I gotta say, I'm surprised by the Van Saar weapon packs. I thought there would be quite a lot more gun barrels to fit with the weapon back halves the regular sprue has. Seems weird to make a modular weapon system and then not use that system for the expansion pieces.
Either way, they look cool.
Oh, and I count at least 4 Hand Flamers between the two sets. Unacceptable. Until every man, woman, child, and strange mutlilimbed mutant can have a Hand Flamer in every hand, it just won't be right!
Nothing spectacular, but all gangs so far have delievered, IMO, so I'll wait and see. Cawdor is my #1 hope for good cultists and witch hunters for both 40k and Fantasy, though, so I really hope they deliver.
I've peed and moaned about some of this stuff and in the beginning wasn't very happy with the execution of this thing, but, hot damn is it strange to eat crow over GW for a change...
1. The figures are amazing. I've never seen the quality of these sculpts in any other company, and as a long time Necromunda player, I find these an amazing addition to my older models as an excellent upgrade.
2. There is a selection for everyone. I've shown the figures to my local shop and have a low rumble of interest in them, especially when I tell them that they only need a sprue and a handful of any model they want, and we will discuss how they can fit in the game with the established stuff. (Mostly I'm going with the mix of old and new, because we've found a couple of issues with some of the new rules for the game that we didn't feel like using to include keeping what you catch, eating the captured ganger, and taking the captured gangers stuff. Of course this is starting to have a little of an issue with players losing their guy, but a gangers gotta eat...
3. The figures are a little larger, but I like that you can actually work with them, and the quality of the model takes to paint like a fish to water. We were correct, and the figures we originally saw had a crap paint job, and these models take to both Shading, and the new paints great. Even those kids that don't paint very well have a seat at the table, there are like 3-10 figures to begin with, A team can just jump in.
All in all, there is plenty of choice, and the game is still excellent, especially when you add in the fact that you can use any figures you want.
apparently they are working on concept that if you are pinned behind cover your armour improves by 2, as a counter to spamming 2+ accuracy plasma canon shots
The Cawdor art is pretty much spot on, definitely going to get a couple kits of them if they look like that. Very grimy/gritty religous hobos with cobbled together weapons. They really bring out the slum type vibe that I figured would be common in the underhive. My only dissapointment is that we have to keep waiting to see the kit...but at least they showed us something.
Thargrim wrote: The Cawdor art is pretty much spot on, definitely going to get a couple kits of them if they look like that. Very grimy/gritty religous hobos with cobbled together weapons. They really bring out the slum type vibe that I figured would be common in the underhive. My only dissapointment is that we have to keep waiting to see the kit...but at least they showed us something.
There is also tomorrow? It wouldn't be the first time thay have shown photos/concepts on day one, then wheeled out the actual models on day two. I still have some hope we can see the actually model designs yet.
Thargrim wrote: The Cawdor art is pretty much spot on, definitely going to get a couple kits of them if they look like that. Very grimy/gritty religous hobos with cobbled together weapons. They really bring out the slum type vibe that I figured would be common in the underhive. My only dissapointment is that we have to keep waiting to see the kit...but at least they showed us something.
There is also tomorrow? It wouldn't be the first time thay have shown photos/concepts on day one, then wheeled out the actual models on day two. I still have some hope we can see the actually model designs yet.
Well on the community site "We’re looking forward to checking these guys out in full later down the line…"
Whatever that means, they could be playing with us and show off the kit tomorrow. But I think theres a UK games expo in early june and they might show up there. I'm okay with them showing us the kit unpainted as well.
Thargrim wrote: The Cawdor art is pretty much spot on, definitely going to get a couple kits of them if they look like that. Very grimy/gritty religous hobos with cobbled together weapons. They really bring out the slum type vibe that I figured would be common in the underhive. My only dissapointment is that we have to keep waiting to see the kit...but at least they showed us something.
There is also tomorrow? It wouldn't be the first time thay have shown photos/concepts on day one, then wheeled out the actual models on day two. I still have some hope we can see the actually model designs yet.
Well on the community site "We’re looking forward to checking these guys out in full later down the line…"
Whatever that means, they could be playing with us and show off the kit tomorrow. But I think theres a UK games expo in early june and they might show up there. I'm okay with them showing us the kit unpainted as well.
That is true, although I am a bit surprised they aren't ready to show them now, seeing as we saw both the Orlock and Van Saar kits quite some time in advance of them going on sale. We got both the last two mid quarter, so I suppose Cawdor could be late July/early August, and an early June model preview would work with that.
The Phazer wrote:
Chopstick wrote: Don't know why they made The Deserter legs twist like he need to pee badly.
It's an Overwatch Junkrat homage isn't it?
The rat/dog things aren't that bad I think - the standing one is definitely worse though. The croc is great.
I was kind of hoping for some robed female cultists from the Cawdor minis, so I hope we get some wearing a bit more cult-y outfits.
I think (and hope) they will be putting a divide between Cawdor and Redemptionists. They are separate entities in the Underhive after all, even if Cawdor members are most likely to become Redemptionists. I should think the Cawdor gangers will probably look more like the concept art- poor, badly equipped but pious and numerous gangers, and any future Redemptionist release would be the typical robed cultists.
My first thoguht was that is was an Underhive GSC model.
I suppose that isn't a bad thing- Genestealers should look like they have infected the locals, rather than being mysteriously different in appearence to everybody else.
Yeah, but they are millions of worlds in the imperium. For sure gc cults would look like the "regular" humans from the planet they are on. But the kits we have for gsc is based on a mining colony getting infected, there is no need to make a necro gang so similar to them.
Maybe the similarities wont be as striking once we see the minis and the cawdor are a bit more unique
Automatically Appended Next Post: Agreed with you that hopefully the robed look is reserved strictly for redemptionist
streetsamurai wrote: Yeah, but they are millions of worlds in the imperium. For sure gc cults would look like the "regular" humans from the planet they are on. But the kits we have for gsc is based on a mining colony getting infected, there is no need to make a necro gang so similar to them.
Maybe the similarities wont be as striking once we see the minis and the cawdor are a bit more unique
Automatically Appended Next Post: Agreed with you that hopefully the robed look is reserved strictly for redemptionist
True, although those same mining-equipped Cultists are now known to be on Necromunda, which suggests that pattern of mining hazard suit exists on Necromunda, along with that aesthetic.
AduroT wrote: I like the new arms instead of just more modular weapon barrels. Give more variety of poses. I also like the upside down Shield on the one guy.
That would be nice if FW didn't just digitally copy paste different guns to the same arms that come on the plastic sprue, with few exceptions.
I dig the new guns and the options. I will have to do a bit less chopping on the sprues to get some of what I want when this comes out, and I need me some sweet hand flamers. And regular flamers.
What was about the turnaround from 'teaser to store' with the Escher and Goliath guns?
AduroT wrote: I like the new arms instead of just more modular weapon barrels. Give more variety of poses. I also like the upside down Shield on the one guy.
That would be nice if FW didn't just digitally copy paste different guns to the same arms that come on the plastic sprue, with few exceptions.
The "modular" weapons on the Van Saar sprues are bad, anyway.
They don't offer a single advantage over fully-modeled weapons (except for using up less material and less sprue space).
That comes at the cost of reduced poseability and the finicky nature of gluing the piece. If you're a perfectionist it's pretty difficult to get the gun barrels joined up with the stocks in perfect alignment.
And that's with the tackiness of plastic glue taken into account. It would be absolute hell getting resin pieces joined to the plastic stock bits. Every gun would come out slanted or crooked.
Grot 6 wrote: Does Tennessee sell Forgeworld stuff at that GW location? I'm interested in getting the add ons, but can't get them from Forgeworld.
Not that I recall. In fact, that address is pretty shady, too- so don't go to their store alone. It's been a while, but I don't think they relocated since I went in 2015.
AduroT wrote: I like the new arms instead of just more modular weapon barrels. Give more variety of poses. I also like the upside down Shield on the one guy.
That would be nice if FW didn't just digitally copy paste different guns to the same arms that come on the plastic sprue, with few exceptions.
The "modular" weapons on the Van Saar sprues are bad, anyway.
They don't offer a single advantage over fully-modeled weapons (except for using up less material and less sprue space).
That comes at the cost of reduced poseability and the finicky nature of gluing the piece. If you're a perfectionist it's pretty difficult to get the gun barrels joined up with the stocks in perfect alignment.
And that's with the tackiness of plastic glue taken into account. It would be absolute hell getting resin pieces joined to the plastic stock bits. Every gun would come out slanted or crooked.
What? I had no problems lining my barrels up just fine using regular old super glue. My only real complaint is the two two-handing the gun arm sets didn’t intermingle. That and no handless stocks/grips for holstered Weapons.
AduroT wrote: I like the new arms instead of just more modular weapon barrels. Give more variety of poses. I also like the upside down Shield on the one guy.
That would be nice if FW didn't just digitally copy paste different guns to the same arms that come on the plastic sprue, with few exceptions.
The "modular" weapons on the Van Saar sprues are bad, anyway.
They don't offer a single advantage over fully-modeled weapons (except for using up less material and less sprue space).
That comes at the cost of reduced poseability and the finicky nature of gluing the piece. If you're a perfectionist it's pretty difficult to get the gun barrels joined up with the stocks in perfect alignment.
And that's with the tackiness of plastic glue taken into account. It would be absolute hell getting resin pieces joined to the plastic stock bits. Every gun would come out slanted or crooked.
What? I had no problems lining my barrels up just fine using regular old super glue. My only real complaint is the two two-handing the gun arm sets didn’t intermingle. That and no handless stocks/grips for holstered Weapons.
I can only surmise that we have different definitions of "perfect alignment."
I've assembled two boxes and every one of the modular gun parts (long guns only; I haven't build a pistoleer yet) lines up with a slight leftward slant (looking down) if a locking fit with maximum surface contact is attempted (ie. you push the parts together as far and as tightly as they'll go). It's also very easy to rotate them off kilter.
Ive also found so far the Necromunda kits have been quite easy to get some more interesting poses out of with some minor conversion work, not pictured but the forward and backward running escher can also easily be converted up.
Flinty wrote: Pshaw... you're only as limited as your imagination
The standard poses are fine for mooks, but they aren't that hard to turn into something a bit different. Fiddly, definitely, but doable.
I love this as a "proof of concept" but hate the pose (not to mention the weapon loadout).
It's a little misleading, though. That's extremely close to the default pose for that figure. You can stick any model on a piece of wire and present a different look... it doesn't really count as a new POSE though.
Flinty wrote: Pshaw... you're only as limited as your imagination
The standard poses are fine for mooks, but they aren't that hard to turn into something a bit different. Fiddly, definitely, but doable.
I love this as a "proof of concept" but hate the pose (not to mention the weapon loadout).
It's a little misleading, though. That's extremely close to the default pose for that figure. You can stick any model on a piece of wire and present a different look... it doesn't really count as a new POSE though.
So repositioning of both legs, the head, arm replacement and repositioning doesn't count as a new pose. Noted for future development
I like the ribbed armor as a nod to the GSC minis, but I'm not keen on how the artwork looks compared to the original minis.
I agree. I liked the original Cawdor that could well be gaolers, lay-brothers or executioners to the Redemptionists full-out robed Inquisitors/Spanish church/Klan members. The OG gang is easily the best, tied with Escher. So far all gangs are good, but I need my hoods and
I should've ebayed that Cawdor gang a few weeks back just in case those are not to my liking. Sigh.
Don't know about your place but garbage collector earn good income in my country. And I doubt they'd have much competitions in that field, unlike the other house's specialty.
I like the ribbed armor as a nod to the GSC minis, but I'm not keen on how the artwork looks compared to the original minis.
I agree. I liked the original Cawdor that could well be gaolers, lay-brothers or executioners to the Redemptionists full-out robed Inquisitors/Spanish church/Klan members. The OG gang is easily the best, tied with Escher. So far all gangs are good, but I need my hoods and
I should've ebayed that Cawdor gang a few weeks back just in case those are not to my liking. Sigh.
PS: They're garbagemen now? Poor sods.
I think it's weird that they kept the mask in an otherwise mundane, industrially dressed look. Doesn't go together at all in my opinion.
I'm quite looking forward to this kit, though. If that picture is representative of the elements we get in it, maybe we'll get low-tech bionics to cover both arms and legs in plastic. That would be cool. Throw in a few female sculpts as well and I'm happy. Would probably end up being everything but Cawdor for mine, but hey.
Chopstick wrote: Don't know about your place but garbage collector earn good income in my country. And I doubt they'd have much competitions in that field, unlike the other house's specialty.
Oh, they make pretty good money I think, but the rats and other garbage gribblies here aren't horse-sized and raised on radioactive sludge, either.
The way I see Necro everything of value is tried to keep on houde property (see: recycled protein food from...sources) and the vilest offal dumped deeper into the hive. I can't see a full house thriving on waste disposal because I think Van Saar would guard their electro waste for spares and Orlocks and Goliaths will smelt down the thickest sludge again for a few more credits of pure metal.
The way I see Necro everything of value is tried to keep on houde property (see: recycled protein food from...sources) and the vilest offal dumped deeper into the hive. I can't see a full house thriving on waste disposal because I think Van Saar would guard their electro waste for spares and Orlocks and Goliaths will smelt down the thickest sludge again for a few more credits of pure metal.
Obviously everyone could cut cost and recycled their own stuff, or even better, just bring all the garbage to the cawdor house and donate it to them for no cost, or bring them to any random garbage dump in your turf. But by doing so, they're also wasting time travelling/transporting, recycling stuff while they could also use that time doing something else more profitable for them.
I figure they're also well aware of the numerous gang fight that happen everywhere and show up right after to scavenge for stuff/doing clean up service if anyone order them to.
Flinty wrote: Pshaw... you're only as limited as your imagination
The standard poses are fine for mooks, but they aren't that hard to turn into something a bit different. Fiddly, definitely, but doable.
I love this as a "proof of concept" but hate the pose (not to mention the weapon loadout).
It's a little misleading, though. That's extremely close to the default pose for that figure. You can stick any model on a piece of wire and present a different look... it doesn't really count as a new POSE though.
So repositioning of both legs, the head, arm replacement and repositioning doesn't count as a new pose. Noted for future development
Well now I feel bad.
I don't want to overlook the work you put in, and I'm a huge proponent of subtle conversions over campy, bold ones.
But you gotta admit your final results looks reaaaaally close to one of the five poses that comes straight out of the box.
Have you done any others, or is that the only conversion so far? I'd be interested in seeing anything else you've put together. I'm about to move onto my third box, and this will be where I start feeling the freedom to hack models apart.
I like the ribbed armor as a nod to the GSC minis, but I'm not keen on how the artwork looks compared to the original minis.
I agree. I liked the original Cawdor that could well be gaolers, lay-brothers or executioners to the Redemptionists full-out robed Inquisitors/Spanish church/Klan members. The OG gang is easily the best, tied with Escher. So far all gangs are good, but I need my hoods and
I should've ebayed that Cawdor gang a few weeks back just in case those are not to my liking. Sigh.
PS: They're garbagemen now? Poor sods.
The good thing is, if you don't like the new ones the older miniatures will drop in price on the 'Bay as soon as the new ones come out.
At least that's tended to happen with the other gangs (they are still expensive, but not obscene price levels as they have been in the past few years).
Another option is the Northstar/Frstograve plastics cultists, which are very cheap and you can kit them out with sci-fi/40k weapons.
I'm getting a bunch of these guys for a narrative scenario in my campaign, where a bunch of gangs are having to fight their way through loads of them to get to an artifact they want to get their hands on.
I doubt that it is easy to just dumo your stuff to Cawdor territories, that's something like sending freight trains with valuable enough cargo from France through Germany to Russia during the lead up to WW1 with merc raids and covert-ops sabotage on top. Those Houses are small countries. Newcromunda does it so I have to accept it, though...or ignore it like I ignore the return of loyalist Primarchs and the whole Dark Imperium thing.
Yes, I'm getting old and stubborn and I read my old Necromunda books too much.
PS: I hope that drop in price is correct. From cursory glances at German ebay Escher for example are just rarer now, not really cheaper.
Another option is the Northstar/Frstograve plastics cultists, which are very cheap and you can kit them out with sci-fi/40k weapons.
I'm getting a bunch of these guys for a narrative scenario in my campaign, where a bunch of gangs are having to fight their way through loads of them to get to an artifact they want to get their hands on.
Problem is the top of these guys' hoods will reach to an Orlock's nipples, never mind Goliaths.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Finally got GW3, and damn, why wasn't this the first book released? It's so full of content it's just silly.
I'm glad to hear this and looking forward to picking mine up. Hopefully the local GW gets a copy. I went to buy a box of Van Saar from them on release day...
What about the core rules though? The main reason why I haven't invested in necro yet is because I have to pay 100 euros for the core rulebook. I don't care about escher or goliath.
There's only about 20 pages of the core rulebook which are actually relevant to full Necromunda. The rest of the pages (Weapons, profiles, skills, costs, Trading Post, scenarios, Goliath, Escher) are only relevant to the boxed game. It's pretty much all been replaced by GW books, except those few "core" rule pages (Movement, Actions, Shooting, Close combat etc.).
"Most of the stuff is superseded by the upgrade kit. The only thing the main vehicle comes with is the chassis, steering, suspension, breaks, electronics, and engine!"
Uh huh.
Yeah, the important stuff.
Anyway, even if you don't care about Escher, the box is more than just the two gangs. There's the terrain, dice and mortalis boards, which are all great.
I got the box and promptly sold off the gangs. I just wanted the tiles. I also grabbed the box of fancy tiles and the box each of extra doors and barricades. Pro tip, don’t buy the boxes of extra doors and barricades if you buy the main box. You end up with Way more than you’ll ever really need.
AduroT wrote: I got the box and promptly sold off the gangs. I just wanted the tiles. I also grabbed the box of fancy tiles and the box each of extra doors and barricades. Pro tip, don’t buy the boxes of extra doors and barricades if you buy the main box. You end up with Way more than you’ll ever really need.
There are no door in 3d game, unless you want those double door as wall..
H.B.M.C. wrote: "Most of the stuff is superseded by the upgrade kit. The only thing the main vehicle comes with is the chassis, steering, suspension, breaks, electronics, and engine!"
Uh huh.
Yeah, the important stuff.
Anyway, even if you don't care about Escher, the box is more than just the two gangs. There's the terrain, dice and mortalis boards, which are all great.
Plus, the rules.
I'd still be paying a lot for gangs I have no interest in. Its Orlock or Van Saar that I want.
Also, this may sound heretical, but I don't care much for buying terrain
- Body 1 can be armed with a lasgun and power knife, or a suppression laser
- Body 2 can be armed with a plasma gun and shock stave, or a rad cannon;
- Body 3 can be armed with a lascarbine or a lasgun
- Body 4 can be armed with a combi weapon (lasgun/melta) and Hrystrar pattern energy shield, or a lasgun
- Body 5 can be armed with 2 plasma pistols, or 2 laspistols;
That's a really convoluted way of just saying "this box set comes with 6 lasguns, 4 las pistols, 4 plasma pistols, 2 combi weapons, 2 shields, 2 suppression lasers, 2 power knifes, 2 shock staves, 2 radcannons, 2 plasma guns, and 2 lascarbines"
A list like on the orlock page would have been a lot clearer.
No subcarbines though? That's annoying.
There are no rad-guns, just a rad-cannon.
Options in general are limited, 'cos the sprue is full of head-cables.
The omni-grips (most weapons have the short or long grip) only have a small amount of weapon choices.
I'm not impressed with the, overall. Nice models, but few options.
The omni-grips (most weapons have the short or long grip) only have a small amount of weapon choices.
Yes, that's the reason why there's no list of weapons like that what comes with the other gangs: you can't have them all. The Van Saar list is correct, but the or should be highlighted.
There is 1 melee weapon in the kit (twice), and is left-handed (IIRC). Pistols can be either.
Also, there is an empty hand as part of the rad-cannon model. Put a weapon from another kit in that. The only melee weapons are the shock-stave arm, and a sheathed knife.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Wait, so I can't give a model a melee weapon + plasma pistol? That's really a really arbitrary restriction. I'm not sure I want to start Van Saar now.
You get pistol arm for both left and right side, and the only weapon Van Saar have is the shield and the shock stave on the left arm, so you can.
The power kniife is an accessory bit that attach to the model.
As for long gun you would have notice the "weapon half", some of them don't have the arm holding the gun, while some do. So normally you can't have a one-handed supression laser, or 2 handed plasma gun.
1x Combi Melta/Lasgun
1x Rad Cannon
4x Lasguns
2x Lascarbines
1x Supression Laser
1x Plasmagun
2x Las Pistols
2x Plasma Pistols
1x Shock Stave
1x Energy Shield
1x Sheathed Knife
3x assorted grenades
One lasgun and the supression laser only work with the relaxed double handed posture.
One lasgun and one las carbine only work with the double handed aiming posture.
Every other weapon is one handed.
There are two one handed rifle stocks.
There are three one handed pistol grips, 2x right handed, 1x left handed.
The Shock Stave is in the right hand iirc.
There is an empty left fist intended for the Shield.
There is an empty open left hand.
Any set of arms will work on any body.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Wait, so I can't give a model a melee weapon + plasma pistol? That's really a really arbitrary restriction. I'm not sure I want to start Van Saar now.
Well, there're only two (i.e. four) melee weopons (sans the shield) in the box. As the knife is on the belt you can have a guy with plasma pistol, shield and knife for example. I guess a combination with the staff is possible too.
Skinnereal wrote: There is 1 melee weapon in the kit (twice), and is left-handed (IIRC). Pistols can be either.
Ah ok, that's fine. The wording on their site is really weird. It implies that the weapon configurations are set according to the model's body.
Some models will look odd with certain arms. The cannon is probably only going to work on a couple of models, with the heads turned away from it, or legs in the wrong position.
I am magnetising mine, all the way, and if you match pairs of arms with bodies as you go, you should manage to get everything to work.
There are 2 sets of arm-weapon pairs per sprue, with the other arm holding the weapon up, and will need planning early on. I'll do two lasguns, and a carbine and suppressor I think.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: That's a really convoluted way of just saying "this box set comes with 6 lasguns, 4 las pistols, 4 plasma pistols, 2 combi weapons, 2 shields, 2 suppression lasers, 2 power knifes, 2 shock staves, 2 radcannons, 2 plasma guns, and 2 lascarbines"
A list like on the orlock page would have been a lot clearer.
No subcarbines though? That's annoying.
You can easily trim down the carbine front end and mate with the pistol back end to get a subcarbine.
Skinnereal wrote: Some models will look odd with certain arms. The cannon is probably only going to work on a couple of models, with the heads turned away from it, or legs in the wrong position.
.
Most of the arms are interchangeable. The shoulder pads cover a lot of the potential imperfect fits you might run across, since they're separate from the arms and are added afterwards.
A couple of combinations might look weird (ie. the "firing" arms on the running body) but most will turn out looking natural if you're prudent about positioning.
Also, the "neck" bits that govern the facing of the head are interchangeable across all bodies, excluding the one specially fitted to the "running" and/or female body.
You can easily trim down the carbine front end and mate with the pistol back end to get a subcarbine.
Yeah, there are a couple of solutions that don't require a ton of effort. Ditto for making better lascarbines, which a lot of people seem interested in doing because the out-of-the-kit lascarbines aren't very carbine-like (same size as the lasguns, and if anything they seem a little heavier due to the extra rail on the top)
To represent X, Y or Z one can:
- stick the laspistol front on the lasgun rifle stock/grip
- stick the lasgun/lascarbine front on the laspistol stock/grip
- trim the lasgun/lascarbine front to pair with either stock/grip piece
The lasgun stock also has a helpful panel line that, if one were to trim along, would produce the appearance of a lighter-looking CQC style stock. Just cross your fingers that you don't discover a bubble in there and wind up with a void that needs filling.
My biggest disappointments with the kit are:
- the female torso only pairs with the running legs (which are slimmer than all the other legs)
- as noted above, only one "neck" option works with the female torso; I trimmed a different one to fit, but it was tedious
- the necks in general are over-designed. The typical ball-and-socket join would have provided much more variety
- there's only one empty off-hand per sprue (I hate the idea of everybody dual-wielding 24/7)
The "foot on ammo crate" pose is also annoying. I hate when a highly-distinctive pose like that makes its way into a box of basic troopers. It's fine for a one-off character model, but I don't want 1 per 5 gangers standing like that.
I know I won’t use the second ammo crate pose mini. That one is reserved for my Leader with Munitioneer. Even just an alternate leg for that body where it wasn’t Captain Morganing something would have been nice. Definitely could have used more empty hands. Would have loved a retracted Shock Stave bit to stick on a belt. It’s practicaly criminal that they didn’t include a Rad Gun in the kit. Granted at this point we’re practically needing another sprue...
I wish the energy Shields had been fully clear plastic instead of tinted so one could use the gem paints or shades/glazes to custom tint it.
Well you'd think it'd be to make the weapons modular, so that when FW does weapon kits they can make weapon fronts that work with the plastic weapon backs.
and even then, the gains in space and material are so small (or would be so small), that it doesn't even come close to compensate for the hassle of gluing these 2 pieces together
Uh, less arms so they have more space on the sprue for more weapons? I mean it has obvious benefit in the plastic box even if the resin kit didn’t continue it.
AduroT wrote: Uh, less arms so they have more space on the sprue for more weapons? I mean it has obvious benefit in the plastic box even if the resin kit didn’t continue it.
I bet this is right,
a step forward in GWs view from things like the genestealer cult kits with a full set of autogun arms and a full set of shotgun arms where you only ever use one, as having spare arms (and heads) encourages you to go out and buy 3rd party bodies to use them on
AduroT wrote: Uh, less arms so they have more space on the sprue for more weapons? I mean it has obvious benefit in the plastic box even if the resin kit didn’t continue it.
yeah but the quality and the solidity of the model is affected to such an extent, that I can't see why anybody would consider this a good thing
a step forward in GWs view from things like the genestealer cult kits with a full set of autogun arms and a full set of shotgun arms where you only ever use one, as having spare arms (and heads) encourages you to go out and buy 3rd party bodies to use them on
AduroT wrote: Uh, less arms so they have more space on the sprue for more weapons? I mean it has obvious benefit in the plastic box even if the resin kit didn’t continue it.
yeah but the quality and the solidity of the model is affected to such an extent, that I can't see why anybody would consider this a good thing
Plastic glue and the solidity is gonna be as good as if it was one piece, pretty much. Quality looks fine to me.
Grot 6 wrote: Does Tennessee sell Forgeworld stuff at that GW location? I'm interested in getting the add ons, but can't get them from Forgeworld.
I was there 2 years ago, and they did not sell any Forgewold. It is literally just a normal GW store connected to the USA office. I think they will be selling ForgeWorld at the new Cafe in Texas though?
AduroT wrote: Uh, less arms so they have more space on the sprue for more weapons? I mean it has obvious benefit in the plastic box even if the resin kit didn’t continue it.
yeah but the quality and the solidity of the model is affected to such an extent, that I can't see why anybody would consider this a good thing
Plastic glue and the solidity is gonna be as good as if it was one piece, pretty much. Quality looks fine to me.
Not at all. especially for the pistols, which are a lot more prone to deformation or coming apart than if they were a one piece
No, they're just too fiddly and the joins are not suitable for magnets. I'll echo the criticism of the Van Saar kit - these are so bloody fiddly to assemble. Loads of tiny pieces with not very nice joins.
AduroT wrote: Uh, less arms so they have more space on the sprue for more weapons? I mean it has obvious benefit in the plastic box even if the resin kit didn’t continue it.
yeah but the quality and the solidity of the model is affected to such an extent, that I can't see why anybody would consider this a good thing
Plastic glue and the solidity is gonna be as good as if it was one piece, pretty much. Quality looks fine to me.
Not at all. especially for the pistols, which are a lot more prone to deformation or coming apart than if they were a one piece
In my experience, if a plastic glue join breaks, it would have broken if it was a solid piece anyway. Often I’ve tried to break a plastic glue join apart and the plastic around it has snapped instead.
zedmeister wrote: No, they're just too fiddly and the joins are not suitable for magnets. I'll echo the criticism of the Van Saar kit - these are so bloody fiddly to assemble. Loads of tiny pieces with not very nice joins.
Well gak, that's a pity. I really like the Van Saar look, but if its going to be a hassel to assemble then I'm not sure I want to bother with them. I had a glance at the Orlock loadout and it seems really dull to me. No special weapons -_-
I guess I'll wait for Cawdor and Delaque then. Maybe I'll just do Enforcers.
The Van Saar models are ace. Intricate and detailed and wigh nice baseline poses for a shooty gang. The 2 part weapons are fine. You can easily put together 4 in an hour or so. A bit longer if you want to mix up the poses a bit. While the legs are pretty much twinned with the torsos, everything else can be swapoed easily. And yoh can change some of the stances quite easily.
I've been pleasantly surprised by how flexible they are.
AduroT wrote: Uh, less arms so they have more space on the sprue for more weapons? I mean it has obvious benefit in the plastic box even if the resin kit didn’t continue it.
yeah but the quality and the solidity of the model is affected to such an extent, that I can't see why anybody would consider this a good thing
Plastic glue and the solidity is gonna be as good as if it was one piece, pretty much. Quality looks fine to me.
Not at all. especially for the pistols, which are a lot more prone to deformation or coming apart than if they were a one piece
In my experience, if a plastic glue join breaks, it would have broken if it was a solid piece anyway. Often I’ve tried to break a plastic glue join apart and the plastic around it has snapped instead.
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that's true if the joint are relatively big. The joint between the 2 parts of the gun are miniscule. really hard to get enough glue on them to get a good melt between the 2 part, and not have the glue overflow are ruining the details
It's not the worst thing ever, but it's sure aint something I hope they keep for the later kits
that's true if the joint are relatively big. The joint between the 2 parts of the gun are miniscule. really hard to get enough glue on them to get a good melt between the 2 part, and not have the glue overflow are ruining the details
It's not the worst thing ever, but it's sure aint something I hope they keep for the later kits
Did you try using this type of plastic glue? Reading your past posts It look like you didn't use it.
zedmeister wrote: No, they're just too fiddly and the joins are not suitable for magnets. I'll echo the criticism of the Van Saar kit - these are so bloody fiddly to assemble. Loads of tiny pieces with not very nice joins.
Well gak, that's a pity. I really like the Van Saar look, but if its going to be a hassel to assemble then I'm not sure I want to bother with them.
I had a glance at the Orlock loadout and it seems really dull to me. No special weapons -_-
I guess I'll wait for Cawdor and Delaque then. Maybe I'll just do Enforcers.
I dunno if I'd go so far as to call it a hassle -- everything fits, and there's nothing unforgivably disastrous about the kit -- but you'll definitely wonder many time throughout the building "WHY THE **** DID THEY MAKE IT LIKE THIS".
The problems are much worse if you have a perfectionist streak; you'll worry about gun alignment, shoulder pad symmetry, pose repetition, off-hand WYSIWYG, etc.
zedmeister wrote: No, they're just too fiddly and the joins are not suitable for magnets. I'll echo the criticism of the Van Saar kit - these are so bloody fiddly to assemble. Loads of tiny pieces with not very nice joins.
Well gak, that's a pity. I really like the Van Saar look, but if its going to be a hassel to assemble then I'm not sure I want to bother with them.
I had a glance at the Orlock loadout and it seems really dull to me. No special weapons -_-
I guess I'll wait for Cawdor and Delaque then. Maybe I'll just do Enforcers.
but you'll definitely wonder many time throughout the building "WHY THE **** DID THEY MAKE IT LIKE THIS".
.
You see, I consider that a hassel. That's the exact same thing I thought about the Ark and deathmark kits, and its annoying.
I just put together my first 5 Van Saar and I would say they are the most frustrating GW kit in many years. From the tiny bits, odd cuts, two-part guns with no alignment guides to speak of, to extremely limited poses, fiddly construction (the necks are especially infuriating) and for all the talk in the fluff about how every piece of their gear is a unique masterpiece, in contrast to the mass-produced dreck of other houses, they are in fact the only house where every bit is copy/pasted, down to all 4 male chest pieces being identical, with not even a stray skul here or there for variety. And for all that trouble with gun modularity, the space "saved" is just used for an excessive amount of lasgun muzzles and a combi melta pistol with no stats in the book.
Also if you have trouble finding Japanese product you can use Plastic Magic instead, same type of glue, same type of bottle. The brush tip is smaller.
The gun head will fit into any arm, with stock or not, They even show you some examble of Plasma pistol with stock, dual wielding lascarbine at the end of the instruction
Althougt some 2 handed gun only go with specific left arm, so trying to fit it with the other left arm and trying to repose them could be a little troublesome.
Don't have much trouble with the 1 handed gun.
Most of the space wasted are from the "techno braid" which I think should be 2 per sprue, to tell which one is Champ/Leader.
The male torso, thigh, and butt area are left blank intentionally to glue accessories on.
None of the other gangs have particular leader/champion-soecific bits (apart from the Escher coat, I suppose), which is presumably intentional since the same model could be a champion, ganger or juve in different gang lineups.
Yes, they could have left the cables off to save room, but then you might as well say the same thing about the Escher's hair.
Ideally, they could have made the cables out of that bendy plastic the sprues of vines are made from - that way you could bend them round to plug into equipment or weapons carried by the models.
The thing that took too much space on the Escher sprue is the whip, a huge waste of space and still didn't look very good. The weapon isn't even good in-game.
Many of the Escher accessory are also a waste of space, too big and bulky, there are very little room to glue them on, and they don't even look good. The Van Saar accesories are much better than any of the previous gangs.
Which accessories? The chem-synths? I found them pretty easy to add - they attach to the waist of the models pretty well. Better than the Goliath stick grenades, which you just have to glue on and hope.
The chem synth are on all body except for the Leader body, which they fit the right thigh if one wish not to use the cape. It is the only bit that is designed to fit perfectly.
All the accessory have a huge band attach to them which supposed to make them easier to glue, what they do is make them extra bulky, and make it very hard if you want to rotate the bit, unless you trim it off, which is extremely annoying.
The knife bit is huge, I can't get myself to use any of them without them look like they're getting in the way of the model movement : poking the back, poking the armpit, poking the arm.....
Van Saar accessory no longer had that band, Good riddance.
The Goliath stick grenade is prone to fall off, but the bit itself look okay on the model, unlike the Goliath knife bit, which is badly design , because chain on it would look like it defy gravity if glued sideway
Much as I love these models, GW really should have done more to make them compatible with the rest of their line. Orlocks have these strange shoulder joints that don't fit well with other torsos and the hands are noticeably larger than Catachans or Cadians.
While the standard action figure designs might lead to bland poses they're much more fun to assemble.
Adeptus Doritos wrote: The modular gun parts are good for affixing to the model if he is also carrying X weapon.
What do you mean, exactly? The fact that the guns are modular and there are no "stock-with-no-hand-attached" bits mean that it's much tougher to slap a secondary weapon on their back or leg, if that's the kind of thing you're talking about. The kit still allows you to represent multiple weapons without conversions, but at that point you're turning models in the "sleek and unhealthy rad-sickness gang" into people that somehow decideddual-wielding rifles was a good idea...
The male torso, thigh, and butt area are left blank intentionally to glue accessories on.
The one thing I absolutely love about this kit (credit where it's due) is the restraint they showed in not modeling insignia and icons and skulls everywhere. I suppose all of the Necromunda releases are fairly restrained in comparison to the 40K ouevre.
Chopstick wrote: The chem synth are on all body except for the Leader body, which they fit the right thigh if one wish not to use the cape. It is the only bit that is designed to fit perfectly.
All the accessory have a huge band attach to them which supposed to make them easier to glue, what they do is make them extra bulky, and make it very hard if you want to rotate the bit, unless you trim it off, which is extremely annoying.
The knife bit is huge, I can't get myself to use any of them without them look like they're getting in the way of the model movement : poking the back, poking the armpit, poking the arm.....
Van Saar accessory no longer had that band, Good riddance.
The Goliath stick grenade is prone to fall off, but the bit itself look okay on the model, unlike the Goliath knife bit, which is badly design , because chain on it would look like it defy gravity if glued sideway
The las ammo 3-pack chest accessory is another a perfect fit.
I found the Van Saar grenades too huge-looking to use. They look ok in the instruction manual, but on the model they stood out as inhumanly-gigantic to my eyes.
I found the Van Saar grenades too huge-looking to use. They look ok in the instruction manual, but on the model they stood out as inhumanly-gigantic to my eyes.
Just try to put them on today and yup they are indeed bulky, back of the bit don't have the giant band, but they have tiny button for some reason.
Sculptor probably is not as experience as GW mainline sculptor, as kit like GSC Neophyte Hybrid, Marine, Tau Warrior, and Deathwatch have much smaller accesory bit, and is much easier to glue. But look like he is improving.
A lot of discussion about the miniatures and moddeling part, less so about the rules. For example, the book is actually quite good and fixes many problems from the previous books. The cards on the other hand are more messy and unbalanced this time.
Albertorius wrote: I think most people has given up on the rules part until a proper errataed compilation is eventually published.
I know I have.
Same reason I haven't gotten into it yet. They released a complilation for BB after 2 seasons, why they're making us wait for Necro after 3 gang war books evades me.
Baxx wrote: A lot of discussion about the miniatures and moddeling part, less so about the rules. For example, the book is actually quite good and fixes many problems from the previous books. The cards on the other hand are more messy and unbalanced this time.
And some cards even have the same name as skills or other abilities - and a completely unrelated effect, of course.
Baxx wrote: A lot of discussion about the miniatures and moddeling part, less so about the rules. For example, the book is actually quite good and fixes many problems from the previous books. The cards on the other hand are more messy and unbalanced this time.
Haven't looked at the Van Saar cards yet, but yeah, Gang War 3 is a great book. Full of content, and all of it very useful.
Gw3 is great. But i find that there is a lack of little story and legend about the world in the new books. Like the one about the first skump crocodile.
Seems like there was a lot more of them in the old books, and it really made the game came alive
streetsamurai wrote: Gw3 is great. But i find that there is a lack of little story and legend about the world in the new books. Like the one about the first skump crocodile.
Seems like there was a lot more of them in the old books, and it really made the game came alive
The newer edition/round of books is lacking in the lore and world building department. No maps of a hive city, the planet, and minimal lore on the gangs and environment in these books. This is something they should try and improve on in the future.
privateer4hire wrote: Does GW3 correct previous stuff including the weapon stats or does it introduce new questions?
Both. It fixes a lot of problems (Shock Whip back to Versatile, Multimelta now Scarce, Stub Gun and Dumdums now Pistol, ++). Blaze weapon trait is fixed and actually makes sense now. A few new problems (very minor) is the Van Saar spider pet got different Web Pistol profile than Armoury. And tunneling claw got Versatile with 2" long range and Melta trait. Not sure how that's supposed to work.
This book just got so much more quality than all the previous ones combined.
streetsamurai wrote: Gw3 is great. But i find that there is a lack of little story and legend about the world in the new books. Like the one about the first skump crocodile.
Seems like there was a lot more of them in the old books, and it really made the game came alive
The newer edition/round of books is lacking in the lore and world building department. No maps of a hive city, the planet, and minimal lore on the gangs and environment in these books. This is something they should try and improve on in the future.
What's infuriating in that regard is the evidently *have* all this material, they must have sat down and gone through the old Confrontation material and picked out the bits to blend with Necromunda proper, and we know they have new maps of Hive Primus and the planet's surface because we got teeny wee snippets of them on the preview site back around release. But it seems like they've decided to keep all that stuff in-house for some mad reason.
I mean, even if they didn't have the time/room to put it in the Gang Wars, would a couple of pages a month in WD really be too much effort/resources for them?
I think that will all come once Cawdor and Delaque gangs are released, and there's more room for background rather than rules in the books. In fact, the books accompanying those two gangs might have more background, since GW3 dumped most of the outstanding rules.
And also, Necromunda. At the Warhammer Fest preview, we got a look at some art for the upcoming Cawdor gang for Necromunda – a particularly iconic favourite among fans of the game.
For those of you new to Necromunda, the Cawdor are one of the underhive’s most unusual houses. Scrap-pickers, scavengers and junk hoarders, the Cawdor have scraped together a mighty under-empire from the leavings of the city. Bound together by an unshakeable, fanatical faith in the Emperor and armed with all manner of home-made weapons and armour, they are hell-bent on bringing their fervent worship to every dark corner of the underhive – and woe betide those who stand in their way.
The new Cawdor models were a fantastic opportunity for the Specialist Games team to take a closer look at some of the Imperium’s lowliest subjects. Each Cawdor model is hugely characterful, packed with exquisite grimdark gothic detail, from their ancient-looking vestments to clusters of candles and their huge, rusted polearms.
Interesting weaponry - suspected the Molotov's mentioned In one of the GW3 events might be standard fare for Cawdor. I do like that crossbow missle-launcher! I had hoped they might have more one-burst flamer attachments (but suppose that will be saved for the Redemptionists and Prometheum Guild option)
Tommy likey, even the candles are a good fit, despite the ridiculousness... I guess they are space candles from the future lol...
Seriously though, in the right painters hands, these could be some killer models. The stock paintjob is ok, but honestly blue is not the scheme I would have chosen for them, fiery colors or even greens and greys or something, but I wouldn't have used suck a stock orlock looking scheme.
Still, Necromunda has been a fantastic variety of models so far, good job GW and Fw.
I'm seeing three sets of repeat legs, but they're not too noticable.
May be more than legs. Except for heads and arms and the shin armor on 7, pairs 1 and 3, 2 and 5, 8 and 9. 4 and 7 appear to be identical figures.
Figure pairs 2, 5 and and 8, 9 appear to have mirrored leg poses.
I'm pretty excited for these guys. Hopefully there are more heads than what is shown. I think there are 5 bodies per sprue as usual. The polearms and the crossbow might take up a lot of sprue space..unfortunate but they are cool. I certainly look forward to seeing the resin upgrades for them.
Generally speaking they're better than I expected. The heavy and the leader are a turn off (too Redemptionist for me, not really Cawdor looking). The candles on the shoulder are fething stupid and need removing. The lack of females? Don't care - hell the females would probably have short cropped hair and wear masks anyway, and be equally as filthy.
However...I do like the basic dudes (the left 8) and they'd make excellent cultists, so that's a route I'll be going. Don't think I'll end up doing Necromunda really, but as cultists and generic baddies for random other games the set delivers. Still unacceptable that magically a month or two later we'll get Forge World weapon options which we didn't have access to originally, etc. The production ideas here are still piss-poor and it's why GW won't be seeing me buy into Necromunda properly.
Ooh, I like these! Always thought the old Cawdor wer abit boring, but these are crazy, love it. Liking their gangly limbs too, they’re properly emaciated.
I'm seeing three sets of repeat legs, but they're not too noticable.
I’m counting five different leg/body combo’s, like in the other Necromunda sets. More oddly, though, I’m only counting six different heads, instead of 9-10 different heads for the other gangs (some with interchangeable hair). I guess the masks make it less noticeable.
The way the shoulders all line up so neatly makes me think that the arms will attach at the elbow or wrist, rather than the shoulders.
Cawdor was definitely the gang I was most looking forward to and I have mixed feelings on them. They are very nice models, and I love the aesthetic, but I'm really bummed they did away with the cowls/hoods. That was a huge part of Cawdor to me, and it seems strange they left them out. I suppose they wouldn't be too hard to greenstuff, but it's still a little frustrating.
I'm a bit disappointed with them as Cawdor gangers, though my expectations were in the clouds after what they did with the last four gangs (especially Van Saar - whose old models I thought were abhorrent, and the new ones knocked my socks off - even if they are the most fiddly plastic models I have ever assembled). I will definitely be picking up a set to use as Cult of the Possessed for Mordheim however....they match that vibe to me perfectly.
Elbows wrote: ...
However...I do like the basic dudes (the left 8) and they'd make excellent cultists, so that's a route I'll be going. Don't think I'll end up doing Necromunda really, but as cultists and generic baddies for random other games the set delivers.
You read my mind!
Basically as close as we have to a generic cultists kit. Gonna kitbash his with GSC neophytes and stick on a few of the leftover fly pendants and heads from my pox walkers and Nurgle cultists will be ready for the table.
Those are...I don't know. Very cool, but extremely busy. And no hoods :/
I lile the rocket launcher that resembles the WW1 grenade launchers based on crossbows. My DG have several of those and the rocket would be a great addition.
Binabik15 wrote: Those are...I don't know. Very cool, but extremely busy. And no hoods :/
I lile the rocket launcher that resembles the WW1 grenade launchers based on crossbows. My DG have several of those and the rocket would be a great addition.
Hoods are for redemptionists. Candor are redemption light, thus masks but no hoods.
Not loving the candles, but it’s a fun piece and does make me mad.
Only thing that irks me is none of them look like they are in firing positions/shooting/aiming down sights, aside from maybe one of the pistol guys.
If they ever do redemptionists their thing will likely be the hoods and flame based weapons. And it would make sense for them to be a red/yellow scheme or something like that. Hope there are loose molotov cocktails/grenades to put on the waist too, kind of like the artwork.
I'm also not bothered about the lack of females this time. If they were allowed to do 2 unique sprues it would work better. But as shown with the Van Saar...the one female on the sprue didn't work out too well. The pistol arms for her were smaller, she hada smaller body overall. So the other arms looked a bit wonky on that particular body. Plus only one questionable female face on the sprue...it just didn't end up being worth it IMO.
I like my fictitious religious nuts to be bigoted, archaic and misogynist. I don't feel a women mini would have fit with them. Hopefully, we will get some for the ratskins
Loving the nuts of those Cawdor. Utterly brilliant minis. Even when you look for the duplicate leg/bodies they dont stand out as badly as in the other gangs. Properly impressed with them. As previously said, also a super easy way to build out a unit of cultists.
The Cawdor are gorgeous, could really see some fun painting them up dirty and moody. Even the candles work for me, it paints a picture of mining through junk in the dark belly of the hive.
It is a shame they don’t have hoods as they were such a big part of the original aesthetic but overall the junkier feel works for me.
Best comment I've seen so far is "Poor man's Custodes!".
But yeah, my initial reaction wasn't good but looking over them I think they work really well. If the FW conversion kits contain a few ramshackle shotguns/lasguns then they will unify quite well with the original Cawdor minis.
I think that they could stand to have a few hoods (maybe the FW conversion kits?), but I understand why they wouldn't've done with such limited sprue space. And good job hiding all the identical poses. Other than yet another "foot on top of something", these ones look all different despite being (technically) 2x5 of the same mini.
Far more successful than what they did with the Van Saars.
Best comment I've seen so far is "Poor man's Custodes!".
But yeah, my initial reaction wasn't good but looking over them I think they work really well. If the FW conversion kits contain a few ramshackle shotguns/lasguns then they will unify quite well with the original Cawdor minis.
I think that they could stand to have a few hoods (maybe the FW conversion kits?), but I understand why they wouldn't've done with such limited sprue space. And good job hiding all the identical poses. Other than yet another "foot on top of something", these ones look all different despite being (technically) 2x5 of the same mini.
Far more successful than what they did with the Van Saars.
I was the same - I didn’t like them at all initially but they grew on me very quickly. Which is annoying as Cawdor we’re the only gang I thought I’d probably not like and skip, but I’ll probably end up picking them up now. I like the unique weapons (crossbow, gun poleaxes, the big staff/axe thing on the leader).
I think the only thing I don't like is that two of the pole axe guys have a small knife in their other hand. How could you handle this huge weapon with only one hand?. Thankfully, srapping off the knife is litteraly a matter of seconds. Long live plastic
So very cool looking though I'm sad there isn't a big o heavy one blasting away with a heavy stubber anymore! He was the coolest of the bunch back in the day
Think the new Dawdor look great! Really characterful sculpts. There doesn't look to have been much of a scale or style jump either, so should go pretty well for people that still have the original minis.
Albertorius wrote: I think most people has given up on the rules part until a proper errataed compilation is eventually published.
I know I have.
Same reason I haven't gotten into it yet. They released a complilation for BB after 2 seasons, why they're making us wait for Necro after 3 gang war books evades me.
At the moment I'm using a hybrid of the classic and new rules for a campaign, which hopefully gets the best of both. The following format if anyone is interested!
Spoiler:
- Main game mechanics/rules & skills from N17. Including Yaktribe FAQ (https://yaktribe.games/community/vault/the-necromunda-yaq.911/updates)
- In-direct weapon attacks (grenades, grenade launchers) use rules from NCE.
- All post-game (experience, gang rating, missions, territories, trading inc. trading post) from NCE*
* Only addition to this is that the basic starting roster and equipment from N17 will be used. Where weapons/wargear exist in both N17 & NCE then N17 will be used as the source of truth. Otherwise full rare trade shopping list from NCE is used. New weapons from N17 rare trading added to NCE trading post as extra options.
The following custom rules will be used:
1) Replace WS 'to hit' roll with the below classic table from 40k/WHFB.
2) For advancement, use this table in place of classic Necro version.
2D6 Cost Advancement Value
2 Generate a random skill from any skill set
3 Generate a random skill from the fighter’s Secondary skill sets
4 Generate a random skill from the fighter’s Primary skill sets
5 Roll D6: 1-3 – +1 Strength; 4-6 – +1 Attack
6 Roll D6: 1-3 - improve WS by 1; 4-6 - improve BS by 1
7 Roll D6: 1-3 – +1 Movement; 4-6 – improve Initiative by 1
8 Roll D6: 1-2 – improve Leadership by 1; 3-4 – improve Cool by 1; 5 – improve Willpower by 1; 6 – improve Intelligence by 1
9 Roll D6: 1-3 - +1 Toughness; 4-6 - +1 Wound
10 Generate a random skill from the fighter’s Primary skill sets
11 Pick a skill from the fighter’s Primary skill sets
12 Pick a skill from the fighter’s Secondary skill sets
streetsamurai wrote: I like my fictitious religious nuts to be bigoted, archaic and misogynist. I don't feel a women mini would have fit with them. Hopefully, we will get some for the ratskins
Binabik15 wrote: Those are...I don't know. Very cool, but extremely busy. And no hoods :/
I lile the rocket launcher that resembles the WW1 grenade launchers based on crossbows. My DG have several of those and the rocket would be a great addition.
Hoods are for redemptionists. Candor are redemption light, thus masks but no hoods.
Not loving the candles, but it’s a fun piece and does make me mad.
I mean whatever the right English word is for the old models outfits:
And seeing how The Cult of Redemption has (had?) the status of an official religion in House Cawdor with nearly everyone adhering to it in OG Necro I wouldn't call them the "light" version - the outlaw Redemptionists are the "take it up to eleven" variant, that's why they're outlaws and all
Pacific wrote: Think the new Dawdor look great! Really characterful sculpts. There doesn't look to have been much of a scale or style jump either, so should go pretty well for people that still have the original minis.
What are you basing that on? Unless these are drastically smaller than the other gangs they will be substantially larger than the original minis.
I've put some of the classic Escher minis amongst the new ones and they look fine together, they are a little smaller but the proportions are the same and importantly the style fits.
Goliaths are obviously completely different and make the old minis unusable. The style of the new Van Saar is radically different from the old and so unless you are using the originals as apprentices/juves or similar they don't really fit.
So, in comparison to the above I'd say there is a pretty good chance that the minis will work reasonably well together.
I wonder if 2 is the amount of autoguns on the Cawdor sprue? Mildly disappointed If thet is the case. More disappointed that there are no Female cawdor models.
Pacific wrote: I've put some of the classic Escher minis amongst the new ones and they look fine together, they are a little smaller but the proportions are the same and importantly the style fits.
Goliaths are obviously completely different and make the old minis unusable. The style of the new Van Saar is radically different from the old and so unless you are using the originals as apprentices/juves or similar they don't really fit.
So, in comparison to the above I'd say there is a pretty good chance that the minis will work reasonably well together.
Then we disagree on how much of a problem the size differential is.
JohnnyHell wrote: I just noticed they suffer from “Leader and Heavy standing on same object” syndrome again.
Only if you use that torso for both the Leader and a Champion. There's nothing particularly fancy that appears to be part of that torso/legs piece, so use it for gangers if you want.
Pacific wrote: I've put some of the classic Escher minis amongst the new ones and they look fine together, they are a little smaller but the proportions are the same and importantly the style fits.
Goliaths are obviously completely different and make the old minis unusable. The style of the new Van Saar is radically different from the old and so unless you are using the originals as apprentices/juves or similar they don't really fit.
So, in comparison to the above I'd say there is a pretty good chance that the minis will work reasonably well together.
Then we disagree on how much of a problem the size differential is.
Fair enough! Realise that sort of area is very subjective.
Re. The hoods (or lack thereof) perhaps I'm reading too much into this but the Warhammer Community blog does say that: 'Like the other plastic gang sets, the Cawdor gang is jam-packed with customisation options, from esoteric wargear like heavy crossbows to incendiary charges and a variety of hoods, heads and accessories'.
Perhaps that is just the odd one or two like on the crossbow guy though?
Wow, I still don't particularly like their heads, but I actually said "Oh, damn," aloud when I saw these guys. I think this set is a great addition to the setting, since it's pretty broadly applicable for any sort of imperial cult etc. One of the best aesthetic updates in a long time, IMHO.
Mostly psyked. Those ponchos imply to me these will be hard to convert, my main problem with the Orlocks was the non-standard arms and I assume they'll be an issue here too.
Nothing files and knives and green stuff can't solve but still, irking. Y'know.
Baxx wrote: Do you think we get additional rules for molotov coctails, or do they just use rules for incendiary grenades?
At a guess they will either be slightly weaker incendiary charges or will be a house list exclusive. Even then for 10 points for a str 3 d 1 blast 5" blaze grenade they are incredibly strong if they get incendiary charges in house list as the main thing holding them back is rarity 7, with a 9" range they are probably better value than an actual flamer. Wonder if they will get a special shotgun ammo type, like trash rounds to represent them just shoving junk they found into the blunderbuss looking guns.
I an kinda expecting the "flamer focus" will be more a focus on cheap flame grenades and hand flamers (with full flamer at a discount in house list) compared to redemptionists who will probably get special types of flamers and maybe a focus on heavy flamers.
The spears might either work as buy a spear (unwieldy so takes 2 slots)- buy a gun attachment like a sight or a suspensor but it turns gun into a combi so you are getting an unwieldy 2 slot weapon + a 1 slot gun for 2 slots instead of 3 or just have 2-3 types of polearm gun, as one looks like an auto gun spear, the other a blunderbuss or shotgun type weapon.
My guess is there will be 2 spears per sprue (3 in total with the leaders non gun halberd) wondering if the gun part will be interchangeable like the van saar guns, 1 crossbow. Though 3 spears+crossbow will take up alot of the sprue.
Personally I wouldn't mind cawdor losing the "brawn" skill primaries for either ferocity/combat or ferocity/cunning, as despite their looks they have intelligence stats only just shy of van saar as they tend be smart in a street sense/getting anything to work vs Van Saars more high tech intelligence. Aso just cause I find brawn/combat to be a really boring skill set and weak compared to shooting/agility/cunning/ferocity ones. Infiltrating a dude and starting a fight with a molotov out of no where feels very religious riot.
If you look at the pic there are three spears on there, each with a different gun and different blade. So that means that there are 3 per sprue (6 per box) or there are two per sprue (4 per box) and the blade/gun attachment is separate.
Pinstripepete wrote: Re. The hoods (or lack thereof) perhaps I'm reading too much into this but the Warhammer Community blog does say that: 'Like the other plastic gang sets, the Cawdor gang is jam-packed with customisation options, from esoteric wargear like heavy crossbows to incendiary charges and a variety of hoods, heads and accessories'.
Perhaps that is just the odd one or two like on the crossbow guy though?
In the Van Saar box, there were enough heads to do either 'all masked' or 'all unmasked'. So maybe the special hoods are there in abundance.
JohnnyHell wrote: Given you can’t with the other gang boxes, how do you know these are different?
Not quite just the legs specifically, but the legs and torsos. You can give your 'leader' or 'champion' any body you want out of the box. I own a box of each of them. And you can kinda look at the way the Cawdor are shaped and assume it's interchangeable.
But if it's a big deal to you, then maybe wait a little bit and they'll show the sprue on the GW site.
JohnnyHell wrote: I just noticed they suffer from “Leader and Heavy standing on same object” syndrome again.
You can have your leader and champion use any set of legs you like in the box.
Given you can’t with the other gang boxes, how do you know these are different?
Given that you totally can with all the others, why do you think this will be different?
(Even leaving aside the option of simply not using that body as your leader, all of the other gangs will let you put almost any pair of arms on any body. The only real exception being the Escher trenchcoat of awesome.)
AduroT wrote: There were only eight masks for the ten Van Saar.
You're right, one of the five 'masks' on the sprue is the lower respirator without the mask. Of course, odds are you won't need 10 models for a starter set.
JohnnyHell wrote: I just noticed they suffer from “Leader and Heavy standing on same object” syndrome again.
You can have your leader and champion use any set of legs you like in the box.
Given you can’t with the other gang boxes, how do you know these are different?
Given that you totally can with all the others, why do you think this will be different?
(Even leaving aside the option of simply not using that body as your leader, all of the other gangs will let you put almost any pair of arms on any body. The only real exception being the Escher trenchcoat of awesome.)
Good to know. I’d taken it from the raging about certain bits only fitting with certain bits that roles were fixed. Appreciate the clarity!
JohnnyHell wrote: Given you can’t with the other gang boxes, how do you know these are different?
Not quite just the legs specifically, but the legs and torsos. You can give your 'leader' or 'champion' any body you want out of the box. I own a box of each of them. And you can kinda look at the way the Cawdor are shaped and assume it's interchangeable.
But if it's a big deal to you, then maybe wait a little bit and they'll show the sprue on the GW site.
Relax, not a ‘big deal’. I’m not buying in unless there’s a coherent, proof-read, complete rulebook anyway. The rules situation is too pricey, scattered and error-filled for me just now. What’s the price of getting all the rules running to these days, a boxed set and three supplements?
The rules at the moment consists of the main book from the box, GW1, GW2, GW3, White Dwarf with Chaos, White Dwarf with Genestealer Cult, White Dwarf with Bounty Hunters, the FAQ pdf and optionally the White Dwarf magazines with the additional scenarios. Luckily I have it all compiled into one single document so it makes it less error-filled and easier to navigate. At this point, Necromunda is very close or even better than before when it comes to content. Very fun and playable. A lot of the early big mistakes are fixed.
The variety is good enough now to allow 7 players with unique gangs. It would be easy to make rules for additional gangs like Squats or Orcs too. You don't need to wait for Cawdor or Delaque to have a rich campaign with varied gangs.
Appart from missing a few things like Power fist, bionics and outlander gangs, we got an abundance of new weapons, equipment, pets, hangers-on and status items. Much more than the original. And more scenarios too.
JohnnyHell wrote: Relax, not a ‘big deal’. I’m not buying in unless there’s a coherent, proof-read, complete rulebook anyway. The rules situation is too pricey, scattered and error-filled for me just now. What’s the price of getting all the rules running to these days, a boxed set and three supplements?
There exists thing out there where all of the rules are combined.
Baxx wrote: I mentioned the bounty hunters a while back, but it prompted no further discussion and was quickly overshadowed by the release of GW3 and Van Saar.
I have only played against them once. They are a considerably strong gang in skirmishes.
They seem to suffer in campaign where they earn a lot less money. They also pay a high price for their versatility, compare their ganger stat that is equal to chaos ganger, but costs 20 credits more.
Baxx wrote: They seem to suffer in campaign where they earn a lot less money. They also pay a high price for their versatility, compare their ganger stat that is equal to chaos ganger, but costs 20 credits more.
That's where they suffer. Plus, they don't have any fancy tricks.
-permanent access to some rare items (Rarity 11/10/8 for Leader/Champ/Ganger)
-each fighter class can choose from 4 different profiles, human/squat/Goliath/Van Saar.
-can carry 5 weapons instead of 3
-can choose what skills to have access to
-can buy House Legacy for individual fighters to give them access to a house weapon list
This gives you the opportunity to start a gang that includes any skills you want, fighters who start with BS2+ or T4, Chem Thrower and Harpoon Launcher, meltagun, missile launcher, all sorts of stuff. You can start with most types of armour, fields, extravagant goods, I guess even pets?
They have zero turf and can never gain any. If they capture anyone they have to sell them to the guilders but get full value instead of half. I forget what else.
They also get a bonus to the capture roll to see if anyone got caught in the first place, and a regular income that’s directly related to their reputation.
But yeah, they sacrifice cheapness for immense flexibility across the campaign.
Venator Champion have terrible stat compare to other gang's champion. Only one profile had 2+ BS, the rest have 4+ BS, with the "good CC" profile have BS 5+.
Ganger also cannot buy Special weapon.
They do benefit from short turf war cycle, which allow them to collect gang income base on Rep instead, which increase easier and faster than turf.
I'm more annoyed at them getting a bonus for permanently killing off enemies, it encourages dickish play and is a bad sign that GW is on the road to enabling the crowd who get off on making everyone else miserable (Enforcers, Spyrers).
lord_blackfang wrote: I'm more annoyed at them getting a bonus for permanently killing off enemies, it encourages dickish play and is a bad sign that GW is on the road to enabling the crowd who get off on making everyone else miserable (Enforcers, Spyrers).
TFG's are quite fond of the Enforcers in some of the local places. I'd just be happier if they weren't using junk models.
lord_blackfang wrote: it encourages dickish play and is a bad sign that GW is on the road to enabling the crowd who get off on making everyone else miserable (Enforcers, Spyrers).
Maybe people need to grow some coping mechanisms?
I am an old school Blood Bowl player and I miss the 3rd edition rules with special play cards that permanently hampered your team and players (peaked, stolen treasury, bad habits etc). Somehow we survived and loved the game (including those cards).
Since then rules for many games have gone all 'touchy-feely' concentrating on bonuses for your own side and only temporary negatives for opponents. Its a blight on many games and goes to show that people struggle with negative outcomes.
Baxx wrote: The more you pile on negative consequences, the more often I re-start the gang. Gives less continuation, less progress.
Lightweight. I've never restarted a gang in a campaign, no matter how badly mauled. Takes the fun out of it.
As for removing other gangers from the campaign, do the Venators get to capture more gangers than usual? After all, you get one at most, if you hold the field at the end, and then the other side gets to do a rescue mission. And once they are sold, that's what the prison break scenario is for.
Every gang is encouraged to take the other gang's member out of action. Especially when said gang is short on ganger, like Venator gang. It is a good way to earn XP. Why would you not want to take people out of action?
Venator do not gain any special modify to the opponent's Lasting Injuries roll.
H.B.M.C. wrote: That's why y'all should play the original Warhammer Quest. That game was unfair, by design, and it was incredible.
The advanced monster encounter rules were great. What’s that Timmy? You say you accidentally walked into a nest of D3 bloodthirsters as level one characters? And your absolute best attack rolling maximum damage doesn’t even get halfway past their damage reduction? That’s amazing Timmy!
Baxx wrote: The more you pile on negative consequences, the more often I re-start the gang. Gives less continuation, less progress.
Lightweight. I've never restarted a gang in a campaign, no matter how badly mauled. Takes the fun out of it.
As for removing other gangers from the campaign, do the Venators get to capture more gangers than usual? After all, you get one at most, if you hold the field at the end, and then the other side gets to do a rescue mission. And once they are sold, that's what the prison break scenario is for.
Losing the leader and having both champions in Recovery with -1T / -1BS / -1W takes the fund out of it. How fun would our 2nd game be? You won the first one, devastated my gang and now you get to rape a small gang consisting of only survivors? I don't get to play more than a handful of games per month. Therefore I insist those games should be of quality. I'd love to have enough games that I can just plough through all the losses.
H.B.M.C. wrote: That's why y'all should play the original Warhammer Quest. That game was unfair, by design, and it was incredible.
The advanced monster encounter rules were great. What’s that Timmy? You say you accidentally walked into a nest of D3 bloodthirsters as level one characters? And your absolute best attack rolling maximum damage doesn’t even get halfway past their damage reduction? That’s amazing Timmy!
Bloodthirsters? Pfft!
The journey home was more dangerous than Bloodthirsters. Staying in town was hazardous too.
I've lost more permanent Toughness stats to random events than I ever have from walking through a dungeon. And the "a fire burns half your gold" event is infamous in our group (we blamed the Elves and their hair spray), such much so that I wrote a blank event called Aelfyre, which randomly burns half your gold as an Event Card.
Even Advanced Heroquest had its moments. Fell into a pit trap, and no-one left up top has a rope? Time to roll up a new character. I've also seen a character in WFRP 2e spend a fate point to avoid death in the very first combat encounter, not ten minutes after filling out the character sheet.
Back to Necromunda, if one of my Champions goes down, then I will be much more careful with the others. Let the faceless mooks take the chances, there's more where they came from.
Baxx wrote: The more you pile on negative consequences, the more often I re-start the gang. Gives less continuation, less progress.
Lightweight. I've never restarted a gang in a campaign, no matter how badly mauled. Takes the fun out of it.
As for removing other gangers from the campaign, do the Venators get to capture more gangers than usual? After all, you get one at most, if you hold the field at the end, and then the other side gets to do a rescue mission. And once they are sold, that's what the prison break scenario is for.
Losing the leader and having both champions in Recovery with -1T / -1BS / -1W takes the fund out of it. How fun would our 2nd game be? You won the first one, devastated my gang and now you get to rape a small gang consisting of only survivors? I don't get to play more than a handful of games per month. Therefore I insist those games should be of quality. I'd love to have enough games that I can just plough through all the losses.
Which is why you play Necromunda Campaigns with more than one player, you absolute melt.
Sure, someone is gonna get the suspiciously sticky in a different way from the rest of the stick end of the stick - but that's inevitable. At some point, someone is going to be the first gang to take an absolute kicking, and start taking real casualties.
But the balance comes when there's multiple players, so the one lucky enough to have been on the donating end of a ROFLstomp doesn't just continually pick on that same Gang.
It isn't inevitable that they have their gang devastated though.
If the game allows people to be so badly beaten that the rest of the campaign isn't fun anymore then it's a failure of design.
I haven't played the current campaign to say if that's the case or not, but in general there should be mechanisms to help recovery and stop run away success.
Vorian wrote: I haven't played the current campaign to say if that's the case or not, but in general there should be mechanisms to help recovery and stop run away success.
There are ways to do this. One thing is, we have played where if you get so far ahead that there's no way anyone can catch up to you- we just stop. There's no point. Something about denying TFG an obscene lead tends to keep TFG away.
Also, our current Arbitrator has a Venator list (that's actually just the old Enforcers). If a gang gets 'too notorious', they can come in and wreck something.
One particular experience was with me playing TFG. I wasn't too far behind but this guy was not fun to play against. Normally, at a certain reputation level, the Arbitrator's 'gang' had a chance to come in on the mission. At any round of the game. So, I lucked out playing TFG. The Enforcer 'gang' shows up on the second round and I make it a point to duck and hide (I was far back and shooting, anyway). Normally, both gangs would 'team up' to remove this new threat from the table- but I just sat back and let him get slaughtered.
The interesting thing about Necromunda is that it's easy to get 'TFG', but if someone is being 'TFG', it's just as easy to run him off. It's not a perfect gaming system, it's got quite a few exploits and no FAQ to clarify things (that I know of). I don't recommend doing PUG or campaigns with total strangers. The game is best played with friends over beer and pretzels.
For instance, in the private club we have a campaign. We believe 'honor begets honor'. If I capture your ganger, you can buy him back (his gear gets sold on the market, though). I won't coup-de-gras a Champion or Leader. We also allow ONE reroll on the Out-of-Action rolls after the game for the entire phase for the entire gang. We also allow selling items to other gangs (as long as they aren't house specific). It's a friendly campaign, more so because we understand that all of our players don't have the cash to buy more models, only two gangs have weapons upgrades, and some of us are using old models and legacy rules.
In short, Necromunda is a game you'll hate if you're not playing with good people.
At that point you are having to house rule because the game doesn't work.
There are some pretty simple mechanisms to keep everyone equal - limited numbers / gang rating per scenario, upkeep, bonuses to those that are behind (convert gangers to champions if they all die, gain juves/gangers if you fall below certain size, have free hired guns / tactics cards if ratings are hugely different.)
I like being able to do damage to the other guy, I like things to actually happen in the campaign and for it not to be like the A- team and they all get up after the battle.
The rules just need to accommodate that without it ruining the campaign for people (or artificially games mastering stuff).
It is a game that has some stiff penalties for you if you fall behind, and if you get ahead the rewards for doing so make it easy for you to stay ahead.
One rule is with cards, the underdog always gets an extra card or someone with an obscene lead can get only one (or none).
Other fun ideas: "Enemy of my Enemy". Gangs that are significantly far behind one guy can band together to battle him. It kind of makes sense: "I want to kill you, but I could use your help before this gang kills us both".
At risk of being the one to trigger the buckaroo, there are underdog bonuses to get you back on your feet - from scenarios which only use a handful of fighters (or one fighter in the extreme case) so you can let the rest of your fighters recover and avoid taking multiple casualties, to scenarios which give you additional tactics and/or reputation for fighting a gang with a higher crew value or gang rating.
In Baxx's case, I'd do a shootout or the one-on-one knifefight scenario (fair enough, he might not have had access to those if he took that doing before GW3 came out), and bottle out sharpish if it went pear-shaped. Or I'd have done the spook harvest or similar scenarios which give additional readies to recruit new fighters.
I'm not in such a bad state as him, but my Champion with chem-thrower misses every second game and has four serious injuries so far. I had a Blood Bowl team once where six players were missing the next game. That next game, my seven players on the field got thrashed 4-0, but they still put in the appearance.
Underdog gang have more chance to choose scenario which they might want to choose some scenario like ambush, allow them to inflect heavy casualty to the enemies team.
The fact of the matter is, once the leader is out, you can never be at the same competetive level, because the leader is priced so cheap, no other fighter can level-up without a much higher impact on gang rating.
This was not a problem in old Necromunda, because the leader was overpriced. When the leader died, the gang could actually be more competetive because the new leader may have started as a juve who level up to become better than the leader, but with a much lower cost.
Other games like GorkaMorka and old Necromunda had fun ways to motivate to keep handicapped fighters. You had the mad doc which could 'fix' things (for example giving bionic arm when operating a leg injury, or squig brain transplant). Old Necromunda had bionics. Now, once a fighter gets that devastating stat decrease, I just rebuy the fighter. Money is cheap in N17.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AndrewGPaul wrote: I think I'd have bottled out after two out of the three went OOA, unless it all happened in one round.
Wait a minute, my original argument was it's better to restart the gang than playing with crippling injuries. The response was restarting the gang takes the fun out of the gang. Then I said playing a crippled gang with the same gang rating as undamaged gangs takes the fun out of the game. Now you're telling me that instead of restarting the game, you instead Bottle out faster and more often?
Is that really more fun, to play much shorter games at a heavy disadvantage without getting any sort of underdog balancing?
IMO? yes. I don't agree with the sort of play that involves challenging a higher-rating gang then bottling ASAP just to farm the underdog bonus - you've got to try to attempt the mission, at least - but if stuff starts going wrong? Yes, I'll run. If my leader's dead and a Champion has a sucking chest wound, then my one remaining champion is going to throw in the towel. Give it a couple of "side games" and they'll be back. If you're just re-starting the gang at the first sign of trouble, why not just play skirmish mode all the time?
There is underdog compensation, though, isn't there? bonus Reputation or tactics cards, anyway.
Bionics in Necromunda '95 weren't much cop as a balancing mechanism because they were rare. I had a few, but most of my injured gangers just struggled on with the missing body parts.
This isn't me speaking from a position of lofty strength here - my champions have missed as many games as they've been in, I've got a collection of reduced WS and S fighters and I've got a rescue mission to do (thankfully it's only for a ganger). I'm doing my dues at the bottom of the leaderboard.
Vorian wrote: It isn't inevitable that they have their gang devastated though.
If the game allows people to be so badly beaten that the rest of the campaign isn't fun anymore then it's a failure of design.
I haven't played the current campaign to say if that's the case or not, but in general there should be mechanisms to help recovery and stop run away success.
All down to the luck of the dice though, and at least some player skill.
We’ve all had nasty surprises happen to us, and lost a Ganger or three in the first couple of games. That’s not a design flaw, because it’s relatively rare.
If it’s your first game and 50% of your Gang is left pushing up the daisies, then I can understand the reset switch. But if it’s over three or four games? Hazard of the system.
AndrewGPaul wrote: IMO? yes. I don't agree with the sort of play that involves challenging a higher-rating gang then bottling ASAP just to farm the underdog bonus - you've got to try to attempt the mission, at least - but if stuff starts going wrong? Yes, I'll run. If my leader's dead and a Champion has a sucking chest wound, then my one remaining champion is going to throw in the towel. Give it a couple of "side games" and they'll be back. If you're just re-starting the gang at the first sign of trouble, why not just play skirmish mode all the time?
There is underdog compensation, though, isn't there? bonus Reputation or tactics cards, anyway.
Bionics in Necromunda '95 weren't much cop as a balancing mechanism because they were rare. I had a few, but most of my injured gangers just struggled on with the missing body parts.
This isn't me speaking from a position of lofty strength here - my champions have missed as many games as they've been in, I've got a collection of reduced WS and S fighters and I've got a rescue mission to do (thankfully it's only for a ganger). I'm doing my dues at the bottom of the leaderboard.
But you're tweaking it away from the scenario we're discussing! You don't challenge a higher-rating gang. You could very well be the higher rating gang, except you got less Toughness and Wounds than your lower-rating opponent. So good luck trying to attempt the mission with T2 W1 leader/champions. Stuff goes wrong, and your gang rating is not affected by it! If you ever manage to "get back", you'll be at a disadvantage because you now have a higher gang rating for weaker fighters. Which means that again, your opponent could get additional Toughness or Wound level-ups and still be the underdog compared to you.
My motiviation for playing Necromunda is the infinite game, so the finite game of Skirmish mode is not something I care for. Same with Blood Bowl really. I much enjoy leagues over tournaments.
There is no underdog compensation for playing a crippled gang! There is even a punishment for losing your leader, so while you normally would be the underdog, your opponent is receiving the underdog bonuses instead.
Bionics in original Necromunda, 2nd edition and NCE was good motivation to hang on to your crippled fighters. Now there is no such motivation, hence re-buying them.
My brutal Renderizer champion crushed so many enemy fighters. He earned his +1 WS. This would take his cost (and the gang rating) up +30. Next game, he gets karma'd and receives -1WS. Now he is back to base WS, and any further level-ups requires more XP. But my opponent may have +1WS level-up and still not be underdog. The champion is bloated. This is not something that would cause me to restart the gang. This is something I'd fix easily by just paying 150 credits. Now the Champion can level up faster and give less impact on gang rating.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vorian wrote: That's fine if you enjoy it. But a significant number of people will just lose enthusiasm and stop playing the campaign.
The campaign system should always result in games where both people actually have a chance at the start of a game.
I have very little interest of the finite (sub) game that the scenario is, compared to the infinite game of campaign. Remember previous Necromunda? Playing against a much powerful gang was something I enjoyed, even when having little to no chance of winning. Winning the battle is less important than winning the war. The previous underdog system would award you with great amounts of XP for playing stronger gangs, so even if I lost, my gang would get a bunch of level-ups like +1BS, +1WS, +1S, +1W, +1T. You wouldn't need to play many such games before your underdog gang was no longer underdog, but instead equally or more powerful.
All down to the luck of the dice though, and at least some player skill.
We’ve all had nasty surprises happen to us, and lost a Ganger or three in the first couple of games. That’s not a design flaw, because it’s relatively rare.
If it’s your first game and 50% of your Gang is left pushing up the daisies, then I can understand the reset switch. But if it’s over three or four games? Hazard of the system.
I can't help but get the feeling you're commenting on the basis of losing a couple of Gangers or 3. I can replace 2-3 Gangers per game as long as my Champions and Leader survives! I never restart the gang because I lose Gangers, hardly ever even if I lose Champions. Money is so cheap in N17, replacing Gangers is hardly an issue. Losing the leader is not something that is rare, it happens to me frequently.
Some of the bonuses trigger off gang rating, so yes, a high-rating gang full of crippled fighters might be disadvantaged. However, others trigger off crew rating - so it doesn't matter if my gang rating is sky high, if I've only got three models turning up, I'll get that bonus.
Also, you're doing better than I am; enough credits to replace 2-3 gangers per game? I wish! it's taking me slightly over a game to recruit a new ganger. How are you managing to get so much cash while simultaneously having no available champions?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was never keen on relying on bionics to patch up my fighters - they hardly ever appeared at the trading post, so at best they were a way to patch up a leader or a particularly well-favoured ganger, but most of my other crippled fighters just had to do the best they could with a gammy leg and only six fingers.
AndrewGPaul wrote: Some of the bonuses trigger off gang rating, so yes, a high-rating gang full of crippled fighters might be disadvantaged. However, others trigger off crew rating - so it doesn't matter if my gang rating is sky high, if I've only got three models turning up, I'll get that bonus.
Also, you're doing better than I am; enough credits to replace 2-3 gangers per game? I wish! it's taking me slightly over a game to recruit a new ganger. How are you managing to get so much cash while simultaneously having no available champions?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was never keen on relying on bionics to patch up my fighters - they hardly ever appeared at the trading post, so at best they were a way to patch up a leader or a particularly well-favoured ganger, but most of my other crippled fighters just had to do the best they could with a gammy leg and only six fingers.
Are you twisting the case? I got my champions available (specifically stated so in my argument). Fixer skill also helps.
Chaos can earn 4D6x10 credits, their gangers cost 35. Orlock can earn 3D6x10 + 3D3x10.
How are you able to get a bonus based on crew rating? How can your crew not be bloated if your gang is bloated?
Baxx wrote: The more you pile on negative consequences, the more often I re-start the gang. Gives less continuation, less progress.
Lightweight. I've never restarted a gang in a campaign, no matter how badly mauled. Takes the fun out of it.
As for removing other gangers from the campaign, do the Venators get to capture more gangers than usual? After all, you get one at most, if you hold the field at the end, and then the other side gets to do a rescue mission. And once they are sold, that's what the prison break scenario is for.
Losing the leader and having both champions in Recovery with -1T / -1BS / -1W takes the fund out of it. How fun would our 2nd game be? You won the first one, devastated my gang and now you get to rape a small gang consisting of only survivors? I don't get to play more than a handful of games per month. Therefore I insist those games should be of quality. I'd love to have enough games that I can just plough through all the losses.
There are ways around this though
- You play someone else who similarly suffered in the first round of play
- You play a scenario that favours the weaker gang
I do think the classic game is better in this regard and really something the new game needs; the 'giant killer' bonuses you get for the smaller gang, the increased chance of lower gang rating be able to choose a scenario, the fact that all of your gangers can work territories (rather than the 'all eggs in one basket' of only champs/leader), and the moderation through increased cost for larger gangs.
The only time I ever saw a restart with classic Necro was following that custom mission where gangers have to sail around the swamp hunting for the crystal eyes from the swamp-spiders. We didn't play enough terrain and one guy was supremely unlucky and had about 5 gangers fall into the swamp and be insta-killed. But otherwise, even if you get an ass-kicking in a few games the regulatory mechanisms and some careful choice of scenarios should help you back on your feet.
Sure if you have many players to choose from, you can pair up the weakest. Unfortunately I don't have much choice, there's about 2-3 other friends where I live that play Necromunda.
My point was, when you lose the leader, even if you get back on your feet, you'll be at a permanent disadvantage (your opponent will be the underdog while having a more powerful gang). This was not the case before, where losing the leader could make your gang better.
Vorian wrote: Nope, if you are turning up to a game with 0% chance of winning the game is broken.
It is a situation that should have been foreseen and solved before it ever occurred.
If you genuinely see a 0% chance of a win, that’s not the game, but yourself.
I for one do not mind the odd uphill struggle. Just adapt your tactics accordingly. Look to mob individual enemy fighters. Do what you can to get the odds more in your favour. There are no 0% chances of winning. Ever.
After my first game of the cycle, I had my leader, a champion and a ganger left for the next match, after losing my 2nd champ to a stingy doctor and my other 3 fighters were in recovery.
Game 2 was against a full strength Orlock team (hadn't played anyone else yet due to scheduling.)
We rolled for scenario. I got to pick, choose sabotage, and played Metal Gear Solid with my goliaths.
He came close to killing my boss, by we blew up the objective and bolted.
He didn't gain much, just 10 creds and 1xp for all his guys.
On the other hand, I gained a 100 (at 190 now) creds, a bunch of rep, and both my leader and champ have 9xp to spend
And that was 3v10.
Necromunda isn't such a unbalanced game you can't always find a victory for yourself.
Just my 2 cents.
Vorian wrote: Nope, if you are turning up to a game with 0% chance of winning the game is broken.
It is a situation that should have been foreseen and solved before it ever occurred.
If you genuinely see a 0% chance of a win, that’s not the game, but yourself.
I for one do not mind the odd uphill struggle. Just adapt your tactics accordingly. Look to mob individual enemy fighters. Do what you can to get the odds more in your favour. There are no 0% chances of winning. Ever.
Good grief. It might surprise you to learn I didn't literally mean a 0% chance.
Technically there's a non 0% chance I can walk through a wall, that doesn't make for a fun game either.
Those things being imitation Guardian spears is actually pretty clever.
It also means they have seen guardian spears... which means Custodes in the Underhive!
or that imperial propaganda has made its way into the trash for Cawdor to find...
I imagine that they feature in a lot of artwork (especially Ecclesiarchy stuff like stained-glass windows) and mythology. I really like the Cawdor weapons because they fit them so well, and also the idea of Custodes and other Imperial elements (including Space Marines) being these mythical bits of holy lore. I also enjoy when it's made more obvious that the Imperium is not one mind about anything; ie the average citizens don't know the same information we do, and across the Imperium there are wildly different interpretations, myths, methods of worship, and so on.
Vorian wrote: Nope, if you are turning up to a game with 0% chance of winning the game is broken.
It is a situation that should have been foreseen and solved before it ever occurred.
If you genuinely see a 0% chance of a win, that’s not the game, but yourself.
I for one do not mind the odd uphill struggle. Just adapt your tactics accordingly. Look to mob individual enemy fighters. Do what you can to get the odds more in your favour. There are no 0% chances of winning. Ever.
Good grief. It might surprise you to learn I didn't literally mean a 0% chance.
Technically there's a non 0% chance I can walk through a wall, that doesn't make for a fun game either.
Sure. Let's play chess in linked games. I'm an experienced player so I'm generally going to win an equal match - but everytime I win you start the game with one less piece.
How fun are you finding the games when we get down to you having a pawn and a king against my full set of pieces?
There is a point past which games become tedious foregone conclusions.
One of the last games I had was after a serious kicking; I had three models available against a full-strength gang. Totally one-sided, highly unlikely I'd win, but it was fun just seeing if I could take down any of the opposition before I went (as it happens, I didn't, but never mind).
Vorian wrote: Sure. Let's play chess in linked games. I'm an experienced player so I'm generally going to win an equal match - but everytime I win you start the game with one less piece.
How fun are you finding the games when we get down to you having a pawn and a king against my full set of pieces?
There is a point past which games become tedious foregone conclusions.
You play through the scenario as best you can or choose one that minimises your disadvantage. Shootout for an example. Your gangers are going to be out for, what, a game, typically. Besides, nothing is stopping you buying more gangers. The only time I'd say quit and restart is when most of your gang is dead and you are out of credits.
Vorian wrote: Sure. Let's play chess in linked games. I'm an experienced player so I'm generally going to win an equal match - but everytime I win you start the game with one less piece.
How fun are you finding the games when we get down to you having a pawn and a king against my full set of pieces?
There is a point past which games become tedious foregone conclusions.
You play through the scenario as best you can or choose one that minimises your disadvantage. Shootout for an example. Your gangers are going to be out for, what, a game, typically. Besides, nothing is stopping you buying more gangers. The only time I'd say quit and restart is when most of your gang is dead and you are out of credits.
Yes, also you should not rule out using a tiles scenario if you're CC/melee orientated and on the lower rung.
Vorian wrote: Nope, if you are turning up to a game with 0% chance of winning the game is broken.
It is a situation that should have been foreseen and solved before it ever occurred.
And sometimes life isn’t fair....wait, life just isn’t fair ever. I tell my kids that, the freaking Navy Seals are taught that. Even in a perfect world your not always guaranteed a perfect shake. You play with the hand dealt to you, if you win, Great. if you lose, lose with class and style. If you show up to a game you don’t have a chance of winning, then change the game. You might not walk away with anything, but if you create your own purpose for the game (take out one of his guys before your gang bottles), then you can still achieve a goal wether it affects your game or not.
There were people in our group no one wanted to play, open gaming group at our old FLGS, and everyone whined when they played against the WAAC guys. I just took the mentality of a real life situation where your gang got ambushed when short handed and making it out alive was important, but the gang leader (or guy filling in) wanted to make sure the other guy knew he was in a fight.
Talk to the members of the group. If anyone’s gang gets brutalized so bad then they get XXX credits influx as one of the larger gangs back them because they don’t want to lose what little influence they have in the area. Keep track of this influx as at the end of your campaign those credits have to be paid back before totals are tallied. (Have everyone decide if there’s interest involved too). Set loan minimums, have them take out loans in chunks of 100k, but not more than what would bump them over their opponent.
Vorian wrote: Nope, if you are turning up to a game with 0% chance of winning the game is broken.
It is a situation that should have been foreseen and solved before it ever occurred.
And sometimes life isn’t fair....wait, life just isn’t fair ever. I tell my kids that, the freaking Navy Seals are taught that. Even in a perfect world your not always guaranteed a perfect shake. You play with the hand dealt to you, if you win, Great. if you lose, lose with class and style. If you show up to a game you don’t have a chance of winning, then change the game. You might not walk away with anything, but if you create your own purpose for the game (take out one of his guys before your gang bottles), then you can still achieve a goal wether it affects your game or not.
There were people in our group no one wanted to play, open gaming group at our old FLGS, and everyone whined when they played against the WAAC guys. I just took the mentality of a real life situation where your gang got ambushed when short handed and making it out alive was important, but the gang leader (or guy filling in) wanted to make sure the other guy knew he was in a fight.
Talk to the members of the group. If anyone’s gang gets brutalized so bad then they get XXX credits influx as one of the larger gangs back them because they don’t want to lose what little influence they have in the area. Keep track of this influx as at the end of your campaign those credits have to be paid back before totals are tallied. (Have everyone decide if there’s interest involved too). Set loan minimums, have them take out loans in chunks of 100k, but not more than what would bump them over their opponent.
You could also take it way further and start backstabing and back ally dealing with other players if people start getting ahead.
head hunting, bounties and the like would be hilarious fun.
but i guess some people may get salty when that kinda stuff happens even though it makes sense in game.
Vorian wrote: Nope, if you are turning up to a game with 0% chance of winning the game is broken.
It is a situation that should have been foreseen and solved before it ever occurred.
And sometimes life isn’t fair....wait, life just isn’t fair ever. I tell my kids that, the freaking Navy Seals are taught that. Even in a perfect world your not always guaranteed a perfect shake. You play with the hand dealt to you, if you win, Great. if you lose, lose with class and style. If you show up to a game you don’t have a chance of winning, then change the game. You might not walk away with anything, but if you create your own purpose for the game (take out one of his guys before your gang bottles), then you can still achieve a goal wether it affects your game or not.
There were people in our group no one wanted to play, open gaming group at our old FLGS, and everyone whined when they played against the WAAC guys. I just took the mentality of a real life situation where your gang got ambushed when short handed and making it out alive was important, but the gang leader (or guy filling in) wanted to make sure the other guy knew he was in a fight.
Talk to the members of the group. If anyone’s gang gets brutalized so bad then they get XXX credits influx as one of the larger gangs back them because they don’t want to lose what little influence they have in the area. Keep track of this influx as at the end of your campaign those credits have to be paid back before totals are tallied. (Have everyone decide if there’s interest involved too). Set loan minimums, have them take out loans in chunks of 100k, but not more than what would bump them over their opponent.
You could also take it way further and start backstabing and back ally dealing with other players if people start getting ahead.
head hunting, bounties and the like would be hilarious fun.
but i guess some people may get salty when that kinda stuff happens even though it makes sense in game.
Allowed or not that stuff happened. Allegiances forged and broken.
Vorian wrote: Sure. Let's play chess in linked games. I'm an experienced player so I'm generally going to win an equal match - but everytime I win you start the game with one less piece.
How fun are you finding the games when we get down to you having a pawn and a king against my full set of pieces?
There is a point past which games become tedious foregone conclusions.
Oh, you misunderstand, that's not how Necromunda works (or how it did work or should work rather). You may have a team of towers against my team of pawns. But for every game, one of my pawn is level-upped to a queen.
The result of a single game is nothing compared to the fate of the gang!
Vorian wrote: Sure. Let's play chess in linked games. I'm an experienced player so I'm generally going to win an equal match - but everytime I win you start the game with one less piece.
How fun are you finding the games when we get down to you having a pawn and a king against my full set of pieces?
There is a point past which games become tedious foregone conclusions.
Oh, you misunderstand, that's not how Necromunda works (or how it did work or should work rather). You may have a team of towers against my team of pawns. But for every game, one of my pawn is level-upped to a queen.
The result of a single game is nothing compared to the fate of the gang!
infinite game > finite game
This. All of this.
Anyone interested in "fair" and equal matchups shouldn't be playing a campaign format. They particularly shouldn't be playing a campaign format GW game because HAHAHAHA.
I've been playing these kinds of things since the early 90s. Hell, original Talisman was BRUTAL. High level character you've built up over the previous three hours? Literally one turn away from the Crown of Command? Turn over that alternative ending card aaaaaaand...! Horrible black void. Dead. No save. Lose all your items. Out of the game.
I mean, here's the thing: I love playing Necromunda/Mordheim/Blood Bowl, etc. I'm also terrible at playing them. These two things can be mutually exclusive. I do pretty badly almost all of the time. But I have enormous fun playing regardless. I really don't understand why anyone would go into these games with the preconceived notion that there's some sacred balance to be found. That would make even my experience, an inveterate loser of literally thousands and thousands of games, so utterly boring.
I realise it's rumbled on for quite a while, but the topic was how a campaign system should have mechanics to stop unfair games. Pointing out that there are different scenarios or a campaign system to affect the balance is the whole point.
If anyone thinks mechanics where you entrench extreme unfairness is any kind of good idea then we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
A player should be able to lose 5 games in a row and go into a game against someone that's won 5 games in a row with a reasonable chance of winning.
They can be miles behind in the campaign, no issue with that, but the mechanics should be sufficient to deliver a game with unequal sides that is fun for not players and never allows 1 pawn and one king vs full set games. (which I also wasn't claiming N17 to do).
It's not about reasonable chance of winning - at all. It never has been, and it certainly ain't now.
Playing a game without reasonable chance of winning can be extremely fun when you reap the rewards. It's all about the evolution of the gang, not the outcome of a single game! I would rather lose a game than suffer -1T on my leader! And the opposite is true too, I'd rather get +1T on my leader than win a game.
Baxx wrote: Sorry, that's just not how necromunda works.
It's not about reasonable chance of winning - at all. It never has been, and it certainly ain't now.
Playing a game without reasonable chance of winning can be extremely fun when you reap the rewards. It's all about the evolution of the gang, not the outcome of a single game! I would rather lose a game than suffer -1T on my leader! And the opposite is true too, I'd rather get +1T on my leader than win a game.
Sure, you've just made up a completely different argument to disagree about. That doesn't relate to what I said.
Vorian wrote: If anyone thinks mechanics where you entrench extreme unfairness is any kind of good idea then we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
I think gamers are overly obsessed with the concept of "fairness". GW has shown, repeatedly, that matched play and the appearance of fairness isn't how they think their games should be played. They go out of their way to make open play their preferred way of showing off the games, and spend a lot of effort to make these games interesting to both players, win or lose. Necromunda perhaps exemplifies this approach to wargaming the best, as it isn't a game about winning. It's a game about experiences. Winning is a goal, not the point.
A player should be able to lose 5 games in a row and go into a game against someone that's won 5 games in a row with a reasonable chance of winning.
Winning? No. But getting something out of the game, yes. Necromunda is a game that rewards losers too, and I think it even says in the manual that sometimes, your best option is to escape from a match with minimal causalities.
They can be miles behind in the campaign, no issue with that, but the mechanics should be sufficient to deliver a game with unequal sides that is fun for not players and never allows 1 pawn and one king vs full set games. (which I also wasn't claiming N17 to do).
Vorian wrote: Having a non tedious time, where you have a realistic opportunity to actually achieve something more than be stomped into oblivion.
Winning is just a short hand for "not losing terribly".
In the real world there is no fairness. Think of the Iraqi troops that fought against desert shield/storm. They had to play, no chance of winning, and took a kicking. Their campaign ended, it wasn’t a fair fight. Should the coalition have only sent in the same number of troops as Iraq? Or should it have been troops with only the same training level as the Iraqi troops? Nope, we wanted to win and we sent it all...and then some.
If you don’t want to play the game, then don’t, to me it’s not always about winning (which seems to be the only thing your after as you keep mentioning it), but learning about my opponent and trying to decipher what sort of strategy they are employing and how to counter it. I’m there for friendship and fun, and if I get to brag a big at the end of the day GREAT, but in a losing situation hopefully I can say “I gave it my best, and the bully got a bloody nose.”
Does the new game not have underdog and giant killer bonuses? I loved the original Necromunda and have been thinking about picking up the new game but honestly without those features a campaign would be a total waste of time unless the new game functions *totally* different than the old. Those features kept the game balanced during a campaign as even after a terrible battle where you lost a lot of people and had no credits you could leverage the exp and credit bonus you would get from future games to rebuild your gang.
Unfortunately no, GW has fumbled a lot of campaign mechanics lately. It was horrendous in Shadow War Armageddon. It is interesting in N17, but missing this cruicial part. The new campaign is different in many ways, but would benefit greatly from the underdog system of old. Now, an underdog would be more likely to choose scenario (and choose to be the attacker) as well as some scenarios give additional cards to the underdog.
You souldn't wait any longer, start playing now, because the game is really fun and at this point, rich with content. Some parts are not so good at the momeny (juves, leveling up juves, missing underdog system ++), but the game as a whole is great.
Vorian wrote: Having a non tedious time, where you have a realistic opportunity to actually achieve something more than be stomped into oblivion.
Winning is just a short hand for "not losing terribly".
In the real world there is no fairness. Think of the Iraqi troops that fought against desert shield/storm. They had to play, no chance of winning, and took a kicking. Their campaign ended, it wasn’t a fair fight. Should the coalition have only sent in the same number of troops as Iraq? Or should it have been troops with only the same training level as the Iraqi troops? Nope, we wanted to win and we sent it all...and then some.
If you don’t want to play the game, then don’t, to me it’s not always about winning (which seems to be the only thing your after as you keep mentioning it), but learning about my opponent and trying to decipher what sort of strategy they are employing and how to counter it. I’m there for friendship and fun, and if I get to brag a big at the end of the day GREAT, but in a losing situation hopefully I can say “I gave it my best, and the bully got a bloody nose.”
In that analogy, what do you think your chances of getting Iraq to play next time are?
In the real world we can't make up excuses to invade the other person's house and force them to play.
A game is about meaningful choices, if the starting conditions are so out of balance that one side has no meaningful choices to make then it's just not a fun game for that person.
This is also not the same as not allowing asymetric starting conditions. Say, the Alamo, Rourkes Drift, Thermopylae... a scenario like those is unequal but still gives the weaker side meaningful choices.
Having the Alamo assaulted by the modern US army would not. A game should stop campaigns serving up games like that.
hobojebus wrote: I'd think we could all agree setting your models up just to get stomped is not fun.
I don't like games where I steamroll the other guy either.
I want as close to 50/50 as possible so player skill actually matters.
Necromunda isn't really a game about testing your skill. It's a game about telling stories. I have gladly set up many a game where I knew I would get steamrolled because I knew the story it would add to our campaign would be awesome and re-told many a time. Like that time I did a rescue mission to get a gang member back from an opposing gang, and my opponent only had a single sentry stood upon a tower guarding the prisoner. As expected I took him out easily, at which point he fell off the tower to his doom... only to use his last breath to sound the alarm, bringing all his mates onto the table and making my expected cakewalk of a Rescue mission an unmitigated disaster. Having every game be "as close to 50/50 a possible" would make it a completely different game and that story would never have happened. If you want that, I recommend Shadespire.
I agree with the second half of your last sentence, but not the first half. Balance and a progressive campaign go against one another, IMO. The very nature of a narrative progression like Necromunda is that someties, one side will be more powerful than the other. Now, the rewards should perhaps favour the underdog, but I'm not sure I like the idea of the [I]scenario[/] favouring the underdog. If that's the case, there's no point to bothering with an experience/advancement system.
hobojebus wrote: I'd think we could all agree setting your models up just to get stomped is not fun.
I don't like games where I steamroll the other guy either.
I want as close to 50/50 as possible so player skill actually matters.
Necromunda isn't really a game about testing your skill. It's a game about telling stories. I have gladly set up many a game where I knew I would get steamrolled because I knew the story it would add to our campaign would be awesome and re-told many a time. Like that time I did a rescue mission to get a gang member back from an opposing gang, and my opponent only had a single sentry stood upon a tower guarding the prisoner. As expected I took him out easily, at which point he fell off the tower to his doom... only to use his last breath to sound the alarm, bringing all his mates onto the table and making my expected cakewalk of a Rescue mission an unmitigated disaster. Having every game be "as close to 50/50 a possible" would make it a completely different game and that story would never have happened. If you want that, I recommend Shadespire.
Sure, but in this case the defender had options. He could raise the alarm and then he could make decisions about what to do with the reinforcements.
If he had deployed all his guys at the start and you'd shot them all before his turn then... not a great story.
Andrew, you absolutely can ensure fair games in a campaign system - necromunda even has some of these mechanisms such as limited size scenarios, and there's lots of other things you can do.
In the past campaigns of old Necromunda when one gang became to powerful they had to face the Arbites or Genestealers outbreak. This was one of our groups ways to balance the playing field. Another was to retire a really successful gang as they moved up hive to a better life. Retirement was considered a great victory and you would then start a new gang at the bottom of the pack.
Our group really enjoyed the narrative and the story the game told. This is what made it such an amazing game.
I have a lot of great memories of those campaigns.
hobojebus wrote: I'd think we could all agree setting your models up just to get stomped is not fun.
I don't like games where I steamroll the other guy either.
I want as close to 50/50 as possible so player skill actually matters.
Necromunda isn't really a game about testing your skill. It's a game about telling stories. I have gladly set up many a game where I knew I would get steamrolled because I knew the story it would add to our campaign would be awesome and re-told many a time. Like that time I did a rescue mission to get a gang member back from an opposing gang, and my opponent only had a single sentry stood upon a tower guarding the prisoner. As expected I took him out easily, at which point he fell off the tower to his doom... only to use his last breath to sound the alarm, bringing all his mates onto the table and making my expected cakewalk of a Rescue mission an unmitigated disaster. Having every game be "as close to 50/50 a possible" would make it a completely different game and that story would never have happened. If you want that, I recommend Shadespire.
Sure, but in this case the defender had options. He could raise the alarm and then he could make decisions about what to do with the reinforcements.
If he had deployed all his guys at the start and you'd shot them all before his turn then... not a great story.
Andrew, you absolutely can ensure fair games in a campaign system - necromunda even has some of these mechanisms such as limited size scenarios, and there's lots of other things you can do.
The alarm was a 4+ roll, so he didn't really have a choice. And that was after he miraculously survived a long fall. There was a 50% chance the game could've ended right then and there, but that's part of the fun.
A game is about meaningful choices, if the starting conditions are so out of balance that one side has no meaningful choices to make then it's just not a fun game for that person.
Sorry I just have to disagree. This is not the case with necromunda and never has been the case. You're looking for games like Warmachine & Hordes. This is something completely different.
Vorian wrote: A game should stop campaigns serving up games like that.
On the contrary, the game shouldn't stop this in campaigns at all. It is a very nice situation to be in.
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AndrewGPaul wrote: Now, the rewards should perhaps favour the underdog, but I'm not sure I like the idea of the [I]scenario[/] favouring the underdog. If that's the case, there's no point to bothering with an experience/advancement system.
Why is there no point? In my view, experience/advancement is the main point.
Andrew, you absolutely can ensure fair games in a campaign system - necromunda even has some of these mechanisms such as limited size scenarios, and there's lots of other things you can do.
To an extent; but even limiting crew numbers doesn't help if all my guys are starting gangers and all yours are tooled-up veterans. The tactics cards help, and feel appropriate (at least when the underdog is the attacker); they know they can't win a fair fight, so they arrange an unfair one.
The Judge Dredd Miniatures Game had a very simple balance mechanism; the underdog got bonus cash to the value of the difference in ratings to spend on one-off reinforcements. Fine for gameplay, but it does diminish the achievement of having advanced your gang if the other guy gets to do the same thing for free.
Sure, so it's not two completely mismatched gangs, its a scenario where the mechanism to make it interesting was unlikely due to luck and not really player agency (from the random rolling for sentry numbers?).
Now, we could discuss the sentry mechanism and if it gave the defending player enough to do as a completely different subject, but this is scenario design. It can be done well so that this scenario is interesting even for hugely mismatched gangs. Using asymetric sides - which is cool.
Side 1 starts with X gang members
Side 2 starts with Y gang members
if side 1 achieves something they get Z members per turn. Obviously if both player 1 and 2 can effect this then it's more interesting for both players.
The Judge Dredd Miniatures Game had a very simple balance mechanism; the underdog got bonus cash to the value of the difference in ratings to spend on one-off reinforcements. Fine for gameplay, but it does diminish the achievement of having advanced your gang if the other guy gets to do the same thing for free.
There is a similar mechanism in Blood Bowl, but it doesn't diminish the achievement of having advanced your team. It just gives more balance to the game.
Andrew, you absolutely can ensure fair games in a campaign system - necromunda even has some of these mechanisms such as limited size scenarios, and there's lots of other things you can do.
To an extent; but even limiting crew numbers doesn't help if all my guys are starting gangers and all yours are tooled-up veterans. The tactics cards help, and feel appropriate (at least when the underdog is the attacker); they know they can't win a fair fight, so they arrange an unfair one.
The Judge Dredd Miniatures Game had a very simple balance mechanism; the underdog got bonus cash to the value of the difference in ratings to spend on one-off reinforcements. Fine for gameplay, but it does diminish the achievement of having advanced your gang if the other guy gets to do the same thing for free.
Yup, limiting numbers isn't going to make for a perfect game, its just one way you can stop extreme mismatches.
You can have inducements based on gang ratings, thats another fine mechanism. I played in a,campaign with that and it worked well. Obviously you need to make sure the stuff you're getting for free doesn't perform amazingly for the gang rating it costs or everyone will suppress their rating to be stronger!
You can also have economic boosts and penalties to help bunch gangs in the middle. Old Necromunda used to do this by decreasing profit based upon gang size, so the bigger you got the less you made. You could give free stuff to gangs that had got a hiding and were miles behind too (essentially what underdog bonus was) . It could have been fine tuned to be work much better than it did of course.
But there's lots of things, theres no reason you couldn't have infinitely running campaigns that didn't need you to retire gangs.
