Plenty of Beastmen minis in Age of Sigmar, quick conversion to give them basic guns and off you go. (They existed in 2nd edition take the rules from the old codex and you have beastmen in 40k).
AoS is not 40k and GW does not add stuff that has no model in 40k otherwise of course take what ever looks cool
question would be if it is worth to take over fan made lists with much more options and hope that they are widely accepted or wait unitil come up with stuff
Well, as mentioned above, the Genestealer cult have weapons from the re-boxed guard neophytes.
All GW needs to do is one generic weapons accessory sprue, then re-box it with appropriate kits or sell it separately.
That is if they intend to support shadow wars beyond the rulebook that is.
tneva82 wrote: Except thats conversion. No kit on sale no rules
The rulebook (if one feels they need to follow it verbatim) states that the game is full WYSIWYG and that models should be converted to ensure the correct Basic/Heavy/Specialist armament is carried.
Convert away I don't think GW are that bothered, quite the opposite in fact.
Shuma-Gorath wrote: Plenty of Beastmen minis in Age of Sigmar, quick conversion to give them basic guns and off you go. (They existed in 2nd edition take the rules from the old codex and you have beastmen in 40k).
You think GW's going to release 40K rules for miniatures that are specifically AoS?
Haven't they already done this with Tzaangors?
It's a rebox with an extra sprue, they could actually just use that same sprue and throw it in other beastmen boxes.
Shuma-Gorath wrote: Plenty of Beastmen minis in Age of Sigmar, quick conversion to give them basic guns and off you go. (They existed in 2nd edition take the rules from the old codex and you have beastmen in 40k).
You think GW's going to release 40K rules for miniatures that are specifically AoS?
Nope, I think we can use the old 2nd edition/necromunda rules for beastmen because they are compatible with the rules Shadow War uses.
question would be if it is worth to take over fan made lists with much more options and hope that they are widely accepted or wait unitil come up with stuff
I think you're thinking about this the wrong way. Shadow war is designed as a campaign game right? Which assumes you're going to be playing repeatedly with a core group of players over time. Within such a group, you can come up with whatever lists, scenarios, etc you want as long as the group agrees. "Widely Accepted" doesn't have alot of value at this point.
Saddling Shadow War with the same constraints and guidelines that you use when crafting a 40k or AoSFLGS-pickup-game-army misses the possibilities of the game. GW has given us a ruleset that is already almost-perfectly-compatible with the wealth of material released for 2nd edition 40k and Necromunda, to not take advantage of that would be silly.
Put another way, treat Shadow War more like Necromunda and less like current-edition 40k.
I think you're thinking about this the wrong way. Shadow war is designed as a campaign game right? Which assumes you're going to be playing repeatedly with a core group of players over time. [...]
Put another way, treat Shadow War more like Necromunda and less like current-edition 40k.
think of it that way, some people don't have a group but have do go to events to play
like back in Necromunda were you drive some hours to get to 2 day event campaign (because Necromunda players were rare and wide spread here)
so widely accepted house rules would help to play your not official supported faction on different events no matter which group organise them
Bull0 wrote: The obvious choice for conversions is the new kharadron overlords! Squat long distance surveyor team! *gets hype*
There's even a Squat mining team you could port over from Necromunda, just replace some of the mining heavy equipment with the ones in the Genestealer cult list.
I'm curious if the solo rulebook is going to be as successful as they hope.
While SWA is, I'm sure, a fine game...I think there was a massive component of "well priced terrain" coupled with "maybe I'll like the game" from most of the consumers. My curiosity is whether the rulebook purchases will be poor compared to GW's expectations. A lot of people wanted the SWA box because it represented a value.
$130
-Get a slight discount, say to $110 at an online retailer
-Order a couple.
-Set up your whole table
-Sell off the additional rulebook for $20
-Sell off the models you're not using for $15-30
-Get the templates/dice/tokens necessary for the game
-Sell additional templates/tokens for $5-10 on eBay
Overall the game itself with terrain bundled was a pretty reasonable deal. I know the demand for the rulebook will be okay, but I think it will pale in comparison to the desire for the full boxed game.
Elbows wrote: I'm curious if the solo rulebook is going to be as successful as they hope.
While SWA is, I'm sure, a fine game...I think there was a massive component of "well priced terrain" coupled with "maybe I'll like the game" from most of the consumers. My curiosity is whether the rulebook purchases will be poor compared to GW's expectations. A lot of people wanted the SWA box because it represented a value.
$130
-Get a slight discount, say to $110 at an online retailer
-Order a couple.
-Set up your whole table
-Sell off the additional rulebook for $20
-Sell off the models you're not using for $15-30
-Get the templates/dice/tokens necessary for the game
-Sell additional templates/tokens for $5-10 on eBay
Overall the game itself with terrain bundled was a pretty reasonable deal. I know the demand for the rulebook will be okay, but I think it will pale in comparison to the desire for the full boxed game.
Which just goes to show that it was asinine to bundle the rules with the terrain to begin with.
Anyone could have predicted that the box would have sold well to people just wanting terrain.
The terrain looks quite good.
The giant skull crane hook is a bit over the top but it all goes together nice.
I have been setting up 1'x1' hardboard to mount my terrain on so I have to plan how to match-up the walkways to join.
Assembly is pretty easy, I think the hard part is figuring out how to space-out cover/handrails where it makes sense and where to have areas people can possibly fall off.
Obviously objectives (depending on scenario) will need to be high up, why leave the ground otherwise unless we had "plunging fire" rules?
The rule book is very much Necromunda, that is not a complaint.
I love how you can field a terminator and he gets a 3+ save.... using 2d6.
There is a fair number of details for the various factions, I am quite happy for the flavor of it.
Unhappy how my favorite Black Templars get no mention.
Should have bought that second box... what was I thinking? $240 in one shot spent is probably what I was thinking.
I do have some added terrain that should look ace with it:
The goofy storm bolters we can do without however.
Galvanic Magnavent... $90 and for $30 more I could have another box set... wonder if the FLGS got through their 60 boxes...
I think you're thinking about this the wrong way. Shadow war is designed as a campaign game right? Which assumes you're going to be playing repeatedly with a core group of players over time. [...]
Put another way, treat Shadow War more like Necromunda and less like current-edition 40k.
think of it that way, some people don't have a group but have do go to events to play
like back in Necromunda were you drive some hours to get to 2 day event campaign (because Necromunda players were rare and wide spread here)
so widely accepted house rules would help to play your not official supported faction on different events no matter which group organise them
Well, if you're limited to one-off FLGS play than like any game you're unfortunately pretty much constrained to the published lists. I have my doubts about how fun that will be in the long run though.
All you guys worried about not getting rules for demons take heart! White Dwarf now has new rules in it, so if you use GW's social media to give feedback to them, it sounds like the type of thing they could put in a White Dwarf. And that goes for the Adeptus Mechanicus (not Skitaari) who also did not get specific rules.
Smellingsalts wrote: All you guys worried about not getting rules for demons take heart! White Dwarf now has new rules in it, so if you use GW's social media to give feedback to them, it sounds like the type of thing they could put in a White Dwarf. And that goes for the Adeptus Mechanicus (not Skitaari) who also did not get specific rules.
Problem is, with Cult Mechanicus, I can't see those battle servitors being able to climb ladders. Maybe some sort of addition to the Skitarii list for taking the Electro-priests?
I love how you can field a terminator and he gets a 3+ save.... using 2d6.
Between that and his resistance to pinning, terminators are unstoppable in this game... it's wicked! They can actually just walk through waves of enemy fire, straight out of the books.
Unhappy how my favorite Black Templars get no mention.
This was definitely an oversight. It's set on Armageddon for Pete's sake! They have a callout for special Wolf Scout rules but no Black Templars? Where's my mixed scout/power armour kill team?
Should have bought that second box... what was I thinking? $240 in one shot spent is probably what I was thinking.
Galvanic Magnavent... $90 and for $30 more I could have another box set... wonder if the FLGS got through their 60 boxes...
Right? The savings on the terrain alone were worth it, and I can always pawn off the extra scouts, rulebook and dice to some eager Dakkamites... I'll be scouring Southern Ontario tonight for another box, methinks...
Yeah...and not even that, the sticking to plastic kits is even more ridiculous. Eldar sound incredibly boring to play. I mean, drool in your porridge boring.
Elbows wrote: Yeah...and not even that, the sticking to plastic kits is even more ridiculous. Eldar sound incredibly boring to play. I mean, drool in your porridge boring.
Eh, it keeps it accessible. The plastics are much more widely available than finecast stuff is.
...which is why more of the Eldar range needs to move to plastic obviously!
After seeing how tough the Tyranids are, I'm wondering what it would look like if they were allowed to include the tiny stuff like gaunts or gargoyles.
People looking for inspiration (or just direct ports) may be well served seeking out a copy of this in eBay (or just the 2nd Ed Codex for their faction.)
May need tweaking for fairness, but will be a big source of info.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I feel something strange and unfamiliar in my heart.
Is this... hope?
Or should I have passed on ordering the Mile High Nachos?
Easy to confuse the two!
I have to say I'm impressed with this response; I was resigned to just having a digital copy of the basic rules, but the option for hard copy with all teams included is way more than I was expecting. I wouldn't be surprised if they get some sales for that from people who actually managed to get a copy anyway.
Azreal13 wrote: People looking for inspiration (or just direct ports) may be well served seeking out a copy of this in eBay (or just the 2nd Ed Codex for their faction.)
May need tweaking for fairness, but will be a big source of info.
Great idea, but make sure you get the army lists B&W booklet that came with Codex Imperialis. Points values, wargear options, etc are all in the booklet.
WIthout the booklet, Imperials is nice for ideas, but with it, you can pretty much just drop them right into your game.
I love how you can field a terminator and he gets a 3+ save.... using 2d6.
Between that and his resistance to pinning, terminators are unstoppable in this game... it's wicked! They can actually just walk through waves of enemy fire, straight out of the books.
Doesn't he also get a 5+ invul?
I like how they also have the Bounty special rule - killing one is worth a Prometheum cache by itself!
I've been thinking and I think these rules could make a good combat system for an RPG (well a simple one for people who can't be bothered learning Only War). Just give everybody 250 points to make their character and bolt on charisma, intelligence and some other things.
NivlacSupreme wrote: I've been thinking and I think these rules could make a good combat system for an RPG (well a simple one for people who can't be bothered learning Only War). Just give everybody 250 points to make their character and bolt on charisma, intelligence and some other things.
it'd be good for a Hero Quest kinda board game, but not an RPG.
NivlacSupreme wrote: I've been thinking and I think these rules could make a good combat system for an RPG (well a simple one for people who can't be bothered learning Only War). Just give everybody 250 points to make their character and bolt on charisma, intelligence and some other things.
it'd be good for a Hero Quest kinda board game, but not an RPG.
It wouldn't be particularly complex. Probably just 2 tables to roll on to give the impression of it being a game.
davou wrote: The rulebook was announced to be available digitally the same night that they sold out IIRC; that was what I was referring to
I've not seen this. Anybody got a link for those of us who didn't preorder weren't able to obtain a local copy?
It wasn't "announced", but rather various GW reps/social media accounts were talking about the digital team "looking into solutions--hopefully digital copies could be made available in as short as a week".
Around Saturday evening/Sunday morning--they removed those statements and replaced it with a vague "Keep an eye out and we'll do our best to ensure keeping everyone well-informed as to what we're going to do" kind of statement.
davou wrote: The rulebook was announced to be available digitally the same night that they sold out IIRC; that was what I was referring to
I've not seen this. Anybody got a link for those of us who didn't preorder weren't able to obtain a local copy?
I believe it was on Facebook and was removed.
The book will be available to pre-order on Saturday the 22nd of April.
We’re also making a digital edition of this new book, giving you yet another choice on how to get your copy, which will also be available to pre-order that same weekend.
Manchu wrote: For anyone just tuning in, here's the latest:
- GW will print the softcover rulebook for Shadow War: Armageddon
- pre-orders willbegin April 22
- the pre-order period will be longer than the usual 7 days
- this printing will include all of the lists released via PDF
- this printing will also include lists for Adeptus Sororitas and Inquisition
- the Sisters and Inq lists will also be available via WD - they will also be available as FREE downloads
- if you have the box set rulebook you will not miss anything by not getting this rulebook
- the second runrulebook will also include a photocopyable page of counters
- a digital version of the rules will also be available on April 22
- MSRP is not known
- whether this will be a limited release is not known
So yes - digital rulebook will be available April 22. Plus - page count confirmed at 200.
davou wrote: The rulebook was announced to be available digitally the same night that they sold outIIRC; that was what I was referring to
I've not seen this. Anybody got a link for those of us who didn't preorder weren't able to obtain a local copy?
I believe it was on Facebook and was removed.
The book will be available to pre-order on Saturday the 22nd of April.
We’re also making a digital edition of this new book, giving you yet another choice on how to get your copy, which will also be available to pre-order that same weekend.
I'm just baffled at the price disparity going on here..
Box:
7 sprue of terrain
2 kill teams
Rule book
£80
So let's say I want to get in on the action without the box... we'll be very generous and assume the separate rule book will be £25 (like recent AoS battletomes).
3 terrain boxes (8 sprues of terrain)
Rule book
£130
£130, at best!!! For the same contents (the missing kill teams, tokens etc easily cancel out the extra terrain sprue). What. The. Feth. What the actual feth! There just no way I'm paying £50 extra for the same contents. At least create a bundle so we can get the terrain for the same price as those lucky few who managed to get a box.
Starfarer wrote: They can take lasguns and laspistols, neither of which are in the Neophyte kit.
I even put links to the kit with the Lasguns in my post. C'mon man...
Sorry, I was on mobile and didn't notice those links.
Mymearan wrote: I'm just baffled at the price disparity going on here..
Box:
7 sprue of terrain
2 kill teams
Rule book
£80
So let's say I want to get in on the action without the box... we'll be very generous and assume the separate rule book will be £25 (like recent AoS battletomes).
3 terrain boxes (8 sprues of terrain)
Rule book
£130
£130, at best!!! For the same contents (the missing kill teams, tokens etc easily cancel out the extra terrain sprue). What. The. Feth. What the actual feth! There just no way I'm paying £50 extra for the same contents. At least create a bundle so we can get the terrain for the same price as those lucky few who managed to get a box.
At least the terrain will be available to get with online discounts. There were not many sellers offering copies of Shadow War at less than retail.
When you factor in a 25%-30% online discount, the set of 3 terrain pieces is about retail cost of the Shadow War box. Definitely not ideal, but not quite as drastic of a price disparity when factoring in an online discount.
Mymearan wrote: I'm just baffled at the price disparity going on here..
Box:
7 sprue of terrain
2 kill teams
Rule book
£80
So let's say I want to get in on the action without the box... we'll be very generous and assume the separate rule book will be £25 (like recent AoS battletomes).
3 terrain boxes (8 sprues of terrain)
Rule book
£130
£130, at best!!! For the same contents (the missing kill teams, tokens etc easily cancel out the extra terrain sprue). What. The. Feth. What the actual feth! There just no way I'm paying £50 extra for the same contents. At least create a bundle so we can get the terrain for the same price as those lucky few who managed to get a box.
I see your point, but ... limited bundles are that, limited bundles... I cry for having lost some of the Christmas Boxes for Age of Sigmar, for example, but isn't reasonable to just think that I'm entitled to have things at a discount.
Starfarer wrote: They can take lasguns and laspistols, neither of which are in the Neophyte kit.
I even put links to the kit with the Lasguns in my post. C'mon man...
Sorry, I was on mobile and didn't notice those links.
Mymearan wrote: I'm just baffled at the price disparity going on here..
Box:
7 sprue of terrain
2 kill teams
Rule book
£80
So let's say I want to get in on the action without the box... we'll be very generous and assume the separate rule book will be £25 (like recent AoS battletomes).
3 terrain boxes (8 sprues of terrain)
Rule book
£130
£130, at best!!! For the same contents (the missing kill teams, tokens etc easily cancel out the extra terrain sprue). What. The. Feth. What the actual feth! There just no way I'm paying £50 extra for the same contents. At least create a bundle so we can get the terrain for the same price as those lucky few who managed to get a box.
At least the terrain will be available to get with online discounts. There were not many sellers offering copies of Shadow War at less than retail.
When you factor in a 25%-30% online discount, the set of 3 terrain pieces is about retail cost of the Shadow War box. Definitely not ideal, but not quite as drastic of a price disparity when factoring in an online discount.
Maybe in the US then. In Europe my FLGS had 10% discount on the box, and max online discount you'll find is around 15% for the terrain.
Manchu wrote: Gentlemen, please feel free to continue the debate about whether GW does or does not do market research in another thread in the General Discussion sub-forum.
For anyone just tuning in, here's the latest:
- GW will print the softcover rulebook for Shadow War: Armageddon
- pre-orders willbegin April 22
- the pre-order period will be longer than the usual 7 days
- this printing will include all of the lists released via PDF
- this printing will also include lists for Adeptus Sororitas and Inquisition
- the Sisters and Inq lists will also be available via WD - they will also be available as FREE downloads
- if you have the box set rulebook you will not miss anything by not getting this rulebook
- the second runrulebook will also include a photocopyable page of counters
- a digital version of the rules will also be available on April 22
- MSRP is not known
- whether this will be a limited release is not known
This makes me happy. The terrain pricing..not so much but I've got so much Mantic terrain and MDF stuff, I will just have to shrug it off. If they do a bundle of JUST the rules and terrain for any kind of discount that would be crazy good. I hope the counters will be available as a PDF as well. I've got the resources to make that work but really don't want to scan and reformat from a hard copy if a clean source file will be just as easy to provide.
Starfarer wrote: They can take lasguns and laspistols, neither of which are in the Neophyte kit.
I even put links to the kit with the Lasguns in my post. C'mon man...
Sorry, I was on mobile and didn't notice those links.
Mymearan wrote: I'm just baffled at the price disparity going on here..
Box:
7 sprue of terrain
2 kill teams
Rule book
£80
So let's say I want to get in on the action without the box... we'll be very generous and assume the separate rule book will be £25 (like recent AoS battletomes).
3 terrain boxes (8 sprues of terrain)
Rule book
£130
£130, at best!!! For the same contents (the missing kill teams, tokens etc easily cancel out the extra terrain sprue). What. The. Feth. What the actual feth! There just no way I'm paying £50 extra for the same contents. At least create a bundle so we can get the terrain for the same price as those lucky few who managed to get a box.
At least the terrain will be available to get with online discounts. There were not many sellers offering copies of Shadow War at less than retail.
When you factor in a 25%-30% online discount, the set of 3 terrain pieces is about retail cost of the Shadow War box. Definitely not ideal, but not quite as drastic of a price disparity when factoring in an online discount.
Maybe in the US then. In Europe my FLGS had 10% discount on the box, and max online discount you'll find is around 15% for the terrain.
Keep in mind there were rumors of new terrain bundles for holiday 2017 leaked awhile back. It's quite possible this new stuff will get some sort of bundle for that.
Either way, building a table with this terrain was going to be very expensive even if using the SW box sets. I have 2 boxes of the terrain and I don't think it would cover much more than 2x2 section, and that's without adding height. I feel like this stuff will work well among a mix of other stuff, including homemade items. I used lots of poster tubes and other stuff(you can check my gallery for pics) and will probably have to incorporate other items with these sets to get the most mileage out of them. I can't imagine how much it would cost to do a full 4x4 table with these alone.
davou wrote: The rulebook was announced to be available digitally the same night that they sold out IIRC; that was what I was referring to
I've not seen this. Anybody got a link for those of us who didn't preorder weren't able to obtain a local copy?
The book will be available to pre-order on Saturday the 22nd of April.
We’re also making a digital edition of this new book, giving you yet another choice on how to get your copy, which will also be available to pre-order that same weekend.
Mymearan wrote: I'm just baffled at the price disparity going on here..
Box:
7 sprue of terrain
2 kill teams
Rule book
£80
So let's say I want to get in on the action without the box... we'll be very generous and assume the separate rule book will be £25 (like recent AoS battletomes).
3 terrain boxes (8 sprues of terrain)
Rule book
£130
You do get 8 sprues of terrain in the box. It is not quite the same 8 sprues from the 3 boxes on pre-order, SWA has an extra sprue of the large octagonal platform instead of the extra double thin chimney srpue you'd get buying separate.
Smellingsalts wrote: All you guys worried about not getting rules for demons take heart! White Dwarf now has new rules in it, so if you use GW's social media to give feedback to them, it sounds like the type of thing they could put in a White Dwarf. And that goes for the Adeptus Mechanicus (not Skitaari) who also did not get specific rules.
Problem is, with Cult Mechanicus, I can't see those battle servitors being able to climb ladders. Maybe some sort of addition to the Skitarii list for taking the Electro-priests?
If they do, and I can't turn the scenery into massive Tesla Coils, is there any point?
I wonder why they didn't think to make a digital app for tracking your roster. That would have been really nice - especially it came with a built-in sound bank ("For the emperor!!" <<DakkaDakka>>. "WAAAAAGH"
A perfectly good pun... wasted. Void Shield Generator / avoiding...
I will go back to my regularly scheduled musings.
I plan on putting together some of the SWA terrain tonight and see how it goes, gotta figure out how to anchor it well to hardboard and to get them to line-up with each other.
A square may be in order.
It's nice we're going to get an expanded rulebook and that sisters will be thrown into the mix, but I have to ask...
As quickly as they are making this extracontent available, have they bothered to playtest any of it or is it the usual "eh, looks good enough, call it a day" we generally see from them?
Stormonu wrote: It's nice we're going to get an expanded rulebook and that sisters will be thrown into the mix, but I have to ask...
As quickly as they are making this extracontent available, have they bothered to playtest any of it or is it the usual "eh, looks good enough, call it a day" we generally see from them?
They would probably have to reference heavily any 2nd edition publications they have and have to wing-it for what was not around then.
Maybe use the Squat codex for Necrons!
I would bet that the Sisters and Inq lists were prepared at the same time as the ones not included in the box set rulebook and were meant to be printed in the May WD, which I believe they will still be. (It's just that in this case, announcing the existence of the lists beforehand was a good move to emphasize that GW is listening.) So I bet they had the same amount of playtesting as CSM, Wyches, etc. I make no guess as to how much that was, however.
Now I'm really looking forward to the end-of-year terrain bundle. Being able to mix in 3 Void generators to this kinda terrain will look ace.
Stormonu wrote: I wonder why they didn't think to make a digital app for tracking your roster. That would have been really nice - especially it came with a built-in sound bank ("For the emperor!!" <<DakkaDakka>>. "WAAAAAGH"
Because they would have charged you for extra Kill Teams.
But no "Codex", despite (many, unfulfilled) promises.
It's not a full codex, but there are enough squat profiles in 2nd edition "Codex Imperialis" (and the necessary accompanying army lists booklet) to work out a squad warband.
Talizvar wrote: They would probably have to reference heavily any 2nd edition publications they have and have to wing-it for what was not around then.
Maybe use the Squat codex for Necrons!
Necrons had rules in 2nd edition. They were pretty nasty, just somewhat limited for options.
You can see what's in the black book (the small multi-codex which came in the 2nd edition starter box), and all of the codices, broken down, etc. The black book is included in a downloadable format.
MLaw wrote: I'm confused.. why does 2nd ed keep coming up? I have loads of it but I don't see how it's applicable (I am sure I missed something)
Necromunda is just second edition 40k with a bit more granularity for individual miniature actions, weapon reliability, varied "Down" statuses and a campaign system. Virtually everything in second edition could be added to Necromunda by multiplying it's points value by a set amount (I forget the factor).
Shadow War is a variant/derrivative of Necromunda so presumeably 2nd edition stats would be transferrable to Shadow War with little effort.
I've got every 2nd edition codex so hopefully when I get Shadow War I'll have new uses for them.
MLaw wrote: I'm confused.. why does 2nd ed keep coming up? I have loads of it but I don't see how it's applicable (I am sure I missed something)
Necromunda is just second edition 40k with a bit more granularity for individual miniature actions, weapon reliability, varied "Down" statuses and a campaign system. Virtually everything in second edition could be added to Necromunda by multiplying it's points value by a set amount (I forget the factor).
Shadow War is a variant/derrivative of Necromunda so presumeably 2nd edition stats would be transferrable to Shadow War with little effort.
I've got every 2nd edition codex so hopefully when I get Shadow War I'll have new uses for them.
Neato.. is there a separate topic somewhere? It would be nice to see all of this discussed in a place where it's one stream of thought instead of small pepperings in a GW news story which is like trying to find needles in stacks of needles..
I don't know how much people will get out of the 2nd ed. stuff - since the stats and weapons are actually not the same. They're mostly different (even stats for many of the models).
You could use the rules from SWA and just run everything as 2nd ed. stats, but I don't know how well you can combine the two.
Up till recently most of the basic troop stats were the same from 2nd up till now (characters and monsters were vastly different though). Now, for some reason Marine Scouts move 5" (wtf?) and Eldar Guardians and Scouts have BS/WS4 which is wrong and doesn't work with the fluff at all.
Weapon ranges are different, as well as save modifiers etc. are different on a lot of weapons.
Ok, I know to some this is bad-form, but at 113 pages, sifting through to get a concise answer is all but impossible at this point, so patience please!
Why is this game being regarded as a 'disaster' in some circles? I gather it was sold out almost immediately which is aggravating, but what else is 'wrong' here?
MajorTom11 wrote: Ok, I know to some this is bad-form, but at 113 pages, sifting through to get a concise answer is all but impossible at this point, so patience please!
Why is this game being regarded as a 'disaster' in some circles? I gather it was sold out almost immediately which is aggravating, but what else is 'wrong' here?
It was a disaster for all the people who missed out on the limited release of the box set, there was A LOT more demand then stock available, people missed out and were sad
Nothing is wrong game is amazing fun
So full of nostalgia while being new in the tactics used
Yeah, nothing wrong with the game (well, other that it not going far enough - the campaign aspect of it could have been expanded far more than it is, but that's pretty typical of GW's recent big box release, always walking up to greatness but never stepping over that line).
MajorTom11 wrote: Why is this game being regarded as a 'disaster' in some circles?
Never fear, crisis averted! The rulebook was originally OOP along with the box set. Far from anything being wrong with the game, the prospective disaster was players not being able to get it apart from digitally. But an expanded softcover will be available for pre-order on April 22.
MajorTom11 wrote: Why is this game being regarded as a 'disaster' in some circles?
Never fear, crisis averted! The rulebook was originally OOP along with the box set. Far from anything being wrong with the game, the prospective disaster was players not being able to get it apart from digitally. But an expanded softcover will be available for pre-order on April 22.
Glad they've gone this way ultimately. As nice a deal as the limited bundle was, I have loads of Orks and Space Marines. Getting the terrain would've been nice but I have a TON of Cities of Death terrain still on sprue along with Deadzone terrain etc.. and really Armorcast has plenty of stopgap terrain that is less grimdark versions of everything on those sprues.
Manchu wrote: I would bet that the Sisters and Inq lists were prepared at the same time as the ones not included in the box set rulebook and were meant to be printed in the May WD, which I believe they will still be. (It's just that in this case, announcing the existence of the lists beforehand was a good move to emphasize that GW is listening.) So I bet they had the same amount of playtesting as CSM, Wyches, etc. I make no guess as to how much that was, however.
They likely don't need to test sisters or inqusitor. there isnt a whole lot of choices for gw to make in regards to which units are most balanced for sisters or inquisitors. So their decisions are limited. And there is plenty of 2nd ed necromunda rules for them to use as basis along with what they have already done with other army wpn choices. It's likely just organizing it and they are done.
But man how I wish gw does an inqusitor box game with a bunch of plastic inquisition models at 40k scale.
MajorTom11 wrote: Ok, I know to some this is bad-form, but at 113 pages, sifting through to get a concise answer is all but impossible at this point, so patience please!
Why is this game being regarded as a 'disaster' in some circles? I gather it was sold out almost immediately which is aggravating, but what else is 'wrong' here?
It sold out in record time which was admittedly annoying, basically moreso because they weren't clear enough prior to preorder that it was a limited release.
So from Saturday to Wednesday people fumed about it and worked themselves up, as is typical with GW releases, then Wednesday GW informed people rules and new factions would be available separately. People doubted this and accused GW of all sorts of things, as is typical with GW releases. Then GW announced Sunday that physical and digital rulebooks would be made available and confirmed new faction rules would be added as well. Most people have been satisfied since that announcement, but a few folks still have chip firmly lodged in shoulder.
As far as the game goes it is by all accounts great, and not surprising considering it's a port of Necromunda rules with simplified campaign and experience system. However, since all basic rules are unchanged, using the normal Necromunda experience and campaign system is incredibly easy, and those rules are free online already. Very little to be upset about by this, and it has a ton of potential for fans to run with it, much like what has already been done in Inquisimunda circles for quite awhile now.
So basically, nearly all good news, just some bungled messaging in the initial release, and it's been resolved in basically one week. Pretty damn quick response time from GW all things considered.
Inquisitor Kallus wrote: I have been gathering some suitable odds and ends for a while to start a manufactorum/hive board
Well done, man. That's an impressive collection of containers. The Pegasus Chemical Plant kit is great for detailing out random bottles and containers like that.
But man how I wish gw does an inqusitor box game with a bunch of plastic inquisition models at 40k scale.
That would be amazing, and a few years ago there was a rumor an Inquisitor game was coming, but that never panned out. Seeing the quality of Inquisitor Greyfax shows GW could do amazing things with Inquisition models in plastic.
Necromunda is just second edition 40k with a bit more granularity for individual miniature actions, weapon reliability, varied "Down" statuses and a campaign system. Virtually everything in second edition could be added to Necromunda by multiplying it's points value by a set amount (I forget the factor).
The factor was 10x, although Marines were 30 points then.
Yep, roughly x10. The Outlanders book has most decent 40K models at around 250-400 points or "rating" per model. A single Space Marine could be dangerously good against gangers (again, kind of what made Necromunda a good setting for novel-esque engagements).
But man how I wish gw does an inqusitor box game with a bunch of plastic inquisition models at 40k scale.
That would be amazing, and a few years ago there was a rumor an Inquisitor game was coming, but that never panned out. Seeing the quality of Inquisitor Greyfax shows GW could do amazing things with Inquisition models in plastic.
The problem is that Inquisitors done properly could never really function with a single boxed set, or limited to that. The entire point of Inquisitors is that each one is unique and esoteric. An Inquisitor boxed set would be almost as bad as all of the mediocre sigmarine conversions out there. A box of expanded Imperial agent models would be nice as a starting point, but I wouldn't want anything dedicated specifically to Inquisitors themselves.
The problem is that Inquisitors done properly could never really function with a single boxed set, or limited to that. The entire point of Inquisitors is that each one is unique and esoteric. An Inquisitor boxed set would be almost as bad as all of the mediocre sigmarine conversions out there. A box of expanded Imperial agent models would be nice as a starting point, but I wouldn't want anything dedicated specifically to Inquisitors themselves.
$10 says the Inquisitor KT is gonna be just that a Kill team..
So a inquisitorial Strike force consisting of Storm troopers
Not the inquisimunda team some people are hoping for.. for that there is Inquisimunda on yaktribe =D
But man how I wish gw does an inqusitor box game with a bunch of plastic inquisition models at 40k scale.
That would be amazing, and a few years ago there was a rumor an Inquisitor game was coming, but that never panned out. Seeing the quality of Inquisitor Greyfax shows GW could do amazing things with Inquisition models in plastic.
The problem is that Inquisitors done properly could never really function with a single boxed set, or limited to that. The entire point of Inquisitors is that each one is unique and esoteric. An Inquisitor boxed set would be almost as bad as all of the mediocre sigmarine conversions out there. A box of expanded Imperial agent models would be nice as a starting point, but I wouldn't want anything dedicated specifically to Inquisitors themselves.
I was more talking about a board game release focusing on inquisitors and their warbands. That was the rumor from a few years ago anyway. A box game with 3 or 4 different inquisitors and a bunch of acolytes and other henchmen would be cool, but I'm not holding out any hope for that.
Anyone played Tyranids yet? Their stats look really, really good for this game, and I'm dying to try them out (miniatures are buried away in storage at the moment...)
Also, why didn't they include Lictors instead of a Tyranid Warrior Prime as a special agent?
Stormonu wrote: Anyone played Tyranids yet? Their stats look really, really good for this game, and I'm dying to try them out (miniatures are buried away in storage at the moment...)
Also, why didn't they include Lictors instead of a Tyranid Warrior Prime as a special agent?
Mates Orks got dunked by them yesterday apparently..
And why not lictors..
because they decided not to.. (But really I am gonna use a lictor model instead of a ravener)
Stormonu wrote: Also, why didn't they include Lictors instead of a Tyranid Warrior Prime as a special agent?
When's the last time you saw a plastic Lictor?
Fafnir wrote: The problem is that Inquisitors done properly could never really function with a single boxed set, or limited to that. The entire point of Inquisitors is that each one is unique and esoteric. An Inquisitor boxed set would be almost as bad as all of the mediocre sigmarine conversions out there. A box of expanded Imperial agent models would be nice as a starting point, but I wouldn't want anything dedicated specifically to Inquisitors themselves.
I would kill for a modular Inquisition style box that allowed you to build a pair (one male, one female) of typical Inquisitors. Hell, one per Ordo would be even better.
Inquisitorial Killteams aren't just stormtroopers and the IG veteran kill team can already be built as storm troopers so that's a great deal of redundancy.
I think the Inquisition Killteam will simply be rule that reorganize the old models to fit the game's template for teams... with certain henchmen types being special operatives and others being specific member types... with ordo dictating which henchmen types maybe taken and the respective skill progression table... with the great majority of models being inquisitorial acolytes.
IF GW ever gets around to updating Inquisition with new models... I just imagine they'd make a Inquisitor and henchmen kit for each ordo.
Stormonu wrote: Anyone played Tyranids yet? Their stats look really, really good for this game, and I'm dying to try them out (miniatures are buried away in storage at the moment...)
Also, why didn't they include Lictors instead of a Tyranid Warrior Prime as a special agent?
I've been playing a squad of Tyranid Warriors and I've steam rolled Scouts and Orks with it. Lots of shots, lots of attacks, decent save with extended carapace, good ranged weapons. Like the other elite low model count teams, if you lose a member there is a very real chance you will be unable to replace them. It's strange for Nids but their weakness is their limited numbers. They will get surrounded, shot, and pinned if you don't handle their movement right.
I think the Lictor are too powerful for a regular game. However it'd be fun to have scenario rules for one model kill teams... Lictor, Assassin, a crisis suit... Marbo...
I wonder if the Inquisistion will be restricted to what is under that label on the GW website or if it would include models from the IG range, they don't appear to sell servo skulls that I can see. The Scion command box has one though, if they use this box it might open up what weapons they have access to.
Just looking at the range I could see; inquisitor as leader, warrior acolyte as new recruit, crusader/ missionary as troopers. Leaving Servitors, death cult assassins and arco-flagellants as options for specialists.
H.B.M.C. wrote:
I would kill for a modular Inquisition style box that allowed you to build a pair (one male, one female) of typical Inquisitors. Hell, one per Ordo would be even better.
The only way I would consider an Inquisition style box a success would be if the aforementioned bodies in their basic form were extremely poseable, modular and easy to convert, essentially functioning as a moddable chassis for conversion. GW might not like conversions much these days, but if there's one faction that's been built on it, it's the freaking Inquisition.
Dravis wrote:I wonder if the Inquisistion will be restricted to what is under that label on the GW website or if it would include models from the IG range, they don't appear to sell servo skulls that I can see. The Scion command box has one though, if they use this box it might open up what weapons they have access to.
Just looking at the range I could see; inquisitor as leader, warrior acolyte as new recruit, crusader/ missionary as troopers. Leaving Servitors, death cult assassins and arco-flagellants as options for specialists.
God dammit, just give me Daemonhosts in some way, shape, or form.
aka_mythos wrote: Unfortunately I bet if we ever get updated Inquisition they'll be a collection of detailed monopose character models.
Which is completely fine IMO. If you want fully individualised Inquisitors and retinues there's a whole sub-category of the hobby that deals with that exclusively... you don't need GW to tell you which bits to use. I'll shamelessly plug the Inquisitorium FB group here for everyone who's interested
God dammit, just give me Daemonhosts in some way, shape, or form.
Oh yeah, forgot about them, I would guess special operative along with Jokaero?
Would be pretty thematic, it's not like an Inquisitor is going to drag along his pet Daemonhost to every social occasion.
Might get a bit awkward.
The almost complete lack of any psychic powers up to this point would seem to indicate that Deamonhosts and a Deamon KillTeam in general might be a step beyond the scope of this game as it seems to be being set out so I wouldn't get too hopefuls for those.
My bet is on an inquisitors 2ic as the leader and a mix of warrior types with a range of weapons and armours to make anything from a Crusader to an assassin to a Scion. Guess at Operatives; Savant, Arbites and a Marine of some kind...or perhaps access to all Spec Ops from other groups, that would be very thematic.
notprop wrote: The almost complete lack of any psychic powers up to this point would seem to indicate that Deamonhosts and a Deamon KillTeam in general might be a step beyond the scope of this game as it seems to be being set out so I wouldn't get too hopefuls for those.
My bet is on an inquisitors 2ic as the leader and a mix of warrior types with a range of weapons and armours to make anything from a Crusader to an assassin to a Scion. Guess at Operatives; Savant, Arbites and a Marine of some kind...or perhaps access to all Spec Ops from other groups, that would be very thematic.
Having access to all spec ops would be very interesting and characterful. Can't imagine the inquisition will have a ton of options. But maybe their spec op options will make up for that?
I think daemons would be better as spec ops or summoned individuals.
notprop wrote: The almost complete lack of any psychic powers up to this point would seem to indicate that Deamonhosts and a Deamon KillTeam in general might be a step beyond the scope of this game as it seems to be being set out so I wouldn't get too hopefuls for those.
My bet is on an inquisitors 2ic as the leader and a mix of warrior types with a range of weapons and armours to make anything from a Crusader to an assassin to a Scion. Guess at Operatives; Savant, Arbites and a Marine of some kind...or perhaps access to all Spec Ops from other groups, that would be very thematic.
Or they might use the Chamber Militant so you have a Grey Knight, Deathwatch Veteran and Sororitas veteran as Spc ops?
I'd think they'd do something for Inquisition like:
Leader: Interrogator
Trooper: Veteran Acolyte (same stats as a normal acolyte, but when you recruit one you get to pick what "type" of acolyte they are from 3-5ish options. You could have Crusader where they get +1 WS and access to a 5+ invuln shield, Warrior where they get +1 BS, Missionary where they get frenzy, and maybe a couple others). This could cover things like Crusaders, Priests, Guard Vets, Arbites, etc.
New Recruit: Acolyte (just a normal acolyte)
Specialists: Acolytes with special weapons/ Death Cult Assassins
For spec ops they could do: Daemonhost, Psyker, Jokaero Plus a Battle Sister, The Deathwatch Marine, and a Grey Knight depending on the Ordo you pick.
Then just give them a big armory with everything from Autopistols to hellguns, and flak to power armor, and I think a list like this would cover most of your options.
The Inquisition kill team rules I was working on had Inquisitor, Acolyte, Henchman and Sharpshooter as the main choices, with Ordos determining choice of equipment and psychic powers (which were purchased just like equipment). Then I had Jokaero, Daemonhosts and Sanctioned Psykers for special operatives, but with a rule that you could hire special operatives from any Imperial list. Since I also did an Ecclesiarchy kill team, this let them get hold of Crusaders, Death Cultists and Arco-flagellants.
I'm interested to see how close I was to the real version!
That would be the ideal situation, yes.
Perhaps the kill teams requiring a plastic kits was only for the initial release, as part of the in store support for indi's and that later releases will broaden to GW product not readily available through such stores.
puree wrote: You do get 8 sprues of terrain in the box. It is not quite the same 8 sprues from the 3 boxes on pre-order, SWA has an extra sprue of the large octagonal platform instead of the extra double thin chimney srpue you'd get buying separate.
Look through the assembly instructions, as B3 (I think it is) is used elsewhere, and B4 (without the fan) is in with the B3 and B4 for the same platform.
That same sprue is used in the Ferratonic Furnace and the Galvanic Magnavent kits.
Stormonu wrote: Anyone played Tyranids yet? Their stats look really, really good for this game, and I'm dying to try them out (miniatures are buried away in storage at the moment...)
Also, why didn't they include Lictors instead of a Tyranid Warrior Prime as a special agent?
Probably because the old 2nd edition rules for lictors were very powerful.
They had overall far better stats than a tyranid warrior.
Could spot hidden units at twice it's initiative
Natural -1 to hit modifier
Had extra rules for hiding so even units within initiative distance couldn't find it or shoot it.
An unmodifiable saving throw of 5+, even against things like vortex grenades
Caused fear
Had flesh hooks style gun to drag units towards it.
immune to any leadership test
Had infiltration
Was poisonous so could further wound multi-wound models.
They could take one bio-morph upgrade
Stormonu wrote: Anyone played Tyranids yet? Their stats look really, really good for this game, and I'm dying to try them out (miniatures are buried away in storage at the moment...)
Also, why didn't they include Lictors instead of a Tyranid Warrior Prime as a special agent?
Probably because the old 2nd edition rules for lictors were very powerful.
They had overall far better stats than a tyranid warrior.
Could spot hidden units at twice it's initiative
Natural -1 to hit modifier
Had extra rules for hiding so even units within initiative distance couldn't find it or shoot it.
An unmodifiable saving throw of 5+, even against things like vortex grenades
Caused fear
Had flesh hooks style gun to drag units towards it.
immune to any leadership test
Had infiltration
Was poisonous so could further wound multi-wound models.
They could take one bio-morph upgrade
Basically Lictors were amazing in the old rules.
Shadow war mainly uses current w40k stats, could them a bunch of special rules though.
I'd use rules similar to the solitare. The real reason is no plastic kit.
Skinnereal wrote: Look through the assembly instructions, as B3 (I think it is) is used elsewhere, and B4 (without the fan) is in with the B3 and B4 for the same platform. That same sprue is used in the Ferratonic Furnace and the Galvanic Magnavent kits.
I know what they're from, but the Shadow War building sprues are there to build one specific building. It has it's own Shadow War-branded instruction book, rather than just a generic instruction book for this type of terrain. That's why you get the sprues you get.
Zwan1One wrote: I mean they should have a lot of options. But I think gw will streamline because they don't have any plastic kits and 'no model, no rule'.
puree wrote: You do get 8 sprues of terrain in the box. It is not quite the same 8 sprues from the 3 boxes on pre-order, SWA has an extra sprue of the large octagonal platform instead of the extra double thin chimney srpue you'd get buying separate.
Look through the assembly instructions, as B3 (I think it is) is used elsewhere, and B4 (without the fan) is in with the B3 and B4 for the same platform.
That same sprue is used in the Ferratonic Furnace and the Galvanic Magnavent kits.
No that sprue is not in the Galvanic Magnavent.
Yes you get two of that sprue. That sprue in the individual boxes is only available in the feratonic furnace. So the box gives you an extra one. But if you had bought all 3 boxes of individual terrain you would have 2 sprues of the tall thin chimney, when you only get 1 in the box. So the box has given you 8 sprues (as you would get buying 3 boxes separate), but it has swapped the out a chimney one for an extra platform one.
Zwan1One wrote: I mean they should have a lot of options. But I think gw will streamline because they don't have any plastic kits and 'no model, no rule'.
FIFY.
Yeah there's that. On the GW website they have:
Basic Inquisitors
Death cult assassins
Crusaders
Arch flagellants
Priests/missionary
Acolytes
Servitor
Jokaero
They'll need to add some kind of troop in there. Maybe Scions?
Will be interesting how they fit everything into leader, specialist and troop groupings.
puree wrote: You do get 8 sprues of terrain in the box. It is not quite the same 8 sprues from the 3 boxes on pre-order, SWA has an extra sprue of the large octagonal platform instead of the extra double thin chimney srpue you'd get buying separate.
Look through the assembly instructions, as B3 (I think it is) is used elsewhere, and B4 (without the fan) is in with the B3 and B4 for the same platform.
That same sprue is used in the Ferratonic Furnace and the Galvanic Magnavent kits.
No that sprue is not in the Galvanic Magnavent.
Yes you get two of that sprue. That sprue in the individual boxes is only available in the feratonic furnace. So the box gives you an extra one. But if you had bought all 3 boxes of individual terrain you would have 2 sprues of the tall thin chimney, when you only get 1 in the box. So the box has given you 8 sprues (as you would get buying 3 boxes separate), but it has swapped the out a chimney one for an extra platform one.
Sounds like the box is even better than buying the three boxes, since more platforms would be more useful for most I bet.
MajorTom11 wrote: Why is this game being regarded as a 'disaster' in some circles? I gather it was sold out almost immediately which is aggravating, but what else is 'wrong' here?
Because they produced FAR too few copies to meet demand, which was massive... which is a disastrous marketing strategy as it just results in loads of money going to scalpers instead of Games Workshop. And thus diminishes the company's profit margin by an enormous amount.
MajorTom11 wrote: Why is this game being regarded as a 'disaster' in some circles? I gather it was sold out almost immediately which is aggravating, but what else is 'wrong' here?
Because they produced FAR too few copies to meet demand, which was massive... which is a disastrous marketing strategy as it just results in loads of money going to scalpers instead of Games Workshop. And thus diminishes the company's profit margin by an enormous amount.
Sort of, the scalper buys with the sole intent to resell. So there is only one true customer in that instance, the scalper's end customer. GW would not have sold two copies, they still would have sold one.
"Enormous amount" - take it you've got some numbers then
I get people are salty but all we know is there was an amount of unfulfilled demand. We've got little idea what the end result of that is, of what the thought process \ analysis was, etc. Load of armchair investors shittalking based on pure speculation
If the rules were the only bit actually missing, why didn't they think to put them on Black Library?
The scenery isn't really new, and the models certainly aren't, so ebook rules would have saved this whole issue.
I got all the non-platform bits together last night.
I am happy to report they are a minimal number of parts and are very modular so I expect a few kits would be impressive.
The fit is awesome, zero gaps I could see when gluing, a bit fussy with the 4-part round objects but a couple elastics did a good job.
My only concern is committing to a set configuration for the platforms and how the piping/equipment bits will be attached.
Still not sure about using that enormous skull hook... it begs the question "what on earth do they use it for?".
I am now trying to figure out how to integrate this with the prior Necromunda terrain bulkheads (using plastic card rather than the printed paper card).
Turns out the new terrain heights are a bit off from the old (~6 3/4" for a double-stack of old bulkheads vs new pillars vs 5 3/4").
Zwan1One wrote: Can't imagine the inquisition will have a ton of options.
Wut?
I mean they should have a lot of options. But I think gw will streamline it for simplicity.
I think the number of options depends on how their team list is organized. Typically Inquisition henchmen squads have been characterized by their specialized diversity. If GW represents all of those henchmen types, the large number member types to choose from maybe the extent of their options. Alternatively these Killteams could have slightly more generic henchmen types that you construct with upgrades to represent all the typical henchmen types; at that point the equipment dictates the diversity.
I think some might be disappointed with the Inquisition list. No other faction's list includes a captain level character, so I don't think Inquisition Killteams will necessarily have an Inquisitor. I think an Inquisitor from each Ordo could well be the special operatives for this team.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: So, who else is hassling GW to do more and more with this scale of game?
I am. I'd love to get it to the stage where we can run Rogue Trader type forces (era and background) - so perhaps your crew might contain a Kroot, an Eldar Corsair, couple of Bloodaxes etc.
Really open it up, let us explore the galaxy in a smaller, more intimate environment - especially as sadly the FFG roleplay books are no longer in production.
Imagine a head-honcho Rogue Trader squabbling over derelict space craft with his peers, all sending in their own explortator teams etc.
"Open Play". Play it "unbounded".
As I said in another post, the rules are pretty easy to homebrew for doing this kind of thing. I hope GW sees a financial opportunity here, *and* that they have a gateway game to get people into the hobby which they've lacked for some time.
WD editor is joining the Twitch on Thursday, had no idea this will be 40 years of WD. Hope we get a little sneak peak of what's to come and hope it's a bit 'rotten.'
Well - for terrain, I bought two box sets plus two Galvanic Magnavents. I also have a set of Aegis Defense Line, a set of Munitorum Armored Containers, and two sets of Prometheum Relay Pipes. I'd like to get a set of Haemotope Reactors and maybe a Void Shield Generator to round it all off. I figure this should be enough to fill up a 4x4 mat. I'd still like a separate ladder sprue.
Manchu wrote: Well - for terrain, I bought two box sets plus two Galvanic Magnavents. I also have a set of Aegis Defense Line, a set of Munitorum Armored Containers, and two sets of Prometheum Relay Pipes. I'd like to get a set of Haemotope Reactors and maybe a Void Shield Generator to round it all off. I figure this should be enough to fill up a 4x4 mat. I'd still like a separate ladder sprue.
Do you have access to any of the ladders from the last wave of modular plastics? (Imperial Sector etc) Do they fit?
Mr_Rose wrote: Here's an idea for the terrain masters at GW: use the new sector mechanicus kits to recreate the Deathwatch Overkill scenario(s) in 3D.
That is a great homebrew idea and something I'd like to try so long as the missions do not hinge on arrangement of terrain as a I plan to glue the terrain together and paint it.
Manchu wrote: Well - for terrain, I bought two box sets plus two Galvanic Magnavents. I also have a set of Aegis Defense Line, a set of Munitorum Armored Containers, and two sets of Prometheum Relay Pipes. I'd like to get a set of Haemotope Reactors and maybe a Void Shield Generator to round it all off. I figure this should be enough to fill up a 4x4 mat. I'd still like a separate ladder sprue.
Sounds like you have a pretty similar setup to me in mind. I am probably going to get another Magnavent and Furnace, to go along with the box. I have a set of pipes, reactors, two manufactorums, some craters, an Aegis, and a FAT Mat that looks like a manufacturing district. I am aiming to make my terrain look like a ruined Forge World.
Oggthrok wrote: Alas, I called my FLGS to see if my pre-order was in, and was informed they had not received enough to fulfil the Shadow War preorders. So, now I'm one of the rest of the grumpy kids, sad because I'm missing out.
At the very least, I'm hoping GW takes from this just how badly pent up 40k fans are for a skirmish size game. I didn't even realize I wanted such a thing, but I tried to buy two, so I guess I did.
It's worth mentioning, as appealing as this box set was, have you noticed how unappealing the thought of buying the terrain separately and getting the rules from an Ebook is? I'm not sure why, but doing that, versus the $130 box set, just feels like a let down. I think on some level, I just want Shadow War to be a forever thing, to lure in new players, even though in my own life I really don't need marine scouts or Orks...
I'd gladly buy a hard copy of the book, I love ebooks for novels but for gaming which involves lots of flicking back and forth I still prefer hard copies. Got plenty of scouts and Orks and the terrain, it's not horrible but its nothing I need.
Short story even shorter I would happily do without everything but the book.
It's worth checking your local GW for spare tokens, incidentally. They're giving them out free if you buy a box for a kill team - I picked up some neophyte hybrids yesterday and got some.
zanzibarthefirst wrote: Not sure how significant this is but on the box my shadow war was delivered in it states produced January 2017 and carton number 3834 of 4002
Probably not very. 4000 boxes would only be 10 per GW store, ignoring all internet and FLGS orders. Doubt they only made 4000.
zanzibarthefirst wrote: Not sure how significant this is but on the box my shadow war was delivered in it states produced January 2017 and carton number 3834 of 4002
Probably not very. 4000 boxes would only be 10 per GW store, ignoring all internet and FLGS orders. Doubt they only made 4000.
zanzibarthefirst wrote: Not sure how significant this is but on the box my shadow war was delivered in it states produced January 2017 and carton number 3834 of 4002
Probably not very. 4000 boxes would only be 10 per GW store, ignoring all internet and FLGS orders. Doubt they only made 4000.
zanzibarthefirst wrote: Not sure how significant this is but on the box my shadow war was delivered in it states produced January 2017 and carton number 3834 of 4002
Probably not very. 4000 boxes would only be 10 per GW store, ignoring all internet and FLGS orders. Doubt they only made 4000.
Yeah...
My local GW store had 4 copies.
Mine had a grand total of one.
I think mine had 3 and those were all for display.
Heh, my FLGS has a copy of SWA sitting on the shelf. I have half a mind to pick it up. It would have been a lot more exciting of a find if they hadn't announced the book coming separately (and rendering the book in the box obsolete).
casvalremdeikun wrote: Heh, my FLGS has a copy of SWA sitting on the shelf. I have half a mind to pick it up. It would have been a lot more exciting of a find if they hadn't announced the book coming separately (and rendering the book in the box obsolete).
The only thing different is that the upcoming book will have the downloadable lists, in physical print.
zanzibarthefirst wrote: Not sure how significant this is but on the box my shadow war was delivered in it states produced January 2017 and carton number 3834 of 4002
Probably not very. 4000 boxes would only be 10 per GW store, ignoring all internet and FLGS orders. Doubt they only made 4000.
I wouldn't be surprised if the "4002" was the regional allocation. Comparing the limited availability of this set to past instances of limited availability GW probably only made ~20,000 units globally.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Heh, my FLGS has a copy of SWA sitting on the shelf. I have half a mind to pick it up. It would have been a lot more exciting of a find if they hadn't announced the book coming separately (and rendering the book in the box obsolete).
The only thing different is that the upcoming book will have the downloadable lists, in physical print.
There is a more complete version of the rules. Digital is fine by me, for the most part, but it irks me that less than a week after release a better version of the rules came out in print.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Heh, my FLGS has a copy of SWA sitting on the shelf. I have half a mind to pick it up. It would have been a lot more exciting of a find if they hadn't announced the book coming separately (and rendering the book in the box obsolete).
The only thing different is that the upcoming book will have the downloadable lists, in physical print.
There is a more complete version of the rules. Digital is fine by me, for the most part, but it irks me that less than a week after release a better version of the rules came out in print.
I'd hardly call a multi-week pre-order period that starts 2 weeks after the release "less than a week".
casvalremdeikun wrote: Heh, my FLGS has a copy of SWA sitting on the shelf. I have half a mind to pick it up. It would have been a lot more exciting of a find if they hadn't announced the book coming separately (and rendering the book in the box obsolete).
The only thing different is that the upcoming book will have the downloadable lists, in physical print.
There is a more complete version of the rules. Digital is fine by me, for the most part, but it irks me that less than a week after release a better version of the rules came out in print.
I don't get why you say its obsolete and different rules. Its not. Same exact rules. All the new book is adding is the army lists that have been on their website for 2 weeks and sisters of battle and inquisition.
How you play the game part of the book is 100% the same. If you don't play sisters or inquisition then don't buy the book coming out.
One thing that annoys me about the book is that the fluff is so interspersed with the rules. I wish they would at least clean thing s up so when you're trying to look something up mid-game, you don't have to try and skim through the fluff descriptions of the weapon/gear/armor to find the actual rules.
casvalremdeikun wrote: but it irks me that less than a week after release a better version of the rules came out in print
Eh, I think it only matters in terms of resale value. A second print run already undercuts that market; upgrading the reprint really drives a steak through its heart. But if you don't care about resell, it's not really an issue.
Manchu wrote: Well - for terrain, I bought two box sets plus two Galvanic Magnavents. I also have a set of Aegis Defense Line, a set of Munitorum Armored Containers, and two sets of Prometheum Relay Pipes. I'd like to get a set of Haemotope Reactors and maybe a Void Shield Generator to round it all off. I figure this should be enough to fill up a 4x4 mat. I'd still like a separate ladder sprue.
I would suggest using Plastruct 1:48 scale ladders:
https://plastruct.com/shop/structural-shapes/90423-kl-8/ A fair number of handrails too, I may have to see who my biggest dealer is in the area.
Some of their stairs fit the bill as well:
So there are a few ways to add to what you bought from GW.
I got lucky. I have just purchased one of the last box sets (maybe) in captivity. The local store had one left. The set is a great deal in my opinion. Rules at first glance seem simple enough, which is what I want. Also, I may branch out into othe armies.
casvalremdeikun wrote: but it irks me that less than a week after release a better version of the rules came out in print
Eh, I think it only matters in terms of resale value. A second print run already undercuts that market; upgrading the reprint really drives a steak through its heart. But if you don't care about resell, it's not really an issue.
Thinking about this some more, I kind of hope the lists get revised a bit here and there - it is probably better to have a core book without the lists in that case.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Heh, my FLGS has a copy of SWA sitting on the shelf. I have half a mind to pick it up. It would have been a lot more exciting of a find if they hadn't announced the book coming separately (and rendering the book in the box obsolete).
The only thing different is that the upcoming book will have the downloadable lists, in physical print.
There is a more complete version of the rules. Digital is fine by me, for the most part, but it irks me that less than a week after release a better version of the rules came out in print.
I don't get why you say its obsolete and different rules. Its not. Same exact rules. All the new book is adding is the army lists that have been on their website for 2 weeks and sisters of battle and inquisition.
How you play the game part of the book is 100% the same. If you don't play sisters or inquisition then don't buy the book coming out.
GW on their community FB group has already said the Sisters and Inquisition lists will be made available for free as downloads shortly after the books release.
Manchu wrote: Well - for terrain, I bought two box sets plus two Galvanic Magnavents. I also have a set of Aegis Defense Line, a set of Munitorum Armored Containers, and two sets of Prometheum Relay Pipes. I'd like to get a set of Haemotope Reactors and maybe a Void Shield Generator to round it all off. I figure this should be enough to fill up a 4x4 mat. I'd still like a separate ladder sprue.
I would suggest using Plastruct 1:48 scale ladders:
https://plastruct.com/shop/structural-shapes/90423-kl-8/ A fair number of handrails too, I may have to see who my biggest dealer is in the area.
Some of their stairs fit the bill as well:
So there are a few ways to add to what you bought from GW.
Cant agree more.
I grabbed I think they were O scale or N scale (don't recall) ladders. two per pack, can easily make a good 6 ladders or so from that depending on how high you want them. Also grabbed their pack of 0 scale tubes to glue and make piles of old metal rods.
Now if I could just find easy cheap mesh catwalks (diagonal preferred)
I grabbed I think they were O scale or N scale (don't recall) ladders. two per pack, can easily make a good 6 ladders or so from that depending on how high you want them. Also grabbed their pack of 0 scale tubes to glue and make piles of old metal rods.
Now if I could just find easy cheap mesh catwalks (diagonal preferred)
Pretty sure they were O scale. N Scale (aprox 10mm which ranges from 1/144 to 1/160) would have been teeny tiny. O scale scenery has tons of applications for 28mm. Technically O is 1/48, but so much of it is compressed a bit anyway that it looks good next to 28mm figs on bases.
Mesh catwalks are a tough one. However, I've made several steel-reinforced catwalks/bridges for Necromunda from O-Gauge Gondolas. Old broken lionel Gondolas are pretty cheap and are already covered with ridges and rivets!
Also have done coal Scuttles from Hoppers. Great blocking terrain that doesn't take up too large a footprint.
I did a blog about a few of them here:
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2015/09/11/bridges-and-scuttles-from-o-scale-train/
I grabbed I think they were O scale or N scale (don't recall) ladders. two per pack, can easily make a good 6 ladders or so from that depending on how high you want them. Also grabbed their pack of 0 scale tubes to glue and make piles of old metal rods.
Now if I could just find easy cheap mesh catwalks (diagonal preferred)
Pretty sure they were O scale. N Scale (aprox 10mm which ranges from 1/144 to 1/160) would have been teeny tiny. O scale scenery has tons of applications for 28mm. Technically O is 1/48, but so much of it is compressed a bit anyway that it looks good next to 28mm figs on bases.
Mesh catwalks are a tough one. However, I've made several steel-reinforced catwalks/bridges for Necromunda from O-Gauge Gondolas. Old broken lionel Gondolas are pretty cheap and are already covered with ridges and rivets!
Also have done coal Scuttles from Hoppers. Great blocking terrain that doesn't take up too large a footprint.
I did a blog about a few of them here:
https://www.chicagoskirmishwargames.com/blog/2015/09/11/bridges-and-scuttles-from-o-scale-train/
There's not nearly enough skulls, cables, and ventilation on any of that
casvalremdeikun wrote: Heh, my FLGS has a copy of SWA sitting on the shelf. I have half a mind to pick it up. It would have been a lot more exciting of a find if they hadn't announced the book coming separately (and rendering the book in the box obsolete).
The only thing different is that the upcoming book will have the downloadable lists, in physical print.
There is a more complete version of the rules. Digital is fine by me, for the most part, but it irks me that less than a week after release a better version of the rules came out in print.
I don't get why you say its obsolete and different rules. Its not. Same exact rules. All the new book is adding is the army lists that have been on their website for 2 weeks and sisters of battle and inquisition.
How you play the game part of the book is 100% the same. If you don't play sisters or inquisition then don't buy the book coming out.
Look at my post. Look for the word different.
I am not saying the rules changed. The BOOK is obsolete. When I get a med order at work, and something changes, but the med is still the same (frequency, dose, etc), the old order is rendered obsolete. That is the frame of reference I am using.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Heh, my FLGS has a copy of SWA sitting on the shelf. I have half a mind to pick it up. It would have been a lot more exciting of a find if they hadn't announced the book coming separately (and rendering the book in the box obsolete).
The only thing different is that the upcoming book will have the downloadable lists, in physical print.
There is a more complete version of the rules. Digital is fine by me, for the most part, but it irks me that less than a week after release a better version of the rules came out in print.
I don't get why you say its obsolete and different rules. Its not. Same exact rules. All the new book is adding is the army lists that have been on their website for 2 weeks and sisters of battle and inquisition.
How you play the game part of the book is 100% the same. If you don't play sisters or inquisition then don't buy the book coming out.
Look at my post. Look for the word different.
I am not saying the rules changed. The BOOK is obsolete. When I get a med order at work, and something changes, but the med is still the same (frequency, dose, etc), the old order is rendered obsolete. That is the frame of reference I am using.
Again, the BOOK is obsolete.
Cool story, about the med thing. But that doesn't really apply here at all - there are very good reasons why an old medical order is obsolete when an update is applied (because other wise, people could die). Those reasons do not apply to the differences between Shadow Wars Armageddon's Rules.
Both books give you 100% of the rules.
One gives you 3 factions, the other gives you more.
Since all the faction rules included in the newer book are free and easily available, they have no bearing on the content of the rulebook.
It might be obsolete as far as you are concerned, but it is hardly obsolete in actuality.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Heh, my FLGS has a copy of SWA sitting on the shelf. I have half a mind to pick it up. It would have been a lot more exciting of a find if they hadn't announced the book coming separately (and rendering the book in the box obsolete).
The only thing different is that the upcoming book will have the downloadable lists, in physical print.
There is a more complete version of the rules. Digital is fine by me, for the most part, but it irks me that less than a week after release a better version of the rules came out in print.
I don't get why you say its obsolete and different rules. Its not. Same exact rules. All the new book is adding is the army lists that have been on their website for 2 weeks and sisters of battle and inquisition.
How you play the game part of the book is 100% the same. If you don't play sisters or inquisition then don't buy the book coming out.
Look at my post. Look for the word different.
I am not saying the rules changed. The BOOK is obsolete. When I get a med order at work, and something changes, but the med is still the same (frequency, dose, etc), the old order is rendered obsolete. That is the frame of reference I am using.
It's semantics. The book is still a correct representation of the game rules, even if it isn't the most recent printing. All the additional material will be available for free after this printing's release. So the only thing early adopters lose out on is the convenience of having it all bound together.
aka_mythos wrote: It's semantics. The book is still a correct representation of the game rules, even if it isn't the most recent printing. All the additional material will be available for free after this printing's release. So the only thing early adopters lose out on is the convenience of having it all bound together.
So the early adopters do miss out on something. And yes, convenience is something important (hence why there is an entire industry devoted to it).
aka_mythos wrote: It's semantics. The book is still a correct representation of the game rules, even if it isn't the most recent printing. All the additional material will be available for free after this printing's release. So the only thing early adopters lose out on is the convenience of having it all bound together.
So the early adopters do miss out on something. And yes, convenience is something important (hence why there is an entire industry devoted to it).
By your logic the first book was obsolete prior to even being released, since the core book only contained Orks, Scouts and Astra Militarum rules. All other factions were already in pdf form only, just like Inquisition and Sister will be.
aka_mythos wrote: It's semantics. The book is still a correct representation of the game rules, even if it isn't the most recent printing. All the additional material will be available for free after this printing's release. So the only thing early adopters lose out on is the convenience of having it all bound together.
So the early adopters do miss out on something. And yes, convenience is something important (hence why there is an entire industry devoted to it).
I'm pretty certain the reprinted book wouldn't exist without the early adopters and their fervent support. What they miss by being early adopters, they make up for in having made the game popular enough for GW to continue supporting despite plans otherwise. I guess they gain the convenience of having a game that GW keeps adding to.
I early adopted, I can't think of anything I missed.
Oh except the hand wringing, followed by the teeth gnashing and wailing from outraged people that weren't quick enough off from the blocks to land a copy.
casvalremdeikun wrote: So the early adopters do miss out on something. And yes, convenience is something important (hence why there is an entire industry devoted to it).
Well, again - I think this is only practically relevant in terms of resale. But let's hope the game gets support over time, including "living" PDF lists - in which case, having (mechanically) obsolete lists printed in your rulebook is not really an advantage.
aka_mythos wrote: It's semantics. The book is still a correct representation of the game rules, even if it isn't the most recent printing. All the additional material will be available for free after this printing's release. So the only thing early adopters lose out on is the convenience of having it all bound together.
So the early adopters do miss out on something. And yes, convenience is something important (hence why there is an entire industry devoted to it).
I'm pretty certain the reprinted book wouldn't exist without the early adopters and their fervent support. What they miss by being early adopters, they make up for in having made the game popular enough for GW to continue supporting despite plans otherwise. I guess they gain the convenience of having a game that GW keeps adding to.
This is the part I think that one poster is not catching onto. I remember when Apocalypse came out.. and it blew GW away (with how it took off). So much so that it transformed the core game. I think we're going to see a similar reaction from GW. They obviously realize they've been courting players wrong.. or at least they haven't been courting players that are more interested in this type of gameplay. I do believe that the current management and marketing teams are intelligent enough and genuinely want to turn things around in such a way that the concept of smaller games will work it's way back into the core rules.
I hope..
That said.. the mentality on the pricing for those terrain kits is beyond asinine. So.. we'll see how this works out.
Manchu wrote: Well, again - I think this is only practically relevant in terms of resale. But let's hope the game gets support over time, including "living" PDF lists - in which case, having (mechanically) obsolete lists printed in your rulebook is not really an advantage.
And if GW doesn't update them over time, the community will, so again, printed *faction lists* aren't automatically a benefit.
And that says nothing of the game rules which are the same, and again any updates via errata or FAQ will require separate copies for print books, wheras digital should just get an updated download.
I am likely to own both, because I want to support this game as much as I can and speak to GW with my wallet. I hope they continue to listen as they have been and we get a lot more from them as far as skirmish gaming goes. I'd love to see future box sets with more terrain bundles and new factions packaged within. An expanded campaign would be cool too.
Oh yeah, and release Necromunda with new plastic gangs.
aka_mythos wrote: It's semantics. The book is still a correct representation of the game rules, even if it isn't the most recent printing. All the additional material will be available for free after this printing's release. So the only thing early adopters lose out on is the convenience of having it all bound together.
So the early adopters do miss out on something. And yes, convenience is something important (hence why there is an entire industry devoted to it).
GW weren't going to win on this one. They decided to include the other lists in the reprinted rules, which annoys customers who bought the initial printing. If they had left them out and just reprinted the original book, we'd all be asking why they didn't do the obvious thing and roll all of the lists into the reprint...
Of course, you could argue that this could have been avoided if they had included those lists in the book to begin with... but that ship has already bolted through the spilt train. Or something.
insaniak wrote: GW weren't going to win on this one. They decided to include the other lists in the reprinted rules, which annoys customers who bought the initial printing. If they had left them out and just reprinted the original book, we'd all be asking why they didn't do the obvious thing and roll all of the lists into the reprint...
Of course, you could argue that this could have been avoided if they had included those lists in the book to begin with... but that ship has already bolted through the spilt train. Or something.
I would of been annoyed myself if they put all the lists in the original book.. as it is a place setting of Armageddon
I feel that they did the other races more for anticipation of player demands for the rules to exist..
But I do hope they do more shadow wars =D (secretly wishing for a Gorkamorka style one)
Not to rain on any parades but actual Necromunda seems very unlikely considering how much there is in the production line just to support 40k and AoS without even considering Blood Bowl and Hobbit/LotR. The beauty of Shadow War is that it runs parallel to 40k. Any new 40k support aside from the larger models could get Shadow War rules.
Are people complaining about getting something where others would love to get it but can't? Geeze some people are so ungrateful for what they have. Funny they were happy about it a week ago. Would they really not buy the product if they knew before hand? I have a feeling most would still get it knowing what they know now.
aka_mythos wrote: It's semantics. The book is still a correct representation of the game rules, even if it isn't the most recent printing. All the additional material will be available for free after this printing's release. So the only thing early adopters lose out on is the convenience of having it all bound together.
So the early adopters do miss out on something. And yes, convenience is something important (hence why there is an entire industry devoted to it).
This is kind of an absurd reason to be so upset. Yes, people who managed to be "early adopters" miss out on having all the lists in one book, and have to print off some papers and put them in a binder or have a digital device handy to access them. As opposed to people that did not manage to get a copy, who will likely have to pay well over $100 USD more to get all the box contents than the those of us who were able to get a copy for $130 or less. And we get access to the rules at least three to four weeks before them. I'm sure there are many people who would have happily gotten the boxed deal and had to print some PDFS then pay for everything individually at much higher prices.
As an early adopter with a stack of rulebooks... I don't care about the reprint. If I want the new-ish book I'll buy it and use the other copies to get other people started. Whatever copy I have is meaningless if I can't get other people to play.
I find it hard to blame GW beyond the fact they should have made more starter boxes. This release of a standalone rulebook, in this instance is uncharacteristic of GW; this book clearly wasn't a planned release and it's clear they are working as best as they can to accommodate the community. These extra 50 pages are as much of an olive branch as they can give us at this time. Accept it graciously or risk never seeing any attempt to give us what was asked for.
Manchu wrote: Not to rain on any parades but actual Necromunda seems very unlikely...
From GW, sure, but from Forge World it will happen.
Hmm maybe so - but that means it effectively doesn't exist for many customers ... such as myself.
My two copies of SWA arrived today! I had a chance to look over the box contents on Saturday but it will be nice to really get into the rulebook.
Blood Bowl didn't exist for you? Because if the SG team do get around to Necromunda after AT and BFHeresy, I'd expect it to get the same push as all of them, with a boxed set and some plastic releases supplemented by FW resin later - it'd be in stores at least as long as SWA has been.
Manchu wrote: Not to rain on any parades but actual Necromunda seems very unlikely...
From GW, sure, but from Forge World it will happen.
Hmm maybe so - but that means it effectively doesn't exist for many customers ... such as myself.
My two copies of SWA arrived today! I had a chance to look over the box contents on Saturday but it will be nice to really get into the rulebook.
When I look at the nature of many of the old Necromunda miniatures I can't help but imagine FW can recapture and improve on the essence of those miniatures. While it varies with the different gangs, some will not translate well to multipose plastics... And even if GW did produce the range in plastics we would then have to resign ourselves to never seeing any of the more unique characters.
I wouldn't be surprised if we see a mixed approach akin to Blood Bowl, where we receive some plastics and rulebook with FW producing in resin the more unique pieces and the gangs that are more challenging to produce in plastic.
Manchu wrote: Not to rain on any parades but actual Necromunda seems very unlikely...
From GW, sure, but from Forge World it will happen.
Hmm maybe so - but that means it effectively doesn't exist for many customers ... such as myself.
My two copies of SWA arrived today! I had a chance to look over the box contents on Saturday but it will be nice to really get into the rulebook.
When I look at the nature of many of the old Necromunda miniatures I can't help but imagine FW can recapture and improve on the essence of those miniatures. While it varies with the different gangs, some will not translate well to multipose plastics... And even if GW did produce the range in plastics we would then have to resign ourselves to never seeing any of the more unique characters.
I wouldn't be surprised if we see a mixed approach akin to Blood Bowl, where we receive some plastics and rulebook with FW producing in resin the more unique pieces and the gangs that are more challenging to produce in plastic.
I think every new specialist game will have the same chance of support as Blood Bowl. If the sales are there, GW will cater to customer with more releases, probably both from GW directly and FW.
This release should show GW at least as much interest for Shadow War as Necromunda. Time will tell if they've taken notice, I guess.
Well I know that people will tell me that HH proves otherwise but FW is a ghetto. Mainstream successful FW products into plastic GW releases? Good idea! Margoinalize successful GW products into FW super luxury items? Bad idea.
Manchu wrote: Not to rain on any parades but actual Necromunda seems very unlikely considering how much there is in the production line just to support 40k and AoS without even considering Blood Bowl and Hobbit/LotR. The beauty of Shadow War is that it runs parallel to 40k. Any new 40k support aside from the larger models could get Shadow War rules.
That said, all they'd have to really do is release some plastic gang kits and the force list to go along with them.
For that matter, it would be really easy to kit bash them into the Shadow War rules anyway.
Manchu wrote: Not to rain on any parades but actual Necromunda seems very unlikely considering how much there is in the production line just to support 40k and AoS without even considering Blood Bowl and Hobbit/LotR. The beauty of Shadow War is that it runs parallel to 40k. Any new 40k support aside from the larger models could get Shadow War rules.
That said, all they'd have to really do is release some plastic gang kits and the force list to go along with them.
For that matter, it would be really easy to kit bash them into the Shadow War rules anyway.
But that costs a ton of money, and I don't see that happening, ever. Atleast the plastic kits. They could easily write up rules to accommodate oldmunda model owners, but that's it.
There way to many third parties making resin/plastic proxy for necro its not worth their time.
GW should release a generic 'human troops' boxed set with a few different styles of torsos and various weapons and bits.
Just keep things down to simple bits- flak/leather vests, tank tops, etc. Give a few head options like hooded, 'scarred badass', gasmask, etc. Stick everything from las-weapons to auto-weapons in there; toss in some knives, swords, axes, and flails.
Want to make Chaos Cultists? Inquisition Acolytes? Hive gangers? Rugged Guard Veterans? Penal Unit? You now have a big box of stuff to use.
Manchu wrote: Not to rain on any parades but actual Necromunda seems very unlikely considering how much there is in the production line just to support 40k and AoS without even considering Blood Bowl and Hobbit/LotR. The beauty of Shadow War is that it runs parallel to 40k. Any new 40k support aside from the larger models could get Shadow War rules.
That said, all they'd have to really do is release some plastic gang kits and the force list to go along with them.
For that matter, it would be really easy to kit bash them into the Shadow War rules anyway.
But that costs a ton of money, and I don't see that happening, ever. Atleast the plastic kits. They could easily write up rules to accommodate oldmunda model owners, but that's it.
There way to many third parties making resin/plastic proxy for necro its not worth their time.
Necromunda is a Specialist Games project and even as recently as FW's last event they said it's something they're gonna do. There don't appear to be plans by GW to support Shadow War past these few releases. The main advantage to having these seperate arms of a company with dedicated resources is that SG and FW are mandated to support these smaller games indefinitely where GW proper can't. Horus Heresy, Blood Bowl, Hobbit/LotR, Adeptus Titanicus, Battlefleet (Gothic), Necromunda, and Mordheim were the game's that FW and Specialist Games were initially planning to support... while I believe Blood Bowl's success has altered that in some way, they haven't canceled any of their plans, only delayed them.
If GW can viably produce as many Shadow War kits or as many Blood Bowl teams and see that as profitable it is within the realm of possibility to do so with gangs, even if only to a limited number of gangs.
Yeah, in the sense of isolation. I'm thinking of LotR/Hobbit. I pefer the idea of FW as a boutique where you can make things in very small batches and charge tons because they wouldn't sell in the mainstream channel. HH has severely distorted that model. I fear that assigning Hobbit/LotR and specialist games to FW is a surefire way to doom them.
TBF the problem started with the Badab War books. That could have been and probably should have been a mainstream product initiative, just as GW is slowly conceding that 30k should be.
Manchu wrote: BB definitely exists for me - as an all-plastic game sold by GW. FW makes models for it you say? :checks prices: No, you must be mistaken.
Blood Bowl is a plastic product made by the Specialist Games division with support from FW. Necromunda will be a plastic product made by the Specialist Games division with support from FW, because they don't need to produce game-specific terrain for it these days unlike AT, so they will have a similar plastics allocation to BB - again, assuming they do get around to it.
Manchu wrote: Well I know that people will tell me that HH proves otherwise but FW is a ghetto. Mainstream successful FW products into plastic GW releases? Good idea! Margoinalize successful GW products into FW super luxury items? Bad idea.
FW is a ghetto? What does that even mean? Maybe ten years ago you could make a serious argument that FW produce "super luxury items" relative to GW, but I'm afraid GW have very nearly caught up with them, the differential is nowhere near as large as your language implies. If you think a plastic gang with all-plastic expansion blisters will end up significantly cheaper than a plastic gang with FW resin expansion blisters, you should have another look at the prices on recent character plastics.
That's pretty limited thinking, Yodhrin. There are ways to get around the high price of many character models (e.g., start collecting boxes) that are especially cost efficient in the context of Shadow War being ancillary to 40k proper - which ties back to the problem of Necromunda being truly "specialist" (i.e., narrow) by comparison. Also, a gang is not going to be priced at special character prices per fig unless it is sold via FW.
Again, I concede that FW could do resin Necromunda gangs for Shadow Wars - that would be a better use of FW considering such gangs are not going to be a competitive mainline product, unlike bells and whistles for the Legions. But that's also what I mean by FW being the appropriate channel for experiments and a terrible channel for supporting major successes. (Which in turn is why the HH stuff is so ambiguous.)
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aka_mythos wrote: I think most of that isolation would be solved if you could FW shipped to a GW store for free.
Yes indeed - and for a while, this was a rumor. But the issue there is, could FW handle increased demand? Probably no chnace, espcially considering mainline GW is having trouble keeping up.
Manchu wrote: That's pretty limited thinking, Yodhrin. There are ways to get around the high price of many character models (e.g., start collecting boxes) that are especially cost efficient in the context of Shadow War being ancillary to 40k proper - which ties back to the problem of Necromunda being truly "specialist" (i.e., narrow) by comparison. Also, a gang is not going to be priced at special character prices per fig unless it is sold via FW.
See.... as an Australian ordering from FW is actually Cheaper than buying from GW one of the reason why 30k became so popular down here
The investments made in the last couple years to expand FW's capacity has GW considering it. I know GW's North American office has been asking for it for a while.
The greater number of plastics and box sets for Specialist Games could be as much as we ever get, but I think it's GWs way of feeling out just how broad the interest may be.
we had something similar
FW being cheaper than GW because of bad conversion rates and Finecast Price increase
So if they ever do the gangs again I really hope they come via FW and not from GW.
Where Specialist Games fits into the corproate org chart is not at issue. The issue is, there are two kinds of BB products: (1) all plastic, available from GW and retailers, reasonably priced, discounts available, and (2) all resin, available only via direct from overseas boutique, boutique pricing. While I have purchased 100% of product type (1) stuff for BB, I have purchased and intend to purchase 0% of product type (2). I really doubt I am unique in this regard. If GW wants a product line to struggle and eventually fail then by all means shift it from (1) to (2).
Separately, the idea that Necromunda would be a big hit is not the correct lesson to draw from Shadow War's success. The lesson is, support Shadow War. Making hiver gangs is not that, which is probably why GW via FB was fairly dismissive of comments asking about that (e.g., advising people to use the IG lists pr adapt their own rules). That said, I would buy plastic Necromunda stuff just like I have been buying plastic BB stuff - I'd just avoid the overpriced, direct-only FW resin as I always have.
Maybe you are only talking about 50 GBP worth of models. And if every potential customer is also only talking about spending that much then what we have is a fairly insignificant line that will not get support over more profitable lines in a division of the company that already has limited resources. But hey I guess you assigned the line to said division in the first place because you never expected it to do well. This is what's called a self-fulfilling prophecy. Big successes like the plastic BB releaes and the Shadow War box afford GW chances to break out of that trap.
Honestly, the best approach GW could take for Necromunda would be to do at least two gangs as plastic boxes in a simailar way to the Neophyte Hybrid kit (with options for a leader, heavy, various weapons, etc). I reckon there's enough potential to justify a plastic kit for the 6 main gangs.
Players could either buy a second plastic box to expand their gang, or choose low production volume models from FW such as special characters, outlanders, and alternate models for the plastic gangs (such as a leader with a grenade launcher, heavy with a lascannon, etc). Cap it all off with a permanent Shadow War-like starter box of 2 plastic gangs, a rulebook and a bunch of sector mechanicus terrain, and you're set. Hell, people would buy that to get cheap terrain for 40k and get sucked into owning a Necromunda gang too.
I can see the current approach with the Blood Bowl range working even better for Necromunda thanks to the terrain crossover.
Vorian wrote: I'm pretty certain they will give it at least the same support as BB, so some plastic and some resin.
Resin will probably even be a money saver over the eBay prices I've had to pay
Definitely. Even a 10-12 man resin gang wouldn't likely cost more than 45-50 pounds (based on a guard squad being 43 if I remember correctly), which wouldn't be much more than $60. Compared to how much it would cost to pick up some of the second hand Necro gangs that's a steal. If the minis are well sculpted and presuming you only need one box to field a decent gang (assuming there are decent options for weapons and what not) $60 isn't too unreasonable for a buy in if you have terrain or play at a local game store. If GW does 12 man plastic gangs for $35-40 like they did with Blood Bowl with a fair number of weapon options, I would buy at least two, and I image many others would go to town.
Manchu wrote: Where Specialist Games fits into the corproate org chart is not at issue. The issue is, there are two kinds of BB products: (1) all plastic, available from GW and retailers, reasonably priced, discounts available, and (2) all resin, available only via direct from overseas boutique, boutique pricing. While I have purchased 100% of product type (1) stuff for BB, I have purchased and intend to purchase 0% of product type (2). I really doubt I am unique in this regard. If GW wants a product line to struggle and eventually fail then by all means shift it from (1) to (2).
Except FW does fine. Having new stuff come out from FW isn't bringing BB down, nor would eventually shifting all of it over (other than the existing plastic kits). You making a personal choice not to buy it is in no way indicative of FW's success, and continued growing success. FW is so mainstream these days that the old concepts of the Adepticon 'Iron Man' tournament where people brought *gasp* Forge World models is just so quaint these days.
It's no ghetto. Not any more.
Manchu wrote: Separately, the idea that Necromunda would be a big hit is not the correct lesson to draw from Shadow War's success. The lesson is, support Shadow War.
You're quite right about that, but supporting Shadow War =/= not doing Necromunda. Now I realise you didn't say that, but your post seems to imply some sort of binary position, where they can only do one or the other. That said, I think we both know that they had no intention of supporting Shadow War, and only the overwhelming response from the community changed their mind. I mean they weren't even planning a digital release of the book, something they usually have for everything from novels to card pack releases. The lack of immediate or accompanying digital release is quite telling.
Manchu wrote: Making hiver gangs is not that, which is probably why GW via FB was fairly dismissive of comments asking about that (e.g., advising people to use the IG lists pr adapt their own rules).
Or that they don't make/sell kits, and GW has no interest in propping up a market where they don't sell their stuff. That's the far more likely reason.
Manchu wrote: That said, I would buy plastic Necromunda stuff just like I have been buying plastic BB stuff - I'd just avoid the overpriced, direct-only FW resin as I always have.
Seems like an arbitrary imposition you have placed on yourself. You make it sound like you'd only buy plastic Necro, almost as if the material its made out of matters more than what it is. Truth is GW made no plastic Necromunda outside of the 8 sculpts that came in the starter box (plus the bulk heads). Everything else was metal. Would you have not bought into Necromunda back then because GW chose to do virtually everything in metal? Would you buy GW's current metal BB teams (the made to order Chaos, Chaos Dwarfs and Dark Elves). They're not FW miniatures.
There is no difference between a Blood Bowl miniature made by FW or done via GW's plastic technology beyond the material it is made out of. Really this seems to be a hangup you've created for yourself.
H.B.M.C. wrote: There is no difference between a Blood Bowl miniature made by FW or done via GW's plastic technology beyond the material it is made out of. Really this seems to be a hangup you've created for yourself..
Well except for the 50%ish price increase, that is a difference as well.
And so the Resin vs Plastic Wars did rage. Meanwhile, over here I'm playing Necromunda perfectly happily with mashups of the many readily-available plastic kits. Oh, with free rules, on cheaper, superior-for-the-game terrain from a 3rd party. There is no barrier to playing Necromunda. The only barrier for most seems to be needing specific minis and a specific boxset from GW. Shame, as it's a fun fun fun game just sat there ready to play.
Shadow War is quite possibly just a low-risk way for GW to gauge the market.
For all intents and purposes, it's a 'spit and polish' version of Necromunda - and an experiment in what sort of price point they can set.
For those of a certain age, one of the main reasons bandied around at the demise of Specialist Games was that income wise, they just weren't pulling their weight - so GW chose to focus on the games that did.
Of course, whether that's just speculation or not is difficult to say for certain - but it does seem at least plausible.
Shadow War? Relatively minimal production costs compared to say, Space Hulk. Pre-existing models, terrain they were going to sell anyway, and most of the rules also pre-existing. Bit of playtesting, tweak here, simplification there - page setting, off to the printers and get it boxed up.
That it sold out in minutes, and GW have acted on feedback and moved to produce the rulebook as quickly as possible does suggest there's a market for it.
Now, as a long time Necromunda player, you and I might be thinking 'well.....duh', but let's consider GW's perspective.
Necromunda and Shadow War share the same rules set, one that's now over 20 years old - a genuine relic in the terms of modern wargaming, where the shift has typically been to more straight forward rules.
So one can easily imagine GW wondering 'is that market really still there? Will people play that rules set?'. And that's not a bad question. The rules are fairly clunky. It took me a couple of attempts reading the scatter rules, and choosing a target rules to get them - especially 'it'll scatter, but no more than half the distance the round was fired'. That's....that's a level of rules I've not played with in a long, long time.
And it was a riskier release than we might appreciate. For instance, other than the £80 box, I'm not feeling any particular compunction to rush out and buy new models specifically for a Kill Team - I'll just draft them from my existing Skitarii collection. With the not unfair assumption that many other owners will be doing the same, GW isn't looking at a great many additional sales beyond the boxed set or rules.
And even now, I suspect they'll be keeping a close eye on how well the rulebook sells separately. After all, at least part of the boxed game's draw was lots of brand cheap scenery at a decent discount (buying from Darksphere, I think I got a 50% discount over buying the scenery separately from GW direct) - and the further opportunity to reduce your outlay even further by flogging on the rules and templates etc for those only in it for the new scenery.
It's my fervent hope that the game is a genuine, ongoing success, and not a 'flash in the pan' success which quickly peters out amongst gamers. Because if it's the former, I can quite imagine Necromunda getting a full resurrection.
Unless this is really what 8th ed 40k will look like anyway, we'll be playing Necromunda/SWA for a while yet. The club here was playing Necromunda recently, and SWA will probably replace that.
We usually play smaller games of 40k, and Kill Team has been a regular since the recent reprints.
So, SWA is here to stay, at least for where I play.
As for the wider market:
Existing gamers have the models already, and can dive straight in. GW will get a few more sales, beyond the half-price box.
New games get to get started with a single squad box, and can expand into bigger games from there, just like Kill Team. They'll probably tinker with other 'armies', as they work out how the game plays, and settle on one or two to build up.
Both of these will make more sales than GW would have got anyway, just not by a huge amount more.
If they fully merge Necromunda with SWA, and release updated gang lists, they can put the ganger models back on sale. If that blows up, Finecast might see a new lease of droopy models getting sold.
zanzibarthefirst wrote: Not sure how significant this is but on the box my shadow war was delivered in it states produced January 2017 and carton number 3834 of 4002
Probably not very. 4000 boxes would only be 10 per GW store, ignoring all internet and FLGS orders. Doubt they only made 4000.
The box also says quantity in carton "3" so that would take game production up to 12k.
As for the wider market:
Existing gamers have the models already, and can dive straight in. GW will get a few more sales, beyond the half-price box.
New games get to get started with a single squad box, and can expand into bigger games from there, just like Kill Team. They'll probably tinker with other 'armies', as they work out how the game plays, and settle on one or two to build up.
Both of these will make more sales than GW would have got anyway, just not by a huge amount more.
If they fully merge Necromunda with SWA, and release updated gang lists, they can put the ganger models back on sale. If that blows up, Finecast might see a new lease of droopy models getting sold.
How about people buying forces they had no intention of collecting a full army of, but would have liked to do a small skirmish force of? Those £50-60 forces will all add up if people decide to go for more than one. All those whim ideas can be indulged on a smaller scale as I've lost count of the amount of times I've fancied doing a theme, then realised that I don't want 1500 points worth and it died.
There may be more sales at stake here than I initially gave credit.
Consider Imperial Guard Veterans. One of their Specialist choices is an Ogryn. And said Ogryns can be armed in one of three ways....and there's three Ogryns to a box. They seem pretty damned hard in Shadow War - so could be an attractive purchase?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Further thoughts....
There may be more sales at stake here than I initially gave credit.
Consider Imperial Guard Veterans. One of their Specialist choices is an Ogryn. And said Ogryns can be armed in one of three ways....and there's three Ogryns to a box. They seem pretty damned hard in Shadow War - so could be an attractive purchase?
I would say that what GW has done is sucked people like me even further into the 40k universe: I want pretty much everything.
I want the Tyranid Warriors.
I want Harlequin warriors.
I want some Genestealer cult guys.
I just got a Doc and Gretchin to add to the Orks.
I want Tau Pathfinders.
I want Ogryns for the very reason written above.
This is just stuff off the top of my head and not including what I already have (which is a fair amount of stuff).
What I listed is over $300 above the two SWA boxes I got (just bought another yesterday, they STILL have some!).
This is the most excited I have been with GW product in a while (new faction model releases excluded).
BTWthanks to anyone who shows pictures of their terrain setups: I am toying with a few configurations until I make them permanent and glue them down so the ideas are great! I have 12"x12" hardboard I use as a base and setup terrain on them like a mini-diorama.
I figure with the two kits I can get a well populated 4 tiles done with the walkways and another 2 with the odds and sods of bits.
I have been laying them out so when you push the tiles together the walkways "should" line-up and give a few options as you rotate the tile.
I have to look at the rules more to figure out why anyone would hazard going up on a walkway to potentially die if they fall off, but at least it looks VERY impressive.
Blocking sight lines and giving at least partial cover in many areas is looking very doable.
For "loose" joining walkways I agree that the various train bridges work great.
Any of them that mold-in the train tracks I would line with some tubing and lay down some "diamond plate" with various cut-outs in it to view the piping / wiring and bits.
I have a few old WW2 temporary bridge models (with the little pontoon / boat bottoms) that have nice low cross-members that look very close to a hand-rail.
Ah, I think it is this one:
I get two walkways out of it (I have the bridge only, not these extra troops).
Slap a couple "I" beam plastic bits on the underside and I will be doing OK.
BUT yes, not near enough rivets and skulls, maybe buy a "Dreadhold" and I will have enough skulls to shave off to last me a lifetime.
I am looking at my TON of old Necromunda terrain and think I will make a card version of the printed stuff, it may be easier to integrate with the new product.
I can look at this as more warehousing/logistics/munitions end of things than the chemical industry of the SWA kit.
I just had a thought: what the heck would an Imperial machine that makes say tank treads look like? There may be a theme here.
I am long overdue for making terrain and I am pretty good at it (comparatively to others is my area...) so I am in my happy place.
I think I have two of my tiles finalized for layout so when I start gluing (thinking of screwing down as well) I will get a picture out.
I am unsure if I want to buy this new book, but I know I will want to download all the team pdf's I can before they disappear some day.
Just confirmed on twitch that the crane from the top of the battle report board will be part of a future kit.
A few more tidbits from the warhammer live interview. This is by no means all of the scenery they are doing in this series. They talked about the crane, about connecting pipes and in the future containers to the sets. All the recent kits have been measured to fit together smoothly.
The big board from white dwarf had no converted or scratch built components except the water.
It will be interesting to see the kits that are coming down the pipe.
They also mentioned that they will be doing modular Aos scenery, maybe with the rumoured 'not mordheim' coming next year.
I have a few old WW2 temporary bridge models (with the little pontoon / boat bottoms) that have nice low cross-members that look very close to a hand-rail.
Ah, I think it is this one:
I get two walkways out of it (I have the bridge only, not these extra troops).
Slap a couple "I" beam plastic bits on the underside and I will be doing OK.
BUT yes, not near enough rivets and skulls, maybe buy a "Dreadhold" and I will have enough skulls to shave off to last me a lifetime.
As much as I love my old Airfix kits (fond childhood memories), it could be worth your while looking for cheap toy soldier kits from bargain stores.
I have three bridges of this type kicking around that I picked up from such sets:
Prior to Shadow War, I bought NOTHING from the 40k line. Absolutely nothing. Upon purchasing Shadow War, that has quickly changed.
So before even playing I've now acquired-
Kabalites (to run as a mashup of Wyches/Craftworlders I guess, at least til they get their own list)
Genestealer Cult boxes
Enough Harlequins to run a kill team (couldn't complain at the price of 15 for 6 unbuilt ones)
Two sets of chaos marine squads
Necron Immortals
And will more than likely end up with a Grey Knights squad this weekend
...all of which I wouldn't have even bothered with prior to having a low model game that I can mess around with so much, and who knows what I'll end up with in the future.
There's definitely a lot of money (and not just mine) on the table if GW really wants to pursue this further.
I have a few old WW2 temporary bridge models (with the little pontoon / boat bottoms) that have nice low cross-members that look very close to a hand-rail.
Ah, I think it is this one:
I get two walkways out of it (I have the bridge only, not these extra troops).
Slap a couple "I" beam plastic bits on the underside and I will be doing OK.
BUT yes, not near enough rivets and skulls, maybe buy a "Dreadhold" and I will have enough skulls to shave off to last me a lifetime.
As much as I love my old Airfix kits (fond childhood memories), it could be worth your while looking for cheap toy soldier kits from bargain stores.
I have three bridges of this type kicking around that I picked up from such sets:
I luck out there's a model train store a block from my house. i've picked up dozens for a $1 or $2 each . I usually use the central track for towers.
this one i made into a dice tower for the board
I know GW is all about selling you as many models as possible, but not everyone has the time and money to invest in huge armies (I know I don't anymore, I wish I did, but I don't). At the same time, the 40K universe has so much to it, and so many armies, and due to the price most people can really just focus on 1 or 2 armies and don't buy stuff for other armies when they're released.
A game like this encourages you to to collect a lot more and check out some other releases you might have missed out on because it just wasn't for the army you played.
I've just about finished painting my Commissar Colonel Ibram Gaunt miniature. He's sat with the rest of my Gaunt's Ghosts on my desk for years gathering dust, but the prospect that I might actually use him in a game one day prompted me to actually do something with him.
Oh, and I've bought the Omnibus of the original 3 Gaunt's Ghosts books for, er...background research.
And ordered a couple of Ghosts that I was missing off ebay, as well as the Schaeffer's Last Chancer with the missile launcher.
And I have the classic Techpriest (the one that's still available in metal) in my basket on GW.com, as well as the awesome looking Wordbearer's Dark Apostle, because my Gaunt's Ghosts are going to need some opponents. (I'm the only enthusiastic wargamer in my gaming club, so I often provide minis for my friends to use. They don't have the time and inclination to collect and paint their own miniatures, but they're often happy to play using mine).
Shadow War: Armageddon is exactly the sort of slippery slope that Gamesworkshop needs, an entry drug. I haven't even't played Warhammer 40K in half a decade, but its gotten me enthusiastic about the prospect of playing it again one day.
HBMC, you're not reading very carefully. As I framed my point at the outset: Mainstreaming successful FW products into GW plastics is a good thing. Marginalizing successful GW products into FW resin is a bad thing. "FW is doing fine" is not a counterpoint. People are buying more FW resin? OK but its still a boutique. It's still comparatively inaccessible. It's still comparatively expensive - even when the lines we're comparing it to are themselves very expensive. And yes that makes FW a ghetto. It's really not a hard concept: just imagine what would happen to sales volume for, say, AdMech if GW decided all AdMech should be resin sold through FW. Not really a matter of arbitrary personal preference. Maybe it is a factor of the Australian perspective, where paradoxically FW can be more accessible than GW, but you don't seem to savvy that I'm distinguishing between sales channels instead of, for example, resin versus plastic.
As to a Shadow War/Necromunda binary - uh no ... I am no more saying that GW has to choose one or the other than I would say that GW has to choose 40k or Epic. I said what I meant, that the correct lesson to draw from the success of Shadow War is NOT that Necromunda would also be a big hit.
Talizvar wrote: I would say that what GW has done is sucked people like me even further into the 40k universe: I want pretty much everything. I want [...] What I listed is over $300 above the two SWA boxes I got (just bought another yesterday, they STILL have some!). This is the most excited I have been with GW product in a while (new faction model releases excluded).
highlord tamburlaine wrote: Prior to Shadow War, I bought NOTHING from the 40k line. Absolutely nothing. Upon purchasing Shadow War, that has quickly changed.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Shadow War: Armageddon is exactly the sort of slippery slope that Gamesworkshop needs, an entry drug. I haven't even't played Warhammer 40K in half a decade, but its gotten me enthusiastic about the prospect of playing it again one day.
Necros wrote: A game like this encourages you to to collect a lot more and check out some other releases you might have missed out on because it just wasn't for the army you played.
Yes, this is the correct lesson to draw from Shadow War. There is a lot of pent up interest in existing 40k lines that can be accessed by creating a ruleset people want to play, which in turn acts as a "permission slip" to buy the models. Go figure!
GW is recovering from its own Dark Age of Technology and has to re-learn things it used to know ...
Manchu wrote: That's pretty limited thinking, Yodhrin. There are ways to get around the high price of many character models (e.g., start collecting boxes) that are especially cost efficient in the context of Shadow War being ancillary to 40k proper - which ties back to the problem of Necromunda being truly "specialist" (i.e., narrow) by comparison. Also, a gang is not going to be priced at special character prices per fig unless it is sold via FW.
Again, I concede that FW could do resin Necromunda gangs for Shadow Wars - that would be a better use of FW considering such gangs are not going to be a competitive mainline product, unlike bells and whistles for the Legions. But that's also what I mean by FW being the appropriate channel for experiments and a terrible channel for supporting major successes. (Which in turn is why the HH stuff is so ambiguous.)
But again, FW will not be doing Necromunda if it gets done, just as FW didn't do Blood Bowl - Specialist Games division will be doing Necromunda, meaning they will have a plastic allocation for a core box, a couple of plastic expansion boxes, and a couple of plastic blister packs, and then the system would be supported by either FW resin or plastic releases going forward based on demand for the initial product, just like Blood Bowl. Under that model, the difference between a plastic gang with resin addons and an all-plastic gang isn't as big as you seem to think it is, because the addons would be priced as expensive single blisters, as evidenced by the Ogre & Troll.
Even if this were the days of yore and GW were doing Necromunda themselves, they'd still be producing a handful of core plastic releases supplemented by metal or finecast kits at relatively inflated prices, that's their core business model - having the overpriced addons made by FW in resin rather than GW in plastic/resin/metal isn't as big a difference as you seem to think.
As for my "limited thinking" - hilarious. Start Collecting boxes? Maybe it's just me, but I don't consider "pay for a lot of stuff you didn't actually want and get this character essentially free" as a particularly "innovative" solution to plastic characters being expensive. Start Collecting boxes are a great deal, providing you want enough of what's in them to make a saving over just buying what you wanted separately.
The Specialist Games were always going to be more expensive. With Adeptus Titanicus, where going FW resin for all the Titans would have meant paying hundreds of quid for a basic force, FW producing a significant portion of the range would indeed be exclusionary and make the game's audience "narrow", but Necromunda is a different beast - they don't need to produce terrain for it, so the whole plastic allocation can go into producing a proper boxed set and some extra core gangs, and even though you're still talking about FW pricing being expensive(say, 50 quid for a gang rather than 25 - 25 for a character model/expansion blister rather than 15-20) the total outlay is far, far smaller than an all-resin AT force would be.
Will the FW-produced all-resin gangs(again, for Naffy - assuming it does end up happening) end up with a lower share of the playerbase than the three or four core plastic gangs? Almost certainly, but as long as the plastics exist to provide a baseline having a portion of the range be FW-produced isn't going to kill it off. EDIT: And if you're going to try and argue that conclusion, you'll have to explain why it works for 40K but wouldn't work for Necromunda.
And again, the org chart question is beside the point. The GW/FW distinction is real in terms of materials, price, and most importantly sales channel.
As you concede, Start Collecting boxes are a great deal. Another advantage to GW (as opposed to FW) is that you can get Start Collecting boxes for even cheaper through retail channels. And that obviously applies to figures not included in Start Collecting boxes, as well. But that wasn't the larger context I have been referencing - which is that, Shadow War and 40k are parallel lines. That's why I was talking about Start Collecting boxes. The crossover potential (very probably) wouldn't hold for Necromunda.
As a LotR/Hobbit fan, I'm very much aware of the difference in cost between GWFC versus FW. As explained above, RRP is not the sole (or even most important) consideration. Of course, that doesn't mean you can shrug it off.
Manchu wrote: HBMC, you're not reading very carefully. As I framed my point at the outset: Mainstreaming successful FW products into GW plastics is a good thing. Marginalizing successful GW products into FW resin is a bad thing.
Your point is predicated on the assumption that successful GW products having FW elements to them is a bad thing, that it marginalises them, or that they would move from GW to FW wholesale. You have not proven this assertion, and I doubt you can.
Manchu wrote: "FW is doing fine" is not a counterpoint.
That which is presented without evidence, etc., etc.
Manchu wrote: People are buying more FW resin? OK but its still a boutique. It's still comparatively inaccessible.
By what standards is it inaccessible? It can't be ordered to stores? I live on the opposite side of the planet. I can have a FW order here in 2 weeks. There's nothing inaccessible about it. It's certainly not the endless tide of relentless production that GW proper has become, but as I said we have long since moved beyond the days of FW being boutique.
Manchu wrote: It's still comparatively expensive - even when the lines we're comparing it to are themselves very expensive.
I'm willing to concede that it's not cheap, but nothing about this is cheap, and I don't see that as a barrier to entry, so to speak, for people starting FW. When I first started buying Forge World units it was an oddity. My resin Baneblade was something special. Now a conversion kit here or a character model here is old hat. It ain't no ghetto.
Manchu wrote: It's really not a hard concept: just imagine what would happen to sales volume for, say, AdMech if GW decided all AdMech should be resin sold through FW.
For a time that's all we had. The Tagmatah was the closest thing we had to Ad Mech. It's not as if GW is shifting entire product lines across to FW. They're doing what FW has always done - filling in the gaps. If anything, their inclusion in the latest success for Blood Bowl makes them even more mainstream.
Manchu wrote: Not really a matter of arbitrary personal preference.
Considering you're the only person I've ever heard express these views I'm gonna say that yeah, it kinda is.
Manchu wrote: Maybe it is a factor of the Australian perspective, where paradoxically FW can be more accessible than GW, but you don't seem to savvy that I'm distinguishing between sales channels instead of, for example, resin versus plastic.
Aside from price, which is neither here nor there to a lot of us as we don't buy retail from GW anyway ('cause that's just dumb!), it's neither more or less accessible than one another. I can order anything at any time, and have no trouble getting it.
HBMC, you say I am the only person who has ever pointed out that products sold only through FW have a lower sales volume than products sold through the regular retail channels? I guess you have never seen anyone else point it out because it is obvious ... except perhaps to you? I mean, this is why FW exists.
Also - why is it hard for you to understand that a true direct-only boutique is less accessible than global retail? I smell bad faith. Unless you really believe "product accessibility" is strictly a matter of how easily you personally, a long time fan heavily invested in the brand, can push Add To Cart on the FW website.
Yodhrin wrote: And if you're going to try and argue that conclusion, you'll have to explain why it works for 40K but wouldn't work for Necromunda.
Easy. Because 40k is a flagship product line continuously supported by mainstream releases, including discount bundles. As I understand it, your vision of Necromunda is an initial mainstream plastic release subsequently supported by FW releases.
In hindsight, you can see why they broke contact on making these boxed sets.
1) The book, website, etc. Can be developed into an ongoing product with expansion potential. The base rules set is exceptionally simple, and the plug and play aspect to use it in other venues makes it easy to sustain.
2) The boxed terrain sets are some of the best that I have ever seen from GW. To see this in plastic, it is not going to be easy to not gather up around 2-3 of these for bitz-box parts alone. Add in plastic card, and foam board, and you will have a full 4X 8 table in no time.
3) The gang/ squad concept is easy to manage, and the campaign style can be developed for numerous additional content that then can be expanded on and engaged without taking your wallet out for a new pair of cement work boots.
All in all, GW crapped themselves, but they seem to have bounced back over the issue that they created.
Hm... so, my brother is starting a CSM killteam, and we noticed something strange - the chain fist seems to be a way better option than the powerfist, considering the PF is more than three times as expensive and is only available on Aspiring Champions.
I mean, to compare:
Chainfist:
S8, D3 damage, -7 save mod, noisy,
vs power fist:
S+2, D3 damage, -3 save mod.
The chainfist is just a lot stronger, cheaper, and the downside is only relevant in a single scenario. Or am I missing something?
Todosi wrote: Do we have any news or rumors to report on future releases perhaps?
The impression I got from GW's FB posts is that there will be more support through WD. I emphasize that was my interpretation rather than any explicit statement on GW's part. No mention of specifics.
Todosi wrote: Do we have any news or rumors to report on future releases perhaps?
The impression I got from GW's FB posts is that there will be more support through WD. I emphasize that was my interpretation rather than any explicit statement on GW's part. No mention of specifics.
The only concrete things they've said on future releases:
-there will be a standalone rulebook, with SoB and Inquisition teams
-said SoB and Inquisition teams will be available as free downloads shortly after its release
-the Oil rig board was only built with kit pieces, components such as the crane, some pipes, and other equipment will be part of future terrain kits
Thommy H wrote: The chainfist is only available to Chaos Terminator special operatives. It's not on the equipment list.
Okay, seems like its a translation issue then. The german version of the rules gives CSM the option of buying a chainfist... no chainsword though. Kind of an important difference, that. -__-
Manchu wrote: Well I know that people will tell me that HH proves otherwise but FW is a ghetto. Mainstream successful FW products into plastic GW releases? Good idea! Margoinalize successful GW products into FW super luxury items? Bad idea.
Agreed. Emphatically.
I appreciate FW, but past experiences as well as pricing/availability/ease of purchase make FW a non entity concerning my purchasing habits. There is next to nothing that they make that makes me think I need to buy it. So if Necromunda is FW only, then Necromunda exists only in fond memories rather than current game play.
Necromunda is awesome, but I'm pretty happy to play 40k in a microcosmic scale. They just need to add more variety in rules, like iyanden and such for it to be a great game instead of just pretty good.
Thommy H wrote: The chainfist is only available to Chaos Terminator special operatives. It's not on the equipment list.
Okay, seems like its a translation issue then. The german version of the rules gives CSM the option of buying a chainfist... no chainsword though. Kind of an important difference, that. -__-
Ah, yes, that would explain the confusion. In the English version, the third option in the hand-to-hand weapons of the Chaos Space Marines Equipment List is chainsword. Might want to let them know on their Facebook so they can correct it!
Thommy H wrote: The chainfist is only available to Chaos Terminator special operatives. It's not on the equipment list.
Okay, seems like its a translation issue then. The german version of the rules gives CSM the option of buying a chainfist... no chainsword though. Kind of an important difference, that. -__-
Ah, yes, that would explain the confusion. In the English version, the third option in the hand-to-hand weapons of the Chaos Space Marines Equipment List is chainsword. Might want to let them know on their Facebook so they can correct it!
Manchu wrote: Yes I would love to see some variant lists, especially Iyanden and Thousand Sons.
There's varying skill charts for some of the Maureen Chapters and the Orks Klans, so seems possible we may see the same for others
I'm not big into Eldar... do the Dire Avengers vary that much between different craftworlds? Unlike some of the other factions I can't help but think the distinctions come from preferred Aspects, which beyond Special Operatives would be outside the scope of the game.
Manchu wrote: Separately, the idea that Necromunda would be a big hit is not the correct lesson to draw from Shadow War's success. The lesson is, support Shadow War. Making hiver gangs is not that, which is probably why GW via FB was fairly dismissive of comments asking about that (e.g., advising people to use the IG lists pr adapt their own rules). That said, I would buy plastic Necromunda stuff just like I have been buying plastic BB stuff - I'd just avoid the overpriced, direct-only FW resin as I always have.
I agree that supporting Shadow Was is the lesson, but I disagree that adding hive gangs into Shadow War should not be done. It absolutely should be done; they're characterful to the setting and highly appropriate.
Manchu wrote: Separately, the idea that Necromunda would be a big hit is not the correct lesson to draw from Shadow War's success. The lesson is, support Shadow War. Making hiver gangs is not that, which is probably why GW via FB was fairly dismissive of comments asking about that (e.g., advising people to use the IG lists pr adapt their own rules). That said, I would buy plastic Necromunda stuff just like I have been buying plastic BB stuff - I'd just avoid the overpriced, direct-only FW resin as I always have.
I agree that supporting Shadow Was is the lesson, but I disagree that adding hive gangs into Shadow War should not be done. It absolutely should be done; they're characterful to the setting and highly appropriate.
No they're not. The setting is Armageddon, not Necromunda. Shadow War feels more like Kill Team to me.
Edit: unless you're talking about Hive Gangs on Armageddon?
Though I do agree, I would really like to see the return of the actual Necromunda setting and gangs, they're a staple aspect of 40K lore.
I was interested in this until it turned out they only made five* copies of the box set then told everyone else to buy all the parts separately later for more money. I know I am late but it has been bugging me since it was 'sold out' almost instantly, and still annoys so I thought if I went ahead and posted it I could move one with my life. Perhaps now I can dream again?
No they're not. The setting is Armageddon, not Necromunda. Shadow War feels more like Kill Team to me.
Though I do agree, I would really like to see the return of the actual Necromunda setting and gangs, they're a staple aspect of 40K lore.
Armageddon and Necromunda are both hive worlds. They both have hive cities and underhives. They would certainly both have hive gangs. von Strab's treason was probably an open invitation to lawless elements and created many more as well. Gangs would be chomping at the bit to grab whatever they could in all the confusion.
No they're not. The setting is Armageddon, not Necromunda. Shadow War feels more like Kill Team to me.
Though I do agree, I would really like to see the return of the actual Necromunda setting and gangs, they're a staple aspect of 40K lore.
Armageddon and Necromunda are both hive worlds. They both have hive cities and underhives. They would certainly both have hive gangs. von Strab's treason was probably an open invitation to lawless elements and created many more as well. Gangs would be chomping at the bit to grab whatever they could in all the confusion.
OK, thought you were specifically talking about the Necromunda gangs.
A generic Hive Gang mu!tipart plastic box with lots of options would be fantastic.
I would love to see forgeworld put out a more zone mortals style expansion for the game balanced for stuff like termies vs genestealers, boarding marines vs kill setvitors, etc. Maby tied into the 30k stuff.
A thallax style kill team like the nid warriors would be awesome to see. I look foreword to see what kinda support forge world comes up with for shadow war. I love the more skirmish scale so much.
Lockark wrote: I would love to see forgeworld put out a more zone mortals style expansion for the game balanced for stuff like termies vs genestealers, boarding marines vs kill setvitors, etc. Maby tied into the 30k stuff.
A thallax style kill team like the nid warriors would be awesome to see. I look foreword to see what kinda support forge world comes up with for shadow war. I love the more skirmish scale so much.
Holy crap, a Thallax kill team would suck money directly out of my wallet. It might tear a hole in my pocket it would leave so fast.
I would not expect multiple plastic hive gang Kits. However a good plastic kit with a lot of bits could build multiple hive gangs and represent an Astra militarum penal legion kit.
That would be an ideal way for gw to introduce traditional necromunda hive Gangs. However I don't think gw feels there is a big enough market for this kit....yet. However keep pushing gw to produce it and anything is possible
What has happened is that this game allows those who like Necromunda or Kill Team (which still seems a derivative of Necromunda) to scratch that itch and play skirmish games.
It has that little bit more detail and the various models behave much like how you read them in books.
Between my original Necromunda material and SOA they are incredibly similar and it would take little effort to convert anything you like rather reasonably if they were not covered by GW (Squats!).
The gang would be trivial to include into the mix.
Narrative would be easy since they would not like uninvited guests in their area.
Dense terrain like Mordenheim or Frostgrave has been of interest, irritating to play with large armies but scary fun for a squad / warband of models.
Nothing says love like open vats of hazardous waste for your friend's models to fall into so that alone needs some consideration. Craters filled with green sludge with some pipes and a kind of processing unit raises all kinds of questions: Food? fuel? useful chemical? deadly toxic and being neutralized or harvested?
Where this will shine is spurring me on to modular terrain with a game that can use it to it's fullest with bits of cover here or there.
40k games you need a good 6" solid of cover or the feature is pretty much useless.
Ahtman wrote: At this point I will wait and see what happens with the book and what exactly the contents are.
The book will be available for pre-order beginning 4/22. The pre-order period will last more than the usual one week. The contents are the same as the box set EXCEPT it will also include all the lists currently available in PDF as well as the lists for Adeptus Sororitas and Inquisition.
Is it too much to ask for a PDF of the roster sheet? I hate photocopying pages from books. I suppose I could take a picture and convert that to a PDF after a little cleanup.
BTW, I got to see the terrain in person today (mine is still on sprue). I don't know why I thought it was going to be smaller. The pieces are quite large. Another couple pieces from the standard releases will give me plenty for a 6x4 board.
Since GW already grants permission to photocopy the roster for personal use there should be no obstacle to offering it as a PDF other than the folks being busy people or not having thought about it yet. Would be a good thing to reach out about via FB.
Manchu wrote: Since GW already grants permission to photocopy the roster for personal use there should be no obstacle to offering it as a PDF other than the folks being busy people or not having thought about it yet. Would be a good thing to reach out about via FB.
I sent them a message already. I am confident they will release one at some point.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I dropped by my FLGS today and it looks like SWA is already going to be a hit. They received and sold ten copies. Tons of infantry kits were sold. People are all talking about what they are going to make for a kill team.
I might get some Eldar Guardians and Dire Avengers to make a Kill Team with. For now, just my Skitarii and Space Marines will be getting kill teams though. Or do I want to pick up some Tau or Tyranids instead? Probably Eldar since Dire Avengers are my favorite Aspect.
casvalremdeikun wrote: Or do I want to pick up some Tau or Tyranids instead? Probably Eldar since Dire Avengers are my favorite Aspect.
Aside from what comes in the core box, I have specifically bought Skitarii, GSC, Vostroyans, and Dark Eldar thanks to SW. I have wanted all of these models for as long as they have been out (or in the case of Vostroyans, as long as I have been into this IP). If there were lists for Thousand Sons and the larger AdMech, you can bet I would buy them, too! I am also really tempted by Tyranid, Necron, Craftworld, and GK. Pretty much the only team I am not interested in is Harlequins.
