and Pleasure Clan.
The approach I suggested for a Beastman-equivalent but human faction was as totem warriors. The marks of the four Chaos gods would represent warriors of the four major totems - the Gorghon Totem would be Khorne, the Cygor Totem would be Tzeentch, and so on.
RoninXiC wrote: Wow... I've only played KoW a couple of years ago. Few games to test it out.
Got my hands on the latest beta rules ... they are damn sweet. Easy and simple, yet I can immediately see depth and strategy.
That is great to hear! I've seen very positive reviews of the ruleset from a number of places, with the only criticism being that the rules were too simple - but given that fantasy was always a little too complex for me (in that we got into hairy rules situations often), and given the other modern alternatives being vastly more simple this definitely looks like the ruleset for me! I am very much looking forward to the pdf being released
RoninXiC wrote: Wow... I've only played KoW a couple of years ago. Few games to test it out.
Got my hands on the latest beta rules ... they are damn sweet. Easy and simple, yet I can immediately see depth and strategy.
That is great to hear! I've seen very positive reviews of the ruleset from a number of places, with the only criticism being that the rules were too simple - but given that fantasy was always a little too complex for me (in that we got into hairy rules situations often), and given the other modern alternatives being vastly more simple this definitely looks like the ruleset for me! I am very much looking forward to the pdf being released
Kings of War is simple only in that it doesn't get bogged down with a lot of special rules, and has a very simplified charge system. It's still fundamentally a game of manuever and piece swapping.
And it's always easier to add "grit" to a system than to take it out. House rules can really expand the options if both players allow.
And one thing that not getting bogged down in minutia allows is for KoW to be a true mass-battles game, in that it is won and lost in the movement phase.
I've said since my very first impression of the system that its movement phase is the most exciting and meaningful of almost any miniatures game I have ever played... and that fact really helps convey the mass-battles scale.
Another thing I notice is that people criticize the rules as being too simple, only when they read them without playing the actual game. Once you actually sit down with the rules to play you realize how tactical, and strategic it is, and how the rules support that, rather that end up obstacles to it.
RiTides wrote: I'd like to see you guy's takes on the new V2 rules when they hit. Certainly paying a lot more attention to this now lol, and didn't realize new rules were about to be released. Very good timing!
I've been playing the beta pdf's and can honestly say they made a great game even better, in no small part to our own Daedleh.
Right on. I know the "story" briefly became Alessio vs. Rules Committee with Mantic in the middle like an abused child, but I think we should give a lot of love to all parties.
Alessio, for good or ill, was challenged after a night of drinking a few years back to write a better rule-set within 10-pages than all of WHFB... within a week he created the skeleton of Kings of War.
Mantic, and in particular Ronnie himself have massively believed in the game.
And folks like Daedleh helped polish it into the most meticulously balanced, lean, elegant game system I have ever played.
The end result is a game that, frankly, challenges me to become a better designer myself.
Fenriswulf wrote: I am glad Mantic is going to have a closer look at Twilight Kin, but I am kind of bummed that the Death Stalker Simulacre has been dropped from the list. Is it coming back at all?
Seconded.
I currently have a Greek Hoplite army using the Kingdoms of Men rules, with Twilight Kin allies - I use Twilight Kin Spearmen as Spartans, since they have slightly higher nerve and are vicious - which allows me to unlock the Death Stalkre Simulacre - which is my Talos (from Mierce miniatures)
Thanks for all in the input about the rules, guys - it sounds great! I've been PM'ing with Polonius (who is now in range of gaming with) about my force for Abyssal Dwarfs, and am looking forward to making this my next army project
Please tell me there is some kind of bonus for slamming my converted Fisty Glue Man mini on the table, screaming "sticka shock, sucka" and squirting on my opponent's dog in the face. I need to know this is the game for me.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Please tell me there is some kind of bonus for slamming my converted Fisty Glue Man mini on the table, screaming "sticka shock, sucka" and squirting on my opponent's dog in the face. I need to know this is the game for me.
Only after KoW 3rd Edition, "Age of Mantica" comes out. Also, if you field Ronnie the Bard, and sing your orders all game long, you auto-win.
Fresh from the mantic blog, heres Rick priestlys guest intro to the new edition of kow
“When asked to write these few introductory words I hardly expected to find myself writing the foreword to what is undoubtedly now the most popular mass-battle fantasy game on the market!”
“Many converts have found themselves won over by a mixture of solid game play, straight-forward but elegant mechanics, and an approach to development that plainly puts the player first.”
“Well done especially to its creator and designer Alessio Cavatore. I have worked together with Alessio on many gaming projects over the years, both historical and fantasy, and have always appreciated his clear and focussed approach to game design, instinct for uncluttered rules, and – most of all – boundless and unquenchable enthusiasm for games and gaming.”
That is a timely and barbed foreword. I hope its prophetic too, as I would love to see KoW really blow-up in popularity.
I see a lot of vocal Mantic haters write vitriol and act like man-babies about how gak they claim Mantic's models are... but how can you throw hate at a company SO willing to let you use any models you like, even in their official tournaments?
Kings of War is legitimately a game you can play at the highest levels having never given the company a penny... so why not give it at least a fair try?
Aesthetics are of course always a subjective, personal choice, and mechanically Mantic minis get better every time they go through a development cycle. But the rules? The rules are excellent, and free, right now.
My issues with mantic primarily comes down to misrepresenting themselves and changing their minds on 2 kickstarters I've now participated in.
Add in the fact that local stores won't carry their actual product for KoW because of their current working model (i.e. Kickstarter everything) and that they have had to inflate the prices of their models to account for them only being sellable at 20% off.
That said KoW does look like a fun ruleset and I'm going to be playing it if I can find people willing to play it. But without local store support that isn't a huge possibility in the area.
Hulksmash wrote: My issues with mantic primarily comes down to misrepresenting themselves and changing their minds on 2 kickstarters I've now participated in.
Add in the fact that local stores won't carry their actual product for KoW because of their current working model (i.e. Kickstarter everything) and that they have had to inflate the prices of their models to account for them only being sellable at 20% off.
That said KoW does look like a fun ruleset and I'm going to be playing it if I can find people willing to play it. But without local store support that isn't a huge possibility in the area.
You realize your two, totally valid, complaints are the reason Mantic is at odds with itself, and trying to change, right?
Mantic has knowingly admitted that their Kickstarter model gave them a huge chance to grow, and well... kick-start games like KoW into full lines, but know that their deals, and thrice open Pledge-Managers, etc... were making them persona-non-grata at friendly game shops. Everyone knew to buy in HARD during Pledge-Managers as products would never be that cheap again.
So now Mantic has made the super difficult decision to stop re-opening the Pledge Manager, concurrent with their decision to send out Organized Play Kits, etc... to really support the retail shops, and hopefully build the community on that end, hold tournaments, etc.
Their sin was not always communicating this well, but I do "get" it. The other half of the dilemma is that their models have progressed in quality quickly, but not quickly enough to utterly shed their "Mantic: Almost" reputation, and as such a ton of people were really waiting to see models, and thus went light on the Pledge Manager, expecting it to re-open.
Essentially all their feth-ups are interwoven in a way where it would have been hard to come out making everyone happy, though as I said, better communication would have gone a long way toward being the remedy. Its why I have been pushing Ronnie forever to let me be a US Community Manager, knowing guys like Stewart are way spread thin, making communication even leaner.
Hulksmash wrote: My issues with mantic primarily comes down to misrepresenting themselves and changing their minds on 2 kickstarters I've now participated in.
Add in the fact that local stores won't carry their actual product for KoW because of their current working model (i.e. Kickstarter everything) and that they have had to inflate the prices of their models to account for them only being sellable at 20% off.
That said KoW does look like a fun ruleset and I'm going to be playing it if I can find people willing to play it. But without local store support that isn't a huge possibility in the area.
I believe Mr Renton has said something along the lines that he realises that their KS projects have hurt their standing in the FLGS community and he wishes to address this and make things right.
Personally I think I is a very fine line to walk in regards to KS and FLGS. On the one hand KS makes it possible to do projects and such that wouldn't normally be feasible or take a very long time to complete. But then on the other if your selling through KS with great discounts to draw more backers in to increase the funding goal so more unlocks can be hit so the project can be as much of a success as possible you will eventually alienate the FLGS community which will in turn hurt the future growth of the company.
Like any other organization that's lost some trust, they just need a few relatively seamless successes to get back on the horse.
Launching a good rule set and trying to get product into stores in a way that will sell would be a big first step, and I think aggressively trying to recruit Pathfinders in the US would only help.
That they contintue to be so short handed after years of kickstarter money rolling in makes me a touch worried about there ability to manage growth.
I think they need to wrap up there current outstanding KS, get WP up on KS then leave it alone for a good long time. Let things settle and grow, I don't want to see what happened to Dreadball happen to Mantics other projects.
edlowe wrote: Fresh from the mantic blog, heres Rick priestlys guest intro to the new edition of kow
“When asked to write these few introductory words I hardly expected to find myself writing the foreword to what is undoubtedly now the most popular mass-battle fantasy game on the market!”
“Many converts have found themselves won over by a mixture of solid game play, straight-forward but elegant mechanics, and an approach to development that plainly puts the player first.”
“Well done especially to its creator and designer Alessio Cavatore. I have worked together with Alessio on many gaming projects over the years, both historical and fantasy, and have always appreciated his clear and focussed approach to game design, instinct for uncluttered rules, and – most of all – boundless and unquenchable enthusiasm for games and gaming.”
I'm going to quote this while rolling to wound with my dwarf gun line in AOS because SHOTS FIRED!
There seem to be a big contingent of players using WHFB armies in KoW... What do you guys think will happen when GW slowly discontinues the old WHFB models and replace them with AoS models that will probably not take well to ranking up in neat lines, or might have a totally different aesthetic that some people may not like? Will people buy Mantic models, something else, or nothing? Personally I would love to play KoW, but only using the Warhammer world and models, since I hate most of Mantic's line and couldn't care less about their fluff. If I couldn't buy the GW models anymore, playing KoW would get very hard!
There's tons of companies making cheap square bases out there, I recommend Proxie models since base sizes don't matter in AoS, you can just use square ones instead
Compel wrote: Mind you, base sizes don't matter in KOW either, only unit footprints do.
This is, for the most part, true. Unit footprints do depend on the base size for the models, so a Horde of Orcs is larger than a horde of elves, but the individual bases don't matter if you are multi-basing.
Mymearan wrote: There seem to be a big contingent of players using WHFB armies in KoW... What do you guys think will happen when GW slowly discontinues the old WHFB models and replace them with AoS models that will probably not take well to ranking up in neat lines, or might have a totally different aesthetic that some people may not like? Will people buy Mantic models, something else, or nothing? Personally I would love to play KoW, but only using the Warhammer world and models, since I hate most of Mantic's line and couldn't care less about their fluff. If I couldn't buy the GW models anymore, playing KoW would get very hard!
I started with GW models in KoW, then used historical Greeks for an army, then some Mantic models (love the Orc models), and have now made two new armies, one using Gamezone Dark Elves and Mierce Kthones Gorgonares (as a more fantasy Thulsa Doom/Cult of Set army) and another using Red Box Games Helsvakt and Mierce Fomoraic. So, it's kind of, use whatever models you like!
Is there a vikingy faction? Would normal humans work, or are they more like WFB Empire? Was looking around the site and didn't see anything that looks like it would match. I was planning to use my Blood Rage minis to start a viking themed wfb army, rather than GW's marauders.
.
. But I'm also afraid that they will have done typical Mantic diligence and everything will sit perfectly in the box.
Mantic....Almost
.
wasn't this a July shipping kickstarter? Did we slip because of the rules delays and points jiggering?
they really should follow 
