Still disgusted at the hypocrisy from some people regarding this announcement, especially when certain dakka members swore blood oaths never to buy GW stuff ever again.
If people want to buy GW stuff and enjoy their stuff, that is their God given right, but please do me a favour:
Months down the line, when GW screw somebody else over a la chapterhouse, or ditch one of these games (again) please don't whine about it on dakka.
You'll get zero sympathy from me.
Well, it's kind of like a hopeful dream for a bunch of people that got brushed off by GW.
I swore off GW models for years, and then picked up a bunch of Empire stuff second hand for a KoW army (second one will be fully Mantic, though).
And, playing devil's advocate here, what happens if they smash the ball out of the park on these? What if FW's team is enough old-school GW to keep the rules mostly intact, and offer the minis at an acceptable (not great, but acceptable) price?
I don't think that'll happen, though. The only reason why the HH game sold so well is because it's cheap compared to the insane FW prices. And you can't tell me the models on the market nowadays, like all the various teams for Blood Bowl, aren't better than what GW offer, or would cost less.
I'm just struggling to understand the mentality of some people regarding this 'announcement.'
You have two option when it comes to buying mini wargames stuff these days.
1) GW, a company that treats customers and retailers like dirt, churns out rubbish rule sets, over-priced models and has a track record of not giving two hoots about the gaming community.
2) Various companies that listen to their customers, accept feedback, write great rule sets, sell models at a reasonable price, and bend over backwards to work with retailers and the gaming community.
And dakka's reaction? Option 1! Take my money GW. Take my money!!!
A massive WTF is going on here!!!
The only hypocrisy here is from those who bashed GW while continuing to hand them cash every week.
Nearly any company of notable size behaves badly in some form or other if you look hard enough. If that's your sole metric for who you give your custom, you'll have a hard time feeding yourself, clothing yourself, getting well if you get sick, communicating with anyone that isn't in the same room as you etc etc. Not to diminish the reprehensible behaviour of any company, but anyone criticising GWsolelyfor their bad behaviour is, in the majority of cases, likely supporting someone else who is guilty of far greater sins, possibly even in the process of posting a GW bashing post.
So, if one removes the, sadly fairly typical, bad corporate behaviour from the equation, the core argument you're left with is "GW does not a product that represents sufficient value of quality to justify the price." Which is my own personal angle. If that changes, then so does my viewpoint.
Plenty of alternatives out there when is comes to ethical choices regarding banking, food, clothes etc etc
The co-op bank is a good alternative to the big banks.
Plenty of food choices out there if you don't like ASDA or Tesco.
Up here in Scotland, Coca Cola is not the number one drink (only country in the world where that's the case)
and as far as our hobby goes, dozens of great alternatives to GW.
George Spiggott wrote: A lot of the minis for these game were metal. What are GW going to make them out of now? What are they currently using for non plastic kits?
Unless they actively reduce prices for The Hobbit I can see Hobbit style pricing being standard across the board.
This is the new FW, expect mass use models in plastic, and lower volume in resin.
The Chinese are already doing the old metal BFG in resin, and they work well, so I understand.
Plenty of alternatives out there when is comes to ethical choices regarding banking, food, clothes etc etc
The co-op bank is a good alternative to the big banks.
Plenty of food choices out there if you don't like ASDA or Tesco.
Up here in Scotland, Coca Cola is not the number one drink (only country in the world where that's the case)
and as far as our hobby goes, dozens of great alternatives to GW.
The Co-Op? I seem to recall the Chief Executive resigning under a cloud a little while back, I'm pretty sure that Coke isn't the top selling drink in Scotland on moral grounds and I doubt more than a tiny percentage of people trawl around all the various grocers, butchers etc unless they're looking for something niche.
Either way, the presence of alternatives isn't my point, my point is that the key source of objection for most people is that GW wasn't making a product they wanted at a price they felt was reasonable, if that changes, expect people's attitudes to as well.
Imperator in resin would still be cheaper than current ebay prices.
Same for the BFG stuff. In fact, given the hassle involved in those big metal ships on the flying bases, resin is probably a better option all round.
I still play my Necromunda game, I also have an unopened gorkamorka and a complete heroquest. I suspect i'll buy models as they are released, I doubt I'll be buying complete games, I like the rules as they were, and have little faith current rules people could improve them.
With warmaster, I have no faith at all, its the finest ruleset GW ever produced, and likely will ever produce. I just want some modern models to play it with.
George Spiggott wrote: A lot of the minis for these game were metal. What are GW going to make them out of now? What are they currently using for non plastic kits?
Unless they actively reduce prices for The Hobbit I can see Hobbit style pricing being standard across the board.
This is the new FW, expect mass use models in plastic, and lower volume in resin.
The Chinese are already doing the old metal BFG in resin, and they work well, so I understand.
Yeah, don't forget all the original armies for Epic had plastic covering the basic troops and APCs/Tanks all on a sprue not much bigger than the single character models you get for 40k these days. GW have nearly 20 years development on that now too. Seems logical that this would be the starting point with resin specialist vehicle ala what FW were making up until 3 years ago.
George Spiggott wrote: A lot of the minis for these game were metal. What are GW going to make them out of now? What are they currently using for non plastic kits?
Unless they actively reduce prices for The Hobbit I can see Hobbit style pricing being standard across the board.
This is the new FW, expect mass use models in plastic, and lower volume in resin.
The Chinese are already doing the old metal BFG in resin, and they work well, so I understand.
Yeah, don't forget all the original armies for Epic had plastic covering the basic troops and APCs/Tanks all on a sprue not much bigger than the single character models you get for 40k these days. GW have nearly 20 years development on that now too. Seems logical that this would be the starting point with resin specialist vehicle ala what FW were making up until 3 years ago.
What was battlefleet gothic? Was it a space based game with fleets of ships? If so and they brought out top quality plastic eldar corsairs ships I'd be very interested in a game like that.
They could even come up with a ruleset that would allow you to play a 40k game alongside it and it would represent a battle going on down on the planet whilst fleets were engaged above the planet. You could make a very cool version of planetstrike doing that!
ColdSadHungry wrote: What was battlefleet gothic? Was it a space based game with fleets of ships? If so and they brought out top quality plastic eldar corsairs ships I'd be very interested in a game like that.
They could even come up with a ruleset that would allow you to play a 40k game alongside it and it would represent a battle going on down on the planet whilst fleets were engaged above the planet. You could make a very cool version of planetstrike doing that!
Yep that was all there, corsairs and craftworld Eldar. BFG: Invasion was a supplement produced to do some combined actions.
Recently, I've finished a campaign that combined BFG, Aeronautica: Imperialis, Epic, 40k and Zone Mortalis in various guises to do a full planetary invasion. Bloody wicked fun!
First of all, I'll believe this when it shows up on the GW webstore or get an official email announcement...
Second, this is just a way for them to retire the LotR/Hobbit line without 'technically' retiring it. Don't think this supposed 'new' specialist games studio will get any substantial funding...much like the 'old' specialist games studio.
Third, who in their right mind wants GW to write or update any of these great old games that have been polished and refined by the greater gaming community that has continued to play them since GW threw them all out with the bathwater the first time?!
Look what GW has done to their 'core' games recently. Warhammer was flogged and left bleeding in a seedy back alley, only to be replaced with Age of Sigmarines which has a laughable set of rules..and 40k is a convoluted, bloated mess...each new army update invalidating most people's current collections, and designing formations with 3 of every new $100 kit that make the army competitive again.
Seriously, if the game rules are being designed by the marketing team, I certainly don't want anything to do with them any more...
The community versions of the great old games are doing really well, Yakromunda and NetEpic come to mind. There's even some great 'not' GW minis out there on independent sites and shapeways for these games.
The only good thing about this, should it be true, is that there 'may' be new models...or at the very least, re-released models that have gone out of print....but even then, there are so many minis that comprise the libraries of each of those games (even if they just stick to the ones on that list)...there is no way they could adequately support any one of them enough without throwing some serious money and people at it...which just isnt going to happen.
I know a lot of this is hyperbole, but I truly feel this is too little, too late from a slowly fading curmudgeon, who has consistently forsaken the masses that got them to where they once were...the greatest miniature games company in the world.
It IS an official announcement, the GW store FB pages is where the info is coming from!
GW isn't re-writing the rules, if anyone is rewriting the rules it'll be the new independent studio, a la like FW already is, and most people are happy with what they're doing with 30K.
A half-assed, typo-ridden flyer from a FB page in Australia is the lead in announcing a major new division for the largest miniatures company in the world? And some of you are jumping up and down as if the company has finally turned over a new leaf? Your faith in this going well baffles me. This is business as usual, and it will end in tears and rage.
Games Workshop: Peterborough
1 hr · King's Lynn, United Kingdom ·
ITS ALL TRUE ........ WELL BITS OF IT ANYWAY!
So I've been e-mailing most of the day and here - hopefully is the end to the rumours!
There is a LONG TERM (at least 6 months likely more) investment into bringing back some of our classic beloved games from Specialist Games. This will NOT be falling under the auspice of the Games Workshop side of the business, but linked up with Forgeworld instead. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WORD on a timescale or indeed, which specialist games may be looked at, whether they will be given a rejig or anything of that nature.
I stress this is a while in the future - the team to oversee the project has not even been assembled!
That is the offical message I have now recieved!
That said maybe it would be no bad thing to THINK about which citdel minis would make great gangmembers etc.
Yeah, no. Single character models like that Belial are nice to have from other sources, no one (Recasters excluded) offers a full range of "that" Space Marine look (while Anvil has nice bits, the whole models just don't do it for me).
So, the things they shouldn't keep secret like new releases: one week advance notice. A new company division that doesn't even exist and has no products to show for months: shoddy FB announcement.
No one is doubting this isn't happening, just some of us can't understand the bubbly enthusiasm for the oncoming headlights.
This Specialist Games thing is happening. It is not a secret within GW as of right now. An internal "Vox Caster" company wide email discusses various aspects of it.
the_Armyman wrote: So, the things they shouldn't keep secret like new releases: one week advance notice. A new company division that doesn't even exist and has no products to show for months: shoddy FB announcement.
No one is doubting this isn't happening, just some of us can't understand the bubbly enthusiasm for the oncoming headlights.
How else do they do it?
They have no centralised social media, it wouldn't be appropriate for the website, because that's now "the web store" and this news isn't directly related to a new release.
The only other real option would have been via the app, and I'm guessing disseminating the info via the stores FB pages has a wider reach.
I can't understand the relentless doom mongering given the news that it's under the auspices of FW and NOT GW proper, but there you go.
Aye, epic has me if it returns, Heresy, modern 40K it doesn't matter.. been hankering for a battle with five warlords either side.. no way in hell I'm pulling that off in 40K.
the_Armyman wrote: So, the things they shouldn't keep secret like new releases: one week advance notice. A new company division that doesn't even exist and has no products to show for months: shoddy FB announcement.
No one is doubting this isn't happening, just some of us can't understand the bubbly enthusiasm for the oncoming headlights.
How else do they do it?
They have no centralised social media, it wouldn't be appropriate for the website, because that's now "the web store" and this news isn't directly related to a new release.
The only other real option would have been via the app, and I'm guessing disseminating the info via the stores FB pages has a wider reach.
I can't understand the relentless doom mongering given the news that it's under the auspices of FW and NOT GW proper, but there you go.
They have multiple websites and two printed publications. You really can't think of a better way they could have announced this? Really?
A universal release on the store facebook pages has the most reach. They do need to follow it up with announcement on the site, messages to independents, and in the white dwarf. All of that should happen but starting on the facebook pages is not a bad way to announce things with "more info to follow"
Ghaz wrote: Printed media has lead time. Its not instantaneous.
You don't think an announcement like this had any lead time? The CEO rolled out of bed this morning in the UK and bellowed "Specialist Games" and the Facebook admin in some Australian store heard it?
You're all entitled to be blindly giddy for the announcement. Some of us are also entitled to point out why this is likely not to turn out the way you want it to. GW's history is rife with poor-decisions and ham-fisted execution. Why do you expect this to end differently when it begins the same?
the_Armyman wrote: So, the things they shouldn't keep secret like new releases: one week advance notice. A new company division that doesn't even exist and has no products to show for months: shoddy FB announcement.
No one is doubting this isn't happening, just some of us can't understand the bubbly enthusiasm for the oncoming headlights.
Good to see I'm not the only one who seems to be smelling a lot of bull regarding this announcement.
the_Armyman wrote: So, the things they shouldn't keep secret like new releases: one week advance notice. A new company division that doesn't even exist and has no products to show for months: shoddy FB announcement.
No one is doubting this isn't happening, just some of us can't understand the bubbly enthusiasm for the oncoming headlights.
How else do they do it?
They have no centralised social media, it wouldn't be appropriate for the website, because that's now "the web store" and this news isn't directly related to a new release.
The only other real option would have been via the app, and I'm guessing disseminating the info via the stores FB pages has a wider reach.
I can't understand the relentless doom mongering given the news that it's under the auspices of FW and NOT GW proper, but there you go.
They have multiple webstores and two printed publications. You really can't think of a better way they could have announced this? Really?
FTFY
As a rule you don't get content on those sites unless it is directly relevant to new releases.
Criticise it all you like, I agree I'd have probably done it differently, but it doesn't make it less real and it doesn't make this line of criticism largely pointless.
Yeah, no. Single character models like that Belial are nice to have from other sources, no one (Recasters excluded) offers a full range of "that" Space Marine look (while Anvil has nice bits, the whole models just don't do it for me).
They still exist and as the only SGs with Marine infantry was in 6mm (which the Trouble Maker games stuff is a good match for) its also pretty irrelevant.
I can't understand the relentless doom mongering given the news that it's under the auspices of FW and NOT GW proper, but there you go.
Because at the end of the day, FW take their orders from a man who has demonstrably proven to be a complete and utter buffoon!
All of FW's good work can be instantly undone at a stroke if you know who makes a decision.
Not having a go at you personally but it's almost as if the finecast debacle, the chapterhouse shambles, the cluster feth that was the AOS pre-release, and the huge you to gamers and retaliers never happened.
GW wave epic 40k under people's noses and all is forgiven
Collective amnesia has befallen Dakka.
Two years down the line, when the inevitable happens, and GW are charging $100 for each BFG ship, and people are moaning about it, I'll be here to do a big massive, Nelson from the Simpson HA HA
Still disgusted at the hypocrisy from some people regarding this announcement, especially when certain dakka members swore blood oaths never to buy GW stuff ever again.
If people want to buy GW stuff and enjoy their stuff, that is their God given right, but please do me a favour:
Months down the line, when GW screw somebody else over a la chapterhouse, or ditch one of these games (again) please don't whine about it on dakka.
You'll get zero sympathy from me.
Well, it's kind of like a hopeful dream for a bunch of people that got brushed off by GW.
I swore off GW models for years, and then picked up a bunch of Empire stuff second hand for a KoW army (second one will be fully Mantic, though).
And, playing devil's advocate here, what happens if they smash the ball out of the park on these? What if FW's team is enough old-school GW to keep the rules mostly intact, and offer the minis at an acceptable (not great, but acceptable) price?
I'm happy for the wargaming newcomers (of which there are many) who will only buy something with a GW logo on the box. If Bloodbowl or Epic are re-released, then those people might finally get to play a decent wargame.
I also think that it's great news that GW are doing this, finally making their name more than an ironic reminder of what the company once was.
However, like Do_I_Not_Like_That, for me the ship has already sailed. A combination of having played them in the past and therefore having moved on, but also because of the things GW has done as a company that mean I wouldn't be comfortable buying their products. Sure, they are angels when compared to the likes of Nike, Nestle etc. in the wider business world. But when compared to the rest of the industry their behaviour has been fething atrocious, and has been for some years.
I would much rather that we see the industry continue to grow and GW shink a little. Less of a monopoly means that the company would have to look after the fans a little (which is perhaps why we might see this SG line coming about again actually).
Kilkrazy wrote: Massive news, and a clear tacit admission that their strategy of the past 10 years was a bad one.
Is it though? If taken completely at face value, it's just saying that they're (basically) giving Forge World more room to produce smaller side games. That's a good idea, to be sure, but hardly an admission of anything. At worst, this whole story is based on a misunderstanding by a store manager, and it's been shown time and time again that GW store managers know less than we do when it comes to news regarding their own company.
I can't understand the relentless doom mongering given the news that it's under the auspices of FW and NOT GW proper, but there you go.
Because at the end of the day, FW take their orders from a man who has demonstrably proven to be a complete and utter buffoon!
All of FW's good work can be instantly undone at a stroke if you know who makes a decision.
That's not quite how it works, and the buffoon is no longer in day to day charge, which is probably largely why this is happening. FW have been pretty consistent in adhering to the values that old guard GW customers prize, there absolutely no foundation in believing that will change.
Not having a go at you personally but it's almost as if the finecast debacle, the chapterhouse shambles, the cluster feth that was the AOS pre-release, and the huge you to gamers and retaliers never happened.
GW wave epic 40k under people's noses and all is forgiven
Collective amnesia has befallen Dakka.
No, no it hasn't.
Once I'd seen the quality of Finecast for myself, I didn't buy any more. I supported Nick financially, and I haven't touched AOS.
I haven't forgotten any of it, but this isn't that. You reward positive behaviour, you punish bad. If you continue to punish any entity when it tries to correct mistakes, then that's just holding a grudge.
Trust me, if they feth this up then I'll be quite happy to stick the knife in, but for now I'm happy to take the information at face value and be cautiously optimistic.
Two years down the line, when the inevitable happens, and GW are charging $100 for each BFG ship, and people are moaning about it, I'll be here to do a big massive, Nelson from the Simpson HA HA
I look forward to that day
With any luck the intervening time will allow you to grow as a person and appreciate this for a petty and futile thing to be doing.
Honestly I'm wondering if this is one of the first steps by the new CEO. Most of the stuff coming out now or since he took over was already in the pipeline but this could be his first real step in making changes. Maybe he also had something to do with the price drop on the HH box since I'm not the only one who wouldn't have bought two at the original price point but will at the new one.
Who knows. I'm tentatively optimistic. While I do play other games I have a deep and abiding love for the 40k universe (and 30k now too). So more games in this vein are good. I also wouldn't mind seeing Warmaster come back but that's one that I never got a chance to play. I just think Warmaster might encompass the "massive" battles of AoS much better than the game itself. Plus Fantasy battle at 10mm would be great and with GW's name on it would be more likely to catch on.
While I'm sure people who have played them in the past will be seen as a 'bonus' if they are attacted to any of these reboots
I suspect the new 'specialist team' at foregworld is still going to be more interested in new players (perhaps moving on from GW rather than totally new, but not the hoary old guard who have been playing or collecting since the games originally came out)
but it will still be good to see this happening (even back in the 'glory days' most people took part for a few years and then moved on to booze, girls and higher education or jobs)
Kilkrazy wrote: Massive news, and a clear tacit admission that their strategy of the past 10 years was a bad one.
If I'm not mistaken, GW's financial report will be out again soon. Do you think that this 'news' being released at this time is a coincidence?
Nah, not for months, the final quarter of the interim statement hasn't even closed yet. I mean, of course, things could be so terrible that this could have been cobbled together in short order so in January when the interim statement comes out they can go "look, this will make it all better!" but in all likelihood you're just looking too hard for a conspiracy.
However, like Do_I_Not_Like_That, for me the ship has already sailed. A combination of having played them in the past and therefore having moved on, but also because of the things GW has done as a company that mean I wouldn't be comfortable buying their products. Sure, they are angels when compared to the likes of Nike, Nestle etc. in the wider business world. But when compared to the rest of the industry their behaviour has been fething atrocious, and has been for some years.
I would much rather that we see the industry continue to grow and GW shink a little. Less of a monopoly means that the company would have to look after the fans a little (which is perhaps why we might see this SG line coming about again actually).
Oh, I agree. Like I said, I picked up some $300 of Empire from stores/second hand retailers to make a KoW army, but that's a full 2000 list and I'm not planning on changing it anytime soon.
There was a time when I would have bought into Epic: Armageddon or BFG, and I've got teams for Orcs and Humans in Blood Bowl. But the only reason to get back into specialist games is if you want a 40k/Fantasy experience. Other companies do the rules better, do the miniatures better, and do customer interaction better.
But I'll hold off judgement, because for all we know FW might hit this out of the park. But, again, what made the Specialist Games range so endearing is their rules, developed by people who are no longer with the company. How do we know that this isn't the same kind of effort to "reboot" old franchises that got us AoS out of WHFB?
I can't understand the relentless doom mongering given the news that it's under the auspices of FW and NOT GW proper, but there you go.
Because at the end of the day, FW take their orders from a man who has demonstrably proven to be a complete and utter buffoon!
All of FW's good work can be instantly undone at a stroke if you know who makes a decision.
Not having a go at you personally but it's almost as if the finecast debacle, the chapterhouse shambles, the cluster feth that was the AOS pre-release, and the huge you to gamers and retaliers never happened.
GW wave epic 40k under people's noses and all is forgiven
Collective amnesia has befallen Dakka.
Two years down the line, when the inevitable happens, and GW are charging $100 for each BFG ship, and people are moaning about it, I'll be here to do a big massive, Nelson from the Simpson HA HA
I look forward to that day
I think it's less of a collective forgiveness and more of optimism that this is the first step in the right direction. I like the idea of this, though I have no plans to buy the new games as soon as they come out until I see what it's all about. But, I love the 40k universe, I'd like to have a Necron fleet, and the idea of small scale skirmish games that take place in that same universe is appealing to me.
There have been rumblings of big GW changes coming for this past year or so. If it turns out to be true and this is the first step towards a less crappy company, I'll gladly embrace it. Otherwise, well, then it's no change and I'll just buy what I like when I have the dosh.
If they are just re-releasing the old rules repackaged.. I actually still have all of that. If they are just re-releasing old models... yeah.. I have a ton of Mordheim, Spacehulk, Necromunda, Epic, BFG, even Gorkamorka still (heck, I have everything for Gorkamorka but a few of the splat books).
The thing with most of the specialist games is, they can be repackaged with updated models, some modernization of the activation and campaign systems, and packaged more as self-contained games that don't require a lot of periphery products that are more expensive for GW to maintain. That would fall in line with the current model. For example: Release Necromunda - Boxed game. Some terrain, 2 base gangs with a few options and hopefully pegged arms for ease of equipment change. X-pac 1 battle for the archeotech - More terrain, counters, 2 more gangs. X-pac 2 - The arenas, 1 gang and a bunch of free agents.. more terrain, etc. They can keep costs down like this and release sets like that stormclaw or whatever set with the Orks vs Space Wolves. No hard to find blisters of singles, no trickled out characters, just releases. If they want, follow it up with individual gangs but at that point it's just gravy.
It's great that they want to revitalize these games especially if they can generate the same enthusiasm from their studio that FW has for HH. If they can't GW might kill it again.
The question is whether they will run more like the main GW studio or the FW studio.
I can't understand the relentless doom mongering given the news that it's under the auspices of FW and NOT GW proper, but there you go.
Because at the end of the day, FW take their orders from a man who has demonstrably proven to be a complete and utter buffoon!
All of FW's good work can be instantly undone at a stroke if you know who makes a decision.
That's not quite how it works, and the buffoon is no longer in day to day charge, which is probably largely why this is happening. FW have been pretty consistent in adhering to the values that old guard GW customers prize, there absolutely no foundation in believing that will change.
Not having a go at you personally but it's almost as if the finecast debacle, the chapterhouse shambles, the cluster feth that was the AOS pre-release, and the huge you to gamers and retaliers never happened.
GW wave epic 40k under people's noses and all is forgiven
Collective amnesia has befallen Dakka.
No, no it hasn't.
Once I'd seen the quality of Finecast for myself, I didn't buy any more. I supported Nick financially, and I haven't touched AOS.
I haven't forgotten any of it, but this isn't that. You reward positive behaviour, you punish bad. If you continue to punish any entity when it tries to correct mistakes, then that's just holding a grudge.
Trust me, if they feth this up then I'll be quite happy to stick the knife in, but for now I'm happy to take the information at face value and be cautiously optimistic.
Two years down the line, when the inevitable happens, and GW are charging $100 for each BFG ship, and people are moaning about it, I'll be here to do a big massive, Nelson from the Simpson HA HA
I look forward to that day
With any luck the intervening time will allow you to grow as a person and appreciate this for a petty and futile thing to be doing.
Wade through 400+ pages of the chapterhouse thread and then come back to me and tell me about being petty and futile.
I can't understand the relentless doom mongering given the news that it's under the auspices of FW and NOT GW proper, but there you go.
Because at the end of the day, FW take their orders from a man who has demonstrably proven to be a complete and utter buffoon!
All of FW's good work can be instantly undone at a stroke if you know who makes a decision.
That's not quite how it works, and the buffoon is no longer in day to day charge, which is probably largely why this is happening. FW have been pretty consistent in adhering to the values that old guard GW customers prize, there absolutely no foundation in believing that will change.
Not having a go at you personally but it's almost as if the finecast debacle, the chapterhouse shambles, the cluster feth that was the AOS pre-release, and the huge you to gamers and retaliers never happened.
GW wave epic 40k under people's noses and all is forgiven
Collective amnesia has befallen Dakka.
No, no it hasn't.
Once I'd seen the quality of Finecast for myself, I didn't buy any more. I supported Nick financially, and I haven't touched AOS.
I haven't forgotten any of it, but this isn't that. You reward positive behaviour, you punish bad. If you continue to punish any entity when it tries to correct mistakes, then that's just holding a grudge.
Trust me, if they feth this up then I'll be quite happy to stick the knife in, but for now I'm happy to take the information at face value and be cautiously optimistic.
Two years down the line, when the inevitable happens, and GW are charging $100 for each BFG ship, and people are moaning about it, I'll be here to do a big massive, Nelson from the Simpson HA HA
I look forward to that day
With any luck the intervening time will allow you to grow as a person and appreciate this for a petty and futile thing to be doing.
Wade through 400+ pages of the chapterhouse thread and then come back to me and tell me about being petty and futile.
The thread I posted in regularly you mean?
There's no need, but, once again, people, in the main, don't seem to object to that sort of behaviour as much, it's a crap product for too much money that bothers them.
Besides, GW being a douche has no bearing on you laughing at fellow hobbyists because their optimism was ill founded.
As far as I'm concerned, this is as clear as an admission of failure that you're ever likely to see.
GW are basically saying: remember those great games we used to make. We're bringing them out again. Some people think this is GW listening to their customers. It is no such thing - it is flogging a dead horse on a galactic scale. With this and HH (which is basically getting people to but space marines twice) GW have hit the smash in case of emergency button.
They've ran out of ideas.
The great GW game designers of yesteryear are gone. The fun and wackiness that was WD and citadel journal, has been purged.
GW is run by a man who thought that pokemon was a passing fad. Years later, it still sells more than GW.
I suspect the pokemon owners are snorting cocaine off the backs of prostitutes and setting fire to 100 dollar bills!
Kilkrazy wrote: Massive news, and a clear tacit admission that their strategy of the past 10 years was a bad one.
If I'm not mistaken, GW's financial report will be out again soon. Do you think that this 'news' being released at this time is a coincidence?
I don't think it's a coincidence at all. We haven't seen anything but anecdotal evidence that AoS isn't doing well...but from what I am noticing, I have a pretty solid hunch that it has been an utter and complete failure. What few people they had left playing WHFB were thrown under the bus, and I am willing to bet even fewer people are currently collecting and playing AoS. Our local group was in the middle of a Mighty Empires map campaign with 10 plus players....and when AoS hit, people were so underwhelmed the campaign peetered out. I haven't seen a game of Warhammer played since...AoS or otherwise. A few people have been playing around with Kings of War though.
I predicted this, as it felt way too much like the crap that Rackham pulled when they killed their Confrontation game (and gorgeous metal minis line) to bring out Age of Ragnarok (wow, even the name is eerily similar).
They are likely scrambling to come up with something to drastically increase sales...or at least throw something out there as 'the plan' to increase sales revenue...and maybe they think this is it. I just don't see how they are going to put a positive spin on the AoS numbers to appease the shareholders. And I still don't see how they can mobilize all of these specialist games in any meaningful way that would adequately support any single one of them without draining resources (cash and manpower) significantly from the rest of their organization.
Heck, if they want to start selling minis for Epic, BFG, Necromunda, etc, I'll be the first in line to buy them...I'm just not seeing how this is going to work out the way many posters in here think (or hope) it will.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: As far as I'm concerned, this is as clear as an admission of failure that you're ever likely to see.
GW are basically saying: remember those great games we used to make. We're bringing them out again. Some people think this is GW listening to their customers. It is no such thing - it is flogging a dead horse on a galactic scale. With this and HH (which is basically getting people to but space marines twice) GW have hit the smash in case of emergency button.
They've ran out of ideas.
The great GW game designers of yesteryear are gone. The fun and wackiness that was WD and citadel journal, has been purged.
GW is run by a man who thought that pokemon was a passing fad. Years later, it still sells more than GW.
I suspect the pokemon owners are snorting cocaine off the backs of prostitutes and setting fire to 100 dollar bills!
So what's inherently wrong with admitting you've made a mistake and trying to put it right?
Hubris has been the hallmark of modern GW, and even a tiny hint that they're over that and prepared to move forward is cause for optimism.
I can't understand the relentless doom mongering given the news that it's under the auspices of FW and NOT GW proper, but there you go.
Because at the end of the day, FW take their orders from a man who has demonstrably proven to be a complete and utter buffoon!
All of FW's good work can be instantly undone at a stroke if you know who makes a decision.
That's not quite how it works, and the buffoon is no longer in day to day charge, which is probably largely why this is happening. FW have been pretty consistent in adhering to the values that old guard GW customers prize, there absolutely no foundation in believing that will change.
Not having a go at you personally but it's almost as if the finecast debacle, the chapterhouse shambles, the cluster feth that was the AOS pre-release, and the huge you to gamers and retaliers never happened.
GW wave epic 40k under people's noses and all is forgiven
Collective amnesia has befallen Dakka.
No, no it hasn't.
Once I'd seen the quality of Finecast for myself, I didn't buy any more. I supported Nick financially, and I haven't touched AOS.
I haven't forgotten any of it, but this isn't that. You reward positive behaviour, you punish bad. If you continue to punish any entity when it tries to correct mistakes, then that's just holding a grudge.
Trust me, if they feth this up then I'll be quite happy to stick the knife in, but for now I'm happy to take the information at face value and be cautiously optimistic.
Two years down the line, when the inevitable happens, and GW are charging $100 for each BFG ship, and people are moaning about it, I'll be here to do a big massive, Nelson from the Simpson HA HA
I look forward to that day
With any luck the intervening time will allow you to grow as a person and appreciate this for a petty and futile thing to be doing.
Wade through 400+ pages of the chapterhouse thread and then come back to me and tell me about being petty and futile.
The thread I posted in regularly you mean?
There's no need, but, once again, people, in the main, don't seem to object to that sort of behaviour as much, it's a crap product for too much money that bothers them.
Besides, GW being a douche has no bearing on you laughing at fellow hobbyists because their optimism was ill founded.
If people are going to put their faith in a company run by people who don't know even the difference between a patent and copyright, then, well...
Alan Merritt, supposed 'head' of GW's intellectual property embarrassed himself during that trial. See above for my views on Kirby.
From personal experience, Nick isn't a saint. Let's not pretend the CHS case was good vs evil, especially since I don't feel like getting a warning for being off-topic.
GW is a business. They make games. They aren't my friend. They aren't someone I pal around with, smoking cigars, watching the game, having a drink. If I like their games, I'll play them. I don't care about what they've done, I'm not trying to marry them.. I care about what they are doing and what they will do.
EDIT: Sorry RiTides - The time it took me to post this there were like 8 new posts..
This Specialist Games thing is happening. It is not a secret within GW as of right now. An internal "Vox Caster" company wide email discusses various aspects of it.
MLaw wrote: I care about what they are doing and what they will do.
Which is alright, I guess. If you want to ignore the fact that they abandoned these games when they thought they could get away with it, and are only now coming back in times of apparent dire straights.
As for what they are doing, well, it's nothing apart from, again, a badly photo-shopped image and hearsay.
As for what they will do, they (apparently, if the hearsay is to be believed) haven't even assembled the team that'll make this a reality. And we don't know what the format of any of these games will be.
Thanks judgedoug, updated the OP! Kept it grouped with your staff training quote which was at the end of it so people could see what you were referring to. This has all happened really fast! Although I know we won't see results from it too quickly, it is a very nice shift for GW.
What people really need is a release schedule, pictures of works in progress, a statement from Tom Kirby or some other high up confirming this etc etc etc
The GW website could announce this.
That's the way forward for GW.
Blood bowl, BFG, Necromunda et al are brilliant games. I have many a happy memory of playing them.
Younger dakka members deserve a chance to enjoy these games, and I hope for their sakes, this works out for them,
but until I see concrete evidence, similar to what I mentioned a few sentences ago, I would personally reserve judgement.
infinite_array wrote: As for what they will do, they (apparently, if the hearsay is to be believed) haven't even assembled the team that'll make this a reality. And we don't know what the format of any of these games will be.
Both of those statements are basically true.
It is just a recognition of the financial power of several dormant brands. The internal design team is still committed to 40k and AoS; this is an exploratory design team that will use these properties to make new games in new formats, not beholden to old rules or old miniatures.
Whoever has this job of starting up the specialist games again must have the best job in the world. Man, I would love to be in that position!
I really hope we get none "specialist games" GW small games coming back too. Like Warhammer Quest.
Warhammer Quest would be the best introduction to AoS as the ENTIRE Chaos, Death and Destruction ranges can be used as monsters and the Order heroes can all be used as heroes.
MLaw wrote: I care about what they are doing and what they will do.
Which is alright, I guess. If you want to ignore the fact that they abandoned these games when they thought they could get away with it, and are only now coming back in times of apparent dire straights.
As for what they are doing, well, it's nothing apart from, again, a badly photo-shopped image and hearsay.
As for what they will do, they (apparently, if the hearsay is to be believed) haven't even assembled the team that'll make this a reality. And we don't know what the format of any of these games will be.
Exactly. We need concrete evidence. Something that'll stand up to the light of day.
It is just a recognition of the financial power of several dormant brands. The internal design team is still committed to 40k and AoS; this is an exploratory design team that will use these properties to make new games in new formats, not beholden to old rules or old miniatures.
See! Right there! That's what's we need to watch out for.
Like I said, the only reason why Blood Bowl still has a worldwide tournament scene, an international community, and plenty of companies making miniatures for it is because of the strength of the rules. They're a fantastic blend of competitive simplicity and wacky humor. I can't see GW - either GW main or FW - improving on those rules with anything that they can do today. And I wonder how long the NAF will be allowed to exist if GW is bothering to resurrect Blood Bowl.
The same goes for the other Specialist Games, like Epic and Warmaster.
Commander Cain wrote: It's getting harder and harder to hate GW every day. We get a well priced HH game, two awesome looking video games, and now the promise of BFG and other stuff. Life is good...
It's pretty much this for me. I'm mad about 40k being wrecked and fantasy being blown up. But the HH stuff looks great. And you guys are getting specialist games back (I never got into them). I have KoW and older editions with friends for fantasy. So...I'm good.
From a logical point of view, we need to ask questions about the resources that could be committed to this project.
How many design team staff? Are they off the calibre of people like Rick Priestly or the other original designers?
Release schedule? I know that FW are separate, but AOS and 40k are the flagships, so when it comes to production, then it's likely specialist games will be low down the pecking order, just like last time.
Advertising: who's going to advertise it and where? Can you still buy WD anywhere?
Tournament scene/conventions: will these games make an appearance and be officially supported?
If I were going to be investing precious money in this, I would be looking for hard answers to these questions.
MLaw wrote: I care about what they are doing and what they will do.
Which is alright, I guess. If you want to ignore the fact that they abandoned these games when they thought they could get away with it, and are only now coming back in times of apparent dire straights.
As for what they are doing, well, it's nothing apart from, again, a badly photo-shopped image and hearsay.
As for what they will do, they (apparently, if the hearsay is to be believed) haven't even assembled the team that'll make this a reality. And we don't know what the format of any of these games will be.
I'm not understanding your point. Are you saying that I should mope about what used to be? Ignore what might be? Burn GW to the ground for bad business decisions? By comparison.. Apple made a LOT of poor business decisions, particularly in the 90s. They've presumably turned around (I'm not an Apple guy myself but it looks like they're doing alright). Personally, in my perfect world, GW has to be given room to make amends. That does not start with the things you've mentioned or anyone else has. It starts with them turning their back on the game side of their namesake. I wasn't introduced to GW through 40k or WHFB. I was a bright-eyed little boy who played a board game against crazy enemies I'd never imagined. That came with a copy of White Dwarf 0, which was full of all of these wild miniatures with outlandish paintjobs and articles about grown men getting together and having a blast playing these games. When I was a teen, I picked up a brand new copy of Mordheim. It was chock full of awesomeness. By that time, I had bought a Space Marine Sgt from a card shop that had a few GW models. I didn't even look at a 40k rulebook for another couple of years. So, for me.. GW has always been personified as those things that captured the imagination of a wayward youth. The demise of those things was in a way like the death of a childish notion. The illusion was broken and I have to say.. when they took the specialist range off the GW site.. that really is about the time I stopped buying. It wasn't a conscious decision, but it lines up now that I think about it. If they want to make amends.. they start there. Then, they make amends with the FLGS. Then, they bring back their events and sponsorships. If they want to drive down the prices somehow along the way fine. For me though, the demise of SG was the first and most unforgivable slight.
EDIT: For clarity - I mean Heroquest.. We got a copy when it was still new on the shelves and came with White Dwarf 0. I then, later bought Mordheim. People who weren't around through all of that might not have known the difference.
Pretty happy with this news. I don't have any interest in Epic or BFG (neither have ever appealed to me for some reason) but I've always fancied having a go at blood bowl plus I know at least one potential opponent for that, and Necromunda and Mordheim too. The fact that it's under FW control is good news too.
MLaw wrote: The demise of those things was in a way like the death of a childish notion. The illusion was broken and I have to say.. when they took the specialist range off the GW site.. that really is about the time I stopped buying. It wasn't a conscious decision, but it lines up now that I think about it. If they want to make amends.. they start there. Then, they make amends with the FLGS. Then, they bring back their events and sponsorships. If they want to drive down the prices somehow along the way fine. For me though, the demise of SG was the first and most unforgivable slight.
So, you don't care about what they've done... but you care about what they've done?
Also, holy crap, you're making some pretty generous leaps to conclusions. Specialist Games means support for independent retailers means the return of even and sponsorship?
ImAGeek wrote: Pretty happy with this news. I don't have any interest in Epic or BFG (neither have ever appealed to me for some reason) but I've always fancied having a go at blood bowl plus I know at least one potential opponent for that, and Necromunda and Mordheim too. The fact that it's under FW control is good news too.
And why aren't you playing those games now if you've always wanted to?
MLaw wrote: The demise of those things was in a way like the death of a childish notion. The illusion was broken and I have to say.. when they took the specialist range off the GW site.. that really is about the time I stopped buying. It wasn't a conscious decision, but it lines up now that I think about it. If they want to make amends.. they start there. Then, they make amends with the FLGS. Then, they bring back their events and sponsorships. If they want to drive down the prices somehow along the way fine. For me though, the demise of SG was the first and most unforgivable slight.
So, you don't care about what they've done... but you care about what they've done?
Also, holy crap, you're making some pretty generous leaps to conclusions. Specialist Games means support for independent retailers means the return of even and sponsorship?
ImAGeek wrote: Pretty happy with this news. I don't have any interest in Epic or BFG (neither have ever appealed to me for some reason) but I've always fancied having a go at blood bowl plus I know at least one potential opponent for that, and Necromunda and Mordheim too. The fact that it's under FW control is good news too.
And why aren't you playing those games now if you've always wanted to?
Not to be picky but it looks to me like he actually was stating that'd be the order in which he'd hope they make amends. Not that they are doing it. And that he considers the resurrection of Specialist Games to be the first step on the road to amends.
Hulksmash nailed it. That was the order I'd see them extend their collective olive branches.
EDIT: Also.. My decision making is not based on what they have done. That is separate from my feelings about GW. I am capable of stepping back and allowing them to move forward. I do feel like they have some fence-mending to do. However, I do not let that feeling prevent me from enjoying a game or product from a company. Especially when they're mid-stride on what I would consider the first step of said amends.
MLaw wrote: The demise of those things was in a way like the death of a childish notion. The illusion was broken and I have to say.. when they took the specialist range off the GW site.. that really is about the time I stopped buying. It wasn't a conscious decision, but it lines up now that I think about it. If they want to make amends.. they start there. Then, they make amends with the FLGS. Then, they bring back their events and sponsorships. If they want to drive down the prices somehow along the way fine. For me though, the demise of SG was the first and most unforgivable slight.
So, you don't care about what they've done... but you care about what they've done?
Also, holy crap, you're making some pretty generous leaps to conclusions. Specialist Games means support for independent retailers means the return of even and sponsorship?
ImAGeek wrote: Pretty happy with this news. I don't have any interest in Epic or BFG (neither have ever appealed to me for some reason) but I've always fancied having a go at blood bowl plus I know at least one potential opponent for that, and Necromunda and Mordheim too. The fact that it's under FW control is good news too.
And why aren't you playing those games now if you've always wanted to?
Because it's hard enough to find games near me that are actively supported sometimes let alone ones that aren't. Well I could probably find them but a bit far afield seeing as I don't drive and don't really have time to get the train everywhere. In the easily accessible area to me I haven't found really found anyone.
If the rumours are true and we're at least six months away from seeing any product then this really is a huge shift in direction for GW.
And it's one that will work. In less than a day I'm reconsidering some planned purchases from other companies to make sure I have some surplus cash around for when this stuff see's the light of day. If it does turn out to be a bust I can always just buy the stuff I had originally planned instead. But GW now have a good chance of getting hold of some of my money when they didn't yesterday.
In fact the only money I have spent on GW products in the last year has all been OP stuff from Ebay.
Incredible news! I can't wait to see what they come up with! AoS isn't for me but this really is intriguing, it will be interesting to see what sort of release schedule they can achieve with so many products needing attention.
Necromunda? Epic Armageddon? Before my time... That said.Yes! Please!
I'm giddy with excitement at the possibility, if anybody can pull this off in a big way it's gonna be Forgeworld.
Warhammer Forge might have been worth the sacrifice if this comes to pass!
Necros wrote: So.. think AoS will end up a specialist game, and they'll pull an oops and bring back regular Warhammer?
Can they really do that after replacing the Space Marine with a giant golden Sigmarine and plastered that Sigmar symbol under the Aquila?
I mean, it's one thing to try and resurrect a bunch of games that got swept under the rug years ago. It's another to try and reverse a publicly hung franchise.
Torpedoes are (...) designed to be capital ship killers and are massive, building sized ordnance. - From Update #8 on the DfCKS
DfC is VERY similar, maybe you should just take a look at it before dismissing it. DfC goes from fighter/bomber squadrons up to battleships.
IIRC the Scale of DfC is 1:15,000 and the largest ships are roughly up to 3km long, so they're not that much smaller than BFG Battleships (up to 4.5km). Considering 40ks "slight tendency" to oversize the everliving gak out of everything it's quite impressive that DfC comes that close in size.
BFG has been reconned in the FFG role playing books to 1:56,000 scale. Imperial cruisers are now 5km and battleships up to 7-8km and the big Heresy era ships up to 16km
The shock of GW not trying to hide something unsuccessfully and then annoceing it a week before launch is realy surprising. It's almost like they just decided they were going to do it, and then announce it right away.
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!! What's that you say GW haters??This is superb for table top games in general. The biggest player in the field reworking their top games. Giving them to the hugely hugely talented FW team is a superb idea. Necromunda and BFG??? I'm lost for words.
Great news. I hope they come up with Mordheim-ish rules for AoS minis in the AoS universe. Can't wait to see things progress. Love GW models and games and glad we'll have a wider range of options.
Stand alone boxes with add on packs is very, very the right way to go in my book. I have a lot of friends that would play 40k if it wasn't for the money/time investment, but it's much easier to convince them to just go halvsies with you on a box set.
It'll probably be something like 6 months before we see the first one (well, second if you count the 30k box as the first), but I'm happy about this.
Lockark wrote: The shock of GW not trying to hide something unsuccessfully and then annoceing it a week before launch is realy surprising. It's almost like they just decided they were going to do it, and then announce it right away.
Ah, but this is the Forgeworld team doing this and advertising, excitement and hyping building is their bread and butter!
The reference to "boxed games and standalone sets" at least indicates that it won't all be biennial blackbox affairs like Spacehulk or Dreadfleet.
DIfficult to know anything really and if the announcement has come this early then at least I've got 6 months to save up and see what the indications are.
Using BloodBowl as an example though, is there anything to stop GW simply 'reclaiming' the current living ruleset and publishing that?
Not a lawyer by any stretch, just curious.
And if they did do that, would that be 'better' or 'worse' than producing a whole new ruleset, because frankly they seem damned whichever they do.
coldgaming wrote: Great news. I hope they come up with Mordheim-ish rules for AoS minis in the AoS universe. Can't wait to see things progress. Love GW models and games and glad we'll have a wider range of options.
JamesY wrote: I knew there was a reason I started painting a new bloodbowl team...
Can't decide if I want to see a stormcast team or not.
*rolls up newspaper* No! Bad! Keep that Pound-store Planescape the hell away from my cherished childhood memories, you fiends!
Also goddamnit how am I going to force myself to be cynically detached for months? I'm already getting ideas for new projects.
And if they did do that, would that be 'better' or 'worse' than producing a whole new ruleset, because frankly they seem damned whichever they do.
Actually, just sticking the current rules (well, the current rules and all the old fluff) in a box with brand new, FW quality miniatures would probably be a smashing success.
Fango wrote: In all honesty though, if handled extremely well, this could save GW.
From what? Making quite not as much money as last year but still making 10% on £100m+?
Nah, this them realising they have capacity after LotRs and perhaps a realisation that there is a real desire for these titles, ergo money. Lots and lots of luverly money!
I have everything to gain from this too, as I still actively play BFG, Necromunda, Epic, and Man O War...
Please GW, don't feth this up....
Indeed.
Don't change any scales.
Don't change any forces except to add to them.
Do what you want with the rules cos I have all those, though if the were to be good then that's a bonus.
Guys, I was tossing out the idea of standalone games with expansion sets as a kind of wishlist.. that's not based on anything so please don't get your hearts set on that. If someone has heard that they are going that way please share.. I just don't want there to be confusion or think that I'm claiming to have heard that as a rumor or anything.
If they ever bring back Inquisitor (which isn't likely for a long time) I really hope it's 28mm scale. That would make the models much more appealing as they'd be applicable for 40k as well.
Huge fan of necromunda and I look forward to breaking out my 200+ bulkheads and cardboard terrain again besides basement games. Also excited for mordheim, but I never really got into the other games. My only concern is that they waited too long for this and while the games are beloved, I think they just won't stand up to other games such as infinity, frostgrave or the other hundreds of games that filled the gap of the years (has it been a decade yet????)
Market forces at work. If people bid ridiculously high at an auction, what can I do?
And in my defence, I spent hours painting them to a high standard. I also sold a fully painted Dreadfleet to some kid for his Christmas for £100, when it was retailing unpainted for around £70. Absolute steal and proof that I'm not entirely heartless.
It's typical for non-Scots in the UK to resent a Scot making some money
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Henshini wrote: I'll reserve my judgement for when I see what they do with the rules.
Very wise.
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Knockagh wrote: Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!! What's that you say GW haters??This is superb for table top games in general. The biggest player in the field reworking their top games. Giving them to the hugely hugely talented FW team is a superb idea. Necromunda and BFG??? I'm lost for words.
I wouldn't be so sure.
I'm surprised at how popular X-wing is, and with a new star wars film coming out...
A friend of mine has been ridiculing me for years for being a wargamer.
But as soon as he saw fully painted versions of his favourite star wars ships...well...lets just say he saw the light
GW can't compete with that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anybody want to buy Necromunda stuff?
There's been too much water under the bridge, too many kickstarters, and too many new companies doing a good job, for GW to think they can waltz in and act like it's the 90s again, just because they're re-releasing some old rulesets.
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Kilkrazy wrote: There's a new starter set for X-Wing featuring the black painted TIE Fighters from the new Star Wars film.
You'd be forgiven for thinking that FFG plan these things out.
Azreal13 wrote: There's no need, there's already perfectly good rulesets out in the wild, all we need is straightforward access to appropriate models.
Unless you're talking about fan edits, which I expect GW will explicitly ignore, all of the specialist games I've played(Mordheim, Necromunda and BFG) all have their faults and could use a 2.0. I'd be mildly disappointed if GW simply re-released the last version of the rules they published but I'd be really sad if they did something stupid like make a space marine gang for Necromunda.
Kickstarters have gone into a decline because of a number of disappointing projects, market oversaturation, etc.
GW can probably sell a good number of revised starter sets of games like Battle Fleet Gothic and Blood Bowl, if they are updated with modern figures and good production values. Look at the massive success of Space Hulk.
Dread Fleet OTOH is a sign that GW can do a terrible job producing a new boxed game. They need to make some good new games, not just rehash old classics.
Kilkrazy wrote: Kickstarters have gone into a decline because of a number of disappointing projects, market oversaturation, etc.
GW can probably sell a good number of revised starter sets of games like Battle Fleet Gothic and Blood Bowl, if they are updated with modern figures and good production values. Look at the massive success of Space Hulk.
Dread Fleet OTOH is a sign that GW can do a terrible job producing a new boxed game. They need to make some good new games, not just rehash old classics.
Couldn't have said it better. GW expand your range and make it good.
As an added, note, they really need to expand the player base while they are at it, probably best if they get those boxes into non-GW retail outlets to expand beyond the sounding chamber that is the core fan base. Toy shops small and large is where I would want to see the expansions hit but anywhere that would likely put the product infront of fresh eyes.
Azreal13 wrote: There's no need, there's already perfectly good rulesets out in the wild, all we need is straightforward access to appropriate models.
Unless you're talking about fan edits, which I expect GW will explicitly ignore, all of the specialist games I've played(Mordheim, Necromunda and BFG) all have their faults and could use a 2.0. I'd be mildly disappointed if GW simply re-released the last version of the rules they published but I'd be really sad if they did something stupid like make a space marine gang for Necromunda.
Well... A space marine Necromunda gang (not meaning an SM gang in Necromunda itself but a gang in the underhive) could work if we use some of the stuff by Nick Kyme had a salamander fighting in gladiator pits of an underhive
Yaraton wrote: Having invested heavily into FWHH, I am not interested in anything else (money wise) but it would be amusing to see how this is going to end up.
You say that now until they do Epic 30k, Titans and BFG and tie it all up into their ongoing HH black books along with ongoing support for new fleets. I don't know about you, but if they did that my wallet is doomed. Doomed I tell thee!
You say that now until they do Epic 30k, Titans and BFG and tie it all up into their ongoing HH black books along with ongoing support for new fleets. I don't know about you, but if they did that my wallet is doomed. Doomed I tell thee!
I am a family man, I have other priorities. At least that's what my wife keeps telling me.
Kilkrazy wrote: Kickstarters have gone into a decline because of a number of disappointing projects, market oversaturation, etc.
GW can probably sell a good number of revised starter sets of games like Battle Fleet Gothic and Blood Bowl, if they are updated with modern figures and good production values. Look at the massive success of Space Hulk.
Dread Fleet OTOH is a sign that GW can do a terrible job producing a new boxed game. They need to make some good new games, not just rehash old classics.
While what you say is true, GW are working towards this. They are about to release a new game this weekend and after watching the battle report and watching two regulars play some of it in store today, I can say it looks like a good game. :-)
Necromunda, BFG and Epic are likely extremely safe bets for GW in this.
They tie in directly with the 40K universe, so people already have the seeds planted there whether they knew about these games previously or not.
...and even if the new studio munch the rules up, people will still by the minis in droves because they already have the rules they want.
I would imagine Bloodbowl is 'safe', in a way. It's notable that Mordheim and Man'o'war weren't mentioned. Both these games existed in the Old World setting - which is gone.
Bloodbowl always existed off to one side in it's own slightly comedic bubble so I doubt we'll see BloodBowl getting AoS'd - but it could be bad news for Mordheim.
Which is funny, because Mordheim minis would shift like crazy thanks to Frostgrave, if nothing else..
I'm calling this manoeuver "The Reverse Mantic"...
I would be surprised f we didn't see Mordheim. Mordheim was set 500 years before the then current WHFB setting so I don't see that as a problem. Then there's the fact that they can draw upon the large WHFB range of existing models for the warbands. Model-wise, I don't see any other specialist game as ready to go with maybe the exception of Blood Bowl.
It doesn't sound like we'll see much of anything soon - but I am really excited by this news... by far the best thing GW has decided to do lately, imo!
If they're going to adopt existing rulesets and make new minis, then Blood Bowl and Epic are the two most 'mature' rulesets, as they both had very successful publicly playtested rules in the final days of Specialist Games. Blood Bowl's existing rules are being used by a license-holder for a video game too.
In terms of miniatures, the easiest release would pretty clearly be Gorka Morka. All it's missing (aside from the side-gangs) is miniatures for things that are holes in the 40k Ork lineup.
Both Hastings and Harry had talked about a BB re-release a few years back. Apparently it got scrapped at a late stage. So I hazard to guess that a lot of work has been done on that one already, making it low-hanging fruit.
In terms of miniatures, the easiest release would pretty clearly be Gorka Morka. All it's missing (aside from the side-gangs) is miniatures for things that are holes in the 40k Ork lineup.
OHMYGOD I'd forgotten about Gorkamorka!
Which is really embarrassing, because playing "The Chase" scenario (where everything, including terrain, kept moving 6" toward a board edge every turn) is one of my favourite tabletop things ever.
decker_cky wrote: In terms of miniatures, the easiest release would pretty clearly be Gorka Morka. All it's missing (aside from the side-gangs) is miniatures for things that are holes in the 40k Ork lineup.
Only for the original boxed set. You'd have almost nothing for the Diggas and Muties from the Digganob expansion and I'm not sure how much would be needed for the Rebel Grotz.
Andy Chambers cited Gorkamorka as the worst game he created at GW. I wonder if that attitude exists still in GWHQ because Gorka never made it to "specialist game" status like the rest.
In terms of miniatures, the easiest release would pretty clearly be Gorka Morka. All it's missing (aside from the side-gangs) is miniatures for things that are holes in the 40k Ork lineup.
OHMYGOD I'd forgotten about Gorkamorka!
Which is really embarrassing, because playing "The Chase" scenario (where everything, including terrain, kept moving 6" toward a board edge every turn) is one of my favourite tabletop things ever.
Focus the game more around that kind of action and they might have something. But that seems like something far down the road.
decker_cky wrote: In terms of miniatures, the easiest release would pretty clearly be Gorka Morka. All it's missing (aside from the side-gangs) is miniatures for things that are holes in the 40k Ork lineup.
Only for the original boxed set. You'd have almost nothing for the Diggas and Muties from the Digganob expansion and I'm not sure how much would be needed for the Rebel Grotz.
The current Grotz kit for 40k looks almost identical to the old Rebal Grotz models IIRC. They just need that land yacht back haha
Kilkrazy wrote: Kickstarters have gone into a decline because of a number of disappointing projects, market oversaturation, etc.
GW can probably sell a good number of revised starter sets of games like Battle Fleet Gothic and Blood Bowl, if they are updated with modern figures and good production values. Look at the massive success of Space Hulk.
Dread Fleet OTOH is a sign that GW can do a terrible job producing a new boxed game. They need to make some good new games, not just rehash old classics.
While what you say is true, GW are working towards this. They are about to release a new game this weekend and after watching the battle report and watching two regulars play some of it in store today, I can say it looks like a good game. :-)
The Battle of Cailth?
As part of a range of games of different genres it would be good. By itself, yet another new 28mm SF skirmish game will not set the world alight unless you are a massive 40K fluff fan.
Kilkrazy wrote: Kickstarters have gone into a decline because of a number of disappointing projects, market oversaturation, etc.
GW can probably sell a good number of revised starter sets of games like Battle Fleet Gothic and Blood Bowl, if they are updated with modern figures and good production values. Look at the massive success of Space Hulk.
Dread Fleet OTOH is a sign that GW can do a terrible job producing a new boxed game. They need to make some good new games, not just rehash old classics.
While what you say is true, GW are working towards this. They are about to release a new game this weekend and after watching the battle report and watching two regulars play some of it in store today, I can say it looks like a good game. :-)
The Battle of Cailth?
As part of a range of games of different genres it would be good. By itself, yet another new 28mm SF skirmish game will not set the world alight unless you are a massive 40K fluff fan.
The rules set it apart in my opinion. Really quick to learn and fun to play. I see it as a great tool for a 40k enthusiast to play with his non-wargaming but boardgame playing buddies. Once they start marveling at the beautiful miniatures too it's a slippery slope :-)
Bottle wrote: Andy Chambers cited Gorkamorka as the worst game he created at GW. I wonder if that attitude exists still in GWHQ because Gorka never made it to "specialist game" status like the rest.
decker_cky wrote: In terms of miniatures, the easiest release would pretty clearly be Gorka Morka. All it's missing (aside from the side-gangs) is miniatures for things that are holes in the 40k Ork lineup.
Only for the original boxed set. You'd have almost nothing for the Diggas and Muties from the Digganob expansion and I'm not sure how much would be needed for the Rebel Grotz.
The current Grotz kit for 40k looks almost identical to the old Rebal Grotz models IIRC. They just need that land yacht back haha
For older gamers, I can't deny that the nostalgia appeal is a strong pull, but if these games didn't survive last time, then there's no reason to suggest it could work this time in a different climate.
There is competition this time, unlike the 90s.
For Necromunda, the Judge Dredd miniatures game is a great match. Established background and a great game to play.
For Mordheim, read Frostgrave or even the Mordheim videogame when it comes out. Less work to do.
For Blood Bowl, read Guildball or various other wacky versions on the market.
For epic, FOW has filled the void for me, and the miniatures are cheaper.
And of course, what about the communities that have invested time and effort in keeping specialist games alive? I doubt if they'll welcome GW turning up and telling them to sling their hooks.
The only reason a game like Blood Bowl didn't "survive" is because GW decided to stop selling it. Even still, there are tons of "fantasy football" indiegogo / kickstarter / etc campaigns and teams sold by third party companies. If GW put in even a modicum of support, it would do very well!
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: For older gamers, I can't deny that the nostalgia appeal is a strong pull, but if these games didn't survive last time, then there's no reason to suggest it could work this time in a different climate.
There is competition this time, unlike the 90s.
For Necromunda, the Judge Dredd miniatures game is a great match. Established background and a great game to play.
For Mordheim, read Frostgrave or even the Mordheim videogame when it comes out. Less work to do.
For Blood Bowl, read Guildball or various other wacky versions on the market.
For epic, FOW has filled the void for me, and the miniatures are cheaper.
And of course, what about the communities that have invested time and effort in keeping specialist games alive? I doubt if they'll welcome GW turning up and telling them to sling their hooks.
You're clutching at straws. This is a great move from GW that will make many wargames very happy no matter how desperate you are to spoil people's fun.
It also shows a certain level of 'desperation' at GW's part, or maybe it's the beginning of a big radical change for the company. I mean, WFB got 'canned', the "break glass in case of emergency" promise that are plastic HH models, and now the return of the Specialist Games are signs of this.
However, if this is a path GW will continue to walk, I'm very curious to see what they'll try to do next!
Trolls Under the Bridge hit with a cease and desist for their 6mm stuff. They did historical and sci-if I think, just saw it on Yakromunda, apologies if it's been posted.
I only fear what these games would cost if rereleased. Epic would undoubtedly be the most expensive game (counting all 6-15mm games) of it's type on the market.
RiTides wrote: The only reason a game like Blood Bowl didn't "survive" is because GW decided to stop selling it. Even still, there are tons of "fantasy football" indiegogo / kickstarter / etc campaigns and teams sold by third party companies. If GW put in even a modicum of support, it would do very well!
But WHY did they decide to stop selling it?
In the history of mankind, I seriously doubt that people stopped selling something because it was too successful, therefore you can only conclude that sales were poor.
Bear in mind this was the 90s, when WD was selling well, people liked GW and GW's market share was a lot higher than it is now.
If Blood Bowl struggled in favourable conditions years ago, there is no reason to suppose it will prosper in this current climate of declining sales for GW, an indifferent community, and a WD that's on its last legs.
IMO the downfall of the previous SG games was that the business model was not sustainable. By their nature they were small in scope. Once a person has their Delaque gang.. they have it.. there's no need to buy more miniatures. This was offset by the ability to bitz order and Necromunda bits were awesome for IG players.
The new GW business model of relying on their books and supplements is more in line with being able to sustain Necromunda and the like. That's why I really think they need to push towards x-pacs off of a standalone self-contained game and ditch the idea of blisters.
If they do that, there's still a "terminal velocity" of sorts for the sales.. but there's still also room to play. A combination of rules supplements and miniatures + content.. it gives a lot of flexibility as we've seen from CMoN time and again.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: For older gamers, I can't deny that the nostalgia appeal is a strong pull, but if these games didn't survive last time, then there's no reason to suggest it could work this time in a different climate.
There is competition this time, unlike the 90s.
For Necromunda, the Judge Dredd miniatures game is a great match. Established background and a great game to play.
For Mordheim, read Frostgrave or even the Mordheim videogame when it comes out. Less work to do.
For Blood Bowl, read Guildball or various other wacky versions on the market.
For epic, FOW has filled the void for me, and the miniatures are cheaper.
And of course, what about the communities that have invested time and effort in keeping specialist games alive? I doubt if they'll welcome GW turning up and telling them to sling their hooks.
You're clutching at straws. This is a great move from GW that will make many wargames very happy no matter how desperate you are to spoil people's fun.
Clutching at Straws? I've got a field full of hay bales. No shortage of straws here.
AegisGrimm wrote: I only fear what these games would cost if rereleased. Epic would undoubtedly be the most expensive game (counting all 6-15mm games) of it's type on the market.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the inherent problems.
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MLaw wrote: IMO the downfall of the previous SG games was that the business model was not sustainable. By their nature they were small in scope. Once a person has their Delaque gang.. they have it.. there's no need to buy more miniatures. This was offset by the ability to bitz order and Necromunda bits were awesome for IG players.
The new GW business model of relying on their books and supplements is more in line with being able to sustain Necromunda and the like. That's why I really think they need to push towards x-pacs off of a standalone self-contained game and ditch the idea of blisters.
If they do that, there's still a "terminal velocity" of sorts for the sales.. but there's still also room to play. A combination of rules supplements and miniatures + content.. it gives a lot of flexibility as we've seen from CMoN time and again.
It's hard to see how Necromunda can compete with other sci-fi skirmish games that are as equally as top notch.
For example, in the Judge Dredd game, you can buy 1 miniature for £5, a mercenary, and ally it with a friend's gang.
Best value for money I've ever seen. Quick to paint as well.
I have the X-wing box set, and all my friend had to do was buy the Millennium Falcon and he was good to go.
In the history of mankind, I seriously doubt that people stopped selling something because it was too successful, therefore you can only conclude that sales were poor.
Why did Coca Cola stop selling Coke back in 1985 in favor of New Coke? Were the sales of Coke that poor?
Glad it filled your void. Some of us like the 40K fluff, and prefer to play 40K-based games than whatever-based games that happen to have a similar style. It is not a substitute.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: And of course, what about the communities that have invested time and effort in keeping specialist games alive? I doubt if they'll welcome GW turning up and telling them to sling their hooks.
They could turn around and feth over the communities the same way they attempted assassinated the Blood Bowl community, but I don't think them that stupid, especially if this is being done under the auspices of FW.
When 40K went to gak the reason I started writing my own version rather than jumping to Warmachine, Hordes or whatever is because I like 40K, and I don't like Warmachine/Hordes. The game is only one aspect of 40K, the aesthetics and universe/background plays a massive role. Too often people here go "Well just switch to game XYZ". No. I don't have any interest in game XYZ.
Bottle wrote: You're clutching at straws. This is a great move from GW that will make many wargames very happy no matter how desperate you are to spoil people's fun.
Except that this is not the first time GW has done something like this. They were all excited to put the SG together, reissued some rulebooks, and promptly stopped supporting SG games before even a quarter of the teams/armies were reissued.
What's important is that GW's support is a meaningful one.
Specialist games originally collapsed because the entire product line for several games was being carried by just two people. Forgeworld and Horus Heresy has reminded GW that a niche product line can do well when given enough support as part of a cohesive strategy. I think its GW's realization that the opportunity cost of not supporting these games in the past has been a loss of market share as similar enough games have proved to be profitable. I think even GW knows that can't rely so heavily on their Space Marine sales forever.
Apparently Battle at Calth is to be regarded as their first effort and make it seem like GW's CEO, who formerly headed FW, Black Library, and the old Specialist Games, is setting up the new Specialist Games to have a strong enough success under its belt so as to guarantee it has enough autonomy and resources to continue.
In the history of mankind, I seriously doubt that people stopped selling something because it was too successful, therefore you can only conclude that sales were poor.
Why did Coca Cola stop selling Coke back in 1985 in favor of New Coke? Were the sales of Coke that poor?
That was a re-branding exercise that went horribly wrong, which is completely different to ceasing production altogether.
Glad it filled your void. Some of us like the 40K fluff, and prefer to play 40K-based games than whatever-based games that happen to have a similar style. It is not a substitute.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: And of course, what about the communities that have invested time and effort in keeping specialist games alive? I doubt if they'll welcome GW turning up and telling them to sling their hooks.
They could turn around and feth over the communities the same way they attempted assassinated the Blood Bowl community, but I don't think them that stupid, especially if this is being done under the auspices of FW.
When 40K went to gak the reason I started writing my own version rather than jumping to Warmachine, Hordes or whatever is because I like 40K, and I don't like Warmachine/Hordes. The game is only one aspect of 40K, the aesthetics and universe/background plays a massive role. Too often people here go "Well just switch to game XYZ". No. I don't have any interest in game XYZ.
A very long winded way of saying that they weren't substitutes for you, which is fair enough.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: For Blood Bowl, read Guildball or various other wacky versions on the market.
I like the Bloodbowl fluff, teams, sense of humour and style. It is not a substitute.
Guild Ball is an amazing substitute for Blood Bowl and if anything, eclipses it in the same way Jupiter eclipses Pluto. I played Blood Bowl back in the day and I enjoyed it, but Guild Ball is a fantastic rule set which wipes the floor with Blood Bowl.
RiTides wrote: The only reason a game like Blood Bowl didn't "survive" is because GW decided to stop selling it. Even still, there are tons of "fantasy football" indiegogo / kickstarter / etc campaigns and teams sold by third party companies. If GW put in even a modicum of support, it would do very well!
But WHY did they decide to stop selling it?
In the history of mankind, I seriously doubt that people stopped selling something because it was too successful, therefore you can only conclude that sales were poor.
Bear in mind this was the 90s, when WD was selling well, people liked GW and GW's market share was a lot higher than it is now.
If Blood Bowl struggled in favourable conditions years ago, there is no reason to suppose it will prosper in this current climate of declining sales for GW, an indifferent community, and a WD that's on its last legs.
It is my understanding the wargaming (and boardgame) markets are much bigger now and continue to grow. There is already a big enough market to support a few fantasy sport games. The big daddy returning should be able to cut a nice big slice of that pie.
In the mid 90s GW philosophy was to constantly develop new games for their customers. All games outside the flagship games were expected to have a limited lifespan and were eventually replaced by other games by GW.
Over the 00s it was decided that they were canabalizing sales from the flagship games and so phased out (coinciding with the stopping of metal production).
Now GW is starting to wake up and realise the market is a lot bigger now and the time is right to bring some of these games back to capitalize on that!
AegisGrimm wrote: I only fear what these games would cost if rereleased. Epic would undoubtedly be the most expensive game (counting all 6-15mm games) of it's type on the market.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the inherent problems.
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MLaw wrote: IMO the downfall of the previous SG games was that the business model was not sustainable. By their nature they were small in scope. Once a person has their Delaque gang.. they have it.. there's no need to buy more miniatures. This was offset by the ability to bitz order and Necromunda bits were awesome for IG players.
The new GW business model of relying on their books and supplements is more in line with being able to sustain Necromunda and the like. That's why I really think they need to push towards x-pacs off of a standalone self-contained game and ditch the idea of blisters.
If they do that, there's still a "terminal velocity" of sorts for the sales.. but there's still also room to play. A combination of rules supplements and miniatures + content.. it gives a lot of flexibility as we've seen from CMoN time and again.
It's hard to see how Necromunda can compete with other sci-fi skirmish games that are as equally as top notch.
For example, in the Judge Dredd game, you can buy 1 miniature for £5, a mercenary, and ally it with a friend's gang.
Best value for money I've ever seen. Quick to paint as well.
I have the X-wing box set, and all my friend had to do was buy the Millennium Falcon and he was good to go.
Cheap and easy, and hard for GW to compete with.
Price really isn't everything, other things matter, too. Cheap and easy isn't really a great label. Not sure what you think X-Wing would be comparable to - surely not BFG, that's an entirely different kind of game.
Well, just taking a broad, speculative view, I'd suspect that specialist games were abandoned because if you're looking at ROI, the core games were by far and away a better bet, so from a purely financial perspective, it made sense to invest in those and not spend capital on a product which offered a much lower percentage return.
That decision probably made a lot more sense however many years ago that was initially decided, when barriers to entry were much higher for new manufacturers and the market itself was much smaller, making GW in essence a very large fish in little more than a puddle.
The flaw in that thinking was Kirby (presumably) failed to appreciate the very important role that SG played in keeping players suffering burnout from the core games within the GW ecosystem, as well as providing a creative outlet for players who's other armies were "finished."
Couple that with a very slow realisation that it has become progressively easier for other companies to fill the void the absence of these games has left, and the failure to address the fact that it was happening, and you end up at the current situation.
Bringing them back makes complete sense, other competitors have taken the risk and proven there is an appetite for these games, and GW is in a place to capitalise on that appetite like no other wargaming company.
It will be irrelevant if (insert game here) is the most expensive example of it's kind, as long as the quality of product on offer is sufficient for the price in most people's view, it will sell.
1st Game: BFG Top 32 go to next phase;
2nd Game: Epic Top 16 go to next phase
3rd Game: 40k Top 8 go to next phase
4th Game: Necromunda Top 4 go to next phase
5th Game: Inquistitor Final 2 go to next phase
6th Game: Actual 1x1 combat in a GW official Octogon!
Get this set up and I will Judge free of charge.
Forgot the Fantasy side!
1st Game: Dreadfleet/Man O War Top 32 go to next phase
2nd Game: Warmaster Top 16 go to next phase
3rd Game: Warhammer Fantasy Top 8 go to next phase
4th Game: Blood BowlTop 4 go to next phase
5th Game: Mordheim Top 2 go to next phase
6th Game: Actual 1x1 Combat in GW Official Octogon!
AegisGrimm wrote: I only fear what these games would cost if rereleased. Epic would undoubtedly be the most expensive game (counting all 6-15mm games) of it's type on the market.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the inherent problems.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MLaw wrote: IMO the downfall of the previous SG games was that the business model was not sustainable. By their nature they were small in scope. Once a person has their Delaque gang.. they have it.. there's no need to buy more miniatures. This was offset by the ability to bitz order and Necromunda bits were awesome for IG players.
The new GW business model of relying on their books and supplements is more in line with being able to sustain Necromunda and the like. That's why I really think they need to push towards x-pacs off of a standalone self-contained game and ditch the idea of blisters.
If they do that, there's still a "terminal velocity" of sorts for the sales.. but there's still also room to play. A combination of rules supplements and miniatures + content.. it gives a lot of flexibility as we've seen from CMoN time and again.
It's hard to see how Necromunda can compete with other sci-fi skirmish games that are as equally as top notch.
For example, in the Judge Dredd game, you can buy 1 miniature for £5, a mercenary, and ally it with a friend's gang.
Best value for money I've ever seen. Quick to paint as well.
I have the X-wing box set, and all my friend had to do was buy the Millennium Falcon and he was good to go.
Cheap and easy, and hard for GW to compete with.
You say that ... but even as a Judge Dredd fan, I have zero interest in a Dredd miniature game. I know of it. I have seen it and looked over the rules. Frankly though, the premise doesn't do it and a lot of the miniatures are gak.
If you had said Deadzone.. eh.. I'd maybe agree.. I don't like it very well, but there is a following. If you said Infinity, I'd be like.. Oh.. ok.. yeah..that's a hugely popular game! If you had said Warmahordes.. which.. is kinda fantasy but kinda futuristic.. I'd even nod a bit... but Judge Dredd? I kinda feel like you want them to bring Andy and Gav back to make amends. That's ok.. if it's what you're looking for. If I am misreading between the lines, just excuse me.
If your point was a game based on an established IP.. I kinda don't see the relevance of established IP or not.. but by that token, look at the Batman and now Marvel miniature games. I don't think GW should even try to compete with any of the games you've mentioned though. ALL of those games are still contingent upon the trickled release of blisters. At that point it becomes a game of attrition. They have to approach it from outside of the arena and establish it more as a tabletop/boardgame type of situation. Maybe not boardgame per se but set up that type of environment (as I previously said). Trying to beat anyone at their own game is a fool's errand. Change the rules and win the game by default.
Anyway.. I see you keep bringing up X-Wing, and that's fine. I know it's a popular game right now and you're right.. Star Wars is massive. I'm a fan myself. That did not stop Halo's fleet game from coming out though. AFAIK, it launched well. I don't know if it's thriving or sustainable but I do know that the pre-sale for it was pretty successful. I also know that the Star Trek spaceship game fell flat on it's face. Having a franchise doesn't mean you have an instant win.
I also know, from following Andy Chamber on Facebook ...or.. maybe it was Twitter.. There's a BFG video game coming out and Andy is consulting on it. So.. take that as you will.
AegisGrimm wrote: I only fear what these games would cost if rereleased. Epic would undoubtedly be the most expensive game (counting all 6-15mm games) of it's type on the market.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the inherent problems.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MLaw wrote: IMO the downfall of the previous SG games was that the business model was not sustainable. By their nature they were small in scope. Once a person has their Delaque gang.. they have it.. there's no need to buy more miniatures. This was offset by the ability to bitz order and Necromunda bits were awesome for IG players.
The new GW business model of relying on their books and supplements is more in line with being able to sustain Necromunda and the like. That's why I really think they need to push towards x-pacs off of a standalone self-contained game and ditch the idea of blisters.
If they do that, there's still a "terminal velocity" of sorts for the sales.. but there's still also room to play. A combination of rules supplements and miniatures + content.. it gives a lot of flexibility as we've seen from CMoN time and again.
It's hard to see how Necromunda can compete with other sci-fi skirmish games that are as equally as top notch.
For example, in the Judge Dredd game, you can buy 1 miniature for £5, a mercenary, and ally it with a friend's gang.
Best value for money I've ever seen. Quick to paint as well.
I have the X-wing box set, and all my friend had to do was buy the Millennium Falcon and he was good to go.
Cheap and easy, and hard for GW to compete with.
Price really isn't everything, other things matter, too. Cheap and easy isn't really a great label. Not sure what you think X-Wing would be comparable to - surely not BFG, that's an entirely different kind of game.
Agree with you on price, but Judge Dredd is a fantastic game to play.
Unlike other games, your miniatures react when they get shot at. They do things like take cover and return fire. Imagine that in a game.
Azreal13 wrote: There's no need, there's already perfectly good rulesets out in the wild, all we need is straightforward access to appropriate models.
Unless you're talking about fan edits, which I expect GW will explicitly ignore, all of the specialist games I've played(Mordheim, Necromunda and BFG) all have their faults and could use a 2.0. I'd be mildly disappointed if GW simply re-released the last version of the rules they published but I'd be really sad if they did something stupid like make a space marine gang for Necromunda.
A space marine gang for necromunda would be immense! Have you seen the work FW are putting into the black shields in heresy book 6? It's one of the things I'm most excited about and would fit necromunda perfectly. It also would be a fantastic throwback to rogue trader marines.
The latest Blood Bowl releases from Black Library made it clear that Blood Bowl is still set in an alternate reality of the (Warhammer) Old World. There is no need after AoS to change Blood Bowl
Blood Bowl
Welcome to a delightfully twisted fantasy world where humans, elves, goblins and ogres work out their aggressions not on the battlefield, but on the football field. When talented scout Slick Fullbelly spots Dunk bringing down a Chimera with a spear from a hundred paces, he's sure that his search is over. Slick works for the Bad Bay Hackers, and they need a new thrower. Dunk is about to be plunged headfirst into the insane world of Blood Bowl, the fastest, meanest sport in this dark and brutal world. Dunk puts down his sword and steps off the battlefield... and onto the football field.
This classic Black Library novel was the first ever set in the lunatic alternate fantasy of the Blood Bowl world: a world where the brutal wars of the Old World have been replaced with an arguably even more brutal game of football. If you're after serious fantasy, this is not it. But if you fancy a no holds bared, action packed, rough and tumble roller-coaster of a sporting hero story meets monster mash - then game on!
Blood bowl didn't receive any sustained support from GW after 3rd edition (4th edition is roughly 2000 timewise). They redid a few new big guys, and pretty much added new niche teams after that time. They didn't update anything that's really a 'core' team. There's a reason GW redoes space marines every four years, because people will pay for new prettier versions of the stuff they like.
GW only went back to a core team once with blood bowl, and that's the Humans that were released right at the end of blood bowl's life.
Most of the range was still the terrible 5th edition WFB aesthetic (3rd edition blood bowl teams). Just as GW started redoing stuff, they pulled the plug.
I know GW could have justified supporting blood bowl because I see how many companies are able to support themselves selling blood bowl products with no support from GW, and the heavily inflated second hand market.
There was just over 900 players competing at the blood bowl world cup last weekend. Properly supported blood bowl minis will sell (though obviously, there's a lot more competition in terms of available minis these days).
Whilst Dredd might be a cheap and great game to play, the miniatures sadly enough look as if they've been sculpted in the late 80's, early 90's. The Necromunda stuff is still on a higher level than that.
I think what makes us yearn for those old games maybe isn't even the games themselves of the rates GW will charge for them, but the actual miniatures, background material and artwork. Those have always been the things that attracted me to GW, and I really hope they can deliver that great quality again.
All games outside the flagship games were expected to have a limited lifespan and were eventually replaced by other games by GW.
That's not how they sold it to me back then.
I spoke to Jervis years ago at games day, and I received personal guarantees that the specialist games were here to stay.
You're getting your decades mixed up. I was describing the 90s. The "specialist games" banner was the 00s where they brought favorites from the 90s back until they decided they were canabalizing sales and dropped them along with dropping metal production.
AegisGrimm wrote: I only fear what these games would cost if rereleased. Epic would undoubtedly be the most expensive game (counting all 6-15mm games) of it's type on the market.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees the inherent problems.
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MLaw wrote: IMO the downfall of the previous SG games was that the business model was not sustainable. By their nature they were small in scope. Once a person has their Delaque gang.. they have it.. there's no need to buy more miniatures. This was offset by the ability to bitz order and Necromunda bits were awesome for IG players.
The new GW business model of relying on their books and supplements is more in line with being able to sustain Necromunda and the like. That's why I really think they need to push towards x-pacs off of a standalone self-contained game and ditch the idea of blisters.
If they do that, there's still a "terminal velocity" of sorts for the sales.. but there's still also room to play. A combination of rules supplements and miniatures + content.. it gives a lot of flexibility as we've seen from CMoN time and again.
It's hard to see how Necromunda can compete with other sci-fi skirmish games that are as equally as top notch.
For example, in the Judge Dredd game, you can buy 1 miniature for £5, a mercenary, and ally it with a friend's gang.
Best value for money I've ever seen. Quick to paint as well.
I have the X-wing box set, and all my friend had to do was buy the Millennium Falcon and he was good to go.
Cheap and easy, and hard for GW to compete with.
You say that ... but even as a Judge Dredd fan, I have zero interest in a Dredd miniature game. I know of it. I have seen it and looked over the rules. Frankly though, the premise doesn't do it and a lot of the miniatures are gak.
If you had said Deadzone.. eh.. I'd maybe agree.. I don't like it very well, but there is a following. If you said Infinity, I'd be like.. Oh.. ok.. yeah..that's a hugely popular game! If you had said Warmahordes.. which.. is kinda fantasy but kinda futuristic.. I'd even nod a bit... but Judge Dredd? I kinda feel like you want them to bring Andy and Gav back to make amends. That's ok.. if it's what you're looking for. If I am misreading between the lines, just excuse me.
If your point was a game based on an established IP.. I kinda don't see the relevance of established IP or not.. but by that token, look at the Batman and now Marvel miniature games. I don't think GW should even try to compete with any of the games you've mentioned though. ALL of those games are still contingent upon the trickled release of blisters. At that point it becomes a game of attrition. They have to approach it from outside of the arena and establish it more as a tabletop/boardgame type of situation. Maybe not boardgame per se but set up that type of environment (as I previously said). Trying to beat anyone at their own game is a fool's errand. Change the rules and win the game by default.
Anyway.. I see you keep bringing up X-Wing, and that's fine. I know it's a popular game right now and you're right.. Star Wars is massive. I'm a fan myself. That did not stop Halo's fleet game from coming out though. AFAIK, it launched well. I don't know if it's thriving or sustainable but I do know that the pre-sale for it was pretty successful. I also know that the Star Trek spaceship game fell flat on it's face. Having a franchise doesn't mean you have an instant win.
I also know, from following Andy Chamber on Facebook ...or.. maybe it was Twitter.. There's a BFG video game coming out and Andy is consulting on it. So.. take that as you will.
Obviously it's my personal opinion of games I enjoy and other people may have different ideas on this, as is their right.
The reason why I mentioned Judge Dredd and Star Wars is quell the myth that GW's games sell because they have a strong fluff appeal.
As you know, Star Wars has a background that is light years ahead of anything GW has. No pun intended.
GW's various backgrounds have strong competitors.
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Malika2 wrote: Whilst Dredd might be a cheap and great game to play, the miniatures sadly enough look as if they've been sculpted in the late 80's, early 90's. The Necromunda stuff is still on a higher level than that.
I think what makes us yearn for those old games maybe isn't even the games themselves of the rates GW will charge for them, but the actual miniatures, background material and artwork. Those have always been the things that attracted me to GW, and I really hope they can deliver that great quality again.
You'll get no argument from me about the miniatures. They're good, but not great.
All games outside the flagship games were expected to have a limited lifespan and were eventually replaced by other games by GW.
That's not how they sold it to me back then.
I spoke to Jervis years ago at games day, and I received personal guarantees that the specialist games were here to stay.
You're getting your decades mixed up. I was describing the 90s. The "specialist games" banner was the 00s where they brought favorites from the 90s back until they decided they were canabalizing sales and dropped them along with dropping metal production.
I'm sorry Jervis broke his promise to you.
Jervis is a pretty decent person, and good to talk too, so I forgive him.
Hmmm the revamp of Blood Bowl better be good. Unless you really are into the "Killer Fantasy Rugby" miniature style there's little reason for someone new to take the, most likely, more expensive tabletop version over the video game versions. They'll have to change it to make it stand out for sure.
And whilst Star Wars and Judge Dredd are probably bigger settings than 40k, when it comes to tabletop wargaming GW is still the dominant force out there. More people are playing 40k than lets say X-Wing or Judge Dredd...
Ghaz wrote: No. That was a new product, not just 'rebranding'.
As Shakespeare once said, a Coke by any other name, is still a Coke
And I'm pretty sure that auto-correct has spelt the Bard's name wrong, as well.
Except once again, it wasn't just a name change. They actually changed the product. You're ignoring facts because it doesn't support your argument.
Coca Cola were still selling coke, though, just a different recipe.
Just because Ford stopped making the model T years ago, doesn't mean they're not a car company. They still make cars, just different designs.
And a different recipe is not the same product, or is Age of Sigmar the same as Warhammer Fantasy Battle just with a different 'recipe'? I don't think so.
Malika2 wrote: And whilst Star Wars and Judge Dredd are probably bigger settings than 40k, when it comes to tabletop wargaming GW is still the dominant force out there. More people are playing 40k than lets say X-Wing or Judge Dredd...
The fact that I've been able to convince people to play X-Wing, when previously these same people would rather carve out their hearts with a rusty spoon than play war-games, says a lot about the power of Star wars, in a way which GW could never hope to compete with.
But I agree, for now, that GW are still ahead, but for how much longer?
I would also like to point out.. GW knows how well their video games are doing.
Considering there is a video game for Epic, Bloodbowl, Mordheim, and one upcoming for BFG.. I really think they have some good number to base a forward looking strategy on. As a matter of fact, I think they might be using the games as a beach head to establish a bolstered fanbase prior to miniature analogs. It's a logical strategy since the video games can be distributed much farther with less overhead to a massive audience. From what I've heard, the Blood Bowl PS4 game is a lot of fun. I have never played the actual boardgame for BB but I played the hell out of the computer game that came out a few years back.
Either way.. there's been one or two consistent naysayers in the thread and I'm still not sure what the message they're trying to impart is other than "bah humbug". To me it's simple. If these games come out and you don't want to support them.. then pass on them. I think most people understand that sentiment and to a degree might even share it. On the other hand, life is short and holding grudges against miniature games companies seems like maybe not the best way to spend our precious little time.. especially when it can be spent playing those games!
SilverDevilfish wrote: Hmmm the revamp of Blood Bowl better be good. Unless you really are into the "Killer Fantasy Rugby" miniature style there's little reason for someone new to take the, most likely, more expensive tabletop version over the video game versions. They'll have to change it to make it stand out for sure.
The game being far better, even based on the same ruleset, is enough reason already.
Malika2 wrote: And whilst Star Wars and Judge Dredd are probably bigger settings than 40k, when it comes to tabletop wargaming GW is still the dominant force out there. More people are playing 40k than lets say X-Wing or Judge Dredd...
The fact that I've been able to convince people to play X-Wing, when previously these same people would rather carve out their hearts with a rusty spoon than play war-games, says a lot about the power of Star wars, in a way which GW could never hope to compete with.
But I agree, for now, that GW are still ahead, but for how much longer?
Playing by your rules.. Star Wars had a miniature game in the 90s. West End Games was the manufacturer. I am an owner of said game. Star Wars had a Miniatures Game fairly recently in the form of Star Wars Miniatures. Star Wars has a semi-miniatures, semi-boardgame miniature game out now called Imperial Assault. The danger of franchise games like this, is that they're reliant upon the agreement for the rights. If the games company is unable to maintain that agreement, the support for that game is guaranteed to end. Not a maybe. So.. with your argument.. the problem was that the bottom will fall out on SG. Well.. I can promise you.. it might not seem like it.. but the bottom will fall out on X-Wing as well. I also have Star Wars Pocket Models Game and probably a few others floating about that are all OOP.
MLaw wrote: I would also like to point out.. GW knows how well their video games are doing.
Considering there is a video game for Epic, Bloodbowl, Mordheim, and one upcoming for BFG.. I really think they have some good number to base a forward looking strategy on. As a matter of fact, I think they might be using the games as a beach head to establish a bolstered fanbase prior to miniature analogs. It's a logical strategy since the video games can be distributed much farther with less overhead to a massive audience. From what I've heard, the Blood Bowl PS4 game is a lot of fun. I have never played the actual boardgame for BB but I played the hell out of the computer game that came out a few years back.
Either way.. there's been one or two consistent naysayers in the thread and I'm still not sure what the message they're trying to impart is other than "bah humbug". To me it's simple. If these games come out and you don't want to support them.. then pass on them. I think most people understand that sentiment and to a degree might even share it. On the other hand, life is short and holding grudges against miniature games companies seems like maybe not the best way to spend our precious little time.. especially when it can be spent playing those games!
I agree that it's a good strategy from GW, but FFG have released new ships for a well known blockbuster film that is likely to make a trillion dollars when it comes out next month
Other companies have tricks up their sleeves as well.
I hope you're not referring to me as a naysayer!
I freely admit to having enjoyed GW products over the years, and I hope other people enjoy these new games if they come out. If they're as good as the originals, then new players are in for a treat.
But never the less, my scepticism towards GW is based on personal experience, and their numerous actions over the years that have done damage to retailers, customers, and the wargaming community in general.
I hope people will understand why some people are taking this with a pinch of salt.
Malika2 wrote: And whilst Star Wars and Judge Dredd are probably bigger settings than 40k, when it comes to tabletop wargaming GW is still the dominant force out there. More people are playing 40k than lets say X-Wing or Judge Dredd...
The fact that I've been able to convince people to play X-Wing, when previously these same people would rather carve out their hearts with a rusty spoon than play war-games, says a lot about the power of Star wars, in a way which GW could never hope to compete with.
But I agree, for now, that GW are still ahead, but for how much longer?
Playing by your rules.. Star Wars had a miniature game in the 90s. West End Games was the manufacturer. I am an owner of said game. Star Wars had a Miniatures Game fairly recently in the form of Star Wars Miniatures. Star Wars has a semi-miniatures, semi-boardgame miniature game out now called Imperial Assault. The danger of franchise games like this, is that they're reliant upon the agreement for the rights. If the games company is unable to maintain that agreement, the support for that game is guaranteed to end. Not a maybe. So.. with your argument.. the problem was that the bottom will fall out on SG. Well.. I can promise you.. it might not seem like it.. but the bottom will fall out on X-Wing as well. I also have Star Wars Pocket Models Game and probably a few others floating about that are all OOP.
True, but GW threw the SG on the scrapheap before, so there's no guarantee that won't happen again.
MLaw wrote: I would also like to point out.. GW knows how well their video games are doing.
Considering there is a video game for Epic, Bloodbowl, Mordheim, and one upcoming for BFG.. I really think they have some good number to base a forward looking strategy on. As a matter of fact, I think they might be using the games as a beach head to establish a bolstered fanbase prior to miniature analogs. It's a logical strategy since the video games can be distributed much farther with less overhead to a massive audience. From what I've heard, the Blood Bowl PS4 game is a lot of fun. I have never played the actual boardgame for BB but I played the hell out of the computer game that came out a few years back.
Either way.. there's been one or two consistent naysayers in the thread and I'm still not sure what the message they're trying to impart is other than "bah humbug". To me it's simple. If these games come out and you don't want to support them.. then pass on them. I think most people understand that sentiment and to a degree might even share it. On the other hand, life is short and holding grudges against miniature games companies seems like maybe not the best way to spend our precious little time.. especially when it can be spent playing those games!
Random aside, but stick with the old PC Bloodbowl. ;-) Its built around the final fan-rules, and gets you all the teams, and a proper campaign for cheap, whereas the new game is an abysmal, and buggy, cash-grab. :-p
True, but GW threw the SG on the scrapheap before, so there's no guarantee that won't happen again.
Warhammer Fantasy is no more, as well.
Eh.. I stopped playing WHFB a while back. It was fun but way too open to abuse. Haven't really felt like that was an itch I needed to go back and scratch badly either. AoS looked like an interesting change of pace but I've not dared touch it with a 10' pole.
As to the actual topic.. SG.. Well.. that's just it. The approach I'm hoping they take doesn't care if they throw it on the scrap heap. It's self-contained. It just exists and does not need a perpetual life cycle. Mordheim, for better or worse, is out there and thanks to the deluge of fantasy models available, you can proxy anything ever given rules in Mordheim. If you're patient, you can run down printed versions but the free versions of the rules (community, bootleg, or other) are not exactly difficult to locate either. I was fortunate enough.. again.. to have my rules and other goodies from when it was still live.. but the game lives, GW be damned. If they approach the other games the way I suggested, all they have to do is sell those kits until people stop buying them.
MLaw wrote: I would also like to point out.. GW knows how well their video games are doing.
Considering there is a video game for Epic, Bloodbowl, Mordheim, and one upcoming for BFG.. I really think they have some good number to base a forward looking strategy on. As a matter of fact, I think they might be using the games as a beach head to establish a bolstered fanbase prior to miniature analogs. It's a logical strategy since the video games can be distributed much farther with less overhead to a massive audience. From what I've heard, the Blood Bowl PS4 game is a lot of fun. I have never played the actual boardgame for BB but I played the hell out of the computer game that came out a few years back.
Either way.. there's been one or two consistent naysayers in the thread and I'm still not sure what the message they're trying to impart is other than "bah humbug". To me it's simple. If these games come out and you don't want to support them.. then pass on them. I think most people understand that sentiment and to a degree might even share it. On the other hand, life is short and holding grudges against miniature games companies seems like maybe not the best way to spend our precious little time.. especially when it can be spent playing those games!
Random aside, but stick with the old PC Bloodbowl. ;-) Its built around the final fan-rules, and gets you all the teams, and a proper campaign for cheap, whereas the new game is an abysmal, and buggy, cash-grab. :-p
Yeah, I stopped playing the old one because of the bugs in it. I'm waiting for the new one to be the free game for PS+ subscribers
I hate upper management of GW as much as the next guy with a lick of common sense, but if you're going to disparage them over making the correct move and admitting they were wrong doing something, there's some sorta hatred within you that's pretty irrational.
I'm not interested in Blood Bowl, but BFG might peek my interest. I don't know what the other games are though.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I hate upper management of GW as much as the next guy with a lick of common sense, but if you're going to disparage them over making the correct move and admitting they were wrong doing something, there's some sorta hatred within you that's pretty irrational.
I'm not interested in Blood Bowl, but BFG might peek my interest. I don't know what the other games are though.
Quick Summaries - Epic Armageddon - 40k Apocalypse style matches but with little 6mm scaled figures. Bloodbowl - Fantasy Rugby Mordheim - Fantasy Skirmish in a city ravaged by a meteor strike Necromunda - Sci-fi skirmish in a hive city BFG - Spaceship battles Man-O-War - Naval sea battles Gorkamorka - Ork gangs battling out with emphasis on light, fast vehicles (think Mad Max) Warmaster - WHFB but tiny 6mm figures Inquisitor - Large, action figure sized 40k miniatures with a rpg-like rule set Aeronautica Imperialis - 40k aerial battles
The Star Wars games are all licensed properties, FFG has a bad history with supporting games long term, especially licensed properties. Funnily enough, the Warhammer Fantasy and 40k properties are probably the longest running licensed property FFG has. X-wing / Armada might have another four years in it due to the (probable) popularity of the sequel movies, but will FFG be able to churn out interesting ships for the next four years? I honestly doubt it. The SW universe in it's current form is rather limited (due to the excommunication of the previous extended universe). Star Wars Legends and the prequels might extend the product line, but I wonder how popular it will be... Look at what happened to GWLotR after the last movie, not good for GW, but they've persisted until now. Looking at previous license deals with WEG and WotC, plus how FFG has previously acted with licensed properties past their initial success, I have little hope for extended support. Although the acquisition of FFG by Asmodee might change the future of the SW game at FFG. It of course also depends on till when the license deal expires and what Disney want for an extension of the license...
GW has the luxury of having mostly their own IP, no issue of BFG not being licensed in 5 years, although a new change in leadership might mean that it goes into the freezer for another decade...
I had thought they were 10mm but someone was saying 6mm earlier.. I think the infantry is 6mm and the vehicles are 10mm or the other way around. I do remember that the scales between the vehicles and infantry are not actually equal.
Malika2 wrote: It also shows a certain level of 'desperation' at GW's part, or maybe it's the beginning of a big radical change for the company. I mean, WFB got 'canned', the "break glass in case of emergency" promise that are plastic HH models, and now the return of the Specialist Games are signs of this.
However, if this is a path GW will continue to walk, I'm very curious to see what they'll try to do next!
Azreal13 wrote: Bringing them back makes complete sense, other competitors have taken the risk and proven there is an appetite for these games, and GW is in a place to capitalise on that appetite like no other wargaming company.
It will be irrelevant if (insert game here) is the most expensive example of it's kind, as long as the quality of product on offer is sufficient for the price in most people's view, it will sell.
Where they'll fall over is the price.
If a gang of 10 Necromunda models (multi-part kit) costs US$80, then it doesn't matter how awesome Newcromunda is. If the entry price to Newheim is a $280 boxed set that has 25 minis and some cardboard terrain, then it won't matter if it's the greatest skirmish game ever written. If Newpic has the best 6mm minis made of all time it won't matter if a squadron of Land Raiders cost its (literal) weight in gold.
New Bowl.
Battlefleet Newthic.
Newkamorka
Newhammer Quest.
Newquisitor.
But then, it will be near impossible to justify the quality vs cost.
I agree the weak link is potentially cost, but they have the potential to produce something that justifies a premium was essentially my point, whether they strike the balance is a big, but different, question.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: The reason why I mentioned Judge Dredd and Star Wars is quell the myth that GW's games sell because they have a strong fluff appeal.
They do. Their two greatest things GW has at their disposal are:
1. Their in-house plastics manufacturing capabilities.
2. Their IP.
They do sell games because of their strong fluff appeal. To say anything contrary to that is to deny reality.
So, does this notice of games coming up in the next couple years and the secrecy veil falling away lend credence to the New Line Cinema agreement? The one discussed before that NLC told them they had to stifle N&R during LotR and Hobbit for even their own lines after a LotR model was leaked early? Looks possible that GW was a victim too.
Damn, this new hard, white suit is uncomfortable. I don't like it.
Azreal13 wrote: Bringing them back makes complete sense, other competitors have taken the risk and proven there is an appetite for these games, and GW is in a place to capitalise on that appetite like no other wargaming company.
It will be irrelevant if (insert game here) is the most expensive example of it's kind, as long as the quality of product on offer is sufficient for the price in most people's view, it will sell.
Where they'll fall over is the price.
If a gang of 10 Necromunda models (multi-part kit) costs US$80, then it doesn't matter how awesome Newcromunda is. If the entry price to Newheim is a $280 boxed set that has 25 minis and some cardboard terrain, then it won't matter if it's the greatest skirmish game ever written. If Newpic has the best 6mm minis made of all time it won't matter if a squadron of Land Raiders cost its (literal) weight in gold.
New Bowl.
Battlefleet Newthic.
Newkamorka
Newhammer Quest.
Newquisitor.
Sorry, had to get that out of my system.
What world are you living in that 10 high quality models for a skirmish game don't cost $80? For that scale of game, that's kind of what you expect (that's pretty much on par with Malifaux, for example).
Considering what's in betrayal at calth for the price, I don't think we'll be looking at any enclosed box sets at $280.
Looking at blood bowl for example, in terms of third parties, 100 euros is pretty much the price you expect to pay for a full squad of 16. If GW do an excellent team, I'd probably pay a bit more than that.
Then you start to look at star players for $15-20 a pop.
On the prices.. they have been doing a good job on big box releases. Dark Vengeance, Stormclaw, Island of Blood.. even the Age of Sigmar box is an incredible value. When I bought the Mordheim and BFG boxes they were I think $85 on sale (it's been a while.. might've been $75 on sale). The games were still in production so that's not an e-bay purchase or anything. I bought the other games in pieces or traded so I don't know how much they were MSRP... though I could dig it up in White Dwarf if I was really curious.
That said
Betrayal at Calth is MSRP $150 with 30 marines, 6 terminators, and a Dread. That's a hefty box cost but compared to buying the models, even at discount, it's a bargain in GW terms. Not sure I'll be able to swallow $150 for a SG unless it's loaded to the gills with goodies.
Blood Bowl is Fantasy NFL, you can't pass the ball forwards in rugby, there's no line of scrimmage, you can only tackle the ball carrier...
Well..it aint NFL either.. you can't pass the ball once you're past the line of scrimmage.
It's a cross between rugby and American-rules football, but the fluff pulls most heavily from the latter. From Wikipedia:
Blood Bowl includes numerous tongue in cheek references to real life products and companies. The deity overseeing Blood Bowl is Nuffle - a pun on the pronunciation of NFL. The game spoofs at least four real-world trademarks, including McDonald's (McMurty's), Budweiser (Bloodweiser), Adidas (Orcidas), and Gatorade (Kroxorade). Many team names in the game's background are spoofs as well such as the Orcland Raiders (Oakland Raiders) and the Darkside Cowboys (Dallas Cowboys). Famous sporting personalities are parodied as well, with the most famous (and oldest) coach in Blood Bowl's background being Tomolandry the Undying (Tom Landry), and one of the most recently added stars being the Ogre thrower, Brick Far'th (Brett Favre).
There is no reason a box of 10 Necromunda gangers, who would be on the same scale as Guardsmen, should cost more than a Tactical Squad box.
You really need to look around a bit. Try buying 10 gangers from Heresy (they have some Delaque types). 25 of them will run you 92 GBP while on Mad Robot when he has his Van Saars available, it'll presumably be about $40. Raging Heroes sees what is basically an Escher Gang going for $122+. Prices are all over the place right now. I don't think $80 for JUST a gang will work but if it's a rulebook and 2 gangs for $120, I think people will bite.
EDIT: Wait.. what?!?!?! Tactical Marines are how much now?!?!?
There's always a certain price vs percentage of force dichotomy.
You need lots more models in 40K, so the price needs to (should?) be lower, but if I were buying essentially a whole gang for Newcromunda or Modernheim, then if it were say, £40, but had kit options etc, it would feel better value, as it was a whole "army."
I'd even consider £50 if there were a LOT of options.
MLaw wrote: You really need to look around a bit. Try buying 10 gangers from Heresy (they have some Delaque types). 25 of them will run you 92 GBP while on Mad Robot when he has his Van Saars available, it'll presumably be about $40. Raging Heroes sees what is basically an Escher Gang going for $122+. Prices are all over the place right now. I don't think $80 for JUST a gang will work but if it's a rulebook and 2 gangs for $120, I think people will bite.
Individual metal miniatures from boutique modelling companies are in no way representative of mass produced plastic kits. Even the Raging Heroes boxed plastics don't compare to what GW can do with their production capabilities.
I own a lot of the Heresy miniature not-Delaques. They're worth the money. I bought a Pit Slave Gang and a Cawdor gang off eBay. Cost a fortune. Still worth it. But GW doing new ones would be different.
Furthermore, an Escher Gang from Raging Heroes isn't an Escher gang. It's completely unrelated models used to substitute in for models that are hard to come by. It is a false equivalency to say that the cost of them is in any way indicative of what GW gang prices would be.
In the history of mankind, I seriously doubt that people stopped selling something because it was too successful, therefore you can only conclude that sales were poor.
People rarely stop selling something because it is too successful (Flappy Bird aside), but that doesn't mean that something being dropped from a range automatically means that it sells badly. There are all sorts of reasons that companies can choose to drop popular products from their range, not least simply because of their chosen business strategy. (See WotC dropping Star Wars Miniatures despite it for a time outselling D&D, so that they could refocus their resources on D&D and MtG).
When the games that later became the 'Specialist' range were released, GW's standard business model was to run with their two core titles, and a third game that would be supported for a time and then replaced. It didn't matter how popular those third games were... once they hit the point where the next game was imminent, the current one would be dropped if it hadn't faded away on its own already.
The Specialist catalogue no doubt sold worse than the individual games did the first time around, but that would be down emtirely to lack of ongoing support and the fact that they were direct-only. Bringing back those games as rotating splash releases with updated rules and miniatures would, I suspect, do far better than adding a 'Specialist' tag on the website and then largely ignoring it did.
Off topic: Lots of things have stopped selling/companies have gone under because something was too successful. It can be a business killer to get too much success before you're able to handle it. Don't think that's what happened with the specialist games of course, but general statement.
On topic, all this is great news and I expect it will take several months to start seeing anything from it, but I'm excited.
Skipped the last 8 pages so idk if this has come up.
So i spoke with my local manager today, he got the memo, trouble is it says they will be looking into bringing back the older games.(as well as making new ones)
So someone could decide they are not viable and we wont see them again.
EDIT:
Wait.. what?!?!?! Tactical Marines are how much now?!?!?
Check the flag. You're using USD, he's linking you to the Australian site. (For extra coronary action, check the New Zealand site where they're 75 New Zealand dollars)
Edit: tentatively excited by this. I've been looking for a Necromunda style small skirmish game, so if Necromunda itself comes back (with campaign rules) I'm in whole hog.
H.B.M.C. wrote: If Newpic has the best 6mm minis made of all time it won't matter if a squadron of Land Raiders cost its (literal) weight in gold.
This was an issue with the last version of Epic, too. One of the models, the metal Thunderhawk Transporter was so effing expensive for misshapen bar of "not-lead" that people in AMERICA began spincasting copies. Not Russia, not China, but America. Seriously, you have got to be pricing out past Saturn's orbit if recasting by Americas can be profitable. And we're not even talking about the nicer looking FW version, either. And GW wondered why it didn't sell well.
I own well over 1200(yes. 1200+) blood bowl/fantasy football figures.
i would love to buy more. i just have to wonder how much a modern gw team would cost these days. when the last "new" gw teams were released, vamps, pro elves, last humans, they were, iirc, $50 or so.
and also, most teams these days are between 60-80usd. while there are indeed teams in the $100usd area, there are far more at the lower price.
black scorpion has some very nice teams for about $35usd.
Well we'll see what GW will do, just re-issues of the old game or a restart.
As a BFG fanboy, i will hope they will come out with a new boxed set, Admech vs Necrons? Eldar vs Space marines? Dark eldar vs imperials? Space marines vs Tyranids, Orks Vs Chaos or Squats Vs Slann? Just kidding oh and the tau they could use a redesign of their ships.
Chances of a re-issue of inquisitor will be slim, i think, i liked the 54mm figures, but a re-release for 28/32mm would be better
Breotan wrote: This was an issue with the last version of Epic, too. One of the models, the metal Thunderhawk Transporter was so effing expensive for misshapen bar of "not-lead" that people in AMERICA began spincasting copies. Not Russia, not China, but America. Seriously, you have got to be pricing out past Saturn's orbit if recasting by Americas can be profitable. And we're not even talking about the nicer looking FW version, either. And GW wondered why it didn't sell well.
Actually, yes, you are correct. The barrier to entry on Epic was shockingly bad.
Bottle wrote: Andy Chambers cited Gorkamorka as the worst game he created at GW. I wonder if that attitude exists still in GWHQ because Gorka never made it to "specialist game" status like the rest.
He also cited BFG as his best work at GW.
I'll probably be in the minority on this but I really didn't enjoy any of the specialist games. The mordheim/gorkamorka/necromunda rulesets weren't very good IMO and I owned one of them. Blood Bowl was cumbersome and boring (owned it) and Space Hulk really didn't feel like what I wanted from marines although there were some good mechanics in it (owned it). I never played the epic stuff so I can't comment on that but BFG was 1500's ships in space water and a much worse game system than other space ship rulesets of its time (although the minis were nice). I'm glad for other folks but personally none of the specialist stuff appealed to me. The only things I'd be interested in would be in Forgeworld started remaking their resin stuff as I'd like to pic up a few things for a hobby project I thought of 15 years ago that never got off the ground.
bound for glory wrote: I own well over 1200(yes. 1200+) blood bowl/fantasy football figures.
i would love to buy more. i just have to wonder how much a modern gw team would cost these days. when the last "new" gw teams were released, vamps, pro elves, last humans, they were, iirc, $50 or so.
and also, most teams these days are between 60-80usd. while there are indeed teams in the $100usd area, there are far more at the lower price.
black scorpion has some very nice teams for about $35usd.
I love me some bloodbowl (as my picture may imply) but cannot imagine having 60+ teams (based on rough numbers of 16 players and 4 staff per team) at any one time.
I tip my hat to you, and probably try to sneakily offer you some Southern Shrike Bowl miniatures to fuel your addiction hobby.
decker_cky wrote: What world are you living in that 10 high quality models for a skirmish game don't cost $80? For that scale of game, that's kind of what you expect (that's pretty much on par with Malifaux, for example).
There's no reason why a 10 man House Cawdor/Redemptionist gang needs to cost more than a 10 man Kabalite Warrior or Wych squad. I'd argue the same is true of House Escher, at least - a good plastic kit would sell a ton to people wanting to bulk out their TGG Jailbirds with cheaper plastic rank and file on top of the usual fans, I'm sure. It's only once you hit the gangs that cannot be slotted straight into 40K or don't have a dedicated fanbase in their own right that the question of whether there is enough demand to support the plastic kit is not an unequivocal "Yes!"
decker_cky wrote: Looking at blood bowl for example, in terms of third parties, 100 euros is pretty much the price you expect to pay for a full squad of 16. If GW do an excellent team, I'd probably pay a bit more than that.
If their is any game a new Necromunda would compete with, it's not judge dread it is Infinity. Infinity is just played more consistently and supported more consistently across many FLGS. I also feel it's safe to say infinity will be a better game then what ever GW puts out.
But Necromuda will still do realy well. Why? Because Necromunda is still a very strong IP.
decker_cky wrote: What world are you living in that 10 high quality models for a skirmish game don't cost $80? For that scale of game, that's kind of what you expect (that's pretty much on par with Malifaux, for example).
There's no reason why a 10 man House Cawdor/Redemptionist gang needs to cost more than a 10 man Kabalite Warrior or Wych squad. I'd argue the same is true of House Escher, at least - a good plastic kit would sell a ton to people wanting to bulk out their TGG Jailbirds with cheaper plastic rank and file on top of the usual fans, I'm sure. It's only once you hit the gangs that cannot be slotted straight into 40K or don't have a dedicated fanbase in their own right that the question of whether there is enough demand to support the plastic kit is not an unequivocal "Yes!"
decker_cky wrote: Looking at blood bowl for example, in terms of third parties, 100 euros is pretty much the price you expect to pay for a full squad of 16. If GW do an excellent team, I'd probably pay a bit more than that.
Well, let's say it costs 10,000$ to design & produce a 10 man plastic kit (10 kabalite warriors or 10 Cawdor gangers). Now let's say that the projected demand of kabalite warriors is 5000 kits and the projected demand of the Cawdor gangers is 1000 kits. It would be reasonable (in my mind, at least) for the company producing these kits to price kabalite warriors at 30$ a box and Cawdor gangers at 50$ a kit.
Azreal13 wrote: There's no need, there's already perfectly good rulesets out in the wild, all we need is straightforward access to appropriate models.
Unless you're talking about fan edits, which I expect GW will explicitly ignore, all of the specialist games I've played(Mordheim, Necromunda and BFG) all have their faults and could use a 2.0. I'd be mildly disappointed if GW simply re-released the last version of the rules they published but I'd be really sad if they did something stupid like make a space marine gang for Necromunda.
Well... A space marine Necromunda gang (not meaning an SM gang in Necromunda itself but a gang in the underhive) could work if we use some of the stuff by Nick Kyme had a salamander fighting in gladiator pits of an underhive
I haven't read past this post... but the Fists -use- to recruit from Necromunda way back in the day..... just putting it out there.
Now I'm kinda torn on this. There are soooo many good looking newish games out there that this feels to little to late. On the other hand, if it was Space Marine (not Epic:A or Epic 40k) and Adeptus Titanicus that was re-released with forgeworld doing the leg work on the rules and the models..... I don't know what to think.
I admit I would be torn on it, I would some how justify it to myself that I'm not buying from GW but from FW. I know it's weak sauce.
I have no problem buying second hand models from people as I would rather help someone else out then GW themselves, but, honestly, release those two games updated and I would buy the rules just to see whats up.
Azreal13 wrote: There's no need, there's already perfectly good rulesets out in the wild, all we need is straightforward access to appropriate models.
Unless you're talking about fan edits, which I expect GW will explicitly ignore, all of the specialist games I've played(Mordheim, Necromunda and BFG) all have their faults and could use a 2.0. I'd be mildly disappointed if GW simply re-released the last version of the rules they published but I'd be really sad if they did something stupid like make a space marine gang for Necromunda.
Well... A space marine Necromunda gang (not meaning an SM gang in Necromunda itself but a gang in the underhive) could work if we use some of the stuff by Nick Kyme had a salamander fighting in gladiator pits of an underhive
I haven't read past this post... but the Fists -use- to recruit from Necromunda way back in the day..... just putting it out there.
Now I'm kinda torn on this. There are soooo many good looking newish games out there that this feels to little to late. On the other hand, if it was Space Marine (not Epic:A or Epic 40k) and Adeptus Titanicus that was re-released with forgeworld doing the leg work on the rules and the models..... I don't know what to think.
I admit I would be torn on it, I would some how justify it to myself that I'm not buying from GW but from FW. I know it's weak sauce.
I have no problem buying second hand models from people as I would rather help someone else out then GW themselves, but, honestly, release those two games updated and I would buy the rules just to see whats up.
Not to mention phanta claws was left on Necromunda by Dorn.
Lockark wrote: If their is any game a new Necromunda would compete with, it's not judge dread it is Infinity. Infinity is just played more consistently and supported more consistently across many FLGS. I also feel it's safe to say infinity will be a better game then what ever GW puts out.
But Necromuda will still do realy well. Why? Because Necromunda is still a very strong IP.
Dreadzone maybe? or Malifaux? Dark age? But i don't know if those games have an EXP. advancement mechanic
Rihgu wrote: Well, let's say it costs 10,000$ to design & produce a 10 man plastic kit (10 kabalite warriors or 10 Cawdor gangers). Now let's say that the projected demand of kabalite warriors is 5000 kits and the projected demand of the Cawdor gangers is 1000 kits. It would be reasonable (in my mind, at least) for the company producing these kits to price kabalite warriors at 30$ a box and Cawdor gangers at 50$ a kit.
If you increase the price by 66% you're not still going to sell 1000 kits. When your costs are mainly in development and not in production, you should not be willingly putting yourself into that death spiral of trying to jack up your prices to make up for how much jacking up the price is driving down your sales.
So all snark aside I still have a few issues with this.
1. Does this mean that GW have renewed there licence with NL for lotr/hobbit?
2. If the answer to 1 is yes does this likely mean they will still be a minimum requirement to release models for these dead games?
3. Will FW be at least doubled in size and given an unlimited budget to increase there glacial pace?
4. If the answer to 3 is no how are FW going to have time to produce all the new stuff people are getting excited about? It has been 4 years since the last real IA book and I am not sure how long since they released a non HH model or a xenos model? They are 100% focused on HH.
Sorry but Rihgu is correct. Business is what I went to school for and do for a living. It all comes down to supply and demand. A smaller production run will end with higher cost and higher retail. A large product run is rewarded with lower cost all around.
This is why a single plastic terminator character is near $30 while a high production set of 5 is about $50.
Specialist games are usually priced higher because there is less demand (thus the specialist label). However... I am not defending gws pricing model. I believe they charge too much for what they provide (yet I buy their product, damn plastic crack). Gw has been looking for their price ceiling, which is the most they can charge before a massive sales drop. Technically smart business if you are a publicly traded company. Poor business if you are in a flooded market (which is why you are seeing a plethora of new games hitting the market).
455_PWR wrote: Gw has been looking for their price ceiling,
...and apparently they're a brontosaurus standing at the bottom of a crater inside the SuperDome.
But bringing back the SGs really is, as we've seen by the overwhelmingly positive response (with a couple of vocal exceptions), an opportunity -- perhaps the last, best opportunity -- for this company to restore its image and rebuild its connection with an entire generation of gamers. On the other hand, if they bring back these beloved games but at ridiculous price points and/or with craptacular rules that are the equivalent of a spit in the eye and a knee to the nuts, that could very well be the final blow. It would be not only a farewell "piss-off" to that generation, but also "and you kids, too" for the younger ones, as well.
So I'm really hoping they get this right. It might be their last chance.
455_PWR wrote: Sorry but Rihgu is correct. Business is what I went to school for and do for a living. It all comes down to supply and demand. A smaller production run will end with higher cost and higher retail. A large product run is rewarded with lower cost all around.
This is why a single plastic terminator character is near $30 while a high production set of 5 is about $50.
It all just comes down to the basic design of the basic / elite / unique hero battleforce scheme that GW uses for its force org. Because there is no game reason to own two of a character you can only ever field one of, most people will only ever buy one, and will never want, say, 30 or 60. But it's not like the designer wants to make 1/50 the amount of money as the guy making a Windrider, right? If it was normal to have 30 Karlaen models, I'm sure there could be a super duper price for him
The other thing is that the expensive plastic clampack heroes in the GW universe are usually made with a lot more pieces than basic troops, though usually few loadout options, because the characters themselves have relics which are tied to them (eg Karlaen always has his thunder hammer, so why give him the possibility of a power sword?). Because there's only *one* in your army, monopose isn't as big a deal. Again, if you needed 30 Karlaens, it would look ridiculous to have them all clones of each other, and in that case, the manufacturer would either make them posable, or make multiple similar models in different poses (like PP does).
The great thing about 40k space marines, though, is that if you don't want to blow $30 on a character or you just don't like the original model, there are tons and tons of bits from other kits that will allow you to make a reasonable facsimile -- sometimes a superior model -- to the character's original model. And, the game ecosystem both supports and encourages that kind of modelling.
On the topic of Specialist Studio, I would be so happy if there were multipart/posable/craftable BloodBowl bits
H.B.M.C. wrote: If Newpic has the best 6mm minis made of all time it won't matter if a squadron of Land Raiders cost its (literal) weight in gold.
This was an issue with the last version of Epic, too. One of the models, the metal Thunderhawk Transporter was so effing expensive for misshapen bar of "not-lead" that people in AMERICA began spincasting copies. Not Russia, not China, but America. Seriously, you have got to be pricing out past Saturn's orbit if recasting by Americas can be profitable. And we're not even talking about the nicer looking FW version, either. And GW wondered why it didn't sell well.
That was probably the Landing Craft which was extremely expensive (IIRC £45 for something approximately the size of a Terminator).
The price isn't necessarily my greatest worry, it will be excessive, the rules are. GW just can't write good rules anymore and the SGs need nothing more than light tweeking, there is a real danger that GW will force 'forging the narrative' style mechanics into the games and turn them into the horrific mess that is 40K.
Incidentally a Marine gang in Necromunda would kill the game stone dead for many veterans. It would make no sense from a fluff perspective and it would completely destroy any semblance of balance.
455_PWR wrote: This is why a single plastic terminator character is near $30 while a high production set of 5 is about $50.
That and Australia's minimum wage.
Silent Puffin? wrote: Incidentally a Marine gang in Necromunda would kill the game stone dead for many veterans. It would make no sense from a fluff perspective and it would completely destroy any semblance of balance.
We once tried it with a squad of Marine Scouts. They were very dangerous!
455_PWR wrote:Specialist games are usually priced higher because there is less demand (thus the specialist label). However... I am not defending gws pricing model. I believe they charge too much for what they provide (yet I buy their product, damn plastic crack). Gw has been looking for their price ceiling, which is the most they can charge before a massive sales drop. Technically smart business if you are a publicly traded company. Poor business if you are in a flooded market (which is why you are seeing a plethora of new games hitting the market).
Everything is priced higher. Literally every release succeeding the next. This despite the market having been 'flooded' for some time now. Pricing is going to break them. Ultimately alexholker is right, there is no production reason for one kit to be priced higher than a similar kit. Part of gw's supply and demand problems is they're trying to be a boutique company selling mass produced/producable items.
Talys wrote:
455_PWR wrote: Sorry but Rihgu is correct. Business is what I went to school for and do for a living. It all comes down to supply and demand. A smaller production run will end with higher cost and higher retail. A large product run is rewarded with lower cost all around.
This is why a single plastic terminator character is near $30 while a high production set of 5 is about $50.
The great thing about 40k space marines, though, is that if you don't want to blow $30 on a character or you just don't like the original model, there are tons and tons of bits from other kits that will allow you to make a reasonable facsimile -- sometimes a superior model -- to the character's original model. And, the game ecosystem both supports and encourages that kind of modelling.
Except doing that is likely to cost you more (potentially significantly more) than the $30 character by themself.
If it was me at GW I'd actually see the price point for Bloodbowl alternatives as a real advantage; given their current pricing (e.g. BaC at £95 for 38 models) I could see them doing Bloodbowl teams for £40-£50, easily undercutting a lot of the third party stuff. That would get them straight back in the market, even without the "official" status, likely high quality of sculpts and possibility of plastic over resin or metal.
The way they pack their sprues these days I could see them fitting a full 16-man team on a single sprue.
I also wonder whether they'll take the opportunity to reinvent some of these properties, rather than just re-release. For example Inquisitor at 28mm scale is really a no-brainer, as it then works as a 40k tie-in, also could be combined with Necromunda (as many have done)
I think no matter how much you like/dislike GW as a moral entity, you can't deny the quality of the physical products even if you baulk at the price.
This new studio can only be a good thing for the hobby in general.
Because if you're still playing the fan-maintained versions of these games, congrats - new mini support.
If you've never played any of these games - you've now got more systems to choose from.
If you have no intention of playing these games at all, chances are you play a game that uses a similar style of mini and so your range just expanded.
I think it's also important to note that this is the first time in a decade at least that GW have openly publicised their direction beyond the next couple of weeks; possible indicator of a change in practice?
Time will tell, I guess.
This is great news. I still have the BFG rulebook and expansions but no models. This will make it 1000x easier and probably cheaper to build up some fleets. Especially if they look at other games and do battle group sets like other systems.
Jadenim wrote: If it was me at GW I'd actually see the price point for Bloodbowl alternatives as a real advantage; given their current pricing (e.g. BaC at £95 for 38 models) I could see them doing Bloodbowl teams for £40-£50, easily undercutting a lot of the third party stuff.
That's still twice as expensive as Impact's Trollcast teams, so that would be a "why bother?" sort of price.
I recall, from YEARS ago, that there was a comment from Forgeworld that they could basically either produce Epic, or produce Horus Hersey. And Heresy just made more money.
Now HH has been, to an extent, taken in by main GW. This will free up Forgeworld to do other things. Could this be the main reason for the SG revival? Forgeworld have likely always wanted to do it, but been too busy sculpting Yet Another MKIV Marine.
Graphite wrote: I recall, from YEARS ago, that there was a comment from Forgeworld that they could basically either produce Epic, or produce Horus Hersey. And Heresy just made more money.
Now HH has been, to an extent, taken in by main GW. This will free up Forgeworld to do other things. Could this be the main reason for the SG revival? Forgeworld have likely always wanted to do it, but been too busy sculpting Yet Another MKIV Marine.
You've got it the wrong way round - Forgeworld is being expanded into this Specialist Design Studio. My own thought its they were doing so well with Heresy and raking in the cash that they've been given much more freedom to run experiments and produce non-core stuff, hence the new studio. They'll still be producing the Horus Heresy.
Graphite wrote: I recall, from YEARS ago, that there was a comment from Forgeworld that they could basically either produce Epic, or produce Horus Hersey. And Heresy just made more money.
Now HH has been, to an extent, taken in by main GW. This will free up Forgeworld to do other things. Could this be the main reason for the SG revival? Forgeworld have likely always wanted to do it, but been too busy sculpting Yet Another MKIV Marine.
You've got it the wrong way round - Forgeworld is being expanded into this Specialist Design Studio. My own thought its they were doing so well with Heresy and raking in the cash that they've been given much more freedom to run experiments and produce non-core stuff, hence the new studio. They'll still be producing the Horus Heresy.
I don't believe Forgeworld are getting this as a reward for "Being good". I really expect a lot of the Horus Heresy model design to shift over to GW main, with a lot of plastic, and Forgeworld's HH output dropping dramatically - maybe not in book terms, but likely in model terms. The shear amount of time they'll save not having to cast that many basic troopers should be immense. So I suspect that this will be to fill the "gap".
Having said that - if this is true, and works out how we hope it does, it may be the only genuinely sensible decision GW have made in about a decade.
Trolls Under the Bridge hit with a cease and desist for their 6mm stuff. They did historical and sci-if I think, just saw it on Yakromunda, apologies if it's been posted.
The problem with Trolls is that they made exact copies of Imperial Guard vehicles, they are still available on Ebay though.
I don't believe Forgeworld are getting this as a reward for "Being good". I really expect a lot of the Horus Heresy model design to shift over to GW main, with a lot of plastic, and Forgeworld's HH output dropping dramatically - maybe not in book terms, but likely in model terms. The shear amount of time they'll save not having to cast that many basic troopers should be immense. So I suspect that this will be to fill the "gap".
Having said that - if this is true, and works out how we hope it does, it may be the only genuinely sensible decision GW have made in about a decade.
Suggest you re-read some of the Rumours and posts being made, esepcially by Hastings and Atia. Horus Heresy is staying where it is and the FW studio is being expanded to include LoTR and old as well as new games and products as well as being given access to do plastics production
methebest wrote: Skipped the last 8 pages so idk if this has come up.
So i spoke with my local manager today, he got the memo, trouble is it says they will be looking into bringing back the older games.(as well as making new ones)
So someone could decide they are not viable and we wont see them again.
Viability depends on a number of factors. Space Hulk 3rd edition was a huge success because the original game had great heritage. GW knew how many they had sold between 1986 and 1998 or whatever its lifespan was. They must have estimated pretty well how many copies they could sell of a new edition, and specced and budgeted it really well.
Space Hulk was a triumph all round. It was a smash success for GW and satisfied players with good rules and great models.
I don't see why GW cannot pull that off with several of the other old SGs. Some of them also present the possibility of good expansion sets. A starter box of Blood Bowl containing Humans versus Orcs would open the gates for producing boxed sets of Elves, Dwarves and so on. A better approach would be to sell a starter set containing the rules and terrain, to be bought alongside one or more boxed sets of teams, and have six different teams available from the start.
What I think thye need to avoid is the idea that every SG can be infinitely extended as a selling line. There is a point at which a game is done and trying to go beyond that brings reducing returns. This is what happened to WHFB and is happening to 40K, I believe.
To summarise, GW have the opportunity and need to fill their massive retail chain that accounts for 2/3rds of company turnover with a variety of games.
They have a back catalogue that can be re-organised and brought up to date with revised rules and new plastic models.
They ought to be able to design some new games as well, without them being crap. If they want to set these within the recognised WH/40K universes, that's fine as long as the rules and figures are good. What they don't want to do is try and milk things beyind their natural life.
Returning again to Space Hulk. First edition was great. Death Wing was a good supplement. The next supplement was a bit crap. The next edition was worse still. It all turned into gak because GW tried to milk it too far, and players gave it up.
Scroll on 15 years and GW were able to launch a completely rejuvenated 3rd edition and had the sense not to try and milk it with endless bits of supplements intended to sell more figures.
Also Hastings pointed out that Calth was already written by the people from whom Neo Specialist Games will be formed. Having access to plastic production capabilities for Standalone Games or even miniature boxes afterwards is what the new team has as a plus over general FW releases. If stuff sells well there is probably no limit to what they can produce.
Adeptus Titanicus with plastic Warlord Titans produced with todays tech? Great, but why limit it to that? With the amount of sprues Betrayal of Calth has, there would be place for entire Titan Legions including Imperator, Warhound and Reaver titans among an entire Knight Household - all with lots of variation.
Back in 1997 the atrocious pricing of Epic's 3rd Ed metal models (5 Shadowswords were as expensive as a plastic 40k Leman Russ kit) killed it within a few months in my area. No one was willing to pay that much for these tiny models. Everyone continued buying 40k instead.
But in plastic Epic can excel when offered in large and cheap amounts. Selling two Titan Legions who fight each other in a standalone box would sell like hotcake. Throw in some cardboard buildings and a good ruleset and people would buy it for sure. One of the big advantages of Epic 1st and 2nd edition was that you could build those large armies for a lot cheaper than in 40k. And it sold because of this. In 3rd ed they did the opposite and it tanked - well and the rules of course were not what the majority of players wanted. But if the miniatures were more affordable people would have bought them anyway.
Mordheim, Necromunda and to a lesser extent Epic all had cardboard buildings. That was a different time though. Printing that sort of stuff now is hella expensive, and GW does it overseas.
Mordheim, Necromunda and to a lesser extent Epic all had cardboard builds. That was a different time though. Printing that sort of stuff now is hella expensive, and GW does it overseas.
Would they do this sort of thing again?
Epic had those plastic ruins from 3rd onward. Necromunda needs terrain and I doubt they'd miss the opportunity to do it in plastic (and flog it to the 40k and 30k as a bonus!)
Warhams-77, zedmeister - Thanks, missed some of those rumours in the avalanche. Interesting. Though I'll have to disagree about 3rd edition Epic - Epic Armageddon was, and is, awesome.
Cardboard terrain? Could be, but I'd say plastic is more likely. They have been putting out the cardboard with Space Hulk and Calth, after all. Blood Bowl almost requires cardboard as it's difficult to see how a plastic pitch would be as good (unless they go the astrogranite route!)
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: The reason why I mentioned Judge Dredd and Star Wars is quell the myth that GW's games sell because they have a strong fluff appeal.
They do. Their two greatest things GW has at their disposal are:
1. Their in-house plastics manufacturing capabilities.
2. Their IP.
They do sell games because of their strong fluff appeal. To say anything contrary to that is to deny reality.
I don't deny 40k's strong background, but other posters were claiming that a strong IP was unique to GW. I cited Star Wars as an example that proves otherwise.
In the history of mankind, I seriously doubt that people stopped selling something because it was too successful, therefore you can only conclude that sales were poor.
People rarely stop selling something because it is too successful (Flappy Bird aside), but that doesn't mean that something being dropped from a range automatically means that it sells badly. There are all sorts of reasons that companies can choose to drop popular products from their range, not least simply because of their chosen business strategy. (See WotC dropping Star Wars Miniatures despite it for a time outselling D&D, so that they could refocus their resources on D&D and MtG).
When the games that later became the 'Specialist' range were released, GW's standard business model was to run with their two core titles, and a third game that would be supported for a time and then replaced. It didn't matter how popular those third games were... once they hit the point where the next game was imminent, the current one would be dropped if it hadn't faded away on its own already.
The Specialist catalogue no doubt sold worse than the individual games did the first time around, but that would be down emtirely to lack of ongoing support and the fact that they were direct-only. Bringing back those games as rotating splash releases with updated rules and miniatures would, I suspect, do far better than adding a 'Specialist' tag on the website and then largely ignoring it did.
I'm unconvinced to be honest. Like I said earlier, I think it's to late in the day for GW to swoop in and act like it's the 90s again. Too much water under the bridge and too many rivals making great games, these days.
methebest wrote: Skipped the last 8 pages so idk if this has come up.
So i spoke with my local manager today, he got the memo, trouble is it says they will be looking into bringing back the older games.(as well as making new ones)
So someone could decide they are not viable and we wont see them again.
Viability depends on a number of factors. Space Hulk 3rd edition was a huge success because the original game had great heritage. GW knew how many they had sold between 1986 and 1998 or whatever its lifespan was. They must have estimated pretty well how many copies they could sell of a new edition, and specced and budgeted it really well.
Space Hulk was a triumph all round. It was a smash success for GW and satisfied players with good rules and great models.
I don't see why GW cannot pull that off with several of the other old SGs. Some of them also present the possibility of good expansion sets. A starter box of Blood Bowl containing Humans versus Orcs would open the gates for producing boxed sets of Elves, Dwarves and so on. A better approach would be to sell a starter set containing the rules and terrain, to be bought alongside one or more boxed sets of teams, and have six different teams available from the start.
What I think thye need to avoid is the idea that every SG can be infinitely extended as a selling line. There is a point at which a game is done and trying to go beyond that brings reducing returns. This is what happened to WHFB and is happening to 40K, I believe.
To summarise, GW have the opportunity and need to fill their massive retail chain that accounts for 2/3rds of company turnover with a variety of games.
They have a back catalogue that can be re-organised and brought up to date with revised rules and new plastic models.
They ought to be able to design some new games as well, without them being crap. If they want to set these within the recognised WH/40K universes, that's fine as long as the rules and figures are good. What they don't want to do is try and milk things beyind their natural life.
Returning again to Space Hulk. First edition was great. Death Wing was a good supplement. The next supplement was a bit crap. The next edition was worse still. It all turned into gak because GW tried to milk it too far, and players gave it up.
Scroll on 15 years and GW were able to launch a completely rejuvenated 3rd edition and had the sense not to try and milk it with endless bits of supplements intended to sell more figures.
Even if GW take a sensible approach, I still remain unconvinced that they can compete with smaller, more nimble rivals.
For example, say GW decided to release a new version of Mordheim for around £80, and it's got rules, and some great miniatures in it, say 10 humans and 10 Skaven, and some ruins.
A high quality release.
But, compare it to Frostgrave, another great rule set for £12 + box of cultists for £20 + wizard for £8 = £40.
Obviously, this is a lot cheaper than the new Mordheim, and it's cheaper still if you split with a friend/gaming group.
Now, if you have the choice between 2 good rulesets, and 2 sets of equal quality miniatures, it's more than likely that people will opt for the cheaper option most times.
The GW brand will help, but new gamers who have never heard of SG or weren't around in the 1990s, may not be all nostalgic.
New gamers who weren't around in the 90's aren't going to be the ones pushing these revitalised SGs(assuming they're good) in clubs & stores around the world though, are they. They're going to be the ones walking in to clubs and stores looking for a skirmish game or a space ship fleet combat game or a sci-fi mass battle wargame and being faced with a choice between on the one hand the active Necromunda//Mordheim/BFG/Epic group with several stubborn old gits like me who've been playing SGs all this time regardless combined with returning vets who have been lured back by said revitalised SGs and any friends they've been able to rope in, and on the other hand whatever small vestigial group is still, through personal preference or sheer bitterness towards GW, clinging to whichever "other game" in the same category had started to get a foothold there beforehand.
Obviously that won't be a universal experience, and it won't be even as close to universal as it was during the 90's, but IMO it will be a fairly ubiquitous one providing FW/SGD do this right.
Which is rather the point; GW's stuff doesn't need to be universally liked, it just needs to be liked by enough people to reach the critical mass whereby it's more likely than not that any club you walk into will have an active and enthusiastic GW scene, at which point inertia takes over. That critical mass is there, enough people like GW's IPs to sustain it, the problem GW had in recent years was they took that inertia for granted and eroded or eliminated all the things that supported it. Restoring SGs, particularly if the FW guys are really given the resources and creative freedom necessary to pull a Heresy-scenario on them, will go a long way.
H.B.M.C. True, plastic is more likely but Space Hulk, EF and Calth have quite a large amount of card board included, in addition to lots of miniatures (especially Calth), thick board even, and they could add papercard buildings to an Epic standalone box instead. The styroform era is surely over though
Space Marine 1st and 2nd and also Titan Legion had paper card buildings with plastic bottom and top so the new Specialist Games team could choose to do this again. 3rd contained plastic ruins, also a probable addition to a box.
Graphite, it was not my intent to badmouth 3rd and 4th ed The rules of 3rd just did not work for many players at that time as they were quite a break from 2nd which was a favourite among tabletop players and GWs third main system with tons of articles in White Dwarf and Citadel Journal. 3rd ended that. Personally I prefer NetEpic (and the original 2nd Ed) and E:A over 3rd Ed which piqued my interest but wasnt what I was looking for at the time. The later Armageddon made the concepts finally work for me.
TheWaspinator wrote: I'm wondering if this stuff is happening because Sigmar bombed and GW is desperate to bring back anything that might sell.
According to the Rumour mongers, this has been in the pipeline since before AoS. Personally, I reckon the incoming CEO came in, saw the sales decline, isn't a fool and actually understood what it meant, looked around and saw the successful parts of the business, turned to them and said "You're doing well. Make me more money - here's more freedom to do it"
No. I can see the possibility of plastic and card buildings (like Necromunda had) for games that require a lot of terrain but for Epic it will probably be all plastic, basically the ruins sprue from Epic:40k but expanded.
I can't see a return of the old style cardstock buildings though.
TheWaspinator wrote: I'm wondering if this stuff is happening because Sigmar bombed and GW is desperate to bring back anything that might sell.
Unlikely. Betrayal at Calth would have had to be at least in the final stages of development before AoS was released, and from Hastings' post this 'new studio' was responsible for it.
More likely reception of BAC has been so good they've decided to press ahead with other projects.
Prior to the LotR years, GW generally had a support model of 40K + WFB + A.N.Other.
With LotR 'done' as a main product line, it looks like they're exploring the 3 line model again, with the output from this new studio as the 3rd.
GW stated they were performing a review of their product lines late last year, and considering the statement they view themselves as a miniatures company, it doesn't take a genius to work out they must know they are sat on a potential goldmine of IP's they've not actively exploited for a decade.
TheWaspinator wrote: I'm wondering if this stuff is happening because Sigmar bombed and GW is desperate to bring back anything that might sell.
According to the Rumour mongers, this has been in the pipeline since before AoS. Personally, I reckon the incoming CEO came in, saw the sales decline, isn't a fool and actually understood what it meant, looked around and saw the successful parts of the business, turned to them and said "You're doing well. Make me more money - here's more freedom to do it"
That would be the common sense approach adopted by 99% of other businesses, but this is GW.
Kirby probably thinks common sense is a Britpop group from the 90s.
Games Workshop had so many rivals in the 80s and 90s, Do_I_Not_Like_That, the independent store catalogues of these times are full of competitors. BattleTech for example was very strong back then, but there were lots of other games available. Every RPG company offered their own tactical (war-)games and also board games in addition to their main ranges.
The German Schmidt Spiele bombarded the market with all kinds of board games mostly just using the Dark Eye brand without any connection to that (in this case locally) successful RPG brand and there was Palladium, TSR, FASA, ICE and many more on the international market. I have catalogues that consist of pages full of that stuff.
Not too mention all the small companies and their tabletop skirmishers like Killzone and later during the end of the 90s direct competitors like Warzone, Chronopia, Demonworld...
It is great to have such a variety available again. I love my Forgefather army from Mantic and that these companies are getting better and better.
But GW was against a strong competiton back then and they did quite well. Many other companies did not and ceased business.
reds8n wrote: .... so we will finally get the long promised plastic Thunderhawk, warhound etc etc.
Just not for 40k
The day we see a plastic thunderhawk, is the same day Scotland wins the football (soccer) world cup, with Lord Lucan presenting the trophy to the Scotland Captain
Frostgrave mighg be a good game. And it might be a whole lot cheaper than a revamped mordeheim. But, good luck finding someone who plays it, or even sell it (outside of UK, where it seems to be doing good). Thats why these specialist games will work, their market presence and name is enormous. Most people only know of GW and only buy products from GW
TheWaspinator wrote: I'm wondering if this stuff is happening because Sigmar bombed and GW is desperate to bring back anything that might sell.
Eh, I think it's more so the changes Rountree wanted to make are starting to come into action. GW may change a lot in the next year.
Hopefully Rountree has figured out that Kirby was insane and Alan Merritt is terrible at his job and will avoid any "advice" those two have.
Hell if this keeps it up I might have a reason to buy a GW product this year.
It's a bit hard to ignore your boss
In one job, I got away with it by relocating 400 miles, but that's not an option for everybody
You ignore him by appealing to his bosses, aka you get the rest of the board on your side and have them shut down Kirby. Can't imagine Kirby is too popular with the shareholders right now.
And if they fire him because he wasn't listening to Kirby, but was still getting results... well that means a better company will likely pick him up.
streetsamurai wrote: Frostgrave mighg be a good game. And it might be a whole lot cheaper than a revamped mordeheim. But, good luck finding someone who plays it, or even sell it (outside of UK, where it seems to be doing good). Thats why these specialist games will work, their market presence and name is enormous. Most people only know of GW and only buy products from GW
I've just been going through my records and hey, bingo! I just found the PDFs for all the Mordheim rules/expansions...and epic...
Oh, look, there's some cheap non-GW minis from a million different companies, that look the part.
So, free rules, and a box of minis for £20 or less. I'm good to go. Who needs GW? Not me. And neither do my friends. Here's some free rules for you.
I'm not saying GW can't pull this off, I'm just saying it's not going to be straightforward as some people think it will be.
I really don't understand some of the negativity here, although I think it's now par for the course no matter the actual good/bad nature of the news from GW.
So, from what I've gathered in between the outpouring of negativity is that Forgeworld is being expanded (ie: more people, more resources) into a new, larger, more integrated department, with the freedom to explore the possibility of bringing back games like Epic, Necromunda, Mordheim, etc. That is brilliant news. Why is that brilliant news? Because the very nature of the fact that they have been imbued with the potential of bringing these old titles back in some form precludes a negative response because even if that new organisation decides that it cannot figure out a cost-effective, profit-making or just an exciting way to bring back, for instance, Epic, that means there will be no change to the current status quo. If that decision is made, we likely won't hear about it, and nothing fundamentally changes from the point we're at now. Therefore, the negativity just seems pathological at this point. Just quit it until we hear something more concrete.
Anyway, regardless, Betrayal at Calth suggests that this new organisation will have access to plastics manufacturing. Again, great news.
Furthermore, it might be that they simply don't bring Epic, Necromunda, Aeronautica, Mordheim, etc, etc back in the forms they were in previously. It might be that they reimagine them in broader formats, like combining Inquisitor and Necromunda, for instance (a popular fan mashup).
It's the possibilities I'm excited about. New epic in plastic? Yes please. But lets see what happens.
To be honest, for all we know the "bringing back" of those games might simply be a cryptic reference to all the videogames currently in development, and they're just transferring this licensing operation over to Forge World as a rebranded separate division. Need to wait to hear more. Nothing wrong with being optimistic about it though.
I love the idea that someone put forward of doing big boxed sets with expansions. No blisters or single characters in plastic, not even separate gang/team boxes, just one big starter box followed by expansions/campaign boxes, a la Deathstorm for 40k, with expansion rules, maybe some terrain, and a couple of gangs/teams. Single models and add-on pieces can be sold in resin through Forge World. Sure, it's more restrictive for the players, but it might be a more sustainable business model by lowering the barrier to entry by keeping it simple for new players, keeping the number of SKUs and shelf space lower and decreasing the risk inherent in doing a ton of products for each range.
godswildcard wrote: Well I just finally broke down after 14 years in the hobby and bought a FW Thunderhawk.
...which by the laws of my luck means a plastic $200 Thunderhawk will be coming out soon.
Glad I could take one for the team. You're all welcome. I only did it for you guys!
On topic, I am wondering if this will be a complete re-vamp of all product lines or if it's just going to be starter boxes and what not.
"That's it guys - we've sold the last one, finally - hit the big button marked Plastic Thunderhawk"
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mymearan wrote: I love the idea that someone put forward of doing big boxed sets with expansions. No blisters or single characters in plastic, not even separate gang/team boxes, just one big starter box followed by expansions/campaign boxes, a la Deathstorm for 40k, with expansion rules, maybe some terrain, and a couple of gangs/teams. Single models can be sold in resin through Forge World. Sure, it's more restrictive for the players, but it might be a sustainable business model.
Indeed, we've seen a little of this already with the dark vengeance expansion boxes.
Warhams-77 wrote: Games Workshop had so many rivals in the 80s and 90s, Do_I_Not_Like_That, the independent store catalogues of these times are full of competitors. BattleTech for example was very strong back then, but there were lots of other games available. Every RPG company offered their own tactical (war-)games and also board games in addition to their main ranges.
The German Schmidt Spiele bombarded the market with all kinds of board games mostly just using the Dark Eye brand without any connection to that (in this case locally) successful RPG brand and there was Palladium, TSR, FASA, ICE and many more on the international market. I have catalogues that consist of pages full of that stuff.
Not too mention all the small companies and their tabletop skirmishers like Killzone and later during the end of the 90s direct competitors like Warzone, Chronopia, Demonworld...
It is great to have such a variety available again. I love my Forgefather army from Mantic and that these companies are getting better and better.
But GW was against a strong competiton back then and they did quite well. Many other companies did not and ceased business.
Back in the 80 and 90's, the other competitors were so tiny and lack of resources to go against anything that GW put forward. Nowadays, other companies can make better games and better quality products with a cheaper price. Other than the nostaglia effect, none of these specialist game is attractive anymore.
I've just been going through my records and hey, bingo! I just found the PDFs for all the Mordheim rules/expansions...and epic...
Oh, look, there's some cheap non-GW minis from a million different companies, that look the part.
So, free rules, and a box of minis for £20 or less. I'm good to go. Who needs GW? Not me. And neither do my friends. Here's some free rules for you.
Whilst it's wonderful that we now have the option to do things like this the "turn-key solution" that a boxed game with commercial support entails shouldn't be overlooked. It might not be of as much interest to us old fogeys but in an age of video games and mass tablet ownership the slightest barrier to entry can be enough to turn away potential customers. If something looks to be a complicated mess then a parent is less likely to pick it up, surely?
Furthermore if one already has a group of friends who play these things then the notion of grabbing some random minis and a handful of PDFs isn't intimidating. That may well not be the case for people who don't have the kind of experience we do.
One of the major strengths of 40K is that it's such an institution. One doesn't have to make friends with some people and slowly move them towards collecting and playing - turn up to nearly any gaming club, anywhere in the world, and chances are someone will have a 40K army ready to go. A packaged, unified product creates that kind of ubiquity in a way alternative minis and PDF collections don't.
Warhams-77 wrote: Games Workshop had so many rivals in the 80s and 90s, Do_I_Not_Like_That, the independent store catalogues of these times are full of competitors. BattleTech for example was very strong back then, but there were lots of other games available. Every RPG company offered their own tactical (war-)games and also board games in addition to their main ranges.
The German Schmidt Spiele bombarded the market with all kinds of board games mostly just using the Dark Eye brand without any connection to that (in this case locally) successful RPG brand and there was Palladium, TSR, FASA, ICE and many more on the international market. I have catalogues that consist of pages full of that stuff.
Not too mention all the small companies and their tabletop skirmishers like Killzone and later during the end of the 90s direct competitors like Warzone, Chronopia, Demonworld...
It is great to have such a variety available again. I love my Forgefather army from Mantic and that these companies are getting better and better.
But GW was against a strong competiton back then and they did quite well. Many other companies did not and ceased business.
Back in the 80 and 90's, the other competitors were so tiny and lack of resources to go against anything that GW put forward. Nowadays, other companies can make better games and better quality products with a cheaper price. Other than the nostaglia effect, none of these specialist game is attractive anymore.
Lol, is it just me, or did you read that previous post and just went "I'm gonna ignore all the other mentioned past competitors"?
I've just been going through my records and hey, bingo! I just found the PDFs for all the Mordheim rules/expansions...and epic...
Oh, look, there's some cheap non-GW minis from a million different companies, that look the part.
So, free rules, and a box of minis for £20 or less. I'm good to go. Who needs GW? Not me. And neither do my friends. Here's some free rules for you.
Whilst it's wonderful that we now have the option to do things like this the "turn-key solution" that a boxed game with commercial support entails shouldn't be overlooked. It might not be of as much interest to us old fogeys but in an age of video games and mass tablet ownership the slightest barrier to entry can be enough to turn away potential customers. If something looks to be a complicated mess then a parent is less likely to pick it up, surely?
Furthermore if one already has a group of friends who play these things then the notion of grabbing some random minis and a handful of PDFs isn't intimidating. That may well not be the case for people who don't have the kind of experience we do.
One of the major strengths of 40K is that it's such an institution. One doesn't have to make friends with some people and slowly move them towards collecting and playing - turn up to nearly any gaming club, anywhere in the world, and chances are someone will have a 40K army ready to go. A packaged, unified product creates that kind of ubiquity in a way alternative minis and PDF collections don't.
I had completely forgotten about video games as a factor working against miniature wargames sales
As much as I like Mordheim, if I were faced with the choice of the videogame or the miniatures game, these days I'd probably opt for the video game.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: I've just been going through my records and hey, bingo! I just found the PDFs for all the Mordheim rules/expansions...and epic...
Oh, look, there's some cheap non-GW minis from a million different companies, that look the part.
So, free rules, and a box of minis for £20 or less. I'm good to go. Who needs GW? Not me. And neither do my friends. Here's some free rules for you.
I'm not saying GW can't pull this off, I'm just saying it's not going to be straightforward as some people think it will be.
Uhh! We get it already.
Give it a rest. Get off the .
[EDIT]: Seems Alpha beat me too it.
[EDIT 2]: I don't think you know what "constructive" means.
streetsamurai wrote: Frostgrave mighg be a good game. And it might be a whole lot cheaper than a revamped mordeheim. But, good luck finding someone who plays it, or even sell it (outside of UK, where it seems to be doing good). Thats why these specialist games will work, their market presence and name is enormous. Most people only know of GW and only buy products from GW
I've just been going through my records and hey, bingo! I just found the PDFs for all the Mordheim rules/expansions...and epic...
Oh, look, there's some cheap non-GW minis from a million different companies, that look the part.
So, free rules, and a box of minis for £20 or less. I'm good to go. Who needs GW? Not me. And neither do my friends. Here's some free rules for you.
I'm not saying GW can't pull this off, I'm just saying it's not going to be straightforward as some people think it will be.
Now let's see how many people in an average gaming group or FLGS community will be willing and able to start playing these old, unsupported versions of games with you, researching alternate models, etc, when they have the option to simply buy a box in a GW store and have everything they need to get going right there... my guess is very few, unless no other option exists. I have done it with Necromunda in my group, but if there was an updated, official version available in a nice box I doubt anyone would have agreed to play the Community Edition with me.
you to gamers and retaliers never happened.
.