Everyone is allowed their own opinion but the maths don't favor Entropy Cannons at all vs Spitters. Firing 2 shots with BS4 (5 if you move!) at only str8 that are NOT plague weapons only to get a d6 damage roll is like the defintion of underwhelming. The comment on out damaging a quad las predator also doesn't seem to mesh with math. Preds hit on BS3 and have str9. They are going to out damage the PBCs against almost all targets you want to be shooting anti tank weapons against.
Agree on the magnetizing so you can swap at your pleasure... Especially when you score about three hits with the E cannons a game
Has anyone done much with PBC rushdown? Start them around a Gnarlmaw with spitters, have a Poxbringer and Horticulous with them, Advance, sow another FG, deathstar up the table
lindsay40k wrote: Has anyone done much with PBC rushdown? Start them around a Gnarlmaw with spitters, have a Poxbringer and Horticulous with them, Advance, sow another FG, deathstar up the table
The PBCs can already advance and fire the spitters. Would you plan to make assaults with them?
Couldn't you run FBDs with Fleshmowers and make some assaults? Or keep them with spitters and skip the FGM unless its serving another purpose.
I like the idea of PBCs, FBDs and such blazing up the middle of the board protecting a couple of princes. It's been a reliable strat for me without even adding in daemons. I imagine adding in Daemon support would make it even better.
Brymm wrote: Everyone is allowed their own opinion but the maths don't favor Entropy Cannons at all vs Spitters. Firing 2 shots with BS4 (5 if you move!) at only str8 that are NOT plague weapons only to get a d6 damage roll is like the defintion of underwhelming. The comment on out damaging a quad las predator also doesn't seem to mesh with math. Preds hit on BS3 and have str9. They are going to out damage the PBCs against almost all targets you want to be shooting anti tank weapons against.
The difference between the spitters and the entropy cannons is that you don't need to move the vehicles to shoot at full power.
And if you are getting closer with those tanks people will just contact them and they'll be useless for one or two turns.
Is much much better to keep them within 36" and shot every single turn they are alive, with every single possible weapon they have until they die.
Plus against a lot of targets S8 or S9 is not a huge difference, but AP-3 or AP-4 it is.
You can't win games or tournaments relying only on math. There are synergies, deployments and movements.
And if you are getting closer with those tanks people will just contact them and they'll be useless for one or two turns.
This is my point - if you’re bringing FGs with you, you can fall back and shoot. Enemy units get hosed down with spitters, you can still fire the mortars whilst advancing, and if they try to charge you it’s just more free hits.
Biggest weakness is against other Chaos. Bloodletter Bomb or Traitor Guard can charge from out of spitter range, then Fiends can tag the PBCs and forbid fall back. So, this gimmick is not a TAC one - unless you adapt and prioritise accordingly
Well burning a detachment is not a huge problem, but you need 85 points for the FG just for the drones...
And most important is, is that really changing having in a list full of flamers, 6 more flamers, or 6 lascannons (or similar) to threaten the enemy tanks even from afar?
Brymm wrote: Everyone is allowed their own opinion but the maths don't favor Entropy Cannons at all vs Spitters. Firing 2 shots with BS4 (5 if you move!) at only str8 that are NOT plague weapons only to get a d6 damage roll is like the defintion of underwhelming. The comment on out damaging a quad las predator also doesn't seem to mesh with math. Preds hit on BS3 and have str9. They are going to out damage the PBCs against almost all targets you want to be shooting anti tank weapons against.
A PBC has an average of 5.5 shots though and the mortar is a plague weapon. Against T7 the PBC is actually better at killing vehicles, against T8 it's slightly worse. The math should be somewhere near the beginning of this thread.
Comparing entropy to the spitter PBC really doesn't make sense at all, because that simple weapon swap turns it into a completely different vehicle - kind of like comparing a defiler to a land raider.
Brymm wrote: Everyone is allowed their own opinion but the maths don't favor Entropy Cannons at all vs Spitters. Firing 2 shots with BS4 (5 if you move!) at only str8 that are NOT plague weapons only to get a d6 damage roll is like the defintion of underwhelming. The comment on out damaging a quad las predator also doesn't seem to mesh with math. Preds hit on BS3 and have str9. They are going to out damage the PBCs against almost all targets you want to be shooting anti tank weapons against.
The difference between the spitters and the entropy cannons is that you don't need to move the vehicles to shoot at full power.
And if you are getting closer with those tanks people will just contact them and they'll be useless for one or two turns.
Is much much better to keep them within 36" and shot every single turn they are alive, with every single possible weapon they have until they die.
Plus against a lot of targets S8 or S9 is not a huge difference, but AP-3 or AP-4 it is.
You can't win games or tournaments relying only on math. There are synergies, deployments and movements.
This game is not "i shoot here and I win!".
This is quite ill informed - almost every tournament list i know of that runs PBC is with flamers....
Master Chief VF wrote: You can't win games or tournaments relying only on math. There are synergies, deployments and movements.
Didn't you just argue for the entropy cannon based on math?
The spitter PBC is without doubt the more powerful version of the two - but it's job is not to kill things (though the spitters are really great weapons), it's job is to deny area and negate units by charging them.
It can tank dedicated close combat units worth many times their points. If your enemy drops a bloodletter bomb on them, you have just successfully negated his bloodletter bomb for multiple turns by buying a 140 point tank.
You can just stick a PBC to a unit of shining spears and force the eldar player to spend CP to charge with them. Bonk a pair of LRBT to switch them off. Tie up a unit of boyz, forcing them to fight a tank they cannot wound well at all.
This is much more likely to win games than an artillery tank with slightly above average firepower.
And at risk of beating a dead horse, but the PBC kitted out to sit back and shoot isn't very good at it. Hitting on 4s (or 5s if moving with a degrading profile) for a tank whose purpose is to stay back and shoot is terrible. You need to use command points to be able to move and shoot without penalty. I could see this argument if it was BS3 like any other marine type vehicle, but it isn't.
Now, the codex does have a tanky unit without a degrading profile that can hit on 3s, provide a cover buff, fire off melta and missle shots and move and shoot without penalty. The trilobe of Myphitic Blight Haulers comes in at a hefty 351 but is 24 t7 wounds, 3+/5+/5++ and "degrades" to BS4 after 8 wounds. The unit puts out 3 missiles and 3 multimeltas along with 3d3 st6 ap1 d1 shots. They have close combat attacks, can be targeted with blades for close combat, have plague weapons, have a -1 to hit in CC,... These things put out very decent and accurate long ranged fire, support surrounding models, and are good at tying up and actually killing stuff in combat.
With all of that said, other than the fact that they're hard to kill, I've been generally underwhelmed by their fire power also.
I guess what I'm getting at is that as a long range fire platform, the PBC isn't the best choice.
Apparently the owner of the list put some crawler and levia backfield and push the 40 Pox forward with 20 plagues marines shielded by cloud of flies behind. With blades of putrefaction thats 15 16 attacks that wound on 2 + and get mortalwounds. During the movement they shoot 40 shots per turn to clear some chaff.
Interesting!
Lots of similar lists use 10 blightlords instead of the PMs due to way higher survival vs all types of weapons, but if you're gonna cloud of flies anyways, that survival is wasted. I do think the blightlords are way scarier in combat with the axes plus blades and votlw. Same number of attacks with WAY better weapons.
I think that I'm going to convert my DG model that came with an icon and replace the icon with either a weapon or some kind of mutation, as someone told me that the icons aren't worth how much they cost in points.
Apparently the owner of the list put some crawler and levia backfield and push the 40 Pox forward with 20 plagues marines shielded by cloud of flies behind. With blades of putrefaction thats 15 16 attacks that wound on 2 + and get mortalwounds. During the movement they shoot 40 shots per turn to clear some chaff.
Huh, I have the models to field that list. I'm going to try that next time I run DG.
You can’t make an efficient gunner PBC because the EC only has 36” range, and you commit to using Daemonforge before rolling the number of shots on your mortar. Rerolling three shots at is rarely worth it, DF is for Defilers and Maulers and Lord of Skulls to trample with, and Lords of Skulls and twin gun Decimators to blaze away with loads of shots.
Jidmah wrote: Yes, they are, even more so when an arch-contaminator is involved.
So if I run 2x7 marines with 2x blight launchers each, with an arch-contaminator chaos lord near to them... is it a good choice?
I think running 5 man units with double BL and plasma champ is good. Like 4 of them near the arch contaminator prince, with the helm for extended range. You're rerolling hits of 1s and all wounds with the launchers. 16 of those shots is pretty scary. Then again 4 squads like that cost 444 pts... So, I dunno. I've had success running something like that but it still feels inefficient.
Special weapons overload could be fun! Double battalion with 6 minimum squads for 12 blight launchers and 6 plasma guns. That seems good and feels very Death Guard-y.
Blight launchers are a very good weapon. They aren't as good against cover, especially when playing Cities of Death, but even then you have the advantage of D3 damage, and Plague weapons against Plasma.
I converted one of my Aspiring Champion models (the one based on the Vrosh Tattersoul model), getting rid of the knife and replace it with the simple clenched fist piece found in the main DG box. The back of the hand that's facing outward is a bit flat and undetailed, so it looks kind of awkward. I was thinking of having it maybe holding the head of a dead enemy, like that of a Space Marine, or maybe just brandishing a nurgling upside down. The axe will be a bubotic axe and I'll just keep the meltagun as is.
I'm really hopeful that sometime soon, we'll get a Death Guard Apocalypse boxset with as many and as diverse of models as we get in the CSM box.
I've seen some people say that the DG hellbrute has been FAQ'd to be able to take 2 power scourges. Is this true? I haven't been able to find this info.
So many varied opinions on PBC’s (as expected really).
I have one proper kit so could magnetise that one.
But I also have two that will be conversions (from a Manticores Forge Father vehicle if you know it), so I’m limited to the weapons that I have on the sides.
Have I think two spare lots of Plague Spitters so can outfit all three with those. Maybe have some Entropy cannons somewhere..
But doubtful on a magnetising option for all of them..
Danny76 wrote: So many varied opinions on PBC’s (as expected really).
I have one proper kit so could magnetise that one.
But I also have two that will be conversions (from a Manticores Forge Father vehicle if you know it), so I’m limited to the weapons that I have on the sides.
Have I think two spare lots of Plague Spitters so can outfit all three with those. Maybe have some Entropy cannons somewhere..
But doubtful on a magnetising option for all of them..
The general consensus of competitive players (and most of those who have actually used these units routinely) is that flamers are superior - for a number of reasons identified above. If you are unsure - go spitters. There is a minority arguing for Entropy - which may be largely due to mono-DG lack of anti armor options... That said if you love the fluff or feel inclined towards building a list specifically around Entropy nothing is to stop you - but just keep in mind you may not be getting the most out of your points...
Danny76 wrote: So many varied opinions on PBC’s (as expected really).
I have one proper kit so could magnetise that one.
But I also have two that will be conversions (from a Manticores Forge Father vehicle if you know it), so I’m limited to the weapons that I have on the sides.
Have I think two spare lots of Plague Spitters so can outfit all three with those. Maybe have some Entropy cannons somewhere..
But doubtful on a magnetising option for all of them..
How do you plan on using the PBCs? I am asking because I know players that will make a list, then when it comes to actually playing a game, they decide at that moment what they want the unit to do when they deploy it! It seems crazy and a clearly weak strategy, but people in fact, do this.
I used to do this.
I used to read the mission pack for the first time when I got to a table at an event.
I used to have to read my codex at the table for almost every stat on my own units.
I am typing all of this because your answer about what to build relies solely on what you want to use your PBCs to do. The two guns are not similar in the least and are capable of very different things. Figure out what you want the model to do and arm it for that.
Brymm wrote: I am typing all of this because your answer about what to build relies solely on what you want to use your PBCs to do. The two guns are not similar in the least and are capable of very different things. Figure out what you want the model to do and arm it for that.
1d4chan states that one way to make Mortarion an even greater death machine is to put him next to a GUO with a bell. Is this a valid strategy? Also, when it comes to the various elite units, I think that I'll ultimately get one of each for now to see how they work and which combinations are the best.
ArcaneHorror wrote: 1d4chan states that one way to make Mortarion an even greater death machine is to put him next to a GUO with a bell. Is this a valid strategy? Also, when it comes to the various elite units, I think that I'll ultimately get one of each for now to see how they work and which combinations are the best.
I have no idea where they’re getting that from. GUO+bell has zero synergy with single model units. Mortarion is a Boromir who wants to have protective buffs cast on him and (ideally with Warptime) leap headlong into the enemy army (and certainly not dragging along a 7”M ball and chain) and demand their entire attention. (Gnarlmaw would let him Advance and shoot and charge?)
As for the GUO itself, well, if you’re going to deploy it then it’s probably as a very attractive fire magnet. Putting multi-model Nurgle Daemon units near it - especially certain Heretic Astartes - is the obvious synergy, but not for direct reasons. Resurrection is an unreliable gimmick, but what it does is make the GUO an even higher priority target - nobody wants to risk investing in killing an Obliterator and a Blight-Hauler only to have them get back up again.
ArcaneHorror wrote: 1d4chan states that one way to make Mortarion an even greater death machine is to put him next to a GUO with a bell. Is this a valid strategy? Also, when it comes to the various elite units, I think that I'll ultimately get one of each for now to see how they work and which combinations are the best.
I have no idea where they’re getting that from. GUO+bell has zero synergy with single model units. Mortarion is a Boromir who wants to have protective buffs cast on him and (ideally with Warptime) leap headlong into the enemy army (and certainly not dragging along a 7”M ball and chain) and demand their entire attention. (Gnarlmaw would let him Advance and shoot and charge?)
As for the GUO itself, well, if you’re going to deploy it then it’s probably as a very attractive fire magnet. Putting multi-model Nurgle Daemon units near it - especially certain Heretic Astartes - is the obvious synergy, but not for direct reasons. Resurrection is an unreliable gimmick, but what it does is make the GUO an even higher priority target - nobody wants to risk investing in killing an Obliterator and a Blight-Hauler only to have them get back up again.
Ok, that's good, I didn't want to be tempted to spend all that money.
At the moment, I own two Lord of Contagions and plan to give one a Plaguereaper and one a Manreaper so as to allow for a diversification of attacks. Do you think that this is a good idea?
I cannot find anything stating that DG Cultists have the same 10-30 restriction that has been added to regular CSM Cultists
Probably an oversight that’ll get patched when noticed, or am I missing something? Only with access to Blightbringer rerolls, forty of them Warptiming with four Flamers then recycling with Tide of Traitors sounds infuriating
Probably better to post in army lists, but I want more to discuss general idea, rather than specific roster.
I have contemplated the fate of my poxwalker farm lately.
Before the nerf it had been A++ roster, and I think it is the only army I have ever played that yielded 0 loses across three tournaments (9 games total). I tried them with Plasma Obliterator, even won one tournament with Aquila Strongpoint as a first turn protection for poxwalkers.
After the nerf it is has been, as far as I can tell, ubiquitously considered to be non-competitive unit, due to inefficient, too expensive poxwalkers generation.
And I've generally agreed with this assesment, but meta have changed. ETC Rulepack for 2019 provided new table maps, which are baseline for local tournaments as well. Less than a month ago huge local team tournament happened, and sheer amount of los-blocking terrain was total shock.
Just to give your the idea:
Spoiler:
This is considered to be moderate table, with only 4 los blocking "books" as we call them:
Spoiler:
Immediately after the tournament I thought:"Wait a minute, if I kick out the fortification from my poxwalkers roster I will have enough points to play them once again!"
Unfortunately the demand for 1k sons is pretty high in my team, so access to them might be restricted.
1 Pink Horror dead = 16pts for horrors + 24pts for poxwalkers = 40 pts for a full cycle
480pts = 12 dead pink horrors cycles = 48 extra poxwalkers
Max poxwalkers squad - 58 models.
If the opponent is experienced enough to avoid killing anything within 7" of the poxwalkers, I have enough characters to summon extra plaguebearers or horrors (on 4d6 I can even try to summon squads of 30) or tailor to the situation summoning DPs or Exalted Flamers against flyers, for example.
Crawlers are currently a placeholder. They are almost as resilient as a knight for a fraction of cost, but I don't want to give the opponents a valid target for anti-tank weapons, and without Gnarlmaw their combat efficiency is limited. Access to Dark Hereticus powers is important because of warp-time.
If I stick to crawlers I might drop Blightspawn for a Gnarlmaw.
If I have acess to 1k sons, I will probably get supreme command of Ahriman (165), DP (180) and Sorcerer (98) instead of crawlers (or patrol with Ahriman and Tzaangors)
or
I may drop Crawlers to get a single Chaos Knight to have at least some chances of getting points for the First Strike. Even without "chapter tactic" Iconoclast gives variety of options.
What do you think about Poxwalkers bomb in a terrain-heavy metagame?
Fan67 wrote: Probably better to post in army lists, but I want more to discuss general idea, rather than specific roster.
I have contemplated the fate of my poxwalker farm lately.
Before the nerf it had been A++ roster, and I think it is the only army I have ever played that yielded 0 loses across three tournaments (9 games total). I tried them with Plasma Obliterator, even won one tournament with Aquila Strongpoint as a first turn protection for poxwalkers.
After the nerf it is has been, as far as I can tell, ubiquitously considered to be non-competitive unit, due to inefficient, too expensive poxwalkers generation.
And I've generally agreed with this assesment, but meta have changed. ETC Rulepack for 2019 provided new table maps, which are baseline for local tournaments as well. Less than a month ago huge local team tournament happened, and sheer amount of los-blocking terrain was total shock.
Just to give your the idea:
Spoiler:
This is considered to be moderate table, with only 4 los blocking "books" as we call them:
Spoiler:
Immediately after the tournament I thought:"Wait a minute, if I kick out the fortification from my poxwalkers roster I will have enough points to play them once again!"
Unfortunately the demand for 1k sons is pretty high in my team, so access to them might be restricted.
1 Pink Horror dead = 16pts for horrors + 24pts for poxwalkers = 40 pts for a full cycle
480pts = 12 dead pink horrors cycles = 48 extra poxwalkers
Max poxwalkers squad - 58 models.
If the opponent is experienced enough to avoid killing anything within 7" of the poxwalkers, I have enough characters to summon extra plaguebearers or horrors (on 4d6 I can even try to summon squads of 30) or tailor to the situation summoning DPs or Exalted Flamers against flyers, for example.
Crawlers are currently a placeholder. They are almost as resilient as a knight for a fraction of cost, but I don't want to give the opponents a valid target for anti-tank weapons, and without Gnarlmaw their combat efficiency is limited. Access to Dark Hereticus powers is important because of warp-time.
If I stick to crawlers I might drop Blightspawn for a Gnarlmaw.
If I have acess to 1k sons, I will probably get supreme command of Ahriman (165), DP (180) and Sorcerer (98) instead of crawlers (or patrol with Ahriman and Tzaangors)
or
I may drop Crawlers to get a single Chaos Knight to have at least some chances of getting points for the First Strike. Even without "chapter tactic" Iconoclast gives variety of options.
What do you think about Poxwalkers bomb in a terrain-heavy metagame?
Spoiler:
It's an interesting list and if you catch someone unawares it will ruin their day, but I think too many things have to go right for you.
The biggest issues is cost for me. For the cost of the poxwalkers and support, you could just have a ton of plaguebearers. Walkers need to come down to 5 points.
Actually i think the cost of the poxwalkers is fine.
Biggest issue is the squad size.
And while plaguebearers are great for screening and board control, they are highly unlikely to grow over 30 models, and getting extra attacks on them is a painful quest. So very few S4-5 attacks with +1 to wound at best.
Poxwalkers can reliably grow to 50+ models and are way better buff recipients:
They can easily get S5T5 (plaguebearers require epidemius and killing multiple enemy units to get T5)
They can easily get +2 to wound
They can easily get FULL reroll to hit
They are immune to morale - the bane of big units
Fully grown 50+ unit of poxwalkers buffed reliably slays knight.
But most importantly - they are immune to enemy fire due to Cloud of Flies. Even though they are slow, they can reliably reach enemy’s part of the table.
IF you can pull off the Poxwalker farm, it can still be powerful. But it does entail starting the game with a few hundred off the board. You need to screen the ‘seed’ unit as well as you would a character. Thankfully, cloud of flies prevents snipers, but if a list is capable of breaking the cordon and excising the patients zero, it can fall apart.
With the new space marine codex being announced, do you all think the heretic version will follow a similar pattern? I.e. chaos space marine codex and individual chapter supplements.
Either way I'm excited for a new DG codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Top of my wish list, DR and toughness 5 for our chaos lords. Would love entropy cannons to become plague weapons as well. That'd be lush.
This should probably go to rules thread, but explain to me:
At ETC from team Belarus Alexandr Filippov after first day is in top 20 with his list. Looking at his list he has a following spearhead detachment (+1cp):
Xirax wrote: This should probably go to rules thread, but explain to me:
At ETC from team Belarus Alexandr Filippov after first day is in top 20 with his list. Looking at his list he has a following spearhead detachment (+1cp):
Oh, thanks. Bloat-drones, BL termies and foul blightspawns can be added to regular chaos detachments. Also death company or sanguinary guard or smash cpt into regular SM detachment when they share adeptus astartes. I can't understand how we have missed this. We always thought it was you can't mix factions inside detachments. Thanks.
Xirax wrote: Oh, thanks. Bloat-drones, BL termies and foul blightspawns can be added to regular chaos detachments. Also death company or sanguinary guard or smash cpt into regular SM detachment when they share adeptus astartes. I can't understand how we have missed this. We always thought it was you can't mix factions inside detachments. Thanks.
Thats because of the way gw decided to handle faction keywords. You cant mix units from different codexes into the same detachment of they are using the CHAOS or IMPERIAL or ELDAR keywords as their only shared keyword. This causes confusion and many take it to just mean stick to 1 codex per detachment. But yeah, you can do what he did. That detachment loses access to any chapter tactics it may normally get (which in this case means nothing) but the detachment still can use relics / stratagems from their allotted group.
Its why you see a lot of black templar scouts mixed into other marine detachments that are not templars. Players use the forward deployment to garuntee themselves the ability to deny psycic powers t1 before the enemy has a chance to kill the scouts. Typically it will be in a detachment where the other units in said group are not concerned about getting tactics (like a vehicle detachment). This will all change i imagine once the new marine codexs hit. People will be less interested in losing their chapter tactics with their tanks getting access to them suddenly.
You can also nominate a DEITY as your detachment keyword.
I like to run at least one pure Daemons detachment - Possession is such a nice thing to have to hand when you come up against a psyker-Heavy army, and all four gods have something useful to bring - but you might not even need the Locus and Legion perks from a ‘pure’ detachment. A Defiler Jamboree can be followed by Horticulous throwing Gnarlmaws all over the place, anchoring their rear and making the centre ground into a nightmare for enemy units.
Well, it will somewhat depend on your list. If you’re taking a Daemons of Nurgle detachment, PBC have more synergies as they can benefit from various Locus auras and Gnarlmaws. If you’re going pure DG, then the ability of FW stompers to move and shoot without penalty is pretty solid.
What would people recommend as a DG shopping list?
I'm looking to work towards a list for tournament play and Australian GW prices are gross.
What do DG players consider competitive?
You can't go wrong with Plagueburst Crawlers, Daemon Princes and Foetid Bloatdrones. Foul Blightspawns are rock as well. If you want competitive though you're gonna want to avoid our troops and instead look to soup in Nurgle daemons.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Our terminators are unreal as well.
Ian Sturrock wrote: Is there a consensus on wings / no wings for the Daemon Prince?
Only no-Wings DPs I’ve seen advocated are a Khorne Skullreaver one that doesn’t want to pay 2CP for its deep strike, and Syll’Esske. Anything else - and especially an Astartes one - really wants the extra speed and ability to ignore walls.
I don’t even buy the footslogging argument with Skullreaver. I want that to be able to reach high value target two the turn after it arrives.
DGDP especially loves wings so that it can fly in with the drones. Start them near to a Gnarlmaw and Blightbringer, turn one charges are pretty doable.
I had a non-winged DP once when I was originally intending to run a Chaos Lord, but had enough points to spare to upgrade him to a DP, but not for wings.
Yeah, I’m going to build a foot prince, but that’s because I main Word Bearers and want to field Ingethel. She’ll be tricky to get good use out of. Probably field her with Possessed and Daemon Engines to bum rush midfield objectives.
Actually, Possessed might also be an interesting match for a DG prince who’s an obligatory pedestrian.
Hey guys,
Anyone here routinely use Plague Spewers on their Princes? I've been playing around with my lists and due to a big change at the annual GT I attend, I need to drop Morty due to him being a reliable handicap every game.
If you use them, do you think its worth the 15pt tax?
Brymm wrote: Hey guys,
Anyone here routinely use Plague Spewers on their Princes? I've been playing around with my lists and due to a big change at the annual GT I attend, I need to drop Morty due to him being a reliable handicap every game.
If you use them, do you think its worth the 15pt tax?
IMO, only if that daemon prince is an arch contaminator or you are having trouble with eldar/planes. I did the math a while back and the extra attack from hateful blows on the DP favors of the sword over talons. So, compared to the dual talon prince you get more damage for more points, but you will have more trouble killing primaris, shining spears or other elite infantry. It's kind of annoying that the spewer is heavy, so you can't advance and shoot it.
I'm actually loaded on spitters already with three drones and a crawler for Eldar planes and light transports already. But again, dishing out 3.5 auto hitting nearly auto wounds per prince near the warlord prince seems good.
Plus, you have the math on the sword vs claws? I thought I mathed it out in the past and found the claws better in almost every spot. More attacks meant more chances for DTtFE to go off. Now with the new Errata giving chaos stuff an extra attack on the charge or being charged, does that swing it back to the sword?
Talons are better than sword, but sword+spitter is even better but cost more. Also, don't forget you still get to use the other talon once, most people do.
lindsay40k wrote: So basically it seems that Spewsword vs Dualtalon is pretty balanced for the price
If you’re facing hit modifiers or non-Imperium, Spewsword probably nudges a little ahead
That's how I'm planning then. Again, I'll keep everyone updated on what I end up running and how I do up to and after the event in October. It might have three spewer princes, three drones and a crawler! Thats a lot of autohitting!
On another question - what Helbrute loadouts work well for DG? Normal ones, not Contemptors. I’m using Skaven for Cultists and Rat Ogres for Spawn and picked up a box of Stormfiends to make into dreads.
Power Scourge and Heavy Plasma look like a solid pick for a meta likely to flood with Primaris, especially with Legion trait. Paired fists might be nice if Aggressors and infiltrating dreads start to get popular.
Anyone casting putrescent blades on MBH triples after the hateful assault buff? Risky if you get stuck but that's 12 attacks at -2 after a full round of shooting.
Yeah, that probably works. Again, a Bloat Drone is probably better, if you could possibly convert into something that looks anything like a FBD, that would probably be better.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PoorGravitasHandling wrote: Anyone casting putrescent blades on MBH triples after the hateful assault buff? Risky if you get stuck but that's 12 attacks at -2 after a full round of shooting.
Blades is a good sneaky choice to throw on a trilobe. Very good against single wound infantry, great to charge after shooting some sort of tank. Blades lets them do some mortal wounds and harm bigger stuff in combat. Why not?
lindsay40k wrote: On another question - what Helbrute loadouts work well for DG? Normal ones, not Contemptors. I’m using Skaven for Cultists and Rat Ogres for Spawn and picked up a box of Stormfiends to make into dreads.
Power Scourge and Heavy Plasma look like a solid pick for a meta likely to flood with Primaris, especially with Legion trait. Paired fists might be nice if Aggressors and infiltrating dreads start to get popular.
I toyed with them a lot, and it's basically just twin lascannon/missile launcher that works. Any other variant suffers from "oh it doesn't have 5++ and DR?" and just dies before it does anything. If you can't hide it 48" away from you enemy's mid-range fire it's dead meat.
Hopefully just handles hordes, lots of autohitting near auto wounding shots for paper airplanes and light vehicles, and anything wanting to assault within 9inches. Slightly worried about 3 knights or lots and lots of heavy armor, but I'll just play objectives at that point.
vaklor4 wrote: Im thinking of getting into DG, what would some traps or pitfalls be for getting into the faction? Any units I should avoid buying?
Currently, our screening horde units are poorly priced to compete with the board control of Nurglings and the endurance of Plaguebearers
Mortarion is in a tricky position whereby he's priced like a Knight but has lower T, and Deathshroud can only (expensively) tank for him if he keeps pace with them
Melee Plague Marines are viable but you'll need Rhinos to deliver them
vaklor4 wrote: Im thinking of getting into DG, what would some traps or pitfalls be for getting into the faction? Any units I should avoid buying?
The biggest trap is probably the Plague Surgeon, as he doesn't actually do a good job at protecting your stuff.
Afterwards come the Deathshroud who are terrible at protecting Mortarion, but casual-okish if you just use them like assault terminaors.
All other Death Guard specific units are decent, except maybe the heavy blight launcher drone.
Defilers, Predators and Helbrutes suffer a bit from being the easiest to kill targets in the army.
As long as your army has some sort of plan it should work. For tournament level play you definitely need to add CSM and/or daemons.
Just played some Death Guard vs. Ultramarines. Not competitive lists or anything, although my opponent had Calgar and I had Morty. I ended up winning by tabling him, mostly because my DR rolls were absolutely on point all game long. Morty lived longer than he should have as well.
My takes from the game:
-Morty is good, but he's often just a bullseye with wings. His buff aura is decent but not any better than that of a Daemon Prince really. He absolutely needs to be in combat to get full use, as he's too expensive to be just a distraction carnifex. Not easy to do with pure DG since we lack Warptime.
-Myphitic Blight-haulers are good, but can fall short vs. T8 targets. Always, always, always run them in units of 3, and it's probably worthwhile to keep a Lord or Daemon Prince nearby for the reroll 1's to hit.
-The Foul Blightspawn is pretty nasty, but also very swingy. I'd still take at least one in every game with DG.
-Personally I think Plasma is the way to go on Plague Marines over Blight Launchers. Again, you want a reroll 1's buff character nearby so you can supercharge relatively safely. Blight Launchers aren't terrible, but that d3 damage can bite you sometimes, and the AP isn't as good as a plasmagun.
-Bloat Drones might be the best unit in the DG codex, especially near a DP with Arch-contaminator. More expensive than a PBC, but having Fly makes it worth the extra points. I'd say always take the spitters, although I must admit I've never tried the other options so my opinion on them is based on supposition.
-My list this evening had a lot of fast moving elements, with Morty, 2 Bloat Drones, a trilobe of Blight Haulers, a DP, and a Rhino full of Plague Marines, a Foul Blightspawn, and a Malignant Plaguecaster. I think this is probably one of the better ways to play Death Guard, as opposed to trying to play straight PBC gunline or something.
In favor of Blight Launchers: when near your Arch Contaminator guy (10 inches with Helm), hitting on 3s rerolling 1s then usually wounding on 3s rerolling all is just brutal. Even against higher toughness I find my launchers doing work. And since I usually run double BL and Plas champ PM squads, I see them side by side in a shooting phase, and BLs come out better for me.
My two cents.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and I make sure I do more Plague weapons as we use the tactical cards and we have a mission where you gotta knock off the last wound with a Plague Weapon. I draw that card often.
I saw this recently discussed a few pages ago but any more opinions on Blightlords in competitive meta (ITC)?
I haven't had the opportunity to play test but was considering resurrecting Don Hooson's list from BAO that he won in 2018 - except with moirax wardogs with lightning locks and a few tweeks.
The Hateful Assault rule looks like a great buff for the BL - they are decent in close combat but hitting on 3+ can be janky, particularly if no rerolls nearby and even with the flail the number of times an odd ork boy would survive (to revive the squad), charging into something truly fearsome (grot blob) or running into something that is -1 or 2 to hit in melee - just didn't feel like it was enough to get anything done. The extra attack also works well with our pyschic powers (Blades) and VOTLW (no new news here)...
However, on the flip side, AP weapons look to permeate the meta now, with even a bread and butter Intercessor squad rocking -2 AP with rapid fire at 30 inches, and can be hard to dislodge with combi-bolters if in cover. At the time the list was run initially (2018) it looked like mortars and other low AP weapons were the flavor with the 2+ being great for this small arms fire...
I've used the blightlord blob a few times with some of my worst tournament results - having piloted it poorly as well as running into some rough matchups (7 eldar fliers etc.) so I'm lukewarm but love the models so i'm considering digging them back up...
TLDR: Is it worth bringing Blightlords in competitive or just not feasible currently?
They are anti horde and anti marine units that can deep strike and are incredibly hard to remove.
They synergize well with our few strats and psychic powers and our best warlord trait. They benefit from the new assault special rule and the new bolter rule. They went down in points last year. The flail is an amazing weapon against just about all targets. Axes are just the perfect stats to cleave the new Marines.
They rock 2+/4++/5+++ and are T5 2W.
Except for their slow speed, there's nothing not to like.
I'm just sad I modeled mine with Combiplasmas when it's better to keep them cheap.
That said, I don't think Intercessors are the biggest threat out there for Blightlords. Yes, they can easily get -2 AP, but they are only S4 so wounding BL on 5+, and we still get a 4+ and a 5+++. The aforementioned Aeldari Flyers are far far worse, as BL basically can't interact with those meaningfully.
Brymm wrote: What about a Death Guard monster mash list?
Running drones, crawlers, haulers, daemon princes and Morty?
Does it have legs?
Works well enough for a fun list, but it's too few models and to little killing power(Mortarion dies first anyways) to actually win the game.
Such a list definitely needs terminators or pox walkers to take objectives.
Brymm wrote: What about a Death Guard monster mash list?
Running drones, crawlers, haulers, daemon princes and Morty?
Does it have legs?
Works well enough for a fun list, but it's too few models and to little killing power(Mortarion dies first anyways) to actually win the game.
Such a list definitely needs terminators or pox walkers to take objectives.
I keep coming back to that as well. I'll probably give it a go without Morty and trade in terminators and walkers. Its really close on points too. I'll report back with the list.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoiler:
*2019alt (Warhammer 40,000 8th Edition) [116 PL, 6CP, 1,999pts]
Battalion Detachment +5CP (Chaos - Death Guard)
No Force Org Slot
Battle-forged CP Detachment CP Gifts of Decay (2 Relics)
HQ Daemon Prince of Nurgle
Selections: 1. Miasma of Pestilence, 6. Arch-Contaminator, Fugaris' Helm, Hellforged sword, Plague spewer, Warlord, Wings
Daemon Prince of Nurgle
Selections: 4. Blades of Putrefaction, Malefic talon, The Suppurating Plate, Wings
Fast Attack
Foetid Bloat-drone
Selections: 2x Plaguespitters, Plague probe
Heavy Support
Plagueburst Crawler
Selections: 2x Plaguespitter, Heavy slugger
Outrider Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Death Guard)
No Force Org Slot
Detachment CP HQ Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour
Selections: Combi-bolter, Plaguebringer, Power sword
Fast Attack
Foetid Bloat-drone
Selections: 2x Plaguespitters, Plague probe
Saw a list at LGT that ran Morty with chaos monster mash and magnus. This guy used warptime on a unit of 6 deathshroud to reliable move and advance twice getting them reliably to match pace with Morty. Made people think twice about targetting Morty and virtually guarantees he survives.
Tried a monsterish mash list vs Tyranids today. The Haulers didn't work, folded surprisingly fast to Hive Guard fire, a 10+ 6w smite, charge from a hive tyrant and by turn 2 those 24 wounds were toast.
Too few infantry also hurt me. Game is paused on turn 3 but it looks real grim.
How are people equipping standard Plague Marine squads?
I've got enough models for two units of seven and a unit of five.
I assume two plasma guns and plasma champ for the large units and maybe double blight launcher and plasma champ on the smaller?
Is it worth taking melee upgrades on the Champions, or just the plasma?
Are any of the non- plasma/blight launcher weapons actually useful?
I've got enough models for two units of seven and a unit of five.
I assume two plasma guns and plasma champ for the large units and maybe double blight launcher and plasma champ on the smaller?
Is it worth taking melee upgrades on the Champions, or just the plasma?
Are any of the non- plasma/blight launcher weapons actually useful?
2 units of 5 with just 2 blightlaunchers mainly. If I'm running MBHs I'll normally have a unit of 5 with 3 plasma hiding amongst them with a lord. I normally try to avoid melee options on the champ and just go for the knife.
Double blight launcher with a plasma champion in a 5 man unit. The two extra are bullet catchers. I don't see a reason to take more in a squad unless you're doing a giant grenade strat blob.
If you want more plague marines, I suggest min squads to maximize special weapon saturation.
If you try 3-4 squads of them with a Lord and a hauler for cover, good little fire base with Arch Contaminator.
Thanks!
It's been play testing well and seems to be the way to go in the format. I'm focusing on the objective game and denying/scoring secondaries. For the most part, except for a single mission, killing things isn't even a primary mission. Plus we thin our decks by 6 cards each game.
The basic goal is to push right to the center and score objectives as I draw them, and reaching out and killing scoring units as the situation presents. I play my princes very conservatively and keep them in the center of my plague spitter death bubble.
I'm going to be having two princes in DG army. One is already assembled and has the tried and true double talons. For the other one, I was thinking of doing the sword/talon/plague spewer combination. Is this worthwhile, both in terms of points and effectiveness?
If you have the points, it could be worth considering. Hateful Assault makes it an option at least. Personally I dont thi k it's worth the points for a single damage attack you might only use once or not at all.
Sword Prince is good for Chaos Daemons though, since you can upgrade to the Corruption relic for str 9 reroll to wound.
I have mine on my Warlord Contaminator prince because I don't want him in combat unless he's killing whatever it is he's assaulting. He's always in range of his aura, he can overwatch incoming chargers and can contribute with actual fire power. I wish it came in a little cheaper but alas 15pts still feels worth it.
I do quite like the spewer on a flying DP, always a nasty surprise falling back and spraying something rerolling wounds. Teams up nicely with the multiple drones/crawlers he will inevitably hang around
I think I'll go with one prince with a sword and spewer and one with two talons. The one with the spewer will have wings. If points allow for it, I might put in a third prince, with talons. In terms of my psychics, I have two plaguecasters and I am thinking of adding in a traditional Chaos sorcerer for additional psychic abilities. Is this a good idea?
Unless we get a bunch of new psychic powers, three princes, two plaguecasters and a scorcerer is probably too much. Spamming smite without a reduction modifier sucks after 2 casts and we don't have the best abilities otherwise.
I mean, what do we have to cast? Miasma and blades? Then what? Situational mortal wounds with wind and leper? Things change a lot if you're using CSM and Daemons...
Brymm wrote: Unless we get a bunch of new psychic powers, three princes, two plaguecasters and a scorcerer is probably too much. Spamming smite without a reduction modifier sucks after 2 casts and we don't have the best abilities otherwise.
I mean, what do we have to cast? Miasma and blades? Then what? Situational mortal wounds with wind and leper? Things change a lot if you're using CSM and Daemons...
I agree. I admittedly only play DG very casually (Plague Marines and MBHs), but with a Daemon Prince, Necrosius, and a Purge Sorcerer (for Prescience on the MBHs) I find myself running out of useful things to cast.
Does anyone think that mono death guard are even feasible anymore with the release of the new SMs? I have played a few games now and wow does it feel like almost an impossible fight. If they just gave us a few buffs I feel I could hang in a game. Iron hands for example feel way more resilient than DGatm.
broxus wrote: Does anyone think that mono death guard are even feasible anymore with the release of the new SMs? I have played a few games now and wow does it feel like almost an impossible fight. If they just gave us a few buffs I feel I could hang in a game. Iron hands for example feel way more resilient than DGatm.
I can't remember the last time mono death guard were feasible in a competitive setting... that is, when leaving FW at home.
At the highest levels mono DG isn't viable. At any other level it is. Again, a lot of folks really gak on many armies because they aren't the most competitive... In reality MOST PLAYERS couldn't beat the highest level players with a 500pt handicap. Player skill is the most important factor to determine competativeness. Roger Federer could beat you at tennis with a ping pong paddle.
My point is is that most people aren't going to a GT or Major and being in the top 8. That's including people who are playing the current hotness. In fact it is a lot of people playing the current hotness.
Pure Death Guard is fine. It's simple to play, it's forgiving of mistakes and if you practice, you can win a lot of games.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I think I'll go with one prince with a sword and spewer and one with two talons. The one with the spewer will have wings. If points allow for it, I might put in a third prince, with talons. In terms of my psychics, I have two plaguecasters and I am thinking of adding in a traditional Chaos sorcerer for additional psychic abilities. Is this a good idea?
Just to check - everyone’s aware that DG can’t get Dark Hereticus, yeah
(Unless you take a Sorcerer on Palanquin and successfully negotiate a strict RAW reading of its powers, which a lot of TO’s will reject - along with the Index model itself)
Once I get my three reinforcement models and a biologus putrifier, I'm going to start tallying my points. Are the Tainted Cohort worth getting? I don't think I've ever seen anyone talk about them.
Ok, I think I'll skip them then. What's the best load out for the foetid bloat drones? I have the Dark Imperium one with the plague spewers, but I was thinking of getting one with a flesh mower and one with a blight launcher to allow for maximum versatility.
I gave my pair the spewers and the launcher as part of an Epidemius list. Not impressed with the launcher, but I haven’t used it since Primaris got buffed. Still feels a bit too inaccurate, when I encountered a fleshmower it had Tallyman rerolls that made it fearsome. Spewer, mower, haulers and DP are definitely my go-to DG detachment - start them next to a Gnarlmaw & Blightbringer and it’s going to get messy
ArcaneHorror wrote: What's the best load out for the foetid bloat drones? I have the Dark Imperium one with the plague spewers, but I was thinking of getting one with a flesh mower and one with a blight launcher to allow for maximum versatility.
It's quite easy to magnetize the drone (just like the Crawler) and I'd suggest to do so. Other than that, the spewers right now are the best loadout. I've had success with the mower, too. It's very cheap and you get 10 attacks, which complements a CCDG force pretty well. Throw some Dreadnoughts, CC plague marines, possessed and Prince into the mix and your opponent really has to think what he/she wants to take down first, as everything hits pretty hard.
Somewhere in the beginning of this thread someone did the math on the flesh mower, and it outperforms a talon DP - if it gets the re-roll aura of a DP. Also keep in mind that it is a plague weapon, so you get a lot more mileage out of Blades of Putrefaction.
As for the blight launcher - unlike plague marines or blight lords, it doesn't have BS 3+ and the drone doesn't get Inexorable Advance, so I'd rather buy two units of plague marines since provide CP and the drone doesn't.
Hey all,
I'm going to do my report in most likely 5 parts. I am mainly a Dad-hammer player in that I have limited time to play, hobby and write related to all things Warhammer.
This past weekend I played in the Michigan GT in Lansing. Sadly, the weekend was tainted with the passing of a great friend of mine, so alas, the overall amazing weekend was slightly less amazing. None the less I played in the event.
There were 120 players with a pretty diverse field. This was the first Iron Hands weekend and I was expecting to play my fair share. I posted my list earlier in this thread and just to go over some basic thoughts I had with it:
I was very prepared for Eldar Flyers. I have a ton of auto hitting guns as well as quite a few smite sources and flying assault threats. Plus I would be able to clear objective holding infantry pretty well, even those out of line of sight.
Next, I was prepared for most Marines. I could consistently handle power armor bodies as well as kill pretty much anything starting forward towards me.
Third, I was prepared for most Orks. The most dangerous unit to me was Lootas and I feel like it just isn't dangerous enough unless I make deployment mistakes or they roll very well.
Fourth, I was probably 50/50 with Tau/ Probably against a great player I would get smoked, and if I played someone making mistakes, I could probably take advantage. My drones and crawlers can soak overwatch allowing me to get a juicy charge with a prince or two.
Fifth, I feel like I would auto lose to knights. I just don't have the knight killing firepower let alone multiple knight killing power. I figured if I play them, I would just play the mission and hide.
I hadn't really considered how much of an impact Iron Hands would have and actually didn't prepare for them at all.
Last year I played 5 pretty tight games with my Plague Marine / Mortarion list but managed to earn 5 wins. I was looking for a repeat performance with a better score and higher place. The mission format changed just a bit, scoring would be a combination of Malestrom cards, end game objectives and semi-variable secondaries. The secondaries and how they worked were the big change. Now there would be six secondaries that would be an effect each game. Each secondary could only be picked once and would be drafted in a "I pick, you pick" format with your opponent. They were:
1. Slay Warlord and keep yours alive
2. Have more units in center at end
3. Have more units in enemy deploy than yours
4. Kill their most expensive unit and preserve yours
5. Control more terrain features at end
6. Kill more in round 1 than the opponent
My list:
Spoiler:
Deamon Prince with wings, sword, spewer, Helm
Daemon Prince with wings, claws, Plate
Malignant Plague Caster
Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor, Balesword, Combibolter
(after the event, I would have considered spending the points to get him the relic Plague Bringer, this dude made combat about every game)
3 x 10 Poxwalkers
3 x 10 Cultists
Foetid Bloat Drone with double spitters x 3
Plagueburst Crawler with double spitters x 2
8x Blightlords with bolters and axes
Strange but doable. Each of these are always in play in each game. That means Mortarion had to go, he would always die meaning I would always lose Marked for Death, every time. Also, the terrain feature one was weird and seemed unnatural as controlling terrain features has never been part of the game, this would cost me in round 3.
Round 1: ORKS!!!
Setting up, I realized I was playing against another Dad-Hammer player, someone who has been playing on and off for many years and is busy working a job and raising kids. He was playing an interesting list with a mob of Flashgitz, 15 Lootas, a CAN MOB!, two dreads, lots of boys and more boys... and a big squad of MEGANOBZ! He also had a KFF mek, a weird boy, some Mek guns which I believe were Smashas and a Warboss.
He had more drops than me and I ended up deploying my troops in my back field to screen out a DA JUMP. In his deploying, he underestimated how far my drones could move and still shoot, and ended up deploying them just a little too close. We had access to chess clocks each game, but we didn't use them. I deployed the three drones right up front with the two princes behind, finally with the two crawlers behind them.
He won the roll off but chose to hand off the first turn to me. I have to admit I always want the first turn because I can just move to the center of the board and use my general resiliency to tank shots before unloading with spewers. Also, if there happens to be LOS blockers in the middle, I can use them for a turn too.
With first turn I was able to scoot up and position with some advance rolls to shoot plague spitters at the Lootas. The deployment only had us about 18 inches apart at the front of our deployment zone and Drones have a 20-25" threat range. I also was able to move up and Plaguewind on turn 1 with my Malignant Plague Caster. Between rolling good on shots and rolling good on Plague Wind, I was able to knock down all of the Lootas. Also, my Crawlers were able to drop some bombs down on the killa cans as they marched up the board.
His first round, he moved up the Mob, moved up boyz, moved up dreads and fired lots of shots, including a million rockits and shoota shots. He also managed to counter charge with his Meganobz against my front drones.
One drone died, another was badly damaged but on my turn the Terminators came down near the Flashgitz in the corner and shot them up pretty good and failed their charge. Sadly for me, I was not aware that Flashgitz had great Terminator killing guns and were multiwound models, making them just about the worst thing to drop down on. You live and learn.
I ended up counter charging with my Daemon Princes, who along with the remaining drone who fell back and shot, and the remaining fresh drone, managed to kill then Meganobz and Warboss.
Another timely Plague Wind helped scorch some boyz from one of the big squads, along with spewers from the tanks.
By the end of top of 2, things were looking grim for the Orks. One of his big squads was basically dead, the meganobz were dead, the warboss was dead. He needed a big turn 2 to turn the tide towards the green.
Sadly for him, his turn 2 didn't do everything he wanted it to. He just didn't have the firepower needed to take down my big tough units, he needed his Kans in combat, which they would be this turn, but he rolled poorly on that critical turn to do a lot of real damage. The damaged drone went down and I believe one Prince was wounded pretty badly. His Flashgitz rolled poorly vs my Terminators and as turn 3 rolled around, I was able to charge and kill the Flashgitz, fall back from the kans and drop mortar shots on them, smite them and torch them more.
The Kan/Prince/Drone combat was taking place near the center of the board and as it continued, I won the war of attrition.
Time was becoming an issue and I had scored quite a few Maelstrom cards up until this point. I had killed his Warlord and mine was alive and I needed to maintain the center of the board for my secondaries. I held 4 of the 6 objectives firmly and each would be worth 2 pts at the end. By the end of 4 I had tallied up a pretty decent but hard fought win.
The scoring was take the point differential and I add it to 25 and he subtracts from 25, giving me a 38-12 win.
ROUND 1 W 38-12
Lessons from this round: Perhaps starting terminators on the board would be a better idea? I could have gotten another round of anti-infantry shooting in, maybe pushing the win up a few more points. Also, chess clocks would have helped me score more also, we only finished 4 turns. MVPs were the Bloat Drones, they just do so much work.
Hello people, I recently decided to shelve my Orks for a while and pick up some other guys in green. Loving though, immovable type of armies Death Guard seemed like a natural fit. Now having read the codex it seems the Death Guard love to use infantry, which is also right up my alley. So now I´m wondering what kind of units/list should I buy/build for a mono DG list that wants to have a lot of PM units. I was thinking of including some Poxwalker units to capture objectives/screen/throw in the meatgrinder and some MBH for the cover save and much needed anti-tank.
But I'm hoping some of you can help me with what to get seeing as I have no experience playing any army other than Orks. Furthermore Mono-DG is what I want to play with PM at it's core. Also tips/tricks on how to play such a list are much appreciated!
Castozor wrote: Hello people, I recently decided to shelve my Orks for a while and pick up some other guys in green. Loving though, immovable type of armies Death Guard seemed like a natural fit. Now having read the codex it seems the Death Guard love to use infantry, which is also right up my alley. So now I´m wondering what kind of units/list should I buy/build for a mono DG list that wants to have a lot of PM units. I was thinking of including some Poxwalker units to capture objectives/screen/throw in the meatgrinder and some MBH for the cover save and much needed anti-tank.
But I'm hoping some of you can help me with what to get seeing as I have no experience playing any army other than Orks. Furthermore Mono-DG is what I want to play with PM at it's core. Also tips/tricks on how to play such a list are much appreciated!
It's a fun list to take, and no mistake! It won't be winning any top tables, but who cares? You'll be the coolest guy in your gaming group!
When I play DG, I also use this basic core. Some of the best units we have to fill it out are as follows:
HQs: Daemon Princes
Elite: Blightlord Terminators, Foul Blightspawns
FA: Bloat Drones
Heavy Supports: Plagueburst Crawlers
Lords of War: Mortarion
The first choice is single or double battalion. I think double sounds the go with you; take three squads of Plague Marines in one, and then another with a big Poxwalker squad, and perhaps two min squads of cultists, to hold back field objectives. These are needed, as any of our other units are all mid or close range, and too expensive to be left in the back. Then HQs. You should take a DP, and then either another DP, or Typhus, if you go more HAM on the Poxwalkers. If you take two pox walker squads, take Typhus. If one, probably another DP. Besides that you want to cheap out on HQs. A Chaos Lord for re-rolls, and perhaps a Malignant Plaguecaster. If you take Typhus, you probably don't need another caster, as our powers are not amazing.
The second choice to make is Mortarion or not. If you have Mortarion, then basically he will be your flashy centrepiece. HQs + troops for a battalion or two will take 1000 odd points, and with Mortarion that gives you only 500 points to play with. This will get you 2-3 odd vehicles. Note that with your fluffy (and cool) troop base, Mortarion alone will die very quickly, as you won't have the sufficient threat saturation to help him live, or even to warrant him being a giant distraction carnifex. But then he's just so damn cool.
And then finally fill out your 500-1000 points as you will. My TAC list would be: a 5 man Blightlord Terminator squad, 2x Bloat Drones, and 2x Plagueburst Crawlers (not taking Mortarion usually). This gives a nice, tough midfield, and a good diversity of threats. Of these, however, I'd probably be quickest to exchange out the Terminators.
So overall my fluffy mono-DG list looks roughly as follows:
2x DPs 1x Chaos Lord
1x Malignant Plaguecaster
3x 7 man Plague Marine squads
1x 20 man Pox walker squad
2x 10 man cultist squads
1x 5 man Blightlord Terminator squad
2x Bloat Drones
2x Plagueburst Crawlers
Everything's tough, and moderately killy, with lots of auto-hitting spooge-cannons. Just like DG should be!
Castozor wrote: Hello people, I recently decided to shelve my Orks for a while and pick up some other guys in green. Loving though, immovable type of armies Death Guard seemed like a natural fit. Now having read the codex it seems the Death Guard love to use infantry, which is also right up my alley. So now I´m wondering what kind of units/list should I buy/build for a mono DG list that wants to have a lot of PM units. I was thinking of including some Poxwalker units to capture objectives/screen/throw in the meatgrinder and some MBH for the cover save and much needed anti-tank.
But I'm hoping some of you can help me with what to get seeing as I have no experience playing any army other than Orks. Furthermore Mono-DG is what I want to play with PM at it's core. Also tips/tricks on how to play such a list are much appreciated!
It's amazing how many ork players are picking up Death Guard - welcome to the other green guys!
I suggest picking up two halves of Dark Imperium as first order, as you get two units of plague marines, two of our awesome drones, some characters and enough pox walkers to do whatever you want. If you do not need multiples of any of the characters in there, so if you can get the other stuff cheaper by not buying them twice, do it. The LoC is not amazing, but can still be used as chaos lord.
What you want on your marines are plasma guns and blight haulers - the cheapest way to get them is the ETB set, but you'll end up with a lot of similar looking duded. If you buy the regular box set, make sure to build them with close combat weapons, as its the only way to get those - bolter marines can be gotten from DIand ETB.
Afterwards, the stars of the codex are pretty much what Tony wrote. Daemon Princes are awesome because of their DR and the 2+ armor relic, PBC are nigh unkillable harrasment units or anti-tank and blight lords are basically your swiss army knife that can do whatever you need, wherever you need. Foul blight spawns are just like the SAG, but as flamers, you'll love those.
MBH are solid, but don't expect wonders from them. They are a pretty schizophrenic unit that tries to do many things at once, but can't. For example, it wants to cover your marines with its aura and block charges for them, but it also wants to use its high movement speed zoom ahead to get a juicy target in 12" range.
As for Mortarion, I would advise against buying him until you have a 2000 points army without him. In my experience, games with always play out the same, so running him over and over becomes monotonous. Being able to switch him out from time to time will be more enjoyable in the long run.
In my opinion you don't necessarily need cultists for objective camping, pox walkers do that job just fine. You spend 20 points more on them, but in turn they lose 0 casualties to morale and more often than not are resilient enough to eat up small harassing units like scouts or assault marines that tried to bully them off an objective.
Thanks for the advice guys. Guess I will start looking for a demon prince model and the DI set. Those lists look a lot lie what I had in mind so it´s good to hear it´s possible to play that way. Competitiveness is not my number one goal anyway as my local garage hammer meta is relatively tame, only mono/codex, mono/faction lists and no high power factions.
My gaming group looks very similar and DG are quite powerful in that context.
You can get away with a lot of things as DG don't really force you to build your army in a certain way. As long as you bring something to handle tanks and something that can get into your opponent's backfield, pretty much anything works.
The only real dud I have found so far are helbrutes, as they have some anti-synergy with other DG daemon engines - they stick out like a sore thumb and become obvious targets for all your opponent's anti-tank.
I kinda wished Hellbrutes were usable, because while I do love the Death Guard lore overall the whole corruption and demons thing doesn´t do it for me. Luckily all but one of my regular opponents don´t really use many vehicles/monsters.
Castozor wrote: I kinda wished Hellbrutes were usable, because while I do love the Death Guard lore overall the whole corruption and demons thing doesn´t do it for me. Luckily all but one of my regular opponents don´t really use many vehicles/monsters.
Ok I've just played vs new Ultramarines and I have to say I really got wrecked lol. They have so many tricks, buffs, stragames and Tigurius is just so strong. He had Marenus, tigurius, lieutenant, 10 intercessors, 10 hellblasters, 1 executioner, 10 scouts, 6 infiltrators and the ancient.
My PBCs flamed his troops, but they were always in cover and kept saving all at 3+. After they got destroyed by the hellblasters and executioner. My bearers holded 2 turns then got wiped. Only thing that did work was my DPs, but it wasn't enough sadly.
I really felt the difference in codexes during the game. Every turn he had some cool gimmick or trick while I only used cloud of flies and rerolls stratagem during the whole game.
Sorry if it seems like a rant but it wasn't a really enjoyable game ahahah.
Any tips on list building?
(I had DP + 8 marines + 3 PBC + 1 drone, Nurgle DP, poxgringer, 30 bearers, 6 nurglings)
It's the same against most codices though. Everyone burns through their CP by turn 2 and has to decide which ones to use, while DG just spends all their CP on cloud of flies and VotLW every turn.
Yea DG are not in a good place right now. They really need to get some love in the DEC update. I have written some proposed rule changes for them in the proposed rule forum.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I think I'll go with one prince with a sword and spewer and one with two talons. The one with the spewer will have wings. If points allow for it, I might put in a third prince, with talons. In terms of my psychics, I have two plaguecasters and I am thinking of adding in a traditional Chaos sorcerer for additional psychic abilities. Is this a good idea?
Just to check - everyone’s aware that DG can’t get Dark Hereticus, yeah
(Unless you take a Sorcerer on Palanquin and successfully negotiate a strict RAW reading of its powers, which a lot of TO’s will reject - along with the Index model itself)
If you ally in a Chaos Space marine detachment then Chaos Familiar can be played on a <Heretic Astartes> psyker to replace any of its powers with one from the Dark Hereticus discipline...
Bring three, have daemon prince support them and advance turn one, charge turn two. Bring other vehicles with similar profiles like MBH, PBC or FW dreads for target saturation.
Drones are pretty durable for what they cost, especially with a flesh mower, if someone focuses them down, that's a good thing, because they are most likely wasting their firepower.
So thanks for everything so far guys, but I have a new question. Assuming I want to use predators or land raiders for anti tank, which one is best and how should they be used? My friend Hell's me to use a land raider but I'm not convinced, seems to much of an all eggs in one basket kind of deal. Then again T8 vs T7 is appealing. So please let me know what is best.
Both are kinda overpriced for what they bring, which is Lascannons. I might say 3 Las Missile helbrutes would be better off for not degrading and actually getting a Legion trait, but between the two tanks, Land Raider can at least move and shoot, and with a 2+ save, you still get a save against most AP.
However, what I find happens most often is your cargo in the LR wants to get close, while the LR itself doesent, gets wrapped in CC and sits useless for a few turns.
Castozor wrote: So thanks for everything so far guys, but I have a new question. Assuming I want to use predators or land raiders for anti tank, which one is best and how should they be used? My friend Hell's me to use a land raider but I'm not convinced, seems to much of an all eggs in one basket kind of deal. Then again T8 vs T7 is appealing. So please let me know what is best.
I have recently added a predator with autocannon/lascannon to my list and it's awesome for mono-DG lists as it adds something DG otherwise is really bad at. The more important asset is the autocannon though, not the lascannon sponsons, so a landraider isn't exactly what I would be adding for anti-tank unless I plan to drive a bunch of Deathshrouds around with it. A wardog would probably a better option than either, as it has two autocannons.
Jidmah wrote: Bring three, have daemon prince support them and advance turn one, charge turn two. Bring other vehicles with similar profiles like MBH, PBC or FW dreads for target saturation.
Drones are pretty durable for what they cost, especially with a flesh mower, if someone focuses them down, that's a good thing, because they are most likely wasting their firepower.
I'm going to be having three haulers in my army most definitely. Crawlers are appealing as well. What weapons loadout should I give one? I do have sprues which I plan to use to create a Hellforged Contemptor Dreadnought with either soul burners or butcher cannons. I was going to use it in a Tzeentch army, but it could also go in this one. There's also a helbrute that I have, armed possible with lascannons and missiles, that I might put in there, and I might get a rhino as well to transport my more melee-oriented PM.
In addition to two battalions of Death Guard, I was thinking of having a Nurgle daemon detachment with plaguebearers, nurglings, a herald, plague drones, and a Great Unclean One. The GUO I was thinking of giving a doombell to allow me to bring back slain daemon engines, or maybe just kit it out for maximum melee potential. Is any of this a good idea?
When I take a Land Raider, I take the Hellforged (FW) variant that can switch bolters for flamers. Much better suited to shock troops delivery, if you can take out tanky melee units then it can play pretty aggressively. Mine’s a high candidate for Warptime when it comes out to play it ate a Phobos Captain recently
lindsay40k wrote: When I take a Land Raider, I take the Hellforged (FW) variant that can switch bolters for flamers. Much better suited to shock troops delivery, if you can take out tanky melee units then it can play pretty aggressively. Mine’s a high candidate for Warptime when it comes out to play it ate a Phobos Captain recently
How does it work out? Guessing it's not very 'efficient', but is it good enough to not hold you back?
lindsay40k wrote: When I take a Land Raider, I take the Hellforged (FW) variant that can switch bolters for flamers. Much better suited to shock troops delivery, if you can take out tanky melee units then it can play pretty aggressively. Mine’s a high candidate for Warptime when it comes out to play it ate a Phobos Captain recently
How does it work out? Guessing it's not very 'efficient', but is it good enough to not hold you back?
What do you put in it?
It’s ok. Warptime is pretty important. A Spartan does the same thing much, much better, due to being able to shoot whilst in combat. It’s not going to make a splash in competitive any time soon. I usually put Berzerkers in it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Even then, two rhinos full of Berzerkers would outperform it.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm thinking of getting some blightkings for possessed, but are they worth it in a DG army? Also, what about dual wielding plague cleavers?
I cant speak as to whether they're worth it or not, but I was using blightkings as spawn and possessed in 7th and the models work great for this. The blightkings kit is a treasure trove of conversion fodder.
ArcaneHorror wrote: I'm thinking of getting some blightkings for possessed, but are they worth it in a DG army? Also, what about dual wielding plague cleavers?
DG Possessed have got a very unusual play in a Nurgle army.
By teaming up with a Blightbringer, and a CSM Warptimer (Word Bearers are best at this with the new stuff), and starting near a Gnarlmaw, they can easily charge on the first turn. Maybe even make the home run before even charging!
If they had DR, this would be fantastic. As it is, DG Possessed want to stack a few damage-buffing spells (which a melee army will bring anyway, and won’t have much else to cast them on in the first turn) to be as punchy as their Lorgarian equivalents.
You can technically field a DG Warptimer by taking a Palanquin Sorcerer. This is due to an accident of rules editing oversight, which will probably be withdrawn if some big event gets won by exploiting it - but that’s now less likely, as someone who really wants to do this sort of thing competitively will just take a WB or Ahriman to do it.
Actually any DG psyker can get Warptime if there is also a vanilla CSM detachment. You just have to spend a CP on the Spell Familiar stratagem (I think that's what it's called, don't have my book handy right now) since it only requires a HERETIC ASTARTES character, which Death Guard are.
Or, since you’re bringing CSM anyway, just bring a Word Bearers Sorcerer, and for that 1CP give them a relic that makes them cast it at +1 and know three of the excellent DH spells, with the ability to force a cast to succeed. Death Hex really takes the uncertainty out of a duel with Guilliman or worse
Actually, AL are pretty interesting, too. That ‘make enemy vehicles explode’ Strat is a handy compliment to DG’s own kamikaze Rhinos and such
So I'm going through and calculating my points for my DG army. I went to a little over 2200 points, so I had to remove so units (helbrute with fist and twin lascannons, blightspawn, putrifier, CL with power axe and meltagun, LoC with plaguereaper). I'll also be removing the Icon of Despair on one of my PM and giving him a plague knife instead. All in all, that puts me down to 1755 points. I do currently have two blightbringers because of their buffing abilities. Is this a good idea, or do I only need one? To bring back up my points, I'm thinking of putting in a bloat drone with a fleshmower as well as DS terminators to guard my warlord, a DP with double talons. Is this a good strategy?
ArcaneHorror wrote: So I'm going through and calculating my points for my DG army. I went to a little over 2200 points, so I had to remove so units (helbrute with fist and twin lascannons, blightspawn, putrifier, CL with power axe and meltagun, LoC with plaguereaper). I'll also be removing the Icon of Despair on one of my PM and giving him a plague knife instead. All in all, that puts me down to 1755 points. I do currently have two blightbringers because of their buffing abilities. Is this a good idea, or do I only need one? To bring back up my points, I'm thinking of putting in a bloat drone with a fleshmower as well as DS terminators to guard my warlord, a DP with double talons. Is this a good strategy?
Hard to tell without knowing your full list but doubt you need 2 blightbringers, unless you're running lots of pox. You'd be better off bringing your blightspawn. DS termies are costly and I only really use mine when running Morty. Again, doubt you'd really need them to guard a prince who can't be targeted due to character rules. Fleshmowers are awesome but don't know if it'd fit with the army you aim to build. Any chance of more info would be great. Hope this helps.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The icon of despair sucks. Don't bother with it.
ArcaneHorror wrote: So I'm going through and calculating my points for my DG army. I went to a little over 2200 points, so I had to remove so units (helbrute with fist and twin lascannons, blightspawn, putrifier, CL with power axe and meltagun, LoC with plaguereaper). I'll also be removing the Icon of Despair on one of my PM and giving him a plague knife instead. All in all, that puts me down to 1755 points. I do currently have two blightbringers because of their buffing abilities. Is this a good idea, or do I only need one? To bring back up my points, I'm thinking of putting in a bloat drone with a fleshmower as well as DS terminators to guard my warlord, a DP with double talons. Is this a good strategy?
Hard to tell without knowing your full list but doubt you need 2 blightbringers, unless you're running lots of pox. You'd be better off bringing your blightspawn. DS termies are costly and I only really use mine when running Morty. Again, doubt you'd really need them to guard a prince who can't be targeted due to character rules. Fleshmowers are awesome but don't know if it'd fit with the army you aim to build. Any chance of more info would be great. Hope this helps.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The icon of despair sucks. Don't bother with it.
Here's my current army as it stands, in no particular order or organization. I just picked up each model and wrote down the points:
Spoiler:
Daemon Prince with Talons: 156
Daemon Prince with Wings, Sword, and Plague Spewer: 195
Myphitic Blight Hauler: 75
Myphitic Blight Hauler: 75
Myphitic Blight Hauler: 75
Foetid Bloat Drone with Plaguespitter: 116
Plague Surgeon: 54
Plague Surgeon: 54
Lord of Contagion with Manreaper: 112
Noxious Blightbringer: 57
Noxious Blightbringer: 57
Malignant Plaguecaster: 110
Tallyman: 57
Plague Champion with Power Fist, Plaguesword, and Bolt pistol: 26
Plague Champion with Power Fist, Plaguesword, and Boltgun: 26
Plague Champion with Power Fist and Plasma Pistol: 30
Plague Champion with Power Fist, Plague Knife, and Plasma Gun: 36
Plague Marine with Boltgun and Plague Knife: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun and Plague Knife: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun and Plague Knife: 16
Plague Marine with Blight Launcher and Plague Knife: 26
Plague Marine with Boltgun and Plague Knife: 16
Plague Marine with Flail of Corruption: 28
Plague Marine with Plague Knife and Plasma Gun: 27
Plague Marine with Boltgun: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun and Plague Knife: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun and Plague Knife: 16
Plague Marine with Bubotic Axe and Mace of Contagion: 28
Plague Marine with Boltgun: 16
Plague Marine with Blight Launcher: 26
Plague Marine with Blight Launcher: 26
Plague Marine with Meltagun and Plague Knife: 30
Plague Marine with Boltgun and Plague Knife: 16
Plague Marine with Plague Spewer: 31
Plague Marine with Boltgun: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun and Plague Knife: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun and Plague Knife: 16
Plague Marine with Great Plague Cleaver: 31
Plague Marine with two Plague Knives and Plasma Gun: 27
Points: 1755
When you say that the DP can't be targeted, do you mean by the enemy or with the special protection rules that the BL are used for? I checked the other day and the DP does have the 'character' keyword.
shabadoit wrote: The Blight haulers and drone are missing the points for their wargear.
I wouldn't bring 2 plague surgeons or blightbringers though, so that would free up a lot of those points
You're right. The drone should be 141 and the haulers should be 110. This brings the points up to 1885. Removing a surgeon and blightbringer reduces it back down to 1781. I was thinking of putting in a rhino which would bring me to 1864. I do have a bunch of cultists and poxwalkers, do you think that I should add some of those?
The haulers should be 117 (75+22+20) and the drone is 158 (unfortunately you have to pay for the plague probe). Battlescribe does all that for you
Not sure what point total you're going for - 2k? Honestly I'd just try to play some games and find the units that you like then build around them, although that isn't going to be super competitive obviously
Thanks. I actually forgot to factor in both plaguespitters and calculated only one, while for the haulers, I calculated in a combi-melta, not a multi-melta. I am trying to go for a 2k army at the moment. Right now, I'm at 2011 points which obviously goes over. If I got rid of the rhino, I could put in a unit of poxwalkers and stay under 2k, but the rhino strikes me as a good way to transport my melee-oriented PM. I don't want to get rid of any of my PM as I've gone through alot of work to make each one unique in its design. I'm also up in the air about keeping the blightspawn, as I'm not sure about its effectiveness in the heat of battle, but I do love the model and some of its abilities. Here is my too-large army as it stands now:
Spoiler:
Daemon Prince with Talons: 156
Daemon Prince with Wings, Sword, and Plague Spewer: 195
Myphitic Blight Hauler: 117
Myphitic Blight Hauler: 117
Myphitic Blight Hauler: 117
Foetid Bloat Drone with Plaguespitters and Probe: 158
Plague Surgeon: 54
Lord of Contagion with Manreaper: 112
Noxious Blightbringer: 57
Malignant Plaguecaster: 110
Tallyman: 57
Foul Blightspawn: 77
Plague Champion with Power Fist, Plaguesword, and Bolt pistol: 26
Plague Champion with Power Fist, Plaguesword, and Boltgun: 26
Plague Champion with Power Fist and Plasma Pistol: 30
Plague Champion with Power Fist, Plague Knife, and Plasma Gun: 36
Plague Marine with Boltgun and Plague Knife: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun and Plague Knife: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun and Plague Knife: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun and Plague Knife: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun and Plague Knife: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun and Plague Knife: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun and Plague Knife: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun and Plague Knife: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun and Plague Knife: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun: 16
Plague Marine with Boltgun: 16
Plague Marine with Blight Launcher and Plague Knife: 26
Plague Marine with Blight Launcher: 26
Plague Marine with Blight Launcher: 26
Plague Marine with Flail of Corruption: 28
Plague Marine with Plague Knife and Plasma Gun: 27
Plague Marine with Bubotic Axe and Mace of Contagion: 28
Plague Marine with Meltagun and Plague Knife: 30
Plague Marine with Plague Spewer: 31
Plague Marine with Great Plague Cleaver: 31
Plague Marine with two Plague Knives and Plasma Gun: 27
Chaos Rhino with Combi-bolter and Havoc Launcher: 78
Blightspawns are hands down one of our nastier units, easy to hide and capable of melting armour and other characters quite easily. Wouldn't start shaving stuff off from there.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Thanks. I actually forgot to factor in both plaguespitters and calculated only one, while for the haulers, I calculated in a combi-melta, not a multi-melta. I am trying to go for a 2k army at the moment. Right now, I'm at 2011 points which obviously goes over. If I got rid of the rhino, I could put in a unit of poxwalkers and stay under 2k, but the rhino strikes me as a good way to transport my melee-oriented PM. I don't want to get rid of any of my PM as I've gone through alot of work to make each one unique in its design. I'm also up in the air about keeping the blightspawn, as I'm not sure about its effectiveness in the heat of battle, but I do love the model and some of its abilities. Here is my too-large army as it stands
Points: 2011[/spoiler]
Love marines. Great fun to play with.
From this list I'd probably cut the Lord of Contagion or maybe the surgeon. The surgeon will work with your melee though. The Lord, although an awesome model, really isn't the best. In my xp, he deepstrikes, fails the charge, and then dies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You got a cheap chaos lord you can swap in for the Lord of Contagion?
ArcaneHorror wrote: Thanks. I actually forgot to factor in both plaguespitters and calculated only one, while for the haulers, I calculated in a combi-melta, not a multi-melta. I am trying to go for a 2k army at the moment. Right now, I'm at 2011 points which obviously goes over. If I got rid of the rhino, I could put in a unit of poxwalkers and stay under 2k, but the rhino strikes me as a good way to transport my melee-oriented PM. I don't want to get rid of any of my PM as I've gone through alot of work to make each one unique in its design. I'm also up in the air about keeping the blightspawn, as I'm not sure about its effectiveness in the heat of battle, but I do love the model and some of its abilities. Here is my too-large army as it stands
Points: 2011[/spoiler]
Love marines. Great fun to play with.
From this list I'd probably cut the Lord of Contagion or maybe the surgeon. The surgeon will work with your melee though. The Lord, although an awesome model, really isn't the best. In my xp, he deepstrikes, fails the charge, and then dies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You got a cheap chaos lord you can swap in for the Lord of Contagion?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or a sorcerer?
I do have an aspiring champion model that could work well as a lord with a power axe and meltagun. If I replaced the LoC with this, then I would be down to 1992 points.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lords are worth their weight just for the reroll.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The list you've now got, I reckon you should give it a go. You'll then start to realise which units you like and how you prefer to run our foetid throng.
I put my hope in CA 2019 for blight hauler cost reduction and other unuse units, do you think this CA will include new datasheet (in case of change unit ability) ?
PS. any of you have a link or a guide about how to play 10 blightlord ? i know which wargear they will equip but don't know how to play them like when to deploy and what do we need them to do after deploy.
lare2 wrote: Anyone managed to find any info on new points? I see Deathshroud are cheaper.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Down to 25pts. Love that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Daemon prince as well dropping 15. Unexpected but will take it.
Down to 25 not including the 17-point scythe. You may have realised that, but others reading your post might have thought they were actually going to be 25 point deathshrouds lol. Which would be awesome, but unlikely :p
kaiseric wrote: I put my hope in CA 2019 for blight hauler cost reduction and other unuse units, do you think this CA will include new datasheet (in case of change unit ability) ?
PS. any of you have a link or a guide about how to play 10 blightlord ? i know which wargear they will equip but don't know how to play them like when to deploy and what do we need them to do after deploy.
lare2 wrote: Anyone managed to find any info on new points? I see Deathshroud are cheaper.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Down to 25pts. Love that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Daemon prince as well dropping 15. Unexpected but will take it.
Down to 25 not including the 17-point scythe. You may have realised that, but others reading your post might have thought they were actually going to be 25 point deathshrouds lol. Which would be awesome, but unlikely :p
Nice one. Cheers for giving further clarity. Gonna have to definitely dust mine off.
lare2 wrote: Anyone managed to find any info on new points? I see Deathshroud are cheaper.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Down to 25pts. Love that.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Daemon prince as well dropping 15. Unexpected but will take it.
Down to 25 not including the 17-point scythe. You may have realised that, but others reading your post might have thought they were actually going to be 25 point deathshrouds lol. Which would be awesome, but unlikely :p
25ppm after wargear.. I wish! haha
Still, a 30 point reduction for the unit makes them somewhat less of dud points but you're still better off just taking Blightlords instead. If only Deathshroud had a better delivery system or to keep pace with the characters they're supposed to be protecting.
I really hope the rumor about the PM being raised in points is not true. They already are more expensive than most other troop-level Marines, and the Death Guard as a whole already seems to be falling behind due to the buffs other armies are getting.
If that rumor pans out to be true then they should also go up to 2 wounds. I'm happy for them to be Intercessor priced if it means same stats with DR and plague goodies on top
NurglesR0T wrote:25ppm after wargear.. I wish! haha
Still, a 30 point reduction for the unit makes them somewhat less of dud points but you're still better off just taking Blightlords instead. If only Deathshroud had a better delivery system or to keep pace with the characters they're supposed to be protecting.
If the landraider wouldn't suck as much as it does, a scythe bus with Deathshrouds and Typhus could be pretty awesome, he is a monster in combat with six attacks. Maybe thrown in foul blightspawn and/or tallyman for flamer action and re-rolls.
NurglesR0T wrote:If that rumor pans out to be true then they should also go up to 2 wounds. I'm happy for them to be Intercessor priced if it means same stats with DR and plague goodies on top
The rumors surrounding this have been confirmed to be false by a reliable source of previous rumors.
The DP of Nurgle, and Tzeentch are better than Chaos Daemon Prince CSM, but the CD Daemon ones can get DR also, so you would have to make different points for all of them, and then they wouldn't be Rule of 3 anymore exactly...
NurglesR0T wrote:If that rumor pans out to be true then they should also go up to 2 wounds. I'm happy for them to be Intercessor priced if it means same stats with DR and plague goodies on top
The rumors surrounding this have been confirmed to be false by a reliable source of previous rumors.
Thought as much - it sounded really far fetched to begin with
Nightlord1987 wrote: 4 pt Poxwalkers and 8 pt Plaguebearers seems nice to me... considering I have only 10 PBs and over 80 walkers.
Wish the Predators went down more points, Wardogs still outclass them by miles.
Agreed, I am wondering if three squads of 20 poxwalkers will be worth it compared to spamming cultists again. I am not planning on running Typhus, but I may as the model is a beast and he is way cheaper now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Everything I've heard so far from random fb posts... no idea if true or not.
Cultist down 1pt
Land raider down 20pt
Terminator Lord down 10pt
Predator down 5pt
Rhino up 15pt
Spawn down 5pt
Helbrute down 20pt
MPC down 15pt
MBH down 15pt
Possessed down 3pt
Pox down 2pt
Sorcerer down 10pt
Terminator sorcerer down 2pts
Typhus down 20pt
Plaguebearers up 1pt
Combi melta down 4pt
Entropy cannon down 5pt
Plague spewer down 2pt
If true, this is savings on pretty much every list I ruin.
Didn't one of the leaks show that PM are down to 14 points? That would work quite well for me as right now they take up all of my troop infantry and thus alot of points.
ArcaneHorror wrote: Didn't one of the leaks show that PM are down to 14 points? That would work quite well for me as right now they take up all of my troop infantry and thus alot of points.
Plague Marines look like they're going up... maybe 18pts...
This is devil's way of making hype for upcoming releases.. wouldn' be suprised if GW let stuff come out during the two week period in small crums.. In my perfect world all these rule and point stuff should be free at GW pages. After all we need their plastic to use the rules..
Well, back to reality. There's now sources for 14/18 p plague marines and the picture quality in that particular DG page just is awful, why even post such a shoddy picture unless it's intentional.
PM were already over expensive vs. Intercessors, T5 and DR doesn't make up for it.
The more we get these annual point drops, my gaming group is more and more into 1500p games.. those lini-tourneys don't need a chess-clock to finish in time.
Access to Lord Disco makes me think if it's something to add on in our armies . What we really lack is long range fire support from mono-builds. Entropy cannons even with the points drop hasn't work out for me so I've been all with my screen&flame stuff PBC to accompany my arch-contaminator DP (which seems to go down to 165p) and plague spitting bloat-drones.
Well CA19 didn’t really help us out much. Watched some videos today. I’ll keep everything up to date and add units below:
The good:
-Blighthaulers -15 (102)
-Deathshroud terminators -10 (42)
-Bloat drones -20 (probes went down to 5pts)
-Typhus -20 (150)
-Poxwalkers -1 (5)
-plague caster (I think that is his name) -15 (95)
-cultists -1 (4)
-Spawn -5 (20)
-Lord of Contagion -17 (95 before weapon)
-Rhino - (65)
The bad:
-Our demon princes didn’t get the pt drop
-no change to plague marines points or wounds
-there are other small reductions.
Fyi, I added up upgrades and I got different points..
Pm still 16
Deathshroud is 25 + 17 manreaper 42p tot.
Foetid bloat-drones with spitters now at 138p. 99+17+17+5
MBH 102
Nurgle DP with wings still 180
Helbrute 102p stock
Blightlords.42p with combibolter and axe
Termie sorc 105
Malignant plaguecaster only 95p
Poxwalkers/cultists 5/4p
I'm a bit bumped about PM still being 16 but overall I can 't complain with these changes. My imagined list got cheaper so I can get in an extra Hellbrute. Would have been a PM squad but we are paying 5 points extra over CSM just for +1T and DR. Not really worth it imo.
Castozor wrote: I'm a bit bumped about PM still being 16 but overall I can 't complain with these changes. My imagined list got cheaper so I can get in an extra Hellbrute. Would have been a PM squad but we are paying 5 points extra over CSM just for +1T and DR. Not really worth it imo.
Poxwalkers and cultists are the only troop options that makes sense now.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyone have list ideas? I still can’t see a viable one in the marine meta. We have units that are good, but not great. I think PBCs, MBHs, Blightlords, bloat drones, and foul blightspawns are all solid (none even use our useless chapter trait). I still find it hard to get them into a list and get support units. I still feel I lack the firepower and survivability required to win.
It is a bit odd the DG prince's got bumped up when Nurgle ones are the same. Maybe it's something that will be cleared up but I won't hold my breath.
Guess you can still run the Nurgle Prince with a bunch of daemon engines in a Nurgle detachment and save the points if you can cover the non daemon rerolls elsewhere.
Horde lists with Typhus and some max squads of Pox Walkers sound delicious for board control now. I'm thinking 4 max squads and then whatever to supplement them.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Horde lists with Typhus and some max squads of Pox Walkers sound delicious for board control now. I'm thinking 4 max squads and then whatever to supplement them.
They are slow as feth though, and they still fly off the board if someone wants them gone.
shabadoit wrote: It is a bit odd the DG prince's got bumped up when Nurgle ones are the same. Maybe it's something that will be cleared up but I won't hold my breath.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Horde lists with Typhus and some max squads of Pox Walkers sound delicious for board control now. I'm thinking 4 max squads and then whatever to supplement them.
They are slow as feth though, and they still fly off the board if someone wants them gone.
They're not so bad as long you don't expect them to be going for linebreaker. Several blob units zoning out the midfield and your DZ can be incredibly annoying to shift, plus it's always fun catching people off guard when they realise one of those units is S5 T5
And if they get targeted down.. well those 60 pox walkers are only 300 points, which will soak up an armies worth of shooting.
shabadoit wrote: It is a bit odd the DG prince's got bumped up when Nurgle ones are the same. Maybe it's something that will be cleared up but I won't hold my breath.
Did it get an increase or still stay the same?
Sorry, DG one is the same, Nurgle one was made cheaper. The words I used don't actually mean what I meant...
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Horde lists with Typhus and some max squads of Pox Walkers sound delicious for board control now. I'm thinking 4 max squads and then whatever to supplement them.
They are slow as feth though, and they still fly off the board if someone wants them gone.
They're not so bad as long you don't expect them to be going for linebreaker. Several blob units zoning out the midfield and your DZ can be incredibly annoying to shift, plus it's always fun catching people off guard when they realise one of those units is S5 T5
And if they get targeted down.. well those 60 pox walkers are only 300 points, which will soak up an armies worth of shooting.
Exactly. I'm not looking to get anywhere. I'm expecting them to stay put, and for the price + morale immunity they're good to stay put.
I'm a bit confused about the difference between the Daemon Prince of Nurgle and the Death Guard one. The model listed in the DG codex is called 'of Nurgle,' yet it has the DG codeword. The one in the CSM codex seems to be quite similar, only it does not have disgusting resilience. Is the DG one the bloated unit with the fat sword, or am I missing something here?
NurglesR0T wrote: They're not so bad as long you don't expect them to be going for linebreaker. Several blob units zoning out the midfield and your DZ can be incredibly annoying to shift, plus it's always fun catching people off guard when they realise one of those units is S5 T5
I'm not saying that pox walkers are bad, I just don't see a point in buffing them. My opponents usually aren't caught off guard by T5 pox walkers after they have seen that happen once - in fact I get asked for the toughness of every pox walker mob every game, even if Typhus isn't even part of my list. Which just means that one unit of pox walker isn't getting shot, unless they have S6 weaponry like assault cannons and don't care either way. In addition, psychic powers can fail or be denied, which means you opponent can use that opportunity to get rid of them.
Typhus himself only moves 4" a turn with halved advances, meaning he is even slower than pox walkers - blobs with good advance rolls will just leave him in the dust and you'll lose a lot of area by chaining towards him. Even at 155 points he is not worth the minimal bump in durability, as you could always just get more pox walkers instead - or replace all of them with plague bearers which have the Typhus buff and miasma as part of their rules.
To get your points back for Typhus, he needs to get into combat, which will never happen if you deploy him in your deployment zone unless you enemy is coming towards you. I've had much more success just deep striking him behind a mob of pox walkers that has already crossed most of the board, or near blightlords or drones, if juicy targets for his meanreaper or smite are nearby.
And if they get targeted down.. well those 60 pox walkers are only 300 points, which will soak up an armies worth of shooting.
Not really... the easiest way to get rid of a unit of pox walker is charging it - either with lots of attacks like boyz, zerkers or genestealers or with something they can't kill - like a trukk or rhino.
Otherwise they usually get dwindled down by units which have nothing better to shoot, like troops camping on objectives, random vehicle hull/pintle-mounted guns.
You use the Jump Lord when you cant afford a Prince. I brought a Jump Lord to a summer GT this year armed with a Combi Plasma and Chain axe. Its job was to buff PBCs and Deredeos while Chaos Knights and Daemons do other stuff.
Jidmah wrote: I just use a regular lord for that, I don't see a point for the jump pack on a pure buff bot - when he advances, he is just as fast as the vehicles.
You clearly roll better than I do. Disgustingly Resilient - can make that everytime. Runs and charges? I'm getting 1s everytime.
Jump pack is more flexible, when trying to spread out Arch Contaminator and hit rerolls. although I do have a Footlord for backfield babysitting if the need ever arises.
Jump Pack> Foot> Terminator Armor.
I dont see the use for PlagueCasters if you're not buffing Infantry models, so Raptor Lord was my go to.
Automatically Appended Next Post: He will now be joining the Iron Warriors instead.
Jidmah wrote: Legends removed Sorcerer on Palanquin as option for Death Guard - he now is CSM only.
As well as jump pack lords and sorcerers for us.
Not that I ever ran either mind...
I haven't seen a single DG list use either unit since the codex released, T4 and no DR makes them pointless in the first place.
CSM jump pack sorcerers on the other hand come quite handy for that sweet warptime, death hex and prescience.
At least if you try to mantain style with him instead of just using a TS exalted or Ahriman allied in. Really glad they didn`t cut the jumppack sorcerer from CSM since i finished mine this weekend to run with my death guard.
Jidmah wrote: Legends removed Sorcerer on Palanquin as option for Death Guard - he now is CSM only.
As well as jump pack lords and sorcerers for us.
Not that I ever ran either mind...
I haven't seen a single DG list use either unit since the codex released, T4 and no DR makes them pointless in the first place.
CSM jump pack sorcerers on the other hand come quite handy for that sweet warptime, death hex and prescience.
At least if you try to mantain style with him instead of just using a TS exalted or Ahriman allied in. Really glad they didn`t cut the jumppack sorcerer from CSM since i finished mine this weekend to run with my death guard.
Spoiler:
That is an amazing conversion! Very fluid and looks like it could be an actual model for sale
I heard a rumor that Disco Lords made their way into the deathguard points list in CA-19. Is this just a silly wish-listing someone had or is it legit?
drakerocket wrote: I heard a rumor that Disco Lords made their way into the deathguard points list in CA-19. Is this just a silly wish-listing someone had or is it legit?
For my cultist unit, should I put in a group of just autoguns or mix it up with guys with pistols and melee weapons? The autoguns have a much longer range, but the melee weapons allow for the extra attack. Granted, none of these weapons are of course all that powerful, but I want to get the best loadout as possible.
When it comes to the Disco Lord, while it would be cool if DG could take one, it could be helpful in a separate allied, Nurgle-marked CSM battalion.
I actually wondered about that before, why don´t we have warpsmiths? We don't get all the deamon engines of our brother CSM legions but we have some of our own that I assume are created in much the same way.
I guess the concept of a warpsmith doesn't really work when all their creations rust and rot, plus most DG daemon engines are just as much flesh as metal.
I guess the Tallyman serves this role - I really hope that in the next DG iteration they give the Tallyman a prayer table similar to the Dark Apostle but Nurgle themed.
kaiseric wrote: i just saw PBC with entropy cannon cost is cheaper (136) than spitter (140), do they worth to take it or not?
I've used them quite a bit as a source of AT - whilst they are good, they suffer never hitting on better than a 4+ and ideally requiring a cheap chaos lord to babysit to improve the odds adds to the cost. I can see why most prefer the spitters and advance them up the board as they work too well with arch-contaminator
Why would you do that? They aren't actually great in combat.
If you bother to run transports both plague marines, possessed and terminators are really deadly in combat, use them.
Jidmah wrote: Why would you do that? They aren't actually great in combat.
If you bother to run transports both plague marines, possessed and terminators are really deadly in combat, use them.
Definitely not to kill things. Was thinking it'd tie stuff up for a turn or 2 in combat whilst the rest of my army works its magic.
I've used Poxwalkers quite a bit in both casual and competitive settings.
They have only been into actual consequential combat a handful of times. I've created maybe 2 Walkers with their base ability and maybe 6 with the strat. They are so underwhelming if you have any expectations for them beyond standing on objectives and requiring overkill to kill them due to morale immunity and DR. Now that they are cheaper, you can run more other things with the points saving.
Again, I've tried Typhus and Necrosis, with a 20 man blob Vitality ed and they still sucked.
Depends on the job but yeah, a fleshmower bloat drone is a mere 16 points more than a 20 man blob of walkers and will be far more of a threat.
Post CA, pox walkers I now see them as essentially cultists with DR and morale immune - park them on an objective, try to hide and if(when) they die meh. Best case scenario your opponent spends more points then they are to remove them.
Played a game recently where someone sent a tooled up Death Company to take out a unit of poxes on an objective because he drew "Secure Objective 1" - was more than happy for that trade off as it meant my blightlords etc were unharmed and drove up the other flank winning me the game.. was a close one though and if he ignored the walkers with that DC I would have most likely lost.
Anyone tried the Deathshroud Terminators since the points drop? Wow this guys hit like a freight train! For only 126pts they are a steal. I’m thinking of dropping my blightlords to add two units of death shroud. I lose the shooting, but gain tons of str 8 close combat goodness. Also, the boat drones with flesh mowers is a very good deal at 117pts. Getting 10x STR 8 attacks on the charge is very solid.
Hey I can't decide whether my third HQ should be a terminator lord or socerer?
Im already going with two winged princes.
What has the malignant plague caster got over a terminator sorc? Do you think two Princes is enough psykers?
Typhus seems expensive compared to the term sorcerer since i don't envision running many pox walkers. Maybe I'm underestimating him tho?
I have a black legion army so if i want csm powers i can ally in no problem but I'd really like to build a pure DG army.
The contagion discipline doesn't have a huge array of options in it does it though?
What's the general consensus regarding the points for winged DPs? Do we think the lack of adjustment compared to CSM is an error?
I find it strange that the change is to the wings upgrade, rather than the prince. If they reduced the prince only for CSM i'd understand because of DR. But what's the justifcation for a winged DG version being worth so many extra points over the regular.
Before the points change I could see myself taking a walking prince in a death guard army but never CSM...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I thought I had my head around it but now I'm not sure. Can I take one of my daemon princes as an index version and then get access to dark hereticus? Or even put a csm daemon prince in without breaking the DG legion trait?
Abaddon303 wrote: Typhus seems expensive compared to the term sorcerer since i don't envision running many pox walkers. Maybe I'm underestimating him tho?
Ignore the pox walker part. He is very durable and hits like a trukk with his master-crafted manreaper, and can cast two powers. I've had him flip tanks all by himself.
What's the general consensus regarding the points for winged DPs? Do we think the lack of adjustment compared to CSM is an error?
It very likely to be intended, as the DG and TS princes are better than the CSM one.
Also, I thought I had my head around it but now I'm not sure. Can I take one of my daemon princes as an index version and then get access to dark hereticus? Or even put a csm daemon prince in without breaking the DG legion trait?
1) The rules forbid you from using the index for anything but wargear if there is a data sheet in any other codex. So the "Daemon Prince" datasheet can no longer have the Death Guard keyword 2) Indexes are confirmed to go away by next year, which is soon
In general, many DG units don't benefit from the legion trait anyways(vehicles, pox walkers), just put them in a detachment with the CSM prince.
The death guard DP is actually worse than the Daemon one that got the points drop. The Loci make them do far more damage. I think it would be stupid that if GW left the DGDP at higher points because it had access to some good relics/traits.
Has anyone tried Death Shroud Terminators since the points cost. They now seem to be a great bargain.
This is my point. I'd understand the Prince itself dropping but not the wings. It makes taking a winged Prince over a regular for CSM a no brainer.
For DG its not the wings that make the big difference, it's the built in disgustingly resilient.
They should have kept wings at 24pts across the board but adjusted the DP price depending on the codex and abilities
broxus wrote: The death guard DP is actually worse than the Daemon one that got the points drop. The Loci make them do far more damage. I think it would be stupid that if GW left the DGDP at higher points because it had access to some good relics/traits.
I think being a better unit through relic and warlord traits very much makes a unit worth some points. In addition, the Daemon Prince of Chaos also doesn't buff Death Guard and doesn't get DttFE or Hateful Assault.
broxus wrote: The death guard DP is actually worse than the Daemon one that got the points drop. The Loci make them do far more damage. I think it would be stupid that if GW left the DGDP at higher points because it had access to some good relics/traits.
I think being a better unit through relic and warlord traits very much makes a unit worth some points. In addition, the Daemon Prince of Chaos also doesn't buff Death Guard and doesn't get DttFE or Hateful Assault.
Jidmah wrote: So if one unit sees play and one doesn't, they both should go down in points because they share a profile? Cool story.
Yes just like they do in every other codex. Also, what army wasn’t playing daemon princes and did they even need a price drop? They were already one of the most common units in the game. Death Guard must take them because every other HQ is garbage. It makes no sense DG players should pay more points for a DP that is worse than others but costs more points because I may put a specific relic/trait on them.
CSM and daemons weren't, that's why their points dropped. Everyone was running Daemon Princes of Tzeench, and those didn't go down.
In addition, a stupid idea stays a stupid idea, even if everybody does it. That units have different worth depending on their stratagems, army rules and relics is the sole reason why we have this nu-marine mess right now.
Jidmah wrote: CSM and daemons weren't, that's why their points dropped. Everyone was running Daemon Princes of Tzeench, and those didn't go down.
In addition, a stupid idea stays a stupid idea, even if everybody does it. That units have different worth depending on their stratagems, army rules and relics is the sole reason why we have this nu-marine mess right now.
I guess you forgot the Khorne DP everyone runs that can solo a knight. Maybe in 9th edition it will be the way you say, but it in 8th you don’t charge extra points for relics and traits. Since one plays DG as an army guess all the units should get a points drop also to include the DP.
Can you provide a link to a top 4 placement with that DP?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
broxus wrote: but it in 8th you don’t charge extra points for relics and traits.
Understood. You are saying that GW should continue with a inherently flawed system instead of gradually improving on it, because you might benefit from it. So basically you are fine with all daemon princes getting the same point increase that TS got, right?
Jidmah wrote: Can you provide a link to a top 4 placement with that DP?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
broxus wrote: but it in 8th you don’t charge extra points for relics and traits.
Understood. You are saying that GW should continue with a inherently flawed system instead of gradually improving on it, because you might benefit from it.
So basically you are fine with all daemon princes getting the same point increase that TS got, right?
Sure can you please send me a link showing a Death Guard DP in a top spot? Or any death guard list in a top spot.
To change the things the way you want them it is impossible to balance and would require an entire edition, Codex, and rules rewrite. Since that isn’t going happen they need to reduce the Death Guard DP to keep it in line with all the other 1x spell casting DPs.
August 2019 Wars on the Shore, First Place taken by guy running 1 Daemon Prince of Nurgle, 2 Daemon Princes of Tzeench and 0 others. And I found that without even trying, just have a look at any chaos soup with blight lords in it, all of them run the daemon prince of nurgle as HQ.
Since you have refuted your own argument, not answered to single of my arguments and are now moving goal posts, we are done here.
It's basically just "Wah wah, I want what they got".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brymm wrote: Jim Vessel did go on his tear end of 2018 and start of 2019 using that Khorne prince. Ancient history but was incredible in the knight heavy meta.
I'm pretty sure it got killed by limiting daemon princes to 3 though, I don't think anyone would pick it over a DP of Tzeench or Nurgle.
Jidmah wrote: August 2019 Wars on the Shore, First Place taken by guy running 1 Daemon Prince of Nurgle, 2 Daemon Princes of Tzeench and 0 others. And I found that without even trying, just have a look at any chaos soup with blight lords in it, all of them run the daemon prince of nurgle as HQ.
Since you have refuted your own argument, not answered to single of my arguments and are now moving goal posts, we are done here.
It's basically just "Wah wah, I want what they got".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brymm wrote: Jim Vessel did go on his tear end of 2018 and start of 2019 using that Khorne prince. Ancient history but was incredible in the knight heavy meta.
I'm pretty sure it got killed by limiting daemon princes to 3 though, I don't think anyone would pick it over a DP of Tzeench or Nurgle.
You are joking right? A 30 person local tournament is what you are going to cite. Jim Vesal won Adepticon with a Khorne Daemon Prince is that not enough proof for you? Remember it was just reduced in points unlike the DG daemon prince. You are obviously just trolling this thread, a space marine player trying to maintain your favorable meta, or don’t actually play 40k. Regardless, I’m done responding to these nonsensical arguments.
Jidmah wrote: August 2019 Wars on the Shore, First Place taken by guy running 1 Daemon Prince of Nurgle, 2 Daemon Princes of Tzeench and 0 others. And I found that without even trying, just have a look at any chaos soup with blight lords in it, all of them run the daemon prince of nurgle as HQ.
Since you have refuted your own argument, not answered to single of my arguments and are now moving goal posts, we are done here.
It's basically just "Wah wah, I want what they got".
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brymm wrote: Jim Vessel did go on his tear end of 2018 and start of 2019 using that Khorne prince. Ancient history but was incredible in the knight heavy meta.
I'm pretty sure it got killed by limiting daemon princes to 3 though, I don't think anyone would pick it over a DP of Tzeench or Nurgle.
You are joking right? A 30 person local tournament is what you are going to cite. Jim Vesal won Adepticon with a Khorne Daemon Prince and that is that not enough proof for you? You are obviously just trolling this thread, a space marine player trying to maintain your favorable meta, or don’t actually play 40k. Regardless, I’m done responding to these nonsensical arguments.
broxus wrote: Remember it was just reduced in points unlike the DG daemon prince. You are obviously just trolling this thread, a space marine player trying to maintain your favorable meta, or don’t actually play 40k. Regardless, I’m done responding to these nonsensical arguments.
"I'm out of arguments, so I'm going to attack you instead with insults that are easily verifiable as false, since I never did care about facts in the first place, but only about being right".
Great discussion
Has anyone tried Death Shroud Terminators since the points drop? I have used them in two games so far and they are crushing things for only 126pts. It makes me wonder why anyone would ever take a lord of contagion which is almost the same points, but worse in every way.
I haven't but plan to. I think there's serious mileage in using Mortartion and 2 3 man squads, one on the board for first turn if you don't go first, second in reserve to plop down and keep protecting as you push up field.
To make matters worse, a single Blight Hauler increases the survivability of that squad by 100% (double!) Vs ap1 shooting like Lootas and mass bolter fire. Since the Deathshroud actually take the hits instead of taking mortal wounds or something, they benefit from cover. For those 6 wounds, Morty basically has a 1+/4+/5++, which is just bonkers. It would encourage you to use him a lot less like a guided missile and more like a floating nightmare that lets you control the center of the board. I like it.
Agree. The last book is Space Wolves vs Orks, and I don't think Death Guard have place in that. We should look closely at what TS get in this one though, it's very likely that our update will look very similar, except replace all the nines with sevens
When you think about it, Nurgle's care for is subjects is also some really twisted interpretation of "The Greater Good"
Jidmah wrote: It's very safe to assume that Inexorable Advance will remain unchanged.
Regretfully, you are likely correct. It is easily the worst chapter trait in its current form in the game. It no longer really benefits Blightlords due to the new bolter drill rules which give them full range rapid fire. Plague Marines still benefit from it when they move, but bolter drill is better when they if they stand still. However, no one actually plays with PMs anyways because they are way overcosted Finally, hellbrutes benefit from it, but I have never seen one in a game in 8th edition. You occasionally see some FW variants being used which can make use of it, it not the one in the codex.
Honestly since everyone got bolter drill, it made IA obsolete. There is almost zero reason to even worry about making your army DG battle forged. IA needs a complete rework and needs to work on all units, not just infantry and hellbrutes. In its current form, IA is at least somewhat useful on the other codex units (I.e. PBC and predators)
Right now inexorable advance adds rapid fire range to plasma guns, allows blightlaunchers to advance and shoot without downside, works on our cultists and makes dreads very mobile, including leviathan and deredeo.
The reason why it's perceived as useless is because it doesn't help blightlords or daemon princes, which are pretty much the only competitive units in our codex.
It does have a few instances of being useful, it as I said it is hands down the worst of any codex’s chapter traits atm. It needs updating or to be allowed to impact more than a handful of units in the codex. I wasn’t including FW models since many events don’t allow them.
Are chaos now the only faction which chapter, fleet, army trait only works on infantry and walkers? I can’t think of any others.
Orks exclude gretchin units, Drukhari are split across their three splinters and exclude certain units entirely, Necrons exclude C'Tan and canoptek stuff, Astra Militarum excludes a whole bunch of units and usually splits their traits between infantry and vehicles, sisters have half their codex excluded from acts of faith, Grey Knights only apply to psykers and last, but not least, GSC have their tactics only apply to infantry and bikes.
Not counting cases where the trait implicitly does nothing for vehicles, like morale or close combat buffs.
broxus wrote: It does have a few instances of being useful, it as I said it is hands down the worst of any codex’s chapter traits atm. It needs updating or to be allowed to impact more than a handful of units in the codex. I wasn’t including FW models since many events don’t allow them.
Are chaos now the only faction which chapter, fleet, army trait only works on infantry and walkers? I can’t think of any others.
I disagree. Personally I see it as one of the stronger chapter traits, the bonus for helbrutes, Cultists and Plasmaguns is huge. It also helps blight launchers and meltaguns, though I rarely find myself advancing with Plague Marines. Yes, it can't compete with loyalists, but aside from Alpha legion and maybe the Purge it's the best CSM trait in my eyes.
I wouldn't mind if it worked on all tanks, though. Could make the Land Raider an interesting option.
Ha, never got around to build mine so I haven't used it yet and wasn't aware of that. Well, let's take the Defiler or predator as examples then. Also Drones with heavy Blight launcher and the Plagueburst crawler (though the latter is already pretty good).
Dont mean to speculate or wishlist, but its far more likely they just give us a Stratagem to grant a vehicle DR for a turn. We already have Blasphemous Machines for move and shoot vehicles. Core rules wont change much (unless you're an Imperial), and our non-supplement level support comes from Warlord Traits, Powers, and Stratagems.
It wouldnt surprise me if we got the Heroes series 3 Plague Caster reboxed, since DG really only have Typhus and Felthius as purchasable HQs outside of Dark Imperium, and maybe an updated Psychic Discipline.
Speculation is always a bit hard but I think the upcoming supplement with Thousand Sons in it could give us a glimpse of what´s in store for us. Both of us being standalone traitor legions.
my wish list :
- improve typhus and his poxwalker
- bump plague marine to 2W and maybe change their bolter to plague weapon
- more stratagem, more warlord trait
- tweak legion trait
- add DR to another units
kaiseric wrote: my wish list :
- improve typhus and his poxwalker
It's not unlikely that poxwalkers get another stratagem. Typhus main problem is his speed IMO, as soon as pox walkers start charging, he is left out. I don't see that getting fixed.
- bump plague marine to 2W and maybe change their bolter to plague weapon
There will not be any datasheets in the new codex unless we get a new model - which is unlikely
- more stratagem, more warlord trait
I think we are pretty much sure to receive those.
- tweak legion trait
As above, expect that we don't get any changes here.
- add DR to another units
I really hope that there will be a stratagem for this, similar to the Khorne Terminator stratagem.
It all depends if we get the chaos legions treatment or the blood angels treatment in PA. I am hoping for the latter since good things come to those who wait. Grey Knights and Death Guard now have the oldest codexes in 8th edition.
Anything is possible to include enhanced chapter tactics, data sheet changes, and new units. The update for Thousand Sons will give is a clear indication of what to expect.
kaiseric wrote: my wish list :
- improve typhus and his poxwalker
- bump plague marine to 2W and maybe change their bolter to plague weapon
- more stratagem, more warlord trait
- tweak legion trait
- add DR to another units
- I'd be happy to just remove Typhus' mostly useless MW aura rule and replace it with the standard Chaos Lord reroll 1's aura, everything else can stay as is. Both units already received a points drop
- Doubt 2W cult troops will ever happen and plague bolters will further break Arch Contaminator which is already the best warlord trait. (could make it a 1CP stratagem to load plague shells or something sure)
- This will be the most likely, will probably be a page or two of stratagems most of which will be niche and never used a couple new relics and WL traits (some good, some bad)
- I doubt IE will change at all until next codex, however it is very likely we will get a further layer of either this trait or a super trait like SM. If the reveals around the nine occult traits for Thousand Sons are anything to go by, could we finally get some further layered rules for the 7 Plague Companies?
- DR finally on Chaos Lords is my number one wish list item
So, I want her to compete with her Sister who received the Smurf half of those box sets, what would be a good unit or two to add whenever birthday presents come around?
So, I want her to compete with her Sister who received the Smurf half of those box sets, what would be a good unit or two to add whenever birthday presents come around?
I would get her Plagueburst Crawler, M. Blight Hauler (or 3 they are cheap). Also depending on what she likes more Poxwalkers or Marines. If she likes the Poxwalkers the Typhus is a good add.
So, I want her to compete with her Sister who received the Smurf half of those box sets, what would be a good unit or two to add whenever birthday presents come around?
I would get her Plagueburst Crawler, M. Blight Hauler (or 3 they are cheap). Also depending on what she likes more Poxwalkers or Marines. If she likes the Poxwalkers the Typhus is a good add.
Appreciate it, I think some Blight Haulers are in the future for her. Honest opinion though, Plague Marines suck don't they?
So, I want her to compete with her Sister who received the Smurf half of those box sets, what would be a good unit or two to add whenever birthday presents come around?
Hands down, a daemon prince with wings. Just get the regular one, not the finecast Daemon Prince of Nurgle. With dual talons and drone bodyguards, it should help her a lot crushing those primaris ultrasmurfs. Also get two boxes of ETB plague marines so you have some blight launchers and a plasma champion for those plague marines. With 3x plasma (you should have 2 plasma marines in the starter box) or 2x blight launchers (plasma champion optional), plague marines are decent enough unless we are talking about winning tournaments - at which point you drop most of the codex for chaos soup anyways. Sticking to cover is mandatory for them though. You can also get the missing starter characters (plague caster and noxious blight bringer) of ebay for next to no money. Lastly, just play the Lords of Contagion as Chaos Lords with terminator armor, makes the army much more powerful.
Afterwards, you can go for stuff like Myphitic Blighthaulers, Plagueburst Crawlers and Terminators.
So, I want her to compete with her Sister who received the Smurf half of those box sets, what would be a good unit or two to add whenever birthday presents come around?
I would get her Plagueburst Crawler, M. Blight Hauler (or 3 they are cheap). Also depending on what she likes more Poxwalkers or Marines. If she likes the Poxwalkers the Typhus is a good add.
Appreciate it, I think some Blight Haulers are in the future for her. Honest opinion though, Plague Marines suck don't they?
I think plague marines are not super competitive atm. However, what does she think is cool? I would buy what she likes the most vs what is most competitive.
That’s awesome! I am looking forward to more relics and Stratagems, which I feel is our books only glaring weakness. Keep your fingers crossed everyone!
We are likely going to get a mono faction bonus of some kind. Not sure what the bonus is going to be, but that seems to be a general trend. Looks like Grey Knights are getting some solid updates. I think we will likely have a much better idea later this week after the Thousand Sons previews.
So any speculation as to what new rules DG will get in the next PA?
What I'm expecting/hoping
- IE to remain the same but will likely add an extra layer
- Unlikely, but DR to be their super trait for all units
- Rules to cover the 7 plague companies
- Tallyman to receive litanies of corruption
- A warlord trait other than arch contaminator to be finally usable
- DG daemon weapon relics please!
I wouldn’t expect a mono faction bonus. That would be inconsistent with the other Legions, and contradict Nurgle Daemonkin. It seems Tsons are getting detachment-level subfactions along with the same Strats ect expansion of the Legions, which seems ideal - it gives extra perks without the inflexibility of, say, my Novamarines losing the Ultramarines mono-mono bonus for being accompanied by Guilliman.
Yeah since the the TS got 9 different cults that give a detachment access to a specific WL trait, psychic power and relic, I guess DG will get something similar in the form of 7 different hosts + some additional strategems.
Maybe instead of the psychic power we'll get another small buff.
Probably no host buff for named characters and cultists like TS.
My guess for the Strategems if they go for something similar would be:
Strategem for an additional WL trait
Strategem for better plague weapons for 1 unit for shooting and / or fighting
Some kind of Strategem to do extra mortal wounds
Strategem to improve DR / toughness for a unit if chosen for an attack
Something to regenerate wounds / get back models
Another kind of hit modifier
Some kind of debuff strategem
Maybe something to let you shoot with heavy weapons after advancing
Some strategem for plague marines, blightlords or pox walkers, TS got 3 specific ones for Rubrics / Scarabs
My guess for possible hosts would be a damage improving one, one that works with hit modifier / cover, one that adds speed, one for pox walkers and one that has access to debuffs.
All guessing of course but that would go in line with the TS stuff and would be fitting for DG.
To bad I must choose to paint more TS or DG now.
Probably no Primaris-tier buffs, but that way we get chaos soup like TS.
Might compensate a little.
I really hope for the tallyman getting litanies. It would turn him from nice to awesome and I really love the idea and the design of the model.
I'd also not be too surprise if they didn't follow the template for TS at all, since their entire PA entry seems to be dancing around making the supreme command detachment too powerful for soup.
Things that really could use new stratagems would be Death Shrouds, Plague Marines and maybe something that helps daemon engines hit stuff - so the already decent plague spitter load-outs get some competition. A second psychic discipline could also help us a lot, as we have no trouble putting a bunch of psykers on the table, especially with the plaguecaster dropping to 95.
