Chances are, it started off in the codex, and they were so proud of their work that they pulled it out to use in the balance update.
Because the rules writers are bad at their jobs.
tneva82 wrote: Well it's now replacing regimental traits(2 of them) so not just free bonus.
Free or not it's still a stupid rule from a design point of view. My only hope is that the opportunity cost of taking it means that hardly anyone ever does and we can all pretend it doesn't exist anymore.
tneva82 wrote: Well it's now replacing regimental traits(2 of them) so not just free bonus.
Free or not it's still a stupid rule from a design point of view. My only hope is that the opportunity cost of taking it means that hardly anyone ever does and we can all pretend it doesn't exist anymore.
It's still a hard sell to give up imo, it's a big positive boost for every unit in the book.
But returns under a different name as a regimental doctrine that takes up the place of 2 doctrines.
6s on the hit roll will still auto wound, but those also count as 6s for the wound roll, so essentially Snipers with bonuses for 6s on the wound roll will get them when Hammer of The Emperor procs.
Overall, MG feels that this will be less important as we get fewer # of attacks overall and that regimental doctrines are better.
Sorry for the dumb question but what does 6s to autowound mean? I thought 6 to wound always wounded in 9th? Does it bypass armor?
But returns under a different name as a regimental doctrine that takes up the place of 2 doctrines.
6s on the hit roll will still auto wound, but those also count as 6s for the wound roll, so essentially Snipers with bonuses for 6s on the wound roll will get them when Hammer of The Emperor procs.
Overall, MG feels that this will be less important as we get fewer # of attacks overall and that regimental doctrines are better.
Sorry for the dumb question but what does 6s to autowound mean? I thought 6 to wound always wounded in 9th? Does it bypass armor?
I believe it's actually if you roll a 6 to hit then you auto-wound. So pretty nasty considering how many shots are flying about....
One should note that the higher average cost of "new" IG as well as LR Punisher no longer having 40shots indirectly reduces the absurd power of that ability.
Still not really one i like design wise ( just remember: its better than "hit roll of 6 change weapon Profile to S99"). It just breaks the immersion quite hard as there is just no connection to the lore/fluff
I'm disappointed that this terrible anti-immersive autowound rule remains. I'm glad that I have option to trade it for something else, though I suspect most trait combos won't actually be worth the trade and a lot of people will simply use the autowound rule. Also, does it stack with Cadian double hit rule, so that sixes to hit on Cadian lasguns cause two autowounds?
Crimson wrote: I'm disappointed that this terrible anti-immersive autowound rule remains. I'm glad that I have option to trade it for something else, though I suspect most trait combos won't actually be worth the trade and a lot of people will simply use the autowound rule. Also, does it stack with Cadian double hit rule, so that sixes to hit on Cadian lasguns cause two autowounds?
Exploding sixes does not activate any other rule, I'm quite sure it is in the main rulebook. So you would get two hits, but only one auto-wound
If GL costs same as MG or PG it needs to be assault 2 minimum. Just can’t compete otherwise. The whole point of things like the M40 was rapid deployment of grenades, much faster than throwing them.
Mr_Rose wrote: If GL costs same as MG or PG it needs to be assault 2 minimum. Just can’t compete otherwise. The whole point of things like the M40 was rapid deployment of grenades, much faster than throwing them.
This solution has been sitting in front of GW for over a decade, and they simply refuse to adopt it. It's odd that flamers and meltaguns have gotten upward tweaks, while the humble grenade launcher has the same stats in had in 1998.
Haighus wrote: Any pretence of effort in writing rules is out of the window.
Yeah, because pretending flamers costing 1 point less than melta somehow matters, eh?
I honestly don't mind upgrades being free on throwaway cheap units where it doesn't change much, at least this removes the most annoying factor in list building (namely, where I spend 1 more/less point to 'optimize' list), and encourages experimentation (this might be a shock to 'glue badly looking 3d printed bit spam of whatever is 0.0001% more "efficient" and forget other weapons exist to WAAAC harder' brigade but both casual and fluffy players like to vary lists and try different loadouts) now that it takes little effort.
That is not to say upgrades should be free on everything, but if there is one place where it might work, it's special weapons of small squads, as their roles aren't as diverse as say heavy weapons and the change of output is negligible enough to not worry about a few points.
Because now that they cost the same as other specials, changing your list takes zero time and fuss (and no psychological barrier of 'I am wasting x points now that my squad is cheaper') and you might take them against a list where they are worthwhile sidegrade?
Let's not pretend anyone took them when they were a handful of point less than alternatives. Sure, writers could go alternative route of buffing the GL until it's as strong as meltagun but I dunno how you would do that without largely copying stats of a melta making the choice even less meaningful.
Trying to argue that people weren't taking GL because they were only a little cheaper than a PG/melta but they will now because they cost the same, is a bold strategy Cotton. Let's see how it pays off.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Apparently all the special weapon upgrades (including the Kasrkin Sniper Rifle) in Kasrkin and Scion units are free.
Unbelievable...
Any pretence of effort in writing rules is out of the window.
balance is overrated anyways.
Also looks like the PL-ification is progressing, something many people claimed didn't happen and isn't happening.
Oh it's happening, except when it isn't
The 40k rules team really needs a strong leader and a clear vision. I mean if they want to go to Power Levels and No Model No Rules then someone needs to be there to stick to it. Instead we get bizarre things like a new codex with rules for armies that were made in 1994 and have been OOP since around 2010...
Mr_Rose wrote: If GL costs same as MG or PG it needs to be assault 2 minimum. Just can’t compete otherwise. The whole point of things like the M40 was rapid deployment of grenades, much faster than throwing them.
This solution has been sitting in front of GW for over a decade, and they simply refuse to adopt it. It's odd that flamers and meltaguns have gotten upward tweaks, while the humble grenade launcher has the same stats in had in 1998.
What about offering indirect fire? It seems it would give the GL a unique niche other than 'the gun that ain't good at anything'.
Let's not pretend anyone took them when they were a handful of point less than alternatives. Sure, writers could go alternative route of buffing the GL until it's as strong as meltagun but I dunno how you would do that without largely copying stats of a melta making the choice even less meaningful.
Add pinning rules? Make it 30 inch range? enemies hit by it can't overwatch?
Kid_Kyoto wrote: What about offering indirect fire? It seems it would give the GL a unique niche other than 'the gun that ain't good at anything'.
that's the other thing I've played with, but in my head canon, the GL is the sort of "default" weapon a guard squad would have, and I'd rather give it more raw power than a more defined niche.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: What about offering indirect fire? It seems it would give the GL a unique niche other than 'the gun that ain't good at anything'.
that's the other thing I've played with, but in my head canon, the GL is the sort of "default" weapon a guard squad would have, and I'd rather give it more raw power than a more defined niche.
I get the logic but one thing to keep in mind it that none of our tabletop armies are supposed to be the average. By definition any Marine or Eldar force is already super elite, so presumably any IG forces we put on the table are not minor garrisons or random patrols but are already the A-Team, the Howling Commandos, Easy Company, Green Berets etc.
So a GL or a flamer may well be the default weapon galaxy wide, but for Col Fury's hand-chosen elite force about to go into battle with the endless daemon hoards coming out of the rift... every last mother's son is going to get a plasma gun.
Because now that they cost the same as other specials, changing your list takes zero time and fuss (and no psychological barrier of 'I am wasting x points now that my squad is cheaper') and you might take them against a list where they are worthwhile sidegrade?
I wonder if you have ever responded to anybody without at least a touch of snark? You should try it sometime!
You were doing pretty well here until the rolling eyes emoji!
Kid_Kyoto wrote: What about offering indirect fire? It seems it would give the GL a unique niche other than 'the gun that ain't good at anything'.
that's the other thing I've played with, but in my head canon, the GL is the sort of "default" weapon a guard squad would have, and I'd rather give it more raw power than a more defined niche.
The problem with that logic is that it's just launching grenades. Sticking them in the launcher would just increase range, not power. So a utility niche is where you have to start looking.
Personally I wouldn't be too upset about the auto-wound rule. This book will be outdated in less than a month, and will be trash bin material in five months when 10th comes out and resets the entire game...again.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: What about offering indirect fire? It seems it would give the GL a unique niche other than 'the gun that ain't good at anything'.
that's the other thing I've played with, but in my head canon, the GL is the sort of "default" weapon a guard squad would have, and I'd rather give it more raw power than a more defined niche.
The problem with that logic is that it's just launching grenades. Sticking them in the launcher would just increase range, not power. So a utility niche is where you have to start looking.
Assault 2 is an easy way to square that circle. Fires the same grenades, but faster. Basically every Guard grenade launcher except the Krieg one looks like a semi-auto model anyway.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: What about offering indirect fire? It seems it would give the GL a unique niche other than 'the gun that ain't good at anything'.
that's the other thing I've played with, but in my head canon, the GL is the sort of "default" weapon a guard squad would have, and I'd rather give it more raw power than a more defined niche.
The problem with that logic is that it's just launching grenades. Sticking them in the launcher would just increase range, not power. So a utility niche is where you have to start looking.
Assault 2 is an easy way to square that circle. Fires the same grenades, but faster. Basically every Guard grenade launcher except the Krieg one looks like a semi-auto model anyway.
I think firing twice would invaldate the flamer completely.
Lol, isn't that model from the Catachan Command Squad? I did not see a destinct Catachan Command Squad in the Test Codex listing, so should the set not be discontinoued? Not that I'd want that, it's the only good source for Catachan minis from GW these days.
Again though, lol at that DKoK special rule. How many times have I had a squad wiped and thought, if only that 1 or 2 to wound would have been ignored, it must have been somewhere in the range of never and I don't think so.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: What about offering indirect fire? It seems it would give the GL a unique niche other than 'the gun that ain't good at anything'.
that's the other thing I've played with, but in my head canon, the GL is the sort of "default" weapon a guard squad would have, and I'd rather give it more raw power than a more defined niche.
The problem with that logic is that it's just launching grenades. Sticking them in the launcher would just increase range, not power. So a utility niche is where you have to start looking.
Assault 2 is an easy way to square that circle. Fires the same grenades, but faster. Basically every Guard grenade launcher except the Krieg one looks like a semi-auto model anyway.
Assault 2/2d6 would be a nice change that makes sense (for non-DKoK style launchers anyway). GLs are very multipurpose in today's day and age, launching everything from smoke, CS (non-military), flares, and even small drones. Giving it buffs to cover (smoke, dense cover), charge defense (flashbang/CS), and/or visibility (flare if night fight ever comes back, drones for arty spotting) would all be useful. They can even trigger off of stratagems like other factions if you'd like (though I'm not a huge fan of that).
Additionally, an under barrel GL options would be cool. Assault 1/d6 that fires in addition to the lasgun. Maybe give it some of the above perks to keep it useful, or just make it a separate option altogether like a vox/med-kit so it's not taking a special weapon slot.
Well they could give the GL the DoW treatment: If an Infantry unit gets hit, reduce the move charactaristic of that Unit by X until your next shooting phase. Where X is a reasonable number. Or alternatively, that the BS is reduced by 1. It's a hard sell though, opponent players would flip.
Lol, isn't that model from the Catachan Command Squad? I did not see a destinct Catachan Command Squad in the Test Codex listing, so should the set not be discontinoued? Not that I'd want that, it's the only good source for Catachan minis from GW these days.
Again though, lol at that DKoK special rule. How many times have I had a squad wiped and thought, if only that 1 or 2 to wound would have been ignored, it must have been somewhere in the range of never and I don't think so.
I mean at toughness 3 and all the reroll wound rolls stuff out there or +1 wound stuff it’s much better then the character or vehicle atk on death nonsense from before. I do hope there is something more though for the higher toughness units such as vehicles, artillery and deathriders…
But infantry engineers and deathriders are the meat of dkok lists anyway. Anything that helps me hold my objectives longer is great… I also love the 1cp fire on my position strat for dkok. Not as cool as the catachan maxed out set traps ability though.
Togusa wrote: Personally I wouldn't be too upset about the auto-wound rule. This book will be outdated in less than a month, and will be trash bin material in five months when 10th comes out and resets the entire game...again.
Like 9e made 8e books useless? What daemons played until short time then? What are ig playing atm?
Togusa wrote: Personally I wouldn't be too upset about the auto-wound rule. This book will be outdated in less than a month, and will be trash bin material in five months when 10th comes out and resets the entire game...again.
Like 9e made 8e books useless? What daemons played until short time then? What are ig playing atm?
No more like 7th, when overnight every codex was replaced by an Index, at least that is the rumor so far.
GW wrote:Perhaps our favourite change is to the biggest box of boom in the Astra Militarum arsenal – the Deathstrike missile launcher. This formidable artillery piece is getting a major overhaul. Random chance is out, mind games are in.
> Random chance is out
> Does literally nothing if you roll a 1
> Random chance is out
> Does literally nothing if you roll a 1
Does nothing to _one_ of the targets on a 1. It can still hit anything else in the radius.
Still less random than regular weapons where rolling a 1 on the hit or on the wound can end the attack. Plus deathstrikes have a secondary benefit as they can force enemy units off an objective before they even fire.
EviscerationPlague wrote: That's incredibly varying for Mortal Wound output too. You have a 1/6 chance to do nothing, and that jumps straight to 8-16 mortal wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also WHAT mind games are there for this weapon?
You pick a target point and if the enemy moves away from that so nothing is within 3", the Deathstrike can pick another target that goes off next turn.
So to start with you're picking an objective you want to claim next turn, and either the enemy takes it and gets nuked, or stays away and you claim the objective before pointing the nuke at your next turn's objective.
Objectives are a 40mm base + 3" circle, so if you aim at the center of the objective there's 40mm around the edges an enemy unit can claim it while being safe from the blast.
Rihgu wrote: Objectives are a 40mm base + 3" circle, so if you aim at the center of the objective there's 40mm around the edges an enemy unit can claim it while being safe from the blast.
This mixing of metric and imperial irritates me even more than the rules do.
Rihgu wrote: Objectives are a 40mm base + 3" circle, so if you aim at the center of the objective there's 40mm around the edges an enemy unit can claim it while being safe from the blast.
I thought objectives were from the center. The size of the marker was irrelevant.
Rihgu wrote: Objectives are a 40mm base + 3" circle, so if you aim at the center of the objective there's 40mm around the edges an enemy unit can claim it while being safe from the blast.
This mixing of metric and imperial irritates me even more than the rules do.
Pick one!
I can't just convert 40mm to inches off the top of my head! Uhhh an objective zone is 4.5748" so there's 1.5748" around the outside of the blast zone an enemy unit can safely claim!
I thought objectives were from the center. The size of the marker was irrelevant.
I thought so to. In a sane world, they would be, but these aren't sane rules.
OBJECTIVE MARKERS
Many missions use objective markers – these represent sites of tactical or strategic import that both sides are attempting to secure. If a battle has any objective markers, then the mission will say where they are located on the battlefield. These can be represented using any suitable marker, but we recommend using round markers that are 40mm in diameter.
When setting objective markers up on the battlefield, always place them so they are centred on the point specified by the mission. When measuring distances to and from objective markers, always measure to and from the closest part of that objective marker.
A model is in range of an objective marker if it is within 3" horizontally and 5" vertically of that objective marker.
Rihgu wrote: Objectives are a 40mm base + 3" circle, so if you aim at the center of the objective there's 40mm around the edges an enemy unit can claim it while being safe from the blast.
While true, in practice that might be quite limited. Often there will be terrain near the objective marker that prevents models being placed all around it, and limits where units like vehicles or artillery can claim it.
Also FWIW the other two versions of the deathstrike can cover an entire objective marker at the cost of doing fewer mortals:
Godspear Roll 1d6 for each unit within 3" of the target marker. On a 1 nothing. On a 2-3 the unit suffers 8 mortal wounds, on a 4-5 it suffers 12 mortal wounds, on a 6 it suffers 16 mortal wounds.
Plasma Barrage Roll 1d6 for each unit within d3+6" of the target marker. On a 1 nothing. On a 2-3 the unit suffers d3+1 mortal wounds, on a 4-5 it suffers 2d3 mortal wounds, on a 6 it suffers d3+3 mortal wounds. -1 for enemy infantry characters.
Vortex Roll 1d6 for each unit within d3+3"of the target marke. On a 1 nothing. On a 2-3 the unit suffers d3 mortal wounds, on a 4-5 it suffers d3+1 mortal wounds, on a 6 it suffers 2d3 mortal wounds.
Once resolved roll 1 d6. on a 1-3 remove the target marker. on a 4+ do not remove marker but it cant be moved again using the align target action.
I didn't really follow up where it originated. But I do recall that one of the rumor sources on Reddit claimed that IG and WE would only have a lifetime of 6 months.
I don't like the idea that each box of models gets a datasheet and you can only take the wargear in the box, seems very limiting. Hope that's not the case. Hope the Imperial Armour datasheets for DKOK don't legended yet. Hope their's some good artwork in the codex at least, whenever I get to buy it, without buying a lot of models I don't want.
On the positive side, those artillery peices are cool and i'll have fun making my own versions; reckon there's a typo with that rocket launcher thing, should shoot out of LOS, the other gun got it's special rule instead. Lol @ heavy lascannon
You'd probably be better off putting it just over the objective, putting a 6" bubble that the enemy needs to move around, forcing them to advance if they want to take it.
Or chucking it at heavy units so they are forced to move and fire.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Doubling down on the "Aspect Warrior" Guard squads.
Calling it now, in the 10th edition codex each aspect regiment gets a phoenix lord legendary general with an improved version of the rules. Catachans get S6 and a heavy flamer, Krieg can only be wounded on unmodified 6s, Cadian has a Heavy 10 lasgun that auto-wounds on a 3+ to hit if you didn't move.
On the positive side, those artillery peices are cool and i'll have fun making my own versions; reckon there's a typo with that rocket launcher thing, should shoot out of LOS, the other gun got it's special rule instead. Lol @ heavy lascannon
It does seem very odd, the nebelwerfer really should indirect, and the infantry gun doesn't look like a small howitzer but an anti-tank gun which should be direct fire.
Rihgu wrote: Objectives are a 40mm base + 3" circle, so if you aim at the center of the objective there's 40mm around the edges an enemy unit can claim it while being safe from the blast.
This mixing of metric and imperial irritates me even more than the rules do.
Pick one!
I can't just convert 40mm to inches off the top of my head! Uhhh an objective zone is 4.5748" so there's 1.5748" around the outside of the blast zone an enemy unit can safely claim!
I thought objectives were from the center. The size of the marker was irrelevant.
I thought so to. In a sane world, they would be, but these aren't sane rules.
Eh, a standard size for an objective marker isn't a bad thing, and I'd actually argue from the base itself makes the most sense, but that's not a hill I NEED to die on
You pick a target point and if the enemy moves away from that so nothing is within 3", the Deathstrike can pick another target that goes off next turn.
I imagine they'll be like most "Devastator" units, inconsistently immune to NM/NR because reasons.
Of course the beauty of the old kit - that being that the heavy weapons themselves were crew agnostic - will probably be a thing of the past with the new jig-saw puzzle sprues that GW does these days.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I imagine they'll be like most "Devastator" units, inconsistently immune to NM/NR because reasons.
Of course the beauty of the old kit - that being that the heavy weapons themselves were crew agnostic - will probably be a thing of the past with the new jig-saw puzzle sprues that GW does these days.
Agreed, and I’m sad for it. We’ll know soon, but it would be great if Heavy Weapons, Sentinels and Weapon Batteries each had the “Cadian” bits on a separate sprue, to make it easier to gauge if other regiments are coming.
Togusa wrote: Personally I wouldn't be too upset about the auto-wound rule. This book will be outdated in less than a month, and will be trash bin material in five months when 10th comes out and resets the entire game...again.
Like 9e made 8e books useless? What daemons played until short time then? What are ig playing atm?
No more like 7th, when overnight every codex was replaced by an Index, at least that is the rumor so far.
That's speculated a lot but nothing concrete rumours yet so claiming it's so is just stupid.
I can make lots of claim. Doesn't make it so though.
"10th will kill off primaris!"
I bet there will be primaris marines around.
GW hasn't historically done full resets all that often so odds are better it will be more like GW's usual old codexes work more-or-less edition change.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Rihgu wrote: I thought so to. In a sane world, they would be, but these aren't sane rules.
Then for added fun GW sells objective markers on 50mm bases
Undead_Love-Machine wrote:If the special weapons are all free why would anybody use grenade launchers?
No one will take them just like no one took them before because those few points just don't matter. The main expense is the squad and the grenade launcher just doesn't add anything to it. You either just want bodies, which is where you take nothing or you want to achieve a task. And then you take a weapon that fits that task. The grenade launcher just doesn't have a hint of a real role and hasn't had one for ages. You could make them one point and plasma and melta 30 and you still wouldn't see them taken except maybe if someone had a few barebones squads and 2 points left over somewhere.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote:If the special weapons are all free why would anybody use grenade launchers?
No one will take them just like no one took them before because those few points just don't matter. The main expense is the squad and the grenade launcher just doesn't add anything to it. You either just want bodies, which is where you take nothing or you want to achieve a task. And then you take a weapon that fits that task. The grenade launcher just doesn't have a hint of a real role and hasn't had one for ages. You could make them one point and plasma and melta 30 and you still wouldn't see them taken except maybe if someone had a few barebones squads and 2 points left over somewhere.
At that points cost, you would have to take 50 grenade launchers to replace one squad. I think people would take 1pt grenade launchers.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I remain shocked there isn't also a Catachan squad coming after all the new characters they've done for them.
Guess for 10th?
Seems like a pretty solid future Kill Team release. Perhaps that Catachans vs Nids rumour materialises in the next KT season, and gets released closer to the next Nids update.
The Krieg rule says "an unmodified roll of 1-2 for that attack fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making the attack may have" does that mean no rerolls to wound on a 1?
Miguelsan wrote: The Krieg rule says "an unmodified roll of 1-2 for that attack fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making the attack may have" does that mean no rerolls to wound on a 1?
M.
No. It just expands your usual 1 always fail. If it did there could be no reroll 1's because 1 always fails as per core rules.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I remain shocked there isn't also a Catachan squad coming after all the new characters they've done for them.
Guess for 10th?
Wild prediction- 10th launch box is Catachans vs Exodites.
There's always marines in one and GW won't put imperium vs imperium so...No.
It wasn't a serious suggestion
Could happen for an army/campaign box or kill team set. Would never happen for the edition starter.
Almost certainly we’ll see Catachan models for Kill Team, hopefully with enough bits to make a Command Squad. Although the existing Command Squad is still fine.
Miguelsan wrote: The Krieg rule says "an unmodified roll of 1-2 for that attack fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making the attack may have" does that mean no rerolls to wound on a 1?
M.
Maybe we can ask GW and they rule it the other way but currently it’s ruled as rerolls allowed…. However all those poison, 2+ Auto wound or +1 wound rolls won’t work… still reroll 1 to wound is dumb that it still works
Undead_Love-Machine wrote:If the special weapons are all free why would anybody use grenade launchers?
No one will take them just like no one took them before because those few points just don't matter. The main expense is the squad and the grenade launcher just doesn't add anything to it. You either just want bodies, which is where you take nothing or you want to achieve a task. And then you take a weapon that fits that task. The grenade launcher just doesn't have a hint of a real role and hasn't had one for ages. You could make them one point and plasma and melta 30 and you still wouldn't see them taken except maybe if someone had a few barebones squads and 2 points left over somewhere.
At that points cost, you would have to take 50 grenade launchers to replace one squad. I think people would take 1pt grenade launchers.
The thing is, you still need a squad to carry them. And that's the main expense. It would also be weird (albeit fitting for the Guard) if some weapons cost more than the whole unit. A Grenade launcher squad would basically be 51 points while a barebones one would be 50. Few people would even pay that one point because it can also be used for other things. So you'd only take it if other weapons were either overpriced or not accessible. After all, if you're after damage a plasma gun will always be better than a grenade launcher unless you give it some kind of special niche.
But I think that that's a general issue with GW rules. There are so many units and options that basically are another option+1 or the like. So there will always be an optimal choice there and points can't make up for that.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote:If the special weapons are all free why would anybody use grenade launchers?
No one will take them just like no one took them before because those few points just don't matter. The main expense is the squad and the grenade launcher just doesn't add anything to it. You either just want bodies, which is where you take nothing or you want to achieve a task. And then you take a weapon that fits that task. The grenade launcher just doesn't have a hint of a real role and hasn't had one for ages. You could make them one point and plasma and melta 30 and you still wouldn't see them taken except maybe if someone had a few barebones squads and 2 points left over somewhere.
You take grenade launchers when they are free and you have run out of models with any other special weapon.
In 8th plasma was pretty much universally better than melta, in 9th that changed. In theory the same could happen to grenade launchers and they get rebalanced at some point, but as no one uses them anyway and they are not widely available outside guard, it is not a priority.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote:If the special weapons are all free why would anybody use grenade launchers?
No one will take them just like no one took them before because those few points just don't matter. The main expense is the squad and the grenade launcher just doesn't add anything to it. You either just want bodies, which is where you take nothing or you want to achieve a task. And then you take a weapon that fits that task. The grenade launcher just doesn't have a hint of a real role and hasn't had one for ages. You could make them one point and plasma and melta 30 and you still wouldn't see them taken except maybe if someone had a few barebones squads and 2 points left over somewhere.
You take grenade launchers when they are free and you have run out of models with any other special weapon.
In 8th plasma was pretty much universally better than melta, in 9th that changed. In theory the same could happen to grenade launchers and they get rebalanced at some point, but as no one uses them anyway and they are not widely available outside guard, it is not a priority.
Indeed. And if Grenade Launchers somehow get good, chances are that the other special weapons fall by the wayside again.
The Deathstrike really doesn't seem to belong in normal games, it'd make more sense as a bonus-VP-if-launched than as a weapon.
Agreed. I think it has the same issue as Fliers in that, whilst it stands to reason that they would exist, the model just doesn't belong on the table.
It would make more sense if a Master of Ordnance could call in an airstrike or Deathstrike shot (either using CP or as a 1/game ability, like the Chapter Master's old Orbital Bombardment ability). However, you really shouldn't need the bomber or Deathstrike-launcher actually on the table. It should just be assumed that the fliers are in the area and pass over for a bombing run, or that the Deathstrike launcher is within range.
As it stands, the Deathstrike is the equivalent of the Nazis wheeling the V2 rocket all the way through France, across the channel, and into central London so they could fire it at... central London.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote:If the special weapons are all free why would anybody use grenade launchers?
No one will take them just like no one took them before because those few points just don't matter. The main expense is the squad and the grenade launcher just doesn't add anything to it. You either just want bodies, which is where you take nothing or you want to achieve a task. And then you take a weapon that fits that task. The grenade launcher just doesn't have a hint of a real role and hasn't had one for ages. You could make them one point and plasma and melta 30 and you still wouldn't see them taken except maybe if someone had a few barebones squads and 2 points left over somewhere.
You take grenade launchers when they are free and you have run out of models with any other special weapon.
In 8th plasma was pretty much universally better than melta, in 9th that changed. In theory the same could happen to grenade launchers and they get rebalanced at some point, but as no one uses them anyway and they are not widely available outside guard, it is not a priority.
Hence why GW needs to start looking at utility uses for those lower end weapons. If you gave them interesting effects, they'd get used.
That would require GW to actually attempt to write slightly deeper core rules though.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote:If the special weapons are all free why would anybody use grenade launchers?
No one will take them just like no one took them before because those few points just don't matter. The main expense is the squad and the grenade launcher just doesn't add anything to it. You either just want bodies, which is where you take nothing or you want to achieve a task. And then you take a weapon that fits that task. The grenade launcher just doesn't have a hint of a real role and hasn't had one for ages. You could make them one point and plasma and melta 30 and you still wouldn't see them taken except maybe if someone had a few barebones squads and 2 points left over somewhere.
You take grenade launchers when they are free and you have run out of models with any other special weapon.
In 8th plasma was pretty much universally better than melta, in 9th that changed. In theory the same could happen to grenade launchers and they get rebalanced at some point, but as no one uses them anyway and they are not widely available outside guard, it is not a priority.
Grenade launchers need a niche, every other special weapon has a niche. Plasma is elite, melta for tanks, sniper for characters, flamers for clearing groups. I think in order to have a reason to exist grenade launchers need something special. Maybe a smoke/flash grenade profile, or they can ignore LOS. Better yet have it cause some sort of "pinning" type of effect. As it stands they are terrible all around, at least back in the day they were cheap.
Kanluwen wrote:Can you lot take the grenade launcher talk elsewhere? Go start a thread in Proposed Rules or whatever.
If you'd like I can change the title of this thread to "Astra Militarum Rumors and Grenade Launcher hate Fest" so it's clearer.
vipoid wrote:
The Deathstrike really doesn't seem to belong in normal games, it'd make more sense as a bonus-VP-if-launched than as a weapon.
That would just be too logical.
Maybe make it a help your friend weapon? If launched you can target another table in the same gaming shop (or same county) and it has effects on that game?
Grenade launchers need a niche, every other special weapon has a niche.
Their niche is - supposedly - that they can dip into every niche and perform just fine. Not as well as the dedicated special weapon of that niche, but they make up for that with versatility so you are never caught flat-footed when facing the wrong opponent. Good for a unit (like an objective camper) that can face a variety of enemy unit types.
The Deathstrike really doesn't seem to belong in normal games, it'd make more sense as a bonus-VP-if-launched than as a weapon.
That would just be too logical.
Maybe make it a help your friend weapon? If launched you can target another table in the same gaming shop (or same county) and it has effects on that game?
I recall hearing stories of Guard players launching Deathstrikes at tables in other stores (including one between the UK and US) back in 5e since Deathstrikes had "Range: Unlimited" in the 'dex. It sounded like an absolute riot, but the coordination might be a problem ,and I can't imagine other players would enjoy having to worry about an ICBM sniping their Daemon Prince when they're not even playing against an Imperium army (though international carpet-nuking would be a fething amazing way to troll a major tournament...).
The Deathstrike really doesn't seem to belong in normal games, it'd make more sense as a bonus-VP-if-launched than as a weapon.
That would just be too logical.
Maybe make it a help your friend weapon? If launched you can target another table in the same gaming shop (or same county) and it has effects on that game?
I recall hearing stories of Guard players launching Deathstrikes at tables in other stores (including one between the UK and US) back in 5e since Deathstrikes had "Range: Unlimited" in the 'dex. It sounded like an absolute riot, but the coordination might be a problem (and I can't imagine other players would enjoy having to worry about an ICBM sniping their Daemon Prince when they're not even playing against an Imperium army...)
IIRC, GW stores would coordinate that themselves for the Tanksgiving events.
I've been thinking an interesting fix for Deathstrikes is to make them target reserves- make the launcher automatically go off on turn 3 (if alive), and roll a D6 for every unit the opponent has in reserve- on a 2+ the unit dies or something along those lines. Forces the opponent to limit their strategic options or focus fire early on an otherwise useless unit.
Maybe let them score VPs if the opponent has no reserves when they instead target rear areas.
generalchaos34 wrote: Grenade launchers need a niche, every other special weapon has a niche. Plasma is elite, melta for tanks, sniper for characters, flamers for clearing groups. I think in order to have a reason to exist grenade launchers need something special. Maybe a smoke/flash grenade profile, or they can ignore LOS. Better yet have it cause some sort of "pinning" type of effect. As it stands they are terrible all around, at least back in the day they were cheap.
Exactly, that was the GL "niche." It can do either elite or swarm, but poorly.
Kanluwen wrote:Can you lot take the grenade launcher talk elsewhere? Go start a thread in Proposed Rules or whatever.
If you'd like I can change the title of this thread to "Astra Militarum Rumors and Grenade Launcher hate Fest" so it's clearer.
COOL DEAL!
Okay, since off-topic wishlisting(because that's what is really happening) for the next book is apparently a-okay for rumors on the book going up for preorder on Saturday:
Break things into "Specialist" and "Special" Weapons.
Specialist Weapons would be things like Sniper Rifles, Meltaguns, Demolition Charges, Heavy Flamers, and Plasma Guns. Things that ostensibly get a bit of extra training for the operators or have a bit more value overall. Specialist Weapons in a standard Infantry Squad could be put onto two models instead of a Heavy Weapon Team and would feature something additional to make the usage of said item more interesting or unique, but only when taken in pairs.
IE:
Taking Sniper Rifles would grant your Infantry Squad the "Forward Observer" keyword, letting artillery get a single reroll for a turn if the target is visible to the Infantry Squad without having to burn a stratagem to do so.
Demolition Charges would let you remove Objective Markers from play, if a specific action is performed and completed.
Meltaguns taken in tandem would grant Krak Grenades to the Infantry Squad and let them count as being 6 models for the purposes of resolving Blast Weapons fired at them by Vehicles or Monsters.
Plasma Guns give the squad a medic.
Heavy Flamers would let you treat their targets as being affected by Blast weapons for the purposes of numbers of models in the unit.
Special Weapons would be two to a squad, any combinations you want. Flamers, Boltguns, and Grenade Launchers.
There is an argument able to be made in any regards for opening up two different types of Grenade Launchers as options. I don't know exactly how I would treat it myself, but doing the drum-fed variant as a Specialist Weapon while the M79 style breach-action is a Special Weapon wouldn't be wildly outlandish.
And then, for giggles and gaks, make it so the Regimental units get to pick certain Specialist Weapons as Special choices as well as Specialist ones. Give Sergeants access to Specials, Specialist, and their usual fare of weapons.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Hence why GW needs to start looking at utility uses for those lower end weapons. If you gave them interesting effects, they'd get used.
And giving weapons points values so that you don't just automatically take the best of everything because it's free.
EviscerationPlague wrote: Hence why GW needs to start looking at utility uses for those lower end weapons. If you gave them interesting effects, they'd get used.
And giving weapons points values so that you don't just automatically take the best of everything because it's free.
They are such morons...
To be fair they've demonstrably shown for many editions the tiny points range they allow for special weapons costs isn't enough given the profiles they have. There isn't a big enough variance for "don't take the best", you could have 10pt plasma/melta and flamer/gl be free and I dare say people would still be 100% paid upgrades or 0%.
Dudeface wrote: To be fair they've demonstrably shown for many editions the tiny points range they allow for special weapons costs isn't enough given the profiles they have. There isn't a big enough variance for "don't take the best", you could have 10pt plasma/melta and flamer/gl be free and I dare say people would still be 100% paid upgrades or 0%.
So let's all give up and go home?
This isn't a binary issue. Points, as I've been saying for years, are not the great leveller. You cannot make Grenade Launchers good just by making them cheap (or free) or by artificially boosting the costs of Meltas and Plasmas. But these are two separate issues:
1. Upgrades should cost points that are commensurate with their utility/power. 2. Grenade Launchers don't have any utility, and this should be addressed.
Fixing one doesn't fix the other. Both must be resolved. I'd even go so far as to say that the Missile Launcher is in a similar boat for the Guard.
Kanluwen wrote: We're still pretending that people outside of fluffbunnies took some of these choices? Coolcoolcool
Still pretending that points don't matter? This ain't Who's Line, Kan.
I miss grenades. I'd probably miss even with a grenade. There used to be lots of different grenades. Launchers for them were good, they just extended the range you could throw grenades. Grenades.
Does anybody know, does the review embargo for the new codex lift on the pre-order date (tomorrow my time) or a week from now, following the first week of pre-orders?
diepotato47 wrote: Does anybody know, does the review embargo for the new codex lift on the pre-order date (tomorrow my time) or a week from now, following the first week of pre-orders?
Egh even if it was the only free wpn the grenade launcher isn’t auto include… there is so much that improves lasguns you may just want a lasgun instead.. like a Cadian shock troop with frfsrf in rapid range.
gungo wrote: Egh even if it was the only free wpn the grenade launcher isn’t auto include… there is so much that improves lasguns you may just want a lasgun instead.. like a Cadian shock troop with frfsrf in rapid range.
That was true in the past, but FRFSRF now makes laguns heavy 3, and a frag grenade does 3.5 lasgun equivalent shots on average (with blast upping that potential).
gungo wrote: Egh even if it was the only free wpn the grenade launcher isn’t auto include… there is so much that improves lasguns you may just want a lasgun instead.. like a Cadian shock troop with frfsrf in rapid range.
That was true in the past, but FRFSRF now makes laguns heavy 3, and a frag grenade does 3.5 lasgun equivalent shots on average (with blast upping that potential).
FRFSRF is still better on shock troops unless maximum blast is in effect due to the bonus hits on las weapons. Should average at 2 hits per las weapon vs 1.75 per frag. If you're going down the volume of fire path for the new version of hammer of the emperor it's relevant I guess.
You can still only throw one grenade, right? So why not just make the grenade launcher a squad ability that allows you to throw a grenade at 24"? The grenade launcher model would just an reminder to show that the squad does have that ability. Sort of like how Orks are all meant to have grenades, but you don't have the bits to give everyone a nade.
As it's just an ability it doesn't take up any special weapon slots.
gungo wrote: Egh even if it was the only free wpn the grenade launcher isn’t auto include… there is so much that improves lasguns you may just want a lasgun instead.. like a Cadian shock troop with frfsrf in rapid range.
That was true in the past, but FRFSRF now makes laguns heavy 3,
Huh. How does 'First Rank' interact with the parade drill regimental doctrine that sets 'remains stationary' lasguns to heavy 2?
Does this codex have built in anti-synergy, or is it a list of terms, conditions and exceptions?
gungo wrote: Egh even if it was the only free wpn the grenade launcher isn’t auto include… there is so much that improves lasguns you may just want a lasgun instead.. like a Cadian shock troop with frfsrf in rapid range.
That was true in the past, but FRFSRF now makes laguns heavy 3, and a frag grenade does 3.5 lasgun equivalent shots on average (with blast upping that potential).
FRFSRF is still better on shock troops unless maximum blast is in effect due to the bonus hits on las weapons. Should average at 2 hits per las weapon vs 1.75 per frag. If you're going down the volume of fire path for the new version of hammer of the emperor it's relevant I guess.
Do you have to remain stationary to get that benefit with FRFSRF? Grenade launchers at least retain mobility.
gungo wrote: Egh even if it was the only free wpn the grenade launcher isn’t auto include… there is so much that improves lasguns you may just want a lasgun instead.. like a Cadian shock troop with frfsrf in rapid range.
That was true in the past, but FRFSRF now makes laguns heavy 3,
Huh. How does 'First Rank' interact with the parade drill regimental doctrine that sets 'remains stationary' lasguns to heavy 2?
Does this codex have built in anti-synergy, or is it a list of terms, conditions and exceptions?
I was thinking parade drill should make FRFSRF heavy 4, but it appears that parade drill is largely superceded by the order.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Make grenade launchers in addition to special weapons, zero cost and allowed 1x in each squad.
You then have the choice between a grenade launcher and a lasgun, but not a grenade launcher and a plasma, melta etc.
Mandated or allowed? You're back to "that's not really a choice" territory.
H.B.M.C. is 100% correct that the weapon is lacking and point need adjusting in conjunction.
?
I'm not mandating anything, it would be an option. You could still take your plasma, flamer, melta etc (or multiple if the squad allows) you can then in addition choose to upgrade a squad member to have a grenade launcher. If you want to keep your lasgun, then you are all good.
gungo wrote: Egh even if it was the only free wpn the grenade launcher isn’t auto include… there is so much that improves lasguns you may just want a lasgun instead.. like a Cadian shock troop with frfsrf in rapid range.
That was true in the past, but FRFSRF now makes laguns heavy 3, and a frag grenade does 3.5 lasgun equivalent shots on average (with blast upping that potential).
FRFSRF is still better on shock troops unless maximum blast is in effect due to the bonus hits on las weapons. Should average at 2 hits per las weapon vs 1.75 per frag. If you're going down the volume of fire path for the new version of hammer of the emperor it's relevant I guess.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Make grenade launchers in addition to special weapons, zero cost and allowed 1x in each squad.
You then have the choice between a grenade launcher and a lasgun, but not a grenade launcher and a plasma, melta etc.
Mandated or allowed? You're back to "that's not really a choice" territory.
H.B.M.C. is 100% correct that the weapon is lacking and point need adjusting in conjunction.
?
I'm not mandating anything, it would be an option. You could still take your plasma, flamer, melta etc (or multiple if the squad allows) you can then in addition choose to upgrade a squad member to have a grenade launcher. If you want to keep your lasgun, then you are all good.
See above, there's nearly no situation where the lasgun is worth taking for any reason beyond fluff/visuals, you're right it is a choice to make still but there is a fixed right/wrong one in games terms.
gungo wrote: Egh even if it was the only free wpn the grenade launcher isn’t auto include… there is so much that improves lasguns you may just want a lasgun instead.. like a Cadian shock troop with frfsrf in rapid range.
That was true in the past, but FRFSRF now makes laguns heavy 3, and a frag grenade does 3.5 lasgun equivalent shots on average (with blast upping that potential).
FRFSRF is still better on shock troops unless maximum blast is in effect due to the bonus hits on las weapons. Should average at 2 hits per las weapon vs 1.75 per frag. If you're going down the volume of fire path for the new version of hammer of the emperor it's relevant I guess.
How is a heavy 3 weapon hitting twice at bs 4+?
Shock troopers have exploding 6's to hit on las weapons.
3 shots at 4+ = 1.5 hits
3 shots with 1/6 chance of exploding = 0.5 extra hits
It's all moot though, as you take either a plasma or melta regardless of las being better than frag.
Haighus wrote: I've been thinking an interesting fix for Deathstrikes is to make them target reserves- make the launcher automatically go off on turn 3 (if alive), and roll a D6 for every unit the opponent has in reserve- on a 2+ the unit dies or something along those lines. Forces the opponent to limit their strategic options or focus fire early on an otherwise useless unit.
Maybe let them score VPs if the opponent has no reserves when they instead target rear areas.
It also lets you...........fire into a combat with your own troops? LMAO
Dudeface wrote: To be fair they've demonstrably shown for many editions the tiny points range they allow for special weapons costs isn't enough given the profiles they have. There isn't a big enough variance for "don't take the best", you could have 10pt plasma/melta and flamer/gl be free and I dare say people would still be 100% paid upgrades or 0%.
So let's all give up and go home?
I mean, consider the advantages. I'm the living proof, ever since I stopped entertaining the notion of playing 40k again, I became a lot a happier with how my time and money are spent. And, frankly, the moral superiority compared to the rest of you is an inexhaustible wellspring. Currently I'm engaged in scratchbuilding an Ork vehicle so big and pointless that even trying to write rules for it would be idiotic, and I actually have a smile on my face again, something which never happened in the god knows how many miserable defeats I endured at the gaming table.
To put things into perspective: When I last won a game of 40k, Tony Blair was still Prime Minister.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: You can still only throw one grenade, right? So why not just make the grenade launcher a squad ability that allows you to throw a grenade at 24"?
The grenade launcher model would just an reminder to show that the squad does have that ability. Sort of like how Orks are all meant to have grenades, but you don't have the bits to give everyone a nade.
As it's just an ability it doesn't take up any special weapon slots.
Considering how grenade rules have changed since 2nd edition, this is actually a smart idea. And this is coming from someone who liked grenade launchers as a template/krak grenade delivery system!
Checking the sprue pics over on the GW site, looks like the gasmask heads and belt-fed autogun are not included with the initial set. Wasn't there mention of these being an upgrade sprue or something?
Command sprue is ace though, packed to the gills with a crapton of bits, including all special weapons, multiple heads and all options for both commander and veteran sergeant, I can see myself making a useless fighty command squad already.
Well, super annoying that there is sprue that is not included, and there is no information whether it will be sold separately or packed with the kits when they come available.
robbienw wrote: Could be an add-on for a kill team release of the infantry squad.
Like the smaller sprue in the Krieg Squad (and other squads) with variant/specialist bits.
Yes, this is what I fear, as it means if you want to equip the guard from this box with gasmasks you're out of luck, as the sprue will not be available separately.
I could see them do a KT sprue for the Cadians, would be neat, as I'm itching to use Cadians for future KT games now.
Also, digging the amount of gubbins and stowage on each sprue, the Sentinel alone has quite the amount of extra kit and the Shock Troops set comes with a few sandbags hehe.
I'll be honest, given the forthcoming Kasrkin kill team, I'm hard press to believe that would be the case. In fact I'm more likely to believe they just left the sprue shot out accidentally. Or, there just isn't a sprue, and the rumours of vejng able to do every face with a gasmask being wrong
The infantry squad sprues are what interest me the most, but GW's modern CAD design means it can be really hard to figure out parts breakdowns from 2D images. They're certainly very fully packed, with what seems to be a whopping 25 heads per 10 troops.The new command squad seems to be pushing those numbers even higher, with 15 heads for 5 dudes, unless I'm mistaken.
I have to say, I wasn't expecting for the ordnance battery sprues to be able to build two of the same gun for whatever reason. Perhaps cynicism. I wonder how easy it will be to magnetize the different options. If not that, I see a lot of parts there that Ork players would enjoy. Alternatively, building alternative carriages for the leftover guns could be relatively easily done even without 3d printing assistance.
gungo wrote: Egh even if it was the only free wpn the grenade launcher isn’t auto include… there is so much that improves lasguns you may just want a lasgun instead.. like a Cadian shock troop with frfsrf in rapid range.
That was true in the past, but FRFSRF now makes laguns heavy 3, and a frag grenade does 3.5 lasgun equivalent shots on average (with blast upping that potential).
FRFSRF is still better on shock troops unless maximum blast is in effect due to the bonus hits on las weapons. Should average at 2 hits per las weapon vs 1.75 per frag. If you're going down the volume of fire path for the new version of hammer of the emperor it's relevant I guess.
How is a heavy 3 weapon hitting twice at bs 4+?
Shock troopers have exploding 6's to hit on las weapons.
3 shots at 4+ = 1.5 hits
3 shots with 1/6 chance of exploding = 0.5 extra hits
It's all moot though, as you take either a plasma or melta regardless of las being better than frag.
^ this exploding 6s and frfsrf is better then grenade launcher…
parade drill and rapid fire 1/2 range aren’t as great but still close the gap…
But back on point grenade launchers aren’t always worth it even if they were free…I mean they still have the cost of using that special weapons slot…
diepotato47 wrote: Just look at those Sentinel weapons, this kit has been made with magnets in mind.
I'm honestly a little annoyed that they're right side only.
I know we're being trained not to expect conversion potential, but hate to see it blocking build variety within the kit itself.
KillerAngel wrote: Doth mine eyes deceive me, or is there two of each special weapon in the command squad sprues?
That is true, which makes the rumoured one special weapon per command a bit strange
Link on p76 to playtest codex leak info where that rumour comes from - there are seemingly 2 command squads now (Cadian and normal), normal one is build your own but no duplicate choices, Cadian one seems to be 0-2 guns but weirdly worded.
Commamd squad tactical rock can be replaced with a tactical sandbag. Nice.
Seriously it’s great that there’s at least options for that, if gw is going to insist that a model is going to pose on something. The new possessed had the same thing
2x Gasmask heads on the command sprue (Karskin style, add on the mask to the head).
Please Please Please GW... Don't make them the only 2x in any kit, anywhere.... However, there is a peaked cap gas mask head also, so yeah... Cadian Shock troop upgrade sprue. Here's hoping it's available separately.
2 gas masks really is one of those things that makes no sense. You would either expect everyone to wear one or no one. It's not like gas attacks only happen to small local areas or parts of a squad.
Dolnikan wrote: 2 gas masks really is one of those things that makes no sense. You would either expect everyone to wear one or no one. It's not like gas attacks only happen to small local areas or parts of a squad.
Welcome to the Imperium?
Honestly with the tremendous number of gasmask heads in plastic, metal and resin around this doesn't bother me at all.
Here is my unboxing & review of the new Astra Militarum army set, incl. high-res sprue pics of all pics, a size comparison of the new Cadians with Kasrkin, Death Korps and various other human and Space Marine models, and a flick-through the new book (and confirmation of most of the leaked content):
I bought one Cadia stands box, just gonna wait on the Combat Patrol and roll the dice on the chance that it doesn't contain garbage. Website loaded fine, doesn't seem to be a huge queue on this right now but I'm still expecting it to sell out by day's end (maybe earlier!).
Automatically Appended Next Post: Are all the heads that size though? I did notice that peahead in the publicity pics and decided I wouldn't be using that one but there seems to be some variance from what I saw (I'll have to go back and check now I suppose). Thx for the pics as always stahly.
stahly wrote: Here is my unboxing & review of the new Astra Militarum army set, incl. high-res sprue pics of all pics, a size comparison of the new Cadians with Kasrkin, Death Korps and various other human and Space Marine models, and a flick-through the new book (and confirmation of most of the leaked content):
I imagine it's an artistic choice? Whatever, I'm happy to see it, I like to have my marines tower over my baseline guys. Here's what I mean about variance in the heads, looks like that slightly squished head might be atypical (or the face at least)
That particular head is kinda androgynous imo, there's a couple of more obviously female heads (from what I remember) but that one could pass for either male or female, but yeah I suppose your theory could explain it and in turn confirm that head as female.
stahly wrote: Here is my unboxing & review of the new Astra Militarum army set, incl. high-res sprue pics of all pics, a size comparison of the new Cadians with Kasrkin, Death Korps and various other human and Space Marine models, and a flick-through the new book (and confirmation of most of the leaked content):
GW needs a new model design team, everything has a soft video game aesthetic. It's obvious their artists come from a background of anime and video games. Nothing feels 40k anymore. Chaos/Orcs were particularly cartoonish.
The old guardsmen are better in every way, the only problem with them are the dwarf-like proportions. What's going on with the pants and horrible kneepads? It looks like someone forgot to sculpt kneepad details then slapped some on last minute.
Maybe their best sculptors are all working on the old world?!
stahly wrote: Here is my unboxing & review of the new Astra Militarum army set, incl. high-res sprue pics of all pics, a size comparison of the new Cadians with Kasrkin, Death Korps and various other human and Space Marine models, and a flick-through the new book (and confirmation of most of the leaked content):
Could you do me a huge favour and post a good quality close up photo/scan of a codex picture showing the shock troop models with the gasmask heads?
Can't really find one, as the Cadian Shock Troops sprue doesn't have gasmasks at all, there are only two gas mask heads on the Command Squad Sprue, probably for the two flamers.
Can't really find one, as the Cadian Shock Troops sprue doesn't have gasmasks at all, there are only two gas mask heads on the Command Squad Sprue, probably for the two flamers.
Yes, I know the sprue doesn't have them, but some of the codex pics show bits that are not on the sprue, like the gasmasks and the belt fed autogun. The last pic of your article shows them, but there is some glare and it is rather zoomed out.
Reviews are up, anybody found a good review that covers close up looks at the pages? So far only found either people reading from the book zoomed out, or heads on screens.
I have mixed feelings about the newer "true" scale that GW are doing these days. Sure, the proportions are far more realistic, but painting heads is becoming very difficult. It's like GW forgot the reason that Heroic scale existed.
I noticed it very much on the Sisters refresh and now Cadians. I'm glad that I have plenty of alternative heads, put it that way.
Scottywan82 wrote: Weird. So the Cadian Shock Troops unit entry says they can have the same special weapon twice. I thought that wasn't allowed.
It is super weirdly worded. It says up to two can replace, and then redundantly adds that you cannot take the same weapon more than twice...
Agreed. And the DKoK unit entry is even weirder. It includes 1 Sgt, 8 Troopers, and 1 Plasma as standard, plus up to two flamer/sniper/melta/GL, and also has the no more than 2 per unit note.
Found a few models not seen before on Warhammer community in the new dex.
New Aegis Defence line, a few additional bitz that aren't on the Infantry or Command Squad sprue in the box, and two unseen head options for the new Cadian Castellan:
Is there anything in the fluff that tries to explain why Kasrkin are that much bigger?
Back in the day... the biggest strongest dudes would get the job of lobbing grenades (big lead balls loaded with gun powder) and were called grenadiers. Over time grenade lobbing disappeared as a specialist and grenadiers became elite squads of the biggest and the strongest.
I would imagine that in the Grim Dark the biggest and strongest get injected or implanted to make them biggester strongester and become Kasrkin.
If would be hysterical to use Necromunda Goliaths as your Kasrkin.
stahly wrote: Found a few models not seen before on Warhammer community in the new dex.
New Aegis Defence line, a few additional bitz that aren't on the Infantry or Command Squad sprue in the box, and two unseen head options for the new Cadian Castellan:
diepotato47 wrote: Reviews are up, anybody found a good review that covers close up looks at the pages? So far only found either people reading from the book zoomed out, or heads on screens.
Spoiler:
Ash from GMG usually does a good job for that, I feel.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I have mixed feelings about the newer "true" scale that GW are doing these days. Sure, the proportions are far more realistic, but painting heads is becoming very difficult. It's like GW forgot the reason that Heroic scale existed.
I noticed it very much on the Sisters refresh and now Cadians. I'm glad that I have plenty of alternative heads, put it that way.
I'm in the boat of thinking GW went way overboard with "heroic scale", the old Cadians looked too much like children.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I have mixed feelings about the newer "true" scale that GW are doing these days. Sure, the proportions are far more realistic, but painting heads is becoming very difficult. It's like GW forgot the reason that Heroic scale existed.
I noticed it very much on the Sisters refresh and now Cadians. I'm glad that I have plenty of alternative heads, put it that way.
I'm in the boat of thinking GW went way overboard with "heroic scale", the old Cadians looked too much like children.
They are certainly chunky, sure.
I'd prefer somwhere between the two. I've always been happy with my old Cadians with the Forge World head upgrades, the FW heads were way better/slimmer than the old Cadian plastics.
I'd like to pick up more but their price on ebay is something that I can't afford. Regardless, I think they'll go nicely with the new models, I plan to use some of the newer plastic upgrade heads on the new Cadians.
Hey, Stahly, could you tell us the diameter of the artillery wheels? I want more WWI look, and I'm contemplating ordering some third party trench wheels for these.
Yeah, is there some fluff saying Kasrkin are big? Are they specially bred or something?
Wasn't there something in one of the Eisenhorn books about it?
There's a lot of different bits and bobs over the years in novels about it. The basic gist per Shadowvaults is that they have top tier physical exercise regimens and are constantly engaged in training when not at war. They're the "best unaugmented soldiers" that humanity has at its disposal.
Yeah, is there some fluff saying Kasrkin are big? Are they specially bred or something?
Wasn't there something in one of the Eisenhorn books about it?
There's a lot of different bits and bobs over the years in novels about it. The basic gist per Shadowvaults is that they have top tier physical exercise regimens and are constantly engaged in training when not at war. They're the "best unaugmented soldiers" that humanity has at its disposal.
Doesn't really explain why they'd be taller though.
I've read fluff that some groups are specifically bred to better soldiers via eugenics, so even though they're not augmented like a Marine, it'd make sense that they'd be physically larger. Dunno the fluff for Kasrkin though.
Like I said, there was a lot of various old stuff that I don't know if is canon or not anymore.
In the past we had:
-Biological augmentations/enhancements ala the SPARTAN program from Halo(muscular implantations, genemods, etc)
-Marked out at young age and genemodded
The one I'd lean towards going with now though is simply "They're picked for it". Kasrkin aren't even all Cadians anymore!
I wonder what old Cadians with new Cadian heads would look like. Probably too comical to be of use. I like the Castellan with a helmet, as it incidentally looks a bit like a senior officer I converted myself a long time ago, with a spare Outrider head from the Empire Pistoliers box.
AtoMaki wrote: Those suspenders worn over the armor are too funny. I bet the model designer has never worn any kind of military-grade body gear.
Huh? How else do you think that's supposed to work?
I actually quite like the new webbing + armor design. It's a visual callback to the pewter Cadians and makes a lot more sense than an unsuspended belt rig with haphazard mix of LBE.
Bobthehero wrote: Kinda dilutes the ''Kasr'' part of their name, RIP
It does and it doesn't.
The Cadian regiments that are still around are recruiting Cadians and non-Cadians to form new Kasrkin units. There's only been one, per Shadowvaults, that consisted fully of non-Cadians.
All of the training is being overseen by the OG Kasrkin that are still left. They're not letting anyone slack.
AtoMaki wrote: Those suspenders worn over the armor are too funny. I bet the model designer has never worn any kind of military-grade body gear.
Huh? How else do you think that's supposed to work?
That image show actual webbing worn over soft armor. Hard armor like plate carriers have integrated webbing, you don't quite see separate webbing over hard armor for a very good reason. And then webbing has its own characteristics that makes it into actual webbing rather than suspenders-for-soldiers. Like, I get what the model designer aimed for, but oh boy it is a hilarious miss.
AtoMaki wrote: That image show actual webbing worn over soft armor. Hard armor like plate carriers have integrated webbing, you don't quite see separate webbing over hard armor for a very good reason. And then webbing has its own characteristics that makes it into actual webbing rather than suspenders-for-soldiers. Like, I get what the model designer aimed for, but oh boy it is a hilarious miss.
I've worn ceramics in a low-profile plate carrier with an ALICE rig over top, the ISAPI ceramic carrier was used in that manner in the mid to late 90s, and I saw guys issued suspender rigs over Interceptors in the early-00s (example). It's also still (very occasionally) done with more modern PC+battle belt setups when the belts are harnessed. I'm not sure where you get the idea that that's impossible; it certainly isn't popular anymore as belt+suspender setups went out of vogue in the 00s, but that's less to do with suspenders being incompatible with armor and more to do with chest rigs being more ideal for getting into and out of vehicles, as well as PCs being able to do double duty with carrying plates and serving as LBE.
But the models don't strike me as trying to look like state-of-the-art ultra-sci-fi dudes. They remind me a lot of 1980s-era USGI body armor and webbing, specifically the PASGT+ALICE combo, plus the obligatory goofy shoulderpads. Suspenders over hard armor doesn't violate my suspension of disbelief like the old models having no LBE to speak of did. YMMV.
Kanluwen wrote: Like I said, there was a lot of various old stuff that I don't know if is canon or not anymore.
In the past we had:
-Biological augmentations/enhancements ala the SPARTAN program from Halo(muscular implantations, genemods, etc)
-Marked out at young age and genemodded
The one I'd lean towards going with now though is simply "They're picked for it". Kasrkin aren't even all Cadians anymore!
Just a better diet can lead to greater height during a person’s childhood and formative years.
JWBS wrote: Bobthehero is talking about the Kasrs (ie Qasrs), found on Cadia in the lore. Cadia is gone so the Kasrs are gone, so Kasrkin is anachronistic.
Kasrs aren't gone though? It's just the name of fortified Cadian cities and also some of the fortress worlds in the Cadian system.
AtoMaki wrote: Those suspenders worn over the armor are too funny. I bet the model designer has never worn any kind of military-grade body gear.
Huh? How else do you think that's supposed to work?
That image show actual webbing worn over soft armor. Hard armor like plate carriers have integrated webbing, you don't quite see separate webbing over hard armor for a very good reason. And then webbing has its own characteristics that makes it into actual webbing rather than suspenders-for-soldiers. Like, I get what the model designer aimed for, but oh boy it is a hilarious miss.
The CAF sorta does it? We have Frag Vest that are soft, with pouches to put in ballistic plates. Then on top of it, we wear our webbing.
Yeah, that's what I meant with "you don't quite see". Early intermediate armor like the Interceptor can fit independent webbing, tho I bet the guy in the middle had sore shoulders for a week .
To be fair, GW has never shown an interest in real-world military matters. None of their tank designs show more than a pop-culture understanding of how tanks work, most of their firearms lack even rudimentary sights, etc.
AtoMaki wrote: Those suspenders worn over the armor are too funny. I bet the model designer has never worn any kind of military-grade body gear.
Huh? How else do you think that's supposed to work?
That image show actual webbing worn over soft armor. Hard armor like plate carriers have integrated webbing, you don't quite see separate webbing over hard armor for a very good reason. And then webbing has its own characteristics that makes it into actual webbing rather than suspenders-for-soldiers. Like, I get what the model designer aimed for, but oh boy it is a hilarious miss.
Depends on how the Flak Armour is made.
It’s kind of a catch all term, rather than a specific definition. I could well see it being made out of the same material as Mesh armour, just as separate plates rather than a whole torso or body suit.
That would leave it nice and flexible for movement, only stiffening up upon impact. Hence no issue having your webbing going over the top of it.
Yeah, that's what I meant with "you don't quite see". Early intermediate armor like the Interceptor can fit independent webbing, tho I bet the guy in the middle had sore shoulders for a week .
Here, it's still used in some places of the world. You can see it better on the guy to the left, who's got a more modern vest than the rest everyone else.
I like how we've now arrived at 'Kasrkin are so elite that they're just bigger than other Cadians who were already super elite, able to strip as lasgun before they can walk, defenders of the Gate, famed across the galaxy, etc.'
Well we now need some of the regular Cadians to be randomly be bigger and require 32mm bases. Because they're the guys that might one day become kasrkins.
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Lord Damocles wrote: I like how we've now arrived at 'Kasrkin are so elite that they're just bigger than other Cadians who were already super elite, able to strip as lasgun before they can walk, defenders of the Gate, famed across the galaxy, etc.'
OldMate wrote: Ugh 32mm bases and much bigger kasrkins? Gross. It does imply now that the force is recruiting on size and not merit.
Size and merit are the same thing in GW land, look at Warcry, fighters on the same sprue are sized differently based on their rank.
Well that could kinda be made to make sense in Age of Sigmar. And in Chaos forces in 40k. Its the physical effects of the favor of their god.
But recruiting regular sized guys and then your elite corp apparently drawn from those guys being a full foot taller, and bigger in every proportion is a bit suspicious. Like they're undergoing some kind of pseudo astates style augmetation.
The kill team guys come with 32mm bases and are a foot bigger than everyone else. Well half a head. But as it is in all dimensions including their guns and grenades its pretty frickin considerable. And to me its pretty frickin visually jarring.
Back on page 74 there a couple photos which show the new Kasrkin are pretty much in sync with the old metal ones. So them being bigger than standard Cadians has been a thing for a while now.
The kill team guys come with 32mm bases and are a foot bigger than everyone else. Well half a head. But as it is in all dimensions including their guns and grenades its pretty frickin considerable. And to me its pretty frickin visually jarring.
The KT guys do not come with 32mm bases. They're on 28mm bases, same as the new Cadian Command Squads.
Dawnbringer wrote: Back on page 74 there a couple photos which show the new Kasrkin are pretty much in sync with the old metal ones. So them being bigger than standard Cadians has been a thing for a while now.
That's only true of the sergeant, which is a whole head taller than every other Karskin.
All the other kasrkin minis were as tall as the rest of the contemporary IG minis, and exactly as tall as the older stormtroopers:
So, no, it's not been a thing for a while, unless you only use sergeants for your kasrkin.
About time. He was old and came out of retirement during the 2nd War for Armageddon. It's better to let characters die and beome history and legend than to drag them through the evolving background. It was annoying to see Kryptman coming back after he was described old in the times of the first Tyrannic War as well.
Dawnbringer wrote: Back on page 74 there a couple photos which show the new Kasrkin are pretty much in sync with the old metal ones. So them being bigger than standard Cadians has been a thing for a while now.
That's only true of the sergeant, which is a whole head taller than every other Karskin.
All the other kasrkin minis were as tall as the rest of the contemporary IG minis, and exactly as tall as the older stormtroopers:
So, no, it's not been a thing for a while, unless you only use sergeants for your kasrkin.
And the sergeant is taller and not bigger in every dimension. I.e his gun looks pretty proportional next to another guardsmen's he is not carrying a whole 10% of bulk on his entire body.
In other words they made him a bigger human being, they didn't and could not just get a kasrkin model in blender and make it 10% bigger than a regular trooper.
Which is why the new ones are so visually jarring next to their regular counterparts.
To fix it all you'd need to do is scale that model down 10%. But the molds are made and the initial run of models produced now so its too frickin late.
I mean i want to like the new models, the cadians look great, the kasrkins look great but their size is a step backwards. The fact that the kasrkin are now incompatible not just with the exisiting kits but with the cadians they are meant to be intergrated with is just trademark stupidity.
The new sentinel is cool, but the armoured one is very much a battle walker and not a recon vehicle in layout and design, not necessarily a bad thing, just interesting. Its essentially a sidegrade from the old armoured sentinel model. I the new sentinel kit is a win especially as beside the old ones it will look cool, more armoued, more sophisticated legs/feet.
The new tank is a cool idea, but it fill a niche occupied by 2 very nice but completely garbage rules wise resin models from forgeworld. It is seemingly a victim of power creep and brings a decadently large arsenal to a game where power levels are sorta soaring out of control.
The field weapons look good. I like the concept, towed heavy weapons for the guard have always made sense but the models are not even out and there is much nicer resin models now on the market that pin down that slammin forgeworld asthetic. Which to me, being an Australian will probably end up being cheaper, or like $10 dearer.
I only realised when I saw a Royal the other day wearing the trousers with the kneepad sockets empty. Seeing as I'm not a Royal, I still have to make do with my issued Blackhawk kneepads should I get into a situation I'd rather not be in.
What particularly is it about the knee pads? The fact that there are no visible straps or means of support?
If so, while it looks strange, the new Royal Marines combat uniform made by Crye Precision does indeed utilise removable kneepads (sold separately!).
Yeah, no support straps look strange, plus the lack of detail makes it look like someone flattened two blobs of green stuff and said "good enough". The pant folds/shape aren't very good either, overall everything looks cute and cartoonish.
The soft baby faces don't help. I think the old guardsmen look much more realistic and gritty (besides the squat proportions)
Nothing else about their uniform looks like a high-speed-low-drag Crye-laden modern operator, though. Their design is otherwise very 80s/90s, carrying a mid-20th-century styled rifle, and then they've got modern integral kneepads. It doesn't strike me as a deliberate anachronism so much as a last-minute addition. Personally, if I pick up any of the new Cadians, I'll probably be carving those kneepads off.
About time. He was old and came out of retirement during the 2nd War for Armageddon. It's better to let characters die and beome history and legend than to drag them through the evolving background. It was annoying to see Kryptman coming back after he was described old in the times of the first Tyrannic War as well.
I've always been one who prefers characters don't die off, at least in the context of a wargaming setting.
But I'm also one of those people who doesn't think the universe needs to be moving forward.
An alternative is to expand elsewhere in the universe, and if GW didn't want to sell Yarrick any more they could have just done that without actually killing him and then if in 10 years they decide they want to do another Yarrick model they bring him back out again.
Nothing else about their uniform looks like a high-speed-low-drag Crye-laden modern operator, though. Their design is otherwise very 80s/90s, carrying a mid-20th-century styled rifle, and then they've got modern integral kneepads. It doesn't strike me as a deliberate anachronism so much as a last-minute addition. Personally, if I pick up any of the new Cadians, I'll probably be carving those kneepads off.
I wouldn't expect 40K uniforms to be sleek and practical.
It's more that integrated kneepads with no visible straps are a thing now. It's not something that a GW designer has made up. Whether or not they've modelled it well is a whole other subjective matter.
As long as Dredd's uniform isn't updated. I'd miss his oversized protective bits and bobs.
If they move the setting forward in time some charactersshould die off,
New karsikin are to big and suck because of it.
New lord solar sucks.
The rest look good for cadians.
OldMate wrote: Well that could kinda be made to make sense in Age of Sigmar. And in Chaos forces in 40k. Its the physical effects of the favor of their god.
I thought the favor of the gods materialized as pinheads and flatulence?
Warcry warbands are supposed to be regular tribesmen who have yet to gain the attention of the gods, let alone any favor. Personally I'd go with HBMC's explanation:
H.B.M.C. wrote: Or it's just another poorly scaled set of miniatures from a company with an increasingly... let's say "casual" approach to design.
I've remarked on this before, but I'm not getting the impression that GW's design team has much in the way of managerial oversight or anybody whose job is to enforce consistency.
They're also in the process of transitioning their model style from more to less heroic proportions, especially with the heads becoming far smaller, which seems to be an ongoing process in which finished work is not revised. For instance, when the latest Chaos Terminators were released, they managed to make the traditional anatomy problem of Terminators even worse while we got far improved power armored models at the same time. It didn't look like the Terminators were designed at the same time and were just earlier sculpts whose release was held back.
I'm not getting the impression that GW is bothered by models being out of whack, and I don't think we should give them the benefit of the doubt that there is some fluff that explains discrepancies.
About time. He was old and came out of retirement during the 2nd War for Armageddon. It's better to let characters die and beome history and legend than to drag them through the evolving background. It was annoying to see Kryptman coming back after he was described old in the times of the first Tyrannic War as well.
I've always been one who prefers characters don't die off, at least in the context of a wargaming setting.
But I'm also one of those people who doesn't think the universe needs to be moving forward.
An alternative is to expand elsewhere in the universe, and if GW didn't want to sell Yarrick any more they could have just done that without actually killing him and then if in 10 years they decide they want to do another Yarrick model they bring him back out again.
They committed to transforming the setting into an ongoing story, so they kind of have to deal with the passing of time now. They could make old dudes live forever by just not mentioning them anymore, but they'd run into the problem that the ongoing narrative approach sets expectations and fans would want to know what's going on with all the characters.
I doubt they'll have any trouble with Yarrick going forward even if they want to bring him back. He'll just be a new sculpt of a historical character and gets that commemorative series label on his box. Or they do the same they did with Old Creed and just make New Creed who is like Old Creed but isn't actually Old Creed. Or they go the AoS route and say that something so trifling as dying during the end of the world isn't going to stop anyone from popping up again. Or retconning his death to be a rumor or propaganda tool.
With the timeline having moved forward the way it did, anybody expecting Yarrick to still be around was fooling himself. He was old by the time of the 3rd War For Armageddon, and that was over 100 years ago by the current point in time.
They could still have kept his rules around thoough - "historical characters" were a thing before. GW chose not to, and this sucks for everybody who owns the model. Sadly this is GW of today...
Darnok wrote: With the timeline having moved forward the way it did, anybody expecting Yarrick to still be around was fooling himself. He was old by the time of the 3rd War For Armageddon, and that was over 100 years ago by the current point in time.
This is 40k, just give him some rejuvenation procedures or put him into stasis or some stuff.
Wouldn't be the first time someone came back from old age in the grim dark universe.
Darnok wrote: With the timeline having moved forward the way it did, anybody expecting Yarrick to still be around was fooling himself. He was old by the time of the 3rd War For Armageddon, and that was over 100 years ago by the current point in time.
They could still have kept his rules around thoough - "historical characters" were a thing before. GW chose not to, and this sucks for everybody who owns the model. Sadly this is GW of today...
Exactly. 2nd and 3rd edition had characters who were already 'dead' in the current timeline. Macharus and some of the SoB characters come to mind. Yet you could play them against Tau or Necrons or other threats that did not exist when they were alive.
The kill team guys come with 32mm bases and are a foot bigger than everyone else. Well half a head. But as it is in all dimensions including their guns and grenades its pretty frickin considerable. And to me its pretty frickin visually jarring.
Always a pleasure watching GW offending their customers.
Dawnbringer wrote: Back on page 74 there a couple photos which show the new Kasrkin are pretty much in sync with the old metal ones. So them being bigger than standard Cadians has been a thing for a while now.
That's only true of the sergeant, which is a whole head taller than every other Karskin.
All the other kasrkin minis were as tall as the rest of the contemporary IG minis, and exactly as tall as the older stormtroopers:
So, no, it's not been a thing for a while, unless you only use sergeants for your kasrkin.
And the sergeant is taller and not bigger in every dimension. I.e his gun looks pretty proportional next to another guardsmen's he is not carrying a whole 10% of bulk on his entire body.
In other words they made him a bigger human being, they didn't and could not just get a kasrkin model in blender and make it 10% bigger than a regular trooper.
Which is why the new ones are so visually jarring next to their regular counterparts.
To fix it all you'd need to do is scale that model down 10%. But the molds are made and the initial run of models produced now so its too frickin late.
I mean i want to like the new models, the cadians look great, the kasrkins look great but their size is a step backwards. The fact that the kasrkin are now incompatible not just with the exisiting kits but with the cadians they are meant to be intergrated with is just trademark stupidity.
The new sentinel is cool, but the armoured one is very much a battle walker and not a recon vehicle in layout and design, not necessarily a bad thing, just interesting. Its essentially a sidegrade from the old armoured sentinel model. I the new sentinel kit is a win especially as beside the old ones it will look cool, more armoued, more sophisticated legs/feet.
The new tank is a cool idea, but it fill a niche occupied by 2 very nice but completely garbage rules wise resin models from forgeworld. It is seemingly a victim of power creep and brings a decadently large arsenal to a game where power levels are sorta soaring out of control.
The field weapons look good. I like the concept, towed heavy weapons for the guard have always made sense but the models are not even out and there is much nicer resin models now on the market that pin down that slammin forgeworld asthetic. Which to me, being an Australian will probably end up being cheaper, or like $10 dearer.
It´s not stupidity but greed. Scale creep has been implemented to nudge hobbyists into burning their vintage Cadians and jump onto the hype train to buy the new Cadia box.
It´s not stupidity but greed. Scale creep has been implemented to nudge hobbyists into burning their vintage Cadians and jump onto the hype train to buy the new Cadia box.
I'm sorry but why would collectors of models that are representing regular humans who would be different heights go and burn their other models?
I'm solidly against scale creep - bigger models are less functional in a wargame, they take up more of the board, they are less able to make use of cover and LOS blocking. And harder to store. Plus it is harder to paint them well. I don't mind having humans of all sorts and sizes though, I just don't want them to ALL be huge. On the plus side though it looks like I could get a few of the huge new humans to crew 1/35 scale historical vehicle kits and look pretty good.
It´s not stupidity but greed. Scale creep has been implemented to nudge hobbyists into burning their vintage Cadians and jump onto the hype train to buy the new Cadia box.
I'm sorry but why would collectors of models that are representing regular humans who would be different heights go and burn their other models?
It's often overlooked that human height is actually not uniform at all.
The designers here are slowly breaking away from the 28mm human bubble heads and going somewhat more realistic... I can understand people preferring the more cartoon style for painting reasons or if they think this is becoming like just another boring 3D assets we see from other developers... looks great on the screen but not fun at all to paint.
Well for some weird reason these make me think Starship troopers more than 40k Imperial guard. Almost like they were done by another company for other games. Im totally ok with that I could see getting me some for some convos.
Darnok wrote: With the timeline having moved forward the way it did, anybody expecting Yarrick to still be around was fooling himself. He was old by the time of the 3rd War For Armageddon, and that was over 100 years ago by the current point in time.
This is 40k, just give him some rejuvenation procedures or put him into stasis or some stuff.
Wouldn't be the first time someone came back from old age in the grim dark universe.
Plus...marbo ruins that theory. Age wise yarrick is more likely to be around.
But which one has plastic model on sale? That's the reai reason.
Wasn’t marbo and harker created for the third Ed catachan book. Yarrick was around in 2nd edition… the only other 2nd Ed character I remember was nork dedog.
gungo wrote: Wasn’t marbo and harker created for the third Ed catachan book. Yarrick was around in 2nd edition… the only other 2nd Ed character I remember was nork dedog.
If I see that correctly, then Yarrick was even Rogue Trader era. The now retired model is from Codex Armageddon. But you know who is also still able to be bought and dates back to 3rd? Gaunt and his Ghosts. And they are 99.999999% chance dead. The sabbat crusade was hundreds of years ago. And I doubt Abnett will warp teleport them into M42.
Maybe we are lucky, Armageddon seems to be a warzone in the future with Angron. Maybe we get new Steel Legion Models at least. Or they blow up the planet and pretend the Steel Legion never existed from there on.
gungo wrote: Wasn’t marbo and harker created for the third Ed catachan book. Yarrick was around in 2nd edition… the only other 2nd Ed character I remember was nork dedog.
Even in 2nd edition, Nork's story had him retire at a venerable age (for an Ogryn), so for him to be around but Yarrick dead, he's had to come out of retirement ONE MORE TIME...
It´s not stupidity but greed. Scale creep has been implemented to nudge hobbyists into burning their vintage Cadians and jump onto the hype train to buy the new Cadia box.
I'm sorry but why would collectors of models that are representing regular humans who would be different heights go and burn their other models?
It might be worth asking the Dark Eldar player who burnt his models and placed the video on Youtube as to what can drive someone to do that.
gungo wrote: Wasn’t marbo and harker created for the third Ed catachan book. Yarrick was around in 2nd edition… the only other 2nd Ed character I remember was nork dedog.
Even in 2nd edition, Nork's story had him retire at a venerable age (for an Ogryn), so for him to be around but Yarrick dead, he's had to come out of retirement ONE MORE TIME...
Yarrick will come out of retirement for the next Codex. Dramatic effect.
Rough Riders are back so no reason Yarrick won't be.
Makari is back and wasn't he a stain on Thraka's backside for a couple of editions?
The new crewed artillery. Anyone know how easy it’s looking to make the guns interchangeable? I’m guess the Las and Howitzer should be fairly easy as they share the same shield piece.
Darnok wrote: With the timeline having moved forward the way it did, anybody expecting Yarrick to still be around was fooling himself.
Yet Marbo and Harker are still in the book, so...
Pretty sure GW considers this the Trator Guard book as well, so... Chaosistency?
Alternative explainations include, but are not limited to "the modl broke" and "it's Tuesday, mmkay?". I don't know either!
Marbo and Harker can still be bought from GW's online store. I'm starting to think this rotation thing is a hoax and models don't go to the retirement farm. Does anybody know if there's a glue factory in Nottingham?
kestral wrote: I'm solidly against scale creep - bigger models are less functional in a wargame, they take up more of the board, they are less able to make use of cover and LOS blocking. And harder to store. Plus it is harder to paint them well. I don't mind having humans of all sorts and sizes though, I just don't want them to ALL be huge. On the plus side though it looks like I could get a few of the huge new humans to crew 1/35 scale historical vehicle kits and look pretty good.
A lot depends on how you handle larger models. Star Wars Legion doesn't have any issues using 27mm models to create an army game that's comparable to 40k from twenty years ago, and the only reason the bases have that bit of a larger size over 25mm bases is because they're taller.
The issue with GW models is that GW likes super buff dudes with wide leg poses that then get oversized bases for good measure. And then for some you can add swirly crap and tactical rocks as well. The more realistically scaled 35mm / 1/48 Legion models in sensible soldier poses have none of those issues, in spite of being so much larger than 28mm models.
Yes, tabletop functionality is a concern with larger models, but a lot of it is in the execution. GW has pretty much abandoned tabletop functionality as a concern at this point. Or transportation concerns as far back as the floaty vampire throne thingy that has fiddly bits sticking out in all directions.
The new crewed artillery. Anyone know how easy it’s looking to make the guns interchangeable? I’m guess the Las and Howitzer should be fairly easy as they share the same shield piece.
Best guess from the 360s, I think sharing parts will actually make it harder. Looks to me like the weapon and shield on the howitzer and AT gun use the same parts to attach it to the rest of the carriage while the rocket launcher uses its own parts. I reckon that will make them exchangeable as a whole subassembly, but when you try to exchange the barrels on the former two you'll have to leave the shield, two struts and of course the barrels as individual pieces. I don't think that's very practical.
So, the playtest ability to select a second Legion trait for Chosen, which was cut from the final codex, is an ability for Kasyrkin? Cool cool. And why are the shots/damage stats for CSM and Guard Demolisher Cannons swapped? Shouldn't they be the same? Because, y'know, same gun? I'm pretty sure they'll math out about the same, but it's just weird.
gungo wrote: Wasn’t marbo and harker created for the third Ed catachan book. Yarrick was around in 2nd edition… the only other 2nd Ed character I remember was nork dedog.
If I see that correctly, then Yarrick was even Rogue Trader era. The now retired model is from Codex Armageddon. But you know who is also still able to be bought and dates back to 3rd? Gaunt and his Ghosts. And they are 99.999999% chance dead. The sabbat crusade was hundreds of years ago. And I doubt Abnett will warp teleport them into M42.
Maybe we are lucky, Armageddon seems to be a warzone in the future with Angron. Maybe we get new Steel Legion Models at least. Or they blow up the planet and pretend the Steel Legion never existed from there on.
Well that list is a bit wrong. The Nork Deddog mini, demo charge Catachans and the tank crews are from 3rd edition, not 2nd. The Sanctioned psykers are from the second 3rd ed codex, not the first...
Voss wrote: Makari isn't a single gretchin. Its just what Ghaz calls the closest one. Several have been shot or eaten over the years.
Which, incidentally, is also dumb. Ghaz just happens to be surrounded by incredibly lucky grots (except for when Da Lucky Stik was available to any warboss, I guess)..? So there was - and is - nothing particularly special about either the original character nor the current one.
Voss wrote: Makari isn't a single gretchin. Its just what Ghaz calls the closest one. Several have been shot or eaten over the years.
Which, incidentally, is also dumb. Ghaz just happens to be surrounded by incredibly lucky grots (except for when Da Lucky Stik was available to any warboss, I guess)..? So there was - and is - nothing particularly special about either the original character nor the current one.
Except that Ghazghkull THINKS there is something particularly special about whichever grot happens to be nearest him at the time, and so there is, until he forgets about 'em and they die, then he gets a new one.
Stormtroopers no longer have keyword regiment, which means they do not get doctrines. UGH.
They don't, but they get their own rule (exploding 6s on all shooting) and hot shots are better, so it isn't exactly nothing.
Do we think theres a possibility Militarum Tempestus will get their own separate codex again ala 7th edition? Then the Astra Militarum codex MT units become like the genestealer options available in the Tyranids book, vs the genestealer options available in the Genestealer Cults book.
And I doubt Abnett will warp teleport them into M42.
He doesn't have to, the setting of the game is still officially some point in M41 thanks to convoluted retcons and warp-<removed>.
So various Youtubers are doing reviews, and the rules for the Death Korps is just weird. By default you have 8 Guardmens, 1 Plasma Gunner and 1 Sargeant. It lists that you can take two special weapons, (but it lists no Plasma Guns). Then it says that you can replace the Plasma gun with a vox?
So you can have 2 special weapons + plasma but no vox, or 2 specials but no plasma + vox.
Why would they do that? It isn't no model no rules, as the kit doesn't come with 2 special weapons of one type. It also says that you can't take more than 2 of the same special weapon (they also have this on the Cadian Shock Troops).
It´s not stupidity but greed. Scale creep has been implemented to nudge hobbyists into burning their vintage Cadians and jump onto the hype train to buy the new Cadia box.
I'm sorry but why would collectors of models that are representing regular humans who would be different heights go and burn their other models?
It might be worth asking the Dark Eldar player who burnt his models and placed the video on Youtube as to what can drive someone to do that.
I'm not sure what asking a clown for clarity would provide me.
It´s not stupidity but greed. Scale creep has been implemented to nudge hobbyists into burning their vintage Cadians and jump onto the hype train to buy the new Cadia box.
I'm sorry but why would collectors of models that are representing regular humans who would be different heights go and burn their other models?
It might be worth asking the Dark Eldar player who burnt his models and placed the video on Youtube as to what can drive someone to do that.
I'm not sure what asking a clown for clarity would provide me.
Firstly, it was a Dark Elf army, secondly it was nothing to do with scale creep and everything to do with WHFB being replaced with AoS.
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Dirk Reinecke wrote: So various Youtubers are doing reviews, and the rules for the Death Korps is just weird. By default you have 8 Guardmens, 1 Plasma Gunner and 1 Sargeant. It lists that you can take two special weapons, (but it lists no Plasma Guns). Then it says that you can replace the Plasma gun with a vox?
So you can have 2 special weapons + plasma but no vox, or 2 specials but no plasma + vox.
Why would they do that? It isn't no model no rules, as the kit doesn't come with 2 special weapons of one type. It also says that you can't take more than 2 of the same special weapon (they also have this on the Cadian Shock Troops).
Dirk Reinecke wrote: So various Youtubers are doing reviews, and the rules for the Death Korps is just weird. By default you have 8 Guardmens, 1 Plasma Gunner and 1 Sargeant. It lists that you can take two special weapons, (but it lists no Plasma Guns). Then it says that you can replace the Plasma gun with a vox?
So you can have 2 special weapons + plasma but no vox, or 2 specials but no plasma + vox.
Why would they do that? It isn't no model no rules, as the kit doesn't come with 2 special weapons of one type. It also says that you can't take more than 2 of the same special weapon (they also have this on the Cadian Shock Troops).
Very strange wording.
Vox bro/plasma gunner is built off the same model - officially you cannot build both out of the same box. There is no limit to how nitpicky NMNR based datasheets can go.
Did anyone have a chance to read the background section yet? I increasingly doubt I'm interested in the rules to play 40K before 10th even with a new dex. But I might grab a copy to read the current fluff section. That is, if it has any worth to it. If it's just one giant Cadian fan article I'll pass. There's only 10million left of them (according to the not very well written Cadia Stands book, or was that retconned), anything but a reservation is propaganda.
GiToRaZor wrote: Did anyone have a chance to read the background section yet? I increasingly doubt I'm interested in the rules to play 40K before 10th even with a new dex. But I might grab a copy to read the current fluff section. That is, if it has any worth to it. If it's just one giant Cadian fan article I'll pass. There's only 10million left of them (according to the not very well written Cadia Stands book, or was that retconned), anything but a reservation is propaganda.
So far, every 9th edition Codex has decreased background page count from 8th, and with bigger pictures taking up more space on those pages. New stuff - I imagine - will be limited to blurbs on the new special characters, a battlezone writeup and the death of Yarrick.
Voss wrote: Makari isn't a single gretchin. Its just what Ghaz calls the closest one. Several have been shot or eaten over the years.
Which, incidentally, is also dumb. Ghaz just happens to be surrounded by incredibly lucky grots (except for when Da Lucky Stik was available to any warboss, I guess)..? So there was - and is - nothing particularly special about either the original character nor the current one.
The Black Library Ghazghkull Thraka book shows Makari to be the same soul reincarnated repeatedly into different Grot bodies, and sometimes surfacing only later in the Grot's life.
Insularum wrote: Vox bro/plasma gunner is built off the same model - officially you cannot build both out of the same box. There is no limit to how nitpicky NMNR based datasheets can go.
You absolutely can build both out of the same box. Unless they remove the Kill Team sprue from the retail release, there's a second setup labeled as a "spotter veteran" which includes a slimmer Vox-Caster intended for a kneeling body.
Voss wrote: Makari isn't a single gretchin. Its just what Ghaz calls the closest one. Several have been shot or eaten over the years.
Which, incidentally, is also dumb. Ghaz just happens to be surrounded by incredibly lucky grots (except for when Da Lucky Stik was available to any warboss, I guess)..? So there was - and is - nothing particularly special about either the original character nor the current one.
The Black Library Ghazghkull Thraka book shows Makari to be the same soul reincarnated repeatedly into different Grot bodies, and sometimes surfacing only later in the Grot's life.
Insularum wrote: Vox bro/plasma gunner is built off the same model - officially you cannot build both out of the same box. There is no limit to how nitpicky NMNR based datasheets can go.
You absolutely can build both out of the same box. Unless they remove the Kill Team sprue from the retail release, there's a second setup labeled as a "spotter veteran" which includes a slimmer Vox-Caster intended for a kneeling body.
Is there another instruction manual than this one?
It´s not stupidity but greed. Scale creep has been implemented to nudge hobbyists into burning their vintage Cadians and jump onto the hype train to buy the new Cadia box.
I'm sorry but why would collectors of models that are representing regular humans who would be different heights go and burn their other models?
It might be worth asking the Dark Eldar player who burnt his models and placed the video on Youtube as to what can drive someone to do that.
I'm not sure what asking a clown for clarity would provide me.
Well, if the stuff he burnt were the original 3e sculpts, then nothing much was lost while everyone else got a good laugh.
Iracundus wrote: The Black Library Ghazghkull Thraka book shows Makari to be the same soul reincarnated repeatedly into different Grot bodies, and sometimes surfacing only later in the Grot's life.
Another one of those wonderful "Why explaining things often ruins the mystery" examples.
Iracundus wrote: The Black Library Ghazghkull Thraka book shows Makari to be the same soul reincarnated repeatedly into different Grot bodies, and sometimes surfacing only later in the Grot's life.
Another one of those wonderful "Why explaining things often ruins the mystery" examples.
Isn't doing that basically Black Library's raison d'être?
The DKoK wording is an abomination. As mentioned, there are two voxes on the DKoK sprue- the one on the main sprue fits the kneeling legs
The larger vox is actually from the extra sprue, and likely to disappear if the squad gets a non-Kill team release. This vox looks more like some kind of master vox rather than the standard DKoK model.
He doesn't have to, the setting of the game is still officially some point in M41 thanks to convoluted retcons and warp-<removed>.
Not only is that NOT true, there's literally a new dating system for events relative to the Rift opening that place them in M42. The retcon was only in relation to how long after the end of M41 everything takes places(~25 years vs the near 100-150 first suggested).
Haighus wrote: The larger vox is actually from the extra sprue, and likely to disappear if the squad gets a non-Kill team release. This vox looks more like some kind of master vox rather than the standard DKoK model.
Yeah, that sprue won't be part of the general release box. The box will be marginally cheaper, and not have those extras.
I imagine the same thing will be true for the Traitor Guard, as they can't be boxed with the Corrupted Commissar/Mutant Ogryn forever.
H.B.M.C. wrote: But they're "Warp Claws" or some other such nonsense now, which is totally not all the same thing even though it was when the kit was made...
Are you suggesting the past exists beyond something to mine Nostalgia Dollars from?
So we will be able to horde with platoons, right?
Eldar can go up to 20, Necron can go up to 20, OK can go up to 30
IG? Nope, platoon is a worthless keyword for orders. Go buy more Kasrkin.
I'm beyond disgusted with this codex.
gungo wrote: Wasn’t marbo and harker created for the third Ed catachan book. Yarrick was around in 2nd edition… the only other 2nd Ed character I remember was nork dedog.
If I see that correctly, then Yarrick was even Rogue Trader era. The now retired model is from Codex Armageddon. But you know who is also still able to be bought and dates back to 3rd? Gaunt and his Ghosts. And they are 99.999999% chance dead. The sabbat crusade was hundreds of years ago. And I doubt Abnett will warp teleport them into M42.
Maybe we are lucky, Armageddon seems to be a warzone in the future with Angron. Maybe we get new Steel Legion Models at least. Or they blow up the planet and pretend the Steel Legion never existed from there on.
Well that list is a bit wrong. The Nork Deddog mini, demo charge Catachans and the tank crews are from 3rd edition, not 2nd. The Sanctioned psykers are from the second 3rd ed codex, not the first...
Nork was definitely 2nd Ed… I started playing then and got him and several ogryns for my ork army (when orks could use ogryns) and for use in my steel legion army.
Nork was definitely 2nd Ed… I started playing then and got him and several ogryns for my ork army (when orks could use ogryns) and for use in my steel legion army.
Nork had rules in 2nd ed, but neither Nork(released in 2000) nor Steel Legion(also released in 2000) had models until 3rd(released in '98).
Gadzilla666 wrote: So, the same insanity that was applied to the CSM codex has also been applied to the Guard Codex. Lovely. /s
Except where with CSM their was seemingly some love, their is none here. Maybe units have been improved or fixed up, but the soul is withered and dead.
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GiToRaZor wrote: Did anyone have a chance to read the background section yet? I increasingly doubt I'm interested in the rules to play 40K before 10th even with a new dex. But I might grab a copy to read the current fluff section. That is, if it has any worth to it. If it's just one giant Cadian fan article I'll pass. There's only 10million left of them (according to the not very well written Cadia Stands book, or was that retconned), anything but a reservation is propaganda.
It's definitely that. Many of the other regiments are spoke of in passing but barely spoke of. It's the Cadian show, and they don't even do a good job of even that.
Gadzilla666 wrote: So, the same insanity that was applied to the CSM codex has also been applied to the Guard Codex. Lovely. /s
Except where with CSM their was seemingly some love, their is none here. Maybe units have been improved or fixed up, but the soul is withered and dead.
I'm sorry, you seem to have forgotten to add a "/s" after your first sentence to show that you were being sarcastic.
