drakerocket wrote: It's very unlikely she gets bloody rose. And 'kills guard squad' is a painfully low barrier for a 200 point melee unit, same with 'kill an intercessor squad'. The standard bloody rose cannoness does it and she's 65 (albeit with a relic and WLT).
I like the model, I like the concept. Honestly, I'd actually root pretty hard for her to not have much more than shown and clock in closer to like 175. Much more usable if she does.
I mean, she also kills just about any infantry character in one round while not dying herself so...there's that.
No one really uses melee infantry characters for fighting. A succubus would eat her. I guess dra'zar might have a tough time though I don't think she kills him back. I can't really think of any other 'meta' melee characters.
Also comparing her to calgar is silly. No one takes him and he is quite bad. If she were just as good as calgar, no one would take her.
drakerocket wrote: No one really uses melee infantry characters for fighting. A succubus would eat her. I guess dra'zar might have a tough time though I don't think she kills him back. I can't really think of any other 'meta' melee characters.
Also comparing her to calgar is silly. No one takes him and he is quite bad. If she were just as good as calgar, no one would take her.
She kills a succubus in one round and doesn't die to return hits. Literally any character that has 6 wounds and a 4++ she kills on average dice between her rerolls and the passion.
Um. She totally dies to return hits; and the succubus is going to fight first. It's not a super fair comparison, razorflail comp edge is nutters, but they exist and are prevalent.
drakerocket wrote: Um. She totally dies to return hits; and the succubus is going to fight first. It's not a super fair comparison, razorflail comp edge is nutters, but they exist and are prevalent.
Succubus is slower than Abbess thanks to easy run and charge. Abbess fights first unless succ has draz or Vexor. Course Succ also just dies to her shooting too so it's not hugely relevant.
Also with her damage reduction she's on average more survivable than Guillamen, who survives against the full succ combo about a quarter of the time.
Bored of current stuff and the Abbess, let's talk the new units:
Melee Celestians: Potential to totally replace repentia if their output is even 70% of what a Repentia's is. Even failing that they could see significant play in more midrange or footslog bloody rose lists with the shield and actual full power armor being able to fully utilize both imagifier buffs. Unlikely to be of any significant use outside of bloody rose lists though.
Nundams: If they're vehicles they'll be competing directly with Mortifiers which would be unfortunate. Even with being able to benefit from more buffs than the morties, they'd have to be very competitively costed to compete with Morties having double the firepower and likely very comparable melee.
If infantry, could potentially completely eclipse morties and become a new meta option.
Dogmata: Sisters Chaplain unlikely to see play considering how stacked sisters are for buff characters. The only niche would be for allowing retributors to cap objectives and shoot in the same turn (I assume that's what her 'actions' focused ability is)
Banner chick: Probably just an ancient. Unlikely to be useful.
Castigator: Guaranteed trash. In fact so trash that in attempting to make it not trash they'll make the Exorcist (which is outclassed by retributors but distinctly NOT trash) trash.
I highly doubt the Celestians will replace Repentia. Its an offensive vs defensive CC unit.
Repentia will most likely be cheaper and have more output. That efficiency and ability to consistently trade up matters a lot more then their ability to survive after making contact.
Same reason why I can see them having a good place outside of Bloody Rose. They are a tough melee unit that stand on an objective and say "come get me". The extra AP doesn't change their ability to soak up a charge.
ERJAK wrote: Bored of current stuff and the Abbess, let's talk the new units:
Melee Celestians: Potential to totally replace repentia if their output is even 70% of what a Repentia's is. Even failing that they could see significant play in more midrange or footslog bloody rose lists with the shield and actual full power armor being able to fully utilize both imagifier buffs. Unlikely to be of any significant use outside of bloody rose lists though.
Nundams: If they're vehicles they'll be competing directly with Mortifiers which would be unfortunate. Even with being able to benefit from more buffs than the morties, they'd have to be very competitively costed to compete with Morties having double the firepower and likely very comparable melee.
If infantry, could potentially completely eclipse morties and become a new meta option.
Dogmata: Sisters Chaplain unlikely to see play considering how stacked sisters are for buff characters. The only niche would be for allowing retributors to cap objectives and shoot in the same turn (I assume that's what her 'actions' focused ability is)
Banner chick: Probably just an ancient. Unlikely to be useful.
Castigator: Guaranteed trash. In fact so trash that in attempting to make it not trash they'll make the Exorcist (which is outclassed by retributors but distinctly NOT trash) trash.
I'll reply to each of these:
Celestian Sacresants (the melee girls): Depends on points, but hopefully they won't completely outclass Repentia. Repentia are currently a "cruise missile" type unit, which obliterates one thing completely and then dies. The Sacresants are probably a true brawler unit, able to dish out pain and take it in return. The points costs will probably tell the tale though, and who knows whether these or Repentia will have CORE (that will matter a lot). I definitely agree about the Bloody Rose thing though; that order is the best place for any melee unit. Melee units feel very anemic in any other order.
Paragon Warsuits (Nundams): I expect Mortifiers to get some kind of a nerf, either a points hike or loss of BS/WS or something. Even if not, it could be similar to the Sacresants/Repentia comparison, in that these are far better defensively, but weaker offensively. Of course, Morties are not terrible defensively either. If Paragons get CORE, they'll outclass Morties as they benefit from a lot more buffs, strats, and special rules. Again, it may come down to relative points costs.
Dogmata: Agree on this one. Sisters are already loaded with buff characters; we don't need more of them. Maybe this one will be better than an Imagifier, maybe not, but unless the Imagifier gets weaker somehow and the special rules for the Dogmata make her a really strong choice, she's probably skippable.
Banner bearer: I doubt she'll be "just an ancient" but like the Dogmata there may not be a place for her. Also, I got the impression that she's a unique character, so we'll have to see what keywords she has.
Castigator: I have to agree somewhat here; tanks in general are not great due to not having CORE and the existence of units like Eradicators, Attack Bikes, Plasma Inceptors, Retributors, and more recently Drukhari's new and improved Dark Lances. Plus these have to compete for Heavy slots with Retributors, Exorcists, and Mortifiers. If it's competitively costed, it could be okay, but even then it'll be iffy.
Ordana wrote: I highly doubt the Celestians will replace Repentia. Its an offensive vs defensive CC unit.
Repentia will most likely be cheaper and have more output. That efficiency and ability to consistently trade up matters a lot more then their ability to survive after making contact.
Same reason why I can see them having a good place outside of Bloody Rose. They are a tough melee unit that stand on an objective and say "come get me". The extra AP doesn't change their ability to soak up a charge.
It comes down to a price-output-defense equation. If it ends up that the Celestians can still kill most of the things repentia end up going against for similar points, the extra longevity could crowd repentia out.
I disagree on the second point. No melee unit that benefits from bloody rose will ever see meaningful play outside of it. If they're costed appropriately at +1A +1AP with the best melee stratagem in the book, there's no way they're not heavily overcosted without it. Or vice versa, they're costed fairly without and BUSTED with it.
The idea that any T3 W1 unit could 'soak up the charge' of anything is ridiculous. They couls have a 2++ and still die to assault intercessors.
ERJAK wrote: Bored of current stuff and the Abbess, let's talk the new units:
Melee Celestians: Potential to totally replace repentia if their output is even 70% of what a Repentia's is. Even failing that they could see significant play in more midrange or footslog bloody rose lists with the shield and actual full power armor being able to fully utilize both imagifier buffs. Unlikely to be of any significant use outside of bloody rose lists though.
Nundams: If they're vehicles they'll be competing directly with Mortifiers which would be unfortunate. Even with being able to benefit from more buffs than the morties, they'd have to be very competitively costed to compete with Morties having double the firepower and likely very comparable melee.
If infantry, could potentially completely eclipse morties and become a new meta option.
Dogmata: Sisters Chaplain unlikely to see play considering how stacked sisters are for buff characters. The only niche would be for allowing retributors to cap objectives and shoot in the same turn (I assume that's what her 'actions' focused ability is)
Banner chick: Probably just an ancient. Unlikely to be useful.
Castigator: Guaranteed trash. In fact so trash that in attempting to make it not trash they'll make the Exorcist (which is outclassed by retributors but distinctly NOT trash) trash.
I'll reply to each of these:
Celestian Sacresants (the melee girls): Depends on points, but hopefully they won't completely outclass Repentia. Repentia are currently a "cruise missile" type unit, which obliterates one thing completely and then dies. The Sacresants are probably a true brawler unit, able to dish out pain and take it in return. The points costs will probably tell the tale though, and who knows whether these or Repentia will have CORE (that will matter a lot). I definitely agree about the Bloody Rose thing though; that order is the best place for any melee unit. Melee units feel very anemic in any other order.
Paragon Warsuits (Nundams): I expect Mortifiers to get some kind of a nerf, either a points hike or loss of BS/WS or something. Even if not, it could be similar to the Sacresants/Repentia comparison, in that these are far better defensively, but weaker offensively. Of course, Morties are not terrible defensively either. If Paragons get CORE, they'll outclass Morties as they benefit from a lot more buffs, strats, and special rules. Again, it may come down to relative points costs.
Dogmata: Agree on this one. Sisters are already loaded with buff characters; we don't need more of them. Maybe this one will be better than an Imagifier, maybe not, but unless the Imagifier gets weaker somehow and the special rules for the Dogmata make her a really strong choice, she's probably skippable.
Banner bearer: I doubt she'll be "just an ancient" but like the Dogmata there may not be a place for her. Also, I got the impression that she's a unique character, so we'll have to see what keywords she has.
Castigator: I have to agree somewhat here; tanks in general are not great due to not having CORE and the existence of units like Eradicators, Attack Bikes, Plasma Inceptors, Retributors, and more recently Drukhari's new and improved Dark Lances. Plus these have to compete for Heavy slots with Retributors, Exorcists, and Mortifiers. If it's competitively costed, it could be okay, but even then it'll be iffy.
I actually doubt CORE will matter for repentia. Instead of taking a preacher, you'll take a repetia superior. It's a small nerf ultimately.
In fact, I don't personally think CORE will matter much at all. Almost of the units who even have a chance to not get core, tend to function mostly independently already. It's not like morties for example could benefit from reroll 1s before and nundams will have to deal with Canoness, etc either being inside a vehicle or falling behind. Obvious exception is vehicles. CORE will suck for exos and castis.
I think the big thing people are forgetting is that we don't know if/how GW will change Orders and the associated buffs. BR could be different enough to where it's no longer an automatic BIS Order meaning that Repentia will probably be just as good in the other orders.
Orders and Warlord Traits and Stratagems are going to change. Even if the datasheets stay the same (and we know they aren't because of leaks) Sisters lists are going to change. Maybe not much, maybe a lot depending on Order Convictions, MD, what buffs the Banner and the Dogmata hand out, how Imagifiers and Dialogi change, and how Sacred Rights change.
Just the change to mecanics is going to change up how we play Sisters. It's fun to speculate on individual units but lets wait until we at least get a "leak" pertaining to the aforementioned mechanics of Sisters.
jivardi wrote: I think the big thing people are forgetting is that we don't know if/how GW will change Orders and the associated buffs. BR could be different enough to where it's no longer an automatic BIS Order meaning that Repentia will probably be just as good in the other orders.
Orders and Warlord Traits and Stratagems are going to change. Even if the datasheets stay the same (and we know they aren't because of leaks) Sisters lists are going to change. Maybe not much, maybe a lot depending on Order Convictions, MD, what buffs the Banner and the Dogmata hand out, how Imagifiers and Dialogi change, and how Sacred Rights change.
Just the change to mecanics is going to change up how we play Sisters. It's fun to speculate on individual units but lets wait until we at least get a "leak" pertaining to the aforementioned mechanics of Sisters.
So we sort of have to make the assumption here that even something that sees changes will stay in roughly the same spirit (i.e. Bloody rose will continue to be the melee favoring order and valorous heart will be the defensive favoring order) because analysis is a giant waste of time if we have to try and account for something like bloody rose becoming the 'increase the AP and S of heavy weapons by 1' Order. Obviously the changes could be completely sweeping. We could technically have S6 AP-4 bolters or 2++invuls, so we have to make some assumptions. In that vain:
I believe that the book will not be significantly different outside of the new units, toned down miracle dice(dammit) and some adjustments to a few relics, warlord traits, stratagems, and the weakest Order traits. There will be significant changes to the way list buidling works but the core of how the army functions will not change. Based on this assumption:
Anything less than current bloody rose will cause repentia to see vastly reduced play, assuming no datasheet rewrite. If they tune BR down so that Repentia don't massively overperform as BR relative to the other orders, both BR and repentia won't have the crazy math behind them they do right now and they'll see significantly less use.
If they tune up the other order melee bonuses, repentia(and to a lesser extent BR) will most likely be crowded out by more defensively efficient options like Sacrosancts/Valorous Heart. Remeber that 'just as good in other orders' is much more likely to mean 'just as terrible as they are in valorous heart' than it is 'just as good as they are in bloody rose.'
And the whole point of speculation is to...speculate about things. Waiting until you get all the information to speculate is like waiting until your shift starts to drive to work. You've already missed your chance.
Absolutely speculate now, just don't buy anything or lock in lists for december tournaments yet.
From an Italian MFM MK2 leak shared on Reddit. Key parts...
Celestine and her Geminae are back to one unit
Zephyrim are now fast attack (yay!)
They moved to make room for Paragons, who are elite (oof!)
Morven Vahl is 265
Nullrods and Simulacrums cost points again
Condemnor bolt guns are now the same as a heavy bolter (lol wut), so this hopefully portends a rule change
No more special Seraphim hand flamer price
Possible typo for Paragons price
New mechanic called Blessings/Benedictions of the Faithful (translation iffy), but an Italian speaker in the thread confirmed that some of these have the same name as current Sacred Rites from the Italian release
Same Italian speaker pointed out that some weapons, like storm bolters and some flamers have a new name in their entries - they aren't convinced this means anything but flavour, citing what they've seen in other GW Italian releases
Battle Sister Squads now 5-20 unit size
Missionary can take a power maul, and Preacher has the same weapon option listed as Pious Vorne from Blackstone, so that's kinda neat
Notable large point jumps for both the Triumph and Battle Sanctum hopefully suggest new rules for each
Deets behind spoiler:
Spoiler:
Down
Preachers down 10
Missionary down 5
Brazier down 5
Palatine down 5
Crusaders down 5
Repentia down 2 (and listed as 4-10 model units?)
Zephyrim down 1
Arcos down 2
Exorcist down 15
Retributors down 2
Immolator down 5, but only the HB loadout. Immolation flamer is now 10 points (130 total), and the twin multi-melta jumped to 30 points (150 total)
Up
Condemnor Boltguns now 10
Null Rods now 10
Storm Bolters now 5
Simulacrums back to 5
Battle Sanctum up 25
Penitent Engine up 5
Hand Flamer now 5 for Seraphim
Triumph up 25
Junith up 15
Celestine up 30 to 200, but includes both Geminae now
New units
Morven Vahl is 265
Aestred & Dolan are 90
Paragons appear to be locked at 3 member units and 240 for the unit, 10 per MM upgrade
Dogmata is 65
Sacresants are 14, with upgrades including a plasma pistol, hand flamer, inferno pistol, or a 'spear of faith'? (translation may be off)
Castigator is 160 with 5 for battle cannon, 5 for HK missile, and 5 for storm bolter
New mechanic - blessings/benedictions of the faithful - looks to be the unit/HQ upgrade table everybody gets in 9th these days. Translations are iffy here...
25 Possessed Shots?
25 Judgment of the Just?
20 Grace of the Emperor?
15 Divine Liberation?
40 Word of the Emperor?
30 Binding Radiance?
Vilgeir wrote: From an Italian MFM MK2 leak shared on Reddit. Key parts...
Celestine and her Geminae are back to one unit
Zephyrim are now fast attack (yay!)
They moved to make room for Paragons, who are elite (oof!)
Morven Vahl is 265
Nullrods and Simulacrums cost points again
Condemnor bolt guns are now the same as a heavy bolter (lol wut), so this hopefully portends a rule change
No more special Seraphim hand flamer price
Possible typo for Paragons price
New mechanic called Blessings/Benedictions of the Faithful (translation iffy), but an Italian speaker in the thread confirmed that some of these have the same name as current Sacred Rites from the Italian release
Same Italian speaker pointed out that some weapons, like storm bolters and some flamers have a new name in their entries - they aren't convinced this means anything but flavour, citing what they've seen in other GW Italian releases
Battle Sister Squads now 5-20 unit size
Missionary can take a power maul, and Preacher has the same weapon option listed as Pious Vorne from Blackstone, so that's kinda neat
Notable large point jumps for both the Triumph and Battle Sanctum hopefully suggest new rules for each
Deets behind spoiler:
Spoiler:
Down
Preachers down 10
Missionary down 5
Brazier down 5
Palatine down 5
Crusaders down 5
Repentia down 2 (and listed as 4-10 model units?)
Zephyrim down 1
Arcos down 2
Exorcist down 15
Retributors down 2
Immolator down 5, but only the HB loadout. Immolation flamer is now 10 points (130 total), and the twin multi-melta jumped to 30 points (150 total)
Up
Condemnor Boltguns now 10
Null Rods now 10
Storm Bolters now 5
Simulacrums back to 5
Battle Sanctum up 25
Penitent Engine up 5
Hand Flamer now 5 for Seraphim
Triumph up 25
Junith up 15
Celestine up 30 to 200, but includes both Geminae now
New units
Morven Vahl is 265
Aestred & Dolan are 90
Paragons appear to be locked at 3 member units and 240 for the unit, 10 per MM upgrade
Dogmata is 65
Sacresants are 14, with upgrades including a plasma pistol, hand flamer, inferno pistol, or a 'spear of faith'? (translation may be off)
Castigator is 160 with 5 for battle cannon, 5 for HK missile, and 5 for storm bolter
New mechanic - blessings/benedictions of the faithful - looks to be the unit/HQ upgrade table everybody gets in 9th these days. Translations are iffy here...
25 Possessed Shots?
25 Judgment of the Just?
20 Grace of the Emperor?
15 Divine Liberation?
40 Word of the Emperor?
30 Binding Radiance?
The more I think about it the less convinced I am that Morven will be any good. Her aura ability is done better by cheaper models, her melee ability is fine but a properly kitted canoness can do roughly the same damage (if not significantly more against some targets) her targeted buff isn't particularly great when you figure retributors almost certainly take a big nerf here. At 265 she has to buff better than the triumph+ a Palantine, fight better than the triumph+ a Palantine, and survive more damage than the Triumph+ a Palantine.
As for the rest of it: Zephyrim and Celestine changes are amazing, preachers and missionaries definitely lost something to be that cheap (my guess is +1 attack aura), bloody rose is likely seeing a nerf going by the changes to Repentia, Retributors are definitely seeing a nerf, either removal of run and shoot or storm of fire, storm bolters are trash, immolator changes don't make any sense, why reduce the chassis price if you're just going to raise the cost of guns only it can use? Triumph better have gotten some serious rules fixes because that bump kills it otherwise, same but moreso for the battle sanctum.
Castigator is gak, 165pts for a rhino chassis with a battlecannon is awful, the immolator is more point efficient and immolators are a solid 25-35pts overpriced themselves. If the leaked profile is accurate, Exorcists are at best mediocre, even assuming indirect fire. With the old profile, they might be a viable choice again.
Battle hymns are either a much bigger deal than they've shown so far or all the characters that have access to them are shelf decorations. 90pts for an 'Ancient' you can't give relics to? 10+ point bumps on characters that weren't seeing any play anyway? I don't like it at all. They're pushing the price of these characters for buffs that not only aren't particularly strong but also can fail to go off at critical junctures.
Overall I'm more worried about the codex than I was. They appear to have shifted some of the army's power away from reliable sources towards (stupid) 'Roll a 3+ to see if you can warhammer today!' buffs.
Yeah, I am really not getting the excitement around vahl. I can't see why I would want her.
The nundams are also weird. This a very strange meta to want 80 point vehicles in. I was hoping for something more like terminators. Maybe they will have something to make them bonkers tough like halving damage.
Still all that being said no codex has yet been a nerf so I don't think it is likely this one will be either.
drakerocket wrote: Yeah, I am really not getting the excitement around vahl. I can't see why I would want her.
The nundams are also weird. This a very strange meta to want 80 point vehicles in. I was hoping for something more like terminators. Maybe they will have something to make them bonkers tough like halving damage.
Still all that being said no codex has yet been a nerf so I don't think it is likely this one will be either.
Depends on the timetable and your definition of 'codex'. Our beta codex wasn't even CLOSE to as good as the index list was.
The more I think about it the less convinced I am that Morven will be any good. Her aura ability is done better by cheaper models, her melee ability is fine but a properly kitted canoness can do roughly the same damage (if not significantly more against some targets) her targeted buff isn't particularly great when you figure retributors almost certainly take a big nerf here. At 265 she has to buff better than the triumph+ a Palantine, fight better than the triumph+ a Palantine, and survive more damage than the Triumph+ a Palantine.
She has the proper price for her profile compared to other armies, i think.
But like all 200-350 characters, the point investment for a model that will be targeted and erased turn 1 is not worth it. Same for triumph who got a totally undeserved price hike.
immolator changes don't make any sense, why reduce the chassis price if you're just going to raise the cost of guns only it can use?triumph better have gotten some serious rules fixes because that bump kills it otherwise, same but moreso for the battle sanctum.
Castigator is gak, 165pts for a rhino chassis with a battlecannon is awful, the immolator is more point efficient and immolators are a solid 25-35pts overpriced themselves. If the leaked profile is accurate, Exorcists are at best mediocre, even assuming indirect fire. With the old profile, they might be a viable choice again.
I agree, all Sister tanks are now overpriced for their defensive profile. They all need at least a 30 pts reduction to be considered (more like 40).
Battle hymns are either a much bigger deal than they've shown so far or all the characters that have access to them are shelf decorations. 90pts for an 'Ancient' you can't give relics to? 10+ point bumps on characters that weren't seeing any play anyway? I don't like it at all. They're pushing the price of these characters for buffs that not only aren't particularly strong but also can fail to go off at critical junctures.
Yeah can't believe that they actually raised characters points.... at best they should have stayed the same. They all have no offensive abilities to speak of, barely better than a celestian superior, and oly offer one weak ability that nobody care about.
Overall I'm more worried about the codex than I was. They appear to have shifted some of the army's power away from reliable sources towards (stupid) 'Roll a 3+ to see if you can warhammer today!' buffs.
That's the feeling i get overall. Cool looking, overpriced models, which will fall to the lightest sneeze, and struggle at damaging anything outside of aura stacking and lucky rolls.
Alsp, no word from miracle dice yet, but rumour has it they'll be nerfed.
Vilgeir wrote: Don't lose your minds over a glimpse into the Codex, please - that wasn't the reason I was sharing.
Yep there is so much we don't know. But when I see Repentia are cheaper i think, why? Do they use Keywords? Do they not benefit from MD or Sacred Rites anymore like Acros? Or is it that 9th as a whole has been powered creeped up? Over all not worth really diving heavily into other than more questions which will be answered soon enough anyways.
Vilgeir wrote: Don't lose your minds over a glimpse into the Codex, please - that wasn't the reason I was sharing.
This is inference and speculation, not 'losing our minds'. Negative opinion isn't inherently hysterical. The changes we've seen so far hint at a slightly negative context around them. That's all we said (with admittedly some gamer-y terminology like 'trash' making it seem more dramatic than it actually is.)
Still, saying 'I'm not a huge fan of the general trends I'm seeing' is not in any way 'losing your mind'.
Can I just say that there's a really weird double standard about this kind of thing too? Like I could have come out and said 'FETH YA, WE"RE GONNA WIN EVERY EVENT, EVERY UNIT IN THE BOOK IS TOP TIER COMPETITIVE, THIS BOOK IS LIKE IF METH AND COCAINE HAD A BABY WITH NUTELLA AND SMOOTH JAZZ!!!!!" and that would ACTUALLY be losing my mind but no one would say that. People respond with 'Well boy howdy I sure do hope so! Shucks!'
But say 'I don't think bloody rose is going to be as good as it was in the previous book' and people are suddenly like 'DROP THE KNIFE MAN! I KNOW THIS ISN'T YOU OKAY?! I KNOW YOU DON'T WANNA HURT NOBODY SO JUST CALM DOWN MAN! WE CAN TALK THIS OUT!'
After seeing the English page, the prefixes the Italian guy suspected were just flavour text seem to actually point at new weapon profiles.
Storm bolters are now "Artificer-crafted storm bolter" and all flamer weapons have "Ministorum" in the name, including the combi, hand, and gravy varieties. This rarely happens without a corresponding profile change.
There is absolutely a typo for the Paragons, unfortunately. Hopefully it doesn't show up in the Codex, but it'll be sorted before it matters anyway.
Having seen the CA points for Sister, the Paragon Warsuits has no typo's. Its 1 unit of 3 models for 240pts, just like some of the marine units (Outriders and Suppressors or example), now this might NOT be intended, but it doesn't look out of place, they have boxes with 2 Armigers, 3 Paragons will be easy to box.
I also notice that Morvenn Vahl is not a Lord of War.
The Outriders and Suppressor entries aren't consistent. One shows the full price of the unit, while the other separates it by model like that. I don't think anybody will realistically argue that the Paragon unit should be 720 points though so no worries.
That's a good point about Morvenn. Shouldn't affect including her in a supreme command detachment if you want. Wildly speculating that she has the supreme commander keyword.
Vilgeir wrote: Not sure that's the case, Amishprn86. It says...
Unit size - 3 models
Unit cost - 240 pts/model
The Outriders and Suppressor entries aren't consistent. One shows the full price of the unit, while the other separates it by model like that. I don't think anybody will realistically argue that the Paragon unit should be 720 points though so no worries.
That's a good point about Morvenn. Shouldn't affect including her in a supreme command detachment if you want. Wildly speculating that she has the supreme commander keyword.
Zero chance they're immune to D1 weapons. Vahl isn't, and she has a better suit than they do. It's 100% a typo, though whether it's a typo with the article or the codex itself, with GW's track record, who knows?
Vilgeir wrote: Not sure that's the case, Amishprn86. It says...
Unit size - 3 models
Unit cost - 240 pts/model
The Outriders and Suppressor entries aren't consistent. One shows the full price of the unit, while the other separates it by model like that. I don't think anybody will realistically argue that the Paragon unit should be 720 points though so no worries.
That's a good point about Morvenn. Shouldn't affect including her in a supreme command detachment if you want. Wildly speculating that she has the supreme commander keyword.
Unfortunately as written that IS what it says...And while one could hope people are reasonable there were actual tournaments that enforced that GSC players paid 40 pts for 1W chaff models becuase GW typo'ed 0 into the point cost...
Obviously there will be errata but as GSC debacle showed there IS need for even this obvious errata. Tournament organizers won't errata themselves even that obvious typoes.
Ditto for the -1 dam thing. If that IS actual text from codex and not just partial then that will need errata. If there's tournament before errata shows up you can bet somebody will try to pull that stunt and odds are good TO will just shrug and say okay.
But luckily even I don't expect GW to not errata those two (assuming -1 dam needs errata. Could be just warcom article do "blaa blaa" and skip part of text from the codex)
Based on today's article, we're most likely losing Blade of Admonition to Crusade only. I'm also a bit angry that instead of getting a generic saint for those who may not want to use Celestine in matched play we're getting Crusade-only rules for saints.
Taikishi wrote: Based on today's article, we're most likely losing Blade of Admonition to Crusade only. I'm also a bit angry that instead of getting a generic saint for those who may not want to use Celestine in matched play we're getting Crusade-only rules for saints.
I feel like with some of the crusade stuff in the codex's that have them its rules that could have easily been main rules but was sectioned off for narative players. Like Dark Eldar poisons is basically the same thing as DG plague weapon upgrades but its crusade only for Dark Eldar.
I skipped the article because i have 0 interest in crusade but its a shame iv wanted generic saints as an option for a long time for regular play.
Understandable. I had a small rant on B&C about it, especially since there are non-Ecchlessiarchy, non-Sisters saints. I would have been fine with something along the lines of "this is a model for a generic saint and the rules for it" combined with Crusade getting "here's how your character can become a saint" in the same vein as how Marines can become Dreads in Crusade.
Someone else suggested there could be an upgrade we haven't seen (I doubt it), but that isn't even close to what I was hoping for. I was personally hoping for something more in the realm of fluff and power of the Sanguinor or a Daemon Prince. Totally missed opportunity and I would gladly have given up either or both of our new special characters for it.
Which is another thing that miffs me: all our SCs are Order Agnostic (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) or Martyred Lady and the trend seems to be continuing. If you're going to create new characters, why not also create some for Valorous Heart, Bloody Rose, Argent Shroud, Sacred Rose, and Ebon Chalice so those players can also have a unique character or two to use that isn't Celestine/the Triumph/Stern/Vahl?
Not too many big changes, I tried to summarize below.
MARTYRED LADY - Conviction changed slightly - units below starting strength (instead of units that have lost models) add +1 to hit rolls. Stratagem is the same. Changes to the Shield Bearer warlord trait; instead of save +1, reduce damage by 1; miracle die for losing the warlord is automatically a 6, miracle die for Sacrifice or for losing the warlord is a 6.
VALOROUS HEART - Conviction steals the 5+ FNP for mortal wounds from Ebon Chalice; reduce AP of AP -1 or -2 attacks by 1 (losing the stack with Imagifier?); loses 6+ FNP. Blind Faith stratagem now ignores all modifiers to hit roll, BS or WS. Impervious to Pain warlord trait now lets the warlord heal when performing an act of faith, as well as keeping their 5+ FNP.
BLOODY ROSE - Conviction changed slightly, AP +1 on melee weapons only when charging, charged, heroically intervened. Tear Them Down stratagem now automatically wounds on a hit roll of 6, instead of giving +1 to wound. Blazing Ire warlord trait is unchanged.
EBON CHALICE - Loses the 5+ FNP for mortals, instead gaining the ability to select TWO Sacred Rites, instead of rolling randomly. Maintains their ability to discard a miracle die to consider another a 6. Big change to Cleansing Flame stratagem - instead of automatically getting max shots, now adds +4" to the range of flame weapons, flame wound roll of 4+ adds 1 mortal wound with a cap of 3 mortal wounds per phase. Terrible Knowledge warlord trait now gives a chance to refund CP on a 5+ instead of granting D3, first Miracle die you generate is still automatically a 6.
ARGENT SHROUD - When making a normal move or advancing, counts as Remain Stationary. Additionally, can re-roll 1 wound roll or 1 hit roll when selected to shoot or fight. Faith is Our Shield stratagem can now be used in any phase, and grants a 4+ FNP against mortals, instead of a 5+ only in the psychic phase. Selfless Heroism looks like it was changed to straight fighting first in the fight phase, regardless of whether the warlord was charged or heroically intervened.
SACRED ROSE - Gain new miracle die on 4+ instead of 5+ when using an Act of Faith, Overwatch ability removed. Emperor's Judgment stratagem now grants one unit a blanket additional hit on 6s, instead of only with bolt weapons. Substantial change to the Light of the Divine warlord trait - if the warlord performs an Act of Faith, 1 dice used is a 6, and a Core unit within 6" can shoot even if it fell back; used to be a automatically gaining a miracle die if using an Act of Faith.
Martyred Lady isn't the same. Before, the conviction explicitly allowed you to bring a unit back to full strength and retain the bonus to-hit. This is no money the case per the article.
Further, Bloody Rose now only gains the AP bonus to melee attacks the turn you charge, are charged, or perform a Heroic Intervention. Valorous Heart no longer gets a blanket 6+++.
Taikishi wrote: Martyred Lady isn't the same. Before, the conviction explicitly allowed you to bring a unit back to full strength and retain the bonus to-hit. This is no money the case per the article.
Further, Bloody Rose now only gains the AP bonus to melee attacks the turn you charge, are charged, or perform a Heroic Intervention. Valorous Heart no longer gets a blanket 6+++.
Thanks for the catch! I've updated my post. I'm at work and didn't have the Codex in front of me.
Taikishi wrote: Martyred Lady isn't the same. Before, the conviction explicitly allowed you to bring a unit back to full strength and retain the bonus to-hit. This is no money the case per the article.
Further, Bloody Rose now only gains the AP bonus to melee attacks the turn you charge, are charged, or perform a Heroic Intervention. Valorous Heart no longer gets a blanket 6+++.
Thanks for the catch! I've updated my post. I'm at work and didn't have the Codex in front of me.
Also the OOML stratagem changed from reroll 1s to hit to +1 to wound.
Yeah, it is also only against that unit that killed the character. But it is a very powerful 1CP to have a full army +1 to wound (in shooting and melee) against 1 unit. If say a LoW, or super unit killed your character you are set for the rest of the game.
Looks like BR is still the go-to for melee, even if it's been watered down slightly. Hand Flamer Seraphim are most likely cabbage now, also, although with that EC stratagem there could be some play there. VH has been nerfed into the dirt.
Those are my hot takes, but definitely do not take them as gospel. Just my opinions, and I'd love to be proven wrong.
Well retributors have allegedly gone down in points so the likelyhood is they have lost the move and shoot ability. This makes Agent shroud amazing (move out of a rhino, advance then shoot for a potential 39" threat range from behind a wall). The free re roll is also nice as you can choose either the hit or wound which is great.
I think this will be a staple for the shooting element for your army whilst your combat element will still be BR of course.
Personally I really like the 6's are auto wounds, the +1 to wound was very powerful but with the number of attacks you get from, say, a large unit of Zephrym, you statistically to high T targets still do plenty of wounds!
KillswitchUK wrote: Well retributors have allegedly gone down in points so the likelyhood is they have lost the move and shoot ability. This makes Agent shroud amazing (move out of a rhino, advance then shoot for a potential 39" threat range from behind a wall). The free re roll is also nice as you can choose either the hit or wound which is great.
I think this will be a staple for the shooting element for your army whilst your combat element will still be BR of course.
Personally I really like the 6's are auto wounds, the +1 to wound was very powerful but with the number of attacks you get from, say, a large unit of Zephrym, you statistically to high T targets still do plenty of wounds!
It's interesting that you bring up zephyrim because they actually hate the change. They have native reroll to wound, they don't get much in the way of benefit from auto-wounding. This is a very significant nerf for them.
Repentia, on the other hand, have built in reroll to HIT so against higher toughness targets this will be very strong for them.
Exactly, they have a re-roll to wound. Sure, it is a nerf but its still a good strat. I'm sure there might be more. Don't get me wrong, I think we'd all prefer +1 to wound but it's not a huge nerf, and still a great strat to use for them.
Im going to guess Repentia probably wont get much support this time around as they were too strong before?
ZergSmasher wrote: Looks like BR is still the go-to for melee, even if it's been watered down slightly. Hand Flamer Seraphim are most likely cabbage now, also, although with that EC stratagem there could be some play there. VH has been nerfed into the dirt.
Those are my hot takes, but definitely do not take them as gospel. Just my opinions, and I'd love to be proven wrong.
ZergSmasher wrote: Looks like BR is still the go-to for melee, even if it's been watered down slightly. Hand Flamer Seraphim are most likely cabbage now, also, although with that EC stratagem there could be some play there. VH has been nerfed into the dirt.
Those are my hot takes, but definitely do not take them as gospel. Just my opinions, and I'd love to be proven wrong.
VH are better in ways that matter.
I just wonder how tales will be affected
Pretty much this, going from ignores -1 to reduces -1 or -2 by 1 is a pretty significant buff, pretty much canceling out losing the 6+++. Whether it's better or worse honestly depends on the tales.
Ebon Chalice auto 6 shots for flamers got moved to a general strat AND affects adeptus ministorum units instead of just <Order> (i.e. penitent engines and mortifiers).
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Lammia wrote: The 6+++ is now a 5+++ vs mw which is better on the hits you want it on
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the WL trait looks fun now
In AoS the 5+++ against mortals would be way better than a 6+ FNP, but 40k just doesn't have very many mortal wounds bouncing around (regardless of what the internet thinks). It'll make us even better against psychic armies and will only improve as time goes on and mortal wounds become more common,but as it stands it's a moderate downgrade; which is fortunately counteracted by the improvement to the ignore rend ability.
I think you guys really need to not jump to conclusions so soon until you have seen the whole codex and also seen the army in action. I just watched a battle report online of the new Sisters vs the new Admech. It was a fight down to round 5 with both sides giving as good as they got. From that battle report, I didn't get the impression that the new Sisters were weak by any means. And in that battle report, the Sisters army wasn't even using the new models like those new gundams. You can also see the battle report online. Its by tabletop tactics and its on youtube.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I think you guys really need to not jump to conclusions so soon until you have seen the whole codex and also seen the army in action. I just watched a battle report online of the new Sisters vs the new Admech. It was a fight down to round 5 with both sides giving as good as they got. From that battle report, I didn't get the impression that the new Sisters were weak by any means. And in that battle report, the Sisters army wasn't even using the new models like those new gundams. You can also see the battle report online. Its by tabletop tactics and its on youtube.
I also saw that battle report and let me tell you, neither of those armies were examples of what those codexes are capable of. Those were fun and fluffy lists, played by people more interested in putting on a good show than winning (as they absolutely should, being youtubers) which makes for a really entertaining batrep and would make an awesome locals game, but isn't at all representative of how those armies play in a competitive environment.
Yeah, that ad mech list is nowhere near competitive. It seems difficult to come up with a list in the new sisters book that a competitive ad mech list doesn't utterly obliterate...but that's true for almost all factions, suggesting the problem is more with the new ad mech book than the sisters book.
That said, a number of the big nerfs to the face of basically everything that used to be good in the 8th edition book seems excessive and like somebody with a chip on their shoulder designed this book - or just a bunch of marketing execs who want existing sisters players to have to rebuy their armies almost wholesale.
She's a fundamentally stupid unit IMO. "Just generically good at literally everything with no weaknesses of any kind" is a terrible way to design units. They'll always either be auto-takes if they're pointed to move or never-takes if they aren't, and they don't make for interesting gameplay.
I mean look at her: halves damage, therefore not susceptible to high damage weapons. 4+++ vs mortals, so not susceptible to mortals. 2+/4++, so not susceptible to plink damage either. Character protected. Has two missile launchers + a heavy bolter on steroids, so top-tier shooting for a character, and can shoot in melee as well. Good if not great melee, with both horde-clearing and elite-clearing profiles, so not vulnerable to tarpitting. Rerolls hits and wounds, and can give it to another unit too. It's literally like they just tried to pile every single thing onto a unit so it would be effective in every possible circumstance.
I can see everyone getting sick to the back teeth of her very soon. Just such boring design.
yukishiro1 wrote: She's a fundamentally stupid unit IMO. "Just generically good at literally everything with no weaknesses of any kind" is a terrible way to design units. They'll always either be auto-takes if they're pointed to move or never-takes if they aren't, and they don't make for interesting gameplay.
I mean look at her: halves damage, therefore not susceptible to high damage weapons. 4+++ vs mortals, so not susceptible to mortals. 2+/4++, so not susceptible to plink damage either. Character protected. Has two missile launchers + a heavy bolter on steroids, so top-tier shooting for a character, and can shoot in melee as well. Good if not great melee, with both horde-clearing and elite-clearing profiles, so not vulnerable to tarpitting. Rerolls hits and wounds, and can give it to another unit too. It's literally like they just tried to pile every single thing onto a unit so it would be effective in every possible circumstance.
I can see everyone getting sick to the back teeth of her very soon. Just such boring design.
Nightbringer eats her as a light snack. She doesn't even kill it in return.
So her weakness is letting her get into melee with the single model in the game that ignores some of the protections they built into her?
Talk about the exception proving the rule.
Also, you're not even right. NB doesn't bypass her half damage, meaning that the chance of him killing her in one round of melee is actually under 50%, even before you auto-pass one save using a miracle die.
You mean it may take a fight phase *and* a turn of C'tan powers?
My point was there are units that are effective against her despite her defenses. I actually think hot-shot eqv. may be the best solution, but there are plenty of ways to deal with a model like her
Also, GW has outdone themselves with their mandatory typo that apparently has to be in every codex because proofreading is for chumps: RAW, paragon warsuits are immune to D1 weapons, but also cost 240 points per model. I guess it's actually a relief they screwed them up so significantly, because this way no "that guy" gets to argue the immune to 1D thing is real, unless they also want to pay 240 points per model for the privilege.
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Lammia wrote: You mean it may take a fight phase *and* a turn of C'tan powers?
My point was there are units that are effective against her despite her defenses. I actually think hot-shot eqv. may be the best solution, but there are plenty of ways to deal with a model like her
She's character protected. If a player is stupid enough to let her get shot with a large volume of low-damage ranged weapons, they're surely going to lose that game anyway.
But the point isn't that she's unkillable or can't be dealt with. The point is that she's badly designed because she's just generically good at everything with no notable weak point. There is a good reason you don't see other models like that: they don't result in interesting games. The more you make a unit generically good at everything with no weaknesses, the more the game just comes down to dice rolls and point values rather than strategy.
yukishiro1 wrote: Also, GW has outdone themselves with their mandatory typo that apparently has to be in every codex because proofreading is for chumps: RAW, paragon warsuits are immune to D1 weapons, but also cost 240 points per model. I guess it's actually a relief they screwed them up so significantly, because this way no "that guy" gets to argue the immune to 1D thing is real, unless they also want to pay 240 points per model for the privilege.
Is that 'rant' based on the blurp in the community article or a photo of the actual codex?
Because it wouldn't be the first time a community article doesn't include the full rule text.
yukishiro1 wrote: Also, GW has outdone themselves with their mandatory typo that apparently has to be in every codex because proofreading is for chumps: RAW, paragon warsuits are immune to D1 weapons, but also cost 240 points per model. I guess it's actually a relief they screwed them up so significantly, because this way no "that guy" gets to argue the immune to 1D thing is real, unless they also want to pay 240 points per model for the privilege.
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Lammia wrote: You mean it may take a fight phase *and* a turn of C'tan powers?
My point was there are units that are effective against her despite her defenses. I actually think hot-shot eqv. may be the best solution, but there are plenty of ways to deal with a model like her
She's character protected. If a player is stupid enough to let her get shot with a large volume of low-damage ranged weapons, they're surely going to lose that game anyway.
But the point isn't that she's unkillable or can't be dealt with. The point is that she's badly designed because she's just generically good at everything with no notable weak point. There is a good reason you don't see other models like that: they don't result in interesting games. The more you make a unit generically good at everything with no weaknesses, the more the game just comes down to dice rolls and point values rather than strategy.
The weak point of Vahl is her price. She's 265 points. At that price you could get like 8 SoB characters or 2 full units of repentia (who have actually skated by with barely any issues).
Vahl is capable of doing just about anything and priced assuming she'll be doing everything. She has to perform as a frontline combatant, backline fire support, AND force multiplier to be worth her cost. If she fails at any one of those things you'll have been better off bringing other characters. Can't get any good melee targets? Wasted 140 points not getting a canoness a palantine and a multimelta. Not in a position to really get much out of her buffs? Celestine ends up being a better brawler for 65pts cheaper.
She's very good but she's alway going to have to carry if because of the amount you've invested in bringing her.
She's like Patrick Mahomes, yeah he's an amazing quarterback, but you're paying him half a billion dollars. That's a lot of cap to eat up that can't go to your offensive line or recievers.
...hence why I said when a model is generically good at everything with no weaknesses, the game just comes down to dice rolls and point values. Either she's priced competitively and she appears in every single list because it's a no-brainer, or she's priced uncompetitively and you'll never see her in competitive lists ever. There's very little room for interesting list building or interesting gameplay with a model that is just generically good at everything and has no real weaknesses, and therefore conversely no real strengths either if properly pointed.
Think how boring the game would be if everyone had characters like Vahl that do everything in one package. It's just a poor way to design a game. There's a reason they've basically never done it before. Even Guilliman doesn't come close to just being all-around good at everything the way Vahl is.
Also, repentia did get wrecked pretty hard by losing advance and charge. The superior can only give them it in the command phase, which means they have to be on the table unprotected for a turn before you can do it.
...hence why I said when a model is generically good at everything with no weaknesses, the game just comes down to dice rolls and point values. Either she's priced competitively and she appears in every single list because it's a no-brainer, or she's priced uncompetitively and you'll never see her in competitive lists ever. There's very little room for interesting list building or interesting gameplay with a model that is just generically good at everything and has no real weaknesses, and therefore conversely no real strengths either if properly pointed.
Think how boring the game would be if everyone had characters like Vahl that do everything in one package. It's just a poor way to design a game. There's a reason they've basically never done it before. Even Guilliman doesn't come close to just being all-around good at everything the way Vahl is.
It's a product of the rest of the codex being designed by someone who hates playing against sisters.
They got to the end of this insane litany of nerfs to Every. Single. Unit. And looked up and saw the book was doggak and were like 'oops' how do we fix this? And so they had to add a bunch of stuff to Vahl to make up for removing 90% of the soul of the book.
Also, repentia did get wrecked pretty hard by losing advance and charge. The superior can only give them it in the command phase, which means they have to be on the table unprotected for a turn before you can do it.
Or you just deliver them via strategic reserves, with an 18 inch threat range from either neutral edge?
...which you could do before just as well as you can now, and which is vastly worse than the threat range they had before out of a rhino. Hence making my point that they got wrecked pretty hard. The most effective way to use them doesn't work any more. It's a big nerf.
Does that make them terrible? No, they were just that good before that they're still not bad even after the nerf. But Erjak said they escaped pretty lightly, and I just don't think that is true.
It obviously is now that you can't advance and charge them out of a rhino. Before, the rhino was so much better it wasn't even funny. It is a truly strange take on the game to think that a max 18" threat range from a neutral table edge is better than a max 27" threat range from a mobile transport.
You don't have to take my word for it; look up some competitive sisters lists, they all use a rhino to deliver repentia as their basic strategy. SR occasionally used to make sense vs some very particular matchups, but the rhion was very much the default, and for very good reason.
No, it wasn't, as evidenced by the fact that pretty much every competitive list took rhinos to deliver their repentia, rather than relying on SR.
But it's obviously not worth arguing with you further about. If you think you know better than the people who were actually winning tournaments with the faction, nothing I say is going to change your mind.
yukishiro1 wrote: No, it wasn't, as evidenced by the fact that pretty much every competitive list took rhinos to deliver their repentia, rather than relying on SR.
But it's obviously not worth arguing with you further about. If you think you know better than the people who were actually winning tournaments with the faction, nothing I say is going to change your mind.
Exactly, they had incredible threat range with 3" +6" +D6" (Miracle Diceable) +2D6" (Miracle Diceable) whilst now they just have a 3"+6"+2D6" with FAR FEWER miracle dice available (2/3 per Battle Round generally whereas they had 6+ before with all the tricks)
Can't use MD on Deny and don't gain MD for denying or for rolling nat-1 on morale.
The Sacred Rite modifies SoF so that you auto-deny on a natural 5+, Pure of Will allows your warlord to deny twice a turn with +3 to the roll, and one of the custom conviction traits is +3 to your roll to deny with Shield of Faith.
What a trash book. Every time I look at it gets worse. Every time you think you've scraped the bottom of the barrel you realize you're not even halfway through the muck yet.
Like, you pretty much CAN'T run a single detachment. You can't make a shooty list because our shooting was never good and the hit to retributors and exorcists make it worse. so you need melee. For your melee units to be any use at all they have to be bloody rose. But you can't be pure bloody rose either because Retributors are your only shooting option and there's no way you can protect them well enough to leave them on the table. They HAVE to come in from a table edge or go into a rhino. If you do that with not-argent shroud retributors you're hitting on 4s, which is far too pillowfisted for 32 points per model.
You can't ally in anything to fix our doggak shooting because then we lose miracle dice for charges and can't do melee either.
Battle Sanctum has been made even worse somehow. you have to have a unit performing a prayer action (end of movement phase to end of your turn, to get the +1 miracle dice. going to have to have the dogmata? babysit the unit if you want it to shoot, thereby making the entire process extremely expensive...
though on a positive note, our Grail Reliquae, i mean the Triumph of Saint Katherine gets character protection now, though the relics are changed, miracle dice 1/round instead of 1/turn.
also celestians can bodyguard alot more things now, and get +1 to hit when nearby instead of re-roll
definately seems like were getting massively less miracle dice overall for the army even if you go out of your way to take the things that generate miracle dice.
Imagifiers cant double up on prayers until 1 of each has been taken (like old wych drugs) -1ap prayer is gone, +1 strength is still there, re-roll advance/charge, new prayer is -1 to wound rolls from s3 (or less) weapons.
Most of the custom order traits are just weaker versions of traits of the main order traits, though there are a few decent ones.
Archo flagellents are now 2 hit rolls per attack instead of d3, and 1 can be upgraded to +1 strength and +1 attack
Hospitaler can no longer bring models back from the dead, has to use a 1cp strat to do it (brings back d3 infantry models though) its base heal is d3. there really isnt any targets for it to heal outside of infantry characters
Retributer heavy weapons ignore terrain, but no longer have ignore the move/fire penalty
Celestine's healing tears is now an action she has to perform if you want to bring a dead geminae back (or fully heal a wounded model including celestine!) (from end of command phase to end of shooting phase)
celestine also has -1d and 6" heroic intervention
there are so many weird changes in the codex im not sure what to think of it so far.
I'm deeply disappointed in this book. Everything that was first tier got nerfed (repentia made it out ok, rets got slammed); that's tolerable I guess.
But then they drilled down to second tier and pretty pointlessly smashed all of it. Zeph lost reroll wounds, seraph lost burning descent with metals, mortifiers lost 1/3rd of their melee output, Triumph got hit in multiple ways, Celestine isn't sufficiently smashy to be worth her points, priests feel cooler but are probably worse, Exos got nerfed. Immos got nerfed. Even the bloody rose smash cannoness doesn't really work because beneficence got neutered.
Like, almost the entire codex got nerfed and what got better? I guess some orders which no one used, but none of them were brought up to old bloody rose level. Dominions are better...okay? Were there lots of die hard dominion fans clamoring for improvements?
Nothing really got cooler in exchange. The priest shift is actually kinda fun but is also way worse. But like...would it have killed them to make one of the upgrades give a cannoness wings so everyone's desperate desire for a jump pack cannoness could appear?
warmaster21 wrote: Battle Sanctum has been made even worse somehow. you have to have a unit performing a prayer action (end of movement phase to end of your turn, to get the +1 miracle dice. going to have to have the dogmata? babysit the unit if you want it to shoot, thereby making the entire process extremely expensive...
though on a positive note, our Grail Reliquae, i mean the Triumph of Saint Katherine gets character protection now, though the relics are changed, miracle dice 1/round instead of 1/turn.
also celestians can bodyguard alot more things now, and get +1 to hit when nearby instead of re-roll
definately seems like were getting massively less miracle dice overall for the army even if you go out of your way to take the things that generate miracle dice.
Imagifiers cant double up on prayers until 1 of each has been taken (like old wych drugs) -1ap prayer is gone, +1 strength is still there, re-roll advance/charge, new prayer is -1 to wound rolls from s3 (or less) weapons.
Most of the custom order traits are just weaker versions of traits of the main order traits, though there are a few decent ones.
Archo flagellents are now 2 hit rolls per attack instead of d3, and 1 can be upgraded to +1 strength and +1 attack
Hospitaler can no longer bring models back from the dead, has to use a 1cp strat to do it (brings back d3 infantry models though) its base heal is d3. there really isnt any targets for it to heal outside of infantry characters
Retributer heavy weapons ignore terrain, but no longer have ignore the move/fire penalty
Celestine's healing tears is now an action she has to perform if you want to bring a dead geminae back (or fully heal a wounded model including celestine!) (from end of command phase to end of shooting phase)
celestine also has -1d and 6" heroic intervention
there are so many weird changes in the codex im not sure what to think of it so far.
Spoilers: It's not very good. Let's cover the negatives of what you've posted.
Sanctum is even worse than that. It has obscuring now which makes it a goddam liability but doesn't have any way to help make sure you actually get to deploy it. It also went up TWENTY FIVE points for no reason.
The Triumph didn't just get its miracle dice generation halved, it also lost it's simulacrum ability and its dialogus ability. They took a buffing unit, tried to make it a melee unit by giving it character protection, without ever noticing that the Triumph is fething terrible in melee. It also went up 30 points for no fething reason.
All the weird changes to Celestians equal out to them being worse. They don't shoot as well, they don't fight as well. And they were never good at those things anyway.
Only maybe 2 combinations of the custom traits are as good as AS, OOML, VH, or BR and those lock you out of Order relics and stratagems. And Junith for whatever that's worth.
The changes to Arcos and Hospitallers are fine. Woo.
Retributors also lost Storm of fire and their access to strong defensive buffs. Which means that our best 'long range' shooting unit can't start the game on the table, can't start the game off the table, can't come out of transport, and can't shoot over the neutral zone in most deployments. They also got limited to 1 cherub per turn. Which means you only get one cherub, they're still gonna die the moment they're in LoS. Also, getting ignores cover is fething riot because the majority of their shots has always been on vehicles.
Celestine lost +1 invul, lost the ability to give morties and penitent engines a 6++ AND her warlord trait got nerfed into the dirt. Her melee is much better, her survivability is much better, but that's really all she is. They finally made her as cool as she was in the index at the cost of taking away her frankly irreplaceable utility.
Not much more to say that hasn't already been said by the two posters above. I am really disapointed so far by the codex.
I don't understand why they have been so heavy handed on the retributors? Assuming they wanted to hit the retributor hard to make the tanks more appealing, why they had to make our battle tanks garbage tier (while they weren't exactly top1+++ tier). What the hell did they do to the Triumph, what is their idea of this unit, was-it under priced ? Last, what is the point to play baby melta seraphim without the range bump of deadly descent?
Add to these all the other little tweak : worse sacred rites (martyr being gakky now), worse miracle dices, worse priest (roll a 4+ to get your +1 attack aura), worse stratagems. Our secondaries are meh. Hell, correct me if I wrong but I can't even put an inquisition detachment in my list without losing my miracle dices? Isn't it a classif for SoB to collaborate with inquisition?
It's even more baffling regarding the power level of other 9th edition codex that went out since the begining of the year.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I think you guys really need to not jump to conclusions so soon until you have seen the whole codex and also seen the army in action. I just watched a battle report online of the new Sisters vs the new Admech. It was a fight down to round 5 with both sides giving as good as they got. From that battle report, I didn't get the impression that the new Sisters were weak by any means. And in that battle report, the Sisters army wasn't even using the new models like those new gundams. You can also see the battle report online. Its by tabletop tactics and its on youtube.
I also saw that battle report and let me tell you, neither of those armies were examples of what those codexes are capable of. Those were fun and fluffy lists, played by people more interested in putting on a good show than winning (as they absolutely should, being youtubers) which makes for a really entertaining batrep and would make an awesome locals game, but isn't at all representative of how those armies play in a competitive environment.
I understand they aren't tourney players, outside of Lawrence. But that admech list didn't look terrible. It had a 20 man blob of vanguard, it had 3 units of 2 ironstriders. The breachers were great. Tanky, can fight, can shoot. And playing it as Mars was great, just about everything was rerolling almost all the time, which was amazing. What was so bad about that list? genuinely confused. And if the admech list was scary, while a fluffy sisters list gave it a good tight fight, then a tuned competitive sisters list should be even stronger.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some of the stuff I saw in that video was pretty amazing. Like the ability to make the first miracle dice you roll turn automatically into a 6. That's like ... wow. The first d6 damage you get through is now an automatic 6.
Max shots on flamers, extend their range by 4 inch and something else (I can't remember). Like Immolators are so scary with that.
And Celestine is a boss too. When she rolls a 6 to wound, thats an automatic 2 mortal wounds. And she comes back to life with Full hp. Plus she reduces incoming damage by 1 like a dreadnaught. Like wow...she is tanky!
An exorcist tank was firing from obscuring terrain like it was a Manticore tank due to a strategem.
There was other stuff and they obviously couldn't show off everything, but what I saw looked pretty good.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I think you guys really need to not jump to conclusions so soon until you have seen the whole codex and also seen the army in action. I just watched a battle report online of the new Sisters vs the new Admech. It was a fight down to round 5 with both sides giving as good as they got. From that battle report, I didn't get the impression that the new Sisters were weak by any means. And in that battle report, the Sisters army wasn't even using the new models like those new gundams. You can also see the battle report online. Its by tabletop tactics and its on youtube.
I also saw that battle report and let me tell you, neither of those armies were examples of what those codexes are capable of. Those were fun and fluffy lists, played by people more interested in putting on a good show than winning (as they absolutely should, being youtubers) which makes for a really entertaining batrep and would make an awesome locals game, but isn't at all representative of how those armies play in a competitive environment.
I understand they aren't tourney players, outside of Lawrence. But that admech list didn't look terrible. It had a 20 man blob of vanguard, it had 3 units of 2 ironstriders. The breachers were great. Tanky, can fight, can shoot. And playing it as Mars was great, just about everything was rerolling almost all the time, which was amazing. What was so bad about that list? genuinely confused. And if the admech list was scary, while a fluffy sisters list gave it a good tight fight, then a tuned competitive sisters list should be even stronger.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some of the stuff I saw in that video was pretty amazing. Like the ability to make the first miracle dice you roll turn automatically into a 6. That's like ... wow. The first d6 damage you get through is now an automatic 6.
Max shots on flamers, extend their range by 4 inch and something else (I can't remember). Like Immolators are so scary with that.
And Celestine is a boss too. When she rolls a 6 to wound, thats an automatic 2 mortal wounds. And she comes back to life with Full hp. Plus she reduces incoming damage by 1 like a dreadnaught. Like wow...she is tanky!
An exorcist tank was firing from obscuring terrain like it was a Manticore tank due to a strategem.
There was other stuff and they obviously couldn't show off everything, but what I saw looked pretty good.
Just as a note, Celestine does 2 MW for every 6 to hit according to Goons, not 6 to wound, which is a bit better. She also gets 6" heroic intervention and full heals herself every turn as an action (that starts in the command phase and ends in the shooting phase or something like that).
ierp wrote: Not much more to say that hasn't already been said by the two posters above. I am really disapointed so far by the codex.
I don't understand why they have been so heavy handed on the retributors? Assuming they wanted to hit the retributor hard to make the tanks more appealing, why they had to make our battle tanks garbage tier (while they weren't exactly top1+++ tier). What the hell did they do to the Triumph, what is their idea of this unit, was-it under priced ? Last, what is the point to play baby melta seraphim without the range bump of deadly descent?
Add to these all the other little tweak : worse sacred rites (martyr being gakky now), worse miracle dices, worse priest (roll a 4+ to get your +1 attack aura), worse stratagems. Our secondaries are meh. Hell, correct me if I wrong but I can't even put an inquisition detachment in my list without losing my miracle dices? Isn't it a classif for SoB to collaborate with inquisition?
It's even more baffling regarding the power level of other 9th edition codex that went out since the begining of the year.
IT'S 4+?!? WHY THE HELL IS IT A 4+? Had a heart attack, it's a 3+ Still bad, not THAT bad.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I think you guys really need to not jump to conclusions so soon until you have seen the whole codex and also seen the army in action. I just watched a battle report online of the new Sisters vs the new Admech. It was a fight down to round 5 with both sides giving as good as they got. From that battle report, I didn't get the impression that the new Sisters were weak by any means. And in that battle report, the Sisters army wasn't even using the new models like those new gundams. You can also see the battle report online. Its by tabletop tactics and its on youtube.
I also saw that battle report and let me tell you, neither of those armies were examples of what those codexes are capable of. Those were fun and fluffy lists, played by people more interested in putting on a good show than winning (as they absolutely should, being youtubers) which makes for a really entertaining batrep and would make an awesome locals game, but isn't at all representative of how those armies play in a competitive environment.
I understand they aren't tourney players, outside of Lawrence. But that admech list didn't look terrible. It had a 20 man blob of vanguard, it had 3 units of 2 ironstriders. The breachers were great. Tanky, can fight, can shoot. And playing it as Mars was great, just about everything was rerolling almost all the time, which was amazing. What was so bad about that list? genuinely confused. And if the admech list was scary, while a fluffy sisters list gave it a good tight fight, then a tuned competitive sisters list should be even stronger.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some of the stuff I saw in that video was pretty amazing. Like the ability to make the first miracle dice you roll turn automatically into a 6. That's like ... wow. The first d6 damage you get through is now an automatic 6.
Max shots on flamers, extend their range by 4 inch and something else (I can't remember). Like Immolators are so scary with that.
And Celestine is a boss too. When she rolls a 6 to wound, thats an automatic 2 mortal wounds. And she comes back to life with Full hp. Plus she reduces incoming damage by 1 like a dreadnaught. Like wow...she is tanky!
An exorcist tank was firing from obscuring terrain like it was a Manticore tank due to a strategem.
There was other stuff and they obviously couldn't show off everything, but what I saw looked pretty good.
Just as a note, Celestine does 2 MW for every 6 to hit according to Goons, not 6 to wound, which is a bit better. She also gets 6" heroic intervention and full heals herself every turn as an action (that starts in the command phase and ends in the shooting phase or something like that).
There are some armies that literally cannot handle Celestine. Especially if she can full heal every time she gets low on hp. Some armies will literally find her unkillable. I mean, you could use high damage anti tank to shoot her, but she still gets a 4++. Once she is in the thick of combat though, a lot of melee stuff are damage 2, or d3 damage. And those weapons will mostly end up doing 1 damage to her even if they get through her saves. And then if she runs low, she can heal up to full and still charge and fight after she does that. And if its a hit of 6 do 2 MW, then she is an absolute beast in combat too.
In that video, she singlehandedly took out a whole squad of 5 dragoons, which would have smashed through that flank unopposed if not for her. 5 Dragoons are absolute monsters in combat now, they have strategem to give themselves 5s to add two additional autohits. Its a ton of Str 8 hits that can kill tanks in one round. But Celestine killed the whole unit (not in one turn of course, but she did most of the damage over a few rounds of combat).
Relic wise mantle of ophelia reduing the damage characteristics of attacks assigned to the bearer to 1 is hilarious but its weird like half the relics are super defensive relics that we dont really need and like... 2 offensive relics (for the generic relics)
Its a real shame you cant stick wrath of the emperor on a seraphim superior, the only weapon id actual consider sticking on a sergeant, but no, its not on the list of relics we can give them.
Eldenfirefly wrote: I think you guys really need to not jump to conclusions so soon until you have seen the whole codex and also seen the army in action. I just watched a battle report online of the new Sisters vs the new Admech. It was a fight down to round 5 with both sides giving as good as they got. From that battle report, I didn't get the impression that the new Sisters were weak by any means. And in that battle report, the Sisters army wasn't even using the new models like those new gundams. You can also see the battle report online. Its by tabletop tactics and its on youtube.
I also saw that battle report and let me tell you, neither of those armies were examples of what those codexes are capable of. Those were fun and fluffy lists, played by people more interested in putting on a good show than winning (as they absolutely should, being youtubers) which makes for a really entertaining batrep and would make an awesome locals game, but isn't at all representative of how those armies play in a competitive environment.
I understand they aren't tourney players, outside of Lawrence. But that admech list didn't look terrible. It had a 20 man blob of vanguard, it had 3 units of 2 ironstriders. The breachers were great. Tanky, can fight, can shoot. And playing it as Mars was great, just about everything was rerolling almost all the time, which was amazing. What was so bad about that list? genuinely confused. And if the admech list was scary, while a fluffy sisters list gave it a good tight fight, then a tuned competitive sisters list should be even stronger.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Some of the stuff I saw in that video was pretty amazing. Like the ability to make the first miracle dice you roll turn automatically into a 6. That's like ... wow. The first d6 damage you get through is now an automatic 6.
Max shots on flamers, extend their range by 4 inch and something else (I can't remember). Like Immolators are so scary with that.
And Celestine is a boss too. When she rolls a 6 to wound, thats an automatic 2 mortal wounds. And she comes back to life with Full hp. Plus she reduces incoming damage by 1 like a dreadnaught. Like wow...she is tanky!
An exorcist tank was firing from obscuring terrain like it was a Manticore tank due to a strategem.
There was other stuff and they obviously couldn't show off everything, but what I saw looked pretty good.
We've always had that first MD of the game be a 6 option. It's now got a bit funkier with other things when you take it.
Max shots on any order's flamers is the only bright light in this book.
St C is a mixed bag of npe now, lets see how good that is
Exo traded down to a basilisk statline at 1.5 times the cost and eats 1cp just to attack.
I just saw another battle report on tabletop titans where the sisters won against Drukhari. I mean, yes the Drukhari took a fluffy foreworld unit that cost 300 points, but the other 1700 points was the usual raiders, wyches deadly stuff. And its not like that 300 point unit just sat there and be a paper weight. But the sisters still won, and again, without any of the new fancy stuff like the vundams.
It seems like they aren't as lethal as Drukhari or Admech. Because Drukhari can aim to table you by turn 3 because they are so deadly once their turn 2 charges hit in. And Admech shooting is same, super deadly. But despite that, the sisters still seem to hold up fine against both admech and Drukhari, and these two are widely seen as top tier within 9th ed codexes. Its 9th edition. You just need to get more VP than the other side to win. You don't need to table your opponent in order to win.
Bridger (the guy playing drukhari) had never played the army before and is very bad with armies like that. He played horrifically and even admits that. The other guy is an experienced SoB player.
Goonhammer's review seems pretty fair. Some nerfs they really weren't happy with, bafflement at the damage done to the Retributors and Seraphim, frustration over Vahl (for being too good points wise) and at the new tanks (for being really underwhelming).
But their overall impression is that it's a solid tier 2/low tier 1 codex with much better internal balance and no meta-defining units, probably occupying the same rough place in the meta they did before. It's tough to see after two broken factions, one almost unplayably complex and the other in need of immediate nerfs - overall, though, it's probably a good thing. I'd much rather see codexes hovering around the SM benchmark instead of warping the meta with every release, and a good internal balance makes it easy to adjust meta viability through points tweaks and FAQs.
It's clear GW "likes" the Sisters of Battle right now; I'd be surprised if they weren't a viable tournament army once the dust settles.
Lammia wrote: Idk what Goonhammer liked other than Vahl though...
They felt that Sacresants were quite good too. I actually am kinda amazed at how high the bar has gone up. Sacresants are 14 points for a model that is a 2+/4++ save by default. As a CSM player, I pay 14 points for a basic CSM marine that has a 3+ save and no invul. The only thing the CSM marine is better at is 1 point of toughness ? 14 points for a model that has that kind of save seem pretty wild to me... Feel free to tell me different of course. But in practise, you can only get that kind of protection by going the terminators route, and terminators are far more expensive per model than Sacresants. Heck, my chaos terminators are still only have 2+/5++ while being more expensive per model and the only way to get that to a 2+/4++ is if I bring a 90 point sorceror to cast a psychic power that can fail or be dispelled. And both has to be mark of Tzeenth for that to work too.
Putting Vahl with a big block of these and just marching both up the center sounds good. If they want to shoot dark lances at a 4++ model that only costs 14 points base, that's fine. And whatever the Sacresants can't kill in close combat, I am pretty sure Vahl can handle with ease.
I'm a little salty that my literally just-painted Inferno Pistol Seraphim are now shelf fodder. Literally just finished that unit prior to reading the Goonhammer review. Honestly Seraphim of all varieties are probably looking a little sad right now. Dominions are likely the new Fast Attack staple what with being able to take 4 meltas and a combi-flamer and use Holy Trinity, or take 4 of the new-and-improved Storm Bolters and use Blessed Bolts, not to mention the fact that they can scoot up a Rhino that also has Sacresants in it.
Sisters, on the whole, are going to be just fine, I think. Maybe kind of sad that Morvenn Vahl is pretty much mandatory in competitive lists; there's absolutely no reason not to take her. At least her model is kick-ass.
Overall, I agree with what Goonhammer had to say; there is good internal balance among the subfactions which will lead to a great variety of competitive lists. It's not like before where everyone was running Bloody Rose or Valorous Heart or some combination of the two. The custom orders might be pretty sweet as well; I look forward to trying some of those out and/or seeing what the top players come up with out of there. I'm not as good at spotting the big wombo-combos as some people seem to be, but I'm sure they'll be found pretty quick.
To be fair, CSM are one of the very worst units in the game at this point, meme-worthy bad. They should be closer to 11 points, not 14 - and frankly would still be pretty bad even then - but for whatever reason GW just doesn't care. It's honestly pretty amazing how badly they've treated chaos in 9th edition aside from DG.
Here's my initial build for sisters, I was debating between bloody rose and martyred lady, but I just dont like the melee aspect of sisters (delivery mechanism is too tricky, and models are base S3 and T3).
My plan is to hold backfield objectives with exorcist and go for flanking objectives with dominions in immolator. The rest of the army gathers in group for buffs and moves towards midfield. Morvenn gives full reroll to retributors, and dogmata prays for better inv save for them aswell. I'm thinking for secondaries; engage on all fronts, investigate sites and leap of faith.
Spreelock wrote: Here's my initial build for sisters, I was debating between bloody rose and martyred lady, but I just dont like the melee aspect of sisters (delivery mechanism is too tricky, and models are base S3 and T3).
My plan is to hold backfield objectives with exorcist and go for flanking objectives with dominions in immolator. The rest of the army gathers in group for buffs and moves towards midfield. Morvenn gives full reroll to retributors, and dogmata prays for better inv save for them aswell. I'm thinking for secondaries; engage on all fronts, investigate sites and leap of faith.
Source for points are from Auspex Tactics.
The exorcists are going to pop like balloons unless there's obscuring to hide behind and you don't have a whole lot of killing power here. You'd probably be better off as Valorous Heart just for the extra longevity.
(also exorcists are really, aggressively terrible and barely worth half their points but that's neither here nor there.)
Spreelock wrote: Here's my initial build for sisters, I was debating between bloody rose and martyred lady, but I just dont like the melee aspect of sisters (delivery mechanism is too tricky, and models are base S3 and T3).
My plan is to hold backfield objectives with exorcist and go for flanking objectives with dominions in immolator. The rest of the army gathers in group for buffs and moves towards midfield. Morvenn gives full reroll to retributors, and dogmata prays for better inv save for them aswell. I'm thinking for secondaries; engage on all fronts, investigate sites and leap of faith.
Source for points are from Auspex Tactics.
I'd see what you can replace Celestine with. She doesn't buff much anymore, and you've already got a lot of points in HQ with Morvenn.
I'm very interested in trying a shooty army with Argent Shroud, myself. Love the idea of slapping heavy weapons throughout my army and sprinting everywhere.
I really want to try out a canoness with a blessed blade and rapturous blows in bloody rose. Stick full hit/wound rerolls on that either way you can, put a war hymn on as well.
6 attacks, s6, ap-4, Dd3+1. Sounds like fun.
Trigger the miraculous ability and fish for 6s in the hit as well for additional mortals.
Spreelock wrote: Here's my initial build for sisters, I was debating between bloody rose and martyred lady, but I just dont like the melee aspect of sisters (delivery mechanism is too tricky, and models are base S3 and T3).
My plan is to hold backfield objectives with exorcist and go for flanking objectives with dominions in immolator. The rest of the army gathers in group for buffs and moves towards midfield. Morvenn gives full reroll to retributors, and dogmata prays for better inv save for them aswell. I'm thinking for secondaries; engage on all fronts, investigate sites and leap of faith.
Source for points are from Auspex Tactics.
I'd see what you can replace Celestine with. She doesn't buff much anymore, and you've already got a lot of points in HQ with Morvenn.
I'm very interested in trying a shooty army with Argent Shroud, myself. Love the idea of slapping heavy weapons throughout my army and sprinting everywhere.
You can get 20 MM in a 2000pt brigade by sticking one in troop squads.
St C is a melee beatstick. She has an important role in that list
I'm very interested in trying a shooty army with Argent Shroud, myself. Love the idea of slapping heavy weapons throughout my army and sprinting everywhere.
I'm right with you there. I think my first point of action will be depositing my multi-meltas amongst the BSS rather than focus them in the retributors.
Yeah, exorcist are not that great, but since the most of the GT missions have 1-2 objectives backfield, it's the only decent option for holding them. And it can fire indirect now. The celestine acts as a counter melee unit, and fills the slot required for battalion. The other options are cheaper, but the list does not need any overlapping auras, because morvenn already has them.
St C is a melee beatstick. She has an important role in that list
Am I reading it right that healing tears heals all of her own wounds and brings back a geminae!? There are going to be armies that simply cannot get rid of her Has to take 8+ wounds in a turn minimum to kill her, first time around it's 10. Auto-take IMO.
Spreelock wrote: Yeah, exorcist are not that great, but since the most of the GT missions have 1-2 objectives backfield, it's the only decent option for holding them. And it can fire indirect now. The celestine acts as a counter melee unit, and fills the slot required for battalion. The other options are cheaper, but the list does not need any overlapping auras, because morvenn already has them.
You're honestly probably going to be better off dropping both exorcists for 2 units of 2 crusaders. They can hold objectives, they can do actions, they're about as survivable as the exorcist is (I wish I was joking), and it saves you over 300pts you could put into something that can kill stuff.
At the very least you're going to want to drop one exorcists because you can't give both ignores LoS.
St C is a melee beatstick. She has an important role in that list
Am I reading it right that healing tears heals all of her own wounds and brings back a geminae!? There are going to be armies that simply cannot get rid of her Has to take 8+ wounds in a turn minimum to kill her, first time around it's 10. Auto-take IMO.
11, unless the attacks are D1 then she's unhurt by them RAW. She has a -1 damage taken passive now (currently no minimum).
Oh damn, she has the broken writing on the reduce damage part too!
2x2 wounds at 2+/5++ (so overspill is possible)
6 wounds at 2+4++ (immune to d1, -1 damage on anything else).
Essentially it's a crazy bracket at 10, 8 and 6, and if you don't take her down a bracket she heals to the top of the previous one.
You know what, I'm using the 240pt/model paragons for now.
The one gap I guess is since you can't heal and move, minimising the damage until you're in charge range is key. Any time after that you're golden. Her and 9 repentia are 2cp for strategic reserves.
You're honestly probably going to be better off dropping both exorcists for 2 units of 2 crusaders. They can hold objectives, they can do actions, they're about as survivable as the exorcist is (I wish I was joking), and it saves you over 300pts you could put into something that can kill stuff.
At the very least you're going to want to drop one exorcists because you can't give both ignores LoS.
So, what should I add to this list, to make it more offensive? I'll might consider more retributors (10-strong squads), so they'll benefit from martyred lady bonus.
Taikishi wrote: Geminae are 2+/4++. And she and the Geminae can benefit from Look Out Sir! from Celestians and Sacresants now as they're "Sanctified Characters".
Was squinting and the blur looked more like a 5 than a 4. Even better then.
You're honestly probably going to be better off dropping both exorcists for 2 units of 2 crusaders. They can hold objectives, they can do actions, they're about as survivable as the exorcist is (I wish I was joking), and it saves you over 300pts you could put into something that can kill stuff.
At the very least you're going to want to drop one exorcists because you can't give both ignores LoS.
So, what should I add to this list, to make it more offensive? I'll might consider more retributors (10-strong squads), so they'll benefit from martyred lady bonus.
Honestly, outflanking min squad Retributors are still a solid option. More dominions would work well too. Mortifier and Pengines both remain solid mixed melee/shooting threats.
I wouldn't get too bogged down with trying to get the OOML bonus.If you CAN get it then that's great but it's even better to murder your opponent's units before they get to kill any models.
I'm really liking the look of war-hymned buzz blade pen engines as well. Theres not many better targets for a first turn war hymn (transports/reserves etc)
+1 to move, built in advance and charge, 6 attacks at 8 -4 d2 each. They come with the up to 8 s6 flamers for that strat, i think theres a lot to like.
Actually, I wonder if there's play for using war hymn to replace the double weapon bonus. So 1 flail and one buzz-blade. Not going to be the hyper-efficient option but you're not going to be in a position where you have the wrong weapon.
Siegfriedfr wrote: Morvenn vahl will be point nerfed to 320-350 by the end of the year.
They need to remove 30 points off all the tanks ( cept rhino).
The triumph should be 150 points.
They need to give repentia and seraphim something back to make them useful.
They need to revert characters points to what they were before hymns were added.
Morvenn will likely only see that nerf if it turns out sisters are still an A tier army, which tbh seems like a stretch. She might take a 10-15 point bump at some point but it's not like she's 8th ed guillamen.
Agreed. Possibly more for the exorcist.
Honestly they should take the whole unit back to the drawing board and rewrite it from scratch. It's an AoS model they tried to adapt for 40k and failed.
Seraphim yes, Repentia barely got touched. Between the buff to the repentia superior, the new BR stratagem actually being better for them than the old and imagifiers strength buff staying, they're not in a bad spot. Losing run and charge sucks but running up to auto-charge 12 was a bit silly.
I would also agree here. They're HEAVILY overvaluing Hymns. Being a command phase ability Hymn's suck except for a very few specific units.
Siegfriedfr wrote: Morvenn vahl will be point nerfed to 320-350 by the end of the year.
They need to remove 30 points off all the tanks ( cept rhino).
The triumph should be 150 points.
They need to give repentia and seraphim something back to make them useful.
They need to revert characters points to what they were before hymns were added.
I agree that Morvenn is going to catch a nerf. Hopefully not too far to where she's useless though. We can only hope they give the tanks a price cut; maybe if they see that their shiny new Castigator kit isn't selling well they'll fix it, at least. Repentia are okay as they are, just not as good as they used to be. At least they are cheaper now. Seraphim should never have lost the +6" range effect from Deadly Descent, as that killed the Inferno Pistol build. Again, we can only hope that they throw them some kind of a bone.
It's pretty much impossible to get the points on all-rounders right; when they are cheap they are auto-includes, when they aren't cheap they are auto-un-includes because the nature of an all-rounder piece is that its value doesn't really depend on anything else. It is hard for me to see how taking Vahl is ever going to be a meaningful choice as long as her rules stay as blandly and generically powerful as they are. I mean I guess if you come up with some bizarre list with no core units worth buffing that could be a break point that makes her worth taking or not worth taking on some metric other than simply her points...but surely no list like that is ever going to be viable. So she'll stay either in every competitive list or no competitive list depending on her pointing.
I see a lot of people citing Repentia nerfs, but advance+charge isn't one of them, if you're the Argent Shroud. Per the new 40kFAQ if you count as not having moved, you can still shoot normally, charge normally, etc...
It is still a net nerf, but Argent Shroud at least broadly leaves Repentia and Retributors usable and fairly strong.
the more I look at the other orders im learning towards ebon chalice instead of the usual valorous/rose, either that or some weird minor order combination for fun like witch hunters + vengence
not sure what sacred rites I would use though, probably guidence and aegis or guidence and light of the emperor
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: I see a lot of people citing Repentia nerfs, but advance+charge isn't one of them, if you're the Argent Shroud. Per the new 40kFAQ if you count as not having moved, you can still shoot normally, charge normally, etc...
It is still a net nerf, but Argent Shroud at least broadly leaves Repentia and Retributors usable and fairly strong.
But then you lose 2AP and 1 attack per model compared to the old BR build. That's a pretty massive nerf too - actually two less attacks in most cases, since the priest's buff becomes a lot harder to get now that it has to go off in the command phase and therefore can't be triggered on a unit that starts the turn in a rhino. Argent shroud repentia coming out of a rhino do less than half the damage that BR repentia coming out of a rhino used to do, even before you factor in the loss of the +1 to wound strat too.
No matter how you cut it, Repentia took the nerf bat to the face pretty hard.
What do you guys think of bloody rose builds?
It seems that the new sacresant units are very strong (might even replace the repentia), 2+/4++, buffs from hospitaller (6+++) and imagifier (+1S, reroll advance/charge). I'm thinking about list built around Vanguard detachment, because Elite slots are too crowded. Are the basic battle sisters necessary, or is it better to go fully melee?
Spreelock wrote: What do you guys think of bloody rose builds?
It seems that the new sacresant units are very strong (might even replace the repentia), 2+/4++, buffs from hospitaller (6+++) and imagifier (+1S, reroll advance/charge). I'm thinking about list built around Vanguard detachment, because Elite slots are too crowded. Are the basic battle sisters necessary, or is it better to go fully melee?
I have concerns about whether sacresants can really survive with the mortal wounds available right now.
But then you lose 2AP and 1 attack per model compared to the old BR build. That's a pretty massive nerf too - actually two less attacks in most cases, since the priest's buff becomes a lot harder to get now that it has to go off in the command phase and therefore can't be triggered on a unit that starts the turn in a rhino.
There is a 1CP strat that allows a Priest to use a Hymn at the start of any phase and it happens automatically too, so there's no issue with a Priest giving Repentia +1 attack after they get out of a Rhino. It's even better than before because they don't have to stay within 6 inches of the Priest to keep the buff either.
A Repentia Superior can also, in the command phase, give Repentia advance and charge along with a 3D6 discard the lowest charge but that is definitely harder to work around as you would have to run your Repentia on foot though not impossible if you use a good amount of obscuring terrain on your battlefields and use your Repentia as a counter charge unit at the mid table.
But then you lose 2AP and 1 attack per model compared to the old BR build. That's a pretty massive nerf too - actually two less attacks in most cases, since the priest's buff becomes a lot harder to get now that it has to go off in the command phase and therefore can't be triggered on a unit that starts the turn in a rhino.
There is a 1CP strat that allows a Priest to use a Hymn at the start of any phase and it happens automatically too, so there's no issue with a Priest giving Repentia +1 attack after they get out of a Rhino. It's even better than before because they don't have to stay within 6 inches of the Priest to keep the buff either.
A Repentia Superior can also, in the command phase, give Repentia advance and charge along with a 3D6 discard the lowest charge but that is definitely harder to work around as you would have to run your Repentia on foot though not impossible if you use a good amount of obscuring terrain on your battlefields and use your Repentia as a counter charge unit at the mid table.
Exactly what I was thinking, but is BR still auto include ? But on WTc tables BR repentias will still be there. Which is too bad, because it is strange to see non post humans with basically bi chain saws cutting down m9nsters 10 times their size… At least we will see a bit less of them I guess
One of the reviews I read said Repentia lost a point of AP base, but looking at the youtube, it's blurry, but it seems to still be -3? So I guess that bit was inaccurate, so taking them as argent shroud to allow for advance and charge "only" results in losing 1AP, 1 attack, and the +1 to wound strat they used to have, as well as having to spend that CP they would have spent on +1 wound to avoid losing the second attack they'd otherwise lose from the priest.
So no matter how you cut it, Repentia took it pretty hard. BR lost their + to wound strat and advance and charge, argent shroud loses a huge amount of damage output in order to regain advance and charge.
warmaster21 wrote: the more I look at the other orders im learning towards ebon chalice instead of the usual valorous/rose, either that or some weird minor order combination for fun like witch hunters + vengence
not sure what sacred rites I would use though, probably guidence and aegis or guidence and light of the emperor
Ebon Chalice sucks a lot when you've lost 2/3 of ways to get Miracle Dices back (WTs, Triumph was halved and Purity/Valour which also gave additional D3 Miracle Dice for 1 CP)
again, argent shroud is only remain stationary till the end of shooting. And with repentia being core, you could choose to give them full wound rerolls.
I think the answer with repentia is simply being more brave. Deploy them behind obscuring and use the imagifier/superior. Rhinos are for dominions and their friends now.
One of the reviews I read said Repentia lost a point of AP base, but looking at the youtube, it's blurry, but it seems to still be -3? So I guess that bit was inaccurate, so taking them as argent shroud to allow for advance and charge "only" results in losing 1AP, 1 attack, and the +1 to wound strat they used to have, as well as having to spend that CP they would have spent on +1 wound to avoid losing the second attack they'd otherwise lose from the priest.
So no matter how you cut it, Repentia took it pretty hard. BR lost their + to wound strat and advance and charge, argent shroud loses a huge amount of damage output in order to regain advance and charge.
I'd appreciate it if you could please go and learn what the actual rules in the codex are before you start discussing which units are bad or not? Argent Shroud doesn't give them advance and charge so you will keep using Bloody Rose for them, where the Repentia Superior can give them advance and charge and Priests can still give then +1 Attack, and they can get full rerolls to wound for free as well.
Repentia went down in points and the main thing they lost was the advance and charge strat with the only other thing that changed was the Bloody Rose strat going to a minor nerf or side grade/possible improvement depending if you are fighting T5 or less models or T6+ models. Otherwise they are exactly the same level of killyness once they get into combat if not more due to extra buffs we can now put on them.
Edit: The Repentia Superior also has an aura that gives Repentia +1 to wound now instead of reroll 1s to wound so we can still get that along with exploding 6's, 6's to hit auto wound, and full rerolls to wound on a unit and only have to spend 1 CP.
Someone else said Argent Shroud now allows advance and charge due to the wording, and I was giving them the benefit of the doubt that that is correct; if that's wrong, that simply reinforces the point that they got nerfed significantly, as it really does mean there is no way to advance and charge out of a transport any more.
The superior as a route to advance and charge is very problematic competitively due to the command phase limitation. Repentia that have to survive on the board for one of your opponent's turns before you can use them are repentia that are unlikely to survive for a turn before you use them. Sure, in some matchups they'll be fine - but anybody with strong mobility and/or out of LOS shooting will just pick them up. It's not something you can rely on, in a lot of matchups you'll be stuck reserving them and hoping your opponent can't screen you out so you have to waste them on something junky.
The problem with repentia was not their damage; being able to buff that even more is not important, they do enough damage already. The problem is the delivery. Starting T3, 6++ (maybe 5++ at best)/5+++ models on the board and expecting them to live to get a charge off - especially with 3" less threat range than they used to, even assuming they survive and you can put the advance and charge buff on them - is a massive downgrade from what you used to be able to do. And that's even before you reckon with the reduced miracle dice generation that makes it a lot more costly than it used to be to burn miracle dice on a guaranteed charge.
I think the answer with repentia is simply being more brave. Deploy them behind obscuring and use the imagifier/superior. Rhinos are for dominions and their friends now.
I think this is right, but it is a far less reliable plan than the old one. The days when you could reliably keep repentia alive until you needed them then deliver them 24"+ across the table are gone. They've gone from something that works vs pretty much everybody to something that can be an ace up your sleeve vs some armies due to the fight on death strat making them even better in certain circumstances, but is markedly less effective against any army that can shoot them off the table before you get to use them.
I'm already thinking about a go-wide MSU build for Argent Shroud. Something like 6x 5-girl BSS with Multi-meltas, and maybe combi-meltas on the Superiors. Really take advantage of the move/advance and count as stationary, plus take advantage of the hit or wound reroll. Throw in some Dominions with meltas and maybe a unit of Paragons with meltas, with Mortifiers/Pengines for mid-field brawling. Not sure how the points would work out for this though.
I think my new army list goes:
Shroud Bat:
HQ: Vahl / Missionary
Troops: 6x 5 BBS with 1x Multimelta each
Heavy: 2x 4 Penitent Engines
Bloody Rose Patrol:
HQ: Cannoness with +1 Invuln
Troops: 20x BBS with 4x Flamers
Elites: 2x 5 Sacrosancts
FA: 2x Dominions w/ 4x storm bolters
Transports: 2x rhinos
Rough estimate there is some change left over there for an extra small character or a few crusaders; probably could squeeze an imigifier.
Plan goes: 20 woman blob is going to be a solid anvil. It'll be constant transhuman, constant 4++ and have 4 flamers +16 bolters to make things not want to charge it. Very little will want to shoot it and it'll be a bully in melee; 60 str 4 ap -1 exploding 6s attacks rerolling everything as it will be the constant vahl target. Vahl will hang out with it.
6 shroud squads put out less firepower than the previous expected 8-12 multi melta rets but are way more spread out and harder to down; each MM has 4 ablative wounds and also is advancing, scoring, etc. It can't burn anything down quite as fast, but is a bit more accurate and way harder to wipe.
I think 4 man squads of penitents are probably among the best hammers we have. They are kinda weirdly durable for their points (it takes an average of 4 dark lance shots to kill one), getting baked in advance and charge along with +1 strength on flamers (meaning wounding new orcs on 3s, wyches on 2s, gravis on 3s, raiders on 4s, admech on 2s), able to be targeted by hymns and access to the max shot flame strat are all...a collection of small nice things that really ratchet them up. Now plenty of the time you won't want to advance and charge, but it's a nice option.
Finally the flex piece is the rhinos. They can move up early to grab objectives or pull back with the pre-game move, dominions are good for blessed bolts and support fire while sacros are a real legit trade-up unit that demands a real response unlike the stiff breeze of repentia. I think it would also be just as valid to drop the rhinos/dominions for a 2 squads of zerphym and 2 squads of flamer seraphim but I like the rhinos pulling anti-tank fire away from the penitent engines.
...I actually kinda am digging this list and I'm pretty sour on the changes.
Though, I do think you should find a place for 10 zephyrim.
With the 2/3cp combination of fiery orator (depending on where you start your zephyrim)/tear them down/holy rage(zealot)/passion, you get 17 auto wounds and 34 additional wound rolls..
Works out at 11/21 for repentia, though the benefit of doing it for zephyrim is ignoring the s4.
Only having Vahl + the min size MM sisters squads for ranged anti-tank seems risky, both in terms of not having much anti-tank period, but more importantly, in terms of not having enough anti-tank you can deliver to where it needs to go. Anti-tank is typically only really useful when massed - a stray MM here and there doesn't have much chance to kill anything. But it's going to be hard to get more than 2-3 of those MMs in range of any one thing at a time. So I am not really sure that it is going to actually effectively kill stuff, rather than just plinking off some wounds here and there. The thing that made retributors so good wasn't just the amount of MMs you could cram onto them, it was that they could deliver all those shots effectively to where they needed to go, thanks to being such a small footprint and having the strat to boost range when needed.
Second, while that battle sister blob will be tough for some armies to remove, others are going to do it quite trivially easy, especially if they get first turn and have an army that can hit it, because you can't get any of your buffs up until your own turn. And something like an ad mech vanguard blob will obliterate it even through all your buffs without breaking much of a sweat. Doesn't mean it's a bad choice, just that against some lists it's not going to do much of anything other than suck up your CP.
Finally, that list seems like it gets really done over by screens. Not having any deep strike or fly means your opponent can push all their screens forward. You obviously have the ability to kill those screens very easily with the penitent engines, but that leaves them sitting ducks on your opponent's turn. I am not sure about 2 blocks of 4, with each unit worth so many points it really limits them as trading pieces, and means you HAVE to get them into something good or they're wasted, which is difficult when they're the ones who are clearing screens in the first place. I'd consider breaking one of them into 2 units of 2 instead. That gives you two pieces you can trade and clear with so your 4-man squad can actually get in and do work afterwards.
warmaster21 wrote: the more I look at the other orders im learning towards ebon chalice instead of the usual valorous/rose, either that or some weird minor order combination for fun like witch hunters + vengence
not sure what sacred rites I would use though, probably guidence and aegis or guidence and light of the emperor
Ebon Chalice sucks a lot when you've lost 2/3 of ways to get Miracle Dices back (WTs, Triumph was halved and Purity/Valour which also gave additional D3 Miracle Dice for 1 CP)
I wasnt looking at it for the miracle dice shinanigans, more for the +4" flame range and the 2 sacred rights
yukishiro1 wrote: And something like an ad mech vanguard blob will obliterate it even through all your buffs without breaking much of a sweat. Doesn't mean it's a bad choice, just that against some lists it's not going to do much of anything other than suck up your CP.
Lets be fair though, enriched rounds is bs that kills anyone at least as much as it kills sisters. But yeah, not a guarantee.
I'm sorta of the opinion that the 20-girl BSS blob is going to be a trap. Much like 8th edition's big Possessed and Plague Marine blobs were for Chaos; they really didn't pan out all that well IIRC. Especially if they had to go second and eat a round of fire from their opponent before getting their buffs up. You need a fair number of moving parts to make it happen, and it's a lot of points in support units and the unit itself. "Death Star" units like that don't work as well in 8th-9th as they did in 7th, where they were a holy terror that is best left buried.
I think those are fair counter points. To address:
Re: Anti-tank. I think 6 multi-meltas (each with its own reroll to hit or wound, which I think is deceptively potent) and vahl backed by some miracle dice is not crazy anti-tank but I think it is sufficient. True tanks don't show up that much. This is still enough firepower to down a knight or pop 2 raiders. I think that's about what you need; it has secondary sources as well; flamer strat equipped penitents aren't actually bad at it, shave 8 wounds off a knight, same with mortal wounds from blessed bolts. Even mace-equipped sacrosancts in BR aren't awful at it. The sister squads are relatively small and, more importantly, extra mobile because they all not only move and shoot but advance and shoot. And they probably don't get wiped easily either. I do agree it isn't as strong as pre-nerf rets, but it does some things they couldn't (play the game, be more mobile) and, honestly, nothing is going to be as good straight anti tank as they were. I actually think sneaking a hunter killer missile on each rhino if the points work out would be worth it; again, due to shroud re-rolls.
Re: 20 man blob. So I think it is a valid point to feel it might be a trap. It's less that I think it will always work so much as it is a useful tool that I'm not actually investing that much in. It is flatly one of the better targets for vahl, though she can easily move to support anything else in the army as well. I have to spend points on HQs; there isn't really anything better for them to do and I'm not spending that much. Imigifier is so-so as an include; beyond her I'm only devoting a missionary and a cannoness (both of whom I have to have and who can move to support other elements of the army, missionary in particular). I think the cannoness/missionary are both mandatory for force org and pretty cheap and pretty able to flex elsewhere. So beyond those, I actually think it isn't a very big investment; 220 points for a unit that many armies will hate dealing with, everyone will have to answer with serious resources. I think the biggest strike against it is admech...and well, admech is probably the most broken codex at present. I think it is considerably more egregious than DE, particularly post-DE nerfs. Nothing can deal with it very well.
The ad mech comment made me go check what the imagifier stoic ability was again, (something about s3 right? sounds like it could counter the massed s3 bs) and... it's useless against enriched rounds. VH and a hospitaller does limit it to only 8-9 dead sisters, d3 of which can return.
A lot harder to remove, certainly (except in valorous heart, I guess) - and also a lot scarier offensively.
Big, resilient units are typically only worth it in 40k when they are either extremely difficult to kill, or extremely points efficient. I don't think the BSS blob probably qualifies as either.
yukishiro1 wrote: Someone else said Argent Shroud now allows advance and charge due to the wording, and I was giving them the benefit of the doubt that that is correct; if that's wrong, that simply reinforces the point that they got nerfed significantly, as it really does mean there is no way to advance and charge out of a transport any more.
Argent Shroud count as stationary until the end of the shooting phase, so by the time they get to charge they are no longer effected and the new rule that allows advance + charge does not apply.
Is it correct that the only options for advance + charge are the Repentia Superior on Repentia in the command phase and Penitent Engines with their new ability? I did not go through every preview in detail, so I might (even hope to) have missed something.
But then you lose 2AP and 1 attack per model compared to the old BR build. That's a pretty massive nerf too - actually two less attacks in most cases, since the priest's buff becomes a lot harder to get now that it has to go off in the command phase and therefore can't be triggered on a unit that starts the turn in a rhino.
There is a 1CP strat that allows a Priest to use a Hymn at the start of any phase and it happens automatically too, so there's no issue with a Priest giving Repentia +1 attack after they get out of a Rhino. It's even better than before because they don't have to stay within 6 inches of the Priest to keep the buff either.
A Repentia Superior can also, in the command phase, give Repentia advance and charge along with a 3D6 discard the lowest charge but that is definitely harder to work around as you would have to run your Repentia on foot though not impossible if you use a good amount of obscuring terrain on your battlefields and use your Repentia as a counter charge unit at the mid table.
I goddamn hate it when people are like 'oh it's fine, you can just throw CP at it to make it not suck!' like CP isn't a finite resource we already need too much off.
And it is impossible. Even with obscuring terrain it is completely impossible. If they can't kill the repentia, they'll just move away from them. If they can't move away from them and can't shoot them and can't charge first, they weren't close enough to charge to begin with.
No one, in the entire life of this book, will ever get the repentia superior targeted ability off. Not once.
warmaster21 wrote: the more I look at the other orders im learning towards ebon chalice instead of the usual valorous/rose, either that or some weird minor order combination for fun like witch hunters + vengence
not sure what sacred rites I would use though, probably guidence and aegis or guidence and light of the emperor
Ebon Chalice sucks a lot when you've lost 2/3 of ways to get Miracle Dices back (WTs, Triumph was halved and Purity/Valour which also gave additional D3 Miracle Dice for 1 CP)
I wasnt looking at it for the miracle dice shinanigans, more for the +4" flame range and the 2 sacred rights
The sacred rights are dogshit. The passion is the only one that isn't utterly worthless and Ebon Chalice can't use that one.
I've always found Repentia overkilled whatever they hit - I'm not concerned at all about being able to use them. I think they're still great. They aren't as good as they were, but they are appropriately costed for a unit that good. The old repentia were so good that there was no way they could be costed in such a way that made sense. With the changes, they're actually useable in any order without being oppressive in Bloody Rose.
On first read, I was pretty bummed out by the codex, but honestly other than the tanks being terrible I think it's still a good book.My only concern is long range anti tank - in that we don't really have any.
On a side note, Celestine and Stern are both incredible now. They need an inordinate amount of focus to take them out, and cannot be ignored without ruining your opponents day. I can see both getting use.
Does the hospitaller still revive sister models? I don't see that on the leaked data sheet. Just regaining a models wounds nothing about bringing anything back. Which is disappointing
Punisher wrote: Does the hospitaller still revive sister models? I don't see that on the leaked data sheet. Just regaining a models wounds nothing about bringing anything back. Which is disappointing
There's a stratagem for that, like the one Marine Apothecaries has.
Iirc it resurrects d3 models
Punisher wrote: Does the hospitaller still revive sister models? I don't see that on the leaked data sheet. Just regaining a models wounds nothing about bringing anything back. Which is disappointing
There's a stratagem for that, like the one Marine Apothecaries has.
Iirc it resurrects d3 models
This is correct. She gives out a FnP buff innately but has to pay CP to bring models back, but she brings back more models than the Apothecary can. Apparently faith is better than magic space organs for shrugging off being shot in the face?
Punisher wrote: Does the hospitaller still revive sister models? I don't see that on the leaked data sheet. Just regaining a models wounds nothing about bringing anything back. Which is disappointing
There's a stratagem for that, like the one Marine Apothecaries has.
Iirc it resurrects d3 models
This is correct. She gives out a FnP buff innately but has to pay CP to bring models back, but she brings back more models than the Apothecary can. Apparently faith is better than magic space organs for shrugging off being shot in the face?
Faith literally IS better than medicine canonically in 40k. Even with all their implants a Space Marine can't surcive a direct hit with a Meltagun to the face.
A Repentia can though.
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shabadoit wrote: I've always found Repentia overkilled whatever they hit - I'm not concerned at all about being able to use them. I think they're still great. They aren't as good as they were, but they are appropriately costed for a unit that good. The old repentia were so good that there was no way they could be costed in such a way that made sense. With the changes, they're actually useable in any order without being oppressive in Bloody Rose.
On first read, I was pretty bummed out by the codex, but honestly other than the tanks being terrible I think it's still a good book.My only concern is long range anti tank - in that we don't really have any.
On a side note, Celestine and Stern are both incredible now. They need an inordinate amount of focus to take them out, and cannot be ignored without ruining your opponents day. I can see both getting use.
I still can't see them ever being used outside of bloody rose. I can't see ANY <Order> melee units being useful outside of bloody rose.
Especially repentia considering they don't benefit from any of the other orders. AS? What are they gonna shoot? VH, I guess if your opponent targets them for smites? Sacred rose? Lol. Ooml? I guess getting 2 miracle dice when they get popped would be nice but vs like 30% of their damage? Ebon Chalice? Ooh plus 1 to charge! Such big, much wow!
OML looks decent if you run big squads as anything that makes it into combat will be swinging better, but for.most orders melee feels like a defensive tool instead of an offensive one.
ClockworkZion wrote: OML looks decent if you run big squads as anything that makes it into combat will be swinging better, but for.most orders melee feels like a defensive tool instead of an offensive one.
Arcos, mortifiers, and penitent engines are really good options for other orders. Every list need some kind of melee but <Order> units are too balanced around bloody rose. Why take diet repentia when arcos are perfectly fine?
ClockworkZion wrote: OML looks decent if you run big squads as anything that makes it into combat will be swinging better, but for.most orders melee feels like a defensive tool instead of an offensive one.
Arcos, mortifiers, and penitent engines are really good options for other orders. Every list need some kind of melee but <Order> units are too balanced around bloody rose. Why take diet repentia when arcos are perfectly fine?
Because sometimes you like to ask "will it blend?" Honestly I guess it depends what you want and what you want to spend. Plus unlike the things you listed the Repentia can still use Miracle dice and have a way to fight (or was it deal mortal woubds? I can't recall at the moment and I'm away from home) even if they're killed which helps offset the increasing mumber of "fights last" mechanisms in the game.
Had a thought about OML: it feels like a good pick for mechanized Sisters lists. 10 BSS + a Rhino seems like a decent way to gain faith dice by forcing them to pop your metal boxes while taking enough bodies to make the BSS inside likely to benefit from the +1 to hit bonus.
Though if I missed something I'm sure someone will tell me I'm am idiot any minute now.
+1 to hit on a BSS squad doesn't actually do all that much, because they have no real offense to begin with. Zero AP attacks have become largely obsolete these days due to save value proliferation.
I think the +1 to hit is awesome buff, especially with reroll ones (I play Dark Angels as my main army). And afterall, it's a wargame, casualties are bound to happen, so that 16% bonus to accuracy is quite good. The bolter may not seem much, but it can help thinning down hordes. Something to consider, the miracle dice our martyred lady gains are useful to boost either offensive or defensive.
yukishiro1 wrote: +1 to hit on a BSS squad doesn't actually do all that much, because they have no real offense to begin with. Zero AP attacks have become largely obsolete these days due to save value proliferation.
2+ is good for the special and heavy weapons though, and a 3+ to hit on melee buffs their defensive power if they get charged.
I mean a tiny bit, sure. But a single 3+ to hit S3 AP0 attack per model is almost as worthless as a 4+ to hit S3 AP0 attack.
The math on the +1 to hit from being below max strength really doesn't work out well for BSS squads, it's just so little damage they put out to begin with. When your shooting is lucky to kill a model in most cases, boosting it by 16% doesn't really matter. And if you're trying to boost a single MM in a squad, argent shroud is far, far better - you effectively get the +1 to hit anyway by ignoring movement penalties, plus a hit or wound reroll to boot.
yukishiro1 wrote: I mean a tiny bit, sure. But a single 3+ to hit S3 AP0 attack per model is almost as worthless as a 4+ to hit S3 AP0 attack.
The math on the +1 to hit from being below max strength really doesn't work out well for BSS squads, it's just so little damage they put out to begin with. When your shooting is lucky to kill a model in most cases, boosting it by 16% doesn't really matter. And if you're trying to boost a single MM in a squad, argent shroud is far, far better - you effectively get the +1 to hit anyway by ignoring movement penalties, plus a hit or wound reroll to boot.
I like the Miracle Die mechanic since it's a squishy army of T3 so it's more a look at how to get good mileage out of the other half too.
yukishiro1 wrote: +1 to hit on a BSS squad doesn't actually do all that much, because they have no real offense to begin with. Zero AP attacks have become largely obsolete these days due to save value proliferation.
2+ is good for the special and heavy weapons though, and a 3+ to hit on melee buffs their defensive power if they get charged.
You're still investing 200+ points hoping that when 91pts of it dies the other 108pts will be 16% better. A net loss of at least 73pts.
yukishiro1 wrote: +1 to hit on a BSS squad doesn't actually do all that much, because they have no real offense to begin with. Zero AP attacks have become largely obsolete these days due to save value proliferation.
2+ is good for the special and heavy weapons though, and a 3+ to hit on melee buffs their defensive power if they get charged.
You're still investing 200+ points hoping that when 91pts of it dies the other 108pts will be 16% better. A net loss of at least 73pts.
Rhino serves three purposes: mobility, protection and a free MD when it gets popped. The inevitable loss of at least a single model means the other 9 will see a buff to shooting.
Look, I get you hate everything ever about this book, but give some credit: if you want to go Mech Sisters it's not a bad option even if it's not the top tables at the LVO good. Not everything people discuss needs to be hyper optimized. Sometimes it's just good to work out the best way to use less optimized options.
Mmmpi wrote: Well, that would be a rare positive, though I'm not sure just how much use a seraphim squad can make of that attack.
Drop in and unload during the movement phase, then the shooting phase and charge anything that survives seems like a good way to clean up objectives or back line support units.
Love the book from the YouTube videos. I've not stopped looking at the new units with glee, and finally getting a look at old units with new coats of paint. GW success here by finally finding a way to make the army more than just BR Repentia and Retributor spam. What a failed codex the 8th one was. No internal balance, and meta skewing bs with Rets.
Finally a good codex for Sisters. I can't wait to expand my collection.
Mmmpi wrote: I'm used to fighting marines, so that's not always reliable for a bunch of str 3 attacks.
That's fair. I've always been a bit disappointed that pistols can't use their profile in melee so I can get the desire to stay away from the S3 attacks. That said, anything that gets shot 20 or 40+ times (depending if you go 5 models or 10 and if you use hand flamers or not) and lives either won't have much to kill, or was a mistake to shoot at in the first place.
Immolators stratagem ONLY WORKS ON THE FLAMER! WHY?!?!?!?!
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christianA wrote: For the new book can you use the deadly descent strat and the blessed bolts strat in the same phase?
No, deadly descent is movement blessed bolts is shooting. Also blessed bolts only works on stormbolters which seraphim don't have.
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Vilgeir wrote: Love the book from the YouTube videos. I've not stopped looking at the new units with glee, and finally getting a look at old units with new coats of paint. GW success here by finally finding a way to make the army more than just BR Repentia and Retributor spam. What a failed codex the 8th one was. No internal balance, and meta skewing bs with Rets.
Finally a good codex for Sisters. I can't wait to expand my collection.
christianA wrote: For the new book can you use the deadly descent strat and the blessed bolts strat in the same phase?
No, but there's no overlap between the two strats anyway. Blessed bolts is only in the shooting phase, and it only works on the dominion storm bolters. Deadly descent is only in the movement phase, and it only works on Seraphim.
Mmmpi wrote: I'm used to fighting marines, so that's not always reliable for a bunch of str 3 attacks.
That's fair. I've always been a bit disappointed that pistols can't use their profile in melee so I can get the desire to stay away from the S3 attacks. That said, anything that gets shot 20 or 40+ times (depending if you go 5 models or 10 and if you use hand flamers or not) and lives either won't have much to kill, or was a mistake to shoot at in the first place.
I mean...6 intercessors survive 10 double shooting seraphim with handflamers+melee.
ERJAK wrote: Obvious Troll is obvious. Go somewhere else.
I'd argue it's at least a more interesting codex. Each Order feels like it leans into a different kind of build and they addressed some of the more abusive elements of the book. I get that you think that if it can't beat pre-nerf Drukhari with it's eyes closed and both hands behind it's back it's bad, but as someone who doesn't play competitively I feel the book is more interesting and most of the nerfs were side grades instead of straight downgrades.
ERJAK wrote: Obvious Troll is obvious. Go somewhere else.
I'd argue it's at least a more interesting codex. Each Order feels like it leans into a different kind of build and they addressed some of the more abusive elements of the book. I get that you think that if it can't beat pre-nerf Drukhari with it's eyes closed and both hands behind it's back it's bad, but as someone who doesn't play competitively I feel the book is more interesting and most of the nerfs were side grades instead of straight downgrades.
This right here. All we have to do is find new ways to play, and Sisters will still be competitively relevant. I'm glad we're not broken on the level of Drukhari or AdMech; power creep is bad for the game in the long run.
On a side note, I didn't think I'd ever have a use for the Penitent Engine from the launch box. Now, I'm actually thinking of building my unbuild Penitent Engines kit as actual Pengines to make a unit of 3 of them. Who'da thunk?
ERJAK wrote: Obvious Troll is obvious. Go somewhere else.
I'd argue it's at least a more interesting codex. Each Order feels like it leans into a different kind of build and they addressed some of the more abusive elements of the book. I get that you think that if it can't beat pre-nerf Drukhari with it's eyes closed and both hands behind it's back it's bad, but as someone who doesn't play competitively I feel the book is more interesting and most of the nerfs were side grades instead of straight downgrades.
This right here. All we have to do is find new ways to play, and Sisters will still be competitively relevant. I'm glad we're not broken on the level of Drukhari or AdMech; power creep is bad for the game in the long run.
On a side note, I didn't think I'd ever have a use for the Penitent Engine from the launch box. Now, I'm actually thinking of building my unbuild Penitent Engines kit as actual Pengines to make a unit of 3 of them. Who'da thunk?
Penitent Engines definitely seem to have a better place now, plus with those S6 flamers they'll be prime to throw at those new tougher Orks.
It's a better balanced book, I'm really not sure it's a more interesting book. What made sisters interesting in the past was their rough edges and weird rules, and a lot of those got toned down.
And what got added is mostly pretty generic stuff - the new units are all pretty bland, prayers C&Ped from the standard formulas, upgrades that function exactly the same as the ad mech ones, etc etc. It doesn't really feel like a book written by someone who loved the faction, it feels like a book written by someone brought in to standardize things.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's a better balanced book, I'm really not sure it's a more interesting book. What made sisters interesting in the past was their rough edges and weird rules, and a lot of those got toned down.
And what got added is mostly pretty generic stuff - the new units are all pretty bland, prayers C&Ped from the standard formulas, upgrades that function exactly the same as the ad mech ones, etc etc. It doesn't really feel like a book written by someone who loved the faction, it feels like a book written by someone brought in to standardize things.
To me it was the aggressive close range playstyle that forces you to balance how close you get to the enemy to inflict damage without being blown off the table, and the incredibly gothic models that make the army interesting. We kept that, and Miracle Dice are still great, if less abundant than before. The 1/6 to put a psyker in time out is hilarious too.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's a better balanced book, I'm really not sure it's a more interesting book. What made sisters interesting in the past was their rough edges and weird rules, and a lot of those got toned down.
And what got added is mostly pretty generic stuff - the new units are all pretty bland, prayers C&Ped from the standard formulas, upgrades that function exactly the same as the ad mech ones, etc etc. It doesn't really feel like a book written by someone who loved the faction, it feels like a book written by someone brought in to standardize things.
I'd agree but this book added some clear dud options to the book, like tanks. With that it's hard to say it's better balanced.
Saint C and the twins are also a design nightmare that they've brought back...
yukishiro1 wrote: It's a better balanced book, I'm really not sure it's a more interesting book. What made sisters interesting in the past was their rough edges and weird rules, and a lot of those got toned down.
And what got added is mostly pretty generic stuff - the new units are all pretty bland, prayers C&Ped from the standard formulas, upgrades that function exactly the same as the ad mech ones, etc etc. It doesn't really feel like a book written by someone who loved the faction, it feels like a book written by someone brought in to standardize things.
I'd agree but this book added some clear dud options to the book, like tanks. With that it's hard to say it's better balanced.
Saint C and the twins are also a design nightmare that they've brought back...
Tanks are a game wide issue, not just a Sisters one. They need to do something to fix the tanks themselves to make them worth taking.
As for Celestine I think they've done a lot to clean her up. In fact we now have 3 mixed units and they all have a "X must take wounds first" rule baked in.
ERJAK wrote: Obvious Troll is obvious. Go somewhere else.
I'd argue it's at least a more interesting codex. Each Order feels like it leans into a different kind of build and they addressed some of the more abusive elements of the book. I get that you think that if it can't beat pre-nerf Drukhari with it's eyes closed and both hands behind it's back it's bad, but as someone who doesn't play competitively I feel the book is more interesting and most of the nerfs were side grades instead of straight downgrades.
Repentia are still our best melee threat and Retributors went from statistically the best option to our only viable shooting threat.
I've been looking at this every which way since the review dropped and I just don't see how anything else ends up being better than maxed BR repentia with 3 squads of ASMM retributors and Vahl.
We're stuck with exactly the same two units except now they require even more resources to be slightly less reliable.
Personally I think Sacresants are better than Repentia, although both most likely have their uses. Repentia are an elimination threat; you throw them at something you want dead, and it dies, and then they die. Sacresants are more of a brawler type of unit; able to take hits and still dish out decent damage with their D2 maces.
And I still think putting MM in a bunch of MSU Argent Shroud squads is better than running Retributors because of the reroll ability. Plus you don't have all your eggs in one basket. Depending on what else is in the list, you could probably still take one or two Retributor units to bring in from reserves for spike damage. Hell, go MSU a bit with those also, taking only a couple of MM and a Cherub so you can get a little more concentrated firepower in a couple of places.
Lammia wrote: I'd agree but this book added some clear dud options to the book, like tanks. With that it's hard to say it's better balanced.
Saint C and the twins are also a design nightmare that they've brought back...
Some would point out that making the tanks duds is indeed standardizing the book with the rest of 9th edition.
I actually agree re Saint C, she's the one place they've taken what was there and made it weirder and wackier. But my initial sense is that they did it in a way that is going to cause a lot of frustration for less tactically astute players running less competitive lists, without necessarily making her all that more compelling competitively.
ERJAK wrote: Obvious Troll is obvious. Go somewhere else.
I'd argue it's at least a more interesting codex. Each Order feels like it leans into a different kind of build and they addressed some of the more abusive elements of the book. I get that you think that if it can't beat pre-nerf Drukhari with it's eyes closed and both hands behind it's back it's bad, but as someone who doesn't play competitively I feel the book is more interesting and most of the nerfs were side grades instead of straight downgrades.
Repentia are still our best melee threat and Retributors went from statistically the best option to our only viable shooting threat.
I've been looking at this every which way since the review dropped and I just don't see how anything else ends up being better than maxed BR repentia with 3 squads of ASMM retributors and Vahl.
We're stuck with exactly the same two units except now they require even more resources to be slightly less reliable.
So you say, but between your track record of being proven wrong on other claims and Dominions being better I'm going to take anything you say with a lot of salt.
Honestly I feel there is more viability in the book than you're willing to see, that or your meta is so MEQ that you can only think of the book in that context. Either way I feel like this book will be interesting as things shake out over time.
Lammia wrote: I'd agree but this book added some clear dud options to the book, like tanks. With that it's hard to say it's better balanced.
Saint C and the twins are also a design nightmare that they've brought back...
Some would point out that making the tanks duds is indeed standardizing the book with the rest of 9th edition.
I actually agree re Saint C, she's the one place they've taken what was there and made it weirder and wackier. But my initial sense is that they did it in a way that is going to cause a lot of frustration for less tactically astute players running less competitive lists, without necessarily making her all that more compelling competitively.
Honestly I'm okay with less competetive stuff going into the books. I mean one of the characters comes with a rule for crusade right on her datasheet. If anything this shows that GW is starting to pay more attention to adding things to the game for stuff outside of matched play.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's a better balanced book, I'm really not sure it's a more interesting book. What made sisters interesting in the past was their rough edges and weird rules, and a lot of those got toned down.
And what got added is mostly pretty generic stuff - the new units are all pretty bland, prayers C&Ped from the standard formulas, upgrades that function exactly the same as the ad mech ones, etc etc. It doesn't really feel like a book written by someone who loved the faction, it feels like a book written by someone brought in to standardize things.
I'd agree but this book added some clear dud options to the book, like tanks. With that it's hard to say it's better balanced.
Saint C and the twins are also a design nightmare that they've brought back...
Tanks are a game wide issue, not just a Sisters one. They need to do something to fix the tanks themselves to make them worth taking.
As for Celestine I think they've done a lot to clean her up. In fact we now have 3 mixed units and they all have a "X must take wounds first" rule baked in.
"Make the Exocist worse" was actively not the way to improve tanks though.
What they did to the Exorcist is classic "hold my beer!" GW stuff. It's like they couldn't decide whether to make it be a battle tank or make it artillery that ignores LOS, so they compromised by making it ineffective and impractical in both roles.
yukishiro1 wrote: It's a better balanced book, I'm really not sure it's a more interesting book. What made sisters interesting in the past was their rough edges and weird rules, and a lot of those got toned down.
And what got added is mostly pretty generic stuff - the new units are all pretty bland, prayers C&Ped from the standard formulas, upgrades that function exactly the same as the ad mech ones, etc etc. It doesn't really feel like a book written by someone who loved the faction, it feels like a book written by someone brought in to standardize things.
I'd agree but this book added some clear dud options to the book, like tanks. With that it's hard to say it's better balanced.
Saint C and the twins are also a design nightmare that they've brought back...
Tanks are a game wide issue, not just a Sisters one. They need to do something to fix the tanks themselves to make them worth taking.
As for Celestine I think they've done a lot to clean her up. In fact we now have 3 mixed units and they all have a "X must take wounds first" rule baked in.
"Make the Exocist worse" was actively not the way to improve tanks though.
Feels more like they're standardizing the statline of the Rhino chassis or treating it like a Whirlwind. I'm not saying it was a good change but the problem is greater than nerfing the Exorcist's statline.
Repentia might be the best damage dealer for melee in the book, but i'm starting to like sacresant who trade 1 point of damage for best armour in the book (with halberds). Also, the castigator seems decent platform of firepower against both anti infantry and tanks.
yukishiro1 wrote: It doesn't really feel like a book written by someone who loved the faction, it feels like a book written by someone brought in to standardize things.
I agree with this and think it's probably the main reason for the lack of excitement around the book.
After DE and Admech,.which were clearly written by people who loved the factions and wanted them to be cool (and struggled to balance a faction the had so much affection for...), the Sisters book feels like they were less concerned about the way it felt to play and more about putting out a balanced book.
Nexrons and Space Marines feel the same as Sisters to me.
It is _really_ hard to be objective about the rules of the faction you love, the DE book especially shows this. Everything is written in a way that makes it 'cool' at the expensive of balance.
yukishiro1 wrote: It doesn't really feel like a book written by someone who loved the faction, it feels like a book written by someone brought in to standardize things.
I agree with this and think it's probably the main reason for the lack of excitement around the book.
After DE and Admech,.which were clearly written by people who loved the factions and wanted them to be cool (and struggled to balance a faction the had so much affection for...), the Sisters book feels like they were less concerned about the way it felt to play and more about putting out a balanced book.
Nexrons and Space Marines feel the same as Sisters to me.
It is _really_ hard to be objective about the rules of the faction you love, the DE book especially shows this. Everything is written in a way that makes it 'cool' at the expensive of balance.
I feel like most of the love was directed towards Crusade with the whole saint point system. The new stuff also feels like a lot of thought and attention was put into it as well. That said, there are a lot less sharp edges to grab people with this book, at least from what we know right now and the limited information we can gather from fuzzy screenshots of book reviews.
Details have most certainly been missed in those reviews (can't blame them considering the short amount of prep time they had) and who knows what'll start coming out from the books once people have them in hand to dig into. Plus there is an initial shock that people need to get over about the changes since many of them seem worse until you actually dig into them some more. It'll take the internet a bit of time to compare things completely.
On reflection, I think the book is probably better than the 8th one was at release.
That had a bunch of dud units (dominions, pen engines, honestly even retributors were questionable...), and it wasn't until the changes to Power Swords and Melta at the start of 9th that a bunch of the units suddenly became great.
Tanks aside, and tanks as mentioned aren't a sister problem alone, I think everything in the book is at least _useable_, even Celestians and Warsuits will work in the right list.
As I've said before, I fear mortals as a big danger point for the sacresants. I don't think they rate in a bloody rose list, pretty much my entire meta can put out the mortals to take them down.
Valorous has the native 5+++ against mortals, and argent has a 4+++ that can be poppped when a mortal is about to happen so thats nice.
Both have some degree of synergy with retributors (but oh no you might have to spend 1cp).
Even then, I don't think 5 ferried by dominions is anywhere near sturdy enough.
dammit wrote: As I've said before, I fear mortals as a big danger point for the sacresants. I don't think they rate in a bloody rose list, pretty much my entire meta can put out the mortals to take them down.
Valorous has the native 5+++ against mortals, and argent has a 4+++ that can be poppped when a mortal is about to happen so thats nice.
Both have some degree of synergy with retributors (but oh no you might have to spend 1cp).
Even then, I don't think 5 ferried by dominions is anywhere near sturdy enough.
Hospitaller can give them 6+++, and revive d3 models per turn. In addittion, you'll have 6s to deny psychic powers. And if i'm not mistaken, one stratagem can give one of your units sacred rite (5+ deny) in addittion/ instead of the current rite.
Point for point, they're no more susceptible to mortals than DG terminators and not massively worse off than Bladeguard, which is something to keep in mind.
If you push 5 up in a rhino, you're pretty much offering them as a trade. But for 70/75 points I'm probably okay with that.
I like it. I think it'd be fun and would play missions well enough.
I'd look at getting a diagolus or dogmata in though, even at the expensive of the Imagifier. I also think maces are better in Bloody Rose, but halberds are cooler so there is that.
I'd actually drop an Exorcist from that list and try to get some Battle Sister squads in there. Exorcist can sleaze the stratagem the first couple of rounds when needed to stay safe, but having two kinda means one needs to become exposed. And you're automatically starting 3 CP down due to using a Vanguard instead of a Battalion. Foot sisters also give you something to settle in on objectives to score points while your heat-seeking missiles distract the eye-line of your opponent.
I think Exorcists are still decent, but are going to be victims of diminishing returns with their weakened stat line without the comfort of Devastating Refrain to keep 'em safe while you deal with the things that can fry 'em.
Edit: Forgot to explicitly point out: I believe CP are going to be super valuable for our armies, so taking 3 CP dings for specialist detachments is a lot worse now. That's the heart of why I think there needs to be more battle sisters instead of the second Exorcist.
ZergSmasher wrote: Personally I think Sacresants are better than Repentia, although both most likely have their uses. Repentia are an elimination threat; you throw them at something you want dead, and it dies, and then they die. Sacresants are more of a brawler type of unit; able to take hits and still dish out decent damage with their D2 maces.
And I still think putting MM in a bunch of MSU Argent Shroud squads is better than running Retributors because of the reroll ability. Plus you don't have all your eggs in one basket. Depending on what else is in the list, you could probably still take one or two Retributor units to bring in from reserves for spike damage. Hell, go MSU a bit with those also, taking only a couple of MM and a Cherub so you can get a little more concentrated firepower in a couple of places.
1 MM and a combi-melta in a 5-model squad, especially now that you must take 10 to get an extra meltagun, isn't going to put out anywhere near the damage 4MM. And two 5-model squads each with a MM and combi-melta is less efficient than either melta-minions or MM Retributors.
Two units of 5 Battle Sisters armed with one combi-melta and one MM is 170 points.
One unit of melta-minions with a combi-weapon is 110
One unit of MM Rets is 150.
Both of the last two units will do the same or more damage for 20-60 points less.
dammit wrote: As I've said before, I fear mortals as a big danger point for the sacresants. I don't think they rate in a bloody rose list, pretty much my entire meta can put out the mortals to take them down.
Valorous has the native 5+++ against mortals, and argent has a 4+++ that can be poppped when a mortal is about to happen so thats nice.
Both have some degree of synergy with retributors (but oh no you might have to spend 1cp).
Even then, I don't think 5 ferried by dominions is anywhere near sturdy enough.
Hospitaller can give them 6+++, and revive d3 models per turn. In addittion, you'll have 6s to deny psychic powers. And if i'm not mistaken, one stratagem can give one of your units sacred rite (5+ deny) in addittion/ instead of the current rite.
There's Battle Rites, which still changes a Sacred Rite for your army with a randomly determined that isn't current active for your army. Then, there's a relic that can be given to a Superior (or other character) that gives that unit TWO Sacred Rites of your choice, selected before determine Rites for your army. Then, until the end of the battle, those rites are active for the bearer's unit instead of the ones the rest of your army has.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, there's a Hymn one your Sororitas priests can recite to give a friendly Sororitas Core or Character unit a Sacred Rite that isn't active for your army and is in addition to the ones already affecting the unit.
Nice, thanks. So, there's alot of things to consider, and the codex isn't even out yet
The bloody rose is really intresting, as melee options have good synergy;
- extra attack and ap first round of combat
- sacred rite (the passion) for exploding 6s in melee
- imagifier auras with tale of warrior and tale of faithful (+1S, reroll advance and charge)
The problem with comparing 2 BSS with 1x melta vs 1 Dom or 1 Ret squad is that you're totally discounting everything outside of raw weapon efficiency.
Both Doms and Rets begin degrading as soon as they're looked at, neither can hold multiple objectives individually.
This is why the efficiency arguments are so off-putting for me. We pretend the game is about blasting efficiency when there is so little actually riding on the outcome of destroying the opponent. Sure, it is nice to blast the other guy off the table with hyper-specialized units that do what you tap them to, usually very inefficiently at times with overkill. But threat distribution, guiding more enemy fire into bolter sisters, and the ability to control the table with a mix of offense and defense will probably win you more games. The two-turn kill is super appealing... until it doesn't work.
yukishiro1 wrote: It doesn't really feel like a book written by someone who loved the faction, it feels like a book written by someone brought in to standardize things.
I agree with this and think it's probably the main reason for the lack of excitement around the book.
After DE and Admech,.which were clearly written by people who loved the factions and wanted them to be cool (and struggled to balance a faction the had so much affection for...), the Sisters book feels like they were less concerned about the way it felt to play and more about putting out a balanced book.
Nexrons and Space Marines feel the same as Sisters to me.
It is _really_ hard to be objective about the rules of the faction you love, the DE book especially shows this. Everything is written in a way that makes it 'cool' at the expensive of balance.
I feel like most of the love was directed towards Crusade with the whole saint point system. The new stuff also feels like a lot of thought and attention was put into it as well. That said, there are a lot less sharp edges to grab people with this book, at least from what we know right now and the limited information we can gather from fuzzy screenshots of book reviews.
Details have most certainly been missed in those reviews (can't blame them considering the short amount of prep time they had) and who knows what'll start coming out from the books once people have them in hand to dig into. Plus there is an initial shock that people need to get over about the changes since many of them seem worse until you actually dig into them some more. It'll take the internet a bit of time to compare things completely.
I disagree about the new stuff having thought and attention.
Paragons are mediocre copiea of mortifiers, sacresants are just armored repentia, the castigator is just a bad old exorcist, hymns are just bad auras, the banner lady is just a bad primaris ancient the dogmata is just a bad bikeless chaplain.
Everything is either a direct copy of something else or a toned down version of something better.
Yeah, the new stuff (I don't pay any attention to crusade, no idea there) is all derivative stuff that existed in other books already, there's not really anything unique or interesting. And the unique stuff that sisters did have generally got reduced in importance - e.g. nerfs to miracle dice generation, making the Triumph a sad shadow of itself, etc. Celestine is the one place in the book where they took something from the 8th edition book and made it weirder and more unique, not less.
Spreelock wrote: Nice, thanks. So, there's alot of things to consider, and the codex isn't even out yet
The bloody rose is really intresting, as melee options have good synergy;
- extra attack and ap first round of combat
- sacred rite (the passion) for exploding 6s in melee
- imagifier auras with tale of warrior and tale of faithful (+1S, reroll advance and charge)
We already had all of that. In fact, it's worse that the previous book because thAP used be be permanent and also worked on pistols.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dammit wrote: As I've said before, I fear mortals as a big danger point for the sacresants. I don't think they rate in a bloody rose list, pretty much my entire meta can put out the mortals to take them down.
Valorous has the native 5+++ against mortals, and argent has a 4+++ that can be poppped when a mortal is about to happen so thats nice.
Both have some degree of synergy with retributors (but oh no you might have to spend 1cp).
Even then, I don't think 5 ferried by dominions is anywhere near sturdy enough.
At the end of the day They're 1 wound t3 models, even with a 2+4++ they die to bolter fire and intercessor attacks. If they spend their mortal wound abilities on them that's a HUGE win.
Sacrosants are Repentia. They function the same way repentia do. They jump out of a rhino or outflank, kill one important thing and die.
The difference between the two is that sacrosants have to go after softer targets than repentia BUT in exchange for that your opponent actually has to dedicate a shooting unit to killing them instead of just using hull mounted stormbolters.
They're probably the best of the new non-morvenn units but they're not exactly Deathguard terminators or Deathwing Knights.
I disagree about the new stuff having thought and attention.
Paragons are mediocre copiea of mortifiers, sacresants are just armored repentia, the castigator is just a bad old exorcist, hymns are just bad auras, the banner lady is just a bad primaris ancient the dogmata is just a bad bikeless chaplain.
Everything is either a direct copy of something else or a toned down version of something better.
A copy how? By sharing a similar statline and no special rules? You are reaching to justify your hate of the book and coming up short.
No one is forcing you to like it but stop crapping up the tactics thread with this nonsense. Maybe go start a salt thread on 40k General if all you want to do is complain aboug how bad you think everything is. This thread is supposed to be focused on tactics of what wr have, not bashing the army based on what we don't.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: Yeah, the new stuff (I don't pay any attention to crusade, no idea there) is all derivative stuff that existed in other books already, there's not really anything unique or interesting. And the unique stuff that sisters did have generally got reduced in importance - e.g. nerfs to miracle dice generation, making the Triumph a sad shadow of itself, etc. Celestine is the one place in the book where they took something from the 8th edition book and made it weirder and more unique, not less.
You mean the Imperium army who uses Imperium equipment and has stuff made for them by the Mechanicus who makes all the Imperium's equipment has stuff similar to other Imperium armies? s/I would have never expected that./s
The fact that Sacrosancts take more than Havoc Launchers and hull-mounted Stormbolters to remove is the WHOLE POINT. It is what makes them different than Repentia. Many things in melee aren't rocking the AP stats of guns, either, so that 2+/4++ means A LOT more than the 6++/5+++. They don't function similarly nor address the same problems that Repentia do.
I know we're just trying to be nit-picky and salty here, I've noticed that trend when new stuff comes out. Remember how "sky is falling" when the beta and 8th codices came out, by many of the same people here? I do. Same names. Those analyses were WAY off back then, and I imagine they're just as inaccurate now.
Sisters were never supposed to hit as hard as Drukhari, and weren't supposed to take hits as well as any Astartes. But the fact is, we take hits better than Drukhari for the most part, and can hit harder than Astartes as a whole. So trying to go toe-to-toe with the premier defensive or offensive factions in the game is just a lesson in frustration. If you want to blast everything away with Raiders and Dark Lances and Wytches and find that Sisters aren't providing that experience... there may be some more Drukhari boxes in stock to purchase. But sitting in here and moaning about how awful everything is just looks petty and is DEFINITELY not helpful in any regard. So let's shift away from that talk and onto what the army CAN do.
To add to that, Sisters are traditionally what I call a short-range "elite horde". They're more durable than your typical horde army, but are too squishy and cheap to be an elite army (around 5th as we were around 1.5 Sisters to 1 Marine and we're to 1.8 Sisters to 1 Marine now in body count) Most of their work is done inside of 24" (often skirting 12"). I don't think this has really changed, even though we have more long range options, and we gained more melee options.
At the end of the day when you get down to it Sisters largely still play the way they always have, they've just gained more tools.
As for Sacrosancts, I've used Crusaders in the past as an anvil to get in and tie stuff up for a turn or two or just protect things with their good saves. Honestly I feel that they fit the same role, only better.
At 14ppm they're cheap enough to toss in to a combat to tie up a unit without feeling a real pinch, but they also fight decently well to take some models down with them. Their durability is better too so they won't fold as easilly while helping control what your opponent can engage thanks to their ability to heroically intervene as well.
I usually really like Goonhammer's Codex reviews and think they are spot on 98% of the time, but you can't just claim the Codex has "much improved internal balance" and then preceed the entry of every single HQ unit with the sentence "ye, quite good, probably, but just take Vahl". Sure, sub-faction balance is improved, which I like, but there is too many heavy handed hard nerfs to units, the type resulting in lots of models ending up in shelves to gather dust.
Not really all that happy with the Codex, and not just because of us getting another Codex after less than 16 months (not to mention those of us who didn't get a single game in with the 2020 Codex because of the pandemic ...), rather one for a faction that desparately needs one, like Tau. Guess Sisters sold that crazy that we are now getting the sort of "most favorite son" treatment from GW that was previously only reserved for Marines, lmao
While it certainly buffs quite a few units, the units it nerfs hard like Exorcists or Non-Heavy-Flamer Retributors, it nerfs in such a questionably fundamental way that it'll be an issue until the next Codex release. The Codex's power is artifically buoyed up with Vahl's utter overpoweredness, and even besides me being very much against any sort of "so crazy good, cheap and flawless you would be absolutely slowed not to always take it" unit in a general sense, we all know how hard the rules writers are nerfing overperforming units (or previously very well performing and common tournament double- or triple take units like Exorcists) these days.
Vahl will swamp Tourneys, then 100% be hit hard with the nerf hammer, repeatedly, within months, probably to the point she ends up not worth taking at all (because boy is it hard to properly price a unit with absolutely no downsides with which you can use to justify adjusting the final point cost downward a bit, including disadvantages like being limited to a overall lower strength Order/subfaction). Meanwhile Retributors losing both the Strategem AND not being able to move and fire Heavy Weapons without penalty (which any Devastator-style unit should have, IMO) can now only be compensated by point costs after the Codex release, and they are already down to 12 points per model, while the writers are extremely unlikely to change the price of something as common as "Multi-Melta" because it affects too many units in the Codex, so what is going to happen, another singular -1 point drop per model?
Or the poor Exorcist. It would have to drop a huge amount of points to compensate for:
1) -1 Toughness, despite being a very expensive direct fire tank
2) -1 Nerf to AP 3) - No CORE, so pretty much most Aura buffs being out.
Will that happen? Probably not, because GW seems to be overvaluating battle tanks a lot this Edition and not consider how much of a nerf not being CORE is. We'll probably get like a -5 or -10 point cost adjustment and that's it.
Meanwhile Seraphim can be happy they have Hand Flamers as an option (and that they are getting buffed with S4 and the previously Ebon Chalice Strat. becoming general issue), because boy would they be dead without it.
The Admech Codex seems much better thought out: Buffs to tons of unit so they become options worth taking in various ways, the nerfed units (excluding regular Servitors, lmao) are still good or definitely playable even with a shifted focus (Kastelan Robots you now run with 2x Blasters and one Fist and advance them onto an objective and munch things when there). And units that were nerfed without worthwhile point drops were already priced at very attractive price points to still keep them as good units, such as the Onager Dunecrawler (which is the sort of price point the Exorcist should probably have, ~135-140 points). Sure, Lazor chickens are the new AT hotness, but you can still run 2 Crabs and feel absolutely fine about it because they are good, versatile and well priced without haven taken a wrench to the fundamental way they work and get their job done. And while their old Codex was still good, a new Codex was absolutely justified with the last one being 4 years old.
That said, as an Ebon Chalice player, my favorite Order got quite a bit better and Heavy Flamer Retributors are absolute blenders with the Flamer-buff strategems available through EC and general strategems, not to mention Seraphim delivering the sort of turn 1 deepstrike hurt we are used to, even if against a different type of target. And that's on top of probably being the second best order in melee thanks to getting to pick TWO melee buffing Sacred Rites.
On the surface a lot of stuff looka worse but it's been shown that most of it saw side grades instead of straight downgrades. Like less than a percentage difference worse.
And Vahl is obviously good, but she's a points bump away from being shelved entirely.
Honestly I don't think Goonhammer had a lot of time with this book to really dig into how much stuff changed or if it really shifted as much as it looks when you look at it without digging deeper. Not their fault entirely since SEO means they need to be up early when the embargo drops but books have been coming late.
For Celestine and her Geminaes. I assuming that they count as a character unit and I'm sure people have discussed this already. For the secondary assassinate, they would give up 9 pts for that secondary right or could it be more for the resurrected Geminaes? Because the secondary counts each character model, not unit. This seems very risky to have Celestine in your army.
Assassinate is at the end of the game, so it doesn't matter how many times you kill the Geminae and how many times they get rezzed, it's 9 points max. And it's definitely 9 points, there's no doubt about that. No FAQ needed. Each character is 3 points, not each character unit.
I really don't think it's much of a risk though; between her healing to full every turn and rezzing a Geminae and character protection and the coming back to life the first time she dies on a 2+ as well, it takes a *lot* to kill her dead for good, to the point where taking assassinate is probably a trap unless you have a bunch of crappy buff characters for them to hoover up too.
christianA wrote: For Celestine and her Geminaes. I assuming that they count as a character unit and I'm sure people have discussed this already. For the secondary assassinate, they would give up 9 pts for that secondary right or could it be more for the resurrected Geminaes? Because the secondary counts each character model, not unit. This seems very risky to have Celestine in your army.
Not a big deal. She's almost impossible to kill in 5 turns if you're not an idiot about using her.
If anything she becomes a trap for opponents who don't know her rules.
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ClockworkZion wrote: Probably needs an FAQ because I think this is our first book with character units.
The rules specifically spells out that only final deaths count. Guerilla miniatures video is clear enough to read it if you want verification.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
yukishiro1 wrote: Assassinate is at the end of the game, so it doesn't matter how many times you kill the Geminae and how many times they get rezzed, it's 9 points max. And it's definitely 9 points, there's no doubt about that. No FAQ needed. Each character is 3 points, not each character unit.
I really don't think it's much of a risk though; between her healing to full every turn and rezzing a Geminae and character protection and the coming back to life the first time she dies on a 2+ as well, it takes a *lot* to kill her dead for good, to the point where taking assassinate is probably a trap unless you have a bunch of crappy buff characters for them to hoover up too.
Deepstrike her too. If you go second that would mean your opponent would have to kill her 2 times in 3 turns.
Deepstrike her too. If you go second that would mean your opponent would have to kill her 2 times in 3 turns.
Good luck.
It's even harder to kill her than that, because she also qualifies for the strat that pulls her up off the table to be redeployed the following movement phase. Realistically, it's almost impossible for her to die unless you deliberately suicide her.
Deepstrike her too. If you go second that would mean your opponent would have to kill her 2 times in 3 turns.
Good luck.
It's even harder to kill her than that, because she also qualifies for the strat that pulls her up off the table to be redeployed the following movement phase. Realistically, it's almost impossible for her to die unless you deliberately suicide her.
Deepstrike her too. If you go second that would mean your opponent would have to kill her 2 times in 3 turns.
Good luck.
It's even harder to kill her than that, because she also qualifies for the strat that pulls her up off the table to be redeployed the following movement phase. Realistically, it's almost impossible for her to die unless you deliberately suicide her.
Oh, she's also immune to damage one.
Because this is a great book!
Dead Sea called, it wants its salt back.
If typos are the worst we have to legitimately complain about then this book is easily of GW's better written ones hands down.
Deepstrike her too. If you go second that would mean your opponent would have to kill her 2 times in 3 turns.
Good luck.
It's even harder to kill her than that, because she also qualifies for the strat that pulls her up off the table to be redeployed the following movement phase. Realistically, it's almost impossible for her to die unless you deliberately suicide her.
Oh, she's also immune to damage one.
Because this is a great book!
Dead Sea called, it wants its salt back.
If typos are the worst we have to legitimately complain about then this book is easily of GW's better written ones hands down.
Complaining about GW's inability to proofread is totally valid. This is a company worth billions. It's beyond embarrassing that they can't manage to hire a competent proofreader, and it says relevant things about their general competence that they can't manage what organizations tens or hundreds of times smaller than them have no trouble with. You can say it's just errors so who cares, but it really isn't - these are premium products at a premium price tag, there is no excuse for something so simple as not being able to proofread.
GW's ability to proofread (or lack thereof) is irrelevant to a discussion of SISTERS OF BATTLE TACTICS. Please take these side discussions to another thread.
Anyways, what loadouts do we all think are best for the Paragon Warsuits? I'm leaning toward meltas, as those have proven very successful in Sisters lists in the past, and I think the swords are better than the maces despite the lower damage. Playstyle-wise I think we have to think of them as our Terminator-analogs rather than vehicles, and I don't think I'd go for more than one unit in a list to receive the reroll buff from Morvenn.
yukishiro1 wrote: Complaining about GW's inability to proofread is totally valid. This is a company worth billions. It's beyond embarrassing that they can't manage to hire a competent proofreader, and it says relevant things about their general competence that they can't manage what organizations tens or hundreds of times smaller than them have no trouble with. You can say it's just errors so who cares, but it really isn't - these are premium products at a premium price tag, there is no excuse for something so simple as not being able to proofread.
I mean it's valid, but I've seen errors in military documents and they have a budget far and beyond what GW dreams it could have. I've seen professionally published novels by big name authors with spelling errors. This stuff happens even with proofreaders, editors, and budgets far larger thrown at projects than GW allocates to their dev teams.
So yes, complaining is valid, but so is pointing out that it's not really as uncommon for mistakes to slip into nearly every work.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZergSmasher wrote: GW's ability to proofread (or lack thereof) is irrelevant to a discussion of SISTERS OF BATTLE TACTICS. Please take these side discussions to another thread.
Anyways, what loadouts do we all think are best for the Paragon Warsuits? I'm leaning toward meltas, as those have proven very successful in Sisters lists in the past, and I think the swords are better than the maces despite the lower damage. Playstyle-wise I think we have to think of them as our Terminator-analogs rather than vehicles, and I don't think I'd go for more than one unit in a list to receive the reroll buff from Morvenn.
I'd lean towards Heavy Bolters or Flamers myself. Meltas bring them up to 90ppm and being able to start tagging stuff at range seems better for them (flamers would be for more of an ambush bully role).
Or if you're feeling silly, take a flamer and two multi meltas and keep storm bolters on them and then use the Holy Trinity strat.
ZergSmasher wrote: GW's ability to proofread (or lack thereof) is irrelevant to a discussion of SISTERS OF BATTLE TACTICS. Please take these side discussions to another thread.
Anyways, what loadouts do we all think are best for the Paragon Warsuits? I'm leaning toward meltas, as those have proven very successful in Sisters lists in the past, and I think the swords are better than the maces despite the lower damage. Playstyle-wise I think we have to think of them as our Terminator-analogs rather than vehicles, and I don't think I'd go for more than one unit in a list to receive the reroll buff from Morvenn.
Its valid when those failures turn a unit into 240 points per model instead of 240 points for the unit
yukishiro1 wrote: Complaining about GW's inability to proofread is totally valid. This is a company worth billions. It's beyond embarrassing that they can't manage to hire a competent proofreader, and it says relevant things about their general competence that they can't manage what organizations tens or hundreds of times smaller than them have no trouble with. You can say it's just errors so who cares, but it really isn't - these are premium products at a premium price tag, there is no excuse for something so simple as not being able to proofread.
Then don't buy from them, they know they can get away with it because there's really is no competition. They don't have to improve or develop better products. People will keep buying from them like a bunch of animals. I ask you why do they need to improve from their perspective. People will buy regardless of almost anything they do.
I've got a question; does the exorcist's conflagration rockets counts as flame weapons? I was thinking about the secondaries, slay the heretic (destroy one unit with melta, bolt and flame weapon, score one point per each and bonus point for all).
I've been reflecting a lot on this book. Initially I was pretty bummed, but I've come around.
I think that if you're comparing it to Admech or DE, even DG, you have to remember that those books got minimal/no weapon profile changes when the Space Marine book came out, whereas Sisters got changes to heavy bolters, flamers and MM.
If this codex had brought us new MM along with it, I don't think anyone would be feel like the Retributor changes were an issue at all, likewise if we were getting 4 inch range and 1str on all flamers with this book people would be delighted.
40k tank issues and Paragon suits aside, I think it's a really good book.
ZergSmasher wrote: GW's ability to proofread (or lack thereof) is irrelevant to a discussion of SISTERS OF BATTLE TACTICS. Please take these side discussions to another thread.
Anyways, what loadouts do we all think are best for the Paragon Warsuits? I'm leaning toward meltas, as those have proven very successful in Sisters lists in the past, and I think the swords are better than the maces despite the lower damage. Playstyle-wise I think we have to think of them as our Terminator-analogs rather than vehicles, and I don't think I'd go for more than one unit in a list to receive the reroll buff from Morvenn.
Its valid when those failures turn a unit into 240 points per model instead of 240 points for the unit
Play PL or Crusade, and laugh. They're probably a steal at 13PL for the unit of 3 if we're really going to operate under the assumption that they start at 720 points for a squad of 3.
Won't ever touch PL. I think tying certain mechanics to PL for matched play is a horrible idea and completely soured on it with my first game of 8th. Tested the beta-dex against Slaanesh daemons. Mission ended up being meat grinder and I was the attacker because I had almost double his PL despite is both playing 1500 points.
If my opponent had played the mission instead of the game, he would have won handily because I don't think I ever could have caught his units and my only means of victory per the mission was to destroy all of his units.
ZergSmasher wrote: GW's ability to proofread (or lack thereof) is irrelevant to a discussion of SISTERS OF BATTLE TACTICS. Please take these side discussions to another thread.
Anyways, what loadouts do we all think are best for the Paragon Warsuits? I'm leaning toward meltas, as those have proven very successful in Sisters lists in the past, and I think the swords are better than the maces despite the lower damage. Playstyle-wise I think we have to think of them as our Terminator-analogs rather than vehicles, and I don't think I'd go for more than one unit in a list to receive the reroll buff from Morvenn.
Multi-Meltas on several squads could be interesting in a walker heavy army...
Vahl will swamp Tourneys, then 100% be hit hard with the nerf hammer, repeatedly, within months, probably to the point she ends up not worth taking at all (because boy is it hard to properly price a unit with absolutely no downsides with which you can use to justify adjusting the final point cost downward a bit, including disadvantages like being limited to a overall lower strength Order/subfaction). Meanwhile Retributors losing both the Strategem AND not being able to move and fire Heavy Weapons without penalty (which any Devastator-style unit should have, IMO) can now only be compensated by point costs after the Codex release, and they are already down to 12 points per model, while the writers are extremely unlikely to change the price of something as common as "Multi-Melta" because it affects too many units in the Codex, so what is going to happen, another singular -1 point drop per model?
Or the poor Exorcist. It would have to drop a huge amount of points to compensate for:
1) -1 Toughness, despite being a very expensive direct fire tank
2) -1 Nerf to AP 3) - No CORE, so pretty much most Aura buffs being out.
Will that happen? Probably not, because GW seems to be overvaluating battle tanks a lot this Edition and not consider how much of a nerf not being CORE is. We'll probably get like a -5 or -10 point cost adjustment and that's it.
Meanwhile Seraphim can be happy they have Hand Flamers as an option (and that they are getting buffed with S4 and the previously Ebon Chalice Strat. becoming general issue), because boy would they be dead without it.
As an outsider (one who started to collect and build sisters but hasn't had a chance to play a game with them), I thought the whole Retributor move and shoot and boosted range strat was just a crutch anyway. There was no reason it should exist, it's just a devastator unit that even comes with a second cherub.
Feel the same about the Exorcist too. It's a rhino chassis so T7 seems correct. Missiles are generally AP-2. So, it's pretty much spot on....but it does need a points drop for sure.
Vehicles existing in a Multi-melta/Dark lance world just doesn't make sense competitively anymore, which is a shame, especially if T7. This will only be worse when Craftworld brightlances get the same treatment. MMs need a points kick and DL should have been D6 with min damage of 3. Automatically doing 4-6 damage with such a cheap weapon is a little bonkers, especially since the platforms are generally hard to kill too.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing the codex with a set of fresh eyes and seeing which way to go with my sisters. Regardless of abilities, I will still roll with the 2 Immolators and single Exorcist I have built simply because they are some of my favourite sister models.
Vahl will swamp Tourneys, then 100% be hit hard with the nerf hammer, repeatedly, within months, probably to the point she ends up not worth taking at all (because boy is it hard to properly price a unit with absolutely no downsides with which you can use to justify adjusting the final point cost downward a bit, including disadvantages like being limited to a overall lower strength Order/subfaction). Meanwhile Retributors losing both the Strategem AND not being able to move and fire Heavy Weapons without penalty (which any Devastator-style unit should have, IMO) can now only be compensated by point costs after the Codex release, and they are already down to 12 points per model, while the writers are extremely unlikely to change the price of something as common as "Multi-Melta" because it affects too many units in the Codex, so what is going to happen, another singular -1 point drop per model?
Or the poor Exorcist. It would have to drop a huge amount of points to compensate for:
1) -1 Toughness, despite being a very expensive direct fire tank
2) -1 Nerf to AP 3) - No CORE, so pretty much most Aura buffs being out.
Will that happen? Probably not, because GW seems to be overvaluating battle tanks a lot this Edition and not consider how much of a nerf not being CORE is. We'll probably get like a -5 or -10 point cost adjustment and that's it.
Meanwhile Seraphim can be happy they have Hand Flamers as an option (and that they are getting buffed with S4 and the previously Ebon Chalice Strat. becoming general issue), because boy would they be dead without it.
As an outsider (one who started to collect and build sisters but hasn't had a chance to play a game with them), I thought the whole Retributor move and shoot and boosted range strat was just a crutch anyway. There was no reason it should exist, it's just a devastator unit that even comes with a second cherub.
Feel the same about the Exorcist too. It's a rhino chassis so T7 seems correct. Missiles are generally AP-2. So, it's pretty much spot on....but it does need a points drop for sure.
Vehicles existing in a Multi-melta/Dark lance world just doesn't make sense competitively anymore, which is a shame, especially if T7. This will only be worse when Craftworld brightlances get the same treatment. MMs need a points kick and DL should have been D6 with min damage of 3. Automatically doing 4-6 damage with such a cheap weapon is a little bonkers, especially since the platforms are generally hard to kill too.
Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing the codex with a set of fresh eyes and seeing which way to go with my sisters. Regardless of abilities, I will still roll with the 2 Immolators and single Exorcist I have built simply because they are some of my favourite sister models.
The Exo was Rhino+, hence T8. That loss is one of the very few great crimes of the new models.
The missiles are a Melta weapon, the loss of that is a loss of character. Pehaps one we brought on ourselves, but one that GW has been happy to push.
The Exo was originally 13/11/10 with S8, AP 1 missiles.
The index version of it was T8 and the missiles were AP -4. The 8E codex brought the missile AP down to -3. Now it's lost 1T, 1W, 1AP, and the ability to re-roll its shots for an (in my opinion) inferior indirect fire strat that can only be used on one Exorcist per turn that should just be part of the unit if they're trying to turn it into a Whirlwind wanna-be from a main battle tank.
Taikishi wrote: The Exo was originally 13/11/10 with S8, AP 1 missiles.
The index version of it was T8 and the missiles were AP -4. The 8E codex brought the missile AP down to -3. Now it's lost 1T, 1W, 1AP, and the ability to re-roll its shots for an (in my opinion) inferior indirect fire strat that can only be used on one Exorcist per turn that should just be part of the unit if they're trying to turn it into a Whirlwind wanna-be from a main battle tank.
It was only 3+ save (part of why it was only 125pts) but everything else was correct.
Including that new devastating refrain is stupid and worse than old devastating refrain.
In the 8th codex before the melta changes people were taking 3 of them (myself included) and they ALWAYS did work. Now you can't really even justify taking one because it's just gonna bounce off of saves and die in 2 hits.
If they wanted to nerf it this hard AND keep it 180pts, they should have made it ALWAYS ignore LoS. As it stands it really should be around the 140pt mark.
The thing is, I would have been mostly fine with this if the castigator had been any good. As much as it sucks, we'd at least still have a valid long range shooting option. But NOPE, the castigator is even worse than the Exorcist for almost the same points.
yukishiro1 wrote: Complaining about GW's inability to proofread is totally valid. This is a company worth billions. It's beyond embarrassing that they can't manage to hire a competent proofreader, and it says relevant things about their general competence that they can't manage what organizations tens or hundreds of times smaller than them have no trouble with. You can say it's just errors so who cares, but it really isn't - these are premium products at a premium price tag, there is no excuse for something so simple as not being able to proofread.
Then don't buy from them, they know they can get away with it because there's really is no competition. They don't have to improve or develop better products. People will keep buying from them like a bunch of animals. I ask you why do they need to improve from their perspective. People will buy regardless of almost anything they do.
You act like just because you still buy the codex crap like this has no effect on GW's profits.
I buy sisters of battle stuff the way normal people buy electricity or water or a cellphone plan. When the plastic launched I bought 2500$ worth of stuff day one and have added to that since because I loved the models and loved the codex.
This time I bought the Codex, the battle cards, Morvenn, 1 box of Paragons, 2 boxes of sacrosants, and a box of dice. That will be everything I purchase from this release. I refuse to buy the castigator, Paragons are mostly because I like the models, Sacrosants because they're the one decent thing that's new.
My original purchase plan? Morvenn, 3 Boxes of Paragons, 4 boxes of Sacrosants, a Dogmata, Banner Lady, A Castigator, and probably Stern because I never bothered until now and figured she was gonna see changes.
So yes, even though I'm still invested enough in sisters to buy the new stuff I like and the codex I need to keep playing, I'm not a chimp. This codex cost GW probably close to 500$ of revenue from me and who knows how much down the line when I never walk into a games shop and think 'well I did want to try that 30 Zephyrim list...'
Taikishi wrote: The Exo was originally 13/11/10 with S8, AP 1 missiles.
The index version of it was T8 and the missiles were AP -4. The 8E codex brought the missile AP down to -3. Now it's lost 1T, 1W, 1AP, and the ability to re-roll its shots for an (in my opinion) inferior indirect fire strat that can only be used on one Exorcist per turn that should just be part of the unit if they're trying to turn it into a Whirlwind wanna-be from a main battle tank.
It's not as good and it uses your once-per-phase reroll but the CP reroll can still be used on number of shots. And in argent shroud, if you were to run that way, you're not lacking for rerolls. Obv picking and choosing the dice to reroll is far better, but for 1-1-1 or 2-1-1 then it's not really that different.
And I haven't counted it, but if there are the same number of stratagems in this book as the old one, Its nice to have something that doesn't (somewhat) double up with a core strat.
ZergSmasher wrote: GW's ability to proofread (or lack thereof) is irrelevant to a discussion of SISTERS OF BATTLE TACTICS. Please take these side discussions to another thread.
Anyways, what loadouts do we all think are best for the Paragon Warsuits? I'm leaning toward meltas, as those have proven very successful in Sisters lists in the past, and I think the swords are better than the maces despite the lower damage. Playstyle-wise I think we have to think of them as our Terminator-analogs rather than vehicles, and I don't think I'd go for more than one unit in a list to receive the reroll buff from Morvenn.
Its valid when those failures turn a unit into 240 points per model instead of 240 points for the unit
Play PL or Crusade, and laugh. They're probably a steal at 13PL for the unit of 3 if we're really going to operate under the assumption that they start at 720 points for a squad of 3.
I've heard people say it's only a typo in the English version of the book, so it might have been caught when the book was being translated, but after they sent the English run off to print.
Oh, I totally understand that it is a typo, and no one in my playgroup would ever charge 240 points a model. I bet you'd have a TO hard pressed to run them at 240/ea unless they had some sort of "I don't really like that faction" or "I will operate 100% RAW and the books are as immutable as the bible" type outlooks. I'm merely pointing out how normal people in the real world would look at that and laugh at the obviousness of it (they wrote 240 because it is min/max 3, therefore the unit's entry cost is quite literally 240... no need to individually point them because there's no way that'll be needed). But for whatever reason here on the internets, the conversation shifts to boogeymen and strawmen that are going to charge you 720+ points for a squad of Paragons. And then pointing out the absurdity of that 720+ point unit only costs 13PL in narrative or crusade games that tally on PL... so clearly GW has some sort of nefarious bias to force people to play on PL instead of points.
I'll admit, I still bought in pretty hard, but did so knowing my relationship with 40k is changing. I'm a hardcore competitive player, but I know GWs cycle of lunacy means todays garbage becomes tomorrow's OP if one can wait long enough. I love the new models aesthetically, so someday they'll get played.
That said, talking to most of my competitive friends and some content creators, it really does feel like Sisters will have a couple fairly decent builds, but won't make a dent in shifting the Ad-Mech hellscape tournaments are about to enter.
yukishiro1 wrote: Complaining about GW's inability to proofread is totally valid. This is a company worth billions. It's beyond embarrassing that they can't manage to hire a competent proofreader, and it says relevant things about their general competence that they can't manage what organizations tens or hundreds of times smaller than them have no trouble with. You can say it's just errors so who cares, but it really isn't - these are premium products at a premium price tag, there is no excuse for something so simple as not being able to proofread.
I mean it's valid, but I've seen errors in military documents and they have a budget far and beyond what GW dreams it could have. I've seen professionally published novels by big name authors with spelling errors. This stuff happens even with proofreaders, editors, and budgets far larger thrown at projects than GW allocates to their dev teams.
So yes, complaining is valid, but so is pointing out that it's not really as uncommon for mistakes to slip into nearly every work.
Not like this. These are technical mistakes in technical documents. I draft technical documents for a living (for an organization with far fewer resources than GW has). I wouldn't still have a job if I kept putting out crap this riddled with substantive errors.
We aren't talking a missing or doubled preposition here. These aren't typos. They're substantive errors, caused by a lack of proper, professional proofreading. These errors don't slip through a decent proofreading process, at least not more than once in a blue moon. That they keep slipping through in document after document shows that GW is not meeting basic professional standards. If I had to guess, the basic problem is that the people doing the proofreading don't actually understand the content they are proofreading - so they catch typos, but not substantive errors. This is a common mistake organizations that aren't used to doing technical proofreading make, the sort of thing that you can forgive when it's five dudes in their grandma's basement, but not when it's a multinational company worth billions.
yukishiro1 wrote: Complaining about GW's inability to proofread is totally valid. This is a company worth billions. It's beyond embarrassing that they can't manage to hire a competent proofreader, and it says relevant things about their general competence that they can't manage what organizations tens or hundreds of times smaller than them have no trouble with. You can say it's just errors so who cares, but it really isn't - these are premium products at a premium price tag, there is no excuse for something so simple as not being able to proofread.
I mean it's valid, but I've seen errors in military documents and they have a budget far and beyond what GW dreams it could have. I've seen professionally published novels by big name authors with spelling errors. This stuff happens even with proofreaders, editors, and budgets far larger thrown at projects than GW allocates to their dev teams.
So yes, complaining is valid, but so is pointing out that it's not really as uncommon for mistakes to slip into nearly every work.
Not like this. These are technical mistakes in technical documents. I draft technical documents for a living (for an organization with far fewer resources than GW has). I wouldn't still have a job if I kept putting out crap this riddled with substantive errors.
We aren't talking a missing or doubled preposition here. These aren't typos. They're substantive errors, caused by a lack of proper, professional proofreading. These errors don't slip through a decent proofreading process, at least not more than once in a blue moon. That they keep slipping through in document after document shows that GW is not meeting basic professional standards. If I had to guess, the basic problem is that the people doing the proofreading don't actually understand the content they are proofreading - so they catch typos, but not substantive errors. This is a common mistake organizations that aren't used to doing technical proofreading make, the sort of thing that you can forgive when it's five dudes in their grandma's basement, but not when it's a multinational company worth billions.
The old US Army PT regulation has a paragraph about wearing knee high socks to prevent shin splints. Trust me when I say GW is not special and people need to stop pretending that they're somehow a unique example of this kind of thing.
yukishiro1 wrote: Complaining about GW's inability to proofread is totally valid. This is a company worth billions. It's beyond embarrassing that they can't manage to hire a competent proofreader, and it says relevant things about their general competence that they can't manage what organizations tens or hundreds of times smaller than them have no trouble with. You can say it's just errors so who cares, but it really isn't - these are premium products at a premium price tag, there is no excuse for something so simple as not being able to proofread.
I mean it's valid, but I've seen errors in military documents and they have a budget far and beyond what GW dreams it could have. I've seen professionally published novels by big name authors with spelling errors. This stuff happens even with proofreaders, editors, and budgets far larger thrown at projects than GW allocates to their dev teams.
So yes, complaining is valid, but so is pointing out that it's not really as uncommon for mistakes to slip into nearly every work.
Not like this. These are technical mistakes in technical documents. I draft technical documents for a living (for an organization with far fewer resources than GW has). I wouldn't still have a job if I kept putting out crap this riddled with substantive errors.
We aren't talking a missing or doubled preposition here. These aren't typos. They're substantive errors, caused by a lack of proper, professional proofreading. These errors don't slip through a decent proofreading process, at least not more than once in a blue moon. That they keep slipping through in document after document shows that GW is not meeting basic professional standards. If I had to guess, the basic problem is that the people doing the proofreading don't actually understand the content they are proofreading - so they catch typos, but not substantive errors. This is a common mistake organizations that aren't used to doing technical proofreading make, the sort of thing that you can forgive when it's five dudes in their grandma's basement, but not when it's a multinational company worth billions.
The old US Army PT regulation has a paragraph about wearing knee high socks to prevent shin splints. Trust me when I say GW is not special and people need to stop pretending that they're somehow a unique example of this kind of thing.
Not for nothing but that isn't arguing GW is fine, that's arguing the Army is inept.
yukishiro1 wrote: Complaining about GW's inability to proofread is totally valid. This is a company worth billions. It's beyond embarrassing that they can't manage to hire a competent proofreader, and it says relevant things about their general competence that they can't manage what organizations tens or hundreds of times smaller than them have no trouble with. You can say it's just errors so who cares, but it really isn't - these are premium products at a premium price tag, there is no excuse for something so simple as not being able to proofread.
I mean it's valid, but I've seen errors in military documents and they have a budget far and beyond what GW dreams it could have. I've seen professionally published novels by big name authors with spelling errors. This stuff happens even with proofreaders, editors, and budgets far larger thrown at projects than GW allocates to their dev teams.
So yes, complaining is valid, but so is pointing out that it's not really as uncommon for mistakes to slip into nearly every work.
Not like this. These are technical mistakes in technical documents. I draft technical documents for a living (for an organization with far fewer resources than GW has). I wouldn't still have a job if I kept putting out crap this riddled with substantive errors.
We aren't talking a missing or doubled preposition here. These aren't typos. They're substantive errors, caused by a lack of proper, professional proofreading. These errors don't slip through a decent proofreading process, at least not more than once in a blue moon. That they keep slipping through in document after document shows that GW is not meeting basic professional standards. If I had to guess, the basic problem is that the people doing the proofreading don't actually understand the content they are proofreading - so they catch typos, but not substantive errors. This is a common mistake organizations that aren't used to doing technical proofreading make, the sort of thing that you can forgive when it's five dudes in their grandma's basement, but not when it's a multinational company worth billions.
The old US Army PT regulation has a paragraph about wearing knee high socks to prevent shin splints. Trust me when I say GW is not special and people need to stop pretending that they're somehow a unique example of this kind of thing.
Not for nothing but that isn't arguing GW is fine, that's arguing the Army is inept.
I'm not saying GW is "fine", I'm saying GW is not some special snowflake of screwing up things that shouldn't get screwed up and people are blowing it way out of proportion. I swear GW could miss a period somewhere and people would write a hundred page thread about GW being intentionally bad at grammar.
You're arguing a ridiculous straw man ("GW is the only organization that makes errors in its documents") against someone who literally does this for a living and is telling you you are wrong, these errors are very much preventable, saying to "just trust you," because you know better because you were in the army. I'm not sure further useful conversation can be had here.
yukishiro1 wrote: You're arguing a ridiculous straw man ("GW is the only organization that makes errors in its documents") against someone who literally does this for a living and is telling you you are wrong, these errors are very much preventable, saying to "just trust you," because you know better because you were in the army. I'm not sure further useful conversation can be had here.
It's not much of a strawman when people on this very site claim that GW is somehow above and beyond all other companies in terms of errors. I'm not creating the strawman, I'm arguing that the strawman that GW is somehow "too big" to make mistakes is wrong. We recognize the problems, let's move on to the actual topic of how to play the army. Seriously, if you want a salt thread, 40k General is a better spot for it.
Of course GW isn't too big to make mistakes. Nobody is too big to make mistakes. Making mistakes comes from a lack of process, not size. The reason GW's size is relevant is because it clearly has the resources to avoid making these mistakes if it cared enough. It's not five guys in grandma's basement who can't afford a technical proofreader.
Technical errors of this sort do not make it through competent technical proofreading.
Serious errors in the codex we're talking about is on topic. If you don't want to engage, just don't engage. Trying to dismiss it as just "salt" shows you are the one who is trying to derail the conversation.
"I need plastic models. I need my Exorcist to shoot out of line of sight. I need a jump pack canoness. I need 'terminator' tier sisters. Dominions not getting the move in a transport should have never been done."
GW:
"Your prayers have been answered."
Sisters players:
"That's not good enough. The models don't look like I WANTED them to look. My Exorcist has been balanced for having access to potent rules. Celestine deep striking is not a Jump Canoness. Sacrosancts ONLY have 1W. Anti-tank weapons destroy 'vehicle' class paragons. I can't out-aggro Drukharu/Mechanicus. Your book has typos. But here's my money..."
Like this has to be the most spoiled player base... or the most oblivious one. The amount of desired stuff given to this community, like DIRECTLY ASKED FOR AND RECEIVED and then to receive it so gracelessly. Just, unbelievable.
See, that is an example of an actual off topic "salt" post: just a random rant full of personal attacks towards anyone who the poster disagrees with.
Please try to stay on topic. We're talking about the new book here, not about your feelings towards people who have a different opinion on the new book than you do.
Hit too close to home? I figured while we're ranting on things like hiring proofreaders and cancelling typos we could revisit what has actually been delivered to this player base over the past 18 months. It is much more on topic than any of the vitriol coming from the same old people who make me wonder why they even play this faction if it is so terrible.
No, personal attacks on other posters are never on topic, as clearly stated in the thread on forum rules. If you can't resist the temptation to personally attack people who you disagree with ("spoiled," "graceless" "oblivious", etc), please don't post at all; all it does is pull threads off topic and create an unpleasant environment.
In the interest of not derailing things further, I'll get off the soapbox now; whether you take the point to heart is up to you, and if you're not going to, repeating it probably won't get anywhere.
"I need plastic models. I need my Exorcist to shoot out of line of sight. I need a jump pack canoness. I need 'terminator' tier sisters. Dominions not getting the move in a transport should have never been done."
GW:
"Your prayers have been answered."
Sisters players:
"That's not good enough. The models don't look like I WANTED them to look. My Exorcist has been balanced for having access to potent rules. Celestine deep striking is not a Jump Canoness. Sacrosancts ONLY have 1W. Anti-tank weapons destroy 'vehicle' class paragons. I can't out-aggro Drukharu/Mechanicus. Your book has typos. But here's my money..."
Like this has to be the most spoiled player base... or the most oblivious one. The amount of desired stuff given to this community, like DIRECTLY ASKED FOR AND RECEIVED and then to receive it so gracelessly. Just, unbelievable.
I hope this post is just an extremely bad joke, because it shouldn't even be possible to be that much of a Games Workshop fanboy completely detached from any reason and reality to believe even just half of that nonsense(in which fething Twilight Zone is the Exorcist balanced now, what funny stuff needs someone to smoke to call Celestine especially the new one a Jump Pack Canoness, what the hell have plastic models to do with the new codex, etc...), hell this would be even in a Space Marines thread just delusional.
Tanks in general are bad this edition. Honestly we probably just need a lot of people to email the 40kFAQ email complaining about how fragile tanks are and hope GW gives them a mid edition buff at this point like they did Marines.
"I need plastic models. I need my Exorcist to shoot out of line of sight. I need a jump pack canoness. I need 'terminator' tier sisters. Dominions not getting the move in a transport should have never been done."
GW:
"Your prayers have been answered."
Sisters players:
"That's not good enough. The models don't look like I WANTED them to look. My Exorcist has been balanced for having access to potent rules. Celestine deep striking is not a Jump Canoness. Sacrosancts ONLY have 1W. Anti-tank weapons destroy 'vehicle' class paragons. I can't out-aggro Drukharu/Mechanicus. Your book has typos. But here's my money..."
Like this has to be the most spoiled player base... or the most oblivious one. The amount of desired stuff given to this community, like DIRECTLY ASKED FOR AND RECEIVED and then to receive it so gracelessly. Just, unbelievable.
Except that isn't good enough.
An exorcist getting indirect fire via a strat isn't indirect fire.
Celestine isn't a canoness.
I don't recall anyone complaning about sacrosancts only having one wound, at least not with any community support.
Anti-tank weapons do destroy paragons, at least on paper.
Less about out aggroing, and more about so much stuff getting dunked with the new codex. Stuff that was a major part, but not really a broken aspect.
It's less about people being spoiled, and more about people trivializing legitimate complaints. I have issues with the BSS weapon alotment changes. Because it was characterful. It made the sisters seem like a faction that had access to the resources for that sort of weapons deployment.
And to bring it back again, stuff people asked for WAS NOT RECEIVED.
Tanks are bad in 9th, but they went out of their way to make the exorcist worse, which is just weird. It feels like they couldn't decide whether to make it artillery or not and ended up creating a frankenstein's monster that isn't good at either role.
And that's the crux of the problem. 8th Codex is one of the best. Partially to do with the Imperium arsenal upgrade to kick off 9th, partially to do with it was just a pretty solid book overall with some outliers that were being pushed up another rung.
"Except, that isn't good enough."
There's a lot of really good things in the codex, but man, the sentiment is that GW took a huge steaming dump in the middle of our living rooms, lol. I happen to be the masochist that plays both Eldar and Sisters, and have for quite a many years. My Eldar are languishing because I've been looking for something, anything, to be excited about. I look at the range trying to get inspired... and the immediate "meh" falls upon me because of how stagnant the line is for both modeling AND playing.
It is Christmas over here, and all we can do is clutch pearls and complain about how things were better in the good-old codex?
I will defend everyone on the sacrosants part, I'm the only person who's said anything down on them.
And even then I'm only saying 'I think mortal wounds is this unit's obvious weakness so I'm thinking they play best in the subfactions that have access to defence against mortals.'
So with the rules floating out in the ether I've started looking at how to tackle playing the army, and decided to take a deep dive into the book and think about the roles of the different parts of the book and how those things could be used. So less a tiered ranking and more of "how can this be best used" thing to get a feel for each order leans, as well as a look at blessings, warlord traits, hymns, relics, and sacred rites to get a better idea how to lay a foundation for our armies going forward.
Order Convictions Order of Our Martyred Lady: Pairs best with mechanized Sisters carrying 10 model units to gain miracle dice from losing the transports and have enough models to be able to better gain their +1 to hit bonus (sadly this is probably the worst conviction if you like setting heretics on fire due to how it buffs to-hit rolls exclusively). There is some argument for large bricks of Battle Sisters as well but either way it's encouraged to run a lot of characters to better use their unique stratagem and gain extra Miracle Dice over the course of the game. One of the stronger orders for the new Acts of Faith secondary as well.
Order of the Valorous Heart: Still our strongest defensive choice. Pairs well with Paragons and Tanks thanks to the way it negates some of the perks of mid-strength AP weapons like Autocannons, but it will attract MSU builds as well since the higher defense will allow for small units to survive longer on the table. Dominions and Retributors will both enjoy benefits from the stratagem as well. All around still a solid choice for a lot of playstyles since it doesn't really push you one way or another.
Order of the Bloody Rose: Lends itself best to the melee units (both past and present). Lost some teeth in regards to pistols to likely balance it further, and now only smashing hard in the first turn of combat before evaporating they'll hit like glass cannons, meaning that melee will need to be planned out to prevent from losing units in poor trades. Still one of the strongest Convictions since you can clear objectives more effectively with them, but less of an autopick.
Order of the Ebon Chalice: A stronger choice than the last edition since you can tailor your Sacred Rites choices to your opponent, plus they can throw the most 6s out for Miracle Dice of any Order. As a bonus their Warlord trait lets you recycle your CP 1/3 of the time. Also a great choice for flamer heavy Sisters lists thanks to their stratagem that can easily tag 3 Mortal Wounds everytime you use it.
Order of the Argent Shroud: Do you like Retributors? Dominons? Heavy weapons? Sprinting like you're a Naruto cosplayer? This is definitely the order for you. Battle Sisters are best used in MSUs of 5 with a multi-melta to use both halves of their conviction, but it'll work with Multi-melta Retributors, Storm Bolter Dominions (counts as stationary after sprinting up close to get that rapid fire bubble). Basically the more you like to shoot the better this is. Arguably great for Castigators, Exorcists, and even Immolators, but tanks remain squishy so expect to end up trading them rather quickly.
Order of the Sacred Rose: Good for two things: large units and farming Miracle Dice (you basically double your Miracle dice over the course of the game), and ignoring Combat Attrition means taking large units for taking over objectives more easily fit well together. Provides the least to MSU units and tanks directly (other than the extra Miracle Dice), this is a strong pick if you want to use the Acts of Faith secondary that pairs well with larger units. The warlord trait is great for recycling low number Miracle Dice by using them as 6s as well, but it also lets units fall back and shoot which is great for how the Conviction makes it easier to step back from combat and stay alive. And speaking of shooting, the stratagem pairs well with massed shooting as well, which fits well with massed bolt guns, lending them well to taking large bricks of Sisters.
Minoris Convictions: Honestly this is where the book is the weakest. Three of the convictions are tied to the holy trinity but can't be taken together, there is no ability to recycle or gain extra Miracle Dice, and there are no Minoris Convictions that increase mobility. Heck, they didn't even bother to fill both pages. Unless you need a specific trait for a small patrol detachment to attach to your larger army (say, Rites of Fire for the +4" flamers, or Raging Fervour for counting as half range for melta weapons if they're assault and pistols (or 18" or less range for Multi Meltas).
Blessings of the Faithful Word of the Emperor: Great for melee focused armies, or just supporting a single melee unit thanks to the fight last ability, and the ability to turn off invulnerable saves for a turn is incredibly strong if you like to ask "will it blend?". Due to the short range of the abilities though this is not great for shooting heavy armies. While not making the bearer better at combat, it's a good support piece meaning this will likely show up on models like Palantines who want to be near combat, even if they're not really contributing much themselves.
Rapturous Blows: Do you want a Canoness who can cave a Hive Tyrant's head in like Canoness Paxedes? Well this won't quite help your Canoness do that, but she will smack things harder in melee. Paired best with a Blessed Blade (bringing you to S6, -3 AP, 3 dmg) or a chainsword (S4, AP, 2 dmg with a bonus attack). If you're using the Limited Edition (to soon be the started set Cannoness) it'll turn your power sword into a Blessed Blade, but in all other cases take the Blessed Blade instead. The Miraculious effect goes bast on anything you can stack large numbers of attacks on that has the <Order> core keyword, so Repentia can make a good escort for your Canoness. A good trait to take for a Cannoness with a more defensive relic or a ranged relic as well since this blessing can't stack with melee relics.
Divine Deliverance: Great for turning off key auras from opposing character models and that's about it. The miracle is situational since ignoring Combat Attrition is so common that forcing a single model to flee isn't particularly useful most of the time. That said, the Miracle doesn't require you to be near an enemy unit so it has situational utility at least.
Emperor's Grace: Great for making a defensive oriented Cannoness. Pair with the Mantle of Ophelia to never take more than 1 damage per failed save to keep your Cannoness around for a lot longer than your opponent wants. The Miraclous Ability can be great for messing with an opponent who has access to a lot of re-rolls (namely Space Marines), and can tag multiple units which makes for a great way to take some of the lethality of your opponent's army. Pair with Valorous Heart for extra defensive trolling.
Righteous Judgement: Boom. Headshot. Meet the sniper Cannoness. Great for picking off characters hiding behind units she can help take the buff out of the opponent's army. Consider running with a Condemnor Boltgun if you have a lot of psykers in your meta to do an easy 3 Mortal Wounds even when they're behind a screen, or the Redemption Relic so you can tag the psyker and the unit he's behind at the same time with an S8, AP-3, D2 plasma shot. It's not a lot of damage, but chip damage is always useful.
Blinding Radience: Another good defensive blessing. The always on effect means it's a little safer to let your Canoness or Palantine out into the open, but the miracle can be a real boon to dealing with both shooting and melee. Honestly it's hard to recommend where to use this because the answer is basically "everywhere".
Warlord Traits Inspiring Orator: great for sneaking onto a Dogmata or a Dialogus as it increases the range of their hymns and other auras. Slightly nerfed as it doesn't work on abilities (only works on abilities used in the Command Phase) that are always on, so less useful on the Cannoness.
Righteous Rage: full re-roll to hit and wound rolls for melee attacks are always handy for any Canoness who likes turning things into a fine paste. An autotake for any melee focused Canoness.
Executor of Heretics: Situational at best. Only really good when dealing with factions who can't negate combat attrition.
Beacon of Faith: a free command die for your warlord's personal use is great for the Acts of Faith secondary as Miracle Dice are a little harder to acquire in this codex than before, plus if you have Sacred Rose as your Conviction using it allows you to generate a new Miracle Die on a 4+ you can add to your pool.
Indomitable Belief: great for metas with high AP weapons running around, or for keeping your tanks alive since it means they'll ignore 1/3 of the wounds inflicted. Best on a support character who is already handing out buffs like a Dogmata or Imagifier, especially if you know AP is going to be an issue.
Pure of Will: the usefulness of this one will come down to how prevelant Thousand Sons and Grey Knights become in the coming months, but it can be a nice utility option to sub in on a second character via stratagem as needed. Doesn't stack with the Minoris Conviction for +3 to Deny the Witch tests though so no, we'll never have access to a 6+D6 deny attempt.
Shield Bearer (Our Martyred Lady): Honestly not a bad trait. -1 damage (min) for your warlord is a great way to keep them alive, and if she's killing things you gain an automatic 6 on a Miracle Dice. Likewise she takes the OML trait of gaining Miracle dice from losing units up a notch by making them 6s as well. A real strong synergy for OML armies that means this trait will see a lot of use for anyone who prefers to run OML.
Impervious to Pain (Valorous Heart): Free healing a wound when you perform Acts of Faith and a 5+ FNP effect for all wounds (not just mortals like the rest of the order) means she'll be sticking around for a while. You can't stack this with the Emperor's Grace blessing so best kept on two seperate characters, but a great way to keep your Warlord around buffing your units.
Blazing Ire (Bloody Rose): The other melee focused warlord trait, only locked to Blood Rose. A bonus attack and being able to charge after advancing puts this one best in the hands of "Becky with the Good Blade" to have a Canoness who swings Beneficence with a minimum of 9 attacks in the first round of combat and up to 12 attacks if there are at least 6 enemy models near her when she gets stuck in (10 and 13 attacks if you have someone pop War Hymn on her as well). If you like to Rip and Tear, or just want to run keep running Becky in the current edition this is an automatic pick for Blood Rose canoness everywhere.
Terribly Knowledge (Ebon Chalice): Never have to suffer not having a 6 in your Miracle Dice poll at the start of the game and keeping 1/3 of your command points is incredibly handy. I wouldn't take this on my Warlord, but more likely on a support character so the warlord could have better options, but worth having in every Ebon Chalice list.
Selfless Heroism (Argent Shroud): 6" heroic intervention and a fight first mechanic in an army that buffs MSU shooting? Probably stick this on the Dogmata and give her the fight twice hymn (and you should be running a Dogmata in Argent Shroud since she allows you to shoot and take actions at the same time allowing you to crank your efficiency even higher) otherwise I just don't see it being used much compared to other options.
Light of the Divine (Sacred Rose): Allowing you to turn weak Miracle Dice into free 6s whenever your Warlord needs one is a great boon, especially since you can then get a free Miracle Dice back on a 4+ after spending that one, but the fall back and shoot is probably the strongest part of this warlord trait since it allows units like Battle Sisters to get out of combat and fight more on their own terms instead of fist fighting something like an Ork.
Hymns War Hymn: Every priest model has this one for free and despite the change to only triggering it on a 3+ it's arguably improved from before now that you can use it on a unit on 6" and they keep the +1 attack until the start of your next command phase. Use it on Repentia or Celestian Sacroscants to bring them to 3 attacks base, Paragon Warsuits or Zephrym to bring them to 4 attacks base, Arco-flaggellants to bring them to 3 attacks base (which you can then multiply by 3 via strat to have them swinging with nine attacks each, take a unit of 10 and drown someone in 90 attacks), or just use it on Becky and let her get up to 13 attacks on her own. Even Morvenn Vahl appreciates the bonus attack as it brings her up to 12 attacks when sweeping with her spear (and then she can fight twice and do 12 more). Basically put a priest of some kind in every list just for this alone. You will get mileage out of it because it just helps make everything better.
Refrain of Blazing Piety: D3 Mortal wounds to a enemy unit within 12" and visible to the bearer (and an auto 3 to Chaos keyword models) just by rolling a 3+? We may not get psykers but this is definitely a fun one to have in your back pocket to throw around. A must take in Chaos heavy metas as well.
Chorus of Spiritual Fortitude: Dealing with a lot of psychic powers in your meta? Tired of being debuffed, or having your invul turned off? Congrats, now you can ignore them by rolling a single 3+! Not only that, the unit you buff with this can't be affected by any psychci powers until the start of your next command phase meaning it's a great way to shut down psyker combos aimed at your key units (doesn't work on tanks though).
Psalm of Righteous Smiting: Honestly I'd only recommend this one for the Dogmata since it gives +1 attack, improves the AP of melee weapons by 1 and lets you fight twice. For her that means she's attacking 4 times (5 if she's Bloody Rose and it's the first round of combat) at S5, AP-3, 1 dmg, and then she gets to swing again. Not bad if you want to smash stuff, but not great either. Hilarious if you also get a War Hymn off on her as well (bringing her to 6 attacks if she's Bloody Rose and it's the first round to combat, and letting her attack a second time), but I wouldn't use this combo for more than a bit of fun honestly.
Litany of Enduring Faith: +1 to your Shield of Faith save is not bad and you can stack this with Indomitable Belief to bring a unit to a 4++ Shield of Faith save. Probably going to be used most on Repentia, but if you like bricks of Sisters and aren't Valorous Heart (because VH needs to be hit with AP-3 to start feeling a real pinch) effectively negating anything over AP1 on a block of 20 Sisters this way isn't bad. Best used for something you need to really anchor an objective, or to keep your Paragon Warsuits alive.
Verse of Holy Piety: Bonus Sacred Rites are never bad since this lets you flex a unit as needed any direction you want. Honestly a great utility piece for TAC lists since it means you'll always have a tool in your back pocket to flex into.
Catechism of Repugnance: Honestly I like this one on a large brick of Sisters. If you're in rapid fire range (assuming no special weapons for easy maths) that's 40 shots, 8 of which auto-wound and AP-1 on all of the saves. You can use it in other places as well, like on Storm Bolter Dominions or Heavy Bolter Retributors, but I just really like the idea of that much holy Dakka coming out of a brick of Sisters.
Relics Blade of Saint Ellynor: the Blade of Admonition has been renamed (as the original Blade of Admonition is now a Legendary Relic over in the Crusade relic where it auto hits character models and +3 S, -3 AP, and 3 dmg). Still a great weapon with +2 S, -3 AP, and 3 dmg but it can't be used with Rapturous Blows.
Brazier of Eternal Flame: So I am going to take a moment here to go on record about pronunciation here: it's pronounced "brāZHər", not "brəˈzir". The former is a pan that holds coals, the later is a bra. I only mention this because of the number of reviews that kept calling it the "Brassiere of Eternal Flame" (or referencing the generic version as the "Brassiere of Holy Fire"). PSA over, there are three reasons to take this: 1. you play in a meta with a lot of Daemons; 2. you play in a meta with a lot of psykers; 3. you play in a meta with a lot of daemons and psykers (some of which are also daemons). The minus 1 to hit versus daemons and the perils to enemy Psykers who roll doubles on their psychic powers when in 18" is nice, but this is only available for a Canoness and we can only have one Canoness per detachment so it's a meta driven pick.
Wrath of the Emperor: It's an 18" Pistol 4 Heavy Bolter. Take it on a support character like a Dialogus, Hospitaller, or a Dogmata to give them a little extra pop pop so they can watch the heathens drop.
Litanies of Faith: Dropping to a one per battle round re-roll of a Miracle Dice means this one is going to sit on the shelf for most people. It's just too situational. Eligible for a Superior with the Sacred Burden stratagem which is about the only place I'd use it.
Mantle of Ophelia: Every want to tank a knight with a Canoness? Congrats, now you can! All attacks allocated to the bearer become Damage 1. You'll still drown under weight of dice, but heavy weapons and powerful attacks are going to hilariously bounce off.
Triptych of the Marcharian Crusade: Something missed in a lot of reviews is that this only goes on Sanctified or Cult Imperalis models, limiting this to the Missionary, Dialogus, Preacher, and Hospitaller. All other Sanctified and Cult Imperialis models are named characters. Knowing that, +1 toughness, a 4++ and turning the first failed save each turn to 0 damage is incredibly good for keeping these support pieces alive. Sadly the Dogmata can't take this so there goes the best relic for a Smashmata build.
Book of Saint Lucius: +3" to auras is basically good on anything with an aura. Basically an auto-pick.
Iron Surplice of Saint Istaela: Only available to Sisters of Battle models, this gives +1 wound, ignores to-wound rolls against the bearer of 1-3 and bumps the bearer up to a 2+ armour save. If you feel like running Smashmata for some reason, then stick this on her. Otherwise I'd use it on a support HQ like the Palatine if the Canoness already had the Mantle of Ophelia.
Ecclesiarch's Fury: available to models with a chainsword (so Missionary, Preacher, and Canoness) +2 S, -3 AP, 2 dmg isn't a bad statline, but it comes with a -1 to hit and +1 to wound means you're trading off hitting for wound rolls. Decent for since it means wounding anything below T5 on 2s, T5 on 3s, and anything up to T10 on 4s. With the 2 dmg statline it's basically a Marine killer, so might be worth considering on Becky if you're in a MEQ meta. Eligible to be used on a Superior with the Sacred Burden stratagem.
Redemption: 12" plasma pistol that never over heats and always fired a charged shot that can hit multiple units. Honestly it's not a bad option in most cases, but I like it best with Righteous Judgement since it lets you hit a character and their screen at the same time. Eligible to be used on a Superior with the Sacred Burden stratagem.
The Sigil Ecclesiasticus: Priests only (so Missionary, Preacher, Dialogus, and Dogmata), you get to know an additional Hymn and use 2 a turn (but can't use one that's been intoned already this turn. Basically an auto-include if you're just taking 1 Priest, or want one to double up some buffs.
Blessings of Sebastian Thor: Lets you have a unit using two Sacred Rites instead of those from your army. Eligible to be used on a Superior with the Sacred Burden stratagem which is great for buffing a single unit to have different abilities based on their load out.
Simulacrum Sanctorum: Imagifier only. Lets you have two tales instead of one, but you can't double up on any tale another Imagifier knows unless all three are already known. Basically an auto-include if you want just one Imagifier.
Chaplet of Sacrifice: Once per game an Epic Deed strat costs 0 CP, the bearer can re-roll hit rolls, and the bearer isn't removed when it's destroyed but instead gets to shoot as if it were the shooting phase or fight as if it were the fight phase at the end of the phase it was destroyed before being removed. Honestly the biggest bonus are the first two parts with the last part just being a small buff since the army doesn't have any real melee or shooting power house characters who can take this. Probably best on a Palatine or a support character you don't want to give another relic. Most cases this will save 1 CP unless you use it for Divine Intervention which costs 2CP.
Sacred Rites Hand of the Emperor: +1 to advance and charge rolls means this is going to see a lot of mileage in Bloody Rose and Argent Shroud lists. It's decent in others as well, but those two get the most work out of it thanks to how they play.
Spirit of the Martyr: Great for melee armies like Bloody Rose, defensive armies like Valorous Heart, or just anyone who plays in a melee heavy meta. It caps at 6 mortal wounds back to the attacking unit, but anything to get some damage in while losing models is handy.
Aegis of the Emperor: Playing in a psychic heavy meta or just that one guy who loves smite spam? Take it and enjoy shutting their powers off 1/3 of the time, otherwise leave it at home.
Divine Guidance: Great for shooting heavy armies like Argent Shroud or Sacred Rose since it can help buff your AP values. Best on bolters and flamer weapon heavy lists since those are the weakest of the Holy Trinity for AP.
The Passion: Great for melee armies since it gives your melee attacks exploding 6s to hit.
Light of the Emperor: Ignoring leadership modifiers and combat attrition modifiers? Not unless Night Lords start taking over the meta I'm afraid.
"I need plastic models. I need my Exorcist to shoot out of line of sight. I need a jump pack canoness. I need 'terminator' tier sisters. Dominions not getting the move in a transport should have never been done."
GW:
"Your prayers have been answered."
Sisters players:
"That's not good enough. The models don't look like I WANTED them to look. My Exorcist has been balanced for having access to potent rules. Celestine deep striking is not a Jump Canoness. Sacrosancts ONLY have 1W. Anti-tank weapons destroy 'vehicle' class paragons. I can't out-aggro Drukharu/Mechanicus. Your book has typos. But here's my money..."
Like this has to be the most spoiled player base... or the most oblivious one. The amount of desired stuff given to this community, like DIRECTLY ASKED FOR AND RECEIVED and then to receive it so gracelessly. Just, unbelievable.
Purifying Tempest wrote: Hit too close to home? I figured while we're ranting on things like hiring proofreaders and cancelling typos we could revisit what has actually been delivered to this player base over the past 18 months. It is much more on topic than any of the vitriol coming from the same old people who make me wonder why they even play this faction if it is so terrible.
You now, I'm normally fairly middle of the road but your last two posts have struck my last nerve. However, instead of throwing shade I'm going to fire back with data. Unfortunately, that data collection is going to take more time than I have at the moment so it'll be delayed a bit -- especially since I want to make sure my sources are FAQ/Errata accurate.
What I can tackle without getting too deep into numbers:
* Models not looking like some people want -- Taste is individual, that's why economic decisions and data isn't made on people's tastes but by trends. People can both be happy to finally have plastics and not like how some/all of the models look. I really don't like the look of the warsuits and Vahl and really wish they'd given us something else. Outside of "bikes", which most of you would be against, and a Flyer battlefield role unit I'm not 100% certain what that something else is. I just know it's not the warsuits.
* The Exorcist: 150 points stock isn't worth what you're paying for, especially for a unit that has to spend CP to gain the ability to ignore LoS.
Vs Hypothetical T3, 4+ or worse saves (most infantry in the game), Conflag rockets are equivalent to a Wyvern's mortars and the Wyvern is 15 points cheaper. Both are only a bit better than a Whirlwind Castellan launcher and it's 125 points and 50% more range. This is before Convictions/Regimental Doctrines/Chapter Tactics, Sacred Rites, and Combat Doctrines. Both the Wyvern and Whirlwind ignore LoS natively and to the best of my knowledge neither see much, if any, play. I also don't personally believe +1S (on the vehicle, not the weapon -- that's already included in the weapon comparisons), +1T, and Shield of Faith are worth 15 points.
180 may be worth it with LoS ignoring baked in, but I'm not entirely sold without digging deeper into the data. At face value, the Exorcist Launcher outclasses the Manticore, Basilisk, and Whirlwind launchers against most monsters and vehicles because of the d6 damage, with the Whirlwind falling even further behind due to its low AP and 7 Strength. The Manticore pulls closer vs T5 heavy infantry, but still does about half the damage of an Exorcist due to the swingy nature of d6 damage vs d3.
* Paragons: The -1D will be their saving grace against most anti-tank and even then it may not be enough. Multi-meltas within half range and dark lances will average 1.5 damage per shot (after probability and the -1D reduction) vs 2.2 against a T7, 3+ vehicle. Given how aggressive Drukhari and Ad Mech are, this is not a "good thing" for Paragons. But, as others have pointed out, the vehicle issue is more systemic than just Paragons and isn't an easy fix.
* Books and typos or massive need for errata: It happens, but as others have said it happens often enough with GW that it really is problematic. As I said elsewhere, I blame a lot of it on GW having an utter lack of competition in the market. A competitive market would drive their prices to the consumer down our of necessity on their end and also require better proof reading and play testing. Mistakes happening is one thing; it happening with the frequency it does is a different issue entirely.
I haven't seen many people complaining we can't out-aggro Drukhari/Ad Mech, but what I have seen is valid (and hyperbolic) issues with some of the changes. Exorcists, Immolators, and Battle Sanctums absolutely didn't need the nerfs they received nor did the Immolator and the Battle Sanctum need a points increase to boot -- especially the latter, which is almost impossible to deploy if you are competitive player. Changes did need to be made, but some maybe have been too heavy handed. Until the book is in the wild and people are playing with it, we won't know for certain.
My biggest irritation is GWtends to use "hammer and anvil" approaches to fixing issues rather than making a minor tweak and seeing how it plays out while rarely buffing things that may actually need some love. If it's still a problem you can always bring it down more, but if it's too weak they end up acting like they fixed the problem without acknowledging they created a worse one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Repeating my reply to ClockworkZion from B&C for those who don't follow the conversations over there, along with a slight edit!
'll look over the rest of the wall of text (and I don't mean this in a bad way, there's just a LOT to read) when I have more time, but Spirit of the Martyr isn't very good. I get it shouldn't be automatic, but I also think it should be better than "I lost a model in melee only, it has a 1/6 chance of popping a mortal on the attacker." The previous version wasn't great, but I would much rather have "shoot/swing back at the attacking unit" just because I have a generally higher chance of success than 17%.
Losing an entire unit of 20 Battle Sisters averages 3MW with a 1 in 10 chance of capping out at 6. To have a 50% chance of capping out at 6MW, you'd need to lose 34 Battle Sisters. You would need to lose 60 Battle Sisters to have a 95% chance of inflicting 6MW.
Purifying Tempest wrote: Hit too close to home? I figured while we're ranting on things like hiring proofreaders and cancelling typos we could revisit what has actually been delivered to this player base over the past 18 months. It is much more on topic than any of the vitriol coming from the same old people who make me wonder why they even play this faction if it is so terrible.
I'm not 100% sure GW even wear boots but if they do, you've licked them to a sparkling mirror sheen.
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dammit wrote: I will defend everyone on the sacrosants part, I'm the only person who's said anything down on them.
And even then I'm only saying 'I think mortal wounds is this unit's obvious weakness so I'm thinking they play best in the subfactions that have access to defence against mortals.'
I still like the Sacrosants and think they're good, I just think people who expect them to be a tough as nails tank unit that can stand 3 rounds in the enemy backfield are setting themselves up for disappointment.
They're on the exact same level as repentia, they just do the job a different way.
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ClockworkZion wrote: Tanks in general are bad this edition. Honestly we probably just need a lot of people to email the 40kFAQ email complaining about how fragile tanks are and hope GW gives them a mid edition buff at this point like they did Marines.
I really like the idea someone posted before of Mass effect 3 or Xcom2 style armor that blocks some amount of damage, but breaks when they fail a save.
I'm more of a fan of giving them -1 damage (to a min of 1) to push D2 weapons away from being the answer to handling tanks (and monstrous creatures) and leave those more as elite infantry counters.
I dunno, I think it'd be a lot better if they just found something unique and fluffy for tanks to actually do, like, say, force non-vehicles and monsters off objectives by physically running into them and forcing them to either move or die.
You could call it...just off the top of my head here..."tank shock"?
yukishiro1 wrote: I dunno, I think it'd be a lot better if they just found something unique and fluffy for tanks to actually do, like, say, force non-vehicles and monsters off objectives by physically running into them and forcing them to either move or die.
You could call it...just off the top of my head here..."tank shock"?
In the current state of the game, the 'shock' would be that the tank survived long enough to get that far up field.
Touche, though that could be fixed by increasing wounds, or defenses. Though I actually kind-of like a game where tanks are valuable for reasons other than their durability, and where part of the game strategy if you choose to go in that direction is eliminating your opponent's anti-tank before you bring out the tanks to then do their thing.
I just feel like there's this huge design space that's being totally wasted at this point by stupid game rules that give a 100 ton battle tank effectively the same mass as a T2 1W gretchen. Tanks are always going to struggle to have a role in the game as long as they're just effectively a big gretchen with better stats that can't do any of the nifty things that the gretchen can do.
Plagueburst crawlers are about the only tank you'll see on a table, and even then most top level Death Guard lists aren't taking one.
For 5 points less than an exorcist it gets comparable firepower (I'd argue superior now the missiles lost a point of AP, but appreciate it's not cut and dry), ignore line of sight on its D6 cannon, -1 to damage and a 5++.
In reality it's the extra survivability that gets it on the table, but the Exorcist is overpriced regardless of how tanks perform in 40k.
Purifying Tempest wrote: Oh, I totally understand that it is a typo, and no one in my playgroup would ever charge 240 points a model. I bet you'd have a TO hard pressed to run them at 240/ea unless they had some sort of "I don't really like that faction" or "I will operate 100% RAW and the books are as immutable as the bible" type outlooks. I'm merely pointing out how normal people in the real world would look at that and laugh at the obviousness of it (they wrote 240 because it is min/max 3, therefore the unit's entry cost is quite literally 240... no need to individually point them because there's no way that'll be needed). But for whatever reason here on the internets, the conversation shifts to boogeymen and strawmen that are going to charge you 720+ points for a squad of Paragons. And then pointing out the absurdity of that 720+ point unit only costs 13PL in narrative or crusade games that tally on PL... so clearly GW has some sort of nefarious bias to force people to play on PL instead of points.
TO's forced GSC's to play with 40 pts chaff so...(would you think it's sensible if BSS suddenly was 100 pts? That increase was just as sensible)
TO's will force 240/model. They will also force no minimum for the -1 dam so you can charge your 720 pts squad into ork boyz and be 100% impervious to anything but big choppa/power klaw on the nob.
I thought for sure TOs wouldn't allow 10 point Reavers, and yet, to my dismay, about half did. It was downright amazing to me to see that level of refusal to apply common sense in the face of an obvious GW screwup.
Blackie wrote: TOs will enforce their own house rules, as always. I don't think many TOs will push with 240/models and -1 damage without limit.
Uuuuhh....changing stuff from what is written IS house rule.
So going for 240 for squad or -1 with limit IS house rule until GW errataes. That's the bloody point. TO's will enforce 240/model and no limit because they DON'T run house rules!
If you play with 240 for squad that's house rule. Sensible one yes but it's still house rule.
That's why GSC had to play with 40 pts per model chaff for a while. TO's refused to apply house rules even when it's sensible. They went as GW wrote the rules.
Come on, EVERY TO enforces house rules. The ITC/ETC/whatever formats, ban to some conversions or non GW models, time limitations and demanding a copy of the original codexes are the most common ones, none of them is a GW rule.
Yukishiro1's example is also a good one: not all the TOs allowed 10ppm reavers, and yet there was no possible confusion there unlike the case of Warsuits.
Considering that 240 point model isn't even clear and cut RAW, you would be hard pressed to find a TO which rules it like that.
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Blackie wrote: Come on, EVERY TO enforces house rules. The ITC/ETC/whatever formats, ban to some conversions or non GW models, time limitations and demanding a copy of the original codexes are the most common ones, none of them is a GW rule.
Yukishiro1's example is also a good one: not all the TOs allowed 10ppm reavers, and yet there was no possible confusion there unlike the case of Warsuits.
Using VPs as tiebreakers is an houserule too, so we can safely state that no TO leaves home without at least an house rule.
Anyway assumning they're 80ppm base, would you take them as an alternative to Mortifiers? Which one of those units do you prefer? To me they're very similar.
I feel Paragons are simply to expensive for a multi-wound model without an decent invul save that doesn't have obscene damage output to be worth the cost.
They are simply going to eat a round of AT fire and die before doing anything.
Yes, I'm not convinced that multi melta are the best choice for warsuits as this will make them even more tempting a target.
Still not sure what shooting option would be best for them.
For melee though it has to be the swords. I was tempted by the Maces but when I ran the numbers, the extra attack, and better to hit and better AP makes sword better vs all infantry targets and against vehicles the sword is still within 2% of the performance of the mace. (except against death guard vehicles or other vehicles with - 1 dmg)
I think the paragon warsuits look cool but seem to be virtually unplayable. They are just worse than mortifiers in almost every regard.
If you take them I think you have to take melta or why wouldn't you just take mortifiers instead.
From their stats the only difference is the warsuit has 1 less attack(really 2 if you use the mace) and the warsuit has a 4w 2+/6++ vs a 5w 4+/5+++ defensive profile.
For comparisons sake I'm assuming the mortifier has the buzz blades cause there isn't a paragon comparable to the flails.
So offensively in melee the suits have str6 ap -3 d2 4A with the blade or str9 ap-4 d3 3A(-1 to hit) Mortifiers have str8 ap-4 d2 5A
Ranged mortifiers either get 2 heavy flamers or 2 heavy bolters. Warsuits get storm bolters/grenade launchers and 1 of the holy trinity. Due to morts getting twice the HB or HF I think you'd have to go melta to make them unique/better than twice the shots..
So for 20-30 more points than a mortifier you are at best comparable. So why pay a 25% tax when you can take a unit that does almost everything(sometimes better) but cheaper.
You'd have to really need that -1 damage to be effective, but the weapons that will shoot these units are likely to be anti-tank, and todays anti-tank weapons average 5 damage which kills a paragon outright but doesn't kill a mortifier..
Your meta would have to be almost exclusively D2 weapons and small arms fire, for the paragon to be relevant.
Mortifiers and PEs don't have <CORE>, don't get sacred rights, and can't use miracle dice and resist psychic powers (along with not getting the 6++ you referenced).
I do think Paragon suits aren't very good, but that's why they're so expensive in comparison - you're building in the costs of getting full hits and wounds rerolls from Vahl's disaster of a buff, from being able to miracle dice charges and damage rolls, etc etc.
yukishiro1 wrote: Mortifiers and PEs don't have <CORE>, don't get sacred rights, and can't use miracle dice and resist psychic powers (along with not getting the 6++ you referenced).
I do think Paragon suits aren't very good, but that's why they're so expensive in comparison - you're building in the costs of getting full hits and wounds rerolls from Vahl's disaster of a buff, from being able to miracle dice charges and damage rolls, etc etc.
If you give them meltas, of course you're going to be miracle dicing damage rolls in the appropriate situation, what is the point otherwise? The best thing about sisters melta is being able to gaurantee exactly the damage you need to kill something when it's absolutely critical that something dies. It's rare you actually do it, but it's a massive thing to be able to do when it really matters.
But see above re: me agreeing they aren't very good.
yukishiro1 wrote: Mortifiers and PEs don't have <CORE>, don't get sacred rights, and can't use miracle dice and resist psychic powers (along with not getting the 6++ you referenced).
I do think Paragon suits aren't very good, but that's why they're so expensive in comparison - you're building in the costs of getting full hits and wounds rerolls from Vahl's disaster of a buff, from being able to miracle dice charges and damage rolls, etc etc.
You missed the most important one.
They don't have ORDER.
Paragons in BR are scary.
In SR they have plenty of MD.
In AS they can advance and shoot with Melta, while also having inbuilt rerolls.
And so on...
Order is the most important keyword in the SoB dex.
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dammit wrote: Big fan of the thinking that there'll be less than 3 miracle dice every game now.
I don't think Paragons are an auto-include by any stretch of the imagination, but saying they are garbage is also a bit of a stretch. The CORE and ORDER keywords, as others have pointed out, are a big point in their favor, and the 2+ armor save and -1 damage means small weapons that could threaten a Mortifier won't really bother Paragons at all.
Also, I can't remember off the top of my head from the reviews, but do our available buffs to Shield of Faith still exclude vehicles? If not, then there's something else that could help Paragons.
Punisher wrote: I think the paragon warsuits look cool but seem to be virtually unplayable. They are just worse than mortifiers in almost every regard.
If you take them I think you have to take melta or why wouldn't you just take mortifiers instead.
From their stats the only difference is the warsuit has 1 less attack(really 2 if you use the mace) and the warsuit has a 4w 2+/6++ vs a 5w 4+/5+++ defensive profile.
For comparisons sake I'm assuming the mortifier has the buzz blades cause there isn't a paragon comparable to the flails.
So offensively in melee the suits have str6 ap -3 d2 4A with the blade or str9 ap-4 d3 3A(-1 to hit) Mortifiers have str8 ap-4 d2 5A
Ranged mortifiers either get 2 heavy flamers or 2 heavy bolters. Warsuits get storm bolters/grenade launchers and 1 of the holy trinity. Due to morts getting twice the HB or HF I think you'd have to go melta to make them unique/better than twice the shots..
So for 20-30 more points than a mortifier you are at best comparable. So why pay a 25% tax when you can take a unit that does almost everything(sometimes better) but cheaper.
You'd have to really need that -1 damage to be effective, but the weapons that will shoot these units are likely to be anti-tank, and todays anti-tank weapons average 5 damage which kills a paragon outright but doesn't kill a mortifier..
Your meta would have to be almost exclusively D2 weapons and small arms fire, for the paragon to be relevant.
yukishiro1 wrote: Mortifiers and PEs don't have <CORE>, don't get sacred rights, and can't use miracle dice and resist psychic powers (along with not getting the 6++ you referenced).
I do think Paragon suits aren't very good, but that's why they're so expensive in comparison - you're building in the costs of getting full hits and wounds rerolls from Vahl's disaster of a buff, from being able to miracle dice charges and damage rolls, etc etc.
You missed the most important one.
They don't have ORDER.
Paragons in BR are scary. In SR they have plenty of MD. In AS they can advance and shoot with Melta, while also having inbuilt rerolls. And so on...
Order is the most important keyword in the SoB dex.
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dammit wrote: Big fan of the thinking that there'll be less than 3 miracle dice every game now.
My list has around 40 in a 2k game.
Gotta love Sacred Rose.
Too bad that comes at the cost of being good at shooting or melee.
For Paragons, honestly the order trait is necessary to not have them totally outclassed by mortifiers or penitent engines. Without it Mortifiers have literally double the shooting output and close to the same in melee thanks to Zealot while also being cheap enough that you can buy 4 morties for every unit of paragons.
If Celestine still gave them the 6++ I would say it was heavily in the morties favor. Without it, it is still possible that paragons access to more buffs and stronger defense keeps them comparable or even pushes them over the top. We'll have to playtest before we can really tell. My gut tells me they're not very good but that's by no means definitive.
Being able to get an order isn't actually as big a selling point for paragons as it could be; the restriction to 3-model units that want to shoot and fight actually puts them in an awkward spot where they don't gain as much from the top orders as some other stuff. BR definitely isn't bad, but it doesn't boost them as much as it boosts other melee choices; AS you probably don't want to be advancing them because then you can't charge and lose out on a lot of their output, etc. Zealot on the Mortifiers and PEs is actually a better buff than any of the order convictions is on paragons IMO.
The biggest benefit of having an order for paragons probably isn't the <ORDER> bonuses themselves, it's that by being <ORDER> and <CORE> they can benefit from certain stuff like the miracle that lets you bypass invulns, or certain other buffs that are <ORDER> locked.
Basically paragons are expensive, but you can build around enhancing their capabilities. Mortifiers and PEs are just straight-up efficiency, at the cost of being unable to buff them up much further than their already super efficient basic statline.
Paragons have one good order pick: Valorous Heart. Everything else gives marginal utility buffs to a unit that dropa likema sack of hammers when decent firepower is aimed at them.
They should have at least gotten a 5++ SoF save base.
Yeah, VH is the best boost to them, which is a bit awkward since VH doesn't initially seem to be all that promising.
The other awkward thing about paragons is they effectively lock you out of taking while we stand (or I guess in the very best scenario limit you to 10 on it), an extremely powerful secondary that a lot of the best lists build around right now.
I dunno, the Acts of Faith one encourages you you to churn your miracle dice instead of actually using them where and when they're most important. If you go SR yeah obviously you'll make it without even trying, but otherwise with the overall nerfs to MD generation I would be pretty hesitant to commit to a secondary that requires you to burn them, especially one that encourages you to burn them on your opponent's turn, which is not generally where you get the most value from them.
yukishiro1 wrote: I dunno, the Acts of Faith one encourages you you to churn your miracle dice instead of actually using them where and when they're most important. If you go SR yeah obviously you'll make it without even trying, but otherwise with the overall nerfs to MD generation I would be pretty hesitant to commit to a secondary that requires you to burn them, especially one that encourages you to burn them on your opponent's turn, which is not generally where you get the most value from them.
I argue that you can churn dice with OML as well for it.
It's not hard to find uses for them on your turn to get the 2-3 you need, but getting 2-3 on your opponent's turn is where it feels more restrictive unless you're using them for saves.
I think you're normally going to want to do two Acts of Faith in an opponent's turn less than 50% of the time, and 3 very rarely indeed, unless you have to for the secondary. The one per phase limit means that unless you have a simulacrum - which aren't generally on things you'd want to use miracle dice on anyway - your options on your opponent's turn basically boil down to:
1 save in the shooting phase
1 save or 1 offensive roll in the combat phase
1 morale check
Finding a good use for 1 of these per opponent's turn is going to be common, but the 2nd and 3rd seem like they're often going to end up kinda wasted, unless you just literally have so many dice you don't know what to do with them and are using them just to use them by say using a 3 on a hit roll.
It's admittedly an autopick in SR because you can just churn your bad rolls to generate better ones, but I don't think it's an autopick at all for all sisters lists, or even a strong pick a lot of the time unless you build significant extra MD generation into the list.
Been thinking of VH and I feel that it's ideally the best pick for a tank heavy army. Probably fits a Mech MSU build too while OML is more 10 model squads in Rhinos.
I dunno, not sure it does that much on tanks - your enemy is generally going to want to shoot those with high AP weapons anyway, where it doesn't do anything. What VH really has a big impact on is when you can get to a 2+ or better save that then reduces AP by 1, and you can't do that with tanks since they can't get cover. The 5+ FNP vs mortals is decent on tanks I guess, but I don't think it's fabulous or anything. I'd think SR or AR would still be better bets, though fundamentally a tank-heavy sisters army is just going to be bad generally I think.
yukishiro1 wrote: I dunno, not sure it does that much on tanks - your enemy is generally going to want to shoot those with high AP weapons anyway, where it doesn't do anything. What VH really has a big impact on is when you can get to a 2+ or better save that then reduces AP by 1, and you can't do that with tanks since they can't get cover. The 5+ FNP vs mortals is decent on tanks I guess, but I don't think it's fabulous or anything. I'd think SR or AR would still be better bets, though fundamentally a tank-heavy sisters army is just going to be bad generally I think.
I was thinking more of which models benefit the most from VH, not claiming that it makes tanks good.
The game needs an overhaul for tanks and monsters in general though. I just try to think kore in a general sense on what is good on what as the game can change a lot when we don't expect it so rather than look at what is best I tend to try and take a more wide angle look at what synergizes well to get an idea where to take an army in the long run.
I think normal battle sisters, sacrestans and paragons benefit most from VH, it makes the infantry a massive pain to dig out of cover (or even not out of cover for the sacrestans). The problem with VH though has always been that it doesn't have offensive output so you just end up dying slowly, and you don't do that as well as a real durable army. I think a VH patrol maybe has some play, but I'm not sure a full list gets there.
yukishiro1 wrote: I think normal battle sisters, sacrestans and paragons benefit most from VH, it makes the infantry a massive pain to dig out of cover (or even not out of cover for the sacrestans). The problem with VH though has always been that it doesn't have offensive output so you just end up dying slowly, and you don't do that as well as a real durable army. I think a VH patrol maybe has some play, but I'm not sure a full list gets there.
It plays objectives well, but lacks the punch to steal objectives from the opponent, hence why I was thinking of how it combos onto tanks.
Either way I'm more partial to trying to make OML work since it gives me stuff for dying and I like leaning into miracle dice.
(assuming -1 dam needs errata. Could be just warcom article do "blaa blaa" and skip part of text from the codex)
