Bossdoc wrote: I just noticed that it seems to be posdible to use "heroine in the making" on Ephrael stern, since it's only restricted for celestine, junith and triumph, not for all named characters... since she lacks the order keyword, she can't buff other units, but I think the cc trait could work quite well...
I think they faq'd that away.
Exactly this.
Page 103 – A Heroine in the Making
Change the second sentence to read: ‘Select one Adepta Sororitas Character (other than your Warlord, Celestine, Junith Eruita, Ephrael Stern or the Triumph of Saint Katherine) and generate one Warlord Trait for it; it is regarded as your Warlord for the purposes of that Warlord Trait.’
I have used them in a 1500 Valorous Heart Battalion. A foot army with a 5++, a Hospitalier and a Imagifier with Tale of the Stoic. I had a 7 girl Retributor squad with H.Bolters and 2 Cherubs and a 7 girl Retributor with Multimeltas and two Cherubs.
Mass Necron fire from a 20 warrior squad removed all but one Multimelta girl.
kiron wrote: So anyone else try infantry list with lots of retributors to comment? Do you find them dying too fast?
I do when my friends don't want me to play BR lol.
VH with 3x3 rets and 3x3 Doms. Rets I just play with 1 of each weapon type, Doms are always SB's. Celestine, Triumph, Imagifier, and Canoness like normal. 2 units of Seraphim and 2 units of Celestines with Melta loadout, 3 units of BBS, and some Rhinos.
kiron wrote: So anyone else try infantry list with lots of retributors to comment? Do you find them dying too fast?
Top placing list in a tournament recently(via Goonhammer) ran 3 units of MM rets in rhinos. It also ran a couple units of repentia and mortifiers (which, moritifiers are quickly becoming a standout unit for SoB, which is something I thought was bascially a foregone conclusion given how good they were BEFORE their shooting got doubled.
Turns out 36 melta shots kill the ever loving feth out of a lot of stuff and at that point, it really doesn't matter if they die after.
kiron wrote: So anyone else try infantry list with lots of retributors to comment? Do you find them dying too fast?
Top placing list in a tournament recently(via Goonhammer) ran 3 units of MM rets in rhinos. It also ran a couple units of repentia and mortifiers (which, moritifiers are quickly becoming a standout unit for SoB, which is something I thought was bascially a foregone conclusion given how good they were BEFORE their shooting got doubled.
Turns out 36 melta shots kill the ever loving feth out of a lot of stuff and at that point, it really doesn't matter if they die after.
Mortifiers has been standard for a long time outside of ITC and in 9th. 60pts for them is a steal.
I've always been running 3 HB rets and I think i'm going to have a MM one now too, double the shots on 2 of them is really good when each gun is now double the shots lol.
konst80hummel wrote: I have used them in a 1500 Valorous Heart Battalion. A foot army with a 5++, a Hospitalier and a Imagifier with Tale of the Stoic. I had a 7 girl Retributor squad with H.Bolters and 2 Cherubs and a 7 girl Retributor with Multimeltas and two Cherubs.
Mass Necron fire from a 20 warrior squad removed all but one Multimelta girl.
So if you're saying that 20 necron warriors killed 6 VH retributors in one round of shooting, I could buy that. It would be a clear case of positioning error since the warriors would have to be benefiting from MWBD AND in rapid fire range with you NOT in cover (which rets always should be if there's any chance they might be targeted by enemy anti-infantry shooting), but under those circumstances 6 dead girls IS the statistical loss. Even if that can only really happen as a result of a mistake.
If you're saying he killed 13 VH sisters with 20 necron warriors, I just don't believe you.
kiron wrote: So anyone else try infantry list with lots of retributors to comment? Do you find them dying too fast?
Top placing list in a tournament recently(via Goonhammer) ran 3 units of MM rets in rhinos. It also ran a couple units of repentia and mortifiers (which, moritifiers are quickly becoming a standout unit for SoB, which is something I thought was bascially a foregone conclusion given how good they were BEFORE their shooting got doubled.
Turns out 36 melta shots kill the ever loving feth out of a lot of stuff and at that point, it really doesn't matter if they die after.
Mortifiers has been standard for a long time outside of ITC and in 9th. 60pts for them is a steal.
I've always been running 3 HB rets and I think i'm going to have a MM one now too, double the shots on 2 of them is really good when each gun is now double the shots lol.
konst80hummel wrote: I have used them in a 1500 Valorous Heart Battalion. A foot army with a 5++, a Hospitalier and a Imagifier with Tale of the Stoic. I had a 7 girl Retributor squad with H.Bolters and 2 Cherubs and a 7 girl Retributor with Multimeltas and two Cherubs.
Mass Necron fire from a 20 warrior squad removed all but one Multimelta girl.
So if you're saying that 20 necron warriors killed 6 VH retributors in one round of shooting, I could buy that. It would be a clear case of positioning error since the warriors would have to be benefiting from MWBD AND in rapid fire range with you NOT in cover (which rets always should be if there's any chance they might be targeted by enemy anti-infantry shooting), but under those circumstances 6 dead girls IS the statistical loss. Even if that can only really happen as a result of a mistake.
If you're saying he killed 13 VH sisters with 20 necron warriors, I just don't believe you.
He was indeed in MWBD range and was in rapid fire range and mine were not in cover because I was trying to go for his Barges that he had parked at the very edge of the table out of range of my Multimeltas. He also fired a big Str10 Ap -5 gun at them from said Barge. So a Barge with said gun and the 20 Warriors killed 1 unit of Retributors.
The learning point for me from this game was that Multimeltas are not sufficient AT as the enemy can elect to stay out of their range with worthwhile targets, leaving you to shoot at infantry....
ERJAK wrote: So if you're saying that 20 necron warriors killed 6 VH retributors in one round of shooting, I could buy that. It would be a clear case of positioning error since the warriors would have to be benefiting from MWBD AND in rapid fire range with you NOT in cover (which rets always should be if there's any chance they might be targeted by enemy anti-infantry shooting), but under those circumstances 6 dead girls IS the statistical loss. Even if that can only really happen as a result of a mistake.
If you're saying he killed 13 VH sisters with 20 necron warriors, I just don't believe you.
He was indeed in MWBD range and was in rapid fire range and mine were not in cover because I was trying to go for his Barges that he had parked at the very edge of the table out of range of my Multimeltas. He also fired a big Str10 Ap -5 gun at them from said Barge. So a Barge with said gun and the 20 Warriors killed 1 unit of Retributors.
The learning point for me from this game was that Multimeltas are not sufficient AT as the enemy can elect to stay out of their range with worthwhile targets, leaving you to shoot at infantry....
By that logic, nothing is sufficient since your opponent can elect to do that against everything we have. I'd think the correct lesson would be not to march Retributors up the board on foot, out of cover and exposed to massed anti-infantry fire, to reach targets more than 36" away...
konst80hummel wrote: I have used them in a 1500 Valorous Heart Battalion. A foot army with a 5++, a Hospitalier and a Imagifier with Tale of the Stoic. I had a 7 girl Retributor squad with H.Bolters and 2 Cherubs and a 7 girl Retributor with Multimeltas and two Cherubs.
Mass Necron fire from a 20 warrior squad removed all but one Multimelta girl.
So if you're saying that 20 necron warriors killed 6 VH retributors in one round of shooting, I could buy that. It would be a clear case of positioning error since the warriors would have to be benefiting from MWBD AND in rapid fire range with you NOT in cover (which rets always should be if there's any chance they might be targeted by enemy anti-infantry shooting), but under those circumstances 6 dead girls IS the statistical loss. Even if that can only really happen as a result of a mistake.
If you're saying he killed 13 VH sisters with 20 necron warriors, I just don't believe you.
Keep in mind if he wants unit dead he can deny one of your units all cover benefits(save, -1 to hit) for his entire army.
Yeah but even if the Necrons get all those things and we get no cover a 20 man necron unit in rapid fire with MWD will kill 6 Retributors unless my math is incorrect. That feels completely fine with me, if you run a full 10 man to soak damage, which you probably should if you are foot slogging they wont on average kill even a single Multimelta in the squad. And that's like 240pts of fire power with buffs.
kiron wrote: So anyone else try infantry list with lots of retributors to comment? Do you find them dying too fast?
Top placing list in a tournament recently(via Goonhammer) ran 3 units of MM rets in rhinos. It also ran a couple units of repentia and mortifiers (which, moritifiers are quickly becoming a standout unit for SoB, which is something I thought was bascially a foregone conclusion given how good they were BEFORE their shooting got doubled.
Turns out 36 melta shots kill the ever loving feth out of a lot of stuff and at that point, it really doesn't matter if they die after.
Mortifiers has been standard for a long time outside of ITC and in 9th. 60pts for them is a steal.
I've always been running 3 HB rets and I think i'm going to have a MM one now too, double the shots on 2 of them is really good when each gun is now double the shots lol.
EDIT: Have a link to the list? Just curious.
Also interested in that list!
Since no list has come forth, I made one. Happy to hear your thoughts. I think is has 13 or so points left over.
So has anyone made a list where we didn't have to rely on a butt load of repentia? I really want to make a close in shooting list but it looks like all the meta stuff is "take repentia and bloody rose"
generalchaos34 wrote: So has anyone made a list where we didn't have to rely on a butt load of repentia? I really want to make a close in shooting list but it looks like all the meta stuff is "take repentia and bloody rose"
Repentia squads have been the most common, as Breacher spam is with Admech, but some lists are popping up with other builds, such as the following which went 3-1 in a Florida event and only featured one squad of Repentia. It seems Mortifiers are slightly more common than Repentia currently and Retributors are making more appearances.
Anyway, still early in the edition and fewer events are happening than is normal, so it may take some time for things to really diversify.
generalchaos34 wrote: So has anyone made a list where we didn't have to rely on a butt load of repentia? I really want to make a close in shooting list but it looks like all the meta stuff is "take repentia and bloody rose"
OLM or VH with 3 units of Celestians, 3 Rets with MM, BBS squads, Seraphims, and Exorcist is really good for a shooting army. You can also have Doms or Immolators depending how you go.
skycapt44 wrote: Yes Deadly decent allows 4 inferno shots and a plasma (if you take on your superior which you should) plus all the AP-1 bolt pistols (if you are running BR which you should). Then repeat in the shooting phase.
Just so we're clear, the range extension only lasts until the end of the (movement) phase you're currently in when you use that stratagem, so inferno pistols will be in shooting range when you use the stratagem, but they'll be back to 6' in the shooting phase.
skycapt44 wrote: Yes Deadly decent allows 4 inferno shots and a plasma (if you take on your superior which you should) plus all the AP-1 bolt pistols (if you are running BR which you should). Then repeat in the shooting phase.
Just so we're clear, the range extension only lasts until the end of the (movement) phase you're currently in when you use that stratagem, so inferno pistols will be in shooting range when you use the stratagem, but they'll be back to 6' in the shooting phase.
That's why you just Deploy Scanners at the end of the movement phase and get those sweet secondary points.
GW has previewed an aura ability of the Palatine, 'confirming' that it acts as a standard luitenant, allowing for reroll wound rolls of 1 for <order> units within 6". She'll be released in 2021.
I know a lot of people have asked for this, but I find it quite the boring ability. It basically 'forces' you to take this model as it will just be too much of a force multiplier. Interestingly though, it doesn't specify core units. This implies that the model comes out before our new codex, as I doubt we are not getting the core treatment.
Bossdoc wrote: I find it really interesting that it works on <Order> and not on <core> <Order> units...
From my own personal reasoning, I think it's down to where the perceived benefit is coming from. For example a marine lieutenant the benefit is coming from their leadership so they dont benefit from it themselves and neither do vehicles. From a sisters point of view, their force multipliers could be said to be drawn from divine intervention but channelled through a focal being. So from that perspective, the focal being would also benefit as a conduit and divine or otherworldly force can affect anything.
At least that's how i'd explain it if I were reasoning out why some auras have core and some dont lol
To be fair, it could also just be an oversight... It's not uncommon that things go to print with serious errors. Heck, for a little bit there Kastelans were 65 points when kitted out with full phosphor according to Engine War.
Techpriest_ wrote: To be fair, it could also just be an oversight... It's not uncommon that things go to print with serious errors. Heck, for a little bit there Kastelans were 65 points when kitted out with full phosphor according to Engine War.
To be fair, though, the Sisters already have a sort of core thing going with Order, since a significant chunk of their options don't get buff already because they belong to the Ordo Hereticus or Adeptus Ministorium. An additional Core restriction would effectively just be a buff exclusion for the Exorcist, Immolator, and Rhino.
It could also just be that the preview purposefully leaves out the Core keyword, as it would pretty much confirm that a new codex is coming alongside this release.
That would be rather surprising as Sisters is the newest full codex outside of the 9th edition ones. It's not out of the question though, but I'd expect something more like Admech in Engine War for them than a full Codex.
Goonhammer did another article with GT-winning lists and a Sisters list took fourth place in one. The guy ran 3 Valorous Heart Exorcists, 3 4-model Mortifier units, the Triumph, a single squad of Repentia, and a squad of MM Retributors, alongside the mandatory Battle Sister Squad and Benificence Canoness. For me, it's nice to see Exorcists still getting work done, as I love the model a lot. Seems that Sisters can do well in either a melee or shooty build, or even in a somewhat hybrid build like this one.
Ultimately this is similar to something I'm considering building towards, although I would run 3 Repentia units in Rhinos rather than all those Mortifiers (it would certainly save me having to invest a fair amount of money and a huge amount of painting time to those contraptions!). With Exorcists, you kind of have to lean into the Bring Them Down secondary, as you're going to be giving up some serious points on that regardless and you need to give your opponent something big besides those to shoot at. Might as well go all-in on vehicles at that point.
If we're thinking of the same list, which we very well may be, the player actually used the Mortifiers as a shooting unit. They set them up next to the Exorcist and would use them to shoot while acting as a screen and counter charge unit for anything threatening the Exorcists.
I think the Mortifiers are one of the cooler units, not just in how they look but their ability to act as either shooting or melee rather well.
Palatine aura confirmed to be 6" reroll 1 of wound for <Order>. This now appears to have Sister aura's remain extremely strong compared to other auras currently written post 9th. Especially around Ret squads right now. Do we feel like having an HQ dedicated to wounding is going to change up our lists?
Dragonbeef4Life wrote: Palatine aura confirmed to be 6" reroll 1 of wound for <Order>. This now appears to have Sister aura's remain extremely strong compared to other auras currently written post 9th. Especially around Ret squads right now. Do we feel like having an HQ dedicated to wounding is going to change up our lists?
This depends almost exclusively on whether anything happens with Core and the Exorcist.
If it will help my Exorcists wound better, I will absolutely have a Palantine stand behind them to give them re-rolls to wound. If it won't, then I won't. It's not really like our melee units need a whole lot of wound-fixing, and I'm already kind of tight on both points and HQ slots.
ZergSmasher wrote: Goonhammer did another article with GT-winning lists and a Sisters list took fourth place in one. The guy ran 3 Valorous Heart Exorcists, 3 4-model Mortifier units, the Triumph, a single squad of Repentia, and a squad of MM Retributors, alongside the mandatory Battle Sister Squad and Benificence Canoness. For me, it's nice to see Exorcists still getting work done, as I love the model a lot. Seems that Sisters can do well in either a melee or shooty build, or even in a somewhat hybrid build like this one.
Ultimately this is similar to something I'm considering building towards, although I would run 3 Repentia units in Rhinos rather than all those Mortifiers (it would certainly save me having to invest a fair amount of money and a huge amount of painting time to those contraptions!). With Exorcists, you kind of have to lean into the Bring Them Down secondary, as you're going to be giving up some serious points on that regardless and you need to give your opponent something big besides those to shoot at. Might as well go all-in on vehicles at that point.
Honestly, post imperium standard weapon updates, you can throw darts at the book and build a great list. Even immolators are fething terrifying now(if very fragile).
Dragonbeef4Life wrote: Palatine aura confirmed to be 6" reroll 1 of wound for <Order>. This now appears to have Sister aura's remain extremely strong compared to other auras currently written post 9th. Especially around Ret squads right now. Do we feel like having an HQ dedicated to wounding is going to change up our lists?
This depends almost exclusively on whether anything happens with Core and the Exorcist.
If it will help my Exorcists wound better, I will absolutely have a Palantine stand behind them to give them re-rolls to wound. If it won't, then I won't. It's not really like our melee units need a whole lot of wound-fixing, and I'm already kind of tight on both points and HQ slots.
My guess is that the updated sisters book will be coming out very late in the edition, which is fantastic. The current book has really come into its own and I don't want it to change anytime soon.
I'm torn, while the book has a lot of solid options I do wish some of the less played Orders got an update or we got a build-your-own section since we only really have 3 Orders that see play and they have very specific playstyles.
When it comes to number of playable units in the book I think we're pretty much the gold standard, it's only really some character elites that never see play.
Whenever I see Retributors in army lists, it's almost always the minimum unit size of 5, which strikes me as... less than ideal. Lose one? Remove the Sister Superior, I guess. But afterwards, you start losing all that expensive firepower very quickly. Retributors cost 12 points apiece, so only one more point than Battle Sisters; I think it would definitely be worth it to run them in units of 7-10 for some ablative wounds (especially in a Valorous Heart army). In essence, use them as a workhorse unit instead of a highly-vulnerable specialist unit.
Whenever I see Retributors in army lists, it's almost always the minimum unit size of 5, which strikes me as... less than ideal. Lose one? Remove the Sister Superior, I guess. But afterwards, you start losing all that expensive firepower very quickly. Retributors cost 12 points apiece, so only one more point than Battle Sisters; I think it would definitely be worth it to run them in units of 7-10 for some ablative wounds (especially in a Valorous Heart army). In essence, use them as a workhorse unit instead of a highly-vulnerable specialist unit.
.
In OLM you want larger units so there is a chance they stay alive to get the +1 to hits. If you are in BR or another that is there to save on detachments, etc... or if you are strategic reserving them no need to go over 5. If you are VH going a few over 5 is not a bad idea, and the only one I would go up to 10 with.
What is the most reliable way of delivering buffing heroes close to sisters repentia that have to perform long distance charges in order to connect with the opponent units ?
Bossdoc wrote: I find it really interesting that it works on <Order> and not on <core> <Order> units...
I don't. If it worked with core <order> it would work for literally no units. Sisters don't HAVE core in any unit's keywords. Any core restriction comes with new codex once there actually are units with core keyword(so much for codex being written 9e in mind )
Jabberscythe wrote: What is the most reliable way of delivering buffing heroes close to sisters repentia that have to perform long distance charges in order to connect with the opponent units ?
Advancing the characters is my buff-a-long-charge plan
Whenever I see Retributors in army lists, it's almost always the minimum unit size of 5, which strikes me as... less than ideal. Lose one? Remove the Sister Superior, I guess. But afterwards, you start losing all that expensive firepower very quickly. Retributors cost 12 points apiece, so only one more point than Battle Sisters; I think it would definitely be worth it to run them in units of 7-10 for some ablative wounds (especially in a Valorous Heart army). In essence, use them as a workhorse unit instead of a highly-vulnerable specialist unit.
.
You either run retributors in a way that you don't care if they die or that they're very difficult to get rid of.
Are you VH with a 4++? Run units of 10 and stand them in cover (especially if you're comfortable enough with your local terrain setups to bring a Sanctum)
Are you bloody rose/argent shroud? Take 5 (MAYBE 6) and stick them in either Strategic Reserve or out of LoS and obliterate something more expensive then them before they die.
Basically, ablative wounds are only useful if the unit has the tools to survive already. If they don't, the extra 2-3 bodies won't do anywhere as much work keeping them alive as would good positioning, or SR.
Bossdoc wrote: I find it really interesting that it works on <Order> and not on <core> <Order> units...
I don't. If it worked with core <order> it would work for literally no units. Sisters don't HAVE core in any unit's keywords. Any core restriction comes with new codex once there actually are units with core keyword(so much for codex being written 9e in mind )
My take is there is a half decent chance that it will actually wore on Core <<Order>> units but they didn't want to open that can of worms in their teaser. That way, they will be able to exclude Characters and Vehicles by not making them Core. It would be odd for them to allow AS Characters to benefit from aura's they have made a point of limiting in all the published 9th Edition Codexes to date.
Bossdoc wrote: I find it really interesting that it works on <Order> and not on <core> <Order> units...
I don't. If it worked with core <order> it would work for literally no units. Sisters don't HAVE core in any unit's keywords. Any core restriction comes with new codex once there actually are units with core keyword(so much for codex being written 9e in mind )
My take is there is a half decent chance that it will actually wore on Core <<Order>> units but they didn't want to open that can of worms in their teaser. That way, they will be able to exclude Characters and Vehicles by not making them Core. It would be odd for them to allow AS Characters to benefit from aura's they have made a point of limiting in all the published 9th Edition Codexes to date.
Or we just aren't getting a Codex with the Palatine release
Amishprn86 wrote: Im pretty sure its a Codex with Palatine early 2021.
Normally I would say that its weird to get a codex release so quickly....but I also forget that sisters are pulling HUGE sales numbers, I would not be surprised if they are on par with marines in some areas. So I can totally see them getting a new codex.
I'm still leaning towards a supplement such as Engine War and how it effected Admech as opposed to a full codex. I know the Space Marines had a 2nd Edition codex in 8th that was almost as new as Sisters, but I don't think it's comparable to how the Sisters have the newest of the 8th Edition codices, as the first edition of the 8th Edition Space Marine Codex was from 2017.
I could be wrong about a new codex, but the Sisters feel incredibly well balanced as is, so it would be odd to have a major change as opposed to some new units that fill existing holes in the army. After all, Engine War brought Admech a wide array of fast attack choices and a transport whereas they previously were lacking in those departments but otherwise had a solid army.
Techpriest_ wrote: I'm still leaning towards a supplement such as Engine War and how it effected Admech as opposed to a full codex. I know the Space Marines had a 2nd Edition codex in 8th that was almost as new as Sisters, but I don't think it's comparable to how the Sisters have the newest of the 8th Edition codices, as the first edition of the 8th Edition Space Marine Codex was from 2017.
I could be wrong about a new codex, but the Sisters feel incredibly well balanced as is, so it would be odd to have a major change as opposed to some new units that fill existing holes in the army. After all, Engine War brought Admech a wide array of fast attack choices and a transport whereas they previously were lacking in those departments but otherwise had a solid army.
I would've expected a single character model to come without a book, just a seperate datasheet.
The 'War Zone: Charadon' books just don't seem like they fit new model releases in the same way PA did.
Hey guys, a little while ago I started a youtube channel which featured a series focused on starting an Admech army and it turned out to be rather popular. As such I decided to expand it to other armies I find interesting and on the top of my list was Sister of Battle because of their models and rule set. Additionally, I noticed there wasn't a lot of content on youtube for Sisters that was recent with most of it being almost a year old at this time.
This is the first video in the series and it covers the first purchases when diving into the army, hope you like it and let me know what you think as feed back is always welcome.
-Guardsman- wrote: What's the prevailing opinion on Immolators with twin multi-melta?
Used to be the worst non-geminae unit in the codex, now is a pretty decent little firing platform that's main weakness is how incredibly fragile vehicles are right now.
-Guardsman- wrote: What's the prevailing opinion on Immolators with twin multi-melta?
In competitive play, I don't think they really have a niche. Nobody is taking them to a top table finish that I've seen. This is because most of what they do can be done better by a unit of Retributors (Sisters' analog of Eradicators). And if you need a transport, Rhinos are cheaper and can carry more models. However, in casual play they might do okay for you. Just pop some kind of small unit inside and have fun with it. The new Immolator is a really cool model, so go nuts!
-Guardsman- wrote: What's the prevailing opinion on Immolators with twin multi-melta?
Mine has been stealing the show in the Crusade we've been playing. Been really good at getting close to character units and hitting them with those shots, in a pinch.
-Guardsman- wrote: What's the prevailing opinion on Immolators with twin multi-melta?
In competitive play, I don't think they really have a niche. Nobody is taking them to a top table finish that I've seen. This is because most of what they do can be done better by a unit of Retributors (Sisters' analog of Eradicators). And if you need a transport, Rhinos are cheaper and can carry more models. However, in casual play they might do okay for you. Just pop some kind of small unit inside and have fun with it. The new Immolator is a really cool model, so go nuts!
Im currently sitting on a 4th one in box that I am considering selling. Since I already have 3 im thinking I probably should just get rid of it (I got it as part of a cool mystery box promotion). Although....a mini horde of MM immilators does seem useful enough. What do you guys think?
In a recent streamed game by Art of War that you can find on Youtube, Nick Nanavati played a list that included 3 Immolators with Heavy Bolters.
I'm not sure if I'm sold on it, but I can see the logic behind it as well. At 125 points you get access to three heavy bolters per tank essentially and can throw a five man unit of Sisters in it for extra protection while they make their way onto an objective.
When you consider a minimum squad of Retributors with 3 heavy bolters is 90 points it's really not that bad as for an extra 35 points you are picking up a Rhino body in place of the five sister bodies you'd get in Retributor squad.
It's definitely not a bad option if you just want to have more Heavy Bolters and some way to move around small units of Sisters.
konst80hummel wrote: One and two are none, three might make it to round 2, Four will get to shoot, 5+ will be burning things all game.
Well if you have a good number of Rhinos, Mortifiers and Exorcists even one or two Immolators can be survive 2-3 rounds if not more. If they are targeted first the other vehicles get to play, which could also be even better.
Im currently sitting on a 4th one in box that I am considering selling. Since I already have 3 im thinking I probably should just get rid of it (I got it as part of a cool mystery box promotion). Although....a mini horde of MM immilators does seem useful enough. What do you guys think?
Depends on what you want more, the potentually useful and always fun Immolator or the extra coin...
It's not an in-demand-meta model, and I've enjoyed driving them round the board. Maybe they'll be great again one day soon.
Im currently sitting on a 4th one in box that I am considering selling. Since I already have 3 im thinking I probably should just get rid of it (I got it as part of a cool mystery box promotion). Although....a mini horde of MM immilators does seem useful enough. What do you guys think?
Depends on what you want more, the potentually useful and always fun Immolator or the extra coin...
It's not an in-demand-meta model, and I've enjoyed driving them round the board. Maybe they'll be great again one day soon.
Funny story about getting the Immolators. I originally only wanted 2 to match my 2 rhinos. One of the ones I received had a busted Stained Glass window so GW sent me a whole new one. Fast forward to now and now I have a mystery box that gives me a total of 4! I think if anything it will look sweet on a shelf with those beautiful stained glass windows. The real question now is do I sell my spare box of Battle Sisters or wait for a meta shift in case I need more Flamers/Meltas/Storm Bolters, etc and do I just convert the heck out of my spare Dialogus? I almost never see anyone taking one dialogus much less 2, although I can see them having a lot of use in a Martyred Lady list.
How are Death Cult Assassins in terms of value for points?
I've never really considered them because I hate finecast, but I just learned that the Cypher Lords from Warcry make excellent proxies. Really love the look of them.
-Guardsman- wrote: How are Death Cult Assassins in terms of value for points?
I've never really considered them because I hate finecast, but I just learned that the Cypher Lords from Warcry make excellent proxies. Really love the look of them.
They are slower howling banshees with twice the attacks... and a randomly gimped unit size of 6..
iv used them off and on since 3rd edition and they have always performed decently if I could get them into melee, they are a bit squishy but they are the cheapest of the 3, they make a decent counter charge or deterent unit
Yeah, the 2-6 unit size is definitely odd; you'd expect this sort of thing for a far more elite kind of unit. But perhaps this can make transport-sharing easier. E.g. a transport with a squad of 5 Sisters, a character, and a squad of 4 Death Cult Assassins. Or 4+5 DC Assassins and a character.
A pair of them or two could also be good for area denial vs. deep strike.
Other than blendering 1 Wound targets, I can't imagine anything DCA can do that you can't do with more deadly Repentia. Either unit will die to a stiff breeze, but you can enhance Repentia with Order specific abilities and Order Convictions while DCA run along (except for Priest buff).
Minimum units of DCA actually work well as "action slave" units. They outflank in, Deploy Scramblers or something, and then die horribly, having fulfilled their purpose in the list. At least one guy with top table finishes in a couple of events uses 2 units of them like this.
MacPhail wrote: What is our favorite unit for that task (actions) in a pure sisters army? I could see some Battalions having room for an extra Preacher.
I use a combination of BSS and min seraphim. But I can see the DCA logic
MacPhail wrote: What is our favorite unit for that task (actions) in a pure sisters army? I could see some Battalions having room for an extra Preacher.
I use a combination of BSS and min seraphim. But I can see the DCA logic
Yep, I think I'll stick with a BSS with heavy bolter for camping and occasional actions. I haven't really taken many action based secondaries.
I did just pick up a Dialogus and a Hospitaller for the sake of the models, which are both very cool. Is anyone getting any use of them on the table, or are they just for the showcase?
alextroy wrote: Other than blendering 1 Wound targets, I can't imagine anything DCA can do that you can't do with more deadly Repentia. Either unit will die to a stiff breeze, but you can enhance Repentia with Order specific abilities and Order Convictions while DCA run along (except for Priest buff).
Be cheap objective holder/action. The minimum price for unit is pretty small. Rather than kill anything i would use them to sit on objectives and do actions. Cheaper to have them on objective than repentia
Not sure how good they are for that but if i felt desperate to use them that would be the way i would go for.
I take 2 or 3 units of Repentia, 1 is always in strategic reserves, putting 2 units of DCA into reserves for that same 1CP is amazing.
DCA will insure that I can get all my secondaries without trying. Also they are not characters so they don't help give up assassination and can do more actions.
Deploy Scramblers is one of the secondaries they can do, if I do not have a clear 3rd secondary (its hard against marines sometimes to fine a good 3rd pick), i just take Scramblers, that way no matter what my opponent is taking. Sure its max 90pts vs 100, but that only matters if I want to take 1st in a major event.
Amishprn86 wrote: I take 2 or 3 units of Repentia, 1 is always in strategic reserves, putting 2 units of DCA into reserves for that same 1CP is amazing.
DCA will insure that I can get all my secondaries without trying. Also they are not characters so they don't help give up assassination and can do more actions.
Deploy Scramblers is one of the secondaries they can do, if I do not have a clear 3rd secondary (its hard against marines sometimes to fine a good 3rd pick), i just take Scramblers, that way no matter what my opponent is taking. Sure its max 90pts vs 100, but that only matters if I want to take 1st in a major event.
Do you really need DCA for that though? With how good deadly descent Seraphim are, there's really no list I would build that wouldn't have 2 units of them and 2 units of seraphim get scramblers completely for free.
Amishprn86 wrote: I take 2 or 3 units of Repentia, 1 is always in strategic reserves, putting 2 units of DCA into reserves for that same 1CP is amazing.
DCA will insure that I can get all my secondaries without trying. Also they are not characters so they don't help give up assassination and can do more actions.
Deploy Scramblers is one of the secondaries they can do, if I do not have a clear 3rd secondary (its hard against marines sometimes to fine a good 3rd pick), i just take Scramblers, that way no matter what my opponent is taking. Sure its max 90pts vs 100, but that only matters if I want to take 1st in a major event.
Do you really need DCA for that though? With how good deadly descent Seraphim are, there's really no list I would build that wouldn't have 2 units of them and 2 units of seraphim get scramblers completely for free.
Its he cheapest and easiest way, the alternative is to get another BSS which is the cost of 2x2 DCA and that 1 BSS is only 1 unit not 2, so if they die now i need to spend another unit and more points to do the same thing. Sure I can use Seraphim but I don't always have that option, sometimes I need to shoot with them again (even if its just bolters) I play Blood Rose only, the -1ap on the pistols helps. But again I don't always have that option to do this turn 2 and turn 3.
MacPhail wrote: What is our favorite unit for that task (actions) in a pure sisters army? I could see some Battalions having room for an extra Preacher.
I use a combination of BSS and min seraphim. But I can see the DCA logic
Yep, I think I'll stick with a BSS with heavy bolter for camping and occasional actions. I haven't really taken many action based secondaries.
I did just pick up a Dialogus and a Hospitaller for the sake of the models, which are both very cool. Is anyone getting any use of them on the table, or are they just for the showcase?
Hospitaller get some value in smaller games. I'm yet to see the place of Dialogus
Both Hospitaller and Dialogus work on lists based on lots of infantry models and multiple footslogging squads, which is something pretty uncommon. A Valorous Heart list with some 10 man squads and a few 5 man ones could be the archetype for these two characters.
Hospitaller is probably easier to make it work properly, all she needs is to resurrect a valuable model (like a Retributor carrying a multimelta) for 2-3 turns, for a Dialogus you need multiple units that rely on Acts of Faith, typically squads with melta dudes or even just a melta dude.
Both characters are rather suboptimal choices overall though. Hospitaller ability should be like Dialogus one, affecting every units within the bubble. Then she'd be a solid option.
So, Goonhammer just released another Competitive Innovations article featuring the top lists from a GT in Australia (where apparently COVID really isn't a thing), and the winning list was a Sisters list. And it was very different, mainly using Valorous Heart Retributors and lots of BSS with Heavy Bolters, plus a small contingent of Bloody Rose for a single squad of Repentia and a couple of hand flamer Seraphim units, as well as a Vindicare Assassin. It basically trades the hard punching style of Bloody Rose for the super durable (when properly supported) Valorous Heart gunline. Very nice to know that there are a lot of ways to win with Sisters right now.
One list that I'm curious about that they didn't go super in-depth on in the article was one that combined Valorous Heart Sisters with Dark Angels Deathwing. Deathwing Knights could be an interesting alternative to Repentia if you don't mind not having Sacred Rites, as they are far more durable and hit harder. Soup really isn't encouraged under the new rules trends, but that's a combo that could work and apparently did, as the guy running it came in like 5th in the event.
Posted a new video today, and I was hoping to get some feedback on both the overall video as well as the information provided from you guys. It's part of a series that hopes to introduce players to Sisters and walk them through their first purchase to first 2,000 point army list. This video looks at Orders and how they play.
ZergSmasher wrote: So, Goonhammer just released another Competitive Innovations article featuring the top lists from a GT in Australia (where apparently COVID really isn't a thing), and the winning list was a Sisters list. And it was very different, mainly using Valorous Heart Retributors and lots of BSS with Heavy Bolters, plus a small contingent of Bloody Rose for a single squad of Repentia and a couple of hand flamer Seraphim units, as well as a Vindicare Assassin. It basically trades the hard punching style of Bloody Rose for the super durable (when properly supported) Valorous Heart gunline. Very nice to know that there are a lot of ways to win with Sisters right now.
One list that I'm curious about that they didn't go super in-depth on in the article was one that combined Valorous Heart Sisters with Dark Angels Deathwing. Deathwing Knights could be an interesting alternative to Repentia if you don't mind not having Sacred Rites, as they are far more durable and hit harder. Soup really isn't encouraged under the new rules trends, but that's a combo that could work and apparently did, as the guy running it came in like 5th in the event.
Vh and OLM Rets has been top picks since the MM update, its one of the best Melta gun units in the game now (+12" for 1 unit, 2 modes gets to shoot twice, when near Triumph/Dial gets to use 2 MD, etc...) so basically for turn 1-2 and sometimes turn 3 you have 12 36" meltas, VH gives them tankiness and OLM gives them +1 to hit, i prefer VH to OLM. Vindicare Assassin's are a hit or a miss, some players love them, some hates them. But they offer a role that no other unit can do, force certain heroes to stay behind cover, this also gives you another secondary you can take as it could kill a character a turn with some luck.
Techpriest_ wrote: Posted a new video today, and I was hoping to get some feedback on both the overall video as well as the information provided from you guys. It's part of a series that hopes to introduce players to Sisters and walk them through their first purchase to first 2,000 point army list. This video looks at Orders and how they play.
Ok, few thoughts. I love the use of 'Kill them with kindness'. 'Terrible Knowledge' isn't quite as good as you say, though it's still a good trait to give your WL and the 22 inch threat range(unsupported)on heavy flamer rets in 9th is actually quite good. I think a large number of us would rank AS over SR because of the usefullness of the Convictions and a point that you alluded too, Sisters have enough good universal WL traits, relics and even strategems that we don't need specific orders stuff.
Pretty good stuff all around though. Lots of info and interesting thoughts there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Martyr's Vengance also got Melta errata...
Lammia wrote: Ok, few thoughts. I love the use of 'Kill them with kindness'. 'Terrible Knowledge' isn't quite as good as you say, though it's still a good trait to give your WL and the 22 inch threat range(unsupported)on heavy flamer rets in 9th is actually quite good. I think a large number of us would rank AS over SR because of the usefullness of the Convictions and a point that you alluded too, Sisters have enough good universal WL traits, relics and even strategems that we don't need specific orders stuff.
Pretty good stuff all around though. Lots of info and interesting thoughts there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Martyr's Vengance also got Melta errata...
Thanks, and I do agree Terrible Knowledge for me was an ability that is purely for Heroine in the Making if you don't happen to want to take any other traits beyond Beacon, as it's a free roll thanks to the CP refund. Fair point on the AS and SR rankings, I think what it really came down to for me was that one had more abilities that could do something than the other, so they had a bigger chance of finding a niche. Though the AS conviction is generally good and applies to everyone in the Order, so it may definitely give them an edge over SR.
Lammia wrote: Ok, few thoughts. I love the use of 'Kill them with kindness'. 'Terrible Knowledge' isn't quite as good as you say, though it's still a good trait to give your WL and the 22 inch threat range(unsupported)on heavy flamer rets in 9th is actually quite good. I think a large number of us would rank AS over SR because of the usefullness of the Convictions and a point that you alluded too, Sisters have enough good universal WL traits, relics and even strategems that we don't need specific orders stuff.
Pretty good stuff all around though. Lots of info and interesting thoughts there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Martyr's Vengance also got Melta errata...
Thanks, and I do agree Terrible Knowledge for me was an ability that is purely for Heroine in the Making if you don't happen to want to take any other traits beyond Beacon, as it's a free roll thanks to the CP refund. Fair point on the AS and SR rankings, I think what it really came down to for me was that one had more abilities that could do something than the other, so they had a bigger chance of finding a niche. Though the AS conviction is generally good and applies to everyone in the Order, so it may definitely give them an edge over SR.
I would argue that AS is the third best conviction behind VH and BR. It beats out OoML because of their reliance on things dying, it beats out Ebon Chalice by being more universally applicable (even though EC's WT and Unique Strat are better, they're not that much better than the generic's) and Sacred Rose is just not very good.
Mobility is huge in 9th edition, especially for generally short ranged shooting like sisters have, being able to advance and fire out of a rhino/immolator or even just making your 4++ blob significantly more flexible is excellent value.
Lammia wrote: OOML and EC have top comp. placings* though, so I see why it was done that way...
((*Playing second fiddle to BR))
I would argue that JUNITH had a top comp placing and that the OoML trait is just the tax you have to pay to get reroll ones to wound and +1 to SoF on the same body. AS seems the stronger trait without a very good special character propping them up. EC is really good at doing really specific things. If you're trying to do something EC excels at, it's great, but it is not at all a generalist trait and limits your list building option quite considerably compared to something like VH or AS.
If I had to order it for 'what is the strongest trait to just plop a random list into' it would be 1. BR 2. VH 3. Tie between OoML with Junith and AS, 4. OoML vanilla, 5. EC 6. Sacred Rose.
I think we all agree for the most part, though I will mention when I was ranking the orders it was based on the overall package, not just the conviction.
One thing I didn't include was a "mixed Order", in which you give up the Convictions and just optimize the Stratagems. Though looking at it, it doesn't seem very possible as the Convictions are rather strong and the Stratagems aren't as powerful as they are in say Admech.
Honestly, hardest part for me is choosing conviction. I figured mixed will be nerfed later so looking at trying to go mono. Have a good mix of units, 2x repentia, 2x seraphim, 2x rets, 2 immolators, 30 sisters, etc. I may go off the reservation and try SR but BR just looks a lot of fun.
Now that the Palatine is on the horizon (Q1 maybe?) and we know at least one (and probably her main) rule (re-roll 1s to wound within 6"), is anyone else playing musical chairs with HQs in their head? I've been running 2 Canonesses in a Battalion and it seems the choice is to swap one for a Palatine or add her and find the points somewhere else. I'm leaning toward adding her and running her in range of melta Celestians of the Bloody Rose and alongside the Beneficence blender Canoness. Anyone having similar thoughts, or different?
My preference for HQs right now is a Canoness, Celestine, and the Triumph in my Battalion. I simply cannot fit any more without having to add another detachment, and I love every single one of these models so I'm kinda screwed.
I wish one of these things had the "supreme commander" keyword. If the Palatine and battlebox is coming alongside a new Codex, which is really just a wishlist item for me right now instead of any insight into their plans, I would hope we start to see that keyword show up...
I think the Palatine is probably best used to anchor a firebase of Retributors or Exorcists. I would expect that if a new book comes that Exorcists will not be Core, so they may not benefit, but Retributors surely will still have that keyword I think.
ZergSmasher wrote: I think the Palatine is probably best used to anchor a firebase of Retributors or Exorcists. I would expect that if a new book comes that Exorcists will not be Core, so they may not benefit, but Retributors surely will still have that keyword I think.
Wouldn't worry about core or not. The Palantine coming out with a boxset rather than the new codex is a pretty strong signal that our book is going to sticking around for a good long while yet.
New FAQ just dropped today. No changes for Sisters other than some points costs.
The changes as far as I could tell:
Retributors to 14 ppm (up from 12)
Repentia to 16 ppm (up from 15)
Zephyrim to 18 ppm (down from 20)
Not really surprised to see Repentia and Retributors take a bit of a hike. Seeing Zephyrim come down will perhaps cause them to appear in more lists- they were already at least on the cusp of being competitive. I'm honestly surprised we didn't see Mortifiers get a points hike- they are one unit that sees a fair amount of competitive play and they are pretty good, plus with the changes in the mission secondaries they aren't punished as hard for being vehicles.
ZergSmasher wrote: New FAQ just dropped today. No changes for Sisters other than some points costs.
The changes as far as I could tell:
Retributors to 14 ppm (up from 12)
Repentia to 16 ppm (up from 15)
Zephyrim to 18 ppm (down from 20)
Rhinos to 80 (up from 78)
Canoness Null Rod is free
Simulacrum Imperialis is free
Not a bad set of changes. Unless your list was all about Retributors and Repentia, this can easily be a non-issue for your list.
ZergSmasher wrote: New FAQ just dropped today. No changes for Sisters other than some points costs.
The changes as far as I could tell:
Retributors to 14 ppm (up from 12)
Repentia to 16 ppm (up from 15)
Zephyrim to 18 ppm (down from 20)
Rhinos to 80 (up from 78)
Canoness Null Rod is free
Simulacrum Imperialis is free
Not a bad set of changes. Unless your list was all about Retributors and Repentia, this can easily be a non-issue for your list.
though free simulacrum for said retributors so the points even out there if you were already taking one in the unit.
Considering both 'free' items are not mentioned, it could simply be an oversight rather than them being 0 points. Seems more likely to me as well, especially considering GW has a reputation of doing so. I'd be really enthusiastic about the Zephyrim if it weren't some of the most horrible models to paint... Too difficult to hold and to access all the (visible) areas. I've started on my first plastic Seraphim and it's just a struggle.
Us3Less wrote: Considering both 'free' items are not mentioned, it could simply be an oversight rather than them being 0 points. Seems more likely to me as well, especially considering GW has a reputation of doing so. I'd be really enthusiastic about the Zephyrim if it weren't some of the most horrible models to paint... Too difficult to hold and to access all the (visible) areas. I've started on my first plastic Seraphim and it's just a struggle.
From the first page of the Munitorum manual:
You can use this book to determine the points (pts) value of each unit in your army. Each entry lists the unit’s size (i.e. how many models the unit can contain) and how many points the
unit costs. If an entry has a unit cost of ‘x pts/model’, then the unit costs x points for every model in that unit. You must then add points for each weapon, or item of wargear, that is included
in that unit if it is listed in that unit’s entry (weapons and wargear not listed in a unit’s entry cost no additional points to include in that unit).
I'll wait a couple weeks to see if the FAQ gets FAQ'd, but there doesn't seem to be a reason not to include a Simulacrum in every unit if they're free.
ZergSmasher wrote: New FAQ just dropped today. No changes for Sisters other than some points costs.
The changes as far as I could tell:
Retributors to 14 ppm (up from 12)
Repentia to 16 ppm (up from 15)
Zephyrim to 18 ppm (down from 20)
Rhinos to 80 (up from 78)
Canoness Null Rod is free
Simulacrum Imperialis is free
Not a bad set of changes. Unless your list was all about Retributors and Repentia, this can easily be a non-issue for your list.
though free simulacrum for said retributors so the points even out there if you were already taking one in the unit.
A 10 point increase for 5 models isn't offset by not paying 5 points for a Simulacrum. But if your list has more than a few SI, the points will balance out over the army.
Asmodai wrote:I'll wait a couple weeks to see if the FAQ gets FAQ'd, but there doesn't seem to be a reason not to include a Simulacrum in every unit if they're free.
We will have to wait and see. Maybe GW decided they were too expensive given the need for a model to hold it and losing the ability when the model dies? But then again, you still have to pay for a Vox Caster in an AM Infantry Squad, so who knows what happened.
Conspiracy theory: maybe they decided to make SI free because they knew enough people had decided not to build them, so now that everyone is going to want one they'll have to buy more boxes to get them. For the record I don't necessarily believe that, but rather that they accidentally missed adding the cost to the new MFM for some reason. I mean, this is GW we're talking about here.
ZergSmasher wrote: Conspiracy theory: maybe they decided to make SI free because they knew enough people had decided not to build them, so now that everyone is going to want one they'll have to buy more boxes to get them. For the record I don't necessarily believe that, but rather that they accidentally missed adding the cost to the new MFM for some reason. I mean, this is GW we're talking about here.
I'm not buying more boxes - I'll just file the hands off the poles of the simulacrum then mount them between the backpack and the back of the armour on regular bolter Sisters.Will only take a dot of super-glue to attach them, so removing them should be fairly non-destructive if the rules change again.
Given that vox-casters still cost points for Guard, I'm guessing the Simulacrum being free is an error.
Unfortunately, the MFM 2021 Mk 1 is full of errors. We all know that Retributors can take Flamers, Meltaguns, or Storm Bolters. And it is odd that Null Rods are free.
alextroy wrote: Unfortunately, the MFM 2021 Mk 1 is full of errors. We all know that Retributors can take Flamers, Meltaguns, or Storm Bolters. And it is odd that Null Rods are free.
It has Flamers, melta guns, storm bolters though...
alextroy wrote: Unfortunately, the MFM 2021 Mk 1 is full of errors. We all know that Retributors can take Flamers, Meltaguns, or Storm Bolters. And it is odd that Null Rods are free.
alextroy wrote: Unfortunately, the MFM 2021 Mk 1 is full of errors. We all know that Retributors can take Flamers, Meltaguns, or Storm Bolters. And it is odd that Null Rods are free.
Are you talking about Dominions?
That should have been "We all know that Retributors can't take Flamers, Meltaguns, or Storm Bolters" and yet the MFM entry for Retributors gives you the points cost for them. It also provides the points cost for Heavy Bolters, Heavy Flamers, and Multi-Meltas for Dominions. Given those errors, I'm not 100% sold that their are not unintentional omissions along with these inappropriate inclusions.
Ah yes, you're right. Likely a copy paste error. I doubt we see an FAQ to their FAQ quickly so let's just assume these are simple errors for the time being. It is odd that by the document the Simulacrum become FREE and it also looks like the Gemine Power swords are now free and they cost 18pts total.
Geminae Power Swords, I think, have been folded into the unit's cost, same with Zephyrim. It's because they are a non-optional piece of gear; they can't choose to not take power swords.
Quick after-action report: I took 1500 points against Imperial Guard tonight and won a pretty lopsided victory (87-22). I ran two Exos, three Rhinos, two Celestians, Dominions, Zephyrim, and two relic-toting Canonesses, among others. He brought Creed, Nork, Pask, a Tank Commander, Wyvern, Manticore, Sentinels, Ratlings, and a Vindicare on top of the core troops. I've played variations of his list before... the mix of indirect fire and sniper fire have made it difficult to use the board effectively and I've had trouble keeping my auras intact and using terrain to screen my advance. I managed to overcome those this time and do well with board control secondaries (Raise the Banners, Engage on All Fronts, and the mission secondary for Surround and Destroy). The first turn was a huge asset as usual, and I lucked out when he failed to destroy a transport in his first shooting phase. I got both Russes in Turn 3 and started running away with the points from there.
So, a very satisfactory game... I hope you're managing to sneak in a few from time to time as health and good sense allow!
Honestly I feel like Sisters are better prepared than most for dealing with DG nonsense. Their damage reduction ability is of limited use against our meltas or Exorcists, and useless against things like Arco-Flagellants or Mortifiers with flails (both are 1 damage weapons). Repentia will find themselves much less useful though. And DG's Contagion abilities will make their bolters wound on 2's vs. Sisters, which is not great for us. Perhaps if DG become popular in the meta, we'll see some people trade out a unit of Repentia for a unit of Zephyrim, as like Arcos their weapons are 1 damage and thus unaffected by the damage reduction, plus their native wound rerolls will help tremendously against DG's high Toughness models.
Death Guard do have some decent psychic powers and good characters to cast them, so it could be worth taking the Sacred Rite that actually makes the Sisters units' Deny the Witch relevant. And/or ally in an Inquisitor Psyker (DG don't easily give up full Abhor the Witch with the FAQ'd rules so no loss to us for bringing a psyker).
They certainly sound fun. I can't wait to see what else is coming! I'm so fired up to complete my Sisters kits that have been sitting aside while I goof off with Deathwatch.
Hey I have a quick question regarding sisters, if I have the Beacon of Faith warlord trait, do I generate a miracle dice if the warlord is embarked on a transport?
Or does she need to have her own boots on the ground?
Punisher wrote: Hey I have a quick question regarding sisters, if I have the Beacon of Faith warlord trait, do I generate a miracle dice if the warlord is embarked on a transport?
Or does she need to have her own boots on the ground?
Short answer is no, I don't think that works while she's embarked.
Long answer:
On the one hand the rulebook and FAQ only state that the model's abilities that affect other models no longer do that if they're embarked, and that the abilities of other models that would affect it no longer do (unless stated explicitly), and that they can't be the target of stratagems. So it's theoretically possible that some kind of warlord trait could be used while embarked.
However, at least in the case of Beacon, the model must be 'on the battlefield' - and I don't think they are in this case, as one of the steps of disembarking is placing the model on the battlefield.
Though if you think there's an angle where it could be done, you should ask YMDC on this one, as it also impacts a number of other armies I assume it's been debated to death.
Beacon of faith requires the warlord to be on the battlefield and embarked models are not on the battlefield or count as if they were on the battlefield.
Models have only one interaction with the game while they are embarked, they can shoot if their transport is open topped.
Blackie wrote: Beacon of faith requires the warlord to be on the battlefield and embarked models are not on the battlefield or count as if they were on the battlefield.
Models have only one interaction with the game while they are embarked, they can shoot if their transport is open topped.
Correct that the model has to be on the battlefield to generate the Miracle Dice and embarked in a transport isn't on the battle field.
As for what units in a Transport can do, absolutely nothing unless the Transport or the Unit has a special rule stating otherwise. Open Topped is the most common such rule, but there are others.
I was thinking of getting some Sororitas stuff for my wife for Valentines, and was wondering if any of the centerpiece models are also competitive choices? I am wholey unfamiliar with the faction competitively. She owns a lot of SoB, but stopped playing during 8th meaning her last "new" model was Saint Celestine.
Are Triumph of St. Katherine, Judith Eruita, or the not-Penitent Engines any good?
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I was thinking of getting some Sororitas stuff for my wife for Valentines, and was wondering if any of the centerpiece models are also competitive choices? I am wholey unfamiliar with the faction competitively. She owns a lot of SoB, but stopped playing during 8th meaning her last "new" model was Saint Celestine.
Are Triumph of St. Katherine, Judith Eruita, or the not-Penitent Engines any good?
Triumph can be good in the right list. Junith is only worth it if you're running Order of Our Martyred Lady, which is not one of the more competitive orders. Mortifiers are pretty solid little units that can both shoot and punch, plus they come 2 in a box.
With the deathguard and Dark Angels coming out, I am looking more towards zephyrim over repentia in my lists. If the trend I am seeing continues with dark eldar then I dont see damage two being worth it for such a glass hammer unit. Especially with all the fight last out there.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I was thinking of getting some Sororitas stuff for my wife for Valentines, and was wondering if any of the centerpiece models are also competitive choices? I am wholey unfamiliar with the faction competitively. She owns a lot of SoB, but stopped playing during 8th meaning her last "new" model was Saint Celestine.
Are Triumph of St. Katherine, Judith Eruita, or the not-Penitent Engines any good?
The only unit in the Codex you can't make viable are crusaders.
Mortifiers were a popular hyper-competitive choice and will likely continue to be, ever after the point hike; Triumph has a place if you can figure out how to make it work on the table and Junith is at worse, a cost effective St C
If I could ask, what do "staple" competitive Sororitas lists look like?
When my wife last played it was all Retributors in the open-topped FW transports, so she owns loads of 'em. What sorts of stuff are broadly desirable to get the collection up to speed?
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: If I could ask, what do "staple" competitive Sororitas lists look like?
When my wife last played it was all Retributors in the open-topped FW transports, so she owns loads of 'em. What sorts of stuff are broadly desirable to get the collection up to speed?
It's actually easier to tell you what isn't competitive.
Units that have made an appearance in competitive lists include everything except Penitent Engines (the preference is for Mortifiers), Crusaders, Geminae, and the Battle Sanctum (due to the way setting up fortifications is so limited).
There have been some successful competitive lists using everything else at some point or another. Bloody Rose armies do one hell of a good job making Celestians, Zephyrim, Seraphim, and Repentia really zing offensively. Valorous Heart make things survive a long while. Retributors are extremely powerful. Repentia are very deadly glass cannons. BSS are your backbone. Hell, the Las Vegas Nopen was won by a mixed Imperium force of Sisters and Custodes that included Death Cult Assassins for actions.
We aren't joking when we say nearly everything is viable especially if it's part of the plastic relaunch. You can make pretty decent lists with Argent Shroud and Martyred Lady armies as well, even if those aren't representing the most cutting edge of competitive play.
Note that the Repressor (the open topped transport) is basically Legends now, so you won't see it in competitive lists.
That is awesome to hear! When these were last dusted off stuff like Celestians had so little identity, and few units had much to offer.
We're absolutely bummed that Repressor's got squatted, as they cost a pretty penny, but I suppose they can become fancy Rhinos.
I suppose we'll just pick up a few units of each new item as the bulk of her army is complete, and 99% of the infantry are Toughest Girls in the Galaxy, so they don't look nearly as dated as the OG metals.
The OG metals just pale in comparison to the new plastics. I know have two armies worth of SOB infantry, one in metal and one in plastic. I just took actually painting the Battle Box to put me on the full replacement binge.
I love hearing about older Sisters armies coming out of retirement and getting a reboot... as mine has. Theres a stark difference in scale between old and new models, but nothing that gets in the way of enjoying them on the table. The new plastics are really fun to paint and the codex is very playable in a lot of different styles.
Here's a tactics question that's been rattling around in my brain: I listened to an Art of War podcast with a Sisters player who was doing well in Australia. There were frequent references to the early, mid, and late game and specific board positioning and scoring strategies.
I'm wondering if some of you have a mindset going into a game of "this army wants to lie low in the early game, overwhelm a flank in the mid game, and use its mobility to selectively score late game objectives" or something like that. If so, how universal is your thinking, and how dependent on build, order, mission, and opponent? I'd love to hear some of you who are getting in regular games verbalize your tactical mindset.
MacPhail wrote: I love hearing about older Sisters armies coming out of retirement and getting a reboot... as mine has. Theres a stark difference in scale between old and new models, but nothing that gets in the way of enjoying them on the table. The new plastics are really fun to paint and the codex is very playable in a lot of different styles.
Here's a tactics question that's been rattling around in my brain: I listened to an Art of War podcast with a Sisters player who was doing well in Australia. There were frequent references to the early, mid, and late game and specific board positioning and scoring strategies.
I'm wondering if some of you have a mindset going into a game of "this army wants to lie low in the early game, overwhelm a flank in the mid game, and use its mobility to selectively score late game objectives" or something like that. If so, how universal is your thinking, and how dependent on build, order, mission, and opponent? I'd love to hear some of you who are getting in regular games verbalize your tactical mindset.
I have not gotten any games in for 9th (stupid covid lockdowns), but I was a competitive player before the lockdown so take what I say with a grain of salt.
No matter what army you play you are going to want to be paying attention to those things and are going to want to have many of them planned out during or before deployment, possibly as early as the army development stage.
For example: Deploy scramblers
Alright, my armies plan is to take and hold the midboard so on turn one I will have one of my backfield sisters deploy scramblers. I will then move in one of my outflanking DCA 2 lady squads to deploy scramblers on their side of the field leaving turn 3-5 to get the middle of the table scrambler whenever I have an openning with a unit that I dont need to shoot.
This is going to be pretty reliable irregardless of what your opponent brings.
Recon:
I can easily get two table quarters on my side with units I am not going to lose so those are pretty reliable. If I want to get 3 table quarters I will likely be able to do that without throwing away a unit, however if I go for 4 it will cost me two units a turn. Can I maintain those losses while still getting the primary? Well I know on turn three I am bringing in the DCA to sacrifice so that will give me a free 3 for one turn since I was sacrificing them anyway. Same with my unit of melta seraphim so I will have the DCA come in on a different quarter so that the seraphim still have their ideal target while the DCA take the 4th quarter for me on this turn. However to get it on turn 4 I need to have enough units alive to claim that many table quarters, so going all in on turn 3 might not be worth the risk since it gives me a low chance at getting 5 more points but it opens me up to losing out on 2 from recon as well as a counter push taking enough objectives to cost me 5 primary points.
Army planning for both of these: Alright how many units MINIMUM dedicated solely to completing objectives will I need. Alright for deploy scramblers I will need 1 per turn. For Recon I will need 4 per turn. Any other qualities they need? The ability to get into my enemies table half or have some movement ability. Do I expect them to do anything else? Yes/No. Okay so for deploy scramblers I will want at least 1 throw away unit that is a cheap as possible, not a character, and infantry. Alright so a unit of 2 DCA will do the trick. That also gives me one turn of Recon as well. Solid investment.
Do I want them to do this while also potentially taking a lightly defended objective? Alright so I dont have any way to get obsec back there so it has to be a unit that can kill a 5 man marine unit(as an example) off the table in one round. Since the objective wont be in range of my reserves I need to also make it so the unit can do this with a combination of shooting and combat. Alright this sounds like the job for a decent size unit of zephrim or two with celestine.
MacPhail wrote: I love hearing about older Sisters armies coming out of retirement and getting a reboot... as mine has. Theres a stark difference in scale between old and new models, but nothing that gets in the way of enjoying them on the table. The new plastics are really fun to paint and the codex is very playable in a lot of different styles.
Here's a tactics question that's been rattling around in my brain: I listened to an Art of War podcast with a Sisters player who was doing well in Australia. There were frequent references to the early, mid, and late game and specific board positioning and scoring strategies.
I'm wondering if some of you have a mindset going into a game of "this army wants to lie low in the early game, overwhelm a flank in the mid game, and use its mobility to selectively score late game objectives" or something like that. If so, how universal is your thinking, and how dependent on build, order, mission, and opponent? I'd love to hear some of you who are getting in regular games verbalize your tactical mindset.
I have not gotten any games in for 9th (stupid covid lockdowns), but I was a competitive player before the lockdown so take what I say with a grain of salt.
No matter what army you play you are going to want to be paying attention to those things and are going to want to have many of them planned out during or before deployment, possibly as early as the army development stage.
For example: Deploy scramblers
Alright, my armies plan is to take and hold the midboard so on turn one I will have one of my backfield sisters deploy scramblers. I will then move in one of my outflanking DCA 2 lady squads to deploy scramblers on their side of the field leaving turn 3-5 to get the middle of the table scrambler whenever I have an openning with a unit that I dont need to shoot.
This is going to be pretty reliable irregardless of what your opponent brings.
Recon:
I can easily get two table quarters on my side with units I am not going to lose so those are pretty reliable. If I want to get 3 table quarters I will likely be able to do that without throwing away a unit, however if I go for 4 it will cost me two units a turn. Can I maintain those losses while still getting the primary? Well I know on turn three I am bringing in the DCA to sacrifice so that will give me a free 3 for one turn since I was sacrificing them anyway. Same with my unit of melta seraphim so I will have the DCA come in on a different quarter so that the seraphim still have their ideal target while the DCA take the 4th quarter for me on this turn. However to get it on turn 4 I need to have enough units alive to claim that many table quarters, so going all in on turn 3 might not be worth the risk since it gives me a low chance at getting 5 more points but it opens me up to losing out on 2 from recon as well as a counter push taking enough objectives to cost me 5 primary points.
Army planning for both of these: Alright how many units MINIMUM dedicated solely to completing objectives will I need. Alright for deploy scramblers I will need 1 per turn. For Recon I will need 4 per turn. Any other qualities they need? The ability to get into my enemies table half or have some movement ability. Do I expect them to do anything else? Yes/No. Okay so for deploy scramblers I will want at least 1 throw away unit that is a cheap as possible, not a character, and infantry. Alright so a unit of 2 DCA will do the trick. That also gives me one turn of Recon as well. Solid investment.
Do I want them to do this while also potentially taking a lightly defended objective? Alright so I dont have any way to get obsec back there so it has to be a unit that can kill a 5 man marine unit(as an example) off the table in one round. Since the objective wont be in range of my reserves I need to also make it so the unit can do this with a combination of shooting and combat. Alright this sounds like the job for a decent size unit of zephrim or two with celestine.
Thanks a lot for this explanation. It really helped me wrap my head around a couple of things.
You know, the more i see what the standard weapons are, and the more I do the math, the more a valorous heart battalion with bloody rose patrol seems like the way to go(at least for me).
So many weapons that are also high volume of fire are getting -1 or -2.
Thinking about a backfield sister squad in cover sitting on a home objective(and thus outside of the imagifier aura).
5 sisters with a 2+ save against -0 - it takes 30 wounds to dislodge them
5 sisters with a 2+ save against -1 - it takes 15 wounds to dislodge them
5 sisters with a 2+ save against -2 - it takes 10 wounds to dislodge them
5 sisters with a 3+ save against -0 - it takes 15 wounds to dislodge them
5 sisters with a 3+ save against -1 - it takes 10 wounds to dislodge them
5 sisters with a 3+ save against -2 - it takes 7.5 wounds to dislodge them
Valorous heart can double-triple the number of wounds it takes to kill a model, and will apply to a significant majority of the weapons we see in the game that matter.
I personally think that with the new deathguard, deathwing, and probably dark eldar, the whole "Always be charging" with bloody rose and repentia is not going to hold up well. Those units are just too durable to have that as a core strategy(at fully buffed repentia squad kills 1-2 fully buffed deathwing terminator with stormshield on the charge). You are not going to be able to reliably dislodge these units in one go, they are going to hold and then easily kill in return. The army will need some durability to survive the return/initial fire.
I have not gotten any games in for 9th (stupid covid lockdowns), but I was a competitive player before the lockdown so take what I say with a grain of salt.
No matter what army you play you are going to want to be paying attention to those things and are going to want to have many of them planned out during or before deployment, possibly as early as the army development stage.
For example: Deploy scramblers
Alright, my armies plan is to take and hold the midboard so on turn one I will have one of my backfield sisters deploy scramblers. I will then move in one of my outflanking DCA 2 lady squads to deploy scramblers on their side of the field leaving turn 3-5 to get the middle of the table scrambler whenever I have an openning with a unit that I dont need to shoot.
This is going to be pretty reliable irregardless of what your opponent brings.
Recon:
I can easily get two table quarters on my side with units I am not going to lose so those are pretty reliable. If I want to get 3 table quarters I will likely be able to do that without throwing away a unit, however if I go for 4 it will cost me two units a turn. Can I maintain those losses while still getting the primary? Well I know on turn three I am bringing in the DCA to sacrifice so that will give me a free 3 for one turn since I was sacrificing them anyway. Same with my unit of melta seraphim so I will have the DCA come in on a different quarter so that the seraphim still have their ideal target while the DCA take the 4th quarter for me on this turn. However to get it on turn 4 I need to have enough units alive to claim that many table quarters, so going all in on turn 3 might not be worth the risk since it gives me a low chance at getting 5 more points but it opens me up to losing out on 2 from recon as well as a counter push taking enough objectives to cost me 5 primary points.
Army planning for both of these: Alright how many units MINIMUM dedicated solely to completing objectives will I need. Alright for deploy scramblers I will need 1 per turn. For Recon I will need 4 per turn. Any other qualities they need? The ability to get into my enemies table half or have some movement ability. Do I expect them to do anything else? Yes/No. Okay so for deploy scramblers I will want at least 1 throw away unit that is a cheap as possible, not a character, and infantry. Alright so a unit of 2 DCA will do the trick. That also gives me one turn of Recon as well. Solid investment.
Do I want them to do this while also potentially taking a lightly defended objective? Alright so I dont have any way to get obsec back there so it has to be a unit that can kill a 5 man marine unit(as an example) off the table in one round. Since the objective wont be in range of my reserves I need to also make it so the unit can do this with a combination of shooting and combat. Alright this sounds like the job for a decent size unit of zephrim or two with celestine.
Yes! That's the high level thinking and conversation I was imagining. I can see that Engage on All Fronts, Deploy Scramblers, and Raise the Banners are viable for mobile MSU armies like ours, but I wasnt able to see through the haze of having only played four very cautious games in the last year to get a grip on the thinking.
Theres also the question of the difference in thinking around "hold two" group of missions vs. the "hold three" group, and then getting down to individual missions and their board setups and secondaries.
Finally theres enemy build categories... in the same way that we tend towards "highly mobile MSU with a few glass cannons in melee" I know there are other broad categories, like "high T low count armies that are hard to shift" and so on. Some armies special rules will probably make them a type unto themselves, like silver tide Necrons, as will armies that mess with our auras, but I'm trying to think tactically in terms of types of opponents.
Most armies can be broken down into how you have to kill them, extra rules just add to the difficulty.
9th edition is shaping up to have a lot more diversity not only across codexes but within codexes. My goal when building a list is “can I deal with general categories” and then worry about the specifics at the table while knowing the general rules.
if they are a meta choice and build then I focus on the specifics.
So for example my current project is figuring out how to deal with desthwing. Primary strategy that comes to mind right now is just ignore the main blob and then the rest depends on how they deploy. If they put a lot of models in reserve then my plan is to just deep strike block my half of the field and push up.
another factor during army construction, “Do I have the ability to deploy block my entire half of the field without a significant sacrifice of ability to focus on the mission?
Often times this means I find myself having to allocate 100-200 points just to small units to fill the board since each unit has an 18 in diameter of denial. This is also a good place where action monkey units are good to have in your list. I probably will always have at least two DCA because they give me board control as well as units that can perform actions without losing out on other things. I need to take another look at geminae to see which actions are character restricted.
Leth wrote: It is probably easier to use now since terrain is supposed to be adjusted based on the mission.
How do you mean? From what I understood, the ability to place it was severely limited to the point that it is nearly impossible to find a viable spot on most boards.
Leth wrote: You place terrain after things like objectives now, so it should be easier to find a place to put it.
This doesn't help it at all b.c fortifications still needs to be 3" away from terrain (other than hills) and objectives. When setting up terrain they can not force an objective higher than ground floor. Of you normally need to give some room for objectives (not always) but this makes it harder a little. Given the tables are now smaller (60x44) and they want 15 pieces minimum of various sizes (1 piece per every 12x12, that is 5 wide and 3 long with some extra room). There will be limited space to place it.
Its not just a problem with this kit, there are many forts that are nearly if not impossible to place.
Essentially if you have to place it more than 3"away from other terrain as per faq you can't because you will always be to near another piece but their are tournaments that are houseruling the faq doesn't apply because it prevents a lot of models being played
Leth wrote: You place terrain after things like objectives now, so it should be easier to find a place to put it.
I'm not sure I follow, apologies if I'm missing something obvious. It isn't terrain, so it is placed when you deploy and it must be more than 3" away from any terrain piece, right?
Leth wrote: You place terrain after things like objectives now, so it should be easier to find a place to put it.
I'm not sure I follow, apologies if I'm missing something obvious. It isn't terrain, so it is placed when you deploy and it must be more than 3" away from any terrain piece, right?
That is correct so on the average board you can't place anywhere. As terrain is normally fixed at events and good luck finding an empty square foot of table in your deployment zone.equally if your following their guidance on how much terrain should be on a table you don't end up with an empty square foot.
Would anyone care to sound off on preferred Celestian loadouts? I've just built one unit of new plastics running melta/melta/combi-melta with a simulacrum and a cherub to make the most of their native rerolls. I have an older unit of classic metal minis to run a larger squad bare-bones just for soaking wounds. What other combinations are finding success, including Order-specific synergies? I'm thinking I'll poach the power maul from the Retributers box since they'll make better use of it. What about pistols? Favorite stratagem exploits? Transport tactics? I'm loving the datasheet and want to make the most of it.
Unfortunately, we know nothing. At this point, it appears to be a mono-construction model with Power Sword and Plasma Pistol. We haven't even seen an alternate head.
MacPhail wrote: Would anyone care to sound off on preferred Celestian loadouts? I've just built one unit of new plastics running melta/melta/combi-melta with a simulacrum and a cherub to make the most of their native rerolls. I have an older unit of classic metal minis to run a larger squad bare-bones just for soaking wounds. What other combinations are finding success, including Order-specific synergies? I'm thinking I'll poach the power maul from the Retributers box since they'll make better use of it. What about pistols? Favorite stratagem exploits? Transport tactics? I'm loving the datasheet and want to make the most of it.
I was figuring on that exact loadout myself. 3 Meltas with a Simulacrum and Cherub. And probably a Power Maul on the Superior for some CC punch, as Celestians are nasty in melee in Bloody Rose. I've seen some comp lists running a Multi-melta on one girl instead of a standard Melta, but that seems to be a matter of taste as Celestians don't ignore the movement penalty, but they do have the full reroll stratagem.
I figure, if you're going to pay the extra points and the Elites slot to run Celestians, might as well tool 'em up and make the most of 'em.
MacPhail wrote: Would anyone care to sound off on preferred Celestian loadouts? I've just built one unit of new plastics running melta/melta/combi-melta with a simulacrum and a cherub to make the most of their native rerolls. I have an older unit of classic metal minis to run a larger squad bare-bones just for soaking wounds. What other combinations are finding success, including Order-specific synergies? I'm thinking I'll poach the power maul from the Retributers box since they'll make better use of it. What about pistols? Favorite stratagem exploits? Transport tactics? I'm loving the datasheet and want to make the most of it.
I was figuring on that exact loadout myself. 3 Meltas with a Simulacrum and Cherub. And probably a Power Maul on the Superior for some CC punch, as Celestians are nasty in melee in Bloody Rose. I've seen some comp lists running a Multi-melta on one girl instead of a standard Melta, but that seems to be a matter of taste as Celestians don't ignore the movement penalty, but they do have the full reroll stratagem.
I figure, if you're going to pay the extra points and the Elites slot to run Celestians, might as well tool 'em up and make the most of 'em.
Not just the Stratagem - if near a Canoness they get full hit rerolls. Even on the move that makes your MM hit 75% of the time. I find the extra shot and range is more than worth the extra 10 points.
I have a question about Spirit of the Martyr. If a sisters squad gets assaulted and looses some members and the models that get removed and roll a 5+ are taken from the back >1" from enemy models(so not eligible to make CC attacks) what are they able to do?
I assume they can't shoot since the unit is in CC and I assume they can't punch back because they themselves aren't close enough. Does this just leave them to use a bolt pistol if they have it?
Punisher wrote: I have a question about Spirit of the Martyr. If a sisters squad gets assaulted and looses some members and the models that get removed and roll a 5+ are taken from the back >1" from enemy models(so not eligible to make CC attacks) what are they able to do?
I assume they can't shoot since the unit is in CC and I assume they can't punch back because they themselves aren't close enough. Does this just leave them to use a bolt pistol if they have it?
I think you have the right idea here, just keep in mind there's more to it than being within 1" of enemy models. But even after everything if you can't actually get them within Engagement Range then while you could technically do either option - the only way you're actually going to be rolling any dice is to shoot with their bolt pistols.
Thankfully I think every power armored sister has a bolt pistol spirited away somewhere.
On celestians, I think 3x Melta + Power Sword [Axe if permitted, otherwise I just use a sword] is probably the way I'd go. Maybe mounted up or just wandering around. Mostly, I'd use them in melee actually, so I don't think I'd invest too much in heavy weapons. I'd put my multimeltas on Immos or Rets.
Vilgeir wrote: It's a good thing I flipping love Immolators, otherwise that box would be a turn off.
I'm definitely disappointed they didn't go with Repentia instead of Rets, because then it could have been the BDSM cult faceoff box.
Punisher wrote: I have a question about Spirit of the Martyr. If a sisters squad gets assaulted and looses some members and the models that get removed and roll a 5+ are taken from the back >1" from enemy models(so not eligible to make CC attacks) what are they able to do?
I assume they can't shoot since the unit is in CC and I assume they can't punch back because they themselves aren't close enough. Does this just leave them to use a bolt pistol if they have it?
The dying models can either:
Fight if within 1/2" of a model that is within 1/2" of an enemy model
Shoot with a Pistol, following the targeting rules for firing Pistols, as you may fire a Pistol while your unit is within Engagement Range of an enemy unit
Do we have any tricks up our sleeve to deal with Transhuman Physiology now that Dark Angels are in the meta? I think Holy Trinity doesn't help because its unmodified rolls... what else is there?
I play against a DA player and honestly, we have nothing to worry about. I dont play my sisters vs him anymore b.c sob are too good. While he does have DW termies, some bikes, apoths, Lieutenant, and Cap, he does not take Bladeguard. But its otherwise a normal list.
Transhuman means you just have to add more attacks to each unit, the problem is our damage is so high, using 2 units to kill 1 isn't a problem and we always have the upper hand, sometimes depending on the unit its never a problem. The worst problem is all the dang invuls, Transhuman has meant almost nothing compare to invuls.
I don't need another Immolator even though I only own 2, but I'd buy the box in a heartbeat if I could figure out what to do with the Drukhari half. I'm not starting another army!
Just played a game with my Sisters vs. my friend's AdMech and Knights. We were running fairly casual 2000 point lists. Only played to turn 3 due to time (I won but if we'd gone the distance I might not have). I ran the following list:
Spoiler:
Order of the Bloody Rose Battalion:
Celestine (Warlord: Beacon of Faith)
Canoness: Benificence, Bolt Pistol, Heroine in the Making (Righteous Rage)
10-girl Battle Sister Squad: 2x Meltagun, Combi-melta, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
5-girl Battle Sister Squad: 2x Flamer, Combi-flamer
5-girl Battle Sister Squad: 2x Storm Bolter
5-girl Battle Sister Squad: Heavy Bolter
10-girl Celestian Squad: 2x Meltagun, Combi-melta, Power Maul, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
2x 9-girl Repentia Squads
Dialogus
Imagifier: Venerated Saint, Tale of the Stoic, Tale of the Warrior, Book of St. Lucius
Preacher
5-girl Seraphim Squad: Plasma Pistol/Power Sword on Superior
5-girl Dominion Squad: 4x Storm Bolter
Exorcist: Missile Launcher, Hunter-Killer Missile
5-girl Retributor Squad: 4x Multi-melta, 2x Armorium Cherub
5-girl Retributor Squad: 4x Heavy Bolter, 2x Armorium Cherub
2x Sororitas Rhino
2-model Death Cult Assassins
Repentia Superior
My opponent ran the following:
Spoiler:
Battalion Detachment (not sure what Forge World dogma)
2x Tech-Priest Enginseer
3x 3-model Kataphron Breachers: Arc Rifles
3x 3-model Kataphron Destroyers: Grav weapons
2x single Ironstrider Balistarii: Autocannons
2-model Kastelan Robots: 3x Phosphor Blasters
Super-Heavy Detachment: House Taranis
Knight Crusader: Thermal Cannon, Stormspear Rocket Pod, Warlord: Ion Bulwark, Armor of the Sainted Ion
2x Armiger Moirax: Lightning Locks
The table we played on had too little terrain on it (a little too close to Planet Bowling Ball), and my opponent tore into my army since he got the first turn. He killed my melta and Heavy Bolter BSS units and a handful of other models. Both of my Rhinos full of Repentia exploded, and when I rolled for the girls inside for one of them I rolled 6 1's. Ouch. I did manage to get the other squad of Repentia into some Kataphrons and an encroaching Ironstrider, killing both and piling into a unit of Destroyers and the other Ironstrider (some poor positioning by my opponent). I also killed one of the Armigers on the first turn thanks to my Exorcist and the Celestians. On turn 2, my opponent killed all of the surviving Repentia and half of the Celestian squad and managed to plink a few wounds off of the Exorcist (which got lucky and rolled 3 6's for invul saves against something, I can't remember what). On my turn 2, my reserves came in (except for the Assassins). The Seraphim dropped into my opponent's deployment zone (out of LOS) and deployed a scrambler (my second). My Exorcist and the Melta Retributors (out of reserves) killed the other Armiger and Ironstrider, and some of my other stuff killed all of the rest of my opponent's Breachers. On turn 3, my opponent managed to kill the last of the Celestians and Retributors, but he was now behind on points. On my half of the turn, I scored 15 primary points, finished Scramblers with my DCA, got a charge in on the Kastelans with the Seraphim and Celestine, and basically spread out over the table quarters (I had taken Engage on All Fronts). This is where we called it because the shop was getting ready to close. If the game had gone on, my opponent might very well have caught up on points. He had taken Assassinate as one of his secondaries and I had several exposed characters, so he very likely would have maxed that. He had also taken Engage but had not yet scored anything on it, so I would have been ahead there. He had also taken Thin Their Ranks, which he would have gotten a fair amount on as I might have been tabled. My third secondary was the mission secondary, which I had a few points on but not that many. So really it was a close game that could have gone either way.
My takeaways:
-9th edition really needs a decent amount of terrain, including good LOS blockers and some stuff that provides cover.
-Exorcists are better than they get credit for, but I think you really need 3 of them, or none, to make them truly shine. Mine survived way longer than it should have, mostly due to some awful rolls by my opponent with his Knight's Thermal Cannon.
Repentia are kind of a cruise missile. They go in, kill one or two things really, really dead, and then they get slaughtered. Again, unless there's pretty good terrain nearby. They need to be used very wisely, and it's probably a waste to take much support for them (like Preachers or Superiors). I also suspect they fail hard against Death Guard due to the damage reduction, and probably struggle against Dark Angels too.
Celestians are really good, especially near a Canoness for the full hit rerolls. They are great melta caddies to supplement the Retributors. I didn't get mine into melee before they died, but they did pretty good with their guns.
-Sisters have a lot of special rules and whatnot going on, so it's easy to forget things. I completely forgot my Sacred Rites in this game (would have probably taken The Passion).
-Miracle Dice are nice, but you can't always lean on them. I rolled way too many 1's and 3's for them, and only a single 6. I definitely think it's worth taking the Beacon of Faith trait for the extra one every turn. Extra ones are nice for Moment of Grace or the stratagem to stand a character back up.
From today's Next Week in Warhammer talking about the contents of the Piety and Pain box set:
The Adepta Sororitas army includes five heavy-weapon toting Retributors with a pair of Armorium Cherubs, a heavily armoured Immolator, and a Palatine – a new hero with head and weapons options.
Praise the Emperor! Weapon options for the Palatine!
While not a sisters player, can I just say that the new castigator is absolutely amazing? It appears to be halfway between a predator and a russ, but it does so in a very sob manner. I just love it!
No its not... Its TRASH.. GW fails us again... Whoever is in charge of this line should be fired. WE DONT NEED ANOTHER HEAVY OPTION!!! How bout you fix our FLYER slot!!!! You know the one that we have ZERO OPTIONS FOR!!!!!...HOW BOUT YOU FIX OUR HQ SLOTS Give us real gear options! Give us back our Jump packs and Evisorators!!!!!!!! 2 OPTIONS in Fast Attack!!!! and the Dumba$$es at GW want to give us ANOTHER HEAVY!!!! WE HAVE 5 ALREADY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Blood Angels player here going into a tournament next week, and I’m worried about Sisters because I have never encountered them in 9th. I figured this was the right place to ask, what are Sisters’ play style and weaknesses, and how do I need to play to those weaknesses? Thanks!
1) turret is not churchy enough. Immolator is stained glass and shrines and wood and cherub- awesome. Exorcist is wood and cherubs and organ and organist- awesome.
This....is a predator turret on top the sisters rhino chassis.
Nope. Aesthetic failure.
2) non- holy trinity weapon loadout. Even people who don't play sisters know the 3 weapons the girls have. Bolter, melta, flamer. That's it. It is literally religious.
This has a...battle cannon? Or an auto cannon? No. Army identity failure.
SirGunslinger wrote: Blood Angels player here going into a tournament next week, and I’m worried about Sisters because I have never encountered them in 9th. I figured this was the right place to ask, what are Sisters’ play style and weaknesses, and how do I need to play to those weaknesses? Thanks!
Sisters have a quiet a variety of play styles to be honest - not managed to play 9th because of lock down but I think some of this is still true.
They have excellent short range firepower - only improved by 9th - eps stuff like Heavy Bolters. Watch out for Miracle Dice - they can build upa pool of these that can make risky or important rolls automatic - IF they get the right rolls to store away of course. I find them also very CP hungry with many powerful Strats
They can be very resiliant and/or in your face assault.
Also pretty much everything has an invulneable if only 6+.
1) turret is not churchy enough. Immolator is stained glass and shrines and wood and cherub- awesome. Exorcist is wood and cherubs and organ and organist- awesome.
This....is a predator turret on top the sisters rhino chassis.
Nope. Aesthetic failure.
2) non- holy trinity weapon loadout. Even people who don't play sisters know the 3 weapons the girls have. Bolter, melta, flamer. That's it. It is literally religious.
This has a...battle cannon? Or an auto cannon? No. Army identity failure.
Are you joking? The thing is literally covered in filigree and wrought-iron spikes and the holy trinity has never, ever, been the be-all end-all of the Sisters' armament choices.
Leth wrote:Hope they FAQ the palatine sheet soon so we know one way or the other. Right now it’s busted.
Why, what's wrong with it?
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SirGunslinger wrote: Blood Angels player here going into a tournament next week, and I’m worried about Sisters because I have never encountered them in 9th. I figured this was the right place to ask, what are Sisters’ play style and weaknesses, and how do I need to play to those weaknesses? Thanks!
This can vary depending on what their build is, sisters are a power armour army that can field more bodies due to lower ppm, but the flipside to that is lower toughness and combined with the tools we have to ignore AP1 or even AP2 under the right circumstances means that anti-horde weapons like bolters and flamers will fare a bit better and traditional marine-killer weapons will fare a little bit worse.
As for tactics, it depends on their build but most of the army wants to get in close. Pick out specific units that you can focus down and take the army apart systematically, keep an eye out for heavy and special weapons specifically, and remember that retributors can move and fire without a shooting penalty. If you have the ability to snipe characters I think the Imagifier is a priority over the Canoness. Melee focussed units can put out a lot of damage but they get hurt easily - remember that they have an advance-and-charge stratagem and don't underestimate how fast they can get to you. Seraphim and Zephyrim can deep strike, so be mindful of that if you see them.
SirGunslinger wrote: Blood Angels player here going into a tournament next week, and I’m worried about Sisters because I have never encountered them in 9th. I figured this was the right place to ask, what are Sisters’ play style and weaknesses, and how do I need to play to those weaknesses? Thanks!
Any combination of S6 and -3AP is pretty potent... I struggle with Necrons for that reason (Destroyers, Wraiths, etc.). S6 wounds us on 2s, and -3AP makes any investment in ignore -1 and -2AP (in a Valorous Heart list) meaningless, both in terms of upgrades and tactics. High volumes of fire at better than S3 is effective in general... Punisher Gatling Cannons tend to chew through my girls just on number of dice alone, so your Baal Preds might make good on their points.
Somebody had me excited with "weapon options" for the palatine. Yeah, that turned out to be a weird disappointment. I suppose that's what's supposed to be fixed on the datasheet. Proper GW quality control. On the sheet she comes automatically with a plasma pistol AND bolt pistol. The Bolt pistol can be switched for the rosarius that you see in all the images and that gives her a 4++. Otherwise she has two pistols. Cool, but useless. The thing is with the sprue, both pistols are a right hand and the rosarius is always on the model. That's pretty dumb.
Sweet, was wanting to know the options so I can convert my Amalia Novena to one. Scabbard powersword and replace bolter with plasma pistol.
I also agree with above poster in regards to new tank. It's bland, really uninspiring in general in it's design (ignore chassis, focus on turret, the only new part). If I really wanted another heavy support, I'd find a way to kitbash it, but in reality I'd rather just add another Exorcist so it's no loss.
bullyboy wrote: I also agree with above poster in regards to new tank. It's bland, really uninspiring in general in it's design (ignore chassis, focus on turret, the only new part). If I really wanted another heavy support, I'd find a way to kitbash it, but in reality I'd rather just add another Exorcist so it's no loss.
Technically the top of the chassis and the less fiery braziers are also new - necessary changes to let the turret traverse. But the only bare spots on that turret are the forward sloped armour and the top of the main hull (which needs clearance for the hatch and storm bolter, and space for people to walk on)
I do see what you mean in that it's got some prominent space that's all black but the overall effect is still a tank that has way too much bling.
Us3Less wrote: Somebody had me excited with "weapon options" for the palatine. Yeah, that turned out to be a weird disappointment. I suppose that's what's supposed to be fixed on the datasheet. Proper GW quality control. On the sheet she comes automatically with a plasma pistol AND bolt pistol. The Bolt pistol can be switched for the rosarius that you see in all the images and that gives her a 4++. Otherwise she has two pistols. Cool, but useless. The thing is with the sprue, both pistols are a right hand and the rosarius is always on the model. That's pretty dumb.
Right now you default to having both a plasma pistol and bolt pistol. The default build out is not possible to build from the sprues which is why I think it is an error since both the plasma and bolt pistol are in the same hand. You then swap the bolt pistol for a rosarius, which seems odd.
However if the gunslinger version is intended? I’ll enjoy it, put Celestines doves on the base.
1) turret is not churchy enough. Immolator is stained glass and shrines and wood and cherub- awesome. Exorcist is wood and cherubs and organ and organist- awesome.
This....is a predator turret on top the sisters rhino chassis.
Nope. Aesthetic failure.
2) non- holy trinity weapon loadout. Even people who don't play sisters know the 3 weapons the girls have. Bolter, melta, flamer. That's it. It is literally religious.
This has a...battle cannon? Or an auto cannon? No. Army identity failure.
Not everything in the Sisters armory is from the Trinity. There are a whole lot of Plasma Pistols and Combi-Plasmas out there and the Exorcist is a multi-missile launcher. No reason they can't have battle cannon or autocannon tank.
Leth wrote: Right now you default to having both a plasma pistol and bolt pistol. The default build out is not possible to build from the sprues which is why I think it is an error since both the plasma and bolt pistol are in the same hand. You then swap the bolt pistol for a rosarius, which seems odd.
It is a super odd datasheet. I'm sure they will get around to putting out an errata since it should be a model armed with Bolt Pistol, Power Sword, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, and Rosarious with the option to swap the Bolt Pistol with a Plasma Pistol. I am sorely disappointed the "options" included in the kit are a pistol swap and a helmeted head. I was hoping for so much more after the Canoness kit, but she is a high water mark for modern character kits from GW.
Us3Less wrote: Sadly he did not show the points. Haven't been able to find them yet.
There are no points or PL for some reason. I assume the P&P booklet comes with some sample missions using specific loadouts because otherwise theres no use for the palatine anywhere.
How many MM rets is too many? I've got 3 full squads in a list along with two immolaters but I'm considering dropping 1 squad for 3 mortifiers. (List is otherwise primarily 2x9 repentia and 1x8 zephrym, 1 melta pistol seraphim squad and a triumph along with a few other fixings)
Given the "War Hymns" line in the article and how they directly call her out as a Chaplain equivalent, I assume she'll have a mechanic similar to Litanies of Battle and Prayers to the Dark Gods (probably called War Hymns).
I see a lot of people complaining about the tank. I think it looks fine. The problem I have with it is that it has to compete with the exorcist and retributors for the heavy spot.
I see it having a spot if it is a good MEQ killer.
I think part of the issue is sister lacking a good problem to solve. They have most things covered, at least in the context of 9th edition. Maybe a terminator-esc durable stand-in-the-middle sort of deal would help (....wouldn't have it been awesome if those mechs were holding shields?) or a mobile HQ that isn't celestine. Conceptually I'd love some atalan jackal-esc bikes or sisters on horses, but I don't know if it's really a big missing part of the army.
But what is anyone really looking to cut from the lists?
drakerocket wrote: I think part of the issue is sister lacking a good problem to solve. They have most things covered, at least in the context of 9th edition. Maybe a terminator-esc durable stand-in-the-middle sort of deal would help (....wouldn't have it been awesome if those mechs were holding shields?) or a mobile HQ that isn't celestine. Conceptually I'd love some atalan jackal-esc bikes or sisters on horses, but I don't know if it's really a big missing part of the army.
But what is anyone really looking to cut from the lists?
I'd love to have the ability to cut Repentia and Retributors because I had a solid, comparable alternative to the problems they solve. I love those units, but every list I make seems to start with those as auto-picks because they're army defining in 9th. Sometimes it's even half my 2k point list in Rets, Repentia, and Rhinos.
They do the job so well, but there's no wiggle room in such a slim codex. I, for one, can't wait to see what the rules are for things like the warsuits, or the points cost on that tank in hopes that these items allow for effective alternative builds.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Given the "War Hymns" line in the article and how they directly call her out as a Chaplain equivalent, I assume she'll have a mechanic similar to Litanies of Battle and Prayers to the Dark Gods (probably called War Hymns).
"War Hymns" is the name of the rule Preachers and Missionaries have that gives +1A. The cynic in me thinks that maybe they split the two off, Preachers buff only EBC, Dogmata buffs only Sisters. But hey, if that do that, maybe it comes with sweeping buffs for the EBC stuff?
Amishprn86 wrote: That is a valid point, having options for the sake of options. Though I wish some other armies like Quins would get some first.
I would agree - never thought I would have the pleasure of saying - Sisters have plenty of super new models (and even a few duds) - lets see some other ranges getting the same love!
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Given the "War Hymns" line in the article and how they directly call her out as a Chaplain equivalent, I assume she'll have a mechanic similar to Litanies of Battle and Prayers to the Dark Gods (probably called War Hymns).
"War Hymns" is the name of the rule Preachers and Missionaries have that gives +1A. The cynic in me thinks that maybe they split the two off, Preachers buff only EBC, Dogmata buffs only Sisters. But hey, if that do that, maybe it comes with sweeping buffs for the EBC stuff?
Good point, I forgot that's what the Priest aura is called.
If she is just a +1 A buff in power armour with a better melee weapon, that'd be a bit lame. Especially if your cynical side is right...
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Given the "War Hymns" line in the article and how they directly call her out as a Chaplain equivalent, I assume she'll have a mechanic similar to Litanies of Battle and Prayers to the Dark Gods (probably called War Hymns).
"War Hymns" is the name of the rule Preachers and Missionaries have that gives +1A. The cynic in me thinks that maybe they split the two off, Preachers buff only EBC, Dogmata buffs only Sisters. But hey, if that do that, maybe it comes with sweeping buffs for the EBC stuff?
Good point, I forgot that's what the Priest aura is called.
If she is just a +1 A buff in power armour with a better melee weapon, that'd be a bit lame. Especially if your cynical side is right...
Meh, I dunno. I'm not against phasing out the preachers and EC. Plus, a cheap power armored beatstick giving out the buff could be fun.
I hope that two new characters and a new battle tank suggest some real redevelopment of the army for the 9th codex and not just tacking on some new kits to sell. Am I wrong to hope for a revision of some Order Convictions, Sacred Rites, and Warlord Traits to make other combos more playable? Maybe some way to generate mortal wounds? Something to target characters?
MacPhail wrote: I hope that two new characters and a new battle tank suggest some real redevelopment of the army for the 9th codex and not just tacking on some new kits to sell. Am I wrong to hope for a revision of some Order Convictions, Sacred Rites, and Warlord Traits to make other combos more playable? Maybe some way to generate mortal wounds? Something to target characters?
MacPhail wrote: I hope that two new characters and a new battle tank suggest some real redevelopment of the army for the 9th codex and not just tacking on some new kits to sell. Am I wrong to hope for a revision of some Order Convictions, Sacred Rites, and Warlord Traits to make other combos more playable? Maybe some way to generate mortal wounds? Something to target characters?
I mean... we have a sorce of mortal wounds...
We have a few ways to do one here or one there, mostly against psykers. Most 9th edition armies are cranking them out in the psychic phase when we're quiet, dealing d3 or more by multiple methods. And big models seem to be getting tougher to bring down as though MW are assumed. I could be way off, but that's my impression listening to competitive battle reports.
If I wanted to make Mortifiers are solid part of a list, are six a good purchase? We own plenty of Sisters, vehicles, etc... but only ten Repentia, so our next purchases stand to be more of them, six Mortifiers, or some combo of both.
I think Mortifiers would be solid due to the number of shots.
With more non-SM armies around the corner (nids, craftworld eldar, harlies, IG, GSC the meta is going to shift away from "every unit must be anti-Primaris".
Even now with Drukhari raiders getting 5++ saves and being low T for a vehicle, plus wyches dying to a stiff breeze I think some anti infantry guns are good and with the meta being 3x5 Sisters squads that's not even bolters to being to make a wyche squad, even a kabalite squad quake too hard.
Storm Bolter Dominions I think will be a solid choice in the future. Sisters can take lots of anti-tank but I'd rather not use MM's to kill gaunts or wyches or eldar gaurdians.
MacPhail wrote: I hope that two new characters and a new battle tank suggest some real redevelopment of the army for the 9th codex and not just tacking on some new kits to sell. Am I wrong to hope for a revision of some Order Convictions, Sacred Rites, and Warlord Traits to make other combos more playable? Maybe some way to generate mortal wounds? Something to target characters?
I mean... we have a sorce of mortal wounds...
We have a few ways to do one here or one there, mostly against psykers. Most 9th edition armies are cranking them out in the psychic phase when we're quiet, dealing d3 or more by multiple methods. And big models seem to be getting tougher to bring down as though MW are assumed. I could be way off, but that's my impression listening to competitive battle reports.
I was mostly refering to Stern & Straight Clown...
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:If I wanted to make Mortifiers are solid part of a list, are six a good purchase? We own plenty of Sisters, vehicles, etc... but only ten Repentia, so our next purchases stand to be more of them, six Mortifiers, or some combo of both.
Thoughts?
Mortifiers. I think 10 Repentia is enough going foward now.
Therion wrote: Looks like Exorcist was nerfed to T7. At least Exorcist and Triumph stats (attacks down to 10) are leaked on Reddit (the box datasheet scans).
For the Triumph, those missing 4 attacks are probably just the way the full data sheet handles the Marty's Sword.
And not only was the Exorcist dropped to T7, but it also lost a wound and is down -1 Str (lol). The Exorcist launcher also lost some AP, going from -3 to -2. Conflagration rockets are +1 damage now, though.
Given all these changes and more, the thread seems pretty hopeful that this new statline portends that it will shift in roles to artillery and be able to shoot out of LoS. At 195 points and the Castigator set to fill the MBT role, I will dare hope.
So the Exorcist is getting nerfed statwise. That's not so bad. If it becomes an artillery tank able to fire indirectly that will be good against the current pesky Drukhari and future armies with lots of T3, crap save models.
Being able to fire at Raiders and Venoms no matter how well hidden they are could mean a big scary unit is hoofing it on Turn 1 potentially if Sisters get first turn.
I hope either the Castigators and/or the Exorcists can be taken in a squadron like IG. Sisters are kind of spoiled in HS right now even though MM Sisters are the FOTM unit right now in Heavy.
Either way I'm getting the new tank. The more I see it the more it's growing on me looks wise.
I find the indirect rules very annoying to play against so mixed feelings about this.
I wonder if the range will stay the same.
I liked it as a heavy tank - although will be getting at least on Castigator as well - said I would get all SoB models and have done so far - alos I like the model!
jivardi wrote: So the Exorcist is getting nerfed statwise. That's not so bad. If it becomes an artillery tank able to fire indirectly that will be good against the current pesky Drukhari and future armies with lots of T3, crap save models.
Rather unfortunate that the sisters tank hunter has lost all that armour penetration. The downside of getting new units I guess, got to make the castigator look good.
jivardi wrote: So the Exorcist is getting nerfed statwise. That's not so bad. If it becomes an artillery tank able to fire indirectly that will be good against the current pesky Drukhari and future armies with lots of T3, crap save models.
Rather unfortunate that the sisters tank hunter has lost all that armour penetration. The downside of getting new units I guess, got to make the castigator look good.
Yeah, I'm not very thrilled about this change. I already thought AP-3 was sometimes a bit meh, but AP-2 is really insufficient for anti-tank. I don't fancy the new tank at all and want my organs on the battlefield. Hopefully they'll get some points reductions to compensate for the nerfed profiles. That'd allow me to take (multi) meltas to get some high AP weaponry as well in a 2000 points army.
With the changes to MM's the most competitive lists contain, it seems, 2x5 Ret's with MM's. Hardly seeing any Exorcist spam lists anymore in 9th.
And it's not as if GW is shoehorned into T7 Exorcist. FAQ's/Errata's exist for a reason folks. At one point the Keeper of Secrets had 12 wounds. One day it had 16 without need of a new codex.
Guess we'll know more when more is leaked or when Sister's 9th codex drops.
jivardi wrote: With the changes to MM's the most competitive lists contain, it seems, 2x5 Ret's with MM's. Hardly seeing any Exorcist spam lists anymore in 9th.
And it's not as if GW is shoehorned into T7 Exorcist. FAQ's/Errata's exist for a reason folks. At one point the Keeper of Secrets had 12 wounds. One day it had 16 without need of a new codex.
Guess we'll know more when more is leaked or when Sister's 9th codex drops.
Yea right. GW first drops T to 7 and then just faq's it back? Nope.
KoS got 16 wounds because it got new model and for GW bigger=more wounds. Expecting new exorcist model any time soon after codex release?
jivardi wrote: With the changes to MM's the most competitive lists contain, it seems, 2x5 Ret's with MM's. Hardly seeing any Exorcist spam lists anymore in 9th.
And it's not as if GW is shoehorned into T7 Exorcist. FAQ's/Errata's exist for a reason folks. At one point the Keeper of Secrets had 12 wounds. One day it had 16 without need of a new codex.
Guess we'll know more when more is leaked or when Sister's 9th codex drops.
Yea right. GW first drops T to 7 and then just faq's it back? Nope.
KoS got 16 wounds because it got new model and for GW bigger=more wounds. Expecting new exorcist model any time soon after codex release?
Snark and rudeness aside, I agree. It is not likely that they would fix the imperial chassis outlier just to FAQ it in again.
At T7 with 11W, and likely losing aura access, this tank at 195 will continue to be rare...but add indirect fire and it starts to look like an option for utility in a saturated HS slot.
Unfortunately we can't really talk tactics if it relies on wild speculation, so I suppose there's not much more that can be said.
dracpanzer wrote: Haven't been running Exo's since the new MM rules hit the Immo. Conflag is now 3d6 2D or is that extra damage for the AT variant?
The pictures don't line up with the relevant weapon profile, but that doesn't mean much given how incorrect these data sheets have been by and large. The extra point of damage is to the Conflag, whereas the AT variant lost a point of AP.
Hello, I didn't play 9th ed since september, before the update of imperial weaponry and the recent big faq.
I will play this sunday for the first time since then against drukhari (2000pts).
Following some reads on the new codex, I understand that dark eldars have now a vicious way to deal heavy MW with hellions, have low toughness vehicules that have a ++ save, have a lot of inv++ and even FNP+++ on most of their units.
So, my guess is to play a list revolving around a high number of hits, both shots and close combat. I was thinking of maybe taking an ebon chalice detachment to avoid being wiped by MW. I don't know if it is worth to take Valorous Heart order detachment : do the dark eldars have a lot of AP-1/AP-2 attacks?
The thing I am quite sure that should be good picks :
- Mortifiers with heavy bolters and flails
- Three exorcists, two with rockets and one with S8 AP-3 rockets
- Retributors : one squad with heavy flamers embarking in a twin heavy flamers immolator + one squad with heavy bolters
- Ephrael Stern and her filthy xenos that has a lot of attacks
- Maybe an inquisitor?? but wich one?
- Storm bolters everywhere, everytime I can
The things that I am pretty sure I shouldn't bring : - Multi-melta retributors, I don't how their high AP and Damage output could be usefull against such weak vehicules that have invu save moreover!
- I am verry reluctant to play saint Celestine if they can deal her MW and the fact that germinae and celestine rest on high AP blades that aren't revelent against dark eldars that either have low regular saves or ++ saves.
- Zephyrim, for the same reason than Celestine's ones
The things that I don't know what to think about : - Repentias. I have never ever played them. Sure, they can deal a big number of attacks but aren't they overpowered in terms of strength against those low toughness xenos?
- Triumph of saint Katherine, same as above, I don't know how to play it well so never played it.
- I would have love to bring some arco-flagellants but unfortunately, it's the only thing I don't own in the whole army...
- If I take an OOML detachment, I think it could be sweet to take judith and her twin flamers.
- Dominions with flamers or storm bolters?
- Finaly, I don't know what equipment to pick for my canonesses. Frankly, I feel that it might be a waste to equip them with fancy blades or such things.
Thanks for reading. If you have any advices, guesses or thoughts, I would be glad to hear it.
Splinter Cannons are AP1. Probably at least 1 or 2 more weapons that are at least AP1.
Wyches and Incubi don't care about VH's AP negation.
Cult of Strife is just mean. Lots of good strats.
Mortifiers will do more against Drukhari than MM Retributors will.
I'd tool the Cannoness up for support. She's going to get absolutely owned in melee against a Succubus or Djinn-bladed Archon. Drazar is the hot FOTM character and he will delete a Cannoness even worst than a Succubus will.
Without knowing what exactly is in the Drukhari list it's hard to know what's good and what's not. It's going to be a hard fight regardless of what your opponent brings. The Drukhari has really good internal balance and so as of right now everything in the codex can be made to work.
You won't win the speed game. Take Secondaries that don't involve getting too close. Bring It Down is good (Raider/Venom spam is the best way to play Drukhari); Engage On All Fronts is an easy one to get so long as you have some mobility (rhino's, immo's, mortifiers, seraphim); Raise The Banners is also an easy one.
Like every army, the Drukhari are an army with lots of variability available to them. Depending upon what your opponent brings, many of the things you mentioned about them may or may not be true. To clear up a few things:
Assuming a pure Drukhari Army, the whole army will have a 6++ which will become 5++ in Turn 4 (3 for Cabal of the Black Heart units)
Only Coven units have FNP. These are also the toughest units in the codex.
Their vehicles are light in defense stats, but also have invulnerable saves. The high damage of a Melta-weapon combined with Faith will help bring them down since there are still wounds to get through.
They have a wide variety of AP from 0 to -4 throughout the army on both ranged and close combat weapons
The Hellion/Reaver Stratagem gives 1 MW on a 5+ (4+ vs Infantry) per model in the attacking unit
With this all said, I suggest you worry less about everything an unknown army can do depending upon which units they decide to bring and concentrate on bringing a coherent army to fight with. Get them to fight your battle, rather than try and anticipate theirs.
Just got a fairly casual game in with my Sisters vs. my buddy's Ad Mech. 2000 points and we played the Scorched Earth mission from the BRB.
My list:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Valorous Heart
Agent of the Imperium: Ordo Malleus Inquisitor: Power Sword, Bolt Pistol, Psyker, Arbiter of the Emperor's Will (Trait: Psychic Mastery, Relic: Blade of the Ordo), Powers: Dominate, Warding Incantation
Canoness: Power Sword, Plasma Pistol, Rod of Office
Preacher
Celestine: Warlord (Beacon of Faith)
10-girl Battle Sister Squad: 2x Meltagun, Combimelta/Chainsword on Superior, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
7-girl Battle Sister Squad: 2x Flamer, Combi-flamer/Chainsword on Superior
5-girl Battle Sister Squad: Heavy Bolter, Chainsword on Superior
Imagifier: Tale of the Stoic, Heroine in the Making (Indomitable Belief), Relic: Book of St. Lucius
Dialogus
9-girl Repentia Squad
10-girl Celestian Squad: 2x Meltagun, Combimelta/Power Maul on Superior, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
5-girl Dominion Squad: 4x Storm Bolter
5-girl Seraphim Squad: Plasma Pistol/Power Sword on Superior
5-girl Retributor Squad: 4x Multimelta, 2x Armorium Cherub
Exorcist: Exorcist Missile Launcher
2x Mortifiers: Anchorite, Heavy Bolters, Penitent Flails
Sororitas Rhino
Sororitas Rhino
No Force Org:
9-man Arco-Flagellants: Endurant
2-girl Death Cult Assassins
His list:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Custom Forge World (can't remember exactly which ones he took, except that one gave Arc weapons an extra hit on a 5+ hit roll)
Tech-Priest Dominus
Tech-Priest Dominus
3-model Kataphron Breachers: Arc Rifles
3-model Kataphron Breachers: Arc Rifles
3-model Kataphron Breachers: Arc Rifles
3-model Kataphron Destroyers: Heavy Grav Cannons, Cognis Flamers
3-model Kataphron Destroyers: Heavy Grav Cannons, Cognis Flamers
4-model Kastelan Robots: Fists, whatever the heavy flamer thing is called
Cybernetica Datasmith
Super-Heavy Detachment: House Taranis
Knight Errant: Stormspear Rocket Pod, Warlord (Ion Bulwark)
Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun
Armiger Warglaive: Meltagun
For secondaries, I picked Engage on All Fronts, Deploy Scramblers, and the mission secondary (Raze). He picked Assassinate, Raze, and I can't remember his third one. I got first turn, and put the Death Cult Assassins and Seraphim in reserves. I chose the Divine Guidance Sacred Rite.
On turn 1, I rolled my start-of-round Miracle Die and the extra one from Beacon of Faith and they both came up 6's. I fired the Retributors and Exorcist at the Knight, bringing it down to 3 wounds but failing to finish it. My other shooting killed one Breacher and wounded another, but most of my stuff was either out of range or out of LOS. I forgot to deploy a scrambler on this turn . My opponent's shooting killed 4 of the 5 Dominions and brought one of the Rhinos down to 1 wound and the other down to 7 wounds (lucky Valorous Heart FNP saves plus a Miracle Dice). The Exorcist was reduced to 6 wounds as well. On turn 2, the Repentia disembarked from the critically wounded Rhino, along with the Missionary. The Inquisitor and Arco-Flagellants got out of the other one. I brought in the Death Cult Assassins on one side in the middle of the board and had them deploy a scrambler. The Inquisitor failed to cast Warding Incantation on the Arcos, and then rolled double 6's on Smite, taking 2 wounds from Perils and only managing a 2 for wounds inflicted on the Kastelans. My shooting finished off the big Knight and one of the Armigers, and reduced the other Armiger to 4 wounds and killed another Breacher. I then charged into the Kastelans with the Arcos (who ate some nasty flamer overwatch) and the Repentia, but only managed to kill one Robot and reduce another to 2 wounds. The robots swung back at the Repentia and killed four (bad hit rolls and some lucky saves on my part saved them all from dying). On my opponent's turn, he finished off the Repentia, killed all but one of the Retributors, took the last wound off of the one Rhino and charged his wounded Armiger into my Celestians who had already been reduced to four models from shooting (I decided not to Overwatch as I was low on CP). He failed to kill any of them and the Armiger went down in melee over the course of two fight phases. On turn 3 I killed a bunch of Kataphrons, finished the aforementioned Armiger, and saw the rest of my Arcos die to the Robots. I also nearly killed a Tech-Priest with the DCA, but they died to him in melee. My Seraphim had dropped down and planted their scrambler in my opponent's deployment zone in my movement phase. My opponent killed the Missionary, the rest of the Celestians, and brought the Exorcist down to 1 wound (Valorous Heart saves FTW!). At this point I was well ahead on secondary points, and turn 4 was mostly mopping up for me. We called the game after the top of turn 4, as my opponent was well behind and had only one squad of Breachers, a Dominus (who was in combat with Celestine), one Robot, and the Datasmith left.
My takeaways from the game:
-Exorcists are underrated, especially as Valorous Heart. They are more durable than some other tanks (although that is about to change sadly ), and they have great firepower.
-Overall, Bloody Rose is a better all-around Order than Valorous Heart. Having even your basic mooks be decently nasty in close combat is very nice.
-Seraphim are probably a waste of time without taking any of their special pistols. We have cheaper units for the "action slaves" role, and Zephyrim are far better in melee.
-Repentia are very bad in any order that isn't Bloody Rose. They really want access to Tear Them Down, and if they get the extra attack on the charge from being Bloody Rose, they don't need a priest to babysit them.
-Arco-Flagellants are very good at taking out a specific target type (hordes of gribblies like Ork Boyz, Termagants, etc.) and not very good vs. anything else.
-An Inquisitor may be a decent inclusion in a Sisters list, but further testing is required as I failed like 4 of the 6 psychic powers I attempted to cast.
-Celestians are great with their stratagem, especially near a Canoness.
-The Dialogus is a cool model, but probably never worth taking.
Thanks for your advices, it's precious for me. I am currently building my list and want to add an ordo xenos inquisitor for cp farming. But I am not sure how much CP can be refunded with Esoteric Lore warlord trait during a battle round. Could someone enlight me on this please? I remember that in 8th ed, stratagem that allowed to gain CP were limited per turn or battle round.
Crimson wrote: I'm reiterating some of my questions from another thread here:
So what are people's thoughts on equipping the Superiors in general? They can have a melee weapon addition to their bolter and pistol (and as bolters are free you always want one.) All of these can also be traded for better weapons. A Power Maul actually seems pretty damn solid with the Bloody Rose rules. This is nice, though also means there is no reason to ever take a power sword, which seems a bit of a shame.
Also, what's the current ruling on trading items you have gained via trading? You can do that right? Because the Superior can trade their bolter for a bolt pistol and bolt pistols can be traded for better pistols. So this would allow for example dual wielding plasma pistols... Not necessarily super effective, but would look cool.
I'm always on the fence about this... I have been play sisters for over 20 years and I hate SMU sister units. That being said I feel 5 sisters are fodder and can be shot off any objective in 1 turn with minimal effort. So I like making larger units, with the move to 9th that kind of messed with the larger units the way coherence works now. My latest GT list has 6 man squads with the squads loaded out, but im putting them in Immolators also so the weaponry is there for utility if they get dumped early I can back field them on objectives and still help by sniping from the back. You have to build the unit to do something.... My forward Troop squads I equip to be able to Trinity if I have to ( that is ussally MM,MG,CF loadout) Where Back feild troops would be just a Heavy bolter or MM maybe toss in a couple stormbolters if you have some extra points laying around. I really miss being able to give my Sups Storm bolters...
ierp wrote: Thanks for your advices, it's precious for me. I am currently building my list and want to add an ordo xenos inquisitor for cp farming. But I am not sure how much CP can be refunded with Esoteric Lore warlord trait during a battle round. Could someone enlight me on this please? I remember that in 8th ed, stratagem that allowed to gain CP were limited per turn or battle round.
Is it still the case in 9th ed?
Yes. See the Battle Forged Rules on pages 244-245 of the main rulebook. There are a few exceptions, but you are limited to gaining 1 CP per battle round from rules, excluding Stratagems used during a phase (See main rulebook FAQ page 6).
MacPhail wrote: I hope that two new characters and a new battle tank suggest some real redevelopment of the army for the 9th codex and not just tacking on some new kits to sell. Am I wrong to hope for a revision of some Order Convictions, Sacred Rites, and Warlord Traits to make other combos more playable? Maybe some way to generate mortal wounds? Something to target characters?
Nope, round of nerfs to things the internet whined about and a handful of new kits that do nothing interesting for 30-50% more points than they should cost.
Then we wait until 10th to hope we get forgotten about enough to have a good book again.
Therion wrote: Looks like Exorcist was nerfed to T7. At least Exorcist and Triumph stats (attacks down to 10) are leaked on Reddit (the box datasheet scans).
For the Triumph, those missing 4 attacks are probably just the way the full data sheet handles the Marty's Sword.
And not only was the Exorcist dropped to T7, but it also lost a wound and is down -1 Str (lol). The Exorcist launcher also lost some AP, going from -3 to -2. Conflagration rockets are +1 damage now, though.
Given all these changes and more, the thread seems pretty hopeful that this new statline portends that it will shift in roles to artillery and be able to shoot out of LoS. At 195 points and the Castigator set to fill the MBT role, I will dare hope.
T7 Ap-2 for 195pts? I don't care if it can shoot into games that haven't started yet, it's a paperweight.
jivardi wrote: With the changes to MM's the most competitive lists contain, it seems, 2x5 Ret's with MM's. Hardly seeing any Exorcist spam lists anymore in 9th.
And it's not as if GW is shoehorned into T7 Exorcist. FAQ's/Errata's exist for a reason folks. At one point the Keeper of Secrets had 12 wounds. One day it had 16 without need of a new codex.
Guess we'll know more when more is leaked or when Sister's 9th codex drops.
Yea right. GW first drops T to 7 and then just faq's it back? Nope.
KoS got 16 wounds because it got new model and for GW bigger=more wounds. Expecting new exorcist model any time soon after codex release?
Snark and rudeness aside, I agree. It is not likely that they would fix the imperial chassis outlier just to FAQ it in again.
At T7 with 11W, and likely losing aura access, this tank at 195 will continue to be rare...but add indirect fire and it starts to look like an option for utility in a saturated HS slot.
Unfortunately we can't really talk tactics if it relies on wild speculation, so I suppose there's not much more that can be said.
The tank isn't really an option at 195pts now. It's not terrible but both retributors and our melee options tend to outperform it on the whole. Losing a point of AP makes it a hard sell at that price even with indirect fire compensating. Losing a point of toughness on top of that is MASSIVE. Melta suddenly wounding it on 3s means that it pop like an overful water ballon the first time anyone looks at it funny. At that point even indirect fire is mostly going to be what allows you to shoot it in games you go second. (The other missile option remains worthless).
If they do indirect fire, 145pts would be the most I'd be willing to consider and even then you could argue you'll get more mileage out of MM immo.
No indirect fire you're looking at 110-120pts.
Not going to touch that hot garbage heap of a take from the resident grognard. Think we should just wait and see before we cry about the sky falling, yeah?
GW has done a pretty good job with codeciies so far in 9th so:
1) I doubt very much the Exorcist will stay at 195 pts. More likely coming down.
2) We don't know what other special rules it might have or how the Orders are going to change which will affect, or could affect, how it works and it's survivability.
But yeah, lets jump on the "exorcist is garbage" bandwagon just from a leaked (or possibly leaked) stats on an instruction sheet.
I remember when the Necrons first got leaked and how people said the new RP was garbage. Now Necron Warriors are some of the most durable Obsec troops in the game BECAUSE of RP. But lets just go by a datasheet shall we?
In this instalment, we’re introducing a new division of the Celestians – the fighting elite of the Orders Militant – known as Celestian Sacresants. Like their Celestian sisters, Sacresants traditionally act as bodyguards to the heads of their Order, but they’re also tasked with another holy duty – purging the impure and driving them from sites of sacred significance on the battlefield.
As a Celestian, each Sacresant is a highly skilled warrior, able to overcome many times her own number in battle. Sacresants wield a variety of blessed polearms and maces with which to smite the unclean, and bear large, ornate shields to ward off the blows of their enemies. Protected in both body and spirit, Celestian Sacresants are the wall against which waves of heretics will break.
In this instalment, we’re introducing a new division of the Celestians – the fighting elite of the Orders Militant – known as Celestian Sacresants. Like their Celestian sisters, Sacresants traditionally act as bodyguards to the heads of their Order, but they’re also tasked with another holy duty – purging the impure and driving them from sites of sacred significance on the battlefield.
As a Celestian, each Sacresant is a highly skilled warrior, able to overcome many times her own number in battle. Sacresants wield a variety of blessed polearms and maces with which to smite the unclean, and bear large, ornate shields to ward off the blows of their enemies. Protected in both body and spirit, Celestian Sacresants are the wall against which waves of heretics will break.
I'll reserve judgment until I see their full stats and abilities, but I suspect that they could make Repentia redundant. Unless their weapons are D1 or something. The models are very cool though; I suspect my wallet is already cringing at all these new Sisters models getting ready to come out.
Repentia will still be useful for offensive purposes. Depending on the unit rules and how orders, especially VH, change with the new codex these are going to be more of a take and hold unit. Obviously T3 is going to make them inferior to like Blade Guard from a defensive standpoint but they are still going to be more resilient than any of the other Sisters infantry units (or maybe on par with the new war suits).
It's nice to see some defensive Sisters units. Our most defensive unit right now, not counting tanks, are Mortifiers and those have to compete with MM Rets and Exorcists.
No matter what the rules are I'm getting some of these girls. Than again I don't meta chase or min/max so I don't buy units based on how "good" they are.
Hell, I'm running Lelith in my Drukhari because I love the model. Even if she isn't on par with a Triptych Succubus.
Sluggaloo wrote: Hi, am I right in thinking that celestine and the geminae can potentially give up assassinate VP more than once each (once per resurrection). Thanks
No. Assassinate says "Score 3 victory points at the end of the battle for each enemy Character model that is destroyed." At the end of the battle, the model is either destroyed or not. It doesn't matter how many times you had to destroy the model to get it to that point, only that it is destroyed at the end of the game.
Compare this to Thin Their Ranks which has you keep a tally of models destroyed and notes that a model that are resurrected can be counted again.
Good evening fellow sisters. I have played my first game with seraphim and zephyrim yesterday : 1500 pts against imperial guards. They were both in 5 girls squad in a little Bloody Rose detachment, while my main detachment was Valorous Heart.
While I really liked the seraphims with their baby melta and deadly descent stratagem, I didn't have any fortune with the zephyrim. I throw them against 5 bullgryn that were already engaged against Celestine and here two germinae. In one turn, the Bullgryn wiped them off the table.
Do you think 5 girls for zephyrim isn't enough? Should they be played by 10?
Moreover, is it a thing to play two squad of 5 seraphym knowing you won't be abble to use Deadly Descent two times in a single turn? I like them so much and they are so reasonnably priced that I consider playing two squads. Would it be reasonnable to play a squad on turn two and the other on turn three?
Piety and Pain FAQ corrected the datasheet and points cost for the Palatine. Wargear is now matches the model: ‘A Palatine is equipped with: bolt pistol; power sword; rosarius; frag grenades; krak grenades.’ 45 Points with +5 points to take the optional Bolt Pistol to Plasma Pistol option.
ierp wrote: Good evening fellow sisters. I have played my first game with seraphim and zephyrim yesterday : 1500 pts against imperial guards. They were both in 5 girls squad in a little Bloody Rose detachment, while my main detachment was Valorous Heart.
While I really liked the seraphims with their baby melta and deadly descent stratagem, I didn't have any fortune with the zephyrim. I throw them against 5 bullgryn that were already engaged against Celestine and here two germinae. In one turn, the Bullgryn wiped them off the table.
Do you think 5 girls for zephyrim isn't enough? Should they be played by 10?
Moreover, is it a thing to play two squad of 5 seraphym knowing you won't be abble to use Deadly Descent two times in a single turn? I like them so much and they are so reasonnably priced that I consider playing two squads. Would it be reasonnable to play a squad on turn two and the other on turn three?
Have a nice week end guys!
You tossed a 5-model Zephyrim unit into Bullgryn and are surprised they bounced and died? 3W/T5/4++ is not something that unit wants to be anywhere near.
ierp wrote: Good evening fellow sisters. I have played my first game with seraphim and zephyrim yesterday : 1500 pts against imperial guards. They were both in 5 girls squad in a little Bloody Rose detachment, while my main detachment was Valorous Heart.
While I really liked the seraphims with their baby melta and deadly descent stratagem, I didn't have any fortune with the zephyrim. I throw them against 5 bullgryn that were already engaged against Celestine and here two germinae. In one turn, the Bullgryn wiped them off the table.
Do you think 5 girls for zephyrim isn't enough? Should they be played by 10?
Moreover, is it a thing to play two squad of 5 seraphym knowing you won't be abble to use Deadly Descent two times in a single turn? I like them so much and they are so reasonnably priced that I consider playing two squads. Would it be reasonnable to play a squad on turn two and the other on turn three?
Have a nice week end guys!
10 Zephs and a good target for their statline + strat
A 5 and a 10 girl squad was more normal for Seraphim at one point and still works
I don't see why one would rather play Seraphim by 10 instead of 2x5. You get more mini melta or flamers for you buck by playing two squad. Don't you think?
ierp wrote: I don't see why one would rather play Seraphim by 10 instead of 2x5. You get more mini melta or flamers for you buck by playing two squad. Don't you think?
I take two squads of 5 for deadly descent turn 2 and turn 3, they also almost guarantee I get deploy scramblers.
As for squads of 10, there are specific uses for them: Horde clearing with deadley descent and hand flamers, and being a fast moving relatively tough bodyguard/objective grabbing unit.
Do you always play them in Bloody Rose order? I usualy play Valorous Heart and I am wondering if it's worth to spend 3 CP to get a little bloody rose detachment in order to get the -1 AP on pistols (and in close for zephyrim).
I didn't thought about deploy scramblers, thanks for the idea I usualy take Rise the banner high but this idea might make me reconsider it.
ierp wrote: Do you always play them in Bloody Rose order? I usualy play Valorous Heart and I am wondering if it's worth to spend 3 CP to get a little bloody rose detachment in order to get the -1 AP on pistols (and in close for zephyrim).
I didn't thought about deploy scramblers, thanks for the idea I usualy take Rise the banner high but this idea might make me reconsider it.
With seraphim, no; the bonus isn't strong enough to be worth losing 3 CP for a BR detachment. If you want to take Repentia and Zephyrim enough to already have a BR detachment you should put your seraphim in there. Just don't take the whole detachment for just seraphim.
Sidebar: Repentia and Zephyrim are not AT ALL worth their points in anything but Bloody Rose. You're much better off taking Mortifiers or ArcoFlags if you want some melee punch in a VH list.
Thanks you for your advice. I was thinking the same thing as you said about the necessity to play Bloody Rose for Repentias and Zeph' but wasn't sure about the Seraphims. I have already bring Mortifiers to nearly all the game I played in mono Valorous Heart detachment. The only problem with them is that they are in the heavy slot that is already crowded and it's hard to fill a Brigade Detachment in sub 2000 pts games, leting us with a Bataillon and his 3 heavy slots...
I have just ordered one squad of ArcoFlagelants few weeks ago. I guess it's advised to play them with a preacher, transported in a rhino?
ierp wrote: Thanks you for your advice. I was thinking the same thing as you said about the necessity to play Bloody Rose for Repentias and Zeph' but wasn't sure about the Seraphims. I have already bring Mortifiers to nearly all the game I played in mono Valorous Heart detachment. The only problem with them is that they are in the heavy slot that is already crowded and it's hard to fill a Brigade Detachment in sub 2000 pts games, leting us with a Bataillon and his 3 heavy slots...
I have just ordered one squad of ArcoFlagelants few weeks ago. I guess it's advised to play them with a preacher, transported in a rhino?
9 Arcos with a Preacher in a Rhino is a good setup. If you can get them into something and pop Extremis Trigger Word, that's 81 attacks (84 if one Arco is an Endurant) that hit on 4+ rerollable. It'll probably wipe out a Necron Warrior blob without them getting their RP, and can do nasty things to big units of Tyranid gaunts or Ork Boyz also. I wouldn't run more than one unit of Arcos, though; take Mortifiers if you need additional melee punch in a VH list.
You're right about Heavy Support being a crowded slot for Sisters. Retributors, Exorcists, and Mortifiers are all decent and you'll run out of slots quickly. The arrival of the Castigator is just going to exacerbate the problem, although I don't see Castigators being good, or at least not any better than Exorcists. That all depends on what special rules it gets, and I really hope I'm wrong and maybe we start seeing vehicles become viable again (unlikely due to the prevalence of the "melta meta").
I am also quite shoked to see the lack of entry in our fast attack slot. I may I agree that Sisters way of fighting is not in fast attack but why the hell zephyrim are in elite slot that is also crowded because of the many characters we have... I can't imagine new warsuits and shielded infantry sisters (don't know their names) being in anything else than support and elite.
For the exorcist, bear in mind that new rules have been leaked showing a decrease in toughness from 8 to 7, in wounds from 11 to 10 and the exorcist missile launcher lose 1 AP.
ierp wrote: I am also quite shoked to see the lack of entry in our fast attack slot. I may I agree that Sisters way of fighting is not in fast attack but why the hell zephyrim are in elite slot that is also crowded because of the many characters we have... I can't imagine new warsuits and shielded infantry sisters (don't know their names) being in anything else than support and elite.
For the exorcist, bear in mind that new rules have been leaked showing a decrease in toughness from 8 to 7, in wounds from 11 to 10 and the exorcist missile launcher lose 1 AP.
I know the conversation moved a bit from the topic of seraphim squad sizes, but I wanted to add my voice to espousing the values of max sized units here. Using deadly descent on a unit that big really helps punch a hole through a screen, one where your zephyrim can land.
I'm a fan of the anti-horde use of this unit lately seeing as I have many more options for more efficient anti-tank that doesn't rely on a Stratagem to function.
alextroy wrote: Are you saying a 10-model Seraphim squad with 2 paired Hand Flamers models for horde-cleansing and hole-creating duties?
Specifically using deadly descent to maximize the impact of that stratagem. One of the key things I like to do is a one-two punch with seraphim dropping down, clearing a screen in the movement phase, and opening up a bubble for the zephyrim to get in deeper. You can then deploy scramblers or fire again.
I play as bloody rose, so I don't expect that's very useful for VH.
That's not to say the smaller units with more special weapons aren't great, they absolutely are. 2 MSU flamer units are pretty powerful at that task as well, but the key for me in the above tactic is maximizing the impact of that immediate drop in support of the zephyrim. The inferno pistol option is a decent way to basically drop in, melt something tough or important, and then become an action monkey. The options for this unit are so good lol
I normally run a single Seraphim x10 squad with 4x Hand Flamers, and use those for Deadly Descent shenanigans; typically targeting light infantry or softer characters if available. They typically make a splash. If I feel I need more melta or character threatening, I'll also bring a squadron of 5 with the inferno pistols. But I never drop them on the same turn, just to have Deadly Descent always available. It is 100% mandatory if you're coming in with Inferno Pistols; there is no way to get around that if they're deep striking.
Zephyrim... I've taken to running 2x5 squads. They normally lurk and threaten characters or soft objective campers. They should be run as Bloody Rose - Tear Them Down is that good, especially with Zephyrim (and don't forget they naturally re-roll melee wound rolls as well). I try to drop them across 2 turns as well, to always have access to Tear Them Down, as well as access to Miracle Dice to force the charge roll. Nothing worse than a melee unit sitting stranded in the open because they flubbed a charge roll.
I think the Ogryn charge mentioned earlier was a bit of a tough target for them. A squad of 5, even as Bloody Rose, is only going to throw 16 attacks? Low chance to even convert enough wounds to wipe the squad, even before considering their invulnerable that nullifies the big -3 (-4 for BR) AP Power Sword that is the true threat of the squad. Zephyrim need to pounce on armored targets to really get a good return on what they're doing. Though, taking down a stray character is a good role, too, since they can sneak enough damage through to threaten 5 wound chars with invulnerables... but you're definitely looking for the opponent to not have dice luck if that invul is 4+ or better.
Thanks for you return. It was indeed a dumb idea to throw them against the bullgryn. I felt obliged to do it in ordrer to save my Celestine who was engaged by this whole bulgryn squad.
Question - - - So im taking 4 morts and 2 archs and they all have HB and Flails... Should I take 1 in each squad and put 2 HF and 2 Buzz on it for charge deterrent or 1 HF and 1HB 1 Buzz and 1 Flail instead of 2 HB 2Flails?
Spidey0804 wrote: Question - - - So im taking 4 morts and 2 archs and they all have HB and Flails... Should I take 1 in each squad and put 2 HF and 2 Buzz on it for charge deterrent or 1 HF and 1HB 1 Buzz and 1 Flail instead of 2 HB 2Flails?
I'd say you keep them all with HB and flails. It's generally speaking the best outfit for them, and it's good to specialise on one type of target for a unit.
And an obligatory warning that we are getting a new codex somewhat soon. So this advice might have a short best-before date :-)
Yes I agree, it's hard to imagine double flails keeping their 15 attacks and with a new book due within 1-2 months I wouldn't plastic glue any arm bits just yet. HB are still going to be the go to and that won't change I don't think. In the meantime HB and flails are the best all round
Spidey0804 wrote: Question - - - So im taking 4 morts and 2 archs and they all have HB and Flails... Should I take 1 in each squad and put 2 HF and 2 Buzz on it for charge deterrent or 1 HF and 1HB 1 Buzz and 1 Flail instead of 2 HB 2Flails?
The only real reason to take buzz saws instead of flails (at least until the next book drops) is to not have to roll 45 dice per squad. As for the heavy flamer, that's not super necessary. Nothing that has a real chance of killing your Morties without getting shrecked in return is going to care about 2 heavy flamers.
Also it's aNchs, it was very confusing trying to figure out how you were taking 2 Archmages.
Spidey0804 wrote: Question - - - So im taking 4 morts and 2 archs and they all have HB and Flails... Should I take 1 in each squad and put 2 HF and 2 Buzz on it for charge deterrent or 1 HF and 1HB 1 Buzz and 1 Flail instead of 2 HB 2Flails?
The only real reason to take buzz saws instead of flails (at least until the next book drops) is to not have to roll 45 dice per squad. As for the heavy flamer, that's not super necessary. Nothing that has a real chance of killing your Morties without getting shrecked in return is going to care about 2 heavy flamers.
Also it's aNchs, it was very confusing trying to figure out how you were taking 2 Archmages.
Archmage = witch = guilty = strapped into a pain engine?
What is her weakness? she's non targetable, halves incoming damage, 4++ against invuln and MW, has melee and range for high toughness or hordes, and buffs like a champ...
deviantduck wrote: What is her weakness? she's non targetable, halves incoming damage, 4++ against invuln and MW, has melee and range for high toughness or hordes, and buffs like a champ...
deviantduck wrote: What is her weakness? she's non targetable, halves incoming damage, 4++ against invuln and MW, has melee and range for high toughness or hordes, and buffs like a champ...
She is a primarch equivalent so probably the same way you take care of G-man, 1/2 damage vs revive is about the same. though i suppose it depends if the celestians or nu celestians can bodyguard her or not
deviantduck wrote: What is her weakness? she's non targetable, halves incoming damage, 4++ against invuln and MW, has melee and range for high toughness or hordes, and buffs like a champ...
Honestly, T5. As soon as she is from LoS! any Str5+ gun with -1 or -2 ap will risk hurting her. Just number of shots. She is basically Custode character.
Punisher wrote: Does anyone know how her halving damage would work vs an odd amount of damage? For instance would a 3 damage weapon inflict 2 damage to her or only 1?
So like...her durability is pretty comparable to the Triumph (half wounds but half damage, same invuln, t5 vs -1 to hit). Her melee is comparable. Her shooting shown is fairly unimpressive but maybe the bolter will be amazing.
In terms of buffing it is hard to straight compare the two but I would probably rate her pretty similar? +1 hit in melee is pretty comparable to reroll 1s hit and wound, particularly considering the competition with the cannoness/palatine (who we will still have to take), leaving her better for range but a bit worse for melee. The chapter master is good for rets, but will invariably end up targeting fewer points than an SM one. I almost certainly would prefer the miracle dice manip from the Triumph to it.
So I think she ends up very comparable to the Triumph but has character protection. Given the Triumph shows up half and half in comp lists I'd not really be willing to pay much north of 225 and call her super competitive.
It's a weird model, in that it's basically just brute strength, nothing interesting about it like other SoB special characters are interesting. And the reroll hits and wounds, while insane in the abstract, isn't even actually all that good for retributors, because you have to use it in the command phase, and since when did anyone ever have retributors just sitting there on the table in their command phase? They're either in a rhino or reserved, and either way, you can't buff them on the turn they go in, and after the turn they do in, they're dead unless you've won the game.
Her rules seem like a bit of a symptom of what seems to be a turn away from the wild, wacky and weird and towards marines, but women. I hope it isn't indicative of the rules in the codex generally.
She isn't particularly impressive in melee. Can't remotely kill an intercessor squad, doesn't kill a wych squad or even a guard squad. Her melee is most comparable to a deathshroud termie sergeant.
Her warlord trait will matter. I could see value in walking up the board with two squads of nundams if they are good or the shield girls; if she grants the +1 invuln and those squads want that, there is legit value there. Her chapter master would be good on mortifiers. If they work well or the nundams end up similar either would be decent targets.
Can't see mortifiers being core, that would really be at odds with their lore. Wulfen aren't core and are closely equivalent in terms of their relationship to the rest of the army, so it would also be a big departure from how they've handled it in other books.
drakerocket wrote: She isn't particularly impressive in melee. Can't remotely kill an intercessor squad, doesn't kill a wych squad or even a guard squad. Her melee is most comparable to a deathshroud termie sergeant.
Her warlord trait will matter. I could see value in walking up the board with two squads of nundams if they are good or the shield girls; if she grants the +1 invuln and those squads want that, there is legit value there. Her chapter master would be good on mortifiers. If they work well or the nundams end up similar either would be decent targets.
I doubt Mortifiers will get CORE so she won't be able to buff them.
I think more the point I was going for was "if the nundams operate like mortifiers, they'd be good targets". Apologies for my being unclear.
Agree mortifiers probably won't snag core, though one never knows. Core has been all over the place. Sure wolfen don't have core, but Talos do. And talos have core but bloat drones don't. Inceptors have core but destroyers don't. They've been pretty inconsistent with what gets core tbh.
Mostly though, I hope that she is either cheap or there is a lot more to her. Character blocking makes her defense profile not too big a deal against guns and it isn't enough to keep her alive through a real melee unit; vanguard vets would eat her, as would DW termies, wyches..heck I think a unit of 10 zephyrm almost do it with a bit of strat support. And she can't kill any of those units in response.
deviantduck wrote: What is her weakness? she's non targetable, halves incoming damage, 4++ against invuln and MW, has melee and range for high toughness or hordes, and buffs like a champ...
Not having any weaknesses is actually her biggest weakness. Because of how loaded for bare she is, she'll be very expensive. Likely in the 200-280pts range. That means she'll have to be able to be a melee beatstick(Beni Canoness 65pts) a force multiplier (ROO Canoness 65pts) and also match a full unit of repentia (144) to work in that price range.
Most sisters units are extremely good because they don't waste points on stats that don't matter (repentia, retributors, Canonesses) so they can be masters of 1. A jack of all trades has to be able to do EVERYTHING or she'll end up doing nothing.
This gets doubly hard if she doesn't benefit from ORDER abilities/stratagems.
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drakerocket wrote: She isn't particularly impressive in melee. Can't remotely kill an intercessor squad, doesn't kill a wych squad or even a guard squad. Her melee is most comparable to a deathshroud termie sergeant.
Her warlord trait will matter. I could see value in walking up the board with two squads of nundams if they are good or the shield girls; if she grants the +1 invuln and those squads want that, there is legit value there. Her chapter master would be good on mortifiers. If they work well or the nundams end up similar either would be decent targets.
Techinically with the passion and her own ability (which does work on characters) she does kill a guard squad on average dice. If she's also allowed to benefit from Bloody Rose she takes out an intercessor squad on average as well.
It's very unlikely she gets bloody rose. And 'kills guard squad' is a painfully low barrier for a 200 point melee unit, same with 'kill an intercessor squad'. The standard bloody rose cannoness does it and she's 65 (albeit with a relic and WLT).
I like the model, I like the concept. Honestly, I'd actually root pretty hard for her to not have much more than shown and clock in closer to like 175. Much more usable if she does.
Ordana wrote: Viewing her as a beatstick feels like a mistake. She is primarily a force multiplier that is also able to take a beating and dish it back out.
You can throw her in to combat to help deal with a situation, rather then see her as a tool that cleans up any problem on her own.
This right here.
She's basically the Sisters equivalent of a Chapter Master. You take her for her buffs, and her durability just means that she will continue to provide said buffs for longer before she dies. Her combat capability is a tertiary concern, although having basically a Typhoon Missile Launcher with character protection is not a bad thing at all.
I predict that she'll be seen in a lot of lists but not all of them, kind of like how you see The Silent King in a lot of Necron lists and Ghazzy in a lot of Ork lists. Unless her points cost is ludicrously high.
)
. My opponent's shooting killed 4 of the 5 Dominions and brought one of the Rhinos down to 1 wound and the other down to 7 wounds (lucky Valorous Heart 
), and they have great firepower.
