Thank Gork that stupid argument about Deffdreads is over! I was literally writing a bit asking you both to stop but it seems that it's ended naturally anyway.
Can you do me a favour and put that massive wall of text in a spoiler tag please because I'm assuming it's mostly for Jidmah?
As to the notion of Orks are a 'horde' army I don't think this is exactly true but it's not far off. What I would suggest is that Orks have had a habit since as long as I can remember of having slightly cheaper units that are slightly worse than the Imperial counterpart. Not dramatically, 3 Deffdreads = a Dreadnought worse, but slightly worse and slightly cheaper. Normally it's the durability that is slightly worse. Hence we could often squeeze a few more bodies in to our lists than others. This is why I'm so interested in what they do with the new Buggies and why I personally think they will be less durable, but faster and slightly cheaper versions of other factions' tanks. This, for me at least, is the classic "Orky" defining feature. Our stuff might not be as good on paper, but when we get to throw in a unit of Boyz, a Nobz squad or a Biker squad because of savings it's suddenly a different kettle of fish. #prosegway
SemperMortis wrote: 18 Bolter shots = 12 hits, 3 rolls of a 1 which means 2 more hits which is good.
18 SHoota shots = 6 hits and 3 rolls of a 1 which means 1 extra hit.
So yeah, each one increases the percent hit by the same amount but the proportionality is WAY DIFFERENT. Would you rather have 50% of a million dollars or 50% of 10 dollars? which is better?
So for the comparison, 2 Extra hits is 100% better then 1 extra hit, to put it bluntly, increasing something crappy by 5% isn't the same as increasing something good by 5%.
This doesn't really matter though - if point wise you can get 36 shoota shots for the cost of 18 bolter shots (and you can) - both get 2 hits.
The issue is reliability. You fire a few melta gun or wave a SW thunderhammer hitting on 2s rerolling 1s - and that freak occasion when get a disproportionate number of 1s (which could turn a tournament) will most likely turn out to be hits after all.
By contrast if you are only hitting on 5s or 6s, a lot of the time your rerolls won't get you anything. Statistically it will even out but since the game is dependent on discrete dice rolls at a certain point in time this matters. You are hoping to be disproportionately lucky - the guy above is hoping to not to be disproportionately unlucky.
This is why hitting on 5s versus hitting on 6s, but 6s counting as an extra hit isn't the same. Theoretically the outcome should be - but in practice you are skewing the outcomes. So for instance there will be that time when you fire say 4 rokkits and get 8 hits versus the 48% of all times where you miss the lot. By contrast hitting on 5s, the odds of you missing with 4 rokkits is just 20% - but you will never get more than 4 hits.
===
The ork dreads have always been considered comparable to SM dreads, wraithlords, talos etc.
Orks already have a horde dread - its called a Killa Kan.
yeah,im not used to using the spoiler tag, but we are on a new page anyway.
wanted that argument to end, went on a little too long and most everyone else on the thread were ignoring us anyway.
i guess my idea of what a deffdredd is is based on both fluff and tabletop performance.
sure, i guess they are comparable to units like the waithlords/talos/etc since they possibly fill similar battlefield roles of slow and melee focused (except when they are not melee focused, which is a disconnected with our dredd since it really doesn't do shooting).
all through 7th and even 8th my deffdredds have barely compared to enemy dreadnought types, so i assume they are meant to be taken in large number to be more effective. just like you take a whole squad of boys to be sure to take care of a few space marines.
man, 7th sucked with the vehicle damage table plus initiative system, my friends dreadnought ripped through a deffdredd and a morkanuat in the same game. that is not comparable.
fluff often isn't very reliable with consistency, you'll see countless forums debating how awesome individual spacemarines are based on fluff, but my experience with them is they are just "ok" because a basic spacemarine was hardly hot stuff and as superhuman as they claim. so my opinions on orks walkers are based on both fluff and tabletop performance.
thats why i always want cheaper units, i want to field a large dreddmob someday that will make my opponent quiver with fear.
geargutz wrote: tldr
I would argue fluff supports me more then you, but you’ve proven you are very unwilling to listen and change your own mind (I get it, im a little stubborn git too), so I guess i will let bygones be bygones and agree to disagree. Ill end this now, but when in the future you eventually start another argument with me on a different topic then I’ll be more than willing to debate back. This has been the most active I’ve been on dakka dakka in a long time.
I honestly thank you for this answer. I'm on this forum to discuss topics in civil manner and not to get into mudfights. I will stop this discussion for the sake of the thread and will send you the blurbs of fluff I'm referring to via PM when I'm near my books again (might not be today).
SemperMortis wrote: 18 Bolter shots = 12 hits, 3 rolls of a 1 which means 2 more hits which is good.
18 SHoota shots = 6 hits and 3 rolls of a 1 which means 1 extra hit.
So yeah, each one increases the percent hit by the same amount but the proportionality is WAY DIFFERENT. Would you rather have 50% of a million dollars or 50% of 10 dollars? which is better?
So for the comparison, 2 Extra hits is 100% better then 1 extra hit, to put it bluntly, increasing something crappy by 5% isn't the same as increasing something good by 5%.
This doesn't really matter though - if point wise you can get 36 shoota shots for the cost of 18 bolter shots (and you can) - both get 2 hits.
The issue is reliability. You fire a few melta gun or wave a SW thunderhammer hitting on 2s rerolling 1s - and that freak occasion when get a disproportionate number of 1s (which could turn a tournament) will most likely turn out to be hits after all.
By contrast if you are only hitting on 5s or 6s, a lot of the time your rerolls won't get you anything. Statistically it will even out but since the game is dependent on discrete dice rolls at a certain point in time this matters. You are hoping to be disproportionately lucky - the guy above is hoping to not to be disproportionately unlucky.
This is why hitting on 5s versus hitting on 6s, but 6s counting as an extra hit isn't the same. Theoretically the outcome should be - but in practice you are skewing the outcomes. So for instance there will be that time when you fire say 4 rokkits and get 8 hits versus the 48% of all times where you miss the lot. By contrast hitting on 5s, the odds of you missing with 4 rokkits is just 20% - but you will never get more than 4 hits.
Except it does matter, I gave you a rough comparison, points cost doesn't factor into this equation. Would you rather have reroll 1s when you hit on 3s or would you rather have reroll 1s when you hit on 5s? Which is going to benefit more? The simple and obvious answer is that the unit hitting on 3s will benefit more from rerolling 1s because they will get a 2/3rd chance to hit compared to the other unit who will get a 1/3rd chance to hit.
I used Bolters and shootas as a simple comparison because it was easy, I could do a similar comparison for other models with similar style weapons. Lootas for instance compared to Chaos Havocs with autocannons. I think the Havocs cost 22pts a piece? and a Loota is 17, so 4 havocs = 5 Lootas or there about. 4 havocs get 8 Shots with 1 maybe 2 rolls of a 1, they then get a 2/3rd chance to hit with those misses, those lootas get 10 shots on average and 1-2 rolls of a 1 and a 1/3rd chance to hit, who does the reroll benefit more? The simple answer is and always will be the unit with a BETTER CHANCE TO HIT. That is why I said the rerolling 1s for Orkz is both stupid and a waste of time. I don't want to reroll a handful of dice and have a 1/3rd chance to get another hit.
Except it does matter, I gave you a rough comparison, points cost doesn't factor into this equation. Would you rather have reroll 1s when you hit on 3s or would you rather have reroll 1s when you hit on 5s? Which is going to benefit more? The simple and obvious answer is that the unit hitting on 3s will benefit more from rerolling 1s because they will get a 2/3rd chance to hit compared to the other unit who will get a 1/3rd chance to hit.
Simple and obvious but still wrong. You will get same % of hit increase either way.
Not being an Ork player I don't have much invested, except that I play against an Ork player, and so hope his army is fun and strong to play with and against. Looking at the bonuses I see them all as pretty good, with no one really standing out as an auto-choose ... except for the Free Booters' 'Units become +1 to-hit after an allied unit has destroyed an enemy unit.'
Thought this one might be worth a bit of discussion, particularly if this might be a change that applies to all -1 to hit army traits. I really hope that's not the case. The -1 to hit is already great, and I like the idea of making there be a trigger. But to have it be destroying an enemy unit makes no sense to me. This just makes it just as good for the player who goes first, but no where near as good for the one that goes second. Going first is already a major advantage without this on top of it! I would much prefer it if your army gets -1 to hit when one of YOUR units is destroyed. The point of the whole trait was to cause problems for gunlines, but this surely does the exact opposite for the person going second without addressing the fact that, when present, it's the auto go-to trait.
BoLS stooping to new lows within the realms of 'journalism' and regurgitating a video from 'popular' YouTuber Valrak. It's incredibly unlikely there is any validity at all to the person who anonymously messaged Valrak claiming to be a play tester with some badly worded Clan Rules.
But hey ho, people don't seem to like applying common sense and logic to information before swallowing it whole.
(P.S I'm going to look rather silly if these are the exact Clan Traits we get.)
(P.P.S I'm a GW play tester and I know these are not the actual Clan Traits so my internet pride shall remain intact.)
Except it does matter, I gave you a rough comparison, points cost doesn't factor into this equation. Would you rather have reroll 1s when you hit on 3s or would you rather have reroll 1s when you hit on 5s? Which is going to benefit more? The simple and obvious answer is that the unit hitting on 3s will benefit more from rerolling 1s because they will get a 2/3rd chance to hit compared to the other unit who will get a 1/3rd chance to hit.
Simple and obvious but still wrong. You will get same % of hit increase either way.
The increase to hit is flat across the board but rerolling your hits is inherently better the better you are at hitting. even if it is just 1s. You end up with a better chance of your reroll hitting
Except it does matter, I gave you a rough comparison, points cost doesn't factor into this equation. Would you rather have reroll 1s when you hit on 3s or would you rather have reroll 1s when you hit on 5s? Which is going to benefit more? The simple and obvious answer is that the unit hitting on 3s will benefit more from rerolling 1s because they will get a 2/3rd chance to hit compared to the other unit who will get a 1/3rd chance to hit.
Simple and obvious but still wrong. You will get same % of hit increase either way.
Incorrect my friend. If two units of equal cost shoot the same number of shots but one hits on 3s and the other on 5s and they both get reroll ones then the unit with 3+ to hit will always benefit more from rerolling 1s then the other army. I just proved it with the loota comparison. you get the same number of rerolls but the unit hitting on 3s benefits more because they hit twice as often, it doesn't matter that this is the same % of increase as the other unit because again, if you get 10% more of 10 and 10% more of 100 which one benefits more?
BoLS stooping to new lows within the realms of 'journalism' and regurgitating a video from 'popular' YouTuber Valrak. It's incredibly unlikely there is any validity at all to the person who anonymously messaged Valrak claiming to be a play tester with some badly worded Clan Rules.
But hey ho, people don't seem to like applying common sense and logic to information before swallowing it whole.
(P.S I'm going to look rather silly if these are the exact Clan Traits we get.)
(P.P.S I'm a GW play tester and I know these are not the actual Clan Traits so my internet pride shall remain intact.)
Honestly, I never believe rumours but in the 40k rumour world stranger things have happened. Thismone dude claimed to be a necron play testers and next thing we know he shows us a vido of the entire codex weeks before it was even ready for preorder.
Except it does matter, I gave you a rough comparison, points cost doesn't factor into this equation. Would you rather have reroll 1s when you hit on 3s or would you rather have reroll 1s when you hit on 5s? Which is going to benefit more? The simple and obvious answer is that the unit hitting on 3s will benefit more from rerolling 1s because they will get a 2/3rd chance to hit compared to the other unit who will get a 1/3rd chance to hit.
Simple and obvious but still wrong. You will get same % of hit increase either way.
Incorrect my friend. If two units of equal cost shoot the same number of shots but one hits on 3s and the other on 5s and they both get reroll ones then the unit with 3+ to hit will always benefit more from rerolling 1s then the other army. I just proved it with the loota comparison. you get the same number of rerolls but the unit hitting on 3s benefits more because they hit twice as often, it doesn't matter that this is the same % of increase as the other unit because again, if you get 10% more of 10 and 10% more of 100 which one benefits more?
Yes but your number of hits goes up same %. 16% is 16%. Do math. Both tac and ork increases number of hits they get by same %. Which is 16.6666666666666666....%
Which doesn't change the fact that it's useless for orks, because our shooting is less efficient because space marines don't cost 3 times what orks cost..
16.6% of 3 is more than 16.6% of 1
Also +1 BS and flat re-rolls are better than re-roll '1' for orks than it is for space marines.
so if all vehicles got ramshackle that would be great, but that increases dice rolling too much, making the game longer.
so maybe this rule for all our vehicles and maybe meganobz
"dead 'ard"
"this unit ignores one rend"
its common in aos, i encounter it when i fight my brothers dwarf longbeards, it hampers the fairly common rend one wpns and decreases the higher penetration types.
this way we dont have to roll so many dice and we get better saves against those tank killer wpns.
I think the original idea behind ramshackle was that a lascannon or missile hit something, just to find out that the part they have blown off was either completely useless or redundant.
Your idea goes more towards being resilient to medium arms fire, which IMO is an intended weakness for ork vehicles. It also exists in 40k, but usually on exceptionally durable units. I don't picture trukks as such.
But I agree, the string of 6+ rolls (ramshackle, FNP, armor, to hit with advancing assault weapons, shoot again on 6+, etc, ect) really gets annoying when playing orks, you roll a lot of dice that never amount to anything.
In the end, ramshackle is just a creative implementation of FNP, I have an entire army which rolls FNP for every single damage done ever. So maybe we should just have it trigger on a 5+ to make it feel less like a wast of time and more like actual protection for our vehicles.
I think a rule similar to Necron's Quantum Shielding would be both fluffy and useful for Ork vehicles. For multi D wounds, roll a dice, and if you roll less than the amount of damage, it is ignored.
This would easily represent a lascannon hitting, but just going straight through without damaging anything important, and still leaving our vehicles vulnerable to high volume D1 fire (as they should be).
TonyH122 wrote: Thought this one might be worth a bit of discussion, particularly if this might be a change that applies to all -1 to hit army traits. I really hope that's not the case. The -1 to hit is already great, and I like the idea of making there be a trigger. But to have it be destroying an enemy unit makes no sense to me. This just makes it just as good for the player who goes first, but no where near as good for the one that goes second. Going first is already a major advantage without this on top of it! I would much prefer it if your army gets -1 to hit when one of YOUR units is destroyed. The point of the whole trait was to cause problems for gunlines, but this surely does the exact opposite for the person going second without addressing the fact that, when present, it's the auto go-to trait.
I don't understand what you're trying to get at here? You don't want a -1 to hit modifier to be dependent on a trigger? It's not, currently? This isn't the place for discussions on -1 to hit modifiers except to state that they obviously break Ork shooting and probably shouldn't exist at all.
Oguhmek wrote: I think a rule similar to Necron's Quantum Shielding would be both fluffy and useful for Ork vehicles. For multi D wounds, roll a dice, and if you roll less than the amount of damage, it is ignored.
This would easily represent a lascannon hitting, but just going straight through without damaging anything important, and still leaving our vehicles vulnerable to high volume D1 fire (as they should be).
This is a great idea! Therefore, it won't be included in any of our datasheets
It does make a lot of sense though. Congrats on hitting with your lascannon, it's just a shame you hit the decorative spikes, ya git!
tneva82 wrote: Yes but your number of hits goes up same %. 16% is 16%. Do math. Both tac and ork increases number of hits they get by same %. Which is 16.6666666666666666....%
Tneva, what's 16.66666% of 0? Then tell me what 16.66666% of 100 is. Please explain how these 2 numbers are the same and why the benefit is equal? We've done the math dude, you've been shown it above, it's clearly better to have rerolls on units that have a better chance to hit because the total number of extra hits you get is much larger.
Quick question: is that just a deff dread conversion at the foot of the stompa or..? I haven't seen it anywhere else, along with that big banner next to it If it is just a conversion are there better images of it somewhere? It looks cool with dual miniguns and a KFF
Billagio wrote: Looks like a deff dread conversion, though I think miniguns would be awesome wargear
Does look really cool!
I always thought Killa Kanz should be allowed specialise as either dual ranged weapons (or dual klaw), rather than 1 ranged + klaw. This would take advantage of Grot BS4+ and actually make them a nice shooting platform for Dread Mob lists. Rather than them being kinda Jack of all trades 'meh don't really pose a ranged threat BUT they can also CC a bit if they walk forwards for 3 turns...'
I think Killa Kans are actually kinda fine in the role they fill, they’re just – as with so much stuff that isn’t just boyz – a bit too expensive to justify taking them over like ten more boyz. If they were clocking in at like 45 points I’d be more into them.
As far as names go a lot of the new GW names sound weird to me. I'd guess that they're trying to make things more unique and easy to copyright, but I don't know. I'd also guess that part of it is that I'm used to the made up nonsense names that have been around since I was a child, so they don't sound weird to me even though they are probably equally strange. The new models look great though.
I wouldn't mind a boss character in between a nob and a warboss. I don't think it is at all necessary, I just think it would be cool. It could help make some army compositions make sense narratively. From a gameplay perspective I don't know what they'd really add, as the Orks already have redundant morale mitigation and don't need anymore. Maybe they could give the Warboss a better aura ability and give the junior warboss the old Knockin' Heads ability and/or make the junior warboss more points efficient as a beat stick unit while the Warboss is less points efficient as a beat stick but does a better job buffing.
I think the only way I would feel a junior warboss would be kind of necessary (as opposed to just cool) would be if they came out with a new warboss model that made the existing ones look puny (I'm waiting for more details on the giant blurry ork in the background of the Speed Freeks image). On the other hand if they came out with a new plastic ork that was a lot bigger than the current warbosses it could be a Warlord instead of a Warboss, which would definitely be cool.
I'm pretty excited for Orktober. If rumors of Moonclan are accurate we might also get more squig bits for kitbashing.
The Warboss and Warlord dynamic already exists in the fluff- the Warboss Yarrick killed for his claw was a lieutenant of Ghaz.
Having said that, I could also see a role for a nob of nobs as a second-in-command for a warband. Basically the second biggest, who is the favourite for taking over if the Warboss is jobbed/rises to become a Warlord over multiple bands.
I don't like the idea of creating a big nob or lieutenant model because the current 'Warboss' model fulfils that purpose already. Grukk and the old metal model has never struck me as a warlord. They are both far too puny.
In all the artwork and lore a warlord is supposed to be a serious threat in his own right. To be honest so is a warboss. He is not a slightly bigger Ork with a bit of flash dakka, he is a massive Ork reaching up to the size of a dreadnought and more. I never understood why the Ghazzy model was so much smaller than all the artwork portrayed him.
Haighus wrote: The Warboss and Warlord dynamic already exists in the fluff- the Warboss Yarrick killed for his claw was a lieutenant of Ghaz.
Having said that, I could also see a role for a nob of nobs as a second-in-command for a warband. Basically the second biggest, who is the favourite for taking over if the Warboss is jobbed/rises to become a Warlord over multiple bands.
Either or both would work in my opinion.
Yep, would be into either of these options. Would be surprised if they brought back the "Warlord" name though, given that it's now a generic term used for your army commander in the game rules. Personally, I'd go for bringing back "Clanboss" as the Lieutenant level and leave Warbosses as the top guy.
The size of Thrakka's model is due to its age. When he was sculpted, he was almost the size of the deff dread model that was being sold at that time. The deff dread grew, thrakka didn't.
By the way, Thrakka's second-in-command warbosses are called "Leftenuntz"
All I want is orks to shoot more bullets than mureens. 2-3 shot slugas, 3-5 shot shootas, 8-10 big shootas, 3-4 rokkits, deffguns with 2-3 d3 shots. Stompas rolling dozens and dozens of shots. Just lame how Orks roll buckets of dice in melee and a couple in ranged. This is beyond slowed.
Then passive dakka dakka dakka rule and CA fixing the rules for 1s and 6s. When did they screw up that simple rule anyway?
Wow, that is fantastic looking! It is loaded with guns. There is another one (big shoota looks like) on the left-hand side, in addition to that contraption at the top.
Edit - Also, the orks look a lot like the fantasy savage orks.
snazzwagon
-grot blastas (not sure if this will be represented in the 8th edition rules, grot blastas are pointless, even more so then the las banks on a chimera)
-1 hull mounted bigshoota, Pintle mounted bigshoota and tri barrel type rotary cannon (i suspect its all the same weapon, or maybe just 2 with the hull mounted one being separate, i suspect a lot of shots at around s5-6 with range most likely at 36inch)
-Molotovs (with 2 on the model i definitely suspect it to be a wpn, and maybe not a traditional grenade, but maybe some type of weapon sort of like the defkoptas bigbomm with you having to "drive by" to hit the enemy)
-final thoughts (this is the anti infantry buggie with a focus on flames and shootas)
shockjumpah
-targeting squig (i expect a higher ballistic skill like the flashgitz but not limited and can shoot bs4 at normal speeds)
-shock jump system (maybe a scout move or maybe a really cool bonus to charge since in the fluff blurbs they've said talks about using it to jump to the gits, like when the old SAG used to be a personal telly port system for an unsuspecting bigmek)
-rokets (probably normal rokets, with basic roket stats to add a little extra dakka for this beast)
-da grindah (more killy than the rams on the other buggies, this one is an active mini deathrolla, i imagine an actual good melee profile and would pair well with my suspicions that the jumpah helps it get into combat)
-shock attack kustom blasta (very unique looking among ork weapons, but the grot looks like hes actively feeding the thing with what look like little batteries, maybe something similar to cpt badruk's kustom snazzgun that shoots mini plasma cells, so i suspect high strength, high ap but few shots and shorter range like 24inches)
-final thoughts (i suspect this is anti tank but deigned to get close and personal to the enemy, maybe it might have a cool randum table like the SAG of old but hopefully not too many negative options)
kustom boosta blasta
-stick bomb (might work like the Molotov idea for the snazzwagon)
-exhaust pipes with flamer igniters (an odd enough detail that it seems it could be a weapon, ill just assume it works like the "drive by" idea i had)
-big cannon (this thing has electrical bits on it and its ammo feed looks like big bolts being loaded into it, so i suspect its some type of rail gun, probably has few shots but a good range and possibly a decent strength and ap)
-final thoughts (im thinking this beast is built for high speed ranged combat)
final thoughts for all vehicles
with the incorporation of stickbombs/Molotovs/ the flamer exhaust/and the nasty looking rams i suspect thses are weapons that encourage you to keep these vehicles moving to the enemy and not stuck in ruins firing from afar. but i dont think GW want these vehicle to get stuck in combat and then not able to shoot the rest of the battle (remember a buggy in combat is a buggy not racing), so maybe most of theses close range options are some type of "drive by" type system that only allows these bombs to be shot when the vehicle passes by an enemy unit within a certain distance (like 3 inches or something, again similar to the defkopta bigbomm). (
now, GW could be ignorant enough to make all these wpns hvy and thus force them to stay a distance away and trying to fire from cover, but these models could also very well be given rules that encourage to constantly be moving with out having to stop for any git while dropping grenades and unleashing dakka.
snazzwagon
-grot blastas (not sure if this will be represented in the 8th edition rules, grot blastas are pointless, even more so then the las banks on a chimera)
-1 hull mounted bigshoota, Pintle mounted bigshoota and tri barrel type rotary cannon (i suspect its all the same weapon, or maybe just 2 with the hull mounted one being separate, i suspect a lot of shots at around s5-6 with range most likely at 36inch)
-Molotovs (with 2 on the model i definitely suspect it to be a wpn, and maybe not a traditional grenade, but maybe some type of weapon sort of like the defkoptas bigbomm with you having to "drive by" to hit the enemy)
-final thoughts (this is the anti infantry buggie with a focus on flames and shootas)
shockjumpah
-targeting squig (i expect a higher ballistic skill like the flashgitz but not limited and can shoot bs4 at normal speeds)
-shock jump system (maybe a scout move or maybe a really cool bonus to charge since in the fluff blurbs they've said talks about using it to jump to the gits, like when the old SAG used to be a personal telly port system for an unsuspecting bigmek)
-rokets (probably normal rokets, with basic roket stats to add a little extra dakka for this beast)
-da grindah (more killy than the rams on the other buggies, this one is an active mini deathrolla, i imagine an actual good melee profile and would pair well with my suspicions that the jumpah helps it get into combat)
-shock attack kustom blasta (very unique looking among ork weapons, but the grot looks like hes actively feeding the thing with what look like little batteries, maybe something similar to cpt badruk's kustom snazzgun that shoots mini plasma cells, so i suspect high strength, high ap but few shots and shorter range like 24inches)
-final thoughts (i suspect this is anti tank but deigned to get close and personal to the enemy, maybe it might have a cool randum table like the SAG of old but hopefully not too many negative options)
kustom boosta blasta
-stick bomb (might work like the Molotov idea for the snazzwagon)
-exhaust pipes with flamer igniters (an odd enough detail that it seems it could be a weapon, ill just assume it works like the "drive by" idea i had)
-big cannon (this thing has electrical bits on it and its ammo feed looks like big bolts being loaded into it, so i suspect its some type of rail gun, probably has few shots but a good range and possibly a decent strength and ap)
-final thoughts (im thinking this beast is built for high speed ranged combat)
final thoughts for all vehicles
with the incorporation of stickbombs/Molotovs/ the flamer exhaust/and the nasty looking rams i suspect thses are weapons that encourage you to keep these vehicles moving to the enemy and not stuck in ruins firing from afar. but i dont think GW want these vehicle to get stuck in combat and then not able to shoot the rest of the battle (remember a buggy in combat is a buggy not racing), so maybe most of theses close range options are some type of "drive by" type system that only allows these bombs to be shot when the vehicle passes by an enemy unit within a certain distance (like 3 inches or something, again similar to the defkopta bigbomm). (
now, GW could be ignorant enough to make all these wpns hvy and thus force them to stay a distance away and trying to fire from cover, but these models could also very well be given rules that encourage to constantly be moving with out having to stop for any git while dropping grenades and unleashing dakka.
Nice summary and strong guesses.
I hope none of the weapons are heavy, it'd be really dumb.
In addition to your guesses I think the boosta blasta has another weapon/wargear option - grot gunner or grot riggers. Maybe the tankiest out of the three?
I hope none of the weapons are heavy, it'd be really dumb.
In addition to your guesses I think the boosta blasta has another weapon/wargear option - grot gunner or grot riggers. Maybe the tankiest out of the three?
thanks.
i can imagine grot rigger, since they are all over these vehicles, i still think the mad max grot on the front of the snazzwagon (man, i love saying that word ) could be a "grot shield" and will tank the 1st shot or something.
I agree on the point that they all seem to have some sort of "drive by" weapon. Hope that means, like you pointed out, that they've tried to give them rules where it's favourable to keep moving around the battlefield.
"Obviously" none of these weapons are heavy, that'd be insane considering these vehicles are from a racing game. Maybe there's a mechanic where you might explode a little if you're shooting everything while advancing though..
Also An Actual Englishman, are you sure the Boomdakka Snazzwagon isn't the tankiest one? It has a literal grot shield! (And apparently I was ninjad by geargutz, that kunnin' git!)
Also An Actual Englishman, are you sure the Boomdakka Snazzwagon isn't the tankiest one? It has a literal grot shield! (And apparently I was ninjad by geargutz, that kunnin' git!)
By.... By Gork and Mork... It's... It's beautiful!
Okay I am absolu-hu-huetly going to have like three of each of these buggies running around along with bikers, trukks and battlewagons. I don't care if it'll be good or not, it'll be the coolest looking army in my area.
I mean just look at all the guns on that thing. I really think this is going to be the anti-infantry variant, the dragsta is the anti-vehicle with its plasma, and the red one is the anti-MEQ with its grav. Calling it now.
Can somebody knock me out and put me into a coma until Orktober because I don't think I can take much more of this anticipation.
Isnt the three barrelled bit a lot like one of the flash git snazzguns?
Maybe it literally just has a snazzgun.
I really hope snazzguns aren't heavy in the codex
TheWawior wrote: Isnt the three barrelled bit a lot like one of the flash git snazzguns?
Maybe it literally just has a snazzgun.
I really hope snazzguns aren't heavy in the codex
Don't hold your breath. 7th and 8th has been a windfall of chances for GW to make orkz good or competitive or at the very least useful. What do they do instead? make up nonsensical statements about why things shouldn't work out for orkz. I think it was the GW Facebook crew who answered a question about whether or not a Battlewagonz innate ability regarding heavy weapons transferred to its passengers.Basically the gist of it was "Nope, because da Flash gitz don't need no help" or some other ridiculous statement. Over the last 6ish years GW has had something like 4-6 chances (Codex, supplements, index, FAQ and Errata) to fix glaring problems with the ork army and instead they just crap on us. Most likely if that is a snazzgun then the buggy will be BS4+ so it looks like "Yay snazz gun is useful" and then you realize that its heavy and when it moves it becomes 5+ again.
Don't hold your breath. 7th and 8th has been a windfall of chances for GW to make orkz good or competitive or at the very least useful. What do they do instead? make up nonsensical statements about why things shouldn't work out for orkz. I think it was the GW Facebook crew who answered a question about whether or not a Battlewagonz innate ability regarding heavy weapons transferred to its passengers.Basically the gist of it was "Nope, because da Flash gitz don't need no help" or some other ridiculous statement. Over the last 6ish years GW has had something like 4-6 chances (Codex, supplements, index, FAQ and Errata) to fix glaring problems with the ork army and instead they just crap on us. Most likely if that is a snazzgun then the buggy will be BS4+ so it looks like "Yay snazz gun is useful" and then you realize that its heavy and when it moves it becomes 5+ again.
well, its hard to be pessimistic. with so many new awesome models many of us think they just have to put out good rules to help sell them. that is of course we choose to forget the last big model release they did (flashgitz,wazbomjet,gmorkanaut). but who knows, GW of the past has treated us poorly, but this is new GW has done well for some factions (deldar were bad in the past right until the new 8th codex). arguments can be made for both really.
i expect "at least" the new models will have good rules and the rest of the codex will be pitiful (i hope this will not be the case and we get something more internally balanced). we wont get a feeling of how warm the water will be until we get articles about new ork rules (and more "reliable" leaks) that i expect will start coming out mid September.
hey, i learned how to use the spoiler tag, *precedes to hang head in shame when he realized it was the simplest thing to learn in the world
Looking at the Boomdakka Snazzwagon I see a decent amount of dakka, but not all that much boom. Maybe they're referring to the molotovs the krew are getting ready to throw? That would be kind of weird. Maybe some of the weapons are using mini-rokkits like the old Hopsplat Gun and Splatta Kannon? That would be cool.
This isn't a big complaint, more something I find curious.
I suspect (I've never dared find out) that Boyz might look better on 32s, but totally agree that it'd cause a right load of faff from an in-game perspective. I'm pretty happy with the solution I currently use – Boyz on 25s, special weapons/lootas/burnas etc on 32s, Nobz on 32s as well. Initially did it to avoid some old metal Nobz/Big Shoota models tipping over, then decided I liked the look better anyway.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Looking at the Boomdakka Snazzwagon I see a decent amount of dakka, but not all that much boom. Maybe they're referring to the molotovs the krew are getting ready to throw? That would be kind of weird. Maybe some of the weapons are using mini-rokkits like the old Hopsplat Gun and Splatta Kannon? That would be cool.
This isn't a big complaint, more something I find curious.
If it is the unit which covers all the old buggy options, it may have rokkits as an alternative weapon, so it could mean boom / dakka rather than boom-dakka. Ork grammar is obviously subtle and hard to translate.
I've been thinking about putting my boyz on 32mm's for a while now, because they'd look better...but yeah...thinking about actually playing with that many boyz, on 32mm's...that could be pretty miserable now that I think about it...it can be hard enough as it is to get a decent amount of boyz in combat, or around terrain sometimes...
I'm not active in tournaments these days. I've played in 1 40K tournament this year and it saw enjoyable enough despite taking last or close to last. It wasn't overly competitive as far as I can tell but more than I had expected. So I never ran the full on boys list there and probably wouldn't due to my own physical limitations. This is going to sound contrary to my last post. My more recent lists have had less than 90 boys in them, closer to 70ish. 70 to 90 ish and I'd be fine with that many or less on 32's.
I don't want to do it. But if I'm playing even a random pickup game and some one cries about less than 90 boys in 25's I doubt I will play them again.
Speed Freaks has me thinking about a vehicle heavy fast list with again very few boys in it.
What I am most hopeful for is a codex exception from that stupid rule of 3 for Orks. Just wish listing with that.
All of that and I won't be rebasing at all. It's the only reason I hope they give us new troop models, like the mentioned skar boys. I'b be pleased to mount those in vehicles for that low model count tournament play.
Yeah, screw rebasing. Unless you're tournament player it's no problem. I play my hqs on huge bases because i love it! It's a good way to make it feel cinematic.
I'll make some bullet points later if noone beats me to it. But some interesting stuff in here
The previous leaked clan traits seem to be true unfortunately..
No warboss, painboy or big mek on bike.
New wartrike model.
The squig buggies are actually named rockettrukk squig buggy
Ghaz is apparently amazing, don't know if it's a new model
There's a mekshop that buffs vehicles sort of like the forgeshrine for knights but this one seems good.
Dakkadakkadakka is an army wide rule, 6's generates extra shots.
Apparently the gorkanaut is amazing now.
KFF is now "wholly within" (presumably 9" but not stated)
There's a stratagem that lets orks keep 20 power level off the board and deepstrike in anywhere on the board more than 9" away from the enemy.
Green tide stratagem, Take a boyz unit under half strength and set it up wholly within 6" of table and more than 9" away from the enemy (Don't know if it also replenishes the unit ála tide of traitors)
Grot shield stratagem, when suffering a wound on a 2+ a grot unit within 3" suffers a wound instead. Grots have to be closer to the firing unit
Ramming speed stratagem, ork vehicles can charge 3d6" and does mortal wounds when it successfully charges
Long uncrontrolled bursts stratagem, add +1 for flyers against other flyers
Looted stratagem, ork infantry units gain +1 Save when a vehicle is destroyed near them.
Get stuck in stratagem, ork infantry can pile in and fight again in CC
Seems ok, depends what they have done to the units obviously but seems reasonable, not overpowered and very likely not top tier which I actually like (keep the bandwagon jumpers away)
- Changes to trukks, lootas and meganobz
- Painboy rules
- What the deffrolla does
- How reinforced ram works
- If boys will get any rules that favor taking them in smaller groups, or if the rules continue to nudge players towards playing them in huge unweildy groups
Things im sad to hear
- The KFF is wholly within
- NO HQ bike rules
- Klan traits were true
Perfect Organism wrote: Rumoured traits from 4chan:
Goffs: 6s in melee generate additionnal attack.
Bad Moons: Reroll 1s in shooting phase
Evil Sunz: +1" move, advance and charge. No -1 penalty when advancing and firing assault weapons
Death Skullz: 6+ invulnerable save army-wide. Some sort of reroll mechanic (à la Salamanders?) EDIT: clarified in the video as a re-roll to hit, wound or damage.
Snakebites: 6+ FNP Freebooterz: +1 to hit when a Freebooterz unit destroyed a unit earlier in the turn.
Blood Axes: Gain cover in the open. Can shoot or charge after falling back.
Perfect Organism wrote: Rumoured traits from 4chan:
Goffs: 6s in melee generate additionnal attack.
Bad Moons: Reroll 1s in shooting phase
Evil Sunz: +1" move, advance and charge. No -1 penalty when advancing and firing assault weapons
Death Skullz: 6+ invulnerable save army-wide. Some sort of reroll mechanic (à la Salamanders?) EDIT: clarified in the video as a re-roll to hit, wound or damage.
Snakebites: 6+ FNP Freebooterz: +1 to hit when a Freebooterz unit destroyed a unit earlier in the turn.
Blood Axes: Gain cover in the open. Can shoot or charge after falling back.
EDIT: I'm inclined to say this makes freebootaz look like the best option, with evil suns and deff skulls also seeming strong. Since I've been painting my boys mostly as freebootas and deff skulls plus some red vehicles, I'm pretty happy with that.
Evil Sunz - +1 to movement, advance and charge. Fire Assault weapons when advancing with no penalty.
Goffs - 6s to hit in melee generate an extra attack.
Bad Moonz - Reroll 1s to hit in shooting phase.
Blood Axes - Can leave combat and still shoot/charge and gain cover in the open.
Snakebites - 6+++
Deffskulls - 6++ and can reroll a hit, wound or damage roll each time it shoots or fights.
Freebootas - +1 to hit when enemy unit is killed by a friendly Freeboota unit.
The squig buggies are apparently called - "Ruckatrukk Squig Buggies".
Wartrike is apparently a 'hero' (HQ?) model and I suspect is the suspiciously large Ork in background of Dragster pic.
Mekshop is "take the highest possible roll for weapons that are Dx shots" for vehicles nearby.
I'm getting seriously hyped. The stratagems and some of the units seem to have great synergy. I love that some of the stratagems are fluffy too.
The only negative is the lack of Characters on bike entries. That kinda sucks but if we're getting this Wartrike it might not matter anyway. It's a shame the Evil Sunz Clan trait suits infantry and slower models more than others but it is what it is.
Sounds like Ghaz might be the Gulliman of Orks; which means our Klan choice will be very heavily influenced...
Ramming Speed is cool though, always loved doing things like that - and now the rules are back for it.
Did they say anything about ‘Ard Boyz? Given the “looted” stratagem, and the Chapter house thing, I’d be willing to bet they’re not showing up.
Also, 20pl is a Shadowsword- in terms of what can be deep struck; but I’m not complaining. I’m forseeing 2x30 Boyz squads (Evil Sunz), paired with the “Get stuck in” stratagem being the go to most of the time; that, or Tankbustas for anti-vehicle. (Edit: moving to bottom of post)
I second wondering if smaller boyz units got buffed at all; but as long as the 20+ = +1a is around, that’s simply not happening.
Dakkadakkadakka armywide is cool; not the most effective, but fun. I’m worried that Ork shooting isn’t going to get a buff though, simply because of that. Orks should never shoot less than imperial armies, or others, as a baseline. I want others to be envious of Orks shooting quantity, not the other way around - will we get a 20/40shot punisher Gatling gun? Doubt it.
The always hitting on 6s will likely come after our release, which is fine; but Orks are balanced around Bs5, but will always be hitting on Bs6+; just make us damn 6+ already and balance around that, since it’s the way the editions going. Losing 50% of your shots to a -1 sucks.
Oh, nevermind that even a simple -1 means our army trait (dakkadakkadakka) is actually unusable, LOL.
I’m fine with Orks being mid tier at best - I don’t want band wagoners; I just want a decently designed codex. Consider me cautiously optimistic; even though my more critical side says this won’t fix any major, underlying issues.
EDIT: Points is not PL. 30x1 Boyz is 13PL, so you can’t double up. 30+10 Boyz is 13+5PL, so you could mob them upon landing. Also, battlescribe is saying 10 Tankbustas+2 squids is 7 PL, so could take 2 squads plus a minimum squad (4pl) as well. - I should be using he index, not PL; but it’s what I have access to right now. 30 Boyz and a Weirdboy (for Warpath) is 13+4 though... that sounds good, if you can make the charge; you'll have a massive overload of attacks - which should couple nicely with the "fight x2" stratagem; clear out the first wall, consolodate into the second. Add in a second Weirdboy for 'Ere we go! and you could get two squads close up, real quick. Also, 30 Grots+1 runtherd is 4+1PL. You can bet I'm planning on deploying 120 Grots+4 runtherds to their front line. It won't be super effective, but damn if it shouldn't tie things up - all at the cost of 464 points ((90+26)*4)!
Evil Sunz - +1 to movement, advance and charge. Fire Assault weapons when advancing with no penalty.
Goffs - 6s to hit in melee generate an extra attack.
Bad Moonz - Reroll 1s to hit in shooting phase.
Blood Axes - Can leave combat and still shoot/charge and gain cover in the open.
Snakebites - 6+++
Deffskulls - 6++ and can reroll a hit, wound or damage roll each time it shoots or fights.
Freebootas - +1 to hit when enemy unit is killed by a friendly Freeboota unit.
The squig buggies are apparently called - "Ruckatrukk Squig Buggies".
Wartrike is apparently a 'hero' (HQ?) model and I suspect is the suspiciously large Ork in background of Dragster pic.
Mekshop is "take the highest possible roll for weapons that are Dx shots" for vehicles nearby.
I'm getting seriously hyped. The stratagems and some of the units seem to have great synergy. I love that some of the stratagems are fluffy too.
The only negative is the lack of Characters on bike entries. That kinda sucks but if we're getting this Wartrike it might not matter anyway. It's a shame the Evil Sunz Clan trait suits infantry and slower models more than others but it is what it is.
Agreed, shame about the characters on bikes and the klan trait for Evil Sunz, which is just wrong imo.
But man, all those stratagems seem FUN
Dakkadakkadakka is probably going to be on an unmodified hit roll of 6 since that wording is starting to slip in more and more in 8th now. (I think SW has it and IK has it in several places)
I do hope they keep trukkboyz in mind with the new 'dex though..
Yeah, but the effect is not nearly good enough to warrant the cost as it stands, and further, the whole of the ork army is built in a way such that units are taken so they wont fit. Hell some models on the ork line literally wont even fit if you try.
Id love to see it 'project' a line on the table anywhere within 8 inches, and all shooting that goes across that line is subject to the save.
I don't care what you are doing, but I'm going to deep strike my bloodaxe battlewagon with 20 boyz inside (20 PL!), deff rolla the gak out of something with 3d6 charge and then disembark&disengage next turn to do ramm&roll something else while the boyz start messing up the enemy army.
Meanwhile I'll have my lootas sitting on a mek workshop and shooting 45+7.5 shots every turn. In cover, because bloodaxe.
Kap'n Krump wrote: I think dakkadakka armywide is perfectly fair, I've been saying that since the stratagem came out. I hope that's true.
I think the mek shop is pure BS. If it's not, that + KMKs is going to be straight broken.
Grot shield sounds plausible, funny as hell, and useful as crap.
A little dissapointed if those are indeed the klan traits, but I suppose they are decent.
Well the mek shop is a unit, no? Sort of like the forgeshrine for IK (which is also the absolute worst unit in 8th, bar none, at 90ish points. Although that one would be bad at free)
Anyways, if the mek shop is like 50 points and it maxes out a models shots that doesn't seem implausible to me. It's meant for the battlewagons and such I'd imagine
Oh, also note that a dakkajet with the new fly stratagem aiming all guns at a flyer is now hitting on 3+... and getting additional shots on 4+.
Take a flyer detachment as freebootas and you might even get the dakkajet up to 2+, getting extra shots on 3+ and turn some unit with fly into swiss cheese.
Jidmah wrote: Oh, also note that a dakkajet with the new fly stratagem aiming all guns at a flyer is now hitting on 3+... and getting additional shots on 4+.
Take a flyer detachment as freebootas and you might even get the dakkajet up to 2+, getting extra shots on 3+ and turn some unit with fly into swiss cheese.
As I said, pretty sure the dakkadakkadakka rule is going to be on unmodified hit rolls of 6. Otherwise it's barely ever going to come into effect. That means the extra shots wouldn't be enabled on 4+, I could be wrong of course..
Jidmah wrote: Oh, also note that a dakkajet with the new fly stratagem aiming all guns at a flyer is now hitting on 3+... and getting additional shots on 4+.
Take a flyer detachment as freebootas and you might even get the dakkajet up to 2+, getting extra shots on 3+ and turn some unit with fly into swiss cheese.
As I said, pretty sure the dakkadakkadakka rule is going to be on unmodified hit rolls of 6. Otherwise it's barely ever going to come into effect. That means the extra shots wouldn't be enabled on 4+, I could be wrong of course..
Gives a cute synergy with Freebootaz if its 6+ though.
Freeboota Dakkajet using the Long Uncontrolled Bursts stratagem on an enemy flyer...hits on 3s extra shots on 4s pretty cute.
davou wrote: Yeah, but the effect is not nearly good enough to warrant the cost as it stands, and further, the whole of the ork army is built in a way such that units are taken so they wont fit. Hell some models on the ork line literally wont even fit if you try.
I believe that (confusingly) 'entirely within x inches' actually means every model must be within x inches, not that every part of every model must be within it. So long as some of your base is inside the bubble, you should get the benefit.
rumor is the hq models without models are oging.... I am going to be sad to see the painbody on a bike, warboss on a bike and kff meks on bikes gone as I have spend a lot of time on my conversions for all of the above. I know the index will still be a thing perhaps but if the points change they may not be worth it.
G00fySmiley wrote: rumor is the hq models without models are oging.... I am going to be sad to see the painbody on a bike, warboss on a bike and kff meks on bikes gone as I have spend a lot of time on my conversions for all of the above. I know the index will still be a thing perhaps but if the points change they may not be worth it.
Don't forget index units are still going to be legal. So, you can still take them, though they may lack some wargear options.
G00fySmiley wrote: rumor is the hq models without models are oging.... I am going to be sad to see the painbody on a bike, warboss on a bike and kff meks on bikes gone as I have spend a lot of time on my conversions for all of the above. I know the index will still be a thing perhaps but if the points change they may not be worth it.
Which really bothers me because we basically dont have HQ models to begin with. I cant walk into a GW store and buy an HQ as it is... Our only Warboss models are webstore only (and hes old as hell and metal) or Grukk but you need to buy his boss mob. Maybe theyll make a painboy an HQ again, but it still leaves us with basically no warboss model. Thats not mentioning big meks either
Mr.Church13 wrote: Funny how no other army gets punished with the wholly within garbage.
Daisy chain synapse to ignore LD all you want but god forbid Orks get a 5 up.
Not every dasy chain is the same though. LD, FnP, WAAAAGH charge, Ghaz and probably some other stuff I am not remembering all work , just like it does for every one else. KFF and If I recall void shields are the exception exceptions.
Nothing changes as far as I can see that's worth grumbling over. What about the Nidz beastie that does a cover buff? no idea how that works or if it was faq'd.
I am going to be doing my Blood Axe Kommando rush again apparently.
45 Kommandos, deep striking turn 2 with a battlewagon and 20 boyz inside (20PL) at the same time that 30 Boyz deepstrike 95 models in 5 squads doing a 9' charge with rerolls Ohh and the wagon gets 3D6 to tie up even more units turn 2. I'll be a happy Kommando again
Which really bothers me because we basically dont have HQ models to begin with. I cant walk into a GW store and buy an HQ as it is... Our only Warboss models are webstore only (and hes old as hell and metal) or Grukk but you need to buy his boss mob. Maybe theyll make a painboy an HQ again, but it still leaves us with basically no warboss model. Thats not mentioning big meks either
I agree, it sucks that we are "losing" (I'm guessing Index-only means they're gone for real in 9th) some if our precious few HQ options. However let's not forget that it seems very likely that we're getting a new one who does seem to be mounted on the new Wartrike model that specifically mentioned in the video. I'd assume that also means we're getting a footslogging version of the big guy as well then
Which really bothers me because we basically dont have HQ models to begin with. I cant walk into a GW store and buy an HQ as it is... Our only Warboss models are webstore only (and hes old as hell and metal) or Grukk but you need to buy his boss mob. Maybe theyll make a painboy an HQ again, but it still leaves us with basically no warboss model. Thats not mentioning big meks either
I agree, it sucks that we are "losing" (I'm guessing Index-only means they're gone for real in 9th) some if our precious few HQ options. However let's not forget that it seems very likely that we're getting a new one who does seem to be mounted on the new Wartrike model that specifically mentioned in the video. I'd assume that also means we're getting a footslogging version of the big guy as well then
Hopefully, though it sounded like the wartrike was a seperate thing from the warboss. no word on if we get a footslogging version of the big guy or not. If Ghazzy is really "amazing" Hopefully we get a new model to go with it. His current one is old and currently smaller than Grukk (despite being in MA!)
Also I suspect that the 20PL thing will be limited to 1 unit (or will get FAQed to be 1 unit). It would be crazy otherwise. I wonder if Da Jump will officially be able to be used turn 1 into the enemys deployment zone. I know that FB post confirmed it but it would be nice to get it in writing in the codex
Which really bothers me because we basically dont have HQ models to begin with. I cant walk into a GW store and buy an HQ as it is... Our only Warboss models are webstore only (and hes old as hell and metal) or Grukk but you need to buy his boss mob. Maybe theyll make a painboy an HQ again, but it still leaves us with basically no warboss model. Thats not mentioning big meks either
I agree, it sucks that we are "losing" (I'm guessing Index-only means they're gone for real in 9th) some if our precious few HQ options. However let's not forget that it seems very likely that we're getting a new one who does seem to be mounted on the new Wartrike model that specifically mentioned in the video. I'd assume that also means we're getting a footslogging version of the big guy as well then
Hopefully, though it sounded like the wartrike was a seperate thing from the warboss. no word on if we get a footslogging version of the big guy or not. If Ghazzy is really "amazing" Hopefully we get a new model to go with it. His current one is old and currently smaller than Grukk (despite being in MA!)
Also I suspect that the 20PL thing will be limited to 1 unit (or will get FAQed to be 1 unit). It would be crazy otherwise. I wonder if Da Jump will officially be able to be used turn 1 into the enemys deployment zone. I know that FB post confirmed it but it would be nice to get it in writing in the codex
You're probably right; it'll be one unit max. - That said, if the rumors are to be believed... it used to be "an entire army"; so there's a small possibility it may just be 20PL worth of units. I mean, what other army has been rumored to have 20PL, as opposed to 1/3 units?
I really, really hope it's 20PL; Man, 4x30Grots+4 Runtherds tying up everything. Or... 10+10+5 Tankbustas, to help keep them alive. Or... 30 Boyz+Weirdboy (Warpath), coupled with a second squad of Boyz via 'Ere we go!.
Man, theory-crafting 20PL is fun; and I should know better than to get excited about something before release...
I wonder if they'll fix Battlewagons and "Mobile Fortress"; I doubt they will, but one can dream.
I am just hoping somehow the trike HQ model can be a big mek, warboss or painboy but I am probably being optimistic. I could convert my current models to trikes easily enough or run them as counts as on bigger bases.
Which really bothers me because we basically dont have HQ models to begin with. I cant walk into a GW store and buy an HQ as it is... Our only Warboss models are webstore only (and hes old as hell and metal) or Grukk but you need to buy his boss mob. Maybe theyll make a painboy an HQ again, but it still leaves us with basically no warboss model. Thats not mentioning big meks either
I agree, it sucks that we are "losing" (I'm guessing Index-only means they're gone for real in 9th) some if our precious few HQ options. However let's not forget that it seems very likely that we're getting a new one who does seem to be mounted on the new Wartrike model that specifically mentioned in the video. I'd assume that also means we're getting a footslogging version of the big guy as well then
Hopefully, though it sounded like the wartrike was a seperate thing from the warboss. no word on if we get a footslogging version of the big guy or not. If Ghazzy is really "amazing" Hopefully we get a new model to go with it. His current one is old and currently smaller than Grukk (despite being in MA!)
Also I suspect that the 20PL thing will be limited to 1 unit (or will get FAQed to be 1 unit). It would be crazy otherwise. I wonder if Da Jump will officially be able to be used turn 1 into the enemys deployment zone. I know that FB post confirmed it but it would be nice to get it in writing in the codex
You're probably right; it'll be one unit max. - That said, if the rumors are to be believed... it used to be "an entire army"; so there's a small possibility it may just be 20PL worth of units. I mean, what other army has been rumored to have 20PL, as opposed to 1/3 units?
I really, really hope it's 20PL; Man, 4x30Grots+4 Runtherds tying up everything. Or... 10+10+5 Tankbustas, to help keep them alive. Or... 30 Boyz+Weirdboy (Warpath), coupled with a second squad of Boyz via 'Ere we go!.
Man, theory-crafting 20PL is fun; and I should know better than to get excited about something before release...
I wonder if they'll fix Battlewagons and "Mobile Fortress"; I doubt they will, but one can dream.
its possible it will be 20PL on release, but I wouldnt expect it to live past the first FAQ after the codex comes out
I really, really hope it's 20PL; Man, 4x30Grots+4 Runtherds tying up everything. Or... 10+10+5 Tankbustas, to help keep them alive. Or... 30 Boyz+Weirdboy (Warpath), coupled with a second squad of Boyz via 'Ere we go!.
Man, theory-crafting 20PL is fun; and I should know better than to get excited about something before release...
I wonder if they'll fix Battlewagons and "Mobile Fortress"; I doubt they will, but one can dream.
Well those 4x30 grots will be arriving on T2 so...If you want to tie things up just da jump 60" wide wall on T1. That's what I do much to my amusement.
The stratagems look good. The clan traits I'm slightly disappointed with, but they're really not bad and without knowing what else might of changed it's hard to judge them (if they're even accurate).
The only one that seems to be bad is Bad Moons, but even then they might be able to make an effective KMK gunline based around the rumored new Mek shop.
There's a stratagem that lets orks keep 20 power level off the board and deepstrike in anywhere on the board more than 9" away from the enemy.
Green tide stratagem, Take a boyz unit under half strength and set it up wholly within 6" of table and more than 9" away from the enemy (Don't know if it also replenishes the unit ála tide of traitors)
Grot shield stratagem, when suffering a wound on a 2+ a grot unit within 3" suffers a wound instead. Grots have to be closer to the firing unit
Ramming speed stratagem, ork vehicles can charge 3d6" and does mortal wounds when it successfully charges
Long uncrontrolled bursts stratagem, add +1 for flyers against other flyers
Looted stratagem, ork infantry units gain +1 Save when a vehicle is destroyed near them.
Get stuck in stratagem, ork infantry can pile in and fight again in CC
Another thing to keep in mind is that the teleport stratagem might be clan specific (probably blood axes)
We really need to see the exact wording on that 20PL stratagem, because...
If Trukks are 5PL each, you could conceivably drop 4 trukks, each with 10Tankbustas+2squigs onto the enemy lines. (Or 12*4 other Shooty units). - Sure, that’s about 1000 points, but it’s fun.
Do any of the Tau/IG stratagems work on units in vehicles?
I’m pretty sure they don’t, but the wording MIGHT be wonky enough to allow it... if so, I’m really curious about that Blood Axe +1 to-hit after killing a whole unit; I like the sound of that and 40 Tankbustas.
Of course, will it be strong enough to destroy all the important vehicles? We’ll see how all the wordings, weapons, and points end up.
The 20PL teleport strat I suspect will either change with the first FAQ or will be different to what is presented here.
Didn't we have a rumour earlier that the codex was delayed because of an ability to bring too many units on opponents too quickly?
Whoever made the point about Mek Workshop and the KMK makes a very, very good point. It does seem, unless there have been changes to the KMK to be a little too good. Or perhaps the Mek shop can only affect certain units?
I really, really like the stratagems, particularly the vehicle charging one. It's ace. So is the looted armour one and the grot shields though I suspect there will be limitations with the latter (how can a grot possibly shield a stompa?). Useful and fluffy, which is ideal.
The trike must be a replacement for the Boss/Mek/Painboy on bike and I suspect offers a buff to bike and buggy units.
Given the size of the boss on the trike I think it's an inevitability that we get a new Ghaz, if not with this release then soon.
E - is anyone surprised about the lack of Prime-Orks? The rumour has only been on Ghaz becoming a Prime, not a new set of Boyz.
I dont see what you guys are saying about those being bad strategems.
The Evil Sunz one makes me imagine an army full of shootas and skorchas flying down the board roasting everything before WAAAAGHing in their face. Big Trakk with Skorchas out the wazzoo.
That blood axe one with kommandos, holy crap. Those would be some damn durable boys.
The goff one is atrocious, so I hope ghaz doesnt end up shoehorning a goff army.
I even like the snakebite and the deffskullz one since they make daisy chaining less of a thing and give HQs an actual save.
They are a hell of a lot better than the nothing we have now.
1" move + 1" advance + shooting every turn. That's 10.5" movement on a footslogging boy plus shooting or assault if you've got a boss. How many skorchas can I shove in a list? That might even make a skorcha dred a possibility.
TedNugent wrote: I dont see what you guys are saying about those being bad strategems.
The Evil Sunz one makes me imagine an army full of shootas and skorchas flying down the board roasting everything before WAAAAGHing in their face. Big Trakk with Skorchas out the wazzoo.
That blood axe one with kommandos, holy crap. Those would be some damn durable boys.
The goff one is atrocious, so I hope ghaz doesnt end up shoehorning a goff army.
I even like the snakebite and the deffskullz one since they make daisy chaining less of a thing and give HQs an actual save.
They are a hell of a lot better than the nothing we have now.
1" move + 1" advance + shooting every turn. That's 10.5" movement on a footslogging boy plus shooting or assault if you've got a boss. How many skorchas can I shove in a list? That might even make a skorcha dred a possibility.
Goff one looks a lot better when you realize Nob With Waagh Banner exists to make that bad boy a 5+.
TedNugent wrote: I dont see what you guys are saying about those being bad strategems.
The Evil Sunz one makes me imagine an army full of shootas and skorchas flying down the board roasting everything before WAAAAGHing in their face. Big Trakk with Skorchas out the wazzoo.
That blood axe one with kommandos, holy crap. Those would be some damn durable boys.
The goff one is atrocious, so I hope ghaz doesnt end up shoehorning a goff army.
I even like the snakebite and the deffskullz one since they make daisy chaining less of a thing and give HQs an actual save.
They are a hell of a lot better than the nothing we have now.
1" move + 1" advance + shooting every turn. That's 10.5" movement on a footslogging boy plus shooting or assault if you've got a boss. How many skorchas can I shove in a list? That might even make a skorcha dred a possibility.
Goff one looks a lot better when you realize Nob With Waagh Banner exists to make that bad boy a 5+.
unless its on a natural six only, plus side it can't easily be negated either
Billagio wrote: I dont think the clan rules are bad per say, theyre just pretty boring and uninspired. Atleast theyre useful (if true)
Yeah bit bland and biggest issues I have is that evil sun one promotes boyz and walkers which feels counter intuitive and snakebites is awful in terms of taking tons of time so not that feasible on time limited enviroment.
Currently I have 4 clans. Goffs, dethskulls, evil sunz and bad moons. Goff is bit of this and that but with nob banner could be nasty. Evil sunz is big winner as that trait is custom made for basic ork boyz. Dethskulls ain't too bad. 6++ could be worse. Too bad reroll isn't for any dice for unit as lootas would kill for ability to reroll that d3(without CP) but ah well.
Bad moons is bit so-so but then again first ork unit I tend to da jump is 30 shoota boyz that are already in bad moon colours. With the dakka dakka rerolling 1's could be handy enough.
Billagio wrote: I dont think the clan rules are bad per say, theyre just pretty boring and uninspired. Atleast theyre useful (if true)
Yeah bit bland and biggest issues I have is that evil sun one promotes boyz and walkers which feels counter intuitive and snakebites is awful in terms of taking tons of time so not that feasible on time limited enviroment.
Currently I have 4 clans. Goffs, dethskulls, evil sunz and bad moons. Goff is bit of this and that but with nob banner could be nasty. Evil sunz is big winner as that trait is custom made for basic ork boyz. Dethskulls ain't too bad. 6++ could be worse. Too bad reroll isn't for any dice for unit as lootas would kill for ability to reroll that d3(without CP) but ah well.
Bad moons is bit so-so but then again first ork unit I tend to da jump is 30 shoota boyz that are already in bad moon colours. With the dakka dakka rerolling 1's could be handy enough.
Agreed they all have thier place, but I dont really see taking a full army of the same clan except for evil suns. All the others are very situational depending on what unit is using it (which I guess is the point of the clans) but that doesnt translate over well to the detachments
TedNugent wrote: I dont see what you guys are saying about those being bad strategems.
The Evil Sunz one makes me imagine an army full of shootas and skorchas flying down the board roasting everything before WAAAAGHing in their face. Big Trakk with Skorchas out the wazzoo.
That blood axe one with kommandos, holy crap. Those would be some damn durable boys.
The goff one is atrocious, so I hope ghaz doesnt end up shoehorning a goff army.
I even like the snakebite and the deffskullz one since they make daisy chaining less of a thing and give HQs an actual save.
They are a hell of a lot better than the nothing we have now.
1" move + 1" advance + shooting every turn. That's 10.5" movement on a footslogging boy plus shooting or assault if you've got a boss. How many skorchas can I shove in a list? That might even make a skorcha dred a possibility.
Evil Sunz is clearly the best.
Blood Axe one is real solid, but competes with KFF for a 5+; also, Kommands+BA = 'Ard Boyz.
Goff one is... a melee version of DakkaDakkaDakka; so I don't hate it - but Orks should be overkilling most things in melee without it already. Ghaz will absoluetely shoe-horn a Goffs army; he'll be the Gulliman of Goffs (puke). Either he's strong enough in himself to make up for a weaker army trait (though if +1 to hit gets in the mix somehow, it's not necessarily terrible), Goffs will definitely be run. If not, well...
Snakebites > Deffskullz; on the basis that you can get a Inv5+ from KFF on any target, but not a 6+++FNP on any target, only boyz. I'm imagining that the die RR is a toned down version of the Salamander trait; and given that most Orks will be in large squads, so re-rolling 1 die is kind of whatever. Might be good for a vehicle based army, however...
Freebooters has real potential, but need to see the wording of the ability. Most likely is "after a Freebooter model destroys a unit, pick one ork unit within 12" of the Freebooter; that ork unit gets +1 to hit until the end of the phase".
Agreed they all have thier place, but I dont really see taking a full army of the same clan except for evil suns. All the others are very situational depending on what unit is using it (which I guess is the point of the clans) but that doesnt translate over well to the detachments
Not too worried about det's. 3 klans n one army is enough and ork hq have enough cheap and useful HQ's to satisfy. Troops have cheap toolbox grots to fill up troop slots while providing cheap chaff which has value of it's own. 30 bad moon shoota boyz and 2x10 grots for example doesn't seem that bad. Depending on how CP hungry orks are patrol is also valid choise.
Goff one looks a lot better when you realize Nob With Waagh Banner exists to make that bad boy a 5+.
unless its on a natural six only, plus side it can't easily be negated either
It's not a natural six for any other army in the game, even if they can stack on modifiers.
Additional attacks are going to be pretty sweet for nauts and stompas with their double-profile weapons. Just like Mortarion with Death to False Emperor.
Snakebites > Deffskullz; on the basis that you can get a Inv5+ from KFF on any target, but not a 6+++FNP on any target, only boyz. I'm imagining that the die RR is a toned down version of the Salamander trait; and given that most Orks will be in large squads, so re-rolling 1 die is kind of whatever. Might be good for a vehicle based army, however...
OTOH if you want to protect boyz with 5++ then for ~200 boyz you basically will need 2-3 KFF's. If any boyz are outside then that will get swatted so KFF isn't being that helpful. Dethskull allows skipping that 2-3KFF tax.
This is not terrible. Orks typically have a very high volume of attacks and negative modifiers are rare in melee so I can see a lot of use for this as well as strong synergy with the WAAAGGHHH banner. 20 boys attacking a unit is 80 attacks and with a banner near by 1/3 will trigger additional attacks that hit on twos. That's a LOT of choppy. Smaller squads however won't gain very much and power klaws will never get it unless it's unmodified sixes in which case the banner won't do diddly.
Bad Moons: Reroll 1s in shooting phase
This one is pretty lame. Ork's have a high volume of shots so that's plenty of opportunities to roll ones to re-roll, but then you have to roll that into a 5. It might salvage a few hits, but it wont do nearly as well as the goff trait in generating raw volume.
Evil Sunz: +1" move, advance and charge. No -1 penalty when advancing and firing assault weapons.
This is a big winner. +1 movement on boys is a really big deal as well as the +1 advance which you'll likely always be doing. All things considered this is like adding 3 inches to your charge which is amazing as it's almost like adding a whole other d6 to the roll. The advance and shoot at no penalty is only a bonus. Combine deep striking and you get an 8 inch charge re-rollable. This could be the big winner.
Death Skullz: 6+ invulnerable save army-wide. Re-roll a single to hit wound or damage roll.
I think this is a lame duck. The half daemon save is nice, but a 6+++ is not likely going to save you . The free single re-roll per unit is good for a power klaw in a unit, but not enough to outweigh the other options.
Snakebites: 6+ FNP
This one seems solid and reliable. In high body count armies or high wound models this will come in handy. It effectively increases the wounds of your army by 16%. If it has any specific synergy with the pain boyz remain to be seen. As is they would be useless as the FNP would not stack, but if the rule specifies it does then that adds a lot of beef. FNP on a vehicle and ork boys could be great as we see with dark eldar and how good it is on their 6-10 wound vehicles.
Freebooterz: +1 to hit when a Freebooterz unit destroyed a unit earlier in the turn.
This one is kind of hard to gauge due to the ambiguity of it. If you kill one thing you just get an army wide +1 to hit? Is that for shooting and melee? Shooting only? Units in an aura? It's really vague right now so it's hard to comment on. If it really is kill a unit and get army wide +1 to hit then it will be brutal. It will make ork shooting a threat and melee even more killy. I can't say too much on it yet though.
Blood Axes: Gain cover in the open. Can shoot or charge after falling back.
This one, alongside the Evil Sunz, I think will be a bread winner. Getting cover in the open means a great deal for increasing saves. Walkers and the like will be sporting a 2 up save which will be great for keeping them alive and grant them a respectable 5+ against ap-3 lascannons and the like. Hordes of boys running up the board with a 5+ armor would also be of great use especially when combined with a painboy. It's important to note this would only work against shooting though so it's not a straight +1 save and is ignored by anything that ignores cover. The fallback and shoot and charge (or charge or shoot, I've heard both) would also be nice for shooty boys and to refresh any charge bonuses you may have to ensure you swing first.
As is I see four of them actually being pretty darn solid options with no clear #1 going off of clan traits alone. Stratagems and relics as well as specific characters are yet to be seen fully so that may very well change the dynamic. If Ghazzy is the Guiliman of the Orks that could very well place Goffs on top by virtue of him alone.
Snakebites > Deffskullz; on the basis that you can get a Inv5+ from KFF on any target, but not a 6+++FNP on any target, only boyz. I'm imagining that the die RR is a toned down version of the Salamander trait; and given that most Orks will be in large squads, so re-rolling 1 die is kind of whatever. Might be good for a vehicle based army, however...
OTOH if you want to protect boyz with 5++ then for ~200 boyz you basically will need 2-3 KFF's. If any boyz are outside then that will get swatted so KFF isn't being that helpful. Dethskull allows skipping that 2-3KFF tax.
that and an enemy with snipers can drop the KFF mek without a vast amount of trouble if they want to, not everyone can but removing the ability for an enemy to do that has value.
My lot are painted as Blood Axes, and staying that way regardless, do find myself hoping the 'counts as in cover' is like the Tyranid one and applies to everything, possibly until you advance or charge, useful for battle wagons and trukks, oh and deff dreads
This is not terrible. Orks typically have a very high volume of attacks and negative modifiers are rare in melee so I can see a lot of use for this as well as strong synergy with the WAAAGGHHH banner. 20 boys attacking a unit is 80 attacks and with a banner near by 1/3 will trigger additional attacks that hit on twos. That's a LOT of choppy. Smaller squads however won't gain very much and power klaws will never get it unless it's unmodified sixes in which case the banner won't do diddly.
OTOH smaller squads actually benefit more often as big squads will overkill target ANYWAY. And frankly I don't get to charge with big squads often. Even 20 squad charging is rare due to enemy casualties. They fire squad <20 and then move toward next. So this helps compensating casualties on small squads.
This one seems solid and reliable. In high body count armies or high wound models this will come in handy. It effectively increases the wounds of your army by 16%. If it has any specific synergy with the pain boyz remain to be seen. As is they would be useless as the FNP would not stack, but if the rule specifies it does then that adds a lot of beef. FNP on a vehicle and ork boys could be great as we see with dark eldar and how good it is on their 6-10 wound vehicles.
Chance is same as dethskulls...Except dethskull isn't negated by multidamage weapon.
Plus in tournament unviable. It takes tons of time with dark eldars. 200 models rolling 2-3 dice per model? Yeah that's going to take a time.
This is not terrible. Orks typically have a very high volume of attacks and negative modifiers are rare in melee so I can see a lot of use for this as well as strong synergy with the WAAAGGHHH banner. 20 boys attacking a unit is 80 attacks and with a banner near by 1/3 will trigger additional attacks that hit on twos. That's a LOT of choppy. Smaller squads however won't gain very much and power klaws will never get it unless it's unmodified sixes in which case the banner won't do diddly.
OTOH smaller squads actually benefit more often as big squads will overkill target ANYWAY. And frankly I don't get to charge with big squads often. Even 20 squad charging is rare due to enemy casualties. They fire squad <20 and then move toward next. So this helps compensating casualties on small squads.
This one seems solid and reliable. In high body count armies or high wound models this will come in handy. It effectively increases the wounds of your army by 16%. If it has any specific synergy with the pain boyz remain to be seen. As is they would be useless as the FNP would not stack, but if the rule specifies it does then that adds a lot of beef. FNP on a vehicle and ork boys could be great as we see with dark eldar and how good it is on their 6-10 wound vehicles.
Chance is same as dethskulls...Except dethskull isn't negated by multidamage weapon.
Plus in tournament unviable. It takes tons of time with dark eldars. 200 models rolling 2-3 dice per model? Yeah that's going to take a time.
at this point i am just amazed when people do not use a dice rolling app for hordes. GW even has their official one in case they are worried about cheating. have never seen a tournament organizer ban the official gw app.
This is not terrible. Orks typically have a very high volume of attacks and negative modifiers are rare in melee so I can see a lot of use for this as well as strong synergy with the WAAAGGHHH banner. 20 boys attacking a unit is 80 attacks and with a banner near by 1/3 will trigger additional attacks that hit on twos. That's a LOT of choppy. Smaller squads however won't gain very much and power klaws will never get it unless it's unmodified sixes in which case the banner won't do diddly.
OTOH smaller squads actually benefit more often as big squads will overkill target ANYWAY. And frankly I don't get to charge with big squads often. Even 20 squad charging is rare due to enemy casualties. They fire squad <20 and then move toward next. So this helps compensating casualties on small squads.
This one seems solid and reliable. In high body count armies or high wound models this will come in handy. It effectively increases the wounds of your army by 16%. If it has any specific synergy with the pain boyz remain to be seen. As is they would be useless as the FNP would not stack, but if the rule specifies it does then that adds a lot of beef. FNP on a vehicle and ork boys could be great as we see with dark eldar and how good it is on their 6-10 wound vehicles.
Chance is same as dethskulls...Except dethskull isn't negated by multidamage weapon.
Plus in tournament unviable. It takes tons of time with dark eldars. 200 models rolling 2-3 dice per model? Yeah that's going to take a time.
The FNP I find superior to the invuln because you may very well get your normal save and the FNP. Also if I was shot by a lascannon I would honesty rather have the 6+ FNP than a 6+ invuln because 5/6 times the invuln will do nothing where as the FNP will have a greater chance of actually mattering by reducing the damage you take by one. This would also synergize will with a kff bubble and if it stacks with painboys for a 5+++ thats amazing or if it doesn't that's at least points saved by not paying for the painboy.
at this point i am just amazed when people do not use a dice rolling app for hordes. GW even has their official one in case they are worried about cheating. have never seen a tournament organizer ban the official gw app.
Dice app wouldn't be much help since FNP would consist easily dozens of 2-3 rolls that are together. So that's not say 60 dice together counting how many 6's you roll. Opponent first has to potentially roll for damage, then you roll 1-6 dice, repeat...Dice app or not that's going to eat a ton of time.
Besides as for cheating...You know without taking in opponents phone and doing specific check there's no way to actually know does he USE official app or custom made that looks like it. I could do one if I so wanted...If you want to avoid cheating with app in tournament for sure pretty much only way is for tournament to PROVIDE phones/tablets with that software to be used. Realistic? I don't think so!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tibs Ironblood wrote: The FNP I find superior to the invuln because you may very well get your normal save and the FNP. Also if I was shot by a lascannon I would honesty rather have the 6+ FNP than a 6+ invuln because 5/6 times the invuln will do nothing where as the FNP will have a greater chance of actually mattering by reducing the damage you take by one. This would also synergize will with a kff bubble and if it stacks with painboys for a 5+++ thats amazing or if it doesn't that's at least points saved by not paying for the painboy.
Average reduction vs lascannon is actually same. However inv save will make boy survive 1/6 time. FNP more like 1/36(first opponent rolling 1, then you rolling 6). Rest of the time it adds up to lots of dice rolling with little difference.
And deth skull saves you from buying 2-3 mek's with KFF.
This is pure wishlisting, but it might be cool if they had a bundle with the Mek Gun and the rumored Mek Shop to save money on them.
It also might be interesting if the rumored HQ Wartrike was almost more like a chariot vehicle for any Ork character that allowed the character to hide and fight as if a normal character on a bike but then also the character could disembark.
Ok, so people are writing off the Bad Moons as being a little lame, so I decided to run the numbers when both their trait and dakkadakkadakka are in effect: and it would seem that they get the equivalent of BS 4+ (i.e. they land half of their original number of shots).
Since I kinda like the bad moons, I think it turned out pretty good.
Dandelion wrote: Ok, so people are writing off the Bad Moons as being a little lame, so I decided to run the numbers when both their trait and dakkadakkadakka are in effect: and it would seem that they get the equivalent of BS 4+ (i.e. they land half of their original number of shots).
Since I kinda like the bad moons, I think it turned out pretty good.
I think bad moons is fine, getting it on KMKs and lootas will be great. Would I take it as a main detachment? No, but It definitely has its place in a spearhead or something.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: If I did the math right you're correct, it's just a tiny bit worse than BS 4+. Only it takes a lot more rolling.
On the other hand all the Clans get DakkaDakkaDakka (if the rumor holds true) so the Bad Moon trait in some ways should be judged on its own.
We don't know the special warlord traits and stratagems yet though, and that could make a difference.
Agreed, I have a feeling that everyones already favorite teleport stratagem is going to be clan specific (and probably blood axe or something which will be a disappointment to everyone drooling all over Evil Sun)
I think Blood Axes are very, very strong too and might be a good contender to Evil Sunz. Ironically it might make them more maneuverable than Evil Sunz.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: The FNP I find superior to the invuln because you may very well get your normal save and the FNP. Also if I was shot by a lascannon I would honesty rather have the 6+ FNP than a 6+ invuln because 5/6 times the invuln will do nothing where as the FNP will have a greater chance of actually mattering by reducing the damage you take by one. This would also synergize will with a kff bubble and if it stacks with painboys for a 5+++ thats amazing or if it doesn't that's at least points saved by not paying for the painboy.
Average reduction vs lascannon is actually same. However inv save will make boy survive 1/6 time. FNP more like 1/36(first opponent rolling 1, then you rolling 6). Rest of the time it adds up to lots of dice rolling with little difference.
And deth skull saves you from buying 2-3 mek's with KFF.
I will admit a 6+ invuln would be better for boys against lascannons sure, but the FNP would be better against weapons that are meant for anti horde and not anti-tank or elite firepower like dissy cannons. The 6+ is also half as good as the KFF field so I'd hardly say it saves you from buying them it just makes them less effective cost ratio wise. For a big vehicle convoy you'd probably be paying up for the proper 5++ invuln and then past that you'd also get the snakebite FNP to shave a bit more off the top. I really don't see the 6++ being the best option to protect your stuff when alternatively you can give it 6+++ to ignore wounds (better protection for your hordes and things that are important and already have a 5++) or counts as being in cover from blood axes to give a straight up +1 armor save which for our 3+ and 4+ vehicles that's a pretty solid value that even if you get hit by ap-3 you'd be better or equal out a 6++ invuln anyways.
I think Blood Axes are very, very strong too and might be a good contender to Evil Sunz. Ironically it might make them more maneuverable than Evil Sunz.
Those are my two favorite klans and play styles I R Hapy Ork
As far as Badmoons klan trait...yeah it sucks. Using an absurd number (180) you get 60 hits, 30 rerolls and 30 second shots. The 30 rerolls net you 10 more hits and the 30 secondary shots get you 10 more as well with 5 more rerolls which is 1.66 more hits so 21-22ish so that brings you up to 81-82 hits which is 45% accuracy or 5% less then a 4+ to hit. However, as has already been mentioned, ALL orkz apparently get Dakka Dakka Dakka, so in reality, it is only an increase of 10 hits out of that 180 not 21 so that is a 39% accuracy rate, or 6% better then a 5+ to hit and 11% worse then a 4+ to hit
basically it sucks.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
fe40k wrote: Guys, can someone check my math please? I did a squad of [30 Shoota Boyz, +DakkaDakkaDakka, +RR1's (Bad Moons)], against MEQ (T4, Sv3+):
EDIT: My math is all wrong, and I know why.
I'll try to re-calculate; but incase someone can do it faster: Can someone calculate the total hits/increase DakkaDakkaDakka+RR1s provides to a full, 30 man, Shoota Boy squad?
60 shots = 20 hits, 10 rerolls and 10 6s to redo. the 10 extra shots = 3.3 extra hits and about 2 rolls of a 1 for 12 total rerolls which is 4 extra hits for a grand total of 27 hits which against T4 = 13.5 wounds and a 3+ save = about 4.5 Dead Marines. Or another way to look at that is 180pts of Shoota boyz killing about 60pts of Speese Mehreens which is actually perfect for where i say shooting should be (1/3rd rule, it should take 3x as much points to kill something in the shooting phase).
= 3.326 MEQ slain, base
3.326+0.055+0.563+0.093 = 4.037 MEQ slain, combined total
0.711 difference/3.326*100
= 21.377% increase
---
Math is weird, but this looks about right to me. The % increase is only useful against MEQ, not in cover; so I'd have to re-calculate for GEQ, and others... so, take it as it is, and nothing more.
Of course, it all falls apart against a -1 to-hit, so...
fe40k wrote: Guys, can someone check my math please? I did a squad of [30 Shoota Boyz, +DakkaDakkaDakka, +RR1's (Bad Moons)], against MEQ (T4, Sv3+):
EDIT: My math is all wrong, and I know why.
I'll try to re-calculate; but incase someone can do it faster: Can someone calculate the total hits/increase DakkaDakkaDakka+RR1s provides to a full, 30 man, Shoota Boy squad?
As I see it your odds of hitting are the follows:
Regular shooting = 1/3.
Regular shooting plus dakkadakkadakka. 1/3+(1/6*1/3=1/18.) =7/18.
Regular shooting plus dakkadakkadakka with reroll 1s= 7/18+(1/6*7/18=7/108)=49/108.
Rounding up: 36/108, 42/108 and 49/108.
WIth say 60 shots you go from 20, to 23.333~ to 27.222~.
I mean the way to think about it - unless there are other buffs stacked on top - is that the indicated goff and badmoon clan strats would give a 7/6 buff to melee and shooting damage respectively.
Whether that's good or not depends on whether they are efficient choices to begin with. If you are expecting say 15% damage for your points, buffing that to 17.5% still kind of sucks in the current meta.
By contrast you take say a 40% return and buff it 46%, you can see how you move from good to brokenly good (especially if you can stack two of these buffs DE style).
The problem is with various -1 to hit abilities and no sign this is being constrained, ork shooting is typically going to have crap efficiency, so making it 7/6 better may not help as much as the other traits. If the question is "what helps green tide get across the table" then the other traits seem better.
On the other hand this potentially makes baseline KMKs (49/36=36%) more efficient than in the index. Which has... potential.
Another more limited use of the Bad Moons trait would be helping prevent our Kustom Mega weapons from overheating.
If this rumor is accurate and there are no other factors at play I'm not going to be taking Bad Moons shoota boyz just because they'd spend too much time pointlessly re-rolling. I actually think it would be way more of a time sink than a 6+ FNP on Snakebites.
That would be a shame as I like Bad Moon shoota boyz. Of course I really don't know how the rest of the codex might change things and also the rumors might not be true, so I'm definitely not shelving anything yet.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Another more limited use of the Bad Moons trait would be helping prevent our Kustom Mega weapons from overheating.
If this rumor is accurate and there are no other factors at play I'm not going to be taking Bad Moons shoota boyz just because they'd spend too much time pointlessly re-rolling. I actually think it would be way more of a time sink than a 6+ FNP on Snakebites.
That would be a shame as I like Bad Moon shoota boyz. Of course I really don't know how the rest of the codex might change things and also the rumors might not be true, so I'm definitely not shelving anything yet.
I wanted Orks to roll the most dice out of any faction.
Little did I know...
Be careful what you wish for.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So if we have 20PL; there's so many options, but...
16PL = 6x Killa Kans
then
4PL = Nob w/ WAAAGH Banner, or a 7th Killa Kan
The Nob w/ Banner is much better for the attack/damage output of 6 KillaKans, but then you need to make two charge rolls instead of one. Alternatively, the 7th KillaKan could rocket forward with a charge 3d6, and get in there that way as well.
It all comes down to the exact wordings and timings of all the strategems... but I'm loving the sound of our options, at least so far. It opens up so many new avenues for units to do their job.
Hmm. So my Bad Moon Shoota boyz might be better off as Evil Suns. My Death Skulls Lootaz might be better off as Bad Moons. My Goff Boyz could go either way.
I already have Blood Axe Kommandos from Killteam, so maybe some blood axe Gretchin to fill out a Battalion? Those lil runs would sure be sneaky.
Ive been avoiding painting camouflage patterns on models, so my Kommandos are in modern military colors instead. I could go army wide with that theme.
You know what... and this will sound weird because everyone know me by now here but, apart from the loss in bike hqs, I'm pretty cool with these rumours. They're fun and useful. Not OP but not the worst. For my army setup especially (vechiles and walker army) the whole extra 6s and the likes just seems good overall as I very rarely came across -2 to hit anyway.
So, you know what.... good job gw. You have me interested. Now don't squig up the points and make our shooting somehow cost double than every other armies like you did in the index!
Eonfuzz wrote: I'm sad to see that Badmoons is meh for everything but Lootas and KMK's. I have a bunch of BM Meganobz sitting on the shelf.
Bad Moons actually sound pretty meh for Lootas as well. On the other hand, they might be okay with everything that hits on a 4+ and everything that overheats on a 1, which are significantly more units than just KMKs. Without knowing more KMKs sound particularly good for Bad Moons because they both hit on 4+ and overheat on 1s.
It's really hard to judge without knowing what the rest of the codex is like though.
Of course these are still just rumors and we don't really know.
I would wait for full rules about mek shop before counting my chickens. Remember what happened with knights. People were drooling over that terrain piece after first leaks. When we got full rules though that thing went into unit that helps OPPONENT if you use it...It's so bad opponent will gladly give you one for free every game in hopes you actually would be silly enough to use it.
Exactly, hold off on getting too psyched up about the mek shop. It could be a sacristian forgeshrine situation and that one deflated peoples hopes fast. Although from the video it sounds like the playtesters liked this one.
Also, I've seen some people theorycrafting its uses. Note that the video only ever says that it works on vehicles, that doesn't mean that it only works only vehicles but assuming it works on anything else as of right now might be a mistake. Besides, logically speaking, a mek shop probably only should buff vehicles?
It would be very weird to release a bunch of really fast vehicles, intended to zoom around the battlefield (probably with short ranged weapons like the Molotov cocktails and Skorcha exhausts), and then also make a terrain piece that buffs shooting for stationary vehicles (only).
Sure, the rules for the Sacristian thing were poorly thought through, but that was built from existing kits, and this one is a new kit which I guess they want to sell?
Unless there are other, shooty vehicles in the codex that benefit, it's all very contradictory. Unless also Artillery is buffed.
Would be great if it buffs Lootas though, because they really, really need both a damage output and a resilience buff.
yeah, just read that forgeshrine profile, it is indeed bad,forgoing literally doing anything for a turn (even only gets 1 attack if its charged) to get d3 hullpoints/or add 6inches to next move/ or refule one shot wpns or slight buff to guns is bonkers. yeesh, hopefully GW learned from that to make ours better.
man, i wonder how big its going to be. mek shops can be anything from a hole in the wall shedd big enough for a bike repair or a whole warehouse converted from a manufactorum that has multiple killkansz on the racks. i suspect smaller (probably able to fit on a knights base, though i doubt it will be based) and with all the coolest gubbinz (hopefully with open garage door and a gutted buggie on the lift).
gosh, the hype is tooo strong, must not get expectations too high
geargutz wrote: yeah, just read that forgeshrine profile, it is indeed bad,forgoing literally doing anything for a turn (even only gets 1 attack if its charged) to get d3 hullpoints/or add 6inches to next move/ or refule one shot wpns or slight buff to guns is bonkers. yeesh, hopefully GW learned from that to make ours better.
man, i wonder how big its going to be. mek shops can be anything from a hole in the wall shedd big enough for a bike repair or a whole warehouse converted from a manufactorum that has multiple killkansz on the racks. i suspect smaller (probably able to fit on a knights base, though i doubt it will be based) and with all the coolest gubbinz (hopefully with open garage door and a gutted buggie on the lift).
gosh, the hype is tooo strong, must not get expectations too high
Yeah, the forgeshrine is the literal worst unit in the game. It's not worth it to take at 0 points. Whoever wrote the rules for it must not only never have played 40k but only have known about it from rough description. Not that I'm arguing that knights need a buff, I'm just saying whoever wrote those rules will hopefully not be let anywhere near the mek shop
mek shop is stationary....unless you "telyport" it if its within the 20pl range.
just imagin, the tyranid are about to charge the orks then all of da sudden a mek shop apears in a flash of light. the termaguants stare in confusion as the mek pops out and opens up the shutter, pulls out a sign painted that morning that simply says "2 and 1/2 tires for 3 teef". the mek lights a cigar as the speedfreaks charge the dumbstruk tyranid lines wanting to get doze savings.
"hey grox, hit dah squig nitro, they never sell dem tires for da price of a bigshoota!"
I do love the (idiotic) image of a mek shop deepstriking
Just to theorycraft a little. Assuming the mek shop maxes out 1 vehicles random amount of shots of a single weapon. Which units would be prime candidates? (I assume the planes can't be buffed)
The stompa, if we expect it gets improved vastly in other areas.
A Gorkanauts deffstorm mega-shoota
Big trakk with supaskorcha
Kill tank with a giga-shoota or bursta kannon
PiñaColada wrote: I do love the (idiotic) image of a mek shop deepstriking
Just to theorycraft a little. Assuming the mek shop maxes out 1 vehicles random amount of shots of a single weapon. Which units would be prime candidates? (I assume the planes can't be buffed)
The stompa, if we expect it gets improved vastly in other areas.
A Gorkanauts deffstorm mega-shoota
Big trakk with supaskorcha
Kill tank with a giga-shoota or bursta kannon
Any others?
killkanons (though short range)
supa lobbas (better option for deploying out of sight and fw got lots of options to caary this)
rattler kanon (best on the mekadredd)
grotzooka (short range would be an issue and its heavy)
the stompa seems the better option, many of its wpns are randum shots and long range and if the mek shop replenishes supa rokits (and if we are allowed to shoot more then one per round,hope for stompa buffs and price gouge) then we can see a replenishing salvo of death with a whole lot of dakka
killkanons (though short range)
supa lobbas (better option for deploying out of sight and fw got lots of options to caary this)
rattler kanon (best on the mekadredd)
grotzooka (short range would be an issue and its heavy)
the stompa seems the better option, many of its wpns are randum shots and long range and if the mek shop replenishes supa rokits (and if we are allowed to shoot more then one per round,hope for stompa buffs and price gouge) then we can see a replenishing salvo of death with a whole lot of dakka
Well, I assume it's going to be a single weapon on a single vehicle. Otherwise it's one of those things that could quite easily get out of hand with some unforseen combos. Or you know, vehicle squadrons or models with 16 different random amount of shot weapons.
Therefore my question was more in line with "which is the single most improvable weapon by maxing out random amount of shotgs?"
killkanons (though short range)
supa lobbas (better option for deploying out of sight and fw got lots of options to caary this)
rattler kanon (best on the mekadredd)
grotzooka (short range would be an issue and its heavy)
the stompa seems the better option, many of its wpns are randum shots and long range and if the mek shop replenishes supa rokits (and if we are allowed to shoot more then one per round,hope for stompa buffs and price gouge) then we can see a replenishing salvo of death with a whole lot of dakka
Well, I assume it's going to be a single weapon on a single vehicle. Otherwise it's one of those things that could quite easily get out of hand with some unforseen combos. Or you know, vehicle squadrons or models with 16 different random amount of shot weapons.
Therefore my question was more in line with "which is the single most improvable weapon by maxing out random amount of shotgs?"
I would assume the gatling on a stompa. Have never used one but is it not like 2 or 3 d6 shots? Also does the mek shop rule affect the stompa weapon jam rule?
PiñaColada wrote: I do love the (idiotic) image of a mek shop deepstriking
Just to theorycraft a little. Assuming the mek shop maxes out 1 vehicles random amount of shots of a single weapon. Which units would be prime candidates? (I assume the planes can't be buffed)
The stompa, if we expect it gets improved vastly in other areas.
A Gorkanauts deffstorm mega-shoota
Big trakk with supaskorcha
Kill tank with a giga-shoota or bursta kannon
Any others?
Considering that the primary role of a gorkanaut is to punch stuff, it's probably not the best candidate.
I'd add the Battlewagon with Supa-Kannon and the Lifta-Wagon though.
Oh feth. I just realized that 20PL stratagem can deep-strike a killtank. Or two supa-skorcha trakks.
Gitdakka wrote: Are we sure the mek shop does not have wheels? I can't decide if I like the concept of an ork building popping up on the battlefield.
Well actually yeah. Maybe the mek shop is a mobile one, that would probably make it sort of a halfway point between the salamander command vehicle and the forgeshrine. That might actually make more sense than a stationary one. It might even be an upgrade to the battlewagon kit, I remember seeing some people who already have converted them to be mek shops.
In the end, I think it's going to be stationary but that does sound less fun now..
I'm thinking about deep striking a Goff Gorkanaut . In the turn after it's stuck in I want to bring my WAAAAGH Banner into range and also cast Warpath on the Gorkanaut. 21 attacks hitting on a 2+ with exploding 6's
I haven't spent any time seeing what I could brig in for 20PL yet.
I had been thinking about MANZ yesterday, 10 _5 mobbed up and jumped with dual Kill saws but for the points might not be so clever. (Again with war path and a WAAAGH banner in range.)
What I am wondering now is, are we seeing any PL changes from an index to a codex with any of the armies or are they just carried over? Any one know?
Started to think stompa and clan traits. (one motivation is apoc game coming up which should be hopefully after codex release but too early for me to paint stompa in time for that so if I want stompa to that 6k list I need to paint it up before codex is released!)
Goff: Okay not bad. 12 attacks with exploding 6's could work. Not sold though.
Deff skull: 6++ is pretty wimp for this unit. For stompa the KFF is pretty mandatory.
Evil sunz: 12" movement means threat range would basically be 15+2d6" on first turn for not enough for first turn. With the 3d6" IF you could charge beyond 12" you could threaten but in practice I would not count. For T2 assault speed is less issue. Gun bonus...Well most are heavy weapons so unless it's like raven knights you won't shoot those anyway. If you can advance and shoot those heavy weapons without penalty ala ravens then that could be useful.
Blood axe: So always counts as cover...Stealthy stompa. Lol. 2+ save is okay though doubling save vs lascannons. Makes KFF less essential as it would be just vs -4 or better weapons.
Bad moons: Well it rolls tons of dice in shooting which have okayish S etc so could work.
Snakebites: Rather weirdly this one could be the winner...KFF for 5++ and this for 6+++ if it works could lead to fairly tough stompa.
Of course we don't know how traits really work. Maybe snakebites don't work on vehicles(would make sense). If that works bit weird that klan least known for vehicles could be best one for stompa...
edit: oh and how I would kill for special rule for stompas that you can combine several klan stompas to one super heavy detachment. If they get hefty price drop around knights(whose equal stompa should be) level I could see using 3 but would want to at least paint them in different colours but that makes using them all in apoc level battles hard if detachment limits are enforced.
tneva82 wrote: edit: oh and how I would kill for special rule for stompas that you can combine several klan stompas to one super heavy detachment. If they get hefty price drop around knights(whose equal stompa should be) level I could see using 3 but would want to at least paint them in different colours but that makes using them all in apoc level battles hard if detachment limits are enforced.
trio of freebooter stompas? ...one kills something, the other two get +1 to hit...could be nice with all that dakka
warhead01 wrote: What I am wondering now is, are we seeing any PL changes from an index to a codex with any of the armies or are they just carried over? Any one know?
PL are rare, if any. The only ones I'm aware of are daemons, since PL matter quite a bit for summoning
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: edit: oh and how I would kill for special rule for stompas that you can combine several klan stompas to one super heavy detachment. If they get hefty price drop around knights(whose equal stompa should be) level I could see using 3 but would want to at least paint them in different colours but that makes using them all in apoc level battles hard if detachment limits are enforced.
There is no official fluff that limits the color scheme of freebootas. Blood axe camouflage can also be any color.
Goff one is... a melee version of DakkaDakkaDakka; so I don't hate it - but Orks should be overkilling most things in melee without it already. Ghaz will absoluetely shoe-horn a Goffs army; he'll be the Gulliman of Goffs (puke). Either he's strong enough in himself to make up for a weaker army trait (though if +1 to hit gets in the mix somehow, it's not necessarily terrible), Goffs will definitely be run. If not, well...
I could see them making him affect all ork clans however to push sales on the next big centerpiece. Guilleman affects all imperium. I know ghazghkull is technically a goff but with how large of a following he has he could rally all clans.
Goff one is... a melee version of DakkaDakkaDakka; so I don't hate it - but Orks should be overkilling most things in melee without it already. Ghaz will absoluetely shoe-horn a Goffs army; he'll be the Gulliman of Goffs (puke). Either he's strong enough in himself to make up for a weaker army trait (though if +1 to hit gets in the mix somehow, it's not necessarily terrible), Goffs will definitely be run. If not, well...
I could see them making him affect all ork clans however to push sales on the next big centerpiece. Guilleman affects all imperium. I know ghazghkull is technically a goff but with how large of a following he has he could rally all clans.
or like guilliman he affect goffs the most but also helps all other orks.
I mean a new model basically has to be coming.. Maybe not with the codex, maybe it's a campaign atg a slightly later date.
Consider the fact that the current Ghaz model is probably smaller than the new warboss (or at most, same size) that's going to look just outright silly
Goff one is... a melee version of DakkaDakkaDakka; so I don't hate it - but Orks should be overkilling most things in melee without it already. Ghaz will absoluetely shoe-horn a Goffs army; he'll be the Gulliman of Goffs (puke). Either he's strong enough in himself to make up for a weaker army trait (though if +1 to hit gets in the mix somehow, it's not necessarily terrible), Goffs will definitely be run. If not, well...
I could see them making him affect all ork clans however to push sales on the next big centerpiece. Guilleman affects all imperium. I know ghazghkull is technically a goff but with how large of a following he has he could rally all clans.
or like guilliman he affect goffs the most but also helps all other orks.
warhead01 wrote: What I am wondering now is, are we seeing any PL changes from an index to a codex with any of the armies or are they just carried over? Any one know?
As far as I know, Power Rating is still calculated as [(minimum points cost) + (maximum points cost)] / 40. I really hope they change that or at least make spanners an option which costs power so that we don't have to pay for the option of having killsaws in a unit of lootas. Or just not give spanners all the upgrade options which aren't even in the kit.
Honestly I just said this in another thread but it's relevant here, I think it's all but a dead cert at this point that Ghaz gets a new model. There's that hench Ork on the Wartrike and GW won't let him be the largest Ork they sell for long.
IMO he should definitely be a Goff keyword unit but have abilities that work on any Ork and perhaps a trait that means he doesn't break detachments. He works with all types of Orks, regardless of Clan and utilizes all sorts of tactics that different factions use regularly. It would make perfect sense and, more importantly, it would drive sales.
Gitdakka wrote: Are we sure the mek shop does not have wheels? I can't decide if I like the concept of an ork building popping up on the battlefield.
Back in 7th I wanted to add a Firestorm Redoubt to my ork army that I was going to model as a mek workshop. I also didn't like the idea of having an immobile building as part of my army though. The work-around I came up with was to make it a trailer so it would have wheels and be movable but is not mobile under its in power.
I like my artillery to have trailer hitches for similar reasons (many old ork artillery did). In my mind the artillery piece gets pulled around by a trukk or other vehicle until the enemy is spotted, at which the point the artillery is unhitched and the krew jumps out while the trukk goes racing off to get in the thick of it.
PiñaColada wrote: I mean a new model basically has to be coming.. Maybe not with the codex, maybe it's a campaign atg a slightly later date.
Consider the fact that the current Ghaz model is probably smaller than the new warboss (or at most, same size) that's going to look just outright silly
Yeah I mean right now hes smaller than Grukks model, and Ghazzy is wearing MA!
They still share the greenskins keyword, can you still fit them inside of the same detachment? Or would you have to make new detachments for each clan?
If you could pick and choose in the same detachment, that would be pretty swell.
We don't know yet, but I think it's a fairly safe guess that Clan keywords will work the same as the different flavors of other armies work. In order to get the special clan rules every unit in a detachment will need to have the same clan keyword.
It's worth noting that for some armies (I'm thinking of Tau specifically) there are enough good subfaction-specific stratagems that it's not uncommon for Tau players to have a Tau "soup" detachment that has units from different Septs. These units don't benefit from their Sept "Chapter Tactics" equivalents, but they do have access to their specific stratagems.
I bring this up because many ork players run all the different clans in their armies and are worried about being limited to three clans by the detachment rules. If the clan-specific stratagems are good enough I could see having an ork "soup" detachment being viable.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: We don't know yet, but I think it's a fairly safe guess that Clan keywords will work the same as the different flavors of other armies work. In order to get the special clan rules every unit in a detachment will need to have the same clan keyword.
It's worth noting that for some armies (I'm thinking of Tau specifically) there are enough good subfaction-specific stratagems that it's not uncommon for Tau players to have a Tau "soup" detachment that has units from different Septs. These units don't benefit from their Sept "Chapter Tactics" equivalents, but they do have access to their specific stratagems.
I bring this up because many ork players run all the different clans in their armies and are worried about being limited to three clans by the detachment rules. If the clan-specific stratagems are good enough I could see having an ork "soup" detachment being viable.
I would love to be able to run Evil Suns trukks carrying Blood Axes. But that now makes me sound like a power gamer...sad face.
any truth to the rumour that the Codex will include a Psychic Power 'Deny the Re-Roll', for a one turn prevention of enemy re-rolling, and a Stratagem 'The Ork Player is Sick of Your Mary Sue Re-Rolling Cavalcade of Crap' at three CP?
Another idea for the tellaporting stratagem.
If it's 20 PL an more than one unit is allowed. 4 war trukks. Is a choice I would consider. I imagine that stratagem will not be useful for assault until turn 2. This gives us some time to set up a really big charge/several charges. 4 trukks to eat overwatch. and do mortal wounds. That could really trap the other army in their own deployment Zone for a few turns as well.
another choice that might be worth looking at would be 6 Killa Kans, which if I remember comes in a 20 or less PL. If they are buffed with warpath and a WAAAGH Banner, could be good, might kill lots of squishes or a tough vehicle.
warhead01 wrote: Another idea for the tellaporting stratagem.
If it's 20 PL an more than one unit is allowed. 4 war trukks. Is a choice I would consider. I imagine that stratagem will not be useful for assault until turn 2. This gives us some time to set up a really big charge/several charges. 4 trukks to eat overwatch. and do mortal wounds. That could really trap the other army in their own deployment Zone for a few turns as well.
another choice that might be worth looking at would be 6 Killa Kans, which if I remember comes in a 20 or less PL. If they are buffed with warpath and a WAAAGH Banner, could be good, might kill lots of squishes or a tough vehicle.
16 PL for 6. SO you could drop a Waagh Banner there as well. 20PL total.
Or the Waagh Banner and 5 Manz with Killsaws. 20 PL. shred any vehicle and make sure they can get in range without getting hit first. Wont be able to use the 3d6 charge strategem though.
warhead01 wrote: Another idea for the tellaporting stratagem.
If it's 20 PL an more than one unit is allowed. 4 war trukks. Is a choice I would consider. I imagine that stratagem will not be useful for assault until turn 2. This gives us some time to set up a really big charge/several charges. 4 trukks to eat overwatch. and do mortal wounds. That could really trap the other army in their own deployment Zone for a few turns as well.
another choice that might be worth looking at would be 6 Killa Kans, which if I remember comes in a 20 or less PL. If they are buffed with warpath and a WAAAGH Banner, could be good, might kill lots of squishes or a tough vehicle.
16 PL for 6. SO you could drop a Waagh Banner there as well. 20PL total.
Or the Waagh Banner and 5 Manz with Killsaws. 20 PL. shred any vehicle and make sure they can get in range without getting hit first. Wont be able to use the 3d6 charge strategem though.
If they benefit from dakkadakkadakka 150 grots isnt automatically a joke. Might have trouble getting all the models in 12" but you could make a mess of screens, clearing the path for your own punch whilst also potentially screening out anything nasty/blobbing up on objectives on that side of the table.
Tyel wrote: If they benefit from dakkadakkadakka 150 grots isnt automatically a joke. Might have trouble getting all the models in 12" but you could make a mess of screens, clearing the path for your own punch whilst also potentially screening out anything nasty/blobbing up on objectives on that side of the table.
Yeah, with dakkadakkadakka 150 grots kill a WHOPPING 9.7 MEQ on the drop (a 28% shooting return!) requiring only a 5,392,546 hour painting effort to get that many tabletop ready!
120 Gretchin + 4 Runtherds would be hilarious, and difficult to budge (well not difficult, just time consuming) - I'm REALLY curious now if they benefit from DakkaDakkaDakka - I hope so; that'd be hilarious with their "Dangerous in large numbers" rule.
I like the idea someone else point out - making a 60" line with a full squad of 30 Boyz (could be 80" with 40 Boyz that have Mob Up) on turn 1 (most effective if you actually have the first turn/set of actions), then on turn 2, you drop 120 Gretchin+Runtherds; these two actions would delay them two turns of movement, which could be something useful for objectives.
That said, 8th edition is the edition of shooting and deep striking, so... even if you did block them like that, there are a ton of counters/alternatives.
Either way, I NEED to see the ruling for that 20PL stratagem - there's so many hilarious options I'm thinking of, but, I know I should temper my hopes with potential realities. Also, would like to see the Ramming Speed stratagem too.
Tyel wrote: If they benefit from dakkadakkadakka 150 grots isnt automatically a joke. Might have trouble getting all the models in 12" but you could make a mess of screens, clearing the path for your own punch whilst also potentially screening out anything nasty/blobbing up on objectives on that side of the table.
Yeah, with dakkadakkadakka 150 grots kill a WHOPPING 9.7 MEQ on the drop (a 28% shooting return!) requiring only a 5,392,546 hour painting effort to get that many tabletop ready!
Naah 40h.
And that's not bad kill rate for unit not brought for killing. Yesterday 111 grots won me 2k game killing 0 models
Tyel wrote: If they benefit from dakkadakkadakka 150 grots isnt automatically a joke. Might have trouble getting all the models in 12" but you could make a mess of screens, clearing the path for your own punch whilst also potentially screening out anything nasty/blobbing up on objectives on that side of the table.
Yeah, with dakkadakkadakka 150 grots kill a WHOPPING 9.7 MEQ on the drop (a 28% shooting return!) requiring only a 5,392,546 hour painting effort to get that many tabletop ready!
I would have expected more like 25. Mob mobs of 30 seem to kill about 5 marines per volley at full strength. I guess my grots are just better than your.
I don't know where anyone else's numbers are coming from, so here's my math for 30 Gretchin - they're surprisingly dangerous with that +1 modifier, when they have access to it.
2.215 MEQ slain is the base calculated amount against MEQ, with just the +1 modifier.
3.587 MEQ slain is the calculated number for +1 to hit, DakkaDakkaDakka, and RR1's (Bad Moons); a ~62% increase in damage output.
First volley
/Total hits
[30]*.666*.333*.333 = 2.215 MEQ slain
[30*.666*.5] = 9.99 new attacks
/Total misses
[10.02*.5]*.666*.333*.333 = 0.369 MEQ slain
[10.02*.5*.666*.5] = 1.668 new attacks
1 wound per 25.09 points, Gretchin against MEQ; with DakkaDakkaDakka+RR1's (Bad Moons)
---
For comparison's sake, the numbers for a 30man Shoota Boy squad shooting at MEQ are:
3.326 MEQ slain; no modifiers
4.037 MEQ slain; DakkaDakkaDakka, RR1's (Bad Moons) - a 21.377% increase.
1 wound per 44.587 points, Shoota Boyz against MEQ
Shoota Boyz win the MEQ slain, especially since they can follow it up with a massive amount of S4 melee attacks - but against T3 targets, the sheer volume of Gretchin S3 firepower should win out in general.
When you factor in points though, Shoota Boyz are [using current prices] 43.727% more expensive, on 1:1 shooting damage against MEQ factor. Adding in melee attacks and S4/T4, well...
Don't underestimate the power of +1 to-hit Gretchin with DakkaDakkaDakka and RR1's (Bad Moons).
IF ALL THE RUMORS ARE TRUE, Gretchin get access to these abilities, and points costs remain the same [I can see Boyz easily going to 7ppm or higher, due to tournament/Green Tide performances...].
I don't really see how your numbers are working fe40k.
As I see it you have 3 effects.
Baseline:
2/3 to hit.
Dakkadakka:
1/6*2/3 extra hits. (Assuming its flat 6s and not effected by the surprisingly dangerous +1 to hit rule).
Reroll 1s.
1/6*(2/3+1/6*2/3) hits.
This works out as 2/3+1/6*2/3+1/6*(2/3+1/6*2/3).
Which simplifies down to 2/3*49/36 hits or 98/108 hits.
Then divide by 9 to wound and save. So 0.1008 MEQ killed per grot.
Each dead MEQ is 13 points, divided by 3 for a grot =43.68% return.
If the +1 to hit counts for dakkadakkadakka, then the results are:
2/3+2/3*2/3+1/6*(2/3+2/3*2/3).
=7/6*(2/3+2/3*2/3)=70/54. Equals 35/27.
35/27*1/9*13/3=62.41% return on your points. I.E 30 Grots would kill 7.2 MEQ.
I suspect dakkadakkadakka - if it genuinely is army wide - will be unmodified 6s as you can start to see how this becomes a silly increase in output on models with +1 to hit.
So, if you did deepstrike an absurd number of Grots they realistically could mess up a marine horde list. The marine player would then HAVE to deal with them, and that would take at least a couple turns. Worth it I'd say.
I wonder how viable they'd be against necron, Tau, or IG.
did wonder on deep striking grots, perhaps not quite that many (I don't have that many, yet), now they appear to be able to provide protection to other units just dropping 30 of them in front of the enemy firebase will divert at least some fire to remove them, if they just buy a bit of time its worth it.
not worth going mad though, two grots is another ork in the line, so maybe add a shield unit, but going mad is less likely to help, but will be funny as fork
Gretchin, when 20+; DakkaJets when firing at the same target; other jets with Gretchin gunners; FW vehicle with Grot Sponsons; FW Grot Mega Tank when you roll a 6 for shooting... and what else?
I honestly don't forsee them changing, on the simple basis of Plasma/Tesla/all the other effects that trigger on +1's; none of them have been changed. None of them are army wide, but... still.
Also, here's how my calculations break down:
First volley
/Total hits
[30]*.666*.333*.333 = 2.215 MEQ slain
(30 shots)*(BS3+)*(5+ to wound)*(Sv3+, 1/3 get through) = final total
[30*.666*.5] = 9.99 new attacks
(30 shots)*(BS3+)*(since you trigger extra attacks on 5-6, half of the shots (3/4/5/6) will be extra attacks) = final new attacks
/Total misses
[10.02*.5]*.666*.333*.333 = 0.369 MEQ slain
(total missed shots)*(since you miss on 1-2 only, half of the shots (1) will be re-rolled)*(BS3+)*(5+ to wound)*(Sv3+, 1/3 get through) = final slain from RR1's
[10.02*.5*.666*.5] = 1.668 new attacks
(total missed shots)*(since you miss on 1-2 only, half of the shots (1) will be re-rolled)*(BS3+)*(since you trigger extra attacks on 5-6, half of the shots (3/4/5/6) will be extra attacks) = new attacks, from converted misses
Don't forget to RR1's when do a new round of attacks as well (looks like you covered it in your math).
Please help me find out where my math is wrong; I'd love to know the correct forumlas so I can use them in the future.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Updated above post with how I got my numbers. I didn't type out the comments in red for the Second volley of attacks (extra generated), since it follows the same math as the initial Hits/Misses/RR1's calculations.
Gretchin, when 20+; DakkaJets when firing at the same target; other jets with Gretchin gunners; FW vehicle with Grot Sponsons; FW Grot Mega Tank when you roll a 6 for shooting... and what else?
True enough.
Still - I struggle with them making Grots some of the most lethal shooting in the game and just leaving it there.
1) They have 20+ members remaining (which should only ever be the round they drop in)
2) Aren't against a -1 to-hit modifier.
The moment they encounter that -1, to negate their +1; their ability to trigger extra attacks is cut significantly, as is the amount of dice re-rolled by RR1's.
Runtherds cost points too; without a Runtherd, the entire squad will straight run when the morale phase comes around - Ld4 is a liability.
I think it's hilarious; but probably only strongest on the 20PL Teleport stratagem - outside of that, it's unreliable and super short ranged (12" is nothing).
///Solved. Yes. Before I had the effect going off 2/3rd of the time when it should only been on 5s and 6s. The following should be correct:
Take 30 dice.
Roll them once. Lets assume for the sake of argument you get 5 of each face. So 5 "1s", 5, "6s", etc.
So flat you have 20 hits. Put the 5 1s to one side.
You then pick up the 10 5s and 6s and roll them again for additional shots. 10*2/3= 20/3 additional hits. You also get a further 10/6 1s. Set them to one side.
Now pick up your 1s - you have 5+10/6, so 40/6.
You can roll them again and repeat the process above ignoring the last stage.
So 40/6*2/3=80/18 hits.
Finally pick up the 5s and 6s - so 80/36 and roll them again for an additional 80/36*2/3=160/108 hits.
So in total we have: 20+20/3+80/18+160/108 hits. This breaks down to 3520/108=32.59 hits.
32.59*1/3 to wound. Times 1/3 to pass armour=3.62 dead MEQ. Which results in 47.06 points, divided by 90 (3*30 grots) results in a 52.3% return. Which is still pretty good.
More importantly is leveraging your grots to make them work better for you. 30 grtos should set their sites on 5 or less marine models. My 30 grots shot at 3 Primaris (2 wound models.) killing 2 and leaving a third wounded. that's fantastic if you ask me but it's the right target and don't operate in a bubble. back them up with something to kill the survivors!
I don't know all that fancy math but it's worked.
warhead01 wrote: More importantly is leveraging your grots to make them work better for you. 30 grtos should set their sites on 5 or less marine models. My 30 grots shot at 3 Primaris (2 wound models.) killing 2 and leaving a third wounded. that's fantastic if you ask me but it's the right target and don't operate in a bubble. back them up with something to kill the survivors!
I don't know all that fancy math but it's worked.
This is another reason that grots and warbosses make for a great team!
warhead01 wrote: More importantly is leveraging your grots to make them work better for you. 30 grtos should set their sites on 5 or less marine models. My 30 grots shot at 3 Primaris (2 wound models.) killing 2 and leaving a third wounded. that's fantastic if you ask me but it's the right target and don't operate in a bubble. back them up with something to kill the survivors!
I don't know all that fancy math but it's worked.
This is another reason that grots and warbosses make for a great team!
I mean the survivors in the target unit...Not the Grots!
///Solved. Yes. Before I had the effect going off 2/3rd of the time when it should only been on 5s and 6s. The following should be correct:
Take 30 dice.
Roll them once. Lets assume for the sake of argument you get 5 of each face. So 5 "1s", 5, "6s", etc.
So flat you have 20 hits. Put the 5 1s to one side.
You then pick up the 10 5s and 6s and roll them again for additional shots. 10*2/3= 20/3 additional hits. You also get a further 10/6 1s. Set them to one side.
Now pick up your 1s - you have 5+10/6, so 40/6.
You can roll them again and repeat the process above ignoring the last stage.
So 40/6*2/3=80/18 hits.
Finally pick up the 5s and 6s - so 80/36 and roll them again for an additional 80/36*2/3=160/108 hits.
So in total we have: 20+20/3+80/18+160/108 hits. This breaks down to 3520/108=32.59 hits.
32.59*1/3 to wound. Times 1/3 to pass armour=3.62 dead MEQ. Which results in 47.06 points, divided by 90 (3*30 grots) results in a 52.3% return. Which is still pretty good.
Are you re-rolling the 1s when you're picking up the 5s and 6s? It looks like you are, but math is hard for me.
Either way, 20-30Grots+DakkaDakkaDakka+RR1's is a real solid value - albeit one that's easily reduced (-1 to hit, less than 20 models, cover; etc).
You guys keep forgetting, 150grots only costs 600pts. In a 2k point tournament you have 1,400 more points to play with, so you could theoretically deep strike with that strat all those grotz, use Da Jump on 30 Boyz (180pts) AND have 45 Kommandos show up turn 2 (405pts) and have a grand total of 75 boyz and 150 grotz within 9' turn 2 for the low price of 1185pts leaving you with 815pts for other HQs and buffing units or whatever floats your boat....say a Painboy on a bike to bum rush forward to give a bit of extra durability?
If so, that’s 450points for 150 Grots; giving us that much more room to work with. Personally, I might drop 30grots to bring in 4 runtherds, just to make them immovable blocks.
I like the sound of Grots/Boyz/Kommandos hitting their lines in unison.
I don't think a Runtherd is needed really, maybe 1 but I can't see more than that. Remember those grots would be well ahead of your army could be CP'd fearless(One unit.) and work with the Green tide rule for LD.
Just as a funny side thought, jumping 30 Boys.. no no...40 boys!
Gorts is folly though, as far as I see it. they will be shot up then charged and then who know what. They are good but also a super soft unit. I think 60 is my limit even though I have 120 or more. too many models!
warhead01 wrote: I don't think a Runtherd is needed really, maybe 1 but I can't see more than that. Remember those grots would be well ahead of your army could be CP'd fearless(One unit.) and work with the Green tide rule for LD.
Just as a funny side thought, jumping 30 Boys.. no no...40 boys!
Gorts is folly though, as far as I see it. they will be shot up then charged and then who know what. They are good but also a super soft unit. I think 60 is my limit even though I have 120 or more. too many models!
Well, Gretchin don't have Mob Rule and can't benefit according to the FAQ.
I like to Jump Shooty units in as well. Had 30 Gretchin jump in front (well behind) a warboss, shoot Dakka Dakka, charge, and still only caused 2 wounds. Still kept him in CC long enough for real bruises to arrive.
warhead01 wrote: I don't think a Runtherd is needed really, maybe 1 but I can't see more than that. Remember those grots would be well ahead of your army could be CP'd fearless(One unit.) and work with the Green tide rule for LD.
Just as a funny side thought, jumping 30 Boys.. no no...40 boys!
Gorts is folly though, as far as I see it. they will be shot up then charged and then who know what. They are good but also a super soft unit. I think 60 is my limit even though I have 120 or more. too many models!
Well, Gretchin don't have Mob Rule and can't benefit according to the FAQ.
I like to Jump Shooty units in as well. Had 30 Gretchin jump in front (well behind) a warboss, shoot Dakka Dakka, charge, and still only caused 2 wounds. Still kept him in CC long enough for real bruises to arrive.
There goes my dreams of Gretchins and Dakkajets being beasts.
Still, better than nothing. I'll take it.
Edit: The upcoming Codex: Orks is, quite frankly, the best Orks book ever. If you’re a veteran warboss, this is the book you’ve been waiting for, while if you’ve always been tempted to start a Waaagh! of your own but never quite got round to it, this is your chance.
So the book is either powercreeped to all get, or it's marketing hyperbole. At least they realize they needed to put some work into Orks...
Annoyed at being ork specific rule. That's just horribad game design which requires GW to either right away make it universal rule or go and give same rule for every faction that can go to 7+. Which with all the -3 and -4 to hit potentials is quite a few...
Hopefully guns get upgraded enough extra shot rule will amount to much more than much dice rolling for little effect.
The very first errata on the Index Xenos 2 FAQ. They changed the Mob rule wording to only affect other Mob Rule mobs. After all, you can't be motivated by some puny Grotz can ya?!
Annoyed at being ork specific rule. That's just horribad game design which requires GW to either right away make it universal rule or go and give same rule for every faction that can go to 7+. Which with all the -3 and -4 to hit potentials is quite a few...
Hopefully guns get upgraded enough extra shot rule will amount to much more than much dice rolling for little effect.
Not saying you're wrong, but can you give a few examples where it's easy and/or common to pull off -3 let alone -4 to hit?
Not saying it's easy(not one word in that post said -3 or -4 is easy. What I said is factions that can go to 7+ or worse with -3 or -4 are many) but there are so factions that can go to 7+ or worse are quite a more than orks. Impossible to hit should not be possible period. Thus unless faction is such that even -4(possible) to hit doesn't mean 7+ to hit faction needs 6 always hits rule. Not many factions that I know that have BS2+ for all guns.
Plus it's not like orks are only ones with BS5+...
Tyel wrote: If they benefit from dakkadakkadakka 150 grots isnt automatically a joke. Might have trouble getting all the models in 12" but you could make a mess of screens, clearing the path for your own punch whilst also potentially screening out anything nasty/blobbing up on objectives on that side of the table.
I don't know, I have trouble finding a place to deep strike my 5 Blightlord Terminators in a useful place in my games, I have no idea how I'm supposed to set down 150 gretchin. Really depends on the stratagem's wording I guess.
Maybe it would make sense to just hold multiple of units in reserve and have them deep strike whenever you need an objective.
Jidmah wrote: I don't know, I have trouble finding a place to deep strike my 5 Blightlord Terminators in a useful place in my games, I have no idea how I'm supposed to set down 150 gretchin. Really depends on the stratagem's wording I guess.
Maybe it would make sense to just hold multiple of units in reserve and have them deep strike whenever you need an objective.
I did wonder that myself, how do you deepstrike 150 models (in 5 groups of 30) within unit cohesion, more than 9" away from the enemy without any of them being more than 12" away? Not saying it's impossible, although it probably is, but that has to be super boring to set up
tneva82 wrote: Not saying it's easy(not one word in that post said -3 or -4 is easy. What I said is factions that can go to 7+ or worse with -3 or -4 are many) but there are so factions that can go to 7+ or worse are quite a more than orks. Impossible to hit should not be possible period. Thus unless faction is such that even -4(possible) to hit doesn't mean 7+ to hit faction needs 6 always hits rule. Not many factions that I know that have BS2+ for all guns.
Plus it's not like orks are only ones with BS5+...
First off, I agree a natural 6 should always hit, so I'm not arguing that. BS5+ is just quite uncommon for primarily SHOOTING units outside of Orks. Unless I'm forgetting some army. -1 or -2 is easy to pull off but you'll still hit on a 6 with your BS4+ shooting force. -3 and -4 are problematic sure, but I believe it's usually only one or two units in an army that can pull those off. Idk, shoot something else?
That said, seeing how Orks are getting this rule now and there's a precedent in Kill Team, I wouldn't be surprised if it became the norm in CA.
Dakka, Dakka, Dakka didn't need to be unmodified hit rolls. That's pretty lame.
Also I hope that they have factored in that our shooting, at least competitively, will almost always be hitting on 6s. Either our guns have more shots or the points for them has to come down.
Also I hope that they have factored in that our shooting, at least competitively, will almost always be hitting on 6s. Either our guns have more shots or the points for them has to come down.
You serious? If dakkadakkadakka was on modified rolls you wouldn't hear the end of it from the ork players, and they would be 100% justified!
Look, GW gave us a universal rule to help us against hit penalties that stops working when we get hit penalties!
Jidmah wrote: I don't know, I have trouble finding a place to deep strike my 5 Blightlord Terminators in a useful place in my games, I have no idea how I'm supposed to set down 150 gretchin. Really depends on the stratagem's wording I guess.
Maybe it would make sense to just hold multiple of units in reserve and have them deep strike whenever you need an objective.
I did wonder that myself, how do you deepstrike 150 models (in 5 groups of 30) within unit cohesion, more than 9" away from the enemy without any of them being more than 12" away? Not saying it's impossible, although it probably is, but that has to be super boring to set up
Well you don't have to have them all fit within 12". Sure all won't shoot but grots aren't for killing anyway.
Though still. Da jump 30 of them for 60" wall. That does the job about same anyway and T1 rather than T2. Keep that deep strike for throwing say gorkanaut 9.1" from enemy and then do 3d6" charge
Never playing 40k again until they allow snikrot to bring independent characters with him from the backboard. Extremely unlikely they will ever do that, except maybe unless we get to 15th edition 40k....if snikrot is still around even. But yes...that is what I want for the ork army. No new models, no new rules..just that and that alone. That's it!
oh, I guess the return of Wazdakka Gutsmek and much much MUCH cheaper Biker nobs.
Also I hope that they have factored in that our shooting, at least competitively, will almost always be hitting on 6s. Either our guns have more shots or the points for them has to come down.
I think it's better, but I mostly face (or at least in half my games) -1 to hit armies, meaning it wouldn't do anything otherwise. At least now we'll always get some benefit from it
Well you don't have to have them all fit within 12". Sure all won't shoot but grots aren't for killing anyway.
Though still. Da jump 30 of them for 60" wall. That does the job about same anyway and T1 rather than T2. Keep that deep strike for throwing say gorkanaut 9.1" from enemy and then do 3d6" charge
I absolutely get the benefit of doing it. It's a massive amount of models controlling the midfield. I'm just saying that when people were crunching the numbers, looking for how many meqs those 150 grots could kill it was a scenario that was never going to happen.The idea (although probably not 150) is still fun though. Chuck 60 of 'em up there and you can also use the grot shield strat if needed
PiñaColada wrote: I absolutely get the benefit of doing it. It's a massive amount of models controlling the midfield. I'm just saying that when people were crunching the numbers, looking for how many meqs those 150 grots could kill it was a scenario that was never going to happen.The idea (although probably not 150) is still fun though. Chuck 60 of 'em up there and you can also use the grot shield strat if needed
Thing is that huge wall appears on turn 2. If you go 2nd(orks likely do) opponent has TWO movement phase to move ahead pushing that 9" bubble ahead. Also you don't need 150 grots to do that. 30 grots will do 60" wall nicely _on turn 1_ with da jump. Rest of the grot wall can then advance behind.
Spoiler:
(that was 111 grots btw. Not quite 150 but quite a swarm anyway )
Needed no deep strike to start pushing wall. Could have spread more but didn't feel need and keep them on movement trays.
Though 150 might fit but not on same unit so will be casualties across the field. But for DZ I think evil sunz boys(8" charge is actually reasonably reliable...), dreadnought, gorkanaut or killa kan squad(6) will be more likely candinates.
I just wish they would give some dates, goddangit. We have a tournament late October and I really really want to bring my Orks. Let's just hope Speedfreaks doesn't steal the stage and we get our Codex sooner rather than later in Orktober...
Also I hope that they have factored in that our shooting, at least competitively, will almost always be hitting on 6s. Either our guns have more shots or the points for them has to come down.
You serious? If dakkadakkadakka was on modified rolls you wouldn't hear the end of it from the ork players, and they would be 100% justified!
Look, GW gave us a universal rule to help us against hit penalties that stops working when we get hit penalties!
The rumours were that 5s and 6s always hit, with 6s generating extra attacks....
Weazel wrote: I just wish they would give some dates, goddangit. We have a tournament late October and I really really want to bring my Orks. Let's just hope Speedfreaks doesn't steal the stage and we get our Codex sooner rather than later in Orktober...
By any chance Turku fanatic? If so we are on same boat! Alas speed freeks comes first :( Could be we both miss tournaments. If it's same tournament release date for codex should be 13th so preorder 6th to go there with orks.
Not sure do I have motivation to go with anything else frankly.
Also I hope that they have factored in that our shooting, at least competitively, will almost always be hitting on 6s. Either our guns have more shots or the points for them has to come down.
You serious? If dakkadakkadakka was on modified rolls you wouldn't hear the end of it from the ork players, and they would be 100% justified!
Look, GW gave us a universal rule to help us against hit penalties that stops working when we get hit penalties!
The rumours were that 5s and 6s always hit, with 6s generating extra attacks....
No. 5+ to hit was silly wishlisting from ork players who think orks should be better eldar shooters than IG. That was NEVER rumour. Just wishlisting.
It's either unmodified 6 generates extra shots or modified at which point yes grots would get extra hits on 5+ but any -1 and you wouldn't generate extra shots with boyz
Weazel wrote: I just wish they would give some dates, goddangit. We have a tournament late October and I really really want to bring my Orks. Let's just hope Speedfreaks doesn't steal the stage and we get our Codex sooner rather than later in Orktober...
By any chance Turku fanatic? If so we are on same boat! Alas speed freeks comes first :( Could be we both miss tournaments. If it's same tournament release date for codex should be 13th so preorder 6th to go there with orks.
Not sure do I have motivation to go with anything else frankly.
Nah it's a private tournament we run twice a year. Fortunately I have a brand spanking new SW codex so I can always go with them if Orktober doesn't deliver on time.
tneva82 wrote: No. 5+ to hit was silly wishlisting from ork players who think orks should be better eldar shooters than IG. That was NEVER rumour. Just wishlisting.
Except it wouldn't make Orks better at shooting Eldar than IG? 4+ BS -1 to hit = hitting on 5s. Always hitting on 5s = hitting on 5s. Look at that, they're the same!
tneva82 wrote: No. 5+ to hit was silly wishlisting from ork players who think orks should be better eldar shooters than IG. That was NEVER rumour. Just wishlisting.
Except it wouldn't make Orks better at shooting Eldar than IG? 4+ BS -1 to hit = hitting on 5s. Always hitting on 5s = hitting on 5s. Look at that, they're the same!
Eldars have plenty -2 to hit though. Funny that where that orks hitting on 7+ came from...
Weazel wrote: I just wish they would give some dates, goddangit. We have a tournament late October and I really really want to bring my Orks. Let's just hope Speedfreaks doesn't steal the stage and we get our Codex sooner rather than later in Orktober...
By any chance Turku fanatic? If so we are on same boat! Alas speed freeks comes first :( Could be we both miss tournaments. If it's same tournament release date for codex should be 13th so preorder 6th to go there with orks.
Not sure do I have motivation to go with anything else frankly.
Nah it's a private tournament we run twice a year. Fortunately I have a brand spanking new SW codex so I can always go with them if Orktober doesn't deliver on time.
Ah ok. Well either way we are both waiting for orks to come
Not like I would be short of armies. IG, knights, soup, orks with index. It's just I'm feeling less motivated bringing in those. Not big tournament goer anyway and imperial armies don't get my tournament juice going as much as orks and orks I take out this weekend. Think that's enough tournaments with index orks. Want to do more than just spam 250+ models(255 or so this weekend on 1500 pts) to avoid being wiped out in 2-3 turns.
tneva82 wrote: No. 5+ to hit was silly wishlisting from ork players who think orks should be better eldar shooters than IG. That was NEVER rumour. Just wishlisting.
Except it wouldn't make Orks better at shooting Eldar than IG? 4+ BS -1 to hit = hitting on 5s. Always hitting on 5s = hitting on 5s. Look at that, they're the same!
Eldars have plenty -2 to hit though. Funny that where that orks hitting on 7+ came from...
And IG have plenty of BS3+.......
There have always been two massive problems with negative to hit modifiers and their impact on Ork shooting. The first is that it leads to instances where we can't even attempt to fire at an enemy. This has been fixed with the dakka dakka dakka army-wide rule. The next problem (that has not been addressed) is that a simple -1 to hit cuts all of our shooting in half. Half of your previous hits are now misses. That's a larger relative impact on shooting than on any other faction in the game.
You've said you don't like rolling more dice? You're going to be forced to roll more dice (that will likely make no difference to the outcome) with this rule.
Roughly 5:30 into this video the guy states that he's heard that the Evil Sunz trait is an additional 2" to the move characteristic. Although he does state that it might be a misinterpretation..
Obviously not the strongest rumour but if this is indeed the case then hopefully GW has considered the implications and made it vehicles and bikes only, otherwise Evil Sunz is going to be the go-to green tide trait..
PiñaColada wrote: Roughly 5:30 into this video the guy states that he's heard that the Evil Sunz trait is an additional 2" to the move characteristic. Although he does state that it might be a misinterpretation..
Obviously not the strongest rumour but if this is indeed the case then hopefully GW has considered the implications and made it vehicles and bikes only, otherwise Evil Sunz is going to be the go-to green tide trait..
Spoiler:
I think it's a misinterpretation of the +1" to movement then +1" to advance = +2". Most Orks advance right?
tneva82 wrote: No. 5+ to hit was silly wishlisting from ork players who think orks should be better eldar shooters than IG. That was NEVER rumour. Just wishlisting.
Except it wouldn't make Orks better at shooting Eldar than IG? 4+ BS -1 to hit = hitting on 5s. Always hitting on 5s = hitting on 5s. Look at that, they're the same!
Eldars have plenty -2 to hit though. Funny that where that orks hitting on 7+ came from...
And IG have plenty of BS3+.......
There have always been two massive problems with negative to hit modifiers and their impact on Ork shooting. The first is that it leads to instances where we can't even attempt to fire at an enemy. This has been fixed with the dakka dakka dakka army-wide rule. The next problem (that has not been addressed) is that a simple -1 to hit cuts all of our shooting in half. Half of your previous hits are now misses. That's a larger relative impact on shooting than on any other faction in the game.
You've said you don't like rolling more dice? You're going to be forced to roll more dice (that will likely make no difference to the outcome) with this rule.
Yes. But having some units on BS3+ is irrelevant if some units are 4+ and go to 7+. 7+ to hit, unless there's some way to actually roll it, shouldn't be possible PERIOD. It doesn't matter if it's one unit from IG that would go to 7+ to hit. It's flat out bad game design to make unit immune to shooting just like that. Unlikely fine, impossible bad.
tneva82 wrote: Yes. But having some units on BS3+ is irrelevant if some units are 4+ and go to 7+. 7+ to hit, unless there's some way to actually roll it, shouldn't be possible PERIOD. It doesn't matter if it's one unit from IG that would go to 7+ to hit. It's flat out bad game design to make unit immune to shooting just like that. Unlikely fine, impossible bad.
Listen, I kind of agree with you but at the same time you're massively overstating the problem.
-3 to hit something is extremely rare compared to -2. Usually it's one unit a turn at max in my experience. Comparing that to the prevalence of -2 to hit, and relative impact before the dakka dakka dakka rule on Ork shooting is somewhat bogus.
I'd wouldn't mind if there was a global rule that 6s always hit, in fact I'd be in full support of it. I don't think it would change any army lists, have a significant impact on the meta or really do much of anything though, so it is in many ways a complete waste of GW's time.
Yeah, I absolutely think it's crap that someone can chuck lightning fast reflexes on a alaitoc hemlock and guard or tau can't even hit it anymore. So always hitting on 6's should be a universal rule, no doubt. But if that's implemented (which it should be) then our dakkadakkadakka buff is pretty tame.
Hence, I'm slightly sad it isn't always hit on 5's (which would still leave some leeway to negatively impact our best shooters)
Englishman I love you man, you fight the good fight in YMDC. But you gotta relax on the shooting wishlisting. If we get literally ANY buffs to boyz without a point increase AND we have comparable shooting with IG/eldar... orks will shoot to top teir or first place.
Let's just take a breath and enjoy the army wide buffs that look both measured and impactful.
I'm super happy with the dakka dakka dakka rule. I used the stratagem on Tankbustas and was pleased with its performance. I can't understand people actually complaining getting it FOR FREE for everyone.
I would actually be pretty happy if we only got Dakkadakkadakka, some flavorful and useful Stratagems and (significant) points reductions to make other options outside of Boyz viable. I'd love to run Dreads and Kans but they're just horribly, horribly overcosted.
Also,can someone explain (or guesstimate) how many squigs will be in that shadespire/warhammer underworlds: nightvault warband? I have no interest nor knowledge of that game but if we can get some standalone squig models I'd buy those in a heartbeat!
Would they be standalone or just part of some box, either in a starter set with two forces or more akin to KTs Krogskullz boyz?
Weazel wrote: I'm super happy with the dakka dakka dakka rule. I used the stratagem on Tankbustas and was pleased with its performance. I can't understand people actually complaining getting it FOR FREE for everyone.
I would actually be pretty happy if we only got Dakkadakkadakka, some flavorful and useful Stratagems and (significant) points reductions to make other options outside of Boyz viable. I'd love to run Dreads and Kans but they're just horribly, horribly overcosted.
I haven't seen anyone openly complaining about it, I have seen people sad that they didn't get the 5+ instead of the 6+ but that is about it. As far as throwing shade on this otherwise good day for Orkz, well, if GW doesn't do anything else to address our horrific shooting then we are basically still in the same boat as before, albeit with a 5% increase in our shooting...which isn't enough. 30 Shoota Boyz with index with their 18' gunz were getting 60 shots, 20 hits and 10 wounds VS Marines for a grand total of 3.3 Dead Marines, with Dakka army wide they now get 60 shots, 23 hits and 11.5 (rough math) wounds vs Space Marines which equals 3.7ish Dead Marines. So the increase is marginal at best for our standard shooting units. Don't get me wrong I am excited about this because if nothing else is makes me believe that someone at GWHQ actually understands that ork shooting is abysmal and is attempting to rectify that mistake.
Honestly, I'm more than happy now. If they just gave us the codex with everything we knew it woukd be fine. Only thing that could shut me down is bad points cost.
PiñaColada wrote: Also,can someone explain (or guesstimate) how many squigs will be in that shadespire/warhammer underworlds: nightvault warband? I have no interest nor knowledge of that game but if we can get some standalone squig models I'd buy those in a heartbeat!
Would they be standalone or just part of some box, either in a starter set with two forces or more akin to KTs Krogskullz boyz?
They will be standalone band. Look up these for Shadespire, should cost the same so pretty cheap. Only the two poster bands are in starter.
As for models, dunno. No one can say, depends on how elite or horde-y they are. WU bands have from 3 to 8 models, I'd bet on ~6 or so...
PiñaColada wrote: Also,can someone explain (or guesstimate) how many squigs will be in that shadespire/warhammer underworlds: nightvault warband? I have no interest nor knowledge of that game but if we can get some standalone squig models I'd buy those in a heartbeat!
Would they be standalone or just part of some box, either in a starter set with two forces or more akin to KTs Krogskullz boyz?
They will be standalone band. Look up these for Shadespire, should cost the same so pretty cheap. Only the two poster bands are in starter.
As for models, dunno. No one can say, depends on how elite or horde-y they are. WU bands have from 3 to 8 models, I'd bet on ~6 or so...
Oooh thanks, 17.5 GBP is not bad at all if you get 6(ish) squigs for it. Can never have enough squigs so this feels like an instant buy!
Weazel wrote: I'm super happy with the dakka dakka dakka rule. I used the stratagem on Tankbustas and was pleased with its performance. I can't understand people actually complaining getting it FOR FREE for everyone.
I would actually be pretty happy if we only got Dakkadakkadakka, some flavorful and useful Stratagems and (significant) points reductions to make other options outside of Boyz viable. I'd love to run Dreads and Kans but they're just horribly, horribly overcosted.
I haven't seen anyone openly complaining about it, I have seen people sad that they didn't get the 5+ instead of the 6+ but that is about it. As far as throwing shade on this otherwise good day for Orkz, well, if GW doesn't do anything else to address our horrific shooting then we are basically still in the same boat as before, albeit with a 5% increase in our shooting...which isn't enough. 30 Shoota Boyz with index with their 18' gunz were getting 60 shots, 20 hits and 10 wounds VS Marines for a grand total of 3.3 Dead Marines, with Dakka army wide they now get 60 shots, 23 hits and 11.5 (rough math) wounds vs Space Marines which equals 3.7ish Dead Marines. So the increase is marginal at best for our standard shooting units. Don't get me wrong I am excited about this because if nothing else is makes me believe that someone at GWHQ actually understands that ork shooting is abysmal and is attempting to rectify that mistake.
5%? Where you got that one. You get 16.666666% more hits than before. And even that 3.7 marines vs 3.3 marines is 12% increase in damage output. Albeit your 3.7 vs 3.3 is still inaccurate as casualty increase is that 16.666666% still. 3.888 dead marines to be specific.
tneva82 wrote: 5%? Where you got that one. You get 16.666666% more hits than before. And even that 3.7 marines vs 3.3 marines is 12% increase in damage output. Albeit your 3.7 vs 3.3 is still inaccurate as casualty increase is that 16.666666% still. 3.888 dead marines to be specific.
It's an additional hit roll on an unmodified roll of 6. So you get a 16.67% chance to roll for another shot. That shot has a 33% chance of hitting. So each shot has a roughly 5% chance of resulting in an extra hit
PiñaColada wrote: Oooh thanks, 17.5 GBP is not bad at all if you get 6(ish) squigs for it. Can never have enough squigs so this feels like an instant buy!
Might be less actually - if you really have no interest in the game (though it's neat, you might as well try) the cards from the new bands are likely to be in demand from other players (as a lot of them are universal and work with everyone) so you might sell those for extra discount...
tneva82 wrote: 5%? Where you got that one. You get 16.666666% more hits than before. And even that 3.7 marines vs 3.3 marines is 12% increase in damage output. Albeit your 3.7 vs 3.3 is still inaccurate as casualty increase is that 16.666666% still. 3.888 dead marines to be specific.
It's an additional hit roll on an unmodified roll of 6. So you get a 16.67% chance to roll for another shot. That shot has a 33% chance of hitting. So each shot has a roughly 5% chance of resulting in an extra hit
Which results in 16.6666% more hits than if you didn't have that rule.
23.333 hits is 16.6666% more hits than 20(using the 30 shoota mob as example).
10 rokkits, from 3.3333 hits to 3.888888 hits which is, funny that, 16.666% more hits than 3.3333.
PiñaColada wrote: Oooh thanks, 17.5 GBP is not bad at all if you get 6(ish) squigs for it. Can never have enough squigs so this feels like an instant buy!
Might be less actually - if you really have no interest in the game (though it's neat, you might as well try) the cards from the new bands are likely to be in demand from other players (as a lot of them are universal and work with everyone) so you might sell those for extra discount...
Might have to check it out after I get the little guys then
tneva82 wrote: 5%? Where you got that one. You get 16.666666% more hits than before. And even that 3.7 marines vs 3.3 marines is 12% increase in damage output. Albeit your 3.7 vs 3.3 is still inaccurate as casualty increase is that 16.666666% still. 3.888 dead marines to be specific.
It's an additional hit roll on an unmodified roll of 6. So you get a 16.67% chance to roll for another shot. That shot has a 33% chance of hitting. So each shot has a roughly 5% chance of resulting in an extra hit
Which results in 16.6666% more hits than if you didn't have that rule.
23.333 hits is 16.6666% more hits than 20(using the 30 shoota mob as example).
10 rokkits, from 3.3333 hits to 3.888888 hits which is, funny that, 16.666% more hits than 3.3333.
Oh, I get the math (and I agree with it, even though I'm bad enough at math that shouldn't be taken at any sort of value ). I'm just explaining where people got the 5% from.
tneva82 wrote: 5%? Where you got that one. You get 16.666666% more hits than before. And even that 3.7 marines vs 3.3 marines is 12% increase in damage output. Albeit your 3.7 vs 3.3 is still inaccurate as casualty increase is that 16.666666% still. 3.888 dead marines to be specific.
It's an additional hit roll on an unmodified roll of 6. So you get a 16.67% chance to roll for another shot. That shot has a 33% chance of hitting. So each shot has a roughly 5% chance of resulting in an extra hit
Which results in 16.6666% more hits than if you didn't have that rule.
23.333 hits is 16.6666% more hits than 20(using the 30 shoota mob as example).
10 rokkits, from 3.3333 hits to 3.888888 hits which is, funny that, 16.666% more hits than 3.3333.
Can we stop this absolute vs relative discussion?
Both are right, it's just different ways to calculate a percentage.
It's really unnecessary to have this fight in every single thread discussing DakkaDakkaDakka.
The very first errata on the Index Xenos 2 FAQ. They changed the Mob rule wording to only affect other Mob Rule mobs. After all, you can't be motivated by some puny Grotz can ya?!
No it doesn't look like it's change to exclude grots. It works on Key word <Orks>, grots have that key word. So I can't see where it's been changed.
Onto the news and rumor front I wonder what that Speed Freaks box will cost with only 2 buggies and 3 war bikers in it+ terrain and game stuff. Hope it's $100.00 or less.
Or do we think that blue buggy and Trike boss will also be in the set?
No it doesn't look like it's change to exclude grots. It works on Key word <Orks>, grots have that key word. So I can't see where it's been changed.
Onto the news and rumor front I wonder what that Speed Freaks box will cost with only 2 buggies and 3 war bikers in it+ terrain and game stuff. Hope it's $100.00 or less.
Or do we think that blue buggy and Trike boss will also be in the set?
I would imagine everything we get in the box is what's shown in that picture showing off the game on a mat... So 2 buggies, 6 bikes, some terrain pieces & assorted accessories
PiñaColada wrote: Roughly 5:30 into this video the guy states that he's heard that the Evil Sunz trait is an additional 2" to the move characteristic. Although he does state that it might be a misinterpretation..
Obviously not the strongest rumour but if this is indeed the case then hopefully GW has considered the implications and made it vehicles and bikes only, otherwise Evil Sunz is going to be the go-to green tide trait..
Spoiler:
I think it's a misinterpretation of the +1" to movement then +1" to advance = +2". Most Orks advance right?
I agree. For evil suns with a warboss nearby there really is no reason not to advance - you can shoot and charge anyways.
Weazel wrote: I'm super happy with the dakka dakka dakka rule. I used the stratagem on Tankbustas and was pleased with its performance. I can't understand people actually complaining getting it FOR FREE for everyone.
I would actually be pretty happy if we only got Dakkadakkadakka, some flavorful and useful Stratagems and (significant) points reductions to make other options outside of Boyz viable. I'd love to run Dreads and Kans but they're just horribly, horribly overcosted.
I haven't seen anyone openly complaining about it, I have seen people sad that they didn't get the 5+ instead of the 6+ but that is about it. As far as throwing shade on this otherwise good day for Orkz, well, if GW doesn't do anything else to address our horrific shooting then we are basically still in the same boat as before, albeit with a 5% increase in our shooting...which isn't enough. 30 Shoota Boyz with index with their 18' gunz were getting 60 shots, 20 hits and 10 wounds VS Marines for a grand total of 3.3 Dead Marines, with Dakka army wide they now get 60 shots, 23 hits and 11.5 (rough math) wounds vs Space Marines which equals 3.7ish Dead Marines. So the increase is marginal at best for our standard shooting units. Don't get me wrong I am excited about this because if nothing else is makes me believe that someone at GWHQ actually understands that ork shooting is abysmal and is attempting to rectify that mistake.
In the end, ork shooting will depend heavily on the point costs for the models with guns, and outside of a few random nugets we won't know those until the codex drops/is spoiled since GW usually doesn't spoil those in advance.
I wouldn't condemn ork shooting to be a failure until we have played a game with them.
If anything, DakkaDakkaDakka is no longer a stratagem, so there is room for another one - that alone is a buff all by itself
Dakka Dakka Dakka.
There are only a handful of units that will really get a lot out of this. Any unit hitting on a 4+ or better or with a reroll, seems to me. It's just a light buff to help with out hugely hurting the -1 buff of the target unit and it encourages Orks to keep moving to close the distance and then charge. Really the faster units get to with in debuff range the stronger Dakka Dakka will be, getting those 5's as hits back, for example.
Over all it's nice, better to have it than not have it and I really like not having to pay for it. Heck, It sounds like it will work with overwatch as well?
The very first errata on the Index Xenos 2 FAQ. They changed the Mob rule wording to only affect other Mob Rule mobs. After all, you can't be motivated by some puny Grotz can ya?!
No it doesn't look like it's change to exclude grots. It works on Key word <Orks>, grots have that key word. So I can't see where it's been changed.
When using the Leadership characteristic of this unit,
you can use either its own Leadership characteristic,
or you can choose for the characteristic to be equal to
either the number of models in the unit, or the number
of models in another friendly unit within 6" that has
this ability.
Actually not even keyword but unit within 6" that has this ability. But grots don't have this ability so no LD boost from numbers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
warhead01 wrote: . Heck, It sounds like it will work with overwatch as well?
Yup. So basically every overwatch hit will automatically generate another shot
It wouldn't be all that surprising if Orks got a "Overlapping fields of fire" stratagem like IG. So basically if you've wounded an enemy target for 2CP the entire army now gets +1 to hit it.
I know I'd personally love that, it would also synergise with dakkadakkadakka quite a bit since the extra shots would hit easier.
We haven't heard anything from guns yet, however I believe it is unlikely they would make sweeping changes. Something like making Shootas Assault 3 and Big Shootas Assault 6 etc. Would amp up Ork shooting nicely.
The problem with Dakkadakkadakka is that, because it exists, you aren’t going to see an increase on the base amount of ork shooting, which was always the real problem.
That, and, hitting on 1/6 with a possible 1/36 for a second shot - woo, so effective. Need to deal with wounding and armor saves (and possibly FNP) after that.
Make “always hits on a 6” a base game rule, as a counterpart to “always misses on a 1” - then buff ork shooting.
An extra shot is largely pointless when you’re hitting on 6s, which was always the real issue. We lose 50% firepower at the first -1 modifier; and our shooting wasn’t great enough to begin with. We simply don’t do enough shots for anything to really matter.
hollow one wrote: Englishman I love you man, you fight the good fight in YMDC. But you gotta relax on the shooting wishlisting. If we get literally ANY buffs to boyz without a point increase AND we have comparable shooting with IG/eldar... orks will shoot to top teir or first place.
Let's just take a breath and enjoy the army wide buffs that look both measured and impactful.
Orks should be top tier or first place though?
Nah you're right of course. Until we see the full picture this is all speculation. For free the rule is good but I don't think it fixes the issues with our shooting units by itself. Perhaps there are other changes that help in that regard and we haven't seen! Here's hoping!
fe40k wrote: An extra shot is largely pointless when you’re hitting on 6s, which was always the real issue. We lose 50% firepower at the first -1 modifier; and our shooting wasn’t great enough to begin with. We simply don’t do enough shots for anything to really matter.
Well the thing is saying our shots don't matter is largely hyperbole.
10 Grey Hunters with Boltguns vs 22 Shootaboyz (~130 pts) shooting at a T4 target, rapid-fire range.
20 Shots vs 44 Shots
13 hits vs 17 hits
6.5 wounds vs 8.5 wounds.
Orks actually put out more dakka point for point than marines.
Now I know you talked about hit modifiers and I agree that they hurt Orks more than say marines, but it's pretty hard to balance shooting around hit modifiers without tipping to the realm of overpowered when hit modifiers are not in effect. Not every game is against Alaitoc after all. If you face some hard to hit girly elves go attach a Choppa to their face instead?
@tneva82, @Nightlord1987: I see where I was confused now. Thank you both. (My brain damage is acting up this morning and I can't see words on a unit entry.) All sorted now.
warhead01 wrote: On topic. Zoundz Assault 3 shootas would be wild. Is this just wishlisting or is it something we're actually expecting?
Wishlisting at this point. It's unlikely to happen since Shootas are on par with Boltguns point for point. However Big Shootas need a significant buff.
fe40k wrote: An extra shot is largely pointless when you’re hitting on 6s, which was always the real issue. We lose 50% firepower at the first -1 modifier; and our shooting wasn’t great enough to begin with. We simply don’t do enough shots for anything to really matter.
Well the thing is saying our shots don't matter is largely hyperbole.
10 Grey Hunters with Boltguns vs 22 Shootaboyz (~130 pts) shooting at a T4 target, rapid-fire range.
20 Shots vs 44 Shots 13 hits vs 17 hits 6.5 wounds vs 8.5 wounds.
Orks actually put out more dakka point for point than marines.
Now I know you talked about hit modifiers and I agree that they hurt Orks more than say marines, but it's pretty hard to balance shooting around hit modifiers without tipping to the realm of overpowered when hit modifiers are not in effect. Not every game is against Alaitoc after all. If you face some hard to hit girly elves go attach a Choppa to their face instead?
1. Everybody knows marines suck at 13 points. Contact marmatag for details. We don't want to suck, thank you very much. 2. Marines do not get their damage from their bolter dudes, they get if from their special and heavy weapons. Meanwhile ork boyz get their damage from punching stuff in the face. Might as well compare a landraider to a stompa.
warhead01 wrote: On topic. Zoundz Assault 3 shootas would be wild. Is this just wishlisting or is it something we're actually expecting?
Wishlisting at this point. It's unlikely to happen since Shootas are on par with Boltguns point for point. However Big Shootas need a significant buff.
I think your right. Back in 3rd I could take 4 big shootas, 12 shots would kill about 2 marines a turn reliably. so 4 or 5 , shots a big shoota would be nice or more big shootas in the mob. More is always preferable to less!
I'm reading some stratagem speculation but it's also probably wishlisting still. Things to give Orks more shots or better hits would be much smiles upon.
Posted this in tactics thread but it fits here as well.
GW said in their Speedfreaks preview that the content of the box can be used as an outrider detachment in 40k. Okay. There's two buggies and 6 bikers. The new HQ trike is not included. Biker HQ confirmed maybe? It's weird they would drop bike characters altogether if they're trying to push Speedfreeks style lists into 40k... Food for thought.
Weazel wrote: Posted this in tactics thread but it fits here as well.
GW said in their Speedfreaks preview that the content of the box can be used as an outrider detachment in 40k. Okay. There's two buggies and 6 bikers. The new HQ trike is not included. Biker HQ confirmed maybe? It's weird they would drop bike characters altogether if they're trying to push Speedfreeks style lists into 40k... Food for thought.
Hope Orks get their warbikers buffed (mainly much cheaper in points) to not be complete garbage.
Weazel wrote: Posted this in tactics thread but it fits here as well.
GW said in their Speedfreaks preview that the content of the box can be used as an outrider detachment in 40k. Okay. There's two buggies and 6 bikers. The new HQ trike is not included. Biker HQ confirmed maybe? It's weird they would drop bike characters altogether if they're trying to push Speedfreeks style lists into 40k... Food for thought.
Hope Orks get their warbikers buffed (mainly much cheaper in points) to not be complete garbage.
I'd rather them get a buff to be worth their current points. More shots would be nice but I'm not sure how many more they would need to be worth their points, -1 to hit when advancing would be cool, being able to advance and charge in the same turn without a warboss nearby would also be nice.
Weazel wrote: Posted this in tactics thread but it fits here as well.
GW said in their Speedfreaks preview that the content of the box can be used as an outrider detachment in 40k. Okay. There's two buggies and 6 bikers. The new HQ trike is not included. Biker HQ confirmed maybe? It's weird they would drop bike characters altogether if they're trying to push Speedfreeks style lists into 40k... Food for thought.
That trike hq is what they intend you to buy. Note they ask what hq could keep up and then show "this can".
Weazel wrote: Posted this in tactics thread but it fits here as well.
GW said in their Speedfreaks preview that the content of the box can be used as an outrider detachment in 40k. Okay. There's two buggies and 6 bikers. The new HQ trike is not included. Biker HQ confirmed maybe? It's weird they would drop bike characters altogether if they're trying to push Speedfreeks style lists into 40k... Food for thought.
Hope Orks get their warbikers buffed (mainly much cheaper in points) to not be complete garbage.
I'd rather them get a buff to be worth their current points. More shots would be nice but I'm not sure how many more they would need to be worth their points, -1 to hit when advancing would be cool, being able to advance and charge in the same turn without a warboss nearby would also be nice.
I really doubt they will buff ork bikes to be stronger, space marine players would be annoyed if orks have more wounds , or have a 3+ save. dmg output coudl go up but we are talkign glass cannon territory there. for how weak a ork biker is. I think points drops are the only solution
I'm still super interested in the boomstikk stats (also, this is how I'll spell it from now on. GW is incorrect )
At first I thought they were shotguns and just a reference to Evil Dead 3, but looking closer they almost seem to be grenade launchers..I mean it could just be super stylised, ridonkulous big slugs they're firing but looking at the ammo for them and they sort of resemble grenades more than anything to me
PiñaColada wrote: I'm still super interested in the boomstikk stats (also, this is how I'll spell it from now on. GW is incorrect )
At first I thought they were shotguns and just a reference to Evil Dead 3, but looking closer they almost seem to be grenade launchers..I mean it could just be super stylised, ridonkulous big slugs they're firing but looking at the ammo for them and they sort of resemble grenades more than anything to me
Dude those are mahoosive shells. For sure. They even painted them red
Stats-wise is hard, I'm guessing they'll be at least Dakkagun level so Ass 3 18" S5 AP 0 is the base. Perhaps shorter range but more punch given they're shotguns? Ass 4 12" S5 AP -1?
PiñaColada wrote: I'm still super interested in the boomstikk stats (also, this is how I'll spell it from now on. GW is incorrect )
At first I thought they were shotguns and just a reference to Evil Dead 3, but looking closer they almost seem to be grenade launchers..I mean it could just be super stylised, ridonkulous big slugs they're firing but looking at the ammo for them and they sort of resemble grenades more than anything to me
Dude those are mahoosive shells. For sure. They even painted them red
Stats-wise is hard, I'm guessing they'll be at least Dakkagun level so Ass 3 18" S5 AP 0 is the base. Perhaps shorter range but more punch given they're shotguns? Ass 4 12" S5 AP -1?
Yeah I guess they're just very orky shotguns. However, assuming they are shotguns I'll be a bit sad if the don't have two statlines. Meaning if their stats are Assualt 3 18" S5 AP 0 D1, then I hope the get +1S/+1 to hit within half range
Or, and this might be more fun, they can actually load grenade rounds into the shotgun so it has a second profile. Something like a tankbusta statwise
So one thing that I'm thinking of doing is: If the strategem allows multiple units to be placed in reserve. You drop 60 grots in between the bulk of your force and the enemy. Behind the grots you drop either 1 or 2 painboys, depending on preference, That way the 2 grot mobs get the 6+++. Then if the enemy fires past them you can pop the grot shield strategem, pass off wounds on a 2+ only for another chance to save it on a 6+++.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Weazel wrote: Posted this in tactics thread but it fits here as well.
GW said in their Speedfreaks preview that the content of the box can be used as an outrider detachment in 40k. Okay. There's two buggies and 6 bikers. The new HQ trike is not included. Biker HQ confirmed maybe? It's weird they would drop bike characters altogether if they're trying to push Speedfreeks style lists into 40k... Food for thought.
The TrikeBoss is the HQ they intend for you to use. They also said that it can almost make an outrider detachment and that you would need an HQ, ala TRIKERBOSS.
Speculation on price hwere, but given the contents of the box, 2x bikes kits ($41 each) and 2x buggies no price yet but probably close to the trukk price ($37 each) plus small -medium scatter terrain bits (another ($40) most GW games like this have a 40-50% (total here is $195) markdown on kits so my hope is $99 box, might be as high as $120, but hopefully GW realized the psychological effect of a price under $100.
given the comparison of the $80 gangs of commoragh set i see it being more expensive due to the larger buggies hence the $99 guess
G00fySmiley wrote: Speculation on price hwere, but given the contents of the box, 2x bikes kits ($41 each) and 2x buggies no price yet but probably close to the trukk price ($37 each) plus small -medium scatter terrain bits (another ($40) most GW games like this have a 40-50% (total here is $195) markdown on kits so my hope is $99 box, might be as high as $120, but hopefully GW realized the psychological effect of a price under $100.
given the comparison of the $80 gangs of commoragh set i see it being more expensive due to the larger buggies hence the $99 guess
100 would be a great price and basically a no brained "buy 2 or more" for most Ork players unless they are swimming in warbikers.
Thinking about it.... the start collecting green skins box that has the boar boyz, chariot, and boar boss is basically a snakebites version of this set.
Thinking about it.... the start collecting green skins box that has the boar boyz, chariot, and boar boss is basically a snakebites version of this set.
G00fySmiley wrote: I really doubt they will buff ork bikes to be stronger, space marine players would be annoyed if orks have more wounds , or have a 3+ save. dmg output coudl go up but we are talkign glass cannon territory there. for how weak a ork biker is. I think points drops are the only solution
-1 to AP is all they need to become awesome. Also, who cares about space marine players? Just because their rules suck doesn't mean ours need to do as well.
G00fySmiley wrote: I really doubt they will buff ork bikes to be stronger, space marine players would be annoyed if orks have more wounds , or have a 3+ save. dmg output coudl go up but we are talkign glass cannon territory there. for how weak a ork biker is. I think points drops are the only solution
-1 to AP is all they need to become awesome. Also, who cares about space marine players? Just because their rules suck doesn't mean ours need to do as well.
-1 ap for what their gun should be would be welcome sure, but even with -1ap i do not think thier dakka gunz would make them worth the current 27 points. average of 1 hit per model and only 18 inch range. I think that is a 19-20 point model with a -1AP and a 17-18 point model as is.
as for the space marine i meant from a making them durable enough to justify the points scale. adding a wound or armor save. I am not saying GW should care, just that they do and the amount of greif i already see from mega nobz even existing (IE people saying orks cannot make thigns that are worthy of a 2+ save) is high already.
Ap-1 would be cool. Orks have some trouble with good armour values. Depends on how many points they'll be as well but an extra shot per dakkagun would help quite a bit in addition.. S6 might be interesting otherwise, makes clearing chaff easier
It's really the nobz on warbikes that need a lot of changes IMO. Those guys need a crazy point drop
PiñaColada wrote: Ap-1 would be cool. Orks have some trouble with good armour values. Depends on how many points they'll be as well but an extra shot per dakkagun would help quite a bit in addition.. S6 might be interesting otherwise, makes clearing chaff easier
It's really the nobz on warbikes that need a lot of changes IMO. Those guys need a crazy point drop
Maybe extra attacks on the charge?
My kingdom for a 5++ when advancing on Warbikes and a 4++ when advancing on Nob Bikes.
I've not played my ork bikers once in all of 8th due to how bad they have been. I have committed the great sin of giving in to the hope of a better, brighter, greener tomorrow. I sure do hope GW gets the points right on bikers. Also if Ork guns could get a MEATY point drop or a rate of fire boost (big shoota please) that would be great. As is Orks pay marine prices for guns (already high) for BS5+ stats.
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I've not played my ork bikers once in all of 8th due to how bad they have been. I have committed the great sin of giving in to the hope of a better, brighter, greener tomorrow. I sure do hope GW gets the points right on bikers. Also if Ork guns could get a MEATY point drop or a rate of fire boost (big shoota please) that would be great. As is Orks pay marine prices for guns (already high) for BS5+ stats.
The kustom shoota better get a big drop (in percentage that is). 4 points for a sort of storm bolter when the beakies pay 2? The deathwatch stormbolters are 4 points and those things are amazing. Change them to 1 points each and we'll give all the 'umies some dakka
G00fySmiley wrote: I really doubt they will buff ork bikes to be stronger, space marine players would be annoyed if orks have more wounds , or have a 3+ save. dmg output coudl go up but we are talkign glass cannon territory there. for how weak a ork biker is. I think points drops are the only solution
Three buffs they might pull for 3rd edition are making warbikes fearless, giving them a dust cloud save that also benefits other units and letting them fire their dakkaguns in a turn they charged rather than making normal melee attacks.
Weazel wrote: Posted this in tactics thread but it fits here as well.
GW said in their Speedfreaks preview that the content of the box can be used as an outrider detachment in 40k. Okay. There's two buggies and 6 bikers. The new HQ trike is not included. Biker HQ confirmed maybe? It's weird they would drop bike characters altogether if they're trying to push Speedfreeks style lists into 40k... Food for thought.
Hope Orks get their warbikers buffed (mainly much cheaper in points) to not be complete garbage.
I'd rather them get a buff to be worth their current points. More shots would be nice but I'm not sure how many more they would need to be worth their points, -1 to hit when advancing would be cool, being able to advance and charge in the same turn without a warboss nearby would also be nice.
I really doubt they will buff ork bikes to be stronger, space marine players would be annoyed if orks have more wounds , or have a 3+ save. dmg output coudl go up but we are talkign glass cannon territory there. for how weak a ork biker is. I think points drops are the only solution
They should bring back the old smoke cloud rule and give them a cover save
Rismonite wrote: I wonder if Snakebites FNP will work on Ammo Runts and Squigs
EDIT.. does it work on those models now?
Ammo Runts and Bomb Squigs are part of ork units, so any ability which works on their parent units will probably work on them. The closest parallel I can think of would be an Iron Hand armorium cherub, which does benefit from the flesh is weak.
Weazel wrote: I'm super happy with the dakka dakka dakka rule. I used the stratagem on Tankbustas and was pleased with its performance. I can't understand people actually complaining getting it FOR FREE for everyone.
I would actually be pretty happy if we only got Dakkadakkadakka, some flavorful and useful Stratagems and (significant) points reductions to make other options outside of Boyz viable. I'd love to run Dreads and Kans but they're just horribly, horribly overcosted.
No-one's complaining about a free rule (at least no-one I've seen). My concern is that GW will look at Dakka Dakka Dakka and say "Right, we've fixed Ork shooting units" and walk away patting themselves on the back. In reality Ork shooting units are mostly overcosted for what they do and Dakka Dakka Dakka will do nothing to change that. It's great on Tankbustas, and if it works on KMKs then all the better, but for all the rest of the Ork shooting units it doesn't make them viable.
There's also anger over this being a missed opportunity. Always hitting on 6's ignores the reality that if the enemy has any modifers to hit, our shooting units that aren't manned by Grots suffer a 50% reduction in firepower. Lootas that are hitting on 6's are a bad investment, and getting a couple of extra attacks that will usually miss as well doesn't change that. Making Orks ignore all modifers (excepting units that hit ona 4+ because they bother to aim) would be just as fluffy and would make Ork shooting units potentially viable. But instead we get a rule that is going to have very little impact outside of allowing us to shoot at all at some targets. Because if you've forced most of my shooting units to hit on 6's you've already neutered them to the point of ineffectiveness anyway.
Weazel wrote: I'm super happy with the dakka dakka dakka rule. I used the stratagem on Tankbustas and was pleased with its performance. I can't understand people actually complaining getting it FOR FREE for everyone.
I would actually be pretty happy if we only got Dakkadakkadakka, some flavorful and useful Stratagems and (significant) points reductions to make other options outside of Boyz viable. I'd love to run Dreads and Kans but they're just horribly, horribly overcosted.
No-one's complaining about a free rule (at least no-one I've seen). My concern is that GW will look at Dakka Dakka Dakka and say "Right, we've fixed Ork shooting units" and walk away patting themselves on the back. In reality Ork shooting units are mostly overcosted for what they do and Dakka Dakka Dakka will do nothing to change that. It's great on Tankbustas, and if it works on KMKs then all the better, but for all the rest of the Ork shooting units it doesn't make them viable.
There's also anger over this being a missed opportunity. Always hitting on 6's ignores the reality that if the enemy has any modifers to hit, our shooting units that aren't manned by Grots suffer a 50% reduction in firepower. Lootas that are hitting on 6's are a bad investment, and getting a couple of extra attacks that will usually miss as well doesn't change that. Making Orks ignore all modifers (excepting units that hit ona 4+ because they bother to aim) would be just as fluffy and would make Ork shooting units potentially viable. But instead we get a rule that is going to have very little impact outside of allowing us to shoot at all at some targets. Because if you've forced most of my shooting units to hit on 6's you've already neutered them to the point of ineffectiveness anyway.
100% THIS.
DakkaDakkaDakka does NOT fix any of the critical issues with Ork shooting, but it gives GW an opportunity to think "Hey, this buff is huge! Also, if they roll 6's, they've doubled their firepower, for free!" - then they walk away from the rest of the issue.
How many times have you legitimately wanted to use DakkaDakkaDakka on an Ork unit?
Worse yet; I highly suspect that "Always hitting on 6's" will become a core rule in Chapter Approved 2018 - which means the only benefit we get is having it a little earlier, and having a CHANCE (1/36) at generating an extra HIT. Which still has to go through Wound/Armor Save/FNP.
100 shots = ~2.7 extra HITS.
Go ahead and tell me you a) take that much shooting in the first place, and b) ~2.7 HITS is a reasonable buff, and will solve all our shooting woes.
As an Ork player that has Shelved my army for 3 editions now... I feel the pain here, but.... You all do realize there are OTHER armies out there that do shooting proper right?
Im forced into using a 30 boyz Shoota mob because 130 Slugga Boyz just isn't enough and I only have 30 more Shoota boyz in my collection, but I don't expect them to do much realistically.
I'll use Da Jump on them if a target presents itself, but mostly back field them, or use as a Mob Rule bump.
People who expect Orkz to shoot should just go play Guard and get it over with.
Nightlord1987 wrote: As an Ork player that has Shelved my army for 3 editions now... I feel the pain here, but.... You all do realize there are OTHER armies out there that do shooting proper right?
Im forced into using a 30 boyz Shoota mob because 130 Slugga Boyz just isn't enough and I only have 30 more Shoota boyz in my collection, but I don't expect them to do much realistically.
I'll use Da Jump on them if a target presents itself, but mostly back field them, or use as a Mob Rule bump.
People who expect Orkz to shoot should just go play Guard and get it over with.
But people want to play ork shooting lists because of how it is portrayed in the fluff.
IG is probably as close to real world armies as you'll get in 40k (still not particularly close), but as an ork player that's not what I'm after.
Each individual ork should not be "good" at shooting things (the exceptions are big meks with their weird passion-project firearms, but that's another discussion). It also shouldn't matter that one ork is bad at shooting because there's never just one ork shooting at you.
Ork shooting shouldn't be viable because it's accurate, it should be viable because it is such a monstrously large wall of dakka that it doesn't need to be. That's the feeling of ork shooting that makes it different.
Can you do a massed horde of guns with IG? Yes, if you like rank-and-file, standard-issue dudes fighting for their very existence by all means, go have fun and do your thing.
But that's not what draws people to orks (or at least not me).
I want to do a big wall of gun-toting green that sprays so much in your general direction that you'll get hit eventually (I'm one of the weirdos who likes rolling lots of dice).
People who expect Orkz to shoot should just go play Guard and get it over with.
But shooting has always been a major part of the Ork identity. You can go all the way back to Rogue Trader; Orks have always had a lot of guns and enjoy shooting them. That can still be seen today; half the Ork army list is shooting focused units, and virtually all of our units have guns strapped onto them that we MUST pay for. Take Warbikers; it would be fine for example if we could field them as pure assault units, but instead we must pay for a pair of Dakkaguns that push the points cost up. It's virtually impossible to play an Ork list that doesn't shoot, because so much of the stuff in our codex has guns, and we're not talking Sluggas here; we're talking Big Shootas, Rokkits, Dakkaguns.
Furthermore 8th edition is set up that we almost have to have shooting. I can't assault a bunch of Devestators on the upper level of a building because I can't physically place the models up there. I can't use a Warboss or MANZ missile to take out enemy vehicles because Power Klaws (and all their equivalents) are a joke against vehicles now. I can't charge in against tanks and artillery screened by units without shooting those units out first. And yet our shooting is so bad that we commonly can't do any of that.
So instead we take 180 Boyz, squat on objectives and pray the clock runs out before we get wiped. It's boring to play and boring to play against. But doing other stuff, like playing fluffy Ork lists where we take a mix of ramshackle vehicles, a Nob retinue for our boss, some grot artillery and some speshulists to go along with our Boyz is just an exercise in frustration.
The new models look great though.
