Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: Does the Rynn's World box come with the planes? I definitely want the campaign book and box, but I might also get the starter box if that's the way to get the models at a discount. Having a spare rulebook wouldn't be the worst thing since there's a good chance I'll be providing both sides when I play this game.
Rynn’s world campaign is just a book, not another box.
There's also a box, but looking closer at the smaller print on front I guess it's just be a cardboard game mat/board.
Yeah sorry, I realised that just now. The Rynn’s World box is just a cardboard game board, no planes or anything.
meade2763 wrote: Could anyone familar with the original please tell me if there is rules for damage in the game ( crippled planes ), or are planes just fully functional or destroyed?. Which doesnt seem very thematic to me.
Thanks
The planes had "wounds", so a Marauder had more than a Lightning. IIRC the Thunderbolt had 2 wounds and a special 6+ save. From what I can tell, planes didn't last long when they started taking hits. There wasn't any "critical" damage like X-Wing, but that might be different in this edition.
Thanks for the pics red, that's some impressive looking kits. My FLGS is getting in three kits so hopefully there will be an active scene for it round here.
Looks like they’ve literally subbed hexes for inches and the diagrams (any resemblance to actual aerobatic manoeuvre diagrams is probably not coincidental) for the cards and kept the rest of the rules almost identical to first edition AI, based mostly on the fact that the aircraft cards are nearly identical.
What seems to be new are actual status conditions like stalls and tailspins which probably use the new piloting stat to avoid/get out of. Like you probably have to roll over your piloting when manoeuvring to avoid going into a spin, or something. Maybe thy can be triggered by damage too?
The lowered flight ceiling is a bit of a mystery though. Seems completely arbitrary to me. Maybe play testing found too many people with high-ceiling craft ‘hiding’ from lower altitude flyers so they compressed the altitude band…?
Wings of Vengeance Starter set £55.00
Rynn’s World Air War Campaign Book £22.00
Imperial Navy Marauder Destroyers x2 £25.00
Imperial Navy Thunderbolt Fighters x4 £25.00
Imperial Navy Marauder Bombers x2 £25.00
Ork Air Waaagh! Dakkajets x6 £25.00
Ork Air Waaagh! Fighta Bommers x4 £25.00
Aircraft & Aces Imperial Navy Cards £16.00
Aircraft & Aces Ork Air Waaagh! Cards £16.00
Imperial Navy Dice Set £10.00
Ork Flyboyz Dice Set £10.00
Rynn’s World Area of Engagement £26.00
Ground Assets and Objectives £25.00
Looks like it might get a little pricey, but man there is some cool stuff in there!
What do the cards do, is that important?
How does the starter set pricing look to you guys, is it worth getting two starters instead of individual ship packs? Are there any ships you don't have access to if you get the starter?
I'll definitely be after that separate card board, too... time to look at selling some stuff to cover this
Hmm, $10 savings doesn't seem that great since I'll be after the separate board, etc anyway... still might be worth getting a single starter to be able to loan out the paper rulebook, though. Thanks guys!
Did a quick search and managed to find corresponding prices for everything but the map, couldn't find anything at £26 in the online store.
But right now.. ouch. Will have to drop the extra planes and ground assets for now. Cards and dice will most likely sell out on the day it goes up, so can't let this slip me by.
Did a quick search and managed to find corresponding prices for everything but the map, couldn't find anything at £26 in the online store.
But right now.. ouch. Will have to drop the extra planes and ground assets for now. Cards and dice will most likely sell out on the day it goes up, so can't let this slip me by.
All necromunda gang is 26 pound after the price hike, so 42US$
They are not in scale with my old stuff, and that makes me sad as I have a LOT of old AI stuff. I was going to auto-buy but now I will probably skip it and stay with my own self-sculpts.
Eh those prices are in line with comparable x-wing large ship expansions. If it’s JUST the unassembled planes and bases in the expansions, it’ll be bad value. If there’s cards and stuff it’ll be easier to stomach.
Quasistellar wrote: Eh those prices are in line with comparable x-wing large ship expansions. If it’s JUST the unassembled planes and bases in the expansions, it’ll be bad value. If there’s cards and stuff it’ll be easier to stomach.
Fairly certain it's just the models and dial base, maybe you'll get a printed piece of paper for the aircraft rule. Otherwise they wouldn't be selling the aircraft cards separately.
Price is actually better than I expected for the most part. They could easily sell you 4 thunderbolt at 50USD, or 2 at 35/40 just like they did with AT Imperial Knight, but they held back.
The starter is a pretty reasonable price, and so are the planes, but a lot of the other stuff if pretty steep. 16 pounds for cards probably equates to 25 USD for a pack of cards and roughly 40 USD for a cardboard game board with GW rates.
The Campaign Book seems really reasonable too.
I think my initial purchases are going to be a lot more expensive than anticipated.
SamusDrake wrote: Compared to last year's Titanicus, this is an excellent launch line up that cannot be faulted.
What do you mean? The only fault I can recall with Titanicus was how quickly it sold out. I doubt this will be any different in that regard, since GW loves the illusion that 'selling out' brings.
This is two factions, a handful of planes and a bunch of bobbins and tchotchkes.
To spare you from the horrors of a lengthy post - it was too limited and expensive. Not expensive for what it was, but just for getting a minimum group together for matched play. £175 - bargain or not - was too much for a starter set that didn't even cover a mandatory maniple for matched play.
Aeronautica, on the other hand has a very affordable starter set, two factions, match-play ready( so it seems )...campaign book, dice. The selection of aircraft is also decent.
Sabotage! wrote: The starter is a pretty reasonable price, and so are the planes, but a lot of the other stuff if pretty steep. 16 pounds for cards probably equates to 25 USD for a pack of cards and roughly 40 USD for a cardboard game board with GW rates.
The Campaign Book seems really reasonable too.
I think my initial purchases are going to be a lot more expensive than anticipated.
The game board is likely skippable. I bet we see at least a few neoprene mat makers come out with Grimdark Aerospace themed products if AI sells well.
The paper gameboard in the boxed set is 2.5' x 2.5', right? But the game board 'expansion' is 3x3? I recall hearing / reading that somewhere... But an unboxing video I saw made it sound like some battles might go to 4' wide. That seems odd (which makes me think I'm mis-remembering something...)
I think that makes the gameboard expansion skippable until I can pick up a neoprene mat that's 6'x4' or something that will cover all my bases, so to speak...
Do we know what size the hexes are? There are plenty of hexmaps out there already, or mats that would have a hexgrid easily laid over them if we knew the size.
infinite_array wrote: Do we know what size the hexes are? There are plenty of hexmaps out there already, or mats that would have a hexgrid easily laid over them if we knew the size.
SamusDrake wrote: Compared to last year's Titanicus, this is an excellent launch line up that cannot be faulted.
What do you mean? The only fault I can recall with Titanicus was how quickly it sold out. I doubt this will be any different in that regard, since GW loves the illusion that 'selling out' brings.
This is two factions, a handful of planes and a bunch of bobbins and tchotchkes.
To spare you from the horrors of a lengthy post - it was too limited and expensive. Not expensive for what it was, but just for getting a minimum group together for matched play. £175 - bargain or not - was too much for a starter set that didn't even cover a mandatory maniple for matched play.
Aeronautica, on the other hand has a very affordable starter set, two factions, match-play ready( so it seems )...campaign book, dice. The selection of aircraft is also decent.
If the rules and points are similar to the old AI, the contents of the starter will be close to the 100 points of an average 1 hour-ish AI game. However, the scenarios will be limited to Americans and Brits reliving the glory days of 1943-44 as Imperials Escort bombers to targets or off the board whilst the Orks try to intercept. Pure dogfighting will be a bit lacking and would need another 2 thunderbolts to evenly match forces outside of a ground tactical objective. IIRC the fighta bombas were still pretty well matched against the Thunderbolts, so the Ork side of the boxed set should be pretty good from the get go.
To anyone getting into the game a la carte, I suspect a box of dakka jets and a box of thunderbolts is all you need for good dogfighting. The pricing is pretty good, because if there's a group looking to play, the initial investment for a playable squadron is at the 25 GBP/40 USD level, like buying into a Necromunda gang. Whilst they mention up to 12 aircraft per side, 4-6 was always the sweet spot for fun fast gaming.
I hope that the missions are varied enough. Classic dogfighting is what I want the most, so I'll probably pick up an extra thunderbolt box. I wonder what the release schedule will be for the other races? are they going for a necromunda style where it takes a year to have everyone represented, it'll slows my interest in the game. I will buy the cools models no matter what as I can use them for cool stuff not game related.
For now...its a box of Thunderbolts for use in another game. If Aeronautica takes off( boom-boom! ) in the local game club then I'll get a copy of Rynns World and go from there.
Racerguy180 wrote: I wonder what the release schedule will be for the other races?
Pure speculation on my end, but I'm willing to bet it'll be the T'au, if only because they were heavily featured in the only expansion book for the original game and that's the only other faction Karl Kopinski did pilot art for.
I think it is funny that the Ork aircraft are aerodynamically a better actual functional design than the Imperium aircraft. At high speeds the forward-swept wings will suffer catastrophic wing structure failure when flying under atmospheric conditions. Orks for the win!
Tokhuah wrote: I think it is funny that the Ork aircraft are aerodynamically a better actual functional design than the Imperium aircraft. At high speeds the forward-swept wings will suffer catastrophic wing structure failure when flying under atmospheric conditions. Orks for the win!
The existence of the (albeit prototype) Su-47,SR-10 and the X-29 argue that. They are irrelevant due to the nature of aerial combat putting emphasis on missiles not maneuverability, not structural weakness. Modern materials allow the wings to twist and bend the way they would need to at high speeds and attack angles.
Both those airplanes were discontinued due to the exact reasons I brought up. Assuming the power of a 40k aircraft is greater than modern jets, then high performance will be met with the wings warping or snapping off. The Imperials even lack the forward canard so it is just as high fantasy as Eldar flyers. I have no problem with fantasy, but I am amused by bad science, and that in all other forms it is an Ork thing. The Ork airplanes look like they actually work.
Tokhuah wrote: Both those airplanes were discontinued due to the exact reasons I brought up. Assuming the power of a 40k aircraft is greater than modern jets, then high performance will be met with the wings warping or snapping off. The Imperials even lack the forward canard so it is just as high fantasy as Eldar flyers. I have no problem with fantasy, but I am amused by bad science, and that in all other forms it is an Ork thing. The Ork airplanes look like they actually work.
Well lo and behold the Lightning also got discontinued, literally.
Tokhuah wrote: Both those airplanes were discontinued due to the exact reasons I brought up. Assuming the power of a 40k aircraft is greater than modern jets, then high performance will be met with the wings warping or snapping off. The Imperials even lack the forward canard so it is just as high fantasy as Eldar flyers. I have no problem with fantasy, but I am amused by bad science, and that in all other forms it is an Ork thing. The Ork airplanes look like they actually work.
Well seeing how 40k aircrafts loiter around leisuredly over battlefield slow enough to be shot by pistols and flamers I would assume they have lower power than modern jets
Tokhuah wrote: Both those airplanes were discontinued due to the exact reasons I brought up. Assuming the power of a 40k aircraft is greater than modern jets, then high performance will be met with the wings warping or snapping off. The Imperials even lack the forward canard so it is just as high fantasy as Eldar flyers. I have no problem with fantasy, but I am amused by bad science, and that in all other forms it is an Ork thing. The Ork airplanes look like they actually work.
When you look at the lore behind the lightning you'll see that the forward swept wings were a very hard hurtle to get over in the adaptation from it being an STC to a functioning fighter.
As someone who has worked as a line technician for years, and who is working on a pilot license, i don't see the problem at all. The writers give an in universe reason as to why it exists the way that it does, and continually adhere to that explanation. There is internal consistency, allowing for one to suspend disbelief.
Racerguy180 wrote: I wonder what the release schedule will be for the other races?
Pure speculation on my end, but I'm willing to bet it'll be the T'au, if only because they were heavily featured in the only expansion book for the original game and that's the only other faction Karl Kopinski did pilot art for.
I reckon they'll be releasing the rest of the imperium aircraft( starting with lightning probably) alongside new faction (1 fighter+1 bomber) . This production load is even heavier than AT, and know how slow SG usually, I hope they can keep up.
Tokhuah wrote: Both those airplanes were discontinued due to the exact reasons I brought up. Assuming the power of a 40k aircraft is greater than modern jets, then high performance will be met with the wings warping or snapping off. The Imperials even lack the forward canard so it is just as high fantasy as Eldar flyers. I have no problem with fantasy, but I am amused by bad science, and that in all other forms it is an Ork thing. The Ork airplanes look like they actually work.
When you look at the lore behind the lightning you'll see that the forward swept wings were a very hard hurtle to get over in the adaptation from it being an STC to a functioning fighter.
As someone who has worked as a line technician for years, and who is working on a pilot license, i don't see the problem at all. The writers give an in universe reason as to why it exists the way that it does, and continually adhere to that explanation. There is internal consistency, allowing for one to suspend disbelief.
It’s also the case that all the 40k factions have access to materials far stronger or lighter (for a given strength) than any we currently know so the existence of forward-sweep wings is by no means a deal breaker from an aero structure point of view. The Thunderbolt having all the streamlined grace of Worcester cathedral gives the impression that Imperial stuff is low tech, but it isn’t.
I’m i. Two minds as to what to buy now. A freind at my club is going in so I’m now considering giving the starter a miss for now, and buying the book, cards, and mat. (And use my existing planes, at least for a while)
Just notice that Marauder Bomber can now take missiles, So you can turn them into Air combat role with 4 pair of Sky strike missile now. I expect Destroyer would be able to do the same.
Tokhuah wrote: Both those airplanes were discontinued due to the exact reasons I brought up. Assuming the power of a 40k aircraft is greater than modern jets, then high performance will be met with the wings warping or snapping off. The Imperials even lack the forward canard so it is just as high fantasy as Eldar flyers. I have no problem with fantasy, but I am amused by bad science, and that in all other forms it is an Ork thing. The Ork airplanes look like they actually work.
When you look at the lore behind the lightning you'll see that the forward swept wings were a very hard hurtle to get over in the adaptation from it being an STC to a functioning fighter.
As someone who has worked as a line technician for years, and who is working on a pilot license, i don't see the problem at all. The writers give an in universe reason as to why it exists the way that it does, and continually adhere to that explanation. There is internal consistency, allowing for one to suspend disbelief.
It’s also the case that all the 40k factions have access to materials far stronger or lighter (for a given strength) than any we currently know so the existence of forward-sweep wings is by no means a deal breaker from an aero structure point of view. The Thunderbolt having all the streamlined grace of Worcester cathedral gives the impression that Imperial stuff is low tech, but it isn’t.
I’m i. Two minds as to what to buy now. A freind at my club is going in so I’m now considering giving the starter a miss for now, and buying the book, cards, and mat. (And use my existing planes, at least for a while)
The issue with the thunderbolt isn’t structural, it’s that a design like that would struggle to get supersonic and even if it did have enough power it would be very unstable. Even well below supersonic the sharp edges would locally accelerate then separate the airflow, creating a wonderfully horrible mix of local shockwaves due to compressibility and sections of the aircraft that are permanently stalled.
The forward swept wings of the lightning are the least of the problems with the Imperial aircraft.
For me with the best part is the pricing is super reasonable and competitive with the old resin model pricing.
The buy in is $40 as long as one person has either the rulebook or campaign book and there's a hex mat to play on. I imagine there are already or will be some nice 3rd party mats too.
Seriously, if it's like the old AI, this is going to be fun with a single faction fighter box and it will be worth having a fighter box from every faction.
I get that GW wants everyone to buy 12-20 aircraft rosters so they can play every possible scenario, but they should really be playing up the whole: "all you need is a box of Dakkajets" aspect of the game to get more people invested.
witchdoctor wrote: For me with the best part is the pricing is super reasonable and competitive with the old resin model pricing.
The buy in is $40 as long as one person has either the rulebook or campaign book and there's a hex mat to play on. I imagine there are already or will be some nice 3rd party mats too.
Seriously, if it's like the old AI, this is going to be fun with a single faction fighter box and it will be worth having a fighter box from every faction.
I get that GW wants everyone to buy 12-20 aircraft rosters so they can play every possible scenario, but they should really be playing up the whole: "all you need is a box of Dakkajets" aspect of the game to get more people invested.
In case you still didn't know the unboxing video on "Too Many Metal Men" Youtube chanel skim through almost all the basic rule from the box.
Finally a good look at the sprue and model, its like they're reading my yesterday comment (probably certainly not)
With all the options mentioned, what are people's thought on "WYSIWYG" for this game? Do you plan to build a different ship for each main version of an airship, but not for the optional wargear? Is it okay to put on wargear for looks even if it doesn't make it into your list? Etc...
Edit: Alpharius, see this post, I think in your case you'd be better off going the a la carte route:
The Rynn world campaign book is an expansion based on a Scenario in the original rulebook. Clash of Aces, Ork Ace Black Barun vs Imperial Ace Ricter Dagor Jaml.
Also I noticed on the Marauder Bomber weapon sprue you get 8 Hellstrikemissiles and 8 Bombs, which mean you won't have enough to arm 2 Marauder full of missile.
And since they didn't have Skystrike missiles, I suspect it'll be on the Marauder Destroyer weapon sprue, probably alongside another set of Hellstrike Missile.
Or else you had to stole them from the Thunderbolt sprue, which is really dumb. I don't need that many bombs, especially since Marauder Bomber or Destroyer all come with bombs bay.
Are ships like the Arvus and Aquila lander something that could be feasible with this sort of gameplay? It would be interesting to see those in this sort of scale but I have no idea if they'd work, is there a list of what was available in the original release anywhere?
Mentlegen324 wrote: Are ships like the Arvus and Aquila lander something that could be feasible with this sort of gameplay? It would be interesting to see those in this sort of scale but I have no idea if they'd work, is there a list of what was available in the original release anywhere?
Someone posted a page from the old rule book earlier in this thread that had a full list of aircraft with their points cost.
Yes, slow transports have a place in missions where you need to drop troops off without them getting shot out of the sky. The Arvus had a model, can’t remember if the Aquila did.
Mentlegen324 wrote: Are ships like the Arvus and Aquila lander something that could be feasible with this sort of gameplay? It would be interesting to see those in this sort of scale but I have no idea if they'd work, is there a list of what was available in the original release anywhere?
Transports were a key part of the missions, and transports had their capacity as something like a bombers bomb bays - in missions where you are attacking a base you could land troops to do the equivalent of guaranteed damage rather than attack directly with guns or bombs. However whilst a bomber could fly over the target and just had to be careful with speed in order to have it's bombs hit on target, a transport needing to end it's turn at 0 speed and altitude doing the most basic manoeuvre (straight) - which could be tricky when you've not got a great deal of thrust and will pick up speed if you start too fast and too high. Jump troops let you do a pass over to drop troops but height was important then (though I might have mixed up which way bombs and drop troops go).
That was in the big missions, alternatively a lot of the smaller 'raid' style missions might have you escort some small transport that has to land or land and take off whilst fighters try to intercept.
The arvus is dirt cheap, so could come in numbers if you only needed one evac shuttle to make it out alive but was slow and had the lowest agility. An Aquilla was the opposite, more expensive, highly mobile and fairly quick - it'd would be able to avoid the worst of enemy fire but those manoeuvres are still going to take you further away from your target and likely get you excess speed - the closer you are to the landing site, the more predictable you'd be and your side would be outnumbered by the enemy so if you waste too much time you might end up losing your escorts.
Crimson wrote: I hope they make some completely new planes for this game.
Eh, that's dangerous ground to treat when GW has a rather large portfolio of existing 40K designs for a number of races. The second you start building new stuff, you'll get endless cries (sometimes justified) of "where are the _______ that have been around for 20 years?".
Crimson wrote: I hope they make some completely new planes for this game.
Eh, that's dangerous ground to treat when GW has a rather large portfolio of existing 40K designs for a number of races. The second you start building new stuff, you'll get endless cries (sometimes justified) of "where are the _______ that have been around for 20 years?".
Yeah, they kinda already invented a new one with the Fury, lets get some of the existing stuff out first, like Lightnings, Valkyries, and Vultures. Then the Eldar, Chaos, and T’au.
Between the matched play codex stuff and the existing Forge World flyers, they each have three kits minimum.
Sure, but it's akin to launching Adeptus Titanicus and skipping Reavers and Warhounds to release new titans first, etc. If the game is successful they'll probably get there eventually...but they'll get lambasted if they skip classical stuff in favour or new junk. Though you could perhaps see Primaris based marine ships before they show up in 40K?
Oh yeah, forgot about marines actually having an air wing now too, between the various storm-whatsits and the Xiphon.
Another thing they might also be thinking about is themed ground defences to match each race, like they have the Ork and imperial ones now.
Not that I’ll be surprised if we ‘discover’ a few more variants, hitherto unrecorded but reassuringly ancient and thoroughly tested of course.
Crimson wrote: I hope they make some completely new planes for this game.
Eh, that's dangerous ground to treat when GW has a rather large portfolio of existing 40K designs for a number of races. The second you start building new stuff, you'll get endless cries (sometimes justified) of "where are the _______ that have been around for 20 years?".
I'm more excited by the idea that they have "unbiggened" some of the models. The FW Thunderbolt and Marauder are old kits, far before the current CADFW models. Hopefully this means they rebuilt them digitally in full scale before shrinking them. It would be great if they used those digital assets to remaster the kits, or even better convert at least the thunderbolt to plastic.
I think they should've make another small sprue for the ork bommer to give them Grot bomb. Pretty sure it won't be as big as the Marauder weapons sprue. Now what? They''ll be selling 10 pack Grot bombs kit as resin or something?
MajorTom11 wrote: I know absolutely nothing about this game... is it simple and easy a la x-wing or is it a more complicated affair?
Pretty straightforward game, you fly and shoot (or bomb), the only thing that you need to keep track is speed and attitude. Weapons other than missiles and bomb had unlimited ammo now (they can only shoot a few time in the original game), and it's in hex board, so less time spending to measure distance or maneuver
Chopstick wrote: Weapons other than missiles and bomb had unlimited ammo now (they can only shoot a few time in the original game)
Oh boo. Having limited ammunition was a great idea, it made it so that shooting is not always the correct choice. Now of course you roll the dice on that long range shot needing 6s to hit, it's not like it costs you anything to do it.
Chopstick wrote: Weapons other than missiles and bomb had unlimited ammo now (they can only shoot a few time in the original game)
Oh boo. Having limited ammunition was a great idea, it made it so that shooting is not always the correct choice. Now of course you roll the dice on that long range shot needing 6s to hit, it's not like it costs you anything to do it.
Certainly make people think twice before unleashing all of their available weapons upon the target, but doesn't make sense when you think about it, especially for auto weapon, which would carry hundred to thousand of ammo round.
Chopstick wrote: I think they should've make another small sprue for the ork bommer to give them Grot bomb. Pretty sure it won't be as big as the Marauder weapons sprue. Now what? They''ll be selling 10 pack Grot bombs kit as resin or something?
I'm not even sure they'll include Grot Bombs. They might not release all the stuff that is/was available in 28mm. They might also abstract some stuff to all be one generic entry, so wing rokkits, skorcha missiles and supa-rokkits are all just wing rokkits or something along those lines. The unboxing video went over the rules for the Ork planes in the starter box and there was no option for them, but maybe the starter box cut out rules for some of the stuff?
They might also release some more Ork planes down the road. If they bring back missions involving dropping infantry I imagine they'll bring back Bommers (as opposed to the Fighta-Bomma in the starting kit). Those might have Grot Bombs.
The Dakkajet is also interesting, in that they gave it the ability to take bombs and rokkits. It might be an abstraction for Dakkajets, Blitza-Bommas and Burna-Bommas. It might also be more along the lines of the old Fighta and they just chose a name from something still in production. It doesn't really match up with the options for any of those though. Maybe the options are what they had in the old AI? I never played the original.
Chopstick wrote: Weapons other than missiles and bomb had unlimited ammo now (they can only shoot a few time in the original game)
Oh boo. Having limited ammunition was a great idea, it made it so that shooting is not always the correct choice. Now of course you roll the dice on that long range shot needing 6s to hit, it's not like it costs you anything to do it.
Certainly make people think twice before unleashing all of their available weapons upon the target, but doesn't make sense when you think about it, especially for auto weapon, which would carry hundred to thousand of ammo round.
Eh, I can definitely see how having limited ammo makes sense for the auto weapons. Many fully auto weapons can turn out 750-1000 rounds per minute, so even if you have 1000 rounds in a weapon that is only 1 to a bit over a minute of sustained fire. Considering most auto weapons on fighters are in fixed positions, the firer is moving, and the target is moving (at very high speeds), I imagine it's not very easy to hit the target. Obviously each shot wouldn't represent a single shot of ammo, but a burst of rounds trying to hit a target. If the auto weapons had ammo of 6, 8, or 10 I could see that being reasonable.
I'm not particularly miffed about it or what not, but I think limited ammo would make the game a bit more tactical.
Chopstick wrote: I think they should've make another small sprue for the ork bommer to give them Grot bomb. Pretty sure it won't be as big as the Marauder weapons sprue. Now what? They''ll be selling 10 pack Grot bombs kit as resin or something?
I'm not even sure they'll include Grot Bombs. They might not release all the stuff that is/was available in 28mm. They might also abstract some stuff to all be one generic entry, so wing rokkits, skorcha missiles and supa-rokkits are all just wing rokkits or something along those lines. The unboxing video went over the rules for the Ork planes in the starter box and there was no option for them, but maybe the starter box cut out rules for some of the stuff?
They might also release some more Ork planes down the road. If they bring back missions involving dropping infantry I imagine they'll bring back Bommers (as opposed to the Fighta-Bomma in the starting kit). Those might have Grot Bombs.
The Dakkajet is also interesting, in that they gave it the ability to take bombs and rokkits. It might be an abstraction for Dakkajets, Blitza-Bommas and Burna-Bommas. It might also be more along the lines of the old Fighta and they just chose a name from something still in production. It doesn't really match up with the options for any of those though. Maybe the options are what they had in the old AI? I never played the original.
Dakkajet, which replaced the original AI Fighta, can take Bombs and Rokkit in the original rule.
For Fighta-Bommer, they can also take Grot Bomb, which also had models in epic scale, they're small aircrafts that are extremely fast and agile.
The booklet in the starter only cover what inside that box, stuff like Marauder destroyer or ground defense isn't there.
What's quite interesting and clever is the fact that the Marauder is split over two Sprues - the fuselage and then then the weapons and tail fins. Easy enough to swap that sprue for the Marauder Destroyer sprue. Means that the Marauder Vigilant and Colossus should be easy swap ins with lower cost to produce. May even be possible to magnetise them somewhat
Anyone else feel like Specialist Games are spreading themselves too thin? I mean, they can barely support Necromunda, Blood Bowl, and Adeptus Titanicus as it is. Infrequent, small releases, and stuff goes out of stock all the time, taking months to get restocked (if it ever does in the first place). I mean, I consider Necromunda's support to be below the bare minimum. I hesitate even to call it a living game.
Now, they are launching another new game system with regular new releases. You'll get a new sprue every four months, anything on cards or cardboard will disappear and never return, and you'll get ForgeWorld additions that will take a year to be released at a price that causes even the biggest GW defender's jaw to drop. And I'm sure Baxx can come in here and give some opinions on the quality of editing in their book releases...
I'd kind of like Specialist Games to get their gak together before launching a new system. I love new game systems, but when they say they are committed to supporting the game - I don't believe them.
If the game is fast to setup, quick to learn and somewhat fast playing, then I am definitely interested!
Finding the time to play a full battle game (40K, FoW) in one go is becoming harder and harder for me, as the responsibilities pile up.
Sqorgar wrote: Anyone else feel like Specialist Games are spreading themselves too thin? I mean, they can barely support Necromunda, Blood Bowl, and Adeptus Titanicus as it is. Infrequent, small releases, and stuff goes out of stock all the time, taking months to get restocked (if it ever does in the first place). I mean, I consider Necromunda's support to be below the bare minimum. I hesitate even to call it a living game.
Now, they are launching another new game system with regular new releases. You'll get a new sprue every four months, anything on cards or cardboard will disappear and never return, and you'll get ForgeWorld additions that will take a year to be released at a price that causes even the biggest GW defender's jaw to drop. And I'm sure Baxx can come in here and give some opinions on the quality of editing in their book releases...
I'd kind of like Specialist Games to get their gak together before launching a new system. I love new game systems, but when they say they are committed to supporting the game - I don't believe them.
At Forgeworld Open Day last year, Tony Cottrell mentioned they have enough capacity to support 4 specialist games at the time. I agree with you to some extent but not the fact that they can't support them long term. A few things to consider:
Cast your mind back 5-10 years where GW releases were every 3-4 months and that was the main codexes and armies books. So the pace of releases, to me, isn't that long a wait. We've become accustomed to the pace of GW releases in recent times Add to that the comment made by Andy Hall during this years Weekender at the start of the year where he mentioned that Titanicus sold through a years worth of product in approximately 4 months. I reckon they can't keep up with demand. Whether they'll do reprints or not is another thing, but some things have since been reprinted (Initial blood bowl releases which, ironically, rapidly sold out as well as some of the Titanicus Transfers and Terminals) Finally, they've been rumoured to have expanded the department recently as well, but I can't confirm for definite. Add to that the expanded production facility and I think we're golden for models. It's just the cards and accessories that are flagging at present.
Cast your mind back 5-10 years where GW releases were every 3-4 months and that was the main codexes and armies books. So the pace of releases, to me, isn't that long a wait. We've become accustomed to the pace of GW releases in recent times
I don't think a single Necromunda fan is happy with the state of Necromunda right now, so why are we getting Ambots and Khal Jericho in plastic when large portions of the game require a trip to ForgeWorld, or are outright missing? And we FINALLY got sleeves that fit Necromunda cards... only all of the cards are out of print and unavailable to buy. The schedule sucks, sure, but how they are using the schedule sucks more. They could do more with less, but they are doing less with less.
Add to that the comment made by Andy Hall during this years Weekender at the start of the year where he mentioned that Titanicus sold through a years worth of product in approximately 4 months. I reckon they can't keep up with demand. Whether they'll do reprints or not is another thing, but some things have since been reprinted (Initial blood bowl releases which, ironically, rapidly sold out as well as some of the Titanicus Transfers and Terminals)
AT is actually getting pretty decent support. When something goes out of print there, it usually comes back. I mean, Kill Team's starter set was out of print for how long? But we got the GME reprinted after a few months. And they released a discounted bundle! Several, actually, if you include the terrain. But all the Blood Bowl pitches, cards, dice, all the Necromunda cards, dice - roughly half to two-thirds of the products released for these games no longer exist. Most of it is optional - but it's the good kind of optional stuff that people might actually want.
So, is Aeronautica Imperialis going to get Necromunda support or Adeptus Titanicus support? I see they are releasing card packs the first week. Should I hedge my bets and buy those card packs now, just in case I decide to invest in the game six months later? What about the engagement zone board? Will that have the shelf life of a Blood Bowl pitch? How long do you think the fancy dice will be available? It's like half the game is limited edition.
I don't think a single Necromunda fan is happy with the state of Necromunda right now, so why are we getting Ambots and Khal Jericho in plastic when large portions of the game require a trip to ForgeWorld, or are outright missing? And we FINALLY got sleeves that fit Necromunda cards... only all of the cards are out of print and unavailable to buy. The schedule sucks, sure, but how they are using the schedule sucks more. They could do more with less, but they are doing less with less.
AT is actually getting pretty decent support. When something goes out of print there, it usually comes back. I mean, Kill Team's starter set was out of print for how long? But we got the GME reprinted after a few months. And they released a discounted bundle! Several, actually, if you include the terrain. But all the Blood Bowl pitches, cards, dice, all the Necromunda cards, dice - roughly half to two-thirds of the products released for these games no longer exist. Most of it is optional - but it's the good kind of optional stuff that people might actually want.
So, is Aeronautica Imperialis going to get Necromunda support or Adeptus Titanicus support? I see they are releasing card packs the first week. Should I hedge my bets and buy those card packs now, just in case I decide to invest in the game six months later? What about the engagement zone board? Will that have the shelf life of a Blood Bowl pitch? How long do you think the fancy dice will be available? It's like half the game is limited edition.
Does it count if I'm generally happy with Necromunda right now? Miniature availability is good as that's under direct control of GW. It seems they're struggling to keep cards and associated accessories in stock probably because they rely on 3rd parties. I agree that it's utterly frustrating. It wouldn't be anywhere near as bad if essential components (i.e. those that have game rules) had alternative options. For example, tactics cards, play cards and terminals having a PDF download or a table in a rulebook so that you can reference what you need easily instead of an obscure deck that had a short print run.
Dice, on the other hand, have always been a limited component. 40k and AoS dice are available until gone, though a higher production run would be nice. Yes, fancy dice are nice, but not essential when you can get the standard dice in the box. Hell, I'd love for them to do another production run for Alpha Legion dice for 30k. Same for game boards on their own. But additional rules that come with them should be available in a regularly available book or download. Higher production runs, again, would be nice.
As to AI, I expect a sellout in a similar manner so will grab it when it comes out.
Hmm, only 2 pair of Kustom Shoota, and it's only on the Fighta Bommer kit....... meanwhile you get truckload of rokkit and bombs. that you probably have more than needed.... Come on man.. Now I had to stole Imperial Knight stubber as replacement.
Chopstick wrote: Thunderbolt certainly isn't the "lightest" aircraft. Avenger Strike and Lightning are.
Now that you mention. I'd be super stoked to have both the Voss-pattern Lightnings and Avengers in an upcoming release.
I just hope they make the Lightnings good in some way with this release. In old AI, there was no point in taking a Lightning when for 4 points more you get a thunderbolt that was better in every way except it didn't get the two highest maneuver cards (which were of questionable utility.)
Chopstick wrote: Weapons other than missiles and bomb had unlimited ammo now (they can only shoot a few time in the original game)
Oh boo. Having limited ammunition was a great idea, it made it so that shooting is not always the correct choice. Now of course you roll the dice on that long range shot needing 6s to hit, it's not like it costs you anything to do it.
Certainly make people think twice before unleashing all of their available weapons upon the target, but doesn't make sense when you think about it, especially for auto weapon, which would carry hundred to thousand of ammo round.
What difference does that make? A Spitfire Mk1 had 2,400 rounds, which was enough for ... 15 seconds firing. Or, in AI terms, it had 8 shots, with each "shot" representing a 2 -second burst from all 8 guns at once. the quad autocannon in a Thunderbolt will be similar.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I wonder if we'll see an AA variant of the Marauder Destroyer at some point? skystrike missiles instead of ground-attack missiles, different targeting systems on the turrets and off you go.
I'm also now considering a custom map for Bommerz over da Sulphur River.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I wonder if we'll see an AA variant of the Marauder Destroyer at some point?
Oh please no. This whole idea of dogfighting with bombers is terrible. Bombers are there to wreck ground targets, not to act like 40kLoW and just be bigger and more expensive versions of normal units. This is something the original game did very nicely and it needs to carry over.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I wonder if we'll see an AA variant of the Marauder Destroyer at some point? skystrike missiles instead of ground-attack missiles, different targeting systems on the turrets and off you go.
I'm also now considering a custom map for Bommerz over da Sulphur River.
I made several posts about this, guess no one read them, even in the article they suggest Marauder bomber as sniper for the squadron. I even point out you get 0 Skystrike missile in the Marauder Bomber sprue, and so probably had to use them from the thunderbolt kit. (or don't becasuse skystrike missile is ugly,)
Whelp, I was worried how to separate my hobby funds after the Nova Open reveals, but I can safely say after an extremely disappointing set of reveals I can safely just spend that money on Aeronautica. Yah!
Crimson wrote: I hope they make some completely new planes for this game.
Eh, that's dangerous ground to treat when GW has a rather large portfolio of existing 40K designs for a number of races. The second you start building new stuff, you'll get endless cries (sometimes justified) of "where are the _______ that have been around for 20 years?".
*sigh*
You are right and it is still boring.
What sort of new aircraft are you thinking? I felt the Imperium was pretty well serviced, a couple of fighters, a heavy bomber, various transports and close support things. Some of the other races could use some roles filled out better, but the main ones (fighter and bomber) were well serviced with existing aircraft, so it seems odd to release something new before the existing ones.
I don't mind the idea of new aircraft, but unless they're filling out new roles I'd rather they just release the ones that already exist.
Chopstick wrote: Thunderbolt certainly isn't the "lightest" aircraft. Avenger Strike and Lightning are.
Now that you mention. I'd be super stoked to have both the Voss-pattern Lightnings and Avengers in an upcoming release.
I just hope they make the Lightnings good in some way with this release. In old AI, there was no point in taking a Lightning when for 4 points more you get a thunderbolt that was better in every way except it didn't get the two highest maneuver cards (which were of questionable utility.)
Personally I prefer the older style Lightnings, but I guess we're likely to get Voss pattern given they're a newer kit.
Chopstick wrote: I think they'd go for the classic lightning just like the old game. Still not a fan of this model because I don't like guns at the wing tips
And Voss lightning suck unless they replace the pointless spike on the belly with the autocannon hard point.
I don’t think they’ll be bound to the old models, they already replaced the fighta with the dakkajet.
Voss pattern just looks a bit too clunky to me, too many angles and faces such that it doesn’t look like anything coherent to me.
Ratius wrote: Was looking at some of the kit sprue pics.
Damn they look very small and fiddly. I hate assembly anyways but these look like my nightmare.
Just switch to plastic glue with a brush, like Tamiya extra thin cement. GW "dropet" plastic glue bottle is bad.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I wonder if we'll see an AA variant of the Marauder Destroyer at some point? skystrike missiles instead of ground-attack missiles, different targeting systems on the turrets and off you go.
I'm also now considering a custom map for Bommerz over da Sulphur River.
I made several posts about this, guess no one read them, even in the article they suggest Marauder bomber as sniper for the squadron. I even point out you get 0 Skystrike missile in the Marauder Bomber sprue, and so probably had to use them from the thunderbolt kit. (or don't becasuse skystrike missile is ugly,)
I know; I read all that. I still think that from a narrative point of view, a Marauder “aegis” would be an interesting addition. Using the standard bomber as any sort of air-to-air combatant makes as much sense as using TIE bombers in X-Wing. The Marauder is basically a sci fi Lancaster; having it mixing it up with fighters is daft.
I know; I read all that. I still think that from a narrative point of view, a Marauder “aegis” would be an interesting addition. Using the standard bomber as any sort of air-to-air combatant makes as much sense as using TIE bombers in X-Wing. The Marauder is basically a sci fi Lancaster; having it mixing it up with fighters is daft.
So you think using Marauder to combat fighters is wack but propose new Marauder variant to combat fighter? I think you'd actually want a completely new Aircraft, or a new Valkirie/Vulture variant.
Sabotage! wrote: Whelp, I was worried how to separate my hobby funds after the Nova Open reveals, but I can safely say after an extremely disappointing set of reveals I can safely just spend that money on Aeronautica. Yah!
Sadly not the case here; I might have to bail altogether on AI due to the incoming Banshees and other inevitable Aspects and Phoenix Lords - not to mention the possibilty of a new Avatar.
And doubtless there is more Titanicus on the way...
I know; I read all that. I still think that from a narrative point of view, a Marauder “aegis” would be an interesting addition. Using the standard bomber as any sort of air-to-air combatant makes as much sense as using TIE bombers in X-Wing. The Marauder is basically a sci fi Lancaster; having it mixing it up with fighters is daft.
So you think using Marauder to combat fighters is wack but propose new Marauder variant to combat fighter? I think you'd actually want a completely new Aircraft, or a new Valkirie/Vulture variant.
What are you talking about? I said using a Marauder to dogfight was daft, and instead suggested having one that’s part of the bomber formation provide defensive firepower. If a Marauder Bomber is an Avro Lancaster, then what I’m suggesting is something like a B-17 with increased anti-aircraft firepower at the expense of reduced (or eliminated entirely) ground attack capability.
Perhaps you’re not aware of it, but air-to-air dogfighting is not the only focus of this game (unlike X-Wing); it’s perfectly possible to have a slow-moving, lumbering bomber formation surrounded by more agile fighters.
Using Valkyries as bomber escorts is even more ridiculous; there’s a reason Hueys didn’t escort the B-52s to Hanoi.
Are you sure there is no skystrike missiles on the marauder sprue? That's disappointing, I was really hoping that you would be able to make every option from every sprue... I hate it when you have to buy extra kits just to fulfil the option which you want!
Is that How To Play video new? As someone who has never seen the game that was really helpful. Can't wait to try this
Yeah it’s new with the website. Good video as they Becca Scott how to plays generally are. The game looks really cool, mechanically simple, but you have to anticipate your opponent and plan your moves around that.
What are you talking about? I said using a Marauder to dogfight was daft, and instead suggested having one that’s part of the bomber formation provide defensive firepower. If a Marauder Bomber is an Avro Lancaster, then what I’m suggesting is something like a B-17 with increased anti-aircraft firepower at the expense of reduced (or eliminated entirely) ground attack capability.
So it's a Marauder Destroyer with Sky Strike Missile then? The only thing that could give it even more fire power is gun mount on wings, at that point I probably prefer it to be a new aircraft with better speed and maneuver.
What sort of new aircraft are you thinking? I felt the Imperium was pretty well serviced, a couple of fighters, a heavy bomber, various transports and close support things. Some of the other races could use some roles filled out better, but the main ones (fighter and bomber) were well serviced with existing aircraft, so it seems odd to release something new before the existing ones.
I don't mind the idea of new aircraft, but unless they're filling out new roles I'd rather they just release the ones that already exist.
Rogue Trader's landing craft and atmospheric-entry-capable starfighter escorts for it, the Overlord flyer for Space Marines, perhaps some crazy giant 'helicarrier' style flying command centre for the Imperial Navy, and of course the various aliens could use all sort of new planes. In this scale it would be possible to do bigger things too, stuff that would be impractical in 40K. Though I'm not as much talking about combat roles than new visually exiting designs.
Watching the ‘How to Play’, I think this might be a realistic challenger to X-Wing in terms of system (whether 40k and butt heads with Star Wars, who knows).
The hex system is pretty straight forward. And with a manoeuvres chart, and a simple guide as to who can do what, it may help deal with the difficulty curve X-Wing has*, as a new comer will have a clearer idea of just what the opposing plane might do.
But, the speed, altitude and tailing rules add in complexity where the hexes take it away. These are factors X-Wing doesn’t offer at present. So there’s definitely a tactical challenge for peeps that are old hand stick jockeys from that to learn and enjoy.
Proof of course will be in the playing. It could turn out to play like a bag of soggy weasels.
For £55 for lots of really nice models? I’m happy to find out.
*This is of course not a Bad Thing, inherently. Player skill absolutely should play a role in any game. But I find X-Wing too steep, as an experienced player will literally fly circles round a newcomer, and that can be off putting.
I think the bases are the worst part....I think basic clear hexes would be far better (and then you can mount all your aftermarket/3D printed planes on them)
Chopstick wrote: X-Wing had a lot of extra rule like Unique pilot skill , upgrade or damage deck. AI keep it simple and only focus on the dogfighting.
We had to see the new book and new pilot rule before drawing the conclusion, but I doubt it'll be that much different to the current revealed game.
Similarities as I see them?
Planes! Hidden manoeuvres. Damage.
Differences as I see them?
AI - Altitude counts for range. Tailing fire. Different weapons have different range ‘sweet spots’ where they’re most effective. Tailing fire.
X-Wing - individual pilot ratings, focus/target lock type stuff.
Me? I like that AI has worked in Altitude. Let’s a 2D playing field act 3D, in a way X-Wing hasn’t. Whether or not it works, remains to be seen,
Chopstick wrote: X-Wing had a lot of extra rule like Unique pilot skill , upgrade or damage deck. AI keep it simple and only focus on the dogfighting.
We had to see the new book and new pilot rule before drawing the conclusion, but I doubt it'll be that much different to the current revealed game.
Similarities as I see them?
Planes! Hidden manoeuvres. Damage.
Differences as I see them?
AI - Altitude counts for range. Tailing fire. Different weapons have different range ‘sweet spots’ where they’re most effective. Tailing fire.
X-Wing - individual pilot ratings, focus/target lock type stuff.
Me? I like that AI has worked in Altitude. Let’s a 2D playing field act 3D, in a way X-Wing hasn’t. Whether or not it works, remains to be seen,
I too like the altitude rules. But to be fair, X-wing doesn't need 3D rules as there is no significant gravity or air resistance in space that altitude rules are needed to represent the battlefield.
Tokhuah wrote: Correction on the website video (and game rules): Pitch is for Speed and Throttle is for Altitude.
That seems backwards. Pitch is the plane tilting up or down, and would seem more related to altitude than the throttle, something that increases or decreases your speed.
Tokhuah wrote: Correction on the website video (and game rules): Pitch is for Speed and Throttle is for Altitude.
That seems backwards. Pitch is the plane tilting up or down, and would seem more related to altitude than the throttle, something that increases or decreases your speed.
If you only pitch up and don't add power you will briefly climb, run out of speed, and either stall or descend again. If you want to climb you pitch up slightly for your best climb speed and add full power. It's a true statement, but it's much more relevant in landing approaches than in high-energy dogfighting.
Tokhuah wrote: X-Wing not having a vertical aspect makes it a tank game not a flying game.
Correction on the website video (and game rules): Pitch is for Speed and Throttle is for Altitude.
As a student pilot you are taught very early on during final for an approach, pitch is for speed and throttle is for altitude. Now there is a lot to this actually , but I'm just gonna link some info here for you. https://studentpilotnews.com/2017/12/18/pitch-power-answer/
To put it shortly, it depends on what you're doing and what kind of aircraft you're in. For the most part however really powerful jets that can accelerate faster than 9.8m/s^2 are going to prefer using pitch for altitude and throttle for speed.
Why are we talking about pitch and throttle? I can't see any characteristic about aircraft pitch, only throttle? Did they say something wrong in the video/rules?
Haha, I don't mind that we're talking about manoeuvring, I could burn a lot of time talking about real world dogfighting, racked up plenty of hours in WW2 sims, it just seemed like a random discussion about pitch and throttle which didn't actually have anything to do with AI, so was wondering if I missed something somewhere.
I too like the altitude rules. But to be fair, X-wing doesn't need 3D rules as there is no significant gravity or air resistance in space that altitude rules are needed to represent the battlefield.
Whilst not untrue, it's a single plane battle on a multiplane environment.
If AI's take on this works, it does stand a decent chance against X-Wing.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: If AI's take on this works, it does stand a decent chance against X-Wing.
From my playing the original years ago, it does nicely. It adds an extra tactical dimension and the advanced planning you have to do to get your fighters into the best position turns into a tense battle of nerves as you try to outmaneuver your opponent. Especially with the hidden maneuver orders at the start.
I think the altitude in old AI works okay, and trading off between altitude and speed was good (not sure if that trade off still exists in the new rules?, it'd be nice is there was a better visual representation of it so you could tell at a glance what altitude aircraft are at.
Given there's only 5 altitude levels now, it could be something like stacked magnets of different colours that lengthen or shorten the flying stand.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It seems the rules are mostly the same as they used to be, though some changes could have a big impact (like the unlimited ammo meaning people are going to be taking a lot more long shots now).
The hex board seems way too small, I know I said that earlier but previously it was because I was concerned they were changing the rules, but now I see the rules are much the same the small board just looks crowded. You can see in the "how to play" video that once you get 4 or so aircraft on each side there's not much free space between them.
Granted it wouldn't be too hard to convert the distances from hexes to inches and just play without the hex board, maybe have to make up some movement templates like there used to be.
Whilst not untrue, it's a single plane battle on a multiplane environment.
If AI's take on this works, it does stand a decent chance against X-Wing.
Doesn't have to compete with X-Wing, and GW/SG certainly didn't try to anyway, unlike what they did with WU. The kit is made with lots of tiny bits which is an instant turn off for many casual players.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: What sort of new aircraft are you thinking? I felt the Imperium was pretty well serviced, a couple of fighters, a heavy bomber, various transports and close support things. Some of the other races could use some roles filled out better, but the main ones (fighter and bomber) were well serviced with existing aircraft, so it seems odd to release something new before the existing ones.
Fury Interceptor (the Imperial Navy variety), I'm looking at you.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: What sort of new aircraft are you thinking? I felt the Imperium was pretty well serviced, a couple of fighters, a heavy bomber, various transports and close support things. Some of the other races could use some roles filled out better, but the main ones (fighter and bomber) were well serviced with existing aircraft, so it seems odd to release something new before the existing ones.
Fury Interceptor (the Imperial Navy variety), I'm looking at you.
Poorly armed for atmospheric combat, The size is at least double a marauder but the firepower isn't.
Regarding 3D on 2D playing tables, I was bummed pretty hard when I tried X-Wing. Not sure if it's the proper rule or for expediency at the demo, but man was it dumb that little fighters could block bigger ships by idling in front of them and collisions were forced. The scale of the game was awful.
I much preferred the BFG way of "space is big and you need special orders to collide".
Only 5 altitude bands really limits the maneuver, aircraft differentiation, and engagement envelope from the original. Plus, 0-9 can easily be tracked on a d10.
In regards to X-wing, they both have their strengths and weaknesses. My main concern is if AI acts as a more of a military squadron working together, where X-wing feels like a bunch of individual guys doing their own thing in their own custom craft. I prefer one style way more than another.
The biggest weakness in old AI was the lack of differences really between an Ace and a regular pilot. They had a slightly better ability to pull off special maneuvers in the advanced rules (about 16% better) and that was it. No Ace skills or anything like that.
What are you talking about? I said using a Marauder to dogfight was daft, and instead suggested having one that’s part of the bomber formation provide defensive firepower. If a Marauder Bomber is an Avro Lancaster, then what I’m suggesting is something like a B-17 with increased anti-aircraft firepower at the expense of reduced (or eliminated entirely) ground attack capability.
So it's a Marauder Destroyer with Sky Strike Missile then? The only thing that could give it even more fire power is gun mount on wings, at that point I probably prefer it to be a new aircraft with better speed and maneuver.
Depending on how the rules work, yes. The previous ruleset made a distinction between ground-attack weapons and anti-air weapons. the nose autocannon on the Marauder destroyer are ground-attack only, so my proposed anti-air variant would need a more flexible nose armament (another twin assault cannon turret instead, for example), as well as the option to mount anti-aircraft missiles.
Also, improved manoeuvrability is pointless - it can already keep position with Marauders. Again, you're talking about using a heavy bomber chassis to go dogfighting with interceptors, which is ridiculous. IMO, bombers are somewhere between objective markers and fortifications. All they need to do is plod across the playing surface. Let the attacking and defending fighters be the ones doing the fancy tricks. Now, it's unlikely that will be the case, but it doesn't mean I have to agree with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sherrypie wrote: Regarding 3D on 2D playing tables, I was bummed pretty hard when I tried X-Wing. Not sure if it's the proper rule or for expediency at the demo, but man was it dumb that little fighters could block bigger ships by idling in front of them and collisions were forced. The scale of the game was awful.
The blocking rules in X-Wing aren't there for any simulationist reason. They're only there because you can't easily have the miniatures overlapping. In Wings of Glory (from which X-Wing is derived), when two planes overlap, one is temporarily replaced with its card (in fact, the game was originally developed as a card game, with the miniatures added only as visual flair), but you can't do that in X-Wing.
Entirely unfamiliar with the original game, but the rules looks pretty good. Streamlined, sensible and probably quite fun.
Cost of entry could be.. ok? Depends a bit on how many of each type of aeroplane you want/"need" I guess. Some variation seems necessary for replayability, but you probably don't need enough to get a full squad of each individual type. Waiting to see what the Eldar and Chaos will be like, and some reviews of the actual requirements in terms and cards and stuff.
Hexes could be alright in this context - certainly makes things clearer, easier and faster to play. Biggest downside I see is the relative inflexibility of table sizes (different boards, or folding/marking a larger one to play smaller games is some hassle).
As for the overlapping/lack of elevation in X-Wing - same applies here really, you still can't occupy the same space. X-Wing represents closeness by being unable to shoot at each other, while here you are placed further along, possibly making you liable to being shot in the back by the enemy you just overshot. Not sure how much of a risk there is of the latter as you appear to be quite flexible in your moves most of the time (something I prefer in X-Wing, where you have to anticipate enemy movements better, while here you can still decide to go left or right depending on preceding maneuvres).
Coenus Scaldingus wrote: Hexes could be alright in this context - certainly makes things clearer, easier and faster to play. Biggest downside I see is the relative inflexibility of table sizes (different boards, or folding/marking a larger one to play smaller games is some hassle).
For people who want to play the game a bunch I think tiles might be the way to go in order to get a good variety when it comes to the board.
The video made the game seem fairly simple to play. It has me thinking that (with some heavy tweaking, of course) it might make a good basis for a dumbed down and faster version of BFG.
I'm assuming the starter set isn't a one-off limited release? Didn't realize the Adeptus Titanicus set wasn't available anymore but I don't know if the situation for that is different than with this.
Mentlegen324 wrote: I'm assuming the starter set isn't a one-off limited release? Didn't realize the Adeptus Titanicus set wasn't available anymore but I don't know if the situation for that is different than with this.
I reckon they might do seasonal boxes like WH:Underworlds - change the races and gameboard.
Looking at the ground terrain bits, I would love to see the 4 emplacements be made in 40k scale. It is amusing that they "hydra batteries" are actually the Anvillius defense battery off of the Warbringer titan. Nice to see one bit is ready for the AT Warbringer model.
Interesting. If GW have the art ready to go and already posted it, I imagine we will see the 'Eavy Bombers and another Imperial kit in the next few months, if not sooner. That would be awesome.
That Bommer looks good. I'm glad they're including it!
lord_blackfang wrote: It just feels off somehow that everything happens in an area just a few airplane lenghts across tho.
Doesn't the starter set come with a small board and the expansion is going to be bigger? For some reason I thought the Rynn's World board was going to be 3' x 3'.
The description of the Ork aircraft cards lists eavy bombers and Grot bombers. The imperial cards only list the four types that are already known. Looks like the next release will be a couple of Ork kits.
Chikout wrote: The description of the Ork aircraft cards lists eavy bombers and Grot bombers. The imperial cards only list the four types that are already known. Looks like the next release will be a couple of Ork kits.
That actually makes a lot of sense as the Imperials start with Marauder and Thunderbolt variants and the Orks just have the two options. I wouldn't be surprised if the 'Eavy Bombers Kit also builds Grot Bombers.
The heavy orc bomber looks great. The starter box is 90 USD right? That's not too bad....ugh this is tempting. The game seems a little complex for me though, for me X wing is just right but Armada a bit too clunky/complex. I'm gonna watch the how to play and see how it is. So not sure yet....the models look amazing though.
Another thing is they had better keep the game board in stock, cause the paper one isn't gonna cut it. If players have trouble getting the to scale board with hexes for this game then it'll be a hard pass. GWs track record recently with cards/tokens/dice/boards has been very poor.
My local store is a GW, I kind of doubt they'd let me bring in third party stuff. Plus the hexes need to be the right size, and third party mats usually lack a distinct 40k aesthetic. I just wish GW could be bothered to make substantial print runs for stuff that is kind of integral for new players.
Thargrim wrote: The heavy orc bomber looks great. The starter box is 90 USD right? That's not too bad....ugh this is tempting. The game seems a little complex for me though, for me X wing is just right but Armada a bit too clunky/complex. I'm gonna watch the how to play and see how it is. So not sure yet....the models look amazing though.
Another thing is they had better keep the game board in stock, cause the paper one isn't gonna cut it. If players have trouble getting the to scale board with hexes for this game then it'll be a hard pass. GWs track record recently with cards/tokens/dice/boards has been very poor.
What make you think this is more complex than x-wing? X wing each ship had a pilot with unique skill, and up to 8(or more?) extra upgrade, along with gallore of extra rule for action and status effect to apply.
In AI you fly and you shoot. The crew upgrade or ace pilot are optional and add very simple one line rule.
Going over the preorders, the bundels are a bit meh for me personally when it comes to getting those extra cards, so going for the game + book bundle and whatnot.
Looking at the cards, only Orks are slated to get new stuff in the direct future, I see no mention of the Lightning or Lightning Strike in the Imperial Aces card pack.
The price when I start adding up all the bits and pieces I'd like is definitely a bit hurty (especially when considering you don't actually end up with a hell of a lot of models at the end of it).
I feel like they might actually be more expensive than the old resin AI models? Not sure.
If GW are slowly bringing back Epic with AT and now AI, I don't think it's going to work because at these prices building an Epic army is going to be very expensive.
But you don't exactly need all the bits and pieces, if you are splitting the box set and the ground emplacements set with a friend, all you really need to buy on your own is the bigger mat and the rule book as the cards and dice are optional. And then a second wave of purchases for some more planes if you liked the game. For me I find the startup price quite reasonable (At least in Britain)
Thing is, they reckon 10 to 12 models/side is a 2-3 hr game. I’m pretty sure you don’t need much more than that for a force, especially if you invest in magnetising the ordnance. That’s one box of dakkajets and one of fighta-bommers, maybe with a box of ‘eavy bommers when they come out.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: The price when I start adding up all the bits and pieces I'd like is definitely a bit hurty (especially when considering you don't actually end up with a hell of a lot of models at the end of it).
I feel like they might actually be more expensive than the old resin AI models? Not sure.
If GW are slowly bringing back Epic with AT and now AI, I don't think it's going to work because at these prices building an Epic army is going to be very expensive.
Very expensive compare to? Decade old Epic?
The only really overpriced kit in the epic-at scale atm is the Imperial Knights.
Ditto, set my alarm to just a smidge past eleven my time, so I could put in my order as soon as possible and not miss out.
Went with the starter, campaign book, map, cards, dice and novels, I can always expand later, especially with a second wave of Ork stuff maybe one or two weeks out.
The planes look great but in the end I'm holding back on this one. Only because I'd rather have some other xenos. I will likely jump all in once Eldar/Chaos or Tyranids appear (helldrakes would look awesome in this and I'd be hopeful that Tyranids would see some more specialist air strains ]
Starter, Thunderbolt, Destroyer, Ground Asset, may be more dakkajet, kinda annoyed I had to buy Fighta bommer if I want kustom shoota bits, Books and card I'll watch youtube review beforehand, not that I think I would find a scene here anyway....
Then I'll make a bomb field terrain out of those left over Bomb bits, they gave us so many bomb bits, maybe one day when epic hit they'll be more useful.
Mr_Rose wrote: Thing is, they reckon 10 to 12 models/side is a 2-3 hr game. I’m pretty sure you don’t need much more than that for a force, especially if you invest in magnetising the ordnance. That’s one box of dakkajets and one of fighta-bommers, maybe with a box of ‘eavy bommers when they come out.
I don't know how easy it'll be to magnetise those weapons, they're pretty small. In the old AI days I never bothered modelling the ordnance like missiles and bombs, too mission dependent, just make up some counters/markers to put on the model's bases to know what bombs and missiles it has on board.
You might only *need* a box or two of models to play *a* game, but it's not like Blood Bowl where once you have a team you'll be done. If you actually get in to AI, you'll probably want 2 squadrons (to make it easier to find games, being a specialist game buying 1 squadron may just see it sitting on the shelf). Then in those squadrons you'll probably want 2 boxes worth of fighters, 1 box of bombers, and 1 of transports so that you can play a range of mission types (though some races there'll be overlap between bombers and transports, others they'll be separate, others you might be wanting even more variety). Then maybe buy some ground defences, then do you need to buy the race specific cards (not sure if all the aircraft rules are in the books or do they need to be bought separate?). Then if you don't get the starter set you might also need the tokens and a game board (given the board that comes in the box is only a poster you might want to buy one either way).
It's going to add up quickly for folk who want to play more than a couple of intro games.
So the initial buy in isn't terrible, but if you want to really get in to it rather than just playing a few games then shelving it, it's going to get expensive fast.
You could just buy Wings of Vengeance and call it a day if you wanted I suppose, but old AI I built up 4 races worth of squadrons by the end (some of which were large squadrons where I had options of what I'd lay down, others were just small fighter groups for the sake of variety and/or having something my friends could use to play with). Doing that in new AI looks like it'll put a bigger dent in the wallet than the FW options.
Mr_Rose wrote: Thing is, they reckon 10 to 12 models/side is a 2-3 hr game. I’m pretty sure you don’t need much more than that for a force, especially if you invest in magnetising the ordnance. That’s one box of dakkajets and one of fighta-bommers, maybe with a box of ‘eavy bommers when they come out.
I don't know how easy it'll be to magnetise those weapons, they're pretty small. In the old AI days I never bothered modelling the ordnance like missiles and bombs, too mission dependent, just make up some counters/markers to put on the model's bases to know what bombs and missiles it has on board.
You might only *need* a box or two of models to play *a* game, but it's not like Blood Bowl where once you have a team you'll be done. If you actually get in to AI, you'll probably want 2 squadrons (to make it easier to find games, being a specialist game buying 1 squadron may just see it sitting on the shelf). Then in those squadrons you'll probably want 2 boxes worth of fighters, 1 box of bombers, and 1 of transports so that you can play a range of mission types (though some races there'll be overlap between bombers and transports, others they'll be separate, others you might be wanting even more variety). Then maybe buy some ground defences, then do you need to buy the race specific cards (not sure if all the aircraft rules are in the books or do they need to be bought separate?). Then if you don't get the starter set you might also need the tokens and a game board (given the board that comes in the box is only a poster you might want to buy one either way).
It's going to add up quickly for folk who want to play more than a couple of intro games.
So the initial buy in isn't terrible, but if you want to really get in to it rather than just playing a few games then shelving it, it's going to get expensive fast.
You could just buy Wings of Vengeance and call it a day if you wanted I suppose, but old AI I built up 4 races worth of squadrons by the end (some of which were large squadrons where I had options of what I'd lay down, others were just small fighter groups for the sake of variety and/or having something my friends could use to play with). Doing that in new AI looks like it'll put a bigger dent in the wallet than the FW options.
Blood Bowl is a game of 11 football players.
The "large squadron" that you want is close to apocalypse level of unit in a normal 40k game, each of those aircraft kit is equal to a normal bloodbowl team in term of sprue count/size. Of course they will be more expensive than an AI squadron made in resin from 20 years ago.
Now this would be a valid price complain if GW made these aircrafts in a few pieces like they did many years ago with epic kit, pack in tiny sprue and sell them at the same price.
Mr_Rose wrote: Thing is, they reckon 10 to 12 models/side is a 2-3 hr game. I’m pretty sure you don’t need much more than that for a force, especially if you invest in magnetising the ordnance. That’s one box of dakkajets and one of fighta-bommers, maybe with a box of ‘eavy bommers when they come out.
I don't know how easy it'll be to magnetise those weapons, they're pretty small. In the old AI days I never bothered modelling the ordnance like missiles and bombs, too mission dependent, just make up some counters/markers to put on the model's bases to know what bombs and missiles it has on board.
You might only *need* a box or two of models to play *a* game, but it's not like Blood Bowl where once you have a team you'll be done. If you actually get in to AI, you'll probably want 2 squadrons (to make it easier to find games, being a specialist game buying 1 squadron may just see it sitting on the shelf). Then in those squadrons you'll probably want 2 boxes worth of fighters, 1 box of bombers, and 1 of transports so that you can play a range of mission types (though some races there'll be overlap between bombers and transports, others they'll be separate, others you might be wanting even more variety). Then maybe buy some ground defences, then do you need to buy the race specific cards (not sure if all the aircraft rules are in the books or do they need to be bought separate?). Then if you don't get the starter set you might also need the tokens and a game board (given the board that comes in the box is only a poster you might want to buy one either way).
It's going to add up quickly for folk who want to play more than a couple of intro games.
So the initial buy in isn't terrible, but if you want to really get in to it rather than just playing a few games then shelving it, it's going to get expensive fast.
You could just buy Wings of Vengeance and call it a day if you wanted I suppose, but old AI I built up 4 races worth of squadrons by the end (some of which were large squadrons where I had options of what I'd lay down, others were just small fighter groups for the sake of variety and/or having something my friends could use to play with). Doing that in new AI looks like it'll put a bigger dent in the wallet than the FW options.
Blood Bowl is a game of 11 football players.
The "large squadron" that you want is close to apocalypse level of unit in a normal 40k game, each of those aircraft kit is equal to a normal bloodbowl team in term of sprue count/size. Of course they will be more expensive than an AI squadron made in resin from 20 years ago.
Now this would be a valid price complain if GW made these aircrafts in a few pieces like they did many years ago with epic kit, pack in tiny sprue and sell them at the same price.
I don't know what the relevance of being "apocalypse level of unit in a normal 40k game" has to do anything, we're not talking about a normal 40k game.
I should say I don't specifically think they're expensive compared to FW, I just used that as an example, rather I just think it's expensive. That's it. I think they're expensive. Whether talking on a per sprue basis ($35AUD per sprue) or on a total cost to build a force basis ($280 to $350AUD for a squadron that can play multiple mission types), it's expensive. I only mentioned FW as a reference point as most people consider FW to be on the upper end of price.
I think saying the kits are a bit more complicated is a cop out, the cost should be partway reflective of the complexity of the kits, the actual model count and what a player is likely going to buy to complete their force/team/squadron/whatever.
BB is crap value on a per sprue basis, so comparing AI kit prices to BB kit prices on a per sprue basis I'd say both are overpriced, but you get 12 players and a full team which makes it good value in the context of the game and a reasonable price IMO, whereas AI you might technically be able to play a game with 1 box of models but realistically if you're going to get in to the game you're going to end up with more like 3 to 5 kits worth of models per squadron you're likely to collect.
On the other extreme if you had a game that only needed 1 kit with 1 big sprue worth of bits to make 1 model, but that was likely all you were going to buy, making the cost per sprue large is a reasonable way to go.
CptJake wrote: Do we know how big the hexes are? I have plenty of hex maps from the recent Steve Jackson Games releases for OGRE.
2", which is I think way too large for the Ogre Battlefields kickstarter that I was a backer of. I can check later today.
I just measured, my Ogre maps have 1.5 inch (side to side) hexes. Darn, I was really hoping to use those.
Given the rules are pretty similar to the original AI, you could really play this game without the hex map, they're just needed for the manoeuvres really. That's probably what I'll end up doing so I can play on a 6x4 table.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: [quote=Chopstick 778581 10556764 null I think saying the kits are a bit more complicated is a cop out, the cost should be partway reflective of the complexity of the kits, the actual model count and what a player is likely going to buy to complete their force/team/squadron/whatever.
BB is crap value on a per sprue basis, so comparing AI kit prices to BB kit prices on a per sprue basis I'd say both are overpriced, but you get 12 players and a full team which makes it good value in the context of the game and a reasonable price IMO, whereas AI you might technically be able to play a game with 1 box of models but realistically if you're going to get in to the game you're going to end up with more like 3 to 5 kits worth of models per squadron you're likely to collect.
On the other extreme if you had a game that only needed 1 kit with 1 big sprue worth of bits to make 1 model, but that was likely all you were going to buy, making the cost per sprue large is a reasonable way to go.
Again you are comparing a game of 11 football player to another game (AI/Epic) with no upper limit, and the limit that you set is equal to a very large /apocalypse level battle. You expecting 2 completely different games to have the same upper limit is unrealistic, a more fair comparison is a game with similarly very high/no upper limit, like 40k, or AT.
What are the "per sprue basic price" are you comparing too, because I'm comparing them to 2017-2019 GW price and they seem about on par with 2017-2018 GW price. I don't count models to determine price, I based them on how much effort and resource was put into the kit. I'd rather buy squad of 10-dude on 3 sprue than a squad 20 monopose one with 10 each on a duplicate sprue, for the same price.
I'll probably just order the book, the Thunderbolts, the Destroyers, and the bigger map in a couple of hours. This stuff will be sold through Amazon for 10% off in a couple of weeks so I'll load up then.
I'm actually thinking 2 starters and skip the Rynn mat.
A second starter costs about as much as a pair or Marauders and the Rynn mat and gives you the same surface area when combining two basic mats (tho oblong rather than square, obviously) and a lot of free planes on top of those two Marauders.
Plus you don't get the bad feels of the basic mat being replaced outright by day 1 DLC.
Chopstick wrote: ...and the limit that you set is equal to a very large /apocalypse level battle.
And again I don't see how this has any relevance to anything, AI isn't normal 40k.
The limit I set is what I think someone who reasonably wants to play a broad range of missions might buy. It's somewhat arbitrary but based on what I think is realistic given how the game (AI) functions, not how a completely unrelated game (40k/apocalypse) functions.
A couple of boxes of fighters for a decent sized dogfight mission.
A box or so of bombers for ground attack / defence missions.
A box or so of transport aircraft for troop drop / close support missions.
It also doesn't end up being a terribly large number of models, probably 12ish.
I don't count models to determine price, I based them on how much effort and resource was put into the kit.
To me it's a balance, no one factor is reasonable to determine price. The number of sprues, the number of models those sprues make, the number of models you are likely going to need to buy to make a force / team / army / whatever. All those things factor in to it.
I reckon $35AUD for a sprue that doesn't look terribly large is a lot ask, maybe you can find other models (particularly GW models) where that is not the worst, but in general if I were buying sprues for the sake of sprues I'd say $35AUD for a sprue is bad.
But I don't just look at sprue count / size. Otherwise I'd say BB is poor value, when I actually think it's good value.
I reckon $70AUD for 4 fighters or 2 bombers at that scale is a lot to ask.
But I don't just look at model count per dollar. Otherwise I'd say most character models (whether GW or otherwise) would be terrible value, but many are quite good value IMO.
I reckon $280-350AUD for a single squadron of decent size relative to the rules of the game is quite expensive, especially given that doesn't include accessories required to play the game and given the nature of the game is such that folk might want multiple squadrons.
But I don't just look at the total cost of a force. There are many games out there that end up with a bigger blow to the wallet than that.
It's on balance of those factors that I think AI is expensive.
I already conceded in a previous post that if you're just looking to scratch the surface of the game with 1 small squadron and / or be content with the starter set, then I don't think it's terrible value. But in my experience that's not how AI is built to work, it's more suited to building up an inventory of 10 to 20 models or more from multiple races that allow you to play more mission types, have more varied gameplay, play against folk who themselves haven't bought in to the game, and have some cool models to stick in the display case.
I think we've chatted enough on price at this point, I've made it pretty clear how and why *I* think it's on the expensive side, I'm not trying to change opinions of people who don't think the same way, just expressing my views on it. Also it's not like it's out of my budget, I'm definitely buying in to it, I spent hundreds on the previous AI game, the only question is how deep I buy in, and if it were maybe a bit better value I could see myself collecting a large chunk of the range.
Chopstick wrote: ...and the limit that you set is equal to a very large /apocalypse level battle.
And again I don't see how this has any relevance to anything, AI isn't normal 40k.
The limit I set is what I think someone who reasonably wants to play a broad range of missions might buy. It's somewhat arbitrary but based on what I think is realistic given how the game (AI) functions, not how a completely unrelated game (40k/apocalypse) functions.
A couple of boxes of fighters for a decent sized dogfight mission.
A box or so of bombers for ground attack / defence missions.
A box or so of transport aircraft for troop drop / close support missions.
It also doesn't end up being a terribly large number of models, probably 12ish.
Comparing AI to 40k is more fair than comparing it to Blood Bowl, which you can only field 11 guy, and some in the reserve, Blood Bowl didn't have apocalypse battle with 100 players on the field, There are no limit for both AI and 40k. 11 players in Blood bowl isn't the equivalent of 11 aircrafts.
2 boxes of Fighter and 1 box of bomber is 250+ points, probably some of the largest alternative force battle in old AI that you can fight, and you want even bigger force? Only Narrative Force in big scenario are bigger than that.
Chopstick wrote: ...and the limit that you set is equal to a very large /apocalypse level battle.
And again I don't see how this has any relevance to anything, AI isn't normal 40k.
The limit I set is what I think someone who reasonably wants to play a broad range of missions might buy. It's somewhat arbitrary but based on what I think is realistic given how the game (AI) functions, not how a completely unrelated game (40k/apocalypse) functions.
A couple of boxes of fighters for a decent sized dogfight mission.
A box or so of bombers for ground attack / defence missions.
A box or so of transport aircraft for troop drop / close support missions.
It also doesn't end up being a terribly large number of models, probably 12ish.
Comparing AI to 40k is more fair than comparing it to Blood Bowl, which you can only field 11 guy, and some in the reserve, Blood Bowl didn't have apocalypse battle with 100 players on the field, There are no limit for both AI and 40k. 11 players in Blood bowl isn't the equivalent of 11 aircrafts.
2 boxes of Fighter and 1 box of bomber is 250+ points, probably some of the largest alternative force battle in old AI that you can fight, and you want even bigger force? Only Narrative Force in big scenario are bigger than that.
Honestly I don't get why you're bringing up apocalypse games at all, if you had a point it's completely gone over my head It's at a completely different scale, like, literally. Just because 6 aircraft is a lot in 40k doesn't mean anything to AI, the same way Warlord Titan in 40k being rare means anything to AT, or the same way the non-existence of Imperial Cruisers in 40k means anything to BFG.
From memory the largest scenarios in the old AI were 300pts, but you still managed to miss my point that different scenarios require different aircraft, you don't have a one size fits all squadron. My saying if you actually want to get in to AI you'll probably want 3 to 5 boxes per squadron you want to build up doesn't mean I'm suggesting you need to put down 3 to 5 boxes worth of models in each and every game you play and just smoosh them against your opponent's 3 to 5 boxes of models.
It's not really like 40k where you build a X point army, take that X point army to a game, place all X points down on the table and mash them up against the X points of models your opponent bought.
Isn't this argument futile? If Mr Skink thinks it is too pricey he need not buy into the game, If Chopstick thinks the game is acceptable let him buy it as Allseeingskink has said he is just telling us his view, it is neither right or wrong.
Bschwi1 wrote: Isn't this argument futile? If Mr Skink thinks it is too pricey he need not buy into the game, If Chopstick thinks the game is acceptable let him buy it as Allseeingskink has said he is just telling us his view, it is neither right or wrong.
The reason I posted again in spite of saying there wasn't much point continuing the conversation is the last couple of posts shifted away from price and toward how large a squadron someone is likely to buy, which is a (mildly) interesting discussion in its own right.
I actually really want AI to do well, I think it's one of the best aerial combat games around and I hope it becomes popular, I wish Blood Red Skies used a rules system similar to AI. The emphasis on outmanoeuvring your opponent without either oversimplifying it to the point it doesn't look like air combat but also not going in to such excruciating detail that it becomes an academic exercise is what makes AI a good game.
At least GW are advertising it this time, when FW did AI I didn't even know it existed until not long before it died.
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pancakeonions wrote: The preorders look like they're up for the UK, and I see a box of two Imperial Marauder Destroyers, and a box of two Imperial Marauder Bombers.
Are those the exact same kits, built differently (i.e., someone with patience might magnetize 'em to make both), or are they really different kits?
Or maybe we don't know yet?
There's a common sprue that makes up the fuselage and wings, but the armaments sprue is different for the two variants.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I actually really want AI to do well, I think it's one of the best aerial combat games around and I hope it becomes popular, I wish Blood Red Skies used a rules system similar to AI. The emphasis on outmanoeuvring your opponent without either oversimplifying it to the point it doesn't look like air combat but also not going in to such excruciating detail that it becomes an academic exercise is what makes AI a good game.
Oh yeah. Blood Red Sky goes waaaaay over the top when it comes to simplifying air combat. Doesn't make it enough of an interesting game unfortunately.
And speaking of other aircraft games, both Bag the Hun and Check Your 6! (which ranges from WWII to Modern aircraft) use hexes, so there's a couple example of good rules that use hexes to simulate air combat. It also means that it's probably best to get bigger play areas unless they've crunched the unit movement down to work in smaller sized game boards.
The only thing that isn’t good about the starter box is the “mat” which is a simple fold-out paper. It isn’t even cardboard or thick paper, just paper. Big shame here GW.
So hopefully there will be third party AI mats available soon because I will definitely look to upgrade asap.
TBD wrote: The only thing that isn’t good about the starter box is the “mat” which is a simple fold-out paper. It isn’t even cardboard or thick paper, just paper. Big shame here GW.
So hopefully there will be third party AI mats available soon because I will definitely look to upgrade asap.
You aware that GW do have a cardboard board sold separately right?
Honestly I think GW has done thie starting set differently to get the cost down a lot; probably because in the end the model count is quite low as well. So I suspect they didn't want to make the box too expensive that gamers felt they weren't getting enough "models" for the table.
£55 from GW and cheaper from 3rd parties to get started with the whole game and have two airforces in that price is a great deal to get started in the game. It's well into the bracket of prices where it might be a getting started set from a regular army or a large model .So it fits into budgets far more easily than, say, a £100 set which is starting to get into serious money.
I think GW knew that AI would be a harder-sell than games like Necromunda or AT.
I get the feeling that GW are going to repeat the Necromunda release pattern. The rule book in the box only has fleet listings for the models in the box. The book that is sold separately has the full Imperial and Ork fleet lists.
So, when they release the other fleets each will no doubt have a separate book for their fleet.
Then once all fleets are released a full book. Annoying, but at least we are getting AI.
Also have to laugh at the price conversion, £55 does not convert to €70... It converts to €60, nice that GW have slapped on an extra €10.
A second starter costs about as much as a pair or Marauders and the Rynn mat and gives you the same surface area when combining two basic mats (tho oblong rather than square, obviously) and a lot of free planes on top of those two Marauders.
Plus you don't get the bad feels of the basic mat being replaced outright by day 1 DLC.
So wait, is the starter box board the same as the Rynn's World board, just cropped down smaller? Like the same image?
A second starter costs about as much as a pair or Marauders and the Rynn mat and gives you the same surface area when combining two basic mats (tho oblong rather than square, obviously) and a lot of free planes on top of those two Marauders.
Plus you don't get the bad feels of the basic mat being replaced outright by day 1 DLC.
So wait, is the starter box board the same as the Rynn's World board, just cropped down smaller? Like the same image?
No, they came with paper board. Watch the unboxing video.
Do the cards come with unique rules or are they just for handy reference? I read the description of what's in them but I wasn't sure if the same content would be in the books. If they are the only way to get some of the rules then that's going to be the only disappointing part of this release so far for me.
Edit: Looks like the stuff on the cards is in the Rynn's World book thankfully, so I'll be skipping the cards.
A second starter costs about as much as a pair or Marauders and the Rynn mat and gives you the same surface area when combining two basic mats (tho oblong rather than square, obviously) and a lot of free planes on top of those two Marauders.
Plus you don't get the bad feels of the basic mat being replaced outright by day 1 DLC.
So wait, is the starter box board the same as the Rynn's World board, just cropped down smaller? Like the same image?
No, they came with paper board. Watch the unboxing video.
Thatnks, I had watched the unboxing video and knew that it was a paper mat, but I wasn't sure if it was a different image on the mat as they both appear to have a city side and a desert side. It looks like the paper one has something burning in the desert, while I don't see that on the Rynn's World image so I guess at least one side is different.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote: I'm trying to add up the contents of the really big bundle to see if there's any savings. I'm guessing there's not, right?
GW "bundles" are just for the convenience of not tiring out your index finger when adding items to their cart. There's never any savings.
I mean, maybe I misspoke when it came to "bundle" but they certainly do releases that have significant discounts sometimes. This one doesn't appear to be one of those.
stonehorse wrote: Also have to laugh at the price conversion, £55 does not convert to €70... It converts to €60, nice that GW have slapped on an extra €10.
The US is facing a similar problem - £55 by today’s conversion is a paltry $67 approx, compared to a $90.00 MSRP. I try to tell myself it costs something to get it across the ocean, but I think they’re just Brexit-proofing things, getting us used to paying something completely different depending on the country it’s bought in.
I agree on the Necromunda problem - if I buy now they’ll just release book after book of supplemental material. Then, if I buy all of that, they’ll put it in a compendium. I won’t need it, except if Necromunda is any example, things will change between first book and compendium... meaning, I’m better if I just wait a few years and join during the compendium phase... by which time the game might be discontinued...
stonehorse wrote: Also have to laugh at the price conversion, £55 does not convert to €70... It converts to €60, nice that GW have slapped on an extra €10.
The US is facing a similar problem - £55 by today’s conversion is a paltry $67 approx, compared to a $90.00 MSRP. I try to tell myself it costs something to get it across the ocean, but I think they’re just Brexit-proofing things, getting us used to paying something completely different depending on the country it’s bought in.
I agree on the Necromunda problem - if I buy now they’ll just release book after book of supplemental material. Then, if I buy all of that, they’ll put it in a compendium. I won’t need it, except if Necromunda is any example, things will change between first book and compendium... meaning, I’m better if I just wait a few years and join during the compendium phase... by which time the game might be discontinued...
If I order from Wayland Games (in the UK), I can get the Rynn World Campaign book for $23 instead of $35, the $40 boxes for $25, and the $42 battleboard for $27. If I order enough, I get free shipping. The only downside is waiting for the oversea delivery, but that's just the eternal time vs money question.
stonehorse wrote: Also have to laugh at the price conversion, £55 does not convert to €70... It converts to €60, nice that GW have slapped on an extra €10.
The US is facing a similar problem - £55 by today’s conversion is a paltry $67 approx, compared to a $90.00 MSRP. I try to tell myself it costs something to get it across the ocean, but I think they’re just Brexit-proofing things, getting us used to paying something completely different depending on the country it’s bought in.
I agree on the Necromunda problem - if I buy now they’ll just release book after book of supplemental material. Then, if I buy all of that, they’ll put it in a compendium. I won’t need it, except if Necromunda is any example, things will change between first book and compendium... meaning, I’m better if I just wait a few years and join during the compendium phase... by which time the game might be discontinued...
If I order from Wayland Games (in the UK), I can get the Rynn World Campaign book for $23 instead of $35, the $40 boxes for $25, and the $42 battleboard for $27. If I order enough, I get free shipping. The only downside is waiting for the oversea delivery, but that's just the eternal time vs money question.
TBD wrote: The only thing that isn’t good about the starter box is the “mat” which is a simple fold-out paper. It isn’t even cardboard or thick paper, just paper. Big shame here GW.
So hopefully there will be third party AI mats available soon because I will definitely look to upgrade asap.
You aware that GW do have a cardboard board sold separately right?
Spoiler:
Yes I know.
Very clever of them to put garbage quality ones in the starter box that they know will be dropping like flies all over the place within a week and have a (hopefully) better version for sale separately instead of putting those in the starter like they should have to begin with for a slightly higher price.
What will happen now is that people mess up their flimsy paper board when the cat sneezes at it and the thicker ones will be out of stock so they won’t even be able to play the game at all
Balls! When did that change? I remember ordering from them a few years back.
Just give it a week or two and you'll be able to order from Amazon. I got some Imperial planes, the book, and the map since the starter set is pretty lame. I'll get orks once I finish my Imperials.
Plus you don't get the bad feels of the basic mat being replaced outright by day 1 DLC.
So wait, is the starter box board the same as the Rynn's World board, just cropped down smaller? Like the same image?
No. You can see that from the product images on the website. In addition, the placement of "objective hexes" appears to be different on all four maps. Also, you can use the buildings on the city maps to calculate the difference in ground scale between AI and AT, for a hex-t-inches conversion so you can play on the same scenery as you use for AT. You'd probably want longer (much longer) flying stands though.
Plus you don't get the bad feels of the basic mat being replaced outright by day 1 DLC.
So wait, is the starter box board the same as the Rynn's World board, just cropped down smaller? Like the same image?
No. You can see that from the product images on the website. In addition, the placement of "objective hexes" appears to be different on all four maps. Also, you can use the buildings on the city maps to calculate the difference in ground scale between AI and AT, for a hex-t-inches conversion so you can play on the same scenery as you use for AT. You'd probably want longer (much longer) flying stands though.
Awesome. I'm pre-ordering the Rynn's World board then.
In the future I'll probably buy one of the clear hex mats someone suggested previously an/or make my own tiles, but it will be nice to have a full 3'x3' to start playing on quickly.
Plus you don't get the bad feels of the basic mat being replaced outright by day 1 DLC.
So wait, is the starter box board the same as the Rynn's World board, just cropped down smaller? Like the same image?
No. You can see that from the product images on the website. In addition, the placement of "objective hexes" appears to be different on all four maps. Also, you can use the buildings on the city maps to calculate the difference in ground scale between AI and AT, for a hex-t-inches conversion so you can play on the same scenery as you use for AT. You'd probably want longer (much longer) flying stands though.
It would be pretty cool to have a sheet of plexiglass with hexes engraved for AI standing say a foot or two above above an AT game.
We’ll have to see what if any rules GW comes up with for playing AT alongside AI. The rules are on different time scales, old school epic (and several war games even now) treat aircraft as just doing an attacks run that lasts one turn of the game, which makes sense when you consider the planes are probably travelling a kilometre or so in 5 seconds. You could maybe play a game of AI above AT but I feel like the AI ranges would probably have to be doubled and / or play multiple turns of AI to one turn of AT.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: We’ll have to see what if any rules GW comes up with for playing AT alongside AI. The rules are on different time scales, old school epic (and several war games even now) treat aircraft as just doing an attacks run that lasts one turn of the game, which makes sense when you consider the planes are probably travelling a kilometre or so in 5 seconds. You could maybe play a game of AI above AT but I feel like the AI ranges would probably have to be doubled and / or play multiple turns of AI to one turn of AT.
The way it was done previously was that the aircraft would appear one to turn to either do a bombing run, transport mission or Combat Air Patrol to intercept any craft. After they’d done their actions, they’d fly off the board for the next turn. During the turn AA weapons only would have a chance to shoot.
I can see a new dimension to AT in that you buy your air wing and you’d issue orders to them as part of he usual turn wherein they’d appear for that turn to carry out their orders. I can see targeting AA assets like Icarus autocannons/rocket pod knights, Warbringer titans and Acastus Knights with Helios missiles as a precursor to launching a bomber attack on an unshielded Titan.
Just checked it out in a local store, models are bigger than I had in my mind, they look nice (though less detailed than the old FW resin ones as you might expect).
I’m a bit torn on what to get. I think you’re going to want the campaign expansion as the boxed set doesn’t have any scenarios and it only has te rules for the models in the box (ie not the Bommers that will be coming out soon).
The box is nice in that you get two squadrons, but those squadrons are a bit thin and probably need expansion.
Also the map in the boxed set is a bit too small.
If the boxed set had 4 thunderbolts and 6 dakkajets (even if it cost a bit more) it’d be a no brainer. But as it is I’m thinking this might be a better buy in...
Campaign book
3rd party hex mat
1 thunderbolt box
1 marauder box
1 dakkajet box
1 fighter bommer box
1 set of tokens
Not sure. Could also just buy 2 starter sets but probably still want the 3rd party mat and campaign book.
EDIT: After adding up the prices 2 starter sets is better value. Maybe I’ll just grab 1 starter set first and see how it goes.
After playing an intro game, it’s not bad, planes in general are more manoeuvrable than the old version of AI meaning you don’t have to think as far ahead anymore, but not necessarily in a bad way.
It’s a shame the scale increased, as it feels a bit cramped. I think it’s work better if the board was the same size but the hexes a bit smaller so that you have more of them and more space for the aircraft.
It looks like (for better or worse) the Marauder Destroyer is actually going to end up being a good fighter plane. It can only do the first 3 manoeuvres, but that's probably all it needs to frequently get enemy planes in its sights.
NivlacSupreme wrote: It’s nice to see that the inconsistency in Phantine ranks is still alive. Unless those guys are Navy, which is just even more fun.
RiTides wrote: What items have rules for the upcoming releases (Eavy Bommers, etc)?
Starter set rulebook?
Rynn's World campaign book?
Card sets?
All of the above?
I'm leaning towards 2 x starters now, and seeing what else I need / can skip... Could also circle back when those airships actually release but not sure about availability.
The starter set does not.
Looks like Rynn's World does.
The cards probably do (given we've seen a card earlier which had the Bommer profile on it). But there'll likely be some rules (like how Grot Bombs work) that aren't spelled out on the cards.
I think you'll be wanting Rynn's World book if you intend to play more than starter games. It comes with the full rules, including stuff that's not in the starter set, and also contains the scenarios.
There's no scenarios in the starter set, also the map in the starter set is quite small (about 2.5x2.5 foot).
Rynn's World is more reminisce of the old Forge World Aeronautica Imperialis book, with rules, fluff, scenarios, pictures and all that jazz.
To me, Rynn's World is the "must have" of this release, you can skip the rest and just buy Rynn's world and some fighters and get stuck in to it (you could even forgo the hex board if you wanted, or grab a 3rd party one).
That said I don't think the starter set is a bad buy, particularly if you're just wanting to try it out to see if you like the game, at least in Oz the starter set isn't much more expensive than 2 x boxes of aircraft. But if you try it out and decide you want to take it further, I think Rynn's World is going to be the thing to buy.
Personally I decided to grab the starter set for now as I figure it'd be good to have a small force of both Imperials and Orks to introduce my friends to it.
SamusDrake wrote: Was just wondering about the speed and altitude values on the bases. Does anyone know their highest values?
In the game speed aircraft can go up to 9 and altitude up to 5. If you mean what's actually printed on the bases, I didn't think to check what the numbers on the base themselves went up to, the old bases went up to 9 and 9 but maybe these ones are different.
I got the ground installation kit and cards from GW, the starter set and a box of Thunderbolts from Amazon (at a discount, but those were the only items they had listed). I'll pick up more planes and the Rynn's World book when I can get them at a discount.
NivlacSupreme wrote: It’s nice to see that the inconsistency in Phantine ranks is still alive. Unless those guys are Navy, which is just even more fun.
What?
The Phantine Air Corps have never had a consistent portrayal of their rank structure. Sometimes they have pilot officers and flight lieutenants, other times they have majors. Of course, there’s also the explanation that it varies in universe as the various sub-units don’t talk. One of the special guys I’ve seen is a flight lieutenant and the other is a “flight commander”.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: In the game speed aircraft can go up to 9 and altitude up to 5. If you mean what's actually printed on the bases, I didn't think to check what the numbers on the base themselves went up to, the old bases went up to 9 and 9 but maybe these ones are different.
BrookM wrote: The Phantine are not Navy, but rather part of Guard, hence their unique rank structure.
I am aware of that, but they’re internally inconsistent. Sometimes they follow Commonwealth air force ranks and sometimes they don’t. I’m going to stop talking about it. It’s actually kind of neat having them be inconsistent, as it shows the disparity in large organisations in a universe as vast as 40k.
Its not a big deal but I'm surprised the assets are in a dual set of both Imperial & Ork.
It makes sense as a "Rynns world" set to kick things off to save money in that sense, but just wondering about further factions down the road. For example, if one is only concered with collecting the Eldar range, does this mean they will be buying an asset pack that might be Eldar and Tau? Or Eldar and Chaos? Could they not just get the eldar part on its own?
I really think that they should either sell the rules individually or all as one book. If the next one was Orks, Imperium, Elder, and Tau then I’d be fine with that.
SamusDrake wrote: Its not a big deal but I'm surprised the assets are in a dual set of both Imperial & Ork.
It makes sense as a "Rynns world" set to kick things off to save money in that sense, but just wondering about further factions down the road. For example, if one is only concered with collecting the Eldar range, does this mean they will be buying an asset pack that might be Eldar and Tau? Or Eldar and Chaos? Could they not just get the eldar part on its own?
Or they just made them in smaller sprue for a single faction. Elder and Tau both use Agrav vehicle as their ground support unit so maybe they would get a pair release. And probably alongside some new turret too.
SamusDrake wrote: Its not a big deal but I'm surprised the assets are in a dual set of both Imperial & Ork.
It makes sense as a "Rynns world" set to kick things off to save money in that sense, but just wondering about further factions down the road. For example, if one is only concered with collecting the Eldar range, does this mean they will be buying an asset pack that might be Eldar and Tau? Or Eldar and Chaos? Could they not just get the eldar part on its own?
Or they just made them in smaller sprue for a single faction. Elder and Tau both use Agrav vehicle as their ground support unit so maybe they would get a pair release. And probably alongside some new turret too.
So are you thinking they're going to include "skimmer" vehicles like Falcons and Devilfish?
I ended up going with all the Ork and Rynn's World stuff, but no starter. Hoping to snag someone's extra ork planes from the starter too, if anyone only wants to keep their imperial side
The fluff article mentions Eldar hemlock whatsesnames and crimson whosesfaces. I hope they release the nightwings as the newer plastic GW eldar flyers never appealed to me.
The story in the article is one of the three campaigns they released during Stormcloud Attack, released by GW itself back then, so it makes sense that they'd only refer to their own plastic flyers.
But never say never, GW did use the FW design for the Fighta Bomma and the Eavy Bomma is also looking like a mostly direct copy of the classic FW design.
We may see the Nightwing and Phoenix yet, but it could also be a case of GW sticking to their newer plastics as the template for the Aeldari.
The Vampire/batman series of Eldar aircrafts is pilotted by outcast/non-parth Eldar while the GW-one is an aspect pilot, fewer in number, and would completely fall out of line when replacing the Nightwing and put alongsude other vampire aircrafts.
Dakkajet and Attack Fighta both armed with 4 shoota, the only different is Fighta can take rokkit and bombs, while 40k Dakkajet can't. So technically speaking the Dakkajet in AI that can take Rokkit and bombs is a Fighta in dakkajet skin.
Chopstick wrote: The Vampire/batman series of Eldar aircrafts is pilotted by outcast/non-parth Eldar while the GW-one is an aspect pilot, fewer in number, and would completely fall out of line when replacing the Nightwing and put alongsude other vampire aircrafts.
Dakkajet and Attack Fighta both armed with 4 shoota, the only different is Fighta can take rokkit and bombs, while 40k Dakkajet can't. So technically speaking the Dakkajet in AI that can take Rokkit and bombs is a Fighta in dakkajet skin.
I'm not really familiar with recent Eldar fluff, the Nightwing used to be the both the primary eldar and also in general the best air superiority aircraft going around.
It always baffled and disappointed me when the Crimson Hunter came out - it seemed to fill the same role as the Nightwing but aesthetically (to me at least) it looks more like a toy. It would have been nicer if GW just plasticised and updated the Nightwing instead of introducing a new thing.
Not sure how they're going to make room for both in AI.
Chopstick wrote: The Vampire/batman series of Eldar aircrafts is pilotted by outcast/non-parth Eldar while the GW-one is an aspect pilot, fewer in number, and would completely fall out of line when replacing the Nightwing and put alongsude other vampire aircrafts.
Dakkajet and Attack Fighta both armed with 4 shoota, the only different is Fighta can take rokkit and bombs, while 40k Dakkajet can't. So technically speaking the Dakkajet in AI that can take Rokkit and bombs is a Fighta in dakkajet skin.
The craft worlds use Nightwings as their main fighter with the Phoenix as their bomber (which was still faster and more manoeuvrable then other fighters). The vampires are their support heavy ground landers and hunters.
The original aeronautica used all of these as the eldar's fleet options. They were also the main airforce of the Eldar in EPIC throughout all editions.
The crimson Hunter is a completely separate fighter only just added to their options.
At least the Eldar now have more options in flyers - the imperium had more than twice as many options in the original AI.
Chopstick wrote: The Vampire/batman series of Eldar aircrafts is pilotted by outcast/non-parth Eldar while the GW-one is an aspect pilot, fewer in number, and would completely fall out of line when replacing the Nightwing and put alongsude other vampire aircrafts.
Dakkajet and Attack Fighta both armed with 4 shoota, the only different is Fighta can take rokkit and bombs, while 40k Dakkajet can't. So technically speaking the Dakkajet in AI that can take Rokkit and bombs is a Fighta in dakkajet skin.
The craft worlds use Nightwings as their main fighter with the Phoenix as their bomber (which was still faster and more manoeuvrable then other fighters). The vampires are their support heavy ground landers and hunters.
The original aeronautica used all of these as the eldar's fleet options. They were also the main airforce of the Eldar in EPIC throughout all editions.
The crimson Hunter is a completely separate fighter only just added to their options.
At least the Eldar now have more options in flyers - the imperium had more than twice as many options in the original AI.
The Eldar aircraft were so high end it didn't really bother me that they didn't have many options, seemed more like Eldar put the effort in to make good aircraft so they wouldn't need a lot of different fighters and bombers to fill only subtly different roles.
Nightwings were sleek looking machines and I found them fun to paint, here's my Nightwing squadron from the first game...
I'm not really familiar with recent Eldar fluff, the Nightwing used to be the both the primary eldar and also in general the best air superiority aircraft going around.
It always baffled and disappointed me when the Crimson Hunter came out - it seemed to fill the same role as the Nightwing but aesthetically (to me at least) it looks more like a toy. It would have been nicer if GW just plasticised and updated the Nightwing instead of introducing a new thing.
Not sure how they're going to make room for both in AI.
The craft worlds use Nightwings as their main fighter with the Phoenix as their bomber (which was still faster and more manoeuvrable then other fighters). The vampires are their support heavy ground landers and hunters.
The original aeronautica used all of these as the eldar's fleet options. They were also the main airforce of the Eldar in EPIC throughout all editions.
The crimson Hunter is a completely separate fighter only just added to their options.
Hemlock Wraithfighter and Crimson Hunter are piloted by Aspect warrior, in contrast to non-path/outcast that pilot the other aircraft, thus they're better pilots but are a lot more rare and couldn't be a mainstay fighter in an Eldar air force.
But why have different air superiority aircraft just for the sake of having different pilots in them? Why not just have the Nightwing and say there’s an aspect warrior or sprit deer or whatever the hell you want flying it?
The plastic eldar flyers just seem to fill the same role as the nightwing, I reckon when they decided they wanted to make a plastic eldar flyer for whatever reason they didn’t want to retire the nightwing, or maybe the nightwing model was a bit too big to translate to plastic.
It’s like I said somewhere earlier in this thread, I like the idea of new aircraft but only if they have a distinct role from the existing models.
Because real militaries always have only one type of a fighter, amirite?
They do different things. Hemlock for example is a ghost powered flying psychic amplifier.
Besides, the reason for having models is not to fill different combat roles. If they do that as well, that's nice, but their main purpose is to look cool and offer the players different aesthetic options.
Malika2 wrote: They should have just done a plastic Nightwing...
The Forgeworld Nightwing was a design from before GW had really defined the modern Eldar aesthetic. It was born of a time where White Dwarf still had articles on how to turn deodorant containers into grav-tanks and Forgeworld was a smaller boutique operation that also did statues and busts. It's a marked improvement over the old Epic Nightwing design, but not quite in line with the rest of the range.
The Crimson Hunter by contrast looks like it fits better with the later Eldar aircraft from Forgeworld and the newer vehicle kits. It also has nice smooth curves and flowing lines which feel more Eldar than some of the harder edges of Nightwing that lend themselves to Imperial and Chaos styling. It's similar to how the Voss Lightning shares more design elements with Thunderbolt, Marauder, and Avenger than the older Lightning with it's rounded nose.
I would not be upset if in the Eldar release wave of AI, the Nightwing gets replaced by the Crimson Hunter as the main fighter much like the old Ork Fighter got replaced by the Dakkajet.
I also wouldn't mind any retcon that separated the aircraft from the aspect warriors where Crimson Hunters are the aspect and that airframe becomes the new Nightwing. If it's piloted by regular joes, it gets craftworld colors, if it's piloted by Crimson Hunters, it gets Crimson Hunter red, black, and bone. Maybe even expanding Crimson Hunters to the Phoenix and Vampire.
Decided to grab the box & the book - I can make the Ork flyers a wee bit smaller easily enough and they'll still look right because Orks. Flog the Imperials planes and the Ork ones are basically free, and the Rynn's World book should be worth it for the fluff alone even if I find I don't care for the new rules.
meh, the only thing that'd make Crimson Hunter insteresting is giving them better loadout, and maybe missile option. The current one is basically 2 lascannon and rapid fire lascannon.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Just checked it out in a local store, models are bigger than I had in my mind, they look nice (though less detailed than the old FW resin ones as you might expect).
I’m a bit torn on what to get. I think you’re going to want the campaign expansion as the boxed set doesn’t have any scenarios and it only has te rules for the models in the box (ie not the Bommers that will be coming out soon).
The box is nice in that you get two squadrons, but those squadrons are a bit thin and probably need expansion.
Also the map in the boxed set is a bit too small.
If the boxed set had 4 thunderbolts and 6 dakkajets (even if it cost a bit more) it’d be a no brainer. But as it is I’m thinking this might be a better buy in...
Campaign book
3rd party hex mat
1 thunderbolt box
1 marauder box
1 dakkajet box
1 fighter bommer box
1 set of tokens
Not sure. Could also just buy 2 starter sets but probably still want the 3rd party mat and campaign book.
EDIT: After adding up the prices 2 starter sets is better value. Maybe I’ll just grab 1 starter set first and see how it goes.
And then watch it sells out for months and you can't get a second box. At which point the game stalls and falls into obscurity.
Personally I hope they expand air forces somewhat. Some armies, like Necron, have very few options and even Tyranids only have two body types of flying unit.
I prefer the pointed sharp look of the hemlock or crimson hunter so I hope that is like their answer to the dakkajets. I feel it's just more pleasing to the eye. Eldar would make for a great next faction cause they are so sleek next to the bulky metal constructs of orks and the imperium.
I would say that we just got a preview of the first two expansions to the game - campaign books for the Occulam Mistwar (Eldar) and Liberation of Enothis (Chaos).
Given what we've seen thus far, I'd say each will be accompanied by 2 boxed sets.
Crimson wrote: Because real militaries always have only one type of a fighter, amirite?
They do different things. Hemlock for example is a ghost powered flying psychic amplifier.
Besides, the reason for having models is not to fill different combat roles. If they do that as well, that's nice, but their main purpose is to look cool and offer the players different aesthetic options.
Real militaries have multiple types of fighters in the same role largely for reasons not relevant to the Eldar.
Malika2 wrote: They should have just done a plastic Nightwing...
The Forgeworld Nightwing was a design from before GW had really defined the modern Eldar aesthetic. It was born of a time where White Dwarf still had articles on how to turn deodorant containers into grav-tanks and Forgeworld was a smaller boutique operation that also did statues and busts. It's a marked improvement over the old Epic Nightwing design, but not quite in line with the rest of the range.
The Crimson Hunter by contrast looks like it fits better with the later Eldar aircraft from Forgeworld and the newer vehicle kits. It also has nice smooth curves and flowing lines which feel more Eldar than some of the harder edges of Nightwing that lend themselves to Imperial and Chaos styling. It's similar to how the Voss Lightning shares more design elements with Thunderbolt, Marauder, and Avenger than the older Lightning with it's rounded nose.
I would not be upset if in the Eldar release wave of AI, the Nightwing gets replaced by the Crimson Hunter as the main fighter much like the old Ork Fighter got replaced by the Dakkajet.
I also wouldn't mind any retcon that separated the aircraft from the aspect warriors where Crimson Hunters are the aspect and that airframe becomes the new Nightwing. If it's piloted by regular joes, it gets craftworld colors, if it's piloted by Crimson Hunters, it gets Crimson Hunter red, black, and bone. Maybe even expanding Crimson Hunters to the Phoenix and Vampire.
I don't think the Nightwing is quite THAT old.
The Nightwing and Phoenix look self consistent to me as far as aesthetic goes.
When you say "The Crimson Hunter by contrast looks like it fits better with the later Eldar aircraft from Forgeworld and the newer vehicle kits" the only aircraft FW do other than the Nightwing is the Phoenix and the Crimson Hunter/Hemlock Whatsesname is the only Eldar flyer in the regular GW range. As for "newer vehicle kits", the basic aesthetic of those hasn't changed in the time I've been collecting (2nd edition, mid 90's), so it's not like the Eldar vehicles have had some major shift in aesthetic which the Crimson Hunter better fits in with.
And overall I just think the Nightwing looks better. The Crimson Hunter doesn't have satisfying proportions to my eye, from certain angles it looks okay, but while it's certain curvy it's not what I'd describe as sleek. I'm failing at finding a side by side picture but the Crimson Hunter looks a lot smaller and toy like, but maybe it is as big as the Nightwing and just looks smaller.
schoon wrote: I would say that we just got a preview of the first two expansions to the game - campaign books for the Occulam Mistwar (Eldar) and Liberation of Enothis (Chaos).
Given what we've seen thus far, I'd say each will be accompanied by 2 boxed sets.
Rynn World campaign is from a scenario from the ORB, there are some other scenario that could be use as expansion too.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Just checked it out in a local store, models are bigger than I had in my mind, they look nice (though less detailed than the old FW resin ones as you might expect).
Less detailed in what sort of way? I don't have the originals to compare them to myself, but I can't really see any differences between the FW versions in the gallery here and the photos of the new ones.
It's probably really fine details like wires and cables and such. Whilst GW's plastic is really great today it still can't quite get that super-fine detail that resin can achieve.
I also think that some areas have changed as GW has shifted from sculpted to 3D printing masters. You can see it on things like fur where in the past it might be made by straight lines done with a blade, whilst now its more tuft chunks
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Just checked it out in a local store, models are bigger than I had in my mind, they look nice (though less detailed than the old FW resin ones as you might expect).
Less detailed in what sort of way? I don't have the originals to compare them to myself, but I can't really see any differences between the FW versions in the gallery here and the photos of the new ones.
I guess it's more that they've grown without adding more detail, so the detail is less fine and less dense than the originals. When I said they look less detailed I didn't have a FW one in my hand to compare, it's more just when I look at the FW ones I'm blown away by how fine and sharp the detail is and the GW plastic ones didn't strike me as being like that.
Maybe when I get mine next week I'll try and take some close up snaps next to my old FW ones to see how they look.
Overread wrote: It's probably really fine details like wires and cables and such. Whilst GW's plastic is really great today it still can't quite get that super-fine detail that resin can achieve.
I also think that some areas have changed as GW has shifted from sculpted to 3D printing masters. You can see it on things like fur where in the past it might be made by straight lines done with a blade, whilst now its more tuft chunks
They don’t 3D print masters; they print prototypes from the same digital master they use to create the final casting mould. Doesn’t seem like much but it means the final pieces should be dimensionally accurate to the prototypes, so you don’t have to muck about scaling the master to account for shrinkage or inaccuracies created by play in the pantograph joints etc. once you’ve got a result you like.
Malika2 wrote: They should have just done a plastic Nightwing...
The Forgeworld Nightwing was a design from before GW had really defined the modern Eldar aesthetic. It was born of a time where White Dwarf still had articles on how to turn deodorant containers into grav-tanks and Forgeworld was a smaller boutique operation that also did statues and busts. It's a marked improvement over the old Epic Nightwing design, but not quite in line with the rest of the range.
The Crimson Hunter by contrast looks like it fits better with the later Eldar aircraft from Forgeworld and the newer vehicle kits. It also has nice smooth curves and flowing lines which feel more Eldar than some of the harder edges of Nightwing that lend themselves to Imperial and Chaos styling. It's similar to how the Voss Lightning shares more design elements with Thunderbolt, Marauder, and Avenger than the older Lightning with it's rounded nose.
I would not be upset if in the Eldar release wave of AI, the Nightwing gets replaced by the Crimson Hunter as the main fighter much like the old Ork Fighter got replaced by the Dakkajet.
I also wouldn't mind any retcon that separated the aircraft from the aspect warriors where Crimson Hunters are the aspect and that airframe becomes the new Nightwing. If it's piloted by regular joes, it gets craftworld colors, if it's piloted by Crimson Hunters, it gets Crimson Hunter red, black, and bone. Maybe even expanding Crimson Hunters to the Phoenix and Vampire.
I don't think the Nightwing is quite THAT old.
The Nightwing and Phoenix look self consistent to me as far as aesthetic goes.
When you say "The Crimson Hunter by contrast looks like it fits better with the later Eldar aircraft from Forgeworld and the newer vehicle kits" the only aircraft FW do other than the Nightwing is the Phoenix and the Crimson Hunter/Hemlock Whatsesname is the only Eldar flyer in the regular GW range. As for "newer vehicle kits", the basic aesthetic of those hasn't changed in the time I've been collecting (2nd edition, mid 90's), so it's not like the Eldar vehicles have had some major shift in aesthetic which the Crimson Hunter better fits in with.
And overall I just think the Nightwing looks better. The Crimson Hunter doesn't have satisfying proportions to my eye, from certain angles it looks okay, but while it's certain curvy it's not what I'd describe as sleek. I'm failing at finding a side by side picture but the Crimson Hunter looks a lot smaller and toy like, but maybe it is as big as the Nightwing and just looks smaller.
The Nightwing has gone through 3 iterations:
The first was Epic 2nd edition/Titan Legions Nightwing back when the Eldar aesthetic was more organic in shape. The Nightwing was not a recognizable winged aircraft as we humans would understand it:
Then there was the pronged era scaly hulled Eldar aircraft with Epic 40K and this is when the Phoenix was first introduced.
The FW Phoenix took inspiration from the shape of the aircraft during this era, but dropped the scales. FW did a very different shape for the Nightwing compared to its Epic 40K version, and that is the version people are perhaps most familiar with today.
After that there is the newest pair of Eldar aircraft, the Crimson Hunter and Hemlock, which are both a very different shape again from the above two groups.
I suppose one could handwave it in the end as being different schools of design.
I think you'd actually want a completely new Aircraft, or a new Valkirie/Vulture variant.
