Matt.Kingsley wrote: I haven't seen the rule text, but if it states GRETCHIN then they can't benefit from Kulturz.
If it just says Gretchin models then Mek Gunz (and probably Killa Kanz) are safe.
However given how the reviews have been talking about the rule, I assume it's based on the keyword.
The GMG guys were a bit more clear on this, the codex basically says that stratagems can only target GRETCHIN units when they explicitly say so, with them using kanz as an example. If the kultur thing works the same, it might be worded similar.
Salt donkey wrote: Well if anyone was wondering if certain people will never truly be satisfied with the great things they get, this thread proves it. While I can understand the disappointment some have with certain units, its pretty clear the ork codex as a whole is fantastic. Stuff like a tractor kannon mek guns, deff dreads, boyz, grots, storm boyz, killa kanz, deff rolla battlewagons, deff killa wartrikes, etc, etc are all fantastic options. For those complaining about point increases, remember that all those units could nearly make it top tables despite lacking kultures, stratagem support, and other new special rules. If they stayed where they where at points wise, I guarantee people would have been demanding point increases for them by the time chapter approved arrived. To me most of the naysayers are just mad that their pet units stayed bad or appears 'worse' on the surface. Either that or they just are willfully ignoring the impact that kultures, stratagems, rule changes, and point decreases on previously poor units will have on the army because they feel entitled to blatantly OP rules. Being disappointed that stuff like the Stompa are clearly still bad is fine. Decrying the whole codex as being bad because it isn't obviously better than the most OP codex in the game right is basically trolling.
For traktor guns you are already planning to cheat. Deff dreads only works with DS. Boyz took nerf. Stormboyz took nerf. Killa kans got price decrease which helps but still soft and no klan culture.
The codex will be sub average aiming for bottom parts in tournaments. Overall power level didn't change. Indeed when you compare to index vs index days orks got WEAKER. Only thing that happened is GW got changed 1 sub-optimal build into another forcing buying new models.
And orks only got to top tables if they delibarately SLOW PLAYED 2-3 turn games. Yeah if you rewrite game and don't play same game you can do better. Gee. Play 5+ turns like scenarios tell you and you lose.
But yeah whatever. Cheaters word doesn't count much anyway
a list i hope to try when i have the codex =batalion 5cp=(klan?) bigmek/sag (80) wierdboy (62) grotsx10x10x10 (90) mekgun (traktor kannon) x6 (270) mekgun (traktor kannon) x4 (180) =speerhead 1cp=(evilsunz) wierdboy (62) gorkanaut (311) morkanaut/kff (310) defdred(dreddsaw/dreddklaw/x2bigshoota) x3 (270) meganob (pk,kustshoota)x10 (350) =1985pts total
thats enough cp to tellyport the gorkanaut/morkanaut(for kff support)/defdredds (total of 891pts so i can reserve them all) the weirdboyz buff the meganobz with warpath and then dajump them when the other units come out of tellyport. they are all evilsunz to help with a massive turn2 charge. didnt know what klan to pick for the battalion (since its a high chance the mekgunz might not get to use the kulture), but maybe snakebite so that a warlord can take the trait to make grots feerless? im taking traktor cannons becasue they were cheaper and autohit and do better dmg against fly units. not sure what warlord trait ill use or what relics, but this fits a dreddmob with some shooting. might be competitive if it works with the codex rules. what do you guys think?
Salt donkey wrote: Well if anyone was wondering if certain people will never truly be satisfied with the great things they get, this thread proves it. While I can understand the disappointment some have with certain units, its pretty clear the ork codex as a whole is fantastic. Stuff like a tractor kannon mek guns, deff dreads, boyz, grots, storm boyz, killa kanz, deff rolla battlewagons, deff killa wartrikes, etc, etc are all fantastic options. For those complaining about point increases, remember that all those units could nearly make it top tables despite lacking kultures, stratagem support, and other new special rules. If they stayed where they where at points wise, I guarantee people would have been demanding point increases for them by the time chapter approved arrived. To me most of the naysayers are just mad that their pet units stayed bad or appears 'worse' on the surface. Either that or they just are willfully ignoring the impact that kultures, stratagems, rule changes, and point decreases on previously poor units will have on the army because they feel entitled to blatantly OP rules. Being disappointed that stuff like the Stompa are clearly still bad is fine. Decrying the whole codex as being bad because it isn't obviously better than the most OP codex in the game right is basically trolling.
For traktor guns you are already planning to cheat. Deff dreads only works with DS. Boyz took nerf. Stormboyz took nerf. Killa kans got price decrease which helps but still soft and no klan culture.
The codex will be sub average aiming for bottom parts in tournaments. Overall power level didn't change. Indeed when you compare to index vs index days orks got WEAKER. Only thing that happened is GW got changed 1 sub-optimal build into another forcing buying new models.
And orks only got to top tables if they delibarately SLOW PLAYED 2-3 turn games. Yeah if you rewrite game and don't play same game you can do better. Gee. Play 5+ turns like scenarios tell you and you lose.
But yeah whatever. Cheaters word doesn't count much anyway
Ok mate whatever you say. Not entirely sure how your so certain that stuff like boyz and stormboyz will be worse from index to codex (I guess stuff like options between essentially +2 to movement, 6+++, and 6++ with tons of free re-rolls as well as stratagem support and better rules are just not worth a1 point per model increase and a larger base size). You're also ignoring all the other units which dropped in points. While it may not matter for some, do you honestly expect that every single bad index unit will still stay bad in the codex? You remind me of the eldar players who called their codex trash when it was first revealed. Just because the Ork codex isnt exactly what you wanted doesn't mean it's bad.
My prediction is that Orks to be a top tier army that will be heavily played by the time LVO rolls around. It will be interesting to see which one of us is right
Internal balance?
External balance?
Competitive-ness?
Number of viable builds?
Orks will be competitive - Tellyporta and Evil Suns are what is holding together. But; it won’t be fun, in that the number of units that are usable, and worth their points (especially compared to other units), isn’t there.
There are real changes, and more importantly, lack-thereof; that raises too many questions on how GW could think that was acceptable - or worse, balanced.
The models you use will change, and your tournament performances may improve - but I don’t want a book based around competition; I want a book where I don’t feel, or worse, know, I’m handicapping myself, or throwing the game; because I took units I liked the lore of.
I'm holding out until I've played a few games before I start cementing my opinion on the book. From what I've seen so far it's hard to deny it will be better than the Index I'm used to, though not necessarily in all the ways I was hoping for.
Regardless, I think I'll be having far more fun with this book than with the Index and have a lot more choices about what I can take in a list to have a reasonably chance at success. I'm very much looking forward to getting my hands on the book and playing some games.
Since the puzzle is almost complete, I'm not sure orks will be a top tier competitive army. But I wouldn't be taking bets on them not being top tier either.
Too many good option have changed to make a clear call whether they continue to be top choices for our army or dropped to mid tear. - Boyz increased in cost but gained a ton of stratagems to support them, basically everything you could have wished for: Deep strike, tide of traitors, fight again, and most of the clan specific ones are great as well. - KMK became a whole new unit. No more gretchin, more points, more damage, probably not stratagem support. I wouldn't bet on them staying on top tables, but who knows. The profile is still decent. - Warphead limited to +3 from other orks, but no longer blows up all the time and can cast two powers now, with at least two of the new ones being decent. I have no doubt he will be staying in top lists, but the effect he has on the army is hard to tell. - Warboss point increase is probably not going to matter much since warlord traits and relic klaw will very well outweight the additional 10 points you are paying. Biker warboss stays the same anyways.
Too many weak options didn't get straight up buffs - Kanz got close combat weapons they don't need and no stratagems or kulture - Planes stayed the same, but at least the dakkajet has a stratagem to shoot units with FLY (which is basically the entire aeldari faction) - Deff dread got cheaper and weaker CC weapons, when it needed speed and/or durability. Being able to tellyport them might bring them back into the game though - Still no reason to field trukk boyz or wagon boyz - Bubble chuckas less dependent on your opponent and more dependent on luck - No change to lootas or burnas that would make them good.
And then there is a bunch of wildcards we don't know how they will perform: - Flash gits have scary gun now and an armor save. A unit that can wipe out a unit of helblasters after deep striking might well be worth 300 points. - Wazzbom Blastajet can now potentially deal a ton of damage due to all its weapons being improved. Hard to hit anti-tank might something you want in your army, whether the KFF on it is worth it or not. - Tractor cannons auto-hitting fliers might be game-breaking, but they won't doing a whole lot against stuff that doesn't fly. Like a knight. - Dragsta, Scrapjet and boosta-blasta. All three deal enough damage and cost little enough to be useful, but any of them might or might not be over the threshold for competitive gaming. - The Wartrike might not be useful at all. He is no warboss, can't take melee relics, which means he will primarily be taken for his aura. Unless battlewagons, nauts or the buggies can carry their own weight, we won't be seeing him over Zardsnark or biker warboss. - Bonekrusha fixes the problem I had with my rolla wagons this edition - the first degradation takes them down to d6 attacks, at which point you don't want to spend 19 points on the deffrolla anymore. With 2d6 and the additional mortal wounds, it will be still worth ramming stuff. 159 point still isn't cheap, so it depends heavily on having passengers worth transporting like nobz or MANz. - Gunwagon also has the potential to be powerful. Assuming the rokkit option hasn't gone away, it can fire 2d6 S7 AP-2 D2 shots and 5 S8 AP-2 D3 shots at BS 4+. 218 for all that isn't cheap (190 for big shootas instead of rokkits), but that's still a lot of dakka on a T8 battletank that can move freely. - Both nauts got a point drop and a better main gun. While both guns sound awesome, I'm not sure that they will do well in a meta that is equipped to handle daemon primarchs, castellans and baneblades.
Stratagems, warlord traits and kultures look powerful enough to compete with many other armies, I don't think we can be making calls yet which mix of klans will be taking the top. Being able to spread models across up to three clans with next to no drawback is powerful all on its own.
So I don't think this is the time to start making ad hominem attacks over people think orks will do fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
xlDuke wrote: I'm holding out until I've played a few games before I start cementing my opinion on the book. From what I've seen so far it's hard to deny it will be better than the Index I'm used to, though not necessarily in all the ways I was hoping for.
Regardless, I think I'll be having far more fun with this book than with the Index and have a lot more choices about what I can take in a list to have a reasonably chance at success. I'm very much looking forward to getting my hands on the book and playing some games.
Internal balance?
External balance?
Competitive-ness?
Number of viable builds?
Orks will be competitive - Tellyporta and Evil Suns are what is holding together. But; it won’t be fun, in that the number of units that are usable, and worth their points (especially compared to other units), isn’t there.
There are real changes, and more importantly, lack-thereof; that raises too many questions on how GW could think that was acceptable - or worse, balanced.
The models you use will change, and your tournament performances may improve - but I don’t want a book based around competition; I want a book where I don’t feel, or worse, know, I’m handicapping myself, or throwing the game; because I took units I liked the lore of.
If by "competive" you mean bottom quarter sure. But even if you go for the 1 viable build you will be losing most of your games. And of course that assumes you either already had plenty of evil sun walkers and traktor cannons or buy them.
And for your last...Well good for you if you like evil sun walkers. But apart from those never been a big thing in fluff(evil suns have always been about going fast. Not hulking around in slow walkers) and teleport as general strategy has never been goal. It was special case in armageddon which showcased Ghazkhull's new strategies. Whole point of 3rd war of armageddon was how Ghazkhull surprised Imperium with new ways. Mass teleporting with army has never been described as standard ork lineup.
But if you don't go for teleporting evil suns you ARE handicapping yourself.
Salt donkey wrote: Well if anyone was wondering if certain people will never truly be satisfied with the great things they get, this thread proves it. While I can understand the disappointment some have with certain units, its pretty clear the ork codex as a whole is fantastic. Stuff like a tractor kannon mek guns, deff dreads, boyz, grots, storm boyz, killa kanz, deff rolla battlewagons, deff killa wartrikes, etc, etc are all fantastic options. For those complaining about point increases, remember that all those units could nearly make it top tables despite lacking kultures, stratagem support, and other new special rules. If they stayed where they where at points wise, I guarantee people would have been demanding point increases for them by the time chapter approved arrived. To me most of the naysayers are just mad that their pet units stayed bad or appears 'worse' on the surface. Either that or they just are willfully ignoring the impact that kultures, stratagems, rule changes, and point decreases on previously poor units will have on the army because they feel entitled to blatantly OP rules. Being disappointed that stuff like the Stompa are clearly still bad is fine. Decrying the whole codex as being bad because it isn't obviously better than the most OP codex in the game right is basically trolling.
For traktor guns you are already planning to cheat. Deff dreads only works with DS. Boyz took nerf. Stormboyz took nerf. Killa kans got price decrease which helps but still soft and no klan culture.
The codex will be sub average aiming for bottom parts in tournaments. Overall power level didn't change. Indeed when you compare to index vs index days orks got WEAKER. Only thing that happened is GW got changed 1 sub-optimal build into another forcing buying new models.
And orks only got to top tables if they delibarately SLOW PLAYED 2-3 turn games. Yeah if you rewrite game and don't play same game you can do better. Gee. Play 5+ turns like scenarios tell you and you lose.
But yeah whatever. Cheaters word doesn't count much anyway
Since the puzzle is almost complete, I'm not sure orks will be a top tier competitive army. But I wouldn't be taking bets on them not being top tier either.
Too many good option have changed to make a clear call whether they continue to be top choices for our army or dropped to mid tear.
- Boyz increased in cost but gained a ton of stratagems to support them, basically everything you could have wished for: Deep strike, tide of traitors, fight again, and most of the clan specific ones are great as well.
- KMK became a whole new unit. No more gretchin, more points, more damage, probably not stratagem support. I wouldn't bet on them staying on top tables, but who knows. The profile is still decent.
- Warphead limited to +3 from other orks, but no longer blows up all the time and can cast two powers now, with at least two of the new ones being decent. I have no doubt he will be staying in top lists, but the effect he has on the army is hard to tell.
- Warboss point increase is probably not going to matter much since warlord traits and relic klaw will very well outweight the additional 10 points you are paying. Biker warboss stays the same anyways.
Too many weak options didn't get straight up buffs
- Kanz got close combat weapons they don't need and no stratagems or kulture
- Planes stayed the same, but at least the dakkajet has a stratagem to shoot units with FLY (which is basically the entire aeldari faction)
- Deff dread got cheaper and weaker CC weapons, when it needed speed and/or durability. Being able to tellyport them might bring them back into the game though
- Still no reason to field trukk boyz or wagon boyz
- Bubble chuckas less dependent on your opponent and more dependent on luck
- No change to lootas or burnas that would make them good.
And then there is a bunch of wildcards we don't know how they will perform:
- Flash gits have scary gun now and an armor save. A unit that can wipe out a unit of helblasters after deep striking might well be worth 300 points.
- Wazzbom Blastajet can now potentially deal a ton of damage due to all its weapons being improved. Hard to hit anti-tank might something you want in your army, whether the KFF on it is worth it or not.
- Tractor cannons auto-hitting fliers might be game-breaking, but they won't doing a whole lot against stuff that doesn't fly. Like a knight.
- Dragsta, Scrapjet and boosta-blasta. All three deal enough damage and cost little enough to be useful, but any of them might or might not be over the threshold for competitive gaming.
- The Wartrike might not be useful at all. He is no warboss, can't take melee relics, which means he will primarily be taken for his aura. Unless battlewagons, nauts or the buggies can carry their own weight, we won't be seeing him over Zardsnark or biker warboss.
- Bonekrusha fixes the problem I had with my rolla wagons this edition - the first degradation takes them down to d6 attacks, at which point you don't want to spend 19 points on the deffrolla anymore. With 2d6 and the additional mortal wounds, it will be still worth ramming stuff. 159 point still isn't cheap, so it depends heavily on having passengers worth transporting like nobz or MANz.
- Gunwagon also has the potential to be powerful. Assuming the rokkit option hasn't gone away, it can fire 2d6 S7 AP-2 D2 shots and 5 S8 AP-2 D3 shots at BS 4+. 218 for all that isn't cheap (190 for big shootas instead of rokkits), but that's still a lot of dakka on a T8 battletank that can move freely.
- Both nauts got a point drop and a better main gun. While both guns sound awesome, I'm not sure that they will do well in a meta that is equipped to handle daemon primarchs, castellans and baneblades.
Stratagems, warlord traits and kultures look powerful enough to compete with many other armies, I don't think we can be making calls yet which mix of klans will be taking the top. Being able to spread models across up to three clans with next to no drawback is powerful all on its own.
So I don't think this is the time to start making ad hominem attacks over people think orks will do fine.
- Boyz have 1 in 10 Tankbusta Bomms for free.
- KMKs can get reroll 1s from Runtherds. It still remains the best way to reach out and harass tanks on the cheap.
- Flyers have Deathskullz or Bad Moon, but I need to see the datasheets.
- Deffdreads are in an enviable position for all dreadnought lovers.
- Trukk Boyz - dunno - I need to have the book first.
- Bubblechukkas did get cheaper though. I don't think they were really used before.
- Waiting on armor save confirmation for Lootas (Scorpions video is still too blurry)
- Burnas are cheaper and so are the transports and have other ways to get them close. I won't use them though, because so much else fills their role.
Why is nobody talking about bika nobz? They went down 4ppm and the cc weapons got cheaper too by 4 points (big choppa) and 12 points (pk) Combined with evil sunz trait and trike aura buff they could potentially wreck something really seriously on t1. I mean we talk 16" base move with sunz! And while still expensive at 43pts for a choppanob they're scary fast and still t5 w3 models.
Gonna try a few mobs of those combined with a few of the new buggies and a deffrolla wagon also filled with nobz for my first game with the codex. Sounds fun
Morkphoiz wrote: Why is nobody talking about bika nobz? They went down 4ppm and the cc weapons got cheaper too by 4 points (big choppa) and 12 points (pk) Combined with evil sunz trait and trike aura buff they could potentially wreck something really seriously on t1. I mean we talk 16" base move with sunz! And while still expensive at 43pts for a choppanob they're scary fast and still t5 w3 models.
Gonna try a few mobs of those combined with a few of the new buggies and a deffrolla wagon also filled with nobz for my first game with the codex. Sounds fun
Get them a kff and make them snakebite. T5 4+/5++/6+++
Not as fast, but stupid durable and spoils 3 damage weapons.
Morkphoiz wrote: Why is nobody talking about bika nobz? They went down 4ppm and the cc weapons got cheaper too by 4 points (big choppa) and 12 points (pk) Combined with evil sunz trait and trike aura buff they could potentially wreck something really seriously on t1. I mean we talk 16" base move with sunz! And while still expensive at 43pts for a choppanob they're scary fast and still t5 w3 models.
Gonna try a few mobs of those combined with a few of the new buggies and a deffrolla wagon also filled with nobz for my first game with the codex. Sounds fun
Get them a kff and make them snakebite. T5 4+/5++/6+++
Not as fast, but stupid durable and spoils 3 damage weapons.
They're 40 odd points minimum. Take it from someone who tested squads of Nob bikers extensively since 8th dropped, they ain't great.
They needed a greater price cut or better gun than standard warbikes. As it is they don't offer enough for their roughly double points cost.
I can't decide if the Freeboota kultur is any good or not. Seems like it is once again offering a benefit when you don't really need it; in my experience, most ork kills happen in a fight phase once contact has been made. On the other hand, it's a huge boost for shooting armies if you can actually get an early kill with shooting.
Of course, as I said when it first got leaked, it is completely contrary to the concept of freebootaz, since the most effective build is to have the entire army made up of units with the kultur.
Perfect Organism wrote: I can't decide if the Freeboota kultur is any good or not. Seems like it is once again offering a benefit when you don't really need it; in my experience, most ork kills happen in a fight phase once contact has been made. On the other hand, it's a huge boost for shooting armies if you can actually get an early kill with shooting.
Of course, as I said when it first got leaked, it is completely contrary to the concept of freebootaz, since the most effective build is to have the entire army made up of units with the kultur.
It triggers in every phase tho. Even in your opponent's Fight phase.
Perfect Organism wrote: I can't decide if the Freeboota kultur is any good or not. Seems like it is once again offering a benefit when you don't really need it; in my experience, most ork kills happen in a fight phase once contact has been made. On the other hand, it's a huge boost for shooting armies if you can actually get an early kill with shooting.
It triggers in every phase tho. Even in your opponent's Fight phase.
I know, but in my experience you don't usually need any bonus when you are charging (unless you are so depleted that you are unlikely to get a kill early in the phase), rarely kill a whole unit in an enemy fight phase, and it's less of a benefit to turn 3+ attacks into 2+ ones than it is to turn 5+ ones into 4+ or 6+ into 5+.
I wonder how it interacts with transports? Are units in an open-topped transport able to either grant or receive the bonus? Can they get the bonus from their transport killing something or vice-versa?
Perfect Organism wrote: I can't decide if the Freeboota kultur is any good or not. Seems like it is once again offering a benefit when you don't really need it; in my experience, most ork kills happen in a fight phase once contact has been made. On the other hand, it's a huge boost for shooting armies if you can actually get an early kill with shooting.
Of course, as I said when it first got leaked, it is completely contrary to the concept of freebootaz, since the most effective build is to have the entire army made up of units with the kultur.
It comes down to timing and opportunity. Flash Gitz have a pseudo Disintegrator now and could finish something off and let other units unload.
all this is suspect, since the person was reading it and he mightve missread some stuff, so none of this is final. buff=for every10boyz, 1 tankbusta bomb (0pts) nerf=tankbustas reroll tohit of 1s instead on failed hits (possible mistake) buff=komandoes (8pt), 1 in every5 can take 1 tankbusta bomb (0pts) runtherd=squig hound/grot lash only effects gretchin "infantry" scrapjet has the same spiked ram (on top of havving its drill) as the boom blasta nerf=stormboy full throttle just adds 6inches to advance, so no charging unless you have that warboss, and they still get the same mortal wounds from doing this (went from 8pt to 9pts) buff=traktor kannon r48 hvy1 s8 -2 d6dmg (roll 2d6 and pick highest against flyers),if this kills a unit with fly it auto crash and burns,...what is auto hit that other have mentioned (maybe only against fly)? gunwagon=comes with ardcase,under half speed in movement phase shoot twice with killkanon/zapgun/kanon (no rokets on any wagon) (dont know if there is better bs?) killkan=no kmb anymore. (kmb is d6dmg now).buzzsaw,kanclaw,drilla are all wpn options (all 0pts) defdredd=(pl5)(can fit 3 in a tellyport),start with 2dredclaws (15each),looks like we can replace its existing claws with ranged wpns (dakka dredd!!!!????)(kmb spam? maybe not worth it but has clan traits for shooting),can take 4 dredsaws (cheaper melee option but less efficiant) flashgits=1 ammo runt for every 5 truck=no rokets any more. is now 10pts cheaper then the warcopta (might be worth taking this instead?) stompa=no change to the psyko daka blasta rules
edit, accidentally listed the tankbustas as 8pts when i meant to have that on the komandoes
Not if they're in a transport. And i doubt it's a good idea to run 30 ppm 4+ armored dudes on foot. So, pretty useless for them. On the other hand, deepstrike might help. Still definitely worse than deepstriking regular boyz. But at least something for fluffy awesome looking pirate armies
- KMKs can get reroll 1s from Runtherds. It still remains the best way to reach out and harass tanks on the cheap.
nah, i listened to scorpians vid too, it only effects grot infantry, and the grot krew of the mek guns dont shoot the gun (the gun only shoots itself).
nah, i listened to scorpians vid too, it only effects grot infantry, and the grot krew of the mek guns dont shoot the gun (the gun only shoots itself).
nah, i listened to scorpians vid too, it only effects grot infantry, and the grot krew of the mek guns dont shoot the gun (the gun only shoots itself).
That sucks.
not only did its wpns get more expensive but also it lost its abilities for the krew to do anything (they dont even act like extra wounds, they are just there to stand there and take up space), and yes, no unit/strat/trait buffs them to my knowledge.
the unfortunate thing about it is this is stil probably one our few good shooting options still. if you want long range high damage shooting with good balaistic skill this is still pretty much our go to unit, at leasts the other wpn options besides the kmk got longer range and better stats (especially the traktorkannon)
nah, i listened to scorpians vid too, it only effects grot infantry, and the grot krew of the mek guns dont shoot the gun (the gun only shoots itself).
That sucks.
not only did its wpns get more expensive but also it lost its abilities for the krew to do anything (they dont even act like extra wounds, they are just there to stand there and take up space), and yes, no unit/strat/trait buffs them to my knowledge.
the unfortunate thing about it is this is stil probably one our few good shooting options still. if you want long range high damage shooting with good balaistic skill this is still pretty much our go to unit, at leasts the other wpn options besides the kmk got longer range and better stats (especially the traktorkannon)
I still think they'll have a place. There are tons of options otherwise.
The dakkawagon and the KMZ seem pretty solid. Teleporting/ambushing TBs, too. The anti-tank buggies seem like they're in the right point zone, but I need to see the book in person. Lootas if they're on 4+ armor.
I still think they'll have a place. There are tons of options otherwise.
The dakkawagon and the KMZ seem pretty solid. Teleporting/ambushing TBs, too. The anti-tank buggies seem like they're in the right point zone, but I need to see the book in person. Lootas if they're on 4+ armor.
i agree on the mekgun still ebing usefull, but soley on its merits of being something our army lacks many options for (long range durable shooting).
would be realy happy with 4+ lootas, but not expecting it. probabaly best way to run them is behind grot shield screens.
gunwagon im not sure about. will have to see. its got a lot of wounds, but like the stompa it doesn't sound like it does much damage for the amount of health it has. "all bark and very little bite"
all this is suspect, since the person was reading it and he mightve missread some stuff, so none of this is final.
buff=for every10boyz, 1 tankbusta bomb (0pts)
nerf=tankbustas reroll tohit of 1s instead on failed hits (possible mistake)
buff=komandoes (8pt), 1 in every5 can take 1 tankbusta bomb (0pts)
runtherd=squig hound/grot lash only effects gretchin "infantry"
scrapjet has the same spiked ram (on top of havving its drill) as the boom blasta
nerf=stormboy full throttle just adds 6inches to advance, so no charging unless you have that warboss, and they still get the same mortal wounds from doing this (went from 8pt to 9pts)
buff=traktor kannon r48 hvy1 s8 -2 d6dmg (roll 2d6 and pick highest against flyers),if this kills a unit with fly it auto crash and burns,...what is auto hit that other have mentioned (maybe only against fly)?
gunwagon=comes with ardcase,under half speed in movement phase shoot twice with killkanon/zapgun/kanon (no rokets on any wagon) (dont know if there is better bs?)
killkan=no kmb anymore. (kmb is d6dmg now).buzzsaw,kanclaw,drilla are all wpn options (all 0pts)
defdredd=(pl5)(can fit 3 in a tellyport),start with 2dredclaws (15each),looks like we can replace its existing claws with ranged wpns (dakka dredd!!!!????)(kmb spam? maybe not worth it but has clan traits for shooting),can take 4 dredsaws (cheaper melee option but less efficiant)
flashgits=1 ammo runt for every 5
truck=no rokets any more. is now 10pts cheaper then the warcopta (might be worth taking this instead?)
stompa=no change to the psyko daka blasta rules
edit, accidentally listed the tankbustas as 8pts when i meant to have that on the komandoes
Thanks for the write-up!
I must say, love the tank busta bombs going to boyz, but I'm not sure what to do with them on kommandoz.
As for killa kanz, you can just get the KMB from the index entry.
For the deff dread, I've been thinking about this. Maybe you should have 1 dreadklaw and 3 saws, so you'd have three attacks with the better profile for hard targets and three for targets with multiple models - the dread would end up costing 90 points that way.
I must say, love the tank busta bombs going to boyz, but I'm not sure what to do with them on kommandoz.
As for killa kanz, you can just get the KMB from the index entry.
For the deff dread, I've been thinking about this. Maybe you should have 1 dreadklaw and 3 saws, so you'd have three attacks with the better profile for hard targets and three for targets with multiple models - the dread would end up costing 90 points that way.
your welcome
i think the claw/saw profiles only are used for their own attacks (1saw for 1 attack with saw, 3 claws for 3 attacks with claws)
I still think they'll have a place. There are tons of options otherwise.
The dakkawagon and the KMZ seem pretty solid. Teleporting/ambushing TBs, too. The anti-tank buggies seem like they're in the right point zone, but I need to see the book in person. Lootas if they're on 4+ armor.
i agree on the mekgun still ebing usefull, but soley on its merits of being something our army lacks many options for (long range durable shooting).
would be realy happy with 4+ lootas, but not expecting it. probabaly best way to run them is behind grot shield screens.
gunwagon im not sure about. will have to see. its got a lot of wounds, but like the stompa it doesn't sound like it does much damage for the amount of health it has. "all bark and very little bite"
I'll try 3x5 lootas + SAG mek as a deff skulls detachment. All of them get objective secured, 6++ and re-rolls, might make them worthwhile objective sitters. Better than having gretchin sit on objectives, but you might need those for CP anyways.
I must say, love the tank busta bombs going to boyz, but I'm not sure what to do with them on kommandoz.
As for killa kanz, you can just get the KMB from the index entry.
For the deff dread, I've been thinking about this. Maybe you should have 1 dreadklaw and 3 saws, so you'd have three attacks with the better profile for hard targets and three for targets with multiple models - the dread would end up costing 90 points that way.
your welcome
i think the claw/saw profiles only are used for their own attacks (1saw for 1 attack with saw, 3 claws for 3 attacks with claws)
Yeah, but you can choose which weapon you use the two base attacks with. So you get two base with the klaw, plus one additional one from klaw, and then three additional ones from the three saws.
Yeah, but you can choose which weapon you use the two base attacks with. So you get two base with the klaw, plus one additional one from klaw, and then three additional ones from the three saws.
I'll try 3x5 lootas + SAG mek as a deff skulls detachment. All of them get objective secured, 6++ and re-rolls, might make them worthwhile objective sitters. Better than having gretchin sit on objectives, but you might need those for CP anyways.
I'm leaning Bad Moon. Two units of 10. Mob up. Gretchin screen (because killing a gretchin is way better anyway and I don't need to bother with KFF).
Have a couple Traktor Kannons nearby for my opponent to blow up and get me on 3+ for the whole mob of 20.
Then More Dakka. That's 46.6 shots base (reroll on shot quantity). That goes to 62 shots with explosions. Reroll of 1s gets you another 2.5 on explodes.
25 hits, 12.5 wounds, 6.3 get through for 12.5 damage on an Armiger (8 on a knight).
Now use the double tap stratagem and double that.
Orks might actually slide the game to gunlines, because they have the melee protection to keep stuff off the back line and the gretchin keep things ridiculously safe.
On the lucky end of 3 shots each...it's 16 and 11 damage respectively.
What's the Mek Gun krew rule now? Wounds have to be allocated to the gun first? Or are the grots literally just decoration with no statline (which would seem really weird with the general trend of 8th edition where everything with its own base counts as a model).
Perfect Organism wrote: What's the Mek Gun krew rule now? Wounds have to be allocated to the gun first? Or are the grots literally just decoration with no statline (which would seem really weird with the general trend of 8th edition where everything with its own base counts as a model).
The grots can only be tagetted if they are the closest model, otherwise wounds go on the gun first, so losing the crew doesn't really change anything. Basically they have the character rule so they can't be used as ablative wounds, as well as to make it harder for just bolters to make the gun useless by killing all the grots instead.
all this is suspect, since the person was reading it and he mightve missread some stuff, so none of this is final.
buff=for every10boyz, 1 tankbusta bomb (0pts)
nerf=tankbustas reroll tohit of 1s instead on failed hits (possible mistake)
buff=komandoes (8pt), 1 in every5 can take 1 tankbusta bomb (0pts)
runtherd=squig hound/grot lash only effects gretchin "infantry"
scrapjet has the same spiked ram (on top of havving its drill) as the boom blasta
nerf=stormboy full throttle just adds 6inches to advance, so no charging unless you have that warboss, and they still get the same mortal wounds from doing this (went from 8pt to 9pts)
buff=traktor kannon r48 hvy1 s8 -2 d6dmg (roll 2d6 and pick highest against flyers),if this kills a unit with fly it auto crash and burns,...what is auto hit that other have mentioned (maybe only against fly)?
gunwagon=comes with ardcase,under half speed in movement phase shoot twice with killkanon/zapgun/kanon (no rokets on any wagon) (dont know if there is better bs?)
killkan=no kmb anymore. (kmb is d6dmg now).buzzsaw,kanclaw,drilla are all wpn options (all 0pts)
defdredd=(pl5)(can fit 3 in a tellyport),start with 2dredclaws (15each),looks like we can replace its existing claws with ranged wpns (dakka dredd!!!!????)(kmb spam? maybe not worth it but has clan traits for shooting),can take 4 dredsaws (cheaper melee option but less efficiant)
flashgits=1 ammo runt for every 5
truck=no rokets any more. is now 10pts cheaper then the warcopta (might be worth taking this instead?)
stompa=no change to the psyko daka blasta rules
edit, accidentally listed the tankbustas as 8pts when i meant to have that on the komandoes
Wow. It just keeps getting worse. If those stormboy and tankbusta change ls are true, that's just completely rediculous
Eonfuzz wrote: With the codex rules about "Wargear not available, use the index".
Would it still be possible to have 5x Ammo runts in both Nob and FlashGitz squads? After all they are just wargear purchases.
theoratically yes. but thats why i dont like using index stuff. its sort of WAAC.
but well... on the other hand i'm having a hard time on abandoning my MAN and biker warbosses :/
Yeah, i'd gone and converted a bunch of my Nobz to have Killsaws and dubbed them "Da Kan Openerz", but they may not be possible to run anymore via codex. Which will suck.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chaos players have been running 9x Demon princes because of the Index stat sheet and codex sheets, right?
No, that's all codex stuff unfortunately.
But any Craftworld player that takes an Autarch is taking index options of swooping hawk wings & reaper launcher. There's other armies that use index options.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chaos players have been running 9x Demon princes because of the Index stat sheet and codex sheets, right?
Maybe some are, but that is actually exploitable all through codices. Daemon prince of tzeentch, normal daemon prince and daemon prince of nurgle are all separate datasheets so you could easily take 9 DP's if you wanted to without looking at the index
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chaos players have been running 9x Demon princes because of the Index stat sheet and codex sheets, right?
Maybe some are, but that is actually exploitable all through codices. Daemon prince of tzeentch, normal daemon prince and daemon prince of nurgle are all separate datasheets so you could easily take 9 DP's if you wanted to without looking at the index
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chaos players have been running 9x Demon princes because of the Index stat sheet and codex sheets, right?
No, that's all codex stuff unfortunately.
But any Craftworld player that takes an Autarch is taking index options of swooping hawk wings & reaper launcher. There's other armies that use index options.
And the loss of Mega-amored warboss really hurts. It was possibly the one model almost everyone had as a kitbash.
Aside from the Ammo runts, what other kinds of wargear cheese can orks pull off with the upcoming codex.
Could we pick up Gretchin for the Mek Guns?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Chaos players have been running 9x Demon princes because of the Index stat sheet and codex sheets, right?
No, that's all codex stuff unfortunately.
But any Craftworld player that takes an Autarch is taking index options of swooping hawk wings & reaper launcher. There's other armies that use index options.
Only a matter of time before index options are phased out.
I've been thinking on it, and I think there's some really cheesy things we could do RAW with the phasing out.
So with the Index vs Codex discussion, you're allowed to take any wargear if it exists in the index (But with the codex rules). Because GW are bad at writing rules that means we can do the following:
Take 1-5 Ammo Grots with Flashgits
Take 1-5 Ammo Grots with Nobz
Take 1 Cybork with Nobz
Take 1-5 Gretchin with Kustom Mega Guns
Take Attack Squig with Warboss
Take the Wargear option of "Big bomm" for Koptas as well as the default "Big bomm".
Eonfuzz wrote: I've been thinking on it, and I think there's some really cheesy things we could do RAW with the phasing out.
So with the Index vs Codex discussion, you're allowed to take any wargear if it exists in the index (But with the codex rules). Because GW are bad at writing rules that means we can do the following:
Take 1-5 Ammo Grots with Flashgits
Take 1-5 Ammo Grots with Nobz
Take 1 Cybork with Nobz
Take 1-5 Gretchin with Kustom Mega Guns
Take Attack Squig with Warboss
Take the Wargear option of "Big bomm" for Koptas as well as the default "Big bomm".
Anything else?
Warboss still gets the attack squigg, so no index needed on that one.
I don't think you can take index wargear if it's not listed in the codex data sheet for the unit. Does ITC allow this?
First I would like to apologize for sounding a bit know it all earlier. Frankly I don’t play orks nor plan on starting them. Also I honestly don’t know for certain whether or not orks will be top tier. That being said I want to say a few things in my defense,
1st) for those checking my history i have or do play the armies I posted about previously.
2nd) just because I don’t play orks doesn’t mean my points aren’t valid. For one I’ve talked to enough tournament players to know that index orks weren’t nearly as bad as often touted on forums like these. Not quite good enough to be easily played or place high in tournaments, but great ork players could still do 4-2 and 5-1 with it. Second is the fact the codex has just been revealed. I doubt many of naysayers have had a real opportunity to playtest the book, so they’re pretty much as much in dark as I am. Yeah they may know better than I for what was good before, but that doesn’t mean they know what is good now. Which brings me to my third point.
3rd) Playtesteters have been raving about the codex. I know Reece might be somewhat controversial around here, but it is a fact that he plays orks and thinks the codex is very good after playing it. Additionally Geoff Robinson has also stated the codex to be very good, a player who frequently places high at huge tournaments. I’m choosing to trust these guys and my own logic over people who have never played the codex.
You may disagree with my opinion that’s fine, but please at least get some games in with the new rules before calling for GW’s head. Just like I can’t know right now that the codex is good, you can’t know that the codex will be bad. I guess what I’m saying is to wait a few months before bringing out the “Why does GW hate orks?” Threads.
Salt donkey wrote: First I would like to apologize for sounding a bit know it all earlier. Frankly I don’t play orks nor plan on starting them. Also I honestly don’t know for certain whether or not orks will be top tier. That being said I want to say a few things in my defense,
1st) for those checking my history i have or do play the armies I posted about previously.
2nd) just because I don’t play orks doesn’t mean my points aren’t valid. For one I’ve talked to enough tournament players to know that index orks weren’t nearly as bad as often touted on forums like these. Not quite good enough to be easily played or place high in tournaments, but great ork players could still do 4-2 and 5-1 with it. Second is the fact the codex has just been revealed. I doubt many of naysayers have had a real opportunity to playtest the book, so they’re pretty much as much in dark as I am. Yeah they may know better than I for what was good before, but that doesn’t mean they know what is good now. Which brings me to my third point.
3rd) Playtesteters have been raving about the codex. I know Reece might be somewhat controversial around here, but it is a fact that he plays orks and thinks the codex is very good after playing it. Additionally Geoff Robinson has also stated the codex to be very good, a player who frequently places high at huge tournaments. I’m choosing to trust these guys and my own logic over people who have never played the codex.
You may disagree with my opinion that’s fine, but please at least get some games in with the new rules before calling for GW’s head. Just like I can’t know right now that the codex is good, you can’t know that the codex will be bad. I guess what I’m saying is to wait a few months before bringing out the “Why does GW hate orks?” Threads.
Your as entitled to your opinion as anyone else. This is a forum for 40k discussion and everyone can weigh in on any army.
my opinion on the codex is its a very lateral change for orks. we get all these cool strats/traits yet very little in the codex changed much.
a good way to determine if a codex is good or not is get rid of the strats and traits. see how well a codex does without the toys that are more or less window dressing for imbalance. if i ran my codex against a darkeldar player without our or his strats then im pretty sure i would lose badly.
now dont say "it was costed with the strats in mind"
as us ork players have said many times that this didn't happen for many codex's and they infact got good price decreases as well as the strats.
ive come close to having a game like this.it was apokalype (no cp or strats or traits used). i went against codex tau and guard, 200pl each. i was running my dex, with 500pl total. i ran the dredmob. i outnumbered them and i got tabled by turn 3.
not only did i have the pts advantage, but i had the numbers.
now someone might say "but you were just index", but since we were all playing without the "windowdressing" and that the codex has changed very little when it come to points then its apparent i was playing with essentially the codex already (i just didnt know it yet). our codex is a trashfire, and the only thing that is going to keep it alive is the use of strats/traits.
a good way to determine if a codex is good or not is get rid of the strats and traits. see how well a codex does without the toys that are more or less window dressing for imbalance.
I think that's possibly the worst possible way to look at the power level of anything. The most OP thing back before the FAQ was CP farm because of the stratagems it supported. Stratagems are how the game works and can literally decide whether or not a unit is any good.
I wonder how good Iron Warrior cultists would be without Cold & Bitter, Veterans of the Long War, and Tide of Traitors (a stratagem which has already been nerfed once).
Stratagems propel bad units into good ones, and good units to the highest tiers of the game.
And Orks also have a surprising amount of permanent improvement stratagems.
'Ard boyz
Skarboyz
Loot it!
Warphead
These are all (not you 'ardboyz) great and can easily be acquired if you run a double battalion or brigade without stressing your CP account for the rest of the game.
Ultimately I'm not sure where Orks are going to place in tournaments a few months down the line, but they will force players to invest heavily in screens again. With the nerf to FLY & deepstrike it seems like a lot of people starting skimping on chaff. The amount of orks that can be in your face early game is potentially insane. I don't see how that is consistently mitigated without a hefty bubblewrap budget...
a good way to determine if a codex is good or not is get rid of the strats and traits. see how well a codex does without the toys that are more or less window dressing for imbalance.
I think that's possibly the worst possible way to look at the power level of anything. The most OP thing back before the FAQ was CP farm because of the stratagems it supported. Stratagems are how the game works and can literally decide whether or not a unit is any good.
I wonder how good Iron Warrior cultists would be without Cold & Bitter, Veterans of the Long War, and Tide of Traitors (a stratagem which has already been nerfed once).
Stratagems propel bad units into good ones, and good units to the highest tiers of the game.
strats/traits/etc these are formation bonuses all over again. it gives buffs. in 8th you pay for it with cp, in 7th you pay for it by being required to take units you wouldn't normally take. but it was maliciously;y abused, and its still going to be abused. strats will give outrageous bonuses for very little cp, just like how many formations got outrageous bonuses without requiring any poor units.
some are favored, some arnt. but if orks are favored with the strats this edition, it is only covering up how badly balanced our codex is. playing without formations or strats is like playing any edition before 7th.
GW doesn't have to worry about doing the hard maths (or even the simple maths) if they just throw us shiny new bling to drape over our horrifically ugly balanced codex. dont be fooled by the bling. see it for what it is.
its fun, strats are fun, but its like an explosion in a Michael bay film, its there to distract you that your actually watching a poorly made movie.
a good way to determine if a codex is good or not is get rid of the strats and traits. see how well a codex does without the toys that are more or less window dressing for imbalance.
I think that's possibly the worst possible way to look at the power level of anything. The most OP thing back before the FAQ was CP farm because of the stratagems it supported. Stratagems are how the game works and can literally decide whether or not a unit is any good.
I wonder how good Iron Warrior cultists would be without Cold & Bitter, Veterans of the Long War, and Tide of Traitors (a stratagem which has already been nerfed once).
Stratagems propel bad units into good ones, and good units to the highest tiers of the game.
Thing is other armies got just as cool if not better strategems AND buffs/price drops to units.
So yeah MAYBE orks got bit better vs other codexes compared to index vs codex period but got worse off compared to index vs index period. Fine if orks were uber broken army in index but they were sub-standard to begin with.
Its not elitist to expect a regular Ork player to understand the nuance of his army better than someone who has never played Orks. That is common sense.
I run my Orks every other week when I can. They are the only army I currently play. I think it should be expected that I have a greater idea of how Ork units, particularly those I regularly run perform on the tabletop. I know how good Zhadsnark is because I run him every game. I also know his weaknesses (4+ save, no invulnerable if you're interested). I know how well Warbikers perform on the tabletop because I take a ton of them every game. A player who has never used these units on the board I don't think will ever have the same level of insight as someone who has, unless they run a very similar unit in their army. Some Ork units don't have other analogues though. We always pay for a melee profile that some units will never use. I don't think other players get this.
That being said I'm not a competitive player per se. I don't take the WAAC lists and I never will. I would literally rather lose. That doesn't mean I should expect to be blown off the table by another list at the bottom of turn 2. Other codexes have managed to mix strength and flexibility so even varied lists can perform well at the top tables. This is all I wanted from the release. My concerns stem from that and selfishly my army theme seems rather weak, in comparison to others.
100 Pts Ork Shoota vs 100pts Astra Militarum at 12 inch range.
NB, this is a shooting contest, ignoring Orders, Strategems etc.
Orks do four unsaved wounds in one round, AM do 12 unsaved wounds. Average Leadership results in another six unsaved wounds for Orks, none for AM. Orks tabled.
Melee contest on Planet Billiard Table.
Same points, same units same conditions.
Orks charge, take two potential wounds from Overwatch, do 12 unsaved wounds. Average Leadership does another two wounds, four to six AM left.
AM charge, take one potential wound from overwatch, do three, probably unsaved wounds to Orks. Average Leadership means no further wounds.
Given that AM table the Orks in one out of two scenarios, and Orks cannot, I would suggest there is a problem with the points system.
Guys, the topic here is the new ork codex. Not the qualifications of some podcast presenter, not the validity of other posters' opinions due to their army choices, and not speculation over whether or not a given poster is trolling.
If you see a post that you feel crosses a line, report it. Don't respond in kind, escalate the whole business, and leave us with a page and a half of nonsense to clean out of the thread.
Any more silliness and the thread will be locked and those responsible shown the door for a spell.
fair enough insaniak. though i hope its fine i post something from one of my deleted comments.
so orks have telyport. my brother said there was an faq about not using a reserve strategem more then once. i cant seem to find it. does anyone here know about this?
i would like to use that strat mutable times and i am already planning a list around that. dont want to get ahead of myself if its forbidden by faq.
100 Pts Ork Shoota vs 100pts Astra Militarum at 12 inch range.
NB, this is a shooting contest, ignoring Orders, Strategems etc.
Orks do four unsaved wounds in one round, AM do 12 unsaved wounds. Average Leadership results in another six unsaved wounds for Orks, none for AM. Orks tabled.
Melee contest on Planet Billiard Table.
Same points, same units same conditions.
Orks charge, take two potential wounds from Overwatch, do 12 unsaved wounds. Average Leadership does another two wounds, four to six AM left.
AM charge, take one potential wound from overwatch, do three, probably unsaved wounds to Orks. Average Leadership means no further wounds.
Given that AM table the Orks in one out of two scenarios, and Orks cannot, I would suggest there is a problem with the points system.
YMMV.
Wanna walk through the maths on the tabling? Not sure how you are getting it. Bear in mind I'm hazy on a lot of AM stats so could be very wrong.
100 pts of guard is 25 men yeah? So 50 shots at 12 inch range (dunno if sergeants have lasguns). Guards have BS of 4+? So 25 hits. Str3 las gun vs T4 orks is 8.333 wounds (so already less than 12). 6+ save means that falls to about 7.
14 orks for 100 pts, so 28 shoota shots. 28 * 1/3 * 7/6 (Dakka Dakka Dakka) is 10.888 hits. Str4 vs T3 is 7.222 wounds. 5+ save means 4.8 so through, lets say 5.
So 5 kills vs 7 kills, or 20pts vs 49pts. In you melee scenario is 12 vs 3 so 48 pts vs 21pts.
Doesn't sound too unbalanced?
(I've ignored leadership because of all the thigns to ignore in planet billiard table, this one is a fundamental part of how guard and orks play. Arguably so are orders granted).
FURTHER EDIT: Just to be clear, I largely agree, and think guardsmen should increase in cost.
There's no FAQ against it at all.
However some of the teleport stratagems in other codexes are limited to one use only (the Eldar ones are X cost for 1, Y cost for 2 ans can't be used multiple times like the Relic stratagems).
Others (like Daemons) are similar to the Ork one - no restriction on the number of times it can be used.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: There's no FAQ against it at all.
However some of the teleport stratagems in other codexes are limited to one use only (the Eldar ones are X cost for 1, Y cost for 2 ans can't be used multiple times like the Relic stratagems).
Others (like Daemons) are similar to the Ork one - no restriction on the number of times it can be used.
ok, thank you. now i can telyport without fear.
the meta will rule the day they blasted away my walkers on 1st turn.
man, i wish i didn't have to rely on this broken trait to be competitive with our walkers.
Ok mate whatever you say. Not entirely sure how your so certain that stuff like boyz and stormboyz will be worse from index to codex (I guess stuff like options between essentially +2 to movement, 6+++, and 6++ with tons of free re-rolls as well as stratagem support and better rules are just not worth a1 point per model increase and a larger base size). You're also ignoring all the other units which dropped in points. While it may not matter for some, do you honestly expect that every single bad index unit will still stay bad in the codex? You remind me of the eldar players who called their codex trash when it was first revealed. Just because the Ork codex isnt exactly what you wanted doesn't mean it's bad.
My prediction is that Orks to be a top tier army that will be heavily played by the time LVO rolls around. It will be interesting to see which one of us is right
I believe you are wrong on the first part, those buffs are not worth 1ppm since no other codex had to pay an increase for similar treatments. Also, the units that received price cuts didn't receive nearly enough to make them playable. Warbikes are meh at best even with a 4pt reduction. Keep in mind in 7th they were 18, so they are still 5ppm more then they were. Nobz and Biker Nobz are still hot garbage, hell the Biker nob is worse then the Meganobz and that is saying something. As for the 2nd part. You are 100% correct. Orkz will be top tier, but not because the codex is good, only because I can now teleport OVER 1/2 of my army on turn 2 to be right behind the enemies lines and have an 8' charge where I get to reroll 1 or both dice. Taking Evil Sunz means i will not be fielding bikes, nope, i'll be fielding tons of Boyz with choppas, a Gorkanaut or possibly some other stuff as well as Kommandos and Stormboyz so I can literally appear on turn 2 in charge range with over half my army (because i'll da jump a unit) and the charge range will be 8' with rerolls so better then 50% chance to get in combat.
strats/traits/etc
these are formation bonuses all over again.
it gives buffs. in 8th you pay for it with cp, in 7th you pay for it by being required to take units you wouldn't normally take. but it was maliciously;y abused, and its still going to be abused. strats will give outrageous bonuses for very little cp, just like how many formations got outrageous bonuses without requiring any poor units.
some are favored, some arnt. but if orks are favored with the strats this edition, it is only covering up how badly balanced our codex is. playing without formations or strats is like playing any edition before 7th.
GW doesn't have to worry about doing the hard maths (or even the simple maths) if they just throw us shiny new bling to drape over our horrifically ugly balanced codex. dont be fooled by the bling. see it for what it is.
its fun, strats are fun, but its like an explosion in a Michael bay film, its there to distract you that your actually watching a poorly made movie.
This is my new favorite analogy The Ork codex is a Michael Bay film with our decent strats being really cool explosions
This is my new favorite analogy The Ork codex is a Michael Bay film with our decent strats being really cool explosions
i wish our codex was more like madmax fury road....no, not for the theme. but with good pacing, compelling and well thought out characters and explosions so artfully inserted that your surprised with how original and epic an explosion can become.
(I've ignored leadership because of all the thigns to ignore in planet billiard table, this one is a fundamental part of how guard and orks play. Arguably so are orders granted).
FURTHER EDIT: Just to be clear, I largely agree, and think guardsmen should increase in cost.
Hi, will not quibble on the maths, but Leadership kills the Orks off, AM not so much. The point I’m trying to make is that the basic points costs are off, so tweaking via CP or Strategem to make factions viable is not solving the problem.
If anything, making the game board and terrain redundant with telly port effects is providing less of a game for both players.
geargutz wrote: my opinion on the codex is its a very lateral change for orks. we get all these cool strats/traits yet very little in the codex changed much.
Something I want to give you to consider:
From what I gather, you probably have started during 7th edition, right? Which means you have started with orks and learned to love the army and how it works in the context of 7th, which also means your collection will probably consist mostly of the stuff that was doing well in 7th.
I started during the dawn of 5th. The bulk of my collection consist of stuff that was decent to competitive in 5th: battlewagons, koptas, lootas, burnas, kanz, nob bikers, planes and almost all my units of boyz are 20 or 12 strong (there was 0 reason to bring 30 boyz in 5th, quite the opposite). Imagine how amazed I was by the 7th edition which gave almost all those units a kick in the nuts. Battlewagon up in price, deff rolla useless, koptas useless, lootaz move to heavy, up in points and useless, kanz overpriced and extra useless, nob bikers overpriced and useless and your best way of fielding boyz was blobs of 30. None of my stuff was any good anymore. Still, I adapted my army to the new edition and still had a few games that were quite fun - more fun than running a 4th edition army against 6th edition codices anyways. Then the decurion power-creep kicked in and finished off my love for 40k (never for orks though) until 8th.
The point is not to tell you that you are too new to the hobby, but that new editions and codices tend to shake up an army a lot. Probably a good part of your collection that was focused on what's good in 7th and index-8th is no longer top dog anymore, has not received necessary buffs or has even received nerfs. I know this can be very frustrating, but this doesn't mean orks in general no longer work. I hate the 8th edition green tide playstyle we had until now, and most of my collection was useless in actual games. I still wouldn't say index orks were terrible compared to other indices.
Jidmah wrote: The point is not to tell you that you are too new to the hobby, but that new editions and codices tend to shake up an army a lot. Probably a good part of your collection that was focused on what's good in 7th and index-8th is no longer top dog anymore, has not received necessary buffs or has even received nerfs. I know this can be very frustrating, but this doesn't mean orks in general no longer work.
I hate the 8th edition green tide playstyle we had until now, and most of my collection was useless in actual games. I still wouldn't say index orks were terrible compared to other indices.
thats funny! seriously, that got a chuckle from me. i came in the end of 6th, tasted a little bit of the nob biker squad, but then 7th happened. my love of orks focused around all our walkers. that was my collection. killakans/defdredds/gmorkanauts/stompa! it sucked since those units did suck (the dredmob formation just made them a little bit better). i actively tried to resist in becoming a 7th edition biker player but i gave in at the end, but i still brought stormboys and defkoptas. man, i love defkoptas (i still think they were great in 7th).
i know the state changes. 6th=boys b4 toys, 7th=toys b4 boys, 8th index=boys b4 toys, 8th codex=toys b4 boys it looks like.
i see the pattern. but in previous editions this change was brought on by pts changes and character buffs. in 8th though its seems the change is purely based on stratagems and not on the actual merits of the units themselves. our strats are good and all, but if the unit sucks then as soon as cp run out then the unit sucks. or if the unit is destroyed before you get to use any cp then i have a bunch of cp to use for nothing.
100 Pts Ork Shoota vs 100pts Astra Militarum at 12 inch range.
NB, this is a shooting contest, ignoring Orders, Strategems etc.
Orks do four unsaved wounds in one round, AM do 12 unsaved wounds. Average Leadership results in another six unsaved wounds for Orks, none for AM. Orks tabled.
Melee contest on Planet Billiard Table.
Same points, same units same conditions.
Orks charge, take two potential wounds from Overwatch, do 12 unsaved wounds. Average Leadership does another two wounds, four to six AM left.
AM charge, take one potential wound from overwatch, do three, probably unsaved wounds to Orks. Average Leadership means no further wounds.
Given that AM table the Orks in one out of two scenarios, and Orks cannot, I would suggest there is a problem with the points system.
YMMV.
And that's why you don't do analysis in a vacuum, because you're always going to mislead yourself - especially when it comes to force multipliers.
Ok mate whatever you say. Not entirely sure how your so certain that stuff like boyz and stormboyz will be worse from index to codex (I guess stuff like options between essentially +2 to movement, 6+++, and 6++ with tons of free re-rolls as well as stratagem support and better rules are just not worth a1 point per model increase and a larger base size). You're also ignoring all the other units which dropped in points. While it may not matter for some, do you honestly expect that every single bad index unit will still stay bad in the codex? You remind me of the eldar players who called their codex trash when it was first revealed. Just because the Ork codex isnt exactly what you wanted doesn't mean it's bad.
My prediction is that Orks to be a top tier army that will be heavily played by the time LVO rolls around. It will be interesting to see which one of us is right
I believe you are wrong on the first part, those buffs are not worth 1ppm since no other codex had to pay an increase for similar treatments. Also, the units that received price cuts didn't receive nearly enough to make them playable. Warbikes are meh at best even with a 4pt reduction. Keep in mind in 7th they were 18, so they are still 5ppm more then they were. Nobz and Biker Nobz are still hot garbage, hell the Biker nob is worse then the Meganobz and that is saying something. As for the 2nd part. You are 100% correct. Orkz will be top tier, but not because the codex is good, only because I can now teleport OVER 1/2 of my army on turn 2 to be right behind the enemies lines and have an 8' charge where I get to reroll 1 or both dice. Taking Evil Sunz means i will not be fielding bikes, nope, i'll be fielding tons of Boyz with choppas, a Gorkanaut or possibly some other stuff as well as Kommandos and Stormboyz so I can literally appear on turn 2 in charge range with over half my army (because i'll da jump a unit) and the charge range will be 8' with rerolls so better then 50% chance to get in combat.
To me the 1 point increase reeks of playtester recommendations. I can’t be sure of this true, but I have some logic to back this up. IMO you are comparing apples to oranges when you say “those buffs are not worth 1ppm since no other codex had to pay an increase for similar treatments.” The key here is that Orks where actually a pretty strong index army (you can check tournament results early in 8th to verify this if you like) and that is large part due to the units that got point increases. Heck these units allowed orks to still have a competive presence up until now despite being the second to last “real” army to receive a codex. Other armies came from different spots. Here’s an example that I know, Dark eldar. Clearly a top tier army now, but they where actually quite bad in the months leading up to their codex. Stuff like the talos, wychs, raiders, wracks and even somewhat warriors where all bad to various degrees. So GW gave them price reductions and codex updates like traits, stratagems, new special rules, etc, and now they all are top tier. The reason I bring this up to illustrate that giving both points reductions and codex buffs to a unit is often enough to turn garbage unto gold. Before the ork codex came out stuff like boyz and storm boys where already silver, so it makes sense that GW feels that they don’t need both points drops and codex buffs. I have a feeling they’re right, and that these units will see more not less competitive use.
Your warbiker example shines a light on the difference in mindset between the various posters on here. In your analysis of bikes you make no mention of kutlures or bike stratagems, leading me to believe you don’t value those things very highly. There seems to be 3 groups debating here. I and the people that agree with me, who think kultures, various stratagems, points drops, and new special rules will make the codex top tier. Your group who are unimpressed with the kultures, new special rules, and the units which decreased in points, but still believe the codex will be carried by tellyporting gimmicks. And the group who just think the codex is bad. Time will tell which one of us is right, but I feel history agrees more with me and my peers more than your side.
Ok mate whatever you say. Not entirely sure how your so certain that stuff like boyz and stormboyz will be worse from index to codex (I guess stuff like options between essentially +2 to movement, 6+++, and 6++ with tons of free re-rolls as well as stratagem support and better rules are just not worth a1 point per model increase and a larger base size). You're also ignoring all the other units which dropped in points. While it may not matter for some, do you honestly expect that every single bad index unit will still stay bad in the codex? You remind me of the eldar players who called their codex trash when it was first revealed. Just because the Ork codex isnt exactly what you wanted doesn't mean it's bad.
My prediction is that Orks to be a top tier army that will be heavily played by the time LVO rolls around. It will be interesting to see which one of us is right
I believe you are wrong on the first part, those buffs are not worth 1ppm since no other codex had to pay an increase for similar treatments. Also, the units that received price cuts didn't receive nearly enough to make them playable. Warbikes are meh at best even with a 4pt reduction. Keep in mind in 7th they were 18, so they are still 5ppm more then they were. Nobz and Biker Nobz are still hot garbage, hell the Biker nob is worse then the Meganobz and that is saying something. As for the 2nd part. You are 100% correct. Orkz will be top tier, but not because the codex is good, only because I can now teleport OVER 1/2 of my army on turn 2 to be right behind the enemies lines and have an 8' charge where I get to reroll 1 or both dice. Taking Evil Sunz means i will not be fielding bikes, nope, i'll be fielding tons of Boyz with choppas, a Gorkanaut or possibly some other stuff as well as Kommandos and Stormboyz so I can literally appear on turn 2 in charge range with over half my army (because i'll da jump a unit) and the charge range will be 8' with rerolls so better then 50% chance to get in combat.
To me the 1 point increase reeks of playtester recommendations. I can’t be sure of this true, but I have some logic to back this up. IMO you are comparing apples to oranges when you say “those buffs are not worth 1ppm since no other codex had to pay an increase for similar treatments.” The key here is that Orks where actually a pretty strong index army (you can check tournament results early in 8th to verify this if you like) and that is large part due to the units that got point increases. Heck these units allowed orks to still have a competive presence up until now despite being the second to last “real” army to receive a codex. Other armies came from different spots. Here’s an example that I know, Dark eldar. Clearly a top tier army now, but they where actually quite bad in the months leading up to their codex. Stuff like the talos, wychs, raiders, wracks and even somewhat warriors where all bad to various degrees. So GW gave them price reductions and codex updates like traits, stratagems, new special rules, etc, and now they all are top tier. The reason I bring this up to illustrate that giving both points reductions and codex buffs to a unit is often enough to turn garbage unto gold. Before the ork codex came out stuff like boyz and storm boys where already silver, so it makes sense that GW feels that they don’t need both points drops and codex buffs. I have a feeling they’re right, and that these units will see more not less competitive use.
Your warbiker example shines a light on the difference in mindset between the various posters on here. In your analysis of bikes you make no mention of kutlures or bike stratagems, leading me to believe you don’t value those things very highly. There seems to be 3 groups debating here. I and the people that agree with me, who think kultures, various stratagems, points drops, and new special rules will make the codex top tier. Your group who are unimpressed with the kultures, new special rules, and the units which decreased in points, but still believe the codex will be carried by tellyporting gimmicks. And the group who just think the codex is bad. Time will tell which one of us is right, but I feel history agrees more with me and my peers more than your side.
your 3 seems to be the 1. thinks the codex is bad, 2. those who think it is great, and 3 those that think it is trash.
I think a lot of us are within a different catagory. I think the codex is a mid tier codex, but as an competitive army orks are likely going to be low tier still. The codex is not great, it is not terrible. it will be playable; but it lacks the tools at the points to compete with imperial soup or ynarri. Therein lies the rub, we have some good units but lack a good unit for everything and so lacking the ability to pull a great unit for every role from several books will remain a fun army to play in casual and narrative play, will take some local level tournaments without issue, but we will be kept out of the top levels of play due to lack of allies. Now on that note it would have been hard to write one book that could have competed with allies in mind, if GW would just open up to the allies liek in 6th or 7th where everybody ahd a few I think we would have a real winner here.
100 Pts Ork Shoota vs 100pts Astra Militarum at 12 inch range.
NB, this is a shooting contest, ignoring Orders, Strategems etc.
Orks do four unsaved wounds in one round, AM do 12 unsaved wounds. Average Leadership results in another six unsaved wounds for Orks, none for AM. Orks tabled.
Melee contest on Planet Billiard Table.
Same points, same units same conditions.
Orks charge, take two potential wounds from Overwatch, do 12 unsaved wounds. Average Leadership does another two wounds, four to six AM left.
AM charge, take one potential wound from overwatch, do three, probably unsaved wounds to Orks. Average Leadership means no further wounds.
Given that AM table the Orks in one out of two scenarios, and Orks cannot, I would suggest there is a problem with the points system.
YMMV.
Yes, and everyone knows that Guardsmen are undercosted and will likely go to 5 ppm. Also, Boyz are better with Choppa's in the majority of situations. Shoota has it's niche, but generally ChoppaSlugga is better. This means 50% more attacks without other buffs, so 18 unsaved Guardsmen wounds. Average Leadership would then have inflicted another 2+6=8 wounds, tabling AM (100 points is 100/4=25 Guardsmen, you deal 26 wounds worth of damage).
Yes, and everyone knows that Guardsmen are undercosted and will likely go to 5 ppm.
the "everyone knows its bad/op and so its going to get a pts change" argument is all good and all. it relies on the hope that some at GW are smart and also have balance on mind.
all we need to look at is the stompa. im pretty sure everyone knew the stompa was trash before the codex, and many expected a good price decrease.
not only did we get barely any change to the stompa but GW actively showed they had no clue about its effectiveness in the codex with that stream they pulled.
so whenever someone says "everyone knows" then just point to the stompa.
GW either "downt know" and/or they dont have "balance in mind".
and the "the other superheavies will get changed in CA" is just more wishful thinking. knights are a bread winner for GW, i doubt they will bother to harm its sales with paying heed to a little concept called "balance".
geargutz wrote: all we need to look at is the stompa. im pretty sure everyone knew the stompa was trash before the codex, and many expected a good price decrease.
Even with the boosts it got(and nerf on degrade table) 600 pts would be pushing it. Knights are more or less equal toughness, shoot better, h2h comparable, better degrade table. And strategem/warlord trait/relic wise trumps them. Oh and unlike stompa knights aren't totally screwed in trait department requiring supreme commander detachment to have one.
After further though today on how to run orks and be competitive I keep running math and even running how my orks would do against certain things. given the rules, weapons, stategems etc.
1st . orks cannot deal with imperial knights. they do not have a can opener big enough and with the knights strategies they take so many points for the orks to deal with they can't do much else.
2nd properly bubblewrapped imperial guard around a Guilliman parkinglto are going to be giving orks a hard time.
3rd. more positively here orks are the paper to the custodes rock. see the same for slamguinius or space wolf wolf priests.
4th ynarri DE and eldar we have the tools to reach them now so its going to be a more even fight than it currently s. with the changes to ere we go being either one or both dice we can potentially do well.
5th tyranids most the competitive lists will come down to player skill and or lists being better against each other. once genesteeler cults is out though I think they will be ahead again btu time will tell.
6th monoguard we have no answer to we can try and get in but if they bubblewrap properly its going to be a bad time, see the same for admech.
7th tau and necrons seem to be in about the same place as us with some winning matchups and some losers. we all need allies but like tyranids its going to be down to player and lsit for actual advantages.
It's very possible Orks/gsc codexes were made with knowledge of changes in CA2 during their playtesting and design. If this is true it may not be entirely valid to compare Ork units to other units right now.
your 3 seems to be the 1. thinks the codex is bad, 2. those who think it is great, and 3 those that think it is trash.
I think a lot of us are within a different catagory. I think the codex is a mid tier codex, but as an competitive army orks are likely going to be low tier still. The codex is not great, it is not terrible. it will be playable; but it lacks the tools at the points to compete with imperial soup or ynarri. Therein lies the rub, we have some good units but lack a good unit for everything and so lacking the ability to pull a great unit for every role from several books will remain a fun army to play in casual and narrative play, will take some local level tournaments without issue, but we will be kept out of the top levels of play due to lack of allies. Now on that note it would have been hard to write one book that could have competed with allies in mind, if GW would just open up to the allies liek in 6th or 7th where everybody ahd a few I think we would have a real winner here.
Fair enough. I’m glad to see some people on the middle ground, I just made my point to address the people on the more extreme side of this issue.
Interesting that you bring up allies. While undoubtably a downside, I don’t think lack of allies are really going to hurt orks all that much. This is because allies are primarily used to shore up a faction’s weaknesses, but I don’t see many areas where orks struggle. The Traktor Kannon and dakka-dakka-dakka means that orks have scary shooting aginst everyone. Cheap troops like grots and boyz mean lots of chaff and easy command points. The changes to weirdboyz and the warp head stratagem means you have a strong physic presence as wellx
Orks also threaten early. I actually think a single large biker squad with a deffkilla watrike might be really good, as the wartrike has an average dice threat range of around 32-33 inches (14+2 Kulture+ (6 +1 advance and Kulture )+ [8- 10 charge from ere we go and the kulture) The bikes can also really benefit from -1 to hit stratagem. With stuff like this, da jump, and tellyport, orks have a ton of mobility.
Orks also can assult and take a hit, as expected.
So IMO orks can play in all phases of the game, meaning they need allies less
Than say necrons and tau, who only really use shooting. I believe the index struggled more because it lacked stratagems and Kultures rather than because it had no allies.
blaktoof wrote: It's very possible Orks/gsc codexes were made with knowledge of changes in CA2 during their playtesting and design. If this is true it may not be entirely valid to compare Ork units to other units right now.
Here’s hoping you’re right. The comparison between Lootas and Primaris Hellblasters is worse.
Nightlord1987 wrote: I'm very excited about this book, but I may just wait until Chapter Approved (and alot of paint) before playing them.
Knights, Guard, Ad-mech, and Deathwatch are all over the tables at my local game shop.
My other main force is admech, they shouldn't pose any real problems to orks. Obviously watch out for their dragoons and the conqueror doctrina (those exploding tasers) & the kastelans need to be tied up pronto but admech is almost exclusively T3 troops and T7 vehicles, they'll fold. Hard.
As far as competitive play goes, if your faction doesn’t have an answer to the meta lists you aren’t at the table.
As goofy smiley said earlier - we lack an answer to knights, particularly when they are screened by cheap, efficient chaff.
I think we’ll want to run brigades where possible and I agree every list will have a contingent of 3x10 Grots. Can someone clarify exactly when the grot shields stratagem comes into play and if there are any limitations for me?
I’ve listened to a lot of reviews of the codex now and I feel that there’s a light at the end of our fungal tunnel. The key will be selecting a play style and going all out on it I think. I have noticed some combinations that seem particularly savage but as always we’ll need redundancy. I have no points efficient answer to knights that isn’t a tailored skew list.
An Actual Englishman wrote: As far as competitive play goes, if your faction doesn’t have an answer to the meta lists you aren’t at the table.
As goofy smiley said earlier - we lack an answer to knights, particularly when they are screened by cheap, efficient chaff.
I think we’ll want to run brigades where possible and I agree every list will have a contingent of 3x10 Grots. Can someone clarify exactly when the grot shields stratagem comes into play and if there are any limitations for me?
I’ve listened to a lot of reviews of the codex now and I feel that there’s a light at the end of our fungal tunnel. The key will be selecting a play style and going all out on it I think. I have noticed some combinations that seem particularly savage but as always we’ll need redundancy. I have no points efficient answer to knights that isn’t a tailored skew list.
An Actual Englishman wrote: As far as competitive play goes, if your faction doesn’t have an answer to the meta lists you aren’t at the table.
As goofy smiley said earlier - we lack an answer to knights, particularly when they are screened by cheap, efficient chaff.
I think we’ll want to run brigades where possible and I agree every list will have a contingent of 3x10 Grots. Can someone clarify exactly when the grot shields stratagem comes into play and if there are any limitations for me?
I’ve listened to a lot of reviews of the codex now and I feel that there’s a light at the end of our fungal tunnel. The key will be selecting a play style and going all out on it I think. I have noticed some combinations that seem particularly savage but as always we’ll need redundancy. I have no points efficient answer to knights that isn’t a tailored skew list.
i would recommend the MWG codex review. MWG is often times too 'hyped' by new stuff, but steve (the reviewer) is pretty good at atleast arguing why he thinks stuff is good (instead of just blabbeling on how good that 'theoratically' sounds)
but to answer your question:
RedNoak wrote: its the 2nd option. pick a unit that is shot at, if there are gretchin within 6" and they are closer to the shooting unit, for the rest of the phase you roll a dice for every UNSAVED wound. on a 2+ the gretchin unit suffers a mortal wound instead. 1CP works only on infantry models (i think)
An Actual Englishman wrote: As far as competitive play goes, if your faction doesn’t have an answer to the meta lists you aren’t at the table.
As goofy smiley said earlier - we lack an answer to knights, particularly when they are screened by cheap, efficient chaff.
I think we’ll want to run brigades where possible and I agree every list will have a contingent of 3x10 Grots. Can someone clarify exactly when the grot shields stratagem comes into play and if there are any limitations for me?
I’ve listened to a lot of reviews of the codex now and I feel that there’s a light at the end of our fungal tunnel. The key will be selecting a play style and going all out on it I think. I have noticed some combinations that seem particularly savage but as always we’ll need redundancy. I have no points efficient answer to knights that isn’t a tailored skew list.
i would recommend the MWG codex review. MWG is often times too 'hyped' by new stuff, but steve (the reviewer) is pretty good at atleast arguing why he thinks stuff is good (instead of just blabbeling on how good that 'theoratically' sounds)
but to answer your question:
RedNoak wrote: its the 2nd option. pick a unit that is shot at, if there are gretchin within 6" and they are closer to the shooting unit, for the rest of the phase you roll a dice for every UNSAVED wound. on a 2+ the gretchin unit suffers a mortal wound instead. 1CP works only on infantry models (i think)
Yeah Steve is pretty good. I think he is overestimating how good ork shooting with bad moons will be, but atleast he thinks the Stompa and mek workshop are garbage, unlike some other reviewers.
Yeah Steve is good for reviews. He has a good knowledge of the game and a good mind for it. The only one who's opinion I would dismiss would be Dave. He is a super cool guy, but not focused on competitive at all and does not really care about it.
Anyone who says the workshop is good immediately makes me weep.
An Actual Englishman wrote: As far as competitive play goes, if your faction doesn’t have an answer to the meta lists you aren’t at the table.
As goofy smiley said earlier - we lack an answer to knights, particularly when they are screened by cheap, efficient chaff.
I think we’ll want to run brigades where possible and I agree every list will have a contingent of 3x10 Grots. Can someone clarify exactly when the grot shields stratagem comes into play and if there are any limitations for me?
I’ve listened to a lot of reviews of the codex now and I feel that there’s a light at the end of our fungal tunnel. The key will be selecting a play style and going all out on it I think. I have noticed some combinations that seem particularly savage but as always we’ll need redundancy. I have no points efficient answer to knights that isn’t a tailored skew list.
i would recommend the MWG codex review. MWG is often times too 'hyped' by new stuff, but steve (the reviewer) is pretty good at atleast arguing why he thinks stuff is good (instead of just blabbeling on how good that 'theoratically' sounds)
but to answer your question:
RedNoak wrote: its the 2nd option. pick a unit that is shot at, if there are gretchin within 6" and they are closer to the shooting unit, for the rest of the phase you roll a dice for every UNSAVED wound. on a 2+ the gretchin unit suffers a mortal wound instead. 1CP works only on infantry models (i think)
Further question regarding strategem. Is it the original gretchin unit or any gretchin unit? If any then fine 3x10 works. If original then 3x10 is pretty much one shot protection. You trigger it, grots take some wounds, then enemy shoots some chaff clearing stuff at the gretchins wiping out them(of course depending on what is behind he will shoot the grots to begin with. Like trying to protect mega nobs with this. Not happening in practice. Weapons good at killing gretchin are bad at killing mega nobs so order will be grots first, then meganobz. Grot screen as such is most useful for protecting stuff like lootas and tank bustas). In that case you want 30 strong blocks to make it at least take some effort to remove the screen first. Grots were already pretty good in codex and now replaced boys as go-to unit for non-deep striking units so 30 strong grot mobs aren't even really a bad thing anyway!
An Actual Englishman wrote: As far as competitive play goes, if your faction doesn’t have an answer to the meta lists you aren’t at the table.
As goofy smiley said earlier - we lack an answer to knights, particularly when they are screened by cheap, efficient chaff.
I think we’ll want to run brigades where possible and I agree every list will have a contingent of 3x10 Grots. Can someone clarify exactly when the grot shields stratagem comes into play and if there are any limitations for me?
I’ve listened to a lot of reviews of the codex now and I feel that there’s a light at the end of our fungal tunnel. The key will be selecting a play style and going all out on it I think. I have noticed some combinations that seem particularly savage but as always we’ll need redundancy. I have no points efficient answer to knights that isn’t a tailored skew list.
What looks like it will be good for Deffskullz? I've always favoured MSU with lots of vehicles and that doesn't seem like a bad start.
Shokkjump Dragsta seems ideally suited, other buggies less so.
Spannas with kustom mega blastas might actually be worth taking in burna units. I'm considering dreads with double KMBs or KMB / rokkit too.
Big Trakks or Meka-dreads with big zzappas seem decent enough.
Deffkoptas look like they will be OK with either rokkits or KMBs (if they are still an option). Killsaws might even be worth it.
Wazbom Blastajets are at least mostly safe to use their mega-kannons now. Shame I just built mine with tellyport blastas.
Small units of bikers or kommandos get little benefit with shooting, but being able to re-roll one power klaw attack is nice and having priority for seizing objectives makes them pretty good.
okay, this is weird, but wondering what combo is better. let me compare these 2.
in one corner we have the scrapjet. its got bigshootas and a variety or rokets but also probably one of the better melee profiles of the new buggies short of the defkilla. it has the same ram as the boosta blastas (for mortal wounds in charges) and its drill gives it st8, so it pretty much has a pk.
we are looking at 110pts
in the other corner we have 2 normal warbikers and suported by a defkopta with twin rokets and a killsaw (an option that looks like its no longer available wargear).
thats a total of 115pts.
this is a weird comparison but if you had to compare the scrapjet to the squad of warbikers and the defkopta then were do each stand. they all equal to similar wounds but the scrapjet is t6.
the defkopta flys so thats a bonus and works with a roll of shoot charge retreat shoot, but the scrapjet would have to be bloodaxe to get closer to that flexible role. also the defkopta can do a type of board edge deepstrike.
the bikes provide 12 st5 shots but the scrapjets 12 st5 shots (i think its 2 twin bigshootas) are longer range. also the wing rokets and roket canon will do more then what the defkopta brings with its kopta rokets. it looks like the scrapjet is better shooting,
the koptas killsaw only has 2 attacks. the scrapjet not only gets d3 mortal wounds on a 4+ on the charge but also has 4 attacks for its drill.
while the defkopta has more flexibly and warbikers are warbikers, its not as effective as the scrapjet. the roll of the scrapjet (when pared with bloodaxes) is to shoots its s5 at chaff and then all its rokets at any large moving object, then it charges and uses its impressive melee against said big targets. then promptly pops out of combat to either shoots its rokets back into the target or charge again for trying to get those mortal wounds and drill attacks.
this seems like a weird comparison, but i like this type of unit profile. in 7th i liked assaulting the enemy with roket defkoptas with saws, and while in the codex those are probably not possible (it sounds like we are losing the saw upgrade) and its not efficient with its damage and pt cost. the scrapjet will fill that roll quite nicely.
pair the bloodaxe scrapjet in a list with badmoon or deathskull shockjummpdragstas for some serious firepower (and the scrapjets go in for the melee kill). with enough separate squad models (lets think around 9 total of these 2 buggies) against knights can be quite threatening. use grots for battalion cp battery and use whatever else to help screen or bring anti fly traktor kannons. bring a deffkila wartrike to get better charges with the scrapjets.
geargutz wrote: okay, this is weird, but wondering what combo is better. let me compare these 2.
in one corner we have the scrapjet. its got bigshootas and a variety or rokets but also probably one of the better melee profiles of the new buggies short of the defkilla. it has the same ram as the boosta blastas (for mortal wounds in charges) and its drill gives it st8, so it pretty much has a pk.
we are looking at 110pts
in the other corner we have 2 normal warbikers and suported by a defkopta with twin rokets and a killsaw (an option that looks like its no longer available wargear).
thats a total of 115pts.
this is a weird comparison but if you had to compare the scrapjet to the squad of warbikers and the defkopta then were do each stand. they all equal to similar wounds but the scrapjet is t6.
the defkopta flys so thats a bonus and works with a roll of shoot charge retreat shoot, but the scrapjet would have to be bloodaxe to get closer to that flexible role. also the defkopta can do a type of board edge deepstrike.
the bikes provide 12 st5 shots but the scrapjets 12 st5 shots (i think its 2 twin bigshootas) are longer range. also the wing rokets and roket canon will do more then what the defkopta brings with its kopta rokets. it looks like the scrapjet is better shooting,
the koptas killsaw only has 2 attacks. the scrapjet not only gets d3 mortal wounds on a 4+ on the charge but also has 4 attacks for its drill.
while the defkopta has more flexibly and warbikers are warbikers, its not as effective as the scrapjet. the roll of the scrapjet (when pared with bloodaxes) is to shoots its s5 at chaff and then all its rokets at any large moving object, then it charges and uses its impressive melee against said big targets. then promptly pops out of combat to either shoots its rokets back into the target or charge again for trying to get those mortal wounds and drill attacks.
this seems like a weird comparison, but i like this type of unit profile. in 7th i liked assaulting the enemy with roket defkoptas with saws, and while in the codex those are probably not possible (it sounds like we are losing the saw upgrade) and its not efficient with its damage and pt cost. the scrapjet will fill that roll quite nicely.
pair the bloodaxe scrapjet in a list with badmoon or deathskull shockjummpdragstas for some serious firepower (and the scrapjets go in for the melee kill). with enough separate squad models (lets think around 9 total of these 2 buggies) against knights can be quite threatening. use grots for battalion cp battery and use whatever else to help screen or bring anti fly traktor kannons. bring a deffkila wartrike to get better charges with the scrapjets.
what do you guys think?
Sounds good to me, I thought about something similar. Apparently the wing rokkits (or maybe the entire model?) also gets +1 to hit against vehicles, so the shooting really isn't something to scoff at. The only sad part about the model is that it would be better without the four big shootas.
In general, you probably want to shoot with them after falling back, since their melee attack are only hitting on 4+, which is not that much better than their shooting - assuming there is something left to fall back from.
My plan is to use three scrapjets, a wartrike, a morkanaut and a pair of bonekrushas as the core of my army (about 1100 points). The morkanaut will probably be drawing fire from and/or protecting the jets and wagons with its KFF while the wartrike ensures T2 charges. Dakkajets or gunwagons or battlewagons with flash gits will be clearing a way for them to reach hard targets. Even a knight will not be standing long when hit with three drills and two deff rollas.
That's the plan anyways, I'll see if it actually works.
Jidmah wrote: Sounds good to me, I thought about something similar. Apparently the wing rokkits (or maybe the entire model?) also gets +1 to hit against vehicles, so the shooting really isn't something to scoff at. The only sad part about the model is that it would be better without the four big shootas.
In general, you probably want to shoot with them after falling back, since their melee attack are only hitting on 4+, which is not that much better than their shooting - assuming there is something left to fall back from.
My plan is to use three scrapjets, a wartrike, a morkanaut and a pair of bonekrushas as the core of my army (about 1100 points). The morkanaut will probably be drawing fire from and/or protecting the jets and wagons with its KFF while the wartrike ensures T2 charges. Dakkajets or gunwagons or battlewagons with flash gits will be clearing a way for them to reach hard targets. Even a knight will not be standing long when hit with three drills and two deff rollas.
That's the plan anyways, I'll see if it actually works.
I'm pretty sure it's just the wing rokkits that has that modifier. Mind you, it's +1 to hit vehicles but -1 to hit everything else. So big daemons and tyranids are suboptimal targets with it.
An Actual Englishman wrote: As far as competitive play goes, if your faction doesn’t have an answer to the meta lists you aren’t at the table.
As goofy smiley said earlier - we lack an answer to knights, particularly when they are screened by cheap, efficient chaff.
I think we’ll want to run brigades where possible and I agree every list will have a contingent of 3x10 Grots. Can someone clarify exactly when the grot shields stratagem comes into play and if there are any limitations for me?
I’ve listened to a lot of reviews of the codex now and I feel that there’s a light at the end of our fungal tunnel. The key will be selecting a play style and going all out on it I think. I have noticed some combinations that seem particularly savage but as always we’ll need redundancy. I have no points efficient answer to knights that isn’t a tailored skew list.
i would recommend the MWG codex review. MWG is often times too 'hyped' by new stuff, but steve (the reviewer) is pretty good at atleast arguing why he thinks stuff is good (instead of just blabbeling on how good that 'theoratically' sounds)
but to answer your question:
RedNoak wrote: its the 2nd option. pick a unit that is shot at, if there are gretchin within 6" and they are closer to the shooting unit, for the rest of the phase you roll a dice for every UNSAVED wound. on a 2+ the gretchin unit suffers a mortal wound instead. 1CP works only on infantry models (i think)
Further question regarding strategem. Is it the original gretchin unit or any gretchin unit? If any then fine 3x10 works. If original then 3x10 is pretty much one shot protection. You trigger it, grots take some wounds, then enemy shoots some chaff clearing stuff at the gretchins wiping out them(of course depending on what is behind he will shoot the grots to begin with. Like trying to protect mega nobs with this. Not happening in practice. Weapons good at killing gretchin are bad at killing mega nobs so order will be grots first, then meganobz. Grot screen as such is most useful for protecting stuff like lootas and tank bustas). In that case you want 30 strong blocks to make it at least take some effort to remove the screen first. Grots were already pretty good in codex and now replaced boys as go-to unit for non-deep striking units so 30 strong grot mobs aren't even really a bad thing anyway!
A gretchin unit within 6".
Bad Moons back line and Snakebites front line will be one of the hardest armies to shift. And then some Evil Sunz Gorks in the tellyporta for counterpunch and a trike to hide amongst the gretchin.
Not sure I have all the points right, but this comes in under 2K and 16 CP. Mob the Lootas which greatly increases the force multipliers used on them. Gettting to them...or anything in this army requires you kill buckets of gretchin. Of course you can protect only one unit with the shield, which is why Mob Up is so crucial, but also there isn't much for your opponent to shoot otherwise until the nauts are on the table.
The biggest problem with this list is spacing and keeping stuff within their bubbles. Also a painboy for direct attacks on gretchin wouldn't be terrible.
BAD MOONS - Battalion
Big Mek, SAG [84]
Weirdboy [62]
2 x 10 Lootas [340]
3 x 10 Shoota Boyz [210]
3 x Traktor Kannon [135]
Krusha wrote: I have a question about the new speedmob rule (apologies if this is a noob question).
Everyone seems to think it’s a really good thing that you have to treat squads of 2-3 as separate individual units. Why?
Wouldn’t stratagems go further if applied to entire units?
Both things are true.
Being separate means you don't need coherency and you can't lose a model to morale. And if they do explode they don't need to be nearby. The flexibility of board control is probably the most beneficial to tag objectives and not get stuck in a terrain funnel.
Dang, every time I've saved up the money to buy a Gargantuan Squiggoth (~6 times over the last couple years) it has been temporarily unavailable. I got the funds and went to check again today and it's gone from the website entirely. I really hope it's not gone forever.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Dang, every time I've saved up the money to buy a Gargantuan Squiggoth (~6 times over the last couple years) it has been temporarily unavailable. I got the funds and went to check again today and it's gone from the website entirely. I really hope it's not gone forever.
It is.
I can only assume it was a nightmare to produce and they only sold a couple a year.
I was hoping to get one for apocalypse, but no.
I wonder if they destroyed the mold or if they are keeping it on a shelf somewhere.
I asked them about it around a year ago, not long before I bought mine...and I was also told then that they were reworking the mould, although it was still there then, just labelled as "no longer available"...I don't remember ever just not seeing it there...that's...worrying. :/
...while I was cleaning/prepping mine, I did find quite a few little pieces of pale blue silicone (I think?...it was rubbery) stuck in the recesses...which I assume were pieces of the mould...so I have to imagine they'd need to make a new mould fairly often...
This is probably one of the best reviews - for the sole reason that one of the two guys actually plays orks and they actually go back to verify whether they have understood the codex correctly.
while it sucks that killakans cannot use clan traits, if you realy wanted to run them then there are a few things they can get buffs on. wartrike. the wartrike can still help kans advance and charge (but since kans bs goes doen with advancing then its best to have cheap bigshoota kans be the chargers since they dont rely on their wpn as much).
have a snakebite be your warlord. have him run along your kans and with the snakebite warlord trait and they will never worry about moral again (from what i hear its autopass moral on any gretchin unit,lol).
i have a lot of kans, a full list of them can be threatening to any opponent. i went to a tournament recently and i was surprised by how many of my opponents were intimidated by 21 of the old buggies/wartracks. the list i brought was weighty with wounds but expensive and was more bark then bite. but still, it was fun to scare more competitive builds like admek and eldar. that is the inspiration for this list. flood the board with models and watch my opponent squirm.
so a list based around grots units cant rely on all the cool strats and traits, but it could have its own benefits by being very numerous. killkans with bighsootas x18 (810pts) trakorkanon x18 (810pts) MAbigmek kff/snakebite with warlord trait (119) MAbigmek kff (119) wartrike (120)
1978 pts total. since you wont b e using almost any fo the stratagems you wont to dedicate pts for a battalion, just get a spearhead or 2. i cant bring anymore mekguns or kans becasue that is the max of any i can bring with the rule of 3.
if you want to get fancy with kan upgrades then drop a kff mabigmek (if your willing then replace all the meks with index kffmeks)(maybe try to get a waagh banner or 2 in there). with kff support and not worrying about moral with a good back line gun unit this would be realy tough to get rid of and give your opponent a fright. yeah sure you'll have to footslog, but it would be interesting to try out. ill give it a try against my friend who plays deldar and ill let you guys know (though most likely on the tactics ork thread). not admitedly the worst thing about this list is that all kans can explode. might be good to at least have some cp to reroll explode results if your kan was exploded before they got to the enemy.
i doubt this list will top any tournament, but i think it will be fun to run and might work in a less competitive meta. the decrease in pts of the kilkan helps this list. and while the mekgun was kinda nerfed , it still has its gems like the traktor kannon once again becoming the ultimate antifly wpn (dedicate all traktors to shoot at the biggest shooting threat to the kans if possible).
also, quick thought. if traktor kannons autohit everything (let me know if that was confirmed) then they dont care about moving and shooting since they will always be hitting their target....nasty.
This is probably one of the best reviews - for the sole reason that one of the two guys actually plays orks and they actually go back to verify whether they have understood the codex correctly.
Yeah, if youre talking about Owen (the guy on the left), he used to work at MWG when Dan was there so im sure thats where he got his love of Orks from. I miss Dan, that beard and WAAAAAAAAGH! is glorious :(
geargutz wrote: while it sucks that killakans cannot use clan traits, if you realy wanted to run them then there are a few things they can get buffs on.
wartrike. the wartrike can still help kans advance and charge (but since kans bs goes doen with advancing then its best to have cheap bigshoota kans be the chargers since they dont rely on their wpn as much).
I don't quite understand why you would opt out of rokkits, which are an assault weapon just like the big shoota.
so a list based around grots units cant rely on all the cool strats and traits, but it could have its own benefits by being very numerous.
killkans with bighsootas x18 (810pts)
trakorkanon x18 (810pts)
MAbigmek kff/snakebite with warlord trait (119)
MAbigmek kff (119)
wartrike (120)
I think you're over valuing the traktor kannons. You also need something to guard those mek gunz.
Waagh Banner triggers on Kultur so no bonus for Kanz.
killkans with bighsootas x18 (810pts)
trakorkanon x18 (810pts)
MAbigmek kff/snakebite with warlord trait (119)
MAbigmek kff (119)
wartrike (120)
Use smasha guns instead of traktors. 558 points for just as much damage (except a little less vs. flyers with invuls)...and vastly more against things without invuls.
killkans with bighsootas x18 (810pts)
trakorkanon x18 (810pts)
MAbigmek kff/snakebite with warlord trait (119)
MAbigmek kff (119)
wartrike (120)
Use smasha guns instead of traktors. 558 points for just as much damage (except a little less vs. flyers with invuls)...and vastly more against things without invuls.
i would mix up smashas and traktors. sometimes an autohit is just what you need. maybe a 3:1 ratio
geargutz wrote: while it sucks that killakans cannot use clan traits, if you realy wanted to run them then there are a few things they can get buffs on.
wartrike. the wartrike can still help kans advance and charge (but since kans bs goes doen with advancing then its best to have cheap bigshoota kans be the chargers since they dont rely on their wpn as much).
I don't quite understand why you would opt out of rokkits, which are an assault weapon just like the big shoota.
so a list based around grots units cant rely on all the cool strats and traits, but it could have its own benefits by being very numerous.
killkans with bighsootas x18 (810pts)
trakorkanon x18 (810pts)
MAbigmek kff/snakebite with warlord trait (119)
MAbigmek kff (119)
wartrike (120)
I think you're over valuing the traktor kannons. You also need something to guard those mek gunz.
Waagh Banner triggers on Kultur so no bonus for Kanz.
i suggested the bigshoota becasue its the cheaper option. and if you want to get into melee as soon as possible and are constantly advancing then there is little point taking rokkits when your lowering your BS like that. this is all so you can do charges with the wartrike. of course if you want more shooting focused killakans then you would take rokkits. its just a little more pricey.
as far as i know if your force is battleforged then everything gets kulture. its just that kans wont get the benefits of the kulture trait, but if they have the keyword for kulture then they should be buffed by the waaaghbanner. i could be wrong about this. doesn't the stompa not have kulture(and it only gets the kulture when in a supreme cmd detachment)?
i chose the traktor kannons becasue from what ive seen they are by far the best option for mekguns. if mekguns are not going to get any clan trait then we might as well pick the best wargear. autohitting at 48inches with an anti tank wpn sounds realy good to me. but this is still based on the knowledge from the reviews, i might change my mind when i get the codex.
as far as i know if your force is battleforged then everything gets kulture. its just that kans wont get the benefits of the kulture trait, but if they have the keyword for kulture then they should be buffed by the waaaghbanner. i could be wrong about this. doesn't the stompa not have kulture(and it only gets the kulture when in a supreme cmd detachment)?
You could be right about that.
i chose the traktor kannons becasue from what ive seen they are by far the best option for mekguns. if mekguns are not going to get any clan trait then we might as well pick the best wargear. autohitting at 48inches with an anti tank wpn sounds realy good to me. but this is still based on the knowledge from the reviews, i might change my mind when i get the codex.
I mean they're awesome and looking at the SoCal lists replete with Eldar fliers people would be crazy to not have at least 3 of them. I'm just not certain they're spammable to that degree.
geargutz wrote: i chose the traktor kannons becasue from what ive seen they are by far the best option for mekguns. if mekguns are not going to get any clan trait then we might as well pick the best wargear. autohitting at 48inches with an anti tank wpn sounds realy good to me. but this is still based on the knowledge from the reviews, i might change my mind when i get the codex.
Yes, but why just autohit with anti-tank when you can do better?
Autohit generates 1.00 hits at AP-2.
Smasha Guns generate 1.16 hits (because of DDD) at AP-4. Except against flyers or other -1 to hit.
Smashas wound better on T6 or less, Traktors T7 or higher...although the difference is minor.
so i have the november whitedwarf. and there is an battle report between tau and codex orks. this post is for those who haven't read it yet or those who want to discus it.
here are the lists (was done in PL, no wargear was listed)
Spoiler:
orks,batalion detach,badmoons,5cp =wartrike,super cybork body,warlord trait-the best armor teeth can buy =bigmek in megarmor,kff =boyz,3 groups of 10 =3 trucks =meganobz x5 =meganobz x4 =1 boosta blasta,1 shockdragsta,1 snazzwagon =1 battlewagon =1morkanaut kff,1 gorkanaut =dakajet =wazbomblastajet witj smasha gun and tellyport blastas auxilary detachments,-3 cp =1scrapjet,1squigbuggy,1bonebreaker 145 PL total, said the he had 5cp total but because he brought 3 aux detachments he should've only had 2cp
tau,battalion detach,viorla sept,5cp (i wont bother with all the details of tau list) =commander in crisis suit (warlord) =etherial on hover drone =2x firewarrior breacher teams of 10 =firewarrior strike team of 10 =devilfish =x3 crisis suits =x3 crisis bodyguards =riptide with the high output burst rifle =x2 ghostkeels =firesuit marksman =x2 boradsides with rail guns =hammerhead gunship with railgun =3 sniper drones superhvy aux detachment =stormsurge 143 PL, 9cps (had a warlord thing that gave 1 extra cp, not sure where the others came from)
its a kustom scenario. there is a mekshop on the board and the orks only have to get 1 of 2 secret ork vehicles to use the mekshop and then make it to the tau's board edge and they would win (the 2 secret vehicles were the battlewagon and the squigbuggy).
so, the ork player has his flyers in reserves, everything else deploys in transports on the line...and his wartrike is the closest model as far as i can tell. luckily the orks had 1st turn. all ork units rush forward. despite being badmoons the ork player focuses on speed...im not kidding.
the article said this "the orks gave little thought to shooting the tau, preferring instead to drive straight at them." this is not going to go well.
tau 1st turn was spent mostly shooting at the warttrike since the the ork player charged it as far as possible towards the tau gunline.with the combo of a 4up invul and a 5up fnp the wartrike suffered a whole round of shooting from half the tau army. very survivable but only had 1 wound left. ended up killing himself from overwatch in the charge in the next turn.
the next few turns go like this. tau shoot, things die, ork player does little to keep his units within the range of the 2 kffs he has. he gets a few units in combat and or course he wrecks because hes fighting tau. alot of the orks shooting is focused toward the worst units to try to shoot at...all the stealth suits/ghostkeels.
ork player is able to get one of his surviviing secret vehicles in contact with the mekshop (squigbuggy) but since the objective is to use the mekshop then the squigbuggy had to spend a turn doing nothing and thus got shot up when the tau player could deduce that was the secret ork vehicle.
end of round 5. well, no surprise the ork player is almost tabled. tau win.
some thoughts. ork player obviosly wanted to play evilsunzs but badmons was the only things availabe at the studio that also had all the new buggies to test out.
tau players most valuable model was the stormsurge.
orks players mvp was the wazbom blastajet.....no surprise the only thing that performed well was a shooting focused unit in a badmoons list...and the tau never shot at it. (it killed a ghostkeel after its drones were destroyed, and it chipped off the last wounds on a riptide).
i dont remember any mention of any ork stratagems used in the whole battle report, not surprising since technically he barely had any cp. all the while they talked about the tau player using cool tau strats.
so yet again a battle report that utterly fails at hyping me up for the orks. without utilizing any stratagems and barely using the clan trait it was like index orks with some new models and some pts decreases vrs codex tau played by an obviously more competent player.
geargutz wrote: i chose the traktor kannons becasue from what ive seen they are by far the best option for mekguns. if mekguns are not going to get any clan trait then we might as well pick the best wargear. autohitting at 48inches with an anti tank wpn sounds realy good to me. but this is still based on the knowledge from the reviews, i might change my mind when i get the codex.
Yes, but why just autohit with anti-tank when you can do better?
Autohit generates 1.00 hits at AP-2.
Smasha Guns generate 1.16 hits (because of DDD) at AP-4. Except against flyers or other -1 to hit.
Smashas wound better on T6 or less, Traktors T7 or higher...although the difference is minor.
Biggest difference is the price.
The -1 hit difference is big and T6 or less...That's not really the target you would generally be aiming for except when talking about flyers. Orks needs help either dealing with chaff to clear them on T1 for deep strikers or big tough things like knights.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Booger ork wrote: Just a note on that, he was correct to get 5CP due to the +3 for being battleorged
Ditto for tau. 5+3+1 from trait=9.
Either way what a joke battle report! WD reports generally aren't useful but sheesh this was pretty spectacular lowball with scenario that was custom made to ensure orks lose. Pretty much any army would lose with that scenario when facing shooty army...Especially shooty army with long range guns(army that relies on 12" shooting would be bit easier).
So much for GW rigging WD battle reports so that new army always wins (which is albeit dubious claim. When I bought every WD in early 2000's for several years I kept track and came up pretty much dead even did newest army(or army with newest big release) win or not. Albeit non-wins also included draws)
Custom scenarios fun but this one was abysmally bad even for GW standard and they aren't good scenario designers as the rulebook scenarios show. But even then one would have expected better. And then add in painted model issue(studio army being bad moon which is bad clan for this scenario) and need to fit every new buggy and...well result was foregone conclusion.
geargutz wrote: so i have the november whitedwarf. and there is an battle report between tau and codex orks. this post is for those who haven't read it yet or those who want to discus it.
here are the lists (was done in PL, no wargear was listed)
Spoiler:
orks,batalion detach,badmoons,5cp
=wartrike,super cybork body,warlord trait-the best armor teeth can buy
=bigmek in megarmor,kff =boyz,3 groups of 10
=3 trucks
=meganobz x5
=meganobz x4
=1 boosta blasta,1 shockdragsta,1 snazzwagon
=1 battlewagon
=1morkanaut kff,1 gorkanaut
=dakajet
=wazbomblastajet witj smasha gun and tellyport blastas
auxilary detachments,-3 cp =1scrapjet,1squigbuggy,1bonebreaker
145 PL total, said the he had 5cp total but because he brought 3 aux detachments he should've only had 2cp
tau,battalion detach,viorla sept,5cp (i wont bother with all the details of tau list)
=commander in crisis suit (warlord)
=etherial on hover drone
=2x firewarrior breacher teams of 10
=firewarrior strike team of 10
=devilfish
=x3 crisis suits
=x3 crisis bodyguards
=riptide with the high output burst rifle
=x2 ghostkeels
=firesuit marksman
=x2 boradsides with rail guns
=hammerhead gunship with railgun
=3 sniper drones
superhvy aux detachment
=stormsurge
143 PL, 9cps (had a warlord thing that gave 1 extra cp, not sure where the others came from)
its a kustom scenario. there is a mekshop on the board and the orks only have to get 1 of 2 secret ork vehicles to use the mekshop and then make it to the tau's board edge and they would win (the 2 secret vehicles were the battlewagon and the squigbuggy).
so, the ork player has his flyers in reserves, everything else deploys in transports on the line...and his wartrike is the closest model as far as i can tell. luckily the orks had 1st turn. all ork units rush forward. despite being badmoons the ork player focuses on speed...im not kidding.
the article said this "the orks gave little thought to shooting the tau, preferring instead to drive straight at them." this is not going to go well.
tau 1st turn was spent mostly shooting at the warttrike since the the ork player charged it as far as possible towards the tau gunline.with the combo of a 4up invul and a 5up fnp the wartrike suffered a whole round of shooting from half the tau army. very survivable but only had 1 wound left. ended up killing himself from overwatch in the charge in the next turn.
the next few turns go like this. tau shoot, things die, ork player does little to keep his units within the range of the 2 kffs he has. he gets a few units in combat and or course he wrecks because hes fighting tau. alot of the orks shooting is focused toward the worst units to try to shoot at...all the stealth suits/ghostkeels.
ork player is able to get one of his surviviing secret vehicles in contact with the mekshop (squigbuggy) but since the objective is to use the mekshop then the squigbuggy had to spend a turn doing nothing and thus got shot up when the tau player could deduce that was the secret ork vehicle.
end of round 5. well, no surprise the ork player is almost tabled. tau win.
some thoughts. ork player obviosly wanted to play evilsunzs but badmons was the only things availabe at the studio that also had all the new buggies to test out.
tau players most valuable model was the stormsurge.
orks players mvp was the wazbom blastajet.....no surprise the only thing that performed well was a shooting focused unit in a badmoons list...and the tau never shot at it. (it killed a ghostkeel after its drones were destroyed, and it chipped off the last wounds on a riptide).
i dont remember any mention of any ork stratagems used in the whole battle report, not surprising since technically he barely had any cp. all the while they talked about the tau player using cool tau strats.
so yet again a battle report that utterly fails at hyping me up for the orks. without utilizing any stratagems and barely using the clan trait it was like index orks with some new models and some pts decreases vrs codex tau played by an obviously more competent player.
tbh if you're taking three traktor cannons you may as well take a fair few more. Otherwise they'll be ignored by non-flier armies and instrantly focused down against eldar and friends.
Just to clarify are smasha guns now D3 shots and still D6 damage? If so that's pretty imperssive.
DoomMouse wrote: tbh if you're taking three traktor cannons you may as well take a fair few more. Otherwise they'll be ignored by non-flier armies and instrantly focused down against eldar and friends.
Just to clarify are smasha guns now D3 shots and still D6 damage? If so that's pretty imperssive.
The flyer bonus is not THAT big difference that non-flyer army can just ignore it. The difference is basically 1 point of damage more per gun that you can rely on.
Eonfuzz wrote: I've been thinking on it, and I think there's some really cheesy things we could do RAW with the phasing out.
So with the Index vs Codex discussion, you're allowed to take any wargear if it exists in the index (But with the codex rules). Because GW are bad at writing rules that means we can do the following:
Take 1-5 Ammo Grots with Flashgits
Take 1-5 Ammo Grots with Nobz
Take 1-5 Gretchin with Kustom Mega Guns
None of these are actually wargear options. Check the Index, they are in the unit composition section of the datasheet, which we are not given permission to differ from if there is in fact a Codex datasheet. Nice thought though, and good catch on the others.
Who else thinks one wartrike two morkanauts and three deffrolla battlewagon based armies may work ? I’m thinking Speed kult but perhaps snakebites (though too unfluffy for my taste) Could work too
addnid wrote: Who else thinks one wartrike two morkanauts and three deffrolla battlewagon based armies may work ?
Quite possibly, yea. That still leaves points for objective cappers, CP, etc. It's nearly immune to small arms fire and you can deepstrike a couple when facing multiple knights.
addnid wrote: Who else thinks one wartrike two morkanauts and three deffrolla battlewagon based armies may work ?
Quite possibly, yea. That still leaves points for objective cappers, CP, etc. It's nearly immune to small arms fire and you can deepstrike a couple when facing multiple knights.
There's a batrep on Miniwargaming, Orks v Orks, where one player took a very similar army. The hard counter was Dakkajets, restricting the movement of the morkanauts and battlewagons while shooting them up.
The game was very Orky and entertaining. But low-model count Ork armies concern me. Maybe I've just seen too many Green Tide lists, but Orks still need board control to succeed.
addnid wrote: Who else thinks one wartrike two morkanauts and three deffrolla battlewagon based armies may work ?
Quite possibly, yea. That still leaves points for objective cappers, CP, etc. It's nearly immune to small arms fire and you can deepstrike a couple when facing multiple knights.
There's a batrep on Miniwargaming, Orks v Orks, where one player took a very similar army. The hard counter was Dakkajets, restricting the movement of the morkanauts and battlewagons while shooting them up.
The game was very Orky and entertaining. But low-model count Ork armies concern me. Maybe I've just seen too many Green Tide lists, but Orks still need board control to succeed.
That's pretty clever. Stormboyz should help shore that up, I think.
Their stuff is still cheap enough to bring lots of toys and boyz.
Forge World wrote me back to say that the mould for the Gargantuan Squiggoth had degraded to the point where the head no longer fit to the body. They have sent it back to the sculptors to see if it can be repaired, but since they don't have know how long that might take they decided to pull it from sale for the time being.
I'm excited to pick up the codex tomorrow. The codex FAQs are usually about two weeks after release, right?
I'm excited to pick up the codex tomorrow. The codex FAQs are usually about two weeks after release, right?
That sounds about right. Im also really excited about picking up my codex and wartrikes tomorrow. Im kinda sick of reading all the negativity on dakka and just want to get the book in my hands.
so a while back i posted some things i noticed from watching youtube codex reviews. i may or may not have the codex so i noticed there was one mistake so here is the correction.
nerf=tankbustas (8pt) reroll tohit of 1s instead on failed hits (possible mistake)
this was a mistake, tankbustas still get to reroll all failed to hits. my bad.
Only had the time for a quick look before heading out but overall I’m pretty pleased with the Codex. Seems like a LOT of stuff has dropped in cost to the point where it’s viable to bring some toys without it eating too heavily into your Boyz budget. Still a bit sore about the loss of the regular KFF Mek and (especially) the Mega Armour Warboss, but there’s always the Index I guess (although it would have been nice for them to have got cheaper in line with everything else). Looking forward to trying out some of our new goodies (relics/traits/strats etc).
I know we live in the eal world where ebay exists but gw forgets that and makes the dragsta able to be in units of 3?! That would cost you £270 XD yeah, these things aren't going to be limit for ever... there is no way.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
geargutz wrote: so i have the november whitedwarf. and there is an battle report between tau and codex orks. this post is for those who haven't read it yet or those who want to discus it.
here are the lists (was done in PL, no wargear was listed)
[spoiler]
orks,batalion detach,badmoons,5cp
=wartrike,super cybork body,warlord trait-the best armor teeth can buy
=bigmek in megarmor,kff =boyz,3 groups of 10
=3 trucks
=meganobz x5
=meganobz x4
=1 boosta blasta,1 shockdragsta,1 snazzwagon
=1 battlewagon
=1morkanaut kff,1 gorkanaut
=dakajet
=wazbomblastajet witj smasha gun and tellyport blastas
auxilary detachments,-3 cp =1scrapjet,1squigbuggy,1bonebreaker
145 PL total, said the he had 5cp total but because he brought 3 aux detachments he should've only had 2cp
tau,battalion detach,viorla sept,5cp (i wont bother with all the details of tau list)
=commander in crisis suit (warlord)
=etherial on hover drone
=2x firewarrior breacher teams of 10
=firewarrior strike team of 10
=devilfish
=x3 crisis suits
=x3 crisis bodyguards
=riptide with the high output burst rifle
=x2 ghostkeels
=firesuit marksman
=x2 boradsides with rail guns
=hammerhead gunship with railgun
=3 sniper drones
superhvy aux detachment
=stormsurge
143 PL, 9cps (had a warlord thing that gave 1 extra cp, not sure where the others came from)
its a kustom scenario. there is a mekshop on the board and the orks only have to get 1 of 2 secret ork vehicles to use the mekshop and then make it to the tau's board edge and they would win (the 2 secret vehicles were the battlewagon and the squigbuggy).
so, the ork player has his flyers in reserves, everything else deploys in transports on the line...and his wartrike is the closest model as far as i can tell. luckily the orks had 1st turn. all ork units rush forward. despite being badmoons the ork player focuses on speed...im not kidding.
the article said this "the orks gave little thought to shooting the tau, preferring instead to drive straight at them." this is not going to go well.
tau 1st turn was spent mostly shooting at the warttrike since the the ork player charged it as far as possible towards the tau gunline.with the combo of a 4up invul and a 5up fnp the wartrike suffered a whole round of shooting from half the tau army. very survivable but only had 1 wound left. ended up killing himself from overwatch in the charge in the next turn.
the next few turns go like this. tau shoot, things die, ork player does little to keep his units within the range of the 2 kffs he has. he gets a few units in combat and or course he wrecks because hes fighting tau. alot of the orks shooting is focused toward the worst units to try to shoot at...all the stealth suits/ghostkeels.
ork player is able to get one of his surviviing secret vehicles in contact with the mekshop (squigbuggy) but since the objective is to use the mekshop then the squigbuggy had to spend a turn doing nothing and thus got shot up when the tau player could deduce that was the secret ork vehicle.
end of round 5. well, no surprise the ork player is almost tabled. tau win.
some thoughts. ork player obviosly wanted to play evilsunzs but badmons was the only things availabe at the studio that also had all the new buggies to test out.
tau players most valuable model was the stormsurge.
orks players mvp was the wazbom blastajet.....no surprise the only thing that performed well was a shooting focused unit in a badmoons list...and the tau never shot at it. (it killed a ghostkeel after its drones were destroyed, and it chipped off the last wounds on a riptide).
i dont remember any mention of any ork stratagems used in the whole battle report, not surprising since technically he barely had any cp. all the while they talked about the tau player using cool tau strats.
so yet again a battle report that utterly fails at hyping me up for the orks. without utilizing any stratagems and barely using the clan trait it was like index orks with some new models and some pts decreases vrs codex tau played by an obviously more competent player.
[/spoiler]
Gw players play orks like they play OP lists. They expect to just roll to win. They don't really attempt to play with any tactics at all, instead thinking ork players just charge forward. What they fail to notice is that ork players play like orks! The imperium think they just run forward and die but that's just a cunning A plan while the b plan is to run forward with the big things after then small things die and then plan c shoot um with the meks gubbinz yah paid good teef for while plan d happens which is stab um in the back! Yah gotta play sneeky!
koooaei wrote: It's more than 1 point most of the time. Especially from a psychological pov.
It's 2d6 pick highest right? That's same as melta which is 4.5 average(tad under but 4.4xxxxx can be averaged to 4.5 for sake of clarity). 4.5-3.5=1.
People will only remember times when you roll 1-6
If you pick traktor gun because of that then that means opponent will be super happy to play against you. Especially in tournaments as it's going to be easy win.
Don't know if it's the right post, but I noticed that the Start Collecting box is missing from the store. Are they going to replace it? Is the old one worth with the new codex?
Thank you in advance
Jidmah wrote: I'd rather hunt down the kult of speed battleforce from last year than buy the start collecting box. You get a lot more useful models out of that.
I dunno, nobz and the deff dread are pretty solid now and boyz are always good
Jidmah wrote: I'd rather hunt down the kult of speed battleforce from last year than buy the start collecting box. You get a lot more useful models out of that.
I dunno, nobz and the deff dread are pretty solid now and boyz are always good
Painboyz are pretty poop now though. And they ain't HQ choices.
Jidmah wrote: I'd rather hunt down the kult of speed battleforce from last year than buy the start collecting box. You get a lot more useful models out of that.
I dunno, nobz and the deff dread are pretty solid now and boyz are always good
Painboyz are pretty poop now though. And they ain't HQ choices.
That last part is key. If I could use them to fill my mandatory HQ choices, they'd be a lot better.
Jidmah wrote: I'd rather hunt down the kult of speed battleforce from last year than buy the start collecting box. You get a lot more useful models out of that.
I dunno, nobz and the deff dread are pretty solid now and boyz are always good
Painboyz are pretty poop now though. And they ain't HQ choices.
Still discount with just boyz+deff dread. And also nobs. So I wouldn't worry too much about painboy. You can toss him and nobs to garbage and you get boyz and deffdread still at discount. Albeit if you already have 30-60 boyz you don't need more. Then you probably want nobs!
All my DeffKoptas are from Sanctus Reach,
the now resin spindly thing on line wouldn't last an hour
in my clumsy hands!
(sad they lost the killsaw and mini-bombs...)
*assault on black reach ...and yeah, those deffkoptas are definitely the way to go, unfortunately they seem to be getting a bit rarer and more expensive on ebay these days...are they still doing those "battle for vedros" (or whatever it was called) boxes? seeing as it was just reprints of AOBR stuff, pretty sure there was a deffkopta in one of the boxes for that...and a bunch of other stuff of questionable value...
...I've accumulated about 20 of the things over the years though, so I'm set
(and reason likely is the sprue comes with other stuff so basically it would be like the revel box will be. That or recut mould which for plastic costs lot)
)
