I notice that the big mek in GW's sample list is specifically called 'Big Mek with Shokk Attack Gun'. I suspect that means the SAG BM will be a separate datasheet to the normal one. Not very interesting, just a random observation.
Yeah I think ard boys is a 5+ save simply because of its interaction with bloodaxe clan traits. Blood axes are already one of the better clan traits and if you could spend like 6cp to have 90 boyz with space marine saves that would be a little put of hand.
ManTube wrote: Yeah I think ard boys is a 5+ save simply because of its interaction with bloodaxe clan traits. Blood axes are already one of the better clan traits and if you could spend like 6cp to have 90 boyz with space marine saves that would be a little put of hand.
but according to space marine players, 3+ armor saves is the worse! But seriously, I imagine 'ard boyz would be useful in some circumstances. I also doubt it'd be usable for any unit.
ManTube wrote: Yeah I think ard boys is a 5+ save simply because of its interaction with bloodaxe clan traits. Blood axes are already one of the better clan traits and if you could spend like 6cp to have 90 boyz with space marine saves that would be a little put of hand.
but according to space marine players, 3+ armor saves is the worse!
But seriously, I imagine 'ard boyz would be useful in some circumstances. I also doubt it'd be usable for any unit.
Uhh, well, these guys would be 7 points each instead of 13, so, yea still possibly the short end of the stick for marines. And I don't believe standard orks will get to 3+ since they won't get double cover saves.4+ is tops - 2+ for flash gitz.
Jidmah wrote: Yeah, I don't see 5+ armor being worth 2CP...
What about a 3+ armor save on flash gitz? And then make the Blood Axes so they're "always in cover" for a 2+. LOL
You could make a whole Blood Axe army of Orks sitting on a 4+ armor save if you wanted to burn the CP.
I doubt that the stratagem works on anything but boyz and is anything but "their armor save is 5+". There is no way their are having two +1 armor stratagems in one codex.
There is the looting stratagem though, so after destroying a vehicle you could end up with 3+ bloodaxe 'ard boyz anyways. If they could loot their own battlewagon after it gets blown up... that's something I would pay 2CP for.
Jidmah wrote: Yeah, I don't see 5+ armor being worth 2CP...
What about a 3+ armor save on flash gitz? And then make the Blood Axes so they're "always in cover" for a 2+. LOL
You could make a whole Blood Axe army of Orks sitting on a 4+ armor save if you wanted to burn the CP.
I doubt that the stratagem works on anything but boyz and is anything but "their armor save is 5+". There is no way their are having two +1 armor stratagems in one codex.
There is the looting stratagem though, so after destroying a vehicle you could end up with 3+ bloodaxe 'ard boyz anyways. If they could loot their own battlewagon after it gets blown up... that's something I would pay 2CP for.
Also. We don't know if Flash Gits will get a Klan Key word or not. Right now they don't have it. No clan affiliation no blood axe Flash Gitz. Unless I am mistaken.
Currently, I'm not too surprised that the normal Big Gunz aren't in the new dex, given their old models and lack of incentive on GW's part to replace them with all the 3rd party models (I know mine are). My main beef is that it means we're going to be stuck with their current points costs and rules, which means lobbas are basically relegated to almost "never take" status sadly. It's a far cry from their use in 7th ed, where they could snipe out special weapons and such.
Grimskul wrote: Currently, I'm not too surprised that the normal Big Gunz aren't in the new dex, given their old models and lack of incentive on GW's part to replace them with all the 3rd party models (I know mine are). My main beef is that it means we're going to be stuck with their current points costs and rules, which means lobbas are basically relegated to almost "never take" status sadly. It's a far cry from their use in 7th ed, where they could snipe out special weapons and such.
Lobbas will still be useful to fill out heavy slots. At 30 points for BS4+ 48" indirect fire, they often will get their points back.
ETA: Now that I think about it...at 48" for D6 ST5 shots, these things are better than firewariors...obviously without all the synergy rules. Has anyone ever fielded 12 of them, like an infantry line? For 360 points, you'd get 21 ST5 hits per turn, basically anywhere on the board.
My experience with Lobbas is that they basically never earn their points back. The only time I had one earn its points back was when it killed a terminator in close combat.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I haven't thought about it too deeply, but Fire Warriors are point for point better at everything than Lobbas other than the narrow use of sitting behind some terrain far in the back field preventing deep strikes (which is of course what Lobbas are for).
Fire Warriors get more hits at 16-30". They get more than twice as many at 15" and less. Fire Warriors are more durable, faster, better at board control, have Objective Secured, are better in close combat, they're just plain better in just about every way. That is, like you said, not counting synergy which Fire Warriors have a lot of.
IG Mortars are basically as good as Lobbas (not counting IG synergy and special stuff) for 11 points. Of course IG Mortars are often considered overpowered, so they might not be tje best thing to be basing Lobba points off of.
I figure Lobbas should be 20 points or less.
I've never used twelve lobbas. I've used six in a game several times, and they hardly kill anything. I mostly take them because I think Big Gunz are cool.
So far the leaks have been fairly underwhelming. The 5+ stratagem seems weak, the buggies likewise seem rather lackluster with their rules which is strange since even I assumed GW would make them borderline OP in order to boost their sales. The Stompa rules are better than I expected but we need to see the new price that accompanies those shooting boosts before I make up my mind.
Overall, I am a bit worried but somewhat optimistic. I am hoping the points drop drastically across the board and we may be able to use these guys in bulk as they are intended.
Grimskul wrote: Currently, I'm not too surprised that the normal Big Gunz aren't in the new dex, given their old models and lack of incentive on GW's part to replace them with all the 3rd party models (I know mine are). My main beef is that it means we're going to be stuck with their current points costs and rules, which means lobbas are basically relegated to almost "never take" status sadly. It's a far cry from their use in 7th ed, where they could snipe out special weapons and such.
Lobbas will still be useful to fill out heavy slots. At 30 points for BS4+ 48" indirect fire, they often will get their points back.
ETA: Now that I think about it...at 48" for D6 ST5 shots, these things are better than firewariors...obviously without all the synergy rules. Has anyone ever fielded 12 of them, like an infantry line? For 360 points, you'd get 21 ST5 hits per turn, basically anywhere on the board.
Gotta agree with Dakka Dakka Flame that Lobbas are not a great investment. The no LoS thing seems good, until you realize that you have to roll a random number of shots, only hit on a 4+, and it has 0 AP. If it had some AP, and a bonus to hit or something against infantry, I could see it doing something. But as is, it's very lacklustre and Orks generally speaking don't need much help in the anti-infantry department. It's basically a glorified big shoota, and we know how effective those things are.
GW lost me on this one.
Without a discount,
or Chinese resin,
I am not adding to my ork army this year.
It's rumoured to be 90 pounds which means 120e price bracket for eu
Edit: btw never look at official conversion rate to figure out prices. Gw has fixed own ratio. Instead find existing model with same price and use that. Speed freak is rumoured to be 90 pounds which is same as tooth and claw. Check how much that is in desired currency
Obi_wang wrote: I was thinking about this earlier today. At what points values are these buggies playable/competetive?
I am honestly expecting them to be 180-220 points. Most of them have a shooting and melee profile which always seems to find it's way to a price point that is excessive (like flash gitz). It will not prevent me from having one of each though.
5+ save 'Ard boys, man I wish it were 4+. However, for 2cp it might be worth it sometimes, if you have a super large unit and your opponent relies on attacks without an AP value. If nobs can take 4+ armor as an upgrade (like in the past), that might be okay and boost them to a 3+ save.
Obi_wang wrote: I was thinking about this earlier today. At what points values are these buggies playable/competetive?
well, lets compare them to the only thing in the codex that is similar
old warbuggies/wartracks (with prcies updated from last CA)
warbuggy rokits 57
warbuggy bigshootas 43
wartrack rokits 61
wartrack bigshootas 47
skorcha 54
1 pl=20 pt in estimate and since it seems all the new buggies have no upgrasde options then we can asume the pl has little to no variables from the pts. so that leaves;
scrapjet/boom blasta/snazzwagon 100ish
dethkilla trike/shockjump dragsta 120ish
squigbuggie 140ish
i went to a tournament recently and bright a bunch of skorchas. my opinion was they had a lot of bark but very little bite. my opponents lamented having to deal with so many wounds but my damage output was not enough to do anything significant.
i would say having the new buggies around double the price of the old buggies makes them questionable to me. they would have to have double the firepower of 2 of the old buggies, but that is actually possible with some of them, they have around the same amount of wounds as 2 old buggiesand the same armor so thus are the same amount of survivability. now this will come down to the potential damage output. the shockjump seems to be the one that stands out for its antitank bs3 goodness. the squigbuggies seems too expensive, i cant realy compare the wartrike (would have to compare it with a warboss), the snazwagon/boomblasta/dscrapjet seem better with dakka but not that much. i would say for the oldbuggies to be good would that they would have to at least drop to maybe 40pts at most for the most expensive upgrades. then the new buggies would have to be within the ranges of 80/90/100pts to be useful.
i did not calculate in the clan traits mainly becasue both types of buggies can use them and thus comparisons wouldn't do much
i dont do mathhammer so dont expect anything about that. many of these buggies will need personal experience from me to see if i find them worth the pts compared to the index ones when i get the new codex..
Nobz already have 4+ armor in 8th, no need for an upgrade.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote: So far the leaks have been fairly underwhelming. The 5+ stratagem seems weak, the buggies likewise seem rather lackluster with their rules which is strange since even I assumed GW would make them borderline OP in order to boost their sales. The Stompa rules are better than I expected but we need to see the new price that accompanies those shooting boosts before I make up my mind.
Overall, I am a bit worried but somewhat optimistic. I am hoping the points drop drastically across the board and we may be able to use these guys in bulk as they are intended.
Why do you think the buggies are lackluster? Especially the shockjump dragsta and the scrapjet look quite powerful to me, with the boosta-blasta still looking decent, though probably not tournament material.
Jidmah wrote: Nobz already have 4+ armor in 8th, no need for an upgrade.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SemperMortis wrote: So far the leaks have been fairly underwhelming. The 5+ stratagem seems weak, the buggies likewise seem rather lackluster with their rules which is strange since even I assumed GW would make them borderline OP in order to boost their sales. The Stompa rules are better than I expected but we need to see the new price that accompanies those shooting boosts before I make up my mind.
Overall, I am a bit worried but somewhat optimistic. I am hoping the points drop drastically across the board and we may be able to use these guys in bulk as they are intended.
Why do you think the buggies are lackluster? Especially the shockjump dragsta and the scrapjet look quite powerful to me, with the boosta-blasta still looking decent, though probably not tournament material.
I think, and mind you I am fairly new to the hobby, that the problem is that 100+ points the buggies loose a lot of their appeal. The profiles all look good, but if you cant bring enough redundancy they simply don't get anything done.
Why do you think the buggies are lackluster? Especially the shockjump dragsta and the scrapjet look quite powerful to me, with the boosta-blasta still looking decent, though probably not tournament material.
Shokkjump Dragsta so far looks like the only one worth taking. The scrapjet looks like scrap; 4 shots on average from its rokkits means, on average, 1 or 2 hits, and against a T8 tank that's typically 1 wound roll that gets through which is saved 1/3rd of the time. Dakka Dakka Dakka is largely pointless on them too, thanks to low numbers of hits and typical Ork inaccuracy.
Now, given that the article says they're piloted by downed Dakkajet pilots, we might, just MIGHT, get to hit on 4+. That would make them actually worth considering, because then they're active competition to Tankbustas. Who knows why GW is going on about with "And that’s just ONE of the guns – this vehicle is loaded with deadly firepower.". We've seen the model, it has two guns on the front, each shooting rokkits. That's the Rokkit Kannon right there. No other guns on the model. Maybe the pilot has a slugga or shotgun, but frankly who cares.
The Boom-dakka is weak as well. 9 shots, 3 hits, maybe an extra one from Dakka Dakka Dakka. Str 5, Ap-2, 1 dmg. Not sure what I'm aiming that gun at but I can't think of many targets that really care. 2D6 Shoota shots that ignore cover at 6" range also aren't really worth noting.
The Boota gets 6 Deffgun shots, meaning 2 hits. We've had Lootas for over a year now in 8th, and people don't take them because they're not worth taking. Strapping a couple onto a buggy chassis doesn't make that worth taking either. Neither does strapping 4 Burna Boyz to the back; we've had Burnas for the same period of time and we don't take them either. 8 auto-hitting Str 4 shots kills what, 4 Guardsmen? Maybe a single Marine in the open?
As to the Squig-Buggy, this thing is going to be the Flash-Gitz of the Codex: over-priced, tries to do everything and ends up doing badly at all of them. I can't even think of a role for this thing.
At the end of the day, the reason the Shokkjump Dragsta is so promising is because it's actual anti-tank for us in an army that currently badly lacks that. The rest are all anti-infantry which we don't suffer much against currently; we just drown it in Boyz and call it a day.
Shokkjump Dragsta so far looks like the only one worth taking. The scrapjet looks like scrap; 4 shots on average from its rokkits means, on average, 1 or 2 hits, and against a T8 tank that's typically 1 wound roll that gets through which is saved 1/3rd of the time. Dakka Dakka Dakka is largely pointless on them too, thanks to low numbers of hits and typical Ork inaccuracy.
Now, given that the article says they're piloted by downed Dakkajet pilots, we might, just MIGHT, get to hit on 4+. That would make them actually worth considering, because then they're active competition to Tankbustas. Who knows why GW is going on about with "And that’s just ONE of the guns – this vehicle is loaded with deadly firepower.". We've seen the model, it has two guns on the front, each shooting rokkits. That's the Rokkit Kannon right there. No other guns on the model. Maybe the pilot has a slugga or shotgun, but frankly who cares.
The Boom-dakka is weak as well. 9 shots, 3 hits, maybe an extra one from Dakka Dakka Dakka. Str 5, Ap-2, 1 dmg. Not sure what I'm aiming that gun at but I can't think of many targets that really care. 2D6 Shoota shots that ignore cover at 6" range also aren't really worth noting.
The Boota gets 6 Deffgun shots, meaning 2 hits. We've had Lootas for over a year now in 8th, and people don't take them because they're not worth taking. Strapping a couple onto a buggy chassis doesn't make that worth taking either. Neither does strapping 4 Burna Boyz to the back; we've had Burnas for the same period of time and we don't take them either. 8 auto-hitting Str 4 shots kills what, 4 Guardsmen? Maybe a single Marine in the open?
As to the Squig-Buggy, this thing is going to be the Flash-Gitz of the Codex: over-priced, tries to do everything and ends up doing badly at all of them. I can't even think of a role for this thing.
At the end of the day, the reason the Shokkjump Dragsta is so promising is because it's actual anti-tank for us in an army that currently badly lacks that. The rest are all anti-infantry which we don't suffer much against currently; we just drown it in Boyz and call it a day.
I think you're wrong on the armaments of the megatrakk skrapjet. The Rokkitkannon is the weapon on its right wing. On its left wing it has two guns that are most likely shooting bullets because shells are coming out of them and rokkits firing on that wing as well. So I'd wager it has the rokkitkannon, maybe a pair of supashootas and something like a rack of rokkits as well. It also might be, as you stated, BS4+ but I doubt it. It might have base strength 6 or more attacks in CC though
I just think it general that it's way too early to condemn any of these vehicles. We don't know the exact point costs, stratagems and other synergies. The only one I have a really hard time seeing how it'd work is that squigbuggy
I might be wrong on this, but both buggies (dragsta and scrapjet) easily outshoot comparable imperial and chaos vehicles which clock in at 140+ points, who all see play regularly. Not on the top tables of GT, but everywhere else. Those are more durable due to 3+ saves but that usually boils down to rolling 6+ armor or 5++ anyways.
So I see no reason why their durability should be a problem. As far as we know they are going to be T6/8W/4+ and you can have up to 9 of each. If you factor in KFF, deff skullz, snakebite or blood axe clan traits, they are of similar durability as a rhino, helbrute or ravager - all those see play.
i would argue that the boom blasta will be good.
A-its going to be a little cheaper then the shockjump
b-it can do mortal wounds on the charge.
bring the shockjump in detachments of either evilsunz (to not incur advancing negatives to shooting) or as badmoons to reroll ones for ultimate shooting.
then bring the boom blastas in a detachment of bloodaxes to charge anything big for the mortal wounds (while shooting anything else thats meq). the bloodaxe trait will allow them to pop in and out combat for maximizing those mortal wounds.
luckily the 2 vehicles that seem good to me are both in the speedfreeks box.
i have a suspicion that the gorkanaut will come back in style, but only one per list. keep it behind as the rest of the force rushes ahead and then teleport strat that thing right in the enemies face (have this be evilsunz so it can get bonus to charge),
the defkilla sounds good to for his bonuses, but not for speed freeks. most ork vehicles that arnt transporting infantry often perform better in shooting roles and thus wouldn't charge often enough to benefit from the waaagh (except the new boom blasta). instead the defkilla seems like it will be best for all ork walkers (evilsunz trait for speed). helping them get right into the enemies face (killakanz with rokets or kmb can be decent too being able to advance without loosing effectiveness on their shooting).
but as far as dreddmobs go we will have to see how much they dropped in pts before we jump ahead of ourselves (since i have an abundance of dreddmob i will definitely be trying out this list ).
Why do you think the buggies are lackluster? Especially the shockjump dragsta and the scrapjet look quite powerful to me, with the boosta-blasta still looking decent, though probably not tournament material.
Shokkjump Dragsta so far looks like the only one worth taking. The scrapjet looks like scrap; 4 shots on average from its rokkits means, on average, 1 or 2 hits, and against a T8 tank that's typically 1 wound roll that gets through which is saved 1/3rd of the time. Dakka Dakka Dakka is largely pointless on them too, thanks to low numbers of hits and typical Ork inaccuracy.
Now, given that the article says they're piloted by downed Dakkajet pilots, we might, just MIGHT, get to hit on 4+. That would make them actually worth considering, because then they're active competition to Tankbustas. Who knows why GW is going on about with "And that’s just ONE of the guns – this vehicle is loaded with deadly firepower.". We've seen the model, it has two guns on the front, each shooting rokkits. That's the Rokkit Kannon right there. No other guns on the model. Maybe the pilot has a slugga or shotgun, but frankly who cares.
Maybe you should give the model another look:
Spoiler:
The article clearly said that the rokkit kannon is just one of it's guns. Just from the model, we have at least 1-3 additional rokkit shots and something that could be a twin big shoota, supa-shoota, dakka gun or a single deff gun.
At BS5+, assuming one rokkit launcha and twin big shootas, it will deal 1.88 wounds to T8/3+/5++, while the dragsta deals 2.27 damage. In reality, this means that they will most likely will score one rokkit hit each two out of three turns. The scrapjet has a better close combat weapon and from PL we can assume it s about 20 points less than the dragsta.
If one is viable, the other one is very close by, if the scrapjet gets more than rokkit shot or BS4+, it will be on equal footing with the dragsta, for less points.
We've had Lootas for over a year now in 8th, and people don't take them because they're not worth taking.
KMK putting out three times as much firepower than a loota per point is more relevant to them not appearing than the profile of their gun.
At the end of the day, the reason the Shokkjump Dragsta is so promising is because it's actual anti-tank for us in an army that currently badly lacks that. The rest are all anti-infantry which we don't suffer much against currently; we just drown it in Boyz and call it a day.
I see no reason to point a rokkit kannon at infantry.
I also feel like it's quite possible the megatrakk skrapjet has a stratgem tied to it which enables it to fly for the remainder of the turn. That would make the commercial ring a bit more true, and even with the fly nerf in the charge phase it would still be able to hit fliers in CC.
Obviously this is just me taking a wild guess, but stuff like that could add a lot of versatility to the vehicle. Also, it'd make the flyboy happy and isn't that always our number one concern?
Ok, the mental image of the trakk lifting off to scrap a plane like a shark jumping out of the ocean to... scrap a plane if Hollywood is to be believed. Awesome. Depending on the kit's price I might use an actual Ork plane instead, though. Add some wheels and tracks (the servo-hauler has good ones) and you can probably make three or four megatrakks. Like, the wings in V-form strapped to the little tractor powered by several rockets looking like a tiny F-117 Nighthawk alone could make the purchase worth it!
Orks have the potential to really get across the board. There is Da Jump, Shokkjump, Dragsta & the rumored teleport strategum to put things right in your opponent's face. Plus, there are several units that can move across quickly or have a native deep strike ability.
PiñaColada wrote: I also feel like it's quite possible the megatrakk skrapjet has a stratgem tied to it which enables it to fly for the remainder of the turn. That would make the commercial ring a bit more true, and even with the fly nerf in the charge phase it would still be able to hit fliers in CC.
Obviously this is just me taking a wild guess, but stuff like that could add a lot of versatility to the vehicle. Also, it'd make the flyboy happy and isn't that always our number one concern?
Or perhaps it goes airborne if it rolls 4+ when advancing...that would be nice.
I haven't noticed mention of DakkaDakka change on here
as I haven't kept up with this thread,
but I saw on the Warhammer Community article on Ork vehicles that they say "DakkaDakka" generates an aditional *hit* on an unmodified "6"
a change from generating an additional shot?
if this is the final DakkaDakka,
I'm VERY excited to get my Boyz back out on the Table!!
I haven't noticed mention of DakkaDakka change on here
as I haven't kept up with this thread,
but I saw on the Warhammer Community article on Ork vehicles that they say "DakkaDakka" generates an aditional *hit* on an unmodified "6"
a change from generating an additional shot?
if this is the final DakkaDakka,
I'm VERY excited to get my Boyz back out on the Table!!
Chris
Yea, we're not sure if we can take that at face value yet. I'm pretty certain it will mean that it generates hits, but GW has goofed before.
I haven't noticed mention of DakkaDakka change on here
as I haven't kept up with this thread,
but I saw on the Warhammer Community article on Ork vehicles that they say "DakkaDakka" generates an aditional *hit* on an unmodified "6"
a change from generating an additional shot?
if this is the final DakkaDakka,
I'm VERY excited to get my Boyz back out on the Table!!
Chris
The writing of these preview articles is ALWAYS pretty fast and loose. I wouldn't read too much into it.
Man you guys are spoiled. 2CP for an army easily taking in CP to give you guys a 5+ that's not just ignored by every gun in the game for a unit of 30 dudes.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Man you guys are spoiled. 2CP for an army easily taking in CP to give you guys a 5+ that's not just ignored by every gun in the game for a unit of 30 dudes.
I mean what do you guys want?
Guard get it at 4ppm and no cp.
We don't want that. Fair would be 6ppm orks at 5+ and no cp or 4+ orks at 7ppm and 2cp.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Man you guys are spoiled. 2CP for an army easily taking in CP to give you guys a 5+ that's not just ignored by every gun in the game for a unit of 30 dudes.
I mean what do you guys want?
We want ‘Ard Boyz to be, well, ‘Ard Boyz. They’ve traditionally always been a 4+; the new version is ok, but it’s just not the same.
Also, it’s just a +1 to their save; but at 2cp. - How much will an Ork player have to spare?
The only positive is that, since it’s a stratagem, it doesn’t ALWAYS have to be used; you can use it in some matchups, but not others...
Still, 2cp for cover on round 1, 2cp for a +1 save, cp for this, cp for that... it’ll add up REAL fast.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Man you guys are spoiled. 2CP for an army easily taking in CP to give you guys a 5+ that's not just ignored by every gun in the game for a unit of 30 dudes.
I mean what do you guys want?
Guard get it at 4ppm and no cp.
We don't want that. Fair would be 6ppm orks at 5+ and no cp or 4+ orks at 7ppm and 2cp.
Guard also cant teleport across the board instantly
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Man you guys are spoiled. 2CP for an army easily taking in CP to give you guys a 5+ that's not just ignored by every gun in the game for a unit of 30 dudes.
I mean what do you guys want?
Guard get it at 4ppm and no cp.
We don't want that. Fair would be 6ppm orks at 5+ and no cp or 4+ orks at 7ppm and 2cp.
Guard also cant teleport across the board instantly
Neither can we, without a weirdboy.
Guard gets plenty of buffs from officers, but weirdboyz and officers aren't what is being discussed.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Man you guys are spoiled. 2CP for an army easily taking in CP to give you guys a 5+ that's not just ignored by every gun in the game for a unit of 30 dudes.
I mean what do you guys want?
Guard get it at 4ppm and no cp.
We don't want that. Fair would be 6ppm orks at 5+ and no cp or 4+ orks at 7ppm and 2cp.
For 2 points you lose BS4+ and the 5+, and you get an additional point of S, T, A, and a rule that slightly mitigates the lesser BS level.
If you don't think that evens out at all you are super spoiled and have no concept of balance whatsoever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Man you guys are spoiled. 2CP for an army easily taking in CP to give you guys a 5+ that's not just ignored by every gun in the game for a unit of 30 dudes.
I mean what do you guys want?
Guard get it at 4ppm and no cp.
We don't want that. Fair would be 6ppm orks at 5+ and no cp or 4+ orks at 7ppm and 2cp.
Guard also cant teleport across the board instantly
Neither can we, without a weirdboy.
Guard gets plenty of buffs from officers, but weirdboyz and officers aren't what is being discussed.
You might not be, but your also missing my point. You can't talk about the value of units in a vaccum. Seeking out ballance requires consideration of what it contributes overall, what sort of niches it fills, and what it gains from being part of a particular book. If you want to talk about what a unit is worth, but then outright refuse to consider that maybe more than just its own stats are important, then you're not arguing in good faith.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Man you guys are spoiled. 2CP for an army easily taking in CP to give you guys a 5+ that's not just ignored by every gun in the game for a unit of 30 dudes.
I mean what do you guys want?
Guard get it at 4ppm and no cp.
We don't want that. Fair would be 6ppm orks at 5+ and no cp or 4+ orks at 7ppm and 2cp.
For 2 points you lose BS4+ and the 5+, and you get an additional point of S, T, A, and a rule that slightly mitigates the lesser BS level.
If you don't think that evens out at all you are super spoiled and have no concept of balance whatsoever.
You forgot WS.
But you are wrong.
Would you like guardsmen who trade their BS4+ for 5+, but gain S4, T4 and WS3+? Oh...and these new guardsmen are 7 points instead of 4, and have to pay 2CP for 5+ armor.
You would do that? Pay 7 points instead of 4 and 2CP per unit instead of zero, and lose 1/3 of their shooting?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Man you guys are spoiled. 2CP for an army easily taking in CP to give you guys a 5+ that's not just ignored by every gun in the game for a unit of 30 dudes.
I mean what do you guys want?
Guard get it at 4ppm and no cp.
We don't want that. Fair would be 6ppm orks at 5+ and no cp or 4+ orks at 7ppm and 2cp.
For 2 points you lose BS4+ and the 5+, and you get an additional point of S, T, A, and a rule that slightly mitigates the lesser BS level.
If you don't think that evens out at all you are super spoiled and have no concept of balance whatsoever.
You forgot WS.
But you are wrong.
Would you like guardsmen who trade their BS4+ for 5+, but gain S4, T4 and WS3+? Oh...and these new guardsmen are 7 points instead of 4, and have to pay 2CP for 5+ armor.
You would do that? Pay 7 points instead of 4 and 2CP per unit instead of zero, and lose 1/3 of their shooting?
I don't have a melee element in my Deathwatch or AdMech lists, so absolutely.
Also once again you don't lose a third of your shooting because you gained a rule for free to negate part of that, on top of it ignoring any modifier after -1.
Why do you think the buggies are lackluster? Especially the shockjump dragsta and the scrapjet look quite powerful to me, with the boosta-blasta still looking decent, though probably not tournament material.
Shokkjump Dragsta so far looks like the only one worth taking. The scrapjet looks like scrap; 4 shots on average from its rokkits means, on average, 1 or 2 hits, and against a T8 tank that's typically 1 wound roll that gets through which is saved 1/3rd of the time. Dakka Dakka Dakka is largely pointless on them too, thanks to low numbers of hits and typical Ork inaccuracy.
Now, given that the article says they're piloted by downed Dakkajet pilots, we might, just MIGHT, get to hit on 4+. That would make them actually worth considering, because then they're active competition to Tankbustas. Who knows why GW is going on about with "And that’s just ONE of the guns – this vehicle is loaded with deadly firepower.". We've seen the model, it has two guns on the front, each shooting rokkits. That's the Rokkit Kannon right there. No other guns on the model. Maybe the pilot has a slugga or shotgun, but frankly who cares.
Maybe you should give the model another look:
Spoiler:
The article clearly said that the rokkit kannon is just one of it's guns. Just from the model, we have at least 1-3 additional rokkit shots and something that could be a twin big shoota, supa-shoota, dakka gun or a single deff gun.
At BS5+, assuming one rokkit launcha and twin big shootas, it will deal 1.88 wounds to T8/3+/5++, while the dragsta deals 2.27 damage. In reality, this means that they will most likely will score one rokkit hit each two out of three turns. The scrapjet has a better close combat weapon and from PL we can assume it s about 20 points less than the dragsta.
If one is viable, the other one is very close by, if the scrapjet gets more than rokkit shot or BS4+, it will be on equal footing with the dragsta, for less points.
We've had Lootas for over a year now in 8th, and people don't take them because they're not worth taking.
KMK putting out three times as much firepower than a loota per point is more relevant to them not appearing than the profile of their gun.
At the end of the day, the reason the Shokkjump Dragsta is so promising is because it's actual anti-tank for us in an army that currently badly lacks that. The rest are all anti-infantry which we don't suffer much against currently; we just drown it in Boyz and call it a day.
I see no reason to point a rokkit kannon at infantry.
It also has 2 big shootas on the rear of the model aswell which can be seen on a few posts on instagram and on that bad quality video that was shown. So it may have the rokkit kannon, rokkit launcha, 4 big/supa shootas and the drill which isnt bad.
I don't have a melee element in my Deathwatch or AdMech lists, so absolutely.
Also once again you don't lose a third of your shooting because you gained a rule for free to negate part of that, on top of it ignoring any modifier after -1.
luckily those guard players can shoot twice with their main battle tank.
sure, this is the "shooting" edition, but lets moan about the melee focused orks for wanting some genuine buffs so they dont get blown off the board before turn 3.
I don't have a melee element in my Deathwatch or AdMech lists, so absolutely.
Also once again you don't lose a third of your shooting because you gained a rule for free to negate part of that, on top of it ignoring any modifier after -1.
luckily those guard players can shoot twice with their main battle tank.
sure, this is the "shooting" edition, but lets moan about the melee focused orks for wanting some genuine buffs so they dont get blown off the board before turn 3.
Luckily you have a universal Stratatgem giving everyone cover on the first turn if you don't get it, and then the whole army has been focused on getting off a charge T1.
Luckily you have a universal Stratatgem giving everyone cover on the first turn if you don't get it, and then the whole army has been focused on getting off a charge T1.
luckily many shooting units can now be placed on the top of ruins where no ork melee focused vehicle can attack.
how much "everything and the kitchen sink are we going to put in these counter point arguments?
as it stand there are very few ork lists doing any real good in tournaments. if the codex comes out and orks are overpowered then maybe youll have a leg to stand on, and if its under-powered then we were justified in our worries.
It also has 2 big shootas on the rear of the model aswell which can be seen on a few posts on instagram and on that bad quality video that was shown. So it may have the rokkit kannon, rokkit launcha, 4 big/supa shootas and the drill which isnt bad.
Do you have a link to those posts perchance? I don't think I've seen those pictures.
Also, not in reply to you deffrekka. Can we please stop with the whole snarky comparison of guardsmen and boyz now?
Luckily you have a universal Stratatgem giving everyone cover on the first turn if you don't get it, and then the whole army has been focused on getting off a charge T1.
luckily many shooting units can now be placed on the top of ruins where no ork melee focused vehicle can attack.
how much "everything and the kitchen sink are we going to put in these counter point arguments?
as it stand there are very few ork lists doing any real good in tournaments. if the codex comes out and orks are overpowered then maybe youll have a leg to stand on, and if its under-powered then we were justified in our worries.
If 1 or 2 units on a ruin is such a concern, you couldn't play ANY melee army.
It also has 2 big shootas on the rear of the model aswell which can be seen on a few posts on instagram and on that bad quality video that was shown. So it may have the rokkit kannon, rokkit launcha, 4 big/supa shootas and the drill which isnt bad.
Do you have a link to those posts perchance? I don't think I've seen those pictures.
Also, not in reply to you deffrekka. Can we please stop with the whole snarky comparison of guardsmen and boyz now?
Apparently it has a Grot tailgunner in the back, they said so on Warhammer TV yesterday. That would account for 2 of the big/soopa shootas.
(also it's not actually a jet engine, but more like a prop plane with a drill instead of the prop, hence no jet exhaust in the back)
Regarding the trouble with Ruins... I always make sure to out the big terrain pieces toward the center of the board, and not on the edges. There's no point in encouraging castling.
I also usually place terrain symmetrically so no one particular side has an advantage over the other.
Boyz are almost guaranteed to not get a new kit, since the models in the box are the same ones as for all other plastic orks similar to boyz in the entire range.
I am sure that this question has already been answered at some point in the last 80+ pages, but after the codex drops, will we still be able to use rokkit buggies from the index in matched play games ( assuming that they won’t be in the codex)?
If so, would they benefit from clan traits, DDD, etc.?
I haven’t got to play a whole lot so far in 8th so I’m not sure how this works. I just know that I have 15 rokkit buggies and wondered if I need to begin converting them into the newer vehicles.
Chaos Legionnaire wrote: I am sure that this question has already been answered at some point in the last 80+ pages, but after the codex drops, will we still be able to use rokkit buggies from the index in matched play games ( assuming that they won’t be in the codex)?
If so, would they benefit from clan traits, DDD, etc.?
I haven’t got to play a whole lot so far in 8th so I’m not sure how this works. I just know that I have 15 rokkit buggies and wondered if I need to begin converting them into the newer vehicles.
Hasn't been mentioned yet to my knowledge, but since all the new buggies have very specific (and trademarked names) I would assume the old buggies would be Index options for now, and should still be allowed clan keywords.
Chaos Legionnaire wrote: I am sure that this question has already been answered at some point in the last 80+ pages, but after the codex drops, will we still be able to use rokkit buggies from the index in matched play games ( assuming that they won’t be in the codex)?
If so, would they benefit from clan traits, DDD, etc.?
I haven’t got to play a whole lot so far in 8th so I’m not sure how this works. I just know that I have 15 rokkit buggies and wondered if I need to begin converting them into the newer vehicles.
If the datasheet isn't in the new codex you can use the index. Admittedly one day they will almost certainly take away the ability (9th edition perhaps) but for now you can do this unless they were to explicitly say you can't.
As I see it you would get clan traits because <Clan> is on the datasheet. You wouldn't however get DDD because that special rule is not in the index datasheets.
(At least that would be my rules lawyer interpretation, a tournament might decide that if all Ork units get DDD the index ones can too.)
Chaos Legionnaire wrote: I am sure that this question has already been answered at some point in the last 80+ pages, but after the codex drops, will we still be able to use rokkit buggies from the index in matched play games ( assuming that they won’t be in the codex)?
If so, would they benefit from clan traits, DDD, etc.?
I haven’t got to play a whole lot so far in 8th so I’m not sure how this works. I just know that I have 15 rokkit buggies and wondered if I need to begin converting them into the newer vehicles.
If the datasheet isn't in the new codex you can use the index. Admittedly one day they will almost certainly take away the ability (9th edition perhaps) but for now you can do this unless they were to explicitly say you can't.
As I see it you would get clan traits because <Clan> is on the datasheet. You wouldn't however get DDD because that special rule is not in the index datasheets.
(At least that would be my rules lawyer interpretation, a tournament might decide that if all Ork units get DDD the index ones can too.)
As someone who has built up quite a few kustom versions of the old-skool buggies I really hope they get dakkadakkadakka and the <speedfreeks> keyword. I mean, they're getting axed by GW at some point, probably 9th or in this/next CA but I'd still like to use them some more. Otherwise I'm mekking them together to create a kitbash of one of the new buggies
I really hope gw address all the points issues with orks in the new codex, so many units are costed to match space marine/imperial units while being worse versions in almost all respects.
I’d say every walker/vehicle in the ork book needs a points drop.
Guyver 3 wrote: I really hope gw address all the points issues with orks in the new codex, so many units are costed to match space marine/imperial units while being worse versions in almost all respects.
I’d say every walker/vehicle in the ork book needs a points drop.
Problem seems to be GW price weapons for the damage they could do, not for what they typically will do, they also have no concept of how to factor a models robustness into the cost, hence stuff like an Ork Tankbusta being expensive when they have a life expectancy in seconds and carry a weapon that will likely miss on the only chance it gets to fire - being priced as if its hitting every single turn...
Ork vehicles either need a price drop or a significant uplift in the wound count for the robustness and weapons need to drop to account for the BS5+.
Boyz going up a point I have no issues with, you can still spam them at 7 points if you want, but combined with other stuff going down it provides a reason to have a more mixed army
Some Orky weapons are insanely good in a vacuum it’s only when you factor in bad saves,bad bs and 0 survivability in a meta that meq and teq struggles in that you realise they aren’t worth the points.
So, not to repost what ive stated in another thread, but that thread hasnt got activity in weeks, and I would like to add to the discussion:
Since we know that there are 6 main clans but we've seen rules for 7, and the general thinking is that Freebootas are the odd ones out, what if Freebootas somehow gain a rule that lets them be allied in with other factions?
It makes sense in the fluff since freebootas get hired by other races and such, and it would help out in gameplay as well.
It would allow alliances with tau, and strangely necrons, which are factions that need help and would greatly boost the effectiveness of Orks.
My thinking would be that if such a thing happened, the lust would have to be built that the FB can only have one detachment and the other detachments must be the same allied factipn or else tau/ ork/ necron alliances and therefore xenos soup would be an option.
I would also imagine somethibg orecentinf alliances with nids and that speaks for itself.
My guess is that Freebootas keyword will be limited to Badrukk and Flash Gitz, will have a stratagem associated with it and units with the keyword will be able to fit into any faction-keyword Orks detachment without negating any Klan effects. I don't expect we will be able to ally with other factions and personally I would prefer it that way.
Similar to triarch units in the necron book
You can fit them in any necron detachment without losing the detachment bonuses, I’m guessing freebootas will have a similar rule.
leopard wrote: Would be nice to see Blood Axes regain the ability to have "Human Mercenaries" in an army, real blast from the past stuff
It would have been cool - but that implies conversions and GW only does that reluctantly and/or for Marines (see Grandmaster baby carrier)
We should have the option for Humun Mercs/traitors/Converts for Orks/Chaos/Tau and standalone Pirates - I still have Chapter Approved (the first one) where it was a thing
leopard wrote: Would be nice to see Blood Axes regain the ability to have "Human Mercenaries" in an army, real blast from the past stuff
It would have been cool - but that implies conversions and GW only does that reluctantly and/or for Marines (see Grandmaster baby carrier)
We should have the option for Humun Mercs/traitors/Converts for Orks/Chaos/Tau and standalone Pirates - I still have Chapter Approved (the first one) where it was a thing
It would be great if FW would do some more ork stuff. That kind of thing seems ideal for interesting sculpts that would sell to collectors. Sadly, they seem to have got the marine bug as bad as the main studio.
Like others have said, I expect that Freebooterz will likely be similar to the auxillaries that IG and Tau have that can be part of a detachment without losing the Clan Kultur. It is definitely possible that they'll get their own Clan-equivalent rules, but I would guess they'll probably just get a couple stratagems.
I doubt this will be the case, but I think it would be interesting if Freebooterz was a clan keyword that you could give to ork units where they didn't get any Clan Kultur rule but got access to every clan-specific stratagem.
I have mixed feeling on Flash Gitz all being Freebooterz. As a Bad Moon player I feel like I'm missing out in one of our iconic units. On the other hand in some sources all Flash Gitz are said to eventually become Freebooterz, with Bad Moons just being the most common source (some other sources make it sound like there are Flash Gitz that still belong to a clan). Oh well, if they make Kustom and Kombi shootas worthwhile having Flash Gitz all be Freebootaz won't bother me that much.
leopard wrote: Would be nice to see Blood Axes regain the ability to have "Human Mercenaries" in an army, real blast from the past stuff
It would have been cool - but that implies conversions and GW only does that reluctantly and/or for Marines (see Grandmaster baby carrier)
We should have the option for Humun Mercs/traitors/Converts for Orks/Chaos/Tau and standalone Pirates - I still have Chapter Approved (the first one) where it was a thing
It would be great if FW would do some more ork stuff. That kind of thing seems ideal for interesting sculpts that would sell to collectors. Sadly, they seem to have got the marine bug as bad as the main studio.
I remember someone saying that the ork stuff didn't sell well, as their target audience was more likely to invest a lot of effort and money into a scratch-build model than into one bought from forgeworld. Meanwhile, scratch-built space marine or eldar vehicles never look as good as forgeworld models.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Man you guys are spoiled. 2CP for an army easily taking in CP to give you guys a 5+ that's not just ignored by every gun in the game for a unit of 30 dudes.
I mean what do you guys want?
Guard get it at 4ppm and no cp.
We don't want that. Fair would be 6ppm orks at 5+ and no cp or 4+ orks at 7ppm and 2cp.
For 2 points you lose BS4+ and the 5+, and you get an additional point of S, T, A, and a rule that slightly mitigates the lesser BS level.
If you don't think that evens out at all you are super spoiled and have no concept of balance whatsoever.
Then again s and a is irrelevant as boyz didn#t get into combat when they were 6 pts and now at 7 who bothers with them...
People have misconception that orks are good h2h army or that they plan to get into h2h when neither is true. They just aim to keep opponent in dz and hope orks don't get blown out before game ends.
leopard wrote: Would be nice to see Blood Axes regain the ability to have "Human Mercenaries" in an army, real blast from the past stuff
It would have been cool - but that implies conversions and GW only does that reluctantly and/or for Marines (see Grandmaster baby carrier)
We should have the option for Humun Mercs/traitors/Converts for Orks/Chaos/Tau and standalone Pirates - I still have Chapter Approved (the first one) where it was a thing
It would be great if FW would do some more ork stuff. That kind of thing seems ideal for interesting sculpts that would sell to collectors. Sadly, they seem to have got the marine bug as bad as the main studio.
I remember someone saying that the ork stuff didn't sell well, as their target audience was more likely to invest a lot of effort and money into a scratch-build model than into one bought from forgeworld. Meanwhile, scratch-built space marine or eldar vehicles never look as good as forgeworld models.
That's a pity, they did do a good job with Zhadsnark, the Mega/Meka-Dred and the Kill tanks. IA8 was one of my favourite IA books by far, though after seeing the moolah from 30K, I'm not surprised to see them say NOPE to xenos. Look at how long they're taking to release Fires of Cyraxus.
The upgrade stratagems for boyz is an interesting way of doing things. I wonder if they will have a different version for each clan or if they'll just have Skarboyz for Goffs and 'Ardboyz as a universal?
One problem is that the cost doesn't change with the size of the mob. The upgrade stratagems might be great for 30 boyz but terrible for 10. Maybe that's a way for them to try to keep ork players from going extreme MSU to generate tons of CP? From the Goff standpoint a green tide list is pretty fluffy. It seems like a lot of people have mechanized 'Ard Boy armies, which wouldn't do so well with the rumored 'Ard Boyz stratagem at 2 CP.
Maybe they'll price it based on the size of the mob? Like 1 CP for 10 Boyz, 2 CP for 11-20, and 3 CP for 21-30?
It also has me thinking about other possible upgrade stratagems. Cyborks, Madboyz, Trukk Boyz, etc.
leopard wrote: Would be nice to see Blood Axes regain the ability to have "Human Mercenaries" in an army, real blast from the past stuff
It would have been cool - but that implies conversions and GW only does that reluctantly and/or for Marines (see Grandmaster baby carrier)
We should have the option for Humun Mercs/traitors/Converts for Orks/Chaos/Tau and standalone Pirates - I still have Chapter Approved (the first one) where it was a thing
It would be great if FW would do some more ork stuff. That kind of thing seems ideal for interesting sculpts that would sell to collectors. Sadly, they seem to have got the marine bug as bad as the main studio.
I remember someone saying that the ork stuff didn't sell well, as their target audience was more likely to invest a lot of effort and money into a scratch-build model than into one bought from forgeworld. Meanwhile, scratch-built space marine or eldar vehicles never look as good as forgeworld models.
And then they do stupid things like they are doing with the speed freakz game. My game store has 2 on order for the store....zero pre-orders for players. Almost nobody wants to pay $150 for 6 warbikes and 2 unknown quality Buggies. How about the "Ork" get started box set that has a Dread (One of the worst vehicles in the game) some boyz, a painboy and nobz.....almost none of that is worth playing at the moment and we lack a HQ now that they moved painboyz to Elite. Then we have our Kill team set....4 burnas and a Mek......again, who needs/wants burnas and a mek? Maybe the problem isn't that Ork players don't buy GW stuff, its that GW doesn't know how to price/market ork stuff. Ive been modeling Kommandos for awhile now because I refuse to pay $45 for 5 models worth 45pts
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Man you guys are spoiled. 2CP for an army easily taking in CP to give you guys a 5+ that's not just ignored by every gun in the game for a unit of 30 dudes.
I mean what do you guys want?
Guard get it at 4ppm and no cp.
We don't want that. Fair would be 6ppm orks at 5+ and no cp or 4+ orks at 7ppm and 2cp.
For 2 points you lose BS4+ and the 5+, and you get an additional point of S, T, A, and a rule that slightly mitigates the lesser BS level.
If you don't think that evens out at all you are super spoiled and have no concept of balance whatsoever.
Then again s and a is irrelevant as boyz didn#t get into combat when they were 6 pts and now at 7 who bothers with them...
People have misconception that orks are good h2h army or that they plan to get into h2h when neither is true. They just aim to keep opponent in dz and hope orks don't get blown out before game ends.
The army is literally made to get into melee now. Just because Infantry are almost a point undercosted doesn't mean Boyz aren't competitively priced.
SemperMortis wrote: And then they do stupid things like they are doing with the speed freakz game. My game store has 2 on order for the store....zero pre-orders for players. Almost nobody wants to pay $150 for 6 warbikes and 2 unknown quality Buggies. How about the "Ork" get started box set that has a Dread (One of the worst vehicles in the game) some boyz, a painboy and nobz.....almost none of that is worth playing at the moment and we lack a HQ now that they moved painboyz to Elite. Then we have our Kill team set....4 burnas and a Mek......again, who needs/wants burnas and a mek? Maybe the problem isn't that Ork players don't buy GW stuff, its that GW doesn't know how to price/market ork stuff. Ive been modeling Kommandos for awhile now because I refuse to pay $45 for 5 models worth 45pts
None of that has anything to do with FW though. There are two reasons to buy from FW since 5th edition
1) To have rules that do something the codex can't/the codex does worse. Hasn't happened a lot due to FW legendary insight on rules-writing, but supa-cannons, Zhadsnark, flakkatrukk, warkoptas or big trakks fall into this category. Depending on price, you actually see the original models, but most are still scratch-build, because the players want the rules, not the model.
2) To have centerpiece or unique model that makes your army unique. This is the kind of players the whole FW range aims to please, to have something to sell for those who spend a lot of money on the hobby for a long time. Ork players usually create those models themselves, because building your own klawstompa, mega dread, killtank or battlefortress is part of the appear of collecting orks. Last, but not least, it is a lot easier to do than building your own warhound titan or sicarian and the results often look better than what FW has to offer. Any infantry unit they would create is just ork boyz or nob + bits, so that wouldn't sell great either.
In general, the entire FW range is aimed at collectors and hobbyist, not at competitive players. Ork collectors and hobbyists usually don't dump hundreds of pounds on a model that looks exactly like a model that someone else has.
For 2 points you lose BS4+ and the 5+, and you get an additional point of S, T, A, and a rule that slightly mitigates the lesser BS level.
If you don't think that evens out at all you are super spoiled and have no concept of balance whatsoever.
Then again s and a is irrelevant as boyz didn#t get into combat when they were 6 pts and now at 7 who bothers with them...
People have misconception that orks are good h2h army or that they plan to get into h2h when neither is true. They just aim to keep opponent in dz and hope orks don't get blown out before game ends.
The army is literally made to get into melee now. Just because Infantry are almost a point undercosted doesn't mean Boyz aren't competitively priced.
Where are the Orks winning tourneys if they are "as competitively priced [as Imperial Guard]". You are assuming an Ork Boy is able to do optimal damage every round while ignoring morale like an Imperial Guardsman, which just isn't true.
Claiming "...no concept of balance whatsover..." while ignoring that is just plain hypocrisy; and frankly damn rude.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Man you guys are spoiled. 2CP for an army easily taking in CP to give you guys a 5+ that's not just ignored by every gun in the game for a unit of 30 dudes.
Yet again we're paying (right now) 420+ points for an optimal three troop choice for a Battalion, where's the "Easy" CP?
Also as mentioned earlier in the thread. Boyz are moving to a larger base which yet again makes it harder for them to be optimal (as compared to sit and roll dice of the IG).
Math hammer works only if you're willing to take into account all the variables. Lets also not forget the whole shebang of soup cherry picking that all Imperial munchkins do.
The army is literally made to get into melee now. Just because Infantry are almost a point undercosted doesn't mean Boyz aren't competitively priced.
They aren't when sub standard gunline blows 60+ a turn. More if you use da jump. Ork boyz didn't get into combat with index and now there's going to be lot less of them. 240 boyz(so that some might actually get into combat), 240 pts more to dig somewhere. That's 40 boyz. 200 boyz=you are out of boyz on turn 4. so if you go 2nd you get to charge line of chaff on T3 with your whopping 20 boyz and then on T4 your opponent blows them up.
I shudder to think how many boyz GOOD gunline(especially one that has not tons of lascannons and equilavent in in) blows up a turn. If not even optimized list that packs tons of low-ROF high S tank busting guns blows 60+ models a turn...
It takes long time to get to combat, orks aren't even all that tough and orks lost all they had in combat when 8th ed hit. They don't pack punch(vehicles just laugh at orks) and either they wipe out chaff unit(wee! chaff that's not even contributing to the shooting all that much dies...whoo!) or chaff simply leaves and you get blown apart. So you struggle to reach combat, get most of your guys shot and then when you get you just deal with some chaff and even if you somehow get into combat with something beefy like tank that's blowing up huge chunks of your units you don't actually make a dent in it! It takes full unit of boyz to cause even 6 wounds to leman russ and no IG player who is better than a newbie will let that happen anyway. Why would he? Easy to either shoot your units <20(which cuts down punch a lot) and/or ensures you don't have speed to get all into combat anyway. And even that is on turn 4+ anyway due to chaff being used to block before and on turn 4 you have lost 180-240 boyz depending on who went first.
The army is literally made to get into melee now. Just because Infantry are almost a point undercosted doesn't mean Boyz aren't competitively priced.
They aren't when sub standard gunline blows 60+ a turn. More if you use da jump. Ork boyz didn't get into combat with index and now there's going to be lot less of them. 240 boyz(so that some might actually get into combat), 240 pts more to dig somewhere. That's 40 boyz. 200 boyz=you are out of boyz on turn 4. so if you go 2nd you get to charge line of chaff on T3 with your whopping 20 boyz and then on T4 your opponent blows them up.
I shudder to think how many boyz GOOD gunline(especially one that has not tons of lascannons and equilavent in in) blows up a turn. If not even optimized list that packs tons of low-ROF high S tank busting guns blows 60+ models a turn...
It takes long time to get to combat, orks aren't even all that tough and orks lost all they had in combat when 8th ed hit. They don't pack punch(vehicles just laugh at orks) and either they wipe out chaff unit(wee! chaff that's not even contributing to the shooting all that much dies...whoo!) or chaff simply leaves and you get blown apart. So you struggle to reach combat, get most of your guys shot and then when you get you just deal with some chaff and even if you somehow get into combat with something beefy like tank that's blowing up huge chunks of your units you don't actually make a dent in it! It takes full unit of boyz to cause even 6 wounds to leman russ and no IG player who is better than a newbie will let that happen anyway. Why would he? Easy to either shoot your units <20(which cuts down punch a lot) and/or ensures you don't have speed to get all into combat anyway. And even that is on turn 4+ anyway due to chaff being used to block before and on turn 4 you have lost 180-240 boyz depending on who went first.
But should a slow foot horde really win against a proper gunline? I think tactics wise its like assulting a machinegun nest from the front with infantry waves, wich would loose. The counter should be rapid or armoured elements right? Now i know deep striking is hard because of the chaff. But maybe the new buggies will provide some fast distruption units with enough durability and quantity for the task?
We allready know the cost of buggies. They won't be that useful. Especially not for footsloggers.
Anywayz, i don't think that it's all that bad. Trukks went down around 20 pts each. Probably tankbustas will. So, 2 trukks with tb is around 50 pts off from what they are now.
If you're running snakebites, blood axez or deffskullz, that's a durability increase right there.
We also get greentide strategem that reses a squad of boyz. Deepstrike strategem - best used with evil sunz - to get into combat from the get go. Also, an awesome fight twice strategem.
So far, we don't need to rebase all the boyz.
We have slight improvements here and there.
Grotshields.
Overall, i think it's gona be a slight improvement even for hordes. Yes, you're goba have less boyz but they'll be tougher, will hit harder and will have more wayz of getting into combat. Besides, it's a knight meta, so 7 ppm boyz are still an anti-meta for many armies. And now when we get 6++ we actually get a save without paying for a kff mek. Consider this 1 ppm to be half a mek without all the hassle of playing around with positioning.
Sensibly, infantry charge vs gun line should be a bad choice. Suppression of the gun line plus infiltration tactics, or isolation of the line and besieging the position would be better. Neither option is viable for a five turn, 40k game.
A gamer can only work within game parameters. If the game does not have the tools to give an even chance of winning, it fails as a game. What would apply to ‘real life’ might not be workable in a game.
Hence the irritation of Ork players. The game dictates their choices, then does not give them an even chance of winning.
koooaei wrote: We allready know the cost of buggies. They won't.
I'm going to start collecting all these doomsayer quotes (not just yours) and use them as my signature until the next codex if you are wrong. I still remember people going on rants for pages and pages about how GW ruined boyz in 8th when the indexes dropped.
Well, you can collect mine, i don't mind but only if you get the signature of you saying we're all wrong about the buggies...if/when we are actually proven to be right.
I was saying from the get go. Even before we got a hint at rules for buggies. They will be bad for horde orks. Thus, bad for most players out there. It's no rocket science that you need redundancy. And buggies are a different concept to boy hordes. The only way for them to be used a lot is them getting insane durability in addition to anti-tank potential that tankbustas have.
And i never believed we'd get those. As i've stated before, 70 pts is the point where sag buggy starts to compete with trukk tankbustas. And it costs around 100.
Jidmah wrote: I'm going to start collecting all these doomsayer quotes (not just yours) and use them as my signature until the next codex if you are wrong. I still remember people going on rants for pages and pages about how GW ruined boyz in 8th when the indexes dropped.
Well boyz have never BEEN good in 8th ed so...Being least sucky unit out of orks doesn't make them somehow good. Just least sucky out of sucky options.
I was pretty annoyed by The Long War podcast (Ep 170 I think) where they're talking about the buggies and speculating costs. They get to the shokkjump dragsta and basically state that it could really good if its points are "spicy". By that they evidently meant between 60-65 points. Like honestly, what the hell are they on about.
The shokkjump dragsta basically has two lascannons, sure they're shorter range and one point less strength and can cause a mortal wound on yourself. But they can also cause additional mortal wounds on the enemy and with dakkadakkadaka those two shots can actually become 4 shots if you're lucky. Even if you don't think that's fair (I don't know the math) it also has a rokkit launcha (albeit at BS5+) for good measure.
A space marine lascannon is 25 points, 2 of them 50. A space marine is 13 points. They want the buggy to cost the same as a space marine somehow carrying two lascannons. Even though it's far more durable, faster, can teleport and better in close combat.
I really don't understand what argument they were trying to make, cause they certainly didn't verbalize it well. Normally speaking at least Fore has a good grasp of the game
tneva82 wrote: Well that space marine at least is going to have ablative wounds rather than being easily targeted and taken out by the enemy.
Though yeah 60 pts is way too low. But 100-120 and you won't be able to have multiples of them easily and 1 is taken out easily.
120 I think is going to be a bit rich. At 100 I really think they can work out, would have to try them for a few games but they just might. Obviously as a glass cannon and it certainly shouldn't be your only anti-tank in the army but hopefully it's fast enough to be able to hide away from some of the scary stuff and threaten with a few choice jumps throughout the game.
At 80 I feel that these things are a steal (again, speculation), at 60 they'd be broken. You could bring 9 of them (3 squads of three) for 540 points, that's just insane. At 60 points they'd be cheap enough to use as roadblocks in a bind, just teleport up and turn the base sideways and you've blocked off a huge chunk of the battlefield
tneva82 wrote: Well that space marine at least is going to have ablative wounds rather than being easily targeted and taken out by the enemy.
Though yeah 60 pts is way too low. But 100-120 and you won't be able to have multiples of them easily and 1 is taken out easily.
120 I think is going to be a bit rich. At 100 I really think they can work out, would have to try them for a few games but they just might. Obviously as a glass cannon and it certainly shouldn't be your only anti-tank in the army but hopefully it's fast enough to be able to hide away from some of the scary stuff and threaten with a few choice jumps throughout the game.
At 80 I feel that these things are a steal (again, speculation), at 60 they'd be broken. You could bring 9 of them (3 squads of three) for 540 points, that's just insane. At 60 points they'd be cheap enough to use as roadblocks in a bind, just teleport up and turn the base sideways and you've blocked off a huge chunk of the battlefield
With TLOS and size of those buggies speed isn't going to be much of a help. Speed is more of if you deploy on wrong flank you can get within 24" of enemy anyway.
Oh and if you want road block try grot. 60 pts will give you 42" wide roadblock at need That's fun vs foot slogging assault army if you happen to run into one of those rare breeds.
Ork are all about redundancy, you need multiples of any unit to do the job as every unit dies so easily, gw has proved time and again that they just don’t know how to cost ork units properly and I don’t see this changing
Gw have constantly pointed orks as some kind of equivalent to imperial units when they are generally not as good in every respect, I don’t think the inherent problems with orks will be solved by adding 4 new vehicles to the mix, even if one of them is pretty ok on paper.
These buggies at least make mechanised lists more viable, as they contribute to armor saturation while also bringing some much needed reliable anti-tank weapons.
But it's pretty obvious that at 100 and 120pts they'll cost too much to be really competitive by themselves. Their saving grace might be the alleged cost reduction of the Battlewagon : bring 3 Battlewagons, some Trukks and several buggies and some might survive till turn 3...
To be fair, marines holding lascannons aren't a measure of efficiency.
That said, stat-wise the shockjump dragsta compares well to a landspeeder, blight hauler or a dread/helbrute. All of them clock in around 140 points when armed similarly to the dragsta, and PL7 tells us this one is close by.
Jidmah wrote: To be fair, marines holding lascannons aren't a measure of efficiency.
That said, stat-wise the shockjump dragsta compares well to a landspeeder, blight hauler or a dread/helbrute. All of them clock in around 140 points when armed similarly to the dragsta, and PL7 tells us this one is close by.
No, sure. Although I'd argue marines with lascannons are one of the more decent thing in that codex. Also, the dragsta is PL6 (thankfully), only the squigbuggy is PL7. PL6 would still mean between 110-130 points logically. Which is almost guaranteed to be too much in any sort of competitive environment.
With TLOS and size of those buggies speed isn't going to be much of a help. Speed is more of if you deploy on wrong flank you can get within 24" of enemy anyway.
Oh and if you want road block try grot. 60 pts will give you 42" wide roadblock at need That's fun vs foot slogging assault army if you happen to run into one of those rare breeds.
I meant as a roadblock somewhere far away on the battlefield, where the grot force couldn't reach. Say your opponent needs to grab an objective and you'd jump that to block off the best path. Niche I know, but the point was that at 60 points that wouldn't even be a waste to tie up in CC really
I think any success to be had with orks will highly depend on stratagems and objectives, while it’s pretty obvious that the orks units themselves won’t undergo many changes, if the objectives are easy to achieve and the stratagems are effective at letting us achieve them then orks will improve as an army.
I’ve been back and forth with this release but orks literally can’t be worse than the current index rules.
PiñaColada wrote: I meant as a roadblock somewhere far away on the battlefield, where the grot force couldn't reach. Say your opponent needs to grab an objective and you'd jump that to block off the best path. Niche I know, but the point was that at 60 points that wouldn't even be a waste to tie up in CC really
That's what da jump is good for. You are going to have weirdboys anyway. I have been doing that one for months.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Guyver 3 wrote: I’ve been back and forth with this release but orks literally can’t be worse than the current index rules.
Oh yes they can. The only unit that wasn't automatic turn 2-3 wipeout already got nerfed to oblivion so now it's question of did any other unit get boosted sufficiently to replace them.
koooaei wrote: I honestly don't see 7 ppm boyz as such a severe nerf. Remember, they also got better rules and strategems.
So did every other unit. For GW those are 0 pts. Gap between codex orks and codex-whatever increased compared to index ork vs index-whatever.
Also many of those traits etc only matter if you get into close combat. Orks didn't get there before being blown apart by 60+ model shooting gunlines when they cost 6 pts. They won't make there now either. Especially as the traits aren't even helping there that much. 6++. Hah. Not nearly enough(especially when you just lost almost 16% of your boyz). Orks often enough had 5++ anyway. 6+++ isn't much better and again something that a) they had before anyway b) is negated by multitudes of multi damage weapons anyway.
If you want boyz one token unit for deep strike strategem is enough and even there probably are better options. Gorkanaut might actually be worth taking with that so why waste good strategem on bad boyz.
Also new ork players are hit by double nerf. 7ppm boyz and 32mm bases.
koooaei wrote: But why would you need buggies if you would just be ablre to get more tankbustas for at?
The dragsta shoots just as good as tank bustas when not aiming at vehicles, it will not be lose half its shooting when shot at by intercessors, is twice as fast as tank bustas and can rapidly redeploy to the other side of the board to grab objectives, shoot better targets or hide from destruction. It's better in combat as well.
Unless we are talking tankbustas in a trukk, in which case they will do only .8 more wounds against vehicles and less against any other targets - assuming dragsta is 140 points and the trukk will go down by 20%.
By the way, does anybody know the type of bases the bikes come with in the Speed Freeks box? I think I'll rebase my bikes and GW don't seem to mention it in the description of the box..
PiñaColada wrote: No, sure. Although I'd argue marines with lascannons are one of the more decent thing in that codex. Also, the dragsta is PL6 (thankfully), only the squigbuggy is PL7. PL6 would still mean between 110-130 points logically. Which is almost guaranteed to be too much in any sort of competitive environment.
Oh right, it's just PL6, even better, which means they are cheaper than other, similar things that are borderline competitive
I personally think both the squigbuggy and the snazzwagon are a lost case already, no matter what they cost and what strategems they get unless they have some aura we don't know of yet. They are simply yet another anti-infantry platform in an army that has never had any issue slaughtering infantry.
koooaei wrote: But why would you need buggies if you would just be ablre to get more tankbustas for at?
The dragsta shoots just as good as tank bustas when not aiming at vehicles, it will not be lose half its shooting when shot at by intercessors, is twice as fast as tank bustas and can rapidly redeploy to the other side of the board to grab objectives, shoot better targets or hide from destruction. It's better in combat as well.
Unless we are talking tankbustas in a trukk, in which case they will do only .8 more wounds against vehicles and less against any other targets - assuming dragsta is 140 points and the trukk will go down by 20%.
It's definitely a worthwhile side-grade.
That is indeed close to a sidegrade. However, it's still in favor of tankbustas
Assuming they don't get a nerf.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I mean just think about it. 120 pts. For 8 t6 4+ armored wounds. That's like 3 times easier to kill than a venom.
PiñaColada wrote: By the way, does anybody know the type of bases the bikes come with in the Speed Freeks box? I think I'll rebase my bikes and GW don't seem to mention it in the description of the box..
And huge bases make it harder to hide and move than trukks.
And tankbustas are not insta dead the moment a truck gets blown away.
My understanding of a game tells me that i'll start considering this shokk buggy at 80 pts. And start thinking they're a worthwhile sidegrade over trukkbustaz at 70.
tneva82 wrote: Well that space marine at least is going to have ablative wounds rather than being easily targeted and taken out by the enemy.
Though yeah 60 pts is way too low. But 100-120 and you won't be able to have multiples of them easily and 1 is taken out easily.
120 I think is going to be a bit rich. At 100 I really think they can work out, would have to try them for a few games but they just might. Obviously as a glass cannon and it certainly shouldn't be your only anti-tank in the army but hopefully it's fast enough to be able to hide away from some of the scary stuff and threaten with a few choice jumps throughout the game.
At 80 I feel that these things are a steal (again, speculation), at 60 they'd be broken. You could bring 9 of them (3 squads of three) for 540 points, that's just insane. At 60 points they'd be cheap enough to use as roadblocks in a bind, just teleport up and turn the base sideways and you've blocked off a huge chunk of the battlefield
100 points sounds about right really. You get an incredibly quick non-degrading BS3+ Las-Talon with half a missile launcher (because BS5+) on a not-too-incredibly-squishy platform that against a shooty army has a decent chance to be able to hide in CC in T1 with Wartrike support.
tneva82 can you please lay off the "Boyz are useless at 7ppm" mantra already. The codex isn't even out yet.
I find it kinda funny that at 6ppm it's totally worth it to spam boyz and only boyz and at 7ppm they are suddenly utter trash not worth taking at all. A one point difference taking a model from autoinclude to never-include. Hyperbole at its finest.
Weazel wrote: tneva82 can you please lay off the "Boyz are useless at 7ppm" mantra already. The codex isn't even out yet.
I find it kinda funny that at 6ppm it's totally worth it to spam boyz and only boyz and at 7ppm they are suddenly utter trash not worth taking at all. A one point difference taking a model from autoinclude to never-include. Hyperbole at its finest.
to be fair, it happened to conscripts. Alongside a comi nerf
Weazel wrote: tneva82 can you please lay off the "Boyz are useless at 7ppm" mantra already. The codex isn't even out yet.
I find it kinda funny that at 6ppm it's totally worth it to spam boyz and only boyz and at 7ppm they are suddenly utter trash not worth taking at all. A one point difference taking a model from autoinclude to never-include. Hyperbole at its finest.
to be fair, it happened to conscripts. Alongside a comi nerf
Yes but guardsmen are so similar troops only better. Can the same be said about gretchins really? They dont even have the same battlefield role
I think that 7 ppm will even out with clan traits (obviously not all but still) and will get on the better part with strategems. Regenning 30 boyz and outflanking them is really powerful. So is getting an extra deepstriking squad.
Our lists will have less boyz, thst's true, but not that much less if you come to think about the trukk point reduction.
Another thing is that we might actually get more grots either to get more cp to regen more boyz and fight twice more often or to use as grot shields. Or both.
Also, we might get a couple useful magic powers to make boyz better.
koooaei wrote: But why would you need buggies if you would just be ablre to get more tankbustas for at?
The dragsta shoots just as good as tank bustas when not aiming at vehicles, it will not be lose half its shooting when shot at by intercessors, is twice as fast as tank bustas and can rapidly redeploy to the other side of the board to grab objectives, shoot better targets or hide from destruction. It's better in combat as well.
Unless we are talking tankbustas in a trukk, in which case they will do only .8 more wounds against vehicles and less against any other targets - assuming dragsta is 140 points and the trukk will go down by 20%.
It's definitely a worthwhile side-grade.
That is indeed close to a sidegrade. However, it's still in favor of tankbustas
Assuming they don't get a nerf.
I assume that the single tank bustas go up in points so they end up costing the same after rokkits (and maybe their other weapons) going down. Free tank hammers would be nice.
Also note that the buggy is vastly superior when shooting daemon primarchs, greater daemons or tyranids as tank bustas don't get re-rolls against those. They also do slightly better when shooting multi-wound infantry or bikes, but the difference is very small due to d6 damage having a chance to not kill a model where D3 does not.
koooaei wrote: And huge bases make it harder to hide and move than trukks.
And tankbustas are not insta dead the moment a truck gets blown away.
My understanding of a game tells me that i'll start considering this shokk buggy at 80 pts. And start thinking they're a worthwhile sidegrade over trukkbustaz at 70.
You might want to do that math on that. Trukk went from 5 PL to 3, so let's assume points go down by the same ratio to 49. So 12 tankbustas in a trukk are 253, two shockjump dragsta are probably in the same point range.
12 rokkits vs VEHICLE (T7/3+) 6.66 hits, 4.44 wounds, 2.96 x 3 damage = 8.88 damage vs other 4 hits, 2.66 wounds, 1.77 x 3 damage = 5.31 damage Big shoota 1 hit, .33 wounds, .11 x 1 damage
Total: Tankbustas do 8.99 damage vs VEHICLES and 5.42 damage against anything else. Dragstas deal 6.08 damage against everything.
At 80 points you would get three dragstas that deal 9.12 damage to everything and make tank bustas obsolete because they cost more and deal less damage.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also don't forget that you can field both tank bustas in trukks and buggies at the same time. My opponents have no issues taking out two trukks turn 1 and wiping my tank bustas by turn 2.
I would aim for a setup with shokkjump dragstas (and/or scrapjets), KMB and trukkbustas, combined with some planes, a morkanaut and BW with nobz or boyz. They will not be able to kill everything before it hits them.
Weazel wrote: tneva82 can you please lay off the "Boyz are useless at 7ppm" mantra already. The codex isn't even out yet.
I find it kinda funny that at 6ppm it's totally worth it to spam boyz and only boyz and at 7ppm they are suddenly utter trash not worth taking at all. A one point difference taking a model from autoinclude to never-include. Hyperbole at its finest.
boys are only good at 6 points from a counter meta standpoint. if you spam them then all their enemy's counter tank points are wasted. it is very hard to build a tournament list capable of dealing with slam captains, imperial knights and guard cp farm and still be able to take 200+ boys off the table. a ork boy really as is is closer to 5 points and maybe clan traits will make them worth the 6 ion a mixed unit list.
Weazel wrote: tneva82 can you please lay off the "Boyz are useless at 7ppm" mantra already. The codex isn't even out yet.
I find it kinda funny that at 6ppm it's totally worth it to spam boyz and only boyz and at 7ppm they are suddenly utter trash not worth taking at all. A one point difference taking a model from autoinclude to never-include. Hyperbole at its finest.
boys are only good at 6 points from a counter meta standpoint. if you spam them then all their enemy's counter tank points are wasted. it is very hard to build a tournament list capable of dealing with slam captains, imperial knights and guard cp farm and still be able to take 200+ boys off the table. a ork boy really as is is closer to 5 points and maybe clan traits will make them worth the 6 ion a mixed unit list.
Unless we are talking tankbustas in a trukk, in which case they will do only .8 more wounds against vehicles and less against any other targets - assuming dragsta is 140 points and the trukk will go down by 20%.
[...]
I mean just think about it. 120 pts. For 8 t6 4+ armored wounds. That's like 3 times easier to kill than a venom.
tneva82 wrote: Well that space marine at least is going to have ablative wounds rather than being easily targeted and taken out by the enemy.
Though yeah 60 pts is way too low. But 100-120 and you won't be able to have multiples of them easily and 1 is taken out easily.
120 I think is going to be a bit rich. At 100 I really think they can work out, would have to try them for a few games but they just might. Obviously as a glass cannon and it certainly shouldn't be your only anti-tank in the army but hopefully it's fast enough to be able to hide away from some of the scary stuff and threaten with a few choice jumps throughout the game.
At 80 I feel that these things are a steal (again, speculation), at 60 they'd be broken. You could bring 9 of them (3 squads of three) for 540 points, that's just insane. At 60 points they'd be cheap enough to use as roadblocks in a bind, just teleport up and turn the base sideways and you've blocked off a huge chunk of the battlefield
100 points sounds about right really. You get an incredibly quick non-degrading BS3+ Las-Talon with half a missile launcher (because BS5+) on a not-too-incredibly-squishy platform that against a shooty army has a decent chance to be able to hide in CC in T1 with Wartrike support.
yeah but just think about it... a ravenger is what 120points? its as fast and has 3 shots of s8 ap-4. it has more wounds and an invul save of 5+
or compare the squigbuggy to a venom... similar toughness, wounds and weaponary... but one comes with a native -1 to hit, 5++ and can transport 5 guys...
a venom is what? PL 3/4??? the squigbuggy is PL7 (!)
A ravager with 3 dark lances is 140 points. Its 125 with 3 dissies, which is the better loadout, but will almost certainly get a points increase in Chapter Approved.
The dragster would be an auto-take at 100 points. It would be comically broken at 80.
koooaei wrote: And huge bases make it harder to hide and move than trukks.
And tankbustas are not insta dead the moment a truck gets blown away.
My understanding of a game tells me that i'll start considering this shokk buggy at 80 pts. And start thinking they're a worthwhile sidegrade over trukkbustaz at 70.
And you're completely ignoring the cost of the trukk?
Re: this idea of only bothering with the scrapjet and/or dragsta because Orks are already good at anti-infantry...
Even then, you are still faced with the problem of getting through waves of chaff so you can attack the expensive stuff.
Why not take some boomdakka snazzwagons to help clear a path? At least if you're using a mechanised list?
As a nice bonus, couldn't you also stack their "billowing fumes" rule with the "billowing exhaust cloud" stratagem so that marines are now hitting them on fives? I know I saw a rumour that "squadrons" of 2-3 vehicles taken in one slot would still count as individual units for all rules purposes, which would make this a waste of CP, but I couldn't see that in the official "da vehicles" article (correct me if I'm wrong). It sounds to me like this will be a decent unit as long as it's cheap.
It's not really good at clearing out screens though, even if you throw burna boms after them. All that dakka amounts to maybe a dead guardian, fire warrior, guardman or lower daemon - you are more likely to kill one of those with a dragsta or scrapjet.
The best buggy for screen clearing seems to be the boosta-blasta due to those four burnas and the rive cannon.
Unless you spam buggies and only buggies, I'm not sure they are a good choice.
They suffer from the standard Ork problem; "lets make a shooty unit good at melee but charge them for it, lol!" in that their melee output looks OK, on paper, but it costs their shooting output which is far, far more powerful.
I'll run them either way, because I'm a sucker for new gubbinz and they're Evil Sunz at that, but unless their points cost is at the lower end of the power level spectrum they'll be a liability I think.
Well, this is not true at all. Anything from bikers over KMK, planes, koptas and trukks to walkers and battlewagons will add to target saturation for buggies. They fit in with any army that is not spamming infantry. I also doubt that volcano lances will be pointed at a buggy if there is are battlewagons with thrakka and scarboys inside driving up the field. Last but not least, we have plenty of clan traits that increase durability and the KFF.
Well, this is not true at all. Anything from bikers over KMK, planes, koptas and trukks to walkers and battlewagons will add to target saturation for buggies. They fit in with any army that is not spamming infantry. I also doubt that volcano lances will be pointed at a buggy if there is are battlewagons with thrakka and scarboys inside driving up the field. Last but not least, we have plenty of clan traits that increase durability and the KFF.
They'll do fine.
Exactly. In the end it’ll all come down to points costs, but stats wise T6 8W is just fine.
T6 is a great value because you pay less than you would for T7 but still you’ll be operating exactly the same when you’re being shot by: Haywire, Disintegrators, Dark/Bright Lances, Cawl’s Wrath, Volcano Lance, Pulse Lasers, Lascannons, Missile Launchers, Bolters, Shuriken Catapults, Pulse Rifles/Carbines, SMS, etc. etc. No difference in dice roll required to wound. And just like you said, the KFF will be a budget Night Shield invulnerable for all the vehicles, while the Snakebite trait is the Ulthwe/Black Heart trait should you want it.
In my mind if these are pointed low enough they have the potential to be overwhelmingly powerful. If these buggies fail to be competitive the problem most certainly won’t be fragility.
Well, this is not true at all. Anything from bikers over KMK, planes, koptas and trukks to walkers and battlewagons will add to target saturation for buggies. They fit in with any army that is not spamming infantry. I also doubt that volcano lances will be pointed at a buggy if there is are battlewagons with thrakka and scarboys inside driving up the field. Last but not least, we have plenty of clan traits that increase durability and the KFF.
They'll do fine.
Koptas and bikes are T5 so face a whole different range of effective weapons at range. You're right on the rest though, T6 and above I guess was my meaning.
Not all of your example units do particularly much damage though when not engaged in cqc, so those dreads, battlewagons full of multiple Ghazzys etc,will be ignored until they're closer.
Am I the only person who plays against players that routinely snipe and target my KFF carrying characters?
Also if you're speeding up field or teleporting around its unlikely you'll be under the KFF which means you're gonna have a bad time.
Well, this is not true at all. Anything from bikers over KMK, planes, koptas and trukks to walkers and battlewagons will add to target saturation for buggies. They fit in with any army that is not spamming infantry. I also doubt that volcano lances will be pointed at a buggy if there is are battlewagons with thrakka and scarboys inside driving up the field. Last but not least, we have plenty of clan traits that increase durability and the KFF.
They'll do fine.
Koptas and bikes are T5 so face a whole different range of effective weapons at range. You're right on the rest though, T6 and above I guess was my meaning.
Not all of your example units do particularly much damage though when not engaged in cqc, so those dreads, battlewagons full of multiple Ghazzys etc,will be ignored until they're closer.
Am I the only person who plays against players that routinely snipe and target my KFF carrying characters?
Also if you're speeding up field or teleporting around its unlikely you'll be under the KFF which means you're gonna have a bad time.
Ususally I try to hide my big meg KFF out of LoS from enemy snipers, so maybe behind a battleagon or something. It's tough to hide him completely in a lot of cases but if only 2 snipers can see him then they're no real threat. I will get a few of the buggies and am wondering if I can do away with the KFF though. I doubt the army would be anywhere near as good but I'm not really a fan of trying to squeeze everything into 9". I'll most liekly go back to the KFF (on a index big mek warbike) but it might be un to try a few games without him.
Now, if only they give us a relic shokk attack gun that is assault instead of heavy (and hopefully a few more buffs) so he can ride around with the trukkboyz
Edit: The warhammer community article for today is supposed to be snakebites, what do you all reckon we get from that? Clan rule, a stratagem and a few "top units" again, or something different?
Well, this is not true at all. Anything from bikers over KMK, planes, koptas and trukks to walkers and battlewagons will add to target saturation for buggies. They fit in with any army that is not spamming infantry. I also doubt that volcano lances will be pointed at a buggy if there is are battlewagons with thrakka and scarboys inside driving up the field. Last but not least, we have plenty of clan traits that increase durability and the KFF.
They'll do fine.
Koptas and bikes are T5 so face a whole different range of effective weapons at range. You're right on the rest though, T6 and above I guess was my meaning.
Please do provide examples of weapons that do a lot better against T5/4+ multi-wound models than against T6/4+ multi-wound models.
Not all of your example units do particularly much damage though when not engaged in cqc, so those dreads, battlewagons full of multiple Ghazzys etc,will be ignored until they're closer.
Dreads and battlewagons will be in combat turn 2 due to ramming strat or tellyporta or wartrike or because they are evil suns or because of a combination of these.
The charge range of an evil suns model near a warboss or wartrike by turn 2 is 2x(movement speed)+5x1"(evil suns trait)+2d6"(average 7)+2d6"(re-roll one or both, so average 9) with zero CP invested.
On average, a deff dread will be able to assault something 33" away from it turn 2.
Nauts can go up to to 37"
Trukks and Battlewagons can go up to 45"
Koptas, dragstas and warbikers can be in combat with something 49" away
A goff battlewagon can advance 12"+d6 turn one, unload thrakka and his scarboyz 3" and then have them move, advance and charge for a total average range of 36"+base diameter
You have precious little time to shoot buggies.
Am I the only person who plays against players that routinely snipe and target my KFF carrying characters?
Also if you're speeding up field or teleporting around its unlikely you'll be under the KFF which means you're gonna have a bad time.
Morkanaut and Wazzbom carry KFFs as well and KFF on bike also has no problems keeping up with them.
You need to think less inside your box. There is no sun there
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PiñaColada wrote: Edit: The warhammer community article for today is supposed to be snakebites, what do you all reckon we get from that? Clan rule, a stratagem and a few "top units" again, or something different?
Snakebite poster units used to be boyz, gretchin and doks, so probably those?
I'm also pretty sure that we will see the snakebite stratagem, and we will get confirmation whether the 6+++ will work on vehicles.
Headwoppa's Killchoppa - Replace big choppa
S+2 AP-2 D2 Wounds rolls of 6+ cause 2 mortal wounds in addition
Super cybork body
5+ FnP
Da Killa Klaw - Replace power klaw
Sx2 AP-3 D3 Reroll wounds
Scorched Gitbonez - Pysker only
Add 1 to psychic tests
Gitstoppa Shells - Model with kustom shoota, kombiweaponwith skorcha or kombiweapon with rokkits only
Add 1 to strength and damage of that weapons shoota or kustom shoota profile, improve the AP of that weapon by 1 as well (AP-1 becomes AP-2)
Da Lucky Stikk - Goff only
Add 1 to hit rolls made by friendly goff chracters within 6" of the bearer in the fight phase. In addition, you can reroll hit and damage rolls for attacks made by the bearer in the fight phase
Morgogs finkin cap - Blood axe only
If the bearer is your warlord you can generate a second warlord trait for them. If the bearer is not your warlord generate a warlord trait for them. The same warlord trait cannot be generated for both the bearer and the warlord.
Rezmekkas redder armour - Evil sunz only
Add 1 to the movement characteristic of a transport while this model is embarked within it. In addition, if the bearer is embarked, then at the start of your movement phase roll d6 for each enemy unit within 1" of the transport the bearr is embarked in. Ona 4+ that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds.
Da Gobshot Thunderbuss - Bad moons with kustom shoota or kombiskorcha/rokkit only
Replaces weapon with following profile
12" Heavy2d6 S5 AP-1 D1 This weapon automatically hits its target
Da Fixxer Upperz - Deathskulls model only
The bearer gains the big mekaniak ability. If the beaerer already had the big mekaniak ability, the target of the ability regains 3 lost wounds instead of d3 every time it's used
Broggs Buzzbom - Snakebite only
6" Grenade3d6 S5 AP-1 D1 This weapon can be used once per battle. After all of its attacks have been resolved, you can immediately select another enemy unit within 6" of the target and resolve 2d6 attacks against it with the sam weapon. This ability only occurs once. This weapons automatically hits its target
Da Badskull banner - Freebooterz only
Once per battle, at the start of your turn, the bearer of Da Badskull Banner can choose to fly on its boss pole. If they do so, friendly freebooter units do not have to take morale tests until the start of your next turn
Also the extra relics for 1/3cp if you like, same as everyone else
No lukky stik or finkin kap? Meh. Probably just going to take the super cybork or da ded shiny shoota.
EDIT: the clan relics are way better. Love the evil sunz and bad moon ones, lukky stikk and finking kap are kind of boring now (I think the finking kap suffers from warlord traits not being as fun as they used to be).
ZoBo wrote: the snakebites one though! think of that for screen-clearing!...get some hot rolls, there's 2 guard squads wiped out by a swarm of angry squig-bees!
- Meh. On a BS 5+ model this is only really 4 hitso are so at s4 ap-1 d1. It's like the marine bolter relics, but worse. Hard pass though it would be thematic on a bad moons or flashgitz boss.
Headwoppa's Killchoppa - Replace big choppa
S+2 AP-2 D2 Wounds rolls of 6+ cause 2 mortal wounds in addition
Very solid weapon. S8 ap-2 D2 TWO mortal wounds on a six is no joke. This is a big winner.
Super cybork body
5+ FnP
Ehhhh it's good, but I don't think it's going to be THE pick for a relic. It's not a bad option though so I won't rule it out, but I am not impressed.
Da Killa Klaw - Replace power klaw
Sx2 AP-3 D3 Reroll wounds
Yeah I mean if you have the relic slot laying around and the CP to burn it's not a bad upgrade over a normal PK. I can see it getting some use, but I prefer the kill choppa.
Scorched Gitbonez - Pysker only
Add 1 to psychic tests
Probably useless due to the weirdboy waaggh ability, but it never hurts to have more reliable psychic powers. Now if it did something interesting like let the weridboy deny powers with the additional bonuses he gets from having other orks around then we would be talking!
Gitstoppa Shells - Model with kustom shoota, kombiweaponwith skorcha or kombiweapon with rokkits only
Add 1 to strength and damage of that weapons shoota or kustom shoota profile, improve the AP of that weapon by 1 as well (AP-1 becomes AP-2)
Again this is going on a BS5+ model so good luck getting any value from it. It's somehow even worse than the dead shiny shoota.
Da Lucky Stikk - Goff only
Add 1 to hit rolls made by friendly goff chracters within 6" of the bearer in the fight phase. In addition, you can reroll hit and damage rolls for attacks made by the bearer in the fight phase
Not bad at all and an auto include if you are running some Goffs. Re-rolling hits and damage rolls is never a bad deal and the aura working on other characters is nice. It's not nearly as good as it was in 7th, but it's not bad here either. If I run Goffs I'll very likely be taking this.
Morgogs finkin cap - Blood axe only
If the bearer is your warlord you can generate a second warlord trait for them. If the bearer is not your warlord generate a warlord trait for them. The same warlord trait cannot be generated for both the bearer and the warlord.
I like this one. You're very likely paying 1 or 3cp to get another warlord trait. I can't recall all the warlord traits off of my head, but I think the blood axe one had something to do with re-deploy so this would be a neat little way to wiggle that in to your list and maintain another warlord trait on another character.
Rezmekkas redder armour - Evil sunz only
Add 1 to the movement characteristic of a transport while this model is embarked within it. In addition, if the bearer is embarked, then at the start of your movement phase roll d6 for each enemy unit within 1" of the transport the bearr is embarked in. Ona 4+ that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds.
This is an odd one. It makes you want to put your warlord in a combat transport and keep them there. I could see this having solid synergy with a cheap HQ hiding inside a mork/gorkanaught making it al ittle faster and a little more killy. Now if only the mek could repair it from the inside. Other than that it's really weird and I don't see it getting used much because unless your HQ is shooty it's being wasted hidden in a vehicle.
Da Gobshot Thunderbuss - Bad moons with kustom shoota or kombiskorcha/rokkit only
Replaces weapon with following profile
12" Heavy2d6 S5 AP-1 D1 This weapon automatically hits its target
The first good shooting relic. The range is limited, but on a fast warboss who is catching a ride this is pretty reliable. 7 hits on average is record breaking for Orks and the profile is not terrible. It comes from cheap weapons so if you are bad moons you will likely be bringing this.
Da Fixxer Upperz - Deathskulls model only
The bearer gains the big mekaniak ability. If the beaerer already had the big mekaniak ability, the target of the ability regains 3 lost wounds instead of d3 every time it's used
Yeah not bad. Adds some versatility to an HQ choice or buffs up your meks. It's basic and mostly boring, but by no means bad.
Broggs Buzzbom - Snakebite only
6" Grenade3d6 S5 AP-1 D1 This weapon can be used once per battle. After all of its attacks have been resolved, you can immediately select another enemy unit within 6" of the target and resolve 2d6 attacks against it with the sam weapon. This ability only occurs once. This weapons automatically hits its target
I like this one a lot. On a fast HQ who can get into position early this will be great for clearing screens. I can see this on a trike, bike or boss in a transport proving it's value. It's also solid against MEQ due to the strength, volume and AP. If you are snakesbites you are likely taking this.
Da Badskull banner - Freebooterz only
Once per battle, at the start of your turn, the bearer of Da Badskull Banner can choose to fly on its boss pole. If they do so, friendly freebooter units do not have to take morale tests until the start of your next turn
This one is very situational, but not useless. There are times where orks are vulnerable to morale when the mobs start dying and are cut off from each other. It's not an auto include, but can be a vital part of keeping you in a late game fight.
Jidmah wrote: Please do provide examples of weapons that do a lot better against T5/4+ multi-wound models than against T6/4+ multi-wound models.
Lasguns?
Dakkaguns?
Pulse carbines?
Any S5 weapon basically, but this is besides the point and I think you know it.
The charge range of an evil suns model near a warboss or wartrike by turn 2 is 2x(movement speed)+5x1"(evil suns trait)+2d6"(average 7)+2d6"(re-roll one or both, so average 9) with zero CP invested.
Soo they just need to be near (within 6" I think?) a wartrike (warboss doesn't give aura to vehicle) and Evil Sunz? Kinda specific.
On average, a deff dread will be able to assault something 33" away from it turn 2.
Nauts can go up to to 37"
Trukks and Battlewagons can go up to 45"
Koptas, dragstas and warbikers can be in combat with something 49" away
A goff battlewagon can advance 12"+d6 turn one, unload thrakka and his scarboyz 3" and then have them move, advance and charge for a total average range of 36"+base diameter
You have precious little time to shoot buggies.
It's interesting you bring up base diameter because from your post above I get the feeling your tables must look significantly different to mine, because mine have things like terrain and opposing models to get through. Apart from the Koptas, you've not named a flying vehicle and in my experience the board often won't allow the movement you're discussing here. This seems to be one of those expectations vs reality things, the boards are cluttered so you're not getting the Deff Dreads, Nauts, Battlewagons, Trukks and Warbikers all in combat with something. You can pick one or two of those units as natural choke points form on the table. The only exception to this of course is the Dragster if it teleports and the Koptas.
For example your goff battlewagon will be screened one way or another. Yes it has a significant threat range but when your opponent screens well it's kinda moot. You slaughter some chaff before getting blown/counter charged away.
They are the perfect choice for a Tellyporta drop, but then they don't come in until Turn 2.
And the enemy doesn't need a lot of time to kill these buggies. They don't have a durable stat line.
Morkanaut and Wazzbom carry KFFs as well and KFF on bike also has no problems keeping up with them.
You need to think less inside your box. There is no sun there
Aye they exist but does a 5++ really make these buggies that much more durable?
If they are 100ish, 120 points then these buggies are comparable to units with far superior durability and in many cases better shooting. Asscan Razorbacks dude, how much are they? Is the Dark Eldar transport the Ravager (I can't remember the name right now)? Doesn't that have a 5++ in built and isn't it comparable in cost with better ranged output?
What are you seeing that I'm not? I'd love to know how I'm going to keep these suckers alive/get best use out of them when I finally get them painted because I'll definitely be running them!
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Rezmekkas redder armour - Evil sunz only
Add 1 to the movement characteristic of a transport while this model is embarked within it. In addition, if the bearer is embarked, then at the start of your movement phase roll d6 for each enemy unit within 1" of the transport the bearr is embarked in. Ona 4+ that unit suffers d3 mortal wounds.
This is an odd one. It makes you want to put your warlord in a combat transport and keep them there. I could see this having solid synergy with a cheap HQ hiding inside a mork/gorkanaught making it al ittle faster and a little more killy. Now if only the mek could repair it from the inside. Other than that it's really weird and I don't see it getting used much because unless your HQ is shooty it's being wasted hidden in a vehicle.
This is a great relic for a cheap Mek or Big Mek even in a transport. The thing is, for it to work in any way we need some way of keeping enemies in combat. Otherwise it will literally never work as our opponent chooses to leave combat and the mortal wounds never go off. If it went off at the start of every movement phase that would be something. As it is? I think it's a pass.
Da Killa Klaw - Replace power klaw
Sx2 AP-3 D3 Reroll wounds
Yeah I mean if you have the relic slot laying around and the CP to burn it's not a bad upgrade over a normal PK. I can see it getting some use, but I prefer the kill choppa.
No -1 to hit, and it's Damage 3, not D3 damage!
Da Gobshot Thunderbuss - Bad moons with kustom shoota or kombiskorcha/rokkit only
Replaces weapon with following profile
It replaces the "shoota" portion of the weapon. So technically you can still use the skorcha component of the gun!
Da Killa Klaw - Replace power klaw
Sx2 AP-3 D3 Reroll wounds
Yeah I mean if you have the relic slot laying around and the CP to burn it's not a bad upgrade over a normal PK. I can see it getting some use, but I prefer the kill choppa.
No -1 to hit, and it's Damage 3, not D3 damage!
Da Gobshot Thunderbuss - Bad moons with kustom shoota or kombiskorcha/rokkit only
Replaces weapon with following profile
It replaces the "shoota" portion of the weapon. So technically you can still use the skorcha component of the gun!
That seems rather too generous to give Orks I'll be honest. No -1, auto 3 damage AND it re-rolls to wound? Even the space marine relics from the blood angels and crimson fists only give a set 3 damage to their thunder hammers and power fists alongside no -1 to hit. If that is the case then yeah this thing is a monster and auto include on a killy warboss.
I already liked the thunderbuss and if you can indeed use the skorcha with it that is pretty darn solid.
That seems rather too generous to give Orks I'll be honest. No -1, auto 3 damage AND it re-rolls to wound? Even the space marine relics from the blood angels and crimson fists only give a set 3 damage to their thunder hammers and power fists alongside no -1 to hit. If that is the case then yeah this thing is a monster and auto include on a killy warboss.
I already liked the thunderbuss and if you can indeed use the skorcha with it that is pretty darn solid.
If any army should be able to field the smash-captain/slamguinius type of character it should absolutely be orks.
Da Killa Klaw - Replace power klaw
Sx2 AP-3 D3 Reroll wounds
Yeah I mean if you have the relic slot laying around and the CP to burn it's not a bad upgrade over a normal PK. I can see it getting some use, but I prefer the kill choppa.
No -1 to hit, and it's Damage 3, not D3 damage!
Da Gobshot Thunderbuss - Bad moons with kustom shoota or kombiskorcha/rokkit only
Replaces weapon with following profile
It replaces the "shoota" portion of the weapon. So technically you can still use the skorcha component of the gun!
Technically speaking we don't know if it's no -1 to hit. They just don't mention it in the video, not like it specifically mentions removing that negative modifier. It could've been omitted but all signs point to it being zoggin' amazing.
The thunderbuss is great, shame it's heavy though since otherwise you could still advance and fire off 3 skorchas. Still really solid
The problem with a warboss in CC is that they die to a stiff breeze so if you have multiple charges going off you basicallly need to choose him first, since they're glass cannons. That's something a slam captain has over them. Unless you get the bad moons warlord trait I guess
Da Killa Klaw - Replace power klaw
Sx2 AP-3 D3 Reroll wounds
Yeah I mean if you have the relic slot laying around and the CP to burn it's not a bad upgrade over a normal PK. I can see it getting some use, but I prefer the kill choppa.
No -1 to hit, and it's Damage 3, not D3 damage!
Da Gobshot Thunderbuss - Bad moons with kustom shoota or kombiskorcha/rokkit only
Replaces weapon with following profile
It replaces the "shoota" portion of the weapon. So technically you can still use the skorcha component of the gun!
Technically speaking we don't know if it's no -1 to hit. They just don't mention it in the video, not like it specifically mentions removing that negative modifier.
This is my guess as well. I think it just wasnt mentioned.
Weazel wrote: tneva82 can you please lay off the "Boyz are useless at 7ppm" mantra already. The codex isn't even out yet.
I find it kinda funny that at 6ppm it's totally worth it to spam boyz and only boyz and at 7ppm they are suddenly utter trash not worth taking at all. A one point difference taking a model from autoinclude to never-include. Hyperbole at its finest.
6 ppm boyz are spammea not because they are good(they are sub mediaocre) but because they are least worst option. You either spam boyz or don't fieid orks at all.
And if codex doesn't boost other units to be worth taking over boyz(at which point boyz will never be taken) then orks took big nerf are worse of.
Simple fact is boyz swarm loses 60 modeis a turn vs suboptimal list. 6 turn game thus wipeout. 5 turn game and might avoid wipeout. However w:th 15% less boyt you last turn less. Games go minimum 5 turns so unless you slow play you are wiped out every game. This vs suboptimal gunline.
You make same mistake as fools in gw game dev and assume unit being used means it's good rather than least bad out of bad options. Orks don't have any other option to avoid wipeout if game goes 5 turns(6 turns is wipeout anyway)
Also they lost their only role in army. They were cheap bodies to sward objectives. Bs5 means they kill nothing(h2h is effectively ws7 as they won't get there) but now grots do that better being tougher
6 ppm boyz are spammea not because they are good(they are sub mediaocre) but because they are least worst option. You either spam boyz or don't fieid orks at all.
And if codex doesn't boost other units to be worth taking over boyz(at which point boyz will never be taken) then orks took big nerf are worse of.
Simple fact is boyz swarm loses 60 modeis a turn vs suboptimal list. 6 turn game thus wipeout. 5 turn game and might avoid wipeout. However w:th 15% less boyt you last turn less. Games go minimum 5 turns so unless you slow play you are wiped out every game. This vs suboptimal gunline.
You make same mistake as fools in gw game dev and assume unit being used means it's good rather than least bad out of bad options. Orks don't have any other option to avoid wipeout if game goes 5 turns(6 turns is wipeout anyway)
Also they lost their only role in army. They were cheap bodies to sward objectives. Bs5 means they kill nothing(h2h is effectively ws7 as they won't get there) but now grots do that better being tougher
I think this is a bit too pessimistic. If we are just talking survivability, you can go snakebites. You have 14.3% less orks, but those orks are 20% harder to kill. Sure the damage output suffers, but as you say, the main concern is getting into combat. A single boltgun shot (bs 4+) does 1.25 pts of damage against a 6pt boy, or 1.22 pts of damage against a 7pts snakebite boy.
And that's just if you ignore teleport strategem, green tide stratagem and Da Jump to get people in, and new strategems like get stuck in to double output if you do get into combat. On Evil Sunz, those 9 inch charges have a 64% chance of being succesful now.
Jidmah wrote: Please do provide examples of weapons that do a lot better against T5/4+ multi-wound models than against T6/4+ multi-wound models.
Lasguns?
Dakkaguns?
Pulse carbines?
Any S5 weapon basically, but this is besides the point and I think you know it.
First of all, I want to let you know that I deleted an entire answer because it felt like I was arguing what you said, rather than discussing tactics. I want to discuss tactics and not argue, so I hope you feel the same..
S5 guns tend to have AP0 or AP-1 and only deal one damage. Since there are very few targets that they are great at killing, those weapons are quite rare in many armies, S6 is much more common because it wounds many chaff units on 2+.
A full unit of warbikers deals 2.5 more wounds against other warbikers than against a buggy, a strike team deals less than one additional wound against warbikers and the entire loyal 32 deal 3 additional damage to warbikers.
So while they are undeniably taking more damage from those guns, those guns aren't actually good at killing T5 models with multiple wounds. Most common S5 guns are made for killing T3 and T4 infantry with bad saves.
Compare the numbers above to what a plague marine unit with plasma guns does to them. Or helblasters or a knight's gatling cannon or a helverine. Those are the guns buggies need to worry about, and those kill buggies just as well as warbikers.
The goal of target saturation is to overload one kind of weapons with targets so they simply can't kill everything, and guns that efficiently kill warbikers are not efficiently killing buggies at the same time.
The charge range of an evil suns model near a warboss or wartrike by turn 2 is 2x(movement speed)+5x1"(evil suns trait)+2d6"(average 7)+2d6"(re-roll one or both, so average 9) with zero CP invested.
Soo they just need to be near (within 6" I think?) a wartrike (warboss doesn't give aura to vehicle) and Evil Sunz? Kinda specific.
Note I wrote models, since it's basically true for every evil suns model with an advance&charge aura nearby. I also assumed Evil Suns, since I feel that competitive meta will use them and no other clans, similar to how other top competitive factions always use the same traits.
What you said was that there is plenty of time to kill buggies first and other stuff later. Everything can be in combat turn 2, so if the ork player goes first there is no "later".
To kill those buggies, you'll have to make a decision to not deal 8 damage to a gorkanaut, trukk or battlewagon instead.
Every army aiming to be in combat should have warbosses or wartrikes and some units are going to be close to them. With the relics released, IMO a warboss or two will be mandatory since the combination of relics with warlords traits make for some really scary close combat monsters.
It's interesting you bring up base diameter because from your post above I get the feeling your tables must look significantly different to mine, because mine have things like terrain and opposing models to get through. Apart from the Koptas, you've not named a flying vehicle and in my experience the board often won't allow the movement you're discussing here.
The movement can be circular, around screens. No-mans land is 24", leaving 21" of movement to drive around screens and terrain. Also note that the fight twice stratagem makes castling up a deadly mistake, you can clear the screen, fight again and then have valuable targets stuck in combat. Most armies can't fall back and shoot afterwards.
There is also the possibility of gunning down screens now, as our shooting units suck a lot less. With their new guns, a unit of flash gits can just blow a unit of guardsmen off the table, with hot rolling maybe even two at once.
This seems to be one of those expectations vs reality things, the boards are cluttered so you're not getting the Deff Dreads, Nauts, Battlewagons, Trukks and Warbikers all in combat with something. You can pick one or two of those units as natural choke points form on the table. The only exception to this of course is the Dragster if it teleports and the Koptas.
Unless you tables have massive walls on them or city of death style boards, nothing prevents your models from just moving over terrain (losing movement distance in the process, of course). You have plenty of movement to go over and around things. Our tables look very similar to what can be seen at NOVA, ITC and similar events. If your gaming group likes overly cluttered boards, that's cool, but not a valid argument for general tactics, since most tables don't look that way.
My death guard army consists of multiple large models with close combat focus or 9" flamer range, I have never had any issues with choke points like you described. If such positions exist, I deploy fast models (for example, a wartrike and a pair of battle wagons) on a flank and drive around the side.
For example your goff battlewagon will be screened one way or another. Yes it has a significant threat range but when your opponent screens well it's kinda moot. You slaughter some chaff before getting blown/counter charged away.
It will be in charge range turn two. You have all of turn 1 and the shooting and psychic phase of turn 2 to gun down screens, or pull them apart with assaults (charge a buggy in each end of a screening unit, force them to pick one side to die or create a hole in the middle). Worst case, you charge those scarboys into a screen, fight them dead and then fight again to jump into the units behind.
The first half of 8th was all about screens and getting past screens, those strategies still work. There are a couple of decent articles on brownmagic on that, I can link them if you like.
They are the perfect choice for a Tellyporta drop, but then they don't come in until Turn 2.
Personally, I think tellyported transports should not have melee units inside, as those cannot charge before turn 3. As you cannot disembark afterwards. If I'd tellyport a battlewagon, it will probably contain flash gits or tank bustas. Dropping a battlewagon with 10 flash gits inside is a death sentence to any screening unit.
Fun thing I just realized while writing this, Badrukk + 2x flash gits + 1 battlewagon add up to be one freeboota spearhead Add another 9 tank bustas to that and you can drop the dakka boat, blow up some chaff units with your gits and then fire away with badrukk, your tank bustas and the guns on your battlewagon at +1 BS. Bonus points for modeling your battlwagon as a pirate ship
And the enemy doesn't need a lot of time to kill these buggies. They don't have a durable stat line.
Against most weapons used to kill vehicles, they are just as durable as a daemon prince or dreadnought, while being about 20 points cheaper.
"Dies to anti-tank" is a universal truth for all vehicles in the game. Unless your model has more than 20 wounds, you will lose it turn one if it gets focus. The one question is whether it does get focus, and whether that is bad when the other stuff in your army is not shot instead.
My Mortarion has yet to survive my opponent's first turn, but I have won every game I fielded him - because if the kill Mortarion, they are not shooting anything else. For 100-120 points T6/8W/4+ is decent
Aye they exist but does a 5++ really make these buggies that much more durable?
As long as the weapon shooting them is AP-2 or better, 5++ means that they are just as durable as vehicle from any other codex. It mostly feths up lances, lascannons and plasma, which are the most common anti-tank measures in my experience.
If they are 100ish, 120 points then these buggies are comparable to units with far superior durability and in many cases better shooting. Asscan Razorbacks dude, how much are they?
Asscan razorback is 114, but will lose 1 BS when moving and degrades. So basically comparable vehicle for comparable costs.
Is the Dark Eldar transport the Ravager (I can't remember the name right now)? Doesn't that have a 5++ in built and isn't it comparable in cost with better ranged output?
You are probably thinking of the raider, which has one dark lance (heavy) or one disintegrator cannon at 3+ and T5/10W for 85. Definitely worse at shooting and degrades as well, but it's a transport. No really comparable.
If you are actually thinking of ravagers - those are not transports and probably one of the most busted units in the game right now. I doubt it will survive CA at 115 points since its shooting output makes battletanks look like pea shooters.
What are you seeing that I'm not? I'd love to know how I'm going to keep these suckers alive/get best use out of them when I finally get them painted because I'll definitely be running them!
I think you are simply used to getting all your units blown of the table due to the low power of the ork army in the past. Assuming this codex gets points, alpha-strike capabilities and defensive stratagems right, you will lose a lot less models.
Once your opponents need to start selecting which units to kill first, rather than simply killing all important units turn one, strategies like flanking movements, distraction carnifexes and tying down shooting units while your other units advance will become viable tactics.
If they don't get that balance right... well, then the stats for buggies don't matter either way.
But I think between the stratagems we know off so far (tellyporta, fight twice, grot screen, scarboyz), the relics and traits making warbosses more killy, the clan traits and the buffs to existing units, your opponents will have their hands full to stop your Waaagh! - and even if they still blow up your buggies first, you will no longer need to rely on boyz to get any lifting done.
Bad Moons article is up and confirmed the all-but-confirmed re-roll 1s trait. No warlord traits or stratagems shown sadly. Stompa looks much shootier and fixier but still degrades really fast and has four wound brackets with rapidly degrading WS. Gorkanaut KMK changed to a much better KMZappa.
xlDuke wrote: Bad Moons article is up and confirmed the all-but-confirmed re-roll 1s trait. No warlord traits or stratagems shown sadly. Stompa looks much shootier and fixier but still degrades really fast and has four wound brackets with rapidly degrading WS. Gorkanaut KMK changed to a much better KMZappa.
I'm just worried they'll think the extra shooting is enough and leave it at nearly 1000 points :/
DrGiggles wrote: Has there been any word on whether the Start Collecting box is being redone to include an HQ/ the Painboy being moved back to the HQ slot?
They talked about the SC! box in one of the recent articles (goffs?) as if it is staying the same, which might imply painboy being moved back as they try to have a patrol in the SC! boxes.
xlDuke wrote: Bad Moons article is up and confirmed the all-but-confirmed re-roll 1s trait. No warlord traits or stratagems shown sadly. Stompa looks much shootier and fixier but still degrades really fast and has four wound brackets with rapidly degrading WS. Gorkanaut KMK changed to a much better KMZappa.
I'm just worried they'll think the extra shooting is enough and leave it at nearly 1000 points :/
If Imperial Knights showed us anything it's that GW is willing to price knight models right about where they belong. Castellans plus all their gubbinz are still an issue, but one that can be solved.
DrGiggles wrote: Has there been any word on whether the Start Collecting box is being redone to include an HQ/ the Painboy being moved back to the HQ slot?
They talked about the SC! box in one of the recent articles (goffs?) as if it is staying the same, which might imply painboy being moved back as they try to have a patrol in the SC! boxes.
Which is really strange since one of the pictures on the GW webstore has the current contents of the SC box (including the painboy) with the addition of the SAG big mek. On the actual SC store page its still the same though
Interesting detail, the KMzappa and the Kustom Shokk Rifle both "overheat" on an unmodified hit roll of 1. I do hope CA changes all plasma type weapons to work similarly.
Hmmm, that is interesting. I suspect that CA will change that most likely for plasma type weapons. Im also thinking it will increase the cost of a lot of cheap infantry as well (which is why boyz went up)
xlDuke wrote: Bad Moons article is up and confirmed the all-but-confirmed re-roll 1s trait. No warlord traits or stratagems shown sadly. Stompa looks much shootier and fixier but still degrades really fast and has four wound brackets with rapidly degrading WS. Gorkanaut KMK changed to a much better KMZappa.
I'm just worried they'll think the extra shooting is enough and leave it at nearly 1000 points :/
If Imperial Knights showed us anything it's that GW is willing to price knight models right about where they belong. Castellans plus all their gubbinz are still an issue, but one that can be solved.
willing to price imperial ones sure.. xenos have a worse track records.. Stormsurge is mediocre on a good day, and wraithknights are terrible with every loadout. I hope they get the stompa, morkanaught and gorkanaught pointed correctly but with the shown profiles I am betting GW declares it fixed and the points stay pretty close to current levels. I woudl love to be wrong and see it at a 600 point area which is what it should be as shown
willing to price imperial ones sure.. xenos have a worse track records.. Stormsurge is mediocre on a good day, and wraithknights are terrible with every loadout. I hope they get the stompa, morkanaught and gorkanaught pointed correctly but with the shown profiles I am betting GW declares it fixed and the points stay pretty close to current levels. I woudl love to be wrong and see it at a 600 point area which is what it should be as shown
At 40 wounds and no invuln 700 might be ok. Depends if there are any stratagems. I'm more keen on the 'Nauts though.
yeahm the stompa could become the next big selling model if they just gave it good rules and decreased its points. its our cheapest vehicle to purchase (for plastic for price comparison).
but GW doesnt want to sell old kits, they want to sell the new stuff, but they are unwilling to realy encourage us to pay for such kits by giving them ridiculous pts and unfair exchange rates.
willing to price imperial ones sure.. xenos have a worse track records.. Stormsurge is mediocre on a good day, and wraithknights are terrible with every loadout. I hope they get the stompa, morkanaught and gorkanaught pointed correctly but with the shown profiles I am betting GW declares it fixed and the points stay pretty close to current levels. I woudl love to be wrong and see it at a 600 point area which is what it should be as shown
At 40 wounds and no invuln 700 might be ok. Depends if there are any stratagems. I'm more keen on the 'Nauts though.
the thing keeping it from 700+ value for me is the lack of any inv save.
that stat line degrades very quickly and without a inv save most armies will have it down to its lower profiles pretty quickly.
willing to price imperial ones sure.. xenos have a worse track records.. Stormsurge is mediocre on a good day, and wraithknights are terrible with every loadout. I hope they get the stompa, morkanaught and gorkanaught pointed correctly but with the shown profiles I am betting GW declares it fixed and the points stay pretty close to current levels. I woudl love to be wrong and see it at a 600 point area which is what it should be as shown
At 40 wounds and no invuln 700 might be ok. Depends if there are any stratagems. I'm more keen on the 'Nauts though.
the thing keeping it from 700+ value for me is the lack of any inv save.
that stat line degrades very quickly and without a inv save most armies will have it down to its lower profiles pretty quickly.
If it costs less than 800, that'd be a miracle. Not a good points cost, just better than I expect.
I really hope the naughts go down a hefty chunk. I'd love to have a reason to go out and buy two or three. With Evil sunz and blood axes they would be a legit threat through either being quick or being sturdy.
I think it’s pretty safe to assume the Nauts are getting a points reduction, given that we already know the Morkanaut’s PL is going down to 15 (from 18 in the Index). A proportional points drop would take it to around 280.
Nazrak wrote: I think it’s pretty safe to assume the Nauts are getting a points reduction, given that we already know the Morkanaut’s PL is going down to 15 (from 18 in the Index). A proportional points drop would take it to around 280.
Also seeing my Morkanauts KMK going to 3d3 shots with damage fething d6 makes me happy beyond words. Its shooting might actually matter now.
Ironically, I think this is where DDD really shines, not with lots of small shots, but a few large shots. Marines don't care if I get a few extra S4 shots, but you can damn-well bet my opponent will be sweating if I roll a 6 or two for a Gork-Damned S8 AP-3 D6 weapon. And while it might not be as good as the Bad Moons tactic, but the Deffskullz tactic (of which my entire army is painted) of rerolling a single dice per squad per phase really helps out with these higher strength weapons.
Obi_wang wrote: I selfishly just want deffkoptas to get a cost reduction. Being able to run a sizeable blob would be pretty fun I think.
I've got two wings ready to go. They've been itching to see the table for a while now.
They need either a massive points reduction, or 4 shots. Or perhaps some of each.
Hope the blood axe cover rules apply to vehicles.
I think clan traits plus a points reduction will make them playable casually. May not be the best units, but would be fun to run the army Ive wanted to play.
GW doesn't realy talk about models they would put in the index as far as i know.
this could mean we will get the deffkopta has rules in the codex. now wether this means its for the old model or hopefully a repackage of the aobr model, we can get changed pt values in CA.
im a big fan of the defkopta and i made a bunch last edition (it was a very underappreciated model, but i did very well at a tournament with them). ill look forward to see what i can use it for this edition.
This gives me hope! My plan was to have an airborne type army with koptas, jets, and stormboyz. Perhaps the Rad Rockets and Warboss Leadfoot Gas Chugga will have a chance after all...
Obi_wang wrote: This gives me hope! My plan was to have an airborne type army with koptas, jets, and stormboyz. Perhaps the Rad Rockets and Warboss Leadfoot Gas Chugga will have a chance after all...
a real flyboy mob.
the nobs/meks are the dakkajets/wazboms (bonus for having one jet converted from a scraphet). the boss rides into battle on a chinork. the wealthier boyz pilot deffkoptas with their "pk nob" equivalents being the ones with buzzsaws. and then finally the rank and file boys are the stormboys.
welcome to codex flymob
where every ork flys or dies!
this could mean we will get the deffkopta has rules in the codex. now wether this means its for the old model or hopefully a repackage of the aobr model, we can get changed pt values in CA.
Well there's model on sale so odds of dissapearing was super slim to begin with.
And CA? People are so dissapointed with codex already they are hoping for post-codex point reductions? That would be funny. GW deciding to drop points before codex is even released.
The codex isn't out though. How would do we know the points haven't dropped?
And logically, if they didn't change the points cost in the codex, then they aren't going to do it in chapter approved either, as that is scheduled to be released 2 months from now.
Well there's model on sale so odds of dissapearing was super slim to begin with.
And CA? People are so dissapointed with codex already they are hoping for post-codex point reductions? That would be funny. GW deciding to drop points before codex is even released.
im just glad CA exists. it provides that opportunity that if the codex does suck then it can be fixed later.
yes, we dont have the codex right now, so there is a lot of speculation. but history has shown orks have been mishandled, its easier to expect GW to screw up on orks then it is to think they will buff us to top tear. so many of us will be pessimistic until we have the codex and have played enough to understand where our codex is in the meta.
even if there are great things in our codex there are alot of units that will most likely not be competitive. if the defkopta still sucks in the codex then we will have to look forward to CA for any hope. some popple build their collections around units that suck (i bloody play dreadmob lol).
CthuluIsSpy wrote: The codex isn't out though. How would do we know the points haven't dropped?
And logically, if they didn't change the points cost in the codex, then they aren't going to do it in chapter approved either, as that is scheduled to be released 2 months from now.
That's kind of what I was wondering. Why are people already putting hopes for CA for price drops when we don't know did they drop points in codex and any point changes in CA would be already decided by now! I would be looking at codex first and if that's dud then I would just have to accept short of spring FAQ(and more unlikely autumn faq) there's not much hope for price drop before CA2019. Using CA2018 to adjust points before codex is even out feels odd. If GW already knew points are off wouldn't the codex FAQ in 2weeks after codex be more sensible for such a quick errata...
Well there's model on sale so odds of dissapearing was super slim to begin with.
And CA? People are so dissapointed with codex already they are hoping for post-codex point reductions? That would be funny. GW deciding to drop points before codex is even released.
im just glad CA exists. it provides that opportunity that if the codex does suck then it can be fixed later.
yes, we dont have the codex right now, so there is a lot of speculation. but history has shown orks have been mishandled, its easier to expect GW to screw up on orks then it is to think they will buff us to top tear. so many of us will be pessimistic until we have the codex and have played enough to understand where our codex is in the meta.
even if there are great things in our codex there are alot of units that will most likely not be competitive. if the defkopta still sucks in the codex then we will have to look forward to CA for any hope. some popple build their collections around units that suck (i bloody play dreadmob lol).
Thing is CA2018 is too close for fixing points for ork codex. CA2018 is already done and decided. Lead times. People seems to have this weird conception books are finished like week before it comes on sale. If orks will be getting point adjustements in CA look at CA2019 and not CA2018.
CA could still have corrections since the Ork Codex was likely finished and printing before CA. So typo or error spotted after print date could be corrected in the CA.
That said I do agree there shouldn't be a wholesale larger changes and likely nothing in balance or from player feedback.
Overread wrote: CA could still have corrections since the Ork Codex was likely finished and printing before CA. So typo or error spotted after print date could be corrected in the CA.
That said I do agree there shouldn't be a wholesale larger changes and likely nothing in balance or from player feedback.
Not happening, Nids were released early November last year and dind't receive any point change in the CA
CthuluIsSpy wrote: The codex isn't out though. How would do we know the points haven't dropped? And logically, if they didn't change the points cost in the codex, then they aren't going to do it in chapter approved either, as that is scheduled to be released 2 months from now.
well first off some people had the codex (or some version of it) and thanks to the WWW some leaks are gonna happen
there was a vid from a french youtuber, he posted a game of new orks... codex army was 1750 points if you crunch the number you get the same index army for about 1730ish points. one entry, a bike mob, was not mentioned properly. could have been normal bikers or nobbikers so maybe the index army would be around 1800 points. either way... seems like there wont be a massive points drop across the board
Obi_wang wrote: This gives me hope! My plan was to have an airborne type army with koptas, jets, and stormboyz. Perhaps the Rad Rockets and Warboss Leadfoot Gas Chugga will have a chance after all...
Yea. I am thinking now of getting two trike bosses, one for each kopta wing, and multi-charging the crap out of the opponent on turn 1.
I think the koptas will survive in combat against most shooty units, and not too many have fall back and shoot (IG can, but will not get frfsrf.)
If I can fit them on the table around the bosses, I would also charge with trukks full of things. The opponent is going to be severely hampered (in my mind) and won't be able to do much against the trukks (and boy spillage). Then everything walks in on turn 2.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: The codex isn't out though. How would do we know the points haven't dropped?
And logically, if they didn't change the points cost in the codex, then they aren't going to do it in chapter approved either, as that is scheduled to be released 2 months from now.
well first off some people had the codex (or some version of it) and thanks to the WWW some leaks are gonna happen
there was a vid from a french youtuber, he posted a game of new orks... codex army was 1750 points
if you crunch the number you get the same index army for about 1730ish points. one entry, a bike mob, was not mentioned properly. could have been normal bikers or nobbikers so maybe the index army would be around 1800 points.
either way... seems like there wont be a massive points drop across the board
What units were in the list? If they are going heavy on boyz that might just mean their point increase is leveling out with some of the drops across other units.
Obi_wang wrote: This gives me hope! My plan was to have an airborne type army with koptas, jets, and stormboyz. Perhaps the Rad Rockets and Warboss Leadfoot Gas Chugga will have a chance after all...
Yea. I am thinking now of getting two trike bosses, one for each kopta wing, and multi-charging the crap out of the opponent on turn 1.
Good luck. Even with advance+charge 14" isn't enough to reliably T1 charge if enemy doesn't want to and even then only against chaff. With evil sunz it becomes bit more doable but again gunlines are often 30" or so away from enemy DZ line so...
I think the koptas will survive in combat against most shooty units, and not too many have fall back and shoot (IG can, but will not get frfsrf.)
Then again chaff losing shooting isn't big deal as they are chaff. Not shooty unit of death.
Evil Sunz stormboyz and DA JUMPED mobs have a pretty decent chance of T1. 13+1d6+1 = 15 inches minimum with an average of 17.5 then make a charge on 2d6 (re-rolling both or just one if the rumors are true) and adding +1 to the result is not a terribly unlikely thing to happen and in fact reliable if they deploy towards the line. Of course if they deploy back then you at least secure board control as they will be pinned in and you for sure are in T2.
The other option of course are blood axe stormboyz who will survive shooting a bit better but likely give up the T1, but still be auto in on turn 2.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Evil Sunz stormboyz and DA JUMPED mobs have a pretty decent chance of T1. 13+1d6+1 = 15 inches minimum with an average of 17.5 then make a charge on 2d6 (re-rolling both or just one if the rumors are true) and adding +1 to the result is not a terribly unlikely thing to happen and in fact reliable if they deploy towards the line. Of course if they deploy back then you at least secure board control as they will be pinned in and you for sure are in T2.
The other option of course are blood axe stormboyz who will survive shooting a bit better but likely give up the T1, but still be auto in on turn 2.
17+2d6=24". Add in 1" average for decent odds(9" even with reroll is 50-50. NOT reliable) and you are still at 25". That is not enough UNLESS opponent wants you to. It was fashionable in '90's to deploy exactly on deployment zone line. These days though gunlines have realized it's better to deploy further back.
And if opponent deploys so that he allows you to do T1 charge...Well generally that means he WANTS you to do and in that case...Are you really sure you want to do what opponent is wanting you to do? Either he's providing you with targets that are irrelevant to lose(chaff) drawing your units out of support easily killed or they are units that will rip your chargers apart.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: Evil Sunz stormboyz and DA JUMPED mobs have a pretty decent chance of T1. 13+1d6+1 = 15 inches minimum with an average of 17.5 then make a charge on 2d6 (re-rolling both or just one if the rumors are true) and adding +1 to the result is not a terribly unlikely thing to happen and in fact reliable if they deploy towards the line. Of course if they deploy back then you at least secure board control as they will be pinned in and you for sure are in T2.
The other option of course are blood axe stormboyz who will survive shooting a bit better but likely give up the T1, but still be auto in on turn 2.
17+2d6=24". Add in 1" average for decent odds(9" even with reroll is 50-50. NOT reliable) and you are still at 25". That is not enough UNLESS opponent wants you to. It was fashionable in '90's to deploy exactly on deployment zone line. These days though gunlines have realized it's better to deploy further back.
And if opponent deploys so that he allows you to do T1 charge...Well generally that means he WANTS you to do and in that case...Are you really sure you want to do what opponent is wanting you to do? Either he's providing you with targets that are irrelevant to lose(chaff) drawing your units out of support easily killed or they are units that will rip your chargers apart.
You bring up some very good points that I largely agree with. To be fair to charge/advance distance though you are just as likely to get 18 as 17 and don't forget the +1 to the charge roll with the possibility of re-rolling one or both dice (though the rumors on this are very vague and probably false). I do however see your point about even if you can charge is it a good charge target. The extra mobility is still incredibly solid though and can really help in getting into position in the movement phase now that you can't charge over screens. Either way blood axes or evil sunz are almost always auto in t2 so perhaps that is another solid feather in the cap of the blood axes.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: The codex isn't out though. How would do we know the points haven't dropped? And logically, if they didn't change the points cost in the codex, then they aren't going to do it in chapter approved either, as that is scheduled to be released 2 months from now.
well first off some people had the codex (or some version of it) and thanks to the WWW some leaks are gonna happen
there was a vid from a french youtuber, he posted a game of new orks... codex army was 1750 points if you crunch the number you get the same index army for about 1730ish points. one entry, a bike mob, was not mentioned properly. could have been normal bikers or nobbikers so maybe the index army would be around 1800 points. either way... seems like there wont be a massive points drop across the board
What units were in the list? If they are going heavy on boyz that might just mean their point increase is leveling out with some of the drops across other units.
RedNoak wrote: there were also some bikers on the field... i guess he was playing 4 warbikes and the new trike
my estimates (including conservative wargear) is about 1727 points (index)
Big Mek in Mega Armour, Kustom Force field + Kustom mega-blasta, Power Klaw Wyrdboy Warboss on Warbike, Attack squig + Power klaw
28 Boyz, 24 x Choppa & Slugga, 1 x Shoota, 2 x Big shoota + Boss Nob, Shoota, Power klaw 30 Boyz, 28 x Choppa & Slugga, 1 x Shoota + Boss Nob, Shoota, Power klaw 20 Gretchin 10 Gretchin
Nob with Waaagh! Banner Painboy, Grot orderly + Power Klaw
And yet there are plenty of armies without screens that also don't deploy further back like elves. If you're afraid of gunlines with bauble wraps. Well, deep strike in, kill chaff, 3 cp to fight again. Consolidate and get in mellee with the whole gunline. Anywayz, there are plenty of new opportunities. Ork betta strike is real.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Evil sunz are gona be the best pick for all those deepstrikers we're gona get. Besides, with regenerating mobz that will also have 2/3 chance (or better) to make successful charges i'm starting to think of actually adding a kff mek to the list to actually get a chance to regen a mob. 5++, 6+++ and ye got a bunch of damn 'ard to remove boyz. Think ye ain't making t1 charges and it's a bad strategy? Don't spend pts on stormboyz, get more boyz.
since we've never had Klan tactics I dont know how they work. Can I have Multiple tactics if I take multiple detachments? So for instance, my main detachment is Speed Freakz so they use evil sunz. But could I also take my Kommandos in a Blood Axe battalion or detachment and have them benefit from the Blood Axe Klan trait?
SemperMortis wrote: since we've never had Klan tactics I dont know how they work. Can I have Multiple tactics if I take multiple detachments? So for instance, my main detachment is Speed Freakz so they use evil sunz. But could I also take my Kommandos in a Blood Axe battalion or detachment and have them benefit from the Blood Axe Klan trait?
Yeah. It's determined by detachment, so you could have three different Kultures if you have three detachments. So you could do Blood Axe kommandos and Bad Moons artillery alongside your Evil Sunz.
They just need to be a legal detachment on their own (so you'll need at least an hq, though two and a couple grot units for bonus cp never hurts).
SemperMortis wrote: since we've never had Klan tactics I dont know how they work. Can I have Multiple tactics if I take multiple detachments? So for instance, my main detachment is Speed Freakz so they use evil sunz. But could I also take my Kommandos in a Blood Axe battalion or detachment and have them benefit from the Blood Axe Klan trait?
Yeah. It's determined by detachment, so you could have three different Kultures if you have three detachments. So you could do Blood Axe kommandos and Bad Moons artillery alongside your Evil Sunz.
They just need to be a legal detachment on their own (so you'll need at least an hq, though two and a couple grot units for bonus cp never hurts).
How common is that in 40k? It seems like it will be a no-brainer for orks...does drukari do that much?
SemperMortis wrote: since we've never had Klan tactics I dont know how they work. Can I have Multiple tactics if I take multiple detachments? So for instance, my main detachment is Speed Freakz so they use evil sunz. But could I also take my Kommandos in a Blood Axe battalion or detachment and have them benefit from the Blood Axe Klan trait?
Yeah. It's determined by detachment, so you could have three different Kultures if you have three detachments. So you could do Blood Axe kommandos and Bad Moons artillery alongside your Evil Sunz.
They just need to be a legal detachment on their own (so you'll need at least an hq, though two and a couple grot units for bonus cp never hurts).
How common is that in 40k? It seems like it will be a no-brainer for orks...does drukari do that much?
Soup's basically just a more extreme version of this, so it's pretty common. Dark Eldar, since you mentioned them, are designed to do this, which is why they have that bonus to patrol cp. I'll often run a couple of different hive fleets in a Tyranid army (Kraken battalion for the 'stealer shock with a shooty/physic defense Chronos battalion, for example). Guard might run their tanks as one regiment and their foot-sloggers as another (assuming they don't ally in something, too).
Not everyone wants to break up their buffs or pay for more characters in mono-book armies, though, so not every book does it as well. And some people are against it on principle, too, of course.
SemperMortis wrote: since we've never had Klan tactics I dont know how they work. Can I have Multiple tactics if I take multiple detachments? So for instance, my main detachment is Speed Freakz so they use evil sunz. But could I also take my Kommandos in a Blood Axe battalion or detachment and have them benefit from the Blood Axe Klan trait?
Yeah. It's determined by detachment, so you could have three different Kultures if you have three detachments. So you could do Blood Axe kommandos and Bad Moons artillery alongside your Evil Sunz.
They just need to be a legal detachment on their own (so you'll need at least an hq, though two and a couple grot units for bonus cp never hurts).
How common is that in 40k? It seems like it will be a no-brainer for orks...does drukari do that much?
Soup's basically just a more extreme version of this, so it's pretty common. Dark Eldar, since you mentioned them, are designed to do this, which is why they have that bonus to patrol cp. I'll often run a couple of different hive fleets in a Tyranid army (Kraken battalion for the 'stealer shock with a shooty/physic defense Chronos battalion, for example). Guard might run their tanks as one regiment and their foot-sloggers as another (assuming they don't ally in something, too).
Not everyone wants to break up their buffs or pay for more characters in mono-book armies, though, so not every book does it as well. And some people are against it on principle, too, of course.
With cheap HQs and the cheapest troops in the game, I can easily see a 3-brigade mixed ork list. Suns for vehicles and transports, Blood Axe assaulters, Bad Moons for shooting. Not sure whether walkers would be suns or axes...maybe even moons if they had enough shots.
Hmmm, I’ve got Skullz and Freebootaz, hopefully there’s some synergy there. Not about to repaint ‘em or try to claim that all those ladz in blue and white are actually Sunz or something.
koooaei wrote: And yet there are plenty of armies without screens that also don't deploy further back like elves. If you're afraid of gunlines with bauble wraps. Well, deep strike in, kill chaff, 3 cp to fight again. Consolidate and get in mellee with the whole gunline. Anywayz, there are plenty of new opportunities. Ork betta strike is real.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Evil sunz are gona be the best pick for all those deepstrikers we're gona get. Besides, with regenerating mobz that will also have 2/3 chance (or better) to make successful charges i'm starting to think of actually adding a kff mek to the list to actually get a chance to regen a mob. 5++, 6+++ and ye got a bunch of damn 'ard to remove boyz. Think ye ain't making t1 charges and it's a bad strategy? Don't spend pts on stormboyz, get more boyz.
Oh sure once in a while you play against idiot. I hate to count doing that though
Just don't count on a t1 charge and that's it. Pretty darn reliable turn 2 charges now. Even regular boyz - especially evil sun ones - can make reluable t2 charges. And besides, half deployments are closer than 24" apart now.
im imagining a fun dreddmob list based on theory and what we know.
in evil swunz detachment
so ill have a fulle sqaud of manz, then a weirdboy to da jump them turn 2.
then have 3 deffdredds to put in telyport to port in on turn 2 (if 3 cant fit under 20pl after index then ill just throw in a gorkanaut)
while the enemy is bothering with a t2 megacharge there is a squad of 6 killakanz, a mork/gorkanaut, escorted by a defftrike (index bikemek with kff to cover these)
maybe have a megacharga mekadredd thrown in there.
add a bat detachment with grots for cp battery (maybe a bigmeksag deathskull for sniping)
admittedly 1st turn the main mob of kilakanz and the trike will have to endure enemy dakka, but by the time they are close to the enemy on turn 2 then the deepstrike comes in for some serious turn 2 charges
this is all theory, but a list i want to try to figure out on how to do when i get the codex. hopefully this might all fit in a 2000pt list
With cheap HQs and the cheapest troops in the game, I can easily see a 3-brigade mixed ork list. Suns for vehicles and transports, Blood Axe assaulters, Bad Moons for shooting. Not sure whether walkers would be suns or axes...maybe even moons if they had enough shots.
Ork Soup should be a thing.
It sure will be a thing. However, i think the clans are different here.
Deepstrikers: evil sunz are best here. +1 to charge is better than any other clan trait. However, if vehicles do get the rumored 3d6 charge, a deepstriking naught could be either blood axe, snakebite or maybe goffs for extra choppiness and nobz/meganobz inside.
Footslogging hordes: evil sunz for larger games again. You'll likely be running a couple kff meks and a painboy there, thus you do need extra speed. 4 extra inches of movement across 2 turns is a big deal. Also, extra charge range is great for outflanking regenerated mobz.
Optionally, it could be blood axes or deffskullz for 5+ armor or 6++ if you ain't bringing kff. Or goffs for Ghaz and knighthunting boyz. Snakebites...not sure. Probably not the best horde clan.
Speed freak and vehicle heavy lists are better off as snakebites or blood axes. They don't need extra speed but lack durability. The only exception is a squad of bikes for -1 to hit. However, bikes are srill meh.
Fire support: depending on which units you take it's either deffskullz or bad moonz. I think deffskullz are better for kmk. Arguably. They are undoubtedly better for trukkbustas though.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Aaaah why are all the Ork clans so cool!! I've always been Loota heavy, with mixed foot slogging, and trukks.
Im not sure which direction to go! Might have to go neutral and do a desert theme.
Yeah, it's definitely not as cut-and-dry as some of the other army traits, and I do want to keep my army thematic when it comes to how they're painted. I'm glad I chose Deffskullz as my main faction, but they don't synergize very well with the dred mob I have.
Was hoping bikes would go down more, but a lot of the klan traits make them a lot more palatable as a unit, particularly blood axes and evil sunz.
Cool that the BW has more variants so that we can run a blitz brigade without having to worry about the rule of 3 coming in. Hopefully the Killkannon gets a bit of a buff so the 4+ BS variant is worth taking.
I am not an ork player but reading these “Kulturs” Ork players should be happy their codex came out next to last. I mean other than -1 to hit (which will probably get a nerf sooner or later) these are universally better than anything in SM or CSM codex. I mean world bearers have re-roll morale and that is it. It will be nice to see Orks having greater representation on the table with these rules hopefully diversify the tables more.
No, I don't think so - otherwise it would be models.
hmm...I'm waiting for more confirmation on that one...but if KFF's can be "daisychained" now, that's pretty big isn't it?
Surely they wouldn't allow that? that would be too good...but damn would it be awesome
KFF is only super amazing on boyz. If they are going to 7ppm and evertying else is dropping slightly I dont think that having it act like every other buff in the game to be that game breaking. Dealing with kff is kinda a pain atm to get all models withing a bubble, increasing points of kff and making it less of a headache to use seems reasonable. Also if we are gonna lose the mek on a bike then that further drops its viability to a degree.
Jidmah wrote: Also note that the new KFF is more expensive, since you can only get it from MA meks, morkanauts or wazzbom blastajets.
KFF is not a piece of wargear, but a special rule on the datasheet, so no matter what the units in the codex get, the index only meks won't update.
Dont they sell a model of a standard mek with a KFF?
Unfortunately not to my knowledge. Not including it in the codex seems like a shame though seeing as you can easily kitbash one from several (lootas for example) existing Ork sets.
Edit: What really grinds my gears, regardless of how good our codex seems to be, is our inability to buy proper HQ in a shop. I get it GW, you like money, but if I need to mail order for even the simplest additions to my army I'm going to look for alternatives.
Naw the used to. He used to be metal along timeago and was ported to finecast. But I cant find him on the site so I guess hes discontinued. Wow that sucks
yeah I think he disappeared around the time when they released the plastic shokk attack gun big mek...shame they didn't think to include an alternate KFF build for him...
That's a shame. Since morkonaught is not for hordes and plane is too easy to kill and definitely not worth the points. Megamek with kff...i'm not sure about. Too expensive to be an auto-include. How much would a kff mek cost. If 115+ i'd probably try him once, see thqt he doesn't make much difference and give him a pass.
I have three of those, and one of them is the best painted ork model I own.
If their rules are not updated (might be through FAQ/errata), I'd just keep using them with the MA rules and claim that they have a gubbin which provides them with 2+ armor.
koooaei wrote: Just don't count on a t1 charge and that's it. Pretty darn reliable turn 2 charges now. Even regular boyz - especially evil sun ones - can make reluable t2 charges. And besides, half deployments are closer than 24" apart now.
Evil sun yes. 6+6+2d6+2+2d6+2=16+4d6=30" charge. 1" or so due to reroll and 1" to get into combat and 32" threat range. That is much better and should give charge against most non-dark eldar armies(those buggers will wipe out big enough hole somewhere and go there so distance isn't as fixed)
Regular boyz: 5+5+2d6+2d6=10+4d6=24". 1" more for ability to reroll charge and you are looking at 26" threat range for 58% success rate. That is distance that requires opponent giving you T2 charge. It's possible yes but if you are facing gunline they are more like 28" away. Fast elements are likely heading where he plans to blow up big hole anyway so distance isn't so good and will mean you would be heading away from the main bulk of force so that's often bad idea. Not only you lost units near the fast elements but your units further away from those will then head elsewhere.
Evil sun is king for foot slogging. Or deep striking. Basically for any kind of boyz. Other clans will basically require transport to haul them somewhere so they don't have to wait for T3 charge. If you desperately want to use those 7 pts boyz evil sunz is the default option. So Dethskull KMK's and deep striking boyz as a core, plenty of grots to provide tough wounds. Closest equilavent of old green tide.
koooaei wrote: That's a shame. Since morkonaught is not for hordes and plane is too easy to kill and definitely not worth the points. Megamek with kff...i'm not sure about. Too expensive to be an auto-include. How much would a kff mek cost. If 115+ i'd probably try him once, see thqt he doesn't make much difference and give him a pass.
The key, I would have thought, is whether a Meg Mek with KFF works on a Truk etc, ie when he's embarked on a vehicle. Otherwise we effectively have no KFF on a mechanised list, so unless you buy a Morkanaught the improvement is pretty irrelevant.
After all that trouble i took modeling a KFF on Buzzgob's stompa, too. Grrr.
koooaei wrote: That's a shame. Since morkonaught is not for hordes and plane is too easy to kill and definitely not worth the points. Megamek with kff...i'm not sure about. Too expensive to be an auto-include. How much would a kff mek cost. If 115+ i'd probably try him once, see thqt he doesn't make much difference and give him a pass.
The key, I would have thought, is whether a Meg Mek with KFF works on a Truk etc, ie when he's embarked on a vehicle. Otherwise we effectively have no KFF on a mechanised list, so unless you buy a Morkanaught the improvement is pretty irrelevant.
After all that trouble i took modeling a KFF on Buzzgob's stompa, too. Grrr.
I've thought the same. I hope that because the battlewagon is split up in 3 different datasheets that one of them can take a KFF and spread that bubble love
According this only change to KFF is that only big mek that can have it is the MA version. Bike and foot version gone. Poof. No more(though index still says HAHA for that). Still fully within 9".
geargutz wrote: you can tell which buggy follows wich clan (though i dont think they will be set up with clan keywords, it looks like a style choice)
snazzwagon (deathskulls, molotovs are perfect for killing the crew of a vehicle without damaging da loot)
boosta blasta (evilsunz, the ignited exhaust is best for going fasta)
wartrike (goth, of course the goths have da biggest and choppiest on their trike)
shockjump dragsta (badmoons, with all the high tech equipment that only a posh badmoon can afford)
scrapjet (bloodaxe, with bomber jacket and and foregoing a flashy paint job makes this git seem like he used to be a stormboy before he became a flyboy before he became the new buggy boy)
squigbuggy (snakebites)
not only does the new buggy have a brown paint job that matches snakebites but it also has the largest variety of squigs (one of the best pets/export of any snakbite clan).
now i would've preferred a less advanced vehicle for snakebites, but its not like our favorite feral orks shun technology completely. they are known for making steam powered stompas.
The steam gargant was a thing for feral orks, was it not? Not Snakebites.
So what are people thinking about how tellyport interacts with transports.
From the wording, I'd assume it does not count the dudes in the transport because embarking on a transport does not increase its power level and it is specifically the transport that is being tellyported, the guys inside just get to stay inside.
TheWawior wrote: So what are people thinking about how tellyport interacts with transports.
From the wording, I'd assume it does not count the dudes in the transport because embarking on a transport does not increase its power level and it is specifically the transport that is being tellyported, the guys inside just get to stay inside.
RAW transported units would not count towards the allowance.
TheWawior wrote: So what are people thinking about how tellyport interacts with transports.
From the wording, I'd assume it does not count the dudes in the transport because embarking on a transport does not increase its power level and it is specifically the transport that is being tellyported, the guys inside just get to stay inside.
RAW transported units would not count towards the allowance.
That's what I thought, gives that tellyported Gnaught a little somethin extra.
Wonder why strategem doesn't mention anything about transport vehicles. Eldar strategem says...One would imagine GW would have made wording similar then rather than make ork one not have a word about it for...reasons? Seems like unneccessarily making things debatable.
tneva82 wrote: Wonder why strategem doesn't mention anything about transport vehicles. Eldar strategem says...One would imagine GW would have made wording similar then rather than make ork one not have a word about it for...reasons? Seems like unneccessarily making things debatable.
But it explicitly states that transported units come along for the deep strike.
Just watched a video on someone who has the new codex....wow, i am a bit depressed. The way he worded my Blood Axe trait is that we get cover unless we are 18' or less away from the enemy...you know....when we would need that bonus the absolute most. This really hurts my Kommandos because they will pretty much never be 18' away from the enemy and you have to be at least partially in cover...... I was really hoping it was just blanket always in cover across the board but meh. I guess i'll be playing my Speed Freakz list a lot more then I thought :(
SemperMortis wrote: Just watched a video on someone who has the new codex....wow, i am a bit depressed. The way he worded my Blood Axe trait is that we get cover unless we are 18' or less away from the enemy...you know....when we would need that bonus the absolute most. This really hurts my Kommandos because they will pretty much never be 18' away from the enemy and you have to be at least partially in cover...... I was really hoping it was just blanket always in cover across the board but meh. I guess i'll be playing my Speed Freakz list a lot more then I thought :(
It needed a restriction, because 3+ boyz would have been rough. 18" might be too much though. It certainly changes the dynamic of how I would use it.
It doesn't seem like you need to be in terrain, but I see where you get that.
tneva82 wrote: Wonder why strategem doesn't mention anything about transport vehicles. Eldar strategem says...One would imagine GW would have made wording similar then rather than make ork one not have a word about it for...reasons? Seems like unneccessarily making things debatable.
But it explicitly states that transported units come along for the deep strike.
Oh whoops my bad. Misremembered wording. No issues then rule wise. Not convinced any transport is worth deepstriking like that. Too easy to be surrounded, destroyed and lose whole squad. Gorkanaut seems safer bet with 8" charge
here's the actual trait, so you can see the actual wording...and yeah, it's worded weirdly, but it basically says you get cover, even if you're not actually in cover, as long as you're 18"+ away from enemies (which kinda sucks)
tneva82 wrote: Not convinced any transport is worth deepstriking like that. Too easy to be surrounded, destroyed and lose whole squad. Gorkanaut seems safer bet with 8" charge
Melee battlwagon apparently has 6+D6 defrolla ttacks hitting on 2+ at S9 Ap-2 D2 and you can strategem it for a 3d6" charge and D3MW impact hits. Could be worth it, even empty?
That could be good but gorkanaut strikes even harder. If it's empty get better hitter. If not it's big gamble.
Btw not sure but wouldn#t the unit inside still count for 50% max for deep striking? Though not sure exceeding that would be smart anyway. T1 wipeout could be possibility! Not in good way...
SemperMortis wrote: Just watched a video on someone who has the new codex....wow, i am a bit depressed. The way he worded my Blood Axe trait is that we get cover unless we are 18' or less away from the enemy...you know....when we would need that bonus the absolute most. This really hurts my Kommandos because they will pretty much never be 18' away from the enemy and you have to be at least partially in cover...... I was really hoping it was just blanket always in cover across the board but meh. I guess i'll be playing my Speed Freakz list a lot more then I thought :(
It needed a restriction, because 3+ boyz would have been rough. 18" might be too much though. It certainly changes the dynamic of how I would use it.
It doesn't seem like you need to be in terrain, but I see where you get that.
You couldn't get 3+ unless you bought "ard Boyz" with CP which is stupidly over priced and then used the loot strategy to get +1 armor for a destroyed vehicle and then the +1 for cover but only if they are 18' from enemy units.....The biggest benefit would have been to Kommandos who are 9ppm (maybe less now) who would have been 4+. But because of the wording its useless
You couldn't get 3+ unless you bought "ard Boyz" with CP which is stupidly over priced and then used the loot strategy to get +1 armor for a destroyed vehicle and then the +1 for cover but only if they are 18' from enemy units.....The biggest benefit would have been to Kommandos who are 9ppm (maybe less now) who would have been 4+. But because of the wording its useless
Orks have reasonable access to CP though.
Lootas are on a 4+ stock, so 3+ with Blood Axes and 2+ with Ard Boyz. They want to be out of 18" anyway. Stick KMKs near them and when they blow stack to them 1+ (essentially). Drag two full units, mob them up, and then use More Dakka. Madness.
Has anyone seen cost on Lootas or if the gun is the same?
tneva82 wrote: Not convinced any transport is worth deepstriking like that. Too easy to be surrounded, destroyed and lose whole squad. Gorkanaut seems safer bet with 8" charge
Melee battlwagon apparently has 6+D6 defrolla ttacks hitting on 2+ at S9 Ap-2 D2 and you can strategem it for a 3d6" charge and D3MW impact hits. Could be worth it, even empty?
Deff rolla got +1 strength and damage, so any wagon with a deff rolla now does 6 S9 AP-2 D2 attacks hitting on 2+. We finally got our anti-tank ramming back!
Current battlewagon datasheet still exists with the same options. Base cost 100
Bonekrusha always comes with a 'ard case, can only take "small guns" (not sure if that means only shootas or just no killkannon), transport size is down to 12 and gets +1d6 attacks and additional mortal woundswhen it has charged. Deff rolla is mandatory, which makes it at least 120+19
Dakkafortress also has a transport capacity of 12, but gets BS4+ and shoots its main gun twice (killkannon?). It also seems to come with a bunch of weapons mandatory, but neither stream I was watching was too clear about that. Forgot how many points those were.
There also is a boarding plank stratagem which allows all passengers to make one melee attack from inside trukks or battlewagons.
In general, I'd say the battlewagon is back in the game.
Silly combo land:
Evil suns Bonekrusha with a unit of big choppa nobz (10x19 points now) and a kff mek wearing the red armor inside. Tellyport in, use ramming stratagem, charge re-rollable 3d6+1, cause mortal wounds for bone krusha, cause mortal wounds for ramming, cause mortal wounds for red armor, do 6+1d6 S9 AP-2 D2 attacks, do another S7 AP-1 D2 attacks.
On average, this causes your opponent to want to see your codex.
You couldn't get 3+ unless you bought "ard Boyz" with CP which is stupidly over priced and then used the loot strategy to get +1 armor for a destroyed vehicle and then the +1 for cover but only if they are 18' from enemy units.....The biggest benefit would have been to Kommandos who are 9ppm (maybe less now) who would have been 4+. But because of the wording its useless
Orks have reasonable access to CP though.
Lootas are on a 4+ stock, so 3+ with Blood Axes and 2+ with Ard Boyz. They want to be out of 18" anyway. Stick KMKs near them and when they blow stack to them 1+ (essentially). Drag two full units, mob them up, and then use More Dakka. Madness.
Has anyone seen cost on Lootas or if the gun is the same?
You couldn't get 3+ unless you bought "ard Boyz" with CP which is stupidly over priced and then used the loot strategy to get +1 armor for a destroyed vehicle and then the +1 for cover but only if they are 18' from enemy units.....The biggest benefit would have been to Kommandos who are 9ppm (maybe less now) who would have been 4+. But because of the wording its useless
Orks have reasonable access to CP though.
Lootas are on a 4+ stock, so 3+ with Blood Axes and 2+ with Ard Boyz. They want to be out of 18" anyway. Stick KMKs near them and when they blow stack to them 1+ (essentially). Drag two full units, mob them up, and then use More Dakka. Madness.
Has anyone seen cost on Lootas or if the gun is the same?
4+ base was leaked for Lootas? NICE! They can't take "Ard Boy" though, I thought that was only boy units. But yeah I'll probably still plunk them in cover and get my 3+ regardless. I'd rather take them in a Bad Moonz detachment to get more rerolls and then plop the exploding 5s and double dakka strats off on them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: unrelated, but someone mentioned in passing that Lootas were 2 wounds now..... Quork will be happy.
You couldn't get 3+ unless you bought "ard Boyz" with CP which is stupidly over priced and then used the loot strategy to get +1 armor for a destroyed vehicle and then the +1 for cover but only if they are 18' from enemy units.....The biggest benefit would have been to Kommandos who are 9ppm (maybe less now) who would have been 4+. But because of the wording its useless
Orks have reasonable access to CP though.
Lootas are on a 4+ stock, so 3+ with Blood Axes and 2+ with Ard Boyz. They want to be out of 18" anyway. Stick KMKs near them and when they blow stack to them 1+ (essentially). Drag two full units, mob them up, and then use More Dakka. Madness.
Has anyone seen cost on Lootas or if the gun is the same?
4+ base was leaked for Lootas? NICE! They can't take "Ard Boy" though, I thought that was only boy units. But yeah I'll probably still plunk them in cover and get my 3+ regardless. I'd rather take them in a Bad Moonz detachment to get more rerolls and then plop the exploding 5s and double dakka strats off on them.
I don't think it's been a leak. I think it's just a mistake. Lootas are 6+ and I've yet to hear anything to the contrary. That being said, I think it'd be fantastic if they were, but I can't see that happening without a point increase.
Automatically Appended Next Post: unrelated, but someone mentioned in passing that Lootas were 2 wounds now..... Quork will be happy.
Jidmah wrote: Silly combo land:
Evil suns Bonekrusha with a unit of big choppa nobz (10x19 points now) and a kff mek wearing the red armor inside. Tellyport in, use ramming stratagem, charge re-rollable 3d6+1, cause mortal wounds for bone krusha, cause mortal wounds for ramming, cause mortal wounds for red armor, do 6+1d6 S9 AP-2 D2 attacks, do another S7 AP-1 D2 attacks.
On average, this causes your opponent to want to see your codex.
So 190+140 or so? Hopefully you have something to clear chaff first as otherwise that is spent on chaff and then you are hoping like hell he doesn't manage to surround and take down 330 pts in one go and battlewagon is pretty soft target to boot.
Gorkanaut meanwhile will cause ramming MW's(can it get the red armour btw?) and hit 18 S8 -2 D2 attacks(or 6 S16 -4 Dd6 if you face tough target) for about same price. Oh and bit of chaff clearing shooting.
You couldn't get 3+ unless you bought "ard Boyz" with CP which is stupidly over priced and then used the loot strategy to get +1 armor for a destroyed vehicle and then the +1 for cover but only if they are 18' from enemy units.....The biggest benefit would have been to Kommandos who are 9ppm (maybe less now) who would have been 4+. But because of the wording its useless
Orks have reasonable access to CP though.
Lootas are on a 4+ stock, so 3+ with Blood Axes and 2+ with Ard Boyz. They want to be out of 18" anyway. Stick KMKs near them and when they blow stack to them 1+ (essentially). Drag two full units, mob them up, and then use More Dakka. Madness.
Has anyone seen cost on Lootas or if the gun is the same?
According to GMG, lootas remain unchanged, statline and points.
There also is a boarding plank stratagem which allows all passengers to make one melee attack from inside trukks or battlewagons.
That is friggin awesome.
Silly combo land:
Evil suns Bonekrusha with a unit of big choppa nobz (10x19 points now) and a kff mek wearing the red armor inside. Tellyport in, use ramming stratagem, charge re-rollable 3d6+1, cause mortal wounds for bone krusha, cause mortal wounds for ramming, cause mortal wounds for red armor, do 6+1d6 S9 AP-2 D2 attacks, do another S7 AP-1 D2 attacks.
On average, this causes your opponent to want to see your codex.
It's more and more clear there's no passionate ork player in the rule teams. Only interest has gone for the new buggies and even those rules aren't spectacular.
Jidmah wrote: Silly combo land:
Evil suns Bonekrusha with a unit of big choppa nobz (10x19 points now) and a kff mek wearing the red armor inside. Tellyport in, use ramming stratagem, charge re-rollable 3d6+1, cause mortal wounds for bone krusha, cause mortal wounds for ramming, cause mortal wounds for red armor, do 6+1d6 S9 AP-2 D2 attacks, do another S7 AP-1 D2 attacks.
On average, this causes your opponent to want to see your codex.
So 190+140 or so? Hopefully you have something to clear chaff first as otherwise that is spent on chaff and then you are hoping like hell he doesn't manage to surround and take down 330 pts in one go and battlewagon is pretty soft target to boot.
Gorkanaut meanwhile will cause ramming MW's(can it get the red armour btw?) and hit 18 S8 -2 D2 attacks(or 6 S16 -4 Dd6 if you face tough target) for about same price. Oh and bit of chaff clearing shooting.
Somethat that can surround a BW isn't going to find it soft, usually.
Jidmah wrote: Silly combo land:
Evil suns Bonekrusha with a unit of big choppa nobz (10x19 points now) and a kff mek wearing the red armor inside. Tellyport in, use ramming stratagem, charge re-rollable 3d6+1, cause mortal wounds for bone krusha, cause mortal wounds for ramming, cause mortal wounds for red armor, do 6+1d6 S9 AP-2 D2 attacks, do another S7 AP-1 D2 attacks.
On average, this causes your opponent to want to see your codex.
So 190+140 or so? Hopefully you have something to clear chaff first as otherwise that is spent on chaff and then you are hoping like hell he doesn't manage to surround and take down 330 pts in one go and battlewagon is pretty soft target to boot.
Gorkanaut meanwhile will cause ramming MW's(can it get the red armour btw?) and hit 18 S8 -2 D2 attacks(or 6 S16 -4 Dd6 if you face tough target) for about same price. Oh and bit of chaff clearing shooting.
What kind of unit is supposed to survive that charge and then surround a battlewagon so you can't disembark 10 models?
How is the gorkanaut a harder target compared to a battlewagon? Because of +1 armor does jack against anti-tank weapons?
How are 18 S8 attacks hitting on 3s (8 damage against T8/3+) better than 9.5 S9 attacks hitting on 2s and d3 mortal wounds (9 damage against T8/3+)? Oh, and that's before you even add in the nobz. So 139 points bonekrusha > gorkanaut on the charge, for half the points. Put flash gits inside instead of nobz and you'll have superior chaff clearing on top of that.
You are really going out of the way to be negative in every single post. I'll put you back on ignore, your post aren't worth reading anymore.
No one needs blind negativity just for negativity's sake.
What kind of unit is supposed to survive that charge and then surround a battlewagon so you can't disembark 10 models?
Opponent has only 1 unit in his army? Well guess if you are aimint to play vs warhound titan...Of course then neither unit is going to be doing much but then again you shouldn't waste time anyway to kill it as you win anyway so trying to kill it just means your victory takes more time than required so you are wasting everybody's time rolling dice.
How is the gorkanaut a harder target compared to a battlewagon? Because of +1 armor does jack against anti-tank weapons?
It's not but it punches harder for less CP usage for starters. More wounds than battlewagon and with all the inv saves actually AT concentrates less on AP and more on other factors. -2 is sweet spot because 3+ with -2 is 5+ which is funnily enough your typical inv save.
How are 18 S8 attacks hitting on 3s (8 damage against T8/3+) better than 9.5 S9 attacks hitting on 2s and d3 mortal wounds (9 damage against T8/3+)? Oh, and that's before you even add in the nobz. So 139 points bonekrusha > gorkanaut on the charge, for half the points. Put flash gits inside instead of nobz and you'll have superior chaff clearing on top of that.
Gorkanaut will be having mortal wounds as well so there's that. Also you forgot 18 shots, rokkits etc from gorkanaut. Oh and 18 attacks that hits 3+ hits more than 9 attacks that hit 2+. Average hit amount alone causes more than the battlewagon has attacks. But yeah I'm sure you get more than 12 hits with 9 attacks somehow
What kind of unit is supposed to survive that charge and then surround a battlewagon so you can't disembark 10 models?
Opponent has only 1 unit in his army? Well guess if you are aimint to play vs warhound titan...
Ah, thanks for confirming that you have no clue what you are talking about.
It's not but it punches harder for less CP usage for starters. More wounds than battlewagon and with all the inv saves actually AT concentrates less on AP and more on other factors. -2 is sweet spot because 3+ with -2 is 5+ which is funnily enough your typical inv save.
Wow, almost every single think in that statement is wrong. Less negativity, more fact checking.
Gorkanaut will be having mortal wounds as well so there's that. Also you forgot 18 shots, rokkits etc from gorkanaut. Oh and 18 attacks that hits 3+ hits more than 9 attacks that hit 2+. Average hit amount alone causes more than the battlewagon has attacks. But yeah I'm sure you get more than 12 hits with 9 attacks somehow
You must have forgotten that the inbuilt mortal wounds cause damage. And that S8 doesn't wound T8 on 3+.
Do you really think you should continue to talk about this when you can't even get the contents of the battle primer right?
So for the nobz in boyz squads and the like, do I use the points value for a nob, or does he cost as much as a boy?
Also, are tank busta's 5 ppm? That doesn't sound right, but that's what it looks like on the page.
Is there no option for just a big mek? I have a big mek model with KFF, but he's not in mega armor. Seems a bit arbitrary to specify SAG or mega armor.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Is there no option for just a big mek? I have a big mek model with KFF, but he's not in mega armor. Seems a bit arbitrary to specify SAG or mega armor.
Tankbustas would be five...if they forgot their rokkit. No change at 17 total.
The KFF mek is deleted. Bye bye, model! GW decides you need to be re-purchased.
(Alternatively, just plasticard him and beef him up to 2+).
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Is there no option for just a big mek? I have a big mek model with KFF, but he's not in mega armor. Seems a bit arbitrary to specify SAG or mega armor.
Tankbustas would be five...if they forgot their rokkit. No change at 17 total.
The KFF mek is deleted. Bye bye, model! GW decides you need to be re-purchased.
(Alternatively, just plasticard him and beef him up to 2+).
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Is there no option for just a big mek? I have a big mek model with KFF, but he's not in mega armor. Seems a bit arbitrary to specify SAG or mega armor.
Index is unchanged except possibly wargear price changes in codex that will apply.
so our handful of good units actually got hit with the nerf bat......wtf?
INDEX/CODEX:
KMK: 42/60 increase in price of 42%
Boyz: 6/7 increase in price of 16.6%
warboss: 66/72 9% increase
Stormboyz: 8/9
Believe it or not, Flashgitz WENT UP in price....because going from expensive and useless to even more expensive will somehow make them less useless?
And that isn't even talking about things that should have gotten significant points drops that either didn't or got minor changes instead.
I am quickly losing faith in this codex and GW in general.
SemperMortis wrote: so our handful of good units actually got hit with the nerf bat......wtf?
INDEX/CODEX:
KMK: 42/60 increase in price of 42%
Boyz: 6/7 increase in price of 16.6%
warboss: 66/72 9% increase
Stormboyz: 8/9
Believe it or not, Flashgitz WENT UP in price....because going from expensive and useless to even more expensive will somehow make them less useless?
And that isn't even talking about things that should have gotten significant points drops that either didn't or got minor changes instead.
I am quickly losing faith in this codex and GW in general.
Problem with those good(not that they were even really good but less sucky than others) is that they were being bought and used which means GW wants to change things. Cynical view on that is GW does it to sell other units. Bit less cynical view is that they equate being used=broken so even if unit isn't good but it's least bad option means it needs to be nerfed because it is being used which means it's broken so hit the nef bat!
So glad I got cold shivers weeks ago and decided rather than more orks start a new game in form of AT. At least I have now one balanced game to enjoy with and I don't have desperate need for new ork models anyway.
SemperMortis wrote: so our handful of good units actually got hit with the nerf bat......wtf?
INDEX/CODEX:
KMK: 42/60 increase in price of 42% Boyz: 6/7 increase in price of 16.6% warboss: 66/72 9% increase Stormboyz: 8/9 Believe it or not, Flashgitz WENT UP in price....because going from expensive and useless to even more expensive will somehow make them less useless?
from leaks/rumors i heard flashgit wpn got more deadly and also the have a 4+ now (FINALLY) kmk does d6dmg instead of d3 (on a good round of shooting these will outright wreck armor), also the base of the mnek gun no longer has to pay for crew (they are free) stormboys can now deepstrike
though boyz/warboss still doenst make much sense to me as to why they are more expensive.
not saying the prices are or worth it (not till after i test them out) but this could explain why some of that stuff was more pricey.
tneva82 wrote: Not convinced any transport is worth deepstriking like that. Too easy to be surrounded, destroyed and lose whole squad. Gorkanaut seems safer bet with 8" charge
Melee battlwagon apparently has 6+D6 defrolla ttacks hitting on 2+ at S9 Ap-2 D2 and you can strategem it for a 3d6" charge and D3MW impact hits. Could be worth it, even empty?
Unlike a naught, wagon has no base, thus can fight with units on 2d floors which is a huge thing over a naught in mellee.
d6 damage vs d3 is minor buff for KMK. Not worth 42% and loss of crew is NERF. And that price increase is with crew compared so "doesn't have to pay for crew" isn't much help. Big nerf with loss of crew AND 42% price hike. That d6 sure better be worth that double nerf.
Stormboyz deep strike...Tiny boost if at all. Unless they are evil sun they are not charging reliably so DS and die. With 14" movement+evil sun though DS not even that much needed. But of course price hike hurts. That DS is pretty darn expensive ability that isn't even neccessarily even used...(and could just as well have: must be evil sun as stormboys deep striking with other clan trait is just lol bad idea. With evil sun at least you have 8" charge which isn't that bad so can avoid round of shooting at least)
Daedalus81 wrote: Going from an average of 2 damage to an average of 3.5 is a 75% increase, so, yes it is mathematically worth it.
I have to agree with you on this one. One of the things orks lack is d6 damage on anything. I'm not feeling the nerf on this one. The crew board space argument is weak...once they're that far into an ork backfield it's over anyway, and my guns die to enemy shooting,which the crew do not affect anyway.
Backfield?What does backfield really matter? If more than 5 crew were at the backfield you were doing something wrong. The grot crews were one of the best units on the whole index...Not certanly most killyness but not every model needs to be super killy.
If you just look at the kill power of unit then you are missing a ton. Grot crews were supposed to be anywhere BUT backfield. And whether gun died or not was irrelevant. Most of your crew wouldn't be anywhere near one anyway. All the gun deaths would mean would be last one would be free to move around as well.
tneva82 wrote: Backfield?What does backfield really matter? If more than 5 crew were at the backfield you were doing something wrong. The grot crews were one of the best units on the whole index...Not certanly most killyness but not every model needs to be super killy.
If you just look at the kill power of unit then you are missing a ton. Grot crews were supposed to be anywhere BUT backfield. And whether gun died or not was irrelevant. Most of your crew wouldn't be anywhere near one anyway. All the gun deaths would mean would be last one would be free to move around as well.
So A 2 point gunless grot was that much better than a 3 point one with a gun? Sure, they could objective camp, but using "Take Cover" to steal objectives after the gun is gone was just a bogus exploit, and doing so made you That Guy.
Is that what you were doing with them? If so good riddance.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Yeah tneva is whining for the sake of whining. It's definitely shaping to be a good codex compared to a lot of the other drivel released.
I am not seeing this. I am seeing a lot of nerfs to our good units and a lot of nothing for units that really needed some love. I sadly don't think this will be a good codex overall. we may get a good build out of it but I don't think it will be balanced. At the moment I still don't see how we are going to field Warbikes, even with the point reduction (18pts in 7th to 27 in index to 23 now). They wouldn't be a bad unit for shooting but that is about it. 12 warbikes = 72 shots = 28 hits which is about 18 wounds vs T4 or 6 Dead Marines. The problem is that even with that shooting buff (that included Dakkax3) they are still 23ppm so those 12 models = 276pts and they only managed to kill 6 Marines worth 78pts. And in CC they aren't good either since they still have the basic stats in CC as a Boy, so 12 Warbikers (not counting the nob for this) is 36 attacks, 24 hits and 12 wounds vs T4. or 3 Dead Marines. Not exactly awe inspiring....to put it another way, not competitive. maybe more usable in friendly games but it will never be used in competitive games. Deffkoptas are in a similar boat, they even got a pretty hefty Price cut, but I still don't see people taking a 54pt model armed with 2 Rokkitz unless they've drastically changed its profile.
Stuff like auto-hitting, deathskull-re-rolling to-wound and damage traktor cannon thingies with 5 wounds that auto-explode all Hemlocks and Castellans they finish of for the price of a devastator marine seem like the next big Malific Lord/Castellan-level thing for this season's christmas without even trying, lol.
fe40k wrote: The entire Ork army is paying for the DDD on the few units that can actually make use of it.
Also, we’re paying for tactics, stratagems, and a real codex.
Sadly I think you are right :(
Paying how? Boyz went up 1. A handful of other units went up. The vast majority of units went down and/or got stat boosts.
Boyz go up 16.6%, KMKs go up almost 50%, almost all our characters go up in points, Stormboyz go up 1ppm, Bikes dropped only 4ppm, still useless, Rokkitz are still 12pts each, Stompa still useless, Lootas still useless, Flashgitz actually went up in price.
Now I know you well enough to know you are going to come back and show me how all these nerfs are actually buffs because XYZ, just know that I don't agree with you and no amount of you trying to explain how giving us Klan Traits will change that.
For those who care to know though, take a look at the Flashgitz, they went up in price, they gained 4+ armor and their gunz became slightly better, the problem is that nobody is going to run them because they don't benefit from Klan traits AND they are 30ppm for slow infantry that have heavy gunz. And a 4+ won't do anything for them when they get blasted off the table by basically every -ap gun the enemy has because why wouldn't you delete the easy target that costs 150pts for 5 models.
Now I know you well enough to know you are going to come back and show me how all these nerfs are actually buffs because XYZ, just know that I don't agree with you and no amount of you trying to explain how giving us Klan Traits will change that.
You think what you want - won't change the end result.
For those who care to know though, take a look at the Flashgitz, they went up in price, they gained 4+ armor and their gunz became slightly better, the problem is that nobody is going to run them because they don't benefit from Klan traits AND they are 30ppm for slow infantry that have heavy gunz. And a 4+ won't do anything for them when they get blasted off the table by basically every -ap gun the enemy has because why wouldn't you delete the easy target that costs 150pts for 5 models.
I had them in a Bastion a few times - seemed quite fun, with Heavy Bolters as well and I think now the bastion can claim objectives anyway
Stuff like auto-hitting, deathskull-re-rolling to-wound and damage traktor cannon thingies with 5 wounds that auto-explode all Hemlocks and Castellans they finish of for the price of a devastator marine seem like the next big Malific Lord/Castellan-level thing for this season's christmas without even trying, lol.
Have we got confirmation that Mek Guns have Klan Kulture? Because I thought no grot units got it.
EDIT: Confirmed, Mek Guns have the Gretchin keyword, and thus cannot receive Kultur traits.
mob up a squad of 10 and 15
have them either deathskull or badmoons for improving shooting
stick them in terrain if possible for cover save
have a squad of 30ish grots nearby with runtherd to keep them from running.
when the lootas are targeted then you activate grotshield
lootas still get their saves before grots are removed
use double shoot strat (badmoon only i think) to shoot twice (not sure how many cp it costs)
lootas x25 (425)
grots x30 (90)
runtherd (35? hard to see the price)
and 2 total command pts for some survivable lootas with decent enough dakka
might be good, might not. worth trying out.
also i hear that the traktor kannon just autohits (flat out, no requirement) and is now 46ish range. might be good enough to replace the kmk as the mekgun of choice
edit
personal opinoon on what i see.
the codex is a lateral move.
we got some good stuf, some meh stuf, some bad stuf, and some great stuff.
the codex seems like its a return to "toys before boys" (personally i prefer this, but i do understand why green tide players would be upset)
Stuff like auto-hitting, deathskull-re-rolling to-wound and damage traktor cannon thingies with 5 wounds that auto-explode all Hemlocks and Castellans they finish of for the price of a devastator marine seem like the next big Malific Lord/Castellan-level thing for this season's christmas without even trying, lol.
Have we got confirmation that Mek Guns have Klan Kulture? Because I thought no grot units got it.
EDIT: Confirmed, Mek Guns have the Gretchin keyword, and thus cannot receive Kultur traits.
Wait really? That super sucks. Badmoons is looking less appealing now
Stuff like auto-hitting, deathskull-re-rolling to-wound and damage traktor cannon thingies with 5 wounds that auto-explode all Hemlocks and Castellans they finish of for the price of a devastator marine seem like the next big Malific Lord/Castellan-level thing for this season's christmas without even trying, lol.
Have we got confirmation that Mek Guns have Klan Kulture? Because I thought no grot units got it.
EDIT: Confirmed, Mek Guns have the Gretchin keyword, and thus cannot receive Kultur traits.
Wait really? That super sucks. Badmoons is looking less appealing now
still some confusions, some say it says "comprised entirly out of gretchin" witch would exclude the mek gun if that is true. maybe they only want grot squads not affected by kultures (kinda fluffy, but not very competitive).
Stuff like auto-hitting, deathskull-re-rolling to-wound and damage traktor cannon thingies with 5 wounds that auto-explode all Hemlocks and Castellans they finish of for the price of a devastator marine seem like the next big Malific Lord/Castellan-level thing for this season's christmas without even trying, lol.
still some confusions, some say it says "comprised entirly out of gretchin" witch would exclude the mek gun if that is true. maybe they only want grot squads not affected by kultures (kinda fluffy, but not very competitive).
Since Mek Guns (and Killa Kans for that matter) have the Gretchin keyword, they're Gretchin units. There's no confusion on that. It's just how keywords work in 8th. The actual name of the unit is entirely irrelevant.
You can see this clearly in just about every Codex stratagem. Completely at random, let's take Blasphemous Machines from Codex: CSM. It states "Use this Stratagem just before a HERETIC ASTARTES VEHICLE attacks in the Shooting phase." There's no unit entry called Heretic Astartes Vehicle in the codex. But there are units with Heretic Astartes and Vehicle keyword, thus making them viable targets. The name of the unit doesn't matter to the rules in the slightest. It's all about the keywords. Even Tide of Traitors, which targets a Chaos Cultist unit, only works on Chaos Cultists because they have the keyword Chaos Cultists.
still some confusions, some say it says "comprised entirly out of gretchin" witch would exclude the mek gun if that is true. maybe they only want grot squads not affected by kultures (kinda fluffy, but not very competitive).
Since Mek Guns (and Killa Kans for that matter) have the Gretchin keyword, they're Gretchin units. There's no confusion on that. It's just how keywords work in 8th. The actual name of the unit is entirely irrelevant.
You can see this clearly in just about every Codex stratagem. Completely at random, let's take Blasphemous Machines from Codex: CSM. It states "Use this Stratagem just before a HERETIC ASTARTES VEHICLE attacks in the Shooting phase." There's no unit entry called Heretic Astartes Vehicle in the codex. But there are units with Heretic Astartes and Vehicle keyword, thus making them viable targets. The name of the unit doesn't matter to the rules in the slightest. It's all about the keywords. Even Tide of Traitors, which targets a Chaos Cultist unit, only works on Chaos Cultists because they have the keyword Chaos Cultists.
Well the unit name does sometimes matter.
Using CSMs again as an example, there's a stratagem that works on Helbrutes (but not HELBRUTES), which means it can only be used with the Helbrute unit datasheet from the codex and not all the HELBRUTES made by Forgeworld.
Well the unit name does sometimes matter.
Using CSMs again as an example, there's a stratagem that works on Helbrutes (but not HELBRUTES), which means it can only be used with the Helbrute unit datasheet from the codex and not all the HELBRUTES made by Forgeworld.
Do the helbrutes from Forgeworld have the keyword Helbrute? Because the Helbrute in Codex: CSM does.
Well the unit name does sometimes matter. Using CSMs again as an example, there's a stratagem that works on Helbrutes (but not HELBRUTES), which means it can only be used with the Helbrute unit datasheet from the codex and not all the HELBRUTES made by Forgeworld.
Do the helbrutes from Forgeworld have the keyword Helbrute? Because the Helbrute in Codex: CSM does.
They do have the keyword. But the stratagem doesn't call out HELBRUTES, only Helbrutes. So it only works with the unit with the codex Helbrute that's called "Helbrute", and not the special ones from FW (because they aren't called "Helbrute", they have special fancy names).
so there is a slim chance it means a unit comprised entirely out of gretchin (models) instead of gretchin (keyword)? it would seem weird to state the way they did. they could've just said "any unit with gretchin keyword". we definitely need to ask and hopefully FAQ has an answer.
I haven't seen the rule text, but if it states GRETCHIN then they can't benefit from Kulturz. If it just says Gretchin models then Mek Gunz (and probably Killa Kanz) are safe. However given how the reviews have been talking about the rule, I assume it's based on the keyword.
Well if anyone was wondering if certain people will never truly be satisfied with the great things they get, this thread proves it. While I can understand the disappointment some have with certain units, its pretty clear the ork codex as a whole is fantastic. Stuff like a tractor kannon mek guns, deff dreads, boyz, grots, storm boyz, killa kanz, deff rolla battlewagons, deff killa wartrikes, etc, etc are all fantastic options. For those complaining about point increases, remember that all those units could nearly make it top tables despite lacking kultures, stratagem support, and other new special rules. If they stayed where they where at points wise, I guarantee people would have been demanding point increases for them by the time chapter approved arrived. To me most of the naysayers are just mad that their pet units stayed bad or appears 'worse' on the surface. Either that or they just are willfully ignoring the impact that kultures, stratagems, rule changes, and point decreases on previously poor units will have on the army because they feel entitled to blatantly OP rules. Being disappointed that stuff like the Stompa are clearly still bad is fine. Decrying the whole codex as being bad because it isn't obviously better than the most OP codex in the game right is basically trolling.
tneva82 wrote: Backfield?What does backfield really matter? If more than 5 crew were at the backfield you were doing something wrong. The grot crews were one of the best units on the whole index...Not certanly most killyness but not every model needs to be super killy.
If you just look at the kill power of unit then you are missing a ton. Grot crews were supposed to be anywhere BUT backfield. And whether gun died or not was irrelevant. Most of your crew wouldn't be anywhere near one anyway. All the gun deaths would mean would be last one would be free to move around as well.
So A 2 point gunless grot was that much better than a 3 point one with a gun? Sure, they could objective camp, but using "Take Cover" to steal objectives after the gun is gone was just a bogus exploit, and doing so made you That Guy.
Is that what you were doing with them? If so good riddance.
3 point gun but which could be shot at will. 5 grots with guns aren't uber dangerous anyway. Especially as they weren't often in range anyway. You DO realize value is not just killyness? If unit's job involves being outside of range of gun swapping gun for 50% point drop and high surviviability is excelent deal. That's like kindergarden level of miniature game tactics.
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Well Dark Reapers are even more expensive per wound. Quit whining.
You realize right cost of models isn't just point per wound_ No wonder you are always wrong with your statements since you think wounds are only thing that matter in point costing units.
Stuff like auto-hitting, deathskull-re-rolling to-wound and damage traktor cannon thingies with 5 wounds that auto-explode all Hemlocks and Castellans they finish of for the price of a devastator marine seem like the next big Malific Lord/Castellan-level thing for this season's christmas without even trying, lol.
Ah yes you are good author on what\s good when you are already planning to cheat Codex not even out yet and you plan to cheat with it...
).
Other than that it's really weird and I don't see it getting used much because unless your 
