Back in the 80 and 90's, the other competitors were so tiny and lack of resources to go against anything that GW put forward. Nowadays, other companies can make better games and better quality products with a cheaper price. Other than the nostaglia effect, none of these specialist game is attractive anymore.
Not sure that is true. Necromunda has some issues with the campaign system, but it is a solid ruleset, Moderheim can be viewed the same.
Epic did have rules problems, the more they messed with it the worse it got, but here is the thing. If you truly want to recreate the horus heresy, as nice as the current forgeworld stuff is, and I've spent a fortune on it, 6mm is the scale that can best represent it on the tabletop. 28mm doesn't really translate the scope of the battles very well.
Warmaster remains to this day the best wargame rules GW has ever produced. It is head and shoulders above most of the market even now in terms of a cohesive, intelligent game.
Anyways sort of on topic-- Heresy Miniatures site exploded with Ganger orders yesterday after this news dropped lol. Clearly there's a good bit of excitement for this going around..
streetsamurai wrote: Frostgrave mighg be a good game. And it might be a whole lot cheaper than a revamped mordeheim. But, good luck finding someone who plays it, or even sell it (outside of UK, where it seems to be doing good). Thats why these specialist games will work, their market presence and name is enormous. Most people only know of GW and only buy products from GW
I've just been going through my records and hey, bingo! I just found the PDFs for all the Mordheim rules/expansions...and epic...
Oh, look, there's some cheap non-GW minis from a million different companies, that look the part.
So, free rules, and a box of minis for £20 or less. I'm good to go. Who needs GW? Not me. And neither do my friends. Here's some free rules for you.
I'm not saying GW can't pull this off, I'm just saying it's not going to be straightforward as some people think it will be.
Now let's see how many people in an average gaming group or FLGS community will be willing and able to start playing these old, unsupported versions of games with you, researching alternate models, etc, when they have the option to simply buy a box in a GW store and have everything they need to get going right there... my guess is very few, unless no other option exists. I have done it with Necromunda in my group, but if there was an updated, official version available in a nice box I doubt anyone would have agreed to play the Community Edition with me.
I could print off half a dozen copies of the PDF and hand them out very quickly, as could most people. Or the tablet option is there for people with tablets or other gadgets.
Hey look, there's wayland games. So that's the minis sorted. That took me less than minute.
If I can do that, then 99% of other gamers could do that.
Mordheim is a very nice set of rules written by some very good games designers. I would be hard to better that rule set.
streetsamurai wrote: Frostgrave mighg be a good game. And it might be a whole lot cheaper than a revamped mordeheim. But, good luck finding someone who plays it, or even sell it (outside of UK, where it seems to be doing good). Thats why these specialist games will work, their market presence and name is enormous. Most people only know of GW and only buy products from GW
I've just been going through my records and hey, bingo! I just found the PDFs for all the Mordheim rules/expansions...and epic...
Oh, look, there's some cheap non-GW minis from a million different companies, that look the part.
So, free rules, and a box of minis for £20 or less. I'm good to go. Who needs GW? Not me. And neither do my friends. Here's some free rules for you.
I'm not saying GW can't pull this off, I'm just saying it's not going to be straightforward as some people think it will be.
Now let's see how many people in an average gaming group or FLGS community will be willing and able to start playing these old, unsupported versions of games with you, researching alternate models, etc, when they have the option to simply buy a box in a GW store and have everything they need to get going right there... my guess is very few, unless no other option exists. I have done it with Necromunda in my group, but if there was an updated, official version available in a nice box I doubt anyone would have agreed to play the Community Edition with me.
I could print off half a dozen copies of the PDF and hand them out very quickly, as could most people. Or the tablet option is there for people with tablets or other gadgets.
Hey look, there's wayland games. So that's the minis sorted. That took me less than minute.
If I can do that, then 99% of other gamers could do that.
Mordheim is a very nice set of rules written by some very good games designers. I would be hard to better that rule set.
I'm not saaying people who are well-versed enough in wargaming to easily be able to identify which documents to download, which minis to buy, etc (this isn't most people btw) can't do it easily. I'm saying that you'll probably have a hard time toting it as a better alternative to a boxed, ready-to-go product.
streetsamurai wrote: Frostgrave mighg be a good game. And it might be a whole lot cheaper than a revamped mordeheim. But, good luck finding someone who plays it, or even sell it (outside of UK, where it seems to be doing good). Thats why these specialist games will work, their market presence and name is enormous. Most people only know of GW and only buy products from GW
I've just been going through my records and hey, bingo! I just found the PDFs for all the Mordheim rules/expansions...and epic...
Oh, look, there's some cheap non-GW minis from a million different companies, that look the part.
So, free rules, and a box of minis for £20 or less. I'm good to go. Who needs GW? Not me. And neither do my friends. Here's some free rules for you.
I'm not saying GW can't pull this off, I'm just saying it's not going to be straightforward as some people think it will be.
Now let's see how many people in an average gaming group or FLGS community will be willing and able to start playing these old, unsupported versions of games with you, researching alternate models, etc, when they have the option to simply buy a box in a GW store and have everything they need to get going right there... my guess is very few, unless no other option exists. I have done it with Necromunda in my group, but if there was an updated, official version available in a nice box I doubt anyone would have agreed to play the Community Edition with me.
It will depend on the community itself, and how good the new game really is. Though, granted, they will to buy at least the rulebook to check the new rules.
Epic would probably be the only one that interested me, as most of the others have almost identical alternatives in abundance. I guess it's just a game of wait and see to see if the other games are competitive in terms of price and whatnot.
zedmeister wrote: Personally, I reckon the incoming CEO came in, saw the sales decline, isn't a fool and actually understood what it meant, looked around and saw the successful parts of the business, turned to them and said "You're doing well. Make me more money - here's more freedom to do it"
It feels weird to be sceptical of a development because it's too sane and makes too much sense, but I guess that's how low my opinion of GW had dropped, and how consistently pants-on-head stupid their policies have been.
NoggintheNog wrote: Not sure that is true. Necromunda has some issues with the campaign system, but it is a solid ruleset, Moderheim can be viewed the same.
If by "some issues", you mean "they were utterly atrocious", I agree entirely. Nothing like coming out of a winning game worse than you went in, because the other player got better post-game injury and income rolls than you.
Back in the 80 and 90's, the other competitors were so tiny and lack of resources to go against anything that GW put forward. Nowadays, other companies can make better games and better quality products with a cheaper price. Other than the nostaglia effect, none of these specialist game is attractive anymore.
GW has always had competitors, good ones too, for a while I was torn between GW and battletech, D+D was also big at the time.
The gaming sections of certain stores were full of stuff that was not GW as well during the late 80s and early 90s.
Games workshop store fronts in busy areas with painted minis in the window, was all that made the difference back then imo, in the UK anyway.
If anything GW has more of a head start on the competitors nowadays than it did back then just because of the 40k IP and thats before you take into account the production capabilities.
There are other really popular IPs as well, mainly star wars at the moment but I doubt that they can keep pumping out new ships none stop for the next few years, even with three new movies coming out.
If these old games are reproduced well and quality rule sets like the Epic ones are reproduced well also, they will be really popular, hell, we have only known about this for a couple of days and look at the hype already.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There are still plenty of "ifs" though.
I would be happy to see an updated (i.e. rebalanced) version of Mortheim, and I can see that some folks are really looking forward to EPIC, BFG, Necromunda or a continuation of LOTR.
I seriously doubt, however, that these will come back with anything else than a hefty price tag attached.
The one Citadel game that I really like is BB and that one needs no GW anymore, at least not for miniatures and rules. Thanks for giving the IP to FFG, though. BB Team Manager is still one of my favorite board games!
Mordheim is a very nice set of rules written by some very good games designers. I would be hard to better that rule set.
Power of nostalgia in action, again.
In fact, it was just a copy and paste from old rules for WFB, with overpriced (and totally useless) armors and random tables so that you could vaguely play small bands of warriors in a campaign mode.
It wasn't that great as a rule system. In fact, games could be very one-sided and become quickly ridiculous with some experience.
It's not so hard to do better, honestly - Frostgrave offers something simple yet fast to play and not having to use bloated rules from an old game system that is utterly not fit for a skirmish mode. Same for other games, actually. Especially Necromunda, which followed the same pattern but from old rules for W40k instead (to be honest, Mordheim was designed as the same pattern of Necromunda, since that last one came out first).
I didn't really expect to see Specialist Games rise from the ashes, but why not. I expect to see new miniatures - that would be the true revolution. About the game system? Well...we'll see.
You ignore him by appealing to his bosses, aka you get the rest of the board on your side and have them shut down Kirby. Can't imagine Kirby is too popular with the shareholders right now.
And if they fire him because he wasn't listening to Kirby, but was still getting results... well that means a better company will likely pick him up.
I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding the relationship between Rountree and Kirby, and the dysfunctional nature of the GW board - Kirby had Rountree installed because he fundamentally agrees with him on everything. Kirby being on the board, and a major shareholder, and in control of the CEO would have raised significant scrutiny from other shareholders just about anywhere else, but the dividends keep the investment funds distracted enough.
Epic did have rules problems, the more they messed with it the worse it got,
Epic:Armageddon is possible the pinnacle of GW games design. Simple rules, 26 pages IIRC, that foster unit synergies and complex game play that produce a believable outcome that is heavily dependent upon player ability. Epic:40k went a bit wrong and prior editions got a bit too bogged down in detail but there is little or nothing that need changed with E:A. The few changes that were required have already been made by the guys at NetEA , who have also created functional army lists for all 40K armies.
The old rules, reformatted with pretty pictures and new army lists, combined with new plastics (say Eldar and Chaos for variety) would be all that would be required for a new Epic box.
It wasn't that great as a rule system. In fact, games could be very one-sided and become quickly ridiculous with some experience.
Having just completed a Mordheim campaign I disagree. There are some issues certainly (not least the uselessness of armour) but overall it is a game that plays well, even in fairly long campaigns.
You ignore him by appealing to his bosses, aka you get the rest of the board on your side and have them shut down Kirby. Can't imagine Kirby is too popular with the shareholders right now.
And if they fire him because he wasn't listening to Kirby, but was still getting results... well that means a better company will likely pick him up.
I think you're fundamentally misunderstanding the relationship between Rountree and Kirby, and the dysfunctional nature of the GW board - Kirby had Rountree installed because he fundamentally agrees with him on everything. Kirby being on the board, and a major shareholder, and in control of the CEO would have raised significant scrutiny from other shareholders just about anywhere else, but the dividends keep the investment funds distracted enough.
No I was speculating. Just as you're speculating, unless you have some sort of solid proof that what you're saying is true?
Mordheim is a very nice set of rules written by some very good games designers. I would be hard to better that rule set.
Power of nostalgia in action, again.
In fact, it was just a copy and paste from old rules for WFB, with overpriced (and totally useless) armors and random tables so that you could vaguely play small bands of warriors in a campaign mode.
It wasn't that great as a rule system. In fact, games could be very one-sided and become quickly ridiculous with some experience.
It's not so hard to do better, honestly - Frostgrave offers something simple yet fast to play and not having to use bloated rules from an old game system that is utterly not fit for a skirmish mode. Same for other games, actually. Especially Necromunda, which followed the same pattern but from old rules for W40k instead (to be honest, Mordheim was designed as the same pattern of Necromunda, since that last one came out first).
I didn't really expect to see Specialist Games rise from the ashes, but why not. I expect to see new miniatures - that would be the true revolution. About the game system? Well...we'll see.
Says the AoS defender. Pardon me while I laugh my bum off.
Crazyterran wrote: A rebalancing of Mordheim would be great. Undead nerf please, thx.
(Though, from what I hear, slings are the scariest things. Never saw them, though; just super vampires and ghouls.)
Slings in Mordheim are extremely cheap, but just as effective as bows, if not better (you can fire twice at short range if you don't move). This was one of the reasons many thought Skaven were overpowered -- people just bought tons of Clanrats armed with slings, daggers and clubs, and swarmed the badly outnumbered enemies. The house rule we used was that wounds from slings gave the victim a +1 armor save, and if they fail that they can take a -1 on their injury roll (less likely to be stunned or go out of action).
Mordheim is great, advancing your warband through a campaign is a blast, but a lot of the rules will need better testing and balancing.
It wasn't that great as a rule system. In fact, games could be very one-sided and become quickly ridiculous with some experience.
Having just completed a Mordheim campaign I disagree. There are some issues certainly (not least the uselessness of armour) but overall it is a game that plays well, even in fairly long campaigns.
From the campaign I've been in, it really isn't. It has the same "rich get richer, poor get poorer" issue as Necromunda, losing all your Heroes to a turn of bad dice would shaft you in the post-game, as would suffering some unlucky deaths early on, and Skaven were game-breakers; some scenarios against them weren't even interactive. Good idea, but it needs a LOT of work.
Necromunda's system isn't very balanced either. I think the most you could expect to ever get was T4 on one of your regular gangers, yet they allowed in heavy weapons like plasma guns, missile launchers and lascannons into the rules, which mean to wound you'd only need a 2 and you'd take down anyone you hit. They should have stuck with this being more a gang war type situation where the pinnacle of weaponry that one could hope to get would be a lasgun in brand new condition. They could have had a bunch of other esoteric items, but just make sure they weren't game breaking.
Group of friends and I played one game once as a trip down memory lane. Now we're much happier playing Infinity, thanks very much.
It wasn't that great as a rule system. In fact, games could be very one-sided and become quickly ridiculous with some experience.
Having just completed a Mordheim campaign I disagree. There are some issues certainly (not least the uselessness of armour) but overall it is a game that plays well, even in fairly long campaigns.
From the campaign I've been in, it really isn't. It has the same "rich get richer, poor get poorer" issue as Necromunda, losing all your Heroes to a turn of bad dice would shaft you in the post-game, as would suffering some unlucky deaths early on, and Skaven were game-breakers; some scenarios against them weren't even interactive. Good idea, but it needs a LOT of work.
Skaven can be easily brought to rein with a few, minor tweaks. Same for Shadow Warriors, before you even consider bringing them up. Also, a single scenario victory for the underdog can change things drastically in the financial side.
Also, considering that you're in a wargaming forum, basing your reasoning that a game is bad just because you can get shafted by dice is... well, I don't know how to put it. Besides, you can't lose ALL your heroes in a single turn of dice roll if you know how to play, since learning how to protect your heroes is basic Mordheim tactics. Learning when to quit the field, too. Forced routing is your friend.
If you're consistently getting all your heroes taken out of action in one match, you seriously need to rethink your strategy.
If this pans out then GW will have made what I consider to be two good moves in 2015, as well as the complete and utter boondoggle that was Age of Sigmar.
With any luck, maybe Warhammer will be moved to Specialist as well.
The other good move is Warhammer 30,000 getting an official box - though I am waiting on how the rules look before building my hopes up.
Necromunda... I know some folks that are going to be very, very happy.
Fenriswulf wrote: Necromunda's system isn't very balanced either. I think the most you could expect to ever get was T4 on one of your regular gangers, yet they allowed in heavy weapons like plasma guns, missile launchers and lascannons into the rules, which mean to wound you'd only need a 2 and you'd take down anyone you hit. They should have stuck with this being more a gang war type situation where the pinnacle of weaponry that one could hope to get would be a lasgun in brand new condition. They could have had a bunch of other esoteric items, but just make sure they weren't game breaking.
Group of friends and I played one game once as a trip down memory lane. Now we're much happier playing Infinity, thanks very much.
Yeah, they should have had some better defensive options (energy fields?) you could find or buy to give your leader or heavy a chance against plasma or a lascannon! Seemed like there was something, but if so it was probably the rarest archeotech in the underhive.
That, and the random advances that gave your heavy a melee skill every damn time....
Hopefully, if they bring these games back, some of these glaring problems get fixed.
I'm not interested in any more games than what I have already.
However, I'm very excited for my friends that were really into Blood Bowl and Necromunda possibly getting more/new support for games they really likes.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Skaven can be easily brought to rein with a few, minor tweaks. Same for Shadow Warriors, before you even consider bringing them up. Also, a single scenario victory for the underdog can change things drastically in the financial side.
That's the Oberoni Fallacy in action--being able to houserule problems is good, but it doesn't mean there wasn't a problem in the first place, or that it doesn't reflect poorly on the rules as written. I notice you didn't even try to defend armour being a giant noobtrap, as I found out the hard way.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Also, considering that you're in a wargaming forum, basing your reasoning that a game is bad just because you can get shafted by dice is... well, I don't know how to put it. Besides, you can't lose ALL your heroes in a single turn of dice roll if you know how to play, since learning how to protect your heroes is basic Mordheim tactics. Learning when to quit the field, too. Forced routing is your friend.
Good old "lrn2play n00b". I don't think I'll post a battle report, because it was a few years ago, and you'd probably just nitpick it until you could bend it into your narrative of me being a scrub. But if "expendable dude ahead of him, behind cover" doesn't count as protecting heroes, no idea what to tell you. I usually voluntarily routed as soon as the cascade started--because a game should reward actually playing the game as little as possible, I guess?
And sorry to derail your lecture, but I'm not talking about dice rolled in the game where I make actual decisions, I'm talking about the post-game, which is just as bad in Necromunda. Wow, I really trounced those guys--oh wait, someone died and I got bad rolls on the income, turns out my opponent finished ahead of me due to pure luck.
It's worked the other way too--in a later Necromunda campaign, I got through two games (average performance in the games themselves) with no injuries, got some good rolls to get new juves, and rolled a double-xp game. After that, I was pretty much top of the heap, purely down to my superior post-game dice rolling.
zedmeister wrote: Personally, I reckon the incoming CEO came in, saw the sales decline, isn't a fool and actually understood what it meant, looked around and saw the successful parts of the business, turned to them and said "You're doing well. Make me more money - here's more freedom to do it"
It feels weird to be sceptical of a development because it's too sane and makes too much sense, but I guess that's how low my opinion of GW had dropped, and how consistently pants-on-head stupid their policies have been.
NoggintheNog wrote: Not sure that is true. Necromunda has some issues with the campaign system, but it is a solid ruleset, Moderheim can be viewed the same.
If by "some issues", you mean "they were utterly atrocious", I agree entirely. Nothing like coming out of a winning game worse than you went in, because the other player got better post-game injury and income rolls than you.
To me, that's exactly what's so great about Necromunda. A Necromunda campaign isn't a competition, it's trying to survive against the odds. A big part of that is coping with the random or unexpected, like the death of important members of your gang. The unpredictability that shapes the personal story of your gang p is what makes it fun. If one gang becomes too strong, just throw in a special scenario where they have to face two squads of Arbites to bring them down a notch, or several games working together against them, stuff like that.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Skaven can be easily brought to rein with a few, minor tweaks. Same for Shadow Warriors, before you even consider bringing them up. Also, a single scenario victory for the underdog can change things drastically in the financial side.
That's the Oberoni Fallacy in action--being able to houserule problems is good, but it doesn't mean there wasn't a problem in the first place, or that it doesn't reflect poorly on the rules as written. I notice you didn't even try to defend armour being a giant noobtrap, as I found out the hard way.
I didn't know that had a name and had to look it up.
I do take offence at it being named the "Oberoni" Fallacy though as Palladium's Kevin Siembieda has been championing that idea as his mantra since the mid 1980's. He's built his whole company('s flawed rules) based on that idea.
Mymearan wrote: To me, that's exactly what's so great about Necromunda. A Necromunda campaign isn't a competition, it's trying to survive against the odds. A big part of that is coping with the random or unexpected, like the death of important members of your gang. The unpredictability that shapes the personal story of your gang p is what makes it fun.
I agree to a point, but one thing I noticed when getting thrashed in Mordheim and when dominating Necromunda was that those random dice rolls were often more influential than what happened in the actual game. That excessive luck dependence is what I'm objecting to, and what I want to see fixed. Heck, remember the "outlaw" rules from the Necromunda supplement where you could lose all your terrain bar one if you got unlucky on just one roll?
I never said it was perfect but its not fundamentally broken and to be honest I don't think there is a way to make a campaign interesting without the potential for nasty things happening.
angelofvengeance wrote: Anyways sort of on topic-- Heresy Miniatures site exploded with Ganger orders yesterday after this news dropped lol. Clearly there's a good bit of excitement for this going around..
I wonder if the other places I name dropped as being good alternatives for Necromunda figures took a sale bump? I'm glad Andy picked up some business. Things have been slow according to his tweets and FB posts.
I'm glad my thoughts on the release model are well-received.. I just hope GW sees it that way :/ Death by blister packs is a 2-way street and nice bite sized boxes should offset that.
A lot of people are throwing out ideas about what will and won't get in the way and it's starting to feel a bit "Fox News/CNN" in here. Assuming anything will or won't be a barrier is presumptuous. There's a 40k MMOFPS in open/closed/premium Alpha right now, which I presume will be at least fairly popular when it launches (I'm not fond of it currently). Thinking back though, Warhammer Age of Reckoning and Dawn of War had big launches and from what I saw in shops, they actually brought more people in. I still run into people every now and then who know about Dawn of War but are only loosely aware or completely unaware of 40k.
The old SG rules at the time were awesome. I say that in the same way that I say the Tim Burton Batman films were awesome or Goldeneye 64. We remember those things fondly, but as someone who still plays Mordheim, those rules are far from perfect and very open to exploitation if you're in a cheeky group (I'm not..it's me and my kids out here in the middle of nowhere).
Anyway, I think we've hit our infinite loop of empty comments so I think I might be done with this particular stick of gum.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Skaven can be easily brought to rein with a few, minor tweaks. Same for Shadow Warriors, before you even consider bringing them up. Also, a single scenario victory for the underdog can change things drastically in the financial side.
That's the Oberoni Fallacy in action--being able to houserule problems is good, but it doesn't mean there wasn't a problem in the first place, or that it doesn't reflect poorly on the rules as written. I notice you didn't even try to defend armour being a giant noobtrap, as I found out the hard way.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Also, considering that you're in a wargaming forum, basing your reasoning that a game is bad just because you can get shafted by dice is... well, I don't know how to put it. Besides, you can't lose ALL your heroes in a single turn of dice roll if you know how to play, since learning how to protect your heroes is basic Mordheim tactics. Learning when to quit the field, too. Forced routing is your friend.
Good old "lrn2play n00b". I don't think I'll post a battle report, because it was a few years ago, and you'd probably just nitpick it until you could bend it into your narrative of me being a scrub. But if "expendable dude ahead of him, behind cover" doesn't count as protecting heroes, no idea what to tell you. I usually voluntarily routed as soon as the cascade started--because a game should reward actually playing the game as little as possible, I guess?
And sorry to derail your lecture, but I'm not talking about dice rolled in the game where I make actual decisions, I'm talking about the post-game, which is just as bad in Necromunda. Wow, I really trounced those guys--oh wait, someone died and I got bad rolls on the income, turns out my opponent finished ahead of me due to pure luck.
It's worked the other way too--in a later Necromunda campaign, I got through two games (average performance in the games themselves) with no injuries, got some good rolls to get new juves, and rolled a double-xp game. After that, I was pretty much top of the heap, purely down to my superior post-game dice rolling.
Oh noes! This game does not follow the same conventions as its parent, thus it must be crap because I didn't automatically succeed in it! How dare they publish such unbalanced crap!!
As I said - and you'd have noticed if you had read what I wrote - You only LOSE your entire group of heroes post game if you don't know how to protect them in the game. If you DO know how to protect they won't ALL be taken out of action in the same match, and thus they won't all be killed by those dastardly naughty dice! But hey, play it as you wish - if you want to risk all your resource-producing units at the same time in a match while having full knowledge that you are taking part of a long term campaign... be my guest.
I never found anything in the basic Necromunda or Mordheim games or indeed the campaigns systems that I would call unbalanced. In the extra bits added on afterwards yes but not just the standard games rules (one word: Elves!).
Skaven slings were a bit much true, as was bow/handgun spam. Anyone choosing dual wielded spears gets hit with a whipping stick.
I read recent an interview with Tuomas Pirinen recently and he said that the expensiveness of armour was intentional.
A bit of tweaking with a mind to expansion/extras and both are good to roll.
Mymearan wrote: To me, that's exactly what's so great about Necromunda. A Necromunda campaign isn't a competition, it's trying to survive against the odds. A big part of that is coping with the random or unexpected, like the death of important members of your gang. The unpredictability that shapes the personal story of your gang p is what makes it fun.
I agree to a point, but one thing I noticed when getting thrashed in Mordheim and when dominating Necromunda was that those random dice rolls were often more influential than what happened in the actual game. That excessive luck dependence is what I'm objecting to, and what I want to see fixed. Heck, remember the "outlaw" rules from the Necromunda supplement where you could lose all your terrain bar one if you got unlucky on just one roll?
Yeah, but that was only if your opponent had reported you to the Watchmen. Of course, we always reported each other to the Watchmen...
Then you got outlawed and had a guild price you had to pay to get back in good graces. Probably the greatest line from any GW rulebook (as I can recall it): "Of course, a real badass gang leader doesn't give a damn about paying off his Guild price anyway, and should complain loudly about how it's too low and should be five or ten times as much."
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Skaven can be easily brought to rein with a few, minor tweaks. Same for Shadow Warriors, before you even consider bringing them up. Also, a single scenario victory for the underdog can change things drastically in the financial side.
That's the Oberoni Fallacy in action--being able to houserule problems is good, but it doesn't mean there wasn't a problem in the first place, or that it doesn't reflect poorly on the rules as written. I notice you didn't even try to defend armour being a giant noobtrap, as I found out the hard way.
Lithlandis Stormcrow wrote: Also, considering that you're in a wargaming forum, basing your reasoning that a game is bad just because you can get shafted by dice is... well, I don't know how to put it. Besides, you can't lose ALL your heroes in a single turn of dice roll if you know how to play, since learning how to protect your heroes is basic Mordheim tactics. Learning when to quit the field, too. Forced routing is your friend.
Good old "lrn2play n00b". I don't think I'll post a battle report, because it was a few years ago, and you'd probably just nitpick it until you could bend it into your narrative of me being a scrub. But if "expendable dude ahead of him, behind cover" doesn't count as protecting heroes, no idea what to tell you. I usually voluntarily routed as soon as the cascade started--because a game should reward actually playing the game as little as possible, I guess?
And sorry to derail your lecture, but I'm not talking about dice rolled in the game where I make actual decisions, I'm talking about the post-game, which is just as bad in Necromunda. Wow, I really trounced those guys--oh wait, someone died and I got bad rolls on the income, turns out my opponent finished ahead of me due to pure luck.
It's worked the other way too--in a later Necromunda campaign, I got through two games (average performance in the games themselves) with no injuries, got some good rolls to get new juves, and rolled a double-xp game. After that, I was pretty much top of the heap, purely down to my superior post-game dice rolling.
Oh noes! This game does not follow the same conventions as its parent, thus it must be crap because I didn't automatically succeed in it! How dare they publish such unbalanced crap!!
As I said - and you'd have noticed if you had read what I wrote - You only LOSE your entire group of heroes post game if you don't know how to protect them in the game. If you DO know how to protect they won't ALL be taken out of action in the same match, and thus they won't all be killed by those dastardly naughty dice! But hey, play it as you wish - if you want to risk all your resource-producing units at the same time in a match while having full knowledge that you are taking part of a long term campaign... be my guest.
Yeah that's the risk/reward balance in Mordheim; you can use your skilled heroes to take down the enemy and go for the win but if they get isolated they're mincemeat. Vampires are an extreme example of this. That's why you have henchmen.
Injury rolls can go anywhere, i'll tell you the tales of the Necromancer that got sent to the pits and returned a one armed, one eyed gladiator!
I've never heard anyone complain about the campaign system for either Necromunda or Mordheim. Good games.
The magic items from the Emporium or whatever it's called are in need of balance. Some of those when combined with specific skills were just not cool. Also, flails.. If you spend any amount of time researching competitive Mordheim, you will see there's some beardiness layered in. Also, make sure you're running off the full rules. The main box book was supplemented by Town Cryer and Annuals. All of that was official so saying anything released in those doesn't count is missing the point of the whole conversation. It would stand to reason that if they do a re-launch vs a reboot, a lot of that will get rolled up and repackaged into a more concise volume. Either way, it all came out of the same design studio which no longer consists of those personalities (..I think.. have to verify all the names)
EDIT: Lithlandis - Escenorama and Kobblestone both have some awesome stuff. I own a bunch of the Escenemorama and it's perfect for Mordheim. They're supposed to have a sci-fi range out soon too... DZ terrain has a lot of that covered though.
So what's inherently wrong with admitting you've made a mistake and trying to put it right?
Hubris has been the hallmark of modern GW, and even a tiny hint that they're over that and prepared to move forward is cause for optimism.
Agreed. The company has made enough bad moves that I could write a small book on them, so I'm not going to complain or be cynical when they start making some good ones.
Kilkrazy wrote: Let's not get bogged down in off-topic niggles about OOP titles.
Wait.. this is about the return of OOP titles.. do you mean we can't talk about the old games that are coming back (potentially) or other OOP games? I'm not trying to be smart but that's a pretty broad restriction on the conversation given the nature of the topic :(
Mordheim Rule #1: Beardy gets the whippy stick. Mordheim Rule #2: ReallyBeardyWeirdy gets both whippy sticks.
GWs technical advancement in plastic whippy sticks since Mordheim came out has increased massively. Beardlings are as flabby and soft as they have always been. Ergo the rules are more effective!
EDIT: Lithlandis - Escenorama and Kobblestone both have some awesome stuff. I own a bunch of the Escenemorama and it's perfect for Mordheim. They're supposed to have a sci-fi range out soon too... DZ terrain has a lot of that covered though.
My wallet now officially hates you!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
notprop wrote: Mordheim Rule #1: Beardy gets the whippy stick.
Mordheim Rule #2: ReallyBeardyWeirdy gets both whippy sticks.
GWs technical advancement in whippy sticks since it came out has increased massive. Beardlings are as flabby and soft as they have always been. Ergo the rules are more effective!
In my groups it's usually:
Players that take to beardy activites get ganked to hell by the rest. We find it much better than the Cease and Desist approach.
Kilkrazy wrote: Let's not get bogged down in off-topic niggles about OOP titles.
Wait.. this is about the return of OOP titles.. do you mean we can't talk about the old games that are coming back (potentially) or other OOP games? I'm not trying to be smart but that's a pretty broad restriction on the conversation given the nature of the topic :(
MLaw, just to clarify, KK is saying let's not get deep into the minutiae of any particular OOP game here - this is a broader discussion thread and we don't know yet where GW will be taking it.
For example, mentioning GorkaMorka and someone's favorite mission is fine, but if two posters were to start going into depth about the mechanics of that game, it's getting a bit off-topic for this N&R post.
I am really looking forward to seeing what GW does here - I think it's their best decision in a decade! They'll be late to the party on some things (I'm all about Dropfleet for my space game fix!), but it might entice me to finally play one of their games again if they were to do something like re-release Bloodbowl or the like.
I am really looking forward to seeing what GW does here - I think it's their best decision in a decade! They'll be late to the party on some things (I'm all about Dropfleet for my space game fix!), but it might entice me to finally play one of their games again if they were to do something like re-release Bloodbowl or the like.
I can already see the money flowing to GW if they make a 30k BFG game. It's not even funny.
Kilkrazy wrote: Let's not get bogged down in off-topic niggles about OOP titles.
Wait.. this is about the return of OOP titles.. do you mean we can't talk about the old games that are coming back (potentially) or other OOP games? I'm not trying to be smart but that's a pretty broad restriction on the conversation given the nature of the topic :(
MLaw, just to clarify, KK is saying let's not get deep into the minutiae of any particular OOP game here - this is a broader discussion thread and we don't know yet where GW will be taking it.
For example, mentioning GorkaMorka and someone's favorite mission is fine, but if two posters were to start going into depth about the mechanics of that game, it's getting a bit off-topic for this N&R post.
I am really looking forward to seeing what GW does here - I think it's their best decision in a decade! They'll be late to the party on some things (I'm all about Dropfleet for my space game fix!), but it might entice me to finally play one of their games again if they were to do something like re-release Bloodbowl or the like.
Ah, ok. That makes sense. It is interesting to think about how people's alternative games will play into these releases. For example.. will Deadzone players come flocking to Necromunda, play both fields, or just give GW the cold shoulder? How will the massive surge of 15mm gaming effect a Epic: Armageddon release? Many of the 15mm retailers sell for prices GW would never even consider. Is the space battle genre saturated to the point of locking out BFG?
I'm also curious if things like Kill Team, City Fight, or the old Bommerz ovur Sulfur Rivur (spelling?) game might be considered for updating here as releases? (The Bommerz game I'm mentioning was an old pre-Aeronautica game that was essentially an dogfight type game between Ork and Imperials).
Too little too late I'm afraid. Some of us sold our fleets, epic armies, BB teams and other items back when it became apparent that GW didnt care about specialist games. We're not going to buy back in and hope that GW doesnt change their mind again about specialist games and dump them in 5 years.
This isnt the 1990's anymore. There are hosts of sold games out there that company's treat their fans much better and support more. Hell, some of my old friends have dusted off their warhammer armies and have tried them out in Kings of War. Its surprising how much fun things can be when a comapny actually supports your ways of playing.
Do you want to be responsible for designing and developing an exciting new range specialist games and models including reimagining some of the old favourites such as Blood Bowl, Battlefleet Gothic and Adeptus Titanicus? Are you driven to produce the highest quality products that always deliver the maximum value? [...]
Middle Earth Product Manager: Nottingham, UK
Do you want to be responsible for designing and developing our exciting range of Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit products including models and books? Are you driven to produce the highest quality products that always deliver the maximum value? [...].
Specialist Brands Writer: Nottingham, UK
Do you want to generate and interpret ideas into interesting and engaging written material that will become part of new Specialist Brands products? Are you excited by the opportunity to develop an idea from concept to a finished publishable product in a creative and collaborative environment? [...]
Specialist Brands Model Designer: Nottingham, UK
Do you want to create fantastic models that will be turned into new Specialist Brands products? Are you excited by the opportunity to develop an idea from concept to finished product in a creative and collaborative environment? [...].
Middle Earth Writer: Nottingham, UK
Do you want to generate and interpret ideas into interesting and engaging written material that will become part of Middle Earth products? Are you excited by the opportunity to develop an idea from concept to a finished publishable product in a creative and collaborative environment? [...].
Middle Earth Model Designer: Nottingham, UK
Do you want to create Fantastic models that will be turned into new Middle Earth products? Are you excited by the opportunity to develop an idea from concept to finished product in a creative and collaborative environment? [...]
thanks to wesadie1969 on BoW who spotted them. It does seem to suggest GW has re-upped for a Tolkein licence of some sort (wonder if they're going back to the older LoTR one which might be cheaper and more flexible? and not keep them lumbered with the slightly ropey hobbit movie designs)
carmachu wrote: Too little too late I'm afraid. Some of us sold our fleets, epic armies, BB teams and other items back when it became apparent that GW didnt care about specialist games. We're not going to buy back in and hope that GW doesnt change their mind again about specialist games and dump them in 5 years.
This isnt the 1990's anymore. There are hosts of sold games out there that company's treat their fans much better and support more. Hell, some of my old friends have dusted off their warhammer armies and have tried them out in Kings of War. Its surprising how much fun things can be when a comapny actually supports your ways of playing.
I appreciate what you're saying, but at this point in time, this is me...
carmachu wrote: Too little too late I'm afraid. Some of us sold our fleets, epic armies, BB teams and other items back when it became apparent that GW didnt care about specialist games.
Yes, you sold them. But that means someone else bought them...
Popping into a GW thread just to say "I don't care" seems to be all the rage these days on Dakka, eh?
Bonus points for plugging an indie company as an alternative.
As far as the idea of supporting SGs through BaC style releases is neat, but requires a number of factors to work that BaC doesn't care about, because it comes on top of a massive range of existing products.
Releasing a two gang Necromunda redux is not going to work the same way. In fact, I would say it would be much better if the new studio would come out with all resin ranges for the revived games before reinforcing the successful ones with plastic boxes.
I absolutely can't wait to see a redone Necromunda(although I'm biased as it's still my core game I play, and haven't played 40k in a few years now). I'd love it if they tied in the Ash Wastes stuff as well. Hopefully there will be a substantial campaign system that allows for different environments and vehicles to facilitate this.
I think they could stand to add a few new factions as well. An expanded scope on the world could be really, really cool and allow for some amazing campaigns.
carmachu wrote: Too little too late I'm afraid. Some of us sold our fleets, epic armies, BB teams and other items back when it became apparent that GW didnt care about specialist games. We're not going to buy back in and hope that GW doesnt change their mind again about specialist games and dump them in 5 years.
This isnt the 1990's anymore. There are hosts of sold games out there that company's treat their fans much better and support more. Hell, some of my old friends have dusted off their warhammer armies and have tried them out in Kings of War. Its surprising how much fun things can be when a comapny actually supports your ways of playing.
As far as the idea of supporting SGs through BaC style releases is neat, but requires a number of factors to work that BaC doesn't care about, because it comes on top of a massive range of existing products.
Releasing a two gang Necromunda redux is not going to work the same way. In fact, I would say it would be much better if the new studio would come out with all resin ranges for the revived games before reinforcing the successful ones with plastic boxes.
Not sure what BaC means.. I did mention in my idea that after the initial release, the individual gangs could be done as standalone boxed sets. I did not mention any of those sets being plastic (though it seems like a direction to go). Is the HH $150 box plastic or resin or both? As to GW resin.. uh.. yeah.. didn't they try that already? Considering GW's heroes that would've been metal or resin are AFAIK being done as plastics now? One of the few things I've bought from them over the last I dunno how long was a Chaos Sorceror, who to my surprise was a plastic kit for a resin price tag.
carmachu wrote: Too little too late I'm afraid. Some of us sold our fleets, epic armies, BB teams and other items back when it became apparent that GW didnt care about specialist games. We're not going to buy back in and hope that GW doesnt change their mind again about specialist games and dump them in 5 years.
This isnt the 1990's anymore. There are hosts of sold games out there that company's treat their fans much better and support more. Hell, some of my old friends have dusted off their warhammer armies and have tried them out in Kings of War. Its surprising how much fun things can be when a comapny actually supports your ways of playing.
I appreciate what you're saying, but at this point in time, this is me...
Spoiler:
I can see both points of view, but love the visual . I'm also very optimistic about this (although cautiously so). It seems like it could be a very good thing, and having their own little creative bubble at GW where they won't be mired in the decision-making that has resulted in AoS and destruction of army organization in 40K, etc, is the best possible outcome for these games! They could still mess it up, but I'm willing to see where it goes
The only way I see this as going down poorly is if Roundtree is removed.
He's apparently been pushing for a dramatic shake-up, and we've been seeing a lot of the effects with the boxed "bundles" that have come out of late with savings built-in.
The bundle boxes are a cunning way of allowing players to buy the same amount of figures for less money without offering cheaper prices. Because there is a perceived extra value, the player is more likely to spend more than he would have otherwise. It also can be a good way of clearing old inventory.
I can see both points of view, but love the visual . I'm also very optimistic about this (although cautiously so). It seems like it could be a very good thing, and having their own little creative bubble at GW where they won't be mired in the decision-making that has resulted in AoS and destruction of army organization in 40K, etc, is the best possible outcome for these games! They could still mess it up, but I'm willing to see where it goes
I'm just curious if they'll screw it up at the level of the FLGS peg. In a world of $30+ monopose single space marine figures, I'm guessing a tiny sprue of two plastic epic rhinos will probably run close to that.
Myself, I am just excited by finally having the chance to finish off my Imperial fleet, construct a Chaos fleet to match it and maybe make a Tau one too, get my old Necromunda stuff dusted off and finally get some more Mordhiem games going in the local area, hell if they become store legal I may even re-enter GW!
And Epic! I have a small SM force (I was given it) which I cannot wait to work on (IE - purchase Imperial Guard and Titans and relegate the SM's to support roles )
His Master's Voice wrote: Popping into a GW thread just to say "I don't care" seems to be all the rage these days on Dakka, eh?
That's every message board everywhere. What has me ready to place people on ignore here are the tiresome explanations of deep personal grudges against a company, and preaching about how we should all have the same weird grudges too.
My approach is that I assess what a company is selling me. If it's a purchase that works for me, I buy it. If not, I don't. Either way, they get the message. Call me crazy.
In this case, the products produced by this new division will be something for me to assess at a later date.
I can see both points of view, but love the visual . I'm also very optimistic about this (although cautiously so). It seems like it could be a very good thing, and having their own little creative bubble at GW where they won't be mired in the decision-making that has resulted in AoS and destruction of army organization in 40K, etc, is the best possible outcome for these games! They could still mess it up, but I'm willing to see where it goes
I'm just curious if they'll screw it up at the level of the FLGS peg. In a world of $30+ monopose single space marine figures, I'm guessing a tiny sprue of two plastic epic rhinos will probably run close to that.
The way GW has been packing sprues lately I would expect to see almost an entire Epic army on one or two sprues.
Wasn't the last version of Epic Adeptus Titanicus? I think if they brought that back it would probably have titans as more of the focus.. maybe coming with 2 full legions? I'll take 10 warhounds please!
Necros wrote: Wasn't the last version of Epic Adeptus Titanicus? I think if they brought that back it would probably have titans as more of the focus.. maybe coming with 2 full legions? I'll take 10 warhounds please!
The first Epic was Adeptus Titanicus, that evolved into Space Marine, and ultimately evolved into Epic Armageddon.
The way GW has been packing sprues lately I would expect to see almost an entire Epic army on one or two sprues.
In the dim mists of time one of the reasons supposedly given for Epic removal as a core game was that as you could get most of an army from a couple of boxes of plastic sprues people just weren't buying enough toy soldiers.
If the new SG only intend to release minimal models (possibly only a boxed game and some expansions) then plastic sprues with a lot of content would be logical. If the plan is to release a fairly wide range for Epic then I could see some reluctance on the part of GW to release armies in a (small) box like they used to, in fact I wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of resin releases.
I am interested to see how GW will revamp these games. They only mentioned some but not all of them. No one seems to recall why these games were given up by GW in the first place. My educated guess is that their profit margins were not high enough to continue and GW only had a limited amount of resources at that time despite being a public company.
Blood Bowl has a strong player base. Its popularity is more than all the rest of the specialist games combined. It will never die. From the business point of view, it is not a profitable game to promote. Over the last number of years, the rules have evolved and reached maturity. Players have learned to bring in proxy and accessories from other companies. All have at least one to two teams to play from one season to another. In BB, all you need is one team and it can last for more than a decade until you get bored with that particular team’s playing style. What kind of profit can a company make? Besides, with its special theme, either one will get interested or not. If GW makes a totally new edition and forces players with a complete set of new rules, most of the fans will possibly get pissed off and pick up other similar football games. There are quite a number on the market.
Battlefleet Gothic once got many people’s attention. Now, the gap is filled by Firestorm Armada. There are also new game coming on the market, such as Halo and Dropfleet. All have rules that make you feel like playing a space war rather than WW1 naval battle as in BFG. Their miniature designs are far more attractive than the typical Gothic design which served no purpose. Why would anyone design a spaceship with so many pillars all over its body? No matter what GW do, no space battle game will match the popularity of Star Wars X-wing or Armada by FFG.
When people talk about a Sci-Fi skirmish game, they mostly refer to Infinity. The only issue that prevents me from trying is the look of these miniatures but the rules are very solid. It is unlikely that any existing Infinity players will switch over to Necromunda. Likely, when a new player makes a choice between the two, Infinity will probably come first.
Malifaux can easily cheat out Mordheim from underneath. That game has such a rich background and varieties of models that it can easily accommodate all tastes. With the ongoing strong support from Wyrd, new storylines and the new campaign system, there is no room for Mordheim to stand unless GW is able to match the same degree of effort. I highly doubt it.
6 mm scale only represents a small portion in the miniature market. One main reason is that it is not fun to paint these tiny figures. Those who claim that they love to paint 6 mm scale are either exceptional or simply lying. This is why no company has captured this market. Rule by itself does not sell. It is the figures that make the profit. Besides, the one for Epic is too random and dependant on chance. Unless GW revamps that entire rule system, the game will stay in the shelf for an unusual long time.
I have to mention Warmaster, another one of my favorite game. It was smashed by GW after 3 months of release. The rules are very good because it is designed by Rick Prestley who now works for Warlord games and has put out the Beyond the Gates of Antares with full support from the company. GW should follow what Warlord is doing for all its games. It is highly unlikely that GW will bring out Warmaster again.
Finally, it looks like Dreadfleet and Man o’war will continue to stay down for a good number of reasons.
My one hope would be a slightly more logical deployment of units on sprues.
IIRC there were two and threes of things on some, or enough to make 4 bases when the unit size was 5 etc etc.
Haven't played since Space Marine though (when the bases were square, the units were on cards and Nids used hexes for their force org) so I may be misrembering.
I can see both points of view, but love the visual . I'm also very optimistic about this (although cautiously so). It seems like it could be a very good thing, and having their own little creative bubble at GW where they won't be mired in the decision-making that has resulted in AoS and destruction of army organization in 40K, etc, is the best possible outcome for these games! They could still mess it up, but I'm willing to see where it goes
I'm just curious if they'll screw it up at the level of the FLGS peg. In a world of $30+ monopose single space marine figures, I'm guessing a tiny sprue of two plastic epic rhinos will probably run close to that.
The way GW has been packing sprues lately I would expect to see almost an entire Epic army on one or two sprues.
That's another reason why I'm interested - having Epic scale models in injection molded plastic could be incredible. And Adeptus Titanicus... this is something I would actually spring for! A table full of small titans... mmmmmm
6 mm scale only represents a small portion in the miniature market. One main reason is that it is not fun to paint these tiny figures. Those who claim that they love to paint 6 mm scale are either exceptional or simply lying. This is why no company has captured this market. Rule by itself does not sell. It is the figures that make the profit. Besides, the one for Epic is too random and dependant on chance. Unless GW revamps that entire rule system, the game will stay in the shelf for an unusual long time.
Infantry and APCs maybe, but we're also looking at Thunderhawk Squadrons, Land Trains, Capitol Imperialis, Titans, battalions of Superheavies etc..
There's plenty of stuff at 6mm that's a blast to paint.
You need Fantasy/Sci Fi 6mm though, if it's historical then there's nothing of the scale needed to be fun.
Yeah, I don't think I'd enjoy painting 6 mm space marines, but I would gladly paint an army full of titans 2"+ tall titans
There are a lot of space ship combat games out there now though, I think BFG might be tougher to pull off or at least bring in new blood, when there's games like X-Wing out there now. There will always be die hards and if the new game is chock full of new models and not just more copies of the same old cruisers then it would probably do well.
Warhams-77 wrote: They can easily put large Epic armies into boxed games if HHBaC is any indication of the amount of sprues of such a set.
This will only work if they redesign the Spare Marine infantry models. The current sculpt is out there in bucketloads and will show up on eBay the moment a new game is brought to market. Such cheap (old-style) bits will sell before FW/SG stuff unless a new and better looking design is created.
I'd really love to see an Inquisitor type game make a comeback, not specifically for the ruleset but for the gorgeous looking minis that they produced for that title.
It was unfortunately a bit before my time. That said, the minis pop up on fleabay (for eye watering prices!) now and again, I really regret not getting a few before specialist games was put to bed the last time.
The Eldar Ranger, Eisenhorn and Artemis were my favourites but I recently learnt that there were even 54mm Kroot and Tau Fire warriors! :O
Given £20 clampacks we have now they'd probably cost the earth if they were recommissioned but I'd love to see what they could achieve, given how lovely the last batch of models were, the clampacks featuring extra sets of weapons, headswaps and gear seemed like a great idea too.
Whilst it's nice to see GW are resurrecting some beloved classics as far as I'm concerned other companies have already stepped up and are doing it just well for far less than GW will charge.
I loved BFG, Mordhiem, Necromunda and Epic back in the 90's but these days I have Star Wars:Armada, Frostgrave, Infinity and various other rules/games that are scratching those itches and I'd rather give my cash to those guys than GW.
notprop wrote:Here's a question: What flavour Epic do we want; 30k or 40k?
SM Legion Tanks or Tau & Tyranids?
Logic says 40k but my heart wants squadrons of Sicaran tanks flying all over the place!
Both?
There's very little 30K specific, most of the big stuff has 40£ rules too, so I think both is feasible. Perhaps with different unit setups?
At that scale, there isn't enough detail on the model to showcase the difference in armor variants. I suggest make models for 40k and then put out 30k specific campaign books to fill that market niche.
As far as the idea of supporting SGs through BaC style releases is neat, but requires a number of factors to work that BaC doesn't care about, because it comes on top of a massive range of existing products.
Releasing a two gang Necromunda redux is not going to work the same way. In fact, I would say it would be much better if the new studio would come out with all resin ranges for the revived games before reinforcing the successful ones with plastic boxes.
Not sure what BaC means..
I did mention in my idea that after the initial release, the individual gangs could be done as standalone boxed sets. I did not mention any of those sets being plastic (though it seems like a direction to go). Is the HH $150 box plastic or resin or both? As to GW resin.. uh.. yeah.. didn't they try that already? Considering GW's heroes that would've been metal or resin are AFAIK being done as plastics now? One of the few things I've bought from them over the last I dunno how long was a Chaos Sorceror, who to my surprise was a plastic kit for a resin price tag.
I'd suspect that plastic characters are way more expensive to produce than resin ones because there are almost no economies of scale compared to regiments. People will buy a maximum of one of each plastic character and no more.
This is perhaps only tangentially related but I'm curious whether the return of SGs will herald the return to encouraging players to build their own terrain.
I find it incredibly strange to see whole boards for sale!
If you are clever you can put six character models into a single sprue that would normally contain 12 normal infantry, then split them into separate packs. This is more expensive than making 12 normal infantry, but it's a lot cheaper than making six separate character figures on individual sprue frames.
The reason why GW character figures cost £20 is because GW.
notprop wrote:Here's a question: What flavour Epic do we want; 30k or 40k?
SM Legion Tanks or Tau & Tyranids?
Logic says 40k but my heart wants squadrons of Sicaran tanks flying all over the place!
Both?
There's very little 30K specific, most of the big stuff has 40£ rules too, so I think both is feasible. Perhaps with different unit setups?
At that scale, there isn't enough detail on the model to showcase the difference in armor variants. I suggest make models for 40k and then put out 30k specific campaign books to fill that market niche.
There's no way I'd even considered they'd produce different armour marks at Epic scale, I suppose they could provide rules for some of the specialist units, but you'd probably use generic Marines with painted shoulders or something to distinguish.
What you'd need to do is something akin to what they do with 40K stuff, where you can have one in the army as a relic, but squadrons of the same thing in a 30K force. That wouldn't work at the scale of Epic, but something along those lines. Models wise a 30K Legion and a 40K Chapter would use almost the same models (perhaps produce Epic Primarchs, maybe?) they'd just need to be organised differently.
This topic made me come out of hiding just to comment here, again.
I actually was introduced to the 40K verse via BFG. I absolutely loved the concept of organic "ships" of the Tyranids, and their ability to literally chew through kilometre-long ships blew me away. Looking forward to playing with my Nids once more, and maybe getting some giant cathedral ships.
For the special characters... I always liked how they did the IG command squad sprue, with lots of options for lots of characters. What if instead of single pose characters they did a generic sprue.. There might only be 1 torso, but a few different legs and shoulder pads and other bits so that you could use other standard marine bodies to decorate and turn into characters too? I'd be more inclined to pay $30 for a a hero model like that, then $30 for 1 monopose guy.
Necros wrote: For the special characters... I always liked how they did the IG command squad sprue, with lots of options for lots of characters. What if instead of single pose characters they did a generic sprue.. There might only be 1 torso, but a few different legs and shoulder pads and other bits so that you could use other standard marine bodies to decorate and turn into characters too? I'd be more inclined to pay $30 for a a hero model like that, then $30 for 1 monopose guy.
That's basically what the Space Marine chapter upgrade sprues are.
Guys.. 3d printing has opened up a lot of doors for 6mm. You might have thought you wouldn't be able to tell much but check out these:
http://www.onslaughtmini.com/#
I know in person those details are small. Very very small.. But there are details that a clever hobbyist can pick out to highlight the differences. I'm not saying 6mm (10mm really) is going to yield amazing GD quality paintjobs, but it is not the small simple geometric field of miniatures we might remember.
That and the terrain comment a post or two up brings up another thing.. Hobbyists.. SG was a hobbyists' best friend. A lot of stuff basically required at least basic conversions and back when I played these in actual stores, people didn't scoff if you showed up with a non-amazing conversion (except that one GD level painter who mocked everything by everyone except himself). There were instructions on building your own terrain, doing your own weapon conversions, building your own tables. When 'Ard Boys and all that other nonsense pushed those players out of the way, a lot of folks took it personal. It didn't happen at the exact time SG was phased out but it was pretty close IIRC. Same era for sure..
There's no way I'd even considered they'd produce different armour marks at Epic scale,
People have sculpted their own. I have seen some really nice homemade MK3 armour and other marine sculpts that are head and shoulders above the old (and older) plastics, which are already in different marks (Mk 6 and 7).
Necros wrote: Yeah, I don't think I'd enjoy painting 6 mm space marines, but I would gladly paint an army full of titans 2"+ tall titans
Even still, GW wasn't exactly consistent with the scale for Epic. By their own admission Infantry was one scale, vehicles another, flyers another, and Titans yet another. While it might be off putting for those who have existing collections, I think its a good opportunity to bring them all into alignment and make the new miniatures properly scaled to one another. The way GW has organize this new division they seem to want it to take the same approach as FW, and I think that means they will want to showcase models. Its hard to do that with little lumpy marines.
If they approached the miniatures as a completely blank slate, with no regard to the previous models, I'd want to see an Emperor titan (which was under sized) approaching the size of the 40k Imperial Knight and everything else scaled accordingly. A lot of what makes it a hobby is the potential for modeling and customization and that's difficult at the 6mm scale. While infantry won't give us much of that, I'd hope the superheavies and vehicles will.
There are a lot of space ship combat games out there now though, I think BFG might be tougher to pull off or at least bring in new blood, when there's games like X-Wing out there now. There will always be die hards and if the new game is chock full of new models and not just more copies of the same old cruisers then it would probably do well.
I think there is something to be said for approaching a revamped BFG in stages, first where it only need a few ships and eventually with larger fleets. Its the same approach FFG has taken with Star Wars Armada I think makes the game more palatable to wallets and lowering the barrier to entry. Also by making the main emphasis of the game on smaller sized engagements and allowing players to escalate the game retains a sense of scope where individual ships are important.
TalonZahn wrote: What if they made Epic in 15mm just to blow everyone's mind?
Also, invalidating everything you already own (in their minds) and making everyone buy the new scale.
MUAHAHHAAHAHAHA!
The weird thing is... I would LOVE that. 40k is so bloated with game sizes, super-heavies, etc... that I think the game itself would be more conducive to play at 15mm. So some weird hybrid game would thrill me, and bankrupt me. :-p Flames of 40k? Ok!
Still, am I and only one other poster here hoping Warhammer Quest will come back?
Nope, I am too. But, as long as they don't introduce Sigmarine characters and continue to include the random event tables (Run to an old dears aid, end up being mugged!)
Ten years, dozens of Kickstarters, and plenty of other board-games later, I still have yet to find a game that matches Warhammer Quest's ambition, and scope/diversity.
It will apparently forever be my go-to campaign game, so a new version would see me throw a pile of money at them barring a catastrophic rules re-write. :-p
TalonZahn wrote: What if they made Epic in 15mm just to blow everyone's mind?
Also, invalidating everything you already own (in their minds) and making everyone buy the new scale.
MUAHAHHAAHAHAHA!
I'd be more likely to buy more than if it stayed 6mm. The way I see it, given GW's technology they should make vehicles and super-heavies multi-part kits and scale the game to accommodate a level of customization where you can distinguish the different sponson options that could conceivably be switched out.
It wouldn't be much differant from some 40k games (or indeed FoW) you see. Lots of models crammed on to a 6x4 table with no room for manoeuvre. It really would loose allot from such a move.
Also painting smaller scales is far easier than larger scales. You achieve allot with simple drybrushing and washes. Once they're on the table you're not going to see much/and detail on them anyway.
Don't get me wrong, I would hope for a return Epic in 6mm.
Although, the 15mm market has not been explored/exploited by GW yet and Epic could really put the hammer down on it.
I understand that the current military games that hold that market don't "usually" compete directly with it, but in my case it would shutdown any other 15mm purchases.
Well.. 15mm already has things that can be fudged into not-40k.. Frankly, I think with the scope of regular 28mm Apocalypse matches, they would hope to shoot even bigger with the scope of Epic... which.. is how it should be anyway. With old Epic pricing our matches ended up being a couple of vehicles, a couple of big stompy things, and a few stands of troops.. So, I'm hoping they make it so that you are intended to field massive amounts and they can offset it by releasing big boxes at more sane prices but requiring a bigger minimum size.
EDIT: Changed my wording.. I'm hoping for 6-10mm epic but that wasn't clear the way I worded it previously.
15mm (1:100) would see a Leman Russ tank at approximately 6cm long. IMHO, that's too big for Epic with their huge tanks. 10mm would be the absolute largest scale for Epic, IMHO.
ced1106 wrote: Still, am I and only one other poster here hoping Warhammer Quest will come back?
Nope. I've been championing that for years. Hell, I think they should've done a one-and-done 2nd Ed of Quest ala the current Space Hulk. Put 8 heroes into one box, put in some special character enemies (ie. roll the Orc and Undead supplements into the one box), and put it out with wonderful new plastics. Would'a been amazing.
There are a lot of space ship combat games out there now though, I think BFG might be tougher to pull off or at least bring in new blood, when there's games like X-Wing out there now. There will always be die hards and if the new game is chock full of new models and not just more copies of the same old cruisers then it would probably do well.
I think there is something to be said for approaching a revamped BFG in stages, first where it only need a few ships and eventually with larger fleets. Its the same approach FFG has taken with Star Wars Armada I think makes the game more palatable to wallets and lowering the barrier to entry. Also by making the main emphasis of the game on smaller sized engagements and allowing players to escalate the game retains a sense of scope where individual ships are important.
I'd much prefer they go the Halo route tbh; give us a box with two opposing fleets just like the original BFG, only with the advantages of modern plastics tech cram the box with ships, eg rather than just 4v4 cruisers, whack in a battleship, a couple of cruiser squadrons, a light cruiser squadron, and a couple of escort blobs for either side. Then they can release themed expansion boxes with other fleets. And they absolutely should just "copy the same old" designs, that aesthetic is part of what makes the game.
Also, since people keep bringing it up; I really think folk are mistaken in assuming the majority of people share this view that all games of a certain type are interchangeable, people like what they like, and if BFG appeals to them they'll play BFG whether they presently play something else or not. If I fancy a chocolate ice-cream, you're not going to persuade me a strawberry ice-cream is equivalent with a "hey, they're both ice-cream, right?" argument.
It wouldn't be much differant from some 40k games (or indeed FoW) you see. Lots of models crammed on to a 6x4 table with no room for manoeuvre. It really would loose allot from such a move.
Also painting smaller scales is far easier than larger scales. You achieve allot with simple drybrushing and washes. Once they're on the table you're not going to see much/and detail on them anyway.
The same is true of Warmasters 10mm figures too.
I think 10mm is more suitable for epic than 15mm. Like you say 15mm is really the scale that a game like 40k should be and that's very different scope than epic. However if we think of epic as being a better way of handling a large Apocalypse game it kinda allows a something just smaller than 15mm to back into a 10mm pretty well.
I think its just important that GW takes advantage of this and fix the scale. They modeled infantry at one scale, tanks yet another, flyers at another, and titans again at another.
For me what's most important are Titans, because they're the models that most distinguish the epic scaled game. None of the epic titan models were modeled to scale with the infantry. The infantry was 6mm, the tank were 1/300th, and the titans were closer to 1/350. As the titans get larger the discrepancy seems greater. Ask yourself, how big does an Emperor class titan model have to be that you could conceivably place 6-10mm infantry models in its battlements? -It should be a model somewhere between a 40k Dreadknight and a 40k Imperial Knight.
Yodhrin - I think it's more about genre.. For example.. I like sci-fi movies.. while I don't automatically like a movie on that merit alone, I will pick a sci-fi film over a rom-com. Moreover, I have a soft spot for space opera. I will pretty much go see a space opera on the sheer fact of it being a space opera alone. Obviously everyone isn't that way but there are a pretty good many people who will see any horror movie.. or any Alien movie.. or any anime.. etc. I don't think anyone was trying to paint with a broad stroke so much as just acknowledging people's tendencies to gravitate towards things they have a predilection for.
Ghaz wrote: 15mm (1:100) would see a Leman Russ tank at approximately 6cm long. IMHO, that's too big for Epic with their huge tanks. 10mm would be the absolute largest scale for Epic, IMHO.
That would work for me. I could use it with dropzone commander then (which I haven't gotten into because none of the factions appeal to me overall) if the rules suck.
ced1106 wrote: Still, am I and only one other poster here hoping Warhammer Quest will come back?
Nope. I've been championing that for years. Hell, I think they should've done a one-and-done 2nd Ed of Quest ala the current Space Hulk. Put 8 heroes into one box, put in some special character enemies (ie. roll the Orc and Undead supplements into the one box), and put it out with wonderful new plastics. Would'a been amazing.
I guess it could happen now.
Are we talking about Advanced HeroQuest? That was one of my favorite games of all time Great solo game, where you could roll up your map sections, explore dungeon, level up, etc. Kind of like a miniatures version of any number of dungeon crawlers for PC/tablet/phone. For some reason, I always find that anything with actual minis is better than on a screen
I always thought they could keep going with expansions for these things, and even use existing model sprues instead of inventing new ones. Would give me an excuse to buy & paint Fantasy models
notprop wrote:Here's a question: What flavour Epic do we want; 30k or 40k?
SM Legion Tanks or Tau & Tyranids?
Logic says 40k but my heart wants squadrons of Sicaran tanks flying all over the place!
Both?
There's very little 30K specific, most of the big stuff has 40£ rules too, so I think both is feasible. Perhaps with different unit setups?
At that scale, there isn't enough detail on the model to showcase the difference in armor variants. I suggest make models for 40k and then put out 30k specific campaign books to fill that market niche.
ced1106 wrote: Still, am I and only one other poster here hoping Warhammer Quest will come back?
Nope. I've been championing that for years. Hell, I think they should've done a one-and-done 2nd Ed of Quest ala the current Space Hulk. Put 8 heroes into one box, put in some special character enemies (ie. roll the Orc and Undead supplements into the one box), and put it out with wonderful new plastics. Would'a been amazing.
I guess it could happen now.
Are we talking about Advanced HeroQuest?
No.
Warhammer Quest.
I'm surprised such a hardcore GWphile doesn't know of it.
ced1106 wrote: Still, am I and only one other poster here hoping Warhammer Quest will come back?
Nope. I've been championing that for years. Hell, I think they should've done a one-and-done 2nd Ed of Quest ala the current Space Hulk. Put 8 heroes into one box, put in some special character enemies (ie. roll the Orc and Undead supplements into the one box), and put it out with wonderful new plastics. Would'a been amazing.
I guess it could happen now.
With dozens of mini expansions with exquisite resin minis and multiple PC packs as far as the eye can see for years, and years, and years...
Azreal13 wrote: With dozens of mini expansions with exquisite resin minis and multiple PC packs as far as the eye can see for years, and years, and years...
I'd be quite happy with a big deluxe box of the same quality as the most recent Space Hulk. If that's all we get, then I'll be fine.
For Epic, I want FW to do Mars and Lucius pattern titans, scaled down from their 28mm versions (or slightly scaled up from the old epic FW lucius reaver and metal GW lucius warlord to be properly scaled vs infantry.
Actually 15mm would be a good idea for epic, everything roughly half the size of the 40 equivalent and there's already a lot of terrain out there on the market thanks to games like FOW. Or, would some of the titans be too big and unwieldy at that size too?
Or for scale, take the new knights and shrink em down to be about the same size and bulk as a terminator, and then go up from there for the titans?
Necros wrote: Actually 15mm would be a good idea for epic, everything roughly half the size of the 40 equivalent and there's already a lot of terrain out there on the market thanks to games like FOW. Or, would some of the titans be too big and unwieldy at that size too?
Are our old BFG ships still going to be any good? I tried to get into the game just before the decided to drop it, and think I still have a Gothic class cruiser around somewhere.
I'd be quite happy with a big deluxe box of the same quality as the most recent Space Hulk. If that's all we get, then I'll be fine.
Yup, they could create themed big boxes instead of all the little packs they had last time. Make the first an original heroes vs orcs box that includes the original 4 archetypes/heroes (or make that 6/8 for variety so people have a choice, whatever works with the amount of sprues they use) and the orc expansion with various orcs, goblins and related goons (save the spiders, minotaurs, and bats for other themed boxes). And the next year they could do an undead themed box (add the old expansion) with 4/6/8 heroes and a variety of skeletons/zombies/ghouls and two or three undead villains. The third box box can be another set of heroes (any permutation of useful archetypes that fits a theme) vs Skaven, or Beatsmen, exploring Lustria, a Kislevite version of a TARDIS-like baba yaga's hut, look for the grail for fun and profit, or raid a dark elves watchtower. I don't care, they could create one box a year for decades. Release them in october so they are ready for christmas and people can regularly add to their collection.
Give each box a set of basic magic items plus themed items and some basic tiles plus a bunch of themed tiles and make it all compatible (so you can mix any boxes you have for variations like in the old game). If they really need smaller expansion they could create veteran hero boxes (sized like a 40k or fantasy troop choice box) related to each of the big boxes with new monopose heroes but give each hero a few hand/weapon and head variations, as well as bits for added details to represent them as veterans. Also some bigger/badder villains and a new deck of item cards (as well as traps and encounters).
The Pathfinder Adventure Card Game seems to have takes the Warhammer Quest idea (one main game with many tiny add-ons) and made it work in a purely card based RPG game.
Talys wrote: Are we talking about Advanced HeroQuest?
Heck, I'd be *very* interested in AHQ as well!
A combat resolution of weapon skill versus... weapon skill?? Not "armor class"??? That was actually novel for the time and... wait, boardgames are STILL having you roll "attack dice" vs "defense dice" or some other number. Go AHQ!
The original AHQ had the same *bleeping* skaven sculpt, so, yeah, add the expansions and some monster variety into AHQ, please!
15mm Epic would be an incredibly stupid idea. Epic is already the game which is most likely to do what GW feared the first time around and cannibalise sales from their existing product lines. The closer Epic gets to 40k scale, the worse that effect would be. Producing both a 15mm Leman Russ and a 28mm Leman Russ is worse than just making a 28mm Leman Russ even if you could do it for free, because by doing that you're splitting the Apocalypse/Epic gaming community in half with two mutually exclusive scales.
Ghaz wrote: 15mm (1:100) would see a Leman Russ tank at approximately 6cm long. IMHO, that's too big for Epic with their huge tanks. 10mm would be the absolute largest scale for Epic, IMHO.
That would work for me. I could use it with dropzone commander then (which I haven't gotten into because none of the factions appeal to me overall) if the rules suck.
You know you can use differant scales for games than the one a manufacturer might have made the game for. 6mm would work fine with 10mm rules with no alteration, both will almost certainly use CM.
Allot of Historical games are non-scale specific. The Battlegroup rules (a personal favourite) for example suggest 15mm and 20mm with advise for conversion to CM at smaller scales.
Anyway I digress, I own about a 15 Epic titans and would be furious if they couldn't be reused. Though I could see the attraction from GWs point of veiw I don't imagine they would be so stupid to upset existing epic players with a scale change, certainly not when that are so capable of nicer models.
It wasn't that great as a rule system. In fact, games could be very one-sided and become quickly ridiculous with some experience.
Having just completed a Mordheim campaign I disagree. There are some issues certainly (not least the uselessness of armour) but overall it is a game that plays well, even in fairly long campaigns.
From the campaign I've been in, it really isn't. It has the same "rich get richer, poor get poorer" issue as Necromunda, losing all your Heroes to a turn of bad dice would shaft you in the post-game, as would suffering some unlucky deaths early on, and Skaven were game-breakers; some scenarios against them weren't even interactive. Good idea, but it needs a LOT of work.
Most of the time, if our opponents were outmatched by our warband, they would sacrifice a few henchmen and then withdraw. Get all your exploration dice, and since you only got to pick six anyways...
And, then you get underdog experience. It was often more rewarding to withdraw and give your opponent whatever you had, especially if it was the whrdstone hunt and you could snag one before you routed.
Talys wrote: Are we talking about Advanced HeroQuest?
Heck, I'd be *very* interested in AHQ as well!
A combat resolution of weapon skill versus... weapon skill?? Not "armor class"??? That was actually novel for the time and... wait, boardgames are STILL having you roll "attack dice" vs "defense dice" or some other number. Go AHQ!
The original AHQ had the same *bleeping* skaven sculpt, so, yeah, add the expansions and some monster variety into AHQ, please!
Heh, I remember those But they had uhhhh... different shields The original Space Hulk had a bazillion of the same genestealer too.
Necros wrote: Actually 15mm would be a good idea for epic, everything roughly half the size of the 40 equivalent and there's already a lot of terrain out there on the market thanks to games like FOW.
A 15mm mini is around 1/4 to 1/3rd the height of a 28mm mini. In a 15mm game you would buy IG infantry in Platoons, in 6mm Epic you buy them in Companies, Epic was always about large armies of tiny men. I have armies in 6, 10, 15 and 27mm scales and for me 6mm is the only practical way to get the kind of armies that Epic demands.
10mm isn't much good either, the model count in DZC is significantly lower than Epic, party due to design philosophy but also because of scale. In DZC infantry are also bought in platoons and that's a bad thing for Epic scale games.
I think that only Titans and Aircraft (maybe) were different scales. The difference between a 6mm Marine and a 6mm Rhino are about the same as the difference between their 28mm counterparts. The same is also true of Leman Russ and Guardsmen.
There is a fair amount of 6mm terrain about, there would be no need to change to 15mm. In fact if they change to that scale they need to call it something else, because it wouldn't be 'epic' any more!
As much as I love the miniatures for DZC, and the concept, it isn't a patch on Epic in terms of a game.
Actually, it's also a very different game; not so much the scale difference (6 to 10 mil) but also in terms of how the game plays. Radically different in fact.
Necros wrote: Actually 15mm would be a good idea for epic, everything roughly half the size of the 40 equivalent and there's already a lot of terrain out there on the market thanks to games like FOW.
A 15mm mini is around 1/4 to 1/3rd the height of a 28mm mini. In a 15mm game you would buy IG infantry in Platoons, in 6mm Epic you buy them in Companies, Epic was always about large armies of tiny men. I have armies in 6, 10, 15 and 27mm scales and for me 6mm is the only practical way to get the kind of armies that Epic demands.
Actually, by its very definition a 15mm mini is half the height of a 28mm. You know, it's what the scale means. Volume, of course, is quite another thing, but height is right there in the name of the scale.
Actually, by its very definition a 15mm mini is half the height of a 28mm. You know, it's what the scale means. Volume, of course, is quite another thing, but height is right there in the name of the scale.
Actually, by its very definition a 15mm mini is half the height of a 28mm. You know, it's what the scale means. Volume, of course, is quite another thing, but height is right there in the name of the scale.
I suspect that the current Epic rules set, while a personal favourite of mine, probably needs to be a little more direct to work with the target market. I'm not averse to that, if it brings in more players.
I'd probably prefer something in 10mm as well. I have pretty much all the official armies and some home brew factions, so it would be a pity not to use them anymore, but at the same time I think well sculpted 10mm could look awesome, like the some of the warmaster range did.
Necros wrote: Actually 15mm would be a good idea for epic, everything roughly half the size of the 40 equivalent and there's already a lot of terrain out there on the market thanks to games like FOW.
A 15mm mini is around 1/4 to 1/3rd the height of a 28mm mini. In a 15mm game you would buy IG infantry in Platoons, in 6mm Epic you buy them in Companies, Epic was always about large armies of tiny men. I have armies in 6, 10, 15 and 27mm scales and for me 6mm is the only practical way to get the kind of armies that Epic demands.
Actually, by its very definition a 15mm mini is half the height of a 28mm. You know, it's what the scale means. Volume, of course, is quite another thing, but height is right there in the name of the scale.
Except of course a large amount of "28mm" figures these days are 35mm from head to foot. eg. GW, Mantic etc. This makes the 15mm figures more like 40% in height in reality.
Personally I'd vote for keeping Epic 6mm, but this time scaling everything properly. In a mass-battle game like Epic I'm not fussed if you can't pick out every detail on Trooper #17, 3rd Platoon, 7th Company of my Guard army, that's what the lovely big Titans and Superheavies are for, or 28mm+ scale games.
Epic is supposed to be, well, epic. I want the scale to be small enough that it would be practical to actually fight the major battles of the Siege of Terra on a normal sized(6-8x4) table, and even 10mm would be too big for that if you did scale the vehicles properly.
Agree that if "Epic" was to be relaunched the original Space marine setting in the Hersy would be ideal.
It would save cost for the bulk of the minis included and to add flavour you could add Character/demon/dreadnoughts etcsprues for each faction to the mix (bring back the rhomboid Land raider mark one).
Of course the follow up would be "battle box" expansions for each race, with a wide selection of infantry , vehicles and possibly a titan. Of course I would love to seea Titan battle box with 6 or more platic epic titans/gargants - I am old enoughto remember the battle Titans box the first time around.
We will have to wait and see, if GW have the corporate will to pull this off no.
draftamike wrote: Necromunda: Glad I held on to all my gangs, bulkheads, and cardstock buildings all these years....kind of excited to see this come to fruition.
But why would you use that kind of terrain nowadays? Buy Mantic city terrain or anything else to make bulkhead littered cities.. This is sorta my issue with rereleasing specialist games as there are tons of people that are nostalgic for these games yet what was stopping people from playing them? Unfortunately, the rules for mordheim and necromunda are both A) Totally outdated and B) Pretty terrible when you play dozens of games with them.. as an above poster said, the campaign system literally breaks down at a very early level. Even Bloodbowl got extremely repetitive mid-season simply due to over half the teams being functionally useless compared to any team with base AGI 4 or stunty
If GW is serious about these systems they need to realize why people barely played (yet vocally supported) these games. Releasing new models won't cut it when there are tons of city-fight skirmish games already out there and, of course, Dreadball.
Well all this prooves that someone in GW managment has an IQ over 70. I wonder who it is, and whyi t took so log for the rest to allow the one person to see the obvious to be able to do it.
I will be generous and admit there might even be two non-morons.
draftamike wrote: Necromunda: Glad I held on to all my gangs, bulkheads, and cardstock buildings all these years....kind of excited to see this come to fruition.
But why would you use that kind of terrain nowadays? Buy Mantic city terrain or anything else to make bulkhead littered cities.. This is sorta my issue with rereleasing specialist games as there are tons of people that are nostalgic for these games yet what was stopping people from playing them? Unfortunately, the rules for mordheim and necromunda are both A) Totally outdated and B) Pretty terrible when you play dozens of games with them.. as an above poster said, the campaign system literally breaks down at a very early level. Even Bloodbowl got extremely repetitive mid-season simply due to over half the teams being functionally useless compared to any team with base AGI 4 or stunty
If GW is serious about these systems they need to realize why people barely played (yet vocally supported) these games. Releasing new models won't cut it when there are tons of city-fight skirmish games already out there and, of course, Dreadball.
Fair enough, but now you're comparing games from the mid-90s to stuff produced almost 20 years later. I'm curious to see how GW will revive those games. I'd imagine they'd update the rules and models. And whilst the competitions is producing some interesting stuff, I still have a feeling that GW can blow a lot of them away. Mantic have very interesting terrain, but their Warpath/Deadzone models scream 2nd edition 40k nostalgia. The often mentioned Judge Dredd models look as if they've been sculpted in the Rogue Trader era. Troublemaker games did some really cool 6mm stuff, but their prints were quite rough, same goes for the fan-made models AAN has been painting. So I'm very curious to see what the big boys will be able to do with that kinda stuff.
All the new jobs for SG just went up and it appears the rainbows and uncornfarts just ended.
In fact it is the worst news possible as they are looking for a lead for the studio who has a bussines and accounting background like the main GW studio.
So they are effectively by definition killing forgeworld and have managed to get people to cheer about it .
In fact the job descriptions are pretty depressing and look like them doubling down on the polices that brought us AoS and the current 40k ruleset.
Every creative enterprise needs some people with some degree of real world, grounded, practical skill.
Otherwise you end up with enterprises like Creature Caster where the sole responsibility lies with a creative and they feth off to "find themselves" halfway through the whole thing, leaving all their customers twisting.
It's perfectly sensible, otherwise we'd end up with a bunch of half finished test sculpts and unfilled ranges as all the artists got half way through then got inspired by something else completely.
I know some people are determined to make this as gloomy as possible, but don't just jump on something perfectly normal and try to spin it into something it isn't.
I will wait and see. Looks like someone at GW has been looking at Kickstarter and all the games that raked in hundreds of thousands of dollars basically feeding off the nostalgia of older GW players.
Most interested in a Warhammer Quest remake or Necromunda plastics.
SeanDrake wrote:All the new jobs for SG just went up and it appears the rainbows and uncornfarts just ended.
In fact it is the worst news possible as they are looking for a lead for the studio who has a bussines and accounting background like the main GW studio.
So they are effectively by definition killing forgeworld and have managed to get people to cheer about it .
In fact the job descriptions are pretty depressing and look like them doubling down on the polices that brought us AoS and the current 40k ruleset.
Azreal13 wrote:FFS
Every creative enterprise needs some people with some degree of real world, grounded, practical skill.
Otherwise you end up with enterprises like Creature Caster where the sole responsibility lies with a creative and they feth off to "find themselves" halfway through the whole thing, leaving all their customers twisting.
It's perfectly sensible, otherwise we'd end up with a bunch of half finished test sculpts and unfilled ranges as all the artists got half way through then got inspired by something else completely.
I know some people are determined to make this as gloomy as possible, but don't just jump on something perfectly normal and try to spin it into something it isn't.
I think we need a little from column a, and a little from column b here. The idea that this might just a way to gw-ify forgeworld isn't that surprising to me.
Every creative enterprise needs some people with some degree of real world, grounded, practical skill.
Otherwise you end up with enterprises like Creature Caster where the sole responsibility lies with a creative and they feth off to "find themselves" halfway through the whole thing, leaving all their customers twisting.
It's perfectly sensible, otherwise we'd end up with a bunch of half finished test sculpts and unfilled ranges as all the artists got half way through then got inspired by something else completely.
I know some people are determined to make this as gloomy as possible, but don't just jump on something perfectly normal and try to spin it into something it isn't.
Funny Forgeworld always seemed to manage previously and in fact it was previously stated there success was due to not doing things like the main studio.
In fact I am pretty sure you mentioned it previously.
I know some people are determind to make this about blind optimism and faith in a company that has spent a decade pissing on it's customers cherrios. But don't jump on somthing as vauge as the information provided and try and spin it into somthing it is not.
Again I repeat for me as a fan of fw this looks bad as they are being pulled into the standard GW structure wit more marketing people/corporate drones than creative people.
As every creative enterprise needs some actual creative people or you end up with dreadfleet or AoS.
Without checking, I'm pretty sure you'll find an analogous role in FW. The demand for someone to control budgets etc probably isn't there, but I bet there's some sort of non-creative oversight that keeps everything from going to gak.
Again, it's perfectly normal, perfectly sensible and no particular cause for concern.
I know some people are determind to make this about blind optimism and faith in a company that has spent a decade pissing on it's customers cherrios.
I'm not one of them, God, if you've seen even a handful of my posts you'll know my attitude towards GW in general, but I've always maintained it is neither blind hatred or devotion, and that I take each situation as it stands and react accordingly.
But don't jump on somthing as vauge as the information provided and try and spin it into somthing it is not.
Pot, meet kettle.
Seriously, you're assuming that the new studio is going to become some great corporate entity based on the fact that it'll need somebody to do the paperwork. Calm down.
Again I repeat for me as a fan of fw this looks bad as they are being pulled into the standard GW structure wit more marketing people/corporate drones than creative people.
As every creative enterprise needs some actual creative people or you end up with dreadfleet or AoS.
There's more job ads for creatives than corporates, how on earth are you jumping to that conclusion? More people, more projects, more product = greater need for administrative staff. It's a fact of near any business of any size.
I'd be more excited that a large number of people involved with FW that have proven their attitude is towards trying to preserve a good gaming experience are going to be a part of this, and less chicken little about the fact they need someone to do all the spreadsheets and paperwork.
SeanDrake wrote: As every creative enterprise needs some actual creative people or you end up with dreadfleet or AoS.
Amusingly....the issue with Dreadfleet is that it was a creative idea rather than just knocking off an old idea and cashing in on nostalgia. People wanted Man-O-War and got a new game, so people didn't snap up copies. While the game is a tad high on the random scale, Dreadfleet is solid value in terms of components and has some very cool mechanics.
SeanDrake wrote: All the new jobs for SG just went up and it appears the rainbows and uncornfarts just ended.
In fact it is the worst news possible as they are looking for a lead for the studio who has a bussines and accounting background like the main GW studio.
So they are effectively by definition killing forgeworld and have managed to get people to cheer about it .
In fact the job descriptions are pretty depressing and look like them doubling down on the polices that brought us AoS and the current 40k ruleset.
Obviously you've never worked in any form of production studio. There is always a project manager with a business degree who is setting up milestones, tasking artists and sculptors, attending meetings to get yelled at, returning from meetings and likely yelling at the people responsible for the area that resulted in the yelling from said meeting, assigning schedules for individual tasks, making sure the concept art for sculpt A is completed and given to Sculptor A when it's supposed to be, etc etc.
That's just how it works. As a creative, I have gone to too many meetings where I had to listen to the business person you're talking about go on and on about charts, milestones, etc.. until I got to the point that I was attending and eventually running those meetings.. it's a necessary evil to make sure large complicated projects are accomplished how and when they are supposed to be to meet deadlines. Meeting deadlines means things go on sale when they're supposed to which means funding is in place when it's supposed to be so the business can go on. You know.. the way businesses that don't rely on Kickstarter operate..
SeanDrake wrote: As every creative enterprise needs some actual creative people or you end up with dreadfleet or AoS.
Amusingly....the issue with Dreadfleet is that it was a creative idea rather than just knocking off an old idea and cashing in on nostalgia. People wanted Man-O-War and got a new game, so people didn't snap up copies. While the game is a tad high on the random scale, Dreadfleet is solid value in terms of components and has some very cool mechanics.
The issue with Dreadfleet is that it didn't have any fleets in it. If they'd stuck with two well defined themes for the two sides - like perhaps a Dwarven fleet of an Ironclad or two, a Gyrocopter Carrier and a Submarine versus a Dark Elf or Undead fleet of similar strength - then I think it would have sold better, as well as having a clear path to produce expansion packs for other fleets.
Dreadfleet was a weird mix of "a crappy version of a self contained specialist game in a box" with none of the support of expansions that made specialist games great. They killed it off before they even had the opportunity to neglect it to death.
When Dreadfleet hit, I didn't really have much interest. I wasn't overly fond of Man-O-War anyway but I think that might've been about the time I was sucked into the CHS case.. or close enough to it for me to still be really really bitter with them. That's why I didn't buy it. I still don't think I would.. it just seems very 2-dimensional. I'd rather play BFG.
SeanDrake wrote: As every creative enterprise needs some actual creative people or you end up with dreadfleet or AoS.
Amusingly....the issue with Dreadfleet is that it was a creative idea rather than just knocking off an old idea and cashing in on nostalgia. People wanted Man-O-War and got a new game, so people didn't snap up copies. While the game is a tad high on the random scale, Dreadfleet is solid value in terms of components and has some very cool mechanics.
The issue with Dreadfleet is that it didn't have any fleets in it. If they'd stuck with two well defined themes for the two sides - like perhaps a Dwarven fleet of an Ironclad or two, a Gyrocopter Carrier and a Submarine versus a Dark Elf or Undead fleet of similar strength - then I think it would have sold better, as well as having a clear path to produce expansion packs for other fleets.
Your complaints here are "it didn't fit the game I wanted" (man-o-war). Dreadfleet, as a self-contained board game, was a solid product (not perfect, but good rules and great components). It was ruined by expectations created by a long defunct game.
Dread Fleet was designed as a one-box game that didn't need expansions. The rules were specific to the selection of ships in the game and wouldn't work as generic fantasy naval rules. It failed partly because a lot of people thought the rules were crap.
GW of course do have in their back catalogue fantasy and Napoleonic navy rules, Man'O'War and Trafalgar, so they could easily use these to make games and launch various fleets as expansion sets.
There is nothing wrong with a single-box complete game, though. It worked well for Space Hulk. Original first edition Spulk was a great game in itself. The first expansion added a couple of neat new weapons, these could have been included in the main box if GW weren't trying to milk the franchise to death in dribs and drabs, but they weren't needed as the first box was a great game anyway. 3rd Edition Spulk was done as a single-box game and was all the better for it, IMO. Expansions to a game are a bit like sequels to a popular film. They tend to get worse until the last one is terrible and spoils the whole thing.
Blood Bowl makes sense as a starter box plus expansion boxes for additional teams who will have different uniforms and playing styles (humans, elves, dwarves and so on.)
Automatically Appended Next Post: I would also add that there is nothing wrong with a game being issued, selling as many as it is going to in five years and going OOP. There is a big advantage to the manufacturer, if he can get a good estimate of sales before setting his production run.
Also, there is a serious danger of a product range becoming stagnant and uncreative if the company just issues more and more expansions. This is what has happened to WHFB and 40K, IMO, and AoS is hardly a gale of fresh air, being so closely based on the other rulesets.
A series of one-off games with different subjects is a great way of revitalising the whole GW brand.
decker_cky wrote: Your complaints here are "it didn't fit the game I wanted" (man-o-war). Dreadfleet, as a self-contained board game, was a solid product (not perfect, but good rules and great components). It was ruined by expectations created by a long defunct game.
AlexHolker wrote: The issue with Dreadfleet is that it didn't have any fleets in it. If they'd stuck with two well defined themes for the two sides - like perhaps a Dwarven fleet of an Ironclad or two, a Gyrocopter Carrier and a Submarine versus a Dark Elf or Undead fleet of similar strength - then I think it would have sold better, as well as having a clear path to produce expansion packs for other fleets.
Your complaints here are "it didn't fit the game I wanted" (man-o-war). Dreadfleet, as a self-contained board game, was a solid product (not perfect, but good rules and great components). It was ruined by expectations created by a long defunct game.
My complaint is that to convince somebody to buy a game it has to meet a certain "stuff I want" threshold, and that it's easier to meet that threshold if the contents follow a theme. Somebody who wants one Dwarf ship is more likely to want three more Dwarf ships than they are to also want a High Elf, Empire, Araby and whatever the Swordfysh was ship, which makes bundling all the ships into one product a strength rather than a weakness.
Kirasu wrote: But why would you use that kind of terrain nowadays?
Because that's what the game was designed for.
Necromunda terrain is great.
It was good for it's time, and wonderful that it came with the selection so you could play straight out of the box.
But, if you've got a few more funds to invest there is some truly stunning MDF and plastic setups around these days, made by half a dozen companies or more.
Type 'Infinity terrain board' into google, then firmly hold the sides of your head to stop your mind from being blown
It seems a vast amount of people here are nostalgic for those old games. If you're nostalgic for them, I'm assuming you played them at some point in the past.
If that's the case, then what happened to your game/figures? Did you sell them? Do you still have them? If you sold them, the question is why? Was the game not good enough or fun enough anymore? If you still have them, then why are you getting so excited again? For a reprint you'll have to buy with slightly altered rules? Does the original you own not work anymore? Have the old figures you bought stopped working?
I'm seriously struggling to see why everyone is so excited. OK, so I understand why some of the newer players who have heard about these "great oldies" but not had a chance to play them are getting excited. If I was one of those people though, I'd be asking if they were so great, why aren't people playing them regularly now if they're so good. It's not like GW took your rulebook and minis away when they stopped "supporting" it. It's not like other companies out there haven't carried on making suitable figures for you.
The more I read Dakka, the more I realise that mini gamers are more like CCG collectors. If a game is stopped being made, people stop playing it. They're only happy when purchasing new stuff.
Maybe GW was right stating that the main part of their HHHobby was buying GW stuff.
If the Necromunda gangs look like the OG minis and not the resculpts, just in modern plastic. God, l'll take one of each (exvept Van Saar). Don't mess up Eschers and Cawdor and Redemptionists, oh god, all the possible IG regiments, =I= warbands, chaos cultist mobs and other stuff this will spawn if they're good. I'll take TEN, if I have to.
BB with better minis. Imagine the Sauri looked like the art and especially the art from the Cyanide game. OMG. Sure, there are tons of great alt teams, but the thought of an all new official Orc team by Brian Nelson in great poses where everyone is as well done as Grimgork.
GW is going to break my heart, but it COULD be sooo good.
SGs are still played, I will be playing Necromunda later today in fact, but when GW abandoned them it became increasingly difficult to find opponents which made more people stop playing which made it harder to find opponents...
There are 2 main positives for GW reinstating SGs; a larger player base and new models. There is also a significant downside; possibly terrible 'improved' rules. I am not excited as such but I am cautiously optimistic that the best standalone games that GW ever made will be making a comeback.
A lot of people who played SGs (and this would probably have been at least 10-15 years ago remember) would still have some of their old stuff in boxes somewhere. Others would have lost or sold them but then SGs have been orphaned for a long time.
I was out of the hobby when these games were still supported but I've since been trying to get my mates to play Necromunda, Mordheim, BFG, BB and Epic for ages. I'm prepared to spend silly amounts of money finding original sculpts on Ebay and building appropriate terrain, but they weren't. Hence, no games. If they were reboxed and everything you need is there for one purchase I'm pretty sure I can convince them to get involved [even if I have to pay for the game!]
It seems a vast amount of people here are nostalgic for those old games. If you're nostalgic for them, I'm assuming you played them at some point in the past.
If that's the case, then what happened to your game/figures? Did you sell them? Do you still have them? If you sold them, the question is why? Was the game not good enough or fun enough anymore? If you still have them, then why are you getting so excited again? For a reprint you'll have to buy with slightly altered rules? Does the original you own not work anymore? Have the old figures you bought stopped working?
I'm seriously struggling to see why everyone is so excited. OK, so I understand why some of the newer players who have heard about these "great oldies" but not had a chance to play them are getting excited. If I was one of those people though, I'd be asking if they were so great, why aren't people playing them regularly now if they're so good. It's not like GW took your rulebook and minis away when they stopped "supporting" it. It's not like other companies out there haven't carried on making suitable figures for you.
The more I read Dakka, the more I realise that mini gamers are more like CCG collectors. If a game is stopped being made, people stop playing it. They're only happy when purchasing new stuff.
Maybe GW was right stating that the main part of their HHHobby was buying GW stuff.
Its not hard to understand, people like these titles, people get excited about these games.
SGs are still played, I will be playing Necromunda later today in fact, but when GW abandoned them it became increasingly difficult to find opponents which made more people stop playing which made it harder to find opponents...
There are 2 main positives for GW reinstating SGs; a larger player base and new models. There is also a significant downside; possibly terrible 'improved' rules. I am not excited as such but I am cautiously optimistic that the best standalone games that GW ever made will be making a comeback.
A lot of people who played SGs (and this would probably have been at least 10-15 years ago remember) would still have some of their old stuff in boxes somewhere. Others would have lost or sold them but then SGs have been orphaned for a long time.
Blood Bowl is still going pretty strong. The world cup that happens every 4 years pulls in a huge crowd for a game that "not supported" and the leagues that exist are innumerable.
Think I heard getting on 1000 players signed up for the World Cup tournament that's coming up?
Although it will be interesting to see what happens when GW release a new version of the rules; probably will allow you to place as many players on the pitch as you want, and there will be plastic kit releases of BB playing Great Demons that fill up a quarter of the board spaces
Pacific wrote: Think I heard getting on 1000 players signed up for the World Cup tournament that's coming up?
Although it will be interesting to see what happens when GW release a new version of the rules; probably will allow you to place as many players on the pitch as you want, and there will be plastic kit releases of BB playing Great Demons that fill up a quarter of the board spaces
Surely you jest, because allowing such things would cannibalize Age of Sigmar models sales!?!?!
It seems a vast amount of people here are nostalgic for those old games. If you're nostalgic for them, I'm assuming you played them at some point in the past.
If that's the case, then what happened to your game/figures? Did you sell them? Do you still have them? If you sold them, the question is why? Was the game not good enough or fun enough anymore? If you still have them, then why are you getting so excited again? For a reprint you'll have to buy with slightly altered rules? Does the original you own not work anymore? Have the old figures you bought stopped working?
I'm seriously struggling to see why everyone is so excited. OK, so I understand why some of the newer players who have heard about these "great oldies" but not had a chance to play them are getting excited. If I was one of those people though, I'd be asking if they were so great, why aren't people playing them regularly now if they're so good. It's not like GW took your rulebook and minis away when they stopped "supporting" it. It's not like other companies out there haven't carried on making suitable figures for you.
The more I read Dakka, the more I realise that mini gamers are more like CCG collectors. If a game is stopped being made, people stop playing it. They're only happy when purchasing new stuff.
Maybe GW was right stating that the main part of their HHHobby was buying GW stuff.
Honestly?
Its complicated.
For one, the GW company environment was different. Specialist games began as off handed support for the games, because they continued to crank them out, one or two every couple of months.
The Heyday, so to speak, before Wart, Tom Foolery, and the other mutts started up their mess. Andy Chambers,Mike McVey, Gav "the kid" Thorpe, Rick Priestley, Jervis Johnson, ( pre- company stooge) as well as legendary sculpting talent, that, even if the stuff wasn't as high as the priced standards of today, was still pretty high up there, but not to the outlandish range that it is today, so you could at least get a deal for the buck. ( 20 guys is a 15.00 set, sort of deals, plus the free give-away and other odds and ends... Campaigns, every couple of months, mini games, etc...)
I'd say that your post lacks in the context of those times. and gamers were more inclined to scratch build, kit-bash, and availability of bits was pretty much without question. The timeline escapes me, but I can say that we had a VAST array of support from the designers, and not to mention the company itself, which did not have the confrontational relationship with fans that it has today.
Support was a given, as well. You could call them up, drop into the local game store, GW store, or what have you, and you'd be able to game without getting shilled.
The Support system from the company was pretty good, from White Dwarf, with its almost every month FREE supplemental, figure, building, etc, to Fanatic Magazine and Fanatic Online, where you could download additional rules, scenery options, ideas, fan written supplemental material for the games, Citadel Journal for serious gaming discussions, kit-bashing ideas, discussions off the water cooler, and general fellowship in magazine form.
Most of us knew that the games were pretty much one offs, but they were gateway games to- 40K and fantasy. You could use the figures, add a few more and bam- there was another squad to supplement your army.
For the record, I have all of the first edition figures for the Necromunda game, sans the special issue figures. I have a number of Mordhiem gangs, a few regimented box sets that were converted over for the Pirate/ Lustria campaign, and the Deathwing figures for their second coming Space Hulk event.
THEN, we can go on and start talking about the RT events, the yearly summer campaigns, the special events, the outright fun that came with those times...
When you see them outright forcing this new crazy stuff today? Yeah, then it was pretty much gold plated and people WANTED it. it might have some rose colored glasses look to it, but there is a heck of a difference in the culture of this company then there is today.
THIS new incarnation of SG? I'll wait and see if they don't crap on it like they have with every other reverse Midas touch they have to the games that were their one time earners.
Pacific wrote: Think I heard getting on 1000 players signed up for the World Cup tournament that's coming up?
Although it will be interesting to see what happens when GW release a new version of the rules; probably will allow you to place as many players on the pitch as you want, and there will be plastic kit releases of BB playing Great Demons that fill up a quarter of the board spaces
And if you want to play with your existing teams, you'll have to do things like actually cheer at the game table with paper towel pompoms to access your special rules. The brand new Sigmarine Saviors team will of course not have to.
Nearly 1000 players? That is mental. Shows how the community can keep a game alive if enough people are interested and have the desire. I guess that is why we see so many fantasy football teams offered by miniature producers and Kickstarters.
The more I read Dakka, the more I realise that mini gamers are more like CCG collectors. If a game is stopped being made, people stop playing it. They're only happy when purchasing new stuff.
Maybe GW was right stating that the main part of their HHHobby was buying GW stuff.
I don't think that is accurate at all. It's more of an issue of if no one is or more importantly can buy it then people stop playing. There will always be player fatigue so some folks will stop playing if a game never gets expansions or new editions but boredom in doing the same thing over and over is natural. What kills a game by definition is the inability to easily get product like when it goes OOP. You'll always have player turnover but the lack of new players because they literally can't get into the game themselves is the bigger issue. You may have a nice collection but being unable to use it reduces both its potential and actual value in most cases... so people sell them once they go oop. I buy/build/paint to PLAY. While I enjoy the hobby aspects, they're ultimately a means to an end.
The more I read Dakka, the more I realise that mini gamers are more like CCG collectors. If a game is stopped being made, people stop playing it. They're only happy when purchasing new stuff.
Maybe GW was right stating that the main part of their HHHobby was buying GW stuff.
My brutha from anutha mutha.
Personally I think the culture of expecting GW to lay on the official triple-stamped minis, constant stream of 'stuff to buy', gaming opportunities, and everything barring the building and painting, is a bit too ingrained at this point. Even to the point that a game 'needing' a constant stream of stuff to buy is not seen or examined as a weird thing, or seen as less alien than gamers themselves providing, organising and hosting games. I don't know if it's helped by the handful of big-box imitators, or the kickstarter preorder hype machine. For some gamers the biggest example of taking control of their hobby seems to be the decision of who they split a pair of starter sets with... or how much they sell the KS extras for.
In the SG player base, there were people who understood that wargaming is not just waiting for companies to drop stuff in their lap (for a price), and people who enjoyed the games too much to simply abandon them, who came to understand that by necessity. So you get fans who not only actively promote and showcase their favoured games, just for the chance of playing them, but maintain the free-download living rulebooks that GW eventually purged from their site (back when even eighth ed was a baleful, murky glow in Tom Kirby's eye), and even slllooowlly build up a range of proxy minis.
But their numbers, compared with the GW market - even the ex-GW market - looking for an official box set? Not huge.
It seems a vast amount of people here are nostalgic for those old games. If you're nostalgic for them, I'm assuming you played them at some point in the past.
If that's the case, then what happened to your game/figures? Did you sell them? Do you still have them? If you sold them, the question is why? Was the game not good enough or fun enough anymore? If you still have them, then why are you getting so excited again? For a reprint you'll have to buy with slightly altered rules? Does the original you own not work anymore? Have the old figures you bought stopped working?
For the old SGs I like to play a gang/mob/warband is only used for one campaign. After that they go on the shelf, for the most part.
The reason for this being that unlike 40K there is progression. The models aren't static chess pieces - they're altered over the course of the campaign to reflect their new equipment and the style of the mob/gang/warband.
Currently I have two Necromunda gangs - Escher and counts-as Orlocks. I'd quite like to field some of the others but getting hold of the minis to do so is a nightmare. Similarly I have Skaven and Reiklanders for Mordheim. I'd like to field some other factions there too but good luck with getting the original models for that!
I could use any old tokens to play these games but without the minis it's nowhere near as engaging.
In answer to your second question regarding the rules of the older games - I have the rules but there's no guarantee that other gamers I meet will. Availability is spotty at best and there's some serious fragmentation to boot. Having a definitive current edition available enhances the likelihood that we're working from the same base.
Flamekebab wrote: For the old SGs I like to play a gang/mob/warband is only used for one campaign. After that they go on the shelf, for the most part.
Spoiler:
The models aren't static chess pieces - they're altered over the course of the campaign to reflect their new equipment and the style of the mob/gang/warband.
To be honest I always thought this was a failing of the SG gang games. Chopping up your meticulously assembled and painted minis after each game is one thing, but where do all the extra equipment bits come from?
I'd like to field some other factions there too but good luck with getting the original models for that!
I can understand for Necromunda, but what's there in Mordheim or Gorkamorka that can't be replaced by the main GW ranges or third parties?
Availability is spotty at best
Are we still talking about the rules?
and there's some serious fragmentation to boot. Having a definitive current edition available enhances the likelihood that we're working from the same base.
Are we talking at all?
Of course, the new rules might be junk...
There'll still be someone who'll love them if that's the case. Trying to convince others that ludo-level mechanics and an encyclopedia of special rules is, like, really cool, while sales figures tumble.
notprop wrote: And there will be someone to bemoan them.
More choice of games and figures can only be a good thing.
So until they are release try not to piss on the chips of those that are excited by this.
Gimgamgoo amd Vermis had some valid and salient points. Your reply of them "pissing on your chips" because they made polite criticisms of both GW and its customers sounds like you might have had your feelings hurt. Also, their comments about what could be negative should be just as welcome as the 20+ pages of what could be positive. It's all speculation, right?
I completely understand the skepticism and have been amazed at the number of people who bemoan what GW is doing with warhammer and 40k while simultaneously saying "of course I'll buy it anyway". I'd be amazed if GW produce anything I'd be willing to buy ever again but if this rejuvenates interest in games i always wanted to play but didnt get a chance too (like BFG and Mordheim) that's a good start.
I think the ideal thing for everyone would have been GW doing a WotSC and allowing fans to completely take control of the rules. Mordheim retroclone with full rebalancing and at cost print on demand pdf anyone? The community is definitely strong enough to take on these kinds of tasks if the threat of legal action isn't an issue.
The models aren't static chess pieces - they're altered over the course of the campaign to reflect their new equipment and the style of the mob/gang/warband.
To be honest I always thought this was a failing of the SG gang games. Chopping up your meticulously assembled and painted minis after each game is one thing, but where do all the extra equipment bits come from?
The fact that miniatures needed to be altered later in the campaign was not sprung on players a few games in - it's in there from the outset. If someone feels like changing the configuration of their 40K army they're expected to have the relevant models. If you don't like WYSIWYG then that's a different conversation entirely.
As for the extra equipment - it used to be available on sprues from GW, back in the days of mail order.
Vermis wrote: I can understand for Necromunda, but what's there in Mordheim or Gorkamorka that can't be replaced by the main GW ranges or third parties?
Counts-as != original models
As much as I'd love to own a third party Rebel Grot Big Lugga to the best of my knowledge such a model doesn't exist. Mordheim had a whole range of metal character models that supplemented its plastic range - again, gone.
and there's some serious fragmentation to boot. Having a definitive current edition available enhances the likelihood that we're working from the same base.
Are we talking at all?
I feel like you're winding me up. Not really called for, mate.
I'll try to explain the point I was trying to make on the rules. Both Mordheim and Necromunda currently have at least two editions each, if not more. Necromunda has the original rules, the Battles in the Underhive rules, the Community Edition, and somewhere in that lots there's also the "Living Rulebook" (which may or may not be the same as Battles in the Underhive - frankly life's too short for me to spend the time finding out ).
Mordheim has the original rulebook, I think there's a "living rulebook", there's also Corheim and other variants that are built on the core rules.
Some of those rule sets have printed copies that can be had on eBay and the like. Others are only available digitally and even then that requires a bit of digging.
All this contrasts quite starkly with a situation in which GW have a set of rules available from them directly. There's a book in the shop or an eBook online. That's the one being used and unless otherwise stated that's what one can expect to be used. That kind of unification has its pros and cons, and frankly I don't know whether I'd trust today's GW not to bungle it - but you asked us what the problems with the current situation were and I did my best to answer.
notprop wrote: And there will be someone to bemoan them.
More choice of games and figures can only be a good thing.
So until they are release try not to piss on the chips of those that are excited by this.
Gimgamgoo amd Vermis had some valid and salient points. Your reply of them "pissing on your chips" because they made polite criticisms of both GW and its customers sounds like you might have had your feelings hurt. Also, their comments about what could be negative should be just as welcome as the 20+ pages of what could be positive. It's all speculation, right?
Yes because generalisations, condescension and dismissing the views other posters is valid and salient.
Still those sorts of things will always find reception with some back slapping chump not quite brave enough to offer their own opinion on a top. And that, I think, is where you came in.....right?
It seems a vast amount of people here are nostalgic for those old games. If you're nostalgic for them, I'm assuming you played them at some point in the past.
If that's the case, then what happened to your game/figures? Did you sell them? Do you still have them? If you sold them, the question is why? Was the game not good enough or fun enough anymore? If you still have them, then why are you getting so excited again? For a reprint you'll have to buy with slightly altered rules? Does the original you own not work anymore? Have the old figures you bought stopped working?
I'm seriously struggling to see why everyone is so excited. OK, so I understand why some of the newer players who have heard about these "great oldies" but not had a chance to play them are getting excited. If I was one of those people though, I'd be asking if they were so great, why aren't people playing them regularly now if they're so good. It's not like GW took your rulebook and minis away when they stopped "supporting" it. It's not like other companies out there haven't carried on making suitable figures for you.
The more I read Dakka, the more I realise that mini gamers are more like CCG collectors. If a game is stopped being made, people stop playing it. They're only happy when purchasing new stuff.
Maybe GW was right stating that the main part of their HHHobby was buying GW stuff.
I'm going to do you the courtesy of assuming that it's merely my flawed perception that makes it look like your post is so dripping with condescension you could use it to bring life to the desert when I answer your definitely-not-rhetorical-devices questions.
I am very excited for the potential of this new division. I have, at one time or another, played Mordheim, Necromunda, Epic, Inquisitor, BFG, and GorkaMorka. All of those games bar GorkaMorka are legally available online for free. As to why someone would be interested in new models/rules, lets ignore that people have been giving examples since page one and list a few for you:
*They played the games when they were young and through carelessness/theft/moving away from home have lost their rules and/or models.
*They played the games but were unable to get hold of all the factions/models/supplements they wanted before GW canned them and now cannot afford the insane ebay prices for OOP Specialist Games models.
*They found the games appealing but were doing other projects when they were available and didn't want to go to the effort of reviving an unsupported game in their local group.
*They still play the games today and are looking forward to the prospect of lots of new players joining their campaigns.
*They are excited by the possibility of seeing their favourite factions from Ye Olden Dayes rendered using modern plastic & resin tech.
It seems a vast amount of people here are nostalgic for those old games. If you're nostalgic for them, I'm assuming you played them at some point in the past. If that's the case, then what happened to your game/figures? Did you sell them? Do you still have them? If you sold them, the question is why? Was the game not good enough or fun enough anymore? If you still have them, then why are you getting so excited again? For a reprint you'll have to buy with slightly altered rules? Does the original you own not work anymore? Have the old figures you bought stopped working?
I still have my BFG ships and play semi-regularly. But the thing is, I want to expand my collection, and try to recruit new players as to not play same guy every time. Can't do either if there are no miniatures in production, hence the excitement. It's not complicated at all.
Breotan wrote: So, has this made the rounds yet? If not, then I has a rumor.
Yes, please! Announce these ASAP so I can plan accordingly. Here I thought 2016 was exclusively about building two more KoW armies, but Epic changes everything.
SeanDrake wrote: All the new jobs for SG just went up and it appears the rainbows and uncornfarts just ended.
In fact it is the worst news possible as they are looking for a lead for the studio who has a bussines and accounting background like the main GW studio.
So they are effectively by definition killing forgeworld and have managed to get people to cheer about it .
In fact the job descriptions are pretty depressing and look like them doubling down on the polices that brought us AoS and the current 40k ruleset.
Obviously you've never worked in any form of production studio. There is always a project manager with a business degree who is setting up milestones, tasking artists and sculptors, attending meetings to get yelled at, returning from meetings and likely yelling at the people responsible for the area that resulted in the yelling from said meeting, assigning schedules for individual tasks, making sure the concept art for sculpt A is completed and given to Sculptor A when it's supposed to be, etc etc.
That's just how it works. As a creative, I have gone to too many meetings where I had to listen to the business person you're talking about go on and on about charts, milestones, etc.. until I got to the point that I was attending and eventually running those meetings.. it's a necessary evil to make sure large complicated projects are accomplished how and when they are supposed to be to meet deadlines. Meeting deadlines means things go on sale when they're supposed to which means funding is in place when it's supposed to be so the business can go on. You know.. the way businesses that don't rely on Kickstarter operate..
No doubt that it's always a team effort. There really is nothing to see here except someone trying to invent something to complain about.
Grimskul wrote: Hot diggity, I would love to see some Ork Gargants at that size.
Malika2 wrote: I can't wait to see an Imperator Titan in that scale!
Um... okay?
I don't get it...I mean, an Imperator is probably about 1.5 times bigger than a Warlord, so in Epic scale it would probably be about the size of GW's 40k scaled Knight model, maybe a little bit bigger?
I don't get it...I mean, an Imperator is probably about 1.5 times bigger than a Warlord, so in Epic scale it would probably be about the size of GW's 40k scaled Knight model, maybe a little bit bigger?
I don't think that Titans were ever given proper scales, 40K knight sized would probably be appropriate for an Imperator though.
Breotan wrote: So, has this made the rounds yet? If not, then I has a rumor.
I was bemoaning in another thread about how GW refuses to sell me Epic/Titanicus. This makes me happy. Though I do kinda wish it had the void shield counter base. I loved those. Easiest book keeping ever.
A good friend of mine is a huge Blood Bowl fan. He's actually more worried by this. His belief is basically that they community doesn't need anything from GW. They have a massive selection of minis available and the rules... well the rules are pretty much perfect, refined over literally decades. The fear is that, given how good they are and how difficult it is to improve on something really good, any changes GW will make are likely to be negative. And of course if they do, the player base will fracture between those who want to play GW Official™ and the Community BRB.
Overall though I'm quite excited for SG revival. It'll be the first time in a long time I give GW money for anything other than paint.
*They played the games when they were young and through carelessness/theft/moving away from home have lost their rules and/or models.
*They played the games but were unable to get hold of all the factions/models/supplements they wanted before GW canned them and now cannot afford the insane ebay prices for OOP Specialist Games models.
*They found the games appealing but were doing other projects when they were available and didn't want to go to the effort of reviving an unsupported game in their local group.
*They still play the games today and are looking forward to the prospect of lots of new players joining their campaigns.
*They are excited by the possibility of seeing their favourite factions from Ye Olden Dayes rendered using modern plastic & resin tech.
To elaborate on the second point, some of the old GW miniatures games should have come with a big red label saying "BOX DOES NOT COME WITH EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO PLAY WITH". For example, Advanced Space Crusade had Scout and Tyranid models. No marines, terminators, genestealers, or other figures. Advanced HeroQuest came with *one* monster sculpt, a Skaven. The game came with only one adventure, which called for not just a second Skaven sculpt (Scout), but also the various Skaven personalities which were only available as metal miniatures. On a teenager's allowance, these base games were expensive, the expansions were expensive, and the additional figures were expensive -- and Space Crusade wasn't even available in the US!
Oh, and I'm sure we're only interested in the return of the better games. Or should I dig out and play that Space Scout game where you chucked dice into the box lid?
Oh man, the old 9 squares in the top of the box. I had totally forgotten about them.
I think one of the things SGs did was give people something else to do with their minis. I remember buying Terminators and thinking not only 'awesome I have more for my Ultramarines!' (cos I was stupid back then and didn't understand how ineffective they were) but also thinking 'Aww yeah, Space Hulk time!' I remember buying a Skaven BB team because Skaven were my think in WHFB. And I didn't mind buying a box as a one off. I could play with FB minis but eventually I bought a team (including kickers, something Skaven couldn't have!)
Yes, quietly optimistic. Which makes me think that if they screw this up, it'll be all the more frustrating.
Yeah, that's always been my point whenever "GW should bring back SG" comes up.
I have my 40K/AOS/WHFB army. I'm essentially "done" with it, and while you can always add more, most people will reach a point where they're not motivated to add anything new until there's an update.
SGs mean you can create your faction in different guises, my Emperor's Children can be a Crusade Fleet, a Planetary Invasion Force and a Platoon level force, and I have something else to do when I don't feel like working on the 30mm scale version.
Plus, Blood Bowl.
One thing that's occurred as I've been typing is that they can also provide a very important release from the grind of core game releases for the main studio, which, if we're lucky, may see an uptick in quality from them too.
It seems a vast amount of people here are nostalgic for those old games. If you're nostalgic for them, I'm assuming you played them at some point in the past.
If that's the case, then what happened to your game/figures? Did you sell them? Do you still have them? If you sold them, the question is why? Was the game not good enough or fun enough anymore? If you still have them, then why are you getting so excited again? For a reprint you'll have to buy with slightly altered rules? Does the original you own not work anymore? Have the old figures you bought stopped working?
I'm seriously struggling to see why everyone is so excited. OK, so I understand why some of the newer players who have heard about these "great oldies" but not had a chance to play them are getting excited. If I was one of those people though, I'd be asking if they were so great, why aren't people playing them regularly now if they're so good. It's not like GW took your rulebook and minis away when they stopped "supporting" it. It's not like other companies out there haven't carried on making suitable figures for you.
The more I read Dakka, the more I realise that mini gamers are more like CCG collectors. If a game is stopped being made, people stop playing it. They're only happy when purchasing new stuff.
Maybe GW was right stating that the main part of their HHHobby was buying GW stuff.
Nice disguised troll post.
But to answer your question, i still have all my Specialist games stuff, left most of it in my home country when i moved to Japan. But seriously it is about supporting the games of old. Updating the armies to current status, chance of re-designed or new starter sets. addition of new races, BFG admech fleets, Space marine specific fleets, necron in plastic? Epic imperial knights all those new tanks and flyers in epic. Lots of possibilities!
So if it is true
SeanDrake wrote: All the new jobs for SG just went up and it appears the rainbows and uncornfarts just ended.
In fact it is the worst news possible as they are looking for a lead for the studio who has a bussines and accounting background like the main GW studio.
So they are effectively by definition killing forgeworld and have managed to get people to cheer about it .
In fact the job descriptions are pretty depressing and look like them doubling down on the polices that brought us AoS and the current 40k ruleset.
Wait where do they talk about the required skills for the job? The job descriptions on the site don't really say much (they're kind of crap).
I know right? Necrons and all that stuff has been made... by the "underground."
Anyhoo regarding BB my buddy echoed the above poster's concerns. Good rules now GW will ruin. I doubt it though. I think its gonna be great!!!! I started in the 80s/90s with "Adeptus Titanicus" then "Space Marine" then "Blood Bowl". I'm looking forward to the renewed interest.
Grimskul wrote: Hot diggity, I would love to see some Ork Gargants at that size.
Malika2 wrote: I can't wait to see an Imperator Titan in that scale!
Um... okay?
Spoiler:
I don't get it...I mean, an Imperator is probably about 1.5 times bigger than a Warlord, so in Epic scale it would probably be about the size of GW's 40k scaled Knight model, maybe a little bit bigger?
Epic Imperators and Gargants already exist. Have since the Titan Legions game.
Kojiro wrote: A good friend of mine is a huge Blood Bowl fan. He's actually more worried by this. His belief is basically that they community doesn't need anything from GW. They have a massive selection of minis available and the rules... well the rules are pretty much perfect, refined over literally decades.
I don't agree that they are perfect. What Blood Bowl needs is a Definitive Edition that is not held back by the idea that it's good that the game is not balanced. All teams should be able to field competitive teams, and anyone who does not want to field a competitive team should just handicap themselves by not spending all their gold and inducement money, instead of GW assuming you chose to play Ogres because you want to be the worst team in the league.
AlexHolker wrote: I don't agree that they are perfect. What Blood Bowl needs is a Definitive Edition that is not held back by the idea that it's good that the game is not balanced. All teams should be able to field competitive teams, and anyone who does not want to field a competitive team should just handicap themselves by not spending all their gold and inducement money, instead of GW assuming you chose to play Ogres because you want to be the worst team in the league.
There is competitive and there is thematic, while it would be awesome when you could get a perfect blend all the time, sometimes a compromise needs to be made, much like in real life.
I am perfectly happy with some of the teams being harder than the others, gives you a bit of a Dan Hibiki (from Street Fighter fame) feel to play around with. "Aww man, not only did he school me, he was using Ogres as well!"
I am more looking forward to the higher end of things, and how it can balance some of the teams (damn Wood Elves) for Tournaments but still make them viable for Leagues.
That is currently the problem I see with the one universal rule-set as it is not equal for a resurrection style tournament AS WELL AS an ongoing league formal.
And I haven't come across anything that solves that issue despite, 3 LRBs, 10 years of playing and much thinking.
AlexHolker wrote: I don't agree that they are perfect. What Blood Bowl needs is a Definitive Edition that is not held back by the idea that it's good that the game is not balanced. All teams should be able to field competitive teams, and anyone who does not want to field a competitive team should just handicap themselves by not spending all their gold and inducement money, instead of GW assuming you chose to play Ogres because you want to be the worst team in the league.
I only play once per year, at the big tournament so I'm far from an expert on the balance overall, I'm mostly relaying his fears. That said I will agree it has never seemed balanced to me. A Definitive Edition™ would be great and balance would also be wonderful but I wonder if this is something BB can ever achieve? The depth of the game doesn't come from rules but from the play itself (though as a flimsy Skaven player I've always felt hard done by in leagues). More over, while they're not perfect, it seems to me that they're so far along that tinkering is more likely to degrade the rules than enhance them.
AlexHolker wrote: I don't agree that they are perfect. What Blood Bowl needs is a Definitive Edition that is not held back by the idea that it's good that the game is not balanced. All teams should be able to field competitive teams, and anyone who does not want to field a competitive team should just handicap themselves by not spending all their gold and inducement money, instead of GW assuming you chose to play Ogres because you want to be the worst team in the league.
I only play once per year, at the big tournament so I'm far from an expert on the balance overall, I'm mostly relaying his fears. That said I will agree it has never seemed balanced to me. A Definitive Edition™ would be great and balance would also be wonderful but I wonder if this is something BB can ever achieve? The depth of the game doesn't come from rules but from the play itself (though as a flimsy Skaven player I've always felt hard done by in leagues). More over, while they're not perfect, it seems to me that they're so far along that tinkering is more likely to degrade the rules than enhance them.
I think the living bloodbowl rulebook is quite balanced, And an Ogre team should be difficult to play, they should go for eating the enemy team and not the ball.
Kojiro wrote: A good friend of mine is a huge Blood Bowl fan. He's actually more worried by this. His belief is basically that they community doesn't need anything from GW. They have a massive selection of minis available and the rules... well the rules are pretty much perfect, refined over literally decades.
I don't agree that they are perfect. What Blood Bowl needs is a Definitive Edition that is not held back by the idea that it's good that the game is not balanced. All teams should be able to field competitive teams, and anyone who does not want to field a competitive team should just handicap themselves by not spending all their gold and inducement money, instead of GW assuming you chose to play Ogres because you want to be the worst team in the league.
That's nice for you to want, but it doesn't fit with the design of the game. There's purposeful tiers of teams. Halflings, as the main example of lower tier teams, should never be as good as a serious team. LRB6 isn't perfect, but it kind of IS the definitive edition. There's some tweaks that would be worthwhile, but the core is the strongest it's ever been, based on a player tested system. I'm excited for specialist games to be re-released, except for Blood Bowl, which doesn't have a lot of room to improve.
AlexHolker wrote: I don't agree that they are perfect. What Blood Bowl needs is a Definitive Edition that is not held back by the idea that it's good that the game is not balanced. All teams should be able to field competitive teams, and anyone who does not want to field a competitive team should just handicap themselves by not spending all their gold and inducement money, instead of GW assuming you chose to play Ogres because you want to be the worst team in the league.
That's nice for you to want, but it doesn't fit with the design of the game. There's purposeful tiers of teams. Halflings, as the main example of lower tier teams, should never be as good as a serious team. LRB6 isn't perfect, but it kind of IS the definitive edition. There's some tweaks that would be worthwhile, but the core is the strongest it's ever been, based on a player tested system. I'm excited for specialist games to be re-released, except for Blood Bowl, which doesn't have a lot of room to improve.
I know that they did it deliberately. That doesn't make it good design.
According to the 2013 FUMBBL statistics, there are only three teams that have less than a 45% win rate: Halflings (37%); Goblins (27%); and Ogres (27%). All three of those teams are in the bottom 5 least played teams. Do you think that's a coincidence, or are you willing to admit that the majority of people disagree with you that playing a team with a severe and arbitrary handicap is in any way desirable?
AlexHolker wrote: I know that they did it deliberately. That doesn't make it good design.
According to the 2013 FUMBBL statistics, there are only three teams that have less than a 45% win rate: Halflings (37%); Goblins (27%); and Ogres (27%). All three of those teams are in the bottom 5 least played teams. Do you think that's a coincidence, or are you willing to admit that the majority of people disagree with you that playing a team with a severe and arbitrary handicap is in any way desirable?
It might not make it good design in your eyes, but that is just..uh..your opinion man.
Despite their incompetence and willingness to eat other players I have great love of my Goblins as they are full of character.
If I wanted a perfectly balanced game I would be looking for something like Chess, but even that isn't balanced as one team gets to go first all the time...
I like that there are plucky underdogs with crazy abilities and options, as much as I like there are hyper capable passing teams and brutal steamroller bash teams.
That is all the stuff that adds to the flavour.
Now, I think that will be enough from me about it in this thread, but if nothing else this rumour has gotten new people talking/hearing about Bloodbowl again and that is a good thing.
Breotan wrote: So, has this made the rounds yet? If not, then I has a rumor.
Oh my days. Oh god. I think I'm going to faint:
Epic RETURNS!
Edit: This really really shakes up my hobby planning. I am seriously looking at my collection with the intention of liquidating a ton of it on ebay over the coming months and Kickstarters are being binned. I'm even considering dropping my Dropfleet Kickstarter. I am long overdue for a new edition of Epic. Choices choices...
notprop wrote: FW don't operate an old skool sculpting regime do they?
i.e 28mm models get done in 3-Ups, therefore that could be a 3-down for big models.......
They used to at one point. I do know the Will Hayes has partially sculpted a 6mm true scale Warhound about 10 years ago. Doubt they'd do it now. In fact, I would have thought that 3D scultping would probably make it easier to bash a model out in a different scale.
Though, what a way to cash in on the 3-up. £1,200 a time...
Popped into my local GW on Saturday to pick up a couple of books and take a look at BaC - got talking to the manager as I'd been in chatting a couple of weeks ago about wanting BaC. They asked if I was picking a copy up and I said I wasn't due to money etc having just got back from my stag do and getting married next month.
Conversation then moved onto the SG announcement and I said that as much as I'd like BaC if I had a choice between Necromunda and BaC that I'd go for Necromunda and given the finances are going to be tight post wedding that I'd probably leave BaC in the hopes a Necromunda announcement would be coming. The manager said to me that it was going to be coming and that the staff in their store were all brushing off their Necromunda minis and gearing up for it as it was the most popular game among them. Obviously they could be just making assumptions as we are but we had a seriously long winded chat about campaigns and gangs and potential new gangs etc.
This is a stark contrast to about 2 months ago when I went in to get some Dark Eldar Wyches to make some proxy Escher with and when I said that's what I was doing they all clammed up
At the very least I guess that the fact Necromunda isn't a dirty word in GW stores is a good thing.
AlexHolker wrote: According to the 2013 FUMBBL statistics, there are only three teams that have less than a 45% win rate: Halflings (37%); Goblins (27%); and Ogres (27%). All three of those teams are in the bottom 5 least played teams. Do you think that's a coincidence, or are you willing to admit that the majority of people disagree with you that playing a team with a severe and arbitrary handicap is in any way desirable?
I don't mind Halflings and Goblins being joke teams, the important thing for me is that they're explicitly called out as being joke teams in their descriptions.
AlexHolker wrote: According to the 2013 FUMBBL statistics, there are only three teams that have less than a 45% win rate: Halflings (37%); Goblins (27%); and Ogres (27%). All three of those teams are in the bottom 5 least played teams. Do you think that's a coincidence, or are you willing to admit that the majority of people disagree with you that playing a team with a severe and arbitrary handicap is in any way desirable?
I don't mind Halflings and Goblins being joke teams, the important thing for me is that they're explicitly called out as being joke teams in their descriptions.
Same here, its part of the game to have more challanging teams, some players play these teams a lot, simply for fun.
AlexHolker wrote: I don't agree that they are perfect. What Blood Bowl needs is a Definitive Edition that is not held back by the idea that it's good that the game is not balanced. All teams should be able to field competitive teams, and anyone who does not want to field a competitive team should just handicap themselves by not spending all their gold and inducement money, instead of GW assuming you chose to play Ogres because you want to be the worst team in the league.
That's nice for you to want, but it doesn't fit with the design of the game. There's purposeful tiers of teams. Halflings, as the main example of lower tier teams, should never be as good as a serious team. LRB6 isn't perfect, but it kind of IS the definitive edition. There's some tweaks that would be worthwhile, but the core is the strongest it's ever been, based on a player tested system. I'm excited for specialist games to be re-released, except for Blood Bowl, which doesn't have a lot of room to improve.
I know that they did it deliberately. That doesn't make it good design.
According to the 2013 FUMBBL statistics, there are only three teams that have less than a 45% win rate: Halflings (37%); Goblins (27%); and Ogres (27%). All three of those teams are in the bottom 5 least played teams. Do you think that's a coincidence, or are you willing to admit that the majority of people disagree with you that playing a team with a severe and arbitrary handicap is in any way desirable?
So do they still have the absolutely stupid "if you forget to move the turn maker its a turnover"?
- the only thing I completely hated and despised in the rules.
So do they still have the absolutely stupid "if you forget to move the turn maker its a turnover"?
- the only thing I completely hated and despised in the rules.
Sorry, but what exactly is stupid about the illegal procedure mechanic?
Penalising people so dramatically for forgetting something - something so very minor and unrelated to the actual gameplay especially when they are just starting is ludicrous - I simply would not play the game with that rule in operation...... it also promotes people trying to catch the other player out.
Illegal procedure is still a rule, but it's much less penalizing than it was previously. It burns a reroll (and uses your reroll for the turn), but if you're out of rerolls, it instead gives your opponent a reroll.
Lots of leagues and tournaments don't use it. Mine does, since it forces people to develop good habits.
So do they still have the absolutely stupid "if you forget to move the turn maker its a turnover"?
- the only thing I completely hated and despised in the rules.
Sorry, but what exactly is stupid about the illegal procedure mechanic?
It punishes enthusiasm. "Oh, were you raring to go with your turn and do cool stuff? NOPE! GOTCHA! You skip a turn and probably throw the game. Doesn't matter that you did everything right up to that point, you failed a memory test that has nothing to do with any other rule in the game."
I cannot think of one single game of Blood Bowl that rule enhanced, but I can think of a lot it ruined and made into miserable negative play experiences. The change of the rule merely made it annoying and sometimes game-spoiling, rather than 100% game-spoiling. I'm a very open minded and accepting person on most issues, but if you defend the IP rule, you're simply wrong wrong wronginty wrong.
foostick wrote: Popped into my local GW on Saturday to pick up a couple of books and take a look at BaC - got talking to the manager as I'd been in chatting a couple of weeks ago about wanting BaC. They asked if I was picking a copy up and I said I wasn't due to money etc having just got back from my stag do and getting married next month.
Conversation then moved onto the SG announcement and I said that as much as I'd like BaC if I had a choice between Necromunda and BaC that I'd go for Necromunda and given the finances are going to be tight post wedding that I'd probably leave BaC in the hopes a Necromunda announcement would be coming. The manager said to me that it was going to be coming and that the staff in their store were all brushing off their Necromunda minis and gearing up for it as it was the most popular game among them. Obviously they could be just making assumptions as we are but we had a seriously long winded chat about campaigns and gangs and potential new gangs etc.
This is a stark contrast to about 2 months ago when I went in to get some Dark Eldar Wyches to make some proxy Escher with and when I said that's what I was doing they all clammed up
At the very least I guess that the fact Necromunda isn't a dirty word in GW stores is a good thing.
I expect that's mostly hype, apparently the teams doing the relaunching haven't been formed yet, and they don't actually know what they are going to start on. They'll probably do Necromunda but I think Blood Bowl will be first as they had 4 teams ready to go before they pulled it due to Dreadfleet. So If there is going to be a Necromunda re-release, it's unlikely to be out until at least 2017, and the staff will no doubt be encouraged to use new teams for it (assuming they still work for GW by then).
It's good to get excited, but it's definitely worth managing expectations here. It's a long way out.
A Middle Earth figure designer? With barely two years to go on the copyrights? I don't know what they're up to, but I'll save a little anticipation for this one.
Matakakea wrote: A Middle Earth figure designer? With barely two years to go on the copyrights? I don't know what they're up to, but I'll save a little anticipation for this one.
So do they still have the absolutely stupid "if you forget to move the turn maker its a turnover"?
- the only thing I completely hated and despised in the rules.
Sorry, but what exactly is stupid about the illegal procedure mechanic?
It punishes enthusiasm. "Oh, were you raring to go with your turn and do cool stuff? NOPE! GOTCHA! You skip a turn and probably throw the game. Doesn't matter that you did everything right up to that point, you failed a memory test that has nothing to do with any other rule in the game."
I cannot think of one single game of Blood Bowl that rule enhanced, but I can think of a lot it ruined and made into miserable negative play experiences. The change of the rule merely made it annoying and sometimes game-spoiling, rather than 100% game-spoiling. I'm a very open minded and accepting person on most issues, but if you defend the IP rule, you're simply wrong wrong wronginty wrong.
.. if you know your Tolkein might be worth a shot eh ?
I'm debating whether or not to send another application in to the studio (or the FW one) for a sculpting position.
I was told by another sculptor who works at the studio they do still use traditional sculpting, although not as much as they used to. Mostly it's FW that still does more traditional work.
Unfortunately the last 2 times I sent one in I wasn't invited to an interview. :(
It seems a vast amount of people here are nostalgic for those old games. If you're nostalgic for them, I'm assuming you played them at some point in the past.
If that's the case, then what happened to your game/figures? Did you sell them? Do you still have them? If you sold them, the question is why? Was the game not good enough or fun enough anymore? If you still have them, then why are you getting so excited again? For a reprint you'll have to buy with slightly altered rules? Does the original you own not work anymore? Have the old figures you bought stopped working?
I'm seriously struggling to see why everyone is so excited. OK, so I understand why some of the newer players who have heard about these "great oldies" but not had a chance to play them are getting excited. If I was one of those people though, I'd be asking if they were so great, why aren't people playing them regularly now if they're so good. It's not like GW took your rulebook and minis away when they stopped "supporting" it. It's not like other companies out there haven't carried on making suitable figures for you.
The more I read Dakka, the more I realise that mini gamers are more like CCG collectors. If a game is stopped being made, people stop playing it. They're only happy when purchasing new stuff.
Maybe GW was right stating that the main part of their HHHobby was buying GW stuff.
Nice disguised troll post.
Erm. Bullkgak. If I wanted to troll, I'd troll clearly.
I've been buying GW stuff since 1984. I felt insulted when GW stated that the main part of the hobby was buying stuff, but the more I read and see, the more they seem to be right.
As mini gamers, we're not happy unless there's a continual stream of new stuff to buy. Once that stops, the games die away. (Yeah, I get it that we need the game to be on sale to attract more players in to replace those that leave). All I was doing was voicing my own worry for the way we act as consumers in this hobby - especially with regards to repurchasing stuff we already have.
But to answer your question, i still have all my Specialist games stuff, left most of it in my home country when i moved to Japan. But seriously it is about supporting the games of old. Updating the armies to current status, chance of re-designed or new starter sets. addition of new races, BFG admech fleets, Space marine specific fleets, necron in plastic? Epic imperial knights all those new tanks and flyers in epic. Lots of possibilities!
Ditto. Infact last month I'd just sorted a pile of about 90 metal unpainted Necromunda models out. I was going to ebay them and just keep the painted ones, but I think I'll hang onto them. Maybe I'll get some good games of Necromunda in with all the Deadzone terrain I have now. Of course that will depend if Deadzone2 turns out to be a better game than the rehash GW do of Necromunda.
However, do you think they'll be bringing out new races so soon? Surely the first job will be re-making all the basics. I'm sure that's quite a few years worth of releases before we see anything new.
zedmeister wrote: Necromunda needs terrain and I doubt they'd miss the opportunity to do it in plastic (and flog it to the 40k and 30k as a bonus!)
THIS! PLEASE! Necro terrain is pretty useless and needs to be heavily supplemented. Not nearly enough cover on the ground or the platforms and too many tiny little holes that allow cheesy, cheap shots. Bring on the plastic terrain that actually looks like the artwork in the books.
It seems a vast amount of people here are nostalgic for those old games. If you're nostalgic for them, I'm assuming you played them at some point in the past.
If that's the case, then what happened to your game/figures? Did you sell them? Do you still have them? If you sold them, the question is why? Was the game not good enough or fun enough anymore? If you still have them, then why are you getting so excited again? For a reprint you'll have to buy with slightly altered rules? Does the original you own not work anymore? Have the old figures you bought stopped working?
I'm seriously struggling to see why everyone is so excited. OK, so I understand why some of the newer players who have heard about these "great oldies" but not had a chance to play them are getting excited. If I was one of those people though, I'd be asking if they were so great, why aren't people playing them regularly now if they're so good. It's not like GW took your rulebook and minis away when they stopped "supporting" it. It's not like other companies out there haven't carried on making suitable figures for you.
The more I read Dakka, the more I realise that mini gamers are more like CCG collectors. If a game is stopped being made, people stop playing it. They're only happy when purchasing new stuff.
Maybe GW was right stating that the main part of their HHHobby was buying GW stuff.
I was 14 when necromunda came out I was a kid and didn't hang onto things I wish I had. My epic armies passed to me through kids of a teacher who didn't want them anymore. My Mordhiem is gone too. It's been 20 years basically for some of them. You don't like stuff fine . I do stop spoiling my fun.
Honestly I doubt we will see much support. Maybe pdfs and the odd Ltd edition box if we're lucky
Gimgamgoo wrote: I'm seriously struggling to see why everyone is so excited.
I'm one of those old players. I've got a big collection of BFG and various amounts of Necromunda, Mordheim and Warmaster (enough to play with in each case). I'm excited becuase its almost impossible to get new players interested in a dead game with the only minis available at "collectors" prices. This will hopefully get new blood involved in these great games which is good for everyone.
OK, so I understand why some of the newer players who have heard about these "great oldies" but not had a chance to play them are getting excited.
Well, I never had a chance to play Epic, so I would not mind it they brought that back so I could start!
If I was one of those people though, I'd be asking if they were so great, why aren't people playing them regularly now if they're so good.
There are a few people around me who still drag out their old Specialist Games every once and a while. BFG is really the only game I have enough minis to set up multiple people in, so I can only play the others with people who still have their old armies/gangs/teams.
The more I read Dakka, the more I realise that mini gamers are more like CCG collectors. If a game is stopped being made, people stop playing it.
You do have a point. Ever hear of VOR: The Malestrom or Clan War? These were published as competition to 40K and WFB respectivly. THey were both pretty good games and I bought into both of them and their were other people at my FLGS involved too. The day each was discontinued most of the interest died instantly. I know there was an online Clan War community tying to keep that game alive for years but locally I never played another game.
Well, I hope the Specialist Games are sold through Core channels as well as FW's website. I have nothing in particular against FW's website, but the fulfillment end of it is lacking when compared to other retail sites, like GW's, and falls severely short of the industry gold standard, Amazon.
Putting price aside, in a perfect world, you place an order, it should leave their warehouse the same day or next morning. Regular orders should be traceable and what you pay online should include everything that needs to be paid. Anything you don't like should be returnable, with the vendor paying for that shipping. The product should also arrive relatively quickly -- within a week, with an express option to have it delivered within a couple of days.
Mostly, this is the case with GW's web store. But on FW's, you buy something, and it can take days before it's even picked, when the product is on hand, and it can take weeks to arrive in an untraceable postal package. Or it comes by UPS, and I get charged for the same taxes twice and have to fight to get one of those refunded; plus brokerage fees after the fact. And, difficult returns that I have to pay for out of pocket for shipping.
All that just amounts to, "nah, too much trouble, pass" for me, except on items I *really* want, and I don't think that would be the case for SG's, for me.
At the end of the day, for most of my hobby stuff, I far prefer to be able to look at a product and hold it in my hands to decide on whether I want to buy it or not anyhow.
@Gimgamgoo - Generally speaking, I'm excited for SGs, because a bunch of them were really awesome games and I'd love to see renewed interest / revival of them.
His Master's Voice wrote: Do all CEOs address their employees after taking the happy pill or is that a GW thing?
Well, most CEOs don't take the sad pill before addressing their employees Unless you're Stephen Elop, in which case, the company is an oil rig on fire.
His Master's Voice wrote: Do all CEOs address their employees after taking the happy pill or is that a GW thing?
This is pretty down to earth compared to some announcements I've seen, really. Nothing special here. The whole back-slapping 'I knew 'em back inna day' thing is perhaps a bit overdone, but it's pretty standard fare to try and show some personal connection and humanize both the exec and the guy he's appointing.
At the risk of generalizing, though: this does seem to be something of an American (and perhaps British?) way to go about it, which might explain why it seems a little foreign.
migooo wrote: Wasn't Tony Cottrell with Forge world?
The new Specialist Games will be part of an Forge World expansion, not separate for it. They are just saying "this Forge World dude will be responsible for the Specialist Games stuff".
Talys wrote: Regular orders should be traceable and what you pay online should include everything that needs to be paid. Anything you don't like should be returnable, with the vendor paying for that shipping. The product should also arrive relatively quickly -- within a week, with an express option to have it delivered within a couple of days.
Mostly, this is the case with GW's web store. But on FW's, you buy something, and it can take days before it's even picked, when the product is on hand, and it can take weeks to arrive in an untraceable postal package. Or it comes by UPS, and I get charged for the same taxes twice and have to fight to get one of those refunded; plus brokerage fees after the fact. And, difficult returns that I have to pay for out of pocket for shipping.
I'm assuming here your country flair is correct and you're in Canada and having your FW orders shipped from the UK. Customs fees are never going to be paid up front. It's just not a realistic or even reasonable request. And beyond that I believe this is more an issue with your government's customs office than Forgeworld. I'm in the US and have never been charged any customs duties or brokerage fees on even my largest FW orders. The problem here as well is you're wanting international shipping within a week, and considering that not express. The issue here is this type of shipment is not cheap. Add in tracking and you're adding in more costs. Especially if you are a smaller company. Amazon has great shipping because they are a behemoth that can command cheap rate from every carrier in existence. They should never be considered the "industry standard" in that reagrds because no other company on earth can offer what they do at that price. That's why they don't have any real competitors.
I'm assuming here your country flair is correct and you're in Canada and having your FW orders shipped from the UK. Customs fees are never going to be paid up front. It's just not a realistic or even reasonable request. And beyond that I believe this is more an issue with your government's customs office than Forgeworld. I'm in the US and have never been charged any customs duties or brokerage fees on even my largest FW orders. The problem here as well is you're wanting international shipping within a week, and considering that not express. The issue here is this type of shipment is not cheap. Add in tracking and you're adding in more costs. Especially if you are a smaller company. Amazon has great shipping because they are a behemoth that can command cheap rate from every carrier in existence. They should never be considered the "industry standard" in that reagrds because no other company on earth can offer what they do at that price. That's why they don't have any real competitors.
Actually, companies paying sales taxes & duty fees on behalf of consumers overseas is fairly common so they avoid the sticker shock tax bill when the package arrives. A lot of US companies do it, especially for Canadian customers.
Well, I surprisingly just scooped up that Assassinorum Game on Amazon for like $65 and I saw some other GW stuff on there a lot more reasonable than I remember (obviously not MSRP). If these specialist games manage to end up in that category I'll be flabbergasted. I have to say.. if it weren't for this thread, I'd probably have never gone looking for that. Now, it's going to end up a Christmas present for my oldest while my youngest will be cracking open a copy of Mars Attacks
Talys wrote: Regular orders should be traceable and what you pay online should include everything that needs to be paid. Anything you don't like should be returnable, with the vendor paying for that shipping. The product should also arrive relatively quickly -- within a week, with an express option to have it delivered within a couple of days.
Mostly, this is the case with GW's web store. But on FW's, you buy something, and it can take days before it's even picked, when the product is on hand, and it can take weeks to arrive in an untraceable postal package. Or it comes by UPS, and I get charged for the same taxes twice and have to fight to get one of those refunded; plus brokerage fees after the fact. And, difficult returns that I have to pay for out of pocket for shipping.
I'm assuming here your country flair is correct and you're in Canada and having your FW orders shipped from the UK. Customs fees are never going to be paid up front. It's just not a realistic or even reasonable request. And beyond that I believe this is more an issue with your government's customs office than Forgeworld. I'm in the US and have never been charged any customs duties or brokerage fees on even my largest FW orders. The problem here as well is you're wanting international shipping within a week, and considering that not express. The issue here is this type of shipment is not cheap. Add in tracking and you're adding in more costs. Especially if you are a smaller company. Amazon has great shipping because they are a behemoth that can command cheap rate from every carrier in existence. They should never be considered the "industry standard" in that reagrds because no other company on earth can offer what they do at that price. That's why they don't have any real competitors.
I'm going to totally disagree with you. Why? Because if I buy something from GamesWorkshop.com that's web order, it will come to me from the UK, via UPS, with everything prepaid. But let's put that aside. I've made many FW orders, ranging from around $200 - $500. Guess what? The brokerage fee has been $10 from UPS for every order. And since the new web site has come up, every single order that I've placed that comes via UPS I get charged the SAME TAX twice, once by GW, and once by UPS. I can get back the double-paid tax, but it's a real hassle. 12% comes out to quite a bit when you're talking FW prices.
When Forge World ships me a "free" replacement part, guess what? I have to pay the brokerage. And the taxes! On the free part!
Yet, if it's a GW resin part from the UK, no brokerage, no double tax, no tax on replacements, etc. Essentially, problem free.
Now, let's put the actual cost part of the equation aside for a moment. I would far prefer that Forge World simply charge me, as an international customer all of the extras at the point of purchase -- however much that is -- so that when I, as the customer, receive the package, I don't have to scramble to pay the UPS guy. Or, if I'm not home, require that someone else pay it.
As another example of Amazon, being a gold standard: When I buy something from amazon.com and ship it to Canada via International Global Priority, they will charge me the correct tax, and approximately the correct shipping and handling (their estimate). I can get it from the USA to Canada in one day, if I pay about $10 more. If the actual amount comes up higher, Amazon eats it. If the actual amount comes up lower, Amazon refunds me the difference (I get like, $1.55 credited to my MasterCard, or whatever). To me, that's professional, expeditious service that makes online shopping a pleasure.
In the FW example, I would rather pay $200 for a box, and be done with it and know I will get it in X number of days, than $150, and maybe another $10 to UPS and maybe another $25 in tax -- or have it sent by post, to arrive in some random number of weeks.
Oh, one more thing on my FW customer service dissatisfaction: when I email GW, the response is extremely expeditious. If I email FW, the response is.... days? More than a week? You know it's going to be long when they tell you on the website that if you haven't heard back in a few days, to call them long distance. Which wouldn't be so bad if I didn't have to do it at 1am
Anyhow, all this is simply to reiterate: I'll buy FW stuff if it's something I really want -- an extraordinary product that will make me really happy. But I won't buy FW stuff if it's just cool and I like it regardless of the price, because it's just too much of a hassle, and the online shopping experience falls short. So, I would probably go through the hassle for a really nifty 40k model, but probably not for a reprint of Bloodbowl. :(
There's no good reason why a company can't kno the weight of the items it is going to send, to calculate postage costs. Tax costs are based on the price of the goods (and shipping, in the UK) plus a usually standard handling fee. So any well-organised company should be able to do this.
The reason why Amazon can do this is because they have built the company on being able to do it for the convenience of customers.
Forge World however is a boutique resin model producer. But being under the umbrella of the £100+ million GW with its £4 M web site, they ought to be covered.
Mods, please don't lock me down for mentioning Chapterhouse again on this thread, because what I have to say is relevant to this discussion.
But the appointment of Andy Jones as a global business development manager should fill any GW fan with dread. The man's incompetence during the chapterhouse trial is well documented by others on that particular thread.
Yes, I do realise his remit looks as though he may not be involved with specialist games in any shape or form, but if he's responsible for boosting global sales, then Specialist games will sink quicker than the Titanic!
The CEO says in the letter that Specialist games/forgeworld will also be sold through NON-CORE Channels.
Andy Jones will be responsible for NON-CORE channels...
migooo wrote: Wasn't Tony Cottrell with Forge world?
Yep. So, not necessarily time for a "the business managers are going to run it and ruin everything" panic yet.
However when warhammer forge was set up I thought that it would get the same support as FW . Maybe there were internal problems but unless he has a bit of freedom in this I really only see token stuff if it is FW doing this.
So do they still have the absolutely stupid "if you forget to move the turn maker its a turnover"?
- the only thing I completely hated and despised in the rules.
Sorry, but what exactly is stupid about the illegal procedure mechanic?
Penalising people so dramatically for forgetting something - something so very minor and unrelated to the actual gameplay especially when they are just starting is ludicrous - I simply would not play the game with that rule in operation...... it also promotes people trying to catch the other player out.
And if you incorrectly called someone on something you'd suffer the effects. If people are trying to catch one another out with it (which was what put me off even looking at BB, this is a problem with your meta, not the game) and not being punished for incorrectly calling one they're using the rule incorrectly (in a fit of irony). Besides, IIRC, you only lost your turn if you had no re-rolls left. If you got called out for an IP, you simply lost a re-roll.
So do they still have the absolutely stupid "if you forget to move the turn maker its a turnover"?
- the only thing I completely hated and despised in the rules.
Sorry, but what exactly is stupid about the illegal procedure mechanic?
Penalising people so dramatically for forgetting something - something so very minor and unrelated to the actual gameplay especially when they are just starting is ludicrous - I simply would not play the game with that rule in operation...... it also promotes people trying to catch the other player out.
And you incorrectly called someone on something you'd suffer the effects. If people are trying to catch one another out with it (which was what put me off even looking at BB, this is a problem with your meta, not the game) and not being punished for incorrectly calling one they're using the rule incorrectly (in a fit of irony). Besides, IIRC, you only lost your turn if you had no re-rolls left. If you got called out for an IP, you simply lost a re-roll.
So what - if you have used you re-roll you are still hugely penalised FOR NO GOOD REASON. its a rule that helps no one in the game - its moving a turn maker ffs not even proper gameplay - I stand by me its stupid, counterproductive - penalises new players fro no reasons and I would only play the game without it.
So what - if you have used you re-roll you are still hugely penalised FOR NO GOOD REASON. its a rule that helps no one in the game - its moving a turn maker ffs not even proper gameplay - I stand by me its stupid, counterproductive - penalises new players fro no reasons and I would only play the game without it.
What does it add??????
As I said, that there, is a problem with your meta, not the game. When I first moved to where I live now there was (and still is) a big Blood Bowl scene. I was put off even trying the game with me telling horror stories like the situations you're referring to with people generally being douchey with the rule; which can apply to any game with some kind of "gotcha" mechanics (WMH for example), you dial it down for new players or casual games.
I've played many games of BB where you'd start your turn and my opponent would kindly remind me "Are you forgetting something?" (and vice versa), even though they were well within their rights to call an IP, but it would be a kind of dick move. It's not there to be used like a "Fnar fnar, you've activated my trap card!" which is what you (and me in my previous meta) seem to have it used like.
foostick wrote: Popped into my local GW on Saturday to pick up a couple of books and take a look at BaC - got talking to the manager as I'd been in chatting a couple of weeks ago about wanting BaC. They asked if I was picking a copy up and I said I wasn't due to money etc having just got back from my stag do and getting married next month.
Conversation then moved onto the SG announcement and I said that as much as I'd like BaC if I had a choice between Necromunda and BaC that I'd go for Necromunda and given the finances are going to be tight post wedding that I'd probably leave BaC in the hopes a Necromunda announcement would be coming. The manager said to me that it was going to be coming and that the staff in their store were all brushing off their Necromunda minis and gearing up for it as it was the most popular game among them. Obviously they could be just making assumptions as we are but we had a seriously long winded chat about campaigns and gangs and potential new gangs etc.
This is a stark contrast to about 2 months ago when I went in to get some Dark Eldar Wyches to make some proxy Escher with and when I said that's what I was doing they all clammed up
At the very least I guess that the fact Necromunda isn't a dirty word in GW stores is a good thing.
I expect that's mostly hype, apparently the teams doing the relaunching haven't been formed yet, and they don't actually know what they are going to start on. They'll probably do Necromunda but I think Blood Bowl will be first as they had 4 teams ready to go before they pulled it due to Dreadfleet. So If there is going to be a Necromunda re-release, it's unlikely to be out until at least 2017, and the staff will no doubt be encouraged to use new teams for it (assuming they still work for GW by then).
It's good to get excited, but it's definitely worth managing expectations here. It's a long way out.
I was more amused by the change in attitude from a couple of months ago where literally upon mentioning Necromunda the conversation shot down as it wasn't a core product, it was almost like walking in and starting to chat about Malifaux. Now they're being talked about enthusiastically and there's talk of getting some games in the store etc. It's just a nice shift in attitude that I suspect has a lot to do with head office relaxing their stance rather than the shop employees.
Like I said, it's confirmation of nothing but they're acting like it's going to happen which is a reason to be positive
So what - if you have used you re-roll you are still hugely penalised FOR NO GOOD REASON. its a rule that helps no one in the game - its moving a turn maker ffs not even proper gameplay - I stand by me its stupid, counterproductive - penalises new players fro no reasons and I would only play the game without it.
What does it add??????
As I said, that there, is a problem with your meta, not the game. When I first moved to where I live now there was (and still is) a big Blood Bowl scene. I was put off even trying the game with me telling horror stories like the situations you're referring to with people generally being douchey with the rule; which can apply to any game with some kind of "gotcha" mechanics (WMH for example), you dial it down for new players or casual games.
I've played many games of BB where you'd start your turn and my opponent would kindly remind me "Are you forgetting something?" (and vice versa), even though they were well within their rights to call an IP, but it would be a kind of dick move. It's not there to be used like a "Fnar fnar, you've activated my trap card!" which is what you (and me in my previous meta) seem to have it used like.
I would not play with that rule - full stop - again if anyone likes it What exactly does it add?????? I would equally never call someone out on that - its a pathetic thing to do given its a non gameplay element.
The first time we were shown the game by visitors to the club, I and others were called out and not only did badly at the game because of it but it left a very sour taste.
Again if and when I play it again at out club we would simply ignore the rule as in practice that's what we would do in this or any other similar game.
Unless people are just getting exited for Necro in general and start playing right now with the available rules.
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