MrMoustaffa wrote: That's understandable, a buddy sold me some metal sisters for dirt cheap to flesh out my army and the scale difference is pretty rough
This is the main reason why I'm going to try and not get any of the new plastic models. If I do end up needing more units, I'm planning on getting more metal ones from ebay and the likes. I think I'm pretty good right now but time will tell.
Crimson wrote: The plastic models are simply amazing. I have waited for this twenty years, and I'm finally starting a Sister army because of them.
I'm not arguing that they don't look great. The scale it just a (small) disappointment for those of us that already have full sisters armies that the change IMHO would throw off. Enough of my army is already modeled "illegally" with options that were legal in "Witchhunters" (ie Evicerators on Seraphim Superior) but have been long removed
On a tactics note, what are peoples thoughts on Sacred Rights. I'm thinking mostly Divine Guidance as general and Aegis of the Emperor vs psyker heavy forces
Crimson wrote: The plastic models are simply amazing. I have waited for this twenty years, and I'm finally starting a Sister army because of them.
I'm not arguing that they don't look great. The scale it just a (small) disappointment for those of us that already have full sisters armies that the change IMHO would throw off. Enough of my army is already modeled "illegally" with options that were legal in "Witchhunters" (ie Evicerators on Seraphim Superior) but have been long removed
On a tactics note, what are peoples thoughts on Sacred Rights. I'm thinking mostly Divine Guidance as general and Aegis of the Emperor vs psyker heavy forces
Some of them aren't too bad, seraphim for example don't look very different aside from the wings being smaller, and the repentia aren't super noticeable either, but man the regular sisters are a good 2 foot height difference if you were talking "in real life". And the bases don't help either, especially with some really odd choices like the new repentia being on 28mm bases instead of 25's for some bizarre reason. I'm probably going to have a mix but will likely keep the models in separate units where possible.
As for sacred rights I never cared much for abilities that give +1 AP on a 6 to wound. I was thinking mostly Hand of the Emperor or Spirit of the Martyr, both pair well with sisters on foot, but I could see Aegis, passion, and light of the emperor all having uses. I feel like you could roll 2d6 most games and end up alright, especially since you can reroll them throughout the game and avoid a reroll. Probably woundnt pick one unless I knew I really needed it, like aegis against 1k sons or something.
the_scotsman wrote: Why not just use storm bolter dominions if you want to use blessed bolts?
They have still lost 20% of their firepower as far as the superior nerf goes.
Sure. I mean, except for the fact that blessed bolts maybe didn't exist before?
I'd guess the nerf is probably there to give dominions a reason to exist. With Argent shroud you can get them in rapid with blessed bolts turn 1 without a transport - fairly solid, cheap offensive firepower. I like that better than melta dominions.
the_scotsman wrote: Why not just use storm bolter dominions if you want to use blessed bolts?
They have still lost 20% of their firepower as far as the superior nerf goes.
Sure. I mean, except for the fact that blessed bolts maybe didn't exist before?
I'd guess the nerf is probably there to give dominions a reason to exist. With Argent shroud you can get them in rapid with blessed bolts turn 1 without a transport - fairly solid, cheap offensive firepower. I like that better than melta dominions.
the_scotsman wrote: Why not just use storm bolter dominions if you want to use blessed bolts?
They have still lost 20% of their firepower as far as the superior nerf goes.
Hardly worth complaining about. Oh no, 20% of what amounts to stalker bolt rifles, in one round of shooting, with a CP cost. SUPERIORS ARE RUINED!!! GASP
im surprised there may be a bigger market for metal sisters than i thought. wouldn't guessed scale creep working in my favor potentially.
i think ive already answered to sacred rites, but im mostly feeling hand of the Emperor, because i don't really care for divine guidance personally, even though it probably has more merit. Aegis for anti-psyker and in my opinion the best when useful.
Bdrone wrote: im surprised there may be a bigger market for metal sisters than i thought. wouldn't guessed scale creep working in my favor potentially.
i think ive already answered to sacred rites, but im mostly feeling hand of the Emperor, because i don't really care for divine guidance personally, even though it probably has more merit. Aegis for anti-psyker and in my opinion the best when useful.
given you can p;ick your rites at the start of a fight I can see switching things up[ as nesscary.
fighting 1k sons or another psykic heavy list? grab aegis of the emperor, fighting a long distance focused gunline where you're wanting to get in close ASAP? hand.
etc
given you can p;ick your rites at the start of a fight I can see switching things up[ as nesscary.
fighting 1k sons or another psykic heavy list? grab aegis of the emperor, fighting a long distance focused gunline where you're wanting to get in close ASAP? hand.
etc
of course! the sacred rite is flexiable, but id still say the most powerful when the situation calls for it is Aegis. if anything the question isn't so much what sacred rite to use, or whether or not you will have them or ally in someone else, because aside from an inquisitor you can't ally anything else in while having them.
Is anyone considering triple battalion? I meant to start with brigade + battalion, but I got drawn in three directions. Valorous Heart camps in the back with Exorcists and heavy bolters, Bloody Rose advances with Seraphim and stormbolters, Argent Shroud flanks with meltaguns, heavy flamers, and stormbolter Dominions. The last 50 points were hard to spend, and I feel like I could trade the Dialogus and some hardware for more bodies. Definitely open for suggestions... and is it legal / costed properly?
Also, which units to combine into a brigade, and under which order, or maybe just which of these works least well?
Spoiler:
Sacred Rite: Hand of the Emperor
1994 points, 16 CP
Valorous Heart Battalion
45- Canoness, Warlord: Beacon of Faith, Book of St. Lucius
160- Celestine
45- Imagifier
45- 5x BSS 45- 5x BSS 45- 5x BSS
90- 5x Retributer, 4x heavy bolter
160- Exorcist
160- Exorcist
I think I prefer Spirit of the Martyr, despite the additional rolls on a Valorous Heart army. Though Hand of the Emperor makes the most sense to me for AS/BR armies.
I expect pureTaC lists to take a Brazier Canoness to have the option of relic Brazier when it's relevant and a once per game smite when it isn't.
Lammia wrote: I think I prefer Spirit of the Martyr, despite the additional rolls on a Valorous Heart army. Though Hand of the Emperor makes the most sense to me for AS/BR armies.
I expect pureTaC lists to take a Brazier Canoness to have the option of relic Brazier when it's relevant and a once per game smite when it isn't.
Yeah, Spirit of the Martyr is a strong contender, especially as a list plays forwards, spams specials, and dies in droves, as this one probably would.
So in terms of Canoness loadout and game time decisions, let me see if I've got this right. I have to choose detachments, orders, and wargear in the list building phase, so I could bring three Canonesses with a chainsword, a blessed blade, and a brazier. I also have to name my warlord, but not choose my trait, right? Then in the pregame portion, I choose an armywide Sacred Rite, spend 2 CP for extra WT and extra relic ( but cant change the actual warlord role assignment), and pick 2 warlord traits. Then I upgrade whichever 2 Canoness weapons I want into relics regardless of which Canoness, trait, weapon, etc. because any Character can carry a relic. Does that sound right?
Lammia wrote: I think I prefer Spirit of the Martyr, despite the additional rolls on a Valorous Heart army. Though Hand of the Emperor makes the most sense to me for AS/BR armies.
I expect pureTaC lists to take a Brazier Canoness to have the option of relic Brazier when it's relevant and a once per game smite when it isn't.
Yeah, Spirit of the Martyr is a strong contender, especially as a list plays forwards, spams specials, and dies in droves, as this one probably would.
So in terms of Canoness loadout and game time decisions, let me see if I've got this right. I have to choose detachments, orders, and wargear in the list building phase, so I could bring three Canonesses with a chainsword, a blessed blade, and a brazier. I also have to name my warlord, but not choose my trait, right? Then in the pregame portion, I choose an armywide Sacred Rite, spend 2 CP for extra WT and extra relic ( but cant change the actual warlord role assignment), and pick 2 warlord traits. Then I upgrade whichever 2 Canoness weapons I want into relics regardless of which Canoness, trait, weapon, etc. because any Character can carry a relic. Does that sound right?
For the most part yes.
Some tournaments might require you to pick warlord traits/relics while building your list, always check the tournament rules.
Lammia wrote: I think I prefer Spirit of the Martyr, despite the additional rolls on a Valorous Heart army. Though Hand of the Emperor makes the most sense to me for AS/BR armies.
I expect pureTaC lists to take a Brazier Canoness to have the option of relic Brazier when it's relevant and a once per game smite when it isn't.
Yeah, Spirit of the Martyr is a strong contender, especially as a list plays forwards, spams specials, and dies in droves, as this one probably would.
So in terms of Canoness loadout and game time decisions, let me see if I've got this right. I have to choose detachments, orders, and wargear in the list building phase, so I could bring three Canonesses with a chainsword, a blessed blade, and a brazier. I also have to name my warlord, but not choose my trait, right? Then in the pregame portion, I choose an armywide Sacred Rite, spend 2 CP for extra WT and extra relic ( but cant change the actual warlord role assignment), and pick 2 warlord traits. Then I upgrade whichever 2 Canoness weapons I want into relics regardless of which Canoness, trait, weapon, etc. because any Character can carry a relic. Does that sound right?
Yes, aldough in WTC you need to set "default" warlord traits and relics. If you don't say otherwise, those are your load out, but you can normally determine them before game.
Just played a 2000 point game with (borrowed) Sisters. We played an ITC mission. I ran a single Brigade detachment of Valorous Heart. And I got my ass kicked hard because I really didn't know much of what I was supposed to be doing with the army. I ran a pretty good selection of units including 2 Melta Dominion units in Immolators (probably use Repressors next time even though they can't scout move with Doms inside) and 3 Exorcists. I also had Celestine and a Rhino full of a Missionary and 9 Arco-flatulents (that's what I call them now hehehe), plus 2 Seraphim units with 2 chicks with Inferno Pistols in each, 6 double SB Battle Sister units, 2 Imagifiers, and a Dialogus. My Warlord was a Canoness with the extra Miracle Dice trait (too bad most of my miracle dice were 1's and 2's all game).
In future, I'll probably just run a Valorous Heart Spearhead of a Canoness, Imagifier and 3 Exorcists, plus a brigade of Bloody Rose or something. Also I think despite how powerful she is Celestine may be a trap in ITC play (fine in other formats or for casual play), mostly due to how many victory points she potentially coughs up. That boost to Shield of Faith is nice though to give Exorcists a 5++. Too bad the one Warlord Trait only works on Infantry and not vehicles. I'd like to try running Repentia instead of Arcos since they benefit from Order rules and they can get stupid because of it. So far at least I'm learning a few things and can maybe start to plan my model purchases.
I imagine for Bloody Rose/Argent Shroud the Hand of the Emperor would be the generic lock in, while Spirit of the Martyr will be for everyone else, if it's for Tournaments where your list is locked in.
With Celestine, a warlord with the book + indomitable belief, and another canoness with a bonus miracle die WLT with the strategem, that would probably be the best options, no?
the_scotsman wrote: Why not just use storm bolter dominions if you want to use blessed bolts?
They have still lost 20% of their firepower as far as the superior nerf goes.
Hardly worth complaining about. Oh no, 20% of what amounts to stalker bolt rifles, in one round of shooting, with a CP cost. SUPERIORS ARE RUINED!!! GASP
It's a pretty gakky + unnecessary nerf and it's not like we got anything in return from Legends as far as i know, so why are you acting like it would be somehow irrelevant?
the_scotsman wrote: Why not just use storm bolter dominions if you want to use blessed bolts?
They have still lost 20% of their firepower as far as the superior nerf goes.
Hardly worth complaining about. Oh no, 20% of what amounts to stalker bolt rifles, in one round of shooting, with a CP cost. SUPERIORS ARE RUINED!!! GASP
It's a pretty gakky + unnecessary nerf and it's not like we got anything in return from Legends as far as i know, so why are you acting like it would be somehow irrelevant?
It's in legends if, for some reason, you REALLY value a couple extra Bolter shots per squad. Losing access to 2 extra str 4 AP0 1 damage shots is pretty irrelevant and does not make or break the unit. You're all acting like this is some massive nerf. It isn't.
the_scotsman wrote: Why not just use storm bolter dominions if you want to use blessed bolts?
They have still lost 20% of their firepower as far as the superior nerf goes.
Hardly worth complaining about. Oh no, 20% of what amounts to stalker bolt rifles, in one round of shooting, with a CP cost. SUPERIORS ARE RUINED!!! GASP
It's a pretty gakky + unnecessary nerf and it's not like we got anything in return from Legends as far as i know, so why are you acting like it would be somehow irrelevant?
It's in legends if, for some reason, you REALLY value a couple extra Bolter shots per squad. Losing access to 2 extra str 4 AP0 1 damage shots is pretty irrelevant and does not make or break the unit. You're all acting like this is some massive nerf. It isn't.
Losing Shield of Faith buffs on vehicles is.
Celestine being separated from her Geminae is.
Losing a storm bolter is easy to shrug off.
BSS superiors losing their most efficient weapon option is significant. BSS are already suffering as a result of the new codex paradigm(i.e all transports are significantly worse), this is an additional reduction in efficacy. Unless you're taking melta squads, which is mostly an argent shroud thing, there's not another option you can give a sister superior that's as good for the points as a stormbolter.
The pistols are impractical, condemnors don't offer much value, anything that uses the regular flamer profile suffers from that weapon's inefficiency, combi-plasma are simply too expensive for their output when you can't amass significant numbers of them.
I would argue that losing the vehicle 4++ is significantly less impactful and easier to shrug off because we can simply stop using vehicles, as I have outside of the exorcist. We can't choose to stop using BSS.
I would argue that losing the vehicle 4++ is significantly less impactful and easier to shrug off because we can simply stop using vehicles, as I have outside of the exorcist. We can't choose to stop using BSS.
Wait. You are trying to say that losing a silly StormBolter on a Sister superior for 2 lousy points is significant in your mind...But losing 4+ on Exorcists isn't?
Crazyterran wrote: I imagine for Bloody Rose/Argent Shroud the Hand of the Emperor would be the generic lock in, while Spirit of the Martyr will be for everyone else, if it's for Tournaments where your list is locked in.
With Celestine, a warlord with the book + indomitable belief, and another canoness with a bonus miracle die WLT with the strategem, that would probably be the best options, no?
Spirit of the martyr doesn't seem very good to me. In practice you're mostly getting 1 extra bolter shot every 3 battle sister deaths that you can't predict or control. Hand, Aegis, Passion, and Guidance all seem like better lock ins to me. Spirit isn't bad to roll into, but I wouldn't pick it.
I would argue that losing the vehicle 4++ is significantly less impactful and easier to shrug off because we can simply stop using vehicles, as I have outside of the exorcist. We can't choose to stop using BSS.
Wait. You are trying to say that losing a silly StormBolter on a Sister superior for 2 lousy points is significant in your mind...But losing 4+ on Exorcists isn't?
Ignoring the obvious strawman;
On the exorcist, sure losing the 4++ sucks, but the buffs to the exorcist was compensation enough that they're still useful(even incredibly strong) and don't feel like a noose around the list's necks the way battle sisters do now(argent shroud exluded). If the new exorcist had access to a 4++, it would be pretty busted ngl.
The point is that when vehicles get nerfed the army just shifts away from vehicles. Don't feel like the exorcist is tough enough without the 4++ to be worth 170pts? Well now Multi-melta retributors are a viable option and they can get a 4++ no problem.
What are you gonna shift to when battle sisters get nerfed? Your only option is allies, especially when you consider that the army is so voraciously command point hungry that you're looking at 9 units of battle sisters most of the time.
Hits to battle sisters cannot be mitigated the same way hits to other units can because we need command points too much.
This whole thing is why Argent Shroud seems so much stronger than I thought it would be in the previews. They're the only Conviction that can really do anything with battle sisters offensively. Sure, Valorous heart can make them basically unkillable, but they don't actually do anything but camp objectives.
Crazyterran wrote: I imagine for Bloody Rose/Argent Shroud the Hand of the Emperor would be the generic lock in, while Spirit of the Martyr will be for everyone else, if it's for Tournaments where your list is locked in.
With Celestine, a warlord with the book + indomitable belief, and another canoness with a bonus miracle die WLT with the strategem, that would probably be the best options, no?
Spirit of the martyr doesn't seem very good to me. In practice you're mostly getting 1 extra bolter shot every 3 battle sister deaths that you can't predict or control. Hand, Aegis, Passion, and Guidance all seem like better lock ins to me. Spirit isn't bad to roll into, but I wouldn't pick it.
I would argue that losing the vehicle 4++ is significantly less impactful and easier to shrug off because we can simply stop using vehicles, as I have outside of the exorcist. We can't choose to stop using BSS.
Wait. You are trying to say that losing a silly StormBolter on a Sister superior for 2 lousy points is significant in your mind...But losing 4+ on Exorcists isn't?
Ignoring the obvious strawman;
.
No strawman. Your words. "Losing the vehicle 4++ is significantly less impactful and easier to shrug off {than the loss of storm bolters which is what we were discussing}."
Crazyterran wrote: I imagine for Bloody Rose/Argent Shroud the Hand of the Emperor would be the generic lock in, while Spirit of the Martyr will be for everyone else, if it's for Tournaments where your list is locked in.
With Celestine, a warlord with the book + indomitable belief, and another canoness with a bonus miracle die WLT with the strategem, that would probably be the best options, no?
Spirit of the martyr doesn't seem very good to me. In practice you're mostly getting 1 extra bolter shot every 3 battle sister deaths that you can't predict or control. Hand, Aegis, Passion, and Guidance all seem like better lock ins to me. Spirit isn't bad to roll into, but I wouldn't pick it.
I would argue that losing the vehicle 4++ is significantly less impactful and easier to shrug off because we can simply stop using vehicles, as I have outside of the exorcist. We can't choose to stop using BSS.
Wait. You are trying to say that losing a silly StormBolter on a Sister superior for 2 lousy points is significant in your mind...But losing 4+ on Exorcists isn't?
Ignoring the obvious strawman;
.
No strawman. Your words. "Losing the vehicle 4++ is significantly less impactful and easier to shrug off {than the loss of storm bolters which is what we were discussing}."
the_scotsman wrote: Why not just use storm bolter dominions if you want to use blessed bolts?
They have still lost 20% of their firepower as far as the superior nerf goes.
Hardly worth complaining about. Oh no, 20% of what amounts to stalker bolt rifles, in one round of shooting, with a CP cost. SUPERIORS ARE RUINED!!! GASP
It's a pretty gakky + unnecessary nerf and it's not like we got anything in return from Legends as far as i know, so why are you acting like it would be somehow irrelevant?
It's in legends if, for some reason, you REALLY value a couple extra Bolter shots per squad. Losing access to 2 extra str 4 AP0 1 damage shots is pretty irrelevant and does not make or break the unit. You're all acting like this is some massive nerf. It isn't.
Losing Shield of Faith buffs on vehicles is.
Celestine being separated from her Geminae is.
Losing a storm bolter is easy to shrug off.
I feel a part of the "outrage" is the fact that it was a very asinine thing to remove, and it's clear GW did it on purpose. If theyd removed all the combiweapons on sisters, or removed stormbolters entirely, it'd be one thing. But to only remove it on the superiors, when you get 4 of the stupid things in a regular sisters kit just feels completely out of left field.
It's not like it was busted or anything. Only idea I have is that I guess they didnt want Canonesses to have it. But if that's the case, why not just do an asterisk like they did for hand flamers?
I started sisters with the plastic box, so it's no skin off my bones, but it does feel like a middle finger to sisters players to intentionally remove that option when they knew a lot of metal players had the option modeled and were regularly using it. It would've been 0 issue allowing superiors to have it. Yes, one squad gets 20% more firepower with a strat, whoop de Doo. There are 100 point units in this game that with proper setup can one shot anything in the game, I don't see that stormbolter being the end of the world.
The new exorcist seems pretty reliable and tasty but also very vulnerable to many match ups, like going second against Eldar flyers or playing against imperial fists.
On the other hand Retributors with MM, Simulacrum and 2 Cherubs seem also pretty sweet but only really 1 squad can do the job per term, as the stratagem is pretty mendatory to extend their threat range imo.
lash92 wrote: The new exorcist seems pretty reliable and tasty but also very vulnerable to many match ups, like going second against Eldar flyers or playing against imperial fists.
I've only played one game so far, but the Exorcist seems able to tank a surprising amount of fire. They'll still go down to dedicated focused anti-tank, but the Valorous Heart 6+++ can mean that you have to sink an extra shot into them before they die.
Exorcists definately benefit from being run in threes though, as that means that you've still got two decently functional tanks even if one does get blown up turn one.
Seraphim with two double Inferno Pistols dropping in with the strat to boost their range can do a lot as well. They comfortably murdered a Bloodthirster in a turn with a little Mircale Dice help.
I would argue that losing the vehicle 4++ is significantly less impactful and easier to shrug off because we can simply stop using vehicles, as I have outside of the exorcist. We can't choose to stop using BSS.
Wait. You are trying to say that losing a silly StormBolter on a Sister superior for 2 lousy points is significant in your mind...But losing 4+ on Exorcists isn't?
Some posters hold extremely passionate positions, which is normally not a bad thing. Unfortunately, you can't reason people out of positions they didn't reason themselves into. Once you start reading the hyperbolic nonsense it's easy to recognize it for what it is - loud noises.
If you wanted Unit1126PLL's review of the codex in one sentence:
"Nice, great, but what the hell is with Canoness weapon options and why do Sister Superiors lose their storm bolters?"
I never played vehicles, so barely noticed the 4++ thing or exorcist buff as a blip on the radar. But as someone who plays an infantry spam list, having to remodel all the SB Superiors (who are metal) is really freaking annoying. It has very little to do with in-game effectiveness and everything to do with being asked to adjust metal models for some inscrutable reason.
Like, why tho?
Same with the canoness options. My combimelta canoness will require butchering the model to fix, or I have to play her as legends. Why not let canonesses have combi-meltas in the new book? Because of a kit they themselves designed and don't know the rules for anyways (ref: plasma pistol/rod of office canoness)?
lash92 wrote: So what are you guys using for long ranged AT?
The new exorcist seems pretty reliable and tasty but also very vulnerable to many match ups, like going second against Eldar flyers or playing against imperial fists.
On the other hand Retributors with MM, Simulacrum and 2 Cherubs seem also pretty sweet but only really 1 squad can do the job per term, as the stratagem is pretty mendatory to extend their threat range imo.
Would love to here your experiences!
Well as release is later no game experience but 3 excorsist ignoring ap-2 and retributor squad with meltas plus some melta guns and inferno pistols is my initial idea.
lash92 wrote: So what are you guys using for long ranged AT?
The new exorcist seems pretty reliable and tasty but also very vulnerable to many match ups, like going second against Eldar flyers or playing against imperial fists.
On the other hand Retributors with MM, Simulacrum and 2 Cherubs seem also pretty sweet but only really 1 squad can do the job per term, as the stratagem is pretty mendatory to extend their threat range imo.
Would love to here your experiences!
Well as release is later no game experience but 3 excorsist ignoring ap-2 and retributor squad with meltas plus some melta guns and inferno pistols is my initial idea.
The only problem I have with exorcists is the big fat lascannon shaped hole in their defenses. Like "please I ignore AP-2 have T8 and have a 6++ save please PLEASE don't have S9 AP-3 specifically!!!"
I used 2 squads of 10x Rets with 4 Multi-melta pretty well for my long-ranged AT needs... but having to dedicate CP to Storm of Retribution definitely hurt. I only had to use it once, though. I did have an Exorcist on the field, too, just to distract a little anti-tank-shaped weaponry from being able to hit the Retributors.
Buffed up Valorous Heart Rets in cover are incredibly tanky, too. Probably about as sturdy as the Exorcist itself without the drawback of taking multiple wounds per shot.
As for losing Storm bolters on Superiors... peh, whatever. I'll miss the BSS x5 squad with 3 Storm bolters, but I've deflected to using larger squads (10-15) with 1x meltagun in each. They're a lot more dangerous than the extra storm bolter EVER was, ESPECIALLY with the MD mechanic. I should probably make them combi-meltas on the Superiors, but just 1 melta shot has been amazing so far. Also, Simulacrums have been standouts as well with that configuration. Those distributed meltaguns have such a wide range of applications throughout the game.
lash92 wrote: So what are you guys using for long ranged AT?
The new exorcist seems pretty reliable and tasty but also very vulnerable to many match ups, like going second against Eldar flyers or playing against imperial fists.
On the other hand Retributors with MM, Simulacrum and 2 Cherubs seem also pretty sweet but only really 1 squad can do the job per term, as the stratagem is pretty mendatory to extend their threat range imo.
Would love to here your experiences!
Well as release is later no game experience but 3 excorsist ignoring ap-2 and retributor squad with meltas plus some melta guns and inferno pistols is my initial idea.
The only problem I have with exorcists is the big fat lascannon shaped hole in their defenses. Like "please I ignore AP-2 have T8 and have a 6++ save please PLEASE don't have S9 AP-3 specifically!!!"
Well can't have everything. Lucky us current meta is tons of -1/-2 shots as most stuff have inv save anyway.
And that's why i have infantry meltas scattered around. Plus if i go second that lascannon needs to be more mobile than infantry to get los
Speaking of infantry meltas - I'm curious why the feelings on Inferno Pistol superiors are so lackluster. Speaking as someone who plays pretty much pure Wych Cult drukhari, one of the meanest nastiest things about my MSU mechanized list is the single strength 8 AP-4 d6D shot that every single one of my MSU squads can put down.
The Pistol type means I can use it even if I'm engaged in close combat (which my wyches generally want to be, but I guess with Sisters that'd be a pretty small benefit) and the short range is a bit of a drawback but mostly offset by the fact that they're just so damn cheap I can throw them on all my squads and not feel like it makes the list significantly worse.
Inferno Pistols combined with the miracle dice system seem like no brainers to me on most of my basic BSS squads. You've got the potential to use a "3" or better miracle die and 1cp to deal D6 damage to any T7 3+ vehicle.
the_scotsman wrote: Speaking of infantry meltas - I'm curious why the feelings on Inferno Pistol superiors are so lackluster. Speaking as someone who plays pretty much pure Wych Cult drukhari, one of the meanest nastiest things about my MSU mechanized list is the single strength 8 AP-4 d6D shot that every single one of my MSU squads can put down.
The Pistol type means I can use it even if I'm engaged in close combat (which my wyches generally want to be, but I guess with Sisters that'd be a pretty small benefit) and the short range is a bit of a drawback but mostly offset by the fact that they're just so damn cheap I can throw them on all my squads and not feel like it makes the list significantly worse.
Inferno Pistols combined with the miracle dice system seem like no brainers to me on most of my basic BSS squads. You've got the potential to use a "3" or better miracle die and 1cp to deal D6 damage to any T7 3+ vehicle.
I guess playtesting and see (the doom of all speculation) - but my thoughts are "how often are your sisters in 6")? How often do they get charged (or charge) and survive to your shooting phase?
It feels like a nice upgrade that could be situationally incredible - but once you have it on say 6 squads, thats starting to add up to the bulk of another squad and the trade off is having more bodies.
Well as release is later no game experience but 3 excorsist ignoring ap-2 and retributor squad with meltas plus some melta guns and inferno pistols is my initial idea.
Well if you have the dice kicking around you can soak one per turn
Exorcists must be equipped with an Exorcist Missile Launcher -OR- Exorcist Conflagration Rockets. The Rockets are 30p cheaper, but you have to choose one or the other. They're not fire modes of the same gun.
KestrelM1 wrote: Exorcists must be equipped with an Exorcist Missile Launcher -OR- Exorcist Conflagration Rockets. The Rockets are 30p cheaper, but you have to choose one or the other. They're not fire modes of the same gun.
Which I immediately took to meaning there would be a noticeable difference in their appearance on the model itself. Why else make this different profile into a completely different weapon?
But as I flipped through the pictures and noticed an Exorcist sporting slightly different coloured missiles in the organ tubes, I started to realize that this made too much sense so I guess GW went the other way
Inferno Pistols are not necessarily bad, but that 6" range is pretty iffy. If you wanted to max like Flamer weapons, Inferno Pistols become much better... but Meltaguns and Plasma guns (and their combi-cousins) play a bit better with numbers that the rest of the squad is playing with.
12" = 2x Rapid Fire range, it is also maximum charge distance. With MD, you can threaten chargers, especially characters and vehicles, with the meltagun a lot more efficiently than the 6" inferno pistol. Same applies to the plasma gun, though it'll fade off a bit vs high wound count models.
Inferno pistol is usually only MORE useful at point-blank range, or if you manage to survive a melee through to your shooting phase. None of these are typically going to end up well for the squad.
I think an argument can be made for the Canoness, since her role is a bit different and tougher to just mob up in melee, in addition to being able to survive just a touch better in combat... but still, I use it exactly like a sidearm: last ditch effort when things start getting a bit pear-shaped and I need an out.
Purifying Tempest wrote: Inferno Pistols are not necessarily bad, but that 6" range is pretty iffy. If you wanted to max like Flamer weapons, Inferno Pistols become much better... but Meltaguns and Plasma guns (and their combi-cousins) play a bit better with numbers that the rest of the squad is playing with.
12" = 2x Rapid Fire range, it is also maximum charge distance. With MD, you can threaten chargers, especially characters and vehicles, with the meltagun a lot more efficiently than the 6" inferno pistol. Same applies to the plasma gun, though it'll fade off a bit vs high wound count models.
Inferno pistol is usually only MORE useful at point-blank range, or if you manage to survive a melee through to your shooting phase. None of these are typically going to end up well for the squad.
I think an argument can be made for the Canoness, since her role is a bit different and tougher to just mob up in melee, in addition to being able to survive just a touch better in combat... but still, I use it exactly like a sidearm: last ditch effort when things start getting a bit pear-shaped and I need an out.
To me, I want the psychological effect of the weapon almost more than the actual in-game effect.
Let's say I have a basic footslogging non-melee sisters list setup. I've decided to skew against anti-tank weaponry and it's a marine meta moment right now, so I'm going valorous heart with ignore ap-2 imagifiers. I've got 5-woman sisters squads with 1 storm bolter per squad as my troops, some hand flamer seraphim standing in the 4++ relic bubble or maybe with Celestine as a screen, a drop squad of melta seraphim to deal with point threats, some bolter retributors to hold my backline, and my elite slots are easily filled with a couple of imagifiers and a celestian squad to tank wounds against the raven guard sniper heavy matchup.
I could either:
1) pay 47 points per squad of BSS and have 4 boltguns and a storm bolter per squad
Or
2) pay 59 points per squad of BSS and have 4 boltguns, a storm bolter, an inferno pistol and a simulacrum per squad.
Door number 2 does raise the average cost of a sister body up from 9.4 to 11.8 and that is a problem, but suddenly I'm not handing my opponent an obvious answer as to which squads he should immediately target, because the Seraphim squads cost 11.4ppm, storm bolter dominion squads cost 11.6ppm, and storm bolter celestian squads cost 10.8ppm.
There are still obvious priority targets in the list like if I choose to include a suicide melta dominion squad for when I know I'm getting first turn, or the heavy bolter retributors though those are harder to reach and harder to kill, but it gives each sisters squad a distrinctly increased threat.
I don't think keeping your squads at 9.4ppm is necessarily BAD, I just think it presents a different gameplan, and it's a gameplan where you know that all your special stuff is going to be focused down because you cannot present any threat from BSS at all and you're relying on your bodycount to allow you to control the field later in the game when all your rets doms seraphim and celestians are dead.
And personally I think generating more miracle dice than you can efficiently use in a turn is going to be a problem in lists where you scorn the simulacrum and keep all your troop squads as cheap as humanly possible. You can get 1 per turn base, 1 per turn from a 45pt autoinclude HQ and 1 per turn from a 50pt terrain piece that gives you cover and LOS block anywhere on the board. And that's before generating any at all from active actions.
With infernos, each squad can pop you for guaranteed 6 damage. each squad can use a 3 and autohit and autowound. each squad can threaten the immediate death of a rambo smash character if they fail their invuln. And that means they're something you might have to consider.
Played a game today, so I have some real experience instead of just personal theorycrafting:
Triumph underperformed pretty badly. The extra Miracle Dice was handy, but I'd have been better off ditching her and shaving points elsewhere to get another Battalion.
The terrain piece is really nice. In any game where I have the detachment available, I'll probably be taking one, unless the model is too unwieldy to be useful.
Celestine still does work, and her significantly improved Warlord Trait makes her a good choice for Warlord.
I seriously felt the loss of Storm Bolter Superiors. Over the course of the game, it added up very, very quickly, and I probably lost 30+ bolter shots as a result.
I need to remember to use Miracle Dice more often, and want to see the FAQ for how miracle dice work with large attack sequences. I ended up dumping handfuls of them onto 4+ invulnerable saves late in the game because I'd been saving them too much and didn't have anything else to spend them on.
Speaking of: Miracle Dice are excellent for a lot of purposes, but especially charging. Guaranteed 9" charges out of deep strike, (or other long charges,) is *massive*. Other benefits are really nice to have too, but that's the one I felt the most.
My Penitent Engines got blown up before I could use them. I want to try them again, but they may be too fragile to be practical in three-engine squads now.
And, incidentally, Eisenhorn underperformed compared to a vanilla inquisitor, but that's not Sisters tactica.
I need to remember to use Miracle Dice more often, and want to see the FAQ for how miracle dice work with large attack sequences.
It's simple when you remember that at it's core all attacks are done one at the time. So 4 melta guns for example are never going to be doing 4d6 damage as one roll as you would go melta gun 1: to hit, to wound, save, damage and repeat this for melta guns 2-4.
Guess faq is needed by definition as it is asked often but answer is still going to be for one roll which means one damage roll(how many dice weapon stat rolls etc). No using 4 MD to get quaranteed 4 melta guns hitting or anything like that.
Waaaghpower wrote: Played a game today, so I have some real experience instead of just personal theorycrafting:
Triumph underperformed pretty badly. The extra Miracle Dice was handy, but I'd have been better off ditching her and shaving points elsewhere to get another Battalion.
The terrain piece is really nice. In any game where I have the detachment available, I'll probably be taking one, unless the model is too unwieldy to be useful.
Celestine still does work, and her significantly improved Warlord Trait makes her a good choice for Warlord.
I seriously felt the loss of Storm Bolter Superiors. Over the course of the game, it added up very, very quickly, and I probably lost 30+ bolter shots as a result.
I need to remember to use Miracle Dice more often, and want to see the FAQ for how miracle dice work with large attack sequences. I ended up dumping handfuls of them onto 4+ invulnerable saves late in the game because I'd been saving them too much and didn't have anything else to spend them on.
Speaking of: Miracle Dice are excellent for a lot of purposes, but especially charging. Guaranteed 9" charges out of deep strike, (or other long charges,) is *massive*. Other benefits are really nice to have too, but that's the one I felt the most.
My Penitent Engines got blown up before I could use them. I want to try them again, but they may be too fragile to be practical in three-engine squads now.
And, incidentally, Eisenhorn underperformed compared to a vanilla inquisitor, but that's not Sisters tactica.
So, you took Celestine and the Triumph in the same list?
On turn two on my game this past weekend, my opponent just kept talking gak about my Zephyrim Squad. He's all like, no way you'll make that 11 inch charge.
I just stared at him for a moment, picked up the two 6's I had in my miracle dice pool and moved them into CC with his abaddon.
Heh. Going to take a while for people to keep in mind what miracle dices you have available. Even single 6 will make charge fairly easy. 6 + any one of them for adjusting after roll with CP and CP reroll if need be is almost as good as using 2 dices at once saving MD's most of the time(plus no need to have 2 high ones for that. 6+1 is plenty)
tneva82 wrote: Heh. Going to take a while for people to keep in mind what miracle dices you have available. Even single 6 will make charge fairly easy. 6 + any one of them for adjusting after roll with CP and CP reroll if need be is almost as good as using 2 dices at once saving MD's most of the time(plus no need to have 2 high ones for that. 6+1 is plenty)
Blood Rose Zephyrim are no joke.
With the Passion and Rapturous Blows, + their Bloody Rose Trait and a well placed Tear them Down for 1 CP, they put out
31 Attacks on the charge @ S3 AP-4, rerolling ALL failed wounds @ +1 to wound with Exploding 6s. The great thing about it too is that BR trait benefits pistol weapons too, so BPs become AP -1. You also get to reroll failed charges for the unit and get +1 Invuln.
Drop, Shoot, Charge, Act of Faith (If needed), Stab.
Any one here considering hand flamers for Superiors? I'm considering a battalion with 3x 5 sister squads w/ 1 melta in each. Allows for holy trinity strategem. Might be a thing, but im still hesitant to through melta into 5 girl squads that can die so easy.
tneva82 wrote: Heh. Going to take a while for people to keep in mind what miracle dices you have available. Even single 6 will make charge fairly easy. 6 + any one of them for adjusting after roll with CP and CP reroll if need be is almost as good as using 2 dices at once saving MD's most of the time(plus no need to have 2 high ones for that. 6+1 is plenty)
Blood Rose Zephyrim are no joke.
With the Passion and Rapturous Blows, + their Bloody Rose Trait and a well placed Tear them Down for 1 CP, they put out
31 Attacks on the charge @ S3 AP-4, rerolling ALL failed wounds @ +1 to wound with Exploding 6s. The great thing about it too is that BR trait benefits pistol weapons too, so BPs become AP -1. You also get to reroll failed charges for the unit and get +1 Invuln.
Drop, Shoot, Charge, Act of Faith (If needed), Stab.
Very cool, planning on painting all my seraphim and zepharim slightly differently from the rest of the army to represent bloody rose.
I think of of the big things about mircle dice once sisters have been out "in the wilds" a bit and people know more about them is going to be how they impact how people play, as sisters will be able to pull off suprising upsets with MD and effectively "beat the odds when it's really needed" people may play more cautiously agaisnt them. because something that for anyone else would be a "hail mary" for sisters will be MUCH more acheivable
Twoshoes23 wrote: Any one here considering hand flamers for Superiors?
I am considering it for my upcoming Bloody Rose force, but I don't understand anything about Sisters, so you probably shouldn't listen me...
Really for the 1 point and loss of 1 bolter shot at 12", it may be worth it for unlocking holy trinity
My initial test of Holy Trinity is going to be 10x Bloody Rose Seraphim with 2x hand flamer and 2x inferno pistol deployed on the table to escort Celestine to the party. One their own, the flamers and pistols make them hard to charge, the infernos might finish the job a melta BSS starts, and all together with the strat (assuming full strength) I think it's 16 S4 BS3+ shots at +1 to wound (3+ vs. MEQ) and -1AP, two S8 shots wounding most things on 2s with -5AP for 1d6D, and 2d6 autohits that maybe get to wound on 4s or 5s, again with -1AP. Not being able to split fire w/ Trinity is a bear, but it seems like a squad with good utility, good resiliency, and good range for 126 points if I've done my math right.
Twoshoes23 wrote: Any one here considering hand flamers for Superiors? I'm considering a battalion with 3x 5 sister squads w/ 1 melta in each. Allows for holy trinity strategem. Might be a thing, but im still hesitant to through melta into 5 girl squads that can die so easy.
Have them be valorous heart and they don't die so easy and you can add second special weapon. At least storm bolters for some extra shots
What is the current thinking as to the 'good and bad' Order choices?
Ebon Chalice seems good for the guaranteed 6's, though it burns through dice faster so I guess it depends on if your list is capable of generating them?
Bloody Rose seems like a fun blender option, lots of melta pistols and hand flamers and stabby stabby.
That's my quick overview of the ones that look like winners (to my way of playing). Though I like glass cannon armies that either die fast or hit extremely hard. Those guaranteed 6's sound interesting for melta damage, though bloody rose seems like it would be the hardest hitting choice. Thoughts?
Niiru wrote: What is the current thinking as to the 'good and bad' Order choices?
Ebon Chalice seems good for the guaranteed 6's, though it burns through dice faster so I guess it depends on if your list is capable of generating them?
Bloody Rose seems like a fun blender option, lots of melta pistols and hand flamers and stabby stabby.
That's my quick overview of the ones that look like winners (to my way of playing). Though I like glass cannon armies that either die fast or hit extremely hard. Those guaranteed 6's sound interesting for melta damage, though bloody rose seems like it would be the hardest hitting choice. Thoughts?
Valorous Heart seems like the go-to for me. Especially with Space Marines and their pesky Doctrines dominating the competitive meta. Being able to ignore AP-1 or even -2 with an Imagifier nearby is a good way to negate their shenanigans. Plus 6+ FnP is good to have. Other than that, i like Bloody Rose for units like Seraphim, Zephyrim, and Repentia. Even Celestians can really get some teeth with that one. Make sure to bring a Missionary or Preacher for even more attacks, especially with Repentia.
My current list idea uses Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose together. Here it is for the curious:
Spoiler:
Detachment 1: Spearhead (Valorous Heart)
Canoness: Chainsword, Bolt Pistol
Imagifier
3x Exorcist with the big missiles
Detachment 2: Brigade (Bloody Rose)
Canoness: Power Sword, Plasma Pistol
Canoness: Chainsword, Bolt Pistol (most likely will take the Bloody Rose relic chainsword)
Missionary
6x 5 Battle Sisters with 2 Storm Bolters
Imagifier with Book of St. Lucius
8 Sisters Repentia
5 Zephyrim with Pennant
2x 5 Seraphim with 2x double Inferno pistols
5 Dominions with 2 Storm Bolters and 2 Meltaguns
5 Retributors with 4 Multi-meltas
2x 5 Retributors with 4 Heavy Bolters
Repressor: 2 Heavy Flamers
Rhino
The Doms and melta Retributors go in the Repressor, while the Repentia, Missionary and Imagifier go in the Rhino. The Repressor can't scout with the girls inside, but that's okay since it's mainly there to protect them while they use its fire points to shoot out. I actually have 6 points left but no idea what to spend them on other than maybe a power weapon or plasma pistol on somebody. The one Canoness only has the PP/PS because that's what's on the Canoness in the box set.
My army has obviously started with the models in the special edition set so I'll be basing my list on that. Feel like VH is the best order with the extra ap on a 6 to wound being the extra power granted for them being a pure force.
For the first portion of the army I'll be buying another box of sisters in January when they are released so I'll be up to 20. Depending on how flush I'm feeling I might go for a Excorcist as well but I doubt I'll get that until February.
Want a solid base of resilient sister squads and excorcists too hold the line with distraction carnifex squads of mortifiers and rhino mounted repentia charging forward. Finally a second turn drop of some bloody rose Seraphim and Zepharim!
I suppose it's possiable those ones will get plastic updates, not really holding my breath, taking some thought about it I don't intend to use eaither. I want sister's of battle, not "sisters of battle and some asshat screaming 'hit them harder!"
Niiru wrote: What is the current thinking as to the 'good and bad' Order choices?
Ebon Chalice seems good for the guaranteed 6's, though it burns through dice faster so I guess it depends on if your list is capable of generating them?
Bloody Rose seems like a fun blender option, lots of melta pistols and hand flamers and stabby stabby.
That's my quick overview of the ones that look like winners (to my way of playing). Though I like glass cannon armies that either die fast or hit extremely hard. Those guaranteed 6's sound interesting for melta damage, though bloody rose seems like it would be the hardest hitting choice. Thoughts?
I think it depends on the units you like.
Infantry in general: Valorous Heart or Argent Shroud depending on your playstyle. I lean towards Valorous Heart here personally because I generally just do anything that makes 8th less deadly. Dominions really want to be Argent Shroud especially with storm bolters.
Exorcists: Ebon Chalice with the Triumph, Sanctum, and two canonesses with Beacon and Terrible Knowledge and you've got a trio of exorcists who will never not have the ability to drop a 6 damage on something when one of their shots gets through. Support those with some immolators full of heavy flamer retributors to make use of the "auto-sixes" stratagem they have to melt blobs of infantry. 5 retributors using that stratagem melt 16 ork boyz in one shot.
Big 15-gal blob squads: Sacred Rose. I'd say this might be the least appealing trait in general, yes it is very nice to be able to spread the buffs from your characters far and wide with the huge-ass squads you can comfortably take in SR, and you can take the cherub and simulacrum on every squad without feeling bad about it, the problem arises when your stuff starts getting bogged in combat.
Seraphim/Zephyrim/Repentia: Bloody Rose (obviously). Also kind of Celestians, who can actually make use of their 2A and WS3+ native stats in BR?
Rhino Rush: Maybe Martyred Lady? That one and Sacred Rose are definitely the hardest to find situations where they're definitely better than other choices. When your transport gets popped a model will probably die, and you'll get the bonus miracle die, so you'll get both benefits of martyred lady immediately upon losing a transport.
the_scotsman wrote: Exorcists: Ebon Chalice with the Triumph, Sanctum, and two canonesses with Beacon and Terrible Knowledge and you've got a trio of exorcists who will never not have the ability to drop a 6 damage on something when one of their shots gets through. Support those with some immolators full of heavy flamer retributors to make use of the "auto-sixes" stratagem they have to melt blobs of infantry. 5 retributors using that stratagem melt 16 ork boyz in one shot.
Rhino Rush: Maybe Martyred Lady? That one and Sacred Rose are definitely the hardest to find situations where they're definitely better than other choices. When your transport gets popped a model will probably die, and you'll get the bonus miracle die, so you'll get both benefits of martyred lady immediately upon losing a transport.
Valorous heart could be useful for both of these. With all the -1 and -2 high ROF dominating AT since inv saves are so useful vehicles with 3+(2+ in cover) ignoring -2 is pretty sweet. Those will be high priority targets and you need to expose yourself to shoot with exorcists so...
the_scotsman wrote: Exorcists: Ebon Chalice with the Triumph, Sanctum, and two canonesses with Beacon and Terrible Knowledge and you've got a trio of exorcists who will never not have the ability to drop a 6 damage on something when one of their shots gets through. Support those with some immolators full of heavy flamer retributors to make use of the "auto-sixes" stratagem they have to melt blobs of infantry. 5 retributors using that stratagem melt 16 ork boyz in one shot.
Rhino Rush: Maybe Martyred Lady? That one and Sacred Rose are definitely the hardest to find situations where they're definitely better than other choices. When your transport gets popped a model will probably die, and you'll get the bonus miracle die, so you'll get both benefits of martyred lady immediately upon losing a transport.
Valorous heart could be useful for both of these. With all the -1 and -2 high ROF dominating AT since inv saves are so useful vehicles with 3+(2+ in cover) ignoring -2 is pretty sweet. Those will be high priority targets and you need to expose yourself to shoot with exorcists so...
Yeah IMO Val Heart is pretty much the default that will never not be good for any given army setup. I do think Exorcists are the best choice to reach for with any real heavy miracle die generation-centric build. There's pretty much nothing in the army that doesn't like ignoring -1AP and a 6+++, though I'm having problems coming up with AP-1 weapons I think my opponent is likely to come at me with against my T8 3+ Exorcists.
Martyred Lady is a tricky one to envision. I think you really have to like Junith Eruita, and I think the best setup to use her is in a kind of rhino rush situation where you roll up with a bunch of squads that work well exactly 1 lady down - retributors, dominions with 4x specials, BSS squads with combi-plasmas? I dunno.
Argent Shroud is very good for all infantry but doesn't help the vehicles terribly much.
I've been having a blast with mine. 127 girls (!! still shocked at how many bullets I can soak without losing anything of value) and a blender of short-ranged firepower.
the_scotsman wrote: though I'm having problems coming up with AP-1 weapons I think my opponent is likely to come at me with against my T8 3+ Exorcists.
Well really it'll be shrugging AP-2, since you're never not leaving an Imagifier with them. In that case you're shrugging basically everything Tau can throw at you, All varieties of autocannons, Assault Cannons, heavy Bolters (both of these are viable anti-tank in marines due to shot numbers and rerolls). Battlecannons, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Missile Launchers. Really, if you look at most of the big lists out there, you're shrugging a lot of their big guns and all of their "jack of all trades" guns.
the_scotsman wrote: though I'm having problems coming up with AP-1 weapons I think my opponent is likely to come at me with against my T8 3+ Exorcists.
Well really it'll be shrugging AP-2, since you're never not leaving an Imagifier with them. In that case you're shrugging basically everything Tau can throw at you, All varieties of autocannons, Assault Cannons, heavy Bolters (both of these are viable anti-tank in marines due to shot numbers and rerolls). Battlecannons, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Missile Launchers. Really, if you look at most of the big lists out there, you're shrugging a lot of their big guns and all of their "jack of all trades" guns.
Literally all of those guns are far, far, far better off shooting at sisters infantry except for Battle Cannons and Missile Launchers.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Argent Shroud is very good for all infantry but doesn't help the vehicles terribly much.
I've been having a blast with mine. 127 girls (!! still shocked at how many bullets I can soak without losing anything of value) and a blender of short-ranged firepower.
I find that hard to believe with respect to Immolators. An extra D6" move while still being able to fire off your 12" range heavy flamers is pretty slick for those things.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Argent Shroud is very good for all infantry but doesn't help the vehicles terribly much.
I've been having a blast with mine. 127 girls (!! still shocked at how many bullets I can soak without losing anything of value) and a blender of short-ranged firepower.
I find that hard to believe with respect to Immolators. An extra D6" move while still being able to fire off your 12" range heavy flamers is pretty slick for those things.
Immolation flamers are assault anyways, so any Order can do this. And they auto-hit, so the -1 for advancing and shooting is irrelevant.
the_scotsman wrote: though I'm having problems coming up with AP-1 weapons I think my opponent is likely to come at me with against my T8 3+ Exorcists.
Well really it'll be shrugging AP-2, since you're never not leaving an Imagifier with them. In that case you're shrugging basically everything Tau can throw at you, All varieties of autocannons, Assault Cannons, heavy Bolters (both of these are viable anti-tank in marines due to shot numbers and rerolls). Battlecannons, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Missile Launchers. Really, if you look at most of the big lists out there, you're shrugging a lot of their big guns and all of their "jack of all trades" guns.
Literally all of those guns are far, far, far better off shooting at sisters infantry except for Battle Cannons and Missile Launchers.
True, but all those guns are what people are spamming since they're dual purpose. How often do you see dedicated anti-armour weaponry on your tables? I have to say, I don't see it much. People spam middle of the road, high shot output weaponry. That is where Valorous Heart shines. Also those guns might be better off shooting normal sisters, but since they'll also be shrugging AP-2 as well, you're leaving your opponent with no good targets for a lot of their weaponry.
Sure lascannons ruin your day, but you've got 6++ and miracle dice for those
the_scotsman wrote: though I'm having problems coming up with AP-1 weapons I think my opponent is likely to come at me with against my T8 3+ Exorcists.
Well really it'll be shrugging AP-2, since you're never not leaving an Imagifier with them. In that case you're shrugging basically everything Tau can throw at you, All varieties of autocannons, Assault Cannons, heavy Bolters (both of these are viable anti-tank in marines due to shot numbers and rerolls). Battlecannons, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Missile Launchers. Really, if you look at most of the big lists out there, you're shrugging a lot of their big guns and all of their "jack of all trades" guns.
Literally all of those guns are far, far, far better off shooting at sisters infantry except for Battle Cannons and Missile Launchers.
Assault Cannons autocannons and heavy bolters are typically seen in imp fist list setups where they become AP-2 Ignore Cover Damage 2 or damage 3, in which case they magically become anti-tank guns rather than anti-infantry guns, and indeed are much much more efficient when fired at exorcists than BSS. As long as those bananalads are repeatedly ramming their bolt rifles into the competitive 40k meta, Valorous Heart is going to be the way to bring sisters and have them compete (And I actually think they're a really really good answer, incidentally)
Also, autocannons are 20% more efficient firing at exorcists than at sisters because they lose the benfit of damage 2 vs the sisters, even disregarding imp fist benefits. Same with the avenger gatling cannon. Losing damage 2 is a huge deal.
the_scotsman wrote: though I'm having problems coming up with AP-1 weapons I think my opponent is likely to come at me with against my T8 3+ Exorcists.
Well really it'll be shrugging AP-2, since you're never not leaving an Imagifier with them. In that case you're shrugging basically everything Tau can throw at you, All varieties of autocannons, Assault Cannons, heavy Bolters (both of these are viable anti-tank in marines due to shot numbers and rerolls). Battlecannons, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Missile Launchers. Really, if you look at most of the big lists out there, you're shrugging a lot of their big guns and all of their "jack of all trades" guns.
Literally all of those guns are far, far, far better off shooting at sisters infantry except for Battle Cannons and Missile Launchers.
True, but all those guns are what people are spamming since they're dual purpose. How often do you see dedicated anti-armour weaponry on your tables? I have to say, I don't see it much. People spam middle of the road, high shot output weaponry. That is where Valorous Heart shines. Also those guns might be better off shooting normal sisters, but since they'll also be shrugging AP-2 as well, you're leaving your opponent with no good targets for a lot of their weaponry.
Sure lascannons ruin your day, but you've got 6++ and miracle dice for those
Well, a 5+ armor save and a 6+++, because I'm bringing a sanctum so I can actually say with confidence my exorcists will have cover :p
I do wonder whether exorcists bring anything particularly spicy to the table vs standard marine lists or whether you'd be better off just bringing a sea of bodies and playing to objectives. You are, after all, one of the few things that those IH/Imp Fist/Raven Guard lists can't just hose off the table over 5 turns.
Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when I say "boy, my army needs anti-tank", I don't throw in a gatling cannon or a sprinkling of autocannons and call it good.
I suppose I could be wrong in that, but typically I look out for meltaguns, lascannons, or D3/Dd6 damage weapons.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when I say "boy, my army needs anti-tank", I don't throw in a gatling cannon or a sprinkling of autocannons and call it good.
I suppose I could be wrong in that, but typically I look out for meltaguns, lascannons, or D3/Dd6 damage weapons.
Lascannons are easy enough to focus down, you only need to take one volley from them unless your opponent is spamming the hell out of them. Meltaguns are never getting anywhere near your Exorcists, Sisters can spam well enough to screen them out. D3 weaponry tends to be AP-2, so you shrug most of them. Necron Destroyers ruin your life, but they ruin everyone's lives.
And yeah Scotsman, depending on what the model looks like/size, I'll be bringing a Battle Sanctum along to act as free cover for my tanks too.
valorous heart is a pretty solid answer to all of these "super points efficient" anti tank choices like a krast crusader or the above mentioned ap-2 D2/3 weaponry.
I'm real curious to see how well it fares despite being unable to table people
Unit1126PLL wrote: Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when I say "boy, my army needs anti-tank", I don't throw in a gatling cannon or a sprinkling of autocannons and call it good.
I suppose I could be wrong in that, but typically I look out for meltaguns, lascannons, or D3/Dd6 damage weapons.
This is one of those things that just kind of speaks to the current meta moment.
Right now, space marines can abuse the broken as feth supplements and super-doctrines of IH and Imp Fists to bring some truly ridiculous high-ROF multidamage weaponry. An IH stormcannon leviathan or an Imp Fist Stormraven puts out an absolutely crazy volume of mid-strength AP-2 D2/D3 firepower that tears through vehicles almost as good as traditional anti-tank weaponry and still retains the option to tear up infantry instead.
Look at what an imp fist stormraven does vs a standard T7 3+ tank with its super doctrine on:
Stormraven, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin heavy Bolter, Stormstrikes:
Sure, you jump from an average of approximately 9 unsaved wounds to approximately 11, but the former loadout can also turn its assault cannon and heavy bolters on MEQ if it wants and deal 5.5 unsaved wounds to them. the latter costs more, and can't.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when I say "boy, my army needs anti-tank", I don't throw in a gatling cannon or a sprinkling of autocannons and call it good.
I suppose I could be wrong in that, but typically I look out for meltaguns, lascannons, or D3/Dd6 damage weapons.
This is one of those things that just kind of speaks to the current meta moment.
Right now, space marines can abuse the broken as feth supplements and super-doctrines of IH and Imp Fists to bring some truly ridiculous high-ROF multidamage weaponry. An IH stormcannon leviathan or an Imp Fist Stormraven puts out an absolutely crazy volume of mid-strength AP-2 D2/D3 firepower that tears through vehicles almost as good as traditional anti-tank weaponry and still retains the option to tear up infantry instead.
Look at what an imp fist stormraven does vs a standard T7 3+ tank with its super doctrine on:
Stormraven, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin heavy Bolter, Stormstrikes:
Sure, you jump from an average of approximately 9 unsaved wounds to approximately 11, but the former loadout can also turn its assault cannon and heavy bolters on MEQ if it wants and deal 5.5 unsaved wounds to them. the latter costs more, and can't.
I feel this is the problem with "anything can damage everything" I think there should be some sort of AV mechanic put back into the game. Something like a min S is needed to damage a certain AV. Or set AV get damage reduction vs weapons of low strength. A rifle or heavy machinegun should not be able to take wounds off of a huge tank, even with 6+ to wound and vehicle Armour saves. Used to be only lower strength weapons with Rending "might" have a chance if they got lucky
I feel this is the problem with "anything can damage everything" I think there should be some sort of AV mechanic put back into the game. Something like a min S is needed to damage a certain AV. Or set AV get damage reduction vs weapons of low strength. A rifle or heavy machinegun should not be able to take wounds off of a huge tank, even with 6+ to wound and vehicle Armour saves
That used to be "not anti tank weapons do 1 damage" but as things have escalated that isn't necessarily the case anymore
Unit1126PLL wrote: Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when I say "boy, my army needs anti-tank", I don't throw in a gatling cannon or a sprinkling of autocannons and call it good.
I suppose I could be wrong in that, but typically I look out for meltaguns, lascannons, or D3/Dd6 damage weapons.
This is one of those things that just kind of speaks to the current meta moment.
Right now, space marines can abuse the broken as feth supplements and super-doctrines of IH and Imp Fists to bring some truly ridiculous high-ROF multidamage weaponry. An IH stormcannon leviathan or an Imp Fist Stormraven puts out an absolutely crazy volume of mid-strength AP-2 D2/D3 firepower that tears through vehicles almost as good as traditional anti-tank weaponry and still retains the option to tear up infantry instead.
Look at what an imp fist stormraven does vs a standard T7 3+ tank with its super doctrine on:
Stormraven, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin heavy Bolter, Stormstrikes:
Sure, you jump from an average of approximately 9 unsaved wounds to approximately 11, but the former loadout can also turn its assault cannon and heavy bolters on MEQ if it wants and deal 5.5 unsaved wounds to them. the latter costs more, and can't.
I feel this is the problem with "anything can damage everything" I think there should be some sort of AV mechanic put back into the game. Something like a min S is needed to damage a certain AV. Or set AV get damage reduction vs weapons of low strength. A rifle or heavy machinegun should not be able to take wounds off of a huge tank, even with 6+ to wound and vehicle Armour saves. Used to be only lower strength weapons with Rending "might" have a chance if they got lucky
I keep saying that this could be fixed with a Keyword.
Anti-Vehicle "This weapon can damage units with the vehicle keyword."
If your gun doesn't have this, it cannot wound the target.
Unit1126PLL wrote: Maybe I'm old fashioned, but when I say "boy, my army needs anti-tank", I don't throw in a gatling cannon or a sprinkling of autocannons and call it good.
I suppose I could be wrong in that, but typically I look out for meltaguns, lascannons, or D3/Dd6 damage weapons.
This is one of those things that just kind of speaks to the current meta moment.
Right now, space marines can abuse the broken as feth supplements and super-doctrines of IH and Imp Fists to bring some truly ridiculous high-ROF multidamage weaponry. An IH stormcannon leviathan or an Imp Fist Stormraven puts out an absolutely crazy volume of mid-strength AP-2 D2/D3 firepower that tears through vehicles almost as good as traditional anti-tank weaponry and still retains the option to tear up infantry instead.
Look at what an imp fist stormraven does vs a standard T7 3+ tank with its super doctrine on:
Stormraven, Twin Assault Cannon, Twin heavy Bolter, Stormstrikes:
Sure, you jump from an average of approximately 9 unsaved wounds to approximately 11, but the former loadout can also turn its assault cannon and heavy bolters on MEQ if it wants and deal 5.5 unsaved wounds to them. the latter costs more, and can't.
I feel this is the problem with "anything can damage everything" I think there should be some sort of AV mechanic put back into the game. Something like a min S is needed to damage a certain AV. Or set AV get damage reduction vs weapons of low strength. A rifle or heavy machinegun should not be able to take wounds off of a huge tank, even with 6+ to wound and vehicle Armour saves. Used to be only lower strength weapons with Rending "might" have a chance if they got lucky
Except that in the last incarnation of it, the AV system actually made high-ROF, low AP weaponry BETTER at wounding tanks.
Also, again, we are talking about a VERY specific, right now meta moment where everything is dominated by the 800 pound gorillas of the marine supplements and in particular the two Devastator based super-doctrines.
Valorous Heart is such a supremely powerful counter against high-ROF Imp Fist and to a lesser extent Iron Hands lists that have been flattening the meta for the last few months that I have a hard time believing that their current incarnation isn't at least partially a spider sent to swallow a fly and make the supplements seem less pants-on-head ridiculous.
If, in a couple months, GW decides that they've hit their end of year sales targets with the new primaris stuff and they do something like say you get EITHER the rules from the supplement OR the rules from Marine Codex 2.0 and not both, or they heavily nerf the supplements or marine units, Valorous Heart will no longer be the be-all end-all. A Valorous Heart list is going to be strictly worse than almost any other devotion against an ork list or a traditional "lasguns and basilisks" Guard list setup.
There is almost a 100% chance that the first few sisters lists we see taking top places will be using Valorous Heart, with plenty of cheap bodies and kitted out to kill MEQ.
the_scotsman wrote: though I'm having problems coming up with AP-1 weapons I think my opponent is likely to come at me with against my T8 3+ Exorcists.
Well really it'll be shrugging AP-2, since you're never not leaving an Imagifier with them. In that case you're shrugging basically everything Tau can throw at you, All varieties of autocannons, Assault Cannons, heavy Bolters (both of these are viable anti-tank in marines due to shot numbers and rerolls). Battlecannons, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Missile Launchers. Really, if you look at most of the big lists out there, you're shrugging a lot of their big guns and all of their "jack of all trades" guns.
Literally all of those guns are far, far, far better off shooting at sisters infantry except for Battle Cannons and Missile Launchers.
Thing is many have those as anti at as well as they are better than say lascannon. Why take poor weapon when you can take better that deals with hordes as well? Nevermind if who will spam dam2 bolters all day. 100 s5 -2 d2 shots will wreck tanks better than lascannons would.
Togusa wrote: I keep saying that this could be fixed with a Keyword.
Anti-Vehicle "This weapon can damage units with the vehicle keyword."
If your gun doesn't have this, it cannot wound the target.
Examples:
Autocannons
Melta
Missiles
Brightlances
etc
Not:
Bolt Weapons
Lasguns
Flamers
etc.
I really like this idea. Simiple, easy to implement, effective, and can give some options for future weapon (high S w/o the key word)
I started a thread for it over in proposed rules.
Also, it even occurred to me you could do the same with "Anti-Infantry" and use it to dole out extra wounds. For example, a Heavy Bolter could have the Anti-Infantry Keyword that allows each successful wound against an infantry unit to count as 2. Not sure, might be way too powerful without some points changes, but it's worth thinking about.
So with Valorous heart, Im thinking of using the idea of the old guard tactic of a "melta hedge", except it's taken to a logical extreme guard players could never dream of. I remember it mainly being a thing in older editions as that was the age of vehicles capable of being one shot, but the idea still exists in 8th, but now mainly as plasma spam.
The idea of the melta hedge was simple, spam infantry, spam meltas. For guard it was a way to make sure opponents didn't just ignore your screen of guardsmen and only go after the tanks and artillery. With meltas, guardsmen were a threat, but still very cheap, even at 15 squads, your meltas added up to the cost of a single tank. The opponent had two choices.
1.ignore guardsmen, go after the tanks. This allowed guardsmen to aggressively push up the table and hedge in enemy vehicles. The guardsmen usually wouldn't be hitting things turn one, but by 2 and 3, enemy tanks rapidly ran out of room to maneuver as guardsmen hedged them in and started taking potshots. Yes, half the shots missed and not all got through, but you usually had 10-20 meltas across the table backed up by deepstriking stormtroopers with melta (seraphim for us) and you still had artillery and tanks. Not much could escape that for long.
2. Go after the guardsmen. Congratulations, you are now killing guardsmen, my tanks are mostly safe and I will do what I do best. Guard player at this point does tried and true "guess I'll just shoot him" strategy and usually has enough guardsmen to grab objectives in mop up phase of game.
The problem is meltas are more expensive now, and they add up fast. If you want to spam meltas, and seraphim, and dominons, and retributors, it gets expensive really quick and you're probably not taking exorcists at that point. I feel Celestine is a must and that doesn't help either. So you either double down on infantry entirely and consider retributors as your tanks, leaving you at the mercy of range, or you sacrifice retributors to take exorcists, which gives lascannons and other AP 3 multidamage weapons a reason for existing.
The other issue is do you splurge for simulacrums and cherubs? If you are spamming infantry and relying on this idea that a lone survivor or two from a squad can seriously damage targets, is the ability to give a unit roll 2d6, pick highest for MD that it can use on itself without eating your single freebie MD worth the cost of a single sister? This is a genuine question because every sister in this list will matter. A 10 woman squad with combimelta/melta is 119, simulcrum/cherub 129. Guard are paying roughly that for a Russ now.
I'm not entirely sure, I need to get some games in and see which theories hold up and which dont. Not having a way to get exorcists an invuln higher than a 6+ is a glaring weakness just begging to be exploited by weapons with nothing better to do. But at the same time you really need something with a threat radius greater than 30", even with a horde of sisters running up the board and seraphim dropping in. I've played enough hammer and anvil as guard to know that despite what people may claim, 48" and up weapon ranges absolutely have a purpose and are not to be underestimated. Given that a 1/3 of deployments involve coming at each other from short edges, a way to reach out and hit long range targets is a must. Otherwise guard will be an incredibly hard counter because their bread and butter are weapons that ignore VH strengths. Our weapons either have 0 ap and don't care, or usually ap3, and don't care. Your Exorcists will be murdered at range by basilisk fire, the return fire you do get to do will kill 1-2 guard tanks, and as you eventually close the distance the guard player, with proper play, can shred your sisters with efficient FRFSRF. With retributors, you've got no return fire turn 1 against a guard player turtled up, and the retributors are still at the mercy of basilisks, but can be protected by cover or overlapping Celestine and the WLT for a 4++/6+++. Every list will have a hard counter of course, but just something to consider with VH.
the_scotsman wrote: though I'm having problems coming up with AP-1 weapons I think my opponent is likely to come at me with against my T8 3+ Exorcists.
Well really it'll be shrugging AP-2, since you're never not leaving an Imagifier with them. In that case you're shrugging basically everything Tau can throw at you, All varieties of autocannons, Assault Cannons, heavy Bolters (both of these are viable anti-tank in marines due to shot numbers and rerolls). Battlecannons, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Missile Launchers. Really, if you look at most of the big lists out there, you're shrugging a lot of their big guns and all of their "jack of all trades" guns.
Literally all of those guns are far, far, far better off shooting at sisters infantry except for Battle Cannons and Missile Launchers.
Thing is many have those as anti at as well as they are better than say lascannon. Why take poor weapon when you can take better that deals with hordes as well? Nevermind if who will spam dam2 bolters all day. 100 s5 -2 d2 shots will wreck tanks better than lascannons would.
Interestingly, 100 S5 D2 shots will kill an Exorcist (hitting on 3s) even if it's Valorous Heart.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So with Valorous heart, Im thinking of using the idea of the old guard tactic of a "melta hedge", except it's taken to a logical extreme guard players could never dream of. I remember it mainly being a thing in older editions as that was the age of vehicles capable of being one shot, but the idea still exists in 8th, but now mainly as plasma spam.
The idea of the melta hedge was simple, spam infantry, spam meltas. For guard it was a way to make sure opponents didn't just ignore your screen of guardsmen and only go after the tanks and artillery. With meltas, guardsmen were a threat, but still very cheap, even at 15 squads, your meltas added up to the cost of a single tank. The opponent had two choices.
1.ignore guardsmen, go after the tanks. This allowed guardsmen to aggressively push up the table and hedge in enemy vehicles. The guardsmen usually wouldn't be hitting things turn one, but by 2 and 3, enemy tanks rapidly ran out of room to maneuver as guardsmen hedged them in and started taking potshots. Yes, half the shots missed and not all got through, but you usually had 10-20 meltas across the table backed up by deepstriking stormtroopers with melta (seraphim for us) and you still had artillery and tanks. Not much could escape that for long.
2. Go after the guardsmen. Congratulations, you are now killing guardsmen, my tanks are mostly safe and I will do what I do best. Guard player at this point does tried and true "guess I'll just shoot him" strategy and usually has enough guardsmen to grab objectives in mop up phase of game.
The problem is meltas are more expensive now, and they add up fast. If you want to spam meltas, and seraphim, and dominons, and retributors, it gets expensive really quick and you're probably not taking exorcists at that point. I feel Celestine is a must and that doesn't help either. So you either double down on infantry entirely and consider retributors as your tanks, leaving you at the mercy of range, or you sacrifice retributors to take exorcists, which gives lascannons and other AP 3 multidamage weapons a reason for existing.
The other issue is do you splurge for simulacrums and cherubs? If you are spamming infantry and relying on this idea that a lone survivor or two from a squad can seriously damage targets, is the ability to give a unit roll 2d6, pick highest for MD that it can use on itself without eating your single freebie MD worth the cost of a single sister? This is a genuine question because every sister in this list will matter. A 10 woman squad with combimelta/melta is 119, simulcrum/cherub 129. Guard are paying roughly that for a Russ now.
I'm not entirely sure, I need to get some games in and see which theories hold up and which dont. Not having a way to get exorcists an invuln higher than a 6+ is a glaring weakness just begging to be exploited by weapons with nothing better to do. But at the same time you really need something with a threat radius greater than 30", even with a horde of sisters running up the board and seraphim dropping in. I've played enough hammer and anvil as guard to know that despite what people may claim, 48" and up weapon ranges absolutely have a purpose and are not to be underestimated. Given that a 1/3 of deployments involve coming at each other from short edges, a way to reach out and hit long range targets is a must. Otherwise guard will be an incredibly hard counter because their bread and butter are weapons that ignore VH strengths. Our weapons either have 0 ap and don't care, or usually ap3, and don't care. Your Exorcists will be murdered at range by basilisk fire, the return fire you do get to do will kill 1-2 guard tanks, and as you eventually close the distance the guard player, with proper play, can shred your sisters with efficient FRFSRF. With retributors, you've got no return fire turn 1 against a guard player turtled up, and the retributors are still at the mercy of basilisks, but can be protected by cover or overlapping Celestine and the WLT for a 4++/6+++. Every list will have a hard counter of course, but just something to consider with VH.
And this is where we either ally for range or go for zephirims. We have no way of getting distant targets and targets hidden from LoS by just shooting and thats why we will be probably using 2 units of zephirims + 3 of seraphim if we want to go mono build, to just rush them. With celestine and valorous hearth they are mobile and durable.This is why i believe that VH is second best Order for zephirims after BR. You are just using it as disruption and harassment tool instead of hammer.
Interestingly, 100 S5 D2 shots will kill an Exorcist (hitting on 3s) even if it's Valorous Heart.
Well yeah. What it would do vs non one? Especially in terrain vh basically halves damage those do.
It would also slag it?
I mean, what more do you want? You can only kill an Exorcist so many times. And yeah, in terrain, if you're 50% obscured, and not playing Imperial Fists who ignore cover anyways.
Interestingly, 100 S5 D2 shots will kill an Exorcist (hitting on 3s) even if it's Valorous Heart.
Well yeah. What it would do vs non one? Especially in terrain vh basically halves damage those do.
It would also slag it?
I mean, what more do you want? You can only kill an Exorcist so many times. And yeah, in terrain, if you're 50% obscured, and not playing Imperial Fists who ignore cover anyways.
Slag but lot faster. So the vh is worth it even if tank dies. You aren't losing other vehicles
I'm not worrying about tanks. If they shoot at tanks they aren't shooting at infantry. If they shoot at infantry they ain't shooting tanks. And then the ones they don't shoot hurts them.
tneva82 wrote: I'm not worrying about tanks. If they shoot at tanks they aren't shooting at infantry. If they shoot at infantry they ain't shooting tanks. And then the ones they don't shoot hurts them.
Everyone else must play mysterious opponents who don't bring anti-tank guns or anti-troop guns. I guess I haven't seen much of the new marines, but around my meta, things like Burst Cannons, Heavy Bolters, and Autocannons are for killing infantry/heavy infantry, and things like Lascannons and Heavy Laser Destroyers are for tanks.
Well here as generally everybody and their kitchen sink has inv save anything over -2 is wasted vs big targets like tanks while many(especially numarines) can bring weapons that shoot like 10 times, wound all vehiles on 5, -2 and damage 2. Which incidentally scores about 3 times damage vs t8 5++ base vine target.
Even against more ideal t8 no inv it's 1.3 vs tad under 3. While sucking against infantrv
Why bring dedicated weapons when you can bring weapons that do both well and even vs dedicated only barely loses for points
8th ed is edition you don"' want low rof high s high ap shots for at
tneva82 wrote: Well here as generally everybody and their kitchen sink has inv save anything over -2 is wasted vs big targets like tanks while many(especially numarines) can bring weapons that shoot like 10 times, wound all vehiles on 5, -2 and damage 2. Which incidentally scores about 3 times damage vs t8 5++ base vine target.
Even against more ideal t8 no inv it's 1.3 vs tad under 3. While sucking against infantrv
Why bring dedicated weapons when you can bring weapons that do both well and even vs dedicated only barely loses for points
8th ed is edition you don"' want low rof high s high ap shots for at
It might help to talk about what weapon you're meaning when you say "shoot 10 times, wound all vehicles on 5s, -2, and Damage 2" because that weapon is probably more expensive than a lascannon.
How much CP will the army need to function? I have two armies in battle scribe, one is a brigade with more tools to use, and the other is brigade + battalion that loses tools to get 5 more CP.
Basicly, to those who've actually played the new DeX, is 15CP enough to run them, or do we really need 20?
tneva82 wrote: Well here as generally everybody and their kitchen sink has inv save anything over -2 is wasted vs big targets like tanks while many(especially numarines) can bring weapons that shoot like 10 times, wound all vehiles on 5, -2 and damage 2. Which incidentally scores about 3 times damage vs t8 5++ base vine target.
Even against more ideal t8 no inv it's 1.3 vs tad under 3. While sucking against infantrv
Why bring dedicated weapons when you can bring weapons that do both well and even vs dedicated only barely loses for points
8th ed is edition you don"' want low rof high s high ap shots for at
It might help to talk about what weapon you're meaning when you say "shoot 10 times, wound all vehicles on 5s, -2, and Damage 2" because that weapon is probably more expensive than a lascannon.
Imperial fist thunderfirecannon, storm cannon aray(literaly h10 s7 ap-2 d2/ imperial fists twin assault cannons imperial fist heavy onslaught gatling cannon...man I got sad when i started checking and found all of those, and it was only 5 min, barely scratching those.
Tel11 wrote:How much CP will the army need to function? I have two armies in battle scribe, one is a brigade with more tools to use, and the other is brigade + battalion that loses tools to get 5 more CP.
Basicly, to those who've actually played the new DeX, is 15CP enough to run them, or do we really need 20?
15 is enough. otherwise you will probably not have any meaningful way of spending them.
Rynner wrote: 15 should be fine. The list I'm most likely bringing to LVO will have between 13-14 cp.
The bigger issue is Miracle dice. At a certain point you wind up having way more than you'll ever spend.
Unlikely. Remember about save modification stratagem, resurrect character stratagem. First one will on average require 2 dices, second one you will likely want to have 3 to spare. And given how cheap in cp they are and how game changing can be you should use them often. MOMENT OF GRACE will be our most spamed stratagem. In many cases its better than command reroll.
Melta BSS and Celestines join the tanky Canonnes, Priest, and one of each Elite Character in the Rhinos and go hunting.
Each of these units can Holy Trinity keeping them pretty versatile.
Everything else is pretty self explanatory.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm really, really liking the idea of the tanky Cannoness. 2+/4++/5+++ , ignores AP -1/-2, only wounded on a 4+, that can regen D3 a turn and come back to life via CP.
Yes please. My necrons wish they can access such reiliency.
At that point a single CP or MD to not fail the last armor save when you're down to 2 HP could save the tank and make your opponent really sad that he didn't kill a bunch of infantry instead.
(Or if you're me, you probably fail 10+ of those armor saves because I can't roll :( )
not 100% sold on this lsit but it seems like it gives me lots of toys to play with
Absolutely. Should be pretty easy to get up and running, too. Sounds like you probably already have everything except the Mortifiers. You going to convert them up or wait for the kits?
not 100% sold on this lsit but it seems like it gives me lots of toys to play with
Absolutely. Should be pretty easy to get up and running, too. Sounds like you probably already have everything except the Mortifiers. You going to convert them up or wait for the kits?
actually I don't have anything, I've been holding off getting into sisters until they where plastic (I take the bus to get around and carting around a buncha metal minis would be a pain) but yeah, by my calc I'll need 6 sisters boxes, 3 exorcist kits, another cannoness, celestine *edits christmas list* and... I'm gonna pessimisticly assume the pentinet engines/mortificers are sold 1 to a box so need 3 of those.
I figure I can space the purchases out over a 2 month period and figure on having the entire army assmbled by april. I'm thinking sisters will be good for a mix of contrast and normal paint. partiuclarly as I'm going with white armor. (not sure If I want blue or red robes yet)
Salted Diamond wrote: Do Imagifiers, Dialogus, and Hospitallars take up slots? I know they did in the Beta, but just want to make sure.
Yes they do. Repentia superior,arco flagelants and geminia don't if they meet requirement(not hard to guess which units you need to include to have them slot free)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tel11 wrote: How much CP will the army need to function? I have two armies in battle scribe, one is a brigade with more tools to use, and the other is brigade + battalion that loses tools to get 5 more CP.
Basicly, to those who've actually played the new DeX, is 15CP enough to run them, or do we really need 20?
I'm thinking 2 battallions or brigade should be enough. At least enough to try. Maybe brigade+1CP one but that's more of getting bloody rose for zephyr etc than CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With new CA maelstrom got interesting twist where you use deck of 18 cards you select. While you can build it after seeing opponent list I expect most of the time it\s similar every time. With Necrons I had easier time building list but sisters actually have good faction goals so had harder time trimming deck...Anyway here\s what I came up with:
Secure 1-6. Easy ones generally and sisters are good at board control I think with large numbers
Defend 1-6: As above. Generally for me objective missions are the bread and butter. New rules on maelstrom also gives more control as well and less of "the one opponent is swarming over is the one I need to defend" issues.
That dealt 12 cards. For remaining 6 I came up with the blood of martyrs(things die. Period), trust in emperor(with beacon of faith I'm already doing 2 and if I can't kill 1 unit at least....), supremacy(again scoring objectives should be relatively easy with sisters), overwhelming firepower(most of casualties I expect to do with guns), leap of faith(this is easy. And with good spread of simulcraums and cherbus even that 6 acts of faith in one turn for whopping 3+d3(so flat 5 generally here) isn't unreasonable. Scoring 5 at once is pretty big and might be worth sacrificing cherubs at once even just to get random bolter shots auto hit if nothing else...) and no prisoners for additional killing based that can also be done with shooting.
Anybody else has given any thought on this? Think above is fairly balanced one that should play on sister defence. possible swaps are witch hunter especially vs thousand sons and grey knights. And with Inquisitor allies master of the warp becomes easy.
Actually looking forward to try the new maelstrom missions.
Anyone else trying to do lists on battlescribe but there are some missing options?? I can't see Arco Flagellants anywhere on there. And I can't seem to give my cannonness the 9 inch aura rod thing.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone else trying to do lists on battlescribe but there are some missing options?? I can't see Arco Flagellants anywhere on there. And I can't seem to give my cannonness the 9 inch aura rod thing.
For aura thing you mean rod of office you get with power weapon/bolt gun? For that at least on PC you need to first give bolt gun with the CHECKBOX(not the ranged option select options) and power sword. IF you give power sword and then one of the radio button bolt guns it doesn't work. Really sucky system. No idea why they did it like this. Hopefully they improve it.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone else trying to do lists on battlescribe but there are some missing options?? I can't see Arco Flagellants anywhere on there. And I can't seem to give my cannonness the 9 inch aura rod thing.
About the canoness: If you equip her with boltgun and powersword, the rod appears at the top of her options.
The Arco-flaggelants (and a few other options) dissapear if you add a Missionary to your list. That seems like a bug to me :-D
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone else trying to do lists on battlescribe but there are some missing options?? I can't see Arco Flagellants anywhere on there. And I can't seem to give my cannonness the 9 inch aura rod thing.
About the canoness: If you equip her with boltgun and powersword, the rod appears at the top of her options.
The Arco-flaggelants (and a few other options) dissapear if you add a Missionary to your list. That seems like a bug to me :-D
Check above for uncategorized. At least I got the repentia there when I added repentia superior. This way they don't take elite slot. Guess BS doesn't support them being in elite category AND not take slot if other unit present so they instead have unit in category X dissapear and in category Y appear if another unit is in list.
And bolt gun specifically need to be checkbox one and not radio button one on desktop version
Cheers guys I've got it now, just trying to work out the rough points of the boxed set and planning my next purchase when they get released in January! Probably pick up another box of battle sisters to start off with.
Tad over 400 pts for the boxed set IF you go for wysiwyg(but atm illegal) loadout for the canones(power sword, plasma pistol, rod. Legally you would neeed boltgun rather than plasma pistol but I'm 100% sure GW will errata that configuration to be legal).
Think you'll need bit more than 1 squad If you are starting small 2 boxes of basic sisters, imagifier, another canoness or missionary and exorcist would be my route to go. Seraphim for special pistols but they probably are wave 2 releases so not coming in january.
Tel11 wrote: How much CP will the army need to function? I have two armies in battle scribe, one is a brigade with more tools to use, and the other is brigade + battalion that loses tools to get 5 more CP.
Basicly, to those who've actually played the new DeX, is 15CP enough to run them, or do we really need 20?
Depending on what you're sacrificing, it may be better to go Brigade/Battalion. I've had enough games where I've found myself spending CPs I don't have to spare with the Codex, and our ability to do stuff falls off significantly when we run out.
Tel11 wrote: How much CP will the army need to function? I have two armies in battle scribe, one is a brigade with more tools to use, and the other is brigade + battalion that loses tools to get 5 more CP.
Basicly, to those who've actually played the new DeX, is 15CP enough to run them, or do we really need 20?
Depending on what you're sacrificing, it may be better to go Brigade/Battalion. I've had enough games where I've found myself spending CPs I don't have to spare with the Codex, and our ability to do stuff falls off significantly when we run out.
It really depends on how your game is going I've found. A lot of our strats feel like contingency plans. Like "whoops, repentia fluffed, activate mortal wounds on death/extra attack" or "exorcist fluffes its number of shots, reroll" or "canonnes got kelermorph'd, better resurrect her". Given how consistant the army can roll via Moment Of Grace and MD and normal CP rerolls I feel like you're generally wanting CPs as an insurance policy rather than what we rely on to work.
Tel11 wrote: How much CP will the army need to function? I have two armies in battle scribe, one is a brigade with more tools to use, and the other is brigade + battalion that loses tools to get 5 more CP.
Basicly, to those who've actually played the new DeX, is 15CP enough to run them, or do we really need 20?
Depending on what you're sacrificing, it may be better to go Brigade/Battalion. I've had enough games where I've found myself spending CPs I don't have to spare with the Codex, and our ability to do stuff falls off significantly when we run out.
It really depends on how your game is going I've found. A lot of our strats feel like contingency plans. Like "whoops, repentia fluffed, activate mortal wounds on death/extra attack" or "exorcist fluffes its number of shots, reroll" or "canonnes got kelermorph'd, better resurrect her". Given how consistant the army can roll via Moment Of Grace and MD and normal CP rerolls I feel like you're generally wanting CPs as an insurance policy rather than what we rely on to work.
In the case of Devasting Refrain, you have to preempt a bad roll on the Exorcist...
But I've found 13 CPs(15) don't last as long as we actually want them too.
tneva82 wrote: Tad over 400 pts for the boxed set IF you go for wysiwyg(but atm illegal) loadout for the canones(power sword, plasma pistol, rod. Legally you would neeed boltgun rather than plasma pistol but I'm 100% sure GW will errata that configuration to be legal).
Think you'll need bit more than 1 squad If you are starting small 2 boxes of basic sisters, imagifier, another canoness or missionary and exorcist would be my route to go. Seraphim for special pistols but they probably are wave 2 releases so not coming in january.
I'm thinking at least 2 more boxes of Sisters to be able to run the 6 troops choices (would have been nice to have a different troops option but that's fine). Maybe another to build up with other special weapons an use as whatever is required at the time. I've got the BSF space-pope for a 2nd HQ, but think converting up some dishevelled priests from the Flagellants kit could be fun. I'm a big fan of both the new vehicles, but might wait and see how the new Rhino comes out (or if it's just a topless option for the other 2 tanks) before getting any. Considering modding the Seraphim in the starter box for Inferno Pistols (as a BA player with lots of Death Company, I've got a few spare) but not sure yet. Would like to bulk out my Repentia's but thinking the new box will be a squad of 9 and a whip lady, so looking at 3rd party options. Would like more Penitent Engines, or the Sister ones (Mortifiers?) but worry they'll be expensive to build a squad of them. Other than that, I'm looking at options for Crusaders and Death Cult Assassins, just because I like all the rabble.
Here's a question for all that might help guide my thinking. Assume a battalion is the default, since our HQ is solid and our Troops pretty adaptable...
Which Orders are the strongest candidates for dropping down to a Vanguard, Spearhead, etc... that is, which Orders mainly buff an Elite, Fast, or Heavy while doing less for Troops?
Likewise, which Orders are the strongest candidates for moving up to a Brigade, that is, their Conviction buffs multiple battlefield roles, creates new opportunities for all those extra Troops, can merit an extra Canoness, etc.?
MacPhail wrote: Here's a question for all that might help guide my thinking. Assume a battalion is the default, since our HQ is solid and our Troops pretty adaptable...
Which Orders are the strongest candidates for dropping down to a Vanguard, Spearhead, etc... that is, which Orders mainly buff an Elite, Fast, or Heavy while doing less for Troops?
Likewise, which Orders are the strongest candidates for moving up to a Brigade, that is, their Conviction buffs multiple battlefield roles, creates new opportunities for all those extra Troops, can merit an extra Canoness, etc.?
Vanquard: Bloody rose. Zephyr, repentia...Close combat festival.
Spearhead: Retributors benefit from argent shroud or valorous heart. Exorcist valorous heart.
Outrider: Dominions shroud or valorous heart both work nicely. Seraphim I think bloody rose(extra AP for pistols).
For brigade shroud and valorous heart would be my go-to. Generally those 2 are pretty darn good for any detachment barring h2h choppity chop units.
MacPhail wrote: Here's a question for all that might help guide my thinking. Assume a battalion is the default, since our HQ is solid and our Troops pretty adaptable...
Which Orders are the strongest candidates for dropping down to a Vanguard, Spearhead, etc... that is, which Orders mainly buff an Elite, Fast, or Heavy while doing less for Troops?
Likewise, which Orders are the strongest candidates for moving up to a Brigade, that is, their Conviction buffs multiple battlefield roles, creates new opportunities for all those extra Troops, can merit an extra Canoness, etc.?
Bloody Rose probably works best as a Vanguard and I could see a case for a Ebon Chalice Spearhead (If you have plans to gain all the Miracle Dice.)
Valorous Heart and Argent Shroud are the obvious choices for a Brigade and I don't think the others do enough enough to support that investment.
MacPhail wrote: Here's a question for all that might help guide my thinking. Assume a battalion is the default, since our HQ is solid and our Troops pretty adaptable...
Which Orders are the strongest candidates for dropping down to a Vanguard, Spearhead, etc... that is, which Orders mainly buff an Elite, Fast, or Heavy while doing less for Troops?
Likewise, which Orders are the strongest candidates for moving up to a Brigade, that is, their Conviction buffs multiple battlefield roles, creates new opportunities for all those extra Troops, can merit an extra Canoness, etc.?
Vanquard: Bloody rose. Zephyr, repentia...Close combat festival.
Spearhead: Retributors benefit from argent shroud or valorous heart. Exorcist valorous heart.
Outrider: Dominions shroud or valorous heart both work nicely. Seraphim I think bloody rose(extra AP for pistols).
For brigade shroud and valorous heart would be my go-to. Generally those 2 are pretty darn good for any detachment barring h2h choppity chop units.
My .02
While I agree BR works best for a vanguard, I also think it is the single most CP-hungry order, because typically that's how you get functional close combat in 8th: Bring a bunch of units, get 1 unit in where it needs to be, spend all your CP on making that unit fight twice with bonus attacks and deal mortal wounds when they die etc etc etc so you kill like 750 points of your opponent's army with that one unit.
In general, I think Sisters are one of the least CP intensive armies out there and honestly I think if you had a good miracle dice engine setup you could make them work with 9CP (battalion+1 other detachment). There's no super duper necessary relics/WL traits that you HAVE to have, there's no units that just don't function unless you use their special stratagem every turn.
Argent Shroud or Valorous Heart would be the go-tos in my book for a Brigade army setup, the basic sisters squads there seem like they'd be aces. I think for Martyred Lady and Sacred Rose you'd want to be running bigger squads so a battalion would be better. Bloody Rose almost certainly wants to bring a battalion of Val Heart or Argent Shroud and then use them as a battery to fuel the BR stuff which would be in a vanguard.
Ebon chalice...the only thing I'd think to use them for is like a trio of exorcists parked near the triumph for super miracle dice generation, so I guess they would like to be a spearhead.
Well bloody rose stratagem is 1CP and not neccessarily even needed all the time. And while certainly there's the 3CP fight twice for repentia again it might not be needed and sometime scan be even bad when you end up killing too much and being open to shooting. And on some armies you can be happy with just being in combat.
But certainly something to keep in mind. Other orders for zephyr's and repentia? Well valorous heart is 100% useless(7+ armour. lol) for repentia so not that. Ebon chalice could be useful for those longbomb charges out of deep strikes though for only one unit. Shroud...Well zephyr's likely coming out of DS. Repentia could benefit if they aren't running in rhino. Generally I don't see any except bloody rose that really helps the choppity chop units. I would rather just not use the 3CP stratagem cutting down on CP exhaustion.
tneva82 wrote: Well bloody rose stratagem is 1CP and not neccessarily even needed all the time. And while certainly there's the 3CP fight twice for repentia again it might not be needed and sometime scan be even bad when you end up killing too much and being open to shooting. And on some armies you can be happy with just being in combat.
But certainly something to keep in mind. Other orders for zephyr's and repentia? Well valorous heart is 100% useless(7+ armour. lol) for repentia so not that. Ebon chalice could be useful for those longbomb charges out of deep strikes though for only one unit. Shroud...Well zephyr's likely coming out of DS. Repentia could benefit if they aren't running in rhino. Generally I don't see any except bloody rose that really helps the choppity chop units. I would rather just not use the 3CP stratagem cutting down on CP exhaustion.
In my experience, being in combat in 8th offers basically no safety at all. Leaving units alive means your close combat unit dies for nothing, and it's at the point where a basic spess mehrine with a gun that shoots out to 30" can deal more damage to you if you charge into him than if you just let him keep gaking out bolt shots at you from cover.
So basically, if I have a fight twice stratagem, I'm likely to use it unless I only have a few scattered models or I'm really actually safe (like I've somehow surrounded a rhino).
Tear them down then fight twice with +1 to wound is 100% what I'd be trying to do with bloody rose. You don't need to have CPs left if you've taken out a huge chunk of the enemy army.
Believe me, dude, I've been playing melee armies since the start of the edition, I know. Tripointing is something I can do with Wyches and other chaff type melee units. If I charge 8 repentia into 10 Primaris marines and kill 6 of them, I can either tripoint them and lose 4 of my repentia to the return swings, or I can fight again, wipe them out, and tag a few more units with the pile in to force them to fall back on my turn.
The strategy of "tripoint a guy, keep your melee unit safe for a turn, and fight again next turn" does not work with shock assault marines running around.
Believe me, dude, I've been playing melee armies since the start of the edition, I know. Tripointing is something I can do with Wyches and other chaff type melee units. If I charge 8 repentia into 10 Primaris marines and kill 6 of them, I can either tripoint them and lose 4 of my repentia to the return swings, or I can fight again, wipe them out, and tag a few more units with the pile in to force them to fall back on my turn.
The strategy of "tripoint a guy, keep your melee unit safe for a turn, and fight again next turn" does not work with shock assault marines running around.
You lose the four repentia before you get to swing again anyway though?
4 primaris marines are hardly worth 3/4 cp though...if that's best i can come up with for cp it's very inefficient. I don't have dozens and dozens of cp to kill primaris at the rate of primaris per cp especially just to save after they whiffed big time if they failed to wipe out squad anyway.
Better use for fight twice is tripoint something. That is worth cp. Not 4 primaris
Just to answer the CP question, I use 20 and I usually burn through them by Turn 3.
Some of our stratagems are reactive, but when they're used they're GOOD. Like "Divine Intervention" or "Moment of Grace". Both of those have been super useful for me to recycle Miracle Dice and still do some pretty miraculous things.
Others, though, are simply fantastic. Blessed Bolts, the advance-and-charge one, the fall-back-and-act-normally one, Storm of Retribution, the one that lets you reroll one of your Sacred Rites (since I roll and take 2), all that stuff eats my CP.
I dunno, I like Outrider/Seraphim for the Bloody Rose as well, especially if you are running a Brigade of another order. so after they drop and melta something and shoot something else, they can charge and clean up. Or charge in and help support the Zephyrs, and get closer to more enemies for the next turn (should they survive, but if they are shooting your Seraphim, they aren't shooting something else!)
Believe me, dude, I've been playing melee armies since the start of the edition, I know. Tripointing is something I can do with Wyches and other chaff type melee units. If I charge 8 repentia into 10 Primaris marines and kill 6 of them, I can either tripoint them and lose 4 of my repentia to the return swings, or I can fight again, wipe them out, and tag a few more units with the pile in to force them to fall back on my turn.
The strategy of "tripoint a guy, keep your melee unit safe for a turn, and fight again next turn" does not work with shock assault marines running around.
You don't tripoint the unit you're charging, I thought. You pile in, tag, and consolidate around an adjacent unit, right?
Believe me, dude, I've been playing melee armies since the start of the edition, I know. Tripointing is something I can do with Wyches and other chaff type melee units. If I charge 8 repentia into 10 Primaris marines and kill 6 of them, I can either tripoint them and lose 4 of my repentia to the return swings, or I can fight again, wipe them out, and tag a few more units with the pile in to force them to fall back on my turn.
The strategy of "tripoint a guy, keep your melee unit safe for a turn, and fight again next turn" does not work with shock assault marines running around.
You don't tripoint the unit you're charging, I thought. You pile in, tag, and consolidate around an adjacent unit, right?
You could, but unless you're talking about vehicles, most space marine gunline units can perform ninja taekwondo and make the same number of attacks as an ork choppa boy. When you tag them, you just eat 18 S4 Ap- melee attacks. This is fine if you're a unit with some durability or are cheap and disposable enough that stopping that unit from shooting is worth the squad's death over two rounds, like most glass cannon melee units aren't, but we are talking about repentia.
And yeah, I'll stop talking exclusively about the matchup vs Space Marines when they stop making up 75% of the playerbase at the competitive level :/
Believe me, dude, I've been playing melee armies since the start of the edition, I know. Tripointing is something I can do with Wyches and other chaff type melee units. If I charge 8 repentia into 10 Primaris marines and kill 6 of them, I can either tripoint them and lose 4 of my repentia to the return swings, or I can fight again, wipe them out, and tag a few more units with the pile in to force them to fall back on my turn.
The strategy of "tripoint a guy, keep your melee unit safe for a turn, and fight again next turn" does not work with shock assault marines running around.
You don't tripoint the unit you're charging, I thought. You pile in, tag, and consolidate around an adjacent unit, right?
You could, but unless you're talking about vehicles, most space marine gunline units can perform ninja taekwondo and make the same number of attacks as an ork choppa boy. When you tag them, you just eat 18 S4 Ap- melee attacks. This is fine if you're a unit with some durability or are cheap and disposable enough that stopping that unit from shooting is worth the squad's death over two rounds, like most glass cannon melee units aren't, but we are talking about repentia.
And yeah, I'll stop talking exclusively about the matchup vs Space Marines when they stop making up 75% of the playerbase at the competitive level :/
I think putting marines as the baseline is the best idea. They are the only generalist army that is a threat in close combat and they are TOUGH. If you're throwing repentia at guardsman you're wasting them. If you're throwing them at Banshees or Wyches they are likely going to get hurt real quick.
I think its funny that sisters are an army that would rather use its pistols in CC than make normal attacks!
Waaaghpower wrote: Played a game today, so I have some real experience instead of just personal theorycrafting:
Triumph underperformed pretty badly. The extra Miracle Dice was handy, but I'd have been better off ditching her and shaving points elsewhere to get another Battalion.
Celestine still does work, and her significantly improved Warlord Trait makes her a good choice for Warlord.
So, you took Celestine and the Triumph in the same list?
Yes. I recognize that this isn't the most tactically sound decision since they're both expensive centerpiece models, but I wanted to get a feel for how they both played and it was an experimental practice game.
While I agree BR works best for a vanguard, I also think it is the single most CP-hungry order, because typically that's how you get functional close combat in 8th: Bring a bunch of units, get 1 unit in where it needs to be, spend all your CP on making that unit fight twice with bonus attacks and deal mortal wounds when they die etc etc etc so you kill like 750 points of your opponent's army with that one unit.
In general, I think Sisters are one of the least CP intensive armies out there and honestly I think if you had a good miracle dice engine setup you could make them work with 9CP (battalion+1 other detachment). There's no super duper necessary relics/WL traits that you HAVE to have, there's no units that just don't function unless you use their special stratagem every turn.
Argent Shroud or Valorous Heart would be the go-tos in my book for a Brigade army setup, the basic sisters squads there seem like they'd be aces. I think for Martyred Lady and Sacred Rose you'd want to be running bigger squads so a battalion would be better. Bloody Rose almost certainly wants to bring a battalion of Val Heart or Argent Shroud and then use them as a battery to fuel the BR stuff which would be in a vanguard.
Ebon chalice...the only thing I'd think to use them for is like a trio of exorcists parked near the triumph for super miracle dice generation, so I guess they would like to be a spearhead.
I feel I need to make a few points here...
The first being that a good Miracle dice builds is probably our most CP intensive build you can do. Imho, Becon and Litanies of Faith on a hidden, Exocist supporting, WL Canoness aren't optional if you're going down that path. Plus whatever WL trait and relic you actually want. Maybe the addition of Brazier of Eternal Flame in the matchups that it's relevant.
Then the addition of Moment of Grace, Divine Intervention for when your opponent figures out how your list works and stars picking it apart adds up faster than anything short the most Cavalier of BR detachments.
Which kind of ties into my other point, I don't think you need to spend a lot of CPs to make BR detachments work. (Though I may end up a fan of Holy Rage+Beneficence, and to bring it full circle, Repentia generate Miracle Dice when they get wiped our in any non-morale phase.)
Lammia, scotsman, and tneva, many thanks... that's exactly what I was hoping for. I think I'll leave Argent Shround on the shelf for my first few outings. I tried building a Valorous Heart Brigade and a Bloody Rose Outrider, but the six Fast choices forced Dominions I didn't really want and couldn't mobilize properly. So I flipped them to a BR Brigade and a VH Spearhead and it works better with my collection, with Exorcists, Retributers, and Penitents filling the six Heavy slots. I also like that the two melee Canonessses, Imagifier, and Celestians share an Order with Seraphim and lots of cheap bodies.
Everything is a minimum size except the big Seraphim squad. They escort Celestine while the smaller Seraphim deep strikes. Two Rhinos rush upfield, one with melta Sisters and heavy flamer Rets, the other with melta Sisters and a selections of Characters, probably one Canoness, the Imagifier, and the Preacher, with the Celestians jogging behind to tank wounds ones they unload. Everyone else advances on foot with the second Canoness and Missionary. I think I choose Hand of the Emperor, and I think this army wants to go second. I've got reasonably good targets for Blessed Bolts, Holy Trinity, and Miracle Dice. I can get it on the table ASAP by just building the Penitent from the new box.
While I agree BR works best for a vanguard, I also think it is the single most CP-hungry order, because typically that's how you get functional close combat in 8th: Bring a bunch of units, get 1 unit in where it needs to be, spend all your CP on making that unit fight twice with bonus attacks and deal mortal wounds when they die etc etc etc so you kill like 750 points of your opponent's army with that one unit.
In general, I think Sisters are one of the least CP intensive armies out there and honestly I think if you had a good miracle dice engine setup you could make them work with 9CP (battalion+1 other detachment). There's no super duper necessary relics/WL traits that you HAVE to have, there's no units that just don't function unless you use their special stratagem every turn.
Argent Shroud or Valorous Heart would be the go-tos in my book for a Brigade army setup, the basic sisters squads there seem like they'd be aces. I think for Martyred Lady and Sacred Rose you'd want to be running bigger squads so a battalion would be better. Bloody Rose almost certainly wants to bring a battalion of Val Heart or Argent Shroud and then use them as a battery to fuel the BR stuff which would be in a vanguard.
Ebon chalice...the only thing I'd think to use them for is like a trio of exorcists parked near the triumph for super miracle dice generation, so I guess they would like to be a spearhead.
I feel I need to make a few points here...
The first being that a good Miracle dice builds is probably our most CP intensive build you can do. Imho, Becon and Litanies of Faith on a hidden, Exocist supporting, WL Canoness aren't optional if you're going down that path. Plus whatever WL trait and relic you actually want. Maybe the addition of Brazier of Eternal Flame in the matchups that it's relevant.
Then the addition of Moment of Grace, Divine Intervention for when your opponent figures out how your list works and stars picking it apart adds up faster than anything short the most Cavalier of BR detachments.
Which kind of ties into my other point, I don't think you need to spend a lot of CPs to make BR detachments work. (Though I may end up a fan of Holy Rage+Beneficence, and to bring it full circle, Repentia generate Miracle Dice when they get wiped our in any non-morale phase.)
Respectfully I disagree. Litany canoness with Beacon, honestly I can take or leave every other WL trait if I'm not running a melee build for my army. 50 points for a shrine is no brainer. Then I throw St. Kath in there to make sure I have a Simulacrum on all my Exorcists, and I clump the little crew up behind the Battle Sanctum and any other handy piece of terrain ends up in my deployment zone. I'm definitely running Ebon Chalice and throwing Terrible Knowledge on my real warlord, but that one comes with D3 bonus CPs anyway, so it's not a CP drain at all and it's probably a benefit.
I'm now generating 4 miracle dice per turn passively, 1 of them is an auto-6, and I'm probably pairing that trio of exorcists up with some high value rhinos/Immos with Ebon Chalice heavy flamer rets or bloody rose repentia.
I don't think I'd need divine intervention. If someone killed my stand in the back canoness turn 2 because I made a mistake or they had some trick up their sleeve, fine she's gone. If the whole engine lasts til turn 2, I think I've generated enough miracle dice for the whole game.
Came up with list. I like most of it but can't see how to really squeeze in a 15 SoB squad.
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adepta Sororitas) [42 PL, 8CP, 864pts] ++
Any particular reason you WANT 15 strong squad? Looks like you have plenty of girls already and you don't get any more special weapons in bigger squad. And your morale will start to be issue. Was there any stratagem you were planning to utilize? As far as I'm concerned 5 strong squads are better than 15.
Any else feeling iffy about Seraphim? As an eldar player I can tell you 4 melta shots really don't deliver the way you want too, and all too often just whiff and then get smashed the next turn because you had to deep strike them. Its statistically not killing a rhino a turn and costs CP to do it? Just feels like a poor choice I'm having trouble justifying.
Anyone try them out with the new DeX? How'd they do?
I thought you couldn't take the zephyrim banner unless the superior took a chainsword? Yet another one of the incredibly asinine requirements probably based on only the chainsword having a scabbard for her to hold the banner or something stupid like that.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I thought you couldn't take the zephyrim banner unless the superior took a chainsword? Yet another one of the incredibly asinine requirements probably based on only the chainsword having a scabbard for her to hold the banner or something stupid like that.
If she has bolt pistol she can take the banner. Basically "don't replace bolt pistol with plasma pistol and you can take the banner".
There's no way for her to even take chainsword. All models are armed with power sword. Superior can replace bolt pistol with the plasma pistol or banner.
The Inferno Seraphim's deal is pretty much tied to Deadly Decent, I think.
In my mind it's kinda like dropping in a 4xFusion Tau Commander and people like doing that! (Heck, the Seraphim unit even comes with some ablative wounds!)
If something has to die, you've potentially got a movement-phase Miracle Dice to use on damage.
Or, if you don't have a high MD you can tweak your hit/wound rate by Moment of Grace. Or even Faith and Furry to make sure you hit and wound just about everything with your 3 or 4 value MD.
Is 3CP worth Deadly Decent + Faith and Fury to make at least one hit/wound with a melta that you can MD to 6 damage? Might be against some targets.
I also think there's Holy Trinity Potential with them for certain kinds of targets.
MrMoustaffa wrote: I thought you couldn't take the zephyrim banner unless the superior took a chainsword? Yet another one of the incredibly asinine requirements probably based on only the chainsword having a scabbard for her to hold the banner or something stupid like that.
If she has bolt pistol she can take the banner. Basically "don't replace bolt pistol with plasma pistol and you can take the banner".
There's no way for her to even take chainsword. All models are armed with power sword. Superior can replace bolt pistol with the plasma pistol or banner.
My bad, thanks for the clarification. So it's a stupid and asinine wargear restriction as to whether or not she gets to take the banner, but it's not the one I thought it was, got it.
I really hope this isn't a trend. I don't want tech priest dominus only getting rerolls if they take the stubber or repair if they take phosphor or other stupid things like that.
Yea that is a tough amount of CP to potentially pump into a unit just to make them at par. If the Seraphim strat made their guns 12" till the end of the turn, it would be worth but unless I find I'm just taking in miracle dice by turn 2 it's hard to justify as anything other than rule of cool.
tneva82 wrote: Any particular reason you WANT 15 strong squad? Looks like you have plenty of girls already and you don't get any more special weapons in bigger squad. And your morale will start to be issue. Was there any stratagem you were planning to utilize? As far as I'm concerned 5 strong squads are better than 15.
It just feels weird not having a big squad & fragile. But I haven’t played sisters since 5 edition (back then it was all 10 woman squads).
Automatically Appended Next Post: If Seraphim are a liability, I’d drop down to 1 Seraphim squad & I’d swap for a vanguard detachment & add repentia in a rhino. It may need some playing around to fit them in.
MrMoustaffa wrote: My bad, thanks for the clarification. So it's a stupid and asinine wargear restriction as to whether or not she gets to take the banner, but it's not the one I thought it was, got it.
I really hope this isn't a trend. I don't want tech priest dominus only getting rerolls if they take the stubber or repair if they take phosphor or other stupid things like that.
Agreed. At least this one is minor one(would be way more annoying if she had to downgrade her weapon from standard power weapon to chainsword...) but still...What on earth PLASMA PISTOL makes you unable to have a banner? Gee. I'm guessing the banner will be sculpted to arm with bolt pistol held in arm or something.
tneva82 wrote: Any particular reason you WANT 15 strong squad? Looks like you have plenty of girls already and you don't get any more special weapons in bigger squad. And your morale will start to be issue. Was there any stratagem you were planning to utilize? As far as I'm concerned 5 strong squads are better than 15.
It just feels weird not having a big squad & fragile. But I haven’t played sisters since 5 edition (back then it was all 10 woman squads).
Fraqile? It's the bigger squads that are fraqile. Same toughness, same save, same amount of wounds for cost but you will be suffering casualties from morale as well.
That's why I asked about stratagems. Obviously bigger squad is more efficient with stratagem. Generally bigger squad needs reason and the reason is stratagem efficiency. There's some merit for big melee squads to limit intercept sttratagem efficiency but BSS aren't exactly melee squads.
edit: checked celestian statline as elsewhere there was discussion on them.BS was right and they did have 2 attacks. That's pretty sweet. So for 1 pts you get better WS, extra attack, reroll all hits near canoness and the bodyguard. Only issue they have is inferior bodyguard vs tau drones but tau drones are the exception and that they are elite rather than troops so that's 7th infantry squad you commit to. At least bodyguard is "can" so if you get hit by lascannon you can let the canoness take the hit(and say MD that lascannon) rather than suffer tons of MW's if you deem celestians more useful to keep around.
If they were troops I would be spamming celestians FOR SURE.
Fraqile? It's the bigger squads that are fraqile. Same toughness, same save, same amount of wounds for cost but you will be suffering casualties from morale as well.
Sisters have plenty of ways to dodge morale mechanics. Sacred Rose definitely benefits large squads, and there is some good synergism there. Large squads protect and better utilize Symalctums and cherubs better which in turn allow you to burst with CP better, and use more miracle dice on that sacred rose unit that will then give you more back in return.
15 Sacred Rose sisters geared for holy trinity in one way or another would be my best bet. Nasty overwatch too
Our martyred lady benefits from large squads (and small, they are good candidate of mixed MSU's and blobs).
How you plan to use more md on bigger squad? More bolters don't benefit from md as even with banner max 2 shots gets md. 2 meltagun is ideal as you can use md for both shots. Long shot charges yeah bigger squad helps more but gee bss arn't often doing 9+ charges.
Stratagems i admitted in first reply. That's why i asked any stratagem in mind. But unless you are planning stratagems in advance better survivability and more big guns better
Not saying big squads are bad but need specific combo to be worth it. Multiple huge squads under celestine or specif stratagem you plan to use from getgo(like shoot twice on ork lootas) etc
Help me check my thinking on Miracle Dice and squad upgrades here...
Let's say I have two BSS, each with melta/melta/combi-melta (which I'm thinking I'll do now that Dominions aren't the obvious melta-bearers they once were). I move them into range any way I can (Argent Shroud, Hand of the Emperor, packed into Rhinos, etc.) and the Shooting Phase rolls around...
I have a Simulacrum Imperialis on one of the squads. I use a MD on the other squad as my once per phase, and then the Simulacrum allows me to use a second one in the same phase. Both dice come from my pool, and I probably use them for damage assuming each squad generates a hit and a wound.
Now I run the same two squads with Incensor Cherubs. The Cherub text says I sacrifice them at the start of the phase, so now I have dedicated MD, slightly better than average and not from my pool. Does the first one count as my once per phase and does my second one require the Simulacrum, or could I use two in a phase just because of how the Cherub text is worded (only for that unit, and only in that phase)? Could I use a first MD (a third) from my pool and then use the two from the Cherubs for a total of three in a phase, or would that require a second Simulacrum?
My current thinking is that I need (across my two melta units) two Cherubs and one Simulacrum to get two better-than-average MDs in the Shooting phase, but couldn't use a third from my pool just because of the Cherubs (wording on the Cherub being "only" rather than "must"). If I bought a second Simulacrum I could potentially do one elsewhere first using a single MD from the pool (like for Exorcist damage) and then the two melta squads with their upgrades. Am I right on this? Is there a better way to load MDs into the Shooting phase?
Cherub just gives you extra md. Not chance to use act of faith. So if you trigger cherub, use act of faith with other unit and try to use act with chbrub unit you need banner or some other source to get additional act of faith.
Alternatively cherub squad could use one act for melta 1, then with banner act for melta 2. Next squad could only act once with banner then
tneva82 wrote: Cherub just gives you extra md. Not chance to use act of faith. So if you trigger cherub, use act of faith with other unit and try to use act with chbrub unit you need banner or some other source to get additional act of faith.
Alternatively cherub squad could use one act for melta 1, then with banner act for melta 2. Next squad could only act once with banner then
the right way to imagine it, is you get one miracle per phase, thats it
A simulacrum lets you use one miracle per phase for that unit, ignoring other limitations.
The wording isn't 100% clear if a simulacrum lets a unit use two acts of faith in a phase if they were also the first to use one, but since it isn't game breaking or even very useful thats the way ive been using it.
cherub just gives you a dice as listed, but it can only be used by the offended unit and only in that phase
After a few more test games here are my thoughts -
I really like Bloody Rose Zephyrim a lot. They will kill almost anything. I kind of want to run 30 of them, I wish they could take another weaponpon other than a bolt pistol and/or fight twice.
A Bloody Rose Canoness with the Beneficence and Righteous Rage is a murder machine. I wish she could take a jump pack. Maybe PA4/5, whichever one we are in.
Celestine really is starting to feel like a waste of points. 2/3+ (Depending on Cover) and 5++ (For Seraphim/Zephyrim)/6++ is good enough. If she had an additional wound/attack or her bubble effected tanks than maybe she'd be worth 160 but right now she doesn't feel it and it sucks because she is so iconic. I would rather have 9 more Zephyrim than her.
With the buffs to marine dreads in Chapter Approved I'm also really starting to feel Exorcists are liability. I'm debating not taking any and taking Multi Melta Retributers. Yeah you lose some range but you pick up a lot in terms of survivability (10 woman squads) and it has similar damage output with the stratagem and the Simulacrum.
I have to agree with you on many points Rhynner.
Finally had some games too. Played VH brigade with an BR vanguard.
BR Canonesse:
She is absolutely hilarious for her 45 points.
Celestine:
You really don't take her for her dmg. The 4++ to our jump pack girls is huge the right match up.
Also she is a single model on a small 32mm base. So you can use here to fly forward 18" with a MD and charge 2d6 (possible high number again with MD) to tie something up.
Also our two other main HQs namely Missionary and Canonesse have diminishing returns so another option is nice.
Exorcist vs MM rets:
Few pages I made a similar observation. Exorcist just die in the current meta not just to marines but also Eldar for example. Rets in cover with VH and an imagifier are pretty tanky, especially considering ablative wounds.
What I don't like is the cost of them... A fully kitted out squad is 200+ pts. I might just run 2 or 3 MM. Also what's your guys opinion on the banner? I feel like it is a nobrainer for 5 pts, especially when having multiple melta squads like retributors and seraphim.
Another downside is they can get pretty cp expensive with Storm of Retribution
Other observations I made during my games:
We are much more CP starved than MD. I definitely was too conservative with the latter.
Our army likes to be close together, so avoid splitting up as far as the mission and your opponent allows.
Exorcist vs MM rets:
Few pages I made a similar observation. Exorcist just die in the current meta not just to marines but also Eldar for example. Rets in cover with VH and an imagifier are pretty tanky, especially considering ablative wounds.
What I don't like is the cost of them... A fully kitted out squad is 200+ pts. I might just run 2 or 3 MM. Also what's your guys opinion on the banner? I feel like it is a nobrainer for 5 pts, especially when having multiple melta squads like retributors and seraphim.
Another downside is they can get pretty cp expensive with Storm of Retribution
It will take some experimentation
min squads with 2MM and 2 cherubs have 3 ablative bodies and are cheeeap, not bad, great for filling out a brigade
larger squads can move up with your forces to hold the farther-back objectives and still contribute rather than being stuck in cover or be evaporated
I am more apt to stack for maximum alpha strike in exchange for less long term damage, so min squads with meltas and maybe dropping multimeltas in regular squads if they are taking a banner/cherub
I might be more interested in exo's if cleaning flames worked on the S5 rockets
I really hope this isn't a trend. I don't want tech priest dominus only getting rerolls if they take the stubber or repair if they take phosphor or other stupid things like that.
It's clearly rules written to the limitations of the kit.
deviantduck wrote: I don't get it. How are you rationalizing that Retributors are more durable than Exorcists?
an exorcist is 170pts
a ret squad with 10 members, 2 multimeltas and 2 armorium cherubs and a banner are 169pts
ret squad can never take more than 1 damage from an attack, so it takes a minimum of 10 shots to kill them
an exorcist does not, so it will attract any/all multiwound weapons, thats a lot of weapons
rets are easy to give cover to, exo's need to be 50% concealed
as examples:
it takes 16 BS3 bolter shots to kill a ret in cover with a 6+++ so 160 bolter shots to kill a squad of rets in cover
There really aren't very many guns in the sweet spot of ap -3 or better AND shoot enough shots to annoy a bunch of cheap T3 models like a krast knight crusader is a monster anti tank weapon, but barely scratches the ret squad.
On the other hand, almost every heavy weapon that anyone is taking is presented a pretty good target in an exo, where the multidamage / high strength can quickly pay dividends, without that 4++ they aren't half a knight for half the points, they are more like 1/3rd of a knight for half the points, and many lists are removing a knight per turn these days.
Its not so much that rets are "so tough" on the books, its that they are cheaper than the weapons needed to remove them in significant enough numbers for the sisters player to care.
lash92 wrote: Exorcist vs MM rets:
Few pages I made a similar observation. Exorcist just die in the current meta not just to marines but also Eldar for example. Rets in cover with VH and an imagifier are pretty tanky, especially considering ablative wounds.
What I don't like is the cost of them... A fully kitted out squad is 200+ pts. I might just run 2 or 3 MM. Also what's your guys opinion on the banner? I feel like it is a nobrainer for 5 pts, especially when having multiple melta squads like retributors and seraphim.
Another downside is they can get pretty cp expensive with Storm of Retribution
With current meta being -2 high ROF weapons for AT the valorous heart exorcist will be quite tough. And you get 12 T8 wounds vs 9 T3 wounds for bit cheaper. And long range. No need to go within 24" to get average 6 shots vs 4. And CP cheap(pretty much no real CP usage)
With current meta being -2 high ROF weapons for AT the valorous heart exorcist will be quite tough. And you get 12 T8 wounds vs 9 T3 wounds for bit cheaper. And long range. No need to go within 24" to get average 6 shots vs 4. And CP cheap(pretty much no real CP usage)
it depends on how much damage those shots do
if its one, the exo wins out
if its more than that, the troops rapidly become tougher per-point
Well let's see. Current ever popular high ROF S5-6 -2 Dd3(let's say dam2 for ease of calculation). 0.2222 wounds per shot vs exorcist, 0.22222 for retributor(okay that's nice). More wounds for exorcist though and more shots.
Current meta exorcist valorous heart is saying "bwahaha" at them. Current meta is against high S high AP high damage low # shots. With inv saves everywhere and marines being the thing to beat high ROF medium AP is the king.
You also get to avoid some return fire and have easier time being able to hang back in cover due to your range.
It´s not like we dont have high strength high AP shots in the meta atm:
- Ironhand character dread + chaplain dreads with twin las.
- Eldar Flyer
- Tau Fusion
- Other Sisters player with exorcists
It would be funny to run them against tripple riptide tau though.
Also two big point in favor of rets:
- They ignore moving penalty
- They do not degrade!
tneva82 wrote: Well let's see. Current ever popular high ROF S5-6 -2 Dd3(let's say dam2 for ease of calculation). 0.2222 wounds per shot vs exorcist, 0.22222 for retributor(okay that's nice). More wounds for exorcist though and more shots.
okay, so under the ideal circumstances they break about even, while the rets come out way ahead against stuff like volcano cannons, castellions, ect. ect.
Ideal Circumstances would be a an S4 AP-3 D1 weapon.
Which doesn't exist at range, I believe. However, there is a S4 AP-3 D2 weapon-Stalker Bolt Rifle under Devastator Doctrine.
Each hit on a Retributor does...
2/3 wounds
5/6 failed saves
1 point of damage
5/9 wounds per hit
On an Exorcist, that's...
1/6 wounds
5/6 failed saves
2 points of damage
5/18 wounds per hit
Or twice as durable. Cover helps the Rets slightly (as it does the Exorcist, though it's less likely to get it) but it's DEFINITELY more durable, even without cover and Rets getting it.
I'm not sure an iron hands list with 30-60 stalker bolters isn't also going to have the firepower to handily pick up a knights worth of T8 wounds as well, probably in addition to
You could pull a few bodies out of one of your fast attack squads to fit another HQ choice in there and run a vanguard or heavy support detachment for an extra CP
Very solid list and pretty similar to the one I tested.
I made my Seraphim also VH so I can make a Brigade. Seems more efficient to have all those BSS being able to make use of ignoring -2 AP.
the_scotsman wrote: So....two meltas vs 3d3 krak missiles? Seems like a not great comparison.
4-6 melta shots w/ two miracle dice and +1 damage on one/ turn one vs 3d3 krak missiles
The important part is which can stay alive longer and keep grinding away at the opponent because thats how sisters win games.
tneva82 wrote: Well let's see. Current ever popular high ROF S5-6 -2 Dd3(let's say dam2 for ease of calculation). 0.2222 wounds per shot vs exorcist, 0.22222 for retributor(okay that's nice). More wounds for exorcist though and more shots.
Current meta exorcist valorous heart is saying "bwahaha" at them. Current meta is against high S high AP high damage low # shots. With inv saves everywhere and marines being the thing to beat high ROF medium AP is the king.
You also get to avoid some return fire and have easier time being able to hang back in cover due to your range.
I dunno, yes some meta lists are running lots of AP 2 but that's not all that's out there. What do you do when you encounter plasma, lascannons, Demolisher cannons, etc? They may not be "meta" entirely but they absolutely still exist, and many of the more common AT weapons that players own laugh at an exorcist.
It's not just about the tank itself either, but the rest of the list supporting it. You can make a leman Russ (same exact durability and cheaper pointswise) work because you're usually running a bunch of them along with other vehicles. These Exorcists, at least from a lot of the lists I see here, are alone. I know as a guard player I wouldn't trust 3 tanks to survive past turn 2, even with ignoring up to -2 AP. There's just nothing else to draw the fire from them. If the opponent needs them gone, they'll do so. The rest of your list is T3 sisters. Literally anything with multidamage will be pointed at them and it will add up fast. If you were running a mechanized list with rhinos, immolators, and mortifiers, that'd be one thing. But an on foot VH sisters army makes me think the answer is retributors. They're easier to hide, can get better invulns and cover, and help saturate your opponents target priority because everything in your army is T3 infantry. They make multiple damage weapons pointless for the most part and that's always nice.
People are killing knights every turn and they're doing it when the knights have 4+ invulns most of the time. Ignoring ap2 really isn't much different there.
well yeah but thats a problem with sister's that there's little true solution for. we don't have a metric ton of tank options. Mortificiars might be a good thing to toss into a list to soak up anti-tank firepower, they're reasonably hard hitting and cost just over 50 points a pop, wind a unit or two of these up at the start and expect to see your opponent divert some anti-tank into them
The biggest issue I see with exorcists vs. Rets is an exorcist is still an effective platform without strats. Rets must have the range extender, which is only useable on one unit a turn, to be effective. Otherwise they're just 24" range, which is usually not good enough.
This is why I plan to run 3 exos and 1 maxed melta ret squad. That way I get the effective power of rets without the massive drop off you get for your second unit.
tneva82 wrote: Well let's see. Current ever popular high ROF S5-6 -2 Dd3(let's say dam2 for ease of calculation). 0.2222 wounds per shot vs exorcist, 0.22222 for retributor(okay that's nice). More wounds for exorcist though and more shots.
okay, so under the ideal circumstances they break about even, while the rets come out way ahead against stuff like volcano cannons, castellions, ect. ect.
I'll take that
Gee. So you take the units which are not in meta now. Castellan's haven't been seen in long time in good lists. Volcano cannons even less.
I'm talking about the CURRENT META. You know the one that's being played right now. Not 1+ year old meta. That's old news. Sister codex did not even exists then. If you play against old meta you will lose as you will bring wrong tools.
You going to bring volcano cannons, lascannons etc when meta is bring 300 T3 TW1 6+ save models? Sounds like it.
the_scotsman wrote: So....two meltas vs 3d3 krak missiles? Seems like a not great comparison.
4-6 melta shots w/ two miracle dice and +1 damage on turn one vs 3d3 krak missiles
The important part is which can stay alive longer and keep grinding away at the opponent because thats how sisters win games.
Can stay alive better 1+ year old against meta
Oh and it's 1 MD. Unit cannot use more than 1 MD. And unless FAQ changes simulrcaneum indeed does not grant unit ability to use second MD same phase. Just ability to use ONE act even if you have already used. Much like orks showing off and kustom dakka cannot be used to shoot 3 time because ability gives ability to shoot second time. ONE is one. Not two.
I dunno, yes some meta lists are running lots of AP 2 but that's not all that's out there. What do you do when you encounter plasma, lascannons, Demolisher cannons, etc? They may not be "meta" entirely but they absolutely still exist, and many of the more common AT weapons that players own laugh at an exorcist.
Plassma: Retribution 0.69 kill per hit, exorcist 0.555 while having more wounds per point. Geeeeeeee! Wonderful. Oh and exorcist will be facing less plasma to begin with as you can be out of range. You know what plasma range tends to be? 24". What else is 24"? Multi-melta. What's exorcist? 48". Indeed that 24" will mean that unless you are running shroud order you aren't even quaranteed to shoot first turn except without 2CP stratagem for ONE unit. And if your ranged AT is all in one unit then you are in trouble.
And yes lascannons etc exists but in lesser numbers because most targets they face are stuff where lascannons suck. Invulnerable saves means high AP and low ROF just SUCKS. MD can be used nicely to block occasional one.
I'm glad for the mathhammer, that stuff is beyond me, but it's good to be a fly on the wall. I see people are posting lists for armies that may not exist... are you proxying lots of models? I cant imagine anyone has a dozen multimeltas standing around or a whole crop of Zephyrim so quickly.
I got started on my new box this week... I'm actually going to start with the Penitent just because it's an awesome model and I've never been able to field more than one, then convert three Seraphim into Zephyrim (to join my poor Geminae as a squad of 5), and then on to Repentia, which I've never owned at all. I guess my list building right now is more in the direction of what I can actually field now or very soon, vs. what's going to be most competitive in the long run.
MacPhail wrote: I see people are posting lists for armies that may not exist... are you proxying lots of models? I cant imagine anyone has a dozen multimeltas standing around or a whole crop of Zephyrim so quickly.
Those of use with existing metal armies probably do. I have like 8MM sisters and 2 more still in blisters. Zephyrim could be easily fielded using Seriphim Superior models (I have like 6) and moderat modding to normal Seriphim.
I guess according to you, "the meta" is that ork list running a zillion gretchen?or the typical guard infantry spam list? because that seems to be the only list that remotely resembles what you are talking about (also 6th place brought 6x thermal cannons, that "dont exist" in the current meta)
You should be clearer about what your idea of the CURRENT META looks like if you are going to cry about no one reading your mind.
Oh and it's 1 MD. Unit cannot use more than 1 MD. And unless FAQ changes simulrcaneum indeed does not grant unit ability to use second MD same phase. Just ability to use ONE act even if you have already used. Much like orks showing off and kustom dakka cannot be used to shoot 3 time because ability gives ability to shoot second time. ONE is one. Not two.
Inderdasting thoughts, how exactly would you be maximizing your points-to-melta shots on your alpha strike? by taking 4 meltas in one unit, or taking the minimum meltas in the maximimum number of units and stacking up extra shot cherubs? How does that math add up pro bro
MacPhail wrote: I see people are posting lists for armies that may not exist... are you proxying lots of models? I cant imagine anyone has a dozen multimeltas standing around or a whole crop of Zephyrim so quickly.
Those of use with existing metal armies probably do. I have like 8MM sisters and 2 more still in blisters. Zephyrim could be easily fielded using Seriphim Superior models (I have like 6) and moderat modding to normal Seriphim.
Yeah, I never did much with MM Rets... I guess I built that part of my army when HBs and HFs were more advantageous. I have about 3500 points of metal Sisters, but I think my only MM model got her gun taken away and became my Axe of Retribution Canoness back when that was a thing. When the Rets box drops I'll maybe build my way to a squad of 2 or 4 over time, but the 3x4 wall o' melta will probably take a back seat to building some solid melee options into my force.
MacPhail wrote: I see people are posting lists for armies that may not exist... are you proxying lots of models? I cant imagine anyone has a dozen multimeltas standing around or a whole crop of Zephyrim so quickly.
Those of use with existing metal armies probably do. I have like 8MM sisters and 2 more still in blisters. Zephyrim could be easily fielded using Seriphim Superior models (I have like 6) and moderat modding to normal Seriphim.
Yeah, I never did much with MM Rets... I guess I built that part of my army when HBs and HFs were more advantageous. I have about 3500 points of metal Sisters, but I think my only MM model got her gun taken away and became my Axe of Retribution Canoness back when that was a thing. When the Rets box drops I'll maybe build my way to a squad of 2 or 4 over time, but the 3x4 wall o' melta will probably take a back seat to building some solid melee options into my force.
I actually ran MM in my normal squads, I liked having the big gun with them. Have so many as I got a bunch on the cheap in an eBay lot back in early 5th ed.
MacPhail wrote: I'm glad for the mathhammer, that stuff is beyond me, but it's good to be a fly on the wall. I see people are posting lists for armies that may not exist... are you proxying lots of models? I cant imagine anyone has a dozen multimeltas standing around or a whole crop of Zephyrim so quickly.
Very few actually have the models to do this. They're mostly putting thoughts to paper.
Since the competitive meta is so heavily skewed towards lists building and their interaction with ITC secondaries, both things that happen before the game starts, it makes sense that list theory has become the basis for many a tactica thread. After all, with ITC being so prevalent, and the missions themselves being so simple with their nearly identical scenarios, those aspects are the only things that matter in a match. It helps that it means the largest issues with a list can be hammered out before buying a single model.
It unfortunately also means that most games are heavily dependent on what you decided before you even deployed your first unit. Makes the actual game part easy to forget, and I think some posters actually like the theory discussion more than the actual game itself. To each their own, and all that.
I should point out that one of the more competitive armies out there at the moment is Tau Triptide, which will fall on its face vs. Exorcists but will absolutely take Retributors' lunch money all day every day. And even if Rets are getting 2+ saves in cover and ignoring -2AP, good ROF weapons like Assault Cannons will still force them to take enough saves that they will start dying, while those weapons will not be terribly effective vs. Exorcists. So really, the right answer is play whichever one fits your list better. MM Rets will be better in some lists, but Exorcists will be better in others.
One thing I would do with Rets if I had any would be run them in a Repressor. Yes, I know, you can't scout them forward with Rets in them, but it still gives them some protection as well as mobility to help make their relatively short-ranged weapons a credible threat without the need to pay 2CP each time you fire them (and that only works on one unit).
ZergSmasher wrote: good ROF weapons like Assault Cannons will still force them to take enough saves that they will start dying, while those weapons will not be terribly effective vs. Exorcists.
It will take roughly 90 BS3, S6 shots to begin to chew into the multi meltas in a 10 man ret unit standing in cover, or around 25 to cause the first melta casualty in a 5 man unit. If you really want to maximize firepower and make unappealing targets, a 5 man unit with one multimelta and 2 ammo cherubs is 82 points and are returning fire with 3 shots on that first turn, which would take 60 assault cannon rounds to completely wipe out in order to reduce their shooitng at all..
how many assault cannons do you see across the table that it becomes a realistic threat.
So after a few practice games, I think we actually have one of our worst matchups against necrons. Which is weird.
They:
Tend to be toughness 5+ on most of their "competitive" units, which is an awkward toughness level to take out with our guns.
Have access to a lot of high rend, lowish strength shooting which is perfect for killing battle sisters(though Valorous still snubs them pretty good).
Doomsday Arks and their other anti-tank weapons don't care about the Exorcist's T8.
Reanimation protocols can be a bitch because we tend to have most of our damage on a handful of units and it's very easy to leave stuff alive by accident.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY: Quantum Shielding means our huge number of D6 damage weapons are difficult to land damage with already and completely neuters our ability to use MD on damage rolls.
I will say that if they try the flyer necron thing, either MM rets or Exorcists will boop them out of the sky instantly though.
MacPhail wrote: I'm glad for the mathhammer, that stuff is beyond me, but it's good to be a fly on the wall. I see people are posting lists for armies that may not exist... are you proxying lots of models? I cant imagine anyone has a dozen multimeltas standing around or a whole crop of Zephyrim so quickly.
Very few actually have the models to do this. They're mostly putting thoughts to paper.
Or we just proxy stuff. It's not that hard. The only thing you really can't proxy is the battle sanctum and that's only because the shape of a terrain piece is massively important to how it actually functions.
tneva82 wrote: Well let's see. Current ever popular high ROF S5-6 -2 Dd3(let's say dam2 for ease of calculation). 0.2222 wounds per shot vs exorcist, 0.22222 for retributor(okay that's nice). More wounds for exorcist though and more shots.
okay, so under the ideal circumstances they break about even, while the rets come out way ahead against stuff like volcano cannons, castellions, ect. ect.
I'll take that
Gee. So you take the units which are not in meta now. Castellan's haven't been seen in long time in good lists. Volcano cannons even less.
I'm talking about the CURRENT META. You know the one that's being played right now. Not 1+ year old meta. That's old news. Sister codex did not even exists then. If you play against old meta you will lose as you will bring wrong tools.
You going to bring volcano cannons, lascannons etc when meta is bring 300 T3 TW1 6+ save models? Sounds like it.
the_scotsman wrote: So....two meltas vs 3d3 krak missiles? Seems like a not great comparison.
4-6 melta shots w/ two miracle dice and +1 damage on turn one vs 3d3 krak missiles
The important part is which can stay alive longer and keep grinding away at the opponent because thats how sisters win games.
Can stay alive better 1+ year old against meta
Oh and it's 1 MD. Unit cannot use more than 1 MD. And unless FAQ changes simulrcaneum indeed does not grant unit ability to use second MD same phase. Just ability to use ONE act even if you have already used. Much like orks showing off and kustom dakka cannot be used to shoot 3 time because ability gives ability to shoot second time. ONE is one. Not two.
I dunno, yes some meta lists are running lots of AP 2 but that's not all that's out there. What do you do when you encounter plasma, lascannons, Demolisher cannons, etc? They may not be "meta" entirely but they absolutely still exist, and many of the more common AT weapons that players own laugh at an exorcist.
Plassma: Retribution 0.69 kill per hit, exorcist 0.555 while having more wounds per point. Geeeeeeee! Wonderful. Oh and exorcist will be facing less plasma to begin with as you can be out of range. You know what plasma range tends to be? 24". What else is 24"? Multi-melta. What's exorcist? 48". Indeed that 24" will mean that unless you are running shroud order you aren't even quaranteed to shoot first turn except without 2CP stratagem for ONE unit. And if your ranged AT is all in one unit then you are in trouble.
And yes lascannons etc exists but in lesser numbers because most targets they face are stuff where lascannons suck. Invulnerable saves means high AP and low ROF just SUCKS. MD can be used nicely to block occasional one.
The 1MD thing is not true. Don't care what anyone says the actual truth of the matter is that no one knows for sure until GW actually put out a FAQ. It could absolutely go either way. We might be able so substitute all of the dice of a roll. We might not.
The current meta is mostly IH and RG/IF armies (Leviathan/SkySpam vs Assault Centurion+TFireCannons) and weird skew lists that can beat them.
Exorcists are great against RG/IF armies because they tend to stick around AP-2 for most of their shooting so even the IF bonus to vehicles won't matter if you're Valorous Heart. You'll also be returning nasty volleys as you can wipe an entire AC squad off the board or a Tfire cannon pretty consistently.
Against IH VH Exorcists can kill everything but the Leviathan relatively easily, though they definitely do not do well against the return volley.
As for the skew lists, sisters do okay against hordes due to how cheap our infantry are and how many stormbolters are usually kicking around. Eldar flyer lists are a joke for VH. They can barely hurt exorcists and an exorcist will bop a -3 flyer 90% of the time.
Retributors cover you against other armies like Necrons, knights, Tau, ETC that can kill Exorcists relatively easily but can barely touch a 2+ save immune to -2 large infantry unit in cover. They also work better with OoML and Argent Shroud armies.
Both are fine. I take 2 exorcists and a 10 girl squad of MM rets in my VH brigades most of the time.
Exorcist I love because they're basically a guaranteed kill on anything they shoot at between their reroll shots strat and a good MD, Rets I like because they dig in like ticks and benefit a lot from infantry buffs such as inquisitors or hospitallers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lash92 wrote: I have to agree with you on many points Rhynner.
Finally had some games too. Played VH brigade with an BR vanguard.
BR Canonesse:
She is absolutely hilarious for her 45 points.
Celestine:
You really don't take her for her dmg. The 4++ to our jump pack girls is huge the right match up.
Also she is a single model on a small 32mm base. So you can use here to fly forward 18" with a MD and charge 2d6 (possible high number again with MD) to tie something up.
Also our two other main HQs namely Missionary and Canonesse have diminishing returns so another option is nice.
Exorcist vs MM rets:
Few pages I made a similar observation. Exorcist just die in the current meta not just to marines but also Eldar for example. Rets in cover with VH and an imagifier are pretty tanky, especially considering ablative wounds. What I don't like is the cost of them... A fully kitted out squad is 200+ pts. I might just run 2 or 3 MM. Also what's your guys opinion on the banner? I feel like it is a nobrainer for 5 pts, especially when having multiple melta squads like retributors and seraphim.
Another downside is they can get pretty cp expensive with Storm of Retribution
Other observations I made during my games:
We are much more CP starved than MD. I definitely was too conservative with the latter.
Our army likes to be close together, so avoid splitting up as far as the mission and your opponent allows.
Disagree with the bolded part. Eldar lists, at least currently, suck at dealing with T8 because they went from being geared toward knights to being geared towards marines. CHE, Hemlockes, etc have seriously trouble dealing with Exorcists faster than the exorcist deals with them. Even if they do get a good volley off, they have relatively few anti-tank shots so it's not out of the question to just MD yourself to safety.
Dark Eldar are a different story, but CWE hate seeing exorcists in most lists now,
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lash92 wrote: It´s not like we dont have high strength high AP shots in the meta atm:
- Ironhand character dread + chaplain dreads with twin las.
- Eldar Flyer
- Tau Fusion
- Other Sisters player with exorcists
It would be funny to run them against tripple riptide tau though.
Also two big point in favor of rets:
- They ignore moving penalty
- They do not degrade!
Sorry for so many posts in a row but I'm catching up.
Retributors do degrade. The first 4 wounds cost bolter shots, the fifth costs +1 leadership, the sixth costs their extra AoF, 7-9 reduce melta shots by one.
ERJAK wrote: So after a few practice games, I think we actually have one of our worst matchups against necrons. Which is weird.
They:
Tend to be toughness 5+ on most of their "competitive" units, which is an awkward toughness level to take out with our guns.
Have access to a lot of high rend, lowish strength shooting which is perfect for killing battle sisters(though Valorous still snubs them pretty good).
Doomsday Arks and their other anti-tank weapons don't care about the Exorcist's T8.
Reanimation protocols can be a bitch because we tend to have most of our damage on a handful of units and it's very easy to leave stuff alive by accident.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY: Quantum Shielding means our huge number of D6 damage weapons are difficult to land damage with already and completely neuters our ability to use MD on damage rolls.
I will say that if they try the flyer necron thing, either MM rets or Exorcists will boop them out of the sky instantly though.
I think mortifies or repentia are our answer to necron vehicles and other units in part. high volume of shots from double HB tear into their troops and buzzblades or flails will tear through QS and even repentia will be doing wounds on 4+ because necron vehicles are T6. set damage of 2 means QS only works 16% of the time and with just high volume of attacks it won't be enough. plus it does the biggest thing, ties them up in combat forcing DDark to fallback cripples its damage and range output by low power mode and accuracy because its heavy.
with the point changes to necrons i see H. destroyer list poping up more in the future
Not sure what direction to go with sisters, I've been playing marines alot recently and my tactic is usually to sit back a bit and let the enemy have it with massive firepower before walking up the board and claiming objectives.
However I lost 2 games at a tournament yesterday on objectives despite tabling both of them. Because of that I'm thinking of a more mobile force for the sisters which can run up into objectives and hold them effectively. VH and AS are the obvious choices so far for me.
Pretty sure I'll be going with 3 X excorcists with a cannonness as the base of the list. I want a unit of Mortifiers as well to draw fire from the tanks, and if not dealt with mortifiers are pretty devastating in combat! Not sold on Zepharim and Seraphim tbh but Zeph seem more useful for my money.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY: Quantum Shielding means our huge number of D6 damage weapons are difficult to land damage with already and completely neuters our ability to use MD on damage rolls.
.
On flip side sister melta negates QS partially which is good.
Also two big point in favor of rets:
- They ignore moving penalty
- They do not degrade!
Ignore moving penalty is nice though less needed with exorcists who have long range so they don't need to move to range they can be killed to hit something.
As for degrade...Ummmm care to show rule where retributors can keep all the models until last one dies? So regardless of is your 10 strong retribution taken 0 casualties or 9 they have all the models on board shooting etc? Because at least with my orks and necrons if I take casualties I need to remove models and this has habit of reducing my firepower. So unless sisters have some special rule they will lose first bolters, then leadership and eventually lose out on multi-meltas. So unless they have special rule they actually degrrade for every wound unlike exorcist that degrades in brackets.
Pretty sure haven't seen any special rule but I'm sure you are able to show exact quote or even better print screen.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY: Quantum Shielding means our huge number of D6 damage weapons are difficult to land damage with already and completely neuters our ability to use MD on damage rolls.
.
On flip side sister melta negates QS partially which is good.
- Argent Shroud are still pretty good. I want to try Bloody Rose as well but my plastic Sisters aren't up to the task of existing yet.
- Retributors are awesome. 2x MM and 1x HF rets do loads of damage to all sorts of targets.
- We have lots of gun. LOTS of gun, at least in a foot horde.
I played a narrative game (well, matched play with some houserules) against some Nurgle daemons - Death Guard and Daemons. One Slaanesh lady was in the Daemons detachment (which broke loci but whatever). It was essentially matched play: rule of 3, one stratagem of any one kind per phase, etc. Only allowed thing was repeated daemon summoning.
I killed a summoned Keeper, 30 summoned Daemonettes, and a summoned Daemon Prince. While I did this, I also killed:
1) The actual warlord daemon prince
2) the enemy Malignant Plaguecaster
3) A squad of Plague Marines.
My opponent was astonished at the level of firepower the list could spew under 12". He gave up Turn 3 after most of his characters were dead and there was a 10-1 advantage in victory points (we were playing maelstrom, which Argent Shroud are fantastic in, especially against slow nurgle).
What are people using their middling MD on? Like 3-4s? I feel like I should be using them for whatever like exorcist wound rolls but then my brain is like "then you're only rolling 3 dice for wounds and you'll get less wounds" cause my brain is an irrational donkey-cave.
Sim-Life wrote: What are people using their middling MD on? Like 3-4s? I feel like I should be using them for whatever like exorcist wound rolls but then my brain is like "then you're only rolling 3 dice for wounds and you'll get less wounds" cause my brain is an irrational donkey-cave.
I've used mine for forcing needed armor saves and wound rolls for like point blank meltas. I try to use them in phases where I don't think I will need the big damage hits or I have a simulacrum to not worry about stepping on the act of faith. Also, guaranteeing the destruction of things lurking with 3-4 wounds.
I just received a Celestine model and I've been looking at the geminae with my Ebon Chalice detachment. Getting to ignore the MWs on a 5+ would seem to help run those models or even just use a MD if it means keeping it alive for another unit to shoot her. But then again the use of a 5 on surviving vs say damage or a invuln save still makes it seem meh. I think I'll try it out and see how much fire it soaks vs my meta of loyal marines and BLCSM.
mrwhoop wrote: I just received a Celestine model and I've been looking at the geminae with my Ebon Chalice detachment. Getting to ignore the MWs on a 5+ would seem to help run those models or even just use a MD if it means keeping it alive for another unit to shoot her. But then again the use of a 5 on surviving vs say damage or a invuln save still makes it seem meh. I think I'll try it out and see how much fire it soaks vs my meta of loyal marines and BLCSM.
How you gonna do that when they don't get <ORDER> and can't benefit from convictions? Also, can't use MD on FNPs because they're not techinically saves.
The geminae are gak, unforunately. I wouldn't even assemble them.
At 20 points, a single Geminae seems useful for filling an Elite spot in a brigade on the ultra cheap. You can't keep Celestine in the same detachment, but in a brigade + battalion set up, you could toss Celestine in the battalion and a geminae in the brigade if you still wanted Celestine.
Anyone else think it's kinda weird that the unit Triumph has the most synergy with is the Mortifiers? In that regard, here's my gimmick Morty List.
Canoness [3 PL, 54pts] Selections: Boltgun, Power sword, Rod of Office
Celestine [8 PL, 160pts] Selections: Warlord, Warlord Trait: 4. Beacon of Faith
Triumph of Saint Katherine [9 PL, 185pts]
Troops
Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 93pts]
Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum Selections: Simulacrum Imperialis
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon Selections: Meltagun
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon Selections: Meltagun
Sister Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-melta
Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 93pts]
Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum Selections: Simulacrum Imperialis
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon Selections: Meltagun
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon Selections: Meltagun
Sister Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-melta
Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 93pts]
Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Simulacrum
Selections: Simulacrum Imperialis
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon Selections: Meltagun
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon Selections: Meltagun
Sister Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-melta
Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 49pts]
2x Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Sister Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Chainsword
Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 49pts]
2x Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Sister Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Chainsword
Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 49pts]
2x Battle Sister
Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Sister Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Chainsword
Elites
Dialogus [2 PL, 35pts]
Hospitaller [2 PL, 35pts]
Imagifier [2 PL, 45pts] Selections: Tale of the Stoic
Zephyrim Squad [5 PL, 85pts]
4x Zephyrim Selections: 4x Power sword
Zephyrim Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Power sword
Fast Attack
Dominion Squad [5 PL, 58pts]
Dominion Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Chainsword
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion Squad [5 PL, 58pts]
Dominion Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Chainsword
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion Squad [5 PL, 58pts]
Dominion Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Boltgun, Chainsword
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Dominion w/ Special Weapon Selections: Storm bolter
Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 83pts]
2x Seraphim
Seraphim Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol
Seraphim w/ Special Weapons Selections: 2x Inferno Pistols
Seraphim w/ Special Weapons Selections: 2x Inferno Pistols
Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 83pts]
2x Seraphim
Seraphim Superior Selections: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol
Seraphim w/ Special Weapons Selections: 2x Inferno Pistols
Seraphim w/ Special Weapons Selections: 2x Inferno Pistols
Heavy Support
Mortifiers [9 PL, 174pts]
Anchorite Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Blades
Mortifiers Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Flails
Mortifiers Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Flails
Mortifiers [12 PL, 230pts]
Anchorite Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Blades
Mortifiers Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Flails
Mortifiers Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Flails
Mortifiers Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Flails
Mortifiers [12 PL, 230pts]
Anchorite Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Flails
Mortifiers Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Blades
Mortifiers Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Blades
Mortifiers Selections: 2x Heavy bolter, 2x Penitent Blades
Argent Shroud on the support units to keep the pressure on, Minimum Zephyrim Squad for the reroll 1s to wound strat, brigade for all the oodles of CP you'll need, Celestine to give the Morties an invul. Don't worry too much about relics. The only big what ifs are whether you should bring litanies or a defensive relic and if the points you spend on the third anchorite might be more useful spent on the zephyrim banner.
Should end up with the mortifiers hitting on 2s wounding on 3s rerolling ones against ideal targets.
I don't think Celestine gives Mortifiers an invul because they are Vehicles (I had the same mistaken impression early on as I thought she could buff Exorcists).
On the subject of Mortys, are they strictly better than Penitent Engines? Everyone I see has been trying out Mortifiers in their lists, but I hear very little mention of the Penitent Engines. The way I see it, Penitents are slower but tougher (better FnP), but Mortys are fast and can actually take Heavy Bolters. I think their respective CC stats are probably a wash (WS 3+ vs. 4+ rerollable) since they have the same weapon options and the same statline basically.
ZergSmasher wrote: I don't think Celestine gives Mortifiers an invul because they are Vehicles (I had the same mistaken impression early on as I thought she could buff Exorcists).
On the subject of Mortys, are they strictly better than Penitent Engines? Everyone I see has been trying out Mortifiers in their lists, but I hear very little mention of the Penitent Engines. The way I see it, Penitents are slower but tougher (better FnP), but Mortys are fast and can actually take Heavy Bolters. I think their respective CC stats are probably a wash (WS 3+ vs. 4+ rerollable) since they have the same weapon options and the same statline basically.
Celestine's +1 to SoF aura is infantry only but I'm fairly sure(codex isn't in front of me but pretty sure) that her 'give an invul to Ministorum/Militarum units' aura works on everything.
Mortys are in general better for one very specific reason: They have the Adepta Sororitas Keyword. Being faster and having heavy bolters is extremely helpful to be sure, but that keyword is a HUGE boon for them.
ZergSmasher wrote: I don't think Celestine gives Mortifiers an invul because they are Vehicles (I had the same mistaken impression early on as I thought she could buff Exorcists).
On the subject of Mortys, are they strictly better than Penitent Engines? Everyone I see has been trying out Mortifiers in their lists, but I hear very little mention of the Penitent Engines. The way I see it, Penitents are slower but tougher (better FnP), but Mortys are fast and can actually take Heavy Bolters. I think their respective CC stats are probably a wash (WS 3+ vs. 4+ rerollable) since they have the same weapon options and the same statline basically.
Their slightly better durability doesn't amount to much and the Adepta Sororitas keyword and improved speed make Mortifiersa more popular choice at the moment. (And shooting heavy flamers in melee)
ZergSmasher wrote: I don't think Celestine gives Mortifiers an invul because they are Vehicles (I had the same mistaken impression early on as I thought she could buff Exorcists).
On the subject of Mortys, are they strictly better than Penitent Engines? Everyone I see has been trying out Mortifiers in their lists, but I hear very little mention of the Penitent Engines. The way I see it, Penitents are slower but tougher (better FnP), but Mortys are fast and can actually take Heavy Bolters. I think their respective CC stats are probably a wash (WS 3+ vs. 4+ rerollable) since they have the same weapon options and the same statline basically.
P engines being the same cost as HB morts kinda hurts because like you said morts are faster by 2+d6 since they can advance and shoot meaning they are attacking something turn 1 and even if they go into something melee wise that will wipe the floor with them they each have a 50% chance for d3 mortal wounds to each unit near them. P. engines are slightly tougher but i think the anchorite giving them a 3+ is better than a 5+ FNP on AP -2 or -1
its more killy vs more survival and currently the game favors more killy.
Argent Shroud Dominions are kinda' neat. They don't REQUIRE the Rhino, yet they get the job done because of Vanguard Advance and then 1st turn Advance. They can get into juice range pretty consistently with Meltas, and ASSUREDLY can do it for the Storm Bolter shenanigans.
Someone said DoomsDay arks are a hard counter for us BUT it turns out the StormBolter Dominion are a pretty good option against that PARTICULAR threat. Another fun observation.
The list I'm contemplating will use Argent Shroud for both Multimelta Retributors and the Dominion, while the Valorous Heart will form the core of the army.
I'm noodling at this stage, but it seems like it could be quite hard hitting, quite early, and then quite hearty afterwards. The target priority confusion it can bring seems really great.
I'd love to squeeze more command points in, and might be able to get ti to 14 and still do what I want. I lose four bolter sisters by doing it. Maybe worth it, maybe not. This army relies on resource management more than any army I can think of right now, so it's hard to say how much that added point will matter, but it could.
And it blows my mind but I actually took 5 Celestians. The characters are too important to give up early to eliminator type units. There are a fair amount of those running around now, even if they aren't absolutely setting the meta on their own. They are easy to squeeze into most lists even if only three, so I am weary enough of them to take just a few. Testing is required of course.
2 dda will not average exorcist/immolator causing 5.14 per dda in average to russ chaspis. Which don'' have inv save.
Celestians are pretty sweet imo. Only issue is elite as you are dlready commiting for 6 bss squads but for point attack, ws, bodyguard and full to hit rerolls new style.
ryzouken wrote: At 20 points, a single Geminae seems useful for filling an Elite spot in a brigade on the ultra cheap. You can't keep Celestine in the same detachment, but in a brigade + battalion set up, you could toss Celestine in the battalion and a geminae in the brigade if you still wanted Celestine.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the (worthless) Geminae didn't take up a slot.
ryzouken wrote: At 20 points, a single Geminae seems useful for filling an Elite spot in a brigade on the ultra cheap. You can't keep Celestine in the same detachment, but in a brigade + battalion set up, you could toss Celestine in the battalion and a geminae in the brigade if you still wanted Celestine.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the (worthless) Geminae didn't take up a slot.
Only if st cel is in their detachment.
But, is it really worth it if for like 25 points more you can have a freakin' imagifier?
tneva82 wrote: mortis tkreat range is 9+3d6. Average less than 20. If opponent isn't deploying as far as possbible looking at triple 6 roll. T1 charge is not likely.
For cc zealot is nice. 75% vs 66%
Plus chearer than mortis.
I see pekitent engines more like counter charge unit waiting for enemy to engage you in cc. Mortis is better for charging forward
ryzouken wrote: At 20 points, a single Geminae seems useful for filling an Elite spot in a brigade on the ultra cheap. You can't keep Celestine in the same detachment, but in a brigade + battalion set up, you could toss Celestine in the battalion and a geminae in the brigade if you still wanted Celestine.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the (worthless) Geminae didn't take up a slot.
Only if st cel is in their detachment.
But, is it really worth it if for like 25 points more you can have a freakin' imagifier?
Even an extra 15 for a dialogus or Hospitaller seems massively more useful.
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tneva82 wrote: 2 dda will not average exorcist/immolator causing 5.14 per dda in average to russ chaspis. Which don'' have inv save.
Celestians are pretty sweet imo. Only issue is elite as you are dlready commiting for 6 bss squads but for point attack, ws, bodyguard and full to hit rerolls new style.
The problem with this is that they'll probably never do 'average' damage to an exorcist. Your opponent is definitely going to be using their buffs and CP to take out your exorcists.
As great as quantum shielding is, leaving an exorcist alive is still incredibly risky due to the potential of just eating 9 S8 AP-3 shots to the face. They'll want to kill it quickly.
mrwhoop wrote: I just received a Celestine model and I've been looking at the geminae with my Ebon Chalice detachment. Getting to ignore the MWs on a 5+ would seem to help run those models or even just use a MD if it means keeping it alive for another unit to shoot her. But then again the use of a 5 on surviving vs say damage or a invuln save still makes it seem meh. I think I'll try it out and see how much fire it soaks vs my meta of loyal marines and BLCSM.
How you gonna do that when they don't get <ORDER> and can't benefit from convictions? Also, can't use MD on FNPs because they're not techinically saves.
The geminae are gak, unforunately. I wouldn't even assemble them.
Ah, so it would seem. Oh well I suppose I can just make them superiors for some zeraphim.
ryzouken wrote: At 20 points, a single Geminae seems useful for filling an Elite spot in a brigade on the ultra cheap. You can't keep Celestine in the same detachment, but in a brigade + battalion set up, you could toss Celestine in the battalion and a geminae in the brigade if you still wanted Celestine.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the (worthless) Geminae didn't take up a slot.
Im really confused. Why are the Geminae really bad? They are characters right? can't they do the thing they used to do? Plus they are semi immortal.
ryzouken wrote: At 20 points, a single Geminae seems useful for filling an Elite spot in a brigade on the ultra cheap. You can't keep Celestine in the same detachment, but in a brigade + battalion set up, you could toss Celestine in the battalion and a geminae in the brigade if you still wanted Celestine.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the (worthless) Geminae didn't take up a slot.
Im really confused. Why are the Geminae really bad? They are characters right? can't they do the thing they used to do? Plus they are semi immortal.
I'm not quite sure why people have been claiming them to be the worst unit in the game (stiff competition etc etc) - but they don't synergise with an army that is all about synergy.
But arguably yes, they are cheap slot fillers but then sisters have some great elite choices.
Cynically they should have got blessed blades so they could be cheap combat missiles capable of menacing characters etc.
ryzouken wrote: At 20 points, a single Geminae seems useful for filling an Elite spot in a brigade on the ultra cheap. You can't keep Celestine in the same detachment, but in a brigade + battalion set up, you could toss Celestine in the battalion and a geminae in the brigade if you still wanted Celestine.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the (worthless) Geminae didn't take up a slot.
Im really confused. Why are the Geminae really bad? They are characters right? can't they do the thing they used to do? Plus they are semi immortal.
They weren't ever any good. What was 'good' was how they interacted as part of Celestine's unit. Since they lost that in the Beta Codex and Celestine became overpriced rubbish, that haven't had a place.
Geminae look like they should be "Super Zephyrim" with either similar rules buff (eg. wounding buff), and / or a stats buff to emphasize their character status (eg 3-4W per model).
They "should" be a Zephyrim/Seraphim force multiplier, with auras buffing their other jump pack sisters.
generalchaos34 wrote: Im really confused. Why are the Geminae really bad? They are characters right? can't they do the thing they used to do? Plus they are semi immortal.
Because the "thing they used to do" was take guaranteed wounds instead of Celestine and revive at the start of each turn. Both aspects have been heavily nerfed:
- They only intercept attacks on a 2+ and are harder to keep with Celestine since they have to make charge rolls independently.
- They went from a 2+ to a 3+ save. Not the end of the world, but it is a liability on T3 units that can be spammed to death with low STR shots.
- Healing Tears only works if they've taken a wound or casualty but not been destroyed. If your opponent manages to pick them both off they're gone for good, and picking of T3, W2, 3+/4++ troops isn't all that hard unless you can hide behind the Character rule.
So they're a shadow of their former selves and tough to justify unless you are desperate to protect Celestine from character snipers.
Pauly wrote: What are people opinions on Thaddeus the purifier? Is he worth the extra 12 points over the misssionary?
Compared to the Missionary, he gains a power maul instead of a chainsword and has the servo stubber instead of an autogun (so small increase in combat power). He loses the ability that prevents models from fleeing. So no, he's definitely not worth it for 50 points.
On a related note, it might be entertaining to bring Pious Vorne instead. She's a character with a heavy flamer and a decent melee weapon, plus the Zealot rule. 3 wounds makes her squishy even with her 5+ FnP, but for 25 points could be worth it as a brigade filler or something.
Pauly wrote: What are people opinions on Thaddeus the purifier? Is he worth the extra 12 points over the misssionary?
Compared to the Missionary, he gains a power maul instead of a chainsword and has the servo stubber instead of an autogun (so small increase in combat power). He loses the ability that prevents models from fleeing. So no, he's definitely not worth it for 50 points.
On a related note, it might be entertaining to bring Pious Vorne instead. She's a character with a heavy flamer and a decent melee weapon, plus the Zealot rule. 3 wounds makes her squishy even with her 5+ FnP, but for 25 points could be worth it as a brigade filler or something.
Spoletta wrote: I'm assembling my sisters, and i'm not fond of the repentia heads.
I would like something less grim, possibily with really long hairs like banshees and wytches, but i cannot find suitable bits, even in 3rd party.
Someone has any good idea for a repentia head swap?
Long hair is always tough because you often have to model it around the model, so basically the hair has to go up. Daughters of khaine are good, but I think you'd need to do something with the crowns to make them repentia-y. Maybe paint them a dull, rusty iron with a little bit of blood dripping down the brows and onto the faces, implying that they're some kind of penitent torture device?
lash92 wrote: So for all you guys running Valerous Heart Brigades: How do you run your BSS? Just 6x5 girls barebones?
I´m pretty tempted to rock 2 SBs each tbh to have them actually do something when shooting.
2 SB is really cheap (just 24 points for 6 squads to have them), so that's probably worth doing. I did that in my one test game with the new 'dex, and it worked okay.
Pauly wrote: What are people opinions on Thaddeus the purifier? Is he worth the extra 12 points over the misssionary?
Compared to the Missionary, he gains a power maul instead of a chainsword and has the servo stubber instead of an autogun (so small increase in combat power). He loses the ability that prevents models from fleeing. So no, he's definitely not worth it for 50 points.
On a related note, it might be entertaining to bring Pious Vorne instead. She's a character with a heavy flamer and a decent melee weapon, plus the Zealot rule. 3 wounds makes her squishy even with her 5+ FnP, but for 25 points could be worth it as a brigade filler or something.
She breakes Order trait bonus.
Ahh, good catch. I thought MINISTORUM units did not break it, but it turns out it's only if it's one of the units from a list.
lash92 wrote: So for all you guys running Valerous Heart Brigades:
How do you run your BSS? Just 6x5 girls barebones?
I´m pretty tempted to rock 2 SBs each tbh to have them actually do something when shooting.
Never run barebones squads. The 4pts per unit for stormbolters gets more valuable for that incredibly small investment than just about anything else you could spend 4 points on.
lash92 wrote: So for all you guys running Valerous Heart Brigades:
How do you run your BSS? Just 6x5 girls barebones?
I´m pretty tempted to rock 2 SBs each tbh to have them actually do something when shooting.
2 SB is really cheap (just 24 points for 6 squads to have them), so that's probably worth doing. I did that in my one test game with the new 'dex, and it worked okay.
Pauly wrote: What are people opinions on Thaddeus the purifier? Is he worth the extra 12 points over the misssionary?
Compared to the Missionary, he gains a power maul instead of a chainsword and has the servo stubber instead of an autogun (so small increase in combat power). He loses the ability that prevents models from fleeing. So no, he's definitely not worth it for 50 points.
On a related note, it might be entertaining to bring Pious Vorne instead. She's a character with a heavy flamer and a decent melee weapon, plus the Zealot rule. 3 wounds makes her squishy even with her 5+ FnP, but for 25 points could be worth it as a brigade filler or something.
She breakes Order trait bonus.
Ahh, good catch. I thought MINISTORUM units did not break it, but it turns out it's only if it's one of the units from a list.
I just picked up BSF for $50, so I'm probably going to use 'ol Thad as my missionary, since Beefy Jacobus has been retired.
lash92 wrote: So for all you guys running Valerous Heart Brigades:
How do you run your BSS? Just 6x5 girls barebones?
I´m pretty tempted to rock 2 SBs each tbh to have them actually do something when shooting.
Always atleast two SBs.
Me, despite my thoughts earlier in the thread im considering slapping combi plas on the superior. I've got a brigade to 1900 points, but I'm having a hard time finding a better way, with my current lineup, of spending 66.
Its basicly that and some other filling options or two mortified, but I hate that they dont get order bonuses.
I will have to try the Geminae at a certain point. They may suck stat wise, but there is merit in a fast character that costs 20 points, just to be a road bump which awards a miracle dice.
Spoletta wrote: I'm assembling my sisters, and i'm not fond of the repentia heads.
I would like something less grim, possibily with really long hairs like banshees and wytches, but i cannot find suitable bits, even in 3rd party.
Someone has any good idea for a repentia head swap?
Long hair is always tough because you often have to model it around the model, so basically the hair has to go up. Daughters of khaine are good, but I think you'd need to do something with the crowns to make them repentia-y. Maybe paint them a dull, rusty iron with a little bit of blood dripping down the brows and onto the faces, implying that they're some kind of penitent torture device?
The problem with that is that i'm not using repentia heads specifically because i don't like the penitent look that much. A bit is fine, but the heads really go overboard for me, i was looking at a more berserk look for the heads. If as you correctly highlight, doing it with long hard may be quite difficult, i can do it with mid/short haired heads. Problem is that GW model range is quite scarce on female heads, so i was looking at 3rd party bits, but even there i can't find much.
Spoletta wrote: I will have to try the Geminae at a certain point. They may suck stat wise, but there is merit in a fast character that costs 20 points, just to be a road bump which awards a miracle dice.
Spoletta wrote: I'm assembling my sisters, and i'm not fond of the repentia heads.
I would like something less grim, possibily with really long hairs like banshees and wytches, but i cannot find suitable bits, even in 3rd party.
Someone has any good idea for a repentia head swap?
Long hair is always tough because you often have to model it around the model, so basically the hair has to go up. Daughters of khaine are good, but I think you'd need to do something with the crowns to make them repentia-y. Maybe paint them a dull, rusty iron with a little bit of blood dripping down the brows and onto the faces, implying that they're some kind of penitent torture device?
The Raging Heroes brand has produced mock Sisters of Battle a year or two ago. They have their own mock Repentia, maybe you can check their heads see if it's something you would be interested in.
The problem with that is that i'm not using repentia heads specifically because i don't like the penitent look that much. A bit is fine, but the heads really go overboard for me, i was looking at a more berserk look for the heads. If as you correctly highlight, doing it with long hard may be quite difficult, i can do it with mid/short haired heads. Problem is that GW model range is quite scarce on female heads, so i was looking at 3rd party bits, but even there i can't find much.
Spoletta wrote: I will have to try the Geminae at a certain point. They may suck stat wise, but there is merit in a fast character that costs 20 points, just to be a road bump which awards a miracle dice.
Spoletta wrote: I'm assembling my sisters, and i'm not fond of the repentia heads.
I would like something less grim, possibily with really long hairs like banshees and wytches, but i cannot find suitable bits, even in 3rd party.
Someone has any good idea for a repentia head swap?
Long hair is always tough because you often have to model it around the model, so basically the hair has to go up. Daughters of khaine are good, but I think you'd need to do something with the crowns to make them repentia-y. Maybe paint them a dull, rusty iron with a little bit of blood dripping down the brows and onto the faces, implying that they're some kind of penitent torture device?
The problem with that is that i'm not using repentia heads specifically because i don't like the penitent look that much. A bit is fine, but the heads really go overboard for me, i was looking at a more berserk look for the heads. If as you correctly highlight, doing it with long hard may be quite difficult, i can do it with mid/short haired heads. Problem is that GW model range is quite scarce on female heads, so i was looking at 3rd party bits, but even there i can't find much.
Statuesque is definitely the best 3rd party female head source I've used.
Spoletta wrote: I will have to try the Geminae at a certain point. They may suck stat wise, but there is merit in a fast character that costs 20 points, just to be a road bump which awards a miracle dice.
Spoletta wrote: I'm assembling my sisters, and i'm not fond of the repentia heads.
I would like something less grim, possibily with really long hairs like banshees and wytches, but i cannot find suitable bits, even in 3rd party.
Someone has any good idea for a repentia head swap?
Long hair is always tough because you often have to model it around the model, so basically the hair has to go up. Daughters of khaine are good, but I think you'd need to do something with the crowns to make them repentia-y. Maybe paint them a dull, rusty iron with a little bit of blood dripping down the brows and onto the faces, implying that they're some kind of penitent torture device?
The problem with that is that i'm not using repentia heads specifically because i don't like the penitent look that much. A bit is fine, but the heads really go overboard for me, i was looking at a more berserk look for the heads. If as you correctly highlight, doing it with long hard may be quite difficult, i can do it with mid/short haired heads. Problem is that GW model range is quite scarce on female heads, so i was looking at 3rd party bits, but even there i can't find much.
Have you looked at Victoria miniatures? I know they do whole squares of women, but don’t know if they do the heads separately.
Spoletta wrote: I will have to try the Geminae at a certain point. They may suck stat wise, but there is merit in a fast character that costs 20 points, just to be a road bump which awards a miracle dice.
Spoletta wrote: I'm assembling my sisters, and i'm not fond of the repentia heads.
I would like something less grim, possibily with really long hairs like banshees and wytches, but i cannot find suitable bits, even in 3rd party.
Someone has any good idea for a repentia head swap?
Long hair is always tough because you often have to model it around the model, so basically the hair has to go up. Daughters of khaine are good, but I think you'd need to do something with the crowns to make them repentia-y. Maybe paint them a dull, rusty iron with a little bit of blood dripping down the brows and onto the faces, implying that they're some kind of penitent torture device?
The problem with that is that i'm not using repentia heads specifically because i don't like the penitent look that much. A bit is fine, but the heads really go overboard for me, i was looking at a more berserk look for the heads. If as you correctly highlight, doing it with long hard may be quite difficult, i can do it with mid/short haired heads. Problem is that GW model range is quite scarce on female heads, so i was looking at 3rd party bits, but even there i can't find much.
Have you looked at Victoria miniatures? I know they do whole squares of women, but don’t know if they do the heads separately.
They do, You can buy them as legs, arms, torsos, heads, as well as full sets. I have been building a Preatorian Army using them.
Also other than maybe 1-2 things nothing really needs to be FAQ'd/clarified. If your hoping for buffs or war gear changes I doubt it's happening in the FAQ.
Legends saw most of what we hoped was typos turn out to be true.
However I think Sisters are in PA5 which is hopefully soon!
I wouldn't expect it till after the general release in January honestly. GW seem to have just shoved this box out to stick to their "Sisters in 2019" promise and have now forgotten about it.
Also other than maybe 1-2 things nothing really needs to be FAQ'd/clarified. If your hoping for buffs or war gear changes I doubt it's happening in the FAQ.
Legends saw most of what we hoped was typos turn out to be true.
However I think Sisters are in PA5 which is hopefully soon!
A lot of stuff needs to FAQ'd(some of it because of GW's horrendous history with RAI):
Mortifiers: Are they intended to be allowed to advance and shoot? Because they can't.(guns can't be made assault after advancing because they can't be selected to shoot in the shooting phase.) If they weren't then why change them to assault instead of just allowing you to shoot without the minus one?
How does the AoF system actually work? (And don't give me that BUt mAh AttAcK seQuEncE! Crap. GW doesn't know the attack sequence well enough to do something like that on purpose, especially considering they copy-pasted the rule from Sigmar. It ALSO doesn't answer the question of fast dice)
Boxset canoness has an illegal loadout.
Why TF don't dominions get to scout in vehicles any more? It can't be to keep then from being 'op'.
Simulacrums: If you AoF the unit with Simulacrum first, can you AoF then again? It specifically says 'elsewhere'. If you AoF them first, can you count that as the Simulcrum AoF rather than your once per phase AoF? If not, why not? (Design wise, I understand the wording).
There are more but those are even more RAI questions.
Also other than maybe 1-2 things nothing really needs to be FAQ'd/clarified. If your hoping for buffs or war gear changes I doubt it's happening in the FAQ.
Legends saw most of what we hoped was typos turn out to be true.
However I think Sisters are in PA5 which is hopefully soon!
A lot of stuff needs to FAQ'd(some of it because of GW's horrendous history with RAI):
Mortifiers: Are they intended to be allowed to advance and shoot? Because they can't.(guns can't be made assault after advancing because they can't be selected to shoot in the shooting phase.) If they weren't then why change them to assault instead of just allowing you to shoot without the minus one?
How does the AoF system actually work? (And don't give me that BUt mAh AttAcK seQuEncE! Crap. GW doesn't know the attack sequence well enough to do something like that on purpose, especially considering they copy-pasted the rule from Sigmar. It ALSO doesn't answer the question of fast dice)
Boxset canoness has an illegal loadout.
Why TF don't dominions get to scout in vehicles any more? It can't be to keep then from being 'op'.
Simulacrums: If you AoF the unit with Simulacrum first, can you AoF then again? It specifically says 'elsewhere'. If you AoF them first, can you count that as the Simulcrum AoF rather than your once per phase AoF? If not, why not? (Design wise, I understand the wording).
There are more but those are even more RAI questions.
Theres a video that shows our symbol. The new art work shows us fighting tau. Tau is book 5 I think. All the signs point to yes on us being in the book with Tau, which looks to be book 5.
The Box Canonesses, Act's of Faith, and Miracle dicing a d3 a big ones to me. The rest of it feels nit picky and rules lawrey.
Rynner wrote: Theres a video that shows our symbol. The new art work shows us fighting tau. Tau is book 5 I think. All the signs point to yes on us being in the book with Tau, which looks to be book 5.
The Box Canonesses, Act's of Faith, and Miracle dicing a d3 a big ones to me. The rest of it feels nit picky and rules lawrey.
100% rules lawyer BS. But, people gotta have their arguments at the table somehow.
I’m converting my illegal plasma gun, will add a BP after the PP is taken off. I will take that damn stupid collar off too.
I may see if I can get a couple of the new mistress of repentia, 1 to replace the old metal one & 1 to convert into a canoness.
Will get a couple of the new canoness’s in January.
Spoletta wrote: I will have to try the Geminae at a certain point. They may suck stat wise, but there is merit in a fast character that costs 20 points, just to be a road bump which awards a miracle dice.
Spoletta wrote: I'm assembling my sisters, and i'm not fond of the repentia heads.
I would like something less grim, possibily with really long hairs like banshees and wytches, but i cannot find suitable bits, even in 3rd party.
Someone has any good idea for a repentia head swap?
Long hair is always tough because you often have to model it around the model, so basically the hair has to go up. Daughters of khaine are good, but I think you'd need to do something with the crowns to make them repentia-y. Maybe paint them a dull, rusty iron with a little bit of blood dripping down the brows and onto the faces, implying that they're some kind of penitent torture device?
The problem with that is that i'm not using repentia heads specifically because i don't like the penitent look that much. A bit is fine, but the heads really go overboard for me, i was looking at a more berserk look for the heads. If as you correctly highlight, doing it with long hard may be quite difficult, i can do it with mid/short haired heads. Problem is that GW model range is quite scarce on female heads, so i was looking at 3rd party bits, but even there i can't find much.
Statuesque is definitely the best 3rd party female head source I've used.
Wow, i missed those! They are exactly what i was looking for!
Now i just have to understand if the sisters are a better fit for the heroic scale or the heroic narrow scale.
Also other than maybe 1-2 things nothing really needs to be FAQ'd/clarified. If your hoping for buffs or war gear changes I doubt it's happening in the FAQ.
Legends saw most of what we hoped was typos turn out to be true.
However I think Sisters are in PA5 which is hopefully soon!
A lot of stuff needs to FAQ'd(some of it because of GW's horrendous history with RAI):
Mortifiers: Are they intended to be allowed to advance and shoot? Because they can't.(guns can't be made assault after advancing because they can't be selected to shoot in the shooting phase.) If they weren't then why change them to assault instead of just allowing you to shoot without the minus one?
How does the AoF system actually work? (And don't give me that BUt mAh AttAcK seQuEncE! Crap. GW doesn't know the attack sequence well enough to do something like that on purpose, especially considering they copy-pasted the rule from Sigmar. It ALSO doesn't answer the question of fast dice)
Boxset canoness has an illegal loadout.
Why TF don't dominions get to scout in vehicles any more? It can't be to keep then from being 'op'.
Simulacrums: If you AoF the unit with Simulacrum first, can you AoF then again? It specifically says 'elsewhere'. If you AoF them first, can you count that as the Simulcrum AoF rather than your once per phase AoF? If not, why not? (Design wise, I understand the wording).
There are more but those are even more RAI questions.
Also, we're not in any of the announced PAs.
I feel like the intention is that you can advance and use the heavy bolters as assault weapons. Because if it wasn't, the pistol ability for heavy flamers is pointless, as they couldn't be chosen to shoot either if they're within 1" of enemy models RAW.
I see why people are arguing the RAW the ability is pretty useless, but it feels like GW expected you to select a unit, say "I'd like to shoot, I'll use this profile" and then you're good. The thing that's weird is I don't know why on Earth you'd want to keep heavy profile for either weapon? Assault is a straight up upgrade and the only downside I could see to pistol is if you had a heavy flamer and heavy Bolter on a single model and wanted to shoot both guns. It seems obvious enough that I can't imagine anything but the most anal of rules lawyers trying to call you on it.
Can't wait to see how they explain the canoness though. I didn't really want to use her because she's the only crappy model in the whole set, but given how much work they went through in the Dex to remove fun ways to kit out my canoness, you best believe I want to see their excuse for that. It wouldn't bug me so much if they'd actually stick to the no model no rules thing but all these exceptions for one army but 0 leeway in others is getting grating. Especially an army like sisters where all I gotta do to give her a weapon she doesn't have base is trim a hand or two from the line infantry you're going to bring anyways and I'm set.
They're going to have to allow it right? I mean they out and out stated the weapons she has in the codex. It's not like they could get away with "actually that's just a fancy stick, it's not a rod of office at all"
Also other than maybe 1-2 things nothing really needs to be FAQ'd/clarified. If your hoping for buffs or war gear changes I doubt it's happening in the FAQ.
Legends saw most of what we hoped was typos turn out to be true.
However I think Sisters are in PA5 which is hopefully soon!
We need by the very minimum the canoness loadout fixed or we have model we can't legally use WYSIWYG. Also the way MD works is def material for FAQ as it's literally Frequently Asked Question despite being clear as crystal. Time to put that one to bed for good.
There's possibility though for GW 2 week after codex is 2 weeks after codex gets released separately.
Spoletta wrote: I will have to try the Geminae at a certain point. They may suck stat wise, but there is merit in a fast character that costs 20 points, just to be a road bump which awards a miracle dice.
Spoletta wrote: I'm assembling my sisters, and i'm not fond of the repentia heads.
I would like something less grim, possibily with really long hairs like banshees and wytches, but i cannot find suitable bits, even in 3rd party.
Someone has any good idea for a repentia head swap?
Long hair is always tough because you often have to model it around the model, so basically the hair has to go up. Daughters of khaine are good, but I think you'd need to do something with the crowns to make them repentia-y. Maybe paint them a dull, rusty iron with a little bit of blood dripping down the brows and onto the faces, implying that they're some kind of penitent torture device?
The problem with that is that i'm not using repentia heads specifically because i don't like the penitent look that much. A bit is fine, but the heads really go overboard for me, i was looking at a more berserk look for the heads. If as you correctly highlight, doing it with long hard may be quite difficult, i can do it with mid/short haired heads. Problem is that GW model range is quite scarce on female heads, so i was looking at 3rd party bits, but even there i can't find much.
Statuesque is definitely the best 3rd party female head source I've used.
Wow, i missed those! They are exactly what i was looking for!
Now i just have to understand if the sisters are a better fit for the heroic scale or the heroic narrow scale.
Glad you like! I've used the heroic scale on space marines and the heroic narrow on necromunda gangers. If new sisters have the same size heads as sisters of silence I'd go heroic narrow.
What are the chances that the FAQ will wait until ~2 weeks after the full release of the Sisters codex? Because at this point, I'm guessing that was always their intent.
oomiestompa wrote: What are the chances that the FAQ will wait until ~2 weeks after the full release of the Sisters codex? Because at this point, I'm guessing that was always their intent.
If so, it's an even more craptastic way to do an army release. I would not be surprised if you are right.
I viewed this boxed set as a preview release with the full release being next year. To that end, I bought it. Kept the book and datacards, then sold the rest. I plan on buying plastics when they come in real, full kits, and not the monopose garbage.
I guess I set my expectations low enough to not be disappointed.
deviantduck wrote: I viewed this boxed set as a preview release with the full release being next year. To that end, I bought it. Kept the book and datacards, then sold the rest. I plan on buying plastics when they come in real, full kits, and not the monopose garbage.
I guess I set my expectations low enough to not be disappointed.
The models are fine, there's not really any 'useless' ones outside of the flamer girl and I could give 2 gaks about whether a model is monopose or not.
Not FAQing a codex, on the other hand, is super dumb.
Rynner wrote: Theres a video that shows our symbol. The new art work shows us fighting tau. Tau is book 5 I think. All the signs point to yes on us being in the book with Tau, which looks to be book 5.
The Box Canonesses, Act's of Faith, and Miracle dicing a d3 a big ones to me. The rest of it feels nit picky and rules lawrey.
100% rules lawyer BS. But, people gotta have their arguments at the table somehow.
Or, it's obviously ambiguous wordings combined with GW having a history of completely changing rules in FAQs because they didn't realize that the rule that they actually wrote didn't work.
You're a big fan of 'just read the primer!?!' Right? Well read the primer and tell me how you can make a mortifier run and shoot when the primer says it can't be selected to shoot after it advanced and the mortifier says you change it's heavy weapon to assault when it's selected to shoot.
In fact, read the primer and tell me how assault weapons can shoot after advancing AT ALL when the unit they're equipped to ALSO can't be selected to shoot in the shooting phase?
Is it because GW isn't that great at wording their rules so we as a community agree to ignore stuff they write in favor of RAI sometimes?
Is it because the rules are worded ambiguously and may or may not be intended to give permissions that are technically in violation of other rules (something like 'can shoot even after they advanced' or 'one or more miracle dice')
Is it because GW has these problems fairly consistently and has even RECENTLY had to make dramactic changes to multiple books in the FAQ because they couldn't accurately predict the consequences of their own actions?
deviantduck wrote: I viewed this boxed set as a preview release with the full release being next year. To that end, I bought it. Kept the book and datacards, then sold the rest. I plan on buying plastics when they come in real, full kits, and not the monopose garbage.
I guess I set my expectations low enough to not be disappointed.
The monopose gargage gives you hefty discount(like half) and new set of poses. Multiparts are quite multipose as well. Only weapon option changes but flamer is flamer, storm bolter is storm bolter. Poses are just as set
I don't mind the new poses. Considering the 5ish poses I've been using for the last 10 years, a handful of new plastic poses is a nice change of pace.
It wouldn't shock me if they waited for the official release to FAQ the book. In fact that might be what they are doing because they haven't even released it digitally yet. However it's the holidays and it could very likely be just normal Holiday delay. Well know one way or another soon enough.
A unit of 4 only gives up 3 points on gang busters and is a target for mark for death. Gets the most economy from advance and charge and fight twice stratagems, but is jailbait vs anti heavy infantry weapons (s6+, ap-1 or 2, d2 or 3). Mutiple max sized unita gives you redundancy and looks scary. On paper max sized unit(s) is the strongest way to play them.
3 units of 1 doesnt give up any points to gang busters but will be an easy butcher's bill. It's sub optimal but opens the door to interesting plays and utility. If you need them to stand stag for counter charge or zone out deep strike etc. It's also going to be a lot easier to hide a single model out of los than it will be to hide 4.
deviantduck wrote: I viewed this boxed set as a preview release with the full release being next year. To that end, I bought it. Kept the book and datacards, then sold the rest. I plan on buying plastics when they come in real, full kits, and not the monopose garbage.
I guess I set my expectations low enough to not be disappointed.
The monopose gargage gives you hefty discount(like half) and new set of poses. Multiparts are quite multipose as well. Only weapon option changes but flamer is flamer, storm bolter is storm bolter. Poses are just as set
Takes a bit of knife action, but my flamer girl is now a melta girl.
deviantduck wrote: I viewed this boxed set as a preview release with the full release being next year. To that end, I bought it. Kept the book and datacards, then sold the rest. I plan on buying plastics when they come in real, full kits, and not the monopose garbage.
I guess I set my expectations low enough to not be disappointed.
The monopose gargage gives you hefty discount(like half) and new set of poses. Multiparts are quite multipose as well. Only weapon option changes but flamer is flamer, storm bolter is storm bolter. Poses are just as set
Takes a bit of knife action, but my flamer girl is now a melta girl.
And she's now standing on an entire melted rhino on her 32mm base instead of the corpse, right?
deviantduck wrote: I viewed this boxed set as a preview release with the full release being next year. To that end, I bought it. Kept the book and datacards, then sold the rest. I plan on buying plastics when they come in real, full kits, and not the monopose garbage.
I guess I set my expectations low enough to not be disappointed.
The monopose gargage gives you hefty discount(like half) and new set of poses. Multiparts are quite multipose as well. Only weapon option changes but flamer is flamer, storm bolter is storm bolter. Poses are just as set
I'm not concerned about the discount. I only bought the set for the book. Even if I used the models in the set I have to get more when the real kits come out. I might as well not mess with the inferior kits and wait for the full kits. If the new kits are going to be uncustomizable monopose as well, I'll just stick with my metal sisters for the rank and file.
deviantduck wrote: I viewed this boxed set as a preview release with the full release being next year. To that end, I bought it. Kept the book and datacards, then sold the rest. I plan on buying plastics when they come in real, full kits, and not the monopose garbage.
I guess I set my expectations low enough to not be disappointed.
The monopose gargage gives you hefty discount(like half) and new set of poses. Multiparts are quite multipose as well. Only weapon option changes but flamer is flamer, storm bolter is storm bolter. Poses are just as set
I'm not concerned about the discount. I only bought the set for the book. Even if I used the models in the set I have to get more when the real kits come out. I might as well not mess with the inferior kits and wait for the full kits. If the new kits are going to be uncustomizable monopose as well, I'll just stick with my metal sisters for the rank and file.
I was going to stick with my old sisters but when you combine the new ruling about sisters needing to be on 32s in ITC/LVO combined with the fact that I hate basing donuts and think they look like trash I'm going to swap over.
I'd rather just paint a new army in the order color scheme they are going to be as opposed to rebasing my army. A model designed for 25mm put on a 32mm just looks off. Unfortunately though I'll have to use basing donuts for LVO.
deviantduck wrote: I viewed this boxed set as a preview release with the full release being next year. To that end, I bought it. Kept the book and datacards, then sold the rest. I plan on buying plastics when they come in real, full kits, and not the monopose garbage.
I guess I set my expectations low enough to not be disappointed.
The monopose gargage gives you hefty discount(like half) and new set of poses. Multiparts are quite multipose as well. Only weapon option changes but flamer is flamer, storm bolter is storm bolter. Poses are just as set
Takes a bit of knife action, but my flamer girl is now a melta girl.
And she's now standing on an entire melted rhino on her 32mm base instead of the corpse, right?
deviantduck wrote: I viewed this boxed set as a preview release with the full release being next year. To that end, I bought it. Kept the book and datacards, then sold the rest. I plan on buying plastics when they come in real, full kits, and not the monopose garbage.
I guess I set my expectations low enough to not be disappointed.
The monopose gargage gives you hefty discount(like half) and new set of poses. Multiparts are quite multipose as well. Only weapon option changes but flamer is flamer, storm bolter is storm bolter. Poses are just as set
Takes a bit of knife action, but my flamer girl is now a melta girl.
And she's now standing on an entire melted rhino on her 32mm base instead of the corpse, right?
deviantduck wrote: I viewed this boxed set as a preview release with the full release being next year. To that end, I bought it. Kept the book and datacards, then sold the rest. I plan on buying plastics when they come in real, full kits, and not the monopose garbage.
I guess I set my expectations low enough to not be disappointed.
The monopose gargage gives you hefty discount(like half) and new set of poses. Multiparts are quite multipose as well. Only weapon option changes but flamer is flamer, storm bolter is storm bolter. Poses are just as set
Takes a bit of knife action, but my flamer girl is now a melta girl.
I did this too, it was really easy! All I needed to do was trim the nozzle, remove the gas tank, cut it in half and attach it to the side.
Ill probably go back later and make some holes in the barrel
deviantduck wrote: I viewed this boxed set as a preview release with the full release being next year. To that end, I bought it. Kept the book and datacards, then sold the rest. I plan on buying plastics when they come in real, full kits, and not the monopose garbage.
I guess I set my expectations low enough to not be disappointed.
The monopose gargage gives you hefty discount(like half) and new set of poses. Multiparts are quite multipose as well. Only weapon option changes but flamer is flamer, storm bolter is storm bolter. Poses are just as set
I'm not concerned about the discount. I only bought the set for the book. Even if I used the models in the set I have to get more when the real kits come out. I might as well not mess with the inferior kits and wait for the full kits. If the new kits are going to be uncustomizable monopose as well, I'll just stick with my metal sisters for the rank and file.
I was going to stick with my old sisters but when you combine the new ruling about sisters needing to be on 32s in ITC/LVO combined with the fact that I hate basing donuts and think they look like trash I'm going to swap over.
I'd rather just paint a new army in the order color scheme they are going to be as opposed to rebasing my army. A model designed for 25mm put on a 32mm just looks off. Unfortunately though I'll have to use basing donuts for LVO.
Whilst annoying and expensive, I've always thought 25s were too small for SoB anyway. So, I'm rebasing them. I've been running Seraphim and all Characters on 32s since 7th.
Sentionaut wrote: So what's the optimal number of Penitent Engines/Moritifiers that should be run in a single unit these days?
I know 3 used to be the golden number (and maybe the limit?) for pengines, curious if people still feel the same way.
5. Attrittion is going to happen. I'd do it up proper and hit more units at a time.
Depends which way they rule morts. Bare in mind 5 gives up full points on Gang Busters on a unit which is easy to kill. If you are taking 1 unit then you are probably going to take 4 so it's not an easy pick against you, does give up 1 point on marked for death but that isn't exactly huge. If you commit to giving up 4 points on Gang Busters then you are probably looking at going down the route of multiple max units of morts/pens.
Sentionaut wrote: So what's the optimal number of Penitent Engines/Moritifiers that should be run in a single unit these days?
I know 3 used to be the golden number (and maybe the limit?) for pengines, curious if people still feel the same way.
5. Attrittion is going to happen. I'd do it up proper and hit more units at a time.
Depends which way they rule morts. Bare in mind 5 gives up full points on Gang Busters on a unit which is easy to kill. If you are taking 1 unit then you are probably going to take 4 so it's not an easy pick against you, does give up 1 point on marked for death but that isn't exactly huge. If you commit to giving up 4 points on Gang Busters then you are probably looking at going down the route of multiple max units of morts/pens.
Remember however that it isnt the points you give up. It's the points you take. So for me, mitigating the enemy from being able to kill more or to be able to hold more is worth a lot of points too. It isnt as if you're not scoring secondaries yourself in the process. So I do not discount that its quite likely you'll give up some points, I think it's Sisters of Battle and that you are already forced into a hyper aggressive stance to win with them. Whether its 5 Mortifiers or 4 PL7 squads dying, at end of day, you're going to leak points. I'm not sure trying to stop the enemy from getting a few is reason not to take many more!
The Sisters are uber efficient at generating damage but they need board control in my opinion and Mortifiers give you the way to stall enemies. CLEARLY they are susceptible to certain Thunderhammer type units and that does mean you are going to have to account for that in deployment and screening and so on. But those are all adjustments you can make.
Anywho, the Mortifiers are terrifying it would appear to me and to have that kind of threat absorb the kind of position and attention it will seems like it is entirely in our best interests.
I'm not saying thy're terrible, i'm just saying that making it easy/difficult for your oponent at the list building stage should be given due consideration. if you are only taking 1 unit and know that it will give up full points on a secondary then you have to consider the option for it to give up 3 points instead or to go all in on multiple units which would put, for example 12 points of gang busters on the table, of which you're opponent will only ever be able to score 4.
At this point I'd dissagree with the idea of Sisters being forced into a hyper aggressive stance to win. To me it seems like a hold over from previous itterations. I do 100% agree with you that you need board control to win, however it's something I'm very must still pondering over.
What I will point out though is that despite how good morts/pens look on paper, they can be hampered imeasurable by terrain, vehicles can't move through walls and have a complete inability to tackle anything inside a magic box. In that regard they very much lose out to infantry melee options, even the Triumph can entre a magic box. 9 Arcos and a priest in a rhino are equally as worthy of consideration. Even repentia, although optimal as bloody rose, having the S+1 buff from the imagifier instread of Order Trait means that they can be taken by any order without being entirely useless.
I also agree that kill more/hold more is worth a lot of points too and can end up being where the game is decided. If we're talking about running a brigade of MSU sisters. Regardless of how potentually durable 3+(ignore -2)/4++/6+++ is, the door is already open to giving up kill more so due consideration has to be given to how best to score hold more reliably every turn.
Bought the box and admitingly it's going to be a while before I expand my sister's army beyond it. I have already a lot of Primaris and Custodes. Which would be better to pair with some of the box?
Sentionaut wrote: So what's the optimal number of Penitent Engines/Moritifiers that should be run in a single unit these days?
I know 3 used to be the golden number (and maybe the limit?) for pengines, curious if people still feel the same way.
5. Attrittion is going to happen. I'd do it up proper and hit more units at a time.
Depends which way they rule morts. Bare in mind 5 gives up full points on Gang Busters on a unit which is easy to kill. If you are taking 1 unit then you are probably going to take 4 so it's not an easy pick against you, does give up 1 point on marked for death but that isn't exactly huge. If you commit to giving up 4 points on Gang Busters then you are probably looking at going down the route of multiple max units of morts/pens.
How does being outside us affects? Gangbuster is itc thing which is largely us thing.
Sentionaut wrote: So what's the optimal number of Penitent Engines/Moritifiers that should be run in a single unit these days?
I know 3 used to be the golden number (and maybe the limit?) for pengines, curious if people still feel the same way.
5. Attrittion is going to happen. I'd do it up proper and hit more units at a time.
Depends which way they rule morts. Bare in mind 5 gives up full points on Gang Busters on a unit which is easy to kill. If you are taking 1 unit then you are probably going to take 4 so it's not an easy pick against you, does give up 1 point on marked for death but that isn't exactly huge. If you commit to giving up 4 points on Gang Busters then you are probably looking at going down the route of multiple max units of morts/pens.
How does being outside us affects? Gangbuster is itc thing which is largely us thing.
Really depends on the format you and the meta you are playing. If there is a lot of anti heavy infantry shooting, haywire, anti tank or if kill points matter or not, mileage will vary. As has already been said, max sized units of morts are the best investment on paper.
it makes sense, compared to other codices the sisters release is in much smaller hands so errors might not get spotted as fast, also the only people with the 'dex are presumably more hard core fans.
Finally had my first game with the Sisters. There's a lot to remember. Ended up drowning in miracle dice because I'd forget to use them.
Comfy win though, played GSC cult and they just had no answer for my resilience with Valorous Heart,
Had 3 Penitent Engines, 8 Repentia and 6 Arco-flagelants and they're all walking blenders as anticipated. Exorcist killed anything it looked at.Sisters just chilled on objectives, At one point a 5-woman squad in cover tanked 15 hand flamers and took no casualties.
I think I love this army already. A lot to remember though
Had 3 Penitent Engines, 8 Repentia and 6 Arco-flagelants and they're all walking blenders as anticipated. Exorcist killed anything it looked at.Sisters just chilled on objectives, At one point a 5-woman squad in cover tanked 15 hand flamers and took no casualties.
People that keep saying "just throw dice at them" are really underestimating how good 2+ saves are :p
Had 3 Penitent Engines, 8 Repentia and 6 Arco-flagelants and they're all walking blenders as anticipated. Exorcist killed anything it looked at.Sisters just chilled on objectives, At one point a 5-woman squad in cover tanked 15 hand flamers and took no casualties.
People that keep saying "just throw dice at them" are really underestimating how good 2+ saves are :p
Yep. I failed a single save and then 6+++ shrugged it just to add insult to injury. The resilience they offer for their points is staggering.
tneva82 wrote: A) luck is thing
B) valorous heart doesn't matter much, vs hand flamer
C) 15 hand flamer,52.5 hits, 26.25 wounds, 4.375 past save, 5 past 6+++
Party pooper. Well aware that it was a lucky upswing, but the nice thing about having a 2+ and 6+++ is that the luck doesn't need to swing as far to give you that result.
tneva82 wrote: A) luck is thing
B) valorous heart doesn't matter much, vs hand flamer
C) 15 hand flamer,52.5 hits, 26.25 wounds, 4.375 past save, 5 past 6+++
Weird way to write that. How could you possibly take more damage from wound shrug past an armour save. Your precision jumps around at each step. Real hard to understand your numbers. I had to go run them myself to see what you're trying to even say given how it looked like you were tweaking the output to match your argument.
tneva82 wrote: A) luck is thing
B) valorous heart doesn't matter much, vs hand flamer
C) 15 hand flamer,52.5 hits, 26.25 wounds, 4.375 past save, 5 past 6+++
Weird way to write that. How could you possibly take more damage from wound shrug past an armour save. Your precision jumps around at each step. Real hard to understand your numbers. I had to go run them myself to see what you're trying to even say given how it looked like you were tweaking the output to match your argument.
52.5 shots
26.25 wounds caused
4.376 past saves
3.646 dead models
To note: the same squad does 2.917 wounds to a knight
tneva82 wrote: A) luck is thing
B) valorous heart doesn't matter much, vs hand flamer
C) 15 hand flamer,52.5 hits, 26.25 wounds, 4.375 past save, 5 past 6+++
Weird way to write that. How could you possibly take more damage from wound shrug past an armour save. Your precision jumps around at each step. Real hard to understand your numbers. I had to go run them myself to see what you're trying to even say given how it looked like you were tweaking the output to match your argument.
Typo on last one. And should i write 26.250 just for fun of it? 26.25 is 26.25. Further precision not needed because there's no further decimals.
Bohoo keyboard weirded out on last number. Real tweaking gee. 4.375 alone shows no casualties is extreme swing because rolling 4 6's on 4 dice less than 0.1% chance.
tneva82 wrote: A) luck is thing
B) valorous heart doesn't matter much, vs hand flamer
C) 15 hand flamer,52.5 hits, 26.25 wounds, 4.375 past save, 5 past 6+++
Weird way to write that. How could you possibly take more damage from wound shrug past an armour save. Your precision jumps around at each step. Real hard to understand your numbers. I had to go run them myself to see what you're trying to even say given how it looked like you were tweaking the output to match your argument.
Typo on last one. And should i write 26.250 just for fun of it? 26.25 is 26.25. Further precision not needed because there's no further decimals.
Bohoo keyboard weirded out on last number. Real tweaking gee. 4.375 alone shows no casualties is extreme swing because rolling 4 6's on 4 dice less than 0.1% chance.
Ah well. Be dishonest if you want
I'm still scratching my heads to where the 15 hand flamers came from. It's like a missed a page and I'm trying to fill in the gaps.
If you are starting small 2 boxes of basic sisters, imagifier, another canoness or missionary and exorcist would be my route to go. Seraphim for special pistols but they probably are wave 2 releases so not coming in january.
