Jimsolo wrote: , I think that the RH team has taken criticism, and more importantly, been willing to alter their game plan in favor of what their customers want, more so than any other gaming company I've ever had dealings with.
Sarcasm?
No, quite genuine. I've actually NEVER seen a game company give two farts about the feedback they got before. (Certainly never any feedback I've been a part of.) Any feedback I've ever participated in has gotten either a complete cold shoulder (like from Games Workshop) or a 'thanks for buying our merchandise, now piss off' form letter (like White Wolf). The fact that RH has made any alterations, ever, at all, puts them ahead of the pack in my own personal experience. Obviously everyone else has had some different experiences.
This must be the first KS involving not yet produced sculpture then. Pretty much every one that I've been a part of has been open to and responded to back critique. And while not all of them acted upon some of the critiques, none of them (WWX, Kingdom Death, Relic Knights, Darklands) have refused to stop shoping WiPs because they're too stupid or lazy to properly respond to critiques.
And I'm sorry, I have to call out their 'process:' so in that reply, they basically say they do a gakky job sculpting faces and boobs first.... On purpose? And then go back and fix them at the end? That doesn't make any fething sense at all.
Not to pile on Jim, but taking into account backer feedback and polling them is actually relatively common, especially when the matters are not about elements central to the artistic vision; for example, consider this representative update from KD:M, where Poots is soliciting opinions on custom dice, and at the same time showing off several WIPs.
Poots understands that insight into the process is exactly one of the things that attracts people into backing a project on kickstarter, so he pulls back the curtain little bit,
First off, that butt guide did indeed make me lol.
I'm sure there are other companies out there that are MORE responsive to fan criticism, I've just not dealt with them. I've been shocked that our feedback gets any response at all, honestly. It's been such a refreshing change of pace for me.
And, there is something to be said for an artist sticking true to what they envision. There's certainly a point, I mean, where the artist has to tell John Q Public that he's wrong, and stick to his guns. I'm sure we can all recall a movie, video game, miniature line, or television show that bowed to the pressure of its more vocal fans, only to wind up becoming utter garbage. (A certain television show on AMC springs immediately to mind...) I'm not saying it's always necessary, but I'm still willing to wait for the minis before I pass condemnatory judgment.
First off, that butt guide did indeed make me lol.
I'm sure there are other companies out there that are MORE responsive to fan criticism, I've just not dealt with them. I've been shocked that our feedback gets any response at all, honestly. It's been such a refreshing change of pace for me.
And, there is something to be said for an artist sticking true to what they envision. There's certainly a point, I mean, where the artist has to tell John Q Public that he's wrong, and stick to his guns. I'm sure we can all recall a movie, video game, miniature line, or television show that bowed to the pressure of its more vocal fans, only to wind up becoming utter garbage. (A certain television show on AMC springs immediately to mind...) I'm not saying it's always necessary, but I'm still willing to wait for the minis before I pass condemnatory judgment.
Well, the biggest difference is that in this instance, John Q Public is funding his work. As such, it's not a stretch to believe that said artist owes John Q Public some latitude when it comes to input. It would be a lot different if they showed WiPs and just ignored the feedback and politely said, "We appreciate all the feedback and our artists are certainly considering it!". Instead, they're basically taking their ball and going home, and their excuse is that John Q Public is too stupid to provide any valuable feedback. IMO, that's not just great PR/CS.
First off, that butt guide did indeed make me lol.
I'm sure there are other companies out there that are MORE responsive to fan criticism, I've just not dealt with them. I've been shocked that our feedback gets any response at all, honestly. It's been such a refreshing change of pace for me.
And, there is something to be said for an artist sticking true to what they envision. There's certainly a point, I mean, where the artist has to tell John Q Public that he's wrong, and stick to his guns. I'm sure we can all recall a movie, video game, miniature line, or television show that bowed to the pressure of its more vocal fans, only to wind up becoming utter garbage. (A certain television show on AMC springs immediately to mind...) I'm not saying it's always necessary, but I'm still willing to wait for the minis before I pass condemnatory judgment.
Well, the biggest difference is that in this instance, John Q Public is funding his work. As such, it's not a stretch to believe that said artist owes John Q Public some latitude when it comes to input. It would be a lot different if they showed WiPs and just ignored the feedback and politely said, "We appreciate all the feedback and our artists are certainly considering it!". Instead, they're basically taking their ball and going home, and their excuse is that John Q Public is too stupid to provide any valuable feedback. IMO, that's not just great PR/CS.
The issue of artistic integrity is one not lost on me. I am a big supporter of artists having a distinct vision, and indeed it's one of the points I support Poots on with great enthusiasm. But, and it's an important but, this is something that is important in the selling phase: are you selling your product as an artistic endeavor that is the culmination of one individual's vision, or is it a more commercial, commodified product designed to fit into a number of settings/games?
KD:M is a self-contained product line that is unified within Adam Poots' vision of Kingdom Death, which is a very identifiable style with a number of peculiar elements. If one were to ask Poots to change, say, the proportions on the females, or to tone down the grim and sexually charged setting, he would refuse, because this is his vision, his setting, his game and it's all part of one vision. Moreover, his miniatures are not going to be primarily used in anything other then his game systems: they are 35mm figures with non-heroic proportions and would look massively out of place in, say, any of GW's products.
TGG, by contrast... with all due respect to the plans to produce a game setting for these figures, I don't think it's an unsupported leap to say that TGG figures will for the immediate future find themselves supplementing and replacing models in other games systems (*cough*).
So, while I'm entirely sympathetic to the idea of artistic freedom, let's be honest that if RH comes out in the big update and, say, presents 35mm miniatures that look great, but are totally inappropriate for GW/other 28mm games, and say that the models are going to print, people will be very upset. And they will be justifiably upset, because (or so it seems for the most part) people did not back TGG to get a line of models that are part of a free-standing game that is incompatible with their existing games.
Certainly we don't expect that much divergence from what is expected, but... there are limits to the artistic latitude that will be granted to RH in this matter.
So, while I'm entirely sympathetic to the idea of artistic freedom, let's be honest that if RH comes out in the big update and, say, presents 35mm miniatures that look great, but are totally inappropriate for GW/other 28mm games, and say that the models are going to print, people will be very upset. And they will be justifiably upset, because (or so it seems for the most part) people did not back TGG to get a line of models that are part of a free-standing game that is incompatible with their existing games.
Certainly we don't expect that much divergence from what is expected, but... there are limits to the artistic latitude that will be granted to RH in this matter.
Oh, to be sure. I think I would be quite...put out if these figs weren't usable as 'not Imperial Guard.' I don't think they'll be that far afield, though.
Yeah, that was a move that baffles me to this day. Sure, you have a right to pick whatever scale you want, but common sense, not to mention business savvy would say that something along the lines of other ranges would be the best call.
BrookM wrote: Yeah, that was a move that baffles me to this day. Sure, you have a right to pick whatever scale you want, but common sense, not to mention business savvy would say that something along the lines of other ranges would be the best call.
Unless, like spartan wit Dystopian legions and Poots with Kingdom Death, you want hour product to stand on its own and not be simply a substitute for larger games.
Maybe, although picking a scale that means you'll be see as 'substitute figures' tend to end up driving what your customers want to see your produce
If you go for a unique (or rare) scale you may not sell as many but you've got less pressure to shoehorn in things to your universe just because GW players need them
I thought the real disaster of the Dystopian Wars stuff was not the 35mm (?) figure size but that they advertised them as 28mm to start with (this did change later)
(so a good number of early buyers expecting stuff to sub into GW Imperial Guard armies were just plain ripped off)
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I think the big update was some sort of metaphor. There is a big update inside each of us if only we are willing to see it.
I think that must have been a paid add on that I didn't get.
That's okay, it's all credit now! Unfortunately, the discount on enlightenment is less than it will be from The War Store, so you're better off waiting for retail.
Either that, or it isn't quite at 80% yet and I therefore haven't fully realized mine.
I just love this Kickstarter thread. Its trade secret work flow will produce so many shamefully negative memes in the next big update that only 80% of us young twitter-weaned whippersnappers will be able to find it... delicious.
Well... knowing you for the connaisseur that you are, you might have been disappointed by the quality of the casting. Ironbovin had the contract to paint one our FLGS' display army, and he had few good words for them.
Which obviously won't be the case for this project.
I bought a pack of those little (huge!) guys at my FLGS before I realised how completely out of scale they were, and I can agree that the castings required a great deal of cleanup. Also, the metal they use is great for sharp detail, but is quite possibly the most brittle material I have ever seen used for a mini, does not go well with how delicate some of the features on the minis are.
Hm, okay. Good to know. I still had the Paladins with shields (or templars, or whatever they're called) on my "eventual to buy list". I'll have to drop them even further down the priority queue...
I just can't decide if I want Iron Empire or the Kurgonovas for my upcoming sisters of battle project.... Another question is, if maybe I should solely buy the Heavy Troopers :(
Well, 100% of the big update is 80% complete, but due to the non-linear work flow it makes absolutely no sense as the vowels are the last thing to be worked on.
In seriousness, we'd all like to see some pictures, and have an answer to the question that Buzzsaw posted in the KS comments.
Raging Heroes
Well, after finishing the Jailbirds Troopers, we really felt like they were now one notch above the IE and KST Troops...
So we are now giving an extra round of polish to the Iron Empire and the Kurganova Shock Troops so that each army is at its best.
I'm fighting with the guys to get images out by the end of the week-end... Wish me luck!
Raging Heroes
Well, after finishing the Jailbirds Troopers, we really felt like they were now one notch above the IE and KST Troops...
So we are now giving an extra round of polish to the Iron Empire and the Kurganova Shock Troops so that each army is at its best.
I'm fighting with the guys to get images out by the end of the week-end... Wish me luck!
END OF THE WEEK-END
Next week's week-end?
So mid-October then, based on past posting by RH. That said, they'd damn well better be jaw-dropping models.
Just to clear something up; once more complete images do start showing up, will they be subject to critique/modification, or will they be "set in stone" and on the way to the casters?
in the comments a week ago, and have contacted them through the KS mail feature and... nothing yet. Is there a passenger pigeon I ought to be chartering or how do people have luck getting questions answered? I think it a fairly innocuous question as well, it's either "yes, we will take feedback" or "no, the models will be final".
Raging Heroes wrote:Well, after finishing the Jailbirds Troopers, we really felt like they were now one notch above the IE and KST Troops...
So we are now giving an extra round of polish to the Iron Empire and the Kurganova Shock Troops so that each army is at its best.
I'm fighting with the guys to get images out by the end of the week-end... Wish me luck!
This would be more useful if we had any point of reference to know what the other units looked like before.
That's what it'd mean to me as well. Though RH have shown that they have their own concepts of time and periods since the KS launched. So I wouldn't expect anything in the next 72 hours.
I just find it baffling that they are seemingly either unwilling or unable to disclose whether the renders (in the much prophecised "big update") will be subject to revision or not.
This isn't some gotcha question, it's something that will have to be disclosed as soon as the update goes public anyway and, frankly, I'm not even sure I have strong feelings either way. But they seem unable to answer, and that makes me wonder why.
Well, one possibility is that they just don't have an answer right now and need to discuss it internally. They've mentioned that a couple of times in the past when people have been trying to get questions answered. One of which was a question I'd asked via PM.
It is baffling / irritating when they handle questions that way though. Especially something as basic as this.
Guys I missed out on this, so I have a questions. When will they come out and will it be available at retail? I don't want to assume anything.lol
They look like great sculpts and wished I could buy them now with the sob update coming up. Truth be told I really want them for my RPG adventures in DH. Simply gorgeous sculpts! If the robotech ks hadn't come along I'd be in on this.
They've not, iirc, given a definite retail release date yet. Though the last talk was about shipping each wave out and then making it available to the general public.
Nem wrote: Well, one possibility is that they just don't have an answer right now and need to discuss it internally. They've mentioned that a couple of times in the past when people have been trying to get questions answered. One of which was a question I'd asked via PM.
It is baffling / irritating when they handle questions that way though. Especially something as basic as this.
While that is a possibility, that would seem to be a very bad scenario if so; that is, in the next few days ("end of the weekend" was batted about?) this update will be forthcoming and... then what? They really don't know if they will be accepting feedback or not?
Not to be conspiratorial, but it seems more likely that they don't want feedback, but realize that coming out and saying that will not be well received. So they plan on revealing the renders, glossing over the feedback point and hoping that there isn't too much negative critique. If there is they can just pull the "oh, your satisfaction is always important to us, of course we're taking your feedback into account" (since no one can see you grit your teeth on the internet ).
BobtheInquisitor wrote: If I were a betting man, I'd wager that RH are planning to personally stinky-hand the models of each backer who leaves feedback.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: If I were a betting man, I'd wager that RH are planning to personally stinky-hand the models of each backer who leaves feedback.
Dare I ask? "Stinky hand?"
Google is probably your friend.
Maybe.
After all, Bob likes to drop "ice cube" action references too...
Asharah Raging
We're tracking quite nicely to share the sculpts of the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Troopers by the end of the week-end. Meanwhile, in response to the many many messages we've received this week, stay tuned for a great big treat tomorrow on... the Dark Elves!
Not to be conspiratorial, but it seems more likely that they don't want feedback, but realize that coming out and saying that will not be well received. So they plan on revealing the renders, glossing over the feedback point and hoping that there isn't too much negative critique. If there is they can just pull the "oh, your satisfaction is always important to us, of course we're taking your feedback into account" (since no one can see you grit your teeth on the internet ).
After their reaction last time we had something to critique, whilst it was still possible to make large changes, I tend to agree with you on that point. Easy enough to gloss over that way if they're not taking most of the feedback seriously. Though I think they'd have to do something if a number of sculpts were universally disliked, even if it's just bring out the old adage about an unhappy person telling ten others.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Does this mean that they've been working on the Dark Elves Kickstarter when they were supposed to be working on the already-paid-for kickstarter?
Apparently, 100% of all their KS projects are 80% ready to launch...
Though, they have said a number of times that their concept artist had finished his work for TGG and they were trying to decide what to work on next. Hence the first two updates after they got back from a post-KS holiday were focused on future projects. So, if it's just concept art and a vague date then that'd be fine. If it's anything close to finished product then people are going to explode. Only reason they're going to show something off now though is due to the GWDE releases happening at the moment.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: But how smart of them would it be to unveil a slew of concept art only to have it release a few years down the line?
That's the thing, not to go off on too great of a tangent, but it would seem to me that RH has gotten scooped (and scooped hard) on Dark Elves. By next month anyone that is into GW style Dark Elves will have new... everything? Plastic kits for Witch Elves certainly, as well as a new book to go with it.
If I were to give advice to them (and they have made it pointedly clear they have no interest in my advice, so comme ci comme ça) I would advise them to push the Space Nuns. In two weeks or so there will be a new Adepta Sororitas book (digital), with no corresponding kit releases and no prospect for kit releases. So you'll have a group of enthusiasts primed to buy, but with nowhere to spend their money.
That seems a much more fertile ground then people looking for Dark Elves/Eldar, as those groups are currently or in the very near future going to be enjoying some of the most modern figures in GW's lines. In other words, jumping on Dark Elves now is jumping into a very crowded pool with loads of active competition, plastic competition at that!
Asharah Raging wrote:We're tracking quite nicely to share the sculpts of the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Troopers by the end of the week-end. Meanwhile, in response to the many many messages we've received this week, stay tuned for a great big treat tomorrow on... the Dark Elves!
I'm sorry, what?
edit.
Now I'm really glad I've only put in a small pledge, because I've got a bad, bad feeling all of the sudden.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Does this mean that they've been working on the Dark Elves Kickstarter when they were supposed to be working on the already-paid-for kickstarter?
Right, their concept artists are probably all done on the super secret Raging Heroes concept stuff, but is it okay that part of me is still rather annoyed by this?
It's perfectly fine, I'd say. The constant chatter about future projects in a couple of the updates was annoying enough, without actual pictures to go with them.
It'd be a different kettle of fish if Wave 1 of TGG had already been shipped. Even if the concept artist is working on them, we don't need to see them, where as final renders / prints / whatever from this KS are more important.
I wonder, say they show off what's coming for the next KS project, in an attempt to try and build hype for that one well in advance, how will they react to the community reaction this time round?
To say nothing of the fact that RH is a tiny, tiny company. It seems passing strange that they would employ someone who is so specialized in focus that once the concept art stage is done they are completely free and need to move onto the next project.
Not that that is impossible, it's often remarked in discussions of video game companies like Blizzard that the concept and art team efforts don't necessarily impact on things like mechanics... but Blizzard is, shall we say, a bit bigger then RH...
Buzzsaw wrote: To say nothing of the fact that RH is a tiny, tiny company. It seems passing strange that they would employ someone who is so specialized in focus that once the concept art stage is done they are completely free and need to move onto the next project.
Not that that is impossible, it's often remarked in discussions of video game companies like Blizzard that the concept and art team efforts don't necessarily impact on things like mechanics... but Blizzard is, shall we say, a bit bigger then RH...
I'd say RH is probably a little bigger then us, and our concept art guy doesn't do anything but concept art and is always moving onto the next project/working on 6+ projects at once.
Right, like I said, the artists move on to other stuff, I'm just a bit peeved that TGG is being kept in the dark but hey hey hey, here is the next thing we're going to do!
Buzzsaw wrote: To say nothing of the fact that RH is a tiny, tiny company. It seems passing strange that they would employ someone who is so specialized in focus that once the concept art stage is done they are completely free and need to move onto the next project.
Not that that is impossible, it's often remarked in discussions of video game companies like Blizzard that the concept and art team efforts don't necessarily impact on things like mechanics... but Blizzard is, shall we say, a bit bigger then RH...
I'd say RH is probably a little bigger then us, and our concept art guy doesn't do anything but concept art and is always moving onto the next project/working on 6+ projects at once.
I think I'm misunderstanding something in that: I thought Heath Foley was a freelancer, is he not? By contrast my understanding is that one of the principles at RH does their art (I recall an excuse proffered at one point where an injury to said individual was responsible for an update stall, but I may be misremembering).
But it's a fair point you make, I may be quite mistaken about their concept guy and his role in their business.
That said I will retreat to the earlier notion that it is still a silly idea to a) tease a second project when people are grumbling about the first, and b) a really badly timed moment to work on Dark Elves (not their fault, but a bad moment).
Either way, people are going to go ape gak if we see concepts or details for KS2 before we've had the big update for KS1. Combine that with the inevitable gak storm of fan boys for the images and it's all going to get very messy.
Though maybe that's why they're doing it, to create a storm of comments and then slip out the update we've been waiting for in the hopes that any negativity is lost in the mix.
Buzzsaw wrote: I think I'm misunderstanding something in that: I thought Heath Foley was a freelancer, is he not? By contrast my understanding is that one of the principles at RH does their art (I recall an excuse proffered at one point where an injury to said individual was responsible for an update stall, but I may be misremembering).
But it's a fair point you make, I may be quite mistaken about their concept guy and his role in their business.
Ah yes, Heath is a freelancer; I wasn't aware that RH's art was done by one of the staff.
That said I will retreat to the earlier notion that it is still a silly idea to a) tease a second project when people are grumbling about the first, and b) a really badly timed moment to work on Dark Elves (not their fault, but a bad moment).
I'll agree to that as well, unless these Dark Elves are not intended for a Kickstarter and are just an interim release.
Well, Nuns would make more sense given the time frames for getting something to market. More likely to get backers with the SoB codex getting a digital release shortly and people wanting variety or newer figures than the old metal GW ones. Also makes more sense than trying to shoehorn a fantasy force into their intended game system as well.
prankster wrote: Either way, people are going to go ape gak if we see concepts or details for KS2 before we've had the big update for KS1. Combine that with the inevitable gak storm of fan boys for the images and it's all going to get very messy.
Though maybe that's why they're doing it, to create a storm of comments and then slip out the update we've been waiting for in the hopes that any negativity is lost in the mix.
Oh that's right. We're still waiting on the big update from a month or so ago, aren't we? I'd honestly forgotten.
If this is the day of days then it'll not be for many hours yet. Plenty of time to go about your usual Sunday routine before the coming of the end times.
I suspect that it won't be the day of days. Wasn't the dark elves announcement supposed to be yesterday? That post suggesting we "stay tuned for a big treat tomorrow" was posted late on Friday night. Or does the fact that the actual time was around 02:00 on Saturday mean that the big treat is actually meant for Sunday? Who knows. Either way, that dark elves "treat" was due first.
And they already provided the caveat that our big update, to be available by the end of the weekend (and we still have no clue when their weekends begin and end, or even how many days they have in their weeks), requires luck and a fight.
Not holding my breath here.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or was this the treat?
alanmckenzie wrote: I suspect that it won't be the day of days. Wasn't the dark elves announcement supposed to be yesterday? That post suggesting we "stay tuned for a big treat tomorrow" was posted late on Friday night. Or does the fact that the actual time was around 02:00 on Saturday mean that the big treat is actually meant for Sunday? Who knows. Either way, that dark elves "treat" was due first.
From what I understand, the DE post was delayed till after the "Big Update" not because of any lack of writing or materials, but because it was determined that it'd be more fair to TGG backers to get their long awaited big update out the door first.
alanmckenzie wrote: I suspect that it won't be the day of days. Wasn't the dark elves announcement supposed to be yesterday? That post suggesting we "stay tuned for a big treat tomorrow" was posted late on Friday night. Or does the fact that the actual time was around 02:00 on Saturday mean that the big treat is actually meant for Sunday? Who knows. Either way, that dark elves "treat" was due first.
From what I understand, the DE post was delayed till after the "Big Update" not because of any lack of writing or materials, but because it was determined that it'd be more fair to TGG backers to get their long awaited big update out the door first.
See, this gets to me: while it's great that you are hearing these things (and thanks for transmitting it, please don't stop), why does it fall to you to have to do it?
They have a direct link to almost 3k people through Kickstarter updates. They have public comments on their kickstarter page. They have a facebook page with 1.5k friends. They have a newsletter with who knows how many subscribers.
alanmckenzie wrote: I suspect that it won't be the day of days. Wasn't the dark elves announcement supposed to be yesterday? That post suggesting we "stay tuned for a big treat tomorrow" was posted late on Friday night. Or does the fact that the actual time was around 02:00 on Saturday mean that the big treat is actually meant for Sunday? Who knows. Either way, that dark elves "treat" was due first.
From what I understand, the DE post was delayed till after the "Big Update" not because of any lack of writing or materials, but because it was determined that it'd be more fair to TGG backers to get their long awaited big update out the door first.
You apparently. Otherwise you probably wouldn't be posting.
Obviously, I've pledged a lot of money. I care about the project, not so much the update or the dark elves to which I was referring. No need to be snarky.
As to your first point, you're probably right. We know that you're certainly, at least a little bit, closer to RH than most of the rest of us. I hadn't heard anywhere about the changes to the update schedule, but happy to concede to your greater knowledge.
See, this gets to me: while it's great that you are hearing these things (and thanks for transmitting it, please don't stop), why does it fall to you to have to do it?
They have a direct link to almost 3k people through Kickstarter updates. They have public comments on their kickstarter page. They have a facebook page with 1.5k friends. They have a newsletter with who knows how many subscribers.
It's a small thing, but it's part of a larger picture where what they say they will do frequently doesn't line up with what they actually do.
Yes... why use ICTs to communicate as efficiently as possible to as great a number of people as possible as fast as possible, when you'd rather run the chance of playing arab telephone (unsure if you call it thus in English). No, instead waste time on briefings with a communication team that might not have any formal training in the matter (not that you have done anything wrong, KM, you've been above board the whole time) and waaaaayyyyy too much time crafting witty updates with little relevant information. Keep those for your twitter fans.
There is some merit to the use of a volunteer communication team, if there's lots of places that are all asking questions / wanting information and the regular update channels either wont cover everyone or are too slow.
For example, compiling stuff for an FAQ / QnA style post is something that suits this method. With the final post being put out through the larger communication channels. Similarly, providing small updates from a larger set of information that's going into a general update. Both of those are something that are more viable during the campaign itself rather than at this point in time.
Whilst the information that's been provided is appreciated, it should have come in the same way as the original posting about the DE teaser.
Yes... why use ICTs to communicate as efficiently as possible to as great a number of people as possible as fast as possible, when you'd rather run the chance of playing arab telephone (unsure if you call it thus in English).
Closest thing that comes to mind in Chinese Whispers. Though even if the communication is being passed through volunteers to spread the word rather than using an existing communication channel, this shouldn't really happen. As all the heralds should get the same information that they can pass on via their forums / blogs / sky writing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It's good that we're still on track for the update today though, just a shame that that equates to midnight / early AMUK time... guess I'll not be getting much done at work in the morning.
Sounds like rumour telephone to me. I tell a girl I got a cold and ten minutes later I get a text from someone telling me he's so sorry to hear that I'm dead.
But yeah, I've got a feeling that if this update is going to happen, it won't happen until three or five in the morning, my time, that's what they did with the KSIIRC.
I wouldn't stay up if you weren't going to be up anyway, the chance they'll actually manage to get an update out the door on schedule isn't high given past performance. If they do, great, but I'm not holding my breath.
Yodhrin wrote: I wouldn't stay up if you weren't going to be up anyway, the chance they'll actually manage to get an update out the door on schedule isn't high given past performance. If they do, great, but I'm not holding my breath.
Indeed, I'll see in the morning when I check my mail over a cuppa something. The perfect spit take moment, the TTG update!
alanmckenzie wrote: By the way KM, slightly off the topic of updates. Did you ever have any luck passing on buzzsaw's question the other day?
Just thinking that it'll maybe come up again after the update.
Even I got stone walled on that one, and I chat with their comms team member fairly regularly (We're in similar industries, so we can commiserate now and then) so we'll see guys. I'm thinking the answer will be in the update.
Yeah, kinda think they won't be subject to change. They've spent so long on them that I'm sure they'll be final. Not too worried about that though, I've never once been in any doubt that the final sculpts here will be, on the whole, totally wicked. Certainly the heroines and troops anyway.
alanmckenzie wrote: Yeah, kinda think they won't be subject to change. They've spent so long on them that I'm sure they'll be final. Not too worried about that though, I've never once been in any doubt that the final sculpts here will be, on the whole, totally wicked. Certainly the heroines and troops anyway.
I'm less concerned with how awesome they are than I am in which scale they ended up going with, since they still haven't even been arsed to confirm that for us one way or another.
RH don't exist inside our normal human frame of reference, instead they occupy their own folded pocket of subspace-time where concepts such as "minutes", "hours", and "common courtesy" no longer exist. At RH HQ they have a clock which is in fact a pie-chart with a single hand, said hand moves with variable speed and is powered by angst and ennui. It is divided as follows;
40% slice marked "Tumblr Time"
6% slice marked "Indignant huff"
9% slice marked "Condescend to customers"
30% slice marked "Engage in revelatory industry-first super tip-top-secret creative process"
14% slice marked "Talk about posting amazing updates soon and how amazing they'll be"
1% slice marked "Actually post updates"
Reading this thread is a guilty pleasure of mine at times but I do hope that this update, when it comes, is able to put people's minds at ease. We'll see!
Seeing as this weekend is pretty much over, we're still on pace for RH being more late than on time with delivering their updates when promised. My current guess is this coming Friday (11th) we'll see an update. I'd love nothing more than to be proven wrong, however.
As for the lack of updatery; at this point I'm done caring. The faction in the KS comments with their tongues firmly buried up RH's are now taking the tack that gathering feedback is pointless, because either you'll never get unanimous opinion, or because most of us are too thick to give useful feedback, or BECUSZ ARTZ, delete as applicable. So even if we do get an update, they're not going to accept anything other than praise in response.
As for the lack of updatery; at this point I'm done caring. The faction in the KS comments with their tongues firmly buried up RH's are now taking the tack that gathering feedback is pointless, because either you'll never get unanimous opinion, or because most of us are too thick to give useful feedback, or BECUSZ ARTZ, delete as applicable. So even if we do get an update, they're not going to accept anything other than praise in response.
I believe that was an 80% joke.
Also, they can't reveal what "end of the week-end" (note! not the end of the weekend) means because clearly the manner in which they measure time is done in a highly secret practice that can not be disclosed for fear that the industry would steal it.
See, this is why I went in on the Defiance Games Kickstarter--$25 could buy me 180 minutes worth of entertainment at the movies, or months (years?) of entertainment via Dakka Dakka's Infamous Kickstarter Threads.
I want to thank everyone who covered the RH round. Truly, your pledges were the gift that keeps on giving.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: See, this is why I went in on the Defiance Games Kickstarter--$25 could buy me 180 minutes worth of entertainment at the movies, or months (years?) of entertainment via Dakka Dakka's Infamous Kickstarter Threads.
I want to thank everyone who covered the RH round. Truly, your pledges were the gift that keeps on giving.
Well, you're welcome.
I'll say again though, I have absolutely no doubt that I'll be delighted with the final product here. Might be late, but that isn't a huge issue for me.
It's just that the way they do things is sometimes just baffling. From the weirdness, to the quietness, to the seeming random likelihood of their replying to questions, to the odd instant of downright rudeness, to their selective and confusing use of "week end", "week-end" and "weekend". It's all just absolutely baffling.
None of it angers me, (though some of it occasionally slightly shocks me) but it all does baffle me. I try not to post to much on here, and when I do, I try to be sensible and considerate (sometimes I'm a little quicker to post than I should be), I never try to upset anyone. But I am glad that this thread is here to discuss the strangeness of it all. It's certainly a nicer, friendlier and safer place to be than the KS comments.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Word I just got is that they aren't satisfied with the images as present, since everything isn't perfect so they are changing it.
My friend has that syndrome. All of his fingernails are tiny nubs because he has to keep clipping them until they are just right.
I am now anticipating the Wyld Stallyns of miniature design.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Word I just got is that they aren't satisfied with the images as present, since everything isn't perfect so they are changing it.
"I know, I know, no images yet. Well, most of you have all said we should do the TGG images first, so that's what we're doing. The DE images ARE READY. Have been for a while. But the TGG: we won't show images until we are happy with them. After a 40 hours week-end, things were not perfect enough for us to show them yesterday. Could be tonight, could be tomorrow. But believe us when i say that we are just as eager as you are "
Automatically Appended Next Post: Em... I didn't put the ork in. There was a smilie in the post, and it seems to have pasted itself as an ork.
Well, not entirely unexpected but still a little disappointing tbh. Especially given the bit about having the DE stuff ready to go but community feedback making them change the order they were doing things. This shouldn't need community feedback, it should have been common sense in the first place.
Dude... are they some kind of ... sorry... stupid?
Seriously. How can anyone think that the way they are handling this is in ANY kind or form seen positively?
Let me clear my statement:
It has been 100% UP TO THEM TO ANOUNCE PICTURES AND ANY OTHER INFORMATION. No one forced them to do so. But it is so incredible unbelievable that they manage to screw that in the end.
IF YOU DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO SHOW, DON'T PROMISE IT!
Just got this as a Facebook msg.
It really looks like they just don't understand what is going wrong.
Hi RoninXiC,
I am glad that you appreciate our updates. However, the nature of what we do means that nothing is ever cast in stone. And indeed, a kickstarter does tend to plunge backers in the same flux of ambiguity and uncertainty that we, as entrepreneurs, have to live with every day.
I can understand that can be disconcerting.
That is why I try to make sure to say in my posts things like "We're tracking quite nicely...", or "I'll do my best for the end of the week-end, wish me luck".
If we don't follow through on something we said we'd do, it's never for lack of trying. We worked the entire week-end, 40 hours straight, and it's still not done. It's not done because in a creative process, there are always times when something just doesn't work, and we'll work on it until it does.
It's disheartening that we work so damn hard to get something right, and then we read comments such as the one you wrote. I'm pretty sure you'd feel the same way if it were you... Believe me, if I could, I'd show everything now, and move on to the next project. But that would not be fair to you, to the backers, to the brand, to us.
I don't know how to prevent you from being disappointed. I wish I did. Because, let's face it, we're doing miniatures. For playing. For what, ultimately, will be a fun experience.
But it's a hard process, birthing these gals. And I need to keep my team's spirits up, and sometimes, that means deleting a comment that I know will drive them up the wall. Because otherwise, how am I going to keep getting them to work week-ends and late late nights?
Comments that you write on our page can contribute to that, and are most welcome. Because as a backer, you can help in that way. It has and it does makes a big difference.
And if you're at any time annoyed at some thing in some way, please, drop me a private message. I'll do my best to fix things for you. But I can't get into a shouting match on my page
Looking forward to your feedback,
Best,
Mireille
I don't get why this group of people don't understand that all we want as backers is just a shred, a hint, even a single sentence or a WIP picture, of where the pledging money has gone, and for RH to uphold their end of the deal when they say they're going to do something, and then fail to follow through.
We don't want to hear excuses about your delays or mishandling of promises and deadlines unless they're serious (a good example of this is Poots over in the Kingdom Death: Monster KS, where he flat out said "I'm not satisfied and don't want to release inferior product. And here's some test pieces as well to show what I mean." He's maintained a strong post-KS presence as well, showing off work quite often.)
The KS launch delays I guess were major foreshadowing of how the project would turn out in terms of the time table, but at this point, all we want is a single update that shows us there's work being done - 1%, 5%, 50%, 75%, 99.99% done, who cares: What do the models look like at this stage of the process. What were some of your design decisions. What have you been doing to track wave shipments. What would you like to have done by certain dates, and what needs to get done for the next round of updates.
I think the problem is, RH is too protective of their work. They're afraid of criticism, and I believe that's hurting their PR image and upsetting their backers. I'm fairly certain this whole thing can be fixed if they just DO, and stop SAYING they'll do.
They need to just put it out there, and the people that like it will most likely say so, and the "vocal minority" will do their thing, and they either choose to ignore them, confront them, or adapt. In the end they'll have made something, and time will tell whether or not their decisions leading up to a finished product were good or poor.
But for the love of pancakes, Raging Heroes, just friggin' DO SOMETHING to show us that you're aware your supporters want to see the product the've pledged for, and you've continued to delay that process without any sort of visible remorse or recompense.
-iPaint- wrote: I don't get why this group of people don't understand that all we want as backers is just a shred, a hint, even a single sentence or a WIP picture, of where the pledging money has gone, and for RH to uphold their end of the deal when they say they're going to do something, and then fail to follow through.
I'd say yes to pictures, no to sentences. They are the boy who cried wolf - they have said too much that has been proven untrue, and nothing that has been proven true. If they want us to take their claims seriously they need to start posting that proof, because at the moment their project is indistinguishable from one that stalled at the concept sketch stage.
RoninXiC wrote: Just got this as a Facebook msg.
It really looks like they just don't understand what is going wrong.
Hi RoninXiC,
I am glad that you appreciate our updates. However, the nature of what we do means that nothing is ever cast in stone. And indeed, a kickstarter does tend to plunge backers in the same flux of ambiguity and uncertainty that we, as entrepreneurs, have to live with every day.
I can understand that can be disconcerting.
That is why I try to make sure to say in my posts things like "We're tracking quite nicely...", or "I'll do my best for the end of the week-end, wish me luck".
If we don't follow through on something we said we'd do, it's never for lack of trying. We worked the entire week-end, 40 hours straight, and it's still not done. It's not done because in a creative process, there are always times when something just doesn't work, and we'll work on it until it does.
It's disheartening that we work so damn hard to get something right, and then we read comments such as the one you wrote. I'm pretty sure you'd feel the same way if it were you... Believe me, if I could, I'd show everything now, and move on to the next project. But that would not be fair to you, to the backers, to the brand, to us.
I don't know how to prevent you from being disappointed. I wish I did. Because, let's face it, we're doing miniatures. For playing. For what, ultimately, will be a fun experience.
But it's a hard process, birthing these gals. And I need to keep my team's spirits up, and sometimes, that means deleting a comment that I know will drive them up the wall. Because otherwise, how am I going to keep getting them to work week-ends and late late nights?
Comments that you write on our page can contribute to that, and are most welcome. Because as a backer, you can help in that way. It has and it does makes a big difference.
And if you're at any time annoyed at some thing in some way, please, drop me a private message. I'll do my best to fix things for you. But I can't get into a shouting match on my page
Looking forward to your feedback,
Best,
Mireille
The process would probably be quicker and less painful if they were birthing these girls, And the artists would be about as emotionally fragile.
@Renegademech "Could we see the Jetgirls concept art?"
Absolutely they are done and we will show them this week.
@JenG: The problems that you have run into should be things that have been corrected by now. Can you please contact me directly (contact'at'ragingheroes.com) and let me know, together with images (if you have them of course), which problems you ran into, and for which minis? We've changed casters several time since our launch in 2009 to improve quality, so perhaps the issues you discuss have now been corrected. Of course, miscasts do happen, too, and this may have been the case. Or, it may also be something that we've missed. In any case, any specifics will help. For the past year or so, we've been enclosing a card with all our shipments. This card asks our customer to contact us when they have problems, so that we can fix them. But sometimes, with blisters (the card is too big for the blister), particularly when they are purchased in various shops, the card is not included. I look forward to your message.
@Rik Baker: I'm not sure why you got the Paypal survey, unless you perhaps made an additional payment via Paypal, perhaps for shipping charges? I tried to remove from the Paypal Survey all the Paypal contributors who had only sent in their missing shipping costs, but I may have missed a couple (the Paypal History downloads do not allow for all the customisation that I would need).
As for the Pledge Manager, as mentioned before, we will open it once we have shown the images for the minis that are part of the First Wave, to help you choose.
@Thargan: "I guess you lost the fight to get the images out before the end of last weekend? Any idea when we're likely to see some images now?"
I sure did :(
And it ain't for lack of trying! We worked over 40 hours over the entire week-end, but nevertheless ran into last-minute creative issues that could not be sorted in time… We're still at it tonight at 2:30AM, so my guess would be: tomorrow. We're doing our absolute best to get them out. Good thing we have cookies and M&M's to sustain the pace… But boy, the TGG troopers are looking sweet…
I figured that the planets might have aligned so I reposted the question about criticism, we shall see...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Venus is in the house of Mercury!
@Buzzsaw: I'm still not able to answer this at this time. We at Raging Heroes always listen to constructive feedback, so we will continue to do that. The decision has not been made as to whether we will or not make modifications on that feedback. It will depend on what it is, and what the implication is on the workload, production, schedules, etc. So we are keeping all options open.
So "oh, your satisfaction is always important to us, of course we're taking your feedback into account". Who could have predicted it?
That was my thought too. Having worked 40 hours out of 52 before (if I shaved the sleep from both sides of the equation) I'm gonna have to call BS. That or, they really, really need to work on their time management.
LnR: Some further thought. If, as you say, "after finishing the Jailbirds Troopers, we really felt like they were now one notch above the IE and KST Troops...", the implication is that the Jailbirds are at top level while only the other two need polish.
So why not show the Jailbirds? Look at it this way: Kingdom Death, which at this point in time for many people is the gold standard of "oh god, such great updates!" doesn't wait for everything to be ready to push images to the backers. KD puts out what is ready when it is ready, and it has worked marvelously.
Additionally, let's consider the benefits of putting out the best look: if the aesthetic of that line is well accepted, you know that you are on the right track with polishing the other lines.
But if it isn't... doesn't it make sense to get some feedback now, rather then push your people twenty hours a day down a dead end? If it turns out the backers see something in the Jailbirds that you don't, then all the work you are currently doing on the IE and Kurg troops is just waste.
Releasing an update with only some of the figures seems to make a lot of sense, certainly more then holding onto everything to show it all at once.
I suppose I hadn't really thought of it before, but they really are clearly pursuing a path as if they are clearly aware of what the public wants, but at the same time seem amazingly frightened of actually showing people things.
Let's stop and think about how many interim iterations Poots has shown for KD:M, how many comments and unknown numbers of frank emails he is getting in feedback. It makes a great deal of sense to do it that way, since it minimizes wasting the one truly priceless thing: time.
What if, in their sleep deprived states, RH is pursuing a path that is only piling crap onto their figures? According to them they are working 20 hour days, but without a lick of feedback from the backers!
Breotan wrote: It's France. Their hours are different than our hours. And their definition of weekend is more like three or four days.
Nah, they've found a way to make their use of time in a non-linear fashion. At least 80% (+/- 80%) of those hours were taken from weekends of the FUTURE! (ture...ture...ture)
But seriously, this is hilarious. From amazing feats of project management, to being such perfectionists that they can't even show the finished work that caused them to go back and re-do the rest out of artistic integrity, all the way to working for 83% (so close!) of the weekend (on things! FOR REASONS!) and still missing their self-imposed deadline for an update. And now damage control to defend the fragile sensibilities of their sculptors lest they... Well something non-specific, but definitely something (I imagine them sulking in to a glass of wine, a single tear running down their face... damn you cruel internet!)
They are truly as good as coming up with excuses as your average university slacker (I should know, we can smell our own ).
Shine on you crazy diamonds. Now where's mah beer and popcorn?
@Buzzsaw: I'm still not able to answer this at this time. We at Raging Heroes always listen to constructive feedback, so we will continue to do that. The decision has not been made as to whether we will or not make modifications on that feedback. It will depend on what it is, and what the implication is on the workload, production, schedules, etc. So we are keeping all options open.
So "oh, your satisfaction is always important to us, of course we're taking your feedback into account". Who could have predicted it?
Assuming that they're being honest, isn't that the exact response they gave the most reasonable response to give? "Whether or not we will alter the models in response to feedback will depend on what the feedback suggests," seems way more reasonable than making an unrealistic promise to re-do them all from scratch to meet every niggling demand, or refusing to hear any kind of feedback at all. I really can't think of any more rational way to approach it, from this point, than what they did. Am I wrong?
BrookM wrote:At this point they might as well just say that they're working on it at their own pace and outright tell us "When it's done, it's done"
Because we've been asking for them to deliver on their self-imposed deadline. They can't change the message yet again.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:Pretty sure that's always been the message...
No, that's been the implied message in the lack of update. But whenever they comment it's always that the big update is coming soon, that we'll have pictures in a week, that the first wave will ship in September, that 80% of the sculpts will be done. We never asked for those statements, they were put forward voluntarily.
RoninXiC wrote:If that's the case, why are they claiming over and over again that "soon" they'll show stuff and in the end don't deliver?
I think they realized halfway through the KS that they weren't just getting free money, but that backers are twitter weaned self-entitled brats who demand progress reports, much in the way of investors (although we aren't quite that).
I've been thinking about this, and I'm about to rant, so you can stop reading here as it'll go a smidge off-topic, but is relevant to KS in general:
Kickstarter was meant as a way to bring to market a product that otherwise couldn't due to traditional banking and investment. It was meant to draw on a different model of community and creation, with "the people" voting with their wallets and creating a tight connection between buyer and inventor. What's missing in this particular example, unfortunately, is that they behave exactly like they got investment capital but without any strings attached since there is no interest and they didn't have to pitch it to a bank and have to be held accountable for it. It's not illegal, I wouldn't go so far as call it morally wrong, but it perverts the spirit of Kickstarter. It falls right back into the commodity fetichism that this system was built to counteract. It's crass. It removes all the feel-good aspect of Kickstarting a struggling band of misfits.
Kickstarter does have allowance for refunds and people can challenge the payments they've made to the company. This is why communication is all important during and after a campaign because those funds are still at risk of backers pulling out.
Now granted one or two won't generally affect things (unless they invested a vast amount), but it can snowball if the community loses faith and if promenant backers announce and pull out.
It's why its very important for a company running a KS where the money is going into development and refinement of the product to keep the backer community in the loop. The more they do the more they can keep the faith; and in most cases well informed backers have no problem at all with significant delays because they've seen the progress as its going on - especially so for projects like this which grow significantly in content and orders over the course of the funding period.
the communication aspect isn't just a desirable or idealistic part of Kickstarters - its a core element in running one well and its a key area that many companies fail to appreciate as they do often just treat it like a big pre-order. KS isn't (in most cases) a pre order and to treat it as such is inviting problems.
@Buzzsaw: I'm still not able to answer this at this time. We at Raging Heroes always listen to constructive feedback, so we will continue to do that. The decision has not been made as to whether we will or not make modifications on that feedback. It will depend on what it is, and what the implication is on the workload, production, schedules, etc. So we are keeping all options open.
So "oh, your satisfaction is always important to us, of course we're taking your feedback into account". Who could have predicted it?
Assuming that they're being honest, isn't that the exact response they gave the most reasonable response to give? "Whether or not we will alter the models in response to feedback will depend on what the feedback suggests," seems way more reasonable than making an unrealistic promise to re-do them all from scratch to meet every niggling demand, or refusing to hear any kind of feedback at all. I really can't think of any more rational way to approach it, from this point, than what they did. Am I wrong?
I'm going to disagree with you fairly strenuously: I'd go so far as to say that they way they chose to answer that question is close to the worst way to answer it. Let's take a quick look at this from a PR standpoint;
"I'm still not able to answer this at this time." First of all, reading the rest of their comment makes it clear they do have an answer, as you'll see.
"We at Raging Heroes always listen to constructive feedback, so we will continue to do that": Note the "constructive" bit. So if they aren't listening to you, it's your own damn fault for not being constructive. If it was constructive it would be listened to.
"The decision has not been made as to whether we will or not make modifications on that feedback." And guys, you may be constructive, and we may "always listen to constructive feedback", but that doesn't mean we always do something about it. But they care. Or something.
"It will depend on what it is, and what the implication is on the workload, production, schedules, etc." This may be the dumbest single sentence in that answer, because prior to here there was a perfectly good point they could be advancing. Which they just kicked in the nuts by saying that the important factor is "workload, production, schedules, etc". So if (for example) the backers cry out "why did you give then rhino noses?" the important thing is not fixing the schnozes, but the impact on "workload, production, schedules, etc". Ugh.
"So we are keeping all options open." Aaaaaaaargh. See, this bit makes everything that came before it irrelevant. It also means that the images shown are clearly not ""set in stone" and on the way to the casters". Let's assume it's actually true, how should they have answered the question?
Q: Just to clear something up; once more complete images do start showing up, will they be subject to critique/modification, or will they be "set in stone" and on the way to the casters?
A: We're listening to feedback and keeping all options open.
There is no functional difference between how they answered it and how I suggest they should have answered; I just took out the insulting bits and the parts that make them seem scatterbrained.
_______________________________
Now, having said all that, let's be clear: I don't want this company to do bad nor do I wish bad things on them. I'm just blown away by how they are sabotaging themselves in the PR department.
The stretch of time between the end of the KS campaign and fulfillment is ultimately about building your brand, or put another way, good will. Good will is hard to build and easy to burn, but the more of it you have, the better. RH seems to be burning good will at an almost unprecedented rate.
The simplest example of this is KD:M versus so many C'MoN campaigns. KD:M announces that they are going to deliver months late, and for the most part people say "oh, poo... but look at that stuff! Adam, let me throw more money at you!" This didn't come from nowhere, it came in the environment carefully nurtured by the way Adam has dealt with his backers since the campaign ended.
By contrast, Relic Knights announces "Hey guys, you know how we were going to be shipping in three weeks? Yeah, it's going to be 6 months and three weeks...". And the refund talk starts. Because in-between Soda Pop (makers of Relic Knights) and the backers sits C'MoN, a company with all the warmth and welcome of a fist in the rectum.
There is a simple lesson to all this, which everyone from doctors and lawyers to salesmen and little boys with snow-shovels knows: when people have a good connection with you, they take bad news better and want to help you out.
I have to say, that I am rather confused by how RH is handling Updates, since it is one, if not the most easiest things to do. Of course it depends on what kind of update you do but here we don't need fancy stuff. All the backers need are a few sentences, a few pictures and that's it. No videos, no podcast, no polls, no home stories, nothing else.
I think most people are okay with a delay of the miniatures but a delay on updates is something else. To me it is irritating when french work to the middle of the night and sometimes make their updates at that times. I don't really want them to work at weekends and at that daytimes, I don't care the girls come a month later but I do want to see a development. Something looks bad, well what's the matter? Just make a circle in photoshop or gimp or whatever programm at everything major and say this is something you're working at the moment or don't like and change later. And two weeks later you post both pictures side by side so we can see the differences.
Also, if something is ready why not posting it? Okay, we don't have 1 update we're waiting for, we have many small ones, like two times in a month - that is not bad but cool.
I didn't really get it, what was wrong with the first response on the Kurganova Gals. People critized it, they didn't like aspects which were already clear to be changed but here too you could have made the magic circles or arrows or.. just ignore the criticism on the parts which were about to change anyway. I saw many reactions in the past, regarding games, regardings miniatures, movies and this one was pretty decent, whith valid points.
For the future I hope RH evolves in that aspect of their work. I am certain the minis are going to be awesome but crowd funding is more than delivering a great product.
Don't get me wrong, I'd like an update as much as the next guy, and I definitely wish for a world where my feedback would count. I don't think I ever expected any possibility that my feedback WOULD count though, so I guess the 'of course we'll listen to you' response doesn't really seem that far afield to me. I don't know if I'm biased, or other people are, or if the answer is somewhere in between, but I'm just not getting the 'insulting' vibe off of anything they've posted so far.
I DO agree that it's folly to tell us we MIGHT get an update. I'm fine with them keeping their progress to themselves and letting me know when there's something definite to report.
Jimsolo wrote: I'm fine with them keeping their progress to themselves and letting me know when there's something definite to report.
But that's the problem we've seen so far, is that they're overpromising and under delivering (or not delivering, at all), so we can't tell any longer what is actual truth and what is hot air. Until we see actual updates that have some real meat on their bones, all we've paid for is concept art and and a rather weak post-Kickstarter experience.
I think we're all in agreement that we want the product to be good and want this to be a success for both RH and the backers, but some of us have been getting a bad taste in our mouths over the last few months, mostly due to RH's poor communication post project funding - which is easy to remedy by actually keeping people informed and involved.
Hi guys! After much polishing and nit-picking, everything is all ready for the final check tomorrow, together the rendering of the images. It will take a full day to render, so barring a machine breakdown, we hope to post the images late tomorrow. If not, the day after, but we'll keep you posted. As you can imagine, the last mile is always the longest... We can't wait to share them with you!
So... Thursday?
Seriously, this was posted 30 minutes ago, which is, what, 2:30 AM in France? 1:30?
Hi guys! After much polishing and nit-picking, everything is all ready for the final check tomorrow, together the rendering of the images. It will take a full day to render, so barring a machine breakdown, we hope to post the images late tomorrow. If not, the day after, but we'll keep you posted. As you can imagine, the last mile is always the longest... We can't wait to share them with you!
Jimsolo wrote: Don't get me wrong, I'd like an update as much as the next guy, and I definitely wish for a world where my feedback would count. I don't think I ever expected any possibility that my feedback WOULD count though, so I guess the 'of course we'll listen to you' response doesn't really seem that far afield to me. I don't know if I'm biased, or other people are, or if the answer is somewhere in between, but I'm just not getting the 'insulting' vibe off of anything they've posted so far.
I DO agree that it's folly to tell us we MIGHT get an update. I'm fine with them keeping their progress to themselves and letting me know when there's something definite to report.
Hey Jim, pretty much agree with everything you've said. Just a small thing though, don't know if you were refering to me there, because I used the word 'insult' a few posts back. Just to be clear, I was refering to the twitter comment a while ago, which was insulting. I wasn't refering to the delaying of the update and the constant "a few hours, tonight, maybe tomorrow" stuff or anything, which I just find odd. Not insulting. It's just all strange.
"I know, I know, no images yet. Well, most of you have all said we should do the TGG images first, so that's what we're doing. The DE images ARE READY. Have been for a while. But the TGG: we won't show images until we are happy with them. After a 40 hours week-end, things were not perfect enough for us to show them yesterday. Could be tonight, could be tomorrow. But believe us when i say that we are just as eager as you are "
They're spankers. Talented spankers, but spankers nonetheless. They're trolling their backers, and having a roaring good time doing it, because we are unwashed, untalented peons and don't know how good we've got it.
et cetera.
I should point out that I'm not angry, because while I didn't expect this level of dickishness, even from their behaviour during the KS, I didn't expect much from them. That being said, I'm probably much less likely to throw money at them again in the future (or I'll likely throw fewer dollars when I do). I quite liked them when they were just a small boutique place in France that released (late) a few new models every few months, because despite being consistently late, they didn't seem like a bunch of arrogant dickholes or troll their customers.
It has been 100% UP TO THEM TO ANOUNCE PICTURES AND ANY OTHER INFORMATION. No one forced them to do so. But it is so incredible unbelievable that they manage to screw that in the end.
IF YOU DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO SHOW, DON'T PROMISE IT!
Out of interest, when was the "big update with pictures" originally promised? Anyone remember the date? It's got to have been over a month ago now, surely?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Raging Shiroz wrote:
We worked the entire week-end, 40 hours straight, and it's still not done. It's not done because in a creative process, there are always times when something just doesn't work, and we'll work on it until it does.
....
And I need to keep my team's spirits up, and sometimes, that means deleting a comment that I know will drive them up the wall. Because otherwise, how am I going to keep getting them to work week-ends and late late nights?
That just shows me that they have piss-poor management - both in terms of time and project. If it's actually true, it's a good way to burn people out, fast.
And yes, I've run my own business, I've also worked as an employee in a variety of positions, both in the public and private sectors, and I've worked in the creative arts to hard deadlines (much harder than KS fulfilment deadlines). These days I work to constant deadlines - nothing but deadlines in many ways. The EA Spouse model is a poor one in all of those fields and inevitably grinds through employees and leads to burnout. As an owner or partner, it's a little easier as you are much more personally invested, but it's still far from healthy or the best way to consistently bring your best work forward.
Wow... you guys were 100% (80%?) right, they are nothing but trolls...
Why the heck to they, again, say they MIGHT be ready and MIGHT release renders MAYBE tomorrow? Why not just waiting for.. you know, when the stuff is actually ready?!
They're spankers. Talented spankers, but spankers nonetheless. They're trolling their backers, and having a roaring good time doing it, because we are unwashed, untalented peons and don't know how good we've got it.
et cetera.
Out of interest, when was the "big update with pictures" originally promised? Anyone remember the date? It's got to have been over a month ago now, surely?
That first bit was quite funny. As to the second bit -This was posted in the Sep 11 update #75;
"We know that what you are all waiting for images of the sculpts. We promise you that there will be PLENTY of them in the next update. As a matter of fact, as I am typing this, we are preparing most of them for their final output, so this means that you will see them very, very, soon. As explained above, most of the ones for Wave 1 will all be finished over the same few days, and will be featured in our upcoming Big Update."
and was posted with a render of Harry the Hippo and a weapon platform.
Prior to that, this was posted in the July 29 Update;
"And finally, we know that, as Tommy Blaze put it in the Comments thread, you would have loved to see some eye candy in this Update but alas, as much as we've been working on many sculptures al at once, none is ready for its close-up yet. But we'll make up for it in the next Update. "
Automatically Appended Next Post: Update #76 on 24th September suggests that the "big update" is being split into one update for the troops, and one update for command groups and heroines.... I think;
"All the TROOPS boxes for the Iron Empire Heavy and Regular Troops as well as the Kurganova Shock Troops Heavy and Regular are done.
We are putting the final touches to the Jailbirds' Troops box.
And we are very close to finishing all the Command Group boxes as well.
As soon as the Jailbirds' Troops are finished, we will show you all 25 miniatures from the Troops Boxes, + a couple of extras, so that each army gets some love
Not far behind will come the 25 miniatures from the Command Groups.
And after that, we will be finalising all the Heroines planned for the first wave.
However, because we're sure you are as impatient as we are, we are going to post the images of the 25 Troops sculpts as soon as they're all done, rather than wait for the Command Groups and the Heroines and do one Big Update!"
Just eat the popcorn, laugh along with the rest of the audience at the clown show and throw some popcorn at the screen occasionally. That's the only real sane attitude to have on this one, I reckon.
The program was pretty clear about the way the plot to this one would play out about halfway through the Kickstarter, after all.
Not worth getting overly angry at or defensive of the show at this point. Everything is moving according to how we knew it would. Wave 1 shipping in September? Hah! Yep, we're right on schedule if you read the bones during the KS...
Azazelx wrote: Just eat the popcorn, laugh along with the rest of the audience at the clown show and throw some popcorn at the screen occasionally.... if you read the bones during the KS...
I see what you did there. Nice rug... or blanket... or whatever.
Wait. So, he's the "Skippy" I met at college? You said you were going to call me, Skippy. I waited for you to call me!
Anyway back on topic, but does anyone know if they've even found a manufacturer for their plastic kits yet? Isn't that the part of KS fulfillment that really eats up the months?
Adam W wrote:Has anyone who pledged for the webinar heard anything about when they plan on having them?
Loud'n Raging wrote:@adam w: We're finishing collecting all the names for the seminars, as the people who pledged on the Connoisseur Add-on are also eligible to them, and I need to find them one by one. I've made a preliminary list last night (on which you are, of course), which is probably 95% complete, now that the responses to both the Kickstarter and Paypal surveys are coming in.
You and the other participants will (probably this week) be receiving another email to give you all an opportunity to share what you'd like to see covered, so that we make sure to include content the participants are interested in in the 5 hours we'll be spending together.
You know, I hadn't really thought about it, but is it possible the secrecy regarding process is on account of the seminars they sold on their design and sculpting process?
Adam W wrote:Has anyone who pledged for the webinar heard anything about when they plan on having them?
Loud'n Raging wrote:@adam w: We're finishing collecting all the names for the seminars, as the people who pledged on the Connoisseur Add-on are also eligible to them, and I need to find them one by one. I've made a preliminary list last night (on which you are, of course), which is probably 95% complete, now that the responses to both the Kickstarter and Paypal surveys are coming in.
You and the other participants will (probably this week) be receiving another email to give you all an opportunity to share what you'd like to see covered, so that we make sure to include content the participants are interested in in the 5 hours we'll be spending together.
You know, I hadn't really thought about it, but is it possible the secrecy regarding process is on account of the seminars they sold on their design and sculpting process?
cincydooley wrote: Longest weekend ever. I really need to try out one of these French weekends that last 5 days sometime.
Due to budget cuts at work, I`m experiencing one right now, quite relaxing. Though they`ve had trouble getting anything more than 80% done with the reduced hours. Now, if you`ll excuse me I have to go look at pictures on the internet.
Hi Tristan: OK, late Update: The renders for the TTG troopers have been making the machines and the program bug and freeze and relaunch all day. A LaCie Rugged KEY 16 Go has already been a casualty (Neither PC or MAC is even detecting it...good thing we back-up in triplicate...). We've corrected all the settings, and removed the offending materials, and problems have now been sorted one by one. But we should have been done by now! Grrrrrrrrr! Proceeding along well, but at now 3:25 AM, I'm afraid we'll call it a night and finish the renders tomorrow. Double Grrrrrrrrr!
Well.. theyposted this... now I cannot not like them!
They're something almost ludicrously meta about a company so completely oblivious to the reality of their PR situation taking time out from their work schedule to post a gif from a surreal comedy sketch about vacant denial of reality
Hi Tristan: OK, late Update: The renders for the TTG troopers have been making the machines and the program bug and freeze and relaunch all day. A LaCie Rugged KEY 16 Go has already been a casualty (Neither PC or MAC is even detecting it...good thing we back-up in triplicate...). We've corrected all the settings, and removed the offending materials, and problems have now been sorted one by one. But we should have been done by now! Grrrrrrrrr! Proceeding along well, but at now 3:25 AM, I'm afraid we'll call it a night and finish the renders tomorrow. Double Grrrrrrrrr!
I guess the rending is 80% done!
Yeah, that's pretty much what I take from the update. That and that they seem to either be using old / dodgy machines or having the USB drive as the target for the render file output...
I'm so surprised that their rendering ran into problems, delaying everything yet again.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If they're going to be posting animated GIFs from Monty Python's Holy Grail, it really should be this one as it really captures their attitude. (and credit to whoever posted the .jpg earlier)
Our excuse generator has been running non-stop for the past few weeks, and it's finally given up the ghost. We're having a new one shipped by courier straight from the manufacturer, but it may be a few days before we've got it up and running. Keep watching for updates on our lack of updates on why we aren't updating.
I was hesitant to back this Kickstarter because of RH's reputation for being slow in meeting deadlines, but after reading the last few pages of this thread I really feel awful for all of the backers being strung along by these "updates".
I have been in the market for RH's not-Daemonettes for a few months now, but with the way they are behaving I think I'd rather not support a company that treats its customers so poorly.
To all the backers, I hope you can maintain a sense of humor about this Kickstarter because it seems like it will be a long and arduous process getting RH to make good on their commitment to the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy.
I believe that they'll come through eventually. It just won't be anywhere near the timeline promised. With this in mind, I guess "Wave 1 in September" and now being almost mid-October without having even seen any renders is just about right on schedule. Low expectations on everything but the end models and lots of jokes are the key to watching this one.
Azazelx wrote: I believe that they'll come through eventually. It just won't be anywhere near the timeline promised. With this in mind, I guess "Wave 1 in September" and now being almost mid-October without having even seen any renders is just about right on schedule. Low expectations on everything but the end models and lots of jokes are the key to watching this one.
cincydooley wrote: Wait wait. Wave 1 models were supposed to ship in September?
That's what they had on the KS front page, in not one, not two, but three different places. As it stands, I'm expecting Darklands KS2 figures in my hands before wave one of TGG.
cincydooley wrote: Wait wait. Wave 1 models were supposed to ship in September?
That's what they had on the KS front page, in not one, not two, but three different places. As it stands, I'm expecting Darklands KS2 figures in my hands before wave one of TGG.
Sweet Christ. I didn't even realize that. If they haven't even finished any renders, I can't imagine that wave 1 is going to even sniff 2013........
Eh, I'm not all that fussed over this any more. I had a new treat that showed up this morning to tide me over until Sunday when RH posts their next excuse for a delay with the update.
I think maintaining a healthy zen mindset is the key with most kickstarters. I do want to be clear that I am on no one's side even if I do play the go between now and then. I want my plastic crack just as much as the rest of you, and I also get frustrated by delays and how do you say... equine fecal material, from companies I've backed. I think a fair amount of the drama for RH is exaggerated or manufactured at the very least. There's some legit grievances here, but the general level of outrage in this thread in particular is way out of proportion.
I guess 80% of the drama is the result of RH incompetence.
Yeah, I had to do it once more.
The guy from the Winter War kickstarter is just the absolute opposite and backing his project has been an absolute dream. Quick, almost immediate replies, super detailed updates, a friendly atmosphere and he even managed to work in some comments and criticism.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: I think maintaining a healthy zen mindset is the key with most kickstarters. I do want to be clear that I am on no one's side even if I do play the go between now and then. I want my plastic crack just as much as the rest of you, and I also get frustrated by delays and how do you say... equine fecal material, from companies I've backed. I think a fair amount of the drama for RH is exaggerated or manufactured at the very least. There's some legit grievances here, but the general level of outrage in this thread in particular is way out of proportion.
That's my .50 for whatever it's worth.
I think part of it is misery loves company, so we find solace in venting our frustrations on the forums. But the problem of the matter is that this could all be alleviated if RH just stopped trying and instead did all the things they've been talking about. We don't want excuses, we want updates. If the updates aren't ready yet, just tell us:
"We aren't at a state to deliver an update today."
Or, tell us instead what you've been doing.
"Hey guys, this week we finalized two miniatures, and made good progress on a few more."
The problem is, we don't know if any of this is true, because we've only heard that they've been doing stuff, and we haven't seen it yet. For all we know, they could all have been taking a 2 month vacation. I doubt that's true, but speculations arise when no evidence is available to debunk wild theories.
I think, for any future KS project creators , the take away from this particular post-project fiasco is this: Deliver updates when you are 95% certain you are capable of doing so - sure, there may always be a last minute hang up, but it should be the exception, not the norm. Don't say you will have an update soon, next week, or in a few hours just to appease backers - instead, update when you know you are capable of doing so, and make sure the update is actually valid and pertinent to the content you are creating. It also helps if you are civil and straight forward with your backers. Don't lead them on. Keep them informed with your progress, and don't give them excuses.
All of this could have been done correctly by Raging Heroes at any point throughout the post-project. It's completely their own doing. We're all just sitting here waiting for a scrap of relevant project information from them, but we can't even get that...
One of those tumblr images just reminds me how laborious old French is to read. To all my compatriots who want nothing to do with English or for languages to evolve, I say nay!
If I were alone and had nowhere to vent the pressure my friend is putting on me for them to produce minis, I'd be mad for real. Thanks to you guys I'm just annoyed but it's tolerable. Guess who's not pledging on anything else with me though?
Mathieu Raymond wrote: One of those tumblr images just reminds me how laborious old French is to read. To all my compatriots who want nothing to do with English or for languages to evolve, I say nay!
If I were alone and had nowhere to vent the pressure my friend is putting on me for them to produce minis, I'd be mad for real. Thanks to you guys I'm just annoyed but it's tolerable. Guess who's not pledging on anything else with me though?
Yeah it will be really difficult for me to pledge anything on their future Kickstarters. Granted, RH has a chance to redeem themselves, so jury is still out. As of now, though, well....the experience hasn't been the best it could have been.
Loud'n Raging wrote:
@Tristan: Oh oui! 3AM and almost done rendering. The Update is all written up and already entered in the system. It's only awaiting the final images and then I can click 'Post'. We're soldiering on though the night until it's done!!!
its been five hours since they said that they are simply waiting for one final image....
yeah.. this does not really come as a surprise, does it?
Loud'n Raging about 3 hours ago
5:31 AM - just about all the details have been sorted out, but there's at least another hour or two of work, and then, we'd post the Update but we wouldn't be available to answer questions, which I think is a bad idea. So, sending everyone home from some Zzzz's. More in a few hours...
We're still on pace for RH being more late than on time with delivering their updates when promised. My current guess is this coming Friday (11th) we'll see an update.
Will I be right? Tune in Monday October 21st at 3:45 am (you're local time) when the Big Update is delayed to November 3rd!!!
In all seriousness, I kind of expected it'd be end of week. Hopefully it actually happens so we can get on with some constructive discussion and debate in this thread...wouldn't that be a welcome sight?
KalashnikovMarine wrote: As long as they sink that torpedo and get us all our heroi... err plastic crack (metal/resin in this case) does it matter?
Yes, it does. Sorry, maybe I'm just "manufacturing outrage", but to my mind there is a minimum standard of behaviour people should expect from the producers of a product, and if they don't meet it they DO deserve to be continually reminded that they are failing. If you want to think of Kickstarter as just chucking money into the aether in the hope you'll maybe probably get something back at some point in the future, fine, I still see it as a transaction, indeed I see it as a transaction in which the customer is due MORE from the consumer-producer relationship than in a typical capitalistic transaction, because without our up-front custom these feckless eejits wouldn't have the cash to sit around updating their Tumblr and insulting the intelligence of anyone who asks questions they dislike.
Because remember that is what is at issue here, not the delays themselves, those are just irritating; it's the excuses that wouldn't fool a trained monkey, it's the obvious slacking off surfing the 'net after claiming that they're working 20 hour days, it's the fact they refuse to engage with their backers on anything like the level that has become the norm, it's the way they have branded anyone who objects to any tiny part of their operations as some petulant Twitter-weaned child simply incapable of appreciating their obvious greatness. These guys are an amalgam of every negative stereotype about stroppy French artiste's, and they have to learn that regardless of how nice your models end up looking(and considering the first renders of the troops that caused their full retreat from interacting with us, I'm not as confident of that as some of you lot are), you cannot run a business that way and expect people to buy from you.
RoninXiC wrote: its been five hours since they said that they are simply waiting for one final image....
yeah.. this does not really come as a surprise, does it?
Loud'n Raging about 3 hours ago
5:31 AM - just about all the details have been sorted out, but there's at least another hour or two of work, and then, we'd post the Update but we wouldn't be available to answer questions, which I think is a bad idea. So, sending everyone home from some Zzzz's. More in a few hours...
Somebody give the record a nudge. It seems to be stuck, playing the same section over and over again.
I am sooo excited what their next excuse is going to be like. Will Photobucket not work? Did they, after everything has been rendered, found a minor mistake which leads to them redoing an rerendering 80% of their 100% finished models?
I think we're in for another 80% excuse for the delay next time they post. Though it'll be more likely that it's 80% of the images are uploaded, but it's taking ages so they're going to delay again.
Each excuse gets us 80% closer to the update actually being posted. Which doesn't seem bad, until you remember that if you're only going forwards 80% of the way each time you're never going to get there.
Loud'n Raging about 3 hours ago
5:31 AM - just about all the details have been sorted out, but there's at least another hour or two of work, and then, we'd post the Update but we wouldn't be available to answer questions, which I think is a bad idea. So, sending everyone home from some Zzzz's. More in a few hours...
Dear Raging Heroes,
What the feth is wrong with you?
Why, despite being two months behind schedule, are you still taking every single goddamn excuse you can get to not show us anything? Not once have you said, "Hey, we've outdone ourselves with the Jailbirds. We should show people." Do you really think it is so catastrophically bad to give people time reply to your update before you respond?
Waiting for you to stop giving France a bad name,
Alex
Hulksmash wrote: Oh RH. If it weren't for your ineptitude some of my work days would go slower. Thank you.
I know, right?
I got in this morning and this is the first thread I checked after I responded to some emails. It literally makes my morning smoothie time hilarious.
Or dare I say....
Delicious.
And holy feth. I went to find that Lips gif from their tumblr, and the amount of tumblr posts they've made since the last KS update is staggering! I didn't think it was that many! I mean, we're talking tons of full pages.
I feel like we need a "# of tumblr posts since last update" counter like they have for work places and days since the last accident...
Their last post on the Facebook page mentions that everything is ready to go, but they,re going to bed on the, get this, off chance they might actually want to answer questions.
Now here's a question, what happens when we're 80% of the way through suitable 80% comments? Do we need to find another delicious number or do we spend a few weeks pondering it things and then decide that we're not happy and start again?
Guys.. should we close this thread when the update eventually comes out and start a new one?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asharah Raging
vor 34 Minuten
QOTD:
Benoit: "J'essayais de mettre un peu d'aberrations chromatiques, et il ne se passe rien; puis je me rends compte que j'ai un calque de saturation en mode Redéfinir!"
Tout le monde rigole, sauf JR: "Je comprends rien aux blagues Photoshop".
-----
Benoit: "I'm trying to add some chromatic aberrations, and nothing's working, until I realized that I had saturation layer set to Colorize". Everybody smiled, except JR: "I'm not getting this Photoshop humour..."
NB: To see images in larger size, right-click and choose 'open image in new tab'.
Ahhhhhh... This is the update we've all been waiting for! Below, you'll find images of the Troop boxes for each of the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy army. This means: the Jailbird Troopers, the Kurganova Regular and the Kurganova Heavy Troopers, as well as the Iron Empire Regular and the Iron Empire Heavy Troopers.
The TGG images shown in this update are 3D renders that we have attempted to make as close to possible as to what the actual minis will be. We included some close-ups as well because we just couldn't resist.
There are 25 different sculpts, all of them fully multi-parts. This means that you'll of course get the dynamic poses we've designed for each of them. But in addition, thanks to our ball-joint assembly system, you'll be able to create an amazing number of variations for your Troops. Each miniature is made of one pair of legs, one torso, one head, and 2 separate arms (with the right arm holding the main weapon).
In each box, you'll find everything to make 5 miniatures equipped with a beam rifle. On top of that, you'll get 3 extra heads and 4 alternative weapons: one flamer, one grenade launcher, one shred sword, and one beam pistol. You'll also get many little accessories to attach to the Troopers' belts or pants: grenades, knives, etc.
This first set of 25 Troopers was extremely important for us as it allowed us to test many options on design, workflow, manufacturing, and so on... It has been a very instructive experience for the whole team that's allowing us to improve the entire operation. Many of you have encouraged us not to rush the process to insure the best possible quality for the sculpts. Well, it paid off. Case in point: every time we'd finish a new unit, we'd go back to the other ones that we thought were done and say: “Hmmmm, that won't do, we need to fix this and that...” And so, we did. This back-and-forth took some extra time, but I think you'll agree the results are there.
Mascots We also promised you a few extras for this Update. Meet the 3 mascots: the Jailbirds' Harry the Hippo (who you've seen before), Charlie the Kurganovas' war bulldog, and Jinx, the Iron Empire's Aegyptian Cat. The 28 mm version of the mascots are part of the Freebies, but you can also get more of them as add-ons.
And you may recall that each mascot is also available in its larger version as an Add-on: the larger Harry will be about 40mm tall (1.6 inches), the larger Charlie will be about 45mm tall (1.8 inches), and the larger Jinx will be about 60mm tall (2.4 inches).
New Heroines We'd also like to show you 3 new Heroine sculpts, one for each army: Katrina Zerga, Tank Stopper for the KST; Yoko the Psycho, Flamer for the Jailbirds; and Doctor von X, Medic for the Iron Empire.
Making Doctor von X (a.k.a. Auntie Suzanne) We wanted to share with you the story of the making of Doctor von X, as a good example of the fluidity of our design process. Although we were always certain to have a strong character with Dr von X, the first concept we made was not exactly meeting our expectations. But with the Kickstarter rush, there was little time to refine it. So, what happened next is that Art Director Benoit went back to his original sketches and did a 3D mock-up of the character, focussing more particularly on how her head would look. We wanted something like Grace Kelly turned into your favourite zombi-esque auntie nutcase.
Once the head was finalised, we sent back the 3D render to Alex, our concept artist. He drew over the mock-up 3D sculpt and added all the missing details. Then, one of our sculptors brought back the sketched details into the 3D sculpts. Please note that the 'teapot mechanism' shown here will be optional, for you to use or not depending on the time of the day you play her
3D Sculpting and Art Direction Webinar The story of Doctor von X brings us to the webinar. Indeed, we intend to use this character as a case study regarding character development.
We're finishing collecting all the names for the webinar, as the people who pledged on the Connoisseur Add-on are also eligible, and we need to find them one by one. We've made a preliminary list this week, which is by now virtually completed, now that most responses to both the Kickstarter and Paypal surveys have come in. Participants will soon be receiving another email to give them an opportunity to share what they'd like to see covered, so that we can make sure to include content they are interested in the 5 hours we'll be spending together.
Jet Girls concepts The last days of the Kickstarter were so frantic that we never had the time to come up with decent concepts for the Jet Girl unit that you asked us for. So here they are today. (By the way, we should mention that we plan to infuse them with more energy when we sculpt them.)
But when we set our Concept Artist Alex loose to work on the Jet Girls, he could not resist creating something else that would be more special... And this is how the Red Baroness came to life. And when he showed her to us, we just couldn't resist. This character won't be available as a Kickstarter model but, as you can imagine, the TGG universe and its various factions will continue to grow. If Drusilla is the SkyCaptain of the Jet Girls, the Red Baroness is a living legend of the Iron Empire military. You'll learn more about her story later on.
Dark Elves First off, and most importantly, we want to be very clear on this: For now, our priority and focus is on the delivery of the TGG Kickstarter.
But in the last few days, we've been absolutely bombarded by emails asking us about our Dark Elves plans. And truth be said, these Dark Elves concepts were actually done way before the TGG Kickstarter even began.
And yet, we had not planned on releasing the following images as early as this. The plan was to release the First Wave of TGG minis before showing them.
But at the same time, given the fact that the Dark Elves topic is currently burning hot, it seemed a shame to just plain sit on them...
So here is a small sample of ten of the designs we've got tucked away. This DE army will fit into our own Fantasy game setting.
Sci-Fi versions of the Dark Elves are also done. They could conceivably be part of a DE Kickstarter.
And to make things more interesting, we'd likely add to this project the Sisters of Eternal Mercy, for which both Sci-Fi and Fantasy versions are being considered.
However, no, we absolutely don't have a date for this Kickstarter project at this point in time, although we are curious to see if you're interested in that and if these concepts are meeting your expectations, if you want a Kickstarter on this or just that we release models one after the other, whenever we can, and, well anything that's on your mind, really.
But again, our priority and focus is on the delivery of the TGG Kickstarter.
The Raging Team We want to take this opportunity to publicly acknowledge and thank our talented and extremely committed team. They have been tirelessly working countless long hours, most cancelled their vacations, some even put aside family obligations to make this happen, and all this with a fantastic upbeat attitude. We are all under a lot of pressure to deliver the best work we possibly can for the TGG, so if you feel like dropping the team a few words of encouragement, I know it will be most welcome!
Well, that's it for today. And in the next Update, we plan to present new Heroine sculpts...
NB: To see images in larger size, right-click and choose 'open image in new tab'.
Ahhhhhh... This is the update we've all been waiting for! Below, you'll find images of the Troop boxes for each of the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy army. This means: the Jailbird Troopers, the Kurganova Regular and the Kurganova Heavy Troopers, as well as the Iron Empire Regular and the Iron Empire Heavy Troopers.
The TGG images shown in this update are 3D renders that we have attempted to make as close to possible as to what the actual minis will be. We included some close-ups as well because we just couldn't resist.
There are 25 different sculpts, all of them fully multi-parts. This means that you'll of course get the dynamic poses we've designed for each of them. But in addition, thanks to our ball-joint assembly system, you'll be able to create an amazing number of variations for your Troops. Each miniature is made of one pair of legs, one torso, one head, and 2 separate arms (with the right arm holding the main weapon).
In each box, you'll find everything to make 5 miniatures equipped with a beam rifle. On top of that, you'll get 3 extra heads and 4 alternative weapons: one flamer, one grenade launcher, one shred sword, and one beam pistol. You'll also get many little accessories to attach to the Troopers' belts or pants: grenades, knives, etc.
This first set of 25 Troopers was extremely important for us as it allowed us to test many options on design, workflow, manufacturing, and so on... It has been a very instructive experience for the whole team that's allowing us to improve the entire operation. Many of you have encouraged us not to rush the process to insure the best possible quality for the sculpts. Well, it paid off. Case in point: every time we'd finish a new unit, we'd go back to the other ones that we thought were done and say: “Hmmmm, that won't do, we need to fix this and that...” And so, we did. This back-and-forth took some extra time, but I think you'll agree the results are there.
Mascots
We also promised you a few extras for this Update. Meet the 3 mascots: the Jailbirds' Harry the Hippo (who you've seen before), Charlie the Kurganovas' war bulldog, and Jinx, the Iron Empire's Aegyptian Cat. The 28 mm version of the mascots are part of the Freebies, but you can also get more of them as add-ons.
And you may recall that each mascot is also available in its larger version as an Add-on: the larger Harry will be about 40mm tall (1.6 inches), the larger Charlie will be about 45mm tall (1.8 inches), and the larger Jinx will be about 60mm tall (2.4 inches).
New Heroines
We'd also like to show you 3 new Heroine sculpts, one for each army: Katrina Zerga, Tank Stopper for the KST; Yoko the Psycho, Flamer for the Jailbirds; and Doctor von X, Medic for the Iron Empire.
Making Doctor von X (a.k.a. Auntie Suzanne)
We wanted to share with you the story of the making of Doctor von X, as a good example of the fluidity of our design process. Although we were always certain to have a strong character with Dr von X, the first concept we made was not exactly meeting our expectations. But with the Kickstarter rush, there was little time to refine it. So, what happened next is that Art Director Benoit went back to his original sketches and did a 3D mock-up of the character, focussing more particularly on how her head would look. We wanted something like Grace Kelly turned into your favourite zombi-esque auntie nutcase.
Once the head was finalised, we sent back the 3D render to Alex, our concept artist. He drew over the mock-up 3D sculpt and added all the missing details. Then, one of our sculptors brought back the sketched details into the 3D sculpts. Please note that the 'teapot mechanism' shown here will be optional, for you to use or not depending on the time of the day you play her
3D Sculpting and Art Direction Webinar
The story of Doctor von X brings us to the webinar. Indeed, we intend to use this character as a case study regarding character development.
We're finishing collecting all the names for the webinar, as the people who pledged on the Connoisseur Add-on are also eligible, and we need to find them one by one. We've made a preliminary list this week, which is by now virtually completed, now that most responses to both the Kickstarter and Paypal surveys have come in. Participants will soon be receiving another email to give them an opportunity to share what they'd like to see covered, so that we can make sure to include content they are interested in the 5 hours we'll be spending together.
Jet Girls concepts
The last days of the Kickstarter were so frantic that we never had the time to come up with decent concepts for the Jet Girl unit that you asked us for. So here they are today. (By the way, we should mention that we plan to infuse them with more energy when we sculpt them.)
But when we set our Concept Artist Alex loose to work on the Jet Girls, he could not resist creating something else that would be more special... And this is how the Red Baroness came to life. And when he showed her to us, we just couldn't resist. This character won't be available as a Kickstarter model but, as you can imagine, the TGG universe and its various factions will continue to grow. If Drusilla is the SkyCaptain of the Jet Girls, the Red Baroness is a living legend of the Iron Empire military. You'll learn more about her story later on.
Dark Elves
First off, and most importantly, we want to be very clear on this: For now, our priority and focus is on the delivery of the TGG Kickstarter.
But in the last few days, we've been absolutely bombarded by emails asking us about our Dark Elves plans. And truth be said, these Dark Elves concepts were actually done way before the TGG Kickstarter even began.
And yet, we had not planned on releasing the following images as early as this. The plan was to release the First Wave of TGG minis before showing them.
But at the same time, given the fact that the Dark Elves topic is currently burning hot, it seemed a shame to just plain sit on them...
So here is a small sample of ten of the designs we've got tucked away. This DE army will fit into our own Fantasy game setting.
Sci-Fi versions of the Dark Elves are also done. They could conceivably be part of a DE Kickstarter.
And to make things more interesting, we'd likely add to this project the Sisters of Eternal Mercy, for which both Sci-Fi and Fantasy versions are being considered.
However, no, we absolutely don't have a date for this Kickstarter project at this point in time, although we are curious to see if you're interested in that and if these concepts are meeting your expectations, if you want a Kickstarter on this or just that we release models one after the other, whenever we can, and, well anything that's on your mind, really.
But again, our priority and focus is on the delivery of the TGG Kickstarter.
The Raging Team
We want to take this opportunity to publicly acknowledge and thank our talented and extremely committed team. They have been tirelessly working countless long hours, most cancelled their vacations, some even put aside family obligations to make this happen, and all this with a fantastic upbeat attitude. We are all under a lot of pressure to deliver the best work we possibly can for the TGG, so if you feel like dropping the team a few words of encouragement, I know it will be most welcome!
Well, that's it for today. And in the next Update, we plan to present new Heroine sculpts...
Really glad I shelved my Guard armies while waiting for more info on these. Made the right choice, will be using my pledge to get a load of the troopers to make sure all of my units are nigh on 50-50 gender split wise.
At least I still have Orks and Druchii to paint while the Guard sit in the bedroom cabinets.
Those renders look good, but those poses are going to suck in restic. I'm imagining entire squads either snapping off their bases or snapping at the ankles.
I updated the whole section that shows more than one figure, so the troops and the accesoirs + heads. Apparently Kickstarter doesn't like big crispy images or something like that but they uploaded the right pictures on photobucket. I decided to change them to the photobuckets so we can see the details here. For everyone interested in the Album: http://s918.photobucket.com/user/Raging-Heroes/library/TGG
If they had just kept us up to date, there wouldn't have been 2 months of bad PR and grumbling from backers.
If they had just kept us up to date, there wouldn't have been 2 months of bad PR and grumbling from backers.
If they had just kept us up to date, there wouldn't have been 2 months of bad PR and grumbling from backers.
If they had just kept us up to date, there wouldn't have been 2 months of bad PR and grumbling from backers.
Need I repeat myself? /facepalm
Initial impression is a big sigh of relief, and I'm quite pleased with the extra attention everything has received. I'll have some more comments later. For now, I'm just happy they updated.
Seems like if they'd had more renders ready going into the Kickstarter, and kept backers informed on the small changes going on week to week post-project funding, there wouldn't have been as much grumbling, speculation, excuses, criticisms, etc. Likewise, this whole ride would have been smoother and more enjoyable for everyone involved...maybe a lesson to learn moving forward? That said, I'm feeling more confident that the next wave of minis won't disappoint.
Buzzsaw wrote: Before dinner I've found my first issue: wow do I dislike what they did with Doctor Von X's gogo boots.
Considering the heel, those legs seem pretty short in proportion to her top half.
In general I'm pretty happy with the look of things.
My best guess is it's a lack of shadow between the front boot and rear boot, causing a false impression of where the heels are. The foreground boot is facing straight on so we only see the top of the boot, and we can see the heel and stiletto of the rear boot behind it without any shadows between the two, leaving us with an optical illusion that the boots are really long and awkward looking, when in fact they aren't.
Sadly, as I digest these renders along with my chicken, I find myself pondering the words of Spock... "After a time, you may find that having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
Buzzsaw wrote: Before dinner I've found my first issue: wow do I dislike what they did with Doctor Von X's gogo boots.
Considering the heel, those legs seem pretty short in proportion to her top half.
In general I'm pretty happy with the look of things.
My best guess is it's a lack of shadow between the front boot and rear boot, causing a false impression of where the heels are. The foreground boot is facing straight on so we only see the top of the boot, and we can see the heel and stiletto of the rear boot behind it without any shadows between the two, leaving us with an optical illusion that the boots are really long and awkward looking, when in fact they aren't.
Shadow emphasis mine.
~iPaint
Oh, no I realized that, I just don't like the high heels. It is bad posing on top of that, true.
But in all seriousness they look pretty good. Scale is going to be interesting. I'm not a huge fan on massively dynamic leg poses as it'll look a little silly over 50-100 models. But they seem pretty good.
Still glad I didn't back but glad that it seems to be working out for those that did.
But in all seriousness they look pretty good. Scale is going to be interesting. I'm not a huge fan on massively dynamic leg poses as it'll look a little silly over 50-100 models. But they seem pretty good.
Still glad I didn't back but glad that it seems to be working out for those that did.
Judging by my previous comparisons, it looks like the troops will be scaled to match the closer to the size of the heroines than what was originally shown/discussed by Raging Heroes:
One Shot Blondie, scaled with Kurganova trooper. (Assumes bases are 25mm, may have a slight angle adjustment needed based on the 3D print shot)
and scaled with the lineup I had mocked up early in the Kickstarter:
The far right model was the original Raging Heroes concept previewed in one of the early updates, my adjusted model is to her left, and the final is in the middle. The proportions are definitely better on this round of renders.
~iPaint
NB: these were real fast Photoshops, so some scaling may still be a bit off with the newer troopers.
Verdict: They look great, but that was not unexpected. The question really is how well will they come out in Restic? Considering the well known issues with the shrinking and the mould lines and such.
If they're using ball joints, I'd much rather see them either in proper resin or metal.
They are planning on having at least renders of everything before launching the pledge manager, right? I don't even remember what all I wanted at this point... I'm definitely not liking the padded 1940's american football helmet on the kurg regulars. The heavies and all the iron empire look great, though.
I hate to be the only *small* voice of dissent. I find the footwear to be overly large, like they have a full inch of steel on all of it. And the pose & gear for the KST make the hips look quite large compared to the waist, which looks minuscule.
That said, I wanted to go KST... not so sure anymore. the IE Heavies might have enough of an SoB vibe for me. I wonder how the helmet's look if I snip that stud...
So, maybe I've allowed my annoyance at their hijinks to color my evaluation and I'm not being fair, but... I'm seeing a lot of things that I hadn't noticed before that are just dumb.
A good representation of these problems is in the Iron Empire Heavy troopers (1,2);
The armor makes no sense.
--Regular IE troopers wear an articulated piece of armor over their abdomen between the breastplate and belt, "heavy" troopers are pretty clearly wearing only a cloth garment (notice the buttons).
--They are wearing codpieces. On the regular troopers this looks like a continuation of the abdominal armor, but since the heavy troopers don't have that there are simply a few random armor plates hanging off the belt on the crotch. This is so odd I... --The Shoulders. Space marine shoulders are the subject of much derision (appropriately) for being ludicrous and impractical. The shoulders on the Heavy troopers can barely see ludicrous and impractical in the rear view mirror: The degree to which they would restrict the wearer's freedom of movement is simply amazing. By amazing I mean comical.
Which leads to a common problem with... well, all the models I have looked at so far: none of them are actually in a firing position. That is, for all the "movement" and "dynamics", none of the models shown seem to be able to put their rifles to their shoulders. Probably because they can't. Because of the combination of boob plate and impractical shoulders, the closest any model comes to a proper firing stance is a few girls that are bracing the stock of their rifles... against their biceps.
Now, would that necessarily break their arms? Who knows. But it is clearly a silly way to fire a rifle, so silly that it makes one wonder if anyone at RH understands why rifles have a stock.
On the IE troopers, the coats "clip" the breastplates: instead of flowing around and over the breasts, on each trooper model the lapels of the coat at neatly tucked "behind" the breasts (despite there being no obvious explanation for why there would be an overhang there).
Why does the pistol look like they took a Mauser and a Luger and simply mashed them together? What is up with the face on the second from the left...?
Buzzsaw, I'm not sure I understand your complaints. Isn't this Blanchian melange of cheesecake and grimdark exactly what everyone was expecting from a company previously known for its famous "Fantasy Dark Breasts", "Holy Roman Empire Breasts" and "Commissar Sister Breasts" kits? I mean, at least 2/3rds of these models are wearing a full uniform, right?
I do think the sculpt quality and nonbreast proportions are looking phenomenal, even if the outfits, equipment and poses are a little bit silly.
Buzzsaw wrote: So, maybe I've allowed my annoyance at their hijinks to color my evaluation and I'm not being fair, but... I'm seeing a lot of things that I hadn't noticed before that are just dumb.
A good representation of these problems is in the Iron Empire Heavy troopers (1,2);
The armor makes no sense.
--Regular IE troopers wear an articulated piece of armor over their abdomen between the breastplate and belt, "heavy" troopers are pretty clearly wearing only a cloth garment (notice the buttons).
--They are wearing codpieces. On the regular troopers this looks like a continuation of the abdominal armor, but since the heavy troopers don't have that there are simply a few random armor plates hanging off the belt on the crotch. This is so odd I... --The Shoulders. Space marine shoulders are the subject of much derision (appropriately) for being ludicrous and impractical. The shoulders on the Heavy troopers can barely see ludicrous and impractical in the rear view mirror: The degree to which they would restrict the wearer's freedom of movement is simply amazing. By amazing I mean comical.
Which leads to a common problem with... well, all the models I have looked at so far: none of them are actually in a firing position. That is, for all the "movement" and "dynamics", none of the models shown seem to be able to put their rifles to their shoulders. Probably because they can't. Because of the combination of boob plate and impractical shoulders, the closest any model comes to a proper firing stance is a few girls that are bracing the stock of their rifles... against their biceps.
Now, would that necessarily break their arms? Who knows. But it is clearly a silly way to fire a rifle, so silly that it makes one wonder if anyone at RH understands why rifles have a stock.
On the IE troopers, the coats "clip" the breastplates: instead of flowing around and over the breasts, on each trooper model the lapels of the coat at neatly tucked "behind" the breasts (despite there being no obvious explanation for why there would be an overhang there).
Why does the pistol look like they took a Mauser and a Luger and simply mashed them together? What is up with the face on the second from the left...?
Yeah, the Iron Empire really didn't wow me as much as I wanted them to. The armor and uniform discrepancies are valid points which may be constructive feedback RH might want to hear. The alternate IE head does have a sort of blow-up doll look to it, like the mouth was an afterthought. These would be, I think, valid concerns, and RH may be able to fill us in on why those choices were made, and possibly make some changes.
I've since decided that the Kurganovas may be what I look at getting instead of the IE, along with a few of the Jailbird boxes. Katrina Zerga is everything I wanted her to be and more based on her concept art alone. I see her in a brick-red and olive green camo paint scheme, armor chipped, and ready to kick some tail. The KST grunts really evolved to fit the concept art much more closely than the first renders, too, which I think has tipped the scales in their favor when compared to the IE gals.
Regarding poses, I'm actually not disappointed to see so few firing poses. I think I spent too many hours painting GW Cadians for my IG, which all ended up looking mono-pose and rather boring after a while. It's still to be seen what sort of variety of poses we might be able to get based on the ball/socket multi part system they are shooting for, and we've only seen half of the poses for each group, so there may still be a few in the command boxes that would fit the bill. I have a feeling there may be a stronger case for form over function, though, judging on the miniatures' content, and I'm ok with that.
I do think they did a good job on the Jailbirds to hide where the joints would be - dog tags, scarves, and backpack straps all cleverly disguise where the bare skin would show the joins. Wonder how well it will translate to the casting process.
I'm away from my computer for the weekend, and going back to my size comparison images, it looks like the Kurganova I compared to One Shot earlier this evening may be too tall - the knees don't match up correctly. I was in a rush to get out the door, and will return to those images later this weekend.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Got to say I'm pretty happy with most of what I'm seeing. Needed those IE regular troopers to come out good and they have. Still going to be difficult to choose between them and the K's though.
Well, I'm still a little shocked that they've finally posted renders, after how things were dragging out.
As for the renders themselves. I'm pretty happy with the way they've turned out. Though the running legs for the JB troopers look like they'll be a pain to balance in place and then keep there during regular gaming. Not impossible, just a bit of a pain really.
Though, it all depends on what we get in the command boxes, as I'm currently still planning on getting a larger number of those for the extra weapons than troopers.
Azazelx wrote: The question really is how well will they come out in Restic? Considering the well known issues with the shrinking and the mould lines and such.
If they're using ball joints, I'd much rather see them either in proper resin or metal.
Proper resin is preferable. So far, McVey and Mantic have shown that detail is rather soft with restic. I can only hope someone is able to talk some sense into them and steer them to polystyrene or "proper resin" before it's too late.
Yonan wrote: Great looking minis as expected, here's hoping they make sure they get the casting right. Maybe borrow mantics new restic formula ; p
What are you seeing in Mantic's restic that I'm not?
So, am I the only one that's a bit worried that these guys sold us "heroines that look just like their concept art", but are now apparently saying "aha, but WHICH concept art?" and just showing us a new concept at the same time as the render? How many other heroines have got this treatment, or will get it?
It is a little concerning, though in all honesty I wasn't a big fan of the original concept art so the change itself doesn't bother me. Though more instances of it and it becomes more of a thing.
Maybe if they'd been keeping us updated with regular posts they could have talked about it and shown the updated concept art then, so it wasn't as much of a surprise.
Buzzsaw wrote: Which leads to a common problem with... well, all the models I have looked at so far: none of them are actually in a firing position. That is, for all the "movement" and "dynamics", none of the models shown seem to be able to put their rifles to their shoulders. Probably because they can't. Because of the combination of boob plate and impractical shoulders, the closest any model comes to a proper firing stance is a few girls that are bracing the stock of their rifles... against their biceps.
Now, would that necessarily break their arms? Who knows. But it is clearly a silly way to fire a rifle, so silly that it makes one wonder if anyone at RH understands why rifles have a stock.
I do know, and the answer is no. An M-16 has so little recoil that I've literally seen someone fire it with one hand extended like it was a pistol and hit at a range of perhaps a hundred meters on their second try. It's still not a good firing stance, but that doesn't mean it's going to break your arm.
Breotan wrote: Proper resin is preferable. So far, McVey and Mantic have shown that detail is rather soft with restic. I can only hope someone is able to talk some sense into them and steer them to polystyrene or "proper resin" before it's too late.
Polystyrene would be awesome. I'm in for a token $15 pledge, but proper plastic, at least for the basic infantry, would mean an immediate upgrade to the "sweet spot" pledge.
A good representation of these problems is in the Iron Empire Heavy troopers (1,2);
The armor makes no sense.
It's not Heavy TrooperS, it is SOME Heavy Troopers. There are some wearing the armor and some not. I think all should were it but it is not correct to say all of them make no sense.
--The Shoulders. Space marine shoulders are the subject of much derision (appropriately) for being ludicrous and impractical. The shoulders on the Heavy troopers can barely see ludicrous and impractical in the rear view mirror: The degree to which they would restrict the wearer's freedom of movement is simply amazing. By amazing I mean comical.
More than of Space Marines? Such shoulder pieces never made any sense anywhere. Btw. I looked up my existing figures and Forge World figures and honestly there is barely anyone having the gun near the shoulder. Most, if not all have the stock at the biceps. So this is less a problem of the TGGs but of miniatures in general.
On the IE troopers, the coats "clip" the breastplates: instead of flowing around and over the breasts, on each trooper model the lapels of the coat at neatly tucked "behind" the breasts (despite there being no obvious explanation for why there would be an overhang there).
Well, girls in movement with some metal before there breasts, I don't think it is unrealistic to think that a coat would move behind the brests, if the coat isn't buttoned, especially if it is a tighter, maybe even lighter coat. Nothing that needs to bechange from my perspective.
Why does the pistol look like they took a Mauser and a Luger and simply mashed them together?
Obviously it IS a Luger and a little bit of a Mauser, even though all there guns feature that ammo clip in such a way as presented here. I love this gun but I think they should've gone that far to make all the IE weapons match worldwar counterparts of the germans instead of having only that pistol.
I don't like that face either. It's a simple screaming face, I don't mind but it is a matter of taste. What's a matter of taste too is, personally I wished they would have gone with a more classic hairstyle for all the IE heads.
@Yodhrin
Nope, not worried. They advanced the concept art for the nurse, so we she can now join a mad hatter tea party but that part is optional. The figure matches both concept arts as far as I can see.
The new renderings are even better than expected. I hadn't planned to get many or rather any troops at all with my pledge but now i can see myself trying to get some Jailbird and KST troops.
Is the paypal option still available to up the pledge?
JWMarines wrote: They are planning on having at least renders of everything before launching the pledge manager, right? I don't even remember what all I wanted at this point... I'm definitely not liking the padded 1940's american football helmet on the kurg regulars. The heavies and all the iron empire look great, though.
Reminded me more of Soviet tank crew helmets then 40s football helmets
I'll probably be upping my pledge to get some troops as I'd originally planned.
I've been shocked that our feedback gets any response at all, honestly. It's been such a refreshing change of pace for me.
are now taking the tack that gathering feedback is pointless, because either you'll never get unanimous opinion, or because most of us are too thick to give useful feedback, or BECUSZ ARTZ, delete as applicable. So even if we do get an update, they're not going to accept anything other than praise in response.
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