Preorder: August 5th
Release: August 12th

Prices: see WD below





* Updates *

Point costs



http://i.4cdn.org/tg/1502196298730.png

Mazzyx wrote:
Point breakdown on miniwargaming review. Lots of down.

Bikers- 29 [25?] pts (-2 pts per model)
Cultist- 4 pts (-1 pt)
Lord in termi-105 pts
Pred-90 pts
Vindi-135 pts
Defiler-152 (60ish pt decrease)
Lord of Skulls-365 (100 pts less)
Maulerfiend-140 (9pts less)
Mutliators-50 pts
Noise Marines-15 pts (1 per guy)
Plagues-19 pts (2 per model)
Warpsmith-45 pts(-33 pts)
Abbadon-240 (-13 pts)
Kharne-160 (-13 pts)
Bloodletters/Daemonettes-7 pts (-2 per model)
Horrors-
Blue no change
brimstone-3 pts (+1)
plagues-7 pts (-1)

Weapons:
Baleflamer-30 pts (-30 pts)
Blastmaster-20 pts (-8)
Hades AC-25 (-8 pts)
Reaper-15 pts (-3 pts)
Soulreaper-15 pts (-5 pts)

Melee:
Daemonic axe-10 pts (-35 pts)
Helforged sword-10 pts (-35 pts)
L claws-8/12 (-1 pt)
plague sword-1 pt (-2 pts)
power fist-12 pts (-8 pts)


That is all the point changes.

Found here.

https://youtu.be/wQa-to_os94

 Galas wrote:
Plus, Fabius Bile in the mission to do some Primaris Chaos Marines boys!



Source: https://www.lavozdehorus.com/fabius-bilis-objetivo-marines-primaris-del-caos/ (And the new CSM codex obviously)

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
I'm the one who decipher the french leak one B&C.

Just fyi i made it with a better screen and could translate the 3 new Dark Hereticus power.

One power i coudnt decipher, maybe adding strenght to a unit.

One power to cancel Invulnerable save

One power to target a unit, roll D6, if the result is > Target thougness she take 1D3+3 mortal wound.
If the target is a character and is killed, he's transformed into a Chaos spawn (dunno if we have to take the point in army list like for the Tzeencht staff).

Take it with salt, the quality of those images are pur garbage.

Bonk_EU wrote:
So i dont know if anyone already did this but i took my phone camera and zoomed in on the picture in the white dwarf.

Black Legion: +1 to morale and when a unit with this advances all of their rapid fire guns become assault. the Example they give is rapid fire 2 -> assault 2
World Eaters: hard to read but i think it is "if a unit with this charges you can make an aditional melee attack"
Word Bearers: also hard to read but i think its "A Unit with this can reroll morale checks"
Alpha Legion: We joked about it but they did it. -1 to hit at 12" or more. Raven Guard copy paste
Night Lords: -1 leadership (for enemies) for every unit with this in 6" range
Renegades: They can advance and charge

Also theres a new special rule but i cant quite make it out. could be objective secured aswell but im not sure

Imgur-album with (of course) horrible quality and german language: http://imgur.com/a/eBLDn

Thebiggesthat wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:

Thebiggesthat wrote:

Chikout wrote:
During the 24 live stream Jeremy Vetock let slip that he had seen Slaanesh stuff in the studio. This segment is mysteriously missing from the facebook archive.
I feel pretty certain that we will see emperors children next year and probably world eaters in 2019. GW seems determined to push 40k chaos as hard as they have been pushing Aos chaos.

Well the new Greater Demon is already done

Keeper of Secrets?

Yaarp. Although I still maintain the old 2nd Ed model was the pinnacle

 Marius Xerxes wrote:
Iron Warriors stuff posted.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/01/legion-focus-iron-warriors-aug-1gw-homepage-post-2/

Warhams-77 wrote:
After having read the new White Dwarf, I came to the conclusion I was wrong about the Dark Hereticus psychic powers. There are 6 generic spells plus 1 for each god (except Khorne ofc). The CSM card set comes with 10 powers, Smite being the last, as shown in the advert. I will edit the 1st post accordingly.

Two more interestig things in the issue:

- In the letter section they answer a querry for more Slaanesh models with "And perhaps we'll see something soon for Slaanesh... maybe." While it is super vague why should they say this if there isn't anything ahead and why put that letter in WD if the answer to its (only) topic isn't of interest to other readers? They could have taken another letter with a different topic instead, couldn't they?

- The SM and CSM codices show the rift from two perspectives - Chaos though has something called Night Rift on it. WD: "Chaos Space Marines marks the rather alarming presence of something called the Night Rift!"

Warhams-77 wrote:
Also Cypher and the Fallen are confirmed to be in Codex: CSM by WD on page 147, Vox Chatter

Warhams-77 wrote:
War of Sigmar

https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/2289

Hello everyone !!

It seem that our reading of the chaos trait on our WD were not accurate.

Ben from grim resolve channel ! : https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXXhl19Xr2S1v2691Qq4kBw have a different reading !!


1. Alpha Legion = -1 to hit rolls when they are more than 12" away.

2. World Eaters = Extra attack when they make a successful charge.

3. Iron Warriors = Ignore cover when shooting and (I think, I can't be 100%) re-roll saves when themselves are in cover.

4. Black Legion = +1 Ld and Rapid fire weapons count as Assault weapons if the unit advanced.

5. Emperors Children = Attack first in combat just like Slannesh daemons

6. Renegades chapters = Advance and charge

7. Word Bearers = Re-roll failed morale

8. Night Lords = -1 from enemy Ld when within 6" and can stack up to the maximum of - 3 (you could probs use the Raptors ability on top and make it drop an extra -1 too)

World Eaters have a Stratagem that allows them to fight again in the fight phase (so that would be a 3rd time for berzerkers)
As a bonus we can see a Grey knight chaplain in terminator armor (the super rare store exclusive) maybe they plan to re-release him.

@Thx ben from grim resolve !!!

/cheers.
bob.

Codex pics (french)

Spoiler:

 MinscS2 wrote:
Courtesy from DreamIsCollapsing @ B&C who deciphered the french leak.

World Eater Stratagem:
Cancel a psychic power within 24" on a 4+

Emperor's Children Stratagem:
Activates in the combat phase. Each time a model of this squads kills an enemy model, he can immediately make another attack with the same weapon on the same enemy unit.

Night Lord Stratagem:
Activate when a Night Lord unit get's shot: The enemy must add -1 to hit for ranged weapons against that unit in this phase.

Alpha Legion Stratagem:
...It's the same as Raven Guard. Same CT and same Stratagem. *Yawn*

He wasn't 100% sure of the Black Legion and Word Bearer-Stratagems.

Black Legion had something about giving a squad rerolling 1's to hit during a shooting phase or combat phase, and an additional rule for Chaos Space Marine Squads (re-rolling 1's to wound as well?)

Word Bearers got to reroll their dices when summoning Daemons. Something more about doubles and triples that he couldn't decipher.

 Ghaz wrote:






Come back tomorrow, when we’ll be looking at the masters of siege in the 41st Millennium – the Iron Warriors.

Quoted from WarCom

Posted 30/07/2017

Two new codexes, coming next week

One codex is pretty big news – but sometimes that’s just not enough, so how about two in one week? This coming Saturday, you’ll be able to pre-order the new codexes for the Chaos Space Marines and the Grey Knights.

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/CodexCSM8dr.jpg

Codex: Chaos Space Marines brings some of the oldest enemies of the Imperium fully into the new edition of Warhammer 40,000 with loads of new content. The Heretic Astartes are an ancient and terrifyingly powerful force, and more so in the age of the Dark Imperium as they are empowered not only by centuries of hate and an arsenal of baleful relics but now also by the dark energies of the warp bleeding into the wider galaxy from the Cicatrix Maledictum.

The new codex represents the Chaos Space Marines in their ascendancy, allowing you to collect a force that reflects both your favourite units and Legions while remaining true to the background. Like Chapter Tactics, the Chaos Legions are getting new rules of their own to represent how they fight, as well as unique Stratagems, Warlord Traits and artefacts. You’ll be able to build powerful themed armies, from rebellious packs of Renegades to furious forces of World Eaters, and from terrifying battalions of Night Lords to the depraved duelists of the Emperor’s Children. There are 9 psychic powers too, as well as updated points costs, datasheets and much much more – we’ll be taking a closer look at each Legion every day next week, starting tomorrow.

[...]


The new codexes and units will be available to pre-order on August the 5th – in the meantime, we’ll be previewing all of them right here on the Warhammer Community website. You can get rules for the Hellblasters and the Intercessors in the new Space Marines codex, or start collecting Grey Knights or Chaos Space Marines today.

- Quoted from the GK thread

 Quickjager wrote:
Codex Pre-order August 5th

 aracersss wrote:
someone has all info in both languages
https://www.lavozdehorus.com/primeras-imagenes-contenido-del-codex-marines-espaciales-del-caos/

* Original post *

While browsing the iStore I saw that Codex: CSM was there to be preordered.

According to the entry Codex: CSM will be available on August 22nd, but as this is going to be a Tuesday, it is most likely not the correct date. The price is 24.99 EUR (ebook).


The photos in the ebook do not show new miniatures. So CSM in Power armour, Terminators, Abaddon, Berzerkers, Possessed etc are all the currently available models.


Alpha Legion, Black Legion, Emperor's Children, World Eaters, Night Lords, Word Bearers, Iron Warriors get rules in the book

- 45 datasheets
- 24 stratagems (7 are legion specific)
- 8 Legion Traits (7 for the original Legions + 1 for Renegades)
- 6 generic WL Traits + 7 Legion-specific traits
- 6 Tactical objectives
- 14 artefacts and weapons only available to CSM
- [Edit:] 9 Dark Hereticus powers: 1 for Nurgle, Tzeentch and Slaanesh plus 6 generic spells


Source of info is GW on the iStore. Check the entry and download the sample

What "photos available" were these?

Picturesssss please!

Eh what leaks?

Can confirm this. It's still on the iTunes store right now; nothing new or exceedingly nifty.

I updated the op with everything I found.

Still no new Abaddon model? Such a missed opportunity (as it was during fall of cadia). Bunch of Primaris captain characters with useless options but still no leader of the Black Crusades.

Other than that, looks to be as expected.

Yes, this looks like a minimal release. There could be a surprise or two, not shown in the sample. Who knows.

Expect the same for Grey Knights. Maybe some reboxed models here and there. But that should be it.

So this is basically confirmation of a Thousand Sons codex at some point, since only they and Death Guard don't get rules here.

I expect that the model releases will be Death Guard. Like how they're right now in the middle of releasing a Space Marine and a Grey Knights codex with lots of Primaris releases. It's too early to say if they've really got a pattern but it would make sense if they want to release the codices in major/minor pairs with model releases for only one, since they're releasing them so quickly.

I bet if we plaster pictures of the current Khorne Berserkers all over GW HQ they'd realize why they need new models.

I don't think the codex book releases will be pairs but that GW mixes small releases and larger ones like they did in 7th Edition.

There will definitely be a separate Codex for Thousand Sons, they are not in this book.

Warhams-77 wrote:
While browsing the iStore I saw that Codex: CSM was there to be preordered.

According to the entry Codex: CSM will be available August 22nd, price is 24.99 EUR (ebook). Preorder should be on the 15th of August.

The 22nd (and 15th) of August is a Tuesday...

Just saw this too. It is what the site says though. I will edit it

 Kirasu wrote:
I bet if we plaster pictures of the current Khorne Berserkers all over GW HQ they'd realize why they need new models.

Ha! Yeah, those models were the best in the plastic chaos range when they came out, but that was also, like, 15-20 years ago.

I'm gonna call it here, Death Guard'll be in late augest early september, and we'll actually see the plastic plague marine box come out with the chaos space marines codex.

I got published 5th Aug on the U.K. Store.

But also says expected 22nd.

Maybe that's an error and it's pre-order 5th for a 12th (12 being one digit out from 22)

 Azreal13 wrote:
I got published 5th Aug on the U.K. Store.

^^ ?

Edited, but it definitely says published 5th, but expected 22nd?

5th and 12th of August would fit, both Saturdays.

Not expecting anything too earthshaking really. For all we know, they will just take most of it from the legion book and adapt it into this new codex.

So, black legion gets something that either makes them deep strike better or hit better (their VOTLW rule).

World Eaters legion maybe gets something like furious charge.

Iron warriors maybe get a 6+ FNP

That sort of thing. Just take all the artifacts already in the legion book and adapt them to 8th ed. Wouldn't be surprised if that's what they do.

Dionysodorus wrote:
So this is basically confirmation of a Thousand Sons codex at some point, since only they and Death Guard don't get rules here.

I'm also slightly inclined to say that this means Thousand Sons will be getting more kits.

5th is a Saturday, but won't the Primaris releases still be happening that week? This weekend should be announcing the tank, chaplain and apothecary releases while the 5th will most likely be the last 3 units going up for pre-order. I guess they could announce the GK andCSM codexes then and release them both on the 12th but that seems far too close together. But I guess it could happen

 Tiberius501 wrote:
5th is a Saturday, but won't the Primaris releases still be happening that week? This weekend should be announcing the tank, chaplain and apothecary releases while the 5th will most likely be the last 3 units going up for pre-order. I guess they could announce the GK andCSM codexes then and release them both on the 12th but that seems far too close together. But I guess it could happen

Pretty sure that's kind of what happened for Age of Sigmar with Blades of Khorne and the major release (Kharadon Overlords iirc?).
It's just that this time it'll be a major release (Vanilla Marines) + GK & CSMs

They were discussing the releases of the base Army expansions. There was no discussion of the CHAOS ONLY!!!! codex.

So far, the Deathguard are getting their own. I haven't heard anything about expansive released, aside fro m the next couple of months, which seem to capitalize on the basic army boxed set. Space Marines, regular and king sized, and Deathguard.

someone has all info in both languages
https://www.lavozdehorus.com/primeras-imagenes-contenido-del-codex-marines-espaciales-del-caos/

"We want to bring Chaos back to the fore as the core narrative threat" gakky outdated plastics that are older than the target audience and a mailed in early book again...

 Eldarain wrote:
"We want to bring Chaos back to the fore as the core narrative threat" gakky outdated plastics that are older than the target audience and a mailed in early book again...

Meh, just mix calth/prospero plastic marine parts and chaos warrior helmets in and presto. I know it takes a bit f effort but at least your guys will all be unique rather then have that built from box look. Which is what chaos should look like.

I am more worried about the options we lose. Judging from the marine release we can expect bike characters and none existent combi weapons to vanish lol.

I'm already doing that it's everything though. 2nd edition characters. Havocs/Terminators. The lack of support will cut us deeper when the "no plastic kit" cull happens too.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
"We want to bring Chaos back to the fore as the core narrative threat" gakky outdated plastics that are older than the target audience and a mailed in early book again...

Meh, just mix calth/prospero plastic marine parts and chaos warrior helmets in and presto. I know it takes a bit f effort but at least your guys will all be unique rather then have that built from box look. Which is what chaos should look like.

I am more worried about the options we lose. Judging from the marine release we can expect bike characters and none existent combi weapons to vanish lol.

This. I'm not sure I want any new chaos marine sculpts. I'm not keen on the aesthetics of new Deathguard, Dark Vengeance box set, or Helbrute. I much prefer the look of the early corrupted legions as opposed to the heavily mutated look they're pushing now. I fully intend to convert up some Primaris marines with FW shoulder pads, and helmets when I restart my Emperors Children. I haven't seen it done yet but, I'm sure you could convert some amazing Berserkers from Primaris and some AOS Khorne parts.

 Sersi wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:
"We want to bring Chaos back to the fore as the core narrative threat" gakky outdated plastics that are older than the target audience and a mailed in early book again...

Meh, just mix calth/prospero plastic marine parts and chaos warrior helmets in and presto. I know it takes a bit f effort but at least your guys will all be unique rather then have that built from box look. Which is what chaos should look like.

I am more worried about the options we lose. Judging from the marine release we can expect bike characters and none existent combi weapons to vanish lol.

This. I'm not sure I want any new chaos marine sculpts. I'm not keen on the aesthetics of new Deathguard, Dark Vengeance box set, or Helbrute. I much prefer the look of the early corrupted legions as opposed to the heavily mutated look they're pushing now. I fully intend to convert up some Primaris marines with FW shoulder pads, and helmets when I restart my Emperors Children. I haven't seen it done yet but, I'm sure you could convert some amazing Berserkers from Primaris and some AOS Khorne parts.

the HH stuff is defiantly gonna be a god send, I'm sitting on 3 squads of MK 3 armor I'm thinking will be the core of a force of Iron warriors. (as my original Iron warriors CSMs where some of my first attempts at painting)

 Sersi wrote:
This. I'm not sure I want any new chaos marine sculpts. I'm not keen on the aesthetics of new Deathguard, Dark Vengeance box set, or Helbrute. I much prefer the look of the early corrupted legions as opposed to the heavily mutated look they're pushing now.

I agree. Most new chaos models I see resemble more possessed marines IMO than rebellious astartes. Don't get me wrong... I like me some possessed (especially the Gal Vorbak!) but I don't need sharp warp spikes literally growing out of every marine (instead of just being welded onto the armor) and fleshy/metal hybrids.

If you click my gallery I did an emperors children army last year with albeit personally sculpted and cast torsos but I used raptor weapons and heads and Calth legs to get a pretty decent cult marine in the end. I am currently doing a black legion force and I am using a ton of chaos warrior and knight helmets and it really makes a world of difference. I think the biggest single issue with the chaos space marine box is the crappy helmet sculpts, it's the first thing that draws the eye.

Seems like a perfectly good release. I mean, I can't think of any Chaos models that need updating besides Abaddon, Fabius, Lucius, Huron, regular plastic Chaos Marines, Havocs, Obliterators, Mutilators, Khorne Berzerkers, Chaos Bikers or Noise Marines.

Other than those few minor no-core items it's really a very complete range.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Seems like a perfectly good release. I mean, I can't think of any Chaos models that need updating besides Abaddon, Fabius, Lucius, Huron, regular plastic Chaos Marines, Havocs, Obliterators, Mutilators, Khorne Berzerkers, Chaos Bikers or Noise Marines.

Other than those few minor no-core items it's really a very complete range.

We also don't have a T-rex shaped demon engine yet.

Honestly, they could probably get some mileage out of plastic upgrade sprues for the Mk III and Mk IV kits.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
We also don't have a T-rex shaped demon engine yet.

Good point. There were 5 Dinobots from memory, so we still need the missing 3.

Lucius, Fabius and noise marines will be part of codex emperors children obviously, along with fulgrim and probably some terminator elites.

Kinda missing the (really not all that subtle) point I was making.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Kinda missing the (really not all that subtle) point I was making.

I'd not hold my breath on special characters, as it is chaos has gotten better that way then any other army of late (plastic kharn, ahriman, and typhus coming up) which is more a statement of how bad off special characters are over all in modern 40k

the others I agree could use some new minis, a mutilator/obliterator duel kit seems logical, and I'd REALLY like to see a decent Havok Kit.

standard Chaos Marines, are oddly, of the stuff on your list the ones I'm least intreasted in seeing... but I play Iron Warriors so I'm just gonna be using the MK 3 armor kits

BrianDavion wrote:
standard Chaos Marines, are oddly, of the stuff on your list the ones I'm least intreasted in seeing... but I play Iron Warriors so I'm just gonna be using the MK 3 armor kits

Honestly, me too, but for a different reason.

Yes, I'm one of the people who actually really likes the Chaos Marine kit. I've tons of 'em.

I hope the renegade rules will make it possible to bring Raptors, Bikes, Chosen and Dark Apostle with Mark of Nurgle back to my DG List.
Also it says:
"...the Dark Hereticus discipline with its 3 powers specific to the Marks of Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh."

Does that mean you'll get the 3 powers from the index and depending on the mark +3 from you god? Also, does it mean for undivided no additional powers?

The way i read it was there are 3 generic powers in the discipline and 1 for each god except khorne.

 Rydria wrote:
The way i read it was there are 3 generic powers in the discipline and 1 for each god except khorne.

That would be my guess as well. Gives chaos 6 total like the goodies and if you want more god specific powers then play the god specific book (sorry Slaanesh lol).

I'm not sure GW intends to update the CSM models. Seems they're finally fleshing out the cult units after all these decades and giving each cult multiple unique unit types, including the basic cult troops. Cult armies and units probably account for about half of chaos armies anyway, they certainly won't give unique models to the undivided legions. So undivided will just have to make do with what we have now, though it isn't a big deal as there're so many models to choose from between GW, Forgeworld, 40/30k and AoS (and 3rd parties) that you can relatively easily create good looking CSM's without need for a new kit.

Demantiae wrote:
I'm not sure GW intends to update the CSM models. Seems they're finally fleshing out the cult units after all these decades and giving each cult multiple unique unit types, including the basic cult troops. Cult armies and units probably account for about half of chaos armies anyway, they certainly won't give unique models to the undivided legions. So undivided will just have to make do with what we have now, though it isn't a big deal as there're so many models to choose from between GW, Forgeworld, 40/30k and AoS (and 3rd parties) that you can relatively easily create good looking CSM's without need for a new kit.

They have to be updated to coincide with the steroid infused scale creep that is the hallmark of Nu 40k.

 warboss wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
This. I'm not sure I want any new chaos marine sculpts. I'm not keen on the aesthetics of new Deathguard, Dark Vengeance box set, or Helbrute. I much prefer the look of the early corrupted legions as opposed to the heavily mutated look they're pushing now.

I agree. Most new chaos models I see resemble more possessed marines IMO than rebellious astartes. Don't get me wrong... I like me some possessed (especially the Gal Vorbak!) but I don't need sharp warp spikes literally growing out of every marine (instead of just being welded onto the armor) and fleshy/metal hybrids.

Seriously, are spikes and tentacles the only way to make them look "EVIL" these days?

No new models, so I'm pretty much uninterested.

Honestly GW, can you just redo the fething chaos line already?

 Sersi wrote:


Seriously, are spikes and tentacles the only way to make them look "EVIL" these days?

Their choices are limited ever since Forgeworld claimed curly mustaches and goofy hats for the alpha legion.

I remember back before I quit 40k (Just got back into it again) I was just going to use standard marines as chaos with a few bits added to them and a worn paint scheme with chapter symbols burnt off and aquila defaced as renegades. I may do that this time around.

 Kirasu wrote:
I bet if we plaster pictures of the current Khorne Berserkers all over GW HQ they'd realize why they need new models.

Only if we plaster pictures of their giant CARTOON HANDS.

overtyrant wrote:
I remember back before I quit 40k (Just got back into it again) I was just going to use standard marines as chaos with a few bits added to them and a worn paint scheme with chapter symbols burnt off and aquila defaced as renegades. I may do that this time around.

This is what I've always preferred aesthetically basically ghosts/hold outs from the Heresy era brought forward to the present. In fact I think that's the theme I'll use.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Kirasu wrote:
I bet if we plaster pictures of the current Khorne Berserkers all over GW HQ they'd realize why they need new models.

Only if we plaster pictures of their giant CARTOON HANDS.

To be honest, berserkers really just need an abdomen upgrade sprue. lol, they literally look like a chest sitting on a pelvis.

I've been debating selling off my old world eaters to buy AOS Blood Warriors and a few FW bits. That Start Collecting Bloodbound box is really speaking to me. With 22 August being less than a month away, I am skeptical that they would squeeze in any box kits.. but.. GW is onto some craziness lately so who knows.

RE: Dirty armor vs Armor Twisted by the warp.. I like to think that CSM are effected by the warp the same way weapons and vehicles are.. It twists their armor and their bodies. The difference between this and possessed is that possessed actually have spirits or demons or whatever from the warp imparting their energy or strength in them while the others with stuff on them are simply touched by Chaos. I don't think either approach is wrong but IMO there is a distinction between CSM (as in afflicted by the warp) and Renegade Astartes (not afflicted just gave the Emperor the bird).

Oh I don't mind mutations where it makes sense. Like tentacles and random eyes that's a Tzeentch thing. It should be something basic CSM should have.

I'd actually prefer chaos marines to be more mutated and weird, not less. Especially those who are from the time of Horus Heresy and have hung out in warp for ten millennia or something. Gal Vorbak are basically my ideal chaos marines.



Besides, it seems pretty counterproductive to even have chaos marines, if they're just same as the regular marines.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
Lucius, Fabius and noise marines will be part of codex emperors children obviously, along with fulgrim and probably some terminator elites.

Fabius is pretty much his own sub faction or could be - with his Acolytes, genetic creations, experiments etc - he is not really part of the Emperors Children (and does not have their key word) - if such a thing even really exists any more.

With that being said I really hope we don't just get a load of Legion Codexes alongside countless Marine Chapter Codexes but I think its likely - A source book based on each Power would be so much more intersting, flexible and enjoyable - to me at least.

 Crimson wrote:
I'd actually prefer chaos marines to be more mutated and weird, not less. Especially those who are from the time of Horus Heresy and have hung out in warp for ten millennia or something. Gal Vorbak are basically my ideal chaos marines.

Spoiler:

Besides, it seems pretty counterproductive to even have chaos marines, if they're just same as the regular marines.

Those are my favorite (and I stated such above) recent chaos models as well as I think they finally do possessed justice. The difference I suppose is that I expect that level of mutation to be an extreme and not close to the baseline. The 6th/7th edition starter set chaos marines and dreadnoughts were just too mutated as a standard.

Games workshop should understand the importance of this release, this is a genuine opportunity to fix a lot of the idiocy they introduced into chaos since 3rd ed, they need to bring the legions back to the fore, they need to re introduce the character focussed warbands, lots of gifts (points) veteran skills (points) wargear (points) deamonic weapons (points), by no means whatsoever should ANY of the chaos units have random tables, with exception to the spawn, and that should be at the start of the game for its duration, mark of chaos undivided should also be brought back (re roll ld and +1 ld) and the option of multiple veteran skills for unmarked models.

Make chaos a tier 1 army again, make them powerful and a real threat to the imperium (keyword) not just space marines.

I cannot get it through my head that we are not getting new Chaos Space Marines. Just a basic set. It makes no sense to me.I must be an automatic sell.... I just ....no.

What a bummer

 Eldarain wrote:
and a mailed in early book again...

It seems to have everything the SM book has, so....

I hope possessed, mutilators and oblitirators are changed in the codex or get a hefty price reduction. It is heart breaking to see possessed be aweful for yet another edition.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
No new models, so I'm pretty much uninterested.

Honestly GW, can you just redo the fething chaos line already?

I'm sure they'll get around to it, but they need to give AoS some room to breathe, too.

I'm not trying to doom-say here, but I can see the following happening:

-General lessening of generic Chaos Space Marines (oh and get ready to lose any option which isn't on a specific model - just like the Space Marine codex)
-Bigger concentration on the four Gods and their independent factions
-Maybe a big Chaos re-launch after all that (i.e. a few years from now?)

It's a bit irrelevant to me, because I'm one of the few who prefers barely-Chaos Chaos. My entire Chaos Space Marine force is just rusted/beaten up slightly gloomy looking MkIII's with conversions etc. Even my plague marines are tame by the outrageous nature of the GW ones. Sadly that means almost zero Chaos release will ever matter to me, so I'll continue just custom building stuff.

 Elbows wrote:


-General lessening of generic Chaos Space Marines (oh and get ready to lose any option which isn't on a specific model - just like the Space Marine codex)

Well, we're hosed then. At least 70% of our kits don't include all their current options.

If you zoom there is a Night Lords Stratagem called In Midnight Clad shown on one of these pages and a World Eaters Stratagem on the same photo

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/White-Dwarf-August-2017-ENG

It looks like for one CP when a unit targets a NL unit, all hit rolls against that unit in that phase suffer a -1 penalty to hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That WE strategum allows berserkers to attack a third time in combat. Talk about overkill.

The Votlw strategum allows for +1 to wounds.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
It looks like for one CP when a unit targets a NL unit, all hit rolls against that unit in that phase suffer a -1 penalty to hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That WE strategum allows berserkers to attack a third time in combat. Talk about overkill.

The Votlw strategum allows for +1 to wounds.

Mother of god, 6 - 9 attack berserkers this is insanity lol

That veterans of the long war startegem seems really good +1 to wound makes, massed sonic blaster fire really dangerous.

A third attack phase is great and all, but I would have preferred some sort of charge range mitigation. That said, if the strategium can be used on any WE unit, not just zerkers, holy cow. Look out for the blood slaughterers!

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
A third attack phase is great and all, but I would have preferred some sort of charge range mitigation. That said, if the strategium can be used on any WE unit, not just zerkers, holy cow. Look out for the blood slaughterers!

Is it me or is the fact that berserkers can now wound anything that isn't a warlord titan on a 4+ with veterans of the long war seem terrifying ?

With 48 attacks from a five man unit, heh. Or 9 powerfist attacks with the champ. Double heh.

There won't be bigger Chaos Marines. When the Imperium wins and closes the Warp - chaos will go away and be squatted.

Chaos will be demons only so they can make them bigger without the need to "forge the narrative" with Chaos Marines.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
With 48 attacks from a five man unit, heh. Or 9 powerfist attacks with the champ. Double heh.

"Everything goes according to plan. Skulls for the Skull God!"

I hope veterans of the long war works for shooting and not just close combat, and the other legions get abilities as cool as the world eaters one.

I find it funny that a lowly zerker champ can solo a knight in one turn.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
A third attack phase is great and all, but I would have preferred some sort of charge range mitigation. That said, if the strategium can be used on any WE unit, not just zerkers, holy cow. Look out for the blood slaughterers!

Very likely infantry, bikes, and dreads only. Though that one sounds like berzerkers only since it says "for a third time". Their chapter tactic is still unknown.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I find it funny that a lowly zerker champ can solo a knight in one turn.

If you manage that please send me the winning lottery numbers as well.

I doubt it's Berzerkers only, but if it isn't than yeah Blood Slaughterers are going to be nuts. Hell, my Khyribdis will love that!

I'm glad to see so many share my opinion of liking Gal Virbak style CSM over the current ones.

 SolidOakie wrote:
I'm glad to see so many share my opinion of liking Gal Virbak style CSM over the current ones.

I can't speak for others but my appreciation of the Gal Vorbak is strictly as the best representation to date of the extreme subset that is possessed marines but not as an exemplar of what the majority of chaos marines should be like. YMMV.

 SolidOakie wrote:
I'm glad to see so many share my opinion of liking Gal Virbak style CSM over the current ones.

To be honest the CSM range is a sad, sorry and confused looking mess. It's biggest problem is that nothing meshes well with anything else.

I feel there's far too many different aesthetics and they seem to come about depending on which sculptor had which whim at which time.

You have Ornate Pre-Heresy style (seen on the Thousand Sons mainly but also on the Raptors) - older armour marks with trims and a bit of a baroque feel.
You have MUTATION EVERYWHERE (Dark Vengeance Chosen and Lord, Helbrutes, Obliterators and Mutilators) - not too bad but terrible if mixed in with other things.
You have COMEDY MUTATION (Possessed, DI Plague Marines with their random tentacles and fleshy blobs, Dinobot Daemon Engines) - awful. Just awful.
You have Standard Imperial With Trims (Current CSM kit, Terminators, Havocs, Rhinos, Predators, Land Raiders) - relic design philosophy of 2nd and 3rd ed where most things were just sculpted over the existing SM Tacticals.

If we could just have one unified aesthetic I'd be content. But instead we have 3-4 different design directions and anything new could be any one of those.

My personal preferences?

Ornate Pre-Heresy would be fantastic for CSM. It'd fit their lore, distinguish the Traitor Legions from the Renegades.
The Mutation Everywhere approach could work but only if the entire army takes that approach - otherwise it's jarring.

The other design directions? Well, we don't have a Puke Orkmoticon....

Comedy Mutation is terrible. I hate it. It's jarring, it makes things look more like Saturday morning cartoons than actual horrors from the Warp. Compare the possessed to the Gal Vorbak...or compare them to the Dark Vengeance Chosen. They're terrible. Cartoony and fugly to boot. Nothing is horrifying about them. They're almost as bad as the metal Possessed from late 4th edition/early 5th edition (Medusa V campagin) with their terrible dancing poses and the random Tim Curry Lord of Darkness champion.

And the Standard Imperial With Trims was fine when they started out. But now it isn't. It's lazy. And it shows. We have a core troops choice that is based on another army's core troops choice from 5 editions ago. That other army has had that choice get one sprue recut and one complete update. We had a sprue recut to add in an Icon holding arm, a variant chainsword and bolt pistol and a few different heads that are pretty much still the same.

I'd not mind a mutation heavy approuch to the kits, but at the same time I'd like to see them do a MK V heresy era kit as well. then you could mix and match between the chaos kit, the MK III, IV AND V kits to create the right look

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I hope the renegade rules will make it possible to bring Raptors, Bikes, Chosen and Dark Apostle with Mark of Nurgle back to my DG List.
Also it says:
"...the Dark Hereticus discipline with its 3 powers specific to the Marks of Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh."

Does that mean you'll get the 3 powers from the index and depending on the mark +3 from you god? Also, does it mean for undivided no additional powers?

Death guard are getting their own book. Only way you'll get these will be to run standard chaos army with mark of nurgle. Death guard should never have had bikes, raptors anyway

 Motograter wrote:
Death guard should never have had bikes, raptors anyway

Now let me just say....rulewise, was it terrible? Sure.

But before you quote the 3.5 Mark restrictions at me as an attempt to justify that...

Try to remember World Eaters couldn't take Havocs - but now they can take anything so long as it has the Khorne keyword and isn't a psyker.

Death Guard probably can make a case for Raptors with the recent 30k stuff - Destroyers being a specialised chem-warfare jump pack unit.

I actually really like the Dark Imperium Death Guard models... It's a level of grossness that I would prescribe only to the Death Guard, not to any of the other legions. Part of the reason I think Thousand Sons and Death Guard are being separated is that they're both so distinctly different from everything else CSM, in two opposite directions.

Hoping that there is a new Abbadon model

There won't be a new Abaddon model with this book

I love the look of the Dark Vengeance Chosen, but since they can no longer be run as either chosen och CSM troops (have to switch bolter for chainsword), I'm not sure what to do with them..

I would love new troops that look like them though. And I've said that in similar threads for years (on here and warseer).

Sooo lazy using the same cover as the old codex...which I believe was the cover of "Blood Gorgons"...super crap, so lazy. Can anyone tell me what the "Faces of the Hydra" text says please? It's too blurry for me to read on my phone and laptop...thanks in advance.

It does blow me away somewhat that Abaddon, the big bad final boss of the setting, hasn't had a new model in twenty years.

It makes no sense at all.

Warhams-77 wrote:
There won't be a new Abaddon model with this book

Yep. Most I've heard from local store owners and managers is that CSM is going to be one of those minimal releases - Codex, maybe some upgrade sprues (ala Deathwatch/DA/SW/BA/Ultras) but not a lot else.

And apparently pre-order next week (05/08) - the conflicting date of the 22nd on Itunes is off because that's a Tuesday.

 Lotus Corgi wrote:
Sooo lazy using the same cover as the old codex

It's so awesome though. It's the best CSM artwork I've ever seen

This looks like a codex to skip. To say I'm disappointed would be an understatement. They can crap out psychic disciplines and strategems for grey knights but not for chaos space marines? Yeah, cheers

 Bull0 wrote:
This looks like a codex to skip. To say I'm disappointed would be an understatement. They can crap out psychic disciplines and strategems for grey knights but not for chaos space marines? Yeah, cheers

err they are getting 10 psychic powers. More than space marines. Plus 29 strategems.

The way they've phrased it suggests none of it's exclusive to that army, though. That's what I meant.

 Bull0 wrote:
The way they've phrased it suggests none of it's exclusive to that army, though. That's what I meant.

Err where? OP is pretty explicit.

Also this: http://i.imgur.com/YW5fjSV.jpg

Sometimes I think people want to whine and see what they want to see...

Damn. This is going to suck. AGAIN!

Umbros wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
The way they've phrased it suggests none of it's exclusive to that army, though. That's what I meant.

Err where? OP is pretty explicit.

Also this: http://i.imgur.com/YW5fjSV.jpg

Sometimes I think people want to whine and see what they want to see...

That picture seems to imply (possibly) that Grey Knights and CSM could be getting their releases at pretty much the same time

It's funny that GW has squated options not represented on models, yet they blatantly ignored options available on their very new (by GW standards) mono-pose Chosen models, completely invalidating some of the better CSM models.

GW is really lazy when it comes to CSM (and some other factions). Their policy of letting their sculptors make whatever they feel like and ignoring what the range actually needs (decent chaos kits, especially Abafail, Sisters ffs) is hurting their bottom line. No other company would let their #1 game antagonists atrophy so badly. Just look at the last two game sets -DI & DV. In both cases the bad guy chaos units were way more detailed and interesting looking than the good guys, inspiring many players to choose chaos on the look alone. Then they look at the basic kits and expanded range and cry.

Chaos should be their number 2 priority, after lanky marines of course, they'd never not make SM's #1. And if chaos is a minimal release why the hell are they after GK's? Why aren't they second so we can play the campaign on an even footing from the get-go? GK's are such a specialised and small faction.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
Damn. This is going to RULE. AGAIN!

Yeah! CSM are already doing pretty well but with this we should be a real force to be reckoned with. I can't wait to get, hopefully, my Axe of Blind Fury and Burning Brand back. Hopefully there will be point reductions across the board as well just like the SM codex.

Demantiae wrote:
It's funny that GW has squated options not represented on models, yet they blatantly ignored options available on their very new (by GW standards) mono-pose Chosen models, completely invalidating some of the better CSM models.

But they don't sell those any more, so they don't matter.

Consider us lucky that we even have Chosen in Power Armour, given that they don't make a kit for that either...

Quoted from the GK thread

 Quickjager wrote:
Codex Pre-order August 5th

 Tiberius501 wrote:

Umbros wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
The way they've phrased it suggests none of it's exclusive to that army, though. That's what I meant.

Err where? OP is pretty explicit.

Also this: http://i.imgur.com/YW5fjSV.jpg

Sometimes I think people want to whine and see what they want to see...

That picture seems to imply (possibly) that Grey Knights and CSM could be getting their releases at pretty much the same time

well the pic does say that Grey Kinghts are getting 16 (of the 19 in their deck) strategms exclusive to Grey Knights in thier deck, the Chaos one just lists "the 29 stategems aavialble to Chaos Space Marines"

Gk get 16 plus the base 3
Csm get the base 3, presumably 8 specific to various legions, and then 18 more. Some will likely be the same strategies with different names, like the +1/+2 relic one.

 Mr Morden wrote:

well the pic does say that Grey Kinghts are getting 16 (of the 19 in their deck) strategms exclusive to Grey Knights in thier deck, the Chaos one just lists "the 29 stategems aavialble to Chaos Space Marines"

A ridiculous point since unless they're literally copy pasted from SM, they're CSM exclusive, as no other strategems exist.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

well the pic does say that Grey Kinghts are getting 16 (of the 19 in their deck) strategms exclusive to Grey Knights in thier deck, the Chaos one just lists "the 29 stategems aavialble to Chaos Space Marines"

A ridiculous point since unless they're literally copy pasted from SM, they're CSM exclusive, as no other strategems exist.

They could re-use some of the Vehicle ones like Linebreaker for Vindicators.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

well the pic does say that Grey Kinghts are getting 16 (of the 19 in their deck) strategms exclusive to Grey Knights in thier deck, the Chaos one just lists "the 29 stategems aavialble to Chaos Space Marines"

A ridiculous point since unless they're literally copy pasted from SM, they're CSM exclusive, as no other strategems exist.

They could re-use some of the Vehicle ones like Linebreaker for Vindicators.

In which case, those would also not be "exclusive" to SM, either.

But, yeah, I expect to see some overlap where SM stratagems involve common vehicles.

they'd be "exclusive" in that the SM one applies to <Chapter> <Vindicator> units and the CSM one would apply to <Legion> or <Heretic Astartes> Vindicators.

Wording is different, ergo stratagem is different, so they can claim that the stratagems are exclusive, the same way "Ripping the galaxy in half and initiating a century long timeskip" is technically not 40K End Times

Umbros wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
The way they've phrased it suggests none of it's exclusive to that army, though. That's what I meant.

Err where? OP is pretty explicit.

Also this: http://i.imgur.com/YW5fjSV.jpg

Sometimes I think people want to whine and see what they want to see...

That page literally uses the wording "exclusive" regarding grey knights and doesn't regarding chaos space marines, that's what I meant. I don't understand how you read my post, read the wording on that image, then decided that was a good example to disprove my point. But yeah sure, go for ad homs, I'm just looking for things to whine about (pro tip - I'm probably one of the biggest GW defenders on the forum and far from a perennial whiner.)

Well now that this is out in the open, I'm expecting articles to see what's in store.

Maybe the CSM ones will be available in the Thousand Sons and DeathGuard books as well? With a few switcheroos and special ones added/removed?

The Legion codexes are still Heretic Astartes.

Considering one of those Grey knight strategems is pay 1cp to take an extra relic or pay 3 for 2 extra relics i think you're overreacting. Considering that is 100% one of there 16 out of 19 unique strategems and it is literally identical to one space marines have.

How do you tell the differences between the various plasma guns in the Hellblaster squad?

Some have cables, and some don't... but that covers 2 types.

I don't know why everyone is so shocked that basic Chaos Space Marines aren't getting any new kits at the moment. It's not that I'm NOT disappointed (looking at you, Havocs kit), but GW is currently pumping a ton of resources into Primaris Marines and, to a lesser degree it seems, Death Guard. With ten codexes coming out by Christmas, they're pumping out a ton of paper to get people up and playing. I really see these first round of codexes as a heavier version of the indexes, with them being more specific to each faction.

Sometime next year, once all the codexes are out, I'd expect to start seeing new supplemental rulebooks. I don't know if they're going to do battle zones, campaigns, or something else, but that's when I'd expect to start seeing more new kits for existing factions. I'd really hope for both updates to existing kits (again, Havocs!) as well as some new units.

I see no reason to panic at this point.

It isn't like the basic CSM kit needs too much. Just mildly resized legs to match Deathwatch/Rubrics etc, and a few weapons options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The terminator kit is garbage though.

With absolute and complete acknowledgment of the frustrations and desires of those who want new kits, and I absolutely agree that more stuff would be nothing but positive, I have to say,

I don't really care.

There's so many Chaos, Marine, Fantasy Chaos and FW bits (plus third party if you're not locked into GW store gaming, have you seen the not-Abaddon Wargames Exclusive have just released?!) that one can build almost anything you want with real freedom. I get that if you want to just glue gak together and get gaming then that's unnecessary complication, but for a special snowflake like me, building a one of a kind unit is very rewarding and quite thematic for the faction.

 Azreal13 wrote:
With absolute and complete acknowledgment of the frustrations and desires of those who want new kits, and I absolutely agree that more stuff would be nothing but positive, I have to say,

I don't really care.

There's so many Chaos, Marine, Fantasy Chaos and FW bits (plus third party if you're not locked into GW store gaming, have you seen the not-Abaddon Wargames Exclusive have just released?!) that one can build almost anything you want with real freedom. I get that if you want to just glue gak together and get gaming then that's unnecessary complication, but for a special snowflake like me, building a one of a kind unit is very rewarding and quite thematic for the faction.

Yea I agree, maybe I am weird but even with a new updated look that checked all the boxes I would still be fishing in my bits box. No need to upgrade the legs when you can get heresy era marks off ebay for fairly cheap and chaos marines for even cheaper.

Yeah, I'm personally okay kitbashing across my army, but CSM could really use at least a core squad that was consistent with most contemporary Marines. From that, you can make most things with the right arms, but without it, you're mostly forced to scrounge from other lines.

I'd actually like a new vehicle upgrade sprue, one that wasn't literally spikes to stick on a normal vehicle, more than anything. One that featured bits that actually integrated into the Rhino and Land Raider chassis rather than hung off the outside like an after thought.

I guess Renegades covers CSM groups that weren't part of the original Traitor Legions, so ones like the Huron Blackheart's Red Corsairs, or the Crimson Slaughter? I sure hope they get some decent love then, not that I play either of those two but for the sake of those who do.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
How do you tell the differences between the various plasma guns in the Hellblaster squad?

Some have cables, and some don't... but that covers 2 types.

There also is a third plasma reservoir at the barrel tip on one of them.

Both Codex Grey Knights and Chaos space marines comes out on the 12th of august with pre-orders on the 5th, so not long to wait for some info since warhammer community should start previewing things for us soon considering that pre orders are up in a today next week.

Where are you seeing a "renegades" distinction?

As a serious Red Corsairs fan, I'd be perfectly happy with just actually getting a legion-style rule. (I still have zero idea why anyone thought Crimson Slaughter needed to exist when there were already red CSMs who were demon-friendly (Word Bearers); red CSMs who liked slaughter (World Eaters); and red CSMs who were recent traitors who became Chaos-y very quickly (Red Corsairs); and even red recent CSMs who like slaughter (Skulltakers-FW)... making up around a third of major CSM varieties. /rant)

In a perfect iteration, I think it would be way cool for they, or generally recent traitors as a whole, to see more modern options vs. the legions, more influenced by HH tech, but I don't think that's going to happen,

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Where are you seeing a "renegades" distinction?

As a serious Red Corsairs fan, I'd be perfectly happy with just actually getting a legion-style rule. (I still have zero idea why anyone thought Crimson Slaughter needed to exist when there were already red CSMs who were demon-friendly (Word Bearers); red CSMs who liked slaughter (World Eaters); and red CSMs who were recent traitors who became Chaos-y very quickly (Red Corsairs); and even red recent CSMs who like slaughter (Skulltakers-FW)... making up around a third of major CSM varieties. /rant)

In a perfect iteration, I think it would be way cool for they, or generally recent traitors as a whole, to see more modern options vs. the legions, more influenced by HH tech, but I don't think that's going to happen,

Theres gonna be a "legion trait" that isn't of anny legion specific for Renegade Chapters.

Warhams-77 wrote:

- 8 Legion Traits (7 for the original Legions + 1 for Renegades)

So let me fully understand this, the adeptus astrates get 10 brand new shiny models for their release in response to this new massive threat and the opening of several large warp rifts chaos get nothing new and not even the plastic havocs kit that has been needed for around 10ish years. Not a chaos player just utterly confused by the reversion of GW after months and months of great releases this just feels severely lack lustre.

Their model production capacity is finite. Their desire is to get as many books out as quick as possible to allow people to field a full blooded, Codex supported, 8th Ed armies as soon as possible.

These two things are not compatible, something has to give.

 daemonish wrote:
So let me fully understand this, the adeptus astrates get 10 brand new shiny models for their release in response to this new massive threat and the opening of several large warp rifts chaos get nothing new and not even the plastic havocs kit that has been needed for around 10ish years. Not a chaos player just utterly confused by the reversion of GW after months and months of great releases this just feels severely lack lustre.

We know Death Guard are getting a bunch of kits with their book in the same month, so there's your new Chaos releases.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Their model production capacity is finite. Their desire is to get as many books out as quick as possible to allow people to field a full blooded, Codex supported, 8th Ed armies as soon as possible.

These two things are not compatible, something has to give.

I fully understand this and in some ways support it, however that's what the indexes are for also with finite production, spread it across the factions until you can produce a proper codex and supporting release rather than saturate with a large marines release plus codex, it doesn't help the game as a whole only marine players. I am sure some will say "space marines are the mainstay for 40K" but a good hero is nothing without a good villain and the CSM have been lacking for a while, they have supposedly just ravaged the imperium and there should be a core release to reflect that.

the focus right now is on the launch of death guard, vanilla chaos is taking a back seat while GW finally gives them proper subfactions

 daemonish wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Their model production capacity is finite. Their desire is to get as many books out as quick as possible to allow people to field a full blooded, Codex supported, 8th Ed armies as soon as possible.

These two things are not compatible, something has to give.

I fully understand this and in some ways support it, however that's what the indexes are for also with finite production, spread it across the factions until you can produce a proper codex and supporting release rather than saturate with a large marines release plus codex, it doesn't help the game as a whole only marine players. I am sure some will say "space marines are the mainstay for 40K" but a good hero is nothing without a good villain and the CSM have been lacking for a while, they have supposedly just ravaged the imperium and there should be a core release to reflect that.

The Indexes only go so far, and once the first Codex is out, the clock starts ticking on how long everyone else will sit sweetly on their hands waiting for their turn.

You also have to consider, whether you liked them or not, that CSM actually got several kits last time they were updated, as well as half a starter's worth of new stuff. It wasn't what many existing players wanted, but it did represent a number of kits. Then we've recently got 1K Sons and, as has been mentioned, are about to get Death Guard.

There's some criminal oversights, like Bezerkers, yes, but Heretic Astartes, as they are in new money, as a range have been getting stuff steadily almost as often as the poster boys.

BrianDavion wrote:
the focus right now is on the launch of death guard, vanilla chaos is taking a back seat while GW finally gives them proper subfactions

I dont think vanilla Chaos knows there is a front seat, theyve been sitting in the back seat for so long, theyre technically in the trailer..

Messiah wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the focus right now is on the launch of death guard, vanilla chaos is taking a back seat while GW finally gives them proper subfactions

I dont think vanilla Chaos knows there is a front seat, theyve been sitting in the back seat for so long, theyre technically in the trailer..

heh fair eneugh, still, in the long run I think this'll be good for chaos,

To be fair, we did see a larger than expected Thousand Sons release on top of the as yet unknown size of the Death Guard release as well. Chaos Space Marines did manage to get a reasonable amount of stuff.

The real question is if the full Thousand Sons and Death Guard lines will be available to the CSM book. For example, will Scarab Termis be in the CSM book or limited to Thousand Sons?

I would also like to think the Thousand Sons release isn't over if GW is serious about making them a stand alone faction. What they have available now is pretty poor power wise and certainly not enough to make them competitive. Unless of course it's out intention to call any CSM army that has a unit of Rubrics or a Sorcerer lord a Thousand Sons list even though actual Thousand Sons units make up less than 25% of the available points or model count. Simply giving Thousand Sons additional psychic powers on top of what we've seen is hardly going to cut it.

I'd imagine the same will be said for Death Guard as well.

I'm pretty sure that "generic" Chaos is gonna have a long wait before they receive anything. Just like AoS with Chaos Undivided, probably they will receive some form of ultra-bad (Ala Archaon=Abaddon) and maybe some kind of ultra-elite unit like the Varanguard, but the rest is gonna go to the Cult-Legions and specific-God chaos units.

BrianDavion wrote:

Messiah wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the focus right now is on the launch of death guard, vanilla chaos is taking a back seat while GW finally gives them proper subfactions

I dont think vanilla Chaos knows there is a front seat, theyve been sitting in the back seat for so long, theyre technically in the trailer..

heh fair eneugh, still, in the long run I think this'll be good for chaos,

Eh. In the long run it will be good for the chosen sub-factions, but bad for the 'main' faction. By the time K & S are invested with random stuff, it'll be time for 9th edition and the 'threat focus' to wander to something else.

My main gripe with the plastic atrophy is the rules cull that will come with our lack of options.

I'd prefer if there were just generic kits with litanies of upgrade sprues for all the chapters/legions/Renegades etc

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I guess Renegades covers CSM groups that weren't part of the original Traitor Legions, so ones like the Huron Blackheart's Red Corsairs, or the Crimson Slaughter? I sure hope they get some decent love then, not that I play either of those two but for the sake of those who do.

I hope they get nothing. Their 4th Ed Chaos Codex caused all the problems for those fighting the Long War. Chaos needs Traitor Legions....nothing else.

 Azreal13 wrote:

 daemonish wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Their model production capacity is finite. Their desire is to get as many books out as quick as possible to allow people to field a full blooded, Codex supported, 8th Ed armies as soon as possible.

These two things are not compatible, something has to give.

I fully understand this and in some ways support it, however that's what the indexes are for also with finite production, spread it across the factions until you can produce a proper codex and supporting release rather than saturate with a large marines release plus codex, it doesn't help the game as a whole only marine players. I am sure some will say "space marines are the mainstay for 40K" but a good hero is nothing without a good villain and the CSM have been lacking for a while, they have supposedly just ravaged the imperium and there should be a core release to reflect that.

The Indexes only go so far, and once the first Codex is out, the clock starts ticking on how long everyone else will sit sweetly on their hands waiting for their turn.

You also have to consider, whether you liked them or not, that CSM actually got several kits last time they were updated, as well as half a starter's worth of new stuff. It wasn't what many existing players wanted, but it did represent a number of kits. Then we've recently got 1K Sons and, as has been mentioned, are about to get Death Guard.

There's some criminal oversights, like Bezerkers, yes, but Heretic Astartes, as they are in new money, as a range have been getting stuff steadily almost as often as the poster boys.

But those kits were released last time not this time, again yes to an extent totally agree once the first codex hits there is an invisible ticking clock where everyone wants their armies codex now. Personally I would rather wait another 3 months for a codex and associated release than get my army's codex right now and nothing else. I am sure the new book has the potential to fix issues that currently exist with the army but how long until they release the next book? less than a year, 3 years? Just doesn't make sense to me. As far as sub factions go, yeah that's great if you want to play sub factions, but if you are inspired by the recent books and think "oh, you now what I really like this Abbadon guy maybe I'll start a black legion army, they should have some awesome brand new stuff at release" then the release comes and you get zero new models compared to the 10 brand new marine releases you will probably just stick with what you have. Models are what sell new armies 90% of the time not new books, unless you are a competitive player looking for the next Game changing unit/stratagem. It's short sighted poor planning on GW's behalf.

The miniature designers including Jes Goodwin have said in recent interviews that they consider several of 40k miniature lines/ranges/factions to be in a state there is not much they can do with them creatively - they are done, perfected. Aspect Warriors for example won't get new miniatures. They have no interest in redoing these. So it won't happen that current ranges get updated. I also got from these interviews that they now (to be precise in the past 3 and in the next 3 years of development) have both the creative energy and the time to make new models for factions already in the fluff of 40k but lacking miniatures and also entirely new factions. I think it means Death Guard but also the other major Chaos Legions (World Eaters and Emperors Children) will get new miniatures. Plus a new Xenos race or two. I consider the skull on the cover of the Xenos books to be a teaser. Also the two logos hidden on top of the circle of faction symbols. While this is not a thread about possible future xenos releases, these minimal updates are in my opinion pointing at major releases of other new ranges. They support the formers' playability but expand the game creatively with new stuff. There should be a larger Nurgle Daemons release ahead, with new models.

To be honest, I'd call the CSM range far from perfected. It's a mess of 3-4 different design philosophies with the undivided units alone.

That's not perfected. That's a mess that no one knows how to steer in the right direction.

Aspect warriors might get new miniatures in time - but not as a priority release. The issue with them is Finecast rather than their actual aesthetic.

For me the only thing i'm worried about is the standard csm kit. I'm fairly confident every god is getting their release so we dont have to worry about bezerkers and noise marines in the future. However I am worried that there will be no update to the standard csm box. They should be upscaled just like the primaris, TS and DG, release it as a Renegades Squad, for players who do not follow one god in particular.

I can't look at normal marines again so I am sure as hell I won't ever be buying the csm box ever again, I just couldn't bare the sight of those stunty chaos next to the taller TS and DG.

I know we can just green stuff warp primaris marines for the time being but ya know.

 warboss wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
How do you tell the differences between the various plasma guns in the Hellblaster squad?

Some have cables, and some don't... but that covers 2 types.

There also is a third plasma reservoir at the barrel tip on one of them.

Does this prevent unexpected failures resulting in life altering consequences?

I'd ding you for being off-topic....

But that was really funny.

Let's keep it on topic from here on out, though.

Lorek wrote:I'd ding you for being off-topic....

But that was really funny.

Let's keep it on topic from here on out, though.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself

unmercifulconker wrote:For me the only thing i'm worried about is the standard csm kit. I'm fairly confident every god is getting their release so we dont have to worry about bezerkers and noise marines in the future. However I am worried that there will be no update to the standard csm box. They should be upscaled just like the primaris, TS and DG, release it as a Renegades Squad, for players who do not follow one god in particular.

I can't look at normal marines again so I am sure as hell I won't ever be buying the csm box ever again, I just couldn't bare the sight of those stunty chaos next to the taller TS and DG.

I know we can just green stuff warp primaris marines for the time being but ya know.

Honestly this doesn't make sense and I doubt will happen. For one thing, the majority of CSM are from the heresy. Then there is already the issue the primairs marines already have, they made like 2500 total yet every chapter got some... So what they all got a guy or two? Completely stupid oversight on there part but now you want to have some of that tiny stock go traitor? It just makes the problem worse and compounds it by puting it on both sides.

I honestly hope the primaris guys branch of into their own thing, I know some like them, but just as many players hate them. To me they are done mastergully but the increased size just looks like a model kit in the wrong scale. It's like you brought a 1:35 scale tank to a game against everyone elses 1:45. But, I don't mind so long as GW doesn't suddenly blow up everyone elses stuff just because of the new guys. We will have to wait an see how the sales steer the ship though.

The CSM kit really isn't that bad btw, I have grey hunter kits, tac kits and CSM kits on my desk in front of me and people definitely like to band wagon on the standard CSM kit. If people took the time to really inspect the kit it's not bad at all. I understand the leg thing, but I don't expect GW to recut a kit for 1-2mm, if it bothers you that much, do like I suggested earlier and buy Calth legs off ebay, they are cheap as chips and are actual armor marks CSM would wear.

Warhams-77 wrote:
The miniature designers including Jes Goodwin have said in recent interviews that they consider several of 40k miniature lines/ranges/factions to be in a state there is not much they can do with them creatively - they are done, perfected. Aspect Warriors for example won't get new miniatures. They have no interest in redoing these. So it won't happen that current ranges get updated. I also got from these interviews that they now (to be precise in the past 3 and in the next 3 years of development) have both the creative energy and the time to make new models for factions already in the fluff of 40k but lacking miniatures and also entirely new factions. I think it means Death Guard but also the other major Chaos Legions (World Eaters and Emperors Children) will get new miniatures. Plus a new Xenos race or two. I consider the skull on the cover of the Xenos books to be a teaser. Also the two logos hidden on top of the circle of faction symbols. While this is not a thread about possible future xenos releases, these minimal updates are in my opinion pointing at major releases of other new ranges. They support the formers' playability but expand the game creatively with new stuff. There should be a larger Nurgle Daemons release ahead, with new models.

Can you provide a link to this interview? Doesn't sound like something their designers would say at all.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Lorek wrote:I'd ding you for being off-topic....

But that was really funny.

Let's keep it on topic from here on out, though.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself

unmercifulconker wrote:For me the only thing i'm worried about is the standard csm kit. I'm fairly confident every god is getting their release so we dont have to worry about bezerkers and noise marines in the future. However I am worried that there will be no update to the standard csm box. They should be upscaled just like the primaris, TS and DG, release it as a Renegades Squad, for players who do not follow one god in particular.

I can't look at normal marines again so I am sure as hell I won't ever be buying the csm box ever again, I just couldn't bare the sight of those stunty chaos next to the taller TS and DG.

I know we can just green stuff warp primaris marines for the time being but ya know.

Honestly this doesn't make sense and I doubt will happen. For one thing, the majority of CSM are from the heresy. Then there is already the issue the primairs marines already have, they made like 2500 total yet every chapter got some... So what they all got a guy or two? Completely stupid oversight on there part but now you want to have some of that tiny stock go traitor? It just makes the problem worse and compounds it by puting it on both sides.

I honestly hope the primaris guys branch of into their own thing, I know some like them, but just as many players hate them. To me they are done mastergully but the increased size just looks like a model kit in the wrong scale. It's like you brought a 1:35 scale tank to a game against everyone elses 1:45. But, I don't mind so long as GW doesn't suddenly blow up everyone elses stuff just because of the new guys. We will have to wait an see how the sales steer the ship though.

The CSM kit really isn't that bad btw, I have grey hunter kits, tac kits and CSM kits on my desk in front of me and people definitely like to band wagon on the standard CSM kit. If people took the time to really inspect the kit it's not bad at all. I understand the leg thing, but I don't expect GW to recut a kit for 1-2mm, if it bothers you that much, do like I suggested earlier and buy Calth legs off ebay, they are cheap as chips and are actual armor marks CSM would wear.

there where considerably more then 2500 Primaris Marines RC, 20,000 where present at the Triumph of Raukos alone.

regarding chaos kits, I agree chaos could use some work, however 90% of what chaos needs per everyone here, are upgrades of old kits. we don't nesscarily need to wait for a codex or not for GW to release a new CSM kit. what I'd really like to see though are new Havocs, there is a despirate need for a plastic havok kit. right now CSM players BAAAASICLY have to buy devestators and "chaosyify them"

Confirmed release by the community site

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/30/two-new-codexes-coming-next-week/

I didn't say the kit was bad,I just want upscaled chaos marines .

And that heresy of Primaris turning traitor, now that would be silly.

Posted 30/07/2017

Two new codexes, coming next week

One codex is pretty big news – but sometimes that’s just not enough, so how about two in one week? This coming Saturday, you’ll be able to pre-order the new codexes for the Chaos Space Marines and the Grey Knights.



Codex: Chaos Space Marines brings some of the oldest enemies of the Imperium fully into the new edition of Warhammer 40,000 with loads of new content. The Heretic Astartes are an ancient and terrifyingly powerful force, and more so in the age of the Dark Imperium as they are empowered not only by centuries of hate and an arsenal of baleful relics but now also by the dark energies of the warp bleeding into the wider galaxy from the Cicatrix Maledictum.

The new codex represents the Chaos Space Marines in their ascendancy, allowing you to collect a force that reflects both your favourite units and Legions while remaining true to the background. Like Chapter Tactics, the Chaos Legions are getting new rules of their own to represent how they fight, as well as unique Stratagems, Warlord Traits and artefacts. You’ll be able to build powerful themed armies, from rebellious packs of Renegades to furious forces of World Eaters, and from terrifying battalions of Night Lords to the depraved duelists of the Emperor’s Children. There are 9 psychic powers too, as well as updated points costs, datasheets and much much more – we’ll be taking a closer look at each Legion every day next week, starting tomorrow.

[...]


The new codexes and units will be available to pre-order on August the 5th – in the meantime, we’ll be previewing all of them right here on the Warhammer Community website. You can get rules for the Hellblasters and the Intercessors in the new Space Marines codex, or start collecting Grey Knights or Chaos Space Marines today.

Yeah, in some ways Calth and Prospero could be considered the new generic chaos marine kits.

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Yeah, in some ways Calth and Prospero could be considered the new generic chaos marine kits.

yeah the Mark 3 armor is pretty much MADE to be Iron Warrior.

One could read between the lines of that blurb and read it as "we acknowledge they've been a bit weak for too long and we've given them a much needed shot in the arm."

But it's probably just rhetoric, what are the odds of CSM being an early edition release and actually being good?

 Azreal13 wrote:
One could read between the lines of that blurb and read it as "we acknowledge they've been a bit weak for too long and we've given them a much needed shot in the arm."

But it's probably just rhetoric, what are the odds of CSM being an early edition release and actually being good?

I'll bet you 1,000,000 Internets that CSM will be just fine.

Given the somehwat vague nature of what different people regard as "fine" that's not really a bet one can really take.

I hope they push about everything normal SM do not have access to. Playing World Eaters without Forge World currently feels like playing SM with Khorne Berzerkers, Daemon Princes and Heldrakes... At least thats what feels viable.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Given the somehwat vague nature of what different people regard as "fine" that's not really a bet one can really take.

They're "fine" being a punching bag for the good guys!

well previously the problem with chaos has been that being made at a differant time form standard marines and under a differant design philophesy they useally came out worse for it. now it looks like CSM and C:SM where designed together so there's a good chance they'll be on even footing.

TLDR if chaos sucks vanilla marines likely will too

Any leaks or rumors of the Iron Warriors legion tactics yet?

DCannon4Life wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
One could read between the lines of that blurb and read it as "we acknowledge they've been a bit weak for too long and we've given them a much needed shot in the arm."

But it's probably just rhetoric, what are the odds of CSM being an early edition release and actually being good?

I'll bet you 1,000,000 Internets that CSM will be just fine.

Wonder if you made that bet back in 6th too.

 ph34r wrote:
Any leaks or rumors of the Iron Warriors legion tactics yet?

No leaks of any kind so far. They're previewing a Legion each day starting tomorrow so information is gonna start rolling in soon.

Arachnofiend wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Any leaks or rumors of the Iron Warriors legion tactics yet?

No leaks of any kind so far. They're previewing a Legion each day starting tomorrow so information is gonna start rolling in soon.

YAY! I assume black Legion'll be first

BrianDavion wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Any leaks or rumors of the Iron Warriors legion tactics yet?

No leaks of any kind so far. They're previewing a Legion each day starting tomorrow so information is gonna start rolling in soon.

YAY! I assume black Legion'll be first

That's a ridiculously safe bet.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Any leaks or rumors of the Iron Warriors legion tactics yet?

No leaks of any kind so far. They're previewing a Legion each day starting tomorrow so information is gonna start rolling in soon.

YAY! I assume black Legion'll be first

That's a ridiculously safe bet.

maybe but hey! I'll give great odds!

Given the speed this came out, I imagine most of the fluff will be taken from the existing chaos books and the new 8th edition rulebook. Don't expect any new units, so just the relics (artifacts), the strategems, legion tactics and possibly some changes in the costs of some stuff. (There were some reduction in costs in the new space marine codex).

I would still buy it though. lol

 Azreal13 wrote:
One could read between the lines of that blurb and read it as "we acknowledge they've been a bit weak for too long and we've given them a much needed shot in the arm."

But it's probably just rhetoric, what are the odds of CSM being an early edition release and actually being good?

I'd say that coming out after Codex Space Marines is a good thing as it indicates they were made about the same time. So we should at least be at least on par with them. For the same reason I'm glad Grey Knights is coming out before Chaos Daemons. So they have time to re-balance them if the GK end up to strong vs Daemons. But I'm not to worried since GW has proven their serious about trying to balance the game. Honestly, I'm quite happy with how we play even with the Chaos Index. Its not perfect ofcourse but most of the real issues were corrected with the changes to the new edition.

It will be interesting to see what they do with the Legion traits and stratagems though, since C:SM didn't just port over their old Chapter Tactics. I doubt we'll just get ported over Chaos Legions abilities either. I'm guessing Emperor's Children will be completely different now. Since I don't see us getting FNP back in any form. Meanwhile everyone has Split-fire by default, and Dark Eldar already have a "Combat Drug" mechanic. Maybe a stratagem that boosts a single Noise Marine units shooting by +1 strength for a CP? The blurb says it'll represent our "depraved duelists", not sure how they could represent that with challenges being gone. Maybe allowing EC characters to perform a Heroic Intervention from greater distance? I just hope that the psychic powers aren't pants, that the Icon gains a useful ability, and marks actually do something.

Woo hoo! Looks like the GW Community site will be doing Legion focus Articles starting tomorrow!

Can't wait for the Sons of Nostramo!

 Azreal13 wrote:
Given the somehwat vague nature of what different people regard as "fine" that's not really a bet one can really take.

"Black Legion got that?! It's totally worse than anything SM got!"

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Given the somehwat vague nature of what different people regard as "fine" that's not really a bet one can really take.

"Black Legion got that?! It's totally worse than anything SM got!"

true, black Legion would have a 6+ feel no pain, and the ability to re-roll charge distances, and people would complain because they "only" got a combination of the two "worst" chapter tactics

The standard-kit isn't that bad. The main problem of the Chaos line is that you have to go to 3rd party producers to get your Combi- and heavy weapons. I'm really curious if Chaos will get Combiweapons in the codex outside of terminators - as our kits don't have any. (Don't have the raptor kit though, so I might be wrong.)
Also, there has't been a kit for Chosen. Yes, Havocs are old and got downgraded to finecast, but Chosen never even existed as a kit.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
The standard-kit isn't that bad. The main problem of the Chaos line is that you have to go to 3rd party producers to get your Combi- and heavy weapons. I'm really curious if Chaos will get Combiweapons in the codex outside of terminators - as our kits don't have any. (Don't have the raptor kit though, so I might be wrong.)
Also, there has't been a kit for Chosen. Yes, Havocs are old and got downgraded to finecast, but Chosen never even existed as a kit.

I have to disagree here. I think the standard kit i HORRIBLE. Most people agree that the helmets are fugly, but for me it is the hands. It looks like they have huge (HUGE!) gloves on. I hate them. Also we really need Chaos Marines that are bigger. Not big like Primaris marines, but same size as the new Death Guard and the Rubric Marines.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
(Don't have the raptor kit though, so I might be wrong.)

You arent wrong, the raptor/warp talon kit includes no combi weapons.

War of Sigmar

Hello everyone

by reading the white dwarf with a mag glass a friend saw this :

-Night lord trait should be : -1 ld by nl unit around you (6" and stack)
-Iron warriors : +1 in cover and -1 vs covers
-World Bearers : Reroll moral.
-Emperors Childrend : Always pile in first (WTF?)
-Black legion : +1 ld and a bonus for advancing and shooting (too small)
-World eaters : Pass all morale while in melee
-Alpha legion : Deep strike at 12" from ennemies.

Night lord stratagem is : -1 to hit.

ps : Saw someone on FB sharing nearly the same sighting.

/cheers.
bob.

Is it just me or is the Iron Warrior legion tactic amazing?

(maybe just compared to the others? night lords, word bearers, emperor's children, and world eaters all seem like absolute garbage?)

 ph34r wrote:
Is it just me or is the Iron Warrior legion tactic amazing?

(maybe just compared to the others? night lords, word bearers, emperor's children, and world eaters all seem like absolute garbage?)

yes if this is true, and I hope it isn't, each tactic is utter garbage except for Iron Warriors, which would have been middle of the pack in the Space Marine book.

 ph34r wrote:
Is it just me or is the Iron Warrior legion tactic amazing?

(maybe just compared to the others? night lords, word bearers, emperor's children, and world eaters all seem like absolute garbage?)

Night Lords can be nasty as hell, assuming you can take out LD boosting/ignore LD modifier models first.
World Eaters is fantastic, dunno what you're on about. Whenever they're in a combat--they are immune to Morale tests.
Alpha Legion is interesting.
Iron Warriors are definitely good.
Word Bearers will require a bit more detail.
Same goes with Emperor's Children--I think it's meant to be that they always strike first, even when charged.
Black Legion is going to need more detail as well.

Guess we will find out how accurate that is later today with the first Legion preview.

If that is the Iron Warriors trait, the Imperial Fists(and my Crimson Fists) will wreck them. Bring it on Caution Tape Marines!

I'm eagerly awaiting this. Chaos has always been my favorite story in Warhammer 40k, but too often has had lackluster rules. This will determine if I play regular CSM with a traitor legion or I wait until September-ish when the Death Guard get their full releases, because so far I'm trying to decide between Black Legion (I love the Sons of Horus fluff, easily my favorite 30k legion, and reading Talon of Horus gave me a newfound respect for Abaddon) or doing Death Guard (which has the bonus of cool new miniatures and a primarch in the near future, and their fluff is pretty good to where I'd certainly consider them in 30k as well)

The NL LD debuff can be nasty. Shoot a unit with butcher cannons, then charge with raptors and a lord for -5 LD? Yes please.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If that is the Iron Warriors trait, the Imperial Fists(and my Crimson Fists) will wreck them. Bring it on Caution Tape Marines!

If that's the Iron Warriors trait, I would have preferred Imperial Fists to have a comparably even one so that they don't end up being completely offensive while Iron Warriors get to enjoy both offensive and defensive bonuses.

I remain unconvinced. This army trait stuff is bogus.

I wonder what my Black Legion will get. Are they pretending to be Eldar? Figures that would be the one that's not legible...

 Geifer wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
If that is the Iron Warriors trait, the Imperial Fists(and my Crimson Fists) will wreck them. Bring it on Caution Tape Marines!

If that's the Iron Warriors trait, I would have preferred Imperial Fists to have a comparably even one so that they don't end up being completely offensive while Iron Warriors get to enjoy both offensive and defensive bonuses.

I agree. Especially since the IF are supposed to be the defensive ones while the IW were the offensive ones. Still, the IW trait is pretty good.

Come back tomorrow, when we’ll be looking at the masters of siege in the 41st Millennium – the Iron Warriors.

That's an excellent trait. You just need to get to combat.

They let slip that Possessed are one of the most improved units in the new codex by getting +1W at the same points costs.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
The NL LD debuff can be nasty. Shoot a unit with butcher cannons, then charge with raptors and a lord for -5 LD? Yes please.

Leadership is less a factor now than it ever was. I played six games at the BAO this weekend, and morale came up exactly once- when my last raptor ran away.

The trait might be useful if you're charging large units of...what, tau?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

DCannon4Life wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
One could read between the lines of that blurb and read it as "we acknowledge they've been a bit weak for too long and we've given them a much needed shot in the arm."

But it's probably just rhetoric, what are the odds of CSM being an early edition release and actually being good?

I'll bet you 1,000,000 Internets that CSM will be just fine.

Wonder if you made that bet back in 6th too.

Didn't, and definitely wouldn't. But I'm standing by this bet. Dust off your prodigal sons and prepare to set the galaxy on fire. (Also: Death to the False Emperor!)

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
The NL LD debuff can be nasty. Shoot a unit with butcher cannons, then charge with raptors and a lord for -5 LD? Yes please.

Leadership is less a factor now than it ever was. I played six games at the BAO this weekend, and morale came up exactly once- when my last raptor ran away.

The trait might be useful if you're charging large units of...what, tau?

How many units were you giving with -5 LD debuffs to?

Emperor's Children look like they will be fun.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
The NL LD debuff can be nasty. Shoot a unit with butcher cannons, then charge with raptors and a lord for -5 LD? Yes please.

Leadership is less a factor now than it ever was. I played six games at the BAO this weekend, and morale came up exactly once- when my last raptor ran away.

The trait might be useful if you're charging large units of...what, tau?

How many units were you giving with -5 LD debuffs to?

None, but several had -2 LD debuffs due to raptors and spawn. I'll give you a break down of what I faced.

Orks- morale useless. Units either have a LD of 20+, or fail and lose a d3 models maximum due to warboss.

Imperial Guard- morale useless. Units lose 1 model maximum due to Commissar

Admech- Might help make a robot run away if you kill one and get the -5 you talked about. Otherwise the min squads of vanguard are dying to a charge anyway.

Ultramarines- Against the particular list I faced, useless. Armor and min squads of scouts. Against 10 man tactical squads, -5 would be very useful. You'll never see that in a competitive setting, but I play casual most of the time anyway.

Tau- would have helped against crisis teams for sure.

So, Word bearers get ATSKNF.. i'm ok with that actually. Now Possessed need to become troops for WB & (the rumored) +1W..

*please don't destory my hopes dakkadakka*

Well, possessed do get +1 W.

The EC are up first. They get always strikes first (because slaanesh, apparently), lose the dying shot thing from the index, and can use their strategem to get an infantry or bike unit to fire.

And have a psychic power that makes them deathguard (Ignore wounds on a 5+)

Yawn. Characterized as a melee army now because... whatever.*
Iron Warriors next.



*Seriously though, why this urge to pigeon-hole armies? Especially with the way the strategem and trait actually work. You want combined arms all the way down- a completely melee focused army would just be stupid.

Well, that's a surprise Emperor's Children right out the gate this time.

Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

Delightful Agonies:

Low warp charge access to 5+ FNP for a turn, is solid.

Endless Cacophony:

2CP is kind of expensive but imagine a Havoc squad firing lascannons on turn one! Shame it doesn't effect Helbrutes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:


The EC are up first. They get always strikes first (because slaanesh, apparently), lose the dying shot thing from the index, and can use their strategem to get an infantry or bike unit to fire.

Where are you getting that they lost "Music of the Apocalypse" that is a Noise Marine specific ability; and they don't reference it at all in the article?

 Sersi wrote:
Well, that's a surprise Emperor's Children right out the gate this time.

Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

I disagree, the ability is far less useful in slaanesh daemons since the opponent will always fallback so you never get to use it, and single counter charger unit allot of shoting armies pack will hit you first anyway.

In emperor's children it is a defensive ability kind of similar to the salamander one, since it saves you CPs on using counter assault stratagem (though it isn't anywhere near as universally useful)

The rest of the stratagems and psychic powers are both incredible, anyone else looking forward to using a full combi plasma terminator squad ? 40 plasma shots : P

Voss wrote:
Well, possessed do get +1 W.

The EC are up first. They get always strikes first (because slaanesh, apparently), lose the dying shot thing from the index, and can use their strategem to get an infantry or bike unit to fire.

And have a psychic power that makes them deathguard (Ignore wounds on a 5+)

Yawn. Characterized as a melee army now because... whatever.*
Iron Warriors next.



*Seriously though, why this urge to pigeon-hole armies? Especially with the way the strategem and trait actually work. You want combined arms all the way down- a completely melee focused army would just be stupid.

Theres a limited amount of "generalistic" rules before they basically all look the same. Slaanesh has always been a meele focused God. But where Khorne is all about brute force Slaanesh is about reflexes and speed.
Fulgrim was one of the best primarchs in meele. Just ask Guilliman.

if anything EC always had the problem in 40K that they had CC oriented rules while their iconic unit was a shooty one. It seems they can handle both now.

Hello everyone, I play Emperor's Children and I can't believe we've finally got some proper rules. The only thing I haven't seen fixed is the doom sirens (which were D3 shots last I saw but the points might get fixed, 22 pts is a bit steep.) I just wanted to point out a full squad of noisey boys armed with sonic blasters puts out 60 S4 shots, plus 60 with "endless cacophony", and then finally getting to shoot another 3 times for every noisey marine that got shot down. Noise Marines that die during the psychic and charge phase can direct their shots at a character, and if they die during the fight phase they can accrue additional attacks because DttFE triggers with their shooting attacks during fight phase.

So if an entire unit of noise Marines (20) dies in the fight phase I get approximately 90 more shots directed at your imperium character. 60 at anyone else. Prescience +1 to hit = +1 to DttFE, Icon of excess +1 to DttFE. So if I roll statistically I might be able to get 210 S4 24" shots from a 20-man squad of noise Marines. If I roll perfectly I get 240 shots.

 Galas wrote:

Voss wrote:
Well, possessed do get +1 W.

The EC are up first. They get always strikes first (because slaanesh, apparently), lose the dying shot thing from the index, and can use their strategem to get an infantry or bike unit to fire.

And have a psychic power that makes them deathguard (Ignore wounds on a 5+)

Yawn. Characterized as a melee army now because... whatever.*
Iron Warriors next.



*Seriously though, why this urge to pigeon-hole armies? Especially with the way the strategem and trait actually work. You want combined arms all the way down- a completely melee focused army would just be stupid.

Theres a limited amount of "generalistic" rules before they basically all look the same. Slaanesh has always been a meele focused God. But where Khorne is all about brute force Slaanesh is about reflexes and speed.
Fulgrim was one of the best primarchs in meele. Just ask Guilliman.

I don't even see where he says they're getting characterized as melee. The strategem is ranged and the psychic power applies to any phase. If 1 out of 3 things makes them a melee army...

The Warhammer Community post states it:

"Much like Chapter tactics, these are designed to represent the unique ways each Chaos Legion fights, from stealthy armies like the Alpha Legion, to full-on melee armies like the Emperor’s Children, who we’re looking at today."

 Rydria wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Well, that's a surprise Emperor's Children right out the gate this time.

Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

I disagree, the ability is far less useful in slaanesh daemons since the opponent will always fallback so you never get to use it, and single counter charger unit allot of shoting armies pack will hit you first anyway.

In emperor's children it is a defensive ability kind of similar to the salamander one, since it saves you CPs on using counter assault stratagem (though it isn't anywhere near as universally useful)

The rest of the stratagems and psychic powers are both incredible, anyone else looking forward to using a full combi plasma terminator squad ? 40 plasma shots : P

People always forget to look offensively and defensively at the same time. People thought the Ultramarines ability was useless vs range armies, but I pointed out it can be used offensively as well in that thread while it kept going.

When GW says possessed are the most improved unit i hope they dont mean just the 1 extra wound -_-

 EverlastingNewb wrote:
So, Word bearers get ATSKNF.. i'm ok with that actually. Now Possessed need to become troops for WB & (the rumored) +1W..

*please don't destory my hopes dakkadakka*

I have to assume that the Word Bearers are going to get a relic or stratagem that lets them more easily summon Daemons to the field.

 Dayknight wrote:

When GW says possessed are the most improved unit i hope they dont mean just the 1 extra wound -_-

That doubles their survivability. That's a pretty big improvement

The startegem is also one of the best I've seen especially if you make units that will benefit from it, like large units with special/heavy weapons.

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 Dayknight wrote:

When GW says possessed are the most improved unit i hope they dont mean just the 1 extra wound -_-

That doubles their survivability. That's a pretty big improvement

Doubles their survivability vs boltguns. I mean an extra wound is nothing to sneeze at but I think the people who like possessed would be happier with something that made them more effective at their role.

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 Dayknight wrote:

When GW says possessed are the most improved unit i hope they dont mean just the 1 extra wound -_-

That doubles their survivability. That's a pretty big improvement

Doubles their survivability vs boltguns. I mean an extra wound is nothing to sneeze at but I think the people who like possessed would be happier with something that made them more effective at their role.

I actually think 2 wounds finally puts them in "useable" territory which indeed quite improved from unusable.

Noise Marines and the whole Slaanesh battle doctrine has always been a little weird, not being able to work out whether it wanted to be shooty or choppy and trying to do both. It seems now that they may be able to do just that - both. Sonic weaponry encourages you to sit back and shoot, or possibly advance and shoot down your foe, but the rules for EC generally rewarded you for getting into combat and showing what you'v got. With these rules a Noise Marine squad can now take all that sonic weaponry and shoot the crap out stuff with excellent firepower (huge RoF, cover ignoring and the potential for a bonus round of shooting). Then they get stuck into combat, hitting first on the charge. If your opponent chooses to stay in combat, you go first again in their turn. If they disengage you shoot the crud out them again on your next turn. And if at any point your models die they just pump out more shots/attacks. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't vs EC Noise Marines. Without dedicated combat weapons Noise Marines might not seem great in CC but when you're always going first you get to leverage more out of every attack. they might not mow through infantry like Zerkers but they're like a snowball in CC, the longer they remain in combat the more their advantages can be leveraged. And it doesn't matter if they die, in fact you may well want them to die so they can finish off nearby units before they get to do anything more.

I think the EC have a very nice set of advantages that make them quite potent. They're not as obvious as WE's CC murderfest or DG's sheer ability to hang in there but overall they get enough to be potent, and quite well-rounded.

I'm looking forward to the AL reveal. If that 12" infiltrate is real (and I expect it would be, why Gw would give AL anything but infiltrate is beyond me) then it looks like they didn't want an entire AL gunline within rapid fire range the moment the game begins. The (FW) AL Lord Arkhos characterthough gets infiltrate 9" away, as do SM scouts. I'd be a bit peeved if SM scouts get better infiltrate rules than the supposed masters of infiltrate. Despite the prospect of having everything in RF range off the bat I think AL deserve to get a 9" infiltrate. They're a one-trick army, once the game begins they've lost all their special abilities. Unless this legion trait carries over to dreadnoughts and bikers, in which case holy hell! But I doubt it. Likely (non Terminator/jump pack) infantry only, and knowing GW it might not even be all infantry.

Seems they're gonna save the BL till last. Announcing EC and IW first seems like they're revealing the lesser played legions first. Wonder if WB or NL will be third/fourth?

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 Dayknight wrote:

When GW says possessed are the most improved unit i hope they dont mean just the 1 extra wound -_-

That doubles their survivability. That's a pretty big improvement

Doubles their survivability vs boltguns. I mean an extra wound is nothing to sneeze at but I think the people who like possessed would be happier with something that made them more effective at their role.

You're forgetting that people are taking Plasma Guns, which now need overcharging.

Yeah it doesn't help vs Lascannons and Melta Guns. So?

 Colpicklejar wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:

 Dayknight wrote:

When GW says possessed are the most improved unit i hope they dont mean just the 1 extra wound -_-

That doubles their survivability. That's a pretty big improvement

Doubles their survivability vs boltguns. I mean an extra wound is nothing to sneeze at but I think the people who like possessed would be happier with something that made them more effective at their role.

They are already pretty good at hitting things, since they effectively have power axes, they just aren't worth 22pts with only 1 wound.

Anyone got a random number / letter generator? GW is putting 3 random letters and numbers at the end of their preview image links now but I feel like someone can crack em and reveal the rest of the week's stuff.

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/40kLegionFocus_EmpChi_Strat3cf.jpg

 andysonic1 wrote:
Anyone got a random number / letter generator? GW is putting 3 random letters and numbers at the end of their preview image links now but I feel like someone can crack em and reveal the rest of the week's stuff.

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/40kLegionFocus_EmpChi_Strat3cf.jpg

Assuming you got the other part of the URL correct that is still over 46,000 combinations with no uppercase letters. Other links look to be up to 7 characters with uppercase. I could make something, but it just wouldn't be fast enough.

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/40kLegionFocus_EmpChi_DelAg6fcsj.jpg

2 wounds isn't as good as it looks. There're a lot of 2 damage weapons flying around in 8th, weapons that often find their damage potential gated by models with only 1 wound. Adding Possessed to the ranks of choice units to aim those 2 damage at won't make them more alluring to take. With how much plasma people are throwing around Possessed aren't going to last much longer than they do now. They need more attacks to be competitive. 1d3 is too low when the majority of the time you'll get 1-2. this isn't enough for a proper CC unit. Chosen get 2 attacks base and they're not specifically a CC unit... Their attacks should really be 1+d3, or 2d3, so you get a minimum of 2 and a potential of 4 (or 6 if they doubled the roll). They should be a poor-mans Zerker squad, decent CC for those on a budget or not wanting to dirty themselves with Khorne's taint! In fact they should be the second best CC unit in the codex, with the likes of Mutilators, Maulers and Hellbrutes being more specialised heavy hitters and with Raptors/Warp Talons being your tactical assault/scalpel units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
Anyone got a random number / letter generator? GW is putting 3 random letters and numbers at the end of their preview image links now but I feel like someone can crack em and reveal the rest of the week's stuff.

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/40kLegionFocus_EmpChi_Strat3cf.jpg

Assuming you got the other part of the URL correct that is still over 46,000 combinations with no uppercase letters. Other links look to be up to 7 characters with uppercase. I could make something, but it just wouldn't be fast enough.

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/40kLegionFocus_EmpChi_DelAg6fcsj.jpg

The end of that Delightful Agonies url looks like it's listing this psychic power as the sixth on the table (at least that's what I, wagering). This leaves only 4 letters following for somebody to crack! The tricky part is predicting what these new abilities are called....

Warhams-77 wrote:
War of Sigmar

Hello everyone

by reading the white dwarf with a mag glass a friend saw this :

-Night lord trait should be : -1 ld by nl unit around you (6" and stack)
-Iron warriors : +1 in cover and -1 vs covers
-World Bearers : Reroll moral.
-Emperors Childrend : Always pile in first (WTF?)
-Black legion : +1 ld and a bonus for advancing and shooting (too small)
-World eaters : Pass all morale while in melee
-Alpha legion : Deep strike at 12" from ennemies.

Night lord stratagem is : -1 to hit.

ps : Saw someone on FB sharing nearly the same sighting.

/cheers.
bob.

So with this increasingly looking accurate, I must say that I'm a little bit disappointed in the World Eaters bonus. To me the issue is not how well Khorne units do in combat, but surviving the time they spend out of combat. So before they get into combat they have to weather one to two turns of shooting. And then they charge and face overwatch, and either wreck face (if enough survive) or do nothing (if they have already been shot up). Then the enemy falls back on their turn and they get shot again. So of these 4-5 player turns (2-3 your turn, 2-3 your opponents') they spend one in combat, where it is reasonable to think that they've either wrecked face or done not much. Either way, the threat they face more comes from opponents falling back and then opening with the shooting again. So that's only 1/4-1/5 of the time at most that they will get any benefit from this ability.

The issue I find with close combat in 8th (particularly as Khorne) is not flunking morale when I'm there, but simply weathering the shooting from yet another shooting edition. This bonus doesn't really help that.

I can see it being useful if you get shot then jump into combat. That way you avoid taking any morale casualties from shooting.
Morale is done at the end of the turn, right?

It kind of seems like the WE bonus should be reversed that they don't take morale from shooting but do from CC since them losing in CC should be unthinkable and thus morally devastating but shooting is cowardice and should be ignored.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Well, that's a surprise Emperor's Children right out the gate this time.

Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

I disagree, the ability is far less useful in slaanesh daemons since the opponent will always fallback so you never get to use it, and single counter charger unit allot of shoting armies pack will hit you first anyway.

In emperor's children it is a defensive ability kind of similar to the salamander one, since it saves you CPs on using counter assault stratagem (though it isn't anywhere near as universally useful)

The rest of the stratagems and psychic powers are both incredible, anyone else looking forward to using a full combi plasma terminator squad ? 40 plasma shots : P

People always forget to look offensively and defensively at the same time. People thought the Ultramarines ability was useless vs range armies, but I pointed out it can be used offensively as well in that thread while it kept going.

Your right I was sleeping on the defensive potential. So we're back to shooting and then counter charging like from 3.5 - 7th. Good stuff.

 buddha wrote:
It kind of seems like the WE bonus should be reversed that they don't take morale from shooting but do from CC since them losing in CC should be unthinkable and thus morally devastating but shooting is cowardice and should be ignored.

The problem with a rule like that is it creates an army that is the exact opposite of what was intended. If WE ignore moral checks from shooting, that would encourage a gun line that avoids CC.

All these LD modifier abilities seem to be drastically contradictory to GW's commitment to "make chapter/legion tactics useful to all units"

Helbrutes and all characters don't give two gaks about leadership modifiers, nor does anything smaller than 5 models (and any 5 model units dont really care either). Oblits/maulers, sane sized bike units, sane sized terminator units, sane sized raptor/talon units...
Really, 3 of these 7 tactics -might- have some tiny effect on like... big blobs of cultists (but only if theyre supported by an apostle), or big squads of CSM (but why would you take those over msu anyways?)

If these are true, I'll be profoundly disappointed.

 buddha wrote:
It kind of seems like the WE bonus should be reversed that they don't take morale from shooting but do from CC since them losing in CC should be unthinkable and thus morally devastating but shooting is cowardice and should be ignored.

Unheard of? World Eaters die by the fething hundreds of millions of thousands every campaign, it's like the second best thing they do behind finding new places to put their chain axes. I feel like the tactic in full is more like: "Auto-pass morale if you fought in the fight phase this turn". Because let's face it, this if it was "auto-pass morale while locked in combat" it would conflict with Berzerkers completely mutilating the thing they charged after fighting a a billion times in a row.

Edit: hey, Warp Talons might be pretty good for World Eaters now!

 buddha wrote:
I actually think 2 wounds finally puts them in "useable" territory which indeed quite improved from unusable.

This is true, but the other remaining problem with the unit is the inherent randomness with their damage output. They are primarily a melee unit, first having to go through random charge distance and having succeeded that they need to roll atleast 2 or 3 to be good. I don't get what is it with the love of adding excessive amount of random effects to units.

About Legion Traits:
As a NL player, I like their legion trait. It is certainly a step up from 7th edition where the Ld modifier rule 'Terror Tactics' was flat -2 modifier which couldnt be stacked with itself and the morale itself was non-factor for many armies. This new legion trait synergises nicely with Raptors, assuming they keep the rule 'Fearsome visage' as it is in the index currently, although this is much better as this activates on 6" distance instead of 1". The rules, if the rumour is true, are kind of opposite, with the legion trait giving -1 stackable to Ld while Raptor rule adds 1 to the result of the test.
All this seems awesome, but then there are the armies that can flat out ignore morale (AM with commissars) and the other examples given by Colpicklejar. Saddest thing is that fluffwise NL should be most effective against AM. Tyranids and Orks not being affected by this is sad yes, but it is fluffy atleast.

Otherwise the NL trait still places them at weird place. You wanna be within 6" with several units to stack the effect. Raptors however are not the best melee unit around for CSM, and dont combo with this rule too well because of that. The best effect can be achieved by MSU style lists, which are natural choice for units anyway to avoid having to lose models at morale phase. Maybe by driving in with Stormeagle filled with CSM tacticals and lord etc.

The black legion one sounds good, I wonder if it will just be like Eldar's Battle Focus or something better.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 buddha wrote:
It kind of seems like the WE bonus should be reversed that they don't take morale from shooting but do from CC since them losing in CC should be unthinkable and thus morally devastating but shooting is cowardice and should be ignored.

Unheard of? World Eaters die by the fething hundreds of millions of thousands every campaign, it's like the second best thing they do behind finding new places to put their chain axes. I feel like the tactic in full is more like: "Auto-pass morale if you fought in the fight phase this turn". Because let's face it, this if it was "auto-pass morale while locked in combat" it would conflict with Berzerkers completely mutilating the thing they charged after fighting a a billion times in a row.

Edit: hey, Warp Talons might be pretty good for World Eaters now!

Warp Talons could end up with +1 wound too, since they are kind of like jump possessed

Don't forget that the WE one is just the general legion trait (If the one mentioned is true) there will (probably) be extra rules for Berzerkers (I'm pretty sure not all WE are Berzerkers anyway)

 Sersi wrote:
Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

How does this rank up to the C:SM chapter tactics?

IMHO it's pretty sweet. I'd take this over rerolling charge distances. I would rather have taken the -1 to be hit at range, but it's still pretty good.

I hope we get a stratagem which prevents people from falling back, that would be hilarious.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

How does this rank up to the C:SM chapter tactics?

IMHO it's pretty sweet. I'd take this over rerolling charge distances. I would rather have taken the -1 to be hit at range, but it's still pretty good.

It's actually a terrible ability. Just like Howling banshees they don't do a damn thing. Striking first AFTER all chargers is virtually useless because you've already been hit. Units that don't want to be around for more than 1 round just fall back anyway. You need the demon ability that stops fallback.

1/10 ability (only a 1 because 0 is reserved for Obliterators)

overtyrant wrote:
(I'm pretty sure not all WE are Berzerkers anyway)

If you want to go by the lore of the past few decades...

All WE are Berserkers but not all Berserkers are WE.
All EC are Noise Marines but not all Noise Marines are EC.
All DG are Plague Marines but not all Plague Marines are DG.
All non-Psyker Thousand Sons are Rubrics. All Rubrics are technically Thousand Sons (but you have odd cases of mercenary Sorcerers offering the ritual out to other Legions).

It's why I consider the restrictions on the DG list but not the WE or EC list to be bunk.

And when I say all I include Cult Terminators in there. Really. I hope we see some sort of Cult equivalents.

The EC trait is nice enough but it'd be mighty nice to see if the Marks do anything themselves.

Also, my Death Guard are on the verge of becoming Nurgle Renegades using another Legion's trait depending on how hard we get shafted on the Terminator front. If I see fixed load out Terminators then I'm just straight up going Nurgle Renegade and using another Legion's trait.

 Rydria wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Well, that's a surprise Emperor's Children right out the gate this time.

Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

I disagree, the ability is far less useful in slaanesh daemons since the opponent will always fallback so you never get to use it, and single counter charger unit allot of shoting armies pack will hit you first anyway.

In emperor's children it is a defensive ability kind of similar to the salamander one, since it saves you CPs on using counter assault stratagem (though it isn't anywhere near as universally useful)

The rest of the stratagems and psychic powers are both incredible, anyone else looking forward to using a full combi plasma terminator squad ? 40 plasma shots : P

No because combi plasmas are not in the terminator kit so I assume they will vanish along with power swords and lightning claws as upgrades.

 Kirasu wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

How does this rank up to the C:SM chapter tactics?

IMHO it's pretty sweet. I'd take this over rerolling charge distances. I would rather have taken the -1 to be hit at range, but it's still pretty good.

It's actually a terrible ability. Just like Howling banshees they don't do a damn thing. Striking first AFTER all chargers is virtually useless because you've already been hit. Units that don't want to be around for more than 1 round just fall back anyway. You need the demon ability that stops fallback.

They don't fight after all chargers- it literally says they alternate with enemy chargers (or other units that also strike first).
So instead of all chargers, if you get charged by 4 units its Opponent, you, opponent, you, opponent, you, opponent, you. If you have ongoing combats yours get added to the alternating units (with the chargers), then all of opponents ongoing fights at the end.
It's a pretty large benefit as you can blunt around half the charges, just be smart about order. The unit that got attacked by the opponent's first unit? Pick that last.


tl;dr: They fight first with a single (1) charging unit. Then it alternates. Then the opponent's units that didn't charge fight.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Well, that's a surprise Emperor's Children right out the gate this time.

Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

I disagree, the ability is far less useful in slaanesh daemons since the opponent will always fallback so you never get to use it, and single counter charger unit allot of shoting armies pack will hit you first anyway.

In emperor's children it is a defensive ability kind of similar to the salamander one, since it saves you CPs on using counter assault stratagem (though it isn't anywhere near as universally useful)

The rest of the stratagems and psychic powers are both incredible, anyone else looking forward to using a full combi plasma terminator squad ? 40 plasma shots : P

No because combi plasmas are not in the terminator kit so I assume they will vanish along with power swords and lightning claws as upgrades.

This is exactly why the whole 'if we don't produce a kit for it you can't have it' approach worries a lot of folk and why the CSM range suffers for it.

In addition to the usual aesthetic issues and age issues....

Let's make an assumption - we won't lose weapon options that exist in some other kit in our range - GW would rather us buy 3 kits to make one character than give us one kit with the relevant options. So Heavy weapon options are safe, so on, so forth.

Basic CSM kit - no combi-weapons, only have access to a power sword. No other kits in the CSM range have PA combi-weapons or power weapons other than power swords. We might possibly keep axes (because of the horrible £14 Aspiring Champion clampack). But goodbye combi-weapons, goodbye power mauls.

This power maul cut will probably carry over to anything not a Chaos Terminator. Which would be a shame as my Havoc champions have FW 30k Power Mauls on them.

Chaos Terminators - no power swords, no combi-plasma. Goodbye to those.

I wonder of Line CSM will get Bolter/Pistol/CCW back...

Ghorgul wrote:

 buddha wrote:
I actually think 2 wounds finally puts them in "useable" territory which indeed quite improved from unusable.

This is true, but the other remaining problem with the unit is the inherent randomness with their damage output. They are primarily a melee unit, first having to go through random charge distance and having succeeded that they need to roll atleast 2 or 3 to be good. I don't get what is it with the love of adding excessive amount of random effects to units.

About Legion Traits:
As a NL player, I like their legion trait. It is certainly a step up from 7th edition where the Ld modifier rule 'Terror Tactics' was flat -2 modifier which couldnt be stacked with itself and the morale itself was non-factor for many armies. This new legion trait synergises nicely with Raptors, assuming they keep the rule 'Fearsome visage' as it is in the index currently, although this is much better as this activates on 6" distance instead of 1". The rules, if the rumour is true, are kind of opposite, with the legion trait giving -1 stackable to Ld while Raptor rule adds 1 to the result of the test.
All this seems awesome, but then there are the armies that can flat out ignore morale (AM with commissars) and the other examples given by Colpicklejar. Saddest thing is that fluffwise NL should be most effective against AM. Tyranids and Orks not being affected by this is sad yes, but it is fluffy atleast.

Otherwise the NL trait still places them at weird place. You wanna be within 6" with several units to stack the effect. Raptors however are not the best melee unit around for CSM, and dont combo with this rule too well because of that. The best effect can be achieved by MSU style lists, which are natural choice for units anyway to avoid having to lose models at morale phase. Maybe by driving in with Stormeagle filled with CSM tacticals and lord etc.

Where does this info come from? Where can I find it?

 Azreal13 wrote:
I wonder of Line CSM will get Bolter/Pistol/CCW back...

It'd be nice because we were one of the few armies that could actually do it and a lot of us actually modelled that appropriately. (use the pouch/hide/holster bits for pistols, clip pistols off arms, replace with bolters, fully WYSIWYG marines!)

I just want some sweet cover bonus Strategems for my Night Lords.

A turn one night fighting advantage would be great with my Havocs perched in a high ruin.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Well, that's a surprise Emperor's Children right out the gate this time.

Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

I disagree, the ability is far less useful in slaanesh daemons since the opponent will always fallback so you never get to use it, and single counter charger unit allot of shoting armies pack will hit you first anyway.

In emperor's children it is a defensive ability kind of similar to the salamander one, since it saves you CPs on using counter assault stratagem (though it isn't anywhere near as universally useful)

The rest of the stratagems and psychic powers are both incredible, anyone else looking forward to using a full combi plasma terminator squad ? 40 plasma shots : P

No because combi plasmas are not in the terminator kit so I assume they will vanish along with power swords and lightning claws as upgrades.

This is exactly why the whole 'if we don't produce a kit for it you can't have it' approach worries a lot of folk and why the CSM range suffers for it.

In addition to the usual aesthetic issues and age issues....

Let's make an assumption - we won't lose weapon options that exist in some other kit in our range - GW would rather us buy 3 kits to make one character than give us one kit with the relevant options. So Heavy weapon options are safe, so on, so forth.

Basic CSM kit - no combi-weapons, only have access to a power sword. No other kits in the CSM range have PA combi-weapons or power weapons other than power swords. We might possibly keep axes (because of the horrible £14 Aspiring Champion clampack). But goodbye combi-weapons, goodbye power mauls.

This power maul cut will probably carry over to anything not a Chaos Terminator. Which would be a shame as my Havoc champions have FW 30k Power Mauls on them.

Chaos Terminators - no power swords, no combi-plasma. Goodbye to those.

I think that same clam pack aspiring champion has a combi melta on his back pack so those may be safe but yea I expect many a co,bi weapon to vanish including all but the combiflamer for tanks. Aside from that I think you nailed it. Hopefully we are wrong and they spare us the load out culling.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Rydria wrote:

 Sersi wrote:
Well, that's a surprise Emperor's Children right out the gate this time.

Flawless Perfection:

The same as the Slaaneshi Daemon ability. Where it is excellent since they have no shooting and are melee oriented. But EC are mostly shooting oriented making it a bit less useful. Still excellent on Terminators, Bikers, Helbrutes, and Warp Talons.

I disagree, the ability is far less useful in slaanesh daemons since the opponent will always fallback so you never get to use it, and single counter charger unit allot of shoting armies pack will hit you first anyway.

In emperor's children it is a defensive ability kind of similar to the salamander one, since it saves you CPs on using counter assault stratagem (though it isn't anywhere near as universally useful)

The rest of the stratagems and psychic powers are both incredible, anyone else looking forward to using a full combi plasma terminator squad ? 40 plasma shots : P

No because combi plasmas are not in the terminator kit so I assume they will vanish along with power swords and lightning claws as upgrades.

This is exactly why the whole 'if we don't produce a kit for it you can't have it' approach worries a lot of folk and why the CSM range suffers for it.

In addition to the usual aesthetic issues and age issues....

Let's make an assumption - we won't lose weapon options that exist in some other kit in our range - GW would rather us buy 3 kits to make one character than give us one kit with the relevant options. So Heavy weapon options are safe, so on, so forth.

Basic CSM kit - no combi-weapons, only have access to a power sword. No other kits in the CSM range have PA combi-weapons or power weapons other than power swords. We might possibly keep axes (because of the horrible £14 Aspiring Champion clampack). But goodbye combi-weapons, goodbye power mauls.

This power maul cut will probably carry over to anything not a Chaos Terminator. Which would be a shame as my Havoc champions have FW 30k Power Mauls on them.

Chaos Terminators - no power swords, no combi-plasma. Goodbye to those.

I think that same clam pack aspiring champion has a combi melta on his back pack so those may be safe but yea I expect many a co,bi weapon to vanish including all but the combiflamer for tanks. Aside from that I think you nailed it. Hopefully we are wrong and they spare us the load out culling.

The Command Vehicle upgrade sprue has a vehicle Combi-Melta, so that option stays, too.

You guys do realize that there are no chosen with flamer kit yet they outright suggested you use flamer chosen in the emperor's children sneak preview ?

In addition you are outright allowed to use the index, for unit entries if you choose to at least that is the case for space marines.

 Rydria wrote:
You guys do realize that there are no chosen with flamer kit yet they outright suggested you use flamer chosen in the emperor's children sneak preview ?

I really wanted a basic Chaos Marine kit. But there are no indication that we are getting anything new ... unless you play Death Guard.

Jack Spratt wrote:
Where does this info come from? Where can I find it?

It's from a post referring to a website a few pages back:
https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/2285

Warhams-77 wrote:
War of Sigmar

Hello everyone
by reading the white dwarf with a mag glass a friend saw this :

-Night lord trait should be : -1 ld by nl unit around you (6" and stack)
-Iron warriors : +1 in cover and -1 vs covers
-World Bearers : Reroll moral.
-Emperors Childrend : Always pile in first (WTF?)
-Black legion : +1 ld and a bonus for advancing and shooting (too small)
-World eaters : Pass all morale while in melee
-Alpha legion : Deep strike at 12" from ennemies.

Night lord stratagem is : -1 to hit.
ps : Saw someone on FB sharing nearly the same sighting.
/cheers.
bob.

Of course the information can be doubted, the linked blog post for example failed to read EC legion trait correctly, although Always Fight first instead of the listed Always pile in first is kind of understandable misreading.

 Rydria wrote:
You guys do realize that there are no chosen with flamer kit yet they outright suggested you use flamer chosen in the emperor's children sneak preview ?

In addition you are outright allowed to use the index, for unit entries if you choose to at least that is the case for space marines.

You realise that the Flamer is a basic special weapon in the CSM kit and as I stated things that existed in one kit or another were generally safe?

CSM have -never- not had access to a flamer in their long history. 2nd even had a flamer as one of the two special weapons we actually had in metal.

So your point is?

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
You guys do realize that there are no chosen with flamer kit yet they outright suggested you use flamer chosen in the emperor's children sneak preview ?

In addition you are outright allowed to use the index, for unit entries if you choose to at least that is the case for space marines.

You realise that the Flamer is a basic special weapon in the CSM kit and as I stated things that existed in one kit or another were generally safe?

CSM have -never- not had access to a flamer in their long history. 2nd even had a flamer as one of the two special weapons we actually had in metal.

So your point is?

The way the doomsayers are making it out, you can't use anything that doesn't come with the actual kit itself, such as no lightning claw terminators, even though there are lightning claws are in the terminator lord kit. I'm highly doubtful that GW are going to remove combi-plasma from the armory.

Every weapon is available from a current kit/or was available in dark vengeance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Power sword (CSM, Raptors, dark vengeance, betrayal at calth)
Power Axe (dark vengeance, vrosh tattersoul, terminator lord, warpsmith, chaos lord metal)
Power Maul (dark vengeance, terminators, dark apostle)
Power fist (Raptors, terminators/Lord, dark vengeance, warsmith, Nightlord hero, betrayal at calth)
Lightning claw (Raptors, Terminator lord, betrayal at calth)
Flamer, Melta, Plasma gun (CSM, Raptors, betrayal at calth)
combi plasma (Betrayal at calth)
combi melta (vrosh tattersoul, Betrayal at calth, terminator lord, warsmith)
combi flamer (terminators, betrayal at calth, Nightlord hero)
Missile launcher (havocs, betrayal at calth)
lascannon and autocannon (havocs)
heavy bolter (CSM, havocs, betrayal at calth)

 Rydria wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
You guys do realize that there are no chosen with flamer kit yet they outright suggested you use flamer chosen in the emperor's children sneak preview ?

In addition you are outright allowed to use the index, for unit entries if you choose to at least that is the case for space marines.

You realise that the Flamer is a basic special weapon in the CSM kit and as I stated things that existed in one kit or another were generally safe?

CSM have -never- not had access to a flamer in their long history. 2nd even had a flamer as one of the two special weapons we actually had in metal.

So your point is?

The way the doomsayers are making it out, you can't use anything that doesn't come with the actual kit itself, such as no lightning claw terminators, even though there are lightning claws are in the terminator lord kit. I'm highly doubtful that GW are going to remove combi-plasma from the armory.

Every weapon is available from a current kit/or was available in dark vengeance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Power sword (CSM, Raptors, dark vengeance, betrayal at calth)
Power Axe (dark vengeance, vrosh tattersoul, terminator lord, warpsmith, chaos lord metal)
Power Maul (dark vengeance, terminators, dark apostle)
Power fist (Raptors, terminators/Lord, dark vengeance, warsmith, Nightlord hero, betrayal at calth)
Lightning claw (Raptors, Terminator lord, betrayal at calth)
Flamer, Melta, Plasma gun (CSM, Raptors, betrayal at calth)
combi plasma (Betrayal at calth)
combi melta (vrosh tattersoul, Betrayal at calth, terminator lord, warsmith)
combi flamer (terminators, betrayal at calth, Nightlord hero)
Missile launcher (havocs, betrayal at calth)
lascannon and autocannon (havocs)
heavy bolter (CSM, havocs, betrayal at calth)

If you're attempting to argue for a new standard CSM boxset then you're doing a great job.

Yeah... all that assumes that the HH plastics are CSM units, however, they're not listed as such. While they're obvious conversion fodder, GW's pretty clearly trying to tone down kitbashing for weapon combos.

 Rydria wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
You guys do realize that there are no chosen with flamer kit yet they outright suggested you use flamer chosen in the emperor's children sneak preview ?

In addition you are outright allowed to use the index, for unit entries if you choose to at least that is the case for space marines.

You realise that the Flamer is a basic special weapon in the CSM kit and as I stated things that existed in one kit or another were generally safe?

CSM have -never- not had access to a flamer in their long history. 2nd even had a flamer as one of the two special weapons we actually had in metal.

So your point is?

The way the doomsayers are making it out, you can't use anything that doesn't come with the actual kit itself, such as no lightning claw terminators, even though there are lightning claws are in the terminator lord kit. I'm highly doubtful that GW are going to remove combi-plasma from the armory.

Every weapon is available from a current kit/or was available in dark vengeance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Power sword (CSM, Raptors, dark vengeance, betrayal at calth)
Power Axe (dark vengeance, vrosh tattersoul, terminator lord, warpsmith, chaos lord metal)
Power Maul (dark vengeance, terminators, dark apostle)
Power fist (Raptors, terminators/Lord, dark vengeance, warsmith, Nightlord hero, betrayal at calth)
Lightning claw (Raptors, Terminator lord, betrayal at calth)
Flamer, Melta, Plasma gun (CSM, Raptors, betrayal at calth)
combi plasma (Betrayal at calth)
combi melta (vrosh tattersoul, Betrayal at calth, terminator lord, warsmith)
combi flamer (terminators, betrayal at calth, Nightlord hero)
Missile launcher (havocs, betrayal at calth)
lascannon and autocannon (havocs)
heavy bolter (CSM, havocs, betrayal at calth)

Doomsayers?
Since when is drawing a rational logical conclusion from a pattern of behavior that has been consistent doomsaying?

Look, I hope chaos bucks the trend, but all we are saying is that you should prepare for the worst. Feel free to ignore me at least, but I'll continue to hold off building several kits on my desk until the book hits since I hate breaking models after I have glued them.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Yeah... all that assumes that the HH plastics are CSM units, however, they're not listed as such. While they're obvious conversion fodder, GW's pretty clearly trying to tone down kitbashing for weapon combos.

maybe but at the same time using MK 3 or 4 armor kits for CSMs is such a no brainer I can't imagine GW not supporting the ide. granted I also expected them to supply the rules for cataphracti and Taratos termies to any of the potentially first founding armies. I can understand why they might avoid a contemptor dread, (if Bjorn isn't in a contemptor, for example, space wolves could be argued not to have any) but no reason not to sell the terminator varients to any and all

 Rydria wrote:

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 Rydria wrote:
You guys do realize that there are no chosen with flamer kit yet they outright suggested you use flamer chosen in the emperor's children sneak preview ?

In addition you are outright allowed to use the index, for unit entries if you choose to at least that is the case for space marines.

You realise that the Flamer is a basic special weapon in the CSM kit and as I stated things that existed in one kit or another were generally safe?

CSM have -never- not had access to a flamer in their long history. 2nd even had a flamer as one of the two special weapons we actually had in metal.

So your point is?

The way the doomsayers are making it out, you can't use anything that doesn't come with the actual kit itself, such as no lightning claw terminators, even though there are lightning claws are in the terminator lord kit. I'm highly doubtful that GW are going to remove combi-plasma from the armory.

Every weapon is available from a current kit/or was available in dark vengeance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Power sword (CSM, Raptors, dark vengeance, betrayal at calth)
Power Axe (dark vengeance, vrosh tattersoul, terminator lord, warpsmith, chaos lord metal)
Power Maul (dark vengeance, terminators, dark apostle)
Power fist (Raptors, terminators/Lord, dark vengeance, warsmith, Nightlord hero, betrayal at calth)
Lightning claw (Raptors, Terminator lord, betrayal at calth)
Flamer, Melta, Plasma gun (CSM, Raptors, betrayal at calth)
combi plasma (Betrayal at calth)
combi melta (vrosh tattersoul, Betrayal at calth, terminator lord, warsmith)
combi flamer (terminators, betrayal at calth, Nightlord hero)
Missile launcher (havocs, betrayal at calth)
lascannon and autocannon (havocs)
heavy bolter (CSM, havocs, betrayal at calth)

First of all, we need to do the following....

Take every 30k kit and game and throw them right out of that list. They are not part of the CSM list and thus should not be included, any more than Imperial SM units should be. That's not how GW think - we may be happy to convert and use them but GW don't see them in the bubble.

Second - let's look at the list

Power Swords - already covered as safe, existing in the CSM and Raptor kits. HOWEVER they are not present in the Chaos Terminator kit and that is the unit likely to lose them as such.
Power Axes - already covered as safe.
Power Mauls - Dark Apostle has an Accursed Crozius. I can see that becoming a seperate piece of wargear altogether. Dark Vengeance - oh wow, so our only power armoured power maul is on a single plastic model only available in a boxed game. That's TERRIBLE.
Power Fist - never at risk as has been present since 2nd edition.
Lightning Claws - never at risk.
Flamer, Plasma and Meltaguns - never at risk.
Combi-Plasma - What's that? When you factor in what is available in the CSM range only this isn't available to ANYTHING? Oh my.
Combi-Melta - so our only power armoured combi meltas are on a metal model and the backpack of a clampack model. TERRIBLE.
Combi-Flamer - Again, only on a single power armoured model. TERRIBLE.


Actually...you've made a REALLY good argument for exactly why the CSM range needs an overhaul.

Did you know we can't even make a 5 man 'standard' armed Terminator squad from the kit? There's just not enough power mauls/axes or twin-bolters for it. You HAVE to dip into the fists and combi-weapons....