Why are you singling out my post out of an ongoing discussion involving other people? I'm far from the only person here posting "hot takes" on a game we haven't seen much of yet. The majority of the past couple pages has been general discussion of game design opinions unrelated to any specific news or rumors.
I think you’re a fair target. I’ve noticed that you have a tendency to hijack threads in order to repeat the same comments (either GW rules suck or it doesn’t matter what the models look like), then argue with anyone who disagrees. It’s started to look a lot like trolling.
There are a number of threads on Epic and/or Legions down in the Specialist Games section, a good place for further discussion and project stuff that is not N&R related
Tactical Stands, Devastator Stands, Assault Stands, Scout Stands (no models for those though), Command Stands and Veteran Stands.
Comprising those were four unique models. Bolter, Commander, Missile Launcher, Jump Pack.
Everything else was done with a different colour scheme, or a pole on the base. And we got along Just Fine.
LI? The models are a bit larger, with much clearer detailing. If a given person can’t tell a painted stands of Plasma Guns from Bolters? It’s not the fault of the models. Nor a fault of the rules.
A few times playing the NetEpic Armageddon rules (the 30k) version I found I 'lost' units in that manner, missing that a support or dev squad was taken off instead of a tactical if visa-versa. It's an easy thing to do even with 8mm or larger, and especially at arms length on a tabletop (and how many gaming clubs and playing areas seem to be poorly lit? Plus my eyesight! )
Different games get around it in different ways, Leopard already mentioned colour coding bases, Flames of War (used to) have different size bases for different unit types that made them easier to recognise, and that is 15mm. It's also a good reason to have some level of abstraction, which previous versions of Epic have handled pretty well - will be interesting to see what the new version does.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: LI? The models are a bit larger, with much clearer detailing. If a given person can’t tell a painted stands of Plasma Guns from Bolters? It’s not the fault of the models. Nor a fault of the rules.
Yep. Based on what we've seen of the models so far I don't see any problem with WYSIWYG or having weapon choices matter. It's not like we're talking about 9th edition 40k's obsession with creating rules for new bolter variants that even most marine players can't tell apart on the table, heavy and special weapons are pretty clear and I don't see any need to consolidate them all into "big gun" and "basic gun".
Not a news or rumour, but I was disappointed they didn't take the opportunity to have different numbers of models per base (to date I think only the 4th ed fire support base did this?).
Lots of 6mm games do this to aid recognition (WW2 games do this pretty standard in my experience with crew served, engineers, submachine guns and riflemen using different numbers), and while they are hamstrung by stuff like marine combat squads, they still could have made Guard smaller and had a full squad of 10 on a base. Its something I will try with the old models (especially as the missile launcher has 2 men moulded together so you can get away with 9) but it will obviously require some chopping.
The_Real_Chris wrote: Not a news or rumour, but I was disappointed they didn't take the opportunity to have different numbers of models per base (to date I think only the 4th ed fire support base did this?).
It's more a question of visual and personnal taste. In previous Epic editions, players already did that, either to have more units using less models or simply for the fun of it. Nothing prevents you to specifically distinguish your own units by doing exactly that, it has no impact on the rules in the end since everything is using the same base.
As far as I'm concerned, it's more a question to follow the "standard number of marines in a squad equivalent" than a rule matter.
Tactical Stands, Devastator Stands, Assault Stands, Scout Stands (no models for those though), Command Stands and Veteran Stands.
Comprising those were four unique models. Bolter, Commander, Missile Launcher, Jump Pack.
Everything else was done with a different colour scheme, or a pole on the base. And we got along Just Fine.
LI? The models are a bit larger, with much clearer detailing. If a given person can’t tell a painted stands of Plasma Guns from Bolters? It’s not the fault of the models. Nor a fault of the rules.
The fault of the rules would be making that actually be a significant difference. Because at that scale of conflict, other than the general type of unit (tactica, dev, assault, etc) it should not matter.
IMHO, of course. Because we're supposed to be playing as the general of a battle, not as a second lieutenant in the mud micro managing their platoon.
Or I guess, it's more the fact that's not the kind of game I want to play when playing Epic. Not a fault of the system (I don't know the system), but a mismatch of expectations.
Because at that scale of conflict, other than the general type of unit (tactica, dev, assault, etc) it should not matter.
IMHO, of course. Because we're supposed to be playing as the general of a battle, not as a second lieutenant in the mud micro managing their platoon.
You confuse simplicity of rules and battle scale.
Would it be simpler not to have different kinds of weapons in the same kind of infantry ? Yes. Is it irrelevant to the scale of battles meant to be represented by this game ? No.
Because it's totally possible to have a deep, complex game system representing an Epic scale battle. It just takes longer to play...and some players are actually loving that. Not all, of course, but this game isn't meant to be a simple one as far as rule previews show. Just like Adeptus Titanicus (that could have been way simpler as well)...it is about the depth, precisely because it appeals to nostalgic players.
We’re not talking “flamer unit, melta unit, plasma unit, volkite unit” etc.
It’s Bolters, Special Weapons, Heavy Weapons. Each with a different appeal, and creating a different threat bubble within their formation, giving different options and consideration for both players.
The argument this is too complex is significantly over egging the pudding.
Disagreeing is perfectly OK, tht's why I stated it was a mismatch of expectations ^_^
We’re not talking “flamer unit, melta unit, plasma unit, volkite unit” etc.
It’s Bolters, Special Weapons, Heavy Weapons. Each with a different appeal, and creating a different threat bubble within their formation, giving different options and consideration for both players.
Aren't we, though? I thought that was specifically it: that a special weapons unit or a HW could be equipped with different weapons (which we know for a fact it's the case for vehicles). If it isn't, we're talking unit type rather than unit loadout.
And It's not a "it's too complex" argument either. The argument is "it's too fiddly for the scale of conflict", which is still of course subjective. But it is, for me.
Tanks have some choice in weapons, with larger tanks having more choice. But infantry? Seems to be “you get what your given and that’s it”.
Then, as I said above, multiple unit types it's a different thing. I mean, as long as they're not too many types, of course (dunno, like, twelve different regular marine types would be annoying xD)
Tanks have some choice in weapons, with larger tanks having more choice. But infantry? Seems to be “you get what your given and that’s it”.
yes the choice is what type of infantry are you taking, not stand by stand loadout configuration
I do expect there may be some options for command stands, ala Warmaster heroes etc being able to take special equipment but nothing beyond that, at least not now.
it will be interesting to see how Tactical Support stands are labelled up, e.g. are they just "Tactical Support" or are they specifically noted as having plasma guns (implying there may be other versions later or at least conceptually)
Maybe there is a GW guideline similar to „no models, no rules“ in place which forces the designers to come up with bespoke rules for all models, like „no rules, no models“.
So, for example, if there was only a single set of rules for „medium battle tank“ the designers would not be able to produce Predators, Sicarans and Vindicators.
The same could be true for loadouts as kits with options usually increase the sales of said product.
I‘m looking forward to a more detailed ruleset, in the hope that the system uses the finer granularity for more meaningful desicion making on and off the table.
Also, „dumbing down“ the ruleset , e.g. by reducing the number of unit types and/or loadouts, is easier than adding granularity later.
In the end, since there are many high-quality ruleset alternatives for this scale, having GW produce Epic with a detailled ruleset and a large variety of miniatures is preferable to a simplyfied ruleset and a limited miniature range, if there is indeed such a guideline.
Btw, if you include the different units from the core set, GW has already shown a dozen plastic sets for Legion Imperialis tanks and infantry alone, with more likely to follow (Land Raiders and their variants).
Which is a massive amount, in particular for a specialist game.
Other systems (like TOW) would celebrate even half that number for launch…
Worth keeping in mind 1st and 2nd Ed Epic came before 40K scale tanks had weapon options. So across all three games? A Predator had turret Autocannon, Sponson Lascannons.
Choosing to load for bear or rabbit is now kind of necessary. Just be thankful we don’t get the full suite of Predator weapon options we do in Heresy!
Seelenhaendler wrote: Maybe there is a GW guideline similar to „no models, no rules“ in place which forces the designers to come up with bespoke rules for all models, like „no rules, no models“.
So, for example, if there was only a single set of rules for „medium battle tank“ the designers would not be able to produce Predators, Sicarans and Vindicators.
The same could be true for loadouts as kits with options usually increase the sales of said product.
GW usually works the other way around, models are done first and the rules written to fit the models available
so it would be that Predators Sicarans and Vindicaters are made as models, with different weapon options and the designers get the task to make rules for them (and their options)
Tactical Stands, Devastator Stands, Assault Stands, Scout Stands (no models for those though), Command Stands and Veteran Stands.
Comprising those were four unique models. Bolter, Commander, Missile Launcher, Jump Pack.
Everything else was done with a different colour scheme, or a pole on the base. And we got along Just Fine.
LI? The models are a bit larger, with much clearer detailing. If a given person can’t tell a painted stands of Plasma Guns from Bolters? It’s not the fault of the models. Nor a fault of the rules.
The fault of the rules would be making that actually be a significant difference. Because at that scale of conflict, other than the general type of unit (tactica, dev, assault, etc) it should not matter.
IMHO, of course. Because we're supposed to be playing as the general of a battle, not as a second lieutenant in the mud micro managing their platoon.
Or I guess, it's more the fact that's not the kind of game I want to play when playing Epic. Not a fault of the system (I don't know the system), but a mismatch of expectations.
Correct. All Assault Squads should be the same. All Tactical Squads should be the same. All Devastator Squads should be the same. etc.
Having this Tactical squad do x and that tactical squad do y, because one of them has a heavy bolter and the other a missile launcher is a level of granularity that has no place here. Now, I am a just and fair god - I will allow that variant units are okay, if the variant is a unit wide difference in weapon loadout - i.e. if a devastator squad is a unit of 5 models all identically armed, then it makes sense to have one where all 5 models on the base have heavy bolters, and another where you upgraded all 5 models on the base have missile launchers - thats fair and reasonable. What doesn't make sense is for that unit to have 5 or 6 different weapon options to select from - an "anti-infantry loadout" of heavy flamers/bolters and an "anti-tank loadout" of missile launchers/lascannons should reasonably be enough - you shouldn't need to have a separate set of stats for each and every minor variation of weapon.
Seelenhaendler wrote: Maybe there is a GW guideline similar to „no models, no rules“ in place which forces the designers to come up with bespoke rules for all models, like „no rules, no models“.
So, for example, if there was only a single set of rules for „medium battle tank“ the designers would not be able to produce Predators, Sicarans and Vindicators.
The same could be true for loadouts as kits with options usually increase the sales of said product.
GW usually works the other way around, models are done first and the rules written to fit the models available
so it would be that Predators Sicarans and Vindicaters are made as models, with different weapon options and the designers get the task to make rules for them (and their options)
My point was more like someone (product management, miniatures designers) made the decision that there will be models for Predators, Sicarans and Vindicators (no hint for epic scale Vindicators yet), so the game designers had to come up with different rules for each type of tank and could not just write generic „medium battle tank“ rules that would count for all of them as this would limit the sales potential.
Basically a speculative reason why the Legions Imperialis has the level of detail it has.
Re-working of the chart thing they previewed via warcom, added some more specificity, re-ordered it. Tried to flesh out the concepts based on the stats. Added some bigger buildings/more varied building pics.
Crablezworth wrote: Re-working of the chart thing they previewed via warcom, added some more specificity, re-ordered it. Tried to flesh out the concepts based on the stats. Added some bigger buildings/more varied building pics.
Spoiler:
Much much better. Why are GW designers so bad? they could have come up with these ideas...
Crablezworth wrote: Re-working of the chart thing they previewed via warcom, added some more specificity, re-ordered it. Tried to flesh out the concepts based on the stats. Added some bigger buildings/more varied building pics.
They have a 'tech bar' of IT professionals who confer a 4+ FNP save for any vehicle within 6" which has been attacked. -1 CAF though as they are armed in sandals and summer shirts which are not combat effective.
Crablezworth wrote: Re-working of the chart thing they previewed via warcom, added some more specificity, re-ordered it. Tried to flesh out the concepts based on the stats. Added some bigger buildings/more varied building pics.
Civitas Imperialis was the name of the AT terrain product line, so I expect Militas Imperialis to likewise be the name of a set of terrain kits for this.
chaos0xomega wrote: Civitas Imperialis was the name of the AT terrain product line, so I expect Militas Imperialis to likewise be the name of a set of terrain kits for this.
If it was going by terrain product names I would have also expected to see the Manufactorum terrain in some way
chaos0xomega wrote: Civitas Imperialis was the name of the AT terrain product line, so I expect Militas Imperialis to likewise be the name of a set of terrain kits for this.
chaos0xomega wrote: Civitas Imperialis was the name of the AT terrain product line, so I expect Militas Imperialis to likewise be the name of a set of terrain kits for this.
If it was going by terrain product names I would have also expected to see the Manufactorum terrain in some way
think GW only have a pretty limited window for terrain to go with this, once people have a table or two full they won't shift much more so needs to be there on launch or the various "alternative STC pattern" stuff wins
chaos0xomega wrote: Civitas Imperialis was the name of the AT terrain product line, so I expect Militas Imperialis to likewise be the name of a set of terrain kits for this.
If it was going by terrain product names I would have also expected to see the Manufactorum terrain in some way
Maybe it gets a re-release
Spoiler:
I meant this one
And it is getting released but there isn't anything in the shown off rules that specifically calls out manufactorum terrain in the same way it does civitas terrain so I wouldn't expect Militas Imperialis and Imperialis Grandus to be future terrain sets. Just bigger buildings made from the Civitas terrain
chaos0xomega wrote: Civitas Imperialis was the name of the AT terrain product line, so I expect Militas Imperialis to likewise be the name of a set of terrain kits for this.
If it was going by terrain product names I would have also expected to see the Manufactorum terrain in some way
True, though its possible it gets re-released under the "Civitas Imperialis" label?
Just got back from a three week trip to the UK. Holy cow are GW products cheaper there. I was really hoping that LI would release while I was there but that did not happen. I managed to hold off spending money on lower cost 40K stuff however in hopes of LI.
That all said I did find two copies of Adeptus Titanicus at Warhammer stores in England. One of them came home with me. (the other one is at the Cardiff city center Warhammer shop if anyone is looking for one.) So at least I now have some titans and knight to play with. Hopefully LI will actually come out soon and I will get to actually play at some point.
BTW, did anyone see the WarCom article on Solar Auxiliary that was branded LI? They seem to indicate it may be coming soon, but still not holding my breath.
Too late now, but as I understand it the GW store on Tottenham Court Road in London is supposedly uniquely set up to allow travelers to purchase GW products at UK prices but have the products shipped (for free) from a local GW distribution hub to your home instead of having to bring it back with you. At least as far as American travelers are concerned anyway, I have a friend who happened to visit and was going to pick some stuff up, the staff informed him that they could set him up with that arrangement and ship it to his home from the US warehouse at no additional charge.
chaos0xomega wrote: Too late now, but as I understand it the GW store on Tottenham Court Road in London is supposedly uniquely set up to allow travelers to purchase GW products at UK prices but have the products shipped (for free) from a local GW distribution hub to your home instead of having to bring it back with you. At least as far as American travelers are concerned anyway, I have a friend who happened to visit and was going to pick some stuff up, the staff informed him that they could set him up with that arrangement and ship it to his home from the US warehouse at no additional charge.
Yes, thanks to this very thread, I had heard this and went there. I was so tempted to spend a ton of pounds there. But with saving up for LI I resisted. They were a really helpful store and will do exactly as you stated if you spend 100 pounds or more (not hard at a GW store.)
chaos0xomega wrote: Too late now, but as I understand it the GW store on Tottenham Court Road in London is supposedly uniquely set up to allow travelers to purchase GW products at UK prices but have the products shipped (for free) from a local GW distribution hub to your home instead of having to bring it back with you. At least as far as American travelers are concerned anyway, I have a friend who happened to visit and was going to pick some stuff up, the staff informed him that they could set him up with that arrangement and ship it to his home from the US warehouse at no additional charge.
Yes, thanks to this very thread, I had heard this and went there. I was so tempted to spend a ton of pounds there. But with saving up for LI I resisted. They were a really helpful store and will do exactly as you stated if you spend 100 pounds or more (not hard at a GW store.)
Thanks,
Duncan
If you are going to do a big order, split it into separate orders above the free shipping threshold. If you do it as one batch, there is a risk of an item being out of stock holding up the entire order for months without knowing what is going on.
schoon wrote: Yeah - while I've no reasonable back up for it, I'm thinking sometime in October will be our day.
Agreed. If I had to bet I'd say that Epic will get slotted in between the 40k space marine codex (likely the next preorder) and the new boxed set for full size HH (mid-late October).
That means a good 4-6 weeks for people to paint up their starter sets before GW release those limited knight & titan discount boxes ready for Xmas.
SU-152 wrote: Much better design from a Dakka poster.
Yes, but they're a forum poster who doesn't have to go through management to get it approved.
Not saying every employee is sharp as tacks, but we've all been there in our mundane day jobs and have had our suggestions shot down by management who just don't get it.
Just got back from a three week trip to the UK. Holy cow are GW products cheaper there. I was really hoping that LI would release while I was there but that did not happen. I managed to hold off spending money on lower cost 40K stuff however in hopes of LI.
That all said I did find two copies of Adeptus Titanicus at Warhammer stores in England. One of them came home with me. (the other one is at the Cardiff city center Warhammer shop if anyone is looking for one.) So at least I now have some titans and knight to play with. Hopefully LI will actually come out soon and I will get to actually play at some point.
BTW, did anyone see the WarCom article on Solar Auxiliary that was branded LI? They seem to indicate it may be coming soon, but still not holding my breath.
Thanks,
Duncan
Unfortunate on the LI release! Hopefully whilst in Cardiff you got a chance to go to Firestorm Games, which is one of the biggest (possibly biggest?) and best wargaming stores in the UK.
Unfortunate on the LI release! Hopefully whilst in Cardiff you got a chance to go to Firestorm Games, which is one of the biggest (possibly biggest?) and best wargaming stores in the UK.
Darn, I did not even know! Still we were pretty limited in our time in Cardiff (like everywhere else on our whirlwind tour.) Next time I will get a list of game stores before I go!
So one of the images GW put out mixed with the leaks had me thinking. The picture is of some knights but in front of them is what looks like defense lines. In the leaks there's a formation for solar aux that the fluff is basically has them establishing forward operations/defenses and as part of that they have to take two bastions. The terrain warcom article had the chart with structures, where the strongest one holds a detachment, so I'm wondering if there are more terrain kits we haven't seen yet, basically a bastion/bunker/defense line set. If a bastion is literally something that costs points there muts be a model in the works, perhaps forge world?
Crablezworth wrote: So one of the images GW put out mixed with the leaks had me thinking. The picture is of some knights but in front of them is what looks like defense lines. In the leaks there's a formation for solar aux that the fluff is basically has them establishing forward operations/defenses and as part of that they have to take two bastions. The terrain warcom article had the chart with structures, where the strongest one holds a detachment, so I'm wondering if there are more terrain kits we haven't seen yet, basically a bastion/bunker/defense line set. If a bastion is literally something that costs points there muts be a model in the works, perhaps forge world?
The leak has Solar tarantulas & rapiers listed as bastion units, so they'd be the options here at least for now.
Nothing to stop them releasing more terrain options later though. I'm sure there's a reason the bastion icon is a building rather than a tarantula or rapier.
Crablezworth wrote: So one of the images GW put out mixed with the leaks had me thinking. The picture is of some knights but in front of them is what looks like defense lines. In the leaks there's a formation for solar aux that the fluff is basically has them establishing forward operations/defenses and as part of that they have to take two bastions. The terrain warcom article had the chart with structures, where the strongest one holds a detachment, so I'm wondering if there are more terrain kits we haven't seen yet, basically a bastion/bunker/defense line set. If a bastion is literally something that costs points there muts be a model in the works, perhaps forge world?
I can't imagine anything in a GW promo pic isn't a product they plan to sell. those barricades look ok, a bit basic, could see them as being part of another set though with "barricades and ruins"
Crablezworth wrote: So one of the images GW put out mixed with the leaks had me thinking. The picture is of some knights but in front of them is what looks like defense lines. In the leaks there's a formation for solar aux that the fluff is basically has them establishing forward operations/defenses and as part of that they have to take two bastions. The terrain warcom article had the chart with structures, where the strongest one holds a detachment, so I'm wondering if there are more terrain kits we haven't seen yet, basically a bastion/bunker/defense line set. If a bastion is literally something that costs points there muts be a model in the works, perhaps forge world?
The leak has Solar tarantulas & rapiers listed as bastion units, so they'd be the options here at least for now.
Nothing to stop them releasing more terrain options later though. I'm sure there's a reason the bastion icon is a building rather than a tarantula or rapier.
Ah good point, I didn't realize those the tarantulas/rapiers were bastion.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
chaos0xomega wrote: I thought they already confirmed those barricades as being part of an upcoming release somewhere?
I can't imagine anything in a GW promo pic isn't a product they plan to sell. those barricades look ok, a bit basic, could see them as being part of another set though with "barricades and ruins"
There have been many times when terrain has just been scratch-built for the promo-shots. Biggest offender being the Ossiarch Bonereapers terrain shown in nearly all of their promo pics.
I can't imagine anything in a GW promo pic isn't a product they plan to sell. those barricades look ok, a bit basic, could see them as being part of another set though with "barricades and ruins"
There have been many times when terrain has just been scratch-built for the promo-shots. Biggest offender being the Ossiarch Bonereapers terrain shown in nearly all of their promo pics.
Malika2 wrote: Another big offender regarding terrain that never got sold was that Adeptus Titanicus train
My gut tells me they knew it'd fail outside of a plastic release. In fw resin the train itself would be silly enough, but they probably knew even diehard fans wouldn't shell out the rails.
What they should (but never will) do is make the train in resin but make it fit an actual pre-existing scale track width, then partner with one of the established track manufacturers to sell track pieces. Maybe with custom sleepers stamped with the Aquila.
Mr_Rose wrote: What they should (but never will) do is make the train in resin but make it fit an actual pre-existing scale track width, then partner with one of the established track manufacturers to sell track pieces. Maybe with custom sleepers stamped with the Aquila.
Mr_Rose wrote: What they should (but never will) do is make the train in resin but make it fit an actual pre-existing scale track width, then partner with one of the established track manufacturers to sell track pieces. Maybe with custom sleepers stamped with the Aquila.
I want a motorized monorail with app control that can still run on a printed track/rail.
Getting really stoked, gonna start painting stuff this week hopefully.
With new Space Marines getting a two week preorder window and a release on October the 14th, that pushes any potential release of Legions Imperialis even further down the road.
So October 21th at the earliest, most likely.
While I am still looking forward to the release, the delay really put a real damper on the epic enthusiasts in my local gaming club.
Already, a good third canceled their preorders and it‘s unclear if they will pick the game up down the road.
This is only anecdotal evidence of course, but the hype around the game has definitely cooled down.
Let’s hope LI can generate more interest when it finally releases and demand is not permanently crippled.
Seelenhaendler wrote: With new Space Marines getting a two week preorder window and a release on October the 14th, that pushes any potential release of Legions Imperialis even further down the road.
So October 21th at the earliest, most likely.
While I am still looking forward to the release, the delay really put a real damper on the epic enthusiasts in my local gaming club.
Already, a good third canceled their preorders and it‘s unclear if they will pick the game up down the road.
This is only anecdotal evidence of course, but the hype around the game has definitely cooled down.
Let’s hope LI can generate more interest when it finally releases and demand is not permanently crippled.
I really think the HH boxset will be first and there will probably be a week of AoS stuff in between which would push it to the 4th November which would be in line of the November release rumours that are going around
Seelenhaendler wrote: Let’s hope LI can generate more interest when it finally releases and demand is not permanently crippled.
My impression is that much of the demand is from the nostalgic/grognard crowd that played previous versions of the game, which will remain constant no matter when it's released.
But I think the quality of the rule set will have far more effect on the long term health of the line than any release date delay.
well nominal 8mm is not too far from nominal 10mm, which is nominally "N" gauge, where motor bogies etc can be bought, ditto cheapish second hand stuff to nick wheels from. will look oversized but that fits the "mooorrrr bigger" 40k asthetic and when hidden under stuff you wont see it
3d printed bodies could work, not sure how sensible it is, maybe for a diorama, but sensible has never mattered much in 40k, except to avoid it where possible
Seelenhaendler wrote: Let’s hope LI can generate more interest when it finally releases and demand is not permanently crippled.
My impression is that much of the demand is from the nostalgic/grognard crowd that played previous versions of the game, which will remain constant no matter when it's released.
But I think the quality of the rule set will have far more effect on the long term health of the line than any release date delay.
That might or might not change once it's out and it's on more venues where people can watch it play.
My impression is that much of the demand is from the nostalgic/grognard crowd that played previous versions of the game, which will remain constant no matter when it's released.
But I think the quality of the rule set will have far more effect on the long term health of the line than any release date delay.
I think you're missing a group - namely, people that have played and enjoyed AT, and thought, "You know, this would be even cooler with lots of tanks and infantry..."
Admittedly, LI is going to have simplified rules for the titans, so this might very much be a case of "be careful what you wish for". But I suspect that there are a lot of people who joined the scale with the new AT, and are interested in LI as a result.
well nominal 8mm is not too far from nominal 10mm, which is nominally "N" gauge
Wiki's model rail scale list (yes, it has one) lists N scale as 9mm, which puts it even closer to the estimates of what LI probably is.
And in any case, it's not all that important to be precise on the scales, since it's the distant future. It would look silly, but GW could release a train that fits on HO-scale rails, but otherwise matches up with the scale of AT and LI, and hand wave some odd reason why all trains are that built like that in the 31st Millennium.
well nominal 8mm is not too far from nominal 10mm, which is nominally "N" gauge
Wiki's model rail scale list (yes, it has one) lists N scale as 9mm, which puts it even closer to the estimates of what LI probably is.
Hm... N scale is a range from 1:148 to 1:160. Which is 12-13mm, depending ^^. I guess 1:160 could be considered 9mm if you're measuring to the eyes... but that's a pretty big if, and GW is defining it to the top of the head.
Usually, you'd want Z scale. Not that it matters much anyways, and I'm sure N scale would work for what we want.
I mean, N is not that big when compared to Z, and I'm sure that in the 40k setting there will be HO sized trains, and probably bigger ones too.
Its just because UK uses a different loading gauge than elsewhere, because we invented the whole system and updating it was too expensive compared to model makers just hashing something out
Dropzone monorail might work too, aesthetic is less 40k perhaps but it's a non-3d print option. Technically 10mm scale but I suspect it'll look fine sizewise with legions stuff given 30/40ks chonkyness.
Piousservant wrote: Dropzone monorail might work too, aesthetic is less 40k perhaps but it's a non-3d print option. Technically 10mm scale but I suspect it'll look fine sizewise with legions stuff given 30/40ks chonkyness.
Plus, people have been using the Drop Zone buildings in Epic for years now.
ingtaer wrote: Guys I am trying to conduct this conversation back to the platform it is meant for, please do not make terrible puns or derail things further...
What’s really cool about these models is the fact that you don’t have to glue the doors – they’re hinged, and can be opened or closed according to taste.
The forthcoming Legiones Astartes Drop Pods box contains enough parts to build four pods in either configuration. They’ll be available – much like Legions Imperialis itself – sooner than you think!
Those are neat, but, at the risk of sounding like a broken record... a box of 4 drop pods makes it clear as day that this game won't be anywhere close to financially accessible
they do look nice models, though also look like quite a bit of work for what amounts in game to a token.
they look nailed on perfect to 3d print in the closed configuration and leave that way, perhaps open for Deathstorm pods
do remember having some years back but never having enough to drop more than one detachment
Automatically Appended Next Post: wonder if the rules will be back to "put markers on a blast template above the table and turn it over to see where they land?"
I applaud LI for catering to my vision of SM warfare so perfectly. All the staples in my books, such as Tarantulas and Deathstorm Drop Pods will be represented in the core rules, zero legends nor addons required!
Two per sprue and two sprues per box sounds realistic to expect, will be interesting to see if swapping out the Deathstorm option will require magnetizing (hope not)
I don't think I'll be getting the launch box this time, unless its a stupid good deal. This time, I'd perhaps prefer just buying the rules as EPUB and buing singular kits a la carte, I've got too much minis already..
PS: With both pods getting CADded for making these, I hope we will be seeing full plastic Deathstorm pods before long.. I'd like to buy more but am hesitant to buy any more resin versions in case they get remade during HH2
leopard wrote: they do look nice models, though also look like quite a bit of work for what amounts in game to a token.
they look nailed on perfect to 3d print in the closed configuration and leave that way, perhaps open for Deathstorm pods
do remember having some years back but never having enough to drop more than one detachment
Automatically Appended Next Post: wonder if the rules will be back to "put markers on a blast template above the table and turn it over to see where they land?"
Is four of these any good for whatever is considered a standard Marine detachment? As in, do I buy a Command Squad and three squads of Marines and then one box of these can transport the whole group? Or are detachments larger and you're expected to buy several boxes of Drop Pods to get a functional detachment?
What’s really cool about these models is the fact that you don’t have to glue the doors – they’re hinged, and can be opened or closed according to taste.
The forthcoming Legiones Astartes Drop Pods box contains enough parts to build four pods in either configuration. They’ll be available – much like Legions Imperialis itself – sooner than you think!
Is "sooner than you think" the latest phrase GW's marketing monkeys learned? This is the second time within a month. It was bs then and it's bs now. I wish they'd stop writing dumb gak like that.
"sooner than you think" (said twice now) and "can you hear the pitter patter of tiny feet approaching in the distance?" could indicate a preorder hitting after SM wave, but seeing as they are behind schedule on most everything (Where's new KT Season launch box?), wouldn't yet bet money on it
Woot! Drop pods rock! I love that they are including those, but I also suspect we will need more that 4 at a time. I till be interested to see what they can carry. If you can drop dreadnaughts, that could get ugly.
An please stop with sooner than you think an$ such crap GW. Give us a date or shut up. :(
leopard wrote: they do look nice models, though also look like quite a bit of work for what amounts in game to a token.
they look nailed on perfect to 3d print in the closed configuration and leave that way, perhaps open for Deathstorm pods
do remember having some years back but never having enough to drop more than one detachment
Automatically Appended Next Post: wonder if the rules will be back to "put markers on a blast template above the table and turn it over to see where they land?"
every single model can be considered a token....
well yes, however few have previously had rules about literally dropping them on the table to see where they land, and for stuff thats static when it lands they are more "token" than most, especially the pure transport ones, nice and decorative though
When considering most of us thought it would be here weeks ago, they are talking a load of old rubbish!
Either way, the delay has allowed the hype for the release to die down and for me that means I doubt I will spend as much on it as I intended to on the original release date. I'll buy a couple of starter sets, as many tiles as I can get my hands on as they are the two sets most likely to go out of print quickly.
Everything else will likely be able to be brought this time next year in big bundle deals, or across the next few months from people with huge buyers remorse.
I have enough Epic to keep me going indefinitely and other than cool new models I've lost any interest I had for the game with the original announcement. The old editions sufficed without this new game, they will continue to do so.
What’s really cool about these models is the fact that you don’t have to glue the doors – they’re hinged, and can be opened or closed according to taste.
The forthcoming Legiones Astartes Drop Pods box contains enough parts to build four pods in either configuration. They’ll be available – much like Legions Imperialis itself – sooner than you think!
Pretty!
...but four pods per box is... not very many. I would have liked more, like the Rhino box. That way it's bound to get expensive if you want to have a representative amount.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
leopard wrote: well yes, however few have previously had rules about literally dropping them on the table to see where they land, and for stuff thats static when it lands they are more "token" than most, especially the pure transport ones, nice and decorative though
More like pop-up scenery, in our games. So, fast deliver of troops plus new terrain feature on the battlefield. It made for interesting battles.
lord_blackfang wrote: Those are neat, but, at the risk of sounding like a broken record... a box of 4 drop pods makes it clear as day that this game won't be anywhere close to financially accessible
I think this brings up one of the core problems at the value propositions we see for the new stuff. The models are great pretty much across the board with maybe one or two of the infantry models being less than perfect. But as we're all seeing, unit price is going to be really easy to calculate when it comes to vehicles, and I mean if it's more $ even at 1/4 the price of its 28mm counterpart that's probably not a good thing, They mentioned rhinos in boxes of 10, a good example of sort of the "least sexy" box, no real a or b build, maybe they'll have a few dozer blade bits or something but just using a rhino box as a standard, if its like 80$ canadian for 10 rhinos, after tax that's kind of a lot. I'm also not trying to just be negative on price, there's another layer to the problem. It's not just whether or not potential buyer sees value in the box of rhinos, it's if they also get anything out of building the rhinos or just see it as a chore or task past assembling the fist couple.
Speaking for myself, i don't mind bits if the sprue options are relevant to weaponry, like choices of turret or sponson option, but like with the drop pod, as cool as opening doors are, I don't know how fun those will be to build or how many I'd want to build. If it feels like the multipart nature of some of the vehicle kits are just sorta trying to pad the value to bridge the gap from something that used to be small and metal and in a blister to now in a large box. Competing on unit price with printing is already difficult, it becomes more complicated when the prints are also lower component and just simpler in general to get on the table in fewer steps/stages. I think it will feel a bit like being bled dry when we see individual kit prices, hopefully they will have some boxed armies with decent variety and savings.
lord_blackfang wrote:Putting functional doors on a 8mm scale (shots fired!) model is what is known in polite circles as "muckin' about" tho
They could probably have put 12 of them to a sprue if they wanted to... but they didn't want to.
How many parts on each one? How nightmarish are these going to be to assemble? I'm thinking that only 4 per box means a *lot* of tiny parts.
Unless, of course, they are resin.
At least 12 parts per. And only slightly less nightmarish than the 28mm version.
You could get away with that in resin I think but it’s way more than that in plastic I’m afraid. While they do seem to have found a way to make the harnesses a single piece per segment, we know they’re still separate from the vanes because they aren’t present in the missile pod version. The base also has to accommodate the hinge pins for the doors so it’s in two pieces, minimum. The storm bolter turret is at least two pieces and may be three or four depending on how poseable it is. The launch thruster at the top could be one piece, but the panels between the tops of the vanes have to be separate or they would have impossible undercuts and the central console is another piece.
Five vanes, doors, and harnesses is fifteen bits alone.
I'm definitely NOT building a drop pod with posable doors if it's FW resin. I have built enough AI/ATFW models to know I totally didn't enjoy the experience of supergluing my fingers as much as the model's tiny parts themselves.
As for the price, we'll just wait and see. History should teach us not to get hyped / angry in advance when we are still in the unknown.
Or we can adopt GW’s approach to the timeframe to the price: “it’ll be more than you think!” I kid, I kid…
I didn’t expect drop pods with functional doors. I don’t think I expected drop pods at all, or at least not so soon. I didn’t have drop pods on my list of must-haves, like Rhinos. But now that I see them, I admit, I want them.
I don’t think any other game has made me wish I owned a 3D printer more than this one, but I don’t have time in my life to learn yet another hobby.
Yeah I was surprised by the pods, didn't expect them, at least not for a long time. It's funny too because the internet was sure after the solar aux fluff article that they had no more rabbits up their sleeve.
Crablezworth wrote: Yeah I was surprised by the pods, didn't expect them, at least not for a long time...
It could be that the delay has caught up with the first round of follow up releases, so they could actually not have been planned for the initial release...
Crablezworth wrote: Yeah I was surprised by the pods, didn't expect them, at least not for a long time...
It could be that the delay has caught up with the first round of follow up releases, so they could actually not have been planned for the initial release...
They still got the rest of the Cities of Sigmar line to release.
But, Warhammer Day is that Oct 14th, so we could get confirmation for a late-october release or sometime in early November. mid-nov and december are devoted to the battleforce boxes and such.
SgtEeveell wrote: Didn't we have drop pods for old Epic?
ISTR that they were basically just single piece plastic blobs, like the Rhinos.
There were drop pods in v1. They were metal, and there were separate closed and opened pods, iirc - sold in the same blister.
The design was quite different too; instead of five sets of two standing harnesses and a tall, narrow profile it was wide and squat with ten individual doors that opened on what looked like individual seats for each occupant. It would be kind of cool to see that as an alternative design again but everyone seems to have forgotten it ever existed.
Shouldn’t they be Dreadclaws at this point in time? I seem to remember some lore that these more current style drop pods were adopted after the Heresy because of corruption in the machine spirits of the Dreadclaws or some such.
Shouldn’t they be Dreadclaws at this point in time? I seem to remember some lore that these more current style drop pods were adopted after the Heresy because of corruption in the machine spirits of the Dreadclaws or some such.
Regular pods were already in use (and exist in the 30k rules), the Dreadclaw has always been a separate unit.
Drop pods are something that a lot of Epic players (in Europe at least) might need to buy the official miniatures for. There isn't a great availability of proxy minis (which is funny considering how simple the concept and design should be). Vanguard no longer seem to sell their's and the Onslaught minis ones are expensive (and they don't have a European distributor any more making postage expensive). There is an 'orbital Knights' STL for 3D printing, but I haven't seen anyone selling prints of them so only an option for people with 3D printers.
Well, previous drop pods were more like a terrain feature that appears when you deep strike with your drop pod formation, since they don't move once deployed. They were treated more or less as such in previous edition of Epic. I'm not surprised people weren't that keen to buy them before, it doesn't have the same level of interactions in game than, let's say, rhinos.
4 in a box here may be more than enough in terms of rules, we will see.
Shouldn’t they be Dreadclaws at this point in time? I seem to remember some lore that these more current style drop pods were adopted after the Heresy because of corruption in the machine spirits of the Dreadclaws or some such.
Regular pods were already in use (and exist in the 30k rules), the Dreadclaw has always been a separate unit.
Normal drop pods were viewed as disposable (and needed specialist units to recover them), whereas Dreadclaws are almost aircraft in their own right. Dreadclaws are also prone to possession.
Loved this little conversion of the original, from the https://miniwars.co.uk/epic-40k/miniatures/ website (which has a full list of classic epic miniatures and available proxies if anyone doesn't know of it, it's a super useful resource)
Wow, I’m realizing I’ve had such a blind spot for Epic over the years. I swear I’ve never seen the beach ball drop pod before. I ran to get my old red/blue catalogues and lo and behold, there they are.
Also, thanks Pacific for the link. These are charming and I’ll have to take a serious look at 3rd party minis after the initial LI release.
Pacific wrote: Loved this little conversion of the original, from the https://miniwars.co.uk/epic-40k/miniatures/ website (which has a full list of classic epic miniatures and available proxies if anyone doesn't know of it, it's a super useful resource)
The ones in 3rd were six pieces, IIRC: the base and 5 identical prongs:
These drop pods are from 4th edition (Epic Armageddon); drop pod models were not included in the model range of 3rd edition (Epic 40,000). This is assuming that the models pictured are the official GW models and not forumware proxies.
They look okay, but I don't really want to be installing 5 movable doors on drop pods of this scale (and I say that as someone who has magnetised all my tiny tank turrets to better make the pew pew noises with them...)
In practice I imagine they're just going to be open the moment they land anyway.
I've always wondered how come GW never made rules for the drop pods where the doors happen to jam during the drop (lets say the doors open on a 2+), and you end up having to be a sitting duck on the table for a turn.. Would have actually made some sense to have closed pods on the table as well. Riskier drop pod deployment would feel a lot more fluffy for me, and would add interesting tradeoffs, you could play into this by making pods super cheap in points (but risking your models a bit as a trade off)
you get 10 models per DP, means 2 bases in LI so 8 bases per DP box
looking at the shown frames, and how the other models look like, 2 DP per frame and 2 frames per box while 8 bases infantry are also 2 frames so this would fit
(larger models are 1 per frame and also said to be 2 per box, so a general 2 frames per box and all boxes about the same price is what I expect here)
8 bases looks like a core Legion demi-company. TBH I wonder about the need of having a high number of drop pods in a regular army. Sure, it's nice to capture an objective with OS infantry deep in the battlefield, but it's like deep strike terminators : it's nice to have as an asset, but it's too "one-trick pony" to be really focusing its whole army with multiple detachments.
Feels like I can get away with just 2 boxes of 4 drop pods at best. If they're the price of half a box of 10 rhinos, I won't mind (I feel like I will have a "leftover" of rhinos if I take that box, IMHO).
lord_blackfang wrote: Those are neat, but, at the risk of sounding like a broken record... a box of 4 drop pods makes it clear as day that this game won't be anywhere close to financially accessible
Ugh - agreed - this does not bode well...
I forget the sound, but it's the one a 3d printer makes.
going for 3D prints, question is why even bother with LI in the first place
chance that it is a better game than net-Epic or any other version is pretty low
only reason was because of the plastic models and maybe more people playing it, if models are too expensive that won't be the case either
kodos wrote: going for 3D prints, question is why even bother with LI in the first place
For the same reason people play with last version officially supported in all games : to find a community to play with.
When LI will launch, it will be advertised in GW stores and that's a perfect time for players to show up. Popularity of which version played in local communities will then be able to follow. Either way, usually going for the current version being supported is a default way to find players more easily.
I'll stick to my prediction from early on in the preview cycle, ultimately all Legions will accomplish is the same as other Specialist Games reboots: further fragmenting the existing player base as some switch to the latest officially supported system, but total player base practically doesn't grow due to inaccessible pricing (and probably the usual Specialist Games slow release schedule)
lord_blackfang wrote: I'll stick to my prediction from early on in the preview cycle, ultimately all Legions will accomplish is the same as other Specialist Games reboots: further fragmenting the existing player base as some switch to the latest officially supported system, but total player base practically doesn't grow due to inaccessible pricing (and probably the usual Specialist Games slow release schedule)
But the money in GWs pockets will grow so counts as a success for them
Yeah, Necromunda does not get more players here
If I want to play it, it is as easy to find players doing the current official rules as those still playing the internet version
did not become any easier with the official release and I cannot see how this will be different with LI, except the rules will be really a big improvement over the other versions
Say what you want. The community playing with old rules is still happy to have LI coming, because whatever you think about LI rules, fact is new players will come to buy the new release and seek for a community to play with. That's when they can recruit new blood more easily instead of being old crabs playing in the same basket or struggling with 3rd party ways to acquire the game components. Just like Blood Bowl community gathered new players when the game finally came back after all this time with new plastic teams, just like Necromunda gained a new stream of players when it came back with new plastic kits. Plus, when miniatures are officially supported and still sold on the GW website, that means they have another public window to let new players come in at a later, yet slower pace.
Just because you don't see it right now doesn't mean it didn't happen at the time. And it will happen again with LI.
Sarouan wrote: Say what you want. The community playing with old rules is still happy to have LI coming, because whatever you think about LI rules, fact is new players will come to buy the new release and seek for a community to play with. That's when they can recruit new blood more easily instead of being old crabs playing in the same basket or struggling with 3rd party ways to acquire the game components. Just like Blood Bowl community gathered new players when the game finally came back after all this time with new plastic teams, just like Necromunda gained a new stream of players when it came back with new plastic kits. Plus, when miniatures are officially supported and still sold on the GW website, that means they have another public window to let new players come in at a later, yet slower pace.
Just because you don't see it right now doesn't mean it didn't happen at the time. And it will happen again with LI.
Yes, people buy into the new hotness. But I haven't seen a single person playing them a year after the reboot that wasn't already playing them 10 years prior
Blood Bowl was slightly different as they did not really got new rules, just the existing rules with new models/sets
and locally, BlitzBowl has done more the get new players to BB than new BB boxes
a new stream of players for Necromunda is not really there
it got the old guys playing again who were happy to finish their collection with plastic models instead of hunting down the metal on ebay
but not many new ones and most not really finish a single campaign but left early on
local scene are always different of course outside the main games (AoS and 40k) but that is the point, just because there is a new box does not essentially mean new players
specially if the only real source for gaming material is 3D printing as otherwise it is too expensive
if LI ends up with "need to 3D print" the stream of new players is the same as it was before
Yes, people buy into the new hotness. But I haven't seen a single person playing them a year after the reboot that wasn't already playing them 10 years prior
Like I said : just because you don't see it right now doesn't mean it didn't or doesn't happen. If it comforts you in your vision of "LI sucks and will fail", no problem keep going. Still doesn't make it the reality around what you don't see / don't want to see.
it doesn't matter if somewhere else it happend and therefore you cannot see it, if it does not happen were one is playing the general assumption of "it will bring new players not matter what" is not true
somewhere it will push the scene, but not everywhere and there is a good chance it will only be there were already find an 3D printing infrastructure for Epic
kodos wrote: Blood Bowl was slightly different as they did not really got new rules, just the existing rules with new models/sets
and locally, BlitzBowl has done more the get new players to BB than new BB boxes
a new stream of players for Necromunda is not really there
it got the old guys playing again who were happy to finish their collection with plastic models instead of hunting down the metal on ebay
but not many new ones and most not really finish a single campaign but left early on
local scene are always different of course outside the main games (AoS and 40k) but that is the point, just because there is a new box does not essentially mean new players
specially if the only real source for gaming material is 3D printing as otherwise it is too expensive
if LI ends up with "need to 3D print" the stream of new players is the same as it was before
Necromunda is more a narrative game than a competitive one. People playing Necromunda tend to play in small groups, just like Warcry, instead of being loud in tournaments and the Internet in general. That's why you tend not to see them if you're not part of that community. A Necromunda tournament makes no sense, but a campaign very much does.
Blood Bowl is slightly different on that matter because it was always good for tournaments, simply because of its nature of a sport game (somewhat ). So it does have a strong community online that was faithful for all these years. Epic community does organize tournaments as well, even though it's a bit more "niche".
All of these communities took advantage of when GW support the game, even if it's just selling some miniatures or let rules to download on their website. That's why Blood Bowl and Necromunda players were glad to see the games coming back, even if they weren't interested specifically in investing in the new rules. Blood Bowl community did have a debate at the time of second season changes, but most of it rolled with it because...well, it was the official version and it was easier to recruit new players that way.
That's why new version of rules is always the best way to gather new players, and the community of "rebels" playing old version always takes advantage of the situation to sneakily "steal" a few of these new players here and there to gain new followers of their vision. Either way, it's a win-win situation : GW still gets some money and communities of players get precious new blood to keep playing. And if GW shuts down the game again...doesn't matter, infrastructure and options were there before thus they will still be there after (even if some changed meanwhile, but that's life : constant change and adaptation). LI will be in the exact same situation, I believe.
Sarouan wrote: Just because you don't see it right now doesn't mean it didn't happen at the time. And it will happen again with LI.
I think Epic is one game where GW releasing their version again could actively hurt the community, because it was a game that was very well suited to 3D printing and I think that was helping to revive it before GW decided to pick it up again.
Sarouan wrote: Just because you don't see it right now doesn't mean it didn't happen at the time. And it will happen again with LI.
I think Epic is one game where GW releasing their version again could actively hurt the community, because it was a game that was very well suited to 3D printing and I think that was helping to revive it before GW decided to pick it up again.
But we'll see.
A community of maybe a couple hundred people worldwide is about to swell to a community of thousands of people. There will be the same issue with 30k where the few that stuck with the game will be loud about thinking the new version is 'hurting' them somehow, when GW isn't forcing them to do anything or play with anyone they don't want to play with.
If you don't care about the company or what they do, 3d print it all and use the net rules.
If you like the new direction and models and can swallow the price, support the company-made game, as it'll improve the chances it'll get further support.
The asinine thought-pattern is to think you can enjoy the new content while 3d printing everything and not supporting the company. If you 3d print a bunch of stuff and convince many others to do the same, don't be surprised if the new epic gets put on the back burner and doesn't get the support you want.
drbored wrote: If you don't care about the company or what they do, 3d print it all and use the net rules.
That's assuming GW doesn't become more active in taking down 3D models given that they're releasing a "competing" product, if it becomes harder to find models then that becomes less of an option.
And even if the community rules are better, people will tend to want to play GW's current rules, so I think it's more likely that either everyone jumps onto GW's new rules or the existing communities become splintered (albeit with new fans that may or may not last the distance).
But we'll see, I'm not saying that's what is going to happen, I'm just thinking it's something that could happen, GW supporting a game like Epic isn't necessarily the best thing these days. As an Epic fan I'm not really jumping up and down excited to pay GW more money to buy models I was 3D printing yesterday anyway to play what on the surface looks like a less fun rules system.
Also, I don't know how many people are like me, maybe I'm just a weirdo, but I don't really like 3D printing models I can buy. I was happy 3D printing 30 Predators at 8mm scale when GW wasn't selling them, now that I know GW are making them it's actually put me off building my Epic Space Marine armies that I had been working on because I don't like printing what GW make but I'm probably not going to pay modern GW prices to get a full army from them either. I've actually swapped more to my Epic Tyranids But mostly my Epic armies are on hold for now.
If you 3d print a bunch of stuff and convince many others to do the same, don't be surprised if the new epic gets put on the back burner and doesn't get the support you want.
That kind of goes against your previous thought of "A community of maybe a couple hundred people worldwide is about to swell to a community of thousands of people."
Sarouan wrote: 8 bases looks like a core Legion demi-company. TBH I wonder about the need of having a high number of drop pods in a regular army. Sure, it's nice to capture an objective with OS infantry deep in the battlefield, but it's like deep strike terminators : it's nice to have as an asset, but it's too "one-trick pony" to be really focusing its whole army with multiple detachments.
Feels like I can get away with just 2 boxes of 4 drop pods at best. If they're the price of half a box of 10 rhinos, I won't mind (I feel like I will have a "leftover" of rhinos if I take that box, IMHO).
Sarouan wrote: Just because you don't see it right now doesn't mean it didn't happen at the time. And it will happen again with LI.
I think Epic is one game where GW releasing their version again could actively hurt the community, because it was a game that was very well suited to 3D printing and I think that was helping to revive it before GW decided to pick it up again.
But we'll see.
I dunno about that. I feel that Titanicus brought a lot of folks to playing in scales smaller than 32mm. Legions Imperialis will probably do the same. It’ll make folks realise smaller scales can be cool too and perhaps lure them into trying other stuff as well.
Yes, Adeptus Titanicus and Aeronautica Imperialis were used as well by Epic players even though the scale "wasn't exactly right" with former Epic equivalent models. The online communities even make fan made rules to play the new models not having a previous profile before or took the opportunity to "update" existing army lists to be closer to the "official GW models".
That definitely didn't kill their communities nor stopped them from 3D printing their own models or buying from website selling "alternative Epic models".
Thinking LI will be end times for them or splitting them is a long-lived chimera that keeps coming back every time an old Specialist Game is being resurrected by GW. Blood Bowl had it, Necromunda had it, and these communities are still around. In the end, these people like the universes, the scale and the style in those games. Sure, it may not be "exactly the same as the old school version", but mostly GW does a good job at making new stuff that still captures the flavor of the original design. Which is why new miniatures are bought by new and old players alike.
Here with LI, even if the infantry is clearly a bigger scale in comparison to old school Epic marines, there's still stuff that old players will appreciate. Just the terrain alone and having gothic ruins back is already great for those who missed these Epic ruins from that time, and if not vehicles are always nice to take.
Funnily enough, on these communities I still follow, general thought is indeed to support GW's new game / range of miniatures so that they have new stuff they can use for their existing game systems for a longer while. Because they know fully well that it is sales that drives GW into maintaining games for a long period of time or not.
The ones in 3rd were six pieces, IIRC: the base and 5 identical prongs:
These drop pods are from 4th edition (Epic Armageddon); drop pod models were not included in the model range of 3rd edition (Epic 40,000). This is assuming that the models pictured are the official GW models and not forumware proxies.
No, those are official, I have one from whn I was working at GW. I don't remember getting it during the E:A era, but it must be my memory.
kodos wrote: Blood Bowl was slightly different as they did not really got new rules, just the existing rules with new models/sets
and locally, BlitzBowl has done more the get new players to BB than new BB boxes
a new stream of players for Necromunda is not really there
it got the old guys playing again who were happy to finish their collection with plastic models instead of hunting down the metal on ebay
but not many new ones and most not really finish a single campaign but left early on
local scene are always different of course outside the main games (AoS and 40k) but that is the point, just because there is a new box does not essentially mean new players
specially if the only real source for gaming material is 3D printing as otherwise it is too expensive
if LI ends up with "need to 3D print" the stream of new players is the same as it was before
Most of the Necromunda players at my very high membership gaming club (and it offshoot club) had either not played the old Necromunda, or had long since stopped. There have been regular campaigns pretty much continuously since N17 dropped, with new players joining all the time. And almost no-one completed collections with new minis. There is almost zero crossover of new minis to the old game or old minis to the new game. Only a very, very small number of us have even played the old game since the new one arrived, and I think I've only done so once. Twice at most.
Blood Bowl getting picked up again by GW brought almost 100% of the old players back into the fold, and added a bunch of new ones at my club.
I'm not 100% sure that Legions Imperialis will be the success I hope it is, but your argument doesn't ring true based on my experiences.
Dryaktylus wrote: So.... they don't talk about it in the text, but the cover is pretty clear:
Spoiler:
Well...
Warhammer Community wrote:The Warhammer 40,000 Tale of Four Warlords continues alongside Crusade rules for the Tome Keepers, while Warcry gets a dose of Courage and Cruelty with quests and artefacts for the Vulkyn Fyreslayers and Kruleboyz Monsta-killaz, and you can whet your appetite for the upcoming Legions Imperialis in an early battle report.
Unfortunately, with GW now appearing to be on a 2 week pre-order schedule (Space Marine pre-orders are 2 week window, todays age of sigmar previews also indicated 2 week window), it looks like we are unlikely to have LI released before October 28th (unless they dip back to a 1 week schedule starting October 14th, in which case its October 21st).
"Early battle report" also makes it sound like we might not get the game before November possibly.
One good thing is today confirmed that it's not an empty week for preorders next saturday. Warcry and Underworlds stuff, yes, but at least that wont be taking up another week in October *after* space marines get through.
"Early battle report" also makes it sound like we might not get the game before November possibly.
"Early" suggests that the magazine will be out before the game is. But the fact that they're releasing it in this issue could indicate that they expect the game will release before the next issue comes out.
Speculation, of course. Take it with a grain of salt.
Fifty wrote: I'm not 100% sure that Legions Imperialis will be the success I hope it is, but your argument doesn't ring true based on my experiences.
yeah, the point was that just because it is a GW game does not necessarily mean that everywhere around the world a lot of new people will come and play it, just because this is the case for 40k does not mean it is the same with the niche games
so even with LI being a success it does not translate to "easier to find opponents than with net-Epic for everyone", specially if it ends up being expensive
November has been rumoured for a while now.
Also that it took the slot in November that was originally meant for The Old World. An TOW reveal would have likely happened at Warhammer day on the 14th as that will also be the week their 40 years of Warhammer articles end. With a reveal on the 14th it could have gotten a preorder on the 21st but I think that would have been too close so the earliest preorder would have likely been the 28th with a release on the 4th.
But since it seems they will keep the 2 week preorders for now since their supply chain is a bit scuffed, preorder on the 28th would mean release on the 11th which would fit pretty nicely for Legions Imperialis
schoon wrote: Regardless of the exact release date, the Battle Report wouldn't be there unless it's close.
I'm happy to regard that as a positive thing.
I thought WDs were now wrote months in advance. I guess this battle report was written assuming the game was out already.
Regardless, the release won't be far off now surely, so this will time ok.
more like weeks in advance with adjustments in that time scale being possible
lord_blackfang wrote: I'll stick to my prediction from early on in the preview cycle, ultimately all Legions will accomplish is the same as other Specialist Games reboots: further fragmenting the existing player base as some switch to the latest officially supported system, but total player base practically doesn't grow due to inaccessible pricing (and probably the usual Specialist Games slow release schedule)
Well its mixed.
AI was just odd but undoubtedly got more people playing with its simplified ruleset.
AT was more of a stand alone considering how people played mainly Epic not AT from before.
Bloodbowl trots merrily along with GW more sticking their oar in than actually driving it. That seems more to be done by the computer game and the out of GW's control 3rd party market is something GW no doubt fears for its other ranges.
Kill team wasn't really a SG Underworlds and warcry are something new.
Necromunda is a gak show in terms of getting releases to customers. They seem to have decided on their margin and production level and produce at that level without any attempt to grow market. Frustrates many retailers.
Quest was one and done and odd with a disjointed set of systems.
Bit like the HH boxes which could have been a great series.
I'm not sure how bothered GW is by 3rd party producers for their games. For BB for example, the FB group was filled with people before joking about trying to get their hands on the new Vampire team, to the point where there were jokes every month when new releases were shown and the Vampire team wasn't amongst them. This is despite the really quite sizable 3rd party industry that literally kept the game massively popular (by far the most popular of the SG line I think) in the decade or so that it wasn't officially supported and there being probably 5 or 6 quality lines of miniatures available of Vampire teams. A lot of the time people just want the official miniatures, especially the newbies to the community, and I think it will be the same with LI.
Community wise I don't think LI will have the same impact on Epic as it did on Necromunda, simply because there isn't the same solidified community to fragment. It's much smaller in number, and people I think tend to just play whichever edition is popular local to them, so you have groups of Titan Legions, Armageddon, Epic 40K or any of the later community editions. Necromunda had an extremely well defined and honed ruleset with the community edition that nearly everyone played, and there was an amount of upset when the new game arrived, especially as the rules definitely left something to be desired in terms of the campaign and not all gangs being playable from day 1.
The new Blood Bowl was 99% the same as the previous version, other than a few token changes put in for the sake of not printing the same version of the rules exactly, so everyone just slipped into the new edition and carried on exactly as they had before.. their passage aided by the tears of Elf team players!
kodos wrote: going for 3D prints, question is why even bother with LI in the first place
chance that it is a better game than net-Epic or any other version is pretty low
only reason was because of the plastic models and maybe more people playing it, if models are too expensive that won't be the case either
Probably!
And I don't think 3D printing has gotten to the point where it is going to be something that many (the majority?) gamers will be able to take advantage of - yet!
kodos wrote: going for 3D prints, question is why even bother with LI in the first place
chance that it is a better game than net-Epic or any other version is pretty low
only reason was because of the plastic models and maybe more people playing it, if models are too expensive that won't be the case either
Probably!
And I don't think 3D printing has gotten to the point where it is going to be something that many (the majority?) gamers will be able to take advantage of - yet!
I have 4, 3000 point, 8mm armies sitting in boxes to be painted that cost a grand total of $500.
It's quite easy to find the files and someone to print them for a reasonable price.
Some of the files used even came from the main source themselves.
so in addition to find someone to play, find the time and mood to paint, you also need to find the files and find someone to print them (at a reasonable price, and good produced)
I can see why a lot still want to order plastic models, if they are reasonable priced
kodos wrote: so in addition to find someone to play, find the time and mood to paint, you also need to find the files and find someone to print them (at a reasonable price, and good produced)
I can see why a lot still want to order plastic models, if they are reasonable priced
I can print my own, I have a fair few files, however if the plastics are at a reasonable price I will still buy some, maybe not for everything (e.g. Rhinos, drop pods and similar stuff where quite a few are needed) but I'll still get some - if only to try and contribute to the game actually being supported and so that the local shop actually stocks it
Yes I am probably in the same boat. I already have a Marine Legion/Horde so will get the rules and the Solar Auxiliary infantry. Although I am not a fan of the quite archaic aesthetic of the vehicles; I have always thought the Crusade/Heresy era should have looked a bit more modern/sci-fi than the pseudo-WW2 style of the LI tanks we have seen so far - so I will probably combine the LI infantry with vehicles from Vanguard or another small scale miniature producer.
kodos wrote: so in addition to find someone to play, find the time and mood to paint, you also need to find the files and find someone to print them (at a reasonable price, and good produced)
I can see why a lot still want to order plastic models, if they are reasonable priced
I mean, a night of listening to something on Youtube and a basic knowledge of Google can solve 2 of those problems. In fact, finding someone to print stuff is quite easy as there are plenty of people clamoring to print stuff for others.
If you have no one to play with, that's neither here nor there to the problem, and the mood to paint isn't either as they both apply to either side.
Point is, unless you are after "Official" minis, price is the only sticking point. At this time there's like 3 places in the entire world that *require* Official GW model use.
As I said above, I have access to a printer that has access to "Official" GW stls, so unless someone knows the *feel* of the minis a person can't tell.
Pacific wrote: Yes I am probably in the same boat. I already have a Marine Legion/Horde so will get the rules and the Solar Auxiliary infantry. Although I am not a fan of the quite archaic aesthetic of the vehicles; I have always thought the Crusade/Heresy era should have looked a bit more modern/sci-fi than the pseudo-WW2 style of the LI tanks we have seen so far - so I will probably combine the LI infantry with vehicles from Vanguard or another small scale miniature producer.
The flyers look pretty modern, they also have the arvus lighter as a transport that looks pretty modern looking.
Yes the fliers look great, I love the design of the Arvus actually - it does look a bit more modern.
For some of the other vehicles they have gone for a more utilitarian, gothic look to the design, which I associate with 40k rather than 30k, and I think lost a chance to differentiate how the design might have changed over 10,000 years.
Spoiler:
But, realise that's very much a subjective thing! It does make it fortunate that other designs and sculpts are available.
Pacific wrote: Yes the fliers look great, I love the design of the Arvus actually - it does look a bit more modern.
For some of the other vehicles they have gone for a more utilitarian, gothic look to the design, which I associate with 40k rather than 30k, and I think lost a chance to differentiate how the design might have changed over 10,000 years.
Spoiler:
But, realise that's very much a subjective thing! It does make it fortunate that other designs and sculpts are available.
They look decent, I feel like there's a lot of ways to paint them too, I went with a bit of a boring urban look but lots of possibilities.
Pacific wrote: Yes the fliers look great, I love the design of the Arvus actually - it does look a bit more modern.
For some of the other vehicles they have gone for a more utilitarian, gothic look to the design, which I associate with 40k rather than 30k, and I think lost a chance to differentiate how the design might have changed over 10,000 years.
Spoiler:
But, realise that's very much a subjective thing! It does make it fortunate that other designs and sculpts are available.
As a connoisseur of Mk.III Marines I don't see how rivets and trims aren't a 30k look. But in this particular example, I think 90% of the look is just down to the color scheme. Just look at those track sections. They're basically the same design as Leman Russ and Chimera chassis, but GW went full ghetto on them and gave them golden hubcaps. And then some. If you paint the tank like people have painted their Imperial Guard tanks for decades, you won't end up with a rolling bling cathedral. Just a normal tank, albeit a riveted instead of welded one.
Though maybe you'll get lucky with Squats if they are put in Legions Imperials, too. The Dark Age look is a lot sleeker.
Javelin and Proteus speeders are fast-moving weapon platforms which scoot around columns of tanks to fire on their exposed flanks or catch infantry squads unaware. The box can build four Javelin Land Speeders and four Proteus Land Speeders.
Also included are six bases of Scimitar Jet bikes, each featuring two jet bikes, and four bases of Outrider bikes, each featuring three cycles. These nimble raiders are superb for snatching objectives and performing hit-and-run attacks on slow line infantry and stationary fire support emplacements.*
Nice to see the classic speeders are in the game, given I printed some that still need painting.
that actually doesn't look a bad box (price could change that of course). hints more at units sizes being 4 for most and either 3 or 6 for the bikes, and maybe the others being four to start and able to take more.
It seems like the bikes and jetbikes are on what looks to be 32's, first thing we've seen other than flyers not on a 25mm base. The javelins looks a bit weird with their guns underslung, odd change.
tauist wrote: These little speeders give me hope that we will also be seeing them in plastic for 28mil some time in the future
EDIT: Looks like the speeders have two weapon options, one with multimelta and flamer, one with HB and plasma
yes, will have to see if that matters in the game or not though, given it appears you get two of each type, or if it does matter if there are any options or its fixed as 2+2 as the box has that.
three bikes on a stand makes a change to the two on a stand last time I played, though everyone I played against put one on a stand and used that, made painting easier as well
Loving those little babies. Didn't think we'd get javelins and real Land Speeders. Makes me wonder what's next. Spartan box and it's variants? Shadowsword/Stormblade box of Auxilia? What a time to be alive!
Really glad to see so much support for LI. GW seems to be taking out all the stops with tons of options.
Anyone notice that we have gotten no stats or rules with the last few previews? Very disappointing. I wish they would reveal more rules and things useful for list building.
tauist wrote: These little speeders give me hope that we will also be seeing them in plastic for 28mil some time in the future
EDIT: Looks like the speeders have two weapon options, one with multimelta and flamer, one with HB and plasma
yes, will have to see if that matters in the game or not though, given it appears you get two of each type, or if it does matter if there are any options or its fixed as 2+2 as the box has that.
three bikes on a stand makes a change to the two on a stand last time I played, though everyone I played against put one on a stand and used that, made painting easier as well
Based on previous statements, A. It will have game play effect. Different weapon loads seem supported.
2. So far when there are options shown, they include enough to make the whole kit that way. So I suspect you can arm your units with any combinations you want. Not sure how to magnetize such little things however.
The models look fantastic. My only issue is that the 'best model making company in the world' insists on having a flying stand that glues onto a pre-textured terrain base. Just awful.
A drilled hole into the base and a clear straight old fashioned flying stand stalk would look far better. I guess if the box is affordable, that will be something for me to do.
vadersson wrote: Really glad to see so much support for LI. GW seems to be taking out all the stops with tons of options.
Anyone notice that we have gotten no stats or rules with the last few previews? Very disappointing. I wish they would reveal more rules and things useful for list building.
They are probably saving up any rules article for launch as they will need to generate some hype again.
After the delay they turned back the LI reveals for a while but with last weeks drop-pod, this week fast attack and a confirmation that next week will be another LI reveal it feels to me like we are getting close to the possible launch now. Will be interesting to see when they start up other articles like rules and fluff again
They are probably saving up any rules article for launch as they will need to generate some hype again.
After the delay they turned back the LI reveals for a while but with last weeks drop-pod, this week fast attack and a confirmation that next week will be another LI reveal it feels to me like we are getting close to the possible launch now. Will be interesting to see when they start up other articles like rules and fluff again
Yeah this certainly feels like the hype train is building up steam again. Wonder if we'll get the preorder announcement this Sunday with another two-week period, and product in stores on Oct 28th?
II think this delay in printing will be to their benefit at this point.
Having all these extra marines + whatever else they reveal ready from the get go means you immediately theme your Marine armies how you want. Fast stuff in one box? White Scars. Siege units? Iron Warriors or Death Guard.
It does look very good in terms of models, compared to HH2, this time almost every Legion can be represented on the tabletop early on. All I'm personally missing at this stage are Land Raiders and Whirlwinds, and my bingo card is all set!
Kind of funny that I might be able to complete my Epic scale IXth Legion builds before my 28mm version of the same army
lord_blackfang wrote: Loving those. Means they have CAD models for HH fast attack so we might see them in full size too.
I feel like theres been enough WarCom interviews where the designers have stated that they need to do pretty significant amounts of digital resculpting to translate standard scale to epic scale that we should know better than assume that "having CAD models" means something is imminent, etc.
That being said, we already have the scimitar jetbikes in plastic, and the original javelin landspeeders from forgworld were done in CAD, as well as the Proteus, so theres no real new information here except maybe the Outrider bikes which I'm pretty sure were CAD from forgeworld but not 100%. Converting the files to be workable as a plastic kit instead of resin probably takes as much work as converting them from standard size to epic size.
Tyranid Horde wrote: II think this delay in printing will be to their benefit at this point. Having all these extra marines + whatever else they reveal ready from the get go means you immediately theme your Marine armies how you want. Fast stuff in one box? White Scars. Siege units? Iron Warriors or Death Guard. It is a shame HH isn't like this!
It will also benefit them in terms of dissuading people from 3D printing stuff that hasn't released yet. Theres the segment of people that have already printed up full armie, but then theres the segment of people who are willing to buy the real thing, but really want unit xyz and aren't patient enough to wait months wondering if/when GW might release a certain unit, etc. Showcasing that these units will be supported and featured eliminates that uncertainty and makes it less likely they will go down the unofficial route.
Yeah, the contents are exactly what was shown in the photos.
4x Javelin speeder.
4x Proteus speeder.
4x bases of bikes (3 minis on each).
6x bases of jet bikes (2 minis on each).
Gimgamgoo wrote: The models look fantastic. My only issue is that the 'best model making company in the world' insists on having a flying stand that glues onto a pre-textured terrain base. Just awful.
Yeah, agreed on this point.
But the hobbyist in me thinks I would have changed it anyway to vary the height, etc.
Well, substituting the flight stand with a pin is way easier than the other way around. So I am fine with the flight stands the models come with.
On another note, with so many plastic kits previewed already, what‘s left?
For Marines the obivous omissions are:
Land Raider and its variants
Artillery like the Whirlwind
Assault Infantry, at least I hope there is a sprue with more than a single Assault Marine and Terminator stand each
Legion specific stuff will likely be in resin as they alluded to in one of the early articles.
However, a sprue with a primarch and his honor guard could be an option.
I am not familiar with Solar Auxilia.
So what do you think is on the table for them?
Baneblade variants?
APCs?
Seelenhaendler wrote: Well, substituting the flight stand with a pin is way easier than the other way around. So I am fine with the flight stands the models come with.
On another note, with so many plastic kits previewed already, what‘s left?
For Marines the obivous omissions are:
Land Raider and its variants
Artillery like the Whirlwind
Assault Infantry, at least I hope there is a sprue with more than a single Assault Marine and Terminator stand each
Legion specific stuff will likely be in resin as they alluded to in one of the early articles.
However, a sprue with a primarch and his honor guard could be an option.
I am not familiar with Solar Auxilia.
So what do you think is on the table for them?
Baneblade variants?
APCs?
Compared to 32mm HH for marines infantry there are Despoiler, Destroyer, Breacher, Reconnaissance and Scout Squads
For Tanks we have the Sabre, Vindicator, Scorpius, Arquitor, Spartan and Proteus. And then different Super-Heavies like Cerberus/Typhon, Glaive/Fellblade/Falchion, Stormbird and Mastodon.
We might also see a few different leader options like a Terminator Praetor squad but unlikely to be anytime soon
With this choice of words: "Join us again next week for another Heresy Thursday, which the Warhammer Community reconnaissance squad tells us is more miniatures for the hotly awaited Legions Imperialis." I would expect the Reconnaissance and probably scout squads next week, however I don't think they would have a sprue on their own but I have no idea what else they could be paired with
Same for the Despoiler, Destroyer and Breacher Squads. They don't really fit together as a theme but also have nothing else left to match with.
For the tanks its easier. There will probably be an artillary box with the Vindicator, Scorpius and Arquitor, a Land Raider Box with Spartan, Proteus and maybe the Cerberus/Typhon. But the Sabre again doesn't really fit anything here.
The Glaive/Fellblade/Falchion could be a single box or at least the Glaive and Fellblade would be with the Falchion maybe being a resin upgrade? Stormbird and Mastodon would be solo boxes.
But I wouldn't expect any of the Super heavies with the exception of the Cerberus/Typhon anytime soon.
For Solar Auxilia just going by the HH Liber Imperium so not counting any Legacies model which we already got some from in the form of the Baneblade we still need a Transport box with Dracosans and Auroxes but other than that there are just Super Heavies and the Valdor Tank Destroyer left. But of course we could also see completely new stuff like the new Sentinels and then all the Legacies stuff
I give about a zero percent chance of them not doing land raiders. Hell, tiny Mk2b land raiders was one of the big selling points of epic 40K back in the day; got their own white dwarf article and everything.
Mr_Rose wrote: I give about a zero percent chance of them not doing land raiders. Hell, tiny Mk2b land raiders was one of the big selling points of epic 40K back in the day; got their own white dwarf article and everything.
There is a 0% chance they aren't doing Land Raiders but there is a pretty good chance there won't be any at launch or in the first few waves depending on how fast they will be releasing everything they showed until now.
Its likely the pastebin stats leaks where from the core book in the launch box so everything they showed off that wasn't in that was probably meant to be in a second or later wave.
Those kits would be the Drop Pods, the fast attack box from yesterday and the Solar Auxilia artillery box. Thats just three kits so likely all part of the second wave after the launchbox and the inital wave. That wave will probably have a few more kits so possibly also a Land Raider box. The question is just if they will still keep that release schedule up and wait a while after the launch or if they will release everything at once due to the delays
Mr_Rose wrote: I give about a zero percent chance of them not doing land raiders. Hell, tiny Mk2b land raiders was one of the big selling points of epic 40K back in the day; got their own white dwarf article and everything.
Yep when they're throwing Rapiers and Drop Pods and Proteus Speeders at us there's no way there aren't Land Raiders. I'd also assume most or all of the Spartan chassis "superheavies"
I wonder why the Javelins have underslung weapons rather than one of the marines being a gunner... limitation of the scale, or maybe a minor re-design for inevitable 30K sized plastic?
Xirix wrote: I wonder why the Javelins have underslung weapons rather than one of the marines being a gunner... limitation of the scale, or maybe a minor re-design for inevitable 30K sized plastic?
My guess it to make the bottom gun compatible with the Proteus and/or reduce the sprue space that would be necessary for a complex top gunner
Xirix wrote: I wonder why the Javelins have underslung weapons rather than one of the marines being a gunner... limitation of the scale, or maybe a minor re-design for inevitable 30K sized plastic?
My guess it to make the bottom gun compatible with the Proteus and/or reduce the sprue space that would be necessary for a complex top gunner
Or maybe to make it easier to spot from a distance?
There are a few posts swirling around the FB Epic/LI community about new mention of delays, but I can't get a response on whether this is just referring to the original delay or further ones - can anyone verify?
VAYASEN wrote: Any advice on what terrain to buy/print regards scale yet to get a head start?
Im clueless re 3d printing so if thats the way forward, can anyone explain/show where to find it for the right scale etc?
Does any current game have suitable scale terrain etc?
There are also a bunch of threads down in that section on ongoing projects, hopes/fears for the new system and things of that nature, which will hopefully keep you going and probably a better place to ask questions.
Pacific wrote: There are a few posts swirling around the FB Epic/LI community about new mention of delays, but I can't get a response on whether this is just referring to the original delay or further ones - can anyone verify?
the only thing I have seen was people expecting the pre-order starting the previous weekend and now talk about delays as it did not happen
Wondering what this Thursday’s reveal is gonna be.
Only with Only Murders In The Building and Ahsoka being done and dusted for this season? I’ve nowt else nerd wise to look forward to between now and then.
Xirix wrote: I wonder why the Javelins have underslung weapons rather than one of the marines being a gunner... limitation of the scale, or maybe a minor re-design for inevitable 30K sized plastic?
if its a separate piece then its likely down to being able to just make one set of weapons for land speeders ubiquitous to both chassis.
As wonderful as this Legions thing is, its rather tragic they haven't announced anything new for Titanicus in the meantime aside from plastic direwolves and bundle boxes.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Only with Only Murders In The Building and Ahsoka being done and dusted for this season? I’ve nowt else nerd wise to look forward to between now and then.
The battle report they made for Titanicus was brilliant so hopefully this ought to be good.
Bit of an off-topic niggle, but considering they mention the month of Halloween, there's nothing for Cursed City - the most Halloween-themed product in GW's range. Not even Blood Bowl, with it's scary'n'spooky teams...
leopard wrote: So the main rulebook is incomplete and doesn't cover all units they have shown?
this is a bit of a downside, would be fine with something similar to HH - a rulebook and then pick the add on for the faction you want
this seems like they are going back to "how many books can you carry?"
Yeah, if they insist on selling you multiple books, they should still make sure that an army's rules can all be found in the same book. And format them well for that matter.
Chopped up rules are one of the most irritating things about modern GW games.
leopard wrote: So the main rulebook is incomplete and doesn't cover all units they have shown?
this is a bit of a downside, would be fine with something similar to HH - a rulebook and then pick the add on for the faction you want
this seems like they are going back to "how many books can you carry?"
Yeah, if they insist on selling you multiple books, they should still make sure that an army's rules can all be found in the same book. And format them well for that matter.
Chopped up rules are one of the most irritating things about modern GW games.
^^^^ this, let me bring a rulebook, ideally without 80% of its weight being fluff thats nice but not needed for the game, and then one other book for the army, and maybe some scenario/campaign book
if I need to start lugging heavy books about for rules for one or two units I hope GW don't get irate when such starts to be obtained by alternative means. I flat out don't play enough games to want to drop ££££ on entire books for one or two pages
On the positive side, its good to have a core book that contains enough units to get up and running, and to also include counters. Having to purchase two books when breaking in with a new game is soul destroying.
I really hope they will consider epub. I loved 7th(?) Ed Warhammer and Kill Team 2018 since I could get the rules on line. One tablet is a lot lighter.
GW should really put rules free online. I assume they make more money selling mins and fiction than just rules. :(. The rules are the gateway drug to minis.
leopard wrote: So the main rulebook is incomplete and doesn't cover all units they have shown?
this is a bit of a downside, would be fine with something similar to HH - a rulebook and then pick the add on for the faction you want
this seems like they are going back to "how many books can you carry?"
Its because those units wouldn't have been released at the original launch but in a later wave. And GW won't put units in the book they haven't announced yet.
On the other hand that line about the next book seems to have been deleted from the article because I can't find it anymore so seems likely its going to be the Thursday article and they unintentionally leaked it already
SamusDrake wrote: On the positive side, its good to have a core book that contains enough units to get up and running, and to also include counters. Having to purchase two books when breaking in with a new game is soul destroying.
The last edition I bought of Epic managed to have the full rules and the full lists for all the armies it included (which was more than two, let me tell ya).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Matrindur wrote: Its because those units wouldn't have been released at the original launch but in a later wave. And GW won't put units in the book they haven't announced yet
That doesn't cut it anymore, for me. I've seen where that leads already with GW games. No more, thanks.
So, sounds likely that this will be an eternal rules treadmill specialist game like Necromunda then, possibly even more obnoxious as presumably every player will need every book. I think we're up to like 3 separate reasons that each individually would make me hard pass on the game.
Matrindur wrote: Its because those units wouldn't have been released at the original launch but in a later wave. And GW won't put units in the book they haven't announced yet
That doesn't cut it anymore, for me. I've seen where that leads already with GW games. No more, thanks.
Not saying its good, just that that is how GW does things so its exactly what I expected.
I could see them release those rules for free online as they have been doing that more in recent times. Just thinking about the recent Ironjawz supplement which was in a campaign book but also completely released for free online even including the lore paragraphs. And since everything will likely release close together due to the delay I could see that also happening here
Matrindur wrote: Its because those units wouldn't have been released at the original launch but in a later wave. And GW won't put units in the book they haven't announced yet
That doesn't cut it anymore, for me. I've seen where that leads already with GW games. No more, thanks.
Not saying its good, just that that is how GW does things so its exactly what I expected.
I could see them release those rules for free online as they have been doing that more in recent times. Just thinking about the recent Ironjawz supplement which was in a campaign book but also completely released for free online even including the lore paragraphs. And since everything will likely release close together due to the delay I could see that also happening here
And that's why I said that's quite enough for me. I just don't want to follow that kind of release churn.
On the other hand that line about the next book seems to have been deleted from the article because I can't find it anymore so seems likely its going to be the Thursday article and they unintentionally leaked it already
The blurb about the Great Slaughter is actually in the text box in he article in the magazine, not the preview article. So no change at least.
I do wish GW would not try and be EA. I prefer all the rules to not be spread over 50 zillion books. But unfortunately that is kind of the GW way. Maybe the box sets will come with rule cards or something.
And the weird bit is they're not always like this. HH has the second non-armybook expansion coming out now but I've never felt like the rulebook + one army book wasn't providing me the full game. Expansions actually are expansions with fringe additional options and not core content that was cut to nickel and dime me.
The last edition I bought of Epic managed to have the full rules and the full lists for all the armies it included (which was more than two, let me tell ya).
Its been a life time ago, but I think 2nd edition had it all in the one rules booklet. Might be wrong though.
Expansion announced before the first book has been published, for something as basic as a land speeder? L O L/slow clap
I love how there are a bunch of people here coming back to GW are exclaiming "what on earth is this?!" Meanwhile the guys that came back with Necromunda, horribly scarred, their backs bowed from carrying 9 hardbacks to play a game, respond gruffly as they emerge from a trapdoor "this is how we exist now" : D
The last edition I bought of Epic managed to have the full rules and the full lists for all the armies it included (which was more than two, let me tell ya).
Its been a life time ago, but I think 2nd edition had it all in the one rules booklet. Might be wrong though.
?
2nd edition had the race-specific boxed supplements, with new rules and detachment cards for that race / organization.
Pacific wrote: Expansion announced before the first book has been published, for something as basic as a land speeder? L O L/slow clap
I love how there are a bunch of people here coming back to GW are exclaiming "what on earth is this?!" Meanwhile the guys that came back with Necromunda, horribly scarred, their backs bowed from carrying 9 hardbacks to play a game, respond gruffly as they emerge from a trapdoor "this is how we exist now" : D
Just found the contents page, but its just Marines, Orks and Eldar. Not sure it was everything, though.
It wasn't. All former editions had expansions, nothing was "everything in a single book".
Difference is that there was a significantly longer amount of time between them being announced at the time. There was no Warhammer Community too.
Basically, the fact that nowadays information / previews / whatever you call it go way faster than before (it was more a question of years rather than weeks) make it feel like GW treat their games differently. They don't. Even Mordheim didn't have everything in its rulebook (remember Town Cryers ? They weren't free - either you bought the White Dwarf containing them, either the Town Cryer magazines themselves later- and they were akind to expansions as well).
But nowadays, when you play these old editions, you go on sites / communities that took their time compiling everything in one place "for free", that makes it look like it was all out day one at release when it was sold and supported by GW. I call it "nostalgia bias".
Here, with LI, it's about units more than new armies (given the background, it's not really surprising since it's basically the same factions with different color schemes that can be taken in one big blob army). But even at the time of old Epic editions, there were sometimes new units added afterwards simply because...well, they weren't made at the time of the box release, simply put.
Is it good / bad ? Personnal taste. I do obviously prefer to have a book with everything inside to build my armies, but well...it's Horus Heresy. I could see it as a conflict's evolution justification : expansion is about the war evolving with time, and thus having new technologies / units coming later. Or something like that. Either way, it's not a question of "DLC" or nonsense like this. GW sell miniatures, and they sell rules to play them. They always acted like this before. A DLC is a downloadable content for video games, that you can't do anything with itself. With GW, at least you have the miniatures and the books don't just have rules in them, they also have other stuff like background you can enjoy by itself alone. They have nothing in common.
There is a big difference between day-one DLC and a genuine expansion which has grown organically as the game itself has been developed, and needs a further rules release further down the line.
I don't know why there is the need to have to point that out..
Pacific wrote: There is a big difference between day-one DLC and a genuine expansion which has grown organically as the game itself has been developed, and needs a further rules release further down the line.
I don't know why there is the need to have to point that out..
The need comes when someone talks about "day-one DLC" when it's not and has nothing in common at all with the way video games are handled.
Especially about a game that isn't even released yet so far because of delays.
kodos wrote: because this was planned as a genuine expansion but a stupid mistake delayed the release
It was planned as an expansion that sells you something as basic as a drop pod or land speeder rules. There's nothing "genuine" about it. It's not additional content, it's core content removed from the core product to obfuscate the fact they're charging you hundreds of dollars just to collect all the bits of your rulebook, which is exactly the same thing video game companies do. In contrast with the additional Mordheim content that was mentioned above as a clear bad faith argument, that was published as it was developed (much of it was fan made, too) and was adding things onto an already complete game.
kodos wrote: well, in that case of Legion Imperialis, it is not core content
it might have been in other games, but this is a new one with new core content and new expansions
or people still think that this is just Epic in everything but the name?
Explain to me how Drop Pods and Land Speeders are not core content for Space Marines, and if they are not, why were the rules and models developed concurrently with the core content?
Vorian wrote: Epic 40k was just the armies book in the box, no? It's been a long time
Epic 40k had three books in the box: the rulebook, the hobby/scenarios book and the armies book, with: Imperium (IG, Marines, Titans, et al), Orks, Chaos, Eldars and Tyranids.
I neither know the rules or the army lists, so I cannot tell you if drop pods are core content for Legion Imperialis Space Marines
and based on the release we have seen, they are not part of it but an expansion
and I am pretty sure that if LI would have released as planned, everyone would be hyped about the first expansion and the new models because how fun the game is and that the new content makes it even more fun
but now, no one has to defend to himself the money they wasted it happens to be that GW makes bad games and split the rules in ways to make the maximum profit on minimum investment
count me surprised as as this is their main sales strategy for years now but no one expected it with LI, because this time they are different and not going to milk the people as much as they can in the first 3 months
kodos wrote: because this was planned as a genuine expansion but a stupid mistake delayed the release
It was planned as an expansion that sells you something as basic as a drop pod or land speeder rules. There's nothing "genuine" about it. It's not additional content, it's core content removed from the core product to obfuscate the fact they're charging you hundreds of dollars just to collect all the bits of your rulebook, which is exactly the same thing video game companies do. In contrast with the additional Mordheim content that was mentioned above as a clear bad faith argument, that was published as it was developed (much of it was fan made, too) and was adding things onto an already complete game.
Considering that we have barely half a sentence worth of information about this supplement, isn't it a pretty big assumption that this book is the only place to get official rules for land speeders or drop pods?
In recent years we've seen rules for AT units included in the box with the model, and 40k/AOS unit datasheets available as free digital versions alongside printed supplements.
Pacific wrote: There is a big difference between day-one DLC and a genuine expansion which has grown organically as the game itself has been developed, and needs a further rules release further down the line.
I don't know why there is the need to have to point that out..
"Genuine expansions" as you have defined them are few and far between. The vast majority of expansions (95%+) for games, both digital and physical, are planned while the core game is in development, before it ever releases because it exceeds the scope of the minimum viable product defined by the lead designer/developer or the page count limitations imposed by publishing, or the time available for product development, etc. The idea that expansion are something that come about organically whole cloth after a game has been developed and launched is pure fiction in the vast majority of cases.
The "cut content" argument that others have mentioned is a cynical one, its not entirely inaccurate, but it is a bit misleading, as the majority of expansions for any game (again, physical or digital) are things that were in actuality thought of and perhaps even had development initiated during core development and cut for time, budget, space, resource, etc. reasons.
Announcing that there will be supplements that contains rules for what is pretty much 'core' content for the main army for this game at least gives those of us that were tempted to try the new rules, but dislike the way they piecemealed out the new necromunda, fair notice to pick up the cheap core box set for the nice minis and drop the rulebooks straight into the bin.
I've no problem with new campaign books, or expanding games as they develop organically. But leaving out key items for the main army that they knew damn well that they would have models coming out for, originally planned for mere weeks after the main release, just stinks.
Pacific wrote: There is a big difference between day-one DLC and a genuine expansion which has grown organically as the game itself has been developed, and needs a further rules release further down the line.
I don't know why there is the need to have to point that out..
"Genuine expansions" as you have defined them are few and far between. The vast majority of expansions (95%+) for games, both digital and physical, are planned while the core game is in development, before it ever releases because it exceeds the scope of the minimum viable product defined by the lead designer/developer or the page count limitations imposed by publishing, or the time available for product development, etc. The idea that expansion are something that come about organically whole cloth after a game has been developed and launched is pure fiction in the vast majority of cases.
The "cut content" argument that others have mentioned is a cynical one, its not entirely inaccurate, but it is a bit misleading, as the majority of expansions for any game (again, physical or digital) are things that were in actuality thought of and perhaps even had development initiated during core development and cut for time, budget, space, resource, etc. reasons.
I mean... they certainly seem cut content, given that the apparently couldn't even publish a single LI battle report with those rules...
Plus, I for one I'd say that Drop Pods is one of the probably more signature "things" that Space Marines do in 40k, and jetbikes seem like a less important unit but still very iconic of a number of the legions.
Additionally? The core fething book has just two fething army lists. And they're not even full? Yeah, feth off.
On the other hand that line about the next book seems to have been deleted from the article because I can't find it anymore so seems likely its going to be the Thursday article and they unintentionally leaked it already
The blurb about the Great Slaughter is actually in the text box in he article in the magazine, not the preview article. So no change at least.
I do wish GW would not try and be EA. I prefer all the rules to not be spread over 50 zillion books. But unfortunately that is kind of the GW way. Maybe the box sets will come with rule cards or something.
After chapterhouse that would require releasing every model at once.
On the other hand that line about the next book seems to have been deleted from the article because I can't find it anymore so seems likely its going to be the Thursday article and they unintentionally leaked it already
The blurb about the Great Slaughter is actually in the text box in he article in the magazine, not the preview article. So no change at least.
I do wish GW would not try and be EA. I prefer all the rules to not be spread over 50 zillion books. But unfortunately that is kind of the GW way. Maybe the box sets will come with rule cards or something.
After chapterhouse that would require releasing every model at once.
Nonsense. AoS release armies in this way all the time now. Cities of Sigmar army book & launch box was released end of August. Some existing warcry models were re-released to be used in the army as a pre-order just this last Saturday. The rest of the range (which has rules and pictures in the August released book) are no where to be seen yet.
The original release date of the legions core release was only a few weeks ago, and way too close for them to be showing drop pods in articles now for the models to have been to nowhere close to being finished at the point they decide to not put them in the core book.
Albertorius wrote: Additionally? The core fething book has just two fething army lists. And they're not even full? Yeah, feth off.
Technically just one. It's a civil war, both sides have more or less the same ressources at their disposal. There are "allied" factions within, but since everything can be taken in the same army, I'd tend to consider it as a whole.
Well I guess if you count the guard and the titans / knights, you could see them as 3. Main is of course the Space Marines.
Same for Adeptus Titanicus. In the end, it's a game with just one faction including all the titans and knights. I didn't hear their players say "feth off" when it was first released. That's simply how the game is designed.
Thing is, that "there's not everything in the rulebook" is a fallacy of the mind. It's just the knowledge we have that there are further miniatures whose rules will be in an expansion that creates it. When Epic 2nd edition launched, all of these expansion armies weren't announced at all. Did players say "feth off" because not all these armies / extra units weren't in the starter box at release ? No. Mostly because they didn't know there would be that many.
But in the end, having an expansion with rules for drops pods / motojets doesn't invalidate the "core" game at all. It's just...an expansion. In a wargame like LI, you don't have to take everything to make a game / army, that's the thing.
After all, people who didn't want to play drop pods or motojets in their army will just shrug and say "don't care".
Real thing that feth it up is that information / previews come way too fast and in too big numbers. It's just ridiculous, people can't even project themselves with simply the "core set" and build their army gradually. No, now everyone must have everything at once (how will they build / paint everything at the same speed is still a mystery to behold).
Hopefully 
