Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions and/or assume you're playing in a way that's anything other than competitive? Apart from turning up something new and different against conventional wisdom for further refinement, what value does noncompetitive play have towards deriving optimal and high-efficiency strategies and tactics?
Because not everyone wants to use the same lists forever? Same reason no faction thread starts with "Here is The Most Optimised List you can make. There is to be no deviation from The Optimised List. The Optimised List is not to be questioned. Deviation from The Optimised List will result in mockery, derision and disregarding of opinions. All hail The Optimised List."
Don't start complaining about tournament rules then because of your limitations
People were complaining that if people are imposing tournament restrictions onto advice or discusson then they should clearly state such, rather than assuming that the restrictions are the default.
Hell, last thread when ERJACK was calling the Battle Sanctum useless because it takes up a detachment slot I was super confused because I'd never heard of ANY detachment limits. Turns out it was one of those rules that GWsuggested that people just started acting like its a rule because tournaments do it.
If in a few months time someone comes into the thread saying "Hey, I'm new to Sisters and really like the idea of lots of Immolators, how do you suggest I go about making a list for that?" the first reaction should NOT be to verbally slap them, inform them that they can only ever take three and that they should actually be three exorcists because immolators are poop. Congrats, now they might just not bother and we lost another potential Sisters player.The aim of a tactics thread should be to discuss the units and how to get the best out of everything in our codex, not just figure out what's best then keep taking variations of that over and over and over again.
I swear its like some people don't understand how a hobby community works.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions and/or assume you're playing in a way that's anything other than competitive? Apart from turning up something new and different against conventional wisdom for further refinement, what value does noncompetitive play have towards deriving optimal and high-efficiency strategies and tactics?
Because not everyone wants to use the same lists forever? Same reason no faction thread starts with "Here is The Most Optimised List you can make. There is to be no deviation from The Optimised List. The Optimised List is not to be questioned. Deviation from The Optimised List will result in mockery, derision and disregarding of opinions. All hail The Optimised List."
Don't start complaining about tournament rules then because of your limitations
I do think TBH the missionary restriction of 1 per detachment is a bit odd, as far as I knowno one codex has that limiter for any of their HQs (even though GW created the rule of 3 specificly because some items damn well fething SHOULD have that limit) and it's not like an army with 3 missionaries as the only HQ will break the game.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions and/or assume you're playing in a way that's anything other than competitive? Apart from turning up something new and different against conventional wisdom for further refinement, what value does noncompetitive play have towards deriving optimal and high-efficiency strategies and tactics?
Because not everyone wants to use the same lists forever? Same reason no faction thread starts with "Here is The Most Optimised List you can make. There is to be no deviation from The Optimised List. The Optimised List is not to be questioned. Deviation from The Optimised List will result in mockery, derision and disregarding of opinions. All hail The Optimised List."
Don't start complaining about tournament rules then because of your limitations
I do think TBH the missionary restriction of 1 per detachment is a bit odd, as far as I knowno one codex has that limiter for any of their HQs (even though GW created the rule of 3 specificly because some items damn well fething SHOULD have that limit) and it's not like an army with 3 missionaries as the only HQ will break the game.
Inquisition and Tau have it too.
that's right, although Tau IIRC had it FAq'd in after people abused commanders yeah?
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions and/or assume you're playing in a way that's anything other than competitive? Apart from turning up something new and different against conventional wisdom for further refinement, what value does noncompetitive play have towards deriving optimal and high-efficiency strategies and tactics?
Because not everyone wants to use the same lists forever? Same reason no faction thread starts with "Here is The Most Optimised List you can make. There is to be no deviation from The Optimised List. The Optimised List is not to be questioned. Deviation from The Optimised List will result in mockery, derision and disregarding of opinions. All hail The Optimised List."
Don't start complaining about tournament rules then because of your limitations
I do think TBH the missionary restriction of 1 per detachment is a bit odd, as far as I knowno one codex has that limiter for any of their HQs (even though GW created the rule of 3 specificly because some items damn well fething SHOULD have that limit) and it's not like an army with 3 missionaries as the only HQ will break the game.
Inquisition and Tau have it too.
that's right, although Tau IIRC had it FAq'd in after people abused commanders yeah?
That sounds right.
Inquisition has it more for fluff reasons, I think.(Though there's nothing fulffy about a Supreme Command detachment of Farsight Enclave Coldstars, one with Fusion Blades)
The Missionary restriction is both fluff and 'we needed a reason to convince you to waste points on a Preacher outside of a 'make Nightlords reroll their morale save' meme.'
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions and/or assume you're playing in a way that's anything other than competitive? Apart from turning up something new and different against conventional wisdom for further refinement, what value does noncompetitive play have towards deriving optimal and high-efficiency strategies and tactics?
Kinnay wrote:
That is a really good list, Lammia! I was surprised to see that all of that actually fit into a 2,000-points list. Tell us how it works for you!
Two points:
1.: I'm glad to see that someone else is using 2x4 Repentia. It just seems so much better than 1x8, seeing as you gain an extra MD for the death of both squads and that obviously two squads are more difficult to remove than one, e.g. through overwatch fire. But how do you think two small squads will impact the effectiveness of stratagems, be it Final Redemption, Desperate for Redemption, Holy Rage or any other stratagem?
2.: One thing I haven't seen people do, however, is outfit their BSS with a single combi-melta on the Superiors, instead of a meltagun on a regular sister. For only 1 extra point you basically gain an additional ablative wound for the melta (and an additional bolter, for what it's worth). Whenever I want cheap BSS, I just take 5 with a combi-melta on the Superior, maybe with a Simulacrum for the guaranteed chance to use a MD on them. That's what, 60/65 points?
I am doing 2x4 Repentia. 4 BR Repentia basically kill anything they touch as is, especially with CP investment. Pin down the overwatch with a Basilisk or Thunderfire gun [or the rhino, or whatever], then charge with 4 while leaving the other 4 in the Rhino for charging in the next turn. That said, I've made the mistake of sending in both together sometimes, and I need to remember not to do that.
I haven't really settled in on a list that I like yet, because I've been kind of unhappy with all of them that I've turned up. So far, I've mostly been using variations on a theme of 3x Exorcists, Repentia in a Rhino, some Seraphim, and a bunch of BSS with or without special weapons.
On one hand, it feels that BSS without special weapons are pretty lame for something I have so many of, on the other hand those special weapons are hideously expensive and take points away from units that might perform better. I advance a lot, so picking Argent Shroud over Valorous Heart or Bloody Rose might be worth considering.
Repentia usually do work and trade positively. They only need to kill one thing to make their cost back. I'm pretty happy with them, but have found myself dropping to 1x4 when I'm strapped for points despite them having pretty consistently solid performance.
I think Pengines are better than Mortifiers. I've tried both, and I'm struggling to see why I'd want a Mortifier over a Pengine considering they're virtually identical but the Pengine has 4+ re-rolling to hit & and 5+++ versus 3+ no-re-rolls and a 6+++.
I'm unhappy with Exorcists. I've run 2 classic 1 conflagration, 2 classic, and 3 classic. I'm unhappy with the performance of all three of the permutations, but I'm not comfortable dropping them and having no AT beyond 12". We've already had this discussion though, and I'm in the minority.
I want to run Zephyrim when they come out. I think they look very solid, however:
With Zephyrim and Seraphim, I don't know how many I want to run and in what squad size. On one hand, I can only effectively drop with 1 of each on turns 2 and 3. Seraphim require a stratagem, and Zephyrim require good Miracle Dice. I could also try to run both with Celestine running up the board with 4++ as a big horde of jump infantry, but it's a very expensive block no matter how you read it that won't be doing anything on turn 1 and still isn't very resilient. I think I want my Zerphyrim squads to be big and Seraphim squads to be small, but I'm not sure on that.
Theoretically, Rets look good, especially in a power armored foothorde. But I'm not confident in a power armored foothorde standing up to anything, much less a stiff breeze, given the state of the meta, and I'm not confident even a squad of 10 rets will survive past the enemy's first shooting phase. I'm also not confident in not having at least mid ranged antitank.
I'm also not really final or happy with picking doctrines. Valorous Heart feels strong, but also like it's only strong because of the meta, and that I'm giving up my choice of potentially offensive bonus to counter a kind of free property of the enemy army. Bloody Rose also feels strong, but only on a small subset of units, making me hesitant to take it for the whole army. Argent Shroud also feels like it would be good.
On the subject of alternative anti tank / experience with exorcists I am actually quite interested in your thoughts on this. My sister army is just a fledgling at this point, I have 35 sisters for basic troops, an imagifier, 3 canoness, and some seraphim at the moment. I was looking at exorcists but it seems everyone in my local meta is running 3 of them and it makes me wonder if there is a better option/viable alternative out there that I am missing. I don't want to drop 240$ on 3 tanks without really thinking ahead and making sure there were no better options to choose from.
davidgr33n wrote: Anybody thinking of using the sanctum in their games?
In an infantry only VH list it might be competitive to place 3 units of melta Rets on a placable terrain for 2+ with a Stoic Imagifier for the ignores (1 and 2) AP, plus maybe a Canoness with Indomitable Belief for a 5++ and reroll 1s. That would make them 2+/5++/6+++.
And the sanctum gives 1 extra MD per turn. The Ld boost is meh but can only help.
Sanctum is a great option. Best terrain piece in the game. Amazing for VH especiall.
Also take Celestine in that setup so even if they are AP-3 they still bounce off the 4++.
I’ve considered Celestine in the list but just to keep her there as a buff seems pricey.
Another benefit is on the top floor no dreads or mechs can get to them.
Have we seen actual dimensions on the Sanctum yet? I'm going to build to match my table with a full base to make it clear what's in and what's out. Without feeling too bad about modeling for advantage there will be room for an Exo, a small squad, and a couple of characters on the lower level. Other than that I intend to match the original as closely as possible.
I tend to deploy Celestine in the rear to start and move her off after turn 1, especially when I go second. Her aura helps the Exos in the first enemy volley and then follows the main force into no man's land.
Melissia wrote: *shrug* If they won't let me play my Sisters list because "rule of three, yo!" and I only have one generic and no named characters that aren't tied to a different order, then frankly the tournament is trash, the tournament organizer is a trash-tier human being, and I have no desire to participate in their trashy tournament.
But you know, this isn't a new problem, considering it's a problem that Mechanicus faced for a while, too, so if you haven't adjusted your rules yet you're a disgrace of a tournament organizer.
This made me laugh a lot. It's like a vegan looking at a 10 page menu and then calling the restaurant trash because they don't cater enough to the vegan's self imposed limitations.
I don't think any tournament attendees will be missing out by not playing against someone with this attitude.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions and/or assume you're playing in a way that's anything other than competitive? Apart from turning up something new and different against conventional wisdom for further refinement, what value does noncompetitive play have towards deriving optimal and high-efficiency strategies and tactics?
Kinnay wrote:
That is a really good list, Lammia! I was surprised to see that all of that actually fit into a 2,000-points list. Tell us how it works for you!
Two points:
1.: I'm glad to see that someone else is using 2x4 Repentia. It just seems so much better than 1x8, seeing as you gain an extra MD for the death of both squads and that obviously two squads are more difficult to remove than one, e.g. through overwatch fire. But how do you think two small squads will impact the effectiveness of stratagems, be it Final Redemption, Desperate for Redemption, Holy Rage or any other stratagem?
2.: One thing I haven't seen people do, however, is outfit their BSS with a single combi-melta on the Superiors, instead of a meltagun on a regular sister. For only 1 extra point you basically gain an additional ablative wound for the melta (and an additional bolter, for what it's worth). Whenever I want cheap BSS, I just take 5 with a combi-melta on the Superior, maybe with a Simulacrum for the guaranteed chance to use a MD on them. That's what, 60/65 points?
I am doing 2x4 Repentia. 4 BR Repentia basically kill anything they touch as is, especially with CP investment. Pin down the overwatch with a Basilisk or Thunderfire gun [or the rhino, or whatever], then charge with 4 while leaving the other 4 in the Rhino for charging in the next turn. That said, I've made the mistake of sending in both together sometimes, and I need to remember not to do that.
I haven't really settled in on a list that I like yet, because I've been kind of unhappy with all of them that I've turned up. So far, I've mostly been using variations on a theme of 3x Exorcists, Repentia in a Rhino, some Seraphim, and a bunch of BSS with or without special weapons.
On one hand, it feels that BSS without special weapons are pretty lame for something I have so many of, on the other hand those special weapons are hideously expensive and take points away from units that might perform better. I advance a lot, so picking Argent Shroud over Valorous Heart or Bloody Rose might be worth considering.
Repentia usually do work and trade positively. They only need to kill one thing to make their cost back. I'm pretty happy with them, but have found myself dropping to 1x4 when I'm strapped for points despite them having pretty consistently solid performance.
I think Pengines are better than Mortifiers. I've tried both, and I'm struggling to see why I'd want a Mortifier over a Pengine considering they're virtually identical but the Pengine has 4+ re-rolling to hit & and 5+++ versus 3+ no-re-rolls and a 6+++.
I'm unhappy with Exorcists. I've run 2 classic 1 conflagration, 2 classic, and 3 classic. I'm unhappy with the performance of all three of the permutations, but I'm not comfortable dropping them and having no AT beyond 12". We've already had this discussion though, and I'm in the minority.
I want to run Zephyrim when they come out. I think they look very solid, however:
With Zephyrim and Seraphim, I don't know how many I want to run and in what squad size. On one hand, I can only effectively drop with 1 of each on turns 2 and 3. Seraphim require a stratagem, and Zephyrim require good Miracle Dice. I could also try to run both with Celestine running up the board with 4++ as a big horde of jump infantry, but it's a very expensive block no matter how you read it that won't be doing anything on turn 1 and still isn't very resilient. I think I want my Zerphyrim squads to be big and Seraphim squads to be small, but I'm not sure on that.
Theoretically, Rets look good, especially in a power armored foothorde. But I'm not confident in a power armored foothorde standing up to anything, much less a stiff breeze, given the state of the meta, and I'm not confident even a squad of 10 rets will survive past the enemy's first shooting phase. I'm also not confident in not having at least mid ranged antitank.
I'm also not really final or happy with picking doctrines. Valorous Heart feels strong, but also like it's only strong because of the meta, and that I'm giving up my choice of potentially offensive bonus to counter a kind of free property of the enemy army. Bloody Rose also feels strong, but only on a small subset of units, making me hesitant to take it for the whole army. Argent Shroud also feels like it would be good.
On the subject of alternative anti tank / experience with exorcists I am actually quite interested in your thoughts on this. My sister army is just a fledgling at this point, I have 35 sisters for basic troops, an imagifier, 3 canoness, and some seraphim at the moment. I was looking at exorcists but it seems everyone in my local meta is running 3 of them and it makes me wonder if there is a better option/viable alternative out there that I am missing. I don't want to drop 240$ on 3 tanks without really thinking ahead and making sure there were no better options to choose from.
There is no better/viable option to fill the role the Exorcist does [outside of bringing in allied support]. Rets are the only maybe option, and they only even get close to making range with a stratagem and they're more fragile, and still scarily expensive.
You kind of need to have the capability that the Exorcist offers. What makes me unhappy is that now they're both so expensive and impossible to fix. The old one could be fixed after seeing the roll with a command re-roll, and at 125 points it was pretty cheap enough that even if it didn't perform for one turn it wasn't a major problem. The new one's fixing stratagem has to be used before seeing the roll [how am I going to be prescient enough to know which one of mine will fail], and with 3d3 for the roll a single command re-roll won't go as far for fixing it once you've rolled poorly.
Also, 135 points is a lot of points, it's a whole squad of Seraphim, or a lot of meltaguns to hand out. Hell, it's almost a battalion of Guardsmen for CP and objective holding.
That's why I'm unhappy with the Exorcist. Yes, it's baseline firepower and average firepower has been improved, but the cost has also gone up a lot, when it does go bad you're stuck, and it's eating out of the other things I want in my army.
Have we seen actual dimensions on the Sanctum yet? I'm going to build to match my table with a full base to make it clear what's in and what's out. Without feeling too bad about modeling for advantage there will be room for an Exo, a small squad, and a couple of characters on the lower level. Other than that I intend to match the original as closely as possible.
I tend to deploy Celestine in the rear to start and move her off after turn 1, especially when I go second. Her aura helps the Exos in the first enemy volley and then follows the main force into no man's land.
It's mostly made out of standard Sector Imperialis bits.
The height is easy 5" + 5" + ~2" for the spires - so about a foot.
I don't have my Imperialis terrain handy, so I can't measure the other elements, but it should be calculable.
I'm also assuming that the FAQ or instructions will require the statue to be placed within the Ո formed by the Imperialis pieces.
If in a few months time someone comes into the thread saying "Hey, I'm new to Sisters and really like the idea of lots of Immolators, how do you suggest I go about making a list for that?" the first reaction should NOT be to verbally slap them, inform them that they can only ever take three and that they should actually be three exorcists because immolators are poop. Congrats, now they might just not bother and we lost another potential Sisters player.The aim of a tactics thread should be to discuss the units and how to get the best out of everything in our codex, not just figure out what's best then keep taking variations of that over and over and over again.
Immolators are dedicated transports. You can take 1 for every non-DT, non-Flyer BFR, non-Fortification, non-LoW unit in your army. :3
That's why I'm unhappy with the Exorcist. Yes, it's baseline firepower and average firepower has been improved, but the cost has also gone up a lot, when it does go bad you're stuck, and it's eating out of the other things I want in my army.
I just wish the heavy bolter on it and the Immolator were optional. On the former, it feels slightly out-of-place. On the latter, Immolation Flamers means either giving up the ability to advance to fire the HB OR advancing and not firing the HB if you're not Argent Shroud. The twin multimelta Immo, a single heavy bolter feels out-of-place like it does on the Exorcist. That leaves triple HBs... And last I knew, HBs weren't great this edition?
I just wish the heavy bolter on it and the Immolator were optional. On the former, it feels slightly out-of-place. On the latter, Immolation Flamers means either giving up the ability to advance to fire the HB OR advancing and not firing the HB if you're not Argent Shroud. The twin multimelta Immo, a single heavy bolter feels out-of-place like it does on the Exorcist. That leaves triple HBs... And last I knew, HBs weren't great this edition?
From the game ive played Heavy bolts are really good this addition and really good for sisters with divine guidance. I played a match they was bolter focused as sacred heart to try out their strat of every to-hit of a 6 adds another hit with DG as my rite. Had a Dom squad with storm bolts with blessed bolts and s.heart strat wipe out a full squad of primaris that where in cover. I got more hits that what I rolled and got super lucky with 9 to-wound being 6s for a swarm of ap-3 d2.
As for triple hb immolator it's the cheapest immolator and you don't have to advance with it every turn. First turn should be with move advance pop smoke anyway. Second turn drops the girls off then goes harassment or softens up the unit that's about to get charged. Just remember they get bonus from rites too.
The warlord trait 'Beacon of Faith' gives a bonus miracle die every turn as long as the warlord is on the table. The Sacred Rose warlord trait Light of the Emperor gives a bonus miracle die every time the warlord performs an act of faith .
The latter sounds like it would be better since it can work more than once per turn, but to me it seems more restrictive since it is really only refunding dice instead of granting them. Is it even realistic to expect a canoness to be performing acts if faith all of the time? Beacon of Faith seems like it would always work out better but am I missing something?
The warlord trait 'Beacon of Faith' gives a bonus miracle die every turn as long as the warlord is on the table. The Sacred Rose warlord trait Light of the Emperor gives a bonus miracle die every time the warlord performs an act of faith .
The latter sounds like it would be better since it can work more than once per turn, but to me it seems more restrictive since it is really only refunding dice instead of granting them. Is it even realistic to expect a canoness to be performing acts if faith all of the time? Beacon of Faith seems like it would always work out better but am I missing something?
I have put "Beacon of Faith" on my 2nd Canoness, who also has Litanies of Faith. So 2 MD a turn and I can reroll one. She is slightly farther back to give the rerolls to the Exorcists, behind them if there are eliminators.
Melissia wrote: *shrug* If they won't let me play my Sisters list because "rule of three, yo!" and I only have one generic and no named characters that aren't tied to a different order, then frankly the tournament is trash, the tournament organizer is a trash-tier human being, and I have no desire to participate in their trashy tournament..
There's 2 special characters(and sisters at that) that aren't tied to different order. Triump and Celestine. So even if you have some silly house rule of no missionaries you can still get brigade+battalion easily. Only triple battalion is out of you.
alextroy wrote: Your thematic choices within the confines of your Codex should not dictate the rules for a tournament.
A tournament having gakky, unnecessary, and poorly balanced house rules that make me unable to play my list is well worthy of criticism.
It's no more bad than player himself having own house rules making army unplayable. Like certain dakkadakka poster who had house rule of fielding only tactical marines with missile launcher and flamer and expecting to win with nothing but those. That's up to player. Not for tournament organizer. If player makes silly artificial limitations that's his issue.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: legend was created fdor roughly the same reasons ro3 was, to prevent ass hats from spamming OP units, Ala IH Relic Chaplain Dreads. Which was a literal thing until ITC stepped in and stated you will be disqualified if you use this( Not in so many words)
Uh what you are saying? ITC did not say such thing. They said to check conversions before hand. And even if you didn't you weren't disqualified. Model just could not be used.
And chaplain dreads aren't in legends to begin with...Might want to check up on what legends are actually before you claim what it was for.
edit: Also if issue is "they are males in all women army" then that's even extra silly seeing missionaries and preachers are both women and men. "These men and women serve as the front line of the Ministorum, guiding the newest followers of the God-Emperor in their day-to-day prayers and observances.".
So you have both male and women missionary/preachers in same organization. So limiting them is about as sensible as me saying "canoness does not fit my headcannon. Release another generic HQ or I can't play! Your tournament rules suck!"
I am also on the "no men in my army" bandwagon. I finally get an all girl army to have fun with and go all girl power and they go and sully it with an ancient male model. pfffffttttt. That priest model from anvil looks pretty awesome and I'm really hoping that Victoria miniatures does something as well (her stuff is just AMAZING! albeit expensive) I hate the baddest girls in the galaxy (or whatever it is called) because it is purely sexism in resin.
The warlord trait 'Beacon of Faith' gives a bonus miracle die every turn as long as the warlord is on the table. The Sacred Rose warlord trait Light of the Emperor gives a bonus miracle die every time the warlord performs an act of faith .
The latter sounds like it would be better since it can work more than once per turn, but to me it seems more restrictive since it is really only refunding dice instead of granting them. Is it even realistic to expect a canoness to be performing acts if faith all of the time? Beacon of Faith seems like it would always work out better but am I missing something?
It depends on a lot of things. It wouldn't be any use on a cheerleader Canonness as shes going to be keeping back near the exorcist battery, its also not really something to take unless your specifically building around Sacred Rose.
Yeah... the exorcist is an almost mandatory inclusion I feel. Either of its weapon options are something that Sisters simply have no other option for. Multimelta retributors are VERY expensive for what you get, and need to get very close to have anywhere near the same effect. I mean even if you include additional girls as ablative wounds and stuff them in a rhino... that just adds to the cost.
Yeah... the exorcist is an almost mandatory inclusion I feel. Either of its weapon options are something that Sisters simply have no other option for. Multimelta retributors are VERY expensive for what you get, and need to get very close to have anywhere near the same effect. I mean even if you include additional girls as ablative wounds and stuff them in a rhino... that just adds to the cost.
I really want to like Retributors more than I do.
36" meltas are pretty good. Even better if they're Argent Shroud.
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions
Next time I hear someone say "you're playing mechanized? freaking casual, nobody plays that any more", I'm going to start crotch-punting people.
Everyone has their limit on what they want to play. I want to play pure Sisters of Battle, and I feel like having a mechanized list (eventually, of course, cause it's gonna get expensive). But within those confines, I still want to have as good a list as I possibly can. If I wanted to just play the most powerful army in the game I probably wouldn't bother playing Sisters at all. But I pick an army based on how much I like its aesthetics and theme, not on how much I love how powerful it is. Tactics and advice isn't just for pure 100% WAAC players. Most of those posters are going to avoid this thread anyway.
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Sim-Life wrote: 36" meltas are pretty good. Even better if they're Argent Shroud.
Yes, but you're paying a premium for it.
It's around 148 points for four of those with two armorium cherubs, which packs a pretty hefty wallop-- six shots on one turn, four on every other turn.
But good luck getting that in range without getting it blown to pieces. I mean, I can see it maybe working, but it's a very, very high risk, and the reward doesn't feel like it's quite enough for me.
Are there any difference in the models from the different boxes?
I know that you can make battle sisters, Dominions and celestians from the same box.
But what about Retributors?
Do they differ from the other models in body appereance?
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: Question: What's the point in discussing tactics as a tactics discussion thread if you're going to impose artificial narrative restrictions
Next time I hear someone say "you're playing mechanized? freaking casual, nobody plays that any more", I'm going to start crotch-punting people.
Everyone has their limit on what they want to play. I want to play pure Sisters of Battle, and I feel like having a mechanized list (eventually, of course, cause it's gonna get expensive). But within those confines, I still want to have as good a list as I possibly can. If I wanted to just play the most powerful army in the game I probably wouldn't bother playing Sisters at all. But I pick an army based on how much I like its aesthetics and theme, not on how much I love how powerful it is. Tactics and advice isn't just for pure 100% WAAC players. Most of those posters are going to avoid this thread anyway.
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Sim-Life wrote: 36" meltas are pretty good. Even better if they're Argent Shroud.
Yes, but you're paying a premium for it.
It's around 148 points for four of those with two armorium cherubs, which packs a pretty hefty wallop-- six shots on one turn, four on every other turn.
But good luck getting that in range without getting it blown to pieces. I mean, I can see it maybe working, but it's a very, very high risk, and the reward doesn't feel like it's quite enough for me.
I agree with both points on this. No point kicking the horse on rule of 3/self imposed restrictions/match play vs open or casual, it is what it is. If someone wants advice and adds "my group doesnt use rule of 3" then cool, but people have to own some of their own preconceptions here. 95% of the time when people on these tactics threads want feed back or advice they are talking match play rule of 3. That makes it the questioners job to point out if that's not the case, not the advice givers job to figure out.
As for the retributers i want to like them as well, but i think 12" heavy flamers is a better situation for them than 36" meltas. People are going to target a 36" potential melta range quick, they may ignore the 12" flamers until its too late because it's not as quick a threat. Plus the cost difference is quite substantial.
Asking tactic help with self imposed guide lines is fine. Accusing tournament organizers having stupid tournament rules and being bad persons etc because they haven't deigned to design tournament rules to make it better for you is not.
I don't like facing iron hands. Any tournament that doesn't ban iron hands sucks and organizer is jerk!
Or "my order doesn't have any canoness left. Your tournament sucks because it doesn't allow me to use this house ruled new HQ".
Sim-Life wrote: It depends on a lot of things. It wouldn't be any use on a cheerleader Canonness as shes going to be keeping back near the exorcist battery, its also not really something to take unless your specifically building around Sacred Rose.
I was aiming for a fluffy flamer-spam list using the Order of the Ashen Shrine (derived from Sacred Rose). The canonesses don't really fit in at all to be honest, but I don't exactly have a lot of HQ choices
I have put "Beacon of Faith" on my 2nd Canoness, who also has Litanies of Faith. So 2 MD a turn and I can reroll one. She is slightly farther back to give the rerolls to the Exorcists, behind them if there are eliminators.
Yeah... the exorcist is an almost mandatory inclusion I feel. Either of its weapon options are something that Sisters simply have no other option for. Multimelta retributors are VERY expensive for what you get, and need to get very close to have anywhere near the same effect. I mean even if you include additional girls as ablative wounds and stuff them in a rhino... that just adds to the cost.
I really want to like Retributors more than I do.
36" meltas are pretty good. Even better if they're Argent Shroud.
36" Multi Meltas are 1 unit under that effect for 2CP a turn, and 4 Melta shots isn't an adequate turn-1 AT pool. Arguably, I don't think the exorcist battery is entirely an adequate turn-1 AT pool, since if they're all you have there are definitely going to be times where you let the enemy's key model have a turn because the Exorcists couldn't zonk it.
Those 36" range rets actually have to get lucky to scratch a tank on the first turn, so if you can't even reliably turn-1 take out a Leman Russ, your antitank pool is too small. My general bar was/is to be able to turn-1 a Knight to be considered adequate, or at least get close enough that some inefficient shooting can finish it.
Bilge Rat wrote:Inexperienced Sisters of Battle player here
The warlord trait 'Beacon of Faith' gives a bonus miracle die every turn as long as the warlord is on the table. The Sacred Rose warlord trait Light of the Emperor gives a bonus miracle die every time the warlord performs an act of faith .
The latter sounds like it would be better since it can work more than once per turn, but to me it seems more restrictive since it is really only refunding dice instead of granting them. Is it even realistic to expect a canoness to be performing acts if faith all of the time? Beacon of Faith seems like it would always work out better but am I missing something?
No, it's not realistic to expect your canoness to be performing a lot of MD's.
I'd even argue that I'd rather my Warlord Traits go to re-roll wounds on the charge and +1 Invul Save.
I also think that having a small number of better MD is better than having a lot of weaker ones, since investing heavily into simulacra to outflow a large number of them wherever they may be needed doesn't seem as value to me as popping a 5 or a 6 for damage once a turn and just having more meltaguns to shoot, so if I was taking a faith-based warlord trait, I'd take the one that sets the first one you get to a 6.
If in a few months time someone comes into the thread saying "Hey, I'm new to Sisters and really like the idea of lots of Immolators, how do you suggest I go about making a list for that?" the first reaction should NOT be to verbally slap them, inform them that they can only ever take three and that they should actually be three exorcists because immolators are poop. Congrats, now they might just not bother and we lost another potential Sisters player.The aim of a tactics thread should be to discuss the units and how to get the best out of everything in our codex, not just figure out what's best then keep taking variations of that over and over and over again.
Immolators are dedicated transports. You can take 1 for every non-DT, non-Flyer BFR, non-Fortification, non-LoW unit in your army. :3
That's why I'm unhappy with the Exorcist. Yes, it's baseline firepower and average firepower has been improved, but the cost has also gone up a lot, when it does go bad you're stuck, and it's eating out of the other things I want in my army.
I just wish the heavy bolter on it and the Immolator were optional. On the former, it feels slightly out-of-place. On the latter, Immolation Flamers means either giving up the ability to advance to fire the HB OR advancing and not firing the HB if you're not Argent Shroud. The twin multimelta Immo, a single heavy bolter feels out-of-place like it does on the Exorcist. That leaves triple HBs... And last I knew, HBs weren't great this edition?
I was and to some degree still am using HB Immolators. I would say the worst immolator is 2x Multimelta [expensive], middle is flamers [expensive but effective, and best is Heavy Bolters [lowest cost, reasonable effect].
I'm not too keen on the Immolator in general right now though. I'm afraid to use it as a staff car for characters, and since I can't use Dominions with them anymore, I don't really have a whole lot to ride in them. Also, they're expensive and I have so many units I want to buy.
Yeah... the exorcist is an almost mandatory inclusion I feel. Either of its weapon options are something that Sisters simply have no other option for. Multimelta retributors are VERY expensive for what you get, and need to get very close to have anywhere near the same effect. I mean even if you include additional girls as ablative wounds and stuff them in a rhino... that just adds to the cost.
I really want to like Retributors more than I do.
36" meltas are pretty good. Even better if they're Argent Shroud.
I’ve been experimenting with lists and I agree an Exo point for point is better than a unit of Retributors. But when I use pure infantry lists with 3 units of Retributors they actually last longer than 3 Exorcists due to my opponent’s antitank weapons not having tanks to go after. In my VH pure infantry list they have no choice but to plink my infantry.
Since I usually play forward in my deployment zone with the Rets in cover and with Canoness and Imagifier auras, they can hit any aggressive big stuff or flyers. My experience is big stuff in the opponents backfield is meant to deal with my big stuff, so not having any gives me an edge and I usually don’t worry about them. If I do need to take care of something further back I get my Inferno Seraphims to deal with them.
Maybe not the most effective but unless their deep backfield units are heavy anti-infantry I’m usually not worried about what their weapons can do to my units.
Anyone have any experience with immolater spam? I was thinking of possibly tunning 6 of them with double melta with 5 man sister squads in them. Add 3 exorcists and what does the enemy choose as a target?
Azuza001 wrote: Anyone have any experience with immolater spam? I was thinking of possibly tunning 6 of them with double melta with 5 man sister squads in them. Add 3 exorcists and what does the enemy choose as a target?
Melta Immolators have never been that popular in 8th edition. Those who have tried one have found them too expensive for what they do, especially if you're moving them.
Immolators generally are overpriced, but you can get away with them if you want the fire support they offer.
Azuza001 wrote: Anyone have any experience with immolater spam? I was thinking of possibly tunning 6 of them with double melta with 5 man sister squads in them. Add 3 exorcists and what does the enemy choose as a target?
I mean, I opened the edition with Immolator Spam.
I'm not doing it anymore. They're just not worth the cost.
In beta codex, they were viable bullet sponges for Exorcists, since three from your doms would be in the enemy face and they were about the same cost as the Exorcists. Now, with Exorcists so expensive and no ability to scout Immolators? No. Almost certainly not. The immolators will never contribute as much as the Exorcists, so it's an easy choice to frag the Exorcists.
That's what I was thinking, that 6 immolaters wouldnt distract enough for the 3 exorcists but that's 12 multimelta shots at 24" that are not getting targeted because the exorcists are distracting. I have never felt multimeltas need to get within 12" to be effective (obviously they are better when they are but a str 8 ap-4 d6 shot is still a str 8 AP-4 d6 shot.)
But other than immolaters with multimeltas what are our anti tank options? Dominions with melta guns? Retributers with multi meltas? Seraphim with inferno pistols? Mortifiers with saws? That seems to be about it to me.
Azuza001 wrote: That's what I was thinking, that 6 immolaters wouldnt distract enough for the 3 exorcists but that's 12 multimelta shots at 24" that are not getting targeted because the exorcists are distracting. I have never felt multimeltas need to get within 12" to be effective (obviously they are better when they are but a str 8 ap-4 d6 shot is still a str 8 AP-4 d6 shot.)
But other than immolaters with multimeltas what are our anti tank options? Dominions with melta guns? Retributers with multi meltas? Seraphim with inferno pistols? Mortifiers with saws? That seems to be about it to me.
Repentia, Pen. Engine/Mortifier, MM Rets and BSS Combi-Melta are the popular choices with an honorable mention to Inferno Serephim and a nod to Zephyrim
Azuza001 wrote: That's what I was thinking, that 6 immolaters wouldnt distract enough for the 3 exorcists but that's 12 multimelta shots at 24" that are not getting targeted because the exorcists are distracting. I have never felt multimeltas need to get within 12" to be effective (obviously they are better when they are but a str 8 ap-4 d6 shot is still a str 8 AP-4 d6 shot.)
But other than immolaters with multimeltas what are our anti tank options? Dominions with melta guns? Retributers with multi meltas? Seraphim with inferno pistols? Mortifiers with saws? That seems to be about it to me.
Repentia, Pen. Engine/Mortifier, MM Rets and BSS Combi-Melta are the popular choices with an honorable mention to Inferno Serephim and a nod to Zephyrim
Walkers aren't really at option as such. They are distraction carnlfex. Even the tougher variant of penitent engine dies when given evil stare let alone actual firepower. Best at role they serve eating up few shots away from exorcists due to rule of 3. And seeing how hard reaching combat is less than 4 damage(even less with mortifier) isn't all that hot result. And even less if you take flails which is more flexible weapon
Azuza001 wrote: That's what I was thinking, that 6 immolaters wouldnt distract enough for the 3 exorcists but that's 12 multimelta shots at 24" that are not getting targeted because the exorcists are distracting. I have never felt multimeltas need to get within 12" to be effective (obviously they are better when they are but a str 8 ap-4 d6 shot is still a str 8 AP-4 d6 shot.)
But other than immolaters with multimeltas what are our anti tank options? Dominions with melta guns? Retributers with multi meltas? Seraphim with inferno pistols? Mortifiers with saws? That seems to be about it to me.
Repentia, Pen. Engine/Mortifier, MM Rets and BSS Combi-Melta are the popular choices with an honorable mention to Inferno Serephim and a nod to Zephyrim
Walkers aren't really at option as such. They are distraction carnlfex. Even the tougher variant of penitent engine dies when given evil stare let alone actual firepower. Best at role they serve eating up few shots away from exorcists due to rule of 3. And seeing how hard reaching combat is less than 4 damage(even less with mortifier) isn't all that hot result. And even less if you take flails which is more flexible weapon
They hit hard enough if they get there though and at a little over 50 ppm, I'd rather they get shot than Exos.
Azuza001 wrote: That's what I was thinking, that 6 immolaters wouldnt distract enough for the 3 exorcists but that's 12 multimelta shots at 24" that are not getting targeted because the exorcists are distracting. I have never felt multimeltas need to get within 12" to be effective (obviously they are better when they are but a str 8 ap-4 d6 shot is still a str 8 AP-4 d6 shot.)
But other than immolaters with multimeltas what are our anti tank options? Dominions with melta guns? Retributers with multi meltas? Seraphim with inferno pistols? Mortifiers with saws? That seems to be about it to me.
Repentia, Pen. Engine/Mortifier, MM Rets and BSS Combi-Melta are the popular choices with an honorable mention to Inferno Serephim and a nod to Zephyrim
Walkers aren't really at option as such. They are distraction carnlfex. Even the tougher variant of penitent engine dies when given evil stare let alone actual firepower. Best at role they serve eating up few shots away from exorcists due to rule of 3. And seeing how hard reaching combat is less than 4 damage(even less with mortifier) isn't all that hot result. And even less if you take flails which is more flexible weapon
They hit hard enough if they get there though and at a little over 50 ppm, I'd rather they get shot than Exos.
With saws penitent engine deals less than 4 damage. Mortifier even less. And the thing is "to hit you need to be alive". They die when given evil stare. They aren't there to kill anything. Just soak some firepower. If you could take more than 3 exorcists more of them would be better AT. Walkers for AT are just to lure enemy to shoot at them rather than exorcists. 3,12 per penitent engine(less with mortifier) vs leman russ isn't that hot. And that's with the saw which is in general worse weapon than flail. So 3.12 against ideal target on the more choppy version.
keep in mind Pengines can be deployed in groups. the way to sue them is to take 2 or 3 of them, toss em at your enemy draw some fire from your more fragile stuff, and when they hit into close combat shread whatever you tossed em at. Not only are they a distraction carnifex, that's basicly their in universe job as well
Yeah 2 or 3 for enemy to kill. Even the tougher penitent engine dies to evil stare. They are not there to kill anything because to kill something you need to first be able to attack. They move in, they get blown to bits. That's their role. They are not there for anti tank. They are there to keep your anti tank alive.
Azuza001 wrote: That's what I was thinking, that 6 immolaters wouldnt distract enough for the 3 exorcists but that's 12 multimelta shots at 24" that are not getting targeted because the exorcists are distracting. I have never felt multimeltas need to get within 12" to be effective (obviously they are better when they are but a str 8 ap-4 d6 shot is still a str 8 AP-4 d6 shot.)
But other than immolaters with multimeltas what are our anti tank options? Dominions with melta guns? Retributers with multi meltas? Seraphim with inferno pistols? Mortifiers with saws? That seems to be about it to me.
Repentia, Pen. Engine/Mortifier, MM Rets and BSS Combi-Melta are the popular choices with an honorable mention to Inferno Serephim and a nod to Zephyrim
Walkers aren't really at option as such. They are distraction carnlfex. Even the tougher variant of penitent engine dies when given evil stare let alone actual firepower. Best at role they serve eating up few shots away from exorcists due to rule of 3. And seeing how hard reaching combat is less than 4 damage(even less with mortifier) isn't all that hot result. And even less if you take flails which is more flexible weapon
They hit hard enough if they get there though and at a little over 50 ppm, I'd rather they get shot than Exos.
With saws penitent engine deals less than 4 damage. Mortifier even less. And the thing is "to hit you need to be alive". They die when given evil stare. They aren't there to kill anything. Just soak some firepower. If you could take more than 3 exorcists more of them would be better AT. Walkers for AT are just to lure enemy to shoot at them rather than exorcists. 3,12 per penitent engine(less with mortifier) vs leman russ isn't that hot. And that's with the saw which is in general worse weapon than flail. So 3.12 against ideal target on the more choppy version.
I guess?
I mean, whatever my Pen. Engine has hit hasn't played in the rest of the game an it has a habit of being remarkably resilient when it gets down to 1 wound, but I guess ymmv...
The warlord trait 'Beacon of Faith' gives a bonus miracle die every turn as long as the warlord is on the table. The Sacred Rose warlord trait Light of the Emperor gives a bonus miracle die every time the warlord performs an act of faith .
The latter sounds like it would be better since it can work more than once per turn, but to me it seems more restrictive since it is really only refunding dice instead of granting them. Is it even realistic to expect a canoness to be performing acts if faith all of the time? Beacon of Faith seems like it would always work out better but am I missing something?
Light of the Emperor is a fantastic way to recycle low dice into potentially high ones. Use those low dice as often as you can with this and you're basically giving yourself a chance to exchange a 2 for something better.
Yep that's the main use for that. Only issue is main use for those 2's will be to hit with gun but you often want exorcists to use MD so...one option would be to use those 2's to advance if you don't need to shoot/move more than 2.
I built two squads of ten retributors, one with 4 heavy flamers, 1 with 4 multi meltas, simulacrum in each and two cherubs in each. I know they're expensive, but I like them as a concept. I built the sister superiors with chainswords, and one with combi flamer for the mm squad, one with combi melta for the hf squad. This is for the holy trinity strat. Now I think about it though, would I be better off just having all the weapons line up, and swap the superiors?
Nothing big. Using a Command Reroll to reroll a MD is nice I guess.
I don't always use Test of Faith or Vessel of the Emperor's Will to gain dice for 1CP when they come up. Not sure there will be many situations where it's worth spending CP to reroll one. Still, better to have the option than not, I suppose.
Nothing big. Using a Command Reroll to reroll a MD is nice I guess.
Biggest takeaways:
Army Box Rod of Office Canoness is now legal... but the wargear option itself suffers even more from role confusion than before. Hanging back to buff with her increased aura and having a mediocre but rather expensive close combat loadout (power sword and plasma pistol) is not a good combination, especially when the rod costs not an insignificant amount of points too. The bolter at least was free and guaranteed to get at least one bolt shot off per turn most of the time.
Repressors got a buff though, they now benefit from Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith AND Sacred Rites. Now an even better vehicle choice and still better than the Immolator.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Makes the Army Box Canoness legal, but not sure I'm overly enthused by needing to spend 7 more points on such a mediorce weapon choice.
Plasma pistols are only 5 points. Though I agree, the only good place to put a plasma pistol is on a Seraphim Superior IMO.
Asmodai wrote:
I don't always use Test of Faith or Vessel of the Emperor's Will to gain dice for 1CP when they come up. Not sure there will be many situations where it's worth spending CP to reroll one. Still, better to have the option than not, I suppose.
Ragnar Blackmane wrote: Repressors got a buff though, they now benefit from Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith AND Sacred Rites. Still don't benefit from Order Convictions it seems, sadly. Still a good vehicle choice and still better than the Immolator.
Ragnar Blackmane wrote: Repressors got a buff though, they now benefit from Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith AND Sacred Rites. Still don't benefit from Order Convictions it seems, sadly. Still a good vehicle choice and still better than the Immolator.
They still have the order keyword, tho?
Always thought they didn't but good to know they do .
In that case they are very nice, AP -1 or AP-2 immunity alone helps them quite a bit, as well as many of the other Order traits.
Repressors got a buff though, they now benefit from Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith AND Sacred Rites. Still don't benefit from Order Convictions it seems, sadly. Still a good vehicle choice and still better than the Immolator.
Actually the Repressors have the <order> keyword so they do benefit from Convictions. It’s nice that my Repressors can now gain and use MDs, and Sacred Rites means all the shots from 2 stormbolters and Heavy flamer can gain from Divine Guidance.
It’s good to see them even mention the Repressor in the faq, makes me even more inclined to think they’ll include them in the next Codex as a transport choice.
Repressors got a buff though, they now benefit from Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith AND Sacred Rites. Still don't benefit from Order Convictions it seems, sadly. Still a good vehicle choice and still better than the Immolator.
Actually the Repressors have the <order> keyword so they do benefit from Convictions. It’s nice that my Repressors can now gain and use MDs, and Sacred Rites means all the shots from 2 stormbolters and Heavy flamer can gain from Divine Guidance.
It’s good to see them even mention the Repressor in the faq, makes me even more inclined to think they’ll include them in the next Codex as a transport choice.
That would be next fw books. Fw units don't generally transfer to gw books.
Besides don't count on new sister codex this decade
Repressors got a buff though, they now benefit from Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith AND Sacred Rites. Still don't benefit from Order Convictions it seems, sadly. Still a good vehicle choice and still better than the Immolator.
Actually the Repressors have the <order> keyword so they do benefit from Convictions. It’s nice that my Repressors can now gain and use MDs, and Sacred Rites means all the shots from 2 stormbolters and Heavy flamer can gain from Divine Guidance.
It’s good to see them even mention the Repressor in the faq, makes me even more inclined to think they’ll include them in the next Codex as a transport choice.
That would be next fw books. Fw units don't generally transfer to gw books.
Besides don't count on new sister codex this decade
My buddy is 100% convinced Repressor is getting the Legends treatment.
Repressors got a buff though, they now benefit from Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith AND Sacred Rites. Still don't benefit from Order Convictions it seems, sadly. Still a good vehicle choice and still better than the Immolator.
Actually the Repressors have the <order> keyword so they do benefit from Convictions. It’s nice that my Repressors can now gain and use MDs, and Sacred Rites means all the shots from 2 stormbolters and Heavy flamer can gain from Divine Guidance.
It’s good to see them even mention the Repressor in the faq, makes me even more inclined to think they’ll include them in the next Codex as a transport choice.
That would be next fw books. Fw units don't generally transfer to gw books.
Besides don't count on new sister codex this decade
It always bugged me that the trygon got turned into a codex entry and even kept the same sculpt as the FW model but the never did it with anything else. The contemptor dread maybe? Like how hard would it have benn to make an Immolator/Repressor kit for this release?
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Makes the Army Box Canoness legal, but not sure I'm overly enthused by needing to spend 7 more points on such a mediorce weapon choice.
Plasma pistols are only 5 points. Though I agree, the only good place to put a plasma pistol is on a Seraphim Superior IMO.
As read it appears that the only way of taking a rod of office is to take the whole loadout, sword, plasma pistol and rod(?)
thats an expensive loadout for a nonsense canoness
Lammia wrote: Repentia, Pen. Engine/Mortifier, MM Rets and BSS Combi-Melta are the popular choices with an honorable mention to Inferno Serephim and a nod to Zephyrim
While capable, Repentia are extremely fragile and you basically need to build your list around maximizing their output for them to be worth it. I mean, I'm still going to try cause I think they'd be a useful addition... would be more useful if they weren't elite slot though. Wish they were FA or something.
Penitent Engine / Mortifier... of the two, only the mortifier is worth taking. The Pentitent Flails are nice with their 15 attacks at S6 AP-2, but that's really more of an elite infantry murderer, not much of an anti-tank unit. Anything S7 with a 3+ save or better (which is a lot of tanks) will certainly take some damage from it, but at the same time, P.Engines and Mortifiers are actually more fragile than an armored sentinel-- making them fairly easy to take down with anti-tank fire. I mean, with their toughness and number of wounds, even concentrated heavy bolter fire will be a serious threat to these things.
Multi-Melta Retributors are 32 points apiece, for a total squad cost of 138 points (148 points if you're smart and give them armorium cherubs). They're hugely expensive for what you get, and I guarantee that they'll be focus-fired hard. They can sure put out some damage, with a single turn of 6 multi-melta shots with those cherubs... but, particularly if they're at half range, they'll probably be wiped out the turn afterwards unless you're extremely careful or lucky.
Seraphim... I mean, maybe. Twin inferno pistols are certainly really useful. But they do basically have to assault the tank they're trying to kill in order to maximize their inferno pistols. But they're definitely a good budget option, especially with meltagun dominions not as useful as they used to be.
Zephyrim are really more of infantry destroyers than tank destroyers, even with their rerolling wounds. Rerolling a 6+ to-wound roll will certainly help.... but it's still a 6+ rolled twice. Even with an Imagifier or other +1 strength option, they're still 5+, and good luck having one of the non-jump pack units follow them close enough to give that bonus.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Makes the Army Box Canoness legal, but not sure I'm overly enthused by needing to spend 7 more points on such a mediorce weapon choice.
Plasma pistols are only 5 points. Though I agree, the only good place to put a plasma pistol is on a Seraphim Superior IMO.
As read it appears that the only way of taking a rod of office is to take the whole loadout, sword, plasma pistol and rod(?)
thats an expensive loadout for a nonsense canoness
Yes it’s an extra 14 points added for a 3” aura addition. GW assumes a Rod Canoness can only lead from the front, they don’t consider a backfield Canoness a thing.
Zephyrim are really more of infantry destroyers than tank destroyers, even with their rerolling wounds. Rerolling a 6+ to-wound roll will certainly help.... but it's still a 6+ rolled twice. Even with an Imagifier or other +1 strength option, they're still 5+, and good luck having one of the non-jump pack units follow them close enough to give that bonus.
with auras/bloody rose they have 4 attacks each, possibly rerolling ones, at S4, +1 to wound and rerolling wounds.
so a squad of 8 (lets say 2 stay back for auras) are going to average:
14 wounds vs t7/3+
9.5 wounds vs t8/3+
it sounds like a perfect storm but its really just not outrunning your banner boy and/or priest, miracle dice letting you guarantee a charge out of reserves is awesome.
Yes it’s an extra 14 points added for a 3” aura addition. GW assumes a Rod Canoness can only lead from the front, they don’t consider a backfield Canoness a thing.
also the rod only effects her personal aura, not indomitable belief
Pass
:(
another note, if you need to fill the slots, squads of rets with "not 4 heavy weapons" are viable, one or two multimeltas and 2 cherubs is a good amount of alpha strike shoots
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Makes the Army Box Canoness legal, but not sure I'm overly enthused by needing to spend 7 more points on such a mediorce weapon choice.
Plasma pistols are only 5 points. Though I agree, the only good place to put a plasma pistol is on a Seraphim Superior IMO.
As read it appears that the only way of taking a rod of office is to take the whole loadout, sword, plasma pistol and rod(?)
thats an expensive loadout for a nonsense canoness
Yes it’s an extra 14 points added for a 3” aura addition. GW assumes a Rod Canoness can only lead from the front, they don’t consider a backfield Canoness a thing.
No model, no rules. The only model with a Rod of Office has Power Sword and Plasma Pistol, so that is what you have to take.
Melissia wrote: That's really obnoxious and makes me even less likely to use said rod. I mean, why not also allow a Blessed Blade?
What's even wierder is that GW is THAT picky with loadout options for the Canoness when almost any Superior can take a hand flamer... which are only in the Seraphim box. And in turn a Seraphim Superior can only take a bolt/plasma pistol or a power sword.
Like seriously, they could have at least made both bolter or plasma pistol choices for the rod, considering they bothered printing the bolter bit all over their books, rather than taking away the option entirely with the FAQ. It's like they are desperately trying to keep the value of the army box up with that one exclusive character model in it, now that the actual plastic kits are out.
Melissia wrote: That's really obnoxious and makes me even less likely to use said rod. I mean, why not also allow a Blessed Blade?
What's even wierder is that GW is THAT picky with loadout options for the Canoness when almost any Superior can take a hand flamer... which are only in the Seraphim box. And in turn a Seraphim Superior can only take a bolt/plasma pistol or a power sword.
Like seriously, they could have at least made both bolter or plasma pistol choices for the rod, considering they bothered printing the bolter bit all over their books, rather than taking away the option entirely with the FAQ. It's like they are desperately trying to keep the value of the army box up with that one exclusive character model in it, now that the actual plastic kits are out.
Seeing GW doesn't sell that box anymore hardly reason. Especially as the box is still discount and gives more poses which is value in itself in an army that can easily have like 100+ infantry model so attack of the clones is definitely an issue
More likely the new canoness box cannot be used to build boltgun+power sword+rod combo
That helps my hobbling decision making... now I'm definitely going to chop that Canoness up to make a BR Canoness with Benificence. Sidearm for that conversion: inferno, BP, or plasma?
If you need a canoness with a 9-12" aura, it's worth whatever it costs. Sure, being stuck with a PS and PP is annoying, but it's still the best loadout available for non-bloody rose mono-canoness detachments.
I'm going to run VH and my store has 3 of the LE boxes left. Probably buy all 3, sell what I don't want (don't need 3 codecii's or card packs) so it'll be nice to have the Cannoness, even if not optimal loadout legal without doing all sorts of chopping and crap.
I'm not worried about multipose models. I play Daemons, each of their troop choices has like 3 poses max as far as legs/torsos. When I'm fielding 90 plaguebearers I don't give a rats arse how much "attack of the clones" they look. Characters I take time to pose, rank and file? Can't be bothered.
jivardi wrote: I'm going to run VH and my store has 3 of the LE boxes left. Probably buy all 3, sell what I don't want (don't need 3 codecii's or card packs) so it'll be nice to have the Cannoness, even if not optimal loadout legal without doing all sorts of chopping and crap.
I'm not worried about multipose models. I play Daemons, each of their troop choices has like 3 poses max as far as legs/torsos. When I'm fielding 90 plaguebearers I don't give a rats arse how much "attack of the clones" they look. Characters I take time to pose, rank and file? Can't be bothered.
The solo kits aren't even multipose. They are multi-options. You have some head differences(assuming you don't go helmeted) and can put different weapons but posability wise zero. So all your individual kit bolter girls will be looking same.
In fact the limited edition set will help in this regard. Without it you have 10 poses for battle sisters. With limited edition 17. Not quite double but better. Especially handy if you want bolter&chainsword superiors more than 2-3.
Repressors got a buff though, they now benefit from Acts of Faith, Shield of Faith AND Sacred Rites. Still don't benefit from Order Convictions it seems, sadly. Still a good vehicle choice and still better than the Immolator.
Actually the Repressors have the <order> keyword so they do benefit from Convictions. It’s nice that my Repressors can now gain and use MDs, and Sacred Rites means all the shots from 2 stormbolters and Heavy flamer can gain from Divine Guidance.
It’s good to see them even mention the Repressor in the faq, makes me even more inclined to think they’ll include them in the next Codex as a transport choice.
That would be next fw books. Fw units don't generally transfer to gw books.
Besides don't count on new sister codex this decade
More FW units have gone GW then people remember. All the IG tank variants expect Demo were FW, Valkyrie was FW, Hydra was FW, Manticore was FW, etc... It's not beyond hope that It'll become GW at some point.
Lammia wrote: Repentia, Pen. Engine/Mortifier, MM Rets and BSS Combi-Melta are the popular choices with an honorable mention to Inferno Serephim and a nod to Zephyrim
While capable, Repentia are extremely fragile and you basically need to build your list around maximizing their output for them to be worth it. I mean, I'm still going to try cause I think they'd be a useful addition... would be more useful if they weren't elite slot though. Wish they were FA or something.
Do you need to build your list around them? I've found them to be sufficient just tacked on. Though giving them their own Vanguard detachment does raise your performance significantly.
Penitent Engine / Mortifier... of the two, only the mortifier is worth taking. The Pentitent Flails are nice with their 15 attacks at S6 AP-2, but that's really more of an elite infantry murderer, not much of an anti-tank unit. Anything S7 with a 3+ save or better (which is a lot of tanks) will certainly take some damage from it, but at the same time, P.Engines and Mortifiers are actually more fragile than an armored sentinel-- making them fairly easy to take down with anti-tank fire. I mean, with their toughness and number of wounds, even concentrated heavy bolter fire will be a serious threat to these things.
I've found the 5+++ and Zealot to be worth more than what the Mortifier offers, and the buzz blades are definitely designed with Armour hunting in mind. Their damage output is probably underwhelming, but they weren't ever going to one turn anything bigger than a character.
Multi-Melta Retributors are 32 points apiece, for a total squad cost of 138 points (148 points if you're smart and give them armorium cherubs). They're hugely expensive for what you get, and I guarantee that they'll be focus-fired hard. They can sure put out some damage, with a single turn of 6 multi-melta shots with those cherubs... but, particularly if they're at half range, they'll probably be wiped out the turn afterwards unless you're extremely careful or lucky.
MM Rets certainly aren't a plug and shoot option, but it's been pointed out that there are a few options fot making the most or the points you spend
Seraphim... I mean, maybe. Twin inferno pistols are certainly really useful. But they do basically have to assault the tank they're trying to kill in order to maximize their inferno pistols. But they're definitely a good budget option, especially with meltagun dominions not as useful as they used to be.
They're definitely the Budget option, but people have been making them work for some time now and we're not making up new plays. Knowing what you're doing with a squad is most of the battle.
Zephyrim are really more of infantry destroyers than tank destroyers, even with their rerolling wounds. Rerolling a 6+ to-wound roll will certainly help.... but it's still a 6+ rolled twice. Even with an Imagifier or other +1 strength option, they're still 5+, and good luck having one of the non-jump pack units follow them close enough to give that bonus.
Zephyrim aren't tank hunters, they're tank annoyers. Being able to stop a tank from shooting and not getting shot while your tank hunters deal with other things is still a valuable strategy.
Lammia wrote: Do you need to build your list around them? I've found them to be sufficient just tacked on. Though giving them their own Vanguard detachment does raise your performance significantly.
Depends? I mean, I probably wouldn't, but I'm already playing mechanized. So I just need to find space for them in a Rhino or Immolator.
Lammia wrote: Their damage output is probably underwhelming, but they weren't ever going to one turn anything bigger than a character.
I'd consider either one to be mostly best at deleting squads.
Lammia wrote: MM Rets certainly aren't a plug and shoot option, but it's been pointed out that there are a few options fot making the most or the points you spend
Yes, but I'd not consider them for footslogger armies at all simply because even with the shoot after advancing, they're gonna get focus fired HARD before they do that much damage.
Lammia wrote: Zephyrim aren't tank hunters, they're tank annoyers. Being able to stop a tank from shooting and not getting shot while your tank hunters deal with other things is still a valuable strategy.
I mean that's not wrong. I am seriously considering some Zephyrim once their models are released.
Lammia wrote: Repentia, Pen. Engine/Mortifier, MM Rets and BSS Combi-Melta are the popular choices with an honorable mention to Inferno Serephim and a nod to Zephyrim
While capable, Repentia are extremely fragile and you basically need to build your list around maximizing their output for them to be worth it. I mean, I'm still going to try cause I think they'd be a useful addition... would be more useful if they weren't elite slot though. Wish they were FA or something.
Do you need to build your list around them? I've found them to be sufficient just tacked on. Though giving them their own Vanguard detachment does raise your performance significantly.
Penitent Engine / Mortifier... of the two, only the mortifier is worth taking. The Pentitent Flails are nice with their 15 attacks at S6 AP-2, but that's really more of an elite infantry murderer, not much of an anti-tank unit. Anything S7 with a 3+ save or better (which is a lot of tanks) will certainly take some damage from it, but at the same time, P.Engines and Mortifiers are actually more fragile than an armored sentinel-- making them fairly easy to take down with anti-tank fire. I mean, with their toughness and number of wounds, even concentrated heavy bolter fire will be a serious threat to these things.
I've found the 5+++ and Zealot to be worth more than what the Mortifier offers, and the buzz blades are definitely designed with Armour hunting in mind. Their damage output is probably underwhelming, but they weren't ever going to one turn anything bigger than a character.
Multi-Melta Retributors are 32 points apiece, for a total squad cost of 138 points (148 points if you're smart and give them armorium cherubs). They're hugely expensive for what you get, and I guarantee that they'll be focus-fired hard. They can sure put out some damage, with a single turn of 6 multi-melta shots with those cherubs... but, particularly if they're at half range, they'll probably be wiped out the turn afterwards unless you're extremely careful or lucky.
MM Rets certainly aren't a plug and shoot option, but it's been pointed out that there are a few options fot making the most or the points you spend
Seraphim... I mean, maybe. Twin inferno pistols are certainly really useful. But they do basically have to assault the tank they're trying to kill in order to maximize their inferno pistols. But they're definitely a good budget option, especially with meltagun dominions not as useful as they used to be.
They're definitely the Budget option, but people have been making them work for some time now and we're not making up new plays. Knowing what you're doing with a squad is most of the battle.
Zephyrim are really more of infantry destroyers than tank destroyers, even with their rerolling wounds. Rerolling a 6+ to-wound roll will certainly help.... but it's still a 6+ rolled twice. Even with an Imagifier or other +1 strength option, they're still 5+, and good luck having one of the non-jump pack units follow them close enough to give that bonus.
Zephyrim aren't tank hunters, they're tank annoyers. Being able to stop a tank from shooting and not getting shot while your tank hunters deal with other things is still a valuable strategy.
Stratagems make or break units, especially for us. Looking at a unit without their stratagem support does not fully represent their capabilities.
10 zephyrim with the BR strat kill a rhino or leman russ on average after shooting, and will bracket a knight. They're fine against vehicles. Against Flyers, if you can actually get them in range for S4 they'll obliterate Hemlockes and DoomScythes.
Seraphim are incredible for their price, being able to shoot 4 melta shots out of deepstrike (dodging auspex scan I might add) and having the ability to generate miracle dice in the movement phase. The short range on their pistols is irrelevant, you'll never have more than 1 unit on board at the start of the game.
Melta doms are largely out. Too many points in too easy of a target. Seraphim are a better delivery system, ASBSS squads with 3 meltas are a more efficient 'gotcha' squad and MM rets are just all around more usable, even at a premium price. And while I know you've said that you plan on going mechanized, and more power to you, the Immolator is easily the second worse unit in the book behind the geminae. It is ungodly expensive for being incredibly fragile. Footslog is pretty much how sisters play now, outside of exorcists.
Not that you can't succeed using immolators, but you'll definitely hover over the 'delete' key in every list you put them in.
Your rets getting FFed? Good. Valorous Heart rets LOVE being focus fired. Take a squad of 10 and watch an ironhands player use literally all of their anti-infantry firepower on them and kill 3 sisters. Watch an IF player tear his hair out over 3 thunderfire cannons and 3 whirlwinds failing to kill 10 models, even with ignores cover. Most common anti-infantry weapons in the game are AP-2, so they'll just bounce off the Rets. Even if they do get to the meltas, a hospitaller pays for herself bringing back 1 model.
Exorcists are actually much more fragile in practice than MM rets.
Your rets getting FFed? Good. Valorous Heart rets LOVE being focus fired. Take a squad of 10 and watch an ironhands player use literally all of their anti-infantry firepower on them and kill 3 sisters. Watch an IF player tear his hair out over 3 thunderfire cannons and 3 whirlwinds failing to kill 10 models, even with ignores cover. Most common anti-infantry weapons in the game are AP-2, so they'll just bounce off the Rets. Even if they do get to the meltas, a hospitaller pays for herself bringing back 1 model.
Exorcists are actually much more fragile in practice than MM rets.
I agree.
Lately I’ve been running 3 units of VH MM Rets (and Arm Chebs) with Canoness / Imagifier / Hospitaler support in a Sanctum. With 2+/5++/6+++ and ignores up to AP-2 shots they are very hard to shift. I still find their lack of range sad-face but since most things they can’t reach are the opponents anti-tank weapons they matter little anyway (let those big guns plink at my infantry happy-face)
Your rets getting FFed? Good. Valorous Heart rets LOVE being focus fired. Take a squad of 10 and watch an ironhands player use literally all of their anti-infantry firepower on them and kill 3 sisters. Watch an IF player tear his hair out over 3 thunderfire cannons and 3 whirlwinds failing to kill 10 models, even with ignores cover. Most common anti-infantry weapons in the game are AP-2, so they'll just bounce off the Rets. Even if they do get to the meltas, a hospitaller pays for herself bringing back 1 model.
Exorcists are actually much more fragile in practice than MM rets.
I'm not convinced this is true.
And part of this is also almost exclusively because of the Space Marine meta, where we're kind of tailoring to face Space Marines. If you're going to come up against Guard, with a lot of AP0 high-efficiency anti-infantry weapons, I expect Exorcists to win out dramatically in terms of survivability, similar for Tyranids, Tau, Eldar, Orks, and basically everybody except Necrons and Space Marines.
Of course, Space Marines are dominating the meta at like 70% of all lists, so tailoring to oppose Space Marines isn't a bad idea. You're vastly more likely to come across Space Marines than any of the other factions, especially in a high-power setting.
Anyway, it takes an average of 7 Lascannon/Laser Destroyer [or 25 Illiastas Cannon/Stormcannon] hits to service an Exorcist, and an average of 54 bolt rifle [or any anti-infantry weapon] hits or 18 Illiastas Cannon/Stormcannon hits to service a Ret Squad. [Both Valorous Heart & Supported]
Rogerio134134 wrote: Not only are they brilliant anti tank units but they can also put down a massive rate of fire against infantry as well with the conflagration rockets.
Exorcists do not have multiple fire modes, they have two weapon options. You can equip them with only one of the two.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Not only are they brilliant anti tank units but they can also put down a massive rate of fire against infantry as well with the conflagration rockets.
Exorcists do not have multiple fire modes, they have two weapon options. You can equip them with only one of the two.
A terrible mistake, if ever there was one.
Alongside the Geminae unit being separate from Celestine and the Dominions no longer applying their effect to their transport.
Your rets getting FFed? Good. Valorous Heart rets LOVE being focus fired. Take a squad of 10 and watch an ironhands player use literally all of their anti-infantry firepower on them and kill 3 sisters. Watch an IF player tear his hair out over 3 thunderfire cannons and 3 whirlwinds failing to kill 10 models, even with ignores cover. Most common anti-infantry weapons in the game are AP-2, so they'll just bounce off the Rets. Even if they do get to the meltas, a hospitaller pays for herself bringing back 1 model.
Exorcists are actually much more fragile in practice than MM rets.
I'm not convinced this is true.
And part of this is also almost exclusively because of the Space Marine meta, where we're kind of tailoring to face Space Marines. If you're going to come up against Guard, with a lot of AP0 high-efficiency anti-infantry weapons, I expect Exorcists to win out dramatically in terms of survivability, similar for Tyranids, Tau, Eldar, Orks, and basically everybody except Necrons and Space Marines.
Of course, Space Marines are dominating the meta at like 70% of all lists, so tailoring to oppose Space Marines isn't a bad idea. You're vastly more likely to come across Space Marines than any of the other factions, especially in a high-power setting.
Anyway, it takes an average of 7 Lascannon/Laser Destroyer [or 25 Illiastas Cannon/Stormcannon] hits to service an Exorcist, and an average of 54 bolt rifle [or any anti-infantry weapon] hits or 18 Illiastas Cannon/Stormcannon hits to service a Ret Squad. [Both Valorous Heart & Supported]
Tank commander punisher main cannon, less than 3 dead.
2k tau - 8 crisis suit fires and 4 dead sister when i played.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Not only are they brilliant anti tank units but they can also put down a massive rate of fire against infantry as well with the conflagration rockets.
Exorcists do not have multiple fire modes, they have two weapon options. You can equip them with only one of the two.
A terrible mistake, if ever there was one.
Alongside the Geminae unit being separate from Celestine and the Dominions no longer applying their effect to their transport.
Would have been nice if there was a strat to swap between missiles.
Also, am I right in thinking theres not much point putting a Repentia Superior in the same rhino as a Beneficience canonness? Its not like Sisters really need to reroll charges if they're worried about making it or not.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Not only are they brilliant anti tank units but they can also put down a massive rate of fire against infantry as well with the conflagration rockets.
Exorcists do not have multiple fire modes, they have two weapon options. You can equip them with only one of the two.
A terrible mistake, if ever there was one.
Alongside the Geminae unit being separate from Celestine and the Dominions no longer applying their effect to their transport.
Geminae are a fundamentally flawed models from a rules pov. I miss the glorious balance of Celestine and her posse's PL.
For all the issues with PL, it really worked for them
So, with this being the (as for now) final verdict on Miracle Dice, is there any reason to take Incensor cherubs? One AoF per phase and unless you have a Similacrum or are near the Triumph, you can replace one die.
Taikishi wrote: So, with this being the (as for now) final verdict on Miracle Dice, is there any reason to take Incensor cherubs? One AoF per phase and unless you have a Similacrum or are near the Triumph, you can replace one die.
Depends if you have a meltas in the squad. Only reason I could see.
Taikishi wrote: So, with this being the (as for now) final verdict on Miracle Dice, is there any reason to take Incensor cherubs? One AoF per phase and unless you have a Similacrum or are near the Triumph, you can replace one die.
Dom squad(or any) with a Simulacrum or an EC squad. It's not high on the list though
Taikishi wrote: So, with this being the (as for now) final verdict on Miracle Dice, is there any reason to take Incensor cherubs? One AoF per phase and unless you have a Similacrum or are near the Triumph, you can replace one die.
Obviously you have simulcranum if you have cherub and i have found useful. Gives me md(and in average bigger one) when short. Also handy with maelstrom card to get 2 or 5 vp easily.
Yeah. The Insensor Cherub looks to be a last add to a unit with a Simulacrum. Otherwise, it's only benefits are that it allows you to buy an enhanced Miracle Dice (your choice of two dice rolls). I like the idea Simulacrum on larger units with decent weapons, but it's still hard to justify the cost of an additional model (9-10 points) for a Miracle Dice. I'm really wishing Cherubs had their own point cost.
alextroy wrote: Yeah. The Insensor Cherub looks to be a last add to a unit with a Simulacrum. Otherwise, it's only benefits are that it allows you to buy an enhanced Miracle Dice (your choice of two dice rolls). I like the idea Simulacrum on larger units with decent weapons, but it's still hard to justify the cost of an additional model (9-10 points) for a Miracle Dice. I'm really wishing Cherubs had their own point cost.
I'm not sure what you mean - they're 5 points as additions to a unit.
Anyway, it takes an average of 7 Lascannon/Laser Destroyer [or 25 Illiastas Cannon/Stormcannon] hits to service an Exorcist, and an average of 54 bolt rifle [or any anti-infantry weapon] hits or 18 Illiastas Cannon/Stormcannon hits to service a Ret Squad. [Both Valorous Heart & Supported]
Taikishi wrote: So, with this being the (as for now) final verdict on Miracle Dice, is there any reason to take Incensor cherubs? One AoF per phase and unless you have a Similacrum or are near the Triumph, you can replace one die.
Taikishi wrote: So, with this being the (as for now) final verdict on Miracle Dice, is there any reason to take Incensor cherubs? One AoF per phase and unless you have a Similacrum or are near the Triumph, you can replace one die.
Chance to get a die from sacred rose?
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Gaining miracle dice, first sentence, Vengeance: A unit from your army with the act of faith ability destroys an enemy unit
So I have been sisters since 97, I have the old celestine model and what is left of my metal army. I am happy that sisters finally getting what they deserve some New Models. That said.
The way I am building my arm and I have not put this to the test since Not all the key models are out yet. This would be a 2k+ point game.
A tactic I think would be good for a core army would be celestine and Junith. Having them 12" apart For +1 to shield of faith with two squads of celestian in the middle to take the hits for their HQ and their invuln is +4 due to celestine and junith. Behind the celestian squad is two hospitallers bringing back celestian squads. This would take for ever for tanks or any squad to kill off the core of the army. I have yet to decided how I will do the other parts of the army. Maybe Repentia squads on each side of the HQ on the out side making their invuln +5. Two Diologist in the middle as well.
This tactic is untested though. In my mind it looks good.. Maybe for a table with little scenery. I would have to see how it plays out in a city setting. Luckly the +1 to invuln says within 6" not Wholly withing like they do in AOS.
Taikishi wrote: So, with this being the (as for now) final verdict on Miracle Dice, is there any reason to take Incensor cherubs? One AoF per phase and unless you have a Similacrum or are near the Triumph, you can replace one die.
Chance to get a die from sacred rose?
You'd need a Simulacrum of the Triumph nearby to help.
Which is why I'm so confused as to what people are complaining about. There was already little reason to take it without a Simulacrum anyway, as they work pretty perfect together for early game MD efficiency, but are otherwise difficult to maximize on their own.
Think if it as you're giving your squads a 5 point upgrade to perform an Act for all of them turn 1 without needing a pool to do so.
It's also fun, imo
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sim-Life wrote: Running Junith forces you to build around Martyred Lady, so keep that in mind. You'd probably want large squads of sisters in this case.
Only for her reroll aura, so if you have other sources of that or don't care, she will still provide the invuln boost to everybody else. For whatever that is worth to you.
Sim-Life wrote: Running Junith forces you to build around Martyred Lady, so keep that in mind. You'd probably want large squads of sisters in this case.
Well That is given since they are needed for battle line, They be in front of Celestian squad, getting +4 invuln from Junith and celestine. As long as the squads are 6" within both of them. The main point of it is a tau tactic celestian squad acting like drones, can't pic of HQs easyly and I don't think tau can bring back drones as hospataller can bring back 1 a round. Keeps your Celestine and junith from getting mortal wounds too.
Taikishi wrote: So, with this being the (as for now) final verdict on Miracle Dice, is there any reason to take Incensor cherubs? One AoF per phase and unless you have a Similacrum or are near the Triumph, you can replace one die.
Chance to get a die from sacred rose?
You'd need a Simulacrum of the Triumph nearby to help.
Which is why I'm so confused as to what people are complaining about. There was already little reason to take it without a Simulacrum anyway, as they work pretty perfect together for early game MD efficiency, but are otherwise difficult to maximize on their own.
Think if it as you're giving your squads a 5 point upgrade to perform an Act for all of them turn 1 without needing a pool to do so.
It's also fun, imo
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sim-Life wrote: Running Junith forces you to build around Martyred Lady, so keep that in mind. You'd probably want large squads of sisters in this case.
Only for her reroll aura, so if you have other sources of that or don't care, she will still provide the invuln boost to everybody else. For whatever that is worth to you.
Anyway, it takes an average of 7 Lascannon/Laser Destroyer [or 25 Illiastas Cannon/Stormcannon] hits to service an Exorcist, and an average of 54 bolt rifle [or any anti-infantry weapon] hits or 18 Illiastas Cannon/Stormcannon hits to service a Ret Squad. [Both Valorous Heart & Supported]
ignoring AP, ignoring cover
3+ save
6+ feel no pain
thats
6.66 dead sisters
7.778 dead sisters
8.88 dead sisters
what am I missing?
lascannon vs an exo i'd probably miracle away the first save
That the boltrifle shots won't be ignoring cover because you don't usually see IF intercessors, they tend to be run in spearheads.
And katherine is missing that your opponent is much more likely to have 7 lascannon shots in range of an exorcist than they are to have 54 bolt rifle shots in range of retributors.
Well That is given since they are needed for battle line, They be in front of Celestian squad, getting +4 invuln from Junith and celestine. As long as the squads are 6" within both of them. The main point of it is a tau tactic celestian squad acting like drones, can't pic of HQs easyly and I don't think tau can bring back drones as hospataller can bring back 1 a round. Keeps your Celestine and junith from getting mortal wounds too.
Just be worried about characters getting hit by multi damage weapons. Then your celestians will start dropping in droves. Get hit by meltagun? Could easily lose 6 celestian in one go.
Well That is given since they are needed for battle line, They be in front of Celestian squad, getting +4 invuln from Junith and celestine. As long as the squads are 6" within both of them. The main point of it is a tau tactic celestian squad acting like drones, can't pic of HQs easyly and I don't think tau can bring back drones as hospataller can bring back 1 a round. Keeps your Celestine and junith from getting mortal wounds too.
Just be worried about characters getting hit by multi damage weapons. Then your celestians will start dropping in droves. Get hit by meltagun? Could easily lose 6 celestian in one go.
That is true. I will have to tweak it.. Hope fully by time celestine and Junith are in their faces, it won't be too late. I might have to put zephyem squad or two in to go behind the lines to keep them occupied
Your rets getting FFed? Good. Valorous Heart rets LOVE being focus fired. Take a squad of 10 and watch an ironhands player use literally all of their anti-infantry firepower on them and kill 3 sisters. Watch an IF player tear his hair out over 3 thunderfire cannons and 3 whirlwinds failing to kill 10 models, even with ignores cover. Most common anti-infantry weapons in the game are AP-2, so they'll just bounce off the Rets. Even if they do get to the meltas, a hospitaller pays for herself bringing back 1 model.
Exorcists are actually much more fragile in practice than MM rets.
I'm not convinced this is true.
And part of this is also almost exclusively because of the Space Marine meta, where we're kind of tailoring to face Space Marines. If you're going to come up against Guard, with a lot of AP0 high-efficiency anti-infantry weapons, I expect Exorcists to win out dramatically in terms of survivability, similar for Tyranids, Tau, Eldar, Orks, and basically everybody except Necrons and Space Marines.
Of course, Space Marines are dominating the meta at like 70% of all lists, so tailoring to oppose Space Marines isn't a bad idea. You're vastly more likely to come across Space Marines than any of the other factions, especially in a high-power setting.
Anyway, it takes an average of 7 Lascannon/Laser Destroyer [or 25 Illiastas Cannon/Stormcannon] hits to service an Exorcist, and an average of 54 bolt rifle [or any anti-infantry weapon] hits or 18 Illiastas Cannon/Stormcannon hits to service a Ret Squad. [Both Valorous Heart & Supported]
Just to drive this point home, in cover, because a lot of armies still don't ignore cover, it takes 60 rend -2 or lower WOUNDS to kill an entire VH dominion squad. Most armies don't have anywhere near that much anti-infantry, and the ones that do have it on extremely short range shots (i.e. 6 flamer/hb centurions, 30 boys). Armies that do ignore cover tend to bring even less dedicated anti-infantry because why wouldn't they? Ignoring cover means most of the game's infantry just melt, even marines. So it's even better against non-marine armies that don't rock a free extra AP on all of their shots (usually). Necrons and Dark Eldar are the only armies that have widespread enough AP-3 to dodge VH but then they should probably be bouncing off of our 4++ AND lacking the number of shots/rerolls necessary to wipe the entire squad in one turn without leaving them open to massive counter attack.
And you say 54 bolt rifle hits like that's not a frack ton of shots. Even rerolling all hits (which most marine armies generally don't bother with against us) that's still THIRTY rapid fire range intercessors. Meanwhile 7 lascannon hits is just the Chaplain dreads they were bringing anyway, from anywhere on the table. If they're not IF it's 88 shots or FORTY FOUR Rapid fire range intercessors.
I've used a 10 girl strong dominion squad in multiple games so far and never had it die in shooting. I've lost 2 exorcists in every one of those games. Both units are good, but the dominions are WAY harder to shift in practice the same way that the exorcist does a lot more damage.
Well That is given since they are needed for battle line, They be in front of Celestian squad, getting +4 invuln from Junith and celestine. As long as the squads are 6" within both of them. The main point of it is a tau tactic celestian squad acting like drones, can't pic of HQs easyly and I don't think tau can bring back drones as hospataller can bring back 1 a round. Keeps your Celestine and junith from getting mortal wounds too.
Just be worried about characters getting hit by multi damage weapons. Then your celestians will start dropping in droves. Get hit by meltagun? Could easily lose 6 celestian in one go.
Fun fact, this is one of the most efficient ways to kill intercessors in cover for us. Fire an Exorcist into an IH character dread and let them Cogitated martyrdom the damage off. Bam, just killed a tenner of intercessors. If you can actually get to a chaplain dread with something like Seraphim, it's more efficient than shooting the meltas at the intercessors.
Sim-Life wrote: Running Junith forces you to build around Martyred Lady, so keep that in mind. You'd probably want large squads of sisters in this case.
Well That is given since they are needed for battle line, They be in front of Celestian squad, getting +4 invuln from Junith and celestine. As long as the squads are 6" within both of them. The main point of it is a tau tactic celestian squad acting like drones, can't pic of HQs easyly and I don't think tau can bring back drones as hospataller can bring back 1 a round. Keeps your Celestine and junith from getting mortal wounds too.
Taikishi wrote: So, with this being the (as for now) final verdict on Miracle Dice, is there any reason to take Incensor cherubs? One AoF per phase and unless you have a Similacrum or are near the Triumph, you can replace one die.
Chance to get a die from sacred rose?
You'd need a Simulacrum of the Triumph nearby to help.
Which is why I'm so confused as to what people are complaining about. There was already little reason to take it without a Simulacrum anyway, as they work pretty perfect together for early game MD efficiency, but are otherwise difficult to maximize on their own.
Think if it as you're giving your squads a 5 point upgrade to perform an Act for all of them turn 1 without needing a pool to do so.
It's also fun, imo
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sim-Life wrote: Running Junith forces you to build around Martyred Lady, so keep that in mind. You'd probably want large squads of sisters in this case.
Only for her reroll aura, so if you have other sources of that or don't care, she will still provide the invuln boost to everybody else. For whatever that is worth to you.
well +4 invuln will be good against rend army.
Celestians can't Bodyguard Celestine and Junith is going to take all the multi-wound damage your opponent can target her with, so I don't see working the way you want it to
Anyway, it takes an average of 7 Lascannon/Laser Destroyer [or 25 Illiastas Cannon/Stormcannon] hits to service an Exorcist, and an average of 54 bolt rifle [or any anti-infantry weapon] hits or 18 Illiastas Cannon/Stormcannon hits to service a Ret Squad. [Both Valorous Heart & Supported]
Lammia wrote: Celestians can't Bodyguard Celestine and Junith is going to take all the multi-wound damage your opponent can target her with, so I don't see working the way you want it to
Mind you junith won't be easily shot though being character. Cold star commander is main threat.
Just to drive this point home, in cover, because a lot of armies still don't ignore cover, it takes 60 rend -2 or lower WOUNDS to kill an entire VH dominion squad. Most armies don't have anywhere near that much anti-infantry, and the ones that do have it on extremely short range shots (i.e. 6 flamer/hb centurions, 30 boys). Armies that do ignore cover tend to bring even less dedicated anti-infantry because why wouldn't they? Ignoring cover means most of the game's infantry just melt, even marines. So it's even better against non-marine armies that don't rock a free extra AP on all of their shots (usually). Necrons and Dark Eldar are the only armies that have widespread enough AP-3 to dodge VH but then they should probably be bouncing off of our 4++ AND lacking the number of shots/rerolls necessary to wipe the entire squad in one turn without leaving them open to massive counter attack.
And you say 54 bolt rifle hits like that's not a frack ton of shots. Even rerolling all hits (which most marine armies generally don't bother with against us) that's still THIRTY rapid fire range intercessors. Meanwhile 7 lascannon hits is just the Chaplain dreads they were bringing anyway, from anywhere on the table. If they're not IF it's 88 shots or FORTY FOUR Rapid fire range intercessors.
I've used a 10 girl strong dominion squad in multiple games so far and never had it die in shooting. I've lost 2 exorcists in every one of those games. Both units are good, but the dominions are WAY harder to shift in practice the same way that the exorcist does a lot more damage.
54 bolt rifle hits [or 59 shots with support as stated more recently], is about 15 supported Intercessors. The first ten can stratagem for 40 shots total, followed by the second 5 just shooting.
I don't think 59 shots or 54 hits or whatever is a lot of shooting. An Imperial Guard Rifleman squad outputs 18 at long and 37 at short [for completeness sake, it takes 144 shots from unsupported Imperial Guardsmen to destroy the Rets], a Intercessor squad puts out between 10 to 40 shots at any range, etc.
I do think more than 1 Leviathan or 20-something hits from a Caladius are a lot of shooting.
Lammia wrote: Celestians can't Bodyguard Celestine and Junith is going to take all the multi-wound damage your opponent can target her with, so I don't see working the way you want it to
Mind you junith won't be easily shot though being character. Cold star commander is main threat.
Sim-Life wrote: Running Junith forces you to build around Martyred Lady, so keep that in mind. You'd probably want large squads of sisters in this case.
Well That is given since they are needed for battle line, They be in front of Celestian squad, getting +4 invuln from Junith and celestine. As long as the squads are 6" within both of them. The main point of it is a tau tactic celestian squad acting like drones, can't pic of HQs easyly and I don't think tau can bring back drones as hospataller can bring back 1 a round. Keeps your Celestine and junith from getting mortal wounds too.
Taikishi wrote: So, with this being the (as for now) final verdict on Miracle Dice, is there any reason to take Incensor cherubs? One AoF per phase and unless you have a Similacrum or are near the Triumph, you can replace one die.
Chance to get a die from sacred rose?
You'd need a Simulacrum of the Triumph nearby to help.
Which is why I'm so confused as to what people are complaining about. There was already little reason to take it without a Simulacrum anyway, as they work pretty perfect together for early game MD efficiency, but are otherwise difficult to maximize on their own.
Think if it as you're giving your squads a 5 point upgrade to perform an Act for all of them turn 1 without needing a pool to do so.
It's also fun, imo
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sim-Life wrote: Running Junith forces you to build around Martyred Lady, so keep that in mind. You'd probably want large squads of sisters in this case.
Only for her reroll aura, so if you have other sources of that or don't care, she will still provide the invuln boost to everybody else. For whatever that is worth to you.
well +4 invuln will be good against rend army.
Celestians can't Bodyguard Celestine and Junith is going to take all the multi-wound damage your opponent can target her with, so I don't see working the way you want it to
If your throwing lots of krak grunades, or have army Heavly on D3 and D6 damage. Like a tank army, then yes. I would have to think this through Take army would fear celestine, so it would be main target and I would have to even out my army and more melta guns. But to focus just her and juneth to the point that your just wiping out the celestine squad with body guard in one or two shots, isn't really good strategy. That is if you are not rolling 1 for you d 6 or d3. Plus on a +5 it negates that wound on body guard skill. With simulacrum, I can save atleast 1 with a miracle dice. I will have to see how I can keep replenshing my dice . Also I am sure I won't always roll under a 5 for body guard. Like I said, it is untested
I would also have to see what other squads would be good to keep them worrying about other stuff other than just celestine and junith. enough to get them in close combat.
Lammia wrote: Celestians can't Bodyguard Celestine and Junith is going to take all the multi-wound damage your opponent can target her with, so I don't see working the way you want it to
Mind you junith won't be easily shot though being character. Cold star commander is main threat.
Junith is still a vehicle
So? She's 7 wound character. Being vehicle is irrelevant. What matters is do you have less than 10W or not if you are character.
You could be super heavy as long as you have 9 wounds and you won't be shot.
Lammia wrote: Celestians can't Bodyguard Celestine and Junith is going to take all the multi-wound damage your opponent can target her with, so I don't see working the way you want it to
Mind you junith won't be easily shot though being character. Cold star commander is main threat.
Junith is still a vehicle
crap, I didn't realize she was a vehicle, I can't bodyguard her, just celestine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I will still have good invuln for almost whole army, and protecting celestine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: She does have +4 invuln and +3 save so still going be hard to kill her.
Lammia wrote: Celestians can't Bodyguard Celestine and Junith is going to take all the multi-wound damage your opponent can target her with, so I don't see working the way you want it to
Mind you junith won't be easily shot though being character. Cold star commander is main threat.
Junith is still a vehicle
crap, I didn't realize she was a vehicle, I can't bodyguard her, just celestine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I will still have good invuln for almost whole army, and protecting celestine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: She does have +4 invuln and +3 save so still going be hard to kill her.
Honestly all the Sisters characters are backline support. Even Celestine is probably better held back till turn 3 or 4. If your group has the terrain Junith looks fairly easy to keep out of LoS. Keep her hidden and provide invuln buffs to stuff like Exos and backline objective holders while Celestine buffs midfield.
Lammia wrote: Celestians can't Bodyguard Celestine and Junith is going to take all the multi-wound damage your opponent can target her with, so I don't see working the way you want it to
Mind you junith won't be easily shot though being character. Cold star commander is main threat.
Junith is still a vehicle
So? She's 7 wound character. Being vehicle is irrelevant. What matters is do you have less than 10W or not if you are character.
You could be super heavy as long as you have 9 wounds and you won't be shot.
Lammia wrote: Celestians can't Bodyguard Celestine and Junith is going to take all the multi-wound damage your opponent can target her with, so I don't see working the way you want it to
Mind you junith won't be easily shot though being character. Cold star commander is main threat.
Junith is still a vehicle
crap, I didn't realize she was a vehicle, I can't bodyguard her, just celestine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I will still have good invuln for almost whole army, and protecting celestine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: She does have +4 invuln and +3 save so still going be hard to kill her.
You can Bodyguard Junith with OoOML Celestians, she's an Order of Our Martyred Lady character. Celestine doesn't have an <Order> keyword though, so she can't be. Only Geminae Superia can take wounds for Celestine.
Only for bodyguard. But short of snipers opponent isn't shooting junith as she's 7W character and ergo can't be shot unless she's closest target. You really need to screw your positioning for her to be closest target. Surround her with units. No shooting at her. Frankly the bodyguard is irrelevant as you won't be fired at to begin with.
Xfrawg wrote: So I have been sisters since 97, I have the old celestine model and what is left of my metal army. I am happy that sisters finally getting what they deserve some New Models. That said.
The way I am building my arm and I have not put this to the test since Not all the key models are out yet. This would be a 2k+ point game.
A tactic I think would be good for a core army would be celestine and Junith. Having them 12" apart For +1 to shield of faith with two squads of celestian in the middle to take the hits for their HQ and their invuln is +4 due to celestine and junith. Behind the celestian squad is two hospitallers bringing back celestian squads. This would take for ever for tanks or any squad to kill off the core of the army. I have yet to decided how I will do the other parts of the army. Maybe Repentia squads on each side of the HQ on the out side making their invuln +5. Two Diologist in the middle as well.
This tactic is untested though. In my mind it looks good.. Maybe for a table with little scenery. I would have to see how it plays out in a city setting. Luckly the +1 to invuln says within 6" not Wholly withing like they do in AOS.
Others have given good info on auras and unit abilities... as for deployment, I'd flip your plan inside out. Put your characters in the middle with big Sisters squads in front and big Celestians to either side. Running Martyred Lady, push squads forward and outward for range management and trail a few models to anchor the aura. Take a few hits to trigger the ML bonus and combine with stratagems to optimize bonuses and rerolls. By deploying characters in the middle with bodies and guns outside, you can keep the aura bubble together or split it two ways to respond to the flow of the battle. Celestine and Junith, an extra Canoness for melee punch, a Missionary to prop up your big squads, and you're on your way to two battalions. Maybe 3x10 BSS and 2x10 Celestians up front to cash in on all those extra hits from ML and 3x5 BSS to screen your Exos in the back. I might even like Holy Trinity up front... 10-15 Sisters with +1 to hit and wound is solid against the right target.
54 bolt rifle hits [or 59 shots with support as stated more recently], is about 15 supported Intercessors. The first ten can stratagem for 40 shots total, followed by the second 5 just shooting.
I'm not sure getting someone to burn 2-3cp to have an average chance of killing a sub 200 point squad that your army doesn't hinge on, with the caveat that the squad is over extended and has probably already burned up its ammo cherubs with its first volley, and are out of cover, and in rapid fire range, is something i'm really very worried about.
The real threat to sisters is units sniping out the support characters, not blowing all their cp to clear chaff infantry.
Lammia wrote: Celestians can't Bodyguard Celestine and Junith is going to take all the multi-wound damage your opponent can target her with, so I don't see working the way you want it to
Mind you junith won't be easily shot though being character. Cold star commander is main threat.
Junith is still a vehicle
So? She's 7 wound character. Being vehicle is irrelevant. What matters is do you have less than 10W or not if you are character.
You could be super heavy as long as you have 9 wounds and you won't be shot.
Lammia wrote: Celestians can't Bodyguard Celestine and Junith is going to take all the multi-wound damage your opponent can target her with, so I don't see working the way you want it to
Mind you junith won't be easily shot though being character. Cold star commander is main threat.
Junith is still a vehicle
crap, I didn't realize she was a vehicle, I can't bodyguard her, just celestine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I will still have good invuln for almost whole army, and protecting celestine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: She does have +4 invuln and +3 save so still going be hard to kill her.
You can Bodyguard Junith with OoOML Celestians, she's an Order of Our Martyred Lady character. Celestine doesn't have an <Order> keyword though, so she can't be. Only Geminae Superia can take wounds for Celestine.
Your right, I guess celestine can't too,. Yeah, there goes my whole plan. Re routing new plan lol. I am glad I have people I can discuss this with, since I am the only sister player in my local area.
Only for bodyguard. But short of snipers opponent isn't shooting junith as she's 7W character and ergo can't be shot unless she's closest target. You really need to screw your positioning for her to be closest target. Surround her with units. No shooting at her. Frankly the bodyguard is irrelevant as you won't be fired at to begin with.
Hmmm... seems right. Though SM armies and a few others will still shoot at her or to make bodyguard relevant.
So pretty much just canonness and superiors can be guarded . I still like having the +4 invuln to pretty much the whole army, So I will keep that in mind.
Only for bodyguard. But short of snipers opponent isn't shooting junith as she's 7W character and ergo can't be shot unless she's closest target. You really need to screw your positioning for her to be closest target. Surround her with units. No shooting at her. Frankly the bodyguard is irrelevant as you won't be fired at to begin with.
Hmmm... seems right. Though SM armies and a few others will still shoot at her or to make bodyguard relevant.
It doesn't matter at this point anyways, Vehicles can't be bodyguard. I don't think.
Xfrawg wrote: So pretty much just canonness and superiors can be guarded . I still like having the +4 invuln to pretty much the whole army, So I will keep that in mind.
Only for bodyguard. But short of snipers opponent isn't shooting junith as she's 7W character and ergo can't be shot unless she's closest target. You really need to screw your positioning for her to be closest target. Surround her with units. No shooting at her. Frankly the bodyguard is irrelevant as you won't be fired at to begin with.
Hmmm... seems right. Though SM armies and a few others will still shoot at her or to make bodyguard relevant.
It doesn't matter at this point anyways, Vehicles can't be bodyguard. I don't think.
The only keywords restrictions are <Order> and Character
Xfrawg wrote: So pretty much just canonness and superiors can be guarded . I still like having the +4 invuln to pretty much the whole army, So I will keep that in mind.
Only for bodyguard. But short of snipers opponent isn't shooting junith as she's 7W character and ergo can't be shot unless she's closest target. You really need to screw your positioning for her to be closest target. Surround her with units. No shooting at her. Frankly the bodyguard is irrelevant as you won't be fired at to begin with.
Hmmm... seems right. Though SM armies and a few others will still shoot at her or to make bodyguard relevant.
It doesn't matter at this point anyways, Vehicles can't be bodyguard. I don't think.
The only keywords restrictions are <Order> and Character
Ah ok, I will keep that in mind, so only Canonness. and her.
Xfrawg wrote: So I have been sisters since 97, I have the old celestine model and what is left of my metal army. I am happy that sisters finally getting what they deserve some New Models. That said.
The way I am building my arm and I have not put this to the test since Not all the key models are out yet. This would be a 2k+ point game.
A tactic I think would be good for a core army would be celestine and Junith. Having them 12" apart For +1 to shield of faith with two squads of celestian in the middle to take the hits for their HQ and their invuln is +4 due to celestine and junith. Behind the celestian squad is two hospitallers bringing back celestian squads. This would take for ever for tanks or any squad to kill off the core of the army. I have yet to decided how I will do the other parts of the army. Maybe Repentia squads on each side of the HQ on the out side making their invuln +5. Two Diologist in the middle as well.
This tactic is untested though. In my mind it looks good.. Maybe for a table with little scenery. I would have to see how it plays out in a city setting. Luckly the +1 to invuln says within 6" not Wholly withing like they do in AOS.
Others have given good info on auras and unit abilities... as for deployment, I'd flip your plan inside out. Put your characters in the middle with big Sisters squads in front and big Celestians to either side. Running Martyred Lady, push squads forward and outward for range management and trail a few models to anchor the aura. Take a few hits to trigger the ML bonus and combine with stratagems to optimize bonuses and rerolls. By deploying characters in the middle with bodies and guns outside, you can keep the aura bubble together or split it two ways to respond to the flow of the battle. Celestine and Junith, an extra Canoness for melee punch, a Missionary to prop up your big squads, and you're on your way to two battalions. Maybe 3x10 BSS and 2x10 Celestians up front to cash in on all those extra hits from ML and 3x5 BSS to screen your Exos in the back. I might even like Holy Trinity up front... 10-15 Sisters with +1 to hit and wound is solid against the right target.
Lammia wrote: Repentia Superior and Imagifier can also be Bodyguard-ed
That's a really good point for VH though. I'd say in that instance you need at least a few Celestians running around to protect your imagifiers, since they're so critical to the rest of the list.
Especially if your imagifiers are the +1 strength variety. Celestians benefit enormously from that. 2 attacks per model, 3 on the superior (and potentially four with the chainsword, of course) makes the increase from 3 to 4 pretty massive. Especially if they get rerolls on to-hit for also being near a canoness.
What are we liking for Celestian loadout? Assume Bloody Rose, a Canoness and maybe, if the circumstances are right, their stratagem, plus the Imagifier for melee. Melta, melta, combimelta, simulacrum? Mix in a combi flamer or hand flamer? Inferno to blast someone in melee? Or just stormbolters on the cheap?
Also, if I have a simulacrum and two meltas, can I drop two MD sixes for Overwatch? That makes a dialogus a bit more compelling, if she could serve a bunch of squads with melta both in the Shooting phase and in Overwatch.
MacPhail wrote: What are we liking for Celestian loadout? Assume Bloody Rose, a Canoness and maybe, if the circumstances are right, their stratagem, plus the Imagifier for melee. Melta, melta, combimelta, simulacrum? Mix in a combi flamer or hand flamer? Inferno to blast someone in melee? Or just stormbolters on the cheap?
Also, if I have a simulacrum and two meltas, can I drop two MD sixes for Overwatch? That makes a dialogus a bit more compelling, if she could serve a bunch of squads with melta both in the Shooting phase and in Overwatch.
celestian loadouts: typically nothing or an inferno pistol, if the squad is naked a combi plasma is doable, a hand flamer in any squad with a meltagun to unlock holy trinity is nice.
you simply don't want to get sisters dug in so any close combat weapon you probably aren't going to get much mileage from, if I had a squad of celestians the captain may get a close combat weapon as they will be right up there with the canoness's eating shots, but regular squads? nah
a simulacrum lets that squad make an additional miracle every phase, so if they are the first miracle that phase, yes, you could use two, you should take that into account when building your squads, if you are taking a meltagun and a melta pistol, another meltagun is too many for you to miracle, so it may be better to stick it in another squad, if you are building miracle dice/banner heavy, you want to spread all those weapons out.
MacPhail wrote: What are we liking for Celestian loadout? Assume Bloody Rose, a Canoness and maybe, if the circumstances are right, their stratagem, plus the Imagifier for melee. Melta, melta, combimelta, simulacrum? Mix in a combi flamer or hand flamer? Inferno to blast someone in melee? Or just stormbolters on the cheap?
Also, if I have a simulacrum and two meltas, can I drop two MD sixes for Overwatch? That makes a dialogus a bit more compelling, if she could serve a bunch of squads with melta both in the Shooting phase and in Overwatch.
celestian loadouts: typically nothing or an inferno pistol, if the squad is naked a combi plasma is doable, a hand flamer in any squad with a meltagun to unlock holy trinity is nice.
you simply don't want to get sisters dug in so any close combat weapon you probably aren't going to get much mileage from, if I had a squad of celestians the captain may get a close combat weapon as they will be right up there with the canoness's eating shots, but regular squads? nah
a simulacrum lets that squad make an additional miracle every phase, so if they are the first miracle that phase, yes, you could use two, you should take that into account when building your squads, if you are taking a meltagun and a melta pistol, another meltagun is too many for you to miracle, so it may be better to stick it in another squad, if you are building miracle dice/banner heavy, you want to spread all those weapons out.
He is talking bloody rose.
Celestian bloody roses is something that your opponent will really really not want dug into HIS forces. Each of those girls headbuts 1,2 MEQs. If you give a sword to the superior, she alone gets 3 heads home. All of this just with an imagifier, don't even need the canoness. With a missionary, 10 celestians murder a 10 man intercessor squad (they kill 9 actually, but when your squad disappears like that due to an unhealthy amount of crazied girls, you tend to forget that you shouldn't know no fear).
Xfrawg wrote: So pretty much just canonness and superiors can be guarded . I still like having the +4 invuln to pretty much the whole army, So I will keep that in mind.
I have picked up quite alot of models for my sister's army and not really sure what direction to go with it.
Models to choose from
SOB big box set...
4 boxes of BSS 2 boxes of retributors.
This is what I've painted so far.
I'm currently painting up repentia but I'm thinking of converting the repentia superior into another cannonness.
The basis of my list will be horde sisters as I have 50 infantry to plonk down at the start. I can't decide on squads with 2 SB or some with meltas or heavy bolter to sit on objectives.
Another difficult choice is how to arm the rets. Definitely want a squad with 4 Multi meltas for sure but the second squad I can't decide on 4 heavy flamers or 4 heavy bolters.
A rhino w flamer sisters can do work. Really strong work when you consider the way you can now protect them when they disembark bu forming a reticle with a couple rhinos. The range thing goes a long damn way with that unit. You can use them in Argent Shroud detachments to great effect as well.
Grundz wrote: you simply don't want to get sisters dug
Bloody Rose Celestians with an Imagifier and Canoness disagree with you.
Per five-member Celestian squad, that's 17 attacks at strength 4 on the charge, all failed to-hits re-rolled, all with AP-1. If hte Superior has a power axe or power maul instead of the chainsword, she practically ignores power armor and also has even higher strength, again with rerolled attacks.
That's PER five member Celestian squad. They rarely exceed 100 points each. Frankly, properly supported Celestians are better assault squads than most Marines!
MacPhail wrote: What are we liking for Celestian loadout? Assume Bloody Rose, a Canoness and maybe, if the circumstances are right, their stratagem, plus the Imagifier for melee. Melta, melta, combimelta, simulacrum? Mix in a combi flamer or hand flamer? Inferno to blast someone in melee? Or just stormbolters on the cheap?
Also, if I have a simulacrum and two meltas, can I drop two MD sixes for Overwatch? That makes a dialogus a bit more compelling, if she could serve a bunch of squads with melta both in the Shooting phase and in Overwatch.
celestian loadouts: typically nothing or an inferno pistol, if the squad is naked a combi plasma is doable, a hand flamer in any squad with a meltagun to unlock holy trinity is nice.
you simply don't want to get sisters dug in so any close combat weapon you probably aren't going to get much mileage from, if I had a squad of celestians the captain may get a close combat weapon as they will be right up there with the canoness's eating shots, but regular squads? nah
a simulacrum lets that squad make an additional miracle every phase, so if they are the first miracle that phase, yes, you could use two, you should take that into account when building your squads, if you are taking a meltagun and a melta pistol, another meltagun is too many for you to miracle, so it may be better to stick it in another squad, if you are building miracle dice/banner heavy, you want to spread all those weapons out.
He is talking bloody rose.
Celestian bloody roses is something that your opponent will really really not want dug into HIS forces. Each of those girls headbuts 1,2 MEQs. If you give a sword to the superior, she alone gets 3 heads home. All of this just with an imagifier, don't even need the canoness. With a missionary, 10 celestians murder a 10 man intercessor squad (they kill 9 actually, but when your squad disappears like that due to an unhealthy amount of crazied girls, you tend to forget that you shouldn't know no fear).
Yep, this is what I was after. They're worth their points in melee alone, and I'm trying to maximize the investment in the shooting phase. I'm toying with melta, flamer, inferno, chainsword, and simulacrum. Yes, it drives up the cost of the unit, but with all those rerolls and buffs, I think it gives good versatility. Holy Trinity is solid against MEQs, and it's cheaper than Exceptional Proficiency. With a simulacrum, I have the option to double down on MDs when the target is right OR give the first MD to an Exorcist, the inferno let's me drop MDs in the shooting phase while in melee, and if I run two such squads, I can spread the MDs around to compensate for swapping in a flamer.
Celestian bloody roses is something that your opponent will really really not want dug into HIS forces. Each of those girls headbuts 1,2 MEQs. If you give a sword to the superior, she alone gets 3 heads home. All of this just with an imagifier, don't even need the canoness. With a missionary, 10 celestians murder a 10 man intercessor squad (they kill 9 actually, but when your squad disappears like that due to an unhealthy amount of crazied girls, you tend to forget that you shouldn't know no fear).
4 swings per celestian, 5 on the leader (bloody rose, +1str, missionary)
hitting on 3's, wounding on 4's ap-1, and +1 to wound stratagem
leader has a power sword
thats 9.66 wounds / 4.8 intercessors dead
what am I missing thats almost doubling their output?
Grundz wrote: you simply don't want to get sisters dug
Bloody Rose Celestians with an Imagifier and Canoness disagree with you.
Per five-member Celestian squad, that's 17 attacks at strength 4 on the charge, all failed to-hits re-rolled, all with AP-1. If hte Superior has a power axe or power maul instead of the chainsword, she practically ignores power armor and also has even higher strength, again with rerolled attacks.
That's PER five member Celestian squad. They rarely exceed 100 points each. Frankly, properly supported Celestians are better assault squads than most Marines!
The -1 AP stacks nicely with Divine Guidance, too. Assuming you've lined up within charge range, you can choose Rapid Fire for volume of dice, or Pistols to go fishing for 6s for -2 AP, and then use them the next round with survivors still engaged. I guess Exceptional Proficiency lets you REALLY go fishing for 6s, but it still doesn't seem worth it...
I am carious Simulacrum, says you can perform a extra faith for your sister unit that phase. So if you had one in all Normal sisters, celestian, dominion squads... would each of those squad get and extra one? If given that you had enough MD to do so?
Automatically Appended Next Post: if that is the case, why would you never want one in there?
Xfrawg wrote: I am carious Simulacrum, says you can perform a extra faith for your sister unit that phase. So if you had one in all Normal sisters, celestian, dominion squads... would each of those squad get and extra one? If given that you had enough MD to do so?
Xfrawg wrote: I am carious Simulacrum, says you can perform a extra faith for your sister unit that phase. So if you had one in all Normal sisters, celestian, dominion squads... would each of those squad get and extra one? If given that you had enough MD to do so?
not quite, the text says they get one "extra" miracle per phase
so the first squad to use one, gets the normal act of faith, then also the "extra" one if they had a banner
all of the other squads with the simulacrum would only get the "extra" one
so you have to be a little careful with the order of operations
Xfrawg wrote: I am carious Simulacrum, says you can perform a extra faith for your sister unit that phase. So if you had one in all Normal sisters, celestian, dominion squads... would each of those squad get and extra one? If given that you had enough MD to do so?
Yes. That's the whole point of it.
K, I tend to read things wrong, and always have to be corrected. If I don't do things over and over, I forget to do stuff. So learning or re learning armies is tough for me.
Xfrawg wrote: I am carious Simulacrum, says you can perform a extra faith for your sister unit that phase. So if you had one in all Normal sisters, celestian, dominion squads... would each of those squad get and extra one? If given that you had enough MD to do so?
not quite, the text says they get one "extra" miracle per phase
so the first squad to use one, gets the normal act of faith, then also the "extra" one if they had a banner
all of the other squads with the simulacrum would only get the "extra" one
so you have to be a little careful with the order of operations
That I figured. It says,"If a model in this uit has a Simulacrum Imperialis then once per phase you can perform one Act of Faith for this unit, even if you have already performed one or more acts of faith in that phase." So if I performed it say on a Cannoness, can the rest with the bannor have perform one? That is nice, Though I doubt things like that won't happen till like turn 2 or 3.
Xfrawg wrote: I am carious Simulacrum, says you can perform a extra faith for your sister unit that phase. So if you had one in all Normal sisters, celestian, dominion squads... would each of those squad get and extra one? If given that you had enough MD to do so?
not quite, the text says they get one "extra" miracle per phase
so the first squad to use one, gets the normal act of faith, then also the "extra" one if they had a banner
all of the other squads with the simulacrum would only get the "extra" one
so you have to be a little careful with the order of operations
In the Shooting phase, I usually go Exorcist first with the 1/phase default MD, or maybe a Character model with a useful gun in range, than scan around and see where a squad with a simulacrum could make good use another. Given the multiple rerolls and buffs, I now see how likely it is that a Celestian squad in a good position should steal that initial MD from the Exos and use the simulacrum to double up. I think I'm sold on simulacra over cherubs for the 5 point squad-level investment.
Xfrawg wrote: I am carious Simulacrum, says you can perform a extra faith for your sister unit that phase. So if you had one in all Normal sisters, celestian, dominion squads... would each of those squad get and extra one? If given that you had enough MD to do so?
not quite, the text says they get one "extra" miracle per phase
so the first squad to use one, gets the normal act of faith, then also the "extra" one if they had a banner
all of the other squads with the simulacrum would only get the "extra" one
so you have to be a little careful with the order of operations
In the Shooting phase, I usually go Exorcist first with the 1/phase default MD, or maybe a Character model with a useful gun in range, than scan around and see where a squad with a simulacrum could make good use another. Given the multiple rerolls and buffs, I now see how likely it is that a Celestian squad in a good position should steal that initial MD from the Exos and use the simulacrum to double up. I think I'm sold on simulacra over cherubs for the 5 point squad-level investment.
Unless you use PP then 5 points don't matter. Unless you are in a tourny, then yes. Do tournys use PP or just normal points?
It really depends on what you are up against. I see Exorcist good only against HQ and vehicles and open terrain boards. Where having good squad of Retributors or even Dominions that are only meltas would be great all around in any board set up. Transport in open areas with Immortal with twin meltas. Then in heavy city setting, which I love to fight in, then they can be sheltered easly.
Exorcist benefits in city terrain from higher speed though. 6" can struggle to reach position where they get LOS to enemy. So it's not all so exorcist for open terrain
Exorcist also nice against stuff like aggressors with T5 lots of wounds and where you would prefer >24" away since if they survive they will delete tons of stuff. Even VH retributors will melt quickly when those buggers shoot. Even in cover and they have to move(ultramarines don't care) still 4-5 dead. If you are out of cover you are dead.
Celestian bloody roses is something that your opponent will really really not want dug into HIS forces. Each of those girls headbuts 1,2 MEQs. If you give a sword to the superior, she alone gets 3 heads home. All of this just with an imagifier, don't even need the canoness. With a missionary, 10 celestians murder a 10 man intercessor squad (they kill 9 actually, but when your squad disappears like that due to an unhealthy amount of crazied girls, you tend to forget that you shouldn't know no fear).
4 swings per celestian, 5 on the leader (bloody rose, +1str, missionary) hitting on 3's, wounding on 4's ap-1, and +1 to wound stratagem leader has a power sword
thats 9.66 wounds / 4.8 intercessors dead what am I missing thats almost doubling their output?
Celestians can reroll all hits and wounds.
4 attacks per girl at Rerollable 3s to hit and rerollable 3s to wound, with AP-1 multiplied by 9 girls are 14,4 wounds. The superiors with 5 attacks at AP-4 adds 4 more wounds.
The total is slightly above 9 intercessors killed, 30 boyz/gaunts deleted, 11 wounds on a Leman Russ, a dead flyrant, a wiped squad of 9 shining spears, 10 wounds on a disco lord. There are few things in the game that want to be near that 104 point unit.
tneva82 wrote: Exorcist benefits in city terrain from higher speed though. 6" can struggle to reach position where they get LOS to enemy. So it's not all so exorcist for open terrain
Exorcist also nice against stuff like aggressors with T5 lots of wounds and where you would prefer >24" away since if they survive they will delete tons of stuff. Even VH retributors will melt quickly when those buggers shoot. Even in cover and they have to move(ultramarines don't care) still 4-5 dead. If you are out of cover you are dead.
That is where immolator comes in for retrebutors. If you run Dominions squad, They get that extra boost the first round. Use that one to Advance, then normal movement second. That way you could the most move 18 if your roll for advance is good. so First round 12+, Where exoist can do the same. Just Dominion squad can go in and out cover easier.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then you would move 6" sure where exocist would continue 12" but at that point, you are far up enough. If you want do deal with aggressers too, use zephyrim's sky strike abilities to bog them down.
tneva82 wrote: Exorcist benefits in city terrain from higher speed though. 6" can struggle to reach position where they get LOS to enemy. So it's not all so exorcist for open terrain
Exorcist also nice against stuff like aggressors with T5 lots of wounds and where you would prefer >24" away since if they survive they will delete tons of stuff. Even VH retributors will melt quickly when those buggers shoot. Even in cover and they have to move(ultramarines don't care) still 4-5 dead. If you are out of cover you are dead.
That is where immolator comes in for retrebutors. If you run Dominions squad, They get that extra boost the first round. Use that one to Advance, then normal movement second. That way you could the most move 18 if your roll for advance is good. so First round 12+, Where exoist can do the same. Just Dominion squad can go in and out cover easier.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then you would move 6" sure where exocist would continue 12" but at that point, you are far up enough. If you want do deal with aggressers too, use zephyrim's sky strike abilities to bog them down.
I'm not sure what you mean, but dominions no longer boost transports.
Also, i wouldn't assault aggressors with zephs if i didn't have an inquisitor to stop overwatch.
tneva82 wrote: Exorcist benefits in city terrain from higher speed though. 6" can struggle to reach position where they get LOS to enemy. So it's not all so exorcist for open terrain
Exorcist also nice against stuff like aggressors with T5 lots of wounds and where you would prefer >24" away since if they survive they will delete tons of stuff. Even VH retributors will melt quickly when those buggers shoot. Even in cover and they have to move(ultramarines don't care) still 4-5 dead. If you are out of cover you are dead.
That is where immolator comes in for retrebutors. If you run Dominions squad, They get that extra boost the first round. Use that one to Advance, then normal movement second. That way you could the most move 18 if your roll for advance is good. so First round 12+, Where exoist can do the same. Just Dominion squad can go in and out cover easier.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Then you would move 6" sure where exocist would continue 12" but at that point, you are far up enough. If you want do deal with aggressers too, use zephyrim's sky strike abilities to bog them down.
I'm not sure what you mean, but dominions no longer boost transports.
Also, i wouldn't assault aggressors with zephs if i didn't have an inquisitor to stop overwatch.
Dominions have vanguard, you can move as it is movement phase the first round. So if you advance that, +6 that then during movement phase just normal 6"
Ah I don't know much about 40k and such, I am not that good are remembering other factions, unless I go against them over and over. I am just coming back to 40k from Aos.
6 aggressors average 108 shots when bolters. That's...nasty. Not to mention if you drop into them from deepstrike they shoot once at 4+ for added fun. so you will be taking 108 shots hitting on 4+, wound on 3+ and you save on 3+, then another round hitting on 6's. That's 16 dead zephyr. Not safe prospect at all. Even without auspex scan stratagem overwatch alone kills 4.
And that's without rerolls. Imagine if they have reroll aura nearby for hit rolls...
(hopefully didn't misremember any rule)
So in short: Don't deep strike and charge them! At least with move+charge only overwatch. So 10 girls charge in, you lose 4. Remaining 6 attacks 19 times, hit say 13, wound about half so let's say you are lucky and get 7. That's 2 dead aggressor out of 6. Then you face lotsa power fist attacks.
tneva82 wrote: 6 aggressors average 108 shots when bolters. That's...nasty. Not to mention if you drop into them from deepstrike they shoot once at 4+ for added fun. so you will be taking 108 shots hitting on 4+, wound on 3+ and you save on 3+, then another round hitting on 6's. That's 16 dead zephyr. Not safe prospect at all. Even without auspex scan stratagem overwatch alone kills 4.
And that's without rerolls. Imagine if they have reroll aura nearby for hit rolls...
(hopefully didn't misremember any rule)
So in short: Don't deep strike and charge them! At least with move+charge only overwatch. So 10 girls charge in, you lose 4. Remaining 6 attacks 19 times, hit say 13, wound about half so let's say you are lucky and get 7. That's 2 dead aggressor out of 6. Then you face lotsa power fist attacks.
tneva82 wrote: 6 aggressors average 108 shots when bolters. That's...nasty. Not to mention if you drop into them from deepstrike they shoot once at 4+ for added fun. so you will be taking 108 shots hitting on 4+, wound on 3+ and you save on 3+, then another round hitting on 6's. That's 16 dead zephyr. Not safe prospect at all. Even without auspex scan stratagem overwatch alone kills 4.
And that's without rerolls. Imagine if they have reroll aura nearby for hit rolls...
(hopefully didn't misremember any rule)
So in short: Don't deep strike and charge them! At least with move+charge only overwatch. So 10 girls charge in, you lose 4. Remaining 6 attacks 19 times, hit say 13, wound about half so let's say you are lucky and get 7. That's 2 dead aggressor out of 6. Then you face lotsa power fist attacks.
I see your point! Good to know!
The aggressors shoot ridiculous amount of shots. If you see them accept that anything that starts 23" or less away from bolter variants is going to take tons of shots and assaulting them without Inquisitor to shut down overwatch is seriously bad idea. Flamer variant is bit easier as threat range is just 13" but there they will flat out vaporize target. However those you can charge with zephyr as they can't overwatch beyond 8"...unless they have custom chapter trait that gives them 3" more range. But in that case if you have 2 6's for miracle dices you could still charge them and surprise him by making "impossible" charge. Nobody wants to face 12d6(I think) automatic hits from those flamers in overwatch! But with 12" charge you bypass them. Mwahaha.
Shoot them. Though often have FNP giving banner nearby and then when you kill one it shoots at you on 4+. But primary weapons to shoot down these T5 3+ W3 will be melta weapons and exorcist missiles. And hope he can't buff them to invulnerable(at least blood angels can do that)
Yep, I'll join the chorus on Agressors. If they're on the board, they get my first Exorcist volley. In my first game against them I chose to take out a Las Pred and soften up a Repulsor on turn 1 instead, and they split fire and took nearly three units off the board, including stormbolter Doms, heavy flamer Rets, and most of a big BSS.
MacPhail wrote: Yep, I'll join the chorus on Agressors. If they're on the board, they get my first Exorcist volley. In my first game against them I chose to take out a Las Pred and soften up a Repulsor on turn 1 instead, and they split fire and took nearly three units off the board, including stormbolter Doms, heavy flamer Rets, and most of a big BSS.
Does Exocist need be LoS?
Automatically Appended Next Post: To shoot them? if they are not in cover?
MacPhail wrote: Yep, I'll join the chorus on Agressors. If they're on the board, they get my first Exorcist volley. In my first game against them I chose to take out a Las Pred and soften up a Repulsor on turn 1 instead, and they split fire and took nearly three units off the board, including stormbolter Doms, heavy flamer Rets, and most of a big BSS.
Another nasty combo you might run into. Blood angels, aggressors. For starters they can be given 5++. Then they have the 5+++. Then they have stratagem allowing them to heroic intervene from 6"!!! And then they punch like hell. I made stupid mistake of charging into lone aggressor(rest had died) with knight gallant with plan to stomp more primaris as well. Then the other squad of aggressors heroic intervened(and as they had started more than 12" hadn't been able to declare them as target and couldn't attack them either). Then they flat out vaporized the knight. Lots of attacks(3 per model), rerolls, S8 with +1 to wound...
Just 'cause they aren't iron hands or some other shooty chapter don't ignore aggressors. They shoot lots yes but also hit in melee well
MacPhail wrote: Yep, I'll join the chorus on Agressors. If they're on the board, they get my first Exorcist volley. In my first game against them I chose to take out a Las Pred and soften up a Repulsor on turn 1 instead, and they split fire and took nearly three units off the board, including stormbolter Doms, heavy flamer Rets, and most of a big BSS.
Does Exocist need be LoS?
Automatically Appended Next Post: To shoot them? if they are not in cover?
Yes. Exorcist needs LOS. That's why you have good speed though. The aggressors lumber 5" a turn without advance so not that fast.
If a Canoness with the Beacon of Faith warlord trait is in a vehicle at the start of a turn, does she count as “being on the battlefield” for the purpose of gaining a MD?
davidgr33n wrote: If a Canoness with the Beacon of Faith warlord trait is in a vehicle at the start of a turn, does she count as “being on the battlefield” for the purpose of gaining a MD?
Nope. In vehicle you literally don't exist for rules except when specifically said otherwise.
Btw order of martyred lady stratagem. If character is resurrected via stratagem does effect continue? Stratagem that gives cp when warlord dies specifically says not applied if resurected. Other doesn't.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So with 29.2 tournament attendance chances approaching zero fast time to look for next one. Unless new tournaments are announced beforehand early april would be one. Alas it's likely to be competive so I need to tune up my list power level up even more neccessitating purchaces and more stuff to paint so let's do that to focus on...Assuming canoness and imagiers are on preorder 21.3 by latest(if not yet another tournament I have to skip) here's what I have come up with.
Spoiler:
Brigade: Valorous heart
Canoness(plasma pistol, power sword, rod of office, warlord: +1 inv boosting aura, book of extra range)
canoness(inferno pistol, blessed blade, 2+/can't be wounded better than 4+ relic, beacon of faith)
missionary(just to save points mainly...)
Inquisitor Coteaz
There. Quite a gunline. One issue I can see is 3 pointing melee units. Coteaz and blessed blade canoness will be tag teaming to deal with those but other suggestions considered. One idea is to drop heavy bolter retributors and add 2 mortificators or 9 repentia to hide behind LOS blocking before charging.
So I played a game with my sisters/grey knights/ inquisitors yesterday and I wanted to post up what I found. It was 750 pts vs 750 pure grey knights.
List was pretty straightforward.
Sisters of value heart
2 canonesses w/ blessed blade and bolt pistols
3x 5 sisters, 1 w/ storm bolter
1 imagifier with stoic for ignore AP-2
Grey knights patrol
Librarian
Chaplain
1 x 5 man term squad w/ halbreds
Inquisitior w/ ordos blade
Mission was scorched earth. I wont go into a full battle report detail about the game but things I found out.
I moved my sisters into a terrain features and sat on an objective objective t1 and spent the entire game there for the most part with them. Vs grey knights in the cover tide my bolters did nothing all game. I didn't kill a single grey knight all game with bolters from the sisters.
However the sisters were next to impossible to remove as well. At one point I failed 9 wounds and thanks to miracle dice and strats I ended up losing only 2 girls in cover (1 auto pass, 1 strat to discard a miracle dice and increase a roll by 1, and cp reroll). Also when my opponents paladins deep struck in with their apothecary terminator (who was the warlord) and charged me my opponent found out that ap-2 falchion swords didnt kill sisters very quickly due to the ignore when ended up being a slugfest where 1 of my canonesses w/ the relic bless blade kept killing a paladin a turn. Then the inquisitor would put a wound on one so the apothecary couldn't revive the dead one, with my other canoness running around the combat and charging from behind attacking and killing the apothecary in one round of combat.
So sisters at least at low points I have found to be not very good st killing things but almost impossible to remove. At the next level of our escalation league I will need to add more sisters in, hopefully something that will increase the girls ability to put out some range pain.
Also grey knights in pure mode are scary. My opponent kept then in cover tide for most the game but once we got really stuck into combat he switched to smite and that's when girls started dying. If it wasn't for my own grey knights being there (mostly the chaplain with the +3 to deny chant and the librarian) I would have had a real issue at this point in the game.
4 attacks per girl at Rerollable 3s to hit and rerollable 3s to wound, with AP-1 multiplied by 9 girls are 14,4 wounds.
The superiors with 5 attacks at AP-4 adds 4 more wounds.
The total is slightly above 9 intercessors killed, 30 boyz/gaunts deleted, 11 wounds on a Leman Russ, a dead flyrant, a wiped squad of 9 shining spears, 10 wounds on a disco lord. There are few things in the game that want to be near that 104 point unit.
ah ha, I missed that their stratagem effects melee as well.
3cp is certainly an investment though for bring it down and rerolls
Automatically Appended Next Post: does anyone have the dominion box yet?
checking the GW site for contents, it appears that it is just a battle sisters box with a different box (eg, same exact sprues?)
4 attacks per girl at Rerollable 3s to hit and rerollable 3s to wound, with AP-1 multiplied by 9 girls are 14,4 wounds.
The superiors with 5 attacks at AP-4 adds 4 more wounds.
The total is slightly above 9 intercessors killed, 30 boyz/gaunts deleted, 11 wounds on a Leman Russ, a dead flyrant, a wiped squad of 9 shining spears, 10 wounds on a disco lord. There are few things in the game that want to be near that 104 point unit.
ah ha, I missed that their stratagem effects melee as well.
3cp is certainly an investment though for bring it down and rerolls
Automatically Appended Next Post: does anyone have the dominion box yet?
checking the GW site for contents, it appears that it is just a battle sisters box with a different box (eg, same exact sprues?)
Celestian squad, sisters of battle squad, and Dominion all are one sprue. Here is the kicker. Only have 3 special options, so you can't have 4 of the same special sisters multa or something unless you get 4 boxes.Comes with 1 of each storm bolter, flamer and a multa gun.
Celestian squad, sisters of battle squad, and Dominion all are one sprue. Here is the kicker. Only have 3 special options, so you can't have 4 of the same special sisters multa or something unless you get 4 boxes.Comes with 1 of each storm bolter, flamer and a multa gun.
Eh it has 4 of each special weapon.
And also dominion/celestian box and BSS boxes are 100% identical. It's just webstore entry different. Like with gorkanaut/morkanaut they are split into 2 on webstore but kit is same. Or 4 different mek guns. Or flesh eater court you have 4 different entry for 1 box...
And also dominion/celestian box and BSS boxes are 100% identical. It's just webstore entry different. Like with gorkanaut/morkanaut they are split into 2 on webstore but kit is same. Or 4 different mek guns. Or flesh eater court you have 4 different entry for 1 box...
thats what I thought, my new boxes are still in the mail.
Bugs me a little that the ret box is the only way to get multi meltas, I'll get CADing asap
Celestian squad, sisters of battle squad, and Dominion all are one sprue. Here is the kicker. Only have 3 special options, so you can't have 4 of the same special sisters multa or something unless you get 4 boxes.Comes with 1 of each storm bolter, flamer and a multa gun.
Eh it has 4 of each special weapon.
And also dominion/celestian box and BSS boxes are 100% identical. It's just webstore entry different. Like with gorkanaut/morkanaut they are split into 2 on webstore but kit is same. Or 4 different mek guns. Or flesh eater court you have 4 different entry for 1 box...
heh I guess it does, I been following the manual so much, I didn't look
And also dominion/celestian box and BSS boxes are 100% identical. It's just webstore entry different. Like with gorkanaut/morkanaut they are split into 2 on webstore but kit is same. Or 4 different mek guns. Or flesh eater court you have 4 different entry for 1 box...
thats what I thought, my new boxes are still in the mail.
Bugs me a little that the ret box is the only way to get multi meltas, I'll get CADing asap
To be fair, I don't really think BSS are the platform for multimeltas.
The Sisters of Battle box comes with 4 of each special weapon, which is really nice. Hopefully this will become the norm, but I wouldn't count on it. It's nice though because it means that you can do 2x BSS with full special weapons loadout from one squad box.
The Retributors box is more normal and comes with 2 of each.
I got a quick question. Make sure I am reading the rules right. I can only have either have 2 special weapon or a heavy and special in a normal BSS? Also can you have multiple orders in your army? Like that squad is in that order and it follows that order rules and the others follow other order rules?
Xfrawg wrote: I got a quick question. Make sure I am reading the rules right. I can only have either have 2 special weapon or a heavy and special? Also can you have multiple orders in your army? Like that squad is in that order and it follows that order rules and the others follow other order rules?
Correct.
And you can take multiple orders but if you take them in same detachment all lose order bonus(though order stratagems, relics etc are still usable). To keep those you need to have them on own detachments. Valorous heart battallion, bloody rose vanquard and argent shroud battalion for example
Xfrawg wrote: I got a quick question. Make sure I am reading the rules right. I can only have either have 2 special weapon or a heavy and special? Also can you have multiple orders in your army? Like that squad is in that order and it follows that order rules and the others follow other order rules?
you only get to take advantage of the order special rules if the entire detachment has that order, so your army could contain multiple detachments from different orders, no problem, but not one detachment with multiple orders.
regular sisters squads and celestians get one special, one special/heavy, and the leaders can take a combi weapon
dominions can take 4 special
retributors can take 4 heavy
Xfrawg wrote: I got a quick question. Make sure I am reading the rules right. I can only have either have 2 special weapon or a heavy and special? Also can you have multiple orders in your army? Like that squad is in that order and it follows that order rules and the others follow other order rules?
Correct.
And you can take multiple orders but if you take them in same detachment all lose order bonus(though order stratagems, relics etc are still usable). To keep those you need to have them on own detachments. Valorous heart battallion, bloody rose vanquard and argent shroud battalion for example
To be fair, I don't really think BSS are the platform for multimeltas.
With the order of advance with no penalty, you spread your meltas/multimeltas out everywhere so they can't be focus fired out of the list
You would still suffer -1 to hit though. You only ignore the advance part. Not moving part.
Grundz wrote:
Xfrawg wrote: I got a quick question. Make sure I am reading the rules right. I can only have either have 2 special weapon or a heavy and special? Also can you have multiple orders in your army? Like that squad is in that order and it follows that order rules and the others follow other order rules?
you only get to take advantage of the order special rules if the entire detachment has that order, so your army could contain multiple detachments from different orders, no problem, but not one detachment with multiple orders.
regular sisters squads and celestians get one special, one special/heavy, and the leaders can take a combi weapon
dominions can take 4 special
retributors can take 4 heavy
Thanks, and can the leader only take a plasma pistol and bolter gun, or can it use plasma pistol and a combi?
Would be wasted points. The plasma pistol's shoot in combat comes up so rarely not worth it. Have either combi weapon or plasma depending on how much points you want to pay
To be fair, I don't really think BSS are the platform for multimeltas.
With the order of advance with no penalty, you spread your meltas/multimeltas out everywhere so they can't be focus fired out of the list
You'll still have the -1 to hit.
I feel like if you're Argent Shroud, you really want to have normal meltas. They actually benefit if you can advance without taking the -1, and the advance will go further to bring them in range.
While planning out my squads and the way I'm going to build my 20 sisters from the BSS in addition to the 10 old metal sisters and 12 mono-pause battle sisters from the army box I have, I decided to go for a converted Retributor squad of 4x Heavy Flamers (yis, incoming Ebon Chalice player!). Originally I planned to convert up a unit of Retributors with 4 Multi-Meltas, but I felt uncomfortable with how few spare bolter models it was going to leave me with (for playing bigger squads of BSS than the usual 5 from time to time... or getting more BSS units on the table altogether), not to mention how difficult it'll be to MM-convert models other than the two models originally intended for the HB.
So thinking about that, the high price AND the fragility of a 4x MM Ret squad (making additional bolter sisters a must in order to survive), I thought about just building the two MM models in addition to the Superior and two bullet catchers.
So essentially this:
Retributor Squad [6 PL, 104pts]
Selections: 2x Armourium Cherub [10pts]
So, 104 points for two MMs with 3 bullet catchers that can still pump out 4 shots on the first turn or on turn 2 when they are hopefully in melta rule range. Probably not worth spending the two CP for the extra range and damage on (particularly not past turn 1), but compared to a bigger 4x MM squad they are much cheaper, MUCH less threatening and thus much more likely to be ignored, while also being easier to hide or get into cover. Also high survivability for the meltas through a high number of ablative wounds (with regards to the size of the squad, of course).
They are easy to slot into an army, while still helping to spread out and diversify the AT ability of a list. Heck, you can even throw an extra model with a simulacrum in there for good measure (119 points total then).
I'm definitely going to give them a spin. Worst case I only 'wasted' two models which I'll still likely find some uses for down the road.
tneva82 wrote: Would be wasted points. The plasma pistol's shoot in combat comes up so rarely not worth it. Have either combi weapon or plasma depending on how much points you want to pay
Well it makes her shooting at 12 stronger too since she could shoot with everything
tneva82 wrote: Would be wasted points. The plasma pistol's shoot in combat comes up so rarely not worth it. Have either combi weapon or plasma depending on how much points you want to pay
Well it makes her shooting at 12 stronger too since she could shoot with everything
You can't shoot Pistols & other weapons at the same time - you have to choose between a model shooting all their Pistols or all their other weapons.
Not necessarily tactical... it used to be in previous incarnations that the sisters were aligned with the Ordo Hereticus. This edition in particular the Sisters seem to be more in fighting Chaos and Daemons (eg the Battle Sanctum, Blazing Piety Strat, Brazier of Holy Fire, Sacred Rose Relic, etc).
I mention because I used to be a purist when it came to “Ordo alignment”, but it seems justified now to take Ordo Malleus inquisitors (Coteaz, Rex) where before I would only have considered Grayfax (and for a while back several editions I even used Karamazov).
tneva82 wrote: Would be wasted points. The plasma pistol's shoot in combat comes up so rarely not worth it. Have either combi weapon or plasma depending on how much points you want to pay
Well it makes her shooting at 12 stronger too since she could shoot with everything
You can shoot all weapons unless one is pistol or grenade. You could shoot 10000000 bolters or 10000000 pistols if you could carry that many. You can't shoot bolter and pistol though
Automatically Appended Next Post:
davidgr33n wrote: Not necessarily tactical... it used to be in previous incarnations that the sisters were aligned with the Ordo Hereticus. This edition in particular the Sisters seem to be more in fighting Chaos and Daemons (eg the Battle Sanctum, Blazing Piety Strat, Brazier of Holy Fire, Sacred Rose Relic, etc).
I mention because I used to be a purist when it came to “Ordo alignment”, but it seems justified now to take Ordo Malleus inquisitors (Coteaz, Rex) where before I would only have considered Grayfax (and for a while back several editions I even used Karamazov).
Anyone else noticed the shift?
Not really. Rooting out CHAOS cults is part of their job. Though Inquisitors being Inquisitors any ordo has authority to get sister support if need be
Ragnar Blackmane wrote: While planning out my squads and the way I'm going to build my 20 sisters from the BSS in addition to the 10 old metal sisters and 12 mono-pause battle sisters from the army box I have, I decided to go for a converted Retributor squad of 4x Heavy Flamers (yis, incoming Ebon Chalice player!). Originally I planned to convert up a unit of Retributors with 4 Multi-Meltas, but I felt uncomfortable with how few spare bolter models it was going to leave me with (for playing bigger squads of BSS than the usual 5 from time to time... or getting more BSS units on the table altogether), not to mention how difficult it'll be to MM-convert models other than the two models originally intended for the HB.
So thinking about that, the high price AND the fragility of a 4x MM Ret squad (making additional bolter sisters a must in order to survive), I thought about just building the two MM models in addition to the Superior and two bullet catchers.
So essentially this:
Retributor Squad [6 PL, 104pts]
Selections: 2x Armourium Cherub [10pts]
So, 104 points for two MMs with 3 bullet catchers that can still pump out 4 shots on the first turn or on turn 2 when they are hopefully in melta rule range. Probably not worth spending the two CP for the extra range and damage on (particularly not past turn 1), but compared to a bigger 4x MM squad they are much cheaper, MUCH less threatening and thus much more likely to be ignored, while also being easier to hide or get into cover. Also high survivability for the meltas through a high number of ablative wounds (with regards to the size of the squad, of course).
They are easy to slot into an army, while still helping to spread out and diversify the AT ability of a list. Heck, you can even throw an extra model with a simulacrum in there for good measure (119 points total then).
I'm definitely going to give them a spin. Worst case I only 'wasted' two models which I'll still likely find some uses for down the road.
Watcha guys think?
I think that is a clever setup for multi melta retributors, for all the reasons you mention. Also makes it less painful when they are inevitably killed.
In a similar way, I'm giving combi meltas to a few of the forward BSS-squads. Partly to make it a bit more bothersome to destroy all my anti tank. Partly to give me the opportunity to spend a good MD on damage.
I think that is a clever setup for multi melta retributors, for all the reasons you mention. Also makes it less painful when they are inevitably killed.
In a similar way, I'm giving combi meltas to a few of the forward BSS-squads. Partly to make it a bit more bothersome to destroy all my anti tank. Partly to give me the opportunity to spend a good MD on damage.
I'm really tempted to do an inferno pistol in every squad, forever.
short range charges are risky with miracle dice
if you take the rite that allows a unit to shoot or swing when it dies, close combat is double risky when you get plugged with a MD on the charge unless you charge from a risky distance, then plugged AGAIN with a MD when the superior dies if they get the shot off.
BR Seraphims with Inferno Pistols would have AP-5, is that something that would ever come into play? I know Eliminators with Camo cloaks are 1+, so would the AP-5 IPs negate that save?
Also, in the case of Seraphim using the Deadly Descent strat and Marines using their Auspex Scan strat, who shoots first? I’ve looked for an answer and can’t find one, other than in other cases the active player decides... is that correct?
davidgr33n wrote: BR Seraphims with Inferno Pistols would have AP-5, is that something that would ever come into play? I know Eliminators with Camo cloaks are 1+, so would the AP-5 IPs negate that save?
Also, in the case of Seraphim using the Deadly Descent strat and Marines using their Auspex Scan strat, who shoots first? I’ve looked for an answer and can’t find one, other than in other cases the active player decides... is that correct?
They'd get a 6+.
And Centurions are both popular and 2+ with no invuln. Their save would be negated by AP-5.
davidgr33n wrote: BR Seraphims with Inferno Pistols would have AP-5, is that something that would ever come into play? I know Eliminators with Camo cloaks are 1+, so would the AP-5 IPs negate that save?
Also, in the case of Seraphim using the Deadly Descent strat and Marines using their Auspex Scan strat, who shoots first? I’ve looked for an answer and can’t find one, other than in other cases the active player decides... is that correct?
They'd get a 6+.
And Centurions are both popular and 2+ with no invuln. Their save would be negated by AP-5.
About best use for that but yeah not coming to play all that often in practice. -3 is generally the max you really help. -4 is already getting marginal. -2 is generally the sweet spot.
Got my ass kicked today though only 7-8 in the end. Was playing against IG tank armada with 3 tank commander(I think), 3 russ, 2 basilisk and 2 armigers. With just 4 multi melta, 2 melta gun and couple combi melta I def was running short on AT guns! Did drop one knight but concentrated too much on those knights. Should have gone for no inv save russes instead(particularly that punisher...Damn those 40 S5 shots will hurt even valorous heart).
Yet again opponent got surprised by durability as the -2 basically was giant middle finger to those battle cannons and earthshaker cannons.
Celestine was hero tagging first 2 tanks, then causing 8 damage to executioner before leaving that to multi melta(other russ was tad too far) and dealt with Harken and astropath netting me 2 vp's. Though maybe tagging that punisher would have been better use of her.
Arco flagelants and repentia's soaked up most of his anti infantry firepower turns 1-3. Seraphim squad dealt with 3 squads and finished off another squad of infantry crippled by dominions before succumbing to knight charging in. Could have done bit better had I remembered to charge and 3 point squad like I had planned...Instead they got gunned down.
Inability to harm distant tanks hurt. Exorcists will help once I get those. Also inferno pistols for seraphim will help. Ordered 3rd party ones seeing no quarantee official ones will come in months so just have to wait for them to arrive.
Arco flagelants and repentia's soaked up most of his anti infantry firepower turns 1-3. Seraphim squad dealt with 3 squads and finished off another squad of infantry crippled by dominions before succumbing to knight charging in. Could have done bit better had I remembered to charge and 3 point squad like I had planned...Instead they got gunned down.
IDK about you but I probably would have really tried to keep the seraphim in deep strike until I could charge and lock down those tanks with them and miracle dice
They were in deep strike. First squad dropped in, shot 2 survivors from squad that dominions had already nearly decimated. I then FORGOT to charge them which was plan(Charge and 3 point for safety) which got first squad killed. Second squad dropped in on same location and ended up scything through 2 more squads on their own before that knight came in. Not too bad outing as it is considering I blew it myself on forgetting to declare charge.
Good point on locking tanks though...Forgot entirely that option. Let's see. 49 shots, hit on 6, reroll 1's. That's 8 hits, 8 rerolls so let's say 10 hits total for worst case. 7 wounds and 2-3 dead for about worst case. So yeah I could have tagged at least on t3. T2 punisher was safe as the knight was still there blocking deep strike(had I had inferno pistols I could have tried to drop one, blow the knight(if lucky) and drop second for tagging).
Got to keep that in mind. Games take so much time which is limited and new army with tons to remember(forgot passion and the shooting bonus after getting it for a while...and didn't realize sooner I could use cherubs to literally buy myself that "gain 3 MD for vp" card sooner which would have helped me to get easier cards to score sooner)
I like them too. Albeit today they didn't do much but that's partially because I deployed them poorly and for some reason opponent decided he really wants to get rid of 5 celestians with no weapons whatsoever(they were originally supposed to be sniper guardians for imagifiers but didn't need for that) coupled with some bad dice rolling.
Guess I prefer opponent shooting them over say retributors...
(on his defence my army was solid mess of identical looking models so realizing they were celestians with no upgrades wasn't that obvious)
Has anyone else considered the Zealot Missionary Pious Vourne (from Blackstone Fortress) for their list? I’m thinking for 25 pts she fits nicely into one of my Elite slots. She’s a character with a heavy flamer that rolls 2d6 (take the highest roll) damage against Chaos units.
davidgr33n wrote: Has anyone else considered the Zealot Missionary Pious Vourne (from Blackstone Fortress) for their list? I’m thinking for 25 pts she fits nicely into one of my Elite slots. She’s a character with a heavy flamer that rolls 2d6 (take the highest roll) damage against Chaos units.
I want to jump in on the heels of the conversation about Superior loadouts... is anyone throwing hand flamers around? I'm definitely going to drop a couple of infernos on Superiors, mainly to create triple melta threats, but to bring down the average cost I might model a couple squads with hand flamers. They do allow chargers to come from a little closer in without overwatch, but on a small squad with a good roll they could really increase the output in the shooting phases, including in melee, and on close charges. Add the BR -1AP and the option for Holy Trinity and it seems like a single point well spent. Am I overvaluing them even at that low price?
MacPhail wrote: I want to jump in on the heels of the conversation about Superior loadouts... is anyone throwing hand flamers around? I'm definitely going to drop a couple of infernos on Superiors, mainly to create triple melta threats, but to bring down the average cost I might model a couple squads with hand flamers. They do allow chargers to come from a little closer in without overwatch, but on a small squad with a good roll they could really increase the output in the shooting phases, including in melee, and on close charges. Add the BR -1AP and the option for Holy Trinity and it seems like a single point well spent. Am I overvaluing them even at that low price?
absolutely, even if its 1pt to just unlock trinity
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, I was playing around in battlescribe
2k points, 25 CP, sacred rose list
the idea is to take a ton of relics, burn all the cherubs on the first turn, and then ride that wave of renewing miracle dice until the end of the game.
many relics are not listed because I hadn't decided on them yet
tons of points to be tuned in slowly but it seems like it would be fun for a casual game, and I have one too many canonesses
Retributor Squad: 2x Armourium Cherub
Retributor Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun
Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
Retributor w/ Heavy Weapon: Heavy bolter
How are people finding sacrificing your sacred rites to add an inquisitor such as Greyfax or Coteaz in your lists. I'm thinking the added psychic defense buff could be more beneficial more often in games. I have yet to play a game with the sisters so just curious how this works in practice.
skycapt44 wrote: How are people finding sacrificing your sacred rites to add an inquisitor such as Greyfax or Coteaz in your lists. I'm thinking the added psychic defense buff could be more beneficial more often in games. I have yet to play a game with the sisters so just curious how this works in practice.
Inquisitors have special rule that you can add one and still retain mono bonus.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmmm local tournament organiser is going for itc style. Not fan of that but might give a go. Apart from expecting big boost to marines what other things to look for? Units that perform particularly badly in it?
Hmmm local tournament organiser is going for itc style. Not fan of that but might give a go. Apart from expecting big boost to marines what other things to look for? Units that perform particularly badly in it?
What I find most tricky about ITC is optmizing for the Secondary objectives. If you like youtube guides, D6 Evolution has a great one on that subject.
Hmmm local tournament organiser is going for itc style. Not fan of that but might give a go. Apart from expecting big boost to marines what other things to look for? Units that perform particularly badly in it?
What I find most tricky about ITC is optmizing for the Secondary objectives. If you like youtube guides, D6 Evolution has a great one on that subject.
Exactly this. Be aware at any point in time what secondaries your list can give up.
The reason Marines are so strong, and the reason you are going to see the winning LVO list everywhere, is because of how effectively it denies secondaries.
Headhunter (1VP per character slain) - Sisters give this one up pretty easy since VH likes to run a bunch of Imagifiers and most lists will include a bunch of Canonesses and likely Missionaries too. Repentia Superiors are also a target. My 2K list runs 9 characters, so in a game where my opponent does well, they can usually fully score this.
Kingslayer (1VP / 2 wounds done to a character, +1 VP if it was Warlord and killed) - Celestine gives full VP for this one if she's your Warlord. The Triumph of Saint Katherine makes this one very easy to max-out if you have one (even if it's not your WL).
Marked for Death (Choose 4 units with PL7+, 1 VP for each destroyed) - Celestine, Triumph and Exorcists give this one up. Retributors, Celestians , Zepyhrs will if you take more than the minimum unit size. It requires killing specific units, so it's less popular than others.
Titan Slayers - Useless against us. Yay!
Gang Busters (1VP per 6 wounds done to unit with 3W+ models) - Mortifiers and Penitent Engines potentially give up this one if you're running a bunch of them.
Big Game Hunter (1VP per Vehicle or Monster with 7W+ destroyed) - Exorcists are obvious targets for this, and it's a likely selection if you're running Rhinos, Immolator or Repressors in addition. It's similar to Marked for Death, but the targets don't need to be specified. Unlike MFD, it can't score off of Celestine or the Triumph.
Pick Your Poison - Pure Sisters can only ever give up 2 points on this one, so it's unlikely to be chosen against you.
Butcher's Bill (1VP if you kill 2+ units in a turn) - This is where running a Brigade of 45 or 49 point Sisters squads will bite you. Even with VH, it's pretty easy to score this against MSU Sisters.
Reaper (1VP/20 models destroyed) - This one is usually taken against Guard and Orks. Although lots of Sisters armies do run a bit over 80 models, you'd have to basically get tabled for this to fully score. It is a threat if you're running a list with 100+ though.
Recon / Behind Enemy Lines / Ground Control / King of the Hill - these all score points for achieving and maintaining positioning. They depend more on the enemy army than yours.
Engineers - Enemy units can score VP for hiding in a ruin doing nothing. Sisters are somewhat vulnerable to this since we don't have any indirect fire. Deep-striking Zephyrim or Seraphim can help root them out, but expect enemy armies to score this one relatively easily.
Old School - Similar to the Chapter Approved secondaries. Doesn't hit Sisters particularly worse than anyone else.
Didn't realise the retributor stratagem not only made MMs 36 inch range but also added one to the damage roll! That's absolutely insane, will definitely be having a full squad far forward and unleashing them early.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Didn't realise the retributor stratagem not only made MMs 36 inch range but also added one to the damage roll! That's absolutely insane, will definitely be having a full squad far forward and unleashing them early.
It’s 2 CP but we’ll worth it. I have 3 units of 4MM Rets, and use that strat every turn as long as I have at least one unit w 3 MMs
Rogerio134134 wrote: Didn't realise the retributor stratagem not only made MMs 36 inch range but also added one to the damage roll! That's absolutely insane, will definitely be having a full squad far forward and unleashing them early.
Bejezus! How on earth have I managed to miss that one too O_o
Rogerio134134 wrote: Didn't realise the retributor stratagem not only made MMs 36 inch range but also added one to the damage roll! That's absolutely insane, will definitely be having a full squad far forward and unleashing them early.
It’s 2 CP but we’ll worth it. I have 3 units of 4MM Rets, and use that strat every turn as long as I have at least one unit w 3 MMs
Is it though?
That stratagem is three 1CP stratagems packaged as one so they couldn't all be used together.
2CP buys a second round of shooting, each of the independent abilities is a 1CP stratagem-grade ability.
That said, some times you have to pay up when the difference is between making range and not.
skycapt44 wrote: How are people finding sacrificing your sacred rites to add an inquisitor such as Greyfax or Coteaz in your lists. I'm thinking the added psychic defense buff could be more beneficial more often in games. I have yet to play a game with the sisters so just curious how this works in practice.
Inquisitors have special rule that you can add one and still retain mono bonus.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hmmm local tournament organiser is going for itc style. Not fan of that but might give a go. Apart from expecting big boost to marines what other things to look for? Units that perform particularly badly in it?
Secondaries are the key. Keys are to remember that a point is a point: score them when you can. ITC scores progressively(every round) so its key not to fall behind. So recognizing how msny objectives you MUST control saves you much pain.if the enemy has only one objective, and you go second, then you only need two objectives. If they will likely kill one unit, you need to kill 2, but a 3rd may just over expose you.
skycapt44 wrote: How are people finding sacrificing your sacred rites to add an inquisitor such as Greyfax or Coteaz in your lists. I'm thinking the added psychic defense buff could be more beneficial more often in games. I have yet to play a game with the sisters so just curious how this works in practice.
Honestly, I don't think Sacred Rites are remotely strong enough to make me want to stick to mono except out of convenience.
Most of the competitive list variations I'm working through have a battalion of IG with a Basilisk or Hydra. I'm still just really not happy with any of my Sisters lists mono or no though.
skycapt44 wrote: How are people finding sacrificing your sacred rites to add an inquisitor such as Greyfax or Coteaz in your lists. I'm thinking the added psychic defense buff could be more beneficial more often in games. I have yet to play a game with the sisters so just curious how this works in practice.
Honestly, I don't think Sacred Rites are remotely strong enough to make me want to stick to mono except out of convenience.
Most of the competitive list variations I'm working through have a battalion of IG with a Basilisk or Hydra. I'm still just really not happy with any of my Sisters lists mono or no though.
Spirit of the Martyr looks pretty good. Every third model you got getting a free shooting attack or melee attack (i.e. Repentia) if it gets killed will do some damage, especially if it triggers on say an Exorcist or any special- or heavy weapon model.
Aegis of the Emps makes the innate Psy-Defense sisters got actually useable instead of wasted ink, which is good because pretty much all of our units can deny with it. Rolling 4-9 against a cast attempt with a result span of 2-12 is solid, even without other debuffs like Null Rods.
All in all, table results 2-4 are all good, while 1 stacks well with Argent Shroud and 5 is yet another solid army wide melee buff.
Even result Nr. 6 is great if you have larger squads, because you will get to farm free Miracle Dice from Morale Tests all the time with very little to no risk. Heck, even if you cannot possibly fail the morale test (because you only took 1-2 casualties) you just doubled your chances of getting a free miracle dice! I actually consider it to be stronger than the +1 advance for any Order except Argent Shroud.
I'd say rolling on the table might actually be pretty solid as there is nothing that is wasted besides 1 being situational and 3 being useless without enemy psykers.
Sure, Rites aren't as strong as SM Doctrines, but for the health of the game and any sort of balance still left in 40k we should all be glad that isn't the case.
Also we still get to ally Inquisitors while keeping Rites, which is very nice, even if I do wish the same was the case for Assassins.
skycapt44 wrote: How are people finding sacrificing your sacred rites to add an inquisitor such as Greyfax or Coteaz in your lists. I'm thinking the added psychic defense buff could be more beneficial more often in games. I have yet to play a game with the sisters so just curious how this works in practice.
Honestly, I don't think Sacred Rites are remotely strong enough to make me want to stick to mono except out of convenience.
Most of the competitive list variations I'm working through have a battalion of IG with a Basilisk or Hydra. I'm still just really not happy with any of my Sisters lists mono or no though.
I think sacred rites are more a "handy if you happen to run mono anyway, but not something you'd feel obliged to run mono for"
I mean it's nice to have, (the one that gives a bonus to deny saves is proably reaaaaly handy when fighting psyker heavy lists) but yeah, it's not like space Marines where I'd be removing knights from my existing lists
skycapt44 wrote: How are people finding sacrificing your sacred rites to add an inquisitor such as Greyfax or Coteaz in your lists. I'm thinking the added psychic defense buff could be more beneficial more often in games. I have yet to play a game with the sisters so just curious how this works in practice.
Honestly, I don't think Sacred Rites are remotely strong enough to make me want to stick to mono except out of convenience.
Most of the competitive list variations I'm working through have a battalion of IG with a Basilisk or Hydra. I'm still just really not happy with any of my Sisters lists mono or no though.
I think sacred rites are more a "handy if you happen to run mono anyway, but not something you'd feel obliged to run mono for"
I mean it's nice to have, (the one that gives a bonus to deny saves is proably reaaaaly handy when fighting psyker heavy lists) but yeah, it's not like space Marines where I'd be removing knights from my existing lists
Yeah, they aren't game changing, but some have solid synergies. Aegis against the right opponent for sure... Spirit plus MD plus melta should have some cinematic moments. I'm tempted to try out Divine Guidance, a Canoness, and a trio of heavy bolter Immolators loaded with heavy bolter Retributers... S5 AP-2 seems like a sweet spot in the meta.
What the md is for? Pretty sure spirit is not listed on what yfu can use md for
Automatically Appended Next Post: Ig got perfect sister killers. -3 hotshot basic guns and volley shots. If those become popular sister infantry is going to die in droves
I feel like I should drop one exo to distribute more faith and multimeltas
there are way too many priests but I need to fill hq slots and thats really the only option =/
I'm also tempted to distribute the relic pistol to a support elite and have a third beatstick canoness, but with the warlord canoness I can recycle any unwanted low miracle rolls through her warlord trait
also normalised sisters squads loadouts for more clarity
Yeah, they aren't game changing, but some have solid synergies. Aegis against the right opponent for sure... Spirit plus MD plus melta should have some cinematic moments. I'm tempted to try out Divine Guidance, a Canoness, and a trio of heavy bolter Immolators loaded with heavy bolter Retributers... S5 AP-2 seems like a sweet spot in the meta.
I was thinking of that, the sacred rose stratagem for exploding 6's, and the stratagem for +1 to hit
I had three games at an ITC RTT last Saturday. Never faced a Psyker, so lost out on farming Miracle Dice.
I went with an Inquisition Vanguard with two squads of 5 Acolytes with 5 Combi Plasma to shoot out of Repressors backed up by Sisters squads with just a Combi Plasma Superior. Valorous Heart Brigade, Ebon Chalice patrol (so I could squeeze in the Immolator to drive into the middle of my opponent's army, flame for 12 (2CP Cleansing Flame), charge and explode for Mortal Wounds, and then lay the Cycloinic Torpedo Mortal Wounds on the same wounded units.
Plus I got to pull off the 36 Heavy Flamer hits from the Ebon Chalice Retributor squad a couple of times. With the Superior's Combi Melta it put enough Holy Trinity wounds on one of the THREE Baneblades he brought to make it 'splode and take out just about every non-tank in my army.
Second game was against a Custodes player trying out his new Forge World purchases, three units of 4 or 5 Jetbikes each with a Battlecannon mounted on it, two Jetbike Captains and a stacking minuses To Hit character which managed to wrap my units and avoid being shot it in my turns, kill my units in my Fight phase and be free to do what he wanted in his turn, and STILL manage to get Recon points with six units on the board and 3 CP in his army the whole game... didn't manage to kill anything of his at all, did get one unit down to one bike, where it then ran off to a far corner and scored objectives & recon for the last few turns.
Last game was against Ad Mech. Killed 2 of the 3 shooty walkers with 1 Exorcist each, kept putting Mortal Wounds and double tapped Plasma on his Characters (Ordo Minoris plus Psychic ability to target Characters even if not closest) but bad to Wound rolls meant he could just heal back to full in his turn. Didn't get the Easy Bake off, but did end up winning the game due to Valorous Heart resilience and Dominion Storm Bolter weight of fire.
Once the Battle Sanctum comes out I'll swap a Valorous Heart Exorcist for some Ebon Chalice Multi Melta Retributors to shoot from their vantage point 6" above the battlefield to give them line of sight to some juicy targets.
I need to get more fighty stuff in though. Standard Sisters shooting isn't killy enough in my list.
Yeah, they aren't game changing, but some have solid synergies. Aegis against the right opponent for sure... Spirit plus MD plus melta should have some cinematic moments. I'm tempted to try out Divine Guidance, a Canoness, and a trio of heavy bolter Immolators loaded with heavy bolter Retributers... S5 AP-2 seems like a sweet spot in the meta.
Been playing sacred rose with divine guidance for an escalation league (that uses legends as well) and I gotta say a dom squad (in rapid range) with 5 storm bolter using blessed bolts and the sacred rose start that adds another hit on 6s for bolt weapons is scary first turn alpha. Can do some really solid damage to primaris even in cover even shooting at non t8 vehicles will put a good chunk of hurt into them
55 for an Inquisitor, 95 each for the Acolyte 5 Combi Plasma units, and 22 for a Jokaero to round out the Vanguard and give one of the Acolyte units re-roll tohit/to wound/both against a non Character target (for Ordo Minoris).
Since they can ride in another armies transports, they took up half the space inside a Repressor while the other went to a 56 point unit of Bolter Sisters with a Combi Plasma for the Superior.
Frowbakk wrote: 55 for an Inquisitor, 95 each for the Acolyte 5 Combi Plasma units, and 22 for a Jokaero to round out the Vanguard and give one of the Acolyte units re-roll tohit/to wound/both against a non Character target (for Ordo Minoris).
Since they can ride in another armies transports, they took up half the space inside a Repressor while the other went to a 56 point unit of Bolter Sisters with a Combi Plasma for the Superior.
aren't acolytes pretty lame with 4+ to hit and 5+ saves? I'd rather just take some more sisters
Frowbakk wrote: 55 for an Inquisitor, 95 each for the Acolyte 5 Combi Plasma units, and 22 for a Jokaero to round out the Vanguard and give one of the Acolyte units re-roll tohit/to wound/both against a non Character target (for Ordo Minoris).
Since they can ride in another armies transports, they took up half the space inside a Repressor while the other went to a 56 point unit of Bolter Sisters with a Combi Plasma for the Superior.
aren't acolytes pretty lame with 4+ to hit and 5+ saves? I'd rather just take some more sisters
They're mostly desirable in their 1:1 goon-to-gun ratio, and then only if you can protect them in order to not shed kill points right and left... so basically, in a Repressor. I think, unlike a lone Inquisitor, they do cost you your Sacred Rites, so there's that to consider. But the package above sounds pretty potent if one is going down that road.
4+ to hit with full re-rolls against most armies with the right ordo, that puts you at higher accuracy than a standard sisters squad without fearing overheating, and the Repressor serves as the ablative wounds the squad needs to be effective.
As said above, if you aren't worried about rites or if you play Witch Hunters it is a wonderfully synergistic tactic.
I am building a 2000 point BR list for a small tournament this weekend. It is an aggressive list with all infantry (3 units each of Zephyrs and Seraphs, plus Dominions and MM Rets and supporting cast).
That said, I have about 180 points leftover and am considering adding 3 Mortifiers to the list....
Should I put them in or will they be Focus fired exclusively due to being my only “armor” and not worth putting in?
davidgr33n wrote: I am building a 2000 point BR list for a small tournament this weekend. It is an aggressive list with all infantry (3 units each of Zephyrs and Seraphs, plus Dominions and MM Rets and supporting cast).
That said, I have about 180 points leftover and am considering adding 3 Mortifiers to the list....
Should I put them in or will they be Focus fired exclusively due to being my only “armor” and not worth putting in?
I'd probably add more infantry, since any armor WILL be focused down in a moment.
Failing that, perhaps an Exorcist? Moritifers are fragile as hell to anti-tank, at least Exorcists are T8 and 3+.
Since losing Sacred Rites popped up, I'l; mention my fun times with Repentia and Marines. In particular it was 2 untis of Rep, some SW Suppressors and TWC. Making a gunline not fire overwatch for what I'm charging was worth losing the Sacred Rites.
davidgr33n wrote: I am building a 2000 point BR list for a small tournament this weekend. It is an aggressive list with all infantry (3 units each of Zephyrs and Seraphs, plus Dominions and MM Rets and supporting cast).
That said, I have about 180 points leftover and am considering adding 3 Mortifiers to the list....
Should I put them in or will they be Focus fired exclusively due to being my only “armor” and not worth putting in?
Agreed on not adding obvious targets for AT... how about a unit or two of Celestians, maybe with an extra Canoness, Imagifier, and Preacher to buff them up. They like to be played aggressively and will help keep your HQs on the board. Either that or a Battalion of Valorous Heart to camp objectives and farm CPs.
mrwhoop wrote: Since losing Sacred Rites popped up, I'l; mention my fun times with Repentia and Marines. In particular it was 2 untis of Rep, some SW Suppressors and TWC. Making a gunline not fire overwatch for what I'm charging was worth losing the Sacred Rites.
What did you sacrifice rites for that prevented overwatch? Only way I know that does that is Inquisitor but you don't have to lose rites to get Inquisitor.
davidgr33n wrote: @MacPhail, hadn’t thought of that, how do you farm CPs?
Maybe the wrong phrase... their main job is showing up with 5 CP and then being hard to shift. So not farming in the truest sense... But this is a CP hungry army and it sounds like the rest of the force wants to run off and pick a fight.
Agreed with MacPhail, celestians seem really nice for a melee focused army. Plus they bodyguard those canonesses, making it easier to get them in and wreak havoc with them. I'm not sure if you could squeeze the points for another battalion of Valorous Heart, but that's a good suggestion for holding your own objectives. Are you lacking anti tank? You could throw some meltas in with another squad if so, spend the points on bodies and melta.
mrwhoop wrote: Since losing Sacred Rites popped up, I'l; mention my fun times with Repentia and Marines. In particular it was 2 untis of Rep, some SW Suppressors and TWC. Making a gunline not fire overwatch for what I'm charging was worth losing the Sacred Rites.
What did you sacrifice rites for that prevented overwatch? Only way I know that does that is Inquisitor but you don't have to lose rites to get Inquisitor.
mrwhoop wrote: Since losing Sacred Rites popped up, I'l; mention my fun times with Repentia and Marines. In particular it was 2 untis of Rep, some SW Suppressors and TWC. Making a gunline not fire overwatch for what I'm charging was worth losing the Sacred Rites.
What did you sacrifice rites for that prevented overwatch? Only way I know that does that is Inquisitor but you don't have to lose rites to get Inquisitor.
Bringing a detachment of Marines loses Sacred Rites and I brought a unit of Supressors and another melee unit (TWC). When the Supressors kill a model in a unit, that unit may not fire overwatch. Not just for assaulting Marines but flat out no overwatch for that unit. In this case it was necron destroyers with tesla (i think, the one that explodes more hits on 6's no need to roll). I killed one and was able to charge with my repentia leaving 1 left that turn.
I know mech infantry is ... decidedly suboptimal this edition, but I love all things tracked, so — given that Immolators are no longer great, but we can now put multiple units in the same transport, does it make any sense to put two squads of 5 Sisters each in the same Rhino and roll them up the board? Ideally disembarking (a) in cover and (b) within 12” of tasty targets?
Additional heretical thought: Does it make any sense at all for each 5-girl squad to take an Imagifer, cherub, meltagun, and flamer (or combi-weapon)? No, I’m not chasing Holy Trinity bonuses, I’m thinking of having nasty little melta-and-flamer hedgehogs all over the board that, because they can use a Miracle Die on either Special Weapon, force the enemy to think twice about where he puts both his tanks and his infantry? Obviously this wouldn’t create unbreachable kill zones but they’d speckle the battlefield with zones of increased risk.
SisterSydney wrote: I know mech infantry is ... decidedly suboptimal this edition, but I love all things tracked, so — given that Immolators are no longer great, but we can now put multiple units in the same transport, does it make any sense to put two squads of 5 Sisters each in the same Rhino and roll them up the board? Ideally disembarking (a) in cover and (b) within 12” of tasty targets?
Additional heretical thought: Does it make any sense at all for each 5-girl squad to take an Imagifer, cherub, meltagun, and flamer (or combi-weapon)? No, I’m not chasing Holy Trinity bonuses, I’m thinking of having nasty little melta-and-flamer hedgehogs all over the board that, because they can use a Miracle Die on either Special Weapon, force the enemy to think twice about where he puts both his tanks and his infantry? Obviously this wouldn’t create unbreachable kill zones but they’d speckle the battlefield with zones of increased risk.
There's nothing wrong with Immolators, there just not 110 points worth of good.
Additional heretical thought: Does it make any sense at all for each 5-girl squad to take an Imagifer, cherub, meltagun, and flamer (or combi-weapon)? No, I’m not chasing Holy Trinity bonuses, I’m thinking of having nasty little melta-and-flamer hedgehogs all over the board that, because they can use a Miracle Die on either Special Weapon, force the enemy to think twice about where he puts both his tanks and his infantry? Obviously this wouldn’t create unbreachable kill zones but they’d speckle the battlefield with zones of increased risk.
I think that loadout will be quite expensive for rather small added bonus. It adds over 50% cost over a basic stormbolter unit, so for a double Batallion that is about 150p difference. Almost an exorcist or two units of inferno Seraphim, which would do a lot of more damage. You could certainly do a light version of it and add only a melta or combi-melta (or inferno pistol?) to the forward pushing units. The flamer feels a bit "meh".
SisterSydney wrote: I know mech infantry is ... decidedly suboptimal this edition, but I love all things tracked, so — given that Immolators are no longer great, but we can now put multiple units in the same transport, does it make any sense to put two squads of 5 Sisters each in the same Rhino and roll them up the board? Ideally disembarking (a) in cover and (b) within 12” of tasty targets?
Additional heretical thought: Does it make any sense at all for each 5-girl squad to take an Imagifer, cherub, meltagun, and flamer (or combi-weapon)? No, I’m not chasing Holy Trinity bonuses, I’m thinking of having nasty little melta-and-flamer hedgehogs all over the board that, because they can use a Miracle Die on either Special Weapon, force the enemy to think twice about where he puts both his tanks and his infantry? Obviously this wouldn’t create unbreachable kill zones but they’d speckle the battlefield with zones of increased risk.
The flamer isn't that hot plus doesn't benefit from md that much. Myself if i have flamer i have 2. 2d6 at least might give enemy some pause
SisterSydney wrote: I know mech infantry is ... decidedly suboptimal this edition, but I love all things tracked, so — given that Immolators are no longer great, but we can now put multiple units in the same transport, does it make any sense to put two squads of 5 Sisters each in the same Rhino and roll them up the board? Ideally disembarking (a) in cover and (b) within 12” of tasty targets?
Additional heretical thought: Does it make any sense at all for each 5-girl squad to take an Imagifer, cherub, meltagun, and flamer (or combi-weapon)? No, I’m not chasing Holy Trinity bonuses, I’m thinking of having nasty little melta-and-flamer hedgehogs all over the board that, because they can use a Miracle Die on either Special Weapon, force the enemy to think twice about where he puts both his tanks and his infantry? Obviously this wouldn’t create unbreachable kill zones but they’d speckle the battlefield with zones of increased risk.
The flamer isn't that hot plus doesn't benefit from md that much. Myself if i have flamer i have 2. 2d6 at least might give enemy some pause
SisterSydney wrote: I know mech infantry is ... decidedly suboptimal this edition, but I love all things tracked, so — given that Immolators are no longer great, but we can now put multiple units in the same transport, does it make any sense to put two squads of 5 Sisters each in the same Rhino and roll them up the board? Ideally disembarking (a) in cover and (b) within 12” of tasty targets?
Additional heretical thought: Does it make any sense at all for each 5-girl squad to take an Imagifer, cherub, meltagun, and flamer (or combi-weapon)? No, I’m not chasing Holy Trinity bonuses, I’m thinking of having nasty little melta-and-flamer hedgehogs all over the board that, because they can use a Miracle Die on either Special Weapon, force the enemy to think twice about where he puts both his tanks and his infantry? Obviously this wouldn’t create unbreachable kill zones but they’d speckle the battlefield with zones of increased risk.
There's nothing wrong with Immolators, there just not 110 points worth of good.
The main issue ith the Immolator is that you are paying 43 points for 2 regular heavy flamers with +4" range and for "upgrading" the storm bolter to a heavy bolter that's going to to hit on 4+ (or worse once damaged) most of the time... and nothing else.
I mean just compare that to a Hellhound: An extra wound and S6 instead of S5 on it's 2D6 12" flamer. The additional Strength matters big time whenever you are fighting hordes of T3 targets. And to add extra salt to the wound, it's 3 points cheaper with an additional hull heavy flamer, further leaving the Immolator behind. And that's before considering that the Hellhound can also take a 2 point storm bolter and a 10 point upgrade to completely ignore speed penalties from taking wounds. It's also a great FA slot filler for brigades and has a pretty powerful strat coming out soon. Sure, the Immolator has some gimped transport capacity, but with any cargo worth taking outside a super cheapo BSS/Celestian squad with Storm Bolters, you'll paint a massive bulls-eye on it and it has neither the durability or firepower to compensate for it. A Rhino is just that much cheaper, has the same durability, more transport capacity AND is way more inconspicuous, which helps keeping the cargo alive too.
The only way an Immolator seems to be good is with Ebon Chalice and paying the 2 CP for 12 auto-hits... but even then you have to ask yourself if a squad of heavy flamer Rets in a Rhino or even Repressor wouldn't be better for the job. They just provide that much more firepower for the CP investment (with 2 Cherubs they fire three times as many shots as the Immo will) and can also easily benefit from Holy Trinity for an extra 15 points investment too.
For the points the Immolator should either be T8 (seriously, it's the same bloody hull as the Exorcist) or at least have a few additional wounds. And S6 on it's main gun.
The only Immolator loadout that seems somewhat efficient is with all heavy bolters, that way it's only 7 points more expensive than a Retributor squad with 4x HB and arguably much more durable and only having somewhat reduced firepower. But even then that seems like a waste of money in particular (I seriously I doubt it will be much cheaper than the Exorcist), especially when considering that Rets can at least move and shoot without penalty and you are wasting the transport capacity almost entirely by using the Immo as an immobile gun turret.
In any case, I hope the poor thing gets at least a 20 points drop on its base cost with the next points adjustment.
Melissia wrote: Would be slightly better if you could have a hull heavy flamer, even if that's not an option in the box. I mean only slightly, but still...
I think that was a wasted opportunity. Hellhounds can replace their hull HB with a HF or a MM, why couldn't the Immolator do the same?
I appreciate the insights. So what’s the best way — or the least bad way — to run mech Sisters now? 10-girl BSS with combi-flamer, two meltaguns, and maybe imagifer-plus-cherub in Rhino?
And what Order works best for mech? I have a soft spot for Argent Shroud, and I’m pretty sure vehicles can use the advance-and-fire special ability (still wrapping my head around vehicles using the same rules as other models, though it’s a hugely welcome simplification), but I really doubt that’s optimal....
SisterSydney wrote: I appreciate the insights. So what’s the best way — or the least bad way — to run mech Sisters now? 10-girl BSS with combi-flamer, two meltaguns, and maybe imagifer-plus-cherub in Rhino?
And what Order works best for mech? I have a soft spot for Argent Shroud, and I’m pretty sure vehicles can use the advance-and-fire special ability (still wrapping my head around vehicles using the same rules as other models, though it’s a hugely welcome simplification), but I really doubt that’s optimal....
My play is strictly semi-comp, so take this with a grain of salt. I run 2-3 Rhinos opposite 2-3 Exos to force my opponent to make choices. I like 2 units per transport, one shooty and one choppy, to have options. Combos I've used without making a claim to their utility: melee Canoness plus Preacher and Imagifier with 7 Celestians, heavy flamer Retributers plus max-melta BSS, stormbolter Doms plus melta BSS... even double BSS with maxed melta to unload six meltaguns on turn 2. And don't forget a Rhino's other useful roles, blocking traffic lanes and LoS, evacuating lone survivors to deny points, and most importantly, soaking overwatch for your Bloody Rose Canoness.
I'm thinking about running a couple of melta BSS units in Repressors myself. I just hope Repressors don't get the Legends treatment. I doubt they will given that CA2019 listed them and the FAQ addressed them, so there's that.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm thinking about running a couple of melta BSS units in Repressors myself. I just hope Repressors don't get the Legends treatment. I doubt they will given that CA2019 listed them and the FAQ addressed them, so there's that.
We honestly have no idea what to expect from the FW book.
But if there was ever a unit that deserved to be retired, I honestly couldn't think of too many better examples than the Repressor.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm thinking about running a couple of melta BSS units in Repressors myself. I just hope Repressors don't get the Legends treatment. I doubt they will given that CA2019 listed them and the FAQ addressed them, so there's that.
We honestly have no idea what to expect from the FW book.
But if there was ever a unit that deserved to be retired, I honestly couldn't think of too many better examples than the Repressor.
Speak for yourself. I’ve been running them since early 2000s and have been a part of most lists I run. It’s the only Sisters unit in FW out of hundreds of units from every other faction. So if you wanna wish our only FW unit out of existence pls take it somewhere else.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm thinking about running a couple of melta BSS units in Repressors myself. I just hope Repressors don't get the Legends treatment. I doubt they will given that CA2019 listed them and the FAQ addressed them, so there's that.
We honestly have no idea what to expect from the FW book.
But if there was ever a unit that deserved to be retired, I honestly couldn't think of too many better examples than the Repressor.
Speak for yourself. I’ve been running them since early 2000s and have been a part of most lists I run. It’s the only Sisters unit in FW out of hundreds of units from every other faction. So if you wanna wish our only FW unit out of existence pls take it somewhere else.
Don't get me wrong. I'm on your side here. I want all the unit options we can get, but legends does not say anything about denying you the right to play with a model you have. In fact, it straight up ensures that you absolutely can play it if you have it.
But the reality is that this is a unit that does not currently have a model. That is not a good place for rules to exist for a variety of reasons, as far as competitive play is concerned. My preferred outcome is that there is a model re-released or redesigned. Until then, I firmly believe there's no place for a model in competitive play that cannot be acquired through legitimate means.
I don't care if you can get Chinese recasts. I don't care if you can proxy. I don't care if you have them today. A unit with no available model has no place, and the competitive community has accepted that for Legends. It is inevitable that they accept it for FW's retired back catalog, should we desire to be exactly as consistent in our approach as we often wish GW to be.
Jancoran wrote: Got another game in w the Sisters against a tournament IG list. He was very confident that he was going to cook my goose.
Dude, that’s awesome!!
Any batrep? Or at least a little rundown of yours / his list.
Basics? Emperors wrath battery (of course) with the trimmings. He has several command Leman Russ's, including that crazy pants relic battle cannon. Scions to drop on my face w plasma, lots of body shielding(ig). He had several assassins to gank my characters and get around me. He took bullgryns powered by a psyker which is always tough to kill. Shot my whole army at them and only killed 4, in the second round i think it was. Thats the basic outline as well as I can remember.
My list is the same ive been using. Ill slap it here.
Round 1 i moved up with all haste. Moved and fired exorcists. Killed the relic Battlecannon but it took two exorcists to do it. Nearly ganked his wyvern. Celestine leaped 18" forward and crushed a guard squad. Done
He levelled his fusilade into an exorcist and killed it, and killed Celestine. She got better. Used emperors wrath to stop my flagellents from charging and protect his bullgryns.. Smart
Celestine leaped away from the bullgryns who killed her and smashed some Guardsman. Everything moved to force ds units out from my core and objectives. Then red squad charged the bullgryns just for free movement, locked them up. But morale from shooting losses killed two and they would now be able to escape my hugs. He lost another Leman Russ and his wyvern and disparate units as the march continued.the vindicare aasassin died to multimetas, after popping the valorous heart strat.
His drops showed up. I was surrounded and multiple objectives at risk. He made his charges while escaping his trapped units from my grasp. Eversor was mooost displeased to learn that he is relatively ineffective with 8 attacks against Sisters of Battle. The callidus was equally vexed when forced to settle for killing three Sisters. The culexus was similarly vexed by the fortitude of the sisters. No assassin. Failed in its mission to charge me, to his credit however. Another exorcist died and my retirbutors did too for their insolence as they were all marked for death. The scions saw to that. Normal guardsmen plinked away at pink squad and his talarn tank showed up from seemingly nowhere and opened fire as well.
Pink squad charged the ig after shooting them, locking up the tallarn tank on my right. We shot and charged everything in sight. Made one error and culexus made me pay. Got too close. Oops. But overall, the arco-flagellents blendered an assassin, ig squad and all but killed a tripointed bullgryn. Red squad killed the eversor, which exploded nsear like...6 characters. Ouch. Kinda hilarious. Gotta remember that... at this stage i was knee deep in ichor. Dominion jumped the ig, shooting and hacking them and locking them as best they could.
His basilisk had a good round and such but very little could fire and almost everything was dead or locked. Mostly just pulling outta combat and trying to blast my exorcist. His last assassin did wreck anargent shroud squad tho.
The rest of the game was clean up. I destroyed everything and had pretty much travelled all the way across the board with almost everthing I had. Grar. Twas a tabling.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm thinking about running a couple of melta BSS units in Repressors myself. I just hope Repressors don't get the Legends treatment. I doubt they will given that CA2019 listed them and the FAQ addressed them, so there's that.
We honestly have no idea what to expect from the FW book.
But if there was ever a unit that deserved to be retired, I honestly couldn't think of too many better examples than the Repressor.
Speak for yourself. I’ve been running them since early 2000s and have been a part of most lists I run. It’s the only Sisters unit in FW out of hundreds of units from every other faction. So if you wanna wish our only FW unit out of existence pls take it somewhere else.
Seeing they don't sell model it definitely fits definition of legends so if they retire any units either they release new kit or it is retired
I noticed you used arco-flags. they seem to be quite good and are maybe a sleeper unit. I was thinking of hiding them behind the exorcists, moving them up or using them as counter charge.
Looking at the IG list, if I remember correctly Basilisks have indirect fire - the Acro-Flags would seem very vulnerable to this. Did the guy not know what the AF did - since I noticed in the batrep he did not target them.
Also I've heard of people using an inquisitor to put a 5 up invuln on them in addition to their native 5 up FNP. Point for point at least this makes them quite durable. So what are your thoughts on the AF, how did you use them and would they be viable against someone with TF Cannons?
I noticed you used arco-flags. they seem to be quite good and are maybe a sleeper unit. I was thinking of hiding them behind the exorcists, moving them up or using them as counter charge.
Looking at the IG list, if I remember correctly Basilisks have indirect fire - the Acro-Flags would seem very vulnerable to this. Did the guy not know what the AF did - since I noticed in the batrep he did not target them.
Also I've heard of people using an inquisitor to put a 5 up invuln on them in addition to their native 5 up FNP. Point for point at least this makes them quite durable. So what are your thoughts on the AF, how did you use them and would they be viable against someone with TF Cannons?
You're welcome for the batrep.
I had Big Game Hunter and Head Hunter. He had Command tanks and he also had marked the Exorcists for Death As well as my Retributors. Because of that, it made killing the Exorcists kind of a big deal to him. Lot of points to be saved or made with their death. As he had opted to put a lot of punch into deep Strike, he needed the Basilisks to kill the Exorcist. since I had hurt his Wyvern, he used the Wyvern to slow my Arcos and kinda trap them in a building for a round (again, Emperors wrath ability). So he knew they were an issue and he did accord them respect but had to kill what he could for those sweet sweet points.
in future rounds I was all over him and his tanks were in danger, so he had to kill those melta-guns coming for him. It was at that point the best of poor options. I was EXTREMELY aggressive. I mean all three of my basic Sisters squads were charging everything they could lay hands on whenever they could, even Bullgryns. Lol.
An inquisitor does represent an interesting add to a LOT of armies. Eisenhorn can add 1 to an existing Invulnerable save. That can couple with things that provide them. I'm not certain what you are specifically referring to as far as getting them a 5+ invul so clue me in there.
As for how to use them against Thunderfire cannons, that's a whole other ball of wax. The simple truth is that Thunderfire Cannons are a hard counter to a n awful lot in the game. Snipers are the answer and Sisters don't have them.
But I look at that question that you ask and it becomes two things, not one, for me.
First, and most important is that if you look at my list I posted, you can see that target priority is what protected my Arco-Flagellents and the threat saturation I caused was enough to protect them. Unlike some suggestions that have been made here, I am really REALLY mobile with my force and I'm certainly not just foolishly exposing the Arco-Flagellents. I think that's been true in all 11 games so far. We know that the Emperor protects. That's a given. But I think priority protects even better. There are a great deal many threatening items right up close and personal, VERY quickly, in this army. So do they want to kill SIX Arco-Flagellents, as good as they are? Or do they want to kill the Exorcists... the buck wild Multimelta Squad? The deadly anti-Primaris Storm Bolter unit? Perhaps 58 Sisters? St. Celestine is um... literally in their face and generally charging turn one so how about her? At some point you can only do so much and so the Thunderfires will have to decide where best to spent their time.
The second piece I mention is that you kind of have to ask yourself: isn't the Thunderfire Cannons trying to kill the Arco-Flagellents kind of a win for you? I mean I think it is. It means they aren't killing the dudes on the objectives. So that's pretty good for held more. That means they aren't shooting the ravening horde of Sisters bearing down on them. That means no chipping of the Exorcists is happening... The Retributors and Dominion may well be able to inflict heavy losses because the Arco-Flagellents are getting bombed. So does it really matter? Also, since the Arco-flagellents are unimpressed wit hthe STR and APof weapons like that, it just comes down to math: hitting on 2's, it takes over 30 shots from those cannons to kill all 6 man squad. Each cannon averages 8 shots before firing twice strat is used. So you're going to need two turns of Thunderfire to kill them. Isn't that a bit of a win? Now imagine if you took 9. I ran out of points or I totes would.
So I don't know how much fire he REALLY could have poured on them. The Wyvern would have been a good idea but I nerfed that early and he effectively nerfed me with it (Emperors Wrath ability) so i think he did what he could to neutralize them. He just couldn't do more because I killed him.
So my answer to you in a nutshell then would be: you must out-tactic the enemy andconsider the Arco-Flagllents in context. For some lists the Arco-s will just be an easy call and a wise target for the enemy. When not FORCED to make a SPECIFIC decision in war, it's dealers choice. But when you FORCE decisions on the foe, then you have something. Now you have the advantage. Because now there may BE no "good" choices. Sorry to wax philosophical about it but its true. There is a definitive value to that advice in Warhammer 40K, I feel.
The Sisters made top 20 at LVO. that is no mean feat and it's not an accident. Consider how he did it: threat saturation. He lured enemies to attack things that didn't TRULY matter to him in the early going and then tightened the noose later, saturating them with so much that they couldn't escape that he forced ALL choice to be bad choices. Exorcists were just red herrings.
Thanks for the detailed reply. The ability to give a 5 up invuln is
Ordo Malleus – Power Through Knowledge – WC6: Give an IMPERIUM BIKER or INFANTRY unit a 5++ till your next psychic phase.
I got this from goonhammer's review on Index Inquisition.
There's a lot for me to think about in what you've said - list building really is some sort of art form! I'm intrigued with the large 15 model BSS squads, most people have been discussing MSU, but that gives up a lot of points, and I guess the durability of 15 model melta squads makes them a more credible threat in the end. Did you use the strat to disengage a lot? You mentioned charging and wrapping to move up (again easier with big squads).
Also I was thinking for 1 CP it would be possible to give an imagifer +1 strength as well, thus boosting the 15 model squads to 4 STR, would this be worth it?
MSU only gives lots of points in kill point missions. In CA(which is closest to true 40k) it's less of issue. Sure ITC might screw over MSU but then again ITC is bunch of house rules that screws balance anyway and sob's will be screwed anyway in ITC with marine fest around and needing indirect weapons more than normal(which sisters have...none)
Interesting to see you doing well with an Argent Shroud detachment. I've only really thought about combos of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose myself, but then that's because I REALLY want to run a big Repentia bomb. On that note, here's my latest list idea:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Valorous Heart
Canoness: Plasma Pistol, Power Sword, Rod of Office, Warlord (Beacon of Faith)
Celestine
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
5 Battle Sisters: No upgrades
Imagifier: Tale of the Stoic, Book of St. Lucius
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Battalion: Bloody Rose
Canoness: Bolt Pistol, Benificence, Heroine in the Making (Indomitable Belief)
Missionary
10 Battle Sisters: 2x Meltagun, Combimelta, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
10 Battle Sisters: 2x Meltagun, Combimelta, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
Imagifier: Tale of the Warrior
8 Repentia
8 Repentia
Repentia Superior
Repressor: 2x Heavy Flamer
Repressor: 2x Heavy Flamer
Rhino
Rhino
Total 1999 points
Basically I'd put the two big BR melta units in the Repressors, and put the Repentia and characters in the Rhinos. They would move up along with Celestine as a big nasty deathball, getting out of their vehicles as necessary to deal with stuff. Celestine and the Canoness can combine their auras to give the Repentia (and the regular BR sisters) a 4++. Once the melta units disembark, they can use their cherubs and Simulacrums to get the miracle dice train rolling for max damage. The VH stuff pretty much all sits back on objectives and blasts things with the Exorcists. My main concern is that in ITC play this list gives up easy Big Game Hunter and Headhunter, but I wanted to have some fast moving things that can help control the board a bit rather than sitting back in a gunline, hence the mechanized elements.
How viable do you think the following unit would be, in a Valorous Heart army?
7 Sisters
Combi-flamer and hand flamer for the Sister Superior
1 flamer
1 multi-melta
I'm considering filling my Core slots with such a unit, because it adds up to exactly 100 pts (for easy list-building), has enough ablative wounds to protect the expensive multi-melta, and is deadly on overwatch thanks to the flamers. In a protracted close combat, the Sister Superior's dirt-cheap hand flamer adds some punch. These units will serve mostly as hard-to-dislodge objective-sitters (2+ save in cover, ignoring AP -1, melt your face off on overwatch), while Exorcists and Mortifiers handle most of the killing.
Thematically, I like a holy army having units of 7. (And yes, I know 7 is also the number of Nurgle. Shut up. How would you even happen to know such a thing, unless you were a heretic?)
-Guardsman- wrote: How viable do you think the following unit would be, in a Valorous Heart army?
7 Sisters
Combi-flamer and hand flamer for the Sister Superior
1 flamer
1 multi-melta
I'm considering filling my Core slots with such a unit, because it adds up to exactly 100 pts (for easy list-building), has enough ablative wounds to protect the expensive multi-melta, and is deadly on overwatch thanks to the flamers. In a protracted close combat, the Sister Superior's dirt-cheap hand flamer adds some punch. These units will serve mostly as hard-to-dislodge objective-sitters (2+ save in cover, ignoring AP -1, melt your face off on overwatch), while Exorcists and Mortifiers handle most of the killing.
Thematically, I like a holy army having units of 7. (And yes, I know 7 is also the number of Nurgle. Shut up. How would you even happen to know such a thing, unless you were a heretic?)
.
As somebody said, the flamers aren't really that useful in overwatch, and the hand flamer is a total waste of points. If you're sitting in the back, I'd take a heavy bolter over a multimelta for the range, and if you're moving forward I'd take a meltagun so you can move and fire without penalty or advance and fire since you're going to be going that way anyway and the melta is appreciably cheaper.
So I'm going to go look for a pickup game at the local GW storefront next weekend. I mostly play 2k, but the store advises lists at 1000 or 1500 due to space and time limits.
Anybody have big ideas for those point values? I imagine a single Battalion at 1k and maybe Battalion plus something at 1.5k. Should I stick to a single Order in these smaller games?What's a reasonable number of Exorcists for a casual game? Should I abandon mech altogether for a smaller table and go for bodies? All ideas welcome!
MacPhail wrote: So I'm going to go look for a pickup game at the local GW storefront next weekend. I mostly play 2k, but the store advises lists at 1000 or 1500 due to space and time limits.
Anybody have big ideas for those point values? I imagine a single Battalion at 1k and maybe Battalion plus something at 1.5k. Should I stick to a single Order in these smaller games?What's a reasonable number of Exorcists for a casual game? Should I abandon mech altogether for a smaller table and go for bodies? All ideas welcome!
Uh, 1 battalion probably, maybe 2 or a brigade at 1.5k.
I'd only break order at that scale if you have enough units that want a specific order trait separate from the bulk of your army.
3 Exorcists. Everything gets more resilient the smaller the game is.
Your call. Right now, horde sisters is good and probably the way to go [ungh. I want to be AS or BR for the advances and the melee, but like there's so much AP-2 Marine everywhere I can't not pick VH], but going heavy on mech targets gets more brutal the smaller the game size.
Gareth_Evans wrote: Thanks for the detailed reply. The ability to give a 5 up invuln is
Ordo Malleus – Power Through Knowledge – WC6: Give an IMPERIUM BIKER or INFANTRY unit a 5++ till your next psychic phase.
I got this from goonhammer's review on Index Inquisition.
There's a lot for me to think about in what you've said - list building really is some sort of art form! I'm intrigued with the large 15 model BSS squads, most people have been discussing MSU, but that gives up a lot of points, and I guess the durability of 15 model melta squads makes them a more credible threat in the end. Did you use the strat to disengage a lot? You mentioned charging and wrapping to move up (again easier with big squads).
Also I was thinking for 1 CP it would be possible to give an imagifer +1 strength as well, thus boosting the 15 model squads to 4 STR, would this be worth it?
Thank you for the explanation. Helpful!
So my plan was to use the strat to fall back with Red Squad after charging the Bullgryns, as you surmised. Unfortunately, when the time came, his Assassin was using that thing that drains your CP and I just couldn't; so i settled for falling back normally and then letting the Arco's get in there. it didn't affect the outcome but yes, that was supposed to be the plan. It is what it is though. He kinda put me in a resource pickle. Oh and BTW, Sisters don't do hardly anything in melee, as if that were news. I think i missed 12 out of 14 to wound rolls even with the Missionary and Canoness helping us to hit. Lol. Hilarious. I mostly did it for free movement. I don't find fault in wanting to get them +1 STR for that reason. I would just wonder why you'd want to spend 40 points on them for a combat they will likely lose anyways. Let them lose. it's fine as long as they do what you need them to. Sisters never really run anyways. They're dead or steadfast. now if you were buffing Repentia, sure. Different entirely. They need that str boost.
As for the list building being an art form, I suppose it kind of is. i think that the tactics are more important. If you know what you need to accomplish per se, and what you want your enemy to DO, then finding units who can do that is easier than math hammering things to death and taking "the best" units ten times, and THEN figuring out what you're going to do with them later (which I see a lot of online and in person). i say this as one who is notably good at math. I know what the best units ARE but I also know that building units like that isn't always best. Some can force you to do ONLY one thing. I don't like that. I like it when the enemy really cannot cut the head off of the snake, because there really isn't one.
My lists may look different because I'm specifically trying to choreograph certain things and then I find the unit for whatever that is with reliability in mind. I didn't use Crisis suits in 5th, 6th and 7th editions hardly at all in my tau list for that reason. I wanted to do a certain thing and also get the opponent to do a certain thing. The units it took to illicit the enemies responses and for me to be able to react how i wanted to just didn't find the "best units" to be the best FIT for a very long time. Took a lot of flakk online for my T'au lists but at end of day... I mean... You couldn't argue with results, even if you could argue with me, ya know? I still have only ever played Triple tide once.
Sisters are the same way. I've viewed them differently all along pretty much from 4th-8th. They have been very good to me even when they sucked on paper. Tons o tournament wins over the years with them. True story: I won two tournaments i played in after the silly White Dwarf "codex" dropped for sisters, using one of literally every unit in the codex. Hand on the Bible, that's true. Just made an army list with one of everything and gave it a whirl. Penitent Engine, and even the Sororitas Command Squad which was MUCH maligned here on DakkaDakka. Celestians. All of it. It was so fun.
The reason I say that is to say this: The list can't win it for you. make a smart list, a clever list, make sure you have the tools you need in order to carry out your PLAN, but also don't buy into the idea that you cant win if you don't take "the meta list". Tilt your head to the left, and see things from another perspective. Force yourself to try to find the way THAT something WILL work instead of always grabbing the low hanging fruit of conventional wisdom that it won't.
Canoness warlord with Terrible Knowledge, rod of office
Canoness heroine in the making with Indomitable Belief and Null Rod and relic Iron Suplice
2 units of 5 sisters with 2 SBs 1 unit of 6 with HB
Hospitaller
Repentia Superior
7 Repentia
1 unit of 5 Seraphim with handflamers
2 Exorcists
Mortifier with flamer and flails
Immolator with flamers
Immolator with MM Rhino
and lastly a battle Sanctum (I've been allowed to use a Bastion until the official model comes out)
Now I don't think this is too competitive but it does have 5 tanks and only 31 bodies. There's anti tank, anti infantry and with the seraphim and/or Ebon Chalice strat you can clear units off objectives. The Immolator and rhino allow the characters a choice to not put all the eggs in one basket. The exorcist/ Rod Canoness and HB sisters provide a small fire base for an objective while not making the list a sit and turtle. The repentia and mortifier mean you're coming at them so they have to decide the exorcist or having some killer melee in their line. Repentia will shred Primaris and dent or kill tanks. The Terrible knowledge trait means you can have 8 or even 10 CPs if you roll well. Maybe this list is more competitive than I thought. There's flexibility in where you put the canoness, either helping hold an objective or pushing with the repentia to give 5++ before 5+++.
-Guardsman- wrote: How viable do you think the following unit would be, in a Valorous Heart army?
7 Sisters
Combi-flamer and hand flamer for the Sister Superior
1 flamer
1 multi-melta
I'm considering filling my Core slots with such a unit, because it adds up to exactly 100 pts (for easy list-building), has enough ablative wounds to protect the expensive multi-melta, and is deadly on overwatch thanks to the flamers. In a protracted close combat, the Sister Superior's dirt-cheap hand flamer adds some punch. These units will serve mostly as hard-to-dislodge objective-sitters (2+ save in cover, ignoring AP -1, melt your face off on overwatch), while Exorcists and Mortifiers handle most of the killing.
Thematically, I like a holy army having units of 7. (And yes, I know 7 is also the number of Nurgle. Shut up. How would you even happen to know such a thing, unless you were a heretic?)
.
Hehehe. That was funny.
i guess if you took like 10 of these units for 1K, you would have 10 multimeltas that are extremely difficult to stop every round. i like that concept. It would take enormous effort to kill all those multimeltas.
alphs strikey armies are really quite in vogue. These certainly have some ability to make them pay but the issue is that many of them will be beyond flamer range when they drop in front of you or deploy there. So. There is that to consider. Its not so much the thought behind it as much as it is the cost of arming them all for an ability to repel attackers they may not really get to use.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MacPhail wrote: So I'm going to go look for a pickup game at the local GW storefront next weekend. I mostly play 2k, but the store advises lists at 1000 or 1500 due to space and time limits.
Anybody have big ideas for those point values? I imagine a single Battalion at 1k and maybe Battalion plus something at 1.5k. Should I stick to a single Order in these smaller games?What's a reasonable number of Exorcists for a casual game? Should I abandon mech altogether for a smaller table and go for bodies? All ideas welcome!
Well casual play is for funsies so i'd pull out the models you dont normally use and give them a work out just because no one cares about scores in those games. Perfect time to test theories.
Smaller tables? those are super iffy for sisters. if tables are tiny, go melee.
ZergSmasher wrote: I'm thinking about running a couple of melta BSS units in Repressors myself. I just hope Repressors don't get the Legends treatment. I doubt they will given that CA2019 listed them and the FAQ addressed them, so there's that.
We honestly have no idea what to expect from the FW book.
But if there was ever a unit that deserved to be retired, I honestly couldn't think of too many better examples than the Repressor.
Speak for yourself. I’ve been running them since early 2000s and have been a part of most lists I run. It’s the only Sisters unit in FW out of hundreds of units from every other faction. So if you wanna wish our only FW unit out of existence pls take it somewhere else.
Don't get me wrong. I'm on your side here. I want all the unit options we can get, but legends does not say anything about denying you the right to play with a model you have. In fact, it straight up ensures that you absolutely can play it if you have it.
But the reality is that this is a unit that does not currently have a model. That is not a good place for rules to exist for a variety of reasons, as far as competitive play is concerned. My preferred outcome is that there is a model re-released or redesigned. Until then, I firmly believe there's no place for a model in competitive play that cannot be acquired through legitimate means.
I don't care if you can get Chinese recasts. I don't care if you can proxy. I don't care if you have them today. A unit with no available model has no place, and the competitive community has accepted that for Legends. It is inevitable that they accept it for FW's retired back catalog, should we desire to be exactly as consistent in our approach as we often wish GW to be.
The comunity didnt accept it. It was forced on us.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZergSmasher wrote: Interesting to see you doing well with an Argent Shroud detachment. I've only really thought about combos of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose myself, but then that's because I REALLY want to run a big Repentia bomb. On that note, here's my latest list idea:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Valorous Heart
Canoness: Plasma Pistol, Power Sword, Rod of Office, Warlord (Beacon of Faith)
Celestine
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
5 Battle Sisters: No upgrades
Imagifier: Tale of the Stoic, Book of St. Lucius
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Battalion: Bloody Rose
Canoness: Bolt Pistol, Benificence, Heroine in the Making (Indomitable Belief)
Missionary
10 Battle Sisters: 2x Meltagun, Combimelta, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
10 Battle Sisters: 2x Meltagun, Combimelta, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
Imagifier: Tale of the Warrior
8 Repentia
8 Repentia
Repentia Superior
Repressor: 2x Heavy Flamer
Repressor: 2x Heavy Flamer
Rhino
Rhino
Total 1999 points
Basically I'd put the two big BR melta units in the Repressors, and put the Repentia and characters in the Rhinos. They would move up along with Celestine as a big nasty deathball, getting out of their vehicles as necessary to deal with stuff. Celestine and the Canoness can combine their auras to give the Repentia (and the regular BR sisters) a 4++. Once the melta units disembark, they can use their cherubs and Simulacrums to get the miracle dice train rolling for max damage. The VH stuff pretty much all sits back on objectives and blasts things with the Exorcists. My main concern is that in ITC play this list gives up easy Big Game Hunter and Headhunter, but I wanted to have some fast moving things that can help control the board a bit rather than sitting back in a gunline, hence the mechanized elements.
Well. Lot of armor to kill right? Your hope is they will shoot the Exorcists and the transports will therefore do their work. use up one Repentia unit at a time. Seems legit. Big game, Head Hunter and Butchers bill will be hard not to give up. So it will be playing from behind a little bit.
The comunity didnt accept it. It was forced on us.
I disagree here, largely because the competitive community in 8th has been anything but consistent on what is acceptable to adhere to. Apparently we will accept an adjustment to the fundamental mechanisms of victory, but then complain about being forced by a tyrannical hand to follow this one set of arbitrary exclusions to the letter. We ignore when it suits the community to do so, as in mission structure and terrain, but we'll accept some yoke applied by other facets without issue without question. I'm curious why that is the case.
The only thing consistent in the community's approach is that it is inconsistent. A common refrain against GW, but we're all birds of a feather it seems.
But all that aside, since either perspective is fundamentally irrelevant to changing the status quo in the direction of getting what we all want, I instead wanted to mention that I'm loving your comments in this thread. Super enlightening and very helpful for someone like me that constantly feels the pressure to adhere to the current min-max thinking while blind (or ignorant) of all the ways that approach isn't the best. Really appreciate the insight and look forward to following your journey further.
Lemondish wrote: I don't care if you can get Chinese recasts. I don't care if you can proxy. I don't care if you have them today. A unit with no available model has no place, and the competitive community has accepted that for Legends. It is inevitable that they accept it for FW's retired back catalog, should we desire to be exactly as consistent in our approach as we often wish GW to be.
GW consistent? Riiiiight.
Legends was a horrible idea and is still a horrible idea. That's how I want the community as a whole, competitive or not, to treat Legends, especially since it's a "suggestion", not GW outright saying "these models are banned". Incidentally, that's how I want GW to treat Legends as well - that it is a horrible idea that we're banning models we have produced at some point.
I played competitively in the old Legend of the Five Rings CCG for years. I miss the days where GW actively showed conversions in codexes and WD using bits from other company's models and even went so far as showing you how to build a tank from an empty deodorant tube.
If that's pay to win, then, yes, I'm pay to win.
Edit: I also hate the whole "rule of 3" because about 90% of the units it affects have no business being restricted at all while at the same time realizing it affects armies unequally in other ways. Especially when some armies have 2-3 "generic" choices at most in a particular slot (like HQ) while others may have 5-6 different datasheets for essentially the same model with a wargear change (Captain, Primaris Captain, Gravis Captain, Terminator Captain...) that could just as easily all be rolled into one datasheet. And, no, "captain spam" isn't tearing up the meta but daemon prince spam sure did.
SisterSydney wrote: I appreciate the insights. So what’s the best way — or the least bad way — to run mech Sisters now? 10-girl BSS with combi-flamer, two meltaguns, and maybe imagifer-plus-cherub in Rhino?
valorous heart, three imagifiers, play musical chairs with one or two of them so the transports dont outrun the aura. make one your warlord with the book and indomitable belief and keep him out of LOS or with celestians
mostly rhinos or repressors, one or two immolators because they are handy.
a second detachment of bloody rose where you stack all your seraphim and/or zeraphim
I don't know why, but your comment really angered me so I'll show you how pay to win I am.
I want to field my metal Canoness with power maul sand combi-flamer and I can't because Legends is banned in tournaments and my play group uses tournament rules. I want to field my metal superiors with storm bolters and can't because of Legends.
If I'm pay to win because of models I've had for years that aren't breaking anything other than GW's wallet for not providing me plastic alternatives, then *censored* yes, I'm play to win.
Gareth_Evans wrote: Thanks for the detailed reply. The ability to give a 5 up invuln is
Ordo Malleus – Power Through Knowledge – WC6: Give an IMPERIUM BIKER or INFANTRY unit a 5++ till your next psychic phase.
I got this from goonhammer's review on Index Inquisition.
There's a lot for me to think about in what you've said - list building really is some sort of art form! I'm intrigued with the large 15 model BSS squads, most people have been discussing MSU, but that gives up a lot of points, and I guess the durability of 15 model melta squads makes them a more credible threat in the end. Did you use the strat to disengage a lot? You mentioned charging and wrapping to move up (again easier with big squads).
Also I was thinking for 1 CP it would be possible to give an imagifer +1 strength as well, thus boosting the 15 model squads to 4 STR, would this be worth it?
Thank you for the explanation. Helpful!
So my plan was to use the strat to fall back with Red Squad after charging the Bullgryns, as you surmised. Unfortunately, when the time came, his Assassin was using that thing that drains your CP and I just couldn't; so i settled for falling back normally and then letting the Arco's get in there. it didn't affect the outcome but yes, that was supposed to be the plan. It is what it is though. He kinda put me in a resource pickle. Oh and BTW, Sisters don't do hardly anything in melee, as if that were news. I think i missed 12 out of 14 to wound rolls even with the Missionary and Canoness helping us to hit. Lol. Hilarious. I mostly did it for free movement. I don't find fault in wanting to get them +1 STR for that reason. I would just wonder why you'd want to spend 40 points on them for a combat they will likely lose anyways. Let them lose. it's fine as long as they do what you need them to. Sisters never really run anyways. They're dead or steadfast. now if you were buffing Repentia, sure. Different entirely. They need that str boost.
As for the list building being an art form, I suppose it kind of is. i think that the tactics are more important. If you know what you need to accomplish per se, and what you want your enemy to DO, then finding units who can do that is easier than math hammering things to death and taking "the best" units ten times, and THEN figuring out what you're going to do with them later (which I see a lot of online and in person). i say this as one who is notably good at math. I know what the best units ARE but I also know that building units like that isn't always best. Some can force you to do ONLY one thing. I don't like that. I like it when the enemy really cannot cut the head off of the snake, because there really isn't one.
My lists may look different because I'm specifically trying to choreograph certain things and then I find the unit for whatever that is with reliability in mind. I didn't use Crisis suits in 5th, 6th and 7th editions hardly at all in my tau list for that reason. I wanted to do a certain thing and also get the opponent to do a certain thing. The units it took to illicit the enemies responses and for me to be able to react how i wanted to just didn't find the "best units" to be the best FIT for a very long time. Took a lot of flakk online for my T'au lists but at end of day... I mean... You couldn't argue with results, even if you could argue with me, ya know? I still have only ever played Triple tide once.
Sisters are the same way. I've viewed them differently all along pretty much from 4th-8th. They have been very good to me even when they sucked on paper. Tons o tournament wins over the years with them. True story: I won two tournaments i played in after the silly White Dwarf "codex" dropped for sisters, using one of literally every unit in the codex. Hand on the Bible, that's true. Just made an army list with one of everything and gave it a whirl. Penitent Engine, and even the Sororitas Command Squad which was MUCH maligned here on DakkaDakka. Celestians. All of it. It was so fun.
The reason I say that is to say this: The list can't win it for you. make a smart list, a clever list, make sure you have the tools you need in order to carry out your PLAN, but also don't buy into the idea that you cant win if you don't take "the meta list". Tilt your head to the left, and see things from another perspective. Force yourself to try to find the way THAT something WILL work instead of always grabbing the low hanging fruit of conventional wisdom that it won't.
Just food for thought.
The act of building your list goes a long way to helping you succeed, if one thinks about it. Every unit in your list should be chosen with purpose. Consider how you're going to win, and how the enemy is going to win, and select units that will perform a function towards one of those two strategies. It is my opinion that any unit that does not have a job in your strategy, or upgrade that does not enable or protect the unit's function, should be deleted from the list and replaced with one that does. "Is fluffy" is not a job that contributes towards victory.
Taking "good stuff tribal" will only get you so far, if you don't have a path to victory.
On the other hand I also believe strongly in the mathhammer. If I select a unit to do something, I want it to be good at what it does.
As for the Repressor & Legends debate. I also believe that OOP models should be restricted in standard play. If you can't get it, it shouldn't be a standard option. Magic only has the most 5 recent sets in standard, which they write most of their sets around being balanced towards with some side attention to preserving the health of modern. And while individual cards are cheaper than miniatures, no doubt, I see no problem with a model that hasn't been purchasable for like half a decade and will probably never be returned not being in the competitive army lists.
I mean, I'm fine with what they did with Legends. Make it optional but still playable if everyone agrees to it. At least they're not making it ENTIRELY unplayable unlike previous editons!
tneva82 wrote: Outrun isn't that big deal. 6" vs 12", 6" aura and lenth of rhino. Unless you roll like 1 for imagifier advance you keep up fairly easily
tneva82 wrote: Outrun isn't that big deal. 6" vs 12", 6" aura and lenth of rhino. Unless you roll like 1 for imagifier advance you keep up fairly easily
then the people get out of the rhinos
On turn 2. At which point you can string them in more easily anyway.
Not really. They still get all the benefits of characters as well as all of the detriments in a competitive setting, such as giving up points to head hunter. It also doesn't fix their biggest issue - having been made a separate unit from Celestine and the drawbacks of this change far outweighing the benefits, with the only benefit I see being that they can act independently of her. They're also just worse Zephyrim to the point I'd rather buy two more Zephyrim than either or both Geminae.
Not really. They still get all the benefits of characters as well as all of the detriments in a competitive setting, such as giving up points to head hunter. It also doesn't fix their biggest issue - having been made a separate unit from Celestine and the drawbacks of this change far outweighing the benefits, with the only benefit I see being that they can act independently of her. They're also just worse Zephyrim to the point I'd rather buy two more Zephyrim than either or both Geminae.
Headhunter is ITC house rule crap. Luckily most of the world isn't big on that balance screwing house rule so that doesn't apply.
ITC scenario needs to burn in fire. It skews balance favouring gunlines with indirect weapons and in particular space marines while meanwhile kicking for example orks in teeth just for fun(as if under 50% warrants such a heavy handed nerf as to lose about 20% of win rate)
Not really. They still get all the benefits of characters as well as all of the detriments in a competitive setting, such as giving up points to head hunter. It also doesn't fix their biggest issue - having been made a separate unit from Celestine and the drawbacks of this change far outweighing the benefits, with the only benefit I see being that they can act independently of her. They're also just worse Zephyrim to the point I'd rather buy two more Zephyrim than either or both Geminae.
Headhunter is ITC house rule crap. Luckily most of the world isn't big on that balance screwing house rule so that doesn't apply.
ITC scenario needs to burn in fire. It skews balance favouring gunlines with indirect weapons and in particular space marines while meanwhile kicking for example orks in teeth just for fun(as if under 50% warrants such a heavy handed nerf as to lose about 20% of win rate)
Or, a lot of people in this tactics thread play ITC and Taikishi's viewpoint is vastly more relevant than you jumping at the chance to call out ITC missions as houseruled crap on every page in this thread.
I've not had a chance to actually play a game with sisters yet but I'm just wondering where does the main killing power come from??
I'm going VH infantry heavy with 3 excorcists and some rets backed up by Celestine and some Zepharim if I can get them into the list. My main plan was to just throw all the infantry forward into objectives and sti there tanking wounds and firing back. Plan on using divine guidance and giving my BSS as many bolter weapons as possible to maximise rates of fire.
Then can use Celestine and the Zepharim as counter charge or and them off to cause mischief.
Problem I see is where does most of the killing power come from, are sisters with bolters enough to do serious damage to the enemy or would you need mortifiers etc to help out. Definitely taking 2 X Ret squads to boost firepower one with multi meltas the other with heavy bolters or flamers not sure!
SisterSydney wrote: I appreciate the insights. So what’s the best way — or the least bad way — to run mech Sisters now? 10-girl BSS with combi-flamer, two meltaguns, and maybe imagifer-plus-cherub in Rhino?
valorous heart, three imagifiers, play musical chairs with one or two of them so the transports dont outrun the aura. make one your warlord with the book and indomitable belief and keep him out of LOS or with celestians
mostly rhinos or repressors, one or two immolators because they are handy.
a second detachment of bloody rose where you stack all your seraphim and/or zeraphim
tneva82 wrote:Outrun isn't that big deal. 6" vs 12", 6" aura and lenth of rhino. Unless you roll like 1 for imagifier advance you keep up fairly easily
Wait, the poor Imagifiers are running along behind the Rhinos, as if they missed the bus and are going to be late for work/war? I’d been presuming you would just put characters in an Immolator with a 5-girl squad or in a Rhino with 9....
Lord Katherine, Mr. Whoop, and Jancoran, thanks for your insights on build strategies for smaller games. All ideas are welcome as I continue to tinker...
For a 1k list, I came up with Battalion + Vanguard as follows:
Valorous Heart
Canoness WL (Beacon)
Canoness with BoA and Inferno
3x5 BSS w/stormbolters
Imagifier w/ Stoic
1x5 Dominions w/stormbolters
Exorcist w/ HK
Bloody Rose
Canoness Heroine (Indomitable) w/ Beneficence and Inferno
Imagifier w/ Warrior
Preacher
7x Celestians w/ 2x Melta, Combiflamer, Power Sword, Simulacrum
5x Seraphim w/ Infernos
Rhino
The tactics are simple... BR elements either deep strike or try to get a Rhino across the board, and the VH stormbolters either hug the Exo or move up with the melee Canoness to get good Dakka range.
To take it to 1500, I want to try to add enough Sisters for a second Battalion for the CP, Celestine, and a second Exorcist, which I think will fit... maybe a Penitent if I can squeeze it in. Neither list is meant to be too WAAC, thus going easy on Exorcists, but I do want to showcase the new codex. The GWGM said nobody at the store had played or played against Sisters this edition, so I may cause a bit of a scene.
Rogerio134134 wrote: I've not had a chance to actually play a game with sisters yet but I'm just wondering where does the main killing power come from??
I'm going VH infantry heavy with 3 excorcists and some rets backed up by Celestine and some Zepharim if I can get them into the list. My main plan was to just throw all the infantry forward into objectives and sti there tanking wounds and firing back. Plan on using divine guidance and giving my BSS as many bolter weapons as possible to maximise rates of fire.
Then can use Celestine and the Zepharim as counter charge or and them off to cause mischief.
Problem I see is where does most of the killing power come from, are sisters with bolters enough to do serious damage to the enemy or would you need mortifiers etc to help out. Definitely taking 2 X Ret squads to boost firepower one with multi meltas the other with heavy bolters or flamers not sure!
Unfortunately our best killing weapon is a glass cannon in the Exorcist. From experience Sisters don’t have as much killing power as they do staying power. I’ve been using 30 Zephyrim backed up with Celestine to pick up “easy” kills, and there will always be kills of opportunity, but we’re gonna be very limited on what we can reliably take down until GW gives us more offensive tools to employ in our lists.
Rogerio134134 wrote: I've not had a chance to actually play a game with sisters yet but I'm just wondering where does the main killing power come from??
I'm going VH infantry heavy with 3 excorcists and some rets backed up by Celestine and some Zepharim if I can get them into the list. My main plan was to just throw all the infantry forward into objectives and sti there tanking wounds and firing back. Plan on using divine guidance and giving my BSS as many bolter weapons as possible to maximise rates of fire.
Then can use Celestine and the Zepharim as counter charge or and them off to cause mischief.
Problem I see is where does most of the killing power come from, are sisters with bolters enough to do serious damage to the enemy or would you need mortifiers etc to help out. Definitely taking 2 X Ret squads to boost firepower one with multi meltas the other with heavy bolters or flamers not sure!
Unfortunately our best killing weapon is a glass cannon in the Exorcist. From experience Sisters don’t have as much killing power as they do staying power. I’ve been using 30 Zephyrim backed up with Celestine to pick up “easy” kills, and there will always be kills of opportunity, but we’re gonna be very limited on what we can reliably take down until GW gives us more offensive tools to employ in our lists.
That's cool I thought as much, I'm going to basically play the attrition game similar to DG I think, just try and play objectives and focus fire on units to totally wipe them before moving onto the next one.
Thoughts on inquisitors?? Really fancy adding one after seeing how good coteaz is in my friends Deathwatch list.
I do like =I= and I have used Hector Rex a few times in my list. He’s 20 pts more than Coteaz, but he can deep strike.
So In my 30 Zeph list he deepstikes where I need him and casts Terrify to shut down enemy overwatch. He has more psychic ability than Coteaz and 2+/3++ is powerful. Even with that I don’t take him often as he is 110 pts after all.
MacPhail wrote: Lord Katherine, Mr. Whoop, and Jancoran, thanks for your insights on build strategies for smaller games. All ideas are welcome as I continue to tinker...
For a 1k list, I came up with Battalion + Vanguard as follows:
Valorous Heart
Canoness WL (Beacon)
Canoness with BoA and Inferno
3x5 BSS w/stormbolters
Imagifier w/ Stoic
1x5 Dominions w/stormbolters
Exorcist w/ HK
Bloody Rose
Canoness Heroine (Indomitable) w/ Beneficence and Inferno
Imagifier w/ Warrior
Preacher
7x Celestians w/ 2x Melta, Combiflamer, Power Sword, Simulacrum
5x Seraphim w/ Infernos
Rhino
The tactics are simple... BR elements either deep strike or try to get a Rhino across the board, and the VH stormbolters either hug the Exo or move up with the melee Canoness to get good Dakka range.
To take it to 1500, I want to try to add enough Sisters for a second Battalion for the CP, Celestine, and a second Exorcist, which I think will fit... maybe a Penitent if I can squeeze it in. Neither list is meant to be too WAAC, thus going easy on Exorcists, but I do want to showcase the new codex. The GWGM said nobody at the store had played or played against Sisters this edition, so I may cause a bit of a scene.
I really like to have Repentia in my 1k point Vanguard and a Missionary as a VH Bat HQ. Although I'll cheat and have Becon + Litanies on my Stoic Imagifier...
SisterSydney wrote: I appreciate the insights. So what’s the best way — or the least bad way — to run mech Sisters now? 10-girl BSS with combi-flamer, two meltaguns, and maybe imagifer-plus-cherub in Rhino?
valorous heart, three imagifiers, play musical chairs with one or two of them so the transports dont outrun the aura. make one your warlord with the book and indomitable belief and keep him out of LOS or with celestians
mostly rhinos or repressors, one or two immolators because they are handy.
a second detachment of bloody rose where you stack all your seraphim and/or zeraphim
Don't run combi-flamer. On anything. Holy Trinity is a trap an a waste of CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: It was pointed out CA19 has geminia as 16 pts and in section "wargear included". They are now listed as special characters.
Errata didn't touch this.
Guess this means gemini got 4 pts point drop. Does that make them any better?
tneva82 wrote: Outrun isn't that big deal. 6" vs 12", 6" aura and lenth of rhino. Unless you roll like 1 for imagifier advance you keep up fairly easily
then the people get out of the rhinos
On turn 2. At which point you can string them in more easily anyway.
No. I stick by the statement that they could be free and they would STILL be terrible.
Even free they risk giving up easy kill points AND require you to physically transport them.
They contribute so little to the tabletop that the simple effort required to store and transport them is a real consideration as to whether or not they're worth bringing.
Not really. They still get all the benefits of characters as well as all of the detriments in a competitive setting, such as giving up points to head hunter. It also doesn't fix their biggest issue - having been made a separate unit from Celestine and the drawbacks of this change far outweighing the benefits, with the only benefit I see being that they can act independently of her. They're also just worse Zephyrim to the point I'd rather buy two more Zephyrim than either or both Geminae.
Headhunter is ITC house rule crap. Luckily most of the world isn't big on that balance screwing house rule so that doesn't apply.
ITC scenario needs to burn in fire. It skews balance favouring gunlines with indirect weapons and in particular space marines while meanwhile kicking for example orks in teeth just for fun(as if under 50% warrants such a heavy handed nerf as to lose about 20% of win rate)
Or, a lot of people in this tactics thread play ITC and Taikishi's viewpoint is vastly more relevant than you jumping at the chance to call out ITC missions as houseruled crap on every page in this thread.
We get it. You don't like ITC.
Admittedly, I could have expanded further but:
1. I didn't feel like repeating my thoughts from a few pages ago
2. I was at work at the time
3. once I got off work, I had to study for a calc test
That said, ERJAK sums up some of my feelings on the matter. In ITC or any format where they give up victory points to my opponent, I wouldn't take Geminae if they were free.
1. they underperform vs. Zephyrim even before you take into consideration Sacred Rites and Order Convictions
2. their main job is to buddy up with Celestine to support her and take wounds for her, and they're bad at both
3. they provide nothing to any of your other units
4. Celestine is overpaying for an ability that does almost nothing in Healing Tears because it's more likely both of them will die, especially if they're tanking wounds for her, before she can bring either of them back
For 9 more points you get a Canoness with power sword who has +1W, -2A, a 4++ without being around Celestine, and a re-roll aura.
For 2 more points you get 2 more Zephyrim, which have proven to be better than I initially pegged them. For those two points you:
* gain an innate 5++
* gain Order Convictions
* gain the ability to deep strike
* can re-roll failed to-wound rolls in melee
* lose 2 attacks unless your Order Conviction is Bloody Rose, then you get the same number of attacks when charging and have AP -1 bolt pistols and AP -4 power swords
I agree to an extent, when I do take a Geminae it’s always just 1 to fill the Elite slot for a Brigade as cheap as possible. Oh and they’re 16 pts total per CA2019
Well, I am sick of hearing people go on about "house rules". The ITC is as I said 40% larger than last year and was 30% larger the year before. The ETC debacle has made ITC even more ascendant for competitive play and it wouldn't shock me to see 21,000 ranked players in 2020. A stunning number.
I'm not telling anyone they need to prefer ITC missions. Opinions are cool. Its just the bitchiness I have a hard time with. Its just not necessary to endlessly bitch. Fer serious.
I'm the TO here and I include book missions sometimes for variety and it goes fine. The ITC allows for it. Ask your TO to do it. Maybe he will.
ZergSmasher wrote: Interesting to see you doing well with an Argent Shroud detachment. I've only really thought about combos of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose myself, but then that's because I REALLY want to run a big Repentia bomb. On that note, here's my latest list idea:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Valorous Heart
Canoness: Plasma Pistol, Power Sword, Rod of Office, Warlord (Beacon of Faith)
Celestine
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
5 Battle Sisters: No upgrades
Imagifier: Tale of the Stoic, Book of St. Lucius
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Battalion: Bloody Rose
Canoness: Bolt Pistol, Benificence, Heroine in the Making (Indomitable Belief)
Missionary
10 Battle Sisters: 2x Meltagun, Combimelta, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
10 Battle Sisters: 2x Meltagun, Combimelta, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
Imagifier: Tale of the Warrior
8 Repentia
8 Repentia
Repentia Superior
Repressor: 2x Heavy Flamer
Repressor: 2x Heavy Flamer
Rhino
Rhino
Total 1999 points
Basically I'd put the two big BR melta units in the Repressors, and put the Repentia and characters in the Rhinos. They would move up along with Celestine as a big nasty deathball, getting out of their vehicles as necessary to deal with stuff. Celestine and the Canoness can combine their auras to give the Repentia (and the regular BR sisters) a 4++. Once the melta units disembark, they can use their cherubs and Simulacrums to get the miracle dice train rolling for max damage. The VH stuff pretty much all sits back on objectives and blasts things with the Exorcists. My main concern is that in ITC play this list gives up easy Big Game Hunter and Headhunter, but I wanted to have some fast moving things that can help control the board a bit rather than sitting back in a gunline, hence the mechanized elements.
Well. Lot of armor to kill right? Your hope is they will shoot the Exorcists and the transports will therefore do their work. use up one Repentia unit at a time. Seems legit. Big game, Head Hunter and Butchers bill will be hard not to give up. So it will be playing from behind a little bit.
Thanks for the feedback. Agreed on giving up easy ITC secondaries, but I'm not entirely sure what to change to fix that. Maybe drop the transports entirely and just run everything up the board at the enemy? Seems like giving up a lot of mobility and survivability, but the extra points could get me more units/bodies, like maybe a unit of Mortifiers/PenEngines. Plus with Celestine the girls would be rocking a 4++ so not exactly pushovers. I'd probably switch to a VH Brigade and BR Vanguard if I went that route.
As I've said multiple times earlier, I'm trying to get feedback and insights on stuff ASAP in order to determine purchases, as I'm building my Sisters army from the ground up rather than basing it on a preexisting metal army. So I'm grateful for anything people can do to help me figure things out and find the good combos and stuff.
Thing is this forum is to discuss competitive play regardless of if it’s in the context of ITC or not.
Sisters are a minority faction so let’s try to help each other get better regardless of what tournament rules we prefer.
I play ITC missions exclusively unless it’s a pickup game, so I’m here to discuss that but everyone has their preferences.
As an aside, talking about Legends, we all have opinions about what should and shouldn’t be allowed, but realistically it all comes down to your opponent or if it’s in a tournament setting what that tournament allows.
I think we should move on from here and discuss best tactics and unit synergy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Zergsmasher - there’s just so much to cover in best units and synergies you’d really need to go through the entire thread or alternatively there’s some unit reviews on goonhammer and
1d4chan also is worth a read. I’ll give you my current tournament list and why it works...
Being as vehicles in this meta are easy kills, ive come up with a “fast” list that works pretty well for me. The key to this list is to keep hugging cover/ opponents and get close enough to use the meltas on the big stuff all the while tie things up with the fliers and Celestine.
It’s a fun list but takes some skill to pilot.
I usually start with all 6 units of Seraphim and Zephyrim in reserve.
Dominions scout pregame 6” then advance (+1) to get into cover somewhere.
My units advance (+1) to get into cover and can still shoot meltas due to being assault weapons. My fly units tie things up and the Zephyrim are nasty on the charge. I always use miracle dice to get the charge in and the (+1) from sacred rites helps a lot.
Possible secondaries given up: I have 5 characters but I protect them so they’re not easy to get; between the 3 Zephyrim squads and Celestine I have 4 units that could give up Marked for Death, but I make that hard for them as well. Butchers Bill and Reaper are the big easies for this list.
ZergSmasher wrote: Interesting to see you doing well with an Argent Shroud detachment. I've only really thought about combos of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose myself, but then that's because I REALLY want to run a big Repentia bomb. On that note, here's my latest list idea:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Valorous Heart
Canoness: Plasma Pistol, Power Sword, Rod of Office, Warlord (Beacon of Faith)
Celestine
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
5 Battle Sisters: No upgrades
Imagifier: Tale of the Stoic, Book of St. Lucius
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Battalion: Bloody Rose
Canoness: Bolt Pistol, Benificence, Heroine in the Making (Indomitable Belief)
Missionary
10 Battle Sisters: 2x Meltagun, Combimelta, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
10 Battle Sisters: 2x Meltagun, Combimelta, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
Imagifier: Tale of the Warrior
8 Repentia
8 Repentia
Repentia Superior
Repressor: 2x Heavy Flamer
Repressor: 2x Heavy Flamer
Rhino
Rhino
Total 1999 points
Basically I'd put the two big BR melta units in the Repressors, and put the Repentia and characters in the Rhinos. They would move up along with Celestine as a big nasty deathball, getting out of their vehicles as necessary to deal with stuff. Celestine and the Canoness can combine their auras to give the Repentia (and the regular BR sisters) a 4++. Once the melta units disembark, they can use their cherubs and Simulacrums to get the miracle dice train rolling for max damage. The VH stuff pretty much all sits back on objectives and blasts things with the Exorcists. My main concern is that in ITC play this list gives up easy Big Game Hunter and Headhunter, but I wanted to have some fast moving things that can help control the board a bit rather than sitting back in a gunline, hence the mechanized elements.
Well. Lot of armor to kill right? Your hope is they will shoot the Exorcists and the transports will therefore do their work. use up one Repentia unit at a time. Seems legit. Big game, Head Hunter and Butchers bill will be hard not to give up. So it will be playing from behind a little bit.
Thanks for the feedback. Agreed on giving up easy ITC secondaries, but I'm not entirely sure what to change to fix that. Maybe drop the transports entirely and just run everything up the board at the enemy? Seems like giving up a lot of mobility and survivability, but the extra points could get me more units/bodies, like maybe a unit of Mortifiers/PenEngines. Plus with Celestine the girls would be rocking a 4++ so not exactly pushovers. I'd probably switch to a VH Brigade and BR Vanguard if I went that route.
As I've said multiple times earlier, I'm trying to get feedback and insights on stuff ASAP in order to determine purchases, as I'm building my Sisters army from the ground up rather than basing it on a preexisting metal army. So I'm grateful for anything people can do to help me figure things out and find the good combos and stuff.
Well, you have got choices to make. That much armor can really play well to board control and you might easily score Recon, Engineers and one other determined by your opponents build. So it just puts pressure on you to monitor those primaries very closely every round.
Wait, the poor Imagifiers are running along behind the Rhinos, as if they missed the bus and are going to be late for work/war? I’d been presuming you would just put characters in an Immolator with a 5-girl squad or in a Rhino with 9....
If you put imagifiers inside vehicles then good bye -2 ignoring. Your vehicles will pop instantly. With imagifiers out you ignore AP of most common AT weapons. If you are inside your vehicle save will go to 5+ instantly. So basically imagiifer outside doubles your survivability.
There's no place for imagifer like outside.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SisterSydney wrote: Can we stop debating ITC now and agree to disagree? Please.....
Problem is we have only one threa that should have ITC and real 40k. The two are completely different games. Makes as much sense to have both in same as have tactics about sisters of battle and stormcast eternals together. ITC and 40k are different games.
ZergSmasher wrote: Interesting to see you doing well with an Argent Shroud detachment. I've only really thought about combos of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose myself, but then that's because I REALLY want to run a big Repentia bomb. On that note, here's my latest list idea:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Valorous Heart
Canoness: Plasma Pistol, Power Sword, Rod of Office, Warlord (Beacon of Faith)
Celestine
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
5 Battle Sisters: No upgrades
Imagifier: Tale of the Stoic, Book of St. Lucius
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Battalion: Bloody Rose
Canoness: Bolt Pistol, Benificence, Heroine in the Making (Indomitable Belief)
Missionary
10 Battle Sisters: 2x Meltagun, Combimelta, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
10 Battle Sisters: 2x Meltagun, Combimelta, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
Imagifier: Tale of the Warrior
8 Repentia
8 Repentia
Repentia Superior
Repressor: 2x Heavy Flamer
Repressor: 2x Heavy Flamer
Rhino
Rhino
Total 1999 points
Basically I'd put the two big BR melta units in the Repressors, and put the Repentia and characters in the Rhinos. They would move up along with Celestine as a big nasty deathball, getting out of their vehicles as necessary to deal with stuff. Celestine and the Canoness can combine their auras to give the Repentia (and the regular BR sisters) a 4++. Once the melta units disembark, they can use their cherubs and Simulacrums to get the miracle dice train rolling for max damage. The VH stuff pretty much all sits back on objectives and blasts things with the Exorcists. My main concern is that in ITC play this list gives up easy Big Game Hunter and Headhunter, but I wanted to have some fast moving things that can help control the board a bit rather than sitting back in a gunline, hence the mechanized elements.
Well. Lot of armor to kill right? Your hope is they will shoot the Exorcists and the transports will therefore do their work. use up one Repentia unit at a time. Seems legit. Big game, Head Hunter and Butchers bill will be hard not to give up. So it will be playing from behind a little bit.
Thanks for the feedback. Agreed on giving up easy ITC secondaries, but I'm not entirely sure what to change to fix that. Maybe drop the transports entirely and just run everything up the board at the enemy? Seems like giving up a lot of mobility and survivability, but the extra points could get me more units/bodies, like maybe a unit of Mortifiers/PenEngines. Plus with Celestine the girls would be rocking a 4++ so not exactly pushovers. I'd probably switch to a VH Brigade and BR Vanguard if I went that route.
As I've said multiple times earlier, I'm trying to get feedback and insights on stuff ASAP in order to determine purchases, as I'm building my Sisters army from the ground up rather than basing it on a preexisting metal army. So I'm grateful for anything people can do to help me figure things out and find the good combos and stuff.
I don't really know what do about denying secondaries either. As a Guard player I just automatically yield Big Game and Reaper, and I expect to do the same with Butcher's Bill and Big Game as Sisters. With 3 Exorcists, if I want to have any other vehicles like a Rhino or Pengine then I give up Big Game, and if I go foot horde I give up Reaper, and if I go MSU foot horde I also give up Butcher's Bill. I just sort of plan on winning on mains, and making sure to plan around maxing out three secondaries of my choice that I know I can always chose of the enemy doesn't give up something easy.
I usually have like Engineers, since cheap troop units trying to hide out of LoS are good for engineers and nobody wants to put fire into a 2+ Sisters unit that isn't shooting back. I like Recon too, because it will naturally complete if I have good board control, and good board control also transfers into scoring well on mains.
There's also a consideration between having a lot of units and thus having CP and having fewer stronger units, which protects against both the Kill More primary and all the Kill secondaries.
Lemondish wrote: I don't care if you can get Chinese recasts. I don't care if you can proxy. I don't care if you have them today. A unit with no available model has no place, and the competitive community has accepted that for Legends. It is inevitable that they accept it for FW's retired back catalog, should we desire to be exactly as consistent in our approach as we often wish GW to be.
MacPhail wrote: Lord Katherine, Mr. Whoop, and Jancoran, thanks for your insights on build strategies for smaller games. All ideas are welcome as I continue to tinker...
For a 1k list, I came up with Battalion + Vanguard as follows:
Spoiler:
Valorous Heart
Canoness WL (Beacon)
Canoness with BoA and Inferno
3x5 BSS w/stormbolters
Imagifier w/ Stoic
1x5 Dominions w/stormbolters
Exorcist w/ HK
Bloody Rose
Canoness Heroine (Indomitable) w/ Beneficence and Inferno
Imagifier w/ Warrior
Preacher
7x Celestians w/ 2x Melta, Combiflamer, Power Sword, Simulacrum
5x Seraphim w/ Infernos
Rhino
The tactics are simple... BR elements either deep strike or try to get a Rhino across the board, and the VH stormbolters either hug the Exo or move up with the melee Canoness to get good Dakka range.
To take it to 1500, I want to try to add enough Sisters for a second Battalion for the CP, Celestine, and a second Exorcist, which I think will fit... maybe a Penitent if I can squeeze it in. Neither list is meant to be too WAAC, thus going easy on Exorcists, but I do want to showcase the new codex. The GWGM said nobody at the store had played or played against Sisters this edition, so I may cause a bit of a scene.
I really like to have Repentia in my 1k point Vanguard and a Missionary as a VH Bat HQ. Although I'll cheat and have Becon + Litanies on my Stoic Imagifier...
Nice... The Imagifier trick is a good one and I'll use it when the time comes... probably exactly as done here. The Missionary seems like he does all the right things, but I have been enjoying the three Canoness option... I'm never sad to have an extra one of those to throw into the thickest part of the fighting. I haven't built the Arcos or Repentia from the army box yet... Zephyrim conversions first, then them. I think they'll replace retributers in my 2k list, and from the batreps I've seen they can be devastating. Thanks for the ideas!
Jancoran wrote: Well, I am sick of hearing people go on about "house rules". The ITC is as I said 40% larger than last year and was 30% larger the year before. The ETC debacle has made ITC even more ascendant for competitive play and it wouldn't shock me to see 21,000 ranked players in 2020. A stunning number.
I'm not telling anyone they need to prefer ITC missions. Opinions are cool. Its just the bitchiness I have a hard time with. Its just not necessary to endlessly bitch. Fer serious.
I'm the TO here and I include book missions sometimes for variety and it goes fine. The ITC allows for it. Ask your TO to do it. Maybe he will.
Part of the reason folks are so vehemently opposed to ITC is largely because of its poorly designed secondaries. That format further exacerbates inherent balance issues. Look at the top IH list from LVO and you'll see just how skewed it can get. It denies kill secondaries so well, forcing your opponent to seek board control opportunities instead, which are then countered by an IH castle destroying you.
It is a list tailor made for that style of event. Whereas if you look at top lists at Caledonia Uprising, you'll see a variety of units that never in a million years would be found in an ITC event because they give up easy secondaries.
In a tactics thread, ITC talk is relevant only in the context of ITC events. If a unit is being dumped on entirely and only because of its ITC impact, then I think it's fair to call that out. I suppose it's a good thing that this isn't the case here.
There are 5 other, better reasons not to consider them competitively before you get to the ITC impact.
.
