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SisterSydney wrote: I appreciate the insights. So what’s the best way — or the least bad way — to run mech Sisters now? 10-girl BSS with combi-flamer, two meltaguns, and maybe imagifer-plus-cherub in Rhino?
valorous heart, three imagifiers, play musical chairs with one or two of them so the transports dont outrun the aura. make one your warlord with the book and indomitable belief and keep him out of LOS or with celestians
mostly rhinos or repressors, one or two immolators because they are handy.
a second detachment of bloody rose where you stack all your seraphim and/or zeraphim
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I don't know why, but your comment really angered me so I'll show you how pay to win I am.
I want to field my metal Canoness with power maul sand combi-flamer and I can't because Legends is banned in tournaments and my play group uses tournament rules. I want to field my metal superiors with storm bolters and can't because of Legends.
If I'm pay to win because of models I've had for years that aren't breaking anything other than GW's wallet for not providing me plastic alternatives, then *censored* yes, I'm play to win.
Gareth_Evans wrote: Thanks for the detailed reply. The ability to give a 5 up invuln is
Ordo Malleus – Power Through Knowledge – WC6: Give an IMPERIUM BIKER or INFANTRY unit a 5++ till your next psychic phase.
I got this from goonhammer's review on Index Inquisition.
There's a lot for me to think about in what you've said - list building really is some sort of art form! I'm intrigued with the large 15 model BSS squads, most people have been discussing MSU, but that gives up a lot of points, and I guess the durability of 15 model melta squads makes them a more credible threat in the end. Did you use the strat to disengage a lot? You mentioned charging and wrapping to move up (again easier with big squads).
Also I was thinking for 1 CP it would be possible to give an imagifer +1 strength as well, thus boosting the 15 model squads to 4 STR, would this be worth it?
Thank you for the explanation. Helpful!
So my plan was to use the strat to fall back with Red Squad after charging the Bullgryns, as you surmised. Unfortunately, when the time came, his Assassin was using that thing that drains your CP and I just couldn't; so i settled for falling back normally and then letting the Arco's get in there. it didn't affect the outcome but yes, that was supposed to be the plan. It is what it is though. He kinda put me in a resource pickle. Oh and BTW, Sisters don't do hardly anything in melee, as if that were news. I think i missed 12 out of 14 to wound rolls even with the Missionary and Canoness helping us to hit. Lol. Hilarious. I mostly did it for free movement. I don't find fault in wanting to get them +1 STR for that reason. I would just wonder why you'd want to spend 40 points on them for a combat they will likely lose anyways. Let them lose. it's fine as long as they do what you need them to. Sisters never really run anyways. They're dead or steadfast. now if you were buffing Repentia, sure. Different entirely. They need that str boost.
As for the list building being an art form, I suppose it kind of is. i think that the tactics are more important. If you know what you need to accomplish per se, and what you want your enemy to DO, then finding units who can do that is easier than math hammering things to death and taking "the best" units ten times, and THEN figuring out what you're going to do with them later (which I see a lot of online and in person). i say this as one who is notably good at math. I know what the best units ARE but I also know that building units like that isn't always best. Some can force you to do ONLY one thing. I don't like that. I like it when the enemy really cannot cut the head off of the snake, because there really isn't one.
My lists may look different because I'm specifically trying to choreograph certain things and then I find the unit for whatever that is with reliability in mind. I didn't use Crisis suits in 5th, 6th and 7th editions hardly at all in my tau list for that reason. I wanted to do a certain thing and also get the opponent to do a certain thing. The units it took to illicit the enemies responses and for me to be able to react how i wanted to just didn't find the "best units" to be the best FIT for a very long time. Took a lot of flakk online for my T'au lists but at end of day... I mean... You couldn't argue with results, even if you could argue with me, ya know? I still have only ever played Triple tide once.
Sisters are the same way. I've viewed them differently all along pretty much from 4th-8th. They have been very good to me even when they sucked on paper. Tons o tournament wins over the years with them. True story: I won two tournaments i played in after the silly White Dwarf "codex" dropped for sisters, using one of literally every unit in the codex. Hand on the Bible, that's true. Just made an army list with one of everything and gave it a whirl. Penitent Engine, and even the Sororitas Command Squad which was MUCH maligned here on DakkaDakka. Celestians. All of it. It was so fun.
The reason I say that is to say this: The list can't win it for you. make a smart list, a clever list, make sure you have the tools you need in order to carry out your PLAN, but also don't buy into the idea that you cant win if you don't take "the meta list". Tilt your head to the left, and see things from another perspective. Force yourself to try to find the way THAT something WILL work instead of always grabbing the low hanging fruit of conventional wisdom that it won't.
Just food for thought.
The act of building your list goes a long way to helping you succeed, if one thinks about it. Every unit in your list should be chosen with purpose. Consider how you're going to win, and how the enemy is going to win, and select units that will perform a function towards one of those two strategies. It is my opinion that any unit that does not have a job in your strategy, or upgrade that does not enable or protect the unit's function, should be deleted from the list and replaced with one that does. "Is fluffy" is not a job that contributes towards victory.
Taking "good stuff tribal" will only get you so far, if you don't have a path to victory.
On the other hand I also believe strongly in the mathhammer. If I select a unit to do something, I want it to be good at what it does.
As for the Repressor & Legends debate. I also believe that OOP models should be restricted in standard play. If you can't get it, it shouldn't be a standard option. Magic only has the most 5 recent sets in standard, which they write most of their sets around being balanced towards with some side attention to preserving the health of modern. And while individual cards are cheaper than miniatures, no doubt, I see no problem with a model that hasn't been purchasable for like half a decade and will probably never be returned not being in the competitive army lists.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/10 17:52:06
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
I mean, I'm fine with what they did with Legends. Make it optional but still playable if everyone agrees to it. At least they're not making it ENTIRELY unplayable unlike previous editons!
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
tneva82 wrote: Outrun isn't that big deal. 6" vs 12", 6" aura and lenth of rhino. Unless you roll like 1 for imagifier advance you keep up fairly easily
then the people get out of the rhinos
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tneva82 wrote: Outrun isn't that big deal. 6" vs 12", 6" aura and lenth of rhino. Unless you roll like 1 for imagifier advance you keep up fairly easily
then the people get out of the rhinos
On turn 2. At which point you can string them in more easily anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/10 19:55:25
Not really. They still get all the benefits of characters as well as all of the detriments in a competitive setting, such as giving up points to head hunter. It also doesn't fix their biggest issue - having been made a separate unit from Celestine and the drawbacks of this change far outweighing the benefits, with the only benefit I see being that they can act independently of her. They're also just worse Zephyrim to the point I'd rather buy two more Zephyrim than either or both Geminae.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/10 20:41:57
Not really. They still get all the benefits of characters as well as all of the detriments in a competitive setting, such as giving up points to head hunter. It also doesn't fix their biggest issue - having been made a separate unit from Celestine and the drawbacks of this change far outweighing the benefits, with the only benefit I see being that they can act independently of her. They're also just worse Zephyrim to the point I'd rather buy two more Zephyrim than either or both Geminae.
Headhunter is ITC house rule crap. Luckily most of the world isn't big on that balance screwing house rule so that doesn't apply.
ITC scenario needs to burn in fire. It skews balance favouring gunlines with indirect weapons and in particular space marines while meanwhile kicking for example orks in teeth just for fun(as if under 50% warrants such a heavy handed nerf as to lose about 20% of win rate)
Not really. They still get all the benefits of characters as well as all of the detriments in a competitive setting, such as giving up points to head hunter. It also doesn't fix their biggest issue - having been made a separate unit from Celestine and the drawbacks of this change far outweighing the benefits, with the only benefit I see being that they can act independently of her. They're also just worse Zephyrim to the point I'd rather buy two more Zephyrim than either or both Geminae.
Headhunter is ITC house rule crap. Luckily most of the world isn't big on that balance screwing house rule so that doesn't apply.
ITC scenario needs to burn in fire. It skews balance favouring gunlines with indirect weapons and in particular space marines while meanwhile kicking for example orks in teeth just for fun(as if under 50% warrants such a heavy handed nerf as to lose about 20% of win rate)
Or, a lot of people in this tactics thread play ITC and Taikishi's viewpoint is vastly more relevant than you jumping at the chance to call out ITC missions as houseruled crap on every page in this thread.
I've not had a chance to actually play a game with sisters yet but I'm just wondering where does the main killing power come from??
I'm going VH infantry heavy with 3 excorcists and some rets backed up by Celestine and some Zepharim if I can get them into the list. My main plan was to just throw all the infantry forward into objectives and sti there tanking wounds and firing back. Plan on using divine guidance and giving my BSS as many bolter weapons as possible to maximise rates of fire.
Then can use Celestine and the Zepharim as counter charge or and them off to cause mischief.
Problem I see is where does most of the killing power come from, are sisters with bolters enough to do serious damage to the enemy or would you need mortifiers etc to help out. Definitely taking 2 X Ret squads to boost firepower one with multi meltas the other with heavy bolters or flamers not sure!
SisterSydney wrote: I appreciate the insights. So what’s the best way — or the least bad way — to run mech Sisters now? 10-girl BSS with combi-flamer, two meltaguns, and maybe imagifer-plus-cherub in Rhino?
valorous heart, three imagifiers, play musical chairs with one or two of them so the transports dont outrun the aura. make one your warlord with the book and indomitable belief and keep him out of LOS or with celestians
mostly rhinos or repressors, one or two immolators because they are handy.
a second detachment of bloody rose where you stack all your seraphim and/or zeraphim
tneva82 wrote:Outrun isn't that big deal. 6" vs 12", 6" aura and lenth of rhino. Unless you roll like 1 for imagifier advance you keep up fairly easily
Wait, the poor Imagifiers are running along behind the Rhinos, as if they missed the bus and are going to be late for work/war? I’d been presuming you would just put characters in an Immolator with a 5-girl squad or in a Rhino with 9....
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Lord Katherine, Mr. Whoop, and Jancoran, thanks for your insights on build strategies for smaller games. All ideas are welcome as I continue to tinker...
For a 1k list, I came up with Battalion + Vanguard as follows:
Valorous Heart
Canoness WL (Beacon)
Canoness with BoA and Inferno
3x5 BSS w/stormbolters
Imagifier w/ Stoic
1x5 Dominions w/stormbolters
Exorcist w/ HK
Bloody Rose
Canoness Heroine (Indomitable) w/ Beneficence and Inferno
Imagifier w/ Warrior
Preacher
7x Celestians w/ 2x Melta, Combiflamer, Power Sword, Simulacrum
5x Seraphim w/ Infernos
Rhino
The tactics are simple... BR elements either deep strike or try to get a Rhino across the board, and the VH stormbolters either hug the Exo or move up with the melee Canoness to get good Dakka range.
To take it to 1500, I want to try to add enough Sisters for a second Battalion for the CP, Celestine, and a second Exorcist, which I think will fit... maybe a Penitent if I can squeeze it in. Neither list is meant to be too WAAC, thus going easy on Exorcists, but I do want to showcase the new codex. The GWGM said nobody at the store had played or played against Sisters this edition, so I may cause a bit of a scene.
Rogerio134134 wrote: I've not had a chance to actually play a game with sisters yet but I'm just wondering where does the main killing power come from??
I'm going VH infantry heavy with 3 excorcists and some rets backed up by Celestine and some Zepharim if I can get them into the list. My main plan was to just throw all the infantry forward into objectives and sti there tanking wounds and firing back. Plan on using divine guidance and giving my BSS as many bolter weapons as possible to maximise rates of fire.
Then can use Celestine and the Zepharim as counter charge or and them off to cause mischief.
Problem I see is where does most of the killing power come from, are sisters with bolters enough to do serious damage to the enemy or would you need mortifiers etc to help out. Definitely taking 2 X Ret squads to boost firepower one with multi meltas the other with heavy bolters or flamers not sure!
Unfortunately our best killing weapon is a glass cannon in the Exorcist. From experience Sisters don’t have as much killing power as they do staying power. I’ve been using 30 Zephyrim backed up with Celestine to pick up “easy” kills, and there will always be kills of opportunity, but we’re gonna be very limited on what we can reliably take down until GW gives us more offensive tools to employ in our lists.
Rogerio134134 wrote: I've not had a chance to actually play a game with sisters yet but I'm just wondering where does the main killing power come from??
I'm going VH infantry heavy with 3 excorcists and some rets backed up by Celestine and some Zepharim if I can get them into the list. My main plan was to just throw all the infantry forward into objectives and sti there tanking wounds and firing back. Plan on using divine guidance and giving my BSS as many bolter weapons as possible to maximise rates of fire.
Then can use Celestine and the Zepharim as counter charge or and them off to cause mischief.
Problem I see is where does most of the killing power come from, are sisters with bolters enough to do serious damage to the enemy or would you need mortifiers etc to help out. Definitely taking 2 X Ret squads to boost firepower one with multi meltas the other with heavy bolters or flamers not sure!
Unfortunately our best killing weapon is a glass cannon in the Exorcist. From experience Sisters don’t have as much killing power as they do staying power. I’ve been using 30 Zephyrim backed up with Celestine to pick up “easy” kills, and there will always be kills of opportunity, but we’re gonna be very limited on what we can reliably take down until GW gives us more offensive tools to employ in our lists.
That's cool I thought as much, I'm going to basically play the attrition game similar to DG I think, just try and play objectives and focus fire on units to totally wipe them before moving onto the next one.
Thoughts on inquisitors?? Really fancy adding one after seeing how good coteaz is in my friends Deathwatch list.
I do like =I= and I have used Hector Rex a few times in my list. He’s 20 pts more than Coteaz, but he can deep strike.
So In my 30 Zeph list he deepstikes where I need him and casts Terrify to shut down enemy overwatch. He has more psychic ability than Coteaz and 2+/3++ is powerful. Even with that I don’t take him often as he is 110 pts after all.
MacPhail wrote: Lord Katherine, Mr. Whoop, and Jancoran, thanks for your insights on build strategies for smaller games. All ideas are welcome as I continue to tinker...
For a 1k list, I came up with Battalion + Vanguard as follows:
Valorous Heart
Canoness WL (Beacon)
Canoness with BoA and Inferno
3x5 BSS w/stormbolters
Imagifier w/ Stoic
1x5 Dominions w/stormbolters
Exorcist w/ HK
Bloody Rose
Canoness Heroine (Indomitable) w/ Beneficence and Inferno
Imagifier w/ Warrior
Preacher
7x Celestians w/ 2x Melta, Combiflamer, Power Sword, Simulacrum
5x Seraphim w/ Infernos
Rhino
The tactics are simple... BR elements either deep strike or try to get a Rhino across the board, and the VH stormbolters either hug the Exo or move up with the melee Canoness to get good Dakka range.
To take it to 1500, I want to try to add enough Sisters for a second Battalion for the CP, Celestine, and a second Exorcist, which I think will fit... maybe a Penitent if I can squeeze it in. Neither list is meant to be too WAAC, thus going easy on Exorcists, but I do want to showcase the new codex. The GWGM said nobody at the store had played or played against Sisters this edition, so I may cause a bit of a scene.
I really like to have Repentia in my 1k point Vanguard and a Missionary as a VH Bat HQ. Although I'll cheat and have Becon + Litanies on my Stoic Imagifier...
SisterSydney wrote: I appreciate the insights. So what’s the best way — or the least bad way — to run mech Sisters now? 10-girl BSS with combi-flamer, two meltaguns, and maybe imagifer-plus-cherub in Rhino?
valorous heart, three imagifiers, play musical chairs with one or two of them so the transports dont outrun the aura. make one your warlord with the book and indomitable belief and keep him out of LOS or with celestians
mostly rhinos or repressors, one or two immolators because they are handy.
a second detachment of bloody rose where you stack all your seraphim and/or zeraphim
Don't run combi-flamer. On anything. Holy Trinity is a trap an a waste of CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
tneva82 wrote: It was pointed out CA19 has geminia as 16 pts and in section "wargear included". They are now listed as special characters.
Errata didn't touch this.
Guess this means gemini got 4 pts point drop. Does that make them any better?
tneva82 wrote: Outrun isn't that big deal. 6" vs 12", 6" aura and lenth of rhino. Unless you roll like 1 for imagifier advance you keep up fairly easily
then the people get out of the rhinos
On turn 2. At which point you can string them in more easily anyway.
No. I stick by the statement that they could be free and they would STILL be terrible.
Even free they risk giving up easy kill points AND require you to physically transport them.
They contribute so little to the tabletop that the simple effort required to store and transport them is a real consideration as to whether or not they're worth bringing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/11 02:54:32
Not really. They still get all the benefits of characters as well as all of the detriments in a competitive setting, such as giving up points to head hunter. It also doesn't fix their biggest issue - having been made a separate unit from Celestine and the drawbacks of this change far outweighing the benefits, with the only benefit I see being that they can act independently of her. They're also just worse Zephyrim to the point I'd rather buy two more Zephyrim than either or both Geminae.
Headhunter is ITC house rule crap. Luckily most of the world isn't big on that balance screwing house rule so that doesn't apply.
ITC scenario needs to burn in fire. It skews balance favouring gunlines with indirect weapons and in particular space marines while meanwhile kicking for example orks in teeth just for fun(as if under 50% warrants such a heavy handed nerf as to lose about 20% of win rate)
Or, a lot of people in this tactics thread play ITC and Taikishi's viewpoint is vastly more relevant than you jumping at the chance to call out ITC missions as houseruled crap on every page in this thread.
We get it. You don't like ITC.
Admittedly, I could have expanded further but:
1. I didn't feel like repeating my thoughts from a few pages ago
2. I was at work at the time
3. once I got off work, I had to study for a calc test
That said, ERJAK sums up some of my feelings on the matter. In ITC or any format where they give up victory points to my opponent, I wouldn't take Geminae if they were free.
1. they underperform vs. Zephyrim even before you take into consideration Sacred Rites and Order Convictions
2. their main job is to buddy up with Celestine to support her and take wounds for her, and they're bad at both
3. they provide nothing to any of your other units
4. Celestine is overpaying for an ability that does almost nothing in Healing Tears because it's more likely both of them will die, especially if they're tanking wounds for her, before she can bring either of them back
For 9 more points you get a Canoness with power sword who has +1W, -2A, a 4++ without being around Celestine, and a re-roll aura.
For 2 more points you get 2 more Zephyrim, which have proven to be better than I initially pegged them. For those two points you:
* gain an innate 5++
* gain Order Convictions
* gain the ability to deep strike
* can re-roll failed to-wound rolls in melee
* lose 2 attacks unless your Order Conviction is Bloody Rose, then you get the same number of attacks when charging and have AP -1 bolt pistols and AP -4 power swords
I agree to an extent, when I do take a Geminae it’s always just 1 to fill the Elite slot for a Brigade as cheap as possible. Oh and they’re 16 pts total per CA2019
Well, I am sick of hearing people go on about "house rules". The ITC is as I said 40% larger than last year and was 30% larger the year before. The ETC debacle has made ITC even more ascendant for competitive play and it wouldn't shock me to see 21,000 ranked players in 2020. A stunning number.
I'm not telling anyone they need to prefer ITC missions. Opinions are cool. Its just the bitchiness I have a hard time with. Its just not necessary to endlessly bitch. Fer serious.
I'm the TO here and I include book missions sometimes for variety and it goes fine. The ITC allows for it. Ask your TO to do it. Maybe he will.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Can we stop debating ITC now and agree to disagree? Please.....
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
ZergSmasher wrote: Interesting to see you doing well with an Argent Shroud detachment. I've only really thought about combos of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose myself, but then that's because I REALLY want to run a big Repentia bomb. On that note, here's my latest list idea:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Valorous Heart
Canoness: Plasma Pistol, Power Sword, Rod of Office, Warlord (Beacon of Faith)
Celestine
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
5 Battle Sisters: No upgrades
Imagifier: Tale of the Stoic, Book of St. Lucius
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Battalion: Bloody Rose
Canoness: Bolt Pistol, Benificence, Heroine in the Making (Indomitable Belief)
Missionary
10 Battle Sisters: 2x Meltagun, Combimelta, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
10 Battle Sisters: 2x Meltagun, Combimelta, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
Imagifier: Tale of the Warrior
8 Repentia
8 Repentia
Repentia Superior
Repressor: 2x Heavy Flamer
Repressor: 2x Heavy Flamer
Rhino
Rhino
Total 1999 points
Basically I'd put the two big BR melta units in the Repressors, and put the Repentia and characters in the Rhinos. They would move up along with Celestine as a big nasty deathball, getting out of their vehicles as necessary to deal with stuff. Celestine and the Canoness can combine their auras to give the Repentia (and the regular BR sisters) a 4++. Once the melta units disembark, they can use their cherubs and Simulacrums to get the miracle dice train rolling for max damage. The VH stuff pretty much all sits back on objectives and blasts things with the Exorcists. My main concern is that in ITC play this list gives up easy Big Game Hunter and Headhunter, but I wanted to have some fast moving things that can help control the board a bit rather than sitting back in a gunline, hence the mechanized elements.
Well. Lot of armor to kill right? Your hope is they will shoot the Exorcists and the transports will therefore do their work. use up one Repentia unit at a time. Seems legit. Big game, Head Hunter and Butchers bill will be hard not to give up. So it will be playing from behind a little bit.
Thanks for the feedback. Agreed on giving up easy ITC secondaries, but I'm not entirely sure what to change to fix that. Maybe drop the transports entirely and just run everything up the board at the enemy? Seems like giving up a lot of mobility and survivability, but the extra points could get me more units/bodies, like maybe a unit of Mortifiers/PenEngines. Plus with Celestine the girls would be rocking a 4++ so not exactly pushovers. I'd probably switch to a VH Brigade and BR Vanguard if I went that route.
As I've said multiple times earlier, I'm trying to get feedback and insights on stuff ASAP in order to determine purchases, as I'm building my Sisters army from the ground up rather than basing it on a preexisting metal army. So I'm grateful for anything people can do to help me figure things out and find the good combos and stuff.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/1/23, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~15000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: ~1900 | Imperial Knights: ~2000 | Sisters of Battle: ~3500 | Leagues of Votann: ~1200 | Tyranids: ~2600 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2023: 40 | Total models painted in 2024: 12 | Current main painting project: Dark Angels
Mr_Rose wrote: Who doesn’t love crazy mutant squawk-puppies? Eh? Nobody, that’s who.
Thing is this forum is to discuss competitive play regardless of if it’s in the context of ITC or not.
Sisters are a minority faction so let’s try to help each other get better regardless of what tournament rules we prefer.
I play ITC missions exclusively unless it’s a pickup game, so I’m here to discuss that but everyone has their preferences.
As an aside, talking about Legends, we all have opinions about what should and shouldn’t be allowed, but realistically it all comes down to your opponent or if it’s in a tournament setting what that tournament allows.
I think we should move on from here and discuss best tactics and unit synergy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Zergsmasher - there’s just so much to cover in best units and synergies you’d really need to go through the entire thread or alternatively there’s some unit reviews on goonhammer and
1d4chan also is worth a read. I’ll give you my current tournament list and why it works...
Being as vehicles in this meta are easy kills, ive come up with a “fast” list that works pretty well for me. The key to this list is to keep hugging cover/ opponents and get close enough to use the meltas on the big stuff all the while tie things up with the fliers and Celestine.
It’s a fun list but takes some skill to pilot.
I usually start with all 6 units of Seraphim and Zephyrim in reserve.
Dominions scout pregame 6” then advance (+1) to get into cover somewhere.
My units advance (+1) to get into cover and can still shoot meltas due to being assault weapons. My fly units tie things up and the Zephyrim are nasty on the charge. I always use miracle dice to get the charge in and the (+1) from sacred rites helps a lot.
Possible secondaries given up: I have 5 characters but I protect them so they’re not easy to get; between the 3 Zephyrim squads and Celestine I have 4 units that could give up Marked for Death, but I make that hard for them as well. Butchers Bill and Reaper are the big easies for this list.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/11 05:45:56
ZergSmasher wrote: Interesting to see you doing well with an Argent Shroud detachment. I've only really thought about combos of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose myself, but then that's because I REALLY want to run a big Repentia bomb. On that note, here's my latest list idea:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Valorous Heart
Canoness: Plasma Pistol, Power Sword, Rod of Office, Warlord (Beacon of Faith)
Celestine
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
5 Battle Sisters: No upgrades
Imagifier: Tale of the Stoic, Book of St. Lucius
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Battalion: Bloody Rose
Canoness: Bolt Pistol, Benificence, Heroine in the Making (Indomitable Belief)
Missionary
10 Battle Sisters: 2x Meltagun, Combimelta, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
10 Battle Sisters: 2x Meltagun, Combimelta, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
Imagifier: Tale of the Warrior
8 Repentia
8 Repentia
Repentia Superior
Repressor: 2x Heavy Flamer
Repressor: 2x Heavy Flamer
Rhino
Rhino
Total 1999 points
Basically I'd put the two big BR melta units in the Repressors, and put the Repentia and characters in the Rhinos. They would move up along with Celestine as a big nasty deathball, getting out of their vehicles as necessary to deal with stuff. Celestine and the Canoness can combine their auras to give the Repentia (and the regular BR sisters) a 4++. Once the melta units disembark, they can use their cherubs and Simulacrums to get the miracle dice train rolling for max damage. The VH stuff pretty much all sits back on objectives and blasts things with the Exorcists. My main concern is that in ITC play this list gives up easy Big Game Hunter and Headhunter, but I wanted to have some fast moving things that can help control the board a bit rather than sitting back in a gunline, hence the mechanized elements.
Well. Lot of armor to kill right? Your hope is they will shoot the Exorcists and the transports will therefore do their work. use up one Repentia unit at a time. Seems legit. Big game, Head Hunter and Butchers bill will be hard not to give up. So it will be playing from behind a little bit.
Thanks for the feedback. Agreed on giving up easy ITC secondaries, but I'm not entirely sure what to change to fix that. Maybe drop the transports entirely and just run everything up the board at the enemy? Seems like giving up a lot of mobility and survivability, but the extra points could get me more units/bodies, like maybe a unit of Mortifiers/PenEngines. Plus with Celestine the girls would be rocking a 4++ so not exactly pushovers. I'd probably switch to a VH Brigade and BR Vanguard if I went that route.
As I've said multiple times earlier, I'm trying to get feedback and insights on stuff ASAP in order to determine purchases, as I'm building my Sisters army from the ground up rather than basing it on a preexisting metal army. So I'm grateful for anything people can do to help me figure things out and find the good combos and stuff.
Well, you have got choices to make. That much armor can really play well to board control and you might easily score Recon, Engineers and one other determined by your opponents build. So it just puts pressure on you to monitor those primaries very closely every round.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Wait, the poor Imagifiers are running along behind the Rhinos, as if they missed the bus and are going to be late for work/war? I’d been presuming you would just put characters in an Immolator with a 5-girl squad or in a Rhino with 9....
If you put imagifiers inside vehicles then good bye -2 ignoring. Your vehicles will pop instantly. With imagifiers out you ignore AP of most common AT weapons. If you are inside your vehicle save will go to 5+ instantly. So basically imagiifer outside doubles your survivability.
There's no place for imagifer like outside.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SisterSydney wrote: Can we stop debating ITC now and agree to disagree? Please.....
Problem is we have only one threa that should have ITC and real 40k. The two are completely different games. Makes as much sense to have both in same as have tactics about sisters of battle and stormcast eternals together. ITC and 40k are different games.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/11 07:22:31
ZergSmasher wrote: Interesting to see you doing well with an Argent Shroud detachment. I've only really thought about combos of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose myself, but then that's because I REALLY want to run a big Repentia bomb. On that note, here's my latest list idea:
Spoiler:
Battalion: Valorous Heart
Canoness: Plasma Pistol, Power Sword, Rod of Office, Warlord (Beacon of Faith)
Celestine
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
5 Battle Sisters: No upgrades
Imagifier: Tale of the Stoic, Book of St. Lucius
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Exorcist: Missile Launcher
Battalion: Bloody Rose
Canoness: Bolt Pistol, Benificence, Heroine in the Making (Indomitable Belief)
Missionary
10 Battle Sisters: 2x Meltagun, Combimelta, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
10 Battle Sisters: 2x Meltagun, Combimelta, Simulacrum, Incensor Cherub
5 Battle Sisters: 2x Storm Bolter
Imagifier: Tale of the Warrior
8 Repentia
8 Repentia
Repentia Superior
Repressor: 2x Heavy Flamer
Repressor: 2x Heavy Flamer
Rhino
Rhino
Total 1999 points
Basically I'd put the two big BR melta units in the Repressors, and put the Repentia and characters in the Rhinos. They would move up along with Celestine as a big nasty deathball, getting out of their vehicles as necessary to deal with stuff. Celestine and the Canoness can combine their auras to give the Repentia (and the regular BR sisters) a 4++. Once the melta units disembark, they can use their cherubs and Simulacrums to get the miracle dice train rolling for max damage. The VH stuff pretty much all sits back on objectives and blasts things with the Exorcists. My main concern is that in ITC play this list gives up easy Big Game Hunter and Headhunter, but I wanted to have some fast moving things that can help control the board a bit rather than sitting back in a gunline, hence the mechanized elements.
Well. Lot of armor to kill right? Your hope is they will shoot the Exorcists and the transports will therefore do their work. use up one Repentia unit at a time. Seems legit. Big game, Head Hunter and Butchers bill will be hard not to give up. So it will be playing from behind a little bit.
Thanks for the feedback. Agreed on giving up easy ITC secondaries, but I'm not entirely sure what to change to fix that. Maybe drop the transports entirely and just run everything up the board at the enemy? Seems like giving up a lot of mobility and survivability, but the extra points could get me more units/bodies, like maybe a unit of Mortifiers/PenEngines. Plus with Celestine the girls would be rocking a 4++ so not exactly pushovers. I'd probably switch to a VH Brigade and BR Vanguard if I went that route.
As I've said multiple times earlier, I'm trying to get feedback and insights on stuff ASAP in order to determine purchases, as I'm building my Sisters army from the ground up rather than basing it on a preexisting metal army. So I'm grateful for anything people can do to help me figure things out and find the good combos and stuff.
I don't really know what do about denying secondaries either. As a Guard player I just automatically yield Big Game and Reaper, and I expect to do the same with Butcher's Bill and Big Game as Sisters. With 3 Exorcists, if I want to have any other vehicles like a Rhino or Pengine then I give up Big Game, and if I go foot horde I give up Reaper, and if I go MSU foot horde I also give up Butcher's Bill. I just sort of plan on winning on mains, and making sure to plan around maxing out three secondaries of my choice that I know I can always chose of the enemy doesn't give up something easy.
I usually have like Engineers, since cheap troop units trying to hide out of LoS are good for engineers and nobody wants to put fire into a 2+ Sisters unit that isn't shooting back. I like Recon too, because it will naturally complete if I have good board control, and good board control also transfers into scoring well on mains.
There's also a consideration between having a lot of units and thus having CP and having fewer stronger units, which protects against both the Kill More primary and all the Kill secondaries.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/11 08:51:51
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Lemondish wrote: I don't care if you can get Chinese recasts. I don't care if you can proxy. I don't care if you have them today. A unit with no available model has no place, and the competitive community has accepted that for Legends. It is inevitable that they accept it for FW's retired back catalog, should we desire to be exactly as consistent in our approach as we often wish GW to be.
MacPhail wrote: Lord Katherine, Mr. Whoop, and Jancoran, thanks for your insights on build strategies for smaller games. All ideas are welcome as I continue to tinker...
For a 1k list, I came up with Battalion + Vanguard as follows:
Spoiler:
Valorous Heart
Canoness WL (Beacon)
Canoness with BoA and Inferno
3x5 BSS w/stormbolters
Imagifier w/ Stoic
1x5 Dominions w/stormbolters
Exorcist w/ HK
Bloody Rose
Canoness Heroine (Indomitable) w/ Beneficence and Inferno
Imagifier w/ Warrior
Preacher
7x Celestians w/ 2x Melta, Combiflamer, Power Sword, Simulacrum
5x Seraphim w/ Infernos
Rhino
The tactics are simple... BR elements either deep strike or try to get a Rhino across the board, and the VH stormbolters either hug the Exo or move up with the melee Canoness to get good Dakka range.
To take it to 1500, I want to try to add enough Sisters for a second Battalion for the CP, Celestine, and a second Exorcist, which I think will fit... maybe a Penitent if I can squeeze it in. Neither list is meant to be too WAAC, thus going easy on Exorcists, but I do want to showcase the new codex. The GWGM said nobody at the store had played or played against Sisters this edition, so I may cause a bit of a scene.
I really like to have Repentia in my 1k point Vanguard and a Missionary as a VH Bat HQ. Although I'll cheat and have Becon + Litanies on my Stoic Imagifier...
Nice... The Imagifier trick is a good one and I'll use it when the time comes... probably exactly as done here. The Missionary seems like he does all the right things, but I have been enjoying the three Canoness option... I'm never sad to have an extra one of those to throw into the thickest part of the fighting. I haven't built the Arcos or Repentia from the army box yet... Zephyrim conversions first, then them. I think they'll replace retributers in my 2k list, and from the batreps I've seen they can be devastating. Thanks for the ideas!
Jancoran wrote: Well, I am sick of hearing people go on about "house rules". The ITC is as I said 40% larger than last year and was 30% larger the year before. The ETC debacle has made ITC even more ascendant for competitive play and it wouldn't shock me to see 21,000 ranked players in 2020. A stunning number.
I'm not telling anyone they need to prefer ITC missions. Opinions are cool. Its just the bitchiness I have a hard time with. Its just not necessary to endlessly bitch. Fer serious.
I'm the TO here and I include book missions sometimes for variety and it goes fine. The ITC allows for it. Ask your TO to do it. Maybe he will.
Part of the reason folks are so vehemently opposed to ITC is largely because of its poorly designed secondaries. That format further exacerbates inherent balance issues. Look at the top IH list from LVO and you'll see just how skewed it can get. It denies kill secondaries so well, forcing your opponent to seek board control opportunities instead, which are then countered by an IH castle destroying you.
It is a list tailor made for that style of event. Whereas if you look at top lists at Caledonia Uprising, you'll see a variety of units that never in a million years would be found in an ITC event because they give up easy secondaries.
In a tactics thread, ITC talk is relevant only in the context of ITC events. If a unit is being dumped on entirely and only because of its ITC impact, then I think it's fair to call that out. I suppose it's a good thing that this isn't the case here.
There are 5 other, better reasons not to consider them competitively before you get to the ITC impact.
Agreed on giving up easy ITC secondaries, but I'm not entirely sure what to change to fix that. Maybe drop the transports entirely and just run everything up the board at the enemy? Seems like giving up a lot of mobility and survivability, but the extra points could get me more units/bodies, like maybe a unit of Mortifiers/PenEngines. Plus with Celestine the girls would be rocking a 4++ so not exactly pushovers. I'd probably switch to a VH Brigade and BR Vanguard if I went that route.
~15000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Adeptus Custodes: 
~2000 | Sisters of Battle: 
~1200 | Tyranids: 