I finally moved past my problem of selecting between Penitent Engines and Mortifiers.
Initially you think that mortifiers are much better, but then you analyze the fact that they are there only to be thrown at the enemy turn 1 and take pressure away from my sisters (bloody rose, they don't like to get shot). For that a Penitent Engine is better, since it is harder to take down and is a bit cheaper than the heavy flamer version of the mortifiers. At the same time though a mortifier has 2 inch extra speed, which makes it more likely to charge turn 2.
In the end I'm going to play 2 mortifiers and 3 engines, all of them running straight at the enemy!
Spoletta wrote: I finally moved past my problem of selecting between Penitent Engines and Mortifiers.
Initially you think that mortifiers are much better, but then you analyze the fact that they are there only to be thrown at the enemy turn 1 and take pressure away from my sisters (bloody rose, they don't like to get shot). For that a Penitent Engine is better, since it is harder to take down and is a bit cheaper than the heavy flamer version of the mortifiers. At the same time though a mortifier has 2 inch extra speed, which makes it more likely to charge turn 2.
In the end I'm going to play 2 mortifiers and 3 engines, all of them running straight at the enemy!
For me they are not there to rush toward enemy. That leaves them easy to be picked up by AT weapons. For me they are to deal with enemy units that charge into your units, quite possibly 3-pointing.
Spoletta wrote: I finally moved past my problem of selecting between Penitent Engines and Mortifiers.
Initially you think that mortifiers are much better, but then you analyze the fact that they are there only to be thrown at the enemy turn 1 and take pressure away from my sisters (bloody rose, they don't like to get shot). For that a Penitent Engine is better, since it is harder to take down and is a bit cheaper than the heavy flamer version of the mortifiers. At the same time though a mortifier has 2 inch extra speed, which makes it more likely to charge turn 2.
In the end I'm going to play 2 mortifiers and 3 engines, all of them running straight at the enemy!
For me they are not there to rush toward enemy. That leaves them easy to be picked up by AT weapons. For me they are to deal with enemy units that charge into your units, quite possibly 3-pointing.
AT fire not going at my Exos is AT fire I'm happy to take...
Spoletta wrote: I finally moved past my problem of selecting between Penitent Engines and Mortifiers.
Initially you think that mortifiers are much better, but then you analyze the fact that they are there only to be thrown at the enemy turn 1 and take pressure away from my sisters (bloody rose, they don't like to get shot). For that a Penitent Engine is better, since it is harder to take down and is a bit cheaper than the heavy flamer version of the mortifiers. At the same time though a mortifier has 2 inch extra speed, which makes it more likely to charge turn 2.
In the end I'm going to play 2 mortifiers and 3 engines, all of them running straight at the enemy!
For me they are not there to rush toward enemy. That leaves them easy to be picked up by AT weapons. For me they are to deal with enemy units that charge into your units, quite possibly 3-pointing.
AT fire not going at my Exos is AT fire I'm happy to take...
This. Morti's and Penitents are great distraction carnifexes.
Spoletta wrote: I finally moved past my problem of selecting between Penitent Engines and Mortifiers.
Initially you think that mortifiers are much better, but then you analyze the fact that they are there only to be thrown at the enemy turn 1 and take pressure away from my sisters (bloody rose, they don't like to get shot). For that a Penitent Engine is better, since it is harder to take down and is a bit cheaper than the heavy flamer version of the mortifiers. At the same time though a mortifier has 2 inch extra speed, which makes it more likely to charge turn 2.
In the end I'm going to play 2 mortifiers and 3 engines, all of them running straight at the enemy!
For me they are not there to rush toward enemy. That leaves them easy to be picked up by AT weapons. For me they are to deal with enemy units that charge into your units, quite possibly 3-pointing.
AT fire not going at my Exos is AT fire I'm happy to take...
At fire here being s5-s7 -1/-2 dam2/d3 type of high rof weapons
If a leviathan dreadnaught wants to shoot death a couple of penitent engines, that's a win in my book. Better 2 engines than 2 squads of sisters (i don't use exos).
I can't explain what makes them a trap, unless it's the cost vs what they do, but VH fixes it by ignoring AP -1, and by ignoring AP -2 by talking an Imagifier
Too many points in an easy opened package, i don't like them. You may inflict some damage, but if you don't go first you may find yourself short on a lot of points really fast.
With VH you can protect them, and that's about the only case where i would play them.
Spoletta wrote: Too many points in an easy opened package, i don't like them. You may inflict some damage, but if you don't go first you may find yourself short on a lot of points really fast.
With VH you can protect them, and that's about the only case where i would play them.
Pretty sure you're in a minority. My Exo's are giving everyone in my group a massive headache, especially playing Ebon Chalice where I can make 6+ saves whenever I need to.
Taikishi wrote: I can't explain what makes them a trap, unless it's the cost vs what they do, but VH fixes it by ignoring AP -1, and by ignoring AP -2 by talking an Imagifier
Spoletta wrote: Too many points in an easy opened package, i don't like them. You may inflict some damage, but if you don't go first you may find yourself short on a lot of points really fast.
With VH you can protect them, and that's about the only case where i would play them.
Pretty sure you're in a minority. My Exo's are giving everyone in my group a massive headache, especially playing Ebon Chalice where I can make 6+ saves whenever I need to.
Had both of my exos get put on their last bracket by repulsor shooting turn one, only to turn around and zap fry the repulsor executionor in return and survive to chunk out a regular repulsor.
3d3 with miracle dice means that even at 5+ to hit, they're still incredibly dangerous.
Spoletta wrote: Too many points in an easy opened package, i don't like them. You may inflict some damage, but if you don't go first you may find yourself short on a lot of points really fast.
With VH you can protect them, and that's about the only case where i would play them.
Not many out of los gun threatens exorcist and they have range and speed so you don't have to deploy at front in open if you go second
Spoletta wrote: Too many points in an easy opened package, i don't like them. You may inflict some damage, but if you don't go first you may find yourself short on a lot of points really fast.
With VH you can protect them, and that's about the only case where i would play them.
Pretty sure you're in a minority. My Exo's are giving everyone in my group a massive headache, especially playing Ebon Chalice where I can make 6+ saves whenever I need to.
Pretty sure you're in a minority. My Exo's are giving everyone in my group a massive headache, especially playing Ebon Chalice where I can make 6+ saves whenever I need to.
Well once for one vehicle anyway
Thats all you need sometimes. There's also Moment Of Grace. The more shots you force your opponent to waste the better and the fewer shots they have for other Exos. And like ERJACK said even on their last bracket Exorcists only need one or two hits to get through to mess something up.
Dipping my toes back for Sisters after over a year and with the advent of the new Codex.
I love my Repressors and good to see they didn’t put them in the dustbin yet. I see they don’t benefit from Acts of Faith / Sacred Rites but they do get Shield of Faith and benefit from <Order> convictions.
I do have a question which maybe I need to ask in YMDC, but I’ll ask here first:
Repressors now use the “open topped” rule for shooters within and cannot be affected by auras, but can innate abilities like the Divine Guidance Rite still be used? Also, for my MM Rets, could they use Armor Cherubs to get those extra shots?
Did a trial game proxying some guardsmen for sisters since my nephew has more than enough guardsmen to spare and I don't have any of my old sisters minis aside from a squad of retributors and a canoness converted from a sister superior. I'm really enjoying Bloody Rose.
Lammia wrote: Exos price point is in the range of Russ/Command Russ with few, more average shots, d6 damage and a 6++ save. I don't know we'll get them cheaper.
And a heavy bolter. A lot of people seem to forget it but it's something.
Also with vh even vehicles get a 6+++ fnp. It does make them hard to Crack but still not a trap when taken in other orders.
Melissia wrote: Yeah, definitely don't get your heavy bolter. You're paying for it after all.
Playing with the old models was a nightmare at the start but I'm beginning to remember them now, generally because it might plink a few more infantry off the board.
Been playing an escalation league and I gotta say even with a repentance superior giving them a 5++ for a cp they still fall apart but a rhino she'll really helps them get in combat. Also running a single mortifier since that is all I have at the moment and it really does some work shooting and once it gets into combat I feel that unless you're playing bloody Rose or taking three Exorcist to run the same point amount of mortifiers than to run repentia + rhino
Lammia wrote: Exos price point is in the range of Russ/Command Russ with few, more average shots, d6 damage and a 6++ save. I don't know we'll get them cheaper.
And a heavy bolter. A lot of people seem to forget it but it's something.
Also with vh even vehicles get a 6+++ fnp. It does make them hard to Crack but still not a trap when taken in other orders.
Russ have to take a heavy bolter or lascanon too, so the likeness is just closer
I know people keep saying "do five girl squads with all of the special weapons for your mechanized sisters", but I feel like that's incredibly fragile of a force even by Sisters standards... been working on my list based on peoples' feedback, but not liking how it's turning out so far based on the recommendation of using five-member battle sister squads.
Melissia wrote: I know people keep saying "do five girl squads with all of the special weapons for your mechanized sisters", but I feel like that's incredibly fragile of a force even by Sisters standards... been working on my list based on peoples' feedback, but not liking how it's turning out so far based on the recommendation of using five-member battle sister squads.
if you like the 10 sister squad go for it. maybe you've figured something others haven't. problem with a MSU 5 man sisters squad is you don't really have ANY ablative wounds.
you've got 1 sister superior, 2 special weapons sisters, a simiclium sister and a single regular sister. that's not a lot of loses before you start taking your valuable support options.
You have twice as many special weapons. Even after losing 1 you have more. When you lose 2 you are in same spot except morale is less issue and opponent could have wasted overkil' at which point you are in better shape as you have 5 sisters vs 2-3 10 strong squad would have.
10 is the softer target. You don"' take 10 for survability as you make yourself softer. You take 10 to maximize 1 unit targeting buffs.
Melissia wrote: I know people keep saying "do five girl squads with all of the special weapons for your mechanized sisters", but I feel like that's incredibly fragile of a force even by Sisters standards... been working on my list based on peoples' feedback, but not liking how it's turning out so far based on the recommendation of using five-member battle sister squads.
Sisters are funny because you really need to use them to get a feel for them. Of all the armies I play they're the hardest to get a feel for in list building. All the auras and such combine in such a way that isn't well represented just by looking at a list.
And you pay for it. Each lost wound is worth more points that way, meaning your enemy's rewarded for each kill far more than if you had ten sisters per squad. Sisters aren't Space Marines. They're more fragile, with their T3, even with the other things they have. As someone who plays both Marines and Sisters, that T4 makes a HUGE difference.
And you pay for it. Each lost wound is worth more points that way, meaning your enemy's rewarded for each kill far more than if you had ten sisters per squad. Sisters aren't Space Marines. They're more fragile, with their T3, even with the other things they have. As someone who plays both Marines and Sisters, that T4 makes a HUGE difference.
Given that the points paid for a storm bolter is less than what I pay when I'm sticking upgrades on my tanks to make up those last 15pts or so I don't think its that big an issue.
And you pay for it. Each lost wound is worth more points that way, meaning your enemy's rewarded for each kill far more than if you had ten sisters per squad. Sisters aren't Space Marines. They're more fragile, with their T3, even with the other things they have. As someone who plays both Marines and Sisters, that T4 makes a HUGE difference.
Given that the points paid for a storm bolter is less than what I pay when I'm sticking upgrades on my tanks to make up those last 15pts or so I don't think its that big an issue.
Storm bolters sure, but you see plenty of meltas and particularly combi-meltas around.
I agree that 2x storm bolters and nothing else is the way to go for 5 women squads, but anything more expensive (except maybe a single combi-melta on the superior, so you still got 4 meat-shields before she goes down) I'd definitely go for additional bodies, even for non-SB Dominion or Retributor squads (unless you stick them into a transport and run into capacity issues otherwise).
I'm just copy what I wrote on the subject in another thread:
Having 3 meltas in a squad of 5 seems like an easy way to bleed points when the other player only has to kill 2 bodies before he gets to kill squishy 23 and 24 point models.
Sure, at first glance "not losing models to morale" sounds pretty good, until you realize you are achieving that by getting your special weapons that cost at least two and half times as many points per model killed instead and having the squad wiped.
Well, unless you put them into a Rhino, but then you might as well take Celestians, Dominions or particularly Seraphim instead who give you more bang for your investment.
As far as Battle Sisters Squads with Melta are concerned, I'd either go with a single melta and a storm bolter in a squad of 5 or 2 melta+ combi and 4-5 extra bodies. Thanks to miracle dice, even having a single melta is a serious deterrent (you hit and wound? Insta 5 or 6 damage. Or you get charged by some monstrosity and you just use a miracle dice to get that 6 you need to hit during overwatch for some tasty damage), especially if they are spread throughout multiple squads. Or you go horde because Sisters have plenty of ways to minimize morale issues (a single missionary prevents 50% of all morale casualties AND hands out +1 Attack to the entire blob in addition to being dirt cheap and filling a HQ slot) and several Orders that favor that approach, have 2 melta + combi and 4-7 extra bodies to keep those special weapons worth 70 points alive and making a Simulacrum worthwhile (which in turn again makes the squad even more dangerous).
TL;DR: Sisters already have a high LD (you need to take 3+ losses before there is even a slim risk of losing another model), have a multitude of easy ways to buff LD or make morale losses a non-issue, which often also synergize really well with a horde playstyle (missionary giving +1A to all models in 6" AND halving all morale losses, in addition to being cheap and filling a HQ slot), with several orders also enouraging such a playstyle and bringing plenty of sisters infantry in bigger units along, such as Argent Shroud, Bloody Rose and Martyred Lady. Big units with meltas also enable better buffing and make them valuable miracle dice targets thanks to a simulacrum suddenly being worthwhile.
That's not to mention that having a chance to take a lot of morale-tests you cannot possibly fail (or have like a 8%/16% chance to lose one/two 9pt model(s)) is a valuable source to farm additional miracle dice every turn. And even if you lose like 7 models out of a 12 model unit in a single turn, you can easily use a low value miracle dice (especially a 1) to auto-pass, something other armies have to pay 2 CP for.
Thus the risk of morale losses is overrated for sisters as I'd argue , as has been shown with at least one tournament winning list having been posted here having 11-15 model sister squads.
Sim-Life wrote: I dunno. I felt morale losses more with Sisters than most of my other armies.
And I felt very little effect from morale with my sisters playtest game, using the 10-size squads (I was proxying guardsmen for sisters, as obviously I didn't have any of the new minis and the only old minis I hadn't sold off was a canoness and a retributor squad). Sisters just have so many ways of not caring about morale.
BrianDavion wrote: On a practical mindset, GW's sisters box is clearly designed for ten man squads. you'll have to do some converting if you want 5 man squads.
Which is funny, considering they have a "Dominion+Celestian squad" product (i.e. one of the gazillion different products which are just a single Battle SistersSquad box with different store photos) in their webstore where only one of the two squads has a recognizable Superior.
BrianDavion wrote: On a practical mindset, GW's sisters box is clearly designed for ten man squads. you'll have to do some converting if you want 5 man squads.
Which is funny, considering they have a "Dominion+Celestian squad" product (i.e. one of the gazillion different products which are just a single Battle SistersSquad box with different store photos) in their webstore where only one of the two squads has a recognizable Superior.
Are there decorative parts in the kit that could be used to mark a Superior? Perhaps that would help. Also, putting a Combi-weapon on a model would immediately pick her out as the Superior. Of course, GW is probably wily enough to make sure any Superior-specific weapons will only fit on the Superior body.
BrianDavion wrote: On a practical mindset, GW's sisters box is clearly designed for ten man squads. you'll have to do some converting if you want 5 man squads.
Which is funny, considering they have a "Dominion+Celestian squad" product (i.e. one of the gazillion different products which are just a single Battle SistersSquad box with different store photos) in their webstore where only one of the two squads has a recognizable Superior.
Ain't there a chainsword in a scabbard as well as one in hand? That's two easy superiors long as you arm em with boltguns.
Also are the kits that hard to just cut the hand off one arm and stick it on another? I remember chaos marines being a challenge for similar reasons but ultimately doable. They can't be impossible to convert and modfiy a bit.
BrianDavion wrote: On a practical mindset, GW's sisters box is clearly designed for ten man squads. you'll have to do some converting if you want 5 man squads.
Which is funny, considering they have a "Dominion+Celestian squad" product (i.e. one of the gazillion different products which are just a single Battle SistersSquad box with different store photos) in their webstore where only one of the two squads has a recognizable Superior.
Ain't there a chainsword in a scabbard as well as one in hand? That's two easy superiors long as you arm em with boltguns.
Also are the kits that hard to just cut the hand off one arm and stick it on another? I remember chaos marines being a challenge for similar reasons but ultimately doable. They can't be impossible to convert and modfiy a bit.
They don't really have arms. The robes are the pieces that would normally be their arms. It make fitting the alternate weapons tricky. 1 sculpt(the one running forward) is fairly easy to just slap a melta or Stormbolter onto. The two that would otherwise be heavy weapons are a significant conversion to give the specials too (largely because every single special has 2 hands on the grip and are right handed where the pointing finger and grenade are rather than being on the side that has the bolter weapon) The one with the cybernetic arm isn't too bad but will certainly take some finagling and green struff to equip with a melta/stormbolter.
Melissia wrote: I know people keep saying "do five girl squads with all of the special weapons for your mechanized sisters", but I feel like that's incredibly fragile of a force even by Sisters standards... been working on my list based on peoples' feedback, but not liking how it's turning out so far based on the recommendation of using five-member battle sister squads.
if you like the 10 sister squad go for it. maybe you've figured something others haven't. problem with a MSU 5 man sisters squad is you don't really have ANY ablative wounds.
you've got 1 sister superior, 2 special weapons sisters, a simiclium sister and a single regular sister. that's not a lot of loses before you start taking your valuable support options.
Honestly? The problem isn't min squad vs max squads. The problem is trying to do mechanized sisters. Immolators are trash, repressors have been nerfed 3 times now (loss of scount, CA point increase, FAQ that stopped them from being the best transport in the game), and rhinos are mostly 67 point coffins at this point.
Mech lists are largely dead. If you want to focus on battle sisters, Argent Shroud with the +1 run sacred rite on foot are your best bet.
And you pay for it. Each lost wound is worth more points that way, meaning your enemy's rewarded for each kill far more than if you had ten sisters per squad. Sisters aren't Space Marines. They're more fragile, with their T3, even with the other things they have. As someone who plays both Marines and Sisters, that T4 makes a HUGE difference.
Given that the points paid for a storm bolter is less than what I pay when I'm sticking upgrades on my tanks to make up those last 15pts or so I don't think its that big an issue.
Storm bolters sure, but you see plenty of meltas and particularly combi-meltas around.
I agree that 2x storm bolters and nothing else is the way to go for 5 women squads, but anything more expensive (except maybe a single combi-melta on the superior, so you still got 4 meat-shields before she goes down) I'd definitely go for additional bodies, even for non-SB Dominion or Retributor squads (unless you stick them into a transport and run into capacity issues otherwise).
I'm just copy what I wrote on the subject in another thread:
Having 3 meltas in a squad of 5 seems like an easy way to bleed points when the other player only has to kill 2 bodies before he gets to kill squishy 23 and 24 point models.
Sure, at first glance "not losing models to morale" sounds pretty good, until you realize you are achieving that by getting your special weapons that cost at least two and half times as many points per model killed instead and having the squad wiped.
Well, unless you put them into a Rhino, but then you might as well take Celestians, Dominions or particularly Seraphim instead who give you more bang for your investment.
As far as Battle Sisters Squads with Melta are concerned, I'd either go with a single melta and a storm bolter in a squad of 5 or 2 melta+ combi and 4-5 extra bodies. Thanks to miracle dice, even having a single melta is a serious deterrent (you hit and wound? Insta 5 or 6 damage. Or you get charged by some monstrosity and you just use a miracle dice to get that 6 you need to hit during overwatch for some tasty damage), especially if they are spread throughout multiple squads. Or you go horde because Sisters have plenty of ways to minimize morale issues (a single missionary prevents 50% of all morale casualties AND hands out +1 Attack to the entire blob in addition to being dirt cheap and filling a HQ slot) and several Orders that favor that approach, have 2 melta + combi and 4-7 extra bodies to keep those special weapons worth 70 points alive and making a Simulacrum worthwhile (which in turn again makes the squad even more dangerous).
TL;DR: Sisters already have a high LD (you need to take 3+ losses before there is even a slim risk of losing another model), have a multitude of easy ways to buff LD or make morale losses a non-issue, which often also synergize really well with a horde playstyle (missionary giving +1A to all models in 6" AND halving all morale losses, in addition to being cheap and filling a HQ slot), with several orders also enouraging such a playstyle and bringing plenty of sisters infantry in bigger units along, such as Argent Shroud, Bloody Rose and Martyred Lady. Big units with meltas also enable better buffing and make them valuable miracle dice targets thanks to a simulacrum suddenly being worthwhile.
That's not to mention that having a chance to take a lot of morale-tests you cannot possibly fail (or have like a 8%/16% chance to lose one/two 9pt model(s)) is a valuable source to farm additional miracle dice every turn. And even if you lose like 7 models out of a 12 model unit in a single turn, you can easily use a low value miracle dice (especially a 1) to auto-pass, something other armies have to pay 2 CP for.
Thus the risk of morale losses is overrated for sisters as I'd argue , as has been shown with at least one tournament winning list having been posted here having 11-15 model sister squads.
The problem isn't morale losses, the problem is that every point you spend on ablative battle sisters is a point that can't go into something else. If you need to invest 45pts in purely ablative wounds, that's probably not the unit you should have been running in the first place. If you're running the extra battle sisters because you have a TON of battle sister bodies that overwhelm your opponent's anti-infantry capabilities, that's a different story. Those wounds aren't ablative, they're crucial to your strategy.
Build your units for what you intend to use them for. I build my melta BSS as minimum squads with double melta combi-melta simulacrum because 1. I only run 3 in a small argent shroud battalion I have largely for the extra CP. 2. I try to keep them out of LoS and under the radar until they have a chance to pounce on something and 3. I also use them as a distraction carnifex that for 93 points I can afford to lose if it protects my other units for a turn.
I played my second game with the Codex today. My first was a tough loss to Necrons with pure Valorous Heart. Today's matchup was Double Battalions of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose vs. Primaris Ultramarines. I was up 7-2 after two turns with pretty solid board control and we were tight on time with other commitments... we called it and I'll take as a soft victory. The Sisters were strong in all phases of the game, which was nice. I may or may not get around to a full BatRep, but here are some general thoughts and the two lists. I'll also make a note at some point about Tactical Objective choices, which I think really helped me.
In no particular order: In general I was impressed with Bloody Rose. The +1S Imagifier and a Preacher are pretty key, and -1AP is useful. I ran two Exos instead of three and they still punched pretty hard. Agressors are no joke and merit a turn 1 Exorcist volley. Blessed Bolts may be an every turn stratagem. Canonesses hit hard for their points and I may run three of them all the time. Valorous Heart had staying power, especially with Prepared Positions.
2000 point - Covert Maneuvers (CA 19) - Vanguard Strike
A Bloody Rose Canoness with the Blessed Blade killed a Primaris Captain in one Fight phase
A unit of five Dominions with Stormbolters and Blessed Bolts killed a fresh unit of Intercessors
A Bloody Rose Canoness with Beneficence and a Penitent Engine killed a fresh unit of Intercessors
Celestine and a Penitent Engine did 18 Wounds to a Redemptor Dreadnought in a single phase
Two Exorcists killed a Predator in a single phase
Two Exorcists killed four of five Aggressors in a single phase
Five Aggressors killed five Seraphim and five Retributers in a single phase
Stratagems I used, some more than once:
Blessed Bolts
Deadly Descent
Desperate for Redemption
Devastating Refrain
BrianDavion wrote: On a practical mindset, GW's sisters box is clearly designed for ten man squads. you'll have to do some converting if you want 5 man squads.
Which is funny, considering they have a "Dominion+Celestian squad" product (i.e. one of the gazillion different products which are just a single Battle SistersSquad box with different store photos) in their webstore where only one of the two squads has a recognizable Superior.
A sister superior is OPTIONAL for Celestian squads, there's no reason you'd not give em one mechanicly, but they don't need one according to the rules. sicne they're all veterns and stuff
I can't decide if Retributors are worth it or not.
I am starting to feel more and more than they are just a very expensive small squad that will be wiped out before they can accomplish much of anything.
If only they could deep strike with their heavy flamers.
dan2026 wrote: I can't decide if Retributors are worth it or not.
I am starting to feel more and more than they are just a very expensive small squad that will be wiped out before they can accomplish much of anything.
If only they could deep strike with their heavy flamers.
I'm still not sure if I want ablative bodies on them or not. I have a hard time taking them over Exorcists but then the first time I used them I forgot about the armorium cherubs and the second time they fluffed their rolls so they haven't gotten a fair shake really. In fairness the second time they DID kill a maulerfiend in one round despite missing most of their shots.
To be honest I don't see Retributors as being in danger of being focus fired on so much they get deleted turn one. Not when you have Exorcists, Penitent Engines, and so on.
Melissia wrote: To be honest I don't see Retributors as being in danger of being focus fired on so much they get deleted turn one. Not when you have Exorcists, Penitent Engines, and so on.
I might try a Hopitalier instead of extra Sisters. If they're VH/Cover then the 2+ save should keep them standing and the doctor should keep the odd one that falls standing.
Bought some retributors and a few boxes of sisters, going for 5 strong units of sisters with 2 SB in each to keep them cheap. Torn between making the retributors 4 MM or HB. I'm intending to use the trait where 6s to wound give an extra AP so think bolters en masse will do a bit of damage!
Rogerio134134 wrote: Bought some retributors and a few boxes of sisters, going for 5 strong units of sisters with 2 SB in each to keep them cheap. Torn between making the retributors 4 MM or HB. I'm intending to use the trait where 6s to wound give an extra AP so think bolters en masse will do a bit of damage!
Keep in mind even with 4 HB's it's just bit over 1 extra AP wound in average. Albeit better vs vehicles in a sense half your wounds are with extra AP but not good use of heavy bolters.
Really question is what you want to use retributions for. Anti infantry or anti tank? Presumably if you take HB retributions you will have 3 exorcists? As those 2 are main source of ranged AT and relying on just melta guns as anti tank is bit risky. 24" is already bit of a short range let alone 12"!
I don't think heavy bolters on Rets are really worth it as it stands. Sisters aren't hurting for anti-infantry guns. Also multi-meltas benefit far more from Storm Of Dominion than heavy bolters. I'd actually consider Heavy Flamers a better choice than heavy bolters when you take the strat into account.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Bought some retributors and a few boxes of sisters, going for 5 strong units of sisters with 2 SB in each to keep them cheap. Torn between making the retributors 4 MM or HB. I'm intending to use the trait where 6s to wound give an extra AP so think bolters en masse will do a bit of damage!
I mean, you could 2 of each and 2 Cherubs and run them as a suicidal squad?
I'd also be careful of committing to heavily to one Sacred Rite. Their biggest advantage is flexibility
Sim-Life wrote: I don't think heavy bolters on Rets are really worth it as it stands. Sisters aren't hurting for anti-infantry guns. Also multi-meltas benefit far more from Storm Of Dominion than heavy bolters. I'd actually consider Heavy Flamers a better choice than heavy bolters when you take the strat into account.
Not using that strat saves you 2cp a turn though. Just because unit has stratagem doesn"t mean you have to use one. In all the times i have used lychguard i have used their stratagem once and that was for lols rather than because it was useful.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Bought some retributors and a few boxes of sisters, going for 5 strong units of sisters with 2 SB in each to keep them cheap. Torn between making the retributors 4 MM or HB. I'm intending to use the trait where 6s to wound give an extra AP so think bolters en masse will do a bit of damage!
I mean, you could 2 of each and 2 Cherubs and run them as a suicidal squad?
I'd also be careful of committing to heavily to one Sacred Rite. Their biggest advantage is flexibility
Building a list so that you can effectively pick a single sacred rite just seems like the best possible usage of them to me. Valorous Heart shooting heavy lists will gain A LOT from divine guidance, the same way pure argent shroud lists will LOVE+1 to run and pure Bloody Rose lists get a ton of value out of the passion.
Sim-Life wrote: I don't think heavy bolters on Rets are really worth it as it stands. Sisters aren't hurting for anti-infantry guns. Also multi-meltas benefit far more from Storm Of Dominion than heavy bolters. I'd actually consider Heavy Flamers a better choice than heavy bolters when you take the strat into account.
Not using that strat saves you 2cp a turn though. Just because unit has stratagem doesn"t mean you have to use one. In all the times i have used lychguard i have used their stratagem once and that was for lols rather than because it was useful.
Another thing to consider is that 4 heavy bolter retributors are 90 points for 12 shots and 2 heavy bolter mortifiers are 112 points for 12 shots while also being mortifiers.
dan2026 wrote: I can't decide if Retributors are worth it or not.
I am starting to feel more and more than they are just a very expensive small squad that will be wiped out before they can accomplish much of anything.
If only they could deep strike with their heavy flamers.
I'm still not sure if I want ablative bodies on them or not. I have a hard time taking them over Exorcists but then the first time I used them I forgot about the armorium cherubs and the second time they fluffed their rolls so they haven't gotten a fair shake really. In fairness the second time they DID kill a maulerfiend in one round despite missing most of their shots.
MM rets are one of the few units that REALLY benefit from ablative wounds. A valorous heart retributor squad with the 4++ is harder for most armies to shift than an exorcist is.
ERJAK wrote: Another thing to consider is that 4 heavy bolter retributors are 90 points for 12 shots and 2 heavy bolter mortifiers are 112 points for 12 shots while also being mortifiers.
For valorous heart at least retributions will provide lot tougher platform tough. Mortifiers pop in soft breeze. 3+ ignoring -2 in cover meanwhile survives quite nicely.
ERJAK wrote: Another thing to consider is that 4 heavy bolter retributors are 90 points for 12 shots and 2 heavy bolter mortifiers are 112 points for 12 shots while also being mortifiers.
For valorous heart at least retributions will provide lot tougher platform tough. Mortifiers pop in soft breeze. 3+ ignoring -2 in cover meanwhile survives quite nicely.
I was considering some HB Rets, but I think scattering HBs into sisters squads that are sitting in back field is a better option.
I don't want basic squads sitting backfield with mostly 24" ranged weapons. They are there to push forward to deny easy access to backfield units and take objectives.
Having 1 heavy weapon means either sister squad is sitting down or heavy bolter is hitting on 4+.
Plus retributions can move and shoot without penalty. Even with range handy for getting LOS.
Yeah, I wasn't thinking all squads. Just the couple that sit back and babysit backfield objectives/deny deepstrike. Forward squads are getting storm bolters and/or meltaguns.
Did anyone find a use for Holy Trinity? I'm thinking of running Brigade of VH and a different detachment of BR. Thing is with VH brigade having 6 squads of sisters is a lot....and their firepower is a bit meh.
I was thinking of 2 lots of Stormbolter Dominions for Blessed bolts. 2 since I assume the opponent will nuke the Dominions once they know what they can do. But blessed bolts can only be used once per turn. I was thinking of maybe loading up 1 or 2 of the 6 basic VH sister squads with the cheap combi-melta, combi-flamer, stormbolter config.
Trinity gives +1 to wound which is not bad and certainly helps out the BSS squad bolters and flamers. Its just another strat on top of blessed bolts that can be used to kick up damage a gear. I'd take the extra -1 AP on 6 to wound rite as well.
2k all infantry spam trying to work with what's currently available plus conversion parts. Aiming list for competive tournament. Brigade and argent shroud to compensate lack of -2 ignoring(no imagifiers).
Spoiler:
Canoness(blessed blade, plasma pistol, iron surplice, indominable belief)
celestine(warlord)
missionary
10xcelestian(2xmeltagun, power maul, combi melta, banner, cherub)
preacher(just to fill brigade slots)
8xsister repentia
2x10 arco flagelant
repentia superior
10xdominion(4xstorm bolter, banner, cherub, combi plasma)
2x5xseraphim(4xinferno pistol, plasma pistol, power sword)
10xretributor(4xmulti melta, banner, 2xcherub)
2x5xretributor(2xheavy bolter, cherub)
122 models, 6 MD cherubs, 4 extra shot cherubs. Just 102 models cherub's included...Going to take an herculean effort to paint...Celestine and warlord leads MM retributions, melta and flamer BSS squads, dominions, celestians. H2h units try to use terrain(generally lots of LOS blocking available). Rest guard flanks and rears from DS. Seraphims comes turn 2 and 3 for some inferno pistol goodyness.
Gareth_Evans wrote: Did anyone find a use for Holy Trinity? I'm thinking of running Brigade of VH and a different detachment of BR. Thing is with VH brigade having 6 squads of sisters is a lot....and their firepower is a bit meh.
I was thinking of 2 lots of Stormbolter Dominions for Blessed bolts. 2 since I assume the opponent will nuke the Dominions once they know what they can do. But blessed bolts can only be used once per turn. I was thinking of maybe loading up 1 or 2 of the 6 basic VH sister squads with the cheap combi-melta, combi-flamer, stormbolter config.
Trinity gives +1 to wound which is not bad and certainly helps out the BSS squad bolters and flamers. Its just another strat on top of blessed bolts that can be used to kick up damage a gear. I'd take the extra -1 AP on 6 to wound rite as well.
My spontaneous thought is that holy trinity is a trap. It requires squads to be equipped with mixed gear, and get really close and fire weapons at suboptimal targets. I'll try to make some calculations...
As baseline, lets assume one unit of 5 sisters, with 2 stormbolters, in rapid fire range. And then we can see how much they can be improved by gearing for Holy Trinity.
14 shots -> 9,33 hits
Attacking guards: ~6 wounds -> 4 through saves -> 4 dead guards
Attacking primaris: ~4,6 wounds -> 2 through save -> 1 dead primaris
Next case: a unit of five sisters, with two meltaguns and one combi melta attacking a knight:
3 melta shots -> 2 hits -> 1 wound -> 1 through saves -> 1 melta wound roll, (average 3,5 or 4,5 within 6" 4 bolt shots -> 2,67 hits -> 0,44 wounds -> 0,11 through saves
So this unit does an average of 3,6 damage 6-12" away and 4,6 damage at 1-6".
If one of them has a heavy flamer instead, we get a unit that costs the same. Lets assume they use Holy Trinity.
2 melta shots -> 1,33 hits -> 0,89 wounds -> 0,89 through saves -> 0,89 melta wound rolls, (average 3,11 or 4 within 6" 4 bolt shots -> 2,67 hits -> 0,89 wounds -> ~0,3 through saves
3,5 flame hits -> 1,75 wounds -> 0,88 through saves
So an average of 4,3 damage at 6-8" away and 5,1 damage at 1-6"
But outside of 8" they will do:
2 melta shots -> 1,33 hits -> 0,665 wounds -> 0,665 through saves -> 0,65 melta rolls (average 2,3 damage)
4 bolt shots -> 2,67 hits -> 0,44 wounds -> 0,11 through saves
So an average of 2,4 damage.
By gearing for Holy Trinity you gain a small chance to increase damage by paying CPs at close range, and you loose out on damage at medium range.
I'll make one more excercise: 15 sisters with boltguns, one heavy flamer and one meltagun, to maximize damage against primaris marines for Holy Trinity
26 boltgun shots -> 17,3 hits -> 11,5 wounds -> 3,8 through saves -> 1,9 dead primaris
1 melta shot -> 0,67 hits -> 0,56 wounds -> 0,56 through saves -> probably 1 dead primaris
1 heavy flamer -> 3,5 hits -> 2,9 wounds -> 1,45 through saves -> 0,72 dead primaris
Without the strat they will do
26 boltgun shots -> 17,3 hits -> 8,65 wounds -> 2,8 through saves -> 1,4 dead primaris
1 melta shot -> 0,67 hits -> 0,56 wounds -> 0,56 through saves -> probably 1 dead primaris
1 heavy flamer -> 3,5 hits -> 2,3 wounds -> 1,15 through saves -> 0,62 dead primaris
The difference with the strat is about 0,6 dead primaris marines. Not impressive.
I realise that possibly having retributors with heavy flamers, and equipping the superior with a combi melta, that could be a decent use case... because they are already at 12" to shoot.
4 heavy flamers does 14 hits
Attacking primaris marines without Holy Trinity: 9,33 wounds -> 4,67 through saves
and with Holy Trinity: 11,67 wounds -> 5,8 through saves
So difference is again about half a dead primaris marine. Not impressive.
If flaming stuff with T6-9 the strat would add about 50% damage.
Holy trinity really is only decent on retributers with heavy flamers as mellon has said. It's not something that I would ever use consistently but having it in the back pocket just in case isnt bad. However I find retributers to be the 1 squad I cant find a decent place for. They are a good alternative to a lot of stuff but really, I am just not that impressed by them.
Thanks for the reply. I did some playing at one of the math-hammer sites a while back, and it did seem meh. Once thing I tried was to give the superior a plasma, and the other 2 a flamer/combi-melta.
The plasma now double taps and wounds the Primaris on 2s -3AP with 2 shots. I think it actually worked out better, but still not amazing.
My spontaneous thought is that holy trinity is a trap. It requires squads to be equipped with mixed gear, and get really close and fire weapons at suboptimal targets. I'll try to make some calculations...
I agree that this is the case... I've only played a couple of games, but of course we've been messing with Holy Trinity since the Beta. I think it layers too many situational limits onto the unit. Start with a very specific build, suffer the other limitations that come with it, identify the optimal target, get them reliably into pretty short range with all the required bodies intact, and then have that be your best use for the CP in that particular game context. I've tried it on Dominions, Rets with Heavy Flamers, and even 10x Seraphim with mixed loadout. I feel like even when I pull off all the required synergies, the damage bump never feels worthwhile. I would say Melta-Dominion knight-hunters might be a case for it, but I've never tried it.
tneva82 wrote: Having 1 heavy weapon means either sister squad is sitting down or heavy bolter is hitting on 4+.
Well, except for Heavy Flamers anyway. Obviously if you intend to get close, a heavy flamer is not a terrible option for your squad-- certainly better than a normal flamer.
Speaking of not terrible options, I'm pondering best loadouts for celestians that accompany assault-oriented canonesses, like a Beneficence bearer. The additional ablative wounds are nice, but the Celestians also get to reroll ALL to-hit rolls when they're within aura range of a canoness. As far as I can tell this is for any phase, too. So maybe a barebones Celestian squad, but with a superior that has a combiplasma and power maul?
tneva82 wrote: Having 1 heavy weapon means either sister squad is sitting down or heavy bolter is hitting on 4+.
Well, except for Heavy Flamers anyway. Obviously if you intend to get close, a heavy flamer is not a terrible option for your squad-- certainly better than a normal flamer.
Speaking of not terrible options, I'm pondering best loadouts for celestians that accompany assault-oriented canonesses, like a Beneficence bearer. The additional ablative wounds are nice, but the Celestians also get to reroll ALL to-hit rolls when they're within aura range of a canoness. As far as I can tell this is for any phase, too. So maybe a barebones Celestian squad, but with a superior that has a combiplasma and power maul?
True heavy flamer is bit more forgiving though loses ability to advance and grill like with flamer. Big issue is hf price though.
For celestians i'm going with triple meltas to give more at punch. Full rerolls also nice. And yes even in h2h. Thus my superior is also with maul. Even valorous heart nice unit, bloody rose just evil.
I'm giving my Celestians triple-melta too. The stratagem gives reroll to wounds, so I should be able to save my MD for those d6 damage rolls.
What are people equipping their Superiors with for melee? Obviously chainswords are free and a no-brainer, but where and when do you decide to go with a power sword or power maul?
Depends. For Bloody Rose, I'd say mauls and axes everywhere (except Retributors). Punish enemies just that much more for assaulting you, or make your assaults just that much better. For everyone else, chainswords are probably good enough-- but mauls and axes just make the most of Bloody Rose's Order Conviction.
A group of Celestians assaulting with a Canoness w/Beneficence after rapid firing and unleashing their special weapons on something can really mess some gak up, especially if their superior has a maul or axe.
In my 2000 pts VH list I run a 5-man Retributor squad with 4 MM and 2 Arm Cherubs. They ride in a Repressor with a support Canoness (with the WL trait that improves their SoF throw to 5++) and an Imagifier.
The way I’ve used them is shooting out of the Repressor for a turn or two until they can get into a nice spot that gives them cover and can target high value threats. Once they exit the transport they get the aura benefits of re-rolling 1s to hit plus being in cover (2+ save) and ignoring weapons that are AP1 and AP2.
So they get 2+ ignoring AP1 and AP2, 5++ and 6+++, rerolling 1s to hit.
Placement is key as always, and the biggest issue has been keeping out of hth, but usually I’ll charge anything close by with the Repressor to avoid that happening.
Taikishi wrote: Heavy flamer rets in a Repressor. Return of the Easy Bake Oven.
I’ve tried this as well. It’s like an Immolation Flamer with 4d6 autohits and even has 12” range. The cost of the heavy flamers is why I don’t take them, since I already have plenty of anti-infantry in the list.
In the German Dex, Trinity is 1 CP - is it really 2 CP in the English version?
I'll try Dominions with 3 Meltas, 1 Combimelta, 1 Flamer and some Bolter Sisters for Trinity - i guess with the Scout move they have a chance to get in flamer range early enough to use the gem...
Gareth_Evans wrote: Did anyone find a use for Holy Trinity? I'm thinking of running Brigade of VH and a different detachment of BR. Thing is with VH brigade having 6 squads of sisters is a lot....and their firepower is a bit meh.
I was thinking of 2 lots of Stormbolter Dominions for Blessed bolts. 2 since I assume the opponent will nuke the Dominions once they know what they can do. But blessed bolts can only be used once per turn. I was thinking of maybe loading up 1 or 2 of the 6 basic VH sister squads with the cheap combi-melta, combi-flamer, stormbolter config.
Trinity gives +1 to wound which is not bad and certainly helps out the BSS squad bolters and flamers. Its just another strat on top of blessed bolts that can be used to kick up damage a gear. I'd take the extra -1 AP on 6 to wound rite as well.
No because it's bad. It's a trap and is often mathematically very very close to just not running goofy loadouts on your units.
The only unit that can really benefit from it is 10 girl ebonchalice HeavyFlamer retributor squads under the effect of storm of fire. Outside of that, just build a normal squad and use the CP for a reroll. It's pretty much the same thing.
In the German Dex, Trinity is 1 CP - is it really 2 CP in the English version?
I'll try Dominions with 3 Meltas, 1 Combimelta, 1 Flamer and some Bolter Sisters for Trinity - i guess with the Scout move they have a chance to get in flamer range early enough to use the gem...
You have 4 meltas so you're praying you get to shoot at Centurions or better because if you're stuck shooting at T4, your loadout is already fethed thanks to your guns wounding on 2s. I shouldn't need to math it out to show why a +1 to wound flamer is worse than just another meltagun against intercessors.
So let's look at Centurions and rhinos
Centurion vs 5 meltas: (5*.667*.667*.833*3.5)= 6.48 damage
Centurion vs 4 meltas and a combi-flamer (because putting the combi on a melta is stupid vs flamer): (4*.667*.833*.833*3.5)+(3.5*.5*.1667)+(2*.5*.5*.1667)= 6.85. 5.4 without the strat.
So against Centurions you do a significant amount less damage without a stratagem, for the sake of WITH the stratagem doing additional damage than just a smart CP reroll. Or a 4 miracle dice.
Rhino vs 5 Meltas: (5*.667*.667*3.5)= 7.9 damage
Rhino vs Trinity squad: (4*.667*.833*3.5)+(3.5*.5*.333)+(2*.5*.5*.333)= 8.5. 6.7 without the strat.
Basically by building for the strat you're screwing yourself if you're in a situation where you don't want to use the strat AND not getting much additional damage anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
davidgr33n wrote: In my 2000 pts VH list I run a 5-man Retributor squad with 4 MM and 2 Arm Cherubs. They ride in a Repressor with a support Canoness (with the WL trait that improves their SoF throw to 5++) and an Imagifier.
The way I’ve used them is shooting out of the Repressor for a turn or two until they can get into a nice spot that gives them cover and can target high value threats. Once they exit the transport they get the aura benefits of re-rolling 1s to hit plus being in cover (2+ save) and ignoring weapons that are AP1 and AP2.
So they get 2+ ignoring AP1 and AP2, 5++ and 6+++, rerolling 1s to hit.
Placement is key as always, and the biggest issue has been keeping out of hth, but usually I’ll charge anything close by with the Repressor to avoid that happening.
How on earth does a repressor with that many points in it live that long? Even Exorcists shouldn't get more than 2 turns unless you're DECIMATING.
Azuza001 wrote: Holy trinity really is only decent on retributers with heavy flamers as mellon has said. It's not something that I would ever use consistently but having it in the back pocket just in case isnt bad. However I find retributers to be the 1 squad I cant find a decent place for. They are a good alternative to a lot of stuff but really, I am just not that impressed by them.
Thinking about it, an Ebon Chalice Heavy Flamer Retributor unit with Heavy Flamers, 2 Cherubs and a combi-melta canoness for Holy Trinity will downright murder almost anything for 3 CP. 36 guaranteed auto-hit shots with S5 AP-1 and +1 to wound will delete a lot of things that aren't knights (though it would be interesting how many wounds that would do on a knight, if anyone is willing to run the math). And with 126 points the unit is also reasonably cheap considering the benefits, and the thought of just removing an 30 boyz strong mob of Orks with 5 gals with the Sister's coolest weapon is both heartwarming and amusing. Might be worth throwing 1-3 extra bodies on top when even the Superior is worth 25 points though, depending how much space is left in the transport and especially if run as foot-sloggers.
Still really like that Retributors have 12" flamers that are actually good (and with heavy-flamers no less, which are usually bottom-of-the-barrel even among flamers) with plenty of good strategems to support them to boot, makes me think that all flamers should have had that 12" range to begin with, then you would at least see way more of them.
Sim-Life wrote: Presumably there are other targets.present that the opponent shoots.
Ye, I imagine Exorcists are the #1 priority for almost every player's entire AT arsenal, especially considering the threat they pose from turn one and from a much longer range.
I came up with this as an interesting mechanized Sisters force:
Spoiler:
Brigade: Valorous Heart
Canoness: Power Sword, Plasma Pistol, Warlord (Beacon of Faith)
Celestine
Missionary
2x 5 Battle Sisters: 2x Meltagun, Combi-melta, Cherub, Simulacrum
4x 5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
Hospitaller
Imagifier: Heroine in the Making (Indomitable Belief), Book of St. Lucius
Imagifier
9 Arco-flagellants
5 Dominions: 4x Storm Bolter
2x 5 Seraphim: 4x Inferno Pistol
3x Exorcist
2x Repressor: 2x Heavy Flamer
2x Sororitas Rhino
1996 points
Melta Sisters go in the Repressors who move up along with the two Rhinos (one has the Missionary and Arcos, other has Dominions) and Celestine. The tooled-up Imagifier and the Hospitaller ride in one of the vehicles as well. Canoness stays back to buff the Exorcists with her aura, along with the other Imagifier. The Seraphim drop on different turns to use their strat for both units and add a little bit of anti-tank.
Basically I want to have some decent backfield objective-holding stuff as well as plenty of things to move up and put pressure on the opponent and confuse target priority (hence 7 vehicles in the list). I should have a decent number of MIracle dice to use to get good damage on the meltas/Exorcists. Once some of the transports either go down or get close to the opponent, that's when the Imagifier, Hospitaller, and Celestine can go to work keeping some of those squads alive a little longer or at least forcing the opponent to focus them down. Not sure how well this will work in practice but then that's why I'm asking, before I commit actual money to acquiring these models (already got a line on the Repressors).
In the German Dex, Trinity is 1 CP - is it really 2 CP in the English version?
I'll try Dominions with 3 Meltas, 1 Combimelta, 1 Flamer and some Bolter Sisters for Trinity - i guess with the Scout move they have a chance to get in flamer range early enough to use the gem...
You have 4 meltas so you're praying you get to shoot at Centurions or better because if you're stuck shooting at T4, your loadout is already fethed thanks to your guns wounding on 2s. I shouldn't need to math it out to show why a +1 to wound flamer is worse than just another meltagun against intercessors.
So let's look at Centurions and rhinos
Centurion vs 5 meltas: (5*.667*.667*.833*3.5)= 6.48 damage
Centurion vs 4 meltas and a combi-flamer (because putting the combi on a melta is stupid vs flamer): (4*.667*.833*.833*3.5)+(3.5*.5*.1667)+(2*.5*.5*.1667)= 6.85. 5.4 without the strat.
So against Centurions you do a significant amount less damage without a stratagem, for the sake of WITH the stratagem doing additional damage than just a smart CP reroll. Or a 4 miracle dice.
Rhino vs 5 Meltas: (5*.667*.667*3.5)= 7.9 damage
Rhino vs Trinity squad: (4*.667*.833*3.5)+(3.5*.5*.333)+(2*.5*.5*.333)= 8.5. 6.7 without the strat.
Basically by building for the strat you're screwing yourself if you're in a situation where you don't want to use the strat AND not getting much additional damage anyway.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
davidgr33n wrote: In my 2000 pts VH list I run a 5-man Retributor squad with 4 MM and 2 Arm Cherubs. They ride in a Repressor with a support Canoness (with the WL trait that improves their SoF throw to 5++) and an Imagifier.
The way I’ve used them is shooting out of the Repressor for a turn or two until they can get into a nice spot that gives them cover and can target high value threats. Once they exit the transport they get the aura benefits of re-rolling 1s to hit plus being in cover (2+ save) and ignoring weapons that are AP1 and AP2.
So they get 2+ ignoring AP1 and AP2, 5++ and 6+++, rerolling 1s to hit.
Placement is key as always, and the biggest issue has been keeping out of hth, but usually I’ll charge anything close by with the Repressor to avoid that happening.
How on earth does a repressor with that many points in it live that long? Even Exorcists shouldn't get more than 2 turns unless you're DECIMATING.
Against most opponents that's a suicide box.
Well, I have 3 anti-tank Exorcists and 5 Repressors all carrying 8 to 10 scary sisters with some melta. If they want to focus on that transport there’s plenty more. I was just making the case for MM Rets and how I use them.
Spoletta wrote: I want to equip my superiors with mails, but they don't come in the box. Any idea where to get some? Inferno pistols too.
Mails? Inferno Pistols are easy: Take a bolt pistol, saw off the magazine and muzzle, glue on head/muzzle from a meltagun (you got plenty of those if you get even only one regular Battle Sisters Squad box). It's literally what everyone has done with their Army Box Seraphim.
If you want to get more outlandish you could also take a plasma pistol and glue a melta muzzle in front and paint the plasma coils orange. It's not like you actually want to use Plasma Pistols on anything but Seraphim Superiors where I consider them to be must take (well, a case can be made for a canoness but there are better choices, especially that tasty relic bolt pistol) anyway, so you'll have the bits.
@Tactics: Just having checked the Celestians again, I really, REALLY like them. Sure, you can't build a list around them, but whenever you got 3 or 6 BSS already and think "hm, I want another infantry squad" there is very little reason not to take them. Like seriously, for ONE point they get +1A, +1Ld, Re-rolls for ANY rolls to hit with an extremely easy to achieve trigger and which also synergizes really well with their extra attacks (11 S3 attacks become quite deadly when they get pushed to S4 by a saintly Imagifier and get to re-roll their 3+ to hit). And to boot they get the body guard rule when someone tries to murderize your warlord canoness or Imagifier with snipers. 5 of them with 2 Storm Bolters are 54 points, which is really tasty.
Can anyone actually good at numbers run the math on them vs Dominions with 4xSB pwetty please ? Sure, Dominions got Blessed Bolts, but only one squad benefits from it, so I would love to see if Celestians are the better pick for multiple more elite servo sisters.
I’ve been a sisters player for over 15 years and have my army painted in traditional Bloody Rose scheme. I have really liked the Valorous Heart back story and their Convictions.
In order to play VH do I need to repaint them or can I make up a storyline to lineup the color scheme with VH?
Unless you happen to be at a WHW Tournament, you don't need to repaint your army. That is the only place I have heard of where you have to play your army the way it is painted.
@Tactics: Just having checked the Celestians again, I really, REALLY like them. Sure, you can't build a list around them, but whenever you got 3 or 6 BSS already and think "hm, I want another infantry squad" there is very little reason not to take them. Like seriously, for ONE point they get +1A, +1Ld, Re-rolls for ANY rolls to hit with an extremely easy to achieve trigger and which also synergizes really well with their extra attacks (11 S3 attacks become quite deadly when they get pushed to S4 by a saintly Imagifier and get to re-roll their 3+ to hit). And to boot they get the body guard rule when someone tries to murderize your warlord canoness or Imagifier with snipers. 5 of them with 2 Storm Bolters are 54 points, which is really tasty.
Can anyone actually good at numbers run the math on them vs Dominions with 4xSB pwetty please ? Sure, Dominions got Blessed Bolts, but only one squad benefits from it, so I would love to see if Celestians are the better pick for multiple more elite servo sisters.
Keeping things even with a Canoness aura and in double-tap range: 5 Doms with 4 SBs and 1 Bolter (re-rolling failed to-hit rolls of 1) would get 14 hits; 5 Celestians with 2 SBs and 3 Bolters (re-rolling all failed to-hits) would get about 12 hits on average (exact number is 12.444). So not quite as effective in shooting per point, but Celestians do have other benefits as you stated.
Just for lols-
Dominions with 4 SBs pay 4.14 pts per hit, while Celestians with 2 SBs pay 4.34 pts per hit.
Spoletta wrote: I want to equip my superiors with mails, but they don't come in the box. Any idea where to get some? Inferno pistols too.
Mails? Inferno Pistols are easy: Take a bolt pistol, saw off the magazine and muzzle, glue on head/muzzle from a meltagun (you got plenty of those if you get even only one regular Battle Sisters Squad box). It's literally what everyone has done with their Army Box Seraphim.
If you want to get more outlandish you could also take a plasma pistol and glue a melta muzzle in front and paint the plasma coils orange. It's not like you actually want to use Plasma Pistols on anything but Seraphim Superiors where I consider them to be must take (well, a case can be made for a canoness but there are better choices, especially that tasty relic bolt pistol) anyway, so you'll have the bits.
@Tactics: Just having checked the Celestians again, I really, REALLY like them. Sure, you can't build a list around them, but whenever you got 3 or 6 BSS already and think "hm, I want another infantry squad" there is very little reason not to take them. Like seriously, for ONE point they get +1A, +1Ld, Re-rolls for ANY rolls to hit with an extremely easy to achieve trigger and which also synergizes really well with their extra attacks (11 S3 attacks become quite deadly when they get pushed to S4 by a saintly Imagifier and get to re-roll their 3+ to hit). And to boot they get the body guard rule when someone tries to murderize your warlord canoness or Imagifier with snipers. 5 of them with 2 Storm Bolters are 54 points, which is really tasty.
Can anyone actually good at numbers run the math on them vs Dominions with 4xSB pwetty please ? Sure, Dominions got Blessed Bolts, but only one squad benefits from it, so I would love to see if Celestians are the better pick for multiple more elite servo sisters.
Sorry, I meant maces, but for some reason it gets auto corrected.
Thanks for the tip on inferno pistols, that's really handy. I'm putting them on quite a lot of models.
Are we loving inferno pistols on multiple Sister Superiors? I'll leave a few with stock boltguns for backline security detail, but for my forward elements I might spread a few around. I've gotten good use out of the "thermal injector pistol" from The Reliquary on Shapeways. I have 4 stormbolters to dump, and those empty hands need something. Also, who's got a favorite third party chainsword that scales properly with our tiny feminine hands?
Thinking about it, an Ebon Chalice Heavy Flamer Retributor unit with Heavy Flamers, 2 Cherubs and a combi-melta canoness for Holy Trinity will downright murder almost anything for 3 CP. 36 guaranteed auto-hit shots with S5 AP-1 and +1 to wound will delete a lot of things that aren't knights (though it would be interesting how many wounds that would do on a knight, if anyone is willing to run the math). .
36 hits, wound on 4+, save on same, easy. 9 wounds.
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MacPhail wrote: Are we loving inferno pistols on multiple Sister Superiors? I'll leave a few with stock boltguns for backline security detail, but for my forward elements I might spread a few around. I've gotten good use out of the "thermal injector pistol" from The Reliquary on Shapeways. I have 4 stormbolters to dump, and those empty hands need something. Also, who's got a favorite third party chainsword that scales properly with our tiny feminine hands?
I went with combi meltas. For one available and range is better. Makes charging squads lot riskier for enemy with anything with 3-4 wounds if i have 6 md as i can get quaranteed hit. Characters with 5-6 wounds have to keep in mind if i hit(19% odds near canoness) i have quaranteed kill if i get past save. Pistol you are less likely be able to overwatch as enemy can start charge 6.1" away.
I've got a few games in my pocket now [Ha. Having pockets. That's a good one. ], running a moderate selection of the stuff available:
The loss of toughness & wounds for the penitent engine is definitely felt, these things aren't dreadnoughts anymore. That said, they are very cheap and definitely lethal for their cost with the flails. I've tried out both Mortifiers [Anchorite] & Pengines, and I would say that currently, I like the classic random guy from the street more than the captured Chaos Battle Sister bolted to the crucifix-o-tron. Pengines hit better than the Mortifiers, and are tougher than base Mortifiers but more fragile than the Anchorite. All are cheap as hell, but a Mortifier with HB's is the same as a Pengine with mandatory Heavy Flamers, so you can't save anything by choosing the Mortifier and sticking with cheaper weapons.
I may be in the minority, but I vastly preferred the old Exorcist to the new one. I've tried out 2 AT & 1 Conflagration Rockets, 2 AT, and 3 AT in different lists. The conflagration rockets do work, but I'm not sold on them over the classic tank destroyer Exorcist role, especially since I highly prize the medium-range AT capability of the Exorcist and feel the opportunity cost of switching one. Onto the AT launcher weapon, it feels much less capable for it's cost, and since it's 3 dice rolled instead of 1, if I'm not prescient enough to know which of the three to hit with Devastating Refrain, one of the launchers rolling poorly is much harder to fix. I never had problems with 3 1d6 launchers, since a CP could fix that die roll when one went wrong and they were cheap, but I've mad major issues with simply not feeling like they're lifting as much weight as they were. In addition, all that extra cost is choking, since I can't have as many units and other upgrades.
Seraphim are neat. I still like them with melta pistols, either in big squads or in small squads. Being capped to 4++ instead of 3++ is kind of sad though. I've used them in deep strike now, since their stratagem works on Inferno Pistols now, but just flying up the board is a solid option. I think they're definitely better than and will pick them first over....
Dominions, which I do not like anymore. Dominions were, in my opinion, one of the signature units of Sisters as fast Mech Infantry, and being unable to scout [or outflank, how much fun it was to outflank a tank full of meltaguns with multimeltas behind a Knight right up close...] their tanks has really just made them expensive Battle Sisters. Melta Doms are out of my lists now, in favor of Seraphim. SB doms might come back for Blessed Bolts, but they'll need padding to stay alive.
Zephyrim are something that I just haven't figured out. I'd be happy with Power Axes on them, but Power Swords just doesn't feel worthwhile.
Repentia are a unit that has consistently been making me happy. Hit things they die, up to and including Imperial Knights. Woo. The only catch is not getting killed by overwatch since they're super fragile. I'm debating also leaving behind the Mistress, since they get their re-rolls natively now and the re-roll to wound isn't as valuable. I'll come back to the overwatch problem.
Canonesses are killer, though not having jetpacks is still a sad. I've been running 1 with Beneficence most of the time and 1 to babysit the Exorcists at least. I've run my third with varying loadouts and relics and warlord traits for different effects, and I've been pretty happy with all of them, though Admonition+Blazing Ire is redundant with Benificence+Righteous Rage. I did like the Valorous Heart one with the Casket of Peanance and Shield of Faith boositng, and I also like the Iron Surplice of Saint Istaela, though part of that latter one is just because the relic is cool sounding and having a tough character isn't really a super awesome relic useage.
Imagifiers are awesome. I need more.
Battle Sister Squads I've been toying around with. I've run them barebones for efficiency, and I've run them with 2x Melta and 2x Storm Bolter. I've use one section with 2x Flamer. I think that right now BSS w/ 2x Melta is definitely doing better for me than Doms with 4x Melta. BSS with 2x Storm Bolters were basically the same as barebones. 2x Flamer does actually irritate my enemy, but seems niche to armies that might be threatened by flamers. Advancing a lot is something I've been doing with both the flamer and melta units, so I haven't used Argent Shroud, but I'm considering it.
Immolators are Immolators. I forget they have a heavy bolter to fire, and have tried using them for the BSS a few times, but have come to the conclusion that BSS should walk and Immolators are basically guns tanks. I use Rhinos for carrying stuff. Given that they've found more use to me as roving gun tanks, going for the flame gun is something I'd probably prefer, but I'm also just not bringing them. I've considered going 1 Rhino + 1 Immolator, but I'm not comfortable putting characters in the Immolator without padding infantry for when it blows up.
That covers my take on units, now onto mechanics:
Miracle Dice are a cool concept and I like them in theory, but they're not useful and I've accumulated a bunch of them without using them each game. I'd like them more if I could replace after the roll, which would make them valuable for saving throws, or replace multiple rolls per phase with them. As is, with 1 roll per phase and doing so pre-emptively, I've mostly hoarded them and used them for resurrecting canonesses if I have CP left.
The Sacred Rites are also in the category of "cool in theory, but at the bat not really doing work". I've used Death to the False Everything in the mono lists I've used. That said, with the exception of the +3 Deny the Witch one, I'm not sold on them being more effective than a Basilisk or Thunderfire gun knocking down overwatch and having cheap Guardsmen for CP or Space Marines for board control. At the end of the day, having other IMPERIAL troops in your army is to me worth more than exploding 6's in melee or whatever other Rites there are.
I've used Bloody Rose and Valorous Heart doctrines. Though my models are painted silver, red, and white, I've been Bloody Rose all through the beta codex and was known by my friends for being assault-happy before that was a thing so continuing to use Bloody Rose was the obvious default choice for me. I don't like +1AP as much as +1S, that's the short, but I do like the +1 to wound in melee stratagem and really, really like Beneficence. I used Valorous Heart against a Necron player and felt really good too, especially with my stickbearer. I'm looking forward to trying to use Valorous Heart more against Space Marines maybe. I think Valorous Heart is probably the best Order, but I'm considering Argent Shroud since I've been doing so much Advancing.
The lists I've used have been 2 Battalions Mono, 2 Battalions + 1 IG Battalion, and 1 Brigade + 1 IG Battalion.
Exorcist got 71% boost in firepower basically. 6 shots vs 3.5. 120 pts before? 41% price increase. So math says they got more point efficient, not less.
tneva82 wrote: Exorcist got 71% boost in firepower basically. 6 shots vs 3.5. 120 pts before? 41% price increase. So math says they got more point efficient, not less.
There's also resilience and general disposability to consider. I expect more out of a 170 point tank, and it hurts more when it dies. Also, 1d6 is a pretty easy to fix roll when it does do poorly, but 3d3 is basically impossible to re mediate a bad result for.
There's an argument that at it's worst it's still doing at the average level of the old one, but at it's worst it's doing a performance fit for a 125 point tank and not a 170 point one.
With the 1d6 one, you can roll through them and just re-roll the first one to do poorly. With 3d3, you're really down to only being able to fix it by pre-emptively using Devastating Refrain, and you can't forsee which one isn't going to work for you to pop it on.
I have been running my lists with 1 Geminae Superia but not Celestine. Anyone else doing this?
To me there are several benefits: I run a brigade so 20 points to fill an Elite slot is nice (if run with Celestine it won’t use the slot); it’s got the CHARACTER keyword with 2W, 3A using a power sword, and 12” movement - great for snatching an objective or just being a nuisance; and best of all, when she dies she gives up a MD.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: That covers my take on units, now onto mechanics:
Miracle Dice are a cool concept and I like them in theory, but they're not useful and I've accumulated a bunch of them without using them each game. I'd like them more if I could replace after the roll, which would make them valuable for saving throws, or replace multiple rolls per phase with them. As is, with 1 roll per phase and doing so pre-emptively, I've mostly hoarded them and used them for resurrecting canonesses if I have CP left.
I think the issue with Miracle Dice is you have to get into a different mindset than you are used to using. Think of it as a preemptive Command Re-roll. Ask yourself the question: "Is there a roll I really don't want to fail this phase?"
If there is, use the lowest necessary Miracle Dice when you make that roll and just succeed. Need at least a X on a Advance or Charge? Use an appropriate Miracle Dice and get it. Can't fail too many of a small number of saves, reduce the variables by passing one via Miracle Dice. Don't want that single Meltagun or Inferno Pistol to miss or fail to wound, then use a 3 or 4 Miracle Dice (and maybe toss 2 CP to make it both auto-hit and auto-wound).
If you end the game with a lot of Miracle Dice, either you had an easy or you failed to utilize resources you had. I assume you don't allow yourself to end a game with lost of CP. Take the same amount of care to ensure the only Miracle Dice you end the game with are the ones you gained late in the game (or 1 and 2's that can't to anything useful because you aren't making Morale rolls).
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: I've got a few games in my pocket now [Ha. Having pockets. That's a good one. ], running a moderate selection of the stuff available:
Spoiler:
The loss of toughness & wounds for the penitent engine is definitely felt, these things aren't dreadnoughts anymore. That said, they are very cheap and definitely lethal for their cost with the flails. I've tried out both Mortifiers [Anchorite] & Pengines, and I would say that currently, I like the classic random guy from the street more than the captured Chaos Battle Sister bolted to the crucifix-o-tron. Pengines hit better than the Mortifiers, and are tougher than base Mortifiers but more fragile than the Anchorite. All are cheap as hell, but a Mortifier with HB's is the same as a Pengine with mandatory Heavy Flamers, so you can't save anything by choosing the Mortifier and sticking with cheaper weapons.
I may be in the minority, but I vastly preferred the old Exorcist to the new one. I've tried out 2 AT & 1 Conflagration Rockets, 2 AT, and 3 AT in different lists. The conflagration rockets do work, but I'm not sold on them over the classic tank destroyer Exorcist role, especially since I highly prize the medium-range AT capability of the Exorcist and feel the opportunity cost of switching one. Onto the AT launcher weapon, it feels much less capable for it's cost, and since it's 3 dice rolled instead of 1, if I'm not prescient enough to know which of the three to hit with Devastating Refrain, one of the launchers rolling poorly is much harder to fix. I never had problems with 3 1d6 launchers, since a CP could fix that die roll when one went wrong and they were cheap, but I've mad major issues with simply not feeling like they're lifting as much weight as they were. In addition, all that extra cost is choking, since I can't have as many units and other upgrades.
Seraphim are neat. I still like them with melta pistols, either in big squads or in small squads. Being capped to 4++ instead of 3++ is kind of sad though. I've used them in deep strike now, since their stratagem works on Inferno Pistols now, but just flying up the board is a solid option. I think they're definitely better than and will pick them first over....
Dominions, which I do not like anymore. Dominions were, in my opinion, one of the signature units of Sisters as fast Mech Infantry, and being unable to scout [or outflank, how much fun it was to outflank a tank full of meltaguns with multimeltas behind a Knight right up close...] their tanks has really just made them expensive Battle Sisters. Melta Doms are out of my lists now, in favor of Seraphim. SB doms might come back for Blessed Bolts, but they'll need padding to stay alive.
Zephyrim are something that I just haven't figured out. I'd be happy with Power Axes on them, but Power Swords just doesn't feel worthwhile.
Repentia are a unit that has consistently been making me happy. Hit things they die, up to and including Imperial Knights. Woo. The only catch is not getting killed by overwatch since they're super fragile. I'm debating also leaving behind the Mistress, since they get their re-rolls natively now and the re-roll to wound isn't as valuable. I'll come back to the overwatch problem.
Canonesses are killer, though not having jetpacks is still a sad. I've been running 1 with Beneficence most of the time and 1 to babysit the Exorcists at least. I've run my third with varying loadouts and relics and warlord traits for different effects, and I've been pretty happy with all of them, though Admonition+Blazing Ire is redundant with Benificence+Righteous Rage. I did like the Valorous Heart one with the Casket of Peanance and Shield of Faith boositng, and I also like the Iron Surplice of Saint Istaela, though part of that latter one is just because the relic is cool sounding and having a tough character isn't really a super awesome relic useage.
Imagifiers are awesome. I need more.
Battle Sister Squads I've been toying around with. I've run them barebones for efficiency, and I've run them with 2x Melta and 2x Storm Bolter. I've use one section with 2x Flamer. I think that right now BSS w/ 2x Melta is definitely doing better for me than Doms with 4x Melta. BSS with 2x Storm Bolters were basically the same as barebones. 2x Flamer does actually irritate my enemy, but seems niche to armies that might be threatened by flamers. Advancing a lot is something I've been doing with both the flamer and melta units, so I haven't used Argent Shroud, but I'm considering it.
Immolators are Immolators. I forget they have a heavy bolter to fire, and have tried using them for the BSS a few times, but have come to the conclusion that BSS should walk and Immolators are basically guns tanks. I use Rhinos for carrying stuff. Given that they've found more use to me as roving gun tanks, going for the flame gun is something I'd probably prefer, but I'm also just not bringing them. I've considered going 1 Rhino + 1 Immolator, but I'm not comfortable putting characters in the Immolator without padding infantry for when it blows up.
That covers my take on units, now onto mechanics:
Miracle Dice are a cool concept and I like them in theory, but they're not useful and I've accumulated a bunch of them without using them each game. I'd like them more if I could replace after the roll, which would make them valuable for saving throws, or replace multiple rolls per phase with them. As is, with 1 roll per phase and doing so pre-emptively, I've mostly hoarded them and used them for resurrecting canonesses if I have CP left.
The Sacred Rites are also in the category of "cool in theory, but at the bat not really doing work". I've used Death to the False Everything in the mono lists I've used. That said, with the exception of the +3 Deny the Witch one, I'm not sold on them being more effective than a Basilisk or Thunderfire gun knocking down overwatch and having cheap Guardsmen for CP or Space Marines for board control. At the end of the day, having other IMPERIAL troops in your army is to me worth more than exploding 6's in melee or whatever other Rites there are.
I've used Bloody Rose and Valorous Heart doctrines. Though my models are painted silver, red, and white, I've been Bloody Rose all through the beta codex and was known by my friends for being assault-happy before that was a thing so continuing to use Bloody Rose was the obvious default choice for me. I don't like +1AP as much as +1S, that's the short, but I do like the +1 to wound in melee stratagem and really, really like Beneficence. I used Valorous Heart against a Necron player and felt really good too, especially with my stickbearer. I'm looking forward to trying to use Valorous Heart more against Space Marines maybe. I think Valorous Heart is probably the best Order, but I'm considering Argent Shroud since I've been doing so much Advancing.
The lists I've used have been 2 Battalions Mono, 2 Battalions + 1 IG Battalion, and 1 Brigade + 1 IG Battalion.
Thanks for the write up. Very informative!
About Zephyrim. I took 7 of them to a tournament this weekend. Given the right target they were awesome, that seems to mean T5 or less that relies on armour saves to stay alive, or anything with T3. If they could not find that kind of target they were good looking but a bit meh. They are imho a better companion for Celestine than the Geminae. That said I'm not sure if they will be a permanent part of my tournament army.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: There's also resilience and general disposability to consider. I expect more out of a 170 point tank, and it hurts more when it dies. Also, 1d6 is a pretty easy to fix roll when it does do poorly, but 3d3 is basically impossible to re mediate a bad result for.
Even the bad roll is 3x of 1d6's bad roll and happens almost as often as double 1 happens. In fact you have more chance of getting 1 or 2 shots with 1d6 rerolled than 3d3 getting 3 shots.
There's an argument that at it's worst it's still doing at the average level of the old one, but at it's worst it's doing a performance fit for a 125 point tank and not a 170 point one.
It's doing 71% more damage at 41% extra price with more reliability, less CP burnage and 50% higher max outout.
With the 1d6 one, you can roll through them and just re-roll the first one to do poorly. With 3d3, you're really down to only being able to fix it by pre-emptively using Devastating Refrain, and you can't forsee which one isn't going to work for you to pop it on.
Even with reroll you are doing less shots average than with 3d3. You average about FOUR shots with reroll. And you burn CP. And you could still roll badly(higher chance than 3d3 rolling 3 shots...). And works only on one tank. Rolling low shots with 2 tanks out of 3 isn't anything new. I do that periodically with doomsday arks and then you have zero options short of cheating.
If there is, use the lowest necessary Miracle Dice when you make that roll and just succeed. Need at least a X on a Advance or Charge? Use an appropriate Miracle Dice and get it. Can't fail too many of a small number of saves, reduce the variables by passing one via Miracle Dice. Don't want that single Meltagun or Inferno Pistol to miss or fail to wound, then use a 3 or 4 Miracle Dice (and maybe toss 2 CP to make it both auto-hit and auto-wound).
This. don't focus on those 6 damage rolls. Meltagun vs vehicle is often 4+ to wound. Good spot for those 4's to use. Your canoness takes 4 wounds? with 2 wounds left? Reduce variance and use that 2 to pass your 2+(if you have the relic) save for one. It's not just about hail mary passes but also reducing variance.
Also look out for chances where FAILING can be tactically good Says guy who should have ensured he fails inv save vs lascannon to kill of canoness for d3 vp...stupid me
tneva82 wrote: Exorcist got 71% boost in firepower basically. 6 shots vs 3.5. 120 pts before? 41% price increase. So math says they got more point efficient, not less.
There's also resilience and general disposability to consider. I expect more out of a 170 point tank, and it hurts more when it dies. Also, 1d6 is a pretty easy to fix roll when it does do poorly, but 3d3 is basically impossible to re mediate a bad result for.
There's an argument that at it's worst it's still doing at the average level of the old one, but at it's worst it's doing a performance fit for a 125 point tank and not a 170 point one.
With the 1d6 one, you can roll through them and just re-roll the first one to do poorly. With 3d3, you're really down to only being able to fix it by pre-emptively using Devastating Refrain, and you can't forsee which one isn't going to work for you to pop it on.
I actually think the Command Russ is the best comparison for the current Exorcist. Where as I struggled to convince my opponents to shoot my Beta Exorcist...
I also feel that without Blind Faith, Devastating Refrain is a trap
Lammia wrote: I actually think the Command Russ is the best comparison for the current Exorcist. Where as I struggled to convince my opponents to shoot my Beta Exorcist...
I also feel that without Blind Faith, Devastating Refrain is a trap
So 2d6 S8 -2 Dd3 rerolling 1's vs 3d3 S8 -3 Dd6. Plus 6++, acts of faith. I know which one I take. And it's not male one.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: That covers my take on units, now onto mechanics:
Miracle Dice are a cool concept and I like them in theory, but they're not useful and I've accumulated a bunch of them without using them each game. I'd like them more if I could replace after the roll, which would make them valuable for saving throws, or replace multiple rolls per phase with them. As is, with 1 roll per phase and doing so pre-emptively, I've mostly hoarded them and used them for resurrecting canonesses if I have CP left.
I think the issue with Miracle Dice is you have to get into a different mindset than you are used to using. Think of it as a preemptive Command Re-roll. Ask yourself the question: "Is there a roll I really don't want to fail this phase?"
If there is, use the lowest necessary Miracle Dice when you make that roll and just succeed. Need at least a X on a Advance or Charge? Use an appropriate Miracle Dice and get it. Can't fail too many of a small number of saves, reduce the variables by passing one via Miracle Dice. Don't want that single Meltagun or Inferno Pistol to miss or fail to wound, then use a 3 or 4 Miracle Dice (and maybe toss 2 CP to make it both auto-hit and auto-wound).
If you end the game with a lot of Miracle Dice, either you had an easy or you failed to utilize resources you had. I assume you don't allow yourself to end a game with lost of CP. Take the same amount of care to ensure the only Miracle Dice you end the game with are the ones you gained late in the game (or 1 and 2's that can't to anything useful because you aren't making Morale rolls).
I usually struggle to find enough single rolls I care enough about to to use all my MD...
I've seen quite a few posts saying the LE Boxed Set Cannoness has an illegal loadout. She has a boltgun, power sword and Rod of Office. That loadout is covered in the codex so not sure how she's illegally equipped.
The boltgun might not be modeled on (haven't seen the rear of the model) so maybe THAT'S what people are talking about?
I've seen quite a few posts saying the LE Boxed Set Cannoness has an illegal loadout. She has a boltgun, power sword and Rod of Office. That loadout is covered in the codex so not sure how she's illegally equipped.
The boltgun might not be modeled on (haven't seen the rear of the model) so maybe THAT'S what people are talking about?
I've seen quite a few posts saying the LE Boxed Set Cannoness has an illegal loadout. She has a boltgun, power sword and Rod of Office. That loadout is covered in the codex so not sure how she's illegally equipped.
The boltgun might not be modeled on (haven't seen the rear of the model) so maybe THAT'S what people are talking about?
Check the model. There's no boltgun in sight. That's illegality #1. For most tournaments WYSIWYG means upgrades(like the boltgun here) needs to be shown.
What's worse there's clearly a ranged gun model posses. And it's not boltgun. It's plasma pistol. And there's no way to get one for rod. If you switch bolt pistol&chainsword for bolt gun and power sword plus rod you don't have bolt pistol to replace to plasma pistol. And if you replace bolt pistol with plasma pistol you don't have bolt pistol and chainsword to replace to boltgu, power sword and rod.
Tiny annoyance for now. Hopefully FAQ fixes without fix being loadout becomes legends option.
Hmm, I'll take peeps words for it. I don't own the model just going by unboxing photos of painted model and sprue. Must be hidden in the folds of robe or something.
jivardi wrote: Hmm, I'll take peeps words for it. I don't own the model just going by unboxing photos of painted model and sprue. Must be hidden in the folds of robe or something.
Spoiler:
Left side, around half way of sword. See the barrel? That's the plasma pistol. More clearer from other angles.
Yes not that easy to see. Bigger issue for wysiwyg requirements is clear lack of bolter.
Lammia wrote: I usually struggle to find enough single rolls I care enough about to to use all my MD...
Presumably you don't say single "drat" when you fail a roll then during game
Can't use MD on number of shots.
I personally never have enough miracle dice. I use the Simulacrum a lot - there's always something I want to do with those squads - always something that benefits my game plan that guaranteeing is far more valuable to me than a chance that it fails. I'll start using Cherubs on all BSS squads once I add a Triumph to the back field to help add more Acts of Faith to the Exorcists - I'll want the early advance rolls and 4+ melta hits from the BSS so without the Cherubs I would be totally lacking the dice needed early game.
I really kind of want to try out Ebon Chalice or Sacred Rose given how much I love this mechanic lol
Having played Ebon Chalice I agree that having lots of dice can be great with their ability to toss two dice and make one of them a 6. Need a long charge but only have 6,2,1? Now it's a 12! Some beatstick character is charging your melta sisters? Toss that 3 and 4 for an Overwatching 6 and make them save or die.
mrwhoop wrote: Having played Ebon Chalice I agree that having lots of dice can be great with their ability to toss two dice and make one of them a 6. Need a long charge but only have 6,2,1? Now it's a 12! Some beatstick character is charging your melta sisters? Toss that 3 and 4 for an Overwatching 6 and make them save or die.
Regarding that character been thinking if you have meltagun and some 5-6 wound character comes in wonder would using MD to quarantee hit or quarantee death if gets past save be worth more?
Hitting is the least likely thing but then you still need to wound, get past 4++ or 3++ and then roll 5 or 6. And often if you don't kill it's not doing much of difference.
Alternative is fish for that 6 and if you get past save make him go splat.
Average damage wise 6 for to hit is better but is 3 or 4 wounds worth it especially as you aren't quaranteed to even get past inv save?
Of course if you have banner in the unit and sufficient MD dices(4+ebon chalice or 6+5 or 6 for others) and you can auto hit and autosplat if wound and past save
4 wound characters it's easier as you have 75% chance of splatting with 2d6 discard one plus command rerolls. It's 5 wound(55%) and 6 wound(30%) where chance of getting enough wounds gets tricky.
Of course I rarely get to overwatch character anyway as they charge some chaff first in anyway :( Presumably even more so vs sisters as your MD's are public information.
Lammia wrote: I usually struggle to find enough single rolls I care enough about to to use all my MD...
Presumably you don't say single "drat" when you fail a roll then during game
Can't use MD on number of shots.
I personally never have enough miracle dice. I use the Simulacrum a lot - there's always something I want to do with those squads - always something that benefits my game plan that guaranteeing is far more valuable to me than a chance that it fails. I'll start using Cherubs on all BSS squads once I add a Triumph to the back field to help add more Acts of Faith to the Exorcists - I'll want the early advance rolls and 4+ melta hits from the BSS so without the Cherubs I would be totally lacking the dice needed early game.
I really kind of want to try out Ebon Chalice or Sacred Rose given how much I love this mechanic lol
I mean, I could definitely use more at the start 2 Dice doesn't go far enough T1. But as the game continues I almost start to hope for 3 ones to throw away on resurrecting a character. By T4 I have more than I can use.
I mean, I've gotten good use out of them. (I've finished off an Inquisitor with an Immolator in melee once. (Probably not worth the 2CP I spent on it but w/e)) There's just nothing beyond 12 inch charges, 4++ saves on a Beatstick Cannoness and Exos that feel like they reward me for the use of the resource.
If you have resources left in abundance you aren't making use of them. You fixate just on the extreme passes. 12" in charges? I use them for 7" charges. For 3+/4+(particularly 4+) to wound rolls. I use to ensure there's no chance of dying with my 3 3+ saves with 3w left on character by passing one wound. Never failed 4+ to wound with meltagun? Never failed 2+ save roll? I guess you go "okay didnt' matter" when you fail your your 2+ save roll. Or that 7" charge failed? Who cares. You don't care about that charge right?
tneva82 wrote: If you have resources left in abundance you aren't making use of them. You fixate just on the extreme passes. 12" in charges? I use them for 7" charges. For 3+/4+(particularly 4+) to wound rolls. I use to ensure there's no chance of dying with my 3 3+ saves with 3w left on character by passing one wound. Never failed 4+ to wound with meltagun? Never failed 2+ save roll? I guess you go "okay didnt' matter" when you fail your your 2+ save roll. Or that 7" charge failed? Who cares. You don't care about that charge right?
I actually don't think I've rolled a 7 inch charge... they're traditionally > 9 or < 3 inches.
A single Meltagun shot's not something I'm inclined to use it on over an Exocist. Perhaps later in the game, but even then it's not game changing.
Saves are definitely a top use, but a 4+ dice to save a 9 point model early game is a waste, and volume of fire late game usually makes 1 save insignificant or is a 4++
tneva82 wrote: If you have resources left in abundance you aren't making use of them. You fixate just on the extreme passes. 12" in charges? I use them for 7" charges. For 3+/4+(particularly 4+) to wound rolls. I use to ensure there's no chance of dying with my 3 3+ saves with 3w left on character by passing one wound. Never failed 4+ to wound with meltagun? Never failed 2+ save roll? I guess you go "okay didnt' matter" when you fail your your 2+ save roll. Or that 7" charge failed? Who cares. You don't care about that charge right?
I actually don't think I've rolled a 7 inch charge... they're traditionally > 9 or < 3 inches.
A single Meltagun shot's not something I'm inclined to use it on over an Exocist. Perhaps later in the game, but even then it's not game changing.
Saves are definitely a top use, but a 4+ dice to save a 9 point model early game is a waste, and volume of fire late game usually makes 1 save insignificant or is a 4++
It's all the little things that add up. it is a dice game at the end of the day anything that allows you to remove randomness and make it so you pass automatically or even force your opponent to throw more dies is a big long-term advantage if you're not using Miracle dice at all you can't really say it is a waste to save that nine-point model. Why take a chance on anything when you're given the ability not to
tneva82 wrote: Exorcist got 71% boost in firepower basically. 6 shots vs 3.5. 120 pts before? 41% price increase. So math says they got more point efficient, not less.
There's also resilience and general disposability to consider. I expect more out of a 170 point tank, and it hurts more when it dies. Also, 1d6 is a pretty easy to fix roll when it does do poorly, but 3d3 is basically impossible to re mediate a bad result for.
There's an argument that at it's worst it's still doing at the average level of the old one, but at it's worst it's doing a performance fit for a 125 point tank and not a 170 point one.
With the 1d6 one, you can roll through them and just re-roll the first one to do poorly. With 3d3, you're really down to only being able to fix it by pre-emptively using Devastating Refrain, and you can't forsee which one isn't going to work for you to pop it on.
I actually think the Command Russ is the best comparison for the current Exorcist. Where as I struggled to convince my opponents to shoot my Beta Exorcist...
I also feel that without Blind Faith, Devastating Refrain is a trap
Except that it isn't doing 71% more damage. It's doing at most 53% more damage with the heavy bolter - and I hate that it's mandatory, or ~43% more damage without it.
3d3 = 6 shots average.
6 * 2/3 hit = 4 hits
4 hits * 2/3 wounding vs T5-7 (where most vehicles reside) = 2 2/3 successful wounds
3+ save becomes 6+ = 2 2/9 failed saves
3.5 damage average = 7.78 damage
1d6 = 3.5 shots average
3.5 * 2/3 hit = 2 1/3 hits
2 1/3 hits * 2/3 wounding vs T5-7 = 1 5/9 failed saves (-4 to saves on old exorcist)
1 5/9 * 3.5 damage = 5.44 damage
7.778 / 5.444 = 1.429
Canoness re-rolls keep the odds the same. As for the heavy bolter, against MEQ, you're adding at most 0.778 wounds with a canoness nearby.
alextroy wrote: Unless you happen to be at a WHW Tournament, you don't need to repaint your army. That is the only place I have heard of where you have to play your army the way it is painted.
Wow. So I don't paint my miniatures like ANY of the official Orders, do I just not get a conviction in a WHW tournament?
As far as I know, you do. The rule is to prevent someone using, for example, Iron Hands rules when the army visually makes you think Dark Angels because they're all green.
IIRC, it also prevents a player from showing up with an army painted like a known Ultramarines successor from using successor tactics - the force must use the Ultramarines tactic.
Taikishi wrote: As far as I know, you do. The rule is to prevent someone using, for example, Iron Hands rules when the army visually makes you think Dark Angels because they're all green.
It's not strictly "paint" related from the way it has been explained. If you have a fully robed army, with bone-colored Terminators and black painted bikers with green infantry...you're Dark Angels, unless you've done extensive work to make it clear that it's not Dark Angels via iconography or some color substitutions.
Again though, it's strictly tied to Warhammer World's Tournaments. It seems to be in response to some of the last minute army hopping that has happened at some of their events.
tneva82 wrote: If you have resources left in abundance you aren't making use of them. You fixate just on the extreme passes. 12" in charges? I use them for 7" charges. For 3+/4+(particularly 4+) to wound rolls. I use to ensure there's no chance of dying with my 3 3+ saves with 3w left on character by passing one wound. Never failed 4+ to wound with meltagun? Never failed 2+ save roll? I guess you go "okay didnt' matter" when you fail your your 2+ save roll. Or that 7" charge failed? Who cares. You don't care about that charge right?
I agree. For years I've heard nothing but complaints about how 40K is TOO random and now some Sisters players are saying MD are a wasted mechanic because they have TOO many MD left over at games end or have so many that they don't know what to do with them all. A mechanic that reduces or even eliminates randomness in a game that is 90% random and 10% tactics seems like just what most players would like.
I would love guaranteed DR saves for my DG or guaranteed Smites going off from my Lords of Change.
I look at MD like CP. If you end a game with even 1 CP left you are doing it wrong. That's my 2 cents.
To be fair, 99% of what players see from GW in any official capacity is Martyred Lady so I wouldn't expect them to know the schemes of the other five major Orders Militant.
tneva82 wrote: If you have resources left in abundance you aren't making use of them. You fixate just on the extreme passes. 12" in charges? I use them for 7" charges. For 3+/4+(particularly 4+) to wound rolls. I use to ensure there's no chance of dying with my 3 3+ saves with 3w left on character by passing one wound. Never failed 4+ to wound with meltagun? Never failed 2+ save roll? I guess you go "okay didnt' matter" when you fail your your 2+ save roll. Or that 7" charge failed? Who cares. You don't care about that charge right?
I agree. For years I've heard nothing but complaints about how 40K is TOO random and now some Sisters players are saying MD are a wasted mechanic because they have TOO many MD left over at games end or have so many that they don't know what to do with them all. A mechanic that reduces or even eliminates randomness in a game that is 90% random and 10% tactics seems like just what most players would like.
I would love guaranteed DR saves for my DG or guaranteed Smites going off from my Lords of Change.
I look at MD like CP. If you end a game with even 1 CP left you are doing it wrong. That's my 2 cents.
It's the 'max potion' problem. You don't want to use your dice because what if I can get more value out of them later through DI or the raise a diceroll strat. Or even just not using a 3 because you might just roll a 5.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Taikishi wrote: To be fair, 99% of what players see from GW in any official capacity is Martyred Lady so I wouldn't expect them to know the schemes of the other five major Orders Militant.
It's the same for every non-marine army. Not many people even know what all 6 of the subfactions for all the armies are, let alone what paint schemes they use.
There's a reason the examples used are always green ultramarines and not Purple Jormungangr.
In this particular scenario it doesn't matter what percentage of 40k players know. Since we're specifically talking about Warhammer World, what matters is what the TOs of Warhammer World know and what they feel like enforcing.
That said, I'm totally ignorant about how they run things outside of the space marines stuff, if someone shows up with pristine white T'au are they unable to run them as Farsight Enclave?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course, an original colour scheme (even a derivative one) should be completely safe from such considerations.
A few pages ago I raised the question of crafting a deck of Tactical Objectives for the new CA 2019 "Schemes of War" missions. You need a minimum of 18 cards in your deck, five in your hand, and three in play on most turns, and the missions have mostly to do with manipulating your cards or your opponent's... so clearly inspired by tournament formats where players choose objectives that favor their army build.
Having played only one of these new scenarios, I think I'm on the right track... here's my current thinking.
Spoiler:
A core selection of twenty-two cards for every game:
12 - Armor of Contempt (pass a SoF or DtW test)
14 - Trust in the Emperor (gain 3 or 6 Miracle Dice this turn)
15 - The Blood of Martyrs (1 if a Sororitas unit is destroyed, 3 if a Character)
16 - Leap of Faith (perform Acts of Faith: 1 for 1, d3 for 3, d3+3 for 6)
21-26 - Secure Objectives 1-6 (control objective marker X at end of turn)
31-36 - Defend Objectives 1-6 (control an objective for two consecutive turns)
42 - Behind Enemy Lines (enter enemy DZ)
43 - Hold the Line (stay in your DZ)
45 - Supremacy (control any 3)
51 - Overwhelming Firepower (kill things in Shooting phase)
52 - Blood and Guts (kill things in Fight phase)
53 - No Prisoners (destroy enemy units, preferably lots)
Plus a six-card sidebar that is contingent on the opposing force:
11 - Slay the Heretic (kill a Character with a Ministorum unit)
61 - Kingslayer (extra for killing Warlord)
62 - Witch Hunter (kill a psyker)
63 - Scour the Skies (kill a flier)
64 - Assassinate (kill Characters, preferably lots)
65 - Big Game Hunter (kill big things)
My guiding principle was the second tier of points... lots of things are worth 1 VP, and a handful are worth 1 or 1d3 if a second condition is met, 1d3+3 or 1d6 if a further condition is met. I chose the ones with second-tier scoring that seemed manageable, mostly killing multiples of things. Cards that were only worth 1 VP or whose second tier looked like a bit of long shot stayed in the box. I also dumped things that didn't fit my build, like cards that required my Warlord or Exorcists to leave the deployment zone. Finally I set aside a sidebar to depend on the opponent's list... once I've seen how many fliers, big vehicles, or squishy characters they bring, I'll roll a few of those in. Out of 36 cards, I'll run between 22 and 28 in each game. Thoughts and insights most welcome...
At first I had the same problem but it gets overcome in time when you start to realise that using the 6 for a damage roll NOW is better than hoping for the best then regretting it later when it's too late because the tank you failed to bracket turn 1 just bracketed your Exo because of it. I'm finding its better to burn miracle dice than horde them because by mid-game you have less stuff that can actually use them.
Except with inv saves pretty much mandatory for anything worth saying even remotely survivable even -3 is overkill. There's reason why -2 is generally the sweet spot with -3 coming to play on the odd 2+/5++ units. Same reason why valorous heart is so bloody good. Everybody is fielding tons of -2 shots because everybody and kitchen sink is fielding inv saves.
If you are having use for the -3 odds are you didn't want to even target the unit in the first place.
In other news got my first game with pure sister army vs tau. Opponent probably didn't have that optimal tournament list and was rather good matchup for valorous heart. Only -3 he had was some h2h weapon(lol wut?). Not even sure did he have any -2 attacks either...Tons of -1 attacks though. 2 riptides with burst cannons and 2x4 crisis suits throwing in 36 S8 -1 Dd3 shots.
My ~100 sisters just weathered the attacks. Kept out of 15" range over which firepower isn't that bad. Used MD's to kill off riptide, odd saves passed here and there, 11" charge, inv save passed. Opponent was getting miffed at them and my "invulnerable saves" as he called when I was saving on 2+ or 3+ everything he had He seriously underestimated firepower he needed to kill stuff. Finally on 3rd turn when second crisis suit unit fired at penitent engine #2 he said he learned from mistake and fired whopping 24 shots at it. Well that did kill it!
T4 I got the leap of faith(score more vp the more acts of faith you use) and with plenty of banners and MD cherubs(largely with this card in mind!) I got easy 5 pts putting me to 20-4 lead and with time's coming up and his army basically being 2 squads of firewarriors, couple minor characters, riptide and 2 solo crisis suits facing heavy bolter retributions, celestine, celestians, another sister squad and canoness we called it the game.
Damn game took long time though...Need to sharpen up my game with less oomphing and aamphing.
tneva82 wrote: If you have resources left in abundance you aren't making use of them. You fixate just on the extreme passes. 12" in charges? I use them for 7" charges. For 3+/4+(particularly 4+) to wound rolls. I use to ensure there's no chance of dying with my 3 3+ saves with 3w left on character by passing one wound. Never failed 4+ to wound with meltagun? Never failed 2+ save roll? I guess you go "okay didnt' matter" when you fail your your 2+ save roll. Or that 7" charge failed? Who cares. You don't care about that charge right?
I agree. For years I've heard nothing but complaints about how 40K is TOO random and now some Sisters players are saying MD are a wasted mechanic because they have TOO many MD left over at games end or have so many that they don't know what to do with them all. A mechanic that reduces or even eliminates randomness in a game that is 90% random and 10% tactics seems like just what most players would like.
I would love guaranteed DR saves for my DG or guaranteed Smites going off from my Lords of Change.
I look at MD like CP. If you end a game with even 1 CP left you are doing it wrong. That's my 2 cents.
I might just have saved my canoness with one of the 2's the game above. I ended up losing all but 1 wound. Imagine I had not MD'ed one of the saves there would have been that tad under 1/6 odds of dying...
And of course there's that handy maelstrom card that you can score whopping 5 vp's. I try to keep couple MD's in spare just in case I get that! Even 3 VP from doing 3 acts can be helpful.
I was actually having bit hard as I was rolling too extremes. 1's or 5+. The 5+ are bit annoying to spend when you need 3 or 4 to wound.
Sim-Life wrote: At first I had the same problem but it gets overcome in time when you start to realise that using the 6 for a damage roll NOW is better than hoping for the best then regretting it later when it's too late because the tank you failed to bracket turn 1 just bracketed your Exo because of it. I'm finding its better to burn miracle dice than horde them because by mid-game you have less stuff that can actually use them.
Exactly. You generate more as game goes on either by killing or being killed but if a large portion of your Sisters army is gone or your opponents army is largely gone what good are miracle dice?
Given how easily they are generated I don't see the point in being stingy. I cringe whenever I watch batreps featuring Sisters and the Sisters player has 8 MD on turn 4 and then the entire turn they don't use a single MD but keep rolling 1's to hit or 1's for wound rolls or FNP saves. I know sometimes a player might forget they have MD at all but unless you set them on the table behind you they should be within LOS of you how would you forget you have them?
Sure, if you have Simulacrums everywhere allowing to make multiple AoF per turn I could see how you could burn through them quickly if not careful. In that case just don't be stupid with them. Like starting a game with 13 CP and having 0 CP by turn 3.
I see a lot of talk of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose but it seems like nobody talks about Argent Shroud any more. Did that order turn out to be a competitive dud?
Good question. It's been one I have been eyeballing but with just 1 proper game(the 4 with 2 starter set contents as soup part wasn't really proper test with like over half the sister goodies out of use...) so haven't had chance to use it.
Today though I would have loved to field them instead. Ignoring -2 was pointless as he had no -2 that I could see, 6+++ just delayed one retributor model dying for another unit to shoot and range was bit of issue. Valorous heart was basically "who cares" in this game. Argent shroud meanwhile would have been amazing...
Numarine meta is shroud's biggest weakness I think though. That -2 is so sweet vs numarines.
Rihgu wrote: I see a lot of talk of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose but it seems like nobody talks about Argent Shroud any more. Did that order turn out to be a competitive dud?
I'll eventually try them in a non-mechanized heavy/special weapon spam force... just run fancy guns into range and let the dice fly. Got the movement trays and everything... but no, I haven't tried them yet. I'd say they're definitely top three, and maybe better than the third spot with some builds.
Ok, so I have been keeping up with this thread and now I‘ve got a few questions if you folks don’t mind me asking?
Before hand, I have my own scheme of black armor, bone or cream colored habits. I also have a copy of the limited box set and I am drawn toward either Valorous Heart or Ebon Chalice. I’d like to stick to mono chambers, probably stick with Valorous Heart...
With that in mind here are some questions,
What should I do with the Battle sister with flame thrower? I like the model, but I see flamers are not the best, so I was wondering do I make a throw away Squad with another flamer? Also what to do with the battle standard miniature? Sorry I forgot the actual name of the item she has.
Speaking of Battle sister squads, what is the best size of squad to run my sisters? I saw someone earlier say that you’d want to run larger squads with Valorous Heart and I was wonder what size?
With the Valorous Heart, can I still use the sister repentia, arco flagellants and the penitent engine? Again I’d like to use what I have and build off from it but I’d like to try to get my monies worth.
With Valorous Heart can I run St Katherine’s Shrine? I know it’s not super competitive but I’d really like to get it as a center piece of the army.
Overall if I can use the box set and add in St Katherine and some exorcist what else should I get? Overall I’m shooting for a 1500 point army to start with.
Chaplain Pallantide wrote: What should I do with the Battle sister with flame thrower? I like the model, but I see flamers are not the best, so I was wondering do I make a throw away Squad with another flamer? Also what to do with the battle standard miniature? Sorry I forgot the actual name of the item she has.
Speaking of Battle sister squads, what is the best size of squad to run my sisters? I saw someone earlier say that you’d want to run larger squads with Valorous Heart and I was wonder what size?
With the Valorous Heart, can I still use the sister repentia, arco flagellants and the penitent engine? Again I’d like to use what I have and build off from it but I’d like to try to get my monies worth.
With Valorous Heart can I run St Katherine’s Shrine? I know it’s not super competitive but I’d really like to get it as a center piece of the army.
Overall if I can use the box set and add in St Katherine and some exorcist what else should I get? Overall I’m shooting for a 1500 point army to start with.
Thanks for your help!
The flamer can be fairly easily modified to look like a melta sister. You'll want to clip the barrel off (replacing it with a melta barrel) and the canister at bottom, the latter of which you can bisect laterally to adhere to the side of the weapon. Look at a normal melta gun to get an idea of what you're looking to emulate.
The simulacrum imperialis sister is something you're going to want from time to time, depending on squad. Assemble her as is would be your best plan.
All units in the core set can be used in any sisters army. Note that penitent engines are NOT ecclesiarchy battle conclave units and thus do not conflict with the arco flagellants in an army lacking a priest. That said, units lacking the order keyword will not benefit from your order's conviction, but that's ok. Just something to remember. Repentia, by the by, do possess the order keyword and thus can benefit from the usual stuff. Stick em in a rhino and ram them at your opponent!
Best size for sisters unit depends on a lot of factors. I'm not sure there's a clear consensus at the moment.
You can run the Triumph of Saint Katherine in any sororitas army, regardless of order. It lacks the order keyword, and thus gains no benefit from your conviction, but is otherwise fine. If you like it, run it.
You're going to want more sisters. Enough to fill out at least two battalions, if not a battalion and brigade. At 1500 points, you will want to aim for a battalion plus either a second battalion or a specialist detachment (supreme command, outrider, spearhead, or vanguard) That means running at minimum 3x5 sisters plus your HQ units. Grab up two of the basic sisters boxes, plus maybe two to four of the retributor boxes for a good start. Expand from there.
Ultimately, you're best served cracking open the codex and Battlescribe/a calculator and figuring out your 1500 point army list before buying anything else.
Rihgu wrote: I see a lot of talk of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose but it seems like nobody talks about Argent Shroud any more. Did that order turn out to be a competitive dud?
I have no idea. I've been using Bloody Rose all edition, so I just didn't get around to playing Argent Shroud, and Valorous Heart is super useful in the meta.
Argent Shroud is unexciting. It's a good ability, but it's not exactly the most exciting one in the codex. It's also not top in warlord trait, relic, and stratagem.
Chaplain Pallantide wrote: What should I do with the Battle sister with flame thrower? I like the model, but I see flamers are not the best, so I was wondering do I make a throw away Squad with another flamer? Also what to do with the battle standard miniature? Sorry I forgot the actual name of the item she has.
Just make spare flamer and use it for more casual games? It's 1 unit so it's not game breaking and there are times it's handy. I found it useful anyway when clearing some genestealers! Standard you can sprinkle around in units for more acts of faith. Particularly useful wth maelstrom and leap of faith card. Couple of those and getting 3+d3 vp is quite possible!
Speaking of Battle sister squads, what is the best size of squad to run my sisters? I saw someone earlier say that you’d want to run larger squads with Valorous Heart and I was wonder what size?
With storm bolter squads 5 works nicely. Melta squads you could consider running with few extra bodies. 10+ generally if you have the order that ignores morale casualties beyond 1 or stratagem. Order of my martyred lady could use with their order bonus though issue is not losing entire squad in one go.
With the Valorous Heart, can I still use the sister repentia, arco flagellants and the penitent engine? Again I’d like to use what I have and build off from it but I’d like to try to get my monies worth.
Yes though repentia suffer from VH order bonus being 99.99% useless. 7+/6++ save so you don't benefit from AP ignoring(unless there's some +2 cover bonus thingie they can get...that's why I didn't say 100% and covered my bases ) and 6+++ is useless as they have 5++ natively. Well unless you WANT for some tactical reason them to die so can opt to take 6+++ instead(again covering my bases with that 99.99% )
Mind you they still have done me proud in 2/5 games. In other 3 they got shot off board before reaching anything but rhino would help. They don't NEED bloody rose to be good. That just turns them to even nastier with extra attack.
With Valorous Heart can I run St Katherine’s Shrine? I know it’s not super competitive but I’d really like to get it as a center piece of the army.
Yep.
Overall if I can use the box set and add in St Katherine and some exorcist what else should I get? Overall I’m shooting for a 1500 point army to start with.
I would say 3 boxes of basic sisters and 2 retributors would make good start. You would have then 40 basic girls + 10 retributors. 4 multi melta, 4 heavy bolter(or flamer), 6x5 sisters for double battalion and 10 extra bodies to bulk out mainly retributors(particularly multi melta one) against casualties.
tneva82 wrote: If you have resources left in abundance you aren't making use of them. You fixate just on the extreme passes. 12" in charges? I use them for 7" charges. For 3+/4+(particularly 4+) to wound rolls. I use to ensure there's no chance of dying with my 3 3+ saves with 3w left on character by passing one wound. Never failed 4+ to wound with meltagun? Never failed 2+ save roll? I guess you go "okay didnt' matter" when you fail your your 2+ save roll. Or that 7" charge failed? Who cares. You don't care about that charge right?
I agree. For years I've heard nothing but complaints about how 40K is TOO random and now some Sisters players are saying MD are a wasted mechanic because they have TOO many MD left over at games end or have so many that they don't know what to do with them all. A mechanic that reduces or even eliminates randomness in a game that is 90% random and 10% tactics seems like just what most players would like.
I would love guaranteed DR saves for my DG or guaranteed Smites going off from my Lords of Change.
I look at MD like CP. If you end a game with even 1 CP left you are doing it wrong. That's my 2 cents.
Here's the thing, Sisters don't get that. We don't have psykers and wound ignoring abilities can't use AoFs.
We overcome the random by volume of fire. We favour redundancy in all our (limited) options so picking a way to use one effectively largely feels pointless. There are times when it's obviously not pointless but the number of dice you generate should out number the rolls you want to use them on.
Lammia wrote: Here's the thing, Sisters don't get that. We don't have psykers and wound ignoring abilities can't use AoFs.
We overcome the random by volume of fire. We favour redundancy in all our (limited) options so picking a way to use one effectively largely feels pointless. There are times when it's obviously not pointless but the number of dice you generate should out number the rolls you want to use them on.
Sisters have armour saves. And inv saves. And single shot weapons(*cough coughh*melta gun*couch cough*multi melta*couch couch*). And even exorcist fires just 3d3 shots. Getting 3-4 hits isn't that bad. Quaranteeing 1 wound from there is usefull.
Again you are just concentrating on hail mary long pass events forgeting steady boost thorough turn.
Captain Joystick wrote: In this particular scenario it doesn't matter what percentage of 40k players know. Since we're specifically talking about Warhammer World, what matters is what the TOs of Warhammer World know and what they feel like enforcing.
Yeah, that's why I was worried. Tournament organizers do not have a particularly great history of being reasonable and consistent, or of being flexible unless it's someone they already personally like.
Rihgu wrote: I see a lot of talk of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose but it seems like nobody talks about Argent Shroud any more. Did that order turn out to be a competitive dud?
I have no idea. I've been using Bloody Rose all edition, so I just didn't get around to playing Argent Shroud, and Valorous Heart is super useful in the meta.
Same here.
A Beneficence canoness is everything I could have asked for for an assault canoness other than a jump pack.
Lammia wrote: Here's the thing, Sisters don't get that. We don't have psykers and wound ignoring abilities can't use AoFs.
We overcome the random by volume of fire. We favour redundancy in all our (limited) options so picking a way to use one effectively largely feels pointless. There are times when it's obviously not pointless but the number of dice you generate should out number the rolls you want to use them on.
Sisters have armour saves. And inv saves. And single shot weapons(*cough coughh*melta gun*couch cough*multi melta*couch couch*). And even exorcist fires just 3d3 shots. Getting 3-4 hits isn't that bad. Quaranteeing 1 wound from there is usefull.
Again you are just concentrating on hail mary long pass events forgeting steady boost thorough turn.
I mean, it doesn't feel like a steady boost, and arguably isn't one at all, when you replace one dice out of 4 and one still misses or fails.
It's not about passing one armor save out of 4, it's about not failing one out of 4.
With only one roll to be replaced per phase, it feels like it would be much better to re-actively replace rolls. I don't care if I made one out of 4 meltaguns hit/wound if the unit gets less than 3 or 4 or so total wounds.
Mostly, I've been expending the rolls for damage results, charges, morale, and resurrecting dead canonesses. I use them for saves when there's a situation where passing the one ensures that someone/something won't die. I basically never use them for hit/wound rolls, because that also means I won't be able to use it for damage later in the turn.
Probabilistically:
(4*2/3)*(1/2)*3.5 = 4.66 mean assessed damage to the target
(3*2/3+1)*(1/2)*3.5 = 5.25 mean assessed damage to the target
By comparison ((4*2/3)*(1/2)-1)*3.5+6 = 7.17 mean assessed damage to the target
If you aren't using most of your Miracle Dice, you are either:
1. Generating more than you need
2. Need to purchase upgrades to allow you to use more
3. Need to be more liberal as to when you use them
How often do you actually successfully use them on Damage Rolls? As you say, you don't use them on Hit or Wound Rolls because you are saving for the possibility to use on a Damage Roll. If you are saving up for a Damage Roll that never happens you've wasted the opportunity to get some damage in for the possibility to get lots of damage in.
Mostly, I've been expending the rolls for damage results, charges, morale, and resurrecting dead canonesses. I use them for saves when there's a situation where passing the one ensures that someone/something won't die. I basically never use them for hit/wound rolls, because that also means I won't be able to use it for damage later in the turn.
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If you don't use them no point complaining they don't do anything then. You have option to use them but don't.
And most units don't have 4 meltas. Troop unit can get max 3 and that's not neccessarily even optimal.
alextroy wrote: If you aren't using most of your Miracle Dice, you are either:
1. Generating more than you need
2. Need to purchase upgrades to allow you to use more
3. Need to be more liberal as to when you use them
How often do you actually successfully use them on Damage Rolls? As you say, you don't use them on Hit or Wound Rolls because you are saving for the possibility to use on a Damage Roll. If you are saving up for a Damage Roll that never happens you've wasted the opportunity to get some damage in for the possibility to get lots of damage in.
If I assess literally 0 meltagun or exorcist damage rolls in a turn, then either my enemy is out of targets and I have no need for them or the miracle dice, or I've definitely lost the game and making one of the meltaguns hit wouldn't have made anything like a difference.
It's also 1 roll replacement per army per phase. It would be another thing if it was any number per army per phase, but with 1 roll replacement per army per phase that's just not a lot of influence on the course of the game. I make like 25 shots per turn that are either from Exorcists or Meltaguns.
There's like the fairly basic principle that the fewer of something you make, the more significant locking it in is, which is, IMO a good reason to use the 1 per army per phase on a damage roll instead of a hit roll.
Not even sure why you're discussing what specific cases to use MD in because their usefulness is going to be different in every game. The discussion is really wether its better to horde or burn.
I'm solidly on the "use them aggressively" side... I'll be building a Battle Sanctum as soon as I know the dimensions, and with that and Beacon of Faith I'll know I should plan to burn three per turn before I even start generating incidental MDs. Last game I made it to Turn 2 before I rolled a single 6, but I still made use of the 5s on heavily penalized saves (roll all but one of your saves first to see if a final auto-pass will matter), a pair of 4s on a BR Canoness + Beneficence solo charge into a unit of Intercessors where failure would have meant death, and so on.
I'll admit I'm still struggling to find the right place for Cherubs and Simulacra among my units. In the Shooting phase, it's nice to start with Exos and burn a 6 for damage, then use some combination of Cherubs and Simulacra to extend the miracles to some melta damage. Am I better off with more Cherubs to enhance the early game damage output, or more Simulacra to spread the dice around for the whole game? A mix of both? BSS + meltas? Dominions? Celestians? What are everyone's preferred loadout and upgrade combos?
MacPhail wrote: I'm solidly on the "use them aggressively" side... I'll be building a Battle Sanctum as soon as I know the dimensions, and with that and Beacon of Faith I'll know I should plan to burn three per turn before I even start generating incidental MDs. Last game I made it to Turn 2 before I rolled a single 6, but I still made use of the 5s on heavily penalized saves (roll all but one of your saves first to see if a final auto-pass will matter), a pair of 4s on a BR Canoness + Beneficence solo charge into a unit of Intercessors where failure would have meant death, and so on.
I'll admit I'm still struggling to find the right place for Cherubs and Simulacra among my units. In the Shooting phase, it's nice to start with Exos and burn a 6 for damage, then use some combination of Cherubs and Simulacra to extend the miracles to some melta damage. Am I better off with more Cherubs to enhance the early game damage output, or more Simulacra to spread the dice around for the whole game? A mix of both? BSS + meltas? Dominions? Celestians? What are everyone's preferred loadout and upgrade combos?
The bigger the unit, the more use you get out of either (mostly because in a 5 model squad the simulacrum will be dead real fast). It's one of the biggest payoffs of having bigger squads, beside certain other benefits (2+ to hit for a long time with Martyred Lady, benefits from other orders, more effective buffing with strats, less deployments for easier fist turn, less kill points to give up etc.).
The unit that will benefit the most by far from both extra bodies, simulacrum and maybe a cherub are Retributors, followed by celestians (Celestians are great and become really amazeballs with a few buffs) and then dominions/BSS (though the best dominion loadout is 4x SB for the strat and cheap cost definitely, though depending on how the FAQ rules, being able to burn several miracle dice and 2 CP at once to auto-hit and wound with all four meltas could be terrific if you get close. As is, the 4x SB squad mostly benefits from having 2-3 extra bodies in order to keep the unit worthwhile for burning the 2 CP for blessed bolts on), though of course BSS units are mandatory while Dominions are not (and having extra Obsec bodies on an objective is good).
If you suffer from bad Miracle Dice rolls, give Ebon Chalice a spin. Burning a dud in order to get an auto 6 is absolutely ace, especially for Exorcists (passing both a 6++ save and getting a 6 damage roll every turn, cough) and also saves you points and CP you'd otherwise spend on upcycling by other means. A Dialogus helps big time otherwise (suddenly the 5 you spoke of become a 6 free of charge (well, except for the cheap cost of the character)) and might be the best fix for you.
Also agreed that Miracle Dice need to be burned fast. Turn 1 and 2 are decisive most of the time, and afterwards you either have a legs-up anyway or are unlikely to change the odds with horded dice when you are considerably behind. Having a huge bunch of miracle dice (and they tend to pill up faster with every turn) won't do much good in the end game, especially because the longer the game goes on the less situations/ important phases you'll have to burn them.Having 1-3 to use in crucial moments that might still turn up, especially in a close game, is absolutely worthwhile, but more is a waste of one of the most valuable resources sisters have, especially for players like me that tend to get bad rolls in the worst moments.
MacPhail wrote: I'm solidly on the "use them aggressively" side... I'll be building a Battle Sanctum as soon as I know the dimensions, and with that and Beacon of Faith I'll know I should plan to burn three per turn before I even start generating incidental MDs. Last game I made it to Turn 2 before I rolled a single 6, but I still made use of the 5s on heavily penalized saves (roll all but one of your saves first to see if a final auto-pass will matter), a pair of 4s on a BR Canoness + Beneficence solo charge into a unit of Intercessors where failure would have meant death, and so on.
I'll admit I'm still struggling to find the right place for Cherubs and Simulacra among my units. In the Shooting phase, it's nice to start with Exos and burn a 6 for damage, then use some combination of Cherubs and Simulacra to extend the miracles to some melta damage. Am I better off with more Cherubs to enhance the early game damage output, or more Simulacra to spread the dice around for the whole game? A mix of both? BSS + meltas? Dominions? Celestians? What are everyone's preferred loadout and upgrade combos?
Completely plain, or with 2 special weapons. I haven't bought either the cherub or the simulacra.
Much like vox casters, cheap still adds up and I'm only willing to invest points into upgrading units I actually care about [read, not troop choices] and where the investment will make a significant difference. Maybe if an Exorcist could buy one, or if there was something like a laser destroyer that could really get good miles out of it, but like a BSS squad isn't really going to leverage it that well especially to buy 2 ten point upgrades for it, and 6-9 BSS squads later and the hole starts to add up.
Note that the impact of a simulacra or cherub does not increase with squad size. This means it's basically best to buy a crap-ton of them for every one of your small squads, but that adds up really fast. If you're going to buy one, buy it for a key squad like Rets or Doms or something.
I plan to run my BSS with a combi Melta and mace on the superior, similacrum and nothing else. The other 3 girls are fodder. Bloody rose clearly.
I just try my luck with all those meltas on the squads, and every time one hits I can auto wound if the target has no invul, or push damage when he fails an invul save.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Note that the impact of a simulacra or cherub does not increase with squad size. This means it's basically best to buy a crap-ton of them for every one of your small squads, but that adds up really fast. If you're going to buy one, buy it for a key squad like Rets or Doms or something.
I half agree.
The impact of cherubs is based on the weapons the unit has, not the number of models.
The impact of simulacra is based on how many times you get to use it. That is increased by durability, which more models enhances.
It's also 1 roll replacement per army per phase. It would be another thing if it was any number per army per phase, but with 1 roll replacement per army per phase that's just not a lot of influence on the course of the game.
That is why I use Simulacrums and the Triumph, thus able to perform six from the icons alone, and all three Exorcists in every phase. That level of flexibility has been boatloads of fun.
It's also 1 roll replacement per army per phase. It would be another thing if it was any number per army per phase, but with 1 roll replacement per army per phase that's just not a lot of influence on the course of the game.
That is why I use Simulacrums and the Triumph, thus able to perform six from the icons alone, and all three Exorcists in every phase. That level of flexibility has been boatloads of fun.
Uh, how are you getting the extra miracle dice on the exorcists? The first one used removes the option from the other two.
Just read a Goonhammer article where they were talking about 3 interesting lists that will compete at LVO, and one of them was a Sisters list. Battalion of Valorous Heart with 3 Exorcists and Celestine, Battalion of Bloody Rose with 2 Repentia units in Rhinos and a couple of Seraphim squads with hand flamers, plus a pair of Penitent Engines. The VH Battle Sisters were 10-girl squads with 2 Storm Bolters and no other upgrades, while the BR ones were 5 girls with a single SB in two of them (nothing at all in the third). I'll be curious to see how it does at LVO, as it's not too far off from lists I've been thinking about.
It's also 1 roll replacement per army per phase. It would be another thing if it was any number per army per phase, but with 1 roll replacement per army per phase that's just not a lot of influence on the course of the game.
That is why I use Simulacrums and the Triumph, thus able to perform six from the icons alone, and all three Exorcists in every phase. That level of flexibility has been boatloads of fun.
Uh, how are you getting the extra miracle dice on the exorcists? The first one used removes the option from the other two.
I’ve been a sisters player for over 15 years and have my army painted in traditional Bloody Rose scheme. I have really liked the Valorous Heart back story and their Convictions.
In order to play VH do I need to repaint them or can I make up a storyline to lineup the color scheme with VH?
There’s a order that split from VH that wears red armor called order of the Wounded heart, so you could use them as VH without repainting your models.
MacPhail wrote: I'm solidly on the "use them aggressively" side... I'll be building a Battle Sanctum as soon as I know the dimensions, and with that and Beacon of Faith I'll know I should plan to burn three per turn before I even start generating incidental MDs. Last game I made it to Turn 2 before I rolled a single 6, but I still made use of the 5s on heavily penalized saves (roll all but one of your saves first to see if a final auto-pass will matter), a pair of 4s on a BR Canoness + Beneficence solo charge into a unit of Intercessors where failure would have meant death, and so on.
I'll admit I'm still struggling to find the right place for Cherubs and Simulacra among my units. In the Shooting phase, it's nice to start with Exos and burn a 6 for damage, then use some combination of Cherubs and Simulacra to extend the miracles to some melta damage. Am I better off with more Cherubs to enhance the early game damage output, or more Simulacra to spread the dice around for the whole game? A mix of both? BSS + meltas? Dominions? Celestians? What are everyone's preferred loadout and upgrade combos?
The bigger the unit, the more use you get out of either (mostly because in a 5 model squad the simulacrum will be dead real fast). It's one of the biggest payoffs of having bigger squads, beside certain other benefits (2+ to hit for a long time with Martyred Lady, benefits from other orders, more effective buffing with strats, less deployments for easier fist turn, less kill points to give up etc.).
The unit that will benefit the most by far from both extra bodies, simulacrum and maybe a cherub are Retributors, followed by celestians (Celestians are great and become really amazeballs with a few buffs) and then dominions/BSS (though the best dominion loadout is 4x SB for the strat and cheap cost definitely, though depending on how the FAQ rules, being able to burn several miracle dice and 2 CP at once to auto-hit and wound with all four meltas could be terrific if you get close. As is, the 4x SB squad mostly benefits from having 2-3 extra bodies in order to keep the unit worthwhile for burning the 2 CP for blessed bolts on), though of course BSS units are mandatory while Dominions are not (and having extra Obsec bodies on an objective is good).
If you suffer from bad Miracle Dice rolls, give Ebon Chalice a spin. Burning a dud in order to get an auto 6 is absolutely ace, especially for Exorcists (passing both a 6++ save and getting a 6 damage roll every turn, cough) and also saves you points and CP you'd otherwise spend on upcycling by other means. A Dialogus helps big time otherwise (suddenly the 5 you spoke of become a 6 free of charge (well, except for the cheap cost of the character)) and might be the best fix for you.
Also agreed that Miracle Dice need to be burned fast. Turn 1 and 2 are decisive most of the time, and afterwards you either have a legs-up anyway or are unlikely to change the odds with horded dice when you are considerably behind. Having a huge bunch of miracle dice (and they tend to pill up faster with every turn) won't do much good in the end game, especially because the longer the game goes on the less situations/ important phases you'll have to burn them.Having 1-3 to use in crucial moments that might still turn up, especially in a close game, is absolutely worthwhile, but more is a waste of one of the most valuable resources sisters have, especially for players like me that tend to get bad rolls in the worst moments.
See, I've found the opposite to be true. Late game is when I've found MD most useful. Making those sub-optimal plays you make because it's the best option you have actually pay off.
Had a narrative game recently. 4k of effectively Witch hunters vs 5k+ of friends big chaos collection.
Used the multi dice MD interpretation and didn't build around spamming MD generation.
Was a fun game, my take aways were:
I need to remember that Ebon Chalice can discard an MD to get an auto 6. I completely forgot I could do this all game and it would've been super useful in turn 5 when I had 8MD left, (all 1s and 2s because I was rolling absolute garbage for them all game and I only got a handful of dice over a 3) and could have made some important saves on one of my Exorcists.
Ebon Chalice 5+ against MW is actually really nice. It he lpped against smites, yes, but even against exploding vehicles, it saved more than a few models and character wounds.
The flamer strat for Ebon Chalice is good. I used it once on a dominion squad to (barely) wipe out a squad of pox walkers.
I fielded a couple units of single Anchorite Mortifiers. The speed of them was nice, but I was wanting for the Pengines FNP and for their rerolls. The save on the Anchorite was nice, but I'll definately be sticking to standard Pengines.
It was the first time I'd not fielded a Bloody Rose Cannoness with Beneficence. I didnt realise how.much I leaned on her until now. Having a blessed blade Cannoness with only 4 base attacks was so...painful.
I took a squad of 7 Zephryim. I need to try them out in some more games as they ended up going up against a squad of deathguard marines, so their performance even with rerolls was...well gak. The Pennant flag thing upgrade did help get some other squads into combat though, so that was a definate plus.
Inquisitor with Mental Interrogation for the chance at scoring some extra CP was a nice trick up the sleeve. It did score me a couple CP in the game which ultimately let me bring back a Cannoness.
It's also 1 roll replacement per army per phase. It would be another thing if it was any number per army per phase, but with 1 roll replacement per army per phase that's just not a lot of influence on the course of the game.
That is why I use Simulacrums and the Triumph, thus able to perform six from the icons alone, and all three Exorcists in every phase. That level of flexibility has been boatloads of fun.
Uh, how are you getting the extra miracle dice on the exorcists? The first one used removes the option from the other two.
Icon of the Valorous Heart on the Triumph lets another Exorcist act, and while I can't use an act of faith on the third, I do use low Miracle dice with Moment of Grace to upgrade a failed wound to a success after rolling, which I admittedly only do in the first turn to maximize initial damage because it costs CP.
There are so many uses for miracle dice I honestly can't believe people would be left with excess. I lean into the mechanic, though - so I guess I understand if somebody else prefers a different part of the army to take center stage.
It's also 1 roll replacement per army per phase. It would be another thing if it was any number per army per phase, but with 1 roll replacement per army per phase that's just not a lot of influence on the course of the game.
That is why I use Simulacrums and the Triumph, thus able to perform six from the icons alone, and all three Exorcists in every phase. That level of flexibility has been boatloads of fun.
Uh, how are you getting the extra miracle dice on the exorcists? The first one used removes the option from the other two.
Icon of the Valorous Heart on the Triumph lets another Exorcist act, and while I can't use an act of faith on the third, I do use low Miracle dice with Moment of Grace to upgrade a failed wound to a success after rolling, which I admittedly only do in the first turn to maximize initial damage because it costs CP.
There are so many uses for miracle dice I honestly can't believe people would be left with excess. I lean into the mechanic, though - so I guess I understand if somebody else prefers a different part of the army to take center stage.
Ok, I didn't have my codex handy when I asked.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, for the person who was looking:
In the Battle sister squad box #4 and 5 are the two who can be built as heavy weapons girls.
I use Repressors loaded with Sisters to push up field.
I have been thinking of using Order of our Martyred Lady and using Junith Eruita within 6” of the Repressors to give them the rerolls for hits and wounds (it helps that she moves 10” and can mostly keep up with them). Being as that ability is conferred onto the Repressors, would the units INSIDE also benefit from the buff??
I use Repressors loaded with Sisters to push up field.
I have been thinking of using Order of our Martyred Lady and using Junith Eruita within 6” of the Repressors to give them the rerolls for hits and wounds (it helps that she moves 10” and can mostly keep up with them). Being as that ability is conferred onto the Repressors, would the units INSIDE also benefit from the buff??
No-only MODIFIERS are, such as +1 to-hit. Rerolls are NOT conferred to occupants.
I use Repressors loaded with Sisters to push up field.
I have been thinking of using Order of our Martyred Lady and using Junith Eruita within 6” of the Repressors to give them the rerolls for hits and wounds (it helps that she moves 10” and can mostly keep up with them). Being as that ability is conferred onto the Repressors, would the units INSIDE also benefit from the buff??
Unless the rule specifically says so the units inside are considered to be "Not on the table" for purposes of all other rules
I'm so glad I don't plan to attend any WHW tournaments. Not that I could afford to anyway.
My LGS doesn't care what color your army is so long as you have all relevant books to use it and you identify clearly what chapter/cult/kabal/hive fleet/etc you are using.
My Sisters or going to be VH in all but the armor which will be Vallejo Gunmetal Blue (kind of a blue steel). Cloth and markings, etc will be traditional VH colors just because red and blue just work together and look good together.
My store should get the first wave of releases today or tomorrow, just depends when UPS guy shows up.
MacPhail wrote: I'm solidly on the "use them aggressively" side... I'll be building a Battle Sanctum as soon as I know the dimensions, and with that and Beacon of Faith I'll know I should plan to burn three per turn before I even start generating incidental MDs. Last game I made it to Turn 2 before I rolled a single 6, but I still made use of the 5s on heavily penalized saves (roll all but one of your saves first to see if a final auto-pass will matter), a pair of 4s on a BR Canoness + Beneficence solo charge into a unit of Intercessors where failure would have meant death, and so on.
I'll admit I'm still struggling to find the right place for Cherubs and Simulacra among my units. In the Shooting phase, it's nice to start with Exos and burn a 6 for damage, then use some combination of Cherubs and Simulacra to extend the miracles to some melta damage. Am I better off with more Cherubs to enhance the early game damage output, or more Simulacra to spread the dice around for the whole game? A mix of both? BSS + meltas? Dominions? Celestians? What are everyone's preferred loadout and upgrade combos?
Completely plain, or with 2 special weapons. I haven't bought either the cherub or the simulacra.
Much like vox casters, cheap still adds up and I'm only willing to invest points into upgrading units I actually care about [read, not troop choices] and where the investment will make a significant difference. Maybe if an Exorcist could buy one, or if there was something like a laser destroyer that could really get good miles out of it, but like a BSS squad isn't really going to leverage it that well especially to buy 2 ten point upgrades for it, and 6-9 BSS squads later and the hole starts to add up.
Note that the impact of a simulacra or cherub does not increase with squad size. This means it's basically best to buy a crap-ton of them for every one of your small squads, but that adds up really fast. If you're going to buy one, buy it for a key squad like Rets or Doms or something.
Triple melta argent shroud BSS get great mileage out of them. Point for point they're more efficient than dominions because increasing the number of meltas doesn't increase the simulacrum value.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
jivardi wrote: I'm so glad I don't plan to attend any WHW tournaments. Not that I could afford to anyway.
My LGS doesn't care what color your army is so long as you have all relevant books to use it and you identify clearly what chapter/cult/kabal/hive fleet/etc you are using.
My Sisters or going to be VH in all but the armor which will be Vallejo Gunmetal Blue (kind of a blue steel). Cloth and markings, etc will be traditional VH colors just because red and blue just work together and look good together.
My store should get the first wave of releases today or tomorrow, just depends when UPS guy shows up.
No one on earth will ever enforce those painting rules on a non-marine army. Not that many people COULD. Even most marine armies will get away with it.
I’ve been a sisters player for over 15 years and have my army painted in traditional Bloody Rose scheme. I have really liked the Valorous Heart back story and their Convictions.
In order to play VH do I need to repaint them or can I make up a storyline to lineup the color scheme with VH?
There’s a order that split from VH that wears red armor called order of the Wounded heart, so you could use them as VH without repainting your models.
Don't repaint you models for rules, ever. No one will be able to call you on them(because no one knows what Sisters look like) and even if they did, just claim it's a homebrew chapter.
Is Horde the way to go now for competitive Pure Sisters?
I’ve played fully meched Sisters since 2003 (Repressors and Immolators). I’m also a competitive player who has over the last few years allied in Imperial Guard.
But I’m ready to get back to Pure Sisters. No doubt we still don’t have the tools to compete top tier but we do have some kick... and as I try out new lists the more I come to the belief that horde is the most competitive build we have. I hate it as I’ve never played horde but if it gets my Girls winning more then ok.
I’ve been using 90 or so troop Girls as my core in a brigade with supporting staff. Model count has averaged 140 with no vehicles. Also been adding Coteaz for Psyker support.
I think Val Heart is the best for horde, giving every model 6++/6+++ minimum and ignoring AP1. Add in a couple Imagifiers for ignore AP2 in much of the list, Divine Guidance Trait, around 30 storm bolters / 15 MM / 10 combiplasmas and a few Infernos on the Canonesses - that’s a lot of firepower with the majority re-rolling 1s.
I've found I get good mileage out of spreading my meltaguns out in more BSS, rather htan focused all in a few dominions. Each meltagun having a few ablative wounds helps them get more shots out.
But I also play Bloody Rose, not Argent Shroud or the other convictions, and my playtested lists are probably far from optimized (they're just what I personally want to play).
I'm actually considering removing my Dominions for Seraphim in spite of mine being originally intended to be an entirely mechanized list.
davidgr33n wrote: Is Horde the way to go now for competitive Pure Sisters?
I’ve played fully meched Sisters since 2003 (Repressors and Immolators). I’m also a competitive player who has over the last few years allied in Imperial Guard.
But I’m ready to get back to Pure Sisters. No doubt we still don’t have the tools to compete top tier but we do have some kick... and as I try out new lists the more I come to the belief that horde is the most competitive build we have. I hate it as I’ve never played horde but if it gets my Girls winning more then ok.
I’ve been using 90 or so troop Girls as my core in a brigade with supporting staff. Model count has averaged 140 with no vehicles. Also been adding Coteaz for Psyker support.
I think Val Heart is the best for horde, giving every model 6++/6+++ minimum and ignoring AP1. Add in a couple Imagifiers for ignore AP2 in much of the list, Divine Guidance Trait, around 30 storm bolters / 15 MM / 10 combiplasmas and a few Infernos on the Canonesses - that’s a lot of firepower with the majority re-rolling 1s.
Anyone else having good success with hordes?
I've not been playing REAL hordes, but I'm usually trying to put about 70 sisters on the table. It has done well for me so far. Still has room to bring some nice equipment and specialist units instead of just cramming as many bodies as possible.
I'm running about 100 models atm but then again with GW release schedule made other than infantry swarm quickly hard. And don't have cash to buy tons of vehicles even if all comes out. Just exorcists not good in that they will just eat all AT if alone.
Sim-Life wrote: In fairness what we see at LVO isn't really a fair representation of the army since half the models aren't/weren't released in time.
Assuming guy didn't have existing army. I would expect sob players be veterans since 3 kits do not army make. And none of the new units without old models aren't essential.
Ih is just so broken not many can compete with them. Even vh will melt with 20 s7 -3 shots coming in and that's lesser worry with ih...
Sim-Life wrote: In fairness what we see at LVO isn't really a fair representation of the army since half the models aren't/weren't released in time.
Assuming guy didn't have existing army. I would expect sob players be veterans since 3 kits do not army make. And none of the new units without old models aren't essential.
Ih is just so broken not many can compete with them. Even vh will melt with 20 s7 -3 shots coming in and that's lesser worry with ih...
Well the zephyrim, Triumph, mortifiers, sanctum, Junith are all new and had no models in time. Mortifiers and Zephyrim are obviously the big absentees as both seem like great units on paper but obviously no one could use them in tournaments yet. I think the Sanctum and Triumph have a place but because they don't have models haven't seen much use. IMO the only model that would never be much use is Junith but I'm willing to be wrong on that, I've not tried a Martyred horde but I like the sound of it.
Also IH being incredibly OP just further enforces my point.
Sim-Life wrote: In fairness what we see at LVO isn't really a fair representation of the army since half the models aren't/weren't released in time.
Assuming guy didn't have existing army. I would expect sob players be veterans since 3 kits do not army make. And none of the new units without old models aren't essential.
Ih is just so broken not many can compete with them. Even vh will melt with 20 s7 -3 shots coming in and that's lesser worry with ih...
Well the zephyrim, Triumph, mortifiers, sanctum, Junith are all new and had no models in time. Mortifiers and Zephyrim are obviously the big absentees as both seem like great units on paper but obviously no one could use them in tournaments yet. I think the Sanctum and Triumph have a place but because they don't have models haven't seen much use. IMO the only model that would never be much use is Junith but I'm willing to be wrong on that, I've not tried a Martyred horde but I like the sound of it.
Also IH being incredibly OP just further enforces my point.
Whether the models exist or not is actually pretty irrelevant. It's not that hard to glue a powersword to a seraphim and call it a zephyrim. Like the #1 SoB player has.
It's hard to tell because FLG screwed up BCP but I think the number one SoB player (not kyle thomsen, he played marines it just lists him as sororitas) played a valorous heart+Boody rose list of:
Val Brigade with 2 Canoness and a Missionary, 6 min naked BSS squads, 3 Seraphim with IP and PP, 3 Exorcists, 2 Imags and a Hospitaller(i believe) and a BR Vanguard with 3x10 Zephyrim and a Canoness and went at least 4-0.
It's a pretty bog standard list though I would have dropped the plasma pistols for stormbolters on the battle sisters and done my best to squeez Celestine in there considering how well she synergizes with Zephyrim. But that's just personal preference and he's clearly doing just fine with what he's got.
Sim-Life wrote: In fairness what we see at LVO isn't really a fair representation of the army since half the models aren't/weren't released in time.
Assuming guy didn't have existing army. I would expect sob players be veterans since 3 kits do not army make. And none of the new units without old models aren't essential.
Ih is just so broken not many can compete with them. Even vh will melt with 20 s7 -3 shots coming in and that's lesser worry with ih...
Well the zephyrim, Triumph, mortifiers, sanctum, Junith are all new and had no models in time. Mortifiers and Zephyrim are obviously the big absentees as both seem like great units on paper but obviously no one could use them in tournaments yet. I think the Sanctum and Triumph have a place but because they don't have models haven't seen much use. IMO the only model that would never be much use is Junith but I'm willing to be wrong on that, I've not tried a Martyred horde but I like the sound of it.
Also IH being incredibly OP just further enforces my point.
Out of those only one that will likely be on sister top competive unit is Zephyr but that's one of the easiest conversions to do. Literally just replace one pistol with power sword. Mortifier is unlikely to be top dog with all the hgih ROF medium damage medium AP weapons that are the fashion now not to mention imperial fists that will eat those for breakfast. Haven't heard anybody claim triumph is even remotely competive let alone one whose missing would make not good representation here.
MAYBE sanctum but again doubtful that will make sisters suddenly IH crushing power house. No the game was just another example of how IH are playing basically game of their own.
I mean with how badly balanced 40k generally and particularly currently is (particularly thanks to the Marine Supplements) if winning hyper-competitive events is that important, you're just gonna shell out the hundreds of dollars to buy the latest broken gak (IH&IF) like the rest of the hyper-comp band-wagon does. Either that or you accept your fate that you'll be attending such events for other reasons (fun, meeting new people, getting a bunch of games in, etc.).
That's why I wouldn't worry about IH that much anyway to the point it becomes the only focus of discussion or list-building. If someone's only starting to play Sisters for comp reasons then they'll be in for a rude awakening (even if you go full 'screw IH' counter builds, they'll still wipe the floor with you because they are just that broken) . That's why I think if someone's playing sisters it's not going to be all about maximum power and winning chances.
That said, to encourage some tactics discussion outside of Valorous Heart and meta-building, how about excluding Codex Vanilla Astartes and Supplements entirely for a bit and talk about: Watcha guys thing about our worst and best matchups against other armies and for what reasons ?
And because I'm starting with Ebon Chalice, how do you guys like the EC gals and what are your lists, tactics and strategies for them ^^?
That was kind of my point when I said IH being OP is enforcing my point. They'll likely be nerfed soon enough and we can judge Sisters against a meta that isn't totally skewed towards 2.0 Marines but until then theres no point in judging Sisters by their LVO preformance.
I should point out that I'm not a competitive player so how they do in LVO or any tournament is of no consequence to me.
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Ragnar Blackmane wrote: I mean with how badly balanced 40k generally and particularly currently is (particularly thanks to the Marine Supplements) if winning hyper-competitive events is that important, you're just gonna shell out the hundreds of dollars to buy the latest broken gak (IH&IF) like the rest of the hyper-comp band-wagon does. Either that or you accept your fate that you'll be attending such events for other reasons (fun, meeting new people, getting a bunch of games in, etc.).
That's why I wouldn't worry about IH that much anyway to the point it becomes the only focus of discussion or list-building. If someone's only starting to play Sisters for comp reasons then they'll be in for a rude awakening (even if you go full 'screw IH' counter builds, they'll still wipe the floor with you because they are just that broken) . That's why I think if someone's playing sisters it's not going to be all about maximum power and winning chances.
That said, to encourage some tactics discussion outside of Valorous Heart and meta-building, how about excluding Codex Vanilla Astartes and Supplements entirely for a bit and talk about: Watcha guys thing about our worst and best matchups against other armies and for what reasons ?
And because I'm starting with Ebon Chalice, how do you guys like the EC gals and what are your lists, tactics and strategies for them ^^?
I love Ebon Chalice. I think they're being severely under rated because VH does well in the tournament meta. After Marines are nerfed I think they'll get more attention. I think they'd be a prime Order for meltas in basic squads.
Ragnar Blackmane wrote: I mean with how badly balanced 40k generally and particularly currently is (particularly thanks to the Marine Supplements) if winning hyper-competitive events is that important, you're just gonna shell out the hundreds of dollars to buy the latest broken gak (IH&IF) like the rest of the hyper-comp band-wagon does. Either that or you accept your fate that you'll be attending such events for other reasons (fun, meeting new people, getting a bunch of games in, etc.).
Not every competitive player has the same goals, the same way not every painter does. (Also, Bandwagoning =/= Competitive. There are plenty of IH players who have a precisely 0% chance of any significant placing on the simple basis that they went out and bought the thing that's 'uber competitive' without understanding either what the list does or that they themselves suck and are bad.)
Very few, maybe 10% of players go in thinking they can actually win the event. Being best in faction or just doing the best you can with the army you like is a far more common goal.
Some players, even ones in that 10% who DO have a legitimate shot at winning big events, just like being the underdog. They also understand enough to know that just bringing the current best army in the game means d*** all if you A. Don't know how to play it and B. Don't enjoy playing it enough to really push yourself to practice with it a lot and adjust your style to match the strengths of the army.
I love Ebon Chalice. I think they're being severely under rated because VH does well in the tournament meta. After Marines are nerfed I think they'll get more attention. I think they'd be a prime Order for meltas in basic squads.
I can't imagine anything being better than argent shroud for that. Being able to guarantee 6 damage every 2 miracle dice(+1 the one for the start of the round) is nice but requires significant investment in dice generation to get a lot of benefit out of it and transfers your vulnerability to the will of the dice from the damage roll to the hit roll. It's an interesting equation AS=.667*3.5-(1MD>=4), EC= .5*6-(2*MD<=4) But I think argent shroud comes out on top when you consider that you'll also be benefiting rapid fire weapons. It's not that EC is bad for this, it's just that AS is REALLY good with meltas on BSS.
Ebon Chalice DOES have a lot going for it though, more than I thought originally. Their strategem is great, they have easily the best of the Order Specific Warlord Traits, being able to guarantee 6s for your miracle dice at relatively low cost is incredibly powerful. You'll definitely have the tools to succeed in a different meta.
I like EC for meltas more because of the headgames it plays when your opponent doesn't want to charge anything into your BSS squads because you have a guaranteed 6 whenever you want it. Your basic BSS squads will generally be safe from anything REALLY scary charging them because anything scary will be put off by getting shot with a melta in Overwatch.
ERJAK wrote: It's hard to tell because FLG screwed up BCP but I think the number one SoB player (not kyle thomsen, he played marines it just lists him as sororitas) played a valorous heart+Boody rose list of:
Val Brigade with 2 Canoness and a Missionary, 6 min naked BSS squads, 3 Seraphim with IP and PP, 3 Exorcists, 2 Imags and a Hospitaller(i believe) and a BR Vanguard with 3x10 Zephyrim and a Canoness and went at least 4-0.
It's a pretty bog standard list though I would have dropped the plasma pistols for stormbolters on the battle sisters and done my best to squeez Celestine in there considering how well she synergizes with Zephyrim. But that's just personal preference and he's clearly doing just fine with what he's got.
If Reddit it right, that is Alan Bajramovic's List and he placed 20th (5-1) losing in the 5th Round to Alexander Fennell's Raptors (6-1, somewhere between 9-13th place) by 1 point. Kudos to Alan!
I'm currently in an escalation league and I gotta say mortifiers have been mvp in the 500 pts range. I've also taken repentia that have torn units to shreds but once they wipe out the unit they crash into they just get blown to bits in the next shooting.
We are playing a modified patrol detachment that makes things very limiting (only 1 fa elite and heavy, no flyers, max of 2 troops and only 1 hq until 1k) so it rewards creativity.
I'm thinking of going max girls squads and go sacred rose to minimize loss of the limited special weps and regenerate miracle dice
I made a list. Not bleeding-edge competitive, but I don't go to tournaments, so I don't need it to be. That being said, I'd love critique and advice on it!
JNAProductions wrote: I made a list. Not bleeding-edge competitive, but I don't go to tournaments, so I don't need it to be. That being said, I'd love critique and advice on it!
JNAProductions wrote: I made a list. Not bleeding-edge competitive, but I don't go to tournaments, so I don't need it to be. That being said, I'd love critique and advice on it!
JNAProductions wrote: I made a list. Not bleeding-edge competitive, but I don't go to tournaments, so I don't need it to be. That being said, I'd love critique and advice on it!
What are the Hospitaliers for?
Rezzing Retributors or, more likely, Arcos.
I'd move the retributors to one of the battalions and move the Pengines to the Spearhead and make it Valorous Heart, or even Ebon Chalice. If valorous heart obviously drop some points to get an imagifier. This means your Pengines as distraction carnifex is more effective because your opponent won't want to be throwing things like RFBC at the Exorcists.
If ebon chalice, you get better miracle dice and access to their great warlord trait(since you can't actually get the 4++).
More than one LVO Sisters list ran a combination of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose, so it seems like that's probably the way to go for competitive play. I like Zephyrim (on paper anyway), but I still think I like Repentia in Rhinos better. Maybe if you really double down on Zephyrim and bring Celestine with them they can really shine though, but S3 is a bit of a deal breaker even with the BR strat, and they'll probably outrun any Imagifier support that could give them S4.
ZergSmasher wrote: More than one LVO Sisters list ran a combination of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose, so it seems like that's probably the way to go for competitive play. I like Zephyrim (on paper anyway), but I still think I like Repentia in Rhinos better. Maybe if you really double down on Zephyrim and bring Celestine with them they can really shine though, but S3 is a bit of a deal breaker even with the BR strat, and they'll probably outrun any Imagifier support that could give them S4.
Reroll wounds is a big deal and I think works out better than S4 I think.
ZergSmasher wrote: More than one LVO Sisters list ran a combination of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose, so it seems like that's probably the way to go for competitive play. I like Zephyrim (on paper anyway), but I still think I like Repentia in Rhinos better. Maybe if you really double down on Zephyrim and bring Celestine with them they can really shine though, but S3 is a bit of a deal breaker even with the BR strat, and they'll probably outrun any Imagifier support that could give them S4.
Reroll wounds is a big deal and I think works out better than S4 I think.
If you can exclusively target T5 or T8 it's literally irrelevant.
ZergSmasher wrote: More than one LVO Sisters list ran a combination of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose, so it seems like that's probably the way to go for competitive play. I like Zephyrim (on paper anyway), but I still think I like Repentia in Rhinos better. Maybe if you really double down on Zephyrim and bring Celestine with them they can really shine though, but S3 is a bit of a deal breaker even with the BR strat, and they'll probably outrun any Imagifier support that could give them S4.
Reroll wounds is a big deal and I think works out better than S4 I think.
55% vs 50% so yeah. Maybe he was hoping for S4 AND reroll to wound? Which would be bonkers good upgrade 75% vs T4 and 55% vs T5-T7 would be pretty sweet.
limitless success, just about? 36-6 before the new codex this year and then 9-1 so far with them with the new codex. Loss was to the new Blood Angels. We both felt that terrain basically made the game incredibly difficult for me but that's the wages of war. I guess since LVO just happened my official final total for this year was 45-7 as "horde" sisters.
Did also do Mech'd with the Beta which was 7-4 but that just was not as good.
ZergSmasher wrote: More than one LVO Sisters list ran a combination of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose, so it seems like that's probably the way to go for competitive play. I like Zephyrim (on paper anyway), but I still think I like Repentia in Rhinos better. Maybe if you really double down on Zephyrim and bring Celestine with them they can really shine though, but S3 is a bit of a deal breaker even with the BR strat, and they'll probably outrun any Imagifier support that could give them S4.
Reroll wounds is a big deal and I think works out better than S4 I think.
55% vs 50% so yeah. Maybe he was hoping for S4 AND reroll to wound? Which would be bonkers good upgrade 75% vs T4 and 55% vs T5-T7 would be pretty sweet.
Well if you can get that Imagifier into position...
Well the zephyrim, Triumph, mortifiers, sanctum, Junith are all new and had no models in time. Mortifiers and Zephyrim are obviously the big absentees as both seem like great units on paper but obviously no one could use them in tournaments yet. I think the Sanctum and Triumph have a place but because they don't have models haven't seen much use. IMO the only model that would never be much use is Junith but I'm willing to be wrong on that, I've not tried a Martyred horde but I like the sound of it.
Also IH being incredibly OP just further enforces my point.
the top sisters list apparently having 30 zeraphim means this guy is either a time traveler or converting a few models is not as high of a barrier to entry as you are making out
davidgr33n wrote: Is Horde the way to go now for competitive Pure Sisters?
I've gone 12-3 with Mech Sisters so far. First loss was to a heavy eldar flyer list before I started running VH Exo's. The other two were to IH lists, so not much different than everyone else living in their shadow. I've been using lots of Seraphim as well, though my Zephyrim conversions haven't gotten to the table yet. All good things. The Dex has more than one competitive build, several certainly are more fun than spamming 15 girl zombie squads.
davidgr33n wrote: Is Horde the way to go now for competitive Pure Sisters?
Always was.
I disagree with this sentiment.
My games after this codex dropped were my first games since when I started where I didn't feature Mech Dominions, and I was fully mechanized until this edition.
I've always considered Sisters to be a mechanized infantry army. It logically follows from their permissible loadouts and characteristics. Even this edition until now, with transports being costed so high and basically useless for not-melee units, I still felt that a combination of high unit cost, low toughness, and short range translated into a general desire to mount up the units that mattered.
That said, after this codex, being on foot does look better. Dominions can't even use their transport anymore [a long fall from the days where they literally had to buy a dedicated transport that they could outflank in], and transports are hideously expensive to be handing them out to 9+ troop units. I'm thinking Brig+2x Batt with Exorcists, Pengines/Mortifiers, Seraphim, Zephyrim, and mounted Repentia. Which is a lot of unit diversity from the start of this edition where my list was 3 Outriders with Mech Dominions.
Sim-Life wrote: In fairness what we see at LVO isn't really a fair representation of the army since half the models aren't/weren't released in time.
Assuming guy didn't have existing army. I would expect sob players be veterans since 3 kits do not army make. And none of the new units without old models aren't essential.
Ih is just so broken not many can compete with them. Even vh will melt with 20 s7 -3 shots coming in and that's lesser worry with ih...
Well the zephyrim, Triumph, mortifiers, sanctum, Junith are all new and had no models in time. Mortifiers and Zephyrim are obviously the big absentees as both seem like great units on paper but obviously no one could use them in tournaments yet. I think the Sanctum and Triumph have a place but because they don't have models haven't seen much use. IMO the only model that would never be much use is Junith but I'm willing to be wrong on that, I've not tried a Martyred horde but I like the sound of it.
Also IH being incredibly OP just further enforces my point.
Zephyrim, definitiely.
That said, I don't think the Sanctum has a place, it's a fortification and also costs a detachment.
Saint Katherine's Triumph is also awkward and probably doesn't have a place, because the ease at which one can remove a T3 18W character is ridiculous. It would have had to have been something like a floating <9W casket with a group of infantry surrounding it that count as characters so long as they're within 2" of the casket like the Gun Crew property to see the table, I think. 18W T3 is really fragile.
Junith seems neat, but she's Our Martyred Lady, which is a major drawback for her, and she only affects Our Martyred Lady, so she won't play nice with Valorous Heart, Bloody Rose, or Argent Shroud.
Valorous Heart is cool, but I think it's dominance is almost exclusively because of the insane Marine meta. If the meta was different, the AP ignoring would be kind of useless and I think BR or AS would be top of the pile.
All harping on the useful/lessness of the Zerphyrim please remember that Bloody Rose Zephyrim have "Tear Them Down" at their disposal.
So the worst case (6+T), they're wounding on 5s and re-rolling all fails. One squad of 10 BR Zephyrim are pushing out something like 31 attacks, hitting about 20 times and wounding 10ish of them when it is all said and done? And with AP -4 due to BR, most things just won't get a save at all.
Sounds pretty good to me.
I am thinking of rolling with 2 squads of Zephyrim instead of 3, and putting in a 8 girl Repentia squad + Rhino for about the same points... and tossing in the Missionary + BR Canoness into it. I may go down to 7 Repentia and toss in a BR Imagifier as well, but that's down to the tweaking stuff phase.
Zephyrim sound fantastic and I'll be starting to convert mine as soon as this month's painting contest is over.
As for mech vs. foot/horde, I don't see it as black and white as Jancoran paints it... he's done well competitively, but there are plenty of TAC builds that will struggle with 8+ vehicles with invuln and FNP shenanigans and we can fill them with a nasty variety of surprises. I ran three Rhinos last game and the one that made it delivered Canoness, Imagifier, Preacher, and Celestians right to where they would do the most damage. If I'd walked them, they'd have needed a different Order to even get there, and BR damage output just seems too good to pass up.
Purifying Tempest wrote: All harping on the useful/lessness of the Zerphyrim please remember that Bloody Rose Zephyrim have "Tear Them Down" at their disposal.
So the worst case (6+T), they're wounding on 5s and re-rolling all fails. One squad of 10 BR Zephyrim are pushing out something like 31 attacks, hitting about 20 times and wounding 10ish of them when it is all said and done? And with AP -4 due to BR, most things just won't get a save at all.
Sounds pretty good to me.
I am thinking of rolling with 2 squads of Zephyrim instead of 3, and putting in a 8 girl Repentia squad + Rhino for about the same points... and tossing in the Missionary + BR Canoness into it. I may go down to 7 Repentia and toss in a BR Imagifier as well, but that's down to the tweaking stuff phase.
4 swings each with a missionary, also dont forget rerolling 1's
It's tough to compare Repentia and Zephyrim as they're made for different things.
If you want something dead NOW you take Repentia, they kill it and thats them dead. If you want to tie a unit up for a bit while killing it, or want to stab something after their initial combat, you take Zephyrim.
This is probably gaming the system, but if I take a detachment with Celestine, and another detachment with the Geminae, would the Geminae take up an elite slot in that detachment?
davidgr33n wrote: This is probably gaming the system, but if I take a detachment with Celestine, and another detachment with the Geminae, would the Geminae take up an elite slot in that detachment?
Yes. It's a bad idea though because for 15 more points a hospitaller or dialogus will be infinitely more useful than a geminae. Even a preacher at 30 points would be a far better investment.
davidgr33n wrote: This is probably gaming the system, but if I take a detachment with Celestine, and another detachment with the Geminae, would the Geminae take up an elite slot in that detachment?
Yes. It's a bad idea though because for 15 more points a hospitaller or dialogus will be infinitely more useful than a geminae. Even a preacher at 30 points would be a far better investment.
Take ERJACKs opinion on the Geminae with a grain of salt, he talks about them like they personally insulted his mother. If you want to take them, take them.
davidgr33n wrote: This is probably gaming the system, but if I take a detachment with Celestine, and another detachment with the Geminae, would the Geminae take up an elite slot in that detachment?
Yes. It's a bad idea though because for 15 more points a hospitaller or dialogus will be infinitely more useful than a geminae. Even a preacher at 30 points would be a far better investment.
Take ERJACKs opinion on the Geminae with a grain of salt, he talks about them like they personally insulted his mother. If you want to take them, take them.
Zeph is 17 pts. For 3 more I get a Gem with 2W 3A base and a character. Yes they don’t get buffs, but I can fill an Elite slot for 20 and when it dies free MD.
Plus it fits nicely into my Fly list (a brigade and vanguard with 30 Zephs and 18 Seraphim)
MacPhail wrote: Zephyrim sound fantastic and I'll be starting to convert mine as soon as this month's painting contest is over.
As for mech vs. foot/horde, I don't see it as black and white as Jancoran paints it... he's done well competitively, but there are plenty of TAC builds that will struggle with 8+ vehicles with invuln and FNP shenanigans and we can fill them with a nasty variety of surprises. I ran three Rhinos last game and the one that made it delivered Canoness, Imagifier, Preacher, and Celestians right to where they would do the most damage. If I'd walked them, they'd have needed a different Order to even get there, and BR damage output just seems too good to pass up.
I played mech before the change to beta codex snd it worked perfectly. Beta made it bad. New codex makes it middle of the road.
There are so many reasons for it. Metas being different over that time for one, but i dont think mech makes you "not win". I was 7-4 with mech. Problem was the margins of victory were just not good enough. If all youre doing is trying to win, mech will get ya there. pretty often. If youv wanna win tournaments, you need to dominate in points and mech probably wont.
So the frame of reference matters here. Competitively, mech isnt the play. But if you just wanna win, margins be damned, it can be done w mech. I never spoke differently on that broader point. Our discussion, I assume, has to do w tournament play.
Even in 4th and 5th edition, on foot (for the most part) was stronger. Armor was really good in that index tho. Loved it.
So Jancoran, I’ve been out of the game since beta and just over the past month picked back up with different builds. I was playing Immo spam before it was even a thing. Sadly those days are over. And btw I am a tournament player...
Question is, how do you play antitank? Exos? Inferno seraphs?
I no longer like melta Doms even in Repressors, and foot Rets seem too fragile. I’ve got a good list but my anti tank is lacking.
davidgr33n wrote:So Jancoran, I’ve been out of the game since beta and just over the past month picked back up with different builds. I was playing Immo spam before it was even a thing. Sadly those days are over. And btw I am a tournament player...
Question is, how do you play antitank? Exos? Inferno seraphs?
I no longer like melta Doms even in Repressors, and foot Rets seem too fragile. I’ve got a good list but my anti tank is lacking.
Help
I'm not Jancoran, but I do play competitively at a local level.
I've handled the tank threat with Exorcists, Repentia, Seraphim, and embedded meltaguns. It's not really as good or as capable as I'd like it to be though, since it doesn't meet my minimum bar of "delete a knight on turn 1" capability [only the Exorcists are in range turn 1].
Lammia wrote:That's a question people have trying to answer for themselves and the only sure answer is: not Dominions
I played allies the last two editions and I miss playing pure Sisters so giving it a go again. I just wish we had more tools. I know we shouldn’t compare but SM has more choices in just their HQ section than we do in our entire Codex lol
Oops, miscounted, we have 24 total choices and they have 23 HQ choices.
davidgr33n wrote: So Jancoran, I’ve been out of the game since beta and just over the past month picked back up with different builds. I was playing Immo spam before it was even a thing. Sadly those days are over. And btw I am a tournament player...
Question is, how do you play antitank? Exos? Inferno seraphs?
I no longer like melta Doms even in Repressors, and foot Rets seem too fragile. I’ve got a good list but my anti tank is lacking.
Help
Well im having an absolute happy dance on the graves of most armor, using exorcists+Hunter Killer tanks. Every squad has 3 meltaguns. I have a singular Multimelta retributor unit (Argent shroud) that does work and can usually hide and make hay. Frightening to fire 6 multimeltas, if you want to, from one squad, with 18" "juice range" using the strat. Essentially kills at will if you have points. 2d6 take the highest, plus 1 damage...and w miracle dice, canoness nearby,... I mean... KARTHOOM. And remember always that seraphim are taken largely for their ability to "get there" but w argent shroud you can do it turn one instead of 2.
Alternatives do exist. The Seraphim quad meltas is of course strong because you cannot alpha strike it dead. Extremely solid and worth taking because: Raven Guard are a thing. So if you were seeing a lot of first turn strikes (and who isnt?) Then Seraphim start looking really attractive. They are also attractive for a reason you cant see on the stat sheets: they are terrain proof. That means I'm not totally screwed when LVO decides to put jack shizl on the board like they did in the stream of Sisters vs. Iron Hands. That terrain was criminal. When the board joins forces w your opponent, you will love how little Seraphim care.
Obviously we have some seeeeerious killing power in sisters Repentia (bloody Rose). I mean nuclear level killing power there and generally just as "one use only" barring favorable terrain.
My solution to armor has been pretty consistent over the years: give out lots of hugs, and embrace the ideal of acceptable losses.
You can hug, and then walk out of combat w a unit using a strat which is equally great.
davidgr33n wrote: I played allies the last two editions and I miss playing pure Sisters so giving it a go again. I just wish we had more tools. I know we shouldn’t compare but SM has more choices in just their HQ section than we do in our entire Codex lol
Oops, miscounted, we have 24 total choices and they have 23 HQ choices.
How many marine choices are totally redundant? Or super niche models that barely see use? I don't feel that Sisters are really lacking anything now. We kill infantry easy. Exos make short work of armor, we have so many good melee options its a bit silly, you can build Sisters to be super difficult to kill if you want. The only thing we really lack is anti-air but a VH exo can down a plane pretty easily. More options would only ruin the pretty damn good internal balance the army has.
Sim-Life wrote: I don't feel that Sisters are really lacking anything now.
Jump pack canonesses, more than a single tank, named sororitas characters that aren't tied to the Order of Our Martyred Lady, a second generic HQ choice... I mean, I could go on and on about what Sisters are missing, let's not fool ourselves in to thinking that the list is somehow so complete that it is now unable to have meaningful additions. The book is good, but it's not absolutely perfect.
I feel like the pace of releases for, say, AdMech (another newish army) should give us hope. The core release gives us a diverse and playable force, and new units will continue to trickle out over the next few years. There was a lot of whining that AdMech had no transports... now they've got one, plus fliers and funky new cavalry. Surely a named character from each order is in the long range plans? I could also see a new line of Ministorum models, maybe throw militia back in the mix... a lot could happen down the line.
davidgr33n wrote: This is probably gaming the system, but if I take a detachment with Celestine, and another detachment with the Geminae, would the Geminae take up an elite slot in that detachment?
Yes. It's a bad idea though because for 15 more points a hospitaller or dialogus will be infinitely more useful than a geminae. Even a preacher at 30 points would be a far better investment.
Take ERJACKs opinion on the Geminae with a grain of salt, he talks about them like they personally insulted his mother. If you want to take them, take them.
ERJACK isn't the only one that thinks Geminae aren't worth the points. I've detailed their issues ad nauseum on B&C and most of the Geminae's issues break down to being a separate unit from Celestine and the problems that creates for them vs. their intended role. I'm of the opinion that I'd might take them if they were free, but I'd think long and hard about it first.
Sim-Life wrote: I don't feel that Sisters are really lacking anything now.
Jump pack canonesses, more than a single tank, named sororitas characters that aren't tied to the Order of Our Martyred Lady, a second generic HQ choice... I mean, I could go on and on about what Sisters are missing, let's not fool ourselves in to thinking that the list is somehow so complete that it is now unable to have meaningful additions. The book is good, but it's not absolutely perfect.
So much this.
* 5 named characters including Legends, two of which are Ministorum, a third is effectively sub-faction locked, the fourth is a worse smash captain for more points, and the fifth is a nice centerpiece but appears to be impractical to field.
* Only one generic HQ if you want to run pure Sisters in an era of Rule of 3, forcing you to take one of the special characters if you need a 4th HQ * a generic HQ that's 0-1 per detachment but may be required if you want to take more than one Conclave unit
* an army of mostly elite-choices, some of which are restricted to one per detachment unless you take some sort of priest
* one total troops choice
* a motor pool that really should have been expanded
* in order to bring Flyers (battlefield role), you must take an Air Wing detachment from an allied faction - thus losing Sacred Rites in doing so because no Flyers have the Adepta Sororitas or Adeptus Ministorum keywords, whereas pre-8th we had the ASF...
Now that's exaggeration. Might take them if free? That would mean they would have negative impact which is silly.
As it is there's utility to be had for fast flying cheapish unit to tag shooty unit into melee to prevent shooting. Also can be used to get md at will and in maelstrom mission card to get d3 vp if character dies.
Tad overpriced but might take if free is ridiculous claim
tneva82 wrote: Now that's exaggeration. Might take them if free? That would mean they would have negative impact which is silly.
As it is there's utility to be had for fast flying cheapish unit to tag shooty unit into melee to prevent shooting. Also can be used to get md at will and in maelstrom mission card to get d3 vp if character dies.
Tad overpriced but might take if free is ridiculous claim
They take up an elite slot something else can use. Sisters are limited in the number of detachments because of the Ro3, so players who are sticking with Sisters only might have to chose Gemini, or something more useful, despite not being free.
You have bare minimum slots to fill. More often 10 or 12. Assuming you don't have celestine. But really interested to see list where you have only brigade and more than 8 elites.
And 2-3 det's ain't that hard. Lot easier than filling 9+ slots.
davidgr33n wrote: This is probably gaming the system, but if I take a detachment with Celestine, and another detachment with the Geminae, would the Geminae take up an elite slot in that detachment?
Yes. It's a bad idea though because for 15 more points a hospitaller or dialogus will be infinitely more useful than a geminae. Even a preacher at 30 points would be a far better investment.
Take ERJACKs opinion on the Geminae with a grain of salt, he talks about them like they personally insulted his mother. If you want to take them, take them.
Zeph is 17 pts. For 3 more I get a Gem with 2W 3A base and a character. Yes they don’t get buffs, but I can fill an Elite slot for 20 and when it dies free MD.
Plus it fits nicely into my Fly list (a brigade and vanguard with 30 Zephs and 18 Seraphim)
They're not a Zephyrim without buffs, they're a worse Seraphim Superior without buffs. And even if they were a zephyrim, zephyrim without bloody rose would be several points overpriced.
Look at it this way, you can either pay 20 points for a 2 wound model(i.e. easy killpoint fodder) that does nothing except .5 damage to a space marine, or you could pay 10 more points for a 4 wound model that gives everything in 6" plus 1 attack. If he buffs 2 Zephyrim you'll get more use out of him than a Geminae superia. If you spend 5 more points than that, you can have a hospitaller which only needs to bring back 1 zephyrim to be more useful than a geminae and also gives you a miracle dice on death.
The Geminae superia accomplishes nothing and is actively detrimental in missions that reward victory points for killing units, characters, or itc missions where 'kill more' is a thing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: Now that's exaggeration. Might take them if free? That would mean they would have negative impact which is silly.
As it is there's utility to be had for fast flying cheapish unit to tag shooty unit into melee to prevent shooting. Also can be used to get md at will and in maelstrom mission card to get d3 vp if character dies.
Tad overpriced but might take if free is ridiculous claim
They DO often have a negative impact. They're a free victory point for your opponent in a lot of missions. Especially in a world where 1 eliminator can kill them from 36" out. Are they THAT bad in every mission? No. But if you're playing a game with kill more, kill a character, first blood, headhunters, maelstrom cards for your opponent that reward killing a character, etc, your opponent is starting the game with as many as 3 free victory points just because you brought a geminae with you.
Also, what unit could the geminae charge that will survive both overwatch AND melee? She dies to rhino with stormbolter.That's an imaginary scenario.
Geminae are Characters though so they're as easy to kill as you make them. If snipers are trying to plink Geminae off the board instead of Imagifiers or whatever then more power to them.
Inquisitor Hex, Zephyrim and Seraphim all come in from deep strike. The Geminae sometimes is close enough to lend support.
Hex can use the Terrify power to keep an opposing unit from shooting Overwatch.
I’m not happy with my ant-tank but I can’t think of anything else to do.
For anyone curious, magnetising the new Penitent Engine is easy enough. The pilots are easily interchangeable without modification, if you bore a hole where the arm peg is and hollow out the shoulder pad and file away about half the shoulder joint of the arm the magnets meet without looking weird and the flamers can be put on/taken off over over the magnets.
They can also be modeled with both feet on the ground as long as you don't put the hip pegs into their slots.
Sim-Life wrote: I don't feel that Sisters are really lacking anything now.
Jump pack canonesses, more than a single tank, named sororitas characters that aren't tied to the Order of Our Martyred Lady, a second generic HQ choice... I mean, I could go on and on about what Sisters are missing, let's not fool ourselves in to thinking that the list is somehow so complete that it is now unable to have meaningful additions. The book is good, but it's not absolutely perfect.
I would LOVE to see a Baal Predator/Deimos Predator Infernus type unit for sisters. Basically heavier armor with a magna melta or a flame storm cannon than an Immolator in order to have some maximum carnage and still very much keeping with the sisters play style of up close and personal combat. And naturally their love of over decoration. It would be a good in between for the long range exorcist and the transports.
Sim-Life wrote: Geminae are Characters though so they're as easy to kill as you make them. If snipers are trying to plink Geminae off the board instead of Imagifiers or whatever then more power to them.
Yeah. If opponent is stupid enough to waste hunting geminia instead of actually useful character and give me extra md feel free. As a matter of fact i'm not even worrying about that as i want him to shoot them.
Kill more is itc balance crap so whatever. First strike and if opponent can do that then either he's using eliminators and wasting them or you plain suck as there isn'" other out of los shooting snipers of worry. I want those 90 odd pts rather kill 20 pts character that is no loss rather than 45 pts whose death negates my order bonus entirely.
As soon as I convert one, the gemina will be an autoinclude in all my lists. She moves 12" and is a char for 20 points. In 2 missions she is automatically a victory point plus an MD. For 20 points, that is broken.
In the other ones, she is a cheap way to keep a backfield objective without being TFCed away.
I don't care about giving away free strike on her, I don't think that you ever have problems scoring that against sisters.
Sim-Life wrote: Geminae are Characters though so they're as easy to kill as you make them. If snipers are trying to plink Geminae off the board instead of Imagifiers or whatever then more power to them.
Yeah. If opponent is stupid enough to waste hunting geminia instead of actually useful character and give me extra md feel free. As a matter of fact i'm not even worrying about that as i want him to shoot them.
Kill more is itc balance crap so whatever. First strike and if opponent can do that then either he's using eliminators and wasting them or you plain suck as there isn'" other out of los shooting snipers of worry. I want those 90 odd pts rather kill 20 pts character that is no loss rather than 45 pts whose death negates my order bonus entirely.
tneva82 wrote: Now that's exaggeration. Might take them if free? That would mean they would have negative impact which is silly.
As it is there's utility to be had for fast flying cheapish unit to tag shooty unit into melee to prevent shooting. Also can be used to get md at will and in maelstrom mission card to get d3 vp if character dies.
Tad overpriced but might take if free is ridiculous claim
They take up an elite slot something else can use. Sisters are limited in the number of detachments because of the Ro3, so players who are sticking with Sisters only might have to chose Gemini, or something more useful, despite not being free.
Sort of. 1 Missionary per detach, +1 Canoness per detach, +1 Celestine is enough to fill out the HQ req for a Brigade and 2 Battalions. I don't think you could go for more.
Now do you actually want those extra missionaries? Probably not.
As for the viability of Geminae Superia: maybe if I wanted to fill an elite slot.
tneva82 wrote: Now that's exaggeration. Might take them if free? That would mean they would have negative impact which is silly.
As it is there's utility to be had for fast flying cheapish unit to tag shooty unit into melee to prevent shooting. Also can be used to get md at will and in maelstrom mission card to get d3 vp if character dies.
Tad overpriced but might take if free is ridiculous claim
They take up an elite slot something else can use. Sisters are limited in the number of detachments because of the Ro3, so players who are sticking with Sisters only might have to chose Gemini, or something more useful, despite not being free.
Sort of. 1 Missionary per detach, +1 Canoness per detach, +1 Celestine is enough to fill out the HQ req for a Brigade and 2 Battalions. I don't think you could go for more.
Now do you actually want those extra missionaries? Probably not.
As for the viability of Geminae Superia: maybe if I wanted to fill an elite slot.
Oh I specifically said for people who wanted sister only lists. It's do able with redundant missionaries and with [no order] special characters.
Even if you have silly artifiical restrictions 3 canoness+celestine. Hey presto you have 12 elite slots. Or 2 canoness+celestine and 8. Show army list with 9+ elite slots you actually use.
If you only run 1 battalion(and frankly even 7 elite slots is tricky to fill) you have LOT bigger issues than geminie. Your army will suck anyway from the get-go and doesn't matter if geminie would be -20 pts rather than 20 pts.
tneva82 wrote: Even if you have silly artifiical restrictions 3 canoness+celestine. Hey presto you have 12 elite slots. Or 2 canoness+celestine and 8. Show army list with 9+ elite slots you actually use.
If you only run 1 battalion(and frankly even 7 elite slots is tricky to fill) you have LOT bigger issues than geminie. Your army will suck anyway from the get-go and doesn't matter if geminie would be -20 pts rather than 20 pts.
It's more relevant in Brigade + Batallion w/toys + fortification or something similar
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just threw together a example list and now I kinda want to try it...
With brigade and battalion you are running 18 elite slots...So I'm not sure what gemine taking elite slots is such an issue then. I REALLY struggle to come up with 18 elite slots I could use for gemini taking elite slot being an issue. And yours has 7. And if you have just 1 battalion at which point that elite slot would be too much you have way, way, WAY bigger issues. 1 battalion list will lose anyway.
tneva82 wrote: With brigade and battalion you are running 18 elite slots...So I'm not sure what gemine taking elite slots is such an issue then. I REALLY struggle to come up with 18 elite slots I could use for gemini taking elite slot being an issue. And yours has 7. And if you have just 1 battalion at which point that elite slot would be too much you have way, way, WAY bigger issues. 1 battalion list will lose anyway.
Wait what are we debating? I thought we were about to agree that only point of taking one of them is that it *fills* a spot for only 20 points
tneva82 wrote: With brigade and battalion you are running 18 elite slots...So I'm not sure what gemine taking elite slots is such an issue then. I REALLY struggle to come up with 18 elite slots I could use for gemini taking elite slot being an issue. And yours has 7. And if you have just 1 battalion at which point that elite slot would be too much you have way, way, WAY bigger issues. 1 battalion list will lose anyway.
Wait what are we debating? I thought we were about to agree that only point of taking one of them is that it *fills* a spot for only 20 points
Yep. In 8th edition, where filling slots gives you CP, a unit not taking a slot is a drawback, not an advantage.
tneva82 wrote: With brigade and battalion you are running 18 elite slots...So I'm not sure what gemine taking elite slots is such an issue then. I REALLY struggle to come up with 18 elite slots I could use for gemini taking elite slot being an issue. And yours has 7. And if you have just 1 battalion at which point that elite slot would be too much you have way, way, WAY bigger issues. 1 battalion list will lose anyway.
Wait what are we debating? I thought we were about to agree that only point of taking one of them is that it *fills* a spot for only 20 points
I was told they are so bad they might not even be taken were they free...Because they take elite slot that are supposedly so precious
tneva82 wrote: With brigade and battalion you are running 18 elite slots...So I'm not sure what gemine taking elite slots is such an issue then. I REALLY struggle to come up with 18 elite slots I could use for gemini taking elite slot being an issue. And yours has 7. And if you have just 1 battalion at which point that elite slot would be too much you have way, way, WAY bigger issues. 1 battalion list will lose anyway.
Wait what are we debating? I thought we were about to agree that only point of taking one of them is that it *fills* a spot for only 20 points
Yep. In 8th edition, where filling slots gives you CP, a unit not taking a slot is a drawback, not an advantage.
elite slots don't give you much in terms of CP though...You want troops
tneva82 wrote: With brigade and battalion you are running 18 elite slots...So I'm not sure what gemine taking elite slots is such an issue then. I REALLY struggle to come up with 18 elite slots I could use for gemini taking elite slot being an issue. And yours has 7. And if you have just 1 battalion at which point that elite slot would be too much you have way, way, WAY bigger issues. 1 battalion list will lose anyway.
Wait what are we debating? I thought we were about to agree that only point of taking one of them is that it *fills* a spot for only 20 points
I was told they are so bad they might not even be taken were they free...Because they take elite slot that are supposedly so precious
People wouldn't take them because in Open War/Maelstrom/ITC they make it easier for your opponent to win while not doing much of anything to help you win
tneva82 wrote: With brigade and battalion you are running 18 elite slots...So I'm not sure what gemine taking elite slots is such an issue then. I REALLY struggle to come up with 18 elite slots I could use for gemini taking elite slot being an issue. And yours has 7. And if you have just 1 battalion at which point that elite slot would be too much you have way, way, WAY bigger issues. 1 battalion list will lose anyway.
Wait what are we debating? I thought we were about to agree that only point of taking one of them is that it *fills* a spot for only 20 points
I was told they are so bad they might not even be taken were they free...Because they take elite slot that are supposedly so precious
People wouldn't take them because in Open War/Maelstrom/ITC they make it easier for your opponent to win while not doing much of anything to help you win
All of those are fairly niche situations though. ITC isn't how most people play so centering a discussion in a tactics thread about it without clarifying that you're refering explicitly to an ITC rule is probably unwise and also not relevant to a lot of people. Likewise the opponent won't always have a "kill character" objective in Maelstrom.
If they don't have them chuck those Geminae down the field and get them martyred for MD, resurrect with Celestine if you have her and repeat. If they do have it hide them away in terrain. Its not rocket science.
tneva82 wrote: With brigade and battalion you are running 18 elite slots...So I'm not sure what gemine taking elite slots is such an issue then. I REALLY struggle to come up with 18 elite slots I could use for gemini taking elite slot being an issue. And yours has 7. And if you have just 1 battalion at which point that elite slot would be too much you have way, way, WAY bigger issues. 1 battalion list will lose anyway.
Wait what are we debating? I thought we were about to agree that only point of taking one of them is that it *fills* a spot for only 20 points
I was told they are so bad they might not even be taken were they free...Because they take elite slot that are supposedly so precious
People wouldn't take them because in Open War/Maelstrom/ITC they make it easier for your opponent to win while not doing much of anything to help you win
Like how? ITC sure but then again ITC is unofficial house rules only popular in america so whatever. In maelstrom opponent isn't likely to have that assasinate card that helps, you have easy time protecting them(seriously only eliminators have any ease killing them and even then they are limited to out of los shooting). In fact maelstrom helps them as you can easily kill them off for 2 vp yourself.
You meanwhile can use them to guard celestine, tag enemy shooters to prevent shooters...they are cheap, fast, hard to kill characters you can kill off when needed
That is a really good list, Lammia! I was surprised to see that all of that actually fit into a 2,000-points list. Tell us how it works for you!
Two points:
1.: I'm glad to see that someone else is using 2x4 Repentia. It just seems so much better than 1x8, seeing as you gain an extra MD for the death of both squads and that obviously two squads are more difficult to remove than one, e.g. through overwatch fire. But how do you think two small squads will impact the effectiveness of stratagems, be it Final Redemption, Desperate for Redemption, Holy Rage or any other stratagem?
2.: One thing I haven't seen people do, however, is outfit their BSS with a single combi-melta on the Superiors, instead of a meltagun on a regular sister. For only 1 extra point you basically gain an additional ablative wound for the melta (and an additional bolter, for what it's worth). Whenever I want cheap BSS, I just take 5 with a combi-melta on the Superior, maybe with a Simulacrum for the guaranteed chance to use a MD on them. That's what, 60/65 points?
All of those are fairly niche situations though. ITC isn't how most people play .
Um. I mean... I think that most competitive play now is basically ITC and its slight variants.
The number of players in ITC events increased by a whopping 40% this year and 30% the year before. So not only is it sort of the gold standard for competitive play, the hobby itself is also growing tremendously in participation.
But sure, there are tons of missions you can play, and not all of them are ITC missions. That being said, people like to practice FOR ITC events which makes it very likely that people will want to play them. I am a T.O. of many many events every year and can tell you that I incorportae Non-ITC missions into the ITC events I run for variety, That is the exception to the rule though.
All of those are fairly niche situations though. ITC isn't how most people play .
Um. I mean... I think that most competitive play now is basically ITC and its slight variants.
The number of players in ITC events increased by a whopping 40% this year and 30% the year before. So not only is it sort of the gold standard for competitive play, the hobby itself is also growing tremendously in participation.
But sure, there are tons of missions you can play, and not all of them are ITC missions. That being said, people like to practice FOR ITC events which makes it very likely that people will want to play them. I am a T.O. of many many events every year and can tell you that I incorportae Non-ITC missions into the ITC events I run for variety, That is the exception to the rule though.
ITC is still only an American thing, and lately dominated by Marines because the ITC secondaries punish army builds in a pretty abusive way, and nobody denies kill secondaries as easily as Marines can.
Assuming that everybody plays ITC so we can make sweeping statements about the quality of units in this game is a deeply flawed approach.
All we're saying is be clearer when you pass judgment. "It gives up ITC secondaries easily" grounds your argument so that those of us that despise ITC and avoid playing that house rule gak can disregard your comments about the sisters as Heresy, like the Emperor fully fething intended.
And yet you agreed with my assessment of the Geminae on B&C a few weeks ago.
Neutral analysis, single Zephyrim vs a single Geminae over 10,000 simulations. No order convictions, just base rules. Also assuming Geminae are 20ppm until we see something official from GW on CA2019 vs C:AS
Same Move, WS, BS, S, T, and armor save
Geminae:
6++, improved to 4++ if within 6" of Celestine (+160 pts, restricted to being within 6" of Celestine)
+1W
+1A
A bodyguard rule of debatable benefit (+160 pts, restricted to being within 3" of Celestine)
Zephyrim:
-3PPM (+1PPM if CA2019 is accurate)
5++ without the presence of any other unit, improved to 4++ if within 6" of Celestine or a warlord with the Indomitable Belief warlord tait
May re-roll failed to-wound rolls in melee
Can deep strike
Superior may be given the ability to let friendly <Order> units (so not Celestine or Geminae) within 6" re-roll charge rolls for +5 points
In melee combat vs T4, 3+
Geminae Superiae, no Sacred Rites or Miracle dice
-54.46% chance of dealing 0 damage in combat against a MEQ
-36.7% chance of inflicting an unsaved wound
-8.24% chance of dealing two unsaved wounds
-0.6% chance of dealing three unsaved wounds
Zephyrim (not Zephyrim Superior), no Order, Miracle dice, or Sacred Rites
-48.36% chance of dealing 0 damage in combat against a MEQ
-42.47% chance of dealing an unsaved wound
-9.17% chance of dealing two unsaved wounds
-------------------
Both Geminae vs a Zephyrim and Zephyrim Superior
2 Geminae Superia
-29.49% chance of dealing 0 damage
-39.96% chance of dealing 1 unsaved wound
-23.10% chance of dealing 2 unsaved wounds
-6.73% chance of dealing 3 unsaved wounds
-1.16% chance of dealing 4 unsaved wounds
-0.13% chance of dealing 5 unsaved wounds
-0.00 chance of dealing 6 unsaved wounds
Zephyrim + Zephyrim Superior
-15.17% chance of dealing 0 wounds
-35.52% chance of dealing 1 unsaved wound
-31.27% chance of dealing 2 unsaved wounds
-14.26% chance of dealing 3 unsaved wounds
-02.96% chance of dealing 4 unsaved wounds
-00.28% chance of dealing 5 unsaved wounds
Incapable of dealing 6 due to not enough attacks (without Rites, conviction, etc)
Two Zephyrim look superior to taking either or both Geminae. Sure, you might be able to bring one back if they stay within 3" of Celestine and they can protect her on a 2+, but Zephyrim are more survivable on their own than Geminae are, shoehorning them to Celestine for their 4++ and bringing back the other problems Geminae have:
* their inability to advance at the same pace as Celestine (and visa versa), forcing one or the other to move slower than you'd like to keep within 3/6" for various other rules
* their inability to charge with Celestine, meaning they might charge something they need her support with OR Celestine charging something she needs their support with as chaff
* the fact that if one uses Miracle dice in a phase, the other can't use them in the same phase (assuming we can actually use more than one die
People want them to be part of her unit because it removes most of the problems with the models for being her "bodyguards".
* You can just assign wounds to them
* Healing tears can bring one back after both are dead (it can't even do that now)
* They charge together
* They advance together
* They fight together
* They perform AoF together
* They had character status before, both in 7E and in the Index
The "benefits" of them being a separate unit (leadership because with penalties it's possible to make the unit take a test, independence) don't exist when they're functionally worse than Zeraphim before you even consider Sacred Rites and Order Convictions, the latter of which Geminae don't have access to.
As for not taking them, even if they're free, the argument against them is opportunity costs:
Opportunity cost. That 40 points could be going to pretty much anything else, even a bare bones Battle Sister squad. At 32 points, if CA2019 is accurate, the points could be going toward a different character that buffs multiple units or just beefing up a unit or three in terms of model count/wargear.
Quite honestly? Given their current state I'm not even certain I'd take Geminae if they were free. I'd think about it for a moment, but then realize it's more ways for my opponent to get VP in a competitive situation/a squad that really isn't going to be doing anything but dying if they're successful in protecting Celestine and I want my models to actually feel useful beyond chaff
Oh, and before anyone brings up distraction-fexes when talking about the Geminae (because my gut says someone will), there's a difference:
Distraction Carnifexes are still a threat on their own, but meant to pull you away from the real threat. The Wonder Twins were really only a threat while they benefited from being in the same unit as Celestine
TL;DR, Geminae were gutted the moment they were pulled from being in the same unit as Celestine. If GW returned them to her unit, I'd seriously consider taking them provided I had the 32/40 points to spare because the opportunity cost would be worth the investment.
All of those are fairly niche situations though. ITC isn't how most people play .
Um. I mean... I think that most competitive play now is basically ITC and its slight variants.
The number of players in ITC events increased by a whopping 40% this year and 30% the year before. So not only is it sort of the gold standard for competitive play, the hobby itself is also growing tremendously in participation.
But sure, there are tons of missions you can play, and not all of them are ITC missions. That being said, people like to practice FOR ITC events which makes it very likely that people will want to play them. I am a T.O. of many many events every year and can tell you that I incorportae Non-ITC missions into the ITC events I run for variety, That is the exception to the rule though.
ITC is still only an American thing, and lately dominated by Marines because the ITC secondaries punish army builds in a pretty abusive way, and nobody denies kill secondaries as easily as Marines can.
Assuming that everybody plays ITC so we can make sweeping statements about the quality of units in this game is a deeply flawed approach.
All we're saying is be clearer when you pass judgment. "It gives up ITC secondaries easily" grounds your argument so that those of us that despise ITC and avoid playing that house rule gak can disregard your comments about the sisters as Heresy, like the Emperor fully fething intended.
The vast majority of competitive players are ITCish. Americans are doing the ITC thing, tis true.
I don't really see the Marines dominating BECAUSE it's the ITC. That's just not accurate. They are dominating because they are dominant.
Marine armies are clearing tables. So no matter the version you play, hard to hold an objective in a book mission when you're mostly dead and cut off.
All of those are fairly niche situations though. ITC isn't how most people play .
Um. I mean... I think that most competitive play now is basically ITC and its slight variants.
The number of players in ITC events increased by a whopping 40% this year and 30% the year before. So not only is it sort of the gold standard for competitive play, the hobby itself is also growing tremendously in participation.
But sure, there are tons of missions you can play, and not all of them are ITC missions. That being said, people like to practice FOR ITC events which makes it very likely that people will want to play them. I am a T.O. of many many events every year and can tell you that I incorportae Non-ITC missions into the ITC events I run for variety, That is the exception to the rule though.
Right. America is only place in the world where competive games happen. All games in uk are just casual open games. No competive game in sight.
Lol. Then again this from guy who thinks flayed ones(using illegal things) and deathmarks pre ca were awesome units. Credibility: zero.
*shrug* If they won't let me play my Sisters list because "rule of three, yo!" and I only have one generic and no named characters that aren't tied to a different order, then frankly the tournament is trash, the tournament organizer is a trash-tier human being, and I have no desire to participate in their trashy tournament.
But you know, this isn't a new problem, considering it's a problem that Mechanicus faced for a while, too, so if you haven't adjusted your rules yet you're a disgrace of a tournament organizer.
That’s pretty excessive. They’re following rules that are suggested for tournament play-if you don’t like them, don’t play in them, but don’t call others trash for that.
No it's not. If you're the one putting rules out for your tournament, you have every right to adjust the rules when the rules prove themselves to be stupid. Stubbornly refusing to do so and saying "them's the rules, yo" puts you on the same level as Home-Owner's Association muttering "it's the rules" after they fine the gak out of an old man for not being able to mow his lawn fast enough. Your rules need to be flexible and well thought out, not just shove the first ruleset you see and then shove your head in to the sand shouting "nanananana I can't hear you".
You might be right if the limitation made your faction unplayable, but it doesn't even come close. Three Canonesses is enough for either a Bridage or a Battalion and 1 HQ detachment. That doesn't even take not account there is a second generic HQ available to you, even if you don't want to use it.
Therefore, leaving the Rule of 3 in Place for a 2K Tournament doesn't make them trash. It just means you want them to cater their tournament rules to your specific army list. Not to be mean, but that reflects worst on you then them.
The second generic Adepta Sororitas being what, exactly? I'm pretty sure the ones listed aside from the Canoness-- Celestine, Judith, and the Triumph-- are all one per army to my knowledge.
And yes, I want them to be able to adapt to different circumstances. My future 2k list has no problems meeting those requirements (having a Brigade as the sole detachment), but the requirements are really dumb when you hold it as some kind of unbendable, inflexible, inviolable law.
I’m not saying it’s a good rule-but insulting others for using rules provided to them is not a good attitude to have.
You’re free to run your own tournament without the rule of three or with a modified version of it, but if you keep the same attitude, I doubt anyone would enjoy it no matter how good your houserules are.
No it's not. If you're the one putting rules out for your tournament, you have every right to adjust the rules when the rules prove themselves to be stupid. Stubbornly refusing to do so and saying "them's the rules, yo" puts you on the same level as Home-Owner's Association muttering "it's the rules" after they fine the gak out of an old man for not being able to mow his lawn fast enough. Your rules need to be flexible and well thought out, not just shove the first ruleset you see and then shove your head in to the sand shouting "nanananana I can't hear you".
I usually don’t chime in on these discussions, but the ITC tournament rules are pretty much a worldwide set of rules played by literally thousands. Even non-ITC tournaments use them to a great degree because of their fairness and ease of use. Most competitive tournaments in the US and now UK use the ITC rules.
JNAProductions wrote: I’m not saying it’s a good rule-but insulting others for using rules provided to them is not a good attitude to have.
An explicitly optional suggestion which is designed as a clunky tool in order to fix the problem of certain kinds of powergaming, but when applied without second thought, hinders a lot of creativity in otherwise non-powergaming lists. And furthermore does not cope well in many army lists where the selection of units are quite limited (Sisters for example would only ever be able to have six fast attack units, period, for example). It was a quickfix, and a quickfix that GW no longer even really pushes.
If you prefer, I can use the terms "uncreative", "lazy", "dull", "slovenly"... either way, it's a dumb mindset.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ironically enough it's not my Sisters list that the rule would hinder, but my BA list. Because apparently my terminators are so overpowered that I can't be allowed to have an army focused around them.
Melissia wrote: The second generic Adepta Sororitas being what, exactly? I'm pretty sure the ones listed aside from the Canoness-- Celestine, Judith, and the Triumph-- are all one per army to my knowledge.
And yes, I want them to be able to adapt to different circumstances. My future 2k list has no problems meeting those requirements (having a Brigade as the sole detachment), but the requirements are really dumb when you hold it as some kind of unbendable, inflexible, inviolable law.
Your choice to not use Missionaries in your army, a valid choice for an Adepta Sororitas detachment, is not the tournament organizers problem any more than a Durkari player who only want to play exclusively one aspect of their army. That also leave them with one generic HQ choice.
Your thematic choices within the confines of your Codex should not dictate the rules for a tournament.
If it's 3 per detachment take multiple detachments, if it's 3 per army than yeah it could be an issue but as others have said no army in existence right now is "invalid" because you can't take 9 of the same unit in a detachment.
Melissia wrote: *shrug* If they won't let me play my Sisters list because "rule of three, yo!" and I only have one generic and no named characters that aren't tied to a different order, then frankly the tournament is trash, the tournament organizer is a trash-tier human being, and I have no desire to participate in their trashy tournament.
But you know, this isn't a new problem, considering it's a problem that Mechanicus faced for a while, too, so if you haven't adjusted your rules yet you're a disgrace of a tournament organizer.
Rule of 3 is a GW thing. So.
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jivardi wrote: Is the rule of "3" per detachment or per army?
If it's 3 per detachment take multiple detachments, if it's 3 per army than yeah it could be an issue but as others have said no army in existence right now is "invalid" because you can't take 9 of the same unit in a detachment.
jivardi wrote: Is the rule of "3" per detachment or per army?
If it's 3 per detachment take multiple detachments, if it's 3 per army than yeah it could be an issue but as others have said no army in existence right now is "invalid" because you can't take 9 of the same unit in a detachment.
The suggested rule scales based on army size.
So at 1000 points, you'd have 2 Canonesses, 2 Missionaries, Taddeus, Junith, Celestine and a Triumph to choose from.
At 2000 points (most common) you'd have 3 Canonesses, 3 Missionaries, Taddeus, Junith, Celestine and a Triumph.
At 3000 points, you'd have 4 Canonesses, 4 Missionaries, Taddeus, Junith, Celestine and a Triumph.
Because of the scaling, it really only prevents exceptionally hard skews.
Only adding 2 characters per 1,000 would start being more of a limit at 4000+ points, but at that point it tends to be more "bring what you have" and you'd probably be adding Uriah and Kyrinov back into the mix too.
No it's not. It's a "suggested house rule" that GW itself doesn't even push any more. It's similar to the DnD 5th edition "Flanking" optional rule, which I've seen players throw a fit over DMs choosing not to use it, heh.
Right. America is only place in the world where competive games happen. All games in uk are just casual open games. No competive game in sight.
Lol. Then again this from guy who thinks flayed ones(using illegal things) and deathmarks pre ca were awesome units. Credibility: zero.
Did...someone ever say it was the only place competitive 40k existed. Never heard anyone say it. Maelstrom as competitive got mentioned though. So that was fun.
In other news, Europeans also play ITC. Shocking. I know.
That aside, I proved myself in competitive play. With this army. I have the proof I need to back what I say up. You being a jerk wont change that.
You misquoting me flat out on deathmarks, and trying to PRETEND like I was "wrong" about flayed ones is your right. Its just false.
The scoreboard never lies. Opinions are great. Results are better.
No it's not. It's a "suggested house rule" that GW itself doesn't even push any more. It's similar to the DnD 5th edition "Flanking" optional rule, which I've seen players throw a fit over DMs choosing not to use it, heh.
Umm...no. its literally in the BIG FAQ. Matched Play. Its not an ITC thing. Its a matched play thing. So. Yeah.
Right. America is only place in the world where competive games happen. All games in uk are just casual open games. No competive game in sight.
Lol. Then again this from guy who thinks flayed ones(using illegal things) and deathmarks pre ca were awesome units. Credibility: zero.
Did...someone ever say it was the only place competitive 40k existed. Never heard anyone say it. Maelstrom as competitive got mentioned though. So that was fun.
In other news, Europeans also play ITC. Shocking. I know.
That aside, I proved myself in competitive play. With this army. I have the proof I need to back what I say up. You being a jerk wont change that.
You misquoting me flat out on deathmarks, and trying to PRETEND like I was "wrong" about flayed ones is your right. Its just false.
The scoreboard never lies. Opinions are great. Results are better.
You had them at 4 attacks. Ignoring everything else, that’s just flat out wrong.
As an optional rule that you may or may not want to implement for ranked play.
I quote:
Games Workshop wrote:Of course, if you are organising such an event, you should feel free to modify these guidelines to better suit your event’s own needs, schedule, etc.
In other words: "This is just an optional house rule we made to try to quickly fix the problem of spamming super powerful units, change it to suit your needs."
But this is really getting off topic at this point, and I feel I've proved my point. So I'm more interested in the Legends discussion at this point.
I'll mostly be using Kyrinov as a generic Missionary (already cleared the substitution with my local TO) - but I do look forward to bonking Primaris Marines with the giant mace when I do the opportunity.
alextroy wrote: Your thematic choices within the confines of your Codex should not dictate the rules for a tournament.
A tournament having gakky, unnecessary, and poorly balanced house rules that make me unable to play my list is well worthy of criticism.
You go up against 11 nightspinners then.
Or 60 eliminators.
I'm not a big fan of the rule of 3 either, but GW has been writing their book with it in mind for 2ish years now and has officially given up trying to not to make busted spammable units.
legend was created fdor roughly the same reasons ro3 was, to prevent ass hats from spamming OP units, Ala IH Relic Chaplain Dreads. Which was a literal thing until ITC stepped in and stated you will be disqualified if you use this( Not in so many words)
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: legend was created fdor roughly the same reasons ro3 was, to prevent ass hats from spamming OP units, Ala IH Relic Chaplain Dreads. Which was a literal thing until ITC stepped in and stated you will be disqualified if you use this( Not in so many words)
umm no thats not the case at all. For a start chaplain dreads aren't legends.
Legends is just a catagory for things where the mini's are no longer produced by GW, and thus not play tested for, but they've got a rules repository for so you can keep using them.
Anybody thinking of using the sanctum in their games?
In an infantry only VH list it might be competitive to place 3 units of melta Rets on a placable terrain for 2+ with a Stoic Imagifier for the ignores (1 and 2) AP, plus maybe a Canoness with Indomitable Belief for a 5++ and reroll 1s. That would make them 2+/5++/6+++.
And the sanctum gives 1 extra MD per turn. The Ld boost is meh but can only help.
davidgr33n wrote: Anybody thinking of using the sanctum in their games?
In an infantry only VH list it might be competitive to place 3 units of melta Rets on a placable terrain for 2+ with a Stoic Imagifier for the ignores (1 and 2) AP, plus maybe a Canoness with Indomitable Belief for a 5++ and reroll 1s. That would make them 2+/5++/6+++.
And the sanctum gives 1 extra MD per turn. The Ld boost is meh but can only help.
Sanctum is a great option. Best terrain piece in the game. Amazing for VH especiall.
Also take Celestine in that setup so even if they are AP-3 they still bounce off the 4++.
davidgr33n wrote: Anybody thinking of using the sanctum in their games?
In an infantry only VH list it might be competitive to place 3 units of melta Rets on a placable terrain for 2+ with a Stoic Imagifier for the ignores (1 and 2) AP, plus maybe a Canoness with Indomitable Belief for a 5++ and reroll 1s. That would make them 2+/5++/6+++.
And the sanctum gives 1 extra MD per turn. The Ld boost is meh but can only help.
Sanctum is a great option. Best terrain piece in the game. Amazing for VH especiall.
Also take Celestine in that setup so even if they are AP-3 they still bounce off the 4++.
I’ve considered Celestine in the list but just to keep her there as a buff seems pricey.
Another benefit is on the top floor no dreads or mechs can get to them.
That is a really good list, Lammia! I was surprised to see that all of that actually fit into a 2,000-points list. Tell us how it works for you!
Two points:
1.: I'm glad to see that someone else is using 2x4 Repentia. It just seems so much better than 1x8, seeing as you gain an extra MD for the death of both squads and that obviously two squads are more difficult to remove than one, e.g. through overwatch fire. But how do you think two small squads will impact the effectiveness of stratagems, be it Final Redemption, Desperate for Redemption, Holy Rage or any other stratagem?
2.: One thing I haven't seen people do, however, is outfit their BSS with a single combi-melta on the Superiors, instead of a meltagun on a regular sister. For only 1 extra point you basically gain an additional ablative wound for the melta (and an additional bolter, for what it's worth). Whenever I want cheap BSS, I just take 5 with a combi-melta on the Superior, maybe with a Simulacrum for the guaranteed chance to use a MD on them. That's what, 60/65 points?
Repentia don't live long enough to use Desperate for Redemption in my experience and the need for Holy Rage is theoretically replaced by the Rhino and the charge rerolls. The usefulness of Final Redemption takes a hit, but it's more 'amusing' than 'impactful' at the best of times?
Combi-meltas are probably the better way to go but the idea was to follow general design ideas and still have the Geminae Superia offer something in 'being cheap'.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, I just threw it together. Two points is a Storm Bolter somewhere and the Superiors don't have a Chainsword...
alextroy wrote: You might be right if the limitation made your faction unplayable, but it doesn't even come close. Three Canonesses is enough for either a Bridage or a Battalion and 1 HQ detachment. That doesn't even take not account there is a second generic HQ available to you, even if you don't want to use it.
Therefore, leaving the Rule of 3 in Place for a 2K Tournament doesn't make them trash. It just means you want them to cater their tournament rules to your specific army list. Not to be mean, but that reflects worst on you then them.
Actually, the rule of X is garbage for two reasons.
1. most units aren't problematic, but rather than fix the problematic units GW ham fisted this "Rule of X" for tournament play that is blanket to everything that isn't a DT or troops choice. Even though it's a suggestion for matched play, you know as well as I do that TO's automatically take these suggested rules as gospel. Legends is going to be like that as well because, let's face it, is a canoness with a combi-weapon they've been armed with for 20+ years or a superior with a storm bolter really that unbalancing?
2. Rule of X doesn't address the fact there's something like ten different datasheets for "Space Marine Captain", each of which a player is permitted X of while armies like Dark Eldar, Sisters, and Harlequins have at most 2-3 generic HQs and/or units for other slots total.
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jivardi wrote: Is the rule of "3" per detachment or per army?
If it's 3 per detachment take multiple detachments, if it's 3 per army than yeah it could be an issue but as others have said no army in existence right now is "invalid" because you can't take 9 of the same unit in a detachment.
At 1000 points or lower, a player is permitted at most 2 of each data sheet in their entire army that is neither a Troops choice nor has the Dedicated Transport role.
For every band of 1000 points above that, the maximum increases by 1.
It's called Rule of 3 because most games, especially competitive, run 1500-2000 points, which limits players to 3 of each data sheet.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: legend was created fdor roughly the same reasons ro3 was, to prevent ass hats from spamming OP units, Ala IH Relic Chaplain Dreads. Which was a literal thing until ITC stepped in and stated you will be disqualified if you use this( Not in so many words)
Chaplain Dreads are Forgeworld, not Legends, meaning they're not restricted from tournaments that ban Legends units.
alextroy wrote: You might be right if the limitation made your faction unplayable, but it doesn't even come close. Three Canonesses is enough for either a Bridage or a Battalion and 1 HQ detachment. That doesn't even take not account there is a second generic HQ available to you, even if you don't want to use it.
Therefore, leaving the Rule of 3 in Place for a 2K Tournament doesn't make them trash. It just means you want them to cater their tournament rules to your specific army list. Not to be mean, but that reflects worst on you then them.
Actually, the rule of X is garbage for two reasons.
1. most units aren't problematic, but rather than fix the problematic units GW ham fisted this "Rule of X" for tournament play that is blanket to everything that isn't a DT or troops choice. Even though it's a suggestion for matched play, you know as well as I do that TO's automatically take these suggested rules as gospel. Legends is going to be like that as well because, let's face it, is a canoness with a combi-weapon they've been armed with for 20+ years or a superior with a storm bolter really that unbalancing?
2. Rule of X doesn't address the fact there's something like ten different datasheets for "Space Marine Captain", each of which a player is permitted X of while armies like Dark Eldar, Sisters, and Harlequins have at most 2-3 generic HQs and/or units for other slots total.
And yet I don't think I've ever seen a Space Marine Captain spam list. They could definitely improve the rule by adding a number of Keywords for units that count as the same think, much like they did with the various Chaos Daemon Princes, but that doesn't mean the rule does fulfill it's purpose successfully.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: legend was created fdor roughly the same reasons ro3 was, to prevent ass hats from spamming OP units, Ala IH Relic Chaplain Dreads. Which was a literal thing until ITC stepped in and stated you will be disqualified if you use this( Not in so many words)
Chaplain Dreads are Forgeworld, not Legends, meaning they're not restricted from tournaments that ban Legends units.
Chaplain Dreads are a particular miss on GW's part. They haven't done Legends to FW units because they are still working on the new FW Books to give rules to the models in production. Add to that a CA Price Reduction along with adding Litanies to them via the FAQ and we had an OK unit (who even hurt of Chaplain Dreads before the IH Supplement was released?) buffed into the sky.
But this is all not really SOB related. The point is a rule enforced on all players isn't a bad rule because it doesn't allow you to field the army you want. Tournament play requires compromises. You are free to use whatever models you want when playing with your friends, but as things get more organized, limits happen. Some you will like, some you won't. Doesn't make the rule or the enforcers bad.
Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions and/or assume you're playing in a way that's anything other than competitive? Apart from turning up something new and different against conventional wisdom for further refinement, what value does noncompetitive play have towards deriving optimal and high-efficiency strategies and tactics?
Kinnay wrote:
That is a really good list, Lammia! I was surprised to see that all of that actually fit into a 2,000-points list. Tell us how it works for you!
Two points:
1.: I'm glad to see that someone else is using 2x4 Repentia. It just seems so much better than 1x8, seeing as you gain an extra MD for the death of both squads and that obviously two squads are more difficult to remove than one, e.g. through overwatch fire. But how do you think two small squads will impact the effectiveness of stratagems, be it Final Redemption, Desperate for Redemption, Holy Rage or any other stratagem?
2.: One thing I haven't seen people do, however, is outfit their BSS with a single combi-melta on the Superiors, instead of a meltagun on a regular sister. For only 1 extra point you basically gain an additional ablative wound for the melta (and an additional bolter, for what it's worth). Whenever I want cheap BSS, I just take 5 with a combi-melta on the Superior, maybe with a Simulacrum for the guaranteed chance to use a MD on them. That's what, 60/65 points?
I am doing 2x4 Repentia. 4 BR Repentia basically kill anything they touch as is, especially with CP investment. Pin down the overwatch with a Basilisk or Thunderfire gun [or the rhino, or whatever], then charge with 4 while leaving the other 4 in the Rhino for charging in the next turn. That said, I've made the mistake of sending in both together sometimes, and I need to remember not to do that.
I haven't really settled in on a list that I like yet, because I've been kind of unhappy with all of them that I've turned up. So far, I've mostly been using variations on a theme of 3x Exorcists, Repentia in a Rhino, some Seraphim, and a bunch of BSS with or without special weapons.
On one hand, it feels that BSS without special weapons are pretty lame for something I have so many of, on the other hand those special weapons are hideously expensive and take points away from units that might perform better. I advance a lot, so picking Argent Shroud over Valorous Heart or Bloody Rose might be worth considering.
Repentia usually do work and trade positively. They only need to kill one thing to make their cost back. I'm pretty happy with them, but have found myself dropping to 1x4 when I'm strapped for points despite them having pretty consistently solid performance.
I think Pengines are better than Mortifiers. I've tried both, and I'm struggling to see why I'd want a Mortifier over a Pengine considering they're virtually identical but the Pengine has 4+ re-rolling to hit & and 5+++ versus 3+ no-re-rolls and a 6+++.
I'm unhappy with Exorcists. I've run 2 classic 1 conflagration, 2 classic, and 3 classic. I'm unhappy with the performance of all three of the permutations, but I'm not comfortable dropping them and having no AT beyond 12". We've already had this discussion though, and I'm in the minority.
I want to run Zephyrim when they come out. I think they look very solid, however:
With Zephyrim and Seraphim, I don't know how many I want to run and in what squad size. On one hand, I can only effectively drop with 1 of each on turns 2 and 3. Seraphim require a stratagem, and Zephyrim require good Miracle Dice. I could also try to run both with Celestine running up the board with 4++ as a big horde of jump infantry, but it's a very expensive block no matter how you read it that won't be doing anything on turn 1 and still isn't very resilient. I think I want my Zerphyrim squads to be big and Seraphim squads to be small, but I'm not sure on that.
Theoretically, Rets look good, especially in a power armored foothorde. But I'm not confident in a power armored foothorde standing up to anything, much less a stiff breeze, given the state of the meta, and I'm not confident even a squad of 10 rets will survive past the enemy's first shooting phase. I'm also not confident in not having at least mid ranged antitank.
I'm also not really final or happy with picking doctrines. Valorous Heart feels strong, but also like it's only strong because of the meta, and that I'm giving up my choice of potentially offensive bonus to counter a kind of free property of the enemy army. Bloody Rose also feels strong, but only on a small subset of units, making me hesitant to take it for the whole army. Argent Shroud also feels like it would be good.
Right. America is only place in the world where competive games happen. All games in uk are just casual open games. No competive game in sight.
Lol. Then again this from guy who thinks flayed ones(using illegal things) and deathmarks pre ca were awesome units. Credibility: zero.
Did...someone ever say it was the only place competitive 40k existed. Never heard anyone say it. Maelstrom as competitive got mentioned though. So that was fun.
In other news, Europeans also play ITC. Shocking. I know.
That aside, I proved myself in competitive play. With this army. I have the proof I need to back what I say up. You being a jerk wont change that.
You misquoting me flat out on deathmarks, and trying to PRETEND like I was "wrong" about flayed ones is your right. Its just false.
The scoreboard never lies. Opinions are great. Results are better.
You had them at 4 attacks. Ignoring everything else, that’s just flat out wrong.
It isnt. It was explained to you with all the patience you deserved.
.
Take your entirely wrong answers back to the necron thread dude.
As an optional rule that you may or may not want to implement for ranked play.
I quote:
Games Workshop wrote:Of course, if you are organising such an event, you should feel free to modify these guidelines to better suit your event’s own needs, schedule, etc.
In other words: "This is just an optional house rule we made to try to quickly fix the problem of spamming super powerful units, change it to suit your needs."
But this is really getting off topic at this point, and I feel I've proved my point. So I'm more interested in the Legends discussion at this point.
Literally any rule has this caveat. Lol. Anywho i think the evidence is pretty clearly understood by most. Wishing it werent so is a thing you can do.
Melissia wrote: *shrug* If they won't let me play my Sisters list because "rule of three, yo!" and I only have one generic and no named characters that aren't tied to a different order, then frankly the tournament is trash, the tournament organizer is a trash-tier human being, and I have no desire to participate in their trashy tournament..
There's 2 special characters(and sisters at that) that aren't tied to different order. Triump and Celestine. So even if you have some silly house rule of no missionaries you can still get brigade+battalion easily. Only triple battalion is out of you.
alextroy wrote: Your thematic choices within the confines of your Codex should not dictate the rules for a tournament.
A tournament having gakky, unnecessary, and poorly balanced house rules that make me unable to play my list is well worthy of criticism.
It's no more bad than player himself having own house rules making army unplayable. Like certain dakkadakka poster who had house rule of fielding only tactical marines with missile launcher and flamer and expecting to win with nothing but those. That's up to player. Not for tournament organizer. If player makes silly artificial limitations that's his issue.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: legend was created fdor roughly the same reasons ro3 was, to prevent ass hats from spamming OP units, Ala IH Relic Chaplain Dreads. Which was a literal thing until ITC stepped in and stated you will be disqualified if you use this( Not in so many words)
Uh what you are saying? ITC did not say such thing. They said to check conversions before hand. And even if you didn't you weren't disqualified. Model just could not be used.
And chaplain dreads aren't in legends to begin with...Might want to check up on what legends are actually before you claim what it was for.
edit: Also if issue is "they are males in all women army" then that's even extra silly seeing missionaries and preachers are both women and men. "These men and women serve as the front line of the Ministorum, guiding the newest followers of the God-Emperor in their day-to-day prayers and observances.".
So you have both male and women missionary/preachers in same organization. So limiting them is about as sensible as me saying "canoness does not fit my headcannon. Release another generic HQ or I can't play! Your tournament rules suck!"
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions and/or assume you're playing in a way that's anything other than competitive? Apart from turning up something new and different against conventional wisdom for further refinement, what value does noncompetitive play have towards deriving optimal and high-efficiency strategies and tactics?
Because not everyone wants to use the same lists forever? Same reason no faction thread starts with "Here is The Most Optimised List you can make. There is to be no deviation from The Optimised List. The Optimised List is not to be questioned. Deviation from The Optimised List will result in mockery, derision and disregarding of opinions. All hail The Optimised List."
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions and/or assume you're playing in a way that's anything other than competitive? Apart from turning up something new and different against conventional wisdom for further refinement, what value does noncompetitive play have towards deriving optimal and high-efficiency strategies and tactics?
Because not everyone wants to use the same lists forever? Same reason no faction thread starts with "Here is The Most Optimised List you can make. There is to be no deviation from The Optimised List. The Optimised List is not to be questioned. Deviation from The Optimised List will result in mockery, derision and disregarding of opinions. All hail The Optimised List."
Don't start complaining about tournament rules then because of your limitations
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions and/or assume you're playing in a way that's anything other than competitive? Apart from turning up something new and different against conventional wisdom for further refinement, what value does noncompetitive play have towards deriving optimal and high-efficiency strategies and tactics?
Because not everyone wants to use the same lists forever? Same reason no faction thread starts with "Here is The Most Optimised List you can make. There is to be no deviation from The Optimised List. The Optimised List is not to be questioned. Deviation from The Optimised List will result in mockery, derision and disregarding of opinions. All hail The Optimised List."
Don't start complaining about tournament rules then because of your limitations
I do think TBH the missionary restriction of 1 per detachment is a bit odd, as far as I knowno one codex has that limiter for any of their HQs (even though GW created the rule of 3 specificly because some items damn well fething SHOULD have that limit) and it's not like an army with 3 missionaries as the only HQ will break the game.
? Sure, Dominions got Blessed Bolts, but only one squad benefits from it, so I would love to see if Celestians are the better pick for multiple more elite servo sisters.
?
