I'm interested by the fact that 2 of the 3 lists were running a Gauss Pylon. Presumably specifically to counter knights. I'm wondering if that may have been more of a detriment rather than a boon. If you take Jessica Bowman for example, she didn't actually get paired Vs any lists that included Knights. How might she have done if the points for the Pylon were put into something else?
Is the Gauss Pylon a knee jerk reaction to counter knights and actually a trap unit?
Midtier? With allies we have factions: Imperium, Chaos, Eldar, Tyranids, Tau, Orks, Necrons. Between those we are in a worst shape together with Orks. Mainly cause of lack of allies.
If you go codex-by-codex, situation is better. But till soups are a thing don't think that it matters though.
-Sentinel- wrote: Midtier? With allies we have factions: Imperium, Chaos, Eldar, Tyranids, Tau, Orks, Necrons. Between those we are in a worst shape together with Orks. Mainly cause of lack of allies.
If you go codex-by-codex, situation is better. But till soups are a thing don't think that it matters though.
Those application is not supportedby my device
Maybe there is another way to see them?
You speak the truth.
As long as you have ZERO penalty to play soup, soup will be the best solution. If you cant soup bad for you.
Right now there is no reason in not going for soup apart from if you have nothing to soup with.
Drider wrote: I'm interested by the fact that 2 of the 3 lists were running a Gauss Pylon. Presumably specifically to counter knights. I'm wondering if that may have been more of a detriment rather than a boon. If you take Jessica Bowman for example, she didn't actually get paired Vs any lists that included Knights. How might she have done if the points for the Pylon were put into something else?
Is the Gauss Pylon a knee jerk reaction to counter knights and actually a trap unit?
Given that three of the top four lists had at least one knight in it (two imperial lists and one renegade) the Pylon is definitely not a knee jerk. Even if there was a theoretical Necron list that does amazing against everything else in the meta but loses to Knights it's pretty clear that losing to Knights means not getting very far in the tournament.
It's definitely unlucky that she prepped for knights and somehow managed to dodge all the knight lists, but if she had gone in with another list and performed better she would have eventually fought a knight list and lost, and we'd be talking about how she should have brought a pylon.
VS Orks: Leader: Nob /w Big Choppa
Heavy, Loota Spanner /w Mega Blasta
Demo, Spanner burna /w Mega Blasta
Combat, Kommando Nob/w Power Klaw
Burna Boy
Boy /w choppa
Kommando /w choppa
4x Gretchin
Game mode was Search & Rescue, basically 5 obj markers and one of them had a chance of becoming the critical objective.
After deploying, I managed to seize the initiative. I Readied most of my Immortals and Deathmarks. My idea was to keep the Flayed Ones close to my Immortals to act as counter-chargers.
However, then it was his move. This is were things got interesting; not having the initiative means you can adapt to your opponents move. He was able to put his Nob and Burna boy out of LoS from my Deathmark this way.
Shooting phase. My Immortals and Deathmark managed to put 2 wounds on each Loota and kill the Kommando. The +1 to hit from our stratagem and the comms is really handy.
Next turn, he charged my Flayed Ones and moved everything up. I stayed put and readied what I could.
However... this is where a big problem popped up. With charges now happening in the movement phase, it was possible for him to avoid my shooting completely! If you have the initiative, falling back is pointless. He will just charge you again anyway!
A Burna advanced and roasted one of my Flayed Ones (forgot the -1 in the injury roll for being obscured though...) Rest of the Ork shooting did nothing.
Then he charged my remaining Flayed One who was body-blocking tow Immortals. The Flayed One died to the Nob and he consolidated into two of my Immortals and locked them up for the rest of the game.
After that.... it pretty much went downhill. The Critical objective was right in the middle of the table, but there was no way I could get to it.
So, things that I learned: -If you have the initiative, be very mindful of enemy charges. Don't be afraid to move back as far as you can. You can even Retreat for an extra 3". Sure that means that said model can't shoot, but at least your models can....
-Flesh wounds are interesting. On one hand, they seemed to not hinder my opponent at all (see the Lootas who would be hitting on a 6 no matter what). However, it did start taking it's toll in the morale phase when I put several models out of action. Once models start getting Shaken, it can snowball and cause almost the entire enemy army to freeze.
-Melee combat is more important than ever, thanks to the earlier-mentioned ability to permanently stay locked in combat.
Necron units thoughts: -I'm not too sure about only taking Immortals and no Warriors. I just felt like I had so few bodies on the board. Not to mention that an Immortal is just as boned as a Warrior when he is locked in combat. Dunno, the AP-2 from the Gauss Blaster was overkill against Orks, maybe this is is better suited for fighting Astartes.
-Definitely should have kept my Flayed Ones more back and not let them take the charge. I need them to counter-charge enemy melee units in hopes of freeing up my other Immortals.
-The Deathmark was definitely a keeper. He either put a flesh wound or killed an Ork per turn (apart from the last one, when everything was locked in combat :frowning: )
-For my Flayed One specialist, I'm think I will make him a Combat specialist instead of a Zealot. Combat can last longer than 1 turn, unlike regular 40k. And you are less screwed of the enemy charges you.
You won't get that many bodies if you take warriors instead of immortals though.
If you drop all of your immortals and replace them with warriors, you'll get 5 warriors instead of 4 immortals. You'll be losing the 3+ save and the gauss blaster and get hardly anything in return. Replacing 4 3+ save gauss blasters with 5 4+ save flayers is not a good trade.
Even in killteam, warriors are overpriced.
Try mixing your weapons. You took pure gauss, and that's a not a good idea, as you need to be able to deal with a variety of targets. Try going 50/50 gauss and tesla.
Unrelated to BAO but I'm shelving my crons. Whether it's knights, aeldari, custodes, etc necrons cannot compete in the current meta. I don't mind being an underdog but I need a chance to actually win which just doesn't exist.
I'll keep a small ray of hope that CA in fall will remedy some pain but I think the army's mechanics just don't work at this point.
See, GW hates necrons. This is just like 5th ed, where they completely neutered gauss prior to the 5th ed codex release (which took 3 years after 5th dropped. Because GW hates us), meaning all it took was one dreadnaught in melee to screw us over. Now the dreadnaughts are bigger and our weapons are still mostly crap.
Hey Guys, I attended BAO and ended up placing 3rd among the Necrons (probably could've done better but made a pretty major mistake in the last game and ended up losing barely). Either way, while Necrons aren't in the best spot, I still believe that the pylon is probably our only hope of being competitive for now as all the necron lists that didn't bring a pylon placed even more poorly (in fact iirc one brought a tesseract vault and lost almost every game). Just my thoughts, I'm not some amazing player though so take this with a grain of salt.
Flayed Ones seem fairly solid in Kill Team. Still fairly slow and only 4+, but with how combat mechanics work and RP + Obscurity rules, they seem much more likely to get in, and their combat profile is fairly strong for the system (especially with Combat Specialist). Running 3 in my current loadout, fairly reliable in these small setups.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: See, GW hates necrons. This is just like 5th ed, where they completely neutered gauss prior to the 5th ed codex release (which took 3 years after 5th dropped. Because GW hates us), meaning all it took was one dreadnaught in melee to screw us over. Now the dreadnaughts are bigger and our weapons are still mostly crap.
They don't hate any faction. They mistakenly trusted the wrong people to playtest things. People who are incredibly biased, and honest about how they deliberately set out to make certain factions bad.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: See, GW hates necrons. This is just like 5th ed, where they completely neutered gauss prior to the 5th ed codex release (which took 3 years after 5th dropped. Because GW hates us), meaning all it took was one dreadnaught in melee to screw us over. Now the dreadnaughts are bigger and our weapons are still mostly crap.
They don't hate any faction. They mistakenly trusted the wrong people to playtest things. People who are incredibly biased, and honest about how they deliberately set out to make certain factions bad.
Wow really? Damn, guess I'll put them in the proverbial Book of Grudges instead.
You're talking about Front Line Gaming, right? Did they actually say that? That's pretty scummy.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: See, GW hates necrons. This is just like 5th ed, where they completely neutered gauss prior to the 5th ed codex release (which took 3 years after 5th dropped. Because GW hates us), meaning all it took was one dreadnaught in melee to screw us over. Now the dreadnaughts are bigger and our weapons are still mostly crap.
They don't hate any faction. They mistakenly trusted the wrong people to playtest things. People who are incredibly biased, and honest about how they deliberately set out to make certain factions bad.
Wow really? Damn, guess I'll put them in the proverbial Book of Grudges instead.
You're talking about Front Line Gaming, right? Did they actually say that? That's pretty scummy.
Supposedly that was a comment with Eldar. They're definitely the worst people to entrust with these decisions.
It isn't like there's terribly much to fix. Warriors and Flayed Ones getting a 3+ and Immortals gaining T5 would go a long way.
Well damn. Are they still playtesting? I hope not.
Yes, I agree Warriors should have their 3+ back and Immortals should be T5 again. Then they'd be worth their points.
What is it with frontline gaming and being biased? Ive read about them liking eldar and AM but it was mostly just Tau players that really disliked them.
It's just people being salty. There's no real correlation between what armies FLG plays and which ones are good; Reece plays Raptors Space Marines and Night Lords CSM and neither of those armies are amazing. For the other side of the coin he's said repeatedly that he doesn't enjoy bringing big titanic units but that definitely didn't stop the Imperial Knight codex from being good.
Arachnofiend wrote: It's just people being salty. There's no real correlation between what armies FLG plays and which ones are good; Reece plays Raptors Space Marines and Night Lords CSM and neither of those armies are amazing. For the other side of the coin he's said repeatedly that he doesn't enjoy bringing big titanic units but that definitely didn't stop the Imperial Knight codex from being good.
I remember them being really positive about Necrons index back then, even if it had obvious short-comings compared to other indeces.
Maybe they are just bad at playtesting stuff? Maybe they have too much respect for GW and are afraid of telling them „you did gak with unit/codex X“
Ive never been a playtester so i dont know how it works but i would say you have to spam and abuse EVERYTHING you can against EVERY faction to see IF there is something to abuse and how strong it is...(also looking at potential synergies)
Arachnofiend wrote: It's just people being salty. There's no real correlation between what armies FLG plays and which ones are good; Reece plays Raptors Space Marines and Night Lords CSM and neither of those armies are amazing. For the other side of the coin he's said repeatedly that he doesn't enjoy bringing big titanic units but that definitely didn't stop the Imperial Knight codex from being good.
Look at the Grey Knights codex and what Reece said about us complaining. If that doesn't tell you anything, what will?
Arachnofiend wrote: It's just people being salty. There's no real correlation between what armies FLG plays and which ones are good; Reece plays Raptors Space Marines and Night Lords CSM and neither of those armies are amazing. For the other side of the coin he's said repeatedly that he doesn't enjoy bringing big titanic units but that definitely didn't stop the Imperial Knight codex from being good.
I remember them being really positive about Necrons index back then, even if it had obvious short-comings compared to other indeces.
Reece is a pretty positive person in general, he seems to more readily assume things will be good than that they will be bad. He was pretty excited for the morale manipulation traits too, and we all know how that turned out.
You're talking about Front Line Gaming, right? Did they actually say that? That's pretty scummy.
Yes, and yes.
They also maliciously mislead people in their articles for GW claiming the worst things were actually the best things. Which is exactly the kind of feedback they are giving to GW.
It's possible they are just bad at playtesting, Occam's Razor and all, but how often and loudly shouting over actual logic can you be at something before you're willfully ignorant instead?
They passed that pretty long ago; eg Grey Knights.
You're talking about Front Line Gaming, right? Did they actually say that? That's pretty scummy.
Yes, and yes.
They also maliciously mislead people in their articles for GW claiming the worst things were actually the best things. Which is exactly the kind of feedback they are giving to GW.
It's possible they are just bad at playtesting, Occam's Razor and all, but how often and loudly shouting over actual logic can you be at something before you're willfully ignorant instead?
They passed that pretty long ago; eg Grey Knights.
Remember Gretchin being the best unit ever? If the codex doesn't change them by much you'll know for a fact they're shills pure and simple.
Ok so we are back to Index Crons with needing the FW Pylon to deal with Armor? I guess our only hope is the FW does its thing and makes the new Momma Spider tank Over Powered as hell!
Pyrothem wrote: Ok so we are back to Index Crons with needing the FW Pylon to deal with Armor? I guess our only hope is the FW does its thing and makes the new Momma Spider tank Over Powered as hell!
I don't actually expect that to happen though. Despite their reputation, FW usually errs on the side of underpowered.
So Necrons in kill team are preeeetty good. 10 for leadership is AMAZING. That basically means the opponent has to table you to break you.
Too bad I don't like the game xD
If you charged the previous turn and didn't kill a guy (which is likelly due to flesh wounds) then if you get first player - the opponent can run away and you can't do anything to stop him. Lovelly.
Also, whoever said to take Tesla Immortals lost every ounce of credibility in my eyes. Tesla immortals in Kill team are TERRIBLE. Not only do you very easily get in 12'' for rapid fire for gauss, if you play tesla you get SO many -1s to hit. Basically you will only get procs within 12''... which is when you should be using gauss anyway!
rvd1ofakind wrote: So Necrons in kill team are preeeetty good. 10 for leadership is AMAZING. That basically means the opponent has to table you to break you.
Too bad I don't like the game xD
If you charged the previous turn and didn't kill a guy (which is likelly due to flesh wounds) then if you get first player - the opponent can run away and you can't do anything to stop him. Lovelly.
Also, whoever said to take Tesla Immortals lost every ounce of credibility in my eyes. Tesla immortals in Kill team are TERRIBLE. Not only do you very easily get in 12'' for rapid fire for gauss, if you play tesla you get SO many -1s to hit. Basically you will only get procs within 12''... which is when you should be using gauss anyway!
Oh right, you get long range modifiers now. Wow, that makes tesla pretty lacklustre then. Gauss all the way I suppose, until they make it so that tesla doesn't suffer range modifiers.
So basically the ONLY choice we have (immortal weapons) is not a choice because Tesla is worse in every scenario except for when AP is completelly useless. xD
This is why I'd be happier if tesla weapons procced on a *natural* 6. Yeah, it'd be a nerf to MWBD, but it'd let you actually advance with your assault weapons, or make use of that 24" range versus Altaioc.
momerathe wrote: This is why I'd be happier if tesla weapons procced on a *natural* 6. Yeah, it'd be a nerf to MWBD, but it'd let you actually advance with your assault weapons, or make use of that 24" range versus Altaioc.
To me that's a better change overall. Makes tesla units more viable, as then you don't have to baby sit them all of the time with an overlord, and it opens up more list combinations.
MWBD would still be useful, as it is a pretty strong buff.
momerathe wrote: This is why I'd be happier if tesla weapons procced on a *natural* 6. Yeah, it'd be a nerf to MWBD, but it'd let you actually advance with your assault weapons, or make use of that 24" range versus Altaioc.
Since here's no MWBD in Kill Teams, and they already changed plasma to be only on a natural 1, there's no reason they shouldn't have changed Tesla to only proc on a natural 6...except for that "GW hates Necrons" idea that keeps coming back
Ill be playing 3 Doom Scythes in a friendly game soon. Are there techniques or strategies to keep them within range of the intended target and not crash them or fly off board with them?
Are you seriously considering a company, who's goal is to make money, hating a part of their customer base that does nothing but stupply them with said money?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Are you seriously considering a company, who's goal is to make money, hating a part of their customer base that does nothing but stupply them with said money?
Welcome to the Kirby era, where the attitude was "our customers are idiots who'll buy anything we make" The Kirby era was not consumer friendly and was less geared towards making a healthy game and community, and more towards lining their pockets. Its better now, but they've been making some really stupid decisions that don't help the game. Like pushing Super Heavy vehicles without properly giving armies the means to deal with them, or seemingly focusing on soup rather than allowing armies to work on their own merits.
I think people are short changing tesla. Yes at +12 inchs it will be hard to get tesla to go off but its still 2 shot to the gauss's 1 shot. Next if you really want your tesla to go off, the comms specialist can boost your BS and you can negate cover with a necron stratagem. Now I'm not saying tesla is better and you should never take gauss. Hell, gauss is arguably the better of two for more situation, at least in kill team. But if you have 3 immortal you can maybe make 1 of them tesla is all I'm saying.
Venerable Ironclad wrote: I think people are short changing tesla. Yes at +12 inchs it will be hard to get tesla to go off but its still 2 shot to the gauss's 1 shot. Next if you really want your tesla to go off, the comms specialist can boost your BS and you can negate cover with a necron stratagem. Now I'm not saying tesla is better and you should never take gauss. Hell, gauss is arguably the better of two for more situation, at least in kill team. But if you have 3 immortal you can maybe make 1 of them tesla is all I'm saying.
Does boosting BS help though? Doesn't change the fact that those 6s become 5s with -1 to hit
As i thought alot of the specialist bonuses dont work well with necrons.
I also like how they changed RP from a 5+ to a 6+...
Other than that morale is a HUGE thing in KT and Necrons are pretty strong having morale10
Flayed Ones are only good for counter charging
if your opponent doesnt have any melee stuff well bad for you you have probably wasted those 10-20points (I dont think you need more than 2FOs)
Played a Necron Kill team Match Last night
x4 Immortals all with Gauss
x2 Flayed Ones
x1 Deathmark
It worked pretty well. RP never came into play. I swear...of the flesh wound rolls in game, only 3 were flesh wounds, everything else was immediately "out of action" for both sides lol. Very bloody. Flayed Ones...honestly did ok. They moved up out of LOS, and then charged things, and took an inordinate amount of fire away from the Immortals.
Deathmark did well. Got 2 mortal wounds during the game.
RP on a 5+ would be pretty busted in Kill Team, it would reduce your chance of dying to the first injury roll to 1/6 where everyone else is looking at 1/2. It's possible the 6 is too infrequent but the fact that it takes up one of your "you are dead" rolls does really help.
Arachnofiend wrote: RP on a 5+ would be pretty busted in Kill Team, it would reduce your chance of dying to the first injury roll to 1/6 where everyone else is looking at 1/2. It's possible the 6 is too infrequent but the fact that it takes up one of your "you are dead" rolls does really help.
Yeah, RP seems to be pretty useful in KT. Don't forget that it also removes all flesh wounds as well, so not only does the model avoid death, it gets better.
Venerable Ironclad wrote: I think people are short changing tesla. Yes at +12 inchs it will be hard to get tesla to go off but its still 2 shot to the gauss's 1 shot. Next if you really want your tesla to go off, the comms specialist can boost your BS and you can negate cover with a necron stratagem. Now I'm not saying tesla is better and you should never take gauss. Hell, gauss is arguably the better of two for more situation, at least in kill team. But if you have 3 immortal you can maybe make 1 of them tesla is all I'm saying.
Does boosting BS help though? Doesn't change the fact that those 6s become 5s with -1 to hit
The Comms' scanner ability adds 1 to hit roles, it doesn't change your stat. So if the target is over half range an the roll has a -1 and the Comms gives you a +1 it is possible to get tesla to work on a 6. Likewise, if the target is in half range its possible to get tesla to pop on a 5+.
Arachnofiend wrote: RP on a 5+ would be pretty busted in Kill Team, it would reduce your chance of dying to the first injury roll to 1/6 where everyone else is looking at 1/2. It's possible the 6 is too infrequent but the fact that it takes up one of your "you are dead" rolls does really help.
Yeah, RP seems to be pretty useful in KT. Don't forget that it also removes all flesh wounds as well, so not only does the model avoid death, it gets better.
I can't say. It never came up thusfar in the games i've played.
I've been continuing along with the mathhammer and I really like how Lychguard with sycthes synergies with certain things.
Ignore the Orange Cells as they take into account the Knight invul vs shooting which is non relevant vs melee, although I've left them in for reference as it is possible for knights to have a 5++ or 4++ melee invul. For "normal" damage vs knight results use the Leman Russ T8/3+ column.
A full squad of 10 buffed with My Will Be Done, The Lords Will, and Nemesor Zahndrekh's Transient Madness: Avenge the Fallen and Disruption Fields.
All this stacked together gives you 30 attacks, hitting on 2s, S8, AP-4, D2 with reroll 1s to wound. Mathed out it does 29.17 expected average damage to T8/3+(a knight in melee). This is a higher expected outcome than a Gauss Pylon shooting a knight, due in part to d6 random shots, shooting vs invul/rotate (5++/4++). It is worth noting that Transient Madness is a random chance buff, you have a 1 in 3 chance of getting Avenge the Fallen for the +1 attack, with a CP reroll you have around a 55% chance of getting the buff you want. Excluding this as an uncontrollable factor leaves you with an expected 19.44 damage vs a knight, which is the same as a Gauss pylon Vs a knight with a 4++.
There are a few factors that I've brushed over with this quick break down, but over all though It looks like Scytheguard are a more versatile choice as they are able to deal handily with a wider variety of targets than the Gauss pylon's single role.
Now, onto the elephant in the room, horrendous mobility.
5" movement is god awful, but I've already eluded to the solution with the "optimal buffs". Nemesor Zahndrekh, Vargard Obyron and the good old Ghostwalk shuffle. I'm sure most are already fully aware, but with the inclusion of a character (Cryptek) with Veil this combo can potentially put the Scytheguard into unfailable charge range.
The breakdown for those who may be unaware.
Zahndrekh puts MWBD on the Lychguard.
The Cryptek Veil's Zahndrekh to 9.1" from the enemy.
Obyron then Ghostwalk's himself and the Lychguard to within 6" of Zahn. (3.1" from the enemy)
Because the wording is "within" and not "wholly within" we can include the 32mm base size and for argument's sake call it 1". (This put's you at 2.1 inch with a minimum charge range of 3" due to MWBD)
Something to keep in mind is that Zahn himself is sold on a 25mm base, so if you wanted to go all in without bringing your cryptek along you only need to find a 1 square inch gap between any screening units in order to get in.
The Shuffle can also be used to aid with the, post bomb mobility. Ghostwalk happens at the end of the movement phase. This means that we can move or even advance Zahn before using it. This gives us a 5+1d6" +6" +1" +12" maximum range threat bubble of 30" but a more realistic 22.5"/23.5" threat bubble based on average rolls. Bare in mind also that this threat range bubble is centered from Zahn and not the lychguard.
Now, the down side...
For this to work it's going to cost points. 715 in total for zah(180), Oby(140), Cryptek w/ chrono (95) and 10 Scytheguard(300). This Vs the previously compared Gauss Pylon (550). It doesn't seem like an awful lot more considering it gives you 3 HQs which can unlock 2 or possibly even 3 detachments, but they would all have to be Sautekh which isn't strictly speaking the best option out there.
--------
I've been thinking about how I'd implement this into a list and this is what I've come up with.
Spoiler:
1750Pts
2 Spearhead Detachments
+ HQ +
Cryptek: Chronometron, Staff of Light, Warlord: Hyperlogical strategist, veil of darkness
Nemesor Zahndrekh
Vargard Obyron
+ Elites +
Lychguard: 10x Lychguard, Warscythe
+ Fast Attack +
Canoptek Scarabs: 3x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Scarabs: 3x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Scarabs: 3x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Destroyers
6x Destroyer: 6x Gauss Cannon
Destroyers
6x Destroyer: 6x Gauss Cannon
Tomb Blades
9x Tomb Blade: 9x Two Tesla Carbines, 5x Shieldvanes 3x Shadowlooms
I've Opted for 2 Units of Destroyers because they have to be Sautekh and feel that this adds a much needed layer of redundancy hopefully giving me the opportunity to EP with as full a unit as possible. Also because they are Infantry they are a viable unit for Zahn's TM buff for +1BS if i either don't get the +1 attack buff for the Lychguard or do not want to drop the bomb yet.
I've also gone for a unit of tesla tomb blades and 3 units of scarabs to fill out the detachments and provide some objective grabbing/screening units. There is also the option with the tomb blades that they might just be able to flit across the table and hook up with Zahn/Oby/Cryptek and provide screening for them.
If this list gets EXTREMELY lucky with first turn and a suitable gap to veil into it can do an average expected wounds of 29.17 from the lychguard, call it 24 for 1 dead knight. Plus around 24.74 from tomb blades and destroyers for a second dead knight, but this relies on baiting out the rotate and spending 2 CP on MD. kind of unlikely to happen, so I'd say that we can call it 1 dead knight and 1 knight on the lowest degrading.
Drider wrote: I've been continuing along with the mathhammer and I really like how Lychguard with sycthes synergies with certain things.
Ignore the Orange Cells as they take into account the Knight invul vs shooting which is non relevant vs melee, although I've left them in for reference as it is possible for knights to have a 5++ or 4++ melee invul. For "normal" damage vs knight results use the Leman Russ T8/3+ column.
A full squad of 10 buffed with My Will Be Done, The Lords Will, and Nemesor Zahndrekh's Transient Madness: Avenge the Fallen and Disruption Fields.
All this stacked together gives you 30 attacks, hitting on 2s, S8, AP-4, D2 with reroll 1s to wound. Mathed out it does 29.17 expected average damage to T8/3+(a knight in melee). This is a higher expected outcome than a Gauss Pylon shooting a knight, due in part to d6 random shots, shooting vs invul/rotate (5++/4++). It is worth noting that Transient Madness is a random chance buff, you have a 1 in 3 chance of getting Avenge the Fallen for the +1 attack, with a CP reroll you have around a 55% chance of getting the buff you want. Excluding this as an uncontrollable factor leaves you with an expected 19.44 damage vs a knight, which is the same as a Gauss pylon Vs a knight with a 4++.
There are a few factors that I've brushed over with this quick break down, but over all though It looks like Scytheguard are a more versatile choice as they are able to deal handily with a wider variety of targets than the Gauss pylon's single role.
Now, onto the elephant in the room, horrendous mobility.
5" movement is god awful, but I've already eluded to the solution with the "optimal buffs". Nemesor Zahndrekh, Vargard Obyron and the good old Ghostwalk shuffle. I'm sure most are already fully aware, but with the inclusion of a character (Cryptek) with Veil this combo can potentially put the Scytheguard into unfailable charge range.
The breakdown for those who may be unaware.
Zahndrekh puts MWBD on the Lychguard.
The Cryptek Veil's Zahndrekh to 9.1" from the enemy.
Obyron then Ghostwalk's himself and the Lychguard to within 6" of Zahn. (3.1" from the enemy)
Because the wording is "within" and not "wholly within" we can include the 32mm base size and for argument's sake call it 1". (This put's you at 2.1 inch with a minimum charge range of 3" due to MWBD)
Something to keep in mind is that Zahn himself is sold on a 25mm base, so if you wanted to go all in without bringing your cryptek along you only need to find a 1 square inch gap between any screening units in order to get in.
The Shuffle can also be used to aid with the, post bomb mobility. Ghostwalk happens at the end of the movement phase. This means that we can move or even advance Zahn before using it. This gives us a 5+1d6" +6" +1" +12" maximum range threat bubble of 30" but a more realistic 22.5"/23.5" threat bubble based on average rolls. Bare in mind also that this threat range bubble is centered from Zahn and not the lychguard.
Now, the down side...
For this to work it's going to cost points. 715 in total for zah(180), Oby(140), Cryptek w/ chrono (95) and 10 Scytheguard(300). This Vs the previously compared Gauss Pylon (550). It doesn't seem like an awful lot more considering it gives you 3 HQs which can unlock 2 or possibly even 3 detachments, but they would all have to be Sautekh which isn't strictly speaking the best option out there.
--------
I've been thinking about how I'd implement this into a list and this is what I've come up with.
Spoiler:
1750Pts
2 Spearhead Detachments
+ HQ +
Cryptek: Chronometron, Staff of Light, Warlord: Hyperlogical strategist, veil of darkness
Nemesor Zahndrekh
Vargard Obyron
+ Elites +
Lychguard: 10x Lychguard, Warscythe
+ Fast Attack +
Canoptek Scarabs: 3x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Scarabs: 3x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Scarabs: 3x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Destroyers
6x Destroyer: 6x Gauss Cannon
Destroyers
6x Destroyer: 6x Gauss Cannon
Tomb Blades
9x Tomb Blade: 9x Two Tesla Carbines, 5x Shieldvanes 3x Shadowlooms
I've Opted for 2 Units of Destroyers because they have to be Sautekh and feel that this adds a much needed layer of redundancy hopefully giving me the opportunity to EP with as full a unit as possible. Also because they are Infantry they are a viable unit for Zahn's TM buff for +1BS if i either don't get the +1 attack buff for the Lychguard or do not want to drop the bomb yet.
I've also gone for a unit of tesla tomb blades and 3 units of scarabs to fill out the detachments and provide some objective grabbing/screening units. There is also the option with the tomb blades that they might just be able to flit across the table and hook up with Zahn/Oby/Cryptek and provide screening for them.
If this list gets EXTREMELY lucky with first turn and a suitable gap to veil into it can do an average expected wounds of 29.17 from the lychguard, call it 24 for 1 dead knight. Plus around 24.74 from tomb blades and destroyers for a second dead knight, but this relies on baiting out the rotate and spending 2 CP on MD. kind of unlikely to happen, so I'd say that we can call it 1 dead knight and 1 knight on the lowest degrading.
You're catapulting the court and the royal gonads straight into the middle of the lion's den, seems like quite the gamble. No CC invul for the lychguard for when the knights hit back
torblind wrote: You're catapulting the court and the royal gonads straight into the middle of the lion's den, seems like quite the gamble. No CC invul for the lychguard for when the knights hit back
This is all true but I think comes down to knowing when to commit and when not to. I think that not having a CC invul is something to be aware of but I don't think that is a huge issue if handled right, almost anything you go in on should die. I'd be more concerned about the knight exploding and killing characters. In order for the lychguard to charge and be in range of the cryptek they would have to string back and you'd actually lose the attacks from 1 model.
As mentioned on a previous page, you can only do the Ghostwalk Slingshot once against an opponent (because after that they'll be bubble wrapping their important stuff so nothing can charge it).
skoffs wrote: As mentioned on a previous page, you can only do the Ghostwalk Slingshot once against an opponent (because after that they'll be bubble wrapping their important stuff so nothing can charge it).
do knights lists have that much bubble wrap typically?
skoffs wrote: As mentioned on a previous page, you can only do the Ghostwalk Slingshot once against an opponent (because after that they'll be bubble wrapping their important stuff so nothing can charge it).
do knights lists have that much bubble wrap typically?
Every Imperial list has at least 30 guardsmen.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also RE: assaulting Knights.
If you're goal is to really kill knights in assault, you've picked the wrong unit. You want Wraiths.
They can pin Knights, be Novokh, get there on their own freeing up vastly more points to use elsewhere, are vastly harder to kill for the most common configuration of Knights, and can use that increased hardiness with Wraithflight to Fall Back and Charge tactically.
We all know Wraiths aren't held in much esteem, but for this job, they really are the unit of choice.
iGuy91 wrote: I uhhh...never leave home without at least 6 wraiths as an assault pressure, distraction carnifex, or counter-assault unit
3 or 4 will do the pressure/distraction/counter-ass job nicely enough.
Destroyers, on the other hand, are 6 minimum for me.
... though Tomb Blades are looking increasingly like must takes now, too.
iGuy91 wrote: I uhhh...never leave home without at least 6 wraiths as an assault pressure, distraction carnifex, or counter-assault unit
3 or 4 will do the pressure/distraction/counter-ass job nicely enough.
Destroyers, on the other hand, are 6 minimum for me.
... though Tomb Blades are looking increasingly like must takes now, too.
I'm actually running into the issue where I need to run an outrider in 99% of my lists to get enough Fast Attack Slots to let me run wraiths, destroyers, scarabs and Tomb Blades.
Drider wrote: And will just keel over to a big unit of double shooting cultists or guard.
Not really. They're only slightly less durable than regular Custodes to those weapons. Feel free to post the math on how "quick" those units will kill them though.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: See, GW hates necrons. This is just like 5th ed, where they completely neutered gauss prior to the 5th ed codex release (which took 3 years after 5th dropped. Because GW hates us), meaning all it took was one dreadnaught in melee to screw us over. Now the dreadnaughts are bigger and our weapons are still mostly crap.
Still mostly crap? You're leaving out the two editions were Necrons were in the top 5 the entire time and top 3 much of the time. Knights aren't very fun, but they're not 2++ re-rollable unfun, they're not infinite models coming out the warp unfun or half your army is dead turn 1 from my deep striking grav guns unfun.
Pyrothem wrote: GW will on see that the Triple T-Vault is a thing and neuter is hard in CA.
Good. Necrons' tournament results being propped up by gimmick lists just lessens the chance of buffs to our other units.
Pyrothem wrote: GW will on see that the Triple T-Vault is a thing and neuter is hard in CA.
They will also increase the points on everything. Because RP is super op you guys.
Yeah like they did in all the previous CAs. Wait, there was only one and it didn't buff Necrons because the codex hit within a couple of months. Yes, they should have buffed Acanthrites, but does anyone really care?
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Its better now, but they've been making some really stupid decisions that don't help the game. Like pushing Super Heavy vehicles without properly giving armies the means to deal with them, or seemingly focusing on soup rather than allowing armies to work on their own merits.
You mean Knights and Tesseract Vaults? They nerfed almost every single huge thing from FW including our very own Gauss Pylon. By focusing on soup you mean preventing soup detachments thereby limiting people to 3 factions?
Some thoughts on my last few games. Still playing my all infantry list with Szeras and Anrakyr.
Won a game against a the most aggressive Nid player in the world, he thought the game was over turn 1 because I killed 200 pts worth of models. His buddy was also really loud. I didn't know whether to laugh or get mad, I ended up trolling him midway through the game by complaining super hard whenever I made a bad roll. I guess I did end up winning so maybe the game really was over because of that devastating turn 1 alpha strike.
Won an ITC game against a CSM list with a big nurgle transport he made -1 to hit, it carried a lot of Berzerkers, he also had a big squad of Slaanesh Terminators. He offed my Praetorians with his Termiers, I counterstruck and killed them, I also surrounded his big transport, my opponent ragequit in the most polite way possible.
Lost an ITC game against a Necron list with a Sautekh Outrider with 2x6 Destroyers and a Mephrit Battalion which was pretty barebones. Forgot to keep my units within 3" of the objectives, at the end of the game my opponent gave me an opportunity to Veil and shoot at his Lord and Cryptek, I reduced the Lord to 1 wound and failed my charge with my Warriors and my Lord, should have been more frugal with my CP to make one of those charges. Destroyers are insane to play against, definitely need to watch out for them if I face them again.
Lost an ITC game against DE. I got first turn and popped a flyer, my opponent then destroyed 760 pts worth of units, I then destroyed another flyer and surrendered at the end of my turn. Need to be more careful, this definitely isn't the DE of 7th. I didn't Veil into my opponent turn 1 which was a huge mistake, can't really afford to see what happens when what's going to happen is you losing a third of your army.
Won a CA Maelstrom Sealed Orders game against a Nid list with a couple of Tyrannofexes and some GSC guys. I got first turn, popped a Tyrannofex, screened properly and remembered to use Szeras. Opponent made a half-hearted counterstrike, turn two I killed another Tyrannofex along with most of his infantry. My opponent was rolling really poorly, I asked him if he wanted to call it (0 units lost on my side) and he did.
Hey fellows, I've been looking at necrons for a long time, kinda always fancied that egyptian theme. How should I get started with them? I know, get the codex first, but what sort of tactics are most efficient? As a colour scheme, I prefer nihilakh, are they any good?
Spreelock wrote: Hey fellows, I've been looking at necrons for a long time, kinda always fancied that egyptian theme. How should I get started with them? I know, get the codex first, but what sort of tactics are most efficient? As a colour scheme, I prefer nihilakh, are they any good?
Did you check the first post in this thread for which units to prioritize?
Wow, thanks for the tip. I actually didnt check, because it's kinda rare that someone sees the effort to bring in some tactical insight. But this is cool.
Spreelock wrote: Wow, thanks for the tip. I actually didnt check, because it's kinda rare that someone sees the effort to bring in some tactical insight. But this is cool.
This is the best 40k Tactica thread on Dakka. No other thread has an OP like it. We did a lot of disscussing getting that worked out. Hope you enjoy your new army, fellow Overlord. Oh, and, Nihilakh is fun
Nihilakh's trait is kinda meh, and it doesn't benefit Destroyers at all. Warlord trait is garbage. Relic is actually pretty good. Trazyn is once again...Trazyn. He lost usefulness the moment they took away his ability to possess a Lychguard instead.
I swear by using Doomsday Arks as Nihilakh because Scarabs can provide enough bubblewrap to not care about potential deep strike, which means you're free to camp and shoot as you please.
Spreelock wrote: Wow, thanks for the tip. I actually didnt check, because it's kinda rare that someone sees the effort to bring in some tactical insight. But this is cool.
This is the best 40k Tactica thread on Dakka. No other thread has an OP like it. We did a lot of disscussing getting that worked out. Hope you enjoy your new army, fellow Overlord. Oh, and, Nihilakh is fun
This seems to be the most active one by far too. We were one of last guys to get a codex out, but we still seem to surpass the other older codexes in tactica-thread-activity by far.
It's mainly because Necrons are pretty low down in the competitive meta. People paying attention to this thread are people who actually care about Necrons rather than FotM.
Tactics are deploy heavy gunline, advancing, while night scythe circles and drops immortals. Doomsday Ark provides AT-fire, bubblewrapped with scarabs. Characters provide healing for Warriors. Could this kind of list work well? Are the Destroyers and Wraiths mandatory?
Tactics are deploy heavy gunline, advancing, while night scythe circles and drops immortals. Doomsday Ark provides AT-fire, bubblewrapped with scarabs. Characters provide healing for Warriors. Could this kind of list work well? Are the Destroyers and Wraiths mandatory?
- You do not need 3 normal Crypteks if you have Orikan. Crypteks cannot stack their RP if that is what your trying to do. RP can only go to a 4+ unless using Eternity Orb relic w/ Cryptek nearby.
- Min Size units of Immortals are easy targets to grand your opponent 1st blood and kill points if playing those types of games.
- 3 min size squad of Scarabs won't do much tbh. Use them as min bubble wrap and to prevent Turn 2+ Deep strikes near you.
- Nscythe won't help you. If it gets killed whatever units you have in Tomb World deployment are auto-dead.
- Overlord don't need The Orb. If going Warrior Heavy bring a Ghost Ark. helps out more in the long run.
How many points you playing and is this a list you made to see what you can make or do you have a game organised?
DarknessEternal wrote: It's mainly because Necrons are pretty low down in the competitive meta. People paying attention to this thread are people who actually care about Necrons rather than FotM.
Are they low down? There were 8(I think) Necrons in BAO. That's not too little. They all did poorly.
Tactics are deploy heavy gunline, advancing, while night scythe circles and drops immortals. Doomsday Ark provides AT-fire, bubblewrapped with scarabs. Characters provide healing for Warriors. Could this kind of list work well? Are the Destroyers and Wraiths mandatory?
Destroyers and wraiths are a must have in every necron army (they are the best units necrons have), warriors are weak (unless in huge numbers, buffed by cryptek and overlord), flyers are a nogo, DDAs are way to random to have only one. Always max units if possible.
Hi all. Longtime lurker here and decided to join in on the action.
I've got back into 40k at the start of 8th after about 15 years out of the hobby! Currently play semi-competitively with friends.
My own personal opinion is Necrons are a pretty low tier army after our Codex drop. Shame as i was so hype for it with all the hints the guys at FLG were dropping. Hoping we will get a good look at in the next FAQ/chapter approved but to be honest, we're not a very popular faction, dont have many nice new models they want to sell either so i wouldn't hold my breath. I can see the vault going up by 50p, destroyers up by 5 and warriors down by 1.
So all in all, we're just gonna have to live with what we've been given. When life gives you lemons yada yada yada.
A few points I've come to find for me:
1) Troop tax is real. My opponents have learnt to just flat out ignore my troops and go for the kill on more important units. Warriors/immortals are just too slow to pose any kind of threat, once my heavy hitters have been taken out they can just mop up the stranded infantry. This is particularly apparent to me as my opponents often bring high range weaponry forcing me to come to them while they just sit in a castle blowing me to shreds. At first I tried large warriors blobs buffed my an overlord and cryptek but the only success I've had so far with troops is using the veil to smack a 20 man warrior unit in rapid fire range turn one forcing my opponent to deal with them.
2) Destroyers really are that good. Mobile, heavy hitting and pretty survivable they are our best unit (don't really count the Vault as i don't want to run a super heavy). I started with 1 unit of 6 and now have 2 units of 6 for redundancy. I run both units with a dedicated cloaktek and find that if they are still alive at the start of turn 3 they are basically immortal.
3) Wraiths can be good. However, they are expensive and if you play against a lot of smite it's just not worth the points.
4) C'tan die easily but are very fun to play with and do good damage. Antimatter meteor and sky of falling stars are my go to powers. Normally play aggressively with the nightbringer so he often dies turn 2 but takes attention away from my more valuable units.
5) Doomsday arks have changed the way my army plays entirely. So, as previously mentioned, i often play against gunline armies and tend to get heavily damaged before getting into the Necron (TM) 24 inch threat zone. However, with 2 doomsday arks sitting at the back corner I force my opponent to come to me with some of his force as I more often than not out range him. This has the added benefit of pulling in his army to destroyer range. Doomsday arks at the back are incredibly hard to move as well with most high range weaponry being high damage. Sit them ontop of buildings to deny charges and use the Guass Flayer Arrays late game to help clean up.
6) Tomb blades. The way i now tend to run these is as cheaply as possible to be aggressive and act as a distraction. Particle casters are so much cheaper than the other weapons, especially when over a unit of 6 (the sweet spot). Through them upfield, if they die turn 1 or 2 - good. Theyve taken attention away from your destroyers. Remember, everytime your opponent looses a unit, this is less firepower they have to wipe a unit of 6 destroyers. I've had 1 destroyer left on 1 wound more times than I care to think about!
7) Dynasty. I started with Mephrit as this dynasty has the most obvious benefit at first glance. However, in actual fact this dynastic code just exacerbates the range issues with Necrons. Now instead of needing to get within 24 inches, you need to get within 12! For my lists, I've settled on Sautek. My doomsday arks get to move around late game without any penalty, i get refunded command points (often play without a battalion) and access to the Abyssal staff which is a fantastic relic.
I've been playing mostly 'No Mercy' at around 1500 - 1750 point level so my findings are taken with that into consideration.At 1500 points I've been running one large outrider in order to minimise the HQ and troop tax. At 1750 points i take minimum immortal units (and one warrior squad as i only have 10 immortals) in order to get the comman points and camp on objectives.
My lists look something like this:
Mandatory 2 units of 6 destroyers - 300p
2 doomsday arks - 400p
2 cloakteks (veil of darkness and abyssal staff) - 170p
Very helpful Either C'tan - 220p
Scarabs - As many as you like, 6 bases to screen the Nightbringer
Tomb Blades - Try to get 6 particle casters in, if you need to cut points i run 3
Kind of useful Warriors, immortals - Enough to get a Battalion. That's all they're going to do all game. Sit them on an objective and take pot shots.
Hopefully thats of some use to you guys. Be interesting to hear what you think and if my results are being skewed somewhat by not playing ITC ETC etc.
1) Troop tax is real. My opponents have learnt to just flat out ignore my troops and go for the kill on more important units. Warriors/immortals are just too slow to pose any kind of threat, once my heavy hitters have been taken out they can just mop up the stranded infantry. This is particularly apparent to me as my opponents often bring high range weaponry forcing me to come to them while they just sit in a castle blowing me to shreds. At first I tried large warriors blobs buffed my an overlord and cryptek but the only success I've had so far with troops is using the veil to smack a 20 man warrior unit in rapid fire range turn one forcing my opponent to deal with them.
Ignoring 2*10 immortals with MWBD is a mistake. I destroyed a T7 W10 vehicle with them. Yes, my dice were hot. Does not happen every time.
4) C'tan die easily but are very fun to play with and do good damage. Antimatter meteor and sky of falling stars are my go to powers. Normally play aggressively with the nightbringer so he often dies turn 2 but takes attention away from my more valuable units.
Ctans are not worth the points, use the tvault. Almost four times the wounds for double points, +1 to some of their powers, can use 3 powers instead of 1, and it gets dynasty codes/stratagems. Can move 14" across the battlefield as nephrekh. Can be repaired by a cloaktek and/or spyder.
5) Doomsday arks have changed the way my army plays entirely. So, as previously mentioned, i often play against gunline armies and tend to get heavily damaged before getting into the Necron (TM) 24 inch threat zone. However, with 2 doomsday arks sitting at the back corner I force my opponent to come to me with some of his force as I more often than not out range him. This has the added benefit of pulling in his army to destroyer range. Doomsday arks at the back are incredibly hard to move as well with most high range weaponry being high damage. Sit them ontop of buildings to deny charges and use the Guass Flayer Arrays late game to help clean up.
AM has at least 48" range. How do you get them within 24" for your destroyers ?
Ignoring 2*10 immortals with MWBD is a mistake. I destroyed a T7 W10 vehicle with them. Yes, my dice were hot. Does not happen every time.
While I don't doubt the math for Tesla immortals, I'm often playing Alaitoc and Stygies so the minus to hit really effects their output. Against Nids or Orks I'm sure they work great.
Wraiths are good. Use scarabs in front of them to soak up the smites.
Wraiths definitely are good, I've just found them a tad expensive, especially as I play against a lot of smiting lists. Scarab screen is definitely a good strategy that i use for my C'tan. The only issue with Wraiths is they can move faster so could be held back a little bit by a scarab screen. Still a viable tactic for sure.
Ctans are not worth the points, use the tvault. Almost four times the wounds for double points, +1 to some of their powers, can use 3 powers instead of 1, and it gets dynasty codes/stratagems. Can move 14" across the battlefield as nephrekh. Can be repaired by a cloaktek and/or spyder.
C'tans aren't hugely competitive no, but they are fun. If i was min/maxing for a tourney then yeah I wouldn't take them but they're more than viable for my FLGS and pick up games. The Vault is way more impressive as you've said. I just personally don't really enjoy playing with Lords of War (a bit oldschool from when i played originally in 3rd). The knight meta at the moment is super boring for me. But, if you want the best units in our Codex the vault is right up there. I fully expect a points increase come December though giving that 90% of the tournament lists for Necrons is the exact same Vault/Deceiver list.
AM has at least 48" range. How do you get them within 24" for your destroyers ?
So I combine the Deceiver with the veil of Darkness. This reliably gets both Crypteks, both units of Destroyers and the C'tan himself across the board turn 1. Otherwise I use the mobility that fly gives us to get into good cover as I advance. The 72 inch Doomsday Cannon is gonna outrange them still, they'll need to come to us at some point.
Wraiths definitely are good, I've just found them a tad expensive, especially as I play against a lot of smiting lists. Scarab screen is definitely a good strategy that i use for my C'tan. The only issue with Wraiths is they can move faster so could be held back a little bit by a scarab screen. Still a viable tactic for sure.
Scarabs can advance. As nephrekh they auto advance 16". They can even charge after advancing with a stratagem.
Scarabs can advance. As nephrekh they auto advance 16". They can even charge after advancing with a stratagem.
Yeah but then your wraiths will also be advancing at the same rate, always gonna be slightly faster than the scarabs. Not that it matters a great deal, its just not 100% perfect.
Scarabs can advance. As nephrekh they auto advance 16". They can even charge after advancing with a stratagem.
Yeah but then your wraiths will also be advancing at the same rate, always gonna be slightly faster than the scarabs. Not that it matters a great deal, its just not 100% perfect.
What ? You dont have to advance your full movement. If you roll a 3 for your scarabs when they advance you can move them 12", just like your wraith. You can even decide not to move at all when advancing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Odrankt wrote: I run my Wraiths as Nihilakh so I can give them 2+ invul using the Nihi gem when 3" of an objective.
Wraiths arent the best choice of units when it comes to objective grabbing/holding.
Scarabs can advance. As nephrekh they auto advance 16". They can even charge after advancing with a stratagem.
Yeah but then your wraiths will also be advancing at the same rate, always gonna be slightly faster than the scarabs. Not that it matters a great deal, its just not 100% perfect.
What ? You dont have to advance your full movement. If you roll a 3 for your scarabs when they advance you can move them 12", just like your wraith. You can even decide not to move at all when advancing.
Yes I know you don't have to move the full movement. What I'm saying is the scarab screen will be slightly holding back your wraiths. You will mostly likely want to be advancing your wraiths 1 or 2 turns fully as fast as they can go in order to get into combat. If your scarab screen is 2 inches a turn slower then that's 4 extra inches your gonna need to make on your charge. Not exactly game breaking but its not 100% ideal.
Scarabs can advance. As nephrekh they auto advance 16". They can even charge after advancing with a stratagem.
Yeah but then your wraiths will also be advancing at the same rate, always gonna be slightly faster than the scarabs. Not that it matters a great deal, its just not 100% perfect.
What ? You dont have to advance your full movement. If you roll a 3 for your scarabs when they advance you can move them 12", just like your wraith. You can even decide not to move at all when advancing.
Yes I know you don't have to move the full movement. What I'm saying is the scarab screen will be slightly holding back your wraiths. You will mostly likely want to be advancing your wraiths 1 or 2 turns fully as fast as they can go in order to get into combat. If your scarab screen is 2 inches a turn slower then that's 4 extra inches your gonna need to make on your charge. Not exactly game breaking but its not 100% ideal.
Ok, got it now. There are two dynasties for wraith that make sense, nephrekh and novokh. If you play wraith as novokh you can play scarabs as nephrekh. That way your scarabs will be as fast as your wraith with a roll up to 4. If your wraith are nephrekh as well, then yes, they will get slowed down a bit.
AM has at least 48" range. How do you get them within 24" for your destroyers ?
So I combine the Deceiver with the veil of Darkness. This reliably gets both Crypteks, both units of Destroyers and the C'tan himself across the board turn 1. Otherwise I use the mobility that fly gives us to get into good cover as I advance. The 72 inch Doomsday Cannon is gonna outrange them still, they'll need to come to us at some point.
AM has at least 48" range. How do you get them within 24" for your destroyers ?
So I combine the Deceiver with the veil of Darkness. This reliably gets both Crypteks, both units of Destroyers and the C'tan himself across the board turn 1. Otherwise I use the mobility that fly gives us to get into good cover as I advance. The 72 inch Doomsday Cannon is gonna outrange them still, they'll need to come to us at some point.
So what happens when you don't go first?
Then you are doomed anyway.
Lucky thing is, the redeployment via Deceiver happens at the start of Battle Round 1, which means you already knows weather you will go furst or no.
So, if you really not getting the 1st turn, you can choose to put those Destroyers and support characters in cover AND behind large LoS blocking terrains, by LoS blocking I don't mean totally unseen by enemy, but at least the most enemy heavy hitting units threatening those Destroyers cannot shoot at you T1.
Scarabs can advance. As nephrekh they auto advance 16". They can even charge after advancing with a stratagem.
Yeah but then your wraiths will also be advancing at the same rate, always gonna be slightly faster than the scarabs. Not that it matters a great deal, its just not 100% perfect.
What ? You dont have to advance your full movement. If you roll a 3 for your scarabs when they advance you can move them 12", just like your wraith. You can even decide not to move at all when advancing.
Yes I know you don't have to move the full movement. What I'm saying is the scarab screen will be slightly holding back your wraiths. You will mostly likely want to be advancing your wraiths 1 or 2 turns fully as fast as they can go in order to get into combat. If your scarab screen is 2 inches a turn slower then that's 4 extra inches your gonna need to make on your charge. Not exactly game breaking but its not 100% ideal.
Ok, got it now. There are two dynasties for wraith that make sense, nephrekh and novokh. If you play wraith as novokh you can play scarabs as nephrekh. That way your scarabs will be as fast as your wraith with a roll up to 4. If your wraith are nephrekh as well, then yes, they will get slowed down a bit.
Yeah I think you could potentially build a really powerful Novokh detachment with lots of wraiths/destroyer lord. Hopefully our transports get a cost reduction come the winter and we can start to use lychguard more effectively too.
Then you are doomed anyway.
Lucky thing is, the redeployment via Deceiver happens at the start of Battle Round 1, which means you already knows weather you will go furst or no.
So, if you really not getting the 1st turn, you can choose to put those Destroyers and support characters in cover AND behind large LoS blocking terrains, by LoS blocking I don't mean totally unseen by enemy, but at least the most enemy heavy hitting units threatening those Destroyers cannot shoot at you T1.
Yeah pretty much this. If i get second turn i use the redeployment defensively. Hide as much as I can that isn't already hidden. I can still veil on my turn 1 to get some movement. Then the second destroyer squad can move up the board a bit more cautiously with the second cloaktek/C'tan in support.
Yeah I think you could potentially build a really powerful Novokh detachment with lots of wraiths/destroyer lord. Hopefully our transports get a cost reduction come the winter and we can start to use lychguard more effectively too.
Yes, you can. Dlord with phylactery and voidreaper, 9 scarabs as shield in front to intercept smites, countercharges, etc., and 6 wraiths, all novokh.
Odrankt wrote: I run my Wraiths as Nihilakh so I can give them 2+ invul using the Nihi gem when 3" of an objective.
Wraiths arent the best choice of units when it comes to objective grabbing/holding.
It's not about holding objectives, just need to stay within 3" of them
Wraiths Backed up by 9 Scarabs is what I use to hold an Objective. However I am saying I use the Nihilakh gem to grant them 2++ because. All they need to be is within 3" of an objective. even if your opponent is obj-secured you can still use the gem meaning you give them a hard time in their CC phase.
Wraiths Backed up by 9 Scarabs is what I use to hold an Objective. However I am saying I use the Nihilakh gem to grant them 2++ because. All they need to be is within 3" of an objective. even if your opponent is obj-secured you can still use the gem meaning you give them a hard time in their CC phase.
Do you know that your opponent doesnt need to attack you if you are 3" away from the objective ? He can also stay 3" away with his obsec (single model) unit on the other side of the objective, holding it. You wasted 2 CP. 9 scarabs and wraiths plus 2 CP sound excessive to hold an objective.
Wraiths Backed up by 9 Scarabs is what I use to hold an Objective. However I am saying I use the Nihilakh gem to grant them 2++ because. All they need to be is within 3" of an objective. even if your opponent is obj-secured you can still use the gem meaning you give them a hard time in their CC phase.
Do you know that your opponent doesnt need to attack you if you are 3" away from the objective ? He can also stay 3" away with his obsec (single model) unit on the other side of the objective, holding it. You wasted 2 CP. 9 scarabs and wraiths plus 2 CP sound excessive to hold an objective.
Yes I do know and I only pop the gem if im in CC. You charge the unit thats holding the object, end Of Turn you pop gem, you use Scarabs to make sure they can't fall back as well as back hp unit if not enough models died and than on their turn they have to fight you unless unit has fly but because of Scarabs they won't be allowed anywhere near the objective because of bodies and the unit as to be an inch away from any enemy model when called back
I have never wasted my CPs when doing that. I wouldnt suggest it if it didnt work for me.
Blndmage wrote: How worthwhile is the Sef Destruction Stratagem? I tend to run tons of Scarabs, but I'm usually really low on CP, so I never use it.
It's a pretty fun surprise for your opponent if he fields single wound heavily armored infantry. A good roll can immediately remove 3 marines. Not that useful against cheap infantry or anything more than 1 wound though.
Wraiths Backed up by 9 Scarabs is what I use to hold an Objective. However I am saying I use the Nihilakh gem to grant them 2++ because. All they need to be is within 3" of an objective. even if your opponent is obj-secured you can still use the gem meaning you give them a hard time in their CC phase.
Do you know that your opponent doesnt need to attack you if you are 3" away from the objective ? He can also stay 3" away with his obsec (single model) unit on the other side of the objective, holding it. You wasted 2 CP. 9 scarabs and wraiths plus 2 CP sound excessive to hold an objective.
I'd happily take 2++ on my wraiths after I run them in my opponents face turn 1. If he also charges them then great, I get value from the +1A also.
Yes I do know and I only pop the gem if im in CC. You charge the unit thats holding the object, end Of Turn you pop gem, you use Scarabs to make sure they can't fall back as well as back hp unit if not enough models died and than on their turn they have to fight you unless unit has fly but because of Scarabs they won't be allowed anywhere near the objective because of bodies and the unit as to be an inch away from any enemy model when called back
A model can move in base contact with enemy models when falling back, but has to end their movement more than 1" away.
I feel like the benefit of the Nihilakh Strat on the Wraiths is really about not having to hide them or limit their movement to prevent a great weight of fire falling on them before they can really get into combat with a valuable target.
I've been playing my last few games with a mixed Outrider Detachment of Novokh D Lord, Nihilakh Wraiths, and 2 squads of Nephrekh Destroyers. I reserve the Destroyers for DS, and hide most of the other stuff in the army turn one, so my opponent has almost nothing to target besides the 2++ Wraiths that have just flown across the board.
I'm currently taking a Battalion and 2 Outriders, including 2 D Lords, 2x5 Wraiths, 2x6 Destroyers, and 2x3 Tomb Blades. One Outrider is all Nephrekh and the other is the mixed one, and the battalion is Nephrekh as well, and pretty bare-bones (overlord, chrono cryptek, and tesla immortals).
Immortals and Blades just grab objectives and hide in cover, the characters and Nephrekh Wraiths shoot up the board behind LoS-blocking terrain (Nova L's for me right now), the Destroyers are in reserves and the Nihilakh Wraiths just present themselves as targets on an objective. The army can absorb enemy shooting turn one without taking serious damage, and then turn two everything drops into position and locks up high value targets.
Per the Big FAQ, units in a Detachment must share at least one Faction Keyword other than thise Factions capable of "souping." So Necrons require only one, i.e. "Necrons."
Blndmage wrote: I didn't think you could mix sub factions in one detachment. How are you doing that?
Per the Big FAQ, units in a Detachment must share at least one Faction Keyword other than thise Factions capable of "souping." So Necrons require only one, i.e. "Necrons."
Something tells me you're not going to be able to do that at a tournament. (I think you're going to need permission from a TO before you try running that.)
orkdom wrote: I feel like the benefit of the Nihilakh Strat on the Wraiths is really about not having to hide them or limit their movement to prevent a great weight of fire falling on them before they can really get into combat with a valuable target.
I've been playing my last few games with a mixed Outrider Detachment of Novokh D Lord, Nihilakh Wraiths, and 2 squads of Nephrekh Destroyers. I reserve the Destroyers for DS, and hide most of the other stuff in the army turn one, so my opponent has almost nothing to target besides the 2++ Wraiths that have just flown across the board.
I'm currently taking a Battalion and 2 Outriders, including 2 D Lords, 2x5 Wraiths, 2x6 Destroyers, and 2x3 Tomb Blades. One Outrider is all Nephrekh and the other is the mixed one, and the battalion is Nephrekh as well, and pretty bare-bones (overlord, chrono cryptek, and tesla immortals).
Immortals and Blades just grab objectives and hide in cover, the characters and Nephrekh Wraiths shoot up the board behind LoS-blocking terrain (Nova L's for me right now), the Destroyers are in reserves and the Nihilakh Wraiths just present themselves as targets on an objective. The army can absorb enemy shooting turn one without taking serious damage, and then turn two everything drops into position and locks up high value targets.
Read dynastic codes in the codex that is illegal. Every model must have the same dynasty for the detachment. - this is incorrect hes quite right its legal.
Read dynastic codes in the codex that is illegal. Every model must have the same dynasty for the detachment.
Here it is for reference:
"If your army is Battle-forged, units with the appropriate keyword will receive the corresponding Dynastic Code, detailed opposite, so long as every other unit in their Detachment is from the same dynasty."
It is perfectly acceptable to mix dynasty keywords within a single detachment; however, if you choose to mix dynasty keywords, the units therein will not gain the benefits of the Dynastic Codes corresponding to their dynasty. I'm doing absolutely nothing illegal here, and have no need to ask permission of any TO before playing a list in this way.
It isn't even really power-gamey (not that one should necessarily consider such things when trying to play 'competitively', that's up to the individual); it's a small version of soup allowed such Factions as are not part of the larger Imperium/Aeldari/Chaos/Tyranids (with GSC) collections. If Necrons want to find ways to compete with the bigger Soups, it's something they need to at least consider.
Read dynastic codes in the codex that is illegal. Every model must have the same dynasty for the detachment.
Here it is for reference:
"If your army is Battle-forged, units with the appropriate keyword will receive the corresponding Dynastic Code, detailed opposite, so long as every other unit in their Detachment is from the same dynasty."
It is perfectly acceptable to mix dynasty keywords within a single detachment; however, if you choose to mix dynasty keywords, the units therein will not gain the benefits of the Dynastic Codes corresponding to their dynasty. I'm doing absolutely nothing illegal here, and have no need to ask permission of any TO before playing a list in this way.
It isn't even really power-gamey (not that one should necessarily consider such things when trying to play 'competitively', that's up to the individual); it's a small version of soup allowed such Factions as are not part of the larger Imperium/Aeldari/Chaos/Tyranids (with GSC) collections. If Necrons want to find ways to compete with the bigger Soups, it's something they need to at least consider.
I stand corrected, it is as you say quite legal. I was mistaking the wording for a different meaning. No codes but strats as you say are fine hmmm. Good fine print reading lol.
You just want to be careful to pick units that don't lose much/anything by not gaining the Dynastic Code attached to their keyword. So, Destroyer Lords from Novokh already hit on 2+ and re-roll 1's, which means the Novokh Codes don't help them any, but making them Novokh still means you can attack twice, and/or give them the Blood Scythe for it's bonus attacks!
orkdom wrote: So, Destroyer Lords from Novokh already hit on 2+ and re-roll 1's, which means the Novokh Codes don't help them any, but making them Novokh still means you can attack twice, and/or give them the Blood Scythe for it's bonus attacks!
Dlords hit on 3+. Even novokh ones.
I dont see any advantage in mixing different dynasties in one detachment.
You just want to be careful to pick units that don't lose much/anything by not gaining the Dynastic Code attached to their keyword. So, Destroyer Lords from Novokh already hit on 2+ and re-roll 1's, which means the Novokh Codes don't help them any, but making them Novokh still means you can attack twice, and/or give them the Blood Scythe for it's bonus attacks!
Hit on 3+.
What other units would you mix in with the DLord n a detachment that also don't mind losing the dynastic bonus?
Well the other apparent choice is the Wraiths, who probably won't be carting around any guns to shoot with, and so don't care about Nihilakh Codes, but can benefit hugely from a 2++ save.
For my Outrider detachment, I have two units of Nephrekh Destroyers as the other FA choices. They aren't really going to want to Advance much, but being able to leave them in Deep Strike with the Nephrekh strat is very useful since they're a high priority target for my opponents and they're not nearly as durable as the Wraiths.
I've not really thoroughly explored it. Anything that has Tesla is a decent shout for Sautekh, with access to the extra Hit bonus from the strat, but I don't know if any such units definitely would not also benefit from the Sautekh Codes?
The utility of the Sautekh Warlord Trait almost makes me want to just throw a Sautekh character in a list, but again, maybe you just take a Sautekh detachment with Tesla Immortals. Thinking of it, I'll probably try replacing the Novokh D Lord with Orikan; cheaper, becomes a similar combat character, and I can make him the Warlord for Hyperlogical Strategist.
The following, then, would be my current list (for Nova format):
If this is truly the case (being able to mix units from different dynasties in a single detachment) then it could mean big things for competitive Necron list building (eg. no more having to add Nephrek Destroyers via Outrider or Aux, can just throw them into any list and use the Nephrek strat to deepstrike them in).
What else would be a unit that doesn't really care about its Dynasty's code but really benefits from its strats?
skoffs wrote: If this is truly the case (being able to mix units from different dynasties in a single detachment) then it could mean big things for competitive Necron list building (eg. no more having to add Nephrek Destroyers via Outrider or Aux, can just throw them into any list and use the Nephrek strat to deepstrike them in).
What else would be a unit that doesn't really care about its Dynasty's code but really benefits from its strats?
Well he already mentioned some, Nihilakh wraiths getting 2++, Tesla (or assault weapons really) units in Sautekh.
skoffs wrote: If this is truly the case (being able to mix units from different dynasties in a single detachment) then it could mean big things for competitive Necron list building (eg. no more having to add Nephrek Destroyers via Outrider or Aux, can just throw them into any list and use the Nephrek strat to deepstrike them in).
What else would be a unit that doesn't really care about its Dynasty's code but really benefits from its strats?
You must have missed this the last couple of times it came up in this thread.
It's good for units that want access to a Dynasties stratagems, but aren't bothered about codes. Destroyers are the main one as they want Nephrek for the deep strike strat but don't care about advancing 6". Nihilak Wraith are another one, the code is useless but the strat is situational but powerful (especially when fighting Knights). I've also given Tesla Tomb blades Sautekh in a mixed outrider to go with a Suatekh battalion- they can benefit from Methodical Destruction but don't need the code.
The other big benefit of a mixed detachment is being able to make the HQ match your other detachment(s) to prevent waste.
Example mixed detachment:
Spoiler:
Sautekh Battalion:
HQ HQ
Troop
Troop
Troop
Mixed Outrider:
Overlord (Sautekh- can buff the battalions troops and have the Warlord Trait)
6x Wraith (Nihilak- 2++ Strat)
6x Destroyers (Nephrek- Deep Strike Strat)
6x Tesla Blades (Sautekh- can join the battalion in using Methodical Destruction)
p5freak wrote: I dont think its worth giving up 6" auto advance or re-roll all failed hit rolls in melee for a 16,7% better invsv and +1A for wraith.
oh its much better than that.
2/6 unsaved becomes 1/6 unsaved. 50% improvement wrt damage taken, and a 100% increase in durability (twice the amount of shooting needed to take them down.
p5freak wrote: I dont think its worth giving up 6" auto advance or re-roll all failed hit rolls in melee for a 16,7% better invsv and +1A for wraith.
As mentioned above, the durability increase is massive. With a 2++ Wraith become effectively immune to any attacks that don't ignore invuls- only a fool would waste their time attacking them.
It is still quite situational though, and the Nephrek 6" advance will be more useful in a lot of games. I don't rate Novokh though, Wraith's strengths are their speed and resilience, not their damage output. I'd rather play to their strengths.
Honestly after Nihilakh I would say Novokh is the best Code for Wraiths for exactly the reason you don't rate it: without it, they can really be a wet blanket for damage output, but with it, they become very reliable offensively, whilst still maintaining excellent durability and mobility. Nihilakh is just wild when you get to use the Strat, and Nephrekh is nice because it synergizes with the Adaptive Subroutines strat well.
I started out playing them as Novokh and they did great damage, but then I switched to Nephrekh because I thought it better overall for the army. With a mixed detachment Nihilakh can be used, but unfortunately the best thing about Novokh is the Code, which is lost unless the entire detachment uses it, and nothing else I take really cares for it.
Novokh Scarabs have been awesome for me, full units backed by a Novokh D Lord, re rolling all failed hits, and generating extras on 6's? Awesome!
Granted, Wraiths work far better as they can fall back and re charge to gain the bonuses every turn, but a ball made of Scarabs, surrounding Wraiths, surrounding a D Lord is a tough nut to crack, and isn't something to be ignored.
Blndmage wrote: Novokh Scarabs have been awesome for me, full units backed by a Novokh D Lord, re rolling all failed hits, and generating extras on 6's?
Blndmage wrote: Novokh Scarabs have been awesome for me, full units backed by a Novokh D Lord, re rolling all failed hits, and generating extras on 6's?
Where's extra hits coming from?
Novokh Warlord, nat 6's on the hit in the fight phase generate extra attacks, the extras can't generate more. With reroling all failed, then rerolling the failed on the additional hits, I've had some really impressing charges with Scarabs. The sheer number of hits can be amazing, kinda makes up for the drop from WS 3 to 4 with the codex, especially with Fly added. It really makes their whole "wounds everything but T3 or worse on a 5+" thing fun!
I need someone to look at the Sautekh Dynasty Strat, Methodical Destruction, and tell me whether the following works:
Sautekh Unit A fires at Enemy Unit M and causes an unsaved wound; now the Necron Player activates the strat. Then, Sautekh Unit B declares targets for it's shooting attacks: one model will fire at Enemy Unit M, granting the +1 bonus from the strat, and the rest of the unit will fire at a completely different Enemy Unit N, but... Still gaining +1 to Hit for all it's shots?
The bonus seems to be applied at the unit level, but all models in a unit are not required to shoot the same target, so can you split-fire and get the +1 on shots which do not actually target the enemy unit which activates the strat?
Blndmage wrote: How worthwhile is the Sef Destruction Stratagem? I tend to run tons of Scarabs, but I'm usually really low on CP, so I never use it.
It's okay, it's not worth it to just deal damage to something, but if it makes the difference between killing things it's good. It's rarely as good as re-rolling a 1 on a D6 damage weapon, but given how many people re-roll failed hit rolls with CP it's not terrible.
I've used it to make room for my Praetorians once, opponent charged Praetorians and Scarabs, only one Praetorian had room to fight so I sacrificed a Scarab and got to attack with 7 instead.
Spreelock wrote: I actually got excited about Sautekh dynasty, and made my first list. Any advise are appreciated;
Too little AT. Nothing is mandatory, we've seen competetive lists do well without Destroyers, without DDAs, without Tesseract Vaults, without Wraiths, but if you don't have any of the above you're probably doing something wrong. I don't think we've seen Wraiths do well since the codex dropped, but they still bring a lot to the table, I'm of the opinion that their price hike was a little too steep when compared to the buffs the other units I listed got.
Won in an ITC match with a no Troops list with a mix of fast ranged units and a couple of DDAs against a Raptors player, he was experimenting with his list and usually plays DA. I went first and only lost a single unit the entire game, part of that was rolling hot but that's just what I do.
orkdom wrote: I need someone to look at the Sautekh Dynasty Strat, Methodical Destruction, and tell me whether the following works:
Sautekh Unit A fires at Enemy Unit M and causes an unsaved wound; now the Necron Player activates the strat. Then, Sautekh Unit B declares targets for it's shooting attacks: one model will fire at Enemy Unit M, granting the +1 bonus from the strat, and the rest of the unit will fire at a completely different Enemy Unit N, but... Still gaining +1 to Hit for all it's shots?
The bonus seems to be applied at the unit level, but all models in a unit are not required to shoot the same target, so can you split-fire and get the +1 on shots which do not actually target the enemy unit which activates the strat?
Unit B does get the +1 to hit, but only for models who attack unit M. Models targeting unit N dont get +1 to hit.
Did anyone notice that three tvaults or three pylons get dynasty codes ? Page 108 excludes a super-heavy auxiliary detachment from getting codes. But a super-heavy detachment is not a super-heavy auxiliary detachment.
p5freak wrote: Did anyone notice that three tvaults or three pylons get dynasty codes ? Page 108 excludes a super-heavy auxiliary detachment from getting codes. But a super-heavy detachment is not a super-heavy auxiliary detachment.
Well, the situation, as always, is that the T-Vaults still are CTan shards and thus are excluded from dynasty codes. Pylons are fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well.. "fine", now you're looking at 1650 points worth of pylons, and what.. a patrol detachment with an OL and 10 immortals?
p5freak wrote: Did anyone notice that three tvaults or three pylons get dynasty codes ? Page 108 excludes a super-heavy auxiliary detachment from getting codes. But a super-heavy detachment is not a super-heavy auxiliary detachment.
Well, the situation, as always, is that the T-Vaults still are CTan shards and thus are excluded from dynasty codes. Pylons are fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well.. "fine", now you're looking at 1650 points worth of pylons, and what.. a patrol detachment with an OL and 10 immortals?
If you look closely you will notice that there are no C'TAN SHARD in the codex. Only C'TAN SHARDS. Page 108 excludes C'TAN SHARD from dynasty codes, not C'TAN SHARDS.
p5freak wrote: Did anyone notice that three tvaults or three pylons get dynasty codes ? Page 108 excludes a super-heavy auxiliary detachment from getting codes. But a super-heavy detachment is not a super-heavy auxiliary detachment.
Well, the situation, as always, is that the T-Vaults still are CTan shards and thus are excluded from dynasty codes. Pylons are fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Well.. "fine", now you're looking at 1650 points worth of pylons, and what.. a patrol detachment with an OL and 10 immortals?
If you look closely you will notice that there are no C'TAN SHARD in the codex. Only C'TAN SHARDS. Page 108 excludes C'TAN SHARD from dynasty codes, not C'TAN SHARDS.
There is no C'TAN SHARD keyword, it's a misprint and was meant to say C'TAN SHARDS. There is being a rules lawyer and then there is using jetbikes for your Rangers because it's listed in their wargear in the digital edition. I sent a mail to GW customer service, it'd be nice if one of you contacted their FB pages so nobody sullies the name of Necron generals by being a massive grot.
vict0988 wrote: There is no C'TAN SHARD keyword, it's a misprint and was meant to say C'TAN SHARDS.
True, there is no CTAN SHARD keyword, not even CTAN SHARDS. CTAN SHARDS is a faction, check the codex.
I dont know what to even make of that. Are you playing with all dynasty bonuses for all C'Tans and the T Vault because none of them have the CTAN SHARD keyword? only the "CTAN SHARDS faction"?
What do you even make of the limitation as its spelled out in the codex then?
I dont know what to even make of that. Are you playing with all dynasty bonuses for all C'Tans and the T Vault because none of them have the CTAN SHARD keyword? only the "CTAN SHARDS faction"?
What do you even make of the limitation as its spelled out in the codex then?
I dont know either. Without the right keyword ctans wouldnt be able to pick any of their powers. Is it a mistake ? Is SHARD and SHARDS a mistake ? Neither of the two has been changed in the necron FAQ. Is it intentional ? Are CTAN SHARDS a new faction now ? What are the consequences of that ? Can we use this to our advantage ? Have we played necron wrong ? I have no idea. Another weird thing is on pg. 82. It says keyword <DYNASTY>. No unit in the entire codex has the keyword <DYNASTY>.
I dont know what to even make of that. Are you playing with all dynasty bonuses for all C'Tans and the T Vault because none of them have the CTAN SHARD keyword? only the "CTAN SHARDS faction"?
What do you even make of the limitation as its spelled out in the codex then?
I dont know either. Without the right keyword ctans wouldnt be able to pick any of their powers. Is it a mistake ? Is SHARD and SHARDS a mistake ? Neither of the two has been changed in the necron FAQ. Is it intentional ? Are CTAN SHARDS a new faction now ? What are the consequences of that ? Can we use this to our advantage ? Have we played necron wrong ? I have no idea. Another weird thing is on pg. 82. It says keyword <DYNASTY>. No unit in the entire codex has the keyword <DYNASTY>.
<DYNASTY> just means "insert the dynasty you chose", ie it could mean Sautekh, NIhilakh etc.
If you have a Sautekh cryptek with the Veil, he can no use that on any Sautekh infantry, since they share the same dynasty.
I dont know what to even make of that. Are you playing with all dynasty bonuses for all C'Tans and the T Vault because none of them have the CTAN SHARD keyword? only the "CTAN SHARDS faction"?
What do you even make of the limitation as its spelled out in the codex then?
I dont know either. Without the right keyword ctans wouldnt be able to pick any of their powers. Is it a mistake ? Is SHARD and SHARDS a mistake ? Neither of the two has been changed in the necron FAQ. Is it intentional ? Are CTAN SHARDS a new faction now ? What are the consequences of that ? Can we use this to our advantage ? Have we played necron wrong ? I have no idea. Another weird thing is on pg. 82. It says keyword <DYNASTY>. No unit in the entire codex has the keyword <DYNASTY>.
<DYNASTY> just means "insert the dynasty you chose", ie it could mean Sautekh, NIhilakh etc.
If you have a Sautekh cryptek with the Veil, he can no use that on any Sautekh infantry, since they share the same dynasty.
I know what dynasty means, and what the rules are. Or, what we think they are supposed to be. Which may be not the same what GW intended, because of their ridiculous rule writings.
I dont know what to even make of that. Are you playing with all dynasty bonuses for all C'Tans and the T Vault because none of them have the CTAN SHARD keyword? only the "CTAN SHARDS faction"?
What do you even make of the limitation as its spelled out in the codex then?
I dont know either. Without the right keyword ctans wouldnt be able to pick any of their powers. Is it a mistake ? Is SHARD and SHARDS a mistake ? Neither of the two has been changed in the necron FAQ. Is it intentional ? Are CTAN SHARDS a new faction now ? What are the consequences of that ? Can we use this to our advantage ? Have we played necron wrong ? I have no idea. Another weird thing is on pg. 82. It says keyword <DYNASTY>. No unit in the entire codex has the keyword <DYNASTY>.
<DYNASTY> just means "insert the dynasty you chose", ie it could mean Sautekh, NIhilakh etc.
If you have a Sautekh cryptek with the Veil, he can no use that on any Sautekh infantry, since they share the same dynasty.
I know what dynasty means, and what the rules are. Or, what we think they are supposed to be. Which may be not the same what GW intended, because of their ridiculous rule writings.
I feel pretty confident that they meant to address C'Tan shards when they exempted CTAN SHARD from dynasty bonuses. It makes sense in all kinds of ways. They may have unknowingly and unintendedly also included the T Vault in the same operation, it would be nice to have a FAQ answer to that.
2 seasoned command squads with plasma in a Chimera and platon commander
3 Scout sentinels
3 heavy bolter squads
1 mortar team
5 leman russes, including one Tank Commander
1 defense searchlight
Deployment (my second DDA is just not seen on top of the building on the far left):
We played the Maelstroem mission where you have to hold objectives to get missions. Deployed with arrows pointing towards one another.
TURN 1:
Necrons: I got first turn. Eager to try out the Doom Scythe stratagem, I flew up and found a sweet spot that would hit the 3 tanks on the right flank. I hit two of them dealing 6MW each. One of the DDAs went on to finish one of them off. 9 tomb blades and tesla immortals started working on the entrenched heavy bolter squads in the building straight ahead. Decent start of the match with 1.5 leman russes taken out of the game, a guards squad gone and a couple of wounds on the heavy bolters squads. Held 3 objectives, aiming for the 4th in the center.
AM: Shot the DDA on top of the far left building. Wasted shots trying to take out the flyers, dealt some wounds to several, -1 to hit really helped. Didn't even bother with the tomb blades' -1 to hit, they were now controlling the middle. His chimera with the plasma squads headed forward. I was unaware of the danger inside.
TURN 2 onwards:
Necrons: Flyers moved from right to left, found another sweet spot hitting 3 infantry blobs and 2 HQs with the stratagem. Only rolling to wound the 3 guards units though, killing 19 guardsmen. Their tesla cannons plonked off a few more, including one psyker. Started working ont he chimera but was 1 wound short of killing it.
AM: Killed one flyer finally, after throwing tons of shots at them. SURPRISE: The chimera sped ahead passed the center building, unlloaded two small plasma squads that killed my cryptek (their regiment bonus let them target characters).
Necrons: Withered down the heavy weapons teams and with the infantry squads neutralized on the other side and tanks busy shooting at flyers, the tesla immortals started moving forward, claiming the center objective. Tomb blades jumped ahead just right of the center to claim an objective in AM's deployment zone on my right flank. Doom Scythes finished off another tank and DDA brought one more to the last bracket.
AM: advanced an infantry squad on my right flank, but it was stuck in endless combat with 5 tesla immortals of mine.
After this we called it at end of turn 3. He wasn't getting any objectives and I was dominating the battle field and had a 10 point lead.
---------
Thoughts
The Doom scythes were fun to play with. You have to plan their movement carefully though. Coming turn 4 they would have likely flown out of range.
9 tomb blades were quite the asset too. They have -1 to hit which is awesome against AM. Having 9 of them, with RP, means he is reluctant to start wearing them down. Rather going after flyers and tesla immortals first. Tomb blades jumped all over the place, grabing objectives, withering down heavy squads, finishing off sentinels (which would otherwise prevent my immortals from firing).
DDAs did their job. tesla immortals didn't really get to see any action, but their presence made him hold his guardsmen back until his tanks could clear them, which they never got around to.
We agreed that AM should be able to come back into the game even after my turn 1. A decent list should be able to suffer 1.5 tank casualties and still have a fighting chance. His list over all might not have been the best one. He was really missing Pask.
But all in all fun game. The mission favored the bold, which were the Necrons this game.
Interesting to try something a bit different. Hopefully we get some points adjustments that would let us use our flyers in competitive play.
Tomb blades are great, so fast! But yeah they suck to put together. I think 6 might be the sweet spot as you don't need to worry about morale then either.
I like how minus 1 to hit was your strongest part of the list, yet factions like Alaitoc and Stygies get it army wide for free (cries in minus 2 to hit Alaitoc flyers).
torblind wrote: SURPRISE: The chimera sped ahead passed the center building, unlloaded two small plasma squads that killed my cryptek (their regiment bonus let them target characters).
Only part I see as an issue is that units normally disembark before the transport moves, what let him disembark the plasma after the Chimera moved?
Hi guys, I have a small 1000pts tournament and I'm struggling to fit anything decent under it. The tournament uses Chapter Approved missions.
It either turns into a silver tide of warriors or I run short of points too quickly.
Spoiler:
My current list is sitting at the following:
4 CPs Spearhead detachment (1000pts)
Sautekh
CCB - Lightning Field and Enduring Will, tesla/WS 4x Wraiths
2x DDAs Transcendant C'tan - Random Personality, Anti-matter meteor, Sky of Falling Stars
My thought is that enemies will have no real good targets for their weapons as anything low-strength suffers to wound T6 and anything high-strength either stops at the wraith invuln or the DDA QS. To save my wraiths from smite mortal wounds one of the DDAs would deploy ahead of them and tentatively advance with them. CCB can MWBD itself and with LF+Enduring will is a pain to deal with.
Enemies should be focusing everything they got on the DDAs giving me time to move in and bring the C'tan, CCB and Wraiths to the fight.
If you want to keep your wraith safe from smites i suggest scarabs. They are dirt cheap and have lots of wounds. A DDA is way to expensive as a smite shield. The CCB cant MWBD itself, its not INFANTRY.
I'm also not sure why you're going Sautekh; the DDAs will want to sit still to maximize their firepower anyways, and you're not using the Hyperlogical Strategist trait (arguably one of the stronger reasons to go Sautekh).
Maybe consider Nihilakh to make your DDAs more reliable, or Nephrekh to give your Wraiths more speed?
Either way, I think your list has a lot of "big" things, but nothing that's overtly threatening, and you lack numbers to split off and take multiple objectives, with any significant firepower to shoot anything off the board (the DDAs are going to only really be useful against single model targets), so until you can get the Wraiths to engage, you're banking entirely on opportunity shots from DDAs and the C'Tan for mortal wounds for ranged damage.
Also, Enduring Will is actually a terrible Warlord trait for a CCB, since it works counter to Quantum Shielding. By reducing all incoming damage by 1, you're making it harder to pass your Quantum Shielding rolls.
I would probably bring something like this to a 1000 point event:
5 Destroyers
- 4 Gauss Cannons
- 1 Heavy Gauss Cannon (I'd almost be inclined to swap this for another Gauss Cannon, but I think the redundant AT will help when you roll poorly for the DDA's shots)
The Destroyer Lord is incredibly durable and will be an unkillable beatstick (just roll those 4+'s), Cryptek babysits the Destroyers, and Tomb Blades zip around taking objectives, using the extra mobility if they need the guaranteed speed boost.
I probably wouldn't take more than 1 DDA; 1000 points isn't a lot of room to play with, and spending almost 40% of your points on 2 of them kind of feels inefficient.
I'd go Destroyers over Wraiths at 1000 points simply because Wraiths need to be in combat to do anything. The Destroyers will be able to apply pressure from turn 1 and start removing enemy units off the board.
I'll read the report later but seriously excellent paintwork.
Thanks! Walked around a tad lighter at work today thanks to you! The scythes patterns are stolen/motivated from very similarly painted scythes, easily found on Pinterest or Google images (only they're grey brownish bit with the same light gradient) I just adapted to my blue theme.
At a distance and from above they do pop
iGuy91 wrote: To be fair, if he had Pask, you'd have shot and killed pask first, and it'd have been an even better turn 1 for you.
Its also the first time i've read of a bombardment strategem really pulling its weight.
I'd consider running 9 TBs, but man....I hate putting those models together...like good lord they suck to put together
This is true, it was also about playing the regiment of his, rerolling hits all over the place woth orders, which would have been nice with all my -1 to hit. But yeah, he could have placed him away from where my scythes would blast mortal wounds, but both DDAs would have done a number on him most certainly.
TBs.. yup, mine are a year old, still only half finished projects.. but I'm really softening up to the idea of having them dirt cheap and in large numbers. Very versatile and still quite shooty. 18 wounds T5 with some 3+ and some 5++ and RP and -1 to hit will likely make him shoot something else first.
torblind wrote: SURPRISE: The chimera sped ahead passed the center building, unlloaded two small plasma squads that killed my cryptek (their regiment bonus let them target characters).
Only part I see as an issue is that units normally disembark before the transport moves, what let him disembark the plasma after the Chimera moved?
I probably don't remember that bit right. I'm pretty sure he did it right, was already quite near the middle the turn before.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DV8 wrote: I'm also not sure why you're going Sautekh; the DDAs will want to sit still to maximize their firepower anyways, and you're not using the Hyperlogical Strategist trait (arguably one of the stronger reasons to go Sautekh).
Maybe consider Nihilakh to make your DDAs more reliable, or Nephrekh to give your Wraiths more speed?
Either way, I think your list has a lot of "big" things, but nothing that's overtly threatening, and you lack numbers to split off and take multiple objectives, with any significant firepower to shoot anything off the board (the DDAs are going to only really useful against single model targets), so until you can get the Wraiths to engage, you're banking entirely on opportunity shots from DDAs and the C'Tan for mortal wounds for ranged damage.
Also, Enduring Will is actually a terrible Warlord trait for a CCB, since it works counter to Quantum Shielding. By reducing all incoming damage by 1, you're making it harder to pass your Quantum Shielding rolls.
I would probably bring something like this to a 1000 point event:
5 Destroyers
- 4 Gauss Cannons
- 1 Heavy Gauss Cannon (I'd almost be inclined to swap this for another Gauss Cannon, but I think the redundant AT will help when you roll poorly for the DDA's shots)
The Destroyer Lord is incredibly durable and will be an unkillable beatstick (just roll those 4+'s), Cryptek babysits the Destroyers, and Tomb Blades zip around taking objectives, using the extra mobility if they need the guaranteed speed boost.
I probably wouldn't take more than 1 DDA; 1000 points isn't a lot of room to play with, and spending almost 40% of your points on 2 of them kind of feels inefficient.
I'd go Destroyers over Wraiths at 1000 points simply because Wraiths need to be in combat to do anything. The Destroyers will be able to apply pressure from turn 1 and start removing enemy units off the board.
They fixed the CCB QS ruling to our advantage in the last FAQ. First QS then reduce by 1
torblind wrote: They fixed the CCB QS ruling to our advantage in the last FAQ. First QS then reduce by 1
Do you have a link to this FAQ? The one I'm still seeing on Warhammer Community does not mention this.
Its in chapter approved 2017 errata. Typical GW, you have to look everywhere for updates.
Q: I choose my Overlord on a Catacomb Command Barge to be
my Warlord, and give him the Enduring Will trait. He then gets
shot by a lascannon that hits, wounds, isn’t saved and causes
4 points of damage. How do I apply Quantum Shielding and
Enduring Will?
A: Resolve the Quantum Shielding ability first. If any
damage is suffered, the Enduring Will trait then applies.
iGuy91 wrote: To be fair, if he had Pask, you'd have shot and killed pask first, and it'd have been an even better turn 1 for you.
Its also the first time i've read of a bombardment strategem really pulling its weight.
I'd consider running 9 TBs, but man....I hate putting those models together...like good lord they suck to put together
I got tired after putting a box together. That says a lot because I didn't really do anything else that day.
I gotta say. My friends love to tease me about 'OH ITS SO EASY TO PAINT A NECRON ARMY'
Then I lay on them how absurdly annoying they are to physically assemble. Tons of tiny, spindly bits, tiny wrists, tiny arms, ball joints instead of convenient 'marine surfaces'
Then they shut up.
Anyway. Whats the best way to run a Gauss Pylon at 2k? takes a huge hunk out of your army.
iGuy91 wrote: To be fair, if he had Pask, you'd have shot and killed pask first, and it'd have been an even better turn 1 for you.
Its also the first time i've read of a bombardment strategem really pulling its weight.
I'd consider running 9 TBs, but man....I hate putting those models together...like good lord they suck to put together
I got tired after putting a box together. That says a lot because I didn't really do anything else that day.
I gotta say. My friends love to tease me about 'OH ITS SO EASY TO PAINT A NECRON ARMY'
Then I lay on them how absurdly annoying they are to physically assemble. Tons of tiny, spindly bits, tiny wrists, tiny arms, ball joints instead of convenient 'marine surfaces'
Then they shut up.
Want to REALLY shut someone up? Ask them kindly to put together your Triarch Stalker for you.
They'll never accept another favor from you again.
Anyway. Whats the best way to run a Gauss Pylon at 2k? takes a huge hunk out of your army.
Run it as nihilakh, put it within 3" of an objective, and play reclaim a lost empire on it twice, giving it a 3+ invsv. You can play the stratagem twice because its at the end of your turn, which is outside of a phase. Also run a double battalion to get the CP needed. Works better with a tvault though, giving it a 2+ invsv.
Sooo how do we fight against Dark Eldar? Most of my Games against them were complete and total losses . Most of the Time my 2 DDAS have enormous trouble to destroy atleast one Raider or Ravager.
My Destroyers (6) "could" deal alot of damgage if they would survive T1 or get in Ranger. Whenever they are in Range they destroy 1-2 Raiders and die afterwards. My Wratihs have proven to be quite situational but are very vulnerable to poison weapons.
Could Tomb Blades or maybe a Monolith do the Trick? Or just throwing more Warriors into the Breach?
I mostly play nihilakh or mephrit.
Am i missing sth? Any help would be really appreciated.
Sooo how do we fight against Dark Eldar? Most of my Games against them were complete and total losses . Most of the Time my 2 DDAS have enormous trouble to destroy atleast one Raider or Ravager.
My Destroyers (6) "could" deal alot of damgage if they would survive T1 or get in Ranger. Whenever they are in Range they destroy 1-2 Raiders and die afterwards. My Wratihs have proven to be quite situational but are very vulnerable to poison weapons.
Could Tomb Blades or maybe a Monolith do the Trick? Or just throwing more Warriors into the Breach?
I mostly play nihilakh or mephrit.
Am i missing sth? Any help would be really appreciated.
Thanks Guys!
Pretty sure based on my math that 6 destroyers can destroy 2 of those vehicles a turn splitting fire. Issue is keeping them alive.
How best to do that? I suggest Nephrek, and putting them in deep strike.
DDAs are kind of a waste vs DE. They don't have anything high armor that cares about AP-5. Honestly, you'd be almost better spamming a whole bunch more tesla immortals.
Mephrit is also a waste vs DE. they don't have armor. -1 AP is useless vs them, and they will be able to stay out of rapid fire if they wish.
Pretty sure based on my math that 6 destroyers can destroy 2 of those vehicles a turn splitting fire. Issue is keeping them alive.
How best to do that? I suggest Nephrek, and putting them in deep strike.
DDAs are kind of a waste vs DE. They don't have anything high armor that cares about AP-5. Honestly, you'd be almost better spamming a whole bunch more tesla immortals.
Tanks for the help.
I thought about Gauss Immortals because of the high amount of -1 to hit.
Most of the time there are about 20 Immortals and 20 Warriors in my lists, they die very ( I mean very very) quick to the poison or the Shredders. Cover is more or less situative at best because his transports can ignore it.
Pretty sure based on my math that 6 destroyers can destroy 2 of those vehicles a turn splitting fire. Issue is keeping them alive.
How best to do that? I suggest Nephrek, and putting them in deep strike.
DDAs are kind of a waste vs DE. They don't have anything high armor that cares about AP-5. Honestly, you'd be almost better spamming a whole bunch more tesla immortals.
Tanks for the help.
I thought about Gauss Immortals because of the high amount of -1 to hit.
Most of the time there are about 20 Immortals and 20 Warriors in my lists, they die very ( I mean very very) quick to the poison or the Shredders. Cover is more or less situative at best because his transports can ignore it.
But i could swap the Arks... Any Suggestions?
Well, remember, with MWBD, and then using Phaeron's will you can buff 2 tesla squads to ensure they proc on 6s as usual.
I mean, the Arks give you great range, but they really don't need to sit still. They can (and should) move around to get their gauss arrays into use.
iGuy91 wrote: To be fair, if he had Pask, you'd have shot and killed pask first, and it'd have been an even better turn 1 for you.
Its also the first time i've read of a bombardment strategem really pulling its weight.
I'd consider running 9 TBs, but man....I hate putting those models together...like good lord they suck to put together
I got tired after putting a box together. That says a lot because I didn't really do anything else that day.
I gotta say. My friends love to tease me about 'OH ITS SO EASY TO PAINT A NECRON ARMY'
Then I lay on them how absurdly annoying they are to physically assemble. Tons of tiny, spindly bits, tiny wrists, tiny arms, ball joints instead of convenient 'marine surfaces'
Then they shut up.
Anyway. Whats the best way to run a Gauss Pylon at 2k? takes a huge hunk out of your army.
Yeah, that's what I noticed too. Super easy to paint, but a complete ass to assemble. Especially the vehicles. I like the Arks, they are nice models visually, but they are a chore to assemble. I would have preferred a more geometric design, like the monolith.
Even the warriors are horrible to assemble. They keep bending over.
The plastic immortals are surprisingly nice though. Everything fits together, and the cable stops the model from bending over like the warriors.
5 Destroyers
- 4 Gauss Cannons
- 1 Heavy Gauss Cannon (I'd almost be inclined to swap this for another Gauss Cannon, but I think the redundant AT will help when you roll poorly for the DDA's shots)
The Destroyer Lord is incredibly durable and will be an unkillable beatstick (just roll those 4+'s), Cryptek babysits the Destroyers, and Tomb Blades zip around taking objectives, using the extra mobility if they need the guaranteed speed boost.
I probably wouldn't take more than 1 DDA; 1000 points isn't a lot of room to play with, and spending almost 40% of your points on 2 of them kind of feels inefficient.
I'd go Destroyers over Wraiths at 1000 points simply because Wraiths need to be in combat to do anything. The Destroyers will be able to apply pressure from turn 1 and start removing enemy units off the board.
Thanks, that list you propose sounds nasty but I don't have a lot of experience running small squads of Tomb Blades like this. Do you keep them at maximum distance for survivability and just go for far off objectives that the enemy can't get to or do you trust their -1/T5 to keep them alive?
5 Destroyers
- 4 Gauss Cannons
- 1 Heavy Gauss Cannon (I'd almost be inclined to swap this for another Gauss Cannon, but I think the redundant AT will help when you roll poorly for the DDA's shots)
The Destroyer Lord is incredibly durable and will be an unkillable beatstick (just roll those 4+'s), Cryptek babysits the Destroyers, and Tomb Blades zip around taking objectives, using the extra mobility if they need the guaranteed speed boost.
I probably wouldn't take more than 1 DDA; 1000 points isn't a lot of room to play with, and spending almost 40% of your points on 2 of them kind of feels inefficient.
I'd go Destroyers over Wraiths at 1000 points simply because Wraiths need to be in combat to do anything. The Destroyers will be able to apply pressure from turn 1 and start removing enemy units off the board.
Thanks, that list you propose sounds nasty but I don't have a lot of experience running small squads of Tomb Blades like this. Do you keep them at maximum distance for survivability and just go for far off objectives that the enemy can't get to or do you trust their -1/T5 to keep them alive?
Difficult to say. I'm a fairly aggressive but relatively risk-averse player, so I tend to over-commit resources in order to minimize the likelihood of bad dice rolls impacting my game plans (plus I tend to be fairly adaptable, so I love mobility in my lists as it plays right into my style).
Tomb Blades, combined with their high mobility, are better suited to, as you say, keeping the enemy at a distance and maximizing their advantages. Tesla (without Mephrit) is just as effective at 1" as it is at 24", so you're better to keep the enemy at arm's length so that you're avoiding charges and rapid fire ranges. The -1 to hit and T5 are advantages, but you're only 6 wounds, and any multi-damage weapons will eat through your Tomb Blades.
But if they're firing those weapons at your TBs, they're not targeting your Destroyers and your DDA, which you use to your advantage. Target priority will depend on specific objectives and the opponent, but if I'm looking to keep my TB alive for objectives, then maybe I'll prioritize units that can immediately threaten them; clearing out units that might be too close to an objective for comfort.
Conversely, if they're focusing on your Destroyers or DDA, they're leaving your TBs to run amuck and create havoc. You can use that to your advantage to grab those objectives, and don't forget that with Nephrekh, you auto-advance 6". Sometimes it's worth it to advance, losing Tesla proc, but being able to grab those distant objectives.
The Destroyers should also screen for the Destroyer Lord, who will aggressively hunt down units and either destroy them or just engage them in combat. At 1000 points, I don't think there's a whole heck of a lot that's a real threat to him without significant points investment. And at the very least, he's very very difficult to kill and makes a great tarpit. You can use that to your advantage. And by having your Destroyers + DLord controlling the center of the board, you're able to threaten any position.
That said, if I feel that by sacrificing a TB squad to take an objective that will swing the objective points heavily in my favor, I will easily take that trade if it will secure me the game.
I got another game against a pretty competitive Admech list this Friday. Think this list will do the trick?
I expect a Cawl Castle, with infiltrating elctropriests. This seem to work?
The List
Spoiler:
Nephrek Bat
Cryptek w/ Chrono, SoL
Overlord with SoL, Immortal Pride
x10 Immortals with Tesla
x10 Immortals with Tesla
x20 Warriors
Doomsday Ark
x3 Heavy Destroyers
Nephrek Outrider
Destroyer Lord with VoD, SoL
x9 Scarab Swarms
x6 Wraiths
x6 Destroyers (In Deep Strike)
That's really insightful. Have you tried running particle beamers instead of Tesla? I know their damage output is low but could shave off points for an extra destroyer.
iGuy91 wrote: To be fair, if he had Pask, you'd have shot and killed pask first, and it'd have been an even better turn 1 for you.
Its also the first time i've read of a bombardment strategem really pulling its weight.
I'd consider running 9 TBs, but man....I hate putting those models together...like good lord they suck to put together
I got tired after putting a box together. That says a lot because I didn't really do anything else that day.
I gotta say. My friends love to tease me about 'OH ITS SO EASY TO PAINT A NECRON ARMY'
Then I lay on them how absurdly annoying they are to physically assemble. Tons of tiny, spindly bits, tiny wrists, tiny arms, ball joints instead of convenient 'marine surfaces'
Then they shut up.
Anyway. Whats the best way to run a Gauss Pylon at 2k? takes a huge hunk out of your army.
Yeah, that's what I noticed too. Super easy to paint, but a complete ass to assemble. Especially the vehicles. I like the Arks, they are nice models visually, but they are a chore to assemble. I would have preferred a more geometric design, like the monolith.
Even the warriors are horrible to assemble. They keep bending over.
The plastic immortals are surprisingly nice though. Everything fits together, and the cable stops the model from bending over like the warriors.
The cables didn't stop all my Tesla Immortals bending right over; the carbines were front-heavy enough to require a lot of babysitting to get them the model halves to bond in a halfway decent way. It's ironic that, given their entire shtick, my Necrons are the one army I own where the models consistently fall apart. I remember when I first started them, and there wasn't a single game night or trip I made with them that didn't end in bits coming off, mainly things like heads and those flimsy little pieces at the ends of tesla carbines and gauss flayers--I've decided not to bother adding them to the end of my carbines now--but waist joints also enjoy coming apart, because who'd have guessed trying to get a small ball to adhere inside a cavity massively oversized for it would result in a weak joint? (Well, anyone who plays Necrons, I guess. )
I dread the day my Destroyers start falling apart, because they were another pain to put together without essentially building scaffolding around each one.
On a different topic, I took my 1.5k Destroyer list out for its first run--and my first game of 40k in 6 years--last week, and got an overwhelming victory against an admittedly more fluffy than competitive CSM list, but also learned that they've moved to 2k at that store since I last played there those 6 years ago. So I've been having a look at how best to move up to it and I just... can't. Not without looking at Forgeworld/stupidly huge and expensive models, or models that I dislike (DDAs) or are noted to be very difficult to build (Tomb Blades, though DDAs also fit here). It's also the point where Immortals become very difficult to justify taking outside of 3x 5 for battalion CP, and I really like Tesla Immortals--plus I've put together 30 of the fethers and I'll be damned if I'm letting that time go to waste.
It feels to me like Necrons at 2k is a downgrade for me in just about every aspect: fewer models I actually like the look of and like to use; more models I dislike but are tactically necessary. I'm struggling to build anything without at least one DDA, for example, if not two, and the way some of our things are costed makes trying to fit things in around each other can be awkward; I've got one 2k list written up with 7 spare points, because there's nothing I can actually buy for less than 9.
How much of a tight spot are 'Crons in at 2k? Can I get away with something a little less optimal for the sake of including models I actually like?
Crons work pretty well at 2k in my mind. I haven't yet played a game in 8th with my crons, index or codex where I felt completely overmatched at 2k, so I don't buy the doom and gloom, outside of bleeding edge competitive play, I think we manage.
Honestly, you just listed most of the best units in the dex.
Tesla Immortals backed by MWDB, DDAs, Destroyers, and Tomb Blades are arguably our best (Non-Forge World) units.
iGuy91 wrote: Honestly, you just listed most of the best units in the dex.
Tesla Immortals backed by MWDB, DDAs, Destroyers, and Tomb Blades are arguably our best (Non-Forge World) units.
I know I did, my issue is that, of those, I only really like the Immortals and Destroyers, and even then there's a bit of disagreement I've seen in this thread on whether the Immortals are best run as full units or as MSU at 2k. I like the Destroyer Lord--Rule of Cool--and I like Wraiths, so I want to find ways of keeping them in. Scarabs are fun, and I like the physical look of Spyders, though unlike the Scarabs, Wraiths and even the D Lord at a push, Spyders are too far down the 'trash' list for me to consider using them. I'm also a fan of Annihilation Barges and the CCB, but they're both far too overcosted and fragile, and even a Transcendent C'tan seems fun in concept, if a bit too random for its cost.
I can make a 1.5k list well enough using only things I like, but upscaling it to 2k without having to include things I'm not all that fond of is proving diffcult, unless I want something disjointed that doesn't really have a focus.
EDIT: For example, the best compromise list I've come up with has 2 DDAs in it, which is already an entire carry case by themselves even without having to build the damn things. Taking them out leaves me very bare of AT, and even removing one leaves me with a job trying to use up the free points, given 193 is a very finicky amount. It's nearly 4 Destroyers; 3 and a half Wraiths; 11 and a half Immortals; 5 and a half shieldvaned Tomb Blades; nearly 15 Scarabs, etc. None of those is enough by themselves for a worthwhile unit at 2k except the Immortals and the Scarabs, but then I've got 1.5 Immortals left over to try and spend the points of, or altogether far too many scarabs since I already invested beforehand. I suppose the Wraiths *might* be okay as Nihilak objective campers, but then I've half a wraith to spend. So I could buy 10 Immortals, but I've already got the 15-30 I need for a Battalion. I've got a choice of several too-small units, a potentialy barely-usable unit of Wraiths, or more scarabs than you'll ever need; so I start to look for units to top up, but they're all already full. So I look for things to cut to try and get something else, and then I have to cut other things, rejig the entire list, and I end up realising that, at the end of it all, the second DDA was still probably the best tactical choice after all.
arhurt wrote:That's really insightful. Have you tried running particle beamers instead of Tesla? I know their damage output is low but could shave off points for an extra destroyer.
With Destroyers and Doomsday Ark(s), I typically have my heavy firepower handled. I don't like running my Tomb Blades too close to the enemy, and I need volume of firepower for handling larger enemy units, so I find Tesla for 4x S5 shots with the potential for extra hits is better than the 3x S6 shots you'd get from a Particle Caster. But your mileage may vary; try mixing it up and see what works best for you.
One caveat I do want to point out is that, in my mind, Tesla is a far better weapon than Particle Beamers, especially in the kind of list I suggested. By downgrading them to Particles, you are making the Tomb Blades less effective and as a result, less of a threat, pushing more of the priority onto your Destroyers and DDA. You have to consider whether that trade off is worth 1 extra Destroyer.
Avatar 720 wrote:
Spoiler:
On a different topic, I took my 1.5k Destroyer list out for its first run--and my first game of 40k in 6 years--last week, and got an overwhelming victory against an admittedly more fluffy than competitive CSM list, but also learned that they've moved to 2k at that store since I last played there those 6 years ago. So I've been having a look at how best to move up to it and I just... can't. Not without looking at Forgeworld/stupidly huge and expensive models, or models that I dislike (DDAs) or are noted to be very difficult to build (Tomb Blades, though DDAs also fit here). It's also the point where Immortals become very difficult to justify taking outside of 3x 5 for battalion CP, and I really like Tesla Immortals--plus I've put together 30 of the fethers and I'll be damned if I'm letting that time go to waste.
It feels to me like Necrons at 2k is a downgrade for me in just about every aspect: fewer models I actually like the look of and like to use; more models I dislike but are tactically necessary. I'm struggling to build anything without at least one DDA, for example, if not two, and the way some of our things are costed makes trying to fit things in around each other can be awkward; I've got one 2k list written up with 7 spare points, because there's nothing I can actually buy for less than 9.
How much of a tight spot are 'Crons in at 2k? Can I get away with something a little less optimal for the sake of including models I actually like?
There are a couple of ways to go about building a 2k list, IMO. And I do want to preface this that I don't play big tournaments, and understand that Necrons are (as a book) solidly a middle of the pack book. It comes down to the players to make it work for the specific event, the scenario, and their playstyle.
I feel that often-times trying to cram a Necron Battalion is a bit of a trap, and you end up paying an unnecessary tax to try and stack CPs, because of the notion that Necrons are a CP-thirsty army.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with running 30x Tesla Immortals; combined with MWBD and The Phaeron's Will, they become incredible damage dealers. But to make them really effective, you need to support them with the right combination of buffs, so you'll more than likely be building your army around this core, and including units that can properly support them.
One of the thematic problems with Necrons is that their units are hyper-focused. They tend to do one thing very well, and nothing else. Unfortunately, DDAs fill the role of AT very well, and you'd be hard-pressed to find a unit that (for the points) will do it as effectively, while remaining as durable. Heavy Destroyers are an alternative, but nowhere near as effective. If you can convert Wraiths to make a Tomb Sentinel, they can perform the job quite admirably (and trade potentially high damage output for damage consistency, since they're Damage 3 vs the Damage D6 of the DDA). But if you cut out the DDA, you're going to be hard pressed to find something that can match it's potential damage output, point for point (and at 2k, 2x DDA is usually recommended so you can average out 7 shots between the two for some consistency).
Tomb Blades are fantastic, but not necessarily required. They perform the same function as Tesla Immortals, but trade sheer damage output (they're not infantry, so can't be buffed with MWBD) for speed and durability (especially with the -1 to hit and T5).
Destroyers are still always going to be solid work-horses, so trying to combine 2x Destroyer Units with a core of 30 Tesla Immortals, and filling the gaps where necessary could give you a solid 2k list.
The bottom line is that yes, you can build a good list bringing what you want and, assuming competent generalship, do decently middle of the pack (meaning you perform average comparatively). But when you build these lists, you have to at least acknowledge that by not bringing units like the DDA and taking sub-optimal choices, you are deliberately hamstringing yourself from more efficient-performing choices.
Might I ask how you're approaching your list-building, and what your lists look like?
There's two reasons I can think of why you want to get particle beamers
1) You're short on points.
2) You're planning on advancing a lot. A particle beamer is a bit more effective when you are advancing than a tesla cannon, as the tesla cannon cannot proc its extra hits on an advance.
DV8 wrote: I don't like running my Tomb Blades too close to the enemy, and I need volume of firepower for handling larger enemy units, so I find Tesla for 4x S5 shots with the potential for extra hits is better than the 3x S6 shots you'd get from a Particle Caster. But your mileage may vary; try mixing it up and see what works best for you.
Oh please, charge my mephrit tesla tomb blades They are insanely good when overwatching. A 6 model unit has 24 shots. Thats 12 hits on average with S5 AP-1 D1 On my turn i can fallback and shoot again
One caveat I do want to point out is that, in my mind, Tesla is a far better weapon than Particle Beamers, especially in the kind of list I suggested. By downgrading them to Particles, you are making the Tomb Blades less effective and as a result, less of a threat, pushing more of the priority onto your Destroyers and DDA. You have to consider whether that trade off is worth 1 extra Destroyer.
I agree. Tesla is better than beamers. The only advantage with beamers is you get more models, making it harder to wipe out the unit. 6 tesla tomb blades are 192 pts and have 24 shots, 8 beamer tomb blades are also 192 pts and also have 24 shots. And you have S6 instead of S5.
Avatar 720 wrote:
I feel that often-times trying to cram a Necron Battalion is a bit of a trap, and you end up paying an unnecessary tax to try and stack CPs, because of the notion that Necrons are a CP-thirsty army.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with running 30x Tesla Immortals; combined with MWBD and The Phaeron's Will, they become incredible damage dealers. But to make them really effective, you need to support them with the right combination of buffs, so you'll more than likely be building your army around this core, and including units that can properly support them.
Necrons arent really CP hungry. If you use imotekh you dont need to spend 1 CP for phaerons will each turn, and he gives you 1 additional CP. Destroyers need EP each turn, thats 1 CP. Solar pulse is nice to remove cover, also only 1 CP.
DV8 wrote: I don't like running my Tomb Blades too close to the enemy, and I need volume of firepower for handling larger enemy units, so I find Tesla for 4x S5 shots with the potential for extra hits is better than the 3x S6 shots you'd get from a Particle Caster. But your mileage may vary; try mixing it up and see what works best for you.
Oh please, charge my mephrit tesla tomb blades They are insanely good when overwatching. A 6 model unit has 24 shots. Thats 12 hits on average with S5 AP-1 D1 On my turn i can fallback and shoot again
Indeed! If you run something akin to a silver tide, or just two immortal units close to each other, Tom blades are a very nice CC screen, to prevent your enemy from locking your infantry in CC. Drop them down in front of your Mephrit Warrior blob, force your enemy to go through them first (unless they Fly), kill half in overwatch, then fly away and have the warriors light them up, and RP to recoup from CC losses.
One caveat I do want to point out is that, in my mind, Tesla is a far better weapon than Particle Beamers, especially in the kind of list I suggested. By downgrading them to Particles, you are making the Tomb Blades less effective and as a result, less of a threat, pushing more of the priority onto your Destroyers and DDA. You have to consider whether that trade off is worth 1 extra Destroyer.
I agree. Tesla is better than beamers. The only advantage with beamers is you get more models, making it harder to wipe out the unit. 6 tesla tomb blades are 192 pts and have 24 shots, 8 beamer tomb blades are also 192 pts and also have 24 shots. And you have S6 instead of S5.
While that is true, its very misleading.
Those tesla blades give you 24 hits from those 24 shots. The beamers only give you 16 hits from those 24 shots.
Against T3 (where the strength difference likely comes in effect), the tesla's outperform beamers, even with -1 to hit. At T6 with -1 to hit, beamers are slightly better, but at this and higher Toughnesses the armor save is usually so good that they blades don't really shine that well with no-AP weapons.
I mean, it also really depends on what you're taking Tomb Blades for and the role they fill in your list.
I run Nihilakh, so my Tomb Blades gain no additional benefit from being up close. In my more casual list, I have a block of 20 Warriors and Ghost Ark to form my blockers, and I use my TBs as longer range firepower and mobility.
In my more competitive list, my entire army is highly mobile, and so I'm less concerned about screening (since I'll be actively seeking to keep my opponent at arms length, I find the risk of combat too great with TBs against any semi decent assault unit).
The balance of S6 vs S5 also depends on what you require the TBs to target. I find Destroyers fill the S6 department very well with better AP and damage, so I'd rather be using my TBs to bring the volume of fire that my Destroyers lack (since I don't take a lot of Immortals too).
An argument could be had for Particles over Tesla if you need to use the TBs as more objective grabbers than damage dealers as well, where movement and advancing with opportunity firepower is more important than optimal damage output.
Bottom line, regardless of how you equip or use them, I feel TBs are a staple in every Necron list because of their sheer flexibility.
I had another 1800 Pt. Game against Dark Eldar today.
My Destroyers (Nepherek) used deepstrike at the end of T2. They were actually quite decent this Time. I could handle to destroy 2 Raiders and cripple a Ravager ( Used my one surviving and mostly destroyed DDA).
But there was still no Chance to win at any time of the match.
My Immortals (2x10) and my Wraiths (6) were completly wipped out by poison and Weapons like the Shredder or Desintegration Cannons.
My Ctan pulled some MW but was focused down by Blasters and Lances.
I had another 1800 Pt. Game against Dark Eldar today.
My Destroyers (Nepherek) used deepstrike at the end of T2. They were actually quite decent this Time. I could handle to destroy 2 Raiders and cripple a Ravager ( Used my one surviving and mostly destroyed DDA).
But there was still no Chance to win at any time of the match.
My Immortals (2x10) and my Wraiths (6) were completly wipped out by poison and Weapons like the Shredder or Desintegration Cannons.
My Ctan pulled some MW but was focused down by Blasters and Lances.
Still dont see a reliable Way to deal with DE...
I mean, Poison weapons don't have AP...did you use cover? Did you deploy right on the edge of your zone, or farther back. To be that devastating, they had to have been close. Shredders are close range guns. Why not deep strike the destroyers turn 1 in your own deployment zone since they'd be in range?
C'tan really don't seem worthwhile vs DE, probably was wasted points. Too much poison and quality shooting.
Scarabs are also good, even small units of 3 scarabs are a significant threat to most DE (it's usually 5-10 kabalites...)
Would you need something like Anrakyr to make them viable in the eventual CC?
I haven't used anrakyr this edition, he obviously would buff your unit but againts Dark Eldar you usually won't need it.
I tend to run 2 units of 19 warriors( we play ITC format so 19 gives up less points than 20). And an unit of immortals.
19 warriors with MWBD hits with most of their attacks, usually 15-16 hits. Against T3 models that's 10-12 wounds, models with a 5+ save tend to die to that. The 6+++ doesn't really help much, you still end up killing 7-8 kabalite warriors. Even without MWBD an unit of 10 warrior will usually kill 3-4 kabalite warriors in assault, many DE players run units of 5 so this is significant.
Kabalite Warriors return attacks on necron warriors are negligible. If you charge 10 warriors into 10 kabalite warriors and kill 4 (likely result 3-5). The remaining kabalites will likely hit 5 times, wound twice, and you will likely fail one 4+ save. You are checking morale at -1, they are checking at -4.
Warriors are viable on their own in cc againts units that are T3 5+ save a d want to be shooting you.
Ideally you don't want to necessarily wipe out the warriors a lot of the times, because you are going to hurt them more than they hurt you in assault you are somewhat protected if your opponent doesn't fall ack with them.
I've used Anrakyr a lot.
For warrior blob support I suggest the following
Anrakyr
Cryptek w/ Chronometron, Warlord w/ Immortal Pride, Veil of Darkness
Lord
x19 Warriors
x19 Warriors
x10 Tesla Immortals
Run the block high and tight, spaghetti lining in to the core of the army, your 3 HQs. Keep the immortals on top of them to prevent enemy from shooting them.
The block is fearless, +1 attack, rerolling 1s to wound. And, Anrakyr can give out 2 MWBD using Phaeron's will. If a block of warriors gets caught in CC with Wyches...use the VoD to just *poof* teleport them out of combat, leaving the wyches open to sustained shooting. Position the warrior brick on the other side of the first warrior brick to keep your fearless bubble intact.
That being said, I have moved away from Anrakyr recently, and run this build from time to time, just using a normal OL now to save points.
I was at the warhammer fest in Düsseldorf and talked to the FW guys about the big spyder thing. No rules yet, release date before the end of the year, so you will be able to give yourself a christmas gift. I made some pictures, but nothing new to see. One is with a vehicle which is little smaller than a rhino.
p5freak wrote: I was at the warhammer fest in Düsseldorf and talked to the FW guys about the big spyder thing. No rules yet, release date before the end of the year, so you will be able to give yourself a christmas gift. I made some pictures, but nothing new to see. One is with a vehicle which is little smaller than a rhino.
Cool, thanks!
Just.. can't really make up my mind what to think of it (which could be good).
p5freak wrote: I was at the warhammer fest in Düsseldorf and talked to the FW guys about the big spyder thing. No rules yet, release date before the end of the year, so you will be able to give yourself a christmas gift. I made some pictures, but nothing new to see. One is with a vehicle which is little smaller than a rhino.
I'm actually suprised by it's size. I thought it would be Titan-sized. But this looks like a regular super-heavy unit, which means he will probably be around 500 points and can at least be an option in a 2000 point army.
p5freak wrote: I was at the warhammer fest in Düsseldorf and talked to the FW guys about the big spyder thing. No rules yet, release date before the end of the year, so you will be able to give yourself a christmas gift. I made some pictures, but nothing new to see. One is with a vehicle which is little smaller than a rhino.
Its meant to be a titanic unit like knights, so its probably gonna be the same points range, around 400-500 pts., i guess. It has two different main guns, which are interchangeable without magnets. Here are more pics.
The plan is to split the list into thirds, 2 Sentry Pylons with a repair Spyder in the middle, with warriors in from and Scarabs screening them, so mirror this on either side of the board, and use the D Lord, big Scarab squad and Wraiths as a fast ball up the middle.
3 wraith arent enough. You will probably lose 1 or 2 until they get into CC. Once the unit is killed you cant reanimate them. Novokh wraith are really good in melee. More wraith are harder to wipe out, and you can roll more reanimation dice. Sentry pylons with heat cannons arent competitive. They are expensive and die pretty easy. If one gets destroyed your spyder can do nothing. You should add a teleportation matrix to protect them turn 1, in case you dont get first turn. Novokh isnt a good dynasty for them, they should be sautekh, or nihilakh. Use gloom prisms on your spyders to be able to deny the witch.
p5freak wrote: 3 wraith arent enough. You will probably lose 1 or 2 until they get into CC. Once the unit is killed you cant reanimate them. Novokh wraith are really good in melee. More wraith are harder to wipe out, and you can roll more reanimation dice. Sentry pylons with heat cannons arent competitive. They are expensive and die pretty easy. If one gets destroyed your spyder can do nothing. You should add a teleportation matrix to protect them turn 1, in case you dont get first turn. Novokh isnt a good dynasty for them, they should be sautekh, or nihilakh. Use gloom prisms on your spyders to be able to deny the witch.
Yeah, what he said, DDAs are probably better bang for the buck, and more versatile. If you own them. 3 DDAs should have the same DMG output. Might afford you those extra wraiths too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
p5freak wrote: Its meant to be a titanic unit like knights, so its probably gonna be the same points range, around 400-500 pts., i guess. It has two different main guns, which are interchangeable without magnets. Here are more pics.
Did he say anything what those weapons would be like?
The plan is to split the list into thirds, 2 Sentry Pylons with a repair Spyder in the middle, with warriors in from and Scarabs screening them, so mirror this on either side of the board, and use the D Lord, big Scarab squad and Wraiths as a fast ball up the middle.
Giving your Destroyers Lord that WL trait just for some Scarabs and a unit of 3 Wraiths is a waste, you'd be better off giving the Lord the 6" Fearless bubble, he's less likely to die against anything other than snipers as well, so that's another plus. Giving the Blood Scythe to a Lord is a waste, he's hitting on 3s and dies to a stiff breeze. Planning on splitting your forces is planning to be outmanoeuvred, you want your opponent to go through all your chaff before getting to the juicy bits of your army instead of only having to go through half. Create two layers of chaff instead of one on each side of the board.
Your list is not competetive at all for several reasons, that's not a problem if that is the intention, I love playing fun lists, but your list is terrible for any level of competetiveness other than super casual. One thing you don't have to worry about is small units of Wraiths, you're not going to give them Reanimation or attack twice with your list anyways, making them bigger just makes them bigger targets for Stratagems and psychic powers, the only reason to take big squads is if you're bringing a Cryptek and plan on reviving them, if you have enough CP to burn to make them attack twice or if you want more than 9 Wraiths in your list.
You don't have any OP units and you have several bad units. Spyders of any kind are bad, taking more than one is terrible. Sentry Pylons are meh at best and they're bad when in a Novokh Detachment, you did pick the right weapon at least. Warriors are bad if they're not in a Sautekh Batallion or Mephrit Batallion, or in a Novokh Batallion backed by Anrakyr.
Easiest way to improve your list is to get rid of the Warriors, they're not doing anything for your list. Next is cutting out a Spyder from your list and making the Sentry Pylons into a Dynasty that's more worthwhile.
A Sautekh Spearhead with your D-Lord with Hyperlogical Strategist WL-trait and a Relic, however many Sentry Pylons (with heat cannons and the Deep Strike wargear) you feel like and a single Spyder with a fab claw.
A Novokh Outrider with a Cryptek with a Canoptek Cloak and depending on terrain and opponent the Veil of Darkness Relic (if there's a spot far back where your Destroyers can hide against an opponent with fewer drops than you, a unit of 6 Wraiths, a unit of 6 Destroyers, 3 units of Scarabs, as few 3x3 and as many as 3x7.
You could also do a Sautekh Spearhead with your D-Lord with Hyperlogical Strategist WL-trait and a Relic and a Spyder with a fab claw and however many Sentry Pylons you feel like and a Novokh Batallion with a Cryptek of some kind, Lord, 3x10 Warriors and as many Scarabs and Wraiths you can fit.
Lastly you could get Sautekh Spearhead with your D-Lord with Hyperlogical Strategist WL-trait and a Relic and a Spyder with a fab claw and however many Sentry Pylons you feel like and a Novokh Batallion with Anrakyr, a Cryptek, a Lord and a Ghost Ark and then either 10 Tesla Immortals or 20 more Warriors for a Battalion.
None of these lists are tournament competetive, if anyone tells you they are you have my permission to kick out a couple of their teeth while educating them (teeth are for teaching fees).
Spoiler:
I forfeited a game against a grog who claimed I was a munchkin because I was spamming Destroyers in a casual game because I brough two units of 1 Heavy Destroyer to bring out from one of the two Night Scythes I was bringing (in my apparently competetive list), one unit of 3 Heavy Destroyers and then finally a single unit of 6 regular Destroyers. My opponent was bringing two Land Raiders, but I don't think any list with three Necron flyers could be called competetive just because I'm bringing a single squad of 6 Destroyers, at least not if you're playing BA and you're using a smash captain and Mephiston and that doesn't make your list competetive. I always ask after every game I play if there was anything I could do to make our games in the future more fun, but if you're going to accuse me of being a munchkin because you're ill informed and rude then I guess I don't want you to have fun either. If you think your opponent is bringing a too competetive list maybe talk with them after the game, or before the game, but don't bring it up in the game.
Won a 1500 pt game with a Nihilakh list featuring 20 Flayed Ones against a CSM Iron Warriors list with a Land Raider. My opponent split his forces and I focussed down one half of his forces while his heavy weapons were advancing towards me, unable to fire. Flayed Ones failed their charge and took some heavy casualties, but thankfully survived. Things slowed down and after my opponent lost half his army without doing any real damage he surrendered.
Lost a 1000 pt intro game with a Novokh Lychguard spam list with four characters and two res-orbs against a Nid list with 40 Genestealers. One unit of 20 Genestealers destroyed 500 pts worth of Lychguard in a single turn, I never got the chance to use my res orbs and I was wiped out turn 3. My opponent had a lot of fun, but thinking back I'm not sure if the list was great for introductory game, it's weak but it also has a chance of never suffering a single loss, an MSU list with both shooting and melee would probably be the safest bet for making a good introductory game. I think I would have had a chance if I didn't help my opponent pilot his force, but I think he learned a lot, he was definitely surprised when what he thought was a what was going to be a tough fight basically ended turn 2. I also learned I need to fear Genestealers more, I'm not sure why they did so little damage in my previous games against them, perhabs it's more important to soften them up with shooting than I thought. One thing I definitely should have done is make it so my opponent could not charge both my units of Lychguard turn 2, because if they were further apart the second unit would not have been destroyed by the Nid fight twice Stratagem or if I had perhabs mixed them inbetween eachother the second unit could have made a counter-attack instead of just being obliterated.
The plan is to split the list into thirds, 2 Sentry Pylons with a repair Spyder in the middle, with warriors in from and Scarabs screening them, so mirror this on either side of the board, and use the D Lord, big Scarab squad and Wraiths as a fast ball up the middle.
Giving your Destroyers Lord that WL trait just for some Scarabs and a unit of 3 Wraiths is a waste, you'd be better off giving the Lord the 6" Fearless bubble, he's less likely to die against anything other than snipers as well, so that's another plus. Giving the Blood Scythe to a Lord is a waste, he's hitting on 3s and dies to a stiff breeze. Planning on splitting your forces is planning to be outmanoeuvred, you want your opponent to go through all your chaff before getting to the juicy bits of your army instead of only having to go through half. Create two layers of chaff instead of one on each side of the board.
Your list is not competetive at all for several reasons, that's not a problem if that is the intention, I love playing fun lists, but your list is terrible for any level of competetiveness other than super casual. One thing you don't have to worry about is small units of Wraiths, you're not going to give them Reanimation or attack twice with your list anyways, making them bigger just makes them bigger targets for Stratagems and psychic powers, the only reason to take big squads is if you're bringing a Cryptek and plan on reviving them, if you have enough CP to burn to make them attack twice or if you want more than 9 Wraiths in your list.
You don't have any OP units and you have several bad units. Spyders of any kind are bad, taking more than one is terrible. Sentry Pylons are meh at best and they're bad when in a Novokh Detachment, you did pick the right weapon at least. Warriors are bad if they're not in a Sautekh Batallion or Mephrit Batallion, or in a Novokh Batallion backed by Anrakyr.
Easiest way to improve your list is to get rid of the Warriors, they're not doing anything for your list. Next is cutting out a Spyder from your list and making the Sentry Pylons into a Dynasty that's more worthwhile.
A Sautekh Spearhead with your D-Lord with Hyperlogical Strategist WL-trait and a Relic, however many Sentry Pylons (with heat cannons and the Deep Strike wargear) you feel like and a single Spyder with a fab claw.
A Novokh Outrider with a Cryptek with a Canoptek Cloak and depending on terrain and opponent the Veil of Darkness Relic (if there's a spot far back where your Destroyers can hide against an opponent with fewer drops than you, a unit of 6 Wraiths, a unit of 6 Destroyers, 3 units of Scarabs, as few 3x3 and as many as 3x7.
You could also do a Sautekh Spearhead with your D-Lord with Hyperlogical Strategist WL-trait and a Relic and a Spyder with a fab claw and however many Sentry Pylons you feel like and a Novokh Batallion with a Cryptek of some kind, Lord, 3x10 Warriors and as many Scarabs and Wraiths you can fit.
Lastly you could get Sautekh Spearhead with your D-Lord with Hyperlogical Strategist WL-trait and a Relic and a Spyder with a fab claw and however many Sentry Pylons you feel like and a Novokh Batallion with Anrakyr, a Cryptek, a Lord and a Ghost Ark and then either 10 Tesla Immortals or 20 more Warriors for a Battalion.
None of these lists are tournament competetive, if anyone tells you they are you have my permission to kick out a couple of their teeth while educating them (teeth are for teaching fees).
Spoiler:
I forfeited a game against a grog who claimed I was a munchkin because I was spamming Destroyers in a casual game because I brough two units of 1 Heavy Destroyer to bring out from one of the two Night Scythes I was bringing (in my apparently competetive list), one unit of 3 Heavy Destroyers and then finally a single unit of 6 regular Destroyers. My opponent was bringing two Land Raiders, but I don't think any list with three Necron flyers could be called competetive just because I'm bringing a single squad of 6 Destroyers, at least not if you're playing BA and you're using a smash captain and Mephiston and that doesn't make your list competetive. I always ask after every game I play if there was anything I could do to make our games in the future more fun, but if you're going to accuse me of being a munchkin because you're ill informed and rude then I guess I don't want you to have fun either. If you think your opponent is bringing a too competetive list maybe talk with them after the game, or before the game, but don't bring it up in the game.
Won a 1500 pt game with a Nihilakh list featuring 20 Flayed Ones against a CSM Iron Warriors list with a Land Raider. My opponent split his forces and I focussed down one half of his forces while his heavy weapons were advancing towards me, unable to fire. Flayed Ones failed their charge and took some heavy casualties, but thankfully survived. Things slowed down and after my opponent lost half his army without doing any real damage he surrendered.
Lost a 1000 pt intro game with a Novokh Lychguard spam list with four characters and two res-orbs against a Nid list with 40 Genestealers. One unit of 20 Genestealers destroyed 500 pts worth of Lychguard in a single turn, I never got the chance to use my res orbs and I was wiped out turn 3. My opponent had a lot of fun, but thinking back I'm not sure if the list was great for introductory game, it's weak but it also has a chance of never suffering a single loss, an MSU list with both shooting and melee would probably be the safest bet for making a good introductory game. I think I would have had a chance if I didn't help my opponent pilot his force, but I think he learned a lot, he was definitely surprised when what he thought was a what was going to be a tough fight basically ended turn 2. I also learned I need to fear Genestealers more, I'm not sure why they did so little damage in my previous games against them, perhabs it's more important to soften them up with shooting than I thought. One thing I definitely should have done is make it so my opponent could not charge both my units of Lychguard turn 2, because if they were further apart the second unit would not have been destroyed by the Nid fight twice Stratagem or if I had perhabs mixed them inbetween eachother the second unit could have made a counter-attack instead of just being obliterated.
While I want to be competitive, I also can't afford anything new, so I have to work with what I have:
Spoiler:
models I have:
2x Destroyer Lords.
1x lord, with orb
1x cryptek on foot, kitbashed
54x Warriors
34x Scarabs
1x Destroyer
6x Wraiths, old metal, so basic.
2x Spyders, one with a Beamer, the other all CC.
6x Sentry Pylons with Heat Cannon.
Lychguard with Shield works quite well against Incubi as i found out yesterday
But another question occurred is there anything in World we can do against talos engines (T6 3+/4++)? No weapon seems to deal enough dmg to take atleast 2 out.
Played against 9 of them so i am quite traumatized
Pretty sure the answer to pain engines is the same answer we use for every high toughness multiple wound model, destroyers. Not quite as much AP to waste as the doomsday ark and with less damage per shot you're less likely to overkill a model by a large amount so you have a better shot at clearing out the unit.
Manous wrote: well Taloi have a 4++ inv and 7T sooooo.... What to do?
Shoot them? Destroyers are pretty good against them due to their RoF and multiple damage shots. It takes at least 3 unsaved wounds to kill one. You haven't been trying to use warrior spam against them, have you? Because those are really inefficient against high-T multiwound models.
Wait, are they really that cheap? That's...dumb. Really dumb. Like, an annihilation barge is only one more wound, has weaker armor and an unreliable defensive rule, and its more expensive than 100.
How are they 4+ invul? Apparently they are supposed to have 5+ invuls?
Drukhari are gonna get the nerf bat come Chapter Approved, the whole codex is pretty criminally underpriced for how effective it is. Calling it her first.
On another note, I had an excellent game this weekend vs my AdMech Buddy.
I ran.
Spoiler:
Mephrit Battalion
Cryptek w/ Chrono, SoL
Overlord with WS, Immortal Pride Warlord Trait
x10 Immortals with Tesla
x10 Immortals with Tesla
x20 Warriors
x6 Tomb Blades w/ Shield Veins
x3 Heavy Destroyers ******
Nephrek Outrider
Destroyer Lord with VoD, SoL
x8 Scarab Swarms
x6 Wraiths
x6 Destroyers (In Deep Strike)
9CP
Vs
Spoiler:
Forge World Stygies Battalion
Tech Priest Enginseer
Tech Priest Enginseer
x2 Dunecrawlers, x1 with Icarus, x1 with Neutron Laser
x4 Kastellan Robots, w/ Phosphor Blasters
13cp
Played a Malestrom mission, and I won 9-3 vs a Cawl Robot Castle and Stygies infiltrating detatchment.
It turns out...after the game, I realized I never took the Heavy Destroyers out of the box...because I was so eager to get a game in after a break because my wife and I just had our first child...so technically...it was 1800 points vs 2k admech...not too shabby!
Manous wrote: well Taloi have a 4++ inv and 7T sooooo.... What to do?
Shoot them? Destroyers are pretty good against them due to their RoF and multiple damage shots. It takes at least 3 unsaved wounds to kill one.
Destroyers are great, and a unit of them will shoot a Talos off the board, but the destroyers will be focussed down the very next round, particularly against DEldar.
iGuy91 wrote: Drukhari are gonna get the nerf bat come Chapter Approved, the whole codex is pretty criminally underpriced for how effective it is. Calling it her first.
On another note, I had an excellent game this weekend vs my AdMech Buddy.
I ran.
Spoiler:
Mephrit Battalion
Cryptek w/ Chrono, SoL
Overlord with WS, Immortal Pride Warlord Trait
x10 Immortals with Tesla
x10 Immortals with Tesla
x20 Warriors
x6 Tomb Blades w/ Shield Veins
x3 Heavy Destroyers ******
Nephrek Outrider
Destroyer Lord with VoD, SoL
x8 Scarab Swarms
x6 Wraiths
x6 Destroyers (In Deep Strike)
9CP
Vs
Spoiler:
Forge World Stygies Battalion
Tech Priest Enginseer
Tech Priest Enginseer
x2 Dunecrawlers, x1 with Icarus, x1 with Neutron Laser
x4 Kastellan Robots, w/ Phosphor Blasters
13cp
Played a Malestrom mission, and I won 9-3 vs a Cawl Robot Castle and Stygies infiltrating detatchment.
It turns out...after the game, I realized I never took the Heavy Destroyers out of the box...because I was so eager to get a game in after a break because my wife and I just had our first child...so technically...it was 1800 points vs 2k admech...not too shabby!
Congrats!!
(and not about the game although that seems great too)
I can inform you from hard earned experience that you will come to cherish those 2 hours 13 minutes you have left every night. And you will come to cherish a wife/partner who lets you still pursue your hobby
Hey all,
Had some recent success with Night Scythes, looking to make a list to take to an event using them. Also, using three A. Barges. I am aware that they are far from optimal choices. Currently the list is a battalion and air wing detachment with a 6 man destroyer squad. But with tesla immortals and all the Tesla Destructors, how do I make the most of them? More shots? Adding to hit?
With a extremely tesla heavy list, Mephrit for the AP bump, and Talent? Or, is it better to run Sautek for MD and the CP trait?
I would say mephrit. Night scythes packs more punch and can drop in 20 warriors that gets to shoot 40 shots S4 -2. Perhaps veiled up another 20 with a cryptek or a lord
Automatically Appended Next Post: Note beware of how or of common -1 to hit is in your meta, with all that Tesla
Why do you want 20 warriors only 12" away from the enemy ? Thats easy charge range for your opponent, and your shooting is shut down when you fallback. Warriors suck in melee, without buffs.
p5freak wrote: Why do you want 20 warriors only 12" away from the enemy ? Thats easy charge range for your opponent, and your shooting is shut down when you fallback. Warriors suck in melee, without buffs.
Definitely, you need to play around this. Drop the scythe in front of them, fly in tomb blades perhaps. Have wraiths and scarabs push nearby to pose more iminent threaths.
Barely any necron unit, except wraiths, can hold its own in isolation.
However that shooting phasr and the following overwatch has a good chance, even in isolation, to make it's points back
So, weird thing I noticed about the Eternity Gate -
It says I can set up several necron infantry units when I set up the monolith. I'm assuming that means when it arrives from space, I can place as many units as I want from reserve around it, right?
So...what's the point of enhanced invasion beams on monoliths then? I mean, there isn't really a point to it, as by the time it arrives you've probably deployed everything from it anyway.
It means you can have as many units in deep strike reserve (ergo, being transported by the Monolith) as you like. You can only use it to unload a "single friendly <DYNASTY> unit" per turn because the Eternity Gate says so.
Basically the advantage is that a Monolith can drop one unit of lychguard on turn two then another unit on turn three, as opposed to say a land raider which dumps its terminators and then you have an empty land raider.
Arachnofiend wrote: It means you can have as many units in deep strike reserve (ergo, being transported by the Monolith) as you like. You can only use it to unload a "single friendly <DYNASTY> unit" per turn because the Eternity Gate says so.
Basically the advantage is that a Monolith can drop one unit of lychguard on turn two then another unit on turn three, as opposed to say a land raider which dumps its terminators and then you have an empty land raider.
Ah hell, I misread it. I thought you could deploy units from it when it arrives. Well, that makes the monolith a hell lot more unappealing.
That means you have to effectively wait until turn 3 before deploying units from it, and you can't even move. That's not great.
Yeah, the monolith got seriously caught in the cross fire by the deep strike changes. On the bright side the last time this happened with the Thousand Sons/Grey Knights smite they uh, got very well compensated. Just pester GW about it and hope when the deep strike changes are finalized they're coupled with a fix for the Monolith; I think making it work similar to a drop pod where you can deploy from it immediately upon dropping down would be the best fix, though of course the Monolith would still be bad for all the reasons the Monolith was bad prior to the last FAQ.
Add Scarabs to the Novokh Outrider and Sentry Pylons with Deep Strike to the Sautekh batallion until you reach your desired pts value.
Probably the most competitive list you can field may not be not casual, but not competitive either. Just ask for casual games and bring your original list.
Manous wrote: They have 3 Coven Traits to choose from.
The oviously best one is the +1 so inv saves.
I guess i just won't play against Drukhari if they have talos or chronos in their list.
I'm not sure how Talos are much better than Carnifexes backed by -1 to hit? Take 9 Carnifexes backed by two or three Malanthropes, rest of your army in DS reserve, 3 Flying Hive Tyrants and then a Mawloc or three, with DE you can still shoot the rest of their army. I'd be far more afraid of a DE list featuring all shooting because that'll shoot you off the board before you can blink, with the Talos it'll at least take some time before you get wrecked. Or can you DS the Talos? Maybe try to focus the less durable parts of your opponent's list, deal with the Talos once you've gotten rid of most of the other stuff. It seems like you've fallen for the ole' distraction carnifex tactic. The models look scarier than they actually are, so you spend all your firepower killing units that are very durable but don't pose as much of a threat as the rest of your opponent's list.
Maybe take a Tesseract Vault? I think it'll take a long time for Talos to get through that. C'tan Shards in general would probably be good against Talos spam.
First game I lost against a fluffy Saim-Hann list, I did an impressive alpha strike T1 and killed 600 pts worth of models, my opponent did it right back with his remaining 1400 pts of his army and the game ended with him tabling me with two Warlocks on bikes left. I think I made some mistakes with targeting and then I forgot to discard objectives for a couple of turns so I had to give up the objective game and play for a tabling which I barely failed. I was definitely too liberal with my CP because I'm used to having 9-15 and this game I think I had 8.
Second game I lost against a Thousand Sons list with Magnus, a Greater Daemon of Tzeentch, a bunch of characters and some Brimstones as screens. I just didn't have the firepower to take out even a single Greater Daemon of Tzeentch turn 1 because of 2+ invuln (3+ with +1 to the rolls... ) and turn two I failed to kill Magnus in a single turn as well even though he only had a 4+ invulnerable save. Turn 4 I used 6 Heavy Destroyers, the abyssal staff, 3 Destroyers, 2 Doomsday Arks (not moving and rapid-firing their small guns) to deal 4 wounds to Magnus with +1 to hit from the Sautekh Stratagem. My opponent was unlucky with his psychic rolls as well, but that just seems like a bit much.
The list seems very strong, I vehemently disagree that Necrons don't need lots of CP so I'll probably move back to a Batallion, but the mobility and damage output of a list like this is insane (when your opponent isn't rolling hot on his invulns).
Yeah, as scarabs are our best screening unit you will need an outrider to fit some in if you want to field heavy hitters like wraiths and destroyers.
Of course, that does mean 3 HQ units.
I see a lot of people mixing dynasties, but I'm not a fan, as necron character buffs only affect units from their own dynasty. Which means you have to keep track of which unit belongs to who. Which means having to paint models different colors to keep track of the damned things, which I hate doing.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Yeah, as scarabs are our best screening unit you will need an outrider to fit some in if you want to field heavy hitters like wraiths and destroyers.
Of course, that does mean 3 HQ units.
I see a lot of people mixing dynasties, but I'm not a fan, as necron character buffs only affect units from their own dynasty. Which means you have to keep track of which unit belongs to who. Which means having to paint models different colors to keep track of the damned things, which I hate doing.
True, but a squad of 7-8 scarab bases provide a ton of ablative wounds, and screens off a lot of ground for sure.
I generally run x6 wraiths, x6 destroyers, and scarabs to fill it out. Sometimes I will sub the wraiths for tomb blades.
Do you guys think we'll see any point reductions in next month's FAQ? Games Workshop must have noticed the general consensus is Necrons are overpriced by now. It was interesting to see that Flayed Ones are 10 points in Kill Team, I don't know how relevant that is
Yeah, basically, I think Destroyers are balanced. They are only really "powerful" because of Extermination Protocols.
You can't really spam them, they are too expensive for that
But regardless, I'd love a fix to our transports, monolith drops to 300 points, 1 point drop for immortals. 2 point drop for warriors.
That...and AP-1 for tesla destructors, but I digress.
I'd like to see them move scarabs to troops.
I know they've always been in fast attack, even in 3rd ed, but it never made sense to me.
They are supposed to be the most numerous part of a necron force, and I don't think being locked to fast attack does them justice.
Aren't rippers troops? If so, why are rippers troops and not scarabs, when they are basically the same thing.
I think a Necron brigade might still be tricky, mainly because of the Elites tax. It'll be a matter of whether or not that minimum of 255pts spent on 15 useless Flayed Ones is worth the extra 2-3 CP over going for a Battalion + Outrider and/or Spearhead.
There's also the matter of having to cover your anti-horde base now you've no Troop tesla, and are paying the equivalent of 7-and-a-third Shieldvaned Tomb Blades that could fill that role in Flayed Ones that might sit on backfield objectives and generally try and stay out of trouble.
iGuy91 wrote: Yeah, basically, I think Destroyers are balanced. They are only really "powerful" because of Extermination Protocols.
You can't really spam them, they are too expensive for that
But regardless, I'd love a fix to our transports, monolith drops to 300 points, 1 point drop for immortals. 2 point drop for warriors.
That...and AP-1 for tesla destructors, but I digress.
Tesla shouldn't have any AP, but I think most people would be cool for D2 on them.
iGuy91 wrote: Yeah, basically, I think Destroyers are balanced. They are only really "powerful" because of Extermination Protocols.
You can't really spam them, they are too expensive for that
But regardless, I'd love a fix to our transports, monolith drops to 300 points, 1 point drop for immortals. 2 point drop for warriors.
That...and AP-1 for tesla destructors, but I digress.
Tesla shouldn't have any AP, but I think most people would be cool for D2 on them.
For the largest iteration of the tesla weapon line, it feels like trying to club your enemy to death with a slice of New York Pizza.
The gun seriously needs to be STR 7, AP-1, 2 damage flat, to even be worth consideration. It is the absolute worst autocannon variant/equivalent in the game, even with tesla occasionally spotting you another hit, assuming you are lucky enough to not be shooting at a -1, -2, or -3 to hit.
iGuy91 wrote: Yeah, basically, I think Destroyers are balanced. They are only really "powerful" because of Extermination Protocols.
You can't really spam them, they are too expensive for that
But regardless, I'd love a fix to our transports, monolith drops to 300 points, 1 point drop for immortals. 2 point drop for warriors.
That...and AP-1 for tesla destructors, but I digress.
Tesla shouldn't have any AP, but I think most people would be cool for D2 on them.
iGuy91 wrote: Yeah, basically, I think Destroyers are balanced. They are only really "powerful" because of Extermination Protocols.
You can't really spam them, they are too expensive for that
But regardless, I'd love a fix to our transports, monolith drops to 300 points, 1 point drop for immortals. 2 point drop for warriors.
That...and AP-1 for tesla destructors, but I digress.
Tesla shouldn't have any AP, but I think most people would be cool for D2 on them.
For the largest iteration of the tesla weapon line, it feels like trying to club your enemy to death with a slice of New York Pizza.
The gun seriously needs to be STR 7, AP-1, 2 damage flat, to even be worth consideration. It is the absolute worst autocannon variant/equivalent in the game, even with tesla occasionally spotting you another hit, assuming you are lucky enough to not be shooting at a -1, -2, or -3 to hit.
One could always wish for Tesla procing on a natural 6, or better if modified. -1 would then not cancel Tesla, bit at least cancel MWBD bonus
iGuy91 wrote: Yeah, basically, I think Destroyers are balanced. They are only really "powerful" because of Extermination Protocols.
You can't really spam them, they are too expensive for that
Too bad reason does mean much when it comes to points adjustments so far.
Avatar 720 wrote: I'm sure a good few people would jump at the chance to get a Necron battalion detachment that only costs 117pts in troops.
I considered this, and that could probably be avoided with some sort of rule like "drones - cannot gain objective secured or counts towards minimal troops requirements for battle forged lists." or something like that. Then again, I think IG can make battalions like that as well. Its 4 points a guardsmen, right? So they can make a battalion with 120 pts of troops no problem. All armies should have that option, really.
Necrons having cheap battalions wouldn't break things as hard as Guard's cheap battalions because Necrons don't have the ability to cherry pick the best stratagems from three different codexes in a single army.
Arachnofiend wrote: Necrons having cheap battalions wouldn't break things as hard as Guard's cheap battalions because Necrons don't have the ability to cherry pick the best stratagems from three different codexes in a single army.
And our HQs are still pricey.
Automatically Appended Next Post: although on second thought a difference of a couple of 10s of points is perhaps not the kind of breakage were talking about
Scarabs would probably be nerfed (again) if they were made troops which would leave us with yet another below par unit. I'd rather keep them as FA and be usable. I wouldn't give Tesla Destructors an AP, but making them Assault 6 and D2 would go a long way to helping.
iGuy91 wrote: Yeah, basically, I think Destroyers are balanced. They are only really "powerful" because of Extermination Protocols.
You can't really spam them, they are too expensive for that
But regardless, I'd love a fix to our transports, monolith drops to 300 points, 1 point drop for immortals. 2 point drop for warriors.
That...and AP-1 for tesla destructors, but I digress.
Tesla shouldn't have any AP, but I think most people would be cool for D2 on them.
For the largest iteration of the tesla weapon line, it feels like trying to club your enemy to death with a slice of New York Pizza.
The gun seriously needs to be STR 7, AP-1, 2 damage flat, to even be worth consideration. It is the absolute worst autocannon variant/equivalent in the game, even with tesla occasionally spotting you another hit, assuming you are lucky enough to not be shooting at a -1, -2, or -3 to hit.
It isn't the worst equivalent. The issue is the Barge as a platform. 8 shots with D2 wouldn't be too bad, but the Barge isn't doing any favors.
So day 1 of Siegeworld is over, and I'm the only player representing for Necrons. Sitting at 2-1 and 24/60, mostly due to my first match was an absolutely brutal face stomping by Thousand Sons piloted by an exceptional player. Played DA in my second match and did quite well. Third match was a close match vs Alpha Legion in which I only won by 2 points.
I'm running Overlords, Scarabs, Tesla Immortals, Destroyers, and DDAs. Nephrekh main detachment with Sautekh spearhead. We'll see what day 2 brings.
I'd like to see Tesla destructors go to stretch 8 - would mean they do better to wound vs MEQ, and makes them stand out against similar weapons in other armies. It wouldn't be enough on it's own to justify the current points, but damage 2 as well might be too much....
Some units will get point drops, some will see a point increase (destroyers, my guess is about 60), and EP will probably be 2CP, because its very strong. And thats gonna be it. Dont expect a major overhaul.
p5freak wrote: Some units will get point drops, some will see a point increase (destroyers, my guess is about 60), and EP will probably be 2CP, because its very strong. And thats gonna be it. Dont expect a major overhaul.
They will either increase the Destroyers or Increase EP to 2CPs. No way would they do both. EP is what's makes Destroyers so good. Almost like a 1 trick pony. Increasin both of them would be a stupid move.
Also if they increase the Destroyers model than Heavy Ds will go up as well. Which would make them pretty bad. Only thing that they could upgrade is the Gauss Cannons pt cost.
p5freak wrote: Some units will get point drops, some will see a point increase (destroyers, my guess is about 60), and EP will probably be 2CP, because its very strong. And thats gonna be it. Dont expect a major overhaul.
They will either increase the Destroyers or Increase EP to 2CPs. No way would they do both. EP is what's makes Destroyers so good. Almost like a 1 trick pony. Increasin both of them would be a stupid move.
Also if they increase the Destroyers model than Heavy Ds will go up as well. Which would make them pretty bad. Only thing that they could upgrade is the Gauss Cannons pt cost.
Look into what happens to Space Marine you will know GW did tons of stupid moves in this edition, like increase the points for Guilliman Razorback, Stormraven, Assault Cannon and Hurricane Bolter. So, increase the points of both Destroyer and their stratagem is not something unlikely.
Anyway, I think increase the points for both Destroyer base cost and cost for their weapons are more likely than increase the cost of the stratagem. A lot of stratagem that has been screamed "oh that is tooooo OooPpp" had never been changed in their
CP costs.
EP's a little strange to me, there are some instances where it might well be worth 2CP, but others where I'd never pay 2CP for it, for instance if I'm running a Destroyer Lord. Targeting anything T5 or lower--maybe even T6--without any modifiers to being hit with EP only means I'm re-rolling 2s to Hit and Wound, maybe even 3s to Wound as well; I'm not convinced that would ever be worth 2CP for a single unit.
But if there's no Destroyer Lord, and especially if you're targeting high-toughness, -hit modifier models, it becomes a lot better. Worth 2CP? Maybe; it still is only the one unit it affects, after all, but the output would be strengthened.
For me, it's a great example of a stratagem worth about 1.5CP; 1CP is sometimes too cheap, 2CP is sometimes too much, which makes it a bugger to try and balance either way. Hitting the effectiveness/price of the GC and leaving EP alone would probably be the preferred option for me.
"I won't elaborate on this further."
Just know that I have no reason to lie.
Until CA though, I'm probably gonna be shelving Necrons. Unless the big FAQ will do stuffs.
Right
Suit yourself. You clearly don't know what even slight leaks can cause if people find that out.
Anyway, pretty much every top ITC player has said that Necrons are unplayble in the Knight meta. Nanavati said he probably couldn't win a GT with Necrons, yet he could with an army that has no guns; Jessica Bowman who has played Necrons forever and often topped the Best in Faction chart can manage a 3:3 at best, only ONE non 3 vault necron list in the ENTIRE ETC. Those points drops can't come soon enough :<
Which sucks for me as I have:
1. AdMech (aka the straight up worse Astra Militarum)
2. Daemons (who got killed by the deepstrike beta rule. You basically have to start 1 turn down if you're playing mono daemons. However this is the only army that I can play with as I can just do Nurgle + 3 TS daemon princes)
3. Orks (Index, so can't really compete that well anymore)
4. Necrons (which turned out to be the worst of the 4... somehow??? Well if you're not spamming the soon to be nerfed vaults ofc)
Why oh why do I have to hate everything about eldar... It'd be so much easier if I just loved and collected them.
Oh, also the big FAQ will have changes people have been asking for. Whatever that is. God I hope it's death to allies
rvd1ofakind wrote: Necrons will get an almost across the board drop in points in CA. So that's good.
Spoiler:
This is 100% confirmed and I won't elaborate on this further.
Source? That's interesting to hear.
"I won't elaborate on this further."
Just know that I have no reason to lie.
Sure you do, you're a random person on the internet, you could be lying for gaks & giggles, for e-peen, to try and create an idea you know what you're talking about when you don't--though bear in mind I'm not accusing you of any of this. It's not like there's a dearth of reasons people lie on the internet; hell, people lying on the internet is one of the most well-known memes around.
Simply put, you can't just walk in, state something as fact with a vague 'you'll just have to trust me'-type tagline, and not expect people to be immediately suspicious.
I'm not that much of a random person on the internet. I am quite active on these and other 40k boards(heck, I get called out in basically every single FLG stream for better or worse reasons :p). I have created a giant mathammer spreadsheet for the 4 armies I own. I have some very strong opinions that I can always back up by data, unlike most 40k players who just whine for the sake of whining("waaaah GW hate my army, no they probably hate ME, if I start collecting another army, they'll make it worse". I have not seen stuff like this in any other community I've been a part of. 40k has one of the worst "idiot:normal person" balance). I don't have time for trolling. What's the point?
It's not like what I'm saying is something unexpected.
Top players say necrons suck. Top players also work as testers. ====== Testers say necrons suck = buffs. I know. Shocking.
TBH, it's not like getting a lukewarm response to "Here's a 100% definitely completely accurate fact I outright refuse to back up" is something unexpected, either, especially coming from someone who, despite being active on various boards, has no more apparent credibility in the rumour department as any other randomer.
You can keep acting like people are being unreasonable, or you can accept that you've got one of the smallest foundations for these claims it's possible to have, and that until there's more proof besides "trust me, I make spreadsheets", people are naturally going to heavily doubt the entire thing.
Top players say necrons suck. Top players also work as testers. ====== Testers say necrons suck = buffs
Doesn't make you realise that I'm not making it up - you're one of those people who cry "GW hates necrons" because that'd be the only reason why they wouldn't buff necrons.
Top players say necrons suck. Top players also work as testers. ====== Testers say necrons suck = buffs
Doesn't make you realise that I'm not making it up - you're one of those people who cry "GW hates necrons" because that'd be the only reason why they wouldn't buff necrons.
So what you're saying is that you don't actually have any proof, and you're just extrapolating from an assumed progression of logic? And that people who doubt you are just whining?
Yes. This makes me so much more inclined to believe you. I can't believe I've been so blind.
I can't say names of my sources because that is breaking NDA and potentially life ruining? Clearly you do not realise that. Done posting about this. Next time, I'll keep the info to myself.
Points reductions will be very welcome, but there are still rules issues that need straightening out. Well see if anything shows up or whether we'll have to wait for Chapter Approved.
I don't think any reasonable points reductions will actually help Necrons. A lot of our issues are more fundamental than just numbers. Like, all the points drops in the world won't change the fact that the Monolith doesn't function as a transport until turn three.
Oh I'm sure the deepstrike beta rule will get more exceptions like the psychic beta rule did (this is just me speculating, I don't know about this one).
By the way, no one here said anything about the new ITC missions. so here you go:
Pros:
you can take max dude squads because reaper now is just "kill 80 models".
Gangbusters is gone. Your destroyer or wraith squad won't give away 3 VP Necrons are one of the few armies that can potentially avoid Butcher.
Cons:
Pretty much everyone will choose marked for death against you.
It is really hard to force a non-mobile army into taking objectives that require mobility. This is the big one, IMO. Before the only secondaries that scored more than 2 VP against me were: behind enemy lines, recon and old school. That was also the strategy behind the few GT wins that necrons have. Now that this is not really possible anymore (I think), Necrons will become even worse (though the new missions are better overall IMO).
rvd1ofakind wrote: Oh I'm sure the deepstrike beta rule will get more exceptions like the psychic beta rule did (this is just me speculating, I don't know about this one).
By the way, no one here said anything about the new ITC missions. so here you go:
Pros:
you can take max dude squads because reaper now is just "kill 80 models".
Gangbusters is gone. Your destroyer or wraith squad won't give away 3 VP Necrons are one of the few armies that can potentially avoid Butcher.
Cons:
Pretty much everyone will choose marked for death against you.
It is really hard to force a non-mobile army into taking objectives that require mobility. This is the big one, IMO. Before the only secondaries that scored more than 2 VP against me were: behind enemy lines, recon and old school. That was also the strategy behind the few GT wins that necrons have. Now that this is not really possible anymore (I think), Necrons will become even worse (though the new missions are better overall IMO).
Fair point on the pros and cons. Perhaps some list adjustments are in order to aid with scoring to adapt. Tomb Blades are a very solid unit, and scarabs are cheap objective holders,
Arachnofiend wrote: I don't think any reasonable points reductions will actually help Necrons. A lot of our issues are more fundamental than just numbers. Like, all the points drops in the world won't change the fact that the Monolith doesn't function as a transport until turn three.
I mostly agree. There are things that are just frustrating - Monolith's staggeringly inefficient transport ability, or Anrakyr being locked out of any way to actually get him where you need him - but the sheer point cost of trying to run different tactics is an issue, as well. Point reductions would make it a lot easier to build efficient battalions and still run our more specialized units.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Oh and one pretty annoying thing for Reaper: if the models RP and get killed again, they get counted for reaper... AGAIN.
Thats ridiculous. I cant choose not to reanimate. I have to. This can be exploited by the opponent by not killing the entire unit, forcing reanimation rolls, which then can get killed again, counting towards reaper.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Oh and one pretty annoying thing for Reaper: if the models RP and get killed again, they get counted for reaper... AGAIN.
Thats ridiculous. I cant choose not to reanimate. I have to. This can be exploited by the opponent by not killing the entire unit, forcing reanimation rolls, which then can get killed again, counting towards reaper.
C'mon man. Necrons have to be toned down, they were way too out of line :> :> :>
Although it is not THAT big of a deal. Only silver tide lists are really concerned about this one.
Well to be fair they kinda threw us a bone by getting rid of gang busters. You could do the same thing, only a lot easier. It's one reason why I don't take the unkillable destroyer lord. Too easy to give up Kingslayer
Okay so mr. "how many armies you have?" seems to start necrons as well. Already had necrons from forgebane. Had been thinking of selling but instead one person was selling even more necrons for very cheap price...Okay not huge pile but enough I figured I should have ~1000 pts already for 45e extra investment...
Anyway should be having then:
3 HQ model on foot
command barge
20 immortals(not sure on weapons on 10, rest on sprues)
5 lychguard/praetorians
6 wraiths
triach stalker
Suggestions on how to proceed? Destroyers probably obvious choise. Not that it will be fast. ORKS are first. Now to think up colour scheme. Own scheme for a change. I'm leaning toward Sautekh for at least main bulk though could see using 2nd detachment with something else.
I know we suck at 2k because of meta but do we suck at 2k+ e.g. 2500pt, 3000pt etc ?
I'd think so.
Going down, yo perhaps 1500 or 1250, it might be easier as RP might play a role and destroyers might live long enough to kill the lone tank he can afford
The plan is to have the Crypteks castled within the immortals and Lychguard respectively to make best use the bubbles.
The Chronometron Cryptek will use his Veil of Darkness to pop up with the Immortals in a convenient spot and fire away.
The Flying Cryptek can zoom around with the Pretorians.
The Deathmarks deepstrike to either secure an objective or counter enemy deepstrikers/Characters.
The Wraiths wreak havoc in melee or fish for MW with their Beams.
Suggestions and comments are highly appreciated!
Looks speedy and interesting, give it a try!
Someone is bound to pop in and say "Destroyers!", but try it out and see what you like. Wraiths can keep busy the things that destroyers would destroy. Praetorians can keep most other things busy.
I am not a fan of Deathmarks. For grabbing a backfield objective, okay, but don't expect them to be able to kill a character with shooting - their gun's just too wimpy.
Praetorians - I want to like them but they're *so* expensive.
I know we suck at 2k because of meta but do we suck at 2k+ e.g. 2500pt, 3000pt etc ?
I'd think so.
Going down, yo perhaps 1500 or 1250, it might be easier as RP might play a role and destroyers might live long enough to kill the lone tank he can afford
This man is correct. The more points you play, the worse Necrons get.
I'd recommend dropping the Deathmarks for 5x Immortals, then split the other group to upgrade from a Patrol for the CP, personally.
I concur with momerathe on the Praetorians; I much prefer running Lychguard to Praetorians. No shooting, but much deadlier in melee for 2 points less per model, or slightly deadlier in melee and much much harder to kill for 2 points more per model.
Plus, Praetorians don't get any benefits from the Cryptek; note that they don't have <Dynasty>, so double check all your auras and buffs to see which affect them. To my knowledge, the only ones that do are the Triarch Stalker, Imotekh's My Will Be Done (but none of his other abilities), Anrakyr the Traveller and, Illuminor Szeras.
I wasn't aware that Pretorians don't have the <Dynasty> keyword. That's a big drawback, especially considering their high point cost.
@torblind: Yeah, speed was pretty much the theme I was going for, sice Necrons are commonly refered to as slow and sluggish, so I thought I could surprise my opponent this way.
@momerathe: I like the Deathmarks for their unique mobility and their MWs on 6s, but they are a one-trick pony indeed. One unit of 10 (when expanding to 1500 points) in rapid fire range is 3.3 mortal wounds on average plus the normal hits, which should be good enough to get rid of W3/W4 characters after deep striking. which seems okay to me and I really like their aesthetics as well
@Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll:
A second unit of Immortals is definitely next on the bucket list. Lychguard do seem more worthwhile after what you and momerathe said, but I'm worried they'll never get anywhere with that M5.
The problem with using 10 deathmarks to kill a character is that its not cost efficient. You are spending 190 points to kill something that's worth less that. Yes, characters do provide buffs, but that's still a sizable investment being sacrificed.
Then again, no other necron unit can do that, so go ahead I guess.
Don't focus too much on the mw mechanic, they deep strike and provide decent volumes of S4 fire, goes well with Mephrit for small point games, perhaps also a Lord that veiled up with some immortals, suddenly you are wrecking havoc on one flank out of nowhere.
First off, take everything I say with a grain of salt. I've never played above a novice level, and a lot of my advice of how to run things doesn't work above a certain level. Normally I'm aware of that and will try to mention it, but often not.
Lychguard M5 does suck. Shieldguard have the toughness to slog it out on their slow walk up the board without dying, but that's still probably not until turn 2 and most likely not until turn 3 that they start actually doing anything and by that point a game is already won or lost.
Scytheguard on the other hand definitely require either a Night Scythe or the Deceiver or even a Deceiver-Zandrekh-Obyron combo list to really pull off. Nephrekh Scytheguard are also decent, you can also use the Nephrekh 1CP strategem to SUA 9" them.
Night Scythe strategy is pretty simple; turn 1 your Night Scythe flies up to 60" to land where you want to drop your Lychguard. At that point, your enemy will either kill your Night Scythe, or just move everything out of charge range, because beginning of your Turn 2, you Invasion Beams in your Lychguard. If they kill your Night Scythe, use 1CP to use Emergency Invasion Beam get your Lychguard in anyway, or run 2 Night Scythes (they're Hard to Hit, so them killing 2 in Turn 1 is unlikely).
The second fun thing about Night Scythes is that they're not actually Transports, which is why I mention running two. Your Lychguard can come out of whichever one survived/seems like a better position at the beginning of 2nd.
Nephrekh is a pretty easy to understand one; 6" Advances will get you a guaranteed 2nd-Turn charge even with 5" move, and might even do better than the SUA 9" will.
The Deceiver combo is a favourite of mine though I have yet to actually try it in person. In it's simplest form, the Deceiver allows you to set up itself and/or D3 Necron units (any of them that are on the battlefield) after all other setup but before the first turn begins, 12" from any enemy models. The downside, is they can't charge.
There's a way to get around that though. If instead of sending in your Lychguard directly, you send in Nemesor Zandrekh, and he then moves towards the enemy, then you use Vargard Obyron's Ghostwalk Mantle to remove him and the Lychguard, and SUA within 6" of Zahndrekh and more than 1" from enemy models. That's right, only 1". That's a guaranteed charge there. If you can't get that close, Advance Zandrekh as well, because Advancing is also done in the Movement phase. This is a super complicated way to do it, but a unit of 10 Warscythe Lychguard and Obyron guaranteed hitting turn 1 is pretty deadly, especially given how hard it is to deny them the landing space. To make it even deadlier, you could potentially have 1 or 2 other units that you were able to SUA with the Deceiver at the beginning, which can either shield Zandrekh if the other guy goes first (and doesn't fall for the trap of shooting the C'tan first), or deliver their own punch (I like to bring either Heavy or Rapid Fire weapons here depending on the targets available, as Heavy units won't count as having moved, and Rapid Fire units will be able to easily get into RF range if they do. Double bonus for bringing Mephrit, as you'll also be in half-range for their bonus to AP, but that requires a second detachment.)
I have a fun 2000 points army that revolves around that latter strategy that I'm slowly working on building up.
Edit: oh, I forgot the easiest thing as well; a character with the Veil of Darkness. Duh. Definitely the cheapest and most hassle-free approach.
Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote: First off, take everything I say with a grain of salt. I've never played above a novice level, and a lot of my advice of how to run things doesn't work above a certain level. Normally I'm aware of that and will try to mention it, but often not.
Lychguard M5 does suck. Shieldguard have the toughness to slog it out on their slow walk up the board without dying, but that's still probably not until turn 2 and most likely not until turn 3 that they start actually doing anything and by that point a game is already won or lost.
Scytheguard on the other hand definitely require either a Night Scythe or the Deceiver or even a Deceiver-Zandrekh-Obyron combo list to really pull off. Nephrekh Scytheguard are also decent, you can also use the Nephrekh 1CP strategem to SUA 9" them.
Night Scythe strategy is pretty simple; turn 1 your Night Scythe flies up to 60" to land where you want to drop your Lychguard. At that point, your enemy will either kill your Night Scythe, or just move everything out of charge range, because beginning of your Turn 2, you Invasion Beams in your Lychguard. If they kill your Night Scythe, use 1CP to use Emergency Invasion Beam get your Lychguard in anyway, or run 2 Night Scythes (they're Hard to Hit, so them killing 2 in Turn 1 is unlikely).
The second fun thing about Night Scythes is that they're not actually Transports, which is why I mention running two. Your Lychguard can come out of whichever one survived/seems like a better position at the beginning of 2nd.
Nephrekh is a pretty easy to understand one; 6" Advances will get you a guaranteed 2nd-Turn charge even with 5" move, and might even do better than the SUA 9" will.
The Deceiver combo is a favourite of mine though I have yet to actually try it in person. In it's simplest form, the Deceiver allows you to set up itself and/or D3 Necron units (any of them that are on the battlefield) after all other setup but before the first turn begins, 12" from any enemy models. The downside, is they can't charge.
There's a way to get around that though. If instead of sending in your Lychguard directly, you send in Nemesor Zandrekh, and he then moves towards the enemy, then you use Vargard Obyron's Ghostwalk Mantle to remove him and the Lychguard, and SUA within 6" of Zahndrekh and more than 1" from enemy models. That's right, only 1". That's a guaranteed charge there. If you can't get that close, Advance Zandrekh as well, because Advancing is also done in the Movement phase. This is a super complicated way to do it, but a unit of 10 Warscythe Lychguard and Obyron guaranteed hitting turn 1 is pretty deadly, especially given how hard it is to deny them the landing space. To make it even deadlier, you could potentially have 1 or 2 other units that you were able to SUA with the Deceiver at the beginning, which can either shield Zandrekh if the other guy goes first (and doesn't fall for the trap of shooting the C'tan first), or deliver their own punch (I like to bring either Heavy or Rapid Fire weapons here depending on the targets available, as Heavy units won't count as having moved, and Rapid Fire units will be able to easily get into RF range if they do. Double bonus for bringing Mephrit, as you'll also be in half-range for their bonus to AP, but that requires a second detachment.)
I have a fun 2000 points army that revolves around that latter strategy that I'm slowly working on building up.
Edit: oh, I forgot the easiest thing as well; a character with the Veil of Darkness. Duh. Definitely the cheapest and most hassle-free approach.
By the beta rules I don't think you can 1CP emergency disembark from a shot down night scythe up-field turn 1, it has to survice for turn 2.
Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote: If they kill your Night Scythe, use 1CP to use Emergency Invasion Beam get your Lychguard in anyway, or run 2 Night Scythes (they're Hard to Hit, so them killing 2 in Turn 1 is unlikely).
An experienced player can kill 3 night scythes in one turn without a single shot or single attack.
Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote: If they kill your Night Scythe, use 1CP to use Emergency Invasion Beam get your Lychguard in anyway, or run 2 Night Scythes (they're Hard to Hit, so them killing 2 in Turn 1 is unlikely).
An experienced player can kill 3 night scythes in one turn without a single shot or single attack.
Yes it is possible like you said but not an easy thing to do and impossible to pull that trick on turn 1.
Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote: If they kill your Night Scythe, use 1CP to use Emergency Invasion Beam get your Lychguard in anyway, or run 2 Night Scythes (they're Hard to Hit, so them killing 2 in Turn 1 is unlikely).
An experienced player can kill 3 night scythes in one turn without a single shot or single attack.
Yes it is possible like you said but not an easy thing to do and impossible to pull that trick on turn 1.
How *exactly* does someone do that? Maybe I'm missing the point here. But I need to know for science.
How *exactly* does someone do that? Maybe I'm missing the point here. But I need to know for science.
A flyer has a minimum move, its destroyed when it cant do that. Necron flyers cant hover, this isnt a problem for those who can do that. A flyer can rotate up to 90 degrees and then has to do its minimum move. I cant move the flyer where my models are. I have to keep away more than 1" from enemy models, if i cant do that i cant move, flyer is destroyed. If my opponent moves his models in the way of my flyer, so it cant move its minimum move, its destroyed. If i have to fly off the board the flyer is destroyed.
How *exactly* does someone do that? Maybe I'm missing the point here. But I need to know for science.
A flyer has a minimum move, its destroyed when it cant do that. Necron flyers cant hover, this isnt a problem for those who can do that. A flyer can rotate up to 90 degrees and then has to do its minimum move. I cant move the flyer where my models are. I have to keep away more than 1" from enemy models, if i cant do that i cant move, flyer is destroyed. If my opponent moves his models in the way of my flyer, so it cant move its minimum move, its destroyed. If i have to fly off the board the flyer is destroyed.
But covering that 20-60" gap it can move especially with 90" degree. Turn 1 that's pretty much impossible. If nothing else necron can move along his own DZ. Frankly never seen being destroyed by enemy models ever. Just moving off board. And never ever on turn 1. Turn 3-4 maybe.
The plan is to have the Crypteks castled within the immortals and Lychguard respectively to make best use the bubbles.
The Chronometron Cryptek will use his Veil of Darkness to pop up with the Immortals in a convenient spot and fire away.
The Flying Cryptek can zoom around with the Pretorians.
The Deathmarks deepstrike to either secure an objective or counter enemy deepstrikers/Characters.
The Wraiths wreak havoc in melee or fish for MW with their Beams.
Suggestions and comments are highly appreciated!
Necron characters are overpriced, try and take one Cryptek in three games and two Crypteks in three more games, see how it goes. Rod of Covenant is terrible, transdimensional beamer is bad.
Triarch Praetorians are far stronger than Lychguard if you're not going to Veil up the Lychguard, Praetorians are bad but M5 is hot garbage. You might say that you're willing to Veil them, but then you don't have the option of falling back and shooting or escape with a unit that has been surrounded or grab an objective, you're tying yourself down to make a bad unit less bad. Veiling up Lychguard might be amazing against noobs who don't screen, so your mileage may vary. Proxy and see what works, paint while you collect, it doesn't get easier once you have a 2k collection.
Does....anyone...ever have an issue with that? With a 60 inch potential move....how in the world can they cover...literally the whole board? I gotta say that sounds like a bizarre fringe case vs mega hordes...
Praets are plenty killy. They need DYNASTY CODES...and like...2-3 point drop in price.
iGuy91 wrote: Does....anyone...ever have an issue with that? With a 60 inch potential move....how in the world can they cover...literally the whole board? I gotta say that sounds like a bizarre fringe case vs mega hordes...
Praets are plenty killy. They need DYNASTY CODES...and like...2-3 point drop in price.
I'm fine with them not having the Codes. After all, they operate outside the Dynasties.
In my perfect little world though, they would be fixed like how I want Terminator variants fixed: WS/BS2+, and then their Strategem affects strictly their wound rolls in both the shooting and assault phase.
. Most of the Time my 2 
) and turn two I failed to kill Magnus in a single turn as well even though he only had a 4+ invulnerable save. Turn 4 I used 6 Heavy Destroyers, the abyssal staff, 3 Destroyers, 2 Doomsday Arks (not moving and rapid-firing their small guns) to deal 4 wounds to Magnus with +1 to hit from the Sautekh Stratagem. My opponent was unlucky with his psychic rolls as well, but that just seems like a bit much.
