It's legal if it's out tomorrow. Since it's currently available for download on Black Library it's legal.

How do you know it's unbalanced again? You've read it all the way through? Researched it's nuances? That's impressive.

 NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:

 NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
You can always refuse to play someone outside of a tournament. Odds are though that it's going to be tournament accepted so get used to it.

That's my point in the end..

Why this, as obviously broken as it is and not the other 40K Approved material?

Is there a good answer for that?

If you're looking to make this into a FW legality argument don't bother man.

It's a codex supplement produced by Games Workshop proper. It'll have the same legality that codexes due most likely (Nova has already said it's in). Name another 40k approved item that's produced by Games Workshop, not FW, that isn't allowed.

Actually, I am trying to get this banned, it is unbalanced as all the previous mentions in this thread prove.. and I believe the decision on whether it is allowed is to be made tomorrow if I read it right...

Cool, get codex necrons banned too, Oh and wave serpents. Oh, lets Ban ID from force weapons too.

 Hulksmash wrote:
It's legal if it's out tomorrow. Since it's currently available for download on Black Library it's legal.

How do you know it's unbalanced again? You've read it all the way through? Researched it's nuances? That's impressive.

I wish I had a dollar for every codex that people said was over powered the first day of release and it turned out it wasn't.

Ugh, I just want to know if I can take my Riptide as an HQ choice

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:
Anyone see a reason why anyone would bother taking the Broadside commander? He literally has nothing that you cant already take on a Broadside Shas'vre. All he adds is the Independent character special rule.

A 4 man broadside team with LOS. It would be a lot easier to put the las cannon hits on to drones and the small arms fire onto suits.

I have the ePub version and there seems to be a few errors in the Appendix. Commander Bravestorm's Unit Type and Wargear is wrong (copied from O'vesa). Shas'O Arra'kon's Wargear is wrong (copied from Shas'O Sha'vastos). Can anyone with the iPad version check and see if it's the same for them?

Oh my god, Tau aren't complete garbage anymore! We need to ban them!

But when Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights dominate an entire edition, that's just fine. It's just when a xenos army rises to the top that something needs to be done, like Necrons.

 Darkness wrote:
His points may make him worth it.

My question is can these commanders be taken even if the big unit isn't.

Do you mean: "Can you take a member of Farsight's Commander Team as an HQ choice which counts as your mandatory selection"? No, I don't see any way to do that.

So the entire team must be taken?

You do not need Farsight .

When choosing a Farsight Enclaves army, you have access to a special unit called Farsight’s Commander Team. If you choose to take this unit, Commander Farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team as normal; he has the Commander Team instead. This special unit is an HQ choice that does not take of a Force Organisation slot and consists of up to seven other battlesuits chosen from the Eight. They must be equipped exactly as described; the Signature Systems rule above does not apply to them. They can take no other options. Each of the Commander Team models is Unique and has the Independent Character special rule.

But do you need farsight himself for it, or will any HQ (apart from the forbidden shadowsun and anuva) be enough and you can take them.

And given that, can they be the warlord? (assuming their LD equals or beats the standard HQ you took)


(I dont know what will be funnier, warlord riptide, or warlord broadside.
riptide got more potential, but broadside is outright funny)

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So the entire team must be taken?

No, but you can't take one of them without taking a unit called "Farsight's Commander Team" which doesn't take up a slot. That selection can consist of just one model ("up to seven"). Farsight himself always takes up a slot, and can take a regular Bodyguard Team as normal /unless/ you take Farsight's Commander Team. Farsight does not appear to be required in order to take FCT.

So can I take one of them for my compulsary HQ choice?

Can anyone speak to the "Enforcer" battlesuit? What is the difference?

And it looks like one can be your Warlord. But you have to take a Cadre Fireblade or Darkstrider as your mandatory HQ choice in order to have the Riptide or Broadside be your Warlord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So can I take one of them for my compulsary HQ choice?

I don't see any allowance for this.

pantsonhead wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So the entire team must be taken?

No, but you can't take one of them without taking a unit called "Farsight's Commander Team" which doesn't take up a slot. That selection can consist of just one model ("up to seven"). Farsight himself always takes up a slot, and can take a regular Bodyguard Team as normal /unless/ you take Farsight's Commander Team. Farsight does not appear to be required in order to take FCT.

You need Farsight - its why you can take up to 7 of the 8, rather than 8 of the 8, and also why it mentions you that selection replaces the bodyguard unit which is unlocked by farsight originally - though I agree the wording is abysmal and suggests you don't need him

Target wrote:

You need Farsight - its why you can take up to 7 of the 8, rather than 8 of the 8, and also why it mentions you that selection replaces the bodyguard unit which is unlocked by farsight originally - though I agree the wording is abysmal and suggests you don't need him

I thought this at first too, and maybe that's what's intended, but that's clearly not what it says. Taking the FCT means that Farsight can't take a Bodyguard Team. That's the only conflict. You can take the FCT in a list with a regular Commander who also takes a Bodyguard Team. And you can take Farsight with a Bodyguard Team as long as you don't take FCT.

Target wrote:

pantsonhead wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So the entire team must be taken?

No, but you can't take one of them without taking a unit called "Farsight's Commander Team" which doesn't take up a slot. That selection can consist of just one model ("up to seven"). Farsight himself always takes up a slot, and can take a regular Bodyguard Team as normal /unless/ you take Farsight's Commander Team. Farsight does not appear to be required in order to take FCT.

You need Farsight - its why you can take up to 7 of the 8, rather than 8 of the 8, and also why it mentions you that selection replaces the bodyguard unit which is unlocked by farsight originally - though I agree the wording is abysmal and suggests you don't need him

Can't say I agree. Granted, I haven't seen the full wording yet but based on the screen shots provided you don't need Farsight to use the command team.

Target wrote:

pantsonhead wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So the entire team must be taken?

No, but you can't take one of them without taking a unit called "Farsight's Commander Team" which doesn't take up a slot. That selection can consist of just one model ("up to seven"). Farsight himself always takes up a slot, and can take a regular Bodyguard Team as normal /unless/ you take Farsight's Commander Team. Farsight does not appear to be required in order to take FCT.

You need Farsight - its why you can take up to 7 of the 8, rather than 8 of the 8, and also why it mentions you that selection replaces the bodyguard unit which is unlocked by farsight originally - though I agree the wording is abysmal and suggests you don't need him

I keep re-reading it, and I can't actually find anything that states you need farsight himself for it.
He is one of the "command squad", but including him there are 8 on the list and you are told you can take "...up to seven battlesuits chosen from the eight ...", what leads me to believe that he is treated just like the others, and as such you can take farsight himself as part of the "command team", and as such he is outside the FoC (yet still hq), just looses the normal ability to bring 7 bodyguards.

Actually, nothing I see actually prevents you from getting farsight from the main codex, with his bodyguards, then a regular commander and the command team (including yet another farsight) from an allied detachment.

So they must be attached like a bodyguard team? Well that sucks, the riptide is only LD9 so no warlord for him

 Hulksmash wrote:

Target wrote:

pantsonhead wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So the entire team must be taken?

No, but you can't take one of them without taking a unit called "Farsight's Commander Team" which doesn't take up a slot. That selection can consist of just one model ("up to seven"). Farsight himself always takes up a slot, and can take a regular Bodyguard Team as normal /unless/ you take Farsight's Commander Team. Farsight does not appear to be required in order to take FCT.

You need Farsight - its why you can take up to 7 of the 8, rather than 8 of the 8, and also why it mentions you that selection replaces the bodyguard unit which is unlocked by farsight originally - though I agree the wording is abysmal and suggests you don't need him

Can't say I agree. Granted, I haven't seen the full wording yet but based on the screen shots provided you don't need Farsight to use the command team.

That was my first read on it too - however I think the intent is that farsight is required, and wouldn't be surprised if the real copy of the book spelled it out (rather than the bootlegs we're all working from).

I'm avoiding wetting myself over one of my riptides finding a sense of self, because I fear it'll be dashed as of tomorrow.

Emmm, even a bodyguard team does not have to be attached.
And these guys are ALL IC's, meaning they can brake off and join squads as they wish

And even if the riptide can't be your warlord (still don't see why you cant take the "command team" and pick only him, and have strider fill your required HQ slot, and as both are Ld9 O'vesa can be warlord) there is still some uses for a riptide that can quite literally turn into a bullet sponge for any other unit.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
So they must be attached like a bodyguard team? Well that sucks, the riptide is only LD9 so no warlord for him

Bodyguard Teams don't have to be attached. And I don't think anything's stopping you from taking the Riptide as your Warlord as long as you make your compulsory HQ choice one of the codex's two Ld 9 options.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Emmm, even a bodyguard team does not have to be attached.
And these guys are ALL IC's, meaning they can brake off and join squads as they wish

And even if the riptide can't be your warlord (still don't see why you cant take the "command team" and pick only him, and have strider fill your required HQ slot, and as both are Ld9 O'vesa can be warlord) there is still some uses for a riptide that can quite literally turn into a bullet sponge for any other unit.

Yes, if legal I'll be putting O'vesa with her 2 shielded missile drones with 3 target lock broadsides, majority t6, and a riptide to tank wounds.

But I have to remain calm...must REMAIN CALMMM

No requirement to take farsight; but a second commander may take a bodyguard team regularly if irs wanted

What i'm interested in is the Fusion blades, what to they do, and if they can be taken by multiple Suits or only by one like other Sig systems.

Better yet, it is said Ovesa's special ability is that he can reroll his nova activation roll, meaning you got a fair chance it wont fail you even once all game long.
Now THAT'S sweet.

But I still wonder about the broadside IC, I REALLY want to know what he got. (Ob'lotai 9-0, what kind of name is that?!)


Also, fusion blades-if they are signature (and as such one character only), they are doomed to the same fate as the OG, CiB and AFP to be forgotten. weapons need to repeat.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
What i'm interested in is the Fusion blades, what to they do, and if they can be taken by multiple Suits or only by one like other Sig systems.

Only one, and then no regular sig systems friom codex tau allowed. Also each turn roll a d6, on a one they break

I cant wait to try these shenanigans.

@Target

I just downloaded the Epub. There is no change in wording from what we've seen so far.

Oh and this:

ALLIES

In addition to following the Allies Matrix for Codex: Tau Empire, Farsight Enclaves detachments and Codex: Tau Empire detachments may ally together as Battle Brothers

Weird, commander bravestorm is ina riptide suit, but has T5

 davou wrote:
Weird, commander bravestorm is ina riptide suit, but has T5

He is in Iridium suit I thought.

Nooe, JP monstrous creature in riptide suit

Epub or Ibook? Ibook shows Iridium battlesuit.

Unless "bravestorm" and "O'vesa" are the same guy, then "bravestorm" is NOT in a riptide suit. (tough iridium makes me happy, can anyone confirm iridium is still a choice for a custom commander in a farsight force?)

Epub, looks likenancopy/paste error..... I ain't complaining , us non apple users get a much better version :p

Epub has an error. Bravestorm has the Ovesa entry copied into it.

Oh, and this isn't nearly as broken as the basic tau book. It's got some decent stuff but you'll probably see it more as allies than stand alone.

 davou wrote:
Nooe, JP monstrous creature in riptide suit

There seems to be a few errors in the ePub file. Check my post at http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/390/537029.page#5863752

 BoomWolf wrote:
Unless "bravestorm" and "O'vesa" are the same guy, then "bravestorm" is NOT in a riptide suit. (tough iridium makes me happy, can anyone confirm iridium is still a choice for a custom commander in a farsight force?)

http://www.imgur.com/ydCTJ8U.png

And no, if you choose farsight you give up the core sig systems

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Target

I just downloaded the Epub. There is no change in wording from what we've seen so far.

Oh and this:

ALLIES

In addition to following the Allies Matrix for Codex: Tau Empire, Farsight Enclaves detachments and Codex: Tau Empire detachments may ally together as Battle Brothers

Neat. So you can take a Commander with CCN, MSS, and PEN, an Ethereal (compulsory choice to be used elsewhere), the IC Riptide, and a regular Riptide with at least 1 drone. They join up and you have rerolls to-hit, ignore cover, and a PEN rule on 2 Riptides and 3-4 shielded missile drones. The regular Riptide can take a target lock.(and can take one of the Farsight signature systems, if you really want one) so that you can split fire to some extent. The IC Riptide can stand in front and pass off wounds to the regular Riptide, and then to the Commander.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can't take a Farseer and some Windriders if you do this, though.

 davou wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Unless "bravestorm" and "O'vesa" are the same guy, then "bravestorm" is NOT in a riptide suit. (tough iridium makes me happy, can anyone confirm iridium is still a choice for a custom commander in a farsight force?)

http://www.imgur.com/ydCTJ8U.png

And no, if you choose farsight you give up the core sig systems

As some as said, it seems like a copypaste error, and will probably be fixed very shortly. that entry makes no sense inside or outside of context.

Also, I was hoping the iridium shows up in the farsight systems as well, considering one of his guys is supposed to have it. (though plasma/flamer, what kind of setup is that?!)

That is what I dont like, their weapons are.........Odd

Do they have some sort of special rules that help make sense of them? (or make them noteworty in any way?)

GHAAA
I cant wait till freaking october to get my copy, but the android version is so crappy, and I don't have an I-havetoomuchmoney.

pantsonhead wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Target

I just downloaded the Epub. There is no change in wording from what we've seen so far.

Oh and this:

ALLIES

In addition to following the Allies Matrix for Codex: Tau Empire, Farsight Enclaves detachments and Codex: Tau Empire detachments may ally together as Battle Brothers

Neat. So you can take a Commander with CCN, MSS, and PEN, an Ethereal (compulsory choice to be used elsewhere), the IC Riptide, and a regular Riptide with at least 1 drone. They join up and you have rerolls to-hit, ignore cover, and a PEN rule on 2 Riptides and 3-4 shielded missile drones. The regular Riptide can take a target lock.(and can take one of the Farsight signature systems, if you really want one) so that you can split fire to some extent. The IC Riptide can stand in front and pass off wounds to the regular Riptide, and then to the Commander.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Can't take a Farseer and some Windriders if you do this, though.

The way the rule is worded, I dont think that this is possible either. It says that any unit that may usually select items from the signature systems list in the tau codex, may instead only select from the Farsight suppliment signature systems list. It seems to be the cost of taking this codex, no more super-Utility commanders bouncing around.

Unless you do allies shenanigans ofcourse.

Thats what I mean, even if you ally in tau, the wording says army rather than detachment. It precludes regular signature systems across the board

Except that "army" references only to the same codex, and a supplement is technically another codex, who is built as a modified tau codex.

Rules in one NEVER alter the rules in another, no matter how similar they are.
On the same vain, SM special characters does not influence units from other marine codcies with the same name.

 davou wrote:
Thats what I mean, even if you ally in tau, the wording says army rather than detachment. It precludes regular signature systems across the board

Good catch... The Imperial Guard players salute you

 BoomWolf wrote:
Except that "army" references only to the same codex, and a supplement is technically another codex, who is built as a modified tau codex.

As far as I can tell pg. 109 in the BRB says that an allied detachment is part of your army.

Hey Gents its available: http://www.blacklibrary.com/Home/Search-Results.html?filter_type=6&filter_Action=0&filter_name=SearchTerm&submit=GO&filter_value=Farsight

You can view with adobe digital edition on comp.

So Codex:Tau (3 Riptides) with Codex: Farsight allies (1 Riptide HQ, 1 Riptide Elite) = 5 Riptides?

The Gundam Wing 40K army is actually possible?

 Tomb King wrote:
Hey Gents its available: http://www.blacklibrary.com/Home/Search-Results.html?filter_type=6&filter_Action=0&filter_name=SearchTerm&submit=GO&filter_value=Farsight

You can view with adobe digital edition on comp.

Are you kidding, that's almost two whole squads of Imperial Guard Stormtroopers http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440173a&prodId=prod810031a&rootCatGameStyle=

You know how useful those Stormie's are.....

 Oaka wrote:
So Codex:Tau (3 Riptides) with Codex: Farsight allies (1 Riptide HQ, 1 Riptide Elite) = 5 Riptides?

The Gundam Wing 40K army is actually possible?

Great Tau'Va I hope so, that sounds hilarious!

With Farsight (assuming he's required) it runs you 1383. So you could still add an Etheral and 68 Kroot. This includes a Crisis suit team as required.

Alrighty then, i've gone and made a list for myself, at 1500 points i have 11 crisis suits, 22 shield drones, a riptide and 12 pathfinders.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/540990.page#5864160

Interesting that you now have to pay for the compulsory bonding ritual, but it's a tax worth paying for crisis suits as troops.

I want this lol. But I dont really want a ipad version, prefer book, even though i have a ipad.

 Hulksmash wrote:
With Farsight (assuming he's required) it runs you 1383. So you could still add an Etheral and 68 Kroot. This includes a Crisis suit team as required.

Still need the 3 Crisis Suits

You missed his last sentence.

Do we have clarification on some of the new rules? Namely Commander Bravestorm? Also has anyone made a list?

 Marthike wrote:
I want this lol. But I dont really want a ipad version, prefer book, even though i have a ipad.

The ipad version is actually quite nice, tap on a special rule/wargear and you get a little pop-up giving you the stats on what it does ingame, as well as showing all related special rules to it. Bookmarks give you easy access to the pages that matter too.

Then again, it just isn't quite the same as holding that big old lump of dead tree in your hands

Downloading my ipad version now

So...Anyone find out if farsight is required to take the Weirdo commanders?

 BoomWolf wrote:
Rules in one NEVER alter the rules in another, no matter how similar they are.
On the same vain, SM special characters does not influence units from other marine codcies with the same name.

I have wondered about this, Dynarth Lysander has never been errata'd from preventing passing his Bolter Mastery reroll rule to non-C:SM units like EVERY other SM Special character.

No chance of that happening in this situation is there?

 Sidstyler wrote:
Oh my god, Tau aren't complete garbage anymore! We need to ban them!

But when Imperial Guard, Space Wolves, and Grey Knights dominate an entire edition, that's just fine. It's just when a xenos army rises to the top that something needs to be done, like Necrons.

Yes, because no one complained about Space Wolves or Grey Knights during their heyday.

The Marine/Xenos distinction on this point only exists in your mind; the new Tau Codex hasn't recieved the same amount of hate as either GK or SW.

There were complaints, but I don't remember very many people explicitly stating they should be banned. This supplement is actually one of the first times I've seen someone suggest that a 40k codex or supplement should just be banned outright almost literally on the day of its release.

So no, I don't think it's completely in my mind. And maybe the new Tau codex hasn't generated the same amount of hate as either GK or SW, but seeing as how it also hasn't been out for as long as either of those books that doesn't really mean much.

People were actively fighting to house-rule Cleansing Flame. Besides, there's plenty of supplements that people instaban, one of the more common arguments being that there's too many/too god units in favour of the Imperium. So yeah, it's entirely in your mind.

"House-rule Cleansing Flame" does not equal "Ban Codex: Grey Knights!"

Actually, I don't even remember Cleansing Flame being that much of a problem. Warp Quake is the one that really caused issues because it basically made Daemons unplayable, being forced to deep strike in every game and all.

And the other "supplements" you're talking about are likely Forge World units and it's not the same thing.

Banning one supplement isn't the same as banning another supplement? Let's just agree to disagree.

Not sure how you get to this:

 thejughead wrote:
You do not need Farsight .

From this:

When choosing a Farsight Enclaves army, you have access to a special unit called Farsight’s Commander Team. If you choose to take this unit, Commander Farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team as normal; he has the Commander Team instead. This special unit is an HQ choice that does not take of a Force Organisation slot and consists of up to seven other battlesuits chosen from the Eight. They must be equipped exactly as described; the Signature Systems rule above does not apply to them. They can take no other options. Each of the Commander Team models is Unique and has the Independent Character special rule.

Unless the army list itself contains some other way to gain access to the Commander Team then it looks to me like the only way to have it is to take Farsight, and it takes the place of his normal Crisis Bodyguard team. There's no mention in that quote of any other way to take one.

It's a special unit available to a Farsight Enclaves army which is an HQ choice that doesn't take up a slot. That explains how you go about adding one to a list, and nothing says Farsight is required.

The bit you're focusing on is saying that Farsight can't take a Bodyguard Team if you take the Commander Team. That's all. You've got it kind of backwards. If you take the Commander Team, your other options change, but they don't change so as to make Farsight mandatory.

Note that nothing there says that having Farsight specifically allows you to take the Commander Team. So if you don't have permission to take the unit without Farsight, you don't have permission even with Farsight. The Commander Team isn't said to replace the Bodyguard Team for Farsight; it merely prevents him from taking a Bodyguard Team.

 Morollan wrote:
Not sure how you get to this:

 thejughead wrote:
You do not need Farsight .

From this:

When choosing a Farsight Enclaves army, you have access to a special unit called Farsight’s Commander Team. If you choose to take this unit, Commander Farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team as normal; he has the Commander Team instead. This special unit is an HQ choice that does not take of a Force Organisation slot and consists of up to seven other battlesuits chosen from the Eight. They must be equipped exactly as described; the Signature Systems rule above does not apply to them. They can take no other options. Each of the Commander Team models is Unique and has the Independent Character special rule.

Unless the army list itself contains some other way to gain access to the Commander Team then it looks to me like the only way to have it is to take Farsight, and it takes the place of his normal Crisis Bodyguard team. There's no mention in that quote of any other way to take one.

Pretty much, no Farsight, no Commander team.

At least you don't need Farsight as a Warlord to make XV8s troops, which is nice.
I absolutely loved the fluff pages though, which is mainly why I got it.

But from what I've seen so far, that unit makes no sense at all :\
One is a broadside and cant even join them
The others got such a mismatch of guns its not even funny.


Can someone who already has his reveal what is the enforcer armor, and can a custom commander get one?
And can you get the earth caste pilot array without the special dude? (because farsight himself is not my stick, but the enclave is, and I damn hoped that riptide can be my warlord.:\)
(also, given new warlord traits, I assume farsight is insta-locked into a new one, or does he still get the DS from the regular codex?)

Isn't enforcer armor just a special crisis suit for commanders? In the parent Tau codex it's no different from a regular crisis suit, it just has knobs on its knees.

 BoomWolf wrote:
But from what I've seen so far, that unit makes no sense at all :\
One is a broadside and cant even join them
The others got such a mismatch of guns its not even funny.


Can someone who already has his reveal what is the enforcer armor, and can a custom commander get one?
And can you get the earth caste pilot array without the special dude? (because farsight himself is not my stick, but the enclave is, and I damn hoped that riptide can be my warlord.:\)
(also, given new warlord traits, I assume farsight is insta-locked into a new one, or does he still get the DS from the regular codex?)

The only sense the unit makes is that it is all the named characters of the Enclaves in a named unit.
The problem is they are all just generic commanders with some guns they have given a loadout to.

The 'Enforcer' Armour is just a name for the fancy, less rediculous one the finecast generic commander has access to.

He still has the Through Boldness, Victory trait, the problem is RAW, he cannot have it, as an Enclave warlord has no permission to roll on the Tau table.

The Earth Caste Pilot Array is available to any model that has access to signature systems. In an Enclave list this includes XV104 Riptide Battlesuits.

So, "enforcer" does not actually have any rules associated? because it was listed in the wargear of one of the guys IIRC
Is there some other iriduim-like wargear? (I really, REALLY wish I can go enclave and keep my iridium warlord, as it seems riptide warlord is out of the equation.)

And for the trait, does not seem an issue, as he is not rolling at all. just like Ralai has "the assassin", despite it being on no table from the firstplace.

pantsonhead wrote:
It's a special unit available to a Farsight Enclaves army which is an HQ choice that doesn't take up a slot. That explains how you go about adding one to a list, and nothing says Farsight is required.

The bit you're focusing on is saying that Farsight can't take a Bodyguard Team if you take the Commander Team. That's all. You've got it kind of backwards. If you take the Commander Team, your other options change, but they don't change so as to make Farsight mandatory.

Note that nothing there says that having Farsight specifically allows you to take the Commander Team. So if you don't have permission to take the unit without Farsight, you don't have permission even with Farsight. The Commander Team isn't said to replace the Bodyguard Team for Farsight; it merely prevents him from taking a Bodyguard Team.

I have to disagree. There is nothing in that paragraph that gives you permission to rake the Commander Team other than as a replacement for Farsight's bodyguard.

 BoomWolf wrote:
So, "enforcer" does not actually have any rules associated? because it was listed in the wargear of one of the guys IIRC
Is there some other iriduim-like wargear? (I really, REALLY wish I can go enclave and keep my iridium warlord, as it seems riptide warlord is out of the equation.)

And for the trait, does not seem an issue, as he is not rolling at all. just like Ralai has "the assassin", despite it being on no table from the firstplace.

No, I'm pretty sure the background on it is, its the new prototype suit commanders have been getting and that is why they can normally take 4 hardpoints worth of equipment as opposed to the 3 that limits normal XV8 teams.
No, I'm afraid not, however whilst I think of it, someone should ask FW if the units in IA3: 2nd Ed. can be used in an FE army? (I would say yes, as C:FE is just a modification to the 'standard' C:Tau), particularly interested in the two signature systems (no, for the afforementioned reason).

YMDC: On the Farsight Trait issue
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/541003.page#5864512

full rules and some pictures here if not posted yet posted yet

Here's a summary of the rules

I have a question, Does it have images of Farsight's command team? So you know how to paint them and stuff.

Yes, they are just in a similar scheme to Farsight himself and they reposed the arms and legs of the XV8s while they were at it.

Ok, looking at the commanders I must ask WHY
Why would I EVER want a single one of them!?

Far weaker warlord traits, senseless wargear (except the riptide one), forced bonding knifes....

Unless you REALLY want crisis troops spam, there is no reason to use this as your main codex, at best you ally in for 1 riptide with the wargear, a team or two of crisis and then have your secondary commander as the allied HQ (so you can still have the better HQs from the main codex)

I like the double negative on Divergent Destiny

RAW, you must take Shadowsun and Aun'Va

 Morollan wrote:

I have to disagree. There is nothing in that paragraph that gives you permission to rake the Commander Team other than as a replacement for Farsight's bodyguard.

Can you expand on this? Like I said, maybe you could argue that you have no permission to take a Commander Team at all, but I can't see how to make those words mean that you can only take one if you have Farsight. It doesn't say that the Commander Team replaces the Bodyguard Team option for Farsight - it only says that if your list includes a Commander Team, then Farsight can't take a Bodyguard Team.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 airmang wrote:
Yeah, you can have the riptide character join a unit of stealth suits for some added stealth and shrouded.

Great god, the supplement is out for 5 minutes and someone found a way to abuse it XD (make him your warlord for added insanity.)

As long as you do not join during deployment as that is now allowed.

The problem with the wording on Farsight's 'eight' is the vagueness of when it's used with farsight.

"When choosing a Farsight Enclaves army, you have access to a special unit called Farsight's Commander Team."

This gives permission to use it.

"If you choose to take this unit, Commander Farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team as normal; he has the Commander Team instead."

This is the unclear part. Does this mean you have to take Farsight to use it, or is this just a ruling to stop Farsight from taking both his seven bodyguard and the command team IF you take him as your HQ. Essentially farsight can take his seven bodyguard, but the command team has to be it.

What needs clearing up is if it is only for Farsight, or can be taken with any HQ, but has special rules when Farsight is your HQ.

Pottsey wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 airmang wrote:
Yeah, you can have the riptide character join a unit of stealth suits for some added stealth and shrouded.

Great god, the supplement is out for 5 minutes and someone found a way to abuse it XD (make him your warlord for added insanity.)

As long as you do not join during deployment as that is now allowed.

Forget about it, he is not an IC.

In any case, still no reason to pick him up, or any other of the 7, they all suck, hard. (and they are all GENERIC. not a single unique special rule between them all!)

Actually, it says that all the command team are independent characters, broadside and riptide included. So yes you can have a riptide joining squads.

"Each of the Commander Team models is Unique and has the Independent Character special rule."

Well, at least that.
They still cost each like they would if you built them yourself, and require farsight to take (but you cant have the normal, GOOD bodyguards then)

So, only the broadside and riptide offer anything (being IC), at the price of having farsight as your warlord, but without the 7 bodyguards.

Yea, they will never be taken, ever.
The only reason to use the rules is to have an allied detachment with a riptide that got the ECPA, a team or two of suits and a generic commander (probably be used for mark'o)

Having seen the point cost on those commanders (most of which are 150+ points...) I doubt I'll ever consider using a member of the farsight command squad.

You'd almost be better off taking regular tau as allies, building your own commander using the old sig systems and taking a 6 man FW squad as tax - to make it actually worth it, you could include an (allies) elite crisis squad with shasvre who has M3S, CnC and the standard marker drone / missile pod setup on his squad mates.

The only signature system I'd take is the talisman as it is pretty much a weaker shield generator but does have the nice psychic defenses.

Having a look at what we trade for crisis troops it is actually appearing more like a fun novelty army than anything competitive :(



One thing I'd like to GW to clear up though..... is the farsight command team. This is my interpretations.

Upon choosing to run a farsight enclave army you have access to this squad, choosing anywhere between 1-7 out of the 8 characters. Since these are IC you can then split them up to go into whichever squad you like.

Farsight is not required, but if you do choose to use farsight then you can no longer take crisis bodyguards since the command team is considered the bodyguard unit now.

However, the command team and no single member from it can count towards you compulsory HQ requirement. Meaning that if we want to run just commander bravestorm for example, it is not possible unless we have at least 1 of the standard HQ choices (ethereal, regular crisis commander, etc....) or an allowed special character such as farsight.

That is pretty much how it is laid out I'm not really trying to break the rules using word tricks. Does everyone agree.... or not so much?

I ask because I would like to include sub-commander torchstar without farsight himself (I prefer my own custom commander). He actually seems worth his points considering he is great with the following setup:

torchstar: 2x flamer, target lock, drone controller, M3S, neuroweb jammer
3x crisis + 4x marker drone: 3x Shas'ui /w 2x missile pod, target lock, bonded
352 pts

He comes with 2 additional marker drones built into his price (the squad would have a total of 4x BS5 marker drones), leadership 10, and his flamers are nice depending on the situation.

Yeah, it's not nearly broken. It adds some options but nothing completely ridiculous.

"If you choose to use this unit" means IF you CHOOSE to use the SPECIAL COMMANDER team, doesn't it? That would mean you can CHOOSE whether to use Farsight with the normal bodyguards OR Farsight with the commander team.

"When choosing a Farsight Enclaves army, you have access to a special UNIT called Farsight’s Commander Team. IF you CHOOSE to take this UNIT"


As you can see, UNIT in this case clearly refers to "Farsight's COMMANDER TEAM", not Farsight himself. You can CHOOSE whether to use Farsight's COMANNDER TEAM or Farsight's normal team.

For those talking about allying in 'regular' Tau...
As far as I can tell, the supplements are still run as the standard Codex, meaning it's a Tau Empire army, meaning you can't ally Tau Empire in.

 gossipmeng wrote:
Having seen the point cost on those commanders (most of which are 150+ points...) I doubt I'll ever consider using a member of the farsight command squad.

You'd almost be better off taking regular tau as allies, building your own commander using the old sig systems and taking a 6 man FW squad as tax - to make it actually worth it, you could include an (allies) elite crisis squad with shasvre who has M3S, CnC and the standard marker drone / missile pod setup on his squad mates.

The only signature system I'd take is the talisman as it is pretty much a weaker shield generator but does have the nice psychic defenses.

Having a look at what we trade for crisis troops it is actually appearing more like a fun novelty army than anything competitive :(



One thing I'd like to GW to clear up though..... is the farsight command team. This is my interpretations.

Upon choosing to run a farsight enclave army you have access to this squad, choosing anywhere between 1-7 out of the 8 characters. Since these are IC you can then split them up to go into whichever squad you like.

Farsight is not required, but if you do choose to use farsight then you can no longer take crisis bodyguards since the command team is considered the bodyguard unit now.

However, the command team and no single member from it can count towards you compulsory HQ requirement. Meaning that if we want to run just commander bravestorm for example, it is not possible unless we have at least 1 of the standard HQ choices (ethereal, regular crisis commander, etc....) or an allowed special character such as farsight.

That is pretty much how it is laid out I'm not really trying to break the rules using word tricks. Does everyone agree.... or not so much?

I ask because I would like to include sub-commander torchstar without farsight himself (I prefer my own custom commander). He actually seems worth his points considering he is great with the following setup:

torchstar: 2x flamer, target lock, drone controller, M3S, neuroweb jammer
3x crisis + 4x marker drone: 3x Shas'ui /w 2x missile pod, target lock, bonded
352 pts

He comes with 2 additional marker drones built into his price (the squad would have a total of 4x BS5 marker drones), leadership 10, and his flamers are nice depending on the situation.

This is how I read the rules. I'm convinced that the rules are an after thought for GW. They pay the writers a hefty sum for the fluff, but have an intern write the rules. The cut and paste errors are just unprofessional.

The real question is can you deploy the commanders into different units if you take more than one. The IC rules indicate that they can join units by being deployed in coherency with that unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ovion wrote:
For those talking about allying in 'regular' Tau...
As far as I can tell, the supplements are still run as the standard Codex, meaning it's a Tau Empire army, meaning you can't ally Tau Empire in.

The rules give specific permission to do so:

ALLIES
In addition to following the Allies Matrix for Codex: Tau Empire, Farsight Enclaves detachments and Codex: Tau Empire detachments may ally together as Battle Brothers.

The amount of inaccuracies in this thread are astounding lol.

Yes the bodyguard are ICs and can be farmed out, I like using the broadside IC to add to a standard missileside unit. Also the Riptide IC isn't bad and I am sure I can find a use for Bravestorm guy seems like he would be a bitch to kill.

A friend was wondering about markerlights and running a standard Tau allied detachment is allowed, will the markelights cross over? They should as all the units are still coming technically out of Codex: Tau Empire.

Shadowsun... I am a big fan of hers, by using an allied standard Tau force you should be able to include her. maybe...

So many questions will need to be answered in the FAQ the wording on the 8 is also confusing. It almost sounds like you don't need Farsight to take the 8. Makes sense these are Farsight's councilors you would expect them to lead in his place. They are an HQ slot so taking the IC Riptide could conceivable be your warlord.

TiamatRoar wrote:
"If you choose to use this unit" means IF you CHOOSE to use the SPECIAL COMMANDER team, doesn't it? That would mean you can CHOOSE whether to use Farsight with the normal bodyguards OR Farsight with the commander team.

"When choosing a Farsight Enclaves army, you have access to a special UNIT called Farsight’s Commander Team. IF you CHOOSE to take this UNIT"


As you can see, UNIT in this case clearly refers to "Farsight's COMMANDER TEAM", not Farsight himself. You can CHOOSE whether to use Farsight's COMANNDER TEAM or Farsight's normal team.

Perhaps. But the UNIT - as you so eloquently caps-lock it - is made up of up to 7 Crisis Suits selected from a list of 8 available. That list, in turn, includes Farsight himself.

So by that logic, if the Commander Team does not include Farsight himself, I could take Farsight and (!) take the the Commander Team UNIT, which may also include Farsight, giving me two Farsights?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

valace2 wrote:


Shadowsun... I am a big fan of hers, by using an allied standard Tau force you should be able to include her. maybe...

According to the current wording of the Divergent Destiny rules you cannot not include Shadowsun.

Double negative for the win

So is the riptide commander only s5 t5? or was this a misprint? if he has full riptide stats and 2 drones, coming in at just under 200pts is a steal.

 Zweischneid wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
"If you choose to use this unit" means IF you CHOOSE to use the SPECIAL COMMANDER team, doesn't it? That would mean you can CHOOSE whether to use Farsight with the normal bodyguards OR Farsight with the commander team.

"When choosing a Farsight Enclaves army, you have access to a special UNIT called Farsight’s Commander Team. IF you CHOOSE to take this UNIT"


As you can see, UNIT in this case clearly refers to "Farsight's COMMANDER TEAM", not Farsight himself. You can CHOOSE whether to use Farsight's COMANNDER TEAM or Farsight's normal team.

Perhaps. But the UNIT - as you so eloquently caps-lock it - is made up of up to 7 Crisis Suits selected from a list of 8 available. That list, in turn, includes Farsight himself.

So by that logic, if the Commander Team does not include Farsight himself, I could take Farsight and (!) take the the Commander Team UNIT, which may also include Farsight, giving me two Farsights?

Only if you like ignoring the "Unique" rule for Special Characters.

It's a shame about the dawnblade. I was hoping the short lifespan was caused by ethereals, and free from it farsight lived longer.

Quark wrote:


Only if you like ignoring the "Unique" rule for Special Characters.

I am not.

But if the Commander Team replaces (by TiamatRoar's argument) ONLY the bodyguard, but not Farsight himself, why than is Farsight on the list of characters that make the Commander Team.

Moreover, if the Commander Team itself doesn't take a FoC-slot, and Farsight is a part of the Commander Team, can you now use Farsight without taking a FoC-slot?

 Zweischneid wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:
"If you choose to use this unit" means IF you CHOOSE to use the SPECIAL COMMANDER team, doesn't it? That would mean you can CHOOSE whether to use Farsight with the normal bodyguards OR Farsight with the commander team.

"When choosing a Farsight Enclaves army, you have access to a special UNIT called Farsight’s Commander Team. IF you CHOOSE to take this UNIT"


As you can see, UNIT in this case clearly refers to "Farsight's COMMANDER TEAM", not Farsight himself. You can CHOOSE whether to use Farsight's COMANNDER TEAM or Farsight's normal team.

Perhaps. But the UNIT - as you so eloquently caps-lock it - is made up of up to 7 Crisis Suits selected from a list of 8 available. That list, in turn, includes Farsight himself.

So by that logic, if the Commander Team does not include Farsight himself, I could take Farsight and (!) take the the Commander Team UNIT, which may also include Farsight, giving me two Farsights?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

valace2 wrote:


Shadowsun... I am a big fan of hers, by using an allied standard Tau force you should be able to include her. maybe...

According to the current wording of the Divergent Destiny rules you cannot not include Shadowsun.

Double negative for the win

Just noticed the cannot not take Aun Va or Shadowsun. Thats kind of funny. This book is a mess.

Would still assume that you could take Shadowsun as part of an allied detachment.

I would take Shadowsun and a support commander in my primary detachment combine them with a 3x plasma crisis team and the Riptide from an allied Enclave attachment. Yes you lose the T6 from the Riptide and drones, but he is a super wound soaker a 2+ 3+(he should get the 3+ save off from the nova reactor thanks to that sig system he has. Have Shadowsun be the warlord to get the mess shrounding and 3d6 jump move. Its pretty sick.

Shadowsun 135pts
Commander w/ MSS, PC, C&C Node, VRT, Drone Controller, 2x Gun Drones, 172pts

O'Vesa 305pts

3x Crisis team 286pts
Shas'vre w/ Talisman, Plasma Gun, and 2x Gun Drones (one converted to a warscaper drone)
2x Shas'ui w/ 2x Plasma Guns, Target Lock, and 2x Gun Drones

Comes out to 898pts

Sounds like a lot of fun You still need fillers to get it up to 1500 or 1850. You have to get the Enclave attachment another HQ maybe a Fireblade. Add in another crisis team for more scoring.

For the Primary attachment add in Firewarriors and maybe another Riptide and some Missilesides.

Would still assume that you could take Shadowsun as part of an allied detachment.

A Farsight Enclaves army cannot not include Aun’Va or Commander Shadowsun.

The intent is if the Farisght Enclave is the primary then you cannot take Aun'va or Shadowsun. Tau Regular Army would have to be the primary.

 thejughead wrote:

Would still assume that you could take Shadowsun as part of an allied detachment.

A Farsight Enclaves army cannot not include Aun’Va or Commander Shadowsun.

The intent is if the Farisght Enclave is the primary then you cannot take Aun'va or Shadowsun. Tau Regular Army would have to be the primary.

Sorry I see what you mean, with the unit I posted above the standard Tau force would be the primary, has to to get the support commander and Shadowsun. Unless I missed something that says an Enclave force has to be the primary this should work.

But it says army, not detachment. So then the question: is an army w/ Farsight allies a "Farsight Enclave army"?

Man, but the wording is terrible. If they meant detachment they should have said detachment. If they meant army they should have said "army with a Farsight Enclave detachment."

Speaking of which, both Iyanden and Farsight say one supplement per army, so it looks like no mixing the two.

Quark wrote:
But it says army, not detachment. So then the question: is an army w/ Farsight allies a "Farsight Enclave army"?

Man, but the wording is terrible. If they meant detachment they should have said detachment. If they meant army they should have said "army with a Farsight Enclave detachment."

Speaking of which, both Iyanden and Farsight say one supplement per army, so it looks like no mixing the two.

Well until they do, I am taking it to mean no Shadowsun within the Enclave detachment, not the entire army .

valace2 wrote:

Quark wrote:
But it says army, not detachment. So then the question: is an army w/ Farsight allies a "Farsight Enclave army"?

Man, but the wording is terrible. If they meant detachment they should have said detachment. If they meant army they should have said "army with a Farsight Enclave detachment."

Speaking of which, both Iyanden and Farsight say one supplement per army, so it looks like no mixing the two.

Well until they do, I am taking it to mean no Shadowsun within the Enclave detachment, not the entire army .

The definition is on page 110. Primary detachment, allied detachment and army all mean different things. In fact, your own words above say it as well, army is army, detachment is detachment.

You also lose the right to take tau signature systems armywide.

 davou wrote:

valace2 wrote:

Quark wrote:
But it says army, not detachment. So then the question: is an army w/ Farsight allies a "Farsight Enclave army"?

Man, but the wording is terrible. If they meant detachment they should have said detachment. If they meant army they should have said "army with a Farsight Enclave detachment."

Speaking of which, both Iyanden and Farsight say one supplement per army, so it looks like no mixing the two.

Well until they do, I am taking it to mean no Shadowsun within the Enclave detachment, not the entire army .

The definition is on page 110. Primary detachment, allied detachment and army all mean different things. In fact, your own words above say it as well, army is army, detachment is detachment.

You also lose the right to take tau signature systems armywide.

Ummm, I looked at that page and nowhere does it say anything of the kind. If you have a primary detachment it follows the rules for that detachment, and an allied detachment follows the rules for that detachment. Its a PIA I admit, but each force follows its own rules.

Why would they allow you to field a standard Tau force alongside an Enclave force to begin with if the Enclave rules superceded those found in Codex: Tau Empire. They specifically listed them as Battle Brothers.

It really is a horribly worded mess, because as it stands you can mishmash the two forces together, Shadowsun can still be taken, and the 8 can be taken without Farsight, its a good thing the remembered to include the word unique in their profiles or you could just load up on them.

Ummm, I looked at that page and nowhere does it say anything of the kind. If you have a primary detachment it follows the rules for that detachment, and an allied detachment follows the rules for that detachment. Its a PIA I admit, but each force follows its own rules.

Here is the exact quote out of the book;

In this case, your Warlord can be from either of the primary detachments in your army.

That means that army encapsulates the detachments. One army, multiple detachments within that army

 davou wrote:

Ummm, I looked at that page and nowhere does it say anything of the kind. If you have a primary detachment it follows the rules for that detachment, and an allied detachment follows the rules for that detachment. Its a PIA I admit, but each force follows its own rules.

Here is the exact quote out of the book;

In this case, your Warlord can be from either of the primary detachments in your army.

That means that army encapsulates the detachments. One army, multiple detachments within that army

that quote is referring to multiple primary detachments in a 2000+ pt double FOC game. Not defining a primary and allied detachment.

Honestly, Farsight Enclave as an ally is pretty good for a Shadowsun/Stealth themed army. For less of a surcharge than going with bodyguards (50 for a minimal Ethereal + 1pt per crisis suit vs. 10 points per suit for bodyguards), you get crisis suits in your army, with the unneeded addition of scoring plus you also can now take an extra squad of stealth suits with the extra elite slot, never mind the extra HS & FA slots. Even assuming that you can't take Shadowsun herself, just playing her as a commander with 2 fusion blasters & a target lock is not that bad an option (slightly less good for many less points) and would allow for the combo.

valace2 wrote:

 davou wrote:

Ummm, I looked at that page and nowhere does it say anything of the kind. If you have a primary detachment it follows the rules for that detachment, and an allied detachment follows the rules for that detachment. Its a PIA I admit, but each force follows its own rules.

Here is the exact quote out of the book;

In this case, your Warlord can be from either of the primary detachments in your army.

That means that army encapsulates the detachments. One army, multiple detachments within that army

that quote is referring to multiple primary detachments in a 2000+ pt double FOC game. Not defining a primary and allied detachment.

Indeed so, but it cleary spells out how the word army is used in the context of 40k, is there anywhere else this is defined?

 davou wrote:

valace2 wrote:

 davou wrote:

Ummm, I looked at that page and nowhere does it say anything of the kind. If you have a primary detachment it follows the rules for that detachment, and an allied detachment follows the rules for that detachment. Its a PIA I admit, but each force follows its own rules.

Here is the exact quote out of the book;

In this case, your Warlord can be from either of the primary detachments in your army.

That means that army encapsulates the detachments. One army, multiple detachments within that army

that quote is referring to multiple primary detachments in a 2000+ pt double FOC game. Not defining a primary and allied detachment.

Indeed so, but it cleary spells out how the word army is used in the context of 40k, is there anywhere else this is defined?

the word army is used in many places throughout the book, but I don't think that there is a single instance where it explains it the way you think it does. Only in newer codices are they beginning to explain the interaction between detachments, kind of like how they mention in the new Dark Angels codex that Belial and Azreal make deathwing troops only in a primary detachment. If you look at wolf guard in the space wolf codex, Logan makes them troops regardless of which detachment they are in, the same with Coteaz and Henchmen for Grey Knights.

Since there is no clear cut definition of "army" I am going off of the wording in the supplement that says Codex: Tau Empire forces can be taken as Battle Brothers. Again if the supplement rules supercede the base Codex rules there is no need for an allied force.

Not to interrupt, but just to be clear - there's no book version of this at all, it's purely digital?

 A Kvlt Ghost wrote:
Not to interrupt, but just to be clear - there's no book version of this at all, it's purely digital?

No real book on paper for 3 months...

So I can ally tau with tau and get 5 riptides (one being an IC) and crisis suits as troops? Sounds fair.

Question.

If I want to run my normal battlesuit list with standard codex rules, now that the supplement exists, can I dump my fire warriors and replace them with crisis suits as my troop choice, or is there some special "farsight" group I must bring in to utilize suits as a troop choice. I already use Farsight as my hq.

 Akaraut wrote:

 Marthike wrote:
I want this lol. But I dont really want a ipad version, prefer book, even though i have a ipad.

The ipad version is actually quite nice, tap on a special rule/wargear and you get a little pop-up giving you the stats on what it does ingame, as well as showing all related special rules to it. Bookmarks give you easy access to the pages that matter too.

Then again, it just isn't quite the same as holding that big old lump of dead tree in your hands

What annoys the piss out of me is that GW make a big deal about all these fancy "features" that only the super-awesome I-pish can give you, and as if to reinforce that they put out the most basic, no-effort, error-filled, copy-pasta EPub/Mobi file possible, when the reality is you can do everything that the I-pish version does in an EPub using Flash. What you can't do with an EPub is force people into a bogus EULA that redefines their one-time purchase of a product as a lease of indeterminate length, which can be revoked at any time at the discretion of either Apple or GW.

 Ravenous D wrote:
So I can ally tau with tau and get 5 riptides (one being an IC) and crisis suits as troops? Sounds fair.

Sounds fair to me - here's a list with the absolute minimums to do that

Farsight
O'vesa
Ethereal
Riptide x4, no upgrades
3x10 Kroot

1420

Now you have the points to basically buy some gun upgrades and more troops, then you're done. You may be able to get 5 riptides, but it'll be a pretty poorly balanced/expensive army to do so

anchorbine wrote:
Question.

If I want to run my normal battlesuit list with standard codex rules, now that the supplement exists, can I dump my fire warriors and replace them with crisis suits as my troop choice, or is there some special "farsight" group I must bring in to utilize suits as a troop choice. I already use Farsight as my hq.

You can do this, but you have to drop all of your signature systems and replace them with the ones from the supplement. You don't even have to use Farsight in an Enclave list. There are no restrictions outside of Aun Va and Shadowsun.

pantsonhead wrote:

 Morollan wrote:

I have to disagree. There is nothing in that paragraph that gives you permission to rake the Commander Team other than as a replacement for Farsight's bodyguard.

Can you expand on this? Like I said, maybe you could argue that you have no permission to take a Commander Team at all, but I can't see how to make those words mean that you can only take one if you have Farsight. It doesn't say that the Commander Team replaces the Bodyguard Team option for Farsight - it only says that if your list includes a Commander Team, then Farsight can't take a Bodyguard Team.

"When choosing a Farsight Enclaves army, you have access to a special unit called Farsight’s Commander Team." - This simply tell us that we have access to the unit but not how we have access to it.

"If you choose to take this unit, Commander Farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team as normal; he has the Commander Team instead." - This tells us how we have access to the unit, ie by replacing Farsight's usual bodyguards - note the specific reference to "he". And also the way it says "the" Commander Team, rather than "a", ie the one that you are allowed to take

"This special unit is an HQ choice that does not take up a Force Organisation slot and consists of up to seven other battlesuits chosen from the Eight etc, etc." - This tells us what the unit is. Also note the "other", which implies that it is in addition to Farsight himself, who is of course one of the Eight.

You are arguing that you don't have to take Farsight but we simply do not have permission to use the Commander Team in any other circumstance apart from as a replacement to Farsight's normal bodyguard team. It doesn't say "One Farsight Enclaves HQ choice may take a Commander Team in place of a Crisis Bodyguard" or anything else which tells us when we can take it. There is only one circumstance shown and in a permissive ruleset we need to be told specifically what circumstances the unit can be taken in.

Target wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
So I can ally tau with tau and get 5 riptides (one being an IC) and crisis suits as troops? Sounds fair.

Sounds fair to me - here's a list with the absolute minimums to do that

Farsight
O'vesa
Ethereal
Riptide x4, no upgrades
3x10 Kroot

1420

Now you have the points to basically buy some gun upgrades and more troops, then you're done. You may be able to get 5 riptides, but it'll be a pretty poorly balanced/expensive army to do so

Sounds cool but you need markerlights for this to work, The Riptides shooting can be unreliable.

valace2 wrote:

Target wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
So I can ally tau with tau and get 5 riptides (one being an IC) and crisis suits as troops? Sounds fair.

Sounds fair to me - here's a list with the absolute minimums to do that

Farsight
O'vesa
Ethereal
Riptide x4, no upgrades
3x10 Kroot

1420

Now you have the points to basically buy some gun upgrades and more troops, then you're done. You may be able to get 5 riptides, but it'll be a pretty poorly balanced/expensive army to do so

Sounds cool but you need markerlights for this to work, The Riptides shooting can be unreliable.

My point was more that while you CAN do this, it's not really that great. People are getting a little too "ERMAGERD 5 RIPTIDES LUL BROKEN" on certain aspects of this supplement, which just aren't going to play out that well once you build a list

@Target - you also need at least 1 unit of 3 Crisis suits as that is a requirement.

muwhe wrote:
@Target - you also need at least 1 unit of 3 Crisis suits as that is a requirement.

Good point - even less points available to bulk things out then!

Target wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:
So I can ally tau with tau and get 5 riptides (one being an IC) and crisis suits as troops? Sounds fair.

Sounds fair to me - here's a list with the absolute minimums to do that

Farsight
O'vesa
Ethereal
Riptide x4, no upgrades
3x10 Kroot

1420

Now you have the points to basically buy some gun upgrades and more troops, then you're done. You may be able to get 5 riptides, but it'll be a pretty poorly balanced/expensive army to do so

Close

Farsight
O'vesa
Etheral
4xRiptides w/Ion Accelerator
2x10 Kroot
3 Crisis Suits w/2 Fusion Blasters

That's reasonable for the base required models and it's 1539. So you have just over 300pts to spend until you hit the 1850 standard.

***Edit*** Drat, Muhwe beat me to it

 Morollan wrote:

"When choosing a Farsight Enclaves army, you have access to a special unit called Farsight’s Commander Team." - This simply tell us that we have access to the unit but not how we have access to it.

"If you choose to take this unit, Commander Farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team as normal; he has the Commander Team instead." - This tells us how we have access to the unit, ie by replacing Farsight's usual bodyguards - note the specific reference to "he". And also the way it says "the" Commander Team, rather than "a", ie the one that you are allowed to take

"This special unit is an HQ choice that does not take up a Force Organisation slot and consists of up to seven other battlesuits chosen from the Eight etc, etc." - This tells us what the unit is. Also note the "other", which implies that it is in addition to Farsight himself, who is of course one of the Eight.

You are arguing that you don't have to take Farsight but we simply do not have permission to use the Commander Team in any other circumstance apart from as a replacement to Farsight's normal bodyguard team. It doesn't say "One Farsight Enclaves HQ choice may take a Commander Team in place of a Crisis Bodyguard" or anything else which tells us when we can take it. There is only one circumstance shown and in a permissive ruleset we need to be told specifically what circumstances the unit can be taken in.

But it's not saying that the Commander Team replaces the Crisis Bodyguard Team. "He has the Commander Team instead" is not equivalent to "Farsight's Commander Team can be taken in place of a Crisis Bodyguard Team for Commander Farsight". Note that it's even attached by a semicolon to a rule that seems to go the other way - you can choose to take the FCT, and then, if you do, Commander Farsight has fewer options. That other clause is explaining why Commander Farsight has fewer options - you're supposed to be using the Commander Team in something like the way you'd usually use the Bodyguard Team. There's absolutely no permission here to take the FCT with Farsight, specifically, so if there's no permission to take the FCT without Farsight then there's simply no permission to take the unit.

"Other" means "besides Farsight". They were just talking about Farsight, and The Eight includes Farsight but they don't want people including Farsight in this slot-less choice.

Basically, they've mixed rules and fluff (The Eight) and rules and justification ("he has the Commander Team instead") in ways that are pretty confusing, although this isn't surprising given the other confusion about what an "army" is and similar. It's sloppy, but I'm not seeing how you can justify limiting the FCT to armies that include Farsight.

By the way, what is the fluff reason for battlesuits being troops, or is this literally taken from that one point in the original codex?

The qualifier for when you can use the eight is if you choose a Farsight enclave army. Sheesh.

“When choosing a Farsight Enclaves army, you have access to a special unit called Farsight’s Commander Team.”

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Farsight Enclaves – A Codex: Tau Empire Supplement.” v1.1. Games Workshop, 2013.

Just be sure everyone is swamping the GW FAQ email with these questions. I sent them in myself already as we'll.

Yeah,

 NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

 A Kvlt Ghost wrote:
Not to interrupt, but just to be clear - there's no book version of this at all, it's purely digital?

No real book on paper for 3 months...

do you think this is the start of something great?
Maybe they release everything digital, live playtest, then release a more perfect paper copy.

Panic.

 gossipmeng wrote:


Having a look at what we trade for crisis troops it is actually appearing more like a fun novelty army than anything competitive :(

"Ultimately an army with 2 wounds each has got plenty going for it."

pantsonhead wrote:
But it's not saying that the Commander Team replaces the Crisis Bodyguard Team. "He has the Commander Team instead" is not equivalent to "Farsight's Commander Team can be taken in place of a Crisis Bodyguard Team for Commander Farsight".

This is where we will have to agree to disagree then because, to me, that very clearly is saying that the Commander Team replaces the Crisis Bodyguard team. In fact, I'm really not sure how you can read "Commander Farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team as normal; he has the Commander Team instead" as anything other than that!

I guess we'll have to wait for the FAQ.

 Morollan wrote:

pantsonhead wrote:
But it's not saying that the Commander Team replaces the Crisis Bodyguard Team. "He has the Commander Team instead" is not equivalent to "Farsight's Commander Team can be taken in place of a Crisis Bodyguard Team for Commander Farsight".

This is where we will have to agree to disagree then because, to me, that very clearly is saying that the Commander Team replaces the Crisis Bodyguard team. In fact, I'm really not sure how you can read "Commander Farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team as normal; he has the Commander Team instead" as anything other than that!

I guess we'll have to wait for the FAQ.

You can choose to have the regular 7 man bodyguard team or use the unit called "Farsight's command team".

Supplement says "When choosing an Enclave army, you have access to a special unit called the "Farsight's command team" if you choose to take this unit, commander farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis team as normal".

its a choice, do you want the regular 1-7 bodyguard team or do you want to use "The Eight"

Just found a discussion on Mike Brandt (NOVA Head Honcho)'s blog, which seems to be leaning towards my interpretation.

http://whiskey40k.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/farsight-enclaves-getting-rules-corect.html?showComment=1374294360567

 Morollan wrote:
Just found a discussion on Mike Brandt (NOVA Head Honcho)'s blog, which seems to be leaning towards my interpretation.

http://whiskey40k.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/farsight-enclaves-getting-rules-corect.html?showComment=1374294360567

one more time

Supplement says "When choosing an Enclave army, you have access to a special unit called the "Farsight's command team "if you choose to take this unit" ,commander farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis team as normal".

So once agian, you either get to use the Eight OR you get the regular command squad.

 Panic wrote:
Yeah,

 NeedleOfInquiry wrote:

 A Kvlt Ghost wrote:
Not to interrupt, but just to be clear - there's no book version of this at all, it's purely digital?

No real book on paper for 3 months...

do you think this is the start of something great?
Maybe they release everything digital, live playtest, then release a more perfect paper copy.

Panic.

Brilliant.

 Ninjacommando wrote:

 Morollan wrote:
Just found a discussion on Mike Brandt (NOVA Head Honcho)'s blog, which seems to be leaning towards my interpretation.

http://whiskey40k.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/farsight-enclaves-getting-rules-corect.html?showComment=1374294360567

one more time

Supplement says "When choosing an Enclave army, you have access to a special unit called the "Farsight's command team "if you choose to take this unit" ,commander farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis team as normal".

So once agian, you either get to use the Eight OR you get the regular command squad.

I agree. As long as you take Farsight. Which is what I've been saying all along.

I find it interesting no one has mentioned Ward wrote both supplements

 Dozer Blades wrote:
I find it interesting no one has mentioned Ward wrote both supplements

Well, it explains the confusion and hatred people are spewing forth.

On a different note, does anyone think GW is going to start expanding stories that they have never explained more or advancing their timelines? I know that a lot of people liked having their own version of why Farsight turned, but I like having the established fluff myself as well.

Noc

Ward wrote this supplement? Got to say that he did a pretty good job with the fluff. Well maybe except for the part where farsight does his whole zen meditation/trance thing; that was a little silly. Other than that it's a great read for anyone interested in Farsight.

Rules wise, well i'm bias, i've been waiting for crisis suit troops for ages so i'm happy. Having to take a full crisis team isn't an issue, and in my currrent 1500 farsight list having to pay for the bonding knife ritual on those who can only adds 19 points to my army.
Having their own signature systems in place of the codex ones, while bad for some builds, has its own merits and makes sense from a fluff perspective.

Having said that there some oddities in the rules (typos and errors are another topic entirely). You can take ethereals in his army! It only restricts Aun'va, which contradicts the fluff with that there are no ethereals in the farsight enclaves.
Then there are the warlords traits, which are a little hit and miss. WS5 commander? Well, nice if he has fusion blades, but that's about it.
Picking one of the neurochip special rules for the rest of the game is imo the best one out of the lot.
One use only -1 mod to enemy reserves, meh.
Fearless warlord, with all tau within 6" stubborn, i can see use for fearless but there are better traits.
+1 reserve rolls for crisis suits is just too situational to rely on the random warlord roll.
Lasty there's the one use only shred rule for one shooting phase for the warlord and his unit, useful, stick him in with some missile broadsides and watch the pain.

Then there's the vague working in the Commander team rules, i think we've all seen the ongoing 'how it works' talks.

"If you choose to take this unit" comes BEFORE anything else, with the exception of "Have access to" (which, in itself, implies choice as well).

I think it's really blatantly obvious that you get the choice before any future restrictions come into play. Otherwise they'd list the restrictions FIRST before saying things like "have access to" and "if you choose to take this unit". Honestly, if someone says to a Farsight Enclave player, "You can't take Farsight without the special commander team!", all he really has to do is say "I choose not to take the special commander team". Any analysis of the words show that the rules woudl agree with the Farsight player's choice, because it specifically says right off the bat that it's a choice.

Was that really one of the main points of contention, though? It's obvious that you have the choice to use the special command team or not. What seems "unclear" is whether or not Farsight is required in order to gain access to said command team.

And really, I think we all know how it's supposed to work, so there's really no point in going on with the debate on that one. GW will have to FAQ it, but until then I wouldn't go crazy and start buying lots of models for a Farsight army and then find out it doesn't work the way you expected.

since the only way to get the 7 suit bodyguard in the Tau Codex is to take Farsight, it seems obvious to me that one should have to take Farsight to get the 7 suit character team in the Enclave...
otherwise, you've just broken the Tau Codex, and get the extra guys without having to pay the Farsight tax...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
since the only way to get the 7 suit bodyguard in the Tau Codex is to take Farsight, it seems obvious to me that one should have to take Farsight to get the 7 suit character team in the Enclave...
otherwise, you've just broken the Tau Codex, and get the extra guys without having to pay the Farsight tax...

cheers
jah

This is a potential argument, and a good one. For all we know, an FAQ will allow a standard commander to choose three of the seven.

I would have to say after reading it that yeah the new "Farsight’s Commander Team" rule works with any Commander HQ choice since it says they must be chosen from up to seven 'Other' suits. Meaning of course that there must be one (suit, not a member of the 8) in the first place. I read nothing that states you have to pick Farsight, only that if you do, he does NOT have the option for anything but the commanders team. A regular Commander could do the FCT or a normal 2-man crisis suit bodyguard team. All in all though, yeah not a bad little update. It could have been worse that's for sure.

 guinness707 wrote:
I would have to say after reading it that yeah the new "Farsight’s Commander Team" rule works with any Commander HQ choice since it says they must be chosen from up to seven 'Other' suits. Meaning of course that there must be one (suit, not a member of the 8) in the first place. I read nothing that states you have to pick Farsight, only that if you do, he does NOT have the option for anything but the commanders team. A regular Commander could do the FCT or a normal 2-man crisis suit bodyguard team. All in all though, yeah not a bad little update. It could have been worse that's for sure.

I find this interpretation even weirder than the one that says you have to take Farsight to take the Commander Team. There's absolutely nothing in there about the Commander Team replacing the Bodyguard Team for regular Commanders. You can take the Commander Team and an Ethereal (you need an HQ choice that uses a slot), and you can take the Commander Team and a Commander with a Bodyguard Team. What you can't do is take the Commander Team and Farsight with a Bodyguard Team (though you could have all three units in the same list if the Bodyguard Team is attached to a regular Commander). That's the only combination which is ruled out.

The entry is really quite clear that the unit consists of only selections from the seven non-Farsight suits. It doesn't include a first suit - it "consists of up to seven other suits" and nothing else. "Other" is preventing you from including Farsight in the slot-less choice, and can't be read to be talking about any model besides Farsight.

The internets are afire tonite, it seems.

I'm just happy I could field a Crisis Suit allied contingent to support my deathwing.

 Morollan wrote:
Just found a discussion on Mike Brandt (NOVA Head Honcho)'s blog, which seems to be leaning towards my interpretation.

http://whiskey40k.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/farsight-enclaves-getting-rules-corect.html?showComment=1374294360567

Not talking about you, but about that blog entry:

Even though you like the conclusion here, surely it's apparent that this person has a terrible grasp of English. "Other" means "non-Farsight" and in no way implies that the unit must include Farsight (??? the entry is very clear that the unit does not include Farsight) or that Farsight must be in your list. This is not an uncommon word or construction. I show you eight toys. I say "This one is my favorite. You can choose up to seven other toys to play with." I'm very clearly giving you permission to play with any toy /except/ my favorite. I'm probably telling you that you /can't/ play with my favorite.

pantsonhead wrote:

 Morollan wrote:
Just found a discussion on Mike Brandt (NOVA Head Honcho)'s blog, which seems to be leaning towards my interpretation.

http://whiskey40k.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/farsight-enclaves-getting-rules-corect.html?showComment=1374294360567

Not talking about you, but about that blog entry:

Even though you like the conclusion here, surely it's apparent that this person has a terrible grasp of English. "Other" means "non-Farsight" and in no way implies that the unit must include Farsight (??? the entry is very clear that the unit does not include Farsight) or that Farsight must be in your list. This is not an uncommon word or construction. I show you eight toys. I say "This one is my favorite. You can choose up to seven other toys to play with." I'm very clearly giving you permission to play with any toy /except/ my favorite. I'm probably telling you that you /can't/ play with my favorite.

Sorry but the only way that paragraph reads the way you think it reads is if you ignore certain words. The only logical way to read that entry is that Farsight is required. You simply do not have permission to take the Commander Team without him. And bearing it mind that it looks as though the largest 40K tournament is likely to be using that ruling it probably makes sense to go with it rather than trying to bend the rules to suit your interpretation and have this argument with every opponent you face.

Nocturus wrote:
Just be sure everyone is swamping the GW FAQ email with these questions. I sent them in myself already as we'll.

I wish such action was worthwhile, but remember all those questions we had about Codex: Tau Empire?

They haven't updated their FAQ since the day the Codex was released.

 Morollan wrote:

Sorry but the only way that paragraph reads the way you think it reads is if you ignore certain words. The only logical way to read that entry is that Farsight is required. You simply do not have permission to take the Commander Team without him. And bearing it mind that it looks as though the largest 40K tournament is likely to be using that ruling it probably makes sense to go with it rather than trying to bend the rules to suit your interpretation and have this argument with every opponent you face.

I think it's pretty plausible that GW intended it to require Farsight. I'm not at all opposed to a tournament ruling it that way, if they think very easy access to a fourth (IC) Riptide is a bit much. But that's hardly relevant to determining what the thing they've actually written means, which seems to be either that you can take the Commander Team without Farsight or that you can never take the Commander Team (depending on whether or not you think you're given general permission to take it - I lean towards yes). I'm left unsure after your post whether or not you'd actually defend the blog's butchering of the word "other". And obviously it's just incredibly confused when it's talking as if Farsight is part of Farsight's Commander Team. Regular Commanders aren't even part of their Bodyguard Teams.

Again, it's not making the argument you're making - that there's no permission to take the unit unless you read "he has the Commander Team instead" as permission to take the unit when you have Farsight. The blog outright disagrees with you - it seems to read the first line as permission to take the unit. It takes the second line to mean that Farsight can't take a Bodyguard Team at all in a Farsight Enclaves army, which is a pretty embarrassing error of comprehension given that that sentence starts out "If you choose to take Farsight's Commander Team..." Then it reads the third line as the one that requires you to have Farsight when you take Farsight's Commander Team, on the grounds that apparently in 40k you can't make heads or tails of the word "other" unless the thing being distinguished from is also in your list, even though it was specified in the previous sentence in the rule. So fix the things that the blog is indefensibly wrong about and it seems to be coming down on my side. Edit: Oh, and they take the fact that Farsight's name appears next to the seven other names to mean that he's part of Farsight's Commander Team. I guess they're ruling that Farsight doesn't take up a force org slot?

 Archonate wrote:

Nocturus wrote:
Just be sure everyone is swamping the GW FAQ email with these questions. I sent them in myself already as we'll.

I wish such action was worthwhile, but remember all those questions we had about Codex: Tau Empire?

They haven't updated their FAQ since the day the Codex was released.

Be that as it may, if you don't send in the questions you have (and I've sent in everyone I've had), then it's silly if you sit around and complain as you've done nothing to better your situation. Kinda like people on welfare who gripe that their neighbor who works 60 hours a week has nicer stuff than them while they do drugs, and don't look for a job.

 davou wrote:

valace2 wrote:

 davou wrote:

Ummm, I looked at that page and nowhere does it say anything of the kind. If you have a primary detachment it follows the rules for that detachment, and an allied detachment follows the rules for that detachment. Its a PIA I admit, but each force follows its own rules.

Here is the exact quote out of the book;

In this case, your Warlord can be from either of the primary detachments in your army.

That means that army encapsulates the detachments. One army, multiple detachments within that army

that quote is referring to multiple primary detachments in a 2000+ pt double FOC game. Not defining a primary and allied detachment.

Indeed so, but it cleary spells out how the word army is used in the context of 40k, is there anywhere else this is defined?

Problem is, GW has a pretty terrible track record of RAW and RAI not matching up, especially when indirectly connecting a=b, b=c, therefore a=c, with their rules. In some systems where the authors have very tight language, I'd agree that that was evidence, but I'd say that that indirect connection doesn't necessarily mean anything, coming from GW.

pantsonhead wrote:

 Morollan wrote:

Sorry but the only way that paragraph reads the way you think it reads is if you ignore certain words. The only logical way to read that entry is that Farsight is required. You simply do not have permission to take the Commander Team without him. And bearing it mind that it looks as though the largest 40K tournament is likely to be using that ruling it probably makes sense to go with it rather than trying to bend the rules to suit your interpretation and have this argument with every opponent you face.

I think it's pretty plausible that GW intended it to require Farsight. I'm not at all opposed to a tournament ruling it that way, if they think very easy access to a fourth (IC) Riptide is a bit much. But that's hardly relevant to determining what the thing they've actually written means, which seems to be either that you can take the Commander Team without Farsight or that you can never take the Commander Team (depending on whether or not you think you're given general permission to take it - I lean towards yes). I'm left unsure after your post whether or not you'd actually defend the blog's butchering of the word "other". And obviously it's just incredibly confused when it's talking as if Farsight is part of Farsight's Commander Team. Regular Commanders aren't even part of their Bodyguard Teams.

Again, it's not making the argument you're making - that there's no permission to take the unit unless you read "he has the Commander Team instead" as permission to take the unit when you have Farsight. The blog outright disagrees with you - it seems to read the first line as permission to take the unit. It takes the second line to mean that Farsight can't take a Bodyguard Team at all in a Farsight Enclaves army, which is a pretty embarrassing error of comprehension given that that sentence starts out "If you choose to take Farsight's Commander Team..." Then it reads the third line as the one that requires you to have Farsight when you take Farsight's Commander Team, on the grounds that apparently in 40k you can't make heads or tails of the word "other" unless the thing being distinguished from is also in your list, even though it was specified in the previous sentence in the rule. So fix the things that the blog is indefensibly wrong about and it seems to be coming down on my side. Edit: Oh, and they take the fact that Farsight's name appears next to the seven other names to mean that he's part of Farsight's Commander Team. I guess they're ruling that Farsight doesn't take up a force org slot?

The only part of Mike's post on that blog that I disagree with is that Farsight is part of the Commander Team. The rest of his points are all fine and in fact if you remove that assumption you arrive precisely at my view of the rule, ie that you must take Farsight if you want to take the Commander Team and that it replaces his normal bodyguard. But with your interpretation you need to remove words to get it to fit. I've removed the superfluous words from the rules (shown in red) to get to your interpretation.

When choosing a Farsight Enclaves Army, you have access to a special unit called Farsight's Commander Team. If you choose to take this unit, Commander Farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team as normal; he has the Commander Team instead. This special unit is an HQ choice that does not take up a Force Organisation Slot and consists of up to seven other battlesuits chosen from the Eight listed below.

Anyway, I think I'm done with this. it's going to need a FAQ and in the meantime I will be erring on the side of caution and not trying to field the Commander Team without Farsight.

seems to me, if you take farisght, it unlocks a special command team, if you choose to use that team, no normal bodygaurd team. no idea on if those IC can then be selected as warlord...although i think if farsight is in the army he is auto warlord.

thats based on what ive read from excerpts here. ill be more informed once i get the ipad version.downloaded

 Akaraut wrote:
Ward wrote this supplement? Got to say that he did a pretty good job with the fluff. Well maybe except for the part where farsight does his whole zen meditation/trance thing; that was a little silly. Other than that it's a great read for anyone interested in Farsight.

Pretty good job? you jest?
The "rule" section is HORRID

The "7" are a mix-and-match of wargear for regular units with no focus, logic, or anything unique about them. it would cost the same to build them yourself, but then you will probably wise up and build an actual sane guy, and not the mess they are. (the only one worth mentioning is o'vesa, and only in order to double up your earth caste pilot array and get 4th riptide.)

The traits are horrid, to the point 2 of them got a strictly better version in the BRB (the two reserve related), 1 is outright worhtless (WS5), and another provides a one-shot reroll for a single unit, for the one type of roll tau are good at (shred, reroll wounds, on high S guns....), commonly such abilities are an aura, and reroll something your army is bad at (codex got a reroll to hit, much better. and it effects everyone within 12", not just the warlord's own unit)
The stubborn one is the only that has no direct comparison, but you can get an ethereal to do pretty much the same thing.
The fake PEN is the only one in the whole list worth anything, and even that could have been acquired by main codex, in a reliable fashion, stronger version, and still get another warlord trait, for mere 15 points.

The wargear bounces from one that is questionably too good, to a bunch of others that costs WAY too much, unreliable at best and one might even backfire.
Mirrorcodex? +1 to steal initiative means that will influence 1/12 games. the PE part will, on average, buy you 1 random turn of PE. 50 points? HELL NO.
SFN? 1/6 chance not to work, when it does work 1/3 change to bite you in the ass. 45 points for these odds? no thanks.
Drone? sure, its nice. but its a 35 point upgrade connected to a drone's shaky life. pass.
Fusion blades? a powerful melee weapon, that costs more then an actual assault model, in a codex that avoids CC. I would not take it for half the price.
Talisman? the anti-psyker parts only help when they target you, and best psykers target themselves. the invul is weak. too expensive.
ECPA is the only good one, and considering it covers the riptides biggest flaws, its strong despite the high cost.

And the rules, don't get me even started on how poorly written they are.
We still cant figure out if you need farsight or not for the command team.
Not a clue if riptides take special-issue wargear at the cost of a slot or not (because some units are one way, and some units the other)
Confusion about what happens with SI wargear when you ally regular tau with farsight.

Its a sloppy writing job, and I could have written it clearer with an hour worth of work, and made far better job with the commanders, traits and wargear with one more hour.
Two hours work would have been enough for an amateur like me to write a better set of rules, without all the confusion, and I would have done it for free if GWS asked me.
Instead they pay god know what, for a very, VERY poor work, that resembles more preschool quality then professional work.

The fluff is good, I'd give that. but the rules section is the worst ever written that I have seen in a published work, in any game.
The only reason to use it, is to cherry pick a few good things, pay the tiny tax in bonding knifes, and pretend the rest never happened.

 Morollan wrote:

The only part of Mike's post on that blog that I disagree with is that Farsight is part of the Commander Team. The rest of his points are all fine and in fact if you remove that assumption you arrive precisely at my view of the rule, ie that you must take Farsight if you want to take the Commander Team and that it replaces his normal bodyguard. But with your interpretation you need to remove words to get it to fit. I've removed the superfluous words from the rules (shown in red) to get to your interpretation.

When choosing a Farsight Enclaves Army, you have access to a special unit called Farsight's Commander Team. If you choose to take this unit, Commander Farsight does not allow you to take an XV8 Crisis Bodyguard Team as normal; he has the Commander Team instead. This special unit is an HQ choice that does not take up a Force Organisation Slot and consists of up to seven other battlesuits chosen from the Eight listed below.

Anyway, I think I'm done with this. it's going to need a FAQ and in the meantime I will be erring on the side of caution and not trying to field the Commander Team without Farsight.

I don't expect a reply, but I think you're being pretty unfair here. I don't need those words to disappear. "As normal..." is pretty naturally read as a clarification which is just reinforcing that, absent this rule, Farsight would be able to take a Crisis Bodyguard Team when you've already chosen to take a Commander Team. My reading absolutely requires the word "other", so I have no idea where you're coming from on that one. Without the word "other", Farsight could be one of the seven battlesuits in the Commander Team.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The fluff is good, I'd give that. but the rules section is the worst ever written that I have seen in a published work, in any game.
The only reason to use it, is to cherry pick a few good things, pay the tiny tax in bonding knifes, and pretend the rest never happened.

So, do you think "suits as troops" is a good enough reason to use it? Because that's about the only thing I find at all interesting from any of this. I also wouldn't mind reading more about Farsight since I like the character, but that's not worth buying the book for alone.

I will use it over the Tau codex for this reason alone:

Farsight Enclave

-Take IC Riptide
-x2 Riptides
-x1 Riptide with Earth Caste Pilot (or all not to sure on that)

Add Tau Allies

-Shadowsun
-x1 Riptide

I now have an army with 5 Riptides

 Rainbow Dash wrote:

Mr.Church13 wrote:
Do people just "Forget" that theese things are packed with great fluff and battle missions.

I'm guessing at this point GW should just remove all the stories, close Black Library, switch to a tournament only you can't play friendly games that aren't tournaments format, and release only $20 rules packets in 3 ring binders so that changing the rules everytime a tournament player whines is super easy.

As a fluffy/theme player these books are awesome and not just about the rules.

back in the day they didn't haven fluff and stuff, keeping the books smaller and thus cheaper.
You read books if you wanted fluff...
less then, about 20 pages in a codex is actually useful
back in the day that's usually around how many they had, not 100
I don't need all that extra crap and a 60 dollar price tag, there's rulebooks for other miniature games that cost less then that

I'm pretty sure that the old codices and rulebooks had a lot of fluff in them. Otherwise I should get my eyes re-checked. You may not need the fluff, but for many gamers they enjoy the fluff. It gives context to battles, and makes the premise a bit less ridiculous.

 gmaleron wrote:
I will use it over the Tau codex for this reason alone:

Farsight Enclave

-Take IC Riptide
-x2 Riptides
-x1 Riptide with Earth Caste Pilot (or all not to sure on that)

Add Tau Allies

-Shadowsun
-x1 Riptide

I now have an army with 5 Riptides

I tried that but in 1750 points you might not be able to do that, unless you do barebone riptides with nothing, at 2000 i think this can be done.