There will be no paper version in July. And ATM I am not sure, if the supplement is in any way as big as the Iyanden one.

Re: my supposed "inconsistency" with FW vs. supplements:

1) I'm not arguing that the supplements should be banned. If they say "for normal games" (IOW, not limited to the special supplement missions) then you can take them and should be allowed to use them in tournaments. Just like with FW books the difficulty/cost of getting access to the rules doesn't justify telling people they aren't welcome at events unless they change their perfectly legal army.

2) FW books are a lot more reasonable as a product. Yes they're expensive, but you get a lot of content for that price. For example, for $45 (including shipping) IA:Aeronautica (a pure rules book) compiles 47 units across pretty much every army. For $90 IA3 gives you all of the Tau units and the complete Elysian drop troops list, in addition to 200+ pages of fluff, campaign missions, color schemes, etc. For $50 the Iyanden supplement gives you two pages of rules and 70 pages of fluff. See the difference?

So, my point is not that getting access to the Iyanden rules is impossible, or that they need to be banned. My point is that I hate GW for removing stuff from the codex to release it as day-one DLC and effectively doubling the price of the Eldar codex for much less than double the content. Whether or not you personally need/want the book there are people who want to have a copy of all of the rules for 40k, and GW's new day-one DLC plan is a significant increase in the cost of doing so.

(Of course let's be honest here: many of them will just pirate the book, but it's not exactly hard to imagine day-one DLC pushing more people to say " this" and just pirate everything.)

 agnosto wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
GW gets into the day 1 DLC game.

They learned a new trick from the people that made the warhammer quest app; $5 for 1/2 a game and then the privilege to spend more money on the stuff that was released at the same time as then app.

Oh bs. There was no trick there, and there was certainly no "1/2 a game." What you paid $6.99 was MORE than a full game with plenty of variety of characters. Get over it.

Retract your claws good madam. Complete game says you; however, it was released with DLC thus the term "day 1 DLC" which as any sane person will tell you is naught but a money grab.

On Topic.
Though I like the idea of these supplements, the pricing and single-source availability are off-putting.

A game is not distributed the moment it's gone gold. There is a lot of time between when the game goes gold and when it reaches shelves. There is also time near the end of the dev cycle when the developers can't just add new content. At that time, code writers and asset creators aren't twiddling their thumbs, they're making DLC content and/or fixing bugs that will be available as soon as possible. Day 1 DLC is not necessarily content withheld with the intent of making the customer pay more; it depends on the attitudes of the developer and publisher.

 undertow wrote:

 Harriticus wrote:
GW gets into the day 1 DLC game.

Except in this case by 'Day 1' you mean 'Day 60' (or so).

I believe Day 1 was a reference to the Iyanden book, which was advertised in WD in the Eldar release issue, as opposed to this Farsight "book".

I'm actually kinda excited about the book, mostly because I'm interested in reading all the fluff. the Farsight faction fluff has always been kinda scarce, restricted to one or two pages of total content in the codex, and I'm really kinda keen to get the whole story behind them.


Another thing... I'm actually kinda excited about the idea of being able to play a Farsight Enclave force, with fluffy and yes admittedly quite minimal (two pages *grumble*) rules to support that, and also without having to take Farsight as my warlord.

Does anyone have the date this is supposed to be released?

There is one thing that kinda bugs me about this whole thing. Do we actually know if the supplement will only contains two pages of rules? I doubt it would be less but it could always be more.

Mr.Church13 wrote:
There is one thing that kinda bugs me about this whole thing. Do we actually know if the supplement will only contains two pages of rules? I doubt it would be less but it could always be more.

Keep an open and optimistic mindset. It may even have 50% more pages of rules than the Iyanden one at no additional cost. Who luvs ya, baby! GW does!

 warboss wrote:
Who luvs ya, baby! GW does!

Well, in the same way that a physically abusive partner does.

 Peregrine wrote:


2) FW books are a lot more reasonable as a product. Yes they're expensive, but you get a lot of content for that price. For example, for $45 (including shipping) IA:Aeronautica (a pure rules book) compiles 47 units across pretty much every army. For $90 IA3 gives you all of the Tau units and the complete Elysian drop troops list, in addition to 200+ pages of fluff, campaign missions, color schemes, etc. For $50 the Iyanden supplement gives you two pages of rules and 70 pages of fluff. See the difference?

That is simply not true.

a) Forge World has in its entire history not produced a book even remotely as fun to read as the Iyanden Codex.

b) There are no missing rules in the Eldar Codex. It's written to the exact format of all other 6th Edition Codexes and allows you, among other things, to play an Iyanden Army without trouble.

c) The rules in the Iyanden book would be largely counterproductive in the main Eldar Codex. Quite the opposite. Things like, say, Warlord Traits or Primaris Psyker powers that work on Wraithguards only would've sparked major nerd-rage among people who, say, want to play a Saim-Hann Jetbike army only to have their Warlord end up with a Wraithguard-buffing power.

d) The Iyanden Book gives plenty of missions and a few alternative colour-schemes. And it does NOT give you an alternative list, and does NOT give you rules for new units, so you don't NEED to buy it like you'd need to buy IA3 for an Elysian Drop Troop list or to use a particular Tau Vehicle that isn't in the GW main Codex. I thought that was the point? That is why Iyanden is optional.

 Zweischneid wrote:
a) Forge World has in its entire history not produced a book even remotely as fun to read as the Iyanden Codex.

That's personal preference. IMO the Iyanden book was nothing special.

b) There are no missing rules in the Eldar Codex. It's written to the exact format of all other 6th Edition Codexes and allows you, among other things, to play an Iyanden Army without trouble.

Of course there are missing rules. The Iyanden rules should have been in the codex, just like C:SM didn't have only Ultramarines rules with supplements for the other chapters.

c) The rules in the Iyanden book would be largely counterproductive in the main Eldar Codex. Quite the opposite. Things like, say, Warlord Traits or Primaris Psyker powers that work on Wraithguards only would've sparked major nerd-rage among people who, say, want to play a Saim-Hann Jetbike army only to have their Warlord end up with a Wraithguard-buffing power.

Only if GW is completely incompetent. It would be trivially easy to make multiple warlord trait tables that you could roll on, a third set of psychic powers, etc.

d) The Iyanden Book gives plenty of missions and a few alternative colour-schemes. And it does NOT give you an alternative list, and does NOT give you rules for new units, so you don't NEED to buy it like you'd need to buy IA3 for an Elysian Drop Troop list or to use a particular Tau Vehicle that isn't in the GW main Codex. I thought that was the point? That is why Iyanden is optional.

Wait, so let me get this straight: the Iyanden book has much less content than IA3 for over half the price and you think this is a good thing?

 Peregrine wrote:


Wait, so let me get this straight: the Iyanden book has much less content than IA3 for over half the price and you think this is a good thing?

It's not an argument about good or bad. The Iyanden books is - in my personal opinion as you say - one of the best books for WH40K in a long, long, very long time. But that might just be me.

Yet your (!) argument was that - starting from an IMO somewhat deluded assumption that there is a necessity to own all rules, even those you don't play personally - there is an implicit pressure on GW's behalf to buy this book.

If that is true, than the pressure to buy the IA3 book, which (unlike Iyanden) actually does include rules necessary to play units which you cannot play straight from the Tau Codex / Imperial Guard Codex, is infinitely greater. If you argue that Iyanden rules could've easily been integrated into the Eldar Codex, than the IA3 rules could've just as easily been integrated into the Tau / Imperial Guard Codex.

Finally, IA books are significantly more expensive than the Iyanden book, so (assuming a need-to-buy-obligation) the financial burden imposed by IA books is significantly greater. This, you keep justifying with the fact that the IA books simply offer quantitatively more rules, even though it is widely acknowledged that in smooth game design, less is usually more as far as rules go.

The fact that Forge World actually needed to write an entire new army list to make Elysians work, rather than using - occam's razor - the standard Imperial Guard list, perhaps with an alternative HQ or a variant Warlord Trait list, is testimony to the vastly inferiour game-developing skills among the Forge World team compared to the GW-studio and the brilliant minimalist approach seen, not least, in the Iyanden book.

 Peregrine wrote:


Of course there are missing rules. The Iyanden rules should have been in the codex, just like C:SM didn't have only Ultramarines rules with supplements for the other chapters.

So there are missing rules from the Dark Angels, Daemons, Tau and CSM codices then are there?

 Zweischneid wrote:
People really need to stop obsessing over the rules. The rules are the least important part of the Iyanden supplement and, as pointed out frequently, not the reason to buy it.

Buy it for the background and history and the historical missions that allow you to re-create the Iyanden background on the table. And to make these missions work, they've also added a few rules... big deal.

It's really more a Crusade of Fire-style book, but build around an actual faction (and their history in the 40K universe) instead of some pointless conflict made up only for Crusade of Fire, which noone ever heard about before.


I really don't see how this is a problem. If you are genuinely interesting in Iyanden (or Farsight); you want that background, whether it has rules or not (for Iyanden at least, as the fluff is pure brilliance, we'll see how it'll go for Farsight). If you aren't interested in Iyanden, there'd be no reason to buy this book, even if it came with several hundred pages of rules, no?

Not to mention that, for games in general, rules should always be less, not more, if humanly possible. A game (gaming supplement) with 20 pages of rules is usually superior to a game (gaming supplement) with 50 pages of rules.

I agree, but in the cases of players who have been around for decades, what does the Iyanden book really add as new Fluff?

Of course there is the 6th retcon of some of the things, and maybe addition to one or two characters fluff and such, but does it provides enough new material for someone who knows the Eldar fluff since Rogue trader or 3Ed?

I mean if they do a World Eaters or Traitor Legions or whatnot supplement, i hardly think that any of the new fluff, will make me buy it, but then again i bought the RoC books for 50$, but their is the collectible and OOP aspect and value of thoses.

So in the end, does the new bits of fluff really appeal and justify that the rules arn't the most important thing in the book?

 Zweischneid wrote:
Yet your (!) argument was that - starting from an IMO somewhat deluded assumption that there is a necessity to own all rules, even those you don't play personally - there is an implicit pressure on GW's behalf to buy this book.

And I clearly said that the extra cost is a problem IF you want to have access to all of the rules for 40k. If you're one of the people who don't care about that congratulations, this doesn't apply to you. But the fact that you don't feel the need to own everything doesn't mean that everyone else shares your opinion.

If you argue that Iyanden rules could've easily been integrated into the Eldar Codex, than the IA3 rules could've just as easily been integrated into the Tau / Imperial Guard Codex.

Except that:

1) The IG codex was printed long before supplements existed or the Elysian list was updated for 6th edition. Putting those rules in the IG codex would have been impossible.

2) There's established precedent that FW kind of does their own thing. Continuing to have rules for FW models published in separate books is entirely different from day-one DLC like the supplements.

Finally, IA books are significantly more expensive than the Iyanden book, so (assuming a need-to-buy-obligation) the financial burden imposed by IA books is significantly greater. This, you keep justifying with the fact that the IA books simply offer quantitatively more rules, even though it is widely acknowledged that in smooth game design, less is usually more as far as rules go.

Yes, it's about twice as expensive, but it also contains more than twice as much content (both fluff and rules). If you look at what you get for your money the FW book is a much better deal.

Also, less is more when you're talking about elegant design of single items. It's not at all the same when you're talking about getting one item vs. many items.

The fact that Forge World actually needed to write an entire new army list to make Elysians work, rather than using - occam's razor - the standard Imperial Guard list, perhaps with an alternative HQ or a variant Warlord Trait list, is testimony to the vastly inferiour game-developing skills among the Forge World team compared to the GW-studio and the brilliant minimalist approach seen, not least, in the Iyanden book.

Err, lol? Trying to make the IG codex work as a proper Elysian army would have been an awkward mess. It could be done, but by the time you've made all the necessary changes you've got a document that is much less elegant than just making a separate army list. But I don't know, maybe you think a bunch of Iyanden-style "replace X option with Y option" nonsense is better design than just re-printing everything with X replaced with Y.

Also, "brilliant minimalist design" is a pretty optimistic way of describing it. I prefer "lazy design", since that's exactly what it is: you get a set of add-on rules that even you admit aren't all that important, and no restrictions on taking un-fluffy elements or balancing factors to make you pay a price for getting the new options.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:


I agree, but in the cases of players who have been around for decades, what does the Iyanden book really add as new Fluff?

So in the end, does the new bits of fluff really appeal and justify that the rules arn't the most important thing in the book?

Does the 40K Fluff justify one of the most expensive games around?

If the fluff isn't for you, you might as well play Snap, Flip-a-Coin or Rock-Paper-Scissor? No? The entire hobby of 40K (and the money one needs to spend on it) certainly cannot in any way be justified by the rules (really, have you ever seen somebody say they play 40K for the rules? Would you play 40K with abstract Risk-Gaming-Pieces simply because it's such a great set of rules?)

That said, what fluff was there about Iyanden?

Codex Eldar 4th Edition wrote:
“Once the largest and most populous of the craftworlds, Iyanden has been reduced to a shadow of its former glory in a bitter war with the Tyranid race. It was an attack by the Tyranid hive fleet known as Kraken that rang the death knell for the craftworld. Thousands upon thousands of its warriors fell in battle against the Great Devourer. On the verge of utter defeat, Iyanden was saved from extermination by the return of Prince Yriel and his Eldritch Raiders.“

Codex Eldar 6th Edition wrote:
"Once the largest and most populous of all the craftworlds, Iyanden has been reduced to a shadow of its former glory in a bitter war with the Tyranids. Thousands upon thousands of its noble warriors fell in battle against the Great Devourer. On the verge of utter defeat, Iyanden was saved from extermination by the return of Prince Yriel and his Eldritch Raiders."

All "we" knew from the 4th Edition Codex Eldar was that they were intergalactic roadkill too slow to get out of the way of the incoming Nids.

And the 6th Edition Codex Eldar fluff is a celebration of Phil Kelly's incredible copy-&-paste skills.

I think Iyanden's story was a story well worth telling in more detail. But, obviously, if you're not interested in an expansion Iyanden's background, don't buy the book! (duh!) Because you're not missing anything!! Why would you be even interested in the 2 pages of rules in the book if you're not interested in the background in the first place?

 shamikebab wrote:
So there are missing rules from the Dark Angels, Daemons, Tau and CSM codices then are there?

Tau are obviously missing the Farsight stuff. When the codex was released I immediately noticed a Farsight-shaped hole in the book that suddenly made sense when the Iyanden supplement was announced. Like the Eldar codex they've pretty obviously cut out that content to sell it as another expensive book.

DA/CSM/Demons, I don't think so, since we haven't heard anything about new supplements for them yet and I haven't seen too many complaints about things that are obviously missing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zweischneid wrote:
Why would you be even interested in the 2 pages of rules in the book if you're not interested in the background in the first place?

Because you want to know what your opponents are going to bring, or because it makes your Eldar army better at winning. You really need to learn that not everyone shares your priorities and stop assuming that if they don't care as much about the fluff as you do they shouldn't be playing 40k.

 Peregrine wrote:

DA/CSM/Demons, I don't think so, since we haven't heard anything about new supplements for them yet and I haven't seen too many complaints about things that are obviously missing.

Legion rules?

 Peregrine wrote:


Because you want to know what your opponents are going to bring, or because it makes your Eldar army better at winning. You really need to learn that not everyone shares your priorities and stop assuming that if they don't care as much about the fluff as you do they shouldn't be playing 40k.

I know that not everyone shares my priorities. You and I have different opinions.

But it seems ludicrous to ask GW to not publish rules so people not interested in these rules either way would not have to buy them out of some self-imposed rule to "own everything", even though there are actually people out there that do enjoy expanded background rules for, as one example, the Iyanden Craftworld, and would actually want to buy it in order to actually play it.

It's like saying "I don't like Orks and would never play them, but because I "must" buy the book because I may face them on the table, I'd rather have GW discontinue Orks". I believe the "right" for people who enjoy Orks to actually have an Ork Codex would trump the "economical concerns" of the non-Ork-playing-obsessive-book-collectors.

There is, in your words, a "precedent" among tournaments, etc.. to bring the rules for YOUR army and models, and to have those rules available for your opponent to look at if needed. That particular norm has worked very well in the past. It would work like a charm with the Iyanden (or any other) Supplement too.

 Peregrine wrote:

 shamikebab wrote:
So there are missing rules from the Dark Angels, Daemons, Tau and CSM codices then are there?

Tau are obviously missing the Farsight stuff. When the codex was released I immediately noticed a Farsight-shaped hole in the book that suddenly made sense when the Iyanden supplement was announced. Like the Eldar codex they've pretty obviously cut out that content to sell it as another expensive book.

DA/CSM/Demons, I don't think so, since we haven't heard anything about new supplements for them yet and I haven't seen too many complaints about things that are obviously missing.

But what content is in those books that isn't in the Eldar and Tau books? If they announce a Codex: World Eaters will Codex CSM suddenly have missing rules? Making a supplement doesn't suddenly mean there are things missing from the original codex. What codex has 2 warlord tables, 2 sets of relics etc? It would be a bit odd if Codex Eldar randomly had the rule to make a Wraithknight or Wraithlord your warlord. This is extra stuff, not held back for 'dlc' stuff.

 Zweischneid wrote:
But it seems ludicrous to ask GW to not publish rules so people not interested in these rules either way would not have to buy them out of some self-imposed rule to "own everything", even though there are actually people out there that do enjoy expanded background rules for, as one example, the Iyanden Craftworld, and would actually want to buy it in order to actually play it.

I'm not asking them to not publish the rules, I'm asking them to put them in the codex instead of keeping them separate to sell as day-one DLC. If the fluff about Iyanden is so great then they can sell a fluff-only supplement (with special missions if you want) that doesn't contain rules that are used in normal games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 shamikebab wrote:
Making a supplement doesn't suddenly mean there are things missing from the original codex.

The important part is that it's a supplement soon after the codex is released. A supplement for C:SM would be fine, since it's almost certainly new material that couldn't have been in the codex even if GW wanted it to be. But when you have stuff like the Tau codex having minimal fluff and rules for Farsight because they're about to release a $50 Farsight book it really is something missing from the codex.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Zweischneid wrote:
But it seems ludicrous to ask GW to not publish rules so people not interested in these rules either way would not have to buy them out of some self-imposed rule to "own everything", even though there are actually people out there that do enjoy expanded background rules for, as one example, the Iyanden Craftworld, and would actually want to buy it in order to actually play it.

I'm not asking them to not publish the rules, I'm asking them to put them in the codex instead of keeping them separate to sell as day-one DLC. If the fluff about Iyanden is so great then they can sell a fluff-only supplement (with special missions if you want) that doesn't contain rules that are used in normal games.

But why would you separate the rules from the fluff that goes with them? It's like asking GW to publish the rules for Orks in the Chaos Marines Codex? If the Iyanden fluff and the Iyanden missions are in the Iyanden book, why would you separate the rules to a different book?

The Ork rules are also published in the Ork Codex with the Ork fluff, not in the Chaos Space Marine Codex, even though it might be the more economically convenient place for people who'd rather only by the CSM-Dex. The Elysian Rules are published in the IA3 book along with the appropriate fluff, not in the (brand new) Tau Codex or Imperial Guard Codex.

And, frankly, a "normal" game that depends on the Iyanden rules while ignoring the Iyanden background would be anything but "normal". It'd be an atrocity.

 Peregrine wrote:


The important part is that it's a supplement soon after the codex is released. A supplement for C:SM would be fine, since it's almost certainly new material that couldn't have been in the codex even if GW wanted it to be. But when you have stuff like the Tau codex having minimal fluff and rules for Farsight because they're about to release a $50 Farsight book it really is something missing from the codex.

Well they have Farsight, what more did the last Tau codex have?

The Iyanden rules would have made no sense in the Eldar codex.

 Zweischneid wrote:
But why would you separate the rules from the fluff that goes with them? It's like asking GW to publish the rules for Orks in the Chaos Marines Codex? If the Iyanden fluff and the Iyanden missions are in the Iyanden book, why would you separate the rules to a different book?

That's a ridiculous comparison. Remember that we're talking about "brilliant minimalist design" where Iyanden are Eldar with just a few minor changes? Putting those changes in the Eldar codex as another option makes perfect sense.

And, frankly, a "normal" game that depends on the Iyanden rules while ignoring the Iyanden background would be anything but "normal". It'd be an atrocity.

And guess what: not everyone plays the game like you. I'm glad that you love fluff, but some of us have to deal with things like someone using the Iyanden supplement rules because their Wave Serpent/flamer Wraithguard spam list (built because it wins tournaments, not because it's fluffy) really likes it when the Wraithguard get to shoot and run.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 shamikebab wrote:
Well they have Farsight, what more did the last Tau codex have?

The previous codex didn't have much more (except some "fluffy" rules that most people hated), but a new codex should expand the army, not just copy/paste the same old content from the previous codices. Farsight is really popular fluff-wise with Tau players (far more than any of the other characters) and the lack of new material in the codex felt like a really sad missed opportunity. Except now we know that it was a deliberate choice to sell a $50 Farsight book.

Should it? If each codex expanded on the previous then they would eventually become overly complicated.

They could do more fluff but then I think that about every codex.

You were talking about missing rules though. What missing Farsight rules were there from the Tau codex?

 Peregrine wrote:


And guess what: not everyone plays the game like you. I'm glad that you love fluff, but some of us have to deal with things like someone using the Iyanden supplement rules because their Wave Serpent/flamer Wraithguard spam list (built because it wins tournaments, not because it's fluffy) really likes it when the Wraithguard get to shoot and run.

If they do, most tournaments will require them to bring the Iyanden book along for you to look at.

Again, I do understand where you coming from, even if I don't agree.

It's a question of proportionality, not principle. The "need-to-see-all-rules-before-the-tournament" are small sub-group of tournament-players, who in turn are only a sub-group of all 40K players. That this small group (to which you apparently belong, and I apparently don't) should hold the entire 40K publishing process hostage in the way you would prefer is simply far, far, far, far beyond any reasonable commensurability.

There are other "sub-groups" in the hobby, some with gaming-preferences diametrically opposite to the "style" you prefer, and you wouldn't be happy having their style imposed on you either.

The "everyone-brings-the-rules-for-their-own-army-to-a-tournament-so-the-opponent-can-look" is a good solution that has worked well for decades. It has worked for you too in past tournaments, I am sure.

 shamikebab wrote:
Should it? If each codex expanded on the previous then they would eventually become overly complicated.

Sure, if you keep doing it forever. But don't forget that the Tau had a 4th edition codex that was criticized for being too limited (especially once terrible internal balance made most of the units unplayable). There was a lot of room to expand, but other than the mandatory-for-6th (pointless and unfluffy) flyers and (pointless and unfluffy) large-base MC there wasn't very much expansion.

You were talking about missing rules though. What missing Farsight rules were there from the Tau codex?

I don't know what GW had in mind. People were hoping that Farsight would make crisis suits troops (with Shadowsun doing the same with stealth suits), but who knows if GW will do it. But whatever the rules end up being I don't think they're going to be anything that couldn't have gone in the codex.

 Zweischneid wrote:
That this small group (to which you apparently belong, and I apparently don't) should hold the entire 40K publishing process hostage in the way you would prefer is simply far, far, far, far beyond any reasonable commensurability.

Where's the hostage-holding? If all the rules are in the codex where they should be (with supplements doing fluff, not standard-game rules) everyone wins. The only loss is the ability to sell an extra $50 book as day-one DLC.

 Peregrine wrote:


Where's the hostage-holding? If all the rules are in the codex where they should be (with supplements doing fluff, not standard-game rules) everyone wins. The only loss is the ability to sell an extra $50 book as day-one DLC.

Quite the opposite. I'd consider it immensely unethical if the Iyanden rules were in the Eldar Codex with a sticky note saying "the missions and background these rules are meant to be used with will come in a different book". THAT would be unethical commercial behaviour.

There is a reason we have "Codexes" in the first place, and not all rules in the BRB. Because the fluff is in the Codexes!!!! Because Warhammer 40K is not Risk and the fluff is what drives the ship.

There is nothing lost by publishing rules wherever and whenever the background these rules are meant to emulate are happened to be published. Hell, I wish each Black Library book would come with a little rules-appendix for one or two things happening in the book.

If you they become relevant in a tourny, people will have to bring them along. Everyone wins.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:


Where's the hostage-holding? If all the rules are in the codex where they should be (with supplements doing fluff, not standard-game rules) everyone wins. The only loss is the ability to sell an extra $50 book as day-one DLC.

Quite the opposite. I'd consider it immensely unethical if the Iyanden rules were in the Eldar Codex with a sticky note saying "the missions and background these rules are meant to be used with will come in a different book". THAT would be unethical commercial behaviour.

It's as if you intentionally find the most absent minded and difficult ways to do things.

Take the Iyanden rules, put them in the codex, make them fit with the rest of the book. There's no reason to put a note alluding to a specific expansion book. The basic introductory Iyanden fluff is already in the codex.

There is a reason we have "Codexes" in the first place, and not all rules in the BRB. Because the fluff is in the Codexes!!!! Because Warhammer 40K is not Risk and the fluff is what drives the ship.

If "fluff is what drives the ship," then that would be a perfect excuse to keep it entirely separate from the rules, and to sell it on its own merits.

Of course, if "the fluff is what drives the ship," then it must be a sign of considerable unease with how that ship is being run if the fluff ends up being hilariously and horribly retconned at every possible opportunity.

 Fafnir wrote:


If "fluff is what drives the ship," then that would be a perfect excuse to keep it entirely separate from the rules, and to sell it on its own merits.

Of course, if "the fluff is what drives the ship," then it must be a sign of considerable unease with how that ship is being run if the fluff ends up being hilariously and horribly retconned at every possible opportunity.

Not any more than it must be a sign of considerable unease with how that ship is being run if the rules are constantly retconned every 4 years or so, assuming the rules are what drives the ship.

 Fafnir wrote:

Take the Iyanden rules, put them in the codex, make them fit with the rest of the book. There's no reason to put a note alluding to a specific expansion book. The basic introductory Iyanden fluff is already in the codex.

So should all Space Marines be in one rule book? How about having Eldar and Dark Eldar in the same book? I don't recall anyone saying rules were left out of the Space Marine codex when Blood Angels got a codex.

Zweischneid wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:


If "fluff is what drives the ship," then that would be a perfect excuse to keep it entirely separate from the rules, and to sell it on its own merits.

Of course, if "the fluff is what drives the ship," then it must be a sign of considerable unease with how that ship is being run if the fluff ends up being hilariously and horribly retconned at every possible opportunity.

Not any more than it must be a sign of considerable unease with how that ship is being run if the rules are constantly retconned every 4 years or so, assuming the rules are what drives the ship.

Well, the rules clearly don't run the ship, because they're garbage.

By GW's own admission, they're in it for the models.

shamikebab wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

Take the Iyanden rules, put them in the codex, make them fit with the rest of the book. There's no reason to put a note alluding to a specific expansion book. The basic introductory Iyanden fluff is already in the codex.

So should all Space Marines be in one rule book?

Actually, most of them should actually be consolidated into one book. Not much of value would be lost.

How about having Eldar and Dark Eldar in the same book?

Straw men are something everyone can appreciate, really.

I don't recall anyone saying rules were left out of the Space Marine codex when Blood Angels got a codex.

Consider the release windows of the armies in this example. Then consider just how stupid this comparison is.

 Zweischneid wrote:
Not any more than it must be a sign of considerable unease with how that ship is being run if the rules are constantly retconned every 4 years or so, assuming the rules are what drives the ship.

What? A rules update is a bad thing? Making progress (Debatable I guess) is bad? Considering this is a game, if it had no rules, or basic foundation of how to play, it wouldn't be a game. I'd say rules are driving the ship.
Edit; also, this seems to be going a bit OT, perhaps make another thread for this discussion?
OP; Sounds good. I place my money on the Farsight book being next month or the month after.

 Fafnir wrote:


Well, the rules clearly don't run the ship, because they're garbage.

By GW's own admission, they're in it for the models.

If the rules are garbage, and explicitly not the focus of the company, why are you so obsessed with having "all the rules" (and GW releasing rules in a way that makes it easy for you to "get them all").

At the very least, you should probably be obsessed with having "all the models", if you need to have some form of "must-have-it-all" obsession at all and the models are, by GW's own admission, the core of the whole thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

blood lance wrote:

What? A rules update is a bad thing? Making progress (Debatable I guess) is bad?

I don't think a rules update is a bad thing, just like I don't think a fluff update is a bad thing. Quite the opposite. Lazy copy-&-paste Codexes that don't add anything new (e.g. the 6th Edition Eldar or Daemons Codex) are probably the ones GW shouldn't have updated. The books that actually do something new and creative with the fluff (Necrons, Iyanden) are the ones that are the most enjoyable to read.

blood lance wrote:

Considering this is a game, if it had no rules, or basic foundation of how to play, it wouldn't be a game. I'd say rules are driving the ship.

Well, I'd argue that for people looking for good rules, there are millions of alternative games out there with far better rules, far lower entry-costs, a far better organized tournament-circus, often with far higher prize-money, etc... . If that is your priority, why are you playing 40K?

I don't play GW games anymore, but that doesn't mean I want to not play GW games anymore.

GW splitting their rules into supplements in order to push people to buy even more ridiculously overpriced books is only serving to make it ever more difficult to see a point where I could consider coming back to play GW's games. It's a move in a direction that is bad for gamers.

 Fafnir wrote:
I don't play GW games anymore, but that doesn't mean I want to not play GW games anymore.

But why do you want to play 40K?

If Games Workshop were to publish a "rules-only" edition with only the rules, and 20 fluff-free army lists (red army, blue army, fast army, horde army, floaty army), all as a free pdf and to be used with US$ 0.01 coloured plastic counters, would you jump back in?

What's the appeal of 40K without the fluff (and the models that originate from the fluff)?

What exactly is in the 40K rules (!) that makes it worth spending hundreds, if not thousands of dollars, if you could instead just pick up a US$ 10,- Chess Set or a used box of Risk or Monopoly on eBay and play "competitively" with some of the best players in the world for many ten-thousands of dollars (or hundred-thousands for chess) of prize money?

I think the problem is people seem to be under the impression that these supplementary codices are compulsory. Codex Eldar and Codex Tau are complete codices, just as Codex Space Marines is a complete codex. You don't need Iyanden to play Eldar (You don't even need Iyanden to play a fluffy Iyanden list!) It's just an optional extra for fans that want to read more fluff of that craftowlrd/chapter/sect, a few missions and some items and rule modifiers for flavor.

 shamikebab wrote:
I think the problem is people seem to be under the impression that these supplementary codices are compulsory. Codex Eldar and Codex Tau are complete codices, just as Codex Space Marines is a complete codex. You don't need Iyanden to play Eldar (You don't even need Iyanden to play a fluffy Iyanden list!) It's just an optional extra for fans that want to read more fluff of that craftowlrd/chapter/sect, a few missions and some items and rule modifiers for flavor.

Well, the argument was that some people on this forum felt it was compulsory to buy the Iyanden Supplement (and the Eldar Codex) despite not even playing Iyanden or Eldar at all.

Is the Iyanden book compulsory to play an Iyanden army? I think not, but it's a different argument.

The ludicrous argument was that some people feel GW somehow "forces" them to buy Iyanden, even though they (competitively) play, say, Chaos Space Marines.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
I don't play GW games anymore, but that doesn't mean I want to not play GW games anymore.

But why do you want to play 40K?

If Games Workshop were to publish a "rules-only" edition with only the rules, and 20 fluff-free army lists (red army, blue army, fast army, horde army, floaty army), all as a free pdf and to be used with US$ 0.01 coloured plastic counters, would you jump back in?

What's the appeal of 40K without the fluff (and the models that originate from the fluff)?

What exactly is in the 40K rules (!) that makes it worth spending hundreds, if not thousands of dollars, if you could instead just pick up a US$ 10,- Chess Set or a used box of Risk or Monopoly on eBay and play "competitively" with some of the best players in the world for many ten-thousands of dollars (or hundred-thousands for chess) of prize money?

I'm sorry but that looks like a blatant strawman argument to me.
Yes fluff is important, I don't think anyone here has argued that they should release books without fluff.

The point Fafnir was trying to make (and you seem to have tried to ignore) is that GW have turned 40k into something he no longer wants to play. I am in the exact same boat here, I like the 40k fluff, the game was my first real wargame and I want to like it, but with the way GW are treating it I can't get excited about it.

That isn't going to change any time soon if GW keep doing things like releasing these codex supplements. In Australia they are charging $124 for the rulebook, $84 for a codex and now $84 for a codex supplement. I am not getting back into any game that costs me $293 in rules alone. If they simply added most of the Iyanden fluff and all 2 pages of rules to the Eldar codex then it might actually justify the price of it to begin with but all I see looking at this is GW trying to squeeze more money out of people for rulebooks despite repeatedly claiming to be a model company, not a rules company whenever someone pointed out the rules are not as good as other games on the market.

Also everyone saying you don't NEED that book is right. You don't need the Iyanden book to play a Iyanden army. But what happens then the new Marine codex comes out and you can no longer take bikes as a troop choice without the White Scars supplement? Then you DO need it.

Well now you're just guessing, Codex Eldar let's you take Wraithguard as troops without having to buy Codex Iyanden, so surely there is as much chance that Codex Space Marines will let you take bikes as troops?

 jonolikespie wrote:


The point Fafnir was trying to make (and you seem to have tried to ignore) is that GW have turned 40k into something he no longer wants to play. I am in the exact same boat here, I like the 40k fluff, the game was my first real wargame and I want to like it, but with the way GW are treating it I can't get excited about it.

Well, the point I keep hearing is that the way they would like (!) GW to go about make 40K again a game they "want to play", is to draw a more stringent separation between the "rules-publications" and the "fluff-publications". So it is not a straw-man argument, unless you have some credible argument on why anyone would want those rules by themselves, separate from the fluff, which would presumably depend on some quality that is intrinsic to the rules themselves, and not the fluff. I fail to see this quality in the 40K rules, hence why I am asking you (and others).

For a game build around fluff, it would seem counter-productive and unnecessarily obfuscate to separate the two. If the fluff is important to you, as you claim, you'd see the ludicrousness of trying to separate out the game rules from the fluff for a game that thrives on the appeal of its fluff (and not on the appeal of its sleek game-rules independent/separate of its fluff).

I am not saying GW doesn't do (a lot of) things wrong, or that their prices couldn't be different. But if they release some 50 pages of Iyanden fluff, than that is the place the Iyanden rules should be too!!

If they don't release more in-depth Iyanden fluff, there'd be no point to have more in-depth Iyanden rules in the first place. Not even in the Eldar Codex. They'd just be rules without a purpose.

 jonolikespie wrote:


Also everyone saying you don't NEED that book is right. You don't need the Iyanden book to play a Iyanden army. But what happens then the new Marine codex comes out and you can no longer take bikes as a troop choice without the White Scars supplement? Then you DO need it.

If that will be the case with a White Scars supplement, I'll be with you on that point.

At this point in time, I see GW moving into the opposite direction, away from things like Death from the Skies (which was fully guilty of your complaints) and towards things like the Iyanden Book, which explicitly has only optional, mission-inspired "flavour" rules that are not needed to play Iyanden, while leaving all the "essential" Iyanden stuff (Yriel, Wraithguard troops, etc..) in the main Eldar book.

At this point in time, I see GW moving into the opposite direction

Look, this hobby (GW gaming) is absolutely stacked full of conflicting wants and needs. Some want a tournament game, some want a beer & pretzels game. Some want huge models, some want rank and file maneouvring. Some want player involved skill like guessing distances, some want things to be as automatic as possible. Some like random 'cinematic' events, some like everything to be as predictable as possible.

Clearly, some people like Apocalypse, since GW thinks that's where the money is at. I, as a 22 year veteran of playing GW games, think that Apocalypse is a laughable, travesty of a game. I also think allies and fortifications were an idiotic thing to add to 40K, and once they do the same to Warhammer Fantasy they will deliver the killing blow to that game and any competitive circuit it used to have. However, clearly, some people disagree with me, since they think beer & pretzels games where every toy from your bitz box can play for your army is cool and where some spell from a dusty tome removes entire table pieces without anyone being able to counter. HAHA look I killed three dozens of your models with my automatically hitting super duper stratagem cards! HAHA! Yeah, I'm not laughing, but sure enough hundreds of people disagree with me.

Likewise, some people don't have a problem with the way GW prices things. None at all. They look at the costs of other hobbies available to them and consider GW gaming rather cheap. Some people don't agree and have left the hobby because of the pricing.

In the big picture of things what difference do you think it makes whether you agree with Codex: Iyanden or Farsight Enclave or not? GW decides it wants to add 1 paragraph of rules in a 50 dollar book then that's what GW will do. There are people this won't affect at all, people who are fine with this, and people who dislike it, but it'll be just like the thousand other things wrong and right in this hobby. Is it a big deal in this mess? I doubt it.

BL just put this on-line:

That looks kinda cool. Not liking how this looks like a "digital only" release, though, because this is a release I would have actually been interested in picking up as a physical book. I'm not buying a fething iPad for this.

I'm looking forward to this release, if the fluff is as extensive as the Iyanden supplement it will be a good read. There is so much left-to-the-imagination stuff about Farsight that he's one of the more interesting variances in an otherwise controlled Tau empire. I'm also interested in seeing whether there will be any new models/units that accompany the release, or whether it will be just new rules to add to the existing Tau codex. I am hoping for new units, because I have had my fingers crossed for a Codex: Kroot for several years now, and I could only see it happening if precedence is set for new unit entries in a codex supplement. Iyanden didn't have this, when it could have been easy to add an Iyanna or Wraithseer unit entry and model with the codex release, so I don't feel too optimistic that these codex supplements will be used to introduce new sculpts.

There are some cool things they could do for this release, but likely won't. They released Farsight and direct-only shoulderpads in Finecast with the Tau release and I expect that's all we'll get.

They won't release a new battlesuit kit, because I doubt even GW is willing to risk pissing people off that much. Tau players were waiting years for a Tau update in hopes it would also mean a redesigned crisis suit kit to go with it, instead we got a repack of the old, gakky suits. Imagine how much rage there will be if a mere two months after the fact the "real" kit comes out and the repack was just an obvious attempt to reduce stock before putting the new one out there. Then again maybe they don't care and they just assume new and old players alike will flock to stores (their stores, no others, of course) to buy the new kit even if they haven't finished assembling the ones they bought weeks ago. In any case I doubt we'll see new kits or characters anyway since none of that came out with the Iyanden supplement.

The best anyone can hope for is more Finecast conversion bits, maybe alternate heads, shields, or things like shoulder pads/armor for the existing crisis suit kit to convert Farsight's bodyguards or just generic Enclave suits with. Farsight is supposed to be using an older mark of battlesuit with customized armor and other enhancements from his own engineers so it would be kinda cool if you could convert other suits up to sort of match him.

This may be a bit stupid of a question, but... why would you pre-order an e-book? Are you worried they are going to run out of internets?

Considering how GW has been lately I wouldn't be surprised if they somehow "ran out" of downloads and there was a 4-6 week wait to get more.

They will only run out of the limited collectors edition digital codex. It's the same book, but with different cover art and a modified price to reflect such quality.

Well at least we have some concrete information now, was getting sick of reading the debate on whether or not codex supplements touch us inappropriately.

Have we been able to confirm if this will have no physical release? That seems like that would be a huge mistake. If I'm forced to buy an iPad in order to have access to 40k material, I honestly will sell my entire collection and never touch GW again.

 Amun-Rom wrote:
Have we been able to confirm if this will have no physical release? That seems like that would be a huge mistake. If I'm forced to buy an iPad in order to have access to 40k material, I honestly will sell my entire collection and never touch GW again.

I highly doubt that you will. Hyperbole through and through.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
This may be a bit stupid of a question, but... why would you pre-order an e-book? Are you worried they are going to run out of internets?

Exalted. But then again this is GW we are talking about.

That always makes me smile. Adding '...but then again, this is GW' to justify anything you like never gets old!

Well, they may believe this Interweb thing is a passing fad, so keeping it limited ensures they won't be left with unsellable digital codexes!

On warseer I saw that the text reads: "Independence from the empire. Join the rebellion."

 Shandara wrote:
Well, they may believe this Interweb thing is a passing fad, so keeping it limited ensures they won't be left with unsellable digital codexes!

And if it doesn't sell well, they might have to destroy the product to ensure no one knows it didn't sell well. Therefore, GW will, logically, destroy the internet.

Or better yet, they'll make their own Citadel FineWeb. It's not like it could be any worse than Internet Explorer.





More seriously, I'm rather dismayed that they publicly stated they're going to increase support for non-Apple digital products, with slightly lower prices no less, and then a Farsight expansion, which is a damned sight more interesting, and probably has a lot more potential sales volume than Iyanden is apple-only.

Hey, uhm, GeeDubs, I like most of your models, I like your game, but I'll sooner prance around town naked on a purple pony screaming "I am the chosen one!" to everyone in sight than buy an iPad for your supplements.

I'd be more interested in reading the fluff than using the rules, but I dont think I will drop the money on it. Am I the only one that thinks you should get a code to download the i-pad version for free when you buy the hard copy? I feel robbed paying £30 for the book, I would spend it on an app.

If they gave a copy of the download along with the hardcover lots of folk would then sell the book (brand new) second hand

so although it would be cool, it's not going to happen

(it doesn't even happen for much cheaper ordinary fiction)

Yeah, and lots of people could buy the book, scan it, make their own .pdf, and then sell it on second hand, no? So if that's what they're afraid of then they might as well stop selling books entirely.

Well they could do, but then they'd be criminals (even if they don't see themselves that way)

If they gave away a digital copy with the physical copy no crime would be committed and at least some are deterred by not wanting to break the law

Updated the OP with the picture... Weird that this gets so little hype and weird that it's to be released on the same date as Apoc - makes me fear a non physical copy is the route they are taking.

Yeah, you bad criminals lol!

On a serious note is there an actual law to stop you scanning something you own? I would quite frankly be surprised if there was, I'm sure its only if you 'share' it online, so if you keep it for personal use, where's the harm?

Obviously the answer could vary significantly depending on the country but at least in the US I believe it's ok for you to copy it for your own personal use but not to disseminate it.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Yeah, and lots of people could buy the book, scan it, make their own .pdf, and then sell it on second hand, no? So if that's what they're afraid of then they might as well stop selling books entirely.

Yeah, that's illegal and takes a lot of effort so it's really not the same.

overtyrant wrote:
Yeah, you bad criminals lol!

On a serious note is there an actual law to stop you scanning something you own? I would quite frankly be surprised if there was, I'm sure its only if you 'share' it online, so if you keep it for personal use, where's the harm?

In the US I think it's ok under their 'fair use' doctrine (but I think it would have to be you making a copy of your book, not for example grabbing a download from a torrent site just because you own the physical copy)

In the UK it's not allowed (even if most people think it is)

Considering Iyanden started as iPad only and then a physical book came later, its reasonable to assume this will be the same.

I don't expect any new models (maybe some conversion bits if we're lucky), but if there's some slight mods to wargear and some different warlord traits and that sort of thing, I'm gonna support that. And yes, of course it costs too fething much =P

I'll repeat what I said earlier... I'm excited about the possibility / promise of being able to field a Farsight Enclave force that doesn't necessarily have to include Farsight himself. The thing where its the special character that changes your list always bugged me.

It's the same with Marines, with all those special characters being required for alternate chapters to even have access to their own rules. It's nonsense.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Well they could do, but then they'd be criminals (even if they don't see themselves that way)

If they gave away a digital copy with the physical copy no crime would be committed and at least some are deterred by not wanting to break the law

Um you might wanna recheck your laws, reselling the book is fine, scanning it is also fine unless you then try to sell the scan.
Once you buy it it's your property and you're free to do whatever with it, we all saw what trying to do things otherwise got Microsoft – hate and rage.

 Micky wrote:
Considering Iyanden started as iPad only and then a physical book came later, its reasonable to assume this will be the same.

I don't expect any new models (maybe some conversion bits if we're lucky), but if there's some slight mods to wargear and some different warlord traits and that sort of thing, I'm gonna support that. And yes, of course it costs too fething much =P

I'll repeat what I said earlier... I'm excited about the possibility / promise of being able to field a Farsight Enclave force that doesn't necessarily have to include Farsight himself. The thing where its the special character that changes your list always bugged me.

It's the same with Marines, with all those special characters being required for alternate chapters to even have access to their own rules. It's nonsense.

Man I agree. I like the Farsight Enclave, but I do not like fielding Farsight. I hope there are options that make it distinctive without fielding him.

Please please PLEASE be on android, I may only have a phone but I want it.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Please please PLEASE be on android, I may only have a phone but I want it.

Hah!

 Micky wrote:
Considering Iyanden started as iPad only and then a physical book came later, its reasonable to assume this will be the same.

Iyanden iPad and book version were announced the same time and release dates only a week apart.
No Farsight book in sight. So it is not the same. I suspect, the Farsight thing is much much thinner, maybe the price will tell.

 HoverBoy wrote:
Once you buy it it's your property and you're free to do whatever with it

Not in America, ironically.

 Sidstyler wrote:

 HoverBoy wrote:
Once you buy it it's your property and you're free to do whatever with it

Not in America, ironically.

For the love of god people, what the hell are you letting your government do over there!

 HoverBoy wrote:

 Sidstyler wrote:

 HoverBoy wrote:
Once you buy it it's your property and you're free to do whatever with it

Not in America, ironically.

For the love of god people, what the hell are you letting your government do over there!

What's even worse, is that we're letting their government do it over here too, somewhat.

In Australia you are legally allowed to format shift a physical book you own into a digital copy. If you no longer have the physical copy, you must delete the digital copy. You have to do the scanning yourself - using a version scanned from a different copy of the same book doesn't count and is still illegal. Good luck proving it though, so you should be sweet.

I'd be all for some reasonably priced digital copies.

So, I just combed through 6 pages of debate about the merits (or lack thereof) of supplemental codecies, can someone point me to where the actual rumors about the contents of this book (/pdf thing) are? Any rules rumors whatsoever? Any fluffy rumors at all? No?

No, that image on the previous page is literally all we have right now.

Please God....please let crisis be troop choices

 Sidstyler wrote:
No, that image on the previous page is literally all we have right now.

While it isn't much more, the July White Dwarf did have this text (also in the first post):

Commander O'Shovah is a maverick, a greatly admired military leader who has broken ranks with the Tau Empire and carved out a highly militarised region on the edge of Tau space, known as the Farsight Enclave.

This expansion for Codex: Tau Empire, available for iPad, explores the breakaway Farsight Enclave in greater detail than ever. It contains new background, a timeline of events, rules for using your Tau Empire collection and a glorious gallery of Citadel miniatures painted in the colours of the Farsight Enclave by the 'Eavy Metal team and the Design Studio army painters. This is the perfect compaion for your Tau Empire codex on the iPad.

But besides that we have neither any rumours, nor any actual information.


The only other thing is a rumour from before the Tau codex was released that O'Shovah would make Crisis as troops in the new codex, and since it didn't happen some people are wondering if the rumour monger mixed up the supplement with the real codex. But it's speculation at best to assume that it's included in this supplement (though I bet it would make it sell!).

Oh yeah, definitely...though kind of an odd marketing move considering that it looks like there won't be any insanely overpriced $50 hardcover book to push this time around?

Yeah, assuming there were a couple dozen pages of actual fluff I might actually pay $50 for a hardcover of this one... Iyanden? Not so much.

I'd probably buy it if it came out in hardcover. I'm more in this game for the painting and fluff than anything else. Theres also a sense of "completeness" if you will from having all the rulebooks of a race, and I would rather have a hard copy than a digital one at the moment. I have serious issues with GW (I think I am not alone in that), but I can understand that it's a business model, not a personal vendetta (though my wallet tells me otherwise). I would be surprised if they didn't come out with a hardcover codex suppliment to order, since it sounds like the Iyanden one sold so well. Maybe it just isn't enough fluff to make an entire book? If so, that doesn't bode well for any other future suppliments in my opinion.

ajsnips44 wrote:
Please God....please let crisis be troop choices

So many times this!

Riptides as troops.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Riptides as troops.

Not quite yet, but this is the inevitable future that will bring the galaxy under Tau rule.
A Riptide for every Fire Warrior.

Get with the program GW. Android is way ahead of Apple by virtue of the simple fact that it's not NEARLY as proprietary.
Android compatibility will cover a lot more bases, accessibility-wise, than Apple compatibility.
I would buy this if it were on Android. I highly doubt I'm the only one.
Nobody is going to drop the Benjamins for an iPad just so they can have your new book. (Especially when they have superior tablets which cost less.)

 Archonate wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Riptides as troops.

Not quite yet, but this is the inevitable future that will bring the galaxy under Tau rule.
A Riptide for every Fire Warrior.

Get with the program GW. Android is way ahead of Apple by virtue of the simple fact that it's not NEARLY as proprietary.
Android compatibility will cover a lot more bases, accessibility-wise, than Apple compatibility.
I would buy this if it were on Android. I highly doubt I'm the only one.
Nobody is going to drop the Benjamins for an iPad just so they can have your new book. (Especially when they have superior tablets which cost less.)

This is a tired argument and is all based on personal preference. That proprietary format, as has been discussed MANY times, is one of the primary reasons for GW to launch products on iOS.

Plenty of people "drop the Benjamin's" for an iPad for tons of other reasons. Whatever superiority you allude to is, again, purely based on personal preference.

 cincydooley wrote:

 Archonate wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Riptides as troops.

Not quite yet, but this is the inevitable future that will bring the galaxy under Tau rule.
A Riptide for every Fire Warrior.

Get with the program GW. Android is way ahead of Apple by virtue of the simple fact that it's not NEARLY as proprietary.
Android compatibility will cover a lot more bases, accessibility-wise, than Apple compatibility.
I would buy this if it were on Android. I highly doubt I'm the only one.
Nobody is going to drop the Benjamins for an iPad just so they can have your new book. (Especially when they have superior tablets which cost less.)

This is a tired argument and is all based on personal preference. That proprietary format, as has been discussed MANY times, is one of the primary reasons for GW to launch products on iOS.

Plenty of people "drop the Benjamin's" for an iPad for tons of other reasons. Whatever superiority you allude to is, again, purely based on personal preference.

Actually, no - there are plenty of better tablets (spec wise, features wise) that cost less than the 'equivalent' ipad.

It's kind of apples thing, costing between 50% and 600% more than the equivalent not-apple product.

 Ovion wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:

 Archonate wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Riptides as troops.

Not quite yet, but this is the inevitable future that will bring the galaxy under Tau rule.
A Riptide for every Fire Warrior.

Get with the program GW. Android is way ahead of Apple by virtue of the simple fact that it's not NEARLY as proprietary.
Android compatibility will cover a lot more bases, accessibility-wise, than Apple compatibility.
I would buy this if it were on Android. I highly doubt I'm the only one.
Nobody is going to drop the Benjamins for an iPad just so they can have your new book. (Especially when they have superior tablets which cost less.)

This is a tired argument and is all based on personal preference. That proprietary format, as has been discussed MANY times, is one of the primary reasons for GW to launch products on iOS.

Plenty of people "drop the Benjamin's" for an iPad for tons of other reasons. Whatever superiority you allude to is, again, purely based on personal preference.

Actually, no - there are plenty of better tablets (spec wise, features wise) that cost less than the 'equivalent' ipad.

It's kind of apples thing, costing between 50% and 600% more than the equivalent not-apple product.

And again, "better" is entirely subjective. Some prefer to pay for the stable platform, access to iTunes, etc.

I have an iPhone and an iPad I have owned android and I would say that I think they are sh*t so that's my opinion

Back to topic,

I'm quite interested to this supplement and I hope that there is some battles that would allow me to use shadowsun and farsight together. I'm hoping for a chaos supplement to follow

 Peregrine wrote:
Can't say I'm surprised by this. It was incredibly obvious that there was going to be a Farsight "supplement" the moment the Eldar one was announced. But I'm still not going to reward GW for cutting material from the codex just so they can sell it separately later.

They're starting to go the way of Day-1 DLC...

 Azazelx wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Can't say I'm surprised by this. It was incredibly obvious that there was going to be a Farsight "supplement" the moment the Eldar one was announced. But I'm still not going to reward GW for cutting material from the codex just so they can sell it separately later.

They're starting to go the way of Day-1 DLC...

The Iyanden one was definitely stuff taken out of the codex. Stuff in that book could have easily been in the eldar codex. The Farsight Enclaves, one of the most under developed concepts in 40k kind of deserve a book of their own. Ill hate the price, but I'll get it if its in book format. If it isn't, they're idiots.

I think this thread is now going in circles...

The Eldar Codex comes in at 105 pages. The Iyanden Codex had about 30 pages of fluff, 2 pages of general rules, 2 pages of Strategems, and a few scenarios. That would have expanded the Eldar Codex by over a third, just on one Craftworld. No doubt then other Craftworld players would be wanting their own sections. If they all had about equal sized sections, then the Eldar Codex would have been over double in size and higher in price. Of course then some might then be complaining of having to pay increased price for Craftworlds they don't play.

Iracundus wrote:
The Eldar Codex comes in at 105 pages. The Iyanden Codex had about 30 pages of fluff, 2 pages of general rules, 2 pages of Strategems, and a few scenarios. That would have expanded the Eldar Codex by over a third, just on one Craftworld. No doubt then other Craftworld players would be wanting their own sections. If they all had about equal sized sections, then the Eldar Codex would have been over double in size and higher in price. Of course then some might then be complaining of having to pay increased price for Craftworlds they don't play.

Or maybe they could have kept it at the same price, and it wouldn't seem as ridiculous for once.

 Fafnir wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
The Eldar Codex comes in at 105 pages. The Iyanden Codex had about 30 pages of fluff, 2 pages of general rules, 2 pages of Strategems, and a few scenarios. That would have expanded the Eldar Codex by over a third, just on one Craftworld. No doubt then other Craftworld players would be wanting their own sections. If they all had about equal sized sections, then the Eldar Codex would have been over double in size and higher in price. Of course then some might then be complaining of having to pay increased price for Craftworlds they don't play.

Or maybe they could have kept it at the same price, and it wouldn't seem as ridiculous for once.

So they have doubled the content but kept the price the same?

 BryllCream wrote:
So they have doubled the content but kept the price the same?

Instead they doubled the price and kept the content the same

 BryllCream wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
The Eldar Codex comes in at 105 pages. The Iyanden Codex had about 30 pages of fluff, 2 pages of general rules, 2 pages of Strategems, and a few scenarios. That would have expanded the Eldar Codex by over a third, just on one Craftworld. No doubt then other Craftworld players would be wanting their own sections. If they all had about equal sized sections, then the Eldar Codex would have been over double in size and higher in price. Of course then some might then be complaining of having to pay increased price for Craftworlds they don't play.

Or maybe they could have kept it at the same price, and it wouldn't seem as ridiculous for once.

So they have doubled the content but kept the price the same?

Considering the price of the books and what we're getting now, they could do a fair bit more than doubling the content, and that still wouldn't be unreasonable.

I still don't know how people have detailed knowledge of the inner workings of GW and know for a fact that the rules and fluff in the Iyanden and further suppliments were in their respective codexes to begin with.

It's really amazing that I was writing great Iyanden lists day 1 and then theyre all like "Man, don't you know that they didnt even put your rules in your codex?"

And I was all like "Woah, wait...you mean I can't play a fully themed Iyanden army untill this suppliment hits shelves because it's required to paint your Eldar yellow or play Wriathguard?"

And they were all like "YUUUUP!"

UltraPrime wrote:
I think this thread is now going in circles...

This isn't the Iyanden supplement thread?

Oh do I go to the eldar thread to read about the Farsight supplement...

T'would seem likely that a physical release of this tome will be available in October.

October? That's quite the gap between digital and physical product release.

 Sidstyler wrote:
October? That's quite the gap between digital and physical product release.

Not entirely surprising given all the stock problems they've had. I can believe that an october release date is the first opportunity they'll get to put it into the printing schedule. And of course the fact that they can sell lots of high-profit-margin digital copies to people who don't want to wait is just a nice bonus...

Well, I'll be glad to have it as long as it has decent fluff and new artwork all rolled into a new beautiful book. I really enjoyed reading the Iyanden book so here's hoping for another good book!

 reds8n wrote:
T'would seem likely that a physical release of this tome will be available in October.

Is this a random guess or do you have info on that?

A whisper from me learned friends.

yeah,
Seems strange to leave it soo long , lots of people myself included don't want to buy digital. ibook or pdf...

I only buy paper copies, so GW will have to wait till october to get my money.
And with the availablity of pdf versions they are taking quite the gamble that I'll still be interested in picking up a hard copy of something I've probabily already read 3 months earlier...

Panic...

Hmmm...wonder if it'll be on nook/kindle format before then. I'm definitely interested in this. Otherwise I guess I'll wait till October to get my hard copy while someone tells me the two pages of rules

Wooooo yay!! I hope Farsight gets more overpowered.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Hmmm...wonder if it'll be on nook/kindle format before then. I'm definitely interested in this. Otherwise I guess I'll wait till October to get my hard copy while someone tells me the two pages of rules

I went to my GW today and asked the same question; apparently they were flirting with the idea of putting it on ebook format and used Iyaden and some of the smaller books out there to test the market. Supposedly they prefer to release codexs first on Apple because of the stricter DRM. Though with the physical copy of Farsight coming in October, I'm not sure if the three month gap period is just to 'test the water' or what.

Isnt the eldar codex on epub?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Isnt the eldar codex on epub?

My mistake, it seems its Eldar and not Iyaden on epub/mobi.

 victorydeluxe wrote:
Supposedly they prefer to release codexs first on Apple because of the stricter DRM.

Oh good, the idiots at GW are still hiding their heads in the sand and pretending that DRM actually does anything to prevent a copy of the book being posted within 15 minutes of release. I'm so glad that paying customers are restricted to the ipad so that people who are going to pirate the book have to wait a few minutes for someone to break the DRM.

 Archonate wrote:


Get with the program GW. Android is way ahead of Apple by virtue of the simple fact that it's not NEARLY as proprietary.
Android compatibility will cover a lot more bases, accessibility-wise, than Apple compatibility.
I would buy this if it were on Android. I highly doubt I'm the only one.
Nobody is going to drop the Benjamins for an iPad just so they can have your new book. (Especially when they have superior tablets which cost less.)

While this wasn't the case when they first released digital product, it probably was when the first started planning it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, this thing is up for pre-order now.... In ebook format


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://www.blacklibrary.com/games-workshop-digital-editions/Farsight-Enclaves.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I just pre-ordered the digital product and got the following; Available to download from 20/07/2013

From there Black Library page:

Also included are new missions and rules to use with your Tau Empire collection in games of Warhammer 40,000, so you can re-enact the great victories of the Enclaves, and lead commander Farsights’ elite battlesuit cadres to glory.

I highlighted the part I am most intrested in as if I can take an all battlesuit army then this supplement will have by itself got me back into 40k

An all battlesuit army would definitely get me to throw all my money at the Tau instead of my daemons.

Ok so it can do Epub and mobi. Which one of those works on android?

Hmmm....might get it if it's actually available in July for download. The website itself says August. Glad to see it'll be available though since the Eldar Supplement still isn't available.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok so it can do Epub and mobi. Which one of those works on android?

Either should work. It depends on what your e-reader app supports.
Kindle and Nook apps support both IIRC.

Android does have several Epub read apps that you can use, aswell and Adope digital Editions opens epub on your comp

I recommend MoonReader or MoonReader+ for Android.

MoonReader is free, but I think there's ads, and it's not quite as smooth or polished.

MoonReader+ costs a little (I think £3?) (though is often on a half price sale), is ad free, and slightly faster than its free version.

Here you guys, some pictures of the supplement:

http://www.3plusplus.net/2013/07/farsight-supplement-tau-codex/

Some of the wording looks like Crisis Suits could be Troops.

And love this.... Seismic Fibrillator Node - identified as a potential extra shooting phase...

Couldn't help but notice this when I followed the link:

http://www.blacklibrary.com/games-workshop-digital-editions/Warhammer-40000-The-Rules.html

For $32 that's pretty damn full of win.

Looks like Kirby forgot to take the screen shots from the itunes page.

https://itunes.apple.com/gb/book/farsight-enclaves-codex-tau/id673249523?mt=11

Totally loving the $32 buck basic rules! Bundle

It appears that the iBooks version is now up for preorder in iTunes for $39 as well. I'll probably be willing to pay that extra 7 bucks for all the pop ups.

Interesting... I like the idea of Farsight rebelling because his eyes were opened and not necessarily because he was corrupted by chaos. I always figured he went rogue because of a new found dedication to Khorne.

 cincydooley wrote:
It appears that the iBooks version is now up for preorder in iTunes for $39 as well. I'll probably be willing to pay that extra 7 bucks for all the pop ups.

The Pop ups are so worth every penny on any of the ipad versions

 tastytaste wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
It appears that the iBooks version is now up for preorder in iTunes for $39 as well. I'll probably be willing to pay that extra 7 bucks for all the pop ups.

The Pop ups are so worth every penny on any of the ipad versions

Couldn't agree more. I play enough to know MOST of the rules, but those quick references are, IMO, a real selling point.

Anyone notice? The riptide is piloted by Earth Caste.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Anyone notice? The riptide is piloted by Earth Caste.

Tau codex says made by Earth Caste Engineers, piloted by Fire Caste.

I wonder then what "Earth Caste Pilot Array" is then. Sounds like a new piece of wargear. What if is allows for greater ballistic skill?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And "Warscraper drone" means.

and Fusion Blades

This looks real promising to me, especially since I have about a dozen unused Crisis Suits right now...

 Kirby wrote:
And love this.... Seismic Fibrillator Node - identified as a potential extra shooting phase...

In all likelihood a way to slow down the enemy's movement.

I find it wierd that they are doing pre-orders for a digital product, it's not like they need to get a product count so they can pile up inventory in a warehouse.

Its a digital product which is unlimted in quantity and takes no space. Taking money upfront and making people wait for a digital download is just another silly thing that shows GW is total fail when it comes to the internet.

 paulson games wrote:
I find it wierd that they are doing pre-orders for a digital product, it's not like they need to get a product count so they can pile up inventory in a warehouse.

Its a digital product which is unlimted in quantity and takes no space. Taking money upfront and making people wait for a digital download is just another silly thing that shows GW is total fail when it comes to the internet.

You say this when Steam does preorders and most albums released digitally as well have a 'preorder' period before the release.

One of many reasons why I don't use steam. It makes no sense to pre-order digital items as most pre-orders don't offer any pricebreaks or incentive. Why give a company money in advance when you will get the product at the same time as everybody else? I have better things to do with my money then to let GW sit on it for a month.

I find that Steam generally does offer a pre-order sale on things (usually 10% off).
And/Or particular bonuses for pre-ordering (like when you get GAME 2/3, you get game 1(+2) for free when you preorder and/or exclusive ingame items),
Also often when the release date needs to coincide with a physical release, and they want to ensure they can get their money at the same time as people going and preordering a physical copy.
OR, in some cases it's a long-term preorder, that helps fund the game.
I also can't help but feel it's to help pay whatever setup fees they may have (though I haven't looked at what it takes or costs to put a game on Steam).

These are all sensible excuses / justifications for doing so, though even then some of it is a bit silly.

GW are just treating their digital product the same as their physical product.
And while for some things (like when a Physical and Digital Codex, or Apoc) are set to be released, and they don't want them leaked, giving people the option so they can get more direct sales makes some sense.

For things already released (like the 40k rulebook), or not due to get a physical for months (Farsight Supplement), or is going to be digital only, you're right, it makes exactly zero sense at all.

Can someone confirm if O'shovah makes Crisis Suits Troops in this supplement?

Since they are officially shown as previews on the Black Library website, here some pics:














Plus from the itunes website:

This, actually sounds quite good. Can't wait for the actual hard copy to come out, its strange there's absolutely no mention of this on the GW website, at all. Not even a link to the BL page.
Also, is that "August 2013" the release date? I can't see why someone would pre-order something with no solid release date.

Does anyone have any update on potential rules?

might be slightly off topic but is there any news on a supposed Allies supplement?? or will that encompass ALL armies, rather than being race specific?

The actual Download is July 20th. August is for the Ipad version.

 Ovion wrote:
I find that Steam generally does offer a pre-order sale on things (usually 10% off).
And/Or particular bonuses for pre-ordering (like when you get GAME 2/3, you get game 1(+2) for free when you preorder and/or exclusive ingame items),
Also often when the release date needs to coincide with a physical release, and they want to ensure they can get their money at the same time as people going and preordering a physical copy.
OR, in some cases it's a long-term preorder, that helps fund the game.
I also can't help but feel it's to help pay whatever setup fees they may have (though I haven't looked at what it takes or costs to put a game on Steam).

Pretty much this. EA does pre-orders through Origin as well. Pre-orders are the new "thing" for digital content. I think GW is just jumping on the bandwagon. In the case of this, though, GW doesn't get a dime until release, because Apple does not charge you until the content is delivered on the release date.

This is marketing, people. It drums up excitement. GW is not dumb, nor are they inept or non-sensical. They wouldn't be the biggest minatures company if they didn't know a thing or two about selling product. I can guarantee you that outside of the microcosm or wargaming that is Dakka, there are thousands of Tau players that hit that pre-order button as soon as it was available. Doesn't always make sense, but it works.

All of that aside, I am highly excited about this. Reading through the previews just made me want it even more, and I did indeed pre-order the supplement. $40 isn't bad, especially when you consider that it's pretty much the same size as the Codex (according to the equivalent print page count).

Someone said on Warseer that the hardcopy was being held back to October, no idea how accurate that is and/or why. Seems to make little sense to me if correct.

It's kinda weird how EA and GW seem to share so many policies.

 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
Someone said on Warseer that the hardcopy was being held back to October, no idea how accurate that is and/or why. Seems to make little sense to me if correct.

It may depend on where they are being printed and how soon after being finished they are putting it out, with the current release schedule they're printing more than they used to do even allowing for them seeming to forget Fantasy almost completely)

It could be they just can't get enough printed (and distributed world wide) fast enough to release the hard copy before October

It could be they want to see the sales numbers for the digital version going first

or there might be 'Deep and Sinister' reasons (cue spooky music & conspiracy theories)

 paulson games wrote:
One of many reasons why I don't use steam. It makes no sense to pre-order digital items as most pre-orders don't offer any pricebreaks or incentive. Why give a company money in advance when you will get the product at the same time as everybody else? I have better things to do with my money then to let GW sit on it for a month.

Actually... pre-ordering on steam usually has a 10-15% price break.


On topic:


Has anyone figured out yet if this will be available physically ? I don't use smart phones or tablets (i know, i'm a luddite, but i don't believe in getting yet another two devices that require near yearly upgrading, on top of a monthly bill... ), so a desktop digital or physical version are the options i'm looking for.

Thanks to anyone who can point me towards confirmation.

Haight wrote:


Thanks to anyone who can point me towards confirmation.

If you're looking for confirmation, you won't get it until it goes up for pre-order on GW's site. Anything else is a rumor, no matter how good or accurate the person has been in the past.

That said, rumors are saying October for the physical version.

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:

 Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:
Someone said on Warseer that the hardcopy was being held back to October, no idea how accurate that is and/or why. Seems to make little sense to me if correct.

It may depend on where they are being printed and how soon after being finished they are putting it out, with the current release schedule they're printing more than they used to do even allowing for them seeming to forget Fantasy almost completely)

It could be they just can't get enough printed (and distributed world wide) fast enough to release the hard copy before October

It could be they want to see the sales numbers for the digital version going first

or there might be 'Deep and Sinister' reasons (cue spooky music & conspiracy theories)

I don't think it's anything deep and sinister. I think that GW is pushing themselves to the limit when it comes to pushing out products, and they can't get their book releases to the printer fast enough. If they have a finished product, digital distribution is far simpler, especially when you don't have to rely on your own distribution system. That's why I think it was a very wise decision for them to use the iTunes marketplace for their first foray into digital content. I'm not going to get into the whole Apple versus Android argument or the merits and flaws of the platforms, because when it comes down to it, the iTunes is much more established, and has far more volume than Google's marketplace. It just makes sense to use the largest digital distribution platform in the world to distribute your first digital product.

Obviously we see that GW has now expanded beyond iTunes, and all of the Apple naysayers can breate their collective sighs of relief that we have cross-platform digital products. This is a good thing for GW, and it will be a good thing for those of us that play GW's games. But, I do forsee this model of supplements being released digitally weeks, if not months, before physical products come out. I don't think it will really hurt their sales, because these supplements are more niche products than mainstream products (not all Tau players will have any interest in Farsight's army, for example). I also feel that many folks will begin to eschew the hardback books/codexes because they can have a very efficient and streamlined library all contained within one digital device.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Spoiler:

I really like how everything looks like standard art with a red recolor. Really adds to the feeling that it's worth being seperate from the main codex.

 paulson games wrote:
I find it wierd that they are doing pre-orders for a digital product, it's not like they need to get a product count so they can pile up inventory in a warehouse.

Its a digital product which is unlimted in quantity and takes no space. Taking money upfront and making people wait for a digital download is just another silly thing that shows GW is total fail when it comes to the internet.

iTunes must be a huge Internet fail too.

People really will find any reason to complain when it comes to GW.

Also, the iTunes version isn't releasing in August. It says July 20th just like on the black library website.

I'd like a digital (non-iOS) copy of the codex as well...Not to complain but releasing it for alternative formats at the same time as the supplement would have made sense, like with the Eldar books...

They are releasing both at the same time. BL is selling the standard digital to release on 7-20 and ITunes is selling the apple version to be released on 7-20. The only format not out on 7-20 will be standard print.

 Hulksmash wrote:
They are releasing both at the same time. BL is selling the standard digital to release on 7-20 and ITunes is selling the apple version to be released on 7-20. The only format not out on 7-20 will be standard print.

I think you misunderstood me, I would like a non-iOS version of the codex. This supplement is all well and good but I'd like a digital copy of the codex as well; currently, Eldar is the only ebook codex that's listed on their site..

http://www.blacklibrary.com/games-workshop-digital-editions/Codex

Ah, I did in fact misunderstand. I'm sure they'll get around to it. They've got the rulebook now and will likely go back and start releasing non-iOS of the codexes to match the iTunes offerings.

I'm just glad they seem to be getting into the habit of releasing them together (i.e. Eldar Codex, Tau Supplement) which is good since I don't do iPad.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Ah, I did in fact misunderstand. I'm sure they'll get around to it. They've got the rulebook now and will likely go back and start releasing non-iOS of the codexes to match the iTunes offerings.

I'm just glad they seem to be getting into the habit of releasing them together (i.e. Eldar Codex, Tau Supplement) which is good since I don't do iPad.

I feel the same way. I have an iPad for work but don't think the product justifies the price. I think I'm a bit strange in that I certainly have the money to purchase an iPad but don't like the closed ecosystem that is all things iOS. That said, I do wish apple would offer the iBook app on Google Play because I do like the auto-update function that keeps the digital products up to date with FAQs/Errata... Ah well, I guess I can't have it all.

The site says October 20th for the Hardcopy.

The Farsight fluff was slightly expanded in the Codex. Now we will see if the Farsight Enclave is indeed the "Chaos Tau" or the "finally free from ethereal oppression" faction some claim it to be.

from the sample pages, Kroot, it looks like the Enclave is Ethereal free, not Chaos Tau...

cheers
jah

Reading the excerpted pages, the section entitled "Tendrils of Doubt" describes O'Shovah realizing that the enclaves were functioning well on their own without Ethereal oversight, except for the factor of poor morale (from the deaths of the 3 Ethereals that had originally accompanied their expedition). This combined with his earlier realization about the warp, daemons, and the potential of the warp (such as warp travel like the Imperium uses) and the knowledge the Ethereals had kept the knowledge away from the general Tau population.

My speculation is that O'Shovah concludes the Ethereals have become a tyrannical class keeping the Tau in ignorance in order to maintain their tight grip on power, and that the other castes can function without the Ethereals once they break free of their indoctrination. I don't like the whole "Chaos made me do it" excuse to suddenly turn individuals into cackling villainous versions of their former selves. An ideological epiphany and rebellion led by true believers in the cause is much more realistic and nuanced, allowing players to agree or disagree with the cause themselves, and allowing the individual Tau to remain deciders of their own fate rather than being coerced by outside forces like daemonic possession or dark artifacts.

I call it the "Freedom to massacre anyone you want without fear of punishment"