p5freak wrote:

torblind wrote:

On it's core it's designed not to scale.

In a 1000 pt game it's solid. On a 2000 pt game he is bringing enough firepower to clear your units one at a time and you never get a single roll.

Not really. It does scale. In a 1000 pts game you dont have as many units, or as many models. Less models, less dice to reanimate. Same with your opponent, he only has half the firepower compared to 2000 pts. Twice the firepower against twice as many models to reanimate at 2k.

A 20 man unit of warriors is a 20 man unit of warriors in a 1000 point game or a 2000 point game, but in the 2000 point game it's a hell of a lot easier to kill 20 warriors in one round. That's why RP doesn't scale.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

A 20 man unit of warriors is a 20 man unit of warriors in a 1000 point game or a 2000 point game, but in the 2000 point game it's a hell of a lot easier to kill 20 warriors in one round. That's why RP doesn't scale.

In a 2k game you have 2 or even 3 units of 20 warriors.

 p5freak wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

A 20 man unit of warriors is a 20 man unit of warriors in a 1000 point game or a 2000 point game, but in the 2000 point game it's a hell of a lot easier to kill 20 warriors in one round. That's why RP doesn't scale.

In a 2k game you have 2 or even 3 units of 20 warriors.

Of course,

but then enemy killed all warriors in the first squad, and that RP roll is now a daed weight. However the Necron still pays for that in their warrior price.

 p5freak wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

A 20 man unit of warriors is a 20 man unit of warriors in a 1000 point game or a 2000 point game, but in the 2000 point game it's a hell of a lot easier to kill 20 warriors in one round. That's why RP doesn't scale.

In a 2k game you have 2 or even 3 units of 20 warriors.

The additional units don't prevent the first unit from getting wiped more easily, losing its RP.

The scaling issue of RP is with defence, not offence

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Of course,

but then enemy killed all warriors in the first squad, and that RP roll is now a daed weight. However the Necron still pays for that in their warrior price.

You are paying 1 pt. for RP for every warrior. Thats like for free. Compare the stats of a warrior to a space marine or scout, they are pretty much the same. Warriors are a bit worse in some stats, but they have a better gun. A space marine is 13, scout is 11 and warrior is 12.

 p5freak wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Of course,

but then enemy killed all warriors in the first squad, and that RP roll is now a daed weight. However the Necron still pays for that in their warrior price.

You are paying 1 pt. for RP for every warrior. Thats like for free. Compare the stats of a warrior to a space marine or scout, they are pretty much the same. Warriors are a bit worse in some stats, but they have a better gun. A space marine is 13, scout is 11 and warrior is 12.

It's more than point cost for an isolated unit.

SM have Transports
SM have better character auras
SM have this and that, in which each unit is a cog in a machinery.

Necrons have RP to withstand that which SM have to throw at them. RP doesn't scale and has unfavorable game mechanics. RP may or may not have been intended as a strong defining army ability, it most likely is, and as such it has apparent flaws.

I didn't even realise RP scaling or not was up for debate, it clearly doesn't scale and hamstrings the army to quite a large extent. At best? It sucks. Except when your opponent messes up and fails to kill the last model in a squad, I have to admit it's awesome then. But it's not good for an army to base its strengths around your opponents mistakes or bad luck. With DG, for example, it doesn't matter what you do or how you target them, they always get their 5+++, you can't 'nullify' that, nor should you be able to.

 p5freak wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:

Of course,

but then enemy killed all warriors in the first squad, and that RP roll is now a daed weight. However the Necron still pays for that in their warrior price.

You are paying 1 pt. for RP for every warrior. Thats like for free. Compare the stats of a warrior to a space marine or scout, they are pretty much the same. Warriors are a bit worse in some stats, but they have a better gun. A space marine is 13, scout is 11 and warrior is 12.

I play both Space Marines and Necrons. And I've been shouting that marines are overpriced a lot, imo Battle Brother marines should be 10-11pts and Scouts be 9-10pts.

But that is not the topic here. We are talking about the usefulness of Reanimation Protocols. This rule, while revert back to be similar to what it was in the old and really fluffy rather than the OP super FnP, which I welcome this change. But it did lose on the timing of activation. Had it been able to activate on the end of enemy shooting and assault phases rather than "at the beginning of your turn". It will be much more useful and Necrons will still be the icon of undying on the tabletop.

The more I think about it, the more I feel like it is the restricted moment of activation of this rule that making it awful. If it is allowed to activate at the end of enemy shooting and each combat phase like the pre 5th edition. It would be awesome. Hell, even if it is activated at the end of the Necron movement phase it would be much better than "at the beginning of the Necron turn". It is THE moment that you cannot react to the units that have taken heavy casauties.

For example, a squad of Immortals that is 5" away from any of the Cryptek had been shoot and chop by the enemy, leaving only 3 guys standing, sorry, you are too far from the buff characters, you only RP on 5s, and enemy will destroy the rest of guys next turn. Want to move the Cryptek into range? sorry, by when the time for reanimation is over, wait for next turn to get buff, I bet you won't survive by then.

If the time for RP is changed to "at the end of (or during) the Necron movement, then we could have the buff characters like Cryptek or Overlord with Res Orb to move into range to rescue those severely depleted units.

As of now if the Necron player want to buff and ultilize their special rules (RP and MWBD), they need to form a gaint blob around their Overlord and Cryptek any time. More often than not it is hard to keep in this distance of 3" to 6" due to terrains placed on the table so the Necron army will likely become a lumbering unwieldy Phalanx.

DG has their DR built in like necrons have RP. If you delete the DG unit he cant use DR, just like necrons cant use RP.

 p5freak wrote:
DG has their DR built in like necrons have RP. If you delete the DG unit he cant use DR, just like necrons cant use RP.

That's... that's not true dude

 p5freak wrote:
DG has their DR built in like necrons have RP. If you delete the DG unit he cant use DR, just like necrons cant use RP.

Are you just trolling by now?

Deal 10 unsaved wounds to a unit of 10 DG, they get their 10 5+++ rolls

Deal 10 unsaved wounds to a unit of 10 necron warriors, they get 0 RP Rolls.

I can live in a world where i have to pay 1 point for RP on every model. But we have too much overcosted stuff IMO.

Flayed ones 17 pts. Compare them to harlequins
Doom scythe cost more than DE flyer, while having less durability and firepower
Monolith 381 point. Can't move after disembarking. Disembarking on your deploy turn 1... what?

Even DDA that is considered good unit for me is worse than ravager. I would take 3 ravagers over 2 DDA, which cost the same.

Which units are fairly priced /playable in your opinion?

I start with my summary :

Good : Destroyers, Vault
Average : Immortals , Tomb Blades , DDA
Below average : not to sound pessimistic , but everything else feels from overcosted (Annihilation Barge) to absurdly overcosted (Mono/Scythes)

In the age of Guard/Space Elves/Nids i feel like we are on the bottom end of things , not the worst but certainly not at the top of stuff

Slashy McTalons wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DG has their DR built in like necrons have RP. If you delete the DG unit he cant use DR, just like necrons cant use RP.

That's... that's not true dude

It is true. When the unit is wiped from the battlefield he cant use DR anymore.

torblind wrote:

Deal 10 unsaved wounds to a unit of 10 DG, they get their 10 5+++ rolls

Deal 10 unsaved wounds to a unit of 10 necron warriors, they get 0 RP Rolls.

Yes. If one DG model remains he has 1 DR. If one necron models remains you have 9 RP.

Biasn wrote:
Which units are fairly priced /playable in your opinion?

I start with my summary :

Good : Destroyers, Vault
Average : Immortals , Tomb Blades , DDA
Below average : not to sound pessimistic , but everything else feels from overcosted (Annihilation Barge) to absurdly overcosted (Mono/Scythes)

In the age of Guard/Space Elves/Nids i feel like we are on the bottom end of things , not the worst but certainly not at the top of stuff

The very first post in this thread has a list which units are good, and which are not.

And you are exactly agreeing with all the statements of the first post?

Biasn wrote:
And you are exactly agreeing with all the statements of the first post?

I agree with most of it. To me the best units are wraiths, destroyers, DDAs, tesla immortals, scarabs, crypteks, overlords. Followed by destroyer lord, command barge, gauss tomb blades.

 p5freak wrote:

Slashy McTalons wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DG has their DR built in like necrons have RP. If you delete the DG unit he cant use DR, just like necrons cant use RP.

That's... that's not true dude

It is true. When the unit is wiped from the battlefield he cant use DR anymore.

That's completely missing the point. If the unit is wiped in one go you do get to roll for DR, but you don't get to roll for RP. Hence, they do not function the same, and RP can be bypassed completely whereas DR can't. Once the unit is destroyed DR no longer functions... yeah, so what? What does that have to do with anything?

 p5freak wrote:

torblind wrote:

Deal 10 unsaved wounds to a unit of 10 DG, they get their 10 5+++ rolls

Deal 10 unsaved wounds to a unit of 10 necron warriors, they get 0 RP Rolls.

Yes. If one DG model remains he has 1 DR. If one necron models remains you have 9 RP.
.

You're trying to twist it to make the necrons sound like they got a better deal here, by omitting the fact that the DG models already got to make their 9 DR saves, when they suffered the wounds. DG always get to roll for DR, wheras RP can be bypassed completely. That's the point.

I was more pointing at the playability of units in comparisson to say like good codice (Guard/Drukhari etc). Internally the summary might be correct.

 p5freak wrote:

Slashy McTalons wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
DG has their DR built in like necrons have RP. If you delete the DG unit he cant use DR, just like necrons cant use RP.

That's... that's not true dude

It is true. When the unit is wiped from the battlefield he cant use DR anymore.

torblind wrote:

Deal 10 unsaved wounds to a unit of 10 DG, they get their 10 5+++ rolls

Deal 10 unsaved wounds to a unit of 10 necron warriors, they get 0 RP Rolls.

Yes. If one DG model remains he has 1 DR. If one necron models remains you have 9 RP.

Biasn wrote:
Which units are fairly priced /playable in your opinion?

I start with my summary :

Good : Destroyers, Vault
Average : Immortals , Tomb Blades , DDA
Below average : not to sound pessimistic , but everything else feels from overcosted (Annihilation Barge) to absurdly overcosted (Mono/Scythes)

In the age of Guard/Space Elves/Nids i feel like we are on the bottom end of things , not the worst but certainly not at the top of stuff

The very first post in this thread has a list which units are good, and which are not.

You are missing the point though. Because the DG get they're 5+++ after every wound suffered. This means they get the save immediately. Reanimation is only done at the start of the necron player turn and it can only be activated if at least1 model survives. If the entire unit is wiped then they do not get the rule at all. This is why the fact that it is built in makes reanimation worse and easier to negate at higher points costs games.

Let me put it this way:

Let's compare Plague Marines to Immortals. They're both being shot with an Assault Cannon (S6 AP-1 D1) hitting on 3s.

It takes (10*2*(3/2)*(3/2)) 45 shots to kill the Immortals.
It takes (10*(3/2)*2*(3/2)*(3/2)) 67.5 shots to kill the Plague Marines.

If you fire 45 shots into the Immortals, they are wiped and cannot Reanimate.
If you fire 45 shots into the Plague Marines, there are around 3 left standing.

In a 500 point list, you'll struggle to field 45 Assault Cannon shots.
In a 1k list, it's easier.
In a 2k list, it's even easier.

Does that make sense?

Ok, makes sense.

Biasn wrote:
Which units are fairly priced /playable in your opinion?

I start with my summary :

Good : Destroyers, Vault
Average : Immortals , Tomb Blades , DDA
Below average : not to sound pessimistic , but everything else feels from overcosted (Annihilation Barge) to absurdly overcosted (Mono/Scythes)

In the age of Guard/Space Elves/Nids i feel like we are on the bottom end of things , not the worst but certainly not at the top of stuff

I agree with this more or less although I'd say Tomb Blades are appropriately costed roughly, if only because in my opinion they're the best unit in the codex (yes, that includes destroyers)

Immortals are kind of a tricky one because I'd say Tesla Immortals are almost priced appropriately; the issue is more that Gauss is worthless on them and either needs to be reduced in points or buffed in some fashion (range increase perhaps?)

I think some people might be missing the point on RP at higher points level, yes at 1000 point massed bricks of warriors are a good deal but when you go higher in points your whole army comp ends to change. Bare in mind 20 warriors weigh in at 260 points, a fair investment at low points due to their durability thanks to RP.

At over 1,000 points though if you use just warrior bricks to fill out the mandatory slots for a battalion that's 780 points even at 2k that's almost half your points sunk into troops. I don;t think ANY other army even attempts this, why should we?

Instead consider that at 2k points RP makes small units of immortals a right pain to deal with. Nuking 20 warriors to prevent RP kicking in is worth overkill, its not worth risking overkill to wipe 5 immortals, so people tend to undershoot allowing small immortal squads to hang around well past what should have been their expiry.

I mean by all means correct me if i'm wrong anyone can estimate the maths in shots required to wipe 5 immortals, but if your dice roll even slightly under that 1 surviving immortal could be 5 next turn. At 1 point per model for the RP rule, if it brings back a single immortal it has paid for itself.

I'm starting to think our infantry isn't really worth taking. Tomb blades are just so much better. For the same cost as two immortals we get a unit that is quick like a bunny, more damaging due to their ability to use gauss and mephrit without the risk of getting stuck in combat, and durable enough to regularly get the benefit of RP that our troops have to pay for but hardly ever get to use. The fact that we can pay little more to give them invulnerable saves just feels like gravy.

It costs a couple CP but I'm starting to think it might be worth it. Am I missing something here? Well, other than how tedious putting 2-3 units of tomb blades together is?

Edit
never mind about costing CP. Just fooled around on battlescribe and managed to get all the essentials (3XDDA, 1X6Destroyers) two full squads of TB and a batalion just fine. Min squads of immortals but I got my CP and the army doesn't look like a trainwreck. Could go down to two DDA and get some scarabs or wraiths in there. Dunno if I would need that though. TB don't really need a screen and the immortals could probably be made to serve that purpose well enough for the DDA. Might consider a Nightbringer though. He could run up behind the TB...

Yeah I'd say Tomb Blades are one of the least fun models to out together for the army after Triarch Stalkers. Holy hell those two were a pain.

I'd think long and hard before giving up 10 Tesla immortals with MWBD for GEQ clearing (and genestealers)

I've stopped using troops and battallions almost entirely. The biggest misconception and poisonous idea among Necron players right now is that we need big blocks of infantry for RP and that we are a CP hungry army. We are not. My 1.5-2k point lists are just outrider and spearhead detachments. My only cp usage is on destroyers and the odd re-roll. Since I made this change and started to play the army like this my winrate has shot up and I'm even able to fight more evenly with stronger, more competitive armies and certain units which before were absolute pains to deal with (daemon princes, flyrants etc) are now much easier to deal with. By not taking battallions or troops you stop yourself from paying too many points for substandard HQ units and troops units and can focus on the units in the codex that can actually do things.

Bosskelot wrote:
I've stopped using troops and battallions almost entirely. The biggest misconception and poisonous idea among Necron players right now is that we need big blocks of infantry for RP and that we are a CP hungry army. We are not. My 1.5-2k point lists are just outrider and spearhead detachments. My only cp usage is on destroyers and the odd re-roll. Since I made this change and started to play the army like this my winrate has shot up and I'm even able to fight more evenly with stronger, more competitive armies and certain units which before were absolute pains to deal with (daemon princes, flyrants etc) are now much easier to deal with. By not taking battallions or troops you stop yourself from paying too many points for substandard HQ units and troops units and can focus on the units in the codex that can actually do things.

I think you're right. Fooled around some more and got a list with a bunch of wraiths, a few scarabs, and a Nightbringer inside two outriders. Had to take some particle beamers on some of my TB but it looked like a lot meaner list and they can be the first casualties anyway. Only 5 CP though. But if I'm just using that for destroyers like you say that could be enough. Can't wait to try out some variations on this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah I'd say Tomb Blades are one of the least fun models to out together for the army after Triarch Stalkers. Holy hell those two were a pain.

Good god yes. I love the army but we get some of the hardest models to build and paint. DDA are probably my least favorite so far. And cockpits are everywhere. Hell, that's all a TB is XD

Bosskelot wrote:
I've stopped using troops and battallions almost entirely. The biggest misconception and poisonous idea among Necron players right now is that we need big blocks of infantry for RP and that we are a CP hungry army. We are not. My 1.5-2k point lists are just outrider and spearhead detachments.

I agree with you. The last game I played, my friend used my Necrons, and someone commented of the report that his list 'sucked' cos he didn't take big max size blocks of troops to maximise RP. Now it's true wasn't a great list anyway cos we played a big game and he had to pad it out, but I took issue with the idea that Crons should think about RP at all really. I see it as 'throwing good money after bad'. RP is already crappy so doubling down and buying meh troops to try and make it work just seems illogical. Forget RP and if you ever get to make a roll, look at it as a free bonus.

I do like the idea of a cloaktek following 6 Wraiths and then using the 2CP strat to res them on a 4+ if they get whittled down, though.

Merkabah wrote:

Bosskelot wrote:
I've stopped using troops and battallions almost entirely. The biggest misconception and poisonous idea among Necron players right now is that we need big blocks of infantry for RP and that we are a CP hungry army. We are not. My 1.5-2k point lists are just outrider and spearhead detachments. My only cp usage is on destroyers and the odd re-roll. Since I made this change and started to play the army like this my winrate has shot up and I'm even able to fight more evenly with stronger, more competitive armies and certain units which before were absolute pains to deal with (daemon princes, flyrants etc) are now much easier to deal with. By not taking battallions or troops you stop yourself from paying too many points for substandard HQ units and troops units and can focus on the units in the codex that can actually do things.

I think you're right. Fooled around some more and got a list with a bunch of wraiths, a few scarabs, and a Nightbringer inside two outriders. Had to take some particle beamers on some of my TB but it looked like a lot meaner list and they can be the first casualties anyway. Only 5 CP though. But if I'm just using that for destroyers like you say that could be enough. Can't wait to try out some variations on this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Yeah I'd say Tomb Blades are one of the least fun models to out together for the army after Triarch Stalkers. Holy hell those two were a pain.

Good god yes. I love the army but we get some of the hardest models to build and paint. DDA are probably my least favorite so far. And cockpits are everywhere. Hell, that's all a TB is XD

The thing is that I felt a sense of accomplishment after the Arks because it was awesome seeing it finally coming together as little fun as I had with the Arrays. Tomb Blades just aren't giving that feeling and Stalkers are just dumb.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slashy McTalons wrote:

Bosskelot wrote:
I've stopped using troops and battallions almost entirely. The biggest misconception and poisonous idea among Necron players right now is that we need big blocks of infantry for RP and that we are a CP hungry army. We are not. My 1.5-2k point lists are just outrider and spearhead detachments.

I agree with you. The last game I played, my friend used my Necrons, and someone commented of the report that his list 'sucked' cos he didn't take big max size blocks of troops to maximise RP. Now it's true wasn't a great list anyway cos we played a big game and he had to pad it out, but I took issue with the idea that Crons should think about RP at all really. I see it as 'throwing good money after bad'. RP is already crappy so doubling down and buying meh troops to try and make it work just seems illogical. Forget RP and if you ever get to make a roll, look at it as a free bonus.

I do like the idea of a cloaktek following 6 Wraiths and then using the 2CP strat to res them on a 4+ if they get whittled down, though.

I think a single Battalion doesnt hurt as long as you're running the same Tomb Worlds, as it isn't like Immortals are the worst troop tax out there. I do agree though that a lack of CP hasn't really gotten to me though. Usually I'm in 9ish CP and then regenerating them with Hyperlogical, as much as I might want to use a different Warlord trait.

Here's an idea for a list with the whole 'Screw a battalion' mindset:

Nephrekh Outrider detachment

Cloaktek

6x Wraiths

6x Destroyers

6x Destroyers

9x Tomb Blades /w Telsa & Shield Vanes

Nihalkh Spearhead detachment

Cloaktek

3x DDA

I am tempted to make the spearhead Mephrit, just to give the DDA's more close-range fire support in case the enemy doesn't have (many) tanks.



This is almost 2000 points, skip a tomb blade or a destroyer to get 2x3 scarabs for some objective holders.

That's a pretty ideal list if you ask me. My last tournament I really felt the struggle with the battalion tax in my one loss.

Doctoralex wrote:
Here's an idea for a list with the whole 'Screw a battalion' mindset:

Nephrekh Outrider detachment

Cloaktek

6x Wraiths

6x Destroyers

6x Destroyers

9x Tomb Blades /w Telsa & Shield Vanes

Nihalkh Spearhead detachment

Cloaktek

3x DDA

I am tempted to make the spearhead Mephrit, just to give the DDA's more close-range fire support in case the enemy doesn't have (many) tanks.



This is almost 2000 points, skip a tomb blade or a destroyer to get 2x3 scarabs for some objective holders.

My planned 2k list is:

Sautekh Outrider

Cloaktek with the Abyssal Staff

x6 Destroyers

x9 Tomb Blades with Gauss, vanes and scopes

x9 Tomb Blades with Tesla, vanes and scopes

3 units of 3 scarabs, maybe adding in a couple more depending on final points

then a Nihilakh spearhead detachment

led by a lord with a hyperphase sword

x2 DDA's

2 units of 3 heavy destroyers

I don't agree with the Lord in that second detachment as he's only affecting the Heavy Destroyers. Cloaktek makes more sense there.

That's all I want him to affect. I want the H.D's to be more reliable and he's cheaper than a cloaktek. Living metal is worthless as a special rule and DDA's are made of paper so if an enemy wants them to die, they will die.

Running DDAs without a battalion isn't a good idea. You need CP for quantum deflection and damage control override. I wonder if a list with Wraith and destroyers only, with some scarabs, would work. A destroyer lord with crimson haze to buff wraiths and a cloaktek for the destroyers. Its weird that a destroyer lord with crimson haze is more useful buffing wraith than going with destroyers.

 Bosskelot wrote:
That's all I want him to affect. I want the H.D's to be more reliable and he's cheaper than a cloaktek. Living metal is worthless as a special rule and DDA's are made of paper so if an enemy wants them to die, they will die.

But he's how much cheaper than a Cloaktek?

Ok so today, I met the necrons. It was painful. The destroyers with the stratagem rerolled everything for 1 PC, it was awful, but overall except this, and even if I was playing against Imothek, they didn't feel overpowered or anything.
The scarabs were annoying too, I had to use anti tank weaponry to destroy them !
But I have to point out that RP isn't as bad as you seem to think, as the opponent has to finish the unit, with whatever unit / weapons it has left, even if some weapons would be better advised against others units. RP doesn't really protect the unit that has it, indeed, but it protects the others units by making your opponent finish this particular unit. Once you have shooted a necron unit, you have to finish it. You can't do otherwise or you would have wasted a precious turn.

 godardc wrote:
Ok so today, I met the necrons. It was painful. The destroyers with the stratagem rerolled everything for 1 PC, it was awful, but overall except this, and even if I was playing against Imothek, they didn't feel overpowered or anything.
The scarabs were annoying too, I had to use anti tank weaponry to destroy them !
But I have to point out that RP isn't as bad as you seem to think, as the opponent has to finish the unit, with whatever unit / weapons it has left, even if some weapons would be better advised against others units. RP doesn't really protect the unit that has it, indeed, but it protects the others units by making your opponent finish this particular unit. Once you have shooted a necron unit, you have to finish it. You can't do otherwise or you would have wasted a precious turn.

That would be a good point if units couldn't split fire, making it so that an opponent would theoretically have to dedicate another unit's worth of shooting to take down the last Necron standing. Unfortunately split firing is something that exists in this edition.

Sure the opponent might have to dedicate a Lascannon shot to finish off that last resilient Immortal, but it comes with a heavy asterisk. The only real time that would happen is when the opponent has already wiped out one or two units and throwing what little anti-infantry they have left into the next unit to then follow up with the anti-tank to finish off said unit, or when they didn't bring enough anti-infantry in the first place. The first instance results us losing two to three units and not getting to use an ability we pay a big tax for, and the second instance relies on your opponent making poor list choices.

Have to mention as well that anti-tank isn't even useful against our tanks due to QS. Normally that would be great, but to get that we then became weaker to mass amounts of small fire, which just so happens to be what the rest of our army is weak against. Against a DDA 20 Bolter shots do a little bit more damage than 3 Lascannons. Anti-tank usually goes to waste against a Necron army and is better invested into more shots.

New topic

Are Tomb Stalkers (The Choppy Ones) any good? What reasons can you think when they'd be better than taking wraiths, if at all? They cost the exact same as 3 wraiths, so what do you think?

 iGuy91 wrote:
New topic

Are Tomb Stalkers (The Choppy Ones) any good? What reasons can you think when they'd be better than taking wraiths, if at all? They cost the exact same as 3 wraiths, so what do you think?

The damage output really doesn't quite make up for the lack of invul or quantum shielding in my opinion. The sentinel I could consider.

There is little reason to pick a tomb stalker over 3 wraith. T7 and living metal is nice, but useless when the model dies in the same turn. It can deepstrike, but has the usual problem of making the 9" charge. Only one model, no chance to reanimate, wraith can reanimate for 2 CP. No invuln sv, slower, doesnt ignore models and terrain, less attacks, average damage is the same. If you want to use a stalker use the sentinel. Less attacks, but a much better gun.

Maybe as a distraction carnifex ?

Necrons can hardly afford a distraction carnifex, our units are pretty expensive, even overpriced.

 iGuy91 wrote:
New topic

Are Tomb Stalkers (The Choppy Ones) any good? What reasons can you think when they'd be better than taking wraiths, if at all? They cost the exact same as 3 wraiths, so what do you think?

You need to build up some sort of synergy, in which teleporting in the stalker doesn't make him the priority target but he is still a meaningful addition to the part of the battlefield, not sure how.

It has deep strike which the wraiths do not.

Perhaps 20 mephrit warriors veiled in by a lord, a substantial threat. Then in addition beam in the stalker to provide the CC threat in addition.

-Sentinel- wrote:
Im going to ETC style team tournament of 18 teams per 8 players at June 7-8 with silver tide style army.

Spoiler:

Sautekh +5 CP

HQ: Lord (73) - Hyperphase Sword (3) [76] Warlord: Immortal Pride, Artefact: Veil of Darkness
HQ: Orikan the Diviner [115]
Troops: 19x Necron Warriors [228]
Troops: 19x Necron Warriors [228]
Troops: 19x Necron Warriors [228]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]

Nephrekh +1 CP
HQ: Anrakyr the Traveller [167]
Fast Attack: 6x Destroyers [300]
Fast Attack: 3x Canoptek Scarabs [39]
Fast Attack: 3x Canoptek Scarabs [39]

Total: 1999
CP: 9

Will report results afterward.

So i played tournament. I was acting as a defender all 4 games: 1st, 2nd and 4th as first defender. 3rd as third defender.

First game against tau - 3 riptides and lot of 5-man troops squads. Win first turn, advanced all warriors forward, DDA fly forward. Lost a squad and DDA turn one. Then i managed to charge and live through close combat with 2 squads. Lost all but those 2 squads and herooes though. Due to huge maelstorm lead, i win 20-0.

2nd against Big G - 40 sniper scouts, Tigurius, 2 bike caps, 3 hunters. He just couldn't kill squad of warriors entirely. 20-0.

3rd against Drukhari - 10 and 9 grotesques, 3 ravager, 3 per 5 scourges, flyer, support heroes and troops. Was locked at my side of table. Fortunatelly my opponent was a bit slow and clocked himself, so i could have a free turn before dicedown. Not that much helped, 5-15 lost.

4th against Eldar + Harlequins. Managed to survive solitaire + shining spears charge turn 1. After that warriors advanced forward, took relic from rangers killing 4 eldar HQs in close combat in process. Lost all but 5 warriors on a relic though up to turn 7. 20-0

Thats a good concept. Anrakyr + Orikan combo helps warriors a lot.

-Sentinel- wrote:

-Sentinel- wrote:
Im going to ETC style team tournament of 18 teams per 8 players at June 7-8 with silver tide style army.

Spoiler:

Sautekh +5 CP

HQ: Lord (73) - Hyperphase Sword (3) [76] Warlord: Immortal Pride, Artefact: Veil of Darkness
HQ: Orikan the Diviner [115]
Troops: 19x Necron Warriors [228]
Troops: 19x Necron Warriors [228]
Troops: 19x Necron Warriors [228]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]
Heavy Support: Doomsday Ark [193]

Nephrekh +1 CP
HQ: Anrakyr the Traveller [167]
Fast Attack: 6x Destroyers [300]
Fast Attack: 3x Canoptek Scarabs [39]
Fast Attack: 3x Canoptek Scarabs [39]

Total: 1999
CP: 9

Will report results afterward.

So i played tournament. I was acting as a defender all 4 games: 1st, 2nd and 4th as first defender. 3rd as third defender.

First game against tau - 3 riptides and lot of 5-man troops squads. Win first turn, advanced all warriors forward, DDA fly forward. Lost a squad and DDA turn one. Then i managed to charge and live through close combat with 2 squads. Lost all but those 2 squads and herooes though. Due to huge maelstorm lead, i win 20-0.

2nd against Big G - 40 sniper scouts, Tigurius, 2 bike caps, 3 hunters. He just couldn't kill squad of warriors entirely. 20-0.

3rd against Drukhari - 10 and 9 grotesques, 3 ravager, 3 per 5 scourges, flyer, support heroes and troops. Was locked at my side of table. Fortunatelly my opponent was a bit slow and clocked himself, so i could have a free turn before dicedown. Not that much helped, 5-15 lost.

4th against Eldar + Harlequins. Managed to survive solitaire + shining spears charge turn 1. After that warriors advanced forward, took relic from rangers killing 4 eldar HQs in close combat in process. Lost all but 5 warriors on a relic though up to turn 7. 20-0

Thats a good concept. Anrakyr + Orikan combo helps warriors a lot.

Huzzah for Silver Tide working!

Questions:

-How useful was Sautekh? Would Mephrit have worked better for the extra AP?

-How useful was Orikan’s 5++ in melee? Would a regular Cryptek/w Chronemetron have given the same results?

-How would Szeras have functioned in your list? Was the 5++ against shooting invaluable or do you think his upgrades woud have helped a lot?

-Would a Ressurection Orb have made a lot of difference?

Doctoralex wrote:


Huzzah for Silver Tide working!

Questions:

-How useful was Sautekh? Would Mephrit have worked better for the extra AP?

-How useful was Orikan’s 5++ in melee? Would a regular Cryptek/w Chronemetron have given the same results?

-How would Szeras have functioned in your list? Was the 5++ against shooting invaluable or do you think his upgrades woud have helped a lot?

-Would a Ressurection Orb have made a lot of difference?

Orikan heplped a lot. 5++ increases warriors survivability drastically - both against shooting and melee. He is main reason i want Sautekh. But also i had advanced with warriors 3 out of 4 games and used methodical destruction in 1 game. DDA moved across the field 2 out of 4 games. So yes, i think Sautekhs are better.

I think 3 additional warriors are better than res orb since opponent tries to finish your squads. Often he even succeeds.

I still think we are tier 3 army. But this is a good build between stuff that we have.

-Sentinel- wrote:

Doctoralex wrote:


Huzzah for Silver Tide working!

Questions:

-How useful was Sautekh? Would Mephrit have worked better for the extra AP?

-How useful was Orikan’s 5++ in melee? Would a regular Cryptek/w Chronemetron have given the same results?

-How would Szeras have functioned in your list? Was the 5++ against shooting invaluable or do you think his upgrades woud have helped a lot?

-Would a Ressurection Orb have made a lot of difference?

Orikan heplped a lot. 5++ increases warriors survivability drastically - both against shooting and melee. He is main reason i want Sautekh. But also i had advanced with warriors 3 out of 4 games and used methodical destruction in 1 game. DDA moved across the field 2 out of 4 games. So yes, i think Sautekhs are better.

I think 3 additional warriors are better than res orb since opponent tries to finish your squads. Often he even succeeds.

I still think we are tier 3 army. But this is a good build between stuff that we have.

How do you think you'd fare against a solid AM gunline?

-Sentinel- wrote:

Doctoralex wrote:


Huzzah for Silver Tide working!

Questions:

-How useful was Sautekh? Would Mephrit have worked better for the extra AP?

-How useful was Orikan’s 5++ in melee? Would a regular Cryptek/w Chronemetron have given the same results?

-How would Szeras have functioned in your list? Was the 5++ against shooting invaluable or do you think his upgrades woud have helped a lot?

-Would a Ressurection Orb have made a lot of difference?


Yeah sautekh and advances up with their Dynastry triat helps a lot. Especially if you can set up a rapid fire and charge for the next turn.

Orikan heplped a lot. 5++ increases warriors survivability drastically - both against shooting and melee. He is main reason i want Sautekh. But also i had advanced with warriors 3 out of 4 games and used methodical destruction in 1 game. DDA moved across the field 2 out of 4 games. So yes, i think Sautekhs are better.

I think 3 additional warriors are better than res orb since opponent tries to finish your squads. Often he even succeeds.

I still think we are tier 3 army. But this is a good build between stuff that we have.

torblind wrote:

-Sentinel- wrote:

Doctoralex wrote:


Huzzah for Silver Tide working!

Questions:

-How useful was Sautekh? Would Mephrit have worked better for the extra AP?

-How useful was Orikan’s 5++ in melee? Would a regular Cryptek/w Chronemetron have given the same results?

-How would Szeras have functioned in your list? Was the 5++ against shooting invaluable or do you think his upgrades woud have helped a lot?

-Would a Ressurection Orb have made a lot of difference?

Orikan heplped a lot. 5++ increases warriors survivability drastically - both against shooting and melee. He is main reason i want Sautekh. But also i had advanced with warriors 3 out of 4 games and used methodical destruction in 1 game. DDA moved across the field 2 out of 4 games. So yes, i think Sautekhs are better.

I think 3 additional warriors are better than res orb since opponent tries to finish your squads. Often he even succeeds.

I still think we are tier 3 army. But this is a good build between stuff that we have.

How do you think you'd fare against a solid AM gunline?

Well, according to net-wisdom nothing can stand up to a good AM gunline because IG is so stupidly OP, so whats the point in asking? lmao Here we go again!

 iGuy91 wrote:

torblind wrote:

-Sentinel- wrote:

Doctoralex wrote:


Huzzah for Silver Tide working!

Questions:

-How useful was Sautekh? Would Mephrit have worked better for the extra AP?

-How useful was Orikan’s 5++ in melee? Would a regular Cryptek/w Chronemetron have given the same results?

-How would Szeras have functioned in your list? Was the 5++ against shooting invaluable or do you think his upgrades woud have helped a lot?

-Would a Ressurection Orb have made a lot of difference?

Orikan heplped a lot. 5++ increases warriors survivability drastically - both against shooting and melee. He is main reason i want Sautekh. But also i had advanced with warriors 3 out of 4 games and used methodical destruction in 1 game. DDA moved across the field 2 out of 4 games. So yes, i think Sautekhs are better.

I think 3 additional warriors are better than res orb since opponent tries to finish your squads. Often he even succeeds.

I still think we are tier 3 army. But this is a good build between stuff that we have.

How do you think you'd fare against a solid AM gunline?

Well, according to net-wisdom nothing can stand up to a good AM gunline because IG is so stupidly OP, so whats the point in asking? lmao Here we go again!

Well you could at least have a meaningful presence. One could hope.

But 3 DDAs, a pylon, 2*6 destroyers and 12 wraiths should out a dent in him. (And your 2k point limit) but yeah, not really an answer to that I guess

@Torblind

Oh, I know, I'm just messing with you. That's about as good as we get. I just like poking fun at hysteria.

So yes, what Torblind said. That's good advice.

 iGuy91 wrote:
@Torblind

Oh, I know, I'm just messing with you. That's about as good as we get. I just like poking fun at hysteria.

So yes, what Torblind said. That's good advice.

Sure, no, figured as much, I was hoping to get a micrometer wiser on how much you can deviate from that as-good-as-possible-tailored-for-AM-gunline and still do well against other armies.

Impressed with what I heard about that silvertide, without deceiver even

torblind wrote:


How do you think you'd fare against a solid AM gunline?

With knights codex meta deviated from punishers to more anti-tank versions. Without themi dont feel that warriors in danger that much.
If i go first i should have a decent chance. Charge them turn 1-2, box some models preventing him from quiting close combat, engage leman russes. Win on mission.

Problems comes when AM player takes Imperial knight. Thats huge OP concept, i agree.

ETC have basically abandoned necrons. ONE non 3 vault list in the entire thing. whelp

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
ETC have basically abandoned necrons. 1 non 3 vault list in the entire thing. whelp

Called it. As soon as all the codices have been released, we will be the laughing stock bottom-tier codex again, just like with the index.

So...let's hope for massive point drops in CA i guess?

Knowing GW, Destroyers, DDAs, Tesseract Arks, will all get more expensive, and everything else will get slightly cheaper, which will actually make us worse.

 iGuy91 wrote:
Knowing GW, Destroyers, DDAs, Tesseract Arks, will all get more expensive, and everything else will get slightly cheaper, which will actually make us worse.

Actually, they aren't much in the habit of lowering the cost of things; just raising them.

Doctoralex wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
ETC have basically abandoned necrons. 1 non 3 vault list in the entire thing. whelp

Called it. As soon as all the codices have been released, we will be the laughing stock bottom-tier codex again, just like with the index.

I have a suspicion that GW really hates necrons. Why else do we always lose our cool stuff and get crap in return?
Pariahs? Gone.
Cool flayed ones? Gone.
Monolith? Pathetic.
Necrons that actually act like robots rather than larping humans? Lol nope, even Techpriests are more inhuman and robotic. Techpriests don't move their lips to speak, for one thing. They tend to have a voice modulator thing.
Vehicles? Don't really fit aesthetically and aren't as tough as they should be. Yes, QS can potentially be very strong. Potentially being the operational word. In practice its very unreliable, and I'd rather have raw stats than to rely on a gimmick. We really need a proper tank vehicle that isn't an overpriced paperweight like the monolith.

Dont lose hope, there is a forgeworld titanic unit coming!

And thoughts aside: Who the f. plays on tournament level? Only real tournament dudes and tryhards. my necrons fight pretty good on the average gaming table, hell they are even scary for some peeps.

Its just what you make of it. And we are flexible.
Want a horde army? Go for it.
Want fast skimmers? Nephrek and A LOT of fly units got you covered.
Want a HQ heavy playstyle? DestroyerLords/Lords/CCB/Overlords are there to choose from.
Want flyers? Just spam croissants.
Want A HUGE fething BUILDING DEEPSTRIKING somewhere? monolith helps you out.
Want to spam some mortal wounds? USE fething SHARDS OF GODS TO DISMANTLE YOUR ENEMIES.
Want some Vehicles? Okay we only got the arks and walker (A FKN HUGE SPIDER-THING!). still manageable though!

EDIT: ah thanks for the edit, whoever it was

 _Ness wrote:
Dont lose hope, there is a forgeworld titanic unit coming!

It is a cool unit, but I fear two things

1) Its underwhelming compared to everyone else's titan equivalent for its points cost
2) Its really good at first, but then gets nerfed to oblivion. Because necrons can never have nice things.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Knowing GW, Destroyers, DDAs, Tesseract Arks, will all get more expensive, and everything else will get slightly cheaper, which will actually make us worse.

Actually, they aren't much in the habit of lowering the cost of things; just raising them.

Really? Necrons were lowered almost all over when the codex dropped

I hope that the large FW spider thing becomes a good counter against knights, now that the IK codex is out FW will hopefully construct some good anti knight rules. Im going to warhammer fest in germany next month, would be nice if i could buy it there

I love the look of that Canoptek Sentinel or whatever its gonna be called. I'm debating a purchase based on aesthetics alone.

But yes, we have a lot of at least viable options to put onto a table. The codex doesn't shine in competitive play, but is at least varied enough to be fun to use. I do feel like we're still getting punished for success in previous editions though.

torblind wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Knowing GW, Destroyers, DDAs, Tesseract Arks, will all get more expensive, and everything else will get slightly cheaper, which will actually make us worse.

Actually, they aren't much in the habit of lowering the cost of things; just raising them.

Really? Necrons were lowered almost all over when the codex dropped

That's now how errata price changes go though. They're almost always up.

Errata price changes neuter powerful things, they don't do anything for things that suck.

For example, Craftworld Eldar armies feature all of the same units they did as when the codex came out, they just have fewer total models. The other 85% of the codex that sucks still sucks.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

torblind wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Knowing GW, Destroyers, DDAs, Tesseract Arks, will all get more expensive, and everything else will get slightly cheaper, which will actually make us worse.

Actually, they aren't much in the habit of lowering the cost of things; just raising them.

Really? Necrons were lowered almost all over when the codex dropped

That's now how errata price changes go though. They're almost always up.

Errata price changes neuter powerful things, they don't do anything for things that suck.

For example, Craftworld Eldar armies feature all of the same units they did as when the codex came out, they just have fewer total models. The other 85% of the codex that sucks still sucks.

I don't understand what you're trying to say about Craftworld Eldar here... but that codex is full of good units.

Also, the Space Marines have seen points drops in almost every FAQ or CA since the codex dropped, so let's not go down the rabbit hole of "this will never get fixed" or " GW hates us" - GW likes to make money, so I'm 100% positive if they could wave a magic wand and make the Necrons a cash cow they would.

for now, submit your issues and evidence to GW and hopefully we'll see a change in the upcoming FAQs and CA.

We know they're listening, so while we have their ear, why don't we use this opportunity... not to berate them, but to show them through evidence that we are slightly over-costed or whatever your thought are on the "necron issue"

To me.. we're slightly overcosted, paying too much for Reanimation. We know they won't over-haul the mechanic, so i think they need to adjust the cost associated with it. Also, necrons feel uninspired... to me, they are just not as fun to play. It has nothing to do with wins/losses, and everything tod o with... it just isn't exciting or fun. not sure what to do about that.

 iGuy91 wrote:
I love the look of that Canoptek Sentinel or whatever its gonna be called. I'm debating a purchase based on aesthetics alone.

There is a video on youtube how to make the sentinel from a GW wraith box, if you dislike FW resin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjrOK6Mlr0

 p5freak wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
I love the look of that Canoptek Sentinel or whatever its gonna be called. I'm debating a purchase based on aesthetics alone.

There is a video on youtube how to make the sentinel from a GW wraith box, if you dislike FW resin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjrOK6Mlr0

I recently got the FW kit and it is a little intimidating to assemble, but it actually came out great.

Fun kit.

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
I love the look of that Canoptek Sentinel or whatever its gonna be called. I'm debating a purchase based on aesthetics alone.

There is a video on youtube how to make the sentinel from a GW wraith box, if you dislike FW resin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjrOK6Mlr0

I recently got the FW kit and it is a little intimidating to assemble, but it actually came out great.

Fun kit.

I was more intending to refer to that new Necron "Construct" that they showed at WarhammerFest 2018. It looks like a giant Triarch Stalker, but even more awesome
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/773985885934699100/

 iGuy91 wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
I love the look of that Canoptek Sentinel or whatever its gonna be called. I'm debating a purchase based on aesthetics alone.

There is a video on youtube how to make the sentinel from a GW wraith box, if you dislike FW resin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEjrOK6Mlr0

I recently got the FW kit and it is a little intimidating to assemble, but it actually came out great.

Fun kit.

I was more intending to refer to that new Necron "Construct" that they showed at WarhammerFest 2018. It looks like a giant Triarch Stalker, but even more awesome
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/773985885934699100/

It would be cool to build something like it, based of pictures released, though the Stalker legs are likely not the right scale.

I'm getting back into 40k after dropping out of early 6th, and decided to pull my Necrons out of retirement--maybe also because they're the only army I have not currently sitting in storage covered in spiders. Flicking through the codex and a few online posts and places like 1d4chan, I've dropped a significant sum of money on Destroyers because they seem like a safe bet until they get nerfed, but because I'm not made of cash or room to put new models, I'm going to have to stick with what I already have to support them.

What I've got incoming Destroyer-wise are 15 Destroyers--3 to be made into HDs for implantation into squads or use separately--and a Destroyer Lord, which raised a few eyebrows and comments of "that's too many destroyers" when I made the order in-store. So that raises my first question: was that BS? From what I've seen so far, the general consensus is that 2 squads of Destroyers--with or without implanted HDs--is considered fairly normal for 8thCrons. I'll likely be playing 1500pts, so was it in reference to that? Or are 2 squads at 1500 still fairly alright? Would I be better off canning one of the units--and probably the Destroyer Lord, at that point--altogether and investing in something like DDAs? I'll be honest and say that I'm really not a fan of the Ghost Ark/DDA model, so I've been loath to actually source any, but again reading through various things it feels more and more like the DDA is practically mandatory if you want to be harming heavier vehicles, with the 1-shot Heavy Destroyers simply not cutting enough mustard, being fielded either one at a time with regular Destroyers, or in high-priority groups of just 3, and especially if they roll poorly with damage.

So, second question: am I irredeemably boned if I don't take DDAs? As much as winning is nice--and I somehow never lost a game with the newfluff 5th/6th codex, a record I doubt I'll ever meet again--I'd rather it not be a matter of having to use units I'm not fond of if I want any chance of anything more than a decently well-fought loss whenever I play.
There's also a personal matter of not touching any fliers or any of these newer, huge and expensive kits. My Eldar won't be getting any Wraithknights, my Tau won't be getting any Riptides or Stormsurges, my Necrons won't be getting any Tesseract Vaults or whatnot. Personally, I feel they've no place in regular 40k, Knights included. This is purely a personal grievance, though, and I'm not looking to try and criticise the game if it means I'm hamstringing myself slightly; after all, it's my own choice, so I'll bear that. So I suppose there's a 2a question of: are Necron fliers/big expensive models similar to DDAs in being almost too good to ignore? I've heard of triple Vault armies, but outside of those, I've seen little mention of our super-heavies or fliers, so I'm hoping that I'm not gimping my Necrons as much as I might be gimping something like my Tau.

The third matter is one of troops. I love Immortals, tesla specifically. Not just their rules, but also the concept and the models are quite nice, too. Warriors, however? Not so much. I've got a *few* that haven't fallen apart and lost vital bits over the past few years, and I've got 12 more incoming from eBay soon, so I might be able to field one squad of 20 if I have to--and if they stay together; I swear they repel plastic glue, no other plastic model I've made falls apart so easily--but I really want to find a place for Immortals more than Warriors. My worry is that, by the end, I'll be fielding an army made up of nothing, or very little, I actually *like* in the name of trying not to feel like I'm wasting my time playing the game. If they all stay together, I can field about 26 Immortals; 16 Tesla, and 10 unbuilt. I figure if I'm going to be using Destroyers, I might as well go HAM on the Teslammortals? Or should I still build some as Gauss for the purpose of versatility in future lists? As much as I like tesla, I feel like fielding the 2-3 Annihilation Barges I can bring as well as Tesla Immortals would be overkill, which segues nicely into my fourth issue.

It's safe to say that most of what I have leftover from 5th/6th isn't looking... fantastic in 8th. Aside from my Immortals and Warriors, I have a handful of Crypteks I can no longer use most of; two Overlords--though I've got a newer, more unique one arriving soon, so I can probably relegate those to Lords easily enough--a Triarch Stalker with a Heat Ray, though if I can find the sprue I might be able to make the Heavy Gauss Cannon and use it more like a Necron markerlight, which feels like its only real use; some Scarabs, which I'm already planning to use in an Outrider detachment with the Destroyers I bought and still seem fairly useful, even if only for area denial or tying--/blowing, if I want to spend CP on it--something up; 2 Canoptek Spyders, which I gather are ever so slightly less useful than a chocolate teapot in the current codex; and 3 AB/CCBs, of which the ABs seem to have been nerfed a little, but no idea about the CCB. I've no Wraiths--partially because I was already getting flak for using Necrons back then in the first place, even without any croissants, and adding a buttload of Wraiths wouldn't have made me any friends--no Tomb Blades... Basically, anything that's still good, I don't have.

From what I can tell, the CCB is only worth taking if you give it the Lightning Field to make up for its abysmal T6 W8 and Quantum Shielding being worth absolutely nothing on a vehicle most likely to be taken out by 1/D2/D3 damage weapons; its only saving grace statswise being that it doesn't lose combat effectiveness with damage. So that limits it to one CCB in the army at any time, unless you feel like throwing away the best part of 200pts. Annihilation Barges seem alright, if a little brittle for only having 24" range--especially next to something like an Armiger Helverin, which can safely sit at 60" and tear stuff apart, while still having better across the board stats--but fulfil the same role as Teslammortals or Tesla Blades, just with S7, and I feel like even with just S5, Immortals/Tomb Blades are still the better investment, almost purely because an AB is fragile. Anyone with actual experience of these in 8th is welcome to correct me, though, as this is purely just me looking at things right now. Is there anything worth salvaging from all that, besides the scarabs and maybe a single CCB?

Now for my final question is: are Lords a good investment? I'd say I could reasonably keep 1-2 units of Tesla Immortals within 6" for the re-rolls to wound, but the investment is worth another 1 and a half Destroyers, or close to another 5 Immortals. The re-roll looks nice on paper, and maybe more worth it if using max-strength Immortals to take as much advantage of Telsa as possible, but I'm not sure about the cost effectiveness of re-rolling 1s to wound vs simply having a potential 5-15 more hits as well as more bodies to have to shoot through. And although I said that was final question, I've got one, very final one: are MSU Immortals better than full-strength at 1500pts? Or are full-strength units still just about tough enough to withstand shooting at that level? I get MSU utility at 1750+, and how full-strength is still useful around 1000-1250, but 1500 feels like a bit more of a grey area.

So yeah, if you managed to get through all that without having an aynuerism then congrats, because I'm not sure I got through writing it all unscathed

Armies I might face are fairly varied, but I do know there are a good few pure Knight players around, which I gather I might as well just throw whatever models I have at the time at for all the good making a cohesive list would do.

@Avatar 720
Destroyers are excellent, a good investment. At 1500, 1 6 man squad is probably good for a casual game, just deploy them smart to keep them killing. Extermination Protocols lets them reliably perform anti-tank duties. However, they basically have to drop in and eliminate a key target, and you need to hope they survive the return fire to reliably get good value out of them.

DDAs are not a must, but they are quite good. Trust me. I hate that model too, but having one is not likely going to backfire on you. Our superheavies are good, but expensive forgeworld models, but otherwise our flyers are really, really bad right now since they lack the transport rules, and are wildly overpriced for their firepower (lack thereof). If you are going to bring a vehicle, the DDA is the best one.

3x10 Tesla Immortals is the core of 90% of my necron lists, usually centered around an OL with Immortal Pride to make them fearless, and a cryptek to give them a 5++ save, and better RP. They kick butt with MWBD.

Triarch Stalkers are in a weird place since they don't benefit from dynasty codes for some reason, suggest you pass.

The CCB IMO is an overpriced hunk of junk. Big fire magnet, which won't stay alive without a lightning field. Some folks swear by the mephrit voltaic staff sniper barge, and some people turn them into close combat threats with Novohk, but I don't like them.

Annihilation barges would be good if their shots did d2 or d3 damage, but at flat 1 dmg, I find them underwhelming. YMMV.

Lords seem a good investment to me for 3x10 immortals. I usually have a cryptek, OL, and lord all in range to buff all 3 squads in the center, and they tend to dominate infantry exchanges.

Vs knights....you need a pylon to have a chance IMO. We're pretty weak vs them. The math isn't very good on that front.

Destroyers, wraiths, DDAs, immortals, warriors, overlords, crypteks, lords, tomb blades, scarabs, t. vaults, gauss pylons are the best units necrons have in 8th . The first post in this thread has a list which units are good and which arent.

iGuy91 wrote:@Avatar 720
Destroyers are excellent, a good investment. At 1500, 1 6 man squad is probably good for a casual game, just deploy them smart to keep them killing. Extermination Protocols lets them reliably perform anti-tank duties. However, they basically have to drop in and eliminate a key target, and you need to hope they survive the return fire to reliably get good value out of them.

DDAs are not a must, but they are quite good. Trust me. I hate that model too, but having one is not likely going to backfire on you. Our superheavies are good, but expensive forgeworld models, but otherwise our flyers are really, really bad right now since they lack the transport rules, and are wildly overpriced for their firepower (lack thereof). If you are going to bring a vehicle, the DDA is the best one.

3x10 Tesla Immortals is the core of 90% of my necron lists, usually centered around an OL with Immortal Pride to make them fearless, and a cryptek to give them a 5++ save, and better RP. They kick butt with MWBD.

Triarch Stalkers are in a weird place since they don't benefit from dynasty codes for some reason, suggest you pass.

The CCB IMO is an overpriced hunk of junk. Big fire magnet, which won't stay alive without a lightning field. Some folks swear by the mephrit voltaic staff sniper barge, and some people turn them into close combat threats with Novohk, but I don't like them.

Annihilation barges would be good if their shots did d2 or d3 damage, but at flat 1 dmg, I find them underwhelming. YMMV.

Lords seem a good investment to me for 3x10 immortals. I usually have a cryptek, OL, and lord all in range to buff all 3 squads in the center, and they tend to dominate infantry exchanges.

Vs knights....you need a pylon to have a chance IMO. We're pretty weak vs them. The math isn't very good on that front.

Thanks for the in-depth reply.

I've tried slotting a DDA or two into various lists, but I keep coming back to the same one:


I've tried other combinations using 1 DDA, but Necrons have so comparatively few options that worked with the points left over, especially if I didn't want to start remvoing Immortals, that it was difficult to justify purchasing anything other than a second DDA. The only choice left is Dynasty. Mephrit I feel would be better from the armies I've seen and know at my local store, but Nihilak wouldn't be terrible if I could convince my opponent to come to me, and since the DDAs want to stay still anyway Nihilak seems like the best choice for them; Mephrit would be the dictionary definition of overkill. I'd have liked to get the DDAs into a Nihilak detachment to keep the Tesla Mephrit, but at this points level it's just not doable unless I take one of them, two solo HDs, and a cheap Lord, at which point I think I'd still rather have 2 DDAs in the Battalion, even if they're not Nihilak. Veil of Darkness is there because it feels like the best generic artefact, though could swap for Timesplinter if I go Nihilak across the board. Being able to jump himself and a unit, especially in the late-game for objective-grabbing or to threaten something, just feels too useful to pass up, though.

The first list I actually built is one I keep looking back to, too, not necessarily because I think it's particularly good, but I think it might be fun to use:


The only big bit of uncertainty I have here is whether or not dropping a Destroyer for the Scarabs so I can get some cheap deep-strike area denial and chaff plus another command point is actually worth it. Since both detachments are Mephrit there's no harm in combining them and maxing out one of the Destroyers--and also giving the Lord a Voidblade, because what else is there to use 4 points on? Since I've never played a game of 8th before, though, and I've no idea how valuable command points are for Necrons, it's not something I can really decide on. Having that extra CP left for a re-roll somewhere might be nice, or I might find myself finishing every game with 2-3 esentially left over anyway. The set-up is definitely not set in stone in that regard. General plan would be to fly the Destroyers, D. Lord, and Cryptek around being a pain the arse, while the Immortals move up. The Cryptek is solely there for the +1 RP on the Destroyers, and I'm more than willing to throw the D. Lord into combat to tie something up. Restoring D3 wounds at the start of every turn could make for a very extended melee if I wanted it to, and I can Fly out if I don't. I dunno, Destroyer Lords have always seemed fun to me, even if not particularly great.

The main issue with this list, though, is AT. In that there... isn't any. I don't really rate 2 Heavy Destroyer shots very highly, and I'll be relying on Extermination Protocols and hoping for 5s against a good lot of things. I suppose even the Tesla will be looking for 5s against things like Knights when a lot of other armies' troops will be looking for 6s, so it's not -horrible-, but it's certainly not exactly enviable, either. But it is the list I think I might have the most fun losing playing with, while the DDA one probably gives me the best chance of meeting all comers. (And transporting; having to lug two DDAs about would require a tray the size of an entire KR case. For two models. )

First list, if you remove the lord and some immortals you can add a third DDA. No res. orb, not worth it. Maybe drop 1-2 immortals from every unit for some scarabs ?



Second list, always max units if possible. It gives the unit a better chance of surviving and reanimating next turn. You cant reanimate a unit which is completely destroyed. Max one unit of destroyers and use the rest of the points for scarabs, or a cryptek. I dont think mephrit is good for tesla immortals. You dont want your shooty units to be within 12" from the enemy. Next turn he will charge you and shut down all your gun fire.

I'm getting mixed messages, here, both re: Lords, and re: maxing units.

You and iGuy seem to disagree on the Lord, but you seem to have contradicted yourself on maxing units, considering you suggest trimming the Immortals down. I'm not quite sure I understand. Why is it okay to drop some Immortals, but being a single Destroyer short is worth dumping the entire unit?

As for Mephrit and Tesla utility, every other dynasty bar Nihilak is useless for it, and Nihilak requires you to be able to sit still and fire with impunity. Personally, I feel like Mephrit is the most flexible, even if I'd have to get dangerously close to see much benefit. That said, overwatch from Tesla isn't the worst thing, and combined with the -1AP from Mephrit makes it even more dangerous.

A third DDA isn't happening, though. I don't really even want to take 2, there's just nothing else I can take once I've picked the first.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

You and iGuy seem to disagree on the Lord, but you seem to have contradicted yourself on maxing units, considering you suggest trimming the Immortals down. I'm not quite sure I understand. Why is it okay to drop some Immortals, but being a single Destroyer short is worth dumping the entire unit?

In order to max units you have to get the points from somewhere, i think the lord is the weakest unit of the three. Trimming one immortal from each unit is a compromise, to get some scarabs. And sorry for the destroyer, i didnt see the heavy destroyer, i counted only 4.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

As for Mephrit and Tesla utility, every other dynasty bar Nihilak is useless for it, and Nihilak requires you to be able to sit still and fire with impunity. Personally, I feel like Mephrit is the most flexible, even if I'd have to get dangerously close to see much benefit. That said, overwatch from Tesla isn't the worst thing, and combined with the -1AP from Mephrit makes it even more dangerous.

With sautekh, MWBD and MD you get tesla to explode on 4+. 20 tesla immortals with that combo did 61 hits for me.

 p5freak wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:

You and iGuy seem to disagree on the Lord, but you seem to have contradicted yourself on maxing units, considering you suggest trimming the Immortals down. I'm not quite sure I understand. Why is it okay to drop some Immortals, but being a single Destroyer short is worth dumping the entire unit?

In order to max units you have to get the points from somewhere, i think the lord is the weakest unit of the three. Trimming one immortal from each unit is a compromise, to get some scarabs. And sorry for the destroyer, i didnt see the heavy destroyer, i counted only 4.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

As for Mephrit and Tesla utility, every other dynasty bar Nihilak is useless for it, and Nihilak requires you to be able to sit still and fire with impunity. Personally, I feel like Mephrit is the most flexible, even if I'd have to get dangerously close to see much benefit. That said, overwatch from Tesla isn't the worst thing, and combined with the -1AP from Mephrit makes it even more dangerous.

With sautekh, MWBD and MD you get tesla to explode on 4+. 20 tesla immortals with that combo did 61 hits for me.

That's well above average though (37)

With MD on top of MWBD the immortals no longer get any benefit to their BS which is already maxed out from the first +1, it's only the Tesla bonus. It's probably smarter to spread the +1 around, or have immortals with +1 shooting at other targets than the MD target, etc

torblind wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Avatar 720 wrote:

You and iGuy seem to disagree on the Lord, but you seem to have contradicted yourself on maxing units, considering you suggest trimming the Immortals down. I'm not quite sure I understand. Why is it okay to drop some Immortals, but being a single Destroyer short is worth dumping the entire unit?

In order to max units you have to get the points from somewhere, i think the lord is the weakest unit of the three. Trimming one immortal from each unit is a compromise, to get some scarabs. And sorry for the destroyer, i didnt see the heavy destroyer, i counted only 4.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

As for Mephrit and Tesla utility, every other dynasty bar Nihilak is useless for it, and Nihilak requires you to be able to sit still and fire with impunity. Personally, I feel like Mephrit is the most flexible, even if I'd have to get dangerously close to see much benefit. That said, overwatch from Tesla isn't the worst thing, and combined with the -1AP from Mephrit makes it even more dangerous.

With sautekh, MWBD and MD you get tesla to explode on 4+. 20 tesla immortals with that combo did 61 hits for me.

That's well above average though (37)

With MD on top of MWBD the immortals no longer get any benefit to their BS which is already maxed out from the first +1, it's only the Tesla bonus. It's probably smarter to spread the +1 around, or have immortals with +1 shooting at other targets than the MD target, etc

yea, the stack of MD and MWBD on the Immortals actually only good if you are shooting fully buffed Magnus or shooting that Harlequin transport.

I think my main concern with MD is the cost; 2 points out of a pot of 8/9 feels quite dear, especially when I'll be wanting Extermination Protocols whenever my Destroyers are shooting, and probably a command re-roll or two for emergencies. If my Warlord was Hyperlogical then maybe I'd go for it, but Immortal Pride for not having to worry about morale and a free DtW attempt feels too good to pass up.

That said, I've mentioned not having any experience with how precious CPs are, so I don't know if the 2CP cost of MD would be acceptable regardless.

CPs are precious, and HS is one of the best WLT we have. I wouldnt bother with immortal pride on a 10 model unit. Keep in mind that everything that has the sautekh dynasty gets +1 to hit with MD, that could be your entire army.

 p5freak wrote:
CPs are precious, and HS is one of the best WLT we have. I wouldnt bother with immortal pride on a 10 model unit. Keep in mind that everything that has the sautekh dynasty gets +1 to hit with MD, that could be your entire army.

It gets +1 to hit a specific target. So in its nature its for taking down priority targets. Those probably won't come around too often.

 p5freak wrote:
CPs are precious, and HS is one of the best WLT we have. I wouldnt bother with immortal pride on a 10 model unit. Keep in mind that everything that has the sautekh dynasty gets +1 to hit with MD, that could be your entire army.

Are you sure? Being able to ignore morale after losing most of a squad to shooting seems pretty good to me, if it means not having to risk losing the last few models to a failed morale check. I could see the reasoning at higher points levels or with MSU, where morale might never come into it, but like I mentioned in my first post in the thread, I'm not sure if 1500 would necessarily allow for enough firepower to easily wipe 10 potentially Chrono'ed Immortals in one shooting phase without needing too many units dedicated to it.

If it was a choice between 1/3 of a chance of saving CP from MD but risking losing the units that would best benefit from it, or having fewer CP to use but a better chance of units being alive to use it, I'm tempted to go for the latter.

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
CPs are precious, and HS is one of the best WLT we have. I wouldnt bother with immortal pride on a 10 model unit. Keep in mind that everything that has the sautekh dynasty gets +1 to hit with MD, that could be your entire army.

Are you sure? Being able to ignore morale after losing most of a squad to shooting seems pretty good to me, if it means not having to risk losing the last few models to a failed morale check. I could see the reasoning at higher points levels or with MSU, where morale might never come into it, but like I mentioned in my first post in the thread, I'm not sure if 1500 would necessarily allow for enough firepower to easily wipe 10 potentially Chrono'ed Immortals in one shooting phase without needing too many units dedicated to it.

If it was a choice between 1/3 of a chance of saving CP from MD but risking losing the units that would best benefit from it, or having fewer CP to use but a better chance of units being alive to use it, I'm tempted to go for the latter.

2CP for a morale save are free with every 6 spent CPs with HS.
Once you need to save morale twice (4CP total spent) then you are likely at a strictly numerical disadvantage with HS, as you would need to spend 12CP to have 4CP extra.

However if you are still in the game after two enemy rounds of shooting and melee, well then its an interesting game. If you are on the verge of turning the tide and win, then bringing back a unit from failed morale and tons of RP dice surely is well worth 2CP regardless of how many you started with or have left. And once you tip the battle in your favor, having ±1CP left probably is of less importance starting turn 3.

So yeah, inconclusive answers and foggy formulations. Using HS to produce extra CP for morale, versus autopassing morale (if within range) but having less CP total, its probably not what decides the outcome.

I started taking Immortal Pride because I don't use Sautekh (that's another discussion for elsewhere).

I've only got Destroyers and Immortals to benefit from the morale.

But in practice, that's not why I now find it so good. Even a single Deny can ruin armies that were counting on their Psykers.

How does a 6 model unit of destroyers benefit from immortal pride ? With only one left there is a 16,7% chance that they fail morale, on a roll of 6.

I play msu sautekh batt, neprek out and have no need for immortal pride(though i wish i could add it for the deny).

If you play MSU then hyperlogical is the best WLT imo.

I think I'll stick with Immortal Pride for the time being, see how much use I get out of potentially recovering from the brink and whether or not I'll be needing the DtW--I know there's a deadly TSons army floating around the local store, and at least one Eldar, but outside those the only armies I know of haven't a Psyker in psight. I'll need to see what comes up. If I'm still getting wiped either way, or I don't face any Psykers worth a damn, I'll consider switching to Sautekh.

As for my Destroyer list itself, I've swapped the two HDs for regular ones, after reading in a good few places that, when paired with EP, the 3 S6 D3 wound shots are going to be more useful than a single S9 D6 one--and minor testing myself suggested the same. Used the points spare to buy a fifth scarab base, and dropped the Lord and a single Immortal for a Chrono-tek.

Photos of the new Necron FW unit. Confirmed multiple weapon loadouts. Can't wait for the rules.

Side view with other weapon detached beside it.

That's going to be so flimsy.

Yes, FW is well known for creating flimsy, weak, underpowered models

 p5freak wrote:
Yes, FW is well known for creating flimsy, weak, underpowered models

... well... the model itself certainly doesnt seem terribly sturdy. Structurally, I mean. Im reminded of the squatting Tyranid Hierophant, or the bowing Exalted Daemon of Khorne...

I think it should be fairly stable, at least as stable as the spyders we are already used too. It should be a lot more stable than the tyranid titan; which is almost insane considering how much weight it has on only four very long and slender legs. I've seen a good few conversions of the tyranid with a terrain feature under the main body to hide a support stick there

 Avatar 720 wrote:
I think I'll stick with Immortal Pride for the time being, see how much use I get out of potentially recovering from the brink and whether or not I'll be needing the DtW--I know there's a deadly TSons army floating around the local store, and at least one Eldar, but outside those the only armies I know of haven't a Psyker in psight. I'll need to see what comes up. If I'm still getting wiped either way, or I don't face any Psykers worth a damn, I'll consider switching to Sautekh.

As for my Destroyer list itself, I've swapped the two HDs for regular ones, after reading in a good few places that, when paired with EP, the 3 S6 D3 wound shots are going to be more useful than a single S9 D6 one--and minor testing myself suggested the same. Used the points spare to buy a fifth scarab base, and dropped the Lord and a single Immortal for a Chrono-tek.

Nephrekh Dynasty is also really good if you feel like you need to change something up and you don't necessarily need the extra CP. Deepstriking Destroyers, Warriors and Immortals that jump 11" a turn (can't shoot but great for closing distances and objective grabbing), and allows a Chronotek to keep up with the Destroyers. 5-6 Destroyers with a 5++ and RP on a 4+ is insanely good.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
I started taking Immortal Pride because I don't use Sautekh (that's another discussion for elsewhere).

I've only got Destroyers and Immortals to benefit from the morale.

But in practice, that's not why I now find it so good. Even a single Deny can ruin armies that were counting on their Psykers.

It is by far my favorite trait. Utterly unexpected when you start denying powers. (My best was 3 denies in 3 turns against eldar)
That, and it maximizes your chances to roll RP. The unit must be completely wiped out to prevent RP.
That, and I run my infantry in tight bricks around my court to spread the love for buffs. Let my fast units claim objectives, while I walk to optimal range.


This last Friday I was running 2x20 warriors and 1x10 tesla immortals with Chronotek and an Immortal Pride OL and Veil of Darkness to escape melee. Nasty combo. Opponent struggled to get close enough to kill my destroyers without getting into mephrit rapid fire range of those bricks. At the end of the game, I still had one brick left at nearly full health, and all my destroyers had RP'd (He killed 5/6, I hid them out of LOS, and I got all of them back quickly)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also *ahem*

I WANT THAT WALKER HNNG

Its very similar to the Nid Heirophant, hunched back, splayed legs, rounded shape.
Im definitely not sure about it.

Removed

I just hope it doesn't suffer from the same affliction as the Triarch Stalker, namely, being an massive oversized vehicle to carry paltry firepower. At least this one has 2 guns instead of just one, and should gain some CC ability by virtue of its sheer size.

Slashy McTalons wrote:
I just hope it doesn't suffer from the same affliction as the Triarch Stalker, namely, being an massive oversized vehicle to carry paltry firepower. At least this one has 2 guns instead of just one, and should gain some CC ability by virtue of its sheer size.

I'm guessing something along the size of one of the dominus knights.
Weapons are a crap shoot, but I'm imagining stomp attacks, walk out of melee, and an invuln save. Probably won't get quantum shielding, that'd probably be too OP...

The Necron Kill Team article is up.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/07/16/16th-july-kill-team-focus-necronsgw-homepage-post-1/

Warriors, Immortals, Deathmarks, and Flayed Ones.
Should be able to make something decent with that.

But under the tactics section, is that...
!!!
OLD STYLE MINDSHACKLE SCARABS??

 iGuy91 wrote:

Slashy McTalons wrote:
I just hope it doesn't suffer from the same affliction as the Triarch Stalker, namely, being an massive oversized vehicle to carry paltry firepower. At least this one has 2 guns instead of just one, and should gain some CC ability by virtue of its sheer size.

I'm guessing something along the size of one of the dominus knights.
Weapons are a crap shoot, but I'm imagining stomp attacks, walk out of melee, and an invuln save. Probably won't get quantum shielding, that'd probably be too OP...

Or a weaker version of QS? like a roll of 6 always fails.

 skoffs wrote:
The Necron Kill Team article is up.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/07/16/16th-july-kill-team-focus-necronsgw-homepage-post-1/

Warriors, Immortals, Deathmarks, and Flayed Ones.
Should be able to make something decent with that.

But under the tactics section, is that...
!!!
OLD STYLE MINDSHACKLE SCARABS??

The rule they mention that presumably is/replaces Reanimation Protocols seems a lot better and more reliable than it is in 40k, too. Essentially it's "every time a model rolls to die, it has a chance to heal to full instead".

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
The Necron Kill Team article is up.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/07/16/16th-july-kill-team-focus-necronsgw-homepage-post-1/

Spoiler:

Warriors, Immortals, Deathmarks, and Flayed Ones.
Should be able to make something decent with that.

But under the tactics section, is that...
!!!
OLD STYLE MINDSHACKLE SCARABS??

The rule they mention that presumably is/replaces Reanimation Protocols seems a lot better and more reliable than it is in 40k, too. Essentially it's "every time a model rolls to die, it has a chance to heal to full instead".

I think that's probably only in regards to the mechanic particular to Kill Team where a "downed" model doesn't immediately die and has a chance to keep contributing to the fight in a reduced capacity or end up "down for the count" (determined by a roll). So for Necrons in KT, instead of sticking around to be able to contribute to the fight in a reduced capacity, if they pass their test they can instead return to the fight at full strength.
In 40k that "every downed model has a chance to keep sticking around" mechanic doesn't exist so adjusting RP to work with around it might not be feasible.

Yeah, of course a mechanic that revolves around the flesh wound system wouldn't translate to 40k where flesh wounds don't exist. I was more just remarking on how the mechanic seems more practical in that system than RP is in 40k.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Yeah, of course a mechanic that revolves around the flesh wound system wouldn't translate to 40k where flesh wounds don't exist. I was more just remarking on how the mechanic seems more practical in that system than RP is in 40k.

Lmao he is not wrong. Its basically FNP by a different name.

It's actually quite different, mechanically speaking. Death Guard will have Disgustingly Resilient/Feel No Pain, which will just be an additional save on top of your armor save before going to the injury roll; for Necrons you can fail a save, succeed at the injury roll and come away with a flesh wound, then fail another save and super-succeed the injury roll removing both flesh wounds and ignoring the numerous penalties that come along with that condition.

In other words, a flesh wound on a plague marine will stick, but you never know when an immortal will suddenly go back to performing at top condition.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It's actually quite different, mechanically speaking. Death Guard will have Disgustingly Resilient/Feel No Pain, which will just be an additional save on top of your armor save before going to the injury roll; for Necrons you can fail a save, succeed at the injury roll and come away with a flesh wound, then fail another save and super-succeed the injury roll removing both flesh wounds and ignoring the numerous penalties that come along with that condition.

In other words, a flesh wound on a plague marine will stick, but you never know when an immortal will suddenly go back to performing at top condition.

That's actually really good. I'm liking kill team necrons.
My collection is large enough to create most team configurations too.

I'm thinking about getting into Necrons. I've got the necrons from the forgebane box and have arranged to split a box with a friend for another lot of them. I also think i'm going to pick up a start collecting box as it seems good value, I think all that together will give me a selection of decent/mainstay units, so i'll probably throw some cash on picking up a few other purchases to fill out a list.

I've got very little experience with them on the table, only 1 game and that was pre-codex, so it would be great if you guys could take a look at my list. I'm aiming for a 1750 list suitable for ITC champion missions. Without further a do, here's my first crack at building a necron list.


Battalion Detachment
Dynastic Heirlooms: Dynastic Heirlooms: 1 Extra Artefact (-1CP)
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Novokh

+ HQ +
Catacomb Command Barge: Artefact: Lightning Field, Resurrection Orb, Tesla Cannon, Warscythe
. Warlord: Warlord Trait (Codex 5): Implacable Conqueror
Cryptek: Artefact: The Veil of Darkness, Chronometron, Staff of Light

+ Troops +
Immortals: 9x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
Immortals: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
Necron Warriors: 20x Necron Warrior

+ Elites +
C'tan Shard of the Deceiver
Lychguard: Hyperphase Sword and Dispersion Shield, 10x Lychguard

+ Fast Attack +
Canoptek Wraiths: 6x Canoptek Wraith

My General Idea was a relatively low drop list to try for the +1 for the roll off and to take advantage of RP with max sized units.
If I go first i use Grand Illusion to redeploy the ctan and the troops in order of what's going to be the most effective counter and then the other(s) can hoof it over the board.
follow that up with the CCB buffing MWBD on the lychguard, then using veil to deepstrike them and the cryptek to hook up with the the redeployed stuff. The lychguard can screen against melee or get off a t1 charge (would need to roll an 8) for tarpit/chaff killing and the cryptek into buff range.
The CCB and wraiths hoof it across the board, with the wraiths trying for a t1 charge, with reroll faild charge from the warlord trait from the CCB depending if they roll a good enough advance.
In theory all this puts the bulk of my army into effective range on turn 1

If I go second and depending what i'm playing against would dictate how I use the redeploy, I've potentially got the option of just ramming the center board and spaghetti back for buffs like a silver tide, objective denial or a more defensive play.

I like that you've thought about your strategies.

Despite the common sentiment, army lists will not win even a single battle for Necrons. Necrons have to win during the game.

 Drider wrote:
I'm thinking about getting into Necrons. I've got the necrons from the forgebane box and have arranged to split a box with a friend for another lot of them. I also think i'm going to pick up a start collecting box as it seems good value, I think all that together will give me a selection of decent/mainstay units, so i'll probably throw some cash on picking up a few other purchases to fill out a list.

I've got very little experience with them on the table, only 1 game and that was pre-codex, so it would be great if you guys could take a look at my list. I'm aiming for a 1750 list suitable for ITC champion missions. Without further a do, here's my first crack at building a necron list.


Battalion Detachment
Dynastic Heirlooms: Dynastic Heirlooms: 1 Extra Artefact (-1CP)
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Novokh

+ HQ +
Catacomb Command Barge: Artefact: Lightning Field, Resurrection Orb, Tesla Cannon, Warscythe
. Warlord: Warlord Trait (Codex 5): Implacable Conqueror
Cryptek: Artefact: The Veil of Darkness, Chronometron, Staff of Light

+ Troops +
Immortals: 9x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
Immortals: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
Necron Warriors: 20x Necron Warrior

+ Elites +
C'tan Shard of the Deceiver
Lychguard: Hyperphase Sword and Dispersion Shield, 10x Lychguard

+ Fast Attack +
Canoptek Wraiths: 6x Canoptek Wraith

My General Idea was a relatively low drop list to try for the +1 for the roll off and to take advantage of RP with max sized units.
If I go first i use Grand Illusion to redeploy the ctan and the troops in order of what's going to be the most effective counter and then the other(s) can hoof it over the board.
follow that up with the CCB buffing MWBD on the lychguard, then using veil to deepstrike them and the cryptek to hook up with the the redeployed stuff. The lychguard can screen against melee or get off a t1 charge (would need to roll an 8) for tarpit/chaff killing and the cryptek into buff range.
The CCB and wraiths hoof it across the board, with the wraiths trying for a t1 charge, with reroll faild charge from the warlord trait from the CCB depending if they roll a good enough advance.
In theory all this puts the bulk of my army into effective range on turn 1

If I go second and depending what i'm playing against would dictate how I use the redeploy, I've potentially got the option of just ramming the center board and spaghetti back for buffs like a silver tide, objective denial or a more defensive play.

What about anti tank units? I fear you will be shot to pieces by 4 leman russes, not to mention knights

This is true. What would you recommend in the way of anti tank? It looks like it mostly comes down to 3 options. Heavy destroyers, doomsday ark and doom scythe. Possibly meph with mass tesla as well.

DDA or Destroyers with their stratagem. Or 7th edition style, with masses of warriors

I'm going to assume Ness is joking with the warriors suggestion.

The default setup for Necron anti-tank is something like 2 DDA + 1 max unit of regular destroyers spamming Extermination Protocols. The Tesseract Ark is another viable option though it's FW resin so ehhh.

I wish Gauss Rule would be sth like +1 to wound with the extra Ap aswell. Quite simple , but would let Immortals and stuff wound everything atleast on a 4+ (maybe only for monster/vehicle)

Yeah. Mass warriors isnt going to to kill a russ let alone a knight. Ignoring mwbd due to the unliklyness of getting it on all 3 units, 60 warriors in rapid fire range vs t8 3+ is about 7 unsaved wounds. They're slightly better vs t5-7 3+, this is crisis suits to rhino territory, with about 14 unsaved wounds. Still not great value. Vs t4 3+ it's 20 wounds. There does seem to be things you can do to improve on the base line results mwbd, lords Will, meph code, but for the most part it's marginal.

Regardless warriors seem very low value in terms of there output vs their points per model. Their real value lies in board control and just being a big pain in the ass to deal with. Mass warriors with cryptek w/ 5++ aura and ghost ark support. It 'should' force an over investment to deal with them. That being said though t4 4+/5++ isn't exactly the bees knees in terms of tank.

 Drider wrote:
This is true. What would you recommend in the way of anti tank? It looks like it mostly comes down to 3 options. Heavy destroyers, doomsday ark and doom scythe. Possibly meph with mass tesla as well.

Destroyers and Doomsday Arks.
If you want to take heavies take it as an upgrade to destroyers. Don't waste a support slot on them. They are too fragile and will get picked off. If they are with destroyers then as least they will have some ablative wounds protecting them.
Doom scythes aren't worth it. Too expensive and they can't even hit properly with their main bloody gun, because GW won't let us have nice things.

I'm surprised Lychguard aren't a kill team option. After seeing all the different things Nids could take, I was hoping we'd get Wraiths. Still, 4 options isn't bad.

Well , it depends on how much different things we can do. Its actually 5 options (immortals are 2 cause tesla/gauss) , how much total option do others have? Like 7 at least?

I think flyers are under valued in general. Their mobility is good for policing characters so much so that they out value sniper type units.

The problem with the Doom scythe is that it wants sautekh for its heavy gun and meph for its tesla. If you just want to buff the tesla then you are as well just taking night scythe and drawing your anti tank from else where.

Had anyone given consideration to the viability of a -1 to hit meph tesla list? CCB, t.immortals, tomb blades and night scythes?

Our fliers would be a lot better if tesla destructors were 2 damage weapons. At their 1 damage level, they do almost no damage. Don't have the weight of fire to take out most anything. Don't have the AP or base damage to take down vehicles, TEQ, or KEQ.

Trust me. My fliers are painted, and I'd love to use them, but they need nearly a 30 point price drop to be usable, or tesla destructors need a buff, which I would prefer.

Yeah. Tesla Destruc. need buff. 2 Dmg seems reasonable , would also make the Anni Barge less meh

2 Damage for the main Tesla Destructor attacks, and a general addition to the Tesla rule that additional Tesla hits can only ever do 1 damage seems a bit more balanced. Might make rolling slightly more involved if you've got no different-coloured dice and have to roll the main wounds and Tesla wounds separately, but each hit being potentially able to generate 6 wounds feels a little silly to me.

The Annihilation Barge is rather flimsy and underwhelming, but the difference in being able to spit out a potential 24 wounds vs a potential 48 wounds with its main weapon alone is massive, and would probably warrant either a cut to the number of attacks, or a price hike.

2 damage for the tesla destructor seems fine to me, even if applied to the additional attacks.
Remember that most armies have weapons and units that have a much, much higher RoF than what a tesla destructor armed unit can provide, so extra damage seems perfectly fair to me.

At 2 damage it will basically turn into 4-12 autocannons with no AP.
First ask yourself if 4-12 autocannons hitting on a 3+ is all that effective. Now remove any save modifiers from it and reduce the range by half.
Also keep in mind that sometimes you'll only ever get 4 autocannons firing at a time if you don't roll high enough to hit, or even if you are firing at a certain target (such as stealth suits, Raven Guard, Altaioc, camo cloaks, etc)

2 damage on the destructor really doesn't seem all that op if you consider all of those factors.

Agreed. But we're getting a bit into wishlisting here. I digress.

Night scythes are best used to deposit assault troops, or otherwise small squads of objective grabbers, if at all.

I for the moment, have benched mine until they receive some help.

GW needs a more frequent balance schedule once a year is not enough for a "living ruleset"

Biasn wrote:
GW needs a more frequent balance schedule once a year is not enough for a "living ruleset"

They need people who actually play the game and are capable of genuine, holistic tactical and strategic analysis.
Other than "looks cool, ship it"
I blame GW's hiring policy; they said at one point they hire for attitude, which means they probably have a bunch of enthusiastic yes men who don't really argue or debate over the health of the game. They need someone who can tell them "no, that's a stupid idea. Here's why."

Hello! I have a friend who has both Start Collecting Necrons boxes.

What should they do with the other two Overlords?

What is a reliable transport system for warriors?

What is an ideal theme to build for with beyond those two boxes?

How does MWBD and the Triarch Stalker debuff interact?

This person is considering more warriors and destroyers, this good?

Thanks for your time

 Rismonite wrote:
Hello! I have a friend who has both Start Collecting Necrons boxes.

What should they do with the other two Overlords?

What is a reliable transport system for warriors?

What is an ideal theme to build for with beyond those two boxes?

How does MWBD and the Triarch Stalker debuff interact?

This person is considering more warriors and destroyers, this good?

Thanks for your time

1) Either convert them to be lords or give them other wargear options.

2) None. You'd want to field a lot of warriors for them to be effective, and no transport has the capacity for them. The Ghost Ark is more of an ambulance, not a APC. Well, alright, you do have the Veil of Darkness and monoliths, but one is one use only and the other is 400 points. Necrons don't actually have much in the way of conventional transports. Which is completely fine, because they are supposed to teleport around anyway.

3) They don't? MWBD gives +1 to hit, advance, and charge. Triarch Stalker is reroll 1s to hit.
.
4) Destroyers yes, warriors...not really. Warriors atm aren't really a good troops choice unless you have a lot of supporting elements and you are at a points level where you can have both damage dealers and what is basically an overpriced meatshield.

 Rismonite wrote:
Hello! I have a friend who has both Start Collecting Necrons boxes.

What should they do with the other two Overlords?

What is a reliable transport system for warriors?

What is an ideal theme to build for with beyond those two boxes?

How does MWBD and the Triarch Stalker debuff interact?

This person is considering more warriors and destroyers, this good?

Thanks for your time

The Deceiver and the Veil of darkness should fairly reliably transport 3*20 warriors to your enemies' doorstep

torblind wrote:

 Rismonite wrote:
Hello! I have a friend who has both Start Collecting Necrons boxes.

What should they do with the other two Overlords?

What is a reliable transport system for warriors?

What is an ideal theme to build for with beyond those two boxes?

How does MWBD and the Triarch Stalker debuff interact?

This person is considering more warriors and destroyers, this good?

Thanks for your time

The Deceiver and the Veil of darkness should fairly reliably transport 3*20 warriors to your enemies' doorstep

Monolith supposed to do that. Reduce its cost, give it 5++, fix disembark from it according to beta rules and we have interesting mobile army.

I am facing orks tomorrow in a 0,5k game. I believe i will see a warboss, weirdboy, 2*30 boyz. Weirdboy will da jump 30 boyz 9" away from me and charge. I have no idea how to counter this with wraits, immortals, destroyers, overlords, cryptek, scarabs. Requirements are one HQ, one troop choice, no W10+ and no 2+ sv.
At first i thought about overlord, veil, and 2*10 tesla immortals, 3 scarabs. Then i thought about a battalion with cryptek, overlord and 5, 6, 7 immortals. Gives me plenty of CP, for two relics veil and solar staff, put some units in deepstrike with nephrekh, but it goes against maxing units to get a better reanimation chance. Then i thought about a low unit count number to get +1 to the initiative roll, cryptek with veil, 6 immortals and 6 destroyers in deepstrike to protect them. Going first is a huge advantage in low point games. I could use immortal pride to counter da jump, but the weirdboy gets +1 for 10 boyz when they are near him, thats +3, or even +6 to the psychic test roll, very unlikely to roll higher. He does peril on a roll on 12+, but this wont kill him, and da jump will happen.

MWBD Tesla Immortals are probably the best bet against boyz.

2x 10 with an Overlord and a scarab screen should do ok.

Use a CP to put MWBD on both units, and they will wipe 30 boyz in one turn.

Wow 500pts game and hes goind to spam boys thats a poor army.

Yeah put a scarab screen in front of them to push back da jump, remember that they fly out of combat should they survive the first round of CC (ie no shooting protection for the boys)

5 scarabs wont do much screening though. At 500 pts. area denial is not really possible, unless i hide in a corner.

 p5freak wrote:
5 scarabs wont do much screening though. At 500 pts. area denial is not really possible, unless i hide in a corner.

If you have buildings, you can completely fill a level of the building to prevent assault. Pretty tfg, but legal.

You'd be amazed how much space you can fill with 5 scarabs at maximum coherency spread.

But otherwise, Mephrit Immortals are the hardest of hard counters to boyz with a -1 at half range.... I'm pretty sure one squad has a decent chance of doing it on their own.

I dont like mephrit, i dont want my immortals only 12" away from boyz. I plan to use nephrekh, maybe put one or two units of immortals in deepstrike, depending on what we play, and then possibly veil the overlord to them. Either offensively to wipe out a lonely unit, or defensively, to get away from a 30 boyz ork mob appearing 9" away from me. Nephrekh also lets me advance 6", moving 11" and still being able to shoot is nice to have.

Have you considered novokh? Giving novokh to a bunch of scarabs would be a nasty surprise for him.

Since you only need 1 Troop choice, it might be worth getting either a min squad of immortals or a blob of warriors.

Fill out the other choices with cheap CC specialists, such as flayed ones and scarabs.

Deathmarks could be used to kill the weird boy. I think you can use ethereal interception when he uses Da Jump, but I'm not sure.

Or take an annihilation barge. You can basically kite him all day with it, and even if they do charge it, you can just fly away. This is actually a match up that annihilation barges really like, as its all melee based with no good saves.

Melee against orks ? Very bad idea. 30 boyz can unleash up to 150 (!) attacks. 90 or 120 is more likely, still enough to kill anything we might put against them. I laughed when i read cheap CC specialists, we dont have any. An ork boy, that is a cheap CC specialist, 6 pts. for a model with 4 attacks hitting on 3+. I dont have flayed ones or deathmarks, both are not worth their points.

Will all 30 get to attack though? I'm pretty sure that models can only attack 2" from anyone who's engaged in 8th ed.

And that's on the charge. If they get charged, or if they get shot first, that would reduce a bit of their combat effectiveness.

On paper its scary, but that's only in ideal circumstances. Tactics are supposed to ensure those circumstances are not ideal for them.

Depending on how you deploy, you could probably get away with a small screen. Putting your army in a bottleneck might help. Against a numerically superior force, you don't want to get surrounded, or take the fight to them.
Knowing orks, they will want to get in melee or have short ranged weapons. So find (or make) a nice defensible position, take the best anti-infantry weapons you can find, and hope they'll hold.
In short, just re-enact Rorke's Drift.

Simple, max scarabs to screen a max squad of immortals with tessla. Overlord with veil. 6 deathmarks in deep strike. Let him get t1. Its important. He will da jump his boys into your scarabs and wipe them out, but thats fine. Use the crystal to move your immortals away and up into his weirdboys range and unload. Dead boy and your all the way on his side of the table. He now has to walk back to you. Drop deathmarks in to finish his boss, use overload to help with staff of light as needed, and just wittle him away now. Profit. Use whatever dynasty you like

TBH, I just made a boy spam list based on OP's parameters....the best they can do is 2x30 boys when taking a stock Warboss and Weirdboy with 0 upgrades.

Running
OL
1x5 Scarabs
2x10 Immortals

Is your best bet. Pop Phaeron's will turn 1, give both squads MWBD, and then shoot each boy squad, you should pretty easily wipe them out. Using Sautehk specifically for methodical destruction after 1 squad has fired can make your dudes proc tesla on 4's....it would be devastating.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Will all 30 get to attack though? I'm pretty sure that models can only attack 2" from anyone who's engaged in 8th ed.

With 25mm bases four ranks can fight. That could be all 30. Even with "only" 20 boyz its still 80 attacks.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Depending on how you deploy, you could probably get away with a small screen. Putting your army in a bottleneck might help. Against a numerically superior force, you don't want to get surrounded, or take the fight to them.
Knowing orks, they will want to get in melee or have short ranged weapons. So find (or make) a nice defensible position, take the best anti-infantry weapons you can find, and hope they'll hold.
In short, just re-enact Rorke's Drift.

I dont know if i face 2*30 boyz, could be something else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iGuy91 wrote:
TBH, I just made a boy spam list based on OP's parameters....the best they can do is 2x30 boys when taking a stock Warboss and Weirdboy with 0 upgrades.

Running
OL
1x5 Scarabs
2x10 Immortals

Is your best bet. Pop Phaeron's will turn 1, give both squads MWBD, and then shoot each boy squad, you should pretty easily wipe them out. Using Sautehk specifically for methodical destruction after 1 squad has fired can make your dudes proc tesla on 4's....it would be devastating.

I came up with the same list. I only have 3 CP. MWBD on two units and MD would use them all up. But if that wipes out an entire unit of 30 boyz then its worth it.

 p5freak wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Will all 30 get to attack though? I'm pretty sure that models can only attack 2" from anyone who's engaged in 8th ed.

With 25mm bases four ranks can fight. That could be all 30. Even with "only" 20 boyz its still 80 attacks.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Depending on how you deploy, you could probably get away with a small screen. Putting your army in a bottleneck might help. Against a numerically superior force, you don't want to get surrounded, or take the fight to them.
Knowing orks, they will want to get in melee or have short ranged weapons. So find (or make) a nice defensible position, take the best anti-infantry weapons you can find, and hope they'll hold.
In short, just re-enact Rorke's Drift.

I dont know if i face 2*30 boyz, could be something else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iGuy91 wrote:
TBH, I just made a boy spam list based on OP's parameters....the best they can do is 2x30 boys when taking a stock Warboss and Weirdboy with 0 upgrades.

Running
OL
1x5 Scarabs
2x10 Immortals

Is your best bet. Pop Phaeron's will turn 1, give both squads MWBD, and then shoot each boy squad, you should pretty easily wipe them out. Using Sautehk specifically for methodical destruction after 1 squad has fired can make your dudes proc tesla on 4's....it would be devastating.

I came up with the same list. I only have 3 CP. MWBD on two units and MD would use them all up. But if that wipes out an entire unit of 30 boyz then its worth it.

It should handily. Its near impossible for a squad of 30 to claim cover. With MWBD you should get something like 35 hits on 20 shots, 24ish wounds, probably 20 killed in a squad. Do it to both squads, and then even mob rule can't save them turn 1 since their leadership won't be sky-high, and with 20 casualties, the rest of the unit flees to morale. With Methodical Destruction, the math gets even nastier. You might straight kill 1 mob, and then neuter the other.

10 immortals with MWBD clears 17 boys. 20 boys with mephrekh. The following overwatch kills another 5-7. The unit suffers from morale after that if I'm not mistaken. At that point the immortal unit has made its points back likely. If you successfully screened with scarabs first, then the immortals are ready to take on the other squad of boys too.

SO my solution to big monsters has been the voidreaper artefact. flat 3 damage. wounding auto on 2s. It has made killing canifexes super easy in cc

mhalko1 wrote:
SO my solution to big monsters has been the voidreaper artefact. flat 3 damage. wounding auto on 2s. It has made killing canifexes super easy in cc

Not a bad choice. Warscythes are a good bet in general.
Scarabs throw out a lot of attacks and wound on 5s, and can throw d3 MW on top of it.
Tbh, i'd rather handle them at range.
Wraiths can do the trick, with the +1 STR strat, they can strike at STR 7, get a decent amount of attacks, 2 dmg apiece, and ap-2. with a 3++ to weather the return attacks.

mhalko1 wrote:
SO my solution to big monsters has been the voidreaper artefact. flat 3 damage. wounding auto on 2s. It has made killing canifexes super easy in cc

Carnifex != Big monsters

KurtAngle2 wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
SO my solution to big monsters has been the voidreaper artefact. flat 3 damage. wounding auto on 2s. It has made killing canifexes super easy in cc

Carnifex =! Big monsters

But it is though?
I mean, its a T7 monster with what, 8 wounds? That's like, 3 times the size of a necron?
Are we really at a sad point where carnifexes are no longer considered big because of LoW nonsense?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
SO my solution to big monsters has been the voidreaper artefact. flat 3 damage. wounding auto on 2s. It has made killing canifexes super easy in cc

Carnifex =! Big monsters

But it is though?
I mean, its a T7 monster with what, 8 wounds? That's like, 3 times the size of a necron?
Are we really at a sad point where carnifexes are no longer considered big because of LoW nonsense?

...yeah basically

Trygons are the better assault monster. Carnifexen are better as gun platforms nowadays.

We have enough answers to T7 IMO, its more the T8 where we get to the "only destroyers, DDAs and HDs" issue

iGuy91 wrote:
Wraiths can do the trick, with the +1 STR strat, they can strike at STR 7, get a decent amount of attacks, 2 dmg apiece, and ap-2. with a 3++ to weather the return attacks.

You cant use the S+1 strat on wraith.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iGuy91 wrote:

We have enough answers to T7 IMO, its more the T8 where we get to the "only destroyers, DDAs and HDs" issue

An overlord with voidscythe has S10. Another annoyance, we have only one model that can get above S9 with a CCW.

I took my Spearhead/Outrider list to a tournament last weekend and ended up coming 5th out of 40. Really happy with the result and it kind of justified my belief in ignoring troop choices and battalions. Necrons can actually be fantastic at taking out armour and T8; people just waste their points on useless units and so have nothing left over to deal with those.

 Bosskelot wrote:
I took my Spearhead/Outrider list to a tournament last weekend and ended up coming 5th out of 40. Really happy with the result and it kind of justified my belief in ignoring troop choices and battalions. Necrons can actually be fantastic at taking out armour and T8; people just waste their points on useless units and so have nothing left over to deal with those.

Could you post a list? I'm curious.

DudleyGrim wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
I took my Spearhead/Outrider list to a tournament last weekend and ended up coming 5th out of 40. Really happy with the result and it kind of justified my belief in ignoring troop choices and battalions. Necrons can actually be fantastic at taking out armour and T8; people just waste their points on useless units and so have nothing left over to deal with those.

Could you post a list? I'm curious.

It was 1.5k points but 2k would be very easy to add on to.

Sautekh Outrider Detachment

Cryptek, Abyssal Staff, Chronometron, Warlord with the Immortal Pride Trait

10x Tesla Immortals

6x Destroyers

4x Scarabs

4x Scarabs

9x Tomb Blades with Scopes, Vanes and Gauss Blasters

Nihilalkh Spearhead

Lord with Hyperphase Sword

2x Heavy Destroyers

2x Heavy Destroyers

1x DDA

At 2k points I switch some stuff around, mainly getting rid of the immortals, adding in a 2nd tomb blade unit with tesla, another DDA, increasing the H.D's to 3-strong units and some minor scarab number tweaks. What's really nice about the army is that it only has 5 CP but doesn't require any more. I was frequently getting to turn 5 or 6 with 1 cp left over. If you really hate the slow speed and low range of Necrons this army just doesn't that issue at all. Tomb Blades can hit anything they like, DDA's and H.D's shoot from across the board and Sautekh allows the Destroyers to advance and shoot if they need to. Excellent for taking objectives, so much Fly keyword means melee armies aren't that scary if they don't do sufficient damage to you and a prevalence of T5 hurts other armies; the Tomb Blades especially were a nightmare for a Tau army.

I'm going to guess that it includes either a Sautekh/Mephrit Outrder with at least a Cloaktek, a full unit of Destroyers, and two full/close to full units of Tomb Blades, either with Tesla or a mix of Tesla and Gauss, likely with Shieldvanes, maybe with Looms or Scopes, and scarabs filling gaps Then a Nihilak Spearhead of 2 DDAs and something else, maybe a Pylon, and either another Cryptek for healing, or a cheap lord.

Only guessing that because I tried making a battalion-less force a few days back, and that was about the best rough framework I could think of

EDIT: Eh, turns out I was close-ish in some respects.

 Bosskelot wrote:

It was 1.5k points but 2k would be very easy to add on to.

Spoiler:

Sautekh Outrider Detachment

Cryptek, Abyssal Staff, Chronometron, Warlord with the Immortal Pride Trait

10x Tesla Immortals

6x Destroyers

4x Scarabs

4x Scarabs

9x Tomb Blades with Scopes, Vanes and Gauss Blasters

Nihilalkh Spearhead

Lord with Hyperphase Sword

2x Heavy Destroyers

2x Heavy Destroyers

1x DDA

At 2k points I switch some stuff around, mainly getting rid of the immortals, adding in a 2nd tomb blade unit with tesla, another DDA, increasing the H.D's to 3-strong units and some minor scarab number tweaks. What's really nice about the army is that it only has 5 CP but doesn't require any more. I was frequently getting to turn 5 or 6 with 1 cp left over. If you really hate the slow speed and low range of Necrons this army just doesn't that issue at all. Tomb Blades can hit anything they like, DDA's and H.D's shoot from across the board and Sautekh allows the Destroyers to advance and shoot if they need to. Excellent for taking objectives, so much Fly keyword means melee armies aren't that scary if they don't do sufficient damage to you and a prevalence of T5 hurts other armies; the Tomb Blades especially were a nightmare for a Tau army.

Very interesting indeed! Will definitely have to try out a list like that soon. If you dont mind me asking, how often did the Sautekh Code come into use and to what effect? I was thinking switching it up to Nephrekh. It would allow the Scarabs to move faster and the Chronotek to keep up with Destroyers as well as the Tomb Blades if they didnt mind moving 3" less. I would imagine a full unit of Tomb Blades with 3+/5++ and a 4+ RP would be devastating with a list like this, especially in a 2k point game where you are planning to run two full units.

Any real competitive list will tear this list apart. Like a 2k guard list with 18 flame throwing vehicles, doing 27D6 automatic hits per turn at 16 or 22", re-rolling 18 dice, or a 2k tsons list that is capable of 36 MW per turn.

Necron_Mason wrote:


Very interesting indeed! Will definitely have to try out a list like that soon. If you dont mind me asking, how often did the Sautekh Code come into use and to what effect? I was thinking switching it up to Nephrekh. It would allow the Scarabs to move faster and the Chronotek to keep up with Destroyers as well as the Tomb Blades if they didnt mind moving 3" less. I would imagine a full unit of Tomb Blades with 3+/5++ and a 4+ RP would be devastating with a list like this, especially in a 2k point game where you are planning to run two full units.

Bear in mind the Chronometron does not work on Tomb Blades since they aren't infantry.

Sautekh is there so that the TB's and Destroyers can advance and still shoot if need be and also so I can get access to the Abyssal Staff which is, in my opinion, the best relic in the codex. I can potentially use the Sautekh Stratagem too but with only 5 cp's I'm not in a great hurry to use that and I haven't used it a single time yet. Nephrekh is really good on Tesla Immortals, Scarabs and Wraiths for sure but with this list it's fast enough as is. The scarabs were mostly just used to hide and sit on objectives, occasionally moving forward to tie up a unit of scouts or something. Also I was continually surprised at how my Destroyers were able to avoid being targeted; in normal Necron lists you only have like 1 Destroyer Unit and 1 Wraith unit for your opponent to focus on because you've spent so many points on Infantry. With this list because I had so many high priority threats for people to deal with the Destroyers were able to get away with murder pretty much and so in that respect I may even get rid of the Chronometron.

 p5freak wrote:
Any real competitive list will tear this list apart. Like a 2k guard list with 18 flame throwing vehicles, doing 27D6 automatic hits per turn at 16 or 22", re-rolling 18 dice, or a 2k tsons list that is capable of 36 MW per turn.

True, but I'd like to know a Necron list that can stand up to that ^^

 Bosskelot wrote:
Also I was continually surprised at how my Destroyers were able to avoid being targeted; in normal Necron lists you only have like 1 Destroyer Unit and 1 Wraith unit for your opponent to focus on because you've spent so many points on Infantry.

I think your opponents need to work on target priority then, because in my experience destroyers, no matter how many you have, will always draw the most fire.
Also the fact that infantry are so bad you're better off not taking them is not a sign of good army design. Everything in the army should have a function.

Doctoralex wrote:
True, but I'd like to know a Necron list that can stand up to that ^^

There is no necron list that can stand up to that.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I think your opponents need to work on target priority then, because in my experience destroyers, no matter how many you have, will always draw the most fire.
Also the fact that infantry are so bad you're better off not taking them is not a sign of good army design. Everything in the army should have a function.

Yes, sounds like unexperienced opponents, at least against necrons. Destroyers are the usually the main target. And tesla or gauss immortals arent bad.

Eh, I think they are a still a bit too much points wise. They have good guns, but they feel surprisingly fragile. I'd like to see them have their T5 back and warriors get 3+ again.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:
Also I was continually surprised at how my Destroyers were able to avoid being targeted; in normal Necron lists you only have like 1 Destroyer Unit and 1 Wraith unit for your opponent to focus on because you've spent so many points on Infantry.

I think your opponents need to work on target priority then, because in my experience destroyers, no matter how many you have, will always draw the most fire.
Also the fact that infantry are so bad you're better off not taking them is not a sign of good army design. Everything in the army should have a function.

The thing is though is that I could afford to lose them. In my older lists if my destroyers got wiped in one turn suddenly my entire army's effectiveness dropped into nothing. My last couple of games have had the destroyers die, but there's still Tomb blades causing havoc to infantry and my heavier guns at the back of the board demolishing monsters and armour. We could argue about destroyers being better than tomb blades but 9-18 tomb blades rushing up the board in turn 1 and being in your face is something you HAVE to deal with. One of my recent games was against Nids, a guy who I've played lots and who knows how deadly destroyers can be and he got rid of them in the first 2 turns. I still absolutely demolished his army though even without them there.

Tomb blades IMO are out of meta. Too many damage2 guns. Tau riptides, imperial knights, IG plasmas, ravagers with desintegrators, dark reapers. That puts you in a spot where only armies without damage2 mass shooting is chaos (if they sont use obliterators and their knights), necrons and tyranids.

Nihilalkh Spearhead

Heavy Destroyers

...
I don't understand.

 skoffs wrote:

Nihilalkh Spearhead

Heavy Destroyers

...
I don't understand.

I think its just to fill in the slots. You need 3 HS+HQ for a spearhead.

 p5freak wrote:
Any real competitive list will tear this list apart. Like a 2k guard list with 18 flame throwing vehicles, doing 27D6 automatic hits per turn at 16 or 22", re-rolling 18 dice, or a 2k tsons list that is capable of 36 MW per turn.

Is this a thing competitive Guard are doing now? Which vehicles are doing it?

Also, 36 mortal wounds per turn out of Thousand Sons is extremely unlikely.

 p5freak wrote:

iGuy91 wrote:
Wraiths can do the trick, with the +1 STR strat, they can strike at STR 7, get a decent amount of attacks, 2 dmg apiece, and ap-2. with a 3++ to weather the return attacks.

You cant use the S+1 strat on wraith.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 iGuy91 wrote:

We have enough answers to T7 IMO, its more the T8 where we get to the "only destroyers, DDAs and HDs" issue

An overlord with voidscythe has S10. Another annoyance, we have only one model that can get above S9 with a CCW.

Vs non-vehicles, a couple models can get effective S16.

Nightbringer is one.
One of the following can take the voidreaper: Lord, Destroyer Lord, Overlord, CCB, Anrakyr, and Obyron

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Is this a thing competitive Guard are doing now? Which vehicles are doing it?

3*3 hellhounds and 3*3 FW artemia pattern hellhounds. Thats 1638 pts. not violating the same datasheet only 3 times rule.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Also, 36 mortal wounds per turn out of Thousand Sons is extremely unlikely.

No, its not. A FW chaos decimator with twin soulburner petard does 4D3 shots, hitting on 3+, with re-rolling 1s from another unit. Each successful hit is 1 automatic MW. Yes, no need to roll if they wound. Three of these do at least 18 MW in one turn. Add magnus with his 2D6 smite and some more psykers, and 36 MW in one turn is possible.

 p5freak wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Is this a thing competitive Guard are doing now? Which vehicles are doing it?

3*3 hellhounds and 3*3 FW artemia pattern hellhounds. Thats 1638 pts. not violating the same datasheet only 3 times rule.

The important part was "Is this a thing competitive Guard are doing now?" Show me the competitive guard tournament lists running 18 hellhounds.

 p5freak wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

Also, 36 mortal wounds per turn out of Thousand Sons is extremely unlikely.

No, its not. A FW chaos decimator with twin soulburner petard does 4D3 shots, hitting on 3+, with re-rolling 1s from another unit. Each successful hit is 1 automatic MW. Yes, no need to roll if they wound. Three of these do at least 18 MW in one turn. Add magnus with his 2D6 smite and some more psykers, and 36 MW in one turn is possible.

First, 4x3=12 not 18. Secondly, I said unlikely and it still is. A decimator with two soulburner petards is 270 points. No one is going to consistently win with spending 810 points on 3 dreadnoughts. Thirdly, Decimators can't be Thousand Sons.

I misread, sorry

 p5freak wrote:

Skhmt wrote:

One of the following can take the voidreaper: Lord, Destroyer Lord, Overlord, CCB, Anrakyr, and Obyron

You are so wrong. No named character can get a voidscythe. Their wargear is fixed. Lord, destroyer lord and CCB cant use the voidscythe. You are mistaking it with the warscythe. The overlord is the only model who can use the voidscythe, which is pathetic.

Read his post again. He said Voidreaper, not voidscythe. The only requirement for the voidreaper is that the model must be armed with a warscythe OR voidscythe.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

The important part was "Is this a thing competitive Guard are doing now?" Show me the competitive guard tournament lists running 18 hellhounds.

Ok, i dont know if someone plays, or played it competitively, but its certainly possible.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

First, 4x3=12 not 18. Secondly, I said unlikely and it still is. A decimator with two soulburner petards is 270 points. No one is going to consistently win with spending 810 points on 3 dreadnoughts.

A D3 is 2 hits on average. 4*2=8. Hitting on 3+ re-rolling 1s means at least 6 hits. 3 decimators * 6 hits = 18 MW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:


Read his post again. He said Voidreaper, not voidscythe. The only requirement for the voidreaper is that the model must be armed with a warscythe OR voidscythe.

True. Which is pretty useless against vehicles. Still, named characters cannot use either warscythe, voidscythe, nor voidreaper.

 p5freak wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

The important part was "Is this a thing competitive Guard are doing now?" Show me the competitive guard tournament lists running 18 hellhounds.

Ok, i dont know if someone plays, or played it competitively, but its certainly possible.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

First, 4x3=12 not 18. Secondly, I said unlikely and it still is. A decimator with two soulburner petards is 270 points. No one is going to consistently win with spending 810 points on 3 dreadnoughts.

A D3 is 2 hits on average. 4*2=8. Hitting on 3+ re-rolling 1s means at least 6 hits. 3 decimators * 6 hits = 18 MW.

What you should have said here was "I was wrong" not moved the goalposts. You said 3 Decimators did a minimum of 18, not an average. In fact, their minimum is 0.

You also responded to the question of "Is this something Guard do" like it was, instead of just possible.

Bad faith arguments are not going to get you far in life.

I'm not going to comment on your nonsense any longer in this thread about Necron tactics.

Yeah.. it's perfectly fine to come clean if you blow it

 skoffs wrote:

Nihilalkh Spearhead

Heavy Destroyers

...
I don't understand.

I need to fill the detachment out somehow and I will take 2 DDA's that benefit from the Nihilakh code.

Thank you for posting your list Bosskelot, it looks like a lot of fun, I think I am going to try something similar out to see if I like it. Debating on what to use to fill up my 3rd Heavy slot (only have 2 DDAs and own 0 Heavy Destroyers). Might try a counts as Transcendant C'tan.

C'tan aren't heavy slots.

 Brymm wrote:
C'tan aren't heavy slots.

Actually, they are. Nightbringer and Deceiver are elites and named characters.
The Transcendent C'tan is heavy and generic.

My mind has just been rewired.

Makes me want to try out some different lists now!

I have something to unrewire your brain. My 2×10 Tesla immortals buffed with MWBD each scored 64 hits on an ork trukk. So much for our standard troops are bad, not worth using.

 Drider wrote:
I'm thinking about getting into Necrons. I've got the necrons from the forgebane box and have arranged to split a box with a friend for another lot of them. I also think i'm going to pick up a start collecting box as it seems good value, I think all that together will give me a selection of decent/mainstay units, so i'll probably throw some cash on picking up a few other purchases to fill out a list.

I've got very little experience with them on the table, only 1 game and that was pre-codex, so it would be great if you guys could take a look at my list. I'm aiming for a 1750 list suitable for ITC champion missions. Without further a do, here's my first crack at building a necron list.


Battalion Detachment
Dynastic Heirlooms: Dynastic Heirlooms: 1 Extra Artefact (-1CP)
Dynasty Choice: Dynasty: Novokh

+ HQ +
Catacomb Command Barge: Artefact: Lightning Field, Resurrection Orb, Tesla Cannon, Warscythe
. Warlord: Warlord Trait (Codex 5): Implacable Conqueror
Cryptek: Artefact: The Veil of Darkness, Chronometron, Staff of Light

+ Troops +
Immortals: 9x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
Immortals: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
Necron Warriors: 20x Necron Warrior

+ Elites +
C'tan Shard of the Deceiver
Lychguard: Hyperphase Sword and Dispersion Shield, 10x Lychguard

+ Fast Attack +
Canoptek Wraiths: 6x Canoptek Wraith

Remove a Warrior so your opponent gets 3 for Reaper instead of 4. Take Anrakyr instead of the CCB, I understand if that isn't feasible because of what you own, but I think it would be more competitive. Read up on some melee tactics online to get the most out of your Lychguard, if you just push them into one unit at a time you'll lose.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
the difference in being able to spit out a potential 24 wounds vs a potential 48 wounds with its main weapon alone is massive, and would probably warrant either a cut to the number of attacks, or a price hike.

A DDA can cause 56 wounds to a titan, it's so OP!!! Even at D2 the average damage output of an AB against a vehicle/monster is very lacklustre. ABs are bad in general and useless at killing almost every vehicle due to hit modifiers that flimsy Eldar vehicles get cancelling Tesla and heavy vehicles having 10 times at much durability as last edition. The only thing it would really do is make fluffy Ork players who use Nobz flip tables, not be the new OP.

 Rismonite wrote:
Hello! I have a friend who has both Start Collecting Necrons boxes.

What should they do with the other two Overlords?

What is an ideal theme to build for with beyond those two boxes?

How does MWBD and the Triarch Stalker debuff interact?

This person is considering more warriors and destroyers, this good?

Thanks for your time

Get 40 more Tesla Immortals and use them all as regular Overlords. Or convert one into a Cryptek with the Triarch Praetorian bits from Forgebane if you can get ahold of that, make the other one into a Lord somehow.

Get another 10 Tesla Immortals and run Mephrit. Get Destroyers, Wraiths and Scarabs and make an offensive list.

Hit on 2s re-rolling 1s. 35/36 shots hit.

Warriors are okay, I'd prefer more Immortals due to all the Overlords he has since Tesla Immortals benefit more from MWBD than Warriors. If he uses Ebay he should buy Warriors that include Scarabs since those are very good as well. Destroyers are amazing, you might not use them every game but I don't think you'll regret buying them... before they get nerfed. Advise him not to spam the best units until we get the point update, would be sad to see ABs suddenly doing a bazillion (possible) damage and then having invested all your money in Destroyers.

I won an ITC game with Anrakyr and Szeras against Astra Militarum with one of the new big Knights. He charged forwards with his 3 Hellhounds, I charged them and destroyed all but one, he had nothing to shoot turn 2. He gave up when he had nothing but the Knight and a some Basilisks left. Don't remember how many times I forgot MWBD and Szeras, but I think we were playing really casual and my opponent allowed to do it anyway. I'm not sure if I would have won if the game had continued.

Played a turn or two against an Ork player, he quit after a turn or two against Anrakyr and Szeras. Not much of a game, but I'm pretty sure the game was over regardless.

Played a game against a different Ork player, he surrendered turn 3 or 4, didn't make his charge T1 with Da Jump and I wiped out two or three units each turn and he did no damage to me.

Played a game against Custodes with Guilliman with Szeras and Anrakyr, forgot to DS my Destroyers, Szeras, forgot to generate objectives before moving, moved badly, surrendered.

Played a Maelstrom game against Guilliman with Anrakyr and Szeras, a little bit of Ultramarines firepower and then two big squads of BA Death Company. Death Company got screened and shot and I had more firepower left after the first few turns than he did, he surrendered around turn 4 or 5 because I had 13 VP to 0. I used Szeras' ability once.

A bit offtopic but how do you guys feel on Killteam for Necrons. Since the stuff has been leaked (kinda) i feel like with all the -1 to hit Tesla will be nearly useless und the low durability could aswell be the bane of this game.

Biasn wrote:
A bit offtopic but how do you guys feel on Killteam for Necrons. Since the stuff has been leaked (kinda) i feel like with all the -1 to hit Tesla will be nearly useless und the low durability could aswell be the bane of this game.

Tesla is going to suck, for sure, but I think Necrons are otherwise in a pretty good position. Reanimation Protocols in KT is amazing and Necrons are going to be largely immune to Nerve tests with ld10.

Yeah, RP in KT actually looks pretty strong, unlike in 8th ed.
Deathmarks might be useful too in KT. Can't go wrong with a sniper.

DudleyGrim wrote:
Thank you for posting your list Bosskelot, it looks like a lot of fun, I think I am going to try something similar out to see if I like it. Debating on what to use to fill up my 3rd Heavy slot (only have 2 DDAs and own 0 Heavy Destroyers). Might try a counts as Transcendant C'tan.

More than anything else I have a lot of fun playing it, not just because I win with it lots. It's fast and mobile and puts out tons of damage.

 vict0988 wrote:

A DDA can cause 56 wounds to a titan, it's so OP!!!

Look, I quit at the start of 6th, so all this ridiculousness is still very new to me. Why not drop the attitude, huh?

Yeah, if I run a kill team for Necrons its gonna be 3-4 Immortals with Gauss, and 1-2 Deathmarks imo

Modifiers being moved from armor bonuses to to hit modifiers is gonna make tesla worthless. Womp Womp.

Wait. Won't to hit modifiers also mean that snipers are gonna have an awful time ever managing to get a mortal wound? I believe since its a 6+, a minus 1 prevents mortal wounds, just like it prevents tesla from proccing

 iGuy91 wrote:
Yeah, if I run a kill team for Necrons its gonna be 3-4 Immortals with Gauss, and 1-2 Deathmarks imo

Modifiers being moved from armor bonuses to to hit modifiers is gonna make tesla worthless. Womp Womp.

Wait. Won't to hit modifiers also mean that snipers are gonna have an awful time ever managing to get a mortal wound? I believe since its a 6+, a minus 1 prevents mortal wounds, just like it prevents tesla from proccing

I'd assume the Sniper specialists get something that would let them ignore that -1 (otherwise there'd be no point in taking them).

For Necron models, we don't know if the KT points per model are going to be the same as the codex points per model, do we?
If they do remain the same I was thinking this might be worth trying out- As far as I could work it, that would give me the best guys-to-points ratio.
That gives me at least one of each to see how they run.
I can see if I want to switch out a FO for another Immortal (or the Immortals for more FOs) depending on how they perform.

 skoffs wrote:

 iGuy91 wrote:
Yeah, if I run a kill team for Necrons its gonna be 3-4 Immortals with Gauss, and 1-2 Deathmarks imo

Modifiers being moved from armor bonuses to to hit modifiers is gonna make tesla worthless. Womp Womp.

Wait. Won't to hit modifiers also mean that snipers are gonna have an awful time ever managing to get a mortal wound? I believe since its a 6+, a minus 1 prevents mortal wounds, just like it prevents tesla from proccing

I'd assume the Sniper specialists get something that would let them ignore that -1 (otherwise there'd be no point in taking them).

For Necron models, we don't know if the KT points per model are going to be the same as the codex points per model, do we?
If they do remain the same I was thinking this might be worth trying out-

Spoiler:

• Deathmark (19 pts)
• Flayed One (17 pts)
• Flayed One (17 pts)
• Immortal (17 pts)
• Immortal (17 pts)
• Warrior (12 pts)
Total = 99 pts

As far as I could work it, that would give me the best guys-to-points ratio.
That gives me at least one of each to see how they run.
I can see if I want to switch out a FO for another Immortal (or the Immortals for more FOs) depending on how they perform.

Apparently Flayed Ones will be 10 pts and Immortals will be 16
I hope Flayed Ones are 10 points in CA. That looks like a much fairer price point than 17. Warriors should probably be 10 as well.
Warriors have the same stat line as a flayed one, but they have a gun. Flayed Ones don't have a gun, but they deep strike. Seems balanced to me.

I don't see why you would take warriors in a kill team though. For 4-5 more points, you get a model with a better save and a better gun.

KT Value if i remember correctly
Warriors 12
Immos 16
FO 10
DM 13-15ish (cant remember them)

I played this list vs a custodes army (was designed to battle imperial knights that I had lost badly against):



It went ok vs custodes and I only lost because of a few wrong moves, the list was fine.

I did find that the Pylon was very weak against anything but his bikes.
The invul save and very few negated it, plus I placed it in a corner to make him split his guys, but it just ended up costing me the 5++ bubble (even though it wouldn't have mattered much).
---

Unless you are running Imotekh or someone specific reason for Saukteh, then I find the extra D6 range on the advance quite useless. I really don't get the hype around Sautekh.
The abyssal staff is D3 mortal wounds, but that is so rarely useful within 12".

--

Anyway, how are people beating the melee knight meta?

I faced a list like this:
1 regular knight with BC and Gatling
2 armigers with auto-spam-cannons

3 melee knights with 2+ to hit, reroll and missile pods.

I really had to use the ruins to hide in to even have a chance. They were in my face on top of turn 2 and started wrecking anything in their way.

Knights and armigers are OP². Its unlikely for necrons to beat a knight list. All you can do is to hide on the second or third floor of ruins, melee knights must play a stratagem to attack you.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I don't see why you would take warriors in a kill team though. For 4-5 more points, you get a model with a better save and a better gun.

Yes, but if you don't have enough points left to fit in the 4-5 more points guy but *do* have enough for the Warrior, it's better than just not using the points at all, no?

Biasn wrote:
KT Value if i remember correctly
Warriors 12
Immos 16
FO 10
DM 13-15ish (cant remember them)

Where are you guys getting your info from?

There was an unboxing vid on youtube , but it got taken down... he flipped throu the whole book , was hard to see anything but the points were pretty readable

Biasn wrote:
There was an unboxing vid on youtube , but it got taken down... he flipped throu the whole book , was hard to see anything but the points were pretty readable

What's the game like and why is it different this time?

 Bosskelot wrote:

DudleyGrim wrote:
Thank you for posting your list Bosskelot, it looks like a lot of fun, I think I am going to try something similar out to see if I like it. Debating on what to use to fill up my 3rd Heavy slot (only have 2 DDAs and own 0 Heavy Destroyers). Might try a counts as Transcendant C'tan.

More than anything else I have a lot of fun playing it, not just because I win with it lots. It's fast and mobile and puts out tons of damage.

That is why I like it, I've been noticing with my normal battalion lists that I am relying very heavily on Veil of Darkness or The Deceiver to get any sort of mobility on my troops, I think this might be a fun alternative.

Just had a fun 2v2 game with Grey Knights and my Crons vs Ultramarines and Tau. Big slugfest. We focused the Tau pretty hard, and had most of them pretty well dead. But they are quite good at killing doomsday arks with HYMPs.

Regardless, actually, my C'tan Shard of the nightbringer (made it into assault with Broadsides w/o dying, and had a lot of killing left to do by game end, and 3x10 tesla immortals were the stars of the show, keeping them high and tight. For the first time ever, my destroyers got to fire, but did not kill their targets while using EP. Was using Nephrekh Dynasty.

Biasn wrote:
There was an unboxing vid on youtube , but it got taken down... he flipped throu the whole book , was hard to see anything but the points were pretty readable

Well, if there really are points decreases this would be massive for us.
If Flayed Ones end being the same price as Warriors but take a hit in performance I think I'd still be okay with that (basically make them CC equivalent Warriors).

Either way, really REALLY gotta find those screenshots of the points page.

[edit] Awesome, found them- Also, looks like Flayed Ones still have reroll failed wounds, so for that price I'll definitely be taking some.

Now the only thing we'd need to find out is whether upgrading your guys will cost points.
If not, I'm thinking a team of 4 Immortals with a Deathmark + a couple Flayed Ones for 99 points could be pretty good. (alternatively, depending on whether snipers will get penalized for shots from more than half distance, 5 Immortals + 2 Flayed Ones for 100 could be worth it). I'm not seeing much point in taking Warriors at all, yet.

Why would you assume kill team points translated into 40k points?

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Why would you assume kill team points translated into 40k points?

Because Warriors cost the exact same?

I'm more curious why you think Flayed Ones ever had AP -1?

 vict0988 wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Why would you assume kill team points translated into 40k points?

Because Warriors cost the exact same?

I'm more curious why you think Flayed Ones ever had AP -1?

Oh wait, yeah, what was I confusing them with?
(sorry, never use FO)

 Avatar 720 wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

A DDA can cause 56 wounds to a titan, it's so OP!!!

Look, I quit at the start of 6th, so all this ridiculousness is still very new to me. Why not drop the attitude, huh?

Why are you commenting on what is or is not OP if you don't understand that possible damage is irrelevant and that what matters is the average damage output compared to the points cost of the unit? Sorry if I hurt your feelings buddy (not sarcastic (not double or triple sarcastic either)), but if you're going to discuss whether or not a change is fair I think it's okay to request a certain amount of knowledge about theoryhammer otherwise we can't really have a constructive argument.

The chances of GW changing Dynasties, Stratagems, C'tan Powers, Warlord Traits, Relics, unit and weapon profiles or abilities through errata is very low.

So 4x immortals , 2x flayed ones 1 x deathmark. for me to start.

COLD CASH wrote:
So 4x immortals , 2x flayed ones 1 x deathmark. for me to start.

Yep, same with my thinking above.
I have a feeling this is going to be the go-to for Necron Kill Teams until we can see how they play out.
(unless for some reason FOs end up being REALLY good and we start seeing packs of 10 on every table)

Anyway, now we just gotta figure out what the best combo of specialists and upgrades, etc. will be once the full rules are out.

Sadly, it looks like there's no way for deathmarks to TP into battle. They had that in SW:A, didn't they? And I thought I heard word about other rules that allowed for models to show up mid-battle, shame if our deep-strikers don't get any of that benefit, and we're left with four slow models.

All units that could deep strike lost the ability to do so in Kill Team. Even GSC had their cult ambush universal rule changed to just getting a chance at a scout move prior to the first battle round.

I've been reading the codex again to see if I've passed over anything awesome I've been missing after that C'tan debacle. What about Amaglated Targeting Data? On a reread, it doesn't stop fire from the Tesla Destructors and obviously can dish out a ton of mortal wounds.
If I wanted to go to with them to try it out, Mephrit for the Destructors? Or Sautek for MD?

Are you sure you read it correctly ? First it requires 3 doom scythes (615 pts.), one of the worst units we have. Then there is a 50% chance to do 3D3 MW to one or two units (66,7% if the unit(s) have more than 5 models), its highly unlikely that there are more units within 3". If one doom scythe is destroyed you cant use the stratagem. For 615 pts i would use a t. vault and something else. The vault will do lots of MW, thats for sure. I doubt the doom scythes will perform as good as the vault.

Compare the stratagem to Linebreaker Bombardment for SM and CSM. Very similar stratagems. Notice how nobody uses linebreaker bombardment or vindicators. That should tell you something.

The doom scythe strat is something that will work exactly once against a Guilliman gun line played by someone who knows nothing about Necrons. It is otherwise non-viable.

From the sounds of it close combat is quite good, so going by the deathguard batrep, you screen with your immortals and get the flayed ones into position to wreck face!

Who knows what the deathmark will be like.

COLD CASH wrote:
From the sounds of it close combat is quite good, so going by the deathguard batrep, you screen with your immortals and get the flayed ones into position to wreck face!

Who knows what the deathmark will be like.

What are you talking about?
What Deathguard batt rep?
Deathmarks be like in what?

I dunno. I've been pondering the Doom/Night Scythe(s). The ATD strat it's has potential,

Before i start Unless it's in an FAQ the SM linebreaker strat has a stipulation of units of 10+ models for the +1, making the necron version slightly better as it is only 5+ models, Factor in the the mobility difference and the model height advantage for drawing line of sight the necron version is a lot more 'usable'. The one advantage SM have is the fact that vindicators are dirt cheep in comparison to doom scythes.

Intermission for some quick back of the envelope math says that it's average expected wounds per target in the 'blast zone' is 3 mortal wounds. That's 0.5(% chance of hit disregarding +/-)*6(the average of 3d3)=3. Or a better way to think about it is that it has a 2/3 chance of doing 6 MW to units with 5 or more characters, 1/2 chance of doing 6 MW to non character units of less than 5 models and a 1/3 chance of doing 6 MW to characters. Factor in a CP reroll for the hit on a character and it's about 55% odds.

Now that we've established some sort of a base value for expected wounds for the ATD It's time to draw a comparison to the expected wounds of the Death Ray. Fortunately i already started doing some of the Mathhammer on this the other day.

Expected wound values are calculated as (#shots)*(hit chance)*(wound chance)*(chance of a failed save)*(chance of a failed FNP)*(weapon damage,(weapon damage cannot exceed models max wounds))
D6 and D3 values are expressed as 3.5 and 2, respectively,
MD is just a straight increase in BS,
Tesla is (number of shots/chance to proc*2) then put through the expected wounds formula at the, wounds chance, stage in addition to the weapons flat damage
TFA is calculated at (number of shots/6) then fed through the expected wounds formula in addition to the weapons flat calculation.

I through in the comparison for the D/N Scythe's tesla and the D/G ark (the volume of shots is set to rapid fire so just half the end value for single shot range) as well just to compare to a unit with a similar PPM and split weapons.

Ok, so, Assuming it's the start of the game, when you still have 3 of these things and you are shooting the death rays an 'optimal target' the same target it should just be a case of comparing the expected wounds *3, comparing that to the the value for ATD we worked out earlier and that should tell us how many units we'd have to get in the target zone of ATD to get more value from the stat than just shooting the normal weapon.
Worst case for the ATD is vs just shooting at a crisis suit equiv with MD. In which case they'd need to do more than 12.51 wounds which equates to hitting 5 units with ATD. That's not exactly spectacular.
More realistically, If you were shooting Rhinos or Razorbacks you'd have to do more than 9.33 wounds, so that's 4 targets. still not fantastic.
Most realistically, you want to take a chunk out of grouped troops or special/heavy weapon teams, something of that ilk, if you hit a unit you're getting value, any additional hit is a bonus.
Ironically though if you're shooting at a T6+ with a 3++ you'll only do 0.78 expected wounds so you'd actually be better off using ATD on a single target.

However the counter argument and something that is much harder to value is the impact of having that the impact of having some flyers with that sort of ability might help disperse characters and screens increasing the chance of your opponent making a mistake and you can swoop in and blap a badly positioned character.
Another thing to consider is you could use ATD to shoot through walls at units out of LOS as you target a spot on the battlefield rather than a specific unit.

Overall though I'd really like for Doom Scythes to be viable, but they're just too many points to justify. I think they'd need to come down by about 30 points to even be worth consideration.

Considering the rampant knight meta, should we consider putting a gauss pylon in our lists? It statistically 1 shots a knight with a 5++. We could protect things that would greatly appreciate a 5++ to survive like destroyers and even DDA(!) without need for a cryptek. I'm thinking we could easily create a castle around it and have wraiths and scarabs pushing up to tar pit and secure objectives. You could also use it to make your enemy knights player hold rotate ion shields by firing everything except the pylon into one knight and then blast another knight if he rotates or finish off the original knight if he doesn't. Just trying to find some salvation for Necrons against knights, the destroyers and DDA haven't really been cutting it...

Only gets a dynasty in a supreme command detachment.

As far a cron killteam was reading some guys simple batrep and he was saying using models to obscure your CC figs then let them charge.

COLD CASH wrote:
As far a cron killteam was reading some guys simple batrep and he was saying using models to obscure your CC figs then let them charge.

Got a link for that? I'd like to see what else might be gleaned.

I don't know what video COLD CASH is referring to but I have seen the rulebook and can confirm that literally any level of obscurity from terrain or other models (including your own models) counts as being concealed and confers a -1 to both the hit and injury rolls. There's a picture in the book of a Skitarii who has half of his base covered up by terrain to show just how little you need to be obscured to Be Obscured.

Extraneous details that stick out from the main body such as the gun and such still don't count, but you can expect models to be obscured more often than not.

 Drider wrote:
I dunno. I've been pondering the Doom/Night Scythe(s). The ATD strat it's has potential,

Before i start Unless it's in an FAQ the SM linebreaker strat has a stipulation of units of 10+ models for the +1, making the necron version slightly better as it is only 5+ models, Factor in the the mobility difference and the model height advantage for drawing line of sight the necron version is a lot more 'usable'. The one advantage SM have is the fact that vindicators are dirt cheep in comparison to doom scythes.

Intermission for some quick back of the envelope math says that it's average expected wounds per target in the 'blast zone' is 3 mortal wounds. That's 0.5(% chance of hit disregarding +/-)*6(the average of 3d3)=3. Or a better way to think about it is that it has a 2/3 chance of doing 6 MW to units with 5 or more characters, 1/2 chance of doing 6 MW to non character units of less than 5 models and a 1/3 chance of doing 6 MW to characters. Factor in a CP reroll for the hit on a character and it's about 55% odds.

Now that we've established some sort of a base value for expected wounds for the ATD It's time to draw a comparison to the expected wounds of the Death Ray. Fortunately i already started doing some of the Mathhammer on this the other day.

Expected wound values are calculated as (#shots)*(hit chance)*(wound chance)*(chance of a failed save)*(chance of a failed FNP)*(weapon damage,(weapon damage cannot exceed models max wounds))
D6 and D3 values are expressed as 3.5 and 2, respectively,
MD is just a straight increase in BS,
Tesla is (number of shots/chance to proc*2) then put through the expected wounds formula at the, wounds chance, stage in addition to the weapons flat damage
TFA is calculated at (number of shots/6) then fed through the expected wounds formula in addition to the weapons flat calculation.

I through in the comparison for the D/N Scythe's tesla and the D/G ark (the volume of shots is set to rapid fire so just half the end value for single shot range) as well just to compare to a unit with a similar PPM and split weapons.

Ok, so, Assuming it's the start of the game, when you still have 3 of these things and you are shooting the death rays an 'optimal target' the same target it should just be a case of comparing the expected wounds *3, comparing that to the the value for ATD we worked out earlier and that should tell us how many units we'd have to get in the target zone of ATD to get more value from the stat than just shooting the normal weapon.
Worst case for the ATD is vs just shooting at a crisis suit equiv with MD. In which case they'd need to do more than 12.51 wounds which equates to hitting 5 units with ATD. That's not exactly spectacular.
More realistically, If you were shooting Rhinos or Razorbacks you'd have to do more than 9.33 wounds, so that's 4 targets. still not fantastic.
Most realistically, you want to take a chunk out of grouped troops or special/heavy weapon teams, something of that ilk, if you hit a unit you're getting value, any additional hit is a bonus.
Ironically though if you're shooting at a T6+ with a 3++ you'll only do 0.78 expected wounds so you'd actually be better off using ATD on a single target.

However the counter argument and something that is much harder to value is the impact of having that the impact of having some flyers with that sort of ability might help disperse characters and screens increasing the chance of your opponent making a mistake and you can swoop in and blap a badly positioned character.
Another thing to consider is you could use ATD to shoot through walls at units out of LOS as you target a spot on the battlefield rather than a specific unit.

Overall though I'd really like for Doom Scythes to be viable, but they're just too many points to justify. I think they'd need to come down by about 30 points to even be worth consideration.

Amazing post!
Agreed that they are too pricey for what they can do, but would be great against the right targets or a very poorly positioned army. And again, it IS just the price that's the problem. Some units in 40k are only "good" because they are so points effective. That strat is realistically a one trick pony but then after that you still have 2-3 flyers zipping around that could uncork some high damage or lots of low AP S7 wounds.
If they were about the price of a Night Scythe, I'd be all over therm.
Again thanks for the great post.