I'm considering getting the DG digital book, as a companion/alternative detachment to the CSM book.
In the new book, is a Palanquin of Nurgle [or something like it] a relic or standard equipment option for Chaos Lords? I have a Lord on Palanquin left over from 7th, and I'm reluctant to get a new Lord just for the Death Guard.
Total= 1836 pts. Not sure what else to add. It seems so small!
two rhinos and the dude that buffs your grenades. If I understand him correctly, if you use him in conjunction with the grenade strategem, all your DG in a unit get to throw 2d6 str4 ap-1 plague nades.
Saw a battle report yesterday of DG vs Salamanders. The guy used a very similar army except he had two bloat drones, more characters and none of the plague hauler and crawlers. The thing is, Mortarion died by turn 4 I think. He went and charged in Mortarion unsupported into like one third to half of the Salamander's army. His two bloat drones were on his two flanks.
Mortarion is good, but he does go down to shooting if you fire enough shots his way. You can't rely on him to solo the whole opponent's army. That Salamanders army wasn't even the shootiest SM army I have seen. So I feel that a DG list needs to be able to take out heavy support, plus it needs to have other targets of priority that the opponent will have to take into account other than just Mortarion. Especially for the heavy support guns. BTW, the DG army was very resilient. The bloat drones were so hard to kill. The problem was his biggest damage output was Mortarion, who could delete at least one unit a turn, so naturally the opponent started to focus on him after a while. Mortarion was quite obviously the biggest threat.
If you want to prove I'm wrong - then do so. Don't use demagogy and other tricks. They don't work on me. Only facts and pure calculations. As it happens i have math degree.
I gave the shorthand version of the calculations I did because people find them boring and usually want to get to the TLDR version, so I just recap the results. If you'd like to see the actual math, I'd be more than happy to PM it to you so as not to clutter up the thread. My apologies if the math I did was unclear.
In short, I have no issue with you saying that such an output is theoretically possible. But this is a tactics thread. Is it theoretically possible to roll nothing but sixes for an entire game of 40k? Sure is. But saying "guys Mortarion has the capability to roll all 6's for his armor saves and DR rolls and never die" is not very tactically useful. Your proposed potential turn of even 100 wounds dealt by Mortarion would happen about as often as winning the lottery 3 times in one day. Interesting from a theoretical standpoint perhaps, but has no place in a tactics thread. So yes. Please. Let's get back to actual tactics.
Morty - bloatdrone - daemon prince and plague drones rumble as a squad.
daemons advance!
You can't fiel army like that sorry. Battalion of daemons is okay, 2nd detachment is super heavy aka morty - that is also fine.
But then I don't get how you want to field 3x cultists without HQ. Morty cannot be HQ he is lord of war.
To make it valid you need HQ for cultists.
Ive only got what ive read here, and the MWG vids to go off, and im still kinda new to DG in general so bare that in mind.
I guess we all agree that Morty is a god in CC but is vulnerable making his way up the field to shooting attacks, which lets face it is likely how people will set up against him. How about this an alternative tactic, it is a "left field" but hey ho this is a tactics discussion
Hold Morty back in deployment zone for a few rounds, behind cover so he cant be nuked from range. Have a couple of the mortar tanks back there with him, also behind terrain as they don't need LoS. Use whatever other units you build your army around to advance up the board providing distraction. If Morty isn't doing anything your opponent will be forced to focus on the other stuff nuking him/her from range or advancing up the board (PMs, Poxwalkers, Typhus, Bloat drones etc). If possible even get units like poxwalkers or PMs, or deepstriking termies to tie up heavy support/shooty units. combination of that, the mortars, smite etc should either thin out the enemy a little or at the very least distract and tie them up, leaving morty by turn 2/3 to come and move/advance up the board ready to join in the action without as much attention. Marching him up the board turn 1 you may as well just paint a big crosshair on his chest, and being 18 wounds you cant really protect him from it, the darkshrouds are an option but its a hell of an expensive extra 6 wounds for Morty.
Other option would be the reverse, and actually use Morty as the distraction by marching him up the board first, they focus everything on him to kill him, meanwhile your other units move into range to deliver damage. Again though, an expensive distraction and possibly giving up Slay the Warlord a little easy.
garetheves wrote: Ive only got what ive read here, and the MWG vids to go off, and im still kinda new to DG in general so bare that in mind.
I guess we all agree that Morty is a god in CC but is vulnerable making his way up the field to shooting attacks, which lets face it is likely how people will set up against him. How about this an alternative tactic, it is a "left field" but hey ho this is a tactics discussion
Hold Morty back in deployment zone for a few rounds, behind cover so he cant be nuked from range. Have a couple of the mortar tanks back there with him, also behind terrain as they don't need LoS. Use whatever other units you build your army around to advance up the board providing distraction. If Morty isn't doing anything your opponent will be forced to focus on the other stuff nuking him/her from range or advancing up the board (PMs, Poxwalkers, Typhus, Bloat drones etc). If possible even get units like poxwalkers or PMs, or deepstriking termies to tie up heavy support/shooty units. combination of that, the mortars, smite etc should either thin out the enemy a little or at the very least distract and tie them up, leaving morty by turn 2/3 to come and move/advance up the board ready to join in the action without as much attention. Marching him up the board turn 1 you may as well just paint a big crosshair on his chest, and being 18 wounds you cant really protect him from it, the darkshrouds are an option but its a hell of an expensive extra 6 wounds for Morty.
Other option would be the reverse, and actually use Morty as the distraction by marching him up the board first, they focus everything on him to kill him, meanwhile your other units move into range to deliver damage. Again though, an expensive distraction and possibly giving up Slay the Warlord a little easy.
Its not gonna be easy to hide Mortarion behind cover. Have you seen how big his model is? Its huge. People face the same issues with Magnus, who has a similarly huge model.
garetheves wrote: Ive only got what ive read here, and the MWG vids to go off, and im still kinda new to DG in general so bare that in mind.
I guess we all agree that Morty is a god in CC but is vulnerable making his way up the field to shooting attacks, which lets face it is likely how people will set up against him. How about this an alternative tactic, it is a "left field" but hey ho this is a tactics discussion
Hold Morty back in deployment zone for a few rounds, behind cover so he cant be nuked from range. Have a couple of the mortar tanks back there with him, also behind terrain as they don't need LoS. Use whatever other units you build your army around to advance up the board providing distraction. If Morty isn't doing anything your opponent will be forced to focus on the other stuff nuking him/her from range or advancing up the board (PMs, Poxwalkers, Typhus, Bloat drones etc). If possible even get units like poxwalkers or PMs, or deepstriking termies to tie up heavy support/shooty units. combination of that, the mortars, smite etc should either thin out the enemy a little or at the very least distract and tie them up, leaving morty by turn 2/3 to come and move/advance up the board ready to join in the action without as much attention. Marching him up the board turn 1 you may as well just paint a big crosshair on his chest, and being 18 wounds you cant really protect him from it, the darkshrouds are an option but its a hell of an expensive extra 6 wounds for Morty.
Other option would be the reverse, and actually use Morty as the distraction by marching him up the board first, they focus everything on him to kill him, meanwhile your other units move into range to deliver damage. Again though, an expensive distraction and possibly giving up Slay the Warlord a little easy.
Its not gonna be easy to hide Mortarion behind cover. Have you seen how big his model is? Its huge. People face the same issues with Magnus, who has a similarly huge model.
True but most table setups have decent sized terrain middle of the table and a few tall LoS objects, might not be able to give him 100% cover but maybe enough to avoid a number of shots. And if the opponent is faced with multiple units running up the board they aren't gonna waste shots on Morty that far away, they will want to thin the poxwalkers before they get swarmed, or the 3 plasma guns per PM squad nuking them, not to mention a surprise strike on terminators behind them. Then out pops morty just before the poxwalkers and blight drones charge and they have a decision to make; try and take out mortys 18wounds and risk being swamped by pox walkers, typhus etc, or concentrate on the close stuff, leaving Morty to prace up the board, skipping and whistling
Depends on the terrain you play with. At the store me and my friend play at, its mostly ruins (which have windows and holes in them). So, it is almost impossible to have such a big model be completed out of sight. And all he needs to see is a small portion of the model, and he can shoot at it. Given the size of the model, its unlikely you can be in cover either. So, as long as he sees even a piece of your wing, or shoulder, then he can shoot you and you don't count as being in cover (because it is unlikely your entire model base is in cover).
Mortarion is no doubt powerful. But that 470 points cost. Gottay say this is even quiet major increase over Magnus for whopping 55 points - which is well equipped blightlord terminator for example.
Of course Morty is valid pick, but with all new units and stuff I would say it's more than possible to make strong army where he is not present.
Given that if I want to play game at 1000 points or less - I won't field him as it would be pretty damn boring if he eats half of points. Even if can pay for himself.
Especially that he got great synergy with fast attack units that follow him and deep striking termies - but not as much with more shooty DG armies - that as of now are not horrible idea.
I can see potent army based around PBC's , Haulers and shooty blight launcher/plasma Plague Marines.
In fact I think they are pretty damn capable at shooting.
Fun fact is that they can rapid fire before intercessors and hellblasters respectively - worse weapons but that is something.
PBC even if at BS4 is a great deal.
I can see them overpowering in shooting ASS-cannons/lascannon razorbacks even with Guilliman.
At same time your front line is held by plague marines covered by Haulers sitting at Armor of 2+ against shooting.
Make wrap with anything be it cultists / poxwalkers.
Morty - bloatdrone - daemon prince and plague drones rumble as a squad.
daemons advance!
You can't fiel army like that sorry. Battalion of daemons is okay, 2nd detachment is super heavy aka morty - that is also fine.
But then I don't get how you want to field 3x cultists without HQ. Morty cannot be HQ he is lord of war.
To make it valid you need HQ for cultists.
oops keep forgetting lord of war is not a hq!!(back from 20 years out) hmmm ill have to rejiggle, but plenty of time for that since it'll take a week at least after release for my morty to arrive.
Combo idea.
Infiltrate alpha legion cultists forward, such that the read rank is within 7" of your poxwalkers.
Trigger the cloud of flies and dead walk stratagems on your poxwalkers . Every dead cultists triggers a new poxwalkers which can be placed at the front of the unit, allowing for a speedy advance.
They have close to no synergy with DG compared to Plague Marines.
No benefit from Legion Trait, no plague weapons - and so no benefit from archcontaminator and putrescent blades.
They don't really benefit from new Haulers cover save as 6+ most of the time there will be at least AP-1. When Plague Marines do love it.
No synergy with Grenade elite guys.
I dare to even say they lack synergy with Typhus himself.
They force this Movement 4 guy with advancement halved to give up his teleport strike that would let him pull off charge turn 1 and use his powerful manreaper/auras/warlord trait and destroyer hive.
Not only that but even with noxious dude - won't make to combat before Turn 3 or later for sure ...
He will be also very exposed to all kind of assassins.
And once he is dead. Well you can take poxwalkers off table aswell, won't make such difference.
And above everything they won't catch up with centerpice of our army - Mortarion.
I may take 10 to hold objective and thats it.
And even if I will have them for above reason and Typhus - he will ignore them completely and act on his own - aka travel with Deathshroud in LR or deepstrike with other termies.
Guys; what do you think of this strategy with 3 Blight Haulers.
Take a Heretic Astartes Patrol Detachment with a Cheap Chaos sorcerer marked nurgle , and one cheap unit of alpha legion cultists.
Take Prescience and warptime. First turn cast Prescience and Warptime to Haulers and warptime them.
The haulers will go forward 19" and fire their weapon on 2+, Thats 3 shot of multi melta on 2 and 3 shots of Missile Launcher on 2+. ( you have even the bile spust thing)
THen your chaos sorcerer is not wasted because he can warp time poxwalkers, prescience artillery etc..
Is this good ?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DarklyDreaming wrote: How would you equip the BlightLord Terminators (in order to kill some MEQ and TEQ)? I would go with axes and blight launchers (better than plasma? I can't risk to lose a 57 pts model...) except for the sergent with the flail... 3d3 attacks my god.
You cant take more than one blight launcher per squad
Kangaxx wrote: Guys; what do you think of this strategy with 3 Blight Haulers.
Take a Heretic Astartes Patrol Detachment with a Cheap Chaos sorcerer marked nurgle , and one cheap unit of alpha legion cultists.
Take Prescience and warptime. First turn cast Prescience and Warptime to Haulers and warptime them.
The haulers will go forward 19" and fire their weapon on 2+, Thats 3 shot of multi melta on 2 and 3 shots of Missile Launcher on 2+. ( you have even the bile spust thing)
THen your chaos sorcerer is not wasted because he can warp time poxwalkers, prescience artillery etc..
Is this good ?
It's fine. Make the Cultists 40 men strong, and make the Sorcerer and Cultists Slaanesh. That way after you've boosted the Haulers they can give the cultists a 5+ FNP and regrow them with the Stratagem.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Combo idea.
Infiltrate alpha legion cultists forward, such that the read rank is within 7" of your poxwalkers.
Trigger the cloud of flies and dead walk stratagems on your poxwalkers . Every dead cultists triggers a new poxwalkers which can be placed at the front of the unit, allowing for a speedy advance.
I believe that stratagem only applies to infantry models within 7 inches, not the entire unit.
Captyn_Bob wrote: Combo idea.
Infiltrate alpha legion cultists forward, such that the read rank is within 7" of your poxwalkers.
Trigger the cloud of flies and dead walk stratagems on your poxwalkers . Every dead cultists triggers a new poxwalkers which can be placed at the front of the unit, allowing for a speedy advance.
^^This! Combining cultist with poxwalkers saves points and makes it so your opponent doesnt want to shoot the cultist, but cant shoot the poxwalkers. Combined with typhus and Necrosius for a mean little horde.
Do this with an allied unit of 40 cultists and then in your turn use tide of traitors of any are left. That gets you a nicely boosted unit of poxwalkers and a massive unit of cultists in the opponents rear field
Automatically Appended Next Post: Even better take alpha legion cultists and put them 9"s away from the enemy front line and stretch them out so they are almost back to your lines. If you go second the cultists will bite the majority of your opponents first turn of shooting. If you go first run your poxwalkers forward as fast as you can then spring the dead walk again trick and charge every cultist that gets killed by overwatch is a free poxwalker. As long as 1 cultist survives the turn you can just use tide of traitors and pop them all back somewhere else then charge woth the now massive mob of walkers
All Bloat Drones are super good. Though Fleshmover still MVP i suppose.
Finally data for last weapon :
Heavy Blight Launcher :
Assault 6 S6 AP -2 D3 damage , Plague Weapon,
And insane 36" Range
Sadly BS 4+ on Demonic Engine , but we are talking about 3 blight launchers with 50% more range . This can stand near arch contaminator to reroll all wound rolls and reroll 1's to hit when moving along Morty for example - so not necessarily inaccurate.
Imo can hit elite infantry like terminators in 36" radius and got solid dakka.
This solidfy my oppinion that you can get really powerful shooting on this army.
This bloat drone can move 10" or even advance (but then -1 to hit) and still shoot 36" - potentially some crazy range.
Honestly with this blight launcher and fact its assault and because bloat drone can disengage and shoot lol - it's better than hauler.
But then again hauler got buffs for numbers and aura for infantry.
PBC extra weapons stat :
You can have either heavy slugger or Rothail volley gun.
Both decent.
Heavy Slugger : 36" Heavy 4 S5 AP-1 D1 - not a Plague weapon
Rothail Volley Gun : 24" Heavy 3 S6 AP-2 D1 - also not plague.
Heavy Slugger looks like winner, not because of extra shoot but 36"
And I now think PBC isn't op because : BS4+ and IT IS DEGRADING.
On top of that no rule to move and shoot heavy weapon without penalty.
So PBC kinda would welcome lord/prince babysitting it for at least rerolling 1's.
Kinda sucks that we lost access to Daemon Forged stratagem .
Still this is great tank with resillience of damn Land Raider for low cost. Just stand still and own within 36".
Edit : Sadly I think any opponent who has any deep strike will aim for those as they are vulnerable in CC and can't even overwatch with mortar. Now this normally wouldn't sound like a problem in first place, but rest of your dudes probably will advance leaving it/them alone.
Plague Spitters sound like horrible idea for 2 reasons - you can't overwatch on deep strike charge - they are 9" not 10". And if you want to use them for advancing and shooting - you lose ability to shoot your heavy weapons. If you just move they hit at 5's. so it's like 90% of time entropy cannon.
But that being said - S7 flamers AP -1 D1 Rerolling 1's to wound and 9" range beats bloat drone with strenght.
I think my tactic for this army starts to flesh out slowly with all this info.
The 4+ to hit for the daemon engines may be an issue for deathguard gunline. It becomes a 5+ if facing Alpha legion, Ravenguard or Storm Ravens. Anyway, let's say we have 10 of those mortar tanks with two characters and a bubblewrap. Is that a deadly enough gunline?
Anyone spotted any good anti horde and light infantry so far? It seems we have anti tank in abundance, plus lots of 2 damage good AP weapons for teq, but the only dedicated anti horde I see is melee or the various flamer weapons, most of which aren't super practical given low range and lack of mobility.
SilverAlien wrote: Anyone spotted any good anti horde and light infantry so far? It seems we have anti tank in abundance, plus lots of 2 damage good AP weapons for teq, but the only dedicated anti horde I see is melee or the various flamer weapons, most of which aren't super practical given low range and lack of mobility.
You are joking right ?
First of all bs - our flamers are one of most mobile ones and have best range hands down. 9" instead of 8" and most of them you will have on platform that can move 10" +d6 from advance and still shoot since it's Assault weapon.
Ok let's start :
1. Best anti horde unit to ever see table : Mortarion
2. Plague Marines with Flails of corruption (each flail for 1 attack can kill up to 6 dudes) and blight grenade stratagem.
3. All 3 types of Bloat drones
4. Blightlord terminators also can use flails even better, same story with blight grenades and stratagem.
5. Deathshroud - may sound like only 10 attacks but 3 dudes also have 3d6 auto hits both at 6" and in CC as it's pistol.
6. Plague wind spell - they bigger the blob - the better 7. Poxwalkers - well same story as above. They love other hordes.
8. New Relic - as even GW mentioned it's easy to kill yourself when striking such Demon Prince equipped with one. Pretty easy if there is tons of hits coming.
If you get luck with advance rolls on poxwalkers and hit into such blob of conscripts oh dear God - it may be the only case when IG player regrets taking tons conscripts.
All this happens when poor IG artillery struggles to put even scratch on crazy tanky stuff like Drones/Burst Crawlers/Myphitics/Terminators.
In fact I don't like poxwalkers but with meta being so horde heavy - they may have place after all ...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lord Commissar wrote: As cool as the lawn mower is, I am not sure it is worth taking over plaguespitters.
Unless like the model infers it replaces the plague spitters and the death probe AND is only like 30-35 points.
Because then it would be a solid way to get a bloat drone on the cheap
Sadly we got some stupid gak there, i saw on review of codex entry, where it's noted that Drone is equipped with 2 spitters and probe.
You can replace 2 spitters for either fleshmover or heavy blight launcher. Indicating that even though it's stupid - we gotta pay for probe in any configuration.
And probe may aswell win contest for most cost ineffective weapon per point invested weapon in Entire 40K universe.
But then again we don't know if they didn't adjust cost of probe - I never saw point cost table in DG codex.
Same goes for Plaguereaper - if it stays at 45pts - then we all know that everyone take Manreaper for 17points - especially that it even has better strenght aswell.
Btw as we speak I bought 2 more DI Drones for 9€ each hehehehe. Now I sit on 3 but i don't assembly them.
I hope I will be able to actually costumize them using boxed drone bits - to actually remake one as fleshmover and one as heavy blight launcher. Still will be stuck with 2 plaguespitter - but they are great aswell - so nothing to complain about.
Seems like Bloat drone is excellent answer to anything.
Honestly thanks to it's speed, weapon choices it can do anything.
From CC specialist to close range flamer specialists ending as long range mobile artillery. And thanks to type of all those weapons - we can easily say that they can wound anything from simple infantry to land raiders - especially with archcontaminator around.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Saw a battle report yesterday of DG vs Salamanders. The guy used a very similar army except he had two bloat drones, more characters and none of the plague hauler and crawlers. The thing is, Mortarion died by turn 4 I think. He went and charged in Mortarion unsupported into like one third to half of the Salamander's army. His two bloat drones were on his two flanks.
Mortarion is good, but he does go down to shooting if you fire enough shots his way. You can't rely on him to solo the whole opponent's army. That Salamanders army wasn't even the shootiest SM army I have seen. So I feel that a DG list needs to be able to take out heavy support, plus it needs to have other targets of priority that the opponent will have to take into account other than just Mortarion. Especially for the heavy support guns. BTW, the DG army was very resilient. The bloat drones were so hard to kill. The problem was his biggest damage output was Mortarion, who could delete at least one unit a turn, so naturally the opponent started to focus on him after a while. Mortarion was quite obviously the biggest threat.
Couldn't agree more with this. I watched the same thing happen with players using Magnus in 1k sons armies. They would shoot him forward, he would annihilate a unit, then fall due to the whole opponents entire army shooting him down lol. Definitely support him. Bring a unit or two that can atleast keep up and bring those death shroud guys. Anything. He needs to survive to not be a giant waste of points. Maybe find a way to include a helldrake in a detachment. Those are very good at getting where they need to be and then distract those things.
Eldenfirefly wrote: Saw a battle report yesterday of DG vs Salamanders. The guy used a very similar army except he had two bloat drones, more characters and none of the plague hauler and crawlers. The thing is, Mortarion died by turn 4 I think. He went and charged in Mortarion unsupported into like one third to half of the Salamander's army. His two bloat drones were on his two flanks.
Mortarion is good, but he does go down to shooting if you fire enough shots his way. You can't rely on him to solo the whole opponent's army. That Salamanders army wasn't even the shootiest SM army I have seen. So I feel that a DG list needs to be able to take out heavy support, plus it needs to have other targets of priority that the opponent will have to take into account other than just Mortarion. Especially for the heavy support guns. BTW, the DG army was very resilient. The bloat drones were so hard to kill. The problem was his biggest damage output was Mortarion, who could delete at least one unit a turn, so naturally the opponent started to focus on him after a while. Mortarion was quite obviously the biggest threat.
Couldn't agree more with this. I watched the same thing happen with players using Magnus in 1k sons armies. They would shoot him forward, he would annihilate a unit, then fall due to the whole opponents entire army shooting him down lol. Definitely support him. Bring a unit or two that can atleast keep up and bring those death shroud guys. Anything. He needs to survive to not be a giant waste of points. Maybe find a way to include a helldrake in a detachment. Those are very good at getting where they need to be and then distract those things.
I wouldn't take this battlerep too seriously. I saw it myself - and amount of mistakes DG player made was mindblowing. Let's start :
1. Except for turn 1 he forgot to cast miasma on Morty - honestly that already is CRITICAL mistake.
2. He forgot many times both Morty Auras. Like those dudes have printed version of DG codex there and they can't use centerpice of thier army.
3. Bloat Drones should accompany morty for his archcontaminator aura - rerolling all wound rolls not just 1's . On top of that Morty wouldn't be alone there + drones shooting targets that are -1T along with archcontaminator can easily melt even vehicles.
4. He also got some other rules wrong like Plague Probe being at AP-1 when it's in fact at AP-2 - actually it would had impact on said game.
5. He used 2 CP's to bring back one Blightlord termie with 1 wound , but he couldn't spend 1 CP to veterans of long war in either shooting phase or CC phase to blow up Razorback .... OKAY
6. He did admit it himself, but still - ohing plasma on lord before you oh plasma on nearby squad ... Really wow.
Generally he made Morty/Blightlords/Drones look much worse than they are. Poor display by this dude there.
So I wouldn't draw conclusion based on this single game. In fact bad player can lose with any army - nothing new.
This bloat drone can move 10" or even advance (but then -1 to hit) and still shoot 36" - potentially some crazy range.
not got the info in front of me but doesn't our "chapter tactic" let us advance and fire Assault weapons with no penalty, same with heavies and movement?
So you wouldn't suffer the penalty, and although 4+ isn't great its still 50% chance
This bloat drone can move 10" or even advance (but then -1 to hit) and still shoot 36" - potentially some crazy range.
not got the info in front of me but doesn't our "chapter tactic" let us advance and fire Assault weapons with no penalty, same with heavies and movement?
So you wouldn't suffer the penalty, and although 4+ isn't great its still 50% chance
No it doesn't ... don't even ask me why. Because of GW logic.
They stated all infantry and Helbrutes in our army are affected by Legion trait. It's not like our Legion most notorious "dread" is Bloat drone - but it's not Helbrute . And fact alone that you won't probably field helbrute with our new toys anyway .
Yeah but if you after moving 10" still cant the target you want with 36" range - then okay ..
But it produces a bit different problem. 2 of 3 type of drones can keep up with advancing Mortarion, Heavy blight launcher can unfortunatelly slip outside of his archcontaminator aura it loves - if you don't advance.
Still not big issue.
But then again - you suffer -1 to hit if you advance with heavy blight launcher. You don't suffer with plaguespitters as they Autohit anyway.
This bloat drone can move 10" or even advance (but then -1 to hit) and still shoot 36" - potentially some crazy range.
not got the info in front of me but doesn't our "chapter tactic" let us advance and fire Assault weapons with no penalty, same with heavies and movement?
So you wouldn't suffer the penalty, and although 4+ isn't great its still 50% chance
No it doesn't ... don't even ask me why. Because of GW logic.
They stated all infantry and Helbrutes in our army are affected by Legion trait. It's not like our Legion most notorious "dread" is Bloat drone - but it's not Helbrute . And fact alone that you won't probably field helbrute with our new toys anyway .
Yeah but if you after moving 10" still cant the target you want with 36" range - then okay ..
But it produces a bit different problem. 2 of 3 type of drones can keep up with advancing Mortarion, Heavy blight launcher can unfortunatelly slip outside of his archcontaminator aura it loves - if you don't advance.
Still not big issue.
But then again - you suffer -1 to hit if you advance with heavy blight launcher. You don't suffer with plaguespitters as they Autohit anyway.
Ahh ok, forgot about the infantry/hellbrute bit, thought it was everything
So since I know most of info from Codex already I can share my initial impression on units we have access to:
Wall of text incoming.
Troops :
Cultists - well what is 4 point ppm and is troop choice - can never be bad in first place. Nothing much to add there. If you want Battalion CPs bonus , but don't want to invest much into Troops but some other stuff - this is hands down best choice.
Plaguebearers - marvelous statline, probably best tarpit around per point invested. But there are few problems. No DG keyword alone is solid issue and fact that you can't field them right of the bat , but only summon them unless you want to lose legion trait (if understand correctly). If they had DG keyword - hands down best.
Poxwalkers - Some people love them, some hate them(me) - nowhere as cheap as cultists/conscripts and at same time nowhere near as resilient as similar value models (plaguebearers). On top of that very unimpressive statline especially offensive part - makes them also inferior in terms of damage output to stuff like Ork Boys.
On top of that they are notoriously slow unit that in order to be of any use other than holding objective they need VERY EXPENSIVE support characters - Typhus/Noxious blightbringer and possibly other new elite units.
Still valuable as 10 man tax that can hold objective without running way through morale.
Nurglings - nothing new about those buggers - they share similiar issue with plaguebearers. If want them better take another daemon detachment.
Plague Marines - I used to think they are very overpriced. Now I still think they are. But there are ways to make them work and get your points invested back. As long range support they are surprisingly deadly if you invest into special weapons and resilient at same time.
As CC they can still dish as yet another surprise staggering amount of shooting damage via grenade stratagem and some other support.
Still more reliable as shooting. Wouldn't really take CC option as we have better CC stuff to get the job done.
Final verdict - Average choice. Not as bad as I used to think.
Affected by crapton of various buffs, and they benefit from them all.
Elite :
Possessed - no thanks. I mean they are not horrible, but they don't really get anything from DG tactics except for some cloud of flies stratagem. Average at best. And we got tons of Elite picks and some are very strong.
Helbrute - well not that bad and it actually benefits big time from Legion trait - it can move and shoot twin lascannon and still close in to CC with scourge/fist.
Not bad, but got too strong competition out there. Competition that may not hit as hard , but is much more durable/flexible.
Blightlords - everything is good about them. They may be what other terminators wish to be. Actually tanky and they don't like flies to very popular plasma or smite mortal wounds.
Powerhouse in both CC and very solid as shooting support - can rapid fire plasma / combi bolters up to 18" after deep strike. No weak spots, not overpriced at all. Actually steal.
Slow , but 4+ invu is worth it. Top pick.
Deathshroud - I love those guys by default. But seems they are not as good as I wish them to be. 75 points per model - you can get foul blightspawn/other elite dudes for this point value of single model. Very deadly once they get into CC range. But if they don't ... they act as very expensive meatshield for characters - that is if there are any around and they can keep up (probably not).
And chances they won't make into CC are sadly very high.
If you take Land Raider - they are excellent. If you don't - average if not worse. Land Raider can help them get guaranteed charge - and they can really hurt a lot. Thier value as meatshield is also questionable at best ... they are 75 points each - do you want to save your tallyman there. Or actually save deathshroud more ... Not easy choice considering point value.
Foul Blightspawn - That dude is GOD, his flamer alone is worth it. This thing can wipe out entire custodes units with some good rolls. Other skills make me want to take 2 of them. Top pick.
Biologus Putrifier - Not as good as guy above, actually much worse. But not entirely worthless either - can achieve spectacular effects if he accompany CC plague marines in Rhino. Grenade stratagem and his ability can dish insane damage with plague marines jumping out of Rhino to throw some sweets. More of cheesy situational guy, not bad though - average.
Noxious Blightbringer - we know this guy.Vary from autopick to not welcome. Autopick for armies who need to advance fast to CC/flamer range. Not welcome to armies more oriented around slow advance and shooting/ stationary gunline. But very useful for infantry based army. Good choice most of the time.
Tallyman - Hmmmmmmmmmmm ... not sure about him. His CP cheese is not actually bad and basically 6 CPs are worth on average 7 with him. So that alone ain't half bad. His other ability is very potent in CC. He is okay, depending if he can keep up with said CC units.
Why I don't value him higher ? You probably have Daemon Prince rerolling 1's around in both shooting / CC - and Prince is doing tons of other stuff aswell. Mortarion himself also gives such aura. And Morty will be in front of your lines in same area where you want your tallyman.
That being said - if you don't take Morty - then yeah he is good and only 60 points + 7 for pistol. So quiet cheap.
Surgeon - Sadly very unimpressive dude. Eats on VERY CROWDED Elite choice. His only notable skill is rerolling 1's on FNP - that is garbage. So extra 5,5% to pass FNP test. Sorry not enough to justify taking elite slot and his points. Although he jumps to Average choice against Space Marines thanks to his other ability.
Fast attack :
Foetid Bloat Drone - Unquestionable MVP - when everything with few exceptions is slow in our army - they are daemons of speed. Able to move up to 16" and still shoot . Resilience wise they are fantastic. Flexible with weapons - can perform various roles and in fact perform all of them pretty damn well. And that is still not all they have - they benefit heavily from Mortarion auras and are his true companions - not slowass deathshroud. They love all buffs he provides , they can advance with him and provide support he needs so badly. Last but not least it's impossible to render them useless via CC. Fly rule gives them possibility to disengage and shoot more. CC variant want to be stuck in CC anyway. Easily must have in great numbers.
Myphitic Blight Hauler - not as good as glorious Bloat drone - but still good. Except for Bloat drones - not much competition in Fast attack slot , so they probably gonna see table a lot. Especially that you can take them in units of 1-3. So All they need is just 1 fast attack slot - and they deserve it.
Fast anti tank support for our army that benefits a lot from getting 3 of them. Demon Engine that after moving 10" can shoot and hit at 3+ , with morty around at 3+ rerolling 1's ? Pretty neat and deadly. They also provide very powerful buff to your Plague Marines, may be in fact one of best buffs for our Marine squads. 2+ terminator armor , damn. Useless for poxwalkers etc 6+ won't last long against any AP and even without won't save many.
Now to the weak spots : if you don't take 3 - it hits with 2 weapons at 4+ and costs around 137 points. Average in CC and additional assault weapon while nice - unreliable and low range. But weakest spot is lack of weapon costumization for this unit. Only Melta + Missile Launcher - 2 weapons I would not rather have in fact I wish i could take Entrophy cannon/plague spitters/heavy blight launchers there. Not saying it's weapons are useless, but there are better ones that we cannot take. And unit of 3 costs more than 400 points ...
Plague Drones - no DG keyword but good as summoning unit. Cheap for what they do, 102 points for 3 very tough and fast tarpit units - seems like deal I like. They can also do some damage rerolling all wounds despite no AP.
Chaos spawn - actually very strong choice despite serious competition from drones - since you also can take those in units of more than 1. So not taking too many slots. And damn those things can be deadly once they get into CC. Per points invested - i dare to say they are also durable. Yet very vulnerable to multi damage weapons.
HQ :
Lord of Contagion - now we can talk. Idk how much Plaguereaper costs, but since we can use Manreaper - it's irrelevant. He costs as of now 120 points + 17 for manrepaer - 137 is not 184 he used to be. As I expected we got him for ~~50 points less.
Sadly his movement is pathethic and he relies on either Land Raider or lucky charge from teleport strike. He can't cast any powers, his aura is garbage and he doesn't shoot anything , not even grenades lol.
But now with reduced cost seems like he can at least justify his place on board as anti-elite infantry , character stuff. He is also pretty durable and with archcontaminator - if you don't have morty on field - can actually be of any use to others. In that case take relic for extra 3" range.
And suddenly he is better archcontaminator than Mortarion himself !! With 10" bubble for wound rerolls on plague weapons and 10" aura for his less useful chance for mortal wounds.
Still kinda meh, but again if you don't have Morty - and typhus can't take Archcontaminator ! Daemon Prince don't like archcontaminator either as he don't swing plague weapons himself.
Typhus - very good pick, but just don't make him warlord - sadly he ends up with pretty unimpressive if not straight worst warlord trait. But still excellent choice as HQ - combines psyker and lord contagion in one. Also buffs Pox and got GOD tier CC weapon on top of cool pistol.
Autopick.
Malignant Plaguecaster - solid psyker , very impressive if you can get him close to opponents. Sadly his job can be done by typhus/mortarion and even Daemon Prince to some extent. Thus he may not see field too much. But that is just strong competition - he is still solid.
Daemon Prince - with wings or not - still insanely fast for Nurgle Standards. Insanely resilient , very potent in CC, psyker, powerful reroll aura. Access to awesome relics he likes. Along with Typhus your HQ beast.
Lord/Terminator Lord - useless except for budget 1's reroll. Thus may see some use if you drop him with Blightlords. Except for that - hard to justify him.
Sorcerer/ terminator Sorcerer - pointless - if you take Sorcerer - you are better off with Malignant dude thanks to his 7" deadzone. Terminator option pointless thanks to Typhus. No warptime ... so yeah.
Lord of War : Morty - worth his points ... but not mandatory. 470 is a lot - you can get crapton of stuff for it. Worth it if you can build army that can support him / advance with him. In any other case - not so much actually.
Heavy support :
Plagueburst crawler - who said we need to advance because we can't shoot - Now this thing is cheap, deadly and looks good on top of that. Heavy firepower support , no longer we miss Forgefiend or Havocs - though obliterators yes . Very good pick in fact best in Heavy slot.
Insanely tanky rivals Land Raider in this aspect and costs less than half !
Land Raider - same old Land Raider everyone has. I wouldn't take it - unless I will run Deathshroud/Lord of Contagion - those guys need reliable ride to do thier job. Situational.
Predator - if not Plagueburst Crawler ... Well here is alternative take - if you have Morty - then this Predator probably won't get nuked , so in fact it may live to shoot itself. And with BS3+ and 4 lascannons - at 48" it's our best AT choice actually. But then again once they start shooting it - won't survive too long. PBC beats it.
Defiler - only real competition for PBC - also pretty durable, regenerates, also powerful at shooting and equally/more deadly in CC. If you have one - field it. No Daemon Engine stratagem really hurts this crab a lot.
I hope I did not miss anything .
Please consider those are just my oppinions and you are free to disagree.
See i think if you are doing a gunline style army hanging back a cheap chaos lord with the helm relic and arch contaminator could be fu. 20" bubble of rerolling 1's to hit and all wound rolls for any bloght weapon i.e blight launchers, plague burst mortars
Plague Reaper 45 points - > 30 points for those who have Lord of Contgion - so all of us lol.
Still expensive puts him on 150 points , a bit too high. I feel like Lord of Contagion with Manreaper is better option 137 points and D3 damage instead of 3 flat damage but valuable Strenght 7 so we can wound most vehicles on 4+.
Wish Plaguereaper was more like ~~25 points at best.
It's hard to pay 30 for 2h weapon on lord and still swing at S6.
Points are up on the DG rumor thread. If I am not mistaken, Typhus went up in cost. I dont have my DI book in front of me, but I thought he was 164 there, but in the codex he is 175.
Blight Haulers come to 142 total, still really wish I could put some plague weapons on him, but I'll still have at least 1 in every list.
mario88826 wrote: So since I know most of info from Codex already I can share my initial impression on units we have access to:
Heavy support :
Plagueburst crawler - who said we need to advance because we can't shoot - Now this thing is cheap, deadly and looks good on top of that. Heavy firepower support , no longer we miss Forgefiend or Havocs - though obliterators yes . Very good pick in fact best in Heavy slot.
Insanely tanky rivals Land Raider in this aspect and costs less than half !
Land Raider - same old Land Raider everyone has. I wouldn't take it - unless I will run Deathshroud/Lord of Contagion - those guys need reliable ride to do thier job. Situational.
Predator - if not Plagueburst Crawler ... Well here is alternative take - if you have Morty - then this Predator probably won't get nuked , so in fact it may live to shoot itself. And with BS3+ and 4 lascannons - at 48" it's our best AT choice actually. But then again once they start shooting it - won't survive too long. PBC beats it.
Defiler - only real competition for PBC - also pretty durable, regenerates, also powerful at shooting and equally/more deadly in CC. If you have one - field it. No Daemon Engine stratagem really hurts this crab a lot.
For me this is the most interesting choice. The modeler in me wants to Nurgle-fy a defiler and a few Predators. The pragmatic person in me tells me that it's not worth the effort of they're no good. What's the consensus opinion on the Defiler? I've seen it said both ways that it's good, and also that it's not worth points/slot.
Most of what Mario said is pretty spot on. Things I would add:
All types of bloat drones are so resilient. The cc version is like a death guard maulerfiend. Definitely worthwhile even outside of a pure death guard army.
Not sure why people are downing on poxwalkers. Typhus can make them Str 5 and T5 and if you use CP, you can make them untargetable AND bolster their numbers with super cheap cultists. Especially if you have CSM cultists, they have access to their own amazing strategems and FNP from slaanesh, not to mention -1 to hit and the ability to infiltrate (because lets be honest, we're all Alpharius now). Literally an amazing option.
Heavy support has a bunch of great options. I probably won't use the plagueburst crawlers but those look amazing.
The tallyman is a better version of an exalted champion, but sadly not in the HQ slot. That's the real issue with death guard. We have 1 good HQ and his name is typhus, which means that if we want to have a battalion (which is definitely necessary) we have to decide what the best other HQ slot is. I'm thinking that I don't like any of them sadly, but will have to choose the lesser of all evils. Psykers not having access to the CSM table makes them worthless because you'll already have Typhus and Mortarion. TLDR: I REALLY wish the tallyman was in the HQ section
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Marshal Loss wrote: Do people think the heavy blight launcher is worth it on the drone? Love the look of it.
Not the best option but good resilient long range. Would rather take the plagueburst or the other new tank probably. But all of death guard's tank choices are very good
mario88826 wrote: So since I know most of info from Codex already I can share my initial impression on units we have access to:
Heavy support :
Plagueburst crawler - who said we need to advance because we can't shoot - Now this thing is cheap, deadly and looks good on top of that. Heavy firepower support , no longer we miss Forgefiend or Havocs - though obliterators yes . Very good pick in fact best in Heavy slot.
Insanely tanky rivals Land Raider in this aspect and costs less than half !
Land Raider - same old Land Raider everyone has. I wouldn't take it - unless I will run Deathshroud/Lord of Contagion - those guys need reliable ride to do thier job. Situational.
Predator - if not Plagueburst Crawler ... Well here is alternative take - if you have Morty - then this Predator probably won't get nuked , so in fact it may live to shoot itself. And with BS3+ and 4 lascannons - at 48" it's our best AT choice actually. But then again once they start shooting it - won't survive too long. PBC beats it.
Defiler - only real competition for PBC - also pretty durable, regenerates, also powerful at shooting and equally/more deadly in CC. If you have one - field it. No Daemon Engine stratagem really hurts this crab a lot.
For me this is the most interesting choice. The modeler in me wants to Nurgle-fy a defiler and a few Predators. The pragmatic person in me tells me that it's not worth the effort of they're no good. What's the consensus opinion on the Defiler? I've seen it said both ways that it's good, and also that it's not worth points/slot.
I don't think there is a consensus opinion; I know personally I'm not impressed with them, and I think you'd generally be better served with the plagueburst crawler as your artillery over a defiler.
My rule of thumb with all units is to pick a unit that does one thing well, not two things mediocrely. Thumbs down on the defiled for me. But I can admit that I am biased against those Urgot crab legs
luke1705 wrote: The tallyman is a better version of an exalted champion, but sadly not in the HQ slot. That's the real issue with death guard. We have 1 good HQ and his name is typhus, which means that if we want to have a battalion (which is definitely necessary) we have to decide what the best other HQ slot is. I'm thinking that I don't like any of them sadly, but will have to choose the lesser of all evils. Psykers not having access to the CSM table makes them worthless because you'll already have Typhus and Mortarion. TLDR: I REALLY wish the tallyman was in the HQ section
This right here is my biggest (and probably only) issue with the DG codex. While I really think it is cool having single-model support characters in the elite section, the fact that most of DG's HQs are a little underwhelming makes me wish things like the tallyman, surgeon, etc could be taken instead.
I'd probably go with Daemon Prince and Typhus as far as HQ's go. Might not even bother with wings on the Prince, honestly; that'll save a few points. He'll mostly be there for support and to throw a spell each turn. Or else, I'll take the Malignant Plaguecaster; not only is his model really cool, but he can add to the Smites and various Nurgly spells you can throw out.
Not sure why anyone would ever take a regular Chaos Lord or Sorcerer in Death Guard; they don't have any of the cool stuff that makes Death Guard good. If Sorcerers got access to the regular CSM powers, they'd be playable, but oh well. For now, if I want the CSM powers I'll probably ally in Be'lakor and either some Malefic Lords or a full detachment of various Nurgle Daemons if I'm not running Mortarion.
luke1705 wrote: My rule of thumb with all units is to pick a unit that does one thing well, not two things mediocrely. Thumbs down on the defiled for me. But I can admit that I am biased against those Urgot crab legs
Well that's a shame... I may get one anyway for collecting purposes and friendly games. I'm guessing the new units are so much better to give incentive for sales.
The reason to take a cheap chaos lord is the rerolling 1"s to hit so he stands behond your rapid firing squads of plague marines with 3 plasma guns. Thats 6 dice at 18" thats lots of chances to roll 1"s and lose a precious model
Regarding HQs I think you can still take a Death Guard Sorcerer on Palanquin from the index and he'd have access to Dark Hereticus while staying Death Guard faction.
AlexHeap wrote: Regarding HQs I think you can still take a Death Guard Sorcerer on Palanquin from the index and he'd have access to Dark Hereticus while staying Death Guard faction.
Marshal Loss wrote: Do people think the heavy blight launcher is worth it on the drone? Love the look of it.
Let's be honest competition from Plaguespitter and Fleshmower is very high - both versions are potent. But Heavy Blight Launcher is as good. Mobility and flexibility it offers is unmatched.
With advancing your ownzone is up to 52" 6 shoots.
I think it's just wise to stick it to your Arch-Contaminator that hopefully can reroll 1's too (Morty / Daemon Prince/Lord) so you can wound even land Raiders if you need to.
In fact thanks to insane range / insane speed/ assault weapon/ fly rule - heavy blight launcher may end up being best weapon out there - from round 1 you can shoot almost anything on table - and you cannot be pinned down , you can always disengage and keep shooting.
The only way to make it stop shooting is killing it - and that is not particulary easy task.
Those are very bad news for our wallets - we probably will have use for all type of Drones ... Myself I just bought 2 more from DI box recently at good 9€ each. Hopefully I can convert one using weapon from box that will come soon.
Want at least 2 of each type.
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darthryan wrote: The reason to take a cheap chaos lord is the rerolling 1"s to hit so he stands behond your rapid firing squads of plague marines with 3 plasma guns. Thats 6 dice at 18" thats lots of chances to roll 1"s and lose a precious model
You suggest that people will take plasmas over blight launchers.
I wouldn't go as far. Not only you don't need lord to avoid exploding and still do on average 2 damage per shoot - but you still have better range of 24" . On top of that it's assault weapon - you can advance your Marines and still shoot 2 launchers with deadly 3+ precision.
Last but not least argument against plasma is arch-contaminator. This aura is bigger than rerolling 1's on lords.
And lets get our facts straight - even with rerolls plasma still explodes, it still sucks regardless of rerolls if you are up against -1 to hit more modifier (Alpha Legion/Raven Guard/Fliers etc).
Blight launcher is our really OP exclusive weapon - if you don't take it , you make a mistake. Plasma is just worse weapon, it's slightly better only in perfect circumstances - and blight launcher is just god-tier weapon. That you can advance with shoot whatever you want and it still performs pretty damn well.
As it stands best PM setup is : Plasma on Champion (as he can't take blight Launcher) , 2x blight launchers, 2x bolter dudes. Stick in cover or advance with myphitic hauler.
In my personal meta Morty is a no go, however I have not given up on using DG.
My personal plan on using them is mostly limited to DP's, Bloat drones, and blightlords.
My current plan is to take a DP warlord with the plate and the Arch contaminator WL trait, shield him and fly up the board with 3x drones to support a drop of 2 squads of blightlords. This has a lot of reroll wounds on the blightlords plague weapons and the drones plaguespitters (I am convinced this is still the way to go over fleshmower) . From what we know, how would one equip these blightlords? Is anything besides a plaguesword and plasma worthwhile?
Lord Commissar wrote: In my personal meta Morty is a no go, however I have not given up on using DG.
My personal plan on using them is mostly limited to DP's, Bloat drones, and blightlords.
My current plan is to take a DP warlord with the plate and the Arch contaminator WL trait, shield him and fly up the board with 3x drones to support a drop of 2 squads of blightlords. This has a lot of reroll wounds on the blightlords plague weapons and the drones plaguespitters (I am convinced this is still the way to go over fleshmower) . From what we know, how would one equip these blightlords? Is anything besides a plaguesword and plasma worthwhile?
I somehow dig into your idea - Morty is not necessarily tanky enough for 470 points, if he was priced like Magnus ... on top of that he is much slower than Magnus - who can at least deal crazy damage, very fast.
Generally speaking I wouldn't equip 60 points model(Blightlord) total with plasma at all since you won't have your prince in time to give them rerolls. And without rerolls gl killing your blightlords exploding 60 points per model. Give them blight launcher even if one and rest idk even combi bolter aint half bad tbh with rapid fire of 18". And suddenly your blightlord cost 45 points. One should take always flail lol - even if he can't shoot - he is tremendous threat for just 10 points flail.
Also never take sword - bubotic axe is many times better - +1 S AP -2 vs S User and AP -3 - in this case axe always goes as winner - you wound typical infantry on 3+ instead of 4+ with sword, you wound even T8 targets on 5+ , great synergy with putrescent blades.
And really combi plasma is insanely expensive and can blow up your VERY expensive unit - that otherwise most tanky terminators in entire 40katm.
Blightlords in my eyes are more like super-tanky threat that can deal some serious damage - especially in CC - but main job of those guys is tie up your opponent - so rest of your army can deal damage along them - Drones/Artillery/Characters.
As of recent I see people really value plasma too high in my eyes. It's not bad - I'm not saying it. But once you equip your Blightlords with plasma you suddenly pay ~~300 points per 5 models - and you have to take terminator lord aswell - another ~~125 points. NOT WORTH IT.
Blightlords are not like other termies - they are very resillient to plasma/lascannon fire. Many times more than normal terminator. And they can even to some extent shrug off mortal wounds.
You guys misunderstand power of them - they are not there to wreck enemy lines - they must be credible threat with insane tankyness and at same time reasonbly priced. Plasma is not reasonably priced.
Plasma is good on cheap units , where you are okay with them exploding in worst case. I just can't imagine 60 points models killing themselves ...
mario88826 wrote: Plasma is good on cheap units , where you are okay with them exploding in worst case. I just can't imagine 60 points models killing themselves ...
Maybe I missed something - is the consensus that firing non-supercharged plasma is not worth the points?
Daemon Prince of Nurgle
Suppurating Plate, Talons & Hellforged Sword
[156]
Elites:
Noxious Blightbringer
Plasma Pistol, Bell
[70]
Troops:
(7) Plague Marines
2x Flails, 2x Blight Launchers, Icon of Despair
Plasma Gun, Power Fist
[216]
(7) Plague Marines
2x Flails, 2x Blight Launchers, Icon of Despair
Plasma Gun, Power Fist
[216]
(20) Poxwalkers
[120]
Fast Attack:
Myphitic Blight-hauler
Missile Launchers, Multimeltas
[142]
Heavy:
Plagueburst Crawler
Mortar, 2x Entropy Cannon, Heavy Slugger
[156]
Plagueburst Crawler
Mortar, 2x Entropy Cannon, Heavy Slugger
[156]
Superheavy Aux Detachment
Mortarion
[470]
[1997]
I am sure this is rubbish though. But it definitely has a lot of models I want (and many I can't fit in too!). Think this will survive in a highly competitive environment?
AlexHeap wrote: Regarding HQs I think you can still take a Death Guard Sorcerer on Palanquin from the index and he'd have access to Dark Hereticus while staying Death Guard faction.
Technically.. it's likely to be faqd
I wouldn't hold your breath on any impending FAQ allowing that. Definite loophole and an oversight that will be fixed IMO
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Eldenfirefly wrote: Well, can't go too far wrong with psykers. More psychic spells are always good. Or just get a cheap lord for the reroll 1 to hit.
The lord might be the way I wind up going. The issue with psykers is that Mortarion and Typhus already exist. That's a lot of powers already. I guess I gain a fair amount of smites if I dedicate a guy to having one smite each, but if you can't cast smite because a single guy needs to cast 2 other powers, then you lose a lot of effectiveness. And even then, it's a bit much for a guy enabling you to smite what are most likely chaff units for the first few turns.
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Lord Commissar wrote: In my personal meta Morty is a no go, however I have not given up on using DG.
Do you mean to say that they don't like you using LOW/primarchs, or that you think he would not be effective vs your opponents?
If the former, that's a shame. If the latter, as long as you can increase turn 1-2 threat priority he is fine. Make it so that your opponent HAS to shoot other things or suffer the consequences. I know it's not pure death guard, but if your opponent is dealing with infiltrating zerkers turn 1 plus a squad of oblits dropping down and double firing, I doubt there'll be too much directed Mortarion's way
mario88826 wrote: Plasma is good on cheap units , where you are okay with them exploding in worst case. I just can't imagine 60 points models killing themselves ...
Maybe I missed something - is the consensus that firing non-supercharged plasma is not worth the points?
Absolutely , 1 damage weapon with good S and AP but still 1 damage ? You can get storm bolter for 2 pts 4 shoots.
Daemon Prince of Nurgle
Suppurating Plate, Talons & Hellforged Sword
[156]
Elites:
Noxious Blightbringer
Plasma Pistol, Bell
[70]
Troops:
(7) Plague Marines
2x Flails, 2x Blight Launchers, Icon of Despair
Plasma Gun, Power Fist
[216]
(7) Plague Marines
2x Flails, 2x Blight Launchers, Icon of Despair
Plasma Gun, Power Fist
[216]
(20) Poxwalkers
[120]
Fast Attack:
Myphitic Blight-hauler
Missile Launchers, Multimeltas
[142]
Heavy:
Plagueburst Crawler
Mortar, 2x Entropy Cannon, Heavy Slugger
[156]
Plagueburst Crawler
Mortar, 2x Entropy Cannon, Heavy Slugger
[156]
Superheavy Aux Detachment
Mortarion
[470]
[1997]
I am sure this is rubbish though. But it definitely has a lot of models I want (and many I can't fit in too!). Think this will survive in a highly competitive environment?
Sorry mate that is not good setup at all.
First of all there is NOONE at all to benefit from Morty auras around him - no DP terminators/no drones to enjoy his archcontaminator etc.
Your Plague Marines are pretty insanely expensive for simple 1 wound troops - focus either on CC or shooting - if you do both - then when you shoot you dont swing flail - if you charge into cc you cant shoot blight launchers.
Morty is too big of investement to leave him on his own.
First of all there is NOONE at all to benefit from Morty auras around him - no DP terminators/no drones to enjoy his archcontaminator etc.
Your Plague Marines are pretty insanely expensive for simple 1 wound troops - focus either on CC or shooting - if you do both - then when you shoot you dont swing flail - if you charge into cc you cant shoot blight launchers.
Morty is too big of investement to leave him on his own.
So what is the current rule of thumb for escorting Morty?
First of all there is NOONE at all to benefit from Morty auras around him - no DP terminators/no drones to enjoy his archcontaminator etc.
Your Plague Marines are pretty insanely expensive for simple 1 wound troops - focus either on CC or shooting - if you do both - then when you shoot you dont swing flail - if you charge into cc you cant shoot blight launchers.
Morty is too big of investement to leave him on his own.
So what is the current rule of thumb for escorting Morty?
Tons of Bloat drones - regardless of weapon they have and Blightlords to teleport in. Deathshroud are sadly very expensive and not so reliable if they fail charge.
Supported by PBCs and Plague Marines ... i think. I will post my "to go " list.
Like generally I have hard time not to justify taking tons of drones especially we all have them from starting box ;p
General idea is to check if your opponent is really okay with ignoring Fleshmower moving to mop his precious units and so he may divert some fire from Morty ;p.
Only tip I would have from my list of meagre experience is to take the plasma guns off the champions - having a blightbringer + blight launchers makes it look like you want to advance while firing, which plasma guns will be unable to do.
Marshal Loss wrote: Only tip I would have from my list of meagre experience is to take the plasma guns off the champions - having a blightbringer + blight launchers makes it look like you want to advance while firing, which plasma guns will be unable to do.
Very good point, I was thinking about it - and 13 points saved is pretty big deal. But then again at some point once you are in rapid fire range - you will stop advancing. Although it's debatable if it's worth to take it or not.
No nope plasma is still too good to give up on Death Guard - I mean blight launcher is better but we still got best plasma range amon all damn factions - so keep it.
Totally out of left field here but I'm new to Chaos from my Necrons. I'm starting a DG army and have always wanted to get a knight at some point. Is there any viable reason to take a Chaos Knight along with a DG force?
Dew wrote: Totally out of left field here but I'm new to Chaos from my Necrons. I'm starting a DG army and have always wanted to get a knight at some point. Is there any viable reason to take a Chaos Knight along with a DG force?
I've considered this perhaps to help take the heat off of Mortarion. Hell, maybe run Morty, Magnus, and a Knight in a Superheavy Detachment, and then 500-600 points of whatever else you can fit (maybe cheap HQ and some Foetid Bloat Drones in an Outrider detachment). Could be fun!
Dew wrote: Totally out of left field here but I'm new to Chaos from my Necrons. I'm starting a DG army and have always wanted to get a knight at some point. Is there any viable reason to take a Chaos Knight along with a DG force?
I've considered this perhaps to help take the heat off of Mortarion. Hell, maybe run Morty, Magnus, and a Knight in a Superheavy Detachment, and then 500-600 points of whatever else you can fit (maybe cheap HQ and some Foetid Bloat Drones in an Outrider detachment). Could be fun!
I was thinking about Land Raider packed with some cool elites and deathshroud. But then again they will just whatever doesnt have miasma ;x
So I have 402 points left, but only +1CP. I'm thinking 3 MSU cultist squads for a battalion, but I dont know what other HQs to bring. Probably Typhus just cause he is the most effective overall.
Are death guard reasonably competitive without Morty? Personally I hate this growing trend of massive iconic models like mag, mort, knights etc. becoming lynchpins for armies.
Actually, I think a nurgle daemons detachment would be better. Does anyone know if nurglings count as troops?
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snottlebocket wrote: Are death guard reasonably competitive without Morty? Personally I hate this growing trend of massive iconic models like mag, mort, knights etc. becoming lynchpins for armies.
Hard to say right now with how new everything is, but probably not top-tier tourney competitive. Bloat Drones and Morty seem amazing, but nothing else stands out as tournement level yet. Most unit seem pretty solid and definitely fluffy though.
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: Actually, I think a nurgle daemons detachment would be better. Does anyone know if nurglings count as troops?
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snottlebocket wrote: Are death guard reasonably competitive without Morty? Personally I hate this growing trend of massive iconic models like mag, mort, knights etc. becoming lynchpins for armies.
Hard to say right now with how new everything is, but probably not top-tier tourney competitive. Bloat Drones and Morty seem amazing, but nothing else stands out as tournement level yet. Most unit seem pretty solid and definitely fluffy though.
I love fluffy, unfortunately my local meta is such that trying to play fluffy leads nowhere. Most people here are happy to play a knight at 1k and girly man at anything over 1k.
My brother and I were debating whether or not the 1 CP usage of blowing up a nurgle vehicle you own without rolling a dice is overpowered or not. I use to reroll explosion tables with a 1 in 6 chance. He states players will bait and play you around the cp. I said that's a good thing so you force them
to play in a manner which can save you a cp. It's either that or lose a whole squad to a close combat hellbrute. Everyone at the store was laughing because we all had suicide explosion experiences in the past losing entire chaos lords, 30 ork boyz, and more in the past to explosions. Any thoughts?
Marshal Loss wrote: Only tip I would have from my list of meagre experience is to take the plasma guns off the champions - having a blightbringer + blight launchers makes it look like you want to advance while firing, which plasma guns will be unable to do.
Very good point, I was thinking about it - and 13 points saved is pretty big deal. But then again at some point once you are in rapid fire range - you will stop advancing. Although it's debatable if it's worth to take it or not.
No nope plasma is still too good to give up on Death Guard - I mean blight launcher is better but we still got best plasma range amon all damn factions - so keep it.
This is the reason why I will be running 3 plasma in my 5 man PM squads. I would love to use all blightlaunchers but since it is not an option it does not make sense to mix and match. I would always be losing out on one of my chapter traits if I mix weapons. I guess I can't complain having 3 plasma in a T5 unit that only costs 134pts is a steal.
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TasadarTheMadBear wrote: Trying to figure out a 2k list for Morty, I'll be using Magnus this weekend to proxy him. So far I have the following:
So I have 402 points left, but only +1CP. I'm thinking 3 MSU cultist squads for a battalion, but I dont know what other HQs to bring. Probably Typhus just cause he is the most effective overall.
-2x Bloat drones w/fleshmowers=268pts not 272.
-Why take the Blight launcher on a close combat terminator squad? Seems I would just go with the cheap anti infantry combo bolters at 228pts
-I think with the points reduction taking the hellforge swords is much better on the talons (also put the suppurating plate relic on him
Marshal Loss wrote: Only tip I would have from my list of meagre experience is to take the plasma guns off the champions - having a blightbringer + blight launchers makes it look like you want to advance while firing, which plasma guns will be unable to do.
Very good point, I was thinking about it - and 13 points saved is pretty big deal. But then again at some point once you are in rapid fire range - you will stop advancing. Although it's debatable if it's worth to take it or not.
No nope plasma is still too good to give up on Death Guard - I mean blight launcher is better but we still got best plasma range amon all damn factions - so keep it.
This is the reason why I will be running 3 plasma in my 5 man PM squads. I would love to use all blightlaunchers but since it is not an option it does not make sense to mix and match. I would always be losing out on one of my chapter traits if I mix weapons. I guess I can't complain having 3 plasma in a T5 unit that only costs 134pts is a steal.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TasadarTheMadBear wrote: Trying to figure out a 2k list for Morty, I'll be using Magnus this weekend to proxy him. So far I have the following:
So I have 402 points left, but only +1CP. I'm thinking 3 MSU cultist squads for a battalion, but I dont know what other HQs to bring. Probably Typhus just cause he is the most effective overall.
-2x Bloat drones w/fleshmowers=268pts not 272.
-Why take the Blight launcher on a close combat terminator squad? Seems I would just go with the cheap anti infantry combo bolters at 228pts
-I think with the points reduction taking the hellforge swords is much better on the talons (also put the suppurating plate relic on him
I would take this blight launcher myself too for following reason - he still can hold CC weapon, this is very resilient unit so extra 14 pts won't hurt. You can and probably most of the time you will fail deep strike charge so you may be shooting for ~~2 turns very often. And blight launcher is pretty damn good weapon.I talk about Blightlords of course.
snottlebocket wrote: Are death guard reasonably competitive without Morty? Personally I hate this growing trend of massive iconic models like mag, mort, knights etc. becoming lynchpins for armies.
Define reasonably competitive. Do you want to go 2-1 or have a decent shot at winning a RTT? Then yeah you're fine. It depends how far you want to be able to go. There are better mixed or pure CSM lists than a pure death guard list can have, and it's not just because of Magnus. It's mostly the units that actually get work done that death guard don't have access to - Oblits, Zerkers, Noise Marines, and their associated strategems.
In my personal RTT meta, there are a lot of top tier tournament players, so I would likely go 1-2 at most RTTs if I brought a pure DG army. But I think they are holier mid tier to lower top tier. Can go toe to toe with any army that isn't IG or CSM and do just fine - it's just that those armies tend to be what the competitive tournament players are using right now.
EDIT: FYI my answer is about pure death guard in general. Just tossing morty in does not fix that
snottlebocket wrote: Are death guard reasonably competitive without Morty? Personally I hate this growing trend of massive iconic models like mag, mort, knights etc. becoming lynchpins for armies.
Define reasonably competitive. Do you want to go 2-1 or have a decent shot at winning a RTT? Then yeah you're fine. It depends how far you want to be able to go. There are better mixed or pure CSM lists than a pure death guard list can have, and it's not just because of Magnus. It's mostly the units that actually get work done that death guard don't have access to - Oblits, Zerkers, Noise Marines, and their associated strategems.
In my personal RTT meta, there are a lot of top tier tournament players, so I would likely go 1-2 at most RTTs if I brought a pure DG army. But I think they are holier mid tier to lower top tier. Can go toe to toe with any army that isn't IG or CSM and do just fine - it's just that those armies tend to be what the competitive tournament players are using right now.
EDIT: FYI my answer is about pure death guard in general. Just tossing morty in does not fix that
No tournaments. I just don't want to feel like I'm just a punching bag. People are pretty cheese oriented here.
1. DP wings seems to be free (until the faq i assume?)
2. DP, best trait? i was thinking 4+ DR
3. Best way to do Biologus + cmd pt for grenade death spam? was thinking 9 PM with him in a rhino, charge it up there jump out and fun times
4. Blight Hauler, 142pts what are we thinking? worth it?
2k first draft (rework of models i'v had for 15years.. so kinda bit set in stone for me
So I have 402 points left, but only +1CP. I'm thinking 3 MSU cultist squads for a battalion, but I dont know what other HQs to bring. Probably Typhus just cause he is the most effective overall.
-2x Bloat drones w/fleshmowers=268pts not 272.
-Why take the Blight launcher on a close combat terminator squad? Seems I would just go with the cheap anti infantry combo bolters at 228pts
-I think with the points reduction taking the hellforge swords is much better on the talons (also put the suppurating plate relic on him
-99+24+12=136x2=272
-I think the blight launcher is a steal at 14 points and adds some firepower incase they fail their charge (which there is a solid chamce of them doing).
-Definitely putting the plate on him, can't say I agree on the sword though. Those extra attacks seem worth it, but thats just my opinion.
Still wondering what to do with my remaining 400 points. I could save them for summoning daemons (mainly a herald) or I could just add a daemon of nurgle battalion for epidemus, a herald, some nurglings, and +3CP. I'm worried the herald will fall too far behind all my DG sto support them throughout the game. Any thoughts on what to spend the last bit of points on?
Has anyone made some calculations on when blight launchers are better than plasma guns on plague marines? i'm having trouble finding reasons to field blight launchers :( (and they are soo cool )
Milkshaker wrote: Has anyone made some calculations on when blight launchers are better than plasma guns on plague marines? i'm having trouble finding reasons to field blight launchers :( (and they are soo cool )
And I have trouble finding situation when plasma is better. Pro tip - start calculating MANDATORY prince/lord to babysit anyone who shoots plasma - tons of points.
Blight launcher got average 2 damage at 24" after advancing with need to worry about exploding.
People underestimate cost of such lord/prince and being forced to actually stick with this marine unit.
Also stop thinking it's perfect scenario - your lord can get killed or be forced to do other stuff. Blight launcher is regardless what you do - always powerful - for mere 1 point more.
Last argument is that it can shoot even from turn 1 - you can easily advance and send 2 shoots at 24". Where plasma may get lucky if it can dish 1 shoot - after just moving.
Yet another argument can be - against Ravenguard/Alpha Legion any to hit modifiers plasma hands down wins contest to be worst weapon in 40k. When again Blight Launcher doesn't care.'
And it's pretty neat against high toughness targets aswell thanks to wound rerolls and with archcontaminator (you dont really need this guy - but he helps) you wound T8 targets with 55% chance. Again without risking to die etc.
By taking launcher you just pay for flexibility and it's flexible as hell.
Milkshaker wrote: Has anyone made some calculations on when blight launchers are better than plasma guns on plague marines? i'm having trouble finding reasons to field blight launchers :( (and they are soo cool )
And I have trouble finding situation when plasma is better. Pro tip - start calculating MANDATORY prince/lord to babysit anyone who shoots plasma - tons of points.
Blight launcher got average 2 damage at 24" after advancing with need to worry about exploding.
People underestimate cost of such lord/prince and being forced to actually stick with this marine unit.
Also stop thinking it's perfect scenario - your lord can get killed or be forced to do other stuff. Blight launcher is regardless what you do - always powerful - for mere 1 point more.
Last argument is that it can shoot even from turn 1 - you can easily advance and send 2 shoots at 24". Where plasma may get lucky if it can dish 1 shoot - after just moving.
Yet another argument can be - against Ravenguard/Alpha Legion any to hit modifiers plasma hands down wins contest to be worst weapon in 40k. When again Blight Launcher doesn't care.'
And it's pretty neat against high toughness targets aswell thanks to wound rerolls and with archcontaminator (you dont really need this guy - but he helps) you wound T8 targets with 55% chance. Again without risking to die etc.
By taking launcher you just pay for flexibility and it's flexible as hell.
Versus 2 wound targets the supercharged plasma has a significant edge eg. 69.4% v 34.6% to kill an undamaged Primaris once hit. In general I agree with Mario, in the games I have played so far keeping the PM in the DP bubble all game hasn't been a viable option.
Milkshaker wrote: Has anyone made some calculations on when blight launchers are better than plasma guns on plague marines? i'm having trouble finding reasons to field blight launchers :( (and they are soo cool )
And I have trouble finding situation when plasma is better. Pro tip - start calculating MANDATORY prince/lord to babysit anyone who shoots plasma - tons of points.
Blight launcher got average 2 damage at 24" after advancing with need to worry about exploding.
People underestimate cost of such lord/prince and being forced to actually stick with this marine unit.
Also stop thinking it's perfect scenario - your lord can get killed or be forced to do other stuff. Blight launcher is regardless what you do - always powerful - for mere 1 point more.
Last argument is that it can shoot even from turn 1 - you can easily advance and send 2 shoots at 24". Where plasma may get lucky if it can dish 1 shoot - after just moving.
Yet another argument can be - against Ravenguard/Alpha Legion any to hit modifiers plasma hands down wins contest to be worst weapon in 40k. When again Blight Launcher doesn't care.'
And it's pretty neat against high toughness targets aswell thanks to wound rerolls and with archcontaminator (you dont really need this guy - but he helps) you wound T8 targets with 55% chance. Again without risking to die etc.
By taking launcher you just pay for flexibility and it's flexible as hell.
Versus 2 wound targets the supercharged plasma has a significant edge eg. 69.4% v 34.6% to kill an undamaged Primaris once hit. In general I agree with Mario, in the games I have played so far keeping the PM in the DP bubble all game hasn't been a viable option.
Well I never said plasma under prefered conditions doesn't rock . There are reasons why it's considered very powerful and op weapon in 8th. But still we got access to alternative that is very potent and not reliable on rerolling 1's ... i dont like things that only work under perfect conditions.
Someone can ruin your day like alpha legion . Where is your plasma now hehe.
I'd rather run plasma with a unit I can more easily position, like our terminators, than on normal plague marines myself. I've found the 18" RF works well for deepstriking, as it isn't hard to bubble wrap so that you aren't in 12" of juicy targets post deepstrike, but trickier with 18".
The point is to screen the poxwalkers with cloud of flies and rapidly advance under noxius blightbringer.
But most likely first turns opponent will have to deal with decimators and drones.
Crawlers for poking units behind los blocks and general back line fire support.
I would love to include dragon, but can't afford droping anything apart from the drones.
Probably will swap drones for spawns anyway to get objsec or just leave 103 points for summoning.
Or drop surgeon and drones for another crawler and couple cultists.
For extra lulz i will test making DP the warlord and placing him with arch-contaminator near the crawlers.
I'm thinking that they could compete with Cultists now for troop tax units if you're looking to build up to a Battalion or Brigade detachment. Plus the standard Nurgling models seem to fit a Death Guard army more than the standard GW cultist models.
Quick aside, my first question is how do they (and other fw models for that matter) fit into detachments? Do I need to take a separate detachment or do they fit into my Death Guard ones. I've tried to figure it out and still don't know. Probably missing something obvious somewhere...
If they do in fact fit in, they seem like an interesting option to me. You get +1 bs, 2 extra wounds, carrion haunter, extra weapon and regeneration but lose out on plague weapons and cost a little more. Guessing they might not benefit from other auras as well and cost a little more than the new drones. Just wondering if anyone had given them a go yet.
Bjt0012 wrote: Any thoughts on the FW Greater Blight Drone?
Quick aside, my first question is how do they (and other fw models for that matter) fit into detachments? Do I need to take a separate detachment or do they fit into my Death Guard ones. I've tried to figure it out and still don't know. Probably missing something obvious somewhere...
If they do in fact fit in, they seem like an interesting option to me. You get +1 bs, 2 extra wounds, carrion haunter, extra weapon and regeneration but lose out on plague weapons and cost a little more. Guessing they might not benefit from other auras as well and cost a little more than the new drones. Just wondering if anyone had given them a go yet.
The FAQ answers that question:
"You can only choose for a unit to be from the Death Guard Legion if it has the Nurgle keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Nurgle. You cannot choose for a Hellforged Rapier Battery, a Chaos Hellwright or
a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant to be from the Death Guard."
So the:
Blight Drone
Decimator
Plague Hulk of Nurgle
Contemptor Dread
Land Raider Proteus
Land Raider Achilles
Scorpius
Sicaran
Predator
Spartan
Deredeo
Leviathan
Dreadclaw
Kharybdis
Etc can all be in a death guard detachment.
Not really a whole lot of benefit to that other than not needing to run a CSM Detachment, having the ability to use DG strategems, and (possibly) having deredeos and leviathans use the DG move and fire heavy weapons without penalty chapter tactic. That should be FAQ'd honestly.
Yeah, given that they did FAQ it to allow Legion traits from the CSM book to affect FW dreadnoughts, it's an important question to ask if it's intended for the Death Guard version to work for them.
I'm thinking that they could compete with Cultists now for troop tax units if you're looking to build up to a Battalion or Brigade detachment. Plus the standard Nurgling models seem to fit a Death Guard army more than the standard GW cultist models.
The demons don't have the death guard keyword, only the nurgle keyword. Using them as tax would lose you the death guard benefits.
5 blight lord terminators with plasma combi's + a chaos lord termi with plasma combi (for rerolling those 1's when overcharging)... too expensive or an efficient use of deep striking?
I'm thinking that they could compete with Cultists now for troop tax units if you're looking to build up to a Battalion or Brigade detachment. Plus the standard Nurgling models seem to fit a Death Guard army more than the standard GW cultist models.
The demons don't have the death guard keyword, only the nurgle keyword. Using them as tax would lose you the death guard benefits.
5 blight lord terminators with plasma combi's + a chaos lord termi with plasma combi (for rerolling those 1's when overcharging)... too expensive or an efficient use of deep striking?
A lot people debate about it - I for example don't like this combi plasma idea - 12 shoots each 1/36 to blow yourself up - sounds to me like you are killing more than 1/3 of blightlord in each salvo. And this setup is stupidly expensive aswell. ~~60 pts per body + lord in terminator armor it's around 430-440 !
Better take combi bolter/blight launcher blightlords/cc weapons and act as distraction at 45 points per model without lord - you just saved around 180 points(more than new tank) - they still can deal good damage - and your opponent has to deal with them. Now how he can do that ? It has been proved by math that plasma is not a way go against them because of trio of T5/Cataphractii/Disgustingly Resilient. Basically they are there at reasonable price tag when your Heavy Blight Launcher Drones/ PBC hammer them from afar. And at same time supported by advancing blight launcher marines.
This way you can put heavy pressure on your opponent from turn 1 - and they don't really have any good targets to shoot at. All equally solid and tenacious.
And on top of that Morty is closing in . .. so even most dedicated gunline may have serious trouble finding soft and viable target - especially that terminators are at his door, Morty with miasma on him is advancing too. And there are no wraps that save him from Plague Mortars/ Heavy Blight launchers and Blightlords who can rapid fire at 18". He eats damage this way or another and there is no easy solution how to stop it as platforms for those weapons are most resillient in 40k.
Remember guys - points you invest in combi plasma could be spent on another long range heavy blight launcher or PBC.
And Blightlords are not pushovers in CC either.
BUT if you heavily overinvest those guys - your opponent now has clear target for all his guns. Don't make his decision too easy.
You drop on resilient but still 2 wound models too many points ? Expect focused fire. And you want to divert this fire only.
Edit : Alternative approach : Take ... 10 of them. Don't take Morty - because you want miasma on those terminators now.
Now they are close to invicible to plasma fire (unless shooting dudes want to kill themselves) .
Now with miasma T5/FNP/4+ invu ... they can wreck anything around with thier own plasma (though still pretty huge risk) - almost impossible to tarpit for long 10 terminators who are not pushovers at all.
So Miasma + Veterans of Long War on them every turn. So plasma will wound basically anything except t8 at 2+ , hit on 3+ , rerolling 1's.
Now sure such unit without even lord/sorcerer is ~~580 points, but if you can give them miasma and not to Morty - then it may be damn worth it.
In such case you don't give a gak if they focus on your termies all they got - as this still won't be enough. They are pretty damn durable against mortal wounds aswell.
So my logic tells me that if you want to go plasma / lord then go HARD and bless them with miasma - otherwise not worth it. With unit of 10 your miasma is very useful and so is veterans of long war.
I'm thinking that they could compete with Cultists now for troop tax units if you're looking to build up to a Battalion or Brigade detachment. Plus the standard Nurgling models seem to fit a Death Guard army more than the standard GW cultist models.
The demons don't have the death guard keyword, only the nurgle keyword. Using them as tax would lose you the death guard benefits.
Run the demons in there own detachment and your good, not only do they make cheap battalions, adding heralds adds cheap casters..
I'm thinking that they could compete with Cultists now for troop tax units if you're looking to build up to a Battalion or Brigade detachment. Plus the standard Nurgling models seem to fit a Death Guard army more than the standard GW cultist models.
The demons don't have the death guard keyword, only the nurgle keyword. Using them as tax would lose you the death guard benefits.
Run the demons in there own detachment and your good, not only do they make cheap battalions, adding heralds adds cheap casters..
That is good suggestion, if I'm not mistake you can also summon herald pretty easily , can you ? He would boost strenght of all daemon engines by 1 aswell.
Milkshaker wrote: Has anyone made some calculations on when blight launchers are better than plasma guns on plague marines? i'm having trouble finding reasons to field blight launchers :( (and they are soo cool )
And I have trouble finding situation when plasma is better. Pro tip - start calculating MANDATORY prince/lord to babysit anyone who shoots plasma - tons of points.
Blight launcher got average 2 damage at 24" after advancing with need to worry about exploding.
People underestimate cost of such lord/prince and being forced to actually stick with this marine unit.
Also stop thinking it's perfect scenario - your lord can get killed or be forced to do other stuff. Blight launcher is regardless what you do - always powerful - for mere 1 point more.
Last argument is that it can shoot even from turn 1 - you can easily advance and send 2 shoots at 24". Where plasma may get lucky if it can dish 1 shoot - after just moving.
Yet another argument can be - against Ravenguard/Alpha Legion any to hit modifiers plasma hands down wins contest to be worst weapon in 40k. When again Blight Launcher doesn't care.'
And it's pretty neat against high toughness targets aswell thanks to wound rerolls and with archcontaminator (you dont really need this guy - but he helps) you wound T8 targets with 55% chance. Again without risking to die etc.
By taking launcher you just pay for flexibility and it's flexible as hell.
I disagree with this assessment. Here are the reasons plasma is better:
-It is cheaper
-the damage is not random
-your sergeant can't take a blight launcher so if you take plasma/blight launcher squads you will always be wasting part of your DG traits
-plasma is AP 3
-plasma is either T7 or T8 and higher strength usually meaning you wound on 2-3s
-blight launchers require an archcontaminator character to even be decent.
Milkshaker wrote: Has anyone made some calculations on when blight launchers are better than plasma guns on plague marines? i'm having trouble finding reasons to field blight launchers :( (and they are soo cool )
And I have trouble finding situation when plasma is better. Pro tip - start calculating MANDATORY prince/lord to babysit anyone who shoots plasma - tons of points.
Blight launcher got average 2 damage at 24" after advancing with need to worry about exploding.
People underestimate cost of such lord/prince and being forced to actually stick with this marine unit.
Also stop thinking it's perfect scenario - your lord can get killed or be forced to do other stuff. Blight launcher is regardless what you do - always powerful - for mere 1 point more.
Last argument is that it can shoot even from turn 1 - you can easily advance and send 2 shoots at 24". Where plasma may get lucky if it can dish 1 shoot - after just moving.
Yet another argument can be - against Ravenguard/Alpha Legion any to hit modifiers plasma hands down wins contest to be worst weapon in 40k. When again Blight Launcher doesn't care.'
And it's pretty neat against high toughness targets aswell thanks to wound rerolls and with archcontaminator (you dont really need this guy - but he helps) you wound T8 targets with 55% chance. Again without risking to die etc.
By taking launcher you just pay for flexibility and it's flexible as hell.
I disagree with this assessment. Here are the reasons plasma is better:
-It is cheaper
-the damage is not random
-your sergeant can't take a blight launcher so if you take plasma/blight launcher squads you will always be wasting part of your DG traits
-plasma is AP 3
-plasma is either T7 or T8 and higher strength usually meaning you wound on 2-3s
-blight launchers require an archcontaminator character to even be decent.
Not this again ... Don't be Luke V2 - i never said plasma is not better in some scenarios. I just said blight launcher is better overall. That's all.
Cheaper 13pts vs 14pts on 60 point Blightlord sure is difference that should decide which is better. But okay
- Archcontaminator - not true at all, it's still decent vs anything , mostly against infantry - yes. Now ... i don't need archcontaminator, but you tell me when your lord - dies or gets out of range to give you rerolling 1's. You see ? I don't need arch-contaminator - but you may aswell fold game if you field tons of plasma without rerolls.
- Yeah sergeant can't take blight launcher - shame but so what ? You still dont want to shoot your plasma before 18" so you advance anyway to shoot 2 times instead of once ? And 2 blight launchers can keep shooting more than squad of 3 plasmas 18" to 24". On top of that once you fast advance into 18" - faster than squad of just plasma who start shooting at 24" - you just keep moving. After that both squads behave similar way.
- about higher STR and AP - i'm kinda disappointed that after so long discussion someone still believes I don't know about strenghts of Plasma weapons. I do . But sadly they are subject to overheating and mandatory lord nearby. When blight launcher is completly good on its own.
In fact I will go further and claim that Blight Launchers are less expensive than plasma - you don't need some fella around to not kill yourself on 1's or 2's if you suffer any to hit modifier - you can use those over 100 points somewhere else. And still punch hard at better ranges than plasma. That alone is enough to win this comparison. But there is more. In fact Archcontaminator is just yet another reason why you take blight launcher - but you are completely fine without him.
To further reinforce Blight launcher position - let's say that main targets for plasma and blight launcher are elite infantry of T4/T5 - against such targets your squad with plasma or blight launchers - both could benefit from Veteran of Long War. (especially T5's)
But fact is clear that Blight Launcher beats Plasma in its own turf - wounds on 2+ and reroll 1's . Raising to wound chance from ~~84% to ~~97%. Now tell me you don't want to throw 1CP on this glorious stratagem regardless how you fit your blightlords for example.
Also Blight launchers don't suddenly become dead points once your precious lord gets killed by something.
Listen I like to theorycraft. But real application on table and theory are 2 different things.
Right now you argue to me - that you will squeeze all your plasma/shooty squads around your 6" bubble of lord. Good luck controlling any objective bro. You cannot afford to make such massive mistakes if you even hope to win any single game !
You sure you play DG not Imperial Guards/ Guilliman Razorbacks ? Because sounds like this to me .
Plasma doesn't hold a candle to Blight Launcher doesn't matter how you approach that.
Plasma is not an awful strategy but if you're going to go all out with that, just use normal CSM terminators. They're cheaper and get to fire twice. Because slaanesh.
The only benefits are that nurgle terminators get DR and get to double tap at 18". Those are real benefits, but not worth sacrificing double firing.
I'm still a fan of plasma myself on the plague marine squads. I don't overcharge against most targets, so the overheating isn't often an issue. Usually I want my troops taking out infantry units that are frequently camped out in cover (devastators, for example), so the extra ap is worth more than the multiple damage. When my heavy weapons do fail to kill some big, scary target, that's when I have a troops squad trying to help finish off the last few wounds and there again I like having the higher strength and better ap as well as the additional shots from running 3 guns in a squad instead of 2.
I think the biggest thing is not wanting to mix and match to me. I'd run the blightlaunchers so I could advance and shoot if I didn't have to run 1 less in the unit. Running 2 blightlaunchers and 1 plasma I'm afraid I would still just end up never advancing because I don't want to waste the plasma gun on the champ. I wish the champ could take the blight launcher as well.
lessthanjeff wrote: I'm still a fan of plasma myself on the plague marine squads. I don't overcharge against most targets, so the overheating isn't often an issue. Usually I want my troops taking out infantry units that are frequently camped out in cover (devastators, for example), so the extra ap is worth more than the multiple damage. When my heavy weapons do fail to kill some big, scary target, that's when I have a troops squad trying to help finish off the last few wounds and there again I like having the higher strength and better ap as well as the additional shots from running 3 guns in a squad instead of 2.
I think the biggest thing is not wanting to mix and match to me. I'd run the blightlaunchers so I could advance and shoot if I didn't have to run 1 less in the unit. Running 2 blightlaunchers and 1 plasma I'm afraid I would still just end up never advancing because I don't want to waste the plasma gun on the champ. I wish the champ could take the blight launcher as well.
But those weapons can really work well together. I can't see how you want to sit at 24" shooting 1 plasma projectile instead of getting in 18" as fast as possible.
You need to reset this approach that you need to advance or need to move. In fact you don't need to do anything once you get into 18". And both weapons are fine in this range. With Blight launcher being vastly better in 29"-18" range . Or even possibly from 35" with Noxious Blightbringer you can advance pretty damn fast.
Blight Launcher really shines because of that - you can target stuff you want to kill - not whatever is in rapid fire range. Unless you happy with killing wrap of conscripts with plasma. No you wan't to take down important targets that are not always going into your plasma range.
Really leave forum, theories and go play some games - you will be amazed how you can outplay plasma with your blight launcher. Zip 11" with some good advance roll throw 24" shoot - noone is safe from blight launchers.
This entire debate is wearing me off :
Let's compare Blight Launcher lover like me and random (noone in particular) plasma lover.
1. Plasma lover :
- Oh situation is perfect , my lord/prince is sitting like a duck nearby - so I don't kill my own units with OH. But if there is any - to hit ? Ah lets cross fingers there is noone. Fact that I still have chance to kill myself when shooting - but I pretend it's not true.
1. Blight Launcher Lover :
- Well I paid for my launchers , I welcome any buffs , but honestly ? I hit well, wound well - I will just shoot. And hey I don't need company of heroes to babysit me - fair enough.
2. Plasma Lover :
- All as Planned - I think I'm Tzeentch himself - everything I want to shoot just came into my 18" range - and doesn't have -1 to hit. I'm such mastermind. (really ...)
2. Blight Launcher Lover :
- Oh screw it ... nothing in range even at 24" - that must be some Tzeentch doing. But I don't give a gak - let's advance bois - we can still still shoot at full power afterwards.
3. Plasma Lover :
- What do you mean , you killed my Lord? ! How I'm supposed to deal any damage to get my points back invested in plasma ?
- Stand still mr Daemon Prince - noone let you leave those precious Marines - Like I care that you want to charge that vulnerable unit of inceptors that is nearby. LIKE I CARE - you are there to babysit - After all I just paid ~~150-160 points to have you reroll my 1's. And so what you think you are decent in CC ? Really S7 AP-2 7 attacks with D2 - you think that is reason to leave 3 dudes with plasma to explode ? Hah.
3. Blight Launcher lover :
- Well it was good to have you mr Archcontaminator and mr Daemon Prince - but we fully understand you have job to do. So feel free to actually pay for points invested in you. As we are good on our own.
lessthanjeff wrote: I'm still a fan of plasma myself on the plague marine squads. I don't overcharge against most targets, so the overheating isn't often an issue. Usually I want my troops taking out infantry units that are frequently camped out in cover (devastators, for example), so the extra ap is worth more than the multiple damage. When my heavy weapons do fail to kill some big, scary target, that's when I have a troops squad trying to help finish off the last few wounds and there again I like having the higher strength and better ap as well as the additional shots from running 3 guns in a squad instead of 2.
I think the biggest thing is not wanting to mix and match to me. I'd run the blightlaunchers so I could advance and shoot if I didn't have to run 1 less in the unit. Running 2 blightlaunchers and 1 plasma I'm afraid I would still just end up never advancing because I don't want to waste the plasma gun on the champ. I wish the champ could take the blight launcher as well.
But those weapons can really work well together. I can't see how you want to sit at 24" shooting 1 plasma projectile instead of getting in 18" as fast as possible.
You need to reset this approach that you need to advance or need to move. In fact you don't need to do anything once you get into 18". And both weapons are fine in this range. With Blight launcher being vastly better in 29"-18" range . Or even possibly from 35" with Noxious Blightbringer you can advance pretty damn fast.
Blight Launcher really shines because of that - you can target stuff you want to kill - not whatever is in rapid fire range. Unless you happy with killing wrap of conscripts with plasma. No you wan't to take down important targets that are not always going into your plasma range.
Really leave forum, theories and go play some games - you will be amazed how you can outplay plasma with your blight launcher. Zip 11" with some good advance roll throw 24" shoot - noone is safe from blight launchers.
Where are you getting me wanting to sit and shoot from 24" at? I'm referring to what the squad can do to a unit of devastators (or any standard meq) in cover. 2 plasma guns shooting at a meq in cover is 1.19 wounds (without overcharging), 2 blightlaunchers is 1.04 wounds. The plasma gun does more damage to most infantry targets as long as you're within 18" while the blightlauncher should exceed it for the greater distances. You don't need to overcharge it to get better numbers and I generally find the 23" threat range of plasma guns on plague marines is sufficient to hit the targets I want.
I was saying I don't want to mix and match plasma and blightlaunchers in a unit because then I still wouldn't want to advance and shoot the blightlaunchers (which is one of the advantages it has) because then I'd be wasting the other plasma gun I paid for. I'd rather just pay for 3 plasma guns in the unit and pick a target that doesn't require advancing because it's better damage output.
lessthanjeff wrote: I'm still a fan of plasma myself on the plague marine squads. I don't overcharge against most targets, so the overheating isn't often an issue. Usually I want my troops taking out infantry units that are frequently camped out in cover (devastators, for example), so the extra ap is worth more than the multiple damage. When my heavy weapons do fail to kill some big, scary target, that's when I have a troops squad trying to help finish off the last few wounds and there again I like having the higher strength and better ap as well as the additional shots from running 3 guns in a squad instead of 2.
I think the biggest thing is not wanting to mix and match to me. I'd run the blightlaunchers so I could advance and shoot if I didn't have to run 1 less in the unit. Running 2 blightlaunchers and 1 plasma I'm afraid I would still just end up never advancing because I don't want to waste the plasma gun on the champ. I wish the champ could take the blight launcher as well.
But those weapons can really work well together. I can't see how you want to sit at 24" shooting 1 plasma projectile instead of getting in 18" as fast as possible.
You need to reset this approach that you need to advance or need to move. In fact you don't need to do anything once you get into 18". And both weapons are fine in this range. With Blight launcher being vastly better in 29"-18" range . Or even possibly from 35" with Noxious Blightbringer you can advance pretty damn fast.
Blight Launcher really shines because of that - you can target stuff you want to kill - not whatever is in rapid fire range. Unless you happy with killing wrap of conscripts with plasma. No you wan't to take down important targets that are not always going into your plasma range.
Really leave forum, theories and go play some games - you will be amazed how you can outplay plasma with your blight launcher. Zip 11" with some good advance roll throw 24" shoot - noone is safe from blight launchers.
Where are you getting me wanting to sit and shoot from 24" at? I'm referring to what the squad can do to a unit of devastators (or any standard meq) in cover. 2 plasma guns shooting at a meq in cover is 1.19 wounds (without overcharging), 2 blightlaunchers is 1.04 wounds. The plasma gun does more damage to most infantry targets as long as you're within 18" while the blightlauncher should exceed it for the greater distances. You don't need to overcharge it to get better numbers and I generally find the 23" threat range of plasma guns on plague marines is sufficient to hit the targets I want.
I was saying I don't want to mix and match plasma and blightlaunchers in a unit because then I still wouldn't want to advance and shoot the blightlaunchers (which is one of the advantages it has) because then I'd be wasting the other plasma gun I paid for. I'd rather just pay for 3 plasma guns in the unit and pick a target that doesn't require advancing because it's better damage output.
This is exactly what your opponent wants you to do - shoot whatever he wants to be shoot down. Not what you want to shoot. And GL hiding from those launchers.
Honestly without overcharge plasma is not impressive at all and stand no chance to take down terminator / 2 wound elite infantry at all.
Idk but I just feel like being able to shoot what I want is really powerful, not whatever gets close. It may be just me, but I prefer reliable and flexible units.
You don't know what you gonna face in tournament, who you gonna play and what to expect often - so universal badass weapons are always first pick.
It's true that -1 to hit is rather prevalent in the game. Thankfully, prescience is a thing. So the -1 to hit is cancelled out by the +1 to hit, meaning there's no additional risk for overheating.
Having a deep striking lord nearby mitigates any mobility issues. Yes it's expensive, but it's guaranteed that you can go anywhere with only a 1/36 chance of overheat, even if you're at -1 to hit.
Also I'm not sure what all this talk of range is. Terminators have deep strike. That means they can go wherever you need them to. It's true that your opponent can sometimes screen them out of double tap range, but you can also wait to deep strike in. And warptime helps a lot with making sure you get past a screen into double tap range. If you're deep striking into a place where you don't have anything in a 29" threat range (you know, after moving on the second turn), then you're deep striking very wrong.
How are people killing your character? You can literally put him in the middle of your terminator squad. If he's not the last model to die, you're doing something very wrong.
Having a daemon prince around for plasma re-rolls is indeed an awful idea. Just use a generic lord.
To be clear, in no way am I saying that blightlord terminators are bad. Their launchers are good. Very good, even. Not being the best option doesn't mean they're bad.
And for what's it's worth, I do think that plasma terminators are a little overpriced for what they bring too. But they're still pretty good.
TDLR if you want a squad of 5-10 terminators that can stand on their own pretty well, use blightlords.
If you want to go all in and create a mini deathstar, grab 10 MoS terminators and support them. They'll kill everything in range, but they'll also eat up a ton of your army points.
I think you might be misunderstanding something important here, the plasma guns outdamage the blightlaunchers without overcharging against most targets.
Against 2 wound targets like terminators, 2 plasma guns can overcharge and kill 1.48 terminators while 2 blight launchers only average killing a terminator 59% of the time (0.89 wounds inflicted but 1/3 of the damage results don't kill the terminator) making the plasma guns about 3 times as lethal than the blightlauncher without even taking into account having 3 of them vs only 2 blightlaunchers. Yes it is more risky, but if you're in a situation where you really need to kill those terminators inflicting 3 times as many casualties may be worth it with or without a nearby rerolling character.
To me, the plasma gun advantage is about having the output choice against different targets since 23" is enough range for me to not feel like I have to go after less than ideal targets. Getting to take 3 of the weapon instead of 2 when they do more damage even on a 1 to 1 comparison makes it an easier choice for me.
Bjt0012 wrote: Any thoughts on the FW Greater Blight Drone?
Quick aside, my first question is how do they (and other fw models for that matter) fit into detachments? Do I need to take a separate detachment or do they fit into my Death Guard ones. I've tried to figure it out and still don't know. Probably missing something obvious somewhere...
If they do in fact fit in, they seem like an interesting option to me. You get +1 bs, 2 extra wounds, carrion haunter, extra weapon and regeneration but lose out on plague weapons and cost a little more. Guessing they might not benefit from other auras as well and cost a little more than the new drones. Just wondering if anyone had given them a go yet.
The FAQ answers that question:
"You can only choose for a unit to be from the Death Guard Legion if it has the Nurgle keyword, or if it has the <Mark of Chaos> keyword and you choose to replace that with Nurgle. You cannot choose for a Hellforged Rapier Battery, a Chaos Hellwright or
a Chaos Hellwright on Dark Abeyant to be from the Death Guard."
So the:
Blight Drone
Decimator
Plague Hulk of Nurgle
Contemptor Dread
Land Raider Proteus
Land Raider Achilles
Scorpius
Sicaran
Predator
Spartan
Deredeo
Leviathan
Dreadclaw
Kharybdis
Etc can all be in a death guard detachment.
Not really a whole lot of benefit to that other than not needing to run a CSM Detachment, having the ability to use DG strategems, and (possibly) having deredeos and leviathans use the DG move and fire heavy weapons without penalty chapter tactic. That should be FAQ'd honestly.
Thank you! Totally forgot about the FAQ. Looked everywhere but there.
lessthanjeff wrote: I think you might be misunderstanding something important here, the plasma guns outdamage the blightlaunchers without overcharging against most targets.
Against 2 wound targets like terminators, 2 plasma guns can overcharge and kill 1.48 terminators while 2 blight launchers only average killing a terminator 59% of the time (0.89 wounds inflicted but 1/3 of the damage results don't kill the terminator) making the plasma guns about 3 times as lethal than the blightlauncher without even taking into account having 3 of them vs only 2 blightlaunchers. Yes it is more risky, but if you're in a situation where you really need to kill those terminators inflicting 3 times as many casualties may be worth it with or without a nearby rerolling character.
To me, the plasma gun advantage is about having the output choice against different targets since 23" is enough range for me to not feel like I have to go after less than ideal targets. Getting to take 3 of the weapon instead of 2 when they do more damage even on a 1 to 1 comparison makes it an easier choice for me.
btw I hope this Luke dude ain't talking to me as I ignored him long time ago ... would be pita for him to waste time posts addressed to me .
Yeah I see what you said there but still there many problems with this math - while it's indeed correct dear sir - we got another layers of problems. Were they in your 18" range in first place ? Didn't you kill yourself when doing so ? Did they have some sort to hit modifiers like alpha legion/miasma etc ?
Because I can see situations where plasma may not be able to shoot termies at all.
Let me show you such situation - a unit of terminators dropped your poor Burst Crawler and they are 30" away from your Marine squad ? Why so far away ? They are Objective secured and need to take well those damn objectives . But suddenly you realise your plasma cannot support your tank back there.
Blight Launcher squad easily advances (even if they roll 1 !) and shoot said terminators with good chance to do some damage there.
Yet another situation where output of blight launcher again is just better - start of game. Plasmas try to get in range - and Blight Launchers can start right of the bat advance and rain down some smelly grenades there.
You can't ignore range issues and ability to shoot vs NOT shoot at all.
DG army is slow as hell - let's get our facts straight - be able to actually support your army with such gakky mobility SHOULD NOT be underestimated at all. Especially that we need it pretty badly.
3 times damage mutliplied by 0 is 0 damage .
Also who said i cannot have this plasma along with my 2 launchers as addition. So its not 2 vs 3 weapons aswell.
Yeah, longer range is the advantage I like for the blight launchers.
Funnily enough, if we're comparing 3 plasma guns to 2 blight launchers against meq, then plasma outdamages significantly from the 1-23" range, they are actually the same from 23-29 inches, and then blight launchers will win out from the 29-35 range. That gives the plasma gun loadout a bigger advantage across more range bands, so to me that's what more important and it's where my preference comes from. It seems logical to me that having more damage for 23" is better than having more damage for 6" of range but some armies may have different needs and need more ways to hit those distant targets. I plan on using the faster and longer range drones/artillery for those targets.
Don't forget also that the plasma guns are significantly better against vehicles (like razorbacks) and other tough targets too though because of the higher strength and ap. Even without overcharging, 3 plasma guns in the 1-23 range averages 1.67 wounds while the blight launchers average 1.38. Obviously, overcharging ups the damage significantly to 4.44 wounds at the greater cost if you really need something dead.
lessthanjeff wrote: Yeah, longer range is the advantage I like for the blight launchers.
Funnily enough, if we're comparing 3 plasma guns to 2 blight launchers against meq, then plasma outdamages significantly from the 1-23" range, they are actually the same from 23-29 inches, and then blight launchers will win out from the 29-35 range. That gives the plasma gun loadout a bigger advantage across more range bands, so to me that's what more important and it's where my preference comes from. It seems logical to me that having more damage for 23" is better than having more damage for 6" of range but some armies may have different needs and need more ways to hit those distant targets. I plan on using the faster and longer range drones/artillery for those targets.
Don't forget also that the plasma guns are significantly better against vehicles (like razorbacks) and other tough targets too though because of the higher strength and ap. Even without overcharging, 3 plasma guns in the 1-23 range averages 1.67 wounds while the blight launchers average 1.38. Obviously, overcharging ups the damage significantly to 4.44 wounds at the greater cost if you really need something dead.
Haha I accept your all arguments - and they are all valid.
But in my army I cannot afford lord to accompany Marines - he goes where is needed - i mean not lord but Prince - to kick some ass . And he is pretty good at it.
Maybe entire differences between our perception of problem comes to this point.
You prefer heavy firepower even if you have to make sacrifices to get it - not saying it's bad approach.
And I prefer reliable and flexible forces . That can zip around claim what i need to be claimed and still punch people around - even when advancing.
I don't trust plasma - not because it explodes , but because it explodes violently at times when any to hit modifier appears.
Different tactics i assume. Both can work.
So lets just keep it that way.
Maybe I also don't value anti tank aspect of plasma because I plan to have dedicated units to deal with this issue - at least 2 PBCs with Enthropy cannons and mortars should do the job pretty well along with other heavy hitting units in CC.
Generally to understand what is in my mind (hahaha) - i will try to picture my forces - Fast , durable , flexible. Not necessarily super hard punching . Who knows - in world of alpha strike meta - i may be making mistake. But i will bank on suriving the storm.
In fact if DG cannot survive storm then who can ?
As fun fact - recent MWG video features Luka playing Plasma Blightlords with Plasma Lord dropping - not only they did NOTHING at all and it was like ~~450 points there. But also Lord killed himself on first shoot - even though he rerolled, but into another 1 lol.
While chance for this may not seem to be high. But go on and tell me it doesn't happen. Each shoot is 3% to kill yourself if you OH EVEN with reroll. And that is before modifiers.
After that violent explosion nearby Blightlords lost confidence in thier shooting and relied on not overheated shoots and failed to kill razorback even with charge after.
Yeah 450 points to ... kill yourself and razorback lived.
If such displays how plasma can backfire are not enough to love blight launchers - then i dont know what can .
The only plasma i like hands down is prescience infused plasma shooting.
I've been looking at 2 or 3 Plague Burst Crawlers with Mortar and Entropy Canon's.
Supported by a dirt cheap Lord with Arch Contaminator and Fulgaris' Helm.
This allows refills of 1s to hit and rerolls to wounds with the main mortars.
I'll have to catch that game on MWG later as I haven't seen it yet. I think many people make the mistake of overcharging too often when it's rarely needed and it sounds like that's what this player did too.
Most loadouts don't have a strictly better or worse in all possible setups of the game, so I generally try to avoid inserting too much opinion into comparisons. I just wanted people to see the numbers in case they weren't as familiar with the math behind the comparisons so they could make the better choice based on what they need more of in their army. Remember, it's not that it's better damage at greater risk for plasma vs blightlauncher, even without overcharging the plasma guns are generally better against most targets. It's a question of range needs and which characters are included to support what.
I'm actually partial to trying a unit all throwing their grenades comboed with veterans of the long war for 5+ mortal wounds too. A 10 man unit averages 7.8 mortal wounds on top of the 2 damage str 4 attacks of the grenades themselves. That means against a primaris squad, for example, you'll have 7.8 mortal wounds and an additional 3.9 dead from grenade damage.
dan2026 wrote: What are people thinking for effective anti tank?
I've been looking at 2 or 3 Plague Burst Crawlers with Mortar and Entropy Canon's.
Supported by a dirt cheap Lord with Arch Contaminator and Fulgaris' Helm.
This allows refills of 1s to hit and rerolls to wounds with the main mortars.
I welcome any suggestions though.
Seems everyone at least agrees there - PBCs are there to act as high S multi damage weapons in our arsenal. They are dirty cheap / very resiliient and shooty enough.
Yeah I think you got numbers right 2-3 should do.
But about Archcontaminator - if you do this then neither Morty nor Typhus can use his warlord trait. That means if you include Mortarion he no longer provides this aura. But then again you may not field morty at all.
Overall mortar even against T8 targets has better chance to wound than Lascannon without buffs - if there is arch contaminator dude. Against T7 it's always better or equal in terms of wounding - equal only if lascannon also have someone to reroll all wounds not just 1's.
I'm super excited for this tank. We can basically hammer anything with indirect fire.
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lessthanjeff wrote: I'll have to catch that game on MWG later as I haven't seen it yet. I think many people make the mistake of overcharging too often when it's rarely needed and it sounds like that's what this player did too.
Most loadouts don't have a strictly better or worse in all possible setups of the game, so I generally try to avoid inserting too much opinion into comparisons. I just wanted people to see the numbers in case they weren't as familiar with the math behind the comparisons so they could make the better choice based on what they need more of in their army. Remember, it's not that it's better damage at greater risk for plasma vs blightlauncher, even without overcharging the plasma guns are generally better against most targets. It's a question of range needs and which characters are included to support what.
I'm actually partial to trying a unit all throwing their grenades comboed with veterans of the long war for 5+ mortal wounds too. A 10 man unit averages 7.8 mortal wounds on top of the 2 damage str 4 attacks of the grenades themselves. That means against a primaris squad, for example, you'll have 7.8 mortal wounds and an additional 3.9 dead from grenade damage.
Grenade tactic - while I like it - has some problems. first of all you need squad of marines - preferably CC - already not something i will field. 2nd you need biologus dude and ride for them all. Well after that - yeah they can wreck not only primaris but anything with happy grenades .
Why CC Marines ? Well if you field plasma or blight launcher marines doesn't matter but if they are shooty you don't want them to get THAT close. CC marines on the other hand can throw those grenades and deal tons of damage - and after that charge to hammer anything that could survive shooting phase in first place.
What I start to love about DG is that we got all myriads of tactics that seem to be actually working at least in theory. And a lot of tools to accomplish them .
What you guys think about Deathshroud - I try to get them into army somehow. But thier non existent shooting makes them one trick pony that likes to fail that one trick aka charge . Doesn't sound to me like a deal. Land Raider ... VERY expensive and I want PBCs for those points.
The only doable solution is warp time from auxillary/another chaos detachment. And sounds lame to me as i want pure DG army ;/.
btw I hope this Luke dude ain't talking to me as I ignored him long time ago ... would be pita for him to waste time posts addressed to me
Flattered that you're still thinking about me. Glad that we can have a civil discourse even through your ignore settings.
Tbh it doesn't matter to me if you read what I write or not. Clearly you decided a long time ago not to listen. I'm here for the tactics - both to learn and to help others. You do you boo boo
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dan2026 wrote: What are people thinking for effective anti tank?
I've been looking at 2 or 3 Plague Burst Crawlers with Mortar and Entropy Canon's.
Supported by a dirt cheap Lord with Arch Contaminator and Fulgaris' Helm.
This allows refills of 1s to hit and rerolls to wounds with the main mortars.
I welcome any suggestions though.
That pretty much sounds like what I was thinking. Those plague burst crawlers are amazing. And the model...
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lessthanjeff wrote: Yeah, longer range is the advantage I like for the blight launchers.
Funnily enough, if we're comparing 3 plasma guns to 2 blight launchers against meq, then plasma outdamages significantly from the 1-23" range, they are actually the same from 23-29 inches, and then blight launchers will win out from the 29-35 range. That gives the plasma gun loadout a bigger advantage across more range bands, so to me that's what more important and it's where my preference comes from. It seems logical to me that having more damage for 23" is better than having more damage for 6" of range but some armies may have different needs and need more ways to hit those distant targets. I plan on using the faster and longer range drones/artillery for those targets.
Best and most concise summation of why plasma > blight launchers I've read to date. Give this man an exalt
Yeah, I'm thinking 9 man unit in a rhino probably with no upgrades to chase down targets that have good invuls, multiple wounds, or high toughness. If the opponent doesn't have an ideal target, then they canl jet around and hold objectives since they're still a very durable, obsec unit. Even against something like a knight they average around 10 wounds just from the grenades.
I think the deathshroud will be too expensive and slow to justify. I only see them being used when a list absolutely requires mortarian surviving an opening barrage for when you get second turn in the same way that some people would take void shield generators to prevent a harsh alpha strike.
Deathshroud are fluffy and really cool, but not competitive IMO. Way too expensive per wound. Just take other things your opponent HAS to kill and he'll worry about morty less.
In my Tyranid example, my opponent is less likely to shoot at a Swarmlord if a squad of Genestealers is barreling down on them
lessthanjeff wrote: Yeah, I'm thinking 9 man unit in a rhino probably with no upgrades to chase down targets that have good invuls, multiple wounds, or high toughness. If the opponent doesn't have an ideal target, then they canl jet around and hold objectives since they're still a very durable, obsec unit. Even against something like a knight they average around 10 wounds just from the grenades.
I think the deathshroud will be too expensive and slow to justify. I only see them being used when a list absolutely requires mortarian surviving an opening barrage for when you get second turn in the same way that some people would take void shield generators to prevent a harsh alpha strike.
Yeah actually nice approach - so you would leave them without much extra eq to not get overboard with points. I wasn't thinking that way. Thanks for idea.
Normally such marines would be waste but with those grenades - it may be correct approach to just get numbers.
But still I would slap 2 flails on this unit - only 10p each and that thing is godlike.
I think Deathshroud probably need three wounds to get them where they need to be.
I think it might happen as well. Plague Drones and Beasts just gained a wound after all.
I sure hope so. GW really screwed up with their current stats. They have 2 wounds and cost more than 4-wound characters. They cost more points per wound than even Morty. IMO increase their points cost to 80 per model but with 3 wounds.
Virules wrote: I sure hope so. GW really screwed up with their current stats. They have 2 wounds and cost more than 4-wound characters. They cost more points per wound than even Morty. IMO increase their points cost to 80 per model but with 3 wounds.
exactly i did callculations - i prefer if morty take damage instead of them. Who is bodyguard again ?
Aw shucks, thanks Luke. I've been on these forums a long time and have no idea what the exalts do or mean but I appreciate it all the same.
Mario, the greatest thing about the grenade unit is it's a nice compliment to the other weapons plague marines field that all have pretty solid ap values. I'm personally looking at two units of marines with 3 plasma guns each to target units that don't have strong invuls and one grenade unit to get through the targets that do.
Virules wrote: I sure hope so. GW really screwed up with their current stats. They have 2 wounds and cost more than 4-wound characters. They cost more points per wound than even Morty. IMO increase their points cost to 80 per model but with 3 wounds.
If people make enough noise about it. Maybe it might make it into the first faq.
Virules wrote: I sure hope so. GW really screwed up with their current stats. They have 2 wounds and cost more than 4-wound characters. They cost more points per wound than even Morty. IMO increase their points cost to 80 per model but with 3 wounds.
If people make enough noise about it. Maybe it might make it into the first faq.
+
Or don't but them ... i want models ... but i think they are not worth it , for each deathshroud i have foul blightspawn or biologus and for less tallyman... i think they should be at custodes price values. Custodes have WS2+ , they are faster and got 3 wounds.
And yeah 3+ invu shields ...
Though sadly many people won't resist and just take them anyway - for looks alone. Which i cannot blame them at all hahaha. But i will protest with my wallet- i have crapton of miniatures that still need painting - so i can wait with those.
Jeff I couldn't tell you what they do either haha. But it's good to hear a voice of reason on the internet. Can never have enough of those.
So for people who aren't using poxwalkers, and are trying to go pure DG (I think I might do this for a more fun second army list, maybe with some nurgle Daemons), how are you incorporating anti horde weaponry? Without using CSM for that slaanesh double fire goodness, it feels like such an elite army could have some issues. Maybe just more bloat drones?
Question guys.
The codex says I can take a Flail on one of the Blightlord Terminators. Does this include the champion?
Id argue yes because he is a blightlord terminator (datasheet name) and no because he's actually called a Blightlord Champion and wargear options for champions are usually mentioned separately.
Mayk0l wrote: Question guys.
The codex says I can take a Flail on one of the Blightlord Terminators. Does this include the champion?
Id argue yes because he is a blightlord terminator (datasheet name) and no because he's actually called a Blightlord Champion and wargear options for champions are usually mentioned separately.
Thanks!
It's the latter. As you say, Blightlord Terminators and Blightlord Champions are specifically distinct and do not have the same wargear options.
Mayk0l wrote: Question guys.
The codex says I can take a Flail on one of the Blightlord Terminators. Does this include the champion?
Id argue yes because he is a blightlord terminator (datasheet name) and no because he's actually called a Blightlord Champion and wargear options for champions are usually mentioned separately.
Thanks!
sadly no - it's done for balance reasons.
Without even DTFE single termie with flail can take down 12 conscripts in one swing. xd
Mayk0l wrote: Question guys.
The codex says I can take a Flail on one of the Blightlord Terminators. Does this include the champion?
Id argue yes because he is a blightlord terminator (datasheet name) and no because he's actually called a Blightlord Champion and wargear options for champions are usually mentioned separately.
Thanks!
Ouch, you may have a point there and have ruined my life haha! I hope we can take it on the champion.
I really love all of this new Nurgle stuff! I am very happy how they have really made the DG interesting. The only things I am frustrated about so far is a few things:
0) Not enough ranged plague weapons for PMs. I wish they had plague bolter rounds or something.
1) Normal PM sergeants can't Blight launchers
2) Death Shroud terminators cost WAY to much
3) The lords and sorcerers don't get disgustingly resilient
4) None of those new characters are in the HQs slot and they have over crowded our elite choices
5) I can't take the daemons without making my units no longer death guard battle forged
6) Pox walkers cost 6 points (why)
7) Cultists cost 4 points and have no additional abilites over guardsmen which are the same cost and better all around (makes me realize guardsmen need a price bump)
8) No warptime, which I think is required to ensure Mortarian makes it to the other side alive (i get why it isn't an option)
9) None of the nurgle psychic powers heal units or return a model.
10) They made every aura a diffrent size, why not just make them all 7"? None are that game breaking not to be that size
11) Mortarian, I love him but he just doesn't seem to fit with the creeping firepower DG theme. I am not sure how to fix this. I wish he had been slower and tougher designed to buff a wave of disease moving towards the enemy. (Maybe T8, 4+ DR, 7" movement)
Mayk0l wrote: Question guys.
The codex says I can take a Flail on one of the Blightlord Terminators. Does this include the champion?
Id argue yes because he is a blightlord terminator (datasheet name) and no because he's actually called a Blightlord Champion and wargear options for champions are usually mentioned separately.
Thanks!
Ouch, you may have a point there and have ruined my life haha! I hope we can take it on the champion.
I really love all of this new Nurgle stuff! I am very happy how they have really made the DG interesting. The only things I am frustrated about so far is a few things:
0) Not enough ranged plague weapons for PMs. I wish they had plague bolter rounds or something.
1) Normal PM sergeants can't Blight launchers
2) Death Shroud terminators cost WAY to much
3) The lords and sorcerers don't get disgustingly resilient
4) None of those new characters are in the HQs slot and they have over crowded our elite choices
5) I can't take the daemons without making my units no longer death guard battle forged
6) Pox walkers cost 6 points (why)
7) Cultists cost 4 points and have no additional abilites over guardsmen which are the same cost and better all around (makes me realize guardsmen need a price bump)
8) No warptime, which I think is required to ensure Mortarian makes it to the other side alive (i get why it isn't an option)
9) None of the nurgle psychic powers heal units or return a model.
10) They made every aura a diffrent size, why not just make them all 7"? None are that game breaking not to be that size
11) Mortarian, I love him but he just doesn't seem to fit with the creeping firepower DG theme. I am not sure how to fix this. I wish he had been slower and tougher designed to buff a wave of disease moving towards the enemy. (Maybe T8, 4+ DR, 7" movement)
+1 on almost everything, Especially Deathshroud and Morty .I would even further reduce Movement to 10" to get this T8 , so he doesnt need babysitting or mandatory miasma.
On your Mortarion point. I've been thinking about it as I'm painting him up. I think he works best surrounded by an aggressive force: lots of fast drones, haulers, teleporting blightlords (maybe deathshroud but I'm not convinced) and maybe troops in Rhinos). Maybe design the army with that in mind.
That way the army keeps up and you're quite in his face.
I painted up 60 poxwalkers so I'm going for a two styles kind of army: the above and 60 poxies with Typhus and a Blightbringer
Mayk0l wrote: Broxus, our flail dreams are shatttered :(
On your Mortarion point. I've been thinking about it as I'm painting him up. I think he works best surrounded by an aggressive force: lots of fast drones, haulers, teleporting blightlords (maybe deathshroud but I'm not convinced) and maybe troops in Rhinos). Maybe design the army with that in mind.
That way the army keeps up and you're quite in his face.
I painted up 60 poxwalkers so I'm going for a two styles kind of army: the above and 60 poxies with Typhus and a Blightbringer
But then again Morty got no synergy with Pox, too slow to keep up with him. Heck they are even rare cookie who dont benefit from his archcontaminator.
Yeah you're right but I'm kind of forced into that position for having painted all those poxwalkers before Mortarion dropped Guess they'll screen some stuff, move up the board, be annoying and grab objectives.
I guess I wasn't clear on that poxes aren't efficient but it's what I'm doing because I have them
How about a bunch of daemon princes, spread around chaos marines, death guard and daemons? They can keep up and help with usefull spells, like healing, +1 to wound and double damage on 7+, +1 to wound and mortal wound on 7+ *if you do both you get a 7+ 1/3th of the time...), extra attack and str all on mort if he really needs it herald of nurgle and epidemius could be nice too (maybe leave points to summon them or backfield daemons depending on what you need more)
If mort falls the daemon princes would still like the boosts and could probably take down whatever kills them efficiently in one or two turns.
Any other synergies people might suggest? The blight drones might work nicely too if you get the herald of nurgle anyways, since it boosts their shooting attack too.
ThePauliPrinciple wrote: How about a bunch of daemon princes, spread around chaos marines, death guard and daemons? They can keep up and help with usefull spells, like healing, +1 to wound and double damage on 7+, +1 to wound and mortal wound on 7+ *if you do both you get a 7+ 1/3th of the time...), extra attack and str all on mort if he really needs it herald of nurgle and epidemius could be nice too (maybe leave points to summon them or backfield daemons depending on what you need more)
If mort falls the daemon princes would still like the boosts and could probably take down whatever kills them efficiently in one or two turns.
Any other synergies people might suggest? The blight drones might work nicely too if you get the herald of nurgle anyways, since it boosts their shooting attack too.
Those you mentioned were already mentioned , I think we got crapton possible combos - not only that one or blight grenade combo.
Morty with all Drones seems like super powerful spearehead.
Drones love him as much as those cute engines can. Spitters suddenly have much time easier wounding targets with -1T and rerolling all wounds not just 1's - they can tear apart even vehicles with goddamn flamers. Same goes for other drone variants.
Additiona gain is that your opponent may want to take down drones instead of Morty if miasma is on Mortarion. So in fact Drones are better bodyguards than Deathshroud per point invested .
Like sending Morty without drones in my eyes is blasphemy and crime against Nurgle .
Mayk0l wrote: Broxus, our flail dreams are shatttered :(
On your Mortarion point. I've been thinking about it as I'm painting him up. I think he works best surrounded by an aggressive force: lots of fast drones, haulers, teleporting blightlords (maybe deathshroud but I'm not convinced) and maybe troops in Rhinos). Maybe design the army with that in mind.
That way the army keeps up and you're quite in his face.
I painted up 60 poxwalkers so I'm going for a two styles kind of army: the above and 60 poxies with Typhus and a Blightbringer
So this really makes my point. The Death Guard are not suppose to be a fast aggressive force. This is why they can't take raptors and bikes (or GW's explanation of why they can't). Mortarian, their primarch does the exact opposite of the thing the DG are designed to do. They are not suppose to be an up in your face army, but instead a creeping death army. He just doesn't fit this theme at all... RIght now the Death Guard seem to be a bi-polar army.
Most annoying is that Mortarian is fast but not fast enough to lead the assault across the table. He is also not survivable enough to withstand the gunlines he would be charging. This can be mitigated by taking non-DG units that can cast warptime, which breaks my immersion. Without it he is simply to slow and not survivable enough to make it across the board. I really wish had given him the 4+ DR save.
Anyone planning to keep some summoning points and planning to bring some daemons support?
The awesome stratagem providing an extra D6 for summoning gives access to:
- Great Unclean One (76% chance to make it)
- Daemon Prince (84%)
- 20 plaguebearers (97%)
- 3 drones (99%)
and anything at PL 6 or less is a guaranteed summon.
That got me excited but I'm not sure how to pull anything significant out of it.
The summoning power means I can't move the character before the summon, and you get a "reach" of 12".
so considering that most Nurgle daemons are about assault, and you are playing with a smaller force until the summoning takes place what's the best way to get those daemons on the board FAST?
so far I thought of:
Turn1: don't waste time, summon in your first phase, from the deployment zone 20 plaguebearers 12" forward. It's essentially a very fast turn1 advance at the cost of letting a character behind.
Turn2: "risk" the summoning+charge roll (take instruments for that +1") and get a fast character as far forward in the first turn. Unfortunately all our characters are either slow, OR absolute beasts in assault. For the slow ones, this tactic is unlikely to have a big impact on camping army (tau, shooty marines). For the fast ones (typhus, lord of contagion, mortarion, Daemon Prince with wings), missing out on the movement in turn2 can be a huge drawback "just" to get daemons on the board.
Anyone planning to keep some summoning points and planning to bring some daemons support?
The awesome stratagem providing an extra D6 for summoning gives access to:
- Great Unclean One (76% chance to make it)
- Daemon Prince (84%)
- 20 plaguebearers (97%)
- 3 drones (99%)
and anything at PL 6 or less is a guaranteed summon.
That got me excited but I'm not sure how to pull anything significant out of it.
The summoning power means I can't move the character before the summon, and you get a "reach" of 12".
so considering that most Nurgle daemons are about assault, and you are playing with a smaller force until the summoning takes place what's the best way to get those daemons on the board FAST?
so far I thought of:
Turn1: don't waste time, summon in your first phase, from the deployment zone 20 plaguebearers 12" forward. It's essentially a very fast turn1 advance at the cost of letting a character behind.
Turn2: "risk" the summoning+charge roll (take instruments for that +1") and get a fast character as far forward in the first turn. Unfortunately all our characters are either slow, OR absolute beasts in assault. For the slow ones, this tactic is unlikely to have a big impact on camping army (tau, shooty marines). For the fast ones (typhus, lord of contagion, mortarion, Daemon Prince with wings), missing out on the movement in turn2 can be a huge drawback "just" to get daemons on the board.
So any ideas?
I think summoning herald near Morty is way to go honestly. And of course herald will spam his D3 wounds heal. He will also buff Morty S and other daemonic entities like Drones/Haulers/Princes.
As you said he is guaranteed so I would actually go for him.
That D3 wounds heal sounds like not much but it's evey turn.
Mortarion is fine guys. He works exceedingly well with poxwalkers. Obviously you still need typhus (and probably want Necrosius/the new surgeon), but Mortarion kills hordes. And everything else. If you're worried about him not being fast enough, just warptime him.
Also just so we're clear, Morty doesn't get the D3 wound heal. Only nurgle Daemons. Not sure if that was what Mario was insinuating but wanted to clarify.
If you don't want to take him because you want your death guard to be slower, that's fine. But he both synergizes well with the army and is the best thing in the death guard book.
luke1705 wrote: Mortarion is fine guys. He works exceedingly well with poxwalkers. Obviously you still need typhus (and probably want Necrosius/the new surgeon), but Mortarion kills hordes. And everything else. If you're worried about him not being fast enough, just warptime him.
Also just so we're clear, Morty doesn't get the D3 wound heal. Only nurgle Daemons. Not sure if that was what Mario was insinuating but wanted to clarify.
If you don't want to take him because you want your death guard to be slower, that's fine. But he both synergizes well with the army and is the best thing in the death guard book.
Mortarion IS a Nurgle Daemon. It's the same as any daemon prince. Anything that affects any nurgle daemon also affects him, good or bad.
For the record, you can't warptime Mortarion without allying in a CSM sorcerer since DG sorcerers all get the Contagion discipline, at which point you're not talking Death Guard Tactica anymore.
Arachnofiend wrote: For the record, you can't warptime Mortarion without allying in a CSM sorcerer since DG sorcerers all get the Contagion discipline, at which point you're not talking Death Guard Tactica anymore.
I hear this sentiment a lot and it baffles me. Yes that isn't pure death guard. But neither is using fleshy abundance.
And, for what it's worth, it's not like you can just say "go talk about that in the CSM tactica" because someone over there could just as easily say "Mortarion belongs only in the DG tactica thread"
Allies are a thing. You can use them or not, but pretending that allies don't belong in a tactics thread is silly. Everyone should know their options.
Arachnofiend wrote: For the record, you can't warptime Mortarion without allying in a CSM sorcerer since DG sorcerers all get the Contagion discipline, at which point you're not talking Death Guard Tactica anymore.
I don't agree with this logic. You can have a DG detachment and a separate chaos detachment. As far as tactics go, having both in the same list seems to be the best option. Everyone seems to operate under the belief they aren't allowed to run detachments of non-DG units, but it is incorrect. I understand you may choose not to, but there are plenty of people wanting to discuss tactics regarding multiple detachment lists that include a DG detachment.
Hey everyone, if I took a Sorcerer on Palanquin of Nurgle (thanks to index faq, he get's DG keyword) would he get access to Dark Hereticus or Contagion? That might be a decent way of getting warp time access with a DG psyker.
Personally I would say that he must take Contagion like the other DG Sorcerers' in the codex, but according to the index rules, you take the datasheet from the index, which in this case would be Dark Hereticus.
NurglesR0T wrote: Hey everyone, if I took a Sorcerer on Palanquin of Nurgle (thanks to index faq, he get's DG keyword) would he get access to Dark Hereticus or Contagion? That might be a decent way of getting warp time access with a DG psyker.
Personally I would say that he must take Contagion like the other DG Sorcerers' in the codex, but according to the index rules, you take the datasheet from the index, which in this case would be Dark Hereticus.
what's everyone's thoughts on that?
Currently the RAW is that the sorcerer gets the hereticus discipline, but I'd be shocked if that loophole doesn't get filled in an FAQ.
You can just use a Death Guard HQ who doesn't care about the chapter tactic (e.g. Daemon Prince) and take him together with Daemons in a 'Nurgle' detachment.
Did anyone else notice that the Foul Blightspawn and the Tallyman have no melee profiles? I am particularly curious why the guy that gives everyone around him reroll hits doesn't have any melee weapon at all. Not even a plague knife or plague sword.
Is this just an oversight?
Anyone else think that the best buffing leader warlord so far is a Daemon Prince, with a Fugaris' Helm, and a Arch-Contaminator warlord trait? This gives him about a 20" (including his base) bubble that allows rerolls of 1's to hit AND reroll all failed wound rolls with plague weapons. This would be a nasty gun line buffer. I just wish we had more plague guns!!!
Finally, anyone else think it is odd that the only melee weapons the plague marine champion can get is a powerfist or a plague sword (which does virtually nothing)? I am surprised that the axe or Bubotic axe. He is literally the only guy who can't in the unit. Am I reading that wrong?
Does the Fugaris Helm add to the range of the Warlord traits living plague and arch contaminator? I'm unsure as it adds to the range of any auras on a models datasheet.
broxus wrote: Anyone else think that the best buffing leader warlord so far is a Daemon Prince, with a Fugaris' Helm, and a Arch-Contaminator warlord trait? This gives him about a 20" (including his base) bubble that allows rerolls of 1's to hit AND reroll all failed wound rolls with plague weapons. This would be a nasty gun line buffer. I just wish we had more plague guns!!!
A solid option, but not necessarily the best. Naturally, you'd have to keep this guy a way back from enemy models as he's still 3+ 8 wounds - make sure you take that plate and make him 2+... but a DP is unlikely to pay his points back unless he fights in melee... Unless the army is built mostly around advancing units, I'd rather take a cheapest vanila lord as a warlord to buff gunlines in the back...
Nightlord1987 wrote: Couple things, cultists also benefit from the Inexorable Advance, so take autoguns.
Daemons can be taken in their own detachment just fine, or with an HQ and units that don't care about shooting
And I'm pretty sure you can summon while in CC, so that's a movement phase you wouldn't be wasting.
You nailed it sir , culitsts have same or more synergy than pox for less points xd. They at least benefit from Legion trait. And they you are saving 20 points per unit of 10 when you just want to pay tax.
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Ix_Tab wrote: Does the Fugaris Helm add to the range of the Warlord traits living plague and arch contaminator? I'm unsure as it adds to the range of any auras on a models datasheet.
For 100% it buffs all Auras. So example Daemon Prince 1's reroll aura goes to 9" and Archcontaminator if you take it goes to 10"
Able to throw 18 to-hit dice on reroll-able 2s and reroll-able 2s to wound.
Take an ideal fight phase scenario against conscripts and a warhound titan:
- Morty not degraded yet.
- Morty next to deathshroud and Herald of Nurgle.
- Morty with prescience and that 7+ mortal wound psychic power.
- Morty with Vets of the Long War. (for a +2 to wound roll)
21 dice with ~21 hits and 7 "Death to false emperor" for another 21 dice to roll. ~41 hits. and then ~40 wounds and 13 mortal wounds.
If against Warhound titan, don't bother with the other mode since you super buffed him. 12 (mortal or otherwise) wounds needed to get through the first level void shield (4+), 15 wounds to get through second level (5+) and the remaining 28 dmg is enough to wreck the Warhound.
TELL ME WHAT IMPERIUM UNIT WILL SURVIVE. (in a 2000 point game)
Able to throw 18 to-hit dice on reroll-able 2s and reroll-able 2s to wound.
Take an ideal fight phase scenario against conscripts and a warhound titan:
- Morty not degraded yet.
- Morty next to deathshroud and Herald of Nurgle.
- Morty with prescience and that 7+ mortal wound psychic power.
- Morty with Vets of the Long War. (for a +2 to wound roll)
21 dice with ~21 hits and 7 "Death to false emperor" for another 21 dice to roll. ~41 hits. and then ~40 wounds and 13 mortal wounds.
Are you adding an attack for the =1 bonus the Deathshroud have? That applies to every character except Morty.
Able to throw 18 to-hit dice on reroll-able 2s and reroll-able 2s to wound.
Take an ideal fight phase scenario against conscripts and a warhound titan:
- Morty not degraded yet.
- Morty next to deathshroud and Herald of Nurgle.
- Morty with prescience and that 7+ mortal wound psychic power.
- Morty with Vets of the Long War. (for a +2 to wound roll)
21 dice with ~21 hits and 7 "Death to false emperor" for another 21 dice to roll. ~41 hits. and then ~40 wounds and 13 mortal wounds.
Are you adding an attack for the =1 bonus the Deathshroud have? That applies to every character except Morty.
He's stiill preposterously destructive, though
I did. Ok, maybe he won't kill a Warhound in a turn then. Disgustingly Destructive.
Don't forget to give morty the +7 buff from Epidemius if you want ideal fighting conditions. I ran a CHAOS army with DG and Daemons, mostly daemon engines and epidemius. I think Epi+morty will be a force to be reckoned with.
Funnily enough, if we're comparing 3 plasma guns to 2 blight launchers against meq, then plasma outdamages significantly from the 1-23" range, they are actually the same from 23-29 inches, and then blight launchers will win out from the 29-35 range.
Am I missing something here? You're comparing 41 points of plasma (combi + 2 plas on a PM squad?) against 28 points of blight launchers. Of course the plasma should do better. The real comparison is 1 plasma + 2 blighter launchers vs. 3 plasma. I haven't run the number so the plasma could still be better.
Yeah insanely good at dying in one turn. I seriously doubt any seriously competitive army list will include him unless its something other than Deathguard.
I knew he was a trap the moment they announced he was the first release.
Sweet model, but there are far better things to spend your 470 points on.
Yeah insanely good at dying in one turn. I seriously doubt any seriously competitive army list will include him unless its something other than Deathguard.
I knew he was a trap the moment they announced he was the first release.
Sweet model, but there are far better things to spend your 470 points on.
Yeah getting over to the Titan in that example is hilarious. What you think a TITAN is just going to let you waltz up and hit you with a primarch?
Yeah insanely good at dying in one turn. I seriously doubt any seriously competitive army list will include him unless its something other than Deathguard.
I knew he was a trap the moment they announced he was the first release.
Sweet model, but there are far better things to spend your 470 points on.
Mayk0l wrote: Question guys.
The codex says I can take a Flail on one of the Blightlord Terminators. Does this include the champion?
Id argue yes because he is a blightlord terminator (datasheet name) and no because he's actually called a Blightlord Champion and wargear options for champions are usually mentioned separately.
Thanks!
It's the latter. As you say, Blightlord Terminators and Blightlord Champions are specifically distinct and do not have the same wargear options.
Well that was the tipping point for me. After this revelation I won't being buying the termie kit. However the death shroud appear more enticing now with the champion taking dual plaguespurts and deepstriking a chaos termie lord with arch-contaminator WL trait and a balesword next to them, maybe throw in typhus and have all the characters getting +1A. However I keep foreseeing the same problem, how will they ever make it into melee or even pistol range? As of now I won't be getting any termies unless I decide in the future I need to soften up my lists really badly.
The only viability I see with any termies are blightlords kitted purely for ranged, maybe just purely stock with combi-bolters is the best option, 20 shots at 18" range, not too shabby. Fairly cheap and efficient for what it is, but quite boring.
Yeah insanely good at dying in one turn. I seriously doubt any seriously competitive army list will include him unless its something other than Deathguard.
I knew he was a trap the moment they announced he was the first release.
Sweet model, but there are far better things to spend your 470 points on.
I say this with all the love and respect in the world:
You are 100% wrong.
It's not that DG don't have good other options - they absolutely do. But the meta right now, competitively speaking, is horde. If you bring all the guns necessary to kill morty in one turn, especially if you go second, you probably are going to lose the game because you tailored against him and can't beat the hordes of models bearing down on you.
Morty is GREAT in the competitive scene because he is great against the meta of hordes right now. The only thing against Morty is that he can't be included in a battalion, so he eats up valuable CP by simply being in your army. The other knock on him is that Magnus is great, not because of his amazing durability and cc prowess, but as a support caster. Casting warptime and prescience with amazing reliability is absolutely not to be underestimated. And late game, of course he can slap stuff around in CC too. The reason why this is a problem for Morty is for the same reason that Morty's inclusion in an army in the first place is somewhat problematic - lack of CP. Especially if you want to run two super heavy auxiliary detachments and a battalion on the side, you're capped at 6 (or 7 or 8 if you do supreme command shenanigans, but that's too HQ heavy to be competitive). The only other option is a triple super heavy detachment with both of them and some other super heavy. But that's an issue because then you have no points left over for other things at 2k.
So yeah, a lot of competitive CSM lists will continue to take Magnus because those lists are no worse today than they were yesterday. But you can absolutely make a very competitive list with Morty, as long as you don't include too many Death Guard units that aren't Typhus or Poxwalkers. Or any at all. Putting Morty in place of Magnus in a competitive CSM list, as long as you adjust accordingly to make sure you still have Ahriman, is absolutely a viable tactic. It's probably what I'll do with the BFS GT next month. Or bring 3 super heavies. Who knows?
Able to throw 18 to-hit dice on reroll-able 2s and reroll-able 2s to wound.
Take an ideal fight phase scenario against conscripts and a warhound titan:
- Morty not degraded yet.
- Morty next to deathshroud and Herald of Nurgle.
- Morty with prescience and that 7+ mortal wound psychic power.
- Morty with Vets of the Long War. (for a +2 to wound roll)
21 dice with ~21 hits and 7 "Death to false emperor" for another 21 dice to roll. ~41 hits. and then ~40 wounds and 13 mortal wounds.
If against Warhound titan, don't bother with the other mode since you super buffed him. 12 (mortal or otherwise) wounds needed to get through the first level void shield (4+), 15 wounds to get through second level (5+) and the remaining 28 dmg is enough to wreck the Warhound.
TELL ME WHAT IMPERIUM UNIT WILL SURVIVE. (in a 2000 point game)
It was already mentioned before in this thread <smug because it was me> ).
But yeah he got some crazy damage possibilties that no other unit in this game has.
Yeah insanely good at dying in one turn. I seriously doubt any seriously competitive army list will include him unless its something other than Deathguard.
I knew he was a trap the moment they announced he was the first release.
Sweet model, but there are far better things to spend your 470 points on.
Yeah sadly ... 470 points and he is not that much more resillient than Magnus, in fact if you go 2nd at least Magnus can sit in changeling range.
Morty gotta hide his bigass model.
Funnily enough, if we're comparing 3 plasma guns to 2 blight launchers against meq, then plasma outdamages significantly from the 1-23" range, they are actually the same from 23-29 inches, and then blight launchers will win out from the 29-35 range.
Am I missing something here? You're comparing 41 points of plasma (combi + 2 plas on a PM squad?) against 28 points of blight launchers. Of course the plasma should do better. The real comparison is 1 plasma + 2 blighter launchers vs. 3 plasma. I haven't run the number so the plasma could still be better.
If you look at the other posts, I ran the earlier comparisons of 2 plasma guns vs 2 blight launchers and the plasma guns outdamage when in rapid fire range even without overcharging for point comparison purposes.
That discussion you quoted was based on my earlier comments that I don't want to run 2 blightlaunchers and a plasma gun in the squad because I still wouldn't want to advance and shoot if I paid for a plasma gun. To me, the choice is running 3 plasma guns (no combi needed, the champ can take a regular plasma gun too) to maximize damage or 2 blight launchers to focus on more distant targets. It's not about the point difference as the direct damage comparisons were already given.
NurglesR0T wrote: Hey everyone, if I took a Sorcerer on Palanquin of Nurgle (thanks to index faq, he get's DG keyword) would he get access to Dark Hereticus or Contagion? That might be a decent way of getting warp time access with a DG psyker.
Personally I would say that he must take Contagion like the other DG Sorcerers' in the codex, but according to the index rules, you take the datasheet from the index, which in this case would be Dark Hereticus.
You want to go pure death guard? If so, I'd do something like:
[...]
Necrosius
[...]
Out of curiosity, why Necrosius instead of Plague Surgeons? Each is half the cost and allow all Death Guard units to reroll 1's for their Disgustingly Resilient rolls, not just Pox Walkers. The only advantage I can see for Necrosius is that he offers psychic support and fills an HQ slot while Plague Surgeons are Elites (no idea how to take advantage of his Arch-Sorcerer of the Tainted ability).
That aside, I'd probably add the Blightspawn to the list of hoard support units. The Unholy Stench ability looks like a huge boon for the slow-moving pox walkers since it cancels some of the threat by opposing charges and shuts off always swings first abilities.
And I would never want to paint that many anything ever. Any good DG lists with actual Plague Marines? lol
I can totally respect that. I have people for that
Can you kill 100 models? If the answer to that is "I hope no one plays a horde army" then you're in for a sad surprise in the competitive scene.
Death guard struggle against hordes, and poxwalkers are great answers to that. It's not the only answer, but an elite army has to make sure that they have an answer, especially in this meta
Out of curiosity, why Necrosius instead of Plague Surgeons? Each is half the cost and allow all Death Guard units to reroll 1's for their Disgustingly Resilient rolls, not just Pox Walkers. The only advantage I can see for Necrosius is that he offers psychic support and fills an HQ slot while Plague Surgeons are Elites (no idea how to take advantage of his Arch-Sorcerer of the Tainted ability).
That aside, I'd probably add the Blightspawn to the list of hoard support units. The Unholy Stench ability looks like a huge boon for the slow-moving pox walkers since it cancels some of the threat by opposing charges and shuts off always swings first abilities.
Not quite half the cost. Necrosius gives you a sorceror (of nurgle, admittedly) as well as a surgeon in an HQ slot (yes that is a big deal for death guard) for barely more than just a sorceror. One thousand percent worth it even if the tainted ability means literally nothing (which is how I've been playing it)
Blightspawn is pretty unimpressive imo. It doesn't matter if "always goes first" gets turned off unless:
1) you plan on couteractivating for 2 CP
And
2) they charged at least one other unit
Even if it wasn't that situational...meh. Faster poxwalkers is nice though
NurglesR0T wrote: Hey everyone, if I took a Sorcerer on Palanquin of Nurgle (thanks to index faq, he get's DG keyword) would he get access to Dark Hereticus or Contagion? That might be a decent way of getting warp time access with a DG psyker.
Personally I would say that he must take Contagion like the other DG Sorcerers' in the codex, but according to the index rules, you take the datasheet from the index, which in this case would be Dark Hereticus.
It would let you give Warptime to any Death Guard psyker. Thinking this would be great against Ynarri.
Not saying that that's gaming for advantage, but it's enough in the grey area that I personally wouldn't do it unless an FAQ came out confirming that it works
Alright so I've been number crunching, and I noticed a few things:
We have generally awful anti infantry and horde options. Even the plague drone struggles due to pricing. As far as I can tell, cultists with autoguns and heavy stunners taking advantage of our legion tactic are probably our best anti infantry unit. Poxwalkers are also not awful, but suffer from needing the enemy to come to them if you want them to do anything.
I've also become less impressed as I actually broke down our unique units and begin looking at what they offered for cost. Blight crawlers were the only really good ones, and they need a chaos lord with the plague weapon boosting WT to really work well. Haulers aren't very good, honestly be better to just toss your infantry in a rhino if you were worried about them getting killed. Drones are alright but honestly probably outperformed by a properly outfitted helbrute most of the time. Our terminators aren't very good, deathshroud being 200+ points for ablative wounds and blightlords lacking everything that makes normal CSM terminators good. Their only compensation being durability, so a cheap unit can be a decent distraction I guess.
Our characters are a little better? 9 PM and the grenade dude in a rhino isn't bad with the stratagem. Tallyman works great boosting a poxwalker screen (way better than typhus) and his ability. Morty is solid as well... but works better with almost any other army supporting him.
I'll be buying almost all of the models eventually, as I love their looks, but I am disappointed by the rules that go with them so far.
Poxwalkers are absolutely insane, especially with the stratagem. No other weakling unit in the game screams "Murder Me" like these guys do. With buff auras and abilities, they become stronger than marines. With stratagems and their natural skills, they fill up their ranks to enormous size. Which stacks with their "punching harder than marines" synergy. This is a unit that the enemy must absolutely shoot at early on to prevent them from becoming obscenely powerful later. Failing to kill them before they reach your infantry, or allowing them to grow without understanding how strong they can become, will result in your entire back line being eradicated by them when they finally arrive. They are the slow-moving final push that will wreck anything upon arrival, supplemented by the Death Guard trait that softens up the enemy on the way.
Death Guard is like a Magic the Gathering deck that starts out slow and wants to build up toward a colossal end game then tramples all over your toys.
SilverAlien wrote: Alright so I've been number crunching, and I noticed a few things:
We have generally awful anti infantry and horde options. Even the plague drone struggles due to pricing. As far as I can tell, cultists with autoguns and heavy stunners taking advantage of our legion tactic are probably our best anti infantry unit. Poxwalkers are also not awful, but suffer from needing the enemy to come to them if you want them to do anything.
I've also become less impressed as I actually broke down our unique units and begin looking at what they offered for cost. Blight crawlers were the only really good ones, and they need a chaos lord with the plague weapon boosting WT to really work well. Haulers aren't very good, honestly be better to just toss your infantry in a rhino if you were worried about them getting killed. Drones are alright but honestly probably outperformed by a properly outfitted helbrute most of the time. Our terminators aren't very good, deathshroud being 200+ points for ablative wounds and blightlords lacking everything that makes normal CSM terminators good. Their only compensation being durability, so a cheap unit can be a decent distraction I guess.
Our characters are a little better? 9 PM and the grenade dude in a rhino isn't bad with the stratagem. Tallyman works great boosting a poxwalker screen (way better than typhus) and his ability. Morty is solid as well... but works better with almost any other army supporting him.
I'll be buying almost all of the models eventually, as I love their looks, but I am disappointed by the rules that go with them so far.
You're doing Grandfather Nurgle's work! Do you have a bit more details about the numbers on those? For example, why is the tallyman better than typhus for poxwalkers (and what is the difference?) I'm really curious on how to make deathguard work.
Had a game against Space wolves couple of days ago to try the new unit. We played 100PL game of Emperors will(or whatever the name is nowadays for two objective game). Even though we use power levels we try to keep the upgrades reasonable and use the matched play restrictions for summoning, psychic powers and stratagems. Here is the list I used:
Necrosius
Winged Daemon prince with Suppurating plate and arch-contaminator
10 Plague marines with fist, p-gun and blight launchers, two flails
10 Plague marines with fist, p-gun and blight launchers, two flails
10 Gun cultists
10 Gun cultists
20 Pox walkers
Blightspawn
Biologis Putrifier
Bloat drone with fleshmower
Bloat drone with fleshmower
Blight hauler
Blight hauler
Plagueburst crawler with entropy cannons
My idea was to try out the massed infantry formation advancing steadily and supported by the different auras and buffs. One could say the very image GW has given for the new Death guard. My opponent had Space wolf terminator list with couple units of melee termies and wolfen, supported by thunder wolves, long range dreadnoughts, long fangs and the huge transport/attack craft with tons of AT-guns (No idea what it was called). He conceded at the end of turn 5 with having only one dreadnought left. Couple of comments below:
Necrosius: His main strength is ability to deny three times a turn and knowing three spells and being only one PL more expensive than Plaguecaster. No enemy psykers present and I could have easily managed with two spells so I'll just give him another try. His boost to Poxwalker survivability is not too hot either as walkers die anyway by the bucket if they come under dedicated attack. Had plague wind, miasma of pestilence and gift of contagion.
Daemon prince: Fast, tough, deadly in combat and buffs units with spells and auras. Absolutely my go-to HQ unit and I really struggle to justify any other trait than comtaminator. Blades of putrefaction, reroll 1's and arch-contaminator allowed plague marines to whack terminators in melee. He even took out wolf priest in single combat by passing armor saves and causing mortal wounds. Fluffy and effective!
Plague marines: Not often seen as a great choice but I love them. Huge benefit from the rapid fire buff allows them to stay out of charge ranges while firing to full effect. I know mixed equipment is often seen as a poor option but those flails really give the crucial edge in melee against jack-off-all-trades type units. They benefit from every kind of buff or spell available so it's pretty easy to give them that extra bite in melee when the assault units reach your lines.
Cultists: Bubble wrap against deep strikers. They benefit a lot from the 18" double tap range and move-and-fire heavy stubber. For a 3PL unit, atleast.
Poxwalkers: No change here. Didn't get to use their new stratagem.
Blightspawn: It was hard to position him right to benefit from his aura. His most useful ability was the crazy powerful flamer which took out the flier right from the sky. Other than that, not a necessary character at all.
Putrifier: He was hilarious as I managed to pull off Blight bombardment with his grenades and Veterans of Long war. Unit of plague marines caused a total of 11 mortal wounds plus truckload of regular wounds against Wolfen wiping out the unit in single volley. I don't know how useful he is when you play against someone who doesn't come charging across the field.
Bloat drones: I haven't played with them before and managed to get them killed without attacking a single time. Need careful positioning which I obviously need to practice. Plan was to rush with the prince and benefit from his rerolls. Got caught with my pants down by las-cannons and thunder wolves.
Blight hauler: Provided cover save to nearby plague marines thus providing more of a psychological effect than actual threat. Surprisingly resilient with demonic save and feel no pain againts long range missiles and las-cannons. Not at all necessary since it's shooting is rather mediocre and plague marines are usually finding cover anyways.
Plagueburst crawler: Rather disappointing. Mediocre BS made it's mortar rather useless and I don't think buffing them with arch-contaminator does any good since they have trouble hitting, not wounding. Everyone knows how the once feared battlecannon is nowadays. Entropy cannons don't match well with it's long range mortar either. But it's tough as hell, I gotta give you that. I wish we could somehow utilise that toughness as a transport but for now I wish I had taken a Predator instead.
Hmmm, I need more details. You said plagueburst crawler was mediocre, and Blight hauler was mediocre too. And your bloat drones got shot off the table without doing anything. So, your two squads of plague marines and your one single Daemon Prince soloed most of the rest of your opponent's army? (You said he was almost tabled by turn 5) ...
So I've had a look over the new dex, but I haven't played in awhile (about a year), so to be honest im not really very competent at being able to tell how effective units are compared to the current meta.
I have a walker list in mind, as I have quite a lot of helbrutes already, what are your thoughts of the new vehicles for DG? also helbrutes don't seem to benefit from many of the DG rules? or am i missing something?
Eldenfirefly wrote: Hmmm, I need more details. You said plagueburst crawler was mediocre, and Blight hauler was mediocre too. And your bloat drones got shot off the table without doing anything. So, your two squads of plague marines and your one single Daemon Prince soloed most of the rest of your opponent's army? (You said he was almost tabled by turn 5) ...
Yes, pretty much. Couple of rapid fire volleys, smite and curse of the leper(I got this mixed with plague wind) took out enough terminators and thunderwolves to blunt his offensive. The rest were finished in melee and Wolfen were blasted by single Blight bombardment. Blight launcher is great weapon against two wound terminators and thunder wolves and stacking mortal wounds removes their greatest defense which is storm shield. Of course cultists and pox walkers were used as road blocks to funnel his troops into optimal fire zones but most of the damage was done by plague marines using different psychic powers and auras. As I said the situation would have probably been a bit different against an army with less assault focus.
So I've had a look over the new dex, but I haven't played in awhile (about a year), so to be honest im not really very competent at being able to tell how effective units are compared to the current meta.
I have a walker list in mind, as I have quite a lot of helbrutes already, what are your thoughts of the new vehicles for DG? also helbrutes don't seem to benefit from many of the DG rules? or am i missing something?
With it helbrutes being able to move and shoot at full bs. It's particularly nice if you wanted to run a mixed loadout, or a cheap melee loadout by slapping a heavy bolter and power scourge on
Milkshaker wrote: You're doing Grandfather Nurgle's work! Do you have a bit more details about the numbers on those? For example, why is the tallyman better than typhus for poxwalkers (and what is the difference?) I'm really curious on how to make deathguard work.
I'll try and do a full write up with number comparisons soon, if only so people can point out areas I might've gotten wrong, it might be a couple days though this week is kinda busy. It'd also be pure theorycraft/mathhammer which annoys some people, I've only gotten to play a few games proxying stuff for our new units. But I can do a couple quick summaries without the full math.
As for tallyman vs typhus specifically, one thing I've started to appreciate about poxwalkers is that offensive boosts also increase their defense, by allowing more regenerating zombies. Given they are a 4+/5+ WS, being able to reroll all missed hits is a big boost for them, at least as useful as the str/tough increase of typhus against most enemies. Tallyman also comes in at 67 vs 175 for typhus, and typhus struggles as a buffing unit due to being an expensive melee beatstick and caster. You need to deepstrike him in to benefit from most of his abilities unless you know, for a fact, the enemy will come to you. He can't even keep up with a blight hauler+poxwalker moving screen on foot, and slows the entire thing down (poxwalkers, especially with a blightbringer, outpace him). Bit of a shame because miasma of pestilence on the blight haulers is a pretty solid usage of the psychic power, but we have other options for that. So Tallyman just works better with poxwalkers in their main role as a screen, Typhus is better used as an upgraded LoC that can reliably contribute something when he deepstrikes thanks to his psychic powers, for which the 25-35 point increase is trivial(not to mention his hive and upgraded scythe).
I'll also mention blightcrawlers as they are one of our better unique units. They are up against lascannons predators as our best long range anti tank. Predators do more damage per point, even with the plague weapon boosting warlord trait which you want to make them shine, and have better range. But the blightcrawler is absurdly tough, factoring in toughness, invulnerable save, extra wound, and DR, for 30-40 points less with its best loadout (two entropy cannons+mortar). You also don't want to use them like actual artillery, parking it behind LoS blocking terrain, that's a trap. The fact it ignores LoS is basically just to allow counter fire vs fragile vehicles tucked out of sight, you want it parked front and center for the entropy cannons.
How are people dealing with the mismatch in manouverability between Poxalkers and their pretty-much-essential buffing chum Typhus? It's all fair and well taking a Blightbringer to get some extra advance distance, but when those rolls are halfed for Typhus, you still aren't going anywhere fast (Ok, not fast, nobody playing a DG army expects to be going fast, but you're barely going anywhere at all).
So I've had a look over the new dex, but I haven't played in awhile (about a year), so to be honest im not really very competent at being able to tell how effective units are compared to the current meta.
I have a walker list in mind, as I have quite a lot of helbrutes already, what are your thoughts of the new vehicles for DG? also helbrutes don't seem to benefit from many of the DG rules? or am i missing something?
With it helbrutes being able to move and shoot at full bs. It's particularly nice if you wanted to run a mixed loadout, or a cheap melee loadout by slapping a heavy bolter and power scourge on
Milkshaker wrote: You're doing Grandfather Nurgle's work! Do you have a bit more details about the numbers on those? For example, why is the tallyman better than typhus for poxwalkers (and what is the difference?) I'm really curious on how to make deathguard work.
I'll try and do a full write up with number comparisons soon, if only so people can point out areas I might've gotten wrong, it might be a couple days though this week is kinda busy. It'd also be pure theorycraft/mathhammer which annoys some people, I've only gotten to play a few games proxying stuff for our new units. But I can do a couple quick summaries without the full math.
As for tallyman vs typhus specifically, one thing I've started to appreciate about poxwalkers is that offensive boosts also increase their defense, by allowing more regenerating zombies. Given they are a 4+/5+ WS, being able to reroll all missed hits is a big boost for them, at least as useful as the str/tough increase of typhus against most enemies. Tallyman also comes in at 67 vs 175 for typhus, and typhus struggles as a buffing unit due to being an expensive melee beatstick and caster. You need to deepstrike him in to benefit from most of his abilities unless you know, for a fact, the enemy will come to you. He can't even keep up with a blight hauler+poxwalker moving screen on foot, and slows the entire thing down (poxwalkers, especially with a blightbringer, outpace him). Bit of a shame because miasma of pestilence on the blight haulers is a pretty solid usage of the psychic power, but we have other options for that. So Tallyman just works better with poxwalkers in their main role as a screen, Typhus is better used as an upgraded LoC that can reliably contribute something when he deepstrikes thanks to his psychic powers, for which the 25-35 point increase is trivial(not to mention his hive and upgraded scythe).
I'll also mention blightcrawlers as they are one of our better unique units. They are up against lascannons predators as our best long range anti tank. Predators do more damage per point, even with the plague weapon boosting warlord trait which you want to make them shine, and have better range. But the blightcrawler is absurdly tough, factoring in toughness, invulnerable save, extra wound, and DR, for 30-40 points less with its best loadout (two entropy cannons+mortar). You also don't want to use them like actual artillery, parking it behind LoS blocking terrain, that's a trap. The fact it ignores LoS is basically just to allow counter fire vs fragile vehicles tucked out of sight, you want it parked front and center for the entropy cannons.
Thanks! I've noticed the "Typhus is slow" issue and the "crawler-out-of-LOS" trap, but I hadn't thought of the offensive potential of the tallyman boosting the durability of poxwalkers! that is quite a good point thanks!
How are people dealing with the mismatch in manouverability between Poxalkers and their pretty-much-essential buffing chum Typhus? It's all fair and well taking a Blightbringer to get some extra advance distance, but when those rolls are halfed for Typhus, you still aren't going anywhere fast (Ok, not fast, nobody playing a DG army expects to be going fast, but you're barely going anywhere at all).
Daisy chain 1 model back to Typhus. Problem solved
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ok so I made a list that's REALLY CLOSE to pure death guard. And I actually like it a lot. And it's actually a 2k list. Only non-death guard are the nurgle herald, who can heal mortarion and the drones, and the malefic lords for a few extra mortal wounds. And because they're a cheap HQ choice.
kaintxu wrote: If the Leviathan is your only long range support, he wont last that long.
I will find the points to add in 2 rapier bateries. Even if only with HB, they are still great.
The Quad HB seems pretty fantastic on paper. 12 S5 AP -1 shots at 48" for 82pt isn't too shabby at all. Especially when you can take up to three per slot.
How are people dealing with the mismatch in manouverability between Poxalkers and their pretty-much-essential buffing chum Typhus? It's all fair and well taking a Blightbringer to get some extra advance distance, but when those rolls are halfed for Typhus, you still aren't going anywhere fast (Ok, not fast, nobody playing a DG army expects to be going fast, but you're barely going anywhere at all).
Pretty much essential? No, not really. You need a blight bringer to run them up the field, and a tallyman is much more point efficient buffing unit who can actually keep with them without issue. You should then consider blight haulers sort of as a buffing unit, but also as mobile heavy weapons that need a screen as they close the distance.
After all that you might want to consider typhus. But honestly you should probably be spending points on other parts of you army, you've sunk at least 130 points just to buffing the poxwalkers, plus around 180 points on the units themselves to make the buffs worth it. That's ignoring the haulers, who would be another 400 ish points for a unit of three of you go that route. There really is a limit to how many points you can pump into a unit that won't make an impact till turn three.
If you really wanna buff poxwalkers with typhus, deepstrike him with some blightlord terminators and hope he survives till they get there.
How are people dealing with the mismatch in manouverability between Poxalkers and their pretty-much-essential buffing chum Typhus? It's all fair and well taking a Blightbringer to get some extra advance distance, but when those rolls are halfed for Typhus, you still aren't going anywhere fast (Ok, not fast, nobody playing a DG army expects to be going fast, but you're barely going anywhere at all).
Pretty much essential? No, not really. You need a blight bringer to run them up the field, and a tallyman is much more point efficient buffing unit who can actually keep with them without issue. You should then consider blight haulers sort of as a buffing unit, but also as mobile heavy weapons that need a screen as they close the distance.
After all that you might want to consider typhus. But honestly you should probably be spending points on other parts of you army, you've sunk at least 130 points just to buffing the poxwalkers, plus around 180 points on the units themselves to make the buffs worth it. That's ignoring the haulers, who would be another 400 ish points for a unit of three of you go that route. There really is a limit to how many points you can pump into a unit that won't make an impact till turn three.
If you really wanna buff poxwalkers with typhus, deepstrike him with some blightlord terminators and hope he survives till they get there.
This is the problem I have with poxwalkers in general. It just takes to much resources to make them good. I don't want to keep Typhus out of the game for several turns as he moves along with my 240ps of pox walkers. I would much rather he drop in with the Blightlords to present multiple problems to my opponent who also has a bloat drone and Mortarian in his face. Honestly, I really would rather use either plague marines or plaguebearers which are both excellent bargains.
They aren't bad as a backfired screen, the regenerating models bit really pays off there because they will rarely be targeted with ranged fire. But that really is the only area I feel they shine.
Personally I lean towards cultists as our optimal choice. Still. Plague marines aren't bad but they are so expensive you really can't do more than 1-2 units without eating into your point budget.
kaintxu wrote: If the Leviathan is your only long range support, he wont last that long.
I will find the points to add in 2 rapier bateries. Even if only with HB, they are still great.
I'm assuming Mortarion draws some fire. Either way, they're not killing both.
Also I do like rapier batteries, like a lot, but remember that they're literally the only non-marked Forge World unit that death guard can't use. Because reasons
Personally I lean towards cultists as our optimal choice. Still. Plague marines aren't bad but they are so expensive you really can't do more than 1-2 units without eating into your point budget.
Agree with all of this in terms of a normal CSM Detachment. Poxwalkers are totally worth the investment in a death guard army. This is because most of the good units (Typhus, Necrosius), and many of the psychic powers are especially good on them. Going from t3 to T5 is way better than T5 to T6 (which is what most death guard units will get with just the psychic power)
But if you want really troll-tastic levels of toughness, grab Fabius Bile and experiment on your dudes. Just over half the time you'll get +1 T, which brings you up to T6!!!! on the poxwalkers, or T7!!!! on your normal marines/terminators. It's only 1 squad per turn, and you have to invest a CP re-roll to get to 55% reliability. So not worth building a strategy around. But hilarious when it works!
I think poxwalkers seem great. Helping a friend work on his 1k list to expand on DI starter force to play against my Primaris and a friends nids and we've come up with;
General idea being multiple options for the marines and sorcerers to move up the board, in some combination of Rhino and poxwalkers bubblewrap. One plaguecaster will mostly buff the walkers and smite. The crawler will likely sit on an objective and fire away, initially the plan would be bubblewrap by poxwalkers with the plaguespitters for deterrent but the missiles seem like they'll have more effect on the game. The drone can accompany the rhino up the weakest flank. Is having 3 contingents to the force in 1k spreading things too thin?; small amount of heavy support, a footslogging contingents and a mechanized wing?
I've been using ultramarine chapter tactics and primarily play a gunline thus far, and our tyranid opponent is still experimenting with tactics but I felt this list does enough that there likely isn't an obvious priority target and it's spread out enough it can grab objectives. The DG flamer style weapons seem, on first glance, to serve as overwatch help against faster opponents and crowd control against the Tyranids. Nids against us has so far been 2 big kitted out monsters and a pile of cheap trash troops with some genestealers for good measure.
Yeah nailed by some already, seems like cultists have better synergy with DG than pox and can actually deal some damage with rapid fire at 18" and hitting with heavy weapon with no penalty.
Honestly I forgot about that, but I can see cultists now more in my list than pox.
On top of that if I spend basically 40 points less per 20 man unit for 3 units for example I can almost afford Fleshmower drone.
Really reasons to not take pox are just pilling in.
Is it possible to put a chaos sorcerer, a Hearald of Nurgle, and 3x Plaguebearer units in the same battalion detachment? Would my sorcerer still have access to warptime and my Herald have access to the heal psychic power? Most importantly would I get the 3x CPs?
broxus wrote: Is it possible to put a chaos sorcerer, a Hearald of Nurgle, and 3x Plaguebearer units in the same battalion detachment? Would my sorcerer still have access to warptime and my Herald have access to the heal psychic power? Most importantly would I get the 3x CPs?
Yes but it will be Chaos Detachment like speh marines can be with IG and idk sisters in one detachment and they will be imperium.
So I think yes you get your CPs per restriction - as you get all from one faction Chaos - if this counts as faction - but I think it does. Someone please confirm, as i'm not really 100% sure.
Of course you lose all kind of bonuses including DTFE etc ... I think.'
About Psychic powers ... well I think they will still be able to cast all stuff you mentioned - because otherwise what they will cast lol. Smite xd ?
broxus wrote: Is it possible to put a chaos sorcerer, a Hearald of Nurgle, and 3x Plaguebearer units in the same battalion detachment? Would my sorcerer still have access to warptime and my Herald have access to the heal psychic power? Most importantly would I get the 3x CPs?
Yes. The only things you miss out on by doing this are:
1) objective secured for any troops in that detachment
2) legion traits (like the -1 to hit for alpha legion)
3) using stratagems (like the double fire for a slaanesh unit)
Well they all would be nurgle so I get I can't get any DG or other chapter benefits. However, I think this may be a cheap way to get what I need to make Mortarian and my other units successful. I just hate I cant add all the stuff i want in to my DG list since all the models are so expensive.
broxus wrote: Well they all would be nurgle so I get I can't get any DG or other chapter benefits. However, I think this may be a cheap way to get what I need to make Mortarian and my other units successful. I just hate I cant add all the stuff i want in to my DG list since all the models are so expensive.
Lol I really don't know how expensive stuff is in North America, here in PL I can get Mortarion for around ~~75-80€ and that ain't expensive at all for me.
Though I heard it gets rough in Australia for example.
yeah if I will want to win something instead of just enjoying - gotta mix in those chaos sorcerers.
The best I can really get without trying to find weird eBay stores/etc is 10% off that.
edit:
American store - 140 USD
Australian store - 230 AUD
1 USD currently buys 1.24 AUD
He's 173.66 AUD direct from GW US.. but 230 from GW AU?
Really?
REALLY?
Get fethed.
Well here it costs around 100€, but since I don't have local store anyway in my 100 000 city - then I buy online and it's easy as hell to get 25% discount there.
But honestly that is not actually surprising average salary in Poland is substantially lower than those in USA/Australia . But all you need is just get more than average haha.
Used to be out of hobby , until I got decent job. Now those miniatures are not expensive at all - actually they are cheap as gak compared to time I have to spend painting.
But enough of off topic.
I ... was enlightened with new tactic.
What about in addition to your battlion of DG - you add ... DG that is not DGlol. What i'm trying to say is DG spearhead / outrider - with daemon engines like PBC/ Heavy Blight launcher drone/ Defiler/ Haulers.
Now why would you do that ? First of all you can get your Chaos Sorcerer HQ - that is already win - second since you deploy this detachment as actually CSM - you suddenly get access to Daemon Engine stratagem.
Now someone please confirm i can field it as CSM if i have non DGHQ sorcerer.
Honestly ... We don't lose anything valuable (except for exploding vehicle stratagem , putrescent blades for fleshmower drone) - but we can field HQ we need outside of DG AND we can actually reroll all hits and all wounds on damn PBC - this is massive damage boost.
Or reroll everything on Fleshmover drone - we are talking about 9 attacks where we reroll all hits and wounds !!!
For me its sure worth it - we have now prescience and warp time, daemon engine for PBC. It's not even unfluffy and thematic - you just got extra sorcerer. After all DG are chaos space marines. It's sure more fluffy than sorcerer with WE dudes.
To be a CSM detachment and get access to the stratagems all units must have Legion BLACK LEGION, WORD BEARERS, IRON
WARRIORS, ALPHA LEGION, NIGHT
LORDS, WORLD EATERS, EMPEROR’S
CHILDREN, FALLEN or RED CORSAIRS keyword.
Ix_Tab wrote: To be a CSM detachment and get access to the stratagems all units must have Legion BLACK LEGION, WORD BEARERS, IRON
WARRIORS, ALPHA LEGION, NIGHT
LORDS, WORLD EATERS, EMPEROR’S
CHILDREN, FALLEN or RED CORSAIRS keyword.
I see, that sucks then :(. Wanted Daemon Engine for my PBC badly.
Note that having a CSM detachment would allow you to use the stratagems on any eligible unit, as the rules are currently. So if you had a CSM detachment and a nurgle detachment, you could use the veterans of the long war stratagem from the CSM book (which states it requires heretic astartes infantry) on a death guard blightlord or plague marine in the nurgle detachment.
Sadly the daemon forge stratagem specifies chaos space marine (not bolded) daemon vehicle, which means on from the CSM book. So that won't work.
This also means that, if you have a CSM detachment in the same army as morty, you can use chaos familiar (targets any heretic astartes psyker) to swap one of his powers with warptime.
Now, I'm pretty sure this wasn't intended, and I'm pretty sure CSM stratagems aren't supposed to target units that aren't in the CSM book. I just can't find such a rule in evidence.
With the recent talk of hordes being so awesome, I figured why not see what DG can buff a horde to? This will most likely never ever be competitive, however could be pretty fun in casual games.
Within 7" of enemy can cause mortal wounds - Lord of contagion
Re-roll 1s to hit - Chaos lord
2 advance rolls, discard lowest - Blightbringer
+1 to S and DMG of blight grenades - Biologis Putrifier
Reroll 1s for DR - Plague Surgeon
Re-roll failed hits in fight phase - tallyman
Cover - Mythitic Blight hauler
Furthermore Psychic powers can buff quite a large amount too, creating a super unit that is bound to be a poor use of points!
-1 to be hit - Miasma of pestilence
+1 to wound and chance at double dmg in fight phase - Blades of putrefaction
+1 S and T - Putrescent Vitality
Stratagems
Cloud of flies can prevent that unit from being shot at unless closest, for 1 CP and no limit on uses, this can make 1 unit of infantry insanely more durable.
You can use 1 CP to give them +1 to wound in shooting or fight phase. With Blades of Putrefaction this could be +2 to wound. You would be wounding a warlord titan on 4s with plague marines. Re-rolling 1s, thanks to plague weapons.
Plague marines could unleash a hellish volley of grenades in the shooting phase with 1 more CP.
To run a fully stocked out unit of 20 plague marines with all these buffs (1 myphic blight hauler, good lucks staying within 7") It is 1103 points.
Not entirely practical, but with a little adjusting could make for a hilarious 1000pt game.
Additional thought, You would have 6 characters clumped up, and the unit and blighthauler. If anything got within 7" of them, it could be in a world of hurt from the mortal wounds.
I have about 100 points left over. The army needs to castle up and shuffle forward. Mortarion drops round 2 probably. Demon prince gives re-rolls, most folks receive +1 cover and I hope to get re-rolls of 1 on DR. Want to advance to around 18" to make the most of chapter tactics. Any advise greatly appreciated.
I have about 100 points left over. The army needs to castle up and shuffle forward. Mortarion drops round 2 probably. Demon prince gives re-rolls, most folks receive +1 cover and I hope to get re-rolls of 1 on DR. Want to advance to around 18" to make the most of chapter tactics. Any advise greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Silver
Nurglings must get out - or be summoned - they break DG keyword and if you drop them - you lose battalion 3 CP, split cultists into 2x 15 would solve this issue.
I have about 100 points left over. The army needs to castle up and shuffle forward. Mortarion drops round 2 probably. Demon prince gives re-rolls, most folks receive +1 cover and I hope to get re-rolls of 1 on DR. Want to advance to around 18" to make the most of chapter tactics. Any advise greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Silver
Alright, a few things:
First, what do you mean morty drops turn two? He does not have the ability to deepstrike, nor can he be summoned.
Second, you need to look into how you are going to field these units. As it stands, you cannot legally field this as a DG army except by using auxiliary detachments unless you plan on summoning the nurglings (which kinda wastes their best feature). So you need more HQs, and you need to decide how you are going to divide them up anything in the same detachment as the nurglings loses the DGCT as well. You also have only a single HQ, meaning it's currently only a patrol detachment with no cp bonus.
Adding at least two HQs will be hard with only 100 points left over. So you will likely need to trim some of the units. I'd personally cut the plague surgeon, who will only benefit you PM and only by a marginal amount, and the plague marines themselves. Cultists are just better for troops, we have things superior to PM to spend 300ish points on.
It'd be helpful to know how you plan to know how you plan to equip some of these units (blight crawler, bloat drone, and helbrute)
A modified list might look like:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Nurgle
HQ: CSM renegade terminator sorcerer of nurgle (take warptime, use it on mortarion)
Death guard demon prince
Troops: nurgling
Two more troops: poxwalkers, nurglings, or plaguebearers would all work fine, cultists/PM need to go in the dedicated DG detachment
Battalion: DG HQ: DG chaos lord
Second HQ of choice
Troops: 3x10 units of cultists (go with autoguns, maybe a heavy stubber)
Elite: helbrute
Fast attack: blight drone
1x3 blight haulers
Heavy: blightcrawler (would recommend entropy cannons and heavy slugger)
Lord of war detachment: DG LoW: Morty
That should fit about right, still should have a few points over to tinker. If you really want a unit of plague marines, you could swap out one of the cultist units and keep it kinda cheap.
Tactically, I'd point out the blight crawler would prefer to remain stationary, so possibly use some cheap troops to screen it in the back, maybe with a chaos lord baby sitting even.
You also could use a blight caller bell guy to boost everyone's speed a bit.
luke1705 wrote: I believe he means to say that, in his estimation, Mortarion will die on turn 2
Which he probably will, which is why he needs someone warp speeding him up the table. Or deathshroud deepstriking to screen him if you are determined to go mono DG.
Thanks for the advice very helpful as I am very new to the hobby. I made a few mistakes as I thought Morty could deep strike. Very helpful to point out the mistakes and how to correct. It will help plan what I want to buy and paint to play regularly. Hellbrute was going long range with twin lascannon and missile launcher and the same with the mortar tank with the entropy cannons. The plague crawlers I had to leave as they were.
Beside the Biologis putrifier, which of the new solo-elite do you guys think is worth it ? The Foul Blightspawn might be a nice combo with the biologis in my opinion.
Silverblad66 wrote: Thanks for the advice very helpful as I am very new to the hobby. I made a few mistakes as I thought Morty could deep strike. Very helpful to point out the mistakes and how to correct. It will help plan what I want to buy and paint to play regularly.
You guys are awesome!
Always glad to help, and don't worry I had to check to make sure morty couldn't deepstrike or be summoned lol. I really wish he could deepstrike, it'd solve so many problems with making him work well.
On that note, do you have access to the chaos index or the CSM codex? If not, might want to borrow a friend's just to get the info for the normal CSM psychic powers, for the non DG sorcerer I recommended (who otherwise uses the same datasheet and points cost as the DG terminator sorcerer). Warptime is the power you really want, it allows a friendly unit to move in the psychic phase as if it was the movement phase, basically doubling it's speed. It's pretty essential for making mortarion work well.
Khornate25 wrote: Beside the Biologis putrifier, which of the new solo-elite do you guys think is worth it ? The Foul Blightspawn might be a nice combo with the biologis in my opinion.
Foul hands down is winner for me. I don't even count superb ability of grenade or stoping enemies from going first.
What i'm talking about is his damn "flamer" that thing alone makes him worth his points - and that dude is at cost of single Deathshroud terminator.
Basically autopick. He has potential to kill land Raider in one turn - not that it will happen often lol. But that flat 3 damage AP-3 is no joke - even if you didnt roll well for strenght.
Very cheap for what he can potentially do for your army.
With Elite slot it's problematic with DG - a lot of competition.
For sure Surgeon won't make it - he is cheap and all, but his rerolling 1's on 5+ FNP is trash ... increase of whole ~~5,5% to pass FNP - no thanks. As his second skill doesnt work against xenos etc.
Biologus ain't autopick - he is good as long as you got CC oriented Plague Marines . In that case he sure is worth it.
Noxious Blightbringer - may or may not be worth - depending on your composition. But his advance skill is noteworthy.
Tallyman - he actually impressed, his CP skill is actually only 50% worse than Guilliman Warlord trait. As it triggers on 1/6 situations compared to 1/3. That alone is cool, then again only worth if you got dedicated CC dudes that he can follow. He is reasonably cheap - you get him for less than Deathshroud ^_^.
Even good elite may not be good enough when there are things like blightlords that will asap take 1 slot. You take foul and just 1 thing more. Unless Vanguard of course.
Khornate25 wrote: Beside the Biologis putrifier, which of the new solo-elite do you guys think is worth it ? The Foul Blightspawn might be a nice combo with the biologis in my opinion.
Tallyman is really good if you plan to run melee elements with lower WS, particularly poxwalker screens. He can also help a lot with fleshmower bloat drones if you are willing to pop him in a transport so he can keep up. You could even make one warlord with arch-contaminator to boost some melee plague marines, though morty or a generic chaos lord do this about as well on the 3+ WS plague marines. Plus the occasional cp restore is nice.
The purifier isn't bad for boosting a melee screening unit that will likely get charged, but his death's head isn't going to have much impact and doesn't benefit from the stratagem, which would be hilarious. The plague sprayer is also interesting and "fun", it could blow up a land raider or predator in a single shooting phase or it could utterly fail to wound a single Gretchen. On average, it's good against MEQ, TEQ, and primaris equivalents. Honestly, I'd be more likely to use him alongside tallyman in the backfield than with the putrifier.
The only one I don't see myself using at all is the apothecary. Too expensive for an ability that doesn't do enough.
I suppose this question has already been asked but: what about the blightlords? How to field them and equip them?
1. Given their slow movement I d take some massive shootin but the blight launcher is limited to one, the plasma are too dangerous (as stated before) n melta are too expensive; so the only option I can see is the cheap combi bolter
2. The CC weapons are autopick: axes and a flail
3.My best idea is to teleport them with typhus on the first turn with Typhus to buff poxwalkers, shoot and do magic, and try to charge in the next round (or being charged, not to worried about)
DarklyDreaming wrote:I suppose this question has already been asked but: what about the blightlords? How to field them and equip them?
1. Given their slow movement I d take some massive shootin but the blight launcher is limited to one, the plasma are too dangerous (as stated before) n melta are too expensive; so the only option I can see is the cheap combi bolter
2. The CC weapons are autopick: axes and a flail
3.My best idea is to teleport them with typhus on the first turn with Typhus to buff poxwalkers, shoot and do magic, and try to charge in the next round (or being charged, not to worried about)
I'd mostly agree, keep them as cheap as possible with combi bolters+melee, maybe the flail, drop typhus in for psychic dakka, use the terminators as a cheapish and very tough bulwark the enemy can't ignore.
You could use plasma and a terminator lord to reroll ones, the 18" range could allow you to hit something juicy. Still, normal CSM terminators do this better overall.
Captyn_Bob wrote:Ok so, is multiple foul blightspawn an idea?
Why would you want multiple? For the grenade? The grenade ability is a gimmick, it doubles a single character's grenades once. It's not worth using for that. Nor is the plague sprayer so good you should spam him. Take him for the ability to mess up charges, everything else is bonus.
Let me expain with some mathematics behind it:
1. I field the pox in the center of my deployment, on average they are gonna be 24' from enemy
2. In my turn they advance movin on an average of 7'
3. Typhus n the Terminators DS at 9,1 from the enemy, in order to protect typhus he must be behind them, so he's gonna be 11/12 ' from the enemy (counting a little distance between them, and the bases are quite large)
4. Being the poxes (24-7)17' from the enemy, and Typhus 12', they are gonna be totally in range(17-12=5 <7)!
5. I will not charge because I risk to leave Typhus behind and vulnerable
6. If the enemy charges, they are gonna reduce the distance by 10 (=9,1), so on my turn they are gonna be 7'from the poxwalker! Even counting some turning, I can easily charge with the poxes and get a huge boost in movements!
Yes , unpack them from Rhino/Land Raider with whatever else you have and for example 3D6 , up to S12 AP-3 3 damage autohits . Whatever it is - it's dead .
The only problem here is kinda mandatory Vanguard detachment. But that ain't that big problem.
Cultists in rapid fire range put out more damage per point than melee poxwalkers and are going to be shooting s turn earlier than poxwalkers can melee thanks to 18" RF, not to mention the heavy stubber they can bring along.
Poxwalkers are a defensive screening unit and that really is it, though they can do it well. They don't work well with typhus and building synergy between the two is so difficult you might as well just not bother. Unless you need to escort something up field, like a blight hauler, the two honestly should never be in range of each other.
Khornate25 wrote: So Deathshroud would be a better choice than Blightlords ? I'll be damn !
What gave you that impression? At 75 ppm for the cheapest loadout vs 45 for the cheapest blightlord loadout, with the same durability per model, I don't know why you'd deepstrike them. They are a little more damaging in melee (a lot more vs multiwound targets), but they have no shooting out of deepstrike.
Unless you are putting them in a landraider with an HQ unit or using warp speed on them, they are generally inferior to our normal terminators.
Khornate25 wrote: So Deathshroud would be a better choice than Blightlords ? I'll be damn !
No they are trash for 75 ppm you get special characters or lord lol.
And 2 wounds , heavily armored but 2 wounds.
Hopefully soon FAQ that they made typo and it's 3 wounds each then we can talk.
As it stands they don't even qualify for intercepting hits as they are most expensive unit in points per wound lol.
In fact I will gladly let my characters intercept hits aimed at deathshroud xd
Cultists in rapid fire range put out more damage per point than melee poxwalkers and are going to be shooting s turn earlier than poxwalkers can melee thanks to 18" RF, not to mention the heavy stubber they can bring along.
Poxwalkers are a defensive screening unit and that really is it, though they can do it well. They don't work well with typhus and building synergy between the two is so difficult you might as well just not bother. Unless you need to escort something up field, like a blight hauler, the two honestly should never be in range of each other.
Khornate25 wrote: So Deathshroud would be a better choice than Blightlords ? I'll be damn !
What gave you that impression? At 75 ppm for the cheapest loadout vs 45 for the cheapest blightlord loadout, with the same durability per model, I don't know why you'd deepstrike them. They are a little more damaging in melee (a lot more vs multiwound targets), but they have no shooting out of deepstrike.
Unless you are putting them in a landraider with an HQ unit or using warp speed on them, they are generally inferior to our normal terminators.
That part about little damage in meele is huge lie there dude.
10 attacks sure may not wreck horde, but 4D6 auto hits with S3 plague weapon can sure melt crapton of conscripts. And yes you can shoot in CC in your turn. Yes 4D6 not 3D6 - champion actually got 2 gauntlets.
Truth about Deathshroud is they are pretty deadly - once they get into CC - that is not that easy part, but super slow and not durable enough to justify so high price.
Hopefully soon FAQ that they made typo and it's 3 wounds each then we can talk.
IMHO the price is still too high. The rules for these models could be nice but they are at least 15 points overpriced because you either risk a lot or struggle to deliver them and they even have Skornergy with the primarch they are supposed to protect if such protection is supposed to happen for more than 1 turn.
Now that I think about it, the Death Guard has its dose of Skornergy. Like Typhus and Poxwalkers.
Is pretty ironic. I find in the Death Guard part of the appeal of Cryx, but they went full Skorne with some of the units.
Hopefully soon FAQ that they made typo and it's 3 wounds each then we can talk.
IMHO the price is still too high. The rules for these models could be nice but they are at least 15 points overpriced because you either risk a lot or struggle to deliver them and they even have Skornergy with the primarch they are supposed to protect if such protection is supposed to happen for more than 1 turn.
Now that I think about it, the Death Guard has its dose of Skornergy. Like Typhus and Poxwalkers.
Is pretty ironic. I find in the Death Guard part of the appeal of Cryx, but they went full Skorne with some of the units.
Ouch. I actually just recently got rid of my Skorne because it was just not working for me. Le sigh. I get it though. It has been the main issue I have had listbuilding for Death Guard - in that I can't make strategies that support one another. I want a diverse list that won't get rolled... which means I am probably playing the wrong faction anyhow and should grab Imperial Soup or something!
On an aside, tossing around lists and trying to make something that won't die instantly, but isn't maxed out so much that I don't want to play/paint it.
How does this look?
HQ:
Typhus
[175]
Necrosius
[120]
Elites:
Noxious Blightbringer
Plasma Pistol, Bell
[70]
Why would you want multiple? For the grenade? The grenade ability is a gimmick, it doubles a single character's grenades once. It's not worth using for that. Nor is the plague sprayer so good you should spam him. Take him for the ability to mess up charges, everything else is bonus.
Probably because most people are going to try for blight bombardment + veterans of the long war + chaos lord for grenades with rerolls to hit, 2 damage base and mortal wounds on a 5+.
Not to mention that their souped up flamers are great against flyers and other stuff that's usually hard to deal with.
But again, foulspawn does nothing to benefit blight bombardment. He literally can never improve that stratagem at all. Putrifier can, but there is still no reason to run more than.
Anyways I've actually been list tinkering a bit, thinking something like this
Spoiler:
LoW: morty
Nurgle battalion detachment:
HQ: renegade CSM nurgle bike or jump pack sorcerer
Epidermis
Troops: 2 x 10 poxwalkers
1x9 plague marines, with double knives and 2 flails
Elite: 1 putrifier
Transport: rhino
DG battalion detachment
HQ: chaos lord
Chaos lord in terminator armor
Troops: 3x10 autogun and heavy stubber cultists
Elite: Tallyman
Heavy support: 3 blightcrawlers
Poxwalkers screen the backfield with blightcrawlers and the lord+tallyman, cultists grab objectives, everything else runs up the field. If I'm real careful with wargear I think I might be able to grab a fleshmower drone as well. Or if I rearrange things into a spearhead and a battalion and cut the terminator lord.
SilverAlien wrote: But again, foulspawn does nothing to benefit blight bombardment. He literally can never improve that stratagem at all. Putrifier can, but there is still no reason to run more than.
Anyways I've actually been list tinkering a bit, thinking something like this
Spoiler:
LoW: morty
Nurgle battalion detachment:
HQ: renegade CSM nurgle bike or jump pack sorcerer
Epidermis
Troops: 2 x 10 poxwalkers
1x9 plague marines, with double knives and 2 flails
Elite: 1 putrifier
Transport: rhino
DG battalion detachment
HQ: chaos lord
Chaos lord in terminator armor
Troops: 3x10 autogun and heavy stubber cultists
Elite: Tallyman
Heavy support: 3 blightcrawlers
Poxwalkers screen the backfield with blightcrawlers and the lord+tallyman, cultists grab objectives, everything else runs up the field. If I'm real careful with wargear I think I might be able to grab a fleshmower drone as well. Or if I rearrange things into a spearhead and a battalion and cut the terminator lord.
You mean other than launching 3d6 blight grenade shots from the footprint of a single plague marine? That's a fairly significant increase in output.
SilverAlien wrote: The foulspawn's grenade thing can only benefit characters. It does not, in anyway, work with blight bombardment.
It doesn't have to? Blight bombardment doesn't make the grenades better, it just let's every plague marine throw one. The characters can already throw one.
Foulspawn's 'grenade thing' just adds 3d6 more to the mix and it does benefit from biologus' buff and veterans of the long war.
Point is, foulspawns add a lot of grenades to your big rain of grenades for very little extra foot print and they got that wonderful flamer thing to boot.
Which is helpful for overkill or making up for a few lost plague marines when you finally do your blight bombardment.
I'm not saying it's always the optimal choice but there's worse things to spend your points on than an extra foulspawn. If you do get multiples, they'll pull their weight. It's not wasted space.
It's a one turn ability that adds 1d6 grenade shots. That's absolutely trivial. The plague sprayer is better but still kinda iffy considering it's a 9" anti tank/MC weapon. It's mainly that support ability you take him for.
No it's not just support ability. He cannot be targeted unless by some assassin so he can freely move up behind your whatever you have in front lol. And whatever gets in range - and he can shoot after moving aswell - it gets toasted. He got potential to turn around game with some good Sprey 'n Pray .
Support ability is just addition , though very nice one.
77 points is joke for guy who can by 2 ways turn game around - either by changing fighting order in CC or by wiping some custodes unit with good shooting phase.
In fact I will go even further - I bet many players who use fliers - will get surprised by this dude. When they fly above your units and land near this guy - they may not expect how he can put down even most resillient flying units - and he doesn't give a gak about -1 to hit.
Tbh, I am approximately zero percent impressed with the elites choices (characters, that is) except for the Tallyman (amazing). The blightspawn looks ok on paper until you realize that once you're in range, they can usually assault the squad protecting you and consolidate into him.
The blightbringer letting you advance faster is ok but not gamebreaking. The surgeon is nice but I'd rather have necrosius is most situations. And the putrifier....eh
I tried to build a list incorporating what I wanted into 2000 points and ended up jettisoning all of the elite characters. Lords are a requirement for a battleforged army. So, we bring them because we have to, and some are good. But every time I think that for the cost of an elite character, I can bring 4 more plague marines, it just doesn’t make sense, unless the buff is they bring is so good it’s the keystone to a big part of my army’s strategy.
But let’s break it down. If we are going shooty, which was the first list I tried to build. Then we have the plague crawlers. And we also want plague marines supported by a blight hauler in the mid field shooting blight launchers and plasma guns. What’s the key buff for such an army? It’s the reroll 1 to hit provided by a lord, a daemon prince. Its none of the buffs from the elite characters.
My second list was trying to incorporate Mortarion. So, it was an assault based army (because by the time you finish having other units built around supporting Mortarion, your list is an assault one already). And again, none of the buffs provided by the elite characters were any key buffs that was needed for such an army. Mortarion’s buffs alone were all I needed already. He has archcontaminator and he gives reroll 1s to hit. None of the elite characters can keep up with the assault elements I was putting into the list to support Mortarion anyway. I had stuff like bloat drones, plague drones, a flying daemon prince all flying at least 10 inches. And Mortarion himself flies 12 inches. Trying to stuff in an elite character would have just held the entire assault element back. And if it wasn’t in that assault group, then it wasn’t key to the list’s strategy either.
And every time I wanted to keep an elite character in, I would think to myself, if I take him out, I can add 4 more plague marines… Deathguard already doesn’t have that many bodies in the army, unless you are going for pox walker spam. So, having even fewer bodies at the cost of adding more elite characters which are not even a requirement for a battleforged army just didn’t make sense. So, in the end I ditched all of them. The only elite character I might consider would be the one that buffs the damage and grenades by 1. which is the Biologus, but even then, only if you really had the points to spare. I am finding that to squeeze in the stuff I want is a real challenge.
In fairness part of the issue is you are apparently running lots of plague marines, who eat up points. You need some poxwalkers or cultists to fill out your army and open up other options. Plague marines are a sometimes snack, compared to the solid filling meal that are our cheap horde units.
mario88826 wrote: No it's not just support ability. He cannot be targeted unless by some assassin so he can freely move up behind your whatever you have in front lol. And whatever gets in range - and he can shoot after moving aswell - it gets toasted. He got potential to turn around game with some good Sprey 'n Pray
It's a 9 inch range weapon made for killing elites and vehicles. It's great in the same way gifts of chaos is great at sniping enemy characters. I mean, it's 4-6 mortal wounds!
I can see the value in using it as back field defender, where deepstriking terminators and the like will pop up exposed. It can even be good for deterring flyers. But it's not something you spam and ram down the enemy's throat. I just can't see that working out unless your meta leans towards all primaris armies or something similar.
Daemon prince of Nurgle with Fugris Helm. (no wings)
Typhus (deep strike into midfield with the blightlords, provide poxwalker buff, psyker, and good at fighting).
3 squads of 5 plague marines. double blight launchers. Champ with plasma gun. Just 1 special melee weapon, like either a flail or an axe. The rest are just plague marines with bolters. This 15 marines don't even add up to 450 points. (each sqaud is less than 150 points).
1 squad of 20 paoxwalkers (synergy with Typhus, will provide bubble wrap for my heavy support tanks at first, and then march up the board).
1 squad of 10 poxwalkers.
5 blightlord terminators with combi plasma and axes (deep strike in with Typhus).
1 Blight Hauler - provide cover save aura for the 3 squads of plague marines, and some additional shooting.
1 Feotid bloat drone with heavy blight launcher - with the heavy support, and to tie up any melee cc that gets too close to them.
3 plagueburst crawlers - heavy support shooty tanks.
Total - 2000 points.
As you can see, it has lots of shooting. The idea is to own the mid field with the 3 plague marine squads, the 20 pox walkers, the daemon prince, typhus and the blightlords. But at the same time, I have 18 blight launcher shots, 16 plasma gun shots, and the rest of the shooting from the blight hauler and plague burst crawlers every turn as well. So, its definitely a shooty list.
Focus too much on my shooting, and eventually, Typhus and the pox walkers will make their way up the board and then you get 40 str 5 hits plus happening in CC. (Blightlords can fight too with their axes).
So, I simply couldn't make any room for elite characters, and personally, I didn't really see a need for them. The 3 squads of plagues were there to own the midfield and shoot, not there to really fight. Same for the blightlords. I needed the reroll 1 to hit aura, and arch contaminator aura more than any other aura.
BTW, if I take Typhus, I can still make my Daemon prince the warlord and bring archcontaminator right? There isn't any rule that a special characeter must be the warlord right?
BTW, if I take Typhus, I can still make my Daemon prince the world lord and bring archcontaminator right? There isn't any rule that a special characeter must be the warlord right?
There's no such rule. Not even for Mortarion, and he's a frickin Primarch.
Are the Death Guard Daemons, like the Crawler, drones etc, considered to be "Nurgle Daemons?
Im asking because of the auras and buffs provided by for example The herald of nurgle and the tally rule of Epidemius.
Kryddbov wrote: Are the Death Guard Daemons, like the Crawler, drones etc, considered to be "Nurgle Daemons?
Im asking because of the auras and buffs provided by for example The herald of nurgle and the tally rule of Epidemius.
They have the nurgle, daemon and daemon engine keywords.
So, one advantage of blightlord terminators is that there is no weapon really built to kill them well. Overcharged plasma, which works wonders for killing normal terminators, really falls apart against blightlords. It doesn't double out our toughness, the AP is mostly lost, and 2 damage isn't nearly as amazing when each wound can be saved independently on a 2w model.
Personally I wasn't that impressed with them given they weren't the double firing warptime alpha strike terminators I've come to love in my vanilla CSM army, but blightlord terminators will stick around multiple rounds which evens things out a bit.
Kryddbov wrote: Are the Death Guard Daemons, like the Crawler, drones etc, considered to be "Nurgle Daemons?
Im asking because of the auras and buffs provided by for example The herald of nurgle and the tally rule of Epidemius.
Epidemius armies are pretty awesome, not sure about in the tournament scene, but I have been running an army that is all units that have NURGLE and DAEMON. Mostly daemon engines, a huge PB blob, oblits and DPs. Bloat drones get a nice buff, as their guns are strength user.
Epidemius seems to be a real boon for Nurgle based armies. I have been toying around with various lists including him. I am going to try this list out this weekend.
So, I've been thinking about a 2k point list to use for my DG.
I've got the core of my list that I'll build the rest of the army around:
- 4 Plagueburst Crawlers with Entropy Cannons and Heavy Sluggers (might swap the Entropy Cannons of one of them for Plaguespitters for some extra close-quarters defense)
- Chaos Lord of Nurgle
- Poxwalker bubblewrap (not sure yet how many I'm going to need to make the Crawlers charge-proof).
I'm taking 4 Crawlers because I'm completely in love with the model and it also matches exactly how I personally imagine the Death Guard to fight (advancing forward while a storm of artillery shells falls on the enemy backline so the rest of the army can deal the finishing blow when hey get in position). The plan is to set them up as a tight group or line with the Chaos Lord in the middle for the reroll 1s to hit and then set up the poxwalkers around them to deter deep strike charges.
I've been wondering what else to use though. I was thinking of using Mortarion and two Bloatdrones with Fleshmowers as a kind of vanguard to force my opponent to either focus fire on Morty and the drones and with that leaving my Crawlers free to kill everything from afar or focus the Crawlers and let Morty smash everything in CC. I can see this working in theory but also backfire spectacularly if my opponent has the firepower to deal with both at the same time (such as the Guilliman between a bunch of Lascannon- tanks and Hellblasters list I've recently been owned by). Besides that, I'm going to need some extra protection for the Crawlers against deepstrikers (was thinking about Blightlords. I could use these both to guard the Crawlers if my opponent has powerful deepstrikers or deepstrike them to support Mortarion if he doesn't). Then fill up to 2k points with Plague Marines and maybe a Blightbringer/ Foul Blightspawn/ Putrifier/ Plaguecaster.
So... good idea? Bad idea? Any tips or suggestions? I'm open to change up a lot of the list although I'd very much like to keep the 4 Crawler core if at all possible. Thanks!
I can't decide between taking two Bloat Drones which will benefit from Arch-Contaminator or two Helbrutes which will be able to take better advantage of the Legion Trait.
Qlanth wrote: I'm trying to make a list where I take Mortarion.
I can't decide between taking two Bloat Drones which will benefit from Arch-Contaminator or two Helbrutes which will be able to take better advantage of the Legion Trait.
Qlanth wrote: I'm trying to make a list where I take Mortarion.
I can't decide between taking two Bloat Drones which will benefit from Arch-Contaminator or two Helbrutes which will be able to take better advantage of the Legion Trait.
Which would you rather bring?
Brute tends to do more damage on both range and in CC , even when we count fleshmower drone.
They also have superior BS/WS and on top of that actually benefit from legion. That would make them good if not ... fact that they are super squishy, no FNP, no Invu , low wound count compared to other toys DG use.
Helbrute is highly likely to go down once he get hit by 2 lascannon shoots.
That being said - helbrute may actually be thing for simple reason - if it's deadly but somewhat squishy - your opponent may aim at it instead of Mortarion. Well that is something.
This is relevant - as most of the time they ignored Bloat drones - for 2 reasons - they are bitch to kill, very durable. And second is that they don't really punch that super hard regardless of setup.
Drones like Morty, but noone will target them as long as Mortarion is alive.
It's generally okay to take ~~2 drones and 1 helbrute - if you have it. After all you won't trash all your minis that are not best in slot and buy new ones every time meta changes.
Brute is generally okay - just give him scourge and some shooty weapon. Doing both decent - and don't let anyone tell it's any other way. It can move and shoot heavy without penalty and in CC 7 powerful attacks.
Then again it's not top tier for our army.
Btw I was thinking about Myphitic Haulers - and found some powerful synergy - they may come in group and so they all benefit from buffs as a unit. That means if there is 3 of them - if you cast miasma on them - they all benefit.
What is more important if you have and cast prescience on them - they hit 3x multimelta 3x missile launcher 3x whatever they spit - at 2+ possibly rerolling 1's from Prince.
So they may be best possible targets for prescience in your entire army.
Insanely hard to remove with miasma - especially in CC -2 to Hit can ruin even dudes like Guilliman who can't reroll 2's and 3's.
I am still more than a little agitated that, still, the "best" way to play a chaos force is with as few marines as possible.
I'm not sold on the Plague Surgeon though. Only a 3" bubble seems really meh.
I'm thinking of a list currently that has a Lord of Contagion, Plaguecaster, three squads of 7 Plague Marines (two shooty with either Blight Launchers or Plasma, one with melee weapons, probably in a Rhino), two Myphitic Blight-Haulers, two Plagueburst Crawlers, a bunch of heroes (Blightbringer, Biologus Putrifier, Tallyman?) and a unit of Deathshroud Terminators (or maybe Blightlords, not sure which is better).
It would seem to me the answer to many peoples problems is the Sorcerer on Palanquin. It counts as a Daemon, can be hidden, and per RAW uses the Heretic Astartes discipline. Easy access to Warptime and Prescience, buffable by heralds and epidemius, and can hang with a Lord behind your lines for safety.
This may very well change later with a FAQ, but until then...
Wayniac wrote: I am still more than a little agitated that, still, the "best" way to play a chaos force is with as few marines as possible.
I'm not sold on the Plague Surgeon though. Only a 3" bubble seems really meh.
I'm thinking of a list currently that has a Lord of Contagion, Plaguecaster, three squads of 7 Plague Marines (two shooty with either Blight Launchers or Plasma, one with melee weapons, probably in a Rhino), two Myphitic Blight-Haulers, two Plagueburst Crawlers, a bunch of heroes (Blightbringer, Biologus Putrifier, Tallyman?) and a unit of Deathshroud Terminators (or maybe Blightlords, not sure which is better).
You will struggle hard to fit all that into 2k. I tried, had to cut down a lot.
And you are not alone - I hate that I am stuck with only a single Plague Marine squad in my current list I am trying to build. How disappointing that Death Guard are not much on their core element.
Wayniac wrote: I am still more than a little agitated that, still, the "best" way to play a chaos force is with as few marines as possible.
I'm not sold on the Plague Surgeon though. Only a 3" bubble seems really meh.
I'm thinking of a list currently that has a Lord of Contagion, Plaguecaster, three squads of 7 Plague Marines (two shooty with either Blight Launchers or Plasma, one with melee weapons, probably in a Rhino), two Myphitic Blight-Haulers, two Plagueburst Crawlers, a bunch of heroes (Blightbringer, Biologus Putrifier, Tallyman?) and a unit of Deathshroud Terminators (or maybe Blightlords, not sure which is better).
You will struggle hard to fit all that into 2k. I tried, had to cut down a lot.
And you are not alone - I hate that I am stuck with only a single Plague Marine squad in my current list I am trying to build. How disappointing that Death Guard are not much on their core element.
Well you could join people like whinning on every opportunity that our core troop units are pretty damn expensive.
Plague Marines sure have tons of buffs for them, nice options - like noone else in 40k really. I admit that completely - noone even comes close to amount of synergy and options those dudes have. but they are still 19 points per model - so 5 naked guys with no special stuff are 95points. That ain't cheap at all. And once you pump points into them they start to do job but at ridiculous price.
As it stands now - cultists are best bet - they cost 4 points so you pay your troop tax very easily.
And that is necessary as we all our HQ are very expensive - if you take battalion and idk Outrider - you need 3 HQ and 3 Troop - not mentioning fast attacks but you want them hehe. That is crapton of points.
If you have expensive HQ and expensive troops - that is VERY BAD - therefore since we can't get cheap troops - we will either have to rely on Nurgle Demon Detachment troops - like wonderful plaguebearers or go without troops completely.
And i'm leaning toward dropping troops and stick with some Outrider + Vanguard + Morty.
To sum up if we want our famous plague marines and HQ for battalion it's around 3x5 dudes (with stuff) is 3x ~~ 125 points + Daemon Prince , Typhus . We suddenly pay around 700 points lol. Sure Daemon Prince and Typhus are not pushovers but still our best choices from HQ - since Lord of Contagion is less , but he is leagues above Typhus. Malignant dude aint better caster than typhus and Typhus just brings tons of other stuff to table.
Yeah you can make it cheaper - like use normal Lord / cultists ... but then again - does it even have to be DG army in first place or you can take such detachment as anyone else !?
One tactic I did like a lot was using pox walkers to screen for the plague marines. Buff the hell out of them (-1 to hit, make them T5) and then make a giant squad of plague marines untargetable with cloud of flies. Really helps to offset the high cost of the model.
But yeah, in general it's probably appropriately costed - I just can't bring myself to take a lot of them.
luke1705 wrote: One tactic I did like a lot was using pox walkers to screen for the plague marines. Buff the hell out of them (-1 to hit, make them T5) and then make a giant squad of plague marines untargetable with cloud of flies. Really helps to offset the high cost of the model.
But yeah, in general it's probably appropriately costed - I just can't bring myself to take a lot of them.
Don't you need typhus for the T5? How can you footslog typhus?
Pandabeer wrote: So, I've been thinking about a 2k point list to use for my DG.
I've got the core of my list that I'll build the rest of the army around:
- 4 Plagueburst Crawlers with Entropy Cannons and Heavy Sluggers (might swap the Entropy Cannons of one of them for Plaguespitters for some extra close-quarters defense)
- Chaos Lord of Nurgle
- Poxwalker bubblewrap (not sure yet how many I'm going to need to make the Crawlers charge-proof).
I'm taking 4 Crawlers because I'm completely in love with the model and it also matches exactly how I personally imagine the Death Guard to fight (advancing forward while a storm of artillery shells falls on the enemy backline so the rest of the army can deal the finishing blow when hey get in position). The plan is to set them up as a tight group or line with the Chaos Lord in the middle for the reroll 1s to hit and then set up the poxwalkers around them to deter deep strike charges.
I've been wondering what else to use though. I was thinking of using Mortarion and two Bloatdrones with Fleshmowers as a kind of vanguard to force my opponent to either focus fire on Morty and the drones and with that leaving my Crawlers free to kill everything from afar or focus the Crawlers and let Morty smash everything in CC. I can see this working in theory but also backfire spectacularly if my opponent has the firepower to deal with both at the same time (such as the Guilliman between a bunch of Lascannon- tanks and Hellblasters list I've recently been owned by). Besides that, I'm going to need some extra protection for the Crawlers against deepstrikers (was thinking about Blightlords. I could use these both to guard the Crawlers if my opponent has powerful deepstrikers or deepstrike them to support Mortarion if he doesn't). Then fill up to 2k points with Plague Marines and maybe a Blightbringer/ Foul Blightspawn/ Putrifier/ Plaguecaster.
So... good idea? Bad idea? Any tips or suggestions? I'm open to change up a lot of the list although I'd very much like to keep the 4 Crawler core if at all possible. Thanks!
I would say go for it, but don't worry so much about your plague crawlers being shot at. With 12 wounds, T8, and a 5++ save. and then DR on top of that I would WANT my enemy to shoot at my plague crawlers. They are ridiculously tough. Seriously, I think they are tougher than even land raiders. The only thing is I wouldn't want melee to charge them to tie them up in combat. Otherwise, I would actually be happy if my opponent chose to shoot a 156 point plague crawler over trying to kill say Mortarion.
Ive been re thinking the use of a heldrake in a csm detach. between it and morty and epidemius and a chaos sorc morty and heldrake will be owning all horde lists.
Heldrake with bale flamer build and morty are a crazy kill duo.
S6 baleflamer with enemies -1T and morty for rerolls is just gross!
COLD CASH wrote: Ive been re thinking the use of a heldrake in a csm detach. between it and morty and epidemius and a chaos sorc morty and heldrake will be owning all horde lists.
Heldrake with bale flamer build and morty are a crazy kill duo.
S6 baleflamer with enemies -1T and morty for rerolls is just gross!
I didn't think Morty could buff a Heldrake as it can't be taken in a Death Guard detachment. I don't have my DG codex in front of me right now but isn't Morty's reroll ability specific to Death Guard?
That being said, I still think an allied Heldrake could be a good distraction from Morty, as it could pin multiple big shooting units down and prevent them from throwing shots at Morty, keeping him alive longer.
I'm considering running Morty in a Supreme Command Detachment with Be'lakor and 2 Malefic Lords, along with either a bunch of Nurgle Daemons or mobile Death Guard (lots of Foetid Drones and/or Plague Marines in Rhinos, perhaps some Myphitic Haulers as well). Be'lakor gives access to the Dark Hereticus discipline in addition to buffing Daemons (good for bloat drones), plus he can wreck face in CC. Not sure there's much of a downside to running Morty in a non-DG detachment except that he won't be the Warlord, but you could run a DP with the Suppurating Plate and take Arch Contaminator instead.
Actually, I was wondering about having Mortarion as a huge distraction carnefex. He is a 470 wrecking ball, and once he cast that pestilence spell on himself, he is not easy to hit. Rather than having to spend a ton of points getting him a Deathshroud bodyguard, why not just have him serve as a firemagnet. Opponent knows how deadly he is, so will spend tons of effort trying to kill him. In the meantime, the rest of the army is free from shooting.
luke1705 wrote: One tactic I did like a lot was using pox walkers to screen for the plague marines. Buff the hell out of them (-1 to hit, make them T5) and then make a giant squad of plague marines untargetable with cloud of flies. Really helps to offset the high cost of the model.
But yeah, in general it's probably appropriately costed - I just can't bring myself to take a lot of them.
Don't you need typhus for the T5? How can you footslog typhus?
You do? But he can walk, albeit not quite as fast as them....I'm not sure I understand the question
Eldenfirefly wrote: Actually, I was wondering about having Mortarion as a huge distraction carnefex. He is a 470 wrecking ball, and once he cast that pestilence spell on himself, he is not easy to hit. Rather than having to spend a ton of points getting him a Deathshroud bodyguard, why not just have him serve as a firemagnet. Opponent knows how deadly he is, so will spend tons of effort trying to kill him. In the meantime, the rest of the army is free from shooting.
That is insanely expensive fire magnet. But yeah , as long as you can strike very fast.
What i'm trying to say : fast advancing units like drones/haulers , rhinos/land raiders + dropping termies. No slow units - except for some objective grabbing / artillery.
In that case if you drop stuff right on his face and mortarion is closing in - he needs to actually decide what to shoot. Our army is durable enough to easily say that even most hardcore gunline can't bust both Mortarion, his flying retinue and blightlords that did deepstrike.
And that is what i will be doing.
A bit unfluffy sadly - but I will make fast attack/deep strike .
Why ? Because actually our best units have ability to strike fast - Blightlords/Drones/Haulers/PBC (can shoot asap).
Also I can't stop laughing at this whole poxwalker buffing/protection. Guess what ? You still have tons of stuff on board that can be targeted this way or another - and pox are least problematic one.
If DG player is casting miasma/other buffs on pox - he is not casting them on more important stuff like Mortarion etc.
This is really laughable to even protect stupid cannon fodder. Cannon fodder is supposed to take damn fire and die for more important units. If I will make them too tanky - they won't take fire = they are not doing thier job, because something else gets nuked.
And where is my miasma again ? On pox oh screw me.
Even if you want to move big unit of Plague Marines with cloud of flies - you don't need pox screening - just have your Morty/Drones move in front.
Some people hide drones behind buildings to avoid alpha striking - but honestly that thing is obnoxiously resillient - let them shoot it. At least someone else is not eating damage.
Same with PBC - no frigging way I will hide one - that thing is supposed to magnetize all missiles , lascannons and what not. It's damn cheap and absurdaly tanky. If they shoot it - they play to your strategy.
In fact PBC will stand in front (unless my opponent is some assault army - Nids/Orks etc).
Last thing - if you want to field Morty - you gotta build you army in way that it can finish deploy first. Aka elite/transport. You really want to go first - and hopefully cast this miasma before shooting starts. Having miasma on Morty / not having - can decide outcome of entire game against gunline.
My point is that there isn't any way to prevent the opponent from not shooting him, since he has more than 10 wounds, so you can't find him behind normal units. And deathshroud terminators are just insanely expensive. So, just assume he will attract all enemy ranged fire and plan your army based on that.
He may be expensive but he is "only" 470 points. That still leaves you with 1,530 points of army that will be relatively unmolested by any ranged fire because he is focusing all of it on Mortarion.
Kryddbov wrote: Are the Death Guard Daemons, like the Crawler, drones etc, considered to be "Nurgle Daemons?
Im asking because of the auras and buffs provided by for example The herald of nurgle and the tally rule of Epidemius.
They have the nurgle, daemon and daemon engine keywords.
So thats a yes?
The reason this is confusing me is that the Nurgle Daemons have the Nurgle and Daemon Faction keywords whilst the Daemon engines dont have the Daemon word in the faction keywords.
How are people feeling about running a gimmicky list that uses Morale bombing? I've got a Leviathan Dreadnought, and I've been thinking about using the Butcher Cannon Arrays to set up some dirty morale checks.
Butcher Cannons for -2 Ld(-3 because something needs to die to trigger)
Blightbringer's aura for -1 Ld Icon of Despair on Plague Marines, palling around with the Blightbringer for another -1, once they're in melee. Using a Rhino to rush up the board to get in the range of abilities.
A gimmick that obviously wouldn't work on some armies, other than forcing Orks or Guardsman to smack/blam themselves. Just triggering the effect and having the combo go off is -5 Ld to whatever poor sods are hit by it. I think it could be a highly effective way to clear out Elite armies, like Grey Knights or Terminator based armies, as each model that flees is all the more expensive. Or, it forces the burning of CP to auto pass morale, which is less stratagems and rerolls coming in my direction.
Thoughts and opinions? I haven't gotten to try out the idea just yet, and feel that the little combo has enough bite outside of using the gimmick, as a Leviathan is deadly already.
Latest attempt - really need feedback! I am in the buying phase, so I would like to keep superfluous purchases down. Tight budget after I went a bit mad buying AdMech.
Semi-Competitive Death Guard
Supreme Command
HQ:
Nurgle Herald
Fleshy Abundance
[70]
Sorcerer
Force Axe & Plasma Pistol, Warptime/Prescience
[113]
Malefic Lord
Warp Flux, Creeping Terror
[30]
Lord of War:
Mortarion
[470]
[683]
HQ:
Typhus
[175]
Necrosius
[120]
Elites:
Noxious Blightbringer
Plasma Pistol, Bell
[70]
Why not run a flying nurgle daemon Prince with the arch contaminator trait? Doesn't that pair a lot better with bloat drones? Can't pick out the price means they have to shoot the drones if closer... Saves a ton of points.
Unless the plan is to play Mortiarion just because and have him be the center of the army.
luke1705 wrote: One tactic I did like a lot was using pox walkers to screen for the plague marines. Buff the hell out of them (-1 to hit, make them T5) and then make a giant squad of plague marines untargetable with cloud of flies. Really helps to offset the high cost of the model.
But yeah, in general it's probably appropriately costed - I just can't bring myself to take a lot of them.
Don't you need typhus for the T5? How can you footslog typhus?
You do? But he can walk, albeit not quite as fast as them....I'm not sure I understand the question
Sorry - I mean I am afraid is not viable to footslog Typhus. Maybe is better to just advance the walkers. If they are slaughtered they caught bullets for your marines, if they are in reach, teleport Typhus and cast a buff for a sudden dangerous horde. Nonetheless, this means that Typus is underused in order to support the Walkers.
What do you guys think about a list like this? The Drones and PBCs form the core of the army and punish the opponent for focusing on Mortarion, with a small amount of cultists and Plague Marines to pay troop tax and bubble wrap.
luke1705 wrote: One tactic I did like a lot was using pox walkers to screen for the plague marines. Buff the hell out of them (-1 to hit, make them T5) and then make a giant squad of plague marines untargetable with cloud of flies. Really helps to offset the high cost of the model.
But yeah, in general it's probably appropriately costed - I just can't bring myself to take a lot of them.
Don't you need typhus for the T5? How can you footslog typhus?
You do? But he can walk, albeit not quite as fast as them....I'm not sure I understand the question
Sorry - I mean I am afraid is not viable to footslog Typhus.
Maybe is better to just advance the walkers. If they are slaughtered they caught bullets for your marines, if they are in reach, teleport Typhus and cast a buff for a sudden dangerous horde.
Nonetheless, this means that Typus is underused in order to support the Walkers.
Glad there are some more sane people around bro.
Tons of people want to shame walk thier 175 points typhus from deployment zone to enemy gunline with poxwalkers.
They pretend he ain't moving 4" + halved D6lol at best. That is not even funny and cannot be called tactic .
Pox are there to take bullets like Kayianwang said , if you think they will wreck your opponent ... rethink it.
COLD CASH wrote: Ive been re thinking the use of a heldrake in a csm detach. between it and morty and epidemius and a chaos sorc morty and heldrake will be owning all horde lists.
Heldrake with bale flamer build and morty are a crazy kill duo.
S6 baleflamer with enemies -1T and morty for rerolls is just gross!
I didn't think Morty could buff a Heldrake as it can't be taken in a Death Guard detachment. I don't have my DG codex in front of me right now but isn't Morty's reroll ability specific to Death Guard?
That being said, I still think an allied Heldrake could be a good distraction from Morty, as it could pin multiple big shooting units down and prevent them from throwing shots at Morty, keeping him alive longer.
I'm considering running Morty in a Supreme Command Detachment with Be'lakor and 2 Malefic Lords, along with either a bunch of Nurgle Daemons or mobile Death Guard (lots of Foetid Drones and/or Plague Marines in Rhinos, perhaps some Myphitic Haulers as well). Be'lakor gives access to the Dark Hereticus discipline in addition to buffing Daemons (good for bloat drones), plus he can wreck face in CC. Not sure there's much of a downside to running Morty in a non-DG detachment except that he won't be the Warlord, but you could run a DP with the Suppurating Plate and take Arch Contaminator instead.
yep your right no rerolls but the -1T still applies!! so its still a good combo!!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Latest attempt - really need feedback! I am in the buying phase, so I would like to keep superfluous purchases down. Tight budget after I went a bit mad buying AdMech.
Semi-Competitive Death Guard
Supreme Command
HQ:
Nurgle Herald
Fleshy Abundance
[70]
Sorcerer
Force Axe & Plasma Pistol, Warptime/Prescience
[113]
Malefic Lord
Warp Flux, Creeping Terror
[30]
Lord of War:
Mortarion
[470]
[683]
HQ:
Typhus
[175]
Necrosius
[120]
Elites:
Noxious Blightbringer
Plasma Pistol, Bell
[70]
I'm just going to point out there is no reason to run 7 plague marines to a squad. I know it's a fluff thing but it's a tactic thread so I'm going to point it out in case someone convinced themselves it adds durability to the unit or is in some way a strong choice.
SilverAlien wrote: I'm just going to point out there is no reason to run 7 plague marines to a squad. I know it's a fluff thing but it's a tactic thread so I'm going to point it out in case someone convinced themselves it adds durability to the unit or is in some way a strong choice.
For shooty unit it's pointless to go beyond 5. For CC actually I would only take squad of ~~ 8 - 9 dudes. Since before going into CC they will throw some grenade love buffed by biologus.
If you think it's not viable to have typhus escort the poxwalkers, that means that you're not taking enough poxwalkers. Also, typhus making your squad of 6 point dudes T5 with the spell is not to be underestimated. Makes bolters wound you on 5's. That's a big deal.
The poxwalkers can be a little limited by typhus' movement value but it's absolutely worth increasing their resilience by that much.
luke1705 wrote: If you think it's not viable to have typhus escort the poxwalkers, that means that you're not taking enough poxwalkers. Also, typhus making your squad of 6 point dudes T5 with the spell is not to be underestimated. Makes bolters wound you on 5's. That's a big deal.
The poxwalkers can be a little limited by typhus' movement value but it's absolutely worth increasing their resilience by that much.
I just played a game against Death Guard a little bit ago with my Guard. I find it to be silly to try and walk Typhus up the board against even a non-optimized Guard army. T5 is essentially worthless against Guard. The Poxwalkers, and everything else in the army got shredded before it got there since it all walked (besides the 3 Drones I focused fire on first).
I would have been much more scared if Typhus and a group of Terminators teleported behind, or close to my lines and began shooting/chopping. Doing that, they will either draw fire off the rest of your army allowing the Poxwalkers a chance to get into melee and multiply. Or, your opponent will ignore Typhus and crew and you can start pulling my squishy dudes into melee, forcing me to waste orders on falling back with the survivors so they can still shoot.
Of the 40 Poxwalkers in my opponents list at 1,500, only 5 made it within 9". Typhus was worthless the whole game because he was walking. The scariest things I have faced as a Guard player against Death Guard have been your Drones and anything that can fly, or move 6" plus a turn.
luke1705 wrote: If you think it's not viable to have typhus escort the poxwalkers, that means that you're not taking enough poxwalkers. Also, typhus making your squad of 6 point dudes T5 with the spell is not to be underestimated. Makes bolters wound you on 5's. That's a big deal.
The poxwalkers can be a little limited by typhus' movement value but it's absolutely worth increasing their resilience by that much.
I just played a game against Death Guard a little bit ago with my Guard. I find it to be silly to try and walk Typhus up the board against even a non-optimized Guard army. T5 is essentially worthless against Guard. The Poxwalkers, and everything else in the army got shredded before it got there since it all walked (besides the 3 Drones I focused fire on first).
I would have been much more scared if Typhus and a group of Terminators teleported behind, or close to my lines and began shooting/chopping. Doing that, they will either draw fire off the rest of your army allowing the Poxwalkers a chance to get into melee and multiply. Or, your opponent will ignore Typhus and crew and you can start pulling my squishy dudes into melee, forcing me to waste orders on falling back with the survivors so they can still shoot.
Of the 40 Poxwalkers in my opponents list at 1,500, only 5 made it within 9". Typhus was worthless the whole game because he was walking. The scariest things I have faced as a Guard player against Death Guard have been your Drones and anything that can fly, or move 6" plus a turn.
How do you even let someone teleport behind you? Your troops cost nothing. You can clutter up your entire line across the breath of the table to leave no space free for deep strikers without incurring much cost.
luke1705 wrote: If you think it's not viable to have typhus escort the poxwalkers, that means that you're not taking enough poxwalkers. Also, typhus making your squad of 6 point dudes T5 with the spell is not to be underestimated. Makes bolters wound you on 5's. That's a big deal.
The poxwalkers can be a little limited by typhus' movement value but it's absolutely worth increasing their resilience by that much.
I just played a game against Death Guard a little bit ago with my Guard. I find it to be silly to try and walk Typhus up the board against even a non-optimized Guard army. T5 is essentially worthless against Guard. The Poxwalkers, and everything else in the army got shredded before it got there since it all walked (besides the 3 Drones I focused fire on first).
I would have been much more scared if Typhus and a group of Terminators teleported behind, or close to my lines and began shooting/chopping. Doing that, they will either draw fire off the rest of your army allowing the Poxwalkers a chance to get into melee and multiply. Or, your opponent will ignore Typhus and crew and you can start pulling my squishy dudes into melee, forcing me to waste orders on falling back with the survivors so they can still shoot.
Of the 40 Poxwalkers in my opponents list at 1,500, only 5 made it within 9". Typhus was worthless the whole game because he was walking. The scariest things I have faced as a Guard player against Death Guard have been your Drones and anything that can fly, or move 6" plus a turn.
Glad we got perspective of shooty army player.
Pox are garbage and slow down Typhus a lot - he should either teleport strike with terminators and support them with spells, his scythe/pistol or get there via Land Raider.
And if we cast miasma and vitality on pox - we are not casting it on units that actually count and can do something more than waste half of game moving in position to maybe pull of charge.
luke1705 wrote: If you think it's not viable to have typhus escort the poxwalkers, that means that you're not taking enough poxwalkers. Also, typhus making your squad of 6 point dudes T5 with the spell is not to be underestimated. Makes bolters wound you on 5's. That's a big deal.
The poxwalkers can be a little limited by typhus' movement value but it's absolutely worth increasing their resilience by that much.
I just played a game against Death Guard a little bit ago with my Guard. I find it to be silly to try and walk Typhus up the board against even a non-optimized Guard army. T5 is essentially worthless against Guard. The Poxwalkers, and everything else in the army got shredded before it got there since it all walked (besides the 3 Drones I focused fire on first).
I would have been much more scared if Typhus and a group of Terminators teleported behind, or close to my lines and began shooting/chopping. Doing that, they will either draw fire off the rest of your army allowing the Poxwalkers a chance to get into melee and multiply. Or, your opponent will ignore Typhus and crew and you can start pulling my squishy dudes into melee, forcing me to waste orders on falling back with the survivors so they can still shoot.
Of the 40 Poxwalkers in my opponents list at 1,500, only 5 made it within 9". Typhus was worthless the whole game because he was walking. The scariest things I have faced as a Guard player against Death Guard have been your Drones and anything that can fly, or move 6" plus a turn.
How do you even let someone teleport behind you? Your troops cost nothing. You can clutter up your entire line across the breath of the table to leave no space free for deep strikers without incurring much cost.
Then teleport in front and start scything down them - suboptimal ? You going to do this anyway if you go by foot. Still better than going there on foot from your deployment zone. At least you will have slight chance to get through them if you start early (i mean conscripts).
BTW : I'm shocked with prices for this week DG models. Compared to recent GW prices - those are relatively cheap.
Especially foul Blightspawn - I must say he is WAY cheaper than primaris apothecary/librarian. That is good sign - rest elite could be priced same. And it may not be stupid to take 2 of those guys.
Typhus also priced okay - he is slightly more than Primaris Captain - I will take it. Blightlords - completely fine , will take them over deathshroud who need buff.
mario88826 wrote: For shooty unit it's pointless to go beyond 5. For CC actually I would only take squad of ~~ 8 - 9 dudes. Since before going into CC they will throw some grenade love buffed by biologus.
Yep, for assault I'd go to 9 with the putrifier in a rhino, 8 if you want to bring something else like a chaos lord. But still wouldn't run them at seven. Little sad for everyone who likes being fluffy.
What do you guys think for melee loadout? I'm running a single squad of 9 down the field in a rhino, I'm currently leaning toward two flails and then double knives for everyone else. The axe is fairly decent, I'm just not sure it's adding that much against the weak and low armor units they normally fight. Maybe a few axes mixed in would be fine. Could be a decent way to round out a list
I just can't get over the idea that plaguemarines mostly have the illusion of resiliency.
Most armies have no problem scything through armour 3+ with a 5+ DI. I feel like sending those expensive plague marines into an assault is lambs to the slaughter. Just waiting to be shot down.
I would suggest epidemius, he makes your list very strong!
I don't doubt that... But until he gets a new model, I just can't. Jeez his model is both hideous and annoying to build. A shame. Maybe, maybe I will test him out but sub out for the new snail dude to counts-as.
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SilverAlien wrote: I'm just going to point out there is no reason to run 7 plague marines to a squad. I know it's a fluff thing but it's a tactic thread so I'm going to point it out in case someone convinced themselves it adds durability to the unit or is in some way a strong choice.
Yea, fluff reason for my list, on top of it being my only squad so I wanted more actual Plague Marines in my DG list.
snottlebocket wrote: I just can't get over the idea that plaguemarines mostly have the illusion of resiliency.
Most armies have no problem scything through armour 3+ with a 5+ DI. I feel like sending those expensive plague marines into an assault is lambs to the slaughter. Just waiting to be shot down.
You got it right Snottlebocket , it's true. And yeah they die like flies , because after all they are still just 1 wound.
But there are ways to actually put them to good use - either in transport or in cover. And in cover they are really nasty to remove with 2+ / 5T and FNP - that is real deal .
And hey you can get cover from blight haulers .
All you need is this magical 2+ and/or 6T with spell - this is MASSIVE improvement against weapons like assault cannon. Like huge improvement.
This or hide them in clouds of flies if you don't want haulers - and other PM units covering your backlines / holding objective.
mario88826 wrote: For shooty unit it's pointless to go beyond 5. For CC actually I would only take squad of ~~ 8 - 9 dudes. Since before going into CC they will throw some grenade love buffed by biologus.
Yep, for assault I'd go to 9 with the putrifier in a rhino, 8 if you want to bring something else like a chaos lord. But still wouldn't run them at seven. Little sad for everyone who likes being fluffy.
What do you guys think for melee loadout? I'm running a single squad of 9 down the field in a rhino, I'm currently leaning toward two flails and then double knives for everyone else. The axe is fairly decent, I'm just not sure it's adding that much against the weak and low armor units they normally fight. Maybe a few axes mixed in would be fine. Could be a decent way to round out a list
This all depends if you really reserve blades spell just for your CC marines. That is crucial part - if you do then 2 knives are enough to wound/mortal wound anyone around , especially with combo of veteran of long war. Stupid knives mortal wound on 5+ - that is crazy.
But normally if I will go CC - I will equip them all with axes - they are VERY good. 5S is like breaking moment where you in worst case wound even land raider on 5+ , solid AP and rerolling wounds is worth it. So it's 2 x flail and rest axes , no flamers - you don't want them at all since you want to shoot grenades.
luke1705 wrote: If you think it's not viable to have typhus escort the poxwalkers, that means that you're not taking enough poxwalkers. Also, typhus making your squad of 6 point dudes T5 with the spell is not to be underestimated. Makes bolters wound you on 5's. That's a big deal.
The poxwalkers can be a little limited by typhus' movement value but it's absolutely worth increasing their resilience by that much.
Of the 40 Poxwalkers in my opponents list at 1,500, only 5 made it within 9". Typhus was worthless the whole game because he was walking. The scariest things I have faced as a Guard player against Death Guard have been your Drones and anything that can fly, or move 6" plus a turn.
40 poxwalkers is not enough, even at 1500. If I'm playing at 2000, I have 60 plus the 70 cultists that will turn into poxwalkers when they die.
So how you you feel about 99 cultists getting within 9"? Since you can kill 31 or so. Oh and I hope you kill that 40 man cultist squad to the man; otherwise I'll get 40 more poxwalkers when they die.
Of course, I'm not going to have EVERY cultist that dies be next to the poxwalkers, and it gets even more true if the opponent focuses the cultists before I get a turn. But that's at -1 to hit for them and that's still a lot of wounds my poxwalkers aren't taking.
I do respect that you're not playing competitively though. And yes, non-competitive Death Guard poses absolutely no threat to non-competitive guard.
Pox are garbage and slow down Typhus a lot - he should either teleport strike with terminators and support them with spells, his scythe/pistol or get there via Land Raider.
Glad you're using the perspective of a self-admitted non-competitive player to justify why a competitive strategy won't work instead of actually addressing the strategy itself
Also this has to be said - anyone justifying the use of a land raider to transport an aura buff model that can also deep strike really needs to re-think what they mean by "competitive tactics". So many things wrong with that idea.
luke1705 wrote: If you think it's not viable to have typhus escort the poxwalkers, that means that you're not taking enough poxwalkers. Also, typhus making your squad of 6 point dudes T5 with the spell is not to be underestimated. Makes bolters wound you on 5's. That's a big deal.
The poxwalkers can be a little limited by typhus' movement value but it's absolutely worth increasing their resilience by that much.
Of the 40 Poxwalkers in my opponents list at 1,500, only 5 made it within 9". Typhus was worthless the whole game because he was walking. The scariest things I have faced as a Guard player against Death Guard have been your Drones and anything that can fly, or move 6" plus a turn.
40 poxwalkers is not enough, even at 1500. If I'm playing at 2000, I have 60 plus the 70 cultists that will turn into poxwalkers when they die.
So how you you feel about 99 cultists getting within 9"? Since you can kill 31 or so. Oh and I hope you kill that 40 man cultist squad to the man; otherwise I'll get 40 more poxwalkers when they die.
Of course, I'm not going to have EVERY cultist that dies be next to the poxwalkers, and it gets even more true if the opponent focuses the cultists before I get a turn. But that's at -1 to hit for them and that's still a lot of wounds my poxwalkers aren't taking.
I do respect that you're not playing competitively though. And yes, non-competitive Death Guard poses absolutely no threat to non-competitive guard.
Pox are garbage and slow down Typhus a lot - he should either teleport strike with terminators and support them with spells, his scythe/pistol or get there via Land Raider.
Glad you're using the perspective of a self-admitted non-competitive player to justify why a competitive strategy won't work instead of actually addressing the strategy itself
Also this has to be said - anyone justifying the use of a land raider to transport an aura buff model that can also deep strike really needs to re-think what they mean by "competitive tactics". So many things wrong with that idea.
Yeah, I understand that my perspective is a bit off since we were just playing a fun game and not being incredibly competitive. We were just testing out lists for our casual weekly 1,500 tournament.
I really don't have an answer to the 60 Poxwalkers plus 70 Cultists right now without facing it a few times. But how many other points are you sinking into that module? I don't use Conscripts, and have a screen of Rough Riders which won't feed Poxwalkers since they aren't infantry. It actually took the unit of Walkers a decent amount of time to chew through the 2 wound Rough Riders while the other squad of zombies got shot to pieces, freeing me up to switch gear and dump everything in range into the second unit of Poxwalkers which was further back.
For now I would just pray that we get one of the deployment types that has us on the short edges of the table instead of the long ones. I can see the validity of Tyhpus walking with the zombies, I was just trying to point out that it doesn't seem to be the best solution in all cases.
I would suggest epidemius, he makes your list very strong!
I don't doubt that... But until he gets a new model, I just can't. Jeez his model is both hideous and annoying to build. A shame. Maybe, maybe I will test him out but sub out for the new snail dude to counts-as.
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SilverAlien wrote: I'm just going to point out there is no reason to run 7 plague marines to a squad. I know it's a fluff thing but it's a tactic thread so I'm going to point it out in case someone convinced themselves it adds durability to the unit or is in some way a strong choice.
Yea, fluff reason for my list, on top of it being my only squad so I wanted more actual Plague Marines in my DG list.
Im using the snail guy as epidemius looks way better and i can use him as near anything similiar. Beast - Palanquin sorcerer - chaos spawn - giant chaos spawn!
I really don't have an answer to the 60 Poxwalkers plus 70 Cultists right now without facing it a few times. But how many other points are you sinking into that module? I don't use Conscripts, and have a screen of Rough Riders which won't feed Poxwalkers since they aren't infantry. It actually took the unit of Walkers a decent amount of time to chew through the 2 wound Rough Riders while the other squad of zombies got shot to pieces, freeing me up to switch gear and dump everything in range into the second unit of Poxwalkers which was further back.
For now I would just pray that we get one of the deployment types that has us on the short edges of the table instead of the long ones. I can see the validity of Tyhpus walking with the zombies, I was just trying to point out that it doesn't seem to be the best solution in all cases.
You’re right that in long deployments it can be somewhat problematic. Against guard, at least, I probably do have less deployments (usually) so I feel better about letting Typhus deep strike in turn 1, so he can move in front of the poxwalkers, letting him keep up. He would still be protected from shooting by the unit(s) of cultists, which in my list at least are in a normal CSM Detachment (Alpha legion) so they could infiltrate forward if need be. Or just move 6 plus run. That makes typhus able to keep up with the pox because he starts ahead of them.
Typhus making the pox t4 against str 3 weapons is absolutely huge. You’re right that my strategy outlined is about 1000 points for those models plus the core HQ models for both detachments. Throw in Mortarion and it’s 1400 or so. It’s a ton of points. But even dedicated competitive guard struggles to kill that many t4 models fast enough. Especially because the rest of my list can kill those models (zerks in a rhino, noise marines, etc). Essentially, I think people just underestimate what would happen if a squad of 40 str 5 pox show up as a result of this strategy, re-rolling all hits because of the tallyman and benefiting from the -1 T aura that Mortarion gives (so wounding guard on 2’s). It’s nasty.
I wanted to post SEVEN things it seems some people may have not noticed or considered about the new Death Guard Codex.
1) If you take 3-Haulers you are forced to keep them next to each other and it severely restricts your ability to spread out your cover save buff aura. I didn't see anything that lets them become separate units.
2) If you buy a unit of 3-Haulers and a single model is killed you no longer get the +1 to hit anymore. It states you only get +1 while it contains 3 models. It makes it a waste to do this.
3) The Tallyman and Foul Blighspawn have no melee attack profiles at all. I have never seen any unit other than these two like this. Does this mean they can't attack at all in close combat? It seems odd the guy who buffs all death guard in the fight phase can't fight.
4) After looking at the Primarius Marines I just realized how much better they are for +1 point than Death Guard as being the resilient infantry. The +1 wound, 30" bolters, with -1 AP far exceeds a Plague Marine. It quickly made me realize either Primarius Marines are undercosted or Plague Marines are overcosted.
5) The fleshmower looks awesome as a models but it kinda sucks. Only 6 attacks get the +2 STR the other 3 attacks must be the plague probe. The best option still is the plaguespitter since it can run and shoot and really hurts units who assault them. It can also leave combat and shoot at a diffrent unit. Having a it auto hit also means that mitigates the 4+ problem the fleshmower has.
6) The Plaguecrawler is super survivable (more than land raider against many threats). Don't over rely on the mortar. It is just a worse version of a basilisk.
7) Making a Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince your general with the Arch-Contaminator and Fugaris' Helm allows you to reroll 1s within a 18"+ circle and all plauge weapon wounds within a 20"+ circle (The (+) is due to the additional base size of the Prince/Lord and only needing one model within range for a unit.
Last warning - your personall harassment is against TOS of this site.
If you won't give up , you will force mods hand.
And don't blame me for it.
Despite me ignoring you long time ago, you spew more toxin at me than Mortarion himself, normally I wouldn't notice - since i ignored you , but I still see this fallout you spew at me in quotes.
I'm actually pretty serious now.
I'm not even starting discussion with you again - because I'm above such stuff. But you are asking for 3rd party involvment, so don't be surprised if your actions here will be taken into moderation sooner or later.
You are completely free to disagree with my tactics/oppinion but you are not entitled to throw gak at me all the time. Especially that you weren't right single time in your statements.
40 poxwalkers is not enough, even at 1500. If I'm playing at 2000, I have 60 plus the 70 cultists that will turn into poxwalkers when they die.
I concur. Our local Death Guard players have generally been running at least 80 to 100 at 1500 points with the rest of the army being characters to force their opponent to waste the first few turns shooting moral immune chaff while taking multiple smites in return.
3) The Tallyman and Foul Blighspawn have no melee attack profiles at all. I have never seen any unit other than these two like this. Does this mean they can't attack at all in close combat? It seems odd the guy who buffs all death guard in the fight phase can't fight.
Page #183 in the main rulebook covers this. Every model is treated as being armed with a "close combat weapon" that uses the user's strength and has no AP or special abilities.
5) The fleshmower looks awesome as a models but it kinda sucks. Only 6 attacks get the +2 STR the other 3 attacks must be the plague probe.
I don't see anything stopping you from allocating the Drone's 3 attacks to the weapon, as the ability shares the exact same wording as the Chainsword. Most weapons that are done outside of the model's attacks characteristic have a "after performing attacks" before describing how many attacks the weapon makes (see the various chariot models for examples).
Well yeah when you compare to others Plague Marines are expensive as hell.
Just like when you compare pox to other cannon fodder. Slow, weak in CC, not resilient at all. Just immune to morale.
But still that ain't crictical issue as we got access to other troops.
I don't see anything stopping you from allocating the Drone's 3 attacks to the weapon, as the ability shares the exact same wording as the Chainsword. Most weapons that are done outside of the model's attacks characteristic have a "after performing attacks" before describing how many attacks the weapon makes (see the various chariot models for examples).
There isn’t. You get 9 attacks. Really, all of the drones are fabulous. They’re stupidly hard to kill and have pretty good offensive output. The flamers are amazing against hordes, especially if you have an arch contaminator nearby. 9 attacks in close combat is amazing, especially if you make them +1 to hit (maybe not super worth using prescience on them and I don’t know if you can otherwise, but in a pinch it’s nice). I’m still thinking the maulerfiend is probably a little better though (in a CSM Detachment) because of the stratagem that lets it re-roll everything. But the drone doesn’t degrade and is DR. I’m least sold on the long range shooty version but it’ll keep firing at full effectiveness until it drops, which will be a long time most likely. Only reason I don’t like it quite as much is because you pay a lot of point for it’s cc weapon, so you’re either not using that or not using the range to it’s fullest if you run up and chop things. I think my tank of choice will still be the crawler, but I’m probably a little biased because I love that model
broxus wrote: I wanted to post SEVEN things it seems some people may have not noticed or considered about the new Death Guard Codex.
1) If you take 3-Haulers you are forced to keep them next to each other and it severely restricts your ability to spread out your cover save buff aura. I didn't see anything that lets them become separate units.
2) If you buy a unit of 3-Haulers and a single model is killed you no longer get the +1 to hit anymore. It states you only get +1 while it contains 3 models. It makes it a waste to do this.
3) The Tallyman and Foul Blighspawn have no melee attack profiles at all. I have never seen any unit other than these two like this. Does this mean they can't attack at all in close combat? It seems odd the guy who buffs all death guard in the fight phase can't fight.
4) After looking at the Primarius Marines I just realized how much better they are for +1 point than Death Guard as being the resilient infantry. The +1 wound, 30" bolters, with -1 AP far exceeds a Plague Marine. It quickly made me realize either Primarius Marines are undercosted or Plague Marines are overcosted.
5) The fleshmower looks awesome as a models but it kinda sucks. Only 6 attacks get the +2 STR the other 3 attacks must be the plague probe. The best option still is the plaguespitter since it can run and shoot and really hurts units who assault them. It can also leave combat and shoot at a diffrent unit. Having a it auto hit also means that mitigates the 4+ problem the fleshmower has.
6) The Plaguecrawler is super survivable (more than land raider against many threats). Don't over rely on the mortar. It is just a worse version of a basilisk.
7) Making a Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince your general with the Arch-Contaminator and Fugaris' Helm allows you to reroll 1s within a 18"+ circle and all plauge weapon wounds within a 20"+ circle (The (+) is due to the additional base size of the Prince/Lord and only needing one model within range for a unit.
Yup, I second alot of these things. Except I am not so sure about the fleshmower. I was under the impression all 9 attacks get the benefit. Anyway about the Hauler. Just get it for some shooting, as distraction carnefix (hopefully), and don't get too fixated on getting the +1 to hit. In fact, I would think that unless you had like tons of squads all spread out and needed such a waide cover save coverage, just take one Hauler will do. Nowadays there is no penalty for clumping units together anyway. Its quite possible to clump a few units within that 7 inch cover bubble.
The +1 to hit is not really that important because the guns on the Hauler aren't really such a big deal. I mean, they are decent, but they aren't going to win you the game. And even if you are going shooty, they aren't that efficient in terms of trying to spam haulers just for its guns. So, just bring 1, at most 2 to cover your whole army and don't get hung up about the +1 to hit. I mean, look at our hellbrutes. They come with BS 3+ and a multimelta, and you can put a twin lascannon on them too, but I don't really think a hellbrute's guns has ever been considered very shooty. The Hauler is the same except its BS 4+ makes it even less efficient from a shooting standpoint (although its more resilient).
On another note, I wonder about the viability of spamming plague marines for their blight launchers and plasma guns on champion. Each minimum squad of 5 can take two blight launchers and one plasma gun (on the champ). If we skimp on any special CC weapons, the squad is barely 136 points. 6 of these squads adds up to just 816 points and would fill up all 6 slots in a battalion detachment. Then throw in a Daemon Prince or chaos lord with fugris helm and archcontaminator for the reroll 1 to hit and reroll to wound on my blight launchers. Have Mortarion charging in with cheap plague drones or blight drones separately. If he gets into range, he will lower all the toughness within 7 inches and then those blight launchers will now be wounding on 2s. The Daemon Prince can be the countercharge for anything trying to threathen the whole group in melee. And they will have more things to worry about with Mortarion and his drone escorts. But leave them alone, and its 36 shots each turn, which is very decent.
broxus wrote: I wanted to post SEVEN things it seems some people may have not noticed or considered about the new Death Guard Codex.
1) If you take 3-Haulers you are forced to keep them next to each other and it severely restricts your ability to spread out your cover save buff aura. I didn't see anything that lets them become separate units.
2) If you buy a unit of 3-Haulers and a single model is killed you no longer get the +1 to hit anymore. It states you only get +1 while it contains 3 models. It makes it a waste to do this.
4) After looking at the Primarius Marines I just realized how much better they are for +1 point than Death Guard as being the resilient infantry. The +1 wound, 30" bolters, with -1 AP far exceeds a Plague Marine. It quickly made me realize either Primarius Marines are undercosted or Plague Marines are overcosted.
7) Making a Chaos Lord or Daemon Prince your general with the Arch-Contaminator and Fugaris' Helm allows you to reroll 1s within a 18"+ circle and all plauge weapon wounds within a 20"+ circle (The (+) is due to the additional base size of the Prince/Lord and only needing one model within range for a unit.
1/2). I agree, though I would say it's more a matter of haulers not being worth taking period. You pay space marine prices for the guns, meaning the same price as a unit with a 3+ would, yet only get a 4+, and they aren't even particularly good guns. The buff is nice but we don't have anything that benefits greatly. Going from a 3+ to a 2+ is great, but PM are awful as ranged troops right and rhinos are more cost effective for melee units. Cultists could work, but 6+ to 5+ isn't really worth that price tag. Nor is a 6+ on pox walkers, who shouldn't be moving forward anyways as they are not an offensive unit.
4). Plague marines are just bad, mostly. They have one advantage in that they can be loaded down with good melee gear and act as slightly more expensive yet significantly tougher melee chosen with better options. Not that melee chosen are exactly a popular unit, but that and blight bombardment are the only things they do well.
7). The helm specifically mentions auras on the unit's datasheet, so I'm not sure it applies to the warlord trait.
Also, to the people who keep discussing this, poxwalkers are not an offensive unit. Cultists with auto guns do the same job far better, given they have 18" RF auto guns and aren't a 4" move melee unit, plus are cheaper. 30 normal cultists put out the same damage as 20 buffed pox walkers, don't need a 170 point hq babysitting them and wasting his potential, and won't take 3 turns to do anything.
Pox walkers sit in the back and screen. If you are considering them for any other purpose, it's a bad idea. Another unit will do the same task better. Do not pour resources into a unit that will never reward the effort.
@Eldenfirefly I really like the idea maxing out plague marine squads. I think they can throw out an insane amount of firepower. I just don't think that blightlaunchers are better than plasma especially since it is not an option for the sergeant. They just all around are better and don't require Mortarian to lower toughness or rerolls to wound. I wish it wasn't the case, but I will be running 3 plasmas in each squad. If you go this direction it may be worth taking a few haulers and maybe a surgeon to make them even more survivable.
@Silveralien Arch Contagian is an aura so it should be benefited from the helm. Also, I don't think that PM are bad, but are likely overpriced by a point or two. Finally, I agree about poxwalkers. I can see on occasion they could be awesome especially against conscript hordes using a strategem. However, they are just to slow and require to much babysitting Typhus and psychic abilites to be of any real value. If they were 5 points they may be worth it IMHO. However, I personally would rather take more PM, cultists, or Plaguebearers (the best of all troops in the book).
Well, I wouldn't say plague marines can throw out an insane amount of firepower, but if you are comparing them with normal CSM, then they are more efficient. (shocking I know, but true).
Let's say you want to take 3 plasma guns on a normal CSM squad, then you would need to have a squad of ten, and have the sergeant take a combi plasma. This works out to 171 points. That's for 10 models.
You can get the same 3 plasma guns from a 5 man plague marine squad for just 134 points, which is substantially less. And ultimately, its a tough little squad too, since we are talking about T5 models with DR. Maybe not quite as tough as a 10 man squad, but I think its close. More importantly, you can start firing those plasma guns almost from turn 1, whereas the same CSM squad may need at least two turns to get into position to double tap those plasma guns if they are footslogging up. If they are using a Rhino, then add the cost of the Rhino to the whole thing.
What is really crazy 6 squads can put out 36 plasma shots a turn when they rapid fire at 18". That brings the pain for a reasonable price. They can be overcharged if needed depending on the target.
And the more I think about it, the more I think the Hauler isn't needed. You want to keep things efficient. The Hauler isn't really that shooty, and it adds to the cost of your 36 plasma shot platform. Just let them fire at T5 plague marines with DR if they so wish. The key thing is, if you kept the cost under control by just using the barebones 5-man squads with 3 plasma guns, then you have lots of points left over for other threats like Mortarion, and his drone escort. Plague marines are already resilient enough and they pay for that with their higher points per model, so just let them be shot at if the opponent wants to shoot them!
broxus wrote: What is really crazy 6 squads can put out 36 plasma shots a turn when they rapid fire at 18". That brings the pain for a reasonable price. They can be overcharged if needed depending on the target.
A reasonable price? You pay over 800 points for that. 20 helblasters will output 40 plasma shots for around 650 points and they can deploy in rapid fire range with the ravenguard stratagem.
broxus wrote: What is really crazy 6 squads can put out 36 plasma shots a turn when they rapid fire at 18". That brings the pain for a reasonable price. They can be overcharged if needed depending on the target.
I think it may not be that easy to keep your lord/prince always in range for all 6 squads tbh. And even if you do - you can't control any objective lol. Since they will all stick together.
It's more tabling tactic than anything I assume.
Unless you plan to shoot a lot without OH - but then what is the point ?
)
but probably not worth giving up obsec so I guess a Lord
