Nope, he's ever so slowly releasing regiments. The Standard Bearer is probably going to be one of his last models based on some random comments he made on his forum. So I might see it before 2018
Re: "R Naysmith: Hell, they could take thirty seconds out of their day to post "sorry guys, we're working on finishing X and will get to the update asap" and that would satisfy just about everyone ":
---> Good point. so here goes: Sorry guys, we're working on finishing the first wave and will get to the update asap.
As you know, we hate to do quick'n dirty, whether it's a miniature, an image, or an update (we easily take 4+ hours to write an update). Most people appreciate the care we put in what we do, but we can understand the eagerness of those weaned on Twitter who are accustomed to more instantaneous conversations...
The absolute bloody cheek of these guys is breathtaking.
Re: "R Naysmith: Hell, they could take thirty seconds out of their day to post "sorry guys, we're working on finishing X and will get to the update asap" and that would satisfy just about everyone ":
---> Good point. so here goes: Sorry guys, we're working on finishing the first wave and will get to the update asap.
As you know, we hate to do quick'n dirty, whether it's a miniature, an image, or an update (we easily take 4+ hours to write an update). Most people appreciate the care we put in what we do, but we can understand the eagerness of those weaned on Twitter who are accustomed to more instantaneous conversations...
The absolute bloody cheek of these guys is breathtaking.
Wow... much better for them not to have replied than to have replied like that
I regret giving them any money. They sure as hell won't see more of mine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've just told my friend that split my pledge that if he wants multiple waves, he's on his own. I'm getting Wave 1 stuff and that's it, no matter how much that mech or the werewolves promise to be good.
Hah, I just ran the other half of the post where that other comment originated through Google Translate;
RE: "Magarch: @ Matthew: At the same time, we read about the hostility of criticism in the comments, it gives really do not want to answer it .. (...) Personally, it is not in I expect comments impactful news. it's always the same people who always come back to the same story. And that is not specific to the kickstart. "
---> Alas, this is mostly true ...
It doesn't seem to have occurred to them or their Righteous and Unquestioning Defenders that perhaps the reason people keep bringing up the same complaints is because they've singularly failed to address those complaints with anything other than snark.
Ultimately, the poor/arrogant communication shown will bite RH on the arse when they start their second KS. As they continue to fail to communicate with their backers, and reply with smartarse comments, the net.rage and negativity will increase. It's a cycle RH could break by improving their communication, but they appear not to be interested. They've got the money now, after all, so there's little reason to care.
I'm sure their comms will suddenly improve just before their next Kickstarter though, in the same way that CMON are suddenly very communicative while WoK is running.
As you know, we hate to do quick'n dirty, whether it's a miniature, an image, or an update (we easily take 4+ hours to write an update). Most people appreciate the care we put in what we do, but we can understand the eagerness of those weaned on Twitter who are accustomed to more instantaneous conversations...
As someone who backed the project for a not-insignificant figure, has expressed discontent in this thread previously about the negativity, and who has remained cautiously optimistic about the project in general, I'd like to say: that comment makes me want to choke someone.
Ah, now there's some lovely feedback right there that really cements the justification of getting in just a small pledge and nothing more. Yes they're under a lot of pressure and sure they want to do everything perfectly, but with posts like that after a long time of silence, well good going. /slowclap
Re: Second campaign..
Chances are, come the second campaign, everything will in all likeliness be forgiven and forgotten by a large part of the customers, meaning it's back to grid one for a lot of forgiving people and so, the whole kerfuffle starts all over again.
As you know, we hate to do quick'n dirty, whether it's a miniature, an image, or an update (we easily take 4+ hours to write an update). Most people appreciate the care we put in what we do, but we can understand the eagerness of those weaned on Twitter who are accustomed to more instantaneous conversations...
As someone who backed the project for a not-insignificant figure, has expressed discontent in this thread previously about the negativity, and who has remained cautiously optimistic about the project in general, I'd like to say: that comment makes me want to choke someone.
Pretty much my feelings exactly. And I'm sure we aren't the only ones.
Stuff will appear in good time (but much, much slower than promised)
Communications will be poor with plenty of 'attitude'
(this might just be due to their first language being French rather than being deliberate, I've worked with some really nice French folk and it does seem common to many of them even where there is no intent to cause offense)
BrookM wrote: Ah, now there's some lovely feedback right there that really cements the justification of getting in just a small pledge and nothing more. Yes they're under a lot of pressure and sure they want to do everything perfectly, but with posts like that after a long time of silence, well good going. /slowclap
Re: Second campaign..
Chances are, come the second campaign, everything will in all likeliness be forgiven and forgotten by a large part of the customers, meaning it's back to grid one for a lot of forgiving people and so, the whole kerfuffle starts all over again.
Amirite?
Yes, you probably are right...
That's the nature of this particular beast, unfortunately!
As you know, we hate to do quick'n dirty, whether it's a miniature, an image, or an update (we easily take 4+ hours to write an update). Most people appreciate the care we put in what we do, but we can understand the eagerness of those weaned on Twitter who are accustomed to more instantaneous conversations...
As someone who backed the project for a not-insignificant figure, has expressed discontent in this thread previously about the negativity, and who has remained cautiously optimistic about the project in general, I'd like to say: that comment makes me want to choke someone.
Same here. I am holding out for my toys. I have worked with RH before. I will not be doing so after I get my werewolves.
I think there's way too much negativity here. I got a colonel pledge from this, and honestly, I don't care if I don't see another update until they say they're shipping. I've got other RH figures and the quality of the sculpts is great.
I want the models. I don't care if they're great at social networking. And, I'm in no rush, so they'll get here when they do.
Yeah, I'm serious. Maybe I'm just a bit older, and don't feel the need for instant gratification and continuous updates. I placed an order. It'll get here when it gets here.
Is asking for a single WIP render nearly 3 months after funding ended, and over a month since the last update finished really considered "instant gratification"? I mean, that's kind of stretching the meaning of the word instant in my mind.
And really, I didn't care about updates either, but that doesn't make me less annoyed they acted like jerks rather than providing one to the people (aka the customers who paid them) who did want one.
As you know, we hate to do quick'n dirty, whether it's a miniature, an image, or an update (we easily take 4+ hours to write an update). Most people appreciate the care we put in what we do, but we can understand the eagerness of those weaned on Twitter who are accustomed to more instantaneous conversations...
As someone who backed the project for a not-insignificant figure, has expressed discontent in this thread previously about the negativity, and who has remained cautiously optimistic about the project in general, I'd like to say: that comment makes me want to choke someone.
Same here!
This is unbearable, last order, as I already bought twice, for ever!. The sheer arrogance they expressed in that post and also complaining about backers in french!! It clearly shows the missing education.
Up to today we only saw ONE miniature, One-Shot Blondie! Over 8 weeks ago!! And they dare to complain about backers who ask for some info?!! A reply à la RH to whom it may concern at RH: VergognateVi ...... maleducati! (since it seems they only understand something if it 1.) is not in english, 2.) doesn't criticize their work, 3.) is at their level [relatively easy to understand as they seem to confound arrogance with something else] and 4.) doesn't ask for info about this KS)
Redbeard wrote: Yeah, I'm serious. Maybe I'm just a bit older, and don't feel the need for instant gratification and continuous updates. I placed an order. It'll get here when it gets here.
I can certainly appreciate your point, but the value of good communication is almost immeasurable, with the side benefit of being almost cost insignificant.
Redbeard wrote: Yeah, I'm serious. Maybe I'm just a bit older, and don't feel the need for instant gratification and continuous updates. I placed an order. It'll get here when it gets here.
I can certainly appreciate your point, but the value of good communication is almost immeasurable, with the side benefit of being almost cost insignificant.
The opposite though, well...
Well I'm just a bit older too and have a lot of patience. But that evaporated when their arrogance eclipsed the beauty of their miniatures.
Redbeard wrote: Yeah, I'm serious. Maybe I'm just a bit older, and don't feel the need for instant gratification and continuous updates. I placed an order. It'll get here when it gets here.
I can certainly appreciate your point, but the value of good communication is almost immeasurable, with the side benefit of being almost cost insignificant.
The opposite though, well...
Well I'm just a bit older too and have a lot of patience. But that evaporated when their arrogance eclipsed the beauty of their miniatures.
Aye, frankly I'm getting a bit tired of the insinuation that anyone who wants to know what exactly they're up to with the almost 700K they raked in is some petulant ADHD-racked Tweenie that can only absorb information in 140 character Twits.
Redbeard wrote: Yeah, I'm serious. Maybe I'm just a bit older, and don't feel the need for instant gratification and continuous updates. I placed an order. It'll get here when it gets here.
I can certainly appreciate your point, but the value of good communication is almost immeasurable, with the side benefit of being almost cost insignificant.
The opposite though, well...
Well I'm just a bit older too and have a lot of patience. But that evaporated when their arrogance eclipsed the beauty of their miniatures.
I'm also "older", and have patience, but I resent RH's arrogance as much as I resent Redbeard's rather insulting inferences. While I personally don't expect anything from RH, nor do I give much of a feth about their updates, the comment about "instant gratification and continuous updates" is a pretty poor choice of manner to deal with your fellow forumites - the ones who are getting upset are those who were eagerly hoping for an update promised at the end of last week - which never eventuated and instead came as a rather insulting and arrogant message to their backers.
As I've said, I expect very little from RH, and so my participation in this thread is pretty much keeping up to date with somewhere I threw money, and for entertainment at the circus that results from their poor communication and arrogant attitudes.
Brook - as for the 2nd KS - it depends how much they feth this one up and in what manner. (and how much they give away as freebies in any subsequent ones). Tre Manor burnt a lot of bridges with the mess that his KS1 became (and is still dragging out for many), his second one got cancelled and his third one made a fraction of the first. How well do you think Sedition Wars V2 would do right now?
KS projects like Dreamforge, which are also hideously late (looking to be a year or more late to complete at this rate) keep up backer support and goodwill by being amicable and communicating pretty regularly. I somehow don't think this one is going to do as well on comms as Mark's.
Communications will be poor with plenty of 'attitude'
(this might just be due to their first language being French rather than being deliberate, I've worked with some really nice French folk and it does seem common to many of them even where there is no intent to cause offense)
I dunno, Matthieu has French as his first language, and his English is pretty much perfect - but more importantly he seems to find RH to be arrogant in both languages.
Azazelx wrote: Brook - as for the 2nd KS - it depends how much they feth this one up and in what manner. (and how much they give away as freebies in any subsequent ones). Tre Manor burnt a lot of bridges with the mess that his KS1 became (and is still dragging out for many), his second one got cancelled and his third one made a fraction of the first. How well do you think Sedition Wars V2 would do right now?
Aye, but look at Blackwater Gulch, who had the gall to start a second KS while the first one wasn't even delivered on yet and better yet, kept promoting that gak while keeping us in the dark about the status of the first one, as it was all out of the hands of that person and handled by a company that fething refused to give you a straight answer because feth you, we don't know how to pack a few boxes of minis so this is going to take a few months okay, in the meantime, new campaign!! And look, plenty of new backers there who told us first campaigners to shut the feth up already and pledge on the new campaign because shut up that's why.
I'm sure the same will happen with Raging Heroes pt. the second whenever it happens.
BrookM wrote: Ah, now there's some lovely feedback right there that really cements the justification of getting in just a small pledge and nothing more. Yes they're under a lot of pressure and sure they want to do everything perfectly, but with posts like that after a long time of silence, well good going. /slowclap
Re: Second campaign..
Chances are, come the second campaign, everything will in all likeliness be forgiven and forgotten by a large part of the customers, meaning it's back to grid one for a lot of forgiving people and so, the whole kerfuffle starts all over again.
Amirite?
Yes, you probably are right...
That's the nature of this particular beast, unfortunately!
Happened with the example I gave, I'm sure it will happen again with this company, despite how the current campaign is being run. But we'll see.
I remain very pleased that I held off placing any money in the kickstarter from these guys and will look forward to buying their models as and when they actually exist and can be ordered from a reliable 3rd party vendor.
I think there needs to be a stronger emphasis on customer service and PR by the company, now that it's hit 'the big league' with this kickstarter, instead of sarcasm and dismissal towards those who have pledged their money towards a product that doesn't exist yet, as they currently read very poorly.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I remain very pleased that I held off placing any money in the kickstarter from these guys and will look forward to buying their models as and when they actually exist and can be ordered from a reliable 3rd party vendor.
Redbeard wrote: Yeah, I'm serious. Maybe I'm just a bit older, and don't feel the need for instant gratification and continuous updates. I placed an order. It'll get here when it gets here.
It has nothing to do with instant gratification or twitter culture or whatever nonsense about the "younger generations" you want to espouse. It has to do with being a competent and capable project manager and keeping your stakeholders (the backers) adequately informed about the progress. Do it once a week. It's not hard. A weekly project update on Friday, even if says "here's what we're presently working on" and has a bulleted list, would be good enough for most people.
They give none of that, and they give it with attitude.
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I remain very pleased that I held off placing any money in the kickstarter from these guys and will look forward to buying their models as and when they actually exist and can be ordered from a reliable 3rd party vendor.
But vhen vill zat beeeee?
That's a great question, but, like Avatars of War, until they have a product to sell, they don't get my money... I bloody love the product, but I don't give my money to people for showing me a pretty picture on the internet when they also have a prior reputation for not getting their shiz together.
I did buy the original trio from Raging Heroes, several years back, and the delay back then was so long I forgot I'd ordered them... Things have not improved much in that regard from where I am sitting, lovely concepts, great minis, serious talent, terrible business execution with a very 'continental' attitude towards productions and criticism (remember Rackham and the 'charming' feedback from them... now what happened to Rackham again???).
cincydooley wrote: It has to do with being a competent and capable project manager and keeping your stakeholders (the backers) adequately informed about the progress.
Here's the thing about kickstarters, at least from what I've seen. They're not run by experienced project managers, they're run by people with skills related to what they're kickstarting, who are learning project management on the fly. These guys went from a small studio where they'd unveil maybe one mini every couple of months, to having 3/4 of a million dollars in backers. They're not project managers, they're miniature designers. To expect that they'd immediately pick up the skills of a company that size is unrealistic.
But, keep grousing and complaining and make yourself unhappy. Or, conversely, those of you who backed out, keep telling yourselves how wise you were.
If there are no results in a year, then I'll start to get worried. For now, they can do whatever they want. I'm sure they're more interested in making sure the stuff they do meets their quality standards than they are in sending weekly email updates on the last week's work. As someone involved in project management, who has to make such weekly reports to my boss, I can tell you that they're quite tedious to write, and don't always have anything concrete in them.
cincydooley wrote: It has to do with being a competent and capable project manager and keeping your stakeholders (the backers) adequately informed about the progress.
Here's the thing about kickstarters, at least from what I've seen. They're not run by experienced project managers, they're run by people with skills related to what they're kickstarting, who are learning project management on the fly. These guys went from a small studio where they'd unveil maybe one mini every couple of months, to having 3/4 of a million dollars in backers. They're not project managers, they're miniature designers. To expect that they'd immediately pick up the skills of a company that size is unrealistic.
On the contrary, it's unrealistic to believe this is a skill only required of multimillion dollar companies. Even if you've never done anything more in depth than pay for a mobile phone plan, you should know that being upfront with your creditors about delays is better than letting things fester.
cincydooley wrote: It has to do with being a competent and capable project manager and keeping your stakeholders (the backers) adequately informed about the progress.
Here's the thing about kickstarters, at least from what I've seen. They're not run by experienced project managers, they're run by people with skills related to what they're kickstarting, who are learning project management on the fly. These guys went from a small studio where they'd unveil maybe one mini every couple of months, to having 3/4 of a million dollars in backers. They're not project managers, they're miniature designers. To expect that they'd immediately pick up the skills of a company that size is unrealistic.
But, keep grousing and complaining and make yourself unhappy. Or, conversely, those of you who backed out, keep telling yourselves how wise you were.
If there are no results in a year, then I'll start to get worried. For now, they can do whatever they want. I'm sure they're more interested in making sure the stuff they do meets their quality standards than they are in sending weekly email updates on the last week's work. As someone involved in project management, who has to make such weekly reports to my boss, I can tell you that they're quite tedious to write, and don't always have anything concrete in them.
But you are required to make them, nonetheless... You make regular reports, despite anything happening, to assure people that nothing is happening. No News is not always good news, it leaves a vacuum, like with GW's silence policy, that can be filled with rumor mongering, gossip and anything or everything else.
Communication, updates and other waffle reassure all those folks who've just spluged money that the company isn't going to vanish or otherwise misappropriate the funds they've just been loaned in lieu of product. It's sensible, good PR and enlightened self interest for a company that likely will want repeat custom and a repeat of the success of this last venture.
I feel that first kickstarter taught them the really wrong lessons, second that they learned nothing from the lessons they should have learned and finally that they burn goodwill on really stupid stuff.
Their second kickstarter may be good regardless of their present behavior, but much will depend on how well they deliver on this one.
On the queries about WIP and progress after the HI renders and their later responses its only logical people would demand them, their reputation is not in as firm ground as it was at the start of it.
Here's the thing about kickstarters, at least from what I've seen. They're not run by experienced project managers, they're run by people with skills related to what they're kickstarting, who are learning project management on the fly. These guys went from a small studio where they'd unveil maybe one mini every couple of months, to having 3/4 of a million dollars in backers. They're not project managers, they're miniature designers. To expect that they'd immediately pick up the skills of a company that size is unrealistic.
But, keep grousing and complaining and make yourself unhappy. Or, conversely, those of you who backed out, keep telling yourselves how wise you were.
If there are no results in a year, then I'll start to get worried. For now, they can do whatever they want. I'm sure they're more interested in making sure the stuff they do meets their quality standards than they are in sending weekly email updates on the last week's work. As someone involved in project management, who has to make such weekly reports to my boss, I can tell you that they're quite tedious to write, and don't always have anything concrete in them.
All of your arguments here are fine. Your veiled insults earlier were not. I'm also not a project manager, but I have to keep a number of relevant stakeholders updated in my work, as tedious as it is, and as it's not a part of my "core" duties, it happens outside of those hours.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PsychoticStorm wrote: I feel that first kickstarter taught them the really wrong lessons, second that they learned nothing from the lessons they should have learned and finally that they burn goodwill on really stupid stuff.
Their second kickstarter may be good regardless of their present behavior, but much will depend on how well they deliver on this one.
On the queries about WIP and progress after the HI renders and their later responses its only logical people would demand them, their reputation is not in as firm ground as it was at the start of it.
With all due respect to the people that are content to wait, that's entirely irrelevant to whether they ought to be putting out updates; the fact is thatthey said updates were forthcoming.
@Arlie Alsup: Good point! Got the concept artist on it. @Stryke: We postponed the seminars until September as it seemed complicated to organize them properly with everyone's summer vacations happening at different dates... It should have been part of the previous update but somehow, the topic slipped under the radar, I am sorry about that :( @R Naysmith: Indeed, we thought we'd do a new Update earlier, but then, we wanted to include in it a bunch of images, and so we pushed out the date of the next Update. It should be coming late next week, now.
@Thargan: I hear you my friend! But we're all huddled together finalizing some posing, so I fear the write-up will lag behind... however, I just found out that Rasputin predicted the end of the world for today, so this entire conversation may be moot by tomorrow...
Whatever evils twitter, facebook or the internal combustion engine have wreaked on today's youth, the expectation that RH would be pushing an update is not one of them. That they did all on their own.
Two weeks ago an update was coming in a week. A week ago they were "huddled together finalizing some posing". Today the expectations that they would have an update out are the unreasonable chattering of spoiled children.
For anyone who might be thinking that it might be something getting lost in translation, or that there are cultural differences in ways to expressing this or that:
Nope. French is my first language, and I deal with French expats at work all week long. This is snark, and the way an adult talks to a child. There is no level of respect implied in the way that was written, it's barely above the "because I said so" level.
If they are making up witty section headers like "Fun with Foundries" and references to BBT, then it is also not because they "don't get Amuhricans, urh urh." They understand your complaining in English just fine. They just talk about it in French because they won't be bothered.
Just to chime in with Redbeard here for a moment before he's tarred and feathered . I totally agree with you guys that the attitude coupled with lack of updates is unacceptable.
But, if the product is fantastic in the end, it's possible all will be forgiven. I finally got my Form 1 3D printer this week. Really overdue, few updates, company hard to communicate with for a while, expensive... and I'm in love now! Backers were restless but thankfully they took their time and seem to have gotten it right.
Doesn't excuse attitude, but end product really is the most important! I'd rather have surly comms and late delivery than an on time crappy product, a la some of Mantic's. I did as many are saying here and waited closer to release to pick and choose from them. With RH, by contrast, I think the results will be great, you just have to forget about it for 6 months, unfortunately!
This is what one of the commenters got in an email reply from them:
The thing is, we're working away like mad to meet our self-imposed deadline
of finishing a certain number of minis by tomorrow, and it's really hard to
focus on anything else at the moment :(
We just got home now, it's 5AM and we've yet to have dinner... We're giving
our all to make the best possible minis for the TGG Kickstarter, and it is
true that we have left communications fall a bit on the wayside, because,
to be truthful, any time spent not working on the minis is penalising every
single backer, and we don't think that's fair either...
Nevertheless, we do strive to respond quickly to all backers' direct
messages, and so please don't hesitate to be in touch again
BrookM wrote: This is what one of the commenters got in an email reply from them:
The thing is, we're working away like mad to meet our self-imposed deadline
of finishing a certain number of minis by tomorrow, and it's really hard to
focus on anything else at the moment :(
We just got home now, it's 5AM and we've yet to have dinner... We're giving
our all to make the best possible minis for the TGG Kickstarter, and it is
true that we have left communications fall a bit on the wayside, because,
to be truthful, any time spent not working on the minis is penalising every
single backer, and we don't think that's fair either...
Nevertheless, we do strive to respond quickly to all backers' direct
messages, and so please don't hesitate to be in touch again
But, if the product is fantastic in the end, it's possible all will be forgiven. I finally got my Form 1 3D printer this week. Really overdue, few updates, company hard to communicate with for a while, expensive... and I'm in love now!
So we should expect pics of the official custom Dakka 28mm models of Yak and Lego when? I suspect Alpharius would want truescale versions but I'd prefer more OOTS style ones personally.
As a backer I prefer communication, especially were I can provide feedback and not were I am presented with finished unchangeable results.
During the course of the kickstarter they managed to ruin their reputation and statement that they will deliver the concept art in miniatures form, so I would rather have communication on what they are doing.
Although that message is a lot less snarky than the original one that sparked this current firestorm, I don't see why this couldn't have been the original message instead?
I think the discussion is a little too focused on what we expect, as opposed to what expectations they have set for themselves: as noted above, we're now a full week past the date they set for their new update.
Their last update was July 29; we're now a few hours away from the entire month of August passing without an update beyond some quick comments (FYI, their last update contained the line "we know that, ... you would have loved to see some eye candy in this Update but alas, as much as we've been working on many sculptures al at once, none is ready for its close-up yet. But we'll make up for it in the next Update. ).
Remember the infamous "80% of the sculpting work that is required to send the minis to 3D printing is done... "100% of the minis are 80% ready”"? That was July 5th.
What that last item means is that they have only seven months to: a) run 3 (maybe 4!) pledge managers, b) have 100% of the sculpts "finalised[sic"] and finally c) do their production runs for the 3 (4) shipping dates.
RH has honestly set up perhaps the most challenging fulfillment operation of any major miniature campaign (certainly the most complicated I have seen). So when they fall down on meeting their own deadlines for relatively simple things, it does tend to undermine confidence in their overall competence, which in turn can lead to a cascading problem with their fulfillment. That is, when people lose confidence in the company it can have effects on what gets ordered.
For example: if enough people lose confidence in goals being met and decide to "cash out" in the first wave, RH not only has the problem of the distribution of production being distorted, but they have to have the freebies ready to go for all these people that are ready to walk away at the start (or, alternatively, demand that people pay for two waves of shipping for their freebies...). When I pledged, I planned on getting things that (I presume) are spread throughout the production schedule. But if they prove sufficiently inept, the idea of just cashing out on $10 heroes becomes ever more attractive...
Let's also not forget, they want to have two more KS campaigns in the near future! It's not like they have good will to burn here.
BrookM wrote: This is what one of the commenters got in an email reply from them:
The thing is, we're working away like mad to meet our self-imposed deadline
of finishing a certain number of minis by tomorrow, and it's really hard to
focus on anything else at the moment :(
We just got home now, it's 5AM and we've yet to have dinner... We're giving
our all to make the best possible minis for the TGG Kickstarter, and it is
true that we have left communications fall a bit on the wayside, because,
to be truthful, any time spent not working on the minis is penalising every
single backer, and we don't think that's fair either...
Nevertheless, we do strive to respond quickly to all backers' direct
messages, and so please don't hesitate to be in touch again
How do they explain them having enough time to post random stuff on Tumblr but not to update their backers then? Or their very passive aggressive tone when speaking to backers?
MeanGreenStompa wrote: I remain very pleased that I held off placing any money in the kickstarter from these guys and will look forward to buying their models as and when they actually exist and can be ordered from a reliable 3rd party vendor.
But vhen vill zat beeeee?
That's a great question, but, like Avatars of War, until they have a product to sell, they don't get my money... I bloody love the product, but I don't give my money to people for showing me a pretty picture on the internet when they also have a prior reputation for not getting their shiz together.
I did buy the original trio from Raging Heroes, several years back, and the delay back then was so long I forgot I'd ordered them... Things have not improved much in that regard from where I am sitting, lovely concepts, great minis, serious talent, terrible business execution with a very 'continental' attitude towards productions and criticism (remember Rackham and the 'charming' feedback from them... now what happened to Rackham again???).
I had actually forgot about kickstarting this until I saw this thread, who knows when we'll recieve them.
I disagree with RITides that the final product will wash away their transgressions. I can think of a number of companies I won't return to because of customer service issues--like communication. Also, if there's anything universal about the wargamers on Dakka, it's that they hold long, shamefully negative grudges.
BrookM wrote: This is what one of the commenters got in an email reply from them:
... because, to be truthful, any time spent not working on the minis is penalising every single backer, and we don't think that's fair either...
As a backer, I support this statement 100%. I didn't back a communication company, I backed a miniatures company.
And as a backer, I think that's a false choice. Prodos manage to communicate, and turn out great models. WWX manage to communicate, and turn out great models. The idea that even cursory communication somehow takes away from their ability to deliver the miniatures is an idea only pushed by companies that areat communication. EDIT: And as Sining said, if you support them in their statement that "time not spent working on the minis is penalising every single backer", why won't you address the fact that they apparently have plenty of time to spare when it comes to posting images of weird fashion on their Tumblr page?
I don't need updates every week either, but I also don't like being insulted. By them, by you or by anyone else for that matter. The update was something they brought up with a timeline that they laid down, as I understand it.
Their new excuse is a bs statement. They eat, sleep, talk, surf the internet, watch TV and movies, fight and feth in their time like everyone else. To pretend that statement is in any way truthful is disingenuous at best. And it's insulting to our intelligence.
Besides, they were out until 5am. Ordinarily I wouldn't give a damn what they were doing - because usually I give project creators an allowance that they also get to live their lives, but I imagine in this case they were "not working on the minis".
As evidenced by my recent posts, I've pretty much been in "forget about RH's KS for the next year" mode before this gak storm in a teacup started. Though the timing for people asking for an update is actually quite reasonable, since their bs time frame said the first wave would be shipping in "the Fall" (September-November). I never believed it myself, because I've had a bit of experience with RH, having pre-ordered a number of sets of three and five figures from them before which arrived months later than their projected release dates. But you know, those spoiled children who gave them three quarters of a million dollars - for some reason those entitled immature fethers had the gall to believe what RH said when they were holding their hands out for money. The fools.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I disagree with RITides that the final product will wash away their transgressions. I can think of a number of companies I won't return to because of customer service issues--like communication. Also, if there's anything universal about the wargamers on Dakka, it's that they hold long, shamefully negative grudges.
Yup, that's why I no longer deal with Blackwater Gulch, didn't like the way the big company handled the wrapping up of the old campaign and how they kicked off a new campaign while the first one wasn't even properly concluded yet, so after I got my stuff I put them on permanent ignore, missing bits or not, I was thoroughly through with them.
----
Which reminds me, we're backers, not customers, meaning we will just have to deal with any delays and whatnots, because hey, thems the rules of Kickstarter baby!
Again, that's why I love Poots and his project. He might not update often through official channels, but at least when he does so it's with updates that show off upcoming product or a prototype of gaming pieces or an update on the whole process as a whole and where it stands.
I know, petty to bring up now, so early in the cycle of this one, but at least he jumped to it straight away after sleeping for a few days instead of being gobsmacked and full of it.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I disagree with RITides that the final product will wash away their transgressions. I can think of a number of companies I won't return to because of customer service issues--like communication. Also, if there's anything universal about the wargamers on Dakka, it's that they hold long, shamefully negative grudges.
Just to clarify, I wasn't saying this is a sure thing, just a possibility.I know the opposite is often true. Just thought it was worth mentioning
I guess they have the strong feeling that if they would seriously reply to our questions with a real update that would mean the end of the world they know!
Spoiler:
"Maman, can you tell me the story of the end of our Grand Nation?" "Bien sûr mon petit Nicolas! So here goes:
"ʆ It started with a KS ʆ"
"Maman!"
"OK. When RH was still a small company they needed money, like all small companies do who want to grow. So the bank didn't help, nor did the rest of the family, as they already had helped. So they looked for some other fools... and they started a crowd founding. With lots of promises and not really much else to show they snatched up quite some money. When the investors wanted to know how they proceeded they kept them at bay by promising them an update. And it worked.
Then the revenue office got notice of that and thought that they might get a part of the earnings and wrote them a letter and wanted to get more information to concretize their receivables. Information?! RH were already well versed to keep such silly requests at bay and answered them in their usual arrogant tone and promised to keep them updated. Little did those fools know that they would never get one...
A week later the revenue office tried again and got another promise, this time of an update with info. Another week later the revenue office dared to ask for it, as they didn't get any. They were informed that RH had grander things in preparation for them and they should stop acting like kids.
It happened that Le Président, cette..." "Oui, maman, je sais. L' Hollandaise." " He was visiting Montpellier and when asking why the revenue entrances where so low was informed that they had problems. Just as an example they showed him the communication with RH. He sensed that he needed to meet them.
When he met RH in their office he immediately recognized his own kind. They were natural born arrogant half-wits! "The force is strong with you! You will come with me to the captial where I teach you more!"
Thus RH came to be part of the cabinet. They learned fast, within days they knew everything! And after a week, when the Président had his first foreign trip, RH send him an update! Oh what a joy! I guess that only his ex-wife was as happy as I was!" "Well Maman, you and dad!"
" That very evening they spoke in front of the Assemblée Nationale! They proclaimed the new credo of their government: L'arrogance c'est mois! Their first acts were that updates are only allowed to be executed by the French government, all software companies worldwide rejoiced! And that IQ tests were of no need as AQ tests became mandatory for anyone who wanted to work for the government, gastronomy, or in the tourism industry." "Maman, but AQ tests didn't change anything"
"I know, but now it's a law. They even promised an update of our republic, La République Français 6.0!
As they governed by updates no one did anything as everyone was waiting for an update about what to do. Thus the nation was near bankrupt, as nobody paid the taxes, since nobody asked for them to be paid!
In an unknown act of aggression they declared war on Germany, by threatening them with an update! Chancellor Merkel immediately ordered her troops to be readied. France would fall within a week! She was shocked when her advisors informed her that the stock market had crumbled under the looming update and Germany was losing billions by the minute! Bankruptcy or losing a war. Being German she choose to surrender! Her words still ring in my ears: Verlieren ja, bankrott niemals!
At the evening of victory RH spoke again to the Assemblée Nationale. That evening he even brought Descartes thoughts to our present day: Je update, ergo sum! I update, therefore I am!
Then the end started...
When they returned that night they must have been rather tired and hungry. You know they had not eaten nor slept since that KS. While being huddled around the pc thinking about the pose of the Secretary of Defense Jovovich for the new propaganda posters they suddenly heard "you got mail".
A solitary investor from Down Under asked for information. You see the avatar was so cute...and in a rare moment of indulgence Mireille replied with an update!" "Oh no....Mais Maman, that's forbidden!" "That's the reason why they made that law.
She even replied kindly, excused herself for the delay and even showed some pictures of finished miniatures and renders of things to come. Oh hadn't she! The update was immediately known in the whole community and also to the rest of the world!
Chancellor Merkel promptly rallied the troops and attacked. At the end of the day France didn't exist any more and was under the governance of the EC. Our troops were still waiting in their barracks for the update to really invade Germany and disarm them, thus no one was harmed. Germany was asked to govern France as they had had some experience, they declined: We do not want to have tze same problems again! TZose arrogantz are your problems now! All declined but the Netherlands, they had only one precondition." "I know Maman, but I still think the Brie tastes better" "Eat your Gauda Nicolas and listen.
Vichy denied the Government of the Free French Republic the access. They didn't want them for a second time, as tourism had finally well recovered. Thus they went to Montpellier, where they reside now.
Let's change to something more interesting. What would you like to be when you grow up?" "Président!" "Ah, come il papá! One day I will sing you a song about him."
"But tell me Maman, what happened to Mireille?"
"The moment she replied everyone understood what would happen. The people would look upon it as a weakness, you know she even replied in a kind way after all and gave vital information away. No one would ever again fear their updates. They had lost most of the power they had. She was exiled. When she saw Benoit for the last time, she asked him when they would meet again. He said he would send her an update..." "Oh!" "Yes mon Chouchou, exiled forever."
Have you tried contacting them through the KSPM tool? I had a better response to that, at least initially, than the email I sent (during the KS) which still hasn't technically had a response.
One thing to note is that rather than saying they're looking at something / working on something, they seem to have a tendency to leave something unanswered until they have a definite response.
At least I think someone let them know what people thought of the tumblr being regularly updated and what hogwash it was... because it stopped being updated a week ago.
The thing is though even with their arrogance, lack of updates and mishandling of the post-KS PR, if they popped another kickstarter up in a few months they'd still get a mass of pledgers.
Just look at Mierce, the amount of vitriol slung their way after the 'maelstrom incident' was unreal. Yet not long after, Mierce launched a KS and all was forgiven as shiny new product appeared before our eyes, and they comfortably hit their funding goal. Everyone forgot how the same man who'd merrily lied to them all for months effectively stealing from a loyal customer base was still the fella who owned the 'new' Mierce. There's a very similar story with CMoN which I'm sure the more savvy consumer is aware of, and yet Raging Heroes has reached nowhere near this level of bad PR, so you can hardly expect the next KS not to do well again, if even the aforementioned companies can pull it off.
That's just how this community seems to work, no matter who is producing the miniatures, no matter how much 'everyone hates them'. As soon as a new line of plastic toys is waved in front of us, the credit cards seem to leap into the ring. I'm not criticising, it's just how it seems to work and no amount of sarcasm or circular arguing in threads will change that. If everyone boycotted after things they didn't like, then maybe there would be incentive to change, but it's never going to happen. Again look at how many years people have been saying GW is going to die due to pricing, yet even if they're 'fiddling figures' to just stay in profit even that is a long way from dying.
Yes I'd love an update, no I didn't expect them to be great communicators. But at the end of the day if the miniatures are as pretty as the ones they usually produce, the patience will have been worth it and I'll have got a good chunk of new shinies for a lot less than I'd pay at retail.
Everyone? Not quite. I didn't jump on board the Rob Lane bus, and I'm sure a lot of others didn't as well. Of course, there's no way to measure "what might have been" - either in the case of something like the Mierce KS or even the recent Incursion KS that barely scraped $210k (by being tight with the extras until the 11th hour).
I'm sure there's a lot of people who didn't know, many others who didn't care, and others who "took a gamble" on Mierce. But it doesn't mean they made as much as they would/could have if not linked to the Maelstrom debacle. 108UKP is pretty good, but it's not huge.
CMON benefited from the NWMO thing being many years ago, so newer people to the hobby/online community and vets who had been out for a few years like myself had no idea. As time goes on, it might end up the same for Mierce. Maybe.
Ignatius-Grulgor wrote: The thing is though even with their arrogance, lack of updates and mishandling of the post-KS PR, if they popped another kickstarter up in a few months they'd still get a mass of pledgers.
Just look at Mierce, the amount of vitriol slung their way after the 'maelstrom incident' was unreal. Yet not long after, Mierce launched a KS and all was forgiven as shiny new product appeared before our eyes, and they comfortably hit their funding goal. Everyone forgot how the same man who'd merrily lied to them all for months effectively stealing from a loyal customer base was still the fella who owned the 'new' Mierce. There's a very similar story with CMoN which I'm sure the more savvy consumer is aware of, and yet Raging Heroes has reached nowhere near this level of bad PR, so you can hardly expect the next KS not to do well again, if even the aforementioned companies can pull it off.
That's just how this community seems to work, no matter who is producing the miniatures, no matter how much 'everyone hates them'. As soon as a new line of plastic toys is waved in front of us, the credit cards seem to leap into the ring. I'm not criticising, it's just how it seems to work and no amount of sarcasm or circular arguing in threads will change that. If everyone boycotted after things they didn't like, then maybe there would be incentive to change, but it's never going to happen. Again look at how many years people have been saying GW is going to die due to pricing, yet even if they're 'fiddling figures' to just stay in profit even that is a long way from dying.
Yes I'd love an update, no I didn't expect them to be great communicators. But at the end of the day if the miniatures are as pretty as the ones they usually produce, the patience will have been worth it and I'll have got a good chunk of new shinies for a lot less than I'd pay at retail.
Please don't ignore the fact that Mierce:
1. Was not a single bit arrogant in any of their posts during the KS, but in fact was rather gracious in all their replies.
2. Communicates REGULARLY. I mean, we're talking about multiple updates a month (they had 5 in August) all with a TON of content, from content about the game to stunning Works in Progress.
3. Everything Mierce has produced so far has been shipped 100% on schedule with the KS estimates. Most were early.
So in short, they've been everything Raging Heroes has not been.
In other news, Toughest Girls backers....any updates yet? I'm really curious to see some of the WiPs.
Yeah everyone was a little imprecise, was just quicker than being more specific perhaps I should've said it didn't stop a lot of people jumping on board anyway. I know I personally avoided the Mierce KS purely based on who owned the company, and I didn't trust it wasn't just a quick way to raise funds. It just seems bad PR is very quickly forgotten in the community at large, even stuff that is a lot more shocking than an arrogant attitude and a lack of support. I'm also surprised at how you consider 100-200k not a lot, admittedly it's dwarfed by the results of companies like kingdom death on KS, but it's also a lot more than a lot these companies could ever have expected to get through traditional funding channels. As for Mierce having past sins forgotten, it's already happening, one well handled KS and they're already getting people back.
cincydooley wrote:
Please don't ignore the fact that Mierce:
1. Was not a single bit arrogant in any of their posts during the KS, but in fact was rather gracious in all their replies.
2. Communicates REGULARLY. I mean, we're talking about multiple updates a month (they had 5 in August) all with a TON of content, from content about the game to stunning Works in Progress.
3. Everything Mierce has produced so far has been shipped 100% on schedule with the KS estimates. Most were early.
So in short, they've been everything Raging Heroes has not been.
In other news, Toughest Girls backers....any updates yet? I'm really curious to see some of the WiPs.
They basically had to be, the fact that anyone backed at all was a surprise to me, the whole thing seems to have been an exercise in PR. If they'd been anything but perfect with the KS it would've pretty much been the death of the company and with it a very pretty line of miniatures, very few people trusted the company at the point they launched the KS. Now they have indeed handled it well, and maybe a year or two from now if they're still going and they do a third or fourth KS after the planned second I might even consider backing.
I'm not defending Raging Heroes at all here, I'm just pointing out that no matter what companies in the miniatures hobby seem to do they always find customers somehow. Hell I'd love an update, planning on using them for traitor guard stand ins and I want to know what the prettiest ones will be. I just wish medics weren't so terrible in gaming terms as I think I'll end up with three out of this KS if they stick to the concept art.
That makes a lot of sense. I know I was pretty hesitant after the whole Maelstrom thing, but I have to admit the guys at Mierce have been FANTASTIC so far.
Agreed- they had a huge uphill battle to fight, but they (Mierce) have done everything right so far. I was pretty sure I'd never give them a second look, and now I'm considering them somewhat.
But it's because of why cincy posted:
cincydooley wrote:Please don't ignore the fact that Mierce:
1. Was not a single bit arrogant in any of their posts during the KS, but in fact was rather gracious in all their replies.
2. Communicates REGULARLY. I mean, we're talking about multiple updates a month (they had 5 in August) all with a TON of content, from content about the game to stunning Works in Progress.
3. Everything Mierce has produced so far has been shipped 100% on schedule with the KS estimates. Most were early.
So in short, they've been everything Raging Heroes has not been.
In other news, Toughest Girls backers....any updates yet? I'm really curious to see some of the WiPs.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Someone else mailed them and had this to say:
Okay, for now: yesterday I mailed them directly and get this answer:
*****"Thanks for writing. I am sorry for keeping you in the dark. I know you'd like a 2-minute update, but we just don't seem to be able to work that way. I understand how this can be frustrating, but please give us a chance to finish the first wave. We should be able to communicate more often after that.
And if you have a concern or a problem, please don't hesitate to get in touch directly. We do reply to direct messages fairly quickly, as most pledgers who have been in touch with us can agree.
I hope this helps,
Best,
Mireille
Raging Heroes Team"*********
I think this will really help und so what can we do? Waiting
Sure, I finished first wave SOON (tm) would be sweet. Probably even better than some unfinished models and longer wait...
but when? When I ask? This month? This year?
RoninXiC wrote: Sure, I finished first wave SOON (tm) would be sweet. Probably even better than some unfinished models and longer wait...
but when? When I ask? This month? This year?
Well it certainly won't be this month; they refuse to send out the pledge manager until they have finished sculpts, they refuse to show WiPs, and they'll have to give people an absolute minimum of a couple of weeks to make their selections from Wave 1. Given their shambolic organisation so far, I'm assuming they won't even have started work on the pledge manager itself, so they'll probably need at least a week after they finish the Wave 1 sculpts to get it functional and emailed out to everyone.
Then they have to actually cast the miniatures and ship them out.
I doubt we'll see a substantial update before the end of the month, if then, and at this point I'll be surprised if the first wave ships before Christmas.
I think Yohdrin's assessment of the timeline is pretty much spot on. I certainly wouldn't order a wild number of casts without a good idea of what the market wants, and if we look at bombshell babes, some backers took almost a month to complete the survey. (some longer, if I remember correctly?)
Personally, I blame Mark Mondragon. If I'd been able to order as many Black Widows as I wanted to, then I wouldn't have bothered with this one, I think.
I'm kinda hoping that they deliver on time, as Wolfenstein is going to be my future space marine captain, but as we all know, I'm not allowed to have nice things.
I don't see ANYTHING like that on their official Facebook page. Their two most recent posts are the following.
This one posted on september third in response to a poster asking about an update.
Absolutely fair. We've been working hard to finish a series of minis, but we'll get something out ASAP.
and this one about two hours ago:
(Recopying from a conversation we had with some FB posters)
"Re the updates, we've already spent a few hours on one, it will be finished shortly, but don't get too excited yet, though, as the Big Update with all the pics will be the one after that... The BU will be released just a few days after the upcoming update, though, as we're nearly done with what we want to show you...
And yes, it is true that making 150 minis from scratch is really insane!!! But amazingly enough, we're moving forward really well, and are tracking pretty close to our plans.
These last few days, we've been mostly working on improving the mould-making process and on sculpting tons of different heads and expressions (sculpting heads is a good sign, because that's usually one of the last step we do). More details about this in the upcoming update."
: oh, be kind! We put the minis first. I'm sure you'll agree that when we have to choose, getting the minis done trumps communications. And after a KS, the amount of work and decisions and setting up that had to be done is mind-boggling.
I mentioned how mierce was capable of creating minis and updating, to which they responded:
: I'm sorry we can't seem to agree. We are very much aware of how other companies run their Kickstarters, both good and bad. Every company has its own sets of challenges. At Raging Heroes , with 2700+ backers for our KS, we strive to please the majority, and sometimes, that will leave some unhappy, and believe me when I say that we are very very sorry for that.....
And my favorite, when I told them I found it surprising they claimed it was the minority that wanted updates:
: then perhaps you haven't been thinking it through: The majority want great minis, and understand that there are trade-offs between working on the minis and writing up updates.
cincydooley wrote: They made a post on Facebook claiming its the minority of people that want updates and they only seek to please the majority.
I heard it was Snowball behind all the problems.
Oooh, classical and layered, nice!
It's certainly nothing that could possibly sway RH, but only a few moments ago KD:M was updated, and if you need a case-in-point to disprove the notion that "there are trade-offs between working on the minis and writing up updates", that case is made by KD:M.
If one wants to see the fruits of good communication with your backers, consider that the above KD:M update already has nearly 100 comments on it. RH's last update (posted July 29)?27.
When I was speaking earlier about good will, you couldn't ask for a better contrast of how it can be built, or torn down; even announcing a delay the comments on KD:M are positive, indeed they clamor for the pledge manager to be reopened so people can put more cash in Adam's pocket.
Is it possible that Rh has an update up their sleeves so amazing that all will be forgotten? Perhaps. But every interaction for a company with their customers is a chance to build their image, and so far RH really don't seem to be rising to the challenge...
Like I mentioned in the KD:M thread, Poots knows how to communicate and when he makes a promise ("Things are hectic right now, expect a regular full update next week!") he does not disappoint, even if he does feel bad for being the bringer of bad news. Hell, we knew that delay was coming, but he is earnest about his intentions and passionate, something he has openly and enthusiastically shared with us all the way from day 1.
While I'm very patient, and also have very low expectations of these guys when it comes to timeliness and communication, their arrogance is really starting to grate.
I have quite conflicting emotions here on one hand I would love frequent communication from them, on the other hand, the little they communicate is better left unmentioned....
AlexHolker wrote:Does not communicating mean no opportunities to be obnoxious? Because in that case I can definitely see the appeal.
PsychoticStorm wrote:I will have to agree with that.
I have quite conflicting emotions here on one hand I would love frequent communication from them, on the other hand, the little they communicate is better left unmentioned....
Summed up nicely there, really.
Probably for the best right now.
Hopefully the miniatures truly are mind blowing works of art - if so, then mostly all will surely be forgiven!
Well played, AlexHolker . But I agree Alpharius, this is par for the course with RH and if their minis amaze, I think most people will look past their attitude.
I'm with Azazelx on this and that's not only because I already called them so.
Up to this KS I ordered twice with them and was more than impressed by their speed. Althou beeing a french company I recieved my goods both times within a week! And in a fab quality. I so hope that they are going to use the same "resin" - it's rather a grey plastic by consistency and touch - they are using now!
Sadly I too think of them that way, as education is merely inexistent. First they promise an update within a certain timeframe - IT WAS THEM OFFERING THIS TO US!!!!! - and then they go call us names because we are deeply disapponted by them for not doing so and they're not even saying sorry, nor giving us any apology, for doing so!
edit: sorry for my spelling...it's really bad...and there shurely are still some errors!
Will the end result truly justify the way things are handled though? It's something peeps seem to enjoy repeating a lot in the comments section and on Facebook.
"They may be terse and under pressure now, so some of their comments may come from the heart of a tiny understaffed company, but it will all be worth it when you have your minis in hand!!!"
Oh gee rude person, thanks for the stuff, it's all good in the hood now ehhhh?
BrookM wrote: Will the end result truly justify the way things are handled though? It's something peeps seem to enjoy repeating a lot in the comments section and on Facebook.
"They may be terse and under pressure now, so some of their comments may come from the heart of a tiny understaffed company, but it will all be worth it when you have your minis in hand!!!"
Oh gee rude person, thanks for the stuff, it's all good in the hood now ehhhh?
I know for me I'll never give them money again. I'm about to tell the buddy I piggy backed on to see if we can cancel my portion. I don't care what the quality is at this point. Unless their attitude changes, my $$ will be going elsewhere.
I'm not necessarily saying that in the case of backers (especially backers who are tracking it and posting here, etc). But for the majority of wargamers, if they release fantastic models, it'll all be OK.
There are limits to this, of course. AoW dwarf campaign possibly being a prime example... but even with all the bad press they've gotten, if they could fix their production problems their product would likely fly off the shelves. They just can't seem to make it in the "warcast" material in the quantity / consistency needed for any kind of real release.
Sorry BrookM, I hope your post it peppered with a good Portion of sarcasm
I run a rather small clothing company. People sometimes give a tough judgement about my work, as they want it to suit their business, which is fine by me. Now my greatest hobby is to redesign things to their liking and get their orders. I do not produce art, but my clients sell those products well. Yet they would never ever come back to buy from me if I would treat them like RH treats us.
Your judgement of people going back to buy from RH again(!) after beeing treated so disrespectfully admitts only one theory: most, if not all, clients must be kids! They (RH) surely think so! As only naive kids would go back and buy from such douchebags!!
And I often read that you can't rush "art"....OHE!!! It seems to me that some haven't understood up to now that RH produce toys!!! Toys ladies and gentlemen!! Not art!! Otherwise those miniatures would be exhibited at the Louvre!! And questionable toys to boot, starting with sexy pin up girls (dressed) and ending with that theyare going to produce children soldiers!!!
Now please dear readers disenchant those douchebags from RH and see them as what they are: producers of toys ( as nice as they might be [the toys that is!]!) not of art. And yes we are entiteled to know when we get the pledge manager for the promised first wave of our KS this month!
miniholic wrote: Sorry BrookM, I hope your post it peppered with a good Portion of sarcasm
..
Your judgement of people going back to buy from RH again(!) after beeing treated so disrespectfully admitts only one theory: most, if not all, clients must be kids! They (RH) surely think so! As only naive kids would go back and buy from such douchebags!!
..
You haven't read a lot of my posts in this thread have you?
miniholic wrote: Sorry BrookM, I hope your post it peppered with a good Portion of sarcasm
..
Your judgement of people going back to buy from RH again(!) after beeing treated so disrespectfully admitts only one theory: most, if not all, clients must be kids! They (RH) surely think so! As only naive kids would go back and buy from such douchebags!!
..
You haven't read a lot of my posts in this thread have you?
Sorry, then I really read it the way you meant it to be read.
...beeing an illiterate italian poses sometimes a handicap. ...occasionally I fail in recognizing sarcasm on the internet.
miniholic wrote: Sorry BrookM, I hope your post it peppered with a good Portion of sarcasm
..
Your judgement of people going back to buy from RH again(!) after beeing treated so disrespectfully admitts only one theory: most, if not all, clients must be kids! They (RH) surely think so! As only naive kids would go back and buy from such douchebags!!
..
You haven't read a lot of my posts in this thread have you?
Sorry, then I really read it the way you meant it to be read.
...beeing an illiterate italian poses sometimes a handicap. ...occasionally I fail in recognizing sarcasm on the internet.
That's quite alright, us no-speaky limey peeps need to stick together.
You're italian? I thought you were german! Dakka flags are really nice...
Cincy: I never made the connection that you were Sean on Facebook. They really have thin skins if they cannot allow even the smallest amount of criticism...
miniholic wrote: Sorry BrookM, I hope your post it peppered with a good Portion of sarcasm
..
Your judgement of people going back to buy from RH again(!) after beeing treated so disrespectfully admitts only one theory: most, if not all, clients must be kids! They (RH) surely think so! As only naive kids would go back and buy from such douchebags!!
..
You haven't read a lot of my posts in this thread have you?
Sorry, then I really read it the way you meant it to be read.
...beeing an illiterate italian poses sometimes a handicap. ...occasionally I fail in recognizing sarcasm on the internet.
That's quite alright, us no-speaky limey peeps need to stick together.
LOL!!! Thanks for that!! Will try my best to get it right from the start next time.
Mathieu Raymond wrote:You're italian? I thought you were german! Dakka flags are really nice...
Cincy: I never made the connection that you were Sean on Facebook. They really have thin skins if they cannot allow even the smallest amount of criticism...
Oh Mathieu, the flag is right, I'm currently working in Germany, region of Bavaria. Great place to work and live.
They only start suspecting something when I start enjoying flora and fauna, as well as life!
cincydooley wrote: Yeah. That's me. Those dudes are the problem. My criticisms weren't even that harsh. I started by simply making some factual statements.
All the yes men make them think what they're doing is okay.
Don't really want to get drawn into the whole thing, but wanted to say that I totally agree with you here.
Yeah, being called out on your argument when all you've done is state the facts of the case is pretty rough.
I am trying to distance myself as much as possible from all of the drama that's apparently slowly brewing from the lack of honest communication. Sure, RH has communicated some stuff to us, but nearly all of it can be condensed into one statement:
"We don't want to show or tell you anything right now, and we will show or tell you something when we think it's ready to be shown or told."
Everything else on top of that is really just crap nobody cares about, in my opinion. I'm waiting patiently for miniatures and production updates. I could care less what time of day it is when they're going to bed, or getting food, or out running errands, or updating their social media, or whatever.
I want an honest update that says something like the following:
"Today we worked on sculpts for 6 of the heroines, finalized casting layouts for 2 more heroines and 4 troops sculpts, and have all of the extra pieces done for 1 of the trooper boxes. We'll continue updating as we progress throughout the week."
That, above all, would be a good update that could take 15 minutes to write up...tops. There's no room for misinterpretation, it keeps backers involved and up to speed with what RH is doing, and it also lays out a work history that's easily trackable for future projects - who knows, maybe it could be used as a milestone to beat in the next KS project, eh? 6 sculpts finalized a week last time? Let's try and do 7 or 8 this time around.
Raging Heroes
September 8
(Recopying from a conversation we had with some FB posters)
"Re the updates, we've already spent a few hours on one, it will be finished shortly, but don't get too excited yet, though, as the Big Update with all the pics will be the one after that... The BU will be released just a few days after the upcoming update, though, as we're nearly done with what we want to show you...
And yes, it is true that making 150 minis from scratch is really insane!!! But amazingly enough, we're moving forward really well, and are tracking pretty close to our plans.
These last few days, we've been mostly working on improving the mould-making process and on sculpting tons of different heads and expressions for the first wave (sculpting heads is a good sign, because that's usually one of the last step we do). More details about this in the upcoming update."
Raging Heroes
September 8
(Recopying from a conversation we had with some FB posters)
"Re the updates, we've already spent a few hours on one, it will be finished shortly, but don't get too excited yet, though, as the Big Update with all the pics will be the one after that... The BU will be released just a few days after the upcoming update, though, as we're nearly done with what we want to show you...
And yes, it is true that making 150 minis from scratch is really insane!!! But amazingly enough, we're moving forward really well, and are tracking pretty close to our plans.
These last few days, we've been mostly working on improving the mould-making process and on sculpting tons of different heads and expressions for the first wave (sculpting heads is a good sign, because that's usually one of the last step we do). More details about this in the upcoming update."
Making 150 minis from scratch? Didn't they claim to have 80% of all minis done sometime before the KS finished? This makes them sound like they've just been working on making 150 minis from the ground up since the KS finished. Guess this is why they were out until 5am -_-
Raging Heroes
September 8
(Recopying from a conversation we had with some FB posters)
"Re the updates, we've already spent a few hours on one, it will be finished shortly, but don't get too excited yet, though, as the Big Update with all the pics will be the one after that... The BU will be released just a few days after the upcoming update, though, as we're nearly done with what we want to show you...
And yes, it is true that making 150 minis from scratch is really insane!!! But amazingly enough, we're moving forward really well, and are tracking pretty close to our plans.
These last few days, we've been mostly working on improving the mould-making process and on sculpting tons of different heads and expressions for the first wave (sculpting heads is a good sign, because that's usually one of the last step we do). More details about this in the upcoming update."
Making 150 minis from scratch? Didn't they claim to have 80% of all minis done sometime before the KS finished? This makes them sound like they've just been working on making 150 minis from the ground up since the KS finished. Guess this is why they were out until 5am -_-
As Hulksmash joked and RH ran with, they meant they had all the models 80% done. So, they had everything but the heads, apparently, and that IS the most difficult piece to get right for a female model (just ask GW! They certainly haven't figured it out yet).
Honestly, if I'd put just a little less money into this KS, I'd probably have considered the buy in worth it to have the chance to see such an unintentionally hilarious trainwreck up-close.
As it is, every time they throw out another snide, smug, d***ish comment I just want to reach through my monitor and give them a slap round the chops.
BrookM wrote: It would be hilarious if the time spent off the grid was put into setting up the next campaign, but then, better than this one!
I don't think that word means what you think it means
Though, according to a PM conversation with RH, they haven't even started work on the pledge manager yet. So, even once all the first wave sculpts are done it'll still be a month or so for them to put together what they feel is a suitable pledge manager. Though given the nature of the campaign I'd expect this to be some walled garden within their existing online shop that you need a special account to see, rather than the Mierce one for Darklands. Then they'd just need some funky shipping options, for wave shipping and public / private drop ship. The latter will probably involve secret codes and fancy hand shakes to tie things together.
I think we can safely say that September is off the grid then and I'm back to my earlier musings about it being a Q1 2014 thing at the earliest then for wave 1. Love to be proven wrong though! In a good way mind!
Pity, no Imperial Navy army for some time to come then. Oh well, c'est la vie.
Raging Heroes
September 8
(Recopying from a conversation we had with some FB posters)
"Re the updates, we've already spent a few hours on one, it will be finished shortly, but don't get too excited yet, though, as the Big Update with all the pics will be the one after that... The BU will be released just a few days after the upcoming update, though, as we're nearly done with what we want to show you...
And yes, it is true that making 150 minis from scratch is really insane!!! But amazingly enough, we're moving forward really well, and are tracking pretty close to our plans.
These last few days, we've been mostly working on improving the mould-making process and on sculpting tons of different heads and expressions for the first wave (sculpting heads is a good sign, because that's usually one of the last step we do). More details about this in the upcoming update."
Though, according to a PM conversation with RH, they haven't even started work on the pledge manager yet. So, even once all the first wave sculpts are done it'll still be a month or so for them to put together what they feel is a suitable pledge manager. Though given the nature of the campaign I'd expect this to be some walled garden within their existing online shop that you need a special account to see, rather than the Mierce one for Darklands. Then they'd just need some funky shipping options, for wave shipping and public / private drop ship. The latter will probably involve secret codes and fancy hand shakes to tie things together.
Snark aside (and I love the fact that I have to specift when I'm not being snarky with this campaign), I don't have a lot of faith in RH being able to put together a pledge manager in "just" one month. Sure, they could use Backerkit or one of the pre-made ones, but I just don't see them going with an established solution when a drawn-out, more complex but personal one is possible...
I think that because they want to keep it dynamic will mean they'll have to do this in-house, as you and prankster said.
The worse part is, there is no polite or constructive way to say the following to them: You lied. You knew you were lying and you did it regardless. Either that, or you are not capable of handling the type of operation you set yourself up for, and you're going to take us all down with you.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: You lied. You knew you were lying and you did it regardless. Either that, or you are not capable of handling the type of operation you set yourself up for, and you're going to take us all down with you.
"Because we can! Or maybe we were lying to ourselves all along?"
In all seriousness, if they are still blown away by the final result then they are truly and wholly unprepared for something of this scale, despite all the claims of preparations and whatnot. This isn't a set of three or five minis but rather a whole lot more and the community is a wee bit more passionate and invested in this because you already have their money. I think in their desire to deliver the best of the best sculpts they adopted a tunnel vision and ignore everything else in favour of getting the important part right.
Also, I found this from the KS comments interesting:
At this time, I fear that TGG as a community united about an universe, figures, ... seems to fall in parts, or at least lost the dynamic the KS campaign have about three months ago.
And it's a problem if LnR want to do more than only a figures collection.
Think about some other successfull companies (doing good figures) : they have either a solid game ruleset or interesting "fluff"/art/stories to maintain a large fanbase.
Since we don't know anything about TGG ruleset (told to be "in the future"), "artistic" side would have been the way to feed the fans.
I'm refering to many things, but to the general as well. First off, we all knew that the original goal was a fallacy to make it look like they hit big. That can almost be forgiven given the egos we're dealing with.
To say that they weren't ready for those 150 minis is bollocks, to put it mildly. They had bandied that number about long before even the start of the campaign, the artwork was ready, they knew that was their goal all along. To have the trikes, puppies and jetgirls delayed would have been completely understandeable, as they were nowhere near the horizon at the beginning of the campaign.
Since they also knew that their sculpting method was so earth-shatteringly cool and complex, September was nothing but a pipe dream. It was fed to the community with 3D prints of (3, 4?) minis to make it believable, but I will say it, they never had the intention of having a finished product delivered and ready for sale by this month.
For the reasons above, mainly, I say they lied. And they had their heralds lie to us for them, hopefully diffusing the blame. Or cutting themselves off from it.
And to everyone telling us malcontents to just shut our mouths because the products will be gorgeous, I would like to submit two case studies for your consideration: 1)the test renders of the KST heavies, which didn't look like the artwork much and they seemed pretty confident about. Now there is no community feedback anymore. So allow me to remain sceptical. 2)Rackham. Gorgeous sculpts in metal, wonderful game, rich universe. "Oh look, we can make more money, let's release a game so vast all at once with "ok" sculpts, prepainted and not enough universe. Let's see if that will pull us under."
They are not in the boiler room, and we are not Wall Street. A fake bubble will implode pretty quickly.
Though, as true as it may be, it is rather...incendiary, and as KS Comments sections are...what they are, well, I'd expect that one to not be well received!
Aye, chances are the white knights and other assorted folk will simply tell you to go sit in the corner and be ashamed of yourself for even thinking something like that. Heaven forbid people having beef with the way things are run by people who have our money! Harrumph and all those other polite noises of disapproval.
I'm sure there'll be some people on there that agree with it.
Certainly, the points are valid and some of them have been brought up before, including whilst the KS was running.
They knew exactly what they were doing when they set the target at $12k and had all of the artwork put together. I think they also knew what they were doing with the changes to the stretch goals, setting them at a large interval early on to try and get more funds in and then switching to timed unlocks when things slowed down.
Mathieu, I agree with you wholeheartedly, and you articulate yourself very well, in English at least. I just wonder if it'll be worth the grief to post that on the KS page. I think I'm done with that comments section, and easing off a bit on some of dakka's ks threads also. For sure there'll be people wo agree with you, but there are just too many who'll annoy, frustrate, and anger you. And they'll be people who are nowhere near as articulate as yourself. This only adds to the anger. I know that we have every right to voice any and every concern/grievance/question that we have. I just don't know if its worth the hassle mate.
I'd say post it in English. The public posters at RH seem to have a good grasp of the language, and it'll make it easier for backers to understand it. Though I'm not sure RH would respond. They're busy sculpting / lost on the interwebs / responding to individuals via email / PM.
They need to seriously look at how they're going about what little communication they are doing. I'm sure they spend longer in a week with PM's/emails than it'd take to put out a project status update that answered the more general questions.
Wow! We don't know how it's been for you, but here, summer just flew by. We can't believe it's the beginning of September as we've been keeping our eyes firmly on our computer monitors all these past weeks...
We've been torn between waiting for the Big Update with many of the finished sculpts of the first wave that many of you are waiting for, and not leave you too long in the dark with no news... And so, even if the Big Update is nearly on hand, it's past time for some fresh news...
Non-linear workflow
First of all, we have to say that we are really happy with how things have been developing and progressing. It's a bit frustrating for us not to be able to show you the entire process, but we've developed our workflow in such a specific way now that it's becoming part of our trade secrets... As we've told you in a previous update, on top of sculpting the minis, we've been working very hard on making many things much more efficient, from the first steps of the sculpting process to the last moments of sorting and packing the minis.
We think it's very rare for a small company such as ours to have the opportunity to do so much applied research. Before the Kickstarter, we were always caught with having to pay the bills at the end of the month, and had no room to really dig into the roots of our workflow, try new options, and create something completely new. Truth be said, the workflow we've developed and implemented this summer is exactly the original vision Benoit had a few years ago when we started Raging Heroes. But at the time, it required too much resources and skills we did not yet have.
So, to make it short, we are pretty excited about this. We are now working very much more like a visual effects or video game studio, with very well-defined steps. This means that there is no longer one sculpting artist creating a miniature from start to finish. Each sculpt is now created by a full team, with each member working on the steps they are most talented for. It is great because each people brings his or her own quality and skills to all the sculpts, and since this is a collaborative process, no egos are bruised when we decide to change or improve some things. Overall, it significantly increases the quality of the sculpts. So, this is also the main reason why we cannot show you one finished sculpt after another, because most of the sculpts of the first wave will all end up being ready at the same moment (hence the upcoming Big Update).
We've also involved ourselves much more in the mould-making process, and this week's tests are showing that we should be able to fit up to twice as many miniatures per mould as originally planned. So, of course, this means quicker production time, which is a good thing given the volume of this Kickstarter. And we're also working on other secret-weapon techniques for casting...
Also, if things go as planned with the casting process, we could end up with nice little sprues that will greatly help with the picking and sorting (which means, again, faster production) and will help keep sorting errors to a minimum. And if these little sprues happen the way we want them to, they will be great to help you pick, choose and sort the various parts you want to use and make your mix-and-match process of the multipart units more pleasant.
Upcoming first wave
This has also a great impact on what the waves will be. Even at this time, it's hard to give you a definitive list of the Troops, Support and Heroines for each wave, because the workflow keeps on evolving and improving nearly every day, and so, it opens up new options for us. This new workflow is like a big locomotive: it started slowly, and was very demanding at the beginning, it pushed everybody here out of his/her comfort zone, but every day, it's picking up speed and is getting more efficient.
What it means for you is that the first wave might actually be larger than originally planned, although it will probably be available later in the Fall rather than earlier.
Right now, here is what COULD BE in the first wave:
all the Regular and Heavy Troops (both the Troops and the Command Boxes) for all 3 armies (so 50 different sculpts)
between 10 and 15 Heroines (which should include Cruz, Tanya, Bernadette, Mimi, Punky, Krüger, Hilda, Nepharyaa, Volga, Karmina, Aaqila, Drusilla)
Harry the Hippo
Possibly a few more Heroines
And maybe all the Artillery for all the 3 armies (this means 9 other box sets)
Again, please note that this is not a FIRM schedule, but we are doing everything we can to make all this part of the first wave. Depending on the sculpting workflow as well as the casting, we may end up releasing a slightly different selection of miniatures.
Sculpts
We know that what you are all waiting for images of the sculpts. We promise you that there will be PLENTY of them in the next update. As a matter of fact, as I am typing this, we are preparing most of them for their final output, so this means that you will see them very, very, soon. As explained above, most of the ones for Wave 1 will all be finished over the same few days, and will be featured in our upcoming Big Update. In the meantime, here are two sculpts that are completely finished: Harry the Hippo and one of the Jailbirds/KST artillery pieces.
Heavy weapons, specialists, etc.
During the Kickstarter, we asked you about the weapon options you would want for the Troops box, the Command Group box, and the Artillery for the Free Upgrades. We received plenty of answers and altered our original plans so they would meet with your needs and wishes as much as possible.
However, when the dust finally settled this summer, we realised that there might be some confusion on what each box and its options actually stand for. On one hand, the Artillery boxes contain Heavy Weapons mounted on a mobile platform/stands. In most games, these stands would most likely be tripods. On the other hand, the Heavy Weapons that come with the Troops and the Command Boxes are all hand-held weapons utilized by one soldier only rather than a team of 2 servants.
Because of this, we think that the weaponry options available in the Artillery box and the Troops/Command boxes might double up, and that's perhaps a bit of waste for you guys. Since there is already a rocket launcher and a gatling gun in the Artillery boxes, we're thinking that perhaps it would be better to replace these weapon options in the Command boxes by other accessories, such as alternate arms holding grenades, mines, binoculars, etc., or perhaps additional optional heads to provide variety (which could be cool, for example, if you're trying to get some Iron Empire units without helmets).
So, what do you think?
Also, just so you know, you can see very specific visuals for all the Artillery boxes at the bottom of the KS page (here and here. For the Command Boxes weaponry, see the Heavy guns that Cruz and Aaqila are holding as a reference for the Gatling gun (yes, we do know that's it's not really a Gatling gun, but we've been using that word for lack of a better name); and for the grenade launcher, look at the weapons held by Tanya Tanker or by Katrina Zerga.
We'll be waiting for your feedback on this issue.
New drop ship locations
Our Drop Ship Programme continues to expand.
New locations are listed below.
The complete listing is here.
And of course, new drop ship locations are welcome so if you know a retailer who might be interested in joining, or if you are a retailer yourself, please click here.
Canada (Montreal, Qc): Le Valet d'Coeur
United States (Georgia): Morningstar Games
United States (Louisiana): +1 Gaming
Germany (21- Buxtehude): Spielebutze Buxtehude
United States (New Jersey): Jester's Playhouse
United States (New York): The Compleat Strategist
Sweden (Stockholm): Arcane
Artbook
Regarding the Digital Artbook, we realized something very obvious that we completely missed when we wrote down the delivery date of this reward: If we make an artbook about a whole new line of minis, wouldn't it be nice that the Artbook also feature sculpts and minis, and not just the concept art? So we don't intend to keep you you waiting until we have sculpted each and every miniature, but at least we would like to feature some of them in the book.
We'd really like to take the Artbook as an opportunity to include and showcase the entire process of the creative work of making the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy, rather than stopping at the design part.
This also means that we'll be able to show you the sculpts in a different way than what we usually show on the website. For example, we may use the 3D renders of the sculpts to create illustrations, stage them in various settings, the way we did in our Kickstarter video:
The artbook will also include a few original illustrations and here's a sneak preview: Svetlana, the Freedom Fighter of the Kurgans (see her story here), running with the wereshewolves and rallying her followers.
Survey and Pledge Manager
In the next coming days, we will send you the Kickstarter survey. It will be very simple to make sure that you don't have agonize over what minis you need to choose and be able to answer us quickly. It will simply ask you for your detailed contact information. It will also ask you if you have chosen the 3D sculpting and art direction webinar, which is included in the Connoisseur Pledge and Add-on.
Regarding the Pledge Manager, well, many backers told us they wanted to see the first wave of minis before making their formal selection. So we focused on getting that first wave ready before putting the Pledge Manager together, which should be soon now. As for us, the quantities needed for each mini will in the end have little impact on production, so there is no need for us to know in advance how many of each is required: what takes a lot of time is sculpting and mould-making, but after that, casting is fairly swift.
3D Sculpting and Art Direction Webinar
The webinar will take place during the last weeks of September and the first weeks of October. It will most likely happen during a week-end, because we figure that this will be when most participants will be available.
Overall, the webinar will last 5 hours, divided in 2 sessions. Also, each session will be presented twice, which will provide flexibility in scheduling. In the case you cannot attend the seminar, you will be able to let us know and we will provide you access to a recording of the missed sessions.
The survey will ask you if you have chosen the webinar, which was available either as a pledge (the 3D SCULPTING WEBINAR and the CONNOISSEUR BOX) or as the CONNOISSEUR add-on, so that we can contact and book you.
Well, that's it for now...
We leave you with a taste of TGG Digital Artbook, the layout of a double-spread you'll find inside the book, just to give you a feel for how it will look like...
Wow! We don't know how it's been for you, but here, summer just flew by. We can't believe it's the beginning of September as we've been keeping our eyes firmly on our computer monitors all these past weeks...
We've been torn between waiting for the Big Update with many of the finished sculpts of the first wave that many of you are waiting for, and not leave you too long in the dark with no news... And so, even if the Big Update is nearly on hand, it's past time for some fresh news...
Non-linear workflow
First of all, we have to say that we are really happy with how things have been developing and progressing. It's a bit frustrating for us not to be able to show you the entire process, but we've developed our workflow in such a specific way now that it's becoming part of our trade secrets... As we've told you in a previous update, on top of sculpting the minis, we've been working very hard on making many things much more efficient, from the first steps of the sculpting process to the last moments of sorting and packing the minis.
We think it's very rare for a small company such as ours to have the opportunity to do so much applied research. Before the Kickstarter, we were always caught with having to pay the bills at the end of the month, and had no room to really dig into the roots of our workflow, try new options, and create something completely new. Truth be said, the workflow we've developed and implemented this summer is exactly the original vision Benoit had a few years ago when we started Raging Heroes. But at the time, it required too much resources and skills we did not yet have.
So, to make it short, we are pretty excited about this. We are now working very much more like a visual effects or video game studio, with very well-defined steps. This means that there is no longer one sculpting artist creating a miniature from start to finish. Each sculpt is now created by a full team, with each member working on the steps they are most talented for. It is great because each people brings his or her own quality and skills to all the sculpts, and since this is a collaborative process, no egos are bruised when we decide to change or improve some things. Overall, it significantly increases the quality of the sculpts. So, this is also the main reason why we cannot show you one finished sculpt after another, because most of the sculpts of the first wave will all end up being ready at the same moment (hence the upcoming Big Update).
We've also involved ourselves much more in the mould-making process, and this week's tests are showing that we should be able to fit up to twice as many miniatures per mould as originally planned. So, of course, this means quicker production time, which is a good thing given the volume of this Kickstarter. And we're also working on other secret-weapon techniques for casting...
Also, if things go as planned with the casting process, we could end up with nice little sprues that will greatly help with the picking and sorting (which means, again, faster production) and will help keep sorting errors to a minimum. And if these little sprues happen the way we want them to, they will be great to help you pick, choose and sort the various parts you want to use and make your mix-and-match process of the multipart units more pleasant.
Upcoming first wave
This has also a great impact on what the waves will be. Even at this time, it's hard to give you a definitive list of the Troops, Support and Heroines for each wave, because the workflow keeps on evolving and improving nearly every day, and so, it opens up new options for us. This new workflow is like a big locomotive: it started slowly, and was very demanding at the beginning, it pushed everybody here out of his/her comfort zone, but every day, it's picking up speed and is getting more efficient.
What it means for you is that the first wave might actually be larger than originally planned, although it will probably be available later in the Fall rather than earlier.
Right now, here is what COULD BE in the first wave: ◾all the Regular and Heavy Troops (both the Troops and the Command Boxes) for all 3 armies (so 50 different sculpts) ◾between 10 and 15 Heroines (which should include Cruz, Tanya, Bernadette, Mimi, Punky, Krüger, Hilda, Nepharyaa, Volga, Karmina, Aaqila, Drusilla) ◾Harry the Hippo ◾Possibly a few more Heroines ◾And maybe all the Artillery for all the 3 armies (this means 9 other box sets)
Again, please note that this is not a FIRM schedule, but we are doing everything we can to make all this part of the first wave. Depending on the sculpting workflow as well as the casting, we may end up releasing a slightly different selection of miniatures.
Sculpts
We know that what you are all waiting for images of the sculpts. We promise you that there will be PLENTY of them in the next update. As a matter of fact, as I am typing this, we are preparing most of them for their final output, so this means that you will see them very, very, soon. As explained above, most of the ones for Wave 1 will all be finished over the same few days, and will be featured in our upcoming Big Update. In the meantime, here are two sculpts that are completely finished: Harry the Hippo and one of the Jailbirds/KST artillery pieces.
Heavy weapons, specialists, etc.
During the Kickstarter, we asked you about the weapon options you would want for the Troops box, the Command Group box, and the Artillery for the Free Upgrades. We received plenty of answers and altered our original plans so they would meet with your needs and wishes as much as possible.
However, when the dust finally settled this summer, we realised that there might be some confusion on what each box and its options actually stand for. On one hand, the Artillery boxes contain Heavy Weapons mounted on a mobile platform/stands. In most games, these stands would most likely be tripods. On the other hand, the Heavy Weapons that come with the Troops and the Command Boxes are all hand-held weapons utilized by one soldier only rather than a team of 2 servants.
Because of this, we think that the weaponry options available in the Artillery box and the Troops/Command boxes might double up, and that's perhaps a bit of waste for you guys. Since there is already a rocket launcher and a gatling gun in the Artillery boxes, we're thinking that perhaps it would be better to replace these weapon options in the Command boxes by other accessories, such as alternate arms holding grenades, mines, binoculars, etc., or perhaps additional optional heads to provide variety (which could be cool, for example, if you're trying to get some Iron Empire units without helmets).
So, what do you think? Also, just so you know, you can see very specific visuals for all the Artillery boxes at the bottom of the KS page (here and here. For the Command Boxes weaponry, see the Heavy guns that Cruz and Aaqila are holding as a reference for the Gatling gun (yes, we do know that's it's not really a Gatling gun, but we've been using that word for lack of a better name); and for the grenade launcher, look at the weapons held by Tanya Tanker or by Katrina Zerga. We'll be waiting for your feedback on this issue.
New drop ship locations
Our Drop Ship Programme continues to expand. New locations are listed below. The complete listing is here.
And of course, new drop ship locations are welcome so if you know a retailer who might be interested in joining, or if you are a retailer yourself, please click here. ◾Canada (Montreal, Qc): Le Valet d'Coeur ◾United States (Georgia): Morningstar Games ◾United States (Louisiana): +1 Gaming ◾Germany (21- Buxtehude): Spielebutze Buxtehude ◾United States (New Jersey): Jester's Playhouse ◾United States (New York): The Compleat Strategist ◾Sweden (Stockholm): Arcane
Artbook
Regarding the Digital Artbook, we realized something very obvious that we completely missed when we wrote down the delivery date of this reward: If we make an artbook about a whole new line of minis, wouldn't it be nice that the Artbook also feature sculpts and minis, and not just the concept art? So we don't intend to keep you you waiting until we have sculpted each and every miniature, but at least we would like to feature some of them in the book.
We'd really like to take the Artbook as an opportunity to include and showcase the entire process of the creative work of making the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy, rather than stopping at the design part.
This also means that we'll be able to show you the sculpts in a different way than what we usually show on the website. For example, we may use the 3D renders of the sculpts to create illustrations, stage them in various settings, the way we did in our Kickstarter video:
The artbook will also include a few original illustrations and here's a sneak preview: Svetlana, the Freedom Fighter of the Kurgans (see her story here), running with the wereshewolves and rallying her followers.
Survey and Pledge Manager
In the next coming days, we will send you the Kickstarter survey. It will be very simple to make sure that you don't have agonize over what minis you need to choose and be able to answer us quickly. It will simply ask you for your detailed contact information. It will also ask you if you have chosen the 3D sculpting and art direction webinar, which is included in the Connoisseur Pledge and Add-on.
Regarding the Pledge Manager, well, many backers told us they wanted to see the first wave of minis before making their formal selection. So we focused on getting that first wave ready before putting the Pledge Manager together, which should be soon now. As for us, the quantities needed for each mini will in the end have little impact on production, so there is no need for us to know in advance how many of each is required: what takes a lot of time is sculpting and mould-making, but after that, casting is fairly swift.
3D Sculpting and Art Direction Webinar
The webinar will take place during the last weeks of September and the first weeks of October. It will most likely happen during a week-end, because we figure that this will be when most participants will be available.
Overall, the webinar will last 5 hours, divided in 2 sessions. Also, each session will be presented twice, which will provide flexibility in scheduling. In the case you cannot attend the seminar, you will be able to let us know and we will provide you access to a recording of the missed sessions.
The survey will ask you if you have chosen the webinar, which was available either as a pledge (the 3D SCULPTING WEBINAR and the CONNOISSEUR BOX) or as the CONNOISSEUR add-on, so that we can contact and book you.
Well, that's it for now...
We leave you with a taste of TGG Digital Artbook, the layout of a double-spread you'll find inside the book, just to give you a feel for how it will look like...
Note: To see all images above in larger size, please right click and choose 'open image in new tab'.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well the do explain why they can't show stuff (and it makes some sort of sense)
if they'd only said this earlier folk might be feeling more patient
Wow. Busy night in the thread. Lovely post, Mathieu.
If you do choose to post it, you should best do it in both. English to reach the backers, and French for the more direct factor, not to mention the fact that it adds another layer of depth to the whole thing, really.
There's plenty of information in that update, there just isn't any information you want.
Any way more on that in a second.
Whelp Mat laid a nice smack down in his comment above, and I heartily encourage him to post it to the KS in both French and English. (P.S. thanks Mat, I like the new image too, I felt it was about time for an Avatar change so I could stop antagonizing the GK players... visually any way)
For the update. Very nice, I really wish it'd been sent out say two weeks ago for the sake of others, I'm still feeling pretty chill about all this personally, but I don't have nearly as much money on the line as some people either. The update has told us what they're doing, how they're doing it and why things seem to be a bit emergent, broke down some interesting changes, particularly on the art book, as well as previewing it. I am now very much looking forward to the artbook and hope there is an option to acquire an IRL copy in the future instead of just the PDF. We'll see how the Big Update looks compared to this one and what all those sculpts end up looking like. I still haven't decided on if I want to do wave shipping or not yet, we'll see how far back in fall Wave 1 actually goes.
Sining wrote: So their workflow is so secretive that it's a trade secret?? What???
Indeed, that would have scared the living gak out of me, had I been a supporter. As far as I know, not even Games Workshop have attempted to claim that they've effectively invented a whole new realm of ultra effective project management techniques that the whole world isn't aware of.
That isn't what they said either. They also gave a general description of how they're working now and to my understanding both of the industry at large and just in a general sense, approaching individual minis as a group effort in the manner a gaming studio isn't exactly common if it's been done at all.
I also think you're giving a little too much weight to the term "Trade Secret" I've worked in many businesses and know more then a few trade secrets. They range in important from the formula for Coca-Cola or the spice blend in KFC chicken to some much smaller things then that, stuff you wouldn't even notice. All a trade secret is, is something related to the function of your business that you don't want to patent as patenting the idea would put it out in the world.
It's at times like this that I ponder the French sense of humor and their... eccentricities.
It's certainly a verbose update, I'll give them that. Unfortunately, as Kalashnikov points out, it manages the trick of being full of information yet conveying... not too darn much. One is also tempted to note that they have apparently developed a "workflow" that explains away the seemingly ludicrous notion that everything is partially finished. Not to say they are being dishonest, merely pointing out a happy co-incidence.
More important is the First wave listing (potential, that is);
all the Regular and Heavy Troops (both the Troops and the Command Boxes) for all 3 armies (so 50 different sculpts)
between 10 and 15 Heroines (which should include Cruz, Tanya, Bernadette, Mimi, Punky, Krüger, Hilda, Nepharyaa, Volga, Karmina, Aaqila, Drusilla)
Harry the Hippo
Possibly a few more Heroines
And maybe all the Artillery for all the 3 armies (this means 9 other box sets)
This would seem to read that the freebies are not all going to be ready in the first wave (understandable), which means there is no way to simply cash out with one shipment.
With regards to the art book, can I say fairly unambiguously that I find their proposed image;
Spoiler:
Substantially inferior to the previously shown concept art;
Spoiler:
There is just needless crap all over the image, plus it's been cropped and darkened. The moment I saw it I was put to mind of the re-releases of Star Wars, where Lucas seemed have confused "improved" with "shove crap onto the screen".
I'm really disappointed by this update. I'm still really optimistic about how all the models are going to look. I'm hoping they'll take me out to Mordor and still bring me home to the Shire, but I've started to become dismayed with the journey at this point. I'm feeling less and less sure that I'll ever see anything; depression is beginning to set it. I had hopes of getting in on their Dark Elves, but if I don't have minis in my hands by the time that Kickstarter goes off, I'm not going to be able to give them any more money on account.
Nevertheless, the sculpts looked pretty awesome. That gun came out way better looking than the concept art led me to believe it was going to, so that's a positive step.
And, if I'm being honest, this represents more informative, honest, and forthright communication than I get from Games Workshop, so there's that. Although that feels a little like someone saying "my wife is nicer to me than that guy who mugged me in an alley once, so she can't be all bad..."
I agree that the Nertha image was kind of lame, Buzzsaw, but the Svetlana/Werewolf one was wholly new, and rocked socks, no? I'm not really looking for anything impressive with this digital artbook, though. It's a digital book. If they wanted to do something cool or snazzy they would have printed it. I mean, a digital book might as well just be an album on Photobucket. Still, it's free, so I've got that to look forward to.
Well, regarding this update, this wasn't the one we were looking for, as they said, remember?
Many words but with not a lot of showing for it. Oh well, at least they more or less said that it won't be September, but instead later this Fall (maybe).
Biggest sad for me.. No Wolfenstein in ze first wave, zut alors!
Whilst it's good to see an update, I still don't see why they've waited this long before posting something that's still image light. The information in it could have easily been split into several smaller updates to be posted over the past few weeks. Keeps them involved in things and reassures backers that are getting a bit restless with the lack of information.
Content wise, the only thing I'm not overly joyous about is the potential for them stripping options out of the command box on the suggestion that people don't like duplication. Sure, they have the tripod mounted weapons, but when you're looking at a large number of heavy weapons there's more duplication in having 3 missile launcher tripods in a unit than having three individually posed multi-part figures carrying missile launchers stood with three other individually posed figures.
AlexHolker wrote: The crew-served weapons are ugly and expensive. I wouldn't consider them an adequate substitute for the ones we were promised for the command kits.
Indeed, and what about people who were planning to order the command sets but not the heavy weapon sets? Now they would just get a few extra random bitz in place of useful gaming models?
Meh, it's been said already but bears repeating; this is the kind of fluff update that should have been coming out every couple of weeks since the end of the KS. Still, it's better than the big fat nothin' we've been getting so far.
And, if I'm being honest, this represents more informative, honest, and forthright communication than I get from Games Workshop, so there's that. Although that feels a little like someone saying "my wife is nicer to me than that guy who mugged me in an alley once, so she can't be all bad..."
To be fair, GW doesn't take your $$ before you know exactly what you're ordering, nor do they need that upfront money to create the new product.....
Mathieu Raymond just now
Personnellement, et je sais que je parle au nom d'au moins un petit groupe, je préférerais garder les armes telles le lance-missile, les mitrailleuses, dans les boites d'infanterie, plutôt qu'uniquement dans les boîtes d'artillerie.
It says that I think I can speak for a few that we'd prefer heavy weapons to still be part of the infantry boxes, rather than an all artillery product.
Sining wrote:So their workflow is so secretive that it's a trade secret?? What???
That's hilarious. Ego at work here.
Video game and toy industries have been using that workflow for decades. I'm pretty sure GW has been for more than a few years now as well.
cincydooley wrote:They don't seem to have a clue about project management, quite frankly.
Yet another reason to be glad I decided to stay out of this one. Between this and the attitude I would be looking for a refund (which I may not have been able to get, I understand).
Ouze wrote:
I think those are sculpts, not renders. Not the sculpts we really wanted to see, albeit.
Renders are just prettied up versions of the sculpt. Renders include things like multiple lights and shadows, whereas the sculpting environment does not. These are definitely renders.
I get a definite KalashnikovMarine vibe off the writing style.
This would have been great fluff as a sidebar in, say, a rulebook. I think you put your finger on it, Cincydooley. Our resentment at RH stops us from seeing it for what it is.
Yodhrin wrote: Honestly, if I'd put just a little less money into this KS, I'd probably have considered the buy in worth it to have the chance to see such an unintentionally hilarious trainwreck up-close.
It is definitely more entertaining (as opposed to distressing) for those of us who have not put money in (or put in very little), I think
Ouze wrote:I think those are sculpts, not renders. Not the sculpts we really wanted to see, albeit.
Renders are just prettied up versions of the sculpt. Renders include things like multiple lights and shadows, whereas the sculpting environment does not. These are definitely renders.
They were just digital representations, not physical models, right? It would be really good if companies would stop adding bases to digital views and shadows, as if they were real items, as it's quite confusing...
(Of course, if these are physical 3d prints, my apologies, but they look digital to me)
BrookM wrote: I think it was written by one of our own, a fellow Dakka Dakka member. There is a second story, which has also been written by one of our own.
Hmm... Well that makes me come off as more of an internet asshat than I intended, but I think that, perhaps, they should vet the work more before they publish it as "official." I mean, there's good pulp, and then there's meh pulp. I'm not expecting Dickens here, but ... I mean.. yeah....
Should I perhaps be insulted here? Especially given the above implication that the author gargles raging balls? I certainly have voiced my own grievances in this thread even if I am doing my level best to be a reasonable voice and not fall into the "extremely torqued off" or "gargling raging balls" camps. For the record I have written a small piece of TGG fan fiction. It is not that story. If it had been I might have been a little upset because I didn't see an author credit. Fanart thought it may be, I do like when they ask me before they reprint something I put some time into. Just like if someone wants to use a photo of one of my painted minis, or one of my actual photos.
Ouze wrote:I think those are sculpts, not renders. Not the sculpts we really wanted to see, albeit.
Renders are just prettied up versions of the sculpt. Renders include things like multiple lights and shadows, whereas the sculpting environment does not. These are definitely renders.
They were just digital representations, not physical models, right? It would be really good if companies would stop adding bases to digital views and shadows, as if they were real items, as it's quite confusing...
(Of course, if these are physical 3d prints, my apologies, but they look digital to me)
They were digital representations, yes.
Anytime you hear/see someone refer to a "render" they are talking about a processed image of a 3d model/sculpt that allows the creator to make beauty shots (for lack of a better way to put it) of their 3d model/sculpt. The software adds all the lighting, coloring, and texture effects and renders a finished image.
At this juncture it is basically only when you hear about "prints" that a physical object is being discussed.
Should I perhaps be insulted here? Especially given the above implication that the author gargles raging balls? I certainly have voiced my own grievances in this thread even if I am doing my level best to be a reasonable voice and not fall into the "extremely torqued off" or "gargling raging balls" camps. For the record I have written a small piece of TGG fan fiction. It is not that story. If it had been I might have been a little upset because I didn't see an author credit. Fanart thought it may be, I do like when they ask me before they reprint something I put some time into. Just like if someone wants to use a photo of one of my painted minis, or one of my actual photos.
AlexHolker wrote: The crew-served weapons are ugly and expensive. I wouldn't consider them an adequate substitute for the ones we were promised for the command kits.
Indeed, and what about people who were planning to order the command sets but not the heavy weapon sets? Now they would just get a few extra random bitz in place of useful gaming models?
Meh, it's been said already but bears repeating; this is the kind of fluff update that should have been coming out every couple of weeks since the end of the KS. Still, it's better than the big fat nothin' we've been getting so far.
Well, get onto the comments for the update and feed it back to them there, guys! I know I did as soon as it hit my mailbox.
Taarnak, I know what a render is, I make them at my job frequently . I think they should say "digital sculpt" or "render" to be clear that it is not physical, if they're adding a base, shadows, etc. As you saw, a poster here thought it was a physical item, and I'm sure they're not alone.
RiTides wrote: Taarnak, I know what a render is, I make them at my job frequently . I think they should say "digital sculpt" or "render" to be clear that it is not physical, if they're adding a base, shadows, etc. As you saw, a poster here thought it was a physical item, and I'm sure they're not alone.
Sorry bud, thought I was addressing Ouze again. Guess I should pay better attention to that, heh. Out of curiosity, what do you do?
But you are absolutely correct, they should make a distinction. Many folks who are not familiar with the digital sculpting process probably are unsure what they are looking at.
Should I perhaps be insulted here? Especially given the above implication that the author gargles raging balls? I certainly have voiced my own grievances in this thread even if I am doing my level best to be a reasonable voice and not fall into the "extremely torqued off" or "gargling raging balls" camps. For the record I have written a small piece of TGG fan fiction. It is not that story. If it had been I might have been a little upset because I didn't see an author credit. Fanart thought it may be, I do like when they ask me before they reprint something I put some time into. Just like if someone wants to use a photo of one of my painted minis, or one of my actual photos.
They were credited according to their Kickstarter username, because I wasn't sure if they wanted their real name published online. (That's why there's a caveat above it about altering the post to include the user's real name.) I can always go back (and am totally willing to go back) and credit it appropriately to the author's real name. I can NOT go back and remove their real name from the internet, on the off chance that they have an aversion to that sort of thing.
Jimsolo wrote: They were credited according to their Kickstarter username, because I wasn't sure if they wanted their real name published online. (That's why there's a caveat above it about altering the post to include the user's real name.) I can always go back (and am totally willing to go back) and credit it appropriately to the author's real name. I can NOT go back and remove their real name from the internet, on the off chance that they have an aversion to that sort of thing.
Apologies, I'm a little confused; GeeklyDevotionals is your (Jimsolo's) site, I presume? So the initiative is just a fan effort to collect the fiction that posters had put up, right? By that I mean that this is in no way connected on an official level to RH.
Jimsolo wrote: They were credited according to their Kickstarter username, because I wasn't sure if they wanted their real name published online. (That's why there's a caveat above it about altering the post to include the user's real name.) I can always go back (and am totally willing to go back) and credit it appropriately to the author's real name. I can NOT go back and remove their real name from the internet, on the off chance that they have an aversion to that sort of thing.
Apologies, I'm a little confused; GeeklyDevotionals is your (Jimsolo's) site, I presume? So the initiative is just a fan effort to collect the fiction that posters had put up, right? By that I mean that this is in no way connected on an official level to RH.
I'm part of the Geekly Devotionals crew, yes. And it is indeed an effort to bring together all the fiction published for the Kickstarter. (I hate the term fanfiction. I feel like I need a shower after I even say it. ) And no, Raging Heroes has not officially sanctioned this in any way.
Aye, my actual Kickstarter name is Den aka MDS (Morathi's Darkest Sin) That would be the preferred way I'd like myself listed.
Also tbh I didn't expect anyone to like it, it was written in twenty odd minutes at work totally spur of the moment, but I got quite a few positive remarks and messages. Then Raging Heroes themselves put in an update even though it was in no way official, so I wrote a couple more.
Obviously no one should be expecting publishable level work there, it was just me having some fun.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote: Aye, my actual Kickstarter name is Den aka MDS (Morathi's Darkest Sin) That would be the preferred way I'd like myself listed.
Also tbh I didn't expect anyone to like it, it was written in twenty odd minutes at work totally spur of the moment, but I got quite a few positive remarks and messages. Then Raging Heroes themselves put in an update even though it was in no way official, so I wrote a couple more.
Obviously no one should be expecting publishable level work there, it was just me having some fun.
Oh and aye, the fact quite a few people liked it spurred me on to throw in a few more. I was just surprised as I did throw it together it quite a haphazard manner.
Gives me some confidence regarding work I actually plan out, rewrite fifty odd times etc.
Female werewolves were one of the places I definitely didn't see this Kickstarter going, but I'm totally glad it did. I'd like to get some later on. (I didn't have room in my pledge to be able to squeeze them in.)
Doing every 2-3 days, hopefully, assuming my personal life doesn't interfere. There was a big delay while I waited for a response for one of the authors, but I finally got it from them early last week, and the update provided a really good launching point for the stories.
Just a quick update to let you know how things are going.
As you can see on the image above, our planning schedule for the first wave is getting greener and greener!
All the TROOPS boxes for the Iron Empire Heavy and Regular Troops as well as the Kurganova Shock Troops Heavy and Regular are done.
We are putting the final touches to the Jailbirds' Troops box.
And we are very close to finishing all the Command Group boxes as well.
As soon as the Jailbirds' Troops are finished, we will show you all 25 miniatures from the Troops Boxes, + a couple of extras, so that each army gets some love
Not far behind will come the 25 miniatures from the Command Groups.
And after that, we will be finalising all the Heroines planned for the first wave.
However, because we're sure you are as impatient as we are, we are going to post the images of the 25 Troops sculpts as soon as they're all done, rather than wait for the Command Groups and the Heroines and do one Big Update!
Heavy Weapons in the Command Group boxes
In the last update, we asked you about the sets of Heavy Weapons options that should be available in the Command Boxes. We were wondering if some of them would not double-up with what is available in the Artillery boxes.
From your many replies, it appears obvious that you prefer to have as many weapons as possible in the kits, so that's what we'll be doing.
However, just so you know, we do intend to release extra bits for customising your Troops even further with new heads and accessories. Nothing's carved in stone yet, though; we'll most likely wait for your feedback once you've seen the Troops and Supports to assess what are the most wanted additional parts that we could create.
Survey
You are about to receive an initial survey for the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Kickstarter. It will take you less than one minute to complete. We will use this info to later on send you the Pledge Manager.
The Pledge Manager, as we mentioned before, will come in a few weeks, after you see the sculpts for the minis that are included in the First Wave.
So, at this point in time, we just need to know your contact information. We'll also assess if you're eligible for the Sculpting and Art Direction webinar which was available either as a pledge (the 3D SCULPTING WEBINAR and the CONNOISSEUR BOX) or as the CONNOISSEUR add-on, so that we can contact and book you. And finally, we'll ask if you also pledged on the Paypal page so that we can begin to match the Kickstarter and Paypal pledges of those who did.
By the way, if you have only pledged via Paypal, we already have your contact info. We will however contact the eligible pledges to determine if and/or confirm that they are to be part of the Webinar.
Wave Shipping
We know that many of you want to be able to get their miniatures as soon as they become available, even if they cannot have access to a Drop Ship location. Well, we got you covered: the upcoming Pledge Manager will allow you to choose partial shipments, and will let you know very precisely what the additional fee for this will be for this.
So, we'll be talking again shortly. Get ready to see some kick-ass ladies very very soon!
shamikebab wrote: If all these things are finished, then why not show us some pics?
Because they are allergic to good PR? Even without trying to do right by their creditors, you'd think they'd at least possess an artist's desire to show off a completed work.
BrookM wrote: So, it's going to be the next update we should really be looking forward to then? Will be interesting to hear when the characters will happen.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, from their Facebook in reply a request for a bigger picture:
we talk about the images in the update, images are coming soon...
They're being overly obtuse. I want a better view of the spreadsheet. I know I won't get pictures of the minis until I can vote with my wallet not my relatively constructive critical thinking skills.
So, no larger (meaningful) version of the image from this update is going to appear, going on the response someone received in the standard comments section.
On the other hand, it does look like the KS survey is finally going out. All be it to just capture name / contact detail informations so that they can run the full pledge manager.
prankster wrote: Yeah, a few people have asked to see a larger version. Kind of surprising that they didn't put one up as part of the update.
Though I've a feeling it'll be classed as 'trade secrets' so they'll not show us the actual headings that make the green cells meaningful.
I can't even be bothered taking the piss out of them this time. It really does seem like they're trololling us with the unreadable spreadsheet, though.
Raging, what about putting a higher res img of the progress chart on your web page news?
Creator Loud'n Raging about 4 hours ago ...
@David Wilkewitz: I couldn't get the OK for that :(
Creator Loud'n Raging about 4 hours ago ...
Column headings, unfortunately, I'm not allowed to share (as they concern our workflow and is confidential).
Whaaaaa?
Who is looking to scoop their workflow system? They aren't making the Colonel's secret recipe here, they're a niche within a niche within a niche and a... 4th(?*) tier company at that. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it's hard to imagine they actually have anything... well, anything really worth stealing in this regard.
*That is, if one considers GW the first tier (which would seem indisputable), the second tier consisting of PP, perhaps Reaper and then a third tier of companies (including some that that flit in and out of the second tier) such as Wyrd, Mantic, Corvus Bell and MERCs, then finally fourth tier where you get companies like RH, DFG/Wargames factories, CHS and so on. Below even them I suppose we can place the solos like Red Box, Bombshell and so on.
Raging, what about putting a higher res img of the progress chart on your web page news?
Creator Loud'n Raging about 4 hours ago ...
@David Wilkewitz: I couldn't get the OK for that :(
Creator Loud'n Raging about 4 hours ago ...
Column headings, unfortunately, I'm not allowed to share (as they concern our workflow and is confidential).
Whaaaaa?
Who is looking to scoop their workflow system? They aren't making the Colonel's secret recipe here, they're a niche within a niche within a niche and a... 4th(?*) tier company at that. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it's hard to imagine they actually have anything... well, anything really worth stealing in this regard.
*That is, if one considers GW the first tier (which would seem indisputable), the second tier consisting of PP, perhaps Reaper and then a third tier of companies (including some that that flit in and out of the second tier) such as Wyrd, Mantic, Corvus Bell and MERCs, then finally fourth tier where you get companies like RH, DFG/Wargames factories, CHS and so on. Below even them I suppose we can place the solos like Red Box, Bombshell and so on.
It's funny, because I can fix "super secret column headers" in about 2 minutes using MSPaint...
Why bother posting a low-res spreadsheet image, without bothering to censor any of it even at low res, and then say you can't post a hi-res version later? And they have someone in studio that can do graphics for all the updates, pictures, etc, but editing a screenshot of a spreadsheet is too much...
I'm pretty much just waiting on pictures of models at this point, and RH can spin their PR however they want. As long as the end product is quality, I could care less what the people behind the miniatures are doing or saying.
The thing that really gets me is I don't think they appreciate the delicate line they need to walk with the public. They are forming a relationship with thousands of people at once, one which can go in very different directions based on the smallest things.
Heck, all you need to do is look at the difference in attitudes between two projects, both of which went way over their initial estimates and both of which ran/are running late; Sedition Wars versus Kingdom Death.
Now, I won't go so far as to say that the only salient difference between these two campaigns is the communications, but certainly there has been a marked difference in the quality and quantity of communications between the two campaigns. If Poots had simply come out and said "Sorry guys, going to be late", it would have been explosive. But he presented a compelling explanations, and further, that announcement was in the context of many, many updates brimming with content. So even when getting bad news, KD discussions are (predominantly) positive.
By contrast Sedition Wars is finally winding down... and the overall feeling seems to be a rather muted disappointment, bordering on sadness.
Heck, check out the announcement from SPM about the delay for Relic Knights; scroll up and down from that post to see how the poor handling of that announcement totally flushed the mood of that thread (and on the campaign itself the tension was... less suppressed).
My point in all this is that these companies have an amazing opportunity to have a relationship with their customers here. They have a captive audience, an audience that wants to hear the creators talk about how great they are. Yet for all that, RH seems to be determined to antagonize the people that backed them.
And not to engage in any doomsaying, but does anyone else imagine RH moping their brows now that Dark Elves have been confirmed for release?
Holy crap, this is getting actively hilarious. What the hell is a company with a super-secret, ultra-confidential work flow doing running a minis company. Why not hire out as consultants and actually make money? I just don't have words. That is one doozy of an arse-pull. And to keep hammering on it like they are...
Man, I'm sorry to those that backed it. This must be a bit frustrating. But the way they are mishandling it is bloody high comedy at this point.
I hope you guys end up getting your product, but just seeing what new excuse RH can pull out of the hat is amusing and feeds my hunger for schadenfreude (at the expense of RH, not their backers; I feel bad that you guys got saddled with this turd sandwich of a campaign).
I look forward to their next "update". Perhaps they will post ultra zoomed-in photos of the minis and play "guess what it is?" with those playing at home? Or would that reveal too much of their work flow? I wonder if the things posted to their tumblr account are really just them playing Nth dimensional work-flowgistics with their superior brains.
Keep it fresh RH! Show the minis industry how to troll away any and all good will!
I got my survey thing for the address and contact info today. The rest of you will probably be getting yours soon as well.
Honestly, the stuff they've been pulling hasn't bothered me at all. I backed at the $15 level and wasn't expecting them to get anything out in a timely manner anyway. Hell, I backed late in the game anyway after they started mishandling things, so I knew what I was getting into. And if they pull an Avatars of War, though I doubt they will, at least in all I'm only down $20.
Though, it is pretty stupid to have their workflow be so secretive, but post a picture of it in the update. Why even bother showing that in the first place?
Oh, I got the update in my inbox. Because I'm a Raging Heroes Supporter. Which is slightly shameful. But having said that, it's less shameful than being a Sedition Wars supporter.... ...which I also am.
And not to engage in any doomsaying, but does anyone else imagine RH moping their brows now that Dark Elves have been confirmed for release?
Yeah, it would clearly be of concern to them. On the other hand, anything that makes them rethink again or even bin their lofty plans for three kickstarters in 2013 is a good thing.
So I had a pretty long conversation with some of the RH team, and I do have an answer for you guys as far as where the heck the WIPs are.
"Because we are working on all the Troops soldiers at the same time. Instead of working on one soldier at a time and taking her to the finish line, we are pushing the entire squadron forward inch by inch. So most of the WIPs we would issue would be totally misleading: the details that most backers would focus on are only fixed in the end, such as an ugly face (we prepare the heads separately and put them on at the end), too big boobs (for example, we do all the sculpts and then make changes once we place them all side by side to ensure continuity and consistency), wrong weapons (we often use the same weapon for all the minis as 'place-holders', and switch to the correct weapons for each individual mini on the last days), etc. So you can imagine the number of comments, complaints, scare, and worse we'd have to deal with if we were to show such WIPs. We just don't have the manpower to handle it. Plus, many of those worries are groundless, because all these issues are planned to be fixed in the end anyway."
They had thought this had been explained in a prior update when they initially talked about their non-linear work flow.
You know, that makes a bit of sense and, on the wip issue at least, you can sort of understand where they're coming from here, whether people agree with their thoughts on it or not. Thanks for posting.
alanmckenzie wrote: You know, that makes a bit of sense and, on the wip issue at least, you can sort of understand where they're coming from here, whether people agree with their thoughts on it or not. Thanks for posting.
Nope. Still a load of bs. Especially lol-worthy is the whole "trade secret" sculpting process. Makes me laugh every time.
Sooooooooo glad I didn't give these fools money, especially after the Sedition Wars burn I'm feeling.
Alpharius wrote: Yeah, they still don't 'get it', but at this point, that is not surprising at all.
I suppose I'm not tracking either, care to explain? Small words mate, I'm a Marine remember. I will of course pass on anything you want me to to the RH team. We had a pretty productive conversation today and I'm ready to fill their inbox with feedback.
alanmckenzie wrote: You know, that makes a bit of sense and, on the wip issue at least, you can sort of understand where they're coming from here, whether people agree with their thoughts on it or not. Thanks for posting.
Nope. Still a load of bs. Especially lol-worthy is the whole "trade secret" sculpting process. Makes me laugh every time.
Sooooooooo glad I didn't give these fools money, especially after the Sedition Wars burn I'm feeling.
~Eric
I didn't see any reference to a trade secret sculpting process there, so I guess I'll just write this off as vitriol for vitriol's sake.
alanmckenzie wrote: You know, that makes a bit of sense and, on the wip issue at least, you can sort of understand where they're coming from here, whether people agree with their thoughts on it or not. Thanks for posting.
Nope. Still a load of bs. Especially lol-worthy is the whole "trade secret" sculpting process. Makes me laugh every time.
Sooooooooo glad I didn't give these fools money, especially after the Sedition Wars burn I'm feeling.
~Eric
I was just saying that it is, at the very least, a comprehensible explanation of their reluctance to show wips. That's all. Not saying I agree with their stance, or even that I necessarily believe them. And it goes nowhere towards explaining any of the other many issues surrounding this ks. But it is something.
I didn't see any reference to a trade secret sculpting process there, so I guess I'll just write this off as vitriol for vitriol's sake.
I was referring back to the teeny tiny spreadsheet that time. No vitriol though. They sure as hell aren't important enough for that. I do like to poke at this particular bear every now and again tough, and here is why: You folks, as Kickstarter backers, have floated these fools a gigantic, interest-free loan. Yes you are technically donating, I get that. But look at it this way: If they had gotten a loan for this money for a bank, they would have likely needed to put up some hefty collateral, firstly. Secondly, they would at the very least likely have to be making repayments at this point. Then there is the fact that they would be paying interest; a lot of it.
So, in exchange for your no-interest loan you are owed, at minimum, regular progress reports and a look at what you have been paying for. Until more accountability is demanded by us, as Kickstarter "consumers" we will have more bs like RH has given, and total screw ups like the Mantic Basilean Man-at-Arms figures.
Also, the very notion that they have invented something new with digital sculpting is hilariously out of touch.
Nothing against, or meant towards you sir. Hope you didn't take it that way.
I was just saying that it is, at the very least, a comprehensible explanation of their reluctance to show wips. That's all. Not saying I agree with their stance, or even that I necessarily believe them. And it goes nowhere towards explaining any of the other many issues surrounding this ks. But it is something.
Fair enough, but it is also something they could easily deal with by blacking out the non-good bits in Photoshop. Likely in a fraction of the time it takes them to write snarky, condescending replies to the requests for updates. And surely it would be easy to fit in around all the Tumblr-time?
I have to say, although obviously the complaints are totally 100% valid, things like this do make me a little hesitant about using Kickstarter. I've been working on a board game and had considered using it when it was ready to be produced, to hopefully raise funds for the initial run, or for molding, etc (although it'd be nice to have molding done beforehand).
But the more I see things like this, the more I almost think it's better to take a loan, work on it behind the scenes, and then have something awesome to reveal to folks who can then purchase it shortly afterwards.
Obviously, some projects just aren't possible without something like KS because the person wouldn't qualify for the loan needed... and also obviously, a lot of the negative press can be avoided with good communication. But it's still a cautionary tale for me, so I'm watching these things with a lot of interest to learn what to do and not to do in running a campaign! And also, whether it makes sense to even run one, or to go with a traditional funding route, when the time comes.
/Kickstarters as related to gaming companies tangent
KalashnikovMarine wrote: So I had a pretty long conversation with some of the RH team, and I do have an answer for you guys as far as where the heck the WIPs are.
"Because we are working on all the Troops soldiers at the same time. Instead of working on one soldier at a time and taking her to the finish line, we are pushing the entire squadron forward inch by inch. So most of the WIPs we would issue would be totally misleading: the details that most backers would focus on are only fixed in the end, such as an ugly face (we prepare the heads separately and put them on at the end), too big boobs (for example, we do all the sculpts and then make changes once we place them all side by side to ensure continuity and consistency), wrong weapons (we often use the same weapon for all the minis as 'place-holders', and switch to the correct weapons for each individual mini on the last days), etc. So you can imagine the number of comments, complaints, scare, and worse we'd have to deal with if we were to show such WIPs. We just don't have the manpower to handle it. Plus, many of those worries are groundless, because all these issues are planned to be fixed in the end anyway."
They had thought this had been explained in a prior update when they initially talked about their non-linear work flow.
Try as I might to avoid belittling them, this seems almost comical in how they are going about doing things. They may call it "non-linear workflow", it would seem better to say "insulated workflow". That is, rather then allow for the public to see and critique the organic creative process, they are managing exposure in such a way that either a) everything is perfect (which they seem to be counting on), or b) they are going to present their final, polished versions of everything all at once... and be hit with a tidal wave of criticism because no single element was subject to criticism beforehand.
It's almost amusing how they are going about this: rather then accept criticism in iterative waves, they are inviting criticism on all elements at the same time. Which is doubly foolish given their seeming complete emotional disintegration when presented with criticism in an earlier instance.
Of course, there is another, even more likely (and yet annoying) possibility: that what will be presented is what will be, with no real opportunity for criticism to be taken. That would seem to be the only logical reason to manage your workflow in the way they are currently doing it.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: We had a pretty productive conversation today and I'm ready to fill their inbox with feedback.
Can you ask them when the characters will pop up?
Heroines are planned to pop up quite regularly once the Troops are done. Many are virtually done and just need finishing touches like weapons and faces. So once the trooper update's out of the way, we should start moving right along quite regularly. (Hopefully.)
KalashnikovMarine wrote: So I had a pretty long conversation with some of the RH team, and I do have an answer for you guys as far as where the heck the WIPs are.
"Because we are working on all the Troops soldiers at the same time. Instead of working on one soldier at a time and taking her to the finish line, we are pushing the entire squadron forward inch by inch. So most of the WIPs we would issue would be totally misleading: the details that most backers would focus on are only fixed in the end, such as an ugly face (we prepare the heads separately and put them on at the end), too big boobs (for example, we do all the sculpts and then make changes once we place them all side by side to ensure continuity and consistency), wrong weapons (we often use the same weapon for all the minis as 'place-holders', and switch to the correct weapons for each individual mini on the last days), etc. So you can imagine the number of comments, complaints, scare, and worse we'd have to deal with if we were to show such WIPs. We just don't have the manpower to handle it. Plus, many of those worries are groundless, because all these issues are planned to be fixed in the end anyway."
They had thought this had been explained in a prior update when they initially talked about their non-linear work flow.
Try as I might to avoid belittling them, this seems almost comical in how they are going about doing things. They may call it "non-linear workflow", it would seem better to say "insulated workflow". That is, rather then allow for the public to see and critique the organic creative process, they are managing exposure in such a way that either a) everything is perfect (which they seem to be counting on), or b) they are going to present their final, polished versions of everything all at once... and be hit with a tidal wave of criticism because no single element was subject to criticism beforehand.
It's almost amusing how they are going about this: rather then accept criticism in iterative waves, they are inviting criticism on all elements at the same time. Which is doubly foolish given their seeming complete emotional disintegration when presented with criticism in an earlier instance.
Of course, there is another, even more likely (and yet annoying) possibility: that what will be presented is what will be, with no real opportunity for criticism to be taken. That would seem to be the only logical reason to manage your workflow in the way they are currently doing it.
Not even... if I may build on your analysis? If they really wanted to invite community constructive criticism. Has anyone here been around during the Warzone KS? Aside from Ronin and Taarnak, I mean. They worked on squads as a unit, tweaking stuff not mini by mini, but on the whole group at the same time. They also had placeholder items, and missing details. And guess what? We commented, they changed stuff and the minis turned out really nice. YMMV of course, but that workflow just sounds exactly like RH is doing it, and if it's so earth-shattering in their minds, it may say something about their narcissism, rather than their real, objective genius. Yeah, I said it, you can call me out on it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And again, KalashnikovMarine: I have nothing but the utmost respect for you man, I don,t want any of this to be even misconstrued as being aimed at you. And you and the other RHeralds are quite courageous in doing your job, good apple or bad apple.
We good dude, I don't think anyone's tried to shoot the messenger yet. Not like it'd do any good any way, I have approximately 0% more influence on RH then any other backer.
There is an episode of Gordon Ramsay where he goes to Amy's Baking Company. You can watch the full episode here for free if you like, and I'd recommend you do so because it's very entertaining even if you do not watch these sorts of shows, as I myself do not.
Although there are many, many issues on display here, one of the really crucial ones is that the chef, Amy, has previously thrown a huge fit when anyone tells her something was wrong with the cooking. As a result, no one wants to give her any negative feedback, and the cooking suffers because she isn't aware there is a problem at all.
I wonder if the PR people - I'm being generous here and assuming there is a team member who does so - find communications with the actual team so difficult some of the data gets massaged. I mean, this is wholly speculation, but in the absence of anything tangible I think we can profitably engage in speculation, right?
I'm interested to see how the models play out, but I'm not thinking they are going to show us the models, then go back and change them based on feedback. I think the next reveal is probably going to be what we get. While there's been a few instances where they have gone different routes than I would have, I think that the RH team has taken criticism, and more importantly, been willing to alter their game plan in favor of what their customers want, more so than any other gaming company I've ever had dealings with.
Jimsolo wrote: , I think that the RH team has taken criticism, and more importantly, been willing to alter their game plan in favor of what their customers want, more so than any other gaming company I've ever had dealings with.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: We had a pretty productive conversation today and I'm ready to fill their inbox with feedback.
Can you ask them when the characters will pop up?
Heroines are planned to pop up quite regularly once the Troops are done. Many are virtually done and just need finishing touches like weapons and faces. So once the trooper update's out of the way, we should start moving right along quite regularly. (Hopefully.)
From the updates we last saw there will be heroines in wave one. I'd imagine we'll be seeing them spread across all three waves. (If it is indeed three waves) I'll make sure to ask, but I probably won't be able to get you guys any details, I'll push for info in that direction (an outline of what is being scheduled for what wave that is) for das uber update though.
Jimsolo wrote: , I think that the RH team has taken criticism, and more importantly, been willing to alter their game plan in favor of what their customers want, more so than any other gaming company I've ever had dealings with.
Sarcasm?
No, quite genuine. I've actually NEVER seen a game company give two farts about the feedback they got before. (Certainly never any feedback I've been a part of.) Any feedback I've ever participated in has gotten either a complete cold shoulder (like from Games Workshop) or a 'thanks for buying our merchandise, now piss off' form letter (like White Wolf). The fact that RH has made any alterations, ever, at all, puts them ahead of the pack in my own personal experience. Obviously everyone else has had some different experiences.
Pffft, it still pales in comparison to Kingdom Death: Monster and Bombshell Babes in my opinion.
They have taken criticism before and decided that we aren't ready for anything just yet. That's the vibe I've gotten from all of this. I'm thinking they weren't prepared for a diverse community to sound off so loudly, because hey, they have our money, of course we're going to be loud and raging about what we get. (See wot I did thar?)
Well, there are times during the KS that they could be seen to have reacted to backer feedback, though some of those same things could have been planned in advance to keep the money flowing into the pledge total.
As for what we'll see in the update with renders / prints (it's the next update, coming soon, honest) they're likely not going to want to make any changes. Especially if they're talking about showing us the masters. It'd also cause too much of a delay if they had to go back and fix 20% of the sculpting on a number of the models.
Jimsolo wrote: , I think that the RH team has taken criticism, and more importantly, been willing to alter their game plan in favor of what their customers want, more so than any other gaming company I've ever had dealings with.
Sarcasm?
No, quite genuine. I've actually NEVER seen a game company give two farts about the feedback they got before. (Certainly never any feedback I've been a part of.) Any feedback I've ever participated in has gotten either a complete cold shoulder (like from Games Workshop) or a 'thanks for buying our merchandise, now piss off' form letter (like White Wolf). The fact that RH has made any alterations, ever, at all, puts them ahead of the pack in my own personal experience. Obviously everyone else has had some different experiences.
Ouch. I've had to deal with White Wolf as well. It wasn't as pleasant as I could have hoped for. But Prodos have done a massive amount of change based on customer feedback for Warzone. Wild West Exodus altered sculpts to respond to criticism, Patrick the Sculptdude scraped a whole head because we all said it was wee too big. Mark Mondragon actually polled his backers on the skirting/tabards of his heavy infantry...Paulson Games is always open to suggestions and willing to discuss issues with both his game and minis with customers.
I think big companies can insulate themselves from customer feedback because what's one voice (or a few thousand on a glorious forum like ours) compared to the millions of customers out there buying. Big companies. Did you hear those two words, Raginshiroz?
Jimsolo wrote: , I think that the RH team has taken criticism, and more importantly, been willing to alter their game plan in favor of what their customers want, more so than any other gaming company I've ever had dealings with.
Sarcasm?
No, quite genuine. I've actually NEVER seen a game company give two farts about the feedback they got before. (Certainly never any feedback I've been a part of.) Any feedback I've ever participated in has gotten either a complete cold shoulder (like from Games Workshop) or a 'thanks for buying our merchandise, now piss off' form letter (like White Wolf). The fact that RH has made any alterations, ever, at all, puts them ahead of the pack in my own personal experience. Obviously everyone else has had some different experiences.
This must be the first KS involving not yet produced sculpture then. Pretty much every one that I've been a part of has been open to and responded to back critique. And while not all of them acted upon some of the critiques, none of them (WWX, Kingdom Death, Relic Knights, Darklands) have refused to stop shoping WiPs because they're too stupid or lazy to properly respond to critiques.
And I'm sorry, I have to call out their 'process:' so in that reply, they basically say they do a gakky job sculpting faces and boobs first.... On purpose? And then go back and fix them at the end? That doesn't make any fething sense at all.
Jimsolo wrote: , I think that the RH team has taken criticism, and more importantly, been willing to alter their game plan in favor of what their customers want, more so than any other gaming company I've ever had dealings with.
Sarcasm?
No, quite genuine. I've actually NEVER seen a game company give two farts about the feedback they got before. (Certainly never any feedback I've been a part of.) Any feedback I've ever participated in has gotten either a complete cold shoulder (like from Games Workshop) or a 'thanks for buying our merchandise, now piss off' form letter (like White Wolf). The fact that RH has made any alterations, ever, at all, puts them ahead of the pack in my own personal experience. Obviously everyone else has had some different experiences.
This must be the first KS involving not yet produced sculpture then. Pretty much every one that I've been a part of has been open to and responded to back critique. And while not all of them acted upon some of the critiques, none of them (WWX, Kingdom Death, Relic Knights, Darklands) have refused to stop shoping WiPs because they're too stupid or lazy to properly respond to critiques.
And I'm sorry, I have to call out their 'process:' so in that reply, they basically say they do a gakky job sculpting faces and boobs first.... On purpose? And then go back and fix them at the end? That doesn't make any fething sense at all.
Not to pile on Jim, but taking into account backer feedback and polling them is actually relatively common, especially when the matters are not about elements central to the artistic vision; for example, consider this representative update from KD:M, where Poots is soliciting opinions on custom dice, and at the same time showing off several WIPs.
Poots understands that insight into the process is exactly one of the things that attracts people into backing a project on kickstarter, so he pulls back the curtain little bit,
What they probably meant, and I'm being generous here, is that they use a generic female form, and then tweak the body after the details and skins have been added.
The thing is it's not that hard to articulate, and makes sense when it is said that way. They way they said it, yeah, it makes them sound like dufusses.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: So I had a pretty long conversation with some of the RH team, and I do have an answer for you guys as far as where the heck the WIPs are.
"Because we are working on all the Troops soldiers at the same time. Instead of working on one soldier at a time and taking her to the finish line, we are pushing the entire squadron forward inch by inch. So most of the WIPs we would issue would be totally misleading: the details that most backers would focus on are only fixed in the end, such as an ugly face (we prepare the heads separately and put them on at the end), too big boobs (for example, we do all the sculpts and then make changes once we place them all side by side to ensure continuity and consistency), wrong weapons (we often use the same weapon for all the minis as 'place-holders', and switch to the correct weapons for each individual mini on the last days), etc. So you can imagine the number of comments, complaints, scare, and worse we'd have to deal with if we were to show such WIPs. We just don't have the manpower to handle it. Plus, many of those worries are groundless, because all these issues are planned to be fixed in the end anyway."
They had thought this had been explained in a prior update when they initially talked about their non-linear work flow.
You know, the bit you just quoted to us might be better served as part of an official update. (well, if they removed the "our backers are morons" bit at the end). You know, information that gives backers a bit of credit and explains things. I guess such details on their non-linear workflow may be a trade secret? Imagine what could happen if someone like GW found out this info!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Taarnak wrote: I do like to poke at this particular bear every now and again tough, and here is why: You folks, as Kickstarter backers, have floated these fools a gigantic, interest-free loan. Yes you are technically donating, I get that. But look at it this way: If they had gotten a loan for this money for a bank, they would have likely needed to put up some hefty collateral, firstly. Secondly, they would at the very least likely have to be making repayments at this point. Then there is the fact that they would be paying interest; a lot of it.
So, in exchange for your no-interest loan you are owed, at minimum, regular progress reports and a look at what you have been paying for. Until more accountability is demanded by us, as Kickstarter "consumers" we will have more bs like RH has given, and total screw ups like the Mantic Basilean Man-at-Arms figures.
Also, the very notion that they have invented something new with digital sculpting is hilariously out of touch.
Nothing against, or meant towards you sir. Hope you didn't take it that way.
~Eric
Everything you said could be pointed at McCMON and Sedition Wars as well, though. In all honesty, and with the benefit of hindsight, I feel the bigger fool for having backed McVey (sadly, for a very large amount). While RH may be RDBs in many ways, I do have faith that their end product will be way beyond what was delivered by Sedition Wars.
Everything you said could be pointed at McCMON and Sedition Wars as well, though. In all honesty, and with the benefit of hindsight, I feel the bigger fool for having backed McVey (sadly, for a very large amount). While RH may be RDBs in many ways, I do have faith that their end product will be way beyond what was delivered by Sedition Wars.
Truth be told, I don't think anyone expected there to be as many problems with Sedition Wars as there were. I mean, for me, the biggest drawing point WAS the McVey name, which previously had really been synonymous with high quality miniatures (and full disclosure, I still think the Sedition Wars ones are definitely above average). I mean, with Raging Heroes, I guess you at least have the expectation from previous endeavors that they're going to be really late? If that's the case, I don't know why one would back them in the first place unless you're okay with that tardiness.
Jimsolo wrote: , I think that the RH team has taken criticism, and more importantly, been willing to alter their game plan in favor of what their customers want, more so than any other gaming company I've ever had dealings with.
Sarcasm?
No, quite genuine. I've actually NEVER seen a game company give two farts about the feedback they got before. (Certainly never any feedback I've been a part of.) Any feedback I've ever participated in has gotten either a complete cold shoulder (like from Games Workshop) or a 'thanks for buying our merchandise, now piss off' form letter (like White Wolf). The fact that RH has made any alterations, ever, at all, puts them ahead of the pack in my own personal experience. Obviously everyone else has had some different experiences.
There's really quite a lot of companies here on Dakka around the same size as RH who are very receptive to feedback. Here's a few that immediately spring to mind in terms of getting design feedback from us - as distinct from being active and friendly but just releasing stuff without actively asking for ideas and feedback (Kromlech, Maxmini):
Victoria Miniatures
Anvil Industries
Paulson Games
Dreamforge Games
Red Box Games
- edit - Mad Robot. (couldn't recall the name last night).
I know Kev from Hasslefree is also actively listening to feedback online (he's responded positively to suggestions I made via LifeInvader), and also does so on the Forum of Doom, along with others like Heresy.
Truth be told, I don't think anyone expected there to be as many problems with Sedition Wars as there were. I mean, for me, the biggest drawing point WAS the McVey name, which previously had really been synonymous with high quality miniatures (and full disclosure, I still think the Sedition Wars ones are definitely above average). I mean, with Raging Heroes, I guess you at least have the expectation from previous endeavors that they're going to be really late? If that's the case, I don't know why one would back them in the first place unless you're okay with that tardiness.
Absolutely on (most) of those points. That's why I said SW was one of hindsight. With RH, I know they're going to be severely late (as I did with Avatars of War), but I also expect that the finished product will be pretty bloody good.
Absolutely on (most) of those points. That's why I said SW was one of hindsight. With RH, I know they're going to be severely late (as I did with Avatars of War), but I also expect that the finished product will be pretty bloody good.
Yep, late doesn't bother me at all in this instance, because the minis wouldn't be available at retail any sooner than the KS backers would be getting theirs anyway. Box games and other "bundled" Kickstarters run the risk of the producer falling behind on individual KS backer shipments, but getting retailer shipments out and available to the general public before the backers get theirs. This doesn't really bother me much, usually because I'm getting the better deal in the end, but it does come up quite a bit in KS threads (and KS backers are quite vocal on these points) where backers are waiting on product that the general public has access to.
I think one of the issues we're seeing for this particular KS is that the project was funded pretty much entirely via concept art, with only a few renders and WIP shots to whet backers' appetites for what the finished product will look like. Couple this with a lack of WIP or finished miniature shots for almost 2 months after the project ended, and it's completely justifiable for backers to want some communication from RH, even if it's just a weekly update saying "Here's a list of the things we did this week." At least that way we'd know there was progress being made somewhere instead of being left practically in the dark.
Also, we don't need a list of things you did outside of working on the miniatures: KS isn't the place for that. Post it on a blog somewhere, or in the general comments. KS updates should really convey as much information about the production of the project as possible to keep backers informed and satisfied that their money is being spent accordingly. Deviate too far from this, and backers become restless, which leads to grumpy backers, and eventually ill-will.
Finally, if they put up WIP pictures, they need to be ready for comments and criticism to be given. Whether they do anything with it is up to them. Expect a barrage of every type of criticism imaginable, have a plan for how to approach each type, and be mindful of how much wiggle room you want to have with your designs based on what your customers are saying. If you aren't going to change anything based on feedback, tell people that, so they know where to set their expectations.
At this point, I'm expecting the "Big Update" to come second week of October. These are my expectations now: add 1-2 weeks on to anything said by RH in the comments, based on their posting and updating history for this Kickstarter. They're far off the mark for timeliness, but I'm still hoping and expecting the work they do to be above par. I just have to wait longer for it to come to light.
But some of us didn't even pay for that privilidge Alph.
This thread is pure enjoyment from that perspective. Plus I figured one kickstarter with product that won't show up for a decade my limit (AoW) and even then it was only the standard bearer.
at communication. EDIT: And as Sining said, if you support them in their statement that "time not spent working on the minis is penalising every single backer", why won't you address the fact that they apparently have plenty of time to spare when it comes to posting images of weird fashion on their Tumblr page?
I had hopes of getting in on their Dark Elves, but if I don't have minis in my hands by the time that Kickstarter goes off, I'm not going to be able to give them any more money on account.
