So we can hope with almost 2k buffer zone Natasha is locked in, no interest whatsoever to the IE character the JB hacker is funny, but I still think its a bridge too far, 43k in 116 minutes....
The hacker is interesting, but unless we get unlocks for post-campaign Paypal pledge increases, I don't think we'll get her. Not even really interested in the cyber zombies or the IE officer. Really, I just want more upgrades at this point.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Sigh last update was for the 648 streachgoal, last frontpage editing was for 665k streachgoal what are they waiting to communicate?
They posted a roadmap of what would be unlocked and when going up to $720k - what precisely should they be posting? What communication is required?
Ouze wrote: They posted a roadmap of what would be unlocked and when going up to $720k - what precisely should they be posting? What communication is required?
Careful Ouze. Most of the people here want second-to-second updates on everything they're doing.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Sigh last update was for the 648 streachgoal, last frontpage editing was for 665k streachgoal what are they waiting to communicate?
They posted a roadmap of what would be unlocked and when going up to $720k - what precisely should they be posting? What communication is required?
It's the Free Upgrade sections. Prior to the breakfast break, they were keeping people up to date on which characters were getting what upgrades. One of the upgrades has gone by now without anyone know what is getting added to who, and another is coming up. I think that might be what he meant.
You did it! You did it! All 4 Female Werewolves are now unlocked! You can now add Zagrath , Sheera, Vankaree and Reyha to your pledge selection.
And in case you wondered why we went from 3 to 4 Wereshewolves, yes, blame it on the Concept Artist and the Art Director. The two of them did such great work together, none of us could decide which one to remove
At $675,000 - Freebie: Natasha, Com Operator, is also unlocked, bringing the total of freebies added to your pledge to 14.
Get this: All pledges at LIEUTENANT BOX level and above now have a set of 14 Freebies worth $222 at retail, and $149 if you pick them up as Add-ons during the Kickstarter! Swweeeet!
What's in the next Free Upgrades?
Well, as we wrote here, the Free Upgrades were listed as place holders: we were still compiling the final list when we prepared the road map, but we wanted to make sure to unlock all Free upgrades before the end.
We did that by actually batching several of them together to ensure their unlock, so that worked out just fine for everyone!
Less than two hours left to unlock...
At $700,000 - Uber-Stretch Goal: Unit of Cyberzombies
We unfortunately don't have a very clear image to show you for this unit.
Nevertherless, as you've already seen the Cyberzombies #42 and W101, you already do have a pretty good idea of what the unit will look like.
But rest assured that we will of course be sharing images of the work-in-progress with you as we work on them.
At $710,000 – Freebie: Freya Pain-Sec, Iron Empire Officer
At $720,000 - Freebie: Zab the Hacker, Jailbird Cyber Pirate
Well to be honest I was fine with Karoline, but Natasha when revealed was quite good, so I would like to see her in, Zab is not that interesting to me but I love the idea of a homage miniature to somebody that helped them in the past.
Overall with communication, proportions, discrepancy between art and wip sculpts and attitude on some times, I have lost quite a huge part of my enthusiasm about it, I really hope, because I selected non heroes they will stay true in their commitment on making them same proportions as the heroes and as close to concept art as possible, else I am in for a huge disappointment.
PsychoticStorm wrote: Sigh last update was for the 648 streachgoal, last frontpage editing was for 665k streachgoal what are they waiting to communicate?
They posted a roadmap of what would be unlocked and when going up to $720k - what precisely should they be posting? What communication is required?
I will explain you the email you get for "YaY we reached that", is not a reminder for somebody who constantly watches, but for those that do not and might be intrigued once a certain critical mass is reached or for those that thought "meh we will never reach that".
It creates interest, momentum and flow, something RH failed to grasp even now. look at the last update you unlocked 14 freebies, we don't know what but you did! .... really?
Kroothawk wrote: Anyone can still deny with a straight face that this kickstarter gets an end rush like most kickstarters do?
*puts on straight face*
They're obviously in damage control.
Wasn't damage control the first few weeks?
I will take the challenge
Final day still needs 17k to equal the day before that (and both together are a farcry of the first day), if that is the "end rush" most kickstarters have then most kickstarters we have backed would be nothing.
They failed to capitalize on the initial momentum, they failed to keep it flowing with communication, they failed to make it good enough for people to jump in like mad, the moves of the last few days should have happened two weeks ago, is 700k, if they reach it, a success? I guess its in the eyes of the beholder, in my opinion this could have easily gone for far more if they had run it properly.
Dumb question, and probably asked already, but: I imagine you're can't swap a freebie for a non-freebie, right? Like, I couldn't pass on Raven or Nertha for a different $15 pledge? I presume the freebies have, as the name implies, no monetary value pledgewise?
Even I've got to say, reaching where they are is damned impressive, especially since they're not a company that would be regularly discussed in gaming clubs.
Compel wrote: Even I've got to say, reaching where they are is damned impressive, especially since they're not a company that would be regularly discussed in gaming clubs.
They will be now. Especially at any gaming club where there are people who are A) not deaf and B) too small or slow to get away from me.
Jimsolo wrote: Well, thanks for letting people know Alyan. Hope you find satisfaction elsewhere.
Oh no, I just snagged a slightly cheaper one. I have no doubt I will be very satisfied with what I'm getting.
Although, I still can't decide if I want to drop Vera, after they hiked up her price. Her concept art isn't that exciting, but I like standard-bearers. OTOH, I could use that money to develop my smaller Kurg faction (made up mostly of freebies so far).
PsychoticStorm wrote: Final day still needs 17k to equal the day before that (and both together are a farcry of the first day), if that is the "end rush" most kickstarters have then most kickstarters we have backed would be nothing.
You are aware that the "final day" is only about 5 hours right? And that this kickstarter made 100k in 30 hours?
Daily statistics look odd on this one, because heavy campaigning on dakka and facebook made many people aware of this, pledging in the first two hours, making almost double what Cthulu wars made the first day. A 250k column at the start makes 70k look rather small.
Also boardgames are well accepted on kickstarter: No assembly, no painting, and lots of cheap plastic minis. Still, Cthulhu Wars made not much more that last two days.
I understand that impulse very well. Earlier my wife asked me how much I had spent on this. I told her I had changed my pledge several times (which was true) and I wasn't even really sure anymore (which was substantially less true). I was then obligated to ask her if she'd like to go out for mexican food at her favorite restaurant to change the subject which fixed the problem for now.
I understand that impulse very well. Earlier my wife asked me how much I had spent on this. I told her I had changed my pledge several times (which was true) and I wasn't even really sure anymore (which was substantially less true). I was then obligated to ask her if she'd like to go out for mexican food at her favorite restaurant to change the subject which fixed the problem for now.
It's a good thing I'm not accountable to anyone re: how I spend my money. I'm a poor grad student who certainly shouldn't be dropping $300 on toys, but I'm spending part of my saved-up TA-ing paycheck on this. >.>
You are either missing or ignoring my point, its not as good as it could have been, I do not know of RH were really "nobodies not discussed in the community" the initial surge showed that while many did not buy their miniatures such as me, were waiting for something like this to give them money.
I feel its unfortunate that people like me through the campaign process lost interest and consolidated to less, that's the opposite direction of what they should have achieved.
Yes, 700k is not a bad amount, if they reach it, the point is they could have easily gone for much much more than that.
I can confirm that 11 hours ago was still "yesterday", with 30k pledges still added after I went to bed. So even if 30k were pledged within 5 minutes, "today" is at most 12 hours. AFAIK, new day began 5 hours ago.
Would be sweet to see it hit 700K, but it needs a little over 10K in just 45 minutes to do so
Really smart on their part breaking up those werewolves, they were such great concepts that they really carried them home!
It is true that the 3rd and 2nd to last days were slow, but they're definitely hitting a homerun on the final day (final being this last day, not how kicktraq breaks it up)
Kroothawk wrote: Anyone can still deny with a straight face that this kickstarter gets an end rush like most kickstarters do?
*puts on straight face*
They're obviously in damage control.
Not really.
The chart that Kroot refuses to show:
says that this one is not, in fact, just like many other Kickstarters but... so what?
It is still an undeniable success - I'm sure this campaign probably will bring in double what RH has made to date for the entire existence of their company.
So, just over 30 minutes remaining to reach the $720k figure that unlocks everything.
Currently on $692,619 and climbing fairly quickly. Though I don't think it's climbing fast enough to reach 720k. All we can do now is sit back and watch.
I doubt we'll hit 720, but 700k would be sweet as well.
I mean... they told us that they did not recceive that much from paypal.. but MAYBE it's enough to bump it up to 720k in the end.
Kroothawk wrote: Anyone can still deny with a straight face that this kickstarter gets an end rush like most kickstarters do?
*puts on straight face*
They're obviously in damage control.
Not really.
The chart that Kroot refuses to show:
says that this one is not, in fact, just like many other Kickstarters but... so what?
It is still an undeniable success - I'm sure this campaign probably will bring in double what RH has made to date for the entire existence of their company.
Almost in spite of itself!
It's really a fascinating exercise. While I'll be waiting till the thing is cold and still before cutting into it, right now I'm just happy that I can get the 4 wolves for my Circle army.
Some herald should ask them about the Zombie unlock.
Anyway, first comment:
Raging heroes wrote:Thank you all!!!!!
You have been unbelievable.
This morning, 24 hours ago, when we got up, we were not even sure that the second trike would be unlocked!
And the day before, we felt the same for the previous Stretch Goals.
This was really an incredible ride!
We really want to thank al of you who have been spreading the word around, and particularly the Raging Heralds, who have done so much. We would not have been able to make it without them.
And many thanks also go to Kenny for his pledge Caculator.
And again, thank you all for the support!
So my pledge structure changed significantly from where I thought it'd originally be, I decided I couldn't support the EB commander I was at and dropped down to an EB4 Lieutenant pledge to get what I really wanted out of this Kickstarter, which I realized was really the gorgeous heroines, and those brutal war goddess werewolves.
So here's my list:
Ivanka Kruganova Commander Elektra One Shot Blondie Karmina Noxx Arushka Snipers General Ilsa Wolfenstein Nepharya (Necro Priestess) Werewolves (Zagrath and Sheera)
Really the only thing that's "intact" units wise is Karmina Noxx and her scout sniper team, Ivanka and Elektra weathered the storm of change, and Arushka got picked out of the three Soul weavers. Also went with General Ilsa instead of grabbing another troops box, purely for rule of cool.
Here's hoping when the game's rules drop that the werewolves play like the MCs they're priced like. Dropping two of those, a Yaga soul weaver and a heroine or two for support might MORE then enough army for a lot of situations.
Side note, found it highly amusing that the freebie pack to the DOLLAR doubled my pledge funds. Not bad value for money unless RH's sculptors decide they're having an impressionist phase...
I'm in with a friend for an EB Commander + some extra cash. Total for just me: $220 worth of minis
IE: #42 Doc Von X Lady Sighrith Rozenkrantz Mortaria Keela Krupps Regular Troopers CG Heavy Troopers CG Snipers Artillery unit (#3?) Bike #2 (or Vera... really can't decide) Jetgirls
Haven't finalised what I'm getting yet, but it's going to be a lot of JB troopers and some heroines to pad things out a bit.
Currently have 24 trooper/command boxes pencilled in, to make two platoons of IG. With a heavy leaning towards the command box for the heavy weapons that are included rather than buying the artillery boxes. Price wise it's the same, but going the command box route gets 5 figures and a number of weapons.
The complicated part is working out total discount, as it's spread over three EB230 commander pledges. I decided the extra shipping was a fair trade off for the six or so freebies that were up at the time. It's certainly that way now that the freebies have a post KS value of $240, doubling the commander pledge value.
Raging Heroes wrote:THANK YOU!!! Update #71 · Jul 7, 2013
Thank you all!!!!!
You have been unbelievable.
This morning, 24 hours ago, when we got up, we were not even sure that the second trike would be unlocked!
And the day before, we felt the same for the previous Stretch Goals.
This was really an incredible ride!
We really want to thank all of you who have been spreading the word around, and particularly the Raging Heralds, who have done so much. We would not have been able to make it without them.
And many thanks also go to Kenny for his Pledge Calculator.
And again, thank you all for the support!
Just one year ago, we started thinking about doing a Kickstarter. We felt that Ivanka and her sisters would need a few troops to stir up and order around. At first, it was a pretty small project. And then, it started growing. What it has become today greatly exceeded our wildest expectations. This means a lot of new opportunities for Raging Heroes and for you the backers!
We cannot thank you enough for your amazing support. We would never have anticipated so much interest for the world we are developing around The Toughest Girls of the Galaxy, and for the background we created for each character.
Now that you've done so much for us, please be assured that it is our turn to take care of you and create the truly amazing minis you are waiting for.
We will now take some crucially needed rest, so that we can come back refreshed and ready to tackle the production and delivery of this project. We are likely to be out of touch for a few days.
And once we get back, we'll get the ball rolling again!
The Raging Heroes Team
Benoit, Mireille, Jean-Romain, Alex, Andrea
Would be fine if some herald could ask them about the Zombie unlock before they disappear.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Damn it! I thought I've changed my pledge to the Lieutenant, but it still says Painter's Box at the end. What the hell can I do about that?
Message them, you might be able to tack on some extra money with paypal if you need to then when the survey comes just add a note on it that you wanted the other one?
I'm sure Buzzsaw will soon have an indepth analysis to post, but here's a few random thoughts of my own:
For a niche product (alt IG/SOB) within an already niche market (mini wargaming), $698K is an amazing success for a product that currently (apart from those who collect rather than play) can only be used within preexisting game systems. Could it have done better if Raging Heroes had done things differently? Possibly, but I doubt it. At the end of the day, you either wanted these models for use within your current collection/games at the KS discounted prices, or you didn't, and Raging Heroes would not have been able to change that much after the project started. There's a reason why RH pointed out that they're the second most funded miniatures-only KS project: because comparing it to CMON, KD:M, or any number of other complete game KS projects is really comparing apples to oranges. Now, a comparison to Dreamforge Games, Bombshell Babes, Damsels of Darkmyre, and Reaper Bones is a much better performance comparison.
Kicktraq charts: Despite Kroot's and Alph's duelling charts they still basically show the same thing: big start, slow during the middle stretch, and a boost at the finish. I do think the charts are somewhat flawed, however, as the last "day" of the campaign was really only a few hours of the early morning for the USA audience, so, really, the performance for the last two days should probably be combined.
Pledge Breakdown: It's interesting to look at the numbers of pledges within the different pledge groups and how much money they contributed. The way I look at it, you basically have three groups of pledges: Those who went in "small," relatively speaking, because they wanted a few models or a squad ($165 Lieutenant level and below). Those who went in "medium" and wanted a full IG platoon and/or some support ($245 Commander level to $495 Major level). And those who "went large" looking for a full army ($745 Colonel level up to the $1490 Eminence level, but I would also include the $695 Connoisseur level in this). Here's the numbers for those three groups: 1645 Small, 828 Medium, and 187 Large (unless I'm blind, I've checked those numbers 3 times, so how come they add up to 2660 instead of the the KS total of 2748 backers?) Anyway, I think the interesting point there is that the "Large" group of pledges accounts for at least $177,105. Wow, about 7% of the backers accounted for about 25% of the total amount pledged (assuming I didn't mess up on the calculator).
Tannhauser42 wrote: Here's the numbers for those three groups: 1645 Small, 828 Medium, and 187 Large (unless I'm blind, I've checked those numbers 3 times, so how come they add up to 2660 instead of the the KS total of 2748 backers?)
Anyone who pledged a single dollar or did not select a reward is probably missing from your sums but included in the kickstarter total.
I think success cannot be measured by the amount they got, or the percentage they blasted their objective by. 12K was unrealistic for such a project.
In my mind, success will be measured by the future take-off of the line and the game. If neither happen, then we'll have to reckon that the kickstarter was a failure. If only the line of minis survives and no game, then I'd call it a half success because they can sell their product, but will ultimately be dependent of other factors out of their control for continued volumes of sales.
Trust me, I want nothing more than an alternative to GW. I understand the place GW has in the market, but alternatives are always a good thing. Since my household is a DINK, even these boutique prices won't turn me off if the game is, say, platoon sized. Heck, even company sized over time would be fine by me. But they need that game, in my opinion, more than three more lines of minis. Even if the game is bare-bones, focusing only on these units, with more expansions later on.
Tannhauser42 wrote: I'm sure Buzzsaw will soon have an indepth analysis to post, but here's a few random thoughts of my own:
For a niche product (alt IG/SOB) within an already niche market (mini wargaming), $698K is an amazing success for a product that currently (apart from those who collect rather than play) can only be used within preexisting game systems. Could it have done better if Raging Heroes had done things differently? Possibly, but I doubt it. At the end of the day, you either wanted these models for use within your current collection/games at the KS discounted prices, or you didn't, and Raging Heroes would not have been able to change that much after the project started. There's a reason why RH pointed out that they're the second most funded miniatures-only KS project: because comparing it to CMON, KD:M, or any number of other complete game KS projects is really comparing apples to oranges. Now, a comparison to Dreamforge Games, Bombshell Babes, Damsels of Darkmyre, and Reaper Bones is a much better performance comparison.
It's not just a case of wanting the figures at the discounted prices or not. There's a number of issues with the way that RH ran the kickstarter that they'll hopefully sort out for their next one. Getting these right would have made the final total higher than it was.
Backer Interaction
- Communication through updates / comments / Heralds. This was all, at times, quite lacking, especially in the first few days when they were likely running around like Zoidberg when the project was funded before most people had even realised it was live. They did get better, after comments here and on the KS board itself. But, it never really felt like they were getting involved with the backers. Sure, they'd stick around for 20-30 minutes after posting an update to answer a couple of questions that came up but that was it. They were also not that stellar with PMs, leaving people hanging without a response if the question was still being discussed internally rather than dropping a quick 'We're talking about it' onto the PM to let the backer / potential backer know that it hadn't been forgotten about. I also experienced this first hand, asking a question about personal drop ship options on the 23rd, being told that they were going to look at it fairly quickly and to ask again in a couple of days. Having done so on the 27th I didn't get any further response until update 63.
Stretch Goals
- These were all over the place, starting off quite low for the first 3 that were up before the frenzied assault on EB slots began. Though they went very elastic following this, with RH just unlocking things without giving us any indication as to why they were being unlocked. Then, when we came out of the pledge storm, the SGs posted were at a vastly greater interval than expected and we'd had a single freebie upgrade to some of the heroines. This lack of freebies was a little surprising, given that at that point they were sitting on $200k pledged against a goal of $12k. After a bit more faffing around with SGs, the 5k per SG interval did work for a while, but seemed to suffer later on due to lack of information about what was coming up further along. If they'd given us a longer roadmap for unlocks, as they did in the last couple of days, I'm sure that people would have been happier with this rather than worrying about the chance of X or Y being unlocked before the end or if they were going to hit the magic $730k mark to get everything unlocked.
The change to ad-hoc unlocks was interesting and does seem to have worked. Though I feel they should have brought the actual SGs back sooner, rather than waiting several days from when the last one (Jinx) was unlocked to reveal the final push SGs. If these had been put up a week earlier, and added to as we got further along, I'm sure this could have been easily pushed to the other side of $1 million.
New Pledge Levels
Whilst these were a nice addition I think more could have been done with them. Either bringing them in earlier, in the case of the connoisseur level or not having the top two pledge levels in at the start and adding them in the same way as the Eminence level. Say, adding Colonel after the first week, then General a week later followed by Eminence a week after that. Bringing them in in the same way and giving us another round of the EB mini-game every so often to promote people to spend a little more for the next level up. I'm sure it could be argued doing this the other way, and having all the pledge levels in from the start, but I think bringing them in later would have a larger impact on numbers.
A ring for fic writing? Consider my hat tossed in sirs and ladies.
Lieutentant Sheera Yarost of the 1137th Heavy Assault Infantry was never what you would describe as a "calm" or "cheerful" woman. Her own mother, a skilled armor officer herself described her eldest daughter as "Terrifying, with a pleasantly psychotic edge" while the lieutenant was a capable tactician, her legendary rage made her the ideal commander of small squads of assault troops, amongst these elite units Lt. Yarost's rage was said to be worth more then a softening artillery barrage when it came to cracking a hardened position.
If fortified military outposts couldn't stand up to the hate of Sheera Yarost... the small run down pub she was currently occupying, just off of one of the many military bases deep in the Kurganova core worlds had never stood a chance. The destruction surrounding the solitary woman at the bar spoke to that. Of the former staff and occupants, those who weren't dead had fled, and most of the furniture had been smashed in one way or another, except for the stool Sheera now occupied, slamming back burning alcohol in a futile attempt to silence the howling rage that was pervading her very bones.
"All. Dead."
Her voice rasped out of her throat like a blade being sharpened against a leather strap. It was creaky from over use, screaming in pain, rage, and loss, had robbed her of her normal speech patterns. The drink wasn't helping her sore throat either. It took her a moment to notice her face was damp, blood? No... not blood? Tears? How long had it been since she cried...
A whisper of fabric against the ground, the soft striking of a staff being leaned heavily upon, alerted Sheera to a presence joining her in the room. A warming presence... familiar somehow, but not one she could locate for some reason, despite her best attempts as she whirled on the stool, searching for whatever had joined her, like her eyes refused to focus as she continued to openly weep for her dead.
"There there child, tell Baba what's wrong."
For some reason the crackled, aging voice shattered what was left of her restraint, as tears poured forth like rivers, and that cracking torn voice became a child's voice, the voice of a little girl running for mother's armored leg when something that seemed an unimaginable cruelty had occured..
"Baba... they're all dead Baba... those scum killed my squad..."
"and you seek revenge?"
Sheera's voice went from a blithering child to steely killer in a heart beat.
"Yes. With everything I am."
"Know there is no going back from this child."
"I have nothing to go back too."
A withered hand rests lightly on Sheera's shoulder as her eyes finally focus, revealing the heavily robed form of a withered crone in a heavy cybersorcery mantle, her craggy face cracked into a smile that managed to be both kind and unsettling.
"Good child, come with me, Baba Yaga will make it all better..."
prankster wrote: It's not just a case of wanting the figures at the discounted prices or not. There's a number of issues with the way that RH ran the kickstarter that they'll hopefully sort out for their next one. Getting these right would have made the final total higher than it was.
Unfortunately, this is where we disagree. To me, everything you listed is basically the sideshow. The models are the main attraction. It's the models that put the proverbial butts in the seats. Almost every complaint people had about this project can also be applied to Games Workshop in far greater amounts (and GW actually has a Customer Service department), but people still continue to drop enormous amounts of money on GW product, because it's the product that sells.
Sure, I think they could have done better, but I do not believe it would have brought them to the million dollar mark like I've seen some people claim.
Tannhauser42 wrote: I'm sure Buzzsaw will soon have an indepth analysis to post, but here's a few random thoughts of my own:
For a niche product (alt IG/SOB) within an already niche market (mini wargaming), $698K is an amazing success for a product that currently (apart from those who collect rather than play) can only be used within preexisting game systems. Could it have done better if Raging Heroes had done things differently? Possibly, but I doubt it. At the end of the day, you either wanted these models for use within your current collection/games at the KS discounted prices, or you didn't, and Raging Heroes would not have been able to change that much after the project started. There's a reason why RH pointed out that they're the second most funded miniatures-only KS project: because comparing it to CMON, KD:M, or any number of other complete game KS projects is really comparing apples to oranges. Now, a comparison to Dreamforge Games, Bombshell Babes, Damsels of Darkmyre, and Reaper Bones is a much better performance comparison. ...
I will indeed be posting an in-depth analysis, but it won't be very soon I fear.
There is, however, one thing I would comment on quickly: the notion that TGG ought to be considered in some heretofore undiscovered category of "miniatures-only Kickstarter". This is (IMO) little more then self-aggrandizement, and more then a little intellectually dishonest.
TGG may not have a specific time-frame on when their rules will be out, but it is abundantly clear that a) they intend to have a ruleset and b) that the rules and background were non-trivial elements of the campaign.
When it suits their purpose, RH acknowledges as much: "there is a richness to this KS (e.g., major story lines and an upcoming game) that takes their craft to the next level”, (interestingly, this is stated immediately before they boast of being "2nd biggest miniatures-only Kickstarter"...) and elaborate (at times bordering on overly elaborate) back-stories for their units and heroines. They have publicly and repeatedly stated that they have a game in development, and have been doing so for some time.
Heck, we even know some of the rules for the game (when it is necessary to deflect criticism over the appearence of child soldiers their rules are suddenly rather thought out...);
Spoiler:
Of course, we don't want them to be part of the fights on the battlefield.
So we decided that in-game, the Lulu's will have very specific capabilities.
No one will be able to target them, and they will be virtually indestructible.
They won't be able to inflict any damage to anyone but they will distract enemy focus, and/or create safe zones around them for the Jailbirds.
In fairness, this is all a very small issue, but it is emblematic of a thread that ran through the campaign, of the desire on the part of RH not to be compared to other campaigns or companies.
Consider that "a comparison to Dreamforge Games, Bombshell Babes, Damsels of Darkmyre, and Reaper Bones is a much better performance comparison" actually illustrates how pointless such a comparison is. Not least of which because both Damsels of Darkmyre and Dreamforge have games associated with their properties in various levels of completion. If one is to compare to Bones or Bombshell, it must be pointed out that, compared to those two, there is an enormous amount of character background in TGG.
Bones and Bombshell miniatures are clearly intended to be used only as pieces in other games (although, it must be pointed out that Reaper does have a few rules sets that it's miniatures can be used in), to a far greater degree then TGG. The TGG line includes a number of exotic options that have little to no use in the dominant game system, because they are so infused with flavor specific to the TGG setting (the Lulus being the ultimate example).
Besides, what is the point of making the distinction in any case? Does it really matter that, say, we know the background for Mortaria Noctis, who by-the-by happens to look like she would make an amazing Callidus assassin (that's the sniper one, right?) but not the specific rules for her scarab mind-control rifle?
The fact is the single best comparison for TGG is not Bones, or Dreamforge, but Relic Knights and Deadzone. These projects each attempted to do the same basic thing: kickstart (pun intended) a complete game system, including multiple factions and a comprehensive amount of sculpts. At the time of close for both of those the rules for the games were at best in beta (and in the case of RK, word is the rules were in considerably more like alpha) condition. Is it really appropriate to make hard and fast category decisions based on the different degree of "in development" of the respective games?
I would answer no. But then again I fundamentally think there are mechanics of selling and psychology associated with that, mechanics which are largely independent of what you are selling. To be sure, there are intrinsics to any field, but especially as it comes to crowdfunding campaigns, there is far more common ground then is often appreciated.
Buzzsaw wrote: There is, however, one thing I would comment on quickly: the notion that TGG ought to be considered in some heretofore undiscovered category of "miniatures-only Kickstarter". This is (IMO) little more then self-aggrandizement, and more then a little intellectually dishonest.
If that is intended to be an insult at me, then you can count me out on any further discussion, as we will have nothing to discuss. I disagree with you, but I see absolutely no need to call you and your opinions "dishonest."
Buzzsaw wrote: The fact is the single best comparison for TGG is not Bones, or Dreamforge, but Relic Knights and Deadzone. These projects each attempted to do the same basic thing: kickstart (pun intended) a complete game system, including multiple factions and a comprehensive amount of sculpts. At the time of close for both of those the rules for the games were at best in beta (and in the case of RK, word is the rules were in considerably more like alpha) condition. Is it really appropriate to make hard and fast category decisions based on the different degree of "in development" of the respective games?
I would answer no. But then again I fundamentally think there are mechanics of selling and psychology associated with that, mechanics which are largely independent of what you are selling. To be sure, there are intrinsics to any field, but especially as it comes to crowdfunding campaigns, there is far more common ground then is often appreciated.
But this was supposed to be a short reply, heh...
I agree with this. Not sure how relevant it is, other than to note that RH is in a more crowded group than they compare themselves (i.e. to things like Relic Knights and Deadzone, rather than just Bones or Bombshell Babes).
Tannhauser- I am almost positive that Buzzsaw was referring to Raging Heroes, not you. His first line addresses you (that he'd be posting an in-depth analysis at some point), and then he moves to his general point about the kickstarter.
Anyway, like I said glad that this did well and I look forward to seeing the miniatures... hopefully in early 2014 as outlined, we'll see!
Question to those who have followed this one more closely to avoid digging through 113 pages of posts...
My buddy did the KS thing for this one for the 2 of us (I've done the last few and fronted the cash) but he only put in enough for the pledge level and didn't include enough for shipping. Should he be chasing them down via PM to adjust now or will there be a paypal option (I know there's one now) when the survey comes out?
Thanks in advance.
Three complete miniature armies funded? Check.
All announced miniatures unlocked? Check.
Lots of upgrades and (from Lieutenant level upward) freebies? Check.
New units and heroines not previously announced unlocked? Check.
Big amount of money raised with most at the start and at the end? Check.
I think, all this qualifies as a success, most early fears about this kickstarter proved to be unfounded in the end.
If 2 updates per day on average is not enough or if an end result of 2 Mio. $ could have been possible, is a matter of personal opinion.
Beyond the first line, saying to you yes, but not soon, Buzzsaw does not reply to you in any way or form, I do not know how you find something clearly written as a commentary on RH behavior on kickstarter been directed at you.
Buzzsaw wrote: There is, however, one thing I would comment on quickly: the notion that TGG ought to be considered in some heretofore undiscovered category of "miniatures-only Kickstarter". This is (IMO) little more then self-aggrandizement, and more then a little intellectually dishonest.
If that is intended to be an insult at me, then you can count me out on any further discussion, as we will have nothing to discuss. I disagree with you, but I see absolutely no need to call you and your opinions "dishonest."
As Mathieu helpfully (and correctly) notes, the comment in question is directed at its origin (hence "self-aggrandizement"). I apologize for any offense due to misapprehension.
As for whether that mischaracterizes the posts in question, I would invite the reading and contrasting of the following updates: TGG, KD:M and MYTH. In fairness, TGG's actual final update is quite a bit less bombastic... to the extent one wonders what the point of the earlier chest thumping was.
@Buzzsaw: Have you ever met a similar hostility towards the kickstarter in the respective Dakka threads? In the kickstarter threads that I have read, nothing comparable to this TTG thread happened. Not even in the infamous "Gates of Antares" or "Malifaux RPG" ones, where even most negative comments were formulated in a constructive way.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: So you don't count the product hitting the street as a factor in measuring success at all?
That's why I said "most". At the moment, we can't verify when the products will be available, so this one is obviously "pending". But I have no doubt that possible delays will be smaller that with Dream Forge
We can only hope for that, but I am positive they were funded the entire structure of the kickstarter made that less than obvious than in others, but the last streachgoals make me believe they were properly funded.
All announced miniatures unlocked? Check.
Well only after having the entire streachgoal part and making them "timed unlock" I am not sure if they kept the normal route were we would be right now, but the indication was not quite far, that been said that brought a question mark on why they had streachgoals in the first place, if they felt time unlock was enough then they either had positively funded them or were thinking the reveals would bring in enough cash to make them funded, the second option is way too reckless.
Lots of upgrades and (from Lieutenant level upward) freebies? Check.
Well no, not really as someone else put it, a head and an arm here and there sounded quite anticlimactic freebies and not a great added value.
New units and heroines not previously announced unlocked? Check.
Quite surprised with this one and quite happy about it to be honest, nurse and Natasha were quite good.
Big amount of money raised with most at the start and at the end? Check.
Mostly at the start some at the end an agonizing flat in the middle.
I think, all this qualifies as a success, most early fears about this kickstarter proved to be unfounded in the end.
If 2 updates per day on average is not enough or if an end result of 2 Mio. $ could have been possible, is a matter of personal opinion.
I would argue that success is a matter of personal opinion, I would also agree that most early fears proved valid till the end.
I think stats formulated as "2nd best eva!" are somewhat misleading as Kickstarter.com looms a lot larger in the public perception (especially of miniature-gamers, who saw it take the industry by storm) than it truly is.
For reference, in 5 years of Kickstarter.com, there have not yet been 2000 successful projects in the "game" category (incl. Video-Games, Board-Games, CCGames, etc, everything). And less than 200 broke the US$ 100,000.- mark.
Kroothawk wrote: Summary:
Three complete miniature armies funded? Check.
We can only hope for that, but I am positive they were funded the entire structure of the kickstarter made that less than obvious than in others, but the last streachgoals make me believe they were properly funded.
All announced miniatures unlocked? Check.
Well only after having the entire streachgoal part and making them "timed unlock"
Okay, then let's say, it was obvious to me after day one. That's why I posted it at that time and took considerable flak for that.
Rahz wrote: Question to those who have followed this one more closely to avoid digging through 113 pages of posts...
My buddy did the KS thing for this one for the 2 of us (I've done the last few and fronted the cash) but he only put in enough for the pledge level and didn't include enough for shipping. Should he be chasing them down via PM to adjust now or will there be a paypal option (I know there's one now) when the survey comes out?
Thanks in advance.
I'd suggest dropping a note to them via the KS contact me function to ensure he's got an offer to pay in writing
They may not get back to him right away (I suspect they now need a 2-3 week holiday), or they may say just paypal to X now
(just waiting until the Pledge manager launches and assuming he can fix it then is probably not the right move and could end up with him having to drop down a pledge level to cover the P&P meaning you get less stuff than expected)
EDIT: The paypal option specifically lets you add shiping (if you forgot it), use step 3 here and remember to note down your KSID and email address in the comments
I'd suggest dropping a note to them via the KS contact me function to ensure he's got an offer to pay in writing
They may not get back to him right away (I suspect they now need a 2-3 week holiday), or they may say just paypal to X now
(just waiting until the Pledge manager launches and assuming he can fix it then is probably not the right move and could end up with him having to drop down a pledge level to cover the P&P meaning you get less stuff than expected)
Kroot, we got it... It did well, you thought it eventually would, check . Fact is both sides are valid, and I think all are happy this did well! Just enjoy it
Ouze wrote: 2013/07/07 03:03:38 I think that 720k freebie isn't going to happen. My guess, it ends just shy of 700k. But we'll see.
Looks like Ouze called it a couple of hours before the end.
The KS was certainly a success, but I think there is no question that the KS was badly managed, even if they pulled it out in the end. With better management I think it could have gone considerably higher. Maybe not a million, but certainly 800 to 900K...
I started with and EB Commander and ended up there as well, but was prepared to at least double the amount if there had been some troops and support offered as freebie stretch goals instead of just single figures to add some army level value to the pledges.
Heroines in general were great concepts, but the bikes, Mecha and to a lesser extent the support weapon designs seemed pretty weak to me as a mecha/treadhead, so I just picked up random heroines and four JB troop/command boxes and 2 Kurg troop/command boxes. Any more will just have to wait until we see some actual sculpts at retail.
RiTides wrote: Kroot, we got it... It did well, you thought it eventually would, check . Fact is both sides are valid, and I think all are happy this did well! Just enjoy it
Well, I don't think the hostility against Raging Heroes and me was valid or helpful. I think the hostile tone in this thread was not worthy of Dakka. That's why I stress that false claims are now proven false. That the panic was uncalled for. And that posters and mods should think twice to let such a hostile thread happen again.
Has someone made an easily identifiable set of pictures of all the models with free upgrades that were unlocked? It's really confusing trying to match the list of names with the figures involved, especially since they don't even use the same full name.
RiTides wrote: Kroot, we got it... It did well, you thought it eventually would, check . Fact is both sides are valid, and I think all are happy this did well! Just enjoy it
Well, I don't think the hostility against Raging Heroes and me was valid or helpful. I think the hostile tone in this thread was not worthy of Dakka. That's why I stress that false claims are now proven false. That the panic was uncalled for. And that posters and mods should think twice to let such a hostile thread happen again.
That's an...interesting take on things here.
This campaign and thread has certainly opened my eyes though, and certain users which I previously found to be reasonable and objective proved to be... anything but!
I guess that's what happens when you recruit "Raging Heralds" and encourage "Raging Fanboys"! (Their words, not mine! )
And such is the nature of Kickstarters!
I do love me a good crowd-funded adventure!
Raging Heroes now has a VERY solid foundation to work from - I'm looking forward to seeing what they end up doing with it.
stonefox wrote: Has someone made an easily identifiable set of pictures of all the models with free upgrades that were unlocked? It's really confusing trying to match the list of names with the figures involved, especially since they don't even use the same full name.
Well I've messaged them about the pledge level. Hopefully it's something we can "fix in post" (ie. sort out with the pledge manager).
Kroothawk wrote: Well, I don't think the hostility against Raging Heroes and me was valid or helpful.
It was, in fact, shameful. As I said in my first post after this thing kicked off, this thread is easily the most shameful I've seen in Dakka's history. The amount of bellyaching over nothing was nothing short of extraordinary.
The amount of head in sand in this thread was nothing short of extraordinary!
Still, as already noted, who cares?
And 'shameful'?
I think calling anything in here shameful is, in fact, what is shameful!
Actually, I don't really.
It is all good in the end - and I really look forward to RH's actually game set in this world.
And I REALLY look forward to RH's aliens, because when they give these girls something to fight, other than other girls, then we'll be cooking with gas!
RiTides wrote: Kroot, we got it... It did well, you thought it eventually would, check . Fact is both sides are valid, and I think all are happy this did well! Just enjoy it
Well, I don't think the hostility against Raging Heroes and me was valid or helpful. I think the hostile tone in this thread was not worthy of Dakka. That's why I stress that false claims are now proven false. That the panic was uncalled for. And that posters and mods should think twice to let such a hostile thread happen again.
This thread was hardly any more hostile than any Mantic threads became, and it was downright convivial compared to the Through The Breach thread. You claim that the negative comments were not constructive, yet RH responded by addressing those comments and it improved their kickstarter tremendously. Seems kind of constructive.
I guess that's what happens when you recruit "Raging Heralds" and encourage "Raging Fanboys"! (Their words, not mine! )
What did I ever do to you, Alph?
Well that's obviously personal, since I'm the only one labeled Raging Fanboy to my knowledge. (To be fair, I only went with that because I got caught up in everyone adding Raging X after their names as a joke midway through, and Raging Hemorrhoids was already taken )
I think I've been very reasonable in this thread, though.
Now, obviously some things could have been done better, and some people were oblivious supporters, but I think that there were people who were in the extreme on both sides of the aisle in this thread. Some folks weren't going to have anything nice to say no matter what happened. And some people were going to blindly argue against any complaint, no matter how valid or well-founded. But most of us managed to stay civil and reasonable in our discourse. (Although, now that I think about it, this campaign did change my opinion on a few Dakkaites.)
I'll admit that I'm still confused by some peoples' positions on certain issues, but as I've said over and over, this was my first Kickstarter experience, so I came into this with some (apparently) weird notions. And several apparent gaps in my knowledge. I hadn't realized there would be some fierce argument, or some debate over what was "expected" from the Kickstarter creators. Is there an inevitable "tears and recriminations" phase that we're now moving into? If so, I blame Ouze for everything!
Nothing personal intended - I was just saying that some people may have taken the "Raging" thing too literally, and maybe on 'both sides of the fence" - though I will say that there wasn't really a 'side' that wanted anything less than a 'win' for RH here!
Order Breakdown, according to Kenny's Skykadia calculator:
EB Commander Box ($230), US shipping ($23), Additional funds ($65) - Total $318
Estimated Retail Value - $684.50
Estimated Savings - $389.50, or 56.9%
Not a bad haul! When the game comes out, I want to eventually have an army for all three factions, but since I've been trying to build an IG force with a looser, fictional-Vietnam sort of feel, I thought that the Jailbirds were going to fit better.
I'm going in pretty light. If I had gone in alone, it would have been making sure that all my picks were in wave 1 and thus in my hands ASAP. However, my friend has other plans, so we'll pay for wave shipping instead. Splitting the freebies will be an exercise in diplomacy. I might just add via the pledge manager to buy peace.
So far as me, I don't think I can say whether or not they would have been more successful with a different strategy. I do know from my own anecdotal personal experience Kicktraq isn't too accurate for the first 2 days, gets pretty accurate for the rest of the run - up until the last day, and then on the last day just plain breaks: it doesn't seem to yet be able to account for the last minute bump most projects seem to get. We'll see if they tweak the algorithm over time.
I've very conflicted by the project myself for reasons that are wholly personal. I don't actually play 40k, not in the sense that most of you guys would have. I still have yet to pick up the 6th edition rulebook, I haven't rolled a dice in months, and i feel no inclination to do either thing at all right now. So it seems foolish to dump any more money into even more miniatures that will simply get tacked onto my probably decade long backlog. You know I got a Chapterhouse Storm Raven extension when it came out, and haven't gotten my Storm Raven out of the box yet? Stuff like that.
Although I vacillated quite a bit (dropping my pledge entirely at one point) I still wound up dropping .75 warhounds nearly $300 though, which to me is not an insignificant amount of money to spend on the hobby even when I was hot on it. To decide to spend it even when my ardor has cooled must speak to the quality of the sculpts, I imagine. Or maybe it's just Shiny Syndrome writ large.
I also found the herald's communication a bit lacking. I'm not giving them a hard time, honestly, since obviously I don't know the behind the scenes stuff - maybe they were asking questions left and right that never got answered, who knows? - but it felt to me that they didn't add any more value to the project then someone who was simply reading the updates. It sure seemed like the updates were rarely posted by a herald, for example, and i think in an ideal world they'd be posted nearly immediately. I think they could improve this first by co-ordinating better with the next kickstarter by making sure they cover all time zones, cover all the sites, and so forth, and having a co-ordinated listserv for the heralds. One thing I'd like to see; and I'm not sure this is possible, is manufacturers/vendors have a shared logon for Dakka that they can alternate between timezones for projects like this. I imagine the possible drama surrounding this might make Lego leery of allowing it for the small benefit it offers, but a thought.
The other take-away I have from this project .... I wasn't going to say this; as I was discussing it privately with someone earlier. But since it came up organically and perhaps other people may feel the same, I guess I will. I don't think I'm going to read the Dakka comments for any kickstarters I follow from now on. I have no real problem with constructive criticism or legitimate beefs; mindless fawning serves no one well and the discussion on proportion especially was ultimately, I bet, very productive to the end result. But there was a distinct flavor throughout this whole thread of a few dedicated people essentially complaining about nothing and a totally weird singling out of specific posters for vitriol that I really didn't think was warranted. I've only participated in a few kickstarters so maybe this is common and I've just not stumbled into it before - I didn't get into Dreadball or Robotech the other recent big ones - but there were definitely a few.... negative evangelists whose presence in the thread seemed solely to try and throw dirt on the project, people who posted they had dropped their pledge dozens of pages ago but still hung around kvetching. I'm sure somewhere Jervis is facepalming and saying out loud "bro, it's not just this project" but this is definitely how I perceived it to go down. Maybe I'm wrong, that's how it felt to me at the end.
I eagerly await Buzzsaw's final breakdown, and to see just how right people wound up being about the deadlines slipping for shipping stuff (my guess is nothing will be on time but I'm OK with that or I wouldn't have pledged). Ultimately, this is an incredibly exciting time to be in the hobby, I think - quality models abound to fit many more aesthetics and the future seems bright for even more.
Alpharius wrote: Nothing personal intended - I was just saying that some people may have taken the "Raging" thing too literally, and maybe on 'both sides of the fence" - though I will say that there wasn't really a 'side' that wanted anything less than a 'win' for RH here!
Agreed, people will get passionate about projects they care about a lot (and which involve their money, like a kickstarter), but it can go too far.
However, that also means that to write off valid criticism as "shameful" is... going too far! I was on vacation and missed the start of this thread, so maybe it was worse at the beginning, but from what I saw there was nothing worse said than about anything else here that people are passionate here about... and it was from both sides!
Importantly, as Alpharius says: "there wasn't really a 'side' that wanted anything less than a 'win' for RH here!"
Sometimes people are passionate about a project because they're interested / want it to be better / etc. I'm really glad it did well, as should most people who were following this. However, a reasonably strong finish doesn't dismiss criticism... it just means, if nothing else, that it was able to overcome whatever obstacles it faced to reach a very solid goal. So that's why I say, just enjoy it
For an example of a Really rough kickstarter thread, check out Through the Breach, as referenced above. Or Mantic, from the viewpoint of a Mantic supporter (and those are some that I have been critical of, as well). In the end, it shouldn't be personal, and we should endeavor to keep our criticisms (and praise! although that is rarer to see ) to the product/project... rather than each other.
I don't have a list to post yet, as my selections keep changing every time I run through the pledge calculator, But, I need to add more to my pledge to get the werewolves (and I even went for an EB General pledge).
And, I have to agree with Ouze. I think I will also be sitting out from any further DakkaDakka Kickstarter project threads.
I also found the herald's communication a bit lacking. I'm not giving them a hard time, honestly, since obviously I don't know the behind the scenes stuff - maybe they were asking questions left and right that never got answered, who knows? - but it felt to me that they didn't add any more value to the project then someone who was simply reading the updates. It sure seemed like the updates were rarely posted by a herald, for example, and i think in an ideal world they'd be posted nearly immediately. I think they could improve this first by co-ordinating better with the next kickstarter by making sure they cover all time zones, cover all the sites, and so forth, and having a co-ordinated listserv for the heralds. One thing I'd like to see; and I'm not sure this is possible, is manufacturers/vendors have a shared logon for Dakka that they can alternate between timezones for projects like this. I imagine the possible drama surrounding this might make Lego leery of allowing it for the small benefit it offers, but a thought.
I'll field this. The one or two questions we didn't get answered for you guys in 24 hours or less either didn't get answered or didn't have answers, or in one case we were informed that it'd be addressed in an upcoming update and asked not to say anything about it. RH did not really give the Heralds word on updates before you guys got them, so after that it's just a matter of who's copy paste kung fu is strongest and fastest, for a VERY high intensity KS like this one, where people seemed to be watching like a hawk getting to it a second after any one else for whatever reason meant the update would be up here already. We're enthusiastic volunteers, not magic.
Speaking of Herald stuff I have word from RH on a variety of things, H.B.M.C in particular will be interested to see this, and sadly I have to break some cyber zombie fan's hearts.
First, please keep in mind that all of this is still conditional as we have to make firmer plans and study their implication on the business and on the production.
- Regarding the Paypal option: we will definitely keep it open for a few days after we get back. This means that people will have at least 2 weeks to use it, starting now.
- Regarding the survey: We are still considering several options here, so it means that every one can take some time to refine their choices. There will definitely be a Pledge Manager, and backers will be able to up their pledge amount if they so do wish. They will also be able to pay for the Shipping at that time, as we see that quite a few forgot to do it. Also, we will be trying to find a way for backers to be able to have flexibility in how they spend their pledge, as the several waves of releases are revealed. This means that we will probably need the backers to complete a first survey that will help us to assess what miniatures have the most success and lan our production accordingly, but still leave room for backers to tweak their choices as the production advances. Again, please keep in mind that this is our wish: what we would LIKE to do, but we don't know if it will be possible to implement and manage it that way.
-Regarding the Unit of Cyberzombies, Freya and Zab: what we can tell you at this point is that all these minis will make it into production at some point in time. However, the production load is so heavy right now, that we cannot commit to anything specific at this point in time... If they do become available, it will probably be as add-ons that backers will be able to get with their pledge funds.
I hope this helps a bit.
We need to try and stay away from the project for a few days in order to be able to rest and refresh our minds for the next challenges.
Nevertheless, it is possible that we look in from time to time, so if you have questions or comments you can certainly put them up here: if we have answers at the ready, we'll be happy to share.
Also, just so you know, even if, at this point, we are really tired, our brains are already bubbling with new ideas inspired by all the feedback you gave us throughout this Kickstarter... Particularly ideas about the game...
Ouze wrote: The other take-away I have from this project .... I wasn't going to say this; as I was discussing it privately with someone earlier. But since it came up organically and perhaps other people may feel the same, I guess I will. I don't think I'm going to read the Dakka comments for any kickstarters I follow from now on. I have no real problem with constructive criticism or legitimate beefs; mindless fawning serves no one well and the discussion on proportion especially was ultimately, I bet, very productive to the end result. But there was a distinct flavor throughout this whole thread of a few dedicated people essentially complaining about nothing and a totally weird singling out of specific posters for vitriol that I really didn't think was warranted. I've only participated in a few kickstarters so maybe this is common and I've just not stumbled into it before - I didn't get into Dreadball or Robotech the other recent big ones - but there were definitely a few.... negative evangelists whose presence in the thread seemed solely to try and throw dirt on the project, people who posted they had dropped their pledge dozens of pages ago but still hung around kvetching. I'm sure somewhere Jervis is facepalming and saying out loud "bro, it's not just this project" but this is definitely how I perceived it to go down. Maybe I'm wrong, that's how it felt to me at the end.
As someone who has funded a lot of kickstarters I can say that the kind of behaviour you are descibing was completely new to me as I started reading this thread. I've predominately only funded video game projects up until now so I'm still not sure if it is Dakka related thing or a minature related behaviour as I did notice that there is a huge difference between how minature and video game kickstarters are run.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: I'll field this. The one or two questions we didn't get answered for you guys in 24 hours or less either didn't get answered or didn't have answers, or in one case we were informed that it'd be addressed in an upcoming update and asked not to say anything about it. RH did not really give the Heralds word on updates before you guys got them, so after that it's just a matter of who's copy paste kung fu is strongest and fastest
Yeah, sounds about right. I hope you didn't take what I said as some kind of slam; I took some pains to try and make sure it wasn't presented that way. Rather, I think this is an opportunity for their future kickstarters - once they have this herald program, they need to leverage it better. They should also maybe consider some exclusive updates for the heralds to post a day or two before it's announced to the public (non-backer) updates to help keep interest high. Also, nothing wrong with having the heralds answer "this is TBD/this will be addressed in a future update" - certainly I'd take that as a better answer then silence, since we all accept that as this specific kickstarter ballooned things were pretty fluid. A lot of useful lessons here from the minor quibbles.
I think their decision concerning the remaining locked unit is the right one. I know my friend would have loved himself some cyber-zombies (well, who doesn't, really?), but if it meant the workload was too big, so be it. They paid for the art, people liked it, so fo' sure it'll be used in the not too distant future. Anything that can keep the delays down and not overstretch them is a good thing.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I think their decision concerning the remaining locked unit is the right one. I know my friend would have loved himself some cyber-zombies (well, who doesn't, really?), but if it meant the workload was too big, so be it. They paid for the art, people liked it, so fo' sure it'll be used in the not too distant future. Anything that can keep the delays down and not overstretch them is a good thing.
I agree. I would much rather have the minis we are getting in a manner somewhat in line sync with the timeline we've been given than have extra baubles at the cost of unknown delays. Besides, I'm sure we'll get these minis eventually!
Four months ago, I put $300 into my Paypal account just for this Kickstarter. That money is still there. $15 for 5 would be a reasonable RRP price (slightly above the current price of DE Wyches/Warriors), but I'm not paying that for unknown sculpts in an untested material at an unknown time, without further discount and with shipping charges on top. And $21.50 for 5 RRP puts Raging Heroes beyond the point where I'd support them "for the cause".
I've backed several kickstarters, this was the only one I dropped out of. Also, apart from a few doubts with Deadzone it's the only one I've commented negatively on.
I was honestly in and out on this project, higher each return until the lulus. If the hadn't been children with a strangely written rule in a miniatures only kickstarter I would have gone big.
I like to have a laugh at Raging Heroes, after three delayed orders I think I have a feel for how they work. Great minis, lazy company.
Really, they should have thanked those who did more than laugh, the ones who actually took the time to point out what they were doing wrong and helped them get it right.
-Regarding the Unit of Cyberzombies, Freya and Zab: what we can tell you at this point is that all these minis will make it into production at some point in time. However, the production load is so heavy right now, that we cannot commit to anything specific at this point in time... If they do become available, it will probably be as add-ons that backers will be able to get with their pledge funds.
I understand this as being still undecided. Why would they say that the Cyberzombies might be bought with pledge funds if definitely not available?
Joyboozer wrote: I've backed several kickstarters, this was the only one I dropped out of. Also, apart from a few doubts with Deadzone it's the only one I've commented negatively on.
I was honestly in and out on this project, higher each return until the lulus. If the hadn't been children with a strangely written rule in a miniatures only kickstarter I would have gone big.
I like to have a laugh at Raging Heroes, after three delayed orders I think I have a feel for how they work. Great minis, lazy company.
Really, they should have thanked those who did more than laugh, the ones who actually took the time to point out what they were doing wrong and helped them get it right.
I'm sorry for you as I had quite the contrary experience with Raging Heroes. Ordered twice with them on weekends and had my items within the same week. Outstanding Quality too!
And as I read that some are concerned about the Quality of the "resin", since the banner of Eleriel & Alaniel is in resin as they write, I must say that it Looks more like plastic to me. The material is not brittle at all and seems to be quite strong and with well defined edges and flashfree.
Oh and as for the rules for the Lulu's IMHO they wrote that rule for political correctness only. If such things disturb you....well then you did well to drop out.
Funds gathers, and now my wait begins.
It shall not end until it ships.
I shall take no armies, hold no brush, paint no minis.
I shall wear no black t's and win no tournies.
I shall live and die via US post. I am the dork in the darkness.
I am the watcher at the mail box.
I am the nerd that guards the realms of KS.
I pledge my life and honor to the Kickstart's Watch,
for this night and all the nights to come.
The other take-away I have from this project .... I wasn't going to say this; as I was discussing it privately with someone earlier. But since it came up organically and perhaps other people may feel the same, I guess I will. I don't think I'm going to read the Dakka comments for any kickstarters I follow from now on. I have no real problem with constructive criticism or legitimate beefs; mindless fawning serves no one well and the discussion on proportion especially was ultimately, I bet, very productive to the end result. But there was a distinct flavor throughout this whole thread of a few dedicated people essentially complaining about nothing and a totally weird singling out of specific posters for vitriol that I really didn't think was warranted. I've only participated in a few kickstarters so maybe this is common and I've just not stumbled into it before - I didn't get into Dreadball or Robotech the other recent big ones - but there were definitely a few.... negative evangelists whose presence in the thread seemed solely to try and throw dirt on the project, people who posted they had dropped their pledge dozens of pages ago but still hung around kvetching. I'm sure somewhere Jervis is facepalming and saying out loud "bro, it's not just this project" but this is definitely how I perceived it to go down. Maybe I'm wrong, that's how it felt to me at the end.
The other take-away I have from this project .... I wasn't going to say this; as I was discussing it privately with someone earlier. But since it came up organically and perhaps other people may feel the same, I guess I will. I don't think I'm going to read the Dakka comments for any kickstarters I follow from now on. I have no real problem with constructive criticism or legitimate beefs; mindless fawning serves no one well and the discussion on proportion especially was ultimately, I bet, very productive to the end result. But there was a distinct flavor throughout this whole thread of a few dedicated people essentially complaining about nothing and a totally weird singling out of specific posters for vitriol that I really didn't think was warranted. I've only participated in a few kickstarters so maybe this is common and I've just not stumbled into it before - I didn't get into Dreadball or Robotech the other recent big ones - but there were definitely a few.... negative evangelists whose presence in the thread seemed solely to try and throw dirt on the project, people who posted they had dropped their pledge dozens of pages ago but still hung around kvetching. I'm sure somewhere Jervis is facepalming and saying out loud "bro, it's not just this project" but this is definitely how I perceived it to go down. Maybe I'm wrong, that's how it felt to me at the end.
Well....not to be that guy...but I dropped 1k......~looks around nervously~ so I certainly hope the negative opinions expressed by those that hated the project are just that...opinions. I'd really like my 1000 to go to something that looks awesome. If the stuff I have bought in the past is any indication, I should be pleased. I'll let you know in 2 years time when this all actually is shipped out
rayphoton wrote: Well....not to be that guy...but I dropped 1k......~looks around nervously~ so I certainly hope the negative opinions expressed by those that hated the project are just that...opinions. I'd really like my 1000 to go to something that looks awesome. If the stuff I have bought in the past is any indication, I should be pleased. I'll let you know in 2 years time when this all actually is shipped out
This is an excellent attitude
As one of those that dropped their pledge with12 or so days remaining but stuck around in the thread I have to say it was partially because I was still considering testing the company out with the $15 pledge like I did with AoW. However the lack of actual renders for some of the items I was considering (artillery or troops) combined with the tone of some of their updates kept me from recommitting even at this level.
My impressions are my impressions. I'm not saying anyone has to feel the same way. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't share my opinion. And the "negativity" (i.e. constructive criticism) on this wasn't nearly as heated I've seen on several other KS's.
Valhallan42nd wrote: Funds gathers, and now my wait begins.
It shall not end until it ships.
I shall take no armies, hold no brush, paint no minis.
I shall wear no black t's and win no tournies.
I shall live and die via US post. I am the dork in the darkness.
I am the watcher at the mail box.
I am the nerd that guards the realms of KS.
I pledge my life and honor to the Kickstart's Watch,
for this night and all the nights to come.
Agreed, Hulk! Also, for those singling out "Dakka" in this... often, comments on Kickstarter itself can be as "bad" or worse (either in the "no criticism allowed" slant, or in being overly critical). Perils of the internet, I suppose...! And as stated, this wasn't even as bad as some campaigns... I keep thinking I must have missed something because the comments I saw were really not that abrasive compared to things I've seen in Mantic / Through the Breach / other campaigns.
Anyway, hoping for the best outcome for those who spent big on this and for myself in the other campaigns I have similarly committed even though I didn't go in on this one. It's an exciting time for miniatures projects from small-to-mid-sized companies, to be sure!
rayphoton wrote: Well....not to be that guy...but I dropped 1k......~looks around nervously~ so I certainly hope the negative opinions expressed by those that hated the project are just that...opinions. I'd really like my 1000 to go to something that looks awesome. If the stuff I have bought in the past is any indication, I should be pleased. I'll let you know in 2 years time when this all actually is shipped out
This is an excellent attitude
As one of those that dropped their pledge with12 or so days remaining but stuck around in the thread I have to say it was partially because I was still considering testing the company out with the $15 pledge like I did with AoW. However the lack of actual renders for some of the items I was considering (artillery or troops) combined with the tone of some of their updates kept me from recommitting even at this level.
My impressions are my impressions. I'm not saying anyone has to feel the same way. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't share my opinion. And the "negativity" (i.e. constructive criticism) on this wasn't nearly as heated I've seen on several other KS's.
The constructive criticism was actually very helpful, since Raging Heroes attempted to comply with it during the Kickstarter, and actually seemed to get better results from doing so. Some of the "negativity" failed to rise above the level of vile invective, of course, which is about par for the course for any forum thread, really. I was kind of surprised with how willing they were to accommodate the backers, since I'm used to companies never bothering to listen to consumer support at all.
I was particularly grateful to the brothers who testified about Raging Heroes having been late in shipping them merchandise. It enabled me to assess the situation with eyes open. I still bought from them, but at least now if my shipment is late, I'll be able to stay calm about it, since it will all be within expected boundaries.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: I think success cannot be measured by the amount they got, or the percentage they blasted their objective by. 12K was unrealistic for such a project.
In my mind, success will be measured by the future take-off of the line and the game. If neither happen, then we'll have to reckon that the kickstarter was a failure. If only the line of minis survives and no game, then I'd call it a half success because they can sell their product, but will ultimately be dependent of other factors out of their control for continued volumes of sales.
Trust me, I want nothing more than an alternative to GW. I understand the place GW has in the market, but alternatives are always a good thing. Since my household is a DINK, even these boutique prices won't turn me off if the game is, say, platoon sized. Heck, even company sized over time would be fine by me. But they need that game, in my opinion, more than three more lines of minis. Even if the game is bare-bones, focusing only on these units, with more expansions later on.
The game will be the measuring stick, I say.
I honestly wouldn't put much stock in their "game". The market is flooded with sci-fi skirmish titles, both out and upcoming. It's a large financial investment to get a ruleset up and running, and with RH being French, you'd expect that the rules would first have to be written in French, then playtested, then translated into English and have the living hell proofread out of them by competently bilingual people. That's a huge investment of time and money. There's a reason, after all that Felix eventually decided that Warthrone wouldn't be getting released in English.
I feel the same way about the Dreamforge and Anvil "games" as well, FWIW - and the same again if Vic decides that she wants a game to go with her Not-Guard.
I think a better solution would be for some kind of GURPS option, almost. A solid ruleset for sci-fi skirmish battles, open licence (similar to what WotC did with D20 years back) then used in a universal manner by all the small companies. Let's say Mantic decided to go this way with the Warpath 2.0 ruleset, which I've not played, but seems to have good feedback. Then companies like RH, Dreamforge, Vic, etc etc could essentially release their own "Worldbook" with the base rules reprinted as well as their own faction's rules and fluff included. If you know one system, you know them all. - and then each company caretakes their own version. If you want to play Kurganovas vs Eisenkern, then if your opponent agrees, then go for it. (Bearing in mind Dreamforge may not be balanced against Kurganovas) If not, it's Kurganovas vs Iron Empire.
Seriously, if several of these smaller companies wanted to get together and grow the hobby a little, this would be a good way to go about it, they'd then all be in cooperation as well as competition - which is a good thing considering the number of failed games over the years. Put some money in, get a couple of quality guys to put together a ruleset - Alessio, Priestley, Chambers, Hoare, Thornton are all out there doing work for hire.
So yeah, I don't think a mythical, theoretical game means anything to this kickstarter's success. If they get their model range off the ground and it sells well at retail, then they'll have achieved longer-term success.
prankster wrote: It's not just a case of wanting the figures at the discounted prices or not. There's a number of issues with the way that RH ran the kickstarter that they'll hopefully sort out for their next one. Getting these right would have made the final total higher than it was.
Sure, I think they could have done better, but I do not believe it would have brought them to the million dollar mark like I've seen some people claim.
The RH KS was incredibly badly run. I think they achieved amazing success almost in spite of themselves, and based heavily on the reputation for quality models that they have built up over the past several years. I think they could easily have gotten an additional 100k if it were better run, and possibly more. The freebies should have been stacked far earlier, which would have then gotten more people on board during the lull in the middle, with everything in the (very late) roadmap unlocked at the end. there were a lot of people who dropped out or down in their pledges - this could have been avoided, which I believe would have resulted in a significantly higher total.
I hope that they decide to completely fulfil their obligations for this KS before launching another, then take their time and take on board all the lessons learned from this campaign. If they do so, the next one could/should do far better. They've proved themselves as quality producers, albeit with a reputation for lateness. If they prove themselves as capable in the fulfilment of this KS, it will be a huge plus for the next.
Bones and Bombshell miniatures are clearly intended to be used only as pieces in other games (although, it must be pointed out that Reaper does have a few rules sets that it's miniatures can be used in), to a far greater degree then TGG. The TGG line includes a number of exotic options that have little to no use in the dominant game system, because they are so infused with flavor specific to the TGG setting (the Lulus being the ultimate example).
Let's be real. They're ratling sniper analogues with a bit of badly-written "no, not really!!!" fluff to avoid child-soldier criticism. The "preview rules" for them are the kind of fluff anyone can make up on the spot. Ducks and Spades.
RiTides wrote: Kroot, we got it... It did well, you thought it eventually would, check . Fact is both sides are valid, and I think all are happy this did well! Just enjoy it
Well, I don't think the hostility against Raging Heroes and me was valid or helpful. I think the hostile tone in this thread was not worthy of Dakka. That's why I stress that false claims are now proven false. That the panic was uncalled for. And that posters and mods should think twice to let such a hostile thread happen again.
You appear to have lost some of your sense of perspective, such as it is. It was no worse than any Mantic KS thread, in my opinion. The difference is that here you played the part of Raging Fanboi cheerleader as opposed to (rabidly) hostile critic. An even perspective is a wonderful thing to have. That means praise and criticism - both when warranted. This campaign and RH deserved both at various times, and I felt got it. Every significant thread in N&R seems to have a degree of bitching, some warranted and some ridiculous, just as they have warranted and ridiculous levels of fandom. This one is far longer than most, and as a result got more of both.
It was, in fact, shameful. As I said in my first post after this thing kicked off, this thread is easily the most shameful I've seen in Dakka's history. The amount of bellyaching over nothing was nothing short of extraordinary.
You've never participated in a thread about GW products? Pots and Kettles.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote: Nothing personal intended - I was just saying that some people may have taken the "Raging" thing too literally, and maybe on 'both sides of the fence" - though I will say that there wasn't really a 'side' that wanted anything less than a 'win' for RH here!
Extreme arguments/opinions/passions from one side of any argument will always trigger equally extreme reactions from the opposite side - resulting in a polarising effect. Generally not that useful to anyone.
I also found the herald's communication a bit lacking. I'm not giving them a hard time, honestly, since obviously I don't know the behind the scenes stuff - maybe they were asking questions left and right that never got answered, who knows? - but it felt to me that they didn't add any more value to the project then someone who was simply reading the updates. It sure seemed like the updates were rarely posted by a herald, for example, and i think in an ideal world they'd be posted nearly immediately. I think they could improve this first by co-ordinating better with the next kickstarter by making sure they cover all time zones, cover all the sites, and so forth, and having a co-ordinated listserv for the heralds. One thing I'd like to see; and I'm not sure this is possible, is manufacturers/vendors have a shared logon for Dakka that they can alternate between timezones for projects like this. I imagine the possible drama surrounding this might make Lego leery of allowing it for the small benefit it offers, but a thought.
Not to rag on the Heralds, but the updates for the front page of the thread were hamstrung by RH's decision to post a new thread on the KS themselves. They're not dedicated forumites, so they probably didn't realise how much of a bad thing this was. The result was that Kroot, who has stated that he's not a Herald, but is clearly the chief RH fan on this forum was putting tohether the updates, then passing them to MajorTom to update the OP. This adds an additional delay in getting that update as one has to get to the other.
I imagine that communication to the Heralds would be just as sporadic and incomplete as it was to the rest of us over the course of the campaign, and combine that with no real consistent update times and people's need to work, sleep and sometimes spend time away from the computer with family, etc, it's understandable. As an unpaid, volunteer position, you can't really expect them to be online and ready all the time, when really a couple of hours a day on the computer is a more than reasonable time expectation. Hell, I sometimes get an important PM or email while I'm on the computer that I don't even see for 30-120mins after it's arrival - and that's when I'm using the comp.
Really, I believe that if Kroot had (been able to) start(ed) the thread rather than RH themselves, just like ScarletSquig in the Mantic threads, we would have seen the updates as regularly as can reasonably be expected in a forum thread.
Automatically Appended Next Post: At worst, Melissa, you'll have to wait 12-24 months for the Kurganova troops to hit retail with the final sculpts and then buy or not buy. Better to forget about them for several months now and look in when there's something to actually see or buy.
I don't really care whether or not they "succeeded" according to some vague definition of what "success" is beyond meeting their stated goals (and exceeding them even)...
... I just wish they made something I wanted to buy. I'm still waiting on the redo of the Kurganovas...
I think a better solution would be for some kind of GURPS option, almost. A solid ruleset for sci-fi skirmish battles, open licence (similar to what WotC did with D20 years back) then used in a universal manner by all the small companies. Let's say Mantic decided to go this way with the Warpath 2.0 ruleset, which I've not played, but seems to have good feedback. Then companies like RH, Dreamforge, Vic, etc etc could essentially release their own "Worldbook" with the base rules reprinted as well as their own faction's rules and fluff included. If you know one system, you know them all. - and then each company caretakes their own version. If you want to play Kurganovas vs Eisenkern, then if your opponent agrees, then go for it. (Bearing in mind Dreamforge may not be balanced against Kurganovas) If not, it's Kurganovas vs Iron Empire.
Seriously, if several of these smaller companies wanted to get together and grow the hobby a little, this would be a good way to go about it, they'd then all be in cooperation as well as competition - which is a good thing considering the number of failed games over the years. Put some money in, get a couple of quality guys to put together a ruleset - Alessio, Priestley, Chambers, Hoare, Thornton are all out there doing work for hire.
Azazelx wrote: I think a better solution would be for some kind of GURPS option, almost. A solid ruleset for sci-fi skirmish battles, open licence (similar to what WotC did with D20 years back) then used in a universal manner by all the small companies. Let's say Mantic decided to go this way with the Warpath 2.0 ruleset, which I've not played, but seems to have good feedback. Then companies like RH, Dreamforge, Vic, etc etc could essentially release their own "Worldbook" with the base rules reprinted as well as their own faction's rules and fluff included. If you know one system, you know them all. - and then each company caretakes their own version. If you want to play Kurganovas vs Eisenkern, then if your opponent agrees, then go for it. (Bearing in mind Dreamforge may not be balanced against Kurganovas) If not, it's Kurganovas vs Iron Empire.
Seriously, if several of these smaller companies wanted to get together and grow the hobby a little, this would be a good way to go about it, they'd then all be in cooperation as well as competition - which is a good thing considering the number of failed games over the years. Put some money in, get a couple of quality guys to put together a ruleset - Alessio, Priestley, Chambers, Hoare, Thornton are all out there doing work for hire.
This is, in a word, brilliant.
I agree. Balkanisation of rulesets is a weakness, not a strength. While some games do have different needs - you'd have a hard time playing Epic with Necromunda's rules or vice versa - the less rulesets there are the more effort can be devoted to optimising and improving them, and the easier it will be to find another player familiar with the same rules.
Ouze wrote: I'd also love the idea of an open source ruleset; but I have to wonder how many people play for the lore, not the ease of play/etc from the rules.
I think that most people who play for the lore play for their armies lore, with less thought for their opponents' lore, so I think this wouldn't be as big of an issue.
I hadn't fully realized what Azazelx had been proposing before my third read through, but yes, yes, my god yes. An open source ruleset would be like a godsend, and I would love to support a project like that! Seriously, I was just thinking about how awesome it would be to have a game that didn't require you to use models from any specific manufacturer.
I'd love to see something worked into the system, though, to give some kind of mechanical advantage, however slight, to armies which were completed. Just for my own sake. I derive the majority of my hobby entertainment from how the table looks during the game, and unpainted minis put a serious crimp in that.
Oh, and Alex, bonus points for applying the term 'Balkanization' to minis rules.
Ouze wrote: I'd also love the idea of an open source ruleset; but I have to wonder how many people play for the lore, not the ease of play/etc from the rules.
I have an idea for that. Do it like RPGs. Or more accurately do it like Az suggested. Like GURPS. So we have the core rule set. Book X. Book X contains the basic rules for Sci Fi war gaming, and includes a couple army lists from various systems and some generic ones you can play with literally everything. The book's simple, easy to understand (Unlike GURPS which is calculus in disguise) but if you play a particular system, like say we're all Raging Heroes fans, you go to your FLGS and pick up the TGG Splatbook, which contains all the lore, special rules and army lists for the five TGG armies. (IE, KST, Jail Birds, DE and Battle Space Nuns). Larger systems like Iron Core(with it's 8+ factions) might be in multiple volumes. Or have actual individual faction codex equivalents available along with more special rules and more in-depth fluff/lore.
Its certainly an intriguing idea. In regard to the Vic Minis range, I have focused on modelling, not rules. Rules might happen in the future, but how many sci-fi skirmish games does the industry really need. I am not a rules writer, my first love is modelling and background, Andy Hoare has written some great fluff for my regiments. If there was a system where all that could be integrated with other ranges, I'd be very interested. Consider me the first company to throw the hat in the ring.
Azazelx wrote: You appear to have lost some of your sense of perspective, such as it is. It was no worse than any Mantic KS thread, in my opinion. The difference is that here you played the part of Raging Fanboi cheerleader as opposed to (rabidly) hostile critic.
Thanks for your rabidly hostile personal attack. Dakka needs more personal attacks like yours, so that everyone who has not the exact same opinion as you is in constant fear to post it. Hope the mods appreciate this.
I feel the majority of the criticism they received was both on point and helpful, at the very least sent them the messages of what their audience really liked, instead of what they assumed their audience liked.
The majority of posters on Dakka was throwing mud at them, but that was not the majority of pledgers.
And for instance, it was planned from the start to release all announced miniatures if possible.
That it worked out was not the result of panic and mud slinging on forums, but of original plans and enough funds.
And I am personally convinced that the mud slinging did more harm to the campaign than anything claimed by the mud slingers.
About how much would the kickstarter exclusives and the freebies fetch on ebay once it's released? I'm considering using the paypal option for Lieutenant tier just to have enough of an IG army and sell off most of the freebies to pay for the initial donation/pledge.
That also brings up the question as to why anyone would buy higher tier pledges when they can just get repeated Lieutenant tier and have effectively double their money's worth.
Kroothawk wrote: Which critisism and which audience do you mean?
The majority of posters on Dakka was throwing mud at them, but that was not the majority of pledgers.
And for instance, it was planned from the start to release all announced miniatures if possible.
That it worked out was not the result of panic and mud slinging on forums, but of original plans and enough funds.
And I am personally convinced that the mud slinging did more harm to the campaign than anything claimed by the mud slingers.
Kroot, this is what I was talking about...
Making a blanket statement about the majority of posters in a thread deciding what they meant, even when they tell you your interpretation is not correct, is not going to go over well. You can certainly disagree, but you should do so on what is written, and not words you put in others mouths.
When we are passionate about a project, or really love it, it is tough to accept criticism of it, especially when we think it is already pretty much perfect. This does not however mean criticism is outright attack with no intent but to damage.
KickStarters are particularly tough to digest because so much rides on support. As you yourself point out, criticism obviously does not neccesarily mean those criticizing are not supporting! If going by most forums and even most KS comment threads in the KS themselves, a lot of it is negative stuff. Either by people with negative things to say, or people aggressively defending leading to an impression of negativity. It does't do much good to say the problem is mud slinging and then react by mudslinging in a tit-for-tat fashion.
Can this be solved?
Not really... People expect different things out of a KS, it is soooooo varied. I may prioritize a good business plan and quality materials above endless freebies. Another person, like Alpharius for example, ascribes a lot of his perceived value to the extras, the bonus of pre-supporting and giving the owners the chance to be profitable for years to come. Another person may take a purely aesthetic approach, or want to support known companies they like.
Am I right? Are they wrong? Who wins this argument?
Nobody is the answer lol.
Chances are, if things escalate in a KS thread, that you and the people on the 'other side' aren't even having the same argument really! Completely different value systems in play... and those different value systems mean what would 'support' the KS may be equally different. If I picture a KS to be a very dynamic and still in flux business plan, I will criticize and pick at everything, not to be an ass, but because I think there is still time to make it perfect in my eyes. That is perfectly legitimate and genuine helpfulness if I believe that is what will help them succeed.
Just as likely, if I know a KS is set in stone, everything is almost already done, that certain things are impossible or too expensive to do, I will try to get people to stop making helpful suggestions to protect both the KS owners and the other potential client from pressure and disappointment over something that won't be changing anyways.
Again, is one person right and the other wrong? NO. They are both really, genuinely trying to help in the way they think is best.
What upsets me about your comment, is that the implication is that a lot of people here just came to hurt this project, maliciously. Maybe a few did. But I know, I know, a lot of them were just doing their best to help. I am upset that either 'side' would look down on the other as the enemy instead of working together, focused not on their differences in method or value, but on love of the product everyone wanted to see succeed.
Sorry about the Sermon, and believe me, it certainly applies to a great many people in this thread. Maybe you guys care maybe you don't, but honestly, if you are willing, think about it. I hope you will find maybe a few friendly and honorable apologies are owed on both 'sides' and realize you are ALL a bunch of great, enthusiastic people. Agree to disagree, and AGREE TO AGREE too!
stonefox wrote: About how much would the kickstarter exclusives and the freebies fetch on ebay once it's released? I'm considering using the paypal option for Lieutenant tier just to have enough of an IG army and sell off most of the freebies to pay for the initial donation/pledge.
That also brings up the question as to why anyone would buy higher tier pledges when they can just get repeated Lieutenant tier and have effectively double their money's worth.
Not much, all the freebies except Drusilla are going to be released at some point.
stonefox wrote: About how much would the kickstarter exclusives and the freebies fetch on ebay once it's released? I'm considering using the paypal option for Lieutenant tier just to have enough of an IG army and sell off most of the freebies to pay for the initial donation/pledge.
That also brings up the question as to why anyone would buy higher tier pledges when they can just get repeated Lieutenant tier and have effectively double their money's worth.
Actually the step above was better, $5 convenience charge in the pledge Vs. $15, also Two lieutenants may be charged $46 to get to the U.S. while one bigger pledge is only $23.
The freebies add up to something like $150 though which becomes doubled by getting another one. Getting a higher pledge just gets the one set of freebies still. Assuming you can get the $value out of doubling up the freebies, you get substantially more value from 2 $150 pledges than 1 $365 pledge.
$330 - 2xLt - $300 in minis + $300 in freebies = $600
$365 - 1xCpt - $370 in minis + $150 in freebies = $520
$80 more value in the 2x Lt's at $35 cheaper. Greatly outweighs the shipping.
Unless my math is off which is possible. Yay pain and pain meds!
Yonan wrote: The freebies add up to something like $150 though which becomes doubled by getting another one. Getting a higher pledge just gets the one set of freebies still. Assuming you can get the $value out of doubling up the freebies, you get substantially more value from 2 $150 pledges than 1 $365 pledge.
$330 - 2xLt - $300 in minis + $300 in freebies = $600
$365 - 1xCpt - $370 in minis + $150 in freebies = $520
$80 more value in the 2x Lt's at $35 cheaper. Greatly outweighs the shipping.
Unless my math is off which is possible. Yay pain and pain meds!
The math in dollars maybe is right, but in terms of marginal utility...
I would say that
utility(1$ of chosen minis) > utility(1$ of not choses minis, in double copy)
Speaking only for myself, the freebies contributed substantially to my deciding to keep my pledge in. . I'm not going to count stuff I think they realistically were already going to do, like head swaps and alternate weapons, but the value proposition of an additional 10 troops/characters and and 4 mini-characters really helped sell it to me
Concur with Ouze, I really liked that I'm getting a couple models for each army from the freebies. I'm really looking forward to painting the IE armor officer for example. I think all total I'm walking away with 17 heroines in the $10-$15 classes, some snipers and three large models. For under $200 shipped I am pretty darn okay with that.
KalashnikovMarine wrote:Not much, all the freebies except Drusilla are going to be released at some point.
Sergio Tulkas wrote:
Yonan wrote: The freebies add up to something like $150 though which becomes doubled by getting another one. Getting a higher pledge just gets the one set of freebies still. Assuming you can get the $value out of doubling up the freebies, you get substantially more value from 2 $150 pledges than 1 $365 pledge.
$330 - 2xLt - $300 in minis + $300 in freebies = $600
$365 - 1xCpt - $370 in minis + $150 in freebies = $520
$80 more value in the 2x Lt's at $35 cheaper. Greatly outweighs the shipping.
Unless my math is off which is possible. Yay pain and pain meds!
The math in dollars maybe is right, but in terms of marginal utility...
I would say that
utility(1$ of chosen minis) > utility(1$ of not choses minis, in double copy)
See, the way I'm thinking is that if I were to get another Lt. pledge, I could sell off the KS exclusive for maybe $10-15 and the additional KS freebies for $5 each, depending on how flooded the market is. Even at that point, I'm still effectively only paying for ~$100 (including shipping) for an extra $150 in minis.
Yeah, the freebies were a real bonus. Even after a financial setback that made me need to lower my pledge, the freebies made it to where I will still be able to field a full army.
Making a blanket statement about the majority of posters in a thread deciding what they meant, even when they tell you your interpretation is not correct, is not going to go over well. You can certainly disagree, but you should do so on what is written, and not words you put in others mouths.
When we are passionate about a project, or really love it, it is tough to accept criticism of it, especially when we think it is already pretty much perfect. This does not however mean criticism is outright attack with no intent but to damage.
Thank you Tom, for your eloquent and accurate statement.
I don’t want to come back into this thread, but MajorTom posted something lengthy and well thought out so I think I should give a response to two parts of it.
MajorTom11 wrote: What upsets me about your comment, is that the implication is that a lot of people here just came to hurt this project, maliciously. Maybe a few did. But I know, I know, a lot of them were just doing their best to help. I am upset that either 'side' would look down on the other as the enemy instead of working together, focused not on their differences in method or value, but on love of the product everyone wanted to see succeed.
I never saw this thread (or this KS campaign) as a place where ‘sides’ existed, where there was some sort of “pro” side and some sort of “anti” side. In fact I don’t think anyone ever wanted this project to not succeed. I also don’t believe, as you said, that people came into it with the intention of being negative. What I did see though was one of the most negative threads I have ever seen at Dakka (and I said as much). I have a sponge like memory for irrelevant trivia, so I tend to remember quite a bit, and I’ve never seen a thread at Dakka quite like this one (I did not choose the word ‘shameful’ lightly – that was the honest opinion I had when reading the thread). Was it intentional? I really doubt it, but I don’t think that matters. What we ended up getting was a dogpile; a whole host of people crying bloody murder over the smallest of things.
I’m not blind however, and I can acknowledge that Raging Heroes of course made mistakes (ever KS does this), but these mistakes get treated as if they are personal slights against the backers. And when I start seeing people say things like “they’re obviously in damage control” I just roll my eyes.
You want to see real damage control? Look at all the crap that’s gone on with the Sedition Wars Kickstarter. Not while it was going on mind you – since it ended, since it shipped, since people started to receive their products.
I find that golden means are often either unhelpful or dishonest. True, not everything has to have a right answer or a correct ‘side’, but at the same time saying “agree to disagree” can be nothing more than a cop-out.
Operating from a rigid standpoint which doesn't allow for the possibility of different values or priorities while still pretending to be actually participating in a conversation is also a cop-out though HBMC.
YOU think they were small things.
YOU think it was crying bloody murder.
The people you are referring to as perpetrators might feel differently about it on both counts.
This thread is what you guys have made of it. If you think it was a crap-fest and shameful, and you posted a great deal in it, look in the mirror. All of you.
The idea that 'something went wrong' here in particular, in terms of structure, is fallacious. The mods are only here to enforce the rules, not to dictate peoples opinions to them. 'They're obviously in damage control mode' is not rule breaking, or rude. It's an opinion, and one not entirely impossible to understand in terms of how a person might arrive at it if they choose to look at things a certain way.
Disregard of the concept of 'agree to disagree' is exactly why this thread got so tense. In my opinion, everyone who thought they were fighting hard for this KS to succeed probably did more damage than any criticism levelled at it. I did not even look at this thread other than to post Kroots updates on the first page, until it was over. I heard a few people calling it a crap-fest and looked at it.
The people calling it a crapfest are acting like it is objective fact that it is everyone else's fault but theirs, like they didn't participate in the problem. That, to me, IS the problem.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. If you come to this or any forum with a desire to enter conversations or debate but no ability or intent to empathize with the reasons WHY someone might see something differently, you are going to have a rough time. You don't have to agree, you just have to make the effort to understand. No one wants to say stupid things. If they feel a certain way it is because they find value in their point of view. If you then crap on that point of view, demean it with no respect for the reasons they held it, you are in fact the one being the aggressor to them personally.
All they did was have an opinion on some models. You and Kroot attack them personally when you talk like that.
That, is not cool as far as I am concerned.
I understand perfectly the standpoint you both seem to share, and I acknowledge the many things which are pointless criticism if you have a lot of knowledge about KSs. A lot of the stuff criticized was done so under the assumption it could still change, when, if you know the cost, time and logistics that already went into it, and the timelines involved, you know most of it has to be locked in as is. It's just business and reality. So I understand why criticism on items like that is super frustrating to 'insiders' or 'experts', because the only possible result is negative feelings on both sides, one frustrated by the pointless debate, the other that their concerns feel ignored. I so get it, trust me. But it doesn't mean they have no right to criticize. It doesn't mean you get to decide what is a 'small thing' to someone else. It also doesn't mean I have to hurt my brain trying to figure out why you would see it the way you do either, it makes sense to your values and I can figure out why you feel that way. It isn't stupid, I just don't agree either. I agree to disagree with you, and then I move on back to focusing on things we do agree about.
KS, like any other PR/Marketing exercises, is all about managing expectations. That is the key to success, and a 'positive' environment. The methods employed in this thread were to attempt to demean and crush expectations not in line with your own (Your being a general term to the reader). That just brings me back to same point as before, it's a bad way to go about things, destined to fail off the bat. I think a lot of people here are guilty to contributing to that. If I was RH, I would be more pissed about how my more enthusiastic supporters decided to treat OTHER CLIENTS than I would be about any amount of criticism. No, criticism wasn't the issue here, whatever amount there is, it doesn't matter. How you handle criticism is all that counts in the selling game, and that was something RH should look at harder next time.
And when I start seeing people say things like “they’re obviously in damage control” I just roll my eyes.
You want to see real damage control? Look at all the crap that’s gone on with the Sedition Wars Kickstarter. Not while it was going on mind you – since it ended, since it shipped, since people started to receive their products.
The exact same statement was used a number of times in the DeadZone campaign, mostly around the initial Orc sculpts. I again assert that the RH thread was no worse than any of the Mantic threads. Both have a few people there who are mostly there just to be negative, but the vast majority of people in both were hoping for the respective campaigns to do well. Oddly, I don't know if I've seen much of what I'd call damage control from SW. It's mostly a deafening silence from over there...
MajorTom11 wrote: The mods are only here to enforce the rules, not to dictate peoples opinions to them.
Then next time, pleace enforce the rules about politeness and personal attacks. Thank you.
MajorTom11 wrote: The people calling it a crapfest are acting like it is objective fact that it is everyone else's fault but theirs, like they didn't participate in the problem. That, to me, IS the problem.
Yes, I admit, I helped updating the first post. I admit, I corrected obviously and now proven false statements. I admit, I flagged personal attacks against me as breaking Dakka rules. Guess that makes me part of offensive behavior. Thank you for pointing that out.
We know you all want to see some sculpts, especially about the Troops.
So below are 2 images showing the Kurganova Heavy Troopers.
As you see them here, they are nearing completion.
They are still missing some accessories, and several details will be refined.
The Trooper in the center of the second image is holding the rifle that is the closest to the definitive form.
All other weapons are just mock-ups and will therefore be upgraded.
Also, here's a conversation we just had on Facebook:
Question: "Is it me or do they look a bit... squashed. Short and thick kind of thing?"
Our Answer: "To have them compatible with the troops of various other gaming systems, they have to be this way, otherwise, they would be either too thin, or too tall. BUT, if you make the image smaller on your computer screen so they they show at 28mm scale, you will see that they are perfect!"
And we've just sent one of them to the 3D printer so we'll be able to show you a prototype next week.
WIP label came after the "negative criticism" if this negative thing pushed them from going from "GW heroic scale" back to what they initially promised, I believe we did them a great service for their future growth, most of us backed them for delivering their concept art in miniature form, based on their correctly (if rather supermodel) proportioned previously released models, not for models that fit GW proportions.
I believe that in contrast to previous kickstarters this one had a far greater proportion of not fanboys joining to the core pledgers, people who had no previous interactions with RH and waited this to be their first interaction, this is of course good for them, but also means that their interactions and the product they will deliver will mark how this potential pool will be converted.
I ended up pledging $15 just so that I'll have some first-hand experience with the product. I've still got no interest in buying an army at worse than Goldsword prices, but if they do end up offering proper plastic for mass infantry for any of the armies I'd like to know what I'm in for with the secondary units.
AlexHolker wrote: Then they shouldn't have been asking for pre-order money.
Kickstarter is not a pre-order.
That is an unconvincing, self-serving lie. Some Kickstarters are not preorders. This is not one of them. If it walks like a preorder and quacks like a preorder, it's a preorder.
AlexHolker wrote: I ended up pledging $15 just so that I'll have some first-hand experience with the product. I've still got no interest in buying an army at worse than Goldsword prices, but if they do end up offering proper plastic for mass infantry for any of the armies I'd like to know what I'm in for with the secondary units.
AlexHolker wrote: Then they shouldn't have been asking for pre-order money.
Kickstarter is not a pre-order.
That is an unconvincing, self-serving lie. Some Kickstarters are not preorders. This is not one of them. If it walks like a preorder and quacks like a preorder, it's a preorder.
Yes, except it isn't. You can treat it as one if you want, but that would be your fault.
From my perspective, if I viewed this one as a preorder, I would not have bothered to the extend I did, nor would I have provided such extensive feedback, I would have dropped my pledge and ignored the company from that point onward, I view this as a true kickstarter and supported them on belief they will keep their promise after the criticism that the troops will be done in line with the concept art and heroines.
AlexHolker wrote: This is not one of them. If it walks like a preorder and quacks like a preorder, it's a preorder.
The KS money was to fund the creation of the moulds, a very capital intensive process. That is not a pre order. Calling people liars over semantics doesn't do much for your credibility.
Not to belittle the concerns for forum decorum, but... this thread doesn't honestly seem all that bad.
Perhaps the mods were exceptionally quick at removing the offending posts, or I simply have a very high threshold for argument, but the only thing that really seemed all that out-of-sorts has been rending of garments in the aftermath.
For a really tendentious and persnickety argument check out HBMC and I disagreeing about the maximum possible contents of a bag (starting here). Pace other claims, that bit of rhetorical grapefruit is from the heights of the Sedition Wars campaign (almost exactly a year ago... ah, memories...).
In any case, this campaign seemed to be received as well as could be expected: what criticism there was seemed fairly well focused on specific issues, frequently containing concrete recommendations. And over the course of the campaign many of those recommendations would be adopted. For myself I exchanged several long messages with RH staff (half a dozen, perhaps?) and was gratified to see many of my suggestions taken to heart.
As for whether or not this campaign, like most campaigns in the miniature/game fields, is a pre-order, it's difficult to see it as anything but. What are the very most basic elements of a pre-order? The three core elements could reasonably be said to be payment made or promised, ahead of time, for a defined good or service.
While there are an infinite number of idiosyncrasies to various schemes of pre-orders, this paradigm would seem to fit rather well. Certainly better then competing descriptions, such as investment, venture capitol or other, more exotic species of exchange.
Finally, I apologize for not having my post mortem up yet, been a busy week and it will hopefully prove worth the wait.
Buzzsaw wrote: Not to belittle the concerns for forum decorum, but... this thread doesn't honestly seem all that bad.
Perhaps the mods were exceptionally quick at removing the offending posts, or I simply have a very high threshold for argument, but the only thing that really seemed all that out-of-sorts has been rending of garments in the aftermath.
Finally, I apologize for not having my post mortem up yet, been a busy week and it will hopefully prove worth the wait.
It always is!
And thanks for taking the time and putting in the effort to write one, of course!
(This is our first update now that we're back, so there's quite a bit of a mish-mash of info here. We'll come back with more details in our next updates.)
We're back!
In fact, we've been back for a few days already, and we've been focussing on re-organizing several aspects of Raging Heroes to properly manage the size of the Kickstarter. We must say that the success of the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy went way beyond our expectations! So, this reorganization is keeping us quite busy for the moment.
We are increasing the size of our sculpting team beyond what we had planned, and are also pushing out some walls to accommodate the new staff. We are also reorganizing the logistics of packing and shipping to increase efficiency and better manage the increased volume.
Being in the middle of this reorganization means we can't provide you with a detailed roadmap of the production for the next 3-4 weeks. However, please know that we are also currently working on finishing all the troops' sculpts, and this is moving along quite briskly. We are also adding new top-level sculptors whose mission will be to handle the most complex heroines. We are pretty happy with how everything is lining up so far.
Paypal Option still available for a short time
As promised, we are keeping our Paypal option open for a few more days to help you finalize your transactions, whether you wanted to spend more that what you could afford by the time the Kickstarter ended, or in case you had a problem paying for your pledge with Amazon, or if you decided to get just a little bit more than you originally intended, or if you forgot to add Shipping, or in response to any other situation that prevented you to take part in the Kickstarter.
Pledge Manager
The final Pledge Manager is not quite ready yet, as we want it to be as efficient as possible for you to make your choices, and for us to be able to suitably manage the orders. As you know, there are many items available in this Kickstarter, and furthermore, the wave shipping system adds a layer of complexity to the project. As there are almost 3000 backers selecting their choices between 100 different items shipped in several waves and you can understand that the management of your order means that we have to set up something pretty much comparable to a full-blown online shop.
Meanwhile, you can use Kenneth Gray's Pledge Calculator to figure out how you are thinking of spending your pledge
What's next...
As we told you on the KS video, the possibility of a great result on our Kickstarter would open up new opportunities for yo you and us. And so it has! Many improvements have now become possible. And we already have some wicked plans for not just one, but two games!
One will be a mass combat rule system, and the other one will be a board game with a unique, very cool and fun setting.
The board game had been in the back of our mind for over two years. We've already laid out many of its concepts, but we did not have the resources to develop it fully before. This has now become possible and we can't wait to tell you more about it.
The new resources generated by the TGG Kickstarter will also allow us to make these games and their background available to you in a very new, innovative form that will truly enrich the gaming experience.
Many of you have been asking us about our next Kickstarter for the Sci-Fi mass combat game, for the Dark Elves army (image 1, image 2) (and also for a Sci-Fi version of them), and for the Sisters of Eternal Mercy army.
Before we make any firm plans about another project, Kickstarter or otherwise, the first thing we want to do is make sure that we release the first wave of the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy as soon as possible.
Then, if everything goes smoothly, we will decide on what happens next.
What is absolutely certain is that we won't launch any project that could impede the production of the TGG minis that you are waiting for. It is crucial for us that we honor the trust you've placed in us and we will be very careful that nothing gets in the way of that.
At the same time, today, our concept artist is sitting idle and chomping at the bit! His work on the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy is done and he's ready to work on our next crazy ideas. So we need to feed the beast! And the same is true for the game designers we've worked with to lay the foundations of our games in the past few months.
Therefore, we are very much interested in what you guys want most. Of course, the game, the DE army and the Sisters army are all at different stages of development. But understanding more about your interest could help us decide where we should place our focus. Also, even if a project like the Dark Elves is already nearly ready for a Kickstarter, for example, we must also take into account what the competition is doing and what is the best timing for each project to be released. So, your comments and intentions will be appreciated on this.
In the meantime, we hope that you are having a good summer (or winter if you're on the other side of the planet) and are able to enjoy a few days of vacations. We'll be back with a new update next week!
I really hope they complete the TGG KS fulfilment before starting a new one. Mantic and Red Box have both shown us what a mess starting subsequent ones before the first is finished can become.
Azazelx wrote: I really hope they complete the TGG KS fulfilment before starting a new one. Mantic and Red Box have both shown us what a mess starting subsequent ones before the first is finished can become.
Yet for Stonehaven I almost want them to do 5 at once!!
Raging Heroes wrote:As we told you on the KS video, the possibility of a great result on our Kickstarter would open up new opportunities for yo you and us. And so it has! Many improvements have now become possible. And we already have some wicked plans for not just one, but two games!
One will be a mass combat rule system, and the other one will be a board game with a unique, very cool and fun setting.
The board game had been in the back of our mind for over two years. We've already laid out many of its concepts, but we did not have the resources to develop it fully before. This has now become possible and we can't wait to tell you more about it.
The new resources generated by the TGG Kickstarter will also allow us to make these games and their background available to you in a very new, innovative form that will truly enrich the gaming experience.
Although it is plausible/predictable at times that a company will use funds from a campaign to fund new ideas not related to it... probably would be best not to come right out and say that when still just starting out on fulfilling the original campaign.
This one's not due to deliver for quite some time.
I don't think seeing the Dark Elf (and didn't GW actually win that argument vs. CHS?) Kickstarter campaign from them before delivering on this one is all that much of a stretch.
I'm definitely interested in this proposed board game too though - especially given their awesome art direction!
Looking at the post-kickstarter comments, I'm pretty happy I backed out at the last minute. So far, they've said they are using the money for building an extension on their premises, and developing non-kickstarter products. If I understand kickstarter correctly, the money should be getting used for developing the products advertised in the kickstarter no?
If they are currently a 3 person team, and they are hiring a couple of new sculptors, I can't really see why they need an extension. 5 people could work in my living-room quite comfortably. I'm sure they have more space than my living room already.
Well, the extension obviously could be very necessary given the increase in workload. I thought the non-KS products comment was a bit unwise (even though I'm sure Many companies do this... they just don't say so ).
Anyway, hopefully their reorganization helps with the fulfillment of this... could be a very good thing in the long run, if they do it well!
Eggs wrote: Looking at the post-kickstarter comments, I'm pretty happy I backed out at the last minute. So far, they've said they are using the money for building an extension on their premises, and developing non-kickstarter products. If I understand kickstarter correctly, the money should be getting used for developing the products advertised in the kickstarter no?
If they are currently a 3 person team, and they are hiring a couple of new sculptors, I can't really see why they need an extension. 5 people could work in my living-room quite comfortably. I'm sure they have more space than my living room already.
More sculptors, more storage space for product, possibly adding staff to aid with graphic design and game design, order processing, packing/shipping, there's always use for more space beyond just what you need for one small part of the team.
Eggs wrote: Looking at the post-kickstarter comments, I'm pretty happy I backed out at the last minute. So far, they've said they are using the money for building an extension on their premises, and developing non-kickstarter products. If I understand kickstarter correctly, the money should be getting used for developing the products advertised in the kickstarter no?
If they are currently a 3 person team, and they are hiring a couple of new sculptors, I can't really see why they need an extension. 5 people could work in my living-room quite comfortably. I'm sure they have more space than my living room already.
They should develop the products advertised in the ks? I think so.
They are supposed to make no money out of that? I disagree.
They should not use the money thay made (thanks to the ks) to product other projects, but just to buy coke and pizzas? I disagree.
I'm not saying they shouldn't make money, but profits are only profits once the goods have been delivered no?
Say they run into problems, and they've already spent their profits on an extension and other projects. Then say they don't have the capital left to overcome said problems.
Will you still be happy if they don't deliver everything you've paid for because the capital has been spent on other things?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just curious to see if anyone has a business address for rh. I can't seem to find one. I was going to nosy on street view to see if they are expanding a business premises, or working out of a house, and essentially extending their domicile with ks money.
RH started with a single miniature. They then went to make a set of three, then more single ones and small sets. They then dared to make unit boxes for a larger market. The purpose of the kickstarter was to expand the business to sell the equivalent of three armies. So creating the infrastructure to cope with this enlarged number of products including packing and delivery is of course part of the kickstarter. Actually expanding a business to a new level is intended with kickstarter projects. So hiring new people and tearing down a wall is not surprising or something to frown upon.
The boardgame is not meant as part of the kickstarter, as I understand it. Maybe a second use for a selected few of the miniatures. It is meant as an outlook, what e.g. the concept sketch man is doing, now his work for the kickstarter is mostly done. Some work for the next kickstarter has to start parallel though, as not all production steps work at the same time, e.g. concepts and kickstarter bureaucracy.
Azazelx wrote: I really hope they complete the TGG KS fulfilment before starting a new one. Mantic and Red Box have both shown us what a mess starting subsequent ones before the first is finished can become.
I have no proof for this, but I believe that Mantic in its first kickstarter sold the production of 6-9 months for not much more than production cost. They were forced to line kickstarter after kickstarter to not go bancrupt, with later projects a bit more reasonable priced. At RH the situation is different, as they were fully aware of these problems and eager to avoid them.
It's not like they are doing the casting themselves, so I'm not sure exactly what infrastructure they need. Maybe another couple of computers, and a couple of sheds to keep stock in? An extra pair of hands or two to pack boxes?
There are less than 3000 orders to fulfil. It hardly warrants a new wing.
I think their latest update is quite logical, an update framing the near future, stating troops are worked and giving a tease for the future, I see nothing bad with it.
Eggs wrote:It's not like they are doing the casting themselves, so I'm not sure exactly what infrastructure they need. Maybe another couple of computers, and a couple of sheds to keep stock in? An extra pair of hands or two to pack boxes?
There are less than 3000 orders to fulfil. It hardly warrants a new wing.
This is also uncool and most likely unnecessary speculation.
PsychoticStorm wrote:I think their latest update is quite logical, an update framing the near future, stating troops are worked and giving a tease for the future, I see nothing bad with it.
Agreed!
It is what it is!
As long as they deliver what they promised to deliver - great!
Alpharius wrote: If you have no proof of that, it isn't that cool to go around spreading that...
Kroot is pretty open about how he doesn't like Mantic. So.. grain of salt.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Eggs wrote: It's not like they are doing the casting themselves, so I'm not sure exactly what infrastructure they need. Maybe another couple of computers, and a couple of sheds to keep stock in? An extra pair of hands or two to pack boxes?
There are less than 3000 orders to fulfil. It hardly warrants a new wing.
With the expansion of a business, often new infrastructure and space is needed. It's also a good thing if this can be done. Reaper added a new wing and bought a moulding machine. Trollforged moved out of a basement or back room and into a proper business space. Red Box is working towards setting up in-house casting. I see no problem if RH give themselves some more space, particularly since we don't know how cramped their entire setup was. It's not like they're buying sports cars, hookers and blow.
The KS isn't (and shouldn't be) just about fulfilling our pre-orders, but setting them up with more product to sell beyond fulfilment and the means to efficiently do so.
Eggs wrote: It's not like they are doing the casting themselves, so I'm not sure exactly what infrastructure they need. Maybe another couple of computers, and a couple of sheds to keep stock in? An extra pair of hands or two to pack boxes?
There are less than 3000 orders to fulfil. It hardly warrants a new wing.
With the expansion of a business, often new infrastructure and space is needed. It's also a good thing if this can be done. Reaper added a new wing and bought a moulding machine. Trollforged moved out of a basement or back room and into a proper business space. Red Box is working towards setting up in-house casting. I see no problem if RH give themselves some more space, particularly since we don't know how cramped their entire setup was. It's not like they're buying sports cars, hookers and blow.
The KS isn't (and shouldn't be) just about fulfilling our pre-orders, but setting them up with more product to sell beyond fulfilment and the means to efficiently do so.
Very well said, this KS is about Kickstarting the business and these models are not pre-orders, they are part of a broader business plan. I really hope they get this phase right, because the more successful miniature companies that launch to a fully fledged gaming system the better
Alpharius wrote: If you have no proof of that, it isn't that cool to go around spreading that...
It's certainly true that the KOWKS did no more than break even (of course it did pay for a bunch of moulds/sculpts/concept art),
as Mantic have said that the reason the command sprues for certain units are metal is that there was not enough cash in the KS pot to pay to do them in restic, so they had to be paid for out of general Mantic funds.
There you go - even if it "only" "broke even", Mantic have ended up with a pile of new product that will be able to last them for years. While it's a shame that much of it is average and a lot is seriously sub-par, that's more a matter of their own quality control issues. The over-the-top levels of add-ons for the KoWKS are also because of the way they got taken completely by surprise and kept adding more and more as they really didn't expect it to blow up in the way it did. Of course, this happened with RH as well, but they had the benefit of having seen multiple KS campaigns over the last year, and while I don't think that RH handled it as well as they could have, clearly they didn't want to end up like Mantic's campaign.
Eggs wrote: It's not like they are doing the casting themselves, so I'm not sure exactly what infrastructure they need. Maybe another couple of computers, and a couple of sheds to keep stock in? An extra pair of hands or two to pack boxes?
There are less than 3000 orders to fulfil. It hardly warrants a new wing.
1.) They didn't talk about building a new wing or buying a Lamborghini, just tearing down a wall in the house.
2.) Not sure if development of new miniatures needs more room, but packing and storing 700k $ of orders and basically tripling the nuber of products offered certainly needs some space.
Concerning Mantic: Thanks Orlando for backing my assumption with facts. I can't only post things I can prove, being rumour poster and all, but one post clearly labelled as personal believe in a huge "Misc.Miniatures" thread is not really "spreading" bad rep. I didn't post that in the Mantic thread for a reason. Now let's get back posting unproven bad things about RH now
1.) They didn't talk about building a new wing or buying a Lamborghini, just tearing down a wall in the house.
Are they really tearing down walls ? I mean, they said they were "pushing some walls" - I'm not sure that's to be taken literraly. That could just mean they're reorganizing their workspace to accomodate new people, or something.
We French sometimes speak in a funny way, you know.
Just in case I've been misunderstood, I genuinely hope everything goes well with the kick starter; I almost pulled the trigger on a few hundred dollars' worth myself, and I'll be buying a fair few once they hit retail. I just question the sense of spending profits on things other than the ks lines before they are officially profits. And telling such stuff to the backers.
I'm a fan of raging heroes work, and the more competition and variety out there the better.
$10 heroines, pretty much. I dropped my pledge in the end from the almost-$400 to almost-$200. Sure, I could get more figures by going for troops, but unknown material without renders doesn't quite stack up to getting hero models in metal, which is what brought them (and me) to the dance in the first place.
Iron Empire
Lady Sighrith (embalmer)
Dr. Von X
Major Severina Madsen
Lt. Drakkan
Arthemesia Rozenkrantz (strategist)
Gen. Ilsa Wolfenstein
Planning some green stuff work to add some armout/de-cheesecake-ify some of them, especially the Jailbirds. But overall the concepts were pretty excellent and the heroine renders were fantastic. I cannot wait to see renders of Ludmilla Magdanova (I'm thinking Inquisitor) and Irina Vega (adept/seneschal?) in particular.
I would have invested in the troops and the other sets aswell, but to be honest most of the bike and mech concepts were pretty "meh" and after the rather dissapointing renders of the Kurganova troops I decided it was best to wait until retail before considering them.
At the moment, obviously subject to change, I'm looking at;
4 soul weavers plus the matriarch. Then...
Iron Empire
Enbalmer
Madsen
Drakken
Mortaria
Strategist
Standard Bearer
Von Stroheim
maybe, necro priestess
4 or 5 boxes of troops/command groups
3 boxes of snipers.
My plan at the moment is to hopefully mix them with Eisenkern troops from dreamforge. I'll need to wait and see if they are gonna fit in with each other. Hopefully they will with a little bit of work. If they dont, I'll have to look at Kurganova's, because I want my army to be mixed gender.
Iron Empire definitely first choice though. And only heroines and troops (except the snipers). Don't like the bikes (or bikes in games generally) and I don't think I'll go for a mecha. The IE mecha is my favourite one at the moment from the art, but it'd need to change a bit yet to get me to buy one.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Svetlana might be my favourite bit of art of all though. That one model has the potential to swing me towards kurganovas.
Just so I can be on record saying something nice about Raging Heroes, my opinion on the troops thus far being rather abismal and the vehicle designs failing completely to fill me with glee (excet maybe the Kurganova mech), I absolutely love most of the freebies. I would have likely pedged more money to get them if they weren't already included. Svetlana is fantastic and the tank commanders are awesome, the spotter figure is very cool and both the nurse and Natasha are figures I would have been willing to pay 10$ for. This is assuming they end up looking like the concept, but with the heroines at least, that's pretty much a given, right?
KS Total: $150 + $23 S&H
RRP: 217.05
Total models for pledge:
9x single minis
1x large mini
2x monstrous creatures
Extras:
Drusilla Le Pic $15 (RRP $18)
Freebies Pack $149 (RRP $222)
For: 10x Heroine class models
and 4x "Mascots" (I'm counting the single Lulu as a mascot)
Eventually I'll pick up some troops boxes, but for now, this will give me a lot of awesome minis to paint.
Username Invalid wrote: Just so I can be on record saying something nice about Raging Heroes, my opinion on the troops thus far being rather abismal and the vehicle designs failing completely to fill me with glee (excet maybe the Kurganova mech), I absolutely love most of the freebies. I would have likely pedged more money to get them if they weren't already included. Svetlana is fantastic and the tank commanders are awesome, the spotter figure is very cool and both the nurse and Natasha are figures I would have been willing to pay 10$ for. This is assuming they end up looking like the concept, but with the heroines at least, that's pretty much a given, right?
I couldn't agree more.
I was totally pumped for the bikes... and will not be getting a single one.
The Kurnagova Mech is great (I might get 2) but all of the other vehicles are just not as good as the heroines.
About how long does it usually take until they send out a request form for models you'd like? I thought that was part of the process for getting a feel as to production requirements and popularity of lines.
some send out a survey as soon as KS provides the cash and email addressed (about 3 weeks after the KS ends), and you have to choose based on concept art
others wait until everything is sculpted or 3D rendered which can take months (preferable in my opinion as you get to see what you're choosing, but it's more likely to lead to delays)
Well, they talked about holding off on the pledge manager / survey until they were in a position to show off more sculpts. The idea being that people can see what they're actually getting before spending their pledge.
Taking into account the fact that they were 80% done with the sculpting process and I'd expect us to see a wave 1 survey within the next two to three weeks. Though that depends on RH's communication as other than knowing they're hiring people and knocking walls through we've not no information on what they're upto at the moment.
prankster wrote: Taking into account the fact that they were 80% done with the sculpting process and I'd expect us to see a wave 1 survey within the next two to three weeks.
I'd be Very surprised if this turns out to be the case
Soo... a number of things still seem rather up in the air here.
Since they (generously) aren't going to take orders until finished models are presented, and since there is going to be wave shipping, and the number of waves and their contents are as yet unknown, it seems impossible to actually know how much one will end up paying here.
Or have I missed details of the wave shipping program and schedule?
Buzzsaw wrote: Soo... a number of things still seem rather up in the air here.
Since they (generously) aren't going to take orders until finished models are presented, and since there is going to be wave shipping, and the number of waves and their contents are as yet unknown, it seems impossible to actually know how much one will end up paying here.
Or have I missed details of the wave shipping program and schedule?
Well, one of the updates earlier on did give us some details of what could be in wave 1, way back in update 21:
RH wrote:The first wave is planned to include up to 15 Heroines, as well as all the Regular Troopers (that is, the Troops Boxes and the Command Group Boxes) for all 3 armies. The Kurganova Heavy Troopers should also be part of this wave.
This, however, is not a completely FIRM schedule, since this first wave will also be when we finesse our production tactics and workflow. So there might be some more stuff, or there might be a little less.
So, all of the stuff that was available at launch and some unlocks. I'd expect One Shot to be in there as well, given how far along she is.
To complicate matters even further, there's drop ship shipping as well. Both to store and direct (if there's 2+ pledges going to the same address). This latter is what I'll be taking advantage of, so shipping is already taken care of, unless they add a 4th wave for some reason.
The only real information about it is in update #63:
We're adding an 'Individual Pledgers' option to Drop Shipping
Many of you have asked us if they could join up with friends to save on shipping, and have all their pledges shipped to the same address, because there is no Drop Ship retailers nearby.
While this is not possible, we can now offer a great alternative:
If you band up with one or more friends, we will be able to send your pledge rewards in at least 2 waves, possibly more.
So, you and your friends all have to pay for shipping. So, no savings there. BUT, you will be able to receive your part of your rewards EARLIER, thanks to wave shipping.
So, it's basically, the 2+ of you each pay shipping ($20 for UK) then things are shipped to one address in an appropriate number of waves. I'd imagine that it's a wave per pledge, so 2 people doing this would be 2 waves, and so on.
RH wrote: Crazy from the Heat Update #74 · Jul 29, 2013 · 8 comments
Hail to you, dear TGG supporter! If you're like us, you're sweltering in the summer heat. And yet, despite sticky computer mice and grubby keyboards, your Raging Heroes Team is not slacking off!
News from the Front
Right now, all of our production efforts are focused on finishing the First Wave, due out in the Fall.
As you may be aware, we work with contributors from around the world to create our sculpts. To optimize production, we got two of our key team members, Francesca and Andrea to travel to Montpellier (France) for a bout of intensive teamwork, and we are also welcoming Yan, a new sculptor, to the on-site team. Together with Benoit and Jean-Romain, they are hard at work finishing most of the Troops and Command Group boxes. This means a batch of up to 50 sculpts! And, as planned, there will also be up to 10 Heroines thrown into the mix. This already represents more than the total number of sculpts we released in the past 24 months, and is a testament to the continuing improvements we've made to our production workflow.
For those who may have missed it, if you recall, in our opening video, we talked about creating about 20 Heroines for the TGG Kickstarter. But that was before the Kickstarter launch actually happened! And guess what? At the end of the Kickstarter, we created over 50 Heroines and, in total, the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy project pretty much doubled in size! Not to worry, though, from the very first days of the Kickstarter, we made sure that we could handle the additional creation and production. In fact, this was one of the reasons why we were a bit slow on the uptake in the first 3-4 days of the KS, as we carefully re-planned everything to make sure that we did not over-promise and could deliver as we increased our commitments.
We also have quite a bit of administrative work to do. Managing the Kickstarter funds in the proper manner requires good thinking and planning, as well as a bit of help from professional accountants. It's fairly transparent to you, but of course, it's crucial to the continuing health of the company and the proper completion of the TGG project. A large part of our time is also devoted to recruiting new sculptors. As simple as it may seem, this takes A LOT of time: not many people have the specific set of skills we require, as sculpting good female characters is actually more of a challenge than sculpting male characters or monsters...
And finally, we know that, as Tommy Blaze put it in the Comments thread, you would have loved to see some eye candy in this Update but alas, as much as we've been working on many sculptures al at once, none is ready for its close-up yet. But we'll make up for it in the next Update.
Fun with Foundries (no, this is not a new Sheldon Cooper webcast...)
There's a lot of excitement around all things related to the casting of the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy.
In the past months as you may know, we did a lot of R&D regarding casting and production. As the casting of the first wave is drawing nearer, a lot of that is now coming to fruition. And in the past few weeks, new ideas and concepts are being developed so that the casts are of the best possible quality while, at the same time, we continually seek ways to ramp up productivity.
Among other things, we now have a new system to lock the moulds, as we continue on our quest to make mould lines disappear.
We are also testing and refining a new method to cast twice as many miniatures per spin.
And we're devising new solutions to facilitate the picking and sorting of all the minis and their parts: this is a crucial part of the job, because we must continually seek to streamline this process while minimizing mispacks.
Our foundry is also importing from Italy what they called the “Rolls Royce of casting rubber” for the TGG moulds, and BASF, the chemical giant company, is custom mixing a special kind of resin just for us!
So, all in all, all these improvements are building up to have a big impact on the final product! We're totally psyched about all this, not only because it means very good news for the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy, but also because it will have very positive repercussions on all our future projects...
Thank You for your Feedback!
You may have noticed that as soon as the TGG Kickstarter ended, many of you began to ask when our next project would be, and when it would happen. So we asked for your feedback in our previous Update.
And reading it has been most interesting. But one thing must be said: usually, when we ask for your feedback, a clear consensus always emerges, but this time, and this is a first, there is much interest for everything, but with no particular order of preference.
So tell us more! Please keep on sharing your thoughts with us: we're listening!
Meanwhile, here's where we're at now, but do keep in mind that as this is an ongoing conversation, everything is still very fluid as this point in time.
First of all, and we really want to reassure you on this, the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy are our ABSOLUTE priority. All of our resources are currently devoted to this.
But, as creative people, to make sure that our current projects work well, we do need to refresh and replenish our minds with other thoughts and ideas from time to time. It's, in a small way, a bit akin to how you work on your computer or your miniature painting, and your eye doctor tells you that you need to look away towards infinity for 5 minutes every hour or so to rest your eyes: we need to look away from the daily grind and take the long view every now and then, to say fresh and excited about what we do!
Dark Elves vs Sisters of Eternal Mercy it is very interesting to see that before the TGG KS, the big demand was clearly on our launching the Dark Elves Invasion. But after the TGG Kickstarter, the focus appears to have somewhat shifted to the Sisters of Eternal Mercy. Not to mention that there are those of you who want to see the Dark Elves in a Sci-Fi setting, and the Sisters in a Fantasy version...
These are all interesting and valid options, and we're not ready to call them yet. However, just so you know, any new Sci-Fi faction that we make will of course be part of the TGG universe.
In any case, you will recall that we already have all the concept art for the Dark Elf Troops as well as other DE special projects, and therefore, since Alex, our concept artist, is done with the TGG, he's in an Exploration Phase to develop new ideas and concepts for the Sisters, based on Benoit's vision.
Game(s) The main question about the game(s) has been about the format it should have. Many of you have said that they would prefer a board game that would be easily playable with their friends in a short period of time. Others are looking for a skirmish game. And of course, there are those who are looking for an alternative mass combat game. And of course, there is a question of whether it should be Fantasy or Sci-Fi...
We are not ready to give you have a definite answer to all of this. However, our plans include having a generic game engine that would be the base for our games, at least the skirmish and mass combat ones. So at this point in time, while we cannot say exactly how it will be like, the plan is to make the game very scalable, so that you can have as much fun with a few minis or with large armies on the tabletop. We do believe we have some pretty unusual/innovative approaches to this, so this should be fun...
As for the board game, we can tell you that it will be something really special, different and loads of fun! It will take place either in the TGG world or or in the Fantasy world we're working on. It will not be about war, and yet fights will be part of it...
Practical Details
Pledge manager As you are well aware, you have not yet received the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy Pledge Manager. This is completely normal.
First of course, as mentioned in our previous update, the Pledge Manager is going to be a bit complex, and we want to make sure we have an effective tool. But just as importantly, we want you to be able to see the sculpts of the first wave before finalizing your selection.
And in case you're wondering, when the Pledge Manager comes out, you will indeed be able to top up your pledge via Paypal, if you want to.
Meanwhile, if you wish, you can check out not one but two unofficial yet quite useful Pledge Calculators, each offering different functionalities, for which we've very thankful:
Paypal Newsletter If you've pledged for the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy during our Kickstarter, you are already receiving all of our Updates directly in your mailbox as soon as we post them.
However, until now, those of you who have pledged only on our Paypal page have been somewhat left out of the loop: they do not receive the Kickstarter updates, and cannot comment on Kickstarter either.
So we've created a newsletter for those who want to receive our Updates directly into their email box, if they are not already getting them: if you or your friends want to keep track of what's happening with the Toughest Girls of the Galaxy, you can subscribe here. We are also reposting the Kickstarter Updates directly onto our blog, so that you can share your thoughts with us if you wish.
Well, that's it for now. Don't hesitate to share your thoughts with us. And I'd like to leave you with the latest from the sculpting team, who's putting the finishing touches on the Jailbirds' mascot: "I think we've managed to create the most accessorized hippo ever..."
Indeed, we need more pictures in general. Though I don't see why they're working on freebies rather than the first wave stuff, unless they're wanting to get X freebies done per wave.
prankster wrote: Indeed, we need more pictures in general. Though I don't see why they're working on freebies rather than the first wave stuff, unless they're wanting to get X freebies done per wave.
The majority of the backers get the freebies, 1998 out of 2748 backers qualify for them (and that's not counting anybody who upgraded their pledge via paypal), so it makes sense to get them done early
if fact I would not be at all surprised if they are among the most produced figures from the KS (I'll bet quite a few are 'added' by folk for sale later on ebay too)
They could show pictures now, though. No impact on the total pledge amount anymore. What they have right now is safe, they could only gather more by showing and accepting constructive feedback.
Proverbial haters would continue doing what they do, of course, but there would be little impact now.
What I found interesting was the talk of hiring new sculptors. I found it interesting in light of the "100% of the figures are 80% complete" claims earlier.
Maybe just for the werewolves? Was there anything else added towards the end that wasn't in the original plan?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or was that 80% claim made right at the start they only thought they were releasing 20 heroines? I can't recall the exact sequence of events.
The claim was actually made quite late- parroted by RH after Hulksmash said it in jest, no lest! (That, in fact, by 80% they had meant 100% of sculpts 80% complete... clearly not the case, but then who really thought it was?)
Well, they said quite early that the sculpts were 80% done, but didn't clarify that until very close to the end when they also said that they weren't going to make the mistake of showing off WIP sculpts again.
Thing is, those of us who backed it are locked in now, so there's no danger to the KS funds in showing them off with the standard disclaimer that they're still WIP figures rather than completed items.
RiTides wrote: The claim was actually made quite late- parroted by RH after Hulksmash said it in jest, no lest! (That, in fact, by 80% they had meant 100% of sculpts 80% complete... clearly not the case, but then who really thought it was?)
Yeah, that was kinda my point. The 80% done was so open to interpretation that someone said something silly, and they jumped on it. If they had said 80% of the sculpts will be 100% complete, then we could have held their feet to the fire. As it is, they had a logical out. Highly improbable, but still logical.
Trying hard no to be impatient, but the lack of progress updates is getting a little irritating to be honest. Four weeks after funding and we still don't even know what their final decision regarding the scale of the models is, let alone seen any renders. I know France has their holidays in August, but even so.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Mhmmm. Patience is the chief most virtue with all Kickstarters as we well know.
At some point you stop being patient and just become a mug.
They've ostensibly been back for a month now, according to Update 73, update 74 was two and a half weeks ago. Neither had much info or any pics, and they seemed more interested in talking about their next Kickstarter.
Prodos can manage to put out regular updates with pics of renders, so it's not like it's impossible.
I have to admit I check this thread because this project feels a bit like a trainwreck to me. I just can't stop watching.
But to be fair it's "only" been 6ish weeks since it ended. Nobody gets much done the first six weeks after a kickstarter or keeps in touch with people to let them know what's going on
There were too may complaints about the unfinished render they did post
it upset them (I suspect)
so now we have to wait till everything is totally finished, and they've had a chance to look at them with fresh eyes after a month or two of letting them sit
I am a little surprised about the lack of updates and news, but it's the first kickstarter I've actually followed through with so I'm hardly experienced with how they're usually run at this point. It just seems odd not to give at least a small update on how things are going it doesn't take that long to write a paragraph or two letting us know how things are progressing even if there weren't any pictures.
I agree that patience is a virtue with Kickstarter, but they were talking about, and harped on it quite a bit, a first wave in September. Which is next month... 12 days away to be precise.
Regarding render shots, WIPs and all, what would damage their product more, really? 1- Not shown models that are not what people expected and generate negative publicity and deflate the whole brand or 2- WIPs that attract criticism, but they can respond to the community and fine tune it to a more general consensus (that doesn't betray the artists' views either)?
Well they finally posted a comment. Apparently, they were totally going to do an update earlier, but they wanted to put in "loads" of images so it was pushed back to late next week(this week, now)
They've also postponed the seminar thingy until September, because holidays, apparently.
I feel it could be sooner than that. Though it depends on the content of the next update and when it's actually posted. Whilst we are expecting it end of this week (so today and possibly the weekend) it could be argued that we won't see it before the end of the month. All depends on whether RH consider the weekend to be at the start of the week or the end of the week.
prankster wrote: I feel it could be sooner than that. Though it depends on the content of the next update and when it's actually posted. Whilst we are expecting it end of this week (so today and possibly the weekend) it could be argued that we won't see it before the end of the month. All depends on whether RH consider the weekend to be at the start of the week or the end of the week.
Here in France, we always see it as the end of the week, never the start. ^^
But, sometimes, by "fin de semaine" (end of week), we mean the end of the "work week", as in Monday to Friday.
Mathieu Raymond wrote: At which point exactly do we get the free "I told you so" pass and people don't simply say we're being to negative?
You told us what exactly?
The estimated deilvery date is April 2014 as someone has already pointed out. I don't REALLY care what happens in between, as long as they do net go over april more than a few months.
They did claim to have a wave one several times throughout the campaign slated for September/October if I remember right. But then again I could be remembering wrong. All I know for sure is they had a first wave date set for this year.
Yeah, first wave was planned for as early as this September. It's still on the front page of the KS.
Though it looks like they could be polishing the latest update, given they just posted on the KS comments, which usually means they're fiddling with something in the background.
Hulksmash wrote: They did claim to have a wave one several times throughout the campaign slated for September/October if I remember right. But then again I could be remembering wrong. All I know for sure is they had a first wave date set for this year.
That's correct good sir. I am also willing to concede delays, it would be quite unexpected if there were none. But if the first wave isn't ready by April 2014 (the 2nd, just to be on the safe side) then I think I wouldn't be the only one to slightly lose faith.
Hulksmash wrote: They did claim to have a wave one several times throughout the campaign slated for September/October if I remember right. But then again I could be remembering wrong. All I know for sure is they had a first wave date set for this year.
BrookM wrote: I'm sure things will take a turn for good once they start delivering.
I'm sure they will, but that's looking like it might be a ways away yet. They have 49 minutes left for their statement about an update "late next week" to be considered accurate - I get that they're leery of putting up unfinished stuff and getting a negative reaction, but crikey it takes five minutes to upload some screengrabs from the 3D sculpting software and write "here's where we're at, what do you guys think so far?".
Well, that was my original thinking, though apparently the French convention is that the weekend is at the end of the week rather than the start of the week. So a comment on Saturday (17th August) about 'next week' would have meant anywhere up until midnight on Sunday (25th August). Even allowing for their previous trend of posting late night French time we're passed the point where an update could be considered to have come within the suggested time frame.
There was the brief appearance in the KS comments on Friday afternoon, where they said that everyone was huddled around finalising some posing so the update was going to slip. But at that point there was still time for them to get an update out within the week. Even allowing for a couple of drafts and a 'peer review' by other staff it should only take a couple of hours to get something put together for release.
The only way that a bit of posing on Friday should have realistically been allowed to push the update back is if it's a wave one sculpt and they're planing to put out the pledge manager in this update along with finalised / 98%+ done sculpts so that people can start choosing their rewards.
BrookM wrote: I'm sure things will take a turn for good once they start delivering.
I'm sure they will, but that's looking like it might be a ways away yet. They have 49 minutes left for their statement about an update "late next week" to be considered accurate - I get that they're leery of putting up unfinished stuff and getting a negative reaction, but crikey it takes five minutes to upload some screengrabs from the 3D sculpting software and write "here's where we're at, what do you guys think so far?".
Late. Next Week.
They said "next week", now it's late. See how that works?
Besides, because people were all so mean, they said they'd never make the mistake of showing off pre-release or WIP designs ever again. Shameful, you lot are!
Indeed quite shameful, I guess they never realized exactly how many of us kept our pledges because they promised to fix the WIP from heroic to what the concept art was promising.
If they had relished the heroic as finished they would have a nice drop exactly like THON had.
Maybe they're waiting until tomorrow?Then it would be exactly 4 weeks since the last update!
We could get a new one to celebrate it! And it would be about where the error was in Rasputins prediction (see their last post in the Kickstarter Forum) and about how warm it is in southern France and most of all about the upcomming Kickstarter projects they're working on!
Yay, what a fab update that's going to be!
And my best bet will be: no pics of this Kickstarter! No telling which models will be in the first wave of this Kickstarter!
I was a proud supporter of Raging Heroes. Emphasis on was!
Ugh, you were in that one too, Ronin? You've had bad luck
Not that this will necessarily turn out like that, of course... but the issues with communication certainly are a bit reflective. I find it amazing that companies don't do the easy-to-generate-goodwill step of just posting a periodic update just to say what they're doing in fulfillment... it's easy!
And that's why I love Poots and gave him a lot of my money. The release is still some time out, but at least he takes the time to let us know what's going on and where we are with things.
Here, I'm glad I've got a tiny single mini pledge, so if things go tits up, it won't be as bad.
On the bright side, their Tumblr is seeing steady "updates" for sure.
BrookM wrote: And that's why I love Poots and gave him a lot of my money. The release is still some time out, but at least he takes the time to let us know what's going on and where we are with things.
Here, I'm glad I've got a tiny single mini pledge, so if things go tits up, it won't be as bad.
On the bright side, their Tumblr is seeing steady "updates" for sure.
They lie. The tumblr blurb says that amonth all the gak they post on there, there should be behind the scenes looks at raging heroes (or Raginshiroz) miniatures.
Jokes and snark aside, gents - this is pretty much what I expected from RH. I dropped a couple hundred off my pledge during the campaign as I saw how it was heading, but I still went in on $150 or so. (Can't remember exactly how much).
Still, this is what I expected after my experiences with RH's pre-order models and their behaviour during the campaign: communication only marginally better than the absolute worst (AoW) and lots of delays. I expect poor/sub par communication to be ongoing. I also expect quite a lot of delays and missed deadlines. I expect that eventually, in the end, (late 2014, early 2015?) I'll have a bunch of quite lovely character models.
Until then of course, I'll be continuing to contribute to the most shameful, most negative thread ever in the history of Dakka (or Western Civilisation, for that matter!). But rest assured, that it's all tongue in cheek. At this stage, anyway.
I agree that little communication, and delays, should be expected here. Really might as well let the thread lie dormant until they do update... Unfortunate, but easy to predict based on track record.
Luckily, also based on track record, the models should be excellent when they do release!
You know, I looked at the metric assload of crap I should be receiving from KSes in 4Q2013 and its a but embarrassing and makes me feel better about not pledging this.
Dreadball, Wild West Exodus, Relic Knights (maybe ), Kingdom Death, Arena Rex, Rivet Wars and the rest of Sedition Wars.
cincydooley wrote: You know, I looked at the metric assload of crap I should be receiving from KSes in 4Q2013 and its a but embarrassing and makes me feel better about not pledging this.
Dreadball, Wild West Exodus, Relic Knights (maybe ), Kingdom Death, Arena Rex, Rivet Wars and the rest of Sedition Wars.
My wife is going to effin murder me.
Quick, somebody find this man a Kickstarter for flowers and chocolate!
cincydooley wrote: You know, I looked at the metric assload of crap I should be receiving from KSes in 4Q2013 and its a but embarrassing and makes me feel better about not pledging this.
Dreadball, Wild West Exodus, Relic Knights (maybe ), Kingdom Death, Arena Rex, Rivet Wars and the rest of Sedition Wars.
My wife is going to effin murder me.
You wouldn't need to worry about Q4 2013 for this one. But if you want to divest yourself of some wife aggro, I'm sure there's plenty of people here who would happily "help you out"...
cincydooley wrote: You know, I looked at the metric assload of crap I should be receiving from KSes in 4Q2013 and its a but embarrassing and makes me feel better about not pledging this.
Dreadball, Wild West Exodus, Relic Knights (maybe ), Kingdom Death, Arena Rex, Rivet Wars and the rest of Sedition Wars.
My wife is going to effin murder me.
Yeah, I have a feeling that you won't have to worry about at least a few of those until 2014, anyway
Heh. I just posted an updated version of my post above in the KS comments. The key to this one is clearly to have very low expectations of everything but the final product.
That's why I'm not upset with the small amount of money I sent to AoW. I knew what I was getting in to, so I adjusted my pledge accordingly.
One campaign like AoW is enough for me I put in for just the standard bearer because it only cost me $15 and I can wait years for it (dwarves never lose their luster for me).
For me the difference was that the AoW guy wasn't spending all his time claiming he was amazing, promising delivery in 2-3 months from completion of the campaign, and that he was 80% done or later claiming everying was individually 80% done. I figured I'd just get to annoyed
Hope you find satisfaction elsewhere.
What did I ever do to you, Alph? 
and for myself in the other campaigns I have similarly committed 
