Mazzyx wrote: If the zerkers didn't kill it after the second set of 20+ attacks you need new dice.
What it is great for is lords, warp talons, and termis.
Your not thinking of all the applications, they can wipe a unit out then you activate them again and they get another 3" of movement to get within an inch of an enemy bash there brains in and still get a post combat phase 3" yet again. Basically just that threat makes berserkers something the opponent HAS to deal with early which is something I have not heard of since the 3.5 days
You can't attack something you didnt charge. The berserkers can consolidate into them, but then the enemy will activate and whack em before leaving in the next turn.
Also, I'm pretty certain you can't activate a unit that isnt "in combat" within 1" of an enemy model. If the berserkers kill everything in their first activation, they don't get any further activations because they're no longer in combat.
MinscS2 wrote: Would you spend 2 CP's on giving 2-3 berzerkers a third go in combat? I know I wouldn't most of the time.
Likewise, I doubt I'd spend 2 CP's on giving 9-10 berzerkers a third go either. There are exceptions of course, but alot of things don't really survive 2 waves of attacks from berzerkers in the first place, or become so crippled that it's not worth the 2 CP to finish them of before morale does.
Now, spending 2 CP's on getting my WE Terminators or Warptalons or Possessed strike a second time...that thought warms the heart.
Three pile ins with a possible consolidation into combat makes 9-12 inches of extra movement. You can send one big unit in and tie up most of their army.
Sure you "can", but it's not really that realistic is it?
Hugh? Whats unrealistic about it, I have had berserkers double pile in and condolidate a few times already to tie units up, and even overkill once. I never claimed it was a guarantee, that's not how die games works lol. Attributing realism here is rather daft.
You said "big unit" that can tie up most of the enemy army.
"Big unit" means bigger than 10, so no Rhino.
No Rhino = footslog.
If your opponent let's you footslog over the table with a big berzerker-unit, big enough to let you pretty much consolidate into the majority of their army, your opponent deserves to lose.
Then add the fact that your opponent will get to attack you every time you consolidate into something. Those Berzerkers will get thinned out by their own succes.
Either way, most players aren't dumb enough (possibly unlucky enough though) to let a massive berzeker unit footslog across the board unharmed.
So - it's a possible but unrealistic scenario.
Also, no reason to be snide.
BrotherGecko wrote: These are shaping up to be pretty damn dull. They are looking fairly similar in a lot of ways to the space marine book but witbout all the other units.
You're right, it's too bad Normal marines do not have Havoc Launchers, Warp Talons, Mutilators, Obliterators, heldrakes, helbrutes, Lord of skulls, cheap fodder infantry, zombies, Beserkers, Daemonic Steeds, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, and an entire line of forgeworld units unique to Chaos Space Marines. /s
Do you guys actually want anything new or do you just like to complain to complain?
Oh look! Somebody ran out to protect GW by pointing out a different point. I wasn't aware Chaos has the same number of datasheets as space marines. Good thing you pointed out the chaos specific stuff for me.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: l
I wonder why they put the tzeentch power in there - in Traitor Legions Iron Warriors wouldn't have been able to be marked - so will players be able to mark them now?
There is precedence in the fluff about IW having the mark of Khorne and being 'Berserkers' so I don't see why others can't have other marks.
Mazzyx wrote: If the zerkers didn't kill it after the second set of 20+ attacks you need new dice.
What it is great for is lords, warp talons, and termis.
Your not thinking of all the applications, they can wipe a unit out then you activate them again and they get another 3" of movement to get within an inch of an enemy bash there brains in and still get a post combat phase 3" yet again. Basically just that threat makes berserkers something the opponent HAS to deal with early which is something I have not heard of since the 3.5 days
You can't attack something you didnt charge. The berserkers can consolidate into them, but then the enemy will activate and whack em before leaving in the next turn.
Also, I'm pretty certain you can't activate a unit that isnt "in combat" within 1" of an enemy model. If the berserkers kill everything in their first activation, they don't get any further activations because they're no longer in combat.
But your allow to declare any target within 12 inches for your assault even if you can't get their due to blocking models. So you eat more over watch, but you can easily get to more units once you butcher that screen.
MinscS2 wrote: Would you spend 2 CP's on giving 2-3 berzerkers a third go in combat? I know I wouldn't most of the time.
Likewise, I doubt I'd spend 2 CP's on giving 9-10 berzerkers a third go either. There are exceptions of course, but alot of things don't really survive 2 waves of attacks from berzerkers in the first place, or become so crippled that it's not worth the 2 CP to finish them of before morale does.
Now, spending 2 CP's on getting my WE Terminators or Warptalons or Possessed strike a second time...that thought warms the heart.
Three pile ins with a possible consolidation into combat makes 9-12 inches of extra movement. You can send one big unit in and tie up most of their army.
Sure you "can", but it's not really that realistic is it?
Hugh? Whats unrealistic about it, I have had berserkers double pile in and condolidate a few times already to tie units up, and even overkill once. I never claimed it was a guarantee, that's not how die games works lol. Attributing realism here is rather daft.
You said "big unit" that can tie up most of the enemy army.
"Big unit" means bigger than 10, so no Rhino.
No Rhino = footslog.
If your opponent let's you footslog over the table with a big berzerker-unit, big enough to let you pretty much consolidate into the majority of their army, your opponent deserves to lose.
Then add the fact that your opponent will get to attack you every time you consolidate into something. Those Berzerkers will get thinned out by their own succes.
Either way, most players aren't dumb enough (possibly unlucky enough though) to let a massive berzeker unit footslog across the board unharmed.
So - it's a possible but unrealistic scenario.
Also, no reason to be snide.
First of all, big unit doesn't mean bigger then 10 lol. Unless there is a section in the rules where they define unit sizes your talking from your ass. Second of all, you can just as easily run 2 10 man units side by side as you can run one 20 man unit, so your point is just goofy anyway. They would have no idea which lot was getting the potential stategem, which is the whole point, hence they have to deal with all of them at once. You could also bluff them an not burn the CP's in the end and just use them as a tar pit.
As to your point about them not making it... that's literally part of my entire previous post. Making them this potentially threatening means they MUST shoot them off the table, which means that unit of warp time terminators that just moved into your flank turn 1 starts really compounding the pressure. Your speaking like someone who hasn't actually played much of 8th yet if I am being honest here.
PS I am not being snide lol I just find it funny when people tell me exactly how things will play out when I can tell they have never run into the scenario yet.
Mazzyx wrote: Again for all freaking out about stuff not in the codex. From GW on the codex verse index stuff:
There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?
While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.
Everything that is in the index you can use, just use the new codex points.
So if you're a returning player who just had your collection of expensive books invalidated by the new edition a little over a month ago, you need to fork out for/carry/use not one but two new books to use your existing years legal figures for one army only a month into the new edition. That's a gakky solution for all involved except GW. If they wanted to go that route, they should have made the index books free to download with the release of the new edition (but still offered prints copies for sale) instead of double dipping for figs comprised of 100% GW parts.
BrotherGecko wrote: These are shaping up to be pretty damn dull. They are looking fairly similar in a lot of ways to the space marine book but witbout all the other units.
You're right, it's too bad Normal marines do not have Havoc Launchers, Warp Talons, Mutilators, Obliterators, heldrakes, helbrutes, Lord of skulls, cheap fodder infantry, zombies, Beserkers, Daemonic Steeds, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, and an entire line of forgeworld units unique to Chaos Space Marines. /s
Do you guys actually want anything new or do you just like to complain to complain?
V Vets do most of what Talons can; Centurions are clearly their Obliterator/Mutilator equivalent and IMHO better now that oblit weapons aren't cool and now they have Aggressors; helbrutes are just renamed dreads; zombies are cheap fodder infantry so that's redundant; FF/MFs are 2 configurations of the same thing; FW unique CSM options consists of 2(?) characters; 3 robots; 3 flyers; and barely modified Marine entries
How about a revised list of:
Havoc Launchers, heldrakes, Lord of skulls, cheap fodder infantry, Beserkers, Daemonic Steeds, x-fiends, and an entire line of under a dozen actually different things.
Havoc launchers seem a bad thing to have in that list, especially with the new onslaught gun poking out of various things and twin assault cannons on razorbacks. d6Ap 0 shots is just sad.
Though on the helbrute front- they are better (and faster) CC dreads.
Mazzyx wrote: Again for all freaking out about stuff not in the codex. From GW on the codex verse index stuff:
There are a few options that are missing in the codex that appear in the index: why is that? Does that mean I can’t use these models in my army anymore?
While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army.
Everything that is in the index you can use, just use the new codex points.
Just haul around an extra book. Just spend twice as long looking things up. Just use a source that likely won't be permitted at tournaments or "official" events once your faction has a codex.
"Just".
If they seriously intended for this stuff to remain an option, they would have put it in the codex, and if people want to be annoyed at having additional inconvenience imposed on them as part of GW's wierd range-management policies, you don't get to tell them otherwise.
Red Corsair wrote: But your allow to declare any target within 12 inches for your assault even if you can't get their due to blocking models. So you eat more over watch, but you can easily get to more units once you butcher that screen.
The real potential seems to be for either berzerking everything in a general area or turning any random unit on the battlefield into a minimum four attack threat per model when ever you want. When you can pop a tactical squad out of a rhino, shoot 20 rapid fire bolter shots, then charge for 40 attacks across two rounds of first priority combat, they're a threat to a whole lot, and those aren't your combat specialists.
Mazzyx wrote: If the zerkers didn't kill it after the second set of 20+ attacks you need new dice.
What it is great for is lords, warp talons, and termis.
Your not thinking of all the applications, they can wipe a unit out then you activate them again and they get another 3" of movement to get within an inch of an enemy bash there brains in and still get a post combat phase 3" yet again. Basically just that threat makes berserkers something the opponent HAS to deal with early which is something I have not heard of since the 3.5 days
You can't attack something you didnt charge. The berserkers can consolidate into them, but then the enemy will activate and whack em before leaving in the next turn.
Also, I'm pretty certain you can't activate a unit that isnt "in combat" within 1" of an enemy model. If the berserkers kill everything in their first activation, they don't get any further activations because they're no longer in combat.
You would have to declare a charge against everything you potentially want to fight (and they would all need to be within 12 inches to declare a charge) Also, the fight sequence says you can activate any unit that charged or is within 1 inch of an enemy unit, so I think this will let you continue to activate the berserkers. Though even if you can't fight a unit because you didn't 'charge' them you may still want to consolidate into them so they can't shoot.
Courtesy from DreamIsCollapsing @ B&C who deciphered the french leak.
World Eater Stratagem:
Cancel a psychic power within 24" on a 4+
Emperor's Children Stratagem:
Activates in the combat phase. Each time a model of this squads kills an enemy model, he can immediately make another attack with the same weapon on the same enemy unit.
Night Lord Stratagem:
Activate when a Night Lord unit get's shot: The enemy must add -1 to hit for ranged weapons against that unit in this phase.
Alpha Legion Stratagem:
...It's the same as Raven Guard. Same CT and same Stratagem. *Yawn*
He wasn't 100% sure of the Black Legion and Word Bearer-Stratagems.
Black Legion had something about giving a squad rerolling 1's to hit during a shooting phase or combat phase, and an additional rule for Chaos Space Marine Squads (re-rolling 1's to wound as well?)
Word Bearers got to reroll their dices when summoning Daemons. Something more about doubles and triples that he couldn't decipher.
I found some time to upload the screenshots I took from the trial Codex on iStore. Unfortunately Imgur has compressed them which hurt the quality a bit. They are better to read than the images from blogs. I have also added other pages than those which have been posted online
That emperor's children tactic is stratagem can be absolutely amazing vs the right target especially if it lets kills with the bonus attacks generate extra attacks.
Imagine some close combat noise marines with icon and prescience (for an example) vs conscripts.
3 attacks each every 4+ to hit generates an extra attack, with DTFE.
Then every kill from those attacks generates another extra attack which can trigger death to false emperor again (since these bonus attacks aren't from DTFE)
Well likewise the NL trait is pretty bad, I leaks are supposed to be believed:
"Night Lords = -1 from enemy Ld when within 6" and can stack up to the maximum of - 3"
Range is short, you have to be straight at face, it doesn't stack much at all.
Atleast the word I hear among Space Marine players is that MSU is the king, so against MSU + ATSKNF this is not good at all. To get any meaningful stacking you need 2+ kills and then also several units to get the Trait to stack!
Then many other armies totally ignore Morale already in most cases: Astra Militarum and Tyranids, Orcs at some level.
"BIG LEAK from my GW Rep! Chaos Space Marines are getting new models for basic Chaos Marines. The core Marine box is no longer in system for GW and this typically means a new kit is imminent! You heard it here first guys!"
docdoom77 wrote: So, my FLGS posted this on their facebook page.
Take it for what it's worth:
"BIG LEAK from my GW Rep! Chaos Space Marines are getting new models for basic Chaos Marines. The core Marine box is no longer in system for GW and this typically means a new kit is imminent! You heard it here first guys!"
docdoom77 wrote: So, my FLGS posted this on their facebook page.
Take it for what it's worth:
"BIG LEAK from my GW Rep! Chaos Space Marines are getting new models for basic Chaos Marines. The core Marine box is no longer in system for GW and this typically means a new kit is imminent! You heard it here first guys!"
I hope it's true!
That is nuts if true.
*grumbles about literally just getting a CSM box on Saturday for some special weapon conversions*
docdoom77 wrote: So, my FLGS posted this on their facebook page.
Take it for what it's worth:
"BIG LEAK from my GW Rep! Chaos Space Marines are getting new models for basic Chaos Marines. The core Marine box is no longer in system for GW and this typically means a new kit is imminent! You heard it here first guys!"
Editing time:
typically means a reboxing or sometimes a new kit.
docdoom77 wrote: So, my FLGS posted this on their facebook page.
Take it for what it's worth:
"BIG LEAK from my GW Rep! Chaos Space Marines are getting new models for basic Chaos Marines. The core Marine box is no longer in system for GW and this typically means a new kit is imminent! You heard it here first guys!"
I hope it's true!
If it's on FB then you could, possibly, post the link? Not that I find it incredibly hard to believe and am slightly concerned that someone has posted exactly the sort of thing someone would post in a CSM update thread if they were looking to stir things up or anything.
bubber wrote: Can't you just give the squad the mark of tzeentch?
If going with the last iterations of the non-cult legions, only BL was allowed marked troops. It would make sense if legions all got mark options (maybe with limitations), but they haven't traditionally.
A few of the start collecting sets will be repackaged. This was reported by Mad Cow Crazy here on Dakka. They already have 32mm bases. The only change that would make sense is a new manual with unit datasheets in it.
bubber wrote: Can't you just give the squad the mark of tzeentch?
You could, but Iron Warriors do not worship any of the chaos gods, and certainly they do not worship Tzeentch to the point that they would become Marked by Tzeentch. Basically, so unfluffy.
bubber wrote: Can't you just give the squad the mark of tzeentch?
You could, but Iron Warriors do not worship any of the chaos gods, and certainly they do not worship Tzeentch to the point that they would become Marked by Tzeentch. Basically, so unfluffy.
It's just a keyword now, you don't pay for it from what I can tell. It lets you use specific strategems but not others (for example the khorne extra fight phase). It's not really unfluffy, there are traditionally undivided legions that still have squad members or whole units leaning toward a god. Khorne is much more popular since he is the war god but it's not that big of a stretch. At least it's a choice by you, what would be worse for the fluff is to disallow the legions from any allegiance to a god.
honestly I imagine they just wanted to show off the tzeetch power, and if 1k sons are getting their own codex, no real legion is tzeetchy and I guess they figured IW players would at least appreciate the mechancs of the power
bubber wrote: Can't you just give the squad the mark of tzeentch?
You could, but Iron Warriors do not worship any of the chaos gods, and certainly they do not worship Tzeentch to the point that they would become Marked by Tzeentch. Basically, so unfluffy.
It's just a keyword now, you don't pay for it from what I can tell. It lets you use specific strategems but not others (for example the khorne extra fight phase). It's not really unfluffy, there are traditionally undivided legions that still have squad members or whole units leaning toward a god. Khorne is much more popular since he is the war god but it's not that big of a stretch. At least it's a choice by you, what would be worse for the fluff is to disallow the legions from any allegiance to a god.
Nailed it on the head. You don't even have to call it the MoT, call it whatever you want, fluff wise you could just say they have been marked by your force's sorcery.
bubber wrote: Can't you just give the squad the mark of tzeentch?
You could, but Iron Warriors do not worship any of the chaos gods, and certainly they do not worship Tzeentch to the point that they would become Marked by Tzeentch. Basically, so unfluffy.
Ahriman didn't worshiped Tzeentch. He was marked nonetheless.
I think emperor's children have come out as one of the best legions, despite having one of the middle ground chapter tactics they have access to two of the best stratagems (double shooting, and +1 attack for everyone kill in close combat)
In addition they have exclusive access to the 2nd best troop choice in the codex after berserkers who are exclusive to WE. (other legions only get them as elites which means losing out on 2cp)
The emperor's children tactic + death to the false emperor + music of the apocalypse (noise marine) is going to do magical things
bubber wrote: Can't you just give the squad the mark of tzeentch?
You could, but Iron Warriors do not worship any of the chaos gods, and certainly they do not worship Tzeentch to the point that they would become Marked by Tzeentch. Basically, so unfluffy.
Plenty of Iron Warriors have marks. There is a difference between worshipping and simply accepting power. Horus didn't worship anything, neither does Abaddon or probably any of the Demon Primarchs. Yet they received their power just the same.
You only need to read ADB's Night Lords books to see examples where CSM are worshipping in deed, but not in thought. It's quite possible to attract the attention of a god without courting it.
docdoom77 wrote: So, my FLGS posted this on their facebook page.
Take it for what it's worth:
"BIG LEAK from my GW Rep! Chaos Space Marines are getting new models for basic Chaos Marines. The core Marine box is no longer in system for GW and this typically means a new kit is imminent! You heard it here first guys!"
I hope it's true!
If it's on FB then you could, possibly, post the link? Not that I find it incredibly hard to believe and am slightly concerned that someone has posted exactly the sort of thing someone would post in a CSM update thread if they were looking to stir things up or anything.
Here's the link. I was in the store when the call was made. It doesn't really tell us anything. I think a re-boxing is more likely, but I hope it's something better.
docdoom77 wrote: So, my FLGS posted this on their facebook page.
Take it for what it's worth:
"BIG LEAK from my GW Rep! Chaos Space Marines are getting new models for basic Chaos Marines. The core Marine box is no longer in system for GW and this typically means a new kit is imminent! You heard it here first guys!"
I hope it's true!
If it's on FB then you could, possibly, post the link? Not that I find it incredibly hard to believe and am slightly concerned that someone has posted exactly the sort of thing someone would post in a CSM update thread if they were looking to stir things up or anything.
Here's the link. I was in the store when the call was made. It doesn't really tell us anything. I think a re-boxing is more likely, but I hope it's something better.
I think I'm going to continue to maintain a healthily skeptical state of cautious optimism on that one, doesn't tickle my rumourometer, and it's usually pretty accurate.
Does the current CSM kit have 32mm bases in it? If not I think it's reasonable that they'd be doing both bases as well as datafax via a reboxing. Current SM kits mostly have the 32s in them at this point.
I'd be happy with three kits in this Chaos release... a new basic kit, new bezerkers, and a new Abbadon even if what we'll actually get are the bloodsoaked teethclenchers of KhorneTM, foresworn traitor legionairreTM, and Ascended Despoiler Lord of the CicatrixTM.
As much as I want them to be new models, I would think we'd have seen something of them by now and am gonna have to agree with the popular sentiment that its just another reboxing.
Boy do I hope I am wrong though. A new kit in a similar vein to the Raptor/Warp Talon Box with the newer scale of the 1ksons, Death Guard and Mk III would be great.
Hell even a reboxing of the Mk III and IV with a chaos upgrade sprue.
They're not releasing new kits. GW said this is gonna be a minimal release (alongside the GK), that means codex only, and possibly reboxing if they really need to do that. We know GW have been working overtime pumping out Primaris, and with proper Intercessor, Hellblaster and Inceptor squads being released shortly, as well as that tank and more characters, plus Mortarion, anew proper plague marine kit, new PM termies and the new PM tank, I don't know where GW would have had the time to get to work on vanilla chaos kits. There's been no hints at any other new chaos models, and all of that stuff mentioned above was hinted at and sneaked weeks or more before release. GW would have to be unusually tight-lipped on new chaos kits for them to suddenly appear amongst the huge wave of 8th ed releases.
I'm afraid people are getting their hopes up for nothing :-( But GW is watching now. They actually listen now. So GW, pull out those Slaanesh whips and get the boys in the dungeon working on these models we all know chaos needs. Badly... :-D
We already know it isn't getting released alongside the Codex, as we already have the release schedule in the White Dwarf.
However, since they switched to a weekly release schedule from a monthly, they've much more successfully kept things under wraps, if they've a mind to, and have been dropping the odd box and/or blister here or there into the schedule in quiet weeks.
We also have a mixed faction overlap with the Primaris, GK and CSM all releasing alongside each other, and if this isn't a first it's a rarity, but could easily mean the CSM box, if it exists, could release alongside something else completely unrelated a few weeks further out than we've seen.
So, while I don't think they're coming, nothing you say there actually conclusively eliminates the possibility.
Would be hilarious if this was as worded... Imagine dying during combat phase, triggering the shooting attack, shooting a sonic blaster into a blob, killing a model, shooting again, wash rinse repeat... Also include the DttFE... Imagine a single dying noise marine deleting an entire blob of guardsmen!
Emperor's Children Stratagem:
Activates in the combat phase. Each time a model of this squads kills an enemy model, he can immediately make another attack with the same weapon on the same enemy unit.
Azreal13 wrote: You only need to read ADB's Night Lords books to see examples where CSM are worshipping in deed, but not in thought. It's quite possible to attract the attention of a god without courting it.
Yea there's a bunch of inner monologues from Talos about a particularly insane chainaxe wielding member of his small squad who sits there ranting similarly to Kharne as they drop pod to a planets surface to murder a bunch of scrubs. He expresses his disgust for the guy slowly being drawn to Khorne despite him being a basic unmarked squad member.
So i dont know if anyone already did this but i took my phone camera and zoomed in on the picture in the white dwarf.
Black Legion: +1 to morale and when a unit with this advances all of their rapid fire guns become assault. the Example they give is rapid fire 2 -> assault 2
World Eaters: hard to read but i think it is "if a unit with this charges you can make an aditional melee attack"
Word Bearers: also hard to read but i think its "A Unit with this can reroll morale checks"
Alpha Legion: We joked about it but they did it. -1 to hit at 12" or more. Raven Guard copy paste
Night Lords: -1 leadership (for enemies) for every unit with this in 6" range
Renegades: They can advance and charge
Also theres a new special rule but i cant quite make it out. could be objective secured aswell but im not sure
Black Legion: +1 to morale and when a unit with this advances all of their rapid fire guns become assault. the Example they give is rapid fire 2 -> assault 2
that's GOT to be an error. if it isn't... well hooooly crap
I need to step away from here until the preview article. Seeing that turd of a Word Bearer Legion Trait among the other far superior options is really annoying me.
Eldarain wrote: I need to step away from here until the preview article. Seeing that turd of a Word Bearer Legion Trait among the other far superior options is really annoying me.
well I suppose once way to look at it would be if a space marine chapter has "Death to the false emperor" as their chapter tactics, granting an additional attack on a roll of 6+ (which would be under whelming yeah)
Black Legion: +1 to morale and when a unit with this advances all of their rapid fire guns become assault. the Example they give is rapid fire 2 -> assault 2
that's GOT to be an error. if it isn't... well hooooly crap
you think? its basicly just letting them shoot after advance but is worded in this way so that you cant advance into rapid fire range and use it (since rapid fire 1 would be assault 1 even withing 12")
I need to step away from here until the preview article. Seeing that turd of a Word Bearer Legion Trait among the other far superior options is really annoying me.
but wouldnt culist hordes profit from having ATSNF?
ScarletRose wrote: So in a weird reflection of the fluff Alpha Legion might as well play from the loyalist codex as the chaos one since we're getting the same bonus.
To be fair that's been true of most Chaos Legions for the about 7+ years now.
I think the new Legion traits are fantastic. GW are finally giving Chaos Marine Players what they have been asking for. A similar treatment to that of the loyal marines. We are even getting codexes for two of our "big" legions (1000 Sons and Death Guard). It is right proper, and it is good news, and about time. Now we just need a few new model set.
I think it is a shame that so many use this as an opportunity to complain.
Jack Spratt wrote: GW are finally giving Chaos Marine Players what they have been asking for
I don't remember there being plastic Havocs, Oblits or new Bikes in this release?
And have Chaos players been asking for a single special rule that defines their whole army?
I'm sure World Eater and Emperor's Children armies would love something akin to the Thousand Sons and upcoming Death Guard books. Personally I believe we'll get those eventually, but for the moment this Codex seems to be a slightly bigger stop-gap than the Index books.
Jack Spratt wrote: I think it is a shame that so many use this as an opportunity to complain.
Consider the near decade that Chaos spent in the wilderness. Chaos players have every right to be worried. Their Codex is going to be one of the first again, which means if it's another wash we're stuck with it. Tyranid players often have this feeling.
During the 24 live stream Jeremy Vetock let slip that he had seen Slaanesh stuff in the studio. This segment is mysteriously missing from the facebook archive.
I feel pretty certain that we will see emperors children next year and probably world eaters in 2019. GW seems determined to push 40k chaos as hard as they have been pushing Aos chaos.
Im just hoping that the relics and strategems can make up for the seemingly lackluster "Chapter Tactics" Personally I believe that the big 4 legions will eventually have their own dexes, released beside their primarch. So we'll see mortarian with the Death guard dex, then thousand sons, Fulgrim then Angron. I wouldn't be surprised to see the loyalist dexes mirror this, with the Lion and Russ on the way. Sorry Blood angels.
Chikout wrote: During the 24 live stream Jeremy Vetock let slip that he had seen Slaanesh stuff in the studio. This segment is mysteriously missing from the facebook archive.
I feel pretty certain that we will see emperors children next year and probably world eaters in 2019. GW seems determined to push 40k chaos as hard as they have been pushing Aos chaos.
BrianDavion wrote: I need to step away from here until the preview article. Seeing that turd of a Word Bearer Legion Trait among the other far superior options is really annoying me.
but wouldnt culist hordes profit from having ATSNF?
Yes, but not very much. Same with CSM horde units.
The problem though is that it will typically only save one or two models from those horde units - which really isn't much - and has the potentially to actually cause you to lose more models.
If 8th's Morale was like 7th and other previous editions where it was 'you either fail or pass' it'd be way better, as you'd re-roll every time you fail without question. Unfortunately with 8th's system re-rolling anything other than a 6 poses the risk of losing more models, which makes re-rolling a 3 or 4 a risk and making re-rolling a 2 a terrible decision. At least it's (hopefully) a choice - if it was forced than it would be even worse because of that.
If it was more reliable like '2D6 use the lowest' it'd be way better if still weak, because at least then it wouldn't have a chance to backfire.
Chikout wrote: During the 24 live stream Jeremy Vetock let slip that he had seen Slaanesh stuff in the studio. This segment is mysteriously missing from the facebook archive.
I feel pretty certain that we will see emperors children next year and probably world eaters in 2019. GW seems determined to push 40k chaos as hard as they have been pushing Aos chaos.
Just fyi i made it with a better screen and could translate the 3 new Dark Hereticus power.
One power i coudnt decipher, maybe adding strenght to a unit.
One power to cancel Invulnerable save
One power to target a unit, roll D6, if the result is > Target thougness she take 1D3+3 mortal wound.
If the target is a character and is killed, he's transformed into a Chaos spawn (dunno if we have to take the point in army list like for the Tzeencht staff).
Take it with salt, the quality of those images are pur garbage.
Chikout wrote: During the 24 live stream Jeremy Vetock let slip that he had seen Slaanesh stuff in the studio. This segment is mysteriously missing from the facebook archive.
I feel pretty certain that we will see emperors children next year and probably world eaters in 2019. GW seems determined to push 40k chaos as hard as they have been pushing Aos chaos.
Well the new Greater Demon is already done
Keeper of Secrets?
Yaarp. Although I still maintain the old 2nd Ed model was the pinnacle
Alpha Legion are pretty much Raven Guard now. Is is kind of ok because I was always torn between wanting to play both stealth armies. Now they're the same army, maybe I'll play RG too with my AL army now. Funny thing is AL would play better if they had scouts as troops instead of CSM or cultists. Kind of lends weight to the idea that RG are completely infiltrated by AL though :-D
As for the WB's I think ATSKNF isn't something to sneeze at. SM's get that in place of DTTFE on their sheet, getting both for free is pretty good. It's much safer with a re-roll to take larger CSM squads and to take blob cultists. It's a shame morale works the way it does though, GW missed a trick by keeping fall back morale and not adding battleshock as a special mechanic for certain units. But it is what it is. A re-roll is better than no re-roll. It might work out worse that's always a possibility but you ahve the option at least to re-roll, and without the cost of a CP. This edition is about re-rolling dice, it's how you leverage statistics and averages and offset the extreme end of bad luck. Anything that gives you free re-rolls is strong in 8th ed. My question is does this re-roll apply to Daemons summoned by WB's? Keyword interactions would be interesting here. If ATSKNF were to apply to Daemons in WB's armies wouldn't this make the tactic very very strong? Daemons die easily with weak armour saves, and they often benefit you by taking them in large squads. If this isn't the case due to the lack of Heretic Astartes rules then I'd urge all WB players to hound GW with requests to extend the rule to Daemons summoned by WB characters.
The BL thing is funny, because if it's worded as rapid fire weapons becoming assault weapons then those bolters and plasma guns are being reduced to a single shot only with a profile of Assault 1 24". It'd have to say something like "Rapid Fire weapons *count as* Assault for purposes of determining if a model can advance and fire." Then they'd retain the double shots at 12".
Chikout wrote: During the 24 live stream Jeremy Vetock let slip that he had seen Slaanesh stuff in the studio. This segment is mysteriously missing from the facebook archive.
I feel pretty certain that we will see emperors children next year and probably world eaters in 2019. GW seems determined to push 40k chaos as hard as they have been pushing Aos chaos.
Well the new Greater Demon is already done
Keeper of Secrets?
Yaarp. Although I still maintain the old 2nd Ed model was the pinnacle
Personally I think that the Forgeworld Keeper captured the androgynously beautiful and the monstrous quite well.
But I am interested to see what GW has come up with for theirs.
Hopefully it has a few alternate heads.
But before that I hope we are getting a new Great Unclean One/ Ku'gath.
Come on GW don't let me down.
Jack Spratt wrote: I think the new Legion traits are fantastic. GW are finally giving Chaos Marine Players what they have been asking for. A similar treatment to that of the loyal marines. We are even getting codexes for two of our "big" legions (1000 Sons and Death Guard). It is right proper, and it is good news, and about time. Now we just need a few new model set.
I think it is a shame that so many use this as an opportunity to complain.
May Nurgle bless you for your efforts....
Pretty sure no one has been asking it for be this horrible.
Aplha is the exact same as ravenguard. Boring as Iron Warriors same as imperial fists, see above
Word Bearers, gain the traint every freaking marine has. Wow.
Yup this is what people wanted, look at all that flavor and originality!
We haven't seen the other stratagems so far.
Reading the comments I think GW can only lose. If we get other Legion traits people say: "Mimimi, SM got better than us!" If we get the same people are like: "B-b-b-but that's boring! It's the same!"
CSM are a different army. What we share with loyalist marines are tactical squads, raptors, bikes, Havocs, rhinos, Land Raiders, Vindicators, Predators, Dreads and Terminators. Our Terminators have a very different load out though. I'd be surprised if you'd ever encounter two players, one plays Raven Guard, the other Alpha Legion, one has 3 squads of tactical marines, a captain, a librarian, 1 Predator, 2 squads of devastators and a squad of Jump pack marines. The other has a Lord, a sorcerer, 3 squads of CSM, 1pred, 2 Havocs, 1Raptors.
Even if that was ever the case (it won't, as you'll see Centurions, Primaris stuff, Land speeders or what have you) these two armies would still have different warlord traits, psykic disciplines, equipment and stratagems aside from the 4 we know they share. Yes, you could call it bland that they share a Legion rule, but even if that situation happened... wouldn't that be fluffy as hell for an Alpha Legion army? People overreact to the similarities of these traits, ignoring whatelse there is in the SM and CSM codex in actual units to differentiate the two. We have neither a Stormraven nor Guilliman, so don't be afraid to meet an SM army that looks like your CSM army .
Jack Spratt wrote: I think the new Legion traits are fantastic. GW are finally giving Chaos Marine Players what they have been asking for. A similar treatment to that of the loyal marines. We are even getting codexes for two of our "big" legions (1000 Sons and Death Guard). It is right proper, and it is good news, and about time. Now we just need a few new model set.
I think it is a shame that so many use this as an opportunity to complain.
May Nurgle bless you for your efforts....
Pretty sure no one has been asking it for be this horrible.
Aplha is the exact same as ravenguard. Boring as Iron Warriors same as imperial fists, see above
Word Bearers, gain the traint every freaking marine has. Wow.
Yup this is what people wanted, look at all that flavor and originality!
If you look at the collected amount of rules in 40K, It find it very hard to accuse GW of not being original. If you just look at Chaos Space Marine I still find it hard. We are talking about hundreds of rules. It just makes no sense. Why is it a problem for a Ravenguard player, that an Alpha player has similar rules? Same for IW and IF. Both rules are useful. Enjoy them and find cool ways to use them instead.Be positive.
On top of that GW have introduced Strategems and Legion/Chapter specific artefact to further define the different forces. What more can you want?
What will be next? Are you going to be angry that several units in the game have a BS of 3+...? Or that a chainsword used by all marines are the same...?
You do not have a case.
Haters will hate.
The new edition of 40 K i looking fantastic. In my opinion it is shaping up to be the best edition yet.
Jack Spratt wrote: I think the new Legion traits are fantastic. GW are finally giving Chaos Marine Players what they have been asking for. A similar treatment to that of the loyal marines. We are even getting codexes for two of our "big" legions (1000 Sons and Death Guard). It is right proper, and it is good news, and about time. Now we just need a few new model set.
I think it is a shame that so many use this as an opportunity to complain.
May Nurgle bless you for your efforts....
Pretty sure no one has been asking it for be this horrible.
Aplha is the exact same as ravenguard. Boring as Iron Warriors same as imperial fists, see above
Word Bearers, gain the traint every freaking marine has. Wow.
Yup this is what people wanted, look at all that flavor and originality!
If you look at the collected amount of rules in 40K, It find it very hard to accuse GW of not being original. If you just look at Chaos Space Marine I still find it hard. We are talking about hundreds of rules. It just makes no sense. Why is it a problem for a Ravenguard player, that an Alpha player has similar rules? Same for IW and IF. Both rules are useful. Enjoy them and find cool ways to use them instead.Be positive.
On top of that GW have introduced Strategems and Legion/Chapter specific artefact to further define the different forces. What more can you want?
What will be next? Are you going to be angry that several units in the game have a BS of 3+...? Or that a chainsword used by all marines are the same...?
You do not have a case.
Haters will hate.
The new edition of 40 K i looking fantastic. In my opinion it is shaping up to be the best edition yet.
Im not saying the rules are not useful. Every legion has special abilities in the heresy rules they could have super easily converted to 40k to make them more fluff based and flavorful. In its place we get laziness. A chainsword is the same because its a weapon, and marines are the same stats they have always been. Legions, how they operate and fight are all very different. That was the entire point of the emp creating them. This shows GW doesn't understand their own fluff/just being lazy.
I never said I hate the game. It is criticism, big difference.
IW:
Roll an additional d6/d3 when determining the damage value of a weapon and the effects of mutilators/obliterators and keep the highest.
NL:
Enemy units within 6" roll their morale tests as if they had lost twice as many models.
Opponent must add -1 to their hit rolls in their first shooting phase of the battle.
AL:
Vanguard movement.
May have one more unit in tactical reserve.
WB:
Can summon demons regardless of their alignment if character is unaligned. Do not have to stay stationary to do so. Unit champions can summon as if they were characters.
WE:
Reroll failed to hit and wound rolls against psykers in the fight phase. Each unit can attempt to deny one psychic power in each opponent's psychic phase. Do not roll any dice but instead is considered to have a rolled an 8.
EC:
May replace any combi-bolter or boltgun with a sonic blaster. May replace any Lascannon or Twin-Lascannon with a Blastmaster. May replace any flamer or heavy flamer with a doom siren. (these weapon options extent to all units with the emperors children keyword, not just infantery, bikers and helbrutes.)
May reroll to-wound rolls of 1 with sonic blasters, blastmasters and doom sirens.
BL:
Each detachment with this legion keyword generates an additional command point.
Each d6 a black legion unit would roll in the morale phase is considered to have a result of 4.
It is entirely possible that some of the above is op as [explicit] but at least it is somewhat more original.
To all the Word Bearer's players out there: this is just the Legion Trait. Let's wait and see what relics, psychic powers and stratagems you get before wailing too much.
The Black Legion legion trait sounds cool but let's be clear: it's a buff for bolters, autoguns and plasma guns. It gets you slightly closer to the enemy at the cost of assault. These guns are rapid fire 1, so becoming assault 1 does not increase the number of shots.
Noise Marines already have assault weapons that do this better and cost less than plasma. Not sure I would want to trade a squad of them for CSMs / chosen / havocs, which would be putting out fewer shots. Volume of fire appears to matter most in this edition.
The +1 leadership speaks to the importance of morale. TBH, rerolling failed morale checks might be more useful over the course of a game (even though that's still not saying much.)
First off, I like most of what I have seen. Slightly underpowered vs space marines is where you want the codex to be so power creep doesnt mess the whole edition up and leave us behind. Second, the fact we have legion tactics at all amazes me. 3rd, if you have a better idea pass it to their facebook page. Post it and maybe they will see the likes and errata it. That being said, yes some of those are terrible. Find a way to represent your legion and or warband for the meanwhile. Use the units detachments and what you got instead of focusing on what you dont have. I personally do not mind running my word bearers with those rules.
You only need to think that in fact the chaos codex was written first. In that case, IF copied the rule of IW and RG the one of AL. Fixed, now the boring ones are the Space marines.
Yeah, sorry, not very good.
Non-linear rules don't fit this edition (ex: NL)
Unit-specific buffs pigeonhole play-style (ex: IW, WB)
The claim for originality doesn't go very far when you copy from earlier C:CSM (ex: EC)
In an earlier edition, the WB rule would have been better, but it's been a long time since summonable daemons were part of codex CSM, and it's just unreasonable for it to be the army's only buff to have it interact with another book.
Am I missing something? The NL Haunter's Curse seems a bit weak? Salamanders get to re-roll a failed hit and wound PER UNIT. NL get to once per battle round...
"Models in enemy units must subtract 1 from their Leadership characteristic for each unit with this trait that is within 6" of theirs (to a maximum of -3)."
"...Three units of Raptors equipped with Icons of Despair can knock enemy leadership down by 5 whole points.".
So from this it sounds like the Raptor's Fearsome Visage ability might be changing to a negative Ld modifier that doesn't stack.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: "Models in enemy units must subtract 1 from their Leadership characteristic for each unit with this trait that is within 6" of theirs (to a maximum of -3)."
"...Three units of Raptors equipped with Icons of Despair can knock enemy leadership down by 5 whole points.".
So from this it sounds like the Raptor's Fearsome Visage ability might be changing to a negative Ld modifier that doesn't stack.
Raptors already don't stack, you can't stack the same buff/debuff ability more than once unless the buff/debuff says it can be done. Different named abilities can stack however so spawn, icon of despair and raptors's auras stack.
"Night Lords Chaos Lords with Jump Packs are going to number among the deadliest combatants in the 41st Millennium. Take yours with the Claws of the Black Hunt, Night Haunter’s Curse and Diabolic Strength from a nearby Sorcerer and your lord will be dishing out six Strength 6 Attacks, each doing D3 Damage at AP -3 with rerolls to wound. With a reroll to a failed charge, this is a great assassin unit for killing key characters such as Primaris Apothecaries."
Hmm, given that the Claws of the Black Hunt give +1S and +1A, and Diabolic Strength gives +2S and +1A, it's actually 7 S7 hits. I've done the maths, and have concluded that that's better than the 6 S6 hits that they suggested.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: "Models in enemy units must subtract 1 from their Leadership characteristic for each unit with this trait that is within 6" of theirs (to a maximum of -3)."
"...Three units of Raptors equipped with Icons of Despair can knock enemy leadership down by 5 whole points.".
So from this it sounds like the Raptor's Fearsome Visage ability might be changing to a negative Ld modifier that doesn't stack.
Raptors already don't stack, you can't stack the same buff/debuff ability more than once unless the buff/debuff says it can be done. Different named abilities can stack however so spawn, icon of despair and raptors's auras stack.
Huh, didn't realise that before (but it hadn't come up in any of the games I've played so thankfully I haven't been playing that wrong).
Still seems to maybe be 'changing' from +1 to enemy Morale Tests to -1 Ld, even if aside from a few edge cases the difference is meaningless.
EDIT: Actually could you provide a page reference to this 'same abilities don't stack' rule? I can't find it and I'd like to know where it is if it comes up in any of our games in the future.
Rydria wrote: EC legion trait are actually a copy as well, they where copied from slaanesh daemons instead though.
Edit: I've never seen the nightlord model at the front of that army picture the one with two power swords is that a new model or a conversion ?
Should be a conversion. Possessed legs, Chaos Marine torso, Grey Knight falchions, some Chaos Warrior helmet plus assorted bits I reckon without checking.
TonyH122 wrote: "Night Lords Chaos Lords with Jump Packs are going to number among the deadliest combatants in the 41st Millennium. Take yours with the Claws of the Black Hunt, Night Haunter’s Curse and Diabolic Strength from a nearby Sorcerer and your lord will be dishing out six Strength 6 Attacks, each doing D3 Damage at AP -3 with rerolls to wound. With a reroll to a failed charge, this is a great assassin unit for killing key characters such as Primaris Apothecaries."
Hmm, given that the Claws of the Black Hunt give +1S and +1A, and Diabolic Strength gives +2S and +1A, it's actually 7 S7 hits. I've done the maths, and have concluded that that's better than the 6 S6 hits that they suggested.
Will Night Lords sorcerers still have access to Warp Time? This CL would be even more vicious if it could assault from deep strike.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: "Models in enemy units must subtract 1 from their Leadership characteristic for each unit with this trait that is within 6" of theirs (to a maximum of -3)."
"...Three units of Raptors equipped with Icons of Despair can knock enemy leadership down by 5 whole points.".
So from this it sounds like the Raptor's Fearsome Visage ability might be changing to a negative Ld modifier that doesn't stack.
Raptors already don't stack, you can't stack the same buff/debuff ability more than once unless the buff/debuff says it can be done. Different named abilities can stack however so spawn, icon of despair and raptors's auras stack.
Now the biggest remaining question is how are the Leadership modifiers applied to Leadership in Morale Test, specifically how they interact with the Re-roll on failed test. Example would be ATSKNF.
Re-roll rule (p. 178) states:
".. re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied."
Morale Test however is [1D6 + Casualties - Leadership = Result].
IMO all these rules modifying leadership are leadership modifiers, and they should be applied only after condition for re-roll is checked in ATSKNF rule.
If it works like this, then the NL Legion Trait is very powerful, against Space Marines atleast. And can work wonderfully against AM if one manages to snipe the Commissar somehow, single jump pack Chaos Lord might be the best way to do this.
EDIT: Actually could you provide a page reference to this 'same abilities don't stack' rule? I can't find it and I'd like to know where it is if it comes up in any of our games in the future.
Aura rule: BRB p. 179.
Aura stacking: BRBFAQ Official update version 1.1, p. 3 bottom right.
Ghorgul wrote: Aura rule: BRB p. 179.
Aura stacking: BRBFAQ Official update version 1.1, p. 3 bottom right.
This doesn't appear to apply. Raptors "add 1 to the Morale tests of any enemy units within 1" of this unit". The FAQ is talking about abilities which are templated like: "[do something] to [targets] within [distance] of any [my_name]". You'll note that they specifically errata'd the Ravenwing Darkshroud so that instead of being templated like the Raptors' ability, its ability now uses the "within 6" of any Darkshroud" templating.
Now the biggest remaining question is how are the Leadership modifiers applied to Leadership in Morale Test, specifically how they interact with the Re-roll on failed test. Example would be ATSKNF.
Re-roll rule (p. 178) states:
".. re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied."
Morale Test however is [1D6 + Casualties - Leadership = Result].
IMO all these rules modifying leadership are leadership modifiers, and they should be applied only after condition for re-roll is checked in ATSKNF rule.
If it works like this, then the NL Legion Trait is very powerful, against Space Marines atleast. And can work wonderfully against AM if one manages to snipe the Commissar somehow, single jump pack Chaos Lord might be the best way to do this.
I'm going to have to disagree with this, on the basis that this isn't a modifier to the roll but to the characteristic, this is no different than a powerfist modifying a model's strength. As supporting evidence I would like to submit the Nurgle psychic power Gift of contagion, this power modifies the profile of the target unit. You are right that modifiers apply after re-rolls, but I would submit that this goes for modifiers to rolls, not characteristic modifiers. Also, page 175 of the BRB speaks of characteristic modifiers, which seem to be quite different from roll modifiers.
Chaos Stratagem and legion traits Stratagem:
From Within, From Without,
Scion of Sorcery,
Excess of Violence(?)
Dark Pact (World Bearer)
Legion Traits:
Black Legion: Black Crusaders
Night Lords: Terror Tactics
Emperors Children: Flawless Perfection
World Bearers: Profane Zeal
Aplha Legion: Hidden in Plain Sight
Renegade Chapters: Dark Raiders
World Eaters: Buthcers Nails
PrimarisBA wrote: [url=https://www.brokendicegods.com/single-post/2017/08/02/Grey-Knights-New-Chapter-specific-Primaris-Marines-Codex-Heretic-Astartes-Traits-and-StatagemChaos Stratagem and Traits
]Chaos Stratagem and legion traits[/url]
Stratagem:
From Within, From Without,
Scion of Sorcery,
Excess of Violence(?)
Dark Pact (World Bearer)
Legion Traits:
Black Legion: Black Crusaders
Night Lords: Terror Tactics
Emperors Children: Flawless Perfection
World Bearers: Profane Zeal
Aplha Legion: Hidden in Plain Sight
Renegade Chapters: Dark Raiders
World Eaters: Buthcers Nails
I'm achually liking the similarities. Loving the fluffyness of the rules but also how they are looking balanced.
Will of course not "pass judgement" on it all till i've seen the chaos & GK codex's play a few games. Had a game vs SM (Death guard here). I Loved how the SM's played with the new dex' I honestly cannot wait for the other Codex's
Casting value 6. Select enemy unit, roll a d6. If it's above their toughness, they take d3+3 mortal wounds. If a character is slain, add a spawn. Pretty good actually. It's going to feel good to turn a commissar into a spawn.
Casting value 6. Select enemy unit, roll a d6. If it's above their toughness, they take d3+3 mortal wounds. If a character is slain, add a spawn. Pretty good actually. It's going to feel good to turn a commissar into a spawn.
You could take a Jump Pack Sorcerer with that and Infernal Gaze as a dedicated character sniper.
Casting value 6. Select enemy unit, roll a d6. If it's above their toughness, they take d3+3 mortal wounds. If a character is slain, add a spawn. Pretty good actually. It's going to feel good to turn a commissar into a spawn.
......and we're headed back down the rabbit hole of "how many dice can we make someone roll to do 1 thing." Seriously, you have to roll for the psychic test, the d6 to compare to toughness, then the mortal wounds. This can be good, but way, way waaaaayyyyy too random for my blood....
Casting value 6. Select enemy unit, roll a d6. If it's above their toughness, they take d3+3 mortal wounds. If a character is slain, add a spawn. Pretty good actually. It's going to feel good to turn a commissar into a spawn.
......and we're headed back down the rabbit hole of "how many dice can we make someone roll to do 1 thing." Seriously, you have to roll for the psychic test, the d6 to compare to toughness, then the mortal wounds. This can be good, but way, way waaaaayyyyy too random for my blood....
Eh. The basic resolution system for the game is three rolls (per attack).
Though admittedly the sheer absurd number of dice that can be generated by attacks should just replaced by a set statistical resolution. It would save boatloads of time.
Casting value 6. Select enemy unit, roll a d6. If it's above their toughness, they take d3+3 mortal wounds. If a character is slain, add a spawn. Pretty good actually. It's going to feel good to turn a commissar into a spawn.
......and we're headed back down the rabbit hole of "how many dice can we make someone roll to do 1 thing." Seriously, you have to roll for the psychic test, the d6 to compare to toughness, then the mortal wounds. This can be good, but way, way waaaaayyyyy too random for my blood....
Eh. The basic resolution system for the game is three rolls (per attack).
Though admittedly the sheer absurd number of dice that can be generated by attacks should just replaced by a set statistical resolution. It would save boatloads of time.
No kidding, I played in a tourney over the weekend and got charged by a unit of Ork Boyz.....108 attacks......
Oh good gods. Someone has to be making a dedicated effort to make a modern camera or scanner operate that poorly.
those are from a White Dwarf, so I think those artifacts are from the print itself.
I really feel like this is GW purposefully leaking gak to keep the excitement up but also keeping them so gakky quality they might as well be worthless images.
Oh good gods. Someone has to be making a dedicated effort to make a modern camera or scanner operate that poorly.
those are from a White Dwarf, so I think those artifacts are from the print itself.
I really feel like this is GW purposefully leaking gak to keep the excitement up but also keeping them so gakky quality they might as well be worthless images.
The Codex pages printed in the WD tend to be about an inch square, so they can only be CSI'd so far.
Casting value 6. Select enemy unit, roll a d6. If it's above their toughness, they take d3+3 mortal wounds. If a character is slain, add a spawn. Pretty good actually. It's going to feel good to turn a commissar into a spawn.
Now, maybe it's just me but....I'm pretty sure I see a single digit range on that power. Maybe it is 18, but that's best case (and still too short do anything to a commissar).
Casting value 6. Select enemy unit, roll a d6. If it's above their toughness, they take d3+3 mortal wounds. If a character is slain, add a spawn. Pretty good actually. It's going to feel good to turn a commissar into a spawn.
Now, maybe it's just me but....I'm pretty sure I see a single digit range on that power. Maybe it is 18, but that's best case (and still too short do anything to a commissar).
Overall, I like it. Its more or less what I expected really.
Yes, there are a lot of similarities, but that's fine. It puts us at an even level with most SM chapters and that's all I ask for. And we still got a few primarchs waiting to be released. And there's death guard. We may get world Eaters codex and Angron, and Fulgrim and Emperor's children codex down the road too.
PrimarisBA wrote: [url=https://www.brokendicegods.com/single-post/2017/08/02/Grey-Knights-New-Chapter-specific-Primaris-Marines-Codex-Heretic-Astartes-Traits-and-StatagemChaos Stratagem and Traits
]Chaos Stratagem and legion traits[/url]
Stratagem:
From Within, From Without,
Scion of Sorcery,
Excess of Violence(?)
Dark Pact (World Bearer)
Legion Traits:
Black Legion: Black Crusaders
Night Lords: Terror Tactics
Emperors Children: Flawless Perfection
World Bearers: Profane Zeal
Aplha Legion: Hidden in Plain Sight
Renegade Chapters: Dark Raiders
World Eaters: Buthcers Nails
I'm seeing: "Renegade Chapters: Dark Raiders - Units with this trait can advance and charge in the same turn." Am I seeing that right? Because that would be fantastic.
PrimarisBA wrote: [url=https://www.brokendicegods.com/single-post/2017/08/02/Grey-Knights-New-Chapter-specific-Primaris-Marines-Codex-Heretic-Astartes-Traits-and-StatagemChaos Stratagem and Traits
]Chaos Stratagem and legion traits[/url]
Stratagem:
From Within, From Without,
Scion of Sorcery,
Excess of Violence(?)
Dark Pact (World Bearer)
Legion Traits:
Black Legion: Black Crusaders
Night Lords: Terror Tactics
Emperors Children: Flawless Perfection
World Bearers: Profane Zeal
Aplha Legion: Hidden in Plain Sight
Renegade Chapters: Dark Raiders
World Eaters: Buthcers Nails
I'm seeing: "Renegade Chapters: Dark Raiders - Units with this trait can advance and charge in the same turn." Am I seeing that right? Because that would be fantastic.
Yeah that is there trait from all the rumours posted so far, it makes me want to do an all biker army again.
There are 7 left on both sides. Horus, curze and alpharius are dead (recent heresy book is extremely clear that he is dead). Of course, with psychic indoctrination many are programmed to think they are alpharius.
There are 7 left on both sides. Horus, curze and alpharius are dead (recent heresy book is extremely clear that he is dead). Of course, with psychic indoctrination many are programmed to think they are alpharius.
I am expecting some kick ass aura buffs and stats from Mortarion. I mean, look at Gulliman. He has monster stats, wields OP weapons, and his aura is op too (rerolls to hit and wounds!) lol.
Mortarion is such a famous Daemon Primarch, I would be disappointed if he was worse than Gulliman.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I am expecting some kick ass aura buffs and stats from Mortarion. I mean, look at Gulliman. He has monster stats, wields OP weapons, and his aura is op too (rerolls to hit and wounds!) lol.
Mortarion is such a famous Daemon Primarch, I would be disappointed if he was worse than Gulliman.
Mortarian will be good, but don't expect him to just be "Gulliman for the death guard" for one thing Morty is a DEAMON PRIMARCH, so he's going to be more powerful (with a higher price tag) most likely, also he's proably not gonna be as good a buffer as Gulliman, because that's not really the character Schtick. Mortiarian wasn't partiuclarly famed as a leader of men the way Gulliman was. (none of the, surviving, chaos Primarchs where really in the same League as Gulliman that way. Looking at Gulliman and Magnus though we can make a prediction. I'm gonna guess that Mortarian will allow re-rolled armor and or disgustingly resiliant saves of all units within 7 inches. (if he allows re-rolls of DR he's gonna be a near auto take for death guard IMHO)
Arachnofiend wrote: He'll probably be heavier on the killy side than the buffing side, much like Magnus.
However he will also probably be more than 10 wounds and liable to be gibbed before he does anything useful, also like Magnus.
My guess is that putting him down isn't gonna be that easy (although yes hell have more then 10 wounds, I'd bet 21, multiples of 7 and all ) nurgle is the "tankyness god" so I suspect Mortarian is gonna be the "tanky" deamon Primarch. I mean, let's assume my guesses are about right, stats wise he'll likely be Toughness 7 or 8, 21 wounds (I went with 21 as it's a multiple of 7) invul 4+ with DR re-rolling 1s on DR... he could potentially be pretty tough to take down
Cant see Mortarion giving anywhere near te buffs Gulliman gives. Im sure he will have a more powerful plague aura, maybe causing mortal wound on a 5/4+ . Hes going to be scary in combat, can obviously fly and possibly a couple of psychc powers? I imagine he'll be pretty tough to kill, possibly some cloud of flies like thing/noxious clouds making him a little harder to shoot at
These leaks are clearly GW keeping the hype alive. no reason other than intention for the quality to be so low. From what little I can read of it I think the Despoilers of the Galaxy is ObSec, it's talking about objective counters I believe. I dunno if it' say chaos infantry get this or just CSM though. Imagine cultists with ObSec...
The Alpharius thing is up in the air, as is everything AL. Alpharius may have been two people all along (twins) or he may have been one soul split into two bodies by some weird freak of psychic accident (or design....). He/they may or may not be dead because we know for sure they body swapped all the time, and designed their/his legionnaires to look almost exactly alike him/them. At any point they're described as dying you just don't know if it was really them or not. There're theories that Alpharius or Omegon may have gone on to become the founder of the Grey Knights, there's also one that one of them took up disguise as Guilliman. I doubt the later is true given GW's hard-on for Smurfs but the former *might* be true. The fact that such theories exist shows you how uncertain you be of anything AL related, especially concerning their primarch(s). My own pet theory is similar to the way Malkavian work in VtM, I reckon Alpharius had his soul split into two bodies and his entire legion were psychic extensions of him. I think the physical Alpharius is dead but the psychic essence of him, split into two still resides in the Alpha Legionnaires but has gone insane by being affected by the psychic equivalent of a split-personality. Hence why they still seem to follow conflicting objectives, working both for and against chaos, for and against the Imperium without really knowing why. That's my pet theory anyway and entirely OT!
Mortarion - he'll be more of a beat stick but good luck killing him. Expect T8/9, tons of wounds, 2+/5++/4+++ save and maybe even some kind of -1 hit cloud.His buff will be basic I think, he doesn't exactly lead his legion anymore.
Mortarion - he'll be more of a beat stick but good luck killing him. Expect T8/9, tons of wounds, 2+/5++/4+++ save and maybe even some kind of -1 hit cloud.His buff will be basic I think, he doesn't exactly lead his legion anymore.
He does again. The rulebook and the DG booklet point out that Mortarion unified the DG and took the lead. Typhus doesn't follow him, though.
The Alpharius thing is up in the air, as is everything AL. Alpharius may have been two people all along (twins) or he may have been one soul split into two bodies by some weird freak of psychic accident (or design....). He/they may or may not be dead because we know for sure they body swapped all the time, and designed their/his legionnaires to look almost exactly alike him/them. At any point they're described as dying you just don't know if it was really them or not. There're theories that Alpharius or Omegon may have gone on to become the founder of the Grey Knights, there's also one that one of them took up disguise as Guilliman. I doubt the later is true given GW's hard-on for Smurfs but the former *might* be true. The fact that such theories exist shows you how uncertain you be of anything AL related, especially concerning their primarch(s). My own pet theory is similar to the way Malkavian work in VtM, I reckon Alpharius had his soul split into two bodies and his entire legion were psychic extensions of him. I think the physical Alpharius is dead but the psychic essence of him, split into two still resides in the Alpha Legionnaires but has gone insane by being affected by the psychic equivalent of a split-personality. Hence why they still seem to follow conflicting objectives, working both for and against chaos, for and against the Imperium without really knowing why. That's my pet theory anyway and entirely OT!
The novel "Legion" explains exactly who Alpharius/Omegon are and why the Alpha Legion sided with Chaos.
Unless the novel is a falsehood to throw people off
Arachnofiend wrote: He'll probably be heavier on the killy side than the buffing side, much like Magnus.
However he will also probably be more than 10 wounds and liable to be gibbed before he does anything useful, also like Magnus.
My guess is that putting him down isn't gonna be that easy (although yes hell have more then 10 wounds, I'd bet 21, multiples of 7 and all ) nurgle is the "tankyness god" so I suspect Mortarian is gonna be the "tanky" deamon Primarch. I mean, let's assume my guesses are about right, stats wise he'll likely be Toughness 7 or 8, 21 wounds (I went with 21 as it's a multiple of 7) invul 4+ with DR re-rolling 1s on DR... he could potentially be pretty tough to take down
Considering how terrible GUO are, I highly doubt he would have that many. GW thinks that if they give something DR, is has to have less wounds then anything else for some reason.
GUO has 12 wounds, Bloodthirster not only has a +3 armor, but 16 wounds. Nurgle may be in the spotlight, but don't expect mortation to be anything amazing. Hes not a loyalist, so already gimped in GWs eyes
It will be very interesting to see how Mortarion fare out under 8th. I am guessing Magnus will be re-adjusted a bit when the Thousand Sons Codex comes out.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They kill you in CC, they kill your characters in CC, and they kill your spells. That's basically it. But hey, it's World Eaters, did we expect something else?
They look rather one dimensional, but boy do they perform in that one dimensional! If they get in CC, they will kill whatever it is that they want dead as long as they have the right tools for the job.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They kill you in CC, they kill your characters in CC, and they kill your spells. That's basically it. But hey, it's World Eaters, did we expect something else?
I wanted something to help get into close combat without having to rely on Warp Time. Hopefully the across the board point reductions that swept through Space Marines will also sweep through Chaos Marines and allow us a little more wiggle room to bring more bodies to the table.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They kill you in CC, they kill your characters in CC, and they kill your spells. That's basically it. But hey, it's World Eaters, did we expect something else?
I wanted something to help get into close combat without having to rely on Warp Time. Hopefully the across the board point reductions that swept through Space Marines will also sweep through Chaos Marines and allow us a little more wiggle room to bring more bodies to the table.
From the looks of it, CSM will at least be getting the same Wargear price reduction. Hopefully unit prices go down as well, especially for units that both armies have.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They kill you in CC, they kill your characters in CC, and they kill your spells. That's basically it. But hey, it's World Eaters, did we expect something else?
I wanted something to help get into close combat without having to rely on Warp Time. Hopefully the across the board point reductions that swept through Space Marines will also sweep through Chaos Marines and allow us a little more wiggle room to bring more bodies to the table.
Already a suggestion of that with Power Fists confirmed going to 12pts in the article
Automatically Appended Next Post: They kill you in CC, they kill your characters in CC, and they kill your spells. That's basically it. But hey, it's World Eaters, did we expect something else?
I wanted something to help get into close combat without having to rely on Warp Time. Hopefully the across the board point reductions that swept through Space Marines will also sweep through Chaos Marines and allow us a little more wiggle room to bring more bodies to the table.
Berserkers in a rhino are not bad at all. Rhinos are a real pain for most armies I have faced to deal with. My emperors children list has 4 lol, I just keep my troops safe turn 1 then disembark and assault their lines with my rhino wall, it really does work. It's tough for armies to kill a t7 10 wound 3+ model in a shooting phase, let alone multiple.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They kill you in CC, they kill your characters in CC, and they kill your spells. That's basically it. But hey, it's World Eaters, did we expect something else?
No, but it would be nice if Khorne was the god of all bloodshed, not just punching people in the face.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They kill you in CC, they kill your characters in CC, and they kill your spells. That's basically it. But hey, it's World Eaters, did we expect something else?
No, but it would be nice if Khorne was the god of all bloodshed, not just punching people in the face.
So the best chaos God, because this is a WARgame? You ask for the chaos legion rules to be so generaliced to fit tour interpretation of the gods that they lose their reason to exist.
Automatically Appended Next Post: They kill you in CC, they kill your characters in CC, and they kill your spells. That's basically it. But hey, it's World Eaters, did we expect something else?
I wanted something to help get into close combat without having to rely on Warp Time. Hopefully the across the board point reductions that swept through Space Marines will also sweep through Chaos Marines and allow us a little more wiggle room to bring more bodies to the table.
Berserkers in a rhino are not bad at all. Rhinos are a real pain for most armies I have faced to deal with. My emperors children list has 4 lol, I just keep my troops safe turn 1 then disembark and assault their lines with my rhino wall, it really does work. It's tough for armies to kill a t7 10 wound 3+ model in a shooting phase, let alone multiple.
I know Rhinos are amazing right now but I really want to use my Khrybdis. Rhinos are flat out a better option right now and it hurts me inside to say that. I want to use my flying tank of doom damnit!
Astmeister wrote: Surprising that they don't do Alpha Legion tomorrow, although it is next on their list. And they kept to the list until now...
Alpha legion trickery.
Interesting that they didn't mention marks at all so far. I know they said on FB they wouldn't modify the statline anymore, but they have to do something, right?
I'm assuming no points leaks have been posted? I'm interested to see if Plague Marines have changed in point costs, as they said Plague Marines and Rubrics will be in the book, and also their new options.
Since it was Crystal clear again, I would love to see some posts about how the rumored Alpha Legion trait makes Fireraptors and Heldrakes super broken. Because it's super clear, you know.
Astmeister wrote: Surprising that they don't do Alpha Legion tomorrow, although it is next on their list. And they kept to the list until now...
Alpha legion trickery.
Interesting that they didn't mention marks at all so far. I know they said on FB they wouldn't modify the statline anymore, but they have to do something, right?
Marks are just keywords, I wouldn't expect them to do anything on their own. It makes more sense this way tbh, icons can grant buffs and you can even have multiple icons per god if they wanted. Having marks be a buff rather than a keyword isn't really needed.
Man, if Mortarion is really as mediocre as a GUO, i'll be so disappointed. I would LOVE to see Chaos get something on-par with Guilliman, if only to prove GW isn't only felating SM players.
As it stands, if they make him a super-melee Magnus, then he'll feel redundant, as Scabeiathrax is already essentially Nurgle-Knight in CC guy.
GUO's are mediocre because they don't have a beautifull and nice model like the Lords of Change and Bloodthirsters.
GW puts stats based in the model. When GUO receive a new and bigger model they'll reveice more wounds and more powerfull rules.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Man, if Mortarion is really as mediocre as a GUO, i'll be so disappointed. I would LOVE to see Chaos get something on-par with Guilliman, if only to prove GW isn't only felating SM players.
As it stands, if they make him a super-melee Magnus, then he'll feel redundant, as Scabeiathrax is already essentially Nurgle-Knight in CC guy.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Man, if Mortarion is really as mediocre as a GUO, i'll be so disappointed. I would LOVE to see Chaos get something on-par with Guilliman, if only to prove GW isn't only felating SM players.
As it stands, if they make him a super-melee Magnus, then he'll feel redundant, as Scabeiathrax is already essentially Nurgle-Knight in CC guy.
Well is magnus mediocre LOC?
But that isn't a 1:1 comparison, since it would be more like comparing Magnus to the FW named LoC, who IS incredible (and better than Magnus, albeit for 150pts more)
Tiberius501 wrote: I'm assuming no points leaks have been posted? I'm interested to see if Plague Marines have changed in point costs, as they said Plague Marines and Rubrics will be in the book, and also their new options.
I must have missed that note. That means DG players will be able to use the new entry with all the options for our PMs once C:CSM drops, right? Even tho we don't have our new models yet, new rules might help give PMs a shot in the arm that they desperately need. Altho, does that mean we could end up with a third iteration of the PM dataslate when CG ships in September (fourth if you count the DI slate and then the Index entry, even more when you factor in the other starter boxes)? That could get confusing.
Galas wrote: GUO's are mediocre because they don't have a beautifull and nice model like the Lords of Change and Bloodthirsters.
GW puts stats based in the model. When GUO receive a new and bigger model they'll reveice more wounds and more powerfull rules.
GUO are mediocre because they have to walk everywhere. It has nothing to do with the terribly over-designed and rubbish oversized models passing for LOCs and BTs.
Galas wrote: GUO's are mediocre because they don't have a beautifull and nice model like the Lords of Change and Bloodthirsters.
GW puts stats based in the model. When GUO receive a new and bigger model they'll reveice more wounds and more powerfull rules.
GUO are mediocre because they have to walk everywhere. It has nothing to do with the terribly over-designed and rubbish oversized models passing for LOCs and BTs.
And you're saying wings would make them good? No, No it would not.
Has nothing to do with models either. Glotkin is basically a GUO, and in the one nurgle picture.
Tiberius501 wrote: I'm assuming no points leaks have been posted? I'm interested to see if Plague Marines have changed in point costs, as they said Plague Marines and Rubrics will be in the book, and also their new options.
I must have missed that note. That means DG players will be able to use the new entry with all the options for our PMs once C:CSM drops, right? Even tho we don't have our new models yet, new rules might help give PMs a shot in the arm that they desperately need. Altho, does that mean we could end up with a third iteration of the PM dataslate when CG ships in September (fourth if you count the DI slate and then the Index entry, even more when you factor in the other starter boxes)? That could get confusing.
No actually, you can't run DG plague marines using the CSM book. We are stuck with the index till our codex drops.
Tiberius501 wrote: I'm assuming no points leaks have been posted? I'm interested to see if Plague Marines have changed in point costs, as they said Plague Marines and Rubrics will be in the book, and also their new options.
I must have missed that note. That means DG players will be able to use the new entry with all the options for our PMs once C:CSM drops, right? Even tho we don't have our new models yet, new rules might help give PMs a shot in the arm that they desperately need. Altho, does that mean we could end up with a third iteration of the PM dataslate when CG ships in September (fourth if you count the DI slate and then the Index entry, even more when you factor in the other starter boxes)? That could get confusing.
No actually, you can't run DG plague marines using the CSM book. We are stuck with the index till our codex drops.
Yeah, we probably won't be able to use the entry from the CSM codex for the PM, but I know GW said they'd be in there as elites, as an answer on the Facebook page to someone in the comments below the Emperor's Children legion rules.
"Hi Jack - Cult Marines are still in the codex. Plague Marines serve (albeit in limited numbers) in warbands across the Galaxy, while many an enterprising Thousand Sons Sorcerer will lend his strength to a Chaos Warband. The Black Legion in particular has loads of them."
I don't mind if I don't get to use them, I'm just keen to see any changes and/or additions, as they'll be pretty much what we'll be getting in our full codex.
Galas wrote: GUO's are mediocre because they don't have a beautifull and nice model like the Lords of Change and Bloodthirsters.
GW puts stats based in the model. When GUO receive a new and bigger model they'll reveice more wounds and more powerfull rules.
GUO are mediocre because they have to walk everywhere. It has nothing to do with the terribly over-designed and rubbish oversized models passing for LOCs and BTs.
And you're saying wings would make them good? No, No it would not.
Has nothing to do with models either. Glotkin is basically a GUO, and in the one nurgle picture.
It has everything to do with the model. It's not coincidence that the two greater daemons with new kits happen to have better stat lines, even the physically weakest having a better one.
I'd imagine that they didn't feel right giving a great unclean one a bigger stats line for wounds etc. Than a lord of change when it barely reaches its waist.
Hot dang, that Black Legion Trait just makes me want to run a two Spearhead detachments with a crap ton of 4x Plasma (Combi-Plasma on Champion if they can) in Rhinos and spam Plasma shots at everything. Take a couple squads of bog standard Chaos Marines for holding objectives and just go to town.
I don't play Chaos, but depending on how the Black Legion look I may get rid of my Tallarn for them.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Hot dang, that Black Legion Trait just makes me want to run a two Spearhead detachments with a crap ton of 4x Plasma (Combi-Plasma on Champion if they can) in Rhinos and spam Plasma shots at everything. Take a couple squads of bog standard Chaos Marines for holding objectives and just go to town.
I don't play Chaos, but depending on how the Black Legion look I may get rid of my Tallarn for them.
... honestly, I kinda like what they did with the obliterator.
The effect is unique, yes. It appears somewhat chaotic, yes. Why it isn't d3 shots on top of it, who knows.
I just hate it, because obliterators are not shooting random demonic vomit but deliberately chosen weapons befitting the intended victim. And why such a huge blobb of metal still runs at T4 is a mystery.
Maybe I missed something, but the Black Legion trait is pure trash in my point of view. Which are the possible applications? An assault plasmagun wont be able to duplicate the shots, and you still get the-1 to hit
DarklyDreaming wrote: Maybe I missed something, but the Black Legion trait is pure trash in my point of view. Which are the possible applications? An assault plasmagun wont be able to duplicate the shots, and you still get the-1 to hit
It's hardly trash. It's flexibility. Even if you have to advance, you're still able to shoot at a certain extent, when others wouldn't be able to. I'd say it's pretty awesome
NH Gunsmith wrote: Hot dang, that Black Legion Trait just makes me want to run a two Spearhead detachments with a crap ton of 4x Plasma (Combi-Plasma on Champion if they can) in Rhinos and spam Plasma shots at everything. Take a couple squads of bog standard Chaos Marines for holding objectives and just go to town.
I don't play Chaos, but depending on how the Black Legion look I may get rid of my Tallarn for them.
I foresee a lot of exploding chaos
Probably, but you do not have to use the overcharged shots. And I would recommend not to, if you are getting -1 to hit.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Hot dang, that Black Legion Trait just makes me want to run a two Spearhead detachments with a crap ton of 4x Plasma (Combi-Plasma on Champion if they can) in Rhinos and spam Plasma shots at everything. Take a couple squads of bog standard Chaos Marines for holding objectives and just go to town.
I don't play Chaos, but depending on how the Black Legion look I may get rid of my Tallarn for them.
I foresee a lot of exploding chaos
Probably, but you do not have to use the overcharged shots. And I would recommend not to, if you are getting -1 to hit.
True, I'm used to fighting Primaris now so I overcharge for days haha
Black Legion trait is weird. You get to convert your rapid fire to assault but you only get the base single shot at 24". It's a niche ability that'll give you one more round of shooting if you want to advance your foot-slogging infantry turn one. That's pretty much it. From turn 2 you're mostly gonna be in rapid fire or charge range so you won't need this ability any more. Though cultists could run around being gnats plinking at infantry with their BB guns. It's hardly a strong trait though. I'd like to see it expanded to allow for the double tap at half range. It's siomply worded wrong. The way it's worded it has to be single shot only, but if they worded it "rapid fire *counts as* assault" then you could still get your double tap and advance move. But since when has GW been able to wor rules correctly?
What's this about Alpha Legion? I don't do FB. Have they abandoned the AL reveal today? I've been waiting for this all week....
I'm not saying that the Black Legion's trait is not that impressive, particularly compared to a lot of other legions. But we have to consider the chapter trait as part of a constellation of bonuses, including stratagems, relics, and, most importantly for Black Legion, unit accessibility.
So it seems to me entirely reasonable that Black Legion has a less impressive legion trait, given that it has access to a greater variety of troops, and, because of that, a greater variety of stratagems. I'm not saying that that will save them, but I wouldn't necessary catastrophise too much yet.
TonyH122 wrote: I'm not saying that the Black Legion's trait is not that impressive, particularly compared to a lot of other legions. But we have to consider the chapter trait as part of a constellation of bonuses, including stratagems, relics, and, most importantly for Black Legion, unit accessibility.
So it seems to me entirely reasonable that Black Legion has a less impressive legion trait, given that it has access to a greater variety of troops, and, because of that, a greater variety of stratagems. I'm not saying that that will save them, but I wouldn't necessary catastrophise too much yet.
But it's not the most impressive trait.
I think appart from the Cult Legions (WE, EC, TS, DG), all the other Legions will have access to all troops. You can play Alpha Legion Noise Marines or Night Lords Berzerkers without a problem. So this is not really something the BL will have specifically going for them.
On the other hand it is much more fluffy for BL than for the other Legions.
godardc wrote: So, how many attack does a squad of 8 zerkers has ?
+1 for chainsword
+1 for assaulting this turn
And they fight 3 times ?
They fight twice. If you spend 3 command points, ONE unit can fight a third time at the end of the fight phase.
For the command point cost, depending what other stratagems may be of value in the codex, its lack luster to me.
I'm not really sure what is going to survive after two rounds of attacking already that Morale won't take care of for you at the end of it. Just seems very situational.
For the command point cost, depending what other stratagems may be of value in the codex, its lack luster to me.
I'm not really sure what is going to survive after two rounds of attacking already that Morale won't take care of for you at the end of it. Just seems very situational.
Unless of course it ends up winning the game. It is an option. Its expensive cp wise but could be used to really turn the tide, killing enemy warlord and retinue as well as wiing out unit that was with them defending an objective. 2 rounds of attacking may not kill the toughest opponents, this gives you the opportunity to really lay the smack down if needed.
DarklyDreaming wrote: Maybe I missed something, but the Black Legion trait is pure trash in my point of view. Which are the possible applications? An assault plasmagun wont be able to duplicate the shots, and you still get the-1 to hit
Your playing wrong if your using it when your already in range. An assault 1 shot is better then no shot which is the bonus of the trait, if I am out of range after a normal 6" move I can at least advance into range and still be effective, it's also nothing to scoff at in objective games where you will advance often just to get onto one, this again lets you do something.
DarklyDreaming wrote: Maybe I missed something, but the Black Legion trait is pure trash in my point of view. Which are the possible applications? An assault plasmagun wont be able to duplicate the shots, and you still get the-1 to hit
Your playing wrong if your using it when your already in range. An assault 1 shot is better then no shot which is the bonus of the trait, if I am out of range after a normal 6" move I can at least advance into range and still be effective, it's also nothing to scoff at in objective games where you will advance often just to get onto one, this again lets you do something.
The other use is when advancing to set up assaults or go for o jectives, you still have some firepower rather than giving it up entirely.
The Black Legion stuff seems really solid across the board - although perhaps wasted on a few too many of the units (i.e. 5-man squads of any type are wasted with bonus leadership).
Black Legion trait looks okey to me, not awesome, but certainly not bad. Assault 24" Non-overcharged plasma gun is nice, especially if the other option is that you cant make it to firing range at all. Likewise with offensive melee armies you can keep falling backwards and still keep on shooting somewhat effectively.
Other interesting point about the article is this paragraph:
"It’s worth noting that with the new Chaos Space Marines codex, Noise Marines, Plague Marines, Berzerkers and Rubric Marines are available to a much wider range of Chaos Legions. The Black Legion has always been renowned for bringing together Chaos Space Marines from far and wide in its warbands, and any of the “cult marines” make for a strong choice in the army. Rubric Marines are a particularly potent pick, able to fire their armour-piercing inferno boltguns on the move thanks to Black Crusaders."
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/04/legion-focus-black-legion-aug4gw-homepage-post-2/
I think they are hinting that Cult troops won't be <Thousands Sons>, <World Eaters>, <Emperors Children>, <Death Guard> any more respectively?
This would be awesome change. I would consider adding Night Lords Noise Marines, although a bit different looking, Night Lords blasting terrorizing sounds and voices, while still remaining midnight clad in NL colorings and normal armors also.
EDIT: Okey I had read wrong and even current index allows <Legion> khorne berserkers, noise marines etc.
I think they are hinting that Cult troops won't be <Thousands Sons>, <World Eaters>, <Emperors Children>, <Death Guard> any more respectively?
This would be awesome change. I would consider adding Night Lords Noise Marines, although a bit different looking, Night Lords blasting terrorizing sounds and voices, while still remaining midnight clad in NL colorings and normal armors also.
They never have been and already aren't in the index; you can take cult troops in any legion, except for the ones who are locked to specific god keywords.
Hmmm... Alpha Legion Khorne Berzerkers infiltrating with -1 to hit on shooting, when they are further than 12 inch away.
That could be potentially awesome!
Rydria wrote: Presiance on a unit with an icon of excess in range of a BL warlord for that 3+ Death to the false emperor.
Nope, the wording on both says it triggers on a 5+ rather then a 6+ meaning that they don't stick. 4+ is the max. Whats great however is that you can stack it with MoK now so you have +1 attack to start after a charge.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Astmeister wrote: Hmmm... Alpha Legion Khorne Berzerkers infiltrating with -1 to hit on shooting, when they are further than 12 inch away.
That could be potentially awesome!
Those two things don't really work together though lol. You ideally will always have them inside 12" but thats still pretty great.
I'm wondering if they bumped BL and WB further up the order because of the hate they've been getting from the leaks? Maybe GW wants us to look at them for longer so they can prepare their day 1 DLC FAQ to adjust the rules that aren't working right. We pretty much know what the AL trait and stratagem are going to be and it's pretty much been agreed that the RG who share the same are top tier of the chapter tactics.
So Black Crusaders doesn't work as GW think it works. It's clear they think they're giving BL Rapid Fire weapon they can shoot after advancing, but they're not. They mention Rapid Fire 2 because they think that's how bolters and plasmaguns work, but they don't - they're Rapid Fire 1. It's pretty obvious that they have different individuals or teams working on different parts of the rules and that none of them really know how their game works. You can see this in the guys that chair their live streams, they don't know the rules or how the game works either. By just saying that Rapid Fire weapons operate as Assault with that trait it negates the advantage of the Rapid Fire weapon the double shots at half range. To get those extra shots you have to DOUBLE the Rapid Fire number. You can't just replace the Rapid Fire rule with the Assault rule. The way the article is worded it suggests CSM's advancing are gonna be laying down a hail of fire, but they're not. It should just say that units with the rule can fire their Rapid Fire weapons even if they advanced. Like the rules are worded for advancing and charging, or the rules for falling back and firing like UM get. GW clearly has a problem with the delivery of rules and gameplay from their heads and onto the table.
Another issue that's now raised is what the hell is the point of an Icon of Excess now in BL armies? Do we just ignore this now (kind of weird that only one icon gets to be ignored) or does it mean the icon is getting changed, thus depriving EC of one of their better means of boosting their CC capability? Seems pretty poor in this case. It's not a very strong warlord trait, maybe a +1 to hit in melee bubble would have been better? Ripping a rule straight from another chaos source to mitigate your power fists never getting exploding attacks is pretty crappy. It's one thing copying the rules from loyalists where appropriate, but ripping them straight from other sources in your own codex and invalidating that thing in the process is bad. Really bad.
Honestly, was anyone going to use that icon anyways? Or any of them except khorne? Those are all fairly situational bonuses even for the minor 10 point price tag. You really wanna drop 50-100 points on an upgrade that literally does nothing against half the armies in the game?
Still, considering the warlord trait is an aura and you can't cram that many models in range, it's not really that much more useless for BL compared to everyone else.
As for the advancing and shoot ability, I see some minor uses but nothing amazing. It really does work best for cult units, noise marines running barebones as a melee troop or mixed with spare bodies can advance and fire everything, plague marines with double blight launchers can get some firepower from the rest of the squad, rubrics appreciate it and are one of the few units who can really benefit from the LD bonus.
... honestly, I kinda like what they did with the obliterator.
The effect is unique, yes. It appears somewhat chaotic, yes. Why it isn't d3 shots on top of it, who knows.
I just hate it, because obliterators are not shooting random demonic vomit but deliberately chosen weapons befitting the intended victim. And why such a huge blobb of metal still runs at T4 is a mystery.
+1. I have no idea why they went from guys who picked the right tool for the job, to that mess. A simple unique version of a missile launcher's frag vs. krak choices would have been plenty to retain the idea of specialists choosing their weapons, if the idea was to make it so you didn't need to choose from like a dozen options.
To me, random stats doesn't suggest effectiveness.
SilverAlien wrote: Honestly, was anyone going to use that icon anyways? Or any of them except khorne? Those are all fairly situational bonuses even for the minor 10 point price tag. You really wanna drop 50-100 points on an upgrade that literally does nothing against half the armies in the game?
Still, considering the warlord trait is an aura and you can't cram that many models in range, it's not really that much more useless for BL compared to everyone else.
As for the advancing and shoot ability, I see some minor uses but nothing amazing. It really does work best for cult units, noise marines running barebones as a melee troop or mixed with spare bodies can advance and fire everything, plague marines with double blight launchers can get some firepower from the rest of the squad, rubrics appreciate it and are one of the few units who can really benefit from the LD bonus.
Stacked horizontal firing lines with just a model or two inside the bubble would mean you could get quite a lot of squads involved with that bubble.
The trait really should have been advance and still shoot (with stacked penalties, so -2 to hit for heavy weapons). Even better would have been advance and shoot, or advance and charge to show their tactical flexibility depending upon the situation. Heck, it could have been once per game for each, as most armies in an objective game are going to have to move towards each other most of the time anyway, you won't really have a need to use it more than once each, especially if you are using a sort of horde get up that it is being implied BL should use.
... honestly, I kinda like what they did with the obliterator.
The effect is unique, yes. It appears somewhat chaotic, yes. Why it isn't d3 shots on top of it, who knows.
I just hate it, because obliterators are not shooting random demonic vomit but deliberately chosen weapons befitting the intended victim. And why such a huge blobb of metal still runs at T4 is a mystery.
+1. I have no idea why they went from guys who picked the right tool for the job, to that mess. A simple unique version of a missile launcher's frag vs. krak choices would have been plenty to retain the idea of specialists choosing their weapons, if the idea was to make it so you didn't need to choose from like a dozen options.
To me, random stats doesn't suggest effectiveness.
I'd probably go for three, an anti infantry, anti armour and hedge your bets option. That still represents a simplification from the huge long list they had, gives them broadly the same utility and doesn't break anything I can think.
That said, D3 isn't the spikiest range of random, so I'm not really bothered about the raw output so much as the retention of unnecessary dice rolls and the odd occasion where the dice roll will work against the specific circumstances to screw you over which the unit doesn't really need (it's not an Ork unit, nor a cheap disposable one now you can't buy them in singles.)
... honestly, I kinda like what they did with the obliterator.
The effect is unique, yes. It appears somewhat chaotic, yes. Why it isn't d3 shots on top of it, who knows.
I just hate it, because obliterators are not shooting random demonic vomit but deliberately chosen weapons befitting the intended victim. And why such a huge blobb of metal still runs at T4 is a mystery.
+1. I have no idea why they went from guys who picked the right tool for the job, to that mess. A simple unique version of a missile launcher's frag vs. krak choices would have been plenty to retain the idea of specialists choosing their weapons, if the idea was to make it so you didn't need to choose from like a dozen options.
To me, random stats doesn't suggest effectiveness.
I've posted this before, but the ability to pick weapons for Obliterators was overrated, simply because you only ever used 3 or 4 of the profiles because of how game mechanics worked. So at most with each weapon you'd get 2-3 shots. Nah not good.
Now, the profile for the Fleshmetal Gun isn't too bad at its worst, but the Obliterator needs 4 shots to even be worth it.
youtubers like winter SEO posted a review of the SM codex the day of the preorder, is there a possibility we can get some info tomorrow morning as well?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I noticed that you were upset cs the WE and AL stratagems are the same as the SM ones, but the BL and Khorne ones are a copy as well. Which is not such a shame imho considering that 24 stratagems are a lot.
Strategems leaked:
1CP - Character does d3 mortal wounds with a bolter weapon
1CP - Give a unit a Mark of Chaos
1CP - Chaos Boon, 2 is Spawn, 12 is Daemon Prince, 7 choose a bonus, 4 is +3" to move characteristic, 9 +1 to all saves
1CP - Tzeentch can do another power
1CP - Choose a different psychic power
1CP - +1 to wound for a unit of infantry, bikers (not renegade units)
1CP - A Daemon Engine can re-roll to hit and wound for a phase
2CP - A unit of cultists on the board can re-deploy via deep strike within 6" of a board edge
1CP - Linebreaker Bombardment
1CP - Killshot (noice)
1CP - Flakk missile
~CP - A Helbrute can fire twice if it doesn’t move
1CP/3CP - extra Artifacts
1CP - Heretic vehicle ignores penelties for assault/heavy weapons
Alpha Legion get the RavenGuard strategem
Artifacts:
Axe of Blind Fury, Murder sword and Black Mace are back + a load more artifacts.
Psychic Powers:
DeathHex - WC 8, 12" an enemy unit can't take invul saves.
~ - roll d6, if higher than a models toughness they take d3 mortal wounds
Warlord Traits:
Alpha Legion WLT is, when your Warlord dies another character becomes your Warlord and gains a new Warlord trait. No StW when you kill the warlord the first time.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Hot dang, that Black Legion Trait just makes me want to run a two Spearhead detachments with a crap ton of 4x Plasma (Combi-Plasma on Champion if they can) in Rhinos and spam Plasma shots at everything. Take a couple squads of bog standard Chaos Marines for holding objectives and just go to town.
I don't play Chaos, but depending on how the Black Legion look I may get rid of my Tallarn for them.
Alpha legion WLT is fluffy but kinda meh. Kinda sad we aren't seeing a way to upgrade characters like the chapter master stratagem. That's one that would've helped a lot for anyone not playing black legion.
Alpha Legion Warlord Trait is beautifull. To play it the correct way you need to go with a printed list to your opponent and a printed paper where it specifies that you are actually playing Alpha Legion.
Your army must be painted another colour, and you don't reveal your Legion untill he kill your warlord!
SilverAlien wrote: Alpha legion WLT is fluffy but kinda meh. Kinda sad we aren't seeing a way to upgrade characters like the chapter master stratagem. That's one that would've helped a lot for anyone not playing black legion.
That's not all the strategems I think, there's still hope.
To explain, The material has been evolving with each edition, along with the backstory, as the editions continue, the timeline has finally moved forward to the present 41+ point.
The way in which it has been handled in the new edition is pretty good. And for someone who developed a genuine hate on for GW, it is hard to admit.
Of course, I'm not going to go out thee and jump on the Space Marine bandwagon, but I did pick up a snack box of those Poxwalkers, and am watching the trade page here for the Death Guard.
Hate to say it, but it is going to be a little more reserved in this iteration, as I continue to play more Skirmish level, and RPG development of an army, as they grow on the tabletop.
As of now, Nu 40K is beginning with Hieronymus Harkonnen in 40K form, followed by a gaglegak of cultists, and the Hand of the Allfather, a nurgle champion that I've had modeled up for the occasion, back in the day, and Sprite, a chaos Spawn that decided to show up after one of the early games I played with The crew.
As a new concept of playing, I get more enjoyment in developing the army from the ground up in a "What if this was going on in the RPG universe."
Additionally, I am going to be working on the representations for the RPG characters for Black Crusade, which I hope to be able to get in on a local group and get the game started up in the shop. With the evolution of the skirmish game, it makes it easy to get the RPG/ tabletop relationship going a little better then it worked in the past.
So, is it safe to assume we wont be seeing any new CSM models with the codex since this would be RIGHT NOW? I've been shelving my IW for a few years waiting for a model upgrade before buying termies and now I guess I could dust them off and finish the force. No termies seem to be incoming.
matphat wrote: So, is it safe to assume we wont be seeing any new CSM models with the codex since this would be RIGHT NOW? I've been shelving my IW for a few years waiting for a model upgrade before buying termies and now I guess I could dust them off and finish the force. No termies seem to be incoming.
I expect more chaos incoming, if GW does what they always do with 40K edition releases.
Last edition, IIRC, it was Khorn. lots and lots of skull covered Khorn. THIS time it will be the snotty legions. everyone else will be intermixed in there.
If you go by that as a guidepost, You are probably going to see a fat release around the holidays.
Cult troops allowed in Undivided legions would give me the right excuse to keep using the old metal Plague Marines on my Night Lords army that i have so many of! My own headcannon fluff has been a combined campaign of those two legions due to the fact that their Primarchs kinda didnt hate eachother.
Then I just use the superior Plague Marines for Death Guard tm
Nightlord1987 wrote: Cult troops allowed in Undivided legions would give me the right excuse to keep using the old metal Plague Marines on my Night Lords army that i have so many of! My own headcannon fluff has been a combined campaign of those two legions due to the fact that their Primarchs kinda didnt hate eachother.
Then I just use the superior Plague Marines for Death Guard tm
That sounds about right, and when the time cones, just mix them in with the other squads. Different sized figures seems to be the goal that GW is attempting.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Cult troops allowed in Undivided legions would give me the right excuse to keep using the old metal Plague Marines on my Night Lords army that i have so many of! My own headcannon fluff has been a combined campaign of those two legions due to the fact that their Primarchs kinda didnt hate eachother.
Then I just use the superior Plague Marines for Death Guard tm
That sounds about right, and when the time cones, just mix them in with the other squads. Different sized figures seems to be the goal that GW is attempting.
I have an amazing Guard army of GI Joes if that is the case! And He Man daemon princes! With Transformer daemon engines.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Cult troops allowed in Undivided legions would give me the right excuse to keep using the old metal Plague Marines on my Night Lords army that i have so many of! My own headcannon fluff has been a combined campaign of those two legions due to the fact that their Primarchs kinda didnt hate eachother.
Then I just use the superior Plague Marines for Death Guard tm
That sounds about right, and when the time cones, just mix them in with the other squads. Different sized figures seems to be the goal that GW is attempting.
I have an amazing Guard army of GI Joes if that is the case! And He Man daemon princes! With Transformer daemon engines.
I take it that you haven't seen Guliman in the flesh, yet?
You honestly have missed a great chance to be snarky with the irony of your own post.
Just watched most of the linked video. The youtuber comments about not seeing any new models either in picture or stat form (excluding models obviously brought over from the demon codex).
I saw that normal chaos marines can exchange their boltguns for chainswords but I didn't see an option to have all three. I couldn't make out what the chosen had though in that regard.
I have to say that the Time of Ending and now this CSM codex really are a missed opportunity for GW to come out with a new kickass Abaddon model. I know they kinda sorta came out with one in 4th with the chaos lord in that you can effectively make a plastic abby but a bigger, new model would have been appreciated.
Virtually every csm codex after 3.5 is a missed opportunity. It's as if they have no ideas for the main protagonist of the setting.
I disagree. Chaos players overall on dakka are consistently the most half glass empty group despite consistently getting new models and updates in 6th/7th. There are big upsides (Legion rules finally after over a decade! not sure if this is new but in 5th they got generic demons and now have proper cult specific demons!) but a slew of new model releases isn't one of them. That said... there are at least new plague marine models as well as more new plague stuff coming soon that we know of.
Slaanesh daemon prince with duel talons and intoxicating elixir seems really good 8 strength 8 attacks at -2ap 2 damage is ridiculously choppy, then give it the +1 wound and 6+ FNP warlord trait and then give it the 5+ feel no pain psychic power to get an absolute beastly duelist with 9 wounds. Alternatively you could go all in on the attacking and give it the emperor's children warlord trait or the +1 attack warlord trait.
Nightlord1987 wrote: Cult troops allowed in Undivided legions would give me the right excuse to keep using the old metal Plague Marines on my Night Lords army that i have so many of! My own headcannon fluff has been a combined campaign of those two legions due to the fact that their Primarchs kinda didnt hate eachother.
Then I just use the superior Plague Marines for Death Guard tm
That sounds about right, and when the time cones, just mix them in with the other squads. Different sized figures seems to be the goal that GW is attempting.
I have an amazing Guard army of GI Joes if that is the case! And He Man daemon princes! With Transformer daemon engines.
I take it that you haven't seen Guliman in the flesh, yet?
You honestly have missed a great chance to be snarky with the irony of your own post.
I was trying to be snarky and ironic without being over the top. Miscue. My toy story can't wait to be told.
Take aways from the video, we lost a ton of unit entries. Lords, sorcerors on bikes, gone. Jugger lords, gone. Palaquins, disxs and steeds, gone, I also didn't see jump pack characters.
Now on the plus side, we somehow managed to keep all the crap in the gear section that isn't available in any of the boxes. Terminator combi plasma is still in as well as power swords for those termies lol.
Oblits have 4 shots now.
Exalted champion is in now and has an aura that lets you reroll failed to wound rolls in the fight phase within 6. This guy and a dark aopstle will make berserkers very efficient.
I have mixed feeling on the relics. Murder sword is nuts now IMO. Pick an enemy character at the games start, whenever you attack that model with the murder sword your hits automatically cause mortal wounds lol. You could send a tricked out khorne lord into Bobby G and seriously mess him up, use a demon round CP and you could solo him lol. The rest are pretty meh. Ace of blind fury is still in and also strong, black mace is there but n=both are worse.
Red Corsair wrote: Take aways from the video, we lost a ton of unit entries. Lords, sorcerors on bikes, gone. Jugger lords, gone. Palaquins, disxs and steeds, gone, I also didn't see jump pack characters.
Now on the plus side, we somehow managed to keep all the crap in the gear section that isn't available in any of the boxes. Terminator combi plasma is still in as well as power swords for those termies lol.
Oblits have 4 shots now.
Exalted champion is in now and has an aura that lets you reroll failed to wound rolls in the fight phase within 6. This guy and a dark aopstle will make berserkers very efficient.
I have mixed feeling on the relics. Murder sword is nuts now IMO. Pick an enemy character at the games start, whenever you attack that model with the murder sword your hits automatically cause mortal wounds lol. You could send a tricked out khorne lord into Bobby G and seriously mess him up, use a demon round CP and you could solo him lol. The rest are pretty meh. Ace of blind fury is still in and also strong, black mace is there but n=both are worse.
Tons more in that video.
Sorcs and lords can take jump packs. The psychic powers is where we really lucked out, IMO. And the black mace is absolutely amazing
Eldarain wrote: Actually excited to see the attempt at making the Word Bearers article enticing.
The warlord trait is the only thing I see they could even pretend is worthwhile. And, tbf, it is a good warlord trait for a dark apostle in particular.
Eldarain wrote: Actually excited to see the attempt at making the Word Bearers article enticing.
The warlord trait is the only thing I see they could even pretend is worthwhile. And, tbf, it is a good warlord trait for a dark apostle in particular.
I could see them using the re-roll morale saves to sell word bearers as the Legion to pick if you want to run large blobs.
if you wanted to run a army using large blobs of cultists and or chaos space marines (who can be taken in squads of 20, not that anyone ever does
I'm not saying this is GOOD, but I could see that being the best use for Word bearers.
Eldarain wrote: Actually excited to see the attempt at making the Word Bearers article enticing.
The warlord trait is the only thing I see they could even pretend is worthwhile. And, tbf, it is a good warlord trait for a dark apostle in particular.
I could see them using the re-roll morale saves to sell word bearers as the Legion to pick if you want to run large blobs.
if you wanted to run a army using large blobs of cultists and or chaos space marines (who can be taken in squads of 20, not that anyone ever does
I'm not saying this is GOOD, but I could see that being the best use for Word bearers.
It's just so bad. With the offensive power out there the only blobs worth running are immune to morale. re-rolling when you are taking substantial morale losses regardless is just awful.
Plaguebearer, Bloodletters, and Daemonettes all reduced to 7 pts.
Pink Horrors 8 pts, Blue Horrors 5 pts, Brimstones 3 pts.
Noise Marines 15pts, Sonic Blaster still 4 pts.
Melionodr wrote: If I saw it correctly plaguebearers and Horrors got cheaper!
Horrors are 8/5/3, rather than their current 10/5/2. I don't think that will convince anyone to run a pink but shrug.
I'm not really sure what their aim was with including the daemon troops in the CSM codex. You can't really use them since you lose all of your Legion bonuses by including them. If they were given the same clause as the Fallen where they don't affect your ability to get Legion bonuses then it would have been fine.
Red Corsair wrote: Take aways from the video, we lost a ton of unit entries. Lords, sorcerors on bikes, gone. Jugger lords, gone. Palaquins, disxs and steeds, gone, I also didn't see jump pack characters.
Now on the plus side, we somehow managed to keep all the crap in the gear section that isn't available in any of the boxes. Terminator combi plasma is still in as well as power swords for those termies lol.
Oblits have 4 shots now.
Exalted champion is in now and has an aura that lets you reroll failed to wound rolls in the fight phase within 6. This guy and a dark aopstle will make berserkers very efficient.
I have mixed feeling on the relics. Murder sword is nuts now IMO. Pick an enemy character at the games start, whenever you attack that model with the murder sword your hits automatically cause mortal wounds lol. You could send a tricked out khorne lord into Bobby G and seriously mess him up, use a demon round CP and you could solo him lol. The rest are pretty meh. Ace of blind fury is still in and also strong, black mace is there but n=both are worse.
Tons more in that video.
Hoo boy. The cull happened but not as we expected. We kept our armoury and somehow kept Terminator combi-plasma and power swords but lost Khorne Juggerlords? Do GW realise they've never produced Terminator combi-plasma but DID produce a Jugger Lord from 2nd ed and some from RT era as well? Characters on bikes - to be expected after the SM cull but a bit disappointed - especially when you consider Doomrider is a great Slaaneshi Lord on Bike.
Palanquin being gone makes me sad. Discs and Steeds are sad - Discs are a slap in the face to Tzeentch players especially as Discs are so available for conversion purpose - certainly more so than fething Combi-Plasma for Terminators
Exalted Champion is our Lieutenant equivalent. Ok. When are we getting an Ancient equivalent then?
Also - Daemons are in the book? What?
Why do we have Daemons in our book? Couldn't they have FAQ'd the points drop and...I dunno...actually given us rules that they've produced models for (Juggerlords, Palanquins and Discs please)?
Red Corsair wrote: Take aways from the video, we lost a ton of unit entries. Lords, sorcerors on bikes, gone. Jugger lords, gone. Palaquins, disxs and steeds, gone, I also didn't see jump pack characters.
Now on the plus side, we somehow managed to keep all the crap in the gear section that isn't available in any of the boxes. Terminator combi plasma is still in as well as power swords for those termies lol.
Oblits have 4 shots now.
Exalted champion is in now and has an aura that lets you reroll failed to wound rolls in the fight phase within 6. This guy and a dark aopstle will make berserkers very efficient.
I have mixed feeling on the relics. Murder sword is nuts now IMO. Pick an enemy character at the games start, whenever you attack that model with the murder sword your hits automatically cause mortal wounds lol. You could send a tricked out khorne lord into Bobby G and seriously mess him up, use a demon round CP and you could solo him lol. The rest are pretty meh. Ace of blind fury is still in and also strong, black mace is there but n=both are worse.
Tons more in that video.
Hoo boy. The cull happened but not as we expected. We kept our armoury and somehow kept Terminator combi-plasma and power swords but lost Khorne Juggerlords? Do GW realise they've never produced Terminator combi-plasma but DID produce a Jugger Lord from 2nd ed and some from RT era as well? Characters on bikes - to be expected after the SM cull but a bit disappointed - especially when you consider Doomrider is a great Slaaneshi Lord on Bike.
Palanquin being gone makes me sad. Discs and Steeds are sad - Discs are a slap in the face to Tzeentch players especially as Discs are so available for conversion purpose - certainly more so than fething Combi-Plasma for Terminators
Exalted Champion is our Lieutenant equivalent. Ok. When are we getting an Ancient equivalent then?
Also - Daemons are in the book? What?
Why do we have Daemons in our book? Couldn't they have FAQ'd the points drop and...I dunno...actually given us rules that they've produced models for (Juggerlords, Palanquins and Discs please)?
The 4 Daemon units also lack Daemon as a faction keyword, the only have it has a regular keyword.
I suppose they're their for summoning? (Since with Dark Pact being the Word Bearer's stratagem GW maybe have decided to put some summonable units in the codex for new players).
that's a hell of a lot of options for Plague Marines, from what I was able to squint at:
- 2 plague marines can get plague spewer, plague butcher, blight launcher or special weapons
- ANY plague marine can swap bolter for bubonic axe or another Plague Knife
- Up to two may replace bolter for Bubonic Axe or Mace of Contagion
- Up to two may replace bolter for Bubonic Axe or Flail of Corruption
- One Plague Marine can take the Icon of Despair
some of them are a little redundant (Any marine can replace bolter with bubonic axe *and* two plague marines may replace bolter for bubonic axe?) but it's interesting to see how melee focused they've made the options
Melionodr wrote: If I saw it correctly plaguebearers and Horrors got cheaper!
Horrors are 8/5/3, rather than their current 10/5/2. I don't think that will convince anyone to run a pink but shrug.
I'm not really sure what their aim was with including the daemon troops in the CSM codex. You can't really use them since you lose all of your Legion bonuses by including them. If they were given the same clause as the Fallen where they don't affect your ability to get Legion bonuses then it would have been fine.
As far as I could tell, you can keep your legion tactics and use the daemon troops.
The only requirement for legion tactics is that all units in the detachment are from the same legion. Daemons don't have legions. If you have four units of Black Legion terminators and one unit of bloodletters, you get black legion tactics. If you have four units of black legion terminators, one unit of bloodletters, and one unit of alpha legion havocs, you do not get legion tactics.
I agree it's kind of odd to have the troops in the book, but you can take them in the same detachment and still get legion tactics.
At least Dinobots get a boost via the stratagem that lets them reroll all failed and wound rolls. Might be worth taking, especially when you can give the maulerfiend +1S and +2attacks with the psychic power.
TonyH122 wrote: And, most exciting, it looks like Defilers have gone down, with no change to its stats. Guys, it's gone down by 60 points!!!
Indeed, also, Maulerfiends look to have gotten a 9 point reduction as well. And Warpsmiths are down a hefty 33 points? Might become well worth their points then...
So anyone else completely un-impressed with the CSM codex esp when compared to SM and GK codex?
I mean it looks like almost all copy and paste and very little actual new content/changes.
Warlord traits for the most part suck esp when compared to SM/GK, and even even for CP abilities think we got the short end on options.
Legion traits for some legions are extremely weak, looking specifically at WB I mean they basically only got a trait all marines get.....ummm, ya thats a joke right.
Even on special gear---the AL chainsword is one any marine chapter can take.....so ya the rules writer needs fired and someone that can actually write good, decent, new rules maybe hired.
The only option in the book that is looking tasty is the new plague marine options--tons more stuff, as you can go shooty or assault with plague marine squads now, however even then they didnt allow the good melee wpns to go on the SGT weakening their capability to do good damage.
chaos45 wrote: So anyone else completely un-impressed with the CSM codex esp when compared to SM and GK codex?
Some things do strike me as weak. We lack access to any chapter master equivalent or a stratagem to upgrade chaos lords' auras. Immunity to morale is IW trait rather than generic. The fact two of our traits (BL and one generic) only trigger on imperium is also annoying in the extreme. Havocs are still slightly weaker devastators when used for heavy weapons. Still haven't been given a good way to deal with characters as the designers seem to be under the delusion that melee/short range abilities are sufficient for character removal this edition (though GK share this issue).
Still though, this is leagues better than it has been before. The morale thing is annoying but still less of an issue than ever before (though if every other army gets a generic warlord trait of that variety). Being tailored against imperium isn't so bad when imperium is half the game. We got a LT equivalent so that's good.
The main issues are ones that are always going to be an issue, such as warlord traits, relics, and even some stratagems being predominantly geared towards hero hammer rather than effective for multiplication.
At least Obliterators doubled their shots and remained the same price. I wish I could say the same for my Centurions (went up 15 pts in an already overpriced model).
Chaos still seems to have some pretty good stuff. Hopefully a better leaks will come out.
that would be awesome.
