ERJAK wrote: So did anyone else notice that deploy scramblers is an almost guaranteed, essentially 0 cost 10 points for any SoB list with 2 units of seraphim?
DISCLAIMER: I HAVEN'T 100% EVERY PERMUTATION OF EVERY RULING FOR THIS INTERACTION SO THERE MIGHT BE SOME RULE THAT STOPS THIS BUT!!!:
Turn 1, use one waste unit in your deployment zone to score your board edge
Turn 2, bring down the seraphim, deadly descent to fry up a nice juicy target, use action to get either midboard or opponent's deployement. (both happen at the end of the movement phase and you get to decide the order.
Turn 3, bring down second unit of seraphim wherever the first unit couldn't go (either middle or opponent's board edge), deadly descent, use action.
Nearly guaranteed 10pts on turn 3 and all you sacrifice is a handful of bolter shots. Even if your opponent actively works to deny you the landing zones, you'll still likely have 12" move infantry models very near where they can jump to do the action next turn. And if all else fails you can get the objective the old fashion way; sneaking a random battle sister into their backlines.
So if you go up against say, a custodes list that doesn't give great secondary options, you can just take this. They don't have enough bodies to deny the midboard, their entire deployment zone, AND contest objectives. You'll always have a place to drop the seraphim and score.
The only fly in the ointment is things like Auspex scan, which Seraphim had to watch out for anyway.
I think it’s a great secondary, and like you said, nearly guaranteed. Against Guard it will be a little difficult as they can deny most of their zone.
The ONLY caveat I’ve had with this secondary is that you’re limited to 10 points. But when I’ve taken it ive always gotten my 10 points, and always used Seraphim.
The way I look at it, the Seraphim are still getting their shooting / productivity in the movement phase, they typically go into the opponent’s zone or between deployment zones, so might as well get the “easy” points.
It can also work well with Raise Banners.
ERJAK wrote: So did anyone else notice that deploy scramblers is an almost guaranteed, essentially 0 cost 10 points for any SoB list with 2 units of seraphim?
DISCLAIMER: I HAVEN'T 100% EVERY PERMUTATION OF EVERY RULING FOR THIS INTERACTION SO THERE MIGHT BE SOME RULE THAT STOPS THIS BUT!!!:
Turn 1, use one waste unit in your deployment zone to score your board edge
Turn 2, bring down the seraphim, deadly descent to fry up a nice juicy target, use action to get either midboard or opponent's deployement. (both happen at the end of the movement phase and you get to decide the order.
Turn 3, bring down second unit of seraphim wherever the first unit couldn't go (either middle or opponent's board edge), deadly descent, use action.
Nearly guaranteed 10pts on turn 3 and all you sacrifice is a handful of bolter shots. Even if your opponent actively works to deny you the landing zones, you'll still likely have 12" move infantry models very near where they can jump to do the action next turn. And if all else fails you can get the objective the old fashion way; sneaking a random battle sister into their backlines.
So if you go up against say, a custodes list that doesn't give great secondary options, you can just take this. They don't have enough bodies to deny the midboard, their entire deployment zone, AND contest objectives. You'll always have a place to drop the seraphim and score.
The only fly in the ointment is things like Auspex scan, which Seraphim had to watch out for anyway.
I think it’s a great secondary, and like you said, nearly guaranteed. Against Guard it will be a little difficult as they can deny most of their zone.
The ONLY caveat I’ve had with this secondary is that you’re limited to 10 points. But when I’ve taken it ive always gotten my 10 points, and always used Seraphim.
The way I look at it, the Seraphim are still getting their shooting / productivity in the movement phase, they typically go into the opponent’s zone or between deployment zones, so might as well get the “easy” points.
It can also work well with Raise Banners.
Can't take RtBH with it as they are both SHADOW OPERATIONS.
I think its a strong 10 points against armies that are hard to take secondary objs against. I'd rather have some points to support the primary than a goose egg, and since it is entirely in our hands on how to get that to function by the end of of our movement, I think works quite well with our mobility on the jump jets. But I don't think its a "take all" situation. I personally use 2 Seraphim and a Zeph squad, so I like the flexibility it gives me in planning against an army like Custodes. But i doubt I'm taking that for Tau as i need that bolter fire to start moving as many backfield shield drones as I can, or the hordes of board presence on imperial guard make it hard to shift into their territory. Its a good gimmick for us, but not a defacto against all comers. We should likely figure out which kind of armies it works well on to get a decent 10 off of and how to support the other 2 secondaries take with it when we want it.
I think RtBH can be a bit easier to get the 10 points with the capacity to get the full 15 off 3 primaries in the 6 objective matches, but likely Scramblers is better in the 4 or 5. To much happening mid board that controlling it to plant, and turns of keeping it under control, likely doesn't net anything better than what the scramblers can do while harder to accomplish.
FAQs just released on Core Rules and GT. Battle sanctum took a huge hit:
FORTIFICATIONS
Units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role are terrain features
that are part of your army. Unless otherwise stated, when
setting Fortifications up on the battlefield, they cannot be set up
within 3" of any other terrain feature that is not part of its own
datasheet (excluding hills, page 260). If it is not possible to set up
a Fortification as a result, it cannot be deployed and counts as
having been destroyed. Fortifications can never be placed into
Strategic Reserves (pg 256).
With the size of that model, and the amount of terrain on the table, that likely means it can't be placed or we have to be very careful when placing terrain. Bit of a bummer
all for 12" heavy flamers. if power swords become +1s then axes would have to be +2s and hammers/maces/mauls +3s, shame they took away our power axes outside of legends.
also did they swap the damage of the chainfist and power first? coulda swore chain fist was flat 2 and power fist was Dd3?
all for 12" heavy flamers. if power swords become +1s then axes would have to be +2s and hammers/maces/mauls +3s, shame they took away our power axes outside of legends.
also did they swap the damage of the chainfist and power first? coulda swore chain fist was flat 2 and power fist was Dd3?
Powerfist are currently x2, -3, d3, chainfist is x2, -4, 2. So yes, looks like the damage characteristic is being flipped. one more ap for a bit more random damage at the 10 pt range.
If PSs do go to +1S, -3, D1, BR Zeph stand a good reason for their point increases. With W reroll, an MSU version of them go from averaging 5.93 Ws to Astartes to 7.995, a 34% increase in efficiency, and that is without taking into account Passion or strats. That also puts them at a decent chance to suffer moral casualties and minimal response. I think Sisters do well with this buff vs other armies.
The question is if it is something more akin to the Astartes Chainsword, and is only Astartes Terminator level powerswords. The amount of specialization that way with melee weapons has gone down a rabbit hole as of late with SMs. They are a bit more consistent on the ranged being cross faction updates.
Dragonbeef4Life wrote: If PSs do go to +1S, -3, D1, BR Zeph stand a good reason for their point increases. With W reroll, an MSU version of them go from averaging 5.93 Ws to Astartes to 7.995, a 34% increase in efficiency, and that is without taking into account Passion or strats. That also puts them at a decent chance to suffer moral casualties and minimal response. I think Sisters do well with this buff vs other armies.
The question is if it is something more akin to the Astartes Chainsword, and is only Astartes Terminator level powerswords. The amount of specialization that way with melee weapons has gone down a rabbit hole as of late with SMs. They are a bit more consistent on the ranged being cross faction updates.
I do hope they roll it out across everyone, there are alot of units with S3 power swords that just dont work becuase they are strength 3 and low attacks (banshees for example), crusaders could see some use at S4, though the 6 unit cap is still a limiting factor. i assume death cults would be untouched they are already S4 and use special power blades.
Good point on the Zeph.
on an allies front a S5 eversor assassin could be fun to toss in every now and then, though not like we have much trouble dealing with hordes.
Hopefully it gets rolled out to "Master crafted" versions of power swords like you see on certain inquisitor special characters. Celestines yandere lover wouldn't turn down +1 strength in melee
Dragonbeef4Life wrote: If PSs do go to +1S, -3, D1, BR Zeph stand a good reason for their point increases. With W reroll, an MSU version of them go from averaging 5.93 Ws to Astartes to 7.995, a 34% increase in efficiency, and that is without taking into account Passion or strats. That also puts them at a decent chance to suffer moral casualties and minimal response. I think Sisters do well with this buff vs other armies.
The question is if it is something more akin to the Astartes Chainsword, and is only Astartes Terminator level powerswords. The amount of specialization that way with melee weapons has gone down a rabbit hole as of late with SMs. They are a bit more consistent on the ranged being cross faction updates.
Zep got normal price hike. 9th ed all got and zep didn't get all that huge.
So if in next codex their ps is this expect further price hike
Dragonbeef4Life wrote: If PSs do go to +1S, -3, D1, BR Zeph stand a good reason for their point increases. With W reroll, an MSU version of them go from averaging 5.93 Ws to Astartes to 7.995, a 34% increase in efficiency, and that is without taking into account Passion or strats. That also puts them at a decent chance to suffer moral casualties and minimal response. I think Sisters do well with this buff vs other armies.
The question is if it is something more akin to the Astartes Chainsword, and is only Astartes Terminator level powerswords. The amount of specialization that way with melee weapons has gone down a rabbit hole as of late with SMs. They are a bit more consistent on the ranged being cross faction updates.
Zep got normal price hike. 9th ed all got and zep didn't get all that huge.
So if in next codex their ps is this expect further price hike
I don't disagree, but 20 pts for their current output is a bit rough on the edges for a T3 model. Yes, they have a 5++ with their alternate abilities, but i think 100 pts for a squad is a good place for them.
They'd be hard pressed that if PS get buffed that they'd increase the prices past 5 pts. Master-crafted is 10, but its also D2.
Dragonbeef4Life wrote: If PSs do go to +1S, -3, D1, BR Zeph stand a good reason for their point increases. With W reroll, an MSU version of them go from averaging 5.93 Ws to Astartes to 7.995, a 34% increase in efficiency, and that is without taking into account Passion or strats. That also puts them at a decent chance to suffer moral casualties and minimal response. I think Sisters do well with this buff vs other armies.
The question is if it is something more akin to the Astartes Chainsword, and is only Astartes Terminator level powerswords. The amount of specialization that way with melee weapons has gone down a rabbit hole as of late with SMs. They are a bit more consistent on the ranged being cross faction updates.
Zep got normal price hike. 9th ed all got and zep didn't get all that huge.
So if in next codex their ps is this expect further price hike
And they were fundamentally worthless for everyone except BR. At least with Str 4 they would have a chance of being borderline viable, even in just friendly matches, for every other Order.
Dragonbeef4Life wrote: FAQs just released on Core Rules and GT. Battle sanctum took a huge hit:
With the size of that model, and the amount of terrain on the table, that likely means it can't be placed or we have to be very careful when placing terrain. Bit of a bummer
It's literally impossible to place if you follow the guidelines.
The guidelines state there should be one piece of terrain per 12 x 12 inch area.
The Battle Sanctum is about 8x8 inches large and if you add 3 inches of margin on each side what you get is 14x14. If it's possible for you to place that Sanctum on the board, it means the board has too little terrain.
Dragonbeef4Life wrote: FAQs just released on Core Rules and GT. Battle sanctum took a huge hit:
With the size of that model, and the amount of terrain on the table, that likely means it can't be placed or we have to be very careful when placing terrain. Bit of a bummer
It's literally impossible to place if you follow the guidelines.
The guidelines state there should be one piece of terrain per 12 x 12 inch area.
The Battle Sanctum is about 8x8 inches large and if you add 3 inches of margin on each side what you get is 14x14. If it's possible for you to place that Sanctum on the board, it means the board has too little terrain.
the 12x12 is the calc for the amount, not that you have to have a piece of terrain in every 12x12 space. IE, on a strike force 44x60 board, you have between 15 and 18 pieces of terrain depending on how you calculate the table space. that doesn't mean you can't place well enough to create a gap if you know the board side you want to try and place. However, in a comp environment with preset terrain, def much more challenging since each table Q will be ~4 pieces that if close can create a challenge.
I'm going to get my first games of 9th tomorrow! We're going to try for two 500-point games of "Combat Patrol: Incisive Attack" which I know isn't very fancy... we're just hoping to get two games in and master the turn sequence and scoring before going bigger.
My opponent will either bring Guard, Ultrasmurfs, or Alaitoc Eldar... not sure which. I'll bring the following Valorous Heart Patrol:
I mainly want to test the push forward onto a midboard objective with the Rhino, the BSS meltas, and the Dominion strombolters. The last infantry squad comes up with the HQs to support the forward element and the Penitent runs around causing havoc.
I've got 16 points left... plasma pistols, combi weapons, or an extra body? I'll take a few pics and post a write-up at some point...
So the FAQ for the Sanctum says:
"‘After this model is set up, it becomes an Area Terrain feature
with the following terrain traits: Breachable; Heavy Cover; Light
Cover; Scalable (see the Warhammer 40,000 Core Book).’"
The rules for Area terrain says:
"Each time an Area Terrain feature is set up
on the battlefield, both players must agree upon the
footprint of that terrain feature — that is, the boundary
of the terrain feature at ground level. "
Put together. Does that not mean we can define the Sanctum to be however small we need it to be to fit into our deployment?
Uh no not really. It is dependant on model itself. Sometimes area terrain just doesn't have clear footprint(you have say 4 corners of a ruin but they aren't in base) so you need to agree how you sort it out. But as a base rule it's still same model so you can't bring in smaller piece or it's MFA which is not going to fly with people..
tneva82 wrote: Uh no not really. It is dependant on model itself. Sometimes area terrain just doesn't have clear footprint(you have say 4 corners of a ruin but they aren't in base) so you need to agree how you sort it out. But as a base rule it's still same model so you can't bring in smaller piece or it's MFA which is not going to fly with people..
My Sanctum is still being made and painted for me but it doesn't have a defined footprint does it? So more flexible than say a Bastion?
Fast Attack
Inceptor Squad (x3) w/ Plasma Exerminators
Heavy Support
Eradicators (x3)
It was an interesting game. I played one Repentia Rhino poorly and they got popped without contributing anything. The game ended almost with me getting tabled, but winning via control points. One thing I did notice was that I just burned through command points like they were going out of style. I may end up going to 2k with just battalion of Bloody Rose over the VH/BR I was thinking of initially.
I found avoiding the Ultramarine/SM 3 overwatch strat kinda hard? Just sorta threw Celestine at the aggressors to take it hope to make the 2+ or engage them. Unfortunately flubbed that roll, but Repentia got into the main blob of things and chopped up the aggressors and eradicators who were clumping hard around the ancient and working to try and melt my Exorcist (I got first turn and killed an eradicator early which saved the pipe organ in the long run). I'm not sure if there was a better way of doing it tbh.
Yeah, that overwatch strat with 3 units for the price of 2 CP is rough if they deathstar it around either Calgar or Big G. Esp when they pop Transhuman once you actually get INTO it if you survive. The main benefit is that its still 6s to hit for the 3 units, of which CANNOT be the unit you're charging. So if you pick like the Aggressors in the bubble, he has to use the Overwatch strat itself to use them, or use the other guys around it which aren't near as dangerous needing 6s to hit. You have to pick your target wisely on that charge against UMs.
The sanctum is just going to be in a rough bit until its clarified. The foot print on the walls are preset. The statue is up for where it goes as the only flexible piece to add (which is still odd to me not having preset definitions on where that goes to the structure). you can potentially C it around a ruin if you retain 3". Otherwise, we'll likely find that it can't be played now usually without another errata. Which for $100 model at 55 pts has about every SOB player i know, myself included, a bit up in arms for gakky word choice on the FORTIFICATIONS language.
Oh, that's an important clarification. That's something we definitely missed in the game. I feel less bad about my decision to just charge Celestine in to trigger it.
Also, I definitely agree on just choosing the passion as a sacred rite rather than rolling. I think I may just go bloody rose and just use that now.
So with the potential change to strength on power weapons shown in the new marine instruction book, which hopefully will get rolled out to the rest of the factions at some point, is that going to have any bearing on what weapons to take on our sisters.
P-Swords at +1, P-Axes at +2, and assuming P-Mauls at +3 (not shown yet). i know we cant take axes unless you use legends but some people arent dicks about it.
for me personally S6 power mauls seems appealing as i play against 2 different deathguard armies, however i liked the visuals more of my sisters of power axes (not usable too often, depending on the player), and power swords i dont think would see much use outside of the buff it gives to the zephyrim.
we always had access to s4 power weapons in the form of death cults if we really wanted to take them, and Crusaders still dont seem worth their points even with s4 power swords.
I mostly put chainswords on my superiors, but on the celestian superiors worth considering.
though something i forgot about completely when i was writing the previous post is the +1 strength aura. so we can hit s5 swords, s6 axes, s7 mauls. interesting breakpoints to hit.
tneva82 wrote: Uh no not really. It is dependant on model itself. Sometimes area terrain just doesn't have clear footprint(you have say 4 corners of a ruin but they aren't in base) so you need to agree how you sort it out. But as a base rule it's still same model so you can't bring in smaller piece or it's MFA which is not going to fly with people..
My Sanctum is still being made and painted for me but it doesn't have a defined footprint does it? So more flexible than say a Bastion?
Well yes but not enough notably shrink footprint. Theres some t-shaped though part of it would be taken by statue but it's stllj essentially 11"x11" area clear of terrain.
Very inconvenient. Same rule works in aos as faction terrains are smaller and boards less dense
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Sgt.Sunshine wrote: Oh, that's an important clarification. That's something we definitely missed in the game. I feel less bad about my decision to just charge Celestine in to trigger it.
Also, I definitely agree on just choosing the passion as a sacred rite rather than rolling. I think I may just go bloody rose and just use that now.
Keep in mind though you dont have to lock yourself to it. It's done after deployment so unlike traits and relics is not locked. 2 abilities has it's advantages
So I got one Combat Patrol in tonight. It was tied every turn through turn 4, but my opponent wore down my numbers, got my Warlord in turn 5, and won 59-50 with Assassinate and Slay the Warlord. I had taken all objective based secondaries and never got more than two objectives.
He played Astra Militarum with Creed, Kell, three infantry squads, a big unit of Ratlings, and a Russ. My VH Conviction was of no impact, and I kept forgetting my Sacred Rites. I failed a critical charge with a Penitent Engine that should have mopped up a guard squad and given me the third objective I needed. I might have screened my Canoness better to deny him his points, but by the end of turn 5 I had only a Rhino, Imagifier, and a single Superior who had gone six Fight phases in melee with another infantry squad whose Sergeant also endured that whole combat. In the end my inability to shift even a single one of his squads from an objective opened his road to victory.
It was a fun and close match, but a bit swingy... he had a miserable first shooting phase, and we both decided that my failed charge was a turning point. I mostly screwed up old rules just by being rusty, but the new rules seemed pretty functional and straightforward. I'll play this guy again in a couple weeks and maybe bring some Bloody Rose and some jump troops, both of which would be more fun against an infantry army.
CleansingFire wrote: Am I understanding Heroic Intervention correctly? All characters get a free 3" move towards the enemy during the opponents fight phase.
If you can make it to within an inch of the enemy, yeah.
Now, we know that LOTS of armies use these weapons, whether supplied by the Tech-Adepts of Mars or perhaps even “acquired” through less Imperium-friendly means to turn on their former masters. In any case, when Codex: Space Marines arrives in October, every other unit that utilises the same wargear – regardless of Faction – will get their weapon profiles upgraded accordingly.
Melta weapons are about to get even more destructive at close range (apparently, such a thing IS possible!), with a flat +2 Damage bonus replacing its current ability, resulting in a whopping Damage potential of 8! What’s more, the rules team have put the ‘multi’ into multi-melta, as it’s doubling up to Heavy 2! Heretics beware…
Flamers and heavy flamers are moving to Range 12″, all the better to dissuade enemy assaults and hose your enemies down with liquid fire.
Super-size Your Heavy Bolter – Now With Added Explosive Death! These upscaled bolt weapons are set to become Damage 2, as befits the unmitigated brutality of being hit by a hail of armour-piercing, mass-reactive shells the size of tin cans!
Time to Slice and Dice!
Power swords are due to get a +1 Strength modifier, all the better for chopping up tougher foes with their energy-wreathed blades. That’s not all, either – the massive Astartes-grade chainswords wielded by Space Marines both new and old will be hitting at AP -1. Apparently, being struck by a 4-foot chainblade with adamantium-tipped teeth 6″ wide is not only exceptionally bad for your health, but it can do your armour a disservice too. Who’d have thought?
According to the release today on Warhammer Community, all of these changes will be effective across the Imperium with the release of the SM codex, including Sisters. So those power swords are indeed going to +1S and are not astartes only, the HB is moving to D2, the flamer is going to 12", and the MMs are going to H2 with +2D at half. All the speculation on the changes has been confirmed being applied in Oct.
How do we think, outside of the Immo discussion we already had, that all of these confirmed changes will impact our troop options? Do we see Retributors make a case to be valid again? Do you plan on including Zeph more with S4 attacks now? Our vehicles got a bit more deadly overall, so i think we are all in agreement there.
Assuming no point changes, these modifications to the multi-melta just made the immolator an interesting option.
145 points for 4 melta shots with a 24 inch threat, is nothing to joke about. Putting these into strategic reserve would be a headache for your opponent
The melta change (+2D inside half) is all melta weapons, not just multi-meltas. Seraphim firing inferno pistols at targets they're engaged with should be extra toasty now.
Dragonbeef4Life wrote: According to the release today on Warhammer Community, all of these changes will be effective across the Imperium with the release of the SM codex, including Sisters. So those power swords are indeed going to +1S and are not astartes only, the HB is moving to D2, the flamer is going to 12", and the MMs are going to H2 with +2D at half. All the speculation on the changes has been confirmed being applied in Oct.
How do we think, outside of the Immo discussion we already had, that all of these confirmed changes will impact our troop options? Do we see Retributors make a case to be valid again? Do you plan on including Zeph more with S4 attacks now? Our vehicles got a bit more deadly overall, so i think we are all in agreement there.
These are absolutley MASSIVE boosts to our army across the board. It's actually kind of crazy how big this is going to be.
You have to keep in mind that space marine players are going like 'hmm, yes, we might now see a 12% upgrade in point efficiency if we take multimelta drop pods over grav amp drop pods assuming you carry the 3 repeating of course'.
Meanwhile for us it's " MY WEAPONS DO DOUBLE DAMAGES FOR FREE YA'LL YIPPY KAI YAI YIPPY YIPPY YAY!
All the stuff we were taking anyway is getting better for (at least at this moment) free. Retributors become terrifying, zephyrim become crazy anti-infantry cuisinarts, mortifiers are suddenly melting intercessors and rhinos all over the board with their two damage shots. It's a good day to be the army that most makes do with the crappy old generic imperial profiles.
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Corizin wrote: It seems to me with the current changes. The Exorcist is no longer our BFF, it's going to be replaced by everything that can use a heavy weapon.
That means every squad of 5 BSS gets a heavy weapon, Retributor Squads are -in-. Mortifiers are the best thing since sliced bread.
Let's not get tooooo crazy. I'm super stoked about the changes as well but exorcists aren't out just yet and as good as multimeltas and heavy bolters are now, don't jump the gun and hand them out willy-nilly without considering that there are significant benefits to giving a unit a cheaper melta or stormbolter instead.
It's more like 'now I can take a heavy weapon in a BSS squad without feeling like I threw away 20 points!' It's finally a real option for a backline objective camper.
the real question is would you pay 2cp for +1 to hit on HB rets now at D2, still seems lackluster. Id still gladly play 2cp to get 18inch melta range on MM rets.
i was already using zephyrim at S3 so unless their points go up more with the s4 sword (hope not) they still have a place for me.
my twin flamer combi melta BSS squards became more usable so im happy there.
30" boltguns also seem a bit assanine, i hope thats just special boltguns on the vets and characters and not across the board.. unless they plan to make all basic troop rifles 30" from now on.
Edit* do we think hand flamers are going up in range if both flamers and heavy flamers went up to 12?
warmaster21 wrote: the real question is would you pay 2cp for +1 to hit on HB rets now at D2, still seems lackluster. Id still gladly play 2cp to get 18inch melta range on MM rets.
i was already using zephyrim at S3 so unless their points go up more with the s4 sword (hope not) they still have a place for me.
my twin flamer combi melta BSS squards became more usable so im happy there.
30" boltguns also seem a bit assanine, i hope thats just special boltguns on the vets and characters and not across the board.. unless they plan to make all basic troop rifles 30" from now on.
Edit* do we think hand flamers are going up in range if both flamers and heavy flamers went up to 12?
I don't see the zephyrim's points going up just because of how the smaller board size effects them. They have a pretty massive footprint between the new coherency rules and 10 model squads being the best way to run them. This has, at least in my experience, lead to it being much more difficult to use them in general.
Also about hfs...that only really matters for seraphim. at 5 points they could be 120" range and you probably wouldn't take them. At 2pts if they go to 12" (and that is the minimum range required to be useful) they could shoot twice on the drop with deadly descent. That...might be worth it in bloody rose.
It's more like 'now I can take a heavy weapon in a BSS squad without feeling like I threw away 20 points!' It's finally a real option for a backline objective camper.
Doesn't need to be backline even. Thanks to miracle dice a BSS squad with a multi-melta is a genuine deadly threat to just about anything and with 12'' range a heavy flamer in the hands of a squad sent to contest the middle objectives has a reasonable chance to shoot at something.
Though it remains a mystery to me why Heavy Flamers are more expensive then Heavy Bolters when Heavy Bolters are better in almost any situation other then overwatch.
+1 STR Power Swords for Zephyrim (BR still best, but it is a LOT LESS "no brainer" now... drops from like 75% extra efficiency vs 4T to like 10-15% more)
12" Flamers to make Holy Trinity not as hot of garbage (I'm sure it'll still be questioned, but it isn't objectively bad to force it into your units)
Rets now sporting 16" heavy flamers... that may end up being a bigger deal than it seems on the surface.
It is Christmas time... though... poor Xenos. Way to get kicked when they're down.
Heavy Bolters: -Mortifiers are now pretty tasty i think, when i had written them off before due to Grind them Down. 6 shots D2s that can assault and shoot them at 4s to hit is pretty amazing. You have a 60 pt threat that can down its equal in marines fairly efficiently while still being a threat into melee range. I still don't like that they don't benefit from much of the book, but their T5 5W durability is something of a consideration now with their offensive capacity
-Rets with HBs, though, at 100 pts flat pushing out 12 shots of D2 damage at 36" is suddenly a real threat when they can move and shoot without penalty as well. Cheaper than 2 Morts, while still getting SoF,SR,Miralce is rather nice
-BSS adding in a HB for 10 to hold on backfield may suddenly be worth it
-Heavy slot just got a lot more challenging if we see the meta having 2W targets, like confirmed SMs (including Chaos) are going, given things
Flamers: -Rets having that increase to 16" range on the heavy flamers is pretty nice too, so they have a pretty good bump up. I doubt that anyone is charging into a Ret squad though for Overwatch to do anything there. They'd get shot long before then, or charged from out of line of sight.
-I think if hand flamers go up, their cost goes up to 5 even for Seraphim then. I don't see them being 2 pts still if they can shoot twice at excellent range with them. They're cheap to compete against the inferno, but with the melta rule buff, they won't complete even at 2 pts.
-I actually don't think flamers are really key to our victory at this point. While our lore says we bath things in flame to cleanse it, the output levels of flamers still leaves me wanting now in comparison to either the HB or MM for a few points more given that flamers only get ~1.5 shots more than a MM and .5 more than a HB yet still D1. The autohit is nice, but that really only matters in bulk and our ballistic skill is decent enough
Multi-meltas: -Huge change for us I think. 20 points on a BSS squad being able to successfully take down a tank on their own with one (two shots is the real change up here, not the +2D). That makes kited out units for 75 pts holding objectives extremely deadly while backfield Rets can hold the advance.
-Immos are confirmed 145 beasts at this point. 4 shot MM transports with their HB to help clear around the obj on strategic reserves is a full fledged game changer for our deployment strategy. At PL 5, with a BSS at PL 4, 2 containers of these can be SR'd for 2 CP and really challenge a board edge. Or they start on board and can advance up the board getting the firepower from round 1. Lots of options
-Rets with pure MMs I'm not sure i'm sold on. 36" range with +1D is nice for a turn, but 2 CP for that still seems a challenge for that strat. Even +1 to hit for HBs, or rerolling w on flamers. 2 CP should have a significant impact, and i just don't see it.
-I also think regular melta guns for 10 pts now likely vanish for us as the 2 shot version for 10 pts ensures more direct killing potential for why we brought the meltas to begin with.
Powerswords make Zeph usable again across the board. The bonus with the pennant to charge will likely be huge if we can have it included with a useful ninja blender. Statistically, the powermaul is generally garbage unless we start seeing T6 melee targets being what they are fighting. And with axe being what it is for Legends, i feel like the powersword change is a great relative change for us here.
I see Storm Bolters decreasing in value a bit as they stay D1. While volume of fire is still great for us, i'd likely find the 10 for the HB now. And left over points likely would get filled with stormbolters as more an afterthought than what i want to arm them with upfront.
Purifying Tempest wrote: It is Christmas time... though... poor Xenos. Way to get kicked when they're down.
Until the xenos updates come along anyway. This could be the first step in the game becoming much more lethal.
Its a bit rough as basically half the armies out there got rather massive weapon and wounds buffs, and the other half is left with wound buffs being teased and changes to weapons. Bit of a slap in the face to say "you have to wait for your codexes" when those haven't even been announced is demoralizing. you know for at least a few months you're going to have to face off against these buffed armies and there isn't much you can do.
Anyone else thinking Heavy Bolter Immolators won't be such hot garbage any more? 125 Points for 9 S5 AP -1 D2 attacks along with a small unit transport doesn't sound so horrible compared to a unit of 5 Retributors with 3 HB for 90 points.
As 40k moves more to vehicles and +2D / high AP weaponry, 1W “cheap-ish” foot Sisters toting meltas and buffed by 4++ invuln saves looks like a pretty good winning formula to me.
alextroy wrote: Anyone else thinking Heavy Bolter Immolators won't be such hot garbage any more? 125 Points for 9 S5 AP -1 D2 attacks along with a small unit transport doesn't sound so horrible compared to a unit of 5 Retributors with 3 HB for 90 points.
They do fit into some builds, I'm sure, but for my Heavy Bolter platform I'm sticking with Mortifiers. The Immolator impresses me as an AT platform now, though.
However, I'm really hoping to see what the flamer might be capable if it also receives some attention.
Lately I've been concerned about bringing exorcists. Obviously they're great for long range shooting, but I'm getting spooked by the amount of anti tank that'll just end 'em.
Of course, if I don't take them I guess rhinos with Repentia in them become the next best target unfortunately @.@
davidgr33n wrote: As 40k moves more to vehicles and +2D / high AP weaponry, 1W “cheap-ish” foot Sisters toting meltas and buffed by 4++ invuln saves looks like a pretty good winning formula to me.
Its actually a good point, but i still worry about bulk shooting since troops are t3, the difference that volume of fire makes to them vs tanks is rather substantial. The benefit of the Exo is still that t8 is hard to punch when you're protecting it and allowing its 48" range to do its damage. Troop choices are far less durable even if you can do more output. A lot of that comes down to how you play. I only run 2 Exos as 3 is too many points on what amounts to 18 shots between them on average. That 195 is basically a rhino and full rep squad that i like much more. Immo point costs are going to throw me for a loop a bit and may have me going more pure BR than the VH/BR i play now given the ranged firepower add they get that they really lacked before
The good news with the Zeph is that in BR, They trade out a 5 MSUMEQ squad now on the charge statistically when you use Tear it Down(10 wounds at -4AP), or 8 wounds base without the strat, which might actually be better since it keeps them in combat to avoid the counter shots. Much more viable on the board now overall in any order though.
Seph get a bit of buffing in the infernos if they can survive the round post drop and get close to their target. I almost like the idea of keeping one unit of them on the board behind obscuring to keep the landspeeder/impulsor rushes i've seen a lot of lately in matches by SMs. A 15" range for 4 S8 -4, D6+2 dam is a significant shield block to tank advances. And the threat of that drop is always good, even with Auspex. They have to either keep the 2 CP and not use it, which is an advantage on its own, or their counter to the drop is to try and screen which usually means the deathstar bubbles aren't happening as much.
Both units benefit quite well from the troop aspect.
Dragonbeef4Life wrote: Heavy Bolters: -Mortifiers are now pretty tasty i think, when i had written them off before due to Grind them Down. 6 shots D2s that can assault and shoot them at 4s to hit is pretty amazing. You have a 60 pt threat that can down its equal in marines fairly efficiently while still being a threat into melee range. I still don't like that they don't benefit from much of the book, but their T5 5W durability is something of a consideration now with their offensive capacity
-Rets with HBs, though, at 100 pts flat pushing out 12 shots of D2 damage at 36" is suddenly a real threat when they can move and shoot without penalty as well. Cheaper than 2 Morts, while still getting SoF,SR,Miralce is rather nice
-BSS adding in a HB for 10 to hold on backfield may suddenly be worth it
-Heavy slot just got a lot more challenging if we see the meta having 2W targets, like confirmed SMs (including Chaos) are going, given things
Flamers: -Rets having that increase to 16" range on the heavy flamers is pretty nice too, so they have a pretty good bump up. I doubt that anyone is charging into a Ret squad though for Overwatch to do anything there. They'd get shot long before then, or charged from out of line of sight.
-I think if hand flamers go up, their cost goes up to 5 even for Seraphim then. I don't see them being 2 pts still if they can shoot twice at excellent range with them. They're cheap to compete against the inferno, but with the melta rule buff, they won't complete even at 2 pts.
-I actually don't think flamers are really key to our victory at this point. While our lore says we bath things in flame to cleanse it, the output levels of flamers still leaves me wanting now in comparison to either the HB or MM for a few points more given that flamers only get ~1.5 shots more than a MM and .5 more than a HB yet still D1. The autohit is nice, but that really only matters in bulk and our ballistic skill is decent enough
Multi-meltas: -Huge change for us I think. 20 points on a BSS squad being able to successfully take down a tank on their own with one (two shots is the real change up here, not the +2D). That makes kited out units for 75 pts holding objectives extremely deadly while backfield Rets can hold the advance.
-Immos are confirmed 145 beasts at this point. 4 shot MM transports with their HB to help clear around the obj on strategic reserves is a full fledged game changer for our deployment strategy. At PL 5, with a BSS at PL 4, 2 containers of these can be SR'd for 2 CP and really challenge a board edge. Or they start on board and can advance up the board getting the firepower from round 1. Lots of options
-Rets with pure MMs I'm not sure i'm sold on. 36" range with +1D is nice for a turn, but 2 CP for that still seems a challenge for that strat. Even +1 to hit for HBs, or rerolling w on flamers. 2 CP should have a significant impact, and i just don't see it.
-I also think regular melta guns for 10 pts now likely vanish for us as the 2 shot version for 10 pts ensures more direct killing potential for why we brought the meltas to begin with.
Powerswords make Zeph usable again across the board. The bonus with the pennant to charge will likely be huge if we can have it included with a useful ninja blender. Statistically, the powermaul is generally garbage unless we start seeing T6 melee targets being what they are fighting. And with axe being what it is for Legends, i feel like the powersword change is a great relative change for us here.
I see Storm Bolters decreasing in value a bit as they stay D1. While volume of fire is still great for us, i'd likely find the 10 for the HB now. And left over points likely would get filled with stormbolters as more an afterthought than what i want to arm them with upfront.
Purifying Tempest wrote: It is Christmas time... though... poor Xenos. Way to get kicked when they're down.
Until the xenos updates come along anyway. This could be the first step in the game becoming much more lethal.
Its a bit rough as basically half the armies out there got rather massive weapon and wounds buffs, and the other half is left with wound buffs being teased and changes to weapons. Bit of a slap in the face to say "you have to wait for your codexes" when those haven't even been announced is demoralizing. you know for at least a few months you're going to have to face off against these buffed armies and there isn't much you can do.
Mortifiers were always really tasty. Mostly because I find we're desperately trying to trick our opponents into taking bring it rather than assasinate in VH and BR builds. Yes, focus the mortifier, ignore the beneficence canoness or the book imagifier, they don't mean you no harm no how .
HB Rets are definitely a real option but SoF and MD are irrelevant on a cheap, flat damage, high RoF squad. Divine guidance and order convictions are nice for sure though. Is it enough to overcome the mortifiers midboard control and strong melee output? Depends on the list.
Honestly probably the best option for a 10pt upgrade. Makes those 3 min squads you have to take for the battalion actually contribute.
Rets with Heavy flamers coming out of a rhino or immolator have a 25" threat range(+d6 if you're argent shroud). That's not bad for midboard objective sweeping.
I totally disagree about hand flamers. They could shoot 3 times and still not be worth 5 points. At 2pts and 12" range they MIGHT be a useful tech option for killing guard/eldar troops. Though I sincerely doubt it when you consider that that strategy is most effective with 10 girl units and 10girl deepstriking seraphim are pretty much dead both to their rather large footprint and heavy price bump.
Regular flamers still suck, agreed. Heavy flamers are at least usable now. Pengines might get to shoot occasionally.
I would rather have the HB than the MM on objective camping squads. Especially considering that the change to meltas may well result in less vehicles total. Also, single shot weapons have a notorious failure rate.
MM immos are definitely looking like a compelling option, especially considering they're the tank we can blow up on purpose.
MM rets are gonna be our big damage nukes. Don't forget that that strat also gives plus one damage. With 4 of them either in a 10 girl in cover or in a vehicle with a couple of ablative bodies, you can basically guarantee 12 shots at an 18" melta range. It's like bringing 2 units of better eradicators all of a sudden. You can also outflank them and a canoness for 1 CP and come in and waste the hell out 2, maybe even 3 vehicles. They're honestly pretty nuts now.
I sincerely doubt regular meltas are going away. You'll probably see people actually put a heavy weapon into the heavy weapon slot, but that doesn't mean a combi-melta or a regular melta gun isn't still a great option. With a huge number of the models in the game now getting extra wounds, there's going to be a bigger premium on multi wound damage than ever. Maybe not every unit gets 40pts of gun upgrades, but plenty are. Especially considering that bolters are completely useless.
I still wouldn't take zephyrim outside of BR. I'm much more likely to take them IN BR though. I never particularly valued the pennant. Most of my charges are guaranteed and I pretty much always use zephyrim on flanks so the bubble just doesn't do anything for me.
The bonus to the Powermaul isn't as big as the bonus to the powersword but it is still better than the sword against things like bikes and mortifiers and it's now doubling out guardsman and sisters. It's still a perfectly legit option for bloody rose, though the powersword goes from being unusable garbage to our baseline weapon.
I agree stormbolters really go down here. they're basically dominions only at this point. Blessed bolts did get a lot better as a result of all the wound increases.
I totally disagree about hand flamers. They could shoot 3 times and still not be worth 5 points. At 2pts and 12" range they MIGHT be a useful tech option for killing guard/eldar troops. Though I sincerely doubt it when you consider that that strategy is most effective with 10 girl units and 10girl deepstriking seraphim are pretty much dead both to their rather large footprint and heavy price bump.
I would rather have the HB than the MM on objective camping squads. Especially considering that the change to meltas may well result in less vehicles total. Also, single shot weapons have a notorious failure rate.
MM rets are gonna be our big damage nukes. Don't forget that that strat also gives plus one damage. With 4 of them either in a 10 girl in cover or in a vehicle with a couple of ablative bodies, you can basically guarantee 12 shots at an 18" melta range. It's like bringing 2 units of better eradicators all of a sudden. You can also outflank them and a canoness for 1 CP and come in and waste the hell out 2, maybe even 3 vehicles. They're honestly pretty nuts now.
I sincerely doubt regular meltas are going away. You'll probably see people actually put a heavy weapon into the heavy weapon slot, but that doesn't mean a combi-melta or a regular melta gun isn't still a great option. With a huge number of the models in the game now getting extra wounds, there's going to be a bigger premium on multi wound damage than ever. Maybe not every unit gets 40pts of gun upgrades, but plenty are. Especially considering that bolters are completely useless.
I still wouldn't take zephyrim outside of BR. I'm much more likely to take them IN BR though. I never particularly valued the pennant. Most of my charges are guaranteed and I pretty much always use zephyrim on flanks so the bubble just doesn't do anything for me.
I think we actually agree on hand flamers. I don't think that they are good, esp as they might increase in price if they go up in range. You have to take too much to make them effective and 200 pts in one seraphim squad for some hand flamer usage isn't a good trade off.
The HB vs MM is quite possible on obj squads. If the shift is to lots of infantry and less of the vehicle, HBs take a huge boost. At S5, though, if there is armor on the board, you're still having a hard time penetrating with 5s to wound and only -1AP. It drops off quickly. The benefit to the front line having the MMs is that their punch range is pushed forward, and HBs can likely stay in back with their 36" range and still hold well while contributing. Keep in mind, MMs are now 2 shots each, so no longer the worry of the one shot fail. The likelihood of failing both MMs is now only 11% vs 33% for 1 shot, or 25% vs 50% resepctively if the BSS moved (and without reroll 1s from a Canoness). Effectively better than double than what is was before.
Fair point on the +1D. At half range, that is a threat of 8 MM shots with 4-10 damage (with miracle buff) per hit at 18 and 2-7 at 18.1-36. I'm still hard pressed to think that is worth 2 CP, but suppose if you need to guarantee that blowout early T2, its a good way to make it happen. Fully agreed on the reserves portion. But likely, that will be the 2 Immos for me with BSS squad for capping (which i also like for the auto explode now as you point out). It really forces them to be extremely wary of those transports just in general.
My only thing with meltas is that for 10 points, you get half the shots and half the range at half the cost. I suppose there could be room there, but I'd find another 10 for a full MM, or drop them having the melta period or use the 10 for a HB somewhere that could still pump out 6 wounds on multiple targets potentially. Just seems for the point cost, the alternates are now a little better than having a melta on a squad girl.
The pennant i like because of its aura. I don't think its useful for them on the drop alone. But you throw them within 6 of a Rep squad that needs to make it, and you can likely ensure the Rep get where they need while then using the miracle you were going to throw there into the Zeph for a different target. For 5 points, the aura is great to avoid having to worry about charge targets with other units. Even with the flank charge, unless you're screening the other side to your Reps, you can drop them where they are still side screening. I rarely find myself actually dropping them backfield (though the discussion on Deploy Scanners is still a viable discussion here). What i've mainly heard from SoB players is the pennant isn't needed on them, but i find that bubble is 100% amazing when you think of it as a means of ensuring the Celestials or Reps make it where they need to.
The October FAQ contains point updates for MFM, before seeing the new point costs it is hard to say what will be good and what not, but our meltas are surely going to gain some teeth.
Spoletta wrote: The October FAQ contains point updates for MFM, before seeing the new point costs it is hard to say what will be good and what not, but our meltas are surely going to gain some teeth.
Are we certain of that? The fact they adjusted points in MFM in preparation for the releases happening leads me to believe that current points make sense for the changes
Spoletta wrote: The October FAQ contains point updates for MFM, before seeing the new point costs it is hard to say what will be good and what not, but our meltas are surely going to gain some teeth.
Are we certain of that? The fact they adjusted points in MFM in preparation for the releases happening leads me to believe that current points make sense for the changes
We are certain of that, or do you really expect CSM to go to 2 wounds without point adjustments?
Spoletta wrote: The October FAQ contains point updates for MFM, before seeing the new point costs it is hard to say what will be good and what not, but our meltas are surely going to gain some teeth.
Are we certain of that? The fact they adjusted points in MFM in preparation for the releases happening leads me to believe that current points make sense for the changes
We are certain of that, or do you really expect CSM to go to 2 wounds without point adjustments?
Oh, i'm sure the codex will change the SM cost, as they even showed that Tac version goes from 15 to 18 (20%). But if you read, the changes to the Chaos SMs or others (DG/TS) will be done in each of their own codex releases and must wait.
I doubt they'll update MFM because its a Codex change post MFM release. Nothing in the notice indicates that the points outside of the Codex update would be changed, and simply indicates the Imperium would have the stat lines of the weapon update with the SM codex.They already adjusted the points with MFM to start between Infantry and Vehicle.
Hmm, re-reading it you may be right. I had understood that the changes to all flavor of marines (loyal and spiky) were coming immediately, but it doesn't look like so.
Spoletta wrote: The October FAQ contains point updates for MFM, before seeing the new point costs it is hard to say what will be good and what not, but our meltas are surely going to gain some teeth.
Are we certain of that? The fact they adjusted points in MFM in preparation for the releases happening leads me to believe that current points make sense for the changes
Well certainly GW is stupid enough to do that but you shouldn't make points for FUTURE rules but what they are NOW.
So we have to ask: Are GW developers idiots or not? If they are then points won't be changed.
Spoletta wrote: The October FAQ contains point updates for MFM, before seeing the new point costs it is hard to say what will be good and what not, but our meltas are surely going to gain some teeth.
Are we certain of that? The fact they adjusted points in MFM in preparation for the releases happening leads me to believe that current points make sense for the changes
Well certainly GW is stupid enough to do that but you shouldn't make points for FUTURE rules but what they are NOW.
So we have to ask: Are GW developers idiots or not? If they are then points won't be changed.
MFM was finalized and printed months and months ago. Most likely long before GW knew that Codex Space Marines would be delayed till October. If GW planned on releasing 9th in late July and Codex Space Marines in August, it would just be a few weeks between the release of the MFM and all the stat-updates resulting from the Space Marines release.
Including points values to reflect the profiles that would come out almost immediately makes a lot more sense than releasing a book that would be obsolete within a week or two.
Then something happened that caused the Space Marine book to be seriously delayed.
A very plausible supposition. GW did lose considerable amounts of production time both in China for book production and in Nottingham for model production for all the kits to roll out with Codex Space Marines and Codex Necrons.
Here's to hoping GW preplanned the equipment cost in CA2020. I really want the two Multi-Melta Retributors I built to be good along with the 4 Heavy Bolters I have.
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: So out of curiosity where does the exorcist stand now with the improvement to Multi-meltas?
I still think it has a place in any list, just not likely a 2 of default and possible 3 of in comp lists. The 48" threat is still undeniable for an anti-tank, 3-9 shot BLAST (shame its 3 min by model not dice for it) that does d6. You need something with that range, and the T8 is the best we got to help keep it up.
But at 200 pts, we now would have other options that are still anti-tank threats. Including our Immos suddenly becoming good TANKS themselves, though T7 10W does mean that they'll likely get blasted quickly.
My own list planning, assuming no price changes, has me kind of all over the board now and its actually a bit frustrating. Ha. I love VH/BR builds, but I'm leaning into BR only and I always end up with at least one Exo, one Immo and 2 Rhinos for the full Rep sisters. But my troops seem to jump around. I'm between Zeph/Seph drop pockets (even with the increased cost, they really are quite worth it in MSU support groups) and actually just sticking heavy on the BSS/Celestians. While they don't get the benefit of the Rets, I keep going to the ablative wound and threat that they 55 pt squads suddenly do when armed with D2 weaponry on HBs. 65 Pts for them with obsec is really looking good.
Is one exorcist worth it? When I was fiddling around with points I ended up in a similar position. I ended up going only BR and looking at retributors with MM to fill up the role of anti tank and an immolator.
Zephyrim I'm flip flopping on. I feel like I want to take a close to max unit which makes points awkward.
If you have other targets to make sure it's not focused down then probably. But I haven't played with the new codex yet so I'm pretty behind on tactics.
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: Is one exorcist worth it? When I was fiddling around with points I ended up in a similar position. I ended up going only BR and looking at retributors with MM to fill up the role of anti tank and an immolator.
Zephyrim I'm flip flopping on. I feel like I want to take a close to max unit which makes points awkward.
I like them MSU in BR. 16 attacks on the charge. Statistically: 10.67 hits, against MEQ is 3.56 wounds, rerolling from Rapturous the 7.11 missed for another 2.37 wounds totaling 6(5.93) wounds at -4 AP. Typically resulting in 3 primaris dying or 6 Tac. That's current mathhammer. And they will survive the pushback from the MEQ usually quite well at 3+ since many of them dont have any AP (or -1 with astertes chainswords) still giving us a good chance to stay up. Putting that as a max unit just isn't worth it to me. 100 pts gets you that and 105 gets you the pennant aura to help ensure charges. That's awesome in my experience at holding down what you need. Rapturous is huge as a free buff and -4A means just about everything in the game that you're going to want to put them into isn't saving.
When you look post PS update, that +1S is astronomical on them. Using the same comparison, those 10.67 hits turn into 8.00 wounds now (35% better return than S3) statistically still at -4. Tear them Down and you're at near 10(9.48) wounds on average. That's pretty monstrous. And really doesn't need a full unit either way. Take two MSU of them if you want, and you can split engage them that much easier if you're wanting them.
If you take the Passion:
Current- 16A: 2.67 explosions. So you're at 13.67 hits; 4.56 initial wounds, 3.04 from Rapturous at 7.60 wounds total
Post- 16A: 2.67 explosions. So you're at 13.67 hits; 6.84 initial wounds, 3.42 from Rapturous at 10.26, and you don't even need the strategem
Passion is great is you're going into melee mode with Ret, Zeph, and possibly even Seraphim to tie up back lines. Tagging those relic scorpius is amazing since they are blast, they do next to nothing to the girls and you stop a 250 pt unit from being annoying.
If you're using another order, that becomes more of a point to take better than MSU. I've never tried them on anything but VH or BR myself. VH they have some durability if you don't need strike them but use as your vangaurd melee deterrent. I'm still hard pressed to use other orders. Ebon is the only one that I see being viable as a 5+++ in a durability war is pretty damning with the new Imperial firepower, but the girls do tend to hold out well even still with SOF when needed. I may change up the VH to Ebon though, but need to playtest, if we see the meta shift from bulk fire -1/-2 into hard hitting weapons.
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: Is one exorcist worth it? When I was fiddling around with points I ended up in a similar position. I ended up going only BR and looking at retributors with MM to fill up the role of anti tank and an immolator.
Zephyrim I'm flip flopping on. I feel like I want to take a close to max unit which makes points awkward.
I like them MSU in BR. 16 attacks on the charge. Statistically: 10.67 hits, against MEQ is 3.56 wounds, rerolling from Rapturous the 7.11 missed for another 2.37 wounds totaling 6(5.93) wounds at -4 AP. Typically resulting in 3 primaris dying or 6 Tac. That's current mathhammer. And they will survive the pushback from the MEQ usually quite well at 3+ since many of them dont have any AP (or -1 with astertes chainswords) still giving us a good chance to stay up. Putting that as a max unit just isn't worth it to me. 100 pts gets you that and 105 gets you the pennant aura to help ensure charges. That's awesome in my experience at holding down what you need. Rapturous is huge as a free buff and -4A means just about everything in the game that you're going to want to put them into isn't saving.
When you look post PS update, that +1S is astronomical on them. Using the same comparison, those 10.67 hits turn into 8.00 wounds now (35% better return than S3) statistically still at -4. Tear them Down and you're at near 10(9.48) wounds on average. That's pretty monstrous. And really doesn't need a full unit either way. Take two MSU of them if you want, and you can split engage them that much easier if you're wanting them.
If you take the Passion:
Current- 16A: 2.67 explosions. So you're at 13.67 hits; 4.56 initial wounds, 3.04 from Rapturous at 7.60 wounds total
Post- 16A: 2.67 explosions. So you're at 13.67 hits; 6.84 initial wounds, 3.42 from Rapturous at 10.26, and you don't even need the strategem
Passion is great is you're going into melee mode with Ret, Zeph, and possibly even Seraphim to tie up back lines. Tagging those relic scorpius is amazing since they are blast, they do next to nothing to the girls and you stop a 250 pt unit from being annoying.
If you're using another order, that becomes more of a point to take better than MSU. I've never tried them on anything but VH or BR myself. VH they have some durability if you don't need strike them but use as your vangaurd melee deterrent. I'm still hard pressed to use other orders. Ebon is the only one that I see being viable as a 5+++ in a durability war is pretty damning with the new Imperial firepower, but the girls do tend to hold out well even still with SOF when needed. I may change up the VH to Ebon though, but need to playtest, if we see the meta shift from bulk fire -1/-2 into hard hitting weapons.
Personally, at S3 I for sure would never take 5(exception being I'm just using them to buff mortifiers on the drop). Killing 3 primaris and surviving is fine, but it doesn't actually accomplish much. Zephyrim don't have obsec so you either need to eliminate a meaningful target with them or sweep an objective entirely. 5 at S3 can't do that. 5 at S4 might be able to so they're a more interesting choice once the power weapon buffs come in.
In a pure BR list, min squads are only useful if you're going full morties because of how ridiculously tight Bloody Rose's elite slots are. Even just using them as buff bots, I'd still probably shoot for getting a squad of ten. In mixed lists you tend to have more slot freedom so MSU might be a really good option there.
Part of what I think makes bloody rose so good is the fact that you can just pick the passion blind and know you're getting massive value out of it. It's easily the most powerful of the sacred rights unless you're up against something like smitespam thousand sons.
Are people still taking the relic scorpius? I haven't even heard of one of those hitting the table in a long time. Not when everybody and their brother is running quad-las contemptors.
As for orders, the only melee I would really consider taking outside of BR are Arcos and morties. Zephyrim hit like limp noodles without the extra attack and AP and repentia lose almost half of their output. Don't underestimate Argent Shroud, btw. Once we get the good guns going you're going to be able to do some really silly things with argent shroud BSS squads and ESPECIALLY MM Immolators.
See, i'm torn on that. On an MSUMEQ squad, I'd rather be stuck in combat knowing I go first on their turn to finish them off statistically during their phase fighting (unless there are multiple ongoing fights). I like it because while you're correct that in all likelihood and this gives them the primary obj points, but I now spent minimal points on a unit that they couldn't turn and shoot to remove off the space. If your 10 man cleans up their unit, they're now likely gone. This way, i not only survive with most if not all of them, but I also have them controlling it quite possibly on our T3 for primary obj points on a 13-24" threat range to go clear up or tie up another unit.
I think Sisters players put a little too much emphasis on destroying when tying and surviving is a real strength. Part of why Nurglings are so feared atm. We can do it almost as well, but our offensive output is higher. Less wounds, obviously, but trapping into combat is quite powerful without the need to wipe.
They've been relatively prominent lately in addition to the contemptors. The CA/UKGT at the start of Aug had a Salamander list take 1st with one. Looking at other GT lists, they appear in other top 5 lists fairly frequently along with their Hellforged breathren in CSM lists. I've also seen them popping up a lot in TTS playtest scenarios and performing well. I've only seen the contemptors hit top tables in the Sob/IF list from Dan S. While they hit hard, they don't seem to be pushing top lists forward much. And i think Dan's list succeeded with them because the Sisters took the front line with the 27 repentia
AS may well prove powerful with the ability to move and shoot without penalty on the gun toting side of our army. Def something I need to look into with the post heavy changes. Good call to look at.
Thinking outside the box a little. I’ve seen Tau using minimum drone units to grab objectives or even do actions.
Our cheapest unit, DCA, come in at a cheap 26 points for minimum 2 unit, and also have a 5 invuln and a PL1. I’ve been considering 3 of these units for outflanking or tucking away near an obscured objective. And they would work great for the Scramblers or Engage all Fronts secondaries. Yes they’ll die to a few shots but they WILL have to be dealt with by some unit.
davidgr33n wrote: Thinking outside the box a little. I’ve seen Tau using minimum drone units to grab objectives or even do actions.
Our cheapest unit, DCA, come in at a cheap 26 points for minimum 2 unit, and also have a 5 invuln and a PL1. I’ve been considering 3 of these units for outflanking or tucking away near an obscured objective. And they would work great for the Scramblers or Engage all Fronts secondaries. Yes they’ll die to a few shots but they WILL have to be dealt with by some unit.
Has anyone else considered this possibility?
Crusaders are only 6 points more expensive for the pair and a 3++. Add +1S powerwords and I think they'd be the best option for that sort of thing (and a totally obnoxious tenner to pop out of a rhino.)
davidgr33n wrote: Thinking outside the box a little. I’ve seen Tau using minimum drone units to grab objectives or even do actions.
Our cheapest unit, DCA, come in at a cheap 26 points for minimum 2 unit, and also have a 5 invuln and a PL1. I’ve been considering 3 of these units for outflanking or tucking away near an obscured objective. And they would work great for the Scramblers or Engage all Fronts secondaries. Yes they’ll die to a few shots but they WILL have to be dealt with by some unit.
Has anyone else considered this possibility?
Drones don't have the infantry keyword they can't do the majority of actions certainly none of the base secondaries ' vital intelligence is the only one I can think of.
Tel11 wrote: Given the melta change are Immolators now even remotely competitive again if you were already planning on running some rhinos?
With the combined changes to meltas and heavy bolters, immolators are a perfectly viable option. The problem before was that you could take a rhino and 50pts of literally anything and outperform what an immolator could do for the same points.
Now that the MM immolators firepower has more than doubled, assuming no big points hike, they become pretty scary. You could very likely even see a return to 6th-7th edition immospam lists of 5+ with small squads of dominions or battle sisters camping out in them to take objectives after they pop.
Also don't forget that we can auto explode immolators, so killing them in CQC is very risky for a lot of armies.
I'm slowly working on a Adepta Sororitas army as a side project. I plan on running them as Bloody Rose, should I model my Superiors with double bolt pistols? I assume yes, it seems better than the one shot at range you get out of the boltgun?
Is there a good reason not to? I just started the faction.
Yziel wrote: I'm slowly working on a Adepta Sororitas army as a side project. I plan on running them as Bloody Rose, should I model my Superiors with double bolt pistols? I assume yes, it seems better than the one shot at range you get out of the boltgun?
Is there a good reason not to? I just started the faction.
Note: What follow is an accurate analysis. However, two bolt pistols is not a valid weapon option for a Sister Superior, other than on Seraphim.
The only time twin bolt pistols will be better than blowgun and bolt pistol is if your unit is in Engagement Range of the enemy. At up to 12", you get two shots out of the boltgun just like you do with twin bolt pistols. Over 12" you can shot once with the boltgun, which you can't do with the twin Bolt Pistols.
As a base, any Sister Superior should be armed with Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, and Chainsword. That is zero points of weapons with maximum flexibility. For a specific role (or the rule of cool), you can upgrade any one of those weapons to a more powerful option if you are willing to pay the points.
Yziel wrote: I'm slowly working on a Adepta Sororitas army as a side project. I plan on running them as Bloody Rose, should I model my Superiors with double bolt pistols? I assume yes, it seems better than the one shot at range you get out of the boltgun?
Is there a good reason not to? I just started the faction.
It's irrelevant. The amount of difference when you take into account the loss of the single shot at 24" range is probably like .0004 wounds on average.
Why wouldn't you be able to equip 2 pistols? Bolt pistols are also found both in the pistol and ranged lists. So there shouldn't be anything stopping you from replacing the boltgun with a second pistol.
Note: What follow is an accurate analysis. However, two bolt pistols is not a valid weapon option for a Sister Superior, other than on Seraphim.
The only time twin bolt pistols will be better than blowgun and bolt pistol is if your unit is in Engagement Range of the enemy. At up to 12", you get two shots out of the boltgun just like you do with twin bolt pistols. Over 12" you can shot once with the boltgun, which you can't do with the twin Bolt Pistols.
As a base, any Sister Superior should be armed with Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, and Chainsword. That is zero points of weapons with maximum flexibility. For a specific role (or the rule of cool), you can upgrade any one of those weapons to a more powerful option if you are willing to pay the points.
To the validity of it. I could be misreading things but the codex, battlescribe and wahapedia all allow it since a Superior can change her Boltgun for a weapon on the Ranged Weapons list which does contain the Bolt pistol.
The reason I want to do it is because Pistols get AP -1 with Bloody Rose so I get 2 shots at range 12 with AP -1 instead of 1 shot at 24 with AP 0 or 2 shots at 12 with AP 0.
Please correct me if there is a rule or errata I've missed because I wouldn't want to model them with an invalid loadout obviously xD
You are correct. I forgot the Bolt Pistol was on the Ranged Weapon list as well as the Pistol list. Still, you give up a lot of range to take advantage of the -1 AP on pistols.
What's the viability of using retributor squads with less than 4 heavy weapons? MMs are pretty pricey, so having a squad with just 2 MMs and cherubs is a lot easier points wise, but am I wasting their utility by doing so?
Currently, I can't see what a pair of Multi-meltas can actually achieve. You can add a could of Armorium Cherubs to allow you one round of 4 MM shots, but that's not going to exactly destroy anything of note.
When the new Multi-Melta comes to town, it starts looking much more viable.
alextroy wrote: Currently, I can't see what a pair of Multi-meltas can actually achieve. You can add a could of Armorium Cherubs to allow you one round of 4 MM shots, but that's not going to exactly destroy anything of note.
When the new Multi-Melta comes to town, it starts looking much more viable.
I am in such an early stage of build, nothing would be ready until the October change so my question is purely with 2 shot MM in mind. That's 8 MM shots (using cherubs) from a unit that costs 110pts, and allows me to spread weapons out a little more to create target saturation (I figure 4 MM rets will be a priority target)
Note: What follow is an accurate analysis. However, two bolt pistols is not a valid weapon option for a Sister Superior, other than on Seraphim.
The only time twin bolt pistols will be better than blowgun and bolt pistol is if your unit is in Engagement Range of the enemy. At up to 12", you get two shots out of the boltgun just like you do with twin bolt pistols. Over 12" you can shot once with the boltgun, which you can't do with the twin Bolt Pistols.
As a base, any Sister Superior should be armed with Boltgun, Bolt Pistol, and Chainsword. That is zero points of weapons with maximum flexibility. For a specific role (or the rule of cool), you can upgrade any one of those weapons to a more powerful option if you are willing to pay the points.
To the validity of it. I could be misreading things but the codex, battlescribe and wahapedia all allow it since a Superior can change her Boltgun for a weapon on the Ranged Weapons list which does contain the Bolt pistol.
The reason I want to do it is because Pistols get AP -1 with Bloody Rose so I get 2 shots at range 12 with AP -1 instead of 1 shot at 24 with AP 0 or 2 shots at 12 with AP 0.
Please correct me if there is a rule or errata I've missed because I wouldn't want to model them with an invalid loadout obviously xD
It's an irrelevant difference. The one to two shots you might get at 24" that you won't get at 12 over the course of a game almost completely negate the bonus of the -1 rend.
Model them how you like them, it's not like bolt weapons matter all that much anyway.
It's an irrelevant difference. The one to two shots you might get at 24" that you won't get at 12 over the course of a game almost completely negate the bonus of the -1 rend.
Model them how you like them, it's not like bolt weapons matter all that much anyway.
I wouldn't say it's irrelevant, maybe if it was only one model but my list will have 7-8 models that have either a boltgun or twin bolt pistol and at that point I do believe it's worth actually thinking about.
My list will generally not castle, it should be moving up the board so averaging out playing against aggressive lists and castles I still believe I should be within 12" often enough to be worth getting the -1AP shots.
If anyone has any experiences to relate that would be cool though! I'll probably give them pistols because it's cooler.
It's an irrelevant difference. The one to two shots you might get at 24" that you won't get at 12 over the course of a game almost completely negate the bonus of the -1 rend.
Model them how you like them, it's not like bolt weapons matter all that much anyway.
I wouldn't say it's irrelevant, maybe if it was only one model but my list will have 7-8 models that have either a boltgun or twin bolt pistol and at that point I do believe it's worth actually thinking about.
My list will generally not castle, it should be moving up the board so averaging out playing against aggressive lists and castles I still believe I should be within 12" often enough to be worth getting the -1AP shots.
If anyone has any experiences to relate that would be cool though! I'll probably give them pistols because it's cooler.
That's as good of a reason as any to equip them that way.
The amount of damage that one additional bolt shot outside of 12" does is exactly equivalent to the extra damage -1 ap on 2 bolt shots does. So for it to make a difference you'd need two turns of shooting minimum after turn one to go positive on damage.
So with bolt pistols if you don't shoot turn one and do shoot turn two, it's exactly the same damage as a bolt gun. If you then shoot turn three, the bolt pistols are better. If you die or don't have a target turn 3, bolt guns are better.
It's incredibly close at all times. Play them how you like.
Something I've seen done in some lists is running 2 units of Seraphim with inferno pistols, but one unit is 10 girls while the other is 5. I assume that is so one squad can use the extra bolt shots to clear screens or something? Because sometimes the larger footprint for the unit would be kind of annoying depending on where you want the unit to go. Also, are plasma pistols a worthwhile buy on Seraphim? The extra high-strength shot seems decent for adding just a couple more wounds to something that you need killed (nothing more frustrating than letting a big enemy unit get away with 2 wounds left and a repair strat to use on their next turn amirite?).
The Plasma pistol is one of those things that I initially want but will often drop when I'm trying to cut points to add something else in, which means that if you have some points to spare, you might as well sink them there.
As for the unit sizes, this was something I really enjoyed doing in 8th but nobody seemed to share my enthusiasm about it back then. Both units will make use of Deadly Descent, but the larger Squad is there to make room for my Zephyrim on turn 2 or clear screens for the Repentia. The smaller unit is meant to be a utility tool for turn 3.
How many detachments are you needing to take to fit all the tools in your list?
I find myself with either a battalion plus patrol but then very low on command points, or I’m taking a brigade with a couple extra units I really don’t want but at least I have a few more CP.
davidgr33n wrote: How many detachments are you needing to take to fit all the tools in your list?
I find myself with either a battalion plus patrol but then very low on command points, or I’m taking a brigade with a couple extra units I really don’t want but at least I have a few more CP.
I'm leaning towards either single battalion/brigade for a mono-Order list, or Battalion/Vanguard for a combo list (VH Battalion, BR Vanguard). Still waiting to see what's good before I commit to buying anything else, though; right now I'm glad I didn't go all-in on Exorcists or Zephyrim, although a few Zephs could be handy I guess.
davidgr33n wrote: How many detachments are you needing to take to fit all the tools in your list?
I find myself with either a battalion plus patrol but then very low on command points, or I’m taking a brigade with a couple extra units I really don’t want but at least I have a few more CP.
I know people like to maximize CP, but how is paying 2 CP for adding a patrol to your battalion starting with low CP?
And what exactly are you adding that is worth the cost if it concerns you so much?
Well, I guess you have to decide if that 2 CP spent on the detachment is better spent on something else and instead bring the Brigade or adjust your list otherwise to keep the CP.
I can't really complain about players needing to make strategic decisions like that.
alextroy wrote: Well, I guess you have to decide if that 2 CP spent on the detachment is better spent on something else and instead bring the Brigade or adjust your list otherwise to keep the CP.
I can't really complain about players needing to make strategic decisions like that.
Yep, and I’m not complaining about how many CP I take, my question was how many detachments are people taking to get all their tools in; and I added the comment that taking more detachments meant less CP, not that I was “starting with low CP”, which would be obvious to most.
I currently do the VH Battalion (with Warlord), Vanguard BR for -3, and the Fort for the Sanctum which is refunded since its same faction. I then generally spend 2 pregame for a warlord trait (typically BoF and IB as my two) and an extra relic (drastically varies by setup being tested). This puts me at -5 to start, and I find that 7 is typically ok to deal with. I bring an assassin with me, that now with the stratagem rules in place, can let me do pretty good work at replenishing CP thru Priority Threat Neutralized, picking up 1-2 typically and more on a good day. Or I'm using Martyred on either Celestine as my usual warlord dying or my Warlord if I'm going heavy BR testing, which typically nets me at least 1 more. So while I start at 7, I typically actually end up having the equivalent of 10 and having exactly what I want on the field without much random CP regen mishaps. I've only really gone to 0 in one match where I felt I needed like 3 or so more CP to do what I need and didn't have.
alextroy wrote: Well, I guess you have to decide if that 2 CP spent on the detachment is better spent on something else and instead bring the Brigade or adjust your list otherwise to keep the CP.
I can't really complain about players needing to make strategic decisions like that.
Yep, and I’m not complaining about how many CP I take, my question was how many detachments are people taking to get all their tools in; and I added the comment that taking more detachments meant less CP, not that I was “starting with low CP”, which would be obvious to most.
I take one battalion in any list where I'm not mixing and matching Orders and I tend to mix and match orders a lot less now. If I AM mixing orders I try to take a patrol wherever possible(bloody rose as secondary HAS to be vanguard). I spend 2 CP on 1 additional relic and a warlord trait.
I run out of CP turn 2 or 3 usually so I need the absolute max CP I can get. My warlord almost never dies (who's bothering to target down Celestine in 2020?) so I can't usually get martyrdom. If I'm running bloody rose that usually means transports so I take Righteous Rage and Beneficence with the option for Book, Surplice, or Blade depending on what my overall strategy is. If I'm running VH that usually means infantry so I take Indomitable and Book with options for Litanies or Surplice. AS can be either so it depends on the build. A vehicle heavy AS build post weapon buffs might not use ANY additional WT or relics and start the game with 12.
alextroy wrote: Well, I guess you have to decide if that 2 CP spent on the detachment is better spent on something else and instead bring the Brigade or adjust your list otherwise to keep the CP.
I can't really complain about players needing to make strategic decisions like that.
Yep, and I’m not complaining about how many CP I take, my question was how many detachments are people taking to get all their tools in; and I added the comment that taking more detachments meant less CP, not that I was “starting with low CP”, which would be obvious to most.
I take one battalion in any list where I'm not mixing and matching Orders and I tend to mix and match orders a lot less now. If I AM mixing orders I try to take a patrol wherever possible(bloody rose as secondary HAS to be vanguard). I spend 2 CP on 1 additional relic and a warlord trait.
I run out of CP turn 2 or 3 usually so I need the absolute max CP I can get. My warlord almost never dies (who's bothering to target down Celestine in 2020?) so I can't usually get martyrdom. If I'm running bloody rose that usually means transports so I take Righteous Rage and Beneficence with the option for Book, Surplice, or Blade depending on what my overall strategy is. If I'm running VH that usually means infantry so I take Indomitable and Book with options for Litanies or Surplice. AS can be either so it depends on the build. A vehicle heavy AS build post weapon buffs might not use ANY additional WT or relics and start the game with 12.
I find this sad on the turn 2 or 3 CP runout. I am usually out turn 3, but not usually turn 2. The roughest thing that hit us with the build out in the codex, is that souping the detachments seems intended, yet we now have significantly less CP overall. I was getting 12+ CP after stratagem expenditure in 8th that those 5ish missing CPs really drastically hurt us. I know we generate the 1 per now, but the option of dumping for early output is drastically reduced where we need it. Especially as we have 0 strats for defense (AS has a FNP strat, thats about it). Whereas most armies out there have something to protect. So we are very reliant on being an output based army with these CP to help swing during our turn. That cut of 5 has been hard to shift.
And I for one push Celestine in there, which is why I have better results at getting Martyrdom. S7 D2 swinging around on wings generally requires her to be dealt with in T3 by something bigger. And honestly, if I don't get the CP cause she doesn't die, she's generally done enough on her own for what that CP could have helped on.
alextroy wrote: Well, I guess you have to decide if that 2 CP spent on the detachment is better spent on something else and instead bring the Brigade or adjust your list otherwise to keep the CP.
I can't really complain about players needing to make strategic decisions like that.
Yep, and I’m not complaining about how many CP I take, my question was how many detachments are people taking to get all their tools in; and I added the comment that taking more detachments meant less CP, not that I was “starting with low CP”, which would be obvious to most.
I take one battalion in any list where I'm not mixing and matching Orders and I tend to mix and match orders a lot less now. If I AM mixing orders I try to take a patrol wherever possible(bloody rose as secondary HAS to be vanguard). I spend 2 CP on 1 additional relic and a warlord trait.
I run out of CP turn 2 or 3 usually so I need the absolute max CP I can get. My warlord almost never dies (who's bothering to target down Celestine in 2020?) so I can't usually get martyrdom. If I'm running bloody rose that usually means transports so I take Righteous Rage and Beneficence with the option for Book, Surplice, or Blade depending on what my overall strategy is. If I'm running VH that usually means infantry so I take Indomitable and Book with options for Litanies or Surplice. AS can be either so it depends on the build. A vehicle heavy AS build post weapon buffs might not use ANY additional WT or relics and start the game with 12.
I find this sad on the turn 2 or 3 CP runout. I am usually out turn 3, but not usually turn 2. The roughest thing that hit us with the build out in the codex, is that souping the detachments seems intended, yet we now have significantly less CP overall. I was getting 12+ CP after stratagem expenditure in 8th that those 5ish missing CPs really drastically hurt us. I know we generate the 1 per now, but the option of dumping for early output is drastically reduced where we need it. Especially as we have 0 strats for defense (AS has a FNP strat, thats about it). Whereas most armies out there have something to protect. So we are very reliant on being an output based army with these CP to help swing during our turn. That cut of 5 has been hard to shift.
And I for one push Celestine in there, which is why I have better results at getting Martyrdom. S7 D2 swinging around on wings generally requires her to be dealt with in T3 by something bigger. And honestly, if I don't get the CP cause she doesn't die, she's generally done enough on her own for what that CP could have helped on.
I said as much when 9th first dropped, stating that CP drip fed over 5 turns is not the same as all the CP up front, especially for Sisters, which use a lot of CP up front (for relics / Strats and detachments) than other factions.
I tend to field 2 detachments (-2 CP), use pregame buffs (extra Tale/ 2x extra Relic/ extra WLT) for (-4CP) and 1CP for outflanking. So I start with 5CP plus 1 on my first turn. In 8th with all the same setup (less the outflank) I would start with 9 CP.
Is Sacred Rose basically a dead order? Wanted to run a themed War of the Roses army (Sacred and Bloody), but Sacred seems like you are hamstringing yourself. Large units are not optimal, overwatch has been clipped (although you do have that "5" miracle dice for a melta overwatch I guess). So it seems you are just looking at 5+ refund miracle dice. Relic and WT not great, nor stratagem (except maybe on 4 HB retributors after rule change). I guess I could still do a custom order around the white rose.
bullyboy wrote: Is Sacred Rose basically a dead order? Wanted to run a themed War of the Roses army (Sacred and Bloody), but Sacred seems like you are hamstringing yourself. Large units are not optimal, overwatch has been clipped (although you do have that "5" miracle dice for a melta overwatch I guess). So it seems you are just looking at 5+ refund miracle dice. Relic and WT not great, nor stratagem (except maybe on 4 HB retributors after rule change). I guess I could still do a custom order around the white rose.
If you're using Sacred Rose, it is entirely because you want to run a themed army and you don't care about whether it is hamstringing you competitively. They did not really have much of a competitive edge compared to VH and BR in 8th, and the changes in 9th edition definitely hurt them the most.
I do not think you will want to wait until the next codex to see how it goes. You can always just play them as whatever you want, even if you like the theming and paint scheme.
I got to thinking about the craziest list I could come up with and here it is, now wondering if it could actually work as competitive?
Patrol and Spearhead detachments, Valorous Heart
1995 pts
Celestine
Warlord Canoness, Beacon and Book- St Lucius
5 Battle Sisters, HB 2 Exorcists
3x 4 Mortifiers, HBs and flails
3x 4 Pengines, HFs and flails
10 CP to start
Sacred Rite- Divine Guidance
The basic tactic is Celestine and the 24 crazies advance / rampage up the field to charge anything that they can, the lone squad on an objective while the Exorcists roll back and forth on objectives and lending support to Celestine and those seeking glorious death. Miracle dice basically go to the exorcists to do their thing.
If this makes it into enemy lines it will absolutely obliterate anything it touches, and with the 7”/9” plus advance the lines should hit quickly before they can be thinned too much. If the enemy deploys way back then I’ve already pushed them off the objectives.
Secondaries:
Engage all Fronts
Grind them Down
Enemy- dependent
davidgr33n wrote: I got to thinking about the craziest list I could come up with and here it is, now wondering if it could actually work as competitive?
Patrol and Spearhead detachments, Valorous Heart
1995 pts
Celestine
Warlord Canoness, Beacon and Book- St Lucius
5 Battle Sisters, HB 2 Exorcists
3x 4 Mortifiers, HBs and flails
3x 4 Pengines, HFs and flails
10 CP to start
Sacred Rite- Divine Guidance
The basic tactic is Celestine and the 24 crazies advance / rampage up the field to charge anything that they can, the lone squad on an objective while the Exorcists roll back and forth on objectives and lending support to Celestine and those seeking glorious death. Miracle dice basically go to the exorcists to do their thing.
If this makes it into enemy lines it will absolutely obliterate anything it touches, and with the 7”/9” plus advance the lines should hit quickly before they can be thinned too much. If the enemy deploys way back then I’ve already pushed them off the objectives.
Secondaries:
Engage all Fronts
Grind them Down
Enemy- dependent
Is this do-able?
Celestine gives the 24 crazies a 6++, but otherwise that much dumped into them is a bit rough. Neither Morts nor Pengines get the benefit of the Rights, so your AP bonus is on base sisters(not doing much) and Exorcists (already -3, so -4 has limited uses to trigger invluns or is wasted). I'm not saying the idea isn' t interesting post update to the weaponry, but you've basically shoved 1320 points into 24 models that don't benefit from miracle dice, faith, or rights. I don't think its going to last long when nothing your army is built to better itself works with over half your units. Decent firepower on their side and that quickly dwindles. And having 1 obsec unit that sits back is going to get picked off in seconds from deepstrike T2 or LOS ignoring weaponry, meaning you're reliant on your trashcans to hold or primary. What you might find is against some armies you'll kill them, but the opponent will likely almost always win on points.
I hear you about synergies, but I figure at their points efficiency (24 crazies) I don’t need all the Rites, etc. The limited MD pool goes toward saves/ hits on my Exorcists or Celestine exclusively, the 24 HF + 24 HB on the crazies are enough saturation of firepower to be as OP if they were affected by Rites. Plus I have 10CP + 1 per turn to use should I need, which is more than most Sisters lists at this point.
Also, yes this list gives up 15 VP for Bring it Down, but that’s about all it gives up on Secondaries.
For objectives, sure, if a unit wants to deepstrike to take out a 5 model squad or puts LOS weapons on then no problem. Obviously I plan to leave depleted units of crazies in the backfield (preferably HB Mortifiers) and push the rest forward. The nice thing about Mortifiers in particular is that at 9” +d6” advance they’re rather fast.
Your point about opponents “decent firepower” is the only ponderable for me. The crazies are minimal 4+/6++/6+++ with T5/W5 so they won’t go down easy to small arms fire or even heavy Bolters. There’s 24 of them plus Celestine rushing to make contact and using terrain as possible to minimize LOS. Once in hand to hand its over. If my opponent pulls back so I don’t get to them then I’ve pushed them off objectives. Win.
Consider the foot print of all those walkers as well. Depending on your terrain it could Be a nightmare to Maneuver them around building and ruins. Seems decent enough but has its cons I guess. Looks like a blast to see that rush forward
davidgr33n wrote: I got to thinking about the craziest list I could come up with and here it is, now wondering if it could actually work as competitive?
Patrol and Spearhead detachments, Valorous Heart
1995 pts
10 CP to start
Think you have CP error. 12 CP to start and 3 CP for speared=9. Warlord doesn't refund spearhead so you need to have warlord in patrol det to have that as free.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skycapt44 wrote: Consider the foot print of all those walkers as well. Depending on your terrain it could Be a nightmare to Maneuver them around building and ruins. Seems decent enough but has its cons I guess. Looks like a blast to see that rush forward
Penitents would be good targets to put into stratagetic reserve. The speed advantage of mortifiers is irrelevant when you come out of reserve. So if you have trouble fitting in your DZ put mob or two into reserves.
davidgr33n wrote: I got to thinking about the craziest list I could come up with and here it is, now wondering if it could actually work as competitive?
Patrol and Spearhead detachments, Valorous Heart 1995 pts
Celestine Warlord Canoness, Beacon and Book- St Lucius 5 Battle Sisters, HB 2 Exorcists 3x 4 Mortifiers, HBs and flails 3x 4 Pengines, HFs and flails
10 CP to start Sacred Rite- Divine Guidance
The basic tactic is Celestine and the 24 crazies advance / rampage up the field to charge anything that they can, the lone squad on an objective while the Exorcists roll back and forth on objectives and lending support to Celestine and those seeking glorious death. Miracle dice basically go to the exorcists to do their thing. If this makes it into enemy lines it will absolutely obliterate anything it touches, and with the 7”/9” plus advance the lines should hit quickly before they can be thinned too much. If the enemy deploys way back then I’ve already pushed them off the objectives.
Secondaries: Engage all Fronts Grind them Down Enemy- dependent
Is this do-able?
What's the point of book and beacon? Why not just be Ebon Chalice and take their WLT and Iron Surplice for a tankier warlord that also gives you bonus CP? Or litanies to do more with MD? Not like the sisters or the small durability boost are going to outstrip d3 cp.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I've played two games of VH now, mostly infantry blobs with exorcist support and I have to say: It's decent, but until the new shooting profiles come through, it's both worse AND less fun than mono-bloody rose or mixed conviction lists are.
Once MM and HB get buffed, it'll be different but until then, yeah...it kinda just doesn't work.
Has anyone had success with Repentia out of SR and not carted via Rhino? Trying to gauge how much the rhino actually helps me since its footprint with 2 exos taking up the cover usually leave them open to some form of shooting T1. I've had rather bad luck lately on losing more of them to the exploding setup than people killing them directly. the 9" but wholly within 6" setup leads me to believe that the SR strat still gives them a good 30" of board state to work with on the edges and also a great mitigation against anything that deepstrikes in for beacon/homer. Just wondering if anyone has gone down this path with them yet in 9th.
Dragonbeef4Life wrote: Has anyone had success with Repentia out of SR and not carted via Rhino? Trying to gauge how much the rhino actually helps me since its footprint with 2 exos taking up the cover usually leave them open to some form of shooting T1. I've had rather bad luck lately on losing more of them to the exploding setup than people killing them directly. the 9" but wholly within 6" setup leads me to believe that the SR strat still gives them a good 30" of board state to work with on the edges and also a great mitigation against anything that deepstrikes in for beacon/homer. Just wondering if anyone has gone down this path with them yet in 9th.
Rhinos aren't necessary in my experience. Worse case, spend the CP to hide them in reserves until later in the game
New to sisters, most still have black primer. My fiancee' bought the collection box, extra squad of troops and Celestine for herself as an impulse buy but we can't afford an 7th army.
However we were recently gifted a Castellan and I was hoping to mix it for a decentish 1500 points.
Do you think it'll do any good? What could I add (later down the line) to it?
Keramory wrote: New to sisters, most still have black primer. My fiancee' bought the collection box, extra squad of troops and Celestine for herself as an impulse buy but we can't afford an 7th army.
However we were recently gifted a Castellan and I was hoping to mix it for a decentish 1500 points.
Do you think it'll do any good? What could I add (later down the line) to it?
It's a fine start. It's not going to be a top table army, but it'll all work.
What you want to add next will depend on how you paint/play them, but probably another battle sisters kit (build as 2x BSS/Doms or Celestian squad as you like), Exocist, Imagifier and Palatine are the most general recommendations I can give.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and Missionary/Preacher as well
Automatically Appended Next Post: Battle Sanctum might interest you too. Depending on how you feel about terrain
994 2 CP 2CP of the 6CP used and total is 994 points, not sure to blow the extra 6 points. Also, can you check if this list is legal for 9th ed.
The plan is to have a 6" bubble of 3+/4++ saves and ignore up to AP-2 with 8 multi-meltas shots per turn while celestian and friends can deal with cc. I believe starting game with 4CP allows me to start the 36" multi shots to wipe out any vehicles or monsters. Having 24 multimelta shots T1 (after blowing through 4 cherubs) is devastating at 36" with D6+1 damage. I think it should be enough to take down a knight T1.
I decided to ignore the vehicles because I didn't want to give opponent's AT a target without 4++ saves.
Confirm, that the cannoness can give retributor's re-rolls of 1s on its range damage right? I couldn't tell if attacks means just melee or also included range.
Also, would a hospitaler be good in this list and if yes, what should it replace?
There are a few problems with the list, purely from a build perspective:
kiron wrote: Trying a 1000 point army for incursion using 9th ed. rules and points for pure Valorous Hearts Order.
HQ:2
1 celestine-warlord-beacon of faith 170
2 gemina superior 36
2x power sword 10 Gemina come with Power Swords included in the 18 points per model
1 cannoness 50
litanies of faith 0
heroine in making-indomitable belief 0 1 CP power sword and rod of command 10 Rod of Office requires you to take a Power Sword and Plasma Pistol, so 15 points
Elite:3 You only get 2 elites choices in a Patrol Detachment
1 imagifier 40
venerated saint 0 1 CP
5 celestians 60
flamer 10 Flamers are 5 points, not 10
heavy flamer 15 Heavy Flamers are 10 points on Infantry, not 15
combi-flamer 10 Don't forget your free Chainsword
power sword 5
simalacrum 5
5 zephyrim 75
5x power sword 25
zephyrim pendant 5
Troops: 2
5 Battle Sister Squad 55 Don't forget your free Chainsword
5 Battle Sister Squad 55 Don't forget your free Chainsword
994 2 CP 2CP of the 6CP used and total is 994 points, not sure to blow the extra 6 points. Also, can you check if this list is legal for 9th ed.
The plan is to have a 6" bubble of 3+/4++ saves and ignore up to AP-2 with 8 multi-meltas shots per turn while celestian and friends can deal with cc. I believe starting game with 4CP allows me to start the 36" multi shots to wipe out any vehicles or monsters. Having 24 multimelta shots T1 (after blowing through 4 cherubs) is devastating at 36" with D6+1 damage. I think it should be enough to take down a knight T1.
I decided to ignore the vehicles because I didn't want to give opponent's AT a target without 4++ saves.
Confirm, that the cannoness can give retributor's re-rolls of 1s on its range damage right? I couldn't tell if attacks means just melee or also included range.
Also, would a hospitaler be good in this list and if yes, what should it replace?
The Canoness will give the Retributers Re-Roll Hit Rolls of 1, both ranged and melee.
alextroy wrote: There are a few problems with the list, purely from a build perspective:
kiron wrote: Trying a 1000 point army for incursion using 9th ed. rules and points for pure Valorous Hearts Order.
HQ:2
1 celestine-warlord-beacon of faith 170
2 gemina superior 36
2x power sword 10 Gemina come with Power Swords included in the 18 points per model
1 cannoness 50
litanies of faith 0
heroine in making-indomitable belief 0 1 CP power sword and rod of command 10 Rod of Office requires you to take a Power Sword and Plasma Pistol, so 15 points
Elite:3 You only get 2 elites choices in a Patrol Detachment
1 imagifier 40
venerated saint 0 1 CP
5 celestians 60
flamer 10 Flamers are 5 points, not 10
heavy flamer 15 Heavy Flamers are 10 points on Infantry, not 15
combi-flamer 10 Don't forget your free Chainsword
power sword 5
simalacrum 5
5 zephyrim 75
5x power sword 25
zephyrim pendant 5
Troops: 2
5 Battle Sister Squad 55 Don't forget your free Chainsword
5 Battle Sister Squad 55 Don't forget your free Chainsword
994 2 CP 2CP of the 6CP used and total is 994 points, not sure to blow the extra 6 points. Also, can you check if this list is legal for 9th ed.
The plan is to have a 6" bubble of 3+/4++ saves and ignore up to AP-2 with 8 multi-meltas shots per turn while celestian and friends can deal with cc. I believe starting game with 4CP allows me to start the 36" multi shots to wipe out any vehicles or monsters. Having 24 multimelta shots T1 (after blowing through 4 cherubs) is devastating at 36" with D6+1 damage. I think it should be enough to take down a knight T1.
I decided to ignore the vehicles because I didn't want to give opponent's AT a target without 4++ saves.
Confirm, that the cannoness can give retributor's re-rolls of 1s on its range damage right? I couldn't tell if attacks means just melee or also included range.
Also, would a hospitaler be good in this list and if yes, what should it replace?
The Canoness will give the Retributers Re-Roll Hit Rolls of 1, both ranged and melee.
Hey thanks for the tip, knew I made some errors. Looked like I was under by 26 points. Sorry, I meant to take a battalion detachment so I can get 0-6 elite choices and extra 3CP. I forgot to add another troop choice.
Order-Valorous Hearts
HQ:2
1 celestine 170
2 gemina superior 36
1 cannoness 50
warlord-beacon of faith 0
relic-litanies of faith 0
power sword, plasma pistol, and rod of command 15
Elite:3
1 imagifier 40
venerated saint 0 1 CP heroine in making-indomitable belief 0 1 CP open the reliquiaries-0 1CP
relic-book of st. lucius
5 celestians 60
chainsword 0
5 zephyrim 75
5x power sword 25
zephyrim pendant 5
999 3 CP I understand I get a +3 CP bonus for taking a battalion detachment, so I keep the starting 6CP plus 1CP for batteforged for all adepta sororitas. Problem is deciding which sacred rite would be ideal for this army.
kiron wrote: I understand I get a +3 CP bonus for taking a battalion detachment, so I keep the starting 6CP plus 1CP for batteforged for all adepta sororitas. Problem is deciding which sacred rite would be ideal for this army.
Detachments don't give bonus CP anymore. In a 1,000 point game you get 6 CP, but then you're spending 3 right away for Venerated Saint, Heroine in the Making, and an extra relic. So you will begin the game with 3 CP, and gain +1 CP for being battleforged at the start of each of your turns.
I’ve been crunching numbers and wondering why Mortifiers and Penitent Engines aren't seen as competitive. I realize auras set Sisters apart but those auras (in the form of characters) cost points AND limit freedom of movement.
If we compare a full 12 Mortifiers and 12 Penitent Engines, at 1320 points, is also 120 wounds. Interestingly enough, 1320 points of base Battle Sisters with no upgrades is 120 wounds, that’s 12 squads of 10 Sisters each.
But if we compare the differences we get:
Battle Sisters: 120w, 1320 points or 11 ppw, 120 bolters, 6M, T3 /3+ /6++
Pen/Morts: 120w, 1320 points or 11 ppw, 24 HB, 24 HF, 360 flail attacks, 7-9M, T5 /4+ /5+++ or 6+++
Sure, the “crazies” don’t get aura buffs, but I think they make up for it with increased T, FNP rolls, increased speed and high strength weapons, in addition not needing to be under some aura range, in addition to the added costs of those aura buff characters. (Note: Celestine does give them a 6++ but that’s a minor buff).
The crazies are excellent at countering hordes and T5 or less type units.
As an experiment I worked on a list that needs minimal buffs and where instead of a Bloody Rose detachment I just substitute in the “crazies” as my version of Bloody Rose. Instead I concentrated on VH with meltas to give me the high-end killing power I need for T6+.
Valorous Heart [6+++, Ignore AP-1 weapons]
Spearhead detachment (-3 CP)
Sacred Rite: Destroyed model makes one last attack on a 5+
To me this list is more points efficient, mobile, and resilient, and can toe the line vs both New-Marines as well as hordes. It easily gives up Bring it Down but I’m willing to give those 15VP for all the efficiencies it has.
Lammia wrote: Repentance Machines are definitely a competitive option, but there's a lot vehicles don't do, while giving max secondary points away
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus, there in an awkward spot where almost all optional weapons are worth shooting at them
I haven't found any decent lists that don't give up secondary kill objectives. Assassinate being the most common given how reliant this army is on its auras. Is there a good list acceptable to full on avoid giving up points on these kill secondaries, or is it more likely that we'll be giving up one anyway to ignore it and play your game on the table instead of in list building?
Lammia wrote: Repentance Machines are definitely a competitive option, but there's a lot vehicles don't do, while giving max secondary points away
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus, there in an awkward spot where almost all optional weapons are worth shooting at them
I haven't found any decent lists that don't give up secondary kill objectives. Assassinate being the most common given how reliant this army is on its auras. Is there a good list acceptable to full on avoid giving up points on these kill secondaries, or is it more likely that we'll be giving up one anyway to ignore it and play your game on the table instead of in list building?
The list building gane to play is, imo is the Guard approach to kill secondaries. I.e. you *could* take any of these, but which is going to score best over the game. As opposed to 'here's 15 VP for showing up.' A problem compounded by the fact that there are no weapons that are wasted by directing them at Pen. Engines/Mortifiers.
They also don't need any special rules because they don't benefit from any special rules, which seems like a bit of a waste...
Mortifiers don't look bad at all actually. They're reasonably cheap, have decent firepower with 6 HB shots each and a nice punch in combat. They also provide redundancy to the tanks, and are allowed in squadrons. I don't think they need lots of buffs to work.
I think I'd always consider them in a non bloody rose army as I wouldn't bring repentia outside the melee oriented order and arcoflagellants would be the only reasonable melee option in the entire codex to compete with those dreads.
Per WarCom, hand flamers are going up to 12" range along with flamers and heavy flamers. I still think inferno pistols are better, but Deadly Descent Seraphim with hand flamers just got a lot jucier.
Blackie wrote: Mortifiers don't look bad at all actually. They're reasonably cheap, have decent firepower with 6 HB shots each and a nice punch in combat. They also provide redundancy to the tanks, and are allowed in squadrons. I don't think they need lots of buffs to work.
I think I'd always consider them in a non bloody rose army as I wouldn't bring repentia outside the melee oriented order and arcoflagellants would be the only reasonable melee option in the entire codex to compete with those dreads.
Mortifiers are great, people just generally don't run mono sisters when repentia bombs plus marines have such strong synergy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lammia wrote: Repentance Machines are definitely a competitive option, but there's a lot vehicles don't do, while giving max secondary points away
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus, there in an awkward spot where almost all optional weapons are worth shooting at them
I pray they take bring it down. So long as they don't take assadsinate I'm golden.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
davidgr33n wrote: I’ve been crunching numbers and wondering why Mortifiers and Penitent Engines aren't seen as competitive. I realize auras set Sisters apart but those auras (in the form of characters) cost points AND limit freedom of movement.
If we compare a full 12 Mortifiers and 12 Penitent Engines, at 1320 points, is also 120 wounds. Interestingly enough, 1320 points of base Battle Sisters with no upgrades is 120 wounds, that’s 12 squads of 10 Sisters each.
But if we compare the differences we get:
Battle Sisters: 120w, 1320 points or 11 ppw, 120 bolters, 6M, T3 /3+ /6++
Pen/Morts: 120w, 1320 points or 11 ppw, 24 HB, 24 HF, 360 flail attacks, 7-9M, T5 /4+ /5+++ or 6+++
Sure, the “crazies” don’t get aura buffs, but I think they make up for it with increased T, FNP rolls, increased speed and high strength weapons, in addition not needing to be under some aura range, in addition to the added costs of those aura buff characters. (Note: Celestine does give them a 6++ but that’s a minor buff).
The crazies are excellent at countering hordes and T5 or less type units.
As an experiment I worked on a list that needs minimal buffs and where instead of a Bloody Rose detachment I just substitute in the “crazies” as my version of Bloody Rose. Instead I concentrated on VH with meltas to give me the high-end killing power I need for T6+.
Valorous Heart [6+++, Ignore AP-1 weapons]
Spearhead detachment (-3 CP)
Sacred Rite: Destroyed model makes one last attack on a 5+
To me this list is more points efficient, mobile, and resilient, and can toe the line vs both New-Marines as well as hordes. It easily gives up Bring it Down but I’m willing to give those 15VP for all the efficiencies it has.
I wouldn't take 4s of morties or pengines because at that point you're risking attrition losses which can be brutal.
Taikishi wrote: Per WarCom, hand flamers are going up to 12" range along with flamers and heavy flamers. I still think inferno pistols are better, but Deadly Descent Seraphim with hand flamers just got a lot jucier.
"Ahh, yeah!" You will finally get to shot both times with Hand Flamers on Deadly Descent.
This also answers that MFM question of "why are Hand Flamers 5 points?".
Blackie wrote: Mortifiers don't look bad at all actually. They're reasonably cheap, have decent firepower with 6 HB shots each and a nice punch in combat. They also provide redundancy to the tanks, and are allowed in squadrons. I don't think they need lots of buffs to work.
I think I'd always consider them in a non bloody rose army as I wouldn't bring repentia outside the melee oriented order and arcoflagellants would be the only reasonable melee option in the entire codex to compete with those dreads.
Mortifiers are great, people just generally don't run mono sisters when repentia bombs plus marines have such strong synergy.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lammia wrote: Repentance Machines are definitely a competitive option, but there's a lot vehicles don't do, while giving max secondary points away
Automatically Appended Next Post: Plus, there in an awkward spot where almost all optional weapons are worth shooting at them
I pray they take bring it down. So long as they don't take assadsinate I'm golden.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
davidgr33n wrote: I’ve been crunching numbers and wondering why Mortifiers and Penitent Engines aren't seen as competitive. I realize auras set Sisters apart but those auras (in the form of characters) cost points AND limit freedom of movement.
If we compare a full 12 Mortifiers and 12 Penitent Engines, at 1320 points, is also 120 wounds. Interestingly enough, 1320 points of base Battle Sisters with no upgrades is 120 wounds, that’s 12 squads of 10 Sisters each.
But if we compare the differences we get:
Battle Sisters: 120w, 1320 points or 11 ppw, 120 bolters, 6M, T3 /3+ /6++
Pen/Morts: 120w, 1320 points or 11 ppw, 24 HB, 24 HF, 360 flail attacks, 7-9M, T5 /4+ /5+++ or 6+++
Sure, the “crazies” don’t get aura buffs, but I think they make up for it with increased T, FNP rolls, increased speed and high strength weapons, in addition not needing to be under some aura range, in addition to the added costs of those aura buff characters. (Note: Celestine does give them a 6++ but that’s a minor buff).
The crazies are excellent at countering hordes and T5 or less type units.
As an experiment I worked on a list that needs minimal buffs and where instead of a Bloody Rose detachment I just substitute in the “crazies” as my version of Bloody Rose. Instead I concentrated on VH with meltas to give me the high-end killing power I need for T6+.
Valorous Heart [6+++, Ignore AP-1 weapons]
Spearhead detachment (-3 CP)
Sacred Rite: Destroyed model makes one last attack on a 5+
To me this list is more points efficient, mobile, and resilient, and can toe the line vs both New-Marines as well as hordes. It easily gives up Bring it Down but I’m willing to give those 15VP for all the efficiencies it has.
I wouldn't take 4s of morties or pengines because at that point you're risking attrition losses which can be brutal.
What attrition losses, the whole army has 14 units which is much less than most Sister builds, in addition thats 20x T5 /4++/5+++ wounds you’d have to chew through before killing one unit.
And if you’re referring to morale, the opponent would have to kill 3 and stop there, then I’d have to roll a 6 to lose that model. On the off chance they do stop at 3 and it’s a critical model I’ll just use the Insane Bravery stratagem.
Also for rites, do we have to post our rites with our army list or can we declare it after we see our opponent's army? Same question for imagifier?
Also for BR, do we run MSUBSS or 10-15 sized ones?
Also, should we run rhinos or immolaters carrying 6 retributers with 4x MM and combi-melta?
Also is celestine worth the points? I feel like she is just a glorified babysitter for her aura most of the time.
Also, should we just take 1 brigage or a combination of battalion and patrol for detachments? I feel we burn 3 CP's just from our list (relic, heroine and veteran strategums) before battle. Burning more CP's seem risky especially when you need to use seraphim and retributor strategums constantly.
kiron wrote: So which secondaries are generally best for us?
Also for rites, do we have to post our rites with our army list or can we declare it after we see our opponent's army? Same question for imagifier?
Also for BR, do we run MSUBSS or 10-15 sized ones?
Also, should we run rhinos or immolaters carrying 6 retributers with 4x MM and combi-melta?
Also is celestine worth the points? I feel like she is just a glorified babysitter for her aura most of the time.
Also, should we just take 1 brigage or a combination of battalion and patrol for detachments? I feel we burn 3 CP's just from our list (relic, heroine and veteran strategums) before battle. Burning more CP's seem risky especially when you need to use seraphim and retributor strategums constantly.
I think my default secondaries will be Engage on all Fronts, Raise the Banner, and whatever destroy objective looks easiest to score well.
You don't choose or roll Sacred Rites until you know what your facing. You also get to know what you're facing before choosing Tale(s), but you generally plan what tale you'll use in list building; It's something that you tie into Order Conviction.
BR runs MSUBSS(more than any other order). Battle sisters are ObSec/action fodder for BR(and everyone else), save those points for more Elites.
Depends. But probably Rhino for that.
Saint C is notably overpriced, but still very pretty.
Detachments are a personal choice depending on how you're building. But we still *are* a CP hungry army.
So what has everyone been using for those had a battle sanctum.
I loaded 2 squads of 10 retributers on it within 6" of my cannoness and imagifier and celestian squad for VH order. I also kept Celestine behind the sanctum for counter charging. I put the sanctum smack right in the middle of the map as close as possible to middle objective while still in my deployment zone so my retributers are in range of everything. I keep a screen of battle sister squad in front to soak up melee and prevent charges. Have two floors helps retributors get firing view over my units to hit pretty much anywhere on the board given it's only 60"x44".
Furthermore, what's the rules for LOS for top level models over containers. from an angle they would seem to be able to see the enemy models hiding behind the container. Can they shoot or are they LOS blocked?
Also how does flyers charge the battle sanctum when all space is blocked?
How does melee work if all 3 floors are fully occupied, fight through each floor first? Does heroic intervention work for a character on a 2nd floor rushing to either first or third floor (physical space permitting or not? are the answers different?)
Also do you have to exactly match the battle sanctum kit or can you modify it a bit such that the floors have more/less room to put models?
Also, when is the battle sanctum set up? Had lots of arguments with some opponents. One stated it was before both sides chooses deployment sides. One stated it was before first player was chosen, was set up prior to objectives being placed, etc...
I was toying with the idea of splitting the multimeltas: instead of bringing 4 in a single retributors squad, what about bringing just two (with 2 cherubs) and giving the other two to 10 man squads of battle sisters with a simulacrum imperialis?
This way eggs wouldn't be in the same basket, and multimeltas in the battle sisters squads can benefit from the banners. If I also keep a cheap canoness to the back field with a 9'' inch bubble they could even re-roll 1s. That canoness wouldn't be a bad choice since it can give the aura to a couple of Exorcists and a couple of max squads of sisters but it would be also the model with Beacon of Faith and Litanies of Faith, on the board since turn 1.
In my current list I have Celestine with Beacon of Faith and a canoness with Beneficence inside a tank while Litanies is on an Imagifier also inside a tank, with repentias. I would drop Celestine to add that second canoness.
Also for rites, do we have to post our rites with our army list or can we declare it after we see our opponent's army? Same question for imagifier?
Hand of the Emperor is the go-to for Bloody Rose, eventually also The Passion could be good. I'd go for Diving Guidance for more shooting oriented lists.
Imagifier with Tale of the Warrior if she's supporting Repentias or Tale of the Stoic if she's buffing footslogging Battle sisters and all their specialist equivalents. I would take both Litanies by using the stratagem if the army is Bloody Rose, I have some sort of castle and I'm keeping a squad of Repentias near it.
Also, when is the battle sanctum set up? Had lots of arguments with some opponents. One stated it was before both sides chooses deployment sides. One stated it was before first player was chosen, was set up prior to objectives being placed, etc...
It's deployed with the rest of your army, as part of your army. It can't be set up in reserves though.
Blackie wrote: I was toying with the idea of splitting the multimeltas: instead of bringing 4 in a single retributors squad, what about bringing just two (with 2 cherubs) and giving the other two to 10 man squads of battle sisters with a simulacrum imperialis?
This way eggs wouldn't be in the same basket, and multimeltas in the battle sisters squads can benefit from the banners. If I also keep a cheap canoness to the back field with a 9'' inch bubble they could even re-roll 1s. That canoness wouldn't be a bad choice since it can give the aura to a couple of Exorcists and a couple of max squads of sisters but it would be also the model with Beacon of Faith and Litanies of Faith, on the board since turn 1.
In my current list I have Celestine with Beacon of Faith and a canoness with Beneficence inside a tank while Litanies is on an Imagifier also inside a tank, with repentias. I would drop Celestine to add that second canoness.
Also for rites, do we have to post our rites with our army list or can we declare it after we see our opponent's army? Same question for imagifier?
Hand of the Emperor is the go-to for Bloody Rose, eventually also The Passion could be good. I'd go for Diving Guidance for more shooting oriented lists.
Imagifier with Tale of the Warrior if she's supporting Repentias or Tale of the Stoic if she's buffing footslogging Battle sisters and all their specialist equivalents. I would take both Litanies by using the stratagem if the army is Bloody Rose, I have some sort of castle and I'm keeping a squad of Repentias near it.
I personally find hand to be overrated, ESPECIALLY if you have decent MD generation tools. You should be guaranteeing the majority of charges anyway. The passion on the otherhand has been consistently amazing for me.
kiron wrote: Furthermore, what's the rules for LOS for top level models over containers. from an angle they would seem to be able to see the enemy models hiding behind the container. Can they shoot or are they LOS blocked?
if i'm understanding the questions, you're asking if models on containers can shoot models they still see behind the container? Yes, as true line of sight to any part of the model still would drive the ability to shoot it in that scenario, so they should be able to shoot them.
kiron wrote: Also how does flyers charge the battle sanctum when all space is blocked?
The battle sanctum is an area terrain piece once placed. it cannot itself be charged. it is also only breachable, so the only models able to move thru it are infantry, beasts, and swarms. So it would have to charge the models in the sanctum from the open area in which case regular rules apply. If they are charging onto the higher levels, they need to have the charge distance to make it up within 5" vertically to reach them since fly does not assist height in charges any longer.
kiron wrote: How does melee work if all 3 floors are fully occupied, fight through each floor first? Does heroic intervention work for a character on a 2nd floor rushing to either first or third floor (physical space permitting or not? are the answers different?)
Your range is 3" horizontally and 5" vertically. any target is eligible as it is within engagement range of that. Keep in mind, declared charge targets still need to be declared in order to successfully make the charge putting them in place with multi-level models. Heroic intervention works the same way as normal, as it requires you to be within the 3"x5" bubble to move. Assuming you're in the 3" horizontally, the 2nd floor would allow you to be within 5" of both bottom and top floor. A reminder that while the vertical space allows melee combat, you still must have true line of sight if you wish to shoot pistols at targets engaged on different floors with the 5" height.
kiron wrote: Also do you have to exactly match the battle sanctum kit or can you modify it a bit such that the floors have more/less room to put models?
You cannot model for advantage, so it must match the kit to be match eligible as the model. The one thing the kit does not actually stipulate is exactly where the angel statue goes as it is depicted in various places both on and around the sanctum. Discuss with your opponent or TO if there are specific way of putting this in place. For my personal play with it, I either put it on the top floor if I need the ground space to meet the setup requirement, or I place it within 6" of the walls so it is still near the main building like a statue would be.
Blackie wrote: I was toying with the idea of splitting the multimeltas: instead of bringing 4 in a single retributors squad, what about bringing just two (with 2 cherubs) and giving the other two to 10 man squads of battle sisters with a simulacrum imperialis?
This way eggs wouldn't be in the same basket, and multimeltas in the battle sisters squads can benefit from the banners. If I also keep a cheap canoness to the back field with a 9'' inch bubble they could even re-roll 1s. That canoness wouldn't be a bad choice since it can give the aura to a couple of Exorcists and a couple of max squads of sisters but it would be also the model with Beacon of Faith and Litanies of Faith, on the board since turn 1.
In my current list I have Celestine with Beacon of Faith and a canoness with Beneficence inside a tank while Litanies is on an Imagifier also inside a tank, with repentias. I would drop Celestine to add that second canoness.
Also for rites, do we have to post our rites with our army list or can we declare it after we see our opponent's army? Same question for imagifier?
Hand of the Emperor is the go-to for Bloody Rose, eventually also The Passion could be good. I'd go for Diving Guidance for more shooting oriented lists.
Imagifier with Tale of the Warrior if she's supporting Repentias or Tale of the Stoic if she's buffing footslogging Battle sisters and all their specialist equivalents. I would take both Litanies by using the stratagem if the army is Bloody Rose, I have some sort of castle and I'm keeping a squad of Repentias near it.
I personally find hand to be overrated, ESPECIALLY if you have decent MD generation tools. You should be guaranteeing the majority of charges anyway. The passion on the otherhand has been consistently amazing for me.
I'm torn here. I have seen Hand make amazing play against me on a mirror match: 6"+7" advance +13" charge was used on me turn one (yes, they had amazing miracle dice). but that was a 26" movement charge T1 with their repentia when i thought i was safe slightly behind the line. Now, are you always going to get that? 99% no. But that +1" in both adv and charge does add up for a lot of mobility when you need to burst move T1 into cover and then charge out T2 even without such great miracle dice. I have now played it a few times to great usage since it also helps Zeph drops with rerolls get that 8" they need, making you 66% likely to land the charge with reroll than the 46% without it. that 20% bonus is fairly significant. I'd say it depends on what you play and how effective the terrain is at allowing the charges. Without breachable, Hand goes way up in my opinion as you can only use the MD on limited units more than once per phase, and the fact that much of my army wants to be in melee usually means I like the additional 1".
But i do love the stopping power of Passion once you actually get into combat. Exploding 6s is devastating on repentia, canonesses, and soon to be Zeph with the power sword changes. If the board allows a more melee heavy movement that doesn't prohibit good charges, i agree with Erjak that i'd prefer Passion over hand if the terrain allows the easier charges. At that point, your rite is then relatively useless if you're able to make most charges successfully anyways.
In short, i think board state and what units you have play into which rite is more successful than just a default one or the other in list building.
You can't charge from 13" away without an ability that allows it (see: Jain-Zar). Page 19 of the core rules says you must be within 12" of the opposing unit to charge. Hand of the Emperor doesn't allow it, it just makes your odds of passing a 12" charge from 1 in 12 to 1 in 6; a charge of 13 or 14" is illegal despite being mathematically possible.
Taikishi wrote: You can't charge from 13" away without an ability that allows it (see: Jain-Zar). Page 19 of the core rules says you must be within 12" of the opposing unit to charge. Hand of the Emperor doesn't allow it, it just makes your odds of passing a 12" charge from 1 in 12 to 1 in 6; a charge of 13 or 14" is illegal despite being mathematically possible.
Yes, should have clarified. I was just shy of 1" behind the line to, what i thought, prevent the charge with great rolls or MD. The 13" movement is still allowed, but you just can't declare it outside of 12". I was just in 12", like 11.8, so the charge was legal. But he got most of his squad in with the additional 1" and 3" pile in when I thought myself safe. The fact is that the 7" advance made the 13" regular move possible for the 12" charge.
In a world of terrain that isn't breachable, that additional 1" charge, or if you adv + charge with holy rage strat, gives you a very effective boost to your BR.
New 40k player here. I just bought a painted sister army off Ebay for 860 pounds incl. shipping/import fee (feel a bit overpaid, but of well).
Yeah, i do not have time to paint with my job and being a new father (don't judge).
Not sure what I should build with it. I feel the engines are not that great given lack of other mech targets for AT. Is there enough models for a decent 2000 point list? After reading these posts and the codex, feels like it would be a VH foot slogging list with a BR detachment for flyers and repentia.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ooops, here is the link
After the weapons stats changes I'm very convinced of putting 1 unit of 10 x Retributors with 4 x MM in my lists, and I need an advice. What is the most optimal way to deploy them?
Inside a Rhino? Other vehicle? By foot? Strategic Reserves?
After the weapons stats changes I'm very convinced of putting 1 unit of 10 x Retributors with 4 x MM in my lists, and I need an advice. What is the most optimal way to deploy them?
Inside a Rhino? Other vehicle? By foot? Strategic Reserves?
Thanks in advance.
Reserves is expensive. If you're running them as a 10 model squad, foot is best
If you play VH they are ok on foot, with an Imagifier nearby to reduce AP against them even further and probably a canoness nearby for re-rollin 1s. Embarking them in a rhino is a solid alternative if you have multiple vehicles that are actually a threat like a couple of bloody rose transports full of repentias.
I'd skip strategic reserves, with a vehicle or the buffs from VH plus the extra bodies you should be able to save your MM if you go second.
Blackie wrote: If you play VH they are ok on foot, with an Imagifier nearby to reduce AP against them even further and probably a canoness nearby for re-rollin 1s. Embarking them in a rhino is a solid alternative if you have multiple vehicles that are actually a threat like a couple of bloody rose transports full of repentias.
I'd skip strategic reserves, with a vehicle or the buffs from VH plus the extra bodies you should be able to save your MM if you go second.
Teey should be hiding out of LoS t1 until the pop out with the and with the help of 2 Cherubs, melt something important. You could even try sticking a Hospitaller next to the bolters and keep them hidden in cover, so you can get Melta back for later...
Blackie wrote: If you play VH they are ok on foot, with an Imagifier nearby to reduce AP against them even further and probably a canoness nearby for re-rollin 1s. Embarking them in a rhino is a solid alternative if you have multiple vehicles that are actually a threat like a couple of bloody rose transports full of repentias.
I'd skip strategic reserves, with a vehicle or the buffs from VH plus the extra bodies you should be able to save your MM if you go second.
Teey should be hiding out of LoS t1 until the pop out with the and with the help of 2 Cherubs, melt something important. You could even try sticking a Hospitaller next to the bolters and keep them hidden in cover, so you can get Melta back for later...
If you're familiar enough with your opponent's army to guarantee that won't be seeing any significant AP-3, you should put them front and center in cover and taunt your opponent into shooting them. You have 6 wounds that don't matter (seven with a hospitaller near by) that's 36 WOUNDS they'd have to deal on average to have a meaningful impact on your army. Imagine they spent all of their Anti-infantry killing your 6 chaff models and left the majority of your foot troopers unhurt.
Blackie wrote: If you play VH they are ok on foot, with an Imagifier nearby to reduce AP against them even further and probably a canoness nearby for re-rollin 1s. Embarking them in a rhino is a solid alternative if you have multiple vehicles that are actually a threat like a couple of bloody rose transports full of repentias.
I'd skip strategic reserves, with a vehicle or the buffs from VH plus the extra bodies you should be able to save your MM if you go second.
Teey should be hiding out of LoS t1 until the pop out with the and with the help of 2 Cherubs, melt something important. You could even try sticking a Hospitaller next to the bolters and keep them hidden in cover, so you can get Melta back for later...
If you're familiar enough with your opponent's army to guarantee that won't be seeing any significant AP-3, you should put them front and center in cover and taunt your opponent into shooting them. You have 6 wounds that don't matter (seven with a hospitaller near by) that's 36 WOUNDS they'd have to deal on average to have a meaningful impact on your army. Imagine they spent all of their Anti-infantry killing your 6 chaff models and left the majority of your foot troopers unhurt.
Sure, I wouldn't risk the moral losses or the Blast temptation. But you could do that too.
The benefit, and where SR really shines with MM Rets, is that you have a threat coming from either board edge with a roughly 30" range from that board edge to shoot that can't be shot at at all until it comes on. That gives you basically most of the board in threat range to suddenly pull out 8 MM shots (sans cherubs), and as half range is 12", you can get within half immediately for the +2 dam. Toss in Storm, and you have a massive threat anywhere you want basically with a high likelihood of high damage. While SR is indeed more CP out the door, I do think it is well spent with them and you save points on the ablative girls not being needed if you don't want. There is a psychological element here to the fact that literally nothing on the board is safe from the edges and they'd have to play the middle/behind obs to edges to protect themselves. Its as much a way to play board control for 1 CP on them as it is ensuring they shoot.
Also a bit why our conversation a month ago on the MM Immolator coming out of reserves with the girls inside is also such a threat. SR is a fantastic way to play threats as much as board presence.
Are you sure you don't mean Argent Shroud? Sacred Rose never loses more than 1 model to morale, hits on 5s from overwatch, and gains a miracle die after an Act of Faith on a 5+. Argent Shroud can fire weapons after advancing as if they'd moved without advancing.
Hi guys, I was wondering about power axes on our superiors instead of power swords given bloody rose. The new axe gives +2 str for that sweet 3+ wounding normal marines, ork boyz and 4+ wounding gravis dudes. As Bloody Rose those axes are also -3.
Kithail wrote: Hi guys, I was wondering about power axes on our superiors instead of power swords given bloody rose. The new axe gives +2 str for that sweet 3+ wounding normal marines, ork boyz and 4+ wounding gravis dudes. As Bloody Rose those axes are also -3.
I don't think we can take power axes, they aren't listed in the current codex, though Power Mauls are going up to +3 str. Guessing Power Sword is still the superior option on Marines due to the +1 str and -3 ap.
Anyone see much of an impact with the auras change? Likely won't have Imagifiers babysitting Exorcists in the back anymore, and Canoness will take a hit since they won't benefit from their own or other auras; other than that, I think most of our "auras" all target specific units, so should leave us relatively unscathed.
3 SR4, AP-4 attacks with no other buffs averages 0.75 unsaved damage against T4, 3+. Almost 85% of your attacks deal between 0 and 1.5 unsaved damage.
3 S5, AP-3 attacks with no other buffs averages 0.84 unsaved damage against T4, 3+. Almost 81% of your attacks will deal between 0 and 1.6 unsaved damage.
3 S6, AP-2 attacks with no other buffs averages 0.67 unsaved damage against T4, 3+. 87% of those attacks will deal between 0 and 1.4 unsaved damage.
Basically, against standard Marines there's not much difference in the three weapons. You just have to decide if you want a 1.4% chance of 3 damage (power sword), a 2% chance of 3 damage (power axe), or a 1.1% chance of 3 damage (maul).
Archebius wrote: Anyone see much of an impact with the auras change? Likely won't have Imagifiers babysitting Exorcists in the back anymore, and Canoness will take a hit since they won't benefit from their own or other auras; other than that, I think most of our "auras" all target specific units, so should leave us relatively unscathed.
I think it will impact us a bit, actually. I see Celestine and/or IB moving to only do CORE and not buffing Zeph/Ser to the 4++. I see Preacher/Missionary moving to only CORE, again with Characters losing out when around the Repentia. I'm torn to think they do things with the Repentia themselves, but they really are VERY strong for 135 pts right now, and they'll likely have to do something to balance that out by either not allowing the aura's to affect them outside of the Superior. A bit garbage imo, but it is what is is for them.
The only real counter I see to my own arguement above is that we already limit the aura effects to the ORDER in most cases, which is much more than SMs or most factions did by just buffing everything near them since they didn't really mix chapters. So either the ORDER limit goes and we move to CORE, which might actually be a buff in disguise for us to a degree (imagifiers impacting most infantry would be nice rather than by ORDER), or maybe I'm just completely wrong and nothing really changes for us outside of Canoness not buffing herself, which honestly isn't the end of the world (not great). The CORE mechanic works when you have a LOT of various options to pick from that were just getting buffed from anything. When you're got 1 TROOP as it is now, that mechanic seems silly applying to Sisters as a whole. And given that our faith is fanatical, I'd still see an imagifer praying to protect Exos the same as the sisters. But likely, I agree that this is gone.
Okay, im not looking for a tournament level list but something more fluffy.
I want to add Sisters of battle to my Imperial knights army to make a 2000pts list, i definetly want St Celestine and i know what knights will be but what else to add?
Archebius wrote: Anyone see much of an impact with the auras change? Likely won't have Imagifiers babysitting Exorcists in the back anymore, and Canoness will take a hit since they won't benefit from their own or other auras; other than that, I think most of our "auras" all target specific units, so should leave us relatively unscathed.
I think it will impact us a bit, actually. I see Celestine and/or IB moving to only do CORE and not buffing Zeph/Ser to the 4++. I see Preacher/Missionary moving to only CORE, again with Characters losing out when around the Repentia. I'm torn to think they do things with the Repentia themselves, but they really are VERY strong for 135 pts right now, and they'll likely have to do something to balance that out by either not allowing the aura's to affect them outside of the Superior. A bit garbage imo, but it is what is is for them.
The only real counter I see to my own arguement above is that we already limit the aura effects to the ORDER in most cases, which is much more than SMs or most factions did by just buffing everything near them since they didn't really mix chapters. So either the ORDER limit goes and we move to CORE, which might actually be a buff in disguise for us to a degree (imagifiers impacting most infantry would be nice rather than by ORDER), or maybe I'm just completely wrong and nothing really changes for us outside of Canoness not buffing herself, which honestly isn't the end of the world (not great). The CORE mechanic works when you have a LOT of various options to pick from that were just getting buffed from anything. When you're got 1 TROOP as it is now, that mechanic seems silly applying to Sisters as a whole. And given that our faith is fanatical, I'd still see an imagifer praying to protect Exos the same as the sisters. But likely, I agree that this is gone.
I expect Sororitas units that are Characters or Vehicles to be core, finishing off any mech lists and ending my beatstick/buff bot debate w/ Canoness. It'll be a while before we get another Codex though, so I wouldn't worry too much yet.
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Araablane wrote: Okay, im not looking for a tournament level list but something more fluffy.
I want to add Sisters of battle to my Imperial knights army to make a 2000pts list, i definetly want St Celestine and i know what knights will be but what else to add?
Archebius wrote: Anyone see much of an impact with the auras change? Likely won't have Imagifiers babysitting Exorcists in the back anymore, and Canoness will take a hit since they won't benefit from their own or other auras; other than that, I think most of our "auras" all target specific units, so should leave us relatively unscathed.
I think it will impact us a bit, actually. I see Celestine and/or IB moving to only do CORE and not buffing Zeph/Ser to the 4++. I see Preacher/Missionary moving to only CORE, again with Characters losing out when around the Repentia. I'm torn to think they do things with the Repentia themselves, but they really are VERY strong for 135 pts right now, and they'll likely have to do something to balance that out by either not allowing the aura's to affect them outside of the Superior. A bit garbage imo, but it is what is is for them.
The only real counter I see to my own arguement above is that we already limit the aura effects to the ORDER in most cases, which is much more than SMs or most factions did by just buffing everything near them since they didn't really mix chapters. So either the ORDER limit goes and we move to CORE, which might actually be a buff in disguise for us to a degree (imagifiers impacting most infantry would be nice rather than by ORDER), or maybe I'm just completely wrong and nothing really changes for us outside of Canoness not buffing herself, which honestly isn't the end of the world (not great). The CORE mechanic works when you have a LOT of various options to pick from that were just getting buffed from anything. When you're got 1 TROOP as it is now, that mechanic seems silly applying to Sisters as a whole. And given that our faith is fanatical, I'd still see an imagifer praying to protect Exos the same as the sisters. But likely, I agree that this is gone.
Why wouldn't Zephyrim or Seraphim be CORE? If terminators are core basically all of our infantry are likely to be CORE. Almost everything in the army with boots on the ground is a battle sister with extra steps.
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Araablane wrote: Okay, im not looking for a tournament level list but something more fluffy.
I want to add Sisters of battle to my Imperial knights army to make a 2000pts list, i definetly want St Celestine and i know what knights will be but what else to add?
Honestly? You only have 320pts left and you're OoML. OoML functions by building small gains over time as their unit dies and leveraging the extra power from the +1 to hit, extra miracle dice, and Junith's reroll 1s. With only what? 600pts of your lists as SoB, you're best off with just as many battle sisters as you can fit for standing on objectives. Maybe an imagifier for Ap-1 but it's not really necessary.
Given the ridiculous number of ways to "buff one unit" to be quite good...Nd given how few units sisters have in comparison to marines etc... I just don't get how nerfing Sisters much makes sense. Repentia are cool, but rhino is mandatory or you probably dont take them? So I hear what people are saying, that they are cheap...but then I see what blood angels do with just 3 of the new bikers for 135 and its like: gimme a break! We need no help returning Repentia to shelves. Already took away str 8. They've sucked for a century. I really hope they don't screw them. Let us have our Riptide. Add a point per model or something if they feel that way but pleeeeease don't take away the basic way they work! We'll see.
Jancoran wrote: Given the ridiculous number of ways to "buff one unit" to be quite good...Nd given how few units sisters have in comparison to marines etc... I just don't get how nerfing Sisters much makes sense. Repentia are cool, but rhino is mandatory or you probably dont take them? So I hear what people are saying, that they are cheap...but then I see what blood angels do with just 3 of the new bikers for 135 and its like: gimme a break! We need no help returning Repentia to shelves. Already took away str 8. They've sucked for a century. I really hope they don't screw them. Let us have our Riptide. Add a point per model or something if they feel that way but pleeeeease don't take away the basic way they work! We'll see.
Repentia are generally considered superior to both blood angel and space wolf outriders, even accounting for the cost of the rhino.
Repentia also...don't...really use too many buffs? Other than priests which almost certainly not be changed over to core due to the fluff of DCA, Arcos, and Crusaders and Repentia superior are repentia specific as is. Imagifiers are irrelevant too them unless you're up against a lot of T6, They already give themselves full rerolls, to hit, their specific buff character gives them reroll charges and reroll 1s to wound, they usually go in vehicles or are outflanked so indomitable doesn't help them really, everything else is stratagems.
Repentia are being taken even unbuffed or with just a superior in very competitive lists, even if they DID lose the priest they'd still be amazingly good for their price. Hell, against most units in the game a unit of 9 unbuffed or just tear them down repentia are massively overkill. They average 33 wounds with tear it down against anything T5 3+ or worse. That's 16 intercessors or 8 SS vanguard vets (with the new profiles) with just tear. They're a little wonky with 3 wound models because of the flat 2 swords but the passion will usually make up for damage lost.
Repentia, in my experience are a worthwhile unit to put into reserves. That generally allows them to go after something valuable before getting quickly mowed down.
Anyone see much of an impact with the auras change? Likely won't have Imagifiers babysitting Exorcists in the back anymore, and Canoness will take a hit since they won't benefit from their own or other auras; other than that, I think most of our "auras" all target specific units, so should leave us relatively unscathed.
A bloody rose army won't care much about the changes though, just -1 or 2 hits in combat for the canoness basically.
Not all auras are also going to work only on CORE units, so far we only know that re-rolls have this limitation. GW's intention was to remove the tactic of keeping a captain in the backfield babysitting tanks. Auras like FNP or the ork KFF will continue to work on anything, so maybe even the Imagifier's aura could do it.
I think it will impact us a bit, actually. I see Celestine and/or IB moving to only do CORE and not buffing Zeph/Ser to the 4++. I see Preacher/Missionary moving to only CORE, again with Characters losing out when around the Repentia. I'm torn to think they do things with the Repentia themselves, but they really are VERY strong for 135 pts right now, and they'll likely have to do something to balance that out by either not allowing the aura's to affect them outside of the Superior.
I think Repentia and Zeph/Ser will likely be CORE units.
Repentia also...don't...really use too many buffs? Other than priests which almost certainly not be changed over to core due to the fluff of DCA, Arcos, and Crusaders and Repentia superior are repentia specific as is. Imagifiers are irrelevant too them unless you're up against a lot of T6, They already give themselves full rerolls, to hit, their specific buff character gives them reroll charges and reroll 1s to wound, they usually go in vehicles or are outflanked so indomitable doesn't help them really, everything else is stratagems.
Imagifier is far superior than a preacher. +1A doesn't matter that much but S8 means they can hit harder anything but T5 models (and T3 but no one will ever want Repentia clashing against T3 models).
Repentia also...don't...really use too many buffs? Other than priests which almost certainly not be changed over to core due to the fluff of DCA, Arcos, and Crusaders and Repentia superior are repentia specific as is. Imagifiers are irrelevant too them unless you're up against a lot of T6, They already give themselves full rerolls, to hit, their specific buff character gives them reroll charges and reroll 1s to wound, they usually go in vehicles or are outflanked so indomitable doesn't help them really, everything else is stratagems.
Imagifier is far superior than a preacher. +1A doesn't matter that much but S8 means they can hit harder anything but T5 models (and T3 but no one will ever want Repentia clashing against T3 models).
I dont want to be OML, i can use any as it wil be a custom color scheme like my knights have.
I only want Celestine and the three knights, thats it, rest is free for all because i know nothing about SoB.
This will be for the look of the army, not something competitive.
They changed it (back) to 3x2+1=7. (As opposed to (3+1)x2=8)
Is it in the 9th rulebook or in some FAQ?
Now the Imagifier is useful only for a single litany. Sad. And maybe just to have a model with Beacon and/or Litanies of Faith on the table as the canoness may be inside a vehicle or limited to 0-1 like SM captains.
Honest question: how do we think the new CORE rules effect 1. Commissars, and 2. Leadership and 3. Conscripts. I am betting Auras will not work on conscripts, and even then, I am betting the leadership of the Lord Commissar will only effect guard squads and not 'scripts.
I'm seeing a lot of list including only min troop units (5 x Battle Sisters). Anyone could clarify me why this change of tendency? No one cares about Obj. Secured?
They changed it (back) to 3x2+1=7. (As opposed to (3+1)x2=8)
Is it in the 9th rulebook or in some FAQ?
Now the Imagifier is useful only for a single litany. Sad. And maybe just to have a model with Beacon and/or Litanies of Faith on the table as the canoness may be inside a vehicle or limited to 0-1 like SM captains.
The rules for modifiers in the basic rules covers weapons. There is no more model vs weapon strength modifier difference.
As for the Imagifier, pumping Sisters to S4 and Powerswords to S5 is worthwhile in my book.
New 40k player here. I just bought a painted sister army off Ebay for 860 pounds incl. shipping/import fee (feel a bit overpaid, but of well).
Yeah, i do not have time to paint with my job and being a new father (don't judge).
Not sure what I should build with it. I feel the engines are not that great given lack of other mech targets for AT. Is there enough models for a decent 2000 point list? After reading these posts and the codex, feels like it would be a VH foot slogging list with a BR detachment for flyers and repentia.
Ooops, here is the link:
Link's dead for me - can you list out what you have?
VH and BR are a solid combination, though with the 9th edition rules, BR-only seems to be on the uptick.
alextroy wrote: Given there will not be a new AS codex before February 2023, how about we not tie up this thread with a CORE keyword theory debate?
Fixed.
I think its fair to say that such a change to the game is going to trigger some discussion. And everyone seems to think that virtually all of SoB are basically going to be CORE, which I both get their point of view and disagree with simply by way of the fact we have the Ministorum vs Sororitas split already. I don't think every Sororitas is going to be CORE by way of "its sisters" or all of the SM book would be CORE as "its SMs". And simply removing vehicles from it likely isn't the case or they'd have just indicated AURAs don't influence vehicles.
That said, I do agree that there isn't much use in speculating it in depth simply because we don't even have the SM or Necron books to see what they do with it there to compare against.
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kl1ff wrote: I'm seeing a lot of list including only min troop units (5 x Battle Sisters). Anyone could clarify me why this change of tendency? No one cares about Obj. Secured?
Sure its important to a degree, but you only need 1 to stop non obsec enemies from controlling it, so min still does the job. And against higher volume obsec opponents, you're girls are going to usually need support from other sources to maintain control of it, so min still does what we need by allowing points elsewhere. Truthfully, Sisters works virtually just as if not more effectively at MSU than most armies out there.
kl1ff wrote: I'm seeing a lot of list including only min troop units (5 x Battle Sisters). Anyone could clarify me why this change of tendency? No one cares about Obj. Secured?
Extra Battle sisters are a better use of the points. There's nothing we can do with 10 Sisters that we can't do with 2x5 sisters but the smaller squads are more tactically flexible.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nevermind... missed that it was already answered.
kl1ff wrote: I'm seeing a lot of list including only min troop units (5 x Battle Sisters). Anyone could clarify me why this change of tendency? No one cares about Obj. Secured?
Extra Battle sisters are a better use of the points. There's nothing we can do with 10 Sisters that we can't do with 2x5 sisters but the smaller squads are more tactically flexible.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nevermind... missed that it was already answered.
Also, when is the battle sanctum set up? Had lots of arguments with some opponents. One stated it was before both sides chooses deployment sides. One stated it was before first player was chosen, was set up prior to objectives being placed, etc...
It's deployed with the rest of your army, as part of your army. It can't be set up in reserves though.
Based on...what? It's SOB unit. It only becomes terrain when it's set up.
As crazy as it might sound outflanking sanctum is quite a thing and if your deployment zone is crowded can be only way to get it legally in. Albeit useless as you get MD turn 3 earliest.
Also, when is the battle sanctum set up? Had lots of arguments with some opponents. One stated it was before both sides chooses deployment sides. One stated it was before first player was chosen, was set up prior to objectives being placed, etc...
It's deployed with the rest of your army, as part of your army. It can't be set up in reserves though.
Based on...what? It's SOB unit. It only becomes terrain when it's set up.
As crazy as it might sound outflanking sanctum is quite a thing and if your deployment zone is crowded can be only way to get it legally in. Albeit useless as you get MD turn 3 earliest.
No, the Fortification FAQ rule they added to the Core rulebook indicates that Fortifications cannot be setup in Strategic Reserves. Lammia is correct. Here is what was added:
Page 247
Add the following sub-section:
FORTIFICATIONS
Units with the Fortifications Battlefield Role are terrain features
that are part of your army. Unless otherwise stated, when
setting Fortifications up on the battlefield, they cannot be set up
within 3" of any other terrain feature that is not part of its own
datasheet (excluding hills, page 260). If it is not possible to set up
a Fortification as a result, it cannot be deployed and counts as
having been destroyed. Fortifications can never be placed into
Strategic Reserves (pg 256).
If you're still doing that post those note, which was back in July, its not a legal move.
Araablane wrote: I dont want to be OML, i can use any as it wil be a custom color scheme like my knights have.
I only want Celestine and the three knights, thats it, rest is free for all because i know nothing about SoB.
This will be for the look of the army, not something competitive.
Well, with the points you have left. Boots of various forms and an Imagifier or some other support character and maybe a Canoness.
Makes sanctum even more of a risk. 11"x11" empty area in your dz is hardly sure thing.
Pointless limit. Hardly broken anyway and just makes faction terrain "just don't bother". Guess gw sold enough already zero sales don't bother
Yeah, its rough right now. They implemented it as the sanctum was being specifically used to chain terrain together and prevent anything but breachable moving thru it. I personally think its a bit of a piss on people having spent 120 bucks on it to turn around and say with 18 terrain peices on the board that you can't replace one of for it, that its now "considered destroyed" if it can't be placed. 55 pt risk isn't terrible, but it shouldn't just be a "can't fit, gone" mentality to it either.
98 Models Total Points and CP Cost 2000 -5CP resulting in 7 starting CP
So trying out foot slogging. So 4++/5+++ repentia do okay to take all the enemies fire. So gets 2 miracle dice per turn and start with 7 CP. Not sure if I should keep any retributors in strategic reserves, but they can march up with the army to get the re-rolls to hits and 4++ saves as they don't suffer -1 to hit for moving and shooting those MM. Almost 100 models, but 98 models should be large enough given its 17 MSU plus 4 HQ to get objectives.
Which Sacred Rite would help this list the most? Should I keep repentia or replace with something else? Are the celestians worth it for bodyguard duty?
98 Models Total Points and CP Cost 2000 -5CP resulting in 7 starting CP
So trying out foot slogging. So 4++/5+++ repentia do okay to take all the enemies fire. So gets 2 miracle dice per turn and start with 7 CP. Not sure if I should keep any retributors in strategic reserves, but they can march up with the army to get the re-rolls to hits and 4++ saves as they don't suffer -1 to hit for moving and shooting those MM. Almost 100 models, but 98 models should be large enough given its 17 MSU plus 4 HQ to get objectives.
Which Sacred Rite would help this list the most? Should I keep repentia or replace with something else? Are the celestians worth it for bodyguard duty?
It's better to summarize the units than to kick out a huge massive wall of text like that, makes it easier to read. Like putting 'bloody rose order' in every unit listing instead of just at the top clutters things up pretty badly.
Is it a brigade just for the 3rd canoness? Because that's not really worth it when going down to a battalion would let you take more Celestians instead of battle sisters. Retributors are probably better in reserves as min squads. I probably wouldn't take 3 squads regardless though. They're very resource intensive to the point where they're actually kind of anti-synergistic with themselves. Taking a squad of Mortifiers or even just switching one squad to heavy bolters would likely work better in the long run.
The biggest problem you've got is that you're incredibly immobile. Without VH's defensive bonuses and with only Repentia and some Canoness being able to kill things unbuffed, you're going to absolutely need to stay inside your bubbles to survive or kill anything. Any unit that doesn't have the imagifier's buff won't be able to kill anything (again, except the repentia and canoness) Anything that doesn't have the 4++ and immune to -1 will die instantly. Unfortunately that means you'll likely only be able to contest one objective at a time and you won't be able to react to your opponent's actions very quickly(having a single bubble in practice cuts between 2-3 inches of total movement including advances). The seraphim are useful for reaching out and touching something but in general they won't be able to clear anything but vehicles off of objectives.
My experience with 9th so far is that you generally want to be able to split your army into two competent halves and contest both sides of the board. A single blob is often too slow to contest primaries while simulataneously giving up secondaries like raise the banners and the table quarters one relatively easily. It's why I generally don't bother with the 4++ unless I'm running valorous heart and it's why I find transporting melee units to be significantly stronger than foot slog.
kl1ff wrote: I'm seeing a lot of list including only min troop units (5 x Battle Sisters). Anyone could clarify me why this change of tendency? No one cares about Obj. Secured?
Extra Battle sisters are a better use of the points. There's nothing we can do with 10 Sisters that we can't do with 2x5 sisters but the smaller squads are more tactically flexible.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Nevermind... missed that it was already answered.
Still a valid point!
One small quibble, even with the new coherency rules, 10 battle sisters can stretch A LOT farther and still be in range of aura buffs. Bigger squads help mitigate aura based builds naturally tendency to be extremely slow.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Honest question: how do we think the new CORE rules effect 1. Commissars, and 2. Leadership and 3. Conscripts. I am betting Auras will not work on conscripts, and even then, I am betting the leadership of the Lord Commissar will only effect guard squads and not 'scripts.
ERJAK wrote: It's why I generally don't bother with the 4++ unless I'm running valorous heart and it's why I find transporting melee units to be significantly stronger than foot slog.l.
Agreed, though I find myself feeling OoBR would have been better when running VH. I am very impressed with the new MMImmo's so far, not official as of yet but in house games Are you running any Repentia boxes?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I dropped out my second Exo and came up with the following list.
OoBR
Canoness- WL- Indomitable bp, ccw Canoness- IP and Beneficence
Canoness- IP and AB
4 x BSS- (5) Combi-melta 2xSB
4 x Immolator tw-MM, HvB
Repentia Sup
Imagifer- Tale of the Warrior
2 x Repentia- (8)
2 x Rhino, SB
2 x Seraphim- (5) tw-IP x 2
Exorcist- EML, HvB
Retributors- (5) HvB x 4
Looking to sit the Exo, Rets and WL in the back. BSS in Immo's swamp mid board obj's and Repentia bombs hide as best they can to go choppy as needed. Thoughts?
I’ve always liked your mech lists as they’re always dangerous and balanced. Too bad we don’t get to mech up in Repressors any more.
Why Indomitable instead of Beacon on your WL? Seems you’d get more benefit out of an extra MD for charges / EML rather than the +1 Inv sitting in the back that doesn’t even help the Exorcist.
What are the thoughts on a competitive list with mainly Ministorum units, meant to rush headlong and smash into the opponent and knock them off objectives from sheer number of attacks all over the board?
Why Indomitable instead of Beacon on your WL? Seems you’d get more benefit out of an extra MD for charges / EML rather than the +1 Inv sitting in the back that doesn’t even help the Exorcist.
Good point. Honestly probably included it out of habit. I do miss the Repressor even as I am converting my church tanks to have Immo turrets.
Sadly all of my 40k lately has been in the house with friends. Without a tourney to go to I am getting sloppy with things like that. Thanks again!
Niiru wrote: Are there any allies that are worth including in a sisters army (despite the costs of CP and loss of sacred rites) to fill any weaknesses?
Thematically iv always liked taking an Inquisitor (usually greyfax but sometimes the guy on the stompy throne), and an assassin, though now that would require 2 seperate detachments to do.
Didn't both inquisitor and assasin have rule that gives you one to detachment without even breaking rites etc? Or is there additional restriction if you want to field 1 of both?
tneva82 wrote: Didn't both inquisitor and assasin have rule that gives you one to detachment without even breaking rites etc? Or is there additional restriction if you want to field 1 of both?
they share the same special rule/keyword that only allows you to take 1 in a detachment without breaking, so if you take both an inquisitor and an assassin in the same detachment you break your detachment, so have to run 2 detachments if you want both... which is pretty gakky.
ERJAK wrote: It's why I generally don't bother with the 4++ unless I'm running valorous heart and it's why I find transporting melee units to be significantly stronger than foot slog.l.
Agreed, though I find myself feeling OoBR would have been better when running VH. I am very impressed with the new MMImmo's so far, not official as of yet but in house games Are you running any Repentia boxes?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I dropped out my second Exo and came up with the following list.
OoBR Canoness- WL- Indomitable bp, ccw Canoness- IP and Beneficence Canoness- IP and AB
4 x BSS- (5) Combi-melta 2xSB 4 x Immolator tw-MM, HvB
Repentia Sup Imagifer- Tale of the Warrior 2 x Repentia- (8) 2 x Rhino, SB
2 x Seraphim- (5) tw-IP x 2
Exorcist- EML, HvB Retributors- (5) HvB x 4
Looking to sit the Exo, Rets and WL in the back. BSS in Immo's swamp mid board obj's and Repentia bombs hide as best they can to go choppy as needed. Thoughts?
I haven't played with any of the NEW profiles yet but I've been doing BR lists with two sets of repentia in rhinos, one or two sets of Celestians, also in rhinos, and some Mortifiers and it's been incredibly successful (and a lot of fun) so far.
As for the list, the only thing I can see that I would change is finding some way to work a preacher in. They buff repentia a lot more than imagifiers do against anything that isn't T6 or T7. Though Canonesses benefit more from the imagifier (more base attacks means additional strength gets better as additional attacks get proportionally worse) Not sure what you'd cut for it though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niiru wrote: Are there any allies that are worth including in a sisters army (despite the costs of CP and loss of sacred rites) to fill any weaknesses?
there honestly aren't really any allies sisters can take that are significantly better than what sisters can take for themselves(At least while still having it be a sisters army with allies and not like...a marine army with 800pts of sisters in it). Especially for melee lists where The Passion is a pretty huge damage boost.
Sisters tend to be the allies you take to give yourself a cheap melee bomb that can guarantee its own charges.
Some suggestions after reading the last few pages.
Repentias should not be kept in reserve. Keep them on the center of your deployment zone, in a rhino, behind a ruin preferably so they cant be shot. They act a massive deterrent to anything your opponent does.
With a 1CP investment, to advance and charge, they can threaten anything with a 27 inch charge on their turn (assuming you have three 6s banked for act of faiths). Add 2 more inches to this if you have hand of the emperor as your sacred rite. Very few things are as reliable at getting to their target as they are. Having them on the table, where you need them, will give your opponent something to be worried about at all times.
Bloody Rose Celestians are also incredibly effective. I don't see them in too many lists, but they should be more present.
For 125 points you can get 10 of them and have a maul on your superior.
They synergize very well with a canoness and imagifier as they protect them from snipers and get seriously buffed by them in return. Add in a preacher for good measure.
Spend 3 CPs for Exceptional Proficiency and Tear Them Down and and they can bring down almost every standard infantry squads in the game, including plague marines. They get the added bonus of being much more resilient than repentias while being slightly cheaper. On the downside they cannot bring a knight down in a single turn, but they can still chip away at it pretty reliably.
Voldrak wrote: Some suggestions after reading the last few pages.
Repentias should not be kept in reserve. Keep them on the center of your deployment zone, in a rhino, behind a ruin preferably so they cant be shot. They act a massive deterrent to anything your opponent does.
With a 1CP investment, to advance and charge, they can threaten anything with a 27 inch charge on their turn (assuming you have three 6s banked for act of faiths). Add 2 more inches to this if you have hand of the emperor as your sacred rite. Very few things are as reliable at getting to their target as they are. Having them on the table, where you need them, will give your opponent something to be worried about at all times.
Bloody Rose Celestians are also incredibly effective. I don't see them in too many lists, but they should be more present.
For 125 points you can get 10 of them and have a maul on your superior.
They synergize very well with a canoness and imagifier as they protect them from snipers and get seriously buffed by them in return. Add in a preacher for good measure.
Spend 3 CPs for Exceptional Proficiency and Tear Them Down and and they can bring down almost every standard infantry squads in the game, including plague marines. They get the added bonus of being much more resilient than repentias while being slightly cheaper. On the downside they cannot bring a knight down in a single turn, but they can still chip away at it pretty reliably.
ERJAK wrote: It's why I generally don't bother with the 4++ unless I'm running valorous heart and it's why I find transporting melee units to be significantly stronger than foot slog.l.
Agreed, though I find myself feeling OoBR would have been better when running VH. I am very impressed with the new MMImmo's so far, not official as of yet but in house games Are you running any Repentia boxes?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I dropped out my second Exo and came up with the following list.
OoBR
Canoness- WL- Indomitable bp, ccw Canoness- IP and Beneficence
Canoness- IP and AB
4 x BSS- (5) Combi-melta 2xSB
4 x Immolator tw-MM, HvB
Repentia Sup
Imagifer- Tale of the Warrior
2 x Repentia- (8)
2 x Rhino, SB
2 x Seraphim- (5) tw-IP x 2
Exorcist- EML, HvB
Retributors- (5) HvB x 4
Looking to sit the Exo, Rets and WL in the back. BSS in Immo's swamp mid board obj's and Repentia bombs hide as best they can to go choppy as needed. Thoughts?
I haven't played with any of the NEW profiles yet but I've been doing BR lists with two sets of repentia in rhinos, one or two sets of Celestians, also in rhinos, and some Mortifiers and it's been incredibly successful (and a lot of fun) so far.
As for the list, the only thing I can see that I would change is finding some way to work a preacher in. They buff repentia a lot more than imagifiers do against anything that isn't T6 or T7. Though Canonesses benefit more from the imagifier (more base attacks means additional strength gets better as additional attacks get proportionally worse) Not sure what you'd cut for it though.
That's easy downgrade two of the Immolators from Twin MultiMeltas to Immolation Flamers or Twin Heavy Bolters frees up 40 points, enough to add a Preacher. It's not like the list isn't already swimming in melta attacks without two of 4 Immolators having them.
Triumph and sanctum and i have had that trick doable. Albeit sanctum died now so.
Tried repentia in reserve(plus another squad in rhino) yesterday. What they did give me was threat to backfield. Albeit didn't use optimally, rolled badly costing further 3 and had to sacrifice 4 for sake of 2 vp but...had i not had those in reserve 2 less vp.
Three 6s on Turn 1 is obviously difficult, but not impossible.
With the proper list you can generate 4 miracle dices at the beginning of the game. If you are going second, you will start with 5 and likely have 1 or 2 more by the time you get to your charge phase.
Litanies of Faith allows you to re-roll a dice and the Triumph also allows you to turn a 5 into another 6.
You are unlikely to charge out repentias on turn 1 unless your opponent deploys poorly or make some sort of mistake. While the option might still be there, they are a much better used to play mind games with your opponent and keeping them for turn 2 or 3. By then you will have the dices you need to get them where you want... hopefully, bad dice days happen to everybody unfortunately.
As for the list, the only thing I can see that I would change is finding some way to work a preacher in. They buff repentia a lot more than imagifiers do against anything that isn't T6 or T7. Though Canonesses benefit more from the imagifier (more base attacks means additional strength gets better as additional attacks get proportionally worse) Not sure what you'd cut for it though.
Drop one Repentia so the Preacher can ride as well. Drop one particular fiesty Immolator down from MM to IF?
Voldrak wrote: Three 6s on Turn 1 is obviously difficult, but not impossible.
With the proper list you can generate 4 miracle dices at the beginning of the game. If you are going second, you will start with 5 and likely have 1 or 2 more by the time you get to your charge phase.
Litanies of Faith allows you to re-roll a dice and the Triumph also allows you to turn a 5 into another 6.
You are unlikely to charge out repentias on turn 1 unless your opponent deploys poorly or make some sort of mistake. While the option might still be there, they are a much better used to play mind games with your opponent and keeping them for turn 2 or 3. By then you will have the dices you need to get them where you want... hopefully, bad dice days happen to everybody unfortunately.
Or you could play the poor persons game and put them in reserves.
I'm not saying don't do what you do, but there are multiple ways of playing Repentia and Rhinos aren't mandatory for them.
Heavy: 3
1 Exorcist-Exorcist Missile Launcher, Hunter Killer Missile, Heavy Bolter
1 Exorcist-Exorcist Missile Launcher, Hunter Killer Missile, Heavy Bolter
1 Exorcist-Exorcist Missile Launcher, Hunter Killer Missile, Heavy Bolter
2000 points, 8 Starting CP
One cannoness may need to sit back and babysit the 3 exorcists for the re-roll 1s. Other Cannoness and 3 elite characters will sit in transports. So 7 vehicles and total 64 models. I expect opponent to either take bring it down or assassinate secondary, whcih will suck, but can't do much. Hopefully with 8 CP, I can do lots of killing and ressurecting since there isn't too much CP outlets. Hopefully 3 exorcists is enough AT, while repentia can deal with hordes.
Heavy: 3
1 Exorcist-Exorcist Missile Launcher, Hunter Killer Missile, Heavy Bolter
1 Exorcist-Exorcist Missile Launcher, Hunter Killer Missile, Heavy Bolter
1 Exorcist-Exorcist Missile Launcher, Hunter Killer Missile, Heavy Bolter
2000 points, 8 Starting CP
One cannoness may need to sit back and babysit the 3 exorcists for the re-roll 1s. Other Cannoness and 3 elite characters will sit in transports. So 7 vehicles and total 64 models. I expect opponent to either take bring it down or assassinate secondary, whcih will suck, but can't do much. Hopefully with 8 CP, I can do lots of killing and ressurecting since there isn't too much CP outlets. Hopefully 3 exorcists is enough AT, while repentia can deal with hordes.
Why venerated saint? Archos are good with hordes too. Becon of Faith?
Heavy: 3
1 Exorcist-Exorcist Missile Launcher, Hunter Killer Missile, Heavy Bolter
1 Exorcist-Exorcist Missile Launcher, Hunter Killer Missile, Heavy Bolter
1 Exorcist-Exorcist Missile Launcher, Hunter Killer Missile, Heavy Bolter
2000 points, 8 Starting CP
One cannoness may need to sit back and babysit the 3 exorcists for the re-roll 1s. Other Cannoness and 3 elite characters will sit in transports. So 7 vehicles and total 64 models. I expect opponent to either take bring it down or assassinate secondary, whcih will suck, but can't do much. Hopefully with 8 CP, I can do lots of killing and ressurecting since there isn't too much CP outlets. Hopefully 3 exorcists is enough AT, while repentia can deal with hordes.
Why venerated saint? Archos are good with hordes too. Becon of Faith?
Sorry Celestine is warlord with Beacon of Faith. Archos replace what, celestians? Want the bodyguard rule when fighting gets thick and also want units to that can take advantage of order and faith bonuses.
List looks solid. I'd probably drop Celestine for a deepstriking min squad of seraphims with inferno pistols + plasma, a 4th min squad of troops and some special weapons to celestians (a couple of melta and a power weapon) which can re-roll all hits while within the canoness. Removing hunter killers or canonesses pistols if there aren't enough spared points. Babysitting canoness inherits Beacon from Celestine and could replace her blessed blade for a power sword in order to get a 9'' aura which might help with 3 tanks.
I'd also skip the second litany to the imagifier, leaving her with the +1S aura.
kiron wrote: Sorry Celestine is warlord with Beacon of Faith. Archos replace what, celestians? Want the bodyguard rule when fighting gets thick and also want units to that can take advantage of order and faith bonuses.
Honestly, I don't know what I'd drop for Archos. Maybe a few Repentia? It was more idea throwing for dealing with 1w hoards.
I've been wondering about an odd interaction between Order of our Martyred Lady's conviction and the spirit of the martyr sacred rite.
If a single model (eg exorcist) is destroyed, and you roll a 5+ for the rite, would it technically benefit from the +1 to hit, because now the unit has had a model destroyed, even if it hasn't been removed yet?
It's kinda iffy ruleswise, but I think it'd be really thematic and cool, albeit niche.
ArikTaranis wrote: I've been wondering about an odd interaction between Order of our Martyred Lady's conviction and the spirit of the martyr sacred rite.
If a single model (eg exorcist) is destroyed, and you roll a 5+ for the rite, would it technically benefit from the +1 to hit, because now the unit has had a model destroyed, even if it hasn't been removed yet?
It's kinda iffy ruleswise, but I think it'd be really thematic and cool, albeit niche.
Yes it works like that. The rules for the Rite says after the model has been destroyed BUT before it has been removed from the table. It is at this point that you roll.
The OoML conviction states that after a model from a unit has been destroyed, the unit gets the +1 to hit. It doesn’t specify that only the rest of the unit gets the +1 to hit bonus.
ArikTaranis wrote: I've been wondering about an odd interaction between Order of our Martyred Lady's conviction and the spirit of the martyr sacred rite.
If a single model (eg exorcist) is destroyed, and you roll a 5+ for the rite, would it technically benefit from the +1 to hit, because now the unit has had a model destroyed, even if it hasn't been removed yet?
It's kinda iffy ruleswise, but I think it'd be really thematic and cool, albeit niche.
I would say it would benefit from the +1 to hit. The wording is clear - you roll after the model is destroyed, but before it is removed from the battlefield.
The list validated several things I’ve been thinking-
1. mono Bloody Rose is perhaps our most competitive build
2. the fear of giving up Bring it Down due to vehicles is not a barrier to winning competitively. This list gave up fully 15 VP in secondaries and yet he won;
3. there were 9 Mortifiers - which have been relegated for the most part as not a competitive choice
4. only one squad of ObSec, since these are not our best choices
5. besides the lone BSS the only other non-melee oriented unit was a single squad of 9 Celestians
The list validated several things I’ve been thinking-
1. mono Bloody Rose is perhaps our most competitive build
2. the fear of giving up Bring it Down due to vehicles is not a barrier to winning competitively. This list gave up fully 15 VP in secondaries and yet he won;
3. there were 9 Mortifiers - which have been relegated for the most part as not a competitive choice
4. only one squad of ObSec, since these are not our best choices
5. besides the lone BSS the only other non-melee oriented unit was a single squad of 6 Celestians
Mass melee with fast units is a general recipe for success. I'm not surprised in that respect.
That said, I'm definitely surprised at the lack of obsec. But I guess looking back at my games, most objectives aren't contested to the point where obsec comes into play, so I guess that works, and if you just kill the enemy in their zone, they can't hold objectives.
That's a lot of assault power, but I have to question how they're holding their backfield objectives. With everything but the squad of BSS and the Celestians being essentially melee specialists, there doesn't seem like enough to hold down the fort in the back and prevent things like jumpboyz, scions, and anything space marine from showing up back there and taking away the backfield points.
2. the fear of giving up Bring it Down due to vehicles is not a barrier to winning competitively. This list gave up fully 15 VP in secondaries and yet he won;
Yeah, this is a misconception. Playing lots of medium-low armored vehicles guarantees 15 VP for the opponent but also allows to create very effective lists. I always play with tons of vehicles with my orks and I never got disappointed for that choice, even if my opponent always maxes out the Bring It Down secondary.
This list goes heavy on getting into assault. 24x T5/ W5 with 24 HBs and 24 HFs, and that’s not counting the Zephyrim and 22 Repentia with Missionary plus scary Canoness.
The list validated several things I’ve been thinking-
1. mono Bloody Rose is perhaps our most competitive build
2. the fear of giving up Bring it Down due to vehicles is not a barrier to winning competitively. This list gave up fully 15 VP in secondaries and yet he won;
3. there were 9 Mortifiers - which have been relegated for the most part as not a competitive choice
4. only one squad of ObSec, since these are not our best choices
5. besides the lone BSS the only other non-melee oriented unit was a single squad of 6 Celestians
Mass melee with fast units is a general recipe for success. I'm not surprised in that respect.
That said, I'm definitely surprised at the lack of obsec. But I guess looking back at my games, most objectives aren't contested to the point where obsec comes into play, so I guess that works, and if you just kill the enemy in their zone, they can't hold objectives.
That's a lot of assault power, but I have to question how they're holding their backfield objectives. With everything but the squad of BSS and the Celestians being essentially melee specialists, there doesn't seem like enough to hold down the fort in the back and prevent things like jumpboyz, scions, and anything space marine from showing up back there and taking away the backfield points.
1 Squad of Mortifiers/Pen. Engines in reserves and the Angelic Hosts was probably enough. I don't think people are thinking about attacking the back field enough
That said, I'm definitely surprised at the lack of obsec. But I guess looking back at my games, most objectives aren't contested to the point where obsec comes into play, so I guess that works, and if you just kill the enemy in their zone, they can't hold objectives.
That's a lot of assault power, but I have to question how they're holding their backfield objectives. With everything but the squad of BSS and the Celestians being essentially melee specialists, there doesn't seem like enough to hold down the fort in the back and prevent things like jumpboyz, scions, and anything space marine from showing up back there and taking away the backfield points.
In the end, the question isn't "how do you not give up backfield objectives?" The question is "can you max the primary and keep the opponent from doing the same?" You can let them take whatever objective they want if they can't get enough total.
That said, I'm definitely surprised at the lack of obsec. But I guess looking back at my games, most objectives aren't contested to the point where obsec comes into play, so I guess that works, and if you just kill the enemy in their zone, they can't hold objectives.
That's a lot of assault power, but I have to question how they're holding their backfield objectives. With everything but the squad of BSS and the Celestians being essentially melee specialists, there doesn't seem like enough to hold down the fort in the back and prevent things like jumpboyz, scions, and anything space marine from showing up back there and taking away the backfield points.
In the end, the question isn't "how do you not give up backfield objectives?" The question is "can you max the primary and keep the opponent from doing the same?" You can let them take whatever objective they want if they can't get enough total.
Losing control of your backfield is a good way to give away primary and secondary points like crazy though...
Errata is out. One relic upgrade and we get the new weapon profiles. No point increases...yet
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also in light of the lack of point changes for now here was a list I was thinking of running using the idea of bringing the minimal amount of troops possible by going patrol and spearhead.
Spoiler:
8CP, 1,999pts
Vanguard Detachment -3CP
Order: Bloody Rose
Open the Reliquaries
HQ Canoness
Triumph of Saint Katherine
Elites Celestian Squad
Celestian x 9 w/ Meltagun x1
- Celestian Superior w/ Chainsword
Celestian Squad
Celestian x 9 w/ Meltagun x1
- Celestian Superior w/ Chainsword
Voldrak wrote: Twin Heavy Bolters on Immolators have gone up to strength 6. Strange if interesting change.
Most likely an error and will be FAQd
No mention of Celestines’ flamer getting the range increase, so either another oversight by GW or she’s stuck with an 8” flamer
They already fixed the S6 and Celestine didn't really have a 'flamer' as such so it kind of makes sense.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: Errata is out. One relic upgrade and we get the new weapon profiles. No point increases...yet
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also in light of the lack of point changes for now here was a list I was thinking of running using the idea of bringing the minimal amount of troops possible by going patrol and spearhead.
Spoiler:
8CP, 1,999pts
Vanguard Detachment -3CP
Order: Bloody Rose
Open the Reliquaries
HQ Canoness
Triumph of Saint Katherine
Elites Celestian Squad
Celestian x 9 w/ Meltagun x1
- Celestian Superior w/ Chainsword
Celestian Squad
Celestian x 9 w/ Meltagun x1
- Celestian Superior w/ Chainsword
Elites Imagifier (Warlord) w/ Litanies of Faith, Beacon of Faith, and Tale of the Warrior
Troops
Battle Sister Squad x5
- Superior w/ Chainsword
Fast Attack
Seraphim Squad x5 w/ Inferno Pistols
Superior w/ Chainsword and Plasma Pistol
Heavy Support
Mortifiers x3
Retributor Squad x5 w/ Multi-Melta x4
Dedicated Transport
Immolator w/ Twin Multi-Melta
Personally I would drop one of the HB rets and a canoness to condense the whole thing down to a battalion and pick up more Seraphim. I also don't really understand the point of making the imagifier the warlord when you're just giving her Celestine's trait anyway. You're kinda condensing a lot of your buffing power into the same extremely fragile character.
Beacon of Faith generates miracle dice. You're thinking of Indomitable Belief.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You also wouldn't be creating room for Seraphim by condensing it to a battalion due to having to meet min. requirements. You'd need to pay for two more min squads and that'd leave you points for...a hospitaller I guess?
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: Beacon of Faith generates miracle dice. You're thinking of Indomitable Belief.
Beacon of Faith is Celestine's WL trait. She buffs invulns with Saintly Blessings, not Indomitable Belief; otherwise she wouldn't stack with another Indomitable Belief to get sisters to 4++.
Ah, I see. My mistake. Isn't it still better to have the warlord on the Imagifier that I will actively trying to be safe as opposed to the model that I'll be trying to position for aggressive action later on?
The increase in flamer range makes Holy Trinity a lot more appealing on dominions, although whether there's a use in that with the MM buff I'm not sure.
Commitz wrote: The increase in flamer range makes Holy Trinity a lot more appealing on dominions, although whether there's a use in that with the MM buff I'm not sure.
Combi-Flamer on the Superior in MM Retributors maybe? I don't know how often you'll be within 12 though unless you're putting in them in reinforcements or something.
Commitz wrote: The increase in flamer range makes Holy Trinity a lot more appealing on dominions, although whether there's a use in that with the MM buff I'm not sure.
Combi-Flamer on the Superior in MM Retributors maybe? I don't know how often you'll be within 12 though unless you're putting in them in reinforcements or something.
I think the option to trinity with multimeltas might be useful in a defensive role, just to ensure something dies if it's trying to get in your face.
Mostly I was wondering if holy trinity melta or flamer dominions might be useful, their extra move can get them quite far up the board when the terrain permits it but they have to compete with a blessed bolts dom squad.
In my mind, modern Dominions just exist as Storm Bolters for you to maybe use Blessed Bolts on early in the game to help efficiently kill some marines.
Agusto wrote: So the Death Cult Assassins didn't get the +1S improvement to their almost "power swords"?
I wasnt expecting them to since "death cult power blades" is not a weapon space marines have... but I was hoping. S5 would have helped alot to compensate for the fact their prime targets all went up to 2 wounds
That said, I'm definitely surprised at the lack of obsec. But I guess looking back at my games, most objectives aren't contested to the point where obsec comes into play, so I guess that works, and if you just kill the enemy in their zone, they can't hold objectives.
That's a lot of assault power, but I have to question how they're holding their backfield objectives. With everything but the squad of BSS and the Celestians being essentially melee specialists, there doesn't seem like enough to hold down the fort in the back and prevent things like jumpboyz, scions, and anything space marine from showing up back there and taking away the backfield points.
In the end, the question isn't "how do you not give up backfield objectives?" The question is "can you max the primary and keep the opponent from doing the same?" You can let them take whatever objective they want if they can't get enough total.
If you give up your home field objectives, odds are that they're going to get enough total since they're still also defending their native objectives with most of their army and are/should be re-contesting all their home objectives every turn. Even if they're pressured into their zone, doing the minimum to contest objectives, especially if you aren't obsec, isn't a tall order for them, and at best that leaves you with like 2-2 every turn.
Anyway, on the FAQ changes, my first draft list is:
Battalion: Bloody Rose:
Celestine - Beacon of Faith
Canoness - Beneficence
BSS BSS BSS Repentia x7
Repentia x7
Repentia x8
Mistress of Repentance
Imagifier - Tale of the Warrior, Heroine in the Making, Indomitable Belief
Seraphim - 2x Two Inferno Pistols
Seraphim - 2x Two Inferno Pistols
Rhino
Rhino
Rhino
Basically, the Immolators act like tanks until blown up, at which point the BSS debark and hold objectives. Arcos and the priest can be dropped off at any point for handling things like Ghaz and the Ladz using Trigger Word Extremis or just to join the Repentia in the face-charge.
Sgt.Sunshine wrote: Ah, I see. My mistake. Isn't it still better to have the warlord on the Imagifier that I will actively trying to be safe as opposed to the model that I'll be trying to position for aggressive action later on?
No. The imagifier is a high priority target, Celestine is a target of opportunity. Most of the time Celestine will survive a victorious game and even if she does die, it's usually turn 4 or turn 5. Even if they do try to target down Celestine, her get back up means you're almost always going to get at least 3 turns out of her unless you really biff your deployment.
Commitz wrote: The increase in flamer range makes Holy Trinity a lot more appealing on dominions, although whether there's a use in that with the MM buff I'm not sure.
Combi-Flamer on the Superior in MM Retributors maybe? I don't know how often you'll be within 12 though unless you're putting in them in reinforcements or something.
I think the option to trinity with multimeltas might be useful in a defensive role, just to ensure something dies if it's trying to get in your face.
Mostly I was wondering if holy trinity melta or flamer dominions might be useful, their extra move can get them quite far up the board when the terrain permits it but they have to compete with a blessed bolts dom squad.
The problem with Trinity is that it actually does dick-all extra damage. It's roughly equivalent to a CP reroll or a mediocre miracle dice vs just putting an additional meltagun into the squad. Add in everybody and their brother getting transhuman physiology and I still really can't see a place for Trinity.
I'm actually working on a comprehensive analysis of Holy Trinity vs other options for each of BSS, Seraphim, Dominions, and Retributors vs GEQ, MEQ, Rhino EQ, and Castellan w/ Ion Shields. It won't be ready for a few weeks, though, as it took me about 2.5 weeks just to get the preliminary tables set up including having to relearn how to do some of these things in Excel since I haven't used a number of these functions in almost 20 years.
ERJAK wrote: The problem with Trinity is that it actually does dick-all extra damage. It's roughly equivalent to a CP reroll or a mediocre miracle dice vs just putting an additional meltagun into the squad. Add in everybody and their brother getting transhuman physiology and I still really can't see a place for Trinity.
I've not run the numbers but wouldn't holy trinity actually have the most application in tackling transhuman? Considering it modifies our wound rolls, by my reckoning it effectively means you can still wound on a 3+ if you use it.
That use aside it does seem a bit lacklustre still. Blessed Bolt dominions are quite a bargain still, and more effective than any holy trinity combo, and Multi Meltas don't seem to need much help if you pop storm of retribution on them.
Speaking of, Storm of Retribution retributors can do some filthy damage numbers if they get within 18" before even factoring in miracle dice.
Taikishi wrote: I'm actually working on a comprehensive analysis of Holy Trinity vs other options for each of BSS, Seraphim, Dominions, and Retributors vs GEQ, MEQ, Rhino EQ, and Castellan w/ Ion Shields. It won't be ready for a few weeks, though, as it took me about 2.5 weeks just to get the preliminary tables set up including having to relearn how to do some of these things in Excel since I haven't used a number of these functions in almost 20 years.
Is it that hard? Against T7, Holy Trinity improves the mean damage dealt by 1.25, against T8 by 1.33.
An extra meltagun improves the expected damage by (# of weapons + 1)/(# of weapons), which for a unit of 4 meltaguns works out to be 1.25, for a unit of 3 meltaguns works out to be 1.33, for a unit of 2 meltaguns works out to be 1.5, and for a unit of 1 meltagun works out to be 2.
The only time Holy Trinity works out better than just buying an extra meltagun is if the unit was putting more than 4 melta shots downrange before you bought the flamer/extra meltagun. So it's exclusively more efficient on Retributors with Multimeltas
If you care about bolters or flamers, then it's 1.25 against T3, 1.33 against T4, and 1.5 against T5, and the same math applies
ERJAK wrote: The problem with Trinity is that it actually does dick-all extra damage. It's roughly equivalent to a CP reroll or a mediocre miracle dice vs just putting an additional meltagun into the squad. Add in everybody and their brother getting transhuman physiology and I still really can't see a place for Trinity.
I've not run the numbers but wouldn't holy trinity actually have the most application in tackling transhuman? Considering it modifies our wound rolls, by my reckoning it effectively means you can still wound on a 3+ if you use it.
That use aside it does seem a bit lacklustre still. Blessed Bolt dominions are quite a bargain still, and more effective than any holy trinity combo, and Multi Meltas don't seem to need much help if you pop storm of retribution on them.
Speaking of, Storm of Retribution retributors can do some filthy damage numbers if they get within 18" before even factoring in miracle dice.
WITH miracle dice they can guarantee kill a knight with 3 failed saves (assuming you have access to 3 5+ miracle dice and the triumph.) Which is a combo I want to do do rather desperately.
Taikishi wrote: I'm actually working on a comprehensive analysis of Holy Trinity vs other options for each of BSS, Seraphim, Dominions, and Retributors vs GEQ, MEQ, Rhino EQ, and Castellan w/ Ion Shields. It won't be ready for a few weeks, though, as it took me about 2.5 weeks just to get the preliminary tables set up including having to relearn how to do some of these things in Excel since I haven't used a number of these functions in almost 20 years.
Is it that hard? Against T7, Holy Trinity improves the mean damage dealt by 1.25, against T8 by 1.33.
An extra meltagun improves the expected damage by (# of weapons + 1)/(# of weapons), which for a unit of 4 meltaguns works out to be 1.25, for a unit of 3 meltaguns works out to be 1.33, for a unit of 2 meltaguns works out to be 1.5, and for a unit of 1 meltagun works out to be 2.
The only time Holy Trinity works out better than just buying an extra meltagun is if the unit was putting more than 4 melta shots downrange before you bought the flamer/extra meltagun. So it's exclusively more efficient on Retributors with Multimeltas
If you care about bolters or flamers, then it's 1.25 against T3, 1.33 against T4, and 1.5 against T5, and the same math applies
You misunderstand. This isn't just finding the averages; I'm simulating 5-figure squads and trying to find their normal distributions and the probability of damage ranges. I also have no special software to automate this, so I'm having to do a lot of legwork by hand, which means going back and correcting errors from typos as well, then running the data again.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Transhuman ignores modifiers, so you'd still wound on a 4+ even with Holy Trinity
It now also apparently only applies to Primaris.
Wait, really? That's definitely something.
I mean, I feel like Primaris will still be the go-to Marine Infantry/Bikes, but it'll certainly help against things like Thunderwolves and other Firstborn specialists (except for DA Inner Cricle since they have the Transhuman effect built in)
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Transhuman ignores modifiers, so you'd still wound on a 4+ even with Holy Trinity
It now also apparently only applies to Primaris.
And anything with inner circle, all the time.
Yeah, that is true too.
But I went up against one of those armies this weekend. They may be tough to take down, but they really do put a lot of faith in a small number of models.
Any recent experiences with arco flaggelants? I dig their models and their rules seem really solid. Are they worth including in addition to 2-3 units of repentia and if so how would you prefer to run them?
dominuschao wrote: Any recent experiences with arco flaggelants? I dig their models and their rules seem really solid. Are they worth including in addition to 2-3 units of repentia and if so how would you prefer to run them?
More Repentia are generally favoured by BR armies over Arcos, but I run 'em.
I've run them as a cheap, min squads. But I'm thinking that it's worth having a few extra bodies now
Cool thats what I was thinking. 2-3 units of 8 repentia- mechanized. And then maybe some cheap flagellants running around or in reserves to cause trouble. A larger squad looks to be decent too.
Dammit that's a good point. But that shifts the focus more to the flagellants then I'd like. Was thinking along the lines of a foot slogging option along with a unit of mortifiers and a larger one of penitent engines. Something like this..
2x8 repentia, rhinos
1x8 repentia, strategic reserves
3 mortifiers, flex deployment
4 penitent engines, central deployment
X flagellents, slogging. Ranging from multiple msu to full unit(s).
This backed up.by scions as a reactive force to drop in by DS or Valkyrie for anti tank or to deliver mortal wound shots.
dominuschao wrote: Dammit that's a good point. But that shifts the focus more to the flagellants then I'd like. Was thinking along the lines of a foot slogging option along with a unit of mortifiers and a larger one of penitent engines. Something like this..
2x8 repentia, rhinos
1x8 repentia, strategic reserves
3 mortifiers, flex deployment
4 penitent engines, central deployment
X flagellents, slogging. Ranging from multiple msu to full unit(s).
This backed up.by scions as a reactive force to drop in by DS or Valkyrie for anti tank or to deliver mortal wound shots.
That's a very melee/CQC heavy list...
Foot Flagellants are fine, but they become reactive units without the speed of a transport. It's something you'll have to experiment with to find a balance. Maybe make one of the Repentia squads smaller and share their ride? Or a MM Immolator with a couple of Arcos to make sure it doesn't get bogged down in GEqs?
Oh thats a good idea. Theres always been something very satisfying to me about dumping multiple threats out of rhinos.
Yea its pretty front loaded and I'm working on making it more so. The ranged detachment by comparison will be very focused and compact.
On that note I'm trying to dial in my characters. Right now I feel like I'll need double of each support character- SoF increaser, preacher, imagifier, repentia superior. Thats probably not the case but whats your thoughts if you had to skimp somewhere?
dominuschao wrote: Oh thats a good idea. Theres always been something very satisfying to me about dumping multiple threats out of rhinos.
Yea its pretty front loaded and I'm working on making it more so. The ranged detachment by comparison will be very focused and compact.
On that note I'm trying to dial in my characters. Right now I feel like I'll need double of each support character- SoF increaser, preacher, imagifier, repentia superior. Thats probably not the case but whats your thoughts if you had to skimp somewhere?
Repentia Superior are nice to have, but are often the first thing I cut, SoF increase is also nice to have but imo, unnecessary. Imagifiers are good but 7 strength isn't as good as 8 was. Priestly types are always welcome in a melee list and would probably be my priority for multiples.
Finally rebought my SoB army with all plastics! Still have a couple more boxes to go for extra units to have for alternative lists, but I'm excited to play sisters again.
dominuschao wrote: Oh thats a good idea. Theres always been something very satisfying to me about dumping multiple threats out of rhinos.
Yea its pretty front loaded and I'm working on making it more so. The ranged detachment by comparison will be very focused and compact.
On that note I'm trying to dial in my characters. Right now I feel like I'll need double of each support character- SoF increaser, preacher, imagifier, repentia superior. Thats probably not the case but whats your thoughts if you had to skimp somewhere?
Here's my advice:
You definitely don't need double characters. Your units won't be that dispersed, and to some degree do well on their own.
Shield of Faith increaser: are you running Celestine? If not, don't bother, if you are, together your Repentia are now 4++ so do it.
Preacher: this guy is for your arcoflagellants. You definitely want him if you're running a lot of Arcos, but the Repentia don't really need him.
Imagifier: +1S is pretty much essential for the Repentia to have any chance of killing tanks. Yeah, being S7 instead of S8 sucks, but you'd rather wound on 4's than on 5's.
Mistress: Nice to have, but mostly present again for helping Repentia kill tanks.
I would definitely not walk your arcos. If you're winning, no walking melee unit is going to make a contribution because they're too slow and behind the front. If they're reacting to being charged and you need them, either your Repentia are dead and you're probably losing, or you can dismount one of your Repentia sections to serve the same countercharge role. Neither can Heroically Intervene, so in either case conducting counter-charge duties with your Canoness or Celestine are really what you want to be doing.
Imagifier: +1S is pretty much essential for the Repentia to have any chance of killing tanks. Yeah, being S7 instead of S8 sucks, but you'd rather wound on 4's than on 5's.
This is also a good candidate for the Heroine in the Making : Indomitable Belief combo.
I definitely want to run celestine. She along with indomitable belief looks really strong for the repentia.
The main hang up right now is having my cake and eating it too so to speak.
So which detachment gets warlord- sisters or scions. If scions then sisters can go vanguard. (but I'll basically be throwing away my warlord each game due to the use of a tempest prime). I really want to limit power armoured units since I've played that out over the years.
Anyway if sisters have warlord then I need 2 patrols to almost fit what I want to run. And that leads me to..
miracle dice. Is this something I need to be focusing on actively generating (trait, reroll item etc) or just nice if I'm not warping my list to get them?
I'll post a list and link it if anyway is interested.
I definitely want to run celestine. She along with indomitable belief looks really strong for the repentia.
The main hang up right now is having my cake and eating it too so to speak.
So which detachment gets warlord- sisters or scions. If scions then sisters can go vanguard. (but I'll basically be throwing away my warlord each game due to the use of a tempest prime). I really want to limit power armoured units since I've played that out over the years.
Anyway if sisters have warlord then I need 2 patrols to almost fit what I want to run. And that leads me to..
miracle dice. Is this something I need to be focusing on actively generating (trait, reroll item etc) or just nice if I'm not warping my list to get them?
I'll post a list and link it if anyway is interested.
You can only use 1 per phase. Technically, even using a 3 to make a melta autohit is better than rolling, but really you want your 1/phase to go to something like a damage dice or a critical save where it has more impact.
So really, you want strong miracle dice more than you need more miracle dice. Generating more Miracle Dice can help with this, since after all rolling 2 dice is better than rolling 1 with a optional re-roll, and thanks to having both stratagem-based outflow for weak dice as well as just having more phases than dice generated you'll still have use for them, but even then using 15 3's to make hits isn't going to have nearly the same impact on the game as making an 11" charge, rolling a 6 for a meltagun to kill a 6(8) wound target, or making that invulnerable save against a destroyer laser.
Amishprn86 wrote: Quick question. for miracle dice and charges, if I use 1 MD i roll 1 charge dice only then? Or do I need to use 2 MD?
You can choose to use one or more of the dice from your Miracle dice pool instead of making a dice roll for a model or unit.
Generally speaking, and in most cases, you want to use as many dice as is necessary to guarantee the charge. If you need to make a 7" charge, and you have a 6 in your pool, then you're free to use only that 6 and roll the other dice like normal. If you only have a 3 and a 4, you'll probably want to be using both.
I was just making sure I can use 1 and then roll 1 dice. Its just odd to me as GW normally hates double rolls like that to be split or rr 1 dice, etc..
dominuschao wrote: Oh thats a good idea. Theres always been something very satisfying to me about dumping multiple threats out of rhinos.
Yea its pretty front loaded and I'm working on making it more so. The ranged detachment by comparison will be very focused and compact.
On that note I'm trying to dial in my characters. Right now I feel like I'll need double of each support character- SoF increaser, preacher, imagifier, repentia superior. Thats probably not the case but whats your thoughts if you had to skimp somewhere?
Here's my advice:
You definitely don't need double characters. Your units won't be that dispersed, and to some degree do well on their own.
Shield of Faith increaser: are you running Celestine? If not, don't bother, if you are, together your Repentia are now 4++ so do it.
Preacher: this guy is for your arcoflagellants. You definitely want him if you're running a lot of Arcos, but the Repentia don't really need him.
Imagifier: +1S is pretty much essential for the Repentia to have any chance of killing tanks. Yeah, being S7 instead of S8 sucks, but you'd rather wound on 4's than on 5's.
Mistress: Nice to have, but mostly present again for helping Repentia kill tanks.
I would definitely not walk your arcos. If you're winning, no walking melee unit is going to make a contribution because they're too slow and behind the front. If they're reacting to being charged and you need them, either your Repentia are dead and you're probably losing, or you can dismount one of your Repentia sections to serve the same countercharge role. Neither can Heroically Intervene, so in either case conducting counter-charge duties with your Canoness or Celestine are really what you want to be doing.
Disagree about imagifier. Not only is Tear them Down going to do most of the work there, even wounding on 5s a unit of repentia kill the ever loving feth out of most vehicles. 9 totally unbuffed repentia kill a rhino or take 13 wounds off of a T8 chassis vehicle. With Tear they leave a knight with 4 wounds, with tear and either a repentia superior or a preacher they overkill a knight on average.
Preacher is almost always better than the imagifier. The incredibly slight output boost you get vs T6 and T7 by having an imagifier instead of a preacher is nowhere near the absolutely 0 benefit you get against T3-5 and T8 compared to a preachers +1 attack always being useful.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Played a game thursday with a buddy using space wolves primaris on foot (with guest star 2 proxied melta stormwhatever primaris landspeeders).
My list was Argent Shroud with 5 immolators with MM, 2 with 4SB combi plas, dominions, 1 with 4MM rets with 2 cherubs and a simulacrum, 1 with 4HF rets with 2 cherubs, 1 with 5 arcos and a priest, 3 HB Flail mortifiers, Celestine, and Rod of Office Canoness. Rounding out was 3 squads of Battle sisters with SB and HB.
First of all, the new MM profile is ridiculous. The double shots is of course huge but the +2 damage is surprisingly crazy powerful. It was a huge boost to both of our melta shots. The heavy bolter change was extremely nice against 2 wound space marines but wasn't a huge deal overall.
I got first turn, charged forward with all the immos and disembarked the multimelta rets and start blasting. Had 3 outriders in melta range of the Rets and with Storm of Fire, they were immediately obliterated. I also killed a good chuck of his intercessors and couple of his aggressors. I DID forget to disembark my canoness AND to get my armorium cherub shots in so I missed out on quite a bit of damage but for the most part his ability to contest on his strong side was fairly crippled. Weak side he had one of the stormspeeders a squad of hellblasters and a squad of intercessors to my Celestine, 3 morties, and a immo with HF rets. Immo charged up and obliterated the speeder, with that gone nothing he had left could reasonable stand up to the morties without getting clobbered by celestine and the HF rets in return.
He made some traction in the later turns, eventually killing 4 out of 5 immolators(two auto explodes doing WORK), both squads of dominions and some other bits and bobs but the game ended 71-27 in my favor.
Secondaries were banners, engage, and assassinate, maxed banners and was only 3 short on engage but only scored 6 on assassinate due to only killing 2 of his 3 characters.
Mech Sisters are a solid choice again. The offensive power and mobility are excellent with the new profiles and Argent shroud. It is INCREDIBLY fragile though. If you don't go first you'd better have a 6 on your MD with a couple to spend on Moment of Grace or you'll be losing half of your vehicles per turn. Valorous heart wouldn't really help either due to the problem being Eradicators and other common high ApD6 damage shooting.
dominuschao wrote: Oh thats a good idea. Theres always been something very satisfying to me about dumping multiple threats out of rhinos.
Yea its pretty front loaded and I'm working on making it more so. The ranged detachment by comparison will be very focused and compact.
On that note I'm trying to dial in my characters. Right now I feel like I'll need double of each support character- SoF increaser, preacher, imagifier, repentia superior. Thats probably not the case but whats your thoughts if you had to skimp somewhere?
Here's my advice:
You definitely don't need double characters. Your units won't be that dispersed, and to some degree do well on their own.
Shield of Faith increaser: are you running Celestine? If not, don't bother, if you are, together your Repentia are now 4++ so do it.
Preacher: this guy is for your arcoflagellants. You definitely want him if you're running a lot of Arcos, but the Repentia don't really need him.
Imagifier: +1S is pretty much essential for the Repentia to have any chance of killing tanks. Yeah, being S7 instead of S8 sucks, but you'd rather wound on 4's than on 5's.
Mistress: Nice to have, but mostly present again for helping Repentia kill tanks.
I would definitely not walk your arcos. If you're winning, no walking melee unit is going to make a contribution because they're too slow and behind the front. If they're reacting to being charged and you need them, either your Repentia are dead and you're probably losing, or you can dismount one of your Repentia sections to serve the same countercharge role. Neither can Heroically Intervene, so in either case conducting counter-charge duties with your Canoness or Celestine are really what you want to be doing.
Disagree about imagifier. Not only is Tear them Down going to do most of the work there, even wounding on 5s a unit of repentia kill the ever loving feth out of most vehicles. 9 totally unbuffed repentia kill a rhino or take 13 wounds off of a T8 chassis vehicle. With Tear they leave a knight with 4 wounds, with tear and either a repentia superior or a preacher they overkill a knight on average.
Preacher is almost always better than the imagifier. The incredibly slight output boost you get vs T6 and T7 by having an imagifier instead of a preacher is nowhere near the absolutely 0 benefit you get against T3-5 and T8 compared to a preachers +1 attack always being useful.
I see what you're saying, but don't entirely agree with the premise.
The way I see it, is that I don't really care about improving my Repentia's effectiveness against T4 and T3 infantry. They are already "sufficiently effective" to destroy a space marine section without difficulty at almost any squad size.
Because I'm particularly concerned about the ability of my Repentia to destroy vehicle-grade targets, particularly in following turns after suffering casualties. The difference in effect is sufficiently drastic that an imagifier buffed squad requires 1 or 2 fewer repentia to destroy a vehicle depending on how sure you want to be of target destruction
Basically, if you only really need the buff character for one thing because you're already really good at something else, a significant increased to that one thing that comprises part of your primary mission is worth more than a lower increase with marginal increases in effectiveness against other targets.
I ran some quick math and the two look pretty close. For bloody rose repentia, against t7 no invulns were looking at this for each single repentia:
1.5 damage if solo;
2 damage with a priest;
2.25 damage with an imagifier;
4 damage within range of both;
5 damage with both and tear them down.
5.83 with everything plus repentia superior.
Thats per model.The imagifier can be replicated once by tear them down the priest cannot. Looking at this it seems good to have both with the imagifier being less mandatory. That said throwing some dice around I think I'd want both since we may want more than one unit that isn't fishing for 5s.
dominuschao wrote: I ran some quick math and the two look pretty close. For bloody rose repentia, against t7 no invulns were looking at this for each single repentia:
1.5 damage if solo;
2 damage with a priest;
2.25 damage with an imagifier;
4 damage within range of both;
5 damage with both and tear them down.
5.83 with everything plus repentia superior.
Thats per model.The imagifier can be replicated once by tear them down the priest cannot. Looking at this it seems good to have both with the imagifier being less mandatory. That said throwing some dice around I think I'd want both since we may want more than one unit that isn't fishing for 5s.
Against a T7 Sv3+ target:
The mean unsupported damage is 1.25 damage assessed per repentia with a standard deviation of 1.15.
The mean supported damage with a priest is 1.67 damage assessed per repentia with a standard deviation of 1.21.
The mean supported damage with an imagifier is 1.875 damage assessed per repential with a standard deviation of 1.40.
In order to have a generally acceptable 80% chance of destroying a average tank target, 8 imagifier supported repentia are required, 10 priest supported repentia are required, and 13 unsupported repentia.
You're free to pick either; I'll probably pick Imagifier over Priest but you're free to chose the opposite based on your needs. That said, I wouldn't take all of them. You don't really want to trend into the overkill region, that's inefficient.
with GW showing that power armor = +1 wound for marines (as the scout sergeant who is a full marine but not in power armor is 1 wound) do we think sisters are going to go up to 2 wounds each?
Personally I hope we stay at 1 wound but would that drastically change anything for our army? despite obviously the innevitable point increase that would hinder us in a world of so many d2+ weapons. (Repentia would stay at 1 wound)
warmaster21 wrote: with GW showing that power armor = +1 wound for marines (as the scout sergeant who is a full marine but not in power armor is 1 wound) do we think sisters are going to go up to 2 wounds each?
Personally I hope we stay at 1 wound but would that drastically change anything for our army? despite obviously the innevitable point increase that would hinder us in a world of so many d2+ weapons. (Repentia would stay at 1 wound)
Yeah, going to W2 would f*** everything up.
Also, GW isn't going to give Sisters a bonus wound, they said it's for Marines and the scout sergeant is almost certianly just an anomaly.
dominuschao wrote: Oh thats a good idea. Theres always been something very satisfying to me about dumping multiple threats out of rhinos.
Yea its pretty front loaded and I'm working on making it more so. The ranged detachment by comparison will be very focused and compact.
On that note I'm trying to dial in my characters. Right now I feel like I'll need double of each support character- SoF increaser, preacher, imagifier, repentia superior. Thats probably not the case but whats your thoughts if you had to skimp somewhere?
Here's my advice:
You definitely don't need double characters. Your units won't be that dispersed, and to some degree do well on their own.
Shield of Faith increaser: are you running Celestine? If not, don't bother, if you are, together your Repentia are now 4++ so do it.
Preacher: this guy is for your arcoflagellants. You definitely want him if you're running a lot of Arcos, but the Repentia don't really need him.
Imagifier: +1S is pretty much essential for the Repentia to have any chance of killing tanks. Yeah, being S7 instead of S8 sucks, but you'd rather wound on 4's than on 5's.
Mistress: Nice to have, but mostly present again for helping Repentia kill tanks.
I would definitely not walk your arcos. If you're winning, no walking melee unit is going to make a contribution because they're too slow and behind the front. If they're reacting to being charged and you need them, either your Repentia are dead and you're probably losing, or you can dismount one of your Repentia sections to serve the same countercharge role. Neither can Heroically Intervene, so in either case conducting counter-charge duties with your Canoness or Celestine are really what you want to be doing.
Disagree about imagifier. Not only is Tear them Down going to do most of the work there, even wounding on 5s a unit of repentia kill the ever loving feth out of most vehicles. 9 totally unbuffed repentia kill a rhino or take 13 wounds off of a T8 chassis vehicle. With Tear they leave a knight with 4 wounds, with tear and either a repentia superior or a preacher they overkill a knight on average.
Preacher is almost always better than the imagifier. The incredibly slight output boost you get vs T6 and T7 by having an imagifier instead of a preacher is nowhere near the absolutely 0 benefit you get against T3-5 and T8 compared to a preachers +1 attack always being useful.
I see what you're saying, but don't entirely agree with the premise.
The way I see it, is that I don't really care about improving my Repentia's effectiveness against T4 and T3 infantry. They are already "sufficiently effective" to destroy a space marine section without difficulty at almost any squad size.
Because I'm particularly concerned about the ability of my Repentia to destroy vehicle-grade targets, particularly in following turns after suffering casualties. The difference in effect is sufficiently drastic that an imagifier buffed squad requires 1 or 2 fewer repentia to destroy a vehicle depending on how sure you want to be of target destruction
Basically, if you only really need the buff character for one thing because you're already really good at something else, a significant increased to that one thing that comprises part of your primary mission is worth more than a lower increase with marginal increases in effectiveness against other targets.
The problem still ends up being that the difference between imagifier and preacher buffs for repentia ends up being a little over 2 wounds per squad on average against T7 and T6(imagifier's favor) while being 9 wounds per squad against T4 and T5 and 4.4 wounds per squad on T8(preachers favor). That means that over the course of a game, you would have to hit ONLY rhinos and stormspeeder equivalents for the imagifier to be better. If you had to hit one of the new primaris hover tanks, an exocrine, a squad of bikes, a squad of terminators, a squad of eradicators, a squad of skorpechs, a land raider, a squad of plague marines, a squad of regular marines, a knight, etc; the priest is better.
And honestly, with the changes to Meltas, you shouldn't really be using repentia to go after T6 and T7 targets anymore, they're much more efficient at decimating T5 and lower or using Tear them Down to kill T8 when a squad of MM rets or even a couple basic battle sister squads with MMs can pop 2+ rhinos per turn fairly reliably.
Also, with Eradicators kicking around the only people bringing significant numbers of T7 are...us in bloody rose transport lists. Most vehicles are on the shelf until eradicators take a nerf.
It depends on what T5 or lower models you're going against. Gravis or standard primaris dudes? Sure. 30 orks? Definitely not.
I'd rather use arcos for the anti infantry role, repentias are too squishy to rely to their max potential, they'll likely lose some models on the way and that buff from the Imagifier comes handy. Not to mention that the +1S also could affect other units like a Canoness, Celestine, Celestians or Zephyrims.
You may need both the +1S and Tear The Down to kill some armored unit.
Bringing tons of meltas is also not realistic. A squad of Retributors vanishes after one turn of shooting and Immolators aren't as effective. There's also the cost of the boxes to consider, just to have the basic 4 multimeltas on a single squad you need two boxes of Retributors, which are quite expensive. I honestly don't think I'll going to see more than 2-4 multimeltas in the majority of sisters lists around here.
Eradicators are a nemesis for vehicles but many armies will keep using vehicles, because it would still be the best option. Harlequins, Drukhari, Orks, etc all have light vehicles or monsters with T6 or T7 and access to invulns, among their best units, which are definitely going to show up regardless of the Eradicators' threat.
I also think the threat of Eradicators means folks are hell bent on countering them, which often means either screening to deny the effective placement of strategic reserves, or by ensuring they can't get within melta damage bonus range of your armour, making them a tad bit less capable.
Blackie wrote: It depends on what T5 or lower models you're going against. Gravis or standard primaris dudes? Sure. 30 orks? Definitely not.
I'd rather use arcos for the anti infantry role, repentias are too squishy to rely to their max potential, they'll likely lose some models on the way and that buff from the Imagifier comes handy. Not to mention that the +1S also could affect other units like a Canoness, Celestine, Celestians or Zephyrims.
You may need both the +1S and Tear The Down to kill some armored unit.
Bringing tons of meltas is also not realistic. A squad of Retributors vanishes after one turn of shooting and Immolators aren't as effective. There's also the cost of the boxes to consider, just to have the basic 4 multimeltas on a single squad you need two boxes of Retributors, which are quite expensive. I honestly don't think I'll going to see more than 2-4 multimeltas in the majority of sisters lists around here.
Eradicators are a nemesis for vehicles but many armies will keep using vehicles, because it would still be the best option. Harlequins, Drukhari, Orks, etc all have light vehicles or monsters with T6 or T7 and access to invulns, among their best units, which are definitely going to show up regardless of the Eradicators' threat.
A squad of repentia kill what...18 Boyz on the charge with a preacher? It's not an ideal target to go after, but it's one that might be necessary depending on the matchup/your opponent's actions; and when you're in a situation where you have no choice but to go in on a 30 drop of boyz, you'll be happy you passed on +1S for +1 attack.
Arcos are the same price as repentia and honestly, due to their low rend, end up doing the same or less damage as repentia against even the targets they want to go after. Repentia are just flat out better than arcos unless you're not running BR, not that arcos are bad, just that repentia are hilariously good. Neither unit has relevant durability. Even with 2 wounds it takes nothing to wipe out a unit of arcos.
Also, if you are using arcos(which again, are fine, just not as good as BR repentia), priests are WAY better because arcos ALSO benefit from them.
Rets are pretty damn sticky in any list that uses Indomitable belief and ESPECIALLY lists that mix in VH. Even when built as minimum they're HILARIOUSLY effective strategic reserve units, able to reliably wipe out pretty much any 2 no-invul vehicles on the drop. Even just slapping some on BSS squads is pretty deadly. Price is irrelevant if you're talking competitive theory. Tournament players will either fork over the cash or find a creative way around modeling issues. I plan on running at least 7-8 MM in my BR lists, with up to 12-16 being a possibility depending on how many Mortifiers I plan on running.
And while that's certainly true, that some armies will continue to use their T6 and T7 vehicles, a priest buffed unit of 9 repentia kills just about every single one of those units outright, exactly the same as an imagifier buffed unit. In fact, against a Ravager, it's almost exactly the same damage(18).
In the end I would recommend taking BOTH buffs and strategically applying them to where they are most useful. If you're running bloody rose there really isn't a reason not to considering how insanely beneficial both +1 attack and +1S are to ALL BR units. BUT if you have to take only one, the priest is more flexible and helps insulate against sub-optimal situations better.
Ancible wrote: I also think the threat of Eradicators means folks are hell bent on countering them, which often means either screening to deny the effective placement of strategic reserves, or by ensuring they can't get within melta damage bonus range of your armour, making them a tad bit less capable.
You say that, but 18 of them is still good enough even against hordes, when you are shooting 12 shots with rr's b.c core and wounding on 2's with only invuls that matters, they still are killing 10 models, 3 units kills a 30man, not counting killing anything with 3+ wounds just as easily.
I'm worried about 18 of them, bladeguard, i3x5 Tacs, and 9 ATV's lists with Chief Apoths, Lieu, and Captain.
The problem still ends up being that the difference between imagifier and preacher buffs for repentia ends up being a little over 2 wounds per squad on average against T7 and T6(imagifier's favor) while being 9 wounds per squad against T4 and T5 and 4.4 wounds per squad on T8(preachers favor). That means that over the course of a game, you would have to hit ONLY rhinos and stormspeeder equivalents for the imagifier to be better. If you had to hit one of the new primaris hover tanks, an exocrine, a squad of bikes, a squad of terminators, a squad of eradicators, a squad of skorpechs, a land raider, a squad of plague marines, a squad of regular marines, a knight, etc; the priest is better.
And honestly, with the changes to Meltas, you shouldn't really be using repentia to go after T6 and T7 targets anymore, they're much more efficient at decimating T5 and lower or using Tear them Down to kill T8 when a squad of MM rets or even a couple basic battle sister squads with MMs can pop 2+ rhinos per turn fairly reliably.
Also, with Eradicators kicking around the only people bringing significant numbers of T7 are...us in bloody rose transport lists. Most vehicles are on the shelf until eradicators take a nerf.
This is where and why I disagree with you.
It doesn't matter if a preacher adds more wounds per turn against a MEQ target, because the MEQ target is already dead 8 times out of 10. Any damage beyond 5x2 is meaningless.
An Imagifer buffed squad requires a strength of 7 to have an 80% chance of destroying a space marine squad.
A Priest buffed squad requires a strength of 6 to have an 80% chance of destroying a space marine squad.
and, as presented before:
An Imagifer buffed squad requires a strength of 8 to have an 80% chance of destroying a rhino-like target, or 16 for destroying a dreadnought-like target
A Priest buffed squad requires a strength of 10 to have an 80% chance of destroying a rhino-like target, or 20 for destroying a dreadnought-like target
So basically, the way I see it, is that the priest gives me a buff against units I don't need a buff against, because I'm already good at it. So I don't need him.
Right now, my list doesn't have a lot of AT power outside the Repentia, mostly because it hasn't reacted to the melta-buff yet, and I'm already starting to see a proliferation of dreadnoughts which are T7. Obviously, the answer to dreadnoughts is MMRets & Exorcists, not hit-it-with-Repentia, but if I don't want to introduce Eradicator-targets back into my list that won't reliably kill a dreadnought anyway, it's going to be a job for the Repentia. If I decide I don't want to have an Imagifier, which I might anyway if I switch into AS Mech Infantry + BR Assault like I'm thinking of doing, I'm not particularly inclined to replace her with a priest unless I go in on Morts or Arcos.
I might just decide to deal with the problem by bringing enough vehicles that it doesn't matter that the Eradicators kill three, because they can only kill three. Particularly because I like tanks, and have a lot of them ready anyway to make a list out of, and am more than a little tired of the general mass melee trend.
I am not a fan of MM Rets. They're very expensive at 140 for a minimum unit or 200 for a full unit, and basically have no surviability. The only way to make them last at all is to be VH and have a tale of the stoic imagifier with them, other wise bolt rifles just erase them. And even then, they're a plasgun magnet and plasguns are still everywhere because of the Marine meta. I would still take an Exorcist over them, because an Exorcist is at least T8 W12 R48"; even if it doesn't get the +2 damage in half range.
My MM Rets just comes in out of Reserves or start behind obscuring. But now that their MM's are 2 shots, thats a bonus 2 more shots compare to 1 more shot with each Cherub, thats 4 shots now. Is 12 MM shots worth it to you as a 1 hit wonder for the points? To me yes, b.c now I have 1 unit that can deal with any 1 tank/MC for the most part at range. It also forces them to think where they want those units.
The only problem is Eradicators might change the meta completely to no MC/Tanks/Large units. And I might never need to take them anymore b.c of them.
Ancible wrote: I also think the threat of Eradicators means folks are hell bent on countering them, which often means either screening to deny the effective placement of strategic reserves, or by ensuring they can't get within melta damage bonus range of your armour, making them a tad bit less capable.
You say that, but 18 of them is still good enough even against hordes, when you are shooting 12 shots with rr's b.c core and wounding on 2's with only invuls that matters, they still are killing 10 models, 3 units kills a 30man, not counting killing anything with 3+ wounds just as easily.
I'm worried about 18 of them, bladeguard, i3x5 Tacs, and 9 ATV's lists with Chief Apoths, Lieu, and Captain.
You need to commit to them being in a castle to ensure they all have rerolls, which is really easy to avoid on tables with adequate terrain. That's also pretty easy to see telegraphed
Contrary to popular belief, Eradicators are not invincible or impossible to counter.
Ancible wrote: I also think the threat of Eradicators means folks are hell bent on countering them, which often means either screening to deny the effective placement of strategic reserves, or by ensuring they can't get within melta damage bonus range of your armour, making them a tad bit less capable.
You say that, but 18 of them is still good enough even against hordes, when you are shooting 12 shots with rr's b.c core and wounding on 2's with only invuls that matters, they still are killing 10 models, 3 units kills a 30man, not counting killing anything with 3+ wounds just as easily.
I'm worried about 18 of them, bladeguard, i3x5 Tacs, and 9 ATV's lists with Chief Apoths, Lieu, and Captain.
You need to commit to them being in a castle to ensure they all have rerolls, which is really easy to avoid on tables with adequate terrain. That's also pretty easy to see telegraphed
Contrary to popular belief, Eradicators are not invincible or impossible to counter.
Never said they are invincible or impossible. Said they might change the norms.
Erads don't need re-rolls. I put mine wherever I need them to kill what I need to.
MM Rets can do an off-brand Eradicator impression, but I think the T3 vs. T5 and much higher cost really hurts them. T5 Erads don't die easily to regular rifle fire, were as T3 Rets die very fast, making Erads also draw more and a higher grade of fire than Rets do. In addition, the rate of degradation is either much lower for Erads, or to have a similar rate, the Rets have to cost about 1.5 times as much.
Finally, while I acknowledge that Rets can be a off-brand Erad squad and that they're still very dangerous in that role, copycatting Space Marines doesn't feel like a recipe for victory to me; because anybody out there who would expect to beat a Space Marine list wouldn't really have a hard time with you, and everybody is tailoring for anti-marine.
I don't try to copy cat them at all, i used them as a high threat unit to force them to change how they play.
Eradicators can be spammed for cheap and even use to shoot infantry in a pinch b.c of how effective they are, 18 of them still kills something like 25 gants before melee.
ERJAK wrote: Price is irrelevant if you're talking competitive theory. Tournament players will either fork over the cash or find a creative way around modeling issues.
Well competitive gaming, and I mean tournament level, is only a fraction of the game, actually a tiny part of it.
And it's not completely irrelevant in the tournament scene as well. One of the orks best unit, if not the very best unit points and meta wise (it's the perfect anti gravis weapon) is the Smasha Gun and yet no list that placed high in tournaments in 9th edition so far had a single one of them despite they match very well with any sort of list, while even mediocre vehicles showed up in those winning lists. Being forcing to pay 50$ for a 40ppm model has an impact, even in tournament environments.
For the same reson I don't expect tons of multimelta retributors to be meta like eradicators, which will certainly show up frequently also in casual and semi-competitive games.
Blackie wrote: And it's not completely irrelevant in the tournament scene as well. One of the orks best unit, if not the very best unit points and meta wise (it's the perfect anti gravis weapon) is the Smasha Gun and yet no list that placed high in tournaments in 9th edition so far had a single one of them despite they match very well with any sort of list, while even mediocre vehicles showed up in those winning lists. Being forcing to pay 50$ for a 40ppm model has an impact, even in tournament environments.
For the same reson I don't expect tons of multimelta retributors to be meta like eradicators, which will certainly show up frequently also in casual and semi-competitive games.
There's other reasons than money cost for smasha gun since there's been multiple 18 smasha gun armies in tournaments during 8e. Where did all those models go? (besides orks are known for scratch building).
More likely due to them bleeding vp's(opponent is 100% quaranteed 15 vp) while being slow and not very good on objective game which is what 9e is about. 9e isn't about killing stuff only anymore. ITC's "gunlines ahoy" scenario pack died with 9e.
AesSedai wrote: How do Sororitas deal with the nightbringer?
Automatically Appended Next Post: How do Sororitas deal with the nightbringer?
We can deal 9 damage a turn easily, Seraphim in the movement phase, anything in the shooting and anything in the melee phases. You just need to deal with it before your force gets close to it, or feed it a unit you don't care about.
AesSedai wrote: How do Sororitas deal with the nightbringer?
Automatically Appended Next Post: How do Sororitas deal with the nightbringer?
We can deal 9 damage a turn easily, Seraphim in the movement phase, anything in the shooting and anything in the melee phases. You just need to deal with it before your force gets close to it, or feed it a unit you don't care about.
How do seraphim do damage in the movement phase? Deadly descent?
AesSedai wrote: How do Sororitas deal with the nightbringer?
Automatically Appended Next Post: How do Sororitas deal with the nightbringer?
We can deal 9 damage a turn easily, Seraphim in the movement phase, anything in the shooting and anything in the melee phases. You just need to deal with it before your force gets close to it, or feed it a unit you don't care about.
How do seraphim do damage in the movement phase? Deadly descent?
Yes Deadly decent allows 4 inferno shots and a plasma (if you take on your superior which you should) plus all the AP-1 bolt pistols (if you are running BR which you should). Then repeat in the shooting phase.
So how are zephyrims treating you all with the +1S boost? It definitely helps v T4 and T3, not much use v. T5 marines unless buffed by priest. Still feel the unit is a bit weak to mass fire firepower with T3 despite the 3+/5++.
Are people field 10 man retributor squads with 4MM, 2 cherubs, and simalacrum? 215 points is still pretty high, but it damn felt nice wiping a 6 man eradicator squad (with 2 MM) with one volley on the return fire (lost 6 sisters from their volley, thank you 5++ save) when I used the MM strat and 2 cherubs
Amishprn86 wrote: Yes, as it is still in the movement phase. Sure you need the room to DS and do that, but we are able to kill him in 1 turn.
Plus even if not in 1 turn...it's 350 pts. It struggles to make it's worth vs sisters in even 2 turns. Sisters is one of the armies that have fairly little to worry about that. Just don't feed him your exorcists and you are golden. (and you literally need to feed them to it to lose them...)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dominuschao wrote: Why would the repressor go to legends? That's a gw thing.. Is there a single fw legend?
Not that I'm saying it shouldn't. But lord arkos, zufor etc. They aren't either.
EDIT- nevermind I saw the statement. Legends it is.
There wasn't before for FW because there was only index for FW units. Legends are for units from index that does not go to post-index book. Unsurprisingly thus for FW it comes when index gets replaced.
kiron wrote: So how are zephyrims treating you all with the +1S boost? It definitely helps v T4 and T3, not much use v. T5 marines unless buffed by priest. Still feel the unit is a bit weak to mass fire firepower with T3 despite the 3+/5++.
Are people field 10 man retributor squads with 4MM, 2 cherubs, and simalacrum? 215 points is still pretty high, but it damn felt nice wiping a 6 man eradicator squad (with 2 MM) with one volley on the return fire (lost 6 sisters from their volley, thank you 5++ save) when I used the MM strat and 2 cherubs
Retributors 5 or 10 man won't last after a single round of being shot at. Although I like going to 6 man for the banner extra miracle die. I am leaning more towards small units as even the extra fodder guys don't offer much except add more points. This is such a high priority target that adding extra bodies isn't really that helpful at T3 1W and it's much harder to hide if it's too large. They are a one an done unit I'm finding but you may see different results. I'd rather keep the units small to hide or drop in for their one shot deal and then die. I've even looked at going cheaper with 2 HB and 2 MM as the cherubs add 2 extra MM anyway so saves you some points and still gives 8 MM shots.
Curious about other heavy options as well. I'm leaning more towards exorcists in my BR to have more vehicle presence. So 2 EXO and a small ret squad to drop in. While the repentia and celestians move up. What do you all think on the heavy options. Outside of maxing out mortifiers of course.
kiron wrote: So how are zephyrims treating you all with the +1S boost? It definitely helps v T4 and T3, not much use v. T5 marines unless buffed by priest. Still feel the unit is a bit weak to mass fire firepower with T3 despite the 3+/5++.
Are people field 10 man retributor squads with 4MM, 2 cherubs, and simalacrum? 215 points is still pretty high, but it damn felt nice wiping a 6 man eradicator squad (with 2 MM) with one volley on the return fire (lost 6 sisters from their volley, thank you 5++ save) when I used the MM strat and 2 cherubs
Retributors 5 or 10 man won't last after a single round of being shot at. Although I like going to 6 man for the banner extra miracle die. I am leaning more towards small units as even the extra fodder guys don't offer much except add more points. This is such a high priority target that adding extra bodies isn't really that helpful at T3 1W and it's much harder to hide if it's too large. They are a one an done unit I'm finding but you may see different results. I'd rather keep the units small to hide or drop in for their one shot deal and then die. I've even looked at going cheaper with 2 HB and 2 MM as the cherubs add 2 extra MM anyway so saves you some points and still gives 8 MM shots.
Curious about other heavy options as well. I'm leaning more towards exorcists in my BR to have more vehicle presence. So 2 EXO and a small ret squad to drop in. While the repentia and celestians move up. What do you all think on the heavy options. Outside of maxing out mortifiers of course.
Retributors are okay if you keep them within the 4++ or 5++ bubble with ignore AP1 banner in range. There isn't much mass fire that can kill a whole squad that quick. I find them more resilient than an exorcist. Given the amount of eradicators running around, exorcist don't even survive a volley (average 16 shots all doing D6 damage). If they are shooting my retributors then my repentia are safe. An exorcist needs a triumph to babysit it to improve its defence so it can turn those 5 miracle dice into saves.
I just noticed that it seems to be posdible to use "heroine in the making" on Ephrael stern, since it's only restricted for celestine, junith and triumph, not for all named characters... since she lacks the order keyword, she can't buff other units, but I think the cc trait could work quite well...
Bossdoc wrote: I just noticed that it seems to be posdible to use "heroine in the making" on Ephrael stern, since it's only restricted for celestine, junith and triumph, not for all named characters... since she lacks the order keyword, she can't buff other units, but I think the cc trait could work quite well...
well for us Imperials.....
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