Galas wrote: I'm sad that Grim Resolve doesn't really helps Ravenwing and Deathwing... Deathwing where already inmune to morale on the index.
Will those two receive other special rules? I hope so. With this, basically ravenwing have no chapter tactic. Theres no way you are shooting without moving with your bikes. I'm still hoping that Grim Resolve works like the Cadian Regiment Trait with the order of "take aim", and if you don't move and have a Company Master, then you rerroll all to hit rolls that you fail, not only 1's. Because it overlaps in a big way otherwise.
If Samael remains the same, he gives the Ravenwing flat re-rolls anyway if he's near them. So I mean, they still get the Ld part, not great, but its something. And with Sammy, you can have Overcharging Black Knights running around.
Galas wrote: I'm sad that Grim Resolve doesn't really helps Ravenwing and Deathwing... Deathwing where already inmune to morale on the index.
Will those two receive other special rules? I hope so. With this, basically ravenwing have no chapter tactic. Theres no way you are shooting without moving with your bikes. I'm still hoping that Grim Resolve works like the Cadian Regiment Trait with the order of "take aim", and if you don't move and have a Company Master, then you rerroll all to hit rolls that you fail, not only 1's. Because it overlaps in a big way otherwise.
If Samael remains the same, he gives the Ravenwing flat re-rolls anyway if he's near them. So I mean, they still get the Ld part, not great, but its something. And with Sammy, you can have Overcharging Black Knights running around.
That forces you to take Special Characters again. Not thats a bad thing you know. I know Ravenwing have Jink, but they pay for that being more expensive than all the rest of the SM bikers. Just a shame that our "Chapter Trait" is useless for Ravenwing. The morale loses is useless, even taking squads of 6.
But ey. The Ravenwing Liutenaunt on a Land Speeders? Thats really, really cool. A little derpy to see him with a sword on a land speder, but still cool.
Grey Knights pay 2CP to up the Strength (not Damage) of a units bolt weapons for a phase. Dark Angels get +1 Damage on Plasma for half the price sounds ... wrong.
Galas wrote: I'm sad that Grim Resolve doesn't really helps Ravenwing and Deathwing... Deathwing where already inmune to morale on the index.
Will those two receive other special rules? I hope so. With this, basically ravenwing have no chapter tactic. Theres no way you are shooting without moving with your bikes. I'm still hoping that Grim Resolve works like the Cadian Regiment Trait with the order of "take aim", and if you don't move and have a Company Master, then you rerroll all to hit rolls that you fail, not only 1's. Because it overlaps in a big way otherwise.
If Samael remains the same, he gives the Ravenwing flat re-rolls anyway if he's near them. So I mean, they still get the Ld part, not great, but its something. And with Sammy, you can have Overcharging Black Knights running around.
That forces you to take Special Characters again. Not thats a bad thing you know. I know Ravenwing have Jink, but they pay for that being more expensive than all the rest of the SM bikers. Just a shame that our "Chapter Trait" is useless for Ravenwing. The morale loses is useless, even taking squads of 6.
But ey. The Ravenwing Liutenaunt on a Land Speeders? Thats really, really cool. A little depry to see him with a sword on a land speder, but still cool.
Well isn't Sammy the only Company Master option, or HQ in general other than the Lieutenants? Sure there used to be Chaplains and Librarians on Bikes, but No Model, No Rules. So RW will likely always have Sammy in the list. Hopefully there is something more in the book for them, because RW is the only part of the army I think I still have models for. Maybe I'll expand on them after BA.
Warlord in Terminator Armor + Overcharged Lion's Roar + Huntsmen + WoTDA = Turn 1 Character Snipe
come on now. Absolute best case scenario is 8 wounds, and that's being able to DS within 12" of him, firing both guns at a -1 to hit, hitting all 4 shots, wounding on both bolter shots, and both plasma shots, and their character not being able to save anything. You might get a a few low wound characters with that 1 trick pony, but you've taken that relic over many other likely better relics, spent CPs and took a lackluster warlord trait that you may or may not even be able to make use of. Pass.
Sure not ideal but you can do 6 wounds with just the Plasma part. Also Im just trying to work with in the limited confines of your own army. You're the one that limited yourself to Deathwing.
I'm just initially disappointed that's all. I play just about pure Deathwing supported by 3 Ravenwing flyers. It's pretty fluffy and has been pretty good in the games i've played but it's DW, your always outnumbered and need a little luck to pull off some wins so I was hoping for a little bit of help for us purists. As Galas points out, Grim resolve, by the article looks like a nerf to DW unless it's a typo, and the re-roll of 1's will almost never apply to my army (or Ravenwing) as I am always moving my terminators either closer to the opponent to get into CC or away to avoid it depending on who i'm fighting.
Having said that, this is, for the most part a fairly small bit of info. We've now probably seen most of the the DA specific strategems, but relics, warlord traits, psychic powers, points, special rules and such can all change the army as well. I'm hoping for a decent strategem or 2 for DW that boosts shooting upon DS or otherwise, the obligatory point cost reductions (like power fists) that we've seen in the SM codex, maybe some DW/Knights specific ones. Some decent Psychic powers, those 2 spoiled I don't believe are very good, and some cool relics. I'd love a unique Assault cannon, but even more than that, I want to see our 3 banners come back and be really good. The FnP one was cool, but I wanted the standard of devastation to work on terms back when Storm Bolters only had 2 shots, of course it didn't. Also would be nice for DW to count as troops under certain circumstances or warlords as done before.
Warlord in Terminator Armor + Overcharged Lion's Roar + Huntsmen + WoTDA = Turn 1 Character Snipe
come on now. Absolute best case scenario is 8 wounds, and that's being able to DS within 12" of him, firing both guns at a -1 to hit, hitting all 4 shots, wounding on both bolter shots, and both plasma shots, and their character not being able to save anything. You might get a a few low wound characters with that 1 trick pony, but you've taken that relic over many other likely better relics, spent CPs and took a lackluster warlord trait that you may or may not even be able to make use of. Pass.
Sure not ideal but you can do 6 wounds with just the Plasma part. Also Im just trying to work with in the limited confines of your own army. You're the one that limited yourself to Deathwing.
I'm just initially disappointed that's all. I play just about pure Deathwing supported by 3 Ravenwing flyers. It's pretty fluffy and has been pretty good in the games i've played but it's DW, your always outnumbered and need a little luck to pull off some wins so I was hoping for a little bit of help for us purists. As Galas points out, Grim resolve, by the article looks like a nerf to DW unless it's a typo, and the re-roll of 1's will almost never apply to my army (or Ravenwing) as I am always moving my terminators either closer to the opponent to get into CC or away to avoid it depending on who i'm fighting.
Having said that, this is, for the most part a fairly small bit of info. We've now probably seen most of the the DA specific strategems, but relics, warlord traits, psychic powers, points, special rules and such can all change the army as well. I'm hoping for a decent strategem or 2 for DW that boosts shooting upon DS or otherwise, the obligatory point cost reductions (like power fists) that we've seen in the SM codex, maybe some DW/Knights specific ones. Some decent Psychic powers, those 2 spoiled I don't believe are very good, and some cool relics. I'd love a unique Assault cannon, but even more than that, I want to see our 3 banners come back and be really good. The FnP one was cool, but I wanted the standard of devastation to work on terms back when Storm Bolters only had 2 shots, of course it didn't. Also would be nice for DW to count as troops under certain circumstances or warlords as done before.
I get it, it just seemed off to give off the impression that this is all lackluster, when its going off one specific build. For running Death/Raven/Greenwings together it seems really good. For Greenwing (now also Primariswing or Hellwing?) in particular this stuff is strong.
Kdash wrote: So, I think the main problem a lot of people are having with this stratagem, is a result of the matched play rules.
At the end of the day, the -vast- majority of games played use the Matched play format (competitive or not), so, as a result, to even use this stratagem you are going to need to spend, at least, a couple of hundred points for a patrol detachment of Wolves (or DA if you’re a SW player). This is simply because of the battleforged rules, and needing to keep each detachment “pure” in order to gain the benefits of each army. Yes, people do play narrative and open play games frequently, but, i would be astounded if the number of games played in those 2 styles comes anywhere close to matching games played using matched play.
Now… If the SW’s got a rule saying something like “1 unit of SW infantry can be included in any Space Marine army and will not have an impact on (or benefit from) the host armies battleforged rules”, it would make things interesting. This would be similar to how Scions work in Astra Militarum, and a way of representing how they were used as “watchful eyes” on the other legions in the Heresy. This would be super cool, fluffy AND make this stratagem actually worth something.
However, without a rule like that, I’m also in the camp of “well, never going to use that”. That is simply because I don’t see the benefits outweighing the cost of a CP (which you’ll be limited on anyway if you have to take a patrol detachment) and the potential cost of 2 wounds on my characters. Sure, it’d benefit the SW model if/when it gets to combat, but as the DA want to be more about shooting right now….
Sure, it’s kinda fluffy, but, currently, I put this stratagem in the same basket as the Admech Scryerskull stratagem…
Well, it definitely got me thinking though. I'm a main SW player and the first thing I came up with that would complement them rather nicely is an Outrider detachment consisting of Sammael on Jetbike (receives buff from stratagem) + Ravenwing Bikers/ Black Knights (Wolves like to play aggressively and these guys are the same). Then take Arjac or Logan (to receive the Stratagem buffs) + your normal SW forces. Don't know how competitive it's gonna be but it sounds fun as hell to me. I'm not normally not too much into DA but I love their models so this would be a perfect excuse to get a small complementary force of them.
Edit: Meh, I just remembered that Sammael isn't infantry so he's not eligible... bummer
Yeah, tricky bit will be finding the right DA character to use it on. However, i do agree with where you are coming from. This is likely to be better for a SW main player, rather than a DA player imo.
changemod wrote: You can now use a stratagem to fill your opponent's hive tyrant with an intense desire to protect the secrets of the fallen.
Just because the Dark Angels think someone holds a clue to the whereabouts of the Fallen doesn't mean that it's correct... but it won't stop the Dark Angels from putting the work into capturing them.
changemod wrote: You can now use a stratagem to fill your opponent's hive tyrant with an intense desire to protect the secrets of the fallen.
Just because the Dark Angels think someone holds a clue to the whereabouts of the Fallen doesn't mean that it's correct... but it won't stop the Dark Angels from putting the work into capturing them.
As stated above, that stratagem requires selecting an Infantry Character in the opponent's army. So no hive tyrants potentially 'hiding' secrets.
changemod wrote: You can now use a stratagem to fill your opponent's hive tyrant with an intense desire to protect the secrets of the fallen.
Just because the Dark Angels think someone holds a clue to the whereabouts of the Fallen doesn't mean that it's correct... but it won't stop the Dark Angels from putting the work into capturing them.
As stated above, that stratagem requires selecting an Infantry Character in the opponent's army. So no hive tyrants potentially 'hiding' secrets.
No no no the tyrants don't collude with the Fallen they leave that to the tyranid primes.
Aversion and Fortress of Shields is going to keep your Knights alive for a long time against pretty much anything in combat.
You're going to see a 10 man helblaster squad + Primaris Ancient in every list.
The Ravenwing Lieutenant in landspeeder looks very very good, when used as a base of a Ravenwing set of units.
Huntsman, is alright, though i'm not enjoying the amount of armies that can now take sniper warlords. However, the relic feels lackluster. I suppose it means you can now advance and fire with it, but, i'd rather not kill my own characters with hit rolls of 2. If it was 3 damage base, then, maybe? Reserving judgement until we see the other relics.
Mind Wipe, is interesting, but, it's 18" range and you're going to need a couple of turns to stack it. On a cast of 7+ AND requiring a ld rolloff, you're not likely to stack it much. And, if you're in 18" range of the character for 2 turns anyway, you're either dead, or have already killed the target.
Trephination, is like the Eldar power i guess. There are ways to 1 shot BobbyG with the power, but, it requires so much investment in points - even then, it requires a massive amount of luck to do more than 4-5 wounds.
Curious as to what the "Inner Circle" ability is.
I also agree with people's views on Grim Resolve. It's pretty much a pure Greenwing buff, as the rest of the units will always be moving/stuck in combat and not shooting.
Hunt the Fallen is ok, i guess, but, not overly practical in my view. Infantry characters are likely going to be behind screening units, so, you're not likely going to be getting charges off against them anyway - especially armies that can stack defensive lines.
All this could be wrong too, as we don't have the full picture - but they are my first thoughts. I've also noticed that they haven't used any wording to hint at points changes, like they have in previous articles, so i hope that it is just something that has been left out due to word count etc.
Grim Resolve: Great for a gunline army, not so great for anything else due to ATSKNF, I like it though.
Weapons from the Dark Age: Very Very good, combined with the above especially, also encourages Gunline.
Hunt the Fallen: now THIS is what a fluffy strat should look like, not amazing but I like it, opponent will have to make sure they bubble wrap that character very well if DW are teleporting in.
Fortress of Shields: This is basically only for DW Knights, they are better than TH/SS termies anyway so I would always take them instead, very good trait to help that Deepstriking Knight Unit.
Inner Circle: Should not be a Strat, all Dreads/Land raiders and chracters should be able to take this trait for a few points anyway, probably only will be used on a Land Raider crusader for RR goodness next to Belial, otherwise I dont really see the point.
No Escape and Tactical precision: as long as I can take a luitenant on a bike, this is good, the land speeder is pretty good but can be shot (same as sammy) so I am not a fan of these abilities if I can only take them on a land speeder.
Huntsman: Kind of meh, the second part of the ability can be good, situational.
Brilliant Strategist: Pure awsomesauce, I can see this always being of some use.
Lions Roar: I like it but not because of the profile, because of the fluff, now all they need to do is let Dark Angels take Plasma Repeaters or Blasters instead of a Plasma gun to further cement the old tech vibe (remember Dark Angels dont prefer plasma, they just maintain a lot of old tech, this is represented by Plasma cannons originally for tac squads, now its plasma everywhere).
Mind Wipe: This should be a flat -1 to WS/BS till the end of the next turn, this ability is kind of meh, but I still like it.
Trephination: this sucks, average is 7, almost everything in the game has 7 or better, will likely never take.
Cataphractii and Tartoros: About time, Dark Angels and Chaos are the factions that should have had these first, now just give these to chaos !
Assuming most dataslates don't change much from the Index, the Deathwing keyword means re-rolling misses while standing next to Belial. By itself, that has value for a Land Raider. But I suspect there will be other strategems and maybe even a Relic that this keyword also unlocks.
So let's speculate wildly: What rule requires the Deathwing keyword? I'm hoping for something like their old rules that synergize well with Ravenwing.
Britlliant Strategist is also a solid ability. Take 6 command points and you really have 8, get 9, you have 12 and a free re-roll.
Unfortunately that isn't how Brilliant Strategist works. You don't roll for each command point spent, you roll once each time you use a Strategem. So if you have 6 CP and use a 1CP, a 2CP, and a 3CP strat, you'll get 1CP refunded on average.
Assuming most dataslates don't change much from the Index, the Deathwing keyword means re-rolling misses while standing next to Belial. By itself, that has value for a Land Raider. But I suspect there will be other strategems and maybe even a Relic that this keyword also unlocks.
So let's speculate wildly: What rule requires the Deathwing keyword? I'm hoping for something like their old rules that synergize well with Ravenwing.
I am hoping the same, this does also buff Forge World Dreads mind you, so a Lolviathan or Doreto dread near Bobliel would be pretty good?
Assuming most dataslates don't change much from the Index, the Deathwing keyword means re-rolling misses while standing next to Belial. By itself, that has value for a Land Raider. But I suspect there will be other strategems and maybe even a Relic that this keyword also unlocks.
So let's speculate wildly: What rule requires the Deathwing keyword? I'm hoping for something like their old rules that synergize well with Ravenwing.
I am hoping the same, this does also buff Forge World Dreads mind you, so a Lolviathan or Doreto dread near Bobliel would be pretty good?
Assuming most dataslates don't change much from the Index, the Deathwing keyword means re-rolling misses while standing next to Belial. By itself, that has value for a Land Raider. But I suspect there will be other strategems and maybe even a Relic that this keyword also unlocks.
So let's speculate wildly: What rule requires the Deathwing keyword? I'm hoping for something like their old rules that synergize well with Ravenwing.
I am hoping the same, this does also buff Forge World Dreads mind you, so a Lolviathan or Doreto dread near Bobliel would be pretty good?
Why wouldnt it? They get <Chapter>
You misunderstand, I am say that "that would be pretty good?" its a question on whether it would be good or not, I think it would though.
Inner Circle: Should not be a Strat, all Dreads/Land raiders and chracters should be able to take this trait for a few points anyway, probably only will be used on a Land Raider crusader for RR goodness next to Belial, otherwise I dont really see the point.
No Escape and Tactical precision: as long as I can take a luitenant on a bike, this is good, the land speeder is pretty good but can be shot (same as sammy) so I am not a fan of these abilities if I can only take them on a land speeder.
Inner Circle stratagem refers to them getting the Inner Circle ability listed on page 74 - so i presume it is a separate ability that some other units already have access to. This just further buffs some other units. Currently, i'd hazard a guess at it being something that Deathwing models have access to.
Good point on the landspeeder thing. Chances are it'll lose the Character keyword, which i forgot about, so that could make it super risky.
Assuming most dataslates don't change much from the Index, the Deathwing keyword means re-rolling misses while standing next to Belial. By itself, that has value for a Land Raider. But I suspect there will be other strategems and maybe even a Relic that this keyword also unlocks.
So let's speculate wildly: What rule requires the Deathwing keyword? I'm hoping for something like their old rules that synergize well with Ravenwing.
I am hoping the same, this does also buff Forge World Dreads mind you, so a Lolviathan or Doreto dread near Bobliel would be pretty good?
Why wouldnt it? They get <Chapter>
You misunderstand, I am say that "that would be pretty good?" its a question on whether it would be good or not, I think it would though.
AH, of course, my bad! Reading too much at once. The Plasma Doreto would be really good next to Belial and combined with the WotDA Strat. 5 Plasma Shots doing 4 Damage a piece on Overcharge and with the Strat, yes please.
Yeah, tricky bit will be finding the right DA character to use it on. However, i do agree with where you are coming from. This is likely to be better for a SW main player, rather than a DA player imo.
As a SW main player I like this strategem a lot and agree it will add a lot to my army while I wait on my Codex. It gives me a reason to splash Dark Angels so I can get some notably buffed hellblasters, they are far better suited to the DA rules. I’ll be pairing up a jump pack wolf priest and jump pack Interrogator-Chaplain to snag that S10 power fist.
Heh, nice to see they're just reissuing the old Sammael landspeeder as a Primaris model. I have one unassembled, now I just have to decide if I want to continue with it for Sam or go with the update.
frightnight wrote: Heh, nice to see they're just reissuing the old Sammael landspeeder as a Primaris model. I have one unassembled, now I just have to decide if I want to continue with it for Sam or go with the update.
Not Primaris. Just normal marine lieutenants, since 8th brought those back. (I don't remember if they were an anything but the old Rogue Trader list)
Yeah, tricky bit will be finding the right DA character to use it on. However, i do agree with where you are coming from. This is likely to be better for a SW main player, rather than a DA player imo.
As a SW main player I like this strategem a lot and agree it will add a lot to my army while I wait on my Codex. It gives me a reason to splash Dark Angels so I can get some notably buffed hellblasters, they are far better suited to the DA rules. I’ll be pairing up a jump pack wolf priest and jump pack Interrogator-Chaplain to snag that S10 power fist.
frightnight wrote: Heh, nice to see they're just reissuing the old Sammael landspeeder as a Primaris model. I have one unassembled, now I just have to decide if I want to continue with it for Sam or go with the update.
Not Primaris. Just normal marine lieutenants, since 8th brought those back. (I don't remember if they were an anything but the old Rogue Trader list)
Potayto, potahto. (though I am old enough to have modeled some LTs with their rank markings on their forearms back in the day)
Looking at the Index, since Sableclaw can be targeted as if it wasn't a character, I'll probably update it. Though if they're putting the base model out again, they might have the kit come with options to model Sammael, and update Sable in the Codex since it'll be a current model... Guess I'll still have to wait.
I'm guessing with it being an LT and not Sammy, it may be under 10 wounds which will make it hidden. Not sure though. I already modeled mine up tonight from my spare RW sprue. I knew there was a reason I didn't paint my last Landspeeder
bullyboy wrote: I'm guessing with it being an LT and not Sammy, it may be under 10 wounds which will make it hidden. Not sure though. I already modeled mine up tonight from my spare RW sprue. I knew there was a reason I didn't paint my last Landspeeder
Hidden Landspeeder with twin assault cannon granting ignore cover buff aura and allowing units to reroll ones to wound!
Vector Strike wrote: I hope DWK can take the new termie armors. 6" DWk could be useful
That would depend on them releasing new kit for DWK in tartaros or cataphractii armour. Not going to happen all that likely though...
They specifically mention in the Article that they get Tartaros and Cataphractii Armor. They also specifically call that out for the Blood Angels, who dont have a special kit for them.
Vector Strike wrote: I hope DWK can take the new termie armors. 6" DWk could be useful
That would depend on them releasing new kit for DWK in tartaros or cataphractii armour. Not going to happen all that likely though...
They specifically mention in the Article that they get Tartaros and Cataphractii Armor. They also specifically call that out for the Blood Angels, who dont have a special kit for them.
Speaking of the Deathwing, there’s plenty in the new codex for fans of the 1st Company of the Unforgiven. Most excitingly, you can now clad your Deathwing in Cataphractii and Tartaros armour – the former providing nigh-unparalleled durability for your units, and the latter allowing for greater mobility.
This refers just deathwing which includes yes knights but also bog standard terminators. It does not specifically refer that deathwing knights get the armour.
GW has strict no models, no rules policy. They are removing easily convertable options without models. Now you think they would create completely new unit without kit for DA? Nope. Ain't happening.
What this means is simply you get to field tartaros&cataphractii terminator units in DA army that have the deathwing keyword. Nothing more. No tartaros deathwing knights unless GW releases new kit for that.
Voss wrote: In the sense of rules, yeah. But if you want to do arm/weapon swaps or conversions and have DW Knights in the old styles of armor, nothing stops you.
Well if you want to go that way(might not be that easy to transfer weapons to old style arms) then nothing stopped you from doing that before either...
Obviously the article is talking rules wise. Converting wise nothing has stopped before from either. Nothing stops you from converting them wield tau suits for that matter
I'm very hopeful that we see something interesting with the Deathwing. If its just fearless thats a pretty big fail when you consider the protection they are already going to get from Grim Resolve.
Vector Strike wrote: I hope DWK can take the new termie armors. 6" DWk could be useful
That would depend on them releasing new kit for DWK in tartaros or cataphractii armour. Not going to happen all that likely though...
They specifically mention in the Article that they get Tartaros and Cataphractii Armor. They also specifically call that out for the Blood Angels, who dont have a special kit for them.
Speaking of the Deathwing, there’s plenty in the new codex for fans of the 1st Company of the Unforgiven. Most excitingly, you can now clad your Deathwing in Cataphractii and Tartaros armour – the former providing nigh-unparalleled durability for your units, and the latter allowing for greater mobility.
This refers just deathwing which includes yes knights but also bog standard terminators. It does not specifically refer that deathwing knights get the armour.
GW has strict no models, no rules policy. They are removing easily convertable options without models. Now you think they would create completely new unit without kit for DA? Nope. Ain't happening.
What this means is simply you get to field tartaros&cataphractii terminator units in DA army that have the deathwing keyword. Nothing more. No tartaros deathwing knights unless GW releases new kit for that.
Well, having them specifically as DWK would probably get rediculous, as you'd have Tartaros Terminators with Storm Shields moving up the field with their enhance mobility, and DWK Cataphractiis would just be slower than the other two with no benefit, so...
Hmmm this does make standard deathwing terminators kind of meh, if I want storm Bolters backed with power fists I would just take cataphractii, if I want some extra weapons like the auto cannon or plasma blaster then Tartarus with extra mobility, the only benefit I can see is assault cannons or cyclones for standard termies, anyone else thinking he same?
So the online retailers I have seen, have 15% off. Is there a retailer that does a better percent off at the pre order phase? I remember one or 2 doing a 20% off at pre order but I didnt know if they still did that. I'm working some overtime so I'm pretty sure in can go ham on the new DA release and the wife wont care too much but I was going to go for the best deal. Sorry if this is the absolute wrong spot to post this.
Formosa wrote: Hmmm this does make standard deathwing terminators kind of meh, if I want storm Bolters backed with power fists I would just take cataphractii, if I want some extra weapons like the auto cannon or plasma blaster then Tartarus with extra mobility, the only benefit I can see is assault cannons or cyclones for standard termies, anyone else thinking he same?
Plasma Cannons on Terminators?
Because remember that the Deathwing Terminator kit has a Plasma Cannon.
Formosa wrote: Hmmm this does make standard deathwing terminators kind of meh, if I want storm Bolters backed with power fists I would just take cataphractii, if I want some extra weapons like the auto cannon or plasma blaster then Tartarus with extra mobility, the only benefit I can see is assault cannons or cyclones for standard termies, anyone else thinking he same?
The normal Deathwing terminators have a much bigger array of weapon options. They are hurt by being the jack of all trades. But they can still have their place, at the end of the day they can mix whatever they want, Tartaros and Cathapractii have much less options, and can't mix weapons that much. And they have different point prices so...
Formosa wrote: Hmmm this does make standard deathwing terminators kind of meh, if I want storm Bolters backed with power fists I would just take cataphractii, if I want some extra weapons like the auto cannon or plasma blaster then Tartarus with extra mobility, the only benefit I can see is assault cannons or cyclones for standard termies, anyone else thinking he same?
Yes as far as these 2 types go they are very close but i think the weapon options of the standard Deathwing terms are a lot better. . It would be cool if the regular DW Sgt was able to get a combi-weapon but the real advantage with the regular terms is that you can take a storm shield or 2 in the squad to soak the high AP shots.
PhillyT wrote: I'm very hopeful that we see something interesting with the Deathwing. If its just fearless thats a pretty big fail when you consider the protection they are already going to get from Grim Resolve.
I certainly hope so because Grim resolve is basically worthless to DW. Need a little help in the special ability department to make DW a bit more attractive.
Uriels_Flame wrote: No update today? I see DA vs Tau is scheduled for Friday.
Last week the Blood Angels got their chapter focus like the Dark Angels on Monday. Then they got nothing until article on new units on Friday and the rather useless twitch stream discussion on Friday. I suspect it will be rather similar for Dark Angels.
Formosa wrote: Hmmm this does make standard deathwing terminators kind of meh, if I want storm Bolters backed with power fists I would just take cataphractii, if I want some extra weapons like the auto cannon or plasma blaster then Tartarus with extra mobility, the only benefit I can see is assault cannons or cyclones for standard termies, anyone else thinking he same?
Plasma Cannons on Terminators?
Because remember that the Deathwing Terminator kit has a Plasma Cannon.
Plasma cannon arguably suffers the most through competition with Tartaros and plasma blaster.
Heavy D3 vs. Assault 2 and the same damage profile. Average no. shots is the same, though Assault 2 means no -1 for shooting after moving (or deepstriking), not to mention the -1 effect on killing yourself, should you opt to overcharge.
Plasma cannon's got more range .. but whatever. You're getting close and personal with those, no?
Formosa wrote: Hmmm this does make standard deathwing terminators kind of meh, if I want storm Bolters backed with power fists I would just take cataphractii, if I want some extra weapons like the auto cannon or plasma blaster then Tartarus with extra mobility, the only benefit I can see is assault cannons or cyclones for standard termies, anyone else thinking he same?
Standard termies should be tad more mobile than cataphractii and if nothing else price. Of course GW being GW they can have screwed up balance there.
Formosa wrote: Hmmm this does make standard deathwing terminators kind of meh, if I want storm Bolters backed with power fists I would just take cataphractii, if I want some extra weapons like the auto cannon or plasma blaster then Tartarus with extra mobility, the only benefit I can see is assault cannons or cyclones for standard termies, anyone else thinking he same?
Plasma Cannons on Terminators?
Because remember that the Deathwing Terminator kit has a Plasma Cannon.
Plasma cannon arguably suffers the most through competition with Tartaros and plasma blaster.
Heavy D3 vs. Assault 2 and the same damage profile. Average no. shots is the same, though Assault 2 means no -1 for shooting after moving (or deepstriking), not to mention the -1 effect on killing yourself, should you opt to overcharge.
Plasma cannon's got more range .. but whatever. You're getting close and personal with those, no?
The issue here is that while Plasma Cannon suffers "competition" with Tartaros and the Plasma Blaster...that's ignoring that a squad of Deathwing Terminators can take more Plasma Cannons than a squad of Tartaros can Plasma Blasters.
Plasma Blasters/Volkite Chargers are only on the Sergeant. Plasma Cannons should be two models in the squad or potentially the whole of a Deathwing Command Squad.
A Deathwing Plasma Cannon equipped squad is going to be slinging out more shots with their Plasma Cannons than a Tartaros is with its sole Plasma Blaster.
I do feel it worth mentioning though that a Deathwing Terminator Squad is a bit more flexible in scope than a standard Terminator Squad. Have some melee Terminators coupled with Plasma Cannon Terminators; Combat Squad that stuff out and have some fun with it.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Are we sure Tartaros and Cataphractii get DW rules? DG Chaos Lords didn't get any DG-specific rules...
Which Chaos Lord?
Cataphractii statline, for Loyalists, is:
M4" other stats the same beyond a 3+ Invulnerable Save(Iron Halo and the Cataphractii Armor) and halving the result of the dice rolled for Advances.
"Standard" Terminator armor, for Loyalists, is M5" with a 4+ Invulnerable Save from his Iron Halo.
Lord of Contagion for Death Guard is the Cataphractii equipped one:
M4"...and a special rule called "Cataphractii Armor" that gives him a 4+ Invulnerable Save and halves the dice roll for Advancing. Typhus has the same thing.
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor has the M5" with 4+ Invulnerable Save(Sigil of Corruption instead of Iron Halo that the Loyalist has).
Loyalists didn't get Tartaros character rules though, just a unit. Fully expecting the same setup for Dark Angels.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote: Are we sure Tartaros and Cataphractii get DW rules? DG Chaos Lords didn't get any DG-specific rules...
They said you can add them to your DW, but no i suppose they didnt specifically say they got the DW rule, did anyone else notice if they did?
Warhammer Community wrote:Speaking of the Deathwing, there’s plenty in the new codex for fans of the 1st Company of the Unforgiven. Most excitingly, you can now clad your Deathwing in Cataphractii and Tartaros armour – the former providing nigh-unparalleled durability for your units, and the latter allowing for greater mobility.
Unless they don't understand the idea of what "clad" means...yeah, your Tartaros or Cataphractii will have the ability to be Deathwing.
JohnnyHell wrote: He's saying buy a ten-man squad to get 2 cannons, then combat squad as you see fit. Pretty smort. Noice.
What benefit it has over 2 squads of 5? At least tacticals etc it's better to have more for easier command points and sergeant gear. Termies have reason to take big squad?
JohnnyHell wrote: He's saying buy a ten-man squad to get 2 cannons, then combat squad as you see fit. Pretty smort. Noice.
What benefit it has over 2 squads of 5? At least tacticals etc it's better to have more for easier command points and sergeant gear. Termies have reason to take big squad?
Simple, after combat attaching, you get the 2 hvy weapon in one sqd as support and can reserve the other one for assault duties if equipped appropriately.
Let's say sqd of 10 termies.....2 Plasma Cannons (or whatever you want), Sgt with SB/PS, 2 SB/PF, 2 TH/SS, 2 LC, 1 SB/CF. Combat attach these so the 2 plascannons and SB/PF and sgt are support, then send the TH/SS, LC and chainfist into assault.
yeah but as was said, it makes it a bit tougher to get command points taking 10 man DW squads, on top of the fact that if your taking CC terms, Knights should be the only ones you take. TH/SS/LC standard terms don't hold a candle to knights.
bobafett012 wrote: yeah but as was said, it makes it a bit tougher to get command points taking 10 man DW squads, on top of the fact that if your taking CC terms, Knights should be the only ones you take. TH/SS/LC standard terms don't hold a candle to knights.
All the benefits of TH/SS none of the loses, love them Knights
cuda1179 wrote: Although, you can't mount a rack of cyclone missiles to the top of a Knight.
Clearly, but It was suggested to run a 10 man terminator squad, with 2 plasma cannons (or whatever you fancy), 3 shooty terms, and 5 CC terms and combat squad them to get both heavy weapons in the same group. For many reasons i think you'd just be better off with Knights and squads of regular terms. TH/SS terms aren't nearly what they once were. No +1 attack on the charge, TH are unwieldly now, all squads can split fire now, easier to get more CPs with smaller squads. The only real benefit i see is if you only want to run 2 squads, this allows you to get 2 heavy weapons and CC terms with only having to purchase 10 terms, where as my way requires 15 terms. Then again, I play DW, so I have a whole army list of DW to fill so.
Why are people talking about Terminator plasma cannons...
Devastators can pack 4 plasma cannons in a 5 man squad with a cheaper base price, 1 model at BS5 and cheap ablative wounds.
4 of those in a squad with rerollable 1's and 36 inch range. 2 wound damage with D3 heavy. And you can even overwatch them now. Plus a plasma cannon in every dark vengeance kit. Ebay. 2 easy.
And god forbid you have to move them 6" and fire at BS3 for a turn oh noooo.
Termies dont even get relentless any more or rerolls on DS. Why even bother lol.
I cant even believe this chapter tactic isnt a joke.
I cant even believe this chapter tactic isnt a joke.
Why? Its a free shooting benefit and a mitigation for extreme rolls on morale. I'd be willing to argue the BA one is better, but this is still better than most of the traitor or loyalist chapter/legion tactics.
TedNugent wrote: No, I'm saying its a little over the top. Like I'm saying it makes it too easy to double the damage output of stationary plasma units.
I was already making plasma cannon devs. Now this is a lock. I'm buying more plasma cannons.
Over the top?!? It's worthless for 2/3rds of the army. Ravenwing never just sit still and fire, that's kind of the whole point of them, mobility, and Deathwing, at least my deathwing, are DSing in, counts as moving, and usually moving forward every turn to either get into CC, or walking away from dangerous CC units.
Is it good for Greenwing, Azreal parking lot lists? sure, i certainly hope that's not what our army lists devolve into as it's a shame because we have essentially 3 unique armies in 1. If GW hasn't realized this yet and really devised a "chapter tactic" for each wing, then the other 2 wings are going to be lacking pretty heavily imo.
TedNugent wrote: No, I'm saying its a little over the top. Like I'm saying it makes it too easy to double the damage output of stationary plasma units.
I was already making plasma cannon devs. Now this is a lock. I'm buying more plasma cannons.
Over the top?!? It's worthless for 2/3rds of the army. Ravenwing never just sit still and fire, that's kind of the whole point of them, mobility, and Deathwing, at least my deathwing, are DSing in, counts as moving, and usually moving forward every turn to either get into CC, or walking away from dangerous CC units.
Is it good for Greenwing, Azreal parking lot lists? sure, i certainly hope that's not what our army lists devolve into as it's a shame because we have essentially 3 unique armies in 1. If GW hasn't realized this yet and really devised a "chapter tactic" for each wing, then the other 2 wings are going to be lacking pretty heavily imo.
That's another reason why I dont really like the rule and one reason why I think using it on Terminators is silly. You're automatically forfeiting it by attempting an assault, deep strike or run. Seems 100% contrary to RW and DW units.
I'm automatically min-maxing in my head, and this is useless for Ravenwing and DW. To be fair, if you were using Azrael you could already reroll 1's.
Maybe a Primaris Lt would be better with these rules.
But seriously this rule makes 4 plasma cannon devs pretty compaeatively efficient in terms of raw damage output at 36".
I don't see the issue. The Blood Angels trait is completely irrelevant to Devastators & even just basic tacticals as well. Stuff like Imperial Fist might never come up in a game at all. Cadia and Kronos are easily considered among the top traits for Guard and Nids. Nids!! because even in a more cc oriented army, the heavy bias towards shooting makes the trait amazing.
Dark Angels trait is probably in the Top 3 Loyalist Space Marine traits. All the benefits of a gun castle while also being able to spread out, cover the board much more efficiently and hold more objectives. And a LD bonus on top, which Kronos for example doesn't get (in an army with less units that can take advantage of it?) is just straight-up power creep for the feth of it.
Sunny Side Up wrote: I don't see the issue. The Blood Angels trait is completely irrelevant to Devastators & even just basic tacticals as well. Stuff like Imperial Fist might never come up in a game at all. Cadia and Kronos are easily considered among the top traits for Guard and Nids. Nids!! because even in a more cc oriented army, the heavy bias towards shooting makes the trait amazing.
Dark Angels trait is probably in the Top 3 Loyalist Space Marine traits. All the benefits of a gun castle while also being able to spread out, cover the board much more efficiently and hold more objectives. And a LD bonus on top, which Kronos for example doesn't get (in an army with less units that can take advantage of it?) is just straight-up power creep for the feth of it.
Kronos is considered a top fleet because of it's warlord trait and stratagem. The HFA has little to do with it, it's a nice little bonus, but nothing more.
Sunny Side Up wrote: I don't see the issue. The Blood Angels trait is completely irrelevant to Devastators & even just basic tacticals as well. Stuff like Imperial Fist might never come up in a game at all. Cadia and Kronos are easily considered among the top traits for Guard and Nids. Nids!! because even in a more cc oriented army, the heavy bias towards shooting makes the trait amazing.
Dark Angels trait is probably in the Top 3 Loyalist Space Marine traits. All the benefits of a gun castle while also being able to spread out, cover the board much more efficiently and hold more objectives. And a LD bonus on top, which Kronos for example doesn't get (in an army with less units that can take advantage of it?) is just straight-up power creep for the feth of it.
I disagree with your BA take. BA are my second army and their CT can absolutely be relevant to non CC units as well. The fact that it's turned on when they GET charged as well allows your backfield objective holders to be able to hold their own if charged because they often are the targets of opponents assault elements. Intercessors have 2 attacks base, and would wound on 3's. that's not too bad if they absolutely must get into CC.
I couldn't disagree more about grim resolve. It's literally non existent for my Deathwing army, it's non existent for peoples Ravenwing armies, and it's non existent for RW/DW mixed army. Even if you play all 3 wings, possibly only 1/3rd of your army is even taking advantage of it and, as was pointed out above, if your running Azreal, it's pretty much useless because your greenwing units are likely around Azrael for full re-rolls. It's absolutely not top 3 in my opinion. I would easily rank half or more of the SMCTs ahead of this one. I would go so far as to say this is an example of the opposite of power creep. But this is just my opinion, and maybe i'm in the minority.
I disagree with your BA take. BA are my second army and their CT can absolutely be relevant to non CC units as well. The fact that it's turned on when they GET charged as well allows your backfield objective holders to be able to hold their own if charged because they often are the targets of opponents assault elements. Intercessors have 2 attacks base, and would wound on 3's. that's not too bad if they absolutely must get into CC.
I couldn't disagree more about grim resolve. It's literally non existent for my Deathwing army, it's non existent for peoples Ravenwing armies, and it's non existent for RW/DW mixed army. Even if you play all 3 wings, possibly only 1/3rd of your army is even taking advantage of it and, as was pointed out above, if your running Azreal, it's pretty much useless because your greenwing units are likely around Azrael for full re-rolls. It's absolutely not top 3 in my opinion. I would easily rank half or more of the SMCTs ahead of this one. I would go so far as to say this is an example of the opposite of power creep. But this is just my opinion, and maybe i'm in the minority.
That seems internally contradicting.
Of course the BA trait "can" be relevant for backfield units in some circumstances, but so "can" Grim Resolve be relevant for Terminators or Bikes if they don't move.
The latter will probably happen more often than the former actually, given 8th Edition's emphasis on shooting AND will be more game relevant when it happens as Plasmatalons or Terminators with Heavy Weapons re-rolling 1s (occasionally) will have a far bigger impact on the game than Blood Angels Devastators getting a +1 to wound when they try to clobber Berzerkers or Genestealers that made it into the back lines with their Lascannons.
If you consider Grim Resolve "practically" non-existent for Deathwing/Ravenwing, than the BA trait is equally "practically" non-existent for every BA unit mainly using a shooty weapon. If you wanna count the technicality that even Devastators might get stuck in cc, you have to equally account for the (far more likely) technicality of Terminators or Bikes not moving once in a while (e.g. sitting on an objective or simply having teleported into a good firing position).
It's probably almost impossible to play a game and not get a use out of Grim Resolve somewhere in the game, unless you're actively trying. Stuff like Ultrarmarines usually isn't even used in 3 out of 4 games you play, given the Guard/Ad-Cawl-Mech/Smite-spam/Alaitoc meta these days.
Pretty much this. The in the Podcast that FLG put up today they mentioned the updated fluff and basically said it heavily hinted at his coming back. Though, he is not in the book.
If Wolves don't get Russ back in their book first, sometime in the Spring, I would imagine its the Lion that's the next Primarch release.
And if the Brits have a nod to the past in them at all, my conspiracy guess would be it coincides with the death of Richard the First "The Lion Heart" on April 6th. Which happens to be a Friday in 2018 and perfect for their normal release schedule.
Coincidentally (or maybe not) If the Ultramarines are Roman in their design (names etc), Gulliman was release in March. Caesar was of course assassinated March 15th.
And if the Brits have a nod to the past in them at all, my conspiracy guess would be it coincides with the death of Richard the First "The Lion Heart" on April 6th. Which happens to be a Friday in 2018 and perfect for their normal release schedule.
Coincidentally (or maybe not) If the Ultramarines are Roman in their design (names etc), Gulliman was release in March. Caesar was of course assassinated March 15th.
So let the conspiracy flow!
If this level of planning actually does go into the release, i will be happily astounded and, a little proud i guess!
Of course the BA trait "can" be relevant for backfield units in some circumstances, but so "can" Grim Resolve be relevant for Terminators or Bikes if they don't move.
The latter will probably happen more often than the former actually, given 8th Edition's emphasis on shooting AND will be more game relevant when it happens as Plasmatalons or Terminators with Heavy Weapons re-rolling 1s (occasionally) will have a far bigger impact on the game than Blood Angels Devastators getting a +1 to wound when they try to clobber Berzerkers or Genestealers that made it into the back lines with their Lascannons.
If you consider Grim Resolve "practically" non-existent for Deathwing/Ravenwing, than the BA trait is equally "practically" non-existent for every BA unit mainly using a shooty weapon. If you wanna count the technicality that even Devastators might get stuck in cc, you have to equally account for the (far more likely) technicality of Terminators or Bikes not moving once in a while (e.g. sitting on an objective or simply having teleported into a good firing position).
It's probably almost impossible to play a game and not get a use out of Grim Resolve somewhere in the game, unless you're actively trying. Stuff like Ultrarmarines usually isn't even used in 3 out of 4 games you play, given the Guard/Ad-Cawl-Mech/Smite-spam/Alaitoc meta these days.
BA, to me, are a CC based army and should be played that way, i'm just stating that their trait, not only can be utilized by shooty units, but it's also EXTREMELY powerful for melee units. +1 on wound rolls with a power axe means your wounding on 2's vs MEQ, that's pretty crazy but neither here nor there. Grim resolve however can't be used by vehicles, units that moved/DS etc, nor can it be used by units that don't have ranged weapons, such as Knights.
I'm not saying you will never utilize it, even in RW/DW, but just thinking back on my past 6 games, there has only been a couple occasions where my terms sat still, and guess what, they were either near Azreal or Belial making the ability %100 useless, and the morale part also useless, at least it was because DW were immune to morale. What do people do with Ravenwing? run them in groups next to Sammael because re-rolling ALL misses is better than just re-rolling 1's not to mention the fact that Belial, Sammael, and Azreal are all really good in their own right.
It's just not a very powerful CT at all imo. We can agree to disagree but, i haven't seen too many people that think it's a good CT after you stop and think about the 2/3rds of the army that is usually on the move, and the fact that ALL 3 of the "wings" HQs allow total re-rolls already. It's redundant.
It means you don't have to cluster up in aura bubbles, but that's it. Azrael/Belial already do the ChapTac but better, as noted. I'm holding out for some nice useful Stratagems before I pass judgement, but it hardly rewards daring mobile/teleporter assaults that the Wings want to be doing. I don't wanna play gunline... I have Guard for that. On the plus side I may get to field my Plasma Cannons.
BA, to me, are a CC based army and should be played that way, i'm just stating that their trait, not only can be utilized by shooty units, but it's also EXTREMELY powerful for melee units. +1 on wound rolls with a power axe means your wounding on 2's vs MEQ, that's pretty crazy but neither here nor there. Grim resolve however can't be used by vehicles, units that moved/DS etc, nor can it be used by units that don't have ranged weapons, such as Knights.
Nah. Obviously BA can be played for CC, but that's certainly not the only way they can and should be played. Perhaps it is inevitable that with the new trait system pigeonholing a lot of armies, we'll not have the fantastical breadth and diversity of something like the 5th Edition BA Codex, but there're many, many players who still have BA armies with a fast mechanized theme, a March of the Ancients/Dread theme, a psychic heavy theme, and of course more conventional BA armies with a solid backline and tactical base, combined with a few hard hitting CC-elements.
BA, to me, are a CC based army and should be played that way, i'm just stating that their trait, not only can be utilized by shooty units, but it's also EXTREMELY powerful for melee units. +1 on wound rolls with a power axe means your wounding on 2's vs MEQ, that's pretty crazy but neither here nor there. Grim resolve however can't be used by vehicles, units that moved/DS etc, nor can it be used by units that don't have ranged weapons, such as Knights.
Nah. Obviously BA can be played for CC, but that's certainly not the only way they can and should be played. Perhaps it is inevitable that with the new trait system pigeonholing a lot of armies, we'll not have the fantastical breadth and diversity of something like the 5th Edition BA Codex, but there're many, many players who still have BA armies with a fast mechanized theme, a March of the Ancients/Dread theme, a psychic heavy theme, and of course more conventional BA armies with a solid backline and tactical base, combined with a few hard hitting CC-elements.
Yeah. Too bad people seem to forget that at the end of it BA&DA are still mostly codex adherent army. Tacticals are still core of BA and tacticals aren't CC monsters.
BA, to me, are a CC based army and should be played that way, i'm just stating that their trait, not only can be utilized by shooty units, but it's also EXTREMELY powerful for melee units. +1 on wound rolls with a power axe means your wounding on 2's vs MEQ, that's pretty crazy but neither here nor there. Grim resolve however can't be used by vehicles, units that moved/DS etc, nor can it be used by units that don't have ranged weapons, such as Knights.
Nah. Obviously BA can be played for CC, but that's certainly not the only way they can and should be played. Perhaps it is inevitable that with the new trait system pigeonholing a lot of armies, we'll not have the fantastical breadth and diversity of something like the 5th Edition BA Codex, but there're many, many players who still have BA armies with a fast mechanized theme, a March of the Ancients/Dread theme, a psychic heavy theme, and of course more conventional BA armies with a solid backline and tactical base, combined with a few hard hitting CC-elements.
Yeah. Too bad people seem to forget that at the end of it BA&DA are still mostly codex adherent army. Tacticals are still core of BA and tacticals aren't CC monsters.
Yeah. Too bad people forget fluff =/= collecting. This is like those posts where someone complains about a White Scars army being all bikes, Custodes simply existing, someone having collected Deathwing Knights (that are CC). Lording fluff over people is silly when crunch and model ranges don't always match it.
If you complain about someone with a Deathwing army wanting viable CC, why aren't you kicking off that the Ultramarines Codex now seems to read "Though Shalt Spam Razorbacks", or that every third army contains a Primarch?
Just let people collect what they want and air their gripes. People are allowed to be disappointed in a disappointing Chapter Tactic. Telling them "you should have different models to fit my view of your fluff" is just silly.
Even though I currently play RW I think that GR is a mid tier trait. It's got it's uses but is not overwhelming. The morale part is mostly a non issue as nobody takes 10 man sqds anymore. It's all 5 man tac, dev, etc.
If my RW decide to go mixed wing then it's actually better as I don't want to invest in a character to babysit backfield units as they will be up front with my bikes. A dev, scout or helblaster sqd holding back objectives will not be accompanied by a character so will benefit from the reroll 1s.
bullyboy wrote: Even though I currently play RW I think that GR is a mid tier trait. It's got it's uses but is not overwhelming. The morale part is mostly a non issue as nobody takes 10 man sqds anymore. It's all 5 man tac, dev, etc.
If my RW decide to go mixed wing then it's actually better as I don't want to invest in a character to babysit backfield units as they will be up front with my bikes. A dev, scout or helblaster sqd holding back objectives will not be accompanied by a character so will benefit from the reroll 1s.
Yeah it is more flexible for deployment which is nice, can spread out and not suffer much in losing reroll ability.
JohnnyHell wrote: Yeah. Too bad people forget fluff =/= collecting. This is like those posts where someone complains about a White Scars army being all bikes, Custodes simply existing, someone having collected Deathwing Knights (that are CC). Lording fluff over people is silly when crunch and model ranges don't always match it.
If you complain about someone with a Deathwing army wanting viable CC, why aren't you kicking off that the Ultramarines Codex now seems to read "Though Shalt Spam Razorbacks", or that every third army contains a Primarch?
Just let people collect what they want and air their gripes. People are allowed to be disappointed in a disappointing Chapter Tactic. Telling them "you should have different models to fit my view of your fluff" is just silly.
But by pigeon holing rules to force players to play their army in form X when that's not actually how they actually work interferes with collecting that army.
When you have white scars with rule that pretty much forces player to play bike horde or throw away his chapter tactic you get in way of people wanting to play white scars as they are actually described in fluff which is not all bikes stupidity.
Similarly if Blood Angels don't work as TAC codex adhering chapter but instead go to some weird assault marine/death company/sanguinor guard alpha strike melee army that's invalidating tons of blood angel armies.
JohnnyHell wrote: Yeah. Too bad people forget fluff =/= collecting. This is like those posts where someone complains about a White Scars army being all bikes, Custodes simply existing, someone having collected Deathwing Knights (that are CC). Lording fluff over people is silly when crunch and model ranges don't always match it.
If you complain about someone with a Deathwing army wanting viable CC, why aren't you kicking off that the Ultramarines Codex now seems to read "Though Shalt Spam Razorbacks", or that every third army contains a Primarch?
Just let people collect what they want and air their gripes. People are allowed to be disappointed in a disappointing Chapter Tactic. Telling them "you should have different models to fit my view of your fluff" is just silly.
But by pigeon holing rules to force players to play their army in form X when that's not actually how they actually work interferes with collecting that army.
When you have white scars with rule that pretty much forces player to play bike horde or throw away his chapter tactic you get in way of people wanting to play white scars as they are actually described in fluff which is not all bikes stupidity.
Similarly if Blood Angels don't work as TAC codex adhering chapter but instead go to some weird assault marine/death company/sanguinor guard alpha strike melee army that's invalidating tons of blood angel armies.
Stupid pigeon holing rules are huge problem.
Anyone can play a fully Codex-adherent army using Codex: Blue Marines and counts-as. Nothing invalidates the adherent style if that's how you want to play.
It makes sense that the split Codexes get the 'flavourful' and non-adherent rules, else there's no point in the book.
Mental Surge wrote: so green space marines get a codex before Necrons, Tau, Okrs and Dark Eldar after regular space marines already got one? And this is why 40k sucks.
They even got their second one, as Codex Chaos Space Marines is avaiable for quite some time.
Mental Surge wrote: so green space marines get a codex before Necrons, Tau, Okrs and Dark Eldar after regular space marines already got one? And this is why 40k sucks.
Seeing as it looks like all the major codicies are going to be out by easter, no-one can really complain when compared to previous release schedules.
JohnnyHell wrote: Yeah. Too bad people forget fluff =/= collecting. This is like those posts where someone complains about a White Scars army being all bikes, Custodes simply existing, someone having collected Deathwing Knights (that are CC). Lording fluff over people is silly when crunch and model ranges don't always match it.
If you complain about someone with a Deathwing army wanting viable CC, why aren't you kicking off that the Ultramarines Codex now seems to read "Though Shalt Spam Razorbacks", or that every third army contains a Primarch?
Just let people collect what they want and air their gripes. People are allowed to be disappointed in a disappointing Chapter Tactic. Telling them "you should have different models to fit my view of your fluff" is just silly.
But by pigeon holing rules to force players to play their army in form X when that's not actually how they actually work interferes with collecting that army.
When you have white scars with rule that pretty much forces player to play bike horde or throw away his chapter tactic you get in way of people wanting to play white scars as they are actually described in fluff which is not all bikes stupidity.
Similarly if Blood Angels don't work as TAC codex adhering chapter but instead go to some weird assault marine/death company/sanguinor guard alpha strike melee army that's invalidating tons of blood angel armies.
Stupid pigeon holing rules are huge problem.
People should not being tying to have it both ways. Either the army is "different" to normal Marines and needs a separate codex - or it isn't and it doesn't. Otherwise its the old I want to have cake and eat it.
Angels and Wolves have currently got codexes for good or ill (my vote is the latter) but they can't simply be Codex Marines plus extra stuff or why is there a Codex Marines at all.
All three were originally mainly codex adherent - with a few minor changes but sadly every new edition of their dex means gotta have more wulfy Wulf stuff or more Bloody Blood stuff or more monk stuff to self justify their existence and sell new models for this subfaction.
There is a vicious circle at the moment - these codex's need new models (have to keep making new Marines rather than the dozens of other non marine models that need making) and so have to have ever increasing flanderisation - especially with the Wulfy Wulf Wolves but the other two are following.
Seeing as it looks like all the major codicies are going to be out by easter, no-one can really complain when compared to previous release schedules
The old release schedule was terrible - this is not good either if you happen to want anything other than marines in the first 6-8th months of the game.
Mental Surge wrote: so green space marines get a codex before Necrons, Tau, Okrs and Dark Eldar after regular space marines already got one? And this is why 40k sucks.
Anyone who wants to play 40K needs to be aware that SMs sell more than everything else put together. Unsurprisingly, GW prioritise SM books and kits.
You have to either accept this, or do a different game.
Mental Surge wrote: so green space marines get a codex before Necrons, Tau, Okrs and Dark Eldar after regular space marines already got one? And this is why 40k sucks.
I dont understand that unless the reality of 40k is discounted. Space marines pay the bills for GW as for every Dark Eldar player I imagine there are at least 50 space marine players. It's just how it is.
Dark Angels and Blood Angels have been able to bash the Index with the basic Space Marine codex to have a very reasonable army (particularly with Chapter Approved available for points changes - though they didn't get any because of hte Codices).
I do agree that the special chapter codices should have likely been last. It's far easier to cope with a generic Space Marine codex than just an Index for other Xenos armies. It would have been a nice nod to the rest of the player base.
Mental Surge wrote: so green space marines get a codex before Necrons, Tau, Okrs and Dark Eldar after regular space marines already got one? And this is why 40k sucks.
Anyone who wants to play 40K needs to be aware that SMs sell more than everything else put together. Unsurprisingly, GW prioritise SM books and kits.
You have to either accept this, or do a different game.
No one has to accept anything - this is a long standing self fulfilling prophercy.
If you spend virtually all of your resources on marketing one element of the game then only release new models for various differnt coloured Marines in the last six months - wierdly they sell the most.
I am quite interested in the DA fluff for the new Codex with all th changes in the universe but worry it will continue the trend of the last few.
I find the Vanilla SM codex to be pretty underwhelming. I played a WS Biker list with Flyer support in 6th and 7th. Can't find myself excited about list writing in 8th. I don't use Guilliman. I don't use Razor backs. I don't even use Troops.
We have a player who collects DA as well as Primaris UM. He utilizes the Scion of Guilliman strategem regularly. To me, Grim Resolve saves him a CP. Remember, GW is pushing the Primaris as the new Marines. If you can't see Grim Resolve (and the +1Dam strategem) being made for Hell blasters specifically, I have some news for you....
Its a expensive but flexible Stratagem. Is not something to build your strategy around. Is something you use when the moment is ideal, and can you win you the game. Or help to it.
Galas wrote: Its a expensive but flexible Stratagem. Is not something to build your strategy around. Is something you use when the moment is ideal, and can you win you the game. Or help to it.
Would have loved this in a game the other day. Enemy assault termies grab my land raider in combat. It survives but needs to back out to let my other guys into the combat (tight terrain, no time to run around). Problem is, they've got TH/SS, my boys only have lightening claws.
Being able to unload a full land raider volley into them before charging would have been super helpful.
Dark Angels and Blood Angels have been able to bash the Index with the basic Space Marine codex to have a very reasonable army (particularly with Chapter Approved available for points changes - though they didn't get any because of hte Codices).
I do agree that the special chapter codices should have likely been last. It's far easier to cope with a generic Space Marine codex than just an Index for other Xenos armies. It would have been a nice nod to the rest of the player base.
There are two sides to this coin; the snowflake chapters reuse a lot from the vanilla book, but many people play them for their unique units. BA and DA probably sell more than dark eldar or tau. Makes more sense to put in the low effort required for snowflake marines and please more people than more work for less people.
bobafett012 wrote: Another over priced strategem. 2 CPs for a single unit that ultrmarines can do for free.
Ultra Marines can do it, but at -1 to hit. Also, that's their chapter tactic, so DA get something in addition too. Not to mention DA can do it with vehicles.
A friend of mine who's a dark angel player pointed something out to me, if you park a Hellblaster squad next to one of those plasma terrain pieces in am industrial zone, and then used the Dark Age stratagem, you could have 20 S9 Ap-4 D4 shots.
Throw in Azrael and a lieutenant in for those re rolls and laugh as that shadow sword is now gone.
I know it's extremely situational but its still crazy to think about
Mental Surge wrote: so green space marines get a codex before Necrons, Tau, Okrs and Dark Eldar after regular space marines already got one? And this is why 40k sucks.
Anyone who wants to play 40K needs to be aware that SMs sell more than everything else put together. Unsurprisingly, GW prioritise SM books and kits.
You have to either accept this, or do a different game.
No one has to accept anything - this is a long standing self fulfilling prophercy.
If you spend virtually all of your resources on marketing one element of the game then only release new models for various differnt coloured Marines in the last six months - wierdly they sell the most.
I am quite interested in the DA fluff for the new Codex with all th changes in the universe but worry it will continue the trend of the last few.
Except that is not true.
GW spend the better part of 3 decades giving 40K and Warhammer Fantasy the exact same amount of releases. One Codex 40K, one Army book Fantasy, one plastic kit 40K, one plastic kit Fantasy. And never were they equally popular or was the demand from customers responsive to the relative amount of effort and resources GW spent.
They cannot control demand, even if they try. They were themselves surprised by the success of Space Marines in the first place. Companies much, much bigger than GW, including some of the world's largest corporations such as Coca Cola, McDonalds, Apple, the big car makers, etc.. have all tried to steer demand, and yet they cannot control which product will be classic coke and which one will be new coke, which one will be the next iPhone and which one will be Apple TV.
It doesn't work that way.
GW can only answer to the demand that is out there. And if 60% of the customers want Space Marines, than 60% of the releases should be Space Marines. Putting only .. dunno 10% of your resources into products that make up the 60% of the demand, while putting the same 10% into an army that is only demanded by 5% of the customer base is not only unfair to your customers but also commercial suicide.
Mental Surge wrote: so green space marines get a codex before Necrons, Tau, Okrs and Dark Eldar after regular space marines already got one? And this is why 40k sucks.
They said 2017 would be a heavy focus on IoM and chaos. Next year a bigger focus on xenos. Shock and awe, the bulk of xenos come out next year and we end this one with more IoM. Who would have thought they would do what they said.
Mental Surge wrote: so green space marines get a codex before Necrons, Tau, Okrs and Dark Eldar after regular space marines already got one? And this is why 40k sucks.
They said 2017 would be a heavy focus on IoM and chaos. Next year a bigger focus on xenos. Shock and awe, the bulk of xenos come out next year and we end this one with more IoM. Who would have thought they would do what they said.
bobafett012 wrote: Another over priced strategem. 2 CPs for a single unit that ultrmarines can do for free.
At this point your reminding me of a kid I new growing up in the 90's who used to brag about beating video games on his game genie, I mean do you really need your army to play itself in order to win or even have enjoyment? Nothing released is bad, most of it is incredibly strong.
bobafett012 wrote: Another over priced strategem. 2 CPs for a single unit that ultrmarines can do for free.
At this point your reminding me of a kid I new growing up in the 90's who used to brag about beating video games on his game genie, I mean do you really need your army to play itself in order to win or even have enjoyment? Nothing released is bad, most of it is incredibly strong.
I've entertained the fact that some of this stuff will be good for certain portions of the army or certain units, but to sit here and say most of this is "incredibly strong" is so asinine, I can't even believe we play the same army. Situational, is not strong imo.
Getting that out of the way, I play DW, and us DW players certainly aren't winning tons of games. I just wanted so shinies for my army, so please point me in the direction of the "incredibly strong" stuff for MY DA army please because I've yet to see anything other than 1 strategem that helps knights be slightly tougher than they are now.
Maybe they've not even shown the DW stuff yet but I doubt it, I've seen how GW does the DA since 2nd edition, only about 1 edition i can think of, have they been a strong army.
By the way, thanks for being a complete donkey-cave, simply because you don't like my opinion. Who's the child....
DW redemptor dread falling back from combat and unleashing fire with no modifier....sounds good to me.
And you know there will be a Strategem that links DW deep strike with RW.
DW are not an army, just like RW aren't. If you chose to limit yourself to a small subportion of an army, its just on you. It will always be at a disadvantage than playing with the full Dark Angel rosters of tactical options.
EDIT: I realize this sounds a little rude, but it is what it is. I know that DW and RW, are not like other Space Marine chapters first and second companys. They have their own solid theme, their own "chapter master", their own variety, etc... but they are still a small portion of a whole Space Marine Chapter. They shouldn't work unsupported, at least not at the level of a whole dark angels army.
Speed of the Raven should make RW happy. Forgive me, I'm not doing a screen capture, but 1 CP and you can advance, shoot, and charge in the same turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galas wrote: DW are not an army, just like RW aren't. If you chose to limit yourself to a small subportion of an army, its just on you. It will always be at a disadvantage than playing with the full Dark Angel rosters of tactical options.
EDIT: I realize this sounds a little rude, but it is what it is. I know that DW and RW, are not like other Space Marine chapters first and second companys. They have their own solid theme, their own "chapter master", their own variety, etc... but they are still a small portion of a whole Space Marine Chapter. They shouldn't work unsupported, at least not at the level of a whole dark angels army.
The thing is, of course, that this kind of army was very much encouraged and many people still own full DW or RW armies from when it was. Now the shift has changed to more inclusive lists despite the fluffy nature of the pure DW/RW lists (Most novels include all 1st or all 2nd company elements for example) and those players effectively have their armies squatted.
Galas wrote: DW are not an army, just like RW aren't. If you chose to limit yourself to a small subportion of an army, its just on you. It will always be at a disadvantage than playing with the full Dark Angel rosters of tactical options.
EDIT: I realize this sounds a little rude, but it is what it is. I know that DW and RW, are not like other Space Marine chapters first and second companys. They have their own solid theme, their own "chapter master", their own variety, etc... but they are still a small portion of a whole Space Marine Chapter. They shouldn't work unsupported, at least not at the level of a whole dark angels army.
I used to be a pure DW player but I have evolved. I run RW in my DW army now. I just haven't seen anything that benefits DW yet other than 1 strategem which is decent but i'd like to see more from what is essentially 1/3rd of the army. I am sure there is more, and we just haven't seen it yet, but that doesn't change the fact that I don't feel much of what has been spoiled is, say, on the same level as the BA stuff, my other army. The rules BA got I think are crazy good, but that's neither here nor there.
The Primaris of the Dark Angels do not yet know anything about the Fallen. In fact, for the elite Veteran's point of view of the Dark Angels, the Primaris are cannon fodder, human shields and little else.
This makes me so happy.
A little explanation for why Primaris can't use old vehicles (We all know is a pure marketing move but whatever):
The Primaris do not use Land Raiders because on the one hand, they have not been trained to use technologies from the old Marines (just as the old Marines are not trained to use Repulsors), and on the other hand, the Chapter veterans do not want to leave their venerable technology in the hands of novices.
Sammael's Corvex jet bike is not the last of its kind in the Imperium.
Sammael in Saberclaw no longer has the rule that made it possible to target shooting despite being a character of less than 10 Wounds.
the only psychic power we hven't seen was spoiled. Righteous repugnance, WC7, a friendly DA unit within 12" of psyker can re-roll all failed hits and wound rolls from melee weapons until start of next psychic phase. the last 3 are the same as index.
Storm raven is in the book, along with contemptor. Sammael can be on jetbike or land speeder and land speeder is character with like 7 wounds and is untargetable now.
No deathwing or ravenwing as troops
no masters of the DW or RW
terms in cataphracti or tartaros are DW
Jink is the same as index
Inner circle is auto pass morale, and re-roll hits against fallen
LS strom and scout bikers not RW
talked about some strategems.
RW strat called stasis shells for 1cp. Replaces regular attack and does D3 mortal wounds if hits.
DW strat called Deathwing Assault for, i thought he said 2 or 3 CP, but i don't know exactly what it does. He said DW terms get to fire after DS. they already can do that, so maybe just a free round of shooting? I don't know how many units it affects, hopefully if it costs 3, all of them that DS....
He said DW do have some abilities after they DS but didn't go into any details.
he went over 2 relics. The Eye of the Unseen, enemy units within 3" of bearer has -1 leader ship and fights last in fight phase. Mace of redemption, power maul, +3 str, -3 AP and i didn't catch the damage, and you get re-rolls vs something, fallen maybe?
went over 2 warlord traits, huntsman being one, the other Master of Maneuver. It allows all DA units within 6" to re-roll charge distances.
He said RW got a lot of point reductions
Azreal Helm got nerfed, only shields infantry and bikers, he gained and extra CP, so 2 now, and gets a re-roll, once per game.
bobafett012 wrote:
DW strat called Deathwing Assault for, i thought he said 2 or 3 CP, but i don't know exactly what it does. He said DW terms get to fire after DS. they already can do that, so maybe just a free round of shooting? I don't know how many units it affects, hopefully if it costs 3, all of them that DS....
I'm under the impression that they get to shoot when they Deep Strike and then shoot normally.
Mental Surge wrote: so green space marines get a codex before Necrons, Tau, Okrs and Dark Eldar after regular space marines already got one? And this is why 40k sucks.
They said 2017 would be a heavy focus on IoM and chaos. Next year a bigger focus on xenos. Shock and awe, the bulk of xenos come out next year and we end this one with more IoM. Who would have thought they would do what they said.
Lets see what happens...........
Pretty sure the codex releases will continue.
I'm unclear what you think the alternative might be.
bobafett012 wrote:
DW strat called Deathwing Assault for, i thought he said 2 or 3 CP, but i don't know exactly what it does. He said DW terms get to fire after DS. they already can do that, so maybe just a free round of shooting? I don't know how many units it affects, hopefully if it costs 3, all of them that DS....
I'm under the impression that they get to shoot when they Deep Strike and then shoot normally.
That's what I assumed but does it work for ALL DSDW units, just 1, why the 2 or 3 CPs, or did he just not know.
I do think it's funny that they write an article touting large DW squads because of the Grim Resolve CT, and yet, all the DW have inner circle, and there for are immune to morale, just as they were in the codex.....
He also said what sounded like DW had some special abilities after they DS. I wish he'd have went into details. Hopefully something other than a re-roll to hit, we got enough of those from everywhere else. +1 AP or re-roll wounds of 1, or something like that would be cool.
Spoletta wrote: Jinx is NOT the old one. It's 4++ and works in melee.
True, i was just writing down what he said. He said it was the same as index but he said it was 4++ and worked in CC with that strategem for RW.
So Jink is 5++ vs shooting if advance, but with a stratagem it becomes 4++ and works in meele too? Hmmm. If that stratagem is 1CP isn't bad.
no, i think the guy didn't really know what the index version was, he said a couple times he wasn't sure of some of the changes between the index and codex. I'm pretty sure it's a 4++, works in melee also as he specifically said, if you use that RW strat, advance and charge, they would have a 4++ in CC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some of the characters came down in points too.
Asmodai down to 130, Ezekiel down to 135, and I believe both Sammaels are down. If i heardhim right, Sammael on corvus is like 160 something, and Sammael in Sableclaw is 183.
bobafett012 wrote:
DW strat called Deathwing Assault for, i thought he said 2 or 3 CP, but i don't know exactly what it does. He said DW terms get to fire after DS. they already can do that, so maybe just a free round of shooting? I don't know how many units it affects, hopefully if it costs 3, all of them that DS....
I'm under the impression that they get to shoot when they Deep Strike and then shoot normally.
That's what I assumed but does it work for ALL DSDW units, just 1, why the 2 or 3 CPs, or did he just not know.
Pure speculation on my part, but it might be that it allows for you to DS a Deathwing unit out of sequence.
I do think it's funny that they write an article touting large DW squads because of the Grim Resolve CT, and yet, all the DW have inner circle, and there for are immune to morale, just as they were in the codex.....
Quite likely it's future-proofing in case, say, they add a Psychic Power that allows for stripping away the "Autopass" part of that...it's also possible that Inner Circle auto-pass when fighting Chaos or something of that nature.
He also said what sounded like DW had some special abilities after they DS. I wish he'd have went into details. Hopefully something other than a re-roll to hit, we got enough of those from everywhere else. +1 AP or re-roll wounds of 1, or something like that would be cool.
Most likely it's the ability to shoot twice or not have -1 to Hit for Heavy weapons or whatnot.
bobafett012 wrote:
DW strat called Deathwing Assault for, i thought he said 2 or 3 CP, but i don't know exactly what it does. He said DW terms get to fire after DS. they already can do that, so maybe just a free round of shooting? I don't know how many units it affects, hopefully if it costs 3, all of them that DS....
I'm under the impression that they get to shoot when they Deep Strike and then shoot normally.
That's what I assumed but does it work for ALL DSDW units, just 1, why the 2 or 3 CPs, or did he just not know.
Pure speculation on my part, but it might be that it allows for you to DS a Deathwing unit out of sequence.
I do think it's funny that they write an article touting large DW squads because of the Grim Resolve CT, and yet, all the DW have inner circle, and there for are immune to morale, just as they were in the codex.....
Quite likely it's future-proofing in case, say, they add a Psychic Power that allows for stripping away the "Autopass" part of that...it's also possible that Inner Circle auto-pass when fighting Chaos or something of that nature.
He also said what sounded like DW had some special abilities after they DS. I wish he'd have went into details. Hopefully something other than a re-roll to hit, we got enough of those from everywhere else. +1 AP or re-roll wounds of 1, or something like that would be cool.
Most likely it's the ability to shoot twice or not have -1 to Hit for Heavy weapons or whatnot.
Why would it be shoot twice though when there is a strategem that does that? we'll see, the you tube reviews should be out tonight, hopefully like they were for the BA and we'll have to whole picture.
me too, that was one of my biggest disappointments. They are so iconic to the Dark angels and we even have the Ancients that carry banners, they couldn't have added them back in similar to how they added some banners into BA to use on top of their very good banners?
Spoletta wrote: Jinx is NOT the old one. It's 4++ and works in melee.
True, i was just writing down what he said. He said it was the same as index but he said it was 4++ and worked in CC with that strategem for RW.
So Jink is 5++ vs shooting if advance, but with a stratagem it becomes 4++ and works in meele too? Hmmm. If that stratagem is 1CP isn't bad.
I'm watching the WarhammerTV video and when he was talking about that one of the chat moderators said Jink only works against shooting. "he got excited"
It would be nice to have an option for Ravenwing Lieutenant without paying for the heavy weapons. But if you want that, you can get close with a Lieutenant with a Jump Pack.
Ok, just to confirm (couldn't watch the video): Jink triggers if you Advance, giving the unit 4++ vs shooting. IF you use a new strategem, it them becomes useable in melee for that turn as well? Or does it already give 4++ in melee now?
Vector Strike wrote: Ok, just to confirm (couldn't watch the video): Jink triggers if you Advance, giving the unit 4++ vs shooting. IF you use a new strategem, it them becomes useable in melee for that turn as well? Or does it already give 4++ in melee now?
The WarhammerTV guy got it wrong so everyone's confused. Sounds like Jink never works in Melee. The strategem lets a Ravenwing unit advance and charge and shoot normally.
Vector Strike wrote: Ok, just to confirm (couldn't watch the video): Jink triggers if you Advance, giving the unit 4++ vs shooting. IF you use a new strategem, it them becomes useable in melee for that turn as well? Or does it already give 4++ in melee now?
The WarhammerTV guy got it wrong so everyone's confused. Sounds like Jink never works in Melee. The strategem lets a Ravenwing unit advance and charge and shoot normally.
Wait... so we finally get standard bearers back as actual characters and they don't use it as a chance to bring back Brother Bethor? I... What?
Yeah, with the way they were re-splitting the command squad up in to characters again, I was guessing some kind of Bearer of the Sacred Standard was kind of a shoe-in for inclusion at this point. Oh well, some of the other stuff is actually sounding pretty good for once. I don't want to get my hopes up since the DA have seldom been good in the last eight or so additions, but this Codex has a lot of merit to it (if nothing else, it finally found a way of making normal battle company stuff look worthwhile for once).
A lot, however, will come down to precise pricing of units. If the Deathwing and Ravenwing get bogged down with special abilities and are made to overpay for it (no matter how niche some of it can be) then we're kind of back to where we were before where DA get lumped with the "elite" status and a price-tag that means they just can't field enough bodies to be relevant. Though at least this time, a greenwing gunline at least seems viable and should come at a good price. But I do hope that the RW and DW get some love this go around instead of just being more expensive and worse versions of what vanilla can otherwise field.
Aeri wrote: They said Ravenwing got the biggest points drop in the codex, but some other stuff got cheaper aswell.
That's heartening at least. Getting the prices right on DW and RW have usually been the main sticking point in each new codex, and normally they're over-cautious about it. RW coming down across the board is (probably) good (assuming they don't go too far and make them too good of course).
Alternatively, if they can make the DW better at managing against hordes (which a double-fire stratagem off the drop could certainly help with), then that could make up for the lack of bodies as well. But it is hard to extricate 40k from the "boyz before toyz" paradigm (and going to far in the other direction just gives us hero/deathstar-hammer).
I guess I'll just have to wait and see while being cautiously pessimistic the whole time (a fine DA tradition! ).
Inner circle...Benefit vs fallen? What a total waste of a special rule. The units that have inner circle I imagine will be 5 man units anyway so woo auto pass morale!
Maelstrom808 wrote: I haven't really looked, but have the other codexes that have come out been using recycled cover art?
I think all of them have used recycled cover art. I know the CSM codex has the same cover as the 6th edition codex (which is fine because that art is awesome) and the AdMech codex uses the Codex: Skitarii artwork.
I was hoping Deathwing Assault would be, you know, related to assaulting. I had visions of 10-man Knight units storming with ease into opponents' lines, but alas, I'll have to settle for a ridiculous torrent of stormbolter and assault cannon fire. Sounds like a good way to clear screening units away, though, right?
Maelstrom808 wrote: I haven't really looked, but have the other codexes that have come out been using recycled cover art?
I think all of them have used recycled cover art. I know the CSM codex has the same cover as the 6th edition codex (which is fine because that art is awesome) and the AdMech codex uses the Codex: Skitarii artwork.
Yeah, it's a great cover so no complaints from me. I was just curious.
Sammeal and black knights use Strategem to assault after advance, drop Deathwing knights within 6" of Sammael. Both reroll charge distances due to Sammy trait.
Did i hear correctly that Dark Talons came down in points almost 30 points? sounded like 140 down from 180, then pay for 2 hurricane bolters at 10 a piece, rest is all free, so that makes is 160. Used to be 188. not a bad discount if correct.
We've been robbed!
Quick, someone call the cops. The Blood Angels have been seen with a standard that looks suspiciously like the rules the Standard of Fortitude should have had!
The Deathwing Assault strategem is 2CP for 5 models or 3CP for more, used whenever a Deathwing unit teleports. It immediately shoots during the movement phase, and explicitly may fire again later in the turn.
Deathwing shooting isn't very scary, BUT the attack happens immediately. It sounds like a Deathwing squad can shoot at screening units, pick up models, and then the Deathwing Knights can teleport into the new gap! I know it won't often work that way in a competitive setting but it's a neat option.
really disappointed there's no relic banner.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The StrikingScorpion82 review first said Black Knights are 46 points but then a minute later he said 47.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Guardsmen are probably the most common screen unit, so what are the odds of a Deathwing unit clearing them out to allow Knights a closer teleport?
A 10 man Deathwing unit with Belial's re-roll removes 12.6 guardsmen with storm bolters and around 5-6 more with 2 assault cannons. This assumes they're not in cover.
Maybe that has a place in a 2000 point 100% Deathwing army but probably not outside of that.
axisofentropy wrote: The Deathwing Assault strategem is 2CP for 5 models or 3CP for more, used whenever a Deathwing unit teleports. It immediately shoots during the movement phase, and explicitly may fire again later in the turn.
Deathwing shooting isn't very scary, BUT the attack happens immediately. It sounds like a Deathwing squad can shoot at screening units, pick up models, and then the Deathwing Knights can teleport into the new gap! I know it won't often work that way in a competitive setting but it's a neat option.
really disappointed there's no relic banner.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The StrikingScorpion82 review first said Black Knights are 46 points but then a minute later he said 47.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Guardsmen are probably the most common screen unit, so what are the odds of a Deathwing unit clearing them out to allow Knights a closer teleport?
A 10 man Deathwing unit with Belial's re-roll removes 12.6 guardsmen with storm bolters and around 5-6 more with 2 assault cannons. This assumes they're not in cover.
Maybe that has a place in a 2000 point 100% Deathwing army but probably not outside of that.
Need to read the timing on that. You could be able to shoot dark reapers before they get forewarned.
Need to read the timing on that. You could be able to shoot dark reapers before they get forewarned.
Good point! The Dark Angels strategem specifically says "immediately". Forewarned also says "immediately", but because this happens during the Dark Angel player's turn, they get to decide which happens first?
JohnnyHell wrote: "His wounds long healed, he awaits a time when GW need to annualise a previous Primarch sales spike to appease the Shareholders..."
haha truth.
Probably March-April. Gulliman was in March and Morty was the second half of the year. I imagine that a similar release schedule they keep for characters of such import to the background like that.
And we have still yet to see the initial offerings of fuzzy pictures with them in the background. That seems to usually start the 3-4 month countdown to release.
axisofentropy wrote: The Deathwing Assault strategem is 2CP for 5 models or 3CP for more, used whenever a Deathwing unit teleports. It immediately shoots during the movement phase, and explicitly may fire again later in the turn.
Deathwing shooting isn't very scary, BUT the attack happens immediately. It sounds like a Deathwing squad can shoot at screening units, pick up models, and then the Deathwing Knights can teleport into the new gap! I know it won't often work that way in a competitive setting but it's a neat option.
really disappointed there's no relic banner.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The StrikingScorpion82 review first said Black Knights are 46 points but then a minute later he said 47.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Guardsmen are probably the most common screen unit, so what are the odds of a Deathwing unit clearing them out to allow Knights a closer teleport?
A 10 man Deathwing unit with Belial's re-roll removes 12.6 guardsmen with storm bolters and around 5-6 more with 2 assault cannons. This assumes they're not in cover.
Maybe that has a place in a 2000 point 100% Deathwing army but probably not outside of that.
So over 500 pts of models to remove 50 pts? I'm at a loss why Terminators haven't received a major overhaul in a decade.
My math says 14 guards down with stormbolters and 5,5 with assault cannons. I.E. 2 full squads. 100 points with the standard loadout (plasma gun and plasma pistol), 1/5 of the cost of the models involved, which for that kind of unit is a good return.
The screen is definitely punched now and you deep strike the next squad further. This doesn't work against conscripts though, being 30 man strong gives great flexibility in removing casualties, so clearing those screens is much harder. Really, for all the whine about conscripts being useless at the cost of regular guards, there are things where you really want them over guards.
So over 500 pts of models to remove 50 pts? I'm at a loss why Terminators haven't received a major overhaul in a decade.
It's not necessarily about the cost of the models removed, it's the space they occupy. If you blast away a unit of 20 Guardsmen and gain access to a Baneblade or something else juicy, that's 100% worthwhile. Not to mention you still have that unit of 10 terminators which will obviously take some casualties but will then get act as normal next turn, likely with hit rerolls if you play Deathwing like I do where every unit is near either Belial or Azrael. Don't forget that you also get to shoot again as normal in the shooting phase, so if you're not necessarily trying to clear the way for another unit to drop-charge, you're still in great position to push heavy damage. That is, maybe you're torrenting down some giant chaff unit or light vehicles that may become a problem later or simply asserting yourself on a flank.
To your point, I think Terminators are in the middle of the overhaul they've needed for so long. At 40pts/model Deathwing Terminators are maybe a touch expensive, but they're in the realm of appropriately costed. They could probably stand being 2-4pts cheaper before they're actually good. With the frequent game-wide balance adjustments that have been released over the past few months, I think GW will catch on pretty quickly.
Spoletta wrote: My math says 14 guards down with stormbolters and 5,5 with assault cannons. I.E. 2 full squads. 100 points with the standard loadout (plasma gun and plasma pistol), 1/5 of the cost of the models involved, which for that kind of unit is a good return.
The screen is definitely punched now and you deep strike the next squad further. This doesn't work against conscripts though, being 30 man strong gives great flexibility in removing casualties, so clearing those screens is much harder. Really, for all the whine about conscripts being useless at the cost of regular guards, there are things where you really want them over guards.
...lol? Show me on the Commissar where the Conscripts touched you.
I'm just kidding, nobody sees Commissars anymore.
That "30 man strong" bit doesn't mean diddly when removing casualties, since if you're killing 14 GEQ with Storm Bolters and another 5.5 with Assault Cannons? That's 19.5 models; rounding up to 20. Conscripts are LD4. In order to keep the remaining models alive, you're blowing a Stratagem to keep them in...because Commissars just make you reroll failed Morale tests now.
Spoletta wrote: My math says 14 guards down with stormbolters and 5,5 with assault cannons. I.E. 2 full squads. 100 points with the standard loadout (plasma gun and plasma pistol), 1/5 of the cost of the models involved, which for that kind of unit is a good return.
The screen is definitely punched now and you deep strike the next squad further. This doesn't work against conscripts though, being 30 man strong gives great flexibility in removing casualties, so clearing those screens is much harder. Really, for all the whine about conscripts being useless at the cost of regular guards, there are things where you really want them over guards.
...lol? Show me on the Commissar where the Conscripts touched you.
I'm just kidding, nobody sees Commissars anymore.
... Reread my post a good number of times, yet i fail to find where i talked about commissars... You sure you posted on the right thread?
Morale phase comes after the assault phase, who cares about commissars.
Spoletta wrote: My math says 14 guards down with stormbolters and 5,5 with assault cannons. I.E. 2 full squads. 100 points with the standard loadout (plasma gun and plasma pistol), 1/5 of the cost of the models involved, which for that kind of unit is a good return.
The screen is definitely punched now and you deep strike the next squad further. This doesn't work against conscripts though, being 30 man strong gives great flexibility in removing casualties, so clearing those screens is much harder. Really, for all the whine about conscripts being useless at the cost of regular guards, there are things where you really want them over guards.
...lol?
Show me on the Commissar where the Conscripts touched you.
I'm just kidding, nobody sees Commissars anymore.
... Reread my post a good number of times, yet i fail to find where i talked about commissars... You sure you posted on the right thread?
Morale phase comes after the assault phase, who cares about commissars.
He's pointing out that clearing a screen of conscripts with those numbers is easy, not 'much harder.' Kill 19 of 30, and the rest die to morale.
I'm pretty disappointed with codex hellblaster spam. Its been what, since Codex Dark Angels 2.0 that the DA were cool? I can't believe I've contiued to play an army that has been working on almost 2 decades of letting me down.
Spoletta wrote: My math says 14 guards down with stormbolters and 5,5 with assault cannons. I.E. 2 full squads. 100 points with the standard loadout (plasma gun and plasma pistol), 1/5 of the cost of the models involved, which for that kind of unit is a good return.
The screen is definitely punched now and you deep strike the next squad further. This doesn't work against conscripts though, being 30 man strong gives great flexibility in removing casualties, so clearing those screens is much harder. Really, for all the whine about conscripts being useless at the cost of regular guards, there are things where you really want them over guards.
...lol?
Show me on the Commissar where the Conscripts touched you.
I'm just kidding, nobody sees Commissars anymore.
... Reread my post a good number of times, yet i fail to find where i talked about commissars... You sure you posted on the right thread?
Absolutely sure I posted in the right thread. You came in talking about "for all the whine about conscripts being useless at the cost of regular guards, there are things where you really want them over guards".
You wanted them over Guards when Commissars weren't hot garbage. Because of whiners like you, Commissars are trash and Conscripts are overpriced trash.
If you couldn't figure out the snark from the post, that's on you--but don't pretend you do not know why people are complaining about Conscripts being priced the same as Guardsmen. It's disingenuous especially as I know you have had multiple people attempt to explain it to you in the various threads surrounding the AMFAQ and the CA changes.
Morale phase comes after the assault phase, who cares about commissars.
I'm going to hazard a guess and say the people who see trash like Iyanden, Tyranids, and now Dark Angels getting the exact same ability that Commissars had pre-nerf and feel slighted by the fact that now Conscripts are overpriced trash and Commissars are left garbage-tier?
Spoletta wrote: My math says 14 guards down with stormbolters and 5,5 with assault cannons. I.E. 2 full squads. 100 points with the standard loadout (plasma gun and plasma pistol), 1/5 of the cost of the models involved, which for that kind of unit is a good return.
The screen is definitely punched now and you deep strike the next squad further. This doesn't work against conscripts though, being 30 man strong gives great flexibility in removing casualties, so clearing those screens is much harder. Really, for all the whine about conscripts being useless at the cost of regular guards, there are things where you really want them over guards.
...lol?
Show me on the Commissar where the Conscripts touched you.
I'm just kidding, nobody sees Commissars anymore.
... Reread my post a good number of times, yet i fail to find where i talked about commissars... You sure you posted on the right thread?
Absolutely sure I posted in the right thread. You came in talking about "for all the whine about conscripts being useless at the cost of regular guards, there are things where you really want them over guards".
You wanted them over Guards when Commissars weren't hot garbage. Because of whiners like you, Commissars are trash and Conscripts are overpriced trash.
If you couldn't figure out the snark from the post, that's on you--but don't pretend you do not know why people are complaining about Conscripts being priced the same as Guardsmen. It's disingenuous especially as I know you have had multiple people attempt to explain it to you in the various threads surrounding the AMFAQ and the CA changes.
Morale phase comes after the assault phase, who cares about commissars.
I'm going to hazard a guess and say the people who see trash like Iyanden, Tyranids, and now Dark Angels getting the exact same ability that Commissars had pre-nerf and feel slighted by the fact that now Conscripts are overpriced trash and Commissars are left garbage-tier?
Ok man, take a good long breath lol. Talk about over reactions...
BrotherGecko wrote: I'm pretty disappointed with codex hellblaster spam. Its been what, since Codex Dark Angels 2.0 that the DA were cool? I can't believe I've contiued to play an army that has been working on almost 2 decades of letting me down.
I'm honestly not even sure Hellblasters are the best use of the plasma strat. Plasma devs are pretty strong in that regard. Why the hate? I haven't seen the whole codex yet, but it looks like we have a whole bunch of viable (read: competitive) units to play with and interesting things to do with them. I'm optimistic!
BrotherGecko wrote: I'm pretty disappointed with codex hellblaster spam. Its been what, since Codex Dark Angels 2.0 that the DA were cool? I can't believe I've contiued to play an army that has been working on almost 2 decades of letting me down.
I'm honestly not even sure Hellblasters are the best use of the plasma strat. Plasma devs are pretty strong in that regard. Why the hate? I haven't seen the whole codex yet, but it looks like we have a whole bunch of viable (read: competitive) units to play with and interesting things to do with them. I'm optimistic!
There is a youtube video that will give you the whole codex.
Ok man, take a good long breath lol. Talk about over reactions...
I'm pretty calm. Don't make disingenuous comments denigrating other armies when you know you're wrong and we'll be just fine.
Get a clue man.
We were talking about one situation where conscripts actually fare better than guards and you dropped down on me like [MOD EDIT - Language! - Alpharius] on heresy! Chill down, no one is attacking you or your army! If you want join the discussion in a civil manner.
How sad it was that there's no Thunderfire Cannons in 'dex, or Centurions. Otherwise I'm waiting for the codex to come, Ravenwing seems absolute beast now
Ok man, take a good long breath lol. Talk about over reactions...
I'm pretty calm. Don't make disingenuous comments denigrating other armies when you know you're wrong and we'll be just fine.
Get a clue man.
We were talking about one situation where conscripts actually fare better than guards and you dropped down on me like [MOD EDIT - Language! - Alpharius] on heresy! Chill down, no one is attacking you or your army! If you want join the discussion in a civil manner.
Thanks.
I "dropped down on you" because the Conscript unit in that situation is going to evaporate. There's no "screening" or whatever nonsense you want to pretend exists.
And quite frankly, the only person not being civil is yourself.
Kanluwen wrote: /quote]
I "dropped down on you" because the Conscript unit in that situation is going to evaporate. There's no "screening" or whatever nonsense you want to pretend exists.
And quite frankly, the only person not being civil is yourself.
I'll let the world be the judge of who is being rude here, not interested in this off topic.
So, you want to say that conscripts won't be good in that situtation. That's fine, but you should present some arguments for that.
My argument, is that since morale phase comes after assault phase, then conscripts are better shielda in this situation due to having an higher freedom in casualties removal. They will not make it to the next round, but who cares.
Now, if you think you have something to say on this, please do. No actually don't, we don't want to turn this thread into another thread about conscripts, if you want i'll open a topic about it.
BrotherGecko wrote: I'm pretty disappointed with codex hellblaster spam. Its been what, since Codex Dark Angels 2.0 that the DA were cool? I can't believe I've contiued to play an army that has been working on almost 2 decades of letting me down.
I'm honestly not even sure Hellblasters are the best use of the plasma strat. Plasma devs are pretty strong in that regard. Why the hate? I haven't seen the whole codex yet, but it looks like we have a whole bunch of viable (read: competitive) units to play with and interesting things to do with them. I'm optimistic!
The Hate is because this codex is a low tier codex. Watch this you tube video, he's goes over everything nicely. Has to shake his head half the time about how terrible some of the stuff in this book is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtHn4VQIs9M
For me personally, I am disappointed because Deathwing are totally unchanged except access to 2 strategems, which i'll admit i personally like, but I would have liked to see a special rule for regular terms and Knights of some sort back like they both had in 6th edition codex (never played 7th).
The other problem is the relics, the warlord traits, and psychic powers are all pretty bad. There is about 1 or 2 in each category that are good or even worth using but the rest are just too situational or just bad. In contrast, for example, the Blood Angels codex is phenomenal. a majority of the relics, strategems, and psychic powers are just amazing. You can really see this when these reviewers are reading over a unit or relic or what have you and all they can say is "meh, it's ok". that means, not good.
I think Greenwing with maybe some Black Knights mixed in for max plasma and maybe our flyers, which are really good, might end up being somewhat competitive but outside of that I fail to see this book excelling against the other great books like IG, Chaos SM, SM, BA, Eldar. Not sure where Tyranids, or GK sit in the scheme of things .
Anyway, I know everyone will say i'm crazy, the book is super powerful but, I just don't feel that way. Hopefully i'll be wrong.
So over 500 pts of models to remove 50 pts? I'm at a loss why Terminators haven't received a major overhaul in a decade.
Couldn't agree more. While we are clearly moving in the right direction with 4 shot storm bolters and 2 wounds, but things like mortal wounds and AP modifiers really hit terms hard. So, they are still a little shy of where they need to be to see play but at least it's worlds apart from where they were. I'm actually sitting at a 75% win record in local game shop play with my Deathwing list that is pure Deathwing other than the 3 RW flyers I run to support them, which blows my mind.
bobafett012 wrote:Anyway, I know everyone will say i'm crazy, the book is super powerful but, I just don't feel that way. Hopefully i'll be wrong.
Sadly, don't think so.
My take on it is this:
BA is a codex that is really good at running Blood Angels as Blood Angels, and supports that with rules and special snowflake stuff (stratagems, relics, etc) that let them be themselves even more.
Basically, GW correctly identified the theme of Blood Angels and gave the chapter a nice hefty toolbox to support it, with ancillary tools to do the other stuff SM chapters do.
---
With Dark Angels, it's Codex Space Marine take 2, with a standard OK but not amazing chapter trait that partially vanishes or overlaps with other rules in a fair number of circumstances.
Effectively Ravenwing and Deathwing operate as separate mini-chapters with their own 'chapter traits,' and have tiny slices of supporting material (strats, relics, etc) to make them vaguely ok.
At a glance it looks like a fairly mediocre mono-build army, that might be better than another type of space marine if you play the way the CT says you should (immobile gunline) or you like one or two DA exclusive units.
By comparison, BA at a glance looks fun, competitive and fluffy.
Initial thoughts are that greenwing and ravenwing got a nice boost, but deathwing are really notin a better place than they were before.
Looking forward to seeing how many points my RW force has saved, and what to add to get my 1500 pt list to 2000. Definitely a talonmaster.
BrotherGecko wrote: I'm pretty disappointed with codex hellblaster spam. Its been what, since Codex Dark Angels 2.0 that the DA were cool? I can't believe I've contiued to play an army that has been working on almost 2 decades of letting me down.
I'm honestly not even sure Hellblasters are the best use of the plasma strat. Plasma devs are pretty strong in that regard. Why the hate? I haven't seen the whole codex yet, but it looks like we have a whole bunch of viable (read: competitive) units to play with and interesting things to do with them. I'm optimistic!
The Hate is because this codex is a low tier codex. Watch this you tube video, he's goes over everything nicely. Has to shake his head half the time about how terrible some of the stuff in this book is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtHn4VQIs9M
For me personally, I am disappointed because Deathwing are totally unchanged except access to 2 strategems, which i'll admit i personally like, but I would have liked to see a special rule for regular terms and Knights of some sort back like they both had in 6th edition codex (never played 7th).
The other problem is the relics, the warlord traits, and psychic powers are all pretty bad. There is about 1 or 2 in each category that are good or even worth using but the rest are just too situational or just bad. In contrast, for example, the Blood Angels codex is phenomenal. a majority of the relics, strategems, and psychic powers are just amazing. You can really see this when these reviewers are reading over a unit or relic or what have you and all they can say is "meh, it's ok". that means, not good.
I think Greenwing with maybe some Black Knights mixed in for max plasma and maybe our flyers, which are really good, might end up being somewhat competitive but outside of that I fail to see this book excelling against the other great books like IG, Chaos SM, SM, BA, Eldar. Not sure where Tyranids, or GK sit in the scheme of things .
Anyway, I know everyone will say i'm crazy, the book is super powerful but, I just don't feel that way. Hopefully i'll be wrong.
So over 500 pts of models to remove 50 pts? I'm at a loss why Terminators haven't received a major overhaul in a decade.
Couldn't agree more. While we are clearly moving in the right direction with 4 shot storm bolters and 2 wounds, but things like mortal wounds and AP modifiers really hit terms hard. So, they are still a little shy of where they need to be to see play but at least it's worlds apart from where they were. I'm actually sitting at a 75% win record in local game shop play with my Deathwing list that is pure Deathwing other than the 3 RW flyers I run to support them, which blows my mind.
To be fair... saying that you have a 75% win rate with a full DW army doesn't give a lot of credits to your claims that terminators are in a bad spot
Anyway, yes, i do believe that terminators lacked something before the codex and they still lack it. I don't think that full DW will be a top competitive choice, neither ravenwing will be. This codex is capable of churning out really competitive lists, but only by correctly complementing many different styles of play, not by focusing on one. For each of those there is a codex that does it better, but there isn't one that can do all of those together.
A lot will depend on the tournament rules. This codex gains a lot by selecting the traits and the relics game by game, it has a lot of situational relics and traits.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JohnnyHell wrote: As long as I can still buff my Spartan with Azrael anything else is a bonus.
Sorry to say that you can't, Azrael no longer affects vehicles (apart from the reroll to hit).
bobafett012 wrote:Anyway, I know everyone will say i'm crazy, the book is super powerful but, I just don't feel that way. Hopefully i'll be wrong.
Sadly, don't think so.
My take on it is this:
BA is a codex that is really good at running Blood Angels as Blood Angels, and supports that with rules and special snowflake stuff (stratagems, relics, etc) that let them be themselves even more.
Basically, GW correctly identified the theme of Blood Angels and gave the chapter a nice hefty toolbox to support it, with ancillary tools to do the other stuff SM chapters do.
---
With Dark Angels, it's Codex Space Marine take 2, with a standard OK but not amazing chapter trait that partially vanishes or overlaps with other rules in a fair number of circumstances.
Effectively Ravenwing and Deathwing operate as separate mini-chapters with their own 'chapter traits,' and have tiny slices of supporting material (strats, relics, etc) to make them vaguely ok.
At a glance it looks like a fairly mediocre mono-build army, that might be better than another type of space marine if you play the way the CT says you should (immobile gunline) or you like one or two DA exclusive units.
By comparison, BA at a glance looks fun, competitive and fluffy.
I think the DA haven't had a coherent theme for a while now. Are they just codex space marines with DW and RW being the real focus, are they max shooty marines (even if regular marines have slowly shifted to that theme over the years too), are they just good a killing their own boogey man?
I think the DA have become codex space marines -0.5 where they pay more for a good rule here and there and for a bunch of situational ones that really just keep them par power wise to other vanilla marines.
Dark Angels do have a coherent theme... It's just a background fluff theme that has minimal impact on the table. That they have more secrets, more terminators, more plasma and higher ranking bikers doesn't actually matter, when everyone can take any amount of terminators and plasma. Even pre 8th edition, if, for some reason, you wanted 30 terminators (probably with th & ss) you could just do that. So their social snowflakeness doesn't actually have much impact on the game itself.
BrotherGecko wrote: I'm pretty disappointed with codex hellblaster spam. Its been what, since Codex Dark Angels 2.0 that the DA were cool? I can't believe I've contiued to play an army that has been working on almost 2 decades of letting me down.
I'm honestly not even sure Hellblasters are the best use of the plasma strat. Plasma devs are pretty strong in that regard. Why the hate? I haven't seen the whole codex yet, but it looks like we have a whole bunch of viable (read: competitive) units to play with and interesting things to do with them. I'm optimistic!
The Hate is because this codex is a low tier codex. Watch this you tube video, he's goes over everything nicely. Has to shake his head half the time about how terrible some of the stuff in this book is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtHn4VQIs9M
For me personally, I am disappointed because Deathwing are totally unchanged except access to 2 strategems, which i'll admit i personally like, but I would have liked to see a special rule for regular terms and Knights of some sort back like they both had in 6th edition codex (never played 7th).
The other problem is the relics, the warlord traits, and psychic powers are all pretty bad. There is about 1 or 2 in each category that are good or even worth using but the rest are just too situational or just bad. In contrast, for example, the Blood Angels codex is phenomenal. a majority of the relics, strategems, and psychic powers are just amazing. You can really see this when these reviewers are reading over a unit or relic or what have you and all they can say is "meh, it's ok". that means, not good.
I think Greenwing with maybe some Black Knights mixed in for max plasma and maybe our flyers, which are really good, might end up being somewhat competitive but outside of that I fail to see this book excelling against the other great books like IG, Chaos SM, SM, BA, Eldar. Not sure where Tyranids, or GK sit in the scheme of things .
Anyway, I know everyone will say i'm crazy, the book is super powerful but, I just don't feel that way. Hopefully i'll be wrong.
So over 500 pts of models to remove 50 pts? I'm at a loss why Terminators haven't received a major overhaul in a decade.
Couldn't agree more. While we are clearly moving in the right direction with 4 shot storm bolters and 2 wounds, but things like mortal wounds and AP modifiers really hit terms hard. So, they are still a little shy of where they need to be to see play but at least it's worlds apart from where they were. I'm actually sitting at a 75% win record in local game shop play with my Deathwing list that is pure Deathwing other than the 3 RW flyers I run to support them, which blows my mind.
The Codex isn't even out, people hasn't had any time to try any kind of list of strategy, we have 0 practical data on the tables and tournaments, and you are claiming that this is a low tier Codex? Oh my god, give me a break.
Mathhammer can do only so much, theres a reason why balance changes are done a month or two before something has come out, to gain data and let the dust to settle so people can work strategies and tactics with what they have at their dispossal.
And I know "Omg people realised conscripts where OP 5 minutes before the Index were leaked". But we are talking here about a wholle codex. Theres no way to know how it will be end in the current competitive meta, or where it will sit when other Codex's come out. And I can even agree that this book at first glance seems inferior to the BA one. But at the same time Dark Angels were stronger than BA pre-codex.
I mean the fluff is coherent and I was commenting on how that no longer translates to the table. Your assessment is solid I agree.
Codex Space Marines took over the DA themes and DA were never given anything to make up for it. Heck, even WS stole away the interest of RW.
Old arguement but I can't see any reason to actually keep DA as a seperate codex from Codex Space Marines. Outside of Knight (of both flavors), the 2 flyers and speeders the army basically plays like over costed codex space marines.
BrotherGecko wrote: I mean the fluff is coherent and I was commenting on how that no longer translates to the table. Your assessment is solid I agree.
Codex Space Marines took over the DA themes and DA were never given anything to make up for it. Heck, even WS stole away the interest of RW.
Old arguement but I can't see any reason to actually keep DA as a seperate codex from Codex Space Marines. Outside of Knight (of both flavors), the 2 flyers and speeders the army basically plays like over costed codex space marines.
Overcosted? I haven't seen the point sheet yet, if it's been leaked I'd enjoy looking through it, but my general take has been it's an overall better codex compared to vanilla SM. In particular comparing it to the white scars it seems clear DA are just a better version of the same concept. You can make a case for DA falling behind ultramarines, because no primarch acting as extreme force multiplier and slightly worse WT, but beyond that DA wins, with unique tailored buffs for different units and multiple unique characters almost all with powerful buffs. Unless the pricing has gone up across the board for DA I'd argue they are far more viable than most generic SM chapters currently are.
The issue with Dark Angels is that no matter what ultimately they are a codex compliant chapter and as such writers keep having to desperately stretch to justify a codex.
Blood Angels also suffer a little from this but at least they have a fluff to rule related cross over in the black rage to use.
Dark Angels have emo/secrets/a hidden love of spikes and that's pretty much it. All the "unique" and terrible stuff has been produced by the torturing of the fluff in the last 2 codexs.
In all honestly DA should have been rolled into the main codex and the real non codex chapter the Black Templars could have had some love.
Mathhammer can do only so much, theres a reason why balance changes are done a month or two before something has come out, to gain data.
Yes, indeed. Enough quantitative data to prove the mathhammer, something GW can't (and won't) generate enough of on its own.
That they're cautious enough to want some proof before changing (most) things, doesn't mean the mathhammer is wrong. Or that it's bad to do it. Or somehow infringing on you if other people discuss it.
It's not even that difficult in this particular case, since marine chapters with minor adjustments have been Indexed, changed, Codexed, changed again and Chapter Approved. So appending a slightly different set of minor rules changes doesn't exactly deviate from the principles repeatedly established over the last six months.
DA are easily my favourite chapter (by far), and it seems with this codex, they aren't (at first glance), super powerful like some other books are. That said, it's not even out yet so making a blanket statement is a little premature.
From looking at/reading some of the new strategems, unit rules and getting a general feel on how the army works, I feel that this army will need to rely a bit more on synergy of playstyles. What I mean by that is if we take all the different wings and use them in support of each other, they will be extremely effective. Although, I also think that if there is a kink in the plan it will be far less forgiving (one might say it's unforgivable!)... and as we know, no plan survives first contact with the enemy.
I think the first turn will be where DA shine, and then taper out a bit. Having the DW drop in and make a gap for the Ravenwing to advance up, unleash an outrageous amount of plasma talon shots, and then charge something could potentially cripple or destroy key units in the opponents army. Adding in the characters for their buffs is also going to be an important part of this strategy (like every other army). All of this being supported by a Greenwing firebase should prove to be effective. Hopefully. Plus after all that stuff is in their backfield causing a ruckus, they still will need to deal with it.
There is of course counters to literally everything, so trying to minimize them is going to be a challenge. One such counter has the enemy doing exactly nothing... and that is those units costs. Having two large units of DW and RW are going to be a sizable chunk of the army, so careful positioning and target selection is going to be paramount in order to maximize their effectiveness in subsequent turns. Thankfully, morale isn't really an issue to them.
In any case, I preordered the book already because I'm also very interested in the updated fluff. Should be really neat to see what's advanced so far.
SeanDrake wrote: The issue with Dark Angels is that no matter what ultimately they are a codex compliant chapter and as such writers keep having to desperately stretch to justify a codex.
Blood Angels also suffer a little from this but at least they have a fluff to rule related cross over in the black rage to use.
Dark Angels have emo/secrets/a hidden love of spikes and that's pretty much it. All the "unique" and terrible stuff has been produced by the torturing of the fluff in the last 2 codexs.
In all honestly DA should have been rolled into the main codex and the real non codex chapter the Black Templars could have had some love.
All makes sense and agreed - but people want their own codex. Given that this is Dark Angels thread I don't think this argument however logcial is going to get any traction.
Was the old Deathwing story still in the last codex - that was the Dark Angels I enjoyed.
SeanDrake wrote: The issue with Dark Angels is that no matter what ultimately they are a codex compliant chapter and as such writers keep having to desperately stretch to justify a codex.
Blood Angels also suffer a little from this but at least they have a fluff to rule related cross over in the black rage to use.
Dark Angels have emo/secrets/a hidden love of spikes and that's pretty much it. All the "unique" and terrible stuff has been produced by the torturing of the fluff in the last 2 codexs.
In all honestly DA should have been rolled into the main codex and the real non codex chapter the Black Templars could have had some love.
Well, aside from the whole Fallen thing, Dark Angels are supposed to be anti Xenos, and expert monster hunters. Monster hunter weaponry just happens to do well against Daemon Princes and Primarchs as well.... but thematically one could make a Monster Hunter list against Nids. I do enjoy the plasma themed Strategems. Sit and shoot rerolls, with +1 damage.
SeanDrake wrote: Dark Angels have emo/secrets/a hidden love of spikes and that's pretty much it. All the "unique" and terrible stuff has been produced by the torturing of the fluff in the last 2 codexs.
In all honestly DA should have been rolled into the main codex and the real non codex chapter the Black Templars could have had some love.
Ah yes, the truly unique non codex chapter black templars, known for their stand out traits of really hating heretics and psykers plus having a knightly theme. Oh what a unique standout they are in this setting where arguing who hates heretics more and who is more pure is a never ending dick measuring contest, one that hilariously the SoB always end up winning. It's not like we already have a chapter of angry marines and a chapter of super pure holier than thou marines both with their own codice. Oh and it looks like world eaters will eventually get a codex so angry marines who hate psykers will be well represented. Not to mention SoB.
Honestly, at least the lore around having access to forbidden and rare old technology results in a few interesting units and bits of wargear, and the internal divisions allows GW to create a chapter that isn't pigeonholed into a singular archetype mechanically.
Well, I'll ask again if anyone has leaked point changes for the codex, or if GW have finally managed to successfully threaten the people they gave previews. Because I think we are at the stage where that's what we need to see if we want to have a good idea what the codex will bring.
Well, aside from the whole Fallen thing, Dark Angels are supposed to be anti Xenos, and expert monster hunters..
All marines are anti-xenos. Nothing stands out as 'monster hunter,' any more than it does vehicle hunter, or Nob/Primaris hunter.
Background-wise, Dark Angels don't come to Caliban until after all the Monsters are supposedly gone, so the Legion/Chapter is never in that role.
Actually, much of the pre-Legion knights of Caliban that were fighting monsters were genetically enhanced and accepted into the Chapter as members that then trained the early Dark Angels.
Quick question, did any other Legion or chapter ever accept non marines in as members?
The Alpha Legion.
Or maybe they were just pretending because they needed cannon fodder… but that could have been a cover too, to get the “sole survivor” into a position to infiltrate and influence the real target...
cuda1179 wrote: Actually, much of the pre-Legion knights of Caliban that were fighting monsters were genetically enhanced and accepted into the Chapter as members that then trained the early Dark Angels.
Quick question, did any other Legion or chapter ever accept non marines in as members?
Theres many Non-Marines working with the Chapter and considered part of the chapter. Servs for example, in some chapters they are considered brothers that have failed to become space marines, in others they are little more than slaves, etc...
Speaking as an outsider looking in, the Dark Angels codex does seem fairly underwhelming; especially compared to the Blood Angels one which made me think "wow, that's so cool!" basically every other page, nothing in the Dark Angels toolbox excites me and makes me want to put together a Dark Angels army. Maybe people more familiar with the army see things that I don't, but while I think it's possible for the Dark Angels plasma spam to be effective I don't think it's terribly interesting.
Arachnofiend wrote: Speaking as an outsider looking in, the Dark Angels codex does seem fairly underwhelming; especially compared to the Blood Angels one which made me think "wow, that's so cool!" basically every other page, nothing in the Dark Angels toolbox excites me and makes me want to put together a Dark Angels army. Maybe people more familiar with the army see things that I don't, but while I think it's possible for the Dark Angels plasma spam to be effective I don't think it's terribly interesting.
Doesn't look great to me. Rerolling 1s flat would be relatively balanced compared to certain [faction] tactics in recent times. Having it only when you stand still is quite limiting.
Okay on overwatch you go from 1/6 to slightly under 1/5. Its not setting the world on fire even with stacked plasma.
I guess the reduced morale losses encourages bigger squads - which potentially makes stratagems more efficient - but I am not sure its a massive increase in effectiveness.
I think the thing I don't like about Dark Angels is the increasingly... artificial and forced split into Death/Raven/Green Wing. It makes them look disjointed. I mean fair enough for those who want all terminators, all bikers etc, but meh... not a fan.
I think the contrary, this Codex is forcing us to play with a mix of the three Wings to make the most of our bucks.
Obviously I can be totally wrong and this Codex can end like Codex: GMDK , but I think theres room for tactical depth in this codex.
And I believe, the bigger reason why this Codex isn't as "Wow, cool!" as the BA one are two reasons:
-Lets be honest, it appears to be less powerfull and "different" at first sight.
And thats comes down to the second reason:
-Dark Angels as others have said (Even if I disagree with being rolled back to C:SM), aren't like Blood Angels, with a very strong theme that can translate in a obvious gameplay feeling. Dark Angels aren't as monodimensional as BA. That means they are more similar with Normal space marines because, it translated in them feelling more "boring" and less special. They do White Scars better than White Scars, they have elite Terminators, and they have their normal marines. So they feel to similar to normal space marines because they are at the end of the day, if played as DA and not RW or DW, to use most of their roster to support each other, instead of BA where literally all their special units are based on meele assault in one way or the other, or to support assault.
Is a little like Space Wolves. Yeah they have all their wolfy wolf stuff, but they are expected to play with a mix of meele and shooting even if they are more meele centric, etc... and that can end being pretty similar to normal space marines, if you don't go all aboard with the stronger themed parts of the army. But this really happens with every sub-faction that is tactically flexible instead of mono-build and centered around something to an extreme.
DA had loads of things that made them interesting
-Bike theme
-Terminator theme
-Knightly theme
-Only chapter with heavy bolters and assault cannon on speeders
-Only chapter with squadrons of tornados
-Only chapter with +2 Str Power weapons (Relic Blades)
-Extensive command structure thats very complex
-Legion never really split
-Mortis Dreadnoughts
-Tactical/Strategic Genius
-Better than normal space marines all the other chapters look up to
-Anti -Xenos
-Anti Imperial allies
-(Librarians) Can see the future
There are dozens more themes, wargear, troops, options etc... but they were all taken for vanilla or other chapters, making DA LOOK less special.
In fact the only DA theme remaining is "Having unique chapter stuff made available to everyone" with the most recent being Mortis dreads and company veterans...
To be honest of that list I thing only the "Knightly theme", the "Terminator Theme", the "Extensive Command Structure thats very complex", and "Anti Imperial Allies" are the only true proper DA things.
I'm sorry but random things like some units having special weapon options like blood angels tactical squads having heavy flamers isn't anything I'll say add any kind of theme or substance to a subfaction. You can't say DA are special for being anti-xenos when you have Deathwatch. Heck, you can't say Exorcist are special for being anti-daemon (Those guys that are actually possesed and exorcessed to battle demons) are special for being anti-demon when you have Grey Knights.
And I'm saying this as a Dark Angel player that loves them. I'm not saying they aren't special, or that they don't have their own themes and reasons. I'm saying they are more a revision of the Space Marine style with their own twist (Like Death Guard), than a monobuild subfaction like can be Black Templars or Blood Angels. (Like World Eaters or Thousand Sons). Thats why I play them, because they offer me variety withing the own subfaction and compared with the bigger "father" faction, without forcing me to just play one way or another.
Following the Chaos Marines example, Death Guard are a twist to the Chaos Space Marines. They are this slower, more durable force, with an emphasis on short and mid range shooting. But they can work in a big variety of ways. Plague Marines are probably the most customizable unit of all of the game. In the other hand you have World Eaters, that are Meele Chaos Marines ++, and Thousand Sons, psychic Chaos Marines++. Not saying those two are inferior (Like black templars or blood angels), but they are different at a fundamental level.
bullyboy wrote: Striking Scorpion review of codex indicated RW bikes are 35pts.....that's 3pts more than index, not cheaper as earlier reported.
That is what he said, because I even wrote it in the index, but I think he just read off a different unit on accident because I've heard multiple times RW bikes are 7 points cheaper. 25 points I believe, which if not mistaken, puts them in line with space Marines.
The one thing to note about this is Hurricane bolters went up two and a half times in points and the dark talon has 2 of them, so in the end it ends up only 28 points cheaper, but still, that's 28 points which is pretty significant.
cuda1179 wrote: Actually, much of the pre-Legion knights of Caliban that were fighting monsters were genetically enhanced and accepted into the Chapter as members that then trained the early Dark Angels.
Quick question, did any other Legion or chapter ever accept non marines in as members?
I'm pretty sure Maloghurst, Horus' Equery was a non-Geneseeded Legionaire as well.
I'm sure many did, and like the DA they were kept on the recruiting worlds, in charge of training the new Marines and the like. It was only a very few who'd go out onto the Crusades, like those listed.
I for one look forward to the book. I've been playing da since 2nd edition. As long as it's fluffy and has unique combos/rules, and a mono playable deathwing and ravenwing (even if not super competative) I'm happy. If it's as bland as the 4th/5th edition Jervis Johnson abomination codex, well then we are doomed.
So far it looks interesting. In reality 8th editions uniqueness and flavor of each army has to do with character rule bubbles. I'm sure each of our characters will have some cool and unique rules.
The extra shooting buff sitting still, falling back, plasma, etc is great too. Seems pretty unique to me considering the entire combo of them all. Marines are generally always more shooty, and anything that helps that is awesome!
As I already have 6000 points of DA, I'm hesitant to buy much more, but I'm tempted. Standing gun line is solid, but having massed Land speeders zooming around with Character support speeders just seems so fun.
Thinking about it, 15 speeders, 2 Lt. Speeders, and support would be reaaly mobile and hard hitting.
cuda1179 wrote: As I already have 6000 points of DA, I'm hesitant to buy much more, but I'm tempted. Standing gun line is solid, but having massed Land speeders zooming around with Character support speeders just seems so fun.
Thinking about it, 15 speeders, 2 Lt. Speeders, and support would be reaaly mobile and hard hitting.
Don't forget to bring one or more whirlwinds! There is nothing more fun than auto hitting with HK missiles an hemlock with stacked -3 to hit!
I think part of the problem why Blood Angels seem so awesome and coherent compared to Dark Angels is that the Blood Angels have mostly just 1 element of aggressive close combat fighting. Death Company and Sanguinary Guard both have same highly aggressive CC combat orientation, and both can be jump pack troops which is a strong theme in Blood Angels that can be woven into regular Assault Marines easily etc.
Dark Angels I feel it is abit harder to weave together the 3 Wings that they have as they're all rather different, and one is just outright in a bad place because Terminators haven't been the best of places for awhile as it is anyway.
GenRifDrake wrote: I think part of the problem why Blood Angels seem so awesome and coherent compared to Dark Angels is that the Blood Angels have mostly just 1 element of aggressive close combat fighting. Death Company and Sanguinary Guard both have same highly aggressive CC combat orientation, and both can be jump pack troops which is a strong theme in Blood Angels that can be woven into regular Assault Marines easily etc.
Dark Angels I feel it is abit harder to weave together the 3 Wings that they have as they're all rather different, and one is just outright in a bad place because Terminators haven't been the best of places for awhile as it is anyway.
Except it doesn't. The vast majority of Blood Angels builds got shafted hard. People with old-school mechanized Blood Angels of fast Vindicators and such. Dread-heavy lists. Or even more "balanced" BA list along the normal Space Marine armies with a few Devastators, etc.. gain basically nothing. All the new Primaris stuff is actually on purpose walled off from the best BA stuff (in ways it is not for DA).
DA seems to do a much better job of covering the entire book than the BA stratagems and rules, which, as you say, basically boil down to 2-3 unit entries in the BA book, pigeonholing Blood Angels and promoting bland spam like their is no tomorrow. Even Grey Knights seems more diverse than Blood Angels at this point.
Pretty much this. The in the Podcast that FLG put up today they mentioned the updated fluff and basically said it heavily hinted at his coming back. Though, he is not in the book.
What hints are you talking about? I've seen the section detailing Luther as well as the Lion hidden within the Rock, but that section makes absoutely no hints at him actually returning. I've seen a lot of people see the part about him being "fully healed and ready to return" and assuming that is new lore specifically hinting at him actually coming back at some stage, when it definitely is not; that sentance is near identical to what was included in the 6th edition Codex. The 6th Edition codex always says that he is hidden in the Rock, Fully healed and ready to return when he's needed. It's no more a hint about anything than it was back then, because it's the same thing - lore for him has not changed at all. The new codex says the same thing about him as the last one did.
GoatboyBeta wrote: Luthor escaping is the new bit. I wouldn't be surprised if we see him on the tabletop (just)before the Lion.
That isn't new. That happened during all the wolfing about with the thousand sons, last year (or the year before?)
If this is not new, then it's the first I have herd/read of it. None of this was mentioned that I recall when that book was released. Not everyone fallows everything GW puts out and know exactly everything that is going on.
So I believe it would be fair to say, yes it's new enough. While not brand spanking new, I consider it new for a lot of people who don't follow GW at every instance.
As far as loyalist marine books go? Yeah either the Wolves or the Deathwatch. After that who knows. Its probably a safe bet that the Primaris range will be extended. But that could be via campaign books, a stand alone codex, or another version of the already massive SM Codex.
GoatboyBeta wrote: Luthor escaping is the new bit. I wouldn't be surprised if we see him on the tabletop (just)before the Lion.
That isn't new. That happened during all the wolfing about with the thousand sons, last year (or the year before?)
To be honest the Changeling tried to reach Luther cell but he was stopped before by the watchers in the dark then defeated by Azrael and flew away without gettin Luther free
So the escape of Luther happened after the Wrath of Magnus events
Arachnofiend wrote: Speaking as an outsider looking in, the Dark Angels codex does seem fairly underwhelming; especially compared to the Blood Angels one which made me think "wow, that's so cool!" basically every other page, nothing in the Dark Angels toolbox excites me and makes me want to put together a Dark Angels army. Maybe people more familiar with the army see things that I don't, but while I think it's possible for the Dark Angels plasma spam to be effective I don't think it's terribly interesting.
Which is interesting, so far I've had the exact opposite reaction. I haven't seen anything in the BA codex that wowed me. Possibly this is due to coming from a csm army which still seems to have better assault tools overall, unless I missed something major. Only the CT was particularly impressive to me.
On the other hand, I've also seen how often a big unit maximizing stratagem efficiency can be amazing, and being able to mitigate one of the major downsides of it for free is useful. I also see they are getting more force multipliers, some that also put out solid damage, something I've found very useful so far. And even better access to invulnerable saves in this plasma heavy edition. Plus lots of the aforementioned plasma and ways to improve it.
Dunno, generally DA just looks like it has a great well rounded tool box to me, BA looked overly focused on one area that many other more versatile armies can still match/beat them in. But I could easily end up being wrong, I haven't seen the point sheet of either yet for one.
Judging the battle report I watched the other day, the eye of the unseen on a Ravenwing champion was a character assassin when combined with Sammael.
I think there are some things that don’t look amazing but on the right model surrounded by the right model surrounded by the right models they are very powerful. This will be a synergy codex.
I haven't seen anything in the BA codex that wowed me. Possibly this is due to coming from a csm army which still seems to have better assault tools overall, unless I missed something major. Only the CT was particularly impressive to me.
Not to derail the thread but!!!! Are you joking? Lemartes, Decent of angels, upon wings of fire, wings of sanguinius, The Angels' wing, Hammer of baal, standard of sacrifice, red rampage, the quickening, unleash rage, Death Visions of sanguinius, Forlorn fury, the red thirst, Sanguinary guard down 9 points a model, libby dreads down 20 points.....like what codex are you reading that it doesn't have better assault tools than chaos. In my personal opinion, I'd go so far as to say it will be one of, if not the premiere assault codex in the game right now.
ALl of those things still don't match the chaos stratagems, berserkers, magnus or mortarion. Sure BA can reach the opponent easier but chaos actually kills people with theirs.
Listening every ability in the book doesn't matter much because Chaos has abilities too ya know :p
clearly there is nothing in BA Book like magnus or mortarion, there is only 3 units like them in the game...
As far as the other stuff, I guess i am just confused, and I have no idea what your talking about because if your seriously claiming DC, Sang guard, and VV can't kill things in CC I can't take you seriously. If you'd like to have a serious discussion about the differences and strengths and weaknesses, i suggest we move it over to the BA tactics thread rather than the DA rumors thread.
Just remember before going googoo for new speeders rules, none of them can claim objectives. So as with anything and new releases, moderation and actual playing the rules will help.
Uriels_Flame wrote: Just remember before going googoo for new speeders rules, none of them can claim objectives. So as with anything and new releases, moderation and actual playing the rules will help.
what makes you think that? If your talking about the boots on the ground rule, only battlefield role (unit type) flyers, cant claim objectives, not just all things that can fly.
Regarding the Brilliant Strategist warlord trait, does anyone else read it as any model can use the free reroll? It doesn't specify that the reroll is for the warlord only?
This was very helpful. I think some of those strats, traits, relics, and spells when used with synergy will be extremely powerful. The only problem is generating CP. Thankfully, the WL Trait gives you (theoretically) 33% more CP.
Any more news or screenshots about how they're incorporating primaris? I read here that they haven't inducted any into the inner circle and treat them as fodder but I don't know if there is more to it or whether it's just a single throwaway line of text.
This was very helpful. I think some of those strats, traits, relics, and spells when used with synergy will be extremely powerful. The only problem is generating CP. Thankfully, the WL Trait gives you (theoretically) 33% more CP.
The trait is IMO the best one in the codex. You get a lot more mileage out of it with 1 CP stratagems as it's a 1-to-1 refund on a 5+ , the built in 'free command reroll' also offered by the trait just sweetens the deal.
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warboss wrote: Any more news or screenshots about how they're incorporating primaris? I read here that they haven't inducted any into the inner circle and treat them as fodder but I don't know if there is more to it or whether it's just a single throwaway line of text.
Pretty much fluff only. Azrael had no choice when confronted by Gulliman with the Primaris reinforcements knowing that Gulliman possibly suspects 'something' They are very much kept at arms length from the secrets of the chapter and are only told what other standard battle brothers are told.
Deep strike terminators into heart of enemy formation. May be deployed just outside of 6" of enemy units instead of 9". 1 CP for 1 unit, 3 CPs for 2 units. May only be used once per battle.
Hmmm...1 CP to have a unit of 10 Knights get a >70% chance of a T1 charge - better still with a reroll? That seems maybe a little imbalanced. I'm as disappointed as anyone that Deathwing Assault isn't actually beneficial to assaulting, but that'd probably break things a bit.
MilkmanAl wrote: Hmmm...1 CP to have a unit of 10 Knights get a >70% chance of a T1 charge better still with a reroll? That seems maybe a little imbalanced.
not really. It's one unit, no more unbalanced than some other strategems out there that can't be stopped unless you screen well. Same here.
warboss wrote: Any more news or screenshots about how they're incorporating primaris? I read here that they haven't inducted any into the inner circle and treat them as fodder but I don't know if there is more to it or whether it's just a single throwaway line of text.
Pretty much fluff only. Azrael had no choice when confronted by Gulliman with the Primaris reinforcements knowing that Gulliman possibly suspects 'something' They are very much kept at arms length from the secrets of the chapter and are only told what other standard battle brothers are told.
Thanks. I'd personally think that something as monumentus as adding in such different marines (some of whom were recruited back just after the betrayal of the Fallen) into a such a secretive chapter would warrant at least a large side panel's worth of discussion or preferably a full page IMO.
I know there are 3 videos in the topic. Do any of them list what the table of contents has? Just wondering what new toys the DA are getting. Gotta plan the budget.
Hunters, Stalkers, Stormraven, Land Speeder Storm, and Scout Bikers are in for sure, along with all the Primaris guys. I "think" I saw the Stormtalon in one of the videos too but I'm not 100% sure. The Ravenwing lieutenant on Sammael's old speeder is in along with Cataphracti and Tartarus Terminators and I think that was it. No Centurions, Thunderfires, Sternguard, or Vanguard but other than that I think we now have more units to choose from than Vanilla Marines.
jason1977 wrote: I know there are 3 videos in the topic. Do any of them list what the table of contents has? Just wondering what new toys the DA are getting. Gotta plan the budget.
i guess!
god, give me a break.
