No, they are absolutely and definitively not, and anyone attempting to argue otherwise needs to stop drowning in koolaid - and GW stopped being the best in the wargames market a little while ago. That's what happens when you stop spending on innovation, and pretend you have no competition.
Hit and miss there... Things like the Glotkin, blightkings are wicked and on the top of their game but you can find plenty of crappy models too. Hit and miss.
Koolaid? wrong door mate, 100% wrong door there man.
Well, Mantic models suck as an advertisement for their game, but they are fine with people using whatever models they like. I can run an army for all but two of the mantic lists currently available from my various fantasy collections - Orcs - WFB Orcs Goblins - WFB Goblins Ogres - Trollbloods Trolls and LOTR Orcs (as Red Goblins) Kingdoms of Men - Historicals and LOTR Rohan (for two different themed lists) Undead - Mantic core troops, GW characters and elite units (the plastic black knights are amazing) Elves - LOTR Elves Dwarves - WFB Dwarves
The unit basing and easygoing nature of Mantic with regard to other manufacturers means I can use whatever I like from my collections for my games, which is pretty sweet.
Stuff like the Golem just pisses me off because it's poor advertising for a game I really want to see take off, and I don't believe many people will buy the miniature at that price for that quality. Anyone remember the waddling drakon riders? They eventually just dropped those minis entirely, because they probably sold poorly due to being awful miniatures. I know Mantic is a small, enthusiastic crew, but they need to get someone critical on board to help them avoid these mistakes. They CAN do consistently good stuff, look at the Dungeon Saga minis for examples of pretty decent standard stuff on the whole, but then they'll poop out some misproportioned crap like this Golem and pretend like it's great.
On "who is the best in Wargaming Plastics" the Perrys seem to lead the field, to be honest, in the sweetspot of price vs. quality. GW are definitely contenders though, just on the expensive side with aesthetic choices I don't agree with a lot of the time.
I agree that quite a few models are more misses than hits. The undead range does have more "hits" than other factions for me and I just like their abyssal dwarves as far as the Older ranges. One of my buddies was intrigued when I mentioned we can port our whfb into kow. Having unit sized basing without removing individuals really sparked a few ideas in his head for armies.
I also agree with the miniatures the Perrys put out, I picked up a box of mercenaries for conversions and the detail and options are amazing for the price
I must be the only guy on these forums who could take or leave the WotR Perry minis. They aren't bad. They just don't do anything for me. Ah well. I'll stick with my 6th edition style Warhammer Fantasy minis. That particular style has always been my favorite.
I also find the Perry minis boring. I also wouldn't call them technically superior to GW at all. If someone thinks GW isn't innovative enough, I don't see how they could claim the Perry's are. They have modern Renedra quality but a 1990-era sprue sensibility.
Besides, I thought we were just discussing quality and not quality-per-dollar, which is an entirely different matter, and a much worse comparison for the golem.
Da Boss wrote: Well, Mantic models suck as an advertisement for their game,
As NTRabit said, that's subjective. They're what got me into Mantic in the first place.
Me too, but my first purchases were before the era of Men at Arms, goblin spotters and greater golems. Some people want to be able to love an entire range before they make the switch, and those people will have issues with Mantic.
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Sigvatr wrote: Mantic Goblins are goddarn AMAZING. I LOVE them. Way, way better than the GW ones.
Do you mean the plastics? I have heard tons of complaints about their casting quality, and since they were supposed to be from the company that did the MaA, I believe all of them.
HoweverI love their design more than GW or Reaper/Pathfinder/Bones3 goblins. The only goblins I like more were the designs for that one kickstarter that Sort of fizzled out, the ones that look like aliens. Dammit, what was that company's name?
If someone wants to trade a couple sprues of Mantic gob is for a sprue of enforcers, I'd love to see for myself.
Da Boss wrote: Well, Mantic models suck as an advertisement for their game,
As NTRabit said, that's subjective. They're what got me into Mantic in the first place.
And me. The hard plastic Undead, and the Stormrage Veterans. And to a lesser extent, the Orcs.
Even so, they have had lots of misses since. I do think a good few of their models let them down, but I often get the impression that they keep running out of time/money and the sculpts/production minis turn up and they have to say "gak, that'll have to do"
Da Boss wrote: Well, Mantic models suck as an advertisement for their game,
As NTRabit said, that's subjective. They're what got me into Mantic in the first place.
Me too, but my first purchases were before the era of Men at Arms, goblin spotters and greater golems. Some people want to be able to love an entire range before they make the switch, and those people will have issues with Mantic.
Agreed. However I actually like the men at arms. They're ugly, which is how I would view a medieval-equivalent people. My only issue with them is they're a bit too static.
When the first KoWKS started I rmembering really struggling to decide which army I liked more when it came time to choosing the reward. It cam down to either Orcs, Dwarfs or Undead, and in the end I started tossing coins. Sometimes I wonder that if the coins had come up Undead I'f I'd have an army of just werewolves by now.....
NTRabbit wrote: GWs technical quality really is middling at best, they are consistently made to look like happy meal toys compared to the things that Bandai can do, and the fidelity of detail, if not special tricks, that the hobby kit manufacturers achieve.
Anyone claiming GW leads anything with their plastics is flat out kidding themselves, as they haven't changed a thing in over a decade, while the big players zoom off into space, and their small competitors have inexorably caught up.
Mantic's minis sure aren't Bandai techincal quality, but like Warlord and Wargames Factory they're technically almost on par with GW now - and like Bandai, they do it for a price that makes GW look ridiculous.
Seriously, go buy Frostgrave, get some small scale Bandai kits to play it with, and as well as having a much better game (it's hard not to be better than utter trash) with much better minis, the money you'll save from getting that instead of Age of Sigmor will make a nice deposit on a new car.
I'm waiting on my two copies of AoS to arrive right now.
I'm sorry that your apparent GW hate cant allow you to appreciate their new models. I dislike them as a company as well, but I also know that I'm a tiny drop in the bucket, and I'm also willing and able to purchase whichever kits I really want for my collection. I'm not a fan of Disney or Coka Cola either, but I'll still watch the new Star Wars and drink Coke occasionally.
GW"s minis are the best that there are in many ways in this industry/hobby. Dreamforge are close or equal, as both companies have utilised the advantages of this tier of HIPS in different ways and lead the rest, including Renedra and whichever random Chinese companies that Mantic use. DFG via WGF are like the next step forward of the GW of 10 years ago's (!) move into multipart plastics, while GW themselves have taken a side road tangent into maximising what you can do with push-fit and modular/twinned kits. WGF's other stuff like Malifaux is getting close, but not quite there yet. We'll see how KD:M turns out soon enough.
Bandai on the other hand, don't make miniatures. Though you could play a theme-park-themed game of 7TV etc with their little PVC characters, or a great looking game of Gundamtech Gears.
I just got my copy of Lion Rampant today, and I've already paid for/preordered my copy of Dragon Rampant. Frostgrave may or may not be something I add to my rules collection. Celtos and Wrath of Kings are both just sitting around here. AoS will probably get played precisely because it is so simple, though I'll be treating it like Munchkin in terms of taking it seriously or frequency. Mostly, though - I'll be playing SAGA - probably with fantasy figures to get started while I work on my Vikings and their little mates, and KoW using everything from AoS figures to Citadel to Mantic to Reaper to Shieldwolf to Rackham prepaints and Schleich animals. And everything in between.
I actually pledged to get a ton of werewolves. Then they released pictures of the final sculpts and I sent a desperate email to Stewart begging him to switch my order to Men at Arms...
KOW KS1 and stuff like this Golem is why I didn't pledge on KOW2. They look to have done a little better this time, but...
Yeah, those are the reasons I only pledged $1 for access to the pledge manager. I even emailed Stewart and asked if we would get to see finished sculpts before we had to finalize our PM orders. He (or someone at Mantic) assured me that I would have a chance to see them.
It is a shame that the Greater Obsidian Golem looks so poor as I love his smaller brethren from the original KOW Kickstarter. That said the Abyssal Dwarf Mage is great, anybody know who did the sculpt?
I'll be using the Bones one. It's got the advantage of being totally free, since I have one sitting here already. If I ever want a far superior model, I'l use this.
Which still has "leg day" syndrome, but is a far better take on the same thing that the GOG is. Looks like the GOG takes some direct inspiration from it, actually.
Hm, I don't mind the GOG, except that it looks like a generic mineral thing, but definitely not obsidian. I played Hordes long enough to get used to tiny legs. And the price is pretty obnoxious, of course.
I find it rather amusing that Mantic started off as a peddler of cheap alternative miniatures to use with GW rules and now people are picking up Mantic's rules, but shopping around for better miniatures.
The Golem looks like a police sketch of the troll above provided by someone with a sever concussion.
The stupidest thing, to me at least, is that most of Mantics miniature failures seem, from the outside, to be based on laziness more than cost savings.
I literally can't think of another legitimate miniature company that wouldn't send the render/greens of the golem back to the sculptor and say, "haha, good one".
If the tiny leg thing had been adopted as a legitimate style choice then it could actually work. Rackham did that, but they did it with gorgeous sculpts where it felt like it was part of a coherent design.
I have to agree with the guy who said that Mantics biggest problem is their art direction. I was astounded to find out that some incredibly talented sculptors have worked for Mantic, even though most of their models looks like crap. It feels like someone got rejected by Marvel and DC one too many times and finally set their sights much lower. I'm extremely frustrated by this because I would LOVE it if Mantic could make models as good as their rules, but as it is, if I can't get into the models, I can't get into the game. And I don't want to proxy GW models either, I want an immersive package of rules, minis and fluff. And currently Mantic is only providing quality on one of those fronts (to be fair, I don't know their fluff because the minis make me not care). With their rules, their prices, AND models that looked good? They could conquer the world... I'm glad they're moving away from being a GW clone, although it would take a complete reboot to remove that "bad copy" aftertaste and make me able to take their fluff seriously.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I actually pledged to get a ton of werewolves. Then they released pictures of the final sculpts and I sent a desperate email to Stewart begging him to switch my order to Men at Arms...
Holy feth you got screwed twice there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: GW make technically great models. You can argue that they are over priced, unoriginal and poorly designed and in many cases I would agree but they are well cast and look like the model they were intending it too look like.
Personally my favorite HIPS stuff at the moment is probably coming from Perry.
lord_blackfang wrote: Hm, I don't mind the GOG, except that it looks like a generic mineral thing, but definitely not obsidian. I played Hordes long enough to get used to tiny legs. And the price is pretty obnoxious, of course.
I find it rather amusing that Mantic started off as a peddler of cheap alternative miniatures to use with GW rules and now people are picking up Mantic's rules, but shopping around for better miniatures.
To be fair, I've always done that, so me talking about it isn't any sign of change. People like Ellif and his club crew in Chicago, Judge Doug, etc have always used anything they like as well so it's not new. And I can see people still playing 8th not having any hesitation with grabbing Mantic's undead, etc. It might just go a bit more in both directions now, since there seems to be a lot of people who won't play WHFB if it's no longer officially in print (which boggles my mind, but look at the forum name change here!)
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Mymearan wrote: I have to agree with the guy who said that Mantics biggest problem is their art direction. I was astounded to find out that some incredibly talented sculptors have worked for Mantic, even though most of their models looks like crap. It feels like someone got rejected by Marvel and DC one too many times and finally set their sights much lower. I'm extremely frustrated by this because I would LOVE it if Mantic could make models as good as their rules, but as it is, if I can't get into the models, I can't get into the game. And I don't want to proxy GW models either, I want an immersive package of rules, minis and fluff. And currently Mantic is only providing quality on one of those fronts (to be fair, I don't know their fluff because the minis make me not care). With their rules, their prices, AND models that looked good? They could conquer the world... I'm glad they're moving away from being a GW clone, although it would take a complete reboot to remove that "bad copy" aftertaste and make me able to take their fluff seriously.
I understand what you're saying, but would you mind explaining why you need it to be a self-contained package? I'm asking in a non-sarcastic/confrontational way. I mean, an elf is an elf is a dwarf is a dwarf. The "closed IP" mideset in wargaming is really very much a GW invention, and not a particularly useful one at that. My personal "version" of Fantasy gaming is the Kings of War rules set in a bastardised version of Warhammer's Old World - using a mix of older (3e) and newer fluff, that happens to have a few more human and nonhuman Kingdoms shoehorned in. Which is why Gondor can fight Ogres or Mythological Rome can fight Blood Elves.
If you were playing WW2 games, would you not be willing to use RL history as your "fluff" and use 28mm figures from Artizan and Warlord? Or 15mm models by Batlefront andPSC? While using whichever ruleset you liked on the day
It is a shame that the Greater Obsidian Golem looks so poor as I love his smaller brethren from the original KOW Kickstarter. That said the Abyssal Dwarf Mage is great, anybody know who did the sculpt?
I'll be using the Bones one. It's got the advantage of being totally free, since I have one sitting here already. If I ever want a far superior model, I'l use this.
Which still has "leg day" syndrome, but is a far better take on the same thing that the GOG is. Looks like the GOG takes some direct inspiration from it, actually.
So more of an allied Giant, then? Is it metal or resin/restic?
Still I just did a google search and (clearly) know sweet FA about WMH. There's a bunch of large Trollbloods that have rocks growing/sticking(?) out of their body that would be appropriate.
Me too, but my first purchases were before the era of Men at Arms, goblin spotters and greater golems. Some people want to be able to love an entire range before they make the switch, and those people will have issues with Mantic.
I kinda get the feeling that this may be the issue for a couple of people here. Liking Mantic as a company so much that they've become invested in their models, rather than being objective. I bought the 2-player battle box several years ago which was advertised as having the rules in it, etc. Came with undead which are decent, and the dwarves, which I almost finished assembling 10 of before deciding that they were gak. Seriously, they've got worse/softer detail than the Warhammer Fantasy Regiments Dwarves from 87/88. The rulebook was a folded pamphlet, and an absolute joke, especially as it was described in a way to make buyers think they'd get some kind of book. Despite the incredibly gakky start, KoW has managed to become my Fantasy game of choice from long before AoS burned down the old world. It's just that I'd generally rather buy GW models to use then Mantic ones. Though I've got more than a few of Mantic's models as well. I just do my best to avoid the Pumbagors from both ranges.
Good thing is that I can use this golem as a base for conversion if I ever want a GOG. Like it's coming out of the earth, maybe (to hide the puny legs), and maybe sculpt a face.
I really love Mantic a lot for their rules and their humor and their mission-vision as a company, but that doesn't mean they get free pass when they produce miniatures that I think could have been done better. Same with GW: I hate them as a company but I will acknowledge if they do really good sculpts.
With regards to the Perry miniatures I wouldn't call them superior to GW miniatures, but they are certainly on par with them. For sure a lot of people will find them boring: they're meant to be historically accurate after all and that doesn't leave much room for creative additions. I can see how people who are more exposed to traditional fantasy miniatures can find them boring. Personally, I like my medieval men realistic so I am an avid fan of Perry miniatures.
And they paint really damn well:
Spoiler:
I think Mantic should partner with the Perry's or something. They've already partnered with Army Painter, Avatars of War and Frostgrave. Why not Perry?
As far as I know, Minion is still planning on eventually doing those up on plastic sprues. They're still getting their stuff casted from their first KS campaign.
I think those are some of my favorite goblin designs. Look totally different from everything else out there.
My Mantic goblins are so-so. The metal ones I have are pretty nice, and have a lot of personality.
I heard horror stories about the plastic goblins. Decided to snag a box someone was offloading cheaply. Very happy with them. They look nasty and look like they fit in excellently next to night goblins, as opposed to regular GW goblins. I have 0 issue with KoW Goblins. I didn't get any with soft sculpting detail. Their MaAs though...give me a pair of clippers, different heads (Elohi work well), and some serious time and I can make them look great. But I shouldn't need to. That's the problem. They should have been good right out of the box with no modification required.
I think Mantic should partner with the Perry's or something. They've already partnered with Army Painter, Avatars of War and Frostgrave. Why not Perry?
They've asked, Perry's aren't interested. IIRC the proposal was for reboxing perry minis as KoW human troops.
Mymearan wrote: I have to agree with the guy who said that Mantics biggest problem is their art direction. I was astounded to find out that some incredibly talented sculptors have worked for Mantic, even though most of their models looks like crap. It feels like someone got rejected by Marvel and DC one too many times and finally set their sights much lower. I'm extremely frustrated by this because I would LOVE it if Mantic could make models as good as their rules, but as it is, if I can't get into the models, I can't get into the game. And I don't want to proxy GW models either, I want an immersive package of rules, minis and fluff. And currently Mantic is only providing quality on one of those fronts (to be fair, I don't know their fluff because the minis make me not care). With their rules, their prices, AND models that looked good? They could conquer the world... I'm glad they're moving away from being a GW clone, although it would take a complete reboot to remove that "bad copy" aftertaste and make me able to take their fluff seriously.
I understand what you're saying, but would you mind explaining why you need it to be a self-contained package? I'm asking in a non-sarcastic/confrontational way. I mean, an elf is an elf is a dwarf is a dwarf. The "closed IP" mideset in wargaming is really very much a GW invention, and not a particularly useful one at that. My personal "version" of Fantasy gaming is the Kings of War rules set in a bastardised version of Warhammer's Old World - using a mix of older (3e) and newer fluff, that happens to have a few more human and nonhuman Kingdoms shoehorned in. Which is why Gondor can fight Ogres or Mythological Rome can fight Blood Elves.
If you were playing WW2 games, would you not be willing to use RL history as your "fluff" and use 28mm figures from Artizan and Warlord? Or 15mm models by Batlefront andPSC? While using whichever ruleset you liked on the day
I realize that having the complete package is the exception rather than the norm, but for me, it's one of the biggest reasons I started this hobby back in the day. Like many, I started with GW, specifically Fantasy. What I liked about it was the combination of an interesting world with interesting stories, great miniatures to go along with it, and a ruleset to make that world come alive on the tabletop. That's the mindset that brought me in, and it's a big part of why I love this hobby so much. It's not important to me in all games, like your example with WW2 obviously, or smaller skirmish games where it's just a bit of fun, like Deadzone which I love. But for a huge mass-battle game where I'm going to invest hundreds upon hundreds of hours, i want everything to be connected. If the company releases new fluff, a campaign, or whatever, I would like it to be supported by new models, new scenarios, etc. I want to play against other people who are using the same fluff, so that the narrative of the battle makes sense and is internally consistent. And so on!
timetowaste85 wrote: I heard horror stories about the plastic goblins. Decided to snag a box someone was offloading cheaply. Very happy with them. They look nasty and look like they fit in excellently next to night goblins, as opposed to regular GW goblins. I have 0 issue with KoW Goblins. I didn't get any with soft sculpting detail. Their MaAs though...give me a pair of clippers, different heads (Elohi work well), and some serious time and I can make them look great. But I shouldn't need to. That's the problem. They should have been good right out of the box with no modification required.
Got 150ish Mantic Goblins, no bad batch so far. Mantic Goblins just perfectly capture the Goblin spirit of poking things with shark stickz and funny grimaces.
Ohmygodyes, now I can get my Tomb Kings out of the basement.
Love the list. I was going to complain about the Casket being done wrong, but then I figured out the Soul Snare is the Casket of Souls analogue and the unit upgrade Casket is something new. Cool stuff. Love the new units. Are the Husks supposed to be man-sized Ushabti? Maybe using the Crocodile Games god-headed infantry, hmm? Monolith, superb. Bone Dragon, super awesome. I can only find one thing missing from the GW range, the alternate build of the Snake Surfer models without riders. Those are supposed to have some sort of stony gaze. Wait, I get it, we just put the Dragon Breath item on the Worm Riders, right? Cool. Sorry for the rambling.
Ohmygodyes, now I can get my Tomb Kings out of the basement.
Love the list. I was going to complain about the Casket being done wrong, but then I figured out the Soul Snare is the Casket of Souls analogue and the unit upgrade Casket is something new. Cool stuff. Love the new units. Are the Husks supposed to be man-sized Ushabti? Maybe using the Crocodile Games god-headed infantry, hmm? Monolith, superb. Bone Dragon, super awesome. I can only find one thing missing from the GW range, the alternate build of the Snake Surfer models without riders. Those are supposed to have some sort of stony gaze. Wait, I get it, we just put the Dragon Breath item on the Worm Riders, right? Cool. Sorry for the rambling.
Sepulchre Stalkers and Necropolis Knights are wrapped into the same entry yes.
I do wish we didn't need to use magic items to differentiate the two, maybe I'd like to field more than one of each at some point. But 1 missing unit isn't at all bad, especially given all the new stuff.
Ohmygodyes, now I can get my Tomb Kings out of the basement.
Love the list. I was going to complain about the Casket being done wrong, but then I figured out the Soul Snare is the Casket of Souls analogue and the unit upgrade Casket is something new. Cool stuff. Love the new units. Are the Husks supposed to be man-sized Ushabti? Maybe using the Crocodile Games god-headed infantry, hmm? Monolith, superb. Bone Dragon, super awesome. I can only find one thing missing from the GW range, the alternate build of the Snake Surfer models without riders. Those are supposed to have some sort of stony gaze. Wait, I get it, we just put the Dragon Breath item on the Worm Riders, right? Cool. Sorry for the rambling.
Ohmygodyes, now I can get my Tomb Kings out of the basement.
Love the list. I was going to complain about the Casket being done wrong, but then I figured out the Soul Snare is the Casket of Souls analogue and the unit upgrade Casket is something new. Cool stuff. Love the new units. Are the Husks supposed to be man-sized Ushabti? Maybe using the Crocodile Games god-headed infantry, hmm? Monolith, superb. Bone Dragon, super awesome. I can only find one thing missing from the GW range, the alternate build of the Snake Surfer models without riders. Those are supposed to have some sort of stony gaze. Wait, I get it, we just put the Dragon Breath item on the Worm Riders, right? Cool. Sorry for the rambling.
RoninXiC wrote: KoW Goblins have a great style. The way Goblins sh ould look like.
Shame is, that the casting is sometimes reaalllyyy bad. Like super rounded edges and swallowed details.
I quite like their aesthetic. If/when they get redone with better sculpts and details I'm sure I'll pick some up.
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Silent Puffin? wrote: Why does the League of Rhoridia have no Swordsmen or Greatswords analogues?
Combine/ally Rhoridia with KoM and you've got your Empire analogue.
I read about the goblin kits after ordering the starter army; have to say I am reasonably pleased with them (and very happy they are not the nightmare some people apparently went through...). Like most Mantic kits they are somewhat... mono-pose. Managed to bevel arms, heads and necks etc to get them looking somewhat varied and am quite happy with their looks and how they went together.
I have a question for all of you guys, who know much more about KoW than I do.
I have an odd idea knocking around my head. I want to get into a game that's smaller than 28mm scale, to try to get myself back into painting (was originally thinking Dropzone Commander). The hordes and hordes of guys that most games use have become a hindrance lately - with a newborn in the house to work a schedule around, plus general 30-something life going on, dozens of rank and file guys are a pain to paint. But I've always been interested in KoW/ WHFB style games of blocks of troops, but I'd rather have a game that is not as crunchy as 40K or WHFB, as much as those are my first loves. KoW actually looks like it has just the right amount of speed vs. crunch for me.
Would KoW work fine in 15mm scale? I assume all I would need to do is halve all the range and movement measurements. And because of the way that units of troops are handled, where it's the size of the formation that "really" matters, would a 15mm army set up like the picture below work suitably, (for this example as an orc army with allied goblins)?
The bases above are all 28mm cavalry-sized. From what I have read of the army lists and rules for KoW and how it doesn't require removal of models, it seems like I could use each above base as an analogy of the smallest KoW unit size (Troop), with individuals like army standards, heroes, and wizards based individually on something like a 20mmx20mm base. For example the unit of three wolves on the far left of the above pic would simply be a "troop" level unit of Gore Riders. The rest pictured would be Axers, Skulks, and allied Gobbo Sharpsticks. The large troll doesn't have a fitting profile in the free army list, but maybe in the hardcover rules that has expanded units for each army it would be a giant or a troll bruiser?
I figured any time I fielded a regiment or horde-strength unit in this 15mm setup, I would just have three bases of similar troops in a row, held together by a movement tray.
What's the opinion? The added bonus is that when adding a game to compete with the ones on my already groaning shelves (and that I have to likely paint both sides of to get a game in), an army like the one pictured above would set me back a whole 25 bucks, with additions costing 8-12 for 3-4 more bases of figures.
It works fine apparently. I haven't played it myself, but there are plenty of bat reps on the main forums of people who played the rules using that scale. From memory the only thing which really changed was swapping inches for centimetres.
.Mikes. wrote: It works fine apparently. I haven't played it myself, but there are plenty of bat reps on the main forums of people who played the rules using that scale. From memory the only thing which really changed was swapping inches for centimetres.
*Smack*
Duh. Me stupid American forgetting there are other things than inches. Of course I could use centimeters, because that would give close to a 50% scale and not even have to change any numbers so there'd be no confusion.
Pretty horrible when one of my favorite games are Battlefleet Gothic and confrontation, which use only centimeters.
The only change I see right off the bat is that the "scale" of the armies involved would be less- more in the dozens not hundreds. I just wanted to get an idea form others who have actually played the game, not just perused the rules like I have, if I'd run into any rules snags. Possibly the "leader point" though in casual games it'd be easy to just nominate the center of the unit base.
I'm using Arcane Legions minis and 1/72 scale minis to build my "for gaming" KoW forces, and they work pretty well. Once you cut the pegs off the bottom, the AL infantry minis have base discs the same size as Mantic minis', so you can even use Mantic bases for heroes or skirmishers.
AegisGrimm wrote: I have a question for all of you guys, who know much more about KoW than I do.
I have an odd idea knocking around my head. I want to get into a game that's smaller than 28mm scale, to try to get myself back into painting (was originally thinking Dropzone Commander). The hordes and hordes of guys that most games use have become a hindrance lately - with a newborn in the house to work a schedule around, plus general 30-something life going on, dozens of rank and file guys are a pain to paint. But I've always been interested in KoW/ WHFB style games of blocks of troops, but I'd rather have a game that is not as crunchy as 40K or WHFB, as much as those are my first loves. KoW actually looks like it has just the right amount of speed vs. crunch for me.
Would KoW work fine in 15mm scale? I assume all I would need to do is halve all the range and movement measurements. And because of the way that units of troops are handled, where it's the size of the formation that "really" matters, would a 15mm army set up like the picture below work suitably, (for this example as an orc army with allied goblins)?
The bases above are all 28mm cavalry-sized. From what I have read of the army lists and rules for KoW and how it doesn't require removal of models, it seems like I could use each above base as an analogy of the smallest KoW unit size (Troop), with individuals like army standards, heroes, and wizards based individually on something like a 20mmx20mm base. For example the unit of three wolves on the far left of the above pic would simply be a "troop" level unit of Gore Riders. The rest pictured would be Axers, Skulks, and allied Gobbo Sharpsticks. The large troll doesn't have a fitting profile in the free army list, but maybe in the hardcover rules that has expanded units for each army it would be a giant or a troll bruiser?
I figured any time I fielded a regiment or horde-strength unit in this 15mm setup, I would just have three bases of similar troops in a row, held together by a movement tray.
What's the opinion? The added bonus is that when adding a game to compete with the ones on my already groaning shelves (and that I have to likely paint both sides of to get a game in), an army like the one pictured above would set me back a whole 25 bucks, with additions costing 8-12 for 3-4 more bases of figures.
Dont even need to half the range if you just made the unit bases the same size you could keep everything else the same because model count doesn't matter.
Keep in mind those figures are 15mm, so my whole idea would be that a range in centimeters and the units being on a 20x50mm base ( at least for troops; with multiples put side by side for regiments, hordes, and monsters/chariots on something larger) my battlefields can be on a 3'x4' table. (I use two collapsing tables that size for normal 28mm scaled 4'x6' games).
I used to play whfb in 15mm just by moving to cm. I picked up a dwarf army at salute this year to play KoW in 10mm. Switching to cm at 10mm is closer to a match on model and movement scaling the same.
AegisGrimm wrote: Keep in mind those figures are 15mm, so my whole idea would be that a range in centimeters and the units being on a 20x50mm base ( at least for troops; with multiples put side by side for regiments, hordes, and monsters/chariots on something larger) my battlefields can be on a 3'x4' table. (I use two collapsing tables that size for normal 28mm scaled 4'x6' games).
As said above, there are two options others have already achieved success with
1) Drop the measurements to centimetres, and scale down the bases sizes by 50%, ie a 100x40mm infantry troop base becomes 50x20mm. That way you can play a normal points game on a coffee table, or use the usual 6x4 to play a mega point game
2) Just use tiny scale mans on the normal base sizes - you get to paint the 15/10/6mm scale mans (Microworlds are really popular on another forum I'm on) you want to paint and rank up, and because they're on the standard base sizes you can still play them against people rocking the usual 28mm stuff
3) Do the best of both worlds - base everything using option 1 so you can play on a coffee table against someone else also using the shrunk scale, and buy movement trays so you cando option 2 and put 4x 15mm troops together to make a 28mm troop (and the rest) when Gulliver comes to town
Unfortunately I'll never have to worry about playing KoW against anyone using 28mm models- the closest LGS to me is 25 miles away, and doesn't even have a single game table. Other than my wife, the nearest buddy I have that is interested at all in a mass combat miniatures game like WHFB/40K is a 45 minute drive away. So any models that will be hitting my table (both sides) will be bought and painted by me, for which 15mm scale with 3-4 men on a base representing a 'troop' paints up nice and fast.
Believe me, painting just a single force for personal use and then meeting up with a cool gaming group is a long-held dream of mine.
Using a smaller scale would work absolutely fine. So long as you keep the base sizes consistent within your chosen scale (Regiment=2 Troops deep, Horde=2Deep, 2 Wide) then you'll have no trouble!
If heroes and other single minis start looking odd, just add more minis! Your 'hero' becomes a General and his honour guard, your 'wizard' is actually a conclave of sorcerers, your army standard has men to protect it ect.
I've been looking over the rules and army lists, and one thing randomly stood out to me.
While I admittedly am very new to the game, does anyone else think the attacks on the Elven Hunters of the Wild seem way too high? Just a basic 10-man troop has 20 attacks, with a regiment only having 5 more than that? That seems like a ton at the bottom end, without much scaling at the top end, compared to all the other units.
AegisGrimm wrote: I've been looking over the rules and army lists, and one thing randomly stood out to me.
While I admittedly am very new to the game, does anyone else think the attacks on the Elven Hunters of the Wild seem way too high? Just a basic 10-man troop has 20 attacks, with a regiment only having 5 more than that? That seems like a ton at the bottom end, without much scaling at the top end, compared to all the other units.
Troop -> Regiment doesn't generally add too much statwise aside from nerve. Regiments add a ton of army composition benefits though.
It's a unit of angry fae. It looks like a lot, but the damage output is in line with similarly priced units.
It's normal for Regiments to have only 20% more attacks than Troops. The frontage doesn't increase, unlike the shift from Regiment to Horde, where the frontage doubles.
It's normal for Regiments to have only 20% more attacks than Troops. The frontage doesn't increase, unlike the shift from Regiment to Horde, where the frontage doubles.
To think of it in 'real' terms, it's only the front two ranks that can actually reach the enemy to fight, no matter how deep the unit is. What the guys on the 3rd+ rank contribute is more sheer bulk and mass to the unit, and more men to step up and fill the gaps as the ones actually in combat get cut down, both of which are represented by the larger Nerve stats, since they make the formation harder to break.
On the other hand, a Horde again only has the front ranks fighting, but there are twice as many guys in those ranks, hence the greater number of attacks. Meanwhile, the extra guys in the back contribute again to the greater Nerve.
AegisGrimm wrote: I think I was just surprised by the 20 attacks of the troop, compared to other units. I guess it's the balance of the cost and the loss of Elite?
AegisGrimm wrote: I think I was just surprised by the 20 attacks of the troop, compared to other units. I guess it's the balance of the cost and the loss of Elite?
AegisGrimm wrote: I think I was just surprised by the 20 attacks of the troop, compared to other units. I guess it's the balance of the cost and the loss of Elite?
Most sword and board troops have ten attacks. Most dual-weapon troops have twenty (see Orc Morax)
The KS versions are resin collectors editions and were $8 each. Ravenna is KS exclusive The Vampire and Funny Bones don't seem to be. IF they get a retail release they will probably be in metal like the Legendary Heroes. $8 KS minis tend to retail for $9.99
With the wound markers, you can probably get 8 out of the set (4 with dice, 4 with pegs) simply by mounting the pegs on to a single 20mm base and using the dice ones as normal.
The death jester looks good, glad I went for one. Hope the vampire gets a retail release, he's a great model. If I had seen the sculpt before the pledge manager I would have gone for one two.
I heartily recommend not using dice for wound markers.
The best solution for me, over a hundred plus games of KoW, is honestly Mantic's "splat" nerve markers. Big ones "10", medium ones "5" and a bevy of little "1".
Easy to read at a glance and I've never needed more than the two sets I bought.
I just can't do it. If I'm going to use markers, there is no way unmarked markers are going to be more convenient than numbered ones.
I get that some people will prefer them from an aesthetic point of view, but adding up 1's, 5's, and 10's just isn't faster, or more convenient, than reading the top number off of a D20.
The problem with D20's is that they roll.
To each his own, I guess - I just see too many FLGS tables getting bumped into to like the idea of dice for wound markers.
Believe me, Wehr, with my getting into playing this soon, there will definitely be a ModCube option . Just need some games under my belt to see what would make sense!
I'm considering the possibility of different colored tokens and/or cubes to make it fast to track wounds at a glance.
Some of the ideas I'm considering:
- Different color tokens on the same cube (yellow, purple, red) making it quick to know which face is a "10" (the 10 could be on the red face, for example)
- Numbering other than 1 - 6: you could have a cube that increments by 5, or one that is numbered 7-12, for example
- Different color cubes, again to make grabbing the one you want at a glance easiest
It would also be helpful to know what the highest useful number is likely to be, and if going in increments of 1 is needed. Here's a few example pics to illustrate what I'm talking about / the possibilities:
Spoiler:
Odds and Evens dice - the numbers could be anything:
Different color cubes:
I've been able to incorporate a ton of suggestions into the sets we've already made, so if there is a configuration that would work well for tracking wounds for KoW, I am all ears!
Mantic have been very supportive of the idea of our making a set compatible with Deadzone (they told us to post it on their forums when it's ready!), so I think they would welcome another option for wound tracking in KoW, too
Assuming that a low number of wounds/nerve damage or whatever was 1-6, a troublesome amount was 7-12 and a crazy amount was 12+, you could do cubes with 3 different colors. Green has faces 1-6, Yellow 7-12 and Red 12-18. Then sell a set of 4 Green, 3 Yellow and 1 Red. (Assuming 8 is the number of the set, and the number of the set is 8.) Then you could easily see what range of damage a unit was at by color.
Yeah, I could do that with different colored panels, too - having the cubes all the same color, but yellow tokens for 1-6, red tokens for 7-12, and purple tokens for 12-18.
Green feels wrong to me for damage, for some reason
Dice ll the way for me. If your worried about them moving around just have a base with a border on it. The plastic ones mantic are releasing look nice if a little pricey (you are paying for the stacking tokens) a couple of match sticks glued onto a spare base in a similar fashion has always worked for me.
adamsouza wrote: I just can't do it. If I'm going to use markers, there is no way unmarked markers are going to be more convenient than numbered ones.
I get that some people will prefer them from an aesthetic point of view, but adding up 1's, 5's, and 10's just isn't faster, or more convenient, than reading the top number off of a D20.
Ah, that pic does show unmarked; mine are marked with big ol fat 1, 5, 10 printed on them. Weird.
Dice of D10 or larger have an annoying habit of rolling around. D6's have an annoying habit of being rolled.
I do like the idea of big ass special looking dice with 1-6, 7-12, and 13-18 on them.
I'd suggest using the numbers 1-5 and then a 10. That way if you have three die out for a unit you can set them next to the unit and do similar to roman numbers by having a 10, a 5 and a 2 for a total of 17. Likewise you could do a 1-9, 10, 20 and 30 so then you could have a die with 1-5 and 10 on it, a die with 6-9, a 0 and 20 on it and then a set with 1-5 and a 30. I haven't played a game where more than 30 was needed and this would still let you get to 39.
Could well be. Information about them is fairly scarce on the website.
Either way, the point still stands - if you have hordes only routing on 23 and such, you will need more than one dial. And in that case, I just find them too big.
mightyspacepope wrote: Do we have any info or previews on Mantic's version of Lizardmen? I've tried a few searches but not having much success.
The only lizard men they are doing are Salamanders, which are a unit for both Forces of Nature and Abyssals, pictures of them should be easy enough to find now.
The Lizardman army list is a different thing, that's going to be beta tested shortly, alongside the human+hobbits, beastment and tomb kings ones already out for testing, but Mantic won't be making any more minis for them.
mightyspacepope wrote: Do we have any info or previews on Mantic's version of Lizardmen? I've tried a few searches but not having much success.
The only lizard men they are doing are Salamanders, which are a unit for both Forces of Nature and Abyssals, pictures of them should be easy enough to find now.
Info on lizardmen: The fluff was rejected, so theyre trying again.
As to salamanders in Abyssal armies, they were planed to be included, but it was decided not to do it. Since FoN are neutral, they can be allied anyway, so there wouldnt be much of a point in including them. Or thats what they said anyway.
Salamanders are no longer a unit for Abyssals as well. You could probably still proxy them if you want, though, using the stats for some other unit in the list.
mightyspacepope wrote: Do we have any info or previews on Mantic's version of Lizardmen? I've tried a few searches but not having much success.
The only lizard men they are doing are Salamanders, which are a unit for both Forces of Nature and Abyssals, pictures of them should be easy enough to find now.
Wait... Are salamanders in the abyssal army too?
They were going to be but were dropped from the list post ks
Yeah, the idea behind the "counts-as" lists is that these represent minor powers of Mantica that will never have dedicated minis lines. So they are meant to still fit into the overall fluff of the world, just in a small way.
Are there still plans for not-Skaven? I would be interested in that, because Island of Blood Elves Elves and Skaven would be 2 awesomely cheap+pretty armies to get into KoW.
...Also I can get nice looking 15mm skaven for my home project.
AegisGrimm wrote: Are there still plans for not-Skaven? I would be interested in that, because Island of Blood Elves Elves and Skaven would be 2 awesomely cheap+pretty armies to get into KoW.
...Also I can get nice looking 15mm skaven for my home project.
Yes they are called ratkin last I recalled they might have a beta list up somewhere
judgedoug wrote: I heartily recommend not using dice for wound markers.
I lost one of my sets of splat markers from the first KS, but regardless. A gakload of D10s have always worked just fine for us. We use the Mantic Dice from the first KS for disrupted counters.
They're in playtest, fluff-less form on the KoW forums right now. The ones on the website are the official races cut-down lists and also fluff-less, though there's obviously a lot of racial crossover with WHFB there as well.
Does anyone have the full list of factions being worked on for this purpose? Several friends have asked but I missed ratmen, so think I might be giving an incomplete picture of what's coming.
If I remember the spreadsheet, it's mainly Skaven, Beastmen, and Empire/Halflings (rather than generic humans) right now. Chaos and Lizardmen in the theory stages?
Dice work just fine for me. I use the dinky little DBX dice, they're too small to be satisfying to roll, so no loss there, and they're in nice, bright colors and easy to see.
Also, I thought I was losing my mind trying to find a 4 on one of the DBX dice when marking damage... and finally realized the damn thing has two 5s. So check all your DBX dice!
RiTides wrote: Does anyone have the full list of factions being worked on for this purpose? Several friends have asked but I missed ratmen, so think I might be giving an incomplete picture of what's coming.
Ratkin
League of Rhordia (Empire/Halflings)
The Brotherhood (Brettonian-themed)
Shattered Clans (evil god worshipping barbarians)
The Herd (Beastmen/Narnia)
Empire of Dust (desert-themed Undead)
Reptilians
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Wild speculation! So, with two slots still unknown...what's actually still missing from the WHFB lineup? GW Daemons? Abyssals don't cover everything, especially Nurgle, very well. But Daemons are the most IP-specific GW faction, so I'm not sure you can port them over properly without being more blatantly obvious than Mantic cares to be. In any case, that still leaves another slot free, unless they do two Daemon lists.
I like Ratmen as an idea for miniatures, but god GW's move from relatively cool looking little dudes to some kind of quasi rat-monkey hybrid (especially in the way their faces look) turned me off.
Currently I am looking to see if I can learn 3d sculpting and then I might make some BeastGoatmen instead. Have a look not too far off from how some of the Khazrad look in Diablo 3, which I think is a fantastic look for Goatmen. Not that I need them though as I have a gakload of miniatures I can use to make varying armies for this game system. Too many perhaps...
lord_blackfang wrote: Wild speculation! So, with two slots still unknown...what's actually still missing from the WHFB lineup? GW Daemons? Abyssals don't cover everything, especially Nurgle, very well. But Daemons are the most IP-specific GW faction, so I'm not sure you can port them over properly without being more blatantly obvious than Mantic cares to be. In any case, that still leaves another slot free, unless they do two Daemon lists.
Actually, GW demons are incredibly easy to "convert". Women with whips, red demons with swords, demons with partially molten bodies / holes in their bodies, big demon with wings and swords...etc.
lord_blackfang wrote: Wild speculation! So, with two slots still unknown...what's actually still missing from the WHFB lineup? GW Daemons? Abyssals don't cover everything, especially Nurgle, very well. But Daemons are the most IP-specific GW faction, so I'm not sure you can port them over properly without being more blatantly obvious than Mantic cares to be. In any case, that still leaves another slot free, unless they do two Daemon lists.
Actually, GW demons are incredibly easy to "convert". Women with whips, red demons with swords, demons with partially molten bodies / holes in their bodies, big demon with wings and swords...etc.
What about Blight Drones, Screamers, Juggers, Soul Grinders, Seeker Chariots, etc? They're pretty specific, and the fact that they don't appear in the Abyssal list makes me think Mantic's vision of their world doesn't include such daemons. Making a second daemonic list with them in it would be a rather strange implication that Mantica has two different Hells.
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Fenriswulf wrote: I like Ratmen as an idea for miniatures, but god GW's move from relatively cool looking little dudes to some kind of quasi rat-monkey hybrid (especially in the way their faces look) turned me off.
RiTides wrote: Does anyone have the full list of factions being worked on for this purpose? Several friends have asked but I missed ratmen, so think I might be giving an incomplete picture of what's coming.
Ratkin
League of Rhordia (Empire/Halflings)
The Brotherhood (Brettonian-themed)
Shattered Clans (evil god worshipping barbarians)
The Herd (Beastmen/Narnia)
Empire of Dust (desert-themed Undead)
Reptilians
TOP SECRET
TOP SECRET
I know I'm not the only one wishing for an oriental human list. Wether it winds up Chinese terracotta warrior army or Japanese samurai army I'd be down for both. Also could be fun to see a return of the Pygmy from days of yore. Also they could do a savannah themed lion army similar to what Alkemy put out.
What about Blight Drones, Screamers, Juggers, Soul Grinders, Seeker Chariots, etc? They're pretty specific, and the fact that they don't appear in the Abyssal list makes me think Mantic's vision of their world doesn't include such daemons. Making a second daemonic list with them in it would be a rather strange implication that Mantica has two different Hells.
Giant fly demons, demons with hole instead of head, demon on Chariot...etc.
Theophony wrote: I know I'm not the only one wishing for an oriental human list. Wether it winds up Chinese terracotta warrior army or Japanese samurai army I'd be down for both. Also could be fun to see a return of the Pygmy from days of yore. Also they could do a savannah themed lion army similar to what Alkemy put out.
You can already do that with the Kingdoms of Men list though; samurai as foot guard with two handed weapons, ashigaru with swords as militia mob, naginatas as pikes/heavy pikes, yaris as spear phalanx, bows as bowmen, crossbows as crossbowmen, and matchlock muskets as arquebusiers.
Then mounted samurai as knights, mounted ashigaru with bows as scouts, swords as sergeants.
Ronin go nicely as berserkers.
Feudal Japan wasn't really big on shield walls, chariots, siege weapons or monsters, so you'd have to be creative about that, but otherwise the bones are very much already in place, that's what the Kingdoms of Men list is designed to do.
Theophony wrote: I know I'm not the only one wishing for an oriental human list. Wether it winds up Chinese terracotta warrior army or Japanese samurai army I'd be down for both. Also could be fun to see a return of the Pygmy from days of yore. Also they could do a savannah themed lion army similar to what Alkemy put out.
I wrote up a not-chaos (using the four directional deities) army as an Asian human faction idea a few years ago and sent it off to Ronnie.
Theophony wrote: I know I'm not the only one wishing for an oriental human list. Wether it winds up Chinese terracotta warrior army or Japanese samurai army I'd be down for both. Also could be fun to see a return of the Pygmy from days of yore. Also they could do a savannah themed lion army similar to what Alkemy put out.
You can already do that with the Kingdoms of Men list though; samurai as foot guard with two handed weapons, ashigaru with swords as militia mob, naginatas as pikes/heavy pikes, yaris as spear phalanx, bows as bowmen, crossbows as crossbowmen, and matchlock muskets as arquebusiers.
Then mounted samurai as knights, mounted ashigaru with bows as scouts, swords as sergeants.
Ronin go nicely as berserkers.
Feudal Japan wasn't really big on shield walls, chariots, siege weapons or monsters, so you'd have to be creative about that, but otherwise the bones are very much already in place, that's what the Kingdoms of Men list is designed to do.
This is true. A lot of KoM armies I see on the net are Japanese-inspired, in fact. I think second to Perry WotR miniatures, the next most common miniatures to use for KoM are samurai miniatures.
Theophony wrote: I know I'm not the only one wishing for an oriental human list. Wether it winds up Chinese terracotta warrior army or Japanese samurai army I'd be down for both. Also could be fun to see a return of the Pygmy from days of yore. Also they could do a savannah themed lion army similar to what Alkemy put out.
You can already do that with the Kingdoms of Men list though; samurai as foot guard with two handed weapons, ashigaru with swords as militia mob, naginatas as pikes/heavy pikes, yaris as spear phalanx, bows as bowmen, crossbows as crossbowmen, and matchlock muskets as arquebusiers.
Then mounted samurai as knights, mounted ashigaru with bows as scouts, swords as sergeants.
Ronin go nicely as berserkers.
Feudal Japan wasn't really big on shield walls, chariots, siege weapons or monsters, so you'd have to be creative about that, but otherwise the bones are very much already in place, that's what the Kingdoms of Men list is designed to do.
This is true. A lot of KoM armies I see on the net are Japanese-inspired, in fact. I think second to Perry WotR miniatures, the next most common miniatures to use for KoM are samurai miniatures.
Heh, I've been working on a Japanese styled Terracotta army using the basic Undead list. I'm not really sure what a specifically Chinese/Japanese army would really add that you cannot already do.
Hopefully the "Top Secret" armies are something relatively new.
I was really just looking at old GW armies that never really took off, so Nippon and Pygmy just seamed obscure enough. They could do fantasy Zoats. They have centaurs in Forces of Nature so I guess those are covered. Araby and Norse are somewhat covered already too. Can't remember the swamp guys from fantasy that had one eye and the club like tail.
Yeah I was thinking of the Celtos ones, but I am not a huge fan of the aesthetic they have going on (I was a bit sad that they made the Fomorians just the "orc and goblin" faction with a few bits slapped on).
I'd prefer something along the lines of the GW River Trolls but less cartoony, I guess.
The fluff in the rule book leaves open a lot of space for eastern empires and other nonEuropean armies. I know from a game play perspective it probably wouldn't add anything new, but I would love it if they actually wrote some fluff for a far off kingdom named Kitai, for example.
And I'm not just saying that because I'm disappointed with GW for blowing up the Old World before we even got to see half of it.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The fluff in the rule book leaves open a lot of space for eastern empires and other nonEuropean armies. I know from a game play perspective it probably wouldn't add anything new, but I would love it if they actually wrote some fluff for a far off kingdom named Kitai, for example.
And I'm not just saying that because I'm disappointed with GW for blowing up the Old World before we even got to see half of it.
A lot of it was explored in WFRP1, 2, and 3. Most of the best fluff is hidden away in random sourcebooks.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: The fluff in the rule book leaves open a lot of space for eastern empires and other nonEuropean armies. I know from a game play perspective it probably wouldn't add anything new, but I would love it if they actually wrote some fluff for a far off kingdom named Kitai, for example.
And I'm not just saying that because I'm disappointed with GW for blowing up the Old World before we even got to see half of it.
A lot of it was explored in WFRP1, 2, and 3. Most of the best fluff is hidden away in random sourcebooks.
Do they have fluff on Cathay, Ind and Nippon? How about the warp gate at the South Pole? I would love to read about the WH world take on those places.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Do they have fluff on Cathay, Ind and Nippon? How about the warp gate at the South Pole? I would love to read about the WH world take on those places.
I've got a lot of the old FFG WHFRP supplements, but never seen anything about Cathay et al.. I never bought the careers book because I don't actually play the game, and it sounded like that book was more purely crunch than most of the others. The supplements on Brettonia, Kislev, and the Skaven all seem ridiculously expensive these days, so I don't have those, either.
I think the Dreadfleet novella gave me all the Sartosa I'll ever need.
I know Mantic's Mantica is still pretty new, but I would love to see similar expansion on the lore, especially if it isn't just expanded into more European history expys.
The one part of the lore I'm just not warming up to is Mhorgoth. They obviously are sticking with him as the big necromancy R bad guy, but I just find him bland.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit: they should totally create a demon named Otto Krecht with the power to alter the text any scroll or book that mentions him.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: Tyrant Blaine on goofy dinosaur...I had such high hopes for this miniature but the face on the beast just lets it down so much:
I'll need to see some more pics/angles but...it doesn't look bad to me!
NTRabbit wrote: Looks like too many people complained, they've switched back to individual project updates
Well, I got 4 emails so they're still doing the weekly update, it's just that the update only contains information relevant to that kickstarter rather than all 4 being a copy+paste of everything happening in all kickstarters.
Interesting to know that while I will get my DBX wave 3 last, I should be one of the first to get KoW wave 1, in about a week.
Oh, there is a knee-high devil girl top right and an imp halfway down the left edge. Now they just need to do the equivalent on the Elohi sprue someday, and we'll be able to model angel&devil on the shoulders of our generals.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: That sprue looks like a huge step forward for Mantic. As a kit ashes and converter, I am very excited about all the options represented.
It looks rather like the original undead skeleton ones, before they started to try and do them on the cheap.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: That sprue looks like a huge step forward for Mantic. As a kit ashes and converter, I am very excited about all the options represented.
It looks rather like the original undead skeleton ones, before they started to try and do them on the cheap.
No, the Succubi torsoes and legs are separate pieces, and it looks like none of the arms or heads come already attached to the torsoes, much less half of them, so it. Looks like a much better kit to me. Instead of fantasy creatures in historical scale in historical poses on historical style sprues, the Succubi look like true fantasy plastics.
Alex C wrote: So my Frenzy and Ultimate Tyrant will all arrive at once?
Postman's gonna need back surgery...
Don't worry I'll help him unload it right into the trunk of my car. I'll just tell him were bidding it from your wife. If he's been a postal worker for any length of time he'll understand.
Personally I think they should have stuck with the same base sizes as KoW and accepted that some models would have gaps around them in their squares - facing would still have been totally clear.
I can only echo the comments about the base size. That's the most disappointing thing about this release for me- I'm either going to have to rebase them, which is a pain in the arse and means I miss out on the cool dungeon bases, or cut the bases down to size, which is also a pain in the arse.
I can only echo the comments about the base size. That's the most disappointing thing about this release for me- I'm either going to have to rebase them, which is a pain in the arse and means I miss out on the cool dungeon bases, or cut the bases down to size, which is also a pain in the arse.
Ah well!
Rebasing should be easy, the model and base are separate pieces attached by a single peg. Clip or cut at that point and the mini comes off.
They designed the minis with board game usage as the main priority, which makes sense, really considering the game is supposed to be a modern version of heroquest.
Retailing at £50 will make the game very popular, I have seen a lot of other dungeon crawlers retail at full RRP of £70-80 with fewer minis in the box. I was really interested in Mice and Mystics until playing a game and realizing the need to proxy minis often due to there not being enough included in the box.
What are those things in the back, white skin, orange armor or something? Are they armored werewolves, salamanders, or something new? Dunno how they'd hold up up close, but from that distance, they look pretty cool?
Hoping caylentor's right about looking them good up close, but wrong about being dungeon saga instead of hard plastic salamanders--if they're the salamanders, I've got a set coming from the kickstarter, only thing other than the rules I ordered...
Vejut wrote: Hoping caylentor's right about looking them good up close, but wrong about being dungeon saga instead of hard plastic salamanders--if they're the salamanders, I've got a set coming from the kickstarter, only thing other than the rules I ordered...
He's wrong about them being for Dungeon Saga. They are the Salamanders for Kings of War (hence why they're on the KoW shelf and don't have DS bases). The only model in the Dungeon Saga Tyrant of Halpi expansion is the big Dragon.
I want better shots of those Salamanders. Might end up picking up some if they look as good as I think they do. The market needs more reptilians in hard plastic! Like the Naiads too!
This follows on from the fact that it's been a long running joke from GW in the 1980s. Mantic just saw the opportunity to got "Smeg it, let's make fishmen!"
I love that bones army Nice work! I may be stealing one or more of those units
Say, where do we check which address our KoW shipment will be going to? I'm afraid I'm one of those backed DBX+KoW so shipping *soon* people, but I've just moved. KoW was through the Mantic Digital thing right? I guess that means I should go there then?
Is that roughly the same size as a Bones Minotaur Lord or Balor Demon? Because I suspect it will be about 4x the price.
But other than obvious reasons not to buy it, I like it. The face is definitely going to be an issue for a lot of people with its Godzilla 1998 jaw and underbite. It's possible that Abyssals don't need to eat, though, so whatever. I like the pose, the horns, and the slightly cartoony body shape and texture.
The wings are getting another pass from the sculptor, right?
I'm not terribly interested in the abyssals, but overall I like the direction they've taken. Big dude seems pretty on target for the style of the smaller stuff. May have to get some eventually (well, I mean I'll have whatever comes in DS anyway).
I want to like that big guy, but the head just ruins it for me. But it looks like they listened when people said they didn't like the Teeny Leg Syndrome.
That is unbelievably bad. What a mess of sloppy texture, hacky musculature on a half assed frame.
Can not believe the sort of nonsense they are allowed to release as one of the biggest gaming companies in the world.
Reduce the lowere jaw length, maybe place the head a tad higher and a different wing position and I'll really like it. So glad they didn't go the small leg route with it!
Maybe he was sculpted at the same magnification as the other abyssals. Looking at the armored dudes in the bottom right, it looks like the Greater Abyssal is all blown up and baloony, the way Kaladrax looks since he was tooled at the wrong scale but more so. For example, his bikini briefs are large enough to be an entire mini on their own, but it looks like the sculptor just used an oversized acorn and called it done.
Still, I like the bold new direction Mantic is going, with legs that could support his weight and a head with a cranium. Pretty soon, they'll be back up to their pre kickstarter level of quality!
On it's own I would give it a 'meh' but I like it as part of the Abyssal line. They have a certain retro-cartoon charm to them that appeals to me, but I can see why a decent number of people don't like it.
Maybe a headwap is needed. He's aight, but just aight. My problem with him is he's just aight for something so big (and something that big will be the centerpiece of your army, if you want it or not).
Also, take note of those smaller minis! They look totally rad, actually. WHAT ARE THEY
I'll agree with the consensus view that it's not a bad extension of their Abyssals line, but not really a competitive player in the greater demon marketplace.
heartserenade wrote: Maybe a headwap is needed. He's aight, but just aight. My problem with him is he's just aight for something so big (and something that big will be the centerpiece of your army, if you want it or not).
Also, take note of those smaller minis! They look totally rad, actually. WHAT ARE THEY
The one on the left is something made from the Lower Abyssal sprue, I think maybe an Abyssal Harbinger, the ones on the right are two different builds of an Abyssal Champion
endtransmission wrote: I'm with the "I wanted the map" crowd. I backed KoW for the fluff and map to use in Dungeon Saga campaigns more than anything else :(
Just so we're clear, and I'm not defending what happened at all, the map is on a 2-page spread in the rulebook, so although you won't get it in the format you wanted/were promised, you will still have a copy of the map.
endtransmission wrote: I'm with the "I wanted the map" crowd. I backed KoW for the fluff and map to use in Dungeon Saga campaigns more than anything else :(
Just so we're clear, and I'm not defending what happened at all, the map is on a 2-page spread in the rulebook, so although you won't get it in the format you wanted/were promised, you will still have a copy of the map.
Which makes their reasoning for not making the poster map even more nonsensical, if the "outdated" map is still going to be in the rulebook.
Wargames Illustrated added 5 new photos.
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SOMETHING A LITTLE DIFFERENT...
A few photographs from one of our forthcoming Rules Showcase articles. Many, many thanks to the folks at Mantic Games (www.manticgames.com) for letting us visit during a busy period of Kickstarter pledge fulfillment!
plastictrees wrote: That is unbelievably bad. What a mess of sloppy texture, hacky musculature on a half assed frame.
Can not believe the sort of nonsense they are allowed to release as one of the biggest gaming companies in the world.
Just sayin'
And that thing has only been removed in the last couple of weeks or so. It was there last time I looked for it, very recently.
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Alex C wrote: Point is that it's yet another case of Mantic promising one thing and then changing their mind after they have our money.
I love the Mantic games and the staff seem great, but this gak just keeps on happening.
A freebie add-on like that is the least of my concerns. Unless you're saying that a map was one of the key reasons you backed at $50+
I mean, I'm critical of Mantic when I think it's warranted, but this is a far cry from the Trolls or the Men at Arms, or changing restic to metal. (or vice versa).
plastictrees wrote: That is unbelievably bad. What a mess of sloppy texture, hacky musculature on a half assed frame.
Can not believe the sort of nonsense they are allowed to release as one of the biggest gaming companies in the world.
Mantic are nowhere near the biggest gaming company in the world, they are not even the biggest wargaming company in the city.
The map wasn't why I backed, but I would much prefer the map to an art print.
Several people have said that the map was a key factor in their pledge though. I don't think it's fair to dismiss it as just a "freebie add on". To these folks, it was a thing they gave Mantic money to produce and was an important item to them.
Like I said, I love their games, but Mantic keeps altering the deal from what was promised during the funding period and it's getting tiring...
MasterSlowPoke wrote: The current Mantica map is pure rubbish, consider it a favor they picked something else to print.
Whatever the quality, it was a thing promised during funding that they decided not to make.
Just like the adventure books in Dungeon Saga that I pledged for. I wanted multiple copies to keep on the "borrow a book" shelf in my wife's classroom. Ended up buying dice sets because Mantic decided not to make print versions in the end.
It's just irritating when they alter the deal. I pray they do not alter it further...
It's not that they decided not to include a print though. They probably were going to send the intern the print shoppe or whatever they call it in the UK and someone probably asked "hey aren't we changing this map in like 2 months anyway" and they changed the file.
plastictrees wrote: That is unbelievably bad. What a mess of sloppy texture, hacky musculature on a half assed frame.
Can not believe the sort of nonsense they are allowed to release as one of the biggest gaming companies in the world.
Just sayin'.
Other people's garbage does not excuse your own. That mini has been mocked for years and dragged out at every opportunity. Look how many people are happily swallowing this load and claiming it fits the style of the army. If a startup previewed this mini for a KS it would be told to go back to. The drawing board and to hire professional sculptors.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: The current Mantica map is pure rubbish, consider it a favor they picked something else to print.
Whatever the quality, it was a thing promised during funding that they decided not to make.
Just like the adventure books in Dungeon Saga that I pledged for. I wanted multiple copies to keep on the "borrow a book" shelf in my wife's classroom. Ended up buying dice sets because Mantic decided not to make print versions in the end.
It's just irritating when they alter the deal. I pray they do not alter it further...
I have to agree here. The reneging of printed adventure books really upset me. They were the main thing I was pledging for. In the end, I used those funds to get a plastic Valandor and a Blaine, but what I really wanted were some adventure books. Even if Mantic had lost some money bringing them to print on KS funds, those books would have provided them with a lot of opportunity to reach new markets and bring new people to Mantica.
Ps: have we seen any pictures of how Valndor turned out?
I'm honestly pretty happy with that mini because it happens to align with my interests in what a Valandor should be. However, I am surprised at how soft the detail is, especially on his face and hands. Looks like he was carved from soap, and not the good soap, either, but like 1hour motel soap. The detail on his armor reminds me a lot of Confrontation: AoR, but it seems a little chintzy for a wizard-warrior Moses Jesus.
Automatically Appended Next Post: He looks kind of like a Marvel Movie Simon Belmont printed at low resolution. Maybe that's why I'm so happy with the end result.
plastictrees wrote: Look how many people are happily swallowing this load and claiming it fits the style of the army.
Looks like you are confusing "I don't like this miniature" with "this miniature is bad". If the vast majority of people think a miniature is bad then yes, that's probably true. That does not seem to be the case. Just accept that you don't like it, others do, and move on. Besides, the Razorgor is hardly the only GW kit with questionable design. The Slaughterbrute/Vortex Beast monster kit comes to mind.
Love that spear tip. Depending on how much of the softness is just the Barbara Walters filter, I may have to buy some more Valandors to make some Stormcast Eternal something-or-others. Also, Reaper's weapons of virtue sprue will do wonders for Valandor.
Assuming one can still get plastic Valandors for reasonable prices in the not too distant future.
That looks like unmistakably soft detail, imo - look at the hands.
Still, my gaming group is gearing up for KoW and we'll just continue to keep an eye on Mantic models - ones that are worth buying I will (like the Abyssal Golems) and ones that aren't, I'll just ignore and use other models for (that is a really good decision on their part to get people playing their game).
Is that greater demon the same size as an LOTR Balrog? I might just buy a balrog if I'm going to end up trying to salvage that demon with a lot of sculpting anyway.
plastictrees wrote: Look how many people are happily swallowing this load and claiming it fits the style of the army.
Looks like you are confusing "I don't like this miniature" with "this miniature is bad". If the vast majority of people think a miniature is bad then yes, that's probably true. That does not seem to be the case. Just accept that you don't like it, others do, and move on. Besides, the Razorgor is hardly the only GW kit with questionable design. The Slaughterbrute/Vortex Beast monster kit comes to mind.
Nope. This isn`t fine art. Obviously there are subjective elements but ultimately this is a craft and that mini is an example of a very poor attempt at the craft of mini sculpting.
Why is GW also producing dubious miniatures always brought up as a counter argument? If we, as a community, accept garbage from miniature companies we will continue to receive garbage.
That paladin type above is another great example. That's a production plastic/resin? That would be shot down as a pre-production test print by companies with any sort of qc standards, and would lose any running KS a ton of backers.
Anyway, this isn't a new conversation. Mantic will continue to be the manic depressive of sculpt quality until they get someone with integrity running their design department or until people stop paying up front for a mixed bag of awesome and garbage.
plastictrees wrote: Look how many people are happily swallowing this load and claiming it fits the style of the army.
Looks like you are confusing "I don't like this miniature" with "this miniature is bad". If the vast majority of people think a miniature is bad then yes, that's probably true. That does not seem to be the case. Just accept that you don't like it, others do, and move on. Besides, the Razorgor is hardly the only GW kit with questionable design. The Slaughterbrute/Vortex Beast monster kit comes to mind.
Nope. This isn`t fine art. Obviously there are subjective elements but ultimately this is a craft and that mini is an example of a very poor attempt at the craft of mini sculpting.
Why is GW also producing dubious miniatures always brought up as a counter argument? If we, as a community, accept garbage from miniature companies we will continue to receive garbage.
That paladin type above is another great example. That's a production plastic/resin? That would be shot down as a pre-production test print by companies with any sort of qc standards, and would lose any running KS a ton of backers.
Anyway, this isn't a new conversation. Mantic will continue to be the manic depressive of sculpt quality until they get someone with integrity running their design department or until people stop paying up front for a mixed bag of awesome and garbage.
I don't think me or anyone else tried to present it as 'fine art' so that's hardly a counterpoint. You have no basis for your claim beyond simply not liking it yourself. The fact that GW made terrible models while still being the biggest company in the industry is simply a counterpoint to your claimed disbelief that a company is "allowed" to produce. We are saying "its really not all that uncommon, get over it and move on." And on that latter note, I will be moving on.
I agree, however, that the paladin is terrible. Decent idea, but if the details are actually that soft it's simply unacceptable in my eyes.
Other people's garbage does not excuse your own. That mini has been mocked for years and dragged out at every opportunity. Look how many people are happily swallowing this load and claiming it fits the style of the army. If a startup previewed this mini for a KS it would be told to go back to. The drawing board and to hire professional sculptors.
Honestly, while I'm not sure if I like it, I don't hate it. It's better than a lot of what they've put out in the past. It does seem like a figures that - as someone else suggested - was rendered at the same size as the others and then printed out at 10x the size.
Mantic are nowhere near the biggest gaming company in the world, they are not even the biggest wargaming company in the city.
ONE of.
I'm not sure they even qualify as that, to tell you the truth. They seem 3rd or 4th tier. Obviously Wizards and Wizkids and GW are top-tier. Warlord, Battlefront, etc would be second-tier and Mantic, CMoN, etc would probably be third-tier.
Do CMoN actually produce anything? I wouldn't even put them in that category. If anything they are just a publisher aren't they? (I may of course be totally wrong)
Other people's garbage does not excuse your own. That mini has been mocked for years and dragged out at every opportunity. Look how many people are happily swallowing this load and claiming it fits the style of the army. If a startup previewed this mini for a KS it would be told to go back to. The drawing board and to hire professional sculptors.
Honestly, while I'm not sure if I like it, I don't hate it. It's better than a lot of what they've put out in the past. It does seem like a figures that - as someone else suggested - was rendered at the same size as the others and then printed out at 10x the size.
Mantic are nowhere near the biggest gaming company in the world, they are not even the biggest wargaming company in the city.
ONE of.
I'm not sure they even qualify as that, to tell you the truth. They seem 3rd or 4th tier. Obviously Wizards and Wizkids and GW are top-tier. Warlord, Battlefront, etc would be second-tier and Mantic, CMoN, etc would probably be third-tier.
He didn't say wargaming he said gaming. They are a small company, although not tiny in an industry full of small and tiny companies.
overtyrant wrote: Do CMoN actually produce anything? I wouldn't even put them in that category. If anything they are just a publisher aren't they? (I may of course be totally wrong)
CMON produce Dark Age which is a fully fledged tabletop game along with all their publishing partnerships
overtyrant wrote: Do CMoN actually produce anything? I wouldn't even put them in that category. If anything they are just a publisher aren't they? (I may of course be totally wrong)
CMON produce Dark Age which is a fully fledged tabletop game along with all their publishing partnerships
I completely forgot about Dark Age as it's been sooooo long since I played it lol! I probably wouldn't count the publishing partnerships as they don't make them. In that light I would actually put Mantic on a rung above CMoN. And I've completely forgot what the point of this was!
Rather the art than the map, but I can see why people would be annoyed about it. If that Valandor truly is the production mini and not someone's half eaten jelly baby then that is just awful. Really awful.
I really do not like the Greater Abyssal miniature for so many reasons, but what I do like about Mantic and KoW is their allowance of alternative miniatures....hence when I get around to looking at starting an Abyssal army Meirce will feature heavily.
overtyrant wrote: Do CMoN actually produce anything? I wouldn't even put them in that category. If anything they are just a publisher aren't they? (I may of course be totally wrong)
CMON produce Dark Age which is a fully fledged tabletop game along with all their publishing partnerships
I completely forgot about Dark Age as it's been sooooo long since I played it lol! I probably wouldn't count the publishing partnerships as they don't make them. In that light I would actually put Mantic on a rung above CMoN. And I've completely forgot what the point of this was!
Comparing the quality of the miniatures and the actual game, I'd put CMON and Dark Age several rungs above Mantic.
I'm not sure they even qualify as that, to tell you the truth. They seem 3rd or 4th tier. Obviously Wizards and Wizkids and GW are top-tier. Warlord, Battlefront, etc would be second-tier and Mantic, CMoN, etc would probably be third-tier.
He didn't say wargaming he said gaming. They are a small company, although not tiny in an industry full of small and tiny companies.
Yes. He did say gaming. That's why I talked about Wizards and Wizkids, and didn't just talk about wargaming companies. I did forget FFG because someone came to the door, but Mantic would be 3rd tier at best. Well ahead of all of the 1 and 2-man operations, but well below a lot of the established others.
heartserenade wrote: Is that greater demon the same size as an LOTR Balrog? I might just buy a balrog if I'm going to end up trying to salvage that demon with a lot of sculpting anyway.
Get the Balrog. It's a beautiful plastic kit and worth every penny (like the Winged Nazgul).
heartserenade wrote: Is that greater demon the same size as an LOTR Balrog? I might just buy a balrog if I'm going to end up trying to salvage that demon with a lot of sculpting anyway.
Get the Balrog. It's a beautiful plastic kit and worth every penny (like the Winged Nazgul).
Don't know about that Valondor sculpt, as they showed a fully painted up one and it looked a lot sharper. Whether that's because it's a clean paint job or whether it's a different model, I don't know, but it looks completely fine all painted up.
Vampire infantry and knights look good, but with that paint job its really hard to make out details on the armor. They could actually look worse than they seem, or better. Time will tell, I suppose.
Oh man, that book sounds great - will definitely be picking it up. Didn't realize it would be a full stand-alone book (rather than just like a PDF) so very stoked about that (as is our group who are all planning armies now - it begins!).
Cool that the book will get a physical release. From the way things sounds, it makes me wonder if Mantic will ever consider making their own rats and lizards at some future point in time.
Trying to figure out some of the Skaven equivalents though.
I don't have large blocks of rat infantry painted, but I do have most of the larger war machines/ monstrous stuff painted.
Can I get away with blocks of large infantry? Do they count as regular infantry towards hero/ warmachine selection? Thinking of putting a few units of Wolfen/ Warpwolves/ Skorza as Brutes to flesh out my Rat Ogre ranks.
Gotta figure out where to put an End Times Thanqoul as well. Demonspawn?
Anyone have a good source for giant rat mounts? Wouldn't mind some rat cavalry.
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Cool that the book will get a physical release. From the way things sounds, it makes me wonder if Mantic will ever consider making their own rats and lizards at some future point in time.
well the salamanders are coming out with the nature army.
Nope. This isn`t fine art. Obviously there are subjective elements but ultimately this is a craft and that mini is an example of a very poor attempt at the craft of mini sculpting.
Why is GW also producing dubious miniatures always brought up as a counter argument? If we, as a community, accept garbage from miniature companies we will continue to receive garbage.
Your outrage is well out of proportion.
I brought up Pumbagor in response to your over the top question of "how one of the biggest game companies can be allowed to release it". Key sections there being "how can one of the biggest" - counterpoint being that the actual biggest does just as bad or worse - and if GW does it it then your argument based around company size is a flawed one.
Second key point being "allowed". Well that's an easy one. Unlike Leonardo DiCaprio, you're not the King of the World. Therefore, Mantic, GW, anyone else can release whatever they want. If they release gak, then far fewer people will buy it. That's called the free market or the power of the consumer. If you'd pledged for it and that's what they released, I can understand being upset ($25, isn't it?) but those are the risks with backing models sight-unseen in a KS, and Mantic has already taught me (and I thought, most of us) our lessons there with the Men At Arms, Trolls and so forth.
I don't think that Demon is awesome, but it's objectively not completely terrible either. If it's Greater Daemon sized for $25, then.... well it's okay as is. and it looks salvageable into something quite decent if someone was willing to put in the extra work.
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NinthMusketeer wrote: Vampire infantry and knights look good, but with that paint job its really hard to make out details on the armor. They could actually look worse than they seem, or better. Time will tell, I suppose.
Agreed. Those are pretty sub-par paintjobs to show off the models. They'd be ok as "alternate schemes" but not the main one that's used to sell the models.
$25 retail or through kickstarter? I was assuming it would cost as much as the GOG. For $40, in a market with $12ish Bones greater demons, Mantic's minis need to be better than not bad.
$25 in the KS. No idea on the retail price, but good point - it won't compare well at retail to other options. But then there's that whole "power of the marketplace" thing, innit?
wrong door mate, 100% wrong door there man. 
