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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
 Necros wrote:There's tons of companies making cheap square bases out there, I recommend Proxie models  since base sizes don't matter in AoS, you can just use square ones instead
I actually just started basing the winged Sigmarines which I snagged early on 50x50mm bases and they really will make a stunning unit of Elohi. Likewise I will do the Sigmarine Captain on Dracogryph as a Paladin Commander on Gryphon... and since he's a "Hero/Monster" I can steal a slightly larger base as per the KoW 2nd rules... which is good, because he is a big boy. :-p
Any suggestions for what I turn the Chaos half of the box into? I'm thinking the big bony brute might end up a Greater Obsidian Golem?
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Post by: .Mikes.
Necros wrote:Is there a vikingy faction? Would normal humans work, or are they more like WFB Empire? Was looking around the site and didn't see anything that looks like it would match. I was planning to use my Blood Rage minis to start a viking themed wfb army, rather than GW's marauders.
As mentioned, a norse themed army is coming, but not any time soon. However, the Kingdoms of Men list was designed to be generic so any current viking/norse models could be used with it. Hell, there's a guy on the foums who created a KoM army using napoleonic models, and they look awesome and are tournament legal.
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Post by: Necros
Cool, I'll check it out once the rules come out. Was just thinking worst case I could probably use the orc rules for them too
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Post by: Prestor Jon
Necros wrote:Is there a vikingy faction? Would normal humans work, or are they more like WFB Empire? Was looking around the site and didn't see anything that looks like it would match. I was planning to use my Blood Rage minis to start a viking themed wfb army, rather than GW's marauders.
Gripping Beast and Wargames Factory make nice inexpensive plastic Vikings. Red Box Games has a nice Viking range in metal an right now you could get a nice Viking warbands from the Mierce Metal Age kickstarter. Some of those would probably fit nicely with the Blood Rage minis and all would be acceptable for KoW play.
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Post by: Hulksmash
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Necros wrote:There's tons of companies making cheap square bases out there, I recommend Proxie models since base sizes don't matter in AoS, you can just use square ones instead
I actually just started basing the winged Sigmarines which I snagged early on 50x50mm bases and they really will make a stunning unit of Elohi. Likewise I will do the Sigmarine Captain on Dracogryph as a Paladin Commander on Gryphon... and since he's a "Hero/Monster" I can steal a slightly larger base as per the KoW 2nd rules... which is good, because he is a big boy. :-p
Any suggestions for what I turn the Chaos half of the box into? I'm thinking the big bony brute might end up a Greater Obsidian Golem?
I was thinking of doubling up my Sigmarites between AoS and KoW as Ogres (especially with the archers that are coming) with the allied Elohi for the flying guys.
For the Marauders I'd consider Orcs (about the right size) or what for some of the cross over lists.
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Post by: heartserenade
Prestor Jon wrote: Necros wrote:Is there a vikingy faction? Would normal humans work, or are they more like WFB Empire? Was looking around the site and didn't see anything that looks like it would match. I was planning to use my Blood Rage minis to start a viking themed wfb army, rather than GW's marauders.
Gripping Beast and Wargames Factory make nice inexpensive plastic Vikings. Red Box Games has a nice Viking range in metal an right now you could get a nice Viking warbands from the Mierce Metal Age kickstarter. Some of those would probably fit nicely with the Blood Rage minis and all would be acceptable for KoW play.
i recommend the Gripping Beast models over the Wargames factory ones since they have more realistic poses and you can build an actual shield wall. But the Wargames Factory kit can help you customize your Gripping Beast kit.
In Kingdoms of Men there are Shiedwall units. I would guess that would be your core unit for your Viking faction. Dwarven Berserkers can also be used as Allies, and no one forces you to use dwarves for models!
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Post by: AlexHolker
“Well done especially to its creator and designer Alessio Cavatore. I have worked together with Alessio on many gaming projects over the years, both historical and fantasy, and have always appreciated his clear and focussed approach to game design, instinct for uncluttered rules, and – most of all – boundless and unquenchable enthusiasm for games and gaming.”
Like hell he does.
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Post by: judgedoug
 AlexHolker wrote:“Well done especially to its creator and designer Alessio Cavatore. I have worked together with Alessio on many gaming projects over the years, both historical and fantasy, and have always appreciated his clear and focussed approach to game design, instinct for uncluttered rules, and – most of all – boundless and unquenchable enthusiasm for games and gaming.”
Like hell he does.
He absolutely does; the holy triumvirate of Alessio's brilliance in elegant and uncluttered game design currently consists of Terminator Genisys, Kings of War, and Bolt Action; with honorable mention to Lord of the Rings Strategy Battle Game.
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Post by: scarletsquig
Warhammer 6th was also excellent compared to the mess that was 5th.
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Post by: judgedoug
Tuomas Pirinen was the one who rewrote Warhammer Fantasy from the Herohammer of 4/5th edition of the 1990's and crafted Warhammer 6th for 2000. Alessio was responsible for 7th edition in 2006, which fixed a few of the minor problems from 6th, and was overall a better core system. (the 7th edition army books, on the other hand, were garbage). Warhammer 7th + 6th edition army books = the best version of Warhammer Fantasy Battles.
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Post by: NTRabbit
I've heard it said Alessio is the guy you want writing your 1st edition rules, but not your 2nd edition.
ie he's really good at creating new rule sets, but can't come back and rebalance them for gak
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Post by: Alpharius
Yeah - no one is perfect!
After all, I'm pretty sure Alessio is responsible for some of the more ridiculous Skaven abilities from a few editions back (Ratling Guns (?) and Warplock Engineers and that hideous bound spell of theirs!) that made for some of the worst games of WFB I've ever played!
Interesting to hear that he's great at 1E and not so great at 2E+!
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Post by: NTRabbit
 Alpharius wrote:Yeah - no one is perfect!
After all, I'm pretty sure Alessio is responsible for some of the more ridiculous Skaven abilities from a few editions back (Ratling Guns (?) and Warplock Engineers and that hideous bound spell of theirs!) that made for some of the worst games of WFB I've ever played!
Interesting to hear that he's great at 1E and not so great at 2E+!
His problem, allegedly, is that he is completely unable to take criticism, constructive or otherwise, and doesn't work well with others - and rebalancing a rule set and armies for a 2nd edition and new armies has to be a collaborative effort built on feedback.
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Post by: judgedoug
 NTRabbit wrote: Alpharius wrote:Yeah - no one is perfect!
After all, I'm pretty sure Alessio is responsible for some of the more ridiculous Skaven abilities from a few editions back (Ratling Guns (?) and Warplock Engineers and that hideous bound spell of theirs!) that made for some of the worst games of WFB I've ever played!
Interesting to hear that he's great at 1E and not so great at 2E+!
His problem, allegedly, is that he is completely unable to take criticism, constructive or otherwise, and doesn't work well with others - and rebalancing a rule set and armies for a 2nd edition and new armies has to be a collaborative effort built on feedback.
I've heard the difficulties of getting the KoW2e through, but he's been pretty great about Bolt Action.
Alessio left GW shortly before Warhammer 8th edition came out and has been on a roll since then. To be fair, the Skaven Army book with the SAD came out thirteen years ago... I also produced some crap thirteen years ago too!
He did just release Terminator Genisys the Miniatures Game which is a masterpiece in rules elegance.
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Post by: scarletsquig
For anyone new to KoW, a new players's guide ha been posted up on the Mantic blog:
http://manticblog.com/2015/07/07/kings-of-war-new-players-guide/
Interest in the game has exploded in the last few days, the KoW facebook groups have tripled in membership size. Mantic are definitely in the right place at the right time currently.
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Post by: Necros
Makes me think of that old Monopoly card. "Game killed in your favor, collect $200,000."
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Post by: primalexile
Let's hope they use this renewed vigor to update their model range to look decent.
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Post by: judgedoug
 primalexile wrote:Let's hope they use this renewed vigor to update their model range to look decent.
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Post by: Azazelx
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Mantic has knowingly admitted that their Kickstarter model gave them a huge chance to grow, and well... kick-start games like KoW into full lines, but know that their deals, and thrice open Pledge-Managers, etc... were making them persona-non-grata at friendly game shops. Everyone knew to buy in HARD during Pledge-Managers as products would never be that cheap again.
So now Mantic has made the super difficult decision to stop re-opening the Pledge Manager, concurrent with their decision to send out Organized Play Kits, etc... to really support the retail shops, and hopefully build the community on that end, hold tournaments, etc.
Their sin was not always communicating this well, but I do "get" it. The other half of the dilemma is that their models have progressed in quality quickly, but not quickly enough to utterly shed their "Mantic: Almost" reputation, and as such a ton of people were really waiting to see models, and thus went light on the Pledge Manager, expecting it to re-open.
This is where I sit. Though to be quite honest and blunt, I won't buy Mantic models at retail since their KS model (and way too many crap models) have devalued their product that I see them as almost worthless as individual models. After feeling burnt too many times by too many bad models ( tm) I wasn't going to take a risk on the Succubi or Salamanders, and now it turns out I would have liked some of them. I don't need any more models, though - so unless someone happens to be selling them off cheap I'll simply never buy either of them (and probably buy 2nd-hand GW instead for my fantasy fix). I might pick up the rulebooks if any of my free-shipping UK places end up stocking them.
So yeah, I'm bitter. If they had better than gak-all communication skills I'd have either bought in big during the PM or sucked it up and taken it on the chin. Then again, they still haven't shipped the stuff that really should have gone out months ago, and as we've seen with Trolls and Men at Arms, they're not above a bait-and-switch or simply changing their minds and not living up to their promises anyway.
KoW is a damn good ruleset and certainly well done to Alessio for V1, but I think the RC deserves more of the credit for V2. With AC doing the historical lists by himself, I'm a bit concerned that they'll end up a clusterfeth like the Abyssal V2 list was initially. (Before Ronnie let the RC take the reigns on the list.)
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Post by: dragqueeninspace
 Azazelx wrote:NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Mantic has knowingly admitted that their Kickstarter model gave them a huge chance to grow, and well... kick-start games like KoW into full lines, but know that their deals, and thrice open Pledge-Managers, etc... were making them persona-non-grata at friendly game shops. Everyone knew to buy in HARD during Pledge-Managers as products would never be that cheap again.
So now Mantic has made the super difficult decision to stop re-opening the Pledge Manager, concurrent with their decision to send out Organized Play Kits, etc... to really support the retail shops, and hopefully build the community on that end, hold tournaments, etc.
Their sin was not always communicating this well, but I do "get" it. The other half of the dilemma is that their models have progressed in quality quickly, but not quickly enough to utterly shed their "Mantic: Almost" reputation, and as such a ton of people were really waiting to see models, and thus went light on the Pledge Manager, expecting it to re-open.
This is where I sit. Though to be quite honest and blunt, I won't buy Mantic models at retail since their KS model (and way too many crap models) have devalued their product that I see them as almost worthless as individual models. After feeling burnt too many times by too many bad models ( tm) I wasn't going to take a risk on the Succubi or Salamanders, and now it turns out I would have liked some of them. I don't need any more models, though - so unless someone happens to be selling them off cheap I'll simply never buy either of them (and probably buy 2nd-hand GW instead for my fantasy fix). I might pick up the rulebooks if any of my free-shipping UK places end up stocking them.
So yeah, I'm bitter. If they had better than gak-all communication skills I'd have either bought in big during the PM or sucked it up and taken it on the chin. Then again, they still haven't shipped the stuff that really should have gone out months ago, and as we've seen with Trolls and Men at Arms, they're not above a bait-and-switch or simply changing their minds and not living up to their promises anyway.
KoW is a damn good ruleset and certainly well done to Alessio for V1, but I think the RC deserves more of the credit for V2. With AC doing the historical lists by himself, I'm a bit concerned that they'll end up a clusterfeth like the Abyssal V2 list was initially. (Before Ronnie let the RC take the reigns on the list.)
What should they have shipped out months ago?
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Post by: Daedleh
I think Alessio now wants us to do the points values for the historical lists.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
They originally said they would ship out existing product right after the PM closed, but never did.
Edit: Just saw in the comments that Mantic is now claiming Ronaldo the Bard isn't part of any pledge, just an add on, despite an update saying he is included in pledges of Living Legend ($50) and above.
Mantic, get your gak together, you're a great bunch of guys but I'm tired of this constant changing of your mind after you have our money...
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Post by: scarletsquig
Mantic unveils their new statue:
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Post by: RiTides
Photoshop right? I don't quite get where they're going with that though, GW's statue was kind of neat  although not what I'm after.
Looking forward to that rules PDF on Friday 
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Post by: Chute82
I saw their new statue on FB today, I like the sense of humor of this company. Every company needs a gold fantasy Sigmarine in their parking lot.
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Post by: Dawnbringer
 RiTides wrote:Photoshop right? I don't quite get where they're going with that though
I believe the word you are looking for is parody.
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Post by: monders
DKH/DS looks mint, but only 26 minis? Is that enough for a proper dungeon crawl?! I suppose they 're spawn' though?!
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Post by: Polonius
 Alex C wrote:They originally said they would ship out existing product right after the PM closed, but never did.
Yeah, I bought a lot of stuff hoping it was going to ship in the spring. Oh well, I like having a couple hundred bucks tied up in an army I'll get eventually.
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Post by: Azazelx
 Daedleh wrote:I think Alessio now wants us to do the points values for the historical lists.
Alex C wrote:They originally said they would ship out existing product right after the PM closed, but never did.
Edit: Just saw in the comments that Mantic is now claiming Ronaldo the Bard isn't part of any pledge, just an add on, despite an update saying he is included in pledges of Living Legend ($50) and above.
Mantic, get your gak together, you're a great bunch of guys but I'm tired of this constant changing of your mind after you have our money...
Oh, for feth's sake. That's typical Mantic. Thank goodness the KoW rules are free. I can cobble together a good working version of 40k myself later on.
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Post by: judgedoug
Daedleh wrote:I think Alessio now wants us to do the points values for the historical lists.
Do you know what periods you'll be covering?
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Post by: scarletsquig
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Post by: crazyfoxdemon
So I've been looking at Kings of War due to the recent AoS release, and I have a question regarding that link. They talk about Forces of Nature and Legions of the Abyss, but neither army seem to be on the Mantic Store. Does anyone have any idea when they'll be released?
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Post by: Nostromodamus
 crazyfoxdemon wrote:So I've been looking at Kings of War due to the recent AoS release, and I have a question regarding that link. They talk about Forces of Nature and Legions of the Abyss, but neither army seem to be on the Mantic Store. Does anyone have any idea when they'll be released?
They were both just funded by the recent KS. Expect them later this year and early next.
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Post by: crazyfoxdemon
Alex C wrote: crazyfoxdemon wrote:So I've been looking at Kings of War due to the recent AoS release, and I have a question regarding that link. They talk about Forces of Nature and Legions of the Abyss, but neither army seem to be on the Mantic Store. Does anyone have any idea when they'll be released?
They were both just funded by the recent KS. Expect them later this year and early next.
That would explain that. So in the mean time, can I get an opinion on a few of the available armies that I have an interest in.
How are Basilean Sisterhood armies? They remind me of Sisters of Sigmar and that intrigues me.
Also, are armies able to ally with one another? I ask because I'm interested in both Abyssal Dwarfs and the unreleased Legions of the Abyss.
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Post by: Paradigm
Any army can ally, apart from good and evil together. So good-good, good-neutral, evil-neutral and evil-evil are all valid. Hence, Abyssal Dwarves and FotA can certainly ally.
See the link at the top of the page for rundowns on each army.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
 Paradigm wrote:Any army can ally, apart from good and evil together. So good-good, good-neutral, evil-neutral and evil-evil are all valid. Hence, Abyssal Dwarves and FotA can certainly ally.
See the link at the top of the page for rundowns on each army.
In 2nd Ed. the sole other restrictions on allies are as follows...
- Allies may only make up 25% of your total army cost.
- Allies are not influenced by main-factions buffs/spells/etc... IE a banner's inspiring will not extend to allies, however they may take their own.
- Allies unlock their own hero/monster/troop slots, so no allying in a bunch of monsters unless you take the appropriate amounts of regiments/hordes
Oh, and Abyssals come out October, and Nature, November.
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Post by: Polonius
I thought I recall a statement that the allies rules would be downplayed in second. Is there anything to this?
As the armies grow more complete, allying is going to be less necessary to have balanced armies, but it's also a good way to build smaller armies.
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Post by: Pacific
So in 2nd ed. will you need a 'troop' unit to be able to include something like a canon?
Specifically, I wanted to add some canons to my orcs (perhaps a couple) from the human list. It fits the theme of the army I'm putting together quite nicely.
Does anyone know if this will still be possible?
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Post by: judgedoug
 Pacific wrote:So in 2nd ed. will you need a 'troop' unit to be able to include something like a canon?
Specifically, I wanted to add some canons to my orcs (perhaps a couple) from the human list. It fits the theme of the army I'm putting together quite nicely.
Does anyone know if this will still be possible?
Allies follow the same restrictions as a normal list.
Regiment unlocks hero or monster or warmachine.
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Post by: Polonius
But if you bring a horde, you can bring both a hero and a warmachine? Does a monster count as a hero or a warmachine?
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Monsters count as Monsters. :-p
Bringing a "regiment", the main building block of KoW, gives you access to ONE Monster/Hero/War Engine.
Bringing a "horde" allows you to bring, one of EACH, per Horde.
Likewise, one regiment lets you bring two "troops" (IE annoying MSU sized units), and Hordes give you four "troops" slots.
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Post by: MasterSlowPoke
In 40k terms, the two detachments' FOC charts are:
1 Regiment
0-2 Troop
0-1 War Machine, Hero OR Monster
---
1 Horde/Legion
0-4 Troop
0-1 War Machine
0-1 Hero
0-1 Monster
All units in each detachment belong to the same faction. You can take as many of either detachment as you want. 75% of the points of your army needs to be from the same faction. An army cannot contain both Good and Evil faction detachments.
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Post by: Dawnbringer
 MasterSlowPoke wrote:In 40k terms, the two detachments' FOC charts are:
1 Regiment
0-2 Troop
0-1 War Machine, Hero OR Monster
---
1 Horde/Legion
0-4 Troop
0-1 War Machine
0-1 Hero
0-1 Monster
All units in each detachment belong to the same faction. You can take as many of either detachment as you want. 75% of the points of your army needs to be from the same faction. An army cannot contain both Good and Evil faction detachments.
Kudos, that seems a really easy way to describe it, hopefully the book does it similar.
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Post by: RiTides
That is an excellent description, thanks MasterSlowPoke!
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Post by: .Mikes.
Sisters are units within the Basilean army, not an army in themselves. Which is not to say you can't play a whole army of sisters, just that with Mantic's current range of models and the army list as is you're stuck with IIRC one unit type infantry, one type of cavalry, chariots, plus a few heroes.
But as the usual caveat goes; so long as the unit footprint is OK there's nothing stopping you proxying Sister models or any other female warrior models, as other units from the Basilean lists. Got some heavily armoured female warriors? So long as they have the right base size they can happily be Paladins.
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Post by: Azazelx
The other thing is that in friendly games, feel free to use common sense modifications to allow the models in your collection to make it to the table in the most "fluffy" and sensible way possible. I've always used the "Twilight Kin Blade Dancers" (Not-Dark Elves Not-Witch Elves) stats for my Elven Wardancers since they're the most appropriate rules for them with no arguments or complaints.
Similarly, the Reaper Miniatures Bone Giant (if I ever finish it) will use the rules for either the Greater Obsidian Golem or even an entire regiment or horde of Lesser Obsidian Golems without any need to take allied Abyssal Dwarves etc in games with my mates. Automatically Appended Next Post:  .Mikes. wrote:
But as the usual caveat goes; so long as the unit footprint is OK there's nothing stopping you proxying Sister models or any other female warrior models, as other units from the Basilean lists. Got some heavily armoured female warriors? So long as they have the right base size they can happily be Paladins.
Mikes has it right on the money here. Use whatever female models you like that make sense for the unit profile and go to town and have fun with it!
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Post by: JoshInJapan
Azazelx wrote:The other thing is that in friendly games, feel free to use common sense modifications to allow the models in your collection to make it to the table in the most "fluffy" and sensible way possible. I've always used the "Twilight Kin Blade Dancers" (Not-Dark Elves Not-Witch Elves) stats for my Elven Wardancers since they're the most appropriate rules for them with no arguments or complaints.
That and the fact that TK have horse archers (whereas regular elves do not) make that list a better match for Wood Elves in general, in my mind.
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Post by: heartserenade
Pacific wrote:So in 2nd ed. will you need a 'troop' unit to be able to include something like a canon?
Specifically, I wanted to add some canons to my orcs (perhaps a couple) from the human list. It fits the theme of the army I'm putting together quite nicely.
Does anyone know if this will still be possible?
Well if you don't want to take humans just to get the cannons, maybe just make them as counts-as humans for the rules but you can use weedier orcs as models?
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Post by: Zywus
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Paradigm wrote:Any army can ally, apart from good and evil together. So good-good, good-neutral, evil-neutral and evil-evil are all valid. Hence, Abyssal Dwarves and FotA can certainly ally.
See the link at the top of the page for rundowns on each army.
In 2nd Ed. the sole other restrictions on allies are as follows...
- Allies may only make up 25% of your total army cost.
- Allies are not influenced by main-factions buffs/spells/etc... IE a banner's inspiring will not extend to allies, however they may take their own.
- Allies unlock their own hero/monster/troop slots, so no allying in a bunch of monsters unless you take the appropriate amounts of regiments/hordes
Oh, and Abyssals come out October, and Nature, November.
So no restrictions for allying good/evil in 2nd?
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Post by: mattjgilbert
You still cannot ally good and evil.
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Post by: sukura636
 JoshInJapan wrote: Azazelx wrote:The other thing is that in friendly games, feel free to use common sense modifications to allow the models in your collection to make it to the table in the most "fluffy" and sensible way possible. I've always used the "Twilight Kin Blade Dancers" (Not-Dark Elves Not-Witch Elves) stats for my Elven Wardancers since they're the most appropriate rules for them with no arguments or complaints.
That and the fact that TK have horse archers (whereas regular elves do not) make that list a better match for Wood Elves in general, in my mind.
They do now.
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
Thus why I said "sole, other, restrictions..." :-p
Though I will say, for casual, non-tournament play, you really won't break anything if you ally good/evil if you and friends agree. One thing I love about KoW is how it feels like a complete game, but also lets you home-brew so easily. If you really feel a unit profile from a given army fits some models you want to use, odds are good that you can use that point-cost/stat-line regardless of faction, and still produce a balanced game.
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Post by: judgedoug
 sukura636 wrote: JoshInJapan wrote: Azazelx wrote:The other thing is that in friendly games, feel free to use common sense modifications to allow the models in your collection to make it to the table in the most "fluffy" and sensible way possible. I've always used the "Twilight Kin Blade Dancers" (Not-Dark Elves Not-Witch Elves) stats for my Elven Wardancers since they're the most appropriate rules for them with no arguments or complaints.
That and the fact that TK have horse archers (whereas regular elves do not) make that list a better match for Wood Elves in general, in my mind.
They do now.
yup and the Sylvan Kin work well as wardancers too.
Aw hell the whole ruleset is just fabu.
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Post by: scarletsquig
Some awesome new artwork for the forces of nature:
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
I love that painting.
However, I believe only Stephen Colbert can summon that many bald eagles.
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Post by: Hulksmash
 BobtheInquisitor wrote:I love that painting.
However, I believe only Stephen Colbert can summon that many bald eagles.
Brilliant. Exalted.
Also that is some neat art.
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Post by: Bolognesus
BobtheInquisitor wrote:I love that painting.
However, I believe only Stephen Colbert can summon that many bald eagles.
Yup, have an exalt for that.
Mantic's art quality seems to be improving with leaps and bounds.
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Post by: .Mikes.
I'm loving each peice of artwork that has come out for 2nd ed. I've counted trhee I'd love to have on my walls already.
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Post by: greenskin lynn
i like it, but it seems like the salamanders are slowly morphing into the krogan from mass effect
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Post by: judgedoug
TODAY!! where's my pdf?!
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Post by: MasterSlowPoke
Mantic usually releases stuff like this around 2-4 EST.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
All your rules are belong to us.
The Auld Grump - yeah... I already checked, too....
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Post by: TinHat
Just been on eBay to see what bargains there in KoW and you know Kings of War is growing in popularity because the auction prices are getting much higher than they used to.
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Post by: Polonius
Well, I imagine there might be some WFB armies for sell at a good price though!
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Well look what showed up in my inbox...
Cavalry looks nice.
That greater obsidian golem though? The smaller one on the left is about 55mm tall, on a 50mm base. That greater one, if that thing is still in metal, is going to be HEAVY.
I honestly wonder if they'll end up switching materials on it.
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Post by: RoninXiC
Cav is sweeeeet.
Want my PDF now!
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Post by: kodos
link is one post above the pictures
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Post by: timetowaste85
They said rules are up. Should be in your inbox. Mine are.
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Post by: Thraxas Of Turai
The cavalry does look good, I just wish they had sculpted some different horses from the Basilean/Elven ones.
And the GOG is going to be metal? That is a potential murder weapon there.
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Post by: GiraffeX
Is that the Vampire Cavalry?
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Yeah, that's the vampire cav.
That Golem is nuts if it's metal. That's at least a chariot sized base too, and the thing still hangs over it, and looks double the size of the current one.
Wish I'd ordered one for 15 when I had the chance, especially since I was under the impression we'd get a second chance in the pledge manager, but we know how that turned out.
At least I've got the elemental version coming with my nature army.
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Post by: overtyrant
Just had a quick read through the new rules, I'll have to get a few games in first to get to grips with the new edition but I like the changes thus far especially how you build your army. Don't like the change to Viscous and Elite only a reroll of a one. I'm guessing the magic items will be added to the BRB physical copy. Also I didn't notice a wing terror/dragon option for the vampire lord, is this correct?
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Post by: judgedoug
I thought the GOG was Mars Attacks/Dungeon Saga plastic? Automatically Appended Next Post: Woops page 4 makes reference to Terrain on page 59 but the short PDF it's actually on page 11 
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Post by: Theophony
My poor Orcs lost their friendly Giants  .....  rage-quits, goes back to GW....finds the price tag on their giant, then finds out they don't exist anymore and neither does the warhammer world , returns to mantica and house rules the Giants in . Got to love balanced rules.
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Post by: NTRabbit
Mother of all free swings gifted to them by GW and they still found a way to feth it up, with the complete book not ready, and the free army lists reduced to free sample army lists, please buy the book. A month of talking the game up to whfb refugees down the drain.
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Post by: Tyr13
Almost Mantic, almost.
It wouldve been enough to just include the full lists and a small sample (5-7) of magic items... as it is, youre not really going to get the full experience. I mean, I cant even see a list that includes any monsters... such a shame. :/
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Post by: judgedoug
Error on the Foot Guard entry (incorrect Me and De for Horde)
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Post by: infinite_array
Sigh. It's just like Mantic to be sprinting to the finish line and then stumble at the very end.
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Post by: overtyrant
I'm really scratching my head why they didn't include the complete rules??? Is it just the magic items missing from the rules (as i said I've only skimmed it as I'm at work atm). Have other army got things missing? I think all the ogre stuff is there and just the flying mounts from the Vampire Lord entry.
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Post by: judgedoug
All the magic items weren't in the free V1 pdf either (nor seige rules, campaigns, etc). If you remember the free pdf for V1 was just the 32 page mini-rulebook.
The lists are quick-start lists. The webpage does read:
"Inside these documents you will find all of the core rules. To allow you to try the rules, we've also supplied large extracts from each Force List for you to sample the different units and heroes. More will follow as new armies are released."
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Post by: scarletsquig
I don't know what is up with the half-complete lists, not an RC decision there.
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Post by: Thraxas Of Turai
Wasn't the previous online rules release limited in terms of units etc? Like the mini rulebooks you used to get in mantic products with only a few unit profiles in? I may be remembering wrong as it was probably 3/4 years ago.
Errors do not surprise me, you see a lot of grammatical and spelling errors in newly published books from major publishing houses let alone Mantic who probably had 2 or 3 pairs of eyes scan the thing.
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Post by: NTRabbit
 judgedoug wrote:The lists are quick-start lists. The webpage does read:
"Inside these documents you will find all of the core rules. To allow you to try the rules, we've also supplied large extracts from each Force List for you to sample the different units and heroes. More will follow as new armies are released."
We know what they are, we're talking about what they were supposed to be, what they should have been. Excited and interested people dropping off with comments like "You can take the employee out of GW" on other places I've been talking it up.
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Post by: scarletsquig
There were full army lists posted online previously for the last edition.
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Post by: infinite_array
 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:Wasn't the previous online rules release limited in terms of units etc? Like the mini rulebooks you used to get in mantic products with only a few unit profiles in? I may be remembering wrong as it was probably 3/4 years ago.
While the V1 rules online were limited, the army lists were the full versions.
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Post by: Thraxas Of Turai
That makes this decision even more...odd.
Maybe the full rules will come after the physical release? Or a boat has been missed.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
The latest update from Mantic said
Today the free ‘give it a try’ Kings of War second edition rules have gone live on our website. You can download them here.
These core rules and sample Forces Lists are designed to let people try the rules. Please share them around!
There will be a complete rulebook as a PDF sent to you guys in the next couple of weeks. Nobody else will be able to get this full version digitally for free.
Your download will contain all of the rules, including magical artefacts and all eleven forces lists, plus art, photography, background and more.
so backers will get the full book as a pdf soon(ish),
but the general public are going to be limited to the (free) cut down sampler that's just come out
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Thraxas Of Turai wrote:That makes this decision even more...odd.
Maybe the full rules will come after the physical release? Or a boat has been missed.
Doubt it.
They want you to buy their book.
Another case of Mantic saying one thing and doing another.
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Post by: scarletsquig
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Post by: judgedoug
What's actually rather cool is Ronnie is actively replying on Facebook...
Ronnie Renton - Richard Heath I gave seen you email. I an sorry you feel misled but I don't think we could have been any clearer. These are the 'free to try' rules with all the rules from the game. The army lists have everything in the army sets plus extra bits and any obvious units that people normally have in other armies. Magic items are always eirher excluded from the give aways or a little taster is put in. I think throughout we have been saying 'Try it' with free rules and this is that. We are keeping some of new units back for the full launch next month.
Ronnie Renton - All the army lists will be complete in both the hardback and soft back books. In the coming weeks we will be showing off all the new units and featuring each army so we can keep up the focus. We have always has leave selected bits out of the free downloads otherwise the retailers refuse to stock the book. It has always been a balancing act between offering enough to give the game a try and introduce new people and not for you to have to buy the book until you know it is a purchase you want to make.
Ronnie Renton - So Richard Heath will everything be free - no. Will the rules be free - yes. Will all the armies have all their core units and a heap of colourful units in an army list to download for free. Yes. Will you have to buy the book to try it - nope. But do I want you to have reason to buy the book if you like the game - yes. I need that to be the case to be able to keep making more. I try to give as much as it is possible to give while still having bits saved for the print of paid for download edition.
Ronnie Renton - Thanks all. I will put up a FB post explaining what I have said here. Clearly the expectations were higher than we realised - but we can always add bit not take away. I feel honour bound to send the backers their complete copies first before everything is up for everyone.
Ronnie Renton - And more is coming so 5hanks for being patient.
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Post by: Thraxas Of Turai
Alex C wrote: Thraxas Of Turai wrote:That makes this decision even more...odd.
Maybe the full rules will come after the physical release? Or a boat has been missed.
Doubt it.
They want you to buy their book.
Another case of Mantic saying one thing and doing another.
To be fair I think the sales of the Fantasy miniatures are probably a small percentage of their income, so they have to make money some way. This is giving the doubters some very obvious ammunition though. Is there something up with the water in Nottingham?
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Post by: scarletsquig
At least it is only £10 for the book and all the army lists, much better than when the hardback was the only option.
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Post by: overtyrant
Actually I'm fine with how this has been done.
Do you have all the rules you need to play the game? Yes
Do you have a large selection of units to try out the game? Yes
Did you enjoy playing the game with the sample lists?
If yes then the full rulebook with army list will be available to buy soon at a very reasonable price.
If no then you can move on without it costing you a penny.
Yes I would've preferred everything to be online for free I suppose.
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Post by: Polonius
I'm not sure this is so unwise. It's annoying, but I'm guessing they included the stuff there is currently models for in the Mantic store.
I get that the argument is that Mantic will lose customers who would switch from WFB to KOW, but if Mantic gives away all the rules and the players use their old models, is that really a customer?
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Post by: AlexHolker
 Polonius wrote:I get that the argument is that Mantic will lose customers who would switch from WFB to KOW, but if Mantic gives away all the rules and the players use their old models, is that really a customer?
Mantic needs players, not just customers. They're selling a game that can only be played in local multiplayer, which means that they need sufficient density of KoW players that their paying customers can find somebody to play against to not feel like they've been sold a lemon. Even somebody who buys no Mantic rules and no Mantic models is still increasing the value of the rules and models Mantic does sell, by giving Mantic's paying customers the opportunity to actually use the stuff they buy.
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Post by: edlowe
I'm getting fed up with this bs from mantic regarding the way in which they treat their customers. The full rules were promised today to ks backers and yet again like the warpath rules we have to pay beasts of war for acess! Is this really the path they want to go down? I'm massively disappoint In them and will question backing any ks in future 
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Once again the full PDF for KS backer IS coming in a week or two according to todays update....
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Post by: Polonius
 edlowe wrote:I'm getting fed up with this bs from mantic regarding the way in which they treat their customers. The full rules were promised today to ks backers and yet again like the warpath rules we have to pay beasts of war for acess! Is this really the path they want to go down? I'm massively disappoint In them and will question backing any ks in future
the rules were up on mantic's page, with no problems for me.
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Post by: RiTides
Well it's a bummer, no doubt. I had already preordered the rulebook set (hardback, paperback, and tokens bundle) but it won't arrive until August. I hope one of you backers will be kind enough to share the "real" pdf with me given that but it does seem like a real missed opportunity.
I can see the reasoning... but unfortunately their talk / build up / propoganda was "free rules". Right now, it's all too easy for folks to point to the fact that the AoS rules are, in fact, free...
At least Ronnie admitted it, but this was their own doing:
Ronnie Renton - Thanks all. I will put up a FB post explaining what I have said here. Clearly the expectations were higher than we realised - but we can always add bit not take away. I feel honour bound to send the backers their complete copies first before everything is up for everyone.
It definitely gives the impression of a shell game / bait and switch - "You thought we said free rules? We meant, free teasers!". Like I said, I already preordered the rulebook - did so the night AoS released, in fact, but was really looking forward to this reveal they had hyped up. Definite missed opportunity to shine here!
Edit: Edlowe, are you saying the full rules are up on Beasts of War (for paying members) or something?
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Post by: DaveC
BoW have the same link for the free rules but they have the Forces of The Abyss army list for backstagers only
http://www.beastsofwar.com/fantasy/download-kings-war-2nd-edition-rules-free/
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Post by: edlowe
RiTides wrote:Well it's a bummer, no doubt. I had already preordered the rulebook set (hardback, paperback, and tokens bundle) but it won't arrive until August. I hope one of you backers will be kind enough to share the "real" pdf with me given that but it does seem like a real missed opportunity.
I can see the reasoning... but unfortunately their talk / build up / propoganda was "free rules". Right now, it's all too easy for folks to point to the fact that the AoS rules are, in fact, free...
At least Ronnie admitted it, but this was their own doing:
Ronnie Renton - Thanks all. I will put up a FB post explaining what I have said here. Clearly the expectations were higher than we realised - but we can always add bit not take away. I feel honour bound to send the backers their complete copies first before everything is up for everyone.
It definitely gives the impression of a shell game / bait and switch - "You thought we said free rules? We meant, free teasers!". Like I said, I already preordered the rulebook - did so the night AoS released, in fact, but was really looking forward to this reveal they had hyped up. Definite missed opportunity to shine here!
Edit: Edlowe, are you saying the full rules are up on Beasts of War (for paying members) or something?
Not full rules but beasts of war backers are getting the full abysal list which ks backers and general public won't get for weeks.
the ks backers were promised the full rulebook today plus full lists.
instead the most complete set of rules and lists is only available to backstage backers of beasts of war, at least for a couple of weeks.
maybe im ranting a bit too much but its damn annoying.
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Post by: dragqueeninspace
Posted on facebook.
Ronnie Renton hi, sorry if i have upset anyone. We have clearly miscommunicated about these free rules. All the rules (moving and shooting and fighting, nerve) are ALL there. There are the main untis and few elites for each army, so everyone can give the rules a go with whatever army they have - be it a new mantic army set or an existing one. These are streamlined so new people trying the game can take a few units and give the game a go. a 'try before you have to buy' idea. In time these army lists will be upgraded with cool new units that we will unveil over the next few weeks up to the actual book/game launch - and even then we'll keep a few suprises so people can be excited by the book once they get it.
I'd really like to see the online lists become complete at some point.
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Post by: edlowe
 dragqueeninspace wrote:
Posted on facebook.
Ronnie Renton hi, sorry if i have upset anyone. We have clearly miscommunicated about these free rules. All the rules (moving and shooting and fighting, nerve) are ALL there. There are the main untis and few elites for each army, so everyone can give the rules a go with whatever army they have - be it a new mantic army set or an existing one. These are streamlined so new people trying the game can take a few units and give the game a go. a 'try before you have to buy' idea. In time these army lists will be upgraded with cool new units that we will unveil over the next few weeks up to the actual book/game launch - and even then we'll keep a few suprises so people can be excited by the book once they get it.
I'd really like to see the online lists become complete at some point.
ok wish they had let backers know this was the case and not state it would be a full pdf rulebook released today 
Also I'm stil, dead against this idea of beasts of war getting the rules before backers for the abyssal army, I didn't like it when they did it for warpath and I still think it's shady now.
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Post by: Hulksmash
Well, this is a bit annoying....
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Post by: Polonius
Hey, i'm in this kickstarter for a couple hundred bucks, and I'm not getting full rules either.
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Post by: mattjgilbert
I don't like the BoW thing if the KS backers haven't seen it yet.
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Post by: edlowe
Hi Matt, can you let Ronnie know its a pretty shady thing to do to backers who have paid so much to get this made. Imho.
Do you know if it's still the plan then for ks backers to have the full pdf before the end of the month? Cheers.
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Post by: judgedoug
edlowe wrote:
Hi Matt, can you let Ronnie know its a pretty shady thing to do to backers who have paid so much to get this made. Imho.
Do you know if it's still the plan then for ks backers to have the full pdf before the end of the month? Cheers.
yeah in Kickstarter Update 45
Today the free ‘give it a try’ Kings of War second edition rules have gone live on our website. You can download them here.
These core rules and sample Forces Lists are designed to let people try the rules. Please share them around!
There will be a complete rulebook as a PDF sent to you guys in the next couple of weeks. Nobody else will be able to get this full version digitally for free.
Your download will contain all of the rules, including magical artefacts and all eleven forces lists, plus art, photography, background and more.
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Post by: Necros
I was gonna get the printed rulebook, but I was really expecting the full PDF too.. oh well :/
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Post by: judgedoug
a fairly nice post by Ronnie, grammar and spelling errors and all:
Ronnie Renton - Chris - that explains a lot. Genuinely that people expected all of it for free never crossed our minds. I can see why people wer upset about the shorter army lsits but that was part of our plan for the run in to launch and just a misunderstanding. However, I can see why you feel misled. We spent a lot of time when we first did this 5 years ago explaining that these were the rules - and they still are - they are all the rules. However they are not all the background, all the lists, all the magic items. The are 'just' the rules and some beginning to mid size force lists. I am really sorry that it appeared we were giving it all away. It has just been that way foir so long we assumed everyone knew what we meant - clearly we got that wrong. That said if you print these rules and the army lists up there you will all be able to play the game. You'll be able to get a flavour for it - and these rules would certainly see you through your first 3 or 4 games as a group before soemone might need to spring for a rulebook - which is only £10 or $20. I am genuinely sorry you have been supporting us and feel we have miseld you, that was never the intention and I apologise.
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Post by: edlowe
judgedoug wrote: edlowe wrote:
Hi Matt, can you let Ronnie know its a pretty shady thing to do to backers who have paid so much to get this made. Imho.
Do you know if it's still the plan then for ks backers to have the full pdf before the end of the month? Cheers.
yeah in Kickstarter Update 45
Today the free ‘give it a try’ Kings of War second edition rules have gone live on our website. You can download them here.
These core rules and sample Forces Lists are designed to let people try the rules. Please share them around!
There will be a complete rulebook as a PDF sent to you guys in the next couple of weeks. Nobody else will be able to get this full version digitally for free.
Your download will contain all of the rules, including magical artefacts and all eleven forces lists, plus art, photography, background and more.
yeah, I wanted to make sure there were no more 'misunderstandings' over what they saying
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Post by: judgedoug
more from Facebook
Ronnie Renton - and on your previous post - yeh clearly we got the message wrong. We assumed (i know!!!) that people knew what we meant - like the old rule set, but we should have been more clear what we meant by the free rules, and the purpose of those rules. we will make sure we are more clear next time so we don't build false expecations. thanks for bringing it up, and although we didn't get you exactly what you wanted hope there is enough there to keep you going for now.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
For some reason, I want to do a model of a dwarf bro-fisting with the greater obsidian golem....
The Auld Grump
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Post by: NewTruthNeomaxim
You know... i'm in for $800 on the KS, and even helped Mantic on... oh... three projects now. Even I feel a little blind-sided.
I told Ronnie all week, that I was running KoW events this weekend, for the GAME'S benefit... and was assured the rules would be in my hands to do so.
Well... that was "almost" the case. :-p
Amazing game, no question there, and still the best game I have played in years... but this roll-out isn't exactly seamless.
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Post by: mattjgilbert
edlowe wrote:
Hi Matt, can you let Ronnie know its a pretty shady thing to do to backers who have paid so much to get this made. Imho.
Do you know if it's still the plan then for ks backers to have the full pdf before the end of the month? Cheers.
I suspect it'll be addressed asap next week.
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Post by: RiTides
That'd be good - there was a lot of momentum here and it'd be a shame to lose it over such a fumble. When even their most diehard fans (or at least, the vast majority) were expecting the full lists to be posted, they obviously goofed up (I didn't see anyone post that the army lists would not be complete, which I think is what really gets people because they can't plan an army now!).
I understand leaving out a few things like magic items, but come on, leaving out a lot of monsters / etc from each army list is really going to make it hard for people to get going playing this game - who wants to play without the cool stuff?
Still stoked for the game but I hope they address this ASAP!
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Post by: Daedleh
I think one of the biggest issues is the number of people saying "why have you removed xxx unit". Even after the lists have been released, the communication hasn't been clear enough for people to understand that they're not complete units.
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Post by: Cosmic
As has already been addressed, it seems as though this was a slight slip-up on Mantic's behalf, and that they are genuinely sorry.
I would think that there is nothing wrong with releasing a taster set of rules to try out - the current free rules alone are enough for hours of gaming time. Certainly, this could have been made clearer initially.
I personally don't feel as if I have been misled in any way - I was originally expecting nothing, and have received something (good).
I can understand the argument with many that they would purchase the rules regardless of being freely available online or otherwise, and they do not lie - however, many would not do the same. This is obviously a sizeable investment for Mantic, and I will certainly support them with my purchase.
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Post by: .Mikes.
Mantic have been open that the rules would be similar to the free rules booklet from first ed throughout. Some people wanted the full rules and lists, and feel it's someone else's fault and not their own expectations.
For reference, this was the dwarf list from the first ed free booklet:
Three units and two warengines. The newly released free lists have 14 units, machines and heroes and the core rules allow people to play the game.
I seriously wonder how some people cope with the disappointment they must every day of their lives.
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Post by: Hulksmash
.Mikes. wrote:Mantic have been open that the rules would be similar to the free rules booklet from first ed throughout. Some people wanted the full rules and lists, and feel it's someone else's fault and not their own expectations.
For reference, this was the dwarf list from the first ed free booklet:
Three units and two warengines. The newly released free lists have 14 units, machines and heroes and the core rules allow people to play the game.
I seriously wonder how some people cope with the disappointment they must every day of their lives.
Or you could acknowledge that their people (or people who want to work for them) have been pushing " KoW's Free to Play" super hard, especially in the Age of Sigmar thread and now people who were interested are getting something different. And also acknowledge that if this was the first "communication mixup" instead of 20th (slight exaggeration) that people would be more inclined to not be annoyed.
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Post by: .Mikes.
Other people saying things is now also Mantic's fault? Okay,
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Post by: Hulksmash
.Mikes. wrote:Other people saying things is now also Mantic's fault? Ooookay,
People that are on the Rule Committee or that say things like "I spoke w/so and so from Mantic today" does make it more mantics fault. God forbid if GW had hinted at free rules and something like this had happened. But because it's not GW we're acting inappropriately pointing out an issue with repeated miscommunication. Ooookay.
This doesn't even go into Beast of War getting information before people who actively backed and supported Mantic's kickstarter for KoW.
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Post by: heartserenade
But the rest of the V1 dwarf list was complete, right? Of course people were expecting the same.
And at least they're communicating with their audience. The apology kinda removed some of my disappointment (but not all). I mean, I get that they want you to buy the rules and I'm cool with that: D&D does the same with their rules. It just felt like they weren't so upfront about that that makes people feel betrayed.
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Post by: .Mikes.
No, what I posted was the dwarf list in the free rules, the next page was elves.
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Post by: infinite_array
.Mikes. wrote:No, what I posted was the dwarf list in the free rules, the next page was elves.
No, what you posted were the free rules included in the box sets. The online V1 army list had the following units: Ironclads Ironguard Shieldbreakers Ironwatch Rangers Bulwarkers Berserk Brock Riders Berserkers Ironbelcher Cannon Flamebelcher Ironbelcher Organ Gun Dwarf King Warsmith Dwarf Army Standard Bearer Berserker Lord Herneas the Hunter Battle Driller Steel Behemoth Compare that to the new online army list which only contains: Ironclad Bulwarkers Shieldbreakers Ironwatch Crossbows/Rifles Ironbelcher Organ Gun Sharpshooters Jarrun Bombard Berserk Brock Riders King Ironbelcher Cannon Warmsith Army Standard Bearer Garrek Heavy Hand You may see why people get slightly upset when full army lists for V1 (with pared down core rules) suddenly become incomplete army lists for V2.
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Post by: .Mikes.
None of which Mantic said were incoming. What was said was free rules and lists, like the orginal free rules.
There's a subset of people who are eager to seek out any perceived slight, which usually doesn't bother me because my BS filter pretty solid, but in this case Mantic have done nothing but what they said they would.
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Post by: RiTides
 heartserenade wrote:And at least they're communicating with their audience. The apology kinda removed some of my disappointment (but not all). I mean, I get that they want you to buy the rules and I'm cool with that: D&D does the same with their rules. It just felt like they weren't so upfront about that that makes people feel betrayed.
Agreed, I'm happy that at least on facebook they acknowledged that they messed up - I can wait, honestly, just they really built up to things like it would be fully revealed today.
 infinite_array wrote:You may see why people get slightly upset when full army lists for V1 (with pared down core rules) suddenly become incomplete army lists for V2.
I personally think full army lists and pared down rules would be much better than the other way around. You could even list the army lists in such a way that would still make you want the book - perhaps not include all the special items each unit has or the like. Doing it the other way around can make it feel like you've got the steak, but no steak knife to dig into it with
Of course that makes sense in that they want people to buy the rules, it just wasn't clear they were going this route. I've already preordered the rules and a kind Dakkanaut is going to let me look at their pdf, so again no worries here!
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Post by: privateer4hire
infinite_array wrote:Sigh. It's just like Mantic to be sprinting to the finish line and then stumble at the very end.
Please don't blame them.
They're in the middle of fulfilling Kickstarter stuff
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Post by: Compel
The thing is, if mantic had the free rules, like fully free, it would feed very much the perception of, Mantic Games beating Games workshop at their own game.
Now, it actually makes Mantic look meaner and more churlish than GW by them saying "we'll give you free rules for half the units."
If GW hadn't done the whole AoS free rules thing, I wouldn't have made a peep about this.
Now? I'm not annoyed that mantic aren't giving fully free rules. I'm more feeling annoyed that it looks like Mantic have squandered another opportunity, again.
And I don't like feeling like that.
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Post by: heartserenade
I just checked and all of my units in my KoM are in the free list. Also with the Undead list I was planning on. So at least I have that going for me.
It'd be a bummer for WHFB players looking to transition since they have the more unique units which are not included in the free lists.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
.Mikes. wrote:None of which Mantic said were incoming. What was said was free rules and lists, like the orginal free rules.
There's a subset of people who are eager to seek out any perceived slight, which usually doesn't bother me because my BS filter pretty solid, but in this case Mantic have done nothing but what they said they would.
From Mantic from their Kickstarter 03.07.2015:
"Next week well have your PDF download of the complete Kings of War 2nd Edition Rulebook ready to send out."
That's misleading right there.
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Post by: overtyrant
heartserenade wrote:I just checked and all of my units in my KoM are in the free list. Also with the Undead list I was planning on. So at least I have that going for me.
It'd be a bummer for WHFB players looking to transition since they have the more unique units which are not included in the free lists.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
.Mikes. wrote:None of which Mantic said were incoming. What was said was free rules and lists, like the orginal free rules.
There's a subset of people who are eager to seek out any perceived slight, which usually doesn't bother me because my BS filter pretty solid, but in this case Mantic have done nothing but what they said they would.
From Mantic from their Kickstarter 03.07.2015:
"Next week well have your PDF download of the complete Kings of War 2nd Edition Rulebook ready to send out."
That's misleading right there.
That's for KS backers who will be getting the complete book of the pdf. There was some spelling mistakes they wanted to get ironed out first.
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Post by: heartserenade
And the KS backers still didn't get their pdfs =___=. i mean, sure they're trying to correct typos but that should've been included in their schedule BEFORE release.
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Post by: cerealkiller195
Even though me and my friend have not played whfb in quite some time I told him about kow. He was instantly intrigued that he could use any miniatures and still be tournament legal. He is now devising an army of huge Golems and will research which list fits him best lol
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Post by: Daedleh
.Mikes. wrote:None of which Mantic said were incoming. What was said was free rules and lists, like the orginal free rules.
There's a subset of people who are eager to seek out any perceived slight, which usually doesn't bother me because my BS filter pretty solid, but in this case Mantic have done nothing but what they said they would.
The V1 free rules online had complete army lists. At no point did Mantic say that the V2 rules would have trimmed down army lists like the mini rulebook. If the V2 rules we got yesterday were the equivalent of the mini rulebook and Mantic had been saying that it would be the mini rulebook then there would have been no issue. Instead everything pointed to it being the same as the V1 downloads. Even after the links were put up the fact that they were samples only wasn't clear, which led to a lot of "Why did you remove xxx unit?!?" threads. Automatically Appended Next Post: heartserenade wrote:And the KS backers still didn't get their pdfs =___=. i mean, sure they're trying to correct typos but that should've been included in their schedule BEFORE release.
We did correct a lot of typos, but we were looking for what was there - not what wasn't there. There's also one which has still snuck through - the Melee/Defence of a KoM Footguard horde.
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Post by: Pacific
I think I ended up pledging $1 on the last KS (meant to add more but just didn't get round to it - I had no idea that GW would do AoS and that I might suddenly have the opportunity of some KoW opponents!)
So, reading their email presumably that means I'll get the full PDF when it's released?
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Post by: mattjgilbert
Pacific wrote:I think I ended up pledging $1 on the last KS (meant to add more but just didn't get round to it - I had no idea that GW would do AoS and that I might suddenly have the opportunity of some KoW opponents!)
So, reading their email presumably that means I'll get the full PDF when it's released?
I'm not sure. You might have had to go in for one of the higher pledge levels, not just the $1 add-on level, to qualify. I can't remember.
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Post by: scarletsquig
To clarify the whole situation with the free army lists, this was in fact something that happened with v1.
The timeline went like this:
1. v1 hardback released, mini-rulebook released as free .pdf
2. Some months passed. (I recall personally complaining on the old mantic forums at this point!).
3. Full army lists released online (including the three new armies eventually).
Mantic waited on releasing them for free by the request of their retailers who did not want to have unsellable hard-copy books on their shelves as a result of the .pdf being free to download.
A similar thing will most likely happen with v2.
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Post by: Da Boss
Shame about the fumble, but I'm not too bothered. I'll pick up the rulebook at some stage, it's a fairly minor expense for what I'll get out of it.
Complete, free lists would have been nice, but I understand that Mantic is not in a position to continue to mug off retailers if it wants to grow the game - retailers are already unimpressed by the Kickstarter culture and being undercut by deals on the Mantic site itself. GW can afford to be a bit harder with retailers because they're such a big part of the market.
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Post by: Mutter
In the KoM-list is a nice little error for the Foot Guard, which gets worse when fileded as a horde ...
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Post by: Thunderfrog
Looking at the Lesser Abyssals, the whip things, and a few other entries, I am reminded greatly of the infernal army from Heroes of Might and Magic.
Edit.
A LOT of their armies seem to have .. drawn inspiration.. from that particular art style.
Basilians?
Infernals.
 [/img]
Forces of Nature is a Heroes III army itself..
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Post by: OgreChubbs
I don't know about you guys but I can't help but feel they are just giving us all the middle finger. And they are just making a joke of all this with those crappy models.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
I think it's more a case of classic depictions of Angels and Demons all looking similar rather than Mantic ripping off Might and Magic...
As to the models, I'm happy with them all.
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Post by: RiTides
I think it was a misunderstanding, but just a bit foolish for them not to have seen it coming. Still looking forward to the full rules release!
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Post by: Grot 6
judgedoug wrote:What's actually rather cool is Ronnie is actively replying on Facebook...
Ronnie Renton - Richard Heath I gave seen you email. I an sorry you feel misled but I don't think we could have been any clearer. These are the 'free to try' rules with all the rules from the game. The army lists have everything in the army sets plus extra bits and any obvious units that people normally have in other armies. Magic items are always eirher excluded from the give aways or a little taster is put in. I think throughout we have been saying 'Try it' with free rules and this is that. We are keeping some of new units back for the full launch next month.
Ronnie Renton - All the army lists will be complete in both the hardback and soft back books. In the coming weeks we will be showing off all the new units and featuring each army so we can keep up the focus. We have always has leave selected bits out of the free downloads otherwise the retailers refuse to stock the book. It has always been a balancing act between offering enough to give the game a try and introduce new people and not for you to have to buy the book until you know it is a purchase you want to make.
Ronnie Renton - So Richard Heath will everything be free - no. Will the rules be free - yes. Will all the armies have all their core units and a heap of colourful units in an army list to download for free. Yes. Will you have to buy the book to try it - nope. But do I want you to have reason to buy the book if you like the game - yes. I need that to be the case to be able to keep making more. I try to give as much as it is possible to give while still having bits saved for the print of paid for download edition.
Ronnie Renton - Thanks all. I will put up a FB post explaining what I have said here. Clearly the expectations were higher than we realised - but we can always add bit not take away. I feel honour bound to send the backers their complete copies first before everything is up for everyone.
Ronnie Renton - And more is coming so 5hanks for being patient.
I felt that this deserved a repost.
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Post by: Pacific
Alex C wrote:I think it's more a case of classic depictions of Angels and Demons all looking similar rather than Mantic ripping off Might and Magic...
As to the models, I'm happy with them all.
Yes these are just standard sorts of fantasy 'tropes'.
I'm actually looking forward most to the 'Nature' human forces, is there still a plan to give this more of a range of minis?
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Post by: Azazelx
Daedleh wrote: .Mikes. wrote:None of which Mantic said were incoming. What was said was free rules and lists, like the orginal free rules.
There's a subset of people who are eager to seek out any perceived slight, which usually doesn't bother me because my BS filter pretty solid, but in this case Mantic have done nothing but what they said they would.
The V1 free rules online had complete army lists. At no point did Mantic say that the V2 rules would have trimmed down army lists like the mini rulebook. If the V2 rules we got yesterday were the equivalent of the mini rulebook and Mantic had been saying that it would be the mini rulebook then there would have been no issue. Instead everything pointed to it being the same as the V1 downloads. Even after the links were put up the fact that they were samples only wasn't clear, which led to a lot of "Why did you remove xxx unit?!?" threads.
Now will Mikes attempt to tell off Daedleh (or Scarlet Squig) for expecting too much of Mantic in his typical style?
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Post by: Wonderwolf
 Thunderfrog wrote:Looking at the Lesser Abyssals, the whip things, and a few other entries, I am reminded greatly of the infernal army from Heroes of Might and Magic.
Edit.
A LOT of their armies seem to have .. drawn inspiration.. from that particular art style.
Basilians?
Don't even need to look that far outside miniature gaming itself
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Post by: AlexHolker
Thunderfrog wrote:Looking at the Lesser Abyssals, the whip things, and a few other entries, I am reminded greatly of the infernal army from Heroes of Might and Magic.
The Lesser Infernals and Succubi do remind me of Might & Magic Maniacs and Succubi. The Lesser Infernals still look pretty poor, though, and the Molochs are complete crap. I would have much preferred that the Succubi get an expansion sprue for Winged Succubi than the Lesser Infernal flamethrowers.
And it's fething stupid to put the complete rules behind two different paywalls - making it easy to argue that Mantic is being more money-grubbing than GW at the moment - instead of making it all available for free. The retailers want to sell books? Don't they want to sell the big, expensive monster kits that are unusable without an inclusive ruleset?
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Post by: NAVARRO
Oh more drama! GW gives me enough of that already.
With that said I believe they should drop the flag that the rules are free and just sell the rulebooks instead, and get on with it.
Never played but the game from what I have seen looks simple and fun and with regiments and points, not sure If I can bring the totality of my WFB armies into this but soon I need to make up my mind if I go Mantic or GW way.
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Post by: mattjgilbert
Why do you need to choose? Can't you do both?
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Post by: Relapse
Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's what I am doing. I played KoW for the first time last night and really like the system. AoS got me back into fantasy after a many years absence, but I also like how simply and cleanly KoW plays. I am going to be buying all the undead releases I've been passing on for 6 years because of both games.
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Post by: sukura636
AlexHolker wrote: Thunderfrog wrote:Looking at the Lesser Abyssals, the whip things, and a few other entries, I am reminded greatly of the infernal army from Heroes of Might and Magic.
The Lesser Infernals and Succubi do remind me of Might & Magic Maniacs and Succubi. The Lesser Infernals still look pretty poor, though, and the Molochs are complete crap. I would have much preferred that the Succubi get an expansion sprue for Winged Succubi than the Lesser Infernal flamethrowers.
And it's fething stupid to put the complete rules behind two different paywalls - making it easy to argue that Mantic is being more money-grubbing than GW at the moment - instead of making it all available for free. The retailers want to sell books? Don't they want to sell the big, expensive monster kits that are unusable without an inclusive ruleset?
The amount that you go on about HP female troops, I'm surprised they aren't called the 'AlexHolkers'.
Having seen the models, I'm happy with the Molochs - they match the concept art; what was promised. I half agree on the Lesser Abyssal's faces, although I feel that's an aesthetic choice rather than a quality one.
Which two paywalls? BoW and?
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Post by: Da Boss
I am pretty happy with the abyssals. The molochs look like the art, which is cool. The Lessers were always going to be marmite because they are so stylised. At first I didn't like them, but then I thought "heeey, they look like Diablo 2 imps!" and now I do.
The succubi are really nice though. Abyssals seem to be another hit for Mantic, similar to their Orc range. Solid stuff, if you like the style.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
I like the Abyssals, they have some of the best gak-eating grins I've ever seen on an imp.
I also like the Molochs, they remind me of Hellboy. Kinda regretting I didn't order any.
I've been browsing the Reaper catalog and I think they sell pretty much everything in the Abyssal army list that Mantic doesn't already cover with HIPS. So this will be a very simple and cheap army to collect.
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Post by: NAVARRO
I think its more about being selective with the time I have available for these things than rather the fact that I have 2 viable options.
If I go mantic I will invest on more movement trays and min max units accordingly and get me some more square bases for my other armies etc... If I go GW its 100% skirmish so rebasing things and making models more dynamic etc will be a total different project.
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Post by: judgedoug
 NAVARRO wrote:With that said I believe they should drop the flag that the rules are free and just sell the rulebooks instead, and get on with it.
This is a case where when you say "rules" you mean "army lists"? Right? I'm not trying to be a dick here, I've seen several misconceptions about this... the core rules are free and downloadable right now, it's just the army lists that are incomplete.
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Post by: RiTides
Technically, to say that the "complete" core rules are free, and only the army lists are not, you'd also have to create a separate category for magic items... so you'd be saying the mechanics rules are free and complete, but magic items and army lists are not.
My only issue here is army lists are really critical for hooking people. It's awesome that they'll be going out to Kickstarter backers sooner rather than later, and maybe Mantic will not mind folks sharing them with friends who are interested. But not being able to hook people adding up a list for their fantasy armies is a drag - especially since the pdfs make it LOOK like the entires aren't even there (rather than something like "Abyssal Golems - see rulebook for full unit entry").
I think a good compromise could be just listing the point value, but not the stats, of the units they've left out. This lets people add up an army list, but still need the book for the full listing. It's also pretty much what Army Builder functioned as for people pointing out GW armies for a long time. Could someone suggest this to Mantic, maybe it's something they could accomodate...?
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Post by: judgedoug
RiTides wrote:Technically, to say that the "complete" core rules are free, and only the army lists are not, you'd also have to create a separate category for magic items... so you'd be saying the mechanics rules are free and complete, but magic items and army lists are not.
Righto, I'm not arguing that, I think the lists should be made free as before (though it took like 3 months after the rules pdf was released for free with KoWv1 before the army lists were posted). Though magic items, siege, campaigns, blah blah, were never posted for free for v1, that was always a rulebook thing.
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Post by: RiTides
Makes sense and I think we're all on the same page, hopefully Mantic gets on it! It also makes sense that the army lists weren't fully posted until after the retail release for V1, which is why I'm hoping they'll consider going for a compromise position of releasing abbreviated entries with point values and no stats, so people at least know those units exist!
Just saw another new "Why was X unit removed" thread in the Mantic section here, so that's still clearly a problem.
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Post by: Thraxas Of Turai
Do those close to the situation, that are on the RC etc think that KOW 2.0 will be the rule set for a great deal of time to come? Or is it a case that any changes will be in the form of small errata rather than a move to a 3.0 rule book?
I assume that the extensive play testing has ruled out any major issues but I guess there is always a chance that something will pop up in the months to come.
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Post by: scarletsquig
2nd edition should stick for a very long time, it was created 3 years after 1st edition due to the community feeling that 1st was imbalanced, turnout to tournaments was down as a result and something needed to be done.
2nd will see lots of expansions, there are at least 2-3 planned that I'm aware of, all of which will be major and include multiple new army lists.
It is going to end up as a very solid set of rules which should be able to last at least 5 years without needing an update.
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Post by: judgedoug
What I personally am most disappointed about the PDF release is that the discussion is focused on the PDF release and not about "hey change X, Y, Z alters my tactics, but check this out, I think this will work, blah blah"
I wanna talk about the game itself :/
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Post by: Polonius
judgedoug wrote:What I personally am most disappointed about the PDF release is that the discussion is focused on the PDF release and not about "hey change X, Y, Z alters my tactics, but check this out, I think this will work, blah blah"
I wanna talk about the game itself :/
did the core rules change enough to alter tactics?
I too am upset about not having the 2nd edition army lists for army building purposes...
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Post by: Red Viper
Aren't the google doc lists fine to use? I believe those had all the units. I really like them since I make my army lists in google doc or excel anyway.
Also, sorry if it's been mentioned elsewhere... what is the exact release date for the Rulebook?
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Post by: judgedoug
Just got my full Kings of War 2nd edition PDF!
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Post by: timetowaste85
Full rules just went up for backers. Pdf download from wargame vault.
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Post by: DaveC
KS backers have just been sent a private message through KS with a link to the full rulebook (102 pages) - I just downloaded it it's complete and has all the full army lists.
EDIT and an update from Ronnie himself
Dear Backer,
First, let me apologize. I am really sorry that we were didn’t get you the complete rules PDF last week as we promised we would. The intention was that you’d get these before the online rules or the starter list for the Forces of the Abyss were released. We wanted to get you the rules first.
And that was the plan, but just after the rules had gone to print…
…Nick Williams, one of the members on the rules committee, noticed an omission in the print file. These are the hardest type of errors to find but once spotted we immediately updated the final copy, and checked it once more. However, the result was we spent some time updating the rulebook at the end of last week when we want to prepare your PDF copies. The good news is we worked the weekend and here they are!
So, apologies for being late, not communicating properly and thank you for your support and patience.
If you want to stop reading now and just want the rules, here’s where they are….
We have sent you the download link in a private Kickstarter message. It may take up to 24 hours for the link to come through.
This is the completed version of the rulebook, full of background, photography, art, the rules and all eleven complete army lists, including the complete Forces of the Abyss army and the new Forces of Nature army list which has not been released anywhere else. We hope you enjoy them.
Ok, if you are still reading we guess you want to hear some more…
Keeping In Touch
As a principle, we try to update once a month to give an idea of what’s going on with the project, the important messages and the latest inside info.
We are now approaching the point where we start to ship the Kings of War Kickstarter - after the quality changes we made to the book we are on target to begin shipping the week commencing 27th July. Towards the end of this month we start seeing more and more final sculpts and plastic sprues being finished - so we are going to be moving to an update at least once a week.
The next update will introduce Kings of War Kickstarter Mission Control – a project tracker so that you can join us on the last leg of the journey. It’ll break down the project by component, provide an estimation of when it’ll be completed and when it’ll ship.
We’ll also look at more of the new sculpts and figures that are coming out, including the Greater Obsidian Golem, Ogre Warlock, Berserker Braves and Orc War Drum and crew. We’ve also had photos of the first hard plastic miniatures back from the manufacturer – these models are the first test shots from the mold. There are a few improvements we still want to see, but I hope you like them.
Although we are getting ready to ship we will also keep working on a few of the other projects that came out of the kickstarter:
- Work is underway building the global campaign – currently planned for the first half of 2016 – where every battle will count to changing a part of Mantica.
- We are building a Kings of War Website – dedicated to all things KoW
- That will link to a Kings of War Rankings site – so you can log your result and become the best KoW player in the world!!! - or at least your town
- We have begun work on The Kings of War App – which will have an army selection tool so you can build you army without pen and paper!
And we are even working on a few things for after the KS – such as a crossover army book, that will allow people with existing non-mantic armies the chance to play.
Over the last few weeks we have seen a huge surge in the interest for Kings of War as it becomes the only truly mass battle unit based fantasy game on the market. Last week Rick Priestley (who designed the original Warhammer game) wrote the foreword to our rulebook. How cool is that?
Yet if it had not been for your belief and support via the KS for the game none of this would be happening. We have taken the funds you sent us and developed a fantastic new rules set (with much help from the rules committee), we have new plastic sets on the way, two new armies – and many new resin and metal kits. We have beginner rules on the site already and lots of great stories planned to bring people in to the game. It is because of your support that all this is happening – and I hope we are on the brink of seeing KoW becoming a truly global phenomenon. It deserves to be, even if it is just because of all the passion you have shown for it!
If you live in the UK we will be holding a new-format Open Day at Mantic HQ in Nottingham on the 21st November. All activities will be themed around Kings of War (or DreadBall) and there will also be a painting competition. We will have more information on this soon, but we’d love to see us if you can join us.
And if you are going to Gencon then please come by the booth 1637 or join us at Colt Grill Saturday night from 8pm, where we will be playing games and hanging out.
Thanks for reading. Please enjoy the rules and apologies once again we didn’t get you these when we should have
Best wishes
Ronnie
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Post by: RiTides
Well, that's solid of them certainly (although still think they should do something to indicate that all the units are available, just not showing the full stats, for non-backers looking through the army lists online). Very good turnaround on releasing that pdf after the kerfuffle on Friday!
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Post by: Theophony
also Rich apologized in the Kickstarter thread for the misunderstanding about the Renaldo the Bard figure. It IS a freebie as per the kickstarter update and no more issues there.
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Post by: Hulksmash
Well, they didn't re-open the pledge manager but at least the $1 I'd originally given them in anticipation got me the full pdf. Yay!
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Post by: MasterSlowPoke
Is using "treble" as a verb common in the UK? It always sounds wrong to me.
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Post by: Polonius
 Hulksmash wrote:Well, they didn't re-open the pledge manager but at least the $1 I'd originally given them in anticipation got me the full pdf. Yay!
that's downright bizarre...
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Post by: NobodyXY
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Post by: Daedleh
It's not commonly used, but it's not incorrect either...
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Post by: RiTides
Typo in the foreword by Rick Priestly, spelled a word "focussed" (unless that's how it is across the pond!).
If an author sends it to you that way are you beholden to keep it
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Post by: mattjgilbert
Still not got mine yet :(
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
There's a shot in there of all sorts of random Nature beasts- looks like an old WotC shambling mound, wolves, an owlbear, an angry bear... where did all these come from? Are any of those actual Mantic figures?
I think that book has the first painted Naiads and Salamanders too. Didn't see any greater earth elementals though.
Will dig through the rules further when I'm not stuck on the phone.
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Post by: primalexile
I am at the 1.00 pledge was waiting to see Infernals and Nature before buying into both, but I still got the full rulebook so I suppose it is 1.00 well spent. I am thinking instead of buying into Mantics armies purchasing Shieldwolf, they have their Orc bundle on sale.
40 Mountain Orc Infantry,
1 Mountain Orc Hero_A with 2-handed weapon,
1 Mountain Orc Hero_B with 2nd hand weapon,
1 Mountain Orc Shaman,
1 Mountain Orc Army Banner Bearer,
2 Mountain Orc Boar Chariots,
2 Mountain Orc Great Wolf Chariots.
I am thinking this would make a great KOW force.
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Post by: RiTides
The rulebook is beautiful and I am really glad that I purchased the physical book - will be totally worth it! Now that this is released to backers, folks can at least definitely clear up any questions newcomers had, so that is also great
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Post by: mattjgilbert
 highlord tamburlaine wrote:There's a shot in there of all sorts of random Nature beasts- looks like an old WotC shambling mound, wolves, an owlbear, an angry bear... where did all these come from? Are any of those actual Mantic figures?
I think that book has the first painted Naiads and Salamanders too. Didn't see any greater earth elementals though.
Will dig through the rules further when I'm not stuck on the phone.
Those nature beasts are probably mine from my elf army. The models are mostly from Otherworld and I used them for my Forest Shamblers (because at that point Mantic hadn't made any themselves).
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Post by: RiTides
I noticed those, too! Nice to have that answered so quickly
Overall looks stellar, I could see this being a really big seller for FLGS trying to give folks a better fantasy ruleset (and it could even be alongside AoS, since basing doesn't matter for AoS ). Well done, Mantic!
A date of July 27th to start shipping the rulebooks is awesome, too. Is there a chance we could pick it up at GenCon if we preordered it? Edit: Ah, they probably mean to start shipping Kickstarter rewards, but not the book - it seems like it would be impossible for it to be printed that quickly, right?
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Post by: Theophony
They sent it all to the printers a week or so ago with the expectation to get it shipped out this month (so they can continue the claim of shipping on time). Even though they will start shipping then and probably take weeks/months to complete.
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Post by: Tamereth
Got my PDF, eager to get a few games in.
Mantic just need to get the not Warhammer lists out in the world now to fully capitalise on the demise of the old world.
Also glad the issue with the bard has been sorted, I have plans to use him in dungeon saga.
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Post by: judgedoug
The rulebook looks fantastic. Kudos to everyone at Mantic.
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Post by: NTRabbit
 Tamereth wrote:Got my PDF, eager to get a few games in.
Mantic just need to get the not Warhammer lists out in the world now to fully capitalise on the demise of the old world.
Also glad the issue with the bard has been sorted, I have plans to use him in dungeon saga.
The rulebook is full of hooks for all the not- GW armies in the fluff, so that the book doesn't feel like a disconnected afterthought.
They also managed to work in fluff for the Northern Alliance and Ophidia, so that's all bedded in ready for the eventual expansion with those new armies too.
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Post by: Fenriswulf
Good to see the Dwarves ending up with Elementals for their army. A very cool thing indeed. And the rulebook itself is really well put together, and will look great when printed out I am sure.
Good work rules team and Mantic, you did well
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Post by: lord_blackfang
The book is really beautiful.
I played my second game tonight, was great fun and really smooth.
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Post by: Da Boss
Hmmm, I think I will purchase the book. Which kinda shows that leaving us with just teaser lists was probably, in reality, a clever move.
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Post by: Pacific
Got the free rules for a $1 pledge !
Now, in the way that I intend to buy the Witcher 3 DLC when it comes along (after that company offered other bits and pieces for free also), I intend to support Mantic.
Very nice looking rulebook.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Kinda funny that I don't get a .pdf copy of the rules as a late backer who spent over $1200, but a $1 KS pledge gets them
Oh well, soon have the physical copy...
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Post by: Tyr13
Id just ask Rich, cant hurt.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Shot him an email, we'll see!
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Post by: heartserenade
I will buy the rulebook once it's out. Sadly I didn't have any money when the kickstarter was live. I hope they put the new rulebook with their army deals and replace the old one!
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Post by: scarletsquig
Pacific wrote:Got the free rules for a $1 pledge !
Now, in the way that I intend to buy the Witcher 3 DLC when it comes along (after that company offered other bits and pieces for free also), I intend to support Mantic.
Very nice looking rulebook.
Glad you like it, good example of how even a $1 pledge on Kickstarter can often get you some good value for money. The actual pdf will probably sell for $10-$15 or so.
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Post by: Taaloc
So does every backer with a $1 pledge get the PDF or is it just that some have got it in error?
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Post by: NTRabbit
I just got an email direct from Rich @ Mantic with the code and instructions for the rules pdf. Since I already redeemed mine via the KS messaging system, I assume this was a mass mail out to catch all the late backers as well.
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Post by: edlowe
Taaloc wrote:So does every backer with a $1 pledge get the PDF or is it just that some have got it in error?
Well I backed for a $1 then got an abyssal army deal in the pm and I got the pdf last night.
It's a nicely laid out book that should serve them very well for the next few years. When Mantic get it right they do some cracking stuff.
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Post by: Donomar
RiTides wrote:The rulebook is beautiful and I am really glad that I purchased the physical book - will be totally worth it! Now that this is released to backers, folks can at least definitely clear up any questions newcomers had, so that is also great
Just wondering is there much fluff/background material in the book or is it just 100% rules?
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Post by: scarletsquig
Lots of background material in the book, including plenty of new stuff.
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Post by: Baragash
The background starts on page 6, the rules start on page 46
Plus there's approx a page of spiel before each army list as well.
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Post by: Donomar
scarletsquig wrote:Lots of background material in the book, including plenty of new stuff.
Baragash wrote:The background starts on page 6, the rules start on page 46
Plus there's approx a page of spiel before each army list as well.
Cheers guys Nice to read that. Will try to pick up a copy of this and give it a read so
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Post by: squall018
Taaloc wrote:So does every backer with a $1 pledge get the PDF or is it just that some have got it in error?
I only pledged one dollar and I got the PDF. Pretty sure everyone that pledged anything gets it.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Got my link this morning! Rich does a great job, no doubt about it.
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Post by: Graphite
RiTides wrote:Makes sense and I think we're all on the same page, hopefully Mantic gets on it! It also makes sense that the army lists weren't fully posted until after the retail release for V1, which is why I'm hoping they'll consider going for a compromise position of releasing abbreviated entries with point values and no stats, so people at least know those units exist!
Just saw another new "Why was X unit removed" thread in the Mantic section here, so that's still clearly a problem.
Absolutely. I looked at the Orc army list, thought "Is that it? How the hell do I convert my army to that?"
I then immediately went here to find out what was going on - how many of Mantic's potential customers won't?
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Post by: RiTides
I saw someone post in the Mantic section here that they had passed similar feedback on (that the downloads page at least needs to make it clear that the units shown aren't all there is for each army!). Hopefully it gets to the right ears
I'm so happy for the rulebook, and mikhaila even posted that he may is bringing in the rulebooks when they release in August and may be supporting some KoW play. Exciting that there will be a mass fantasy battle system that I could actually get a game with going forward!
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Post by: porkuslime
Aaahhh.. so.. if I piggybacked on the kickstarter with another person.. I would NOT be getting the PDF correct?
I don't know if it is ethical to ask the guy I worked with for a copy of the PDF..
Do you all think I should ask the kind folks across the pond?
666
Post by: Necros
I think it's ethical in this case.. you paid money to get in on the KS even if it was someone else's username and pledge.. so paying money for the KS = free PDF
61979
Post by: DaveC
The download says it's watermarked but I have been unable to find the watermark anywhere on the document - that's not to say it's not there somewhere. Previous downloads had your name on every page so it could be traced. You could ask the backer to send it on to you if you spent the money through them I don't see the issue
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Post by: porkuslime
Thanks to Alex C, I was able to Email Rich, and he did say that I am kinda outta luck. Only original backers and watermarked for tracking naughty people.
So.. I wait.
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Post by: TheAuldGrump
 DaveC wrote:The download says it's watermarked but I have been unable to find the watermark anywhere on the document - that's not to say it's not there somewhere. Previous downloads had your name on every page so it could be traced. You could ask the backer to send it on to you if you spent the money through them I don't see the issue
Extreme lower left on even numbered pages, transparency at or around 100%.
Name and email address, most likely - since that is what RPGNow/Wargames Vault/DriveThruGames/etc. all use.
The Auld Grump
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Post by: Taarnak
No message with PDF link for me yet...
Wonder if I should message them? Seems as though all of us $1 backers should have gotten it.
~Eric
61979
Post by: DaveC
 TheAuldGrump wrote: DaveC wrote:The download says it's watermarked but I have been unable to find the watermark anywhere on the document - that's not to say it's not there somewhere. Previous downloads had your name on every page so it could be traced. You could ask the backer to send it on to you if you spent the money through them I don't see the issue
Extreme lower left on even numbered pages, transparency at or around 100%.
Name and email address, most likely - since that is what RPGNow/Wargames Vault/DriveThruGames/etc. all use.
The Auld Grump
Ah now I see it thanks the white text is really hard to see but its there alright
14863
Post by: MasterSlowPoke
 Taarnak wrote:No message with PDF link for me yet...
Wonder if I should message them? Seems as though all of us $1 backers should have gotten it.
~Eric
You definitely should email Rich.
83277
Post by: mattjgilbert
Agreed. Rich dot Armstrong at manticgames.com
52996
Post by: Pyreguard
Does anyone know th release date for the mantic demon/infernals?
50896
Post by: heartserenade
I'm not sure but I'm excited for it as well. Might mix the succubi with Hasslefree miniatures NSFW succubi.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Last I heard it was November? I think.
I'm pretty hyped, love both the hard plastic kits. And Reaper pretty much covers the rest of the range.
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Post by: Azazelx
primalexile wrote:I am at the 1.00 pledge was waiting to see Infernals and Nature before buying into both, but I still got the full rulebook so I suppose it is 1.00 well spent. I am thinking instead of buying into Mantics armies purchasing Shieldwolf, they have their Orc bundle on sale.
40 Mountain Orc Infantry,
1 Mountain Orc Hero_A with 2-handed weapon,
1 Mountain Orc Hero_B with 2nd hand weapon,
1 Mountain Orc Shaman,
1 Mountain Orc Army Banner Bearer,
2 Mountain Orc Boar Chariots,
2 Mountain Orc Great Wolf Chariots.
I am thinking this would make a great KOW force.
In the same boat here, waiting to spend on the second PM that they never opened. All it means is that I'll be spending my monies elsewhere (bought 2 copies of AoS!) and may or may not buy the book just because I like books. Mantic can't be trusted for models based on concept art alone.
NTRabbit wrote:I just got an email direct from Rich @ Mantic with the code and instructions for the rules pdf. Since I already redeemed mine via the KS messaging system, I assume this was a mass mail out to catch all the late backers as well.
Still haven't gotten mine. Good to hear that others are getting two. Automatically Appended Next Post:  porkuslime wrote:Thanks to Alex C, I was able to Email Rich, and he did say that I am kinda outta luck. Only original backers and watermarked for tracking naughty people.
So.. I wait.
Just get it off your mate and don't release it into the wild.
57098
Post by: carlos13th
Yeah I wouldn't buy models from Mantic based on concept art alone either. They have shown us that's a losing proposition for the customer.
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Post by: judgedoug
 carlos13th wrote:Yeah I wouldn't buy models from Mantic based on concept art alone either. They have shown us that's a losing proposition for the customer.
I agree in 2012/2013 but since then everything has panned out quite well.
Deadzone figs all look as good as or better than the concept art (and the Deadzone 2 stuff looks fantastic)
The KoW 2 figs are all looking like their art, too. I'm digging the new Forest ent tree shambling monster dudes.
84429
Post by: Torkijo
Its now that i Wish i had come across KoW whilst the KS was still live.
Oh Well, hardback book set ordered -presume the PDF / ebook will be available to buy as well at sometime
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Post by: DaveC
The KoW mission control is up - http://www.manticgames.com/kickstarter/mission-control/Kings-of-War.html
The KS backers rulebook pdf got an update today
and oh dear Mantic skinny leg syndrome is back
The Abyssal Dwarf Iron caster on foot (retailer exclusive)
New Figures
We are going to start putting up the new retail army and miniature sets up for pre-order on the website.
As we continue to support the game, the community and our retailers, amongst the new releases you’ll spot a few new miniatures that we’ve created since the Kickstarter has finished, approximately one per race.
You’ll be able to pick up these figures from your local retailer, or the Mantic Games website later today.
Ronnie also wanted to go into some explanation regarding the retail releases which is below.
One thing I do want to let you all know about is ‘retailer exclusives’ – these are far less serious than they sound, but we want to let you all know what they are and more importantly why we are doing them. A lot of hobby stores see Kickstarter as a threat that takes money away from their stores. There is of course some truth in that. However, I also believe it gives us the initial money to make a better product and bigger range than we would be able to do otherwise. Dreadball has been a great example of this. Of the total quantity sold only 20% was through KS – the rest was via local hobby stores.
Mantic is committed to working with retail stores and want them to be able to sell the products well and be successful with the line. The reason we did the cool book/box idea for Dungeon Saga was partly to say thank you to the backers – and partly so it looked great in retailers stores and would sell many more copies. In the long term this benefits us all because we have more people who know the game and therefore more opponents to play against.
Going forward we will support our major releases with a few new lines made especially for the trade launch. Usually these will be metal minis and all aimed at the pocket money spend that works for retailers, such as the metal Legendary Mortibris and the Abyssal Dwarf Iron-caster on foot.
On the KS and as a backer you’ll have the plastics, lots of exclusives and made some seriously big savings. To keep our retailers with us we need to bring them along too.
So, if you have an Abyssal dwarf army we would love for you to go down to your local FLHS, pick up the hero, and talk about what a great game Kings of War is – so hopefully they will keep the line in stock and get the sales that they deserve for that – and we’ll get more players into the system. Also, if you don’t have a store you’ll be able to get all these from the Mantic Store too.
And finally, some other good news is that from next week we will be moving to a weekly update that will cover all of our Kickstarter’s in one play. It will have more info about what’s going on, sneak peeks behind the scenes and info about how close the KS is to shipping. If you have backed multiple KS with us – you’ll also only need to open 1 email – everything will be covered in 1 place. We really hope that will give you more info about the projects you’ve helped make happen and how they are developing.
Many thanks
Ronnie
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Post by: mattjgilbert
Yeah, I'm not sure why we got skinny legs again.
63020
Post by: dragqueeninspace
It emphasizes the upper body. It does look daft when overdone but when has that ever stopped a miniature being a big seller?
87618
Post by: kodos
Maybe now that there is no need for alternative Warhammer models, Mantic is looking at Warmachine?
http://privateerpress.com/files/imagecache/2up_square/pages/dire-troll-mauler.png
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
Skinny legs also make the mini smaller (better for stocking and transport) and cheaper (less metal/resin to cast)
so while it's clearly a style choice, there's also solid production and commercial reasons for it for large minis (with proper legs that golem would be at least 1/3 again as large if not more or forced into a really crouched pose)
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Post by: timetowaste85
Mantic has decided to go with the big upper body with small legs look. It's kind of "their thing". Not everyone will like it, sure, but it's the style they obviously like. Vote with your wallet. Buy em if you like em, buy other companies' models if you don't. Other companies do similar things, like Reaper's Earth Elementsl. Clearly there is a market for this kind of thing.
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Post by: Polonius
I really like that dwarf Iron Caster. That really captures the look of an evil dwarf!
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Post by: Barzam
I'm sure they did the skinny legs on purpose in order to give it an over the top, exaggerated look. It's a stylistic choice and works just fine for something that'a a non living construct.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Oh, Mantic! That golem is a riot and a half. They've finally managed to make a model so bad that Fisty Glue Man looks passable.
There's not even an almost about that lump. That is a straight-up terrible mini that they will probably charge actual money for.
 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:Skinny legs also make the mini smaller (better for stocking and transport) and cheaper (less metal/resin to cast)
so while it's clearly a style choice, there's also solid production and commercial reasons for it for large minis (with proper legs that golem would be at least 1/3 again as large if not more or forced into a really crouched pose)
Then why is the head so comically large? Emphasize the torso? Reduce the amount of space or material? Add a semblance of style to that mini? Nope.
It's a failure no matter how you spin it. Automatically Appended Next Post: Polonius wrote:I really like that dwarf Iron Caster. That really captures the look of an evil dwarf!
That is one great mini. It's almost as if Manic only has half the number of Good Mini Points than of minis they want to release, and have decided to stop splitting the difference.
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Post by: Zatsuku
I absolutely love the look of the golem so.... Different strokes?
83501
Post by: Nostromodamus
I love the Golem too.
Different strokes indeed.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Zatsuku wrote:I absolutely love the look of the golem so.... Different strokes?
Yeah. I'll admit I posted my first impressions while my ire was up. I can see some style to it now that people might enjoy. I personally think it looks beyond cartoony, and not a good kind of cartoony. But f you like it, great. Automatically Appended Next Post: It could certainly use some more fine detailing on the armor or the head to give it a sense of scale. And I would have liked to see the obsidian crystals or whatever they are, in twined more gracefully into the design. If someone gave me a free one, the first thing I would do is cut off the legs. No legs would work better in my opinion than those legs. Automatically Appended Next Post: Just curious, but those of you who like the golem...what is it you like about it? What aspect of the mini appeals to you?
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Post by: Alpharius
I thought the golem was comically awful when I saw it.
Then I saw the $40 price tag and...think it is even worse now.
I wish the House Style at Mantic wasn't so cartoonishly exaggerated on many large figures, but it is what it is.
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Post by: AlexHolker
I'm firmly on Team The Golem Is Bad.
The body shape, as has been discussed, is terrible. If nothing else it needs bigger feet and a head higher up the torso.
The surface detail is also terrible. There is nothing about this that says obsidian except that it is painted black. It's painted the wrong black - matt grey instead of glossy black, it's mostly one big blunt object instead of being a mass of many knapped pieces of obsidian, and it is dominated by crystals when the definition of a glass like obsidian is is that it is not crystalline. An obsidian golem should have the same sort of feel as if you were making a broken-glass-and-razor-blade golem, and this does not.
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Post by: Zywus
 timetowaste85 wrote:Mantic has decided to go with the big upper body with small legs look. It's kind of "their thing". Not everyone will like it, sure, but it's the style they obviously like. Vote with your wallet. Buy em if you like em, buy other companies' models if you don't. Other companies do similar things, like Reaper's Earth Elementsl. Clearly there is a market for this kind of thing.
It's kinda "everyone's thing" unfortunately. If anything Manic should've gone for the not skinny legs /not ridiculously oversized torso market.
Oh well. At least the undead looks good as usual.
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Post by: Barzam
I suspect many people will like it because it's so cartoony looking. I'm in the ambivalent camp though. I don't love it, but I certainly don't hate it.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Are they actually supposed to be made of obsidian? I thought they were just named that because obsidian sounds edgier (heh) than black. Also, Black Golem would have been better used as the name of a classic 70's trash film.
72319
Post by: highlord tamburlaine
What does all this golem talk mean for the nature elemental?
The nature elemental was supposed to be based off the golem body, wasn't it?
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Post by: Polonius
BobtheInquisitor wrote:Are they actually supposed to be made of obsidian? I thought they were just named that because obsidian sounds edgier (heh) than black. Also, Black Golem would have been better used as the name of a classic 70's trash film.
Black Golem and Dolemite team up in Funk Revenge II, now playing in cinemas nationwide!
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Forty dollars??
What? Mantic, you so silly.
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Post by: Polonius
Alpharius wrote:I thought the golem was comically awful when I saw it.
Then I saw the $40 price tag and...think it is even worse now.
I wish the House Style at Mantic wasn't so cartoonishly exaggerated on many large figures, but it is what it is.
that's... a lot of money for a not-great model.
I wouldn't want to be trying to market that, especially against this:
http://www.reapermini.com/Miniatures/Bones/price/77185
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Polonius wrote: BobtheInquisitor wrote:Are they actually supposed to be made of obsidian? I thought they were just named that because obsidian sounds edgier (heh) than black. Also, Black Golem would have been better used as the name of a classic 70's trash film.
Black Golem and Dolemite team up in Funk Revenge II, now playing in cinemas nationwide!
I would watch those.
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Post by: NinthMusketeer
I'm not a fan of the golem, the more I look at it the more I dislike it. Its proportions just look silly to me but I do think a better paint job would help it. What it does look good for is conversion fodder. As a base to put other pieces over/onto I think it would work well.
Perhaps part of the reason the golem looks so bad is its pairing with that dwarf caster who looks so good. Though I suspect their inclusion together may be intentional, which at least means Mantic knows the golem... could be improved.
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Post by: DaveC
highlord tamburlaine wrote:What does all this golem talk mean for the nature elemental?
The nature elemental was supposed to be based off the golem body, wasn't it?
Yep
I guess the shoulder pads and head are separate and there will be a piece to fit into the front of the torso and a different head.
The concepts looked so much nicer
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Post by: Polonius
I actually like the Great Golem. It ties in well with the regular golems, and won't be a pain to paint. The price tag is a bit steep for a model that isn't stellar, but it's also a big chunk of resin, and there are plenty of even worse looking $40 models out there.
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Post by: overtyrant
Really really like the Dwarf sorcerer!
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Post by: primalexile
Mantic.... Almost....
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Post by: Da Boss
That Golem is a terrible sculpt. Whatever about the stylistic choices, I can live with those, especially for a Golem, but the actual detailing is terrible. Those crystals jutting out of the back seem to come out of nowhere, and the textures on the golem itself are god awful.
I actually think the painter did a fair job of trying to save that terrible mini, but I reckon there is just no excuse for producing something so poor. That will not sell in large numbers, and it will lose them money because of it. Poor choice. If I'd pledged for a deal containing one, I would be feeling pretty annoyed.
Mantic BADLY need better QC.
Edit: The longer I look at it, the worse it looks. I'm definitely someone who wants Mantic to succeed, but for that reason I will NOT be defending miniatures of such low quality because in the end it does nothing good for the company when they release drek like that.
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Post by: Commissar-Danno
Where is the change log for this update to the PDF?
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Post by: Sigvatr
The Golem is terrible :(
Skinny legs that would never be able to hold its weight, the crystals in the back look very off and the paint job is awful too with a hard visual disconnection between body color and crystal color instead of the colors blending in.
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Post by: DaveC
I think they just split the double pages into individual pages so it can be used on tablets but I haven't looked at in detail.
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Post by: mattjgilbert
DaveC wrote:
I think they just split the double pages into individual pages so it can be used on tablets but I haven't looked at in detail.
Plus restored an omitted paragraph in counter-charges and fixed a bunch of typos.
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Post by: timetowaste85
I don't think its bad, but the price tag is almost GW level crazy. I'll stick with the Reaper bones Stone Golem. $6. Yeah...that's perfect.
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Post by: carlos13th
Really dont like that Golem. Also thats very pricey.
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Post by: Nostromodamus
Well it's proper resin, hence the price.
People would complain it's too heavy/hard to build if it was metal.
People would moan if it was restic, even though that works fine for big stuff.
It won't sell enough to justify HIPS.
What SHOULD it have been made in?
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Post by: NinthMusketeer
I think the argument is that at $40 it should be a better model, regardless of the material. At least that's where I'm at.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Alex C wrote:Well it's proper resin, hence the price.
People would complain it's too heavy/hard to build if it was metal.
People would moan if it was restic, even though that works fine for big stuff.
It won't sell enough to justify HIPS.
What SHOULD it have been made in?
It would have been far better in restic. A cheaper and more deserving medium.
But let's be fair--people would moan no matter what medium it was made in because that mini is...well, it's Mantic's pumbaagor.
It just makes me wonder who approved the sculpt. Surely even the people who like it can see that it could have been made more attractive to the larger market. When some Mantic guy saw this cross his desk with a provisional $40 price tag, did he just yawn and stamp the form?
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Post by: highlord tamburlaine
Paint job and details on the body look fine to me.
My biggest issue is the way it's positioned. It's legs are so far back from the rest of the body, with almost gorilla- like proportions.
Which would have been fine, had they put one of his arms resting on the ground possibly.
That price tag too. I'd have been good for a 20 buck restic one. At that size and price I wouldn't feel bad about chopping into it to convert the pose on it.
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Post by: ArtIsGreat
Yeah, for 15 who gives a gak, at 40? Cmonnnnnn. Not personally offended like some, but at the price why not dig up something awesome like the Ilyad earth elemental?
HEH if it was in restic at least all the mould lines and flash would give it some detail
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Post by: timetowaste85
Yeah, at $20 I'd probably get it if I played Abyssal Dwarves. At $40, is be looking at alternatives. I'm a Mantic junkie, but that model doesn't impress me.
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Post by: Necros
I don't mind the golem thingy.. not a model I need, but I wouldn't turn it away if it was a KS freebie I do like the majority of the dungeon saga minis I've seen though, looking forward to painting em up.
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Post by: RiTides
That dwarf, on the other hand, is quite good!
I agree the greater obsidian golem is weak, a shame since the lesser golems are pretty awesome - one of just a few I've decided to go for the official models on. I think they're better than any alternative full unit of golems (although there are some really impressive individual golem sculpts out there).
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Post by: Azazelx
 judgedoug wrote: carlos13th wrote:Yeah I wouldn't buy models from Mantic based on concept art alone either. They have shown us that's a losing proposition for the customer.
I agree in 2012/2013 but since then everything has panned out quite well.
Unless you're not a fan of the giant upper torso/skinny legs look, of course...
I'd buy a WMH Troll model to proxy for that golem any day of the week.
I do like the Chaos Dwarf sorcerer. I'll pick that up at some stage.
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Post by: RiTides
ArtIsGreat wrote:Not personally offended like some, but at the price why not dig up something awesome like the Ilyad earth elemental?
Regarding this, I have never been able to find that model despite searching really hard for a while... my other problem is that it's just a single model in a very specific pose, so you can't make a unit.
Also note that it's only the right size for a lesser obsidian golem (fits on a 40 or 50mm base and I think is actually smaller than Mantic's lesser golems). But if anyone finds one, let me know
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Post by: heartserenade
Oh dear, those legs. I've passed on a lot of Mantic figures that I would've bought in a heartbeat if not for their legs. Their tralls are awesome... but gak son, they need to do some squats. Their ogres are like gym buddies who always skip leg day. And now this golem.
I'm glad their Undead are still ace, and I might be buying Forces of the Abyss because I like what I'm seeing so far. But these? I'm sorry Mantic I really want to give you my money on these but I just can't.
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Post by: .Mikes.
Personally I love the golem. It looks awesome. Makes me more excited to the see the Earth Elemental.
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Post by: Polonius
You might be thinking of the trolls. The ogres are quite nice models, if a bit deceptively limited in options:
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Post by: Red Viper
I like it.
But not enough to pay $40.
Next Mantic sale though, I'm going crazy.
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Post by: heartserenade
Polonius wrote:
You might be thinking of the trolls. The ogres are quite nice models, if a bit deceptively limited in options:
No, I'm definitely thinking about the Ogres.
Those legs are still too small for someone with an upper body that huge.
Also I dunno if my mind is playing tricks on me but I remember seeing ogres in Mantic's Dungeon Saga (or is it the future ogre releases?) and they have thicker legs.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
judgedoug wrote: carlos13th wrote:Yeah I wouldn't buy models from Mantic based on concept art alone either. They have shown us that's a losing proposition for the customer.
I agree in 2012/2013 but since then everything has panned out quite well.
C-C-C-Combo Breaker!
The art for the greater golems looks like heroic torso done right. The actual mini...does not resemble the art.
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Post by: NTRabbit
heartserenade wrote:
Those legs are still too small for someone with an upper body that huge.
Also I dunno if my mind is playing tricks on me but I remember seeing ogres in Mantic's Dungeon Saga (or is it the future ogre releases?) and they have thicker legs.
My army is Ogres and I love the Mantic ones. No, none of the Ogres made it into Dungeon Saga, you're thinking of the Zombie Trolls
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Post by: heartserenade
Maybe it's the future releases then? I remember there being a standard bearer or something. Am I misremembering things? Can anyone help me out?
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Post by: NinthMusketeer
You're thinking of the Ogre Braves, the renders seemed to have thicker legs and weren't pee-pee dancing.
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Post by: XC18
I also like the great golem model.
Maybe some people didn't see that he
is bending forward, hence the feeling that he is short-legged when looking from the front side.
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Post by: heartserenade
 NinthMusketeer wrote:You're thinking of the Ogre Braves, the renders seemed to have thicker legs and weren't pee-pee dancing.
Ah that's the one. Glad I wasn't hallucinating!
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Post by: .Mikes.
Not sure if anyone posted it yet, but if you want to check out the golem against other minis, it's on the table in the Mantic video posted yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E17Ztf_Bs9E
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Post by: heartserenade
Nah, it still looks funny to me.
The Forest Shamblers, though. They'd look great especially if you add additional foliage on them. Forces of Nature might become my third army if the other units come out good(competing with Abyss). Hopefully the Centaurs and Sylvan kin will blow me away.
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Post by: scarletsquig
timetowaste85 wrote:Yeah, at $20 I'd probably get it if I played Abyssal Dwarves. At $40, is be looking at alternatives. I'm a Mantic junkie, but that model doesn't impress me.
Large Earth Elemental from Reaper Bones is a better sculpt at a quarter of the price. £6 in the UK, $10 USD?
Size looks quite similar too. Mantic have a lot of competition when it comes to big monsters, probably why they haven't made many.
I'm getting 2 of the Mantic ones via Kickstarter, gad they picked resin. Hopefully the earth elemental turns out better.
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Post by: .Mikes.
 scarletsquig wrote:
Large Earth Elemental from Reaper Bones is a better sculpt at a quarter of the price.
Meh, looks like someone left the Pilsbury Dough boy in the oven for too long.
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Post by: jorny
I think mantics problem is that they don't have a good art director, and they let that comic book guy do concept art, that is why we end up with terrible desings like the basileans.
50896
Post by: heartserenade
 jorny wrote:I think mantics problem is that they don't have a good art director, and they let that comic book guy do concept art, that is why we end up with terrible desings like the basileans.
The Basilean concept is actually okay. It's the execution of the models that are kinda off-putting.
82449
Post by: jorny
heartserenade wrote: jorny wrote:I think mantics problem is that they don't have a good art director, and they let that comic book guy do concept art, that is why we end up with terrible desings like the basileans.
The Basilean concept is actually okay. It's the execution of the models that are kinda off-putting.
The concepts for the men at arms looks like they belong in a 90's cartoon. The helmets are ugly with useless vizors and a single feather for a plume that sticks traight up. The armour looks like a mishmash because of those strange plate knee and elbow caps that seem to be tacked on. The sisters are not much better with bell sleeves and those incredibly long and impractical loin cloths. this together with boots halfway up the thigh (boots with what looks like kneepads for roller blades even!) does not give a good look. And then I have not even started to talk about the concept for the arbalest which is the worst of them all.
Also, does someone at mantic have a fetish for loin clothes? Because it seems like every single fantasy model from mantic have one.
Otherwise it seems like the quality of the models have improved with this kickstarter, I like the abyssal dwarf character, the ogre braves looks good as well. The forest shamblers are kind of cute and the abyssals are also ok, even though they are not my cup of tea.
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Post by: Azazelx
Technically though, the Abyssal Dwarf character (which seems the best of this batch) isn't part of this KS. It's just a regular release.
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Post by: Da Boss
Yeah the Dwarf character is quite cool looking. I'm not a huge fan of the Abyssal Dwarf aesthetic but he pulls it off very well indeed.
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Post by: NTRabbit
Also worth mentioning, I think the Mantic Golem is quite a bit bigger than the Reaper Elemental, now that I've looked at them - the Reaper one fits on a 40mm square base, whereas the Mantic one looks like it's on an 80mm or 100mm square base in the size comparison shot, with the 50mm square based lesser obsidian golem behnd it
Along with the resin, the extra size is likely contributing to the price.
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Post by: NAVARRO
Still not a fan of the majority of minis that Mantic releases I still believe there are quite lots of room for improvement there...
With that said I think mantic should really concentrate more on a good artistic direction all seems deprived of a mature designer eye, its a bit amateurish.... a pass for me.
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Post by: Da Boss
It's really unfortunate that that mess of a sculpt is their first big splash release since the release of Age of Sigmar. I mean, I could create something similar with Plasticine and some bitz, and I'm a completely crap sculptor.
If new players are looking excitedly at new releases, I'd say a lot of them could be turned off by miniatures that bad. This is a regular problem with Mantic which I thought they had mostly gotten over (recent releases have been much better, in general), but that golem is just awful.
70422
Post by: NTRabbit
Aesthetics are subjective, just because you don't like something doesn't mean everyone will. Good example, the incredibly polarising mantic Elves - people with a Tolkien or older idea of elves love them, people with a modern pointy eared human idea of elves despise them with the fire of a thousand suns.
The only objective thing not to like about the minis is technical failures, chiefly the Men at Arms scale and chain mail screw up, and the melty goblins. Otherwise, I've seen people both like and dislike the new golem, often citing the exact same reasons.
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Post by: NAVARRO
 Da Boss wrote:It's really unfortunate that that mess of a sculpt is their first big splash release since the release of Age of Sigmar. I mean, I could create something similar with Plasticine and some bitz, and I'm a completely crap sculptor.
If new players are looking excitedly at new releases, I'd say a lot of them could be turned off by miniatures that bad. This is a regular problem with Mantic which I thought they had mostly gotten over (recent releases have been much better, in general), but that golem is just awful.
I must confess Im one of them... Today I went to a GWstore and yes the rules may not be what you wanted and prices a tad too much but when you see AOS plastics in full display... well they are much superior in every way to any mantic kits. Which is a shame because rules wise KOW seems to be something more professional than AOS.
SInce I only have time for one game my decision is made and Im rebasing to circular bases now. I find that these days with so many options that artistic direction should never be disregarded. Unfortunately the sum of pros and cons tipped me to another game with IMO superior miniatures. The golem is something I would not buy in the 80's and even if its just one miniature it does show the lack care in what I consider the most important thing on a miniatures game... the miniatures themselves.
70422
Post by: NTRabbit
Age of Sigmar isn't actually a game, as a game by definition requires rules that function, but otherwise good luck to you; I personally find the Sigmarines to be bland and totally lacking in imagination, despite reaching the typical for GW middling technical proficiency.
Paying $85 for 5 of the things when I can get a ~45 mini KoW starter army for $60 is a whole other story.
I also dispute the notion that the miniatures are the most important part of a miniatures game - they so incredibly aren't. Rules always come first. You should scrap your plan to buy Age of Sigmor, go buy the Frostgrave rules from Osprey - no minis, all they make is rules - and use your existing minis in that. You won't look back.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
NTRabbit wrote:Age of Sigmar isn't actually a game, as a game requires rules that function, but otherwise good luck to you; I personally find the Sigmarines to be bland and totally lacking in imagination, despite reaching the typical for GW middling technical proficiency.
Paying $85 for 5 of the things when I can get a ~45 mini KoW starter army for $60 is a whole other story.
I'm sorry, but really? Really? You think there is nothing technically lacking with Mantic's Skylander golem, but GW's new plastics are only of middling technical quality?
You can say the aesthetics are different and your subjective opinion is that the golem is a more interesting mini, but claiming the two are in any way comparable on a scale of objective execution and casting quality is wrong. Actually wrong.
Besides, GW can afford to put out $40 marmite sculpts (and marmite is being generous to the golem), but Mantic really can't. They saved a couple hundred bucks by not having an art director with the power and sobriety to reject contentious sculpts, but they will lose thousands and thousands of dollars worth of potential sales as a result. Automatically Appended Next Post: NTRabbit wrote:
I also dispute the notion that the miniatures are the most important part of a miniatures game - they so incredibly aren't. Rules always come first. You should scrap your plan to buy Age of Sigmor, go buy the Frostgrave rules from Osprey - no minis, all they make is rules - and use your existing minis in that. You won't look back.
Ugh, really? Good thing there are so many free rules.
I don't understand why you are wasting your time with Mantic or GW at all if you don't care about minis. You can find better game mechanics than either have in some Eurogame about growing corn.
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Post by: NTRabbit
GWs technical quality really is middling at best, they are consistently made to look like happy meal toys compared to the things that Bandai can do, and the fidelity of detail, if not special tricks, that the hobby kit manufacturers achieve.
Anyone claiming GW leads anything with their plastics is flat out kidding themselves, as they haven't changed a thing in over a decade, while the big players zoom off into space, and their small competitors have inexorably caught up.
Mantic's minis sure aren't Bandai techincal quality, but like Warlord and Wargames Factory they're technically almost on par with GW now - and like Bandai, they do it for a price that makes GW look ridiculous.
Seriously, go buy Frostgrave, get some small scale Bandai kits to play it with, and as well as having a much better game (it's hard not to be better than utter trash) with much better minis, the money you'll save from getting that instead of Age of Sigmor will make a nice deposit on a new car.
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Post by: Thraxas Of Turai
Where is the thread for the Bandai miniatures game?
It is a shame that the Greater Obsidian Golem looks so poor as I love his smaller brethren from the original KOW Kickstarter. That said the Abyssal Dwarf Mage is great, anybody know who did the sculpt?
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Post by: Taarnak
NTRabbit wrote:Age of Sigmar isn't actually a game, as a game by definition requires rules that function.
NTRabbit wrote:
I also dispute the notion that the miniatures are the most important part of a miniatures game - they so incredibly aren't. Rules always come first. You should scrap your plan to buy Age of Sigmor, go buy the Frostgrave rules from Osprey - no minis, all they make is rules - and use your existing minis in that. You won't look back.
I can't believe you made these statements seriously...
Age of Sigmar is a game and has rules that function. Maybe not how and as well as everyone would like, but they do function. Also "that function" is your version of the definition. Dictionary and generally understood definitions don't include that caveat.
The second statement is entirely subjective. Miniatures aren't the most important part of a miniatures game for you. Rules always come first for you.
As to the Golem: Wow. They really need an art director who's vocabulary includes the word "no", and the phrase "do it over". And who will judiciously apply those to both concept artists and sculptors.
~Eric
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
NTRabbit wrote:GWs technical quality really is middling at best, they are consistently made to look like happy meal toys compared to the things that Bandai can do, and the fidelity of detail, if not special tricks, that the hobby kit manufacturers achieve.
Anyone claiming GW leads anything with their plastics is flat out kidding themselves, as they haven't changed a thing in over a decade, while the big players zoom off into space, and their small competitors have inexorably caught up.
Mantic's minis sure aren't Bandai techincal quality, but like Warlord and Wargames Factory they're technically almost on par with GW now - and like Bandai, they do it for a price that makes GW look ridiculous.
Seriously, go buy Frostgrave, get some small scale Bandai kits to pla it with, and as well as having a much better game with much better minis, the money you'll save from getting that instead of Age of Sigmor will make a nice deposit on a new car.
I never said GW lead the field in quality...just that they kick Mantic's ass at it (with the possible exception of the early Renedra stuff). The new golem is all kinds of chunky, lacking sharp details, fidelity to the concept, or a professional level of attention to proportion, composition, and abstraction. And I'm going to go ahead and assume typical Mantic metal casting quality, which is 'alright'. Now, because it is a construct, many of those flaws can be chalked up to an in-universe creator, but it still leaves the mini in a poor state.
GW's minis fit together like a delightful puzzle, with almost no mold lines and no pinning necessary. The design may not be to your taste, but the details are present in abundance and clear, the edges sharp, and the surfaces smooth. The CAD process has eliminated most of the traditional weaknesses of plastics, and the end result is that the minis have more three dimensionality/ all around composition than most resins I've ever seen. Are they perfect? No. Are they better than Bandai? Depends on the kit, but Bandai is not their direct competition, so it doesn't really matter.
Besides, I have a lot of gunpla and Bandai kits, and GW doesn't even need to come close to their best to be the best in the wargames miniatures market.
PS: Everyone should get the BFG cruiser-sized Space Battleship Yamato Mecha Collection kits for the uh, blue pointy ship and the grey cylinder ship. They are the peppermint orgasms of snap-fit spaceship models, and they are less than 10 bucks shipped from Amazon. Truly full of splendor.
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Post by: NTRabbit
No, they are absolutely and definitively not, and anyone attempting to argue otherwise needs to stop drowning in koolaid - and GW stopped being the best in the wargames market a little while ago. That's what happens when you stop spending on innovation, and pretend you have no competition.
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Post by: NAVARRO
NTRabbit wrote:Age of Sigmar isn't actually a game, as a game by definition requires rules that function, but otherwise good luck to you; I personally find the Sigmarines to be bland and totally lacking in imagination, despite reaching the typical for GW middling technical proficiency.
Paying $85 for 5 of the things when I can get a ~45 mini KoW starter army for $60 is a whole other story.
I also dispute the notion that the miniatures are the most important part of a miniatures game - they so incredibly aren't. Rules always come first. You should scrap your plan to buy Age of Sigmor, go buy the Frostgrave rules from Osprey - no minis, all they make is rules - and use your existing minis in that. You won't look back.
To each its own, I can understand you consider the "broken" rules unbearable and the miniatures secondary, I mean thats the beauty of our hobby it caters to different people with different backgrounds and preferences. With that said I was looking for a game to introduce my very young son to fantasy wargaming settings, nothing too complex just fun. We already play spacehulk for our scifi fix and X wing for spaceship battles ( also have zombicide but want to wait a bit due to its more gory nature) SO... fantasy easy game? I have songs of blades and heroes, played Confrontation, have Hordes from PP and also Alkemy but none of them would appeal to my kid for different reasons. ( songs of blades and heroes and also warhammer quest were good candidates but one is board gamish and the other rpgish)...
AOS is free, and maybe its crap in the long therm... but its a strong visual experience both in minis and artwork, that may tip my son away from minecraft... thats my simple and humble goal.
Mantic visual appeal and cool factor is not quite there and I would dread to follow the train wreck of miniatures news every month, I know I could go above and beyond and pick my minis and my rules and do my thing, but time is short and as such I must select now, rather than spend months looking for the optimal combo.
As for tons of minis at good prices Im not going to use the argument " quality /quantity" you know why? Because I believe that if you spend serious money producing loads of miniatures like mantic does you should be able with a minimal investment actually sort your quality... Mantic fails there because its getting away with it. I hope they improve but I have been hoping for years now... I don't have the inclination to invest in hopes, like I don't do it in Kickstarters... I buy the best minis that I can get when they are for sale. Mantic does not have the best minis by a long shot.
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