I'm still scratching my heads to where the 15 hand flamers came from. It's like a missed a page and I'm trying to fill in the gaps.
Genestealer cult have big time access to them
To be more precise, the 1st and 2nd generation hybrids (Acolytes and Metamorphs) have access to them as an upgrade from their auto pistols. Each model can take one if desired, so they can drop a shocking amount of hits if allowed to land in range to use them (generally through the Lying in Wait stratagem).
I'm going to get my first game in tonight... I'll probably run a VH Brigade to keep things simple and focus on new stratagems and unit abilities over multiple-Order synergies. I'll be playing my regular Necron opponent whose army I've historically had trouble with. I think it's a pretty typical Necron build on the strong side... big units of Warriors buffed up with RP for board control, Destroyers for big guns, Tomb Blades for speed, and Wraiths for melee. The Wraiths have given me the most trouble... I can never seem to focus down a unit of 6 before he brings them back with the RP stratagem.
I'm not tooling up to win this one, mostly looking to try as many new army rules and elements without overwhelming and confusing myself. That said, how well might VH hold up against Necrons? I'd like to think my later turns will have more weight of dice through the Order Conviction, allowing to match him for models on the table for longer, but I can see how BR would give me more ways to chew through his wounds and take things off the board.
Your thoughts? What's the best Sororitas answer to Necrons in the broad sense?
MacPhail wrote: I'm going to get my first game in tonight... I'll probably run a VH Brigade to keep things simple and focus on new stratagems and unit abilities over multiple-Order synergies. I'll be playing my regular Necron opponent whose army I've historically had trouble with. I think it's a pretty typical Necron build on the strong side... big units of Warriors buffed up with RP for board control, Destroyers for big guns, Tomb Blades for speed, and Wraiths for melee. The Wraiths have given me the most trouble... I can never seem to focus down a unit of 6 before he brings them back with the RP stratagem.
I'm not tooling up to win this one, mostly looking to try as many new army rules and elements without overwhelming and confusing myself. That said, how well might VH hold up against Necrons? I'd like to think my later turns will have more weight of dice through the Order Conviction, allowing to match him for models on the table for longer, but I can see how BR would give me more ways to chew through his wounds and take things off the board.
Your thoughts? What's the best Sororitas answer to Necrons in the broad sense?
I've played one game with my necrons against Sisters. It was only 1000 pts but I won, mainly due to my Doomsday Ark. Sounds like your opponent doesn't have them, so no worries. Focus down units is the best advice vs necrons, but without knowing what you have access to I can't give anything more. Exorcists ruin Destroyers, but Destroyers ruin Exorcists so it comes down to who fires first. Screen out the Veil of Darkness and you should be able to outrange them.
So I got kind of wrecked just now by the Necrons... not a terrible blowout, but decisive. I threw all my long range firepower at the Destroyers and got 5 of 6... he brought back 4. I forgot the new heavy bolters at times and didn't use the reroll heavy type strat until turn 2, so chalk that up to newbie errors. Exos were useless against Wraiths with their invulns, but I didnt have the massed Dakka that was called for. Tesla Immortals ruined the Seraphim. I made some melta targetting errors with Quantum Shielding, but at least Miracle Dice helped out there. The Canoness melee options are great, but couldn't carry the day. The VH build was supposed to be a tough nut to crack, but S6 vs. T3 is what it always is... a huge liability. My Sisters died in droves... I think he zeroed out 5 fresh squads in his Turn 2 Shooting phase. Spirit of the Martyr was okay, but not game changing. I think I'm still winless against Necrons, as opposed to a positive win-loss ratio against every other faction.
Necrons are one of our worse match ups. All their big guns are s9/10 and ap3+. The murder our Exorcists at range and in response an Excorcist can't really hurt anything with Quantum shielding.
One piece of advice though - the Melta rule on Sisters has changed, you can pick either dice at half range, not just the highest. That helps a little bit.
MacPhail wrote: So I got kind of wrecked just now by the Necrons... not a terrible blowout, but decisive. I threw all my long range firepower at the Destroyers and got 5 of 6... he brought back 4. I forgot the new heavy bolters at times and didn't use the reroll heavy type strat until turn 2, so chalk that up to newbie errors. Exos were useless against Wraiths with their invulns, but I didnt have the massed Dakka that was called for. Tesla Immortals ruined the Seraphim. I made some melta targetting errors with Quantum Shielding, but at least Miracle Dice helped out there. The Canoness melee options are great, but couldn't carry the day. The VH build was supposed to be a tough nut to crack, but S6 vs. T3 is what it always is... a huge liability. My Sisters died in droves... I think he zeroed out 5 fresh squads in his Turn 2 Shooting phase. Spirit of the Martyr was okay, but not game changing. I think I'm still winless against Necrons, as opposed to a positive win-loss ratio against every other faction.
Well those destroyers got lucky. At best 5 4+ rolls so 2-3 rp's in best situation. I rarely get any rolls or if i get 1 comes back.
What s6 there was? Wraith cc but that's just one squad and sisters have bucketloads of bolters and storm bolters so shouldn't be an issue. Guns are mostly s5 no ap or s8+ high ap.
Go into cover and enjoy 2+ save. 10 immortal at buff causes 30 hits, 20 wounds, 3.333 past save and then your 6+++. And that's necron's best anti infantry. Which he likely can do 2, max 3 and would cost around 610 plus 1cp for 3 squads or 690 no cp
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Rynner wrote: Necrons are one of our worse match ups. All their big guns are s9/10 and ap3+. The murder our Exorcists at range and in response an Excorcist can't really hurt anything with Quantum shielding.
One piece of advice though - the Melta rule on Sisters has changed, you can pick either dice at half range, not just the highest. That helps a little bit.
Well exorcists do average 1.55 per failed save so that's some hurt(average 4 and spare. I assumed no reroll buff available as don't recall did sisters have such for exorcist). Some things you can do is simply spam tons of shots at them. Last game w/necrons i ran into dark eldar who had +1 to wound vs w10 models so got tons of shots wounding on 5+。 just like say...storm bolters. Which sisters can put to dam2 and -2. Dominion squad with 4 will do nice dent for example. Plus that melta thing helps when you get to range(and if they stay away no rf10 shots from them either and you can use terrain to block los)
Well those destroyers got lucky. At best 5 4+ rolls so 2-3 rp's in best situation. I rarely get any rolls or if i get 1 comes back.
What s6 there was? Wraith cc but that's just one squad and sisters have bucketloads of bolters and storm bolters so shouldn't be an issue. Guns are mostly s5 no ap or s8+ high ap.
Go into cover and enjoy 2+ save. 10 immortal at buff causes 30 hits, 20 wounds, 3.333 past save and then your 6+++. And that's necron's best anti infantry. Which he likely can do 2, max 3 and would cost around 610 plus 1cp for 3 squads or 690 no cp
The worst S6 came from the Destroyers... he had a unit of six with a Destroyer Lord. If we played it right (I was mainly concerned with my own rules, not his) they had 18 S6 shots, hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s, wounding on 2s, rerolling 1s, with AP-3. That was basically the perfect recipe for my T3, 3+ save, ignore AP -1/-2 army. He was splitting fire and making me pick up almost two whole squads each turn... there went the stormbolter Doms, the triple-melta BSS, the meatshield for the Warlord Canoness... everything.
Rynner wrote: Necrons are one of our worse match ups. All their big guns are s9/10 and ap3+. The murder our Exorcists at range and in response an Excorcist can't really hurt anything with Quantum shielding.
One piece of advice though - the Melta rule on Sisters has changed, you can pick either dice at half range, not just the highest. That helps a little bit.
He never did come for my Exos, but they failed to put him in his place. I left a single Destroyer on the table Turn 1 due to range issues, and he turned 1 back into 5 in Turn 2. Celestine and a Canoness got to them in Turn 2 and finished the job, but by then he had devastated my infantry, while my Exos didn't offer a solution to his Battalion worth of unscathed infantry or his 6 Wraiths with their insane invuln. I did make good use of the melta rule and took down a Tomb Barge over 2 turns despite QS, but the board control game was already lost by then.
Thanks for the insights... please keep the good advice coming! Still curious as to which Order you'd bring against this army (mostly Warriors, Immortals, Wraiths, Destroyers), and whether anyone would swap 500 points of Exorcists for lots more boots on the ground. I felt like VH was a letdown, at least in terms of how resilient they look on paper. They were anything but resilient last night.
The worst S6 came from the Destroyers... he had a unit of six with a Destroyer Lord. If we played it right (I was mainly concerned with my own rules, not his) they had 18 S6 shots, hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s, wounding on 2s, rerolling 1s, with AP-3. That was basically the perfect recipe for my T3, 3+ save, ignore AP -1/-2 army. He was splitting fire and making me pick up almost two whole squads each turn... there went the stormbolter Doms, the triple-melta BSS, the meatshield for the Warlord Canoness... everything.
Ah right. Those are bugger though 24" range can be bit of issue.
Slightly off though. With no cp no reroll to wound. If cp used reroll all to hit.
That's 300 pts squad though that's basically one shot. With 24" range they have to expose and then they die. I rarely get to shoot multiple turns with them and as such often kill less than 300pts. Though if it's shooty vehicle still worth as necrons generally struggle with vehicles.
and he turned 1 back into 5 in Turn 2
That's pure luck. Even if cryptek is in range average is 2.5.
Not to mention getting to even roll is far from quaranteed. Exorcists and all the meltas should make numbers. And with necrons you assign what you need in average and then some more to be sure you finish target up
Thanks for the insights... please keep the good advice coming! Still curious as to which Order you'd bring against this army (mostly Warriors, Immortals, Wraiths, Destroyers), and whether anyone would swap 500 points of Exorcists for lots more boots on the ground. I felt like VH was a letdown, at least in terms of how resilient they look on paper. They were anything but resilient last night.
Necrons are kind of paper vs vh rock. Necrons either throw in ap0 tesla or dda/destroyer -3 or better so no wonder they weren't tough. You faced faction that negates your trait just like vh counters armies that rely on -1/-2.
If you want list tailor then shroud for getting close fast, burning rose for slamming into melee where necrons struggle. Particularly if you 3point at which point it's 1 use relic and overlords as tools.
The worst S6 came from the Destroyers... he had a unit of six with a Destroyer Lord. If we played it right (I was mainly concerned with my own rules, not his) they had 18 S6 shots, hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s, wounding on 2s, rerolling 1s, with AP-3. That was basically the perfect recipe for my T3, 3+ save, ignore AP -1/-2 army. He was splitting fire and making me pick up almost two whole squads each turn... there went the stormbolter Doms, the triple-melta BSS, the meatshield for the Warlord Canoness... everything.
Ah right. Those are bugger though 24" range can be bit of issue.
Slightly off though. With no cp no reroll to wound. If cp used reroll all to hit.
Sounds like we were doing something wrong. I'm pretty sure he was claiming "reroll 1s to wound" from the Destroyer Lord... not sure where the "rerolls 1s to hit" was coming from. Is there another character or a Dynasty that gives that buff? He may have pulled that out of nowhere. He did use a few strats, but nothing in the Shooting phase.
The worst S6 came from the Destroyers... he had a unit of six with a Destroyer Lord. If we played it right (I was mainly concerned with my own rules, not his) they had 18 S6 shots, hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s, wounding on 2s, rerolling 1s, with AP-3. That was basically the perfect recipe for my T3, 3+ save, ignore AP -1/-2 army. He was splitting fire and making me pick up almost two whole squads each turn... there went the stormbolter Doms, the triple-melta BSS, the meatshield for the Warlord Canoness... everything.
Ah right. Those are bugger though 24" range can be bit of issue.
Slightly off though. With no cp no reroll to wound. If cp used reroll all to hit.
Sounds like we were doing something wrong. I'm pretty sure he was claiming "reroll 1s to wound" from the Destroyer Lord... not sure where the "rerolls 1s to hit" was coming from. Is there another character or a Dynasty that gives that buff? He may have pulled that out of nowhere. He did use a few strats, but nothing in the Shooting phase.
Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers have "rerolls 1s to hit" built-in on their datasheet.
Sounds like we were doing something wrong. I'm pretty sure he was claiming "reroll 1s to wound" from the Destroyer Lord... not sure where the "rerolls 1s to hit" was coming from. Is there another character or a Dynasty that gives that buff? He may have pulled that out of nowhere. He did use a few strats, but nothing in the Shooting phase.
Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers have "rerolls 1s to hit" built-in on their datasheet.
So that's all in line... they're just the perfect anti-Sisters unit, even at 300+ points. I don't think they killed 300+ points, but they were easily tallying well over 100 per turn, and they were critical components of my army, not just chaff. So they're the unit to hit first and hardest... it would have been a very different game if I'd gotten them off the board on Turn 1.
Tel11 wrote: All that S6 would have problems against a T7 rhino.
Yep, I ran two of them. One disembarked a Canoness and a melta BSS in aura range of the stormbolter Doms, and they bagged a pair of Heavy Destroyers and pitched in on the big Destroyer unit. The other disembarked heavy flamer Rets that gave me an answer to the QS on the Tomb Barge. They both felt like okay turn 1 disembark decisions, but it did cost me longevity on those units.
Is anyone trying wall o' transports, or is that build done for?
The worst S6 came from the Destroyers... he had a unit of six with a Destroyer Lord. If we played it right (I was mainly concerned with my own rules, not his) they had 18 S6 shots, hitting on 3s, rerolling 1s, wounding on 2s, rerolling 1s, with AP-3. That was basically the perfect recipe for my T3, 3+ save, ignore AP -1/-2 army. He was splitting fire and making me pick up almost two whole squads each turn... there went the stormbolter Doms, the triple-melta BSS, the meatshield for the Warlord Canoness... everything.
Ah right. Those are bugger though 24" range can be bit of issue.
Slightly off though. With no cp no reroll to wound. If cp used reroll all to hit.
Sounds like we were doing something wrong. I'm pretty sure he was claiming "reroll 1s to wound" from the Destroyer Lord... not sure where the "rerolls 1s to hit" was coming from. Is there another character or a Dynasty that gives that buff? He may have pulled that out of nowhere. He did use a few strats, but nothing in the Shooting phase.
Ah sorry missed destroyer lord. Before ca it was so bad nobody used it. Point drop made him bit more but still with 1cp stratagem giving full rerolls to hit and wound you either are in serious cp shortage or use multiple destroyer squads(now feasible idea with cheaper heavy destroyer) or d.lord is fairly pointless.
To hit rr1 destroyers have natively.
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Tel11 wrote: All that S6 would have problems against a T7 rhino.
Well not with destroyer and stratagem. 18 shots, 14 hits, about 7.77 wounds, -3 so 6.44 past saves and d3 damage equals dead leman russ.
That 300 pts(plus 1cp) actually outshoots 2 dda(320pts) though at shorter range and softer body.
Destroyers are one of the few quality at units necrons have. Heavy destroyers entered into fray though with ca and with d.lord could be pretty nasty. 9 lascannonish shots rr1 for hit and to wound.
Tel11 wrote: All that S6 would have problems against a T7 rhino.
Is anyone trying wall o' transports, or is that build done for?
I'm still trying to get Immolator Spam to work, but at 110 points per... its a tight fit to get as many tanks in as possible. I really liked the version back in the day where Inquisitoral Storm Troopers jumped into Immolators and shot Plasma out of the rear hatch. I tried to keep that by having a 5 Sisters squad ride in a Repressor with Combi Plasma armed acolytes.
Spoiler:
8th Ed “Witch Hunters” List: 2000 points, 14~ 16 CP
=][= Vanguard Detachment (+1 CP) 251 points
74 HQ =][= Minoris, Combi Plasma, Force Sword
57 EL 3 Acolytes, 3 Combi Plasma
22 EL 1 Jokaero
76 EL 4 Acolytes. 4 Combi Plasma
22 EL 1 Jokaero
I'm going to give it a try at a store tournament on January 4th, just scrounging the bits for converting the last Cherubs I'll need and get paint on 'em New Years Day.
Tel11 wrote: All that S6 would have problems against a T7 rhino.
Is anyone trying wall o' transports, or is that build done for?
I'm still trying to get Immolator Spam to work, but at 110 points per... its a tight fit to get as many tanks in as possible. I really liked the version back in the day where Inquisitoral Storm Troopers jumped into Immolators and shot Plasma out of the rear hatch. I tried to keep that by having a 5 Sisters squad ride in a Repressor with Combi Plasma armed acolytes.
Spoiler:
8th Ed “Witch Hunters” List: 2000 points, 14~ 16 CP
=][= Vanguard Detachment (+1 CP) 251 points
74 HQ =][= Minoris, Combi Plasma, Force Sword
57 EL 3 Acolytes, 3 Combi Plasma
22 EL 1 Jokaero
76 EL 4 Acolytes. 4 Combi Plasma
22 EL 1 Jokaero
I'm going to give it a try at a store tournament on January 4th, just scrounging the bits for converting the last Cherubs I'll need and get paint on 'em New Years Day.
Why ebon chalice? Valorous heart seems much better for vehicles. Also imagifiers can be reasonably expected to be in range at least the first two turns and will probably be massively more useful than hospitallers.
Why ebon chalice? Valorous heart seems much better for vehicles. Also imagifiers can be reasonably expected to be in range at least the first two turns and will probably be massively more useful than hospitallers.
I prefer the Ebon Chalice rules, and was planning on using the Cleansing Flame stratagem on the Immolators.
However, I moved some points around and came up with this list instead:
Spoiler:
8th Ed “Witch Hunters” List: 2000 points, 14~ 16 CP
=][= Vanguard Detachment (+1 CP) 251 points
74 HQ =][= Minoris, Combi Plasma, Force Sword
57 EL 3 Acolytes, 3 Combi Plasma
22 EL 1 Jokaero
76 EL 4 Acolytes. 4 Combi Plasma
22 EL 1 Jokaero
Ebon Chalice Battalion Detachment (+5 CP) 852 points
45 HQ Canoness, HEROINE IN THE MAKING (-1CP): Beacon of Faith (+1 MD/turn)
53 HQ Canoness, Chainsword, Bolt Pistol, Brazier of Holy Fire
70 TR 5 Sisters, 2 Storm Bolters, Cherub, Simulacrum, Combi Plasma
90 TR 5 Sisters, 2 Meltaguns, Cherub, Simulacrum, Inferno Pistol
90 TR 5 Sisters, 2 Meltaguns, Cherub, Simulacrum, Inferno Pistol
65 EL 5 Arcoflagellants
109 DT Repressor, Heavy Flamer, 2 Storm Bolters
110 DT Immolator, Immolation Cannon, Heavy Bolter
110 DT Immolator, Immolation Cannon, Heavy Bolter
110 DT Immolator, Immolation Cannon, Heavy Bolter
Basically dropping the Hospitallers, Rhino and downgrading Combi Meltas to Inferno Pistols, and then adding in Heavy Flamer Retributors to shoot out the back of a Repressor with ArcoFlagellants to go with the Missionary in the formerly empty Immolator.
I'm thinking of swapping out the Arcos for Repentia so that they could use more stratagems due to their Sororitas keyword, like Holy Rage so they can Advance and still Charge, but unless I drop almost all of the Inferno Pistols I'm not squeezing a Repentia Superior in there as well.
tneva82 wrote: Well 3rd parties make own rulings all the time even going against raw. Either lvo doesn't know rules or they feel rules need changing.
Note it even specifically says not from gw.
True. But FLG/LVO/ITC has a pretty big voice in the feedback area for GW.
Unfortunately true. I don't think they really should until they start playing the 40k missions rather than tweaking the meta internally themselves.
Always thought it was weird that a big expensive unit like the Castellan was dominating ITC so heavily for so long but wasn't nearly as big an issue in the CA missions. Then I remembered that there's a big financial incentive when ITC is managed by a third party store owner.
As for Sisters - that will be interesting...a pity we aren't getting legit answers to these questions but I imagine there will be very few sisters players there anyway.
tneva82 wrote: Well 3rd parties make own rulings all the time even going against raw. Either lvo doesn't know rules or they feel rules need changing.
Note it even specifically says not from gw.
True. But FLG/LVO/ITC has a pretty big voice in the feedback area for GW.
Unfortunately true. I don't think they really should until they start playing the 40k missions rather than tweaking the meta internally themselves.
Always thought it was weird that a big expensive unit like the Castellan was dominating ITC so heavily for so long but wasn't nearly as big an issue in the CA missions. Then I remembered that there's a big financial incentive when ITC is managed by a third party store owner.
As for Sisters - that will be interesting...a pity we aren't getting legit answers to these questions but I imagine there will be very few sisters players there anyway.
The CA missions favor skew just as heavily as ITC missions do, the only difference is what the skew is toward. OH, and the fact that CA missions have stupid BS like 'no invul in the center' that massively favors some armies over others.
Besides, it's not like GW exclusively uses CA missions for playtesting. They most likely use...well let's be real they mostly use narrative scenarios with a few other missions thrown in.
The idea that their missions are designed the way they are to drive sales is laughable and implying the castellan being strong in ITC being a deliberate, profit driven choice demonstrates a childs understanding of how sales work.
You wouldn't want one expensive kit to be powerful for a long time. That's stupid for 3 reasons.
1. No matter how good it is, it will always be outside of what a significant number of people can afford to throw down in a single transaction. It's easier for people to make 3 60$ transactions than it is to make 1 180$ transaction.
2. You only ever need 1. No repeat customers. And that means it would be dead on the shelves after the initial wave of meta chasers (as it is now).
And 3. It makes FAR more money to rapidly change what's powerful than to let something sit stagnant. Look at the ironhands release. Buff repulsor executions(which NO ONE was using) into the stratosphere, sell a bunch of REs, nerf it hard 3 weeks later, now sell dreadnoughts and planes instead. To the same people who bought REs.
tneva82 wrote: Well 3rd parties make own rulings all the time even going against raw. Either lvo doesn't know rules or they feel rules need changing.
Note it even specifically says not from gw.
True. But FLG/LVO/ITC has a pretty big voice in the feedback area for GW.
Unfortunately true. I don't think they really should until they start playing the 40k missions rather than tweaking the meta internally themselves.
Always thought it was weird that a big expensive unit like the Castellan was dominating ITC so heavily for so long but wasn't nearly as big an issue in the CA missions. Then I remembered that there's a big financial incentive when ITC is managed by a third party store owner.
As for Sisters - that will be interesting...a pity we aren't getting legit answers to these questions but I imagine there will be very few sisters players there anyway.
The CA missions favor skew just as heavily as ITC missions do, the only difference is what the skew is toward. OH, and the fact that CA missions have stupid BS like 'no invul in the center' that massively favors some armies over others.
Besides, it's not like GW exclusively uses CA missions for playtesting. They most likely use...well let's be real they mostly use narrative scenarios with a few other missions thrown in.
The idea that their missions are designed the way they are to drive sales is laughable and implying the castellan being strong in ITC being a deliberate, profit driven choice demonstrates a childs understanding of how sales work.
You wouldn't want one expensive kit to be powerful for a long time. That's stupid for 3 reasons.
1. No matter how good it is, it will always be outside of what a significant number of people can afford to throw down in a single transaction. It's easier for people to make 3 60$ transactions than it is to make 1 180$ transaction.
2. You only ever need 1. No repeat customers. And that means it would be dead on the shelves after the initial wave of meta chasers (as it is now).
And 3. It makes FAR more money to rapidly change what's powerful than to let something sit stagnant. Look at the ironhands release. Buff repulsor executions(which NO ONE was using) into the stratosphere, sell a bunch of REs, nerf it hard 3 weeks later, now sell dreadnoughts and planes instead. To the same people who bought REs.
TL: DR Expensive=/=Profitable.
All things that got fixed with latest CA, no need to keep playing the same ITC ruleset over and over.
Indeed. I am actually really curious to see how this plays out in games as I really don't think it's going to be as big a deal as some people make it out to be.
Still waiting on GWsfaq though. Really hope they don't make us wait till after the full release for it.
Does anyone have a solution for dealing with Tau? I played a tournament practice game recently and just got demolished because I couldn't do anything about his Riptides, on account of Shield Drones making them effectively indestructible unless you can get into melee and cause a lot of damage there. I couldn't get anti-infantry weapons close to kill the drones because most of them were hiding behind LoS blockers, I couldn't tie up the Tides in combat because they have Fly, and I couldn't damage them directly because the drones were able to absorb anything I had that was strong enough to hurt a Riptide.
(And no, I'm not looking for people saying to just "play the mission", because ITC missions revolve mainly around killing things, and because it's not feasible to ignore 800ish points of mobile, long-ranged death with LoS-ignoring guns.
I'm also struggling against Imperial Fists, but I think there the only solution is "Go first so you can blunt the damage before getting blasted off the board". Tau I'm just out of ideas entirely.
Try the new ones ERJAK, even the maelstrom ones are way more fair now, but the eternal war ones took out all the weird stuff like no invulns. Only thing I can think of is you'll still want troops, but I see that as a good thing. If you don't have troops I don't feel you have the right to complain about being able to hold objectives in one mission out of 6. Some of the missions have some cool ideas, like being able to destroy objectives in your opponent's deployment zone.
Anywho, it seems like all the Valorous heart lists posted doing well in tournaments have used Exorcists. Have people been playing with Retributors any or is it more just a case of that's what they have because multimelta sisters aren't very common yet? Just curious if those who have used retributors ran into problems with them. I'm stuck with the starter set and a few extra models till the general release and still kind of budgeting how I'm going to make this army work, and the heavy support is one part I'm still scratching my head on
I've tried running both Exorcists and multi-melta Retributors, and it's seemed very one sided to me so far. In my games, Exorcists just destroy anything they look at, especially with Ebon Chalice (on demand 6's for damage is nice), while my Retributors have failed to do a single wound (bolters from extra girls did kill some stealers though). Of course, some of this is variance, luck, and good positioning from my opponent/bad positioning from me, but it still seems fairly convincing to me at least. Double the range, same number of shots as a full squad of Rets, same strength, same damage unless you're in half range (quarter range of the exorcist), 1 better AP that doesn't matter much half the time because of invulns being common.
The stratagems for the Rets do help, but it feels like spending 2 CP to make them closer to even. And I really want to like Rets.
I've had the opposite experience, playing Argent Shroud.
Rets are always in range, the +12" range stratagem means they're almost always in melta range, and they are much much less vulnerable to Simulacrum, as well as being able to use 2 MD since they can have a Simulacrum.
I've done 14 damage on more than one occasion (or 13) with the stratagem and MD combo.
My Exorcists typically just melt under withering fire. Any list that can kill 3 Tank Commanders can kill 3 Exorcists, and any list that can kill 3 Tank Commanders can kill a Knight, which most lists have to do these days today.
Indeed. I am actually really curious to see how this plays out in games as I really don't think it's going to be as big a deal as some people make it out to be.
Still waiting on GWsfaq though. Really hope they don't make us wait till after the full release for it.
Well big deal would be gw once more admitting they don't even understand own rules if they change how it works
As for faqgw already stated they wait for full release to get more feedback...
Unit1126PLL wrote: I've had the opposite experience, playing Argent Shroud.
Rets are always in range, the +12" range stratagem means they're almost always in melta range, and they are much much less vulnerable to Simulacrum, as well as being able to use 2 MD since they can have a Simulacrum.
I've done 14 damage on more than one occasion (or 13) with the stratagem and MD combo.
My Exorcists typically just melt under withering fire. Any list that can kill 3 Tank Commanders can kill 3 Exorcists, and any list that can kill 3 Tank Commanders can kill a Knight, which most lists have to do these days today.
I think they're about even honestly. But my exorcists have been fluffing their rolls something awful in every game and I rarely get more than 2d6 damage on a given target. I will say last game I played I took rets and an exorcist on rets on opposite flanks and the exorcist did more damage but over more turns whereas the rets killed most of the targets on their flank earlier then sat about twiddling their thumbs for the rest of the game.
I'd say the difference is spread ourlt damage vs burst damage more than anything else. But as I said my exorcists keep rolling below average.
Indeed. I am actually really curious to see how this plays out in games as I really don't think it's going to be as big a deal as some people make it out to be.
Still waiting on GWsfaq though. Really hope they don't make us wait till after the full release for it.
I've been playing it as single die MDs but have wished many, many times I could do multiple dice.
Don't suppose anyone has come across any battle reports or are willing to play a game with a mate to experiment using the multiple MD interpretation? I'd do it myself but I don't have time to game these days.
I keep meaning to try 30x Rets of 3x Exorcists but I don't have 12 Multi Melta sisters, only 6. Since I'm prepping for LVO it's hard to want to practice with units/models that I just don't have nor have access to.
I like how Rets in theory are more survivable vs las canons and the like but their damage out and range is worse in most cases.
Rynner wrote: I keep meaning to try 30x Rets of 3x Exorcists but I don't have 12 Multi Melta sisters, only 6. Since I'm prepping for LVO it's hard to want to practice with units/models that I just don't have nor have access to.
I like how Rets in theory are more survivable vs las canons and the like but their damage out and range is worse in most cases.
I think I have 4-6 unprimed rets and a whole bunch of MMs if you want me to mail you some for vegas?
True. The St. Louis area is really competitive, too. There's 4 local game stores and an ITC tourney almost every weekend somewhere. The various local clubs do their best not to conflict schedules so everyone can participate in all of them.
Waaaghpower wrote: Does anyone have a solution for dealing with Tau? I played a tournament practice game recently and just got demolished because I couldn't do anything about his Riptides, on account of Shield Drones making them effectively indestructible unless you can get into melee and cause a lot of damage there. I couldn't get anti-infantry weapons close to kill the drones because most of them were hiding behind LoS blockers, I couldn't tie up the Tides in combat because they have Fly, and I couldn't damage them directly because the drones were able to absorb anything I had that was strong enough to hurt a Riptide.
(And no, I'm not looking for people saying to just "play the mission", because ITC missions revolve mainly around killing things, and because it's not feasible to ignore 800ish points of mobile, long-ranged death with LoS-ignoring guns.
I'm also struggling against Imperial Fists, but I think there the only solution is "Go first so you can blunt the damage before getting blasted off the board". Tau I'm just out of ideas entirely.
I'm one of the few true T'au players in my immediate area, though there are a few who play them. Riptide spam is just straight up good. They tear t3 up. Its just what they do.
Some decent answers are most definitely Argent Shroud Storm Bolting Dominion.
You can do Mortifiers which are incredibly fast and with the Ebon Chalice Warlord trait, very reliable. Once they are involved, i feel like your enemy target priority gets chosen for them, by you, as you bring your forces to bear.15" move, assault 3 Heavy Bolters into the chaff shielding, and then its onto the slaughter, splitting attacks to end many drone units and force morale on more. Anguish of the Unredeemed goes off? Good! Desperate For Redemption goes off for 3 CP, and you are wailing on the Riptide probably at that point and you've wasted all his drones. I think Mortifiers are a very good answer to the Riptide issue but it does sadly hinge on going first. On the plus side, exorcists coooould confuse his target priority some?
Exorcists with Conflagration rockets can do serious work on a larger singular group of drones. Also a cheaper option. Taking one of your Exorcists this way could be a thing with Devastating Refrain Stratagem. Make a big deal out of how many drones it kills and he may have a choice to make that is unenviable
So that is a few ideas. The key is that drones are usually in large numbers and you kinda gotta take em out en masse all at one go to ensure future rounds go well.
Waaaghpower wrote: Does anyone have a solution for dealing with Tau? I played a tournament practice game recently and just got demolished because I couldn't do anything about his Riptides, on account of Shield Drones making them effectively indestructible unless you can get into melee and cause a lot of damage there. I couldn't get anti-infantry weapons close to kill the drones because most of them were hiding behind LoS blockers, I couldn't tie up the Tides in combat because they have Fly, and I couldn't damage them directly because the drones were able to absorb anything I had that was strong enough to hurt a Riptide.
(And no, I'm not looking for people saying to just "play the mission", because ITC missions revolve mainly around killing things, and because it's not feasible to ignore 800ish points of mobile, long-ranged death with LoS-ignoring guns.
I'm also struggling against Imperial Fists, but I think there the only solution is "Go first so you can blunt the damage before getting blasted off the board". Tau I'm just out of ideas entirely.
I'm one of the few true T'au players in my immediate area, though there are a few who play them. Riptide spam is just straight up good. They tear t3 up. Its just what they do.
Some decent answers are most definitely Argent Shroud Storm Bolting Dominion.
You can do Mortifiers which are incredibly fast and with the Ebon Chalice Warlord trait, very reliable. Once they are involved, i feel like your enemy target priority gets chosen for them, by you, as you bring your forces to bear.15" move, assault 3 Heavy Bolters into the chaff shielding, and then its onto the slaughter, splitting attacks to end many drone units and force morale on more. Anguish of the Unredeemed goes off? Good! Desperate For Redemption goes off for 3 CP, and you are wailing on the Riptide probably at that point and you've wasted all his drones. I think Mortifiers are a very good answer to the Riptide issue but it does sadly hinge on going first. On the plus side, exorcists coooould confuse his target priority some?
Exorcists with Conflagration rockets can do serious work on a larger singular group of drones. Also a cheaper option. Taking one of your Exorcists this way could be a thing with Devastating Refrain Stratagem. Make a big deal out of how many drones it kills and he may have a choice to make that is unenviable
So that is a few ideas. The key is that drones are usually in large numbers and you kinda gotta take em out en masse all at one go to ensure future rounds go well.
The big issue is the drones sitting out of LoS. Terrain is the biggest factor in a SoB vs Tau matchup.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Don't suppose anyone has come across any battle reports or are willing to play a game with a mate to experiment using the multiple MD interpretation? I'd do it myself but I don't have time to game these days.
Depends on what you mean with multiple MD interpretation. The only way I could even see that being a legitimate interpretation is with fast rolling, which is only for hits and wounds for like weapons against like targets, not for armour saves or damage where the impact is much higher.
You can do Mortifiers which are incredibly fast and with the Ebon Chalice Warlord trait, very reliable.
How does the Ebon Chalice WL trait help Mortifiers? Even if you mean the EC conviction, Mortifiers don't have Order keyword and can't benefit from the orders ability to burn MD for an auto 6.
You can do Mortifiers which are incredibly fast and with the Ebon Chalice Warlord trait, very reliable.
How does the Ebon Chalice WL trait help Mortifiers? Even if you mean the EC conviction, Mortifiers don't have Order keyword and can't benefit from the orders ability to burn MD for an auto 6.
They also can't benefit from the stratagem.
Your choice of conviction has no effect on mortifiers.
Waaaghpower wrote: Does anyone have a solution for dealing with Tau? I played a tournament practice game recently and just got demolished because I couldn't do anything about his Riptides, on account of Shield Drones making them effectively indestructible unless you can get into melee and cause a lot of damage there. I couldn't get anti-infantry weapons close to kill the drones because most of them were hiding behind LoS blockers, I couldn't tie up the Tides in combat because they have Fly, and I couldn't damage them directly because the drones were able to absorb anything I had that was strong enough to hurt a Riptide.
(And no, I'm not looking for people saying to just "play the mission", because ITC missions revolve mainly around killing things, and because it's not feasible to ignore 800ish points of mobile, long-ranged death with LoS-ignoring guns.
I'm also struggling against Imperial Fists, but I think there the only solution is "Go first so you can blunt the damage before getting blasted off the board". Tau I'm just out of ideas entirely.
I'm one of the few true T'au players in my immediate area, though there are a few who play them. Riptide spam is just straight up good. They tear t3 up. Its just what they do.
Some decent answers are most definitely Argent Shroud Storm Bolting Dominion.
You can do Mortifiers which are incredibly fast and with the Ebon Chalice Warlord trait, very reliable. Once they are involved, i feel like your enemy target priority gets chosen for them, by you, as you bring your forces to bear.15" move, assault 3 Heavy Bolters into the chaff shielding, and then its onto the slaughter, splitting attacks to end many drone units and force morale on more. Anguish of the Unredeemed goes off? Good! Desperate For Redemption goes off for 3 CP, and you are wailing on the Riptide probably at that point and you've wasted all his drones. I think Mortifiers are a very good answer to the Riptide issue but it does sadly hinge on going first. On the plus side, exorcists coooould confuse his target priority some?
Exorcists with Conflagration rockets can do serious work on a larger singular group of drones. Also a cheaper option. Taking one of your Exorcists this way could be a thing with Devastating Refrain Stratagem. Make a big deal out of how many drones it kills and he may have a choice to make that is unenviable
So that is a few ideas. The key is that drones are usually in large numbers and you kinda gotta take em out en masse all at one go to ensure future rounds go well.
Some of this is wrong. Conflagration rocket exorcists suck, even for their anti-infantry purpose because 3 HB retributors and 2 hb mortifiers do right around the same number shots on average for so much cheaper that even the extra rend doesn't make the Exo efficient.
Mortifiers do not benefit from sacred rights, order convictions, miracle dice, or order specific stratagems.
Only units with the Sacred Rights rule can benefit from Sacred Rights, and then only if you're 100% sororitas or ministorum. Morty-fiers have sororitas keyword but not the Sacred Rights rule.
You can do Mortifiers which are incredibly fast and with the Ebon Chalice Warlord trait, very reliable.
How does the Ebon Chalice WL trait help Mortifiers? Even if you mean the EC conviction, Mortifiers don't have Order keyword and can't benefit from the orders ability to burn MD for an auto 6.
They also can't benefit from the stratagem.
Your choice of conviction has no effect on mortifiers.
Waaaghpower wrote: Does anyone have a solution for dealing with Tau? I played a tournament practice game recently and just got demolished because I couldn't do anything about his Riptides, on account of Shield Drones making them effectively indestructible unless you can get into melee and cause a lot of damage there. I couldn't get anti-infantry weapons close to kill the drones because most of them were hiding behind LoS blockers, I couldn't tie up the Tides in combat because they have Fly, and I couldn't damage them directly because the drones were able to absorb anything I had that was strong enough to hurt a Riptide.
(And no, I'm not looking for people saying to just "play the mission", because ITC missions revolve mainly around killing things, and because it's not feasible to ignore 800ish points of mobile, long-ranged death with LoS-ignoring guns.
I'm also struggling against Imperial Fists, but I think there the only solution is "Go first so you can blunt the damage before getting blasted off the board". Tau I'm just out of ideas entirely.
I'm one of the few true T'au players in my immediate area, though there are a few who play them. Riptide spam is just straight up good. They tear t3 up. Its just what they do.
Some decent answers are most definitely Argent Shroud Storm Bolting Dominion.
You can do Mortifiers which are incredibly fast and with the Ebon Chalice Warlord trait, very reliable. Once they are involved, i feel like your enemy target priority gets chosen for them, by you, as you bring your forces to bear.15" move, assault 3 Heavy Bolters into the chaff shielding, and then its onto the slaughter, splitting attacks to end many drone units and force morale on more. Anguish of the Unredeemed goes off? Good! Desperate For Redemption goes off for 3 CP, and you are wailing on the Riptide probably at that point and you've wasted all his drones. I think Mortifiers are a very good answer to the Riptide issue but it does sadly hinge on going first. On the plus side, exorcists coooould confuse his target priority some?
Exorcists with Conflagration rockets can do serious work on a larger singular group of drones. Also a cheaper option. Taking one of your Exorcists this way could be a thing with Devastating Refrain Stratagem. Make a big deal out of how many drones it kills and he may have a choice to make that is unenviable
So that is a few ideas. The key is that drones are usually in large numbers and you kinda gotta take em out en masse all at one go to ensure future rounds go well.
Some of this is wrong. Conflagration rocket exorcists suck, even for their anti-infantry purpose because 3 HB retributors and 2 hb mortifiers do right around the same number shots on average for so much cheaper that even the extra rend doesn't make the Exo efficient.
Mortifiers do not benefit from sacred rights, order convictions, miracle dice, or order specific stratagems.
The rest I agree with.
.I didn't say the mortifiers specifically needed the Conviction.
Conflagration rockets are very good with the stratagem. And what i said was that it will help confuse priority. It will clear a good sized chunk of drones. Has a hb too. Added bonus I suppose.
You are right about the Miracle die. I saw that they were Sororitas, but missed that they dont have the Act of Faith rule. Yup. I stand corrected on that point.
Rynner wrote: I keep meaning to try 30x Rets of 3x Exorcists but I don't have 12 Multi Melta sisters, only 6. Since I'm prepping for LVO it's hard to want to practice with units/models that I just don't have nor have access to.
I like how Rets in theory are more survivable vs las canons and the like but their damage out and range is worse in most cases.
I think I have 4-6 unprimed rets and a whole bunch of MMs if you want me to mail you some for vegas?
True. The St. Louis area is really competitive, too. There's 4 local game stores and an ITC tourney almost every weekend somewhere. The various local clubs do their best not to conflict schedules so everyone can participate in all of them.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Don't suppose anyone has come across any battle reports or are willing to play a game with a mate to experiment using the multiple MD interpretation? I'd do it myself but I don't have time to game these days.
I've done a couple games with multiple MD and games with 1 md.
The short of it is multi MD can let you focus on making an army made to generate as many MD as possible and help make important attacks stick a lot better which can be done one a turn and still have MD for defensive purpose. If you don't focus on getting as much MD multiple MD let's you make a decent attack every other round.
With single MD focusing on generating MD kinda feels like a waste and becomes cp intensive to make use of them
Single MD without MD focus is "its nice to have" it won't matter to much and feels more of a use it on anything kinda feel
My impression of Exo vs. MM Rets is that Exos are definitley a better AT option, but because of rule of 3, you'll likely need to bring a full MM squad along side 3 exos to meet your AT quota in a pure 2k army. Is that about right?
Another thing that retributors benefit more from spamming multiple squads than exorcists. Exorcists are limited to 1 act period. Retributors can get 1 per squad. In general sister vehicle spam will be losing MD power a lot.
Big thing in favour of exorcists is though with vh and imagifier they are very resilient against the current meta weapons that will reap infantry quite fast. There's reason why infantry little armies are gaining popularity.
Just finished my second game with the Sisters. fought Papa Nurgle. I absorbed his worst in a serious way. It was great!
Retributors did 20 wounds to a Plagueburst Crawler. Super sweet. They were GOING to wreck a Daemon Prince but he conceded. Dominion powered through some Terminators who dropped in my backfield. did 7 wounds to them, and they only saved 2. So down went 5 Terminators, plus another to the bolter fire and Grenade.Failed Morale. Poof.
Celestine died after failing to kill a Rhino (she jumped 18" as in last game and charged it, then locked up his Deredeo Dreadnought), but then butchered his backfield Chaos Marines and took the bonus point the rest of the game.
Sisters of Battle pressed forward, ever forward and weathered a storm of fire, taking a pretty fair number of losses but once in position, his aggression turned to horror as the fusilade of Meltaguns and Bolters backed by Mircale dice crumpled his Nurgle Marines.
Exorcists just about killed the Daredeo in two volleys, and then they blasted the last Plague Crawler in the following round. One got eaten by the Daemon Prince but two was enough, as with the Stratagem I totaled 16 shots.
Arco-Flagellents for once were left with nothing to do until the Obliterators showed up. Then they rushed out into the open in their underwear. The Obliterators were kinda forced to try killing the last two Exorcists, and hope the Arcos couldn't reach them after that but... they could. 54 attacks later, there were no Obliterators.
Really, it was Hammer and Anvil Deployment (bad), but with Sisters going first (good).
There just was almost nothing left after 3 rounds. Round 4 would have been a tabling.
1,000 points vs chaos, neither list was optimized.
My list:
Spoiler:
Bloody Rose
Canoness- WL: 5++ SoF aura. Relic: Blade of Admonition. Inferno Pistol
Canoness- WL (Heroine in the Making) Blazing Ire. Relic: Boniface. Inferno Pistol
Missionary
3 BSSs (5x) with two stormbolters, SS with stormbotlter, power maul, inferno pistol.
seraphim (5x) with 2x twin inferno pistols. SS with PS, PP seraphim (6x) with 2x twin inferno pistols. SS with PS, PP
Zephyrim (10) with pennit.
9 repentia
Repentia mistress
2x Imagifers.
Chaos List
Spoiler:
Black Legion
"Chain master" Chaos Lord
Chaos Sorcerer
Dark Apostle
cultists (23x) With auto guns.(one unit)
2x chaos marine squads (5x) with plasma guns
Havoks (5x) with las cannons and combi-plasma
Terminators (5x) with combi-plasma, power fist, 4x PS.
Basically I ran straight at him. He had to grind away at my squads, leaving enough power weapon attacks. Since we were using the deck building style missions from CA 2019, I was able to out score him, despite our roughly equal exchange in casualties. He was rather off-put when the zephyrim and both cannoness managed to cut through both a CSM squad, a havoc squad, and a sorcerer in one turn.
The repentia were killed early on, but that was largely due to poor play on my part as they and a BBS managed to out run their buffs (which I had let fall behind).
The game ended 13 to 9 on points, with just my WL remaining, though killing her would have been even worse for him as I had a "Priority Order: Martyrdom" objective in play.
Quite confused what the entire discussion regarding the "single MD" vs "multiple MD" interpretation is about.
According to the codex, you may perform a single act of faith per phase for the listed types of die rolls (advance, hits, wounds, etc.). Before making a roll for a model or unit with the Acts of Faith ability, you can choose one or more dice from your MD pool instead. Set these dice aside, and roll the rest. If you are rolling for hits for a unit with multiple weapon types, you could use multiple dice for each type of weapon since the ability applies to the entire unit for the entire dice roll (aka the unit's Hit roll).
I don't see how there is any "single MD" interpretation from any part of the codex, so I am curious what I am missing that people are so unsure about.
The only potentially vague ruling imo would be whether performing the additional AoF granted by an ability such as Triumph of Saint Katherine's Icon of the Valorous Heart (which allows you to perform an AoF "even if you have already performed one or more AoF in that phase") counts as using your single AoF for the phase if it is performed first. Personally, I don't think this was how the ability was intended to be designed, and instead counts the the AoF globally as an "additional" AoF, allowing you to still perform your normal AoF for that phase.
Because at the core you roll attacks one at a time. One model rolls to hit, to wound, save, damage. So by the time you roll for 2nd first roll is over. Fast dice rolling is optional rule and can't be used when it affects results like plasma gun in rapid. You can't fast roll 20 plasma shots.
Raw only multiple dice for single roll sisters have is charge roll. Or melta but that would be stupid.
And even on most generous ruling damage you never get multiple. Opponent rolls 1 save, you roll damage(1 roll), he rolls 1 save, you roll damage(2nd roll).
And even on most generous ruling damage you never get multiple. Opponent rolls 1 save, you roll damage(1 roll), he rolls 1 save, you roll damage(2nd roll).
But if we keep pretending we can, eventually it becomes true, just like replacing keywords with whatever you want in the beta codex!
And even on most generous ruling damage you never get multiple. Opponent rolls 1 save, you roll damage(1 roll), he rolls 1 save, you roll damage(2nd roll).
But if we keep pretending we can, eventually it becomes true, just like replacing keywords with whatever you want in the beta codex!
To be fair, it works. Look back at 7th edition. The immolator never had a hatch. Someone sent a FAQ to GW: How many firepoints does the immolator have? They responded with 1.
Someone actually looked at the datasheet that said "Firepoints: None" and went, Hmm.. I wonder how many that is. Let's ask.
tneva82 wrote: Because at the core you roll attacks one at a time. One model rolls to hit, to wound, save, damage. So by the time you roll for 2nd first roll is over. Fast dice rolling is optional rule and can't be used when it affects results like plasma gun in rapid. You can't fast roll 20 plasma shots.
Raw only multiple dice for single roll sisters have is charge roll. Or melta but that would be stupid.
And even on most generous ruling damage you never get multiple. Opponent rolls 1 save, you roll damage(1 roll), he rolls 1 save, you roll damage(2nd roll).
Ok, ty, this makes sense. The way I read it was that it applied to a model/unit's dice roll(s) for the chosen roll for the phase, but I can see rolling individually screws that up if it doesn't apply as a blanket effect.
tneva82 wrote: Because at the core you roll attacks one at a time. One model rolls to hit, to wound, save, damage. So by the time you roll for 2nd first roll is over. Fast dice rolling is optional rule and can't be used when it affects results like plasma gun in rapid. You can't fast roll 20 plasma shots.
Except you can because 20 plasma shots meets the criteria for fast rolling
"In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls."
Unless there was an faq about fast rolling I missed?
tneva82 wrote: Because at the core you roll attacks one at a time. One model rolls to hit, to wound, save, damage. So by the time you roll for 2nd first roll is over. Fast dice rolling is optional rule and can't be used when it affects results like plasma gun in rapid. You can't fast roll 20 plasma shots.
Except you can because 20 plasma shots meets the criteria for fast rolling
"In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls."
Unless there was an faq about fast rolling I missed?
So you really think you can roll 20 dice and remove 1 plasma gunner per TWO 1's rolled?
So this is less a tactics question and more a reading comprehension question. I finally have had time to dig through the new codex and...I just am having trouble reading the data sheets.
I don't want to copy paste full stats, but for example:
-Battle Sisters Squad is 1 Superior and 4 Sisters. It can ADDITIONALLY take UP TO 5 sisters, or UP TO 10 sisters.
What does this mean? I know it has power level set, but does it mean what it literally says - you can have a squad of 1 superior and 5 battle sisters for +2 power level? or up to 1 superior and 10 sisters?
I dug up my old index and it says "It may contain UP TO 5 ADDITIONAL battle sisters, or UP TO 10 ADDITIONAL battle sisters." Is the new codex just saying that again, but in a barely readable fashion? Because the way they word it the new codex sounds like a hard limit on an 11 strong unit, while the index allowed for up to 15, but I just don't know if my reading comprehension has died.
Also, a lot of the war gear setups make little mental sense to me. Still using Battle Sister Squad as example:
-Superior may have 1 melee weapon, OR she may replace her bolt gun with a melee weapon
-Superior may replace her bolt gun with a ranged weapon
-Superior may replace her bolt pistol with a pistol weapon
The last one makes sense to me just fine, but the first two just seem...confusing to the point of being confusing. So your squad leader can A) have melee weapon with bolt gun obviously, B) REPLACE her bolt gun with a melee weapon (bolt guns cost zero points...what would the point of this be?), C) Not take a melee weapon and replace her bolt gun with a ranged weapon, or D) Take a melee weapon and then replace her bolt gun with a ranged weapon.
Is this correct? And if so, why do they go out of their way to make B an option? I mean bolt guns aren't the hottest weapon out there but for 0 points there is no point in not taking it for the random pot shot. Seems like it is A) Melee set up, B) Melee set up while pointlessly gimping yourself, C) Ranged or Budget option, and D) Going all in.
I'm just trying to parse through what exactly this codex is telling me, as I am honestly having trouble reading it in places. And since most of the datasheets have the same two above formula, it is being an uphill battle for me.
kurhanik wrote: So this is less a tactics question and more a reading comprehension question. I finally have had time to dig through the new codex and...I just am having trouble reading the data sheets.
I don't want to copy paste full stats, but for example:
-Battle Sisters Squad is 1 Superior and 4 Sisters. It can ADDITIONALLY take UP TO 5 sisters, or UP TO 10 sisters.
What does this mean? I know it has power level set, but does it mean what it literally says - you can have a squad of 1 superior and 5 battle sisters for +2 power level? or up to 1 superior and 10 sisters?
You can have 5 more sisters for 2 PL more than you pay for standard. Or additional 10 for the PL mentioned.
Also, a lot of the war gear setups make little mental sense to me. Still using Battle Sister Squad as example:
-Superior may have 1 melee weapon, OR she may replace her bolt gun with a melee weapon
-Superior may replace her bolt gun with a ranged weapon
-Superior may replace her bolt pistol with a pistol weapon
The last one makes sense to me just fine, but the first two just seem...confusing to the point of being confusing. So your squad leader can A) have melee weapon with bolt gun obviously, B) REPLACE her bolt gun with a melee weapon (bolt guns cost zero points...what would the point of this be?), C) Not take a melee weapon and replace her bolt gun with a ranged weapon, or D) Take a melee weapon and then replace her bolt gun with a ranged weapon.
WYSIWYG most likely. There are models with melee weapon but no bolt gun which GW caters for. But yes for efficiency you will ensure your model with melee weapon has bolter SOMEWHERE.
Of course logically bolter+melee weapon would cost more than bolter or cc weapon but GW has driven points down so much that there's not enough scalability. 1 pts for bolter or chainsword would be too expensive for 9 pts model. GW really, really, really, REALLY needs to like double or triple cost of everything(including game size. So you would be playing 6000 pts but basic sister costs ~27 pts). This way there would be some better scalability especially on the bottom side.
kurhanik wrote: So this is less a tactics question and more a reading comprehension question. I finally have had time to dig through the new codex and...I just am having trouble reading the data sheets.
I don't want to copy paste full stats, but for example:
-Battle Sisters Squad is 1 Superior and 4 Sisters. It can ADDITIONALLY take UP TO 5 sisters, or UP TO 10 sisters.
What does this mean? I know it has power level set, but does it mean what it literally says - you can have a squad of 1 superior and 5 battle sisters for +2 power level? or up to 1 superior and 10 sisters?
You can have 5 more sisters for 2 PL more than you pay for standard. Or additional 10 for the PL mentioned.
Ok, fair enough. I just was staring at that trying to decipher it. I was thinking that was how it went, but I kept getting caught up with it saying "ADDITIONALLY CAN TAKE UP TO 5", which just sounds to me like well, up to the number 5 total.
Also, a lot of the war gear setups make little mental sense to me. Still using Battle Sister Squad as example:
-Superior may have 1 melee weapon, OR she may replace her bolt gun with a melee weapon
-Superior may replace her bolt gun with a ranged weapon
-Superior may replace her bolt pistol with a pistol weapon
The last one makes sense to me just fine, but the first two just seem...confusing to the point of being confusing. So your squad leader can A) have melee weapon with bolt gun obviously, B) REPLACE her bolt gun with a melee weapon (bolt guns cost zero points...what would the point of this be?), C) Not take a melee weapon and replace her bolt gun with a ranged weapon, or D) Take a melee weapon and then replace her bolt gun with a ranged weapon.
WYSIWYG most likely. There are models with melee weapon but no bolt gun which GW caters for. But yes for efficiency you will ensure your model with melee weapon has bolter SOMEWHERE.
Of course logically bolter+melee weapon would cost more than bolter or cc weapon but GW has driven points down so much that there's not enough scalability. 1 pts for bolter or chainsword would be too expensive for 9 pts model. GW really, really, really, REALLY needs to like double or triple cost of everything(including game size. So you would be playing 6000 pts but basic sister costs ~27 pts). This way there would be some better scalability especially on the bottom side.
Ah, that makes enough sense. I just wasn't sure if there was some extra meaning or reading I was missing out on there or was going over my head. And agreed on the granularity of points costs in the game.
Plenty of other "may take" 0 pts things in game. Big ones personally affecting me is ork tankbusta bombs. 1 per 10 in boyz may take them. 0 pts. No reason whatsoever not to take except if you don't have models(which i don't). So basically because my models were assembled years ago when no such upgrade on boyz i'm disadvantaged. Grumble grumble. But with scalability what would be fair price? 5 pts? Seeing how rarely i have had chance to use it those would be taken off generally...
Another is bombs for deth koptas. Again totally pointless not to take additional weapon that causes mortal wounds for free.
tneva82 wrote: Because at the core you roll attacks one at a time. One model rolls to hit, to wound, save, damage. So by the time you roll for 2nd first roll is over. Fast dice rolling is optional rule and can't be used when it affects results like plasma gun in rapid. You can't fast roll 20 plasma shots.
Except you can because 20 plasma shots meets the criteria for fast rolling
"In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls."
Unless there was an faq about fast rolling I missed?
So you really think you can roll 20 dice and remove 1 plasma gunner per TWO 1's rolled?
Lol no.
We play optional fast rolls on plasma and just assume each 1 is a dead model, seems to work.
tneva82 wrote: Because at the core you roll attacks one at a time. One model rolls to hit, to wound, save, damage. So by the time you roll for 2nd first roll is over. Fast dice rolling is optional rule and can't be used when it affects results like plasma gun in rapid. You can't fast roll 20 plasma shots.
Except you can because 20 plasma shots meets the criteria for fast rolling
"In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls."
Unless there was an faq about fast rolling I missed?
So you really think you can roll 20 dice and remove 1 plasma gunner per TWO 1's rolled?
Lol no.
Is a strawman your only defense? I've shown rules showing permission that you can. So far you have "nu uh cause I said so"
Sisters can even bring 20 plasma in a single unit so why even use it as an example?
kurhanik wrote: So this is less a tactics question and more a reading comprehension question. I finally have had time to dig through the new codex and...I just am having trouble reading the data sheets.
I don't want to copy paste full stats, but for example:
-Battle Sisters Squad is 1 Superior and 4 Sisters. It can ADDITIONALLY take UP TO 5 sisters, or UP TO 10 sisters.
What does this mean? I know it has power level set, but does it mean what it literally says - you can have a squad of 1 superior and 5 battle sisters for +2 power level? or up to 1 superior and 10 sisters?
You can have 5 more sisters for 2 PL more than you pay for standard. Or additional 10 for the PL mentioned.
Ok, fair enough. I just was staring at that trying to decipher it. I was thinking that was how it went, but I kept getting caught up with it saying "ADDITIONALLY CAN TAKE UP TO 5", which just sounds to me like well, up to the number 5 total.
Also, a lot of the war gear setups make little mental sense to me. Still using Battle Sister Squad as example:
-Superior may have 1 melee weapon, OR she may replace her bolt gun with a melee weapon
-Superior may replace her bolt gun with a ranged weapon
-Superior may replace her bolt pistol with a pistol weapon
The last one makes sense to me just fine, but the first two just seem...confusing to the point of being confusing. So your squad leader can A) have melee weapon with bolt gun obviously, B) REPLACE her bolt gun with a melee weapon (bolt guns cost zero points...what would the point of this be?), C) Not take a melee weapon and replace her bolt gun with a ranged weapon, or D) Take a melee weapon and then replace her bolt gun with a ranged weapon.
WYSIWYG most likely. There are models with melee weapon but no bolt gun which GW caters for. But yes for efficiency you will ensure your model with melee weapon has bolter SOMEWHERE.
Of course logically bolter+melee weapon would cost more than bolter or cc weapon but GW has driven points down so much that there's not enough scalability. 1 pts for bolter or chainsword would be too expensive for 9 pts model. GW really, really, really, REALLY needs to like double or triple cost of everything(including game size. So you would be playing 6000 pts but basic sister costs ~27 pts). This way there would be some better scalability especially on the bottom side.
Ah, that makes enough sense. I just wasn't sure if there was some extra meaning or reading I was missing out on there or was going over my head. And agreed on the granularity of points costs in the game.
Don't even get me started on the Repentia Superior's optional Bolt Pistol...
But the problem with pointing such things is it doesn't really add anything to game.
Anyway, this is at risk of going off topic quickly. How do people who do run Arcos, run them?
Anyway, this is at risk of going off topic quickly. How do people who do run Arcos, run them?
Yes, please. These and Repentia are two units that I never invested in over the quarter century (!) I've been playing Sisters. Now that I've got a few of each from the Army Box I'll stuff them all in a Rhino with a Preacher and maybe a Bloody Rose Canoness, but it obviously won't stop there once the individual kits drop. Are Arcos the preferred unit and Rhinos the preferred delivery method?
Anyway, this is at risk of going off topic quickly. How do people who do run Arcos, run them?
Yes, please. These and Repentia are two units that I never invested in over the quarter century (!) I've been playing Sisters. Now that I've got a few of each from the Army Box I'll stuff them all in a Rhino with a Preacher and maybe a Bloody Rose Canoness, but it obviously won't stop there once the individual kits drop. Are Arcos the preferred unit and Rhinos the preferred delivery method?
Arcos will blend their way through most soft and medium targets if they get there, but Repentia are what you want if you're going tank/monster/knight hunting. Both have a good purpose, though I think Arcos fill the bigger need.
antibullyranger wrote: Quite confused what the entire discussion regarding the "single MD" vs "multiple MD" interpretation is about.
According to the codex, you may perform a single act of faith per phase for the listed types of die rolls (advance, hits, wounds, etc.). Before making a roll for a model or unit with the Acts of Faith ability, you can choose one or more dice from your MD pool instead. Set these dice aside, and roll the rest. If you are rolling for hits for a unit with multiple weapon types, you could use multiple dice for each type of weapon since the ability applies to the entire unit for the entire dice roll (aka the unit's Hit roll).
I don't see how there is any "single MD" interpretation from any part of the codex, so I am curious what I am missing that people are so unsure about.
The only potentially vague ruling imo would be whether performing the additional AoF granted by an ability such as Triumph of Saint Katherine's Icon of the Valorous Heart (which allows you to perform an AoF "even if you have already performed one or more AoF in that phase") counts as using your single AoF for the phase if it is performed first. Personally, I don't think this was how the ability was intended to be designed, and instead counts the the AoF globally as an "additional" AoF, allowing you to still perform your normal AoF for that phase.
Fast Dice. It's a little confusing but each attack die is technically a separate attack. You just have the option to roll them together when it makes no practical difference. Since the replacement of a die is being done to a single roll.... and each die is a single roll technically... You couldnt just choose to hit 5 times with 5 miracle dice in one volley. You could choose to hit on one of those rolls.
So the only time multiple Mircale Dice can be used at one time is when charging because this IS one roll, not two separate events.
Anyway, this is at risk of going off topic quickly. How do people who do run Arcos, run them?
Yes, please. These and Repentia are two units that I never invested in over the quarter century (!) I've been playing Sisters. Now that I've got a few of each from the Army Box I'll stuff them all in a Rhino with a Preacher and maybe a Bloody Rose Canoness, but it obviously won't stop there once the individual kits drop. Are Arcos the preferred unit and Rhinos the preferred delivery method?
Arcos will blend their way through most soft and medium targets if they get there, but Repentia are what you want if you're going tank/monster/knight hunting. Both have a good purpose, though I think Arcos fill the bigger need.
antibullyranger wrote: Quite confused what the entire discussion regarding the "single MD" vs "multiple MD" interpretation is about.
According to the codex, you may perform a single act of faith per phase for the listed types of die rolls (advance, hits, wounds, etc.). Before making a roll for a model or unit with the Acts of Faith ability, you can choose one or more dice from your MD pool instead. Set these dice aside, and roll the rest. If you are rolling for hits for a unit with multiple weapon types, you could use multiple dice for each type of weapon since the ability applies to the entire unit for the entire dice roll (aka the unit's Hit roll).
I don't see how there is any "single MD" interpretation from any part of the codex, so I am curious what I am missing that people are so unsure about.
The only potentially vague ruling imo would be whether performing the additional AoF granted by an ability such as Triumph of Saint Katherine's Icon of the Valorous Heart (which allows you to perform an AoF "even if you have already performed one or more AoF in that phase") counts as using your single AoF for the phase if it is performed first. Personally, I don't think this was how the ability was intended to be designed, and instead counts the the AoF globally as an "additional" AoF, allowing you to still perform your normal AoF for that phase.
Fast Dice. It's a little confusing but each attack die is technically a separate attack. You just have the option to roll them together when it makes no practical difference. Since the replacement of a die is being done to a single roll.... and each die is a single roll technically... You couldnt just choose to hit 5 times with 5 miracle dice in one volley. You could choose to hit on one of those rolls.
So the only time multiple Mircale Dice can be used at one time is when charging because this IS one roll, not two separate events.
Anyway, this is at risk of going off topic quickly. How do people who do run Arcos, run them?
Yes, please. These and Repentia are two units that I never invested in over the quarter century (!) I've been playing Sisters. Now that I've got a few of each from the Army Box I'll stuff them all in a Rhino with a Preacher and maybe a Bloody Rose Canoness, but it obviously won't stop there once the individual kits drop. Are Arcos the preferred unit and Rhinos the preferred delivery method?
Arcos will blend their way through most soft and medium targets if they get there, but Repentia are what you want if you're going tank/monster/knight hunting. Both have a good purpose, though I think Arcos fill the bigger need.
Arcos are really really good. Still.
That's not how fast dice work.
Per RAW, fast dice replaces the attack sequence up to the allocation step entirely. As of the battle primer, it is NOT just a convenience rule. It makes a big practical difference in this one specific case because it allows for even the strictest interpretation of AoF to replace all dice used in a fast dice eligible roll.
Also, in Tneva's example...yeah, technically that's how plasma works raw. Don't blame us, blame the 40k writing team for writing an inferior attack sequence.
And the problem is that the ability WASN'T designed. It was copy pasted from AoS's destiny dice rule and altered just enough to make it seem different, without taking into account the fact that 40k uses an entirely different attack sequence than AoS does.
Per RAW, fast dice replaces the attack sequence up to the allocation step entirely. As of the battle primer, it is NOT just a convenience rule. It makes a big practical difference in this one specific case because it allows for even the strictest interpretation of AoF to replace all dice used in a fast dice eligible roll.
Doesn't really make a difference since the battle primer still says "..then make all the hit rolls at the same time..." even assuming it completely replaces the normal hit roll rules, it's still multiple hit rolls and aof only allows us to interfere in a single one.
Per RAW, fast dice replaces the attack sequence up to the allocation step entirely. As of the battle primer, it is NOT just a convenience rule. It makes a big practical difference in this one specific case because it allows for even the strictest interpretation of AoF to replace all dice used in a fast dice eligible roll.
Doesn't really make a difference since the battle primer still says "..then make all the hit rolls at the same time..." even assuming it completely replaces the normal hit roll rules, it's still multiple hit rolls and aof only allows us to interfere in a single one.
There's a YMDC thread on this already so that's probably the better place (and I think most of the rules lawyers said you could replace multiple so it might be worth a read). I think LVO said you could replace multiple too, so you likely can under the ITC ruleset.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lash92 wrote: Btw the LVO judge team also ruled that you just can use a single MD per shooting phase and not replacing multiple.
Pretty sure this was the other way around. From the questioner's Facebook post:
submitted some questions to the LVO team for the upcoming tournament concerning the new sisters of battle codex. Here are their responses. Note that this is not GW and is only applicable to LVO. Also it looks like we will not have a GWFAQ in time for the LVO since they indicated they would publish one after the full release (which is in early 2020).
1. For performing an act of faith, can I use multiple miracle dice when I am “fast dice rolling” for multiple models in a unit or is it limited to one model for the AoF? Yes, as this detailed in the rules for using Miracle Dice. You simply set aside the dice that are being rolled normally and assign the values to those dice being substituted by your Miracle Dice.
@Grundz
It is the world largest 40k tournament and several of the TOs are playtester for GW. I think they have a clear understanding on how the rules work and are intended to work ;-)
@ Audustum
The first post made was missleading. Check Matt Roots comments:
1.
I've been pinged as an LVO judge about this thread. There has been some confusion about the wording of faith dice and how they are used.
To be clear: For the sake of LVO judging, we have ruled that you will use 1 dice per roll. For example, if you roll to hit with 4 meltas, a miracle dice could be used for ONE of those shots. The other three would roll normally.
2.
Furthermore, you are limited to 1 dice per phase. Fast dice does not overrule this. You could not "fast roll" the four meltas above and use 4 miracle dice, you would be limited to one
lash92 wrote: @Grundz
It is the world largest 40k tournament and several of the TOs are playtester for GW. I think they have a clear understanding on how the rules work and are intended to work ;-)
@ Audustum
The first post made was missleading. Check Matt Roots comments:
1.
I've been pinged as an LVO judge about this thread. There has been some confusion about the wording of faith dice and how they are used.
To be clear: For the sake of LVO judging, we have ruled that you will use 1 dice per roll. For example, if you roll to hit with 4 meltas, a miracle dice could be used for ONE of those shots. The other three would roll normally.
2.
Furthermore, you are limited to 1 dice per phase. Fast dice does not overrule this. You could not "fast roll" the four meltas above and use 4 miracle dice, you would be limited to one
This ruling is pretty clear cut imo.
Finally, a decision has been made so we can avoid this multiple dice nonsense. This is by far the best we can get until GW answers the asinine silly questions from people who still can't understand that this is 40k, not AoS.
Sim-Life wrote: So looks like an exorcist can hide in the battle sanctum if you face the open sode towards you since it has loads of windows. Thats nice.
Now that is what I'd call a battle church. Looks like it's big enough for a ret squad or two too.
lash92 wrote: @Grundz
It is the world largest 40k tournament and several of the TOs are playtester for GW. I think they have a clear understanding on how the rules work and are intended to work ;-)
I know they do, I'm sure that an answer that someone doesn't want is just going to be disregarded at this point
lash92 wrote: @Grundz
It is the world largest 40k tournament and several of the TOs are playtester for GW. I think they have a clear understanding on how the rules work and are intended to work ;-)
I know they do, I'm sure that an answer that someone doesn't want is just going to be disregarded at this point
Oh, sure - but we can ignore that hypothetical person pretty easily for the time being. If you're looking for insight from what works and what doesn't by analysing the competitive scene, then not only must you parse a lot of data through an ITC lens, but you'll now need to consider these lists under a definitive statement on MD - attacks are one at a time, so replacing rolls is one dice.
ITC bs aside, that turns any insight provided by people who use their own house rules like multiple MD effectively worthless outliers.
...or it means wishful thinking overtakes WAAC sorts who would otherwise be reasonable about it. People who are perfectly well aware of how the rule works will argue how "ambiguous" it is when wishful thinking overtakes them.
Some people confuse plausible with probable. ITC and GW have to deal with these intentionally obtuse folks. So even rules that are perfectly clear require their parent-like intervention just to shut the WAAC crowd up for the benefit of everyone else... not because it truly needed it.
Uh no they didn't write it umambiguously. And FAQ is full of answers to what aren't unclear because people ask silly stuff. You know definition of FAQ? Frequently Asked Question. Just because lots of people ask silly questions about clear rules doesn't make text unambigious. Just that people are incapable of reading or are hoping for power boost.
"Q: If a rule states that an ability triggers on, for example, ‘hit rolls of 6+’, does this refer to the result of the dice rolls before or after modifiers are applied?"
Yeah real unclear. Yet lots of people asked this.
For once rules actually are clear with the MD. But people are wanting more power so they keep asking asking asking hoping to get free power boost. Not because it's unclear but because it's benefitial for the players so rather than accepting clear rule they are trying to get it be different.
tneva82 wrote: Same as deploying any other unit from your army
I'm wondering if the statue is a separate part or if it has to be connected to the walkway on the second floor. I hope not cause it'll make it impossible to hide an exorcist in the ground level. The wings look too curved to be physically connected to the building IMO so hopefully its a separate bit.
tneva82 wrote: Same as deploying any other unit from your army
I'm wondering if the statue is a separate part or if it has to be connected to the walkway on the second floor. I hope not cause it'll make it impossible to hide an exorcist in the ground level. The wings look too curved to be physically connected to the building IMO so hopefully its a separate bit.
That's more about how I was wondering like an aegis defense line or what. It does look like the statue is separate
I plan on building my own Battle Sanctum to match my home table... what would you all guess to be the conventional wisdom on "counts as" playability? Should I match it in every dimension or just try to get it close? To be fair, my games are pretty casual, but I always try to take a conservative line on proxies and such out of respect for my opponents. Would you show up to a tournament with a homemade Sanctum?
Also curious who's definitely bringing one, definitely not, or maybe trying a proxy to see how it plays...
MacPhail wrote: I plan on building my own Battle Sanctum to match my home table... what would you all guess to be the conventional wisdom on "counts as" playability? Should I match it in every dimension or just try to get it close? To be fair, my games are pretty casual, but I always try to take a conservative line on proxies and such out of respect for my opponents. Would you show up to a tournament with a homemade Sanctum?
Also curious who's definitely bringing one, definitely not, or maybe trying a proxy to see how it plays...
I'll probably fit ones in lists where I can as it means not being tied to the Beacon of Faith warlord trait as well as not losing it if your opponent kills your warlord. As for home made santums its TOs discretion. As long as its roughly the right dimensions I wouldn't have a problem but I'm a garage player.
I'll probably fit ones in lists where I can as it means not being tied to the Beacon of Faith warlord trait as well as not losing it if your opponent kills your warlord.
ZergSmasher wrote: Okay, looks like you completely destroyed those guys. Were they noobs or had bad lists or something?
Actually I'm curious as to what your list was and what their lists were that gave such one-sided games.
Sure. First game was a "getting his GK list sorted out" contest. The GK game was more of an ITC lesson and working on his list. So we did three rounds before he conceded. The tabling was well under way.
Last two were experienced. Guys Ive never played before but they seemed to know their stuff.
Salamander was armored up. Couple predators (one a fw variant) play Bray'arth, 3 squads and then hestan, tech piest, venerable and what i think were ironclads. That was his core.
His plan was to smash my tanks to tiny bits round one, and hold his ground until the termies could drop and kill the other. Those dreads were all bad news. Lot of volume of fire in there. So because of the vanguard deploy, i had a long way to slog into unforgiving territory. Round 1 wasnt much. Miracle dice saved my tanks early and then we went to work late. Pretty well dominated the board.
Third game was a really nice blood angel force w the new hotness. Mephiston, contemptor dread, some kind of character dread (Chaplain), predator plus meeeean primaris snd a couple inceptor units. Daredeo dread i never did more then 1 wound to. Scout squad for engineers. Sanguinary gusrd and some fnp buff characters, etc... that firebase oh his was pretty fierce lotta shots so i kept tying it up so it couldnt do its damage.
Note that i forgot my arcos and my missionary at home and had to play without them.
Kryddbov wrote: Can a Sororitas Rhino transport units from a different order?
Ex: can a Valarous Heart rhino transport Bloody Rose units?
Nope. If it's sororita unit(aprt from dialogus or medic) you need order.
What you CAN do though is have say valorous heart rhino carrying bloody rose arco flagelants as flagelants aren't sororita unit so not order locked. Handy if you have flagelants for bloody rose vanguard to fill the elite slots. Bit tougher rhino transport.
Got to use my sisters for the first time a few days ago. Janky little 1000pts list with a mix of stormtroopers/Inquisitor/and VH sisters made from the starter set and some bits and bobs a friend sold me. Fought an Alpha Legion list with lots of marines and the daemon engine melee things with all the tentacles. Lots of fun though, initial impressions
Holy crap repentia are good, especially with proper buffs. I had 2 4 woman squads but with an imagifier, preacher, and the mistress buffing them they hit like a train. If 4 of them do this much damage, can't wait to see what full squads do. Getting the miracle dice from them dying was also good.
Stormtroopers are an awesome backup for sisters and fit fluffwise. They can get plasma the sisters can't and can drop in where ever you need them. Since my sisters were all on foot that was a big deal. Inquisitor didn't do a lot but that was my fault.
VH didn't do much vs CSM, he didn't have much ap 1 or 2, so a lot of the time I just had my 3+ anyways. Tried the smash Canoness, seems good but I want to try other stuff like the invuln buff one, probably be more useful overall.
Lesson learned was I desperately need special and heavy weapons. All my sisters were barebones and it hurt. Same for the seraphim. Even just some inferno pistols for seraphim would've made all the difference.
Other than that, really like how they play, miracle dice seem really good, but I'm sure I missed several good uses for them. They were great for protecting my characters if nothing else and ensuring I could get some clutch plasma pistol shots off. Just need to see how the FAQ rules their usage in the shooting and melee phase. I think I played it wrong to be perfectly honest at a couple of points. Like one point where I burned 3 to guarantee I got a few wounds with my canoness.
MrMoustaffa wrote: Holy crap repentia are good, especially with proper buffs. I had 2 4 woman squads but with an imagifier, preacher, and the mistress buffing them they hit like a train. If 4 of them do this much damage, can't wait to see what full squads do. Getting the miracle dice from them dying was also good.
Fully buffed up eats an imperial knight in one go. That's what they can do
Issue will be getting them as unsurprisingly they are prime target sporting just 6++/5++ to protect them. Due to being so hard hitting with no way to make T1 charge and being so soft they are going to be targeted a lot. Against marines with their TFC's ignoring LOS can't even use terrain to hide. Rhino is about mandatory for that reason but even that's not sure way.
Maybe not investing that much buffs could be option. They are fairly cheap unit and do world of hurt without tons of buffs anyway so let them distract enemy. Meanwhile if opponent kill them the support is out of picture as well generally.
I feel like VH isn't nearly as good to build around if you're not against Tournament Marines. There's only 1.5 marine players in my group so VH's value has almost completely comes from the 6+++ rather than the AP
Tau has plenty -2 shooting, orks have plenty of shooting that's not 0 or -3 or better. IG throws around plenty -1/-2.
The one faction which isn't throwing tons of -1/-2 around is necrons who throw either 0 or -4 generally. But necrons are hardly the big thing right now.
tneva82 wrote: Tau has plenty -2 shooting, orks have plenty of shooting that's not 0 or -3 or better. IG throws around plenty -1/-2.
The one faction which isn't throwing tons of -1/-2 around is necrons who throw either 0 or -4 generally. But necrons are hardly the big thing right now.
Thing is usually if infantry is getting hit by -1 or -2 it usually lowish strength high volume so weight of dice carries enough damage through. Maybe its because I've been using VH and MSU? One casualty is more of an issue for MSU VH than if I was fielding units of 10.
Sim-Life wrote: Thing is usually if infantry is getting hit by -1 or -2 it usually lowish strength high volume so weight of dice carries enough damage through. Maybe its because I've been using VH and MSU? One casualty is more of an issue for MSU VH than if I was fielding units of 10.
The storm bolters is cheap so even if I might lose storm bolter or two sooner I still rather than 10 bodies and 4 storm bolters than 10 and 2. Extra firepower compensates(enemy can't kill you if they are dead). Plus less casualties with morale.
Durability wise MSU helps rather than hinders. Now with retributors with multimelta's and maybe BSS squad with meltaguns sure extra bodies are nice to have. But for BSS you want to keep small and numerous guns. Unless you plan to use some stratagem.
ZergSmasher wrote: Okay, looks like you completely destroyed those guys. Were they noobs or had bad lists or something?
Actually I'm curious as to what your list was and what their lists were that gave such one-sided games.
Sure. First game was a "getting his GK list sorted out" contest. The GK game was more of an ITC lesson and working on his list. So we did three rounds before he conceded. The tabling was well under way.
Last two were experienced. Guys Ive never played before but they seemed to know their stuff.
Salamander was armored up. Couple predators (one a fw variant) play Bray'arth, 3 squads and then hestan, tech piest, venerable and what i think were ironclads. That was his core.
His plan was to smash my tanks to tiny bits round one, and hold his ground until the termies could drop and kill the other. Those dreads were all bad news. Lot of volume of fire in there. So because of the vanguard deploy, i had a long way to slog into unforgiving territory. Round 1 wasnt much. Miracle dice saved my tanks early and then we went to work late. Pretty well dominated the board.
Third game was a really nice blood angel force w the new hotness. Mephiston, contemptor dread, some kind of character dread (Chaplain), predator plus meeeean primaris snd a couple inceptor units. Daredeo dread i never did more then 1 wound to. Scout squad for engineers. Sanguinary gusrd and some fnp buff characters, etc... that firebase oh his was pretty fierce lotta shots so i kept tying it up so it couldnt do its damage.
Note that i forgot my arcos and my missionary at home and had to play without them.
Interesting. What lead you to that list over for example a pure brigade or a different split, say for example sticking the rets in the VH detachment and going with a BR seraphim/repentia focused detachment in lue of AS doms/rets?
Ignoring AP on VH is just one of the two major bonuses. Having moving excorists with no penalty to hit even if your opponent stacks modifiers is incredibly powerful and helps us solve one of our worst matchups, Eldar.
With miracle die you're knocking a bird out every turn with just one exo. Conceivably can knock 2 out without issue as well.
ZergSmasher wrote: Okay, looks like you completely destroyed those guys. Were they noobs or had bad lists or something?
Actually I'm curious as to what your list was and what their lists were that gave such one-sided games.
Sure. First game was a "getting his GK list sorted out" contest. The GK game was more of an ITC lesson and working on his list. So we did three rounds before he conceded. The tabling was well under way.
Last two were experienced. Guys Ive never played before but they seemed to know their stuff.
Salamander was armored up. Couple predators (one a fw variant) play Bray'arth, 3 squads and then hestan, tech piest, venerable and what i think were ironclads. That was his core.
His plan was to smash my tanks to tiny bits round one, and hold his ground until the termies could drop and kill the other. Those dreads were all bad news. Lot of volume of fire in there. So because of the vanguard deploy, i had a long way to slog into unforgiving territory. Round 1 wasnt much. Miracle dice saved my tanks early and then we went to work late. Pretty well dominated the board.
Third game was a really nice blood angel force w the new hotness. Mephiston, contemptor dread, some kind of character dread (Chaplain), predator plus meeeean primaris snd a couple inceptor units. Daredeo dread i never did more then 1 wound to. Scout squad for engineers. Sanguinary gusrd and some fnp buff characters, etc... that firebase oh his was pretty fierce lotta shots so i kept tying it up so it couldnt do its damage.
Note that i forgot my arcos and my missionary at home and had to play without them.
Interesting. What lead you to that list over for example a pure brigade or a different split, say for example sticking the rets in the VH detachment and going with a BR seraphim/repentia focused detachment in lue of AS doms/rets?
Dominion can easily get to rapid fire range with their very effective storm bolter strat. Multimeltas easily get to within 18" juice range w their strat if they need to. Argent Shroud is fast and with Miracle dice, can be even faster. Saves all those rhino points. Lot of firepower when you add it to 3 exorcists. Overwhelming anti-tank or multiwound damage output. In the Primaris age, you need a lot of hitting power, and you can only optimize units once, so it makes sense to spread the hurt and not get greedy.
Arco-flagellents are money. 54 attacks does the trick usually so i have the offense without giving up the deadly speed. Seraphim are neat because they can GET THERE and deliver pain. If you can already do that? Its something to think about.
So I've been tinkering with an army/shopping list. Thinking about Argent Shroud for the zoom-zoom (pure AS for thematics), and doing a battalion, brigade, and fortification
Battalion <Argent Shroud>
HQ Canoness w/ Blade of Admonition (spend 1 CP to give the Argent Shroud trait)
Missionary
Troops 3x10 Battle Sisters with 2 melta, Simulacrum, hand flamer on superior
Brigade <Argent Shroud>
HQ Celestine (warlord)
Canoness w/ power sword and rod
Missionary
Troops 3x5 Sisters with 1 meltagun
3x5 Sisters with 2 storm bolters
Elites Imagifier
Dialogus
3x5 Celestians
Heavy Support 3x10 Retributors, Simulacrum, 2x Armorium Cherubs, 4x multi-meltas
Fast Attack 2x5 Seraphim w/ 2 dual hand flamers
5 Seraphim w/ 2 dual inferno pistols
Battle Sanctum
That's 19 CP and a ton of bodies wielding a lot of meltas. Does it have legs or am I going to want a few more toys at the cost of some sisters?
Battle sanctum is perhaps an auto include when it arrives. People are already arguing its not a ruin. Le sigh. So thats going to be an argument for a minute but i don't see any way around it. Of course this loophole will require text. On a purely technical level, as long as you both agree its a ruin. Or not.
I still am missing why this is a big deal btw. To be clearer, because after re-reading my own post, I think I gave a wrong impression.
The question is... why is not being a ruin going to matter? Is there a rules interaction someone is trying to get around?
Jancoran wrote: Battle sanctum is perhaps an auto include when it arrives. People are already arguing its not a ruin, and so wont give ruin saves. Le sigh. So thats going to be an argument for a minute but i don't see any way around it. Of course this loophole will require text. On a purely technical level, as long as you both agree its a ruin, it is. It can't be "nothing". So... interesting problem.
What do you mean it won't give "ruin" saves? It has the exact same text that ruins have.
It may not be a auto include but it's very close
alextroy wrote: The Battle Sanctum is not a Ruin, it is a Adeptus Minstorum Structure.
What's an Adeptus Minstorum Structure you ask? A structure that has rules that match those of Ruins, but isn't Ruins.
One thing it not being ruin means though not something GW factored but with house rules 1st floor of ruins blocking LOS this one won't. Though probably better that way. Own los blocking terrain you could bring could likely be bit too much. It's already useful piece of terrain.
Rihgu wrote: So I've been tinkering with an army/shopping list. Thinking about Argent Shroud for the zoom-zoom (pure AS for thematics), and doing a battalion, brigade, and fortification
Spoiler:
Battalion <Argent Shroud>
HQ Canoness w/ Blade of Admonition (spend 1 CP to give the Argent Shroud trait)
Missionary
Troops 3x10 Battle Sisters with 2 melta, Simulacrum, hand flamer on superior
Brigade <Argent Shroud>
HQ Celestine (warlord)
Canoness w/ power sword and rod
Missionary
Troops 3x5 Sisters with 1 meltagun
3x5 Sisters with 2 storm bolters
Elites Imagifier
Dialogus
3x5 Celestians
Heavy Support 3x10 Retributors, Simulacrum, 2x Armorium Cherubs, 4x multi-meltas
Fast Attack 2x5 Seraphim w/ 2 dual hand flamers
5 Seraphim w/ 2 dual inferno pistols
Battle Sanctum
That's 19 CP and a ton of bodies wielding a lot of meltas. Does it have legs or am I going to want a few more toys at the cost of some sisters?
I'd take a third bare bones Canoness over Celestine and use those points on a second Blessed Blade rather than Power Sword and a few more toys. The Canoness can hide in the Battle Sanctum with the Becon(and Litanies) of Faith, buffing the Exorcists with their reroll 1s
I corrected my post because I think i was unclear. See above.
The argument seems imminent, but Im not detecting why. Some people have made a POINT of telling me it doesnt count as a ruin.... and it seems to me there's a motive behind doing that; perhaps some faq or rule interaction they are going to argue BECAUSE its not a ruin.
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tneva82 wrote: One thing it not being ruin means though not something GW factored but with house rules 1st floor of ruins blocking LOS this one won't. Though probably better that way. Own los blocking terrain you could bring could likely be bit too much. It's already useful piece of terrain.
Ooooh. Thaaaaats what this is about. Ok. That solves it. LOS... can be drawn through its gaps. Huh. Well...
Jancoran wrote: I corrected my post because I think i was unclear. See above.
The argument seems imminent, but Im not detecting why. Some people have made a POINT of telling me it doesnt count as a ruin.... and it seems to me there's a motive behind doing that; perhaps some faq or rule interaction they are going to argue BECAUSE its not a ruin.
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tneva82 wrote: One thing it not being ruin means though not something GW factored but with house rules 1st floor of ruins blocking LOS this one won't. Though probably better that way. Own los blocking terrain you could bring could likely be bit too much. It's already useful piece of terrain.
Ooooh. Thaaaaats what this is about. Ok. That solves it. LOS... can be drawn through its gaps. Huh. Well...
Yep. As it's specifically not ruin then any rule that says "ruins block LOS 1st floor regardless of gaps" would not apply to it unless specifically agreed. Obviously this is not something GW really is concerned with as it's house rule but does have impact and in this case I think it's appropriate. Ability to block LOS blocking terrain freely during deployment would be pretty darn good and possible GW even thought it shouldn't block so well so made it and trying to circumvene it by rule (or like I got suggested "close up windows") would be feel similar to modeling vehicles and models to block LOS when they don't normally.
The piece is useful enough as it is(rare for terrain) that I can live without los blocking.
Jancoran wrote: I corrected my post because I think i was unclear. See above.
The argument seems imminent, but Im not detecting why. Some people have made a POINT of telling me it doesnt count as a ruin.... and it seems to me there's a motive behind doing that; perhaps some faq or rule interaction they are going to argue BECAUSE its not a ruin.
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tneva82 wrote: One thing it not being ruin means though not something GW factored but with house rules 1st floor of ruins blocking LOS this one won't. Though probably better that way. Own los blocking terrain you could bring could likely be bit too much. It's already useful piece of terrain.
Ooooh. Thaaaaats what this is about. Ok. That solves it. LOS... can be drawn through its gaps. Huh. Well...
Yep. As it's specifically not ruin then any rule that says "ruins block LOS 1st floor regardless of gaps" would not apply to it unless specifically agreed. Obviously this is not something GW really is concerned with as it's house rule but does have impact and in this case I think it's appropriate. Ability to block LOS blocking terrain freely during deployment would be pretty darn good and possible GW even thought it shouldn't block so well so made it and trying to circumvene it by rule (or like I got suggested "close up windows") would be feel similar to modeling vehicles and models to block LOS when they don't normally.
The piece is useful enough as it is(rare for terrain) that I can live without los blocking.
Let's be very, very clear here.
The first floor of a ruin blocking line of sight is not a rule in 40k. It is a tournament house rule. Nothing more.
How it interacts with this unit will need to be handled by the relevant TO in whatever tournament you play in. Do not expect a unified approach here. Verify.
I think it would be a bonus if the ITC house rule didn't apply to it. You could set up an exorcist behind it and still get cover and able to fire from it
Oberron wrote: I think it would be a bonus if the ITC house rule didn't apply to it. You could set up an exorcist behind it and still get cover and able to fire from it
Its also fuzzy, that without a ground floor, what is defined as "in the terrain" and the statues placement doesn't appear to be absolute either(?)
Oberron wrote: I think it would be a bonus if the ITC house rule didn't apply to it. You could set up an exorcist behind it and still get cover and able to fire from it
Though issue then comes when is exorcist in it. It has no base. Not being infantry it needs to be in it and have 50% covered.
Considering buying several BSSs, but i dont know really how to equip them.
6x5 squads with 2 storm bolters each seems fine, but then?
Dominions 10-man squads with 4 sb?
BSS with combi melta + 2 melta?
Celestians w/ sb or melta?
jotace wrote: Considering buying several BSSs, but i dont know really how to equip them.
6x5 squads with 2 storm bolters each seems fine, but then?
Dominions 10-man squads with 4 sb?
BSS with combi melta + 2 melta?
Celestians w/ sb or melta?
You seem to have fairly little melta there. What is going to be your anti tank department? Retributions? Exorcists? Allies?
Got my first game today though as I was limited to 2 starter sets plus celestine(though proxied imagifier with 1 banner bearer) list wasn't that optimal but got to try at least. Obviously not good try with little good use for MD but there were couple neat things I did and one potential nice surprise move. There was repulsor down to 1 wound that I wanted to kill. I could have used 5 from my MD pool and then the 1 and use stratagem to auto wound the damn thing with blessed bolt. If he fails 5+ save repulsor dies and would have saved the helverin to shoot the hellblasters. Got to remember that one.
Got totally boxed in having botched choice of deployment zone. The corner zone with least amount of objectives nearby was lol-bad. Not aware blood angels got stratagem to heroic intervene with regular unit lost gallant when 4 aggressors heroic intervened into the mess. Yikes.
Got good stomping but got taste of rules and some idea on how things work. My 2+/can't wound better than 4+ canoness was taking eliminators and regular scouts like they were shooting at him throwing beans. But the reroll to wound warlord trait wans't that useful. I'll be bringing my list on saturday so maybe go for inv save boosting one instead. Would help especially with repentia(4++). Too bad the inv save provided by celestine to arco flagelants isn't boosted by that.
my plan is to buy 4 boxes to start, have 6 5 man squards with stormbolters. and 2 dominion squads with Melta's
6 here Plus 2 retribution boxes. Already notified local store what I'll be wanting so they know to order sufficient amount.
Combined with what I already have(2 start sets) I'll be building:
2x5 with storm bolters
1x6 with storm bolters and combi plasma plus banner
7 with storm bolters, inferno pistol, banner
8 with banner, 2 melta gun, combi melta
same except flamer
10 celestine with 2 melta gun, combi melta and banner
10 dominion w/4 storm bolters, combi plasma, banner
10xretributor w/4xheavy bolter
10xretributor w/4xmulti melta and banner
All banners have cerub's. This is 79 models so I have 11 unaccounted for. Could fill up squads somewhere or maybe go for melta dominion squad which does appeal.
With these and 2 imagifiers+2nd canoness(ordered the resin one already) will have first 2k pure sister list. Albeit still 2 penitent engines that stick out in otherwise infantry but hide behind terrain from lascannons etc for counter charge.
Jancoran wrote: I corrected my post because I think i was unclear. See above.
The argument seems imminent, but Im not detecting why. Some people have made a POINT of telling me it doesnt count as a ruin.... and it seems to me there's a motive behind doing that; perhaps some faq or rule interaction they are going to argue BECAUSE its not a ruin.
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tneva82 wrote: One thing it not being ruin means though not something GW factored but with house rules 1st floor of ruins blocking LOS this one won't. Though probably better that way. Own los blocking terrain you could bring could likely be bit too much. It's already useful piece of terrain.
Ooooh. Thaaaaats what this is about. Ok. That solves it. LOS... can be drawn through its gaps. Huh. Well...
Yep. As it's specifically not ruin then any rule that says "ruins block LOS 1st floor regardless of gaps" would not apply to it unless specifically agreed. Obviously this is not something GW really is concerned with as it's house rule but does have impact and in this case I think it's appropriate. Ability to block LOS blocking terrain freely during deployment would be pretty darn good and possible GW even thought it shouldn't block so well so made it and trying to circumvene it by rule (or like I got suggested "close up windows") would be feel similar to modeling vehicles and models to block LOS when they don't normally.
The piece is useful enough as it is(rare for terrain) that I can live without los blocking.
GW wont fix it because blocking first floor line of sight is an ITC thing, not a GW thing. So in anything outside of tournaments, talk to your opponent and see how they feel its fair. I have already argued this in the TO forum of the ITC. There is literally no physical nor rule difference between this and any other ruin SAVe for the fact that you and your opponent AS WITH ALL RUINS have to agree it is one.
There is no such thing as a ruin keyword. There never has been. It's player defined.
One thing that was pointed out was that Imperial soup lists would potentially all contain one if it were ruled a ruin. I just don't see this as game breaking. We could as easily have stuck a ruin there when we set up the board. So...honestly... I mean...
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Sim-Life wrote: Oh good. So thats something else thats going to become confusing when talking about tactics like the "only 3 detachments" thing.
AL MATCHED PLAY has the 3 detachment thing. so if its matched play then its matched play. Not that confusing.
my plan is to buy 4 boxes to start, have 6 5 man squards with stormbolters. and 2 dominion squads with Melta's
6 here Plus 2 retribution boxes. Already notified local store what I'll be wanting so they know to order sufficient amount.
Combined with what I already have(2 start sets) I'll be building:
2x5 with storm bolters
1x6 with storm bolters and combi plasma plus banner
7 with storm bolters, inferno pistol, banner
8 with banner, 2 melta gun, combi melta
same except flamer
10 celestine with 2 melta gun, combi melta and banner
10 dominion w/4 storm bolters, combi plasma, banner
10xretributor w/4xheavy bolter
10xretributor w/4xmulti melta and banner
All banners have cerub's. This is 79 models so I have 11 unaccounted for. Could fill up squads somewhere or maybe go for melta dominion squad which does appeal.
With these and 2 imagifiers+2nd canoness(ordered the resin one already) will have first 2k pure sister list. Albeit still 2 penitent engines that stick out in otherwise infantry but hide behind terrain from lascannons etc for counter charge.
sadly for me it's the middle of my pay cycle, I've got to choose between buying all I WANT and feeding myself, I'll likely be buying another box or two when I get paid. that and a buncha other stuff.
I want 3 exorcists, and 3 motifacers (wanna bet those come 1-2 on a box?) in addition to my basic troops, 2-3 imagifacers, another cannoness, celestine I see a lot of lists with her and I suspect most are doing it for the same reason as me "I want a SISTERS army so screw missionaries, but I don't want to have too many of the same bloody HQ although including them presumably LE box cannoness model there should be 3 distinct canoness models as you have the box one, the seperate canoness model and Verydian so maybe it won't be TOOO bad.
I'm not planning on having any on my list but I might snag a few immolators to paint and display. and proably wanna get a few rhinos assuming they're priced reasonably vs the marine rhino, for display reasons (that and being able to shift to mechanized if 9th edition hits and suddenly transports are awesome would be good)
tneva82 wrote: Well you probably can get one sold away ending up with cheaper 3 than if they came in boxes of 1
yeah, just annoying how GW puts out stuff like that that can be taken in groups of 3 and packages em in groups of 2. still not a big deal
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Spoletta wrote: There aren't that many differences between a PE and a morti. I still have not assembled my box PE, so I will probably try a conversion.
the main diff is basicly a coffin covering the body. I hoenstly doubt too many people are going to protest running PEs as Morti's given a Morti is basicly a PE revised to fit better with the chapter tactics system, make a bit more sense in terms of pilot protection etc
Given that I don't have a great deal of money to waste on them I'll be doing a lot of magnetising. Saying that GW have been pretty good with making certain options interchangeable outn the box. I wouldn't be surprised if h.bolters/flamers have pegs to make switching between them easy.
What are people’s thoughts on the most important question.... how are people painting their sisters? Classic OML color scheme? Whichever order you are set on playing with different color schemes for each detachment? A different order just for the color scheme even if you may or may not end up playing that order?
Personally I’m pretty torn. Would love to paint for my specific detachments but I’m still super unsure what my list is going to be and what orders I will run....
The art on the front of the sisters box codex is honestly so sick I might just do my whole army as Ebon Chalice. That white cloth with red lining is gorgeous
I have custom colour scheme. White armour, red tunics. Will swap around for choppy units like zephyr though so they can be fielded on bloody rose detachment. Justification being subgroup within order(thus reversed colours) who are more savage and thus fight differently.
I'll be sticking with my custom color scheme. it's taking me a few years (started beginning of 5th) to get my entire army fully painted, so I'm not going to start over just to match a particular order
They are table top standard, which is goot enough for me. Never found a good way to highlight or shade that liked that I could also do
Salted Diamond wrote: I'll be sticking with my custom color scheme. it's taking me a few years (started beginning of 5th) to get my entire army fully painted, so I'm not going to start over just to match a particular order
They are table top standard, which is goot enough for me
Salted Diamond wrote: I'll be sticking with my custom color scheme. it's taking me a few years (started beginning of 5th) to get my entire army fully painted, so I'm not going to start over just to match a particular order
They are table top standard, which is goot enough for me
A little wash would go a long way on that.
I never got a wash that didn't mess the white beyond where I could get it back or made to blue to dark. Same with highlighting. Always messed it up for me, but I never claim to be a good painter
Salted Diamond wrote: I'll be sticking with my custom color scheme. it's taking me a few years (started beginning of 5th) to get my entire army fully painted, so I'm not going to start over just to match a particular order
They are table top standard, which is goot enough for me
A little wash would go a long way on that.
I never got a wash that didn't mess the white beyond where I could get it back. Same with highlighting. Always messed it up for me, but I never claim to be a good painter
Well perhaps on the blue and weapons you could do it.
Salted Diamond wrote: I'll be sticking with my custom color scheme. it's taking me a few years (started beginning of 5th) to get my entire army fully painted, so I'm not going to start over just to match a particular order
They are table top standard, which is goot enough for me. Never found a good way to highlight or shade that liked that I could also
Hmm. Could some mix of grey shade help? Generally for white you should start from grey or brown and progress toward white via off white. Since that isn't doable maybe grey shade painted to recesses could do same it.
Highlighting pure white is hopeless as can't get lighter. That's why off white as main is good.
Salted Diamond wrote: I'll be sticking with my custom color scheme. it's taking me a few years (started beginning of 5th) to get my entire army fully painted, so I'm not going to start over just to match a particular order
They are table top standard, which is goot enough for me. Never found a good way to highlight or shade that liked that I could also do
Salted Diamond wrote: On the table, you don't notice. As I paint for fun, I'm pretty ok with simple table top standard paint jobs
They are still better then a "grey" army
Amen to that. "How does it look from 4' away?" is a good measure. The only person's opinion you need to worry about is your own. That said, I'm a real prick when evaluating my own work and I'm never satisfied in myself.
antibullyranger wrote: What are people’s thoughts on the most important question.... how are people painting their sisters?
I will continue to paint mine the same color scheme I do for all of my Imperial units. St. Louis Cardinals themed. Red, White, Baby Blue, and Light grey. Also, slap on as many baseball references as possible, since my army is the Cardinals of Saint Louise.
Yesterdays Warhammer Community had a picture of the Sanctum statue seperate from the building so looks like it is two parts, so hiding exorcists is a go.
Sim-Life wrote: Yesterdays Warhammer Community had a picture of the Sanctum statue seperate from the building so looks like it is two parts, so hiding exorcists is a go.
Depends on what exorcist you use. The new one's are way too tall to ever hide. The old metal ones can kind of hide. The oopfw ones can hide almost anywhere.
Sim-Life wrote: Yesterdays Warhammer Community had a picture of the Sanctum statue seperate from the building so looks like it is two parts, so hiding exorcists is a go.
Depends on what exorcist you use. The new one's are way too tall to ever hide. The old metal ones can kind of hide. The oopfw ones can hide almost anywhere.
tneva82 wrote: I have custom colour scheme. White armour, red tunics. Will swap around for choppy units like zephyr though so they can be fielded on bloody rose detachment. Justification being subgroup within order(thus reversed colours) who are more savage and thus fight differently.
sounds like your custom colour scheme is the same as mine.
regarding white armor, I've found apocathary white contrast paint can be pretty effective on sisters armor, you occasionally have to clean up some grey splotches but it over all looks good. even if you largely dislike it, it's AMAZING on their backpacks.
Sim-Life wrote: Yesterdays Warhammer Community had a picture of the Sanctum statue seperate from the building so looks like it is two parts, so hiding exorcists is a go.
Depends on what exorcist you use. The new one's are way too tall to ever hide. The old metal ones can kind of hide. The oopfw ones can hide almost anywhere.
You don't have to hide, just cover them 50%.
Yeah but if you can 100% hide turn you take no damage which is way better than +1 to save.
antibullyranger wrote: What are people’s thoughts on the most important question.... how are people painting their sisters? Classic OML color scheme? Whichever order you are set on playing with different color schemes for each detachment? A different order just for the color scheme even if you may or may not end up playing that order?
Personally I’m pretty torn. Would love to paint for my specific detachments but I’m still super unsure what my list is going to be and what orders I will run....
The art on the front of the sisters box codex is honestly so sick I might just do my whole army as Ebon Chalice. That white cloth with red lining is gorgeous
Spoiler:
Went custom. Not decided on a name or anything yet, they're still WIP. All of those colors are contrast over white. It's crazy how good these contrast paints are for getting an army going. All I need to do is some silver and gold accents and some facial details and I'll be good for the rank and file. White armor, cream trim, red robes with black lining on inside. Bit of a variant on some schemes I've seen. Running them as a Valorous Heart successor, that's about all Ive decided so far. I don't care for mixing traits in a list, so mine will be homogeneous. I build armies for long term and stick to uniform schemes, since mixed trait armies tend to not last long. Personally I don't recommend people do that unless you're super competitive and are perfectly fine with a very specific army being nerfed in 6 months. I can live with my repentia being slightly less efficient, I ain't taking top table at adepticon anytime soon and pure VH is plenty good to win on a local table.
For those of you painting white, do not understimate how good the GW white contrast paint is. It looks grey in the pot (apothecary grey I believe?) But it is perfect for standard white armor, robes, etc
Sim-Life wrote: Yesterdays Warhammer Community had a picture of the Sanctum statue seperate from the building so looks like it is two parts, so hiding exorcists is a go.
Depends on what exorcist you use. The new one's are way too tall to ever hide. The old metal ones can kind of hide. The oopfw ones can hide almost anywhere.
You don't have to hide, just cover them 50%.
You still need to be IN terrain so it depends on how your group plays terrain like that. Is vehicle IN terrain if it's touching terrain? If not then it can be 99% covered and nothing.
Just because 50% is covered(btw the sanctum isn't blocking LOS anyway. Big open windows)
regarding white armor, I've found apocathary white contrast paint can be pretty effective on sisters armor, you occasionally have to clean up some grey splotches but it over all looks good. even if you largely dislike it, it's AMAZING on their backpacks.
I have heard that a lot but haven't had much success with it myself on it's own. Though maybe would work better on pure white primer and maybe less heavy application. Did get nice effect with crypt ghouls though with light drybrush of ulthuan grey and white over it though.
What you need to understand is I'm you, but from the future
I kid, great minds think alike. That white with red robes just pops on the tabletop, part of why I like the Admech Metallica scheme so much. With contrast, it's practically cheating. Fleshtearers red and apothecary white were made for each other.
Though I'm doing it the slow way. Grey seer base, apotechary white over it to darken recesses, ulthuan grey layer, mix of ulthuan grey&white and finally white. Red is mephiston red+carroburg crimson+mephiston red layer, meph.red+evil sun red mix and then evil sun.
Black, silver etc usual. Then after varnish gold with vallejo liquid golds which gives shine like nothing(I can see shine of the lamp from the model meters away. Camera does not do it justice at all)
What you need to understand is I'm you, but from the future
I kid, great minds think alike. That white with red robes just pops on the tabletop, part of why I like the Admech Metallica scheme so much. With contrast, it's practically cheating. Fleshtearers red and apothecary white were made for each other.
I'm ALSO using white armor and red robes (it's a smart colour scheme I agree) since you've said you've not come up with a name yet, the name I'm using for mine is "Order of the Flaming Rose" feel free to borrow it.
Sim-Life wrote: Yesterdays Warhammer Community had a picture of the Sanctum statue seperate from the building so looks like it is two parts, so hiding exorcists is a go.
Depends on what exorcist you use. The new one's are way too tall to ever hide. The old metal ones can kind of hide. The oopfw ones can hide almost anywhere.
You don't have to hide, just cover them 50%.
You still need to be IN terrain so it depends on how your group plays terrain like that. Is vehicle IN terrain if it's touching terrain? If not then it can be 99% covered and nothing.
Just because 50% is covered(btw the sanctum isn't blocking LOS anyway. Big open windows)
I started a YMMC thread on this, and it was pretty unanimously agreed that a unit "entirely within" terrain, means that every model in the unit has to be partially in the terrain. This is because it's a UNIT. It applies to everything that isn't infantry (ie beasts, vehicles, swarms, monsters, etc). It also has to be 50% obscured, but not necessarily by the same terrain that it's in. This is why the difference between "wholly" and "entirely" was specified in the same FAQ. The problem is that people don't like to dissect rules like that, it's too much effort. They'd rather just argue that you don't get a cover save, then roll their eyes at you when you tell them that "wholly" and "entirely" don't mean the same thing :(
Painting mine in two groups, based on my personal background.
Main force (ground shrines and basilicas) is red from the torso down (below the boob plate), with a white chest plate, paldrons, and sleeves. (aka SPACE MIKOs).
The smaller force, based on space station shrines, is golden yellow, not sure what 2nd color I want (still experimenting). Lots of seraphim/zephyrim for that detachment.
antibullyranger wrote: What are people’s thoughts on the most important question.... how are people painting their sisters? Classic OML color scheme? Whichever order you are set on playing with different color schemes for each detachment? A different order just for the color scheme even if you may or may not end up playing that order?
I wanted an original scheme for a minor order, so I started (20+ years ago) with bone-colored armor, green robes, and gold trim. When it was clear they'd offer rules for multiple Orders (and because I was sick of painting white), I flipped the scheme to white robes over green armor. I added white robes with green lining over gold armor for the option to play a third Order or to indicate Celestian status. Here's a pre-plastic army photo, mostly green-on-white with the white-on-green and the gold in the front center.
Spoiler:
As I paint up the new plastics, I imagine I'll find uses for all three schemes as I round out units, expand wargear options, and fiddle with Orders. At this point I'm glad to have some freedom in choosing Orders and sorely tempted to put pen to paper and write some background for my Orders Minoris.
regarding white armor, it'll still be a challange for your larger stuff but I really wanna stress again that contrast paint makes white sooo much easier,
Sim-Life wrote: Yesterdays Warhammer Community had a picture of the Sanctum statue seperate from the building so looks like it is two parts, so hiding exorcists is a go.
Depends on what exorcist you use. The new one's are way too tall to ever hide. The old metal ones can kind of hide. The oopfw ones can hide almost anywhere.
You don't have to hide, just cover them 50%.
You still need to be IN terrain so it depends on how your group plays terrain like that. Is vehicle IN terrain if it's touching terrain? If not then it can be 99% covered and nothing.
Just because 50% is covered(btw the sanctum isn't blocking LOS anyway. Big open windows)
I started a YMMC thread on this, and it was pretty unanimously agreed that a unit "entirely within" terrain, means that every model in the unit has to be partially in the terrain. This is because it's a UNIT. It applies to everything that isn't infantry (ie beasts, vehicles, swarms, monsters, etc). It also has to be 50% obscured, but not necessarily by the same terrain that it's in. This is why the difference between "wholly" and "entirely" was specified in the same FAQ. The problem is that people don't like to dissect rules like that, it's too much effort. They'd rather just argue that you don't get a cover save, then roll their eyes at you when you tell them that "wholly" and "entirely" don't mean the same thing :(
Problem being sanctum doesn't seem to have a base. Ergo when you are in it. Are you in terrain when you are touching it? Where-ever you are you are standing on board. There's no predefined area that shows where you need to be to be in it.
tneva82 wrote: Problem being sanctum doesn't seem to have a base. Ergo when you are in it. Are you in terrain when you are touching it? Where-ever you are you are standing on board. There's no predefined area that shows where you need to be to be in it.
So we've come full circle, back to the old multilevel gothic ruins that so many of us mounted on triangular card bases for exactly this reason. My group has long houseruled that everything has a base, even if it's a piece of felt, and if you're on it, you're in it.
Salted Diamond wrote: I'll be sticking with my custom color scheme. it's taking me a few years (started beginning of 5th) to get my entire army fully painted, so I'm not going to start over just to match a particular order
They are table top standard, which is goot enough for me. Never found a good way to highlight or shade that liked that I could also do
Jesus, put some water in those paints
Be nice!
Automatically Appended Next Post: I did oil paint on my armor and guns.
Okay after less than stellar outing with sisters first game(well with the start set and celestine to use didn't have much to even use sisters and their good stuff. MD being fairly irrelevant, I had 5 sisters with literally nothing but bolters, seraphim had no special pistols...) I had IG battalion figuring CP and extra bodies would be useful...However it made me to think sisters are not that much more expensive(230 for bare minimum sister battalion except for 6 storm bolters for the squads. 218 if you want to go as cheap as possible but I feel those storm bolters are worth it at least). You do have 17 models only rather than 32 so you have somewhat less area you cover though with 32mm bases it's not literally half.
In return you have more durability(especially as valorous heart) with 3+ save and more firepower. Also durability is helped by less issues by morale. I often lose 6-8 ig trooper and then opponent just lets morale take care of rest.
So am I totally off thinking that even without factoring loss of sacred rite the CP battalion might not be actually that useful? Albeit IG has other useful things but just for bodies and CP it feels not that useful for sisters.
antibullyranger wrote: What are people’s thoughts on the most important question.... how are people painting their sisters? Classic OML color scheme? Whichever order you are set on playing with different color schemes for each detachment? A different order just for the color scheme even if you may or may not end up playing that order?
Going for the classic OML because it is the scheme that got me interested in the faction to begin with. However, if and when I have a large force of sisters, I might start painting different sub-factions just for fun.
Mechanicus strandard grey base, lights with a white airbrush over the model and then contrast. Really quick and quite effective.
Contrast alone is nice, but it cannot create highlighted areas, will create its pattern based only on the edges of the model, so you get the boots of the model with the same level of light as the shoulders. This way instead i put the contrast over areas which are already grey or white based on the exposition to light, and this creates a nice effect with a minimal effort.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Salted Diamond wrote: I'll be sticking with my custom color scheme. it's taking me a few years (started beginning of 5th) to get my entire army fully painted, so I'm not going to start over just to match a particular order
They are table top standard, which is goot enough for me. Never found a good way to highlight or shade that liked that I could also do
tneva82 wrote: Okay after less than stellar outing with sisters first game(well with the start set and celestine to use didn't have much to even use sisters and their good stuff. MD being fairly irrelevant, I had 5 sisters with literally nothing but bolters, seraphim had no special pistols...) I had IG battalion figuring CP and extra bodies would be useful...However it made me to think sisters are not that much more expensive(230 for bare minimum sister battalion except for 6 storm bolters for the squads. 218 if you want to go as cheap as possible but I feel those storm bolters are worth it at least). You do have 17 models only rather than 32 so you have somewhat less area you cover though with 32mm bases it's not literally half.
In return you have more durability(especially as valorous heart) with 3+ save and more firepower. Also durability is helped by less issues by morale. I often lose 6-8 ig trooper and then opponent just lets morale take care of rest.
So am I totally off thinking that even without factoring loss of sacred rite the CP battalion might not be actually that useful? Albeit IG has other useful things but just for bodies and CP it feels not that useful for sisters.
Sisters batallion also offers a key advantage in that it can shut down a pysker power on a 4+ for 1cp.
Ironically a small sisters batallion would be a great addition to an admech force. Cheap CP, easy psyer denial, and you can get a lot of utility based on how you kit them out. For example, VH for some durable objective holders or one of the more aggressive ones to help with countercharge.
Ironically a small sisters batallion would be a great addition to an admech force. Cheap CP, easy psyer denial, and you can get a lot of utility based on how you kit them out. For example, VH for some durable objective holders or one of the more aggressive ones to help with countercharge.
Well Since ig would be allies there's already sister detachment. More of if have battalion or brigade(more of battalion) and are looking for allies anyway for cp would ig or another sister det be better.
antibullyranger wrote: What are people’s thoughts on the most important question.... how are people painting their sisters?
I'm going with a somewhat off-the-wall paint scheme:
Sorry the photo is so blurry. These particular models still need some highlights and their bases done, but other than that they are battle ready. God bless contrast paints!
tneva82 wrote: Problem being sanctum doesn't seem to have a base. Ergo when you are in it. Are you in terrain when you are touching it? Where-ever you are you are standing on board. There's no predefined area that shows where you need to be to be in it.
So we've come full circle, back to the old multilevel gothic ruins that so many of us mounted on triangular card bases for exactly this reason. My group has long houseruled that everything has a base, even if it's a piece of felt, and if you're on it, you're in it.
The rule of thumb for ruins without a base is to draw an imaginary line from corner to corner, usually making a triangle shape, and everything inside that line is in the ruins.
antibullyranger wrote: What are people’s thoughts on the most important question.... how are people painting their sisters? Classic OML color scheme? Whichever order you are set on playing with different color schemes for each detachment? A different order just for the color scheme even if you may or may not end up playing that order?
Was worried about the gold being too garish but gave it a go last night and, once the washes were on, I don't think it's too much.
antibullyranger wrote: What are people’s thoughts on the most important question.... how are people painting their sisters? Classic OML color scheme? Whichever order you are set on playing with different color schemes for each detachment? A different order just for the color scheme even if you may or may not end up playing that order?
Was worried about the gold being too garish but gave it a go last night and, once the washes were on, I don't think it's too much.
ohh I like that, Looks kinda like the sisters of silence.
tneva82 wrote: Okay after less than stellar outing with sisters first game(well with the start set and celestine to use didn't have much to even use sisters and their good stuff. MD being fairly irrelevant, I had 5 sisters with literally nothing but bolters, seraphim had no special pistols...) I had IG battalion figuring CP and extra bodies would be useful...However it made me to think sisters are not that much more expensive(230 for bare minimum sister battalion except for 6 storm bolters for the squads. 218 if you want to go as cheap as possible but I feel those storm bolters are worth it at least). You do have 17 models only rather than 32 so you have somewhat less area you cover though with 32mm bases it's not literally half.
In return you have more durability(especially as valorous heart) with 3+ save and more firepower. Also durability is helped by less issues by morale. I often lose 6-8 ig trooper and then opponent just lets morale take care of rest.
So am I totally off thinking that even without factoring loss of sacred rite the CP battalion might not be actually that useful? Albeit IG has other useful things but just for bodies and CP it feels not that useful for sisters.
Sisters batallion also offers a key advantage in that it can shut down a pysker power on a 4+ for 1cp.
Ironically a small sisters batallion would be a great addition to an admech force. Cheap CP, easy psyer denial, and you can get a lot of utility based on how you kit them out. For example, VH for some durable objective holders or one of the more aggressive ones to help with countercharge.
I'm wondering if sisters and custodes would be another good combo...
I got the idea into my head when Bretonnians were squatted to glue some Bret knights heads onto custodes jetbike dudes, painted them in the same black and purple theme as my pegasus knights (Escadron Noir) and fluff them as grail knights who somehow found themselves in 40k. Now they're known as Black Squadron to the armies they help in their never ending quest to bring glory to the Lady-Emperor. Occasionally I'll bring them along as shield captains and they'll go after the biggest thing on the table because hunting the big scary things bring the most glory.
They make great distraction carnifexes. The hurricane bolters annihilate T3 infantry (even if its unchivailrous) and they can threaten T7/8 stuff on the charge due to rerolling wounds. I never regret bringing them. It also lets me talk in an outrageous french accent.
Oberron wrote: I'd go with the most recent printing with the field manual. As much as I'd like to run 6 mortifiers.
except is the field manual the most recent printing, given the codex is offically relasing next weekend?
It certainly is a mess, eh? As of today, I'd say yes. The codex released last year, albeit limited. You might have an argument to allow it in two weeks, but not today. If we were in a match tomorrow and I asked to see proof, you'd be unable to show me anything more recent than the field manual.
The data sheet also only refers to power level, and I think that distinction is important. If I were anybody here, I would not try and pull a fast one by saying a power level related reference has bearing on matched play games with points. Refer to the points list instead, where we have a more recent publication available, as we do every single game anyway.
But ultimately it is a grey area, and in WAAC circles be prepared to argue your position to the TO if you really want to bring units of six. You're risking a WYSIWYG counter argument muddying the whole thing considering the kit isn't out yet. If your list is built around trying to maximize this confusion, you could be left hanging should the TO rule against you. And if you've ever played in a tournament before, then you well know that you shouldn't be arguing after a decision is made, and losing those illegal squads would mean you're starting ever match handicapped.
There's ultimately nothing concrete stopping anybody from running 6, but there's a ton of good arguments supporting a case not to.
Firstly, the hotly pressed question: I'm painting my girls Gold, washed with Seraphim Sepia, cream inner and purple outer vestments with details in white. Guns will be Leasbelcher with black cases. Base will be Martian red, to brighten, like how the Forge world Custodes bases are.
So. I have the box set, but I'm struggling to think of what to add to it. I don't want to limit myself to a particular order (hence the custom scheme) but I want to at least have a chance of winning. My playgroup is pretty chill, but I do go to tournaments so having a strong base to begin with is preferable.
Well lot depends on what time schedule you need. ATM looks like if you are in a hurry infantry based force is best way to go as there's no word on when vehicles starts to roll on...
But can't really go wrong with basic sisters and retributions. I figure either brigade or 2 battalions will be essentially mandatory due to CP so you need at least 30 basic sisters=3 boxes minus how many you can use from your start set so if all 2 boxes. Then unless you have 3 exorcist for AT(and maybe even if you do) you want retribution squad with multi meltas to punch some armour. 2 per box=2 boxes. However if you have just 5 retribution with multi meltax4 you need some spare bodies...So unless you use the other box to make bolter retributions rather than more heavy weapon girls you need another box for extra bodies.
So assuming you want to use the basic squad from box set models in full 3 basic boxes and 2 retribution boxes will be good start.
Once they come out canoness or two will be useful and imagifier or two especially if you can see yourself using valorous heart for that sweet -2 AP=0 bubbles.
2+/6++ ignoring -2 will require quite a bit of firepower for enemy to gun through(particularly because they need to use non-LOS ignoring weapons. With 42" threat range and no penalty for moving there's no excuse for them to be sitting in visible). Especially when there's 6 bodies before they get to the multi meltas. 4 gives nice CP efficiency. The extra range CP is pretty inefficient for 2 CP with just 1 MM. 2 MM don't even really scare much. 2.72 wounds vs leman russ isn't something to write home about. Even with cherub's that's not even degraded leman russ.
Spoletta wrote: I'm going to build my retri with only 2 MM, so with 2 cherubs they can still alpha strike at 4 shots, but they cost much less.
I don't hold any hope in a squad of 4 MM to make it past turn 1, and i would like to make target priority less obvious.
I've played a couple of games with VH Rets (10 Rets, 4 MM, 1 Simulacrum, 2 cherubs), and try to keep them in cover over the first few turns with the -2 AP ignoring bubble... I also keep them on a 4++ over the first couple turns as well if I fear things like plasma or las (real easy to identify the threats in your opponent's army). 2+, 4++, 6+++ ignoring -2 AP, and a Hospitaller to help pick up the bodies makes it a REALLY solid block that takes A LOT of punishment to significantly damage. There's a lot of support in there, too, so that drives up the cost as well: Celestine, Imagifier with Indomitable Belief + Tale of the Stoic, Hospitaller, more reliance on Storm of Retribution to get the +12" range to keep stationary longer. It just ends up being one of those things you build the army around, because they will do a ton of work over the course of the game.
On another note, I also want to field a second squad of Rets with 2 MM, 1 Simulacrum, and 2 Cherubs (comes in just over 100 points) just to have a smaller squad that is less reliant on being protected, but can still spike damage nicely with 4 MM shots early on. Best part is, it can be protected in the same way as the larger one is, making it a nice early game support squad that should be hard to break as well.
Currently, my order is in white armor with blue vestments. Gold trim. And grey knight steel on the weapons... I thought it would be poetic to return the favor.
Dr. Mills wrote: Firstly, the hotly pressed question: I'm painting my girls Gold, washed with Seraphim Sepia, cream inner and purple outer vestments with details in white. Guns will be Leasbelcher with black cases. Base will be Martian red, to brighten, like how the Forge world Custodes bases are.
So. I have the box set, but I'm struggling to think of what to add to it. I don't want to limit myself to a particular order (hence the custom scheme) but I want to at least have a chance of winning. My playgroup is pretty chill, but I do go to tournaments so having a strong base to begin with is preferable.
Well it depends a lot on the Conviction you want. CERTAIN units are much better within certain convictions. OBVIOUS shining stars are the Sisters Repentia (Bloody Rose) and as always the Exorcists (which I would argue for Valorous Heart or Ebon Chalice).
If you are going to go Flight of the Valkyries, then it will be different.
In my humble opinion, the beginner set is strong. With it, you should be well on your way to a Bloody Rose themed force if you get two boxed sets and sell the codex. It sort of is tailor made for that. All kinda of in your face there.
In the LONG run though, I see Valorous Heart being the odds on favorite overall. The meta is so deadly to t3 models that you really must accord that fact some respect and give yourself a fighting chance against the artillery and first turn charge capabilities of the meta leading armies. Raven Guard and Blood Angels are ultra in-your-face, and Thunderfire Cannons are the soup d'jour, sometimes even backed with Whirlwinds, forcing you out of your hidey holes and into the great wide open. What can one convent do against such Dakka, especially given the Devastator Doctrine.
Well, the Valorous Heart can handle it better.
The alternative strategy is to accept this and to have speed for days to get to those artillery and shut them up while maintaining na entirely terrifying counter-charge ability. Bloody Rose will let you do this. In this mode of thought your deployment zone is nothing more than a red herring to draw such enemies into their dooms. Let them have their fun for one round, munching on a 15 Sister Squad. Then you wreck them with Arco Flagellents and Repentia for their troubles while their artillery/Snipers are silenced the rest of the game by melta pistols and more melta pistols and so on.
I'm about to start a SOB army, was thinking in this brigade:
- celestine, canoness, katharine,
- 5x6 sisters (2 SB each)
- Dialogus, Imagifier, Hospitaller
- 5x3 Dominion with meltas (not sure about this, super expensive).
- Exorcist and mortifiers
- Any rhino
What do you think about this? I know katherine is not the best HQ, but I really like his model and I'm gonna play him cuz of that, but not sure about those dominions, melta do not seems as good as I though, is too expensive
Kebabcito wrote: I'm about to start a SOB army, was thinking in this brigade:
- celestine, canoness, katharine,
- 5x6 sisters (2 SB each)
- Dialogus, Imagifier, Hospitaller
- 5x3 Dominion with meltas (not sure about this, super expensive).
- Exorcist and mortifiers
- Any rhino
What do you think about this? I know katherine is not the best HQ, but I really like his model and I'm gonna play him cuz of that, but not sure about those dominions, melta do not seems as good as I though, is too expensive
Put 4 of those Storm Bolters into a single Dominion Squad. Put their meltas in Sisters Squads.
Add Hunter Killer missile if you haven't. Always worth it. Always. Range is an issue and you'll need all the range you can get early on.
Mortifiers look terrifying. I am not sure yet as to their viability, but if you DO take them, take 6. It will allow your entire army to advance turn one while the enemy spends its energy trying to kill them and rightly so.
Have fun.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote: argent shroud is also a pretty good one at getting your infantry in close to the enemy fast.
Kebabcito wrote: I'm about to start a SOB army, was thinking in this brigade:
- celestine, canoness, katharine,
- 5x6 sisters (2 SB each)
- Dialogus, Imagifier, Hospitaller
- 5x3 Dominion with meltas (not sure about this, super expensive).
- Exorcist and mortifiers
- Any rhino
What do you think about this? I know katherine is not the best HQ, but I really like his model and I'm gonna play him cuz of that, but not sure about those dominions, melta do not seems as good as I though, is too expensive
Put 4 of those Storm Bolters into a single Dominion Squad. Put their meltas in Sisters Squads.
Add Hunter Killer missile if you haven't. Always worth it. Always. Range is an issue and you'll need all the range you can get early on.
Mortifiers look terrifying. I am not sure yet as to their viability, but if you DO take them, take 6. It will allow your entire army to advance turn one while the enemy spends its energy trying to kill them and rightly so.
Have fun.
I'm curious as to your reasonong for the 4 stormbolters in dominions and the melta's in the sister squads, given dominions ability to move up the board early wou;dn't they be ideal for melta?
Kebabcito wrote: I'm about to start a SOB army, was thinking in this brigade:
- celestine, canoness, katharine,
- 5x6 sisters (2 SB each)
- Dialogus, Imagifier, Hospitaller
- 5x3 Dominion with meltas (not sure about this, super expensive).
- Exorcist and mortifiers
- Any rhino
What do you think about this? I know katherine is not the best HQ, but I really like his model and I'm gonna play him cuz of that, but not sure about those dominions, melta do not seems as good as I though, is too expensive
Put 4 of those Storm Bolters into a single Dominion Squad. Put their meltas in Sisters Squads.
Add Hunter Killer missile if you haven't. Always worth it. Always. Range is an issue and you'll need all the range you can get early on.
Mortifiers look terrifying. I am not sure yet as to their viability, but if you DO take them, take 6. It will allow your entire army to advance turn one while the enemy spends its energy trying to kill them and rightly so.
Have fun.
I'm curious as to your reasonong for the 4 stormbolters in dominions and the melta's in the sister squads, given dominions ability to move up the board early wou;dn't they be ideal for melta?
Yes but their Storm Bolter Stratategem makes having one of them an EXTREMELY economical damage dealer.
Kebabcito wrote: I'm about to start a SOB army, was thinking in this brigade:
- celestine, canoness, katharine,
- 5x6 sisters (2 SB each)
- Dialogus, Imagifier, Hospitaller
- 5x3 Dominion with meltas (not sure about this, super expensive).
- Exorcist and mortifiers
- Any rhino
What do you think about this? I know katherine is not the best HQ, but I really like his model and I'm gonna play him cuz of that, but not sure about those dominions, melta do not seems as good as I though, is too expensive
Put 4 of those Storm Bolters into a single Dominion Squad. Put their meltas in Sisters Squads.
Add Hunter Killer missile if you haven't. Always worth it. Always. Range is an issue and you'll need all the range you can get early on.
Mortifiers look terrifying. I am not sure yet as to their viability, but if you DO take them, take 6. It will allow your entire army to advance turn one while the enemy spends its energy trying to kill them and rightly so.
Have fun.
I'm curious as to your reasonong for the 4 stormbolters in dominions and the melta's in the sister squads, given dominions ability to move up the board early wou;dn't they be ideal for melta?
Yes but their Storm Bolter Stratategem makes having one of them an EXTREMELY economical damage dealer.
I understand your logic, maximizing the SB strategem with dominions, i'll check it, thanks for tips.
This army seems very strong to me, with the 3+/4++/6+++, ignoring -2, you can also go full psychic denying, I think it'll be strong.
I understand your logic, maximizing the SB strategem with dominions, i'll check it, thanks for tips.
This army seems very strong to me, with the 3+/4++/6+++, ignoring -2, you can also go full psychic denying, I think it'll be strong.
In the right hands, yes. I see some cool ideas being floated here and there in this thread. I am having success thus far. i haven't lost, which is all you can ask for while testing new ideas.
Got another game this afternoon, and hope to keep the streak intact. My opponent has a fairly good record, but he fears my Sisters. He hasn't ever beaten them (specifically) before and we've played since forever. He's gotten me before but not with Sisters. He's hoping to start the count over again with the new Dex! I on the other hand, disagree.
I will let you know how it goes. I am utilizing the Storm Bolter unit in my force though.
So I'm poking at lists for a league. Not really settled on anything cause I don't have a lot of the new models for testing like mortifiers and Katherine and such but I came up with this and I'm worried its a bit harsh for a semi-friendly league. Opinions? Basically I've been finding Sisters heavy on CP so I wanted to maximise the amount I had and I find Ebon Chalice fun for the mind-games.
Edit: Noticed I have two squads of 7 sisters. Cut those down to 5 sisters and remove the hunter killer from the exorcist and replace them with a Diologus.
So, I don't hear many people talking about taking Sisters as part of an Imperial soup army very much. Yes, running pure gives you access to Sacred Rites, but IMHO most of those are situationally useful at best, unless I'm really missing something. I had come up with an idea of taking a Knight, a Battalion of Astra Militarum, and then a Battalion of Sisters with like 3 Exorcists (or maybe 3 Repressors full of MM Retributors instead). The AM detachment should probably have a Punisher TC for horde clearing duty, as the Knight and Exorcists should be able to handle the big stuff pretty well (lots of T8 should help with screwing your opponent's target priority).
What are other people's thoughts on Sisters as a soup ingredient?
ZergSmasher wrote: So, I don't hear many people talking about taking Sisters as part of an Imperial soup army very much. Yes, running pure gives you access to Sacred Rites, but IMHO most of those are situationally useful at best, unless I'm really missing something. I had come up with an idea of taking a Knight, a Battalion of Astra Militarum, and then a Battalion of Sisters with like 3 Exorcists (or maybe 3 Repressors full of MM Retributors instead). The AM detachment should probably have a Punisher TC for horde clearing duty, as the Knight and Exorcists should be able to handle the big stuff pretty well (lots of T8 should help with screwing your opponent's target priority).
What are other people's thoughts on Sisters as a soup ingredient?
I used to always run Sisters as soup with IG or AdMech but the improved exorcist and rets basically fixed up Sisters main weakness IMO.
ZergSmasher wrote: So, I don't hear many people talking about taking Sisters as part of an Imperial soup army very much. Yes, running pure gives you access to Sacred Rites, but IMHO most of those are situationally useful at best, unless I'm really missing something. I had come up with an idea of taking a Knight, a Battalion of Astra Militarum, and then a Battalion of Sisters with like 3 Exorcists (or maybe 3 Repressors full of MM Retributors instead). The AM detachment should probably have a Punisher TC for horde clearing duty, as the Knight and Exorcists should be able to handle the big stuff pretty well (lots of T8 should help with screwing your opponent's target priority).
What are other people's thoughts on Sisters as a soup ingredient?
Sisters are a solid soup ingredient if you know what exactly you want out of it. Exorcists biggest problem atm is probably that there's no debate about what your opponent's big guns target and that's generally worth. Sacred Rites are nice to have, but you take them because you're are Sisters player and you want to play Sisters. They aren't meta defining.
ZergSmasher wrote: So, I don't hear many people talking about taking Sisters as part of an Imperial soup army very much. Yes, running pure gives you access to Sacred Rites, but IMHO most of those are situationally useful at best, unless I'm really missing something. I had come up with an idea of taking a Knight, a Battalion of Astra Militarum, and then a Battalion of Sisters with like 3 Exorcists (or maybe 3 Repressors full of MM Retributors instead). The AM detachment should probably have a Punisher TC for horde clearing duty, as the Knight and Exorcists should be able to handle the big stuff pretty well (lots of T8 should help with screwing your opponent's target priority).
What are other people's thoughts on Sisters as a soup ingredient?
I used to always run Sisters as soup with IG or AdMech but the improved exorcist and rets basically fixed up Sisters main weakness IMO.
yeah I think part of the reason you're not seeing much sisters soup is... they don't partiuclarly need it, they're cheap eneugh that command points won't be a problem, but at the same time they don't really need an injection of elites eaither, as they can do most of the things general marine units can,
ZergSmasher wrote: So, I don't hear many people talking about taking Sisters as part of an Imperial soup army very much. Yes, running pure gives you access to Sacred Rites, but IMHO most of those are situationally useful at best, unless I'm really missing somethingt?
Sacred Rites are pretty key in my experience. Especially in stopping Psykers and getting miracle dice for it. Then you can roll for it if no psykers or you can specify it for Bloody rose...and so on. Its pretty great.
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Oberron wrote: I'd go with the most recent printing with the field manual. As much as I'd like to run 6 mortifiers.
Clearly the datasheet always takes precedence. Points are just points.
Oberron wrote: I'd go with the most recent printing with the field manual. As much as I'd like to run 6 mortifiers.
Clearly the datasheet always takes precedence. Points are just points.
Is it really all that clear? Matched play points is the only source of truth for matched play list building, not the section in the data sheet that details power levels.
I would not think it's worth building your game plan on this, lest you risk having it disallowed either by GW or a TO. Friendly matches at your local store? Yeah, feel free to run 6 if you want, there's a built in mechanism in those games for people to resolve the argument after all. But I can almost guarantee you'll run into TOs who will side with the Field Manual as largely the premier guide for both points costs and unit sizes. I don't think you'll have much issue with it, but I would still ask before you commit too heavily, as with anything that isn't consistently represented it may come back to bite you.
I'm really liking the new rules and points. I'm considering a very basic mechanized sisters list, and I'm surprised with howm uch I can fit in to 2000 points.
Melissia wrote: I'm really liking the new rules and points. I'm considering a very basic mechanized sisters list, and I'm surprised with howm uch I can fit in to 2000 points.
I'm interested to hear about your list. Will you post it somewhere?
Finally got my first game in and I have to say, Miracle Dice are nice. It's like anytime you are thinking, "I might want to use a Command Reroll if I fail this roll" you can instead insert the lowest necessary Miracle Dice and Win
Now it is just a matter of deciding how much is enough and is it worth buying upgrades to use more than 1 a phase.
And Faith and Fury is awesome with Meltaguns. This 3 or 4 hits and wounds you. Make your save at -4. You failed? Simulacrum Imperialis for another Miracle Dice: take 6 damage.
I like Faith and Fury as a stratagem, but I really feel like it is over costed and should be 1CP. 2 just feels like a huge investment with all of the other really good stratagems at your disposal.
Melissia wrote: I'm really liking the new rules and points. I'm considering a very basic mechanized sisters list, and I'm surprised with how much I can fit in to 2000 points.
I'm interested to hear about your list. Will you post it somewhere?
Already did. It's in the army list forum, at the moment of this post, like third from the top.
Is everyone running sisters squads 5 strong with 2 storm bolters?? Really tempted to give a couple squads a heavy bolter and let them camp on backfield objectives.
Was thinking of 6 minimum squads of sisters, 2 with HB / SB 3 with 2 X SB and a single squad in an immolator with heavy flamer, flamer and combi flamer and use them as suicide/ counter attacking unit.
Oberron wrote: I'd go with the most recent printing with the field manual. As much as I'd like to run 6 mortifiers.
Clearly the datasheet always takes precedence. Points are just points.
Is it really all that clear?.
Yes.
Yes...clear as mud. Just had a TO mention they're leaning toward following the field manual outside of clearly borked entries like Deathwatch, so that, while anecdotal, suggests that the convenience of it being all in one place and easily updated takes precedence. I'm not surprised - data sheets are just for power level anyway. It's also never ever mentioned anywhere that data sheets take precedence, as far as I can see.
It does sound like 1-6 is the intent, so I hope they update that soon.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Is everyone running sisters squads 5 strong with 2 storm bolters?? Really tempted to give a couple squads a heavy bolter and let them camp on backfield objectives.
Was thinking of 6 minimum squads of sisters, 2 with HB / SB 3 with 2 X SB and a single squad in an immolator with heavy flamer, flamer and combi flamer and use them as suicide/ counter attacking unit.
I used to run units of 10 but morale really screws you.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Is everyone running sisters squads 5 strong with 2 storm bolters?? Really tempted to give a couple squads a heavy bolter and let them camp on backfield objectives.
Was thinking of 6 minimum squads of sisters, 2 with HB / SB 3 with 2 X SB and a single squad in an immolator with heavy flamer, flamer and combi flamer and use them as suicide/ counter attacking unit.
I feel sisters are cheap enough that I'd rather do something else with those 12 points. But I suppose it's an idea.
Tabletop Tactics have a new battle report up. Unfortunately they're still working with their beta-dex meta list since they don't buy models that aren't in the tournament meta so its a weird Immolator spam list.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Is everyone running sisters squads 5 strong with 2 storm bolters?? Really tempted to give a couple squads a heavy bolter and let them camp on backfield objectives. Was thinking of 6 minimum squads of sisters, 2 with HB / SB 3 with 2 X SB and a single squad in an immolator with heavy flamer, flamer and combi flamer and use them as suicide/ counter attacking unit.
I run the 2x SB option. If my backfield objective campers are shooting, they're not racking up Engineers points - plus a minimal loadout also means I don't lose anything for keeping them out of line of sight.
Am I missing something or does the Ebon Chalice conviction seem kinda bad?
Having to throw away a miracle dice just to make another miracle dice a 6 seems like you would burn through your dice really fast.
Depends on what you are using the Miracle Dice for and what the two dice you are using are. Tossing two 1's to get a 6 on a d6 Damage roll sounds really good to me.
And don't forget Ebon Chalice also has a 5+++ versus Mortal Wounds, a not bad Warlord Trait (first Miracle Dice is a 6 and you get 1d3 Command Points), and a not bad Stratagem (2 CP for max dice roll for flame weapons for a squad).
Beneficence is amazing against the right targets. Against chaff and elite units and hq it is amazing. Less so against anything monstrous or with decent invo and wounds to soak it up. It's even more amazing on a Cannoness with the Righteous Rage WL trait for those rerolls. Had a Cannoness the other day take out a units of zombies and take Typhus down to 1 wound from full before going down (ran out of CP to bring her back, darn, that would have been beautiful.)
dan2026 wrote: Am I missing something or does the Ebon Chalice conviction seem kinda bad?
Having to throw away a miracle dice just to make another miracle dice a 6 seems like you would burn through your dice really fast.
Nah. Its pretty good. I'm generally finding I have an excess of miracle dice, usially 4-5 by turn 3 and at least one or two of them are always going to be low so it gives them a use.
Giantwalkingchair wrote: Beneficence is amazing against the right targets. Against chaff and elite units and hq it is amazing. Less so against anything monstrous or with decent invo and wounds to soak it up. It's even more amazing on a Cannoness with the Righteous Rage WL trait for those rerolls. Had a Cannoness the other day take out a units of zombies and take Typhus down to 1 wound from full before going down (ran out of CP to bring her back, darn, that would have been beautiful.)
Nice! I'm planning on my Warlord canoness being exactly that. Bonus points because I'm playing Bloody Rose, so she gets an additional -1 ap on all attacks, and an additional attack on the charge.
Other canoness is gonna be a rising heroine (or whatever the second warlord trait rule is called) with the miracle die generating warlord trait.
Yeah she's an absolute blender. I didn't even have a priest near her for the extra attack either. But I'd definately keep her in imagifier range for the extra strength, just pushes her up from alright to murderhobo.
Yeah, Canonesses can really be good if you invest in them a little. I like the idea of a Bloody Rose one with Benificence and the BR trait using the BR strat for +1 to wound. I call her the Murderess, and she should kill anything she gets a hold of up to a Daemon Prince. 9 attacks or something on the charge. Valorous Heart can do more of a tanky Canoness with the VH trait and either the 3++ or only wound on 4+ relic. Probably give her a Blessed Blade so she actually can hit stuff back. VH trait isn't that amazing though so maybe take something else instead.
...need impressive looking chainsword. Whenever canoness is released
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZergSmasher wrote: Yeah, Canonesses can really be good if you invest in them a little. I like the idea of a Bloody Rose one with Benificence and the BR trait using the BR strat for +1 to wound. I call her the Murderess, and she should kill anything she gets a hold of up to a Daemon Prince. 9 attacks or something on the charge. Valorous Heart can do more of a tanky Canoness with the VH trait and either the 3++ or only wound on 4+ relic. Probably give her a Blessed Blade so she actually can hit stuff back. VH trait isn't that amazing though so maybe take something else instead.
I liked inv booster. Albeit with celestine. 3/4 saves ignoring -2 made tough core
The only other off beat Cannoness I can think of is one with the Wrath of the Emperor pistol and blessed weapon.
4 S5 ap-3 D2 ranged attacks (bloody rose) and 7 S6 ap-5 Dd3 combat attacks (BR WL trait, priest and imagifier support; 1 less attack if want to keep the reroll from generic sisters WL trait)
Will make short work of basic units and lay hurt on elite.
Considering Storm Bolters seem to be quite in vogue for Sisters these days how are people planning to get so many of them considering I think there are only 2 in a ten nun box?
dan2026 wrote: Considering Storm Bolters seem to be quite in vogue for Sisters these days how are people planning to get so many of them considering I think there are only 2 in a ten nun box?
dan2026 wrote: Considering Storm Bolters seem to be quite in vogue for Sisters these days how are people planning to get so many of them considering I think there are only 2 in a ten nun box?
dan2026 wrote: Considering Storm Bolters seem to be quite in vogue for Sisters these days how are people planning to get so many of them considering I think there are only 2 in a ten nun box?
Lots of converting?
There's 4 in the box
Really?
That's surprisingly generous for GW.
it really is, I think whomever is doing the model line for sisters clearly wants to "do right by them" to pay them back for the long delay
dan2026 wrote: Considering Storm Bolters seem to be quite in vogue for Sisters these days how are people planning to get so many of them considering I think there are only 2 in a ten nun box?
Lots of converting?
There's 4 in the box
Really?
That's surprisingly generous for GW.
it really is, I think whomever is doing the model line for sisters clearly wants to "do right by them" to pay them back for the long delay
I preordered 2 boxes from my FLGS. My intent is to make 2 Battle Sisters squads with 2 SB in each and 2 Dominion Squads with 4 Meltaguns + Combimelta. If there's 4 of each gun then that's awesome and I'll basically have the core of my army ready to go. I'll need to get 3 Exorcists at some point as well, but money's kind of tight for the near future (only reason I'm getting the two BSS boxes is with the remainder of my store credit from selling my CSM army).
Hey, I don't have my book in front of me right now, does Celestine have a preset warlord trait if you make her the warlord or is she stuck with the 3 main rulebook ones?
Audustum wrote: Hey, I don't have my book in front of me right now, does Celestine have a preset warlord trait if you make her the warlord or is she stuck with the 3 main rulebook ones?
Beacon of Faith
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's +1 Miracle dice at the start of your turn while your Warlord is on the battlefield. It's honestly better on a hidden back field Canoness with the Litanies of Faith Relic
Audustum wrote: Hey, I don't have my book in front of me right now, does Celestine have a preset warlord trait if you make her the warlord or is she stuck with the 3 main rulebook ones?
Beacon of Faith
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's +1 Miracle dice at the start of your turn while your Warlord is on the battlefield. It's honestly better on a hidden back field Canoness with the Litanies of Faith Relic
Thanks! Yeah, it's what I was thinking of taking anyway, but on a Cannoness.
Not even one little bit. The Datasheet are the rules. The end. Barring an FAQ, they are. A points guide is just a bunch of summaries of...points. no rules. This isnt complicated.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I got to play again today. This time against Mechanicus forces. Sooo many robots that can fire soooo many times.
So heroine in the making can be used on repentia superior, imagifier, etc. Worth it to give repents superior +1 shield of faith for repentance to have 5++/5+++?
Not even one little bit. The Datasheet are the rules. The end. Barring an FAQ, they are. A points guide is just a bunch of summaries of...points. no rules. This isnt complicated.
And unit sizes. Matched play points and unit sizes. You forgot that part when you repeated yourself unnecessarily. It seems what you have issue with is the validity of the field manual as a source of unit size values. If you haven't seen it, it has those, and in matched play that is the source of truth, so I'm really at a loss about why you think it wouldn't apply, but the section referring only to power level unit sizes somehow does. Curious approach indeed...
Oberron wrote: So heroine in the making can be used on repentia superior, imagifier, etc. Worth it to give repents superior +1 shield of faith for repentance to have 5++/5+++?
In my humble opinion the 5++ alone is not quite worth a CP by itself. But it certainly is if combined with Celestine, because that 4++ save is definitely useful. It takes a 9 woman units number of "pre-save wounds" from 10.8 (with 6++) to 13.5 (with 5++) to 18 (with 4++). They will still probably be focus fired and die once they are in the open, it just soaks up a bit more resources. ~27 bolter hits, rather than ~16.
Not even one little bit. The Datasheet are the rules. The end. Barring an FAQ, they are. A points guide is just a bunch of summaries of...points. no rules. This isnt complicated.
And unit sizes. Matched play points and unit sizes. You forgot that part when you repeated yourself unnecessarily. It seems what you have issue with is the validity of the field manual as a source of unit size values. If you haven't seen it, it has those, and in matched play that is the source of truth, so I'm really at a loss about why you think it wouldn't apply, but the section referring only to power level unit sizes somehow does. Curious approach indeed...
No. You just made a big deal out of a cut n paste error that has no bearing on the rules and accentuated it for no apparent reason.
Oberron wrote: So heroine in the making can be used on repentia superior, imagifier, etc. Worth it to give repents superior +1 shield of faith for repentance to have 5++/5+++?
In my humble opinion the 5++ alone is not quite worth a CP by itself. But it certainly is if combined with Celestine, because that 4++ save is definitely useful. It takes a 9 woman units number of "pre-save wounds" from 10.8 (with 6++) to 13.5 (with 5++) to 18 (with 4++). They will still probably be focus fired and die once they are in the open, it just soaks up a bit more resources. ~27 bolter hits, rather than ~16.
More actually. 5+++ as well.
Too bad trait doesn't boost inv save granted by celestian. 5++ flagelants would be sweet
Oberron wrote: So heroine in the making can be used on repentia superior, imagifier, etc. Worth it to give repents superior +1 shield of faith for repentance to have 5++/5+++?
I'd rather give an Imagifier the Book of St. Lucious.
Random note about miracle dice. While using them to pass rolls is most common it's not required. In 4 games i have played i have used once to fail since needed to to perform any act. Another time should have used to fail inv save for canoness when wounded by lascannon as i had card that gave d3 vp if character die.
Also at times when you want to hurt target but not kill(so you can charge it and get to objective for example) it could be useful
Oberron wrote: So heroine in the making can be used on repentia superior, imagifier, etc. Worth it to give repents superior +1 shield of faith for repentance to have 5++/5+++?
In my humble opinion the 5++ alone is not quite worth a CP by itself. But it certainly is if combined with Celestine, because that 4++ save is definitely useful. It takes a 9 woman units number of "pre-save wounds" from 10.8 (with 6++) to 13.5 (with 5++) to 18 (with 4++). They will still probably be focus fired and die once they are in the open, it just soaks up a bit more resources. ~27 bolter hits, rather than ~16.
So something I'm going to look into once I can get some sisters in hand. I've been thinking about ways to solve the multimelta issue for dominions. Perhaps guard multimelta, or even chopping up spare regular meltas for sisters is the answer. Basic idea is to use heavy flamer as a base and then slap melta bits on it and swap the nozzles. Should be fairly easy and the heavy flamer cables and bits are "close enough" most likely once you've got the melta nozzles in place of the flamer ones.
You would still need dominions, but at least this way you could get 4 multimelta per box, as opposed to pretty situational heavy bolters and flamers.
Not even one little bit. The Datasheet are the rules. The end. Barring an FAQ, they are. A points guide is just a bunch of summaries of...points. no rules. This isnt complicated.
And unit sizes. Matched play points and unit sizes. You forgot that part when you repeated yourself unnecessarily. It seems what you have issue with is the validity of the field manual as a source of unit size values. If you haven't seen it, it has those, and in matched play that is the source of truth, so I'm really at a loss about why you think it wouldn't apply, but the section referring only to power level unit sizes somehow does. Curious approach indeed...
No. You just made a big deal out of a cut n paste error that has no bearing on the rules and accentuated it for no apparent reason.
I apologize if I've upset you. I'm only warning people that the lack of clarity here has already caused TO's to field these questions and rule in conflicting ways. If it is happening in my local area, across both GW and local third party stores, then it could be happening where you are. Take it or leave it - only offering insight into TO treatment of the Field Manual, and as far as most folks are concerned, the TO determines reality and there is no amount of arguing you can do after a decision is made. Be prepared if you are going to load up on Mortifiers because people will challenge you on it - it's why I no longer field units of 6 myself.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So something I'm going to look into once I can get some sisters in hand. I've been thinking about ways to solve the multimelta issue for dominions. Perhaps guard multimelta, or even chopping up spare regular meltas for sisters is the answer. Basic idea is to use heavy flamer as a base and then slap melta bits on it and swap the nozzles. Should be fairly easy and the heavy flamer cables and bits are "close enough" most likely once you've got the melta nozzles in place of the flamer ones.
You would still need dominions, but at least this way you could get 4 multimelta per box, as opposed to pretty situational heavy bolters and flamers.
That is exactly what I have planned. I really don't think I will use any flamers, so I'm planning to convert them all into meltas.
Related: I've found it's fairly easy to make multimelta nozzles out of greenstuff:
Make a long roll of the right diameter.
Mark with a small notch the length of each nozzle.
Let cure partially, something like a couple of hours.
Use a sharp tool to make the horisontal indents along the roll.
Let cure completey overnight.
Cut into nozzles.
Bonus: drill a hole in the front.
And melta canisters are basically blobs of greenstuff.
Hi Guys, like many out there I was planning on starting a Sisters of Battle army... the only problem is that they seems a little underwhelming even in a non tournament context; I looked in 1d4 and blogs but I was hoping to get some general feedbacks from you as well.
Macro issue 1: they lack S9 or an efficent wounding manipolation for killing the most feared T8 tanks. A squad of multimelta retributors cannot even kill a Leman Russ with good positioning and 2cp strat.
Macro issue 2: they lack the plasma like fire for killing mass elite, CC units seem promessing but they will never reach Marine gunlines, lacking the ork/tyranids mobility or the chaos sheninigans.
Macro issue 3: all these issues that other armies have, is resolved via ridiculously low cost per model, which is not the case.
Am I missing something? Is the Miracle dice mecanic so powerful to balance all these liabilities?
Oberron wrote: So heroine in the making can be used on repentia superior, imagifier, etc. Worth it to give repents superior +1 shield of faith for repentance to have 5++/5+++?
In my humble opinion the 5++ alone is not quite worth a CP by itself. But it certainly is if combined with Celestine, because that 4++ save is definitely useful. It takes a 9 woman units number of "pre-save wounds" from 10.8 (with 6++) to 13.5 (with 5++) to 18 (with 4++). They will still probably be focus fired and die once they are in the open, it just soaks up a bit more resources. ~27 bolter hits, rather than ~16.
More actually. 5+++ as well.
Ha, you are right. I forgot about that.
So about 40 bolter hits with 4++ and 24 with 6++
Sounds like 1 cp to increase repentia survival by that much could be worth it since a 5++/5+++ is just about as good as a 3+ except it ignores ap. And it helps their durability in melee too. And it would effect multiple squads
Also with around 34 bolter hits that's going to be several squads worth more than the repentia focusing on them sounds like a very good distraction.
DarklyDreaming wrote: Hi Guys, like many out there I was planning on starting a Sisters of Battle army... the only problem is that they seems a little underwhelming even in a non tournament context; I looked in 1d4 and blogs but I was hoping to get some general feedbacks from you as well.
Macro issue 1: they lack S9 or an efficent wounding manipolation for killing the most feared T8 tanks. A squad of multimelta retributors cannot even kill a Leman Russ with good positioning and 2cp strat.
Macro issue 2: they lack the plasma like fire for killing mass elite, CC units seem promessing but they will never reach Marine gunlines, lacking the ork/tyranids mobility or the chaos sheninigans.
Macro issue 3: all these issues that other armies have, is resolved via ridiculously low cost per model, which is not the case.
Am I missing something? Is the Miracle dice mecanic so powerful to balance all these liabilities?
Exorcists are our main tank hunters; Multi-Melta Rets can nab a tank a turn with MD but they aren't the first place you generally look.
Issue 2 is largely treated with Storm Bolters and generally being a cheaper Elite army with easy access to Invulnerable saves. Valorous Heart is also a popular Order because it stretches this further with ignoring up to AP -2.
Issue 1: Exorcists and Sisters Repentia (Bloody Rose). Exorcists surprise me all the time with their output (I play Ebon Chalice, 6's for damage on demand).
2: For killing elites, Storm Bolters are the answer. The Blessed Bolts strat works wonders against good armor, multi wound targets (hi Primaris!)
3: Sisters actually seem fairly cheap. They're not Guard, for sure, but not terribly far off. The biggest issue I've noticed is the T:3 on the bulk of our stuff. Transports (esp. for CC units) helps, as does cover and all of Valorous Heart. Don't expect a squad to survive mass attacks though.
Cleric wrote: Issue 1: Exorcists and Sisters Repentia (Bloody Rose). Exorcists surprise me all the time with their output (I play Ebon Chalice, 6's for damage on demand).
2: For killing elites, Storm Bolters are the answer. The Blessed Bolts strat works wonders against good armor, multi wound targets (hi Primaris!)
3: Sisters actually seem fairly cheap. They're not Guard, for sure, but not terribly far off. The biggest issue I've noticed is the T:3 on the bulk of our stuff. Transports (esp. for CC units) helps, as does cover and all of Valorous Heart. Don't expect a squad to survive mass attacks though.
.
Exorcist tanks are cool. Death dealing machines now.
Storm bolter Dominion are pretty cool. I have been surprised by how many times I cannot maximize them because I am finding that going second is just better for my army. I have conceded going 1st more than once. For my specific build, what is normally a very good option has produced a bit less than hoped. Still really good but im pondering other options if I keep going second like im tending to do.
Sisters are not a elite army their basic troop unit might make you think they are, being not much less expensive then a tactical squad, but they don't have any real expensive units, so generally sisters can "weight of numbers" a fight, then take miracle dice which allows you to at key moments maximize random die rolls. this is important as when people discuss power levels etc they always tend to discuss the averages (as they should) sisters can break the average when the chips are really down. sisters seem to be doing reasonably well. I doubt they'll ever be topping tourny lists but they seem to be an army people are having fun with.
DarklyDreaming wrote: Hi Guys, like many out there I was planning on starting a Sisters of Battle army... the only problem is that they seems a little underwhelming even in a non tournament context; I looked in 1d4 and blogs but I was hoping to get some general feedbacks from you as well.
Macro issue 1: they lack S9 or an efficent wounding manipolation for killing the most feared T8 tanks. A squad of multimelta retributors cannot even kill a Leman Russ with good positioning and 2cp strat.
Macro issue 2: they lack the plasma like fire for killing mass elite, CC units seem promessing but they will never reach Marine gunlines, lacking the ork/tyranids mobility or the chaos sheninigans.
Macro issue 3: all these issues that other armies have, is resolved via ridiculously low cost per model, which is not the case.
Am I missing something? Is the Miracle dice mecanic so powerful to balance all these liabilities?
These are largely irrelevant. Not having S9 is canceled out by both having a fairly ridiculous number of S8 shots for the price(Exorcist) or AP-4(Retributors) which both negate the loss of strength on their own, before you consider that a Sisters army only really needs to land 2 shots to kill a 12 wound tank with D6 damage.
Plasma is vastly overrated, sisters struggle a bit to kill 2+ armor but between volume of shots, Blessed bolts, and melta, it's not that big of deal. Zephyrim can kill pretty much any space marine infantry unit outright out of deepstrike with a guaranteed charge roll, or also have a 30" max threat range first turn. Not that you particularly need to.
Considering a battle sister is 3+ 6++ immune to AP-1(most of the time) and has BS 3+ for 9 points, they are ridiculously low cost per model. If you play valorous heart, most space marine anti-infantry weapons are almost entirely worthless against you. A devastator doctrine imperial fist thunderfire cannon kills ONE battle sister per volley on average. It takes 3 full centurions to kill a unit of 5 battle sisters in cover, even in tactical doctrine.
DarklyDreaming wrote: Hi Guys, like many out there I was planning on starting a Sisters of Battle army... the only problem is that they seems a little underwhelming even in a non tournament context; I looked in 1d4 and blogs but I was hoping to get some general feedbacks from you as well.
Macro issue 1: they lack S9 or an efficent wounding manipolation for killing the most feared T8 tanks. A squad of multimelta retributors cannot even kill a Leman Russ with good positioning and 2cp strat.
Macro issue 2: they lack the plasma like fire for killing mass elite, CC units seem promessing but they will never reach Marine gunlines, lacking the ork/tyranids mobility or the chaos sheninigans.
Macro issue 3: all these issues that other armies have, is resolved via ridiculously low cost per model, which is not the case.
Am I missing something? Is the Miracle dice mecanic so powerful to balance all these liabilities?
1) I've killed just about anything I've targeted with Rets + Storm of Retribution (up to a Repulsor, which I believe is a harder target than a Leman Russ by 2-4 wounds?). They're really good. Everyone seems to give Exorcists strong praise, too, and they are a strong choice. Wounding on 4s vs wounding on 3s doesn't make those weapons necessarily bad. Also, don't forget things like Moment of Grace that can potentially turn a rolled 3 wound roll into a 4 in a pinch. Dice manipulation is this army's thing.
2) As everyone has said: Blessed Bolts on Storm Bolter Dominions. There's also a TON of STR 5 -1AP in the army, and it isn't a direct foil to Space Marine meta... it is a nice support element for the things that are.
3) This touches very lightly on something you've completely missed, especially in tournament play: Valorous Heart makes those 9 pt bodies probably some of the most efficient point cost models in the game. Killing off a 4 point guardsman is fairly trivial, even in cover. Killing off a Valorous Heart model takes a bit of work, and they make cover disgusting.
I think the biggest thing you've not touched is that sisters on the tabletop can be a BIG problem to shoot down. I don't think some of the better builds are going to table you in 2-3 turns, but they certainly CAN in the right circumstances... instead these builds are going to last longer and stick around well past the point of frustrating the opponents because they are a TON more durable than the standard 3T 3+ model if played a certain way.
If you were to look at the codex for 5m and just crash through the meaty sections like Stratagems, Relics, Warlord Traits, and some data slates that caught your fancy... and then formulated the opinion based off of that cursory glance, you may come up with a few erroneous assumptions. There's a surprising amount of finesse in how some of those rules interact with each other. For example: your Retributor squad with 4 MM can blow their cherubs (you did bring them, right?) to fire 6 times... if you get 2 through on a Leman Russ, it gets no armor save... and with the right combination of Miracle Dice, that thing could be slagged quickly... because you did bring a Simulacrum so you could spend 2 MD on your damage rolls, right? And then of course you have that squad with ablative wounds in cover for that 2+, don't you? And you're also ignoring -1 and -2 AP... and have a 6+++ and likely a 4++ for the first couple of turns, right? This army layers very well.
I am glad (and surprised!) to see you so optimistic about the new codex, I knew about the stratagem and miracles ofc, but I needed more opinions based on practical experience.
Do you think valorous heart is a go to or does the martyred Lady hold some value?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, since Blessed bolts is limited to only 4 storm bolters in a squad of dominions, running the math it just kills 4 primaris, are you sure is this devastating?
I would rank valorous heart and argent shroud as top ones with bloody rose vanquard for some chop chop h2h units as basic go to but that\s my initial theory hammering.
DarklyDreaming wrote: I am glad (and surprised!) to see you so optimistic about the new codex, I knew about the stratagem and miracles ofc, but I needed more opinions based on practical experience.
Do you think valorous heart is a go to or does the martyred Lady hold some value?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, since Blessed bolts is limited to only 4 storm bolters in a squad of dominions, running the math it just kills 4 primaris, are you sure is this devastating?
I'd say Valorous Heart is the "iron hands" of the sisters. Everyone and their dog can figure it out and make it work fairly easily. They're going to have a little variety but overall pretty straightforward. It's part of why I picked them, because I probably don't have the mental ability to master yet another army, so may as well take the easy option for once. plus these are beautiful models that I bought as a painting project and dammit you're gonna earn the right to take them off of the table
Given how the more experienced players here talk, I'm very excited to see how the other traits do, I have a feeling there's some very cool lists just waiting to get their time to shine once people get more games in and figure out the tricks. Bloody Rose hits like a truck and the way other traits can modify miracle dice could have some very powerful combos done correctly.
I think for the current shake-up of how things are being done on the table, Valorous Heart gives really good benefits. I've personally been running an Imagifier with Tale of the Stoic to get to the -2 AP ignoring, paying Heroine in the Making to give her Indomitable Belief, and then giving her the Book of Saint Lucius to extend both of those auras to 9".
Lurk Celestine around that line to pass out 4++ until you've dispersed enough of that -3AP volume fire your opponent can muster... don't just rocket her up the table like some cheap trick. She's much stronger in the later portions of the game when your opponent has much less to answer her with. I usually start getting a bit more pushy with her on turn 3.
5 Dominions with 4 Storm Bolters is 58 points? 4 Primaris bodies are what? 80-90? That's a pretty minimal investment to wipe out the squad for 1 CP. Otherwise, it is a cheap unit that throws out a healthy volume, and helps to fill a BDE a bit easier if that's your flavor.
Our Martyred Lady isn't bad, but I think the preponderance of -1 and -2 AP weapons with decent strength and high rate of fire throughout the environment, it becomes really hard to ignore Valorous Heart really stonewalling all of that. Taking away that AP is a very strong solution, especially if you can hug cover for a bit.
Our Martyred Lady would probably end up playing a bit more like a typical 40K game where both armies slug each other with haymakers until one collapses. Valorous Heart is going to play significantly different in that it wants to wear people down, weather the worst of it, and then grind through the endgame once your opponent's capacity has been blunted. I think this gives it a bit of an advantage in the current meta, but if plasma becomes popular, or -3 AP becomes standard, then you'll see other orders pick up and take over.
Valorous Heart seems to be the favorite for most competitive, mainly due to ignoring AP -1 and -2 if you have an Imigifier nearby, along with 6+ FNP. Bloody Rose, as mentioned above, for a Vanguard is pretty nice too. Those Repentia are nasty! I've been running Ebon Chalice for access to 6's for MD on demand, and 5+++ to MW is nice if the opponent is packing them. I ran a Batt of Martyred Lady my first game for MD generation, but that gave me way more than I ever used.
I think Martyred Lady lands well to running big squads, but usually people (myself included) like MSU. +1 to hit with Meltas in a full squad for ablative wounds with reroll 1's from either a Cannoness or the strat seems really nice too... but that feels pretty expensive, and requires your opponent to kill some but not all (and hopefully very few) of that squad. I just prefer Exorcists for the added range, toughness, and non circumstantial damage.
How have people been running the Triumph? I've been parking it back with my Exorcists, blocking in (protecting) my Warlord Cannoness with Beacon of Faith that is giving reroll 1's to the organs of death. I do this for the aforementioned protection (and counter charging anything on the tanks) and to let 2 exorcists use a MD for those sweet 6's on damage, but I feel like that's a very expensive buff unit for this.
DarklyDreaming wrote: I am glad (and surprised!) to see you so optimistic about the new codex, I knew about the stratagem and miracles ofc, but I needed more opinions based on practical experience.
Do you think valorous heart is a go to or does the martyred Lady hold some value?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, since Blessed bolts is limited to only 4 storm bolters in a squad of dominions, running the math it just kills 4 primaris, are you sure is this devastating?
I'd say Valorous Heart is the "iron hands" of the sisters. Everyone and their dog can figure it out and make it work fairly easily. They're going to have a little variety but overall pretty straightforward. It's part of why I picked them, because I probably don't have the mental ability to master yet another army, so may as well take the easy option for once. plus these are beautiful models that I bought as a painting project and dammit you're gonna earn the right to take them off of the table
Given how the more experienced players here talk, I'm very excited to see how the other traits do, I have a feeling there's some very cool lists just waiting to get their time to shine once people get more games in and figure out the tricks. Bloody Rose hits like a truck and the way other traits can modify miracle dice could have some very powerful combos done correctly.
Argent shroud, valorous heart and bloody rose are all A. Great and B. Great together.
And argent shroud battalion is an incredibly useful, cheap way to get 5 extra CP. For a bit over 350pts you can have 3 units of fast triple melta alongside a melta/brazier canoness and a missionary.
tneva82 wrote: I would rank valorous heart and argent shroud as top ones with bloody rose vanquard for some chop chop h2h units as basic go to but that\s my initial theory hammering.
I am using Valorous Heart and Argent Shroud. I am undefeated using that combination against a very wide range of armies and Generals. I am pretty pleased with the results event though here again, i am benefitting somewhat less from my Argent Shroud Dominion than i originally invisioned because again, i am choosing to go second so often.
I did a bunch of math trying to figure out what kind of melee units perform well against what kind of targets, and how useful the different buffing characters are. It's a fair bit of barely structured text so I put it in a spoiler.
TL;DR If you want to do a lot of damage in melee play Bloody Rose. Bring the Bloody Canoness, Repentia and a priest in a rhino. Zephyrim are also useful.
If you want some melee in a detachment that is not Bloody Rose, bring Arco-Flagellants and a priest in a rhino.
Spoiler:
The baseline unit is 8 sisters repentia. Because this leaves room for two characters in the rhino. Adding a ninth repentia increases damage by 12,5%.
8x sisters repentia, bloody rose. 24 attacks -> 18 hits.
Attacking Guardsmen: 15 wounds -> 15 through saves -> 15 dead guards
Attacking primaris marines: 12 wounds -> 12 through saves -> 12 dead primaris
With strat: 15 wounds -> 15 through saves -> 15 dead primaris (+25% damage)
Attacking custodes: 12 wounds -> 6 through saves -> 3 dead custodes
with strat: 15 wounds -> 7,5 through saves -> almost 4 dead custodes (+33% damage)
Attacking Harlequins: 15 wounds -> 7,5 through saves -> 7 dead harlequins
Wtih strat: no improvement
Attacking Leman Russ/knight: 6 wounds -> 6 through saves -> 12 damage
with strat: 9 wounds -> 9 through saves -> 18 damage (+50% damage)
With priest: 32 attacks. That's a flat +33% damage.
With Repentia Superior (reroll 1s to wound). That's a flat 17% increase in damage.
Attacking primaris marines: 12 wounds + 2 from reroll. 17% increase
With strat: 15 wounds + 2,5 from reroll. 17% increase
Attacking Leman russ/knight: 6 wounds + 1 from reroll. 17% increase
Canoness reroll 1s to hit only matter from round 2 and forward.
Imagifier, +1 Strength
Attacking Guardsmen: 15 wounds -> 15 through saves -> 15 dead guards. (No improvement)
Attacking Primaris: 15 wounds -> 15 through saves -> 15 dead primaris (+25% damage)
With strat: no further bonus
Attacking Leman russ/knight: 9 wounds -> 9 through saves -> 18 damage (+50% damage
with strat: 12 wounds -> 12 through saves -> 24 damage (+100% damage)
***
8x Arco-flagellants (including 1 Endurant). 17xd3 attacks -> 34 attacks -> 25,5 hits
Attacking Guardsmen: 17 wounds -> 14 through saves -> 14 dead guards
Attacking primaris marines: 17 wounds -> 8,5 through saves -> 4 dead primaris
Attacking Custodes (2+/4++): 13 wounds -> 4 through saves -> 1 dead custodes
Attacking harlequins: 17 wounds -> 8,5 through saves -> 8 dead harlequins
Attacking Leman Russ/Knight: 8,5 wounds -> 4 through saves -> 4 damage
With strat: A flat +50% damage.
With priest: A flat +47% damage
Priest multiplies with strat! for a total of 1,50x1,47 = 2,205 -> ~120% increase in damage.
***
8 Arco-flagellants or Repentia + 1 rhino is a total of 171 points (you are usually going to want to put one or two buffing character there as well)
For about the same amount of points you can get a full squad of 10 Zephyrim.
10 Zephyrim (including 1 superior), Bloody Rose. 31 attacks -> ~20,7 hits
Attacking Guardsmen: 15,5 wounds -> 15,5 through saves -> 15,5 dead guardsmen
with strat: 18,4 wounds -> 18,4 through saves -> 18,4 dead guardsmen (+ ~19% damage)
Attacking Primaris: 11,5 wounds -> 11,5 through saves -> nearly 6 dead primaris.
with strat: 15,5 wounds -> 15,5 through saves -> nearly 8 dead primaris (+ ~35% damage)
Attacking Leman Russ/Knight: 6,35 wounds -> 6,35 through saves -> about 6 damage.
with strat: 11,5 wounds -> 11,5 through saves -> 11,5 damage
Bonus: Can attack a hemlock or other pesky flyer with plenty of minus to hit with shooting.
Bonus: Have armour and decent invul saves. Can move around on their own.
Zephyrim are hard to keep buffing characters close to without gimping their movement. But if possible:
Priest: + ~30% damage
Imagifier: does a lot of difference against T 3,4,6 and 7
Celestine/Indomitable Belief: gives 4++
Canoness: about +17% damage from reroll 1's
***
Bloody canoness (Bloody Rose, with Beneficence and Righteous Rage): 8 attacks -> ~7,8 hits
Attacking Guardsmen: ~7 wounds -> 7 through saves -> 7 dead guardsmen
With strat: ~7,5 wounds -> 7,5 through saves -> 7,5 dead guardsmen
Attacking Primaris: 5,9 wounds -> 4,8 through saves -> 4,8 dead primaris
with strat: ~7 wounds -> ~6,8 through saves -> 6,8 dead primaris
Attacking Leman Russ/Knight: ~2,4 wounds -> ~2 through saves -> 4 damage
with strat: ~5 wounds -> ~4 through saves -> 8 damage
A priest only buffs her by about 12% damage.
An Imagifier with +1 Strength do a lot of difference against T4,5, 8 and 9.
***
Irate canoness (Bloody rose with Blade of Admonition and Blazing Ire): 6 attacks -> 5,8 hits
Attacking Primaris: 3,9 wounds -> 3,9 through saves -> ~4 dead primaris
Attacking Leman Russ/Knight: ~2 wounds -> 2 through saves -> 6 damage
With strat: ~3 wounds -> 3 through saves -> 9 damage
A priest buffs her by about 17% damage.
An imagifier with +1 Strength do a lot of difference against T3, 5, 6 and 10.
Really enjoying thinking up what the army can do. Ordered 2 BSS and some retributors for Saturday to go along with my sister's box that I already had. Think I'm going to VH to start with plenty of squads all with bolters and storm bolters. Retributors I am a bit torn between 4 HB for cheap dakka or 4 multi melta for pricey anti tank!
The question of soup came up a few pages back, and I was thinking about this too. But in my case specifically, i have 1 unit of Tempestus Scions, 1 Scion Command Squad, and a Tempestor Prime (all kitted for maximum plasma saturation). So i'm mainly curious what kind of a Sisters list folks think would work well in conjunction with these guys at 2000 points?... if any.
And yes, i know they're probably not necessary. I'd just love an excuse to use my models.
I think they'd slot well into just about any sisters list. Sisters tend to be light on plasma, not really having that "heavy infantry cracker" they'd be a good subsitute for dominions in a few lists.
Are Dominion Squads with 4 Meltas + Combi riding in a Repressor any good anymore? I know they can't scout the Repressors forward anymore, but it's still a nice box to protect your squishy girls while they shoot their meltas out of it and it gives a list some mobile firepower.
I think Dominions are going to be best with storm bolters. Exorcists and Retributors are doing that STR 8 showering now. I would take those meltaguns and spread them out along your basic troops or something of that nature.
Sentionaut wrote: The question of soup came up a few pages back, and I was thinking about this too. But in my case specifically, i have 1 unit of Tempestus Scions, 1 Scion Command Squad, and a Tempestor Prime (all kitted for maximum plasma saturation). So i'm mainly curious what kind of a Sisters list folks think would work well in conjunction with these guys at 2000 points?... if any.
And yes, i know they're probably not necessary. I'd just love an excuse to use my models.
I tried it at a 1,000 pts and it worked well. I actually ran a batallion of 3 squads, ccs, and primes.
They fill a key gap of sisters well and they're a cool thematic choice. A batallion of stormtroopers will probably be a great addition to sisters if you already have the models. They do a lot of stuff sisters can't, and are a good backup for seraphim and zephyrim dropping in. Not sure if they'll top tournaments but it doesn't really handicap you any. Plus you get the Stormtroopers doctrine for bonus shots in a pure detachment.
Bunch of questions regarding Sisters, so sorry it's a lot:
1) Has anyone run a list that had Valorous Heart, Argent Shroud, and Bloody Rose all in the same list? I suspect you can do some hefty min-maxing to make it work, but I'm not sure.
2) Are Missionaries decent to bring along as a cheap HQ, or do you think that it would be best to stick with Celestine and Cannonesses?
3) The special edition box came with one model with a flamer, and I derped hard enough not to think to change it to a Melta. So, any use for flamers?
4) Seraphim definitely want Bloody Rose and Dominions want Argent Shroud. If I want to run a Valorous Heart Brigade, which choice is hindered least by being brought in that detachment?
5) So I can plan purchases, what units benefit more from being brought as full squads? Which benefit most from MSU?
6) What do people think about Celestians? Are they any useful or do people think there's too much better (and cheaper) things to bring in the Elites slot?
Arcanis161 wrote: Bunch of questions regarding Sisters, so sorry it's a lot:
1) Has anyone run a list that had Valorous Heart, Argent Shroud, and Bloody Rose all in the same list? I suspect you can do some hefty min-maxing to make it work, but I'm not sure.
2) Are Missionaries decent to bring along as a cheap HQ, or do you think that it would be best to stick with Celestine and Cannonesses?
3) The special edition box came with one model with a flamer, and I derped hard enough not to think to change it to a Melta. So, any use for flamers?
4) Seraphim definitely want Bloody Rose and Dominions want Argent Shroud. If I want to run a Valorous Heart Brigade, which choice is hindered least by being brought in that detachment?
5) So I can plan purchases, what units benefit more from being brought as full squads? Which benefit most from MSU?
6) What do people think about Celestians? Are they any useful or do people think there's too much better (and cheaper) things to bring in the Elites slot?
Unless you're making use of their hymns with a Bloody Rose Vanguard, Missionaries only real purpose is to fill HQ slots that need it if you are following the Ro3 and have 3x Canoness already.
I actually don't hate the idea of Argent Shroud flamers (or flamers generally, but plenty of people do) alternatively, it shouldn't be hard to trim and change.
Seraphim are the better VH option, though I would definitely take a VH Dominion squad for the Blessed Bolts. (Basically, there's no write or wrong answer. Mix them up how you like to use them)
There's a case to be made for larger squads of Repentia and Arcos and some may make one for ablative wounds to Rets and Pen. Engine/Mortifier, but Sisters are traditionally, universally MSU
Celestians are cool. You've probably got enough different Elites to fill the slots without having what is largely more of the same, but you're not just actively hindering yourself by taking a squad of them
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dan2026 wrote: Am I right in thinking it's worth giving Retributors some extra bodies in the squad to soak damage away from the big guns?
Maybe even a full squad of 10.
It's not worthwhile generally. but if you have a gameplan with them a few extra bodies may help. Probably not 10 though.
Arcanis161 wrote: Bunch of questions regarding Sisters, so sorry it's a lot:
1) Has anyone run a list that had Valorous Heart, Argent Shroud, and Bloody Rose all in the same list? I suspect you can do some hefty min-maxing to make it work, but I'm not sure.
2) Are Missionaries decent to bring along as a cheap HQ, or do you think that it would be best to stick with Celestine and Cannonesses?
3) The special edition box came with one model with a flamer, and I derped hard enough not to think to change it to a Melta. So, any use for flamers?
4) Seraphim definitely want Bloody Rose and Dominions want Argent Shroud. If I want to run a Valorous Heart Brigade, which choice is hindered least by being brought in that detachment?
5) So I can plan purchases, what units benefit more from being brought as full squads? Which benefit most from MSU?
6) What do people think about Celestians? Are they any useful or do people think there's too much better (and cheaper) things to bring in the Elites slot?
I'm no expert as I've hardly played with Sisters, but from what I've seen and heard and my own limited experiences, I'll give a noob's opinion:
1) I don't think it's worth taking 3 different Orders, as you won't be able to take enough in each one to get the most from it. Valorous Heart is the go-to for most things, with Bloody Rose for units like Repentia, Zephyrim, and possibly Seraphim. The durability from VH is probably better than the mobility from AS, but then if you build around the mobility it could probably work well.
2) Missionaries are decent but only if you want to run melee options like Repentia or Arco-flagellants. Pretty much nothing else in the Sisters dex wants to be in combat other than Zephyrim, and they will outrun a Missionary usually, or deep strike away from him.
3) I'm not sure but what they could be an okay option as a counter-charge type unit, like something that sits in the backfield daring the opponent to try to invade. Storm Bolters are cheaper and do the job just as well usually though.
4) Dominions are probably hindered least, although Seraphim with Inferno Pistols don't care about being Bloody Rose, so take those in VH.
5) Retributors are probably good to bring in full units, as you want the extra bodies as ablative wounds before you start losing guns. Some people have been having success with full units of Battle Sisters too, and a Rhino full of Repentia or Arco-flagellants can be really funny with a Missionary or Preacher.
6) Celestians have one niche use and that is as a counter-sniper unit to keep your buff characters (Canonesses, Imagifiers) alive. Too bad their bodyguard rule is nowhere near as good as Tau Shield Drones or Ork Gretchin using the Grot Shields strat. Personally I think the Elites slot is best used by Imagifiers or Hospitallers, or if in a Bloody Rose detachment, Zephyrim and Repentia.
Sentionaut wrote: The question of soup came up a few pages back, and I was thinking about this too. But in my case specifically, i have 1 unit of Tempestus Scions, 1 Scion Command Squad, and a Tempestor Prime (all kitted for maximum plasma saturation). So i'm mainly curious what kind of a Sisters list folks think would work well in conjunction with these guys at 2000 points?... if any.
And yes, i know they're probably not necessary. I'd just love an excuse to use my models.
I've run similar combos in recent editions and they're solid. I haven't looked at their points lately, but they usually deliver. I haven't considered that vs. giving up Rites, but five dudes pack a lot of plasma, DS into tiny spaces, get some versatility from Orders, and aren't a huge points sink. I was running 1 Tempestor in the rear with some volley guns as a CP farm and objective camper and DSing the other Tempestor with a pair of minmaxed plasma squads. This feels like a CP hungry Codex, so I suspect you could do a lot worse.
Sentionaut wrote: The question of soup came up a few pages back, and I was thinking about this too. But in my case specifically, i have 1 unit of Tempestus Scions, 1 Scion Command Squad, and a Tempestor Prime (all kitted for maximum plasma saturation). So i'm mainly curious what kind of a Sisters list folks think would work well in conjunction with these guys at 2000 points?... if any.
And yes, i know they're probably not necessary. I'd just love an excuse to use my models.
Well for starter you want more scions so you can have 3 troop slots. As is you have patrol. You don't want to pay detachment and sacred rites for 0 cp.
You also want them to field plasma to hurt 2+ w2 models which are what sisters bang head against
Since i'm going to have an imagifier with +1 str and missionaries, you are looking at girls that outpunch a primaris marine in assault doctrine, and our chapter master is 45 points. incredibly useful as a turn 3/4 resource.
They can countercharge a death company or a green blob quite effectively. The fact that they also screen your chars is just a bonus.
For a 100 point unit they are not half bad (don't play them MSU, the stratagem is just too good).
Just a heads-up, I opened a "Plastic Sisters Hobby Thread" in the P&M forum... as much as I loved seeing everyone's color schemes a few pages back, it might help us preserve this space for tactical discussion. We're currently discussing casting multi-melta barrels with putty and resin...
The tactical thing I do want to bring up is crafting a deck of Tactical Objectives for the new CA 2019 "Schemes of War" missions. You need a minimum of 18 cards in your deck, five in your hand, and three in play on most turns, and the missions have mostly to do with manipulating your cards or your opponent's... so clearly inspired by tournament formats where players choose objectives that favor their army build.
So what would you take out of our current deck? What would your core selection for any game be, and what would you put into a sidebar that depended on which Order you're playing or which opponent you're facing? I'd love to see a list of "no matter what" and "if... then" selections. I'll probably play my first Schemes of War scenario this weekend with what looks like may be a common Sororitas build: Valorous Heart anvil + Bloody Rose hammer, so that's my perspective.
Here's the Sisters library:
Spoiler:
11 - Slay the Heretic (kill a Character with a Ministorum unit)
12 - Armor of Contempt (pass a SoF or DtW test)
13 - Reclaim the Relic (control a random objective at the end of turn)
14 - Trust in the Emperor (gain 3 or 6 Miracle Dice this turn)
15 - The Blood of Martyrs (1 if a Sororitas unit is destroyed, 3 if a Character)
16 - Leap of Faith (perform Acts of Faith: 1 for 1, d3 for 3, d3+3 for 6)
21-26 - Secure Objectives 1-6 (control objective marker X at end of turn)
31-36 - Defend Objectives 1-6 (control an objective for two consecutive turns)
41 - Advance (leave your DZ)
42 - Behind Enemy Lines (enter enemy DZ)
43 - Hold the Line (stay in your DZ)
44 - Mission Critical Objective (go claim or take away something specific)
45 - Supremacy (control any 3)
46 - Domination (control all)
51 - Overwhelming Firepower (kill things in Shooting phase)
52 - Blood and Guts (kill things in Fight phase)
53 - No Prisoners (destroy enemy units, preferably lots)
54 - Area Denial (clear out the center of the board)
55 - Psychological Warfare (force failed Morale tests)
56 - Master the Warp (manifest/deny, preferably lots)
61 - Kingslayer (extra for killing Warlord)
62 - Witch Hunter (kill a psyker)
63 - Scour the Skies (kill a flier)
64 - Assassinate (kill Characters, preferably lots)
65 - Big Game Hunter (kill big things)
66 - Priority Orders Received (go get a specific objectives with your Warlord)
Don't recall top of my heaa but mine has all secure and defend, supremacy, 14-16, 43, 51, 53, 54 . 20 cards so could be that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote: I'm putting celestians in my Bloody Rose army.
Since i'm going to have an imagifier with +1 str and missionaries, you are looking at girls that outpunch a primaris marine in assault doctrine, and our chapter master is 45 points. incredibly useful as a turn 3/4 resource.
They can countercharge a death company or a green blob quite effectively. The fact that they also screen your chars is just a bonus.
For a 100 point unit they are not half bad (don't play them MSU, the stratagem is just too good).
Been thinking bloody rose celestians myself as well. 41 attacks at s4 -1 doesn't seem that bad. Plus bolters and meltagun or two
So I have been looking at this stuff pretty hard the last few days and I had a question. From what I can tell the exorcist gets access to the vailent heart order and all the cool buffs from stuff like imagifier? So in other words 3 exorcists next to celestine, a canoness with +1 to shield of faith, and an imagifier becomes 3+/4++/6+++ ignore ap-1 and ap-2?
Spoletta wrote: I'm putting celestians in my Bloody Rose army.
Since i'm going to have an imagifier with +1 str and missionaries, you are looking at girls that outpunch a primaris marine in assault doctrine, and our chapter master is 45 points. incredibly useful as a turn 3/4 resource.
They can countercharge a death company or a green blob quite effectively. The fact that they also screen your chars is just a bonus.
For a 100 point unit they are not half bad (don't play them MSU, the stratagem is just too good).
Been thinking bloody rose celestians myself as well. 41 attacks at s4 -1 doesn't seem that bad. Plus bolters and meltagun or two
I think with BR and the aura buffs you'll almost always have, the extra point you pay per model is still a great deal. The only strike against them is that they don't help you fill six Troops and that there are cheaper Elites you'll also want, so they might squeeze your Brigade a bit. I'll run them this week in a double Battlion as 7x with PP/Chainsword plus Canoness, Preacher, and Imagifier in a Rhino to go anchor the bulk of my BR Sisters midfield.
Azuza001 wrote: So I have been looking at this stuff pretty hard the last few days and I had a question. From what I can tell the exorcist gets access to the vailent heart order and all the cool buffs from stuff like imagifier? So in other words 3 exorcists next to celestine, a canoness with +1 to shield of faith, and an imagifier becomes 3+/4++/6+++ ignore ap-1 and ap-2?
Celestine and the Indomitable Belief warlord trait both only improve the invul of infantry.
The Imagifier benefits them though and you can give them cover with a Battle Sanctum for 2+/6++/6+++ ignoring AP-1 and AP-2.
Azuza001 wrote: So I have been looking at this stuff pretty hard the last few days and I had a question. From what I can tell the exorcist gets access to the vailent heart order and all the cool buffs from stuff like imagifier? So in other words 3 exorcists next to celestine, a canoness with +1 to shield of faith, and an imagifier becomes 3+/4++/6+++ ignore ap-1 and ap-2?
The Shield of Faith buffs from Celestine and the warlord trait only apply to Infantry units, so you can't improve your tanks' Invul saves alas. The rest of it applies however, and ignoring AP -1 and -2 is pretty good in a Marine-heavy meta where a lot of anti-tank firepower is coming from high volumes of -2 shots.
Azuza001 wrote: So I have been looking at this stuff pretty hard the last few days and I had a question. From what I can tell the exorcist gets access to the vailent heart order and all the cool buffs from stuff like imagifier? So in other words 3 exorcists next to celestine, a canoness with +1 to shield of faith, and an imagifier becomes 3+/4++/6+++ ignore ap-1 and ap-2?
Celestine and the Indomitable Belief warlord trait both only improve the invul of infantry.
The Imagifier benefits them though and you can give them cover with a Battle Sanctum for 2+/6++/6+++ ignoring AP-1 and AP-2.
Was that faqed? Or is it a case of battlescribe being wrong? Sorry I dont get my codex till friday so am trying to plan purchases out. Both celestine and indomitable belief on batscrib say friendly units not friendly infantry units.
Azuza001 wrote: So I have been looking at this stuff pretty hard the last few days and I had a question. From what I can tell the exorcist gets access to the vailent heart order and all the cool buffs from stuff like imagifier? So in other words 3 exorcists next to celestine, a canoness with +1 to shield of faith, and an imagifier becomes 3+/4++/6+++ ignore ap-1 and ap-2?
Celestine and the Indomitable Belief warlord trait both only improve the invul of infantry.
The Imagifier benefits them though and you can give them cover with a Battle Sanctum for 2+/6++/6+++ ignoring AP-1 and AP-2.
Was that faqed? Or is it a case of battlescribe being wrong? Sorry I dont get my codex till friday so am trying to plan purchases out. Both celestine and indomitable belief on batscrib say friendly units not friendly infantry units.
My Codex says Infantry units. Battlescribe is wrong (or at least incomplete).
Azuza001 wrote: So I have been looking at this stuff pretty hard the last few days and I had a question. From what I can tell the exorcist gets access to the vailent heart order and all the cool buffs from stuff like imagifier? So in other words 3 exorcists next to celestine, a canoness with +1 to shield of faith, and an imagifier becomes 3+/4++/6+++ ignore ap-1 and ap-2?
Celestine and the Indomitable Belief warlord trait both only improve the invul of infantry.
The Imagifier benefits them though and you can give them cover with a Battle Sanctum for 2+/6++/6+++ ignoring AP-1 and AP-2.
Was that faqed? Or is it a case of battlescribe being wrong? Sorry I dont get my codex till friday so am trying to plan purchases out. Both celestine and indomitable belief on batscrib say friendly units not friendly infantry units.
My Codex says Infantry units. Battlescribe is wrong (or at least incomplete).
In my mind, given the sheer number of cards that are too situational, potentially binding you to poor decisions or outright impossible, all decks should probably run all the Secure (21-26) and Defend (31-36) cards. Even if there are more than 6 good cards remaining (which for some builds I'd say there certainly is), there's no point in not taking all 6 defend cards since you won't know which objectives are easy to hold until deployment is decided.
Cards I think are always good enough for the last 6, regardless of Order and pure army build: - Trust in the Emperor (14) - The Blood of Martyrs (15) - Leap of Faith (16) - Supremacy (43) - Overwhelming Firepower (51) - No Prisoners (53) - Area Denial (54)
Blood and Guts (52) I'd say is also a good include if you're running any Bloody Rose.
That's not to say you can't build a deck without Defend cards mind you. There's certainly enough average cards remaining (the ones involving killing characters or having killed the enemy warlord, having 1 or more units in the enemy deployement zone, if you have a solo Inquisitor potentially the 'manifest a psypower' one) that you could make a deck without them. I'm just not sure it'd be better.
Arcanis161 wrote: Bunch of questions regarding Sisters, so sorry it's a lot:
1) Has anyone run a list that had Valorous Heart, Argent Shroud, and Bloody Rose all in the same list? I suspect you can do some hefty min-maxing to make it work, but I'm not sure.
2) Are Missionaries decent to bring along as a cheap HQ, or do you think that it would be best to stick with Celestine and Cannonesses?
3) The special edition box came with one model with a flamer, and I derped hard enough not to think to change it to a Melta. So, any use for flamers?
4) Seraphim definitely want Bloody Rose and Dominions want Argent Shroud. If I want to run a Valorous Heart Brigade, which choice is hindered least by being brought in that detachment?
5) So I can plan purchases, what units benefit more from being brought as full squads? Which benefit most from MSU?
6) What do people think about Celestians? Are they any useful or do people think there's too much better (and cheaper) things to bring in the Elites slot?
I'm pretty much repeating what has been said but, I'll give my opinion:
1) Nope, I tend to run single Order. Easier on book keeping, allows me the freedom to bring the Sanctum detachment, and I find that doing something very well yields better results than doing a few things decently.
2) This is very difficult to answer. Canoness and Celestine will likely be your go-to for most situations. If you're running Arcos or Repentia, an argument can be made for buffing them via Missionaries. If you're just running them to save 10-20 points vs a Canoness, you're missing out on a lot of buffs that are definitely worth the points.
3) Niche uses. Miracle Dice cannot be used to replace number of shots rolls, which is sad faces. I've contemplated putting together a Dominion squad together with 4 Flamers + Combi-melta in an Immolator to have a mechanized squad that can threaten with Holy Trinity, but that is a unit that typically doesn't survive list building long enough to replace more practical options. You can also plop one into a battle sister squad for access to Holy Trinity, but I think a better config would be a meltagun + combi-flamer... but nothing saying you couldn't make it a combi-melta + flamer, there's cons and perks both ways. I think I typically put one in my 10-girl BSS.
4) Seraphim, but not for the reasons you would think. VH likes to play a bit like IH: they like to huddle around their stronger buffs and leverage them as long as reasonable early game. VH is also likely going to enjoy tough infantry units like Retributors in cover blasting the opponent and frustrating the return fire. Dominions can scout forward and still tactically enjoy that protection, if necessary, but Dominions with Storm Bolters are going to be low-threat units that can optionally use Blessed Bolts when needed. Seraphim, however, almost require dedicated CP to use Deadly Descent. They frequently strike up the table at a harder target for the heart of the army to reach. They're also very dangerous and draw a lot of attention, and typically run a bit more expensive point wise. If you're running a BDE, I would bring one of each, just because there's no point not to... having them opens up more avenues of attack. Seraphim, however, will be more vulnerable and exposed, as the typical VH army will not be able to support them where they need to go. VH Rets are also very CP hungry, so beware that when planning where that CP is going to go before dedicating 1 or 2 to Deadly Descent.
5) If you're planning "full squads", buy Battle Sister boxes. They slot into any of the other units as boltgun bodies. The box also produces Dominions and Celestians. 2 boxes of Retributors and 1 box of battle sisters gives you 2 max squads of Retributors, if that's your fancy. I am personally looking at a full squad of MM Retributors, a 5 girl Ret squad with 2 MMs, and a min squad of HB Rets (maybe 1-2 extra bodies for lols).
6) I've brought them and they've just been a bit confused. I understand that my characters are of upmost importance and target snipers accordingly, while trying to keep my characters from being tragically exposed to the return fire. If you can eliminate the sniper threat, Celestians lose a lot of their value, because you should be protecting your characters otherwise with screens and positioning. I typically still side on bringing a min squad with Storm Bolters because I stack a lot of buffs on my Imagifier (making her a lovely target), and I'd rather toss the Celestian points than having my shield come tumbling down. Typically, I run a min squad of Celestians, Imagifier, and Hospitaller as my elites in my BDE. You could run 2x Imagifier and Hospitaller, as well, and avoid them all together. I tend to give my Imagifier a Warlord Trait and a Relic, though, so she has a bit more value for me.
Hopefully that made a bit of sense of what you were asking?
ZergSmasher wrote: Are Dominion Squads with 4 Meltas + Combi riding in a Repressor any good anymore? I know they can't scout the Repressors forward anymore, but it's still a nice box to protect your squishy girls while they shoot their meltas out of it and it gives a list some mobile firepower.
It's just too expensive, especially considering that the vehicle can't benefit from the 4++ any more. For the same price as a repressor you'd be well on your way to a second squad of dominions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arcanis161 wrote: Bunch of questions regarding Sisters, so sorry it's a lot:
1) Has anyone run a list that had Valorous Heart, Argent Shroud, and Bloody Rose all in the same list? I suspect you can do some hefty min-maxing to make it work, but I'm not sure.
2) Are Missionaries decent to bring along as a cheap HQ, or do you think that it would be best to stick with Celestine and Cannonesses?
3) The special edition box came with one model with a flamer, and I derped hard enough not to think to change it to a Melta. So, any use for flamers?
4) Seraphim definitely want Bloody Rose and Dominions want Argent Shroud. If I want to run a Valorous Heart Brigade, which choice is hindered least by being brought in that detachment?
5) So I can plan purchases, what units benefit more from being brought as full squads? Which benefit most from MSU?
6) What do people think about Celestians? Are they any useful or do people think there's too much better (and cheaper) things to bring in the Elites slot?
1) Yes, though in practice 2 Conviction Brigade Battalion tends to give better results.
2) Absolutely bring missionaries as slot fillers. Canonesses are great, but it's hard to argue against having a priest or two kicking around.
3) No, they suck. Heavy flamers are okay, regular flamers are gak.
4) Seraphim, though Dominions are still fine if you want to save points.
5) Valrous Heart benefit big squads, nothing else benefits non-melee large units.
6) Some people like them as sniper screens, I personally think they're gak.
1 pts for extra attack, WS, LD and bodyguard plus full rerolls doesn't seem that bad of a deal for celestians. Except being in elite. With priest around that's nice counter charge unit to have around. Especially on army that benefits a tons of it's characters.
dan2026 wrote: Am I right in thinking it's worth giving Retributors some extra bodies in the squad to soak damage away from the big guns?
Maybe even a full squad of 10.
It's not worthwhile generally. but if you have a gameplan with them a few extra bodies may help. Probably not 10 though.
Why do you say its not worthwhile generally? Surely anything that can protect that 32point multi-melta is a good thing.
It's a question of whether or not it meaningfully protects those Multi-Melta and indeed if those Multi-Melta are worth the points in the first place.
A backfield of 4x VH Multi-Melta with access to a Hospitaller could be worth the extra bodies, but the unsupported 2x Multi-Melta with 2 Cherubs aren't going to survive the counterattack by having more wounds.
