Major imbalance? Sure! It used to be the best way to improve your gang.
Playing an imbalanced game is something I could do any day of week, it is the best (as long as there's an underdog reward for it). Unfortunately, being the underdog doesn't help much to evolve your gang at the moment.
The group I play in haven't gotten those high rating gangs yet, so it's not a problem. If we do get to that point, we would have to include some of the tax system of old necromunda to solve it. However isn't this two different topics? One is about culling the high rating gangs, the other is playing games with high gang rating difference?
Well, they are two aspects of the same thing. Wanting campaigns to be able to go on for ages.
You can either have feedback loops built in to clump gangs together in gang rating to try and keep gangs reasonably competitive with each other or you can have systems to allow gangs that are very different in power to fight each other
So underdog bonus / upkeep for the former and scenarios and inducements for the latter.
At this stage though I think most people will not share my fascination with campaign mechanics and have lost interest - so i think I'll drop the subject.
FW's recent open day was pretty pathetic, but someone did get some info out about upcoming Newcromunda releases:
Gang War 4 details
Writing this from memory, so things might not be in a logical order.
General content
cawdor rules
6 new scenarios
rules for Bionics
domination campaign system
revised skirmish rules
more hired guns and characters
Worth noting that gang war 4 is the same page count at book 3 for those wondering how big it is.
Domination Campaign system This is the main part of book 4. Basically the campaign is divided into three stages
Stage One
You collectively start with X amount of netural special territories. All territores are special in Domination. Players take turns ‘claiming’ territories. literally by saying ‘that ones mine’. another player can challenge for that particular territory at that moment. these two players then play a game against each other, winner claiming the territory. This continues for a fixed amount of ‘rounds’ or until all the territories are claimed.
Stage Two
This is downtime, same as at the end of a turf war. juves become champions, captives returned etc. all gangs are given an amount of credits by their houses, which MUST be spent.
Stage Three
This is the main part. the board is now fully claimed and the gangs well stocked and rested. each gang takes turns attacking another gang’s particular territory that it wants. the defending player can than defend by playing a game, or surrender the territory without a game if they’ve got lots of gangers on recovery or don’t want to risk injury for a low value territory. Worth noting that gangs start the campaign with a ‘home territory’ which functions as their base, this one can’t be claimed nor lost.
All territories have special rules that boost the gangs, some like existing ones give credits or access to better trading post items. certain territories are better for certain gangs due to their focus. these cards give improved or additional bonuses to a particular gang (each house gang has three different territories like this). for example ‘Toll crossing’ allows the controlling gang to earn D6x5 Credits each time they collect their income.
However if an Orlock gang controls it, the Orlock gang gets priority on turn one automatically. Other gangs can pay a fee for the crossing, which gives that gang the priority bonus for a single game.
When the campaign ends, there is not (normally) a single winner, the campaign has five awards for particular things (most territories, most rep, most credits still in the bank .etc)
also the rules for continuing gangs through to future campaigns has a new version making it less OP for the previous winner, and allowing players to keep more of their cool stuff.
Domination is expected to play out as the most common campaign system (over turf war) due to the speed and amount you gain credits allowing gangs to access the big toys and cool interesting stuff quickly. Its also been designed to be partially modular from the designers standpoint, allowing them to add to it or replace things later (different territory packs for ash wastes and/or hive secondus for example.)
Skirmish Rules Update
rules for skirmish games have be revised and expanded giving players access to more of the cool stuff from campaigns, rather than essentially just playing with large starting gangs. This will be used for the default option for short campaigns, tournaments, and events in the future.
Cawdor rules
nothing shocking. but writing it for completeness. Cawdor rules set will include the items for their FW resin upgrade kits from the start, same as van saars did. should have their pet option (bomb rats) in there as well, as models for them were shown at the weekender back in February.
new scenarios 6 new scenarios in the book, only got told about one
‘killer cyborg’ features two gangs fighting it out to the death, when a fighter goes down, you roll to see if its the killer cyborg. if it is, the mini is replaced, and the cyborg then rolls for its ‘mission’ which ranges from just killing everyone, to killing just leaders, or just gangers etc. its then controlled by the arbitrator or based on a set of standard behaviors. the cyborg has its own wargear and is really tough (can’t go out of action, from seriously injured .etc)
Note on the ‘Gang Leaders Accessories Pack’
This is the accessory pack with extra tokens including some new “asked for” tokens like standard wound markers, gas/smoke tokens, blinded tokens and more. It also includes a pad of blank gang rosters, a four page reference sheet that includes all the basic rules and ‘advanced’ rules all in logical order.
Also has most of the various tables you’ll need for standard play, and a list of all normal ‘actions’ in one place. It’s been written post faqs and erratas so is nice and up to date. you also get a set of 12 scenario cards with the 6 zone mortalis missions from the main rulebook, and the 6 sector mechancius missions from gang war 1 (considered the core 12).
The ZM missions have been updated to include campaign rewards, and certain issues have been changed (lower rating gangs gaining gak tons of Rep even when they lose just for fighting a higher rep gang is completely gone, you’ve got to earn your rep now)
The accessory packs sounds mandatory to me. Having easy access to scenarios and the rules laid out in a logical fashion is essentially.
The news about GW4 having as much content as GW3 is fantastic, as GW3 was a very good book.
GW4 sounds pretty cool. More scenarios are always welcome in my book. Domination campaign sounds good for a small campaign, though I kind of like the slow, more casual progression of the standard Turf War.
We don't have any better idea of a release date than "Q3 2018" at this point, do we? If they hold to a similar pattern as the van saars and orlocks, the Cawdor models would be out any week now.
The releases have been slow but they are good. I will admit the time to the next release is way too long. My LGS doesn't even carry it and they carry most things GW.
By making Cawdor more unique now they have set up redemptionists to be their own thing. Saving specialized flame weapons for redemptionists. They are hinted at being done in the future.
Cawdor gets the pictured sheen bird, looks like some kind of cybernetic raven.
grunt and snivels, candlekin are the Cawdor brute that was shown off at the open day.
cawdor get a sawed off resin upgade and 2 handed axe. heavy stubber, flamer, etc plus bomb delivery rats which are being sculpted in their free time. Cawdor was sculpted by Tom Hughes who seems newer and he sculpted the BB chaos chosen as well.
Thargrim wrote: They didn't discuss the release date, i'm hoping for pre orders on the 28th or aug 4th but who knows, the WD will tell us.
That would make sense with the video batrep preview thingy they're planning, and the release of kill team.
Wouldn't want ongoing support for that skirmish game they released to interfere with the release of that brand new skirmish game they're definitely going to be giving ongoing support.
Not quite medieval peasants - they are medieval peasants in a dystopian sci-fy setting
Do have large factories.
But house also collects trash – to find relic – religious nuts. Recycles, orders, etc.
Not to be confused with redemptionists – Cawdor acceptable face of Red Redemption – official religion of Necromunda, to some degree. To some degree everyone pays lip service to the religion on-world. Cawdor take it really serioeus. But some take it too serous and they get outcasted, becoming redemptionists, wearing long red robes and goin around with flamers. If you are functioning house making stuff, i.e. Cawdor, you don’t want them – so redepmtionists are the outcasts from Cawdor (and maybe other houses). When first created, differentiated – done the opposite from combining, with Redemptionists coming down the line.
Candles on head
Cawdor largest house – is this reflected in gang size – yes to an extent, partly expressed in weapons – some reclaimed autoguns, not quite as good as brand new polished autogun bought off orlock autotrader. Fair to say they get a few more numbers, rubbish weapons.
In the scenario, does candle affect in the dark?
Background
One of main things, storytime, one thing really proud. On p. 10, orlock polearm weapons with autogun and blunderbuss – tom’s idea – this very much demonstrates all the rules for gang before model, write as models made to bounce off – somewhere in reliquaries of house Cawdor is an old faded book or shattered fragment of stained glass with barely discerned image of a custodes – and some Cawdor housemember saw this thinking it the epitome of all holy, and this image repeated, and they tried to copy. This is the weapon of the distant vengeful god’s angels – in this religion where all damend – celebrate this by venerating their weapons. So the gang is venerating things which they’ve only bearly heard about or seen in repeated images.
Gang models are male – imitating the custodes. BUT in background, so girls will emulate sisters of battle – so there are female cawdor gangers. And again, the house is based on images and ideas of things they have never seen - so not direct translations - combined with rubbish/relics-recycling.
Major point of design process not to give them ork-esque weapons, to make them look like 'cawdor' weapons not 'ork' weapons.
How fit in with other hive - all gangs fighting proxy wars of clan houses - all this territory - manufactories with millions on mullions of industrial helots who if lucky get to sleep under their work stations, generations whose job is stamp out widgets, but further down hive get fringes of society - lawlessness, anarchy - great for clan houses who get to fight war. Clan houses reliant on one another, existing in profit , but still like to kill each other - purpose of gangs.
But for Cawdor, the person who is in charge - Thane of Cawdor (har har har - yes deliberate) - when pass on, they name successor who could be anyone, from second in command to a juve or a horrible joke, and put pet rat in charge. So any gang leader could be next Thane of Cawdor - so various leaders, fighting wars for the Thane, punishing the sinners (esp Goliath and really especially Delaque), could be named next Thane. (all the candles help - very Wolf Hall!) So Thane views himself as guardian of Necromunda, and say who is saved. So punish unbelievers, take offence. One person suggests 'Dog-dore' as a gang leader name....
Bionics - the cawdor have crude ones. Remind us they are in scifi setting. Their limbs - cast offs. All have masks - hardened leather, as don't want to expose face to others - not worthy of uncovering faces as E might see. Bindings around weapons - weapons are relics to them according to their faith. But weapons are reclaimed, so rubbish to us and others. But to the Cawdor (eg Sully) his autogun is holy. But Sully is damned and dirty. So the bindings protect the weapon from being touched by him.
Baldrick with crossbow - panzerfaust launched by crossbow - antitank. Tom came up with idea. 'what's medieval' - crossbow - but too medieval. So had to fire explosive bolt cause that's just funny. Two firing modes. 'Just fun, which is the main reason to do weaponry.' And then get a suspensor.....
Names - people noticed Cawdor is Macbeth and Scottish medieval name - what kind of naming conventions we give gangs. There is always one - an internal logic. So example names - Beluk, Caban, Hoyk, Hawbert, Cowl, Daggett, Cotus, Gambusson, Barbett, Snood, Antipope (sic) - there is a naming convention here. And pronunciation guide will be useful! It is item of clothing - but these are medieval items of clothing. [I need to spell them right - but check out Tudor Tailor for fun!] In other languages - when he worked in studio - in far east, O'Shaua[?] means commander Noodle Leg.
Gang themselves
They follow same format as others - 4 types
Skills - leader - brawn, leadership and ferocity (sec) and savant (sec). Champion - brawn, agility (Sec); juve - ferociety (pr), agility and combat (Sec); specialists - feoricty, agility (sec). Leaders too old for agility.
Close in fight gang - come across in pole-arm weapons - versatile weapons.
Blunderbuss and chainsword together!
Q weapons - like other gangs includes extra weapons - BASIC - reclaimed autogun (sp), pole-autogon, pole-blunderbuss, sawn off shotgun; CC axe, chainglaive, maul, fighting knife, two handed axe (replaces big icon, resin), two handed hammer; PISTOLS reclaimned autopistol, handflamer, stubgun; SPECIAL combi weapon - flamer auto, long rifle (variant of leader); HEAVY/ heavy crossbow, heavy flamer, heavy stubber; WARGEAR among grenades and armour - cult icon; bomb delivery rat (leader says 'kill', rat scatters away with fuse and tries to blow up - apparently unfinished?);
polearm blunderbuss - main - way to get interesting variation into weapon effects into one weapon - cawdor scavenge all sorts of stuff, speerating it into orderly piles over hours, blessing it, and giving lots of different shots - grapeshot (s2 d1 6+ ammo, temp) negation (temp, s3, blaze - didnt want to go all in on fire in - thats for redemptionists), emperor's wroth (8-12 range, s4, pulverise). Plus pole arm for close combat.
Pets - 'Marrowpicker' is the image, of a Sheenbird - conceptualised between Jonathan and Marade (sic) - appeared in inquisition novel, Ravenor - uphive all the palaces existing in gaudy lxury with cyber creatures - lovely birds but some escape and make way downhive and figure out how to replicate or carry on - captured by gangers and regarded as messenger from emperor. Cawdor espeically rate them, picking through rubbish, and we found it very amusing, on a 3d board, against van saar, they dont like being high up, they are less liekly to pass I test, and so sheen birds are great for knocking them off high ledges (followed by rats to blow them up!). [Diabolic St FRancis gang!!!]
The dwarf and big guy - not mutants - still two legs, two arms, etc - no tentacles. Cawdor House Brute - Grunt and Snivels, The Candlekin, House Cawdor. These are Stigmata creatures. Others will be in the book apparently.
What is on p. 5 - cawtlescrattor from hanged gang; archetypal cawdor ganger, on cover too.
What in general does reclaimed do - not a trait - just a name. Represents it being a bit cheaper and not so good. They get more guys by having access to this cheaper stuff. They can go to trading post in campaign. so long as not exclusive to other gangs, they can get it in campaign, and 'remake' it
Idea - every gang has house list, saying a lot about who they are. Other things from trading post. his escher gang bought last night a webber for leader, to put down goliaths, and also has two phyrr cats which activate at same time, then go and eat the laying goliath. His tactic.
Jessica, a part of his turfwar with an escher gang, writes in having joined twitch specificaly and she says she wont let that webber anywhere near her. And her rating is far higher.
PARAPHENALIA
Dice. Colour wise this is 'swirly copper colour with tasteful teal', 'shimmy iridescent effect'.
Cards.
Tactics for Cawdor
Let it burn. At start of round, for duration, all ranged friendly weapons gain blaze trait. Setting people on fire, running in all directions - much fun.
Tactics for others.
Dead men walking - ignore bottle test.
In general, can't go wrong with cards that give extra activations - in this deck it is Duck and Cover - all gangs - a fighter may make two fire basic actions with pistol weapons, then move d3 inches.
Snap Fire - ready fighter may make action at fhigther just shot them with pistol or basic.
Quick Fire - play when activating, while under fihgter card, fighter move increased by 2. [Andy suggest combining with his clamber-skilled, 7in move escher champion]
Divine motivation - duration of battle, soemthing with cool checks.
Themed around House Cawdor - even the broader ones.
Advantages of cawdor
aggresive, upfront, in your face
not tough and durable
versatile - lots of options
when playing against van saar for example - almost one trick pony, on shooting, although they can surprise in CC - on whole close range, versatile, finish them off with polearms and chain
who struggle against most? no central weakspot - gangs on a spectrum - goliath one end, big tough, little bit shooty, cvan saar at other end - cawdor in middle, escher in CC range but not as tough. Delaque ? Orlock shooty but tough and all-rounders. But Cawdor not got great range (only the heavy stubber really and perhaps long rifle).
House characters
Cawdor House character done - handed off to production - but can say no more.
Kria for Escher - agents for house, as with Slade - out soon.
[..]
In the match
crossbow - 15s, 30l. frag is 5'' blast. s4. knockback.
We’ll be previewing Gang War 4 on Monday, but for now, we can confirm that you’ll find brutes – super-sized gangers like the “Arachni-rig” servo suit and Cawdor Stig-shambler, as well as rules for Necromunda’s first psykers!
See now I want to see the female Cawdor pretending to be SoBs. That sounds awesome.
I'm also very glad they didn't roll the Reds into Cawdor to simplify things, and are sticking with "All fire. All the time!" as the motif for the Reds.
BrookM wrote: Makes me wonder if they'll do an almanac and if so, how big a mess that one will be..
Well people have been asking for a compilation book just for ease of use for gaming. If anything an almanac would clear the air on some things, since they have had time to polish and make more firm decisions on things. They were writing rules for these gangs as they were being sculpted. The good thing is it allows them to bounce ideas off each other in development, downside is the first couple books for this game were rough and unpolished because of time constraints. And if my memory serves me the guy who wrote the core rules for this edition bailed and left them to figure out the rest. Gang war 3 was a solid book and if things keep going in that direction the game might hit its stride. I'm not at all worried about the almanac, cause the blood bowl one was pretty good.
It would be huge though, and I don't fancy buying the same rules again.
I guess I'm locked in until the releases after the combined book (if there is one), but then again can I wait a year to maybe get all the rules in one?
Since I have already bought the 3 Gang Wars books, it'll be easier for me to just get the final (?) one and be done with it. A compendium would be nice, and is what they should have done to start with, but I'm most of the way there anyway.
Is GWar4 the last one?
I believe it was one of the later Necromunda Magazines that included a handy "Where are all the rules?" section that told you which magazine, or Gang War magazine (which were great!), or book had what rule, what were official (Chaos Cults), which were experimental (Genestealer Cults) and which were just there for fun (Vampires!).
I'll buy the rules when they present them in a format that offers value for money and ease of use, ie a compilation in one book. If they put one out it might suck for people who've been going along with the pay-as-you-go model, but to be fair you did choose to go along with it, you could have waited and borrowed copies in the meantime.
Baxx wrote: What Necromunda Magazine is this? I've never heard anything about one cult being official while another is experimental.
And what are vampires in Necromunda?
Compiling all the rules into one single document is very helpful in this game.
This was for the original Necromunda game not the new one. Back then rules were provided in White Dwarf, Citadal Journal and a Necrumnda Magazine so was much easier to loose track.
Yodhrin wrote: I'll buy the rules when they present them in a format that offers value for money and ease of use, ie a compilation in one book. If they put one out it might suck for people who've been going along with the pay-as-you-go model, but to be fair you did choose to go along with it, you could have waited and borrowed copies in the meantime.
If everyone waited, who would you have borrowed from? And would GW have even continued making it?
Baxx wrote: What Necromunda Magazine is this? I've never heard anything about one cult being official while another is experimental.
And what are vampires in Necromunda?
Compiling all the rules into one single document is very helpful in this game.
This is from the long long ago.
Gang War Magazine had 6 issues, the last one coming out in 2000. Then game Necromunda Magazine, which had two volumes (thinner issues, then thicker issues).
Looking at Necromunda Magazine 1, Volume 2, we've got:
Official: Pit Slaves, Ash Nomads, Chaos Cultists, Defence Force Deserter, Ratling Snipers, Ogryn Bodyguard, the Redeemer, and a few other things (bike rules, Arbites, etc.).
Experimental: Wyrd Gatherings, Squat Miners, Guilder Gangs,a few other hired guns, and other types of events.
Unofficial: Genestealer Cults, Orks, Ultra-Violent Vampires, plus special trading skills and things like that.
Loads of fun stuff!
There were a lot of similar publications out around the same time. Town Cryer was the Mordheim Magazine, Deathblow was for Warhammer Quest, and there were some others.
Yodhrin wrote: I'll buy the rules when they present them in a format that offers value for money and ease of use, ie a compilation in one book. If they put one out it might suck for people who've been going along with the pay-as-you-go model, but to be fair you did choose to go along with it, you could have waited and borrowed copies in the meantime.
If everyone waited, who would you have borrowed from? And would GW have even continued making it?
...it's not on the customers to buy the stuff the company put no matter what with the hope that they eventually release them all. It's on the company to release stuff people actually want to buy in the first place.
Had they stopped producing Newcromunda due to the books not selling (the books, mind: AFAIK the miniatures are selling really well, even though the sprues are "minimum possible investment" deals) I would have been very sad to see it go... but it would still be GW's fault for not releasing the stuff in a non-diming way.
Yodhrin wrote: I'll buy the rules when they present them in a format that offers value for money and ease of use, ie a compilation in one book. If they put one out it might suck for people who've been going along with the pay-as-you-go model, but to be fair you did choose to go along with it, you could have waited and borrowed copies in the meantime.
If everyone waited, who would you have borrowed from? And would GW have even continued making it?
...it's not on the customers to buy the stuff the company put no matter what with the hope that they eventually release them all. It's on the company to release stuff people actually want to buy in the first place.
Had they stopped producing Newcromunda due to the books not selling (the books, mind: AFAIK the miniatures are selling really well, even though the sprues are "minimum possible investment" deals) I would have been very sad to see it go... but it would still be GW's fault for not releasing the stuff in a non-diming way.
This, and also wargaming is a lot like tech in the hobby sense - there are always "early adopters" who'll buy the expensive beta-version that the sensible people can cadge off of until the people making the stuff get their act together
Flinty wrote: Or you just disassemble the gang war books and slot the pages you need into.a folder.
That won't help you much cause the earlier books have outdated rules and errors which are replaced and corrected in later books. Also the layout would make this an impossible task.
But why would I pay more for the privilege of making my own, crappier version of what GW will likely put out eventually anyway if I don't have to?
I would rather make my own, superior version of what GW has put out. Because I just had to with the re-release of Necromunda. If GW won't do it right, by Jove I will!
I would rather make my own, superior version of what GW has put out.
Please do (and keep updating your compiled version - which is the only reason we keep playing N17).
An editable version would be really nice - so one could add house rules, fix some points and remove unused rules before printing.
Can we expect the fat Cawdor guy from the artwork to make an appearance or so I have to make yet another conversion based on the old Bretonnia Brother Tuck? What about those rat explosives: The Emporer/FW provides?
I'm almost done with replaying Resident Evil 4 and I can hardly wait for those guys. I wonder why
Binabik15 wrote: Can we expect the fat Cawdor guy from the artwork to make an appearance or so I have to make yet another conversion based on the old Bretonnia Brother Tuck? What about those rat explosives: The Emporer/FW provides?
I'm almost done with replaying Resident Evil 4 and I can hardly wait for those guys. I wonder why
They mention a Cawdor character going into production, they might show him off at warhammerfest. They didn't confirm if it would be the fat guy or the scarecrow mask looking character. I would assume it is one of the two though. They really need to get on the ball and release some of the pets, the caryatid which I want really bad, and for heavens sake...the orlock weapons.
from yaktribe
Bionics – when gangers injured – then can fix effects of injuries but taken further. Strong part of 40k and also necromunda – see lots of bionics in artworks – lots of Cawdors, but not so great bionics.
2 levels – more expensive, fixing lasting injury, repair certain effects, as long as functioning. If don’t have creds, then can get mundane bionics – dug out from a servo skull lying in bin, fixing some of problem.
If you take a lasting injury on a place with a bionic, it might absorb it – but if roll a 1 the bionic is damaged or destroyed.
But the bionics help you fix lasting injured exceptional gangers.
AH’s Escher gangers – leader took a lasting injury first game – and then avoided combat – finally corrected now.
Cheaper than buying advances to correct an injury.
This is introductory – more will come definitely come later (so not written yet?) – these don’t give advances better than correcting the injury – no super strength or seeing in the dark. They will increase rating of gang – wargear.
-
Skirmish
More to playing Necromunda than playing basic gangers – so this is taken from tournament packs – context of saying we will play 1.1 or 1.2 million blood bowl team and allow a certain number of advances. Codify and do the same for Necromunda – expanded skirmish for 1 off games and for events. AH and John French playing a lot of these lately, buying rare up to a certain value and certain advances. Play up the character of that house.
Added a load of additional content Owen says – so unfair that weapons, brutes and pets, etc, only available during a campaign. Also allows you to create best fits – states of fighters that taken a long to develop – but you can just create them. Building an army for other games similar too.
We wrote these in Jan, and then sent out to contacts in events world, and got feedback, and so these have been tried out in the wild. These should form basis of organised play onwards – not dictating it, but a foundation to build on.
Exotic beasts
Sheen bird – repeat of two weeks ago.
House Brutes
Introduced in GW3, that any gang can take, and these extended to specific houses. Exemplifying characteristics of those houses
House Escher – a chimera – genetic splice, from Escher’s famous experimentations, from things they like mixed together, with claws, feather, fur, man y colours, very attractive, acid, toxic gas, etc. Face inspired by clawed fiends of dark elder, for example. Mharaid loves drawing monsters – worked alongside designers – one day will be a mini – and they are recruiting designers now.
erker – jacked up – too many steroids – he’s completely expanded and swelled up into massive combat drug fuelled muscle. Goliath gone wrong.
Orlock Lugger – guard trade routes and the lugger is armed servitor for convoy missioin, take a bunch with them. A good example of kind of things appearing in necromunda – lots of things used by gangs are officially manufactured to be weapons. Put guns on servitors on servitors that don’t have business having weapons on them because tough and useful.
Arachnarid – pushed beyond normal limits of human-machine engineering – huge spider multiarmed servosuit – influential member of house or one of those vansaars so old – pushing 30 - bodies so wasted and ruined by radiation – that you get one and lock yourself into it and pretend god of battle and crawl up walls. Can re[lace servo arms with other guns. Dave Thomas designed actual van saar plastics very keen to make this.
Cawdor – Stig Shambler – saw a bit last week. Stigs because they bear stigmata – a semi-mutation just about tolerated – ie no weird bits – big dim-witted shambling monstrosity with little guy on back shooting machine gun. Slaw-jawed behemoth, put a sack on head, couple of nails, a guiy with gun and you are away. Idea from original round of concepts in late 2016, mark Bedford did a whole lot of concept sketches including leaders and bounty hunters, including this one – mark called this grandad and initial idea, these collect stuff – relics – and that idea taken forward.
Dominion campaign (dc)
GW1 turf war (tw) – gonna be first format of campaign and this is second one – tw is designed to be simple league structure like with blood bowl – number of games, with final. All quite simple. This idea – no wne winner, multiple prizes, different objectless for gangs, carving out territories in underhive complementing gang. Deck of gangs – including in book so don’t need cards – but useful as arbitrator at beginning of campaign determines no of territories and deals out pool of cards, each representing a territory to be fought over. Start with one card – this cant be taken from you. Bonus from it. In first phase of campaign all cards not dealt are unclaimed and so play games for a card to claim it (eg refuse tip), and territories have benefits for all gangs and enhanced benefit for specific gang types. Fight for number of games, and end of campaign, winners are in different categories – kills, territories, reputation, etc.
In Turf War – turf represented by abstract number – but special territories small bonuses.
In DC, essentially creating area you are fighting over. Cards at start depending on number of players – essentially a dome in underhive and everyone turned up.
In second phase of campaign, every game a challenge for a territory. Fun and interesting part – the different abilities the cards have – bonus money or reputation, others more interesting – tactical bonuses – the wastes doesn’t give anything, however it allows you when someone challenges you to choose which territory they go after – you can make them fight them over sump sea rather than refuse tip. Orlock toll bridges adds priority which can be sold to other gangs. Narrative detail. Plus inspiration for boards for games. Use Gangwar 2 hazards – what are appropriate for different missions in the campaign. Rather than one winner 4 or 5 categories – warmonger winner of no of battles, creditor who earns most, dominator most territories, slaughterer most kills, power broken highest reputation.
Background – written by John French – based on campaign he and his group did in evenings some years ago. This format thus does work. Orig 40K campaign but this works and played through to conclusion. 5 dif criteria, you don’t know who is necessarily or what they are going for – so different levels. Lots of really characterful stuff – iconic parts of necromunda. Gives scale of Necromunda – all these settlements around surviving however they can.
AH and Owen hope everyone enjoys it.
Scenarios
Included because people want more scenarios – these more narrative scenarios that people do put effort into.
The Hit – little bit like ambush – risky ambush. Isolated valuable fighter and trying to kill them. This one – attacker gets bonuses – closeness to target, first shot, downside – only small crew to start with. Opponent has a few more on table and start to get reinforcements. Race against time.
Settlement attack – fun one – one side paid to defend settlement, so wall with hefty defences, traps, mines, etc – other gang trying to break in. Essentially knock through wall, to win loot
Escape – one gang trying to escape, like Ceri and Ben played two weeks ago.
Murder Cyborg – AH’s fav – cyborg hiding in gang, as soon as one fighter taken OOA, the cyborg sheds disguise and see what their mission is. AH played many times – seems to always be his gang – making a model to represent an escher turned into cyborg. Using an assassin model, sprayed silver.
Escort – uphive agent trapped in hive, get back to his people, other people try to take him/her out.
Fighter Down – pone of fighters wounded and separated start of seriously injured and you must rescue before other gang find them. Plus rules for carrion creatures who might eat your downed fighter.
Bounty Hunters
Betrum Arturos – noble/guilder bounty hunter
Ottram 88 – psyhound – works for Lord Helmawr. Andy loves the model. First psyker using new psyker rules. 1
Psychic rules
Basic foundation – Otram 88 uses that
Very soon will update GSC and Chaos cult rules – to bring them into line with this system.
Includes perils of the warp.
Introduces manifest psychic power action. ALso focus action – like aim for guns – focus so as to prepare then manifest power to get bonuc.
Uses willpower, higher better.
Abilities – some double actions, some single actions. More powers as they go forward. Otram 88 has own; Magus and cult leaders will have their own powers in future revisions.
Rather than staritng off with restrictive list, will keep adding more and more.
Finish off
2 page reference in skills tables. Psast books was for in games, this for when designing characters.
--
Q. Are these books required
AH – says no. They add more to it, with each part layering extra options on top.
Q. Almanac of gang war?
AH say it is ‘on the cards' but stresses there is no specific date planned.
Wow, I am very, VERY excited by the new play options, as in the Dominion campaign, the one- and two-day campaigns and especially skirmish, which would allow me to get some play in even if we don't have enough people and time to run a proper campaign. And yay, Almanac! I would expect it at the beginning of next year if Blood Bowl is anything to go by.
Genuinely excited by all this, but adding better ways to play the game is the best news. Having a more structured and solid set of rules for building Skirmish gangs will be invaluable for hooking new players as it adds a step between doing a demo game for them and getting into a full-on campaign. The Dominion mode also continues to sound awesome and gives me the tools to run N17 the same way I used to run Mordheim(focused, setting-specific campaigns with defined victory conditions, and an anything-goes "perpetual league" running in the background for folk who wanted extra games).
I very very much hope those low-rent gun servitors are A: a kit and B: plastic rather than a resin single, because ffs GW you need a generic servitor kit, but I know that's likely forlorn.
Almanac coming - good, holding off on buying the books was the right move then.
A tad unfortunate that they based the psyker artwork on a model FW have just discontinued though...
Love the models and pick them up to model and paint, but if there is a single book for complete and revised Necro then I might just have to pick it up. So love the resin stuff coming out of FW for this game.
Semi-mutated Cawdor Master Blasters?! I still think that those even a tiny bit different would become protein sludge in Cawdor, but eh, if the model is good I might need less conversions to add artillery ogres to my Nurgle pirates Too bad the gang kit isn't out already, I could really use it right now.
Goliath Bane monsters are not really a terribly clever concept, either, but again, if the model is cool...I like Bane, anyway.
Plastic servitors are kinda overdue if you ask me. They are one of the more grim and weird things that can happen to a person in the 41st millennium.
I assume the weird spook stuff will come with Delaque along with more psyker rules. Kind of surprised they aren't releasing that reference pack alongside Cawdor with the new tokens. I can't' wait to see what that is priced at. I skipped on the shadespire tile cause I thought it was kind of absurd. I'm just glad Cawdor is finally almost out, and Delaque will be worth the wait. The more gangs out the more worthwhile campaign play is going to be.
Damaged bionics:
Roll a D6. On a 1-3, the Lasting Injury applies as normal.
On a 4+, the effects of the Lasting Injury are ignored.
However, there is a chance that the bionics will be irreparably damaged. Roll a D6. On a 2+, the bionics suffer no long-term effects. On a 1, however, the bionics are damaged beyond repair, the effects of the Lasting Injury are applied and their benefits are lost.
When the bionics are damaged and "the effects of the Lasting Injury are applied", that means the original injury I assume? The fresh one is already ignored?
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H.B.M.C. wrote: That all looks great. GW4 is shaping up to be another GW3, and GW3 was fantastic!
Although...
Q. Are these books required
AH – says no. They add more to it, with each part layering extra options on top.
But... how would you get the rules to the gangs without them?
There are a couple of arguments:
-You got the Gangs of Legends pdf that include all gangs.
-Rules for gangs are not required (or at least, you only need the one book that includes your gang.
Mymearan wrote: Wow, I am very, VERY excited by the new play options, as in the Dominion campaign, the one- and two-day campaigns and especially skirmish, which would allow me to get some play in even if we don't have enough people and time to run a proper campaign. And yay, Almanac! I would expect it at the beginning of next year if Blood Bowl is anything to go by.
That depends. Keep in mind the Blood Bowl almanac came out 6 months after the last death zone 2 book.
Mymearan wrote: Wow, I am very, VERY excited by the new play options, as in the Dominion campaign, the one- and two-day campaigns and especially skirmish, which would allow me to get some play in even if we don't have enough people and time to run a proper campaign. And yay, Almanac! I would expect it at the beginning of next year if Blood Bowl is anything to go by.
Why would you need any rules to play skirmish? If you want to play skirmish, that's easier to just play it than read any rules for it?
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H.B.M.C. wrote: That you should 100% not link on the board, lest the mods jump on you...
I actually got 1 year VIP membership for linking it earlier
Yeah hi, please DO NOT link that sort of thing here. Also, this thread is for the discussion of Necromunda 2017, not fan-projects or previous editions still in use with some groups today. Thanks!
I can't believe they keep wasting time on vague optional rules. Examples from tournament pages:
"It can be interesting to add various bonus points. For example, if you win by a large margin, gain +1 point or if only winning by a minor margin, loser receives +1 point."
This is on par with "it could be really fun to *insert random meaningless thing*".
Or: "award points for taking captives"
If you organize a tournament, do you really want the score to be determined by a random roll at the end of the game to see whether some fighters are taken captive?!?
What is the purpose? I'm sure players themselves can come up with the same or better more balanced ideas, than putting such loose comments in a book. Unless they're going to make clear and rigid instructions, I don't see much value in this.
Much of the random thoughts they put on paper here will also be in direct contradiction with previously released gangs such as Chaos and Bounty Hunters. How about they fix the rules for the game including all gangs and extra contents before making a half-assed attempt at establishing tournament rules?
Just to make another example of how absurd this gets, looking at the "EXAMPLE RULES PACK" for the "TWO-DAY EVENTS":
-distribute 5 Primary skills and 1 Secondary skill to your fighters, however each fighter can have max 2 skills, with the exception of the leader who gets one for free during recruitment (so the leader can have a total of 3 skills). -3 fighters can have a stat increase. This may not be a fighter with 2 skills.
So first off, a Leader can be given 2 skills, everyone else can only be given 1 skill. Fine I guess. But then there is a rule saying that anyone with exactly two skills can not be given a stat increase. So your super leader having 3 skills can get +1T or +1BS or whatever, having a total of 4 advancements? But champs that are given only 1 bonus skill can not be given a stat increase? Is this intentional? It just seems very strange.
Yes, you're wonderful. Other people might need the hint, or at least the figleaf of "official rules". The last thing this game needs is "official instructions", because that makes all events the same. :(
You've misread the Fighter Attributes for the 2-day event. You choose five Primary and a Secondary skill, and then dish them out. You could give a single ganger two skills if you want. Or a single skill and a characteristic upgrade. Yes, you can pile 4 advances onto your leader if you like, but other than that it makes you spread things out.
Leaders, Specialists and Juves can be given 2 bonus skills, champions can be given 1 bonus skill. Anyone with exactly 2 skills can not be given a stat increase. I don't know, it just seems arbitrary and unintentional.
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AndrewGPaul wrote: Yes, you're wonderful. Other people might need the hint, or at least the figleaf of "official rules". The last thing this game needs is "official instructions", because that makes all events the same. :(
I think NAF got some very accurate and rigid Blood Bowl tournament rules, are you suggesting those tournaments don't have variety?
If you want hints on how to do interesting things in Necromunda, you'd be far better served going to a forum where such ideas flourish. How would "anyone can take item with Rare (9) and below including common items" work with Bounty Hunter gangs who already have their own restrictions on Rare items? I don't see much value in this, and if anyone haven't heard that you can make maps to represent territories, I'm not sure they'll fit for organizing a creative and original tournament...
They need to fix things like Blast mechanics, Toxin (yes still not completely solved) and other unclear/missing/game breaking rules before worrying about printing brainstorming ideas for tournaments.
lolman1c wrote: Anyone heard anything about the Palanite Enforcers yet? I need a new Judge for my penal legion.
None. Delaque are next. After that, I suspect they'll do the Outlander gangs (Ratskins, Redemptionist, Scavvies, Spyrers, Pit Slaves, Enforcers). So, next year at a random guess
No we had all the alternative gangs released and there are no new rumors for more. You can find several attempts at fan-made gangs if you want to play them, or use the existing Bounty Hunter rules to create Enforcers (you can make pretty much any gang you want with those rules).
Baxx wrote: No we had all the alternative gangs released and there are no new rumors for more. You can find several attempts at fan-made gangs if you want to play them, or use the existing Bounty Hunter rules to create Enforcers (you can make pretty much any gang you want with those rules).
Er no. We know they're doing Palantine Enforcers(who are not Arbites!), but it's going to be awhile.
Leaders, Specialists and Juves can be given 2 bonus skills, champions can be given 1 bonus skill. Anyone with exactly 2 skills can not be given a stat increase. I don't know, it just seems arbitrary and unintentional.
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AndrewGPaul wrote: Yes, you're wonderful. Other people might need the hint, or at least the figleaf of "official rules". The last thing this game needs is "official instructions", because that makes all events the same. :(
I think NAF got some very accurate and rigid Blood Bowl tournament rules, are you suggesting those tournaments don't have variety?.
Yes. Every Blood Bowl tournament is basically the same stucture. Fine for Blood Bowl, because it's a sports sim. For Necromunda, it'd be a shame if every event used the same format.
Baxx wrote: No we had all the alternative gangs released and there are no new rumors for more. You can find several attempts at fan-made gangs if you want to play them, or use the existing Bounty Hunter rules to create Enforcers (you can make pretty much any gang you want with those rules).
Except Andy Hoare has stated on multiple occasions they'll be doing Outlanders, Enforcers etc.
Baxx wrote: No we had all the alternative gangs released and there are no new rumors for more. You can find several attempts at fan-made gangs if you want to play them, or use the existing Bounty Hunter rules to create Enforcers (you can make pretty much any gang you want with those rules).
Except Andy Hoare has stated on multiple occasions they'll be doing Outlanders, Enforcers etc.
Don't really like the idea of brute. I feel that they take the spotlight off the gangers, and gangers should be the main protagonist in necromunda. Not to mention that they are too gimmicky, and the cawdor one is dumb and unfluffy.
Rest of the content look great though, and the minis are as exceptional as the ones released before
Have they done a sprue preview for Cawdor? I hope we don’t have to assemble each finger individually or the face comes in four parts or anything. The other Necromunda sprues have all been a bit excessive.
plessiez wrote: Have they done a sprue preview for Cawdor? I hope we don’t have to assemble each finger individually or the face comes in four parts or anything. The other Necromunda sprues have all been a bit excessive.
Spoiler:
They actually aren't too bad, heads in two pieces. The thing is there isn't a lot of extra options, the polearms take up a lot of space and so does the crossbow. Compared to Van Saar and the Orlocks they seem less customizable.
They have 2 full head and 4 head with separated faces. The sprue waster this time seem to be the cult icon, Should've been some insane polearm attachment, like a grenade launcher, or a plasma gun.
I know I sound like an old disk with that, but asmuch as I like the quality of newcromunda minis, it's a fragging shame that there is only 1 sprue per gang. Could have added so much more options and customisation if they made 2
streetsamurai wrote: I know I sound like an old disk with that, but asmuch as I like the quality of newcromunda minis, it's a fragging shame that there is only 1 sprue per gang. Could have added so much more options and customisation if they made 2
I suspect being able to pitch "less investment in molds, only need to run one machine set for one sprue, and we can sell them resin upgrade packs" was how an N17 revival got greenlit in the first place. A proper 2-sprue kit would obviously bet better, but if it's a choice between a 1-sprue kit and nothing I'll take the 1-sprue.
Can't deny that the Cawdor one is a bit less appealing though given the big, very unique parts like the gang leader's icon-weapon which will be "wasted" sprue space if you decide to convert and individualise your gang.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Four polearms per sprue is what's taking up a lot of space. They also look super spindly.
Yup. OTOH, best they get that out of the way on the plastic sprue, I wouldn't want that sort of weapon in resin, not on something that has to go in a transport case of any sort certainly.
Two sprues per gang...drool. They could've given us exploding rats on a second sprue! Or a remwke of the burning rat from the Island of Blood warpflamer. And lots of chainswords. Or a sprue with only gun-halberds, because I *really* dig those
But still, a second sprue would allow so many small characterful additions like the Bretonnian snail or Idoneth critters. Just horribly mutated by toxic waste.
Did anyone notice how Scenarios, deployment, reinforcements and Battlefield setup has changed with the new Leader's accessories being released with the new cawdor stuff? Will this overwrite the old stuff in Gang War 1?
Feels like we're gonna pay for patches as DLCs. I'm happy they changed these things (setup was particularly clunky), but it's been 9 months since they were released, and they demand extra money for it. I think they could have done the same with a free pdf a couple of months after GW1. And I suspect these changes will go unnoticed for a lot of players who don't purchase every single small product.
I've given up on N17, frankly. Loved the Fluff, I like skirmish, build a gang games, it had a lot of pluses for me. Then the problems with rules came up, but I still picked up the gangs for a painting project. Liked Escher and Goliath, though the repeated sprues was disappointing, but I hated painting the Van Saar, and my remaining motivation fizzled out from there - I just don't feel like Necromunda as it stands now is worth doing anything towards.
And with GW bringing out Titanicus and the new LOTR, and Kill Team being the new hotness, I just don't think anything is going to change in a significant enough way to make me want to get involved anymore. I know there will be more stuff, yes, but I don't feel like GW is looking to make N17 big - I think the Crappy rules and slow, "buying a game through an unknown number of installments" system has meant a lot of people haven't bothered to invest at all, and frankly, I'm completely soured on the whole experience.
It's such a shame, because it could have been a really great game, but I really do think that GW has screwed up on this one, and I don't think anything beyond a reset will fix it.
Huh, my group are gearing up for another campaign after the summer now - we ran a great one this spring, and now everyone is pretty excited to get going again with (some) new gangs, and new additions for us who plan to continue running our existing ones.
Sure, the rules and model releases are a bit on the slow side, but I think they're doing the best they can with the resources they have - judging from the interviews on Twitch, they could in theory have waited 18 months and released all the gangs at once, but then we would have had to wait to play the game for another year and a half, and that would have been quite a high risk investment for GW (which probably would have meant it wouldn't have been made in the first place).
They only have one dedicated rules writer and one sculptor (they had to borrow a guy from the LotR team to do the Eschers in the start box). It's not meant to be a "major" game, but I'm quite alright with that - I don't have unlimited hobby time and between Necromunda, 40K and now also Kill Team, there are only so many hours a week I can spend on each (and to be honest, I'm not very impressed with the Kill Team rules, in general Necromunda is in my experience so far more fun).
Yes, this game is Early Access, with large parts of the early rules replaced an no longer valid (which includeds most of the core rulebook and GW1). I don't think there's just one guy making the rules, cause there is/was a largeg amount of inconsistencies. Unless that one guy is schizzo.
Now is the best time so far to play Necromunda, it's full of content and fun (more than ever before!).
A large section of the core book has been irrelevant since GW1, gangs have different equipment restriction, and can only choose a few skill, some of them you can't even take in GW1 (i.e Escher Gunfighter). All the price of the equipment/weapons are different.
Zone Mortalis is also not very fun when someone take a large blast weapon, which didn't exist at that time.
Baxx is exaggerating - the rules are not changed, only expanded. There is some confusion about the Underhive rules and the terrain rules in GW1, but those are different game modes, not a rules change. The only things that have really changed are some weapon stats and traits. But all of that is covered by the big collected market in GW3 anyway, so why look in the base rules for that?
The mode in the core rules. Or version if you like It is only defined for Escher and Goliath, i.e. no other gangs, no juves, very few skills and weapons, different costs,stats, skills, senarios. Aka the demo version.
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Oguhmek wrote: Baxx is exaggerating - the rules are not changed, only expanded. There is some confusion about the Underhive rules and the terrain rules in GW1, but those are different game modes, not a rules change. The only things that have really changed are some weapon stats and traits. But all of that is covered by the big collected market in GW3 anyway, so why look in the base rules for that?
The rules have changed and loads of the early rules are now replaced by newer releases.
Large parts of Underhive core rules were replaced at launch. Later, large parts of GW1 have been changed/expanded/replaced too. I'm not refering to Zone Mortalis / Sector Mechanics at all. I'm refering to things like what fighters you can take, what weapons/wargear each fighter can take, what the weapon stats/traits are, how much weapons cost, what their rarity is, how core scenario mechanics work, scenario rewards and more. Not just weapon costs and traits as you imply.
If you want to start an Escher or Goliath gang, you're not going to find the correct information in GW1. Same with the scenarios.
He means Skirmish, where you build a gang and have a small scale battle with no experience and minimal skills, much like 40k or even Kill Team.
Skirmish is actually being updated to include the other gangs and also allow for purchasing skills in GW4 but that will, of course , mean that even more of the RB has been “invalidated” rather than being exactly what they asked for…
Are you guys complaining that Necromunda is constantly growing and updating, or are you complaining that you have to buy the periodical-like updates, or both? What's your "perfect Necromunda" that this edition isn't living up to?
(I haven't played it, but I've been curious for a while, and now that I got some terrain from Kill Team, I was thinking about trying it out - but there's a weirdly negative vibe around the Gang War releases, and I'm curious as to why. Outside of GW2, it appears that they've been substantial expansions)
Sqorgar wrote: Are you guys complaining that Necromunda is constantly growing and updating, or are you complaining that you have to buy the periodical-like updates, or both? What's your "perfect Necromunda" that this edition isn't living up to?
Oh, that’s easy: “Perfect Necromunda” is to have had all of the gangs and rules and scenarios in the starter and still have had more stuff come out since then, but also it was all free and in one big book at the end of the year….
Sqorgar wrote: (I haven't played it, but I've been curious for a while, and now that I got some terrain from Kill Team, I was thinking about trying it out - but there's a weirdly negative vibe around the Gang War releases, and I'm curious as to why. Outside of GW2, it appears that they've been substantial expansions)
Gang War 2 was a bit lacklustre but otherwise the content has been great. I think the majority of the initial bad taste was from when GW1 was released alongside the skirmish game.
Considering the next one (released tomorrow) has not just a gang list but also a brand new campaign system (not a replacement or alteration of the original but a parallel alternative) as well as the base psyker rules and a bunch of new brutes for all the gangs, plus some minor stuff on top, I’d say they’re doing pretty well.
Sqorgar wrote: Are you guys complaining that Necromunda is constantly growing and updating, or are you complaining that you have to buy the periodical-like updates, or both? What's your "perfect Necromunda" that this edition isn't living up to?
Oh, that’s easy: “Perfect Necromunda” is to have had all of the gangs and rules and scenarios in the starter and still have had more stuff come out since then, but also it was all free and in one big book at the end of the year….
I probably should've said "reasonably perfect"...
Also, weren't rules for all the gangs available at the beginning? I thought GW released legacy gang rules.
He means Skirmish, where you build a gang and have a small scale battle with no experience and minimal skills, much like 40k or even Kill Team.
Skirmish is actually being updated to include the other gangs and also allow for purchasing skills in GW4 but that will, of course , mean that even more of the RB has been “invalidated” rather than being exactly what they asked for…
No dude, you can play Skirmish much better with all gangs and equipment using the Gang War system.
I mean, we could do a 1500 credits Skirmish game right now, playing Monster Hunt, Caravan or even the new Murder Cyborg scenario. You can have Van Saar, I can have chaos cultists. You could even bring pets or hangers-on!
Also, weren't rules for all the gangs available at the beginning? I thought GW released legacy gang rules.
Now that we got a complete armoury and trading post, yes those teams can work. Back then, it didn't work at all, cause they could have boltguns, but no info for the actual proper gangs to get boltguns. They were the only ones to have heavy weapon which was the heavy stubber, but it only had rapid fire 1, which made it much worse than a boltgun. And there were no proper trading post so nobody knew how to handle these things. Some of the leaders in that document had worse armour then the rest of the gangs.
It works now, but that's mainly thanks to GW3, now everyone can have heavy stubber or boltgun, and it's precisely defined how to acquire one, for what price & rarity.
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Sqorgar wrote: Are you guys complaining that Necromunda is constantly growing and updating, or are you complaining that you have to buy the periodical-like updates, or both? What's your "perfect Necromunda" that this edition isn't living up to?
(I haven't played it, but I've been curious for a while, and now that I got some terrain from Kill Team, I was thinking about trying it out - but there's a weirdly negative vibe around the Gang War releases, and I'm curious as to why. Outside of GW2, it appears that they've been substantial expansions)
I don't know, I like that the game changes, but it's all very exhausting to stay alert to all the various changes this game has. And while I do buy everything released in this game, I'm not usually complaining about the price of books for example. But when they sell a small pile of paper that updates and changes some mechanics in Gang War 1, well... I think they could do stuff like that for free as pdfs and preferably a lot sooner, maybe 1-2 months after GW1 came out, not 9 months later and at a price.
Baxx wrote: I don't know, I like that the game changes, but it's all very exhausting to stay alert to all the various changes this game has. And while I do buy everything released in this game, I'm not usually complaining about the price of books for example. But when they sell a small pile of paper that updates and changes some mechanics in Gang War 1, well... I think they could do stuff like that for free as pdfs and preferably a lot sooner, maybe 1-2 months after GW1 came out, not 9 months later and at a price.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't collecting everything in the GW books make it easier to keep up with the game changes than a bunch of PDFs would? I mean, I know there is some Necro material in the White Dwarf magazines, but I don't remember which ones and I'd have go look up which issues they were in. It's easier to follow Gang War than if the updates were spread out all over the place.
Obviously, a yearly almanac would be great, but it's got to have something to collect first. It's like comic books. You can wait for the trades - more content, better value - but you'll be a year behind everybody else with a long gap between releases.
Expansions to the game are great. Things like pets, brutes, scenarios... I don't think anyone was complaining about them.
The problems are rules changes that literally replace whole sections of previous books, not because the game evolved but because the original printing was intentionally incomplete, and recurring pointless reprints of whole sections of previous books, whose purpose is clearly to pad out one book's worth of content into 6 books.
lord_blackfang wrote: Expansions to the game are great. Things like pets, brutes, scenarios... I don't think anyone was complaining about them.
The problems are rules changes that literally replace whole sections of previous books, not because the game evolved but because the original printing was intentionally incomplete, and recurring pointless reprints of whole sections of previous books, whose purpose is clearly to pad out one book's worth of content into 6 books.
Exactly. Our group paused buying as soon as we read through GW2. Only one of us picked up GW3 and that's because he wanted to play Van Saar because he liked the models.
We're hoping they eventually do a all-in-one book. However, this drip feed rules delivery has dulled our group's enthusiasm and 40k/other stuff quickly fills up the attention that could have been Necromunda campaign time.
Baxx wrote: I don't know, I like that the game changes, but it's all very exhausting to stay alert to all the various changes this game has. And while I do buy everything released in this game, I'm not usually complaining about the price of books for example. But when they sell a small pile of paper that updates and changes some mechanics in Gang War 1, well... I think they could do stuff like that for free as pdfs and preferably a lot sooner, maybe 1-2 months after GW1 came out, not 9 months later and at a price.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't collecting everything in the GW books make it easier to keep up with the game changes than a bunch of PDFs would? I mean, I know there is some Necro material in the White Dwarf magazines, but I don't remember which ones and I'd have go look up which issues they were in. It's easier to follow Gang War than if the updates were spread out all over the place.
Obviously, a yearly almanac would be great, but it's got to have something to collect first. It's like comic books. You can wait for the trades - more content, better value - but you'll be a year behind everybody else with a long gap between releases.
The "pile of paper" I refered to was actually the Leaders accessories pack. I don't think it's justified to put a price tag on something which basically is a fix to a book you already bought. The rules are all over: (parts of) core rulebooks, (parts of) GW1, GW2, GW3, GW4, Chaos (white dwarf) Genestealer cult (White Dwarf), White Dwarf (Bounty hunters), scenario 7 (white dwarf), scenario 8 (white dwarf), gangs of legend pdf. It's all good stuff, but you need to know which order it all came out in, and which rules has priority cause each single one of them is conflicting with the rest. Each new Gang War book has internal inconsistencies (webber on page x is different than webber on page y) in addition to inconsistencies between books (the same weapon in book X is different than in book Y).
The problems are rules changes that literally replace whole sections of previous books, not because the game evolved but because the original printing was intentionally incomplete, and recurring pointless reprints of whole sections of previous books, whose purpose is clearly to pad out one book's worth of content into 6 books.
I agree, and you are able to explain it more clearly!
The problems are rules changes that literally replace whole sections of previous books, not because the game evolved but because the original printing was intentionally incomplete, and recurring pointless reprints of whole sections of previous books, whose purpose is clearly to pad out one book's worth of content into 6 books.
I haven't read the Gang War books yet (interested in Necro, but yet to dive in), so I'm not sure what specifically you are talking about here. Is it the weapon/equipment lists? I can see how having a singular, updated collection in a single volume could be convenient. Or is it something else? How substantial is the material that is being replaced? Are we talking like half of a Gang War, or just a few pages? If I bought Gang War 4, for example, how much of Gang Wars 1-3 would be made redundant?
Large parts of core rulebook was outdated/replaced at launch:
-page 68-105 (armoury, Escher, Goliath, scenarios)
Some parts of Gang War 1 has been outdated with the latest releases:
-page 21-22 (pre-battle sequence)
-page 30-39 (trading post, armoury, weapon traits)
-page 40-43 (skills)
-page 47 (Goliath equipment list)
-page 51 (Escher equipment list)
-page 52-65 (scenarios)
Gang War 2 is mostly up to date, with some minor parts being updated/replaced:
-page 11 (Orlock equipment list)
-page 30-31 (armoury)
-page 33-39 (wargear, weapon traits)
-page 41-45 (skills)
Gang War 3 is the latest release and so is pretty much completely valid and still in use.
In total, there's a lot of pages you don't want to look at if you wanna play the game correctly, and if you by mistake would take information from these pages, it will certainly or probably be incorrect.
The only real downfall to the game is the release of all the gang war supplements. But it is game workshops model, they do it with codexs and everything else.
The problems are rules changes that literally replace whole sections of previous books, not because the game evolved but because the original printing was intentionally incomplete, and recurring pointless reprints of whole sections of previous books, whose purpose is clearly to pad out one book's worth of content into 6 books.
I haven't read the Gang War books yet (interested in Necro, but yet to dive in), so I'm not sure what specifically you are talking about here. Is it the weapon/equipment lists? I can see how having a singular, updated collection in a single volume could be convenient. Or is it something else? How substantial is the material that is being replaced? Are we talking like half of a Gang War, or just a few pages? If I bought Gang War 4, for example, how much of Gang Wars 1-3 would be made redundant?
I posted a breakdown of GW2 when it came out, link below. GW3 was significantly better but IIRC reprinted all the weapons again. Haven't bought 4 yet.
angel of death 007 wrote: The only real downfall to the game is the release of all the gang war supplements. But it is game workshops model, they do it with codexs and everything else.
I wouldn't complain much about it if all the gang war books just added new stuff, expanding the game. Instead, large parts are fixing or reprinting earlier books. These pages should have been correct from the start or been fixed in free erratas/FAQs.
I posted a breakdown of GW2 when it came out, link below. GW3 was significantly better but IIRC reprinted all the weapons again. Haven't bought 4 yet.
They gonna have to reprint the weapons over again because there's always mistakes in them (like stub gun losing pistol trait in GW2). I'm guessing they're reprinting the skills in GW4 because they're getting fixed too. Or just as filler.
The skills are being reprinted in GW4 as a direct response to player feedback. They're in alphabetical order in GW1 because once a skill is on a model, the group it comes from is irrelevant, you just need to look up its name.
The list in GW4 is in order of category. Not hugely necessary, but it reduces some page-flipping when deciding which skills to add to a fighter.
It could be "filler", but IIRC the skill list would need to be … exactly 8 or 16 pages long, depending on the printing process, for that to be the case.
Ok, the skills are in alphabetical order in GW1 and GW2. At least there's some thought to reprinting it this time. Maybe they'll continue the tradition and reprint the skills in categorical order for GW5 then?
Core rulebook: outdated "dead" skills
GW1: skills, alphabetical order
GW2: skills, alphabetical order
GW4: skills, categorical order
GW5: skills, categorial order?
Even if the model already had skill it would still be easier to look it up by category. Especially when most house only focus on 1 or 2 category, maybe 3 if Leadership count.
Remember which skill belong to what category is simple. Remember which page and which section of said skill in the book to look at is not, you basicly had to scan through pages each time with alphabetical skill listing. That's annoying.
How so? Look at fighter card/ gang roster, read skill name. Look up skill name in list. As opposed to: look at fighter card for skill name. Look up list of skill categories to find which one the skill's in. Look up skill.
I can honestly say that the game just keeps getting better and better with each new release. Just need FW to start putting out the mercs, heavies, and pets - as I want everything to do with Necromunda. The psyker rules seem well-thought out, I love the fluffing out of Cawdor, the new weapons are brilliant (especially the bomb rats), and everything is just so bloody great. I hope we might get a glimpse of the Cawdor weapon set(s) at WarhammerFest Europe - and that it contains a number of rat accessories a la some of the art.
Having read about female Cawdor off-shoots, I wonder if they might serve as the even-more fanatical Redemptionists (inspired by Sisters of Silence, Sister of Battle, etc) - which would resolve the hood issues nicely. Even if we only get a one-off merc themed thusly, it would still be awesome.
Clockpunk wrote: I can honestly say that the game just keeps getting better and better with each new release. Just need FW to start putting out the mercs, heavies, and pets - as I want everything to do with Necromunda. The psyker rules seem well-thought out, I love the fluffing out of Cawdor, the new weapons are brilliant (especially the bomb rats), and everything is just so bloody great. I hope we might get a glimpse of the Cawdor weapon set(s) at WarhammerFest Europe - and that it contains a number of rat accessories a la some of the art.
Having read about female Cawdor off-shoots, I wonder if they might serve as the even-more fanatical Redemptionists (inspired by Sisters of Silence, Sister of Battle, etc) - which would resolve the hood issues nicely. Even if we only get a one-off merc themed thusly, it would still be awesome.
These are some really great ideas, sign me on for some of those as well!
I suspect the number of Cawdor kits sold for conversion fodder / kitbashing purposes will outnumber those used for actual Cawdor gangs by several orders of magnitude.
Duskweaver wrote: I suspect the number of Cawdor kits sold for conversion fodder / kitbashing purposes will outnumber those used for actual Cawdor gangs by several orders of magnitude.
If GW don't include a datasheet for Frateris Militia in the eventual nuSisters codex and basically say "if you want to use this buy Cawdor", they'll be missing a trick.
True. There're almost no weapon and equipment restrictions anymore. Leader with mining laser, Neophytes with Heavy rock drill, Acolytes with Web gun... Even the Aberrants can now take all the close combat weapons (like a Shock whip).
No, it's only Wargear - goggles, chem-synths, that sort of thing. IIRC that's also allowed in the standard game rules too, but I don't have them handy to check.
If you look at the Genestealer Cult Equipment list, you'll see that "Wargear" is one category of equipment, separate to Weapons. It includes Grenades, Armour, Personal Equipment and Exotic Beasts.
Bolt pistols (and web pistols, I assume?) are in the Trading Post, so not completely prohibited.
The difference is that the Genestealer Cult Neophyte and Acolyte sprues aren't designed with Necromunda in mind, so perhaps it's not necessarily a given that every weapon on the sprue will be in the Genestealer Cult Equipment List.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Bolt pistols (and web pistols, I assume?) are in the Trading Post, so not completely prohibited.
The difference is that the Genestealer Cult Neophyte and Acolyte sprues aren't designed with Necromunda in mind, so perhaps it's not necessarily a given that every weapon on the sprue will be in the Genestealer Cult Equipment List.
The sprues were definitely designed with necromunda in mind. They just weren't designed with this particular edition of necromunda in mind.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're still missing the Bolt Pistol and Web Pistol, two things on the GSC sprue.
I would say the good thing with Gang War 3 is that we no longer miss any weapons. I should say almost, cause we still don't have autocannon and powerfist. But we got more than ever before of existing and new stuff. Thanks to the proper trading post now, any gang has clearly defined rules on how to obtain a bolt pistol or web pistol. Don't be put of just cause they're not in the house weapon list. That's what campaigns are for!
Ok.. so I was wrong. They just wrote it really small on the page right before it says all this stuff is Cawdor exclusive (including the rifle and chain glaive SMH).
So my cancer boys will be able to snipe it up! Rare 9 and only 30 creds, the glaive is 10 and 60.
Still mad acolytes don't have 2 wounds, it kind of makes them the worst champs in the game. But at least they can take more optimal weapons, now.
I'd be super excited to convert Aberrants with a variety of different melee weapons if I hadn't literally finished building my last 4 tonight (with standard gear, suitable for Kill Team). Ah well, I'll do it when the new sculpts hit.
Still mad acolytes don't have 2 wounds, it kind of makes them the worst champs in the game. But at least they can take more optimal weapons, now.
They won't be getting 2W because can cheese pretty hard with Infiltrate + demo charge. Which is pretty devastating with cards. They single-handedly broke the entire 2d Underhive game. And the only gang that can counter this strat is Goliath using cards. They even raise the demo charge to 65 credit now.
Still mad acolytes don't have 2 wounds, it kind of makes them the worst champs in the game. But at least they can take more optimal weapons, now.
They won't be getting 2W because can cheese pretty hard with Infiltrate + demo charge. Which is pretty devastating with cards. They single-handedly broke the entire 2d Underhive game. And the only gang that can counter this strat is Goliath using cards. They even raise the demo charge to 65 credit now.
Fair enough, but I approach everything about game balance from a campaign perspective (and, with what I can admit might be off-putting arrogance, also view 3D campaign as the "superior" or "true" form of the game). Although I don't resent anyone who enjoys the other modes.
Infiltrating demo charges aren't that effective in a campaign. They might work once, but the next time you play that opponent (or anyone who spoke to them) they will deploy more diffusely. Also, the Acolytes will die literally every game, and even if they avoid injuries and death their Cult's economy will tank.
If that was the end of the story, things would be fine -- having a devastating alpha strike build available hurts the game overall, so it's fair for a GSC player to be punished for attempting it. But the problem extends to more mundane builds, since Acolytes are extremely easy to pick on at basically all times, and a merciless opponent can deliberately devastate your economy.
However, Familiars will be a huge defensive boost now, for a very reasonable cost, so even Acolytes are looking better.
Still mad acolytes don't have 2 wounds, it kind of makes them the worst champs in the game. But at least they can take more optimal weapons, now.
They won't be getting 2W because can cheese pretty hard with Infiltrate + demo charge. Which is pretty devastating with cards. They single-handedly broke the entire 2d Underhive game. And the only gang that can counter this strat is Goliath using cards. They even raise the demo charge to 65 credit now.
Fair enough, but I approach everything about game balance from a campaign perspective (and, with what I can admit might be off-putting arrogance, also view 3D campaign as the "superior" or "true" form of the game). .
The thing is, while the designers probably agree with your first point, they absolutely don't agree with the second (for example, one important bit of tactical advice I've seen from them is "if you're having trouble on Sector Mechanicum setups, try fighting on Zone Mortalis if that plays to your strengths"), so any balancing absolutely will take that into account.
cainex1 wrote: Ok.. so I was wrong. They just wrote it really small on the page right before it says all this stuff is Cawdor exclusive (including the rifle and chain glaive SMH).
So my cancer boys will be able to snipe it up! Rare 9 and only 30 creds, the glaive is 10 and 60.
That's the one thing I find very odd - I don't understand why the chain glaive is openly available to all gangs, as it is depicted very much as a Cawdor special (a la the pole-weapons). The long rifle, absolutely (and I'm hoping those will feature prominently for Delaque). Either way, the chain glaive alone will make the cawdor weapon set an essential purchase.
I like the new Genestealer rules I think. A bit bummed the Acolytes didn’t gained the extra wound or movement, but the tightening everything else up is nice. Also I love those Cawdor conversions and might have to do that...
I'd be super excited to convert Aberrants with a variety of different melee weapons if I hadn't literally finished building my last 4 tonight (with standard gear, suitable for Kill Team). Ah well, I'll do it when the new sculpts hit.
Yes, exactly! Got all my models ready, now I want leader with heavy weapon, aberrant with sword etc.
That's why I waited for scans to appear. Soon as I saw how badly proofread they were (something this second version rightly fixes), I knew I'd be avoiding the WD gangs.
Now just waiting for Chaos and Bounty Hunter gangs to be further updated and released online.
Gang War 4 has a "Warhammer 40,000 Universe" logo on the back near the barcode that I've not seen before (certainly not on any of the other Necromunda books). Presumably this will be on Adeptus Titanicus too. Has anyone seen it on any other "side games"? Kill Team, for example?
zend wrote: Question for people that have read Gang War 4:
Can Venator Gangs take the House specific Brutes as Hanger-Ons?
From my read of it, seems not. There is no specific mention otherwise so unless they FAQ it, I would lean heavily to no.
Thanks, i'll keep my eyes open for an FAQ that specifies. If it ever does come up I expect they'll flat out say no, but it would be pretty sweet if you could hire Brutes from the House your Leader's legacy is from.
I really like that Cawdor Brute's design, so I might kitbash a Champion with an approximated loadout and statline for the time being once I get my hands on it's profile.
These sculpts are amazing. I didn't care at all for the models from the 1990s except maybe the plastic Orlocks, but I absolutely love each gang FW has released for this new edition.
Elbows wrote: That leader figure is a great figure...ruined by GW's fething obsession with god damn lit candles...seriously.
There's a meme in there with balancing your starving's gang budget and credits spent on candles
I like them, though. I'm a big fan of candles on grimdark stuff. Except for the stupid candles on Reikenor's horse's head. Those clearly belong on the saddle or something, not on the horse's head!
After reading the whole of Gang War 4, the result is mixed. The new content is mostly good and interesting:
-Cawdor gang, new weapons, equipment, pet -Gang specific Brutes -2 new special characters / bounty hunters -new Dominion territories -6 new scenarios -bionic -psyker rules
Then, as always in this beta early-access game, there's all the bugs: -inconsistent weapon profiles (Orlock brute's harpoon got a new long range, Van Saars brute's rad gun is more powerful, Escher's brute got different talons than Escher's pet, cawdor brute's polearm doesn't have the standard polearm special rule...) -badly named cawdor weapons, polearm/autogun got reclaimed stats -reclaimed autopistol got -1" short range for some absurd reason -combi autogun/flamer doesn't have combi trait
This is all normal and how they operate, refusing to keep weapon profiles consistent. The result is, any time my friends ask "what's the strength of that weapon" or "what's the range of that weapon", I either say "I don't know" or "that depends what page you look at".
Another tradition of the Gang War series is all the reprints. We got heavy amounts in Gang War 4: exotic beasts, advancements, experience, injuries, captured, fleeing and skills. That's a lot of pages! My favourite is the exotic beasts, which states "exotic beasts have their own skill table at the end of this section", except they don't, cause the skill table isn't reprinted.
What really pisses me off though is the skirmish rule, tournament rules and partially the dominion campaign rules. This is almost completely worthless information and includes things like if you play in a small venue, use 2d terrain and if you play in a larger venue, use 3d terrain. Are we as players not able to manage our own games without this micromanagement? It's just looase thoughts written on paper, mainly just useless information like it could be fun to do this, or maybe give an extra point if the opponent has a major victory. Really?
All in all, I can't really recommend this book. Not to casual players and not to players who want good value and a book that makes sense. This game is still mainly for enthusiasts who are willing to sacrifice a lot of garbage pages for some few good ones.
I would have preferred the reclaimed weapons take a bit of a range ding mechanically... and I'm not sure why the combi autogun/flamer is 30 creds cheaper than the flamer alone. Is the extra ammo roll really worth that much of a difference or is it likely a mistake?
Clockpunk wrote: I would have preferred the reclaimed weapons take a bit of a range ding mechanically... and I'm not sure why the combi autogun/flamer is 30 creds cheaper than the flamer alone. Is the extra ammo roll really worth that much of a difference or is it likely a mistake?
Because the writer didn't check the cost of one before typing in the cost of the other.
Baxx wrote:Are we as players not able to manage our own games without this micromanagement?
You have read the forum before, haven't you? There is, sadly, quite a number of people who won't do anything "unofficial".
But how can they use the rules to decide whether to use Sector Mechanicus or Zone Mortalis based on venue floor space, when the rules don't specify the difference between "large" and "small" space? At least they can read the rules to understand when to drink tea... Maybe it would be more useful to include rules for who is the challenger to decide what Territory is at stake, and who is going to refuse or accept the challenge. I wonder if Necromunda players are starving or sleep depraved, cause the rules doesn't specify when or what to eat and sleep.
The image of the resin Cawdor hero got removed from the warhammerfest live blog page. Not sure if there's anything of meaning behind that. But it is kind of strange to me.
Thargrim wrote: The image of the resin Cawdor hero got removed from the warhammerfest live blog page. Not sure if there's anything of meaning behind that. But it is kind of strange to me.
Did they just remove him or all forgeworld stuff? I wonder if there was blowback on the FW price hike attached to it.
Thargrim wrote: The image of the resin Cawdor hero got removed from the warhammerfest live blog page. Not sure if there's anything of meaning behind that. But it is kind of strange to me.
Did they just remove him or all forgeworld stuff? I wonder if there was blowback on the FW price hike attached to it.
Only him, the cawdor resin weapon are still on the page.
From what I heard, someone photoshopped him and changed all his clothing from blues and browns to white. In the US a guy in white robes with a pointy hat and nooses hanging off him is not a welcome site. So he may have been removed because of that.
I swear if they drop that awesome model because someone chucked a hissy over it kinda-sorta-maybe-if you squint at it sideways could potentially look a bit like a Klansman...
That is what I was afraid of, the last thing GW should be doing is backing down cause we're living in a time where people get butthurt over the tiniest things. Especially stuff in fiction, reminds me of the nutty reaction some people had to the joke in some Doom Eternal footage.
If they don't release it that would be insane though, i'd have to write a letter.
Elbows wrote: That leader figure is a great figure...ruined by GW's fething obsession with god damn lit candles...seriously.
There's a meme in there with balancing your starving's gang budget and credits spent on candles
I like them, though. I'm a big fan of candles on grimdark stuff. Except for the stupid candles on Reikenor's horse's head. Those clearly belong on the saddle or something, not on the horse's head!
I like the candles too. I mean, they’d go out straight away, but still. Maybe they’re those joke ones for cakes that you can’t blow out.
I'll be pissed if that Cawdor character doesn't get released.
Also, speaking of things that were never released, I swear someone said there would be an Orlock sprue with female ganger parts. Was that just wishful thinking?
Thargrim wrote: That is what I was afraid of, the last thing GW should be doing is backing down cause we're living in a time where people get butthurt over the tiniest things. Especially stuff in fiction, reminds me of the nutty reaction some people had to the joke in some Doom Eternal footage.
If they don't release it that would be insane though, i'd have to write a letter.
I follow the guy who sculpted it on instagram and there were a number of Americans complaining that the guy had sculpted a model that too closely resembled a hooded KKK member. I couldn't help but feel that it was a bit of outrage culture mixed with the occasionally seen behaviour of Americans feeling that their cultural history is ultimate (Ie, a pointed hood must represent KKK and not, as intended, the Spanish inquisition). It will be quite disappointing if this model doesn't get released simply because people lack any subtlety.
Honestly id just remove the extra nooses from him I think those are things giving more of the KKK vibe as I said on yak all cawdor guys get nooses cause they feel worthy of the punishment which fits into the "repenting" vibe, the pointy hoods are also a symbol of penance (capirote) as they remove ability to see people as different heights or facially different so force everyone to be equal. I think issue is it gets weirder to have executioner guy having the pointy hood + extra nooses cause it looks more like he will hang people, the normal cawdor masks are closer to executioners ones (which are only to hide face from the criminal so not to be cursed not to make the executioner equal to everyone)
I really like the design but I can see swapping out the extra nooses and going back to 1 self noose or swapping the hood might be a better move as I think they clash a little (they sorta clash with executioner as a punishment role and pointy hood as a self punishing symbol), have one or the other. Personally id rather he keep the hood and get a more interesting chest piece, maybe patchwork armour (cawdor mesh) or some relic around his neck.
Thargrim wrote: That is what I was afraid of, the last thing GW should be doing is backing down cause we're living in a time where people get butthurt over the tiniest things. Especially stuff in fiction, reminds me of the nutty reaction some people had to the joke in some Doom Eternal footage.
If they don't release it that would be insane though, i'd have to write a letter.
I follow the guy who sculpted it on instagram and there were a number of Americans complaining that the guy had sculpted a model that too closely resembled a hooded KKK member. I couldn't help but feel that it was a bit of outrage culture mixed with the occasionally seen behaviour of Americans feeling that their cultural history is ultimate (Ie, a pointed hood must represent KKK and not, as intended, the Spanish inquisition). It will be quite disappointing if this model doesn't get released simply because people lack any subtlety.
Pointy hoods had literally nothing to do with Spanish Inquisition... Redemptionists where clearly designed to look like a parody of KKK members, even if KKK members themselves take the Hood from Catholic Christian nazarenos. (Not saying this to defend that the model shouldn't be made. It is beautifull. And I have 0 problems with pointy hoods. Here in spain they are a very common sight in Holy Week)
The use of it was prescribed as a punishement, but it wasn't used by the Spanish Inquisition. When you think about spanish inquisition, you don't think about the capirote.
Frozen Ocean wrote: Because we should definitely try to avoid offending the poor KKK by basing some crazed murder-cult on them!
Pretty sure the intention isn't to "avoid offending the poor KKK" but rather to not make something that might potentially be misconstrued as 'celebrating' them?
For what it's worth, it's a cool model...but I can kinda/sorta see why they might not want to release it in light of the comparisons. It's not the first thing that comes to mind when I think "Spanish Inquisition".
Frozen Ocean wrote: Because we should definitely try to avoid offending the poor KKK by basing some crazed murder-cult on them!
Pretty sure the intention isn't to "avoid offending the poor KKK" but rather to not make something that might potentially be misconstrued as 'celebrating' them?
That's silly, though. Cawdor are not a positive depiction of anything, in the same way that the highly Nazi-inspired Empire from Star Wars isn't celebrating Nazis.
Frozen Ocean wrote: That's silly, though. Cawdor are not a positive depiction of anything, in the same way that the highly Nazi-inspired Empire from Star Wars isn't celebrating Nazis.
I think maybe the idea is that even the potential insinuation, no matter how subtle, to the KKK, is seen as something to be frowned upon. I don't think it's the kind of debate that can be won though, certainly not in today's culture. Some people will be offended and others won't.
Frozen Ocean wrote: Because we should definitely try to avoid offending the poor KKK by basing some crazed murder-cult on them!
Pretty sure the intention isn't to "avoid offending the poor KKK" but rather to not make something that might potentially be misconstrued as 'celebrating' them?
That's silly, though. Cawdor are not a positive depiction of anything, in the same way that the highly Nazi-inspired Empire from Star Wars isn't celebrating Nazis.
Did I miss the film showcasing Cawdor's flaws?
Not saying it's a good idea or a bad one, just that it's likely the idea there. The model is the model and the fluff is the fluff, but the person on the outside looking in might just see something that looks remarkably like a Klansman and make a judgement accordingly.
Frozen Ocean wrote: That's silly, though. Cawdor are not a positive depiction of anything, in the same way that the highly Nazi-inspired Empire from Star Wars isn't celebrating Nazis.
I think maybe the idea is that even the potential insinuation, no matter how subtle, to the KKK, is seen as something to be frowned upon. I don't think it's the kind of debate that can be won though, certainly not in today's culture. Some people will be offended and others won't.
The issue as well is the assumption of "offense". Why make things easy for those who want to be offensive trolls?
I really hope that it isn't the case. I'm very much in the so-called "SJW" camp, but this would really be the wrong reason to take action on something.
Kanluwen wrote: The issue as well is the assumption of "offense". Why make things easy for those who want to be offensive trolls?
I guess because it seems like an unwinnable battle. There will always be contrarian or bigoted ideologies and ideas. And humans will always come to make new associations relative to those ideas. Look at what happened after the Charlottesville rally, how tiki-torches became associated with the alt-right. Should we ban people from walking down the street with torches because the association may offend people? Or what about how the high and tight haircut began to be worn quite commonly by alt-righters, should we ban those too?
Frozen Ocean wrote: I really hope that it isn't the case. I'm very much in the so-called "SJW" camp, but this would really be the wrong reason to take action on something.
Literally all you need to do is ditch the nooses or the hood in all likelihood. Even just altering the hood to be more like an executioner's would be a big step in making things a bit more 'easily identifiable'.
Kanluwen wrote: The issue as well is the assumption of "offense". Why make things easy for those who want to be offensive trolls?
I guess because it seems like an unwinnable battle. There will always be contrarian or bigoted ideologies and ideas. And humans will always come to make new associations relative to those ideas. Look at what happened after the Charlottesville rally, how tiki-torches became associated with the alt-right. Should we ban people from walking down the street with torches because the association may offend people? Or what about how the high and tight haircut began to be worn quite commonly by alt-righters, should we ban those too?
You're mistaking "bans" with "a company making the decision to change things themselves".
It's more that I don't think associating a miniature with the KKK, in this case, is a bad thing. Even just from a visual perspective and forgetting everything about the background, the model is very much some kind of dirty, crazy cultist. Having visual ties to the KKK (intentional or not) just reinforces that. Because that's what the KKK was. It'd be a lot different if the Stormcast Eternals (ie a "good" faction) were depicted with white robes and pointy hoods, with burning crosses as weapons and names like "Purifiers" and so on.
EDIT: Basically I mean that context matters a lot in matters like these.
Frozen Ocean wrote: Because we should definitely try to avoid offending the poor KKK by basing some crazed murder-cult on them!
Pretty sure the intention isn't to "avoid offending the poor KKK" but rather to not make something that might potentially be misconstrued as 'celebrating' them?
That's silly, though. Cawdor are not a positive depiction of anything, in the same way that the highly Nazi-inspired Empire from Star Wars isn't celebrating Nazis.
Unfortunately, these days depiction is considered equivalent to endorsement by a lot of people. Intent, history, context, all are meaningless in the face of people who have decided that if something can be interpreted to mean something bad, that is equivalent to and indistinguishable from it actually being bad and that being the goal of the work. You bring up Star Wars as a way to illustrate how daft the idea is, but there are plenty of folk out there who will argue in all seriousness that the tendency in the newer films for the First Order's leadership to come off as whiny and incompetent is actually brilliant, because the Empire reinforced false narratives about the baddies being "cool" by not being whiny simpering morons during every single moment of screen time, and there is a technically-extant possibility some delusional whackadoos might transfer that sentiment to the real inspiration for the Empire.
Of course there are people who argue that, but there's always someone who supports just about any argument. That doesn't mean that those people are relevant to our discussion, though, because I assume that everyone here is at least some degree of reasonable.
However, even though misplaced, I do appreciate Forge World/GWtrying. If that is indeed what this is about and not something completely unrelated like some hilarious accident at the FW office.
Frozen Ocean wrote: That's silly, though. Cawdor are not a positive depiction of anything, in the same way that the highly Nazi-inspired Empire from Star Wars isn't celebrating Nazis.
But there are plenty of people who do think that way.
I mean, I saw that mini and instantly thought of the classic executionier motif (only in Cawdor colours). Covered head to hide identity from the village, big axe for lopping the heads off the guilty/heretics, and so on. The KKK never came into my thought process.
But for some people, it's all they think of. They see white supremacy everywhere, and live to fight imaginary Nazis. Is it any wonder people complained to the sculptor about it.
Kanluwen wrote: Literally all you need to do is ditch the nooses or the hood in all likelihood. Even just altering the hood to be more like an executioner's would be a big step in making things a bit more 'easily identifiable'.
Or don't. Instead, screw those people, because if they win this, then the new Reds, when they come out, will be completely fethed, and they'll be toned down as to not offend the perpetually offended.
Yodhrin wrote: You bring up Star Wars as a way to illustrate how daft the idea is...
I've seen people argue that if you like Darth Vader you are basically saying that you support Nazi ideology.
Desperately, and they need to not infect them with identity politics... I fall pretty squarely on the free speech absolutist side so obviously I don't think this should be shelved. I didn't even think of the connection till I read about it here. That does explain why I had to look a little harder for that executioner, though.
This is America 2018...we're ruining careers and bankrupting companies because somebody, somewhere was offended. It's our new national past time. It's almost as fun as Necromunda.
Why have confirmation when we can be wildly swinging at strawmen?
Edit: I had really hoped the Delaque would have shown up already so we could see what their iteration will look like this time around. Hopefully some time soon after their release we can get some rule compendium to make jumping into this game a bit more palatable.
H.B.M.C. wrote: But there are plenty of people who do think that way.
I mean, I saw that mini and instantly thought of the classic executionier motif (only in Cawdor colours). Covered head to hide identity from the village, big axe for lopping the heads off the guilty/heretics, and so on. The KKK never came into my thought process.
But for some people, it's all they think of. They see white supremacy everywhere, and live to fight imaginary Nazis. Is it any wonder people complained to the sculptor about it.
Well, white supremacy is everywhere. But my point is that depictions of the KKK aren't inherently racist. Regardless of whether or not this is KKK inspired, it's not a bad thing either way because the design is supposed to represent a crazy extremist zealot. There is no way that such a character can be mistaken as "pro-KKK". If it were, obviously there'd be a problem. Much like how Marvel's HYDRA, a Nazi organisation, are not a problem, but it was a problem when that guy decided to make Captain America a Nazi the whole time and that Nazis really won the war, the Allies just used magic to steal their victory!
H.B.M.C. wrote: I've seen people argue that if you like Darth Vader you are basically saying that you support Nazi ideology.
While those people are ridiculous and do exist, as I said before, I assume that everyone here is at least slightly reasonable. In other words, those extreme people aren't here and pretending that they are is just hyperbole.
Sqorgar wrote: Do we have confirmation that the model was removed for this reason, or is this just speculation?
Speculation so far, I believe. I really find it hard to believe that this is the actual reason. It's just so tenuous.
While those people are ridiculous and do exist, as I said before, I assume that everyone here is at least slightly reasonable. In other words, those extreme people aren't here and pretending that they are is just hyperbole.
I don't think anyone's saying they're here, in this thread, calling from inside the house etc. Just that that sort of outrage mongering is hardly unheard of both outwith and, recently, very much within nerdy culture.
Hey guys, quick noob question; any rumours of the next gang and if/when they’re coming? Trench coat dudes with smiley masks would make my day but I assume that’s a little too specific haha
If they screw up Ratskins... I will be cross.. to say the least.
Anyway, to keep it on topic, let me link the concept art for the last main gang, they should hit early in November. And aside from Ratskins this was the only other gang I thought about building back in the day.
cainex1 wrote: If they screw up Ratskins... I will be cross.. to say the least.
Anyway, to keep it on topic, let me link the concept art for the last main gang, they should hit early in November. And aside from Ratskins this was the only other gang I thought about building back in the day.
Ooooo, these dudes would be sweet, I’m keen just from that one concept haha
Desperately, and they need to not infect them with identity politics... I fall pretty squarely on the free speech absolutist side so obviously I don't think this should be shelved. I didn't even think of the connection till I read about it here. That does explain why I had to look a little harder for that executioner, though.
You know, even though I agree with you in this instance, I can't help but find funny the fact that you self identify as a "free speech absolutist" in the same sentence you're basically telling people to shut up
I'm on for 2 boxes of Cawdor. One for me, and one for you easily offended types. I'll add a double helping of kill in the game, and think of you while I lay waste to all comers.
In the states, who has had issue getting things from Forgeworld?
I've been trying to get a hold of the Necromunda stuff for a while, now, and the card issue is stopping the spice from flowing. Has anyone else had this issue?
Do people really hate the candles that much? I've seen enough comments about it around that it must be true. I don't like them, but I don't hate them either. I'm 100% neutral on them.
Honestly I'm not 100% wowed by the Cawdor minis in the first place. They're the one I didn't immediately go out and buy unlike all the others (got 30 of each of the other gangers). That said, having seen how well they work with GSC bitz, I may break for that.
lord_blackfang wrote: I tole y'all back when N17 started that parody KKK, and parody indians, won't fly in 2017+
[Current Year] arguments are bs. They should stick to the aesthetic of what they are.
Tiberius501 wrote: Hey guys, quick noob question; any rumours of the next gang and if/when they’re coming? Trench coat dudes with smiley masks would make my day but I assume that’s a little too specific haha
Smiley faces? I doubt that.
But the new Delaques, from the briefest of concept art we've seen, have a very Dark City vibe to them.
Elbows wrote: That leader figure is a great figure...ruined by GW's fething obsession with god damn lit candles...seriously.
It.......waxes and wanes
I'd rather burn it...at both ends.
PS: Yes, I really hate the candles that much. They look stupid on a Space Marine, but at least they're in...armour (and somehow magically preventing them from blowing out the second they go...anywhere). A pile of melting/burning candles carried on the shoulders of a masked individual is...one of the most stupid design decisions I've seen in a miniature. Narrowly edging out rolls of parchment longer than a model's leg - looking at you gak stupid Chaplain Terminator.
lord_blackfang wrote: I tole y'all back when N17 started that parody KKK, and parody indians, won't fly in 2017+
Agreed. It doesn't matter what the "I defend my right to offend you" crowd think, cultural appropriation and anything that could be perceived as a KKK mini... yeah, nope. They'll reimagine the Ratskins, if they even do them. Dark Angels already lost the Native American vibe and no-one flipped their lid, so it's entirely possible.
Ratskin don’t have to change much to loose that association and still be recognisable. Redemptionist would have to just go out the window if they don’t want kkk vibes offending people that shouldn’t be offended. Maybe the designers should just do a Q and A on community site were they can talk about there inspirations so as to deride any insinuations of kkk affiliation, but being not of American persuasion my mind never jumped to kkk, I saw a mix of medieval executioner Spanish penitents and gw grim dark ott ascetics blended together.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Honestly I'm not 100% wowed by the Cawdor minis in the first place. They're the one I didn't immediately go out and buy unlike all the others (got 30 of each of the other gangers). That said, having seen how well they work with GSC bitz, I may break for that.
I got a box yesterday, and I have to say that I like them much more now that I've fiddled a bit with them, which is exactly the opposite reaction I had when I bought the Van Saar box (Now that I've assembled them, I have to say that my current opinio of that sprue is "cool, but very limited options and severely flawed". Currently I'd rate it as the worst gang sprue).
I’m in 100% agreement with albertorious - it doesn’t take much work to really change up the cawdorminis and they will likely be the first ones I get a second set of - in comparison I don’t see me jumping for vansaar as they are just to restrictive
Elbows wrote: That leader figure is a great figure...ruined by GW's fething obsession with god damn lit candles...seriously.
It.......waxes and wanes
I'd rather burn it...at both ends.
PS: Yes, I really hate the candles that much. They look stupid on a Space Marine, but at least they're in...armour (and somehow magically preventing them from blowing out the second they go...anywhere). A pile of melting/burning candles carried on the shoulders of a masked individual is...one of the most stupid design decisions I've seen in a miniature. Narrowly edging out rolls of parchment longer than a model's leg - looking at you gak stupid Chaplain Terminator.
What prevents corpus candles going out of action in N17? Plot armour.
John French wrote:
I don’t do as much games design as I used to, and when I get a chance to work on something I love as much as Necromunda with people as talented as the Specialist Games folk, it reminds how much I love it.
In this case I did the Dominion Campaign in Necromunda Gang War 4. Huge thanks to Andy Hoare, and J T-Y for the chance and making it all work.
lord_blackfang wrote: I tole y'all back when N17 started that parody KKK, and parody indians, won't fly in 2017+
Agreed. It doesn't matter what the "I defend my right to offend you" crowd think, cultural appropriation and anything that could be perceived as a KKK mini... yeah, nope. They'll reimagine the Ratskins, if they even do them. Dark Angels already lost the Native American vibe and no-one flipped their lid, so it's entirely possible.
"Cultural appropriation" doesn't exist, it's a nonsense concept that(ironically, considering who typically advocates that it does) depends entirely on a conception of "intellectual property" spun out of the ether over the decades by corporate lobbying. And this isn't about "I defend my right to offend you", it's about whether we allow mob-mentality and personal, subjective perceptions to suppress art and free expression. There is zero intent to offend anyone behind the Redemptionists or the Ratskins, so while people are free to be offended by them, their opinion doesn't grant them some special moral authority.
Also, I'm not sure Dark Angels did "lose" the Native American vibe, the few elements of it that were there still are, it was just a minor element of their pastiche that became comparatively more minor over the years as the already dominant "space monks" aspects were Flanderised to support a bigger miniatures line. Redemptionists and Ratskins, however, are entirely bound up in the concepts and aesthetic that some people are insisting should be abandoned - at which point, why bother doing them at all?
I sincerely hope Forgeworld have the courage to tell the Outrage Merchants where to shove it.
How can we talk about cultural appropiation in the context of a company that makes models based on real world thropes...
You know that GW took dozens of very different real-world cultures... mixed them with dinosaurs without any kind of respect (Tic-Tac-Toc)... and made an awesome faction with it.
You have much more recent examples with the Greek themes of Daugthers of Khaine or Idoneth Deepkin.
Or fething norse Space Wolves.
But I assume americans/english people are more sensible about the native american thing compared with everything else. But you can't have anything without "cultural appropiation" because everything belongs to some culture.
No, but a company that sells its wares internationally should at least be sensitive to iconography/pastiche/imagery that invokes hundreds of years of enslavement, murder, bigotry, and racism that, unfortunately, continues to this day and is still a struggle for many in today's "great" 'ol US of A (intentional or not).
Now, for myself, I know that this is a niche thing (these minis), but its very likely that someone would or could be offended - and this isn't knee-jerk overreaction to every little thing - this is slavery and racism level being offended - such that I wouldn't buy models with pointed hoods and if I did, absolutely would steer far away from white as my color choice.
I also realize that this is particular issue isn't the same for people in the UK, or Australia, or elsewhere in the world, but it is still an issue here. Heavens forbid that a single miniature gets recalled due to feedback. I think we can and should be doing better in 2018 about these things, game or not.
Yodhrin wrote: I sincerely hope Forgeworld have the courage to tell the Outrage Merchants where to shove it.
See now I want that to be a Guilder Gang:
Outrage Merchants.
They (a bit like the Vanus Temple of assassins) literally sell outrage and scandle, using it to fuel riots and strikes that hamper one house whilst benefiting another.
That'd be cool.
Cruentus wrote: I think we can and should be doing better in 2018 about these things, game or not.
Grot 6 wrote: I'm on for 2 boxes of Cawdor. One for me, and one for you easily offended types.
I'M EASILY OFFENDED!!! Here's my address...
Cawdor has always been the Inquisition fanboys. Is it time for the Orks are a caricature of African-Americans again?* There's reason we don't get nice things...MERICA
* this is what happens when one culture makes something and a different culture consumes it oblivious to its actual cultural source(s).
I’m very sensitive to the idea that an image, a piece of text etc. can bring up negative connotations. I’m also very respectful of people’s rights to be offended and to express those feels in public. I also think that there is a balance to be struck between one person’s freedom of artistic expression and another person’s ethical sensibilities. That balance can only be found by honest and open dialogue and will always involve some kind of compromise.
Here’s an interesting point though; my partner is black and her reaction to the miniature with the pointy hood was immediately negative. She actually commented that she thought it was a very positive thing that people are now sensitive to these issues. I do agree with her, to a point. Here’s the thing though; my family lost people in WW2. WW2 is the reason my mother grew up without her father. Yet anyone who wants to collect an army of Nazis I’d totally spoilt for choice when it comes to what they can buy. You could tell me, but WW2 is a long time ago, but I know people who still grieve for the people they lost.
I don’t know what conclusions to draw from that, it just is what it is.
lord_blackfang wrote: I tole y'all back when N17 started that parody KKK, and parody indians, won't fly in 2017+
Agreed. It doesn't matter what the "I defend my right to offend you" crowd think, cultural appropriation and anything that could be perceived as a KKK mini... yeah, nope. They'll reimagine the Ratskins, if they even do them. Dark Angels already lost the Native American vibe and no-one flipped their lid, so it's entirely possible.
"Cultural appropriation" doesn't exist, it's a nonsense concept that(ironically, considering who typically advocates that it does) depends entirely on a conception of "intellectual property" spun out of the ether over the decades by corporate lobbying. And this isn't about "I defend my right to offend you", it's about whether we allow mob-mentality and personal, subjective perceptions to suppress art and free expression. There is zero intent to offend anyone behind the Redemptionists or the Ratskins, so while people are free to be offended by them, their opinion doesn't grant them some special moral authority.
Also, I'm not sure Dark Angels did "lose" the Native American vibe, the few elements of it that were there still are, it was just a minor element of their pastiche that became comparatively more minor over the years as the already dominant "space monks" aspects were Flanderised to support a bigger miniatures line. Redemptionists and Ratskins, however, are entirely bound up in the concepts and aesthetic that some people are insisting should be abandoned - at which point, why bother doing them at all?
I sincerely hope Forgeworld have the courage to tell the Outrage Merchants where to shove it.
...It is also worth noting that you can totally have miniatures with a native american aesthetic without having it be a caricature. Was anyone offended that Avatar Directed By Carl Casian Starring Whitey Mcracker had a very clear native american bent to their alien race? If they did, I've never seen it. Because you're allowed to have a sci fi concept where a culture draws an aesthetic from a particular culture without it being offensive. Sure, if you had Magnus The Red with a big "chief from that one peter pan scene disney doesn't like to admit happened" nose and a dialect where he ends verbs with -um and refers to himself in the third person....yeah, that'd probably be offensive. A culture of mutated humans in an underhive setting with a native american aesthetic? There's nothing inherently wrong with that.
If you get offended at any nonwhite culture being depicted in a scifi setting, you have to be offended at the depiction of Wakanda in Black Panther. And I don't think the "outrage brigade" has started grinding that axe quite yet.
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MonkeyBallistic wrote: I’m very sensitive to the idea that an image, a piece of text etc. can bring up negative connotations. I’m also very respectful of people’s rights to be offended and to express those feels in public. I also think that there is a balance to be struck between one person’s freedom of artistic expression and another person’s ethical sensibilities. That balance can only be found by honest and open dialogue and will always involve some kind of compromise.
Here’s an interesting point though; my partner is black and her reaction to the miniature with the pointy hood was immediately negative. She actually commented that she thought it was a very positive thing that people are now sensitive to these issues. I do agree with her, to a point. Here’s the thing though; my family lost people in WW2. WW2 is the reason my mother grew up without her father. Yet anyone who wants to collect an army of Nazis I’d totally spoilt for choice when it comes to what they can buy. You could tell me, but WW2 is a long time ago, but I know people who still grieve for the people they lost.
I don’t know what conclusions to draw from that, it just is what it is.
I guess the question I'd ask is "where do we determine that a miniature is an *offensive thing*"? You see plenty of miniatures wearing executioners hoods in games, and also plenty of "cultist" miniatures for Cthulhu games or others (see Frostgrave's cultist kit for example) that could just as easily be interpreted as "oh you paint that the right way and it's a klansman".
I can totally see and respect the attitude of "that makes me uncomfortable, I don't want to buy it." Nurgle miniatures make me uncomfortable, I've seen too many nasty diseases and injuries through the course of my research and professional work to want to hold something like that up to my face and paint it. it's where the attitude becomes "that makes me uncomfortable it should not be allowed to be sold" that I start to scratch my head. ESPECIALLY with a miniature where you'd have to paint it a particular way for it to really become a problem. I could take and paint plenty of miniatures in a way that would REALLY make people uncomfortable, but that'd be on me, not on the miniature.
If you took that guy and painted him with a black hood, I guarantee you 99% of the time the reaction to him would be: black hood, axe, executioner.
Cruentus wrote: No, but a company that sells its wares internationally should at least be sensitive to iconography/pastiche/imagery that invokes hundreds of years of enslavement, murder, bigotry, and racism that, unfortunately, continues to this day and is still a struggle for many in today's "great" 'ol US of A (intentional or not).
Now, for myself, I know that this is a niche thing (these minis), but its very likely that someone would or could be offended - and this isn't knee-jerk overreaction to every little thing - this is slavery and racism level being offended - such that I wouldn't buy models with pointed hoods and if I did, absolutely would steer far away from white as my color choice.
I also realize that this is particular issue isn't the same for people in the UK, or Australia, or elsewhere in the world, but it is still an issue here. Heavens forbid that a single miniature gets recalled due to feedback. I think we can and should be doing better in 2018 about these things, game or not.
The problem is that plenty of us don't agree that self-censoring works of art because they might cause offence to some people is "doing better". Depiction is not endorsement. Pastiche is not true depiction. If we were to adopt the position you're suggesting, of modifying or eliminating things because they share imagery with real concepts and groups that are bad or because a portion of a cultural group are upset by them, 40K would cease to exist. Fascism, religious intolerance, prejudice based on species, ableism; 40K is riddled with unpleasant concepts and aesthetic cues from awful organisations and movements, why are these specific instances elevated above all the others?
It wasn't that long ago that the presence of Daemons in GW's products was causing genuine outrage and offence in America but not elsewhere, should GW have eliminated them from the setting to placate that group?
There is only one rational and fair way to approach these kinds of things: People create what they want to create. Other people choose whether or not to consume those creations. Anyone who wishes to feel offence can, that's their right, but it is not their right to impose upon anyone else based on that subjective, individual judgement.
By all means, don't buy the Cawdor Executioner, or a Ratskin gang. By all means, use their existence as the subject of lengthy and detailed blogposts about what you perceive as their flaws and their ostensible relationship to real life things. But to suggest that the fact you dislike them for whatever reason means they should be eliminated, or that artists self-censoring to avoid being maligned is a good thing is grotesque, and worse still, counter productive since all it does in the end is provide cover for the "other side" to indulge in exactly the same behaviour but with far more serious consequences.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: I’m very sensitive to the idea that an image, a piece of text etc. can bring up negative connotations. I’m also very respectful of people’s rights to be offended and to express those feels in public. I also think that there is a balance to be struck between one person’s freedom of artistic expression and another person’s ethical sensibilities. That balance can only be found by honest and open dialogue and will always involve some kind of compromise.
Here’s an interesting point though; my partner is black and her reaction to the miniature with the pointy hood was immediately negative. She actually commented that she thought it was a very positive thing that people are now sensitive to these issues. I do agree with her, to a point. Here’s the thing though; my family lost people in WW2. WW2 is the reason my mother grew up without her father. Yet anyone who wants to collect an army of Nazis I’d totally spoilt for choice when it comes to what they can buy. You could tell me, but WW2 is a long time ago, but I know people who still grieve for the people they lost.
I don’t know what conclusions to draw from that, it just is what it is.
I guess the question I'd ask is "where do we determine that a miniature is an *offensive thing*"? You see plenty of miniatures wearing executioners hoods in games, and also plenty of "cultist" miniatures for Cthulhu games or others (see Frostgrave's cultist kit for example) that could just as easily be interpreted as "oh you paint that the right way and it's a klansman".
I can totally see and respect the attitude of "that makes me uncomfortable, I don't want to buy it." Nurgle miniatures make me uncomfortable, I've seen too many nasty diseases and injuries through the course of my research and professional work to want to hold something like that up to my face and paint it. it's where the attitude becomes "that makes me uncomfortable it should not be allowed to be sold" that I start to scratch my head. ESPECIALLY with a miniature where you'd have to paint it a particular way for it to really become a problem. I could take and paint plenty of miniatures in a way that would REALLY make people uncomfortable, but that'd be on me, not on the miniature.
If you took that guy and painted him with a black hood, I guarantee you 99% of the time the reaction to him would be: black hood, axe, executioner.
Completely this.
Hoods, even pointy ones, have so many other connotations/historical basis outside the Klan that we can't just stop having them represented at all because someone might be offended by it.
I suck at sculpting, so Ive been eyeing up Frostgrave cultists as a means of doing a couple of executioner figures. Very glad to have the option.
Unless someone is specifically making explicit Klan figures, I don't see the issue and even then I kind of don't. You can buy Islamic Jihadi figures and actual Nazi figures for other systems/rulesets.
Also, what's the statute of limitations something being enough to make someone uncomfortable/offended?
I have some Spanish ancestry and you can buy figures that represent the Moors who pillaged and enslaved their way through the country. You can buy figures of Vikings who likely did the same to my British ancestors.
Hell, the Aztecs brutalised and enslaved most of the people's around them, should Lizardmen not be allowed to have an Aztec-inspired aesthetic for fear of offending someone?
There's been so much brutality and ill treatment meted out by human beings to each other at all points in time, I'm not sure specific examples deserve to be singled out unless the product utilising a group/event is gratuitous in it's representation. Even then, I'm inclined to let the market decide in all but the most extreme cases.
Yodhrin wrote: The problem is that plenty of us don't agree that self-censoring works of art because they might cause offence to some people is "doing better".
That's nice and all, but GW is a publicly traded company that is answerable to its shareholders. It wouldn't be the first company to put something out and then realize it may not be interpreted the way intended. Right now they may be trying to figure out what they do, be it release it, release it with a disclaimer or shelf it. This isn't the free-wheeling '80s where you can have Nazi orks anymore, this is a multimillion dollar company that has concerns that can't let one model ruin.
I know what the model is, but I can understand why they got gun-shy when it was interpreted by today's consumer. I'm pretty sure rat skins will not be released looking like dime store injuns.
Yodhrin wrote: The problem is that plenty of us don't agree that self-censoring works of art because they might cause offence to some people is "doing better".
That's nice and all, but GW is a publicly traded company that is answerable to its shareholders. It wouldn't be the first company to put something out and then realize it may not be interpreted the way intended. Right now they may be trying to figure out what they do, be it release it, release it with a disclaimer or shelf it. This isn't the free-wheeling '80s where you can have Nazi orks anymore, this is a multimillion dollar company that has concerns that can't let one model ruin.
I know what the model is, but I can understand why they got gun-shy when it was interpreted by today's consumer. I'm pretty sure rat skins will not be released looking like dime store injuns.
Crimson wrote: I think combining the pointy hoods with the nooses is perhaps a step too far.
Ha, I'll be honest, when I went and gave the figure another look I saw the nooses and said "oh, ok, yeah, people are definitely reading into this one, that is CLEARLY an executioner.
First, the hood isn't all that pointy, and it doesn't have a crease in the center, and it has an uncovered mouth (obscured by the camera angle) and studs in it. Also, you can see that he's not wearing a robe, he's wearing regular clothing with an apron.
Nooses by themselves could have indicated the Klan (particularly if the model were, for example, holding a noose as his weapon) but a noose combined with an axe, that's an executioner.
Yodhrin wrote: The problem is that plenty of us don't agree that self-censoring works of art because they might cause offence to some people is "doing better".
That's nice and all, but GW is a publicly traded company that is answerable to its shareholders. It wouldn't be the first company to put something out and then realize it may not be interpreted the way intended. Right now they may be trying to figure out what they do, be it release it, release it with a disclaimer or shelf it. This isn't the free-wheeling '80s where you can have Nazi orks anymore, this is a multimillion dollar company that has concerns that can't let one model ruin.
I know what the model is, but I can understand why they got gun-shy when it was interpreted by today's consumer. I'm pretty sure rat skins will not be released looking like dime store injuns.
I daresay the majority of consumers don't see anything wrong, unfortunately social media allows minority views of any kind to make a dispproportionate amount of noise. A lot GWs market is outside the US and will be far less likely to make any unsavoury associations with the KKK.
Yodhrin wrote: The problem is that plenty of us don't agree that self-censoring works of art because they might cause offence to some people is "doing better".
That's nice and all, but GW is a publicly traded company that is answerable to its shareholders. It wouldn't be the first company to put something out and then realize it may not be interpreted the way intended. Right now they may be trying to figure out what they do, be it release it, release it with a disclaimer or shelf it. This isn't the free-wheeling '80s where you can have Nazi orks anymore, this is a multimillion dollar company that has concerns that can't let one model ruin.
I know what the model is, but I can understand why they got gun-shy when it was interpreted by today's consumer. I'm pretty sure rat skins will not be released looking like dime store injuns.
But that's what's utterly ridiculous about this, if indeed it is the reason why the model went walkabout - it's not "today's consumer", it's a fractional minority of people who's level of strident outrage is directly inversely proportional to their actual influence or purchasing power. Only by capitulating to them could GW or their shareholders ever be harmed by their antics, because most people - of any generation - don't give a gak either way, and many of the remainder actively disagree. And if GW's goal is to protect their broader interests, again, we come back to the other part of the question - where does it end? Vast, vast portions of GW's IPs are either demonstrably inspired by offensive things, could plausibly be interpreted as being inspired by offensive things, could be read as being inspired by offensive things by someone with a cynical mindset, or meet the definition of "cultural appropriation" - if they were to give in over this(again, stressing that we don't actually know for sure this stuff is why the pics got pulled), the likely outcome is not that the outrage machine will be placated, the likely outcome is they'll move on to the next thing and then the one after that. Eventually GW would either have to draw a line in the sand or else essentially discard their entire IPs, so they might as well draw it now and tell these folk politely but firmly to either buy or not, but if not to jog right on.
Any "controversy" that would stir up would require a lot less effort for GW to deal with than the amount they've been expending trying to suppress and manage the anger over the recent FW price changes.
Yodhrin wrote: The problem is that plenty of us don't agree that self-censoring works of art because they might cause offence to some people is "doing better".
That's nice and all, but GW is a publicly traded company that is answerable to its shareholders. It wouldn't be the first company to put something out and then realize it may not be interpreted the way intended. Right now they may be trying to figure out what they do, be it release it, release it with a disclaimer or shelf it. This isn't the free-wheeling '80s where you can have Nazi orks anymore, this is a multimillion dollar company that has concerns that can't let one model ruin.
I know what the model is, but I can understand why they got gun-shy when it was interpreted by today's consumer. I'm pretty sure rat skins will not be released looking like dime store injuns.
But that's what's utterly ridiculous about this, if indeed it is the reason why the model went walkabout - it's not "today's consumer", it's a fractional minority of people who's level of strident outrage is directly inversely proportional to their actual influence or purchasing power. Only by capitulating to them could GW or their shareholders ever be harmed by their antics, because most people - of any generation - don't give a gak either way, and many of the remainder actively disagree. And if GW's goal is to protect their broader interests, again, we come back to the other part of the question - where does it end? Vast, vast portions of GW's IPs are either demonstrably inspired by offensive things, could plausibly be interpreted as being inspired by offensive things, could be read as being inspired by offensive things by someone with a cynical mindset, or meet the definition of "cultural appropriation" - if they were to give in over this(again, stressing that we don't actually know for sure this stuff is why the pics got pulled), the likely outcome is not that the outrage machine will be placated, the likely outcome is they'll move on to the next thing and then the one after that. Eventually GW would either have to draw a line in the sand or else essentially discard their entire IPs, so they might as well draw it now and tell these folk politely but firmly to either buy or not, but if not to jog right on.
Any "controversy" that would stir up would require a lot less effort for GW to deal with than the amount they've been expending trying to suppress and manage the anger over the recent FW price changes.
I have a shiny nickel that says by next week they pull the same thing they did with the GSC aberrants where they handed this model back to the paint studio and said "gimme one with a BLACK hood please."
All the scenarios in Gang War 1 have been reduced to 3d only in the new Leader's accessories pack. Rescue Mission can for example no longer be played on Zone Mortalis. All the scenarios have changed (sometimes random, sometimes improvements). But why did they remove this flexibility?
The quick reference sheets is more than just a quick reference. It's a rules update (stealth FAQ/Errata), for the first time we have things like Toxin not ignoring armour save on paper and updates to how blast weapons work. It also include random (and nonsensical) rule changes like how sentries work.
So, what's coming next after Delaque? Presumably a N17 Outlander expansion? Or a book about one of the other hives? Plastic Enforcers should be among the next from what was said at the Fests.
I think a lot of people who haven't been paying attention will be disappointed. They're shouting for "Enforcers" when what I think they mean is "Adeptus Arbites models with Necromunda rules". That's not happening. We'll get some Palatine Hive Enforcers, but what they'll look like, and how they'll be equipped, is anyone's guess. Arbites don't concern themselves with the Underhive - they're more concerned with making sure the planetary governor isn't evading his taxes - and the idea that the Necromunda Enforcers ape the uniforms and equipment of the Arbites looks like something that's going away. I think that was only an excuse because the models they sculpted weren't needed for 40k (a bit like the Ash Waste sniper and the Eldar Farseer).
Warhams-77 wrote: So, what's coming next after Delaque? Presumably a N17 Outlander expansion? Or a book about one of the other hives? Plastic Enforcers should be among the next from what was said at the Fests.
Probably the old Outlander Gangs. Cover what peeps may have in their cupboards first seems a smart move.
Warhams-77 wrote: So, what's coming next after Delaque? Presumably a N17 Outlander expansion? Or a book about one of the other hives? Plastic Enforcers should be among the next from what was said at the Fests.
Probably the old Outlander Gangs. Cover what peeps may have in their cupboards first seems a smart move.
Dunno like, they were showing off those Guilder concepts pretty early, we might end up getting those prior to/interspersed with the classic Outlanders.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I think a lot of people who haven't been paying attention will be disappointed. They're shouting for "Enforcers" when what I think they mean is "Adeptus Arbites models with Necromunda rules". That's not happening. We'll get some Palatine Hive Enforcers, but what they'll look like, and how they'll be equipped, is anyone's guess. Arbites don't concern themselves with the Underhive - they're more concerned with making sure the planetary governor isn't evading his taxes - and the idea that the Necromunda Enforcers ape the uniforms and equipment of the Arbites looks like something that's going away. I think that was only an excuse because the models they sculpted weren't needed for 40k (a bit like the Ash Waste sniper and the Eldar Farseer).
I don't know about the disappointment part. So far the gangs have been visually close to the original gang concepts. The Enforcers were based closely on the Adeptus Arbites, from there own fluff, and had miniatures that looked close to the Arbites line. I think that the FW k9 handler mini could be along the lines of what they come up with.
AndrewGPaul wrote: I think a lot of people who haven't been paying attention will be disappointed. They're shouting for "Enforcers" when what I think they mean is "Adeptus Arbites models with Necromunda rules". That's not happening. We'll get some Palatine Hive Enforcers, but what they'll look like, and how they'll be equipped, is anyone's guess. Arbites don't concern themselves with the Underhive - they're more concerned with making sure the planetary governor isn't evading his taxes - and the idea that the Necromunda Enforcers ape the uniforms and equipment of the Arbites looks like something that's going away. I think that was only an excuse because the models they sculpted weren't needed for 40k (a bit like the Ash Waste sniper and the Eldar Farseer).
I don't know about the disappointment part. So far the gangs have been visually close to the original gang concepts. The Enforcers were based closely on the Adeptus Arbites, from there own fluff, and had miniatures that looked close to the Arbites line. I think that the FW k9 handler mini could be along the lines of what they come up with.
I'm fairly sure they've stated explicitly that they won't look like Arbites. What they will look like we don't know.
I still kind of hope we don’t see Enforcers or Arbite equivalents. The background is clear that barring the odd manhunt for Uphive Runners, the Underhive is basically left to the Gangs to Police - it’s just not important enough to the grand scheme of things.
Now, Guilders having some Muscle Boys on the payroll? That appeals more to me. Even some formal training would go a long way, and the better funding could easily translate to superior ammo rolls etc.
I'd rather see the enforcers be something unique anyways, instead of a gothic judge dredd ripoff. So I don't have any interest in arbites. But I think if they fit in oddball stuff like genestealers and chaos cults, there is enough there to justify bringing the enforcers into the game.
There is lot of potential with the guilders, but if they are resin only I can tell you i'm gonna pass before even seeing them.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Plus I don't think those Guilder gangs will be plastic releases.
I'm pretty sure you're right, but stranger things have happened. An all resin gang* though will be DOA since it will be too costly for most. I think the gang needs to move beyond the original roots and look back to Confrontation as well as be free to explore other parts of the Hive. Nostalgia can only take you so far.
So much more interesting that Spyrers (other opinions there are of course available)
To be quite honest I'd love to see both of those in the new style. Spryers could be three narratively posed snap fit models for all I care. Brats could be a great source for other 40K civvies.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I still kind of hope we don’t see Enforcers or Arbite equivalents. The background is clear that barring the odd manhunt for Uphive Runners, the Underhive is basically left to the Gangs to Police - it’s just not important enough to the grand scheme of things.
Now, Guilders having some Muscle Boys on the payroll? That appeals more to me. Even some formal training would go a long way, and the better funding could easily translate to superior ammo rolls etc.
Thing is, N17 isn't exclusively set in the Underhive any more, and while the Governor's personal lackeys probably don't care about a chain of murders in Dregton-On-Sump, they might start meddling in things if you had unsanctioned gang warfare going on in the manufactory sectors, or cultists rousing the rabble etc. I hope if we do get them they play really differently to the existing gangs.
Regarding Brats and Spyrers - they could always merge them. Make the gang Brats and have the Spyrer suits as late-campaign wargear, gives those playing them some interesting choices for progression, and makes the rigs easier to balance since you don't have to account for them gaking all over some poor newbie gang.
Also, what's the statute of limitations something being enough to make someone uncomfortable/offended?
I have some Spanish ancestry and you can buy figures that represent the Moors who pillaged and enslaved their way through the country. You can buy figures of Vikings who likely did the same to my British ancestors.
Hell, the Aztecs brutalised and enslaved most of the people's around them, should Lizardmen not be allowed to have an Aztec-inspired aesthetic for fear of offending someone?
Consider the present day position of the disadvantaged group and the current balance of power/prosperity between the perpetrating and the infringed-upon group.
Your personal example seems comically ridiculous/inadequate because it sounds as though you've never identified as Spanish. There's no living individual with direct ties to a Spaniard who was injured by a Moor.
I hope they tease Delaque tonight at nova, but they won't post anything from the seminar on the community site until it's over. Anyone know about what time that would be?
Thargrim wrote: I hope they tease Delaque tonight at nova, but they won't post anything from the seminar on the community site until it's over. Anyone know about what time that would be?
Apparently it is only just starting, which is frustrating cos I need to go to bed!
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lord_blackfang wrote: Gangs that don't play by everyone else's rules are bad mmmkay.
Not intrinsically so, so long as they are balanced over the course of the campaign. I think a mechanism where the Enforcers have to earn creds through competing for budgets (success = more funding) and extorting creds from captured gangers/areas under their "protection" could make them play very similar to standard gangs if necessary though. Make them totally bent coppers and they function basically as gangs.
Also, what's the statute of limitations something being enough to make someone uncomfortable/offended?
I have some Spanish ancestry and you can buy figures that represent the Moors who pillaged and enslaved their way through the country. You can buy figures of Vikings who likely did the same to my British ancestors.
Hell, the Aztecs brutalised and enslaved most of the people's around them, should Lizardmen not be allowed to have an Aztec-inspired aesthetic for fear of offending someone?
Consider the present day position of the disadvantaged group and the current balance of power/prosperity between the perpetrating and the infringed-upon group.
But that's the point of contention, isn't it. Not all of us agree in categorising everyone by crude "groups", or that membership of such a group gives your offense greater justification than anyone else's regarding anything else.
I'm perpetually irritated by the typical presentation in the media of people with autism spectrum disorders as being either amoral hyper-competent renaissance-savants who just act a bit wooden in social situations or head-smacking shouty types with a mental age of five, but that doesn't mean because I happen to have an ASD that I should be able to call for that crappy Ben Affleck movie about an aspie assassin or whatever guff it was to be banned and be taken seriously.
We agreed as a society that people or groups doing specific, unequivocally bigoted things towards other people was wrong and could be punished, and there are plenty of arguments to be had about whether that principle has been sufficiently enforced in practice(spoiler: it hasn't, what a shock eh), but everything beyond that is a matter for individuals to deal with themselves. Anyone is perfectly free to be offended by anything, but that doesn't give any of us license to control other people's perfectly legal behaviours and artistic expressions based on comparing some ridiculous, nebulous, subjective "identity rank".
Also, what's the statute of limitations something being enough to make someone uncomfortable/offended?
I have some Spanish ancestry and you can buy figures that represent the Moors who pillaged and enslaved their way through the country. You can buy figures of Vikings who likely did the same to my British ancestors.
Hell, the Aztecs brutalised and enslaved most of the people's around them, should Lizardmen not be allowed to have an Aztec-inspired aesthetic for fear of offending someone?
Consider the present day position of the disadvantaged group and the current balance of power/prosperity between the perpetrating and the infringed-upon group.
But that's the point of contention, isn't it. Not all of us agree in categorising everyone by crude "groups", or that membership of such a group gives your offense greater justification than anyone else's regarding anything else.
I'm perpetually irritated by the typical presentation in the media of people with autism spectrum disorders as being either amoral hyper-competent renaissance-savants who just act a bit wooden in social situations or head-smacking shouty types with a mental age of five, but that doesn't mean because I happen to have an ASD that I should be able to call for that crappy Ben Affleck movie about an aspie assassin or whatever guff it was to be banned and be taken seriously.
We agreed as a society that people or groups doing specific, unequivocally bigoted things towards other people was wrong and could be punished, and there are plenty of arguments to be had about whether that principle has been sufficiently enforced in practice(spoiler: it hasn't, what a shock eh), but everything beyond that is a matter for individuals to deal with themselves. Anyone is perfectly free to be offended by anything, but that doesn't give any of us license to control other people's perfectly legal behaviours and artistic expressions based on comparing some ridiculous, nebulous, subjective "identity rank".
You've returned several times to an idea of material being "controlled" or "banned" that I don't take seriously.
Did you see some Twitterfolk calling for the KKKawdor Guy molds to be physically liberated by PC commandos? For legal sanctions against Forgeworld for daring to do such a thing? Or are you just... exaggerating?
The only thing "controlling" behaviour here is the desire to avoid public shaming and controversy. And anyone producing a piece of material that they implicitly accept carries controversial, shame-worthy qualities should probably begin by examining their notions of propriety before martyring themselves on the altar of lost rights.
Everything is nebulous and subjective. You can't prove that I'm a sapient agent and you're not talking to a subroutine of the Great Universal Simulation. People who demand legalistic, quantified hierarchies of "offendedness" don't get it. No one is going to do insult math for you. If you care about other people, you'll do it yourself. We live together in a society, things change over time, it's scary and uncomfortable not to have absolute knowledge, but that's how it is.
Also, what's the statute of limitations something being enough to make someone uncomfortable/offended?
I have some Spanish ancestry and you can buy figures that represent the Moors who pillaged and enslaved their way through the country. You can buy figures of Vikings who likely did the same to my British ancestors.
Hell, the Aztecs brutalised and enslaved most of the people's around them, should Lizardmen not be allowed to have an Aztec-inspired aesthetic for fear of offending someone?
Consider the present day position of the disadvantaged group and the current balance of power/prosperity between the perpetrating and the infringed-upon group.
But that's the point of contention, isn't it. Not all of us agree in categorising everyone by crude "groups", or that membership of such a group gives your offense greater justification than anyone else's regarding anything else.
I'm perpetually irritated by the typical presentation in the media of people with autism spectrum disorders as being either amoral hyper-competent renaissance-savants who just act a bit wooden in social situations or head-smacking shouty types with a mental age of five, but that doesn't mean because I happen to have an ASD that I should be able to call for that crappy Ben Affleck movie about an aspie assassin or whatever guff it was to be banned and be taken seriously.
We agreed as a society that people or groups doing specific, unequivocally bigoted things towards other people was wrong and could be punished, and there are plenty of arguments to be had about whether that principle has been sufficiently enforced in practice(spoiler: it hasn't, what a shock eh), but everything beyond that is a matter for individuals to deal with themselves. Anyone is perfectly free to be offended by anything, but that doesn't give any of us license to control other people's perfectly legal behaviours and artistic expressions based on comparing some ridiculous, nebulous, subjective "identity rank".
You've returned several times to an idea of material being "controlled" or "banned" that I don't take seriously.
Did you see some Twitterfolk calling for the KKKawdor Guy molds to be physically liberated by PC commandos? For legal sanctions against Forgeworld for daring to do such a thing? Or are you just... exaggerating?
I've put multiple disclaimers in my posts pointing out that we don't actually know why the image was pulled and the KKK thing is just rumour/speculation. Your comments, and mine in reply, are more general and so don't require qualification or explicit links to this specific instance, but of course you know that fine-well and are just engaging in the time honoured practice of ascribing excessive emotion to people who disagree with you to try and cast them as unreasonable.
The only thing "controlling" behaviour here is the desire to avoid public shaming and controversy. And anyone producing a piece of material that they implicitly accept carries controversial, shame-worthy qualities should probably begin by examining their notions of propriety before martyring themselves on the altar of lost rights.
But that's exactly the point - not everyone agrees anything about this instance, or indeed many other instances, qualify as "shame-worthy", and the fact that a minority of neopuritan outrage merchants have appointed themselves as arbiters of what is an isn't acceptable and are willing to try and use public shaming and controversy(usually with a stonking heap of dishonest framing and context-elimination to make the object of their offence seem far worse than it actually is to punters who otherwise wouldn't care) is exactly the problem.
Everything is nebulous and subjective. You can't prove that I'm a sapient agent and you're not talking to a subroutine of the Great Universal Simulation. People who demand legalistic, quantified hierarchies of "offendedness" don't get it. No one is going to do insult math for you. If you care about other people, you'll do it yourself. We live together in a society, things change over time, it's scary and uncomfortable not to have absolute knowledge, but that's how it is.
What on earth does this nonsense have to do with anything? The only ones demanding hierarchies of anything here are the people advocating your position, mine has only one solitary distinction: legal/not legal. Everything else is utterly dependent on context and intent, and should never prompt anything more than debate and discussion. Not shaming. Not demands that other people censor themselves.
I mean have you actually reasoned out your logic here? Even for a moment? Child soldiers. Genetic experimentation without consent. Religious repression. Ableism. Totalitarian neofeudalism. If GW were to "do it themselves" 40K would cease to exist because the entire thing is a construct of controversial, even objectionable things. What reasonable people are capable of grasping is that it is a fiction, that depicting such things does not equate to endorsing them, and that just because some people can choose to interpret something in one way does not make their interpretation and the resulting outrage absolute or justified.
I mean have you actually reasoned out your logic here? Even for a moment? Child soldiers. Genetic experimentation without consent. Religious repression. Ableism. Totalitarian neofeudalism. If GW were to "do it themselves" 40K would cease to exist because the entire thing is a construct of controversial, even objectionable things. What reasonable people are capable of grasping is that it is a fiction, that depicting such things does not equate to endorsing them, and that just because some people can choose to interpret something in one way does not make their interpretation and the resulting outrage absolute or justified.
LOL, I have no idea how you got there, but now you're arguing my position for me.
You: All that matters is if it's legal, otherwise shut up. Follow that logic --> Totalitarian state ABC is legal, therefore its citizens can shut up?
Me: Culture advances, and our judgements about acceptable behaviour changes.
The line about depiction =/= endorsement has no bearing. People who are offended are offended by the choice to casually depict something with traumatic overtones (and the willingness to employ those motifs for gain, without attempting to understand or respect them), not by the perception that the depiction is an endorsement.
You're also being extremely generous by categorizing this example as "art." Art is usually understood to be expressive. An object like the Forgeworld model is aesthetically-informed merchandise. Which is why appropriation is so ugly -- it usually involves a member of an advantaged group lifting a culturally/historically important image from a disadvantaged group and bending it towards their own increase.
Altruizine wrote: Consider the present day position of the disadvantaged group and the current balance of power/prosperity between the perpetrating and the infringed-upon group.
No. This is fiction. Cawdor/Redemptionists aren't real. I don't have to consider anyone's real-world "live in" point of view on something that isn't real.
You're also being extremely generous by categorizing this example as "art." Art is usually understood to be expressive. An object like the Forgeworld model is aesthetically-informed merchandise.
Let me define art for you: Any model GW, FW or anyone else has ever made is art.
IdPol had no place In Necromunda, much less 40k as a whole.
Now, as this is actually somewhat related and we're seemingly having a civil discussion, I think the Ratskins will be done with class. Seeing the design aesthetic so far, matched with Blanche's old work, I have faith that they won't shy away from a little kitsch but keep the look strong and more true to it's stylistic roots.
P.S. Lets seriously try and keep the politics out of this, I don't want to have to be a representative for EVERY American Indian (yes, by blood, geez) because I like Ratskins, ok?
Regarding Brats and Spyrers - they could always merge them. Make the gang Brats and have the Spyrer suits as late-campaign wargear, gives those playing them some interesting choices for progression, and makes the rigs easier to balance since you don't have to account for them gaking all over some poor newbie gang.
Do like that concept. Make the suits VERY expensive....
No world in the Imperium is safe from the horrors of Chaos – not even Terra itself. Necromunda is no exception. Under cover of the constant turf wars and battle for supremacy, small and scattered cults dedicated to the worship of the Ruinous Powers thrive. The demagogues who lead these cults draw the ruined and dispossessed to their service – those with nothing but a lust for power and the willingness to sell their souls to achieve it. These Chaos Cults take part in the power struggles of the underhive like any other gang… though woe betide any rival Ganger captured by them, for their fate will be grisly indeed as they are offered up to the Dark Gods…
A few months ago, White Dwarf published rules for using Chaos Cult Gangs in your games of Necromunda – and now we’re bringing you those rules absolutely free! They contain everything you need to start your own band of warp-worshipping malcontents, including gang, skills and equipment lists, six Wyrd powers, rules for using a Chaos Cult in campaigns, and a post-battle action that allows you to conduct a Dark Ritual and imbue one of your fighters with unholy power. There are even rules for using a Chaos Spawn… because if your Dark Ritual goes wrong you might find yourself down one fighter and up one terrifying lump of flesh and tentacles.
You can get started building a Chaos Cult with the Warhammer 40,000 Chaos Cultists set, which contains five models armed with a range of weapons, perfect for representing Helot Cultists. Alternatively (or additionally), you could use a variety of models from the Necromunda gang sets, representing exiles from the various houses who have banded together under a charismatic Cult Demagogue.
However you want to build your Chaos Cult, you can download the PDF right here and plan your gang – and your conquest of the underhive in the name of the Dark Gods!
The Cult Witch now uses the Wyrd rules, there's more weapons (mostly from the Cawdor sprue) on the Cult Equipment List and they can get a Familiar (like a Caryatid or genestealer familiar, but without the penalty to Reputation that a Caryatid gives if it dies or leaves). Same sort of changes they made to the 'stealer cult rules.
Without giving the profile, what's the broad differences between an autogun and a reclaimed autogun? I've lent my books to someone and I only have GW4 at the moment.
The model is drawing a third from a holster!
It is only defined for Escher and Goliath, i.e. no other gangs, no juves, very few skills and weapons, different costs,stats, skills, senarios. Aka the demo version.
