yeah being asia exclusive would make little sense. Unless, and I only say this due to the space Marine heros, GW has eaither decided to use Japan as a test market, or GW has given it's asian branch permission to occasionally experiment with stuff on their own
lolman1c wrote: Why the hell would this be chinese only though... would be a huge kick in the face to finally bring out new ork models but china of all places are the only country to get it. Surprisingly though orks are popular here in vietnam. Especially with women. XD it's unusual but a lot of female gamers play Orks here.
Super unlikely to be chinese bootleg with japanese text though. And japan isn't big bootleg country. Well except cartoons, particularly adult versions.
Apart from legit leak options thus are japanese only release ala space marine heroes which seems unusually expensive investment for niche hobby i'm pretty sure isn't big thing in japan(marine thing worked as the way they were sold is effective in japan) or somebody having fun with photoshop
Hm. If true I'd hazard a guess to say that GW might be using specialist games as an avenue to refresh army models by splitting the use of the models over multiple revenue sources (well two sources really: those who buy the game, and those who buy the models). This potentially could earn them more money and could be a way outside of campaigns we get some new stuff snuck into 40k outside of the usual release cycle.
ClockworkZion wrote: Hm. If true I'd hazard a guess to say that GW might be using specialist games as an avenue to refresh army models by splitting the use of the models over multiple revenue sources (well two sources really: those who buy the game, and those who buy the models). This potentially could earn them more money and could be a way outside of campaigns we get some new stuff snuck into 40k outside of the usual release cycle.
I was in my local GW about a month ago and heard the manager telling someone that and I quote "He uses the packs to put things on a discount because they won't let him reduce prices" I'm not sure who he was, and who they where. but I'm gonna guess He is the CEO of GW, and "they" are the board.
So it gives a little bit of insight into some of the odd things GW's done lately.
ClockworkZion wrote: Hm. If true I'd hazard a guess to say that GW might be using specialist games as an avenue to refresh army models by splitting the use of the models over multiple revenue sources (well two sources really: those who buy the game, and those who buy the models). This potentially could earn them more money and could be a way outside of campaigns we get some new stuff snuck into 40k outside of the usual release cycle.
I was in my local GW about a month ago and heard the manager telling someone that and I quote "He uses the packs to put things on a discount because they won't let him reduce prices" I'm not sure who he was, and who they where. but I'm gonna guess He is the CEO of GW, and "they" are the board.
So it gives a little bit of insight into some of the odd things GW's done lately.
Using getting starting boxes and specialist games like Tooth and Claw as loss leaders to get people started is genius in its own way. Lowering the bar for entry is a solid business tactic (and was a long time tactic of Nintendo with them selling consoles at a loss to get you buying their games). I mean, sure, you could stock up on several copies of the box and build a legal army, but if you want a better one you'll need to buy other stuff so your entry point is lower while the rest stays the same meaning they're still going to make money (and knowing GW they're making money off all of this anyways, even if the amount isn't as much as they do off of individual kits).
ClockworkZion wrote: Hm. If true I'd hazard a guess to say that GW might be using specialist games as an avenue to refresh army models by splitting the use of the models over multiple revenue sources (well two sources really: those who buy the game, and those who buy the models). This potentially could earn them more money and could be a way outside of campaigns we get some new stuff snuck into 40k outside of the usual release cycle.
I was in my local GW about a month ago and heard the manager telling someone that and I quote "He uses the packs to put things on a discount because they won't let him reduce prices" I'm not sure who he was, and who they where. but I'm gonna guess He is the CEO of GW, and "they" are the board.
So it gives a little bit of insight into some of the odd things GW's done lately.
Using getting starting boxes and specialist games like Tooth and Claw as loss leaders to get people started is genius in its own way. Lowering the bar for entry is a solid business tactic (and was a long time tactic of Nintendo with them selling consoles at a loss to get you buying their games). I mean, sure, you could stock up on several copies of the box and build a legal army, but if you want a better one you'll need to buy other stuff so your entry point is lower while the rest stays the same meaning they're still going to make money (and knowing GW they're making money off all of this anyways, even if the amount isn't as much as they do off of individual kits).
yeah it really is solid, heck let's look at what a space Marine player whose got dark Imperium and decides to expand to this game gets for a moment?
go out and buy the space marine kill team box and you've got a primaris demi-company with a "little bit of everything"
if GW decides to put out some sort of special pack with another intercessor squad and a repulsor and you'll have just buy buying the various package deals a halfway decent primaris army with "at least 1 of everything!"
I'm going to hold my hype. I've already got burned from them announcing codex only to keep us in the dark unusually long (compared to other codexes announcements). So I'm still counting on it being late september or later. I'm quite happy about buggies leak though.
Speed freeks being Asia exclusive makes absolutely zero sense to me, so I'm fairly sure that it will be avaiable for everyone.
JawRippa wrote: I'm going to hold my hype. I've already got burned from them announcing codex only to keep us in the dark unusually long (compared to other codexes announcements). So I'm still counting on it being late september or later. I'm quite happy about buggies leak though.
Speed freeks being Asia exclusive makes absolutely zero sense to me, so I'm fairly sure that it will be avaiable for everyone.
no need to be reserved with hype, we just got a leak (not form GW) if you haven't seen it yet
JawRippa wrote: I'm going to hold my hype. I've already got burned from them announcing codex only to keep us in the dark unusually long (compared to other codexes announcements). So I'm still counting on it being late september or later. I'm quite happy about buggies leak though.
Speed freeks being Asia exclusive makes absolutely zero sense to me, so I'm fairly sure that it will be avaiable for everyone.
no need to be reserved with hype, we just got a leak (not form GW) if you haven't seen it yet
the attached copy of beast arises is intreasting, I notice you can get the GME for AT with "Titanicus" looks like a shift in direction for GW putting out mini games and offering a novel that features the stuff along with it. not a bad idea. the 40k novels are popular and IMHOGW hasn't done eneugh to really capitalize on them, although they've gotten better in that regard of late
However, I would say the beats series is the furthest thing away from the death racing of Gorkamorka. Gorkamorka is all about fun kustom built buggies where wacky inventions and ork creativity make an awesome sport. The beast series makes ork seem too serious for that. XD because the imperium doesn't understand the racing of thenorks and why they do it
The attached copy of a Beast Arises excerpt gives me a lot of hope for orks going forward. I was worried about a major shift in what orks are about and that does not appear to be happening.
Those smaller oval bases in Speed Freeks are also interesting. Could be new bikes or grot buggies or something.
Hm, I know this is based on a blurry photo of some artwork, but I’m not super-sold on the look of those new “buggies” (assuming that’s what they are) – they seem to have a lot more in the way of softer edges, compared with the rough-hewn, angular aesthetic that’s been very much the Orks’ thing since circa 3rd edition. Will have to wait and see kits though.
frozenwastes wrote: The attached copy of a Beast Arises excerpt gives me a lot of hope for orks going forward. I was worried about a major shift in what orks are about and that does not appear to be happening.
Those smaller oval bases in Speed Freeks are also interesting. Could be new bikes or grot buggies or something.
I've always felt that the beast arises is sort of indicative of where GW's got their head in place regarding Orks. and if so.. it's in a good place, savage and deadly... a far cry from the comedic NPC race
frozenwastes wrote: The attached copy of a Beast Arises excerpt gives me a lot of hope for orks going forward. I was worried about a major shift in what orks are about and that does not appear to be happening.
Those smaller oval bases in Speed Freeks are also interesting. Could be new bikes or grot buggies or something.
I've always felt that the beast arises is sort of indicative of where GW's got their head in place regarding Orks. and if so.. it's in a good place, savage and deadly... a far cry from the comedic NPC race
Yea I couldn't agree more. Lolman will have a baby if he sees this but I think the Beast Orks are exactly what Orks should be. The BA series reads like a horror at times, remember those days when Orks were actually scary?! It's been a while.
frozenwastes wrote: The attached copy of a Beast Arises excerpt gives me a lot of hope for orks going forward. I was worried about a major shift in what orks are about and that does not appear to be happening.
Those smaller oval bases in Speed Freeks are also interesting. Could be new bikes or grot buggies or something.
I've always felt that the beast arises is sort of indicative of where GW's got their head in place regarding Orks. and if so.. it's in a good place, savage and deadly... a far cry from the comedic NPC race
Yea I couldn't agree more. Lolman will have a baby if he sees this but I think the Beast Orks are exactly what Orks should be. The BA series reads like a horror at times, remember those days when Orks were actually scary?! It's been a while.
Agreed. I think what made the Orks in beast arises so scary was how little we where told about them. the lack of any Ork prespective served the story really well. As I've noted before, the end result was a bit like Jaws, where not seeing the Shark made it more terrifying.
frozenwastes wrote: The attached copy of a Beast Arises excerpt gives me a lot of hope for orks going forward. I was worried about a major shift in what orks are about and that does not appear to be happening.
Those smaller oval bases in Speed Freeks are also interesting. Could be new bikes or grot buggies or something.
I've always felt that the beast arises is sort of indicative of where GW's got their head in place regarding Orks. and if so.. it's in a good place, savage and deadly... a far cry from the comedic NPC race
Yea I couldn't agree more. Lolman will have a baby if he sees this but I think the Beast Orks are exactly what Orks should be. The BA series reads like a horror at times, remember those days when Orks were actually scary?! It's been a while.
And I will always continue to say, why can't orks be both? They have been in the past so why not now?
The key to being both comedic and frightening is to not do it at the same time. Comedy is an outlet valve the tension of fear, so you shouldn't have the comedic side of Orks present while emphasizing the terrifying. It will deflate things.
It should serve to allow for a contrast between the comedic and the brutal rather than deflating the brutal with the comedic.
WE CAN WAIT A MONTH FOR THE CODEX ASWE'RE GETTING THIS FINE VEHICLE!!!
Orktober, Septembork, either way we're getting new models. Rejoice! Not all factions have been so lucky and I'm sure they'd all rather be late and have new models than early with nothing.
That’s right – after waiting patiently (and not-so-patiently), Ork players can look forward to a brand new boxed set featuring some incredible new vehicles, like this update of the venerable Ork Warbuggy.
Looks like the Buggy isn't the only thing getting updated.
Billagio wrote: Do they have anything lined up for September (assuming SW is August)?
The Orktober thing made me a bit worried but we shall see
I believe SW aren't until September. If I've got this right, Tooth & Claw is up for pre-order 25th August, released 1st September. Actual Space Wolf codex is going to be at least one week later, probably two. Meanwhile they also have the second wave of Adeptus Titanicus miniatures (warhounds and possibly reavers or different knights), some more Kill Team stuff (Rogue Trader, maybe more), the new Middle Earth game and probably more Age of Sigmar stuff all due out extremely soon, so September is going to be pretty busy even if the main SW release is just a book, character and upgrade sprue. They might also release the GC stuff from Tooth and Claw in their own boxes.
So I wouldn't expect any ork stuff before October. I suspect it will probably be the boxed game first, followed by some other new models, then the codex along with the buggies.
I believe SW aren't until September. If I've got this right, Tooth & Claw is up for pre-order 25th August, released 1st September. Actual Space Wolf codex is going to be at least one week later, probably two. Meanwhile they also have the second wave of Adeptus Titanicus miniatures (warhounds and possibly reavers or different knights), some more Kill Team stuff (Rogue Trader, maybe more), the new Middle Earth game and probably more Age of Sigmar stuff all due out extremely soon, so September is going to be pretty busy even if the main SW release is just a book, character and upgrade sprue. They might also release the GC stuff from Tooth and Claw in their own boxes.
Space Wolf Codex pre-order was already announced for this weekend, so it will be released same day Tooth & Claw goes up for pre-order
Btw actually this reinforces my feeling codex is september. Especially if codex is accompanied by other models. Gw wouldn't want too many ork releases at the same time competing with each other. Part in september, part in october gives both full impact on release.
Absolutely buzzing for this though! I love Speed Freeks and I'm hoping they update Trukks alongside them (they won't, but I'd like easier kits to assemble).
Irbis wrote: ...so, now that orks got more vehicle models in 2018 than all other 40K factions combined...
...what will poor complain WAAAGH do now? will it *gasp* stop?
Oh, no, we'll find something new to complain about. This is the internet, after all. I'm gonna predict it's the increasing chances of an October release date for our codex.
I'm just stoked to get buggy models that don't look like complete garbage.
Irbis wrote: ...so, now that orks got more vehicle models in 2018 than all other 40K factions combined...
Knights are vehicles.
Better vehicle models, I grant you. But then you don't need to restrict that to 2018.
Knights got a total of 4 new kits, (5 if you include the AT ones, which no more count then you'd accept a blood bowl Ork release as a 40k ork release) it's POSSIABLE Orks could get more. although Orks likely aren't going to have the "differant weapons, differant kit" situation that IK players got.
Irbis wrote: ...so, now that orks got more vehicle models in 2018 than all other 40K factions combined...
Knights are vehicles.
Better vehicle models, I grant you. But then you don't need to restrict that to 2018.
Knights got a total of 4 new kits, (5 if you include the AT ones, which no more count then you'd accept a blood bowl Ork release as a 40k ork release) it's POSSIABLE Orks could get more. although Orks likely aren't going to have the "differant weapons, differant kit" situation that IK players got.
Irbis wrote: ...so, now that orks got more vehicle models in 2018 than all other 40K factions combined...
Knights are vehicles.
Better vehicle models, I grant you. But then you don't need to restrict that to 2018.
Knights got a total of 4 new kits, (5 if you include the AT ones, which no more count then you'd accept a blood bowl Ork release as a 40k ork release) it's POSSIABLE Orks could get more. although Orks likely aren't going to have the "differant weapons, differant kit" situation that IK players got.
lolman1c wrote: The stompa. We will probably complain about the stompa.
I just hope with the new UGE oomie IK (Valient and Castillan) costing what they do, and putting out that much dakka and melee dmg that the GW's playtesters address it and put the stompa where it should be, in the upper 400 point range. especially when you factor in that many of our shooting weapons get less than 1 hit on average per turn... like our big scary super rokkits - d3 shots, average 2 shots, so we hit with .66 super rokkits per turn 0.o Then the other big one the deffkannon d6 shots so average 3.5 shots. woohoo 1.15 average hits, but that can skyrocket to 2.3 hits if we shoot at a unit of 10+ models... wew infantry shredding with a str 10 ap -4 gun? I get that it has 40 wounds and that is what they probably used to justify the ~1k points cost, but it should be apparent by now that he stompa is useless in the shooting phase and against many armies dies before it hits combat the one thing it is good (literally the same as the new big IK) at
lolman1c wrote: The stompa. We will probably complain about the stompa.
I'm sorry to inform you but Orks have actually used up their quota of complaining for the year now. Now that new content has been confirmed the original leeway on the volume of ork related complaints has come to an end. From now on you can only compliment or at best give neutral responses.
You'll get a fresh allocation of complaint tickets when the new Complaint Committee reviews the situation in the new Calendar year. That is provided that you fill in forms 1-20 in triplicate and provide a down payment of at least 15 teef per ork. This must all be done before the Calendar year otherwise you'll void complaint tickets until the full meeting at the following financial year.
I hope we get more that just a buggy, and that that something ain't just a big humanoid walker. I'd rather like a... big crab walker, or maybe boyz or nobz with more esoteric equipment.. Orky robots, like giant spiders - that are either remote controlled or with a crude ai - those would be cool. Cheap Tellyportas dropped from orbit like droppods would be nice. Oh, and It would also be nice to get 'Ard boys back too, maybe like the ones in that Space Marine game that had tower shields.
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: I hope we get more that just a buggy, and that that something ain't just a big humanoid walker. I'd rather like a... big crab walker, or maybe boyz or nobz with more esoteric equipment.. Orky robots, like giant spiders - that are either remote controlled or with a crude ai - those would be cool. Cheap Tellyportas dropped from orbit like droppods would be nice. Oh, and It would also be nice to get 'Ard boys back too, maybe like the ones in that Space Marine game that had tower shields.
Im hoping we atleast get a new solo plastic warboss model, and maybe a new Ghazzy sculpt
lolman1c wrote: The stompa. We will probably complain about the stompa.
I'm sorry to inform you but Orks have actually used up their quota of complaining for the year now. Now that new content has been confirmed the original leeway on the volume of ork related complaints has come to an end. From now on you can only compliment or at best give neutral responses.
You'll get a fresh allocation of complaint tickets when the new Complaint Committee reviews the situation in the new Calendar year. That is provided that you fill in forms 1-20 in triplicate and provide a down payment of at least 15 teef per ork. This must all be done before the Calendar year otherwise you'll void complaint tickets until the full meeting at the following financial year.
SCREW DA RULEZ! WEZ AR ORKZ!
THE STOMPA SUUUUUUUUUUUUCKS!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Morgasm the Powerfull wrote: I hope we get more that just a buggy, and that that something ain't just a big humanoid walker. I'd rather like a... big crab walker, or maybe boyz or nobz with more esoteric equipment.. Orky robots, like giant spiders - that are either remote controlled or with a crude ai - those would be cool. Cheap Tellyportas dropped from orbit like droppods would be nice. Oh, and It would also be nice to get 'Ard boys back too, maybe like the ones in that Space Marine game that had tower shields.
nah, I' happy with just the buggy.
It's more than I expected.
Irbis wrote: ...so, now that orks got more vehicle models in 2018 than all other 40K factions combined...
Knights are vehicles.
Better vehicle models, I grant you. But then you don't need to restrict that to 2018.
Knights got a total of 4 new kits, (5 if you include the AT ones, which no more count then you'd accept a blood bowl Ork release as a 40k ork release) it's POSSIABLE Orks could get more. although Orks likely aren't going to have the "differant weapons, differant kit" situation that IK players got.
5th one is coming later this year.
I wouldn't say Knights got 4 new kits.
Warglaives and Helverins are the same kit, just with different weapon sprues. The Castellan and CC Knight are the same kit, just with different weapon sprues.
The Armigers and 'super Knights' are two different boxes with specific variants that could have been a single kit, but were broken into two separate boxes (purportedly) "to avoid hefty price tags for components that won't be used".
The new Knight might be just be another frame added onto the already packed Knight kits.
At best, I would say Knights got several new boxes.
It's also possible that the new buggy might come with tracks you can put on the back and then put the larger rear wheels to the front to make it level and add an extra armour plate and it can be a wartrakk
Automatically Appended Next Post: And if it doesn't, easiest conversion ever!
Overread wrote: I'm sorry to inform you but Orks have actually used up their quota of complaining for the year now. Now that new content has been confirmed the original leeway on the volume of ork related complaints has come to an end. From now on you can only compliment or at best give neutral responses.
You'll get a fresh allocation of complaint tickets when the new Complaint Committee reviews the situation in the new Calendar year. That is provided that you fill in forms 1-20 in triplicate and provide a down payment of at least 15 teef per ork. This must all be done before the Calendar year otherwise you'll void complaint tickets until the full meeting at the following financial year.
Irbis wrote: ...so, now that orks got more vehicle models in 2018 than all other 40K factions combined...
Knights are vehicles.
Better vehicle models, I grant you. But then you don't need to restrict that to 2018.
Knights got a total of 4 new kits, (5 if you include the AT ones, which no more count then you'd accept a blood bowl Ork release as a 40k ork release) it's POSSIABLE Orks could get more. although Orks likely aren't going to have the "differant weapons, differant kit" situation that IK players got.
5th one is coming later this year.
I wouldn't say Knights got 4 new kits.
Warglaives and Helverins are the same kit, just with different weapon sprues.
The Castellan and CC Knight are the same kit, just with different weapon sprues.
The Armigers and 'super Knights' are two different boxes with specific variants that could have been a single kit, but were broken into two separate boxes (purportedly) "to avoid hefty price tags for components that won't be used".
The new Knight might be just be another frame added onto the already packed Knight kits.
At best, I would say Knights got several new boxes.
lolman1c wrote: Orks get 1 new vechile and people are comparing models like squig sizes
To quote the Warhammer Community site:
That’s right – after waiting patiently (and not-so-patiently), Ork players can look forward to a brand new boxed set featuring some incredible new vehicles, like this update of the venerable Ork Warbuggy.
The Warbuggy isn't the only vehicle in the box, and it's not just a box of warbuggies according to rumors we've already seen.
lolman1c wrote: Orks get 1 new vechile and people are comparing models like squig sizes
To quote the Warhammer Community site:
That’s right – after waiting patiently (and not-so-patiently), Ork players can look forward to a brand new boxed set featuring some incredible new vehicles, like this update of the venerable Ork Warbuggy.
The Warbuggy isn't the only vehicle in the box, and it's not just a box of warbuggies according to rumors we've already seen.
Does anyone actually begrudge us this update? Really?! 21 years is a long time...
Space Wolf players, assuming there's no Russ to be released soon, are the only ones I think that have a reason to be justifiably salty at this juncture.
lolman1c wrote: Orks get 1 new vechile and people are comparing models like squig sizes
To quote the Warhammer Community site:
That’s right – after waiting patiently (and not-so-patiently), Ork players can look forward to a brand new boxed set featuring some incredible new vehicles, like this update of the venerable Ork Warbuggy.
The Warbuggy isn't the only vehicle in the box, and it's not just a box of warbuggies according to rumors we've already seen.
Does anyone actually begrudge us this update? Really?! 21 years is a long time...
Space Wolf players, assuming there's no Russ to be released soon, are the only ones I think that have a reason to be justifiably salty at this juncture.
I wasn't begrudging anyone but wanted to point out that the warbuggy shouldn't be the only thing in the box, but rather we should be seeing a few different units.
lolman1c wrote: Orks get 1 new vechile and people are comparing models like squig sizes
To quote the Warhammer Community site:
That’s right – after waiting patiently (and not-so-patiently), Ork players can look forward to a brand new boxed set featuring some incredible new vehicles, like this update of the venerable Ork Warbuggy.
The Warbuggy isn't the only vehicle in the box, and it's not just a box of warbuggies according to rumors we've already seen.
Does anyone actually begrudge us this update? Really?! 21 years is a long time...
Space Wolf players, assuming there's no Russ to be released soon, are the only ones I think that have a reason to be justifiably salty at this juncture.
the last few editions wolves got some cool stuff! they get unique fliers, wulfen, thunderwolf cavalry, now salty about codex taking so long sure, but model wise they have one of the best and newest lines. If Thier fluff were not so bad I would have more then the couple painting projects for them I have done so far.
I hope the new buggy kit is as customizable as the Hastings rumor says. I'm a little nervous that they'll end up getting the same treatment as the recent Imperial Knights kits, with what could have easily been dual kits being sold as two separate kits. I'm not sure I buy the whole "saving money" reasoning, especially on Knights which people often magnetize.
I might be biased as an Ork player though. I see extra bits as a major bonus, where maybe for other factions they might feel like a waste?
I'm super excited for the ramps! I really want to jump my vehicles over them to temporarily gain Fly while advancing or charging.
To be honest, I'm willing to pay a decent chunk of money for wheels, drivers and engines and then make the rest out of plasticard. Unfortunately, I expect those will be exactly the bits which they don't provide any spares of (although if they do have tracked versions, I could maybe make three from two).
lolman1c wrote: Orks get 1 new vechile and people are comparing models like squig sizes
To quote the Warhammer Community site:
That’s right – after waiting patiently (and not-so-patiently), Ork players can look forward to a brand new boxed set featuring some incredible new vehicles, like this update of the venerable Ork Warbuggy.
The Warbuggy isn't the only vehicle in the box, and it's not just a box of warbuggies according to rumors we've already seen.
Er, there are two different warbuggy sculpts in the box.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I can see Space Wolf players being justified in getting a little salty because the Orks looted their preview week.
I think the web team was just afraid of all the Ork howling drowning out their wolf hype and did something to head it off.
Personally I'm thrilled at the model. No army is going to get a revamp on 100% of their line. The fact that GW was willing to address the most egregious of the problems in the Ork line makes me hopeful. The bulk of our models are solid and don't need a refresh.
If we can get a couple more things (warboss, bikerboss, koptas, and of course balanced rules) I think we will be golden.
lolman1c wrote: Orks get 1 new vechile and people are comparing models like squig sizes
To quote the Warhammer Community site:
That’s right – after waiting patiently (and not-so-patiently), Ork players can look forward to a brand new boxed set featuring some incredible new vehicles, like this update of the venerable Ork Warbuggy.
The Warbuggy isn't the only vehicle in the box, and it's not just a box of warbuggies according to rumors we've already seen.
Er, there are two different warbuggy sculpts in the box.
*shrugs* I was just quoting the Warhammer Community post that claims we'd have multiple new vehicles. Who knows, maybe if you get three buggies you can use them to build an even bigger vehicles alla the Daemon Chariot of Slaanesh?
lolman1c wrote: Orks get 1 new vechile and people are comparing models like squig sizes
To quote the Warhammer Community site:
That’s right – after waiting patiently (and not-so-patiently), Ork players can look forward to a brand new boxed set featuring some incredible new vehicles, like this update of the venerable Ork Warbuggy.
The Warbuggy isn't the only vehicle in the box, and it's not just a box of warbuggies according to rumors we've already seen.
Er, there are two different warbuggy sculpts in the box.
*shrugs* I was just quoting the Warhammer Community post that claims we'd have multiple new vehicles. Who knows, maybe if you get three buggies you can use them to build an even bigger vehicles alla the Daemon Chariot of Slaanesh?
lolman1c wrote: Orks get 1 new vechile and people are comparing models like squig sizes
To quote the Warhammer Community site:
That’s right – after waiting patiently (and not-so-patiently), Ork players can look forward to a brand new boxed set featuring some incredible new vehicles, like this update of the venerable Ork Warbuggy.
The Warbuggy isn't the only vehicle in the box, and it's not just a box of warbuggies according to rumors we've already seen.
Er, there are two different warbuggy sculpts in the box.
*shrugs* I was just quoting the Warhammer Community post that claims we'd have multiple new vehicles. Who knows, maybe if you get three buggies you can use them to build an even bigger vehicles alla the Daemon Chariot of Slaanesh?
lolman1c wrote: Orks get 1 new vechile and people are comparing models like squig sizes
To quote the Warhammer Community site:
That’s right – after waiting patiently (and not-so-patiently), Ork players can look forward to a brand new boxed set featuring some incredible new vehicles, like this update of the venerable Ork Warbuggy.
The Warbuggy isn't the only vehicle in the box, and it's not just a box of warbuggies according to rumors we've already seen.
Er, there are two different warbuggy sculpts in the box.
*shrugs* I was just quoting the Warhammer Community post that claims we'd have multiple new vehicles. Who knows, maybe if you get three buggies you can use them to build an even bigger vehicles alla the Daemon Chariot of Slaanesh?
An Ork Nob on a chariot being pulled by Buggys?
OH! A Grot sled pulled by a team of Squigs!
He can have races with Logan Grimnar! damnit, this amuses me too much I kinda want this to be a thing now.
The new models look great, but I will be holding back my praise until I see some damn rules that make them worth taking. Last edition we all got so excited about the Mork/Gorkanauts, only to find out that they are basically crap and only for fluffy games at most.
And I will not be listening to Reece or any other "experts" or "Playtesters" as the last time we did that we heard that Killa Kanz and Stompas would be super amazing!
Giant squiggoth, pedal powered, weapon mounts, on space hulk, towed by multiple roks, with Grot Riggers.
In my day you could scratch build anyfink.
Space hulks turned into kannons inside space ports orbiting a looted craft world that has been retrofitted to travel through the warp making the squiggoths the size of a small moon.
SemperMortis wrote: The new models look great, but I will be holding back my praise until I see some damn rules that make them worth taking. Last edition we all got so excited about the Mork/Gorkanauts, only to find out that they are basically crap and only for fluffy games at most.
And I will not be listening to Reece or any other "experts" or "Playtesters" as the last time we did that we heard that Killa Kanz and Stompas would be super amazing!
I have learned to not hold my breath on GW giving orks good rules. in 5th we had 3 ok builds of which 2 were pretty much exploits.
1. Nob wound shenannigins which other players kept demanding be fixed and was doen in 6th
2. kanwall. thanks to the inv sav eof kff which also got nerfed
3. bw bash which again GW nerfed by killing the KFF's usability outside of the new morkanaught (coincidence?).
I am def going to get biuggies and traxx if they release them but I have tempered all hopes of getting a useful dex. orks place seems to be the comic relief and we exist to be the imperial whipping boys. heck the new reference to orks is telling... while space wolves fight genesteelers the orks simply could not compete so they went and had races on the other side of the planet.
Giant squiggoth, pedal powered, weapon mounts, on space hulk, towed by multiple roks, with Grot Riggers.
In my day you could scratch build anyfink.
Space hulks turned into kannons inside space ports orbiting a looted craft world that has been retrofitted to travel through the warp making the squiggoths the size of a small moon.
Not a disc shaped Rok on the top of 4 squiggoths the size of moons riding a Void Whale?
Void Whales are massive space beasts that live in the void and can swallow whole worlds (or WAAAAAGHS).
You scare the Snottlings and then the headers will get mad.
Pft. The Snotlings are always scared.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a seperate note, it took a lot of will power to keep working on my Primaris Imperial Fists instead of starting a Blood Axe kill team full of too many conversions in prep for the new Ork stuff. The allure of that new buggy was that good.
Thankfully I've fortified my will, ordered a sheet of FW Fist transfers and moved on for now.
SemperMortis wrote: The new models look great, but I will be holding back my praise until I see some damn rules that make them worth taking. Last edition we all got so excited about the Mork/Gorkanauts, only to find out that they are basically crap and only for fluffy games at most.
And I will not be listening to Reece or any other "experts" or "Playtesters" as the last time we did that we heard that Killa Kanz and Stompas would be super amazing!
i can see it. the last big model release we got only had one efficient model (the mek gun) and the others sucked (wazbom jet, gmorkanaut,flashgitz), so history makes many of us very pessimistic about his, i cant blame you.
though the dark eldar were bad for a long time, but with 8th editions codex they rose really quick to the top of the charts. we might be in luck that this edition because it seems GW actually cares about giving good rules to their players (the only exceptions seem to be admek and grew knights). only time will tell. regardless ill buy that box set because i want to have a gorkamorka light type game to play with my bro, and if the codex sucks ill email subdued words of disappointment to GW, and then wait to see if anything changes in chapter approved (there is always a chance that book can change things up and a way for GW to fix mistakes with armies)
geargutz wrote: though the dark eldar were bad for a long time, but with 8th editions codex they rose really quick to the top of the charts. we might be in luck that this edition because it seems GW actually cares about giving good rules to their players (the only exceptions seem to be admek and grew knights). only time will tell. regardless ill buy that box set because i want to have a gorkamorka light type game to play with my bro, and if the codex sucks ill email subdued words of disappointment to GW, and then wait to see if anything changes in chapter approved (there is always a chance that book can change things up and a way for GW to fix mistakes with armies)
Not be the voice of pessimism - but DE stats were always quite good, its just they were expensive and thus fragile. You make everything cheap and slightly up the damage in certain areas and suddenly its top tier. In 7th they were just glass, in 8th they are just cannon.
To save Ork shooting units (which is a large proportion of the roster) they need a rule that they always hit on 5s. Unfortunately I don't see them getting it. A rule saying they always hit on 6s would be nice - but that still means you are 50% effective against most Eldar lists, Alpha Legion, Ravenguard etc. Which is going to mean these units are pretty terrible in a tournament where you are going to find such matches.
But Green tide is quasi-effective now, and with a codex of buffs could easily be top tier.
Tyel wrote: To save Ork shooting units (which is a large proportion of the roster) they need a rule that they always hit on 5s. Unfortunately I don't see them getting it. A rule saying they always hit on 6s would be nice - but that still means you are 50% effective against most Eldar lists, Alpha Legion, Ravenguard etc. Which is going to mean these units are pretty terrible in a tournament where you are going to find such matches.
The other fix that our shooting units require is for their guns to do more shots. If our shooting weapons are given more shots AND we get the '6s always hit' rule I could see our shooting becoming viable.
Without both of these fixes we're going to be in trouble though, always hitting on 6s with 2 or 1 shot weapons is garbage.
I think always hitting on 6s will not change Ork shooting in any practical way. -2 is not that common, and often requires a spell, stratagem, or proximity to another unit that won't have -2.
Always hitting on 5s will do something, but that will make ork shooting better than or equal to guard vs a lot of armies. Coupled with the fact that orks will have far superior melee under all circumstances I think that just won't happen.
You're probably looking at increasing the number of shots or making flamers better in the ork army. Or simply allowing there to be a weakness to -tohit. Which I think is okay too.
It will be interesting to see what GW does to try and fix the steaming pile of crap that is our 8th edition index. and before the GW fanboys jump in and say "YOU ORKZ ARE DOING GOOD WITH YOUR INDEX!" yeah...great....thanks, every single game I play I want to bring at least 200 models. That argument has gotten old a long time ago. That is equivalent to the SM index being a dumpster fire but scouts are amazing with close combat weapons, so every Marine player is obligated to bring 60-100 of them to every game and then bring in a few random choices to fill out the list.
What I really want from our codex is for GW to fix the massive issues with our index. The #1 issue being that nothing is worth taking over boyz, and I don't want the fething answer to be "Nerf boyz" because then we won't even have to argue with anyone about whose codex is completely bottom tier. Our shooting needs a massive boost, our vehicles need a HUGE durability boost or a massive price cut, our characters and HQs need more and better Auras.
Ok, well that is enough salt for me today, have a good one.
hollow one wrote: Always hitting on 5s will do something, but that will make ork shooting better than or equal to guard vs a lot of armies. Coupled with the fact that orks will have far superior melee under all circumstances I think that just won't happen.
I don't think there is anything wrong with an investment in Ork shooting being as good as Guard (or Marines).
Right now you can put say X points in a boyz mob, or X points in a ork flyer (or flash gitz or lootaz or...) that just shoots. If the Ork flyer is mathematically bad then you shouldn't take it. The fact that ork boyz are good in melee doesn't really matter because you can't have both. If there was some synergy that having one mob of boyz and one flyer (or flash gitz etc) was better than two mobs of boyz then it might hold up - but there isn't and its hard to imagine what that would be. So you are just going to go with more boyz like under the index.
The problem with adding shots is that a 50%/100% skew on performance is too much. If you make a big shoota say mathematically "okay" hitting on 6s, its going to be a monster on those armies where you are hitting on 5s. Lets say you could get a 25%~ return from hitting on 6s - which wouldn't be that great metawise looking at IG, Eldar, Tau, Tyranid shooting etc but it isn't awful. You would be getting 50% on 5s. Which would be quite broken.
On the other hand if you price it so you get a 25-30% return on 5s, and you always get 5s, it might not be too bad. Its not setting the world alight (DE can easily get 40-50% return shooting the right targets) but its not so awful that taking these units is madness.
Really this is why I don't think blanket -1s to hit should be in the game - or they should be for armies like Harlequins where they can be baked in to the unit costs. Changing Alaitoc especially would really alter the competitive scene.
The problem with adding shots is that a 50%/100% skew on performance is too much. If you make a big shoota say mathematically "okay" hitting on 6s, its going to be a monster on those armies where you are hitting on 5s. Lets say you could get a 25%~ return from hitting on 6s - which wouldn't be that great metawise looking at IG, Eldar, Tau, Tyranid shooting etc but it isn't awful. You would be getting 50% on 5s. Which would be quite broken.
On the other hand if you price it so you get a 25-30% return on 5s, and you always get 5s, it might not be too bad. Its not setting the world alight (DE can easily get 40-50% return shooting the right targets) but its not so awful that taking these units is madness.
Really this is why I don't think blanket -1s to hit should be in the game - or they should be for armies like Harlequins where they can be baked in to the unit costs. Changing Alaitoc especially would really alter the competitive scene.
I dont think that ork shooting can be fixed in 8th edition without breaking a lot of rules. It will be interesting to see how they will solve it in the codex but i suspect that orks will be forced to be an even more one dimensional close combat army.
I think boys should stay BS5 WS3, but that ranged things like lootas and tank bustas should be BS4 WS4. It would seem lore appropriate as orks are predisposed to certain clans and types or warfare. I see no reason that an ork predisposed to shooting like a loota or a big mek who enjoys his shokk attack gun would be predisposed to not be able to hit with the thing better than melee fighters or that they spend as much time punching and slicing as an ork boy ork nob or komando to get that WS3.
heck at what shooting costs in the index I think BS3 WS5 for our ranged units would actually fix lootas, but every other faction would riot that orks are shooting liek space marines even though they are genetically predisposed to be a specific shooting unit.
hollow one wrote: Always hitting on 5s will do something, but that will make ork shooting better than or equal to guard vs a lot of armies. Coupled with the fact that orks will have far superior melee under all circumstances I think that just won't happen.
I don't think there is anything wrong with an investment in Ork shooting being as good as Guard (or Marines).
Right now you can put say X points in a boyz mob, or X points in a ork flyer (or flash gitz or lootaz or...) that just shoots. If the Ork flyer is mathematically bad then you shouldn't take it. The fact that ork boyz are good in melee doesn't really matter because you can't have both. If there was some synergy that having one mob of boyz and one flyer (or flash gitz etc) was better than two mobs of boyz then it might hold up - but there isn't and its hard to imagine what that would be. So you are just going to go with more boyz like under the index.
I don't really understand what you're saying here. If the Ork flyer is mathematically good, then you take it and take some boyz, right? How is that hard to imagine, that is very common in army composition across heaps of codexes. Isn't that like the IG army that takes a Shadowsword and 16 bullgryn, or a Castellan and 60 guardsman, shining spears and dark reapers, etc. Their synergy is playing with the strengths of each unit to have an army with fewer weaknesses. It just so happens that Ork boyz are very efficient, but I personally think that you must be bringing minimum 10 KMKs in order to have a fighting chance in the meta right now, and it would not be better if those points were in boyz. If there was a blanket rule that made KMKs shoot better I think that would be a mistake, including making them always hit on 5s.
hollow one wrote: Always hitting on 5s will do something, but that will make ork shooting better than or equal to guard vs a lot of armies. Coupled with the fact that orks will have far superior melee under all circumstances I think that just won't happen.
I don't think there is anything wrong with an investment in Ork shooting being as good as Guard (or Marines).
Right now you can put say X points in a boyz mob, or X points in a ork flyer (or flash gitz or lootaz or...) that just shoots. If the Ork flyer is mathematically bad then you shouldn't take it. The fact that ork boyz are good in melee doesn't really matter because you can't have both. If there was some synergy that having one mob of boyz and one flyer (or flash gitz etc) was better than two mobs of boyz then it might hold up - but there isn't and its hard to imagine what that would be. So you are just going to go with more boyz like under the index.
The problem with adding shots is that a 50%/100% skew on performance is too much. If you make a big shoota say mathematically "okay" hitting on 6s, its going to be a monster on those armies where you are hitting on 5s. Lets say you could get a 25%~ return from hitting on 6s - which wouldn't be that great metawise looking at IG, Eldar, Tau, Tyranid shooting etc but it isn't awful. You would be getting 50% on 5s. Which would be quite broken.
On the other hand if you price it so you get a 25-30% return on 5s, and you always get 5s, it might not be too bad. Its not setting the world alight (DE can easily get 40-50% return shooting the right targets) but its not so awful that taking these units is madness.
Really this is why I don't think blanket -1s to hit should be in the game - or they should be for armies like Harlequins where they can be baked in to the unit costs. Changing Alaitoc especially would really alter the competitive scene.
I have always said that. The only real way to put an end to deathstars or spam and make them both equally viable so people take them both. Make it where I want to give up 30-50 boyz for a Morkanaut.
hollow one wrote: Always hitting on 5s will do something, but that will make ork shooting better than or equal to guard vs a lot of armies. Coupled with the fact that orks will have far superior melee under all circumstances I think that just won't happen.
I don't think there is anything wrong with an investment in Ork shooting being as good as Guard (or Marines).
Right now you can put say X points in a boyz mob, or X points in a ork flyer (or flash gitz or lootaz or...) that just shoots. If the Ork flyer is mathematically bad then you shouldn't take it. The fact that ork boyz are good in melee doesn't really matter because you can't have both. If there was some synergy that having one mob of boyz and one flyer (or flash gitz etc) was better than two mobs of boyz then it might hold up - but there isn't and its hard to imagine what that would be. So you are just going to go with more boyz like under the index.
I don't really understand what you're saying here. If the Ork flyer is mathematically good, then you take it and take some boyz, right? How is that hard to imagine, that is very common in army composition across heaps of codexes. Isn't that like the IG army that takes a Shadowsword and 16 bullgryn, or a Castellan and 60 guardsman, shining spears and dark reapers, etc. Their synergy is playing with the strengths of each unit to have an army with fewer weaknesses. It just so happens that Ork boyz are very efficient, but I personally think that you must be bringing minimum 10 KMKs in order to have a fighting chance in the meta right now, and it would not be better if those points were in boyz. If there was a blanket rule that made KMKs shoot better I think that would be a mistake, including making them always hit on 5s.
Well gw fixed mek gun spam accidentally when the priced them at a stupidly high price. Why would I ever spend £280 on such a small part of my army unless I was a competitive player. So the casual world has been spared of ork mek gun spam.
hollow one wrote: I don't really understand what you're saying here. If the Ork flyer is mathematically good, then you take it and take some boyz, right? How is that hard to imagine, that is very common in army composition across heaps of codexes. Isn't that like the IG army that takes a Shadowsword and 16 bullgryn, or a Castellan and 60 guardsman, shining spears and dark reapers, etc. Their synergy is playing with the strengths of each unit to have an army with fewer weaknesses. It just so happens that Ork boyz are very efficient, but I personally think that you must be bringing minimum 10 KMKs in order to have a fighting chance in the meta right now, and it would not be better if those points were in boyz. If there was a blanket rule that made KMKs shoot better I think that would be a mistake, including making them always hit on 5s.
Well I might be interpreting you wrong.
As I see it you were saying (a fairly common argument) that since Ork assault is good, its fine their shooting is bad. It would be imbalanced if they were good at both.
My point is that this isn't how the game works. It could be - with a much stricter limit on what you could take - but right now it isn't.
Having a list of good assault and bad shooting units doesn't encourage you to take a mix. You just double down on the good assault units.
Now okay you mentioned KMKs - but they are reasonable. And pretty uniquely so amongst the shooting options (I mean compared to other mek gun options alone). I agree you probably want them or Tankbustas. I don't think they are top tier - but they are a world ahead of Ork flyers, Flash Gitz, Lootas, buggies and so on.
I mean you can say "Dark Reapers are great, and this justifies why Storm Guardians are comically awful" but when is the last time you saw a Storm Guardian (inb4 last night with my friend's Saim Hann Avatar Footdar list)? You see Spears because they are solid (especially Ynnari spears). If they were bad you wouldn't.
I guess what I am trying to say is that Ork shooting units should all put their weight. Theoretically, for their points, they should all be as good as KMKs.
Rumoured traits from 4chan:
Goffs: 6s in melee generate additionnal attack.
Bad Moons: Reroll 1s in shooting phase
Evil Sunz: +1" move, advance and charge. No -1 penalty when advancing and firing assault weapons
Death Skullz: 6+ invulnerable save army-wide. Some sort of reroll mechanic (à la Salamanders?)
Snakebites: 6+ FNP Freebooterz: +1 to hit when a Freebooterz unit destroyed a unit earlier in the turn.
Blood Axes: Gain cover in the open. Can shoot or charge after falling back.
Obviously source is extremely unreliable, so posting in the speculation thread. Inclusion of Freebooterz as a clan makes me even more sceptical since I've never seen GW treat them as such after 1st edition.
If true, these seem fairly bad, but in a way which strikes me as very GW.
Evil Sunz seem like the obvious best option, as I predicted they would be, but their ability benefits slower units rather than fast ones, encouraging you to take infantry, walkers, etc.
Goffs, could be poor or terrible depending on if it's a natural 6 or a 6+ they get the thing on. If the latter, not much use for power klaw users. Suffers from making orks better at the one thing they are good at, not compensating for weakness.
Bad Moonz, seems bad unless ork shooting is seriously improved. Only really worth it for units with 4+ BS and kustom mega weapons. Wouldn't be surprised if grots didn't even get the benefit though.
Snake Bites is OK, but makes painboys a bit redundant, which is contrary to SB having a lot of them. If it gives +1 to the painboy aura effect then it's actually good.
Blood Axes is questionable. Good synergy with kommandos at least. Nice for vehicle lists.
Deffskulls is mostly useless. Reinforces my general inclination to switch to ES if this is true. Invulnerable save is not worth much and a single reroll is unlikely to be helpful in an army which emphasises numbers over quality. Small chance it could be OK if it allows any dice to be rerolled, since that would let you reroll the number of shots for lootas and burnas.
EDIT: Freebootaz might be the best of the lot if it works for shooting and fighting but of course it encourages you to take an army of nothing but freebootaz, not a small detachment.
Effective flak armor for Blood Axes is decent. Not OP but helpful. The falling back bonus could help shoota boyz against poxwalkers or other big tarpits.
tneva82 wrote: Makes rather ironic when during 3-7 editions people were glamouring for shooting modifiers as The Holy Grail.
Nothing wrong with shooting modifiers, even for orks, as long as you can get positive ones as well as the negative ones.
Say a "take aim" action for models that don't move (excluding "heavy" weapons, which get the penalty if the move), maybe a strategem to provide a further +1, or +1 at pistol range or something.
its the way we only have negatives thats the issue currently.
Personally I'd give orks BS:4+, but have a rule so units of 20+ have a -1 to hit as they start to get rowdy (so you can have the +1 attack of a large mob, or effective shooting, but not both - maybe just units of up to 10 - so the fire support orks work, but the larger mobs don't become gunlines. Maybe call it "easily distracted" or something
The more I think about the evil sunz trait the less I understand it. That trait does next to nothing for a speed freeks army but helps almost every other ork build quite a bit. Well okay, not next to nothing just comparatively less..
I had previously suggested that the evil sunz trait would only affect vehicles (maybe specify vehicles further) and bikes and grant +3" movement and the ability to advance and charge in the same turn. This would make transports more viable and everything zooming around the board just a little bit better..
PiñaColada wrote: The more I think about the evil sunz trait the less I understand it. That trait does next to nothing for a speed freeks army but helps almost every other ork build quite a bit.
I had previously suggested that the evil sunz trait would only affect vehicles (maybe specify vehicles further) and bikes and grant +3" movement and the ability to advance and charge in the same turn. This would make transports more viable and everything zooming around the board just a little bit better..
Can seen Evil Sunz having a "move again" strategem as thier thing, then the trait just makes other things a little bit faster
Can see Blood Axes having what the Jorumgederereeeder Nids have, count as in cover in the open, lost if they charge or advance, with an infiltration strat of something to do with pre-game movement
Goffs getting "can fall back and charge again", plus a strategem to grant bonus attacks (and a generic ork one for "fight again"
can see Bad Moons getting a bonus to shooting if they stand still
Snakebites maybe get some sort of psi bonus or shut down
can see DeffSkulls getting FnP from warpaint
Think the traits won't do a vast amount, which I'm happy with, small bonuses, but then a clan strategem thats perhaps a bit more useful
I suggest Tyranids are probably not a bad model for the sort of traits
An Actual Englishman wrote: The Evil Sunz tactic is really uninspired and pretty disappointing to be honest, if it's correct.
As expected it benefits infantry heavy lists most which is as anti Evil Sunz as you can get.
No reason such a trait couldn't have "units with they <vehicle? keyword only" attached though>
It'd need to be "vehicle" and "bike" (since they also do bikes) to work properly. Then again, then you'd end up with fast jogging Deff Dreads I guess.
true, would be like GW to give it to all vehicles (I thought bikes were vehicles?, if not then yes Bikes & vehicles), will make walkers a bit faster, not seeing a problem to be honest with that.
Whatever they do there will be evidence that the law of unintended consequences is in full effect
Goffs: 6s in melee generate additionnal attack.
Bad Moons: Reroll 1s in shooting phase
Evil Sunz: +1" move, advance and charge. No -1 penalty when advancing and firing assault weapons
Death Skullz: 6+ invulnerable save army-wide. Some sort of reroll mechanic (à la Salamanders?)
Snakebites: 6+ FNP Freebooterz: +1 to hit when a Freebooterz unit destroyed a unit earlier in the turn.
Blood Axes: Gain cover in the open. Can shoot or charge after falling back.
.
I'll eat my favorite squig if this is true. I think it's too early for any rumors (reliable rumors have been few and far between in recent years), and these are so completely zogging boring I could have guessed them 6 months ago.
And many don't make sense - like the blood axe one seems too good. It combines 2 different tyranid 'chapter tactics', plus being able to shoot.
IDK, my thought is that if chapter master valrak makes a youtube video of it, I automatically toss it out.
Billagio wrote: I always thought the evil suns vehicles tactics would be -1 to hit for vehicles and bikes. dunno about infantry
I feel like GW are moving away from - 1 to hit traits, thankfully. The last codex that got it was eldar I believe and one of the space wolves stratagems that has the same effect cost 3cp. I hope they change all instances of that trait in the big faq/CA
Billagio wrote: I always thought the evil suns vehicles tactics would be -1 to hit for vehicles and bikes. dunno about infantry
Can see the "mahoosive clouds of black smoke" as a strategem to be honest, probably better that way as then it can have a bit more bite than just -1 to hit, maybe -1 to hit and counts as in cover, or if we get seriously lucky the ability to provide the same to nearby units (think Venomthropes) if the unit has moved fast enough - limiting that aura effect to bikes - play in on a bike mounted character who cannot be sniped
Billagio wrote: I always thought the evil suns vehicles tactics would be -1 to hit for vehicles and bikes. dunno about infantry
Can see the "mahoosive clouds of black smoke" as a strategem to be honest, probably better that way as then it can have a bit more bite than just -1 to hit, maybe -1 to hit and counts as in cover, or if we get seriously lucky the ability to provide the same to nearby units (think Venomthropes) if the unit has moved fast enough - limiting that aura effect to bikes - play in on a bike mounted character who cannot be sniped
I wish they would bring back the old Bike smoke cloud rule. Made bikes actually useful and not just expensive cannon fodder
Billagio wrote: I always thought the evil suns vehicles tactics would be -1 to hit for vehicles and bikes. dunno about infantry
Can see the "mahoosive clouds of black smoke" as a strategem to be honest, probably better that way as then it can have a bit more bite than just -1 to hit, maybe -1 to hit and counts as in cover, or if we get seriously lucky the ability to provide the same to nearby units (think Venomthropes) if the unit has moved fast enough - limiting that aura effect to bikes - play in on a bike mounted character who cannot be sniped
I wish they would bring back the old Bike smoke cloud rule. Made bikes actually useful and not just expensive cannon fodder
wouldn't be too hard to do, literally run like Venomthropes, possibly with a requirement to actually move.
3 and other bikes & infantry get a -1 to hit if within 6" (IIRC its 6"), 6 of them and this extends to vehicles, the full 9 and the stompa gets it as well. Possibly have it as a requirement that if you are within 6" of that many (even if from different units) you get it
Like others, I'm not too impressed by those rumored Clan traits from 4chan. It's hard to judge things without knowing what other changes there will be in the codex (and of course these rumors are probably inaccurate).
Goffs: Exploding 6s in melee is good, but it also seems like a "win more" ability more than something that is super useful. It might help out Nobz some.
Bad Moons: Re-rolling 1s to hit in the shooting phase is pretty garbage unless shooting has seen significant improvement improvements in other ways. If I did the math right this means about 5.6% more hits for most units. Maybe it also includes re-rolling 1s to wound and for damage rolls? That would be better, but still not great for most units. Might be good for Flash Gitz (if they can take Clan keywords in the codex) and artillery.
Evil Sunz: As has been said, this is a great ability for footsloggers and Deff Dreads but not necessarily that great for fast vehicles and bikes.
Deathskulls: I have a hard time judging this one. A 6+ invulnerable is okay (not great but not bad) but doesn't stack with a KFF. A re-roll ability could be really good with certain units, depending on how it's worded. Like if it gives Lootas and Burnas the ability to re-roll their number of shots without using a stratagem, or giving Tankbustas a re-roll to wound. Not as useful for Boyz though.
Snakebites: 6+ FNP could potentially be good, especially if it stacked somehow with the Painboy ability, but I'm not sure if it is good enough all by itself. Maybe.
Freebooterz: Potentially really powerful. I doubt this one the most, as least as it was written previously.
Blood Axes: Seems really good. I kind of expect something like the first part. The second part is really powerful, as it allows us to attack first more often with our glass hammers.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Like others, I'm not too impressed by those rumored Clan traits from 4chan. It's hard to judge things without knowing what other changes there will be in the codex (and of course these rumors are probably inaccurate).
Goffs: Exploding 6s in melee is good, but it also seems like a "win more" ability more than something that is super useful. It might help out Nobz some.
Bad Moons: Re-rolling 1s to hit in the shooting phase is pretty garbage unless shooting has seen significant improvement improvements in other ways. If I did the math right this means about 5.6% more hits for most units. Maybe it also includes re-rolling 1s to wound and for damage rolls? That would be better, but still not great for most units. Might be good for Flash Gitz (if they can take Clan keywords in the codex) and artillery.
Evil Sunz: As has been said, this is a great ability for footsloggers and Deff Dreads but not necessarily that great for fast vehicles and bikes.
Deathskulls: I have a hard time judging this one. A 6+ invulnerable is okay (not great but not bad) but doesn't stack with a KFF. A re-roll ability could be really good with certain units, depending on how it's worded. Like if it gives Lootas and Burnas the ability to re-roll their number of shots without using a stratagem, or giving Tankbustas a re-roll to wound. Not as useful for Boyz though.
Snakebites: 6+ FNP could potentially be good, especially if it stacked somehow with the Painboy ability, but I'm not sure if it is good enough all by itself. Maybe.
Freebooterz: Potentially really powerful. I doubt this one the most, as least as it was written previously.
Blood Axes: Seems really good. I kind of expect something like the first part. The second part is really powerful, as it allows us to attack first more often with our glass hammers.
They come from a email Chapter Master Valrack got from someone claiming to be a playtester. It's likely fake.
If shooting attacks have seen a decent increase, if the clan traits only affect certain units, if the stratagems and relics are decent for certain clans and if our weaker units have seen upgrades we're there or thereabouts.
If shooting attacks have seen a decent increase, if the clan traits only affect certain units, if the stratagems and relics are decent for certain clans and if our weaker units have seen upgrades we're there or thereabouts.
Not much I know!
I'm sticking to the "pics or not real" method of rumor salting.
Okay, so I need to say this: Evil Sunz is not kult of speed. Evil Sunz' main things is an increase of meks. And while that does justify better vehicles, it also means dread mobs, lots of crazy contraptions, and spanna boyz laying waste to the enemy. An Evil Sunz army with just speedsters only makes since in the same way as white scars with only bikes: If your idea of "fluffy" is presenting a one dimensional list that bludgeons people with a single trait.
And secondly, the speed boost needs to apply to infantry because of trukk boyz. Because boyz are still going to be your main workhorse, and trukk boyz not being able to make their assault after disembarking from their transport is going to make the trait pointless.
its GW, there will be stuff thats pointless, stuff thats broken, and stuff they will mess up with the FAQ shortly after, the CA2018 will mess the lot up
business as usual, but the green machine will still be by a mile the most fun
not partiuclarly eager to watch a youtube video anyone willing to summerize?
He says he got an email from someone claiming to be a playtester that says the same things we've heard. I'm calling fake until we see pictures or Warhammer Community posts that prove otherwise.
not partiuclarly eager to watch a youtube video anyone willing to summerize?
He says he got an email from someone claiming to be a playtester that says the same things we've heard. I'm calling fake until we see pictures or Warhammer Community posts that prove otherwise.
I've not heard anything beyond rampent speculation.
not partiuclarly eager to watch a youtube video anyone willing to summerize?
He says he got an email from someone claiming to be a playtester that says the same things we've heard. I'm calling fake until we see pictures or Warhammer Community posts that prove otherwise.
I've not heard anything beyond rampent speculation.
I mean with the Klan traits. So basically nothing concrete.
not partiuclarly eager to watch a youtube video anyone willing to summerize?
He says he got an email from someone claiming to be a playtester that says the same things we've heard. I'm calling fake until we see pictures or Warhammer Community posts that prove otherwise.
fe40k wrote: The Deffskullz and Snakebites seem backwards; since they'll likely be bringing KFF's or Painboyz, so they won't stack - but that's probably the point.
One thing that I just realized; for better or worse, our codex will be what it will be, for a little over a year.
Orkz will be releasing too close to Chapter Approved to expect any changes in there.
Don't count on those rumors until you see pictures.
If the leak came from a playtester, there's no reason to assume that its the only possible set floating out there. In fact, if I were gw, I would use different 'possible' rules to weed out who might be leaking gak
davou wrote: If the leak came from a playtester, there's no reason to assume that its the only possible set floating out there. In fact, if I were gw, I would use different 'possible' rules to weed out who might be leaking gak
He could also be making stuff up based on other armies. It's not like it'd be the first time that's happened to us.
davou wrote: If the leak came from a playtester, there's no reason to assume that its the only possible set floating out there. In fact, if I were gw, I would use different 'possible' rules to weed out who might be leaking gak
I doubt that it is real. Seems wa-a-ay too uninspired and anti-fluffy, even for GW.
- Goff seems to be "win more"
- Bad Moon one is just pure trash unless there is some global improvement to our shooting we don't know about. It is basically plus ~5% to damage output.
- Evil sunz boost boys better than trukks and buggies.
- Deathsculls don't stack with KFF.
- Freebootas sounds cool though, I'd test that out. But I doubt that Freebootas will be a thing given how Badrukk had no Freeboota keyword in index.
Also, "GW playtester sent me a message" - and his main language is not english? Excuse me? GW is stationed in UK, why on Earth would they get non-english speaking person to playtest their stuff?
In addition, rules usualy get leaked 2-3 weaks before release, not ~2 month before release... Video has no photos or any other evidence. Just a gakky clickbait, as usual from this youtuber. Carry on.
Luke_Prowler wrote: Okay, so I need to say this: Evil Sunz is not kult of speed. Evil Sunz' main things is an increase of meks. And while that does justify better vehicles, it also means dread mobs, lots of crazy contraptions, and spanna boyz laying waste to the enemy. An Evil Sunz army with just speedsters only makes since in the same way as white scars with only bikes: If your idea of "fluffy" is presenting a one dimensional list that bludgeons people with a single trait.
And secondly, the speed boost needs to apply to infantry because of trukk boyz. Because boyz are still going to be your main workhorse, and trukk boyz not being able to make their assault after disembarking from their transport is going to make the trait pointless.
We know Evil Sunz aren't the same thing as Kult of Speed but there is clearly a similarity. To quote the wiki (can't be bothered to get my codexes out right now);
The Evil Sunz love loud, rumbling engines, the smell of gasoline, and above all, going as fast as Orkily possible - arguably even more than splitting heads (of course, going as fast as Orkily possible while splitting heads is a dream fulfilled). Usually, an Evil Sunz band will consist almost entirely of Speed Kult members. Even warbands that haven't given completely over to their love of speed will often have many bikes or vehicles in their force. The clan also contains more Mekboyz than most, and therefore they often field more mechanical creations than other clanz. What little footsloggers they do have are saving up their teeth for a good bike, or perhaps a group of Ork mates are pooling in for a flash truck.
Their 'main thing' is an obsession with going fast. Whether that's on Bike, Trukk, Plane or on foot. They have lots of Meks because they have lots if vehicles.
I agree that the trait should affect Boys to a degree but when it incentivises a player to take foot troops over vehicular based units its clearly wrong.
E - Reece from FLG said that the Speed Freeks thing is just 'the tip of the iceberg'. Heavily, heavily hinted at many more new models to come. Timestamp for anyone interested; https://youtu.be/V1DoTq4Cz1o?t=1102
If we don't at least get a strategem where we can disembark after the Trukk has moved, I will be very disappointed. Should maybe be an ability or special rule even, otherwise you can only do one per turn.
Can't see how Trukk boyz would ever be useful otherwise.
warhammer community wrote:This boxed set pits you against a friend in a series of death races between a variety of Orkish speedsters, including the aforementioned Kustom Boosta-blasta and the Shokkjump Dragsta – a racer that uses shokk-attack technology to project itself ahead of the competition – or just into anyone that looks like they need smashin’ up.
By the looks of it, the second buggy comes with a rokkit launcha, a plasma-looking mystery gun and a SAG-turbo boost.
True, might be a close combat weapon similar to kopta blades.
Considering other armies, the attack squig on the driver seat might even be able to attack in combat
Also note how they kept the triangular noses on the new ork boyz. That's pretty much a give away that the pig-nosed orruks won't be going to space any time soon (Thanks to lolman for that observation).
Perfect Organism wrote: I'm pretty sure I can spot a couple of squigs on or behind the mystery trike.
My goodness.
Is, is that Klaw also a SQUIG LAUNCHA?!!?!
These reveals are so epic.
The terrain looks brilliant. The Buggies are both great and varied. Now it looks like we're getting a legitimate Biker Boss kit?! The boss himself looks to be a unit too. This is all too awesome.
Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but the FLG podcast talked about the ork leaks. They said some lines like that these buggies (i am paraphrasing as i don't remember the exact wording) were "just the first of many new releases for orks" That everything "should be out by Christmas" (which was said with a bit of hesitation making me believe that there might be quiet a few kits that they are even doubting it will all be released by Christmas) and that "ork players patience is about to pay off".
I have a feeling that if the buggies are getting larger and closer to a true scale they are ready to do it for a bunch of the ork line. Anyway, that's the wild speculating I'm doing after listening to it.
Asmodios wrote: Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but the FLG podcast talked about the ork leaks. They said some lines like that these buggies (i am paraphrasing as i don't remember the exact wording) were "just the first of many new releases for orks" That everything "should be out by Christmas" (which was said with a bit of hesitation making me believe that there might be quiet a few kits that they are even doubting it will all be released by Christmas) and that "ork players patience is about to pay off".
I have a feeling that if the buggies are getting larger and closer to a true scale they are ready to do it for a bunch of the ork line. Anyway, that's the wild speculating I'm doing after listening to it.
You're not wrong though. His exact words were "[the new buggies] are just the tip of the iceberg". I reckon this might form part of a larger release, in which case my wallet better get the lube out for the pounding it's going to take.
Asmodios wrote: Not sure if it has been mentioned on here but the FLG podcast talked about the ork leaks. They said some lines like that these buggies (i am paraphrasing as i don't remember the exact wording) were "just the first of many new releases for orks" That everything "should be out by Christmas" (which was said with a bit of hesitation making me believe that there might be quiet a few kits that they are even doubting it will all be released by Christmas) and that "ork players patience is about to pay off".
I have a feeling that if the buggies are getting larger and closer to a true scale they are ready to do it for a bunch of the ork line. Anyway, that's the wild speculating I'm doing after listening to it.
You're not wrong though. His exact words were "[the new buggies] are just the tip of the iceberg". I reckon this might form part of a larger release, in which case my wallet better get the lube out for the pounding it's going to take.
Well without seeing your post it looks like we had the same takeaway. While I'm so happy for ork players I'm scared if the models are too good ill have to start adding to my hundreds of fantasy goblins with futuristic boys and squids.... my wallet isn't ready
I don't think anyone's ready. Why didn't GW give us more time to prepare?
But seriously, I hope this ork release sells incredibly well so GW understands not only how much we as ork players appreciate the effort clearly put into these models but also that remaking old models in general is worth it.
Several races have plenty of old stuff due for an upgrade even if they knock it out of the park with orks (hopefully)
Asmodios wrote: Well without seeing your post it looks like we had the same takeaway. While I'm so happy for ork players I'm scared if the models are too good ill have to start adding to my hundreds of fantasy goblins with futuristic boys and squids.... my wallet isn't ready
Definitely, Reece was extremely positive. He always is but he was all but stating we should prepare ourselves for all the releases and that many are coming.
It's time you joined da 40k WAAAAAGGGGHHH!! ya backwards git!
Asmodios wrote: Well without seeing your post it looks like we had the same takeaway. While I'm so happy for ork players I'm scared if the models are too good ill have to start adding to my hundreds of fantasy goblins with futuristic boys and squids.... my wallet isn't ready
Definitely, Reece was extremely positive. He always is but he was all but stating we should prepare ourselves for all the releases and that many are coming.
It's time you joined da 40k WAAAAAGGGGHHH!! ya backwards git!
I swore an oath id never paint that much green again after fantasy these rumors are so tempting though
Perfect Organism wrote: I'm pretty sure I can spot a couple of squigs on or behind the mystery trike.
My goodness.
Is, is that Klaw also a SQUIG LAUNCHA?!!?!
These reveals are so epic.
The terrain looks brilliant. The Buggies are both great and varied. Now it looks like we're getting a legitimate Biker Boss kit?! The boss himself looks to be a unit too. This is all too awesome.
PiñaColada wrote: I don't think anyone's ready. Why didn't GW give us more time to prepare?
But seriously, I hope this ork release sells incredibly well so GW understands not only how much we as ork players appreciate the effort clearly put into these models but also that remaking old models in general is worth it.
Several races have plenty of old stuff due for an upgrade even if they knock it out of the park with orks (hopefully)
I always thought the old GW way of producing stuff was weird
> I don't know guys SM just seems to outsell orks
>do you think it could be because we haven't released new orks in over a decade?
>No no it must be because people don't like orks as much
repeat that exact conversation for almost everything lol
likely more interesting than the real thing, just hoping in the codex they are more than just generic "buggies" but you have a few options for the different designs that do slightly different things.
Asmodios wrote: Well without seeing your post it looks like we had the same takeaway. While I'm so happy for ork players I'm scared if the models are too good ill have to start adding to my hundreds of fantasy goblins with futuristic boys and squids.... my wallet isn't ready
Definitely, Reece was extremely positive. He always is but he was all but stating we should prepare ourselves for all the releases and that many are coming.
It's time you joined da 40k WAAAAAGGGGHHH!! ya backwards git!
Sounds good for model release wise.
I sure hope he doesn't start to preach how awesome rules are. His track record on that is so bad I would rather have him say how BAD rules are. Then they might actually be good!
Honestly what I'm hoping for is that this Formula-One style buggy is going to be our solution for anti-tank. A bunch of speedy, fast-attack choices that are geared towards tank/monster hunting. It has missiles and a plasma weapon, so it clearly is geared towards that. I can see these coming in squadrons at a cheap enough points cost to hunt down slower, heavier vehicles- probably with some sort of outflank rule.
Perfect Organism wrote: I'm pretty sure I can spot a couple of squigs on or behind the mystery trike.
hey, nice linework, your really selling what it could very well look like.
(posted in the speedfreeks rumors thread)
i have a theory.
they are phasing out the old warbuggy/wartrack/boss on bike models and or rules (left inside the index) and being replaced by these new buggies and that warboss looking fella in the back.
my reasoning, so far the 2 buggies we have seen are vastly different then what we have now, not only are they bigger but they are packed with unique weapons (and more then just one, the SAG version has rokets and some type of mek weapon on the front with what looks like a targeting squig). also they have their own unique names.
so i say dont hope GW will still support the old buggies and tracks, and just look forward to the new blood of green muscle cars. im at the same time hyped and a little sad. (its very much like the 1st reveal trailer with them smashing the old buggy, they are most likely doing that to some of our codex, at least the new stuff is frigging awesome)
Vitali Advenil wrote: Honestly what I'm hoping for is that this Formula-One style buggy is going to be our solution for anti-tank. A bunch of speedy, fast-attack choices that are geared towards tank/monster hunting. It has missiles and a plasma weapon, so it clearly is geared towards that. I can see these coming in squadrons at a cheap enough points cost to hunt down slower, heavier vehicles- probably with some sort of outflank rule.
Yup, definitely our weakpoint. Would be nice to see tankbustas get bonus to MONSTERs as well as VEHICLES
welp, that seems like thats it for ork news (at least maybe until the nova), so time for unadulterated speculations.
i have suggested before that i think the 2 new buggies are not going to be actually the buggies we are used to and will instead be their own uniqgue vehicles, but i have a theory.
that 3rd yet unrevealed buggy on the box of speed freaks. i propose it might be the new actual "buggy/wartrack" that will technically replace the old buggies/wartracks and assume their profile (but most likely with tweeks). i suspect this because just looking at it shows what only looks like it has a possible bigshoota/dakka weapon and no aprerent other noticeable upgrades or dudads (unless you consider the grot strapped to the front to be a sort of wargear...more speculation is needed). this could be a very customizable kit that has at least the twin roket/bigshoota or skorcha and will have the option to add tredds. it will replace the old ones and probably be the "cheap" option when it comes to the new ork vehicles since the 2 revealed roadsters seem to be leagues more advanced then what a buggy/wartrack actually is.
so in the end with what we see from the speed freek box art and the back ground of the pic for the shockjumpah it looks like we will get both the Kustom Boosta-blasta and the Shokkjump Dragsta along with a new boss trike and a new all purpose buggie/wartrack.
even if my theory about the 3rd buggie is not correct i will just say it's most likely another type of unique buggy with its own quirks compared to the others, and even if these 3 new buggies are only maximum 3 per squad we can at least can make speed freaks lists with new trike boss accompanied by 9 deadly buggies and followed by waves of warbikers and trucks with eager boys (of coarse this all assumes that all these units will me reasonably points costed so we can field a horde of them if we wanted to).
edit
more speculation, the grot on the front of the 3rd buggie is a "grot shield" and will tank the 1st hit on the vehicle, because if it worked in kill team for boyz on da ground then why cant it work for our buggies
Vitali Advenil wrote: Honestly what I'm hoping for is that this Formula-One style buggy is going to be our solution for anti-tank. A bunch of speedy, fast-attack choices that are geared towards tank/monster hunting. It has missiles and a plasma weapon, so it clearly is geared towards that. I can see these coming in squadrons at a cheap enough points cost to hunt down slower, heavier vehicles- probably with some sort of outflank rule.
Yup, definitely our weakpoint. Would be nice to see tankbustas get bonus to MONSTERs as well as VEHICLES
Agreed; rename the rule to "Big Game Hunters" instead of "Tank Hunters", and let them get the bonus versus other large targets.
It makes sense, and monsters often have nearly identical stat lines to tanks.
At least the Shokkjump Dragsta could be the same datasheet as the warbuggy, since it's pretty much a rokkit buggy with two additinal pieces of wargear.
The trike has a dakkagun on it, so it's more likely to be a new datasheet than replace the warbuggy. It might replace the wartrakk though, actually making wartrakks different from buggies..
In general, I expect the warbuggies to allow you to pick one of the ork standard weapons (big shoota, dakka gun, rokkit) and a big turret weapon plus some wargear like the SAG drive, the skorcha exhausts, the grot shield or the front grinder.
"posted this on another thread but is more relevant here as its speculation"
hey,maybe we will get a system like the deldar, being able to get multiple clans for cool detachments. ork fluff on waaaghs is when clans can ignore their rivalry's to band together to cromp other gits.
it would be like having our own pool of allies.
it seems Gw is more and more willing to experiment with such things with them doing the cool cabal cand covens mix matching and now the new space wolf sagas.
a cool system would be a "choose your waaaagh" that gives us back our once a game waaagh ability but gives us different variants to best suit our play styles.
dakka waaaagh (reroll all shooting?)
charging waaaaagh (extra charge dice?)
more punchy waaaagh (more atacks or better ws?)
burny waaagh (reroll all flamer hits or better rend?)
wierd waaagh (whatever this is, it would be realy weird, like tunring the enemy warlord into a squig random table stuff?
That wouldn't be like dark eldars. Dark eldars gets more patrol detachments. Of course in standard play not that useful as you will be limited in CP's.
Speaking of which I need to start painting ork boyz. Currently I have 1 unit of boyz from 4 clans...
geargutz wrote: "posted this on another thread but is more relevant here as its speculation"
hey,maybe we will get a system like the deldar, being able to get multiple clans for cool detachments. ork fluff on waaaghs is when clans can ignore their rivalry's to band together to cromp other gits.
it would be like having our own pool of allies.
it seems Gw is more and more willing to experiment with such things with them doing the cool cabal cand covens mix matching and now the new space wolf sagas.
a cool system would be a "choose your waaaagh" that gives us back our once a game waaagh ability but gives us different variants to best suit our play styles.
dakka waaaagh (reroll all shooting?)
charging waaaaagh (extra charge dice?)
more punchy waaaagh (more atacks or better ws?)
burny waaagh (reroll all flamer hits or better rend?)
wierd waaagh (whatever this is, it would be realy weird, like tunring the enemy warlord into a squig random table stuff?
Wouldn't those abilities rather be stratagems?
Your Waaagh!'s are pretty much the same as clan rules, except they are not connected to a paint scheme. The current wording on most ork auras heavily implies that GW wants us to use one clan per detachment. Also note that in novels about the war on Armageddon, Thrakka usually builds armies out of similar minded orks (=klans) to make them work better.
Something I could see is a "The Great Waaagh!" klan trait, which is basically what the supplement that shall not be named tried to bring us: A Waaagh! made up of so many orks and klans that they just do everything by strength of numbers.
I really don't think the new buggies will be comparable to the old in terms of performance on the tabletop and (hopefully) role. We have a fast, lightweight unit in our Warbikes and Nob Bikers. I think these new units are going to be much more equivalent to a tank than the previous buggy. I mean look at the size of them. It also saves GW having to put out looted wagon rules and it encourages new purchases (people might not need new buggies as they have a ton already). Finally I too hope, as someone else said earlier, that at least one of these vehicles has an anti tank role. A nippy tank hunting buggy would be awesome and very Orky.
The currently unreleased box art buggy probably exists in one form or another - maybe through an expansion to the Speed Freeks box if not in the box itself. I think it will have more weapons than it has on the box art because the Dragster does too. There's also the exploding vehicle on the box in the background that has a ram we've yet to see.
The trike is surely a boss on bike model. Probably also able to make Painboy and Mek on bike. The size of the 'boss' leads me to think we're going to get an updated Ghazzy model that can be dual built as a MA warboss. I'm not sure GW will use the term 'Primeork' but it looks like our new models are heavily influenced by that lore regardless (bigger, meaner bosses, more technologically advanced weaponry, less ramshackle vehicles, more intelligent Orks and Gretchin).
The terrain is interesting. Will it convey rules in 40k? Does it interact in a special way with the new stuff or is it just there for show? How much is there because from the teaser I spotted around 6-8 features of various size.
I’m still crossing my fingers that we might get some sort of DEldar style exception to the rules that’ll allow us to mix Clans in detachments; I don’t want to be forced to take e.g multiple Warbosses/a Goff Mek to be able to mix Clans in my army. There’s obviously the risk of shenanigans here (i.e. giving the “best” clan trait to any unit for their particular role), but you could get around this by saying you can only choose a Clan keyword for any unit if there’s also a boyz mob of that clan in the detachment (harking back to the way things worked in 1st ed).
If we get single-clan-only detachments, I hope we get a Lieutenant-equivalent boss, sitting somewhere between a Boss Nob and a Warboss.
Bad moon stuff always makes me wish I could paint yellow.
But at the same time I always think one model looks amazing, a whole army in yellow can look like a mess even if you are great at painting. (See the AOS Orks as an example).
I guess if you can chip and fade it out it might work.
Nazrak wrote: I’m still crossing my fingers that we might get some sort of DEldar style exception to the rules that’ll allow us to mix Clans in detachments; I don’t want to be forced to take e.g multiple Warbosses/a Goff Mek to be able to mix Clans in my army. There’s obviously the risk of shenanigans here (i.e. giving the “best” clan trait to any unit for their particular role), but you could get around this by saying you can only choose a Clan keyword for any unit if there’s also a boyz mob of that clan in the detachment (harking back to the way things worked in 1st ed).
If we get single-clan-only detachments, I hope we get a Lieutenant-equivalent boss, sitting somewhere between a Boss Nob and a Warboss.
What de exception? They get extra cp's for lots of patrols giving access to different houses/whatever with less tax but that isn't even that good when battallion forms core due to 5 cp. 3 patrols can't really compete with that de or not.
Also for orks not sure really needed. Boyz and grots give cheap troops and hq's aren't unreasonable prices likely so 2-3 battallion isn't that hard if codex doesn't nerf those to death(at which point bleargh and i'm out)
My issue with the HQs is that I don’t like the idea of being compelled to take multiple warbosses or incongruous odd boyz in order to mix Clans within an army. Hence the suggestion that one way to get round it would be a mid-level Boss character.
I think Nazrak started playing orks at a time when taking more than one warboss was unusual - the lore used to say only one warboss could lead an army, two would just fight until there is only one.
Then again with different clans different warbosses make sense. Are goffs going to listen deth skull warboss? Or are the two driving each other to greater feats by rivalry? "I'll show you dishonest blood axe weakling!"
Nazrak wrote: My issue with the HQs is that I don’t like the idea of being compelled to take multiple warbosses or incongruous odd boyz in order to mix Clans within an army. Hence the suggestion that one way to get round it would be a mid-level Boss character.
If, as appears possible, we are getting a new plastic warboss thats somewhat larger the idea of a "big boss" as a way to use the current models makes a lot of sense.
It also gets round the rule of three stuff as orks don't actually have that many generic HQ.
A grot HQ as well... (though possibly with a note they can only lead other grots)
leopard wrote: It also gets round the rule of three stuff as orks don't actually have that many generic HQ.
Yup. Mere 7.
indeed, but how many of them are actual units you would use? as opposed to space fillers?
Warboss is useful, Big Mek with the KFF is useful as is the Weirdboy
the rest?
The rest are just different variations of those three (well really 2 since the weirboy doesnt have other options). MA, Bike, SAG variants essentially.
Not to mention we dont have standalone models for any of these. The ones we do have are all metal/finecast and only available online (except grukk who you have to buy with a box of nobs). Painboy is listed as a HQ on the website but I believe is an elite and is our only blister pack available in store. Hes also the "HQ" for the SC box which makes no sense
This is one of the reasons im really excited to see what that big looking warboss model is and if we get a new Ghazzy sculpt
leopard wrote: It also gets round the rule of three stuff as orks don't actually have that many generic HQ.
Yup. Mere 7.
indeed, but how many of them are actual units you would use? as opposed to space fillers?
Warboss is useful, Big Mek with the KFF is useful as is the Weirdboy
the rest?
Bike variants aren't that bad. Besides warboss+KFF mek(with bike bigger aura area btw)+weirdboys btw are already 9. 3 more than you need for 3 battallions which is practically all you need. 2 of all 3 is hardly unreasonable. The mini warboss has hard time justifying itself there without some interesting aura effect that makes itself distinct from others.
Not to mention we dont have standalone models for any of these. The ones we do have are all metal/finecast and only available online (except grukk who you have to buy with a box of nobs). Painboy is listed as a HQ on the website but I believe is an elite and is our only blister pack available in store. Hes also the "HQ" for the SC box which makes no sense
When has that stopped orks? Half of my KFF's and weirdboys are made out of plastic boyz anyway. But yeah models would be nice. But rule wise there's more than enough for 7 battallions without taking SC's.
I see a distinct lack of typical ork pessimism so let me add mine
*Inhale*
Oh no new models I bet they hit on 5s with horribly overpriced guns and then still take the -1 to hit from moving and shoot heavy weapons which all their weapons are. They will be less durable and killy than dark eldar venoms all the while costing more. They won't get effected by clan tactics and have no good stratagems for them. All is lost. Might as well sell our orks on ebay oh wait we can't because nobody wants them because they are awful. Next thing I know GW is going to send goons to my house to beat me up and steal my lunch money then leave unplayable orks littered across my broken body. Woe is me.
*exhale/wheeze*
In all actuality though I absolutely am loving the new models so far. They look great
Billagio wrote: Dont worry, we will have your pessimism once we get actual rules leaks because we wont be on the surface as good as eldar, IG and DE put together.
If Orks are not super broken to the point where they are winning every single tournament 5-0 max points they will be garbage tier and literally unplayable. If the boy is not the most point efficient thing in existence (only slightly beating out every other option in the codex which are all tied for the #2 spot) we might as well burn our armies and post emo memes on facebook.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I see a distinct lack of typical ork pessimism so let me add mine
*Inhale*
Oh no new models I bet they hit on 5s with horribly overpriced guns and then still take the -1 to hit from moving and shoot heavy weapons which all their weapons are. They will be less durable and killy than dark eldar venoms all the while costing more. They won't get effected by clan tactics and have no good stratagems for them. All is lost. Might as well sell our orks on ebay oh wait we can't because nobody wants them because they are awful. Next thing I know GW is going to send goons to my house to beat me up and steal my lunch money then leave unplayable orks littered across my broken body. Woe is me.
*exhale/wheeze*
In all actuality though I absolutely am loving the new models so far. They look great
with care and the right government research grants we could develop this into four yorkshiremen
Billagio wrote: Dont worry, we will have your pessimism once we get actual rules leaks because we wont be on the surface as good as eldar, IG and DE put together.
If Orks are not super broken to the point where they are winning every single tournament 5-0 max points they will be garbage tier and literally unplayable. If the boy is not the most point efficient thing in existence (only slightly beating out every other option in the codex which are all tied for the #2 spot) we might as well burn our armies and post emo memes on facebook.
Billagio wrote: Dont worry, we will have your pessimism once we get actual rules leaks because we wont be on the surface as good as eldar, IG and DE put together.
If Orks are not super broken to the point where they are winning every single tournament 5-0 max points they will be garbage tier and literally unplayable. If the boy is not the most point efficient thing in existence (only slightly beating out every other option in the codex which are all tied for the #2 spot) we might as well burn our armies and post emo memes on facebook.
I'm just hoping for a codex that looks meh at first to pick up some sweet bargins on the bay of Eeeeee before an utterly broken combo is discovered that will be FAQd before I get the chance to try it
According to Kirioth (guy who did video in OP) someone sent him the names of the Kustom Boosta-Blasta and Shokkjump Dragster (or whatever they're called) in advance of the announcement from Warhammer Community.
The person also gave the name of 3 other vehicles that he believes are coming. Bring but also pray, because some of these sound incredible;
"Boom-Dakka Snazz Wagon"
"Mega Trakk Scrap jet"
and my personal favourite;
"Squig Buggies"(!!!!!)
I don't think any of those is the rumoured boss vehicle either. It just doesn't sound like any of them to me, unless it's an alternative build of course.
According to Kirioth (guy who did video in OP) someone sent him the names of the Kustom Boosta-Blasta and Shokkjump Dragster (or whatever they're called) in advance of the announcement from Warhammer Community.
The person also gave the name of 3 other vehicles that he believes are coming. Bring but also pray, because some of these sound incredible;
"Boom-Dakka Snazz Wagon"
"Mega Trakk Scrap jet"
and my personal favourite;
"Squig Buggies"(!!!!!)
I don't think any of those is the rumoured boss vehicle either. It just doesn't sound like any of them to me, unless it's an alternative build of course.
Speculate away!
It sounds like someone took random ork words and threw them all together for new vehicle names
According to Kirioth (guy who did video in OP) someone sent him the names of the Kustom Boosta-Blasta and Shokkjump Dragster (or whatever they're called) in advance of the announcement from Warhammer Community.
The person also gave the name of 3 other vehicles that he believes are coming. Bring but also pray, because some of these sound incredible;
"Boom-Dakka Snazz Wagon"
"Mega Trakk Scrap jet"
and my personal favourite;
"Squig Buggies"(!!!!!)
I don't think any of those is the rumoured boss vehicle either. It just doesn't sound like any of them to me, unless it's an alternative build of course.
Speculate away!
It sounds like someone took random ork words and threw them all together for new vehicle names
According to Kirioth (guy who did video in OP) someone sent him the names of the Kustom Boosta-Blasta and Shokkjump Dragster (or whatever they're called) in advance of the announcement from Warhammer Community.
The person also gave the name of 3 other vehicles that he believes are coming. Bring but also pray, because some of these sound incredible;
"Boom-Dakka Snazz Wagon"
"Mega Trakk Scrap jet"
and my personal favourite;
"Squig Buggies"(!!!!!)
I don't think any of those is the rumoured boss vehicle either. It just doesn't sound like any of them to me, unless it's an alternative build of course.
Speculate away!
Honestly if we get even a single one of these vehicles I won't be able to resist running a Mad Max style list with nothing but Battlewagons, Trukks, Bikers, Deffkoptas, the two new buggies, and (hopefully) one of those three.
In all seriousness though I doubt we're going to get any of those three there. Then again I doubted the Speed Freeks box set so who am I to judge?
Playing my Orkz yesterday (vs Orks too), I thought a pretty good (maybe cheesy) stratagem would be to let an entire Ork unit make a Heroic Intervention, when a friendly unit gets charged as the Ork boyz just wanna get into a fight.
It would be a foil to the T'au and their annoying overwatch, and seems damn fluffy.
"Boom-Dakka Snazz Wagon"
maybe a main battle tank. wagon often is associated with the battlewagon, and so i think this would be a real dakka version of that.
"Mega Trakk Scrap jet"
hmm, not really sure how this will look, maybe a tracked vehicle with a literal jet engine, maybe its that warboss looking guy in the shock jump background since it sorta looks like maybe a tracked vehicle...and if the boss is on it with a grappling claw (i think it looks like a metal cutters version of a claw) then he would want the best speed.
"Squig Buggies"
i suspect a type of warbuggy but pulled by bigger squigs, this could be a unit to help flesh out the snakebites faction.
geargutz wrote: "Boom-Dakka Snazz Wagon"
maybe a main battle tank. wagon often is associated with the battlewagon, and so i think this would be a real dakka version of that.
"Mega Trakk Scrap jet"
hmm, not really sure how this will look, maybe a tracked vehicle with a literal jet engine, maybe its that warboss looking guy in the shock jump background since it sorta looks like maybe a tracked vehicle...and if the boss is on it with a grappling claw (i think it looks like a metal cutters version of a claw) then he would want the best speed.
"Squig Buggies"
i suspect a type of warbuggy but pulled by bigger squigs, this could be a unit to help flesh out the snakebites faction.
I would actually imagine the jet to be an actual flyer, but extremely cheap so we could fill the skies with them.
Billagio wrote: tbh they all kinda sound like really overpriced shooting platforms, but thats what ive come to expect from most ork shooting.
Just trying keep our pessimism at appropriate levels.
While I appreciate the yang to our yin, I can actually see these new vehicles being the classic "paper-thin but expendable vehicles" our line is supposed to be known for. I tentatively predict they'll be around 60 points a pop with decent shooting (for orks) while the trukk will decrease in points to around 55 or so and keep its current stats. For some reason I really feel GW is trying to push a vehicle focus on orks, which I am 100% down with.
Late to the party as usual, but I just wanted to chime in about how excited I am for the new Ork line. Like genuinely excited about it in a way that GW has never paid off on before. The last codex/model release was okay (flashgitz, new trukk design, stormboyz yay, but boo! generic battlewagon design). Now it looks like Orks may become competitive fir the first time, have a true unique character on the tabletop (instead of being fighty and bad at literally everything else every other army is great at). These new models are the kind of fantastic that makes me want to build at least one of each straight out of the box instead of just buying them for conversion parts. I'm really looking forward to seeing more and for the first time, I'm actually saving money specifically for an Ork release. WAAAAAGH!
While I appreciate the yang to our yin, I can actually see these new vehicles being the classic "paper-thin but expendable vehicles" our line is supposed to be known for. I tentatively predict they'll be around 60 points a pop with decent shooting (for orks) while the trukk will decrease in points to around 55 or so and keep its current stats. For some reason I really feel GW is trying to push a vehicle focus on orks, which I am 100% down with.
i agree, by now hopefully GW noticed that only ork green tides are brought to tournaments (and hopefully playtester feedback has told them this as well).
GW will wantt the new ork vehicles to sell well, and (despite previous orks releases) generaly they give new vehicle units for other armies good rules to help sell them (i imagine GW is aware that many ork players who got hundreds of boys got them through 2nd hand and there is little use trying to give good rules for boys to increase the profit margin).
my brother plays deldar, and all his monstrous creatures (talos/kronos) got good points reductions which mad them actualy worth bringing in his lists becasue thay are tough and realtivly cheap and act as realy good distractions for the rest of his force. while all our dredds are hardly durable, if they become cheap enough then they can easily become a great frightening looking unit that acts as the distraction carnifex, and if your opponent ignores them then maybe they can get into combat for some damage.
tldr, GW is putting alot of effort into making us at least 4 new vehicle units, they will want to make their rules worth while to help sell product. (look at the facebook posts for the new buggies and pretty much any non ork player is already thinking of giving up some green to get some green, no way GW wont jump at this chance to incentivize getting more of that green if a bunch of players start collecting ork armies)
Nightlord1987 wrote: Playing my Orkz yesterday (vs Orks too), I thought a pretty good (maybe cheesy) stratagem would be to let an entire Ork unit make a Heroic Intervention, when a friendly unit gets charged as the Ork boyz just wanna get into a fight.
It would be a foil to the T'au and their annoying overwatch, and seems damn fluffy.
How would it foil Tau as they wouldnt' be charging you and ergo no HI?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
geargutz wrote: generaly they give new vehicle units for other armies good rules to help sell them
Oh please not this busted urban myth again. For every new unit that is broken one can bring out example of new units that were total garbage when they came. Tau flyers. DA flyer. Dino bots. Hell ogryns were bad when they were first released. Nevermind all the examples from ork.
Here's secret: GW doesn't deliberately make units too good/too weak. They just do what they think is cool. They aren't competent enough to make a good balanced game which makes them incompetent for actually doing what you suggest.
What they do for sales is shuffle up balances periodically so that meta changes but even that's fairly random.
That urban myth is like a whack'a'mole. No matter how many times it gets busted it comes back up again.
That urban myth is like a whack'a'mole. No matter how many times it gets busted it comes back up again.
those units you listed, how old are they? besides the last ork release and maybe the primaris marines what recent released stuff has had terible rules?
list of units with great rules when they were relased
guiliman
celestine
stormsurge
imp knight
new dakka knight
alot of the admek (most notibly the castelens)
cawl
mortarion and his deathguard
magnus
sisters of silence
custodes
genesteeler cults
sm centurians
now that isn't all of the recent models (but the stuff that was good when it came out and influenced the meta)
you only listed a few things from older releases. i am welcome to be proven wrong here, this isn't a hill for me to die on. im open to see if we can determine a pattern from GW to determine how the new ork models will do. based on what ive seen of the last releases of GW models i would suspect GW would want to keep with it.
geargutz wrote: "Boom-Dakka Snazz Wagon"
maybe a main battle tank. wagon often is associated with the battlewagon, and so i think this would be a real dakka version of that.
"Mega Trakk Scrap jet"
hmm, not really sure how this will look, maybe a tracked vehicle with a literal jet engine, maybe its that warboss looking guy in the shock jump background since it sorta looks like maybe a tracked vehicle...and if the boss is on it with a grappling claw (i think it looks like a metal cutters version of a claw) then he would want the best speed.
"Squig Buggies"
i suspect a type of warbuggy but pulled by bigger squigs, this could be a unit to help flesh out the snakebites faction.
The Snazz wagon needs to be a gunboat focused on the Freebootas I think. So hopefully it has some snazzguns strapped to it with Freebootas manning them.
I think it would be genius if the scrap jet was a plane of some sort with trakks slapped on to it (with no intention of allowing flight). I think it could be the boss trike too.
If squig buggies aren't vehicles driven by squigs GW has missed a trick. Maybe its our equivalent to thunder wolf cavalry at a push with Orks rising squigs into battle (with a few mods of course). Could be a squig powered buggy.
It would be a foil to the T'au and their annoying overwatch, and seems damn fluffy.
How would it foil Tau as they wouldnt' be charging you and ergo no HI?
Heroic Intervention still happens even if the Tau oppknent takes no charges. They always have a charge 'phase' and can't opt to skip it. It would work well as a foil to Tau overwatch shenanigans.
I hope the new vehicles are moderately priced in terms of points. They are big models and feel to me like they should be more than a 60pt investment (solely based in looks of course). I reckon 80 - 120 is perhaps where they should sit.
Heroic Intervention still happens even if the Tau oppknent takes no charges. They always have a charge 'phase' and can't opt to skip it. It would work well as a foil to Tau overwatch shenanigans.
Not when we are talking about new ability that would allow HI by entire army when you get charged...
Frankly army wide HI regardless of do you get charged or not would be silly to extreme.
Heroic Intervention still happens even if the Tau oppknent takes no charges. They always have a charge 'phase' and can't opt to skip it. It would work well as a foil to Tau overwatch shenanigans.
Not when we are talking about new ability that would allow HI by entire army when you get charged...
Frankly army wide HI regardless of do you get charged or not would be silly to extreme.
Ah I see your point, the suggested stratagem was only to work when one of your units gets charged.
I don't see an issue with a stratagem that would allow a singular unit the ability to HI once per turn. Seems incredibly fluffy to me.
Heroic Intervention still happens even if the Tau oppknent takes no charges. They always have a charge 'phase' and can't opt to skip it. It would work well as a foil to Tau overwatch shenanigans.
Not when we are talking about new ability that would allow HI by entire army when you get charged...
Frankly army wide HI regardless of do you get charged or not would be silly to extreme.
Ah I see your point, the suggested stratagem was only to work when one of your units gets charged.
I don't see an issue with a stratagem that would allow a singular unit the ability to HI once per turn. Seems incredibly fluffy to me.
Aaah I misread. I managed to read entire army. That's what tripped me. I had image of entire army doing HI. Without being charged and somehow being meaningful would be broken and in response to tau charging...well tau ain't really charging so not seeing how it would be foil to tau overwatch.
Still don't see how this would foil tau but yeah would be fun strategem and could see usage for it if not too expensive.
Aaah I misread. I managed to read entire army. That's what tripped me. I had image of entire army doing HI. Without being charged and somehow being meaningful would be broken and in response to tau charging...well tau ain't really charging so not seeing how it would be foil to tau overwatch.
Still don't see how this would foil tau but yeah would be fun strategem and could see usage for it if not too expensive.
Lol if it was the entire army it would be broken for sure!
If squig buggies aren't vehicles driven by squigs GW has missed a trick. Maybe its our equivalent to thunder wolf cavalry at a push with Orks rising squigs into battle (with a few mods of course). Could be a squig powered buggy.
squig powered, would be hilarious for a vehcile to have a hamster wheel full of hungry squigs chasing a snotling on stick.....i need this.
If squig buggies aren't vehicles driven by squigs GW has missed a trick. Maybe its our equivalent to thunder wolf cavalry at a push with Orks rising squigs into battle (with a few mods of course). Could be a squig powered buggy.
squig powered, would be hilarious for a vehcile to have a hamster wheel full of hungry squigs chasing a snotling on stick.....i need this.
Definitely.
I'm not sure if I prefer the idea of Squig driven though!
Vitali Advenil wrote: while all our dredds are hardly durable, if they become cheap enough then they can easily become a great frightening looking unit that acts as the distraction carnifex, and if your opponent ignores them then maybe they can get into combat for some damage.
We had a rather lengthy discussion about this in the "how to fix orks" thread, and there was a consensus that dreads need to become faster and/or more durable, not cheaper. Currently they are worth about 60-70, if at all. When you look at it from just the gaming aspect, you could do that, but from an economic view, you have yet another 180 point unit for 120€, blowing up the costs for playing orks even more.
We had a rather lengthy discussion about this in the "how to fix orks" thread, and there was a consensus that dreads need to become faster and/or more durable, not cheaper. Currently they are worth about 60-70, if at all. When you look at it from just the gaming aspect, you could do that, but from an economic view, you have yet another 180 point unit for 120€, blowing up the costs for playing orks even more.
you kinda misquoted there, but i no issue with that. but im not sure if the "consensus" was what you said it was, i made a case (in the same thread you were talking about) that maybe half off all our dredds might make them more playable and i didnt get backlash about it.
also, lets not try to kid ourselves, orks are a horde army.
my brother once told me (after i had been complaining about green tide being our only thing) that i should just give in and just accept that orks are a horde army...and i said "yes, i agree, its just i would like to bring a horde of walkers or a horde of buggies and trukks or a horde of flyers besides just boyz".
orks fluff wise are known for bringing cheaply made stuff that is cobbled together and hosted in mass to overwhelm the enemy. if we make the dredds we have into super durable and speedy vehicles then we are losing what makes orks orks. if we go to far and we will become an elite army like the custodes.
i dont expect a defdredd to got toe to toe with a dreadnought and win, i expect a dreadnought to fall under the weight of 3 deffdredds.
im not opposed to maybe adding an inch or 2 or adding an extra wound or 2 or even giving their weapons more damage (mork knows our dakka is not enough), or having strategems allow our vehicle to tellyport closer to the enemy,but lets not get carried away.
yes, cheaper pointed ork models will cause makeing a large ork army more expensive, GW has poor pricing strategies, but thats a little sacrifice we all have to bear if we want to play orks. if you didnt want to pay as much money to collect a "horde" army you would've chosen another faction, but i believe you love orks for what they are, the dangerous hooligans that will "flood" the galaxy in our waaaaaaaaaaagh
GW's power levels are all over the place. They are not consistent.
Some times they have clearly pointed things to encourage sales (we know this is why Wraithknights were comedically cheap in 7th). Other times they have not (see - well, Orks.)
What Ork players should hope for is a writer who cares about the army, has a clear idea of how they should be in the fluff, and then tries to put this across in the special rules.
This is then pointed at an efficient level.
The result is a book like DE or IG where almost every choice is characterful and efficient. The result is a codex with good internal balance and various different build possibilities (even if a few are going to be more optimal than the rest).
What you want to avoid is a Necron codex, where there is very little inspiration, and most units are just two stat lines (model+guns) with the army special rules on top. There is consequently relatively little flavour or synergy and the army kind of sucks.
It will be hard to make every Ork unit viable - but they managed with IG & DE. They could manage with Orks.
geargutz wrote: you kinda misquoted there, but i no issue with that. but im not sure if the "consensus" was what you said it was, i made a case (in the same thread you were talking about) that maybe half off all our dredds might make them more playable and i didnt get backlash about it.
also, lets not try to kid ourselves, orks are a horde army.
my brother once told me (after i had been complaining about green tide being our only thing) that i should just give in and just accept that orks are a horde army...and i said "yes, i agree, its just i would like to bring a horde of walkers or a horde of buggies and trukks or a horde of flyers besides just boyz".
orks fluff wise are known for bringing cheaply made stuff that is cobbled together and hosted in mass to overwhelm the enemy. if we make the dredds we have into super durable and speedy vehicles then we are losing what makes orks orks. if we go to far and we will become an elite army like the custodes.
i dont expect a defdredd to got toe to toe with a dreadnought and win, i expect a dreadnought to fall under the weight of 3 deffdredds.
This may be your head-canon, but all official sources portrait deff dreads as close combat monsters that easily compare to dreads.
See: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Deff_Dread (note that the description is pretty much copy&paste from an official GW book)
The unit you are describing is killa kanz, not deff dreads.
Same for about any other larger walker or vehicle. They are pet projects of the clan's mek or priced possessions of their warboss. Ork infantry and bikes are horde units. You will not find any fluff that will support hordes of deff dreads or battlewagons. Hordes of walkers, planes or battlewagons only happen in exceptionally large accumulations of orks, like on Armageddon or on Castorel Novem. In novels, a single ork dread or battlewagon usually is a massive problem to overcome for the imperial protagonists.
yes, cheaper pointed ork models will cause makeing a large ork army more expensive, GW has poor pricing strategies, but thats a little sacrifice we all have to bear if we want to play orks. if you didnt want to pay as much money to collect a "horde" army you would've chosen another faction, but i believe you love orks for what they are, the dangerous hooligans that will "flood" the galaxy in our waaaaaaaaaaagh
Three units of KMK, three units of MANz and three units of Dreads clock in at 1136€ for 1800 points. You can buy 2000 points of any two other horde army of your choice for that price.
Don't tell people to get rich or GTFO.
This may be your head-canon, but all official sources portrait deff dreads as close combat monsters that easily compare to dreads.
See: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Deff_Dread (note that the description is pretty much copy&paste from an official GW book)
The unit you are describing is killa kanz, not deff dreads.
Same for about any other larger walker or vehicle. They are pet projects of the clan's mek or priced possessions of their warboss. Ork infantry and bikes are horde units. You will not find any fluff that will support hordes of deff dreads or battlewagons. Hordes of walkers, planes or battlewagons only happen in exceptionally large accumulations of orks, like on Armageddon or on Castorel Novem. In novels, a single ork dread or battlewagon usually is a massive problem to overcome for the imperial protagonists.
Three units of KMK, three units of MANz and three units of Dreads clock in at 1136€ for 1800 points. You can buy 2000 points of any two other horde army of your choice for that price.
Don't tell people to get rich or GTFO.
ok, i might agree with you if there isnt literal fluff that supports large collections of about any ork vehicle. from dreadmobs to blitz brigades to bully boyz to bundles of gmorkanauts or hordes of dakkajets... i can go on and on. and its not an argument that these things "only happen in exceptionally large accumulations of orks".....so you mean that ork vehicles horde up when orks horde up.... .....your logic is undeniable.
that same dreadnought can easily shoot down 2 deffdredds as they run at it, and the 3rd will get in with those deadly claws.
i did not tell anyone to "GTFO", i said that we are here not because orks are cheap to start up, but that we love them for being what they are, witch is a horde army. if you really love something you will invest in it.
I mean, yes, we can all agree that the mek guns are absolutely ridonkulous from a money to points perspective. They might be the worst offenders in the game (no idea if that's true but it wouldn't shock me) For the reasons you stated Jidmah I'd really like the battlewagons to be better statwise, not cheaper. Maybe a few more wounds, extra damage/attacks/mortal wounds on the charge, more upgrades etc..
As for the other new rumoured vehicles, they all sound really exciting and the names are crazy sounding enough that they might be true. I'm almost (though not quite) going to be sad if they're all as cool as the new buggies since it might be hard to squeeze them all into a list haha.
Boom-Dakka Snazz Wagon
As an actual englishman pointed out, this sounds like a freeboota vehicle. So better shooting out of something sort of like a battlewagon maybe? But with less transport capacity, so sort of a killkannon upgrade on it as well.
Mega Trakk Scrap jet
I think this is just like a super wartrakk. Maybe the one the potential warboss is standing on? Although not sure if that is big enough to scream "mega"
Squig Buggies
All bets are off. Although DAMN YOU RULE OF THREE! .
Im down for having lots of dreads/walkers, buggies and other fast moving things, but I still want green tide to be a viable option. I love my boyz and still want them to be in integral part of an army if you want to take them.
That said some buffs to the gorkanaut would be nice
geargutz wrote: ok, i might agree with you if there isnt literal fluff that supports large collections of about any ork vehicle. from dreadmobs to blitz brigades to bully boyz to bundles of gmorkanauts or hordes of dakkajets... i can go on and on. and its not an argument that these things "only happen in exceptionally large accumulations of orks".....so you mean that ork vehicles horde up when orks horde up.... .....your logic is undeniable.
All the things you mentioned are not common to orks across the galaxy but only found in Thrakka's Great Waaagh - which is the single largest Waaagh! in history since the War of the Beast and most of those formations have sprung from Thrakka's tactics. This is why they were only available for that specific book - mind blowing, right? Which means, outside of the The Great Waaagh!, none of these exist - with the exception of Dread Mobs, which also have been seen on Castorel Novem (aka Mekkslag Iks) - where the Waaagh! has become so big that an entire populations of Orks is just hanging around on multiple planets of a system, doing nothing but looting and building stuff.
Maybe you should read the fluff in the book with the rules you misunderstood as fluff before feeling qualified to judge someone's logic.
that same dreadnought can easily shoot down 2 deffdredds as they run at it, and the 3rd will get in with those deadly claws.
Rules are not fluff. I just quoted the official fluff to you, just because the rules don't match up doesn't make it less true. Ork Dreads should be able to be an equal to Space Marine dreads.
i did not tell anyone to "GTFO", i said that we are here not because orks are cheap to start up, but that we love them for being what they are, witch is a horde army. if you really love something you will invest in it.
Paying $150 (plus paints) for a 180 point unit is not normal, in any army. An average ork army would cost 2000€, I'm not sure even a sisters army is that expensive right now.
Saying "this is how it should be" is nothing but elitism and basically telling people with less disposable cash to GTFO, no matter if they like orks or not.
Orks have never been an expensive army to start up, quite the opposite. This massive increase in $/points has not existed before 7th edition's codex and supplement.
So I know we keep hearing and talking about primorks so it may essentially be confirmed at this point. However I'd like to point out a story that I believe was in the 5th edition codex. It was in the Mad Dok Grotsnik entry. It was talking about how he was working on stitching together some gargantuan ork project. Perhaps this is there segway to the primork release? I would quote the paragraph but it may take me a bit to find it.
"It is even rumoured that he is building his own composite super-Ork out of organs and body parts 'donated' by his customers."
This could also fit into the stitching GW hinted photo.
So I'm not sure what to think here. I love the new buggies to death but if they don't put some rule in the codex to overcome the minus to hit rules then why even give Ork models guns in the first place as they are all virtually useless?
Mr.Church13 wrote: So I'm not sure what to think here. I love the new buggies to death but if they don't put some rule in the codex to overcome the minus to hit rules then why even give Ork models guns in the first place as they are all virtually useless?
would it be game breaking for certain weapons that aren't flamers to be auto hit within a certain range?
Mr.Church13 wrote: So I'm not sure what to think here. I love the new buggies to death but if they don't put some rule in the codex to overcome the minus to hit rules then why even give Ork models guns in the first place as they are all virtually useless?
would it be game breaking for certain weapons that aren't flamers to be auto hit within a certain range?
Hopefully we get 6s always hitting and enough shots to compensate for our awful BS.
I suspect the Dragster will have BS4 since the gun looks to be fired by a Grot/Squig.
Mr.Church13 wrote: So I'm not sure what to think here. I love the new buggies to death but if they don't put some rule in the codex to overcome the minus to hit rules then why even give Ork models guns in the first place as they are all virtually useless?
would it be game breaking for certain weapons that aren't flamers to be auto hit within a certain range?
Hopefully we get 6s always hitting and enough shots to compensate for our awful BS.
I suspect the Dragster will have BS4 since the gun looks to be fired by a Grot/Squig.
Personally I'd push for 5s always hit or have the 5s always hit tied to a clan tactic. I mean sure 6s always hit is not useless, but it's pretty darn close to it.
Meh, there has been a lot of maths and crap going around and even with 6s to always hit it honestly doesn't do a massive amount to benefit anyone. Most armies only have 1 unit that would ever be affected. IG would have to come across -2 or 3 before the rule comes into affect. Orks are basically the only faction that a simple -1to hit will cut almost 80+% (random geuss) of our units shooting in half (and make our heavy weapons units with a 6+save a pain to use and a waste of points as it turns them into expensive turrets that hitnon 6+). And againl even with 6+ to always hit it would do almost nothing on avarage for most players... it's more of a quality of life thing in case you're a loota army that comes against Raven Guard or something.
If you are hitting on 6s in my view you need 6 shots to to 'reliably" get one hit. So even if you do get a super cool gun on the new models if they move and hit on a 6 you are going to need 6 shots to maybe reliably get 1 hit and even then you still have to wound and get through their save. Ork shooting needs MASSIVE volume at 6s to hit to be worth ANYTHING or to always hit on a 5. Balancing the points at always hitting on a 5 would be a lot easier that way. Otherwise ork shooting is still worthless because it would be an auto lose against a -1 to hit army or unit. Once you give them always hit on a 5+ though you are now looking at an interesting counter pick to negative hit modifiers that helps the army stand out and be interesting.It also massively fits the orks in how they were not really aiming anyways.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: If you are hitting on 6s in my view you need 6 shots to to 'reliably" get one hit. So even if you do get a super cool gun on the new models if they move and hit on a 6 you are going to need 6 shots to maybe reliably get 1 hit and even then you still have to wound and get through their save. Ork shooting needs MASSIVE volume at 6s to hit to be worth ANYTHING or to always hit on a 5. Balancing the points at always hitting on a 5 would be a lot easier that way. Otherwise ork shooting is still worthless because it would be an auto lose against a -1 to hit army or unit. Once you give them always hit on a 5+ though you are now looking at an interesting counter pick to negative hit modifiers that helps the army stand out and be interesting.It also massively fits the orks in how they were not really aiming anyways.
Wasn't there that rumour of 6s always hit and we get army-wide, always on "dakka dakka dakka" stratagem which I'm assuming means 6s to hit generate extra shots?
Tibs Ironblood wrote: If you are hitting on 6s in my view you need 6 shots to to 'reliably" get one hit. So even if you do get a super cool gun on the new models if they move and hit on a 6 you are going to need 6 shots to maybe reliably get 1 hit and even then you still have to wound and get through their save. Ork shooting needs MASSIVE volume at 6s to hit to be worth ANYTHING or to always hit on a 5. Balancing the points at always hitting on a 5 would be a lot easier that way. Otherwise ork shooting is still worthless because it would be an auto lose against a -1 to hit army or unit. Once you give them always hit on a 5+ though you are now looking at an interesting counter pick to negative hit modifiers that helps the army stand out and be interesting.It also massively fits the orks in how they were not really aiming anyways.
Wasn't there that rumour of 6s always hit and we get army-wide, always on "dakka dakka dakka" stratagem which I'm assuming means 6s to hit generate extra shots?
Might be a suitable compromise?
Great now when you actually roll a 6 you get another 1/6 chance to hit meaning to reliable get off that that extra hit you need 6 extra hits meaning you needed to roll six sixes. Also make sure that stratagem is unmodified rolls of six or it's never going to work against negative to hit modifier armies. I wouldn't actually know anything about that rumor and even if it were true I'd find that disappointing. Now if we combine always hit on 5s and 6s are extra shots (or the 6s auto hit) I'd be impressed.
All the things you mentioned are not common to orks across the galaxy but only found in Thrakka's Great Waaagh - which is the single largest Waaagh! in history since the War of the Beast and most of those formations have sprung from Thrakka's tactics. This is why they were only available for that specific book - mind blowing, right? Which means, outside of the The Great Waaagh!, none of these exist - with the exception of Dread Mobs, which also have been seen on Castorel Novem (aka Mekkslag Iks) - where the Waaagh! has become so big that an entire populations of Orks is just hanging around on multiple planets of a system, doing nothing but looting and building stuff.
Maybe you should read the fluff in the book with the rules you misunderstood as fluff before feeling qualified to judge someone's logic.
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I'm at work and on a phone, I'll try to keep this short.
Ahem....just because it's rare in the fluff doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. At this point your basically saying that I shouldn't run dreddmob because it's only supported in 2 official gw books.
Let's just say your argument is invalid. The fluff is there, its supported, I can play it, why are you trying to argue against that? What's is even the point of us arguing about this anymore?
1st you try to argue to against fluff that it isn't as fluffy as other fluff? It's still in the fluff, it doesn't stop existing or become irelavent just because it disproves your argument.
2nd, you try to argue that I'm being elitist because I say we need to pay alot for orks? We are a horde army....how many orks do you have, I highly doubt you've paid little and only have around only 20 models (unless you only have a killteam). This can be said for tyranids and imp guard as well, the only exception is if we only bought the superheavies.
blaktoof wrote: One way to represent shooting more shots and having a better chance to hit is to up their BS...
So the answer is to rob them of their identity and make them play like every other shooty army instead of giving them something unique and flavorful for them.
blaktoof wrote: One way to represent shooting more shots and having a better chance to hit is to up their BS...
So the answer is to rob them of their identity and make them play like every other shooty army instead of giving them something unique and flavorful for them.
I don't think it would be that crazy to say "we decided to experiment over multiple editions with Orks at 5+ BS and you know what, its resulted in them being bottom tier from about 5th edition (because we consistently buffed shooting over assault)."
But I don't think its going to happen.
Really hoping for always hit on 5s. Have no confidence it will happen.
blaktoof wrote: One way to represent shooting more shots and having a better chance to hit is to up their BS...
So the answer is to rob them of their identity and make them play like every other shooty army instead of giving them something unique and flavorful for them.
I don't think it would be that crazy to say "we decided to experiment over multiple editions with Orks at 5+ BS and you know what, its resulted in them being bottom tier from about 5th edition (because we consistently buffed shooting over assault)."
But I don't think its going to happen.
Really hoping for always hit on 5s. Have no confidence it will happen.
I'm still holding out hope for our shooty units getting the dakkajet's "Dakka Dakka Dakka" special rule where if every weapon fires on a single target it gets +1 to hit. Doesn't directly buff our BS but it gives us a chance to actually kill things in the shooting phase.
blaktoof wrote: One way to represent shooting more shots and having a better chance to hit is to up their BS...
So the answer is to rob them of their identity and make them play like every other shooty army instead of giving them something unique and flavorful for them.
There were multiple editions where Orks were BS4+.
Upping BS to come to an average number of successful rolls instead of having the player roll more dice comes to the same outcome.
A player having to roll 60 dice to get 10 successes versus a player having to roll 30 dice to get 10 successes is an effect on the player not the character of the background for the toy soldiers.
Not sure how you think that robs them of anything, unless you think being unable to hit certain factions at all if you move/advance, and some units of those factions are unhittable even if you remain stationary is the basis of flavorful or uniqueness.
Since you don't like that simple elegant fix, here is one. For every 5 models in an Ork unit targeting an unit with the same weapon they fire an additional d3 shots with that weapon, for each roll of 1 the shot is instead resolved against the shooting unit. These additional shots always hit
I like the idea of ALWAYS hitting on 5s and 6s give us a bonus shot. To put that in perspective. Our drastically over priced Lootas right now with 30 shots get 10 hits. With this new idea they would get 11-12 hits. Not game breaking but at least it gives them a bit more damage overall, team that up with a price reduction or an increase in their ROF and suddenly lootas are viable again.
Sounds like GW is gonna push this kult of speed angle with flashy new kits that everyone will need to keep their orks 'competitive' by making the board even smaller first turn. Why not just start placing units in base to base contact... err, wait, maybe they are saving that for 9th edition. Then, we can get 3000pts on a MtG table and finish the game in 15minutes, just what everyone has been wanting right? Shorter games, smaller tables, more models to play with - yeay!
jeff white wrote: Sounds like GW is gonna push this kult of speed angle with flashy new kits that everyone will need to keep their orks 'competitive' by making the board even smaller first turn. Why not just start placing units in base to base contact... err, wait, maybe they are saving that for 9th edition. Then, we can get 3000pts on a MtG table and finish the game in 15minutes, just what everyone has been wanting right? Shorter games, smaller tables, more models to play with - yeay!
For a lot of armies they started 9" away with most of their units for most of 8th so far...
blaktoof wrote: One way to represent shooting more shots and having a better chance to hit is to up their BS...
So the answer is to rob them of their identity and make them play like every other shooty army instead of giving them something unique and flavorful for them.
So points inefficiency is unique and flavorful? If that's what passes for flavor then I'll take the bland IG 4+.
Eonfuzz wrote: Did no one watch the youtube video posted earlier?
The rumor is orks now always hit on 6+ and there is now an army wide "Dakka Dakka Dakka", also known as "Bolter Drill".
I honestly think that's a pretty elegant solution by GW (If true)
Im assuming with those extra genterated attacks on 6s I still have to roll to hit with them on 5s...which is much less impressive. Only 1/3rd of your extra attacks will actually hit, and those are only going to occur 1/6th of the time to begin with....
Eonfuzz wrote: Did no one watch the youtube video posted earlier?
The rumor is orks now always hit on 6+ and there is now an army wide "Dakka Dakka Dakka", also known as "Bolter Drill".
I honestly think that's a pretty elegant solution by GW (If true)
Im assuming with those extra genterated attacks on 6s I still have to roll to hit with them on 5s...which is much less impressive. Only 1/3rd of your extra attacks will actually hit, and those are only going to occur 1/6th of the time to begin with....
Don't forget that we'll also be able to reroll 1's to hit for < BADMOONS > units.
As it stands Dakka Dakka Dakka is great for Tank bustas because they reroll those 1's.
There's also the Freebootaz trait that seems to be a bit too good, but if true will have massive synergy with Dakka.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Does anyone else remember a post on here a while back saying something about a cad file or something called a 'squigataur' or something?
I believe the gist of the post was that a couple years back some cad files were leaked, and all of them have made it into production with the exception of the squigataur.
If army wide dakka dakka was that a natural 6 always hits and generates an extra hit, then it'd be okay-ish, I think. If it generates an extra shot, then it's more dice rolling for almost no outcome, which is lame. But honestly, I don't think it would be too OP for entire squad shooting all of it's guns at the same target to get +1BS(or reroll amount of shots in case of autohitting weapons) given our lack of AP.
Also just cutting prices on everything won't work for all units. Don't forget about the rule of 3. I'm hoping for decent special rules and stat boosts.
If wer're always hitting on unmodified rolls of 6 and that 6 also generates another hit (not shot), I'd be cool with that. It's probably not enough to make ork shooting good, but I doubt we get anything better than that.
I don't really want more shots, or at least for that to be the sole solution, considering how many dice we already roll for so few hits.
Giving orks a blanket 4+ BS at this point would just be lazy and uninspired. Them getting something more flavorful like BS5+ that is not subject to negative to hit penalties would be a great deviation from the norm. Now you want to advance and fire your shootas because why not? Now you don't mind about shooting up at the sky trying to hit a flyer because you weren't really aiming anyways. Always hitting on 5s and getting extra shots on 6s is a MUCH, MUCH better way to handle ork shooting than just buffing one specific number.
Giving orks a blanket 4+ BS at this point would just be lazy and uninspired. Them getting something more flavorful like BS5+ that is not subject to negative to hit penalties would be a great deviation from the norm. Now you want to advance and fire your shootas because why not? Now you don't mind about shooting up at the sky trying to hit a flyer because you weren't really aiming anyways. Always hitting on 5s and getting extra shots on 6s is a MUCH, MUCH better way to handle ork shooting than just buffing one specific number.
ill agree wiith this. not having to worry about negative modifiers sounds sweet while not makeing us just a blanket 4+. though i thinks its more realistic that we would get a "always hit on 6s" rule from GW.
Always hittting on 5's is what I'd really want. Hopefully we get that or some close approximation to it.
In regards to extra hits on unmodified 6's, isn't that statistically the same thing? With the exception of potentially better single shot weapons. And of course whether that ability works in overwatch as well or not.
yeah if dakka dakka rule is an extra shot on a 6 then assuming full bs (hitting on 5s) thats and whopping extra 5.5% number of hits so basically extra rolling for no real benefit. Maybe there will be some synergy with traits. But i feel the last thing orks need is to make our turns longer.
Eonfuzz wrote: Did no one watch the youtube video posted earlier?
The rumor is orks now always hit on 6+ and there is now an army wide "Dakka Dakka Dakka", also known as "Bolter Drill".
I honestly think that's a pretty elegant solution by GW (If true)
....except it wouldn't do nearly enough to justify our plethora of shooting options. Dakka Dakka Dakka is a garbage strat anyway. you have a 1/6th chance to roll a 6, now you get a 1/3rd chance to hit, so your chances of pulling this off is 5.55%. Army wide? for Free? that is fine, just don't expect it to do anything to your damage output. 30 Loota shots at a T7 vehicle = 10 hits with 5 rerolls on average, those 5 rerolls = 1.66 more hits so now instead of 5 wounds on average you get 5.8 Whooopee!
That btw, is why I always said Dakka Dakka Dakka strategy was a waste of command points.
Like others here have said, if it is a unmodified 6 always hits AND generates 1 Extra hit that would be ok, but otherwise its just a waste of time rolling more dice for a minimal impact to the game.
Do you guys not roll enough dice already? Why are people suggesting a really bad 'fix' like army wide DakkaDakkaDakka, so that you have to count and faff with even more re-rolls!
I think best suggestion so far has been always hitting on 5+. Especially for basic Shoota Boyz, but I'm really not convinced GW would do this.
Primary role shooting units like Flash Gits and Lootas probably need a few individual changes. Flash gits are already BS4+ but desperately need better armour so they don't get sneezed off the table. Even with say 4+ armour save their weapon profile probably still needs a buff. Lootas are in a similar boat, but not quite so exaggerated. If they were Heavy 3 (notD3) they'd be a slightly more attractive consideration. But probably also need something like 'always hit on 5+' or BS4+ to bring them in line with other factions options.
geargutz wrote: Let's just say your argument is invalid. The fluff is there, its supported, I can play it, why are you trying to argue against that? What's is even the point of us arguing about this anymore?
Your argument was that to quote "[you] dont expect a defdredd to got toe to toe with a dreadnought and win, [you] expect a dreadnought to fall under the weight of 3 deffdredds." I provided the you with the official background on deff dreads to show you that your idea of what deff dreads are doesn't match up with it. A deff dread should indeed be a fair match for a space marine dreadnought.
You are not arguing, you are just constantly being rude because I disagree with your ideas.
1st you try to argue to against fluff that it isn't as fluffy as other fluff? It's still in the fluff, it doesn't stop existing or become irelavent just because it disproves your argument.
ok, i might agree with you if there isnt literal fluff that supports large collections of about any ork vehicle. from dreadmobs to blitz brigades to bully boyz to bundles of gmorkanauts or hordes of dakkajets... i can go on and on. and its not an argument that these things "only happen in exceptionally large accumulations of orks".....so you mean that ork vehicles horde up when orks horde up.... .....your logic is undeniable.
My argument:
Jidmah wrote:Same for about any other larger walker or vehicle. They are pet projects of the clan's mek or priced possessions of their warboss. Ork infantry and bikes are horde units. You will not find any fluff that will support hordes of deff dreads or battlewagons. Hordes of walkers, planes or battlewagons only happen in exceptionally large accumulations of orks, like on Armageddon or on Castorel Novem. In novels, a single ork dread or battlewagon usually is a massive problem to overcome for the imperial protagonists.
How about arguing the actual argument instead of being rude? So far you have provided zero proof for your claims.
The argument is that the vast majority of orks in the galaxy do not have the numbers to field as many vehicles as the Great Waaagh! does. Exactly like the vast majority of Tau are not lead by Commander Farsight and have not given etherals the boot. Exactly like the vast majority of the Imperial Guard are not from Cadia. Therefore, orks, in general, do not have hordes of vehicles.
As for "fluff" supports this: Dreadmob: 15 models, 13 of those are vehicle. About as much a horde as half a mob of orks. Considering this formation is most of your army (IIRC ~1600 points) it's a dreadMOB not a dreadHORDE or even a dreadTIDE. Blitz brigade: 5 vehicles. Maybe transports for a horde, though not a horde themselves. Note that the difference between this formation and regular ork armies was being able to take one(!) additional battlewagon. Bully boyz: 15-30 models. At 30 models, this formation would have been more expensive than my 3500 point Death Guard army. Bully boyz are not a vehicle unit though, so it's questionably why you brought it up in the first place. Bad Moon Deff Wing has been part of the fluff for a long time. Gorkanaut Krushin' Krew: 3 walkers. Next you are going to tell me that two stompas are a horde Skyboss Wingnutz' Sky Armada: 5 planes and a rule that implies that they are actually way more planes. So I guess you could count this as a horde of planes from a fluff view, but on the tabletop it's still not.
So all these formations that aren't actually hordes. So even looking at orks your way, you are wrong about vehicle hordes. There is no support for deff dreads outnumbering space marine dreads 3:1 except the terribly balanced rules of 7th edition orks.
Thing is, you should still have the ability to take nine deff dreads to fulfill your vision of a dread horde. Making deff dreads a horde unit would mean that you would have to play that many deff dreads (at $50 per models) in order to have them do anything, while the odd 1-3 deff dreads everyone has would be as useless as a unit of five boyz.
2nd, you try to argue that I'm being elitist because I say we need to pay alot for orks? We are a horde army....how many orks do you have, I highly doubt you've paid little and only have around only 20 models (unless you only have a killteam). This can be said for tyranids and imp guard as well, the only exception is if we only bought the superheavies.
180 points of brand new ork boyz cost about $90 (less considering nob wargear), 180 points of gaunts cost $120, 180 points of guardsmen cost $135. Tyranid monstrous creatures and elite units like hive guard and warriors are not horde units. Imperial tanks, artillery, fliers and elite units like ogryns or ratlings are not horde units either. There is no reason to believe that ork vehicles outside of (current) buggies, trukk or kanz are horde units either.
My 5th edition 2000 point tournament list had 109 models, including transports. It was slightly more expensive than a pure green tide army and a lot less expensive than the vehicle hordes you are suggesting and yet was only one wagon short of a blitz brigade. Go figure.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jeff white wrote: Sounds like GW is gonna push this kult of speed angle with flashy new kits that everyone will need to keep their orks 'competitive' by making the board even smaller first turn. Why not just start placing units in base to base contact... err, wait, maybe they are saving that for 9th edition. Then, we can get 3000pts on a MtG table and finish the game in 15minutes, just what everyone has been wanting right? Shorter games, smaller tables, more models to play with - yeay!
There is one deployment in the Eternal War cards deck that has both deployment zones touching each other. Some of the most fun games I've had so far.
In general, the reduced no-mans land of those cards have made games lot more fun. Maybe 18" between deployment zones should become the norm to help out assault armies.
crzylgs wrote: Do you guys not roll enough dice already? Why are people suggesting a really bad 'fix' like army wide DakkaDakkaDakka, so that you have to count and faff with even more re-rolls!
One reason why I don't hope massive price drops at least for infantry or rerolls. And why I loath FNP. I avoid painboy just to save on dice rolls.
Jidmah wrote: I think Nazrak started playing orks at a time when taking more than one warboss was unusual - the lore used to say only one warboss could lead an army, two would just fight until there is only one.
Haha, yep, rumbled!
Not generally a big fan of duplicate HQs across the board, tbh.
I keep seeing grumbles about Ork shooting come up, but in my view, our shooting stuff’s mostly fine as is, rules-wise, it’s just that we’re paying way more points for most of it that BS 5+ warrants. Drastically drop the points on our ranged options, and suddenly it becomes a viable alternative to just plugging those points into more basic boyz. Case in point: we currently pay only one point less for a deffgun than Guard pay for an autocannon (statistically, the D3 shots evens out at 2, so I think it’s fair to say they’re functionally equivalent), despite Guard being a minimum of 50% better at shooting than us.
Eonfuzz wrote: Did no one watch the youtube video posted earlier?
The rumor is orks now always hit on 6+ and there is now an army wide "Dakka Dakka Dakka", also known as "Bolter Drill".
I honestly think that's a pretty elegant solution by GW (If true)
Im assuming with those extra genterated attacks on 6s I still have to roll to hit with them on 5s...which is much less impressive. Only 1/3rd of your extra attacks will actually hit, and those are only going to occur 1/6th of the time to begin with....
Don't forget that we'll also be able to reroll 1's to hit for < BADMOONS > units. As it stands Dakka Dakka Dakka is great for Tank bustas because they reroll those 1's.
There's also the Freebootaz trait that seems to be a bit too good, but if true will have massive synergy with Dakka.
Thing is, re-rolling ones is worse the lower your BS is, same for the additional shots. A single shot a 5+ has a 33.3% chance to hit, with a 16.6% chance to re-roll a failed miss, which then hits on 33.33% again, for a total of 38.88% chance to hit. So, you gained 5.55% hits. Half of those hits generate an additional shot, which then has another 38.88% chance to hit, for a grand total of 7.5% additional hits. In total, both rules combined turn 46.45% of your shots into hits.
You are basically rolling a ton of dice to have something inferior to BS4+ (50%) or re-roll failed hits (55.55%).
How about if you take a penalty on your hit roll, you also get +1 to it? That way we still get affected by penalties, but only if the total is -2 or worse. So if you're facing raven guard, you get a penalty if you are advancing and firing assault weapons or moving and firing heavy ones. If your opponent has a -1 to hit them trait and the airborne rule, you have a penalty to shoot them.
Someone on the other thread suggested ignoring -1 to hit modifiers, but be fully affected by -2 to hit, similar to certain units ignoring -1 AP weapons, but being fully affected by higher AP values.
This would not completely negate -1 to hit armies, units or models with stacked modifiers would still be immune to shooting and you could no longer move/advance and shoot them with heavy/assault weapons..
@ everyone talking about deff dreads and lore crap... a freaking Titan can be mathematically be taken down by equal number of conscripts or guard or orks... when in thenlore they would level entire armies and cities. In the lore a single space marine could take out 100 orks... in the lore an entire space marine chapter can get a sturn look from a necron and they all fall over... the lore is widely all over the place anyway and the game certainly does not support the lore in many ways.
So the lore argument is an auto lose for bkth sides (although I wish it wasn't and i wish the game was lore accurate).
Jidmah wrote: Thing is, re-rolling ones is worse the lower your BS is, same for the additional shots. A single shot a 5+ has a 33.3% chance to hit, with a 16.6% chance to re-roll a failed miss, which then hits on 33.33% again, for a total of 38.88% chance to hit. So, you gained 5.55% hits. Half of those hits generate an additional shot, which then has another 38.88% chance to hit, for a grand total of 7.5% additional hits. In total, both rules combined turn 46.45% of your shots into hits.
You are basically rolling a ton of dice to have something inferior to BS4+ (50%) or re-roll failed hits (55.55%).
Re-rolling 1s provides the same proportional increase regardless of your BS.
BS5+ is 0.33 hits normally, 0.39 with re-rolling 1s, for an increase of 17%.
BS3+ is 0.67 hits normally, 0.78 with re-rolling 1s, for an increase of 17%.
If they can make up for the lower accuracy with volume of fire, then those abilities are just as worth it as they would be for a model/unit with better BS.
Eonfuzz wrote: Did no one watch the youtube video posted earlier?
The rumor is orks now always hit on 6+ and there is now an army wide "Dakka Dakka Dakka", also known as "Bolter Drill".
I honestly think that's a pretty elegant solution by GW (If true)
....except it wouldn't do nearly enough to justify our plethora of shooting options. Dakka Dakka Dakka is a garbage strat anyway. you have a 1/6th chance to roll a 6, now you get a 1/3rd chance to hit, so your chances of pulling this off is 5.55%. Army wide? for Free? that is fine, just don't expect it to do anything to your damage output. 30 Loota shots at a T7 vehicle = 10 hits with 5 rerolls on average, those 5 rerolls = 1.66 more hits so now instead of 5 wounds on average you get 5.8 Whooopee!
That btw, is why I always said Dakka Dakka Dakka strategy was a waste of command points.
Like others here have said, if it is a unmodified 6 always hits AND generates 1 Extra hit that would be ok, but otherwise its just a waste of time rolling more dice for a minimal impact to the game.
Agreed, its a waste of CP if its extra shots, not hits. Army wide for "free" would be ok. I put "free" in quotes because GW will likely price that into units (rather than it being worth CP or an extra upgrade/wargear that you have to pay for) so then its not really "free" and GW usually does a pretty poor job at estimating the effectiveness to points value of something like that.
Jidmah wrote: Thing is, re-rolling ones is worse the lower your BS is, same for the additional shots. A single shot a 5+ has a 33.3% chance to hit, with a 16.6% chance to re-roll a failed miss, which then hits on 33.33% again, for a total of 38.88% chance to hit. So, you gained 5.55% hits. Half of those hits generate an additional shot, which then has another 38.88% chance to hit, for a grand total of 7.5% additional hits. In total, both rules combined turn 46.45% of your shots into hits.
You are basically rolling a ton of dice to have something inferior to BS4+ (50%) or re-roll failed hits (55.55%).
Re-rolling 1s provides the same proportional increase regardless of your BS.
BS5+ is 0.33 hits normally, 0.39 with re-rolling 1s, for an increase of 17%.
BS3+ is 0.67 hits normally, 0.78 with re-rolling 1s, for an increase of 17%.
If they can make up for the lower accuracy with volume of fire, then those abilities are just as worth it as they would be for a model/unit with better BS.
I know, and the rules for additional shots basically work the same. Yet, a space marines with both rules would have a 90.7% hit rate, which is better than +1 BS (83.3%) and re-roll to hit (88.8%), while an ork is better off with the +1 to hit or the re-roll.
Something that just occurred to me: I've sort of had this assumption that the fact that ork units have the same stats in Kill Team as they do in the index doesn't necessarily mean all that much because they might not want to spoil whatever the upcoming changes would be. So the fact that the burna is still d3 shots didn't bother me that much. However with the kill team set Krogskullz Boyz you get some additional stratagems. One of them is Pyromaniak which switches the burnas shots from D3 to D6 during that phase.
So if they were to upgrade burnas from D3 to D6 in the ork codex that stratagem would be completely invalidated, which I doubt they would. That leaves, in my mind three different scenarios on their approach with burnas:
1, They do nothing
2, They lower the point cost of burnas
3, They switch the burna profile from D3 S4 AP0 D1 to D3 S5 AP-1 D! (meaning D3 skorchas)
Thoughts? Do you think there's a chance they'll become D6 and they just tell players to forget about that stratagem? Or that they'll have different profiles in 40k and KT?
PiñaColada wrote: Something that just occurred to me: I've sort of had this assumption that the fact that ork units have the same stats in Kill Team as they do in the index doesn't necessarily mean all that much because they might not want to spoil whatever the upcoming changes would be. So the fact that the burna is still d3 shots didn't bother me that much. However with the kill team set Krogskullz Boyz you get some additional stratagems. One of them is Pyromaniak which switches the burnas shots from D3 to D6 during that phase.
So if they were to upgrade burnas from D3 to D6 in the ork codex that stratagem would be completely invalidated, which I doubt they would. That leaves, in my mind three different scenarios on their approach with burnas:
1, They do nothing
2, They lower the point cost of burnas
3, They switch the burna profile from D3 S4 AP0 D1 to D3 S5 AP-1 D! (meaning D3 skorchas)
Thoughts? Do you think there's a chance they'll become D6 and they just tell players to forget about that stratagem? Or that they'll have different profiles in 40k and KT?
Kill Team is a completely different rule-set, so there's nothing saying they have to use the same weapon profiles, stratagems or anything in 40k. That said, I doubt that burnas are going to change. Probably just drop the cost of burna boyz.
So if they were to upgrade burnas from D3 to D6 in the ork codex that stratagem would be completely invalidated, which I doubt they would. That leaves, in my mind three different scenarios on their approach with burnas:
?
Why strategem would be invalidated? 40k orks can't use and if burna changes in codex it leaves kt stats as they were
Well, that's sort of my point. If they did update 40k burnas to d6 would KT burnas still be d3? That's a pretty significant difference and as far as I know there are very few instances of different stats regarding the weapon profiles between 40k and KT. (Aside from point cost)
PiñaColada wrote: Well, that's sort of my point. If they did update 40k burnas to d6 would KT burnas still be d3? That's a pretty significant difference and as far as I know there are very few instances of different stats regarding the weapon profiles between 40k and KT. (Aside from point cost)
Forgebane necron stats were invalid once codex came out. If the Ork codex changes the stats from kt, kt could faq it or they could just be divergent rules
Jidmah wrote: Thing is, re-rolling ones is worse the lower your BS is, same for the additional shots. A single shot a 5+ has a 33.3% chance to hit, with a 16.6% chance to re-roll a failed miss, which then hits on 33.33% again, for a total of 38.88% chance to hit. So, you gained 5.55% hits. Half of those hits generate an additional shot, which then has another 38.88% chance to hit, for a grand total of 7.5% additional hits. In total, both rules combined turn 46.45% of your shots into hits.
You are basically rolling a ton of dice to have something inferior to BS4+ (50%) or re-roll failed hits (55.55%).
Re-rolling 1s provides the same proportional increase regardless of your BS.
BS5+ is 0.33 hits normally, 0.39 with re-rolling 1s, for an increase of 17%.
BS3+ is 0.67 hits normally, 0.78 with re-rolling 1s, for an increase of 17%.
If they can make up for the lower accuracy with volume of fire, then those abilities are just as worth it as they would be for a model/unit with better BS.
18 Bolter shots = 12 hits, 3 rolls of a 1 which means 2 more hits which is good.
18 SHoota shots = 6 hits and 3 rolls of a 1 which means 1 extra hit.
So yeah, each one increases the percent hit by the same amount but the proportionality is WAY DIFFERENT. Would you rather have 50% of a million dollars or 50% of 10 dollars? which is better?
So for the comparison, 2 Extra hits is 100% better then 1 extra hit, to put it bluntly, increasing something crappy by 5% isn't the same as increasing something good by 5%.
Eonfuzz wrote: Did no one watch the youtube video posted earlier?
The rumor is orks now always hit on 6+ and there is now an army wide "Dakka Dakka Dakka", also known as "Bolter Drill".
I honestly think that's a pretty elegant solution by GW (If true)
....except it wouldn't do nearly enough to justify our plethora of shooting options. Dakka Dakka Dakka is a garbage strat anyway. you have a 1/6th chance to roll a 6, now you get a 1/3rd chance to hit, so your chances of pulling this off is 5.55%. Army wide? for Free? that is fine, just don't expect it to do anything to your damage output. 30 Loota shots at a T7 vehicle = 10 hits with 5 rerolls on average, those 5 rerolls = 1.66 more hits so now instead of 5 wounds on average you get 5.8 Whooopee!
That btw, is why I always said Dakka Dakka Dakka strategy was a waste of command points.
Like others here have said, if it is a unmodified 6 always hits AND generates 1 Extra hit that would be ok, but otherwise its just a waste of time rolling more dice for a minimal impact to the game.
Agreed, its a waste of CP if its extra shots, not hits. Army wide for "free" would be ok. I put "free" in quotes because GW will likely price that into units (rather than it being worth CP or an extra upgrade/wargear that you have to pay for) so then its not really "free" and GW usually does a pretty poor job at estimating the effectiveness to points value of something like that.
This.
I'm a little nervous about our Boyz. If the Goffs trait is true (iirc its 6's in melee generate an extra hit) that means our boyz are no way priced at 6 points anymore.
Typhus's Destroyer Hive has the rule I want to see Orks get - always hits on 5+ for shooting, regardless of modifiers +/-. It makes sense to me, as Orks are more shooting to shoot rather than for legs/heads/whatever. Or maybe take it a step further and just say that Orks are not affected by to-hit modifiers +/- for shooting at all.
As for an army-wide "DakkaDakkaDakka", if paired with the above it might be too much, or might be right what the Dok ordered.
Regarding always getting BS5+...I'm not holding my breath.
Regarding always getting BS6+...not holding my breath for that either.
Letting one faction have it and not the others would create a firestorm...a different kind of grief that they get from Ork players, which they are so good at sloughing off.
If there is a natural-6 rule, it will probably not be in our codex, and possibly not in CA. More like a "beta rule" that they will not ever get around to making official.
Meaning we still will have to argue tooth and claw to get everyone else to agree to it.
JimOnMars wrote: Regarding always getting BS5+...I'm not holding my breath.
Regarding always getting BS6+...not holding my breath for that either.
Letting one faction have it and not the others would create a firestorm...a different kind of grief that they get from Ork players, which they are so good at sloughing off.
If there is a natural-6 rule, it will probably not be in our codex, and possibly not in CA. More like a "beta rule" that they will not ever get around to making official.
Meaning we still will have to argue tooth and claw to get everyone else to agree to it.
They don’t fix the BS problem with Orks then they might as well discontinue any and all ork models with guns. Just release a new line that’s entirely melee focused. I don’t even think that’s a bad idea tbh.
If they ever do an 8.5 or 9th edition they really need to get rid of all the minus to hit rules.
PiñaColada wrote: Well, that's sort of my point. If they did update 40k burnas to d6 would KT burnas still be d3? That's a pretty significant difference and as far as I know there are very few instances of different stats regarding the weapon profiles between 40k and KT. (Aside from point cost)
Why you think KT burna's would change? They don't take their stats from codex.
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Eonfuzz wrote: I'm a little nervous about our Boyz. If the Goffs trait is true (iirc its 6's in melee generate an extra hit) that means our boyz are no way priced at 6 points anymore.
GW values traits worth as 0. They go "all have them, all are equal, no point hike needed"
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Mr.Church13 wrote: If they ever do an 8.5 or 9th edition they really need to get rid of all the minus to hit rules.
Haha. I spent 7th ed reading forums all "GW needs to implement to hit modifiers"
PiñaColada wrote: Well, that's sort of my point. If they did update 40k burnas to d6 would KT burnas still be d3? That's a pretty significant difference and as far as I know there are very few instances of different stats regarding the weapon profiles between 40k and KT. (Aside from point cost)
Why you think KT burna's would change? They don't take their stats from codex.
I'll freely admit that I don't know what I'm talking about in the sense that this is just my observation, not based on any facts.. But don't they? The parity between weapon profiles betwixt the two games is so strong that they're basically mirrored. I'm sure there are quite a few weapon profiles that are slightly different, the only one of the top of my head is the Admech radium carbine which has a stronger added effect on the wound roll of 6+ in KT compared to 40k. Otherwise the differences seem to be point cost and "unmodified hit rolls of 1" for overcharging plasma (which they might implement in 40k as well, as we start to see that wording more and more)
Obviously they're different games and no such update to the rules would have to occur but, and maybe I'm the only one here, I think it'd be weird if that unit got a signifcant boost in 40k and didn't get a KT errata to to try and keep the similarities between the two games.
As for always hitting on a unmodified 6 rule, if they don't implement at least that as a specific ork rule then they basically have to throw out a small 40kFAQ where that rule goes into effect. Fine, index ork shooting is pretty terrible but if we're one of the last armies getting a codex (and as such the -1/2 to hit modifiers are well established) and issue still isn't resolved thus rendering at least half of our units worthless I'd be real disappointed.
Well yeah they are quite similar but are you required to have 40k codex to play? NO! If GW feels d6 shots in 40k is needed but would be too good for KT they can do so. They are separate rule sets so they can and should be looked separatedly _what's balanced within that ruleset_.
Scale is different. In 40k you are flaming entire units generally. In KT you are generally flaming individual models. Maybe more hits in 40k in average represents generally hitting more than 1 guy most of the time.
Now do I believe 40k burna's will get d6 shots? Not really. Maybe they get, maybe they don't but if GW has any sense they shouldn't need constrained by different game rules and would look what is right _for the game involved_
I agree with you, obviously the balance to be struck within that game is different due to the scale.
But at the same time, a guardsman with a flamer is 8 points in KT whereas a burna boy is 12.
The guardsman is roughly as durable (-1T, +1Sv) far worse in close combat (fewer & weaker attacks without AP) but has d6 hits with an identical weapon instead of d3.
Point is, would it really upend the balance of that game if burnas got upgraded to d6? I don't think so considering they're just not worth the price premium over a guardsman with a flamer as of right now IMO.
Burnas could be fixed without increasing them to d6 permanently. In all the games I have played burnas across editions,they rarely got to use their burnas more than once or twice per game.
Considering how cheap and good our troops are we will have no issues getting CP for our stratagem, so spending one or two CP to get 15 d6 out of them will work well.
Add in a point reduction and something that actually does anything for the pyromaniacs rule and I could see them being useful again without changing their stats.
Jidmah wrote: Burnas could be fixed without increasing them to d6 permanently. In all the games I have played burnas across editions,they rarely got to use their burnas more than once or twice per game.
Considering how cheap and good our troops are we will have no issues getting CP for our stratagem, so spending one or two CP to get 15 d6 out of them will work well.
Add in a point reduction and something that actually does anything for the pyromaniacs rule and I could see them being useful again without changing their stats.
Yes, there are other ways of fixing burnas than upping their shots from d3 to d6. The point of my whole tangent was that because of the stratagem in the Krogskull kit I'd find that upgrade to burnas unlikely. However most people seem to disagree that the rule update would overlap so I guess this whole thing turned into a "nevermind then"
As a small aside, I personally hope that the fix to burnas isn't to make them super cheap. Make them better, the burnaweapon is humongous, compare it to a kombiskorcha! Why is it so underwhelming?
Ahh jidmah, someday I might miss our arguments…. When im old and have permanent glasses with nostalgia prescription lenses.
Here has been our debate for this topic on this thread for those more interested in how this started (im preety sure i got them all)….
Jidmah wrote: You are not arguing, you are just constantly being rude because I disagree with your ideas.
i dont remmeber being really rude at all. feel free to look back through these and point out anytimes i was "rude" and if its reasonble i will apologise.
So, 1st off, this whole “deffdredds are comparable to dreadnaughts” that you want to still debate…let’s see here, what does the article (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Deff_Dread) say…. oh, would you look at that, the only thing it says that it’s an “Deff Dreads are deadly Ork walkers. Similar way to Space Marine Dreadnoughts, a Deff Dread's pilot must be permanently wired into the machine”, oh, so the whole argument that you have is on shaky ground. In the context of the sentence it clearly hints that the very concept of the deffdredd is like the dreadnaught…. but says nothing about it being similar in combat prowess. For all we know similar means that they are both combat walkers with either an ork or a sm cybernetically entombed inside to control it. Unless you can find specific fluff where a dreadnought and a deffdredd go head to head (with unbalanced shooting involved) and its anyone’s game then your whole premise is very questionable.
But what were we really arguing about…. now that I look back it looks like you started this after a comment I made. I wanted ork vehicles to get good price cuts to make them more useful, you want them instead to get more durable and effective. I then argue that I would prefer to host my ork walkers/vehicles in a horde because its fluffy, you argue that it’s not fluffy and that there is nowhere in the fluff besides one place, I rebuttal that it’s in the fluff, then you say it doesn’t count because its only in 1 or 2 spots in the fluff, I says fluff is fluff, rarity does not negate it, then you go on and say that these hordes are not hordes.
What’s the point with arguing with you? You seem deadest to disagreeing with me, and while I didn’t start this I am going to finish it with some final thoughts. You can keep debating me…but I I’ll have moved on.
So, about the fluff issue, in relation to the formations I mentioned, they are all supported by fluff, unless you forgot that all those formation datasheets have little fluff blurbs on them. heck the 7th edition codex even mentions escentric bigmeks that desire to build and make hordes of clanking walkers (though they are usualy exciled because of this) fluff proves you wrong (i could dig out my codexs and supplements out of storage to prove this, but this reply is too long already, but i have a feeling you already new all this "fluff" existed).
But whenever fluff doesn’t agree with your argument then you pretty much say “it’s too uncommon”, oh wow, that’s just great, lets dictate to the whole 40k community that only 1/10 of them can play space marines and the rest have to play imp guard, I say this since space marines make up “fluff wise” only a small fraction of the imperium’s fighting forces. While we are at it lets tell all the xenos players they either play necrons or tyranids or orks because the elder and tau are minuscule compared to what I just listed. Styles of armies and the player base doesn’t match to the fluff nor should it, if you want to join a more fluff friendly distribution of armies then 30ks expensive doors are open and willing.
And that is a good segue into cost. Let’s see here, the most common fluffy ork build by your standards would be a green tide. If we are only doing 120 boyz (some suggest at that point to do more boyz, but let’s stick with just this) then that is 360$us, ours is not a cheap hobby if you wanted to just run the basic meta orks. If you want to be stingy with money, I don’t blame you. you can find cheaper for 2nd hand, but why argue the price? Many agree GW prices are ridiculous anyway, but that shouldn’t stop you from “eventually” building and playing a fun ork force to your liking (of course many can get around this with good conversions). I have collected an ork walker horde, and my only regrets is that I can’t field more of them because of their points inefficiency.
Then you say the formations I had listed are “hardly hordes”. the term “horde” means “a large group of people.”, unless you have a set number on a horde then I suggest don’t judge too quickly what is and is not a horde. 10 boyz might not seem like a horde to a guardsmen regiment, but a whopping 90 can be intimidating. A lemun russ MBT might laugh at 3 killakans marching at it, but would be set in reverse gear if 12 were charging towards it. Horde is based on a matter of perspective, and to me a Dredd mob is a horde of walkers, and if they were cheaper points wise then I would bring even more then what the formation allowed (or the equivalent of multiple spearheads to do that for 8th).
So let’s see, orks are known, whether they are at novem or on Armageddon or possibly anywhere else in the galaxy, for bringing large formations of vehicles and elites. You argue their stats should be changed to make them more elite…but I say they should be cheaper because the fact they like to overwhelm their enemies with everything from their arsenal.
tldr
I would argue fluff supports me more then you, but you’ve proven you are very unwilling to listen and change your own mind (I get it, im a little stubborn git too), so I guess i will let bygones be bygones and agree to disagree. Ill end this now, but when in the future you eventually start another argument with me on a different topic then I’ll be more than willing to debate back. This has been the most active I’ve been on dakka dakka in a long time.
but also pray, because some of these sound incredible;
.....your logic is undeniable. 
