Something goatboy said over on Bell has me thinking.

What do you think that the (assuming there is one) new SoB codex will be like?

I hate to say it, but I had a vision of a worst-case scenario where Matt Ward has Celestine rape Slaanesh in person with a chain sword after slaughtering the Emperor's Children to the last CSM and being pregnant with the Star Child via the Emperor, before declaring Roboute Guilliman to be her spiritual liege.

On a serious note I think that the new Faith system will work similar to how the GK Psyker powers work whereas each squad has a specific power that they're allowed to use per turn.

Last I heard matt ward was not the one writing the SoB codex, but Phil Kelly is supposedly the one writing it.

I heard the same.

I actually expect something closer to Orders myself.

Well you can expect quality from Phil Kelly. He and Andy Hoare are by far my favourite codex writers.

BTW is the plural of codex
A-Codexes or
B-Codices?

I think technically its codices, but many people say codexes

It is codices, but GW uses both.

TY

I really doubt there will be any inquisition elements in the SOB codex.

I agree that this is likely.

But we will see ecclesiarchy members.

Melissia wrote:I agree that this is likely.

But we will see ecclesiarchy members.

Oh how I hope!

Mortifex would be nice to see in the 'dex

We will not be seeing a Sisters of Battle Codex until they decide to make some new plastics for them.

I hope that is soon, I recently just sold off about 2000 points of metal sisters for one reason: Given how much people will pay for these girls, it was a better idea then keeping them around. That and when the new plastics come out, a sisters army might be more fun as you won't be stuck with 4 different models for your normal gals. xD

The Sororitas always seem to be getting demolished and embarrassed these days, hopefully they can get some victories in.

They'll probably de-emphasize its connection to the Inquisition in a manner similar to the GK codex.

IdentifyZero wrote:We will not be seeing a Sisters of Battle Codex until they decide to make some new plastics for them.

We already know they're making them, as they've talked about problems they've had with the robes and trying to make them look dynamic enough.

IdentifyZero wrote:We will not be seeing a Sisters of Battle Codex until they decide to make some new plastics for them.

I hope that is soon, I recently just sold off about 2000 points of metal sisters for one reason: Given how much people will pay for these girls, it was a better idea then keeping them around. That and when the new plastics come out, a sisters army might be more fun as you won't be stuck with 4 different models for your normal gals. xD

Rumors say that they have finished the plastics for SoB and they look really good and that they started on the plastic sisters a few months after they started working on the new GK. Rumors also put the SoB either near the end of this year or the first quarter of next year.

Yeah, after crons. Then tau probably after Sisters . Sounds like a good year for GW's underdogs.

Basically I'm hoping for a very shooty mid to close range army. I also kind of assumed that there would be an order like system, but I do indeed hope they keep the Faith system, or at least something similar to it.

And a box of 5 sisters will cost $75 knowing GW...

BaronIveagh wrote:And a box of 5 sisters will cost $75 knowing GW...

No, it'll be ten per box. Basic battle sisters can't even come in units of five. Hell, Grey Hunters came in ten for thirty five, I guarantee Sisters won't be more expensive than that.

LOl they'l make it Squad part A and Squad Part B so they can charge more and still claim that they're inexpensive. Sort of like IG.

Melissia wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:We will not be seeing a Sisters of Battle Codex until they decide to make some new plastics for them.

We already know they're making them, as they've talked about problems they've had with the robes and trying to make them look dynamic enough.

I'm not doubting you guys, but where have you read these things from GW??????? I've been playing Warhammer since around 91' and the 'a friend of a friend' is never really what I like to hear. xD


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:And a box of 5 sisters will cost $75 knowing GW...

No, it'll be ten per box. Basic battle sisters can't even come in units of five. Hell, Grey Hunters came in ten for thirty five, I guarantee Sisters won't be more expensive than that.

Would also be interesting if they can still be fielded in groups of 20.

I wonder if Immolator Spam will still be the order of the day in the new codex to.

What do you mean still?

Immolator spam is pretty crappy, so it becoming good would be new, not the same thing over again

BaronIveagh wrote:LOl they'l make it Squad part A and Squad Part B so they can charge more and still claim that they're inexpensive. Sort of like IG.

Actually you can get an entire troops choice from a single box with IG. It just isn't an infantry platoon.

Melissia wrote:Actually you can get an entire troops choice from a single box with IG. It just isn't an infantry platoon.

IIRC, since it's been a while since I bought IG in less then army box quantities, it's usually slightly less then a squad,

Melissia wrote:What do you mean still?

Immolator spam is pretty crappy, so it becoming good would be new, not the same thing over again

BaronIveagh wrote:LOl they'l make it Squad part A and Squad Part B so they can charge more and still claim that they're inexpensive. Sort of like IG.

Actually you can get an entire troops choice from a single box with IG. It just isn't an infantry platoon.

Last I played Sisters Immolator spam was great, that was back in 4th. I would think it's even better in 5th given how templates work and the ammount of said templates sisters can bring to bear.

fox-light713 wrote:Last I heard matt ward was not the one writing the SoB codex, but Phil Kelly is supposedly the one writing it.

Imo, it'd be great if Phil Kelly wrote the new SoB codex! I own and love the one he made for Dark Eldar. *crosses fingers*

BaronIveagh wrote:Something goatboy said over on Bell has me thinking.

What do you think that the (assuming there is one) new SoB codex will be like?

I hate to say it, but I had a vision of a worst-case scenario where Matt Ward has Celestine rape Slaanesh in person with a chain sword after slaughtering the Emperor's Children to the last CSM and being pregnant with the Star Child via the Emperor, before declaring Roboute Guilliman to be her spiritual liege.

Eh, shouldn't they just make a small pamphlet, and mail it to the 15 or so SoB players instead of wasting their time writing a new codex?

SpitfireArsonist wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Something goatboy said over on Bell has me thinking.

What do you think that the (assuming there is one) new SoB codex will be like?

I hate to say it, but I had a vision of a worst-case scenario where Matt Ward has Celestine rape Slaanesh in person with a chain sword after slaughtering the Emperor's Children to the last CSM and being pregnant with the Star Child via the Emperor, before declaring Roboute Guilliman to be her spiritual liege.

Eh, shouldn't they just make a small pamphlet, and mail it to the 15 or so SoB players instead of wasting their time writing a new codex?

Good idea. Oh, and then they can send out a pamphlet for the new Chaos Space Marines 'dex just saying 'counts as Space Marines' on it.

Hey, will I be able to use Razorbacks, Multi-meltas and Plasmacannons then?

Haha, sure. Hell, I might run my Sisters as Grey Knights. Dread Knight = Penitent Engine, right?

SpitfireArsonist wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Something goatboy said over on Bell has me thinking.

What do you think that the (assuming there is one) new SoB codex will be like?

I hate to say it, but I had a vision of a worst-case scenario where Matt Ward has Celestine rape Slaanesh in person with a chain sword after slaughtering the Emperor's Children to the last CSM and being pregnant with the Star Child via the Emperor, before declaring Roboute Guilliman to be her spiritual liege.

Eh, shouldn't they just make a small pamphlet, and mail it to the 15 or so SoB players instead of wasting their time writing a new codex?

They should probably do that for all the non-SM armies, then they could concentrate on making some more SM codexes.

IdentifyZero wrote:

Melissia wrote:What do you mean still?

Immolator spam is pretty crappy, so it becoming good would be new, not the same thing over again

BaronIveagh wrote:LOl they'l make it Squad part A and Squad Part B so they can charge more and still claim that they're inexpensive. Sort of like IG.

Actually you can get an entire troops choice from a single box with IG. It just isn't an infantry platoon.

Last I played Sisters Immolator spam was great, that was back in 4th. I would think it's even better in 5th given how templates work and the ammount of said templates sisters can bring to bear.

Nope, there's tons of anti-tank in fifth edition as this is basically the edition of mechanized. And immolators are hilariously fragile for their expense at a mere AV11. Try beating a mech guard army with immolators. Yeah...

Melissia wrote:Nope, there's tons of anti-tank in fifth edition as this is basically the edition of mechanized. And immolators are hilariously fragile for their expense at a mere AV11. Try beating a mech guard army with immolators. Yeah...

What do you use? Do you go down the Exorcist route, or perhaps melta infantry?

I tended to use three exorcists, four to six battle sister squads, and either a canoness with seraphim or canoness with celestians.

Although it frequently ends up being a game of "who has more uncontested objectives?", I still manage to win. Not as often as I did before C:IG and the other fifth edition codices mind....

fox-light713 wrote:Last I heard matt ward was not the one writing the SoB codex, but Phil Kelly is supposedly the one writing it.

So novice sisters will now be stealing Thunderhawks to cruise mischiveously and promiscously around Sister town with their Sister-claws and Sister-belts while Saint Celesntine's troubled underdog-childhood will be revealed, though she now turns into "the most intelligent Dark Elder Sister of all" who lops black-holes-in-a-box at her rival Sisters while cackling away happily like bugs bunny on carrot pay day?

Please Lord no.. Sisters sure deserve better than Phail Kelly.

@Melissia.
That's what I suspected. I was hoping you'd have a great ground-pounder tactic. Whenever I've tried it I've ended up with a whole bunch of dead Sisters.. The few options for AT is one of the main things that's been making me get bored of my Sisters. Hopefully the new 'dex will restore my passion.

HTJ: For Sisters, it's really all won or lost in the movement phase. That's the only advice I can give.

You're confusing PHil Kelly with Matt Ward, Zweischneid.

I think that was a reference to the Space Wolves codex, which Phil Kelly did.

Then again, if my Witch Hunters get the same love that my Space Wolves got, I'll be a happy gamer.

Edit: Nevermind, I'm not really sure what Zwei is talking about. For some reason I thought his post was about the recent naming trends (blood fist, blood this, blood that, etc. etc.)

clearly I'm going crazy faster than I originally thought...

BaronIveagh wrote:I hate to say it, but I had a vision of a worst-case scenario where Matt Ward has Celestine rape Slaanesh in person with a chain sword after slaughtering the Emperor's Children to the last CSM and being pregnant with the Star Child via the Emperor, before declaring Roboute Guilliman to be her spiritual liege.

I hate to say it, but I laughed profusely when I read this. Totally seems like something Matt Ward would do.

+1

... who isn't writing this codex.

Melissia wrote:... who isn't writing this codex.

But it is if he were!

Yeah, but he said that's something Phil Kelly would write.

BaronIveagh wrote:I hate to say it, but I had a vision of a worst-case scenario where Matt Ward has Celestine rape Slaanesh in person with a chain sword after slaughtering the Emperor's Children to the last CSM and being pregnant with the Star Child via the Emperor, before declaring Roboute Guilliman to be her spiritual liege.

I think he meant the Wardster...

Which Codices are written by Phil Kelly? I don't think I own any of them, but if he's writing Sisters I'd like to have a look.

Melissia wrote:Nope, there's tons of anti-tank in fifth edition as this is basically the edition of mechanized. And immolators are hilariously fragile for their expense at a mere AV11. Try beating a mech guard army with immolators. Yeah...

Umm. Immo Spam is one of the more competitive lists variants out of C:WH... The fact that you can take 8 to 11 Immos, all with 2x BS4 Meltaguns in them plus other things at 2000 points is a pretty big deal.

Check the BR forum, I belive SabrX has quite a few successful BRs for his Immo Spam.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

htj wrote:Which Codices are written by Phil Kelly? I don't think I own any of them, but if he's writing Sisters I'd like to have a look.

Codex Space Wolves. Codex: Eldar. Partial credit for Codex: Necrons

I'm hoping for more/better seraphim. Flying nuns with flamethrowers are a fantastic concept that should be expanded upon more, at length.

All I hope is a new codex ... Nothing more.

I know I would say then: This story or that rule/unit/weapon is intolerable !
And at the same time: Ohlalala, some of these are really great.

I hope its pretty close to the current dex, just with some fifth edition additions.

Melissia wrote:Yeah, after crons. Then tau probably after Sisters . Sounds like a good year for GW's underdogs.

TAU!

pretre wrote:

Melissia wrote:Nope, there's tons of anti-tank in fifth edition as this is basically the edition of mechanized. And immolators are hilariously fragile for their expense at a mere AV11. Try beating a mech guard army with immolators. Yeah...

Umm. Immo Spam is one of the more competitive lists variants out of C:WH... The fact that you can take 8 to 11 Immos, all with 2x BS4 Meltaguns in them plus other things at 2000 points is a pretty big deal.

Not against my Guard army it isn't. 8-11 overpriced AV11 vehicles is laughably easy to destroy, and the targets inside of said vehicles are rather squishy too (Being five member squads which are T3).

Melissia wrote:
IdentifyZero wrote:
We will not be seeing a Sisters of Battle Codex until they decide to make some new plastics for them.
We already know they're making them, as they've talked about problems they've had with the robes and trying to make them look dynamic enough.


I'm not doubting you guys, but where have you read these things from GW??????? I've been playing Warhammer since around 91' and the 'a friend of a friend' is never really what I like to hear. xD

It was in one of the Dark Eldar interviews ... They were talking about how solving some of the issues in making the DE dynamic gave them ways to address some of the issues with the sisters, namely non-static flowing robes and plastic sprue placement.

My thought on faith points:

Allocate 1 faith per turn. Squads with a HQ and 'faithful' units (celestians / seraphim) get a bonus faith point that only they can expend.

Cannot accumulate (use or loose)
Expend 1 to : get fleet (fervours charge forward), rending on template and melta weapons (holy fire), invunerable save next turn (divine shield) etc.

Some units would be martyrs allowing an additional faith point to be allocated when they die. (HQs primarily)

Yech, I hate martyrdom. It's such a stupidly designed rule that basically means Sisters go through HQ units like a fat kid goes through packages of doritos.

The best case scenario to me would be a tweaked army that wins the game at medium to short range, but not in CC. Bolter is, where it's at, together with NON Psi-Faith mechanic, and anti-psi on the Sisters (hey, Psi Powers should be considered lesser by now, looking at how many of them are around by now...)

And it's Marneus Calgar who is the liege. NOT Guilliman. God damn it people, at least get your hate RIGHT if you want to hate.

Problem is that if the army is all medium-short range with no long ranged weapons added in, it'll still suffer from the "every army has three exorcists" problem.

I already have my own ideal fifth editions Sisters codex out, heh.

Mortifex!

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:

Melissia wrote:Nope, there's tons of anti-tank in fifth edition as this is basically the edition of mechanized. And immolators are hilariously fragile for their expense at a mere AV11. Try beating a mech guard army with immolators. Yeah...

Umm. Immo Spam is one of the more competitive lists variants out of C:WH... The fact that you can take 8 to 11 Immos, all with 2x BS4 Meltaguns in them plus other things at 2000 points is a pretty big deal.

Not against my Guard army it isn't. 8-11 overpriced AV11 vehicles is laughably easy to destroy, and the targets inside of said vehicles are rather squishy too (Being five member squads which are T3).

Sorry, forgot about your vast competitive experience and library of battle reports. How many games have you played with or against using immo spam? Because I'm certain there are quite a few BRs just on dakka that indicate that it is viable and competitive. Unless your theorycraft trumps empirical evidence now.

pretre wrote:

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:

Melissia wrote:Nope, there's tons of anti-tank in fifth edition as this is basically the edition of mechanized. And immolators are hilariously fragile for their expense at a mere AV11. Try beating a mech guard army with immolators. Yeah...

Umm. Immo Spam is one of the more competitive lists variants out of C:WH... The fact that you can take 8 to 11 Immos, all with 2x BS4 Meltaguns in them plus other things at 2000 points is a pretty big deal.

Not against my Guard army it isn't. 8-11 overpriced AV11 vehicles is laughably easy to destroy, and the targets inside of said vehicles are rather squishy too (Being five member squads which are T3).

Sorry, forgot about your vast competitive experience and library of battle reports. How many games have you played with or against using immo spam? Because I'm certain there are quite a few BRs just on dakka that indicate that it is viable and competitive. Unless your theorycraft trumps empirical evidence now.

It is certainly intimidating seeing that many vehicles...

5 Immos, 2 Rhino, 3 Exo vs Eldar, draw. Tournament.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/364150.page

3 Immos, 2 Rhinos, 3 Exo vs DE, Win. Tournament.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/362728.page

3 Immos, 2 Rhinos, 3 Exo vs DA, Loss. Tournament.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/359981.page

3 Immos, 2 Rhinos, 3 Exo vs Chaos, Win. Tournament.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/358291.page

8 Immos, 2 Exo, 2 Rhino vs BA, Draw
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/357372.page

3 Immos, 3 Rhinos, 2 Seraphim, 3 Exos vs Wolfstar. Win.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344684.page

2 Immos, 3 Rhinos, 1 Seraphim, 2 Exos vs Orks. Win.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344388.page

3 Immos, 3 Rhinos,2 Seraphim, 3 Exos vs Orks. Draw.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344388.page

8 Immos, 2 Exo, 2 Rhino vs Daemons. Draw
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/341823.page

8 Immos, 2 Exo, 2 Rhino vs SW. Win. Tournament.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/339752.page

8 Immos, 2 Exo, 2 Rhino vs Eldar. Draw. Tournament.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/337609.page

8 Immos, 2 Exo, 2 Rhino vs Tyranids. Loss.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/337609.page

8 Immos, 2 Exo, 2 Rhino vs Orks. Loss. Tournament.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/302377.page

8 Immos, 2 Exo, 2 Rhino vs Tyranids. Win. Tournament.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/294444.page

8 Immos, 2 Exo, 2 Rhino vs SM. Draw. Tournament.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/290906.page

Win 6
Draw 6
Loss 3

That's just SabrX and only as many as I got to before I got bored. Certainly not a losing record and looks pretty viable to me.

pretre wrote:5 Immos, 2 Rhino, 3 Exo vs Eldar, draw. Tournament.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/364150.page

3 Immos, 2 Rhinos, 3 Exo vs DE, Win. Tournament.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/362728.page

3 Immos, 2 Rhinos, 3 Exo vs DA, Loss. Tournament.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/359981.page

3 Immos, 2 Rhinos, 3 Exo vs Chaos, Win. Tournament.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/358291.page

8 Immos, 2 Exo, 2 Rhino vs BA, Draw
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/357372.page

3 Immos, 3 Rhinos, 2 Seraphim, 3 Exos vs Wolfstar. Win.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344684.page

2 Immos, 3 Rhinos, 1 Seraphim, 2 Exos vs Orks. Win.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344388.page

3 Immos, 3 Rhinos,2 Seraphim, 3 Exos vs Orks. Draw.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/344388.page

8 Immos, 2 Exo, 2 Rhino vs Daemons. Draw
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/341823.page

8 Immos, 2 Exo, 2 Rhino vs SW. Win. Tournament.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/339752.page

8 Immos, 2 Exo, 2 Rhino vs Eldar. Draw. Tournament.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/337609.page

8 Immos, 2 Exo, 2 Rhino vs Tyranids. Loss.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/337609.page

8 Immos, 2 Exo, 2 Rhino vs Orks. Loss. Tournament.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/302377.page

8 Immos, 2 Exo, 2 Rhino vs Tyranids. Win. Tournament.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/294444.page

8 Immos, 2 Exo, 2 Rhino vs SM. Draw. Tournament.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/290906.page

Win 6
Draw 6
Loss 3

That's just SabrX and only as many as I got to before I got bored. Certainly not a losing record and looks pretty viable to me.

Honestly, like I said above to and got told otherwise... pretty sure this is the most competitive Sister's list you can field really.. Immo spam. Not sure why some people like to say it sucks... lol Thanks for posting that.

I hope the codex reflects both their roles in the inqusition and ecclesiarchy though with karamazov popping up in the GK codex i fear they will go purely ecclesiarchy. I was surprised to see the other two ordos represented in the codex. Hopefully the close to mid range theme stays though adding missile launchers to retributors may ease the reliance on exorcists.

I'd like to see celestians get the option of bolt pistols and chainswords, this would give the codex a good, solid but not ridiculous cc unit hitting on 3's but at s3, bung in a canoness and away you go. Dominions i think could be played with, their special weapon options could be transferred to the retributors and overhaul them completely maybe mount them only in an immo and have a h flam and sis superior and 4 sisters with combat shields, bolt pistols and chainswords a chunkier foil to the hit and run seraphim maybe.

Inquisitors, hmm in my mind just cut and paste from the GK codex i think they're great what they always should have been. I like the fact that they are the chamber militant of the ordo hereticus it gives them character and purpose above that of wars of faith and guarding churches and pushes their elite status over guard. You could have the ordo hereticus inq as one HQ choice (Inquisitorial strikeforce) and say a cardinal militant (war of faith) as another and they give access to two types of unit. Inq henchman and frateris militia/redemptionist cultists or such like.

Technically not all of those are immo spam, some having 2 or 3...but I get the point...I would run them if I had SoB...

spireland wrote:I hope its pretty close to the current dex, just with some fifth edition additions.

Unfortunately one of the main things I'm expecting is a fifth edition removal: the replacement of the armoury by limited by-unit upgrade lists.

For Dominions, I think giving them Scouts would work. Give them a role aside from simply spamming more weapons.

im2randomghgh wrote:Technically not all of those are immo spam, some having 2 or 3

Which isn't spam at all.

If two of the same unit is spam then there is no good non-spam army.

At any rate, a good player can win with a bad army list, this is hardly news. After all, we're winning with Sisters to begin with, and that's hardly the best army list around.

Unrelated: I hope in the (hopefully) 1st quarter Tau dex update we get to play with demiurgs, they just seem so mysterious...Right now we only get them in BFG.

Zweischneid wrote:

fox-light713 wrote:Last I heard matt ward was not the one writing the SoB codex, but Phil Kelly is supposedly the one writing it.

So novice sisters will now be stealing Thunderhawks to cruise mischiveously and promiscously around Sister town with their Sister-claws and Sister-belts while Saint Celesntine's troubled underdog-childhood will be revealed, though she now turns into "the most intelligent Dark Elder Sister of all" who lops black-holes-in-a-box at her rival Sisters while cackling away happily like bugs bunny on carrot pay day?

Please Lord no.. Sisters sure deserve better than Phail Kelly.

I honestly think the Space Wolves was Phil Kelly parodying the space marines. His work fluff wise on the Orks, Eldar and Dark Eldar is just awesome, honestly. Yes, the same guy who came up with an ork warboss going back in time to kill himself to get two copies of his favorite gun is from the same guy who wrote the wolf dex.

Zweischneid wrote:

fox-light713 wrote:Last I heard matt ward was not the one writing the SoB codex, but Phil Kelly is supposedly the one writing it.



So novice sisters will now be stealing Thunderhawks to cruise mischiveously and promiscously around Sister town with their Sister-claws and Sister-belts while Saint Celesntine's troubled underdog-childhood will be revealed, though she now turns into "the most intelligent Dark Elder Sister of all" who lops black-holes-in-a-box at her rival Sisters while cackling away happily like bugs bunny on carrot pay day?

Please Lord no.. Sisters sure deserve better than Phail Kelly.

Hay I wanted Phill kelly for my new nids dex instead i got Robin fething cruddence. I know our dex is still ok but we lost a lot of flavor that made nids awesome. Trust me phill will do your sisters justice unlike robin fething cruddence!

Yet Robin Cruddace did a decent job of the Guard codex, so we shall just have to wait until his next work to see which of them was a fluke, IG or nids.

Either one of them is better than ward for me. I don't think the 'nid codex is bad anyway... it's more the FAQs that need re-writing.

I just want 2 things out of this codex:

1) Keep my troop spam viable - Fluff has shown plenty of times that whole convents goto war... love that.

2) Fix this whole "Over/Under" squad size mess with faith - It is a running gag at my FLGS that folks have NO idea how it works and think I'm just making crap up... I litterally have to have a separate copied sheet for my opponent (which I'm fairly they're just messing with me, but I'm terrible with sarcasm).

Melissia wrote:Either one of them is better than ward for me. I don't think the 'nid codex is bad anyway... it's more the FAQs that need re-writing.

Speak for yourself. Cruddace produced the most overpowered (IG) and underpowered (Nid) Codex of 5th. It clearly shows his inability in grasping the working mechanics of 40K. His treatment of the Hive War shows utter ignorance of the fluff too.

Kelly is far worse. Things like Orks-back-in-time, Wolves on a Ferris Bueller Day off in their Thunderhawk or Vect's black-hole-in-a-box make me think his is reading or watching loony-toons while writing his books, rather than 40K stuff. Reading a Kelly Codex, I always half-expect Bugs Bunny to show up as a Special Character. And worse, he is utterly incapable of "characterization". Rather, in Kelly Codexes we're treated to the most atrocious sort of expositionary writing, say, when he tells us literaly "Vect is the most intelligent and devious Dark Eldar". Captivating, really! What's more, his rules, whether Wolves or Dark Eldar produce rather bland, uniform spam-armies. All SW armies now carry Long Fangs and JotWW-spam. All DE just do the kinda-MSU Raider Spam. There is absolutely no creativity or talent there. Oh, and lets not forget Kelly's master stroke of a guy called "the Decaptiator" who wields a weapon called "the Decapitator" and decapitates people. And if he does it long enough, the world will end! I swear, if Kelly ever writes another Marine Codex, there will probably be a SC called "Bolter" who carries a "Bolter" and "bolters" people.

Given these alternatives, Mat Ward is far and wide the best codex writer they have. All his books fall fairly well into the middle of the power (or balance) category. And more importantly, they are the most diverse and flexible books. He pioneered Chapter Tactics making the Space Marine book the gold standard of versatility. Likewise, the Blood Angel Dex with the options for Mech, Jumpers, Golden Army, all-DC, MSU, Terminator Deathstar, Dread-army, etc... alone produces brings more variety to todays gaming tables than all of the Codex from Kelly and Cruddace taken together. And in his much maligned fluff writing, Ward respects previous work (e.g. Hive War... compare his version to Cruddace version), actually made Necrons interesting and truly inscrutable for the fist time (Blood Angel alliance) and brilliantly re-invented the Grey Knights (Terminus Decree, Chapter Founding, Purifier Fortress, etc..).

I take a Ward Codex over the inept scribbling of the others any day.

I actually like the current Witch Hunters codex. Its faith system throws my opponent's off guard. It also adds strategy, making the player think when is the best time to use a given power. On top of that, it can't be countered like psychic powers.

Divine Guidance and Spirit of the Martyr allows Sisters to withstand attacks that would otherwise annihilate them at the same time dish out tremendous damage. I fear a new codex will rid these special assets in exchanged for less useful ones. I don't want Sisters to be streamlined like Space Marines. I want them to remain unique.

If anything needs to be changed, its Sister's long range shooting. The current Sisters are decent in objective missions, but they are outgunned by all armies when it comes to long range shooting. Sure the Exorcist is one of the best tank killers in the game, but it fires D6 random shots, which can make it unreliable.

I just hope there is still Sisters Repentia (thats what they were called right? The ones that carried eviscerators?)

Zweischneid wrote:

Melissia wrote:Either one of them is better than ward for me. I don't think the 'nid codex is bad anyway... it's more the FAQs that need re-writing.

Speak for yourself. Cruddace produced the most overpowered (IG) and underpowered (Nid) Codex of 5th. It clearly shows his inability in grasping the working mechanics of 40K. His treatment of the Hive War shows utter ignorance of the fluff too.

Kelly is far worse. Things like Orks-back-in-time, Wolves on a Ferris Bueller Day off in their Thunderhawk or Vect's black-hole-in-a-box make me think his is reading or watching loony-toons while writing his books, rather than 40K stuff. Reading a Kelly Codex, I always half-expect Bugs Bunny to show up as a Special Character. And worse, he is utterly incapable of "characterization". Rather, in Kelly Codexes we're treated to the most atrocious sort of expositionary writing, say, when he tells us literaly "Vect is the most intelligent and devious Dark Eldar". Captivating, really! What's more, his rules, whether Wolves or Dark Eldar produce rather bland, uniform spam-armies. All SW armies now carry Long Fangs and JotWW-spam. All DE just do the kinda-MSU Raider Spam. There is absolutely no creativity or talent there. Oh, and lets not forget Kelly's master stroke of a guy called "the Decaptiator" who wields a weapon called "the Decapitator" and decapitates people. And if he does it long enough, the world will end! I swear, if Kelly ever writes another Marine Codex, there will probably be a SC called "Bolter" who carries a "Bolter" and "bolters" people.

Given these alternatives, Mat Ward is far and wide the best codex writer they have. All his books fall fairly well into the middle of the power (or balance) category. And more importantly, they are the most diverse and flexible books. He pioneered Chapter Tactics making the Space Marine book the gold standard of versatility. Likewise, the Blood Angel Dex with the options for Mech, Jumpers, Golden Army, all-DC, MSU, Terminator Deathstar, Dread-army, etc... alone produces brings more variety to todays gaming tables than all of the Codex from Kelly and Cruddace taken together. And in his much maligned fluff writing, Ward respects previous work (e.g. Hive War... compare his version to Cruddace version), actually made Necrons interesting and truly inscrutable for the fist time (Blood Angel alliance) and brilliantly re-invented the Grey Knights (Terminus Decree, Chapter Founding, Purifier Fortress, etc..).

I take a Ward Codex over the inept scribbling of the others any day.

1. Ward codices are the worst. To argue this point is futile. Check out the thread called "So Grey Knights worship Khorne Now?"
Or the 1d4chan Matt Ward Gallery of Disaster. He really is the worst. They probably just don't want to get rid of him to make their other writers seem god-like by comparison.

2. Nids are NOT underpowered, Tau are underpowered, Necrons are underpowered, Nids are NOT underpowered.

3. Guard is good, but still perfectly beatable, you just need this think called Strategy .

4. The BA/Cron alliance was an abomination. They might as well have team the BA with Chaos, it just didn't make sense.

5. He RUINED the GK. They bathed in SoB blood. How do you, clearly someone who cares about the Adepta, go along with that?

From a games perspective, Matt Ward's codex are broken. AV14, AV13, FNP, and Furious Charge spam Blood Angels, Force Weapon all time time Grey Knights that will most of the time crush Daemon players is far from balanced.

I'm not saying nids are underpowered no they do fine, they just lost some of the army feel. Also I'm pretty pissed about the fluff in the new one.

Zweischneid wrote:

Melissia wrote:Either one of them is better than ward for me. I don't think the 'nid codex is bad anyway... it's more the FAQs that need re-writing.

Speak for yourself. Cruddace produced the most overpowered (IG) and underpowered (Nid) Codex of 5th. It clearly shows his inability in grasping the working mechanics of 40K. His treatment of the Hive War shows utter ignorance of the fluff too.

Kelly is far worse. Things like Orks-back-in-time, Wolves on a Ferris Bueller Day off in their Thunderhawk or Vect's black-hole-in-a-box make me think his is reading or watching loony-toons while writing his books, rather than 40K stuff. Reading a Kelly Codex, I always half-expect Bugs Bunny to show up as a Special Character. And worse, he is utterly incapable of "characterization". Rather, in Kelly Codexes we're treated to the most atrocious sort of expositionary writing, say, when he tells us literaly "Vect is the most intelligent and devious Dark Eldar". Captivating, really! What's more, his rules, whether Wolves or Dark Eldar produce rather bland, uniform spam-armies. All SW armies now carry Long Fangs and JotWW-spam. All DE just do the kinda-MSU Raider Spam. There is absolutely no creativity or talent there. Oh, and lets not forget Kelly's master stroke of a guy called "the Decaptiator" who wields a weapon called "the Decapitator" and decapitates people. And if he does it long enough, the world will end! I swear, if Kelly ever writes another Marine Codex, there will probably be a SC called "Bolter" who carries a "Bolter" and "bolters" people.

Given these alternatives, Mat Ward is far and wide the best codex writer they have. All his books fall fairly well into the middle of the power (or balance) category. And more importantly, they are the most diverse and flexible books. He pioneered Chapter Tactics making the Space Marine book the gold standard of versatility. Likewise, the Blood Angel Dex with the options for Mech, Jumpers, Golden Army, all-DC, MSU, Terminator Deathstar, Dread-army, etc... alone produces brings more variety to todays gaming tables than all of the Codex from Kelly and Cruddace taken together. And in his much maligned fluff writing, Ward respects previous work (e.g. Hive War... compare his version to Cruddace version), actually made Necrons interesting and truly inscrutable for the fist time (Blood Angel alliance) and brilliantly re-invented the Grey Knights (Terminus Decree, Chapter Founding, Purifier Fortress, etc..).

I take a Ward Codex over the inept scribbling of the others any day.

I thought this was serious for a moment, but after reading this, I realize it is a troll. Almost had me there! 2/10

Even then, a writer cannot please everybody. You are in the minority in this case.

The argument that Tyranids are underpowered makes me laugh.

Tyranids have a far better feel to them and a far better army than before. The only thing really missing from the previous editions is the ability to produce stupidly overpowered monstrous creature spam...

The only thing I wish was different were the Lictors, and the presence of a Lictor Alpha similar to DoW2.

Tyranids can be utterly brutal in the right hands. I don't understand how people are finding them to be underpowered. Where are they going wrong? Using old codex tactics? New 'dex comes out, you change your tactics. That is the way of this game.

Melissia wrote:The argument that Tyranids are underpowered makes me laugh.

If that's the case, could you do me the favour and rank the 5th Edition books (C:SM, C:IG, C:SW, C:Nids, C:BA, C;DE, C:GK, I believe) in their order of power as you see them (for the sake of simplicity, assuming equal skill of the player across the board, as well as an "all-comer" environment)?

Zweischneid wrote:

Melissia wrote:The argument that Tyranids are underpowered makes me laugh.

If that's the case, could you do me the favour and rank the 5th Edition books (C:SM, C:IG, C:SW, C:Nids, C:BA, C;DE, C:GK, I believe) in their order of power as you see them (for the sake of simplicity, assuming equal skill of the player across the board, as well as an "all-comer" environment)?

Why just 5ed books? Are you forgetting the, what, 7, 8 other armies? Even if they were the weakest of those armies (they're not), they'd still be better than almost all the 4ed ones because the 4ed ones are not designed to work well with 5ed, only 4ed.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Why just 5ed books? Are you forgetting the, what, 7, 8 other armies? Even if they were the weakest of those armies (they're not), they'd still be better than almost all the 4ed ones because the 4ed ones are not designed to work well with 5ed, only 4ed.

You answer your own question. I restrict it to 5th Edition books, precisely because 4th Edition books were written before the current rule-set. As such, unanticipated discrepancies are to be expected and can consequently not be attributed to bad (or good) Codex-writing.

Zweischneid, in what way do you consider the Tyranid codex underpowered?

Zweischneid wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Why just 5ed books? Are you forgetting the, what, 7, 8 other armies? Even if they were the weakest of those armies (they're not), they'd still be better than almost all the 4ed ones because the 4ed ones are not designed to work well with 5ed, only 4ed.

You answer your own question. I restrict it to 5th Edition books, precisely because 4th Edition books were written before the current rule-set. As such, unanticipated discrepancies are to be expected and can consequently not be attributed to bad (or good) Codex-writing.

Either way, returning to the point, Nids are better than DE and about even with non-daemon-fighting GK, IMHO.

Zweischneid wrote:

Melissia wrote:The argument that Tyranids are underpowered makes me laugh.

If that's the case, could you do me the favour and rank the 5th Edition books (C:SM, C:IG, C:SW, C:Nids, C:BA, C;DE, C:GK, I believe) in their order of power as you see them (for the sake of simplicity, assuming equal skill of the player across the board, as well as an "all-comer" environment)?

You just committed one of the three classic blunders: Never start a land war in asia, never get into it with a Sicillian when death is on the line and never start an argument about 40k with Melissia!

Besides, I'm not going to put a linear ranking system. That's misleading.

Melissia wrote:Besides, I'm not going to put a linear ranking system. That's misleading.

Exactly, it is all about what strategy you prefer, and what strategy you use with which army against which type of army.

I'm just hoping a new Sisters codex keeps a similar feel and uniqueness. Every step they take that makes them closer to Guard or Marines is a loss in my book. Don't morph the army too much, and stick with old school gothic feel (Sisters are the only army left that still has it IMO). I can cope with 'codex rankings', and of course we're going to get awesome new models, just don't mess up the army as a whole.

Creeping Dementia wrote:I'm just hoping a new Sisters codex keeps a similar feel and uniqueness. Every step they take that makes them closer to Guard or Marines is a loss in my book. Don't morph the army too much, and stick with old school gothic feel (Sisters are the only army left that still has it IMO). I can cope with 'codex rankings', and of course we're going to get awesome new models, just don't mess up the army as a whole.

Let me sum that up:

MATT WARD GTFO!

im2randomghgh wrote:
Either way, returning to the point, Nids are better than DE and about even with non-daemon-fighting GK, IMHO.

Ok, possible. But the DE-Codex is weaksauce incarnate anyways, and another pointless product of GW's most inept Codex-writer.

Jack-o-Black-holes-in-a-box still make my cry at what 40K has come to these days..

But the "common" or "majority" opinion here appears to be that DE are "well balanced" (which is largely Kelly-fan-wänk, not to mention desperate self-aggrandisation of Dark Eldar players who enjoy deluding themselves to be some kind of "better/advanced/more skilled" breed of 40K players) and GKs to be fairly powerful.

Zweischneid wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Either way, returning to the point, Nids are better than DE and about even with non-daemon-fighting GK, IMHO.

Ok, possible. But the DE-Codex is weaksauce incarnate anyways, and another pointless product of GW's most inept Codex-writer.

Jack-o-Black-holes-in-a-box still make my cry at what 40K has come to these days..

But the "common" or "majority" opinion here appears to be that DE are "well balanced" (which is largely Kelly-fan-wänk, not to mention desperate self-aggrandisation of Dark Eldar players who enjoy deluding themselves to be some kind of "better/advanced/more skilled" breed of 40K players) and GKs to be fairly powerful.

Right, let's try this again. What is it, in your opinion, that you find to be weak about the DE codex? Is it points cost? Or do you find they lack killer units? Or is it based on observational evidence of DE players in your area?

htj wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Either way, returning to the point, Nids are better than DE and about even with non-daemon-fighting GK, IMHO.

Ok, possible. But the DE-Codex is weaksauce incarnate anyways, and another pointless product of GW's most inept Codex-writer.

Jack-o-Black-holes-in-a-box still make my cry at what 40K has come to these days..

But the "common" or "majority" opinion here appears to be that DE are "well balanced" (which is largely Kelly-fan-wänk, not to mention desperate self-aggrandisation of Dark Eldar players who enjoy deluding themselves to be some kind of "better/advanced/more skilled" breed of 40K players) and GKs to be fairly powerful.

Right, let's try this again. What is it, in your opinion, that you find to be weak about the DE codex? Is it points cost? Or do you find they lack killer units? Or is it based on observational evidence of DE players in your area?

In this thread in particular, I am deducing from previous posts

im2randomghgh wrote:
Either way, returning to the point, Nids are better than DE and about even with non-daemon-fighting GK, IMHO.

DE, in this opinion, apparently rank behind Tyranids and Grey Knights in the 5th Edition books. Now, unless you consider IG, SW, BA and Marines to be weaker books than both Tyranids and DE (something I at least haven't heard so far), than DE must clearly be the tail light of the bunch.

In game experience, they tend to struggle alot with target saturation, lots of infantry and/or massive use of template weapons (again, given equal levels of skill on both sides of the table) and are overtly reliant on Raider/Venom-spam and on-trick-ponies like Vect himself. The more singular, potentially synergetic/supportive unit choices are often considered overpriced.

Personally, I would put vanilla Marines behind DE. DE, like Eldar, are highly specialised and fragile, but I think that they can strike a brutal killing blow when played well. The SMs, in my opinion, suffer from jack of all trades, master of none syndrome. They're by no means bad, but when played against a more specialised army such as BA, SW, IG or even DE, they aren't the best by a long shot. As to the one trick pony thing, that's a fair assessment, but wouldn't you say that's the case of some of the other armies you mentioned? The same lists and builds do seem to be the ones that come up all the time.

How do you think they stack up against the 4th ed books, including those written just prior to 5th?

htj wrote:
How do you think they stack up against the 4th ed books, including those written just prior to 5th?

Dunno. I don't think I ever played one of the newer books under 4th Edition rules. Vice-versa, most 4th Edition Codexes have to be a bit more creative vs. tanks and AV (and to a lesser degree negating the increasingly common FnP) as the were less prominent/reliable in a 4th edition environment.


But interesting that you rank Space Marines below Nids and DE. So would you say Space Marines is the weakest 5th Edition book? Or is there one that is even weaker?

Currently, the ranking I get from this board would go abit like this:

1...?
2...?
3...?
4...Grey Knights
5...Tyranids
6...Dark Eldar
7...Space Marines

Imperial Guard, Space Wolves and Blood Angels thus the top-3 guys?

I don't personally like ranking things, but given the options I would say that I feel that C:SM is the weakest of all the books written during 5th. I feel Eldar and Orks stand up well, despite being released under 4th rules.

Just for argument:

1-3 Space Puppies, IG, BA
4-6 Grey Knights, Dark Eldar, Space Marines,
7-9 Orcs, Nids, Eldar
10-12 Black Templar, Dark Angels, Tau,
13-15 Chaos SM , ChaosDemons, WH
16 NEcrons

htj wrote:I don't personally like ranking things, but given the options I would say that I feel that C:SM is the weakest of all the books written during 5th. I feel Eldar and Orks stand up well, despite being released under 4th rules.

Maybe. But without some sort of ranking, arguments like this always tend to go in circles over "X is not OP because you can beat it with Y", and "Y is not OP because you can beat it with Z".. .ultimately confusing a question of "un-balance" with a question of outright "un-kill-ability" which, thankfully, does not yet exist in 40K.

To gain a fair assessment of relative balance of Codexes (overall; rather than specific units) with respect to other Codexes on the assumption of equally skilled players, rankings seem to be the way to go.

But precisely for that reason, I tend to exclude 4th Edition (or older). Whatever merits or flaws they have in the current 5th environment would be unanticipated at the time of their writing.

Phototoxin also rates Nids quite below all other 5th Edition books. This, IMO, seemd to be a general consensus and the basis for my remark to that regard in my original, much critizised post here.

Thus my assessment of the Nid-Codex relative to the other 5th Edition books wasn't quite so off as some people claimed it was (and subsequently put it above DE and Space Marines).

Zweischneid wrote:

htj wrote:I don't personally like ranking things, but given the options I would say that I feel that C:SM is the weakest of all the books written during 5th. I feel Eldar and Orks stand up well, despite being released under 4th rules.

Maybe. But without some sort of ranking, arguments like this always tend to go in circles over "X is not OP because you can beat it with Y", and "Y is not OP because you can beat it with Z".. .ultimately confusing a question of "un-balance" with a question of outright "un-kill-ability" which, thankfully, does not yet exist in 40K.

To gain a fair assessment of relative balance of Codexes (overall; rather than specific units) with respect to other Codexes on the assumption of equally skilled players, rankings seem to be the way to go.

That's a reasonable argument. What, then, are we basing the rankings on? Universal ability of a Codex or a particularly powerful list that does the rounds? How many other Codices it can comfortably built without trouble? With what build? Tournament success? There are very few Codices that I would consider inherently 'bad' and viewing them in a void of 'equally skilled' players doesn't work for me, as it is not how the game is played. Some people will excell with one playstyle, others with another. Some will be able to turn any army into a game winner. There are people out there who can table all comers with the Necron Codex. Some of them are on this very forum.

Whilst it's undoubtably true that there are Codices which will can offer one or more super-builds that can be extremely competitive, generally it all comes down to how you use them on the tabletop. This is why I don't like ranking systems. It smacks too much of saying 'oh, well, of course he won, he's got a better Codex.' Just my stance on the matter.

It also depends on points - IG at high poitns = leafblower. Tau at low points = made of win for example.

So you are saying there is no imbalance in 40K books?

I was simply working on the (perhaps false) assumption that some books are indeed stronger than others, and by consequence, that it is the sign of a good Codex writer to hit the "middle" more often than not and the sign of a bad Codex writer if the outcomes are highly divergent (as I claimed they are in the cases of Nids & IG, as well as to a slightly lesser degree with DE & SW). Again, knowing the current ruleset is crucial here, as you cannot judge the quality of a Codex or Codex writer on how his book works under a set of rules he didn't know when he was writing the book.

And yes, player skill is important. Perhaps more important than Codex balance. Tiger Woods will easily beat me in Golf even if he plays with a rusty crowbar and I use the newest, finest set of golf-clubs the market currently has on offer.

But that doesn't mean quality of golf-clubs is irrelevant, or that discussing the quality of golf-clubs and the ability of their producers/designers would be an entirely irrelevant topic that isn't discussed frequently and enthusiastically by golf players. Conversely, in assuming "equally-skilled" golf players (which is of course an abstraction), one would expect the player with the new clubs to fare better on average than the player with the rusty crowbar.

Similarly, a Golden Daemon winner will make a badly designed, badly-cast mini look far better than I could likely ever manage with the finest mini's ever produced. But, just the same, that doesn't negate discussion and talk about variance in the quality of miniatures.

Zweischneid wrote:So you are saying there is no imbalance in 40K books?

No, not at all. Merely that it isn't as profound or game changing as seems to be the popular opinion. More than once I've seen it blamed for what were tactical errors. I have even done it myself in the past, before I realised how pathetic I was being. Note, I'm not saying you do this, so please don't take offence.

Zweischneid wrote:I was simply working on the (perhaps false) assumption that some books are indeed stronger than others, and by consequence, that it is the sign of a good Codex writer to hit the "middle" more often than not and the sign of a bad Codex writer if the outcomes are highly divergent (as I claimed they are in the cases of Nids & IG, as well as to a slightly lesser degree with DE & SW). Again, knowing the current ruleset is crucial here, as you cannot judge the quality of a Codex or Codex writer on how his book works under a set of rules he didn't know when he was writing the book.

Surely this is more appararent of a bad design ethos company-wide. I'm not convinced that there is such a large divergence between Nids and IG myself, but I would say that the greater problem is having individual writers put the rules together. Fluff is probably best done individually, rules should be done by consensus. That's a good point, regarding the 4th/5th rules awareness of the writers though. I'm sure the Eldar and Ork books were written with knowledge of the final 5th ruleset.

Zweischneid wrote:And yes, player skill is important. Perhaps more important than Codex balance. Tiger Woods will easily beat me in Golf even if he plays with a rusty crowbar and I use the newest, finest set of golf-clubs the market currently has on offer.

But that doesn't mean quality of golf-clubs is irrelevant, or that discussing the quality of golf-clubs and the ability of their producers/designers would be an entirely irrelevant topic that isn't discussed frequently and enthusiastically by golf players. Conversely, in assuming "equally-skilled" golf players (which is of course an abstraction), one would expect the player with the new clubs to fare better on average than the player with the rusty crowbar.

Similarly, a Golden Daemon winner will make a badly designed, badly-cast mini look far better than I could likely ever manage with the finest mini's ever produced. But, just the same, that doesn't negate discussion and talk about variance in the quality of miniatures.

Oh, absolutely. I'm not dismissing the discussion of which Codices are better at what, merely that a straight ranking system is a bit too pat. For example, DE, if played well, can outmaneuver and obliterate IG in short order, every time. If played poorly, they'll be annihiliated. I think the best we can say is that some Codices have a steeper learning curve or are more specialised. It's fair to see those that don't as better. Personally, I don't.

I'm saying that actually balance depends on the points value being played as well as the actual books. For example salamander marines struggle at 1000pts but at 2000pts I do a lot better with them.

With tau they perform better at 1000pts since they can take the stuff that matters without having to 'waste' points on the less optimal units.

Yes at 1000pts SW are probably better, but for some codices 'shift' in their 'tier' depending on the points.

Zweischneid wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Either way, returning to the point, Nids are better than DE and about even with non-daemon-fighting GK, IMHO.

Ok, possible. But the DE-Codex is weaksauce incarnate anyways, and another pointless product of GW's most inept Codex-writer.

Jack-o-Black-holes-in-a-box still make my cry at what 40K has come to these days..

But the "common" or "majority" opinion here appears to be that DE are "well balanced" (which is largely Kelly-fan-wänk, not to mention desperate self-aggrandisation of Dark Eldar players who enjoy deluding themselves to be some kind of "better/advanced/more skilled" breed of 40K players) and GKs to be fairly powerful.

...that?

So sisters then.....

SpitfireArsonist wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Something goatboy said over on Bell has me thinking.

What do you think that the (assuming there is one) new SoB codex will be like?

I hate to say it, but I had a vision of a worst-case scenario where Matt Ward has Celestine rape Slaanesh in person with a chain sword after slaughtering the Emperor's Children to the last CSM and being pregnant with the Star Child via the Emperor, before declaring Roboute Guilliman to be her spiritual liege.

Eh, shouldn't they just make a small pamphlet, and mail it to the 15 or so SoB players instead of wasting their time writing a new codex?

The fact that we are so few is a badge of pride. Let the cheesy git bandwagon jumpers go play whatever is the flavor of the month marine army...

CT GAMER wrote:

SpitfireArsonist wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Something goatboy said over on Bell has me thinking.

What do you think that the (assuming there is one) new SoB codex will be like?

I hate to say it, but I had a vision of a worst-case scenario where Matt Ward has Celestine rape Slaanesh in person with a chain sword after slaughtering the Emperor's Children to the last CSM and being pregnant with the Star Child via the Emperor, before declaring Roboute Guilliman to be her spiritual liege.

Eh, shouldn't they just make a small pamphlet, and mail it to the 15 or so SoB players instead of wasting their time writing a new codex?

The fact that we are so few is a badge of pride. Let the cheesy git bandwagon jumpers go play whatever is the flavor of the month marine army...

Yeah, I have to say, having Sisters at all is about as common as having Tau as a primary (most people use them as a secondary/tertiary just for fun).

I have to say, in my 100+ battles, maybe two or three have been against sisters.

Zweischneid wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Either way, returning to the point, Nids are better than DE and about even with non-daemon-fighting GK, IMHO.

Ok, possible. But the DE-Codex is weaksauce incarnate anyways, and another pointless product of GW's most inept Codex-writer.

Jack-o-Black-holes-in-a-box still make my cry at what 40K has come to these days..

But the "common" or "majority" opinion here appears to be that DE are "well balanced" (which is largely Kelly-fan-wänk, not to mention desperate self-aggrandisation of Dark Eldar players who enjoy deluding themselves to be some kind of "better/advanced/more skilled" breed of 40K players) and GKs to be fairly powerful.

Ahhh Zwei, its nice to see you here spitting your vitol and hate for Mr Kelly & Cruddence's writing while expelling the virtue that is Mr Ward. Please take your hate and rule's Lawyering somewhere else.


Sorry people he escaped from ' that other fourm that can't be named'. Just remember Zwei...

DE have some nasty tricks. Additionally the reason there's so few SOB players is that they are probably the people who had them in 2nd ed and then inducted a few marines in 3rd ed. It's hard to actually make a full blown SoB army due to cost and availability.

Thousand Nuns wrote:So sisters then.....

Indeed.


For now, I hope that they end up something like this:

http://commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Ally&action=display&thread=10614

A lot of variety, even if it means that a lot of new units don't get models, at least that leaves conversion potential.

Melissia wrote:

Thousand Nuns wrote:So sisters then.....

Indeed.


For now, I hope that they end up something like this:

http://commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Ally&action=display&thread=10614

A lot of variety, even if it means that a lot of new units don't get models, at least that leaves conversion potential.

Very nice codex i have to say, keeping the independent flavour of sisters from guard and marines, the power stake is an evocative image i can see a canoness standing over a heretic and finishing with a two handed thrust, masterwork bolt pistols are cool too. A unit of priests charging around with eviscerators would be a fun addition.

I agree they may well go down the pure ecclesiarchy route. I for one will miss the inquisitors if they do, personally i've always biased towards them, though i suppose it would distance the codex from the GK. I like the idea of smaller sects/cults (Hospitalier?) in the book as it would flesh out the fluff and the list as well. It will be interesting to see how they are differentiated from the other imperial books.

Thousand Nuns wrote:I agree they may well go down the pure ecclesiarchy route. I for one will miss the inquisitors if they do, personally i've always biased towards them, though i suppose it would distance the codex from the GK. I like the idea of smaller sects/cults (Hospitalier?) in the book as it would flesh out the fluff and the list as well. It will be interesting to see how they are differentiated from the other imperial books.

I would expect to see more inquisitors than what are represented in the GK codex. Sisters have always been more closely aligned with the inquisition than even the Grey Knights... hopefully they will get some "slay the witch" toys. I love all the crazy old implements - stakes, crossbows, etc.

I'd love to see more rules for Blanks, and maybe even something that would let us approximate the Sisters of Silence.

Xarian wrote:

Thousand Nuns wrote:I agree they may well go down the pure ecclesiarchy route. I for one will miss the inquisitors if they do, personally i've always biased towards them, though i suppose it would distance the codex from the GK. I like the idea of smaller sects/cults (Hospitalier?) in the book as it would flesh out the fluff and the list as well. It will be interesting to see how they are differentiated from the other imperial books.

I would expect to see more inquisitors than what are represented in the GK codex. Sisters have always been more closely aligned with the inquisition than even the Grey Knights... hopefully they will get some "slay the witch" toys. I love all the crazy old implements - stakes, crossbows, etc.

I'd love to see more rules for Blanks, and maybe even something that would let us approximate the Sisters of Silence.

Not a bad shout on blanks you could make up a few alternative henchmen for the inquisitors with blanks offering some protection from psykers and/or dispruting the casting of nearby psykers. Though if the Inquisitors are left in the assassins will be as well so the culexus maybe the only inclusion of a blank/pariah.

Xarian wrote:Sisters have always been more closely aligned with the inquisition than even the Grey Knights

No they haven't.

The Sisters of Battle have always only been tangentially related to the Inquisition. From Rogue Trader, to second edition where their fluff got its only real expansion, even in the third edition codex witch hunters, their loyalty is to the Church, not to the Inquisition. Their goals often coincide with the Inquisition, and so they fight alongside them-- but their duties are to the church as its militant arm and protector.

@ Melissia, nice codex, very well (and thoroughly) done too. I think you should have added the Mortifex Priests xinfinity.

Thousand Nuns wrote:So sisters then.....

I love all this SoB discussion don't you?

I had a brilliant idea for a themed SoB army lat night because of elections. Quebec themed sisters of battle. No I'm not French-Canadian or a separatist, I just like the place I live and their Fleur de Lis Sort of inspired me. Though I need a better name than Les Soeurs du Battaile.

Portaljacker wrote:

Thousand Nuns wrote:So sisters then.....

I love all this SoB discussion don't you?

I had a brilliant idea for a themed SoB army lat night because of elections. Quebec themed sisters of battle. No I'm not French-Canadian or a separatist, I just like the place I live and their Fleur de Lis Sort of inspired me. Though I need a better name than Les Soeurs du Battaile.

Les Femme-Chevaliers de L'Empereur?


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Quebecois unite!

Hopefully we can get an Exterminatus on the block tonight.

Portaljacker wrote:Hopefully we can get an Exterminatus on the block tonight.

Made my day .

Semi-unrelated, I voted for Ignatieff.

Same, Liberals actually seem to have a plan for net neutrality and copyright reform, unlike anyone else! Also, Bloc only has 2 seats, they'll be dead soon enough.

I really want to do my plan for the SoB Quebec theme. Even though I haven't even done my first army.

I just got the Eisenhorn Omnibus, will I get any lengthly parts of him working with the SoB?

Can't say much about Canada, however, if Quebec is angling for freedom from Maple Tyranny, look to the League for aid. Those oaths sworn in the past still have weight in some places in the present.

Good idea. I'd much prefer to call it Codex: Adepta Sororitas. Leaves it much more open to include things such as sister's hospitalier (who I always pictured as being the equivalent of a 40k Mother Teresa).

Emperors Faithful wrote:Good idea. I'd much prefer to call it Codex: Adepta Sororitas. Leaves it much more open to include things such as sister's hospitalier (who I always pictured as being the equivalent of a 40k Mother Teresa).

*tries picturing Mother Teresa putting someone in an Excruciator.* *Fails*

im2randomghgh wrote:

Portaljacker wrote:

Thousand Nuns wrote:So sisters then.....

I love all this SoB discussion don't you?

I had a brilliant idea for a themed SoB army lat night because of elections. Quebec themed sisters of battle. No I'm not French-Canadian or a separatist, I just like the place I live and their Fleur de Lis Sort of inspired me. Though I need a better name than Les Soeurs du Battaile.

Les Femme-Chevaliers de L'Empereur?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quebecois unite!

religieuses avec des fusils surely. Go for it, blue and white paint scheme i take it? Can't recall too many sisters in eisenhorn i'm afraid.

Yep, no idea what colour the metal will be. I wish the PDF of the Codex had the showcase type thing to give me ideas.

Portaljacker wrote:Same, Liberals actually seem to have a plan for net neutrality and copyright reform, unlike anyone else! Also, Bloc only has 2 seats, they'll be dead soon enough.

I really want to do my plan for the SoB Quebec theme. Even though I haven't even done my first army.

I just got the Eisenhorn Omnibus, will I get any lengthly parts of him working with the SoB?

I know what you mean. But that's just it: liberals will Never EVER get the seat of power they deserve. With the left-of-centre voters split between them and the NDP, we won't get a man on top for another good, long while. I long for the days when we only had to contend with the PC and conservatives, when they right-of-centre voters were also split.

It is hard to progress as a people when you are focused solely on giving tax cuts to large corporations.

Especially now that he has a majority government and can veto anyone he disagrees with, except maybe the governor general.

Anyways, back on topic, I think you could theme them after the command structure of the 22é and name them Les Femme-Chevaliers de L'Empereur (already suggested the name, I know, but I think it works) while giving them our provincial white/blue for their colours scheme, a fleur-de-lys on their shoulder pads, do the full coat of arms on their leaders armour, write the je me souviens motto on the tanks, and re-name their leader Maurice Barile after the vingt-douze's famous general.

Good idea?


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Thousand Nuns wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Portaljacker wrote:

Thousand Nuns wrote:So sisters then.....

I love all this SoB discussion don't you?

I had a brilliant idea for a themed SoB army lat night because of elections. Quebec themed sisters of battle. No I'm not French-Canadian or a separatist, I just like the place I live and their Fleur de Lis Sort of inspired me. Though I need a better name than Les Soeurs du Battaile.

Les Femme-Chevaliers de L'Empereur?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quebecois unite!

religieuses avec des fusils surely. Go for it, blue and white paint scheme i take it? Can't recall too many sisters in eisenhorn i'm afraid.

I hope you know that isn't a translation of sister of battle, it translates as Nuns with Guns. Just thought I'd point that out in case it was a google translate fail on your part

Melissia wrote:For now, I hope that they end up something like this:

http://commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Ally&action=display&thread=10614

A lot of variety, even if it means that a lot of new units don't get models, at least that leaves conversion potential.

Sorry, but I really can't agree with that. It's got Techmarines, bikers with 2 ccws, navy dropships and Leman Russes with ordinance weapons. You've created the Sisters of Battle codex as envisioned by Ward.

Also, for the Sisters Quebecois (another name idea) you could also do the actual uniforms of the 22e, though they're ugly

(red with those big black q-tip hats)

BaronIveagh wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Good idea. I'd much prefer to call it Codex: Adepta Sororitas. Leaves it much more open to include things such as sister's hospitalier (who I always pictured as being the equivalent of a 40k Mother Teresa).

*tries picturing Mother Teresa putting someone in an Excruciator.* *Fails*

Well, they technically don't do that. They just nurse the poor heretic back to health so that he can get tortured to within an inch of his life. Again.


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And they also help out refugee camps and such, so come on. That's about as sunny as it gets in the grimdark etc.

Hospitalers do not nurse the wounds of Heretics... when it comes to those that the Imperial Creed deems "cast from the grace of the Emperor's Light", they are utterly without mercy. This would include the xeno, the mutant and the heretic.

... and these are the nice girls of the Sororitas!

They might, I suppose, use their medical knowledge, under the direction of an Inquisitor or a Canoness, to keep a subject alive for interrogation, trial (and subsequent execution)... but probably not outside of such a situation, unless the heretic looked like any other human and kept his trap shut, so that he could conceal his true nature from the benevolent Sisters Hospitaler.

IIRC, it states that the Inquisition tends not to use Hospitalers due to the heretics dying before they can talk...

Which is odd, really, since the Hospitalers, in other sources, are credited with being the most popular and famous of all the orders of the Sororitas amongst Imperial citizenry, and are credited with helping minimize casualties to IG troops in war-zones and the like. I imagine that GW had the idea of WW2 candy-stripers in mind when developing the Orders Hospitalers.

Then again, were I an Inquisitor, and had the choice between some battle-field nurse-nun and a Magos Biologis, and needed to keep a prisoner alive... think I might go with the Tech-Priest.

EDIT: Of course, it is entirely possible that I read that in entirely the wrong way, reading it as a dig against Hospitaler medical skill, and not as a credit to their zeal in persecuting the heretic... working in tech support melts the brain, I now know what living like a servitor is like... but, still, I think I would go with the Tech-Priest.... because the Sister is very likely to condemn the heretic to flaming death before the Inquisition gets the information it desires... and signs the death certificate's cause of death as "sudden, acute, prolonged human combustion aided by addition of holy promethium accelerant".

I am surprised you could say this on this site

AlexHolker wrote:

Melissia wrote:For now, I hope that they end up something like this:

http://commissar.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=Ally&action=display&thread=10614

A lot of variety, even if it means that a lot of new units don't get models, at least that leaves conversion potential.

Sorry, but I really can't agree with that. It's got Techmarines, bikers with 2 ccws, navy dropships and Leman Russes with ordinance weapons. You've created the Sisters of Battle codex as envisioned by Ward.

No I haven't, and screw you.

It doesn't have techmarines it has a techpriestess, and its statline was based off of the IG techpriest plus a bit to make her more balanced in the SoB codex. Oh wait, you don't realize that techpriests exists outside of the Astartes, indeed, the techmarine is BASED OFF OF the techpriest? Well, you've been educated.

Of course it has a dropship, Sisters need a way to get from point A, in space, to point B, on the ground, in a combat situation, otherwise they can't be deployed rapidly as needed by the Ecclesiarchy in a crisis situation. They are no Marines, so drop pods are out. But dropships make perfect sense for a small elite force of humans, and is not contradictory to the fluff as such things already exist.

The Leman Russ was a compromise. I refused to create a predator or land raider variant because that would be stealing from Marines. But the Leman Russ variant was at the time already taken by both Marines and Guard, therefor having it in Sisters owuld simply mean it's aother Imperial item used by another Imperial faction, much like the Rhino (which is used by at least four, in the astartes, arbites, inquisition, and sisters).

And the bikers-- yes, I did. The idea was a jousting or errant knight, as Sisters are based off of the Knights Templar/Knights Hospitaller/Teutonic Knights of old (Black Templar only came later on).

Well, I wouldn't say they are based off templars, as the templars were pretty much half knight/half bankers.

They are somewhere in-between Hospitallier and Teutonic about 80:20 IMHO

@ Emperor's Faithful, that isn't the sunniest 40k gets, the sunniest it gets is the 1d4chan reasonable marines and their "super-happy-korean-best-friends-forever" the Tau, peacefully negotiating for sovereignty of planets

I thought during the ecclesiarchal shake up the templars were disbanded?

Anyway I hope sob come soon...

Sob is my primary army the one I started with. I like the look of the models and have a pretty vast collection. What we are missing as sisters is a way to get units into combat faster. We have no infiltration units besides the assassins. No scouting units unless you include IG Sentinals. The current codex is still really strong and faith does provide a tool box of options that help. The faith system while complicated is the only thing in the codex that really gives us a fighting chance.

Lets talk about the including of priests so you can unlock options. This has to be one of the worest things you need a 40 point guy with no war gear to unlock half the codex. When you put any real gear on him he ends up being 60 to 80 points. Thats a bit silly and adds to the already inflated cost of things like Repentia. Arco Flags and Penitent engines. There is some major wholes in the codex and really when you come down to it the only thing worth fielding in numbers is plain old sisters in rhinos. How about a new faith power that provides our rhinos a mobile cover save! FNP in units of Seraphim. They should move the penitent engines to a elite slot they really don't belong in the heavy section of the codex being av11 open topped. Some options are way over priced. Our cost of rhinos with smoke is way to high. The cost of Seraphim for what they are is to high. Sisters Repentia are so over priced it is a bit silly. They need to reduce the cost of these troops or make them reflect the point cost.

I would also like to see the =I= henchmen included in the army. if they just copied that section out of the grey knights book I would be happy. I am sure they will remove the allies but why not just give us the units from the inducted section of the codex. One tank, platoons of men and a weak IG walker isn't that over powered. The style of guard we are already allowed to take doesn't make us over powered in the least.

Phototoxin wrote:I thought during the ecclesiarchal shake up the templars were disbanded?

Anyway I hope sob come soon...

The Templars were disbanded on charges that have since been proven false, yes, but any templar-esque 40k stuff is obviously going to be based on them during the height of the crusade.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:I thought during the ecclesiarchal shake up the templars were disbanded?

Anyway I hope sob come soon...

The Templars were disbanded on charges that have since been proven false, yes, but any templar-esque 40k stuff is obviously going to be based on them during the height of the crusade.

I think he was talking about the Frateris Templars that were disbanded due to the Decree Passive.

Well phil kelly is a great writer, so im sure it will be fine.

Zweischneid wrote:

Melissia wrote:Either one of them is better than ward for me. I don't think the 'nid codex is bad anyway... it's more the FAQs that need re-writing.

Speak for yourself. Cruddace produced the most overpowered (IG) and underpowered (Nid) Codex of 5th. It clearly shows his inability in grasping the working mechanics of 40K. His treatment of the Hive War shows utter ignorance of the fluff too.

Kelly is far worse. Things like Orks-back-in-time, Wolves on a Ferris Bueller Day off in their Thunderhawk or Vect's black-hole-in-a-box make me think his is reading or watching loony-toons while writing his books, rather than 40K stuff. Reading a Kelly Codex, I always half-expect Bugs Bunny to show up as a Special Character. And worse, he is utterly incapable of "characterization". Rather, in Kelly Codexes we're treated to the most atrocious sort of expositionary writing, say, when he tells us literaly "Vect is the most intelligent and devious Dark Eldar". Captivating, really! What's more, his rules, whether Wolves or Dark Eldar produce rather bland, uniform spam-armies. All SW armies now carry Long Fangs and JotWW-spam. All DE just do the kinda-MSU Raider Spam. There is absolutely no creativity or talent there. Oh, and lets not forget Kelly's master stroke of a guy called "the Decaptiator" who wields a weapon called "the Decapitator" and decapitates people. And if he does it long enough, the world will end! I swear, if Kelly ever writes another Marine Codex, there will probably be a SC called "Bolter" who carries a "Bolter" and "bolters" people.

Given these alternatives, Mat Ward is far and wide the best codex writer they have. All his books fall fairly well into the middle of the power (or balance) category. And more importantly, they are the most diverse and flexible books. He pioneered Chapter Tactics making the Space Marine book the gold standard of versatility. Likewise, the Blood Angel Dex with the options for Mech, Jumpers, Golden Army, all-DC, MSU, Terminator Deathstar, Dread-army, etc... alone produces brings more variety to todays gaming tables than all of the Codex from Kelly and Cruddace taken together. And in his much maligned fluff writing, Ward respects previous work (e.g. Hive War... compare his version to Cruddace version), actually made Necrons interesting and truly inscrutable for the fist time (Blood Angel alliance) and brilliantly re-invented the Grey Knights (Terminus Decree, Chapter Founding, Purifier Fortress, etc..).

I take a Ward Codex over the inept scribbling of the others any day.

So I take it you have no Idea how many people hate mat ward for what he's written.

Why don't you take a look a these.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/357650.page
http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Matthew_Ward

I'll take a Phil Kelly codex over a ward any day. Besides the previous edition of the SW supplement codex wasn't any better on the naming than the current one is.

im2randomghgh wrote:Well, I wouldn't say they are based off templars, as the templars were pretty much half knight/half bankers.

Go read about the Sisters Famulous of the Adepta Sororitas.

They basically manage the finances and households of ninety percent of the Imperium's nobility, as well as intermarriages and so on, and probably have a hand in the finances of the church as well.

Melissia I just finished reading over your codex rewrite. I think it is well done. I love some of the changes you made. How long ago did you write that up? I am a bit worried that in our new codex they will make all the sisters i3 bs 3 and ws 3. It does seem the way they are going with humans in the current edition of the game. If they do end up doing that lets hope they then give them powers that compensate for it. Like faith powers that boost them up so they are even with if not better then they are now.

larryhunkin wrote:Melissia I just finished reading over your codex rewrite. I think it is well done. I love some of the changes you made. How long ago did you write that up? I am a bit worried that in our new codex they will make all the sisters i3 bs 3 and ws 3. It does seem the way they are going with humans in the current edition of the game. If they do end up doing that lets hope they then give them powers that compensate for it. Like faith powers that boost them up so they are even with if not better then they are now.

No, sisters will have I3,BS3, WS3, and cost 5 points more. If Team Ninja writes the codex sisters will have the 'obdient' rule which makes them take a leadership test to see if the Emperor allows them to actually use anything besides a bolter.

I was reading the criticism about sisters using a Leman Russ and I wonder why someone would criticize that? The Leman Russ and Chimera are pretty much universal tools for any imperial army, except for space marines who weigh just about as much as a Leman Russ. Although anything used by sisters will have to have the obligatory flamer attached to it. Bikes are nothing special in the imperium as well, people convert IG roughriders as riding cycles of some kind(I personally use Scout bikes) because horses are much rarer to most planets.

There are afew criticisms I have towards certain weapons, but nothing like "they shouldor shouldn't have that". The marskman rifle you have is a 30" sniper rifle with another option of it being a 24" rapid fire weapon, the 30" for a sniper range seems too short for me.

The vengeance cannon is another issue. You say its ordnance and a small blast, which is impossible because ordnance uses a large blast template always. Simple fix by adding the ordnance rules to it.

R72", S8 AP1, Small Blast. When rolling for armor penetration, roll 2D6 and choose the highest result. When rolling the scatter dice, a direct hit applies 2d6 penetration, apply previously mentioned rule to both D6.

larryhunkin wrote:Melissia I just finished reading over your codex rewrite. I think it is well done. I love some of the changes you made. How long ago did you write that up? I am a bit worried that in our new codex they will make all the sisters i3 bs 3 and ws 3. It does seem the way they are going with humans in the current edition of the game. If they do end up doing that lets hope they then give them powers that compensate for it. Like faith powers that boost them up so they are even with if not better then they are now.

Basic Battle Sisters ARE I3/WS3. It's the elites-- Celestians and Seraphim-- who are WS4/I4. Sure they're all BS4, but then again they all have, bare minimum, the training of a Stormtrooper as far as marksmanship goes.

Melissia wrote:

larryhunkin wrote:Melissia I just finished reading over your codex rewrite. I think it is well done. I love some of the changes you made. How long ago did you write that up? I am a bit worried that in our new codex they will make all the sisters i3 bs 3 and ws 3. It does seem the way they are going with humans in the current edition of the game. If they do end up doing that lets hope they then give them powers that compensate for it. Like faith powers that boost them up so they are even with if not better then they are now.

Basic Battle Sisters ARE I3/WS3. It's the elites-- Celestians and Seraphim-- who are WS4/I4. Sure they're all BS4, but then again they all have, bare minimum, the training of a Stormtrooper as far as marksmanship goes.

Aren't stormtroopers and sisters put through the same kind of training similar to a commissar? I swear in the last IG codex they said that the Imperium took orphans and indoctrinated them as they raised them. They then trained them in basics and split them amongst the Commissariat, Stormtrooper, and Eccleshiariat(IIRC).

melissia I was taking about as a basic stat line for all of the sisters. And they removed stormtroopers from the Grey Knights. It has me a bit worried as a sisters player. I agree sisters are the best trained and it makes sense that some of them would be faster or better shots. The henchmen of the =I= in the grey knight codex are all BS3 makes me wonder if all the sisters will also be bs3. I hope they don't do that to them it would weaken there chances to hit by a large margin.

larryhunkin wrote:melissia I was taking about as a basic stat line for all of the sisters.

I know, and you were wrong about the stats for basic sisters, whom are currently I3/WS3.

And so what if they removed stormtroopers from the GK dex? Stormtroopers in the IG dex are BS4. Hell, mere veteran guardsmen are BS4.

I wouldn't imagine a person wearing power armor with anything less than a BS of 4 myself. There's a reason they have that shiny armor you know. They should have BS4 unless they remove the power armor and give them a 4+ save.

But with recent trends the SoB are going to be broken until the next army's codex comes out.

They aren't gonna change Sisters to carapace. That would be as hefty a recon as saying all marines now go around in flak armor.

Melissia wrote:

larryhunkin wrote:melissia I was taking about as a basic stat line for all of the sisters.

I know, and you were wrong about the stats for basic sisters, whom are currently I3/WS3.

And so what if they removed stormtroopers from the GK dex? Stormtroopers in the IG dex are BS4. Hell, mere veteran guardsmen are BS4.

Hey, don't say mere veteran guardsmen. You try surviving with a 5+ armor save, they earned that BS4.


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Melissia wrote:They aren't gonna change Sisters to carapace. That would be as hefty a recon as saying all marines now go around in flak armor.

That's my point, it most likely won't happen and anything with an armor save of 3+ tends to be BS4.

yeah well the stormtroopers we where speaking off where the same in GK as they are in WH codex's. They did away with the bs4 stormtroopers and made the equivalent warrior acolyte bs3 and he can purchase power armor. So he can have a bolter and power armor and still be BS3. Saying all people in power armor have bs4 just isn't accurate now when you look at the henchmen squads in =I= section of the grey knight codex.

larryhunkin wrote:yeah well the stormtroopers we where speaking off where the same in GK as they are in WH codex's. They did away with the bs4 stormtroopers and made the equivalent warrior acolyte bs3 and he can purchase power armor. So he can have a bolter and power armor and still be BS3. Saying all people in power armor have bs4 just isn't accurate now when you look at the henchmen squads in =I= section of the grey knight codex.

Actually, it hasn't been true for even longer than that. In the WH Codex itself, Acolyte Henchmen can take Power Armor and they are only BS 3.

And they aren't Sisters of Battle, they're Inquisitorial acolytes. Frankly, having played Dark Heresy, hitting fifty percent of the time is GOOD for an Inquisitorial acolyte.

fox-light713 wrote:http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Matthew_Ward

*reads*

LOL!

That's awesome. I'm sending that to my group right now.

There's a friend in our group who never swears. Never. Ever. After looking through the GK Codex is uttered a word I've not heard him use before: Rape. When he uses a word like that, it's hit the fan.

Evil Lamp 6 wrote:

larryhunkin wrote:yeah well the stormtroopers we where speaking off where the same in GK as they are in WH codex's. They did away with the bs4 stormtroopers and made the equivalent warrior acolyte bs3 and he can purchase power armor. So he can have a bolter and power armor and still be BS3. Saying all people in power armor have bs4 just isn't accurate now when you look at the henchmen squads in =I= section of the grey knight codex.

Actually, it hasn't been true for even longer than that. In the WH Codex itself, Acolyte Henchmen can take Power Armor and they are only BS 3.

Note I said 'tends' which means it applies to a majority but there may be some that don't follow the rule. "Smoking tends to give people lung cancer" for example.

That and they don't naturally come with the power armor compared to the Space marines, SoB, and CSM who come standard with power armor and have BS4. The only thing I can think of that naturally comes with power armor and is BS3 is the Techpriest for some reason.

That and they don't naturally come with the power armor compared to the Space marines, SoB, and CSM who come standard with power armor and have BS4. The only thing I can think of that naturally comes with power armor and is BS3 is the Techpriest for some reason.

Well and also the Space Wolf Blood Claws, Sky Claw jump pack assault troops, and Swiftclaw bikers.

Small rumour by ghost21: There will be a plastic penitent engine and new priest kit.

roadkizzle wrote:

That and they don't naturally come with the power armor compared to the Space marines, SoB, and CSM who come standard with power armor and have BS4. The only thing I can think of that naturally comes with power armor and is BS3 is the Techpriest for some reason.

Well and also the Space Wolf Blood Claws, Sky Claw jump pack assault troops, and Swiftclaw bikers.

The force organization for SW is different than regular SM.

Blood Claws, Sky Claw's, and Swift claw's are the SW equivalent of SM scouts where they are both Initiates. That is the only reason that they have the BS3

That is true. That is the fluff reason the designers decided on, that scouts no longer get the same WS/BS of their tactical brothers.

But, the question was not "Are there any power armored units that are not the equivalent training as SM scouts."
The question was "Are there any units that are come with power armour with BS 3?" The fact that Blood Claws are the SW equivalent to SM scouts has no bearing because the power armour is not an upgrade for these units, it comes standard.

No, the question was "is it likely that they will reduce Sisters to BS3", and the answer is "lol no".

Yes, I know that the overall discussion was about Sisters being reduced to BS 3. I seriously hope they aren't.

But, I was replying to halonachos, who was saying that all units naturally have power armor have BS 4. He was saying that he couldn't think of any units that naturally come with power armor yet were BS 3 except for Techpriests. I was pointing out that there are more units than that, in the younger battle-brothers for the Space Wolves.

roadkizzle wrote:Yes, I know that the overall discussion was about Sisters being reduced to BS 3. I seriously hope they aren't.

But, I was replying to halonachos, who was saying that all units naturally have power armor have BS 4. He was saying that he couldn't think of any units that naturally come with power armor yet were BS 3 except for Techpriests. I was pointing out that there are more units than that, in the younger battle-brothers for the Space Wolves.

Really, despite the fact that I said "tend to" instead of "always" you're still going to bring this up? Basic units with Power Armor tend to have a BS of 4. Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Grey Hunters, etc.

Space wolves have three units and the techpriest himself makes it 4 total. There are a lot more units that come with a standard Sv-3+ and a BS-4 than those that don't, so yes they tend to have a BS-4 if they have a Sv-3+.

I mean, geeze its just a common trend.

Sisters won't have a BS-3, they'll most likely stay BS-4 and they should be rather strong, maybe some forgeworld vehicles(if SoB do have forgeworld vehicles) will be thrown in along with some nice and shiny new vehicles.

There is no basis for Tech Priest Sisters in any existing fluff.

Something I always wondered why do almost all SoB have bob haircuts? I guess from a tactical standpoint shorter hair makes sense. Guess I answered my own question.

If that were the case shorter or braided would be better, wouldn't it?

Amaya wrote:There is no basis for Tech Priest Sisters in any existing fluff.

Look at it this way. Every Imperial army has ties with the Mechanicum why not the Sisters too. After all they need someone to maintain their sometimes very ancient gear and it won't be the Battle Sisters themselves as they spend all their "spare time" training and praying.

cyrax777 wrote:Something I always wondered why do almost all SoB have bob haircuts? I guess from a tactical standpoint shorter hair makes sense. Guess I answered my own question.

To give them that nice Joan of Arc look. It makes sense to me, as many religious orders have 'standard hairstyles.' Look at that order of monks with the bald spot, for example. I forget which one it is.

andrewm9 wrote:

Amaya wrote:There is no basis for Tech Priest Sisters in any existing fluff.

Look at it this way. Every Imperial army has ties with the Mechanicum why not the Sisters too. After all they need someone to maintain their sometimes very ancient gear and it won't be the Battle Sisters themselves as they spend all their "spare time" training and praying.

However, the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus Mechanicus have always been at odds. A tech-sister in the manner of a tech-marine doesn't make sense to me.

Amaya wrote:There is no basis for Tech Priest Sisters in any existing fluff.

I never said that tech priest sisters existed, although the presence of a techpriest is altogether possible. Every army needs someone to look after their vehicles and techpriests or techmarines are so far the only choices.

Yes, what halonachos said makes more sense. An attached techpriest would be tolerated by either side, although they'd probably both deeply resent it.

htj wrote:Yes, what halonachos said makes more sense. An attached techpriest would be tolerated by either side, although they'd probably both deeply resent it.

I don't think the techpriest would care so much, as long as the Sisters used their vehicles properly and I think that the sisters are disciplined enough to not use Chimeras as racecars or a fishing boat.

halonachos wrote:

htj wrote:Yes, what halonachos said makes more sense. An attached techpriest would be tolerated by either side, although they'd probably both deeply resent it.

I don't think the techpriest would care so much, as long as the Sisters used their vehicles properly and I think that the sisters are disciplined enough to not use Chimeras as racecars or a fishing boat.

But they'd get their faith all over them. He'd constantly catch them painting "The Emperor roolz, ok" on the sides of them, and such. Might be projecting a kind of St. Trinians vibe on the sisters here...

I'm sure they'd follow up by painting "Cult Mechanicus is rubbish!" and "Celestine 4 Fab-Gen" on their other immolators, get chased around by some tech-priests waving axes and throwing grenades, and end the segment with a pithy quote about people in that part of the galaxy starting to breed with machines.

halonachos wrote:Sisters won't have a BS-3, they'll most likely stay BS-4 and they should be rather strong, maybe some forgeworld vehicles(if SoB do have forgeworld vehicles) will be thrown in along with some nice and shiny new vehicles.

We have one, precisely ONE forge world vehicle. It's just a rhino with more firing ports and a heavy flamer basically, and even then was originally an Arbites vehicle that was given to Sisters as a favor (and because GW realized that they can't sell very many Repressors if they're tied solely to Arbitrators).


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Amaya wrote:There is no basis for Tech Priest Sisters in any existing fluff.

So? New fluff is created all the time.

Melissia wrote: New fluff is created all the time.

To back that up, Grey Knights now have a tech marine despite never having one before. not only is he a tech marine but he is psychic too. In the past we have heard that mechanicus implants (the ones sued by tech priests and tech marines) often hinder the psychic genes in humanity. So its not entirely unprecedented that Sisters may get some tech-whatever variant.

andrewm9 wrote:

Melissia wrote: New fluff is created all the time.

To back that up, Grey Knights now have a tech marine despite never having one before. not only is he a tech marine but he is psychic too. In the past we have heard that mechanicus implants (the ones sued by tech priests and tech marines) often hinder the psychic genes in humanity. So its not entirely unprecedented that Sisters may get some tech-whatever variant.

There is no reason for there to be a "Priestess of the Machine". Allowing them to take a regular Techpriest would be tolerable.

andrewm9 wrote:

Melissia wrote: New fluff is created all the time.

To back that up, Grey Knights now have a tech marine despite never having one before. not only is he a tech marine but he is psychic too. In the past we have heard that mechanicus implants (the ones sued by tech priests and tech marines) often hinder the psychic genes in humanity. So its not entirely unprecedented that Sisters may get some tech-whatever variant.

And a psychic one at that. I wouldn't like it, though, and I'd nerd-sulk about it for weeks. I'd do my best to keep it off the forums though, plenty would take care of that for me.

Amaya wrote:
There is no reason for there to be a "Priestess of the Machine". Allowing them to take a regular Techpriest would be tolerable.

What may I ask makes it so intolerable to you? To me it makes sense to not have an actual tech priest around lest either of the factions tolerance of the other's faith be tested too much.

andrewm9 wrote:

Amaya wrote:
There is no reason for there to be a "Priestess of the Machine". Allowing them to take a regular Techpriest would be tolerable.

What may I ask makes it so intolerable to you? To me it makes sense to not have an actual tech priest around lest either of the factions tolerance of the other's faith be tested too much.

Perhaps that in an army defined by it's veneration of the Emperor as the true and only god, one of them is worshipping the Omnissiah. Or, making Sisters more like Space Marines is a bad thing. Those would be the reasons I would find it objectionable, at least.

I might point out that in fluff tech priests do come in male and female. Just not in any GW sculpts because GW can't do women to save it's life.

And there's are even tech preists that worship the Emperor as the Emperor, see Blood of Martyrs.

If you had read the actual unit's fluff, which you did not I should note, it was part of a compromise between the Sororitas and the Mechanicus. A number of Novitiates skilled in technical work are to be trained as techpriests while maintaining their Sororitas duties, with the justification that the Omnissiah is the Emperor, and the two organizations want to ease their relations in order to combat real enemies. To add a bit of grimdark to it, elements of the ecclesiarchy and inquisition aren't all that fond of this decision. But not everything has to be stupidly grimdark. The Imperial organizations DO cooperate with eachother occasionally to the benefit of both!

Melissia wrote:If you had read the actual unit's fluff, which you did not I should note, it was part of a compromise between the Sororitas and the Mechanicus. A number of Novitiates skilled in technical work are to be trained as techpriests while maintaining their Sororitas duties, with the justification that the Omnissiah is the Emperor, and the two organizations want to ease their relations in order to combat real enemies. To add a bit of grimdark to it, elements of the ecclesiarchy and inquisition aren't all that fond of this decision. But not everything has to be stupidly grimdark. The Imperial organizations DO cooperate with eachother occasionally to the benefit of both!

Fluff that you created. Most of your fandex has strange stuff that has no basis in any existing fluff and thankfully will no appear in any official codex.

The new Sisters codex may or may not allow Inquisitorial units, it may or may not allow units from the Ecclesiarchy, it may or may not be pure Sisters of Battle. I think that at the very least it will be Sisters of Battle + Ecclesiarchy with a strong chance that Inquisitorial units.

I don't think the actual army list will chance very much and will probably look like this:

HQ
Canoness
Priest
Bishop
Celestian Retinue/Honor Guard

Elites
Celestians
Sisters Repentia
Arco-Flaggellants

Troops
Sisters of Battle
Fanatics

Fast Attack
Dominions
Seraphim

Heavy Support
Penitent Engine
Excorcist
Retributor

I could see them adding 3-4 new units.

Perhaps a SoB walker, new transport (official Repressor?), counter charge unit, ranged vehicle.

I wouldn't be surprised if they got access to either Valkyries, Vendettas or Stormravens.

If its the one and only forgeworld model out for Sisters, the repressor will probably be a new model and basic unit.

I would be shocked if SoB got a Stormraven actually. Sisters seem to be like the red headed step children of the imperial armies and they have stuff from the basic armies and groups(Tanks from IG and Transports from Arbites) while not really getting too much from the Space Marines(Rhino sure but they get the really, really old ones).

If anything they may get their own version of the Valkryie, one with flamers in every conceivable place.

halonachos wrote:I would be shocked if SoB got a Stormraven actually. Sisters seem to be like the red headed step children of the imperial armies and they have stuff from the basic armies and groups(Tanks from IG and Transports from Arbites) while not really getting too much from the Space Marines(Rhino sure but they get the really, really old ones).

Umm. Power Armor and Bolters are high-end gear. There is nothing to indicate that their Rhinos are old ones either and they have their own STC for Immolators and Exorcists. So where are you getting this from?

If anything they may get their own version of the Valkryie, one with flamers in every conceivable place.

A flyer with flamers? Umm. Yeah.

pretre wrote:

halonachos wrote:I would be shocked if SoB got a Stormraven actually. Sisters seem to be like the red headed step children of the imperial armies and they have stuff from the basic armies and groups(Tanks from IG and Transports from Arbites) while not really getting too much from the Space Marines(Rhino sure but they get the really, really old ones).

Umm. Power Armor and Bolters are high-end gear. There is nothing to indicate that their Rhinos are old ones either and they have their own STC for Immolators and Exorcists. So where are you getting this from?

The fact they have nothing besides the Exorcist and Immolaters(both of them based off of the Rhino chassis with added flamers for the immolater)

pretre wrote:

If anything they may get their own version of the Valkryie, one with flamers in every conceivable place.

A flyer with flamers? Umm. Yeah.

The sisters add flamers to everything, the whole "flame weapons that ignore invulnerable saves" is kind of their deal.

halonachos wrote:

pretre wrote:

halonachos wrote:I would be shocked if SoB got a Stormraven actually. Sisters seem to be like the red headed step children of the imperial armies and they have stuff from the basic armies and groups(Tanks from IG and Transports from Arbites) while not really getting too much from the Space Marines(Rhino sure but they get the really, really old ones).

Umm. Power Armor and Bolters are high-end gear. There is nothing to indicate that their Rhinos are old ones either and they have their own STC for Immolators and Exorcists. So where are you getting this from?

The fact they have nothing besides the Exorcist and Immolaters(both of them based off of the Rhino chassis with added flamers for the immolater)

And they have power armor, jump packs and bolters. Power armor isn't 'stuff from basic armies' and neither are bolters. As for the Exo/Immo, that's like saying that SM don't have much because Predators and Razorbacks are just added onto Rhinos.

Sisters are equipped with the best equipment that non-astartes can use. Page 2 'Armed with the best arms and armor the Ecclesiarchy can provide...'

pretre wrote:

If anything they may get their own version of the Valkryie, one with flamers in every conceivable place.

A flyer with flamers? Umm. Yeah.

The sisters add flamers to everything, the whole "flame weapons that ignore invulnerable saves" is kind of their deal.

I know what their schtick is. But why would they put Flame weapons on a Valkyrie? Unless you can shoot like a hellhound, it makes little fluff or game sense. More appropriate would be Melta weapons, if you are follwing 'their deal'. Now a Valk with 3 TL Multimeltas would be hot.

Best the eccleshiary can provide my ass. IG can use storm bolters and IG also have jump packs(in fluff but not in game).

SM started with the rhinos and also have a landraider. I would love to see different models for them, something not based off of the standard transport of another army bcause if they truly were given the best that the eccleshiary can provide then they would at least have a truly unique chassis for their army.

The meltas on the Valkryie would make sense and so would a flamer using some kind of special rule(like maybe something similar to the deffchoppa's bib bomm).

Amaya wrote:Fluff that you created.

No gak Captain Sherlock McObvious, just like any other new codex adding in new units.

Your unit list is so woefully inadequate as to be a laughable suggestion for a fifth edition codex. You would suggest that Sisters of Battle should have half to a third of the amount of options as other factions get. The most polite way I can describe that is nonsensical. If you refuse to add in new units your suggestions and ideas are pointless in a discussion of a new codex to replace the one which currently is SEVERELY lacking in unit choices.

Guys, again, canon fluff exists allowing the possibility of emperor worshiping female tech priests. They just can't 'also' be SoB. Therefor, if they were 'attached' to a Sororitas group, it would make sense, but they, themselves, would not be sororitas.

BaronIveagh wrote:Guys, again, canon fluff exists allowing the possibility of emperor worshiping female tech priests. They just can't 'also' be SoB.

Sure they can, all that needs to happen is that a codex writer decides to change that.

Just like how they changed the fluff to add in the Dreadknight, and the flying librarian dreadnoughts, and the various new Leman Russ variants, and so on and so forth.

Melissia wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Guys, again, canon fluff exists allowing the possibility of emperor worshiping female tech priests. They just can't 'also' be SoB.

Sure they can, all that needs to happen is that a codex writer decides to change that.

Granted, but I was talking to work within existing fluff. Unless you're Matt Ward, you try and match new fluff to existing fluff as much as possible.

halonachos wrote:Best the eccleshiary can provide my ass. IG can use storm bolters and IG also have jump packs(in fluff but not in game).

Just because you disagree with the fluff, doesn't mean it isn't the fluff. Sisters get BOLTERS for every girl in the army. What is the basic gun for IG? Oh yeah, a lasgun, not a bolter. Why? Because they are cheap. Why don't guard get bolters/storm bolters standard? Oh yeah, because they are expensive and relatively rare. Do IG have power armor or even carapace standard? And IG don't get JP, they get grav assist chutes and those only for super elite units. In very rare situations, they get jump packs and that was limited to one BL novel that I know of and they were not combat JP, but transport ones to get them to a hard to get to zone.

SM started with the rhinos and also have a landraider. I would love to see different models for them, something not based off of the standard transport of another army bcause if they truly were given the best that the eccleshiary can provide then they would at least have a truly unique chassis for their army.

Sure, I'd like to see something new, but that doesn't mean they aren't well provisioned. And Rhinos are not 'the standard transport of another army'. Rhinos are the standard Imperial transport. If you go back to Rogue Trader, all imperial factions had access to Rhinos before there even were Chimeras.

The meltas on the Valkryie would make sense and so would a flamer using some kind of special rule(like maybe something similar to the deffchoppa's bib bomm).

Keep in mind that if they would release Valk/Vend, that the sisters do not need more anti-infantry. They have that in spades. They need more anti-tank and long range at that. So multi-meltas or lascannons.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Melissia wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:Guys, again, canon fluff exists allowing the possibility of emperor worshiping female tech priests. They just can't 'also' be SoB.

Sure they can, all that needs to happen is that a codex writer decides to change that.

Granted, but I was talking to work within existing fluff. Unless you're Matt Ward, you try and match new fluff to existing fluff as much as possible.

Not when existing fluff is laughably inadequate to create a full fifth edition codex.

Sisters will probably get some new vehicles, and hopefully something unique to them.

SM=Rhino and Landraider chassis
IG=Chimera and Leman Russ chassis
SoB=Rhino chassis

Seriously GW, give them something new.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Granted, but I was talking to work within existing fluff. Unless you're Matt Ward, you try and match new fluff to existing fluff as much as possible.

And the thread just got Draigo'd. Good job.

As much as your haterade is quaint, you know that fluff is updated with EVERY edition by practically every single codex writer, not just Ward, right?

Melissia wrote:Not when existing fluff is laughably inadequate to create a full fifth edition codex.

Can't argue that, but what would most likely get 'ok'd' by GW would be to have them as female tech priests 'on loan' to the ecclesiarchy.

pretre wrote:As much as your haterade is quaint, you know that fluff is updated with EVERY edition by practically every single codex writer, not just Ward, right?

For once I agree with pretre, and add that this is a GOOD thing as it expands the universe.


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BaronIveagh wrote:

Melissia wrote:Not when existing fluff is laughably inadequate to create a full fifth edition codex.

Can't argue that, but what would most likely get 'ok'd' by GW would be to have them as female tech priests 'on loan' to the ecclesiarchy.

But then, if they're already making a female techpriest model, the fluff work to make them tied to the Sisters is minimal in comparison.

Melissia wrote:For once I agree with pretre, and add that this is a GOOD thing as it expands the universe.

Oh no!!! I must reverse my position immediately!!! We should go back to beastman IG, half-eldar SM and everyone with Rhinos! Rogue Trader forevas!

pretre wrote:

halonachos wrote:Best the eccleshiary can provide my ass. IG can use storm bolters and IG also have jump packs(in fluff but not in game).

Just because you disagree with the fluff, doesn't mean it isn't the fluff. Sisters get BOLTERS for every girl in the army. What is the basic gun for IG? Oh yeah, a lasgun, not a bolter. Why? Because they are cheap. Why don't guard get bolters/storm bolters standard? Oh yeah, because they are expensive and relatively rare. Do IG have power armor or even carapace standard? And IG don't get JP, they get grav assist chutes and those only for super elite units. In very rare situations, they get jump packs and that was limited to one BL novel that I know of and they were not combat JP, but transport ones to get them to a hard to get to zone.

Actually in the previous edition of the IG codex they had doctrines. These doctrines applied to the entire IG army you played and actually had the ability to make Carapace a standard armor you also had the ability to have up to 3 stormtrooper squads as one troop choice. In fact there is a planet where the IG get training similar to that of a commissar standard and receive carapace armor as a standard. Then there are the more barbarous worlds that use a lighter armor which is a 6+ save. Saying that the standard IG have flak armor is incredibly misleading when the standard varies planet by planet.

Also, if it exists in a Gaunt's Ghosts novel it pretty much is canon. And it wasn't a rare occassion, the company that normally used the jump packs(the phantines in the novel) used them normally, it was just a rare occurance for the Ghosts to use them.

Melissia wrote:

Amaya wrote:Fluff that you created.

No gak Captain Sherlock McObvious, just like any other new codex adding in new units.

Your unit list is so woefully inadequate as to be a laughable suggestion for a fifth edition codex. You would suggest that Sisters of Battle should have half to a third of the maount of options as other factions get, which is nonsensical.

The fact that you insult everyone who disagrees with you speaks volumes.

And pray tell, how many armies have 42+ different units that are actually useful?

The only army that the Sisters can be compared to would be Grey Knights and only on the basis that both are Chambers Militant of the Inquisition.

GK have

Grandmaster
Brother Captain
Brother Champion
Librarian

Paladins
Purifiers
Ven Dreadnaughts

Terminators
Strike Squads

Interceptors
Stormravens

Landraiders (and variants)
Dreadnaught
Dreadknight
Purgation Squad

15 GK units...17 if you consider all types of LRs


I see no reason for the new SoB to include a Palatine, but if they do SoB will have the minimum

Canoness
Palatine
Priest

Celestians
Sisters Repentia

Sisters of Battle

Seraphims
Dominions

Retributors
Excorcist
Penitent Engine

And as I said earlier, probably 3-4 new units.

Having a wide variety of units is really irrelevant.

The only killer weakness that Sisters have is a lack of ranged AT, which only ever bothered me against DE.

pretre wrote:
As much as your haterade is quaint, you know that fluff is updated with EVERY edition by practically every single codex writer, not just Ward, right?

Normally I ignore obvious trolls, but there's a difference between adding a new unit and adjusting fluff in small ways to have it make sense (I point to all the disappearing/reappearing IG tanks or my above suggestion of having a tech preist on loan to the ecchelisiarchy) and declaring your personal favorite SM chapter to be the greatest of all time and how it's primarch was worshiped by all other chapters except those inferior heretical idiots obviously on their way out. (Who's codecies you will then go on to write as GW attempts to drive home how they 'are not a game company').

halonachos wrote:
Actually in the previous edition of the IG codex they had doctrines. These doctrines applied to the entire IG army you played and actually had the ability to make Carapace a standard armor you also had the ability to have up to 3 stormtrooper squads as one troop choice. In fact there is a planet where the IG get training similar to that of a commissar standard and receive carapace armor as a standard. Then there are the more barbarous worlds that use a lighter armor which is a 6+ save. Saying that the standard IG have flak armor is incredibly misleading when the standard varies planet by planet.

I'm aware of doctrines. But the default armor/armament for IG is flak/lasgun. Exceptions are not the rule. As well, there are no Guard regiments that I am aware of that come stock with Power Armor and Bolter. Most of the worlds that come stock with Carapace are very rich worlds and even they can't afford PA.
The default armor/armament for SoB is Power Armor / Bolter. That's a significant upgrade.

Also, if it exists in a Gaunt's Ghosts novel it pretty much is canon. And it wasn't a rare occassion, the company that normally used the jump packs(the phantines in the novel) used them normally, it was just a rare occurance for the Ghosts to use them.

You're a bit mixed up. The Phantines are an almost-wholly air regiment. They have a tiny regiment of drop troopers that were used in Op Larisel, but the majority of the regiment is pilots and aircrew. And again, they are not combat jump-packs, but transport jump-packs.

Lexicanum (referencing GG) "With the exception of a tiny force of dedicated drop-troopers (the Phantine Skyborne), the Phantine Planetary Defence Force fields no ground troopers."


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BaronIveagh wrote:

pretre wrote:
As much as your haterade is quaint, you know that fluff is updated with EVERY edition by practically every single codex writer, not just Ward, right?

Normally I ignore obvious trolls, but there's a difference between adding a new unit and adjusting fluff in small ways to have it make sense (I point to all the disappearing/reappearing IG tanks or my above suggestion of having a tech preist on loan to the ecchelisiarchy) and declaring your personal favorite SM chapter to be the greatest of all time and how it's primarch was worshiped by all other chapters except those inferior heretical idiots obviously on their way out. (Who's codecies you will then go on to write as GW attempts to drive home how they 'are not a game company').

Aww, I'm a troll because you don't like me picking apart your hate with facts? Good times.

Small ways, eh? Have you paid attention to codexes since Rogue Trader? Heck, Sisters alone went from being entirely an independent org of the Ecclesiarcy to also the Militant Arm of the Inquisition in the WH book. I also realize (or hope) your statement is hyperbole, but when did any codex said that all the other chapters worship one primarch or that one codex was the greatest of all time. Oh yeah, they didn't.

Bah, IG still have better tanks.

halonachos wrote:Bah, IG still have different tanks.

FTFY.

halonachos wrote:Bah, IG still have better tanks.

And Sisters are the best point for point troops in the game.

Amaya wrote:

halonachos wrote:Bah, IG still have better tanks.

And Sisters are the best point for point troops in the game.

Debatable*, but I like where you are going.


*Some folks argue Ork Boyz.

So shall we start a competition of a sweepstake for when sob will be released?

Amaya wrote:And pray tell, how many armies have 30+ different units that are actually useful?

Fixed.

Oh, and the answer is "every fifth edition codex."

pretre wrote:

halonachos wrote:Bah, IG still have dbetter tanks.

FTFY.

Fixed your fix.

That and IG now have stormtrooper with hot-shot lasguns that ignore power armor saves. Nice rapid fire AP3 weapons they are.

pretre wrote:

Amaya wrote:

halonachos wrote:Bah, IG still have better tanks.

And Sisters are the best point for point troops in the game.

Debatable*, but I like where you are going.


*Some folks argue Ork Boyz.

I like Ork Boyz for CC and Sisters for shooting.

DE, GK and SW don't have 30 units, unless you count SC and then they're up in the 32-35 range.

Heck, SOB codex has 24 or so if you count SC.

And that's ignoring usefulness. One could argue SW don't make 30 useful units when you drop the 'Claw' units and Tyranids definitely drop below 30 once you get rid of the dead weight.


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halonachos wrote:That and IG now have stormtrooper with hot-shot lasguns that ignore power armor saves. Nice rapid fire AP3 weapons they are.

Umm, okay. On their elite troops. How does that equate to 'the sisters get second rate equipment'? Oh yeah, it doesn't.

pretre wrote:DE, GK and SW don't have 30 units, unless you count SC and then they're up in the 32-35 range.

Heck, SOB codex has 24 or so if you count SC.

And that's ignoring usefulness. One could argue SW don't make 30 useful units when you drop the 'Claw' units and Tyranids definitely drop below 30 once you get rid of the dead weight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

halonachos wrote:That and IG now have stormtrooper with hot-shot lasguns that ignore power armor saves. Nice rapid fire AP3 weapons they are.

Umm, okay. On their elite troops. How does that equate to 'the sisters get second rate equipment'? Oh yeah, it doesn't.

Sisters have flamers that ignore all armor saves.

pretre wrote:Heck, SOB codex has 24 or so if you count SC.

Try 14 if you mean C:WH (not counting the inquisition units, which were merged with C:GK and hopefully aren't likely to be included in C:SoB).


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Amaya wrote:Sisters have flamers that ignore all armor saves.

... on a to-wound roll of 6, after succeeding a Test of Faith, after expending a Faith Point...

pretre wrote:
I also realize (or hope) your statement is hyperbole, but when did any codex said that all the other chapters worship one primarch or that one codex was the greatest of all time. Oh yeah, they didn't.

Except in Codex: Space Marines.



BEHOLD YOUR SPIRITUAL LIEGE!

BaronIveagh wrote:

pretre wrote:
I also realize (or hope) your statement is hyperbole, but when did any codex said that all the other chapters worship one primarch or that one codex was the greatest of all time. Oh yeah, they didn't.

Except in Codex: Space Marines.

BEHOLD YOUR SPIRITUAL LIEGE!

Thanks for the pic, how about an actual quote...

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:Heck, SOB codex has 24 or so if you count SC.

Try 14 if you mean C:WH (not counting the inquisition units, which were merged with C:GK and hopefully aren't likely to be included in C:SoB).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Amaya wrote:Sisters have flamers that ignore all armor saves.

... on a to-wound roll of 6, after succeeding a Test of Faith, after expending a Faith Point...

Which has a 33/36 chance of passing and you get to decide to do it after you roll to hit.

3 Templates hitting at least 5 models, 14 Bolter Shots = 24.3 hits, 12 wounding Marines, 4 of those ignoring armor.

Amaya wrote:
Which has a 33/36 chance of passing and you get to decide to do it after you roll to hit.

??? Faith checks are based on squad size, not leadership. The rest looked right though.

Which still means there's a chance it will fail, and that even if it does pass, there's a chance you'll not get any to-wound rolls of 6 anyway. It's not "flamers that ignore all armor saves", that's horrendously inaccurate and shows one's ignorance on the topic. Hell even "rending flamers" would be better, even if that's also not accurate.

pretre wrote:

Amaya wrote:
Which has a 33/36 chance of passing and you get to decide to do it after you roll to hit.

??? Faith checks are based on squad size, not leadership. The rest looked right though.

Squad size of 10.

Amaya wrote:
Which has a 33/36 chance of passing and you get to decide to do it after you roll to hit.

3 Templates hitting at least 5 models, 14 Bolter Shots = 24.3 hits, 12 wounding Marines, 4 of those ignoring armor.

Your math is a little off. If I'm getting 12 wounds, statistically I'm getting 2 AP1 wounds not 4. The marines then stack those 1 model thanks to wound allocation. Marines may lose 3 more marines due to failed saves.

You are also assuming that the Sisters have not taken any casualties in your ability to pass their Faith check. Battle Sisters aren't exactly over powered or even terribly competitve in 5th edition, they are mildly so.

andrewm9 wrote:

Amaya wrote:
Which has a 33/36 chance of passing and you get to decide to do it after you roll to hit.

3 Templates hitting at least 5 models, 14 Bolter Shots = 24.3 hits, 12 wounding Marines, 4 of those ignoring armor.

Your math is a little off. If I'm getting 12 wounds, statistically I'm getting 2 AP1 wounds not 4. The marines then stack those 1 model thanks to wound allocation. Marines may lose 3 more marines due to failed saves.

24 hits, 12 normal wounds, 4 AP 1 wounds. I.e. 16 wounds from 24 hits.

16 bolter shots (eight sisters including the superior with bolters), 10.72 hits at BS4. Of these, 3.59 will wound T4 at AP5, 1.82 will be AP1 wounds.

How many flamer hits you get depends on range and your enemy's ability to not bunch their infantry up, but I sincerely doubt you'll get fourteen flamer hits on average even with two flamers (Which is not an ideal build for Sisters) against someone who expects to be up against a flamer based build and plays accordingly-- especially a Marine player. Assuming you do somehow manage to get fourteen flamer hits, of these, 4.69 will wound T4 at AP5, 2.38 will wound T4 at AP1, resulting in an average of 8.34 total unsaved wounds.

That assumes that you can actually get fourteen hits with a flamer or two.

...Which is hard when usually there's only 5 or 10 marines in a squad...

Phototoxin wrote:...Which is hard when usually there's only 5 or 10 marines in a squad...

If there's only 5 men in the tactical squad then yeah, its impossible for two flamers to get 14 hits. You need a minimum of seven marines under the template to get the 14 hits from two flamers. It should be relatively easy to get seven guys under a flame template unless the opponent made a single file line of marines with each one being the maximum two inches apart.

They may change the faith system though. From earlier posts it looks like it'll work like the IG order system which seems easier to use compared to the faith system they have now. They may also give more heroes that grant the army overall traits similar to the Space Marines. He'stan gives the army master crafted flamers and what not for example.

halonachos wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:...Which is hard when usually there's only 5 or 10 marines in a squad...

If there's only 5 men in the tactical squad then yeah, its impossible for two flamers to get 14 hits. You need a minimum of seven marines under the template to get the 14 hits from two flamers. It should be relatively easy to get seven guys under a flame template unless the opponent made a single file line of marines with each one being the maximum two inches apart.

They may change the faith system though. From earlier posts it looks like it'll work like the IG order system which seems easier to use compared to the faith system they have now. They may also give more heroes that grant the army overall traits similar to the Space Marines. He'stan gives the army master crafted flamers and what not for example.

IF an enemy bunches up an entire squad of tacticals in such a way that I can get the overwhelming majority of them under BOTH flamer templates, they're probably gonna die anyway!

...or you can all get Tau armies

im2randomghgh wrote:...or you can all get Tau armies

So I can get steam rolled by newer codice?

IdentifyZero wrote:I recently just sold off about 2000 points of metal sisters for one reason: Given how much people will pay for these girls, it was a better idea then keeping them around. That and when the new plastics come out, a sisters army might be more fun as you won't be stuck with 4 different models for your normal gals. xD

Where did you sell them if you don't mind? I have a pretty sizable Sisters army, all primed, weighted bases, several Forge World kits (exorcists), even in Army Transport foam trays. I have decided that I simply have too many painting projects and armies. I would like to unload it to a good home.

I just hope the new Sisters models look impressive.

Hopefully they will, the DE got some good new ones, the Leman Russ got some remodeling done(rounded turret), and the command squad looks really good compared to the commander with the Hitler cut and monocle.

pretre wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

pretre wrote:
I also realize (or hope) your statement is hyperbole, but when did any codex said that all the other chapters worship one primarch or that one codex was the greatest of all time. Oh yeah, they didn't.

Except in Codex: Space Marines.

BEHOLD YOUR SPIRITUAL LIEGE!

Thanks for the pic, how about an actual quote...

That would mean this Author hate is based on facts.

Things I'd like to see:

- Sister Hospitaller and bodyguard squad, that provides a FNP aura. As a non-combatant, this would allow her to work without standing on the front line getting shot herself.

- Unit of 3 special character Hospitallers and their bodyguards, that get Shen's Master of Chirurgery rule as long as all 3 are alive.

- Sister Famulous special character that acts as a liason to make an allied unit (Arbites?) Troops.

Dark Scipio wrote:That would mean this Author hate is based on facts.

Page 24 of Codex: Space Marines.

Holy_doctrine wrote:I just hope the new Sisters models look impressive.

Pretty sure it's Jes Goodwin designing them so they should be great models, just look at the new Dark Eldar line.

They will be awesome. I'm hoping that they are gothic and Baroque enough. That word got bandied around end of 3rd/mid 4th edition and to be fair the Telletubbies were more Baroque. Sure Blanche's art was gothy but the minis were good for the time.. but still not as uber as they should be.

I'm hoping that the SoB will be proper medieval style nunnery combined with armor. Ready to cleanse and purify all!


Per fides et incendia!

Blanche's art isn't "gothy", it's just dumb...

Melissia wrote:Blanche's art isn't "gothy", it's just dumb...

GW's greatest lie... convincing the world that Jon Blanche was an artist!

He's good at ideas and concepts, in that sense I think he is creative and much of the suggested creation is gothy.

As for drawing a nice picture... well I'm in agreement, he's naff.

Yeah, kinda like Image Comic's greatest lie was convincing us that Liefeld was an artist.

AlexHolker wrote:

Dark Scipio wrote:That would mean this Author hate is based on facts.

Page 24 of Codex: Space Marines.

That page talks about how other chapters aspire to the 'standards and teachings of Rowboat' i.e. the Codex Astartes. Which is perfectly true.
It never says they worship Rowboat or anything. Geeze. What's the problem?

halonachos wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:...or you can all get Tau armies

So I can get steam rolled by newer codice?

1. JSJ

2. theyre prbly gonna get a new dex, eventually

im2randomghgh wrote:theyre prbly gonna get a new dex, eventually

So you can make a thread about that instead of spamming this one with Tau fanboyism yes?

Dark Scipio wrote:
That would mean this Author hate is based on facts.

"These Chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch." - Codex Space Marines, page 24

"Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it. Others, such as the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in the eyes of others" - Codex Space Marines, pg 24

Melissia wrote:Yeah, kinda like Image Comic's greatest lie was convincing us that Liefeld was an artist.

I blame Marvel for that one.

It is talking about the codex astartes. Which almost every chapter does strive to follow. Nothing controversial there.

pretre wrote:It is talking about the codex astartes. Which almost every chapter does strive to follow. Nothing controversial there.

'..they can never be Ultramarines...' is talking about the codex astartes? I'm sorry, um, no. The whole page oozes with insinuation that the other primarchs are inferior.