You guys realize that the pistol has a threat range of 15" + 5" move + 6" from the strat, right? And that isn't counting 3" from getting out of a Rhino with that power armor Chaos Lord or Plague Surgeon. Cheapo Chaos Lord starting in a Rhino for protection has a 29" threat range with that pistol. Easily enough to hit enemy units even if it's the first turn and you go first.
Virules wrote: You guys realize that the pistol has a threat range of 15" + 5" move + 6" from the strat, right? And that isn't counting 3" from getting out of a Rhino with that power armor Chaos Lord or Plague Surgeon. Cheapo Chaos Lord starting in a Rhino for protection has a 29" threat range with that pistol. Easily enough to hit enemy units even if it's the first turn and you go first.
Yep it really isn’t about the range. I found so many of your weapons are already plague weapons that it really wasn’t worth taking the combo. It honestly depends on your list. Having to position the pistol guy, arch-contaminatior guy, and unit shooting without plague weapons didn’t work out as often as I would like. Even worse I would miss with the gun.
Virules wrote: You guys realize that the pistol has a threat range of 15" + 5" move + 6" from the strat, right? And that isn't counting 3" from getting out of a Rhino with that power armor Chaos Lord or Plague Surgeon. Cheapo Chaos Lord starting in a Rhino for protection has a 29" threat range with that pistol. Easily enough to hit enemy units even if it's the first turn and you go first.
Sure, but that chaos lord is dead the turn after. It's just too much of an investment for something that amounts to dooming a single unit for non-plague weapons. Orks get something better for 2CP and still never use it.
I've watched 4 9th edition battle reports with DG so far and it's been 1-3. This does kinda worry me since we were in such an under powered place late 8e. However, rumor is that DG get a codex early? Maybe? It would be real sad to go another edition being kinda meh.
Radikus wrote: I've watched 4 9th edition battle reports with DG so far and it's been 1-3. This does kinda worry me since we were in such an under powered place late 8e. However, rumor is that DG get a codex early? Maybe? It would be real sad to go another edition being kinda meh.
Which is funny because quite a few of the playtesters seem to think DG are in quite a good spot (and they would have played a lot more than 4 games).
DG were really good in 8th with PA; 9th plays more to their strengths of mid-board capture and hold. I don't see how 9th edition nerfs them. The "magic box" nerf hurts everyone so that's not exclusive to DG.
I think properly but DG are in a great place as above to hold objectives which is the main goal in 9th. That said this play style is going to have to be taken to the extreme to win which means little to no focus on actually killing and instead only on surviving.
This is a difficult and often unfun play style for many which I anticipate as a turn off until a new dex can come out.
DG have never been super killy and 9th isn't about killing.
Sure, there are secondaries that reward killing but the primaries and most of the secondaries reward holding objectives and that's what DG excel at.
I look at DG as the "tanks" of 40k. Lots of armies are good at killing, lots are good at supporting themselves internally and so can do both.
Plus 20 PM having the stratagem that gives them extra attacks with their plague knives makes PM quite killy.
Not to mention our PBC's don't suffer -1 to shoot anymore when they move, the cap on "to hit" rolls helps us against like harlies and other armies that before could stack multiple "to hit" debuffs.
So PBC's hit harder than in 8th.
I don't play DG to blow my opponent off the table. I play them to take a punch and keep standing. And they do it quite well.
Put a LoC next to some PBC's and they have 3+/4++/5+++ saves if you play the Poxmonger Company and take the relic.
Jidmah wrote: So, I played a game of mock 9th yesterday and got my ass handed because I failed to properly screen my characters with the new rules. Lessons need to be learned. Turns out that a unit of 5 plague marines only protects them until you lose three, then they can be shot by anything that wants to shoot them.
Does anyone have an idea how to get multiple primaris units off objectives with pure DG? Outside of charging them with a daemon prince I was kind of at a loss to what to do about them.
Well if you want 14+ dead take a unit of deathshroud as I highlighted in my a analysis above. It is a cheap 210 points for a way to clear off 280 pts of intercessors in one turn. (More like 20 if you wanted to burn some strategems)
In contrast those intercessors would likely cause only 1 wound if they all were able to shoot at the deathshroud in cover.
The scenario you described is exactly why I think the death yard worth taking now to clear and old objectives.
did you ever consider that a skilled opponent will not let you touch something valuable with a unit that move 4" or try luck with a 9" charge? Now deahsroud are playable but i still prefer a 10 men blightlord squad, play just 5 with new DG rules is a no sense actually, I dont know why ppls are always so entusiast with those kind of units, damage comparison is no sense.Deathshroud in 90% of cases will NEVER get into a quality melee they are good at, unless your opponent is lobotomyzed
I keep reading DG is one of the stronger factions or it will be in the new edition (we'll see) and I respect these opinions. Maybe these guys are just way better players then I am or it's in their meta, I don't know. But I couldn't disagree more. I mainly played against Astra Militarum and Ad Mech during all of 8th and I just constantly struggled outside of very small games on smaller boards. I really can't see DG being one of the stronger factions, even after PA which imho brought some relief albeit at an insulting cost in CP.
I've tried daemon engine lists, I've tried blobs of plague marines or smaller squads in Rhinos, I've tried poxwalker lists, all while playing to the objectives. Nothing worked out for me even with lots of terrain, as I was unable to deal any meaningful damage and while DG can take a lot of punches, the enemy (not losing much during my turns) just continued to focus fire units and chip away on my forces.
Being a mid to short ranged faction while lacking speed and ways to improve charges, lacking long-range AT, having horribly overcosted basic units (look at the points evolution of plague marines and they are still overcosted), missing faction abilities on vehicles, having nearly as much scornergy as synergy, having badly ported units from codex CSM, all while recently being forced to fix some problems using CP is just not fun and I repeat, certainly not a strong faction in my book.
Sorry for ranting. Here's hoping a new codex early on in 9th will improve on things.
DG works only with another detachment were you have access to warptime, who had success with "dg" played lot of forge world units (like Don Hooson) or just dont play in very competitive enviroment, maybe in ITC you had a chance, with GW missions you hadn't and perhaps you still not have as a pure DG. We will see in 9th, maybe in a more elitary oriented system and with more mid field control, maybe DG can improve chances
From my experience with mock-9th so far (playing 9th with 20% less points), if have found that much of how we play games today will be invalidated, the game will be a completely new one. Strategies we were using in 9th have become invalid, some outright traps that will cause you to lose the game. Getting onto objectives and staying there, performing actions and denying your opponent his points will be vastly more important that killing stuff. Smaller boards and missions with central objectives make it much harder to find good spots to deep strike, while terrain makes it easier to have cover and harder to hide out of LOS since magic boxes are gone. Obscuring terrain helps as much as it hurts and ruins now help people getting charged inside them. Charging into a unit of plague marines with a flail that is covered by a foul blightspawn's aura can easily end in that unit being mostly dead before it even gets to strike.
Honestly, from the few games I have played, I find it hard to tell whether DG will play a major or minor role in this new game. When playing against space marines it still feels like they are just better at everything we do, so point costs will play a major role for us, and I don't think we have found the best combos from war of the spider yet.
BleachHawk wrote: I keep reading DG is one of the stronger factions or it will be in the new edition (we'll see) and I respect these opinions. Maybe these guys are just way better players then I am or it's in their meta, I don't know. But I couldn't disagree more. I mainly played against Astra Militarum and Ad Mech during all of 8th and I just constantly struggled outside of very small games on smaller boards. I really can't see DG being one of the stronger factions, even after PA which imho brought some relief albeit at an insulting cost in CP.
I've tried daemon engine lists, I've tried blobs of plague marines or smaller squads in Rhinos, I've tried poxwalker lists, all while playing to the objectives. Nothing worked out for me even with lots of terrain, as I was unable to deal any meaningful damage and while DG can take a lot of punches, the enemy (not losing much during my turns) just continued to focus fire units and chip away on my forces.
Being a mid to short ranged faction while lacking speed and ways to improve charges, lacking long-range AT, having horribly overcosted basic units (look at the points evolution of plague marines and they are still overcosted), missing faction abilities on vehicles, having nearly as much scornergy as synergy, having badly ported units from codex CSM, all while recently being forced to fix some problems using CP is just not fun and I repeat, certainly not a strong faction in my book.
Sorry for ranting. Here's hoping a new codex early on in 9th will improve on things.
This I agree with. Just because some play testers claim they are good doesn't mean they are good. My evidence comes directly from watching games played, which the results haven't been great.
To be fair, in that game between orks and DG, the ork player did not deserve that win and the DG player played right into those burna bommers. I never get that many hits when my bommers head-but something because my opponents know how to minimize damage from them. He just took them right to the face and hoped that DR would safe him.
Why are people taking 8th edition rules into consideration at all when trying to gauge whether a faction will be strong or not in ninth? almost none of the things that mattered in 8th edition will matter in 9th.
BlaxicanX wrote: Why are people taking 8th edition rules into consideration at all when trying to gauge whether a faction will be strong or not at night? almost none of the things that mattered in 8th edition will matter in 9th.
IMO it's hard to grasp how massive the impact of all the small changes they have done is on the actual games before you have experienced it.
I'm guessing we really need the day one FAQ but do we know what sort of cover the myphitic blighthauler will grant? I'm inclined to say it really should be dense cover rather than light or heavy. Would mean his buff becomes -1 to hit and would presumably stack with +1 save from light cover ruins etc.
Will make the little trucks pretty useful no?
Jidmah wrote: I highly doubt that anything but +1 to armor will come from this.
The -1 AP stratagem, blast and the ability to shoot in combat already makes them nice additions to a DG army.
Likely, but it makes sense in literal terms to make them -1 to hit.
Overall, I am really curious how they are going to update all our stuff. IA, tri-lobe, and other abilities are now redundant and useless. I’m hoping our new codex codex gives the following chapter trait:
-Everything gets a 5+ DR in the army and all units can reroll ones (Plague surgeons can allow infantry to reroll 1 & 2s) (most units have already)
-All weapons in the Army are plague weapons (most already are or can be)
-ignore -1 AP weapons (similar to salamanders)
Honestly, those three things are not too powerful. This would keep us somewhat competitive against the SMs who have doctrines and 3 traits. I wish the company’s had maybe some trait they gave all units also. Maybe we get two of the three I mentioned and choosing a company gives the third.
Radikus wrote: I've watched 4 9th edition battle reports with DG so far and it's been 1-3. This does kinda worry me since we were in such an under powered place late 8e. However, rumor is that DG get a codex early? Maybe? It would be real sad to go another edition being kinda meh.
As has been said at first glance DG seem pretty nice for 9e, especially their vehicles. Plagueburst Crawlers can use their flamers in CC, 5+++ Land Raiders that are much harder to tarpit and tasty 5+++ Defilers. Although a lot will of course also depend on point costs.
A bit late as always, but I've just had my first game of DG with War of the Spider (been a busy few weekends), still on 8th...
Man I cannot wait for 9th to roll around. Had 5 CP starting out after pre-game purchases. I was running a poxmongers daemon engine list backed up by plague marines in rhinos - aim was the quickly claim the centre ground and hold it (the mission was Take & Hold from the Open War cards... don't ask we were both quite drunk)
I was facing an Imperial Fist gunline complete with Centurions, 3 vindicators, devs, a relic contemptor, and Tor Garadon. The Ironclot Furnace was game-changing, whereas before that list would've blown me off the board, he only managed a couple of wounds on the PBCs. I got a bit greedy and charged the vindicators, locking them all up for a couple of turns, but my main mistake was charging the centurions with the DP. Not actually charging them per se - he wiped them all out in combat which was quite impressive, but my positioning of him afterwards meant that pesky relic contemptor was able to charge him and wipe the floor with my poor DP.
So there goes my Arch-Contaminator Warlord and the Ironclot Furnace. Stupid move - wasn't thinking clearly. And without AC my daemon engines couldn't put a dent into those T8 vindicators.
That was all gravy of course, as the plague marines held the objectives and won me the game - but I had no CP left to spend on them so until 9th rolls around I think I need to resist the urge to spend lots of CP before the game begins.
Honestly with how many new strategies we got in where the spider I can't even imagine playing 8th edition anymore with death guard. The CP gain it's just too much.
Got an 8th tourney on Saturday and was thinking the same. Have had to really curtail the pregame CP spending and settled on starting with 5. It'll be my last 3 games of 8th and feel that we really need the CP mechanisms of 9th now. We can munch through them pretty quick!
After browsing some of the other armies points changes, DG seems to be fine and right in line with the others. The increase in cheap infantry hurts my dreams of viable Poxwalker hordes and I still think Plague Marines cost too much, the rest of the army seems appropriately pointed in comparison to everything else.
I was worried that the board would be filled up with models if they didn’t generally pump up points, and it seems they did. Also that might explain why spammable cheap infantry went up so much, board control in terms of just SPACE is going to be extremely valuable in this new age of mission scoring. So maybe all things considered Poxwalkers still might work?
I think it's fair to say that I am overall positive.
However, some things I'm a bit confused about:
Deathshroud Terms going way back up in points again, despite them not being widely used anyway is strange
Inexorable Advance is pretty useless now.
MBH Putrescent Fog ability hasn't been FAQ'd so no idea what 'cover' means. Is it light cover, heavy cover? Some other cover?
Deathshroud going up so much (or at all) is honestly idiotic, and the PBC jump is too much. The DP and Foetid Bloatdrone changes were probably also unecessary. Other than that, seems fine. Poxwalkers and Cultists are once again way overpriced per model but that happened to a lot of armies (oddly not Astra Militarum, yet again, despite being better models per point!). Plague Marines are super overpriced compared to Intercessors but currently all troops in the game are overpriced compared to Intercessors and Primaris models generally.
Manreapers went down by 2, so the death shrouds only went up by 5. Considering how my opponent are now all trying to snipe my arch-contaminator to make my army fall apart, I'm seriously considering bringing three to protect my warlord.
Other than that, the defilers look really tasty now. With scourge and auto-cannon it's just 140, 170 for lascannons. Put DR on it, protect with 4++ and have it regenerate a wound every turn.
Very basic question - With the movement phase as defined in 9th edition (1 move units, 2 reinforcements) - can we use cloud of flies on a unit that arrives from deepstrike? Alternatively if the unit is deployed as reinforcements using CP does it impact the ability to use cloud of flies?
orkswubwub wrote: Very basic question - With the movement phase as defined in 9th edition (1 move units, 2 reinforcements) - can we use cloud of flies on a unit that arrives from deepstrike? Alternatively if the unit is deployed as reinforcements using CP does it impact the ability to use cloud of flies?
The reinforcement step is part of the movement phase, so I see no reason why this wouldn't be the case.
orkswubwub wrote: Very basic question - With the movement phase as defined in 9th edition (1 move units, 2 reinforcements) - can we use cloud of flies on a unit that arrives from deepstrike? Alternatively if the unit is deployed as reinforcements using CP does it impact the ability to use cloud of flies?
The reinforcement step is part of the movement phase, so I see no reason why this wouldn't be the case.
I think it has something to do with blightlord terminators teleportarium strike coming in at the 'end of the movement phase' - some TO have ruled the unit technically can't be a target as the movement phase ends after the unit comes in.
Jidmah wrote: This was true in 8th, but the rules have changed.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Castozor wrote: That´s nonsense though because unless you are in the psychic phase you are logically still in the movement phase.
In 8th there was a FAQ clarifying that you cannot use "during movement phase" stratagems on units arriving from deep strike.
Thanks Jidmah this is exactly what I was referring to - I'm still kind of lost in all the new rules of 9th but was wondering if this has been applied forward with all the latest FAQ renewals etc. Was this issued in designers commentary or in an actual FAQ? Would you be able to point me towards the source?
There is no real source, besides the absence of a FAQ that disallows using movement phase stratagems during the reinforcement step - which is now part a part of the movement phase.
Castozor wrote: I did not know about that FAQ, but then I never really used cloud on my termies anyway. Guess we will have to wait for GW to clarify then for 9th.
Why? The rule is clear. Reinforcements arrive during the movement phase. Cloud of Flies can be used at any point during the movement phase.
Castozor wrote: I did not know about that FAQ, but then I never really used cloud on my termies anyway. Guess we will have to wait for GW to clarify then for 9th.
Why? The rule is clear. Reinforcements arrive during the movement phase. Cloud of Flies can be used at any point during the movement phase.
I always assumed end of movement phase was the movement phase too, so maybe the FAQ was intended design. Going by that assumption I think we might get a further clarification is all. As it stands you are right rules are clear.
For anyone interested, I did an analysis on my YouTube channel yesterday on how to play Chaos in 9th Edition based on all the new points changes and FAQs:
From my experience with mock-9th so far (playing 9th with 20% less points), if have found that much of how we play games today will be invalidated, the game will be a completely new one. Strategies we were using in 9th have become invalid, some outright traps that will cause you to lose the game.
Getting onto objectives and staying there, performing actions and denying your opponent his points will be vastly more important that killing stuff. Smaller boards and missions with central objectives make it much harder to find good spots to deep strike, while terrain makes it easier to have cover and harder to hide out of LOS since magic boxes are gone. Obscuring terrain helps as much as it hurts and ruins now help people getting charged inside them. Charging into a unit of plague marines with a flail that is covered by a foul blightspawn's aura can easily end in that unit being mostly dead before it even gets to strike.
Honestly, from the few games I have played, I find it hard to tell whether DG will play a major or minor role in this new game. When playing against space marines it still feels like they are just better at everything we do, so point costs will play a major role for us, and I don't think we have found the best combos from war of the spider yet.
We played a ton of games over the weekend with the same idea (9th ed rules using 8th ed points but play at 850 instead of 1000 and 1850 instead of 2000) and I think Jidmah is right. I mentioned a page or two back that my DG is primarily footslogging. That was 8th. I brought my Tsons to the weekend games but based on that experience, my footslogging horde of DG would have lost every game. Badly. That's the bad news.
The good news is, I'm pretty confident I just have to retool with some Rhinos and add in a few more mobile units and everything will be fine. I think if you're looking at 9th and trying to use footslogging, slow Death Guard, you're in trouble, but they should be half way decent if you adjust to the new paradigm of grabbing objectives quickly and holding them as long as you can.
wow just revisiting my DG for 9th and redoing my lists.
The sheer weight of stratagems DG now have! i normally pick out the ones i can use and sumerise them on my army list in order of most useful to least useful.
I'v basically got this swathe of text!
Spoiler:
Strats:
1cp Blight: All models fire blight grenades
1cp Cloud: INF unit can only target if closest
1cp vet: INF +1 to wound phase
1cp extra attack with plague knives
1cp +1dmg in combat and 6 to wound is -4
1cp within one uit 7" of blight hauler +1ap to all weps
1cp in combat plague weapons auto wound on 6 to hit
2cp give defiler disgusting resitient
1cp Shoot when falling back with daemon engine <poxmonger>
1cp If kill mode with daemon engine in combat d3 wounds <poxmonger>
2cp Bless: INF d3 wounds or a model back
1cp Exp: Vehicle auto explodes
1cp Blas: Move fire vehicle hw no penalty
1cp: Fam: Replace psy power
3cp Rot: 7" char roll dice on 4+ d3 MW 1cp Plague marines on a 6 to wound -4 bolters
1/2cp Inf rapid fire 2 bolters, 2cp if over 5mods
2/3cp +1 plague marine disgust res, 3cp if over 10
1cp if die within 3" that mode is -1 to hit
2cp within 1" of plague marines -1 t
1cp Entropy cannon on plague burst within 7" always fo min 3 wounds
dont get me wrong choice is good, but how do you guys manage what you are using in games? Seems like there are so many situational strats now its easy to loose track.
Perhaps you have recipes of strats you combine and only use them if you combine them?
From my experience with mock-9th so far (playing 9th with 20% less points), if have found that much of how we play games today will be invalidated, the game will be a completely new one. Strategies we were using in 9th have become invalid, some outright traps that will cause you to lose the game.
Getting onto objectives and staying there, performing actions and denying your opponent his points will be vastly more important that killing stuff. Smaller boards and missions with central objectives make it much harder to find good spots to deep strike, while terrain makes it easier to have cover and harder to hide out of LOS since magic boxes are gone. Obscuring terrain helps as much as it hurts and ruins now help people getting charged inside them. Charging into a unit of plague marines with a flail that is covered by a foul blightspawn's aura can easily end in that unit being mostly dead before it even gets to strike.
Honestly, from the few games I have played, I find it hard to tell whether DG will play a major or minor role in this new game. When playing against space marines it still feels like they are just better at everything we do, so point costs will play a major role for us, and I don't think we have found the best combos from war of the spider yet.
We played a ton of games over the weekend with the same idea (9th ed rules using 8th ed points but play at 850 instead of 1000 and 1850 instead of 2000) and I think Jidmah is right. I mentioned a page or two back that my DG is primarily footslogging. That was 8th. I brought my Tsons to the weekend games but based on that experience, my footslogging horde of DG would have lost every game. Badly. That's the bad news.
The good news is, I'm pretty confident I just have to retool with some Rhinos and add in a few more mobile units and everything will be fine. I think if you're looking at 9th and trying to use footslogging, slow Death Guard, you're in trouble, but they should be half way decent if you adjust to the new paradigm of grabbing objectives quickly and holding them as long as you can.
So weird i said early on this would be the mech edition and i'v never understood FS DG armies because since i started my army in 2007 they'v always been fully mechanised.
They'v done well for me like this in every edition since then. A rhino gives you speed to get to an obj and makes plague marines that much harder to shift because they are not taking punishment early on or at least the first turn.
Abaddon303 wrote: I'm guessing we really need the day one FAQ but do we know what sort of cover the myphitic blighthauler will grant? I'm inclined to say it really should be dense cover rather than light or heavy. Would mean his buff becomes -1 to hit and would presumably stack with +1 save from light cover ruins etc.
Will make the little trucks pretty useful no?
This has been solved by the way - the rare rules section specifies that rules providing the benefit of cover despite not being terrain counts as light terrain.
So +1 armor it is, and no stacking with other terrain.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So many relics now I'm struggling to pick three from:
Fugaris Helm
Suppurating Plate
Ironclot Furnace
Epidemicyst Blade
Daemon's Toll
How do others rate them? I'm most inclined to drop the helm as it's only 3"
There's so much to go through now, I'm trying to identify whether any warlord traits or pregame strats can give similar upgrades as obviously each of those is 1CP where as a third relic effectively costs 2CP.
Certainly, a plague surgeon rerolling 1s and 2s for plague weapons probably gives greater coverage than using Fugaris Helm to extend arch contaminator and much of the time you're looking to wound on 3+ anyway...
Automatically Appended Next Post: So many relics now I'm struggling to pick three from:
Fugaris Helm
Suppurating Plate
Ironclot Furnace
Epidemicyst Blade
Daemon's Toll
How do others rate them? I'm most inclined to drop the helm as it's only 3"
There's so much to go through now, I'm trying to identify whether any warlord traits or pregame strats can give similar upgrades as obviously each of those is 1CP where as a third relic effectively costs 2CP.
Certainly, a plague surgeon rerolling 1s and 2s for plague weapons probably gives greater coverage than using Fugaris Helm to extend arch contaminator and much of the time you're looking to wound on 3+ anyway...
I really think we do have some great relic options now. I really like the furnace, suppurating plate, new daemon prince sword, and Fulgrim helm. It depends on the type of list I build on what I use. I think right now mech lists are our strongest (see my list above). Since playing 9th edition games with a list similar I have won every game by a landslide.
Your obsec units are very slow and won't have staying power. Also, this list is really short ranged outside of the Demon engines. The way 9th works, many armies will be able to dance circles around this. You will be second to objectives every time, and you don't have enough offensive punch to reliably push anyone off the table.
I really think this is going to be an edition where Plague Marines in Rhinos shine. I would try to get two MSU squads in to this.Throw a FBS in each as well for extra close-in support and maybe two winged DPs instead of the LoC which is bad in 8th and only looking to be worse in 9th IMO.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So many relics now I'm struggling to pick three from:
Fugaris Helm
Suppurating Plate
Ironclot Furnace
Epidemicyst Blade
Daemon's Toll
How do others rate them? I'm most inclined to drop the helm as it's only 3"
There's so much to go through now, I'm trying to identify whether any warlord traits or pregame strats can give similar upgrades as obviously each of those is 1CP where as a third relic effectively costs 2CP.
Certainly, a plague surgeon rerolling 1s and 2s for plague weapons probably gives greater coverage than using Fugaris Helm to extend arch contaminator and much of the time you're looking to wound on 3+ anyway...
I agree on the helm. Having a surgeon as mini-contaminator seems a much better solution.
My preference would probably be Epidemicyst Blade followed by toll and furnace. Might drop one or the other depending on army composition to have more CP for stratagems. 2CP go a long way for DG now.
In one of my game The Ferryman’s Scythe also did good work for me, a LoC with that thing destroys anything he touches. Ferrymen don't make much sense unless you are bringing a blight lord plasma bomb though.
Has anyone tried super-charging helbrutes yet? Daemons Toll+Contaminated Monstrocity makes them as durable as a daemon engine and Fire Frenzy+Fire Fever gives you four lascannon shots and two ML shots with re-rolling hits.
Anyone tried the rotten veil with like a deep striking termi lord and summoning like 20 plague bearers?
Also what's the furnace play? Simple lord? I wanna run one with blight hauliers a pdc and a defiler but worried itll limit them into an clumped castle esp the hauliers giving cover bonuses
Furnace carrier has been a problem I've been figuring out myself. I'm settling on a walking DP. Wings are too expensive but walking still has an 8" move. This let's them keep up with the demon engines you want to protect.
Other options like base lords and Plaguecasters are sniper bait or trade re-rolls for psychic or vice versa. DP does both.
I like the return to vehicle spam. I know vehicles weren't that great in 8th edition but I got kind of bored watching the same DG lists over and over again. Everything walks up the board, only vehicles on the table were PBC's (maybe drones or MBH's).
I can see the Rhino wall returning. It was a very popular and annoying thing in 3r, 4th and 5th even back when Rhinos were more likely than not one shotted by lascannons and multimeltas.
The plan is simple.
Nurglings grab and defend/deny objectives early on. The GUO + the strat Nurglings Infestation + Fleshy abundance make them a pain to shift. They are very point efficient, imho.
The MBHs are the star of the list. In total they have 72 wounds, with a 4+, 5++, at T7. 9 multi melta, 9 MLs and 9d3 bile spurts. The GUO can resurrect one model with the bell (or the nurglings), and/or heal the others. The poxmongers strat might also help. And they are "fast", able to reach objectives by tur 2.
As the game now requires to "split" forces, ideally 6 MBH go with the DP and 1 Foul blightspawn; the GUO, 3 MBH e the other Foul blightspawn go to the other objective; nurglings where needed
Would this be viable? And what should I add to make this a viable 2000 pts list?
@SatanEatSeitan - what’s your plan for holding your home objective? Most of the 9ed games I’ve seen have been decided by capturing the middle - you can probably do that - and holding your line. I can see an infantry gunline holding you off whilst a cheeky deep strike or outflank scores a touchdown.
A Gnarlmaw might be handy. Being able to advance a load of haulers could help tag an objective at the start, and even get a cheeky T1 charge. And it helps make your home objective toxic.
(a) PMs, but they are now rather expensive and needs a lot of synergies to operate
Played a few games of 9th last night with my DG. Had two squads of PMs in Rhinos along with a Plague Surgeon and a FBB. I was playing Mortarion's Chosen Sons. The Rhinos got them to the objectives quickly, and re-rolling 1s and 2s on DRs helped quite a bit. Also ran a bell-boy up the board to support on of the squads using the Demon's Toll so they had a 5+ invuln as well. On turn 2 I summoned Plague Bearers around each of those two objectives. This is similar to how I've played my Tsons in previous games and it was equally powerful. They were super hard to shift, and I also had a large squad of Cultists supported by a Demon prince and some MBHs, holding a third objective. Also used "Raise the Banners".
I know they went up in points but with the right buffs, Plague Marines in Rhinos are going to be tough this edition. So far, I feel like GW actually did a decent job of making it worth it to use them again. They'll also be necessary. It's an edition about SPEED.
EDIT:
To be clear because I didn't specify - I know you can only use the reroll strat on ONE Plague Surgeon. I wanted to have identical units so I could compare actual results with and without the strat in the same game. I can't math-hammer so this is as scientific as I get. lol
The temptation with PMs is to go all-in and field large foot-slogging squads. According to other feedbacks, this is not very efficient, all things considered.
A better alternative may be that of running smaller squads in rhinos + supporting characters.
Did you give the rhinos DR? And how many plague bearers did you summon?
Abaddon303 wrote: I'm guessing we really need the day one FAQ but do we know what sort of cover the myphitic blighthauler will grant? I'm inclined to say it really should be dense cover rather than light or heavy. Would mean his buff becomes -1 to hit and would presumably stack with +1 save from light cover ruins etc.
Will make the little trucks pretty useful no?
This has been solved by the way - the rare rules section specifies that rules providing the benefit of cover despite not being terrain counts as light terrain.
So +1 armor it is, and no stacking with other terrain.
Where specifically are you seeing this? Just want to have it to hand on case anyone questions it in a game. Thanks in advance.
Abaddon303 wrote: I'm guessing we really need the day one FAQ but do we know what sort of cover the myphitic blighthauler will grant? I'm inclined to say it really should be dense cover rather than light or heavy. Would mean his buff becomes -1 to hit and would presumably stack with +1 save from light cover ruins etc.
Will make the little trucks pretty useful no?
This has been solved by the way - the rare rules section specifies that rules providing the benefit of cover despite not being terrain counts as light terrain.
So +1 armor it is, and no stacking with other terrain.
Where specifically are you seeing this? Just want to have it to hand on case anyone questions it in a game. Thanks in advance.
The rule book has a "rare rules" section specifically handling this.
The temptation with PMs is to go all-in and field large foot-slogging squads. According to other feedbacks, this is not very efficient, all things considered.
A better alternative may be that of running smaller squads in rhinos + supporting characters.
Did you give the rhinos DR? And how many plague bearers did you summon?
Mini Wargamming did a 9th ed battle rep with DG vs Mechanicus using a large footslogging DG horde style army. The DG player played them really poorly admittedly (never watched one of their battle reports before but I got the feeling he was newish to the game the way he used the DG), but it illustrated perfectly why A. Foot slogging DG will be a tough go, and B. Mechanicus is poised to be a top army.
The huge horde of marines took half the game to get to center table where they got promptly and easily shot clean off the board. The DG player didn't have enough units to claim objectives and what he did have was ungodly slow. The Mechanicus player had a gun castle in a corner and a bunch of MSU obsec squads running around the board to get the objectives (of which, he claimed most AND hit his secondaries).
In my few games of 9th using the DG, I would definitely say that if you want obsec, it's PMs in Rhinos with character support. Anything else (anything w/obsec that is) is too slow. Even if your fleshmowers and winged DPs succeed in pushing someone off an objective, you still need to claim as many others as possible, and heaven help you if you are footslogging AND going second. That's probably pretty close to an auto-lose in my opinion.
I did not give the Rhinos DR. I just needed them to live long enough to get the PMs close enough to objectives (which they generally did), and I really only summoned about 20 demons. Nothing crazy. Played about 10 games of 9th now, and I find that if you go first, get two or three objectives turn 1 and hold them through 2, it's almost impossible for your opponent to catch up, so I really only need just enough obsec to keep holding at least two for two turns. Then it gets really hard for the other player to come back the way these get scored.
EDIT:
Interesting side note, I've found myself more willing to let people target things like my DPs so far. Like throwing a DP/Fleshmower combo at them immediately, and popping Cloud of Flies on one of my Rhinos while trying to use cover to protect the other Rhino (as much as possible) with terrain. So that's been fun. It's definitely shifted my play style which is kind of cool.
Are predators still garbage competitively? I notice they clock in under 12 Wounds so its only 1CP per for DR - also with some of the changes to hit modifiers the worst a predator will shoot at is 4+ (prior to degrading) whereas before it was stacking lightning fast reflexes and every negative hit modifer under the sun. Finally, the lack of an invul is hamstringing as they are just magnets for big guns which all have -4 or higher AP and blow them off the table in one turn - but the Noxious blightbringer has a relic for a 5++ => I think the math makes the unit 100% more wounds when combined with the DR.
If you go first and manage to keep the predators relatively close DG also have a nice strat for the +1 W +1 D against vehicles in a more 'elite' meta. Finally, Predator price went up below the average (13%) for the new addition. Alongside a decrease in lascannon cost to 20 points from 25... If we compare the 'new' cost of the predator I think it clocks in at 175 points (including havoc launcher) for 4 lascannons - compared with havocs which for much fewer wounds, lower toughness, etc. come out to a 'new' cost of 165(?) for 4 lascannons, maybe intriguing.
Another way of looking at this is that entropy cannon PBC is 160 (i think) for 2 shots at 4+ (although of course comes with the benefit of the blast weapon mortar and being 8T with DR and invul built in).
A layer to consider is if possible to fit the 'plague' pistol in at 15 inches it only needs to hit (not wound) - maybe off a deepstriking unit to give lascannons rerolls to 1?
Despite all this not convinced yet (shows the dire state of predators - also the investment of a relic and 3 CP up front on top of the points) but i'm wondering if maybe there is a place for quad lascannon predators for DG where traditionally have struggled for anti-vehc?
Be interested to see your lists Tycho? With all the options we now have I'm struggling to make it all fit!
My DG games were played at the "New 2000" so it's like *roughly* 1850 in 8th ed points. They all center around 2 PM squads in Rhinos with either Plague surgeon and FBS or Psyker and FBS. Then the classic Winged DP and two Flesh Mowers which feels so far like it still works really well. That's pretty much the core, then I'm building the rest around counters to threats.
So last game, knowing I'd be playing shooty mechanicus I saved a bunch 'o points for demon summoning to get a screen. I've also played with multiple crawlers which are still good but honestly, I feel like I'm preferring more and more to run MORE flesh mowers and fewer mortars. This edition so far is pretty much "40k meets Taladega Nights" and it's all about that speed.
EDIT:
Meant to add, if I get more time later I'll plug the list in!
The guys playing in the MWG batrep are both old time players of their respective factions... but compared to what other people are doing, MWGs batreps have not been great for ages now.
On topic: thoughts on footslogging Blightlord Terminators for one flank? Slow on one, fast on the other... might be fast enough overall? I feel DS with them is too risky, at least against competent opponents.
Given the 4" move and half advance I don't see much value in footslogging blightlords. I take a unit now and will continue to do so in 9th, in fact, probably even more often in 9th.
Deepstrike has two uses now in 9th that will be critical. First is to grab a home objective you either lost or you need to reinforce. Second use is to go bully an enemy's backfield objective they left a crappy unit on or even just to force them to turn around and deal with them.
They can shoot, they can CC, and they are super durable. But footslogging is a great way to waste them IMHO.
The guys playing in the MWG batrep are both old time players of their respective factions... but compared to what other people are doing, MWGs batreps have not been great for ages now.
Wow ...
On topic: thoughts on footslogging Blightlord Terminators for one flank? Slow on one, fast on the other... might be fast enough overall? I feel DS with them is too risky, at least against competent opponents.
I haven't tried that yet but I've thought about it. The way things have worked out so far, one person almost always has one objective that is only very tenuously under their control. Blightlords seem like they would be great at stealing that away.
Yeah, but even if said objective is not screened at all, you DS them there and then you are stuck with your 27% 9" charge. If you don't make it, you need to wait to the next turn to control it, and thus wait two turns to score it.
Hhmm... I am going to check out the leaked battleplans to figure out how far you need to go on which missions.
Yeah, but even if said objective is not screened at all, you DS them there and then you are stuck with your 27% 9" charge. If you don't make it, you need to wait to the next turn to control it, and thus wait two turns to score it.
Hhmm... I am going to check out the leaked battleplans to figure out how far you need to go on which missions.
So why I'm not prepared to say "no" to this tactic is because I think they have the ability to "push". Thanks to War of the Spider, their firepower is pretty good, and if you equip 1 with the flail, they become a real problem if they ever do get to melee. So however you bring them on (deepstrike, reserve etc), if you can start them close enough, the opponent is going to HAVE to deal with them at some point. While each turn they get a little closer. You would need to use them on the right (lightly defended) objective, but I can see them being a legitimate distraction carnifex. You basically just have to target an objective that you and your opponent both know they're going to claim if they make it to CC, and meanwhile potentially soft enough that they could clear it with shooting and simply deny the opponent the points.
So let's see... 40mm objective markers, and you measure to the nearest point of the marker not the center, gives you 0.8" of leeway, lol.
Distances required to claim objective:
- only noting objectives in neutral zone
- moving the distance also means you have a 5" charge to any enemy unit that holds said objective, move less and the charge gets longer
If the missions from the Grand Tournament 2020 book follow a similar pattern with 9" being the most common distance it looks perfectly fine. Advance first turn and that's it.
Poxwalkers up front and Bellboy behind. With the Poxwalkers you need a 3+ on the advance roll, otherwise you are in trouble, lol (need one more inch because of the 25mm base).
Your obsec units are very slow and won't have staying power. Also, this list is really short ranged outside of the Demon engines. The way 9th works, many armies will be able to dance circles around this. You will be second to objectives every time, and you don't have enough offensive punch to reliably push anyone off the table.
I really think this is going to be an edition where Plague Marines in Rhinos shine. I would try to get two MSU squads in to this.Throw a FBS in each as well for extra close-in support and maybe two winged DPs instead of the LoC which is bad in 8th and only looking to be worse in 9th IMO.
I just can’t see the value in PMs any longer. They are utterly blown off the table against almost against any army. Maybe if they had 2 wounds, but they lack speed, offense, and defensive capabilities. I’d much rather have a 125 pt drone with fleshmower on an objective or flying 10” to take one. Everything else seems faster, more killh, and can take much more damage This list honestly hits very hard with all the PBC buffs and it infuriates my opponent trying to get past a 10W, T7, 4++, and 5+++ save. I have won all 5 of my 9th edition games handedly using it.
Sadly, I think across the board with maybe the exception being intercessors all troops are over priced in 9th.
On a side note does anyone know the cost of a Contemptor Dreadnought with dual butcher cannons in 9th?
I understand your sentiments to an extent, but it's worth pointing out that a drone will lose the objective to five guardsmen. The less obsec you have and the less models in your list in general the easier it will be for your opponent to beat you by having more models around the map than it would be for him to try to actually kill you. At that point you are no longer playing to death guard's strengths.
There's rumblings of people trying to throw 50 to 60 assault intercessors up the field. Against an army like that, trying to rely on our fast attack and heavy support choices to hold points does not seem like a winning strategy.
I guess that would depend on how reliable a Fleshmower Drone is at killing Intercessors. At first glance, the profile seems like it’s make to literally mow them down, but a deeper read of a single strat makes it seem a lot more ambiguous: Transhuman Physiology. Before that strat the drones would be wounding on 2s rerolling ones, after they are hitting on 4s rerolling 1s. We don’t have enough offensive buffs to make a single drone able to sweep even 5 intercessors off of an objective reliability, unless someone else has done this math already and I’m wrong.
Checking the math:
3+6+1 attacks
hit 5
wound 2.5 + 0.2083 = 2.7083
failed saves = 1.805
So even with a daemon prince nearby or putrefying blades you can expect roughly two dead intercessors.
While you could starting stacking buffs on the one drone, using them in pairs is probably the way to go.
Jidmah wrote: Checking the math:
3+6+1 attacks
hit 5
wound 2.5 + 0.2083 = 2.7083
failed saves = 1.805
So even with a daemon prince nearby or putrefying blades you can expect roughly two dead intercessors.
While you could starting stacking buffs on the one drone, using them in pairs is probably the way to go.
Sorry the fleshmower also gives +2 strength so you are wounding on 2+ and rerolling ones since it is a plague weapon. On average you will do 7.5 wounds to the intercessor squad killing 3-4 each round of combat. They are very good at this. If they get an extra AP (as you can do with strategems and relics nearby you will do 9.4 wounds killing 4-5 models. They are very good for 125pts and your opponent has one turn to deal
With 2-3 of them charging at his lines before they start destroying their lines.
Running mass t7 and t8 models with DR is surely viable, it’s a type of skew list that will really give the average player some trouble because so many type of weapons are just ineffective against them. In higher level play, good lists are able to down a knight or two in a single turn, meaning mass t7 might just be rolled. I think point for point MBHs are very efficient choices in terms of durability, less so in terms of offensive output. Give them a try! I only haven’t done so because I own just three of the puppies!
i never see the point of MBH beside the cost...yoou have defilers PBC and FBD lot more powerful, ironclot furnace DP and you can try, is a list that might crush lot of opponent but of course might fall short against some specific list geared against massed veichles, anyway is more easy talk then really deal with 9 T7+ DR and 4++ inv veichles...lot of lists just cant. Now you can start score points turn1 and then take control of mid field, dislodge you from there isn't easy, perhaps i would play a less extreme list, using 2 or 3 squads of plague in rhino, This is what i tried
AS lists have been slightly nerfed. Not to mention in competitive play the person running DG (and they are in a VERY good spot to maybe see top tables at LVO) are not going to be so dumb as to allow an alpha strike army to pick apart their DG.
It's really hard to gauge the meta. All the people that have access to the rules early and points costs (barring leaks on the internet) are playtesters for GW and unless they start live streaming LVO style lists and not just lists to entertain, it's going to be a few months until the more competitive players who have to wait until next week to start using everything available in 9th, are able to try to make broken lists.
The problem with running tons of non-obsec t7 or t8 models is that a unit of gaunts can steal an objective away from a single vehicle without so much as firing at said vehicle. Plague marines are going to be extremely valuable this edition I think. I need to experiment with large blobs and blobs 10 or under.
PM's might only have one wound each but with T5 and a 5+++ they are still more durable than most obsec units, even intercessor squads. 2 wounds isn't hard to knock out on a model with no inv whatsoever, let alone lacking FNP and T4. THP costs CP and that marine player may want to use it on something else.
Brymm wrote: PMs in rhinos supported by daemon engines using the 4+ invul strat... that seems like it would just be a pain to handle. Worth a try!
Played “scorched earth’ mission against blood angels tonight using my new 9th Daemon engine list I posted earlier. I let him have first turn and then on my turn uncoiled up both flanks, like a snake killing It’s prey. I held the center with my LoC and 3x PBCs, sent my fleshmowers and DP up one side, and my poxwalkers and blighthaulers up the other side. Foul blightspawns supported both flanks. I then dropped in my 2x units of Deathshroud terminators behind his lines to create multiple dilemmas for him. My lessons learned are as follows:
-3x Deathshroud killed everything they touched and cleared rear objectives and his characters for me before being focused down (solid choice)
-3x PBC create lots of problems against opponents. Their mortars are great for clearing units holding objectives and since PA their entropy cannons hit like a truck!! Plague weapons and <3 damage is huge
-My fleshmower are great at soaking up fire and if they get into combat will kill any character easy. (solid 125pt unit)
-the new relic sword absolutely murders stuff. Every 6 to hit basically becomes 3 hits.
-the new SM relive veterans are insanely good for blood angels to outflank in the assault phase. 3 of them had 16x, STR 5, +1 to wound, -4 AP, 2 damage attacks for only 105pts. They can kill almost anything.
Overall, I had basically cleared the table of the red corpse god worshipers by turn 4.
Brymm wrote: PMs in rhinos supported by daemon engines using the 4+ invul strat... that seems like it would just be a pain to handle. Worth a try!
I'm still wondering about how many PM to bring. Some playtesters swore by unit sizes of 10, but I've run into the issue of plasma cannons having a field day blowing up plague marine unit of 6+ models because the get the full number of shots against them, as do all other d3 blast weapons.
Following on from my relic question the other day, i think i have to accept it's gonna be a straight choice between the Ironclot Furnace and the Daemon's Toll.
Thing is, thinking about significant units in my army that would benefit from the 5++ it's only really plague marines, rhinos and a helbrute and my rhinos and plague marines are going to probably be splitting off towards objectives early on.
i know I'm probably gonna have a daemon engine core of at least a couple of PBCs and MBHs so I know I'll get use out of a 4++ on engines so I'm leaning towards Ironclot furnace.
If i was being greedy and taking a third relic it'll cost me 2CP. But for 2CP, if i really want to protect things like a rhino/helbrute I'm probably better off giving them disgustingly resilient aren't i? Then I don't have to worry about auras or taking a bellboy.
But does anyone actually have the maths for which is more effective a 5++ or a 5+++ in certain situations? Or at the very least a rough estimate. I'm not even sure how to go about it!
It normally takes 9 SM lascannon shots to kill a rhino. If your rhino has a 5++ it will take 11 lascannon shots to destroy it. If you have DR it takes 13 lascannon a to kill your rhino. If you take both the invul save and DR it takes 16 lascannon shots to destroy your rhino. Meaning if you have both it is about a 50% additional heath pool for those rhinos. If you have to choose between DR and an invul always go for the DR. It works against all damage not just the high AP stuff
Firstly thank you that's exactly what I wanted to know. Secondly wow, even without the buffs it never feels like it takes as many shots as that, maybe I'm just unlucky...
That's made me tempted to put DR on a rhino and even give it a havoc launcher and combi melta or something lol.
Had my last outing with 8th at a tourney yesterday. Decided to take Morty, a battalion detachment of his Chosen Sons, and a patrol of Alpha Legion. Lost the first against Tzeentch demons, won the second against Black Templars, and lost the third against Necrons.
It was my first games of any form of Warhammer since before the nationwide lockdown and I was very rusty. Not detracting from my opponent's skill mind. I'll be glad to see the back of 8th though, to be honest. Too point and click for my tastes. Roll on 9th!
blackmage wrote: better play rhinos without upgrades they need to last 1 turn after all
I would normally agree with you, but having paid a CP to boost it's durability, I'm inclined to gamble that it does indeed complete it's job and then i have a T7 vehicle driving around with a melta gun that my opponent will be forced to deal with even if it's empty
I just can’t see the value in PMs any longer. They are utterly blown off the table against almost against any army. Maybe if they had 2 wounds, but they lack speed, offense, and defensive capabilities. I’d much rather have a 125 pt drone with fleshmower on an objective or flying 10” to take one. Everything else seems faster, more killh, and can take much more damage This list honestly hits very hard with all the PBC buffs and it infuriates my opponent trying to get past a 10W, T7, 4++, and 5+++ save. I have won all 5 of my 9th edition games handedly using it.
Sadly, I think across the board with maybe the exception being intercessors all troops are over priced in 9th.
For most of 8th ed I would have 100% agreed with your statement there on PMs. But ever since War of the Spider, I really think they're worth it. Putting them in Rhinos fixes the speed problem, and now have many ways to make them both more survivable and hit harder.
As the 9th ed rules were getting leaked, there were a number of people saying "troops won't see the table in 9th" and I was definitely in agreement, but having played a bunch of games, they actually seem MORE important. Unless I missed something (and I may have so if I did let me know), Demon Engines can't do things like "Raise the Banner", "Siphon Power" etc etc. As mentioned, they also lack Obsec.
I still think Fleshmowers are key, but bringing small squads of cultists and walkers is probably going to set you up for some frustrating games as you play more of 9th. But them, it technically hasn't even started yet so who knows? lol
PMs in rhinos supported by daemon engines using the 4+ invul strat... that seems like it would just be a pain to handle. Worth a try!
The more I play, the more I'm leaning towards this honestly. Throwing Fleshmowers in someone's face on turn 1 while PMs in Rhinos claim objectives just feels ... right. lol
Why shouldn't daemon engines be able to perform actions? Objective secured only matter for deciding who controls an objective.
Because some of the better ones require you to be an infantry unit specifically. We haven't played with all of them yet, so I'm sure there's ones that don't, but the ones that seem good at the outset require infantry. Raise the Flag in particular mentions it, and it's really powerful if you already have obsec units sitting on objectives.
Small units of Poxwalkers or cultists are best for this.
This edition is extremely unkind to light infantry. You mentioned not wanting to use PMs because they were slow and easy to kill. Walkers and Cultists are much slower and easier to kill than the PMs are. In some ways Poxwalkers are ideal because you can can them on an objective and perform an action and there's no opportunity cost. They weren't going to shoot or cast a power anyway, but if it's walkers by themsevles? They aren't going to last very long. You would need so many squads of them I think ....
But who knows. I've played about 13 games at this point and seen a ton of reports and that's about it. We could both easily end up wrong once the edition really gets going.
I think Cloud of Flies is going to be the key to making our infantry work for us. Units like Poxwalkers even at 10 man size can be great “action” units to score points if you can get them there, Cloud and do the action. If some some reason they do end up getting shot by a unit , they need to be shot to a man to stop them due to being fearless. So I think there could be play there, again because they literally will be doing nothing else like shooting or casting.
Another note: is a land raider with C Monstrosity still as bad as it looks for points? Compared to a PBC they just seem so underpowered, untough and over costed. Is there some way they can get an invulnerable save?
I think Cloud of Flies is going to be the key to making our infantry work for us. Units like Poxwalkers even at 10 man size can be great “action” units to score points if you can get them there, Cloud and do the action. If some some reason they do end up getting shot by a unit , they need to be shot to a man to stop them due to being fearless. So I think there could be play there, again because they literally will be doing nothing else like shooting or casting.
Yeah., Cloud of Flies is going to be huge again this edition. Even more so than 8th. Part of the problem though is that it's actually fairly easy to get close enough to work around it in a lot of cases, and since you can only use it once per turn, you will have other objectives able to be shot at. Even a 10 man squad isn't too hard to kill for a lot of things, and broxus is talking about using units potentially even smaller than that.
In an edition where we're likely to see, in a regular basis, Impulsors run up the table to dump assault Intercessors that hit hard as hell and count as troops, unsupported Poxwalkers are going to get mulched most of the time I think.
RE: the Landraider -
I wish I could make those work. lol The Crusader on the Imperial side has some potential play in the right list but ours ... ours is pretty bad IMO. Personally, I find it difficult to get my Death Shroud into combat via DS because of how slow they are - you pretty much need a lucky roll or to have a allied sorcerer there for Warptime (or to have your opponent make a dumb mistake), so I've tried running them in a Land Raider, but man, it's just so many points ...
Seems like it still makes sense to deep strike the Deathshroud, they might not make the charge (much lower in 9th with the CP reroll change) but they can land anywhere within reason, deny an area somewhere, be in the back field, take the enemies home objective, etc. It seems like we should transport stuff without another reasonable transport ability and wouldn’t mind being close, like Plague Marines, biologous putrifiers and Foul Blightspawn.
It seems though 3-4 Rhinos cost the same amount of points and are many more wounds and can all drive in different directions.
If you were taking moration's chosen sons for the better nartheticum anyway, you can also use their other stratagem combined with the +ranged stratagem to flame something right out of deep strike with D2 flamers.
That’s right. That seems to be the way to run them.
I’m in a spot wether it’s better to go just one large detachment to save command points or run 2 separate ones to use Chosen Ones for my troops and Poxmongers for my daemon engines. I haven’t worked out the points super accurate yet but it seems I run out of points in a hurry.
For a Blighthauler and PBC spam list (alongside a bell GUO) is Epidemus worth it? It seems like giving all my engines rerolls of 1 to hit and +1 toughness is TASTY.
He might be, but who is carrying your ironclot furnace? It seems like it's probably a prince anyway, so the reroll 1s isn't a big deal. Still, I guess you might spread out later.
drakerocket wrote: He might be, but who is carrying your ironclot furnace? It seems like it's probably a prince anyway, so the reroll 1s isn't a big deal. Still, I guess you might spread out later.
Yeah a DP. Also, all the other bonuses are quite nice too(strength 8 flamers on the PBCs heck yeah) so its not JUST for those 2 buffs alone.
Brymm wrote: I think Cloud of Flies is going to be the key to making our infantry work for us. Units like Poxwalkers even at 10 man size can be great “action” units to score points if you can get them there, Cloud and do the action. If some some reason they do end up getting shot by a unit , they need to be shot to a man to stop them due to being fearless. So I think there could be play there, again because they literally will be doing nothing else like shooting or casting.
Another note: is a land raider with C Monstrosity still as bad as it looks for points? Compared to a PBC they just seem so underpowered, untough and over costed. Is there some way they can get an invulnerable save?
The bellboy relic will give you a 5++ not sure it helps much tbh unless you're getting hit by a lot of melta?
Brymm wrote: I thought that was only infantry!? I need a reread!
Nah just says deathguard units. Although there isn't actually a huge amount of relevant deathguard units that don't have a 5++ already. Plague Marines, Rhinos & Helbrutes I think.
Brymm wrote: I thought that was only infantry!? I need a reread!
Nah just says deathguard units. Although there isn't actually a huge amount of relevant deathguard units that don't have a 5++ already. Plague Marines, Rhinos & Helbrutes I think.
Also predators, landraiders and chaos spawn. Poxwalkers and culstists are excluded though.
Well would be useful if the Castellen/Tyrant makes a comeback. Having a save on any form of vehicle, be it a rhino or land raider, versus a Valcano Lance or that Harpoon, can swing the game your way.
If you were taking moration's chosen sons for the better nartheticum anyway, you can also use their other stratagem combined with the +ranged stratagem to flame something right out of deep strike with D2 flamers.
lol1
I have been using Mortarion's Chosen Sons almost exclusively and completely overlooked/forgot about that strat for the flamers! Good call!
RE: The Demon's Toll -
Yeah, it can be used on a bunch of stuff. I have been sticking the Bell Boy in the Rhino with the Suped-Up Plague Surgeon. It covers him and the PMs so it makes the unit pretty hard to kill, but there are a lot of other potential uses for it.
What do people think is a good amount to spend on CP before a game? Most lists I'm building I normally stop at about 7, leaving about 5 to start the game with.
I really hope that some of our strategems (e.g. Contaminated Monstrosity) get rolled into datasheets when our 9th codex gets released. Kinda resent spending CP on things which I feel we should naturally have.
lare2 wrote: What do people think is a good amount to spend on CP before a game? Most lists I'm building I normally stop at about 7, leaving about 5 to start the game with.
I really hope that some of our strategems (e.g. Contaminated Monstrosity) get rolled into datasheets when our 9th codex gets released. Kinda resent spending CP on things which I feel we should naturally have.
most depend what kind of list you play, some need cp's to work, some other less, a full veichle list dont need much cp's for example, an infantry one usually lot more. For example i tested 2 lists, one full mechanized and i spend more or less 6-7 cp pregame, ad one with 40 plague marines and i spend 3-4.
Really hoping the new Codex gives more things DR, and would love to see DG get Daemonforge, could really help our Daemon Engines. The Defiler is so close to being good. With Daemonforge, could be really scary!
I think having DR across the board at that point would become our legion trait. I, for one, don’t want that. I want DR on the stuff that has it and don’t mind having to pay CP for it. I want a better version of a legion trait that will affect all units in our army like the newer Space Marines ones do.
Or if DR becomes the legion trait, then the Plague Companies should have individual army wide bonuses, but since that was in PA about 2 months ago, I won’t hold my breath.
vaklor4 wrote: For a Blighthauler and PBC spam list (alongside a bell GUO) is Epidemus worth it? It seems like giving all my engines rerolls of 1 to hit and +1 toughness is TASTY.
Don Hooson seems to think so. He put forth a list of DG conserving just enough points to summon old Epi turn 1. I liked the list a fair bit.
how about our helbrute with DR and march with blighbringer with relic that give invul 5++, is it worth?
if they do then which weapon they should equip?
I'm interested as to what people think are the most effective Plague Marine squad arrangements for 9th. My questions are mainly about:
i) Are MSU, mid-size, or large squads viable?. Looking through lists people have been proposing for 9th, I see many 5 man squads, but I've yet to see anyone thinking about 7-10 mid-size, or even larger.
ii) Regarding a ranged squad, are people thinking plasma guns, blight launchers, or just bolters?
iii) Regarding CC squads, what kind of load outs will people go for? Do people prefer plague axes or double combat knives, or a mixture of both? And is it the case that Flails are the only more expensive items worth getting? Do people still think some of the flamer weapons are good on such a squad? Does squad size affect this?
My two cents: surprisingly I think the sacred number 7 is the right squad size for not only fluff, but for actual efficiency. I have played both triple plasma and double blight launcher / plasma champion. When I ran 5 man squads in the beginning of the edition, they were rarely shot at and when they were, they required a lot more fire than the opponent expected. Now, you can’t hide behind that they will just be ignored: the opponent has to shoot your ob sec units or they lose. So I recommend some meat on the unit, keep those extra bodies as bullet catchers and keep the guys with real guns shooting.
When it comes to which weapons, I think Blight Launchers are better about every situation, especially since you end up getting a plasma every squad on the champion anyways. Blight Launchers are plague weapons and get buffed by so many things in our army that we end up taking.
Are there any advantages to using a regular Chaos lord in a DG army? I was going to have one possibly for my warlord, but with the PA rules, is that still worth it?
ArcaneHorror wrote: Are there any advantages to using a regular Chaos lord in a DG army? I was going to have one possibly for my warlord, but with the PA rules, is that still worth it?
They're cheap. If you need a reroll 1 aura and you're running low on pts they're perfect. It's not always a necessity to give him DR as well so he might not be costing you a CP.
Brymm wrote: My two cents: surprisingly I think the sacred number 7 is the right squad size for not only fluff, but for actual efficiency. I have played both triple plasma and double blight launcher / plasma champion. When I ran 5 man squads in the beginning of the edition, they were rarely shot at and when they were, they required a lot more fire than the opponent expected. Now, you can’t hide behind that they will just be ignored: the opponent has to shoot your ob sec units or they lose. So I recommend some meat on the unit, keep those extra bodies as bullet catchers and keep the guys with real guns shooting.
When it comes to which weapons, I think Blight Launchers are better about every situation, especially since you end up getting a plasma every squad on the champion anyways. Blight Launchers are plague weapons and get buffed by so many things in our army that we end up taking.
I can echo this. Originally, I started playing them as 7 for fluff reasons, but whenever I went down to 5 to save points I lost my special weapons too quickly, not enough grenades to make the combo worthwhile or failed to have enough punch to retaliate after getting charged.
I am looking into fielding units of 10 though, as the bolter stratagems combo (plague weapons/rapid fire 2/VotLW) is pretty sweet and becomes a lot better with every additional marine you have.
A single units of 20 has worked well for me in the past, and with daemon's toll and the improved apothecary they might have become even more difficult to shift. Will try them again eventually.
for the few feedback and playtest guess there will be two main way to run DG, plague marines spam (40-50 plague mixed in rhino and foot) and pure demonic engines kind of Don Hooson list.
With the War of the Spider changes alongside 9th, has anyone looked at foot daemon princes?
Given the objective focus of 9th, I feel less of a need to have the extra mobility but am wondering if I'm missing something. Don't have any wingless models to try it out with...
The funny part is i've been doing Engine spam with a GUO for 2 years now (not constantly, just a side list) and now that my usual list has became garbage in 9th, this list is suddenly incredible!
What would people say about Bloat Drones with flamers? A lot of people are stuck using them due to the mono-build dark imperium ones. Are they even remotely as good as the melee or heavy options?
Of course they are. The only benefit they lost in 9th is related to FLY, in that they can’t fall back and shoot, which affects both the flamer drones and blight launcher drones. But now the flamers can fire in combat, reducing the need to fall back and flame. The bloat drone can still advance and fire , giving it that 20-25” threat range. The points went up a little bit but I think they are fairly priced.
The thing is the Fleshmower drones are priced VERY competitively.
New Character? teased at the end of the reveal - looks to be another flamer wielder. Time for.some rampant speculation!
An alternative FB or something new?
Dedwoods42 wrote: New Character? teased at the end of the reveal - looks to be another flamer wielder. Time for.some rampant speculation!
An alternative FB or something new?
I hope daemon prince but reckon it'll be something completely new.
vaklor4 wrote: The funny part is i've been doing Engine spam with a GUO for 2 years now (not constantly, just a side list) and now that my usual list has became garbage in 9th, this list is suddenly incredible!
What would people say about Bloat Drones with flamers? A lot of people are stuck using them due to the mono-build dark imperium ones. Are they even remotely as good as the melee or heavy options?
nothing to do with a GUO that list, but epidemius eventually
One guess that I saw which made sense was a Lord of Poxes, alternative to LoC with a plague Spewere and power fist in terminator armor (based on the rumor engine pics)
New daemon prince would be sweet, because both official versions are... meh... but it doesn't look like one at all. I'll go with the new Lord guess.
vaklor4 wrote: The funny part is i've been doing Engine spam with a GUO for 2 years now (not constantly, just a side list) and now that my usual list has became garbage in 9th, this list is suddenly incredible!
What would people say about Bloat Drones with flamers? A lot of people are stuck using them due to the mono-build dark imperium ones. Are they even remotely as good as the melee or heavy options?
nothing to do with a GUO that list, but epidemius eventually
Oh, not the tourny list, no. My list basically swaps out Mortarian and the defilers for 6 Blight Hauelrs and a GUO.
I agree, I get a feeling melta will be good in a lot of armies, including ours. They play into the Rhino-objective-rush strategy where you could run a squad or two of minimum sized PMs with double melta and plasma champ to support the main thrust, turn 2 they can hop out 3 in front of the rhino and melta range some juicy vehicles, but most likely enemy transports .
for MSU deathguard spam.... I get this feeling that all my melta dudes might as well as stay in the box. Anyone else feeling too?
A lot of our games are becoming 3rd ed style "Rhino Rush" type games, so I would say melta may be on the verge of a come-back.
I can echo this. Originally, I started playing them as 7 for fluff reasons, but whenever I went down to 5 to save points I lost my special weapons too quickly, not enough grenades to make the combo worthwhile or failed to have enough punch to retaliate after getting charged.
I am looking into fielding units of 10 though, as the bolter stratagems combo (plague weapons/rapid fire 2/VotLW) is pretty sweet and becomes a lot better with every additional marine you have.
A single units of 20 has worked well for me in the past, and with daemon's toll and the improved apothecary they might have become even more difficult to shift. Will try them again eventually.
Me 3. I was playing with 5 man squads so that blast weapons wouldn't get the extra push (for the squad being above 6), but I've gone back to 7 as well for all the same reasons as above.
I'll be heading to Warhammer World next month and feel the need to buy my first piece of resin. What do people think about Leviathans these days? Dual butcher seems crazy expensive now. Was thinking of maybe one and basic melee with the other arm. The intention is to have it sit in my deployment, protecting an objective and pumping out dakka.
The biggest issue is our IA already allowed dreadnaughts to ignore the move and hit penalty which at times made them a value. However, now that everyone gets it, we have to pay lots of extra points for it and the value has decrease.
On a side note, IA is now officially the most useless chapter trait in the game.
vaklor4 wrote: For a Blighthauler and PBC spam list (alongside a bell GUO) is Epidemus worth it? It seems like giving all my engines rerolls of 1 to hit and +1 toughness is TASTY.
He’s a sideways step. Different. He’s a decent aura generator in his own right, and scarecrows most deep insertion units that lack a melee beatstick. You’ve got one fewer actual attack unit, but your DP’s become disposable missiles as he can cover all your daemon engines. My DG-Word Bearers-ND Daemonkin list used him and he was perfectly viable. Better in big games, though - in smaller games, that one fewer fast/shooty unit matters and he often fails to reach critical mass.
Had couple of practise games 500/1000 points yesterday, few takes.
I used the Mortarion's chosen sons and got access to vomixtrix relic flamer on foul blightspawn, made him the warlord with arch contaminator and drove around with plague marines in a rhino. That's a nice flamer have to say. My blightlord termies I deep struck to get some shots against priority targets, but lacking the ability to move, my last 3 turns with 4" move was way too slow. You need to deep strike them on or atleast near an objective. The rapid fire 3 stratagem was nice though. They bumb a lot of shots. Eradicators are a curse for plague burstcrawlers, 30" range with their 6 melta shots, ultarmarines Tigurius giving them -1 to hit aura and chapter master and lieutenant for rerolls was a castle hard to breach. Eradicators downed my plague burstcrawler into 1 wound from the first volley of shots. I'll certainly will look into bringing more plague burstcrawlers in bigger games and giving a try for entropy cannons. In the smaller 500 game the foetid bloat-drone tanked and overwatch sanguinary guard's charge and finishing them off on the following shooting phase. Both games I had a myphitic blight hauler, but it didn't do anything before it died.
Planning a new list for the first game of 9th. I am conflicted on whether to go with Daemon Prince with or without wings. If with, then what to take out of the list. Also I am a bit open on what plague company to take.
The idea is that the DP will move forward with the trio of crawlers to put pressure to the enemy. Plasma marines will foot slog and open up to opponents in midfield. The melee marines will go with the Foul Blightspawn to the Rhino and drive forward as fast as possible. Finally the LoC and Blightlords will deepstrike and support the aggressive push made by the melee marines and crawlers.
The idea is not to be super competitive (and I don't have Terrax Drill), but we do try to play as well as we can.
chaos PA are nearly unplayable unless you play less competive games, expensive, 1 single wound, no great doctrines/abilities, any time a new edition came out, chaos players try to play PA like loyalist marines and always fail, 9th will be no different, i alreday have some games and really pa sucks tons. Chaos have better choices in heavy support and elite and characters, not sure power armors.The only playble pa are terminators, no reason to play large blobs or plagues over a 10 man unit of blightlords supported by spawn, they are impossible to charge and hard to dislodge with firepower, pm die easily.
It's sad to say but I'm thinking along the same lines. At first I was excited by War of the Spider and it does give some neat tricks to PM but I reckon they'll still die super quick. Hopefully the new codex will help but for now I'm thinking my troops will be nurglings.
lare2 wrote: It's sad to say but I'm thinking along the same lines. At first I was excited by War of the Spider and it does give some neat tricks to PM but I reckon they'll still die super quick. Hopefully the new codex will help but for now I'm thinking my troops will be nurglings.
nurglins are one of best troops in the game actually, cheap, annoying and surprisingly resilients for just 18 poinst/model, with nurgling infestation they are a pain in the ass, add an herald with fleshy abundance e they are 100 times better than any Pm to hold obiectivem and they dont need a rhino, they are on obectives turn 1. If i play demons i would play at least 25 of them, they give the quick board control you need.
I think in this edition, Rhino based PMs are gonna be the bees knees. They are entirely different and fill a different role than Nurglings and I don’t think they are mutually exclusive.
Hey guys.. Old Chaos player looking to maybe play some DG this year. Been a bit busy and im hoping yall could help me out with a quick shopping list, so I can get started painting asap.
Dr.Duck wrote: Hey guys.. Old Chaos player looking to maybe play some DG this year. Been a bit busy and im hoping yall could help me out with a quick shopping list, so I can get started painting asap.
Try hunting down two sets of the 8th edition starter sets before they disappear - you get very good value out of them and a decent starting army.
Have anyone considered using Chaos spawns. I've ordered 5 Chtulhu daemons that I will use as Spawns since the GW ones are way to expensive and ugly and my first 2 conversions looked horrible.
For 115 pts you get 20W, T5, 5+++ (with strat). With 4W a piece and fnp a lot of anti tank fire is pretty ineffective against them.
You also get 1D6+1 (+random spawn effect) attacks on charge with ap-2 d2. Although hitting on 4+.
I see them as a great independent working unit that can clear and hold an objective on the flank.
blackmage wrote: i run demon battalion cause DG troops arent good that is the only reason
Its not hard to get PM with T5, 3+5++ and DR4+ one unit of 20 and I don't see them going away anytime fast.
I don't really feel Daemon's Toll for PM. -3AP weapons aren't gonna be targeting your PM. 3CP for Putrid Fecundity is pretty hefty as well.
You can make them T7 with Putrescent Vitality and Fabius Bile. That has crossed my mind. MBH would put them on a 2+, making them potentially T7, 2+, 5++, 4+++. Pretty expensive both points and CP wise though.
blackmage wrote: i run demon battalion cause DG troops arent good that is the only reason
Its not hard to get PM with T5, 3+5++ and DR4+ one unit of 20 and I don't see them going away anytime fast.
I don't really feel Daemon's Toll for PM. -3AP weapons aren't gonna be targeting your PM. 3CP for Putrid Fecundity is pretty hefty as well.
You can make them T7 with Putrescent Vitality and Fabius Bile. That has crossed my mind. MBH would put them on a 2+, making them potentially T7, 2+, 5++, 4+++. Pretty expensive both points and CP wise though.
You will have a type mismatch with that combo... Bile takes his army from Codex: Chaos Space Marines... plague marines there are not death guard infantry, and MBH only provide for death guard infantry. If it did work... yeap, I like it. I figured that 5+ invulnerable is good in case of plasma spam, use inexorable to limit charges, almost makes a case for a heavy flamer in a PM squad. I'm thinking about it anyhow.
Fabius can be brought in a CSM patrol. This way he's still allowed to buff a Death Guard unit. With his little helpers you can then pretty much guarantee a toughness buff... if you wanted.
blackmage wrote: i run demon battalion cause DG troops arent good that is the only reason
Its not hard to get PM with T5, 3+5++ and DR4+ one unit of 20 and I don't see them going away anytime fast.
too much points/cp invested for 1 single wound troop that relay anyway on warptime, i prefer 1 billion time blightlords with same identical role, lot more durable they hit harder and can handle themselves.
Well you will have to use cloud of flies on the PMs to make the big blob work. You will also need to deploy them with care if your opponent gets the first turn which is the most risky part. A blight hauler next to them might be a good idea.
PM blob:
- Tough
- Obsec
- Virulent rounds
- Grenades
- 80 shots with volleys
- Good CC when buffed
- Cheaper
BL "blob":
- Very tough
- Much better antitank with plasma or melta (but very expensive)
- Deep strike
- Can work without multiple buffing characters
- Very good CC when buffed
They both have their place. I'm running 20 PMs and 5 Blighlords in my current list along with Daemon engines (and Chaos spawns when I get them).
Cmdr_Sune wrote: Er, perhaps I'm not allowed to post these links on Dakka, but I can't find anything about it in the rules.
These sellers had some other better ones too, but those were not in stock.
There are no rules against posting links to legal stuff.
Some great models among those. Too bad shipping prices from the US are completely insane right now (regular parcels are ranging somewhere from 120 to 250), so I'll have to wait.
Cmdr_Sune wrote: Er, perhaps I'm not allowed to post these links on Dakka, but I can't find anything about it in the rules.
These sellers had some other better ones too, but those were not in stock.
There are no rules against posting links to legal stuff.
Some great models among those. Too bad shipping prices from the US are completely insane right now (regular parcels are ranging somewhere from 120 to 250), so I'll have to wait.
lare2 wrote: Fabius can be brought in a CSM patrol. This way he's still allowed to buff a Death Guard unit. With his little helpers you can then pretty much guarantee a toughness buff... if you wanted.
I bought Deep Madness just to cannibalize it for Chaos Daemons and Spawn. I'm using the same, though the 7 Sins #13 ended up as a Beast of Nurgle for me. Excellent choices! Incidently, 7 Sins #32 and it's ilk serve pretty well as Plague Toads of Nurgle in my local area and people like them far more than the Forgeworld ones.
First 9th tourney yesterday. 3 games and ran mono death guard. All my daemons are unpainted and I wanted my 10pts. First games of 9th for me as well. Lost all 3 but each one was crazy tight. Even the 2nd game, during which I thought I was getting pummelled, ended up really tight because of the new scoring.
Initial thoughts: love 9th; love terrain; secondaries are very important and should be chosen wisely; must remember to play to the objectives (both primary and secondary); i love having CP to use now; Poxmongers is very good; I dislike fighting Iron Hands!
Are those prices on Ali 10 or so bucks for 1 model?
Unfortunately yes, they are not cheap.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vortenger wrote: I bought Deep Madness just to cannibalize it for Chaos Daemons and Spawn. I'm using the same, though the 7 Sins #13 ended up as a Beast of Nurgle for me. Excellent choices! Incidently, 7 Sins #32 and it's ilk serve pretty well as Plague Toads of Nurgle in my local area and people like them far more than the Forgeworld ones.
Great minds think alike!
Never though about buying a box They do fit DG and Nurgle very well.
I will see how one unit of 5 fares. They do seem to be tough and can punch quite well in CC. My idea for them is to either hold a backfield objective or take a flank objective. Although it is tempting to have them in the 5++ aura, casting Miasma on them and the having Cloude of flies on a PM blob behind them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lare2 wrote: First 9th tourney yesterday. 3 games and ran mono death guard. All my daemons are unpainted and I wanted my 10pts. First games of 9th for me as well. Lost all 3 but each one was crazy tight. Even the 2nd game, during which I thought I was getting pummelled, ended up really tight because of the new scoring.
Initial thoughts: love 9th; love terrain; secondaries are very important and should be chosen wisely; must remember to play to the objectives (both primary and secondary); i love having CP to use now; Poxmongers is very good; I dislike fighting Iron Hands!
Good to hear. What was your list and what armies did you play against?
Actually, if DG wants to take nurglings, it has to take a seperate detachment right? If you just take one nurgle detachment with DG and nurglings, you won't get the DG traits right?
I don't know if being able to take nurglings is worth losing objective secure to be honest. Our armies are not only fairly low model count but also not exactly brimming with firepower.
Not my ideal choice but needs must with what's painted. The idea was the MBH, Plasma PM and a CL were moving forward on one wing. 3 FBD and the DP moved up the other. The PBC blasted everything from the middle whilst the BLT and LoC deepstriked to threaten an objective in the back field.
First game, Scorched Earth, was against a flavour of the month DG list, running 3 defilers and 3 PBC. Wasn't impressed by the defilers. They were tough defensively but their firepower was pretty weak against me. He did finish a lot higher than me so... there you go. Can't face buying them though as they're by far one of the ugliest models in our range. Lost by 2 VP.
Second game was against Iron Hands playing Surround and Destroy. They were tough. He ran some FW tanks which i just couldn't scratch. The rest of his army was intercessors and in hindsight I really should've targeted them. Lost by 15 VP.
Final game was Overrun against Nids. I absolutely destroyed his forces and mowed down countless waves of the little buggers. He barely touched my forces, however, the name of the mission was fitting and I lost out on Primary objectives and lost by 10VP.
As I was learning everything I pretty much went for the same 3 secondaries: raise the banners high, While we stand, we fight, and mental interrogation. Swapped the last one out for teleport homer against Nids but in hindsight it really should've been thin their ranks.
All in, was a great day and I learned a lot of lessons. Roll on the next one.
Not my ideal choice but needs must with what's painted. The idea was the MBH, Plasma PM and a CL were moving forward on one wing. 3 FBD and the DP moved up the other. The PBC blasted everything from the middle whilst the BLT and LoC deepstriked to threaten an objective in the back field.
First game, Scorched Earth, was against a flavour of the month DG list, running 3 defilers and 3 PBC. Wasn't impressed by the defilers. They were tough defensively but their firepower was pretty weak against me. He did finish a lot higher than me so... there you go. Can't face buying them though as they're by far one of the ugliest models in our range. Lost by 2 VP.
Second game was against Iron Hands playing Surround and Destroy. They were tough. He ran some FW tanks which i just couldn't scratch. The rest of his army was intercessors and in hindsight I really should've targeted them. Lost by 15 VP.
Final game was Overrun against Nids. I absolutely destroyed his forces and mowed down countless waves of the little buggers. He barely touched my forces, however, the name of the mission was fitting and I lost out on Primary objectives and lost by 10VP.
As I was learning everything I pretty much went for the same 3 secondaries: raise the banners high, While we stand, we fight, and mental interrogation. Swapped the last one out for teleport homer against Nids but in hindsight it really should've been thin their ranks.
All in, was a great day and I learned a lot of lessons. Roll on the next one.
I have couple of questions. How did your terminators perform? I run exactly similar unit and I'd be interested in your opinion about them. What kind of tactics and support did you use for them? How about Plague marines? Was 5 men enough holding objectives and how did they perform without transports?
So, what is people's opinion on the ferrymen plasma bomb? You could deep strike blightlords with combi-plasma and shoot it at 2+ without any risk of losing models.
Not my ideal choice but needs must with what's painted. The idea was the MBH, Plasma PM and a CL were moving forward on one wing. 3 FBD and the DP moved up the other. The PBC blasted everything from the middle whilst the BLT and LoC deepstriked to threaten an objective in the back field.
First game, Scorched Earth, was against a flavour of the month DG list, running 3 defilers and 3 PBC. Wasn't impressed by the defilers. They were tough defensively but their firepower was pretty weak against me. He did finish a lot higher than me so... there you go. Can't face buying them though as they're by far one of the ugliest models in our range. Lost by 2 VP.
Second game was against Iron Hands playing Surround and Destroy. They were tough. He ran some FW tanks which i just couldn't scratch. The rest of his army was intercessors and in hindsight I really should've targeted them. Lost by 15 VP.
Final game was Overrun against Nids. I absolutely destroyed his forces and mowed down countless waves of the little buggers. He barely touched my forces, however, the name of the mission was fitting and I lost out on Primary objectives and lost by 10VP.
As I was learning everything I pretty much went for the same 3 secondaries: raise the banners high, While we stand, we fight, and mental interrogation. Swapped the last one out for teleport homer against Nids but in hindsight it really should've been thin their ranks.
All in, was a great day and I learned a lot of lessons. Roll on the next one.
Question. Is this 8th edition game or why are you running 2 patrols instead of battalion? You should already have the min HQ and Troops for Battalion.
Regarding BLT, they did alright. They would deepstrke in by themselves and open up with shooting. I'd put VotLW and Relentless Volleys on them, giving them 2 Blightlauncher shots and 18 bolters. Not once did they make their 9" charge.
In the first game, they threatened a unit of 7 PM for an objective. They came in, shot, failed their charge, moved forward 4" next turn, shot, successfully charged and finished off the PM in CC. They held the objective all game after that, shooting what they could and never lost a wound.
Second game, using the same principle, I came in to threaten but they were blown off the board too quickly by some FW tank.
Third game, I brought them down with the LoC in a far corner to protect him whilst he performed Teleport Homer. Their shooting slaughtered Brood and some annoying Venomthropes. A Swarmlord came over though and smacked them off the table in one round of CC. He then destroyed the LoC in the next. In hindsight i wish I'd left the LoC with the PBC as they really missed the rerolling 1s.
The PM were alright. They did the job well as all opponents focused initially on my daemon engines. Once they were targeted, however, they dropped just as easily as in 8th. In truth, defensively they did as good as the pox, raising banners, scoring primary... until they were the focus of attention. The only difference was that the PM can pump out some serious damage.
Special mention to my Blightlauncher PM crew in game 2 however, who refused to die against a unit of assault intercessors and the transport they came over with.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Next game, gonna mix it up as want to summon in a Poxbringer who I feel would be incredibly helpful to keep our PBC at decent health. My tanks rarely died (scored really well on while we stand, we fight) but they didn't half degrade.
Gonna aim for a Death Star approach to control the centre and aim to pull off Psychic Ritual. This coupled with While we Stand, We Fight, should give a decent secondary score. The third can be interchangeable, depending on opponent.
I really feel we're gonna excel with the secondaries which play to our strength of refusing to die.
no one ever consider deathshrouds? for how DG play termies (on table protected by cloud of flies) DS cost less and hit hard anyway. They dominate center table as BL and can perform task like investigate site and deny center to opponent, with blighspawn they are very tricky to assault. Some players got good feedback from them, they just dont shoot and you can get max 6x but in CaC they hit hader 4 attacks str8 ap-3 d d3+1 with strat.
no one ever consider deathshrouds? for how DG play termies (on table protected by cloud of flies) DS cost less and hit hard anyway. They dominate center table as BL and can perform task like investigate site and deny center to opponent, with blighspawn they are very tricky to assault.
I feel like they're way too expensive for tasks like that (investigate, etc), and they're too slow, and they don't have a great threat range. A squad of infiltrated Poxwalkers could do almost the same thing. Personally, I'd rather have the punch the BL's offer. Especially since blobbing up and playing castle type lists isn't likely to be a great strategy this edition, and there's such a focus on speed and being to reach out quickly to kill things. As terminators go, the BLs do that much better IMO.
I find my Cloud of Flies tends to be better off used on PM squads holding key objectives so far this edition, and that I want my terminators disrupting things in the opponents backfield. YMMV of course.
EDIT:
Would also like to echo Jidmah's question on opinions regarding the Ferrymen Plasma bomb.
no one ever consider deathshrouds? for how DG play termies (on table protected by cloud of flies) DS cost less and hit hard anyway. They dominate center table as BL and can perform task like investigate site and deny center to opponent, with blighspawn they are very tricky to assault.
I feel like they're way too expensive for tasks like that (investigate, etc), and they're too slow, and they don't have a great threat range. A squad of infiltrated Poxwalkers could do almost the same thing. Personally, I'd rather have the punch the BL's offer. Especially since blobbing up and playing castle type lists isn't likely to be a great strategy this edition, and there's such a focus on speed and being to reach out quickly to kill things. As terminators go, the BLs do that much better IMO.
I find my Cloud of Flies tends to be better off used on PM squads holding key objectives so far this edition, and that I want my terminators disrupting things in the opponents backfield. YMMV of course.
EDIT:
Would also like to echo Jidmah's question on opinions regarding the Ferrymen Plasma bomb.
guess you dont know how DG terminators are played right now, DS they move as BL, and both are playedon table, no one DS them, you should see how TJ Lanigan play ( and most other DG players) im sure he will completely disagree, poxwalkers are wipped out by anything, do you really play competitive? just asking nothing else.
guess you dont know how DG terminators are played right now, DS they move as BL, and both are playedon table, no one DS them, you should see how TJ Lanigan play ( and most other DG players) im sure he will completely disagree, poxwalkers are wipped out by anything, do you really play competitive? just asking nothing else.
How they're played right now? At the very beginning of 9th? When most people can't actually play, there are no tournaments, and no established meta? Do you mean THAT now? Or do you mean "now" as in 8th edition ... which is kind of "now" but not really "now". Just asking? Nothing else.
A lot of the things you've said (not using Plague Marines, etc) COULD end up being correct, but seem to be geared towards playing in 8th and pre-PA. A lot of it hasn't panned out in the few games I've played/seen played in 9th and post PA, post new points drop. But who knows how it all shakes out in the end. I think it's too early to make too many definitive statements. Over-all, I will say, the more successful DG lists in 9th really don't seem to be blobbing up anymore, and I've found myself that you can create problems with point sinks like that the way these missions are set up, but again, who knows how it all turns out once everyone is actually playing. I'm lucky enough to be in a place where it's safe to play in small garage games with precautions taken. Most can't even do that ...
@blackmage, if you aren't aware I'd like to point out to you that for most of the last pages you have just been berating people for not playing exactly like your "all the DG players" are playing, stating your opinions as absolute truths and not giving any input or explanation besides that.
If you aren't interested in discussions, why are even bother asking questions?
And let's not forget that there are precious few tournaments happening right now, every weekend brings new lists many people didn't see coming for many armies. So any claim that DG or 9th edition has been "solved" must be considered nonsense.
That said, I share Tycho's optinion on deathshrouds. A unit of blightlords is 16 points less, has decent melee weapons themselves and they have meaningful shooting that can be buffed through stratagems, where deathshrouds might as well have none. The main reason to run death shrouds would be to deny assassinate in character-heavy lists or if you want multiple units of 3 to threaten things via deep strike.
A unit of blightlords is 16 points less, has decent melee weapons themselves and they have meaningful shooting that can be buffed through stratagems, where deathshrouds might as well have none.
The main reason to run death shrouds would be to deny assassinate in character-heavy lists or if you want multiple units of 3 to threaten things via deep strike.
Yeah, pretty much this, and even then, there are less expensive ways to protect some characters depending on your list. And I'm someone who desperately WANTS Death Shroud to be good. I just haven't really found a place for them in 9th. I've only played maybe 5 or 6 games w/my DG, but I feel like 9th really abuses the things they're already bad at ...
Of course, that's me coming from a mono-DG standpoint, so I could see it being different if you're souping. Warptime fixes quite a bit for them, but still, IDK how "worth it" they are ...
you may have noticed the results of the first England tournament from last weekend featuring Alex Petford playing a DG/Deamon army and taking 2nd place:
Spoiler:
Alex Petford - Vanguard Tactics Grand Series (2nd Place)
HQ: Daemon Prince of Chaos [9 PL, 200pts]: Malefic talons, Wings, Fleshy Abundance. Nurgle
TR: Nurglings [6 PL, 100pts], 5 x Nurgling Swarms: 5x Diseased claws and teeth
TR: Nurglings [6 PL, 80pts], 4 x Nurgling Swarms: 5x Diseased claws and teeth
TR: Nurglings [6 PL, 80pts], 4 x Nurgling Swarms: 5x Diseased claws and teeth
++ Total: [119 PL, -3CP, 2,000pts] ++
This is exactly the kind of army I would like to play as well: Poxmongers DG with only nurglings as troops. However I have some issues with this list:
1) The "Warlord" detachment is neither a Deamon nor a DG detachment, but a Nurgle detachment "only". This would mean that the nurglings included in this detachment would not get "objective secured" ... right? So there would be 3 Nurgling squads with Obsec (from the Deamon Detachment) and 3 Nurgling squads without Obsec. While this might be confusing and needing some management it is doable I think.
2) How can this army get Poxmonger relics when the warlord is not even contained in a Poxmonger detachment? It's not even a DG detachment. How is this legal? Would this army be able to use Poxmonger Stratagems?
@Stoni42 To me the list you posted should not be legal for the reasons you just posted (2)
Also, I am pondering instead a daemonkin list, using the 4th plague company, the Wretched.
I would like your feedback on two issues.
(i) Necrosius. Reading the lore, he is indeed part of the 4th company. However, in battlescribe I cannot "upgrade" him with the Wretched strat "sevenfold blessing". Likely because he is listed as "The Tainted". Is this correct? Can someone confirm that also in the new Forgeworld books he remains listed as such?
(ii) Has anyone ever tried to couple "sevenfold blessing" and the pandemic staff? The first lets you re-roll one dice per spell, the latter adds +1 for smite. The problem is that we don't have a psycher who is sufficiently resilient and apt to cast to deserve this combo, probably.
The MPC has no inv; the DP casts only 1 power. Maybe a sorcerer in terminator armour?
I know, not the most competitive, but I am just trying to explore all possible new combos
In my playtesting I have found units of Deathshroud are the way to go and hit like a truck. I think they are much better in 9th than normal blightlords especially if facing vehicles. I was talking about this awhile back in this thread and used some math to highlight it.
SatanEatSeitan wrote: (i) Necrosius. Reading the lore, he is indeed part of the 4th company. However, in battlescribe I cannot "upgrade" him with the Wretched strat "sevenfold blessing". Likely because he is listed as "The Tainted". Is this correct? Can someone confirm that also in the new Forgeworld books he remains listed as such?
Named characters don't get the keywords, the only exception is Typhus who can get the harbinger keyword, but it doesn't actually do anything for him.
(ii) Has anyone ever tried to couple "sevenfold blessing" and the pandemic staff? The first lets you re-roll one dice per spell, the latter adds +1 for smite. The problem is that we don't have a psycher who is sufficiently resilient and apt to cast to deserve this combo, probably.
The MPC has no inv; the DP casts only 1 power. Maybe a sorcerer in terminator armour?
You could try using the sevenfold blessing with the relic from the same plague company and just have a malignant plaguecaster drown everything within 7" in mortal wounds. I have found his fallout ability to be decent against agressive armies in the past, but mostly worthless against gunlines. The new game dynamic might result in more enemies ending up within 7" of him. He also isn't easy to remove
I have never found his lack of an invulnerable save to be an issue, in almost all cases things that killed him would have killed a terminator sorcerer just as easy, if not more easy because of the lower toughness.
broxus wrote: In my playtesting I have found units of Deathshroud are the way to go and hit like a truck. I think they are much better in 9th than normal blightlords especially if facing vehicles. I was talking about this awhile back in this thread and used some math to highlight it.
You could try using the sevenfold blessing with the relic from the same plague company and just have a malignant plaguecaster drown everything within 7" in mortal wounds. I have found his fallout ability to be decent against agressive armies in the past, but mostly worthless against gunlines. The new game dynamic might result in more enemies ending up within 7" of him. He also isn't easy to remove
I have never found his lack of an invulnerable save to be an issue, in almost all cases things that killed him would have killed a terminator sorcerer just as easy, if not more easy because of the lower toughness.
Yeah, this could be an option too.
I still hope that they change Necrosius to be part of the "Wretched" as Typhus is for the Harbingers; will see
broxus wrote: In my playtesting I have found units of Deathshroud are the way to go and hit like a truck. I think they are much better in 9th than normal blightlords especially if facing vehicles. I was talking about this awhile back in this thread and used some math to highlight it.
2) How can this army get Poxmonger relics when the warlord is not even contained in a Poxmonger detachment? It's not even a DG detachment. How is this legal? Would this army be able to use Poxmonger Stratagems?
He has a pure Poxmonger Detachment where the Plagueburst Crawler are in. Furthermore The Relics for Poxmonger are categorised via the "Relics of Decay" and the Stratagem from the Death Guard Codex says: "Take one extra Relic of Decay". So since all Death Guard Relics are listed via "Relics of Decay" it should be possible to take one Plague Company Relic with the Stratagem, since it is all Relics of Decay.
broxus wrote: In my playtesting I have found units of Deathshroud are the way to go and hit like a truck. I think they are much better in 9th than normal blightlords especially if facing vehicles. I was talking about this awhile back in this thread and used some math to highlight it.
in which kind of list did you play them ty
I usually run some variation of a Poxmongers list with the following basic ingredients;
1x LoC 1x DP with wings
2x fleshmowers
3x MBHs 3x PBCs 3x units of 10 poxwalkers
2x units of 3 Deathshroud
2x foul blight spawns
Is contaminated monstrosity generally worth it on chaos spawn? I saw an Art of War video and Mark Perry commented that he liked it (with the bellboy) for the 5++ and 5+++ but that probably 3 squads is too many. Being that chaos spawn went up in cost 15% - they are about the same cost relatively as they were in 8th. At that time I can't think of many lists in which they saw tabletop play competitively...
Of course they weren't able to get a 5++ (for a relic) and a 5+++ (for a CP) for most of 8th either... That said, it seems like a significant investment to make for chaos spawn. The 5++ can help other units as well of course but then if bringing spawn it becomes more an issue of building a list 'around' the spawn rather than injecting in a cheap unit to fit a need of the army...
I've been running 2 units of 5 of them and have been relatively happy (sans bellboy)... as they actually do a surprising amount of damage and the need for multi-damage and decent AP has never been higher with intercessors, gravis armor etc. That said I've been very strapped for CP and am wondering if its really worth putting CM on them... or keeping them without CM? The closest unit I find in chaos that is similar are beasts of nurgle - which point for point are tankier but seem to hit less hard (but also come out to be more expensive)...
Has anyone tried running Spawn without contaminated monstrosity? Any experience in terms of do's / don'ts? Or have thoughts on the value with CM - could this be seen competitively or more of a fringe unit?
I've never used Spawn beyond one model squads to deny deepstriking or simply holding back objectives. But when they HAVE done melee, they easily attack above their weight class. Their issue is durability, not offense. So making them extra durable is probably worth it!
I think Spawn are right up there with Rhinos and Defilers in terms of value for that strat. DR is, IMO, the best special rule in the game now that FLY has changed.
in a primaris meta spawns are a decent choice, they kill primaris and also if killed you lost nothing, 115pt for 5 of them, DR is mandatory for me. with prescience they have good melee power for just 23pts each, they are fast enough and benefit of stratagems and psy powers.
Anyone tried running 6 MBHs? I don't have PBCs and since you can get 2 MBHs for the price of 1 PBC, I decided to go that route, hoping GW will keep making them better heh (if the ATV multi-melta becomes a universal rule, that might be neat). Working on my 2nd unit now and wondering if anyone had any luck with 6 instead of PBCs.
I think most people just don’t have them, and prior to the repeated points decrease, there was never a reason to have more. A monster mash type list using 9 with either PBCs or drones with a prince with the 4+ relic seems great. Give it a try!
If your country has the conquest magazine, one of the issues has a MBH in them, so you can get them for 10€/8GBP
You can also most of the elite characters and the lord felthius box for the same price that way. I bought out multiple people collecting the magazine just for marines and terrain, so I now can pretty much field any combination of DG units.
Here are a few I looked up:
Deathshroud 11pl --> 7pl (Down 4)
Blightlord Terms 14pl --> 11pl (down 3)
Plaguebearers 4pl --> 5pl (up 1)
Plaguemarines 7pl --> 6 pl (down 1)
Whilst that isn't massive for most, it does affect summoning which I had planned to try with wretched plague company.
Now If I wanted to summon 20 plaguebearers I am not guaranteed the power level needed. Using the Stratagem before 8 was enough (1 + 7).
Now a 3+ is required or I can only get 10.
I haven't looked at other daemon units yet.
Balerion wrote: Anyone tried running 6 MBHs? I don't have PBCs and since you can get 2 MBHs for the price of 1 PBC, I decided to go that route, hoping GW will keep making them better heh (if the ATV multi-melta becomes a universal rule, that might be neat). Working on my 2nd unit now and wondering if anyone had any luck with 6 instead of PBCs.
Yes, I have 6 and ran them last game against Primaris marines:
DP with Wings
Malignant Plaguecaster
4 units of 7 Plague Marines (2 Blight Launchers and 1 Champion had a Plasma Gun)
5 Blightlord Terminators (standard kit)
2 Foul Blightspawn
1 unit of 5 Chaos Spawn
2 units of 3 Myphitic Blight Haulers
1994pts
A hell of a chunk of points on those MBHs but hilariously impossible for my opponent to shift off the board - especially with the smaller board sizes. They shreddred through his dreadnoughts and Impulser and allowed me to march 2 squads of Plague Marines up the board (the other 2 held my objectives). Each unit of 3 MBH was accompanied by a Foul Blightspawn which I regularly take because they are just funny to use. The other star of the show was a unit of 5 Chaos Spawn with Contaminated Monstrosity who accompanied my Daemon Prince. They are surprisingly good at dispatching Primaris Marines and crazy cheap for what you get.
The Terminators were a little lackluster if I am being honest but that was more due to my bad dice rolling than anything else. 6 MBHs however - you ain't going to be making friends!
I've ran the GUO w/ bell and 6 MBHs for about a year and a half now (about 8 games at this point) and they are so underrated. If you're looking to jump in to competitive DG, they're a FAR cheaper alternative point per dollar to the triple defilers. They're basically costed as if they were in a start collecting box, maybe even cheaper.
They fill about the same role as a Defiler (unkillable threat saturation) and compliment PBCs hugely. The only downside is you really should go Poxbringers for them, to get that fallback strat. Otherwise you lose a lot of their potential damage by getting locked in with infantry due to most of their firepower being anti-tank, and most of their close/melee power being anti-infantry.
Defiler (CAD) = 90 bucks, and roughly 140-150 points (Depends on how ya make it, but the current meta build is 140ish)
MBH (CAD) = 30 bucks, 90 for 3. 100ppm, so 300 for a squad.
In a search that took me all of 3 minutes, you can plainly see if you're just trying to go on the budget and still kick butt, it's /half the price/ to go MBH spam rather than the Defiler spam.
Yes, MBHs price is great. It's not often you can say that about a 40k model I wish Defilers got a new model, I really don't like how they look. Good to know people have success with more MBHs. For their current points they seem pretty great to me, even if their damage output is lackluster a bit, but since holding objectives and surviving is more important in 9th, that might be less of an issue now.
Balerion wrote: Yes, MBHs price is great. It's not often you can say that about a 40k model I wish Defilers got a new model, I really don't like how they look. Good to know people have success with more MBHs. For their current points they seem pretty great to me, even if their damage output is lackluster a bit, but since holding objectives and surviving is more important in 9th, that might be less of an issue now.
The fact that survival and speed matters more than damage makes MBHs absolutely unreal. They and PBCs are exactly what 9th wants.
buddha wrote: With the new FAQMBHs are less appealing as they no longer block characters. My Poxmonger list is going to need an update.
Not as good? Certainly. But Poxmongers with all the goodies still makes a single MBH STUPIDLY hard to take down.As long as you keep that squad of 3 alive, you're protected.
Can terminators / termite drills arrive on turn one? Trying to understand the reserve rules. The reserve rules say strategic reserves can start to come in turn 2 unless a unit has their own rules, which terminators / termite drills do.
panzers wrote: Can terminators / termite drills arrive on turn one? Trying to understand the reserve rules. The reserve rules say strategic reserves can start to come in turn 2 unless a unit has their own rules, which terminators / termite drills do.
panzers wrote: Can terminators / termite drills arrive on turn one? Trying to understand the reserve rules. The reserve rules say strategic reserves can start to come in turn 2 unless a unit has their own rules, which terminators / termite drills do.
Thanks in advance!
They still have to wait till turn 2, yes.
Do you know where I can find that rule in the new book? I can only find the core rule "Strategic Reserves" which covers coming in turn two unless a models comes in under its own rules. Most of these units with their own rules say at the end of "any" of your movement phases.
"It’s worth pointing out at this stage that, if your units have abilities that enable them to set up somewhere other than the battlefield (such as a teleportarium chamber for the Teleport Strike ability of Terminators or when using the Cult Ambush ability of the Genestealer Cults), the Strategic Reserves rules don’t apply to them."
panzers wrote: Can terminators / termite drills arrive on turn one? Trying to understand the reserve rules. The reserve rules say strategic reserves can start to come in turn 2 unless a unit has their own rules, which terminators / termite drills do.
Thanks in advance!
They still have to wait till turn 2, yes.
Do you know where I can find that rule in the new book? I can only find the core rule "Strategic Reserves" which covers coming in turn two unless a models comes in under its own rules. Most of these units with their own rules say at the end of "any" of your movement phases.
"It’s worth pointing out at this stage that, if your units have abilities that enable them to set up somewhere other than the battlefield (such as a teleportarium chamber for the Teleport Strike ability of Terminators or when using the Cult Ambush ability of the Genestealer Cults), the Strategic Reserves rules don’t apply to them."
Huh, you might be right on this one! I haven't played a deepstriker unit yet, so could very well!
Turn 2 requirement can be found in Grand Tournament booklet. I forget the page off the top of my head but somewhere in the beginning. Basically, if you're playing tourney standard games it's the same as 8th - they come down from turn 2 and if not down by the end of turn 3, they're dead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The rule relates to all forms of reinforcement, be it deepstrke, strategic reserves or summoning.
That’s right – it won’t just be Primaris Marines on 2 Wounds anymore! All of a sudden, a lot of units that may have felt a bit left behind become very durable and appealing. From Battle Company units such as Assault, Devastator and Tactical Marines, to the elite Terminators of the 1st Company (who will be increased to 3 Wounds accordingly), the first born will be back to prove to their Primaris battle-brothers their great worth.
And as for future codexes for other genetically engineered transhumans warriors (both of the shiny grey and spikey variety), the same will apply to them. Just think how durable that will make units like Rubric Marines or Plague Marines.
Remember that Intercessor also moves faster, has an extra attack, has a longer range gun, has a pistol, and has -1 AP. So that PM should be cheaper to compensate.
They do fit 
