Am I being dumb here why is there no crisis suit box up for the build your kill team selection? 2 wounds, 3+ save, elites? Am I missing a reason they have been excluded?
tyrannosaurus wrote: Again, no interest in a new GW release. So many other skirmish games I would play ahead of this [Infinity, Bushido, Marvel, Mordheim...]
Thanks for stopping by to share that.
Sharing thoughts about a gaming release on a gaming forum? Shame on me! Would you prefer "Oh my God this is so awesoooooooome, an expensive rebox with rules inferior to those freely available on the internet, woohoo!"? Better?
Actually I'd prefer you to say "I'm not interested in this. I'll just move on to something I am interested in and let others enjoy it." If you aren't interested, what is the point of even commenting. Oh. Right. You're just trolling. Carry on.
You mean exactly what he did say before MGS decided to take a gak down his neck? And if you' aren't interested in reading opinions you disagree with, what is the point of even frequenting a discussion forum? Oh. Right. You're just doing exactly what you're accusing someone else of doing, except you actually are doing it.
Seriously people, if your definition of trolling is "not gushing uncritically in agreement with my own personal taste", then just walk away from the internet now and save both yourselves and those of us capable of tolerating interaction with differing views a lot of annoyance.
I hardly took a gak down his neck, sunshine. And where was the opinion to disagree with, it was 'I don't play this and won't play this'.
I wonder what the outcome would be if I posted as frequently as tyrannosorearse does in GW threads, in other company's threads to say 'Hi, I'm posting to say I'm not interested in this product'.
It was a pointless comment, seriously, it had the same worth as me posting in the next WM/H thread to say 'I don't play WM/H'.
Whether it was trolling is possibly up for debate, whether it was vacuous isn't.
What I meant before is that they apparently removed rules that don't work well when you suddenly have each model as a separate unit.
But honestly, I wouldn't be against removing all "free rules" in such a small scale - 'cause it's too easy to optimize. The same for relics/artefacts/whatever the name for unique weapons or equipments.
And then I remember it's a game with its designers firmly believing in talking with your opponent to make an interesting game. Soooo...there is always room for house-rules if it really doesn't suit our tastes, isn't it?
daemonish wrote: Am I being dumb here why is there no crisis suit box up for the build your kill team selection? 2 wounds, 3+ save, elites? Am I missing a reason they have been excluded?
Many things are missing. For Tau, you could add the Kroots too (although, the standard kroot box is now "web exclusive", even though it's plastic, so maybe something funky is happening with that). The piranha is also a pretty nice for KT.
Even pathfinders could be used. While the markerlights are pretty useless in KT, the min squad is 4, and they can take 3 special weapons (not a powerful option, but it can definitely add variety) and a recon drone.
Anyway, my point is that many options are missing, even the ones that are fluffy and have plastic kits.
I've played Skitarii with KT in the past as well and maybe the Doctrina's are a bit OP?
I mean, I love opening up with BS7 rifles and carbines, but this may be a bit too much first-second turn leafblowing for such a small game.
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daemonish wrote: Am I being dumb here why is there no crisis suit box up for the build your kill team selection? 2 wounds, 3+ save, elites? Am I missing a reason they have been excluded?
Phew, just glad I am not being dumb. Was thinking pirana for a KT but I have a nice tester KT for my eldar and Tau and see how we do. Hoping there is a model limit implemented so we don't get 60+ models for one team. Maybe 20 models maximum.
ultimentra wrote: Doctrina Imperatives for Skitarii aren't dependent on the number of units, only Canticles are. Skitarii just get the Doctrinas as an army-wide special rule. I'm still salty that they don't get to use them. If GW is going to take away our free rules, then no other faction should get their free rules, which basically every faction except Imperial Guard and Chaos Space Marines have something. Imperial Guard have orders but they only effect one model now so they basically don't matter.
Wouldnt the orders affect everyone with in the Command Bubble and not just one guy?
Would the unit just be the single model or the Unit you bought that the Single Model Unit was apart of?
Also in regards to the Skitarii, wouldn't them having Relentless as a pretty much army wide affect make up for losing the ability to make them +1,2,3 BS for a turn? I mean they still get to move and shoot full range.t
In the case of Kill Team every model is a unit onto itself, so only one model can be bossed around by the platoon commander. This is also how we played it when someone fielded a Tempestus command squad and some Scions.
Skitarii don't just have relentless, but also FNP 6+, which can be quite a lifesaver in some cases. It's not just moving and shooting though, they can also assault afterwards, which can also be quite a lifesaver when you deny your opponent his charges and any bonuses he might get otherwise.
I'm confused...Are the full rules in the coming Kill Team box already out? Or are you talking about 6th edition or another fan made set of rules for Kill Team?
Because I don't see where you read you can't take crisis suits in your team.
We're referencing to the previous edition, which will for the most part be the same as the new rules, with some minor changes and additions from the look of it.
Also, who said you can't take those annoying piece of gak Tau contraptions?
BrookM wrote: In the case of Kill Team every model is a unit onto itself, so only one model can be bossed around by the platoon commander. This is also how we played it when someone fielded a Tempestus command squad and some Scions.
Ok, that makes sense.
Skitarii don't just have relentless, but also FNP 6+, which can be quite a lifesaver in some cases. It's not just moving and shooting though, they can also assault afterwards, which can also be quite a lifesaver when you deny your opponent his charges and any bonuses he might get otherwise.
Having played Skitarii in the last game of KT I played a couple months back, my (anecdotal) experience was that Doctrina Imperatives are just as broken as they sound at that point level. In fact my group (including myself- the player of the Skitarii) concluded that if anyone played Skitarii next time we played, they couldn't use the Imperatives.
When i started working in a game store i picked up start collecting mechanicus because i love the models but don't play 40k since i long ago lost the urge to spend an entire day getting shot at across a gothic carpark.
This however is going to motivate me to paint and convert up those skittarii into a killteam and get gaming.
fresus wrote: ...Kroots too (although, the standard kroot box is now "web exclusive", even though it's plastic, so maybe something funky is happening with that).
Nothing funky going on. Kroots don't sell and GW stores need shelf space for stuff that does. Anything that gets pulled back from the one-man stores becomes "web exclusive".
The rules will be available as a standalone download from the BL website (if you don't own an iDevice) on September 3rd. For a very reasonable price, too.
Personally excited because my corsairs will be awesome for this! Every one can take a different type of weapon (melee, shrunken catapult, splinter rifle, and lasblaster) 2 in 5 may take a special weapon (melts, blaster, shredder, and flamer) AND their character can take a power sword and other goodness to boot!
Throw in jet packs and heavy mesh armor and they'll be a diverse threat to most units in the game. Gonna be sweet
Maybe we can stick the following slab of text from the rulebook preview in the OP, so people know what Kill Team is all about:
There is no safety in numbers, no margin for error – it’s just you and your team. The mission stands upon a razor’s edge, with triumph on one side and only ignoble death upon the other. Can you emerge victorious? This is Kill Team – tense, small-scale battles in the 41st Millennium, where a single warrior can make all the difference.
The entire galaxy is at war. Rival fleets of starships clash across the black void while entire planets are turned into battlefields. Massive armies are unleashed, duelling for supremacy over land, air and sea. Yet not every battle is fought on a grandiose scale. There is another kind of war, made up of more personal battles, where the struggle is so close you can feel the draft from whirring chainsword teeth and hear the heat crackle off a plasma pulse.
Games of Kill Team put you in charge of a small band of warriors whose skill, determination and courage are put to the test as they undertake do-or-die missions without the support of a wider army. Each member of the Kill Team acts independently, but a wise leader knows that everyone must play their part if their mission is to succeed. Every individual action – every shot, every blow struck – can be the difference between victory and defeat.
The history of the 41st Millennium is replete with small-scale operations that carried vast consequences, whether by design or out of desperate need. An elite squad infiltrates a Necron tomb complex, few in number to avoid triggering the auto-defences that would awaken the ancient evil out of stasis. Can the team fight past the sentries to deliver melta-charges to the heart of the energy reactors without rousing the tomb world? Entire star systems hang in the balance. In another zone a lone Space Marine squad must escape ambush and return to their battle-brothers. The data they carry holds the secret of the enemy’s most advanced weapon prototype. Such vital information might alter the course of a war that has lasted centuries. Elsewhere, an Ork Mekaniak leads his best Burna Boyz on a scrap hunt, seeking to procure a power source to fuel a war engine that can topple hive cities. These small groups of determined warriors can have far-reaching impact on their war zones, so whether you choose a team of elite heroes, or as many expendables as you can get, they must all fight with one purpose if they are to complete their missions.
The book you now hold in your hands contains all the information and rules you’ll need to select your team and generate specialist skills for your warriors. These abilities, such as expert marksmanship or a penchant for dirty fighting, help personalise your force. After all, these aren’t just a random selection of warriors, but a squad of grizzled veterans or an eclectic gathering of last chance conscripts, or any theme you care to imagine. Further on, you will also find special missions that let you take your assembled team into action. Kill Team battles are deadly, fast-paced affairs that offer a slew of tactical challenges. A few optional rules are included that suggest how you can take your Kill Team games further, setting your Kill Teams heroic new challenges, or perhaps even linking them into a campaign. And all of that is just scratching the surface of the possibilities.
Before you delve too deeply into these pages, we offer a word of warning: there is more to Kill Team than meets the eye. Like the gnashadon – an ambushing predator from the death world of Catachan – what is seen on the surface is only a portion of what lies beneath. The scale of Kill Team, with forces often smaller than a dozen models, provides many unique hobby opportunities. Some avid modellers will want to build their Citadel Miniatures to reflect the specialist roles, for example, by creating a perfectly posed sniper or hidden infiltrator. An entire Kill Team might be customised in such a fashion, depicting torn and battle-scarred warriors or resplendent veterans laden with honour markings. Kill Team is also a great opportunity for painters to try out new techniques, like weathering a squad that has been long on the campaign, or trying out a new camouflage pattern, without having to commit to doing a whole army in a particular style.
For the tactically minded, the short, sharp nature of Kill Team lends itself to all manner of enjoyable games and variations. As the action is swift, you can get several battles in during the course of the same session! Get started with the six missions supplied within these pages, but there is no reason your battles have to end there. With narrative battles that you devise yourself, your Kill Team can protect a shield generator, defile sacred idols, or exterminate corrupt cult leaders. The battlefields of the 41st Millennium offer endless variety, allowing for some unique terrain set-ups. Fight through labyrinthine space hulks or stalk each other amongst the densest jungle death worlds – the more claustrophobic and cover-filled, the better.
There’s no end to the options, so what are you waiting for? Flip the page and give the rules a quick scan before pulling your Kill Team together and getting stuck in. Remember, make every shot count…
I've never played 40k, or really know anything about the rules at all, but this Kill Team box is interesting. Would Kill Team be an appropriate starting point for a total 40k newbie, or does it require detailed knowledge of the 40k rules and codices? And I'm not sure that I'm interested in investing in full armies for the complete 40k experience. I'm not looking for a third miniatures game right now, so would Kill Team be a satisfying experience as its own game, divorced from the greater 40k experience?
Sqorgar wrote: I've never played 40k, or really know anything about the rules at all, but this Kill Team box is interesting. Would Kill Team be an appropriate starting point for a total 40k newbie, or does it require detailed knowledge of the 40k rules and codices? And I'm not sure that I'm interested in investing in full armies for the complete 40k experience. I'm not looking for a third miniatures game right now, so would Kill Team be a satisfying experience as its own game, divorced from the greater 40k experience?
Kill team is different but an ok starting point. Combat patrol games might be more like real 40k than kill team but kill team has such a low entry point of literally a box for most things. Starting there to see if you like the mechanics and basic rules would not be a waste. Maybe starting with the starter box assuming you like dark angels or chaos and playing kill team with those minis would be a good bargain for you.
Sqorgar wrote: I've never played 40k, or really know anything about the rules at all, but this Kill Team box is interesting. Would Kill Team be an appropriate starting point for a total 40k newbie, or does it require detailed knowledge of the 40k rules and codices? And I'm not sure that I'm interested in investing in full armies for the complete 40k experience. I'm not looking for a third miniatures game right now, so would Kill Team be a satisfying experience as its own game, divorced from the greater 40k experience?
Kill Team is a great starting point. The box includes the full 40K rule book, the Kill Team rules, and the rules for both units included in the box.
This will allow you play without a codex, using the actual 40K rules, not a dumb downed version.
Sqorgar wrote: I've never played 40k, or really know anything about the rules at all, but this Kill Team box is interesting. Would Kill Team be an appropriate starting point for a total 40k newbie, or does it require detailed knowledge of the 40k rules and codices? And I'm not sure that I'm interested in investing in full armies for the complete 40k experience. I'm not looking for a third miniatures game right now, so would Kill Team be a satisfying experience as its own game, divorced from the greater 40k experience?
Yes, yes you can! This is 40k but somewhat dumbed down, faster and looser, but still friendly enough (perhaps even friendlier) to be picked up by new players and veterans alike.
The boxed set has everything you need to start playing, no army books needed.
You still need to read the 40K rules before reading the KT rules.
However, if you just start with the content of the box, you can skip many rules from the main rulebook (the whole psychic phase, the vehicles section, most unit types, almost all of the special rules etc.), so it's a lot more manageable to learn in one go. Then in the future, if you like it, you can add new units and read the corresponding rules.
I would say Kill Team is the ideal introduction to 40k and the ideal in-road for getting people to play since the cost of entry is so much lower.
I sincerely hope they continue to post free PDFs of example Kill Teams on the store (or in White Dwarf) so people can try things out without committing to an expensive codex. That was an excellent move.
In a perfect world, the Start Collecting sets would come with an additional sheet showing you how to use some of the included models in Kill Team.
I realize that the starter box comes with rules for the space marines and fire warriors, but if I wanted to get one of the other kill team groups on the GW site (like the Wraithguard or Tyranid Warriors), I would need to buy a codex for each faction, right? 40k doesn't have free unit rules. I'm assuming that the mini rulebook included with the game doesn't have unit stats in it for all the possible kill teams. And there's no AoS-like app where I can buy unit stats separately from the codices (that I'm aware of). So, realistically, to play Kill Team with a bunch of different factional teams would require a few hundred dollars in codices, right?
It just seems to me like Kill Team is less a stepping on point for new players and more like alternate scenario rules for people who already have 40k experience, armies, and books. I'm just wondering how viable it would be if I played Kill Team (and only Kill Team) as a player with no 40k experience, armies, or books.
daemonish wrote: Am I being dumb here why is there no crisis suit box up for the build your kill team selection? 2 wounds, 3+ save, elites? Am I missing a reason they have been excluded?
'Not included' =/= 'excluded'. I'd wager the web store editor just picked basic troops choices for each list plus a couple of other cool items. It's not an exhaustive 'all these are legal and only these' selection.
I sincerely hope they continue to post free PDFs of example Kill Teams on the store (or in White Dwarf) so people can try things out without committing to an expensive codex. That was an excellent move.
The free PDFs are only for the Kill Team collections, right? These are all the rules you need to play these pre-made teams? Are all the keywords on the PDFs, like "Special Rule: 'Ere We Go", included in the mini rulebook, or are they codex rules? And I'm assuming that these PDFs don't contain enough information to customize your own units, just play the one specific team?
The difficulty of getting rules is the main thing that has kept me away from 40k. If they learn anything from Age of Sigmar for the next edition of 40k, free rules should be number one.
Sqorgar wrote: I realize that the starter box comes with rules for the space marines and fire warriors, but if I wanted to get one of the other kill team groups on the GW site (like the Wraithguard or Tyranid Warriors), I would need to buy a codex for each faction, right? 40k doesn't have free unit rules. I'm assuming that the mini rulebook included with the game doesn't have unit stats in it for all the possible kill teams. And there's no AoS-like app where I can buy unit stats separately from the codices (that I'm aware of). So, realistically, to play Kill Team with a bunch of different factional teams would require a few hundred dollars in codices, right?
It just seems to me like Kill Team is less a stepping on point for new players and more like alternate scenario rules for people who already have 40k experience, armies, and books. I'm just wondering how viable it would be if I played Kill Team (and only Kill Team) as a player with no 40k experience, armies, or books.
You are correct in that the additional rules for other models, not included in Kill Team, are only available, from GW, via their respective codexes.
Spoiler:
If you want to get your toes wet, before investing in the appropriate codex, you may want to look into an App called Battle Scribe. It does not contain full codex rules, but there are fan made supplements, that are easy to update it with, that will include the rules you need to cherry pick units you would need for Kill Team.
I sincerely hope they continue to post free PDFs of example Kill Teams on the store (or in White Dwarf) so people can try things out without committing to an expensive codex. That was an excellent move.
The free PDFs are only for the Kill Team collections, right? These are all the rules you need to play these pre-made teams? Are all the keywords on the PDFs, like "Special Rule: 'Ere We Go", included in the mini rulebook, or are they codex rules? And I'm assuming that these PDFs don't contain enough information to customize your own units, just play the one specific team?
The difficulty of getting rules is the main thing that has kept me away from 40k. If they learn anything from Age of Sigmar for the next edition of 40k, free rules should be number one.
Sadly, I don't think the PDFs are enough. For instance, the Harlequin one doesn't list the profiles of their special weapons, the effect of their special wargear, or the psychic disciplines the shadowseer has access to. And I'm fairly confident that they're not included in the KT rulebook.
So, while they are nice examples, they don't allow use to play these teams without the corresponding codices, most of the time
Back onto the topic, do you believe they've balanced out the factions this time around? Or is it going to be a bit of a hodgepodge when it comes to the armywide rules.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Back onto the topic, do you believe they've balanced out the factions this time around? Or is it going to be a bit of a hodgepodge when it comes to the armywide rules.
As I understand it, changes to army wide rules are the only changes made. All the other unit rules are the same as in the codices.
The army building restrictions, as well as splitting units into single model units will change the balance between codices.
For instance, Tau's markerlight are basically useless now (since only one model can benefit from a markerlight, instead of a whole bunch of models in the same unit). And they lost access to the best units in the codex, as well as formations. On the other side, they have easy access to mass flamers (crisis suits w/ two flamers are 32pts, for a T4 W2 3+ jetpack model), which can be deadly on a terrain dense map.
Each faction will have to use very different army lists than what they use now, and I have no clue what the resulting power scale will look like. However, many things are clearly out (deathstars in general), and things like hight rate of fire weapons, which are really good in standard 40K, will be much less versatile (still good against vehicles, but very bad against infantry).
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Back onto the topic, do you believe they've balanced out the factions this time around? Or is it going to be a bit of a hodgepodge when it comes to the armywide rules.
As I understand it, changes to army wide rules are the only changes made. All the other unit rules are the same as in the codices.
The army building restrictions, as well as splitting units into single model units will change the balance between codices.
For instance, Tau's markerlight are basically useless now (since only one model can benefit from a markerlight, instead of a whole bunch of models in the same unit). And they lost access to the best units in the codex, as well as formations. On the other side, they have easy access to mass flamers (crisis suits w/ two flamers are 32pts, for a T4 W2 3+ jetpack model), which can be deadly on a terrain dense map.
Each faction will have to use very different army lists than what they use now, and I have no clue what the resulting power scale will look like. However, many things are clearly out (deathstars in general), and things like hight rate of fire weapons, which are really good in standard 40K, will be much less versatile (still good against vehicles, but very bad against infantry).
What he is trying to say, is that 40K is saved! Amen!
Just kidding. For all the points mentioned above and more, I am excited for this release.
Am tempted to pick this one up although don't need another game just yet. Have always liked the look of the muted colours of raptor marines and the idea of using camo of sorts.
Could really go to town on making them look beaten up as if they are being hunted or are a small strike team stranded on a hostile planet trying to cause chaos on the enemy. Hell might even load up a vehicle with stowage just for the cool factor.
So I have a sneaking suspicion that I wouldn't be the only one fielding Deathwatch this time around, and that simply won't satisfy my need to be a special snowflake.
I've decided it's an ample opportunity to unpack my Sisters of Battle.
And at least one conversion.
At first I was thinking of kitbashing a penitent engine (even drew up a couple of sketches) and fielding it with some seraphim, but the more I thought about it the more I wanted to put together something with a healthier number of models and less knee-jerk.
With that in mind, I bought a vindicator and started work converting it to a rhino.
It's interesting (maybe surprising) that in the Kill Team rules, Orks lose Mob Rule, but Tyranids don't lose Instinctive Behavior. I know that Zoanthropes/Warriors are important parts of KT, but to me, that seems pretty restrictive. Maybe GW will do something like HoR and double synapse range?
I think for Nids players will either go with stealers or all synapse creatures. Tyranid Warriors are a fair bit scarier in Kill Team than standard 40k.
Ben2 wrote: I think for Nids players will either go with stealers or all synapse creatures. Tyranid Warriors are a fair bit scarier in Kill Team than standard 40k.
I kind of love hearing statements like that. Hearing about people fielding Penitent Engines, and Tyranid Warriors makes me think Kill Team will be a fun game to add into our various group's rotations of games. :-)
Ben2 wrote: I think for Nids players will either go with stealers or all synapse creatures. Tyranid Warriors are a fair bit scarier in Kill Team than standard 40k.
I kind of love hearing statements like that. Hearing about people fielding Penitent Engines, and Tyranid Warriors makes me think Kill Team will be a fun game to add into our various group's rotations of games. :-)
I think it won't take long before people come up with very broken lists (which could be even worse than in normal 40K, since there might be way fewer counters due to the restrictions on what you can field).
I do have high hopes for KT, but I think the amount of fun will be, just like in regular 40K, directly related to the people you play with, and how your definition of fun matches theirs.
People who bring the cheesiest lists to 40K will do the same thing in KT (it will be a very different list, but a very OP list nonetheless). And the ones who already bring fluffy lists to 40K will do the same in KT (and maybe have a name for each of their character).
They didn't change much of the core rules, or any of the codex entries. Optimized lists from strong codices will still walk over fluffy lists from weak codices.
I do hope it will bring a fun new way to play with people I can already play with, but I have little hope of KT being a good platform to reconcile powergamers and beer and pretzel guys.
It really depends on the player groups with regards to broken lists. Some groups will always have witches in there who want to put out the most broken gak possible and ruin the game for others.
Certain vehicles can also be bordering on the side of cheese, like the Chimera and Devilfish, whom are both quite tough, not to mention quite the powerhouses in terms of fire power and / or durability.
Perhaps even more so seeing as vehicles can apparently get USR's again.
BrookM wrote: Certain vehicles can also be bordering on the side of cheese, like the Chimera and Devilfish, whom are both quite tough, not to mention quite the powerhouses in terms of fire power and / or durability.
Perhaps even more so seeing as vehicles can apparently get USR's again.
Requizen wrote: Can you DS in Kill Team? Tempestus Scions would be pretty powerful if that's the case.
You can't put anything in reserves except for 1 mission that allows/forces you to, and a Leader Trait (kind of like a warlord trait) that lets you outflank with a d3 units.
Again, this is from 6th edition rules. Not sure what the new rules will allow.
Actually at this low point level Tauroxes could be ok... except they're still pretty expensive for what they do. Would be a fluffy list if nothing else.
BrookM wrote: I love my relentless hotshot volleygun and my cover ignoring plasma gun.
True, not a bad option there. At the same time, speaking from experience, footslogging those really squishy bodies is a pain when you pay a lot of points for DS/MTC. Each one being the same price as a Space Marine but without ATSKNF/3+ is... suboptimal. I'll play with it anyway, very excited for Kill Team nonetheless!
tyrannosaurus wrote: Again, no interest in a new GW release. So many other skirmish games I would play ahead of this [Infinity, Bushido, Marvel, Mordheim...]
Thanks for stopping by to share that.
Sharing thoughts about a gaming release on a gaming forum? Shame on me! Would you prefer "Oh my God this is so awesoooooooome, an expensive rebox with rules inferior to those freely available on the internet, woohoo!"? Better?
Actually I'd prefer you to say "I'm not interested in this. I'll just move on to something I am interested in and let others enjoy it." If you aren't interested, what is the point of even commenting. Oh. Right. You're just trolling. Carry on.
You mean exactly what he did say before MGS decided to take a gak down his neck? And if you' aren't interested in reading opinions you disagree with, what is the point of even frequenting a discussion forum? Oh. Right. You're just doing exactly what you're accusing someone else of doing, except you actually are doing it.
Seriously people, if your definition of trolling is "not gushing uncritically in agreement with my own personal taste", then just walk away from the internet now and save both yourselves and those of us capable of tolerating interaction with differing views a lot of annoyance.
I hardly took a gak down his neck, sunshine. And where was the opinion to disagree with, it was 'I don't play this and won't play this'.
I wonder what the outcome would be if I posted as frequently as tyrannosorearse does in GW threads, in other company's threads to say 'Hi, I'm posting to say I'm not interested in this product'.
It was a pointless comment, seriously, it had the same worth as me posting in the next WM/H thread to say 'I don't play WM/H'.
Whether it was trolling is possibly up for debate, whether it was vacuous isn't.
Okay, third time lucky at posting in this thread, after being accused of both spam and trolling [who mods the mods?] I've been playing GW games for years, started trying other things, and would love to be tempted back by a quality release. My post was to show disappointment that this would not be it. As a skirmish game I don't believe KT bears favourable comparison with other skirmish games that have been designed as skirmish games, as it is essentially 40k lite rather than being an entirely new game designed to be played on a model by model basis. In addition, it's not as though the models will tempt me back either, as they are merely a reboxing of existing sprues.
My point about tinpot admins still stands though, although paying the DCM tax does seem to guarantee freedom of speech. Might see if I can find 15 squid so that my posts don't get deleted.
Since some people seemed interested in hearing about Herald of Ruins rules: MiniWarGaming filmed a narrative campaign involving a Deathwatch kill team (it was a few month ago, so not with the current deathwatch codex). I think it's one of their best shows, and it really has all the aspects of a nice skirmish version of 40K: http://www.miniwargaming.com/show/augustines-station (half of the videos are only accessible to people who pay a subscription, but the other half is free).
They used a home brew version of HoR rules, and they're currently in the process of updating them for an upcoming campaign (https://www.dropbox.com/s/yqxh187huupb4xr/Deathwatch%20Campaign%20Sequel.pdf?dl=0). The campaign aspect is much more fleshed out than in HoR (each character has XP, levels up and gain new special rules etc.). I've never played with their rules, and in their campaign they have a game master controlling various xenos factions, so it might be harder to play with people, but it sure looks like a fun mix between 40K and a classic RPG.
Edit: I started reading the rules I put the link to, and they're quite different than the one they used in the campaign a few month back
Ben2 wrote: I think for Nids players will either go with stealers or all synapse creatures. Tyranid Warriors are a fair bit scarier in Kill Team than standard 40k.
Well, why not a Lictor? Looks like you could field even four of them (the Ork team they sell has two Elites) - one Leader and three specialists. Don't forget to bring some extra terrain.
BrookM wrote: I love my relentless hotshot volleygun and my cover ignoring plasma gun.
True, not a bad option there. At the same time, speaking from experience, footslogging those really squishy bodies is a pain when you pay a lot of points for DS/MTC. Each one being the same price as a Space Marine but without ATSKNF/3+ is... suboptimal. I'll play with it anyway, very excited for Kill Team nonetheless!
In my experience, the most fun Kill Team games are played on tables with 50%-75% terrain coverage, including lots of areas of difficult terrain, and a smattering of dangerous terrain as well. Played that way, you get a lot of mileage out of Move Through Cover, and all that terrain makes 3+ saves a bit less important as well.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Making KT lists really is proving to be fun. I think i'll take a short break from painting Age of Sigmar armies and assemble and paint a few Kill Teams for armies I always liked models from, but would never commit to building full armies of. Dark Eldar, here I come!
I just want to mentioned this has been the same for me. I ended up going to AoS now that it has a points/FoC system and the joke rules are gone. It's felt alot better then the crazy formations you see in 40kATM. Kill Team cleaning out the formation shenanigans is what I relay need ATM from that game.
tyrannosaurus wrote: My point about tinpot admins still stands though, although paying the DCM tax does seem to guarantee freedom of speech. Might see if I can find 15 squid so that my posts don't get deleted.
No it fething does not. Being a DCM does not mean we get away with anything.
Ambience 327 wrote: In my experience, the most fun Kill Team games are played on tables with 50%-75% terrain coverage, including lots of areas of difficult terrain, and a smattering of dangerous terrain as well. Played that way, you get a lot of mileage out of Move Through Cover, and all that terrain makes 3+ saves a bit less important as well.
This, oh-so much this! I've seen people play it on minimal terrain tables and lament that certain engagements were over in a turn or two, but you need to have a good amount of terrain on the table to make the most of this, especially with a lower model count it pays off to take a moment or two to get those models into the best cover possible.
BrookM wrote: I love my relentless hotshot volleygun and my cover ignoring plasma gun.
True, not a bad option there. At the same time, speaking from experience, footslogging those really squishy bodies is a pain when you pay a lot of points for DS/MTC. Each one being the same price as a Space Marine but without ATSKNF/3+ is... suboptimal. I'll play with it anyway, very excited for Kill Team nonetheless!
In my experience, the most fun Kill Team games are played on tables with 50%-75% terrain coverage, including lots of areas of difficult terrain, and a smattering of dangerous terrain as well. Played that way, you get a lot of mileage out of Move Through Cover, and all that terrain makes 3+ saves a bit less important as well.
Somebody plays even basic 40k with less than 50% terrain? Silly idea.
streetsamurai wrote: Got to hand it to GW. They have remove that ridiculous MT bundle. Seems like they do read message boards.
Oh good, that was slightly embarrassing. Hopefully they bring it back at a discount when they smack someone in management around the face with a kipper.
Really they should just add the PDF for that guy's Kill Team to the Start Collecting MT page.
It's posting was kind of a head-scratcher. But then they sell a Seraphon Carnosaur for $85 and a Start Collecting Seraphon box (with a Carnosaur and a bunch of other stuff) for $85 as well so ...
I'd really like to see example Kill Team PDFs from all factions, I really like them though I see now that you would still need to appropriate codex.
Actually at this low point level Tauroxes could be ok... except they're still pretty expensive for what they do. Would be a fluffy list if nothing else.
Necrons it is, though.
Nine tomb blades with gauss, nebuloscopes and shield vanes.
It can be an absolutely devastating kill team, since everyone seems to like relying on cover saves.
Actually at this low point level Tauroxes could be ok... except they're still pretty expensive for what they do. Would be a fluffy list if nothing else.
Necrons it is, though.
Nine tomb blades with gauss, nebuloscopes and shield vanes.
It can be an absolutely devastating kill team, since everyone seems to like relying on cover saves.
A poster on another site I go to says this: Scouts are king in Kill Team. Infiltrate/Scout + Camo Cloaks makes them very efficient models at low point counts, and Sniper Rifles make them threats against anything but vehicles (which are rare in Kill Team). But Tomb Blades have Ignores Cover AP4, and are therefore the direct counter. Countering the King doesn't make you King, but it sure helps.
We don't yet know that the new Kill Team Force Organization chart will be the same as the old, do we?
But it's very likely since so little else is changed.
I think my best Kill Team will be five Black Knight models. But I think the missions will greatly shape the meta and which units yield the best mix of mobility, range, toughness and firepower. I think about a dozen Scouts will also be great.
Mine will be..
Sergeant with Xenophase and combi-melta
Veteran with Stalker (Relentless)
Veteran with boltgun and power weapon
Veteran with Infernus (Ignore Cover)
Veteran with shotgun and power weapon (Outflank)
I think that leaves me 10 points to give the Blackshield a Melee weapon of some flavour.
BrookM wrote:Mine will be.. Sergeant with Xenophase and combi-melta Veteran with Stalker (Relentless) Veteran with boltgun and power weapon Veteran with Infernus (Ignore Cover) Veteran with shotgun and power weapon (Outflank)
Mine would be closer to Brooks I think, with a Frag Cannon instead of the Infernus (sometimes). Other than maybe the special rules, but Relentless was definitely what I was considering on the Stalker Boltgun. In a higher point game, maybe squeeze in a Razorback
Edit: Actually all that with a Frag Cannon instead of the Infernus would be 5 points over...
I thought about taking both a frag cannon and an Infernus, but decided instead to get some more choppy stuff in instead, just to act as a bigger deterrent to enemy assaults.
It also occurred to me that the Infernus will in this game type hardly ever be assaulted, as the heavy flamer will nicely grant it Wall of Death.
You can't fire template weapons in overwatch, and split fire is for one model in a unit shooting at a different target to the rest of his unit, not one model splitting his shots between multiple enemies (although I remember Kill Team having such a rule in the past for multi-shot weapons)
*E* oh, wall of death is an actual rule! So although it says in the overwatch rule that weapons that can't fire snap shots can't fire overwatch, in templates it says they get to do wall of death instead. That's horrible writing
Dominion Squad:
Superior w/ pistol and bolter (Leader, maybe)
Flamer (poison)
Flamer (sniper)
Stormbolter
Stormbolter
Sororitas Rhino
Battle Sisters Squad:
Superior w/ pistol and bolter
Bolter
Bolter
Flamer
Multi-melta (infiltrate? scout? relentless if there's no other option)
Rounds out nicely and I'm happy I can put out so many models and a vehicle. Mostly lifted from a list I saw around here or another board.
At 250 I'm able to shift focus and fit my seraphim in as well:
Battle Sisters Squad:
Superior w/ pistol and stormbolter
Bolter
Bolter
Stormbolter
Multi-melta (Infiltration or something)
Sororitas Rhino w/ extra armour
Maybe I could take out a seraphim and give the superior a power sword, not super-committed yet, but I did put in an order for some special weapons sisters and began converting a vindicator.
BrookM wrote: I don't think it works in this occasion, not unless you have split fire, which may not work when overwatching to begin with.
Oh I was meaning more in standard shooting. Wouldnt the template still hit everyone? If they were bunched up anyway.
I know some who do, but nine times out of ten (my regular opponents that is) keep their models spaced out a bit, as if they fear frag grenade spam or something.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bull0 wrote: You can't fire template weapons in overwatch, and split fire is for one model in a unit shooting at a different target to the rest of his unit, not one model splitting his shots between multiple enemies (although I remember Kill Team having such a rule in the past for multi-shot weapons)
*E* oh, wall of death is an actual rule! So although it says in the overwatch rule that weapons that can't fire snap shots can't fire overwatch, in templates it says they get to do wall of death instead. That's horrible writing
The kill team wording for split fire is different. If you've got more than one shot on your ranged weapon and the model has split fire, you may fire at different targets, you just need to say so before rolling the dice.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: So how does this work? I take 2 units of 11 Pink Horrors. How many WC do I generate? If it's 22...
Brotherhood of psychers / sorcerers doesn't work in KT (it's in one of the preview pages on BL's website).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
axisofentropy wrote: We don't yet know that the new Kill Team Force Organization chart will be the same as the old, do we?
I haven't seen anything on that front.
Actually, I read somewhere that one of the boxes in the "make you kill team" section on GW website was a HS choice. But I haven't checked it myself (and it could be a mistake on the website).
Edit: found it (I just had to use the filter by FOC slot…), it's the Adeptus Mechanicus Ironstrider Ballistarius. But the kit can also be built as a Sydonian Dragoon. I don't own the skiitari codex, but I could see how this stuff could be a FA choice. If it is, then all the kits on GW's website are Elites, FA or Troops, so it's very likely that the FOC stays the same as in the previous edition.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: So how does this work? I take 2 units of 11 Pink Horrors. How many WC do I generate? If it's 22...
Not sure whether you are fething trolling again or not. You're always such an obnoxiously unfunny asshat that it's hard to see when you are being serious or not.
I am serious. How does this work? They each have the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule so each unit is a ML1 psyker.
I'd also kindly refer you to Dakka rule #1. Thanks.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: So how does this work? I take 2 units of 11 Pink Horrors. How many WC do I generate? If it's 22...
Not sure whether you are fething trolling again or not. You're always such an obnoxiously unfunny asshat that it's hard to see when you are being serious or not.
I am serious. How does this work? They each have the Brotherhood of Psykers special rule so each unit is a ML1 psyker.
Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers does nothing in Kill Team.
If you take 2 units of 11 Pink Horrors, you generate zero warp charges.
There are basically no Psykers in Kill Team, since most of them are HQ choices and the brotherhood style psykers get nerfed.
Psykers are supposed to be more of a rarity for these missions, seen as something that is highly unsuited and a waste of a valued asset for "lowly" special operations.
The Brood Lord is a nicely fluffy exception of course.
streetsamurai wrote: Got to hand it to GW. They have remove that ridiculous MT bundle. Seems like they do read message boards.
Were people really complaining about that?
Yes, yes they were though, not entirely by AoS active/potential players. GW has started taking in feedback on FB pages but the best is to email them directly with literally anything you want to say, ask or request about their products (respectful and on topic, naturally) and ask your message to be sent to the decision maker for that item. I'm still on this kick from last year after talking to the relevant staffers at in-person events and discovering how little written feedback they actually get (and are pleasantly surprised when it actually comes in). Then because we don't necessarily know who makes the decisions (management) above the visible staff (editors, authors, designers, etc.) so ask for it to be passed on. Then they return a confirmation email so you know it was received and redirected. Seems like more feedback is coming in and combined with dedicated staff and the new social media/community outreach GW is doing this is much better than nothing. It's no magic wand but it's an effort and has better chance than just open commenting.
BrookM wrote: Psykers are supposed to be more of a rarity for these missions, seen as something that is highly unsuited and a waste of a valued asset for "lowly" special operations.
The Brood Lord is a nicely fluffy exception of course.
And if you really feel like suffering, you can use some Rubric Marines and suffer through Tzeentch powers on your Aspiring Sorcerer.
BrookM wrote: Mine will be..
Sergeant with Xenophase and combi-melta
Veteran with Stalker (Relentless)
Veteran with boltgun and power weapon
Veteran with Infernus (Ignore Cover)
Veteran with shotgun and power weapon (Outflank)
If you have some PA Lightning claws spare, use them instead of power weapons. Same points cost as a standard power weapon, and not having a pistol as there other weapon means Vets are not penalized for only having one claw.
BrookM wrote: Mine will be..
Sergeant with Xenophase and combi-melta
Veteran with Stalker (Relentless)
Veteran with boltgun and power weapon
Veteran with Infernus (Ignore Cover)
Veteran with shotgun and power weapon (Outflank)
If you have some PA Lightning claws spare, use them instead of power weapons. Same points cost as a standard power weapon, and not having a pistol as there other weapon means Vets are not penalized for only having one claw.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I would kill for a really thoughtful, expanded Kill Team. I don't expect one, per se, but a Kill Team, given a Necromunda treatment, with campaign rules, a more thought into each armies skills, etc...
It would be a terrific introduction for newer players to the hobby, as well.
Amen my friend. Would start so many new armies if they did this
Oh absolutely, and the sword arms do look cool on the Vets. Its just that baring a FAQ points adjustment there is no downside to taking a single claw over a power weapon.
At least in Killteam. In the standard game where your Vets are a apart of a Specialized Killteam, having a Lightning Claw is redundant against the team's chosen target, and having Re-roll all failed wounds on a Power Maul seems pretty good to me.
So how are brotherhood of psyker affected by the rules? Is each brotherhood model a psyker on its own or is it still counted as only one can cast from the entire unit?
Hulksmash wrote: So how are brotherhood of psyker affected by the rules? Is each brotherhood model a psyker on its own or is it still counted as only one can cast from the entire unit?
I've heard tell that Brotherhood of Psykers doesn't work at all. Which makes Pink Horrors into really expensive unarmed guardsmen.
Hulksmash wrote: So how are brotherhood of psyker affected by the rules? Is each brotherhood model a psyker on its own or is it still counted as only one can cast from the entire unit?
I was serious. Sometimes people miss things. Answering politely is a plus. God knows I've done it more than once to genuine questions that might be answered in an obscure post.
As for getting smashed, not really! Not unless you keep hanging back or the like. You've got enough models to soak up quite a few casualties before needing to take a break test and even with no real armour save some armies will still struggle to reliably drop an ork, especially when you got so many of them.
I'm thinking of running a squad of 7 Death Company as a killteam.
5 armed with jump packs, bolt pistols & chainswords
1 armed with a jump pack, bolt pistol & power weapon (sword)
1 armed with a jump pack, Boltgun & power fist.
Totals up to 196 points.
The other build I was considering was a Blood Angels command squad, kitted out with jump packs, 3x storm shields, one power fist, and meltabombs. Just 5 models, and it clocks in at 195 points.
The only question I have is if each model is considered a unit unto itself, does that mean the Sanguinary Novitiate's Narthecium only benefits that model, or does it still confer FnP to the rest of the squad as normal?
The Death Company squad looks like the most fun. Hoping to get to try it out at some point. We'll see.
Red__Thirst wrote: I'm thinking of running a squad of 7 Death Company as a killteam.
5 armed with jump packs, bolt pistols & chainswords
1 armed with a jump pack, bolt pistol & power weapon (sword)
1 armed with a jump pack, Boltgun & power fist.
Totals up to 196 points.
The other build I was considering was a Blood Angels command squad, kitted out with jump packs, 3x storm shields, one power fist, and meltabombs. Just 5 models, and it clocks in at 195 points.
The only question I have is if each model is considered a unit unto itself, does that mean the Sanguinary Novitiate's Narthecium only benefits that model, or does it still confer FnP to the rest of the squad as normal?
The Death Company squad looks like the most fun. Hoping to get to try it out at some point. We'll see.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
Each model is a unit, it would only affect the model holding it.
BrookM wrote: Unless the command squad is an elites choice it may not be taken for this game.
And yes, most models that usually confer special rules or abilities to the rest of the squad are now more or less useless.
Yea it is an Elite choice, and that tears it on being a viable killteam. If I could field the squad sans the Sanguinary Novitiate it would be excellent, however paying points for a model with no upgrade options beyond adding a jump pack and locked in to having a bolt pistol, chainsword, and narthecium, I'd rather consider running a tactical squad plus transport and maybe scouts if there's room.
Good to know for future games and list building for killteam though.
Just realized that Kroot hounds are so much better in KT, because they don't have to stay with the kroots. WS4 S3 I5 A2 on a beast, for 5ppm is pretty good. They'll finally be able to use their 12" movement, and charge whatever they want.
10 kroots + 10 hounds is 110pts, so you can't field more than 10 hounds (you need to buy 10 normal kroot to unlock 0-10 hounds), but that's already a force that can do stuff in melee, and has a decent volume of fire. And it's easy to add low AP and anti-armor with crisis suits to fill the points (or go crazy and get 5 vespids for a tauless tau empire force!).
Ambience 327 wrote: I would argue that they no longer count as Psykers for the purposes of the Condemnor boltgun or similar items. The rule specifically states:
The Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerors special rule has no effect in games of Kill Team.
Since it says "no effect", I would say that we are to take that literally and completely ignore the rule for all purposes.
I'd argue back that the wording doesn't explicitly remove the rule itself, and the condemnor's effect on psykers is a property of the weapon and not a property of the BoP rule.
That said, let's agree to disagree, there's no way I'm sacrificing a multi-melta or two of any other non-heavy special weapon in the far-off chance I'm going to encounter a multi-wound psyker in Kill Team.
Ambience 327 wrote: I would argue that they no longer count as Psykers for the purposes of the Condemnor boltgun or similar items. The rule specifically states:
The Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerors special rule has no effect in games of Kill Team.
Since it says "no effect", I would say that we are to take that literally and completely ignore the rule for all purposes.
I'd argue back that the wording doesn't explicitly remove the rule itself, and the condemnor's effect on psykers is a property of the weapon and not a property of the BoP rule.
That said, let's agree to disagree, there's no way I'm sacrificing a multi-melta or two of any other non-heavy special weapon in the far-off chance I'm going to encounter a multi-wound psyker in Kill Team.
Obviously a gray area and quite debatable, but I err on the side of not overly penalizing someone for using a unit where they are already paying for an ability they can't use by also leaving them with particular vulnerabilities based on that same ability. It just seems more sporting.
Ambience 327 wrote: Obviously a gray area and quite debatable, but I err on the side of not overly penalizing someone for using a unit where they are already paying for an ability they can't use by also leaving them with particular vulnerabilities based on that same ability. It just seems more sporting.
Ultimately if you've spent more points to take psy-bros and I've spent more points to take condemnor boltguns, neither of us are really trying anyway.
BrookM wrote: Isn't the Condemnor a one-use only weapon though?
Yes, you're paying as much as a melta for the incredible one-time chance to kill something less effectively than if you just used a melta.
While an arse to play against, it will do superbly well on the Infiltrate the Camp mission, where I'd normally just field a sturdy transport and gun it. In this case though, just have everything advance and don't stop for anything! I mean, if the opponent does really poorly, you've got 60 potential VP's there!
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: At least in Killteam. In the standard game where your Vets are a apart of a Specialized Killteam, having a Lightning Claw is redundant against the team's chosen target, and having Re-roll all failed wounds on a Power Maul seems pretty good to me.
Reroll against everything vs reroll against specific target=lc win hands down.
Only case where LC MIGHT be inferior is of course power axe/power maul though those are pretty specialized cases. You are almost certainly still shooting yourself to foot though not as badly as with power sword at least.
But LC vs power sword is plain obvious LC wins. Power sword is very definition of word pointless.
MrFlutterPie wrote: I wonder how many grots I can fit into a single kill team?
56 grots and 4 herders
2 x squads of:
10grots 1 herder 35pts
Plus 18 extra grots 54pts
Plus 1 herder 10pts (1 required for every 10 extra grots)
99pts per squad.
I'm ready for kill hoard!
Reminds me a bit of necromunda campaign I was in part of. One guy had been ridiculously lucky with settlements so was overflooding with free juves whom he actually couldn't AFFORD to arm so basically he had huge wave of knife armed guys running ahead. Not much more of a threat than grot! (actually grot is more of a threat. They sport a gun!).
Strenght in numbers is bigger advantage in small scale games. That would be tough to face without a vechile.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: At least in Killteam. In the standard game where your Vets are a apart of a Specialized Killteam, having a Lightning Claw is redundant against the team's chosen target, and having Re-roll all failed wounds on a Power Maul seems pretty good to me.
Reroll against everything vs reroll against specific target=lc win hands down.
Only case where LC MIGHT be inferior is of course power axe/power maul though those are pretty specialized cases. You are almost certainly still shooting yourself to foot though not as badly as with power sword at least.
But LC vs power sword is plain obvious LC wins. Power sword is very definition of word pointless.
Or I'll just send my specialized Teams after their target at which point the LC is Redundant.
MrFlutterPie wrote: I wonder how many grots I can fit into a single kill team?
56 grots and 4 herders
2 x squads of:
10grots 1 herder 35pts
Plus 18 extra grots 54pts
Plus 1 herder 10pts (1 required for every 10 extra grots)
99pts per squad.
I'm ready for kill hoard!
Panic...
The ability to secure all the objectives combined with your opponents inability to kill enough models in the allotted amount of game turns will make this an almost brokenly good combination.
I haven't used grots, but I have used an Astra Militarum Infantry Platoon with a conscript squad to similar effect, and it was unbeatable.
Hulksmash wrote: I was serious. Sometimes people miss things. Answering politely is a plus. God knows I've done it more than once to genuine questions that might be answered in an obscure post.
Thank you for the info.
Well, that's good then - there were far too many LULZ posts going on in this thread a few back of yours... I can't tell sometimes!
Not gonna lie, pretty surprised how much stuff IG can bring at 200pts
Platoon command squad: Autocannons, Meltagun, Heavy flamer -60pts
Infantry squad: Autocannons, Melta gun -70pts
Infantry squad:Autocannon, melta gun -70pts
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really don't like a model cap under 25, it means for IG my only choices are vets, stormtroopers, ratlings, ogryn, rough riders, sentinels, and Chimeras. Because that list is a single troop slot for IG. It's the only way to bring regular guardsmen.
I mean, I guess I could just take 4 armored sentinels with multilasers and one with a heavy flamer, but surely there's a vehicle cap
MrMoustaffa wrote: Not gonna lie, pretty surprised how much stuff IG can bring at 200pts
Platoon command squad: Autocannons, Meltagun, Heavy flamer -60pts
Infantry squad: Autocannons, Melta gun -70pts
Infantry squad:Autocannon, melta gun -70pts
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really don't like a model cap under 25, it means for IG my only choices are vets, stormtroopers, ratlings, ogryn, rough riders, sentinels, and Chimeras. Because that list is a single troop slot for IG. It's the only way to bring regular guardsmen.
While you are getting that, unless I want to trade upgrades for a couple extra bodies, I get 5 Deathwatch Marines. So, excuse me if I'm not bothered by a limit to the max number of guys you can bring.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Not gonna lie, pretty surprised how much stuff IG can bring at 200pts
Platoon command squad: Autocannons, Meltagun, Heavy flamer -60pts
Infantry squad: Autocannons, Melta gun -70pts
Infantry squad:Autocannon, melta gun -70pts
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really don't like a model cap under 25, it means for IG my only choices are vets, stormtroopers, ratlings, ogryn, rough riders, sentinels, and Chimeras. Because that list is a single troop slot for IG. It's the only way to bring regular guardsmen.
While you are getting that, unless I want to trade upgrades for a couple extra bodies, I get 5 Deathwatch Marines. So, excuse me if I'm not bothered by a limit to the max number of guys you can bring.
Well it does kind of severely limit the options of horde armies. Think about how orks, IG, nids, and or chaos players that like cultists feel.
Youre basically telling us we can't use our staple troop units. It'd be like me banning +3 armor saves.
BrookM wrote:For the upcoming tournament, we'll be having a model cap of fifteen max.
Shameful. When some Grots or other poor armies get a chance to shine, someone has to put them down. Oh well I guess the Tau/Eldar/Space Marine players still have to make rules so they have an easier chance to play.
They have an easier time playing big games, now people need to force people so they can play easier at small point games. Shameful. Really 15 models.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Not gonna lie, pretty surprised how much stuff IG can bring at 200pts
Platoon command squad: Autocannons, Meltagun, Heavy flamer -60pts
Infantry squad: Autocannons, Melta gun -70pts
Infantry squad:Autocannon, melta gun -70pts
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really don't like a model cap under 25, it means for IG my only choices are vets, stormtroopers, ratlings, ogryn, rough riders, sentinels, and Chimeras. Because that list is a single troop slot for IG. It's the only way to bring regular guardsmen.
While you are getting that, unless I want to trade upgrades for a couple extra bodies, I get 5 Deathwatch Marines. So, excuse me if I'm not bothered by a limit to the max number of guys you can bring.
Well it does kind of severely limit the options of horde armies. Think about how orks, IG, nids, and or chaos players that like cultists feel.
Youre basically telling us we can't use our staple troop units. It'd be like me banning +3 armor saves.
It hardly limits with a cap of 15, that's still ten more guys, that each act as their own individual unit. You aren't gonna be able to kill some of them to force Morale, you're gonna have to kill pretty much each and everyone of them.
15 is a bit tight. 25 seems fairer. A model cap is good for tournament play though. I went to a GW killteam tourniquet a few years back. Some guy brought 40 cultists. No-one could make a dentist in his force. He swamped everyone.
Not fun when you've brought 10 guys along.
Leggy wrote: 15 is a bit tight. 25 seems fairer. A model cap is good for tournament play though. I went to a GW killteam tourniquet a few years back. Some guy brought 40 cultists. No-one could make a dentist in his force. He swamped everyone.
Not fun when you've brought 10 guys along.
I hate it when I can't make a dentist in my enemies force
Though I gotta agree that a model cap is good, Kill Team (in my mind) is more where the elite meet to smash face and take names, rather than swamping people in disposable bodies.
Leggy wrote: 15 is a bit tight. 25 seems fairer. A model cap is good for tournament play though. I went to a GW killteam tourniquet a few years back. Some guy brought 40 cultists. No-one could make a dentist in his force. He swamped everyone.
Not fun when you've brought 10 guys along.
I hate it when I can't make a dentist in my enemies force
Maybe some flamers might take a bite out of their numbers?
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: At least in Killteam. In the standard game where your Vets are a apart of a Specialized Killteam, having a Lightning Claw is redundant against the team's chosen target, and having Re-roll all failed wounds on a Power Maul seems pretty good to me.
Reroll against everything vs reroll against specific target=lc win hands down.
Only case where LC MIGHT be inferior is of course power axe/power maul though those are pretty specialized cases. You are almost certainly still shooting yourself to foot though not as badly as with power sword at least.
But LC vs power sword is plain obvious LC wins. Power sword is very definition of word pointless.
Or I'll just send my specialized Teams after their target at which point the LC is Redundant.
You can't quarantee you'll always be fighting their target. Last turn. Non-target camps at objective. You need to kill that unit but no other unit is in range. You seriously going to attack your target type rather than non target type just because you don't get rerolls? When charging non type is literally ONLY way for you to win the game? Odd decision if so.
And don't bother saying odds are slim. For starters these sort of things happen often, for second there's no DOWNSIDE for having LC. Nothing. None whatsoever. There is no scenario where power sword is better. Even if it's 1 time out of a MILLION LC is still better with no downsides.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Not gonna lie, pretty surprised how much stuff IG can bring at 200pts
Platoon command squad: Autocannons, Meltagun, Heavy flamer -60pts
Infantry squad: Autocannons, Melta gun -70pts
Infantry squad:Autocannon, melta gun -70pts
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really don't like a model cap under 25, it means for IG my only choices are vets, stormtroopers, ratlings, ogryn, rough riders, sentinels, and Chimeras. Because that list is a single troop slot for IG. It's the only way to bring regular guardsmen.
While you are getting that, unless I want to trade upgrades for a couple extra bodies, I get 5 Deathwatch Marines. So, excuse me if I'm not bothered by a limit to the max number of guys you can bring.
Well it does kind of severely limit the options of horde armies. Think about how orks, IG, nids, and or chaos players that like cultists feel.
Youre basically telling us we can't use our staple troop units. It'd be like me banning +3 armor saves.
It hardly limits with a cap of 15, that's still ten more guys, that each act as their own individual unit. You aren't gonna be able to kill some of them to force Morale, you're gonna have to kill pretty much each and everyone of them.
It just means Guard is stuck using only vets and stormtroopers essentially. Which annoys me because at that point we have to take a chimera or something because theres no way I could field an IG kill team under 15 models without a transport or sentinel, or maybe taking a stormtrooper team as my 5 extra. So now I'm stuck fighting your super death watch with slightly more men, but unlike your super boltguns and shot guns, I'm at best going to have carapace armored guys with lasguns. There's a reason guard needs more models, because our infantry need numbers to win. It's literally how our codex is supposed to function.
If your limit was say 25 models, or even 20, I'd be much more inclined to not fight it, but 15 is a bit extreme. That means I can't even take 2 vet squads. Because vets are only bought in 10 man units.
What I'm saying is that you're taking the limit way too far. I don't buy for a second that a codex like deathwatch, which has a weapon for literally any situation, can't figure out a way to stop 5pt guardsmen in flak armor, even at 5 to 1 numbers.
A list like the grot swarm posted above or a platoon with conscripts I can see being a bit ridiculous, but not even allowing 20 models is just taking it too far.
While I think a model cap is a good thing, and obviously if your play group wants a 15 model cap more power to them, but I do feel 15 is really limiting to Guard/Orks/Nids. I think 25 is a more appropriate cap. That way you let a number of armies function like they normally would, without slowing the game down too much. Many more than 25 models and I feel the game would get too bogged down.
It just means Guard is stuck using only vets and stormtroopers essentially. Which annoys me because at that point we have to take a chimera or something because theres no way I could field an IG kill team under 15 models without a transport or sentinel, or maybe taking a stormtrooper team as my 5 extra. So now I'm stuck fighting your super death watch with slightly more men, but unlike your super boltguns and shot guns, I'm at best going to have carapace armored guys with lasguns. There's a reason guard needs more models, because our infantry need numbers to win. It's literally how our codex is supposed to function.
If your limit was say 25 models, or even 20, I'd be much more inclined to not fight it, but 15 is a bit extreme. That means I can't even take 2 vet squads. Because vets are only bought in 10 man units.
What I'm saying is that you're taking the limit way too far. I don't buy for a second that a codex like deathwatch, which has a weapon for literally any situation, can't figure out a way to stop 5pt guardsmen in flak armor, even at 5 to 1 numbers.
A list like the grot swarm posted above or a platoon with conscripts I can see being a bit ridiculous, but not even allowing 20 models is just taking it too far.
Not going to argue the difference between 20 and 25 as I simply don't have the numbers to back it up.
What I do see the difference in is in any one turn the maximum an elite 5 man Kill Team like Deathwatch can do to a well spaced opponent is around 1 kill per shooting model per turn, with maybe a couple more if the Split Fire soldier gets lucky. So they are looking at inflicting around 5-7 casualties at the max per turn, out of that 20-25.
Whereas with concentrated fire, lucky dice and/or poor cover choices that same kill team could get tabled in the reversed shooting situation due to enough 6s getting rolled.
Yeah,
Can't bring more than 15 grots!?
But I'm forging a narrative!
Kill team is 40k with points and army selection limits.
Once you start enforcing additional caps your not playing kill team anymore, just some other house ruled 40k variant.
'Small points elites war'
And you should probably take it to another thread.
What I do see the difference in is in any one turn the maximum an elite 5 man Kill Team like Deathwatch can do to a well spaced opponent is around 1 kill per shooting model per turn,
What you choose in your army isnt mine (or anyone elses) problem. the game has a points limit and a selection criteria, if the army you select cannot defeat an opponent then change your army, dont force your opponent to change to suit you
MrMoustaffa wrote: Not gonna lie, pretty surprised how much stuff IG can bring at 200pts
Platoon command squad: Autocannons, Meltagun, Heavy flamer -60pts
Infantry squad: Autocannons, Melta gun -70pts
Infantry squad:Autocannon, melta gun -70pts
Automatically Appended Next Post: I really don't like a model cap under 25, it means for IG my only choices are vets, stormtroopers, ratlings, ogryn, rough riders, sentinels, and Chimeras. Because that list is a single troop slot for IG. It's the only way to bring regular guardsmen.
While you are getting that, unless I want to trade upgrades for a couple extra bodies, I get 5 Deathwatch Marines. So, excuse me if I'm not bothered by a limit to the max number of guys you can bring.
Well it does kind of severely limit the options of horde armies. Think about how orks, IG, nids, and or chaos players that like cultists feel.
Youre basically telling us we can't use our staple troop units. It'd be like me banning +3 armor saves.
It hardly limits with a cap of 15, that's still ten more guys, that each act as their own individual unit. You aren't gonna be able to kill some of them to force Morale, you're gonna have to kill pretty much each and everyone of them.
It just means Guard is stuck using only vets and stormtroopers essentially. Which annoys me because at that point we have to take a chimera or something because theres no way I could field an IG kill team under 15 models without a transport or sentinel, or maybe taking a stormtrooper team as my 5 extra. So now I'm stuck fighting your super death watch with slightly more men, but unlike your super boltguns and shot guns, I'm at best going to have carapace armored guys with lasguns. There's a reason guard needs more models, because our infantry need numbers to win. It's literally how our codex is supposed to function.
If your limit was say 25 models, or even 20, I'd be much more inclined to not fight it, but 15 is a bit extreme. That means I can't even take 2 vet squads. Because vets are only bought in 10 man units.
What I'm saying is that you're taking the limit way too far. I don't buy for a second that a codex like deathwatch, which has a weapon for literally any situation, can't figure out a way to stop 5pt guardsmen in flak armor, even at 5 to 1 numbers.
A list like the grot swarm posted above or a platoon with conscripts I can see being a bit ridiculous, but not even allowing 20 models is just taking it too far.
Grot Swarm is also bad, 20-25 Model really be pushing it for reasons the following quote mentions. Your 15 guardsmen could easily focus fire, 20 and 25 even more so. Being down to a 10 Man Vet Squad and some Storm Troopers also makes sense in the over all premise of the game of Killteams being sent after objectives. If you want to run a full Platoon, im probably gonna turn that down other wise I will lose everytime. Though Id probably try it once.
As my 5 guys with 'Super' Bolters could take out 5 guys a turn, unless one had split fire then maybe they could get 6 or 7 with a Heavy Bolter. That is at best, which would hit hard, but you'd likely be more spread out and in cover, so I use Kraken to remove the 4+ but then you still get the Cover or I use Dragonfire to remove the Cover and you still have the 4+
Vain wrote:
Not going to argue the difference between 20 and 25 as I simply don't have the numbers to back it up. What I do see the difference in is in any one turn the maximum an elite 5 man Kill Team like Deathwatch can do to a well spaced opponent is around 1 kill per shooting model per turn, with maybe a couple more if the Split Fire soldier gets lucky. So they are looking at inflicting around 5-7 casualties at the max per turn, out of that 20-25. Whereas with concentrated fire, lucky dice and/or poor cover choices that same kill team could get tabled in the reversed shooting situation due to enough 6s getting rolled.
MangoMadness wrote: What you choose in your army isnt mine (or anyone elses) problem. the game has a points limit and a selection criteria, if the army you select cannot defeat an opponent then change your army, dont force your opponent to change to suit you
It is feasible possible we might play against each other so happy to address this back to you.
I was responding back to the direct example of why Deathwatch Kill teams aren't all that and a bag of chips despite having weapons for every occasion, simply because you can still drown them in walls of flesh and rolls of 6s. Flexible damage output is great, but it comes at a significant cost that would still find it hard
figure out a way to stop 5pt guardsmen in flak armor, even at 5 to 1 numbers
when there are an utter buttload of them
Your contribution, while appreciated(and somewhat accurate in the "don't force your opponent to change to suit you"), is not really relevant in the context of the discussion.
What I do see the difference in is in any one turn the maximum an elite 5 man Kill Team like Deathwatch can do to a well spaced opponent is around 1 kill per shooting model per turn,
What you choose in your army isnt mine (or anyone elses) problem. the game has a points limit and a selection criteria, if the army you select cannot defeat an opponent then change your army, dont force your opponent to change to suit you
Are you serious? As if the Deathwatch has a million different ways to build a 200 point kill team. The disparity being discussed here is absolutely foundational to these Kill Team rules, and is the thing that makes them fundamentally unplayable. Having to take complete squads means small elite armies simply cannot reliably defeat someone spamming 40 grots. Old KT rules back in 4th edition didn't have this problem, because those rules were designed by slightly more competent designers, instead of the current breed of hacks.
More models is always better than fewer models in Kill Team because you can only kill as many models as you have men on the table. 30 guardsmen or 50 grots will win every game and it won't be fun for anyone. A Deathwatch Kill Team will very likely be tabled. That's one of the reasons I think the "split fire" rule needs to apply to everyone, or make it like Necromunda where you can shoot anyone within 4" of your original target with your additional shots. Either that or ban cheap troop choices completely.
Yeah but the game already has set parameters. You're introducing new ones, on top of the rules. As others have said, at that stage you're not playing Kill Team any more. You're playing a version that you have made up yourself.
The 40 Grot/Cultist/conscript thing is more about the time it takes to play.
Imagine moving and firing 40 individual units per turn. In a tournament environment.
A cap of 25 is better. However I appreciate Guard players or Grot players (though you can tank Grot tanks, and I think those would really shine in Kill Team) want to take a horde.
Caps aren't about eldar players (the perpetual villain of 40k) being bitter that Grots/Guard can compete, it's about wanting to complete a fairly small skirmish game before the actual 41st Millennium.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah but the game already has set parameters. You're introducing new ones, on top of the rules. As others have said, at that stage you're not playing Kill Team any more. You're playing a version that you have made up yourself.
I think I've said this when I posted it, but it's for a local tourney, why do people care so much about what happens at something they'll neither attend nor give a damn about to begin with?
If we are doing a Kill Team list building thread, shall we do a Kill Team painting thread as well?
I'm a Warseer refugee, so I mainly looked at that for the painting stuff. Is there a complex social hierarchy on Dakka that if I break it nerds will come and jump on my space barbies, or can I start a thread when I get home from work?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah but the game already has set parameters. You're introducing new ones, on top of the rules. As others have said, at that stage you're not playing Kill Team any more. You're playing a version that you have made up yourself.
I think I've said this when I posted it, but it's for a local tourney, why do people care so much about what happens at something they'll neither attend nor give a damn about to begin with?
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah but the game already has set parameters. You're introducing new ones, on top of the rules. As others have said, at that stage you're not playing Kill Team any more. You're playing a version that you have made up yourself.
I think I've said this when I posted it, but it's for a local tourney, why do people care so much about what happens at something they'll neither attend nor give a damn about to begin with?
Do you know how the Internet works?!
A new tagline then?
Dakka Dakka | This is how you're supposed to have fun, you're doing it wrong!
Just seems weird that when GW makes their first real attempt at having Kill Team as a proper ruleset in years your first action is to organise a tournament and change the rules right away.
Ben2 wrote: If we are doing a Kill Team list building thread, shall we do a Kill Team painting thread as well?
I'm a Warseer refugee, so I mainly looked at that for the painting stuff. Is there a complex social hierarchy on Dakka that if I break it nerds will come and jump on my space barbies, or can I start a thread when I get home from work?
Hoping to get started on my own Kill Team this weekend, so it'll be good to have a place to look for inspiration and motivation.
Think my Harlies and Deathwatch from Deathmasque will be doing double duty as my kill team project. May do a nifty Squat squad based on the inquisitor codex at some point though, or a proper Inquisitor warband with death cultists etc but using full on conversions.
Ben2 wrote: If we are doing a Kill Team list building thread, shall we do a Kill Team painting thread as well?
I'm a Warseer refugee, so I mainly looked at that for the painting stuff. Is there a complex social hierarchy on Dakka that if I break it nerds will come and jump on my space barbies, or can I start a thread when I get home from work?
I'll second BrookM's post with:
I've got most of my Death Company killteam painted, but will need to paint up a couple of more for purpose to get the squad all the way fleshed out.
I'll be sure to post up what I have once you get the thread started.
Are you serious? As if the Deathwatch has a million different ways to build a 200 point kill team. The disparity being discussed here is absolutely foundational to these Kill Team rules, and is the thing that makes them fundamentally unplayable.
So everyone else needs to have restrictions because poor old deathwatch just dont cut it at 200 points against some opponents?
We had a go at our first Kill Team game using the new rules yesterday.
Eddie brought some Tyranids, and Sarah brought some warriors from the Tau Empire. We kept our Kill Teams pretty straightforward for our first game, but we're both already keen to try out some different combinations next time.
One of the great things about Kill Team is that you see every unit in a new light. Units that may sit in the background of a bigger game can be surprisingly effective in a smaller skirmish match-up like this one.
Aexae wrote: Hey! Quick Question,
do they release Kill Team tommorow and could i pick it up in my local GW (germany)?
It does indeed release tomorrow, and I would be very surprised if you couldn't pick it up in any GW store.
It could be sold out. When Death Masque was released, I went to my local GW on Saturday about 2 hours after it had opened, and they were already sold out.
Also, the digital version of the rules will be for sale tomorrow too. If you're only interested in the rule, and don't mind a digital copy, that's a cheap option (less than 10€).
Are you serious? As if the Deathwatch has a million different ways to build a 200 point kill team. The disparity being discussed here is absolutely foundational to these Kill Team rules, and is the thing that makes them fundamentally unplayable.
So everyone else needs to have restrictions because poor old deathwatch just dont cut it at 200 points against some opponents?
yeah.......lol
Except thats hardly the only Codex which will have a problem vs a full Platoon. Anyone taking a small force will have a problem vs that. Or did you miss the comparison to 40 Cultists being a pain to deal with?
Aexae wrote: Hey! Quick Question,
do they release Kill Team tommorow and could i pick it up in my local GW (germany)?
It does indeed release tomorrow, and I would be very surprised if you couldn't pick it up in any GW store.
It could be sold out. When Death Masque was released, I went to my local GW on Saturday about 2 hours after it had opened, and they were already sold out.
Also, the digital version of the rules will be for sale tomorrow too. If you're only interested in the rule, and don't mind a digital copy, that's a cheap option (less than 10€).
Which is why you should always, always, always call ahead before just dropping in.
I would advise calling on Friday, asking if they have enough stock to be willing to hold something behind the counter for you to pick up on release day...or you could always preorder the New Hotness the week before.
I'm the first person, in this thread, to chime in about my experiences with horde tactics in Kill Team. I explored that option after my space marines force was shredded by Tau Pathfiders. While playing a single squad of Kill Team Space Marines is fluffy, it's simply not optimal given the rules. You are handicapping yourself, by limiting your offensive capabilities.
A tournament that limits model count, for time constraints, is definitely skewing what armies are viable in that setting, towards those that wear power armor.
Incidently, anyone thinking about participating in that tounament should invest in some Pathfinders with Rail Rifles, and perhaps a crisis suit with twin plasma.
I have faced so much dual plasma (at least they can't deepstrike for a change!) and pathfinders with either the rifles or the ion thingies in this setting, makes you wish for tables with 100% terrain coverage.
adamsouza wrote: A model count cap unfairly rewards elite armies.
I'm the first person, in this thread, to chime in about my experiences with horde tactics in Kill Team. I explored that option after my space marines force was shredded by Tau Pathfiders. While playing a single squad of Kill Team Space Marines is fluffy, it's simply not optimal given the rules. You are handicapping yourself, by limiting your offensive capabilities.
A tournament that limits model count, for time constraints, is definitely skewing what armies are viable in that setting, towards those that wear power armor.
Incidently, anyone thinking about participating in that tounament should invest in some Pathfinders with Rail Rifles, and perhaps a crisis suit with twin plasma.
I hardly see it as skewing it solely towards Power Armor forces. There are plenty of Small Elite units out there which can take out power armor with ease, either through weight of fire or having AP3 Weapons.
Those crappy Tempestus Scions that nobody seems to like come to mind..
It could be worse I suppose. Our first Kill Team campaign two or so years ago had a model cap of ten models per team as decreed by the organizer (read: not me), which certainly left certain armies in quite a pickle.
adamsouza wrote: A model count cap unfairly rewards elite armies.
I'm the first person, in this thread, to chime in about my experiences with horde tactics in Kill Team. I explored that option after my space marines force was shredded by Tau Pathfiders. While playing a single squad of Kill Team Space Marines is fluffy, it's simply not optimal given the rules. You are handicapping yourself, by limiting your offensive capabilities.
A tournament that limits model count, for time constraints, is definitely skewing what armies are viable in that setting, towards those that wear power armor.
Incidently, anyone thinking about participating in that tounament should invest in some Pathfinders with Rail Rifles, and perhaps a crisis suit with twin plasma.
I hardly see it as skewing it solely towards Power Armor forces. There are plenty of Small Elite units out there which can take out power armor with ease, either through weight of fire or having AP3 Weapons.
Not my point. You limit it to 15 models and you HAVE to take elite models with AP3 if you want to be competitive at all.
Adeptus Astartes, Adeptus Sororitas, Heretic Astartes, Necron Destroyers, Eldar Fire Dragons
What about Astra Militarum, Chaos Daemons, Orks ?
Yes, I'm sure those dozen orks in a trukk, without a painboy, will do fine... or those 10 imperial Guard....
At the risk of starting a flame war...but this was AWESOME.
Now get some more female figures for the Armies that have them...and get someone besides Matt Ward to write the SoBs fluff...
We had a go at our first Kill Team game using the new rules yesterday.
Eddie brought some Tyranids, and Sarah brought some warriors from the Tau Empire. We kept our Kill Teams pretty straightforward for our first game, but we're both already keen to try out some different combinations next time.
One of the great things about Kill Team is that you see every unit in a new light. Units that may sit in the background of a bigger game can be surprisingly effective in a smaller skirmish match-up like this one.
adamsouza wrote: A model count cap unfairly rewards elite armies.
I'm the first person, in this thread, to chime in about my experiences with horde tactics in Kill Team. I explored that option after my space marines force was shredded by Tau Pathfiders. While playing a single squad of Kill Team Space Marines is fluffy, it's simply not optimal given the rules. You are handicapping yourself, by limiting your offensive capabilities.
A tournament that limits model count, for time constraints, is definitely skewing what armies are viable in that setting, towards those that wear power armor.
Incidently, anyone thinking about participating in that tounament should invest in some Pathfinders with Rail Rifles, and perhaps a crisis suit with twin plasma.
I hardly see it as skewing it solely towards Power Armor forces. There are plenty of Small Elite units out there which can take out power armor with ease, either through weight of fire or having AP3 Weapons.
Not my point. You limit it to 15 models and you HAVE to take elite models with AP3 if you want to be competitive at all.
Adeptus Astartes, Adeptus Sororitas, Heretic Astartes, Necron Destroyers, Eldar Fire Dragons
What about Astra Militarum, Chaos Daemons, Orks ?
Yes, I'm sure those dozen orks in a trukk, without a painboy, will do fine... or those 10 imperial Guard....
The Militarum that has Scions in the book? Has Carapace Vets with Plasma Guns? Sniper Vets? Ratlings? Ogryn? Chimera Vet Squads?
And no, you dont NEED AP3, Eldar have Blade Storm, IG have weight of fire even in small numbers.
Granted Orks could have problems, but there are Heavy Armor Nobs, Bikers.
Honeslty you've got me on Daemons cause I dont know enough about their list.
tpryan01 wrote: At the risk of starting a flame war...but this was AWESOME.
Now get some more female figures for the Armies that have them...and get someone besides Matt Ward to write the SoBs fluff...
We had a go at our first Kill Team game using the new rules yesterday.
Eddie brought some Tyranids, and Sarah brought some warriors from the Tau Empire. We kept our Kill Teams pretty straightforward for our first game, but we're both already keen to try out some different combinations next time.
One of the great things about Kill Team is that you see every unit in a new light. Units that may sit in the background of a bigger game can be surprisingly effective in a smaller skirmish match-up like this one.
How are your Kill Teams coming along?
Spoiler:
Agreed, warhammer tv and their Facebook offerings were starting to look like a boys club. Good to see some female representation.
I'll have to dig out the cultist rules. Nothing is going to be perfect because I've got heavy flamers, heavy stubbers, shotguns, autopistols and plasma pistols all mixed in - but I'm sure my opponents won't care about a little bit of fudging.
Leggy wrote:15 is a bit tight. 25 seems fairer. A model cap is good for tournament play though. I went to a GW killteam tourniquet a few years back. Some guy brought 40 cultists. No-one could make a dentist in his force. He swamped everyone.
Not fun when you've brought 10 guys along.
So finally a week army can actually play and be competitive, but take it out of them because other people play with a smaller number? That is not fair and that is just telling people "play my way" instead of how the actual rules go. I am all up for house rules but this is one that is just not fair because people don't want to adapt to that tactic.
Yeah
I love how grots have spacemarines shaking in their boots!
Before the rules even land!
Glad this is just a house rule... Hope it doesn't gain traction .
But limiting squad size will limit the awesomeness that could be had in odd match ups;
Spacemarines sent to kill a grot rebel uprising.
Classic Guard vs Ork foot sloggers!
The Militarum that has Scions in the book? Has Carapace Vets with Plasma Guns? Sniper Vets? Ratlings? Ogryn? Chimera Vet Squads?.
Since when have Ogryns been a sane pick for... anything? They've always been a horrendous unit, and I doubt the current codex has much improved them.
Hey! I love my Ogryn, they might not work great against strong stuff, but they bully weak things really well, stick them up against guard squads and they go through them like a hot knife through butter. One after the other. Squish Squish Squish. Stick a priest with them for added hilarity.
The new White Dwarf has a blurb (on page 120) about an Eldar Kill Team with a Guardian squad, a Warlock leader and a War Walker. I don't have the Eldar Codex, but according to Battlescribe, the War Walker is a Heavy Support choice.
Witchfinder General wrote: The new White Dwarf has a blurb (on page 120) about an Eldar Kill Team with a Guardian squad, a Warlock leader and a War Walker. I don't have the Eldar Codex, but according to Battlescribe, the War Walker is a Heavy Support choice.
Forgeworld? There is a jump war walkers that's fa I think.
The Militarum that has Scions in the book? Has Carapace Vets with Plasma Guns? Sniper Vets? Ratlings? Ogryn? Chimera Vet Squads?.
Since when have Ogryns been a sane pick for... anything? They've always been a horrendous unit, and I doubt the current codex has much improved them.
Bullgryns aren't necessarily bad on a 4x4 table with lots of scenery with a lack of str 10 opponents and lack of monstrous creatures/gargantuan creatures or superheavies and lack of super formations. However fear wulven or anyone with str 10 melee. 3 bullgryn upgraded with brute shield and power mauls, a priest are 4+ armour 5+ invul (4+ invul w reroll priest) both are rerollable with priest, majority 5 toughness, fearless me stubborn and with 13xr 7 ap4 atks and a priest str6 ap2 smash atk that reroll to hit (zealot)and 3x str5 ap- with reroll to wound hammers wraith for 215pts. Ok your right it's not that great and you are better off with Militarum tempestus but it's ok in kill team.
The Militarum that has Scions in the book? Has Carapace Vets with Plasma Guns? Sniper Vets? Ratlings? Ogryn? Chimera Vet Squads?.
Since when have Ogryns been a sane pick for... anything? They've always been a horrendous unit, and I doubt the current codex has much improved them.
Bullgryns aren't necessarily bad on a 4x4 table with lots of scenery with a lack of str 10 opponents and lack of monstrous creatures/gargantuan creatures or superheavies and lack of super formations. However fear wulven or anyone with str 10 melee. 3 bullgryn upgraded with brute shield and power mauls, a priest are 4+ armour 5+ invul (4+ invul w reroll priest) both are rerollable with priest, majority 5 toughness, fearless me stubborn and with 13xr 7 ap4 atks and a priest str6 ap2 smash atk that reroll to hit (zealot)and 3x str5 ap- with reroll to wound hammers wraith for 215pts. Ok your right it's not that great and you are better off with Militarum tempestus but it's ok in kill team.
Are you suggesting that bullgryn would get buffed by the priest? Because in Kill Team every model is their own unit so he can't transfer his buffs.
tpryan01 wrote: don't Buff become Bubbles? (or is that in HoR Only?)
Nope. As far as I know, there are no rules in Kill Team that alter unit buffing rules from models. I don't think you can even take a priest in Kill Team since they technically come from the HQ slot, even if they don't take up one.
Another example would be my Blood Angels Command Squad. The Sanguiniary Novitiate (medic) is locked into the squad. The model is also locked into his wargear, but has a Narthecium (He is a character too). His feel no pain normally is restricted to the squad, however in Killteam it only effects him sadly. Until I figured that out, I had planned on running the command squad as my Killteam. Now I'm working on a Death Company killteam.
In addition, the priest won't be allowed either, as it comes from the HQ slot, much like the Primaris Psyker. Wish certain HQ's were allowed, but them's the breaks.
So everyone knows the updated download is available now.
There are a few renamed skills(Fleshbane becomes "Killer Instinct" instead, for example) and I'm still looking everything over...but it's interesting from what I can see.
Reading it before finally racking out tonight, will answer questions tomorrow if nobody else has picked up the hurdle.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS:
There's a picture of a Genestealer Cult Kill Team fighting Ultramarines in there.
The digital edition(at least the iPad version) also includes the stuff from the Kill Team box as well so rules/layouts for "Strike Team Bright Conquest"(Tau) and Squad Stornus(Raven Guard).
Deathwatch are going to be mean as hell under this system, provided someone takes a Frag Cannon or Infernus Heavy Bolter and gives the wielder the "Reaping Volley" perk(attacks with a ranged weapon firing more than one shot may target different enemy models with each shot. Announce the intended target for each shot before making any To Hit rolls).
Eagle Eye is going to be nasty for a Tau force; increases the range of any ranged weapons fired by this model by half of their range(i.e. a Boltgun becomes 36" instead of 24"). It also does affect your Rapid Fire and Melta distances.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red__Thirst wrote: Might anyone have a link for the download? (At work here still)
Just checking.
Take it easy.
-Red__Thirst-
You would need to go into your device(assuming you're on an Apple product), delete the old file and then redownload it. It automatically downloads the new file.
Split Fire under the old rules(I checked them this morning to see if it was a new download yet) was just that you could shoot at two different targets. They literally just used the standard rules for Split Fire, it was the same glossary entry and everything.
Eagle Eye is neat though!
Sharpshooter is pretty awesome too...Cover saves cannot be taken against shots made by a model firing their ranged weapon.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrookM wrote: In addition to those questions, are invulnerable saves limited to 5++ now?
I didn't see anything about it but I'm not at my peak right now. I did a search through the download and saw nothing.
Do leaders gain advancements again?
Again, not seeing anything but there are some suggestions for Campaign Play. Notably that rather than rolling, it's okay to pick a trait that best suits your Team Leader's personality.
And what do the optional rules for fighting against hordes or vehicles look like?
Pretty interesting actually.
There's one called "Powering Up..." which is a Kill Team with all models having the Tank Hunter special rule and the opponent consists of a single Super-Heavy Vehicle or Walker. It cannot fire or move any of its Primary Weapons until it is powered up. You use Variable Game Length not to determine the end of the game, but to determine when the SHV becomes fully operational after which the game becomes "a battle to the death!".
I'm kind of fond of some of the concepts in "Prey Stalker". They talk about:
A squad of Space Marines tries to destroy a Necron Lord before it can awaken its Tomb World...a band of Skitarii Rangers stalk a Chaos Predator through the burning husks of a great tank battle...a shrine of Striking Scorpions hunt a Carnifex through the forests of a maiden world, determined to slay the beast...
It's a Kill Team with double the number of Specialists versus a single MC, HQ unit, or vehicle that wouldn't normally fit into a Kill Team game.
The Kill Team gets 6 turns to kill it and it suggests to make the scenery on the board extra dense.
"Against the Horde" is the horde mode. The opponent's force consists of 2x Troops choice units with no points value limit, and they do not use the Kill Team mission rules and if they are destroyed they return to the battlefield from the controlling player's table edge at the start of their following turn.
Kanluwen wrote: "Against the Horde" is the horde mode. The opponent's force consists of 2x Troops choice units with no points value limit, and they do not use the Kill Team mission rules and if they are destroyed they return to the battlefield from the controlling player's table edge at the start of their following turn.
Yes! Here we go, for people who want to spam stuff in this setting, there's your chance!
Also, the "Powering Up" scenario does sound neat. Just need to make sure that the Tau player doesn't spam fusion blasters when we do that one, otherwise it'll be over at turn one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for the FOC shown, it's the same as before, with no changes or additions.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What is the win condition for the Kill Team in horde mode by the way? Is it merely holding out until the end?
If so.. time to start digging around for those Orks I got lying around, I should have enough to make two max-model mobs with nobs and special weapons for a "Take on the hordes and survive for as long as you can!" thing at the store.
Oh man Kan, you have me hopeful we'll get a WD Genestealer Cult KT list or maybe even a proper codex. Nice Catch!
The new special missions sound pretty neat, specifically the one about destroying a Super Heavy. It would be pretty cool to have a unit of Ork Kommandos sabotaging a Baneblade or something.
I think I'll try to get together with my buddies soon and go over the book and put some house rules together. I'm thinking of purposing a unit cap of 25 (so games don't take forever), letting Inquisition take a Troop choice from the Scion or Sisters book (I was thinking GW was going to make 2 Elite choices in FOC this time around), and definitely something to help out Nids with their synapse problems.
Leggy wrote:15 is a bit tight. 25 seems fairer. A model cap is good for tournament play though. I went to a GW killteam tourniquet a few years back. Some guy brought 40 cultists. No-one could make a dentist in his force. He swamped everyone.
Not fun when you've brought 10 guys along.
So finally a week army can actually play and be competitive, but take it out of them because other people play with a smaller number? That is not fair and that is just telling people "play my way" instead of how the actual rules go. I am all up for house rules but this is one that is just not fair because people don't want to adapt to that tactic.
I was also playing Chaos. I took cultists and chaos spawn. Don't try and give me the "Awww but this army is weak" argument. Chaos has lots of good combos in Killteam.
I think kill teams has the potential to be way more balanced, as it's harder to hide the scary models (i.e. SM with grav cannon) in a squad, and the normally weak horde armies, suddenly are super MSU countering the more elite armies if they remain spread out enough.
The Militarum that has Scions in the book? Has Carapace Vets with Plasma Guns? Sniper Vets? Ratlings? Ogryn? Chimera Vet Squads?.
Since when have Ogryns been a sane pick for... anything? They've always been a horrendous unit, and I doubt the current codex has much improved them.
Hey! I love my Ogryn, they might not work great against strong stuff, but they bully weak things really well, stick them up against guard squads and they go through them like a hot knife through butter. One after the other. Squish Squish Squish. Stick a priest with them for added hilarity.
Don't get me wrong, I love mine too. All 15 of them. I even converted a giant flatbed superheavy tank for them to ride into battle with. I've used them since 4th edition, and they've never been stellar. :-/
Is it just me, or is a Legion of the Damned kill team with Supressing Fire specialist and the Animus Malorum is just too sick to contemplate?
Supressing fire: Every model hit is forced to take a pinning test
Animus Malorum (among other things) - every failed pinning test within 12" causes an unsaveable wound on a random model in the unit.
Every man for himself: Each model is treated as its own unit
So every model hit by the specialist's weapon forces a pinning test, and every failed pinning test forces an unsaved wound on a "random" model in the unit of one,
Charax wrote: Is it just me, or is a Legion of the Damned kill team with Supressing Fire specialist and the Animus Malorum is just too sick to contemplate?
Supressing fire: Every model hit is forced to take a pinning test
Animus Malorum (among other things) - every failed pinning test within 12" causes an unsaveable wound on a random model in the unit.
Every man for himself: Each model is treated as its own unit
So every model hit by the specialist's weapon forces a pinning test, and every failed pinning test forces an unsaved wound on a "random" model in the unit of one,
Charax wrote: Is it just me, or is a Legion of the Damned kill team with Supressing Fire specialist and the Animus Malorum is just too sick to contemplate?
Supressing fire: Every model hit is forced to take a pinning test
Animus Malorum (among other things) - every failed pinning test within 12" causes an unsaveable wound on a random model in the unit.
Every man for himself: Each model is treated as its own unit
So every model hit by the specialist's weapon forces a pinning test, and every failed pinning test forces an unsaved wound on a "random" model in the unit of one,
clever!
Not as clever as you might think, seeing as how you can only shoot a single target unless rocking a template weapon and having a very generous foe keeping things bunched up. Sure, you can force pinning tests and failed pinning tests force unsaved wounds...but so what?
You're better off doing something like this:
10 man Space Marine Scouts (Raven Guard Chapter); all with Camo Cloaks
Heavy Bolter Weapon Specialist: Reaping Volley
Sniper Rifle Dirty Fighter Specialist: Executioner(reroll all failed To Wound rolls against targets with a Wounds characteristic of 2 or more)
Sergeant with twin Lightning Claws(this is something I've been wanting to convert up for awhile and man, it's finally time to do so!). If you get the Specialist skill bit, give him Deathblow or the Fleshbane equivalent and have some fun with it. Nobody expects a TLC Scout Sergeant! NOBODY!
Sniper Rifle Guerilla Specialist: Infiltrate, Scout, or Stealth(dealer's choice or hold this for a Vanguard Veteran for some real mean fun)
Sniper Rifle x6
You know, there aren't many ways to put together a Necron force within those guidelines that I have found, but if my experience in low-point games has shown anything, it's that our durability will be tough to overcome. The largest force I've been able to put together so far was only 13 models, though.
Apologies if this is slightly off topic but can anyone recommend a reader for the rules? On my Samsung S5 Neo the pages are broken which makes reading a nightmare. But back on topic, can't wait to field my Skitarii in this!
BrookM wrote: Those crappy Tempestus Scions that nobody seems to like come to mind..
It could be worse I suppose. Our first Kill Team campaign two or so years ago had a model cap of ten models per team as decreed by the organizer (read: not me), which certainly left certain armies in quite a pickle.
They seem to be made for Kill team. Sure they're T3 4+, but there's Deep Strike and MTC.
Being able to cram so many special weapons means you can easily get 3 Plasma Guns and one of those Salvo Hell guns for a Relentless guy. Then the other 6 are Cannon fodder!
BrookM wrote: Those crappy Tempestus Scions that nobody seems to like come to mind..
It could be worse I suppose. Our first Kill Team campaign two or so years ago had a model cap of ten models per team as decreed by the organizer (read: not me), which certainly left certain armies in quite a pickle.
They seem to be made for Kill team. Sure they're T3 4+, but there's Deep Strike and MTC.
Being able to cram so many special weapons means you can easily get 3 Plasma Guns and one of those Salvo Hell guns for a Relentless guy. Then the other 6 are Cannon fodder!
Deep strike is something they lose in Kill Team.
Also, Scion squads can only have two special weapons, their command squads can have four though.
EnTyme wrote: You know, there aren't many ways to put together a Necron force within those guidelines that I have found, but if my experience in low-point games has shown anything, it's that our durability will be tough to overcome. The largest force I've been able to put together so far was only 13 models, though.
Warp Rider wrote: Apologies if this is slightly off topic but can anyone recommend a reader for the rules? On my Samsung S5 Neo the pages are broken which makes reading a nightmare. But back on topic, can't wait to field my Skitarii in this!
Warp Rider wrote: Apologies if this is slightly off topic but can anyone recommend a reader for the rules? On my Samsung S5 Neo the pages are broken which makes reading a nightmare. But back on topic, can't wait to field my Skitarii in this!
kobo eReader
I've been trying to use that every since the General's Handbook came out and it crashes every time I turn a page. Hasn't ever worked, even once for me. :-(
EnTyme wrote: You know, there aren't many ways to put together a Necron force within those guidelines that I have found, but if my experience in low-point games has shown anything, it's that our durability will be tough to overcome. The largest force I've been able to put together so far was only 13 models, though.
Though, on the topic of Necrons, I would ask those with the book to see if there's been any clarification on whether Quantum Shielding contributes to the "total AV no bigger than 33" thing or not.
(because if it does, Necrons get zero vehicles).
Charax wrote: I use Azardi reader for epub3 files, it renders them perfectly, and BL recommend it. not found a mobile one yet
Thank you SO much. I know I am an old fart, but I actually like being able to have access to my ebooks on my desktop, and giant monitor, and every other ereader gaks the bed with GW digital release. The formating either goes to hell, or they are tiny and unreadable with no working zoom function.
Azardi worked like a charm, and I am sincerely, and immensely grateful!
JohnnyHell wrote:Kill Team has the promise to be a cool way to sell people small forces where they like a few models but don't want a massive 1850 point force.
Might tempt me to pick up a small Eldar contingent. It's got me painting up my GS Cult and Deathwatch already, that's for sure.
Hooooo boy, I can run 16 Neophytes and 12 Acolytes for 195 points. Well now! :-)
Too bad you can't play your army, some people are already complaining to many minis so max of 15. This just sucked out all the excitement I was about to have with Kill Team.
Its ok Davor... you made it a whole two days before complaining about a game you haven't played yet, this time! Its like progress. :-p
Remember mate, in all seriousness... that is a house-rule people here are citing, but if you play the rules as-is, those hordes are welcome to run wild and be super powerful.
I wouldn't have a problem playing against that many. I'm going to pick up a Breacher squad for KillTeam for sure. This is the environment where they will shine.
I'm getting the impression I should be fearing for my life soon, with the investment some people show in something that shouldn't interfere with their enjoyment of this all to begin with.
As for Breachers.. I'm thinking of using the squad from the Kill Team boxed set and build them as such, or maybe 50-50, so half with rifles and half with whatever those not-shotguns are called.
edit.
Removed the comment before more people get upset about it or something.
Combat specialist
- Rampage (i think, additional D3 atks if in combat w/ more than one model)
- Counterattack
- Instant Death
- Furious Charge
- HoW - Hatred
- Fleshbane (in melee)
- Rage
- +1WS
Weapon specialist
- Ordnance (kinda, you can reroll to pen)
- +50% range (affects melta and rapid fire)
- +1BS
- Haywire (in melee)
- Master crafted (on a ranged weapon)
- Split fire (per shot)
- Ignores cover
- Sniper
- Pinning
Dirty fighter specialist
- Blind (in melee)
- Rending (in melee)
- Shred VS targets with more than 1 wound on profile
- Fear
- Concussive (in melee)
- Shred (in melee)
- Poison (in melee)
- Soulblaze
Indomitable specialist
- Ad will
- Crusader
- E warrior
- Fearless
- FNP - Relentless
- Strikedown
- Stubborn
Some seem a little obsolete when you can't pick more than one from the same school (Fearless and Stubborn in particular), others are extremely niche. But some very potent ones in there!
JohnnyHell wrote:Kill Team has the promise to be a cool way to sell people small forces where they like a few models but don't want a massive 1850 point force.
Might tempt me to pick up a small Eldar contingent. It's got me painting up my GS Cult and Deathwatch already, that's for sure.
Hooooo boy, I can run 16 Neophytes and 12 Acolytes for 195 points. Well now! :-)
Too bad you can't play your army, some people are already complaining to many minis so max of 15. This just sucked out all the excitement I was about to have with Kill Team.
good thing you you don't have to follow other people's house rules...
Went to the store and picked up my pre-order. I'll write a detailed review for my blog soon, but I saw the end of a game of Genestealer Cult vs Deathwatch (Acolytes plus Neophytes vs 5 tooled up Kill team). It was your standard GW almost a bowling green table, but Genestealer Cult handily won. Having models with Fearless to keep you in the game after being broken is very handy.
Genestealer Cult can field 26 Fearless models (24 Acolytes, 2 Purestrains) in Kill Team. All those beautiful rending attacks, with a couple of infiltrating purestrains to cause people issues.
It's a nice set. However it is very marine biased in the basic set (200 points Marines vs 134 points Tau) so it keeps up that tradition for starter sets at least.
Man, none of these epub readers are able to display it properly for me on Android (closest one was GitHub, but there was no spacing between words so it was just solid walls of text. Very hard to read)
skoffs wrote: Man, none of these epub readers are able to display it properly for me on Android (closest one was GitHub, but there was no spacing between words so it was just solid walls of text. Very hard to read)
skoffs wrote: Man, none of these epub readers are able to display it properly for me on Android (closest one was Gitden, but there was no spacing between words so it was just solid walls of text. Very hard to read)
Have you tried Kobo? Works a treat for me.
Hadn't tried it yet... That one requires a login, right?
[edit]
Installed Koba, created Rakuten account... app refuses to let me in
("username/password is not invalid")
Ben2 wrote: Went to the store and picked up my pre-order. I'll write a detailed review for my blog soon, but I saw the end of a game of Genestealer Cult vs Deathwatch (Acolytes plus Neophytes vs 5 tooled up Kill team). It was your standard GW almost a bowling green table, but Genestealer Cult handily won. Having models with Fearless to keep you in the game after being broken is very handy.
Genestealer Cult can field 26 Fearless models (24 Acolytes, 2 Purestrains) in Kill Team. All those beautiful rending attacks, with a couple of infiltrating purestrains to cause people issues.
It's a nice set. However it is very marine biased in the basic set (200 points Marines vs 134 points Tau) so it keeps up that tradition for starter sets at least.
And that's why our Tau are getting a Devilfish to even the odds.
BrookM wrote: I'm getting the impression I should be fearing for my life soon, with the investment some people show in something that shouldn't interfere with their enjoyment of this all to begin with.
As for Breachers.. I'm thinking of using the squad from the Kill Team boxed set and build them as such, or maybe 50-50, so half with rifles and half with whatever those not-shotguns are called.
edit.
Removed the comment before more people get upset about it or something.
I've only grabbed the rules as I have no interest in marines outside the DW unless its blood ravens.
So far it looks promising (yeah I caved and purchased my first GW product in.. 10, 15 years?). Seems like I should be able to do my "All the autocannons" AM list which I can handily make from the Getting Started box and an Armoured Sentinel.
Edit: Of course I have no idea if autocannons are still the half way house between a Lascannon and a Heavy Bolter..
Nothing wrong with the autocannon, it's still an excellent weapon, especially in this format, where it can handily take out most types of infantry and with a bit of luck, most of the vehicles arrayed against you.
JohnnyHell wrote:Kill Team has the promise to be a cool way to sell people small forces where they like a few models but don't want a massive 1850 point force.
Might tempt me to pick up a small Eldar contingent. It's got me painting up my GS Cult and Deathwatch already, that's for sure.
Hooooo boy, I can run 16 Neophytes and 12 Acolytes for 195 points. Well now! :-)
Too bad you can't play your army, some people are already complaining to many minis so max of 15. This just sucked out all the excitement I was about to have with Kill Team.
Just so we're specifically clear:
Most of the "max of 15 minis" comments are also tied to in-store ran campaigns. Managers will find the 'sweet spot' so to speak of where to have the sizes at for their boards, players, etc.
There is no limitation beyond 200 points, 0-2 Troops, 0-1 Elites, and/or 0-1 Fast Attack.
Additionally there are ideas given for doing "Kill Team Challenge" modes, where one player basically gets to have more points and other bits than a standard Kill Team.
It's too late Kan, I've already ruined the game for this poor cupcake and no doubt a few others as well. It would appear that my words carry with them a lot of power.. such a great responsibility!
Robin5t wrote: It's a real shame there's no exception for Inquisitors in force organisation. I would have loved to play an Inquisitor + Retinue kill team.
If your opponent is agreeable enough and you don't go overboard on say, the Terminator armour and orbital strikes, a compromise can be reached that doesn't stray too far from the core rules.
My own brother wants to play using Kans, which are normally a heavy support choice, but I think we can come to an agreement of some sort.
Again, the Heralds of Ruin expanded Kill Team rules allows you to play with Terminators, Meganobs, Killa Kans and many other things (with adjusted points values of course). You don't need full squads either for most entries, although there are "horde" units like Ork Boys, Guardsmen, and 'gaunts.
There are also lists for the Inquisition, Rogue Traders, Squats, Grot Rebels and plenty of other non-standard factions.
Just as an alternative to the GW rules if you're into that kind of thing.
And the Kill Team Rules specifically state that it is fine to change their rules, as long as it is not used to give an unfair advantage. The intent of the game is giving nice games with uncertainty, not making the invincible Kill Team.
It is written as such in the rules.
So, if you want to include some Terminators, Support units or even a Monstruous Creature with 4 PV, go for it. You just need to talk about it with your fellow players and the organizer of the campaign.
Hell, even in the White Dwarf we have an Eldar Kill Team with a War Walker - shouldn't be possible since it's Heavy Support choice, but who cares? About time people understand competition isn't everything in GW games.
Clearly written by someone who has ever played Necrons....
Forgot that the power weapon entry is for more than swords.
